Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 40 .. 40 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
1027
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Greetings Spaceship Fighting Enthusiasts,
Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? Well, have I got the extremely rough prototype for you to try out on Duality! Introducing: Dojos!
As immortalized in the coolest video ever, IGÇÖve done a lot of programming for EVE tournaments over the past couple years, so when I found myself with a couple months of spare time, we thought itGÇÖd be a good idea for me to take a stab at seeing what kind of experience I could craft around that style of gameplay while staying true to the sandbox of EVE.
There are four strong guiding principles that I applied while doing this:
- Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise.
- Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself
- We should cater as much as possible to the participant that wants a quick, easy PvP fix.
- Players should run the whole thing, with the game providing no economic value to participants nor organizers
So, some details on what the prototype turned out to be. ThereGÇÖs a personal deployable that you can obtain from item redeption on Duality that when put into space and stocked with ships and modules (itGÇÖs huge), provides players docked in that system with the ability to fight each other with those ships and modules in fair environment. ItGÇÖs currently limited to 1 pilot on each side, and ships worth 4 points or less given the AT-XII points values.
Players on Duality can find dojos to fight at through the extremely aptly labeled GÇ£CalculatorGÇ¥ entry in the GÇ£BusinessGÇ¥ area of the Neocom. You need to be calculating to win! Turns out itGÇÖs easier to copy another Neocom entryGÇÖs stuff than to make your own. ItGÇÖs that kind of prototype folks. Anyway, hereGÇÖs a look at the screen that awaits the intrepid dojo fighter:
On the left here youGÇÖve got a breakdown of all the types of ships/modules/ammo/whatever that are stocked in the dojo ready for use. On the left, youGÇÖve got all of your personal and corporation fittings with handy XGÇÖs or check marks depending on if all of the types used in the fitting are available in the dojo. Highlight one thatGÇÖs fully available, hit GÇ£Select FittingGÇ¥, and youGÇÖll notice in the bottom left your entry in your team listing now shows what ship youGÇÖve picked. It would have a button that shows the full fitting but I havenGÇÖt gotten around to that yet. From there, hit GÇ£Ready!GÇ¥ and youGÇÖre off to the worldGÇÖs worst matchmaking!
Once matched up with another player in the dojo, youGÇÖre both whisked away directly from station to your ships, assembled from the items in the dojo, in a deadspace pocket placed randomly in space thatGÇÖs guarded from people warping to it - theyGÇÖll warp to the dojo deployable if they try.
YouGÇÖll need to load up ammo because IGÇÖve had some problems doing that automatically, but itGÇÖs a fine way to spend the 40 second pre-game time. YouGÇÖll also quickly notice that IGÇÖve dumped you directly in the center of the fight area, because I didn't implement a range selector. I probably should have done that. Oh well.
I did of course implement boundary violations at the customary 125km. My priorities are clear.
I think thatGÇÖs enough words about it. If this looks interesting to you, hop on over to Duality and take a spin. Instructions on how to do that are right over here. IGÇÖve set up an extremely simple dojo in FD-MLJ, but IGÇÖm sure someone who knows 1-1s way better than I do will set up a well-stocked dojo that will satisfy all your frigate fighting fantasies. If your account is inactive on Duality, post on over here and it'll get take care of maybe.
If youGÇÖve got ideas about how it could be better, or different points/pilot count combinations to try, IGÇÖm all ears. If you think this is a terrible idea, I look forward to your well-reasoned arguments. In either case hit it up quick GÇÿcause come Friday night I turn into a pumpkin.
LetGÇÖs have some fun killing each other repeatedly, ~CCP Veritas CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online |
|
Aakkonen
The 0rigin Illusion of Solitude
65
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sounds very cool feature, gonna check it out :D have a like. Bad Jokes since -09.... Fly Safe! o7 |
Anthar Thebess
704
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Can we link this to SOV timers, wining guy wins the timer ^^ Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption Support Needed : Faction Crystal Changes |
Michal Jita
Lords Of The Universe
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
Is that a project that is possible going to be on TQ sometime in future?
Might be liable to abuse in some wicked ways. |
Aakkonen
The 0rigin Illusion of Solitude
65
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Michal Jita wrote:Is that a project that is possible going to be on TQ sometime in future?
