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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
Ais Hellia
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
49
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Posted - 2014.09.25 16:53:00 -
[331] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:[quote=Yun Kuai] EVE succeeds
So much success lately
"We are looking for a new lead programmer ready to dig into a 10-year old code" |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
49
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Posted - 2014.09.25 16:53:00 -
[332] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
What I wrote
All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do. I don't think I've ever had a ship destroyed while I was on dotlan looking for alternate routes through a danger zone and thus blocked someone from atttacking me... And dojos will allow people to attack you, just one at a time :P (yay humor!) It didn't block people from attacking you in EVE.
No, but it ensured that if someone wanted to try and attack me they would have to find me on my terms and engage me on my terms and not theirs. I am not saying we should reward the player who invests the time and manages to catch me, that aspect will always be in EVE and these dojos wont stop people from ganking freighters, can flipping ratters, and other methods of fighting people who dont want the fight.
The dojo can't be used for mining, ratting, incursions, offgrid boosts, or any other possible abuses. There will still be plenty of people to backstab, manipulate, and gank. There will be one method for one type of engagement and that is the 1v1.
Personally, I think the 1v1 is acceptable for TQ, I like some of the mechanics people have thought of with messing with the dojo while it is deployed, I think if CCP wanted to go larger than 1v1 it should explicitly stay off the TQ server. I look at the dojo as a great way to train on ships, even after 6 years I have no clue what the **** I am doing at times. I would still gladly go out on small roams, I would still PvP in conventional methods, and having this on TQ wouldn't change the fun I'd have flying with my corpmates into repeated oblivion and death.
Anyway,
Meh |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
826
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:54:00 -
[333] - Quote
Most everything has been said already, so I'll just stick with this: No. Remove insurance. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2014.09.25 16:55:00 -
[334] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: You don't change the heart and soul of a game on "might". And in EVE, everyone PVPs, pvp isn't just 'pew'.
Why can't we blob the AT teams then? Why can't we attack people in stations? Why can't we destroy nullsec assets in stations (that ccp will move for you after some months of inactivity)? Why can't we get access to APIs in game and check for alts since it's a way to metagame the pvp? |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8325
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:55:00 -
[335] - Quote
Seamus Donohue wrote:Guys? Read the post. CCP Veritas wrote:2. Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself
{snip}
ThereGÇÖs a personal deployable that you can obtain from item redeption on Duality that when put into space and stocked with ships and modules (itGÇÖs huge), provides players docked in that system with the ability to fight each other with those ships and modules in fair environment. Whoever is deploying this dojo has to shove ships and modules into it. Somebody has to buy or manufacture those ships and modules. The minerals and moon goo to make those ships and modules must come from player activity. All this is is a way for one player to subsidize another player's PvP. Dojos on Duality might have stuff automatically spawned into them but only because it's Duality. CCP Veritas is not proposing that Dojos on Tranquility will have free stuff spawned into them by CCP. Additionally, Veritas explicitly states "Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself", implying that the dojo can be attacked. It's only the deadspace matches that cannot be interfered with. Nobody is proposing bringing Simulator Mode to Tranquility; Simulator Mode is already provided by Singularity and Duality. --- Now, the only concern I have is that if this is deployed to Tranquility, then this can be used as a method to leave a station that is currently camped. You can get your pod and implants out into space, bypassing the station camp, or get a force of pilots out into space and then warp to the station camp and optimals, rather than be forced to either use instant undock bookmarks (or in the case of bubbles, be forced to fight on the station undock spawn point).
"Simulator" isn't the issue, in fact a simulator (while being un-eve like also) would actually be ok because that doesn't mean 'ships in space on TQ that can't be probed down'.
And yes, someone, somehow will find a way to take these things and make CCP regret putting them in. ESS in wormholes and anomalies anoyone?
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Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
201
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Posted - 2014.09.25 16:57:00 -
[336] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
By this logic (as well as some of your previous posts) then wouldn't any program used outside of being logged into the EVE client be a violation of the games core(and founding) principles? I mean by your reasoning, instanced gaming is any situation in which players can interact with game mechanics with zero interference (and risk) from other players.
Jabber lets you play EVE Offline, EVEMon basically give you the advantage for long term skill training and sp optimization. Dotlan provides information on system activity and traffic, allowing you to avoid dangerous systems, EFT allows you to optimize ship fittings without having to physically own the ship, EVE Survival turns PvE into a Prima Game Guide, EVECentral allows you to inspect universe markets as compared to just a region, and yet none of these are made available in the game client, none of these contain an element of risk, and yet every one of these give distinct and significant advantages to players who use them, as compared to the new players.
All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do.
