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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13330
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:37:00 -
[391] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:
Except that you can still gank the non-dojo 1v1, and that player run 1v1s are hard to normalize (implants, mods, neut logis, etc).
We cannot gank them because;
Quote:Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise.
Just because something requires effort on your behalf does not mean I should have my gameplay negetivly impacted. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8339
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:38:00 -
[392] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
If you can have YOUR unfair fights, why can't I have MY fair fights. Whose entitlement do we have to bow to? Why can't we have both?
What you just said is like saying "I know this is WoW, but I like spaceships, why can you have you elves and unicorns but I can't have my Vindicator to kill wild boars?". EVE is built around the concept of non-consensual pvp. You can't have your "consensual only" pvp instances because then EVE effectively ceases being a non-consensual pvp game. You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
That's what "change for the sake of change" people always say. Good change doesn't elicit comments from me because they are good changes. Slow but well thought out progress is always the way forward.
Ignoring one of the founding principles of the game (universal non-consensual pvp in space with the policy exception of noob systems and the SOE arc) is not and cannot ever be sound progress.
EVE must change to survive, but if it has to change it's core concept, then that core concept wasn't good to begin with.
|
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
562
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:38:00 -
[393] - Quote
Cy'ferth wrote:I like the idea of people having their fair fights in eve honestly those who feel eve's unfair nature goes against them i do feel this might make eve's pvp future uncertain.
Because it might encourage people to sit in a station in a queue for pvp (like other mmo's going) and i feel that eve will suffer because of this.
IMO.
Why? When you lose enough rifters to arena PvP, eventually you will have to go out and make some isk.
And you think arenas will be limited to cheap frigs? I think not. How many ravens/megas etc. can you lose before you have to go out and replanish your isk?
You want to arena-pew with blinged stuff? Go farm LP in FW.
You want your flashy T3s? Go do some WH stuff.
You want to simply buy stuff for isk? Go do incursions or null-bear ratting for isk.
Literally nothing changes - its a conflict driver just in a different format. Market will re-adjust, people will still be specializing in different aras of EVE, only instead of SOV wars being primary sink for materiel, it will be arena's.
And suddenly, content still exists. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13330
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:38:00 -
[394] - Quote
Anslo wrote:
You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
If you want instanced arenas why don't you play one of the many many games that has them? Why force them into the one game that doesn't cater to them? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:39:00 -
[395] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
If you can have YOUR unfair fights, why can I have MY fair fights. Whose entitlement do we have to bow to? Why can't we have both?
We do have both right now. You can run 1v1s and I can backstab you and vice versa. This removes my option to backstab you (and adds a bunch of underhand uses a few of which I pointed out)
The potential abuses you mentioned is a whole other can of worms that isn't really worth getting into because if this thing ever gets beyond its first day of existence, they are things that CCP would flesh out with the help of the community.
Just because I have the option of backstabbing you does not mean that I subjectively value doing so as my preferred way to engage in 1v1 PvP. The added hassle of worrying about neutral logi alts (my own or yours) is not worth my time and organization, thus depriving me of the content of 1v1 PvP. This seems like an alternative to that.
I will say again, I only want this in the scope of 1v1. I want people to be able to mess with the dojo, I don't want people to abuse the deadspace area, I think it is still EVE-like to have the ships destroyed.
If you don't like it, don't use it. If you like it, use it. What wrong with having that option?
Remember when people said the industry changes would ruin EVE? Those were some fun threads. Speaking of which, Im surprised I haven't seen Dinnsdale Pirannah, the resident doomsayer. |
Schneevva
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:39:00 -
[396] - Quote
Wow I mean really? Could you think of a more clever way to suck all the fun out of solo pvp? |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:40:00 -
[397] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
Except that you can still gank the non-dojo 1v1, and that player run 1v1s are hard to normalize (implants, mods, neut logis, etc).
We cannot gank them because; Quote:Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise. Just because something requires effort on your behalf does not mean I should have my gameplay negetivly impacted.