Might be liable to abuse in some wicked ways.
thats prolly it stays in duality (I hope) it could be cool on SiSi though... Bad Jokes since -09.... Fly Safe! o7 |
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
374
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
In b4 "THIS NEEDS TO GIVE A GLADIATOR TITLE". |
Noriko Mai
1525
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Woooooooooooooot? Will try asap! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
elissa ferman
Jaeger Bombers
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Question: Loosing a ship AND getting podded included? I would not like to see a thing like the simulator in Wingcommander in the game. I want all the pew pew to be the exiting one where you fly your multi million/billion ship to space and fear being podded. And I would fear that these situations get less and less if people can hide in sideffect free PVP, although it would raise the communities PVP Skills.
Just my 2 cents. As always: Let the features come ;)
|
Precision Zero
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Where is the dislike button? |
|
CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2423
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Precision Zero wrote:Where is the dislike button?
I think it starts to display once you've actually tried the feature CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
|
|
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1121
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
This has a considerable amount of promise and I know I will be popping onto Duality to have a play around with these things.
To all who may be bemoan the end of consensual TQ pvp, note that this is a prototype, on a server that "doesnt matter", and may not ever make it past being a thing on duality. RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
Winthorp
2741
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Precision Zero wrote:Where is the dislike button?
THIS.
I can't believe this is happening actually. Am very disappoint.
The slippery slope has begun... |
Archetype 66
Epsilon Lyr Nulli Secunda
166
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Is this your parting gift CCP veritas ?
Vincit Omnia Veritas |
El Space Mariachi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
148
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
"aaaaaah instances!!!!!!!!!!" - eve playerbase
I hope this rolls out on TQ so I can abuse it and send link alts to unprobable deadspace pockets in a random system gay gamers for jesus |
Baali Tekitsu
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
640
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
#spartan RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
400
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Stuff of Win and Awesome
One question: Is this limited to low/null sec or can it be deployed in high sec as well? Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Dave Stark
6966
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 10:59:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Precision Zero wrote:Where is the dislike button? I think it starts to display once you've actually tried the feature
it doesn't matter how good dojos are, it really shouldn't be in eve to begin with.
the premise is dislikable and no amount of "awesome features" will change that, i'd wager. note: this is sort of the opposite of burner missions. good premise with poor implimentation. this is a poor premise that's probably going to be introduced well... the irony. |
Aram Kachaturian
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
99
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
Less gaming contents, more clothes and jewels for the store plz. Official Poster:-áhttp://i.imgur.com/oTdKSTi.jpg (Limited stock, contact me to order) |
Tetsel
Heretic Army
124
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Woot, EVE's finally becoming a real MMO (at least on duality) with instance and battle arena !!! AWWW YEAH !!!
Next announcement: 5vs5 battle arena instance MOBA Style IN SAPCE, Riot buy CCP.
Tin foil hat ON Loyal servent to Mother Amamake. @EVE_Tetsel |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
1016
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
AWESOME!
Sleep tight sweet prince Veritas :( You will be missed deeply. German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
|
Sala Cameron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
189
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
sounds neat, will test out later. @sala_cameron |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
897
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
can you put in a bulls-eye with Rise's face on it too shoot please?
can you tell I'm still miffed at his eagle hating ways Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please |
Infrequent
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
I can see this replacing highsec duels, or just being a way to mess around on Sisi, either way +1 and let the bitter vet "slippery slope" tears commence, actually it seems they've already begun since people seem to fail to understand that this ISN'T ON TQ. |
dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1227
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship?
is this really the crowd you think should be rewarded?, do you really think sugar coated bullshit pvp is going to add anything to the sandbox? I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
140
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
Good. Instanced combat as an option is a very good inclusion into the game.
The dueling system is a fail because of the lack of guarantee of a fair fight, a "duel" by definition is between two entities. This new feature allows this to be possible for the first time, which is a breathe of fresh air for many players.
It's funny how the naysayers never claim that the Alliance Tournament doesn't belong in EVE. Like as if that isn't the same thing, with the exception that it's organized by CCP instead of members.
If two members want to engage in combat with no chance of outside interference, that is their choice. If a third person has a problem with this, don't use the system. Why should they have the right to control how two other entities play the game? Are they affected by this? No.