Is anyone else deeply disturbed that the EvE player base is so outraged because they can't interfere with an organized fight. Let's break this down for a moment and assume that the dojo came to support 10 v 10 fights. Now let's get the real perspective: The dojo owner took the time to organize the location, time, and rules. Designed the complete structure and layout of the tournament rounds not limited to ships allowed, timers, WH effects (wouldn't that be fun). They also took all the time to gather and assemble all of the ships + fits. They then spent time broadcasting and gathering enough players who were interested in tourney contest. Then they gathered all of the capital to support prizes upfront. They also set aside a weekend to run the tournament and have gotten commentators involved as well. Finally after all of the planning and coordinating, a group of eve players who caught wind of the twitch stream/news burn over in t1 fit arty ruptures and warp in and ruin the whole tournament in a matter of minutes for some instant gratification lols. But let's not ruin EvE right?
Now don't get me wrong, it would be fun to see it happen once, but after every highsec **** who gets their kicks griefing, ganking, etc has had their fill and then some what's left. Another feature soiled and left unused bc we catered to a few players who need to seek some RL help. --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8330
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:58:00 -
[337] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: Why can't we blob the AT teams then?
AT is an exception, and the only one that should be allowed.
Quote:Why can't we attack people in stations? Because they are docked. Dojos would put people IN SPACE. Everyone in sapce should be subject to non-consensual pvp. This is a core facet of EVE Online.
Quote: Why can't we destroy nullsec assets in stations (that ccp will move for you after some months of inactivity)? Why can't we get access to APIs in game and check for alts since it's a way to metagame the pvp?
These 2 things have nothing to do with this discussion. Stations should be destroyable but I don't even know what thate api crap comes from.
You are trying to find ways to make this make sense in your own head. Problem is that is the only place this idea makes any sense. |
Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
142
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:59:00 -
[338] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do.
Doesn't matter. In high-sec two players can agree to duel and do so in a safe. You have realistically no chance of figuring this out, much less scanning them down and getting to them in time to interfere.
What we can see from this scenario is that the two players who actually want a fair duel cannot be affected by you, nor do they affect you.
The problem with the current scenario is there is no way for two random players to do this without risking 5 logi alts interfering with the fight. There are players who duel like this - which is fine - and players that want a fair duel. A dojo gives the fair players an option to guarantee a fair fight. It does not affect a 3rd party like you, it only affects the ability for an agreeing duel member to interfere via alts or friends. Considering both parties agree not to do this when entering the dojo, this only affects those parties, never you or anyone else.
That is their choice, not yours. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:59:00 -
[339] - Quote
Seamus Donohue wrote: Now, the only concern I have is that if this is deployed to Tranquility, then this can be used as a method to leave a station that is currently camped. You can get your pod and implants out into space, bypassing the station camp, or get a force of pilots out into space and then warp to the station camp and optimals, rather than be forced to either use instant undock bookmarks (or in the case of bubbles, be forced to fight on the station undock spawn point).
Do you also think that having mobile refit/anti-cyno items is bad? It gave people more options and we have different ways to fight, is it wrong? |
Sydon Audeles
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
1
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Posted - 2014.09.25 17:00:00 -
[340] - Quote
Ais Hellia wrote:Sydon Audeles wrote:Ais Hellia wrote:Sydon Audeles wrote: Then you can setup your little tournaments around the deployable, get all that extra data to look at and analyze (and check for people breaking your tournament's rules) You should be able to check the rule requirments BEFORE the fight starts not after or it is a waste of time You can do that now. Have them fly out in their ships to your safe spot, have the "referee" board each ship and check the fits, then they re-board their ships and go to town. I was talking more about seeing if someone flew past a boundary distance and wasn't noticed during the fight, for instance. it takes too much time and you can't check implants boundary violations should be executed as in AT (immediate elimination) what will you do if you notice boundary violations AFTER match fininshed? rematch or what? that takes too much time too and can be unfair to for example surprise setups with their opponents having a lot of time to figure out how to deal with them Well i would like to have a full set of AT tools, not some surrogates with limited abilities
Dojo doesn't do anything about implants either, and someone found to have boundary violated could be easily DQ'd after verifying with CREST if you didn't notice during the fight. For live checking, have your referee pilot act as the centerpoint and anyone who gets over 100km away from him is DQ'd and blapped by his arty maelstrom referee ship (or whatever).
You want full AT tools, but I don't think those should be made available to players, so we're not going to fully agree on this. I suggested a CREST-dump deployable earlier in the thread, but I would contend that everything else as far as rule enforcement is already reasonably doable by players with existing resources. |
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LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
560
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:00:00 -
[341] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
The instant gratification mob are by far the worst crowd to cater to, soon after adding 1v1s they will demand 10v10s. Before long we will find PvP rank systems and then all PvP will happen in the arenas. It has happened time after time after time in the exact same way to every single game that added arenas. We joined EVE because it is not like all of those countless other games.
WE??
Dont speak for me please, I joined to shoot spaceships - which is hard to do lately. Your fault, by the way - blue donut and all that.