People that look for fair fights are negatively impacted by your gameplay too.
Again, you complain that they are adding options to the game because it's less targets for you if you don't adapt to the change.
Adapt or die, HTFU like we say in Eve Online. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:41:00 -
[398] - Quote
Schneevva wrote:Wow I mean really? Could you think of a more clever way to suck all the fun out of solo pvp?
Most of the fun from solo pvp come from fighting outnumbered, so nope it doesn't. |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:43:00 -
[399] - Quote
That is not a LAW that is just a link to the evonline website. Please link this LAW to which you refer.
Also Baltec, no one is FORCING EVE to have these arenas. They were introduced on a test server less than 24 hours ago. The people here arguing with you are the people who are saying "We dont mind of this" or "We think this would be fun" I dont think there has been a single post on this thread to the tune of:
"YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THESE CHANGES OR EVE IS FOREVER RUINED"
Compare and contrast... |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13330
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:43:00 -
[400] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:
The potential abuses you mentioned is a whole other can of worms that isn't really worth getting into because if this thing ever gets beyond its first day of existence, they are things that CCP would flesh out with the help of the community.
Just because I have the option of backstabbing you does not mean that I subjectively value doing so as my preferred way to engage in 1v1 PvP. The added hassle of worrying about neutral logi alts (my own or yours) is not worth my time and organization, thus depriving me of the content of 1v1 PvP. This seems like an alternative to that.
I will say again, I only want this in the scope of 1v1. I want people to be able to mess with the dojo, I don't want people to abuse the deadspace area, I think it is still EVE-like to have the ships destroyed.
If you don't like it, don't use it. If you like it, use it. What wrong with having that option?
Remember when people said the industry changes would ruin EVE? Those were some fun threads. Speaking of which, Im surprised I haven't seen Dinnsdale Pirannah, the resident doomsayer.
He would be on your side, anything that reduces non-consensual pvp is good in his eyes.
My issue is with the enforced instance, I should not be barred for getting into it. Make it hard to do sure but not stopped entirely. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8339
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:44:00 -
[401] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
If you can have YOUR unfair fights, why can't I have MY fair fights. Whose entitlement do we have to bow to? Why can't we have both?
What you just said is like saying "I know this is WoW, but I like spaceships, why can you have you elves and unicorns but I can't have my Vindicator to kill wild boars?". EVE is built around the concept of non-consensual pvp. You can't have your "consensual only" pvp instances because then EVE effectively ceases being a non-consensual pvp game. Using your flawed logic : EVE is built around the concept of bad POS management, you can't have your "nice POS management" instances because then EVE effectively ceases being a bad POS management game.
That grasping for straws is dumb. Non-consensual pvp is a founding, core principle. POSes aren't.
Everything in EVE should evolve WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK of it's core philosophy. Key points of that philosophy are :
-Universal Non-Consensual pvp in space (except in noob systems and the Sisters of EVE arc)
-Meaningful Death penalty (ie things can be actual destroyed)
-'Single Shard' universe (Chinese Eve notwithstanding)
As long as those 3 things aren't screwed with, we can talk about different additions or balance issues. But something that violates any aspect of the core goes right out. Dojos (as presented) are as bad a violation of the core philosophy of EVE online as would be isk and material transfers from Singularity to Tranquility or "plex for pvp invulnerability" would be.
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5893
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:44:00 -
[402] - Quote
Fair points all around.
Speaking practically, once all loopholes for abuse have been closed, the practical outcome of this would be....
Worst Case Scenario: The new pilots you get won't be completely clueless about combat fittings, and anxiety ridden about losing a ship... thus making your job of showing them how to actually PVP in EVE a little bit easier. Less time lost explaining the basics, less whining, less irritation for you.
Best Case Scenario: You'll see a lot more pilots in space that have gotten cocky (because they've had some success in the arena) and think they really do know how to PVP and fit accordingly, and are much more willing to commit to a fight than previously. More fights, more loot, more challenge, more fun.