The only people who are affected by this are those who are used to duel baiting and will see less action as a result. In essence, players that don't like to fight fair. That's fine, go to lowsec or nullsec and fight dirty. Don't take our option to play fair with one another away because you don't like to chance losing a ship, hence your 5 logistics alt parked in station.
+1 |
Varesk
Origin. Black Legion.
592
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
So you want to make an Instance in Eve which allows two player to fight. I don't understand why this is even in development. This idea is everything that Eve isn't. Eve isn't fair, Eve isn't safe. Its one server where anyone can shoot anyone. You are basically taking one of the core values of the game and smashing it with a Theme park MMO hammer.
|
Winthorp
2742
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
Infrequent wrote:I can see this replacing highsec duels, or just being a way to mess around on Sisi, either way +1 and let the bitter vet "slippery slope" tears commence, actually it seems they've already begun since people seem to fail to understand that this ISN'T ON TQ.
You fail to grasp the concept of slippery slope when you say it isn't on TQ......
Is it people with your intelligence this feature will cater for i wonder? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3876
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
This isn't on TQ. However, long term, it may be. (Note the may.)
This isn't a way to get rid of non-consensual PvP. It's a way to let people have consensual fights in a place where loss is meaningful.
There's an appetite for it, after all. (See RvB, for example).
As for 'slippery slope', that's an argument that's very hard to go against. Without a time machine, to look into the future, to see if anything has changed. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
1016
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
dexington wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? is this really the crowd you think should be rewarded?, do you really think sugar coated bullshit pvp is going to add anything to the sandbox?
I see this as a low entry tournament environment, and I for one can't see AT or NEO as sugar coated bullshit pvp. German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
Varesk
Origin. Black Legion.
593
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:16:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Precision Zero wrote:Where is the dislike button? I think it starts to display once you've actually tried the feature
why try a feature that has no reason even being in a prototype stage. Eve isn't an instanced theme park mmo. |
|
Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
141
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:17:00 -
[31] - Quote
Varesk wrote: So you want to make an Instance in Eve which allows two player to fight. I don't understand why this is even in development. This idea is everything that Eve isn't. Eve isn't fair, Eve isn't safe. Its one server where anyone can shoot anyone. You are basically taking one of the core values of the game and smashing it with a Theme park MMO hammer.
Reminds me of the same argument Americans use whenever new laws are enacted.
"Some guy 300 years ago created a set of rules, how dare we even consider breaking those rules!"
Ideas evolve. This doesn't take away a single facet of the game, it simply adds the ability for two willing parties to engage one another without the chance of trickery.
One might argue this separates them from the EVE universe and so another person - unrelated - would not have the ability to interfere if he so pleased. This is wishful thinking. Two parties can already warp to a safe and engage in a duel, thus not allowing anyone else to realistically interfere.
All this does is removes the ability for one of the parties to use trickery in gaining an advantage. That is something they are agreeing to, which is their right.
Stop trying to force us to play by your ideas, when nothing we are doing is affecting you. |
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
1038
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:17:00 -
[32] - Quote
Arline Kley wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Stuff of Win and Awesome One question: Is this limited to low/null sec or can it be deployed in high sec as well? I didn't put any restrictions on it, but I've only tested it in null systems. You might get concorded in a match in highsec now that I think about it. Probably a bad idea to do that.
I've set up moveme to send folks to station in FD-MLJ, just join the channel "moveme" and say "moveme". CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online |
|
Dave Stark
6966
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
tournament pvp is a nice distraction once a year. however when that kind of format is the staple of eve, i think we'll have a problem.
in wow nobody ever left the capital city; there was no reason to. now imagine if nobody ever bothered undocking anymore because they could get pvp on demand by pressing a button.
sure you might make pvp more accessible to a few more people... but at what cost to the actual game if nobody's bothering to undock and actually *play* it? |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
192
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:17:00 -
[34] - Quote
This should be pretty epic and will lead to a whole list of player run events, gambling, debauchery, and what have you. +1 for listening to the players and +1 when this gets implemented and flushed out.