If arenas allow my to pew and bypass your blobbing and other null- and low- faggotry, great! |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8330
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:00:00 -
[342] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:
Is anyone else deeply disturbed that the EvE player base is so outraged because they can't interfere with an organized fight.
This game was created with the concept of universal non-consensual pvp as a corner stone. YES people should be outraged at a mechanic that bypasses this cornerstone even if it doesn't outwardly affect them personally. It means the end of the EVE Online original concept.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13316
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:00:00 -
[343] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Seamus Donohue wrote:Guys? Read the post. CCP Veritas wrote:2. Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself
{snip}
ThereGÇÖs a personal deployable that you can obtain from item redeption on Duality that when put into space and stocked with ships and modules (itGÇÖs huge), provides players docked in that system with the ability to fight each other with those ships and modules in fair environment. Whoever is deploying this dojo has to shove ships and modules into it. Somebody has to buy or manufacture those ships and modules. The minerals and moon goo to make those ships and modules must come from player activity. All this is is a way for one player to subsidize another player's PvP. Dojos on Duality might have stuff automatically spawned into them but only because it's Duality. CCP Veritas is not proposing that Dojos on Tranquility will have free stuff spawned into them by CCP. Additionally, Veritas explicitly states "Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself", implying that the dojo can be attacked. It's only the deadspace matches that cannot be interfered with. Nobody is proposing bringing Simulator Mode to Tranquility; Simulator Mode is already provided by Singularity and Duality. --- Now, the only concern I have is that if this is deployed to Tranquility, then this can be used as a method to leave a station that is currently camped. You can get your pod and implants out into space, bypassing the station camp, or get a force of pilots out into space and then warp to the station camp and optimals, rather than be forced to either use instant undock bookmarks (or in the case of bubbles, be forced to fight on the station undock spawn point). "Simulator" isn't the issue, in fact a simulator (while being un-eve like also) would actually be ok because that doesn't mean 'ships in space on TQ that can't be probed down'. And yes, someone, somehow will find a way to take these things and make CCP regret putting them in. ESS in wormholes and anomalies anoyone?
Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Placing a booster alt inside one. Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13316
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:02:00 -
[344] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:
The instant gratification mob are by far the worst crowd to cater to, soon after adding 1v1s they will demand 10v10s. Before long we will find PvP rank systems and then all PvP will happen in the arenas. It has happened time after time after time in the exact same way to every single game that added arenas. We joined EVE because it is not like all of those countless other games.
WE?? Dont speak for me please, I joined to shoot spaceships - which is hard to do lately. Your fault, by the way - blue donut and all that. If arenas allow my to pew and bypass your blobbing and other null- and low- faggotry, great!
All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:04:00 -
[345] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: AT is an exception, and the only one that should be allowed.
"Because I said so."
Despite how popular AT is, despite how popular solo pvp is/was and how much content and new players it added to the game.
Jenn aSide wrote: Because they are docked. Dojos would put people IN SPACE. Everyone in sapce should be subject to non-consensual pvp. This is a core facet of EVE Online.
Cloaked people in safes aren't subject to anything, are you new or something?
Jenn aSide wrote: These 2 things have nothing to do with this discussion. Stations should be destroyable but I don't even know what thate api crap comes from.
You are trying to find ways to make this make sense in your own head. Problem is that is the only place this idea makes any sense.
Using alts is a way to metagame the pvp system, I can use a safe carebear alt in deepnull/hs and you can't do anything to hurt me from my main.
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LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
560
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:04:00 -
[346] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Blocking people from being backstabbing vagrants is taking away from the sandbox.
And that is a bad thing, because....?
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3516
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Posted - 2014.09.25 17:04:00 -
[347] - Quote
Sydon Audeles wrote:As we were discussing this in my alliance IRC, someone brought up this idea as an alternative: Make a deployable object that gives a data-dump of CREST info like we had for the alliance tournament for everything happening within a certain distance of it - say, 200km. To offset the additional computing time/server cost, make it cost Aurum. Then you can setup your little tournaments around the deployable, get all that extra data to look at and analyze (and check for people breaking your tournament's rules) and have fun with, all without changing fundamental EVE mechanics whatsoever. You could also use this as a training tool - setup one of these things, duel someone a few times, then use a tool like null-sec.com's ATXII replays to point out what they did wrong or how they could have handled a situation better.
This moves forward the goal of helping people do cool things with private tournaments or events, but doesn't screw with core EVE ideas or mechanics.
The reason this works for the alliance tournament, and possibly for dojos, is that they are restricted to the maximum number of participants. If a deployable was deployed in a big fleet battle we couldn't do what we do for the alliance tournament. CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @CCP_FoxFour |
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Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2014.09.25 17:04:00 -
[348] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.
All we ask is to be able to destroy your station assets and have access to your alts.