When this was first discussed years ago I put forth the opinion that if this was ever attempted it would have to be handled carefully... with graphical and game mechanic elements that strictly divorced the players sense that they were fighting with real ships in space. It HAD to be presented as a high tech training simulator in EVE, with zero tangible profit or loss for engaging in its use.
Well, they've gotten part of it right... they just didn't go quite far enough with the concept. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13330
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:44:00 -
[403] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:That is not a LAW that is just a link to the evonline website. Please link this LAW to which you refer.
Also Baltec, no one is FORCING EVE to have these arenas. They were introduced on a test server less than 24 hours ago. The people here arguing with you are the people who are saying "We dont mind of this" or "We think this would be fun" I dont think there has been a single post on this thread to the tune of:
"YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THESE CHANGES OR EVE IS FOREVER RUINED"
Compare and contrast...
If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8339
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:46:00 -
[404] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:
You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
If you want instanced arenas why don't you play one of the many many games that has them? Why force them into the one game that doesn't cater to them?
Because all must be assimilated by the Carebear Borg (CareBorg?)! Resistance is infantile!
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Anslo
Scope Works
13945
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:46:00 -
[405] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:
You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
If you want instanced arenas why don't you play one of the many many games that has them? Why force them into the one game that doesn't cater to them?
I never said anything about whether I wanted something or not, now did I?
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LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
563
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:48:00 -
[406] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me.
Then quit. |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
52
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:49:00 -
[407] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
That grasping for straws is dumb. Non-consensual pvp is a founding, core principle. POSes aren't.
Everything in EVE should evolve WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK of it's core philosophy. Key points of that philosophy are :
-Universal Non-Consensual pvp in space (except in noob systems and the Sisters of EVE arc)
-Meaningful Death penalty (ie things can be actual destroyed)
-'Single Shard' universe (Chinese Eve notwithstanding)
As long as those 3 things aren't screwed with, we can talk about different additions or balance issues. But something that violates any aspect of the core goes right out. Dojos (as presented) are as bad a violation of the core philosophy of EVE online as would be isk and material transfers from Singularity to Tranquility or "plex for pvp invulnerability" would be.
Philosophy 1: (With exceptions)
Philosophy 2: (Except for dead bumped Titans)
Philosophy 3: (With exceptions)
And my favorite: NO Instanced Arenas (Except for Alliance Tournament and New Eden Open)
And I can't seem to find where CCP states what their underlying LAWS and core philosophies are... Ill keep looking though.
Also, if you're so against these dojos and youre resting so much on this universal PvP motif, where is your thread demanding Universal Non-consensual PvP in noob systems, the thread about bomb launchers in high sec, of and the one about mobile bubbles outside of nullsec.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13333
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:49:00 -
[408] - Quote
Anslo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:
You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
If you want instanced arenas why don't you play one of the many many games that has them? Why force them into the one game that doesn't cater to them? I never said anything about whether I wanted something or not, now did I?
Just pointing out that EVE has differentiated itself from every other MMO by not doing arenas. Many people do come here for that very reason. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Escobar Slim III
GOLDIE LOOKIN ATRON Neo-Bushido Movement
85
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:49:00 -
[409] - Quote
I THINK SOME PEOPLE WHO DONT EVEN HAVE SCANS CANT COMPLAIN THAT CCP WANT TO CHANGE TO MAKE SOME GAMETIME QUICKER AND FOR PVP 1V1 IN SPECIAL SPACE? IS NOT MUCH TOO ASK.
PERSONALLY THINK AS LONG AS THE SHIP IS SAFE FROM PENETRATION AND THE TIMER IS FOR TWO DAYS TO GIVE CHANCE TO MOVE. WILL HAVE TO SEE HARD DATA FIRST.