Things to already build on and consider: -Ability to set prizes -Ability to ban ship types -Maximum 10 v 10 fights -Betting -3rd party viewing -Allow haulers to dock at the structure and drop off ships -Allow courier contracts to be assigned to a dojo
Now, if only we can tie SOV into this, as someone already mentioned, "gladiator style" so when there's a stalemate, i.e. big blue doughnut, things can be settled like men
Question for the aesthetics of this: is this just going to be a tiny little blip in space like the MD or MTU? -Have you considered making this a giant superstructure of sorts that has to be built in space off a planet. I mean it is a 125km sphere radius of doom, so the thing is massive. You could have some special designs for each faction given their flavor (blood raider would have skulls and offering tables littering the structure's exterior or a corporate, modernist Caldari style structure, etc). Consider a giant ball that uses a bubble's sphere of effect to mark the grid with the structures top and bottom "generating" the sphere (will find a picture or make a quick design later)
This would allow them to be built in highsec, destroyable through a wardec, and limited to 1-2 per system. Lowsec/nullsec could have it's own style (more grandiose or run down) and be attackable at will. Allow for a few mini timers like a POS given the structure's size and the contents it would hold --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Madbuster73
V0LTA Triumvirate.
123
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:20:00 -
[35] - Quote
No, please dont make EvE a themepark..... This is against everything that EvE stands for.
We already have the duel option, AND we have RvB.
We dont need controlled environments.
Keep it on Sisi or Duality, but putting it on TQ is just a big joke.
|
Varesk
Origin. Black Legion.
593
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:21:00 -
[36] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:
This isn't a way to get rid of non-consensual PvP. It's a way to let people have consensual fights in a place where loss is meaningful.
There's an appetite for it, after all. (See RvB, for example).
Yes it is a way to get rid of it. The two pilots end up in an instance on TQ. If you want to do this, go on the TEST server or find a SS. Eve is about risks, and this take a lot of the risk out of Eve.
Red vs. Blue is doing it right, if i come across a red dude shooting a blue dude, i can lock and shoot one or rep the other. |
Masao Kurata
Z List
78
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:21:00 -
[37] - Quote
If you ever introduce this to TQ you will literally have killed EVE. This is completely anti-sandbox, every fight on TQ except for AT has to allow any dirty tactics and third party interference. Specifically this would be the end of all station dueling and the end of most rvb activities for a start. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
6610
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:24:00 -
[38] - Quote
Infrequent wrote:I can see this replacing highsec duels, or just being a way to mess around on Sisi, either way +1 and let the bitter vet "slippery slope" tears commence, actually it seems they've already begun since people seem to fail to understand that this ISN'T ON TQ. If this was an idea proposed by a random EVE player, you'd have a point. It isn't though. It's a fully functioning prototype made by CCP and is clearly introduced to gauge the community response before committing to adding arenas to EVE. The things shown to lead to the decline of world PvP in other MMOs. Also CCP themselves have always stated they don't usually commit to developing new systems just for test servers, since they can't justify spending that work on few hundred testers when it could be used to improve the game for tens of thousands. I'd say there is certainly a cause for concern over this. Those concerns might not end up manifesting to real threats, but now is the time to express them.
I'd say the methods possible for outsiders to influence the arenas determine whether this is a cool addition to the game or an abomination in the sandbox that needs to be cleansed with fire. From the initial glance it seems to avoid the worst pitfalls, so I'll go into the wait-and-see -mode until the project progresses further. |
Garmon
Gods Holy Light Bringing You're Penance HYDRA RELOADED
338
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:28:00 -
[39] - Quote
Awesome post Veritas.
But this thread makes me very sad, for as long as I can remember these forums have been plagued by complete ******* retards
I like Duncan |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
62
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:29:00 -
[40] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:If you ever introduce this to TQ you will literally have killed EVE. This is completely anti-sandbox
this is a little extreme however i agree keep it of TQ so long as it never makes it there this is a cool idea |
|
Niraia
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
238
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:29:00 -
[41] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship?
It's easier to find fights when more people are out there looking for them. Cool idea, but please don't add this to TQ
Niraia EVE Online Hold'Em |
Varesk
Origin. Black Legion.
593
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:30:00 -
[42] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote:Varesk wrote: So you want to make an Instance in Eve which allows two player to fight. I don't understand why this is even in development. This idea is everything that Eve isn't. Eve isn't fair, Eve isn't safe. Its one server where anyone can shoot anyone. You are basically taking one of the core values of the game and smashing it with a Theme park MMO hammer.