If it's a true sandbox we should be able to, am I right? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13316
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:04:00 -
[349] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote:baltec1 wrote: All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do.
Doesn't matter. In high-sec two players can agree to duel and do so in a safe. You have realistically no chance of figuring this out, much less scanning them down and getting to them in time to interfere. What we can see from this scenario is that the two players who actually want a fair duel cannot be affected by you, nor do they affect you. The problem with the current scenario is there is no way for two random players to do this without risking 5 logi alts interfering with the fight. There are players who duel like this - which is fine - and players that want a fair duel. A dojo gives the fair players an option to guarantee a fair fight. It does not affect a 3rd party like you, it only affects the ability for an agreeing duel member to interfere via alts or friends. Considering both parties agree not to do this when entering the dojo, this only affects those parties, never you or anyone else. That is their choice, not yours.
My choice to blow up their poorly fitted cruiser with a neutron mega is just as valid as yours to engage in a 1v1 honour duel. That's what the sandbox is. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
142
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:05:00 -
[350] - Quote
Quote:Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Neutral Orca.
Quote:Placing a booster alt inside one. Adjust boosts mechanic to not apply outside this area.
Quote:Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails. Could you not do the same with FW sites? And yet no one does it.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13316
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:05:00 -
[351] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.
All we ask is to be able to destroy your station assets and have access to your alts. If it's a true sandbox we should be able to, am I right?
No, your line of argument is as stupid now as it was when you started. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8330
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:06:00 -
[352] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Placing a booster alt inside one. Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails.
Exactly. CCP would have to make links not work inside of them. More work.
And what about people in the station with implants, will the implants be transported outside too? Can you just warp out of the deadspace pocket and BOOM, you are free of a hell camp.
As usual with all naive ideas, the 'supporters' haven't thought it through (hello Dominion SOV all over again, some people said it was stuipd but the supporters, tired of the pos grind, were SURE that Dominion was the fix and the answe to getting small groups to go to null L....O.....L).
Part of me is now hoping CCP bring this to tranquility so when it screws up a lot of things in unintended ways we can link this thread and watch those same supporters NOT reply....
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Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2014.09.25 17:07:00 -
[353] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.
All we ask is to be able to destroy your station assets and have access to your alts. If it's a true sandbox we should be able to, am I right? No, your line of argument is as stupid now as it was when you started.
Thanks, I was using your logic. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13321
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:07:00 -
[354] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote:Quote:Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Neutral Orca. Quote:Placing a booster alt inside one. Adjust boosts mechanic to not apply outside this area. Quote:Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails. Could you not do the same with FW sites? And yet no one does it.
They are hard to set up in low sec and a mostly unknown tactic. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8335
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:08:00 -
[355] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote:Quote:Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Neutral Orca. Quote:Placing a booster alt inside one. Adjust boosts mechanic to not apply outside this area. Quote:Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails. Could you not do the same with FW sites? Alternatively could be blocked by a shield much like a starbase; hit the shield while dueling, you explode (boundary violation). Point here is adjustments can be made to mitigate exploitation.
If you have to damn near re-write the game to fix possible exploits of a deplorable, doesn't that mean the deplorable was a bad idea to begin with?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13321
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Posted - 2014.09.25 17:08:00 -
[356] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:
Thanks, I was using your logic.
Again you use that word while demonstrating a lack of it. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
3097
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:09:00 -
[357] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: logic.
There you go using that word again.
One day you'll figure out what it means, and you'll probably stop posting. "i advice you to go spit on the back of someone else because you are fall on the wrong horse." - Meio Rayliegh |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8335
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:09:00 -
[358] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Blocking people from being backstabbing vagrants is taking away from the sandbox.
And that is a bad thing, because....?
Because this is EVE. *Kicks LUM into death pit*
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Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2014.09.25 17:09:00 -
[359] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote: Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Placing a booster alt inside one. Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails.
Exactly. CCP would have to make links not work inside of them. More work. And what about people in the station with implants, will the implants be transported outside too? Can you just warp out of the deadspace pocket and BOOM, you are free of a hell camp. As usual with all naive ideas, the 'supporters' haven't thought it through (hello Dominion SOV all over again, some people said it was stupid, but the supporters, tired of the pos grind, were SURE that Dominion was the fix and the answer to getting small groups to go to null L....O.....L). Part of me is now hoping CCP bring this to tranquility so when it screws up a lot of things in unintended ways we can link this thread and watch those same supporters NOT reply....
It's not like CCP changed the way they test stuff since then, It's not like they said they will have modules/ship checks before entering.
Oh wait. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
560
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:09:00 -
[360] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.
Yeah, go and reinforce the dojo, or have 10 catalysts ready as i land on the dojo and attempt to enter it. Or join the dojo corp, rise to position of power, then steal the frigates out of the dojo.
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