I COULD SEE POTENTIAL OF THIS BEING AS A TRAVELLING CIRCUS TYPE PVP FEATURE OF LIKE A WHEEL OF DEATH WHERE BIKE RIDERS GET CHANCE TO ENTER THAT WHEEL THING BUT INSTEAD OF BIKES THEY PVP SHIPS AND THEN THEY FIGHT WITH 1V1 AND NO LINKS AND STUFF LIKE NO HONORE FIGHTERS WHO COME IN AND DESTRYOY 1V1 PVP AND SOLO.
SO POTENTIALLY GOOD YES BUT NEED TO SEE. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5893
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:50:00 -
[410] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:
You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
If you want instanced arenas why don't you play one of the many many games that has them? Why force them into the one game that doesn't cater to them? Because all must be assimilated by the Carebear Borg (CareBorg?)! Resistance is infantile!
I really think you'll find a large number of non CareBorgs using them as well, just for different reasons. They'd actually be pretty handy for certain things. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13333
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:51:00 -
[411] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:
If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me.
Then quit.
I wonder, why are you even here?
You want to change everything about EVE to be just like every other game out there. Why beg and plead to change EVE rather than play those games? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8340
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:51:00 -
[412] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
That grasping for straws is dumb. Non-consensual pvp is a founding, core principle. POSes aren't.
Everything in EVE should evolve WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK of it's core philosophy. Key points of that philosophy are :
-Universal Non-Consensual pvp in space (except in noob systems and the Sisters of EVE arc)
-Meaningful Death penalty (ie things can be actual destroyed)
-'Single Shard' universe (Chinese Eve notwithstanding)
As long as those 3 things aren't screwed with, we can talk about different additions or balance issues. But something that violates any aspect of the core goes right out. Dojos (as presented) are as bad a violation of the core philosophy of EVE online as would be isk and material transfers from Singularity to Tranquility or "plex for pvp invulnerability" would be.
Philosophy 1: (With exceptions) Philosophy 2: (Except for dead bumped Titans) Philosophy 3: (With exceptions) And my favorite: NO Instanced Arenas (Except for Alliance Tournament and New Eden Open) And I can't seem to find where CCP states what their underlying LAWS and core philosophies are... Ill keep looking though. Also, if you're so against these dojos and youre resting so much on this universal PvP motif, where is your thread demanding Universal Non-consensual PvP in noob systems, the thread about bomb launchers in high sec, of and the one about mobile bubbles outside of nullsec.
i get it, i really do. you don't care about what EVE is.
Well, i do, sorry.
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Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
52
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:51:00 -
[413] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:That is not a LAW that is just a link to the evonline website. Please link this LAW to which you refer.
Also Baltec, no one is FORCING EVE to have these arenas. They were introduced on a test server less than 24 hours ago. The people here arguing with you are the people who are saying "We dont mind of this" or "We think this would be fun" I dont think there has been a single post on this thread to the tune of:
"YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THESE CHANGES OR EVE IS FOREVER RUINED"
Compare and contrast... If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me.
Explain, because that made no sense. Content that is available that you choose not to use is not content that is forced upon you. Its an option, not a demand.
I don't do reverse engineering or inventions, but that doesn't mean I despise people who do t2 and t3 production, I in no way feel they are "Forced" upon me and I in no way want to limit others from pursuing that method of gameplay. If they have fun with it, great. I find my fun in EVE elsewhere. |
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
230
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:51:00 -
[414] - Quote
Escobar Slim III wrote:I THINK SOME PEOPLE WHO DONT EVEN HAVE SCANS CANT COMPLAIN THAT CCP WANT TO CHANGE TO MAKE SOME GAMETIME QUICKER AND FOR PVP 1V1 IN SPECIAL SPACE? IS NOT MUCH TOO ASK.
PERSONALLY THINK AS LONG AS THE SHIP IS SAFE FROM PENETRATION AND THE TIMER IS FOR TWO DAYS TO GIVE CHANCE TO MOVE. WILL HAVE TO SEE HARD DATA FIRST.