Reminds me of the same argument Americans use whenever new laws are enacted. "Some guy 300 years ago created a set of rules, how dare we even consider breaking those rules!"Ideas evolve. This doesn't take away a single facet of the game, it simply adds the ability for two willing parties to engage one another without the chance of trickery. One might argue this separates them from the EVE universe and so another person - unrelated - would not have the ability to interfere if he so pleased. This is wishful thinking. Two parties can already warp to a safe and engage in a duel, thus not allowing anyone else to realistically interfere. All this does is removes the ability for one of the parties to use trickery in gaining an advantage. That is something they are agreeing to, which is their right. Stop trying to force us to play by your ideas, when nothing we are doing is affecting you.
First of all, Your slander against "Americans" is uncalled for. This isnt a country vs. country thing. This is a core vaule of Eve being changed. Eve isnt an "Instanced game". Eve is a single shard server where anyone can do anything to anyone. If you add an "Instance" to Eve, you are taking one of the very unique things about this game away from it.
There are already options in this game for 1v1 combat. The tools are there for the game to remain a single sharded universe where if i choose, i can jump in to someones fight and give them another KM or blow them both up.
Sorry you cant handle the harsh universe that is New Eden.
|
Noriko Mai
1525
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:31:00 -
[43] - Quote
I can't use offgrid booster *mimimimi* I can't have a friend rep me in a 1v1 *mimimimim* I can't blob a frig with 10 Supers *mimimimi*
You guys are soo 1337... -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
Alstevar Eastern
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:32:00 -
[44] - Quote
The first idea is good but ;
"a deadspace pocket placed randomly in space thatGÇÖs guarded from people warping to it"
If no other one can come in, why they need to be in the server space where other players can try to warp on it ? Just make something like a fair holodeck match on captain's quarters. |
Garmon
Gods Holy Light Bringing You're Penance HYDRA RELOADED
344
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:37:00 -
[45] - Quote
I think the main way to keep a feature like this acceptable in the eyes of the "omg my sandbox" guys, would to dedicate this feature towards player run pvp tournaments. One of the biggest concerns in the esport panel was that it's too difficult to have a good tournament going without ccp's help. And it seems that what you have already isn't too far away from that.
Thank you for doing this and I hope the idiots in this thread doesn't deter the idea I like Duncan |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
63
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:37:00 -
[46] - Quote
thinking further on it depending on how it is implemented and how much you can mess with it from the outside (even if not the match directly) such as bets and throwing fights perhaps it could be cool and a great way for corps/alliances to train new players in PvP. |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
1019
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:39:00 -
[47] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:thinking further on it depending on how it is implemented and how much you can mess with it from the outside (even if not the match directly) such as bets and throwing fights perhaps it could be cool and a great way for corps/alliances to train new players in PvP.
* Organize tournament * Gather entry fee * Run off with money :)
I for one like it. German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
Gilgamesh BoShudda
Run and Gun
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:40:00 -
[48] - Quote
Great, so now when I am flying around in FW lowsec looking for frig fights, instead of finding mostly stabbed and cloaky frigs, I will find ONLY stabbed and cloaky frigs. All of the players who would normally be venturing out into FW systems looking for fun fights will instead just stay docked in the hubs. If this ends up on TQ, it will kill frig PVP. |
|
CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2424
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:40:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:thinking further on it depending on how it is implemented and how much you can mess with it from the outside (even if not the match directly) such as bets and throwing fights perhaps it could be cool and a great way for corps/alliances to train new players in PvP.
The training aspect is certainly true. In our first encounter testing it, I whooped Veritas and now he remembers to overheat! I assume he used this knowledge to take down Habakuk this morning CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
|
Garmon
Gods Holy Light Bringing You're Penance HYDRA RELOADED
344
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:41:00 -
[50] - Quote
Gilgamesh BoShudda wrote:Great, so now when I am flying around in FW lowsec looking for frig fights, instead of finding mostly stabbed and cloaky frigs, I will find ONLY stabbed and cloaky frigs. All of the players who would normally be venturing out into FW systems looking for fun fights will instead just stay docked in the hubs. If this ends up on TQ, it will kill frig PVP.
you're ******* ******** I like Duncan |
|
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
1039
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:42:00 -
[51] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:The training aspect is certainly true. In our first encounter testing it, I whooped Veritas and now he remembers to overheat! I assume he used this knowledge to take down Habakuk this morning Confirming both aspects of this post. CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online |
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
63
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:43:00 -
[52] - Quote
Gilgamesh BoShudda wrote:Great, so now when I am flying around in FW lowsec looking for frig fights, instead of finding mostly stabbed and cloaky frigs, I will find ONLY stabbed and cloaky frigs. All of the players who would normally be venturing out into FW systems looking for fun fights will instead just stay docked in the hubs. If this ends up on TQ, it will kill frig PVP.
Not true this sort of system caters to another type of player then FW does there will always be the RP pilots and the guys looking to fight dirty. |
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
297
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:43:00 -
[53] - Quote
So, as a parting gift you decided **** with the core concepts of the game universe you are leaving behind? There was no need for duels to ever be added to Eve and there certainly is no need to for this ****.
|
Sierra Payne
Confederation of Independent Contractors Swamphole
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:43:00 -
[54] - Quote
dexington wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? is this really the crowd you think should be rewarded?, do you really think sugar coated bullshit pvp is going to add anything to the sandbox?
Honestly I see it like the following,
What happens when you're a new player with no experience in PVP yet you want to learn how to be more effective at flying your ships. Your friend invites you to the dojo so that you can practice a bit more before heading out into the wild and PVP properly against all kind of matchups. Suddenly the quality of pilots rises because they learned better how to fly, making your PVP life more challenging and exciting.
Win/Win across the board, provided it's implemented with no rewards or benefits to other people. |
Camper101
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
1016
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:44:00 -
[55] - Quote
For the love of god:
Do - not - add - this - to - TQ - EVER.
(For SiSi it seems useful in some cases tho.) 2013.03.01 13:30:58 notify For participating in the General Discussion Forum Section your trustworthiness has been adjusted by -2.5000.
My name is Hans. The "L" stands for danger. |
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1121
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:45:00 -
[56] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:the end of most rvb activities for a start.
Citation needed.
Seriously, IF this EVER went from a prototype stage, it wouldne come close to killing RvB. We'd just integrate into the toolbox we have and move on. Its useful for 1v1s, useful if ever expanded for tournaments, yet doesnt stop the whole fleet aspect of our pvp, which tend to have 10-50 people per side going at it. RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2932
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:47:00 -
[57] - Quote
Sierra Payne wrote:dexington wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? is this really the crowd you think should be rewarded?, do you really think sugar coated bullshit pvp is going to add anything to the sandbox? Honestly I see it like the following, What happens when you're a new player with no experience in PVP yet you want to learn how to be more effective at flying your ships. Your friend invites you to the dojo so that you can practice a bit more before heading out into the wild and PVP properly against all kind of matchups. Suddenly the quality of pilots rises because they learned better how to fly, making your PVP life more challenging and exciting. Win/Win across the board, provided it's implemented with no rewards or benefits to other people.
Surely you get used to these fights, in a completely controlled environment with no way for other people to interfere, meaning that when you try actual PVP, you just die a lot to superior numbers because you still have no idea how ACTUAL pvp works?
Is this one giant troll thread? |
Redry Kidics
Delfus Inc. Brothers of Tangra
27
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
As a Japanese player, I welcome this system |
Masao Kurata
Z List
78
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:50:00 -
[59] - Quote
Mangala Solaris wrote:Masao Kurata wrote:the end of most rvb activities for a start. Citation needed. Seriously, IF this EVER went from a prototype stage, it wouldne come close to killing RvB. We'd just integrate into the toolbox we have and move on. Its useful for 1v1s, useful if ever expanded for tournaments, yet doesnt stop the whole fleet aspect of our pvp, which tend to have 10-50 people per side going at it.