I COULD SEE POTENTIAL OF THIS BEING AS A TRAVELLING CIRCUS TYPE PVP FEATURE OF LIKE A WHEEL OF DEATH WHERE BIKE RIDERS GET CHANCE TO ENTER THAT WHEEL THING BUT INSTEAD OF BIKES THEY PVP SHIPS AND THEN THEY FIGHT WITH 1V1 AND NO LINKS AND STUFF LIKE NO HONORE FIGHTERS WHO COME IN AND DESTRYOY 1V1 PVP AND SOLO.
SO POTENTIALLY GOOD YES BUT NEED TO SEE. Why are you shouting? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13333
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:52:00 -
[415] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:
I really think you'll find a large number of non CareBorgs using them as well, just for different reasons. They'd actually be pretty handy for certain things.
Thats the fear. Why go hunting for solo pvp when you can push a button to get it? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
ArchAngael
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
11
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:53:00 -
[416] - Quote
My main concern with this idea is that the more popular it is, the more Eve suffers. It seems like a lose/lose to me.
Let's say a corp of people log on for the night. They have to choose: do they go for a roam or fill up the dojo with ships and have a deathmatch or whatever. If they choose the former, that's one less roaming fleet out for others to encounter and have a good fight. Those other roaming fleets encounter fewer other fleets because they are all busy dojo'ing, so they decide to dojo too. Sooner or later, everyone is dojo'ing and no one is roaming. If anyone wants to roam, they soon get bored with it because there is no one to fight. Feature success, but a major cornerstone of Eve has been effectively eliminated.
Alternatively, they might not be very fun, so no one really uses them outside rare/specialized circumstances. In that case, the time spent developing them could have been spent better elsewhere. Recruiter for Supreme Mathematics (affiliated with Stay Frosty)
Take my Eve Online Ship identification quiz at http://fenjaylabs.com/EveShipIdQuiz |
Bethamene
Casalt Corp CAStabouts
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:53:00 -
[417] - Quote
didn't read the whole thread but maybe if the dojo dropped the deadspace pockets (and let the people in them know it) as soon as they were reinforced, therefore letting people scan the participants down, then we'd have the right amount of sand in the sandbox? |
Anslo
Scope Works
13945
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:53:00 -
[418] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:
You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
If you want instanced arenas why don't you play one of the many many games that has them? Why force them into the one game that doesn't cater to them? I never said anything about whether I wanted something or not, now did I? Just pointing out that EVE has differentiated itself from every other MMO by not doing arenas. Many people do come here for that very reason. And I'm just pointing out that staying somewhere with features, proposed or otherwise, that you dislike seems a bit silly.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8340
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:54:00 -
[419] - Quote
Bethamene wrote:didn't read the whole thread but maybe if the dojo dropped the deadspace pockets (and let the people in them know it) as soon as they were reinforced, therefore letting people scan the participants down, then we'd have the right amount of sand in the sandbox?
This would be acceptable.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13333
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:54:00 -
[420] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:That is not a LAW that is just a link to the evonline website. Please link this LAW to which you refer.
Also Baltec, no one is FORCING EVE to have these arenas. They were introduced on a test server less than 24 hours ago. The people here arguing with you are the people who are saying "We dont mind of this" or "We think this would be fun" I dont think there has been a single post on this thread to the tune of:
"YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THESE CHANGES OR EVE IS FOREVER RUINED"
Compare and contrast... If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me. Explain, because that made no sense. Content that is available that you choose not to use is not content that is forced upon you. Its an option, not a demand. I don't do reverse engineering or inventions, but that doesn't mean I despise people who do t2 and t3 production, I in no way feel they are "Forced" upon me and I in no way want to limit others from pursuing that method of gameplay. If they have fun with it, great. I find my fun in EVE elsewhere.
In every game that has added arenas the same exact thing has happened.
People join the arena, fewer people are out to fight with so more people join the arena to get the fights. The more this goes on the more end up in the arena. Soon you wind up with near everyone in the arena pushing a button for instant pvp and pvp in the wider world is dead. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
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