Okay fine, so you're admitting it'll kill the 1v1s? That's bad enough. And do you REALLY think if this takes of that this will be the end of it? Of course it ******* won't be, next will be fleet arenas. |
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1123
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:56:00 -
[60] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:Mangala Solaris wrote:Masao Kurata wrote:the end of most rvb activities for a start. Citation needed. Seriously, IF this EVER went from a prototype stage, it wouldne come close to killing RvB. We'd just integrate into the toolbox we have and move on. Its useful for 1v1s, useful if ever expanded for tournaments, yet doesnt stop the whole fleet aspect of our pvp, which tend to have 10-50 people per side going at it. Okay fine, so you're admitting it'll kill the 1v1s? That's bad enough. And do you REALLY think if this takes of that this will be the end of it? Of course it ******* won't be, next will be fleet arenas.
You really are glass half full today arent you just.
As to admitting it'll kil 1v1s. RvB has little 1v1s these days, beyond the odd newbie, or bored vets between fleets. This would reinvigorate the 1v1, make them an actual thing again, beyond us needing to continually hammer home rules/or setup special channels on how 1v1s should be handled. Throw in a way of keeping score, and boom RvB can make an internal ladder utilizing these, giving another competitive aspect to our special kind of pvp.
And seriously you extrapolated all the way to fleet arenas, can I have some of your depression? RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
|
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
1044
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:58:00 -
[61] - Quote
So apparently some of the sites the launcher uses for Duality aren't available to the public right now. We're working on fixing that.
In the meantime I would very much like to invite people to give it a spin before they judge too deeply. There's a lot of jumping to conclusions going on in here. CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online |
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
65
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:58:00 -
[62] - Quote
Mangala Solaris wrote:
And seriously you extrapolated all the way to fleet arenas, can I have some of your depression?
no it is a reasonable concern and an understandable fear |
Eshnala
TURN LEFT The Camel Empire
42
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 11:59:00 -
[63] - Quote
Yes please!
I really like this feature and i can see it beeing helpful to further enhance the tournament style PvP aspect you alread have within EvE thx to the AT/NEO. You could extend it to the degree, where you have a league that leads up to the AT or NEO (and through this, get rid of the stupid silent auction).
And for the people who are complaining about this not beeing EvE and beeing against the sandbox: it will just add another layer of PvP. You are not required to participate in it and there will be plenty of people who wont like it. It just gives the people who are actualy wanting a more skillbased and e-sport directed PvP approach a platform to have exactly that. And i can see a huge benefit for the smaller guy that wants to participate in Tournaments, because they are able to become familiar with the whole system and practice it without that much of an effort.
I hope CCP does look over all the haters and just goes through with it, it wont hurt EvE at all in the end.
Also big thx to veritas for all his dedication towards the idea of tournaments in EvE (and all the technical stuff aswell ofc), you will be deeply missed. |
dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1228
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:02:00 -
[64] - Quote
Mangala Solaris wrote:This would reinvigorate the 1v1, make them an actual thing again, beyond us needing to continually hammer home rules/or setup special channels on how 1v1s should be handled.
It will probably kill 1v1, and in worst case also solo pvp and it will add wow style arenas... next step will be the garmon/tournament crowd pushing for dojo team fights and then small scale pvp is ******... I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
77
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:02:00 -
[65] - Quote
Nice stuff, if this ever hits TQ, I'm out.
|
Masao Kurata
Z List
78
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:03:00 -
[66] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:In the meantime I would very much like to invite people to give it a spin before they judge too deeply. There's a lot of jumping to conclusions going on in here.
This is pvp that happens in a protected instance. That's the entire premise of the idea and the reason it is unacceptable, we aren't "jumping to conclusions". |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Mordus Angels
2124
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:04:00 -
[67] - Quote
Camper101 wrote:Garmon has a point, for player hosted tournaments it does indeed make sense, but I do see a lot of people just carebearing in the real game then and for their "pewpew" thrills they can use Dojo without risking anything at all. The thing is "carebearing in the real game" will still put you at risk from the usual things, getting ganked and so on.
Honestly, I think it's great. This opens up PvP to new players that don't immediatley have a pvp oriented corp supporting them. Sure there are options like Brave for newbies, but many new players are put off by the "throw as many people as you can" way of solving problems.
Likewise, people that limit themselves to hisec mission running only never get to experience the rush of pvp. And who knows, maybe they get a taste for it and move out of the frigate dojo to pvp with larger ships in low/null.
dexington wrote: It will probably kill 1v1
What is dead may never die. |
Gilgamesh BoShudda
Run and Gun
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:05:00 -
[68] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Gilgamesh BoShudda wrote:Great, so now when I am flying around in FW lowsec looking for frig fights, instead of finding mostly stabbed and cloaky frigs, I will find ONLY stabbed and cloaky frigs. All of the players who would normally be venturing out into FW systems looking for fun fights will instead just stay docked in the hubs. If this ends up on TQ, it will kill frig PVP. Not true this sort of system caters to another type of player then FW does there will always be the RP pilots and the guys looking to fight dirty.
I think this will cater to exactly the same pilots that FW does. FW offers a chance for players who are new to pvp to find frig fights in a semi-controlled environment (plexes). And as for fighting pilots who fight dirty, what you are saying is that now the ONLY pilots I can get fights from are the ones who will blob me. What a ringing endorsement! |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
66
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:08:00 -
[69] - Quote
Eshnala wrote:Yes please!
And for the people who are complaining about this not beeing EvE and beeing against the sandbox: it will just add another layer of PvP. You are not required to participate in it and there will be plenty of people who wont like it. It just gives the people who are actualy wanting a more skillbased and e-sport directed PvP approach a platform to have exactly that. And i can see a huge benefit for the smaller guy that wants to participate in Tournaments, because they are able to become familiar with the whole system and practice it without that much of an effort.
I hope CCP does look over all the haters and just goes through with it, it wont hurt EvE at all in the end.
The people who are worried are the ones who feel this will affect them by removing people who are currently out in low sec looking for fights so yes it will affect even the ones not interested in it.
as for look over all the haters i would be very disappointed in any developer (fozzie) that would ignore those who think they have a bad idea and just push it through anyway |
Infrequent
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
55
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:08:00 -
[70] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:Infrequent wrote:I can see this replacing highsec duels, or just being a way to mess around on Sisi, either way +1 and let the bitter vet "slippery slope" tears commence, actually it seems they've already begun since people seem to fail to understand that this ISN'T ON TQ. If this was an idea proposed by a random EVE player, you'd have a point. It isn't though.
But that's where you're wrong, this idea has been around for years, infact a 3rd party company was in the early stages of working with CCP to get something just like this, on a tournament level what was player controlled and implemented. I assume that development has ceased, as we haven't heard anything from them since.
Winthorp wrote:Infrequent wrote:I can see this replacing highsec duels, or just being a way to mess around on Sisi, either way +1 and let the bitter vet "slippery slope" tears commence, actually it seems they've already begun since people seem to fail to understand that this ISN'T ON TQ. You fail to grasp the concept of slippery slope when you say it isn't on TQ...... Is it people with your intelligence this feature will cater for i wonder?
I assume it's for people who are capable of understanding open dialogue, where if it is viewed as an issue for TQ, the playerbase would proceed to convey that point and (hopefully) we would end up with it being a feature that is kept on for Sisi/tournament/event use. You see instead of individuals immediately going "IT'S OVER, EVE IS FINISHED", they should see that there is the likelyhood that their contribution should prevent this "slippery slope". |
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
66
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:08:00 -
[71] - Quote
Gilgamesh BoShudda wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Gilgamesh BoShudda wrote:Great, so now when I am flying around in FW lowsec looking for frig fights, instead of finding mostly stabbed and cloaky frigs, I will find ONLY stabbed and cloaky frigs. All of the players who would normally be venturing out into FW systems looking for fun fights will instead just stay docked in the hubs. If this ends up on TQ, it will kill frig PVP. Not true this sort of system caters to another type of player then FW does there will always be the RP pilots and the guys looking to fight dirty. I think this will cater to exactly the same pilots that FW does. FW offers a chance for players who are new to pvp to find frig fights in a semi-controlled environment (plexes). And as for fighting pilots who fight dirty, what you are saying is that now the ONLY pilots I can get fights from are the ones who will blob me. What a ringing endorsement!
nah you could always jump into a dojo |
Randolph Sykes
Iris Covenant The Gorgon Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:08:00 -
[72] - Quote
You're messing with the entire ~sandbox~ thing. Don't implement this on TQ, please. This is beyond dangerous for the game. |
Sierra Payne
Confederation of Independent Contractors Swamphole
5
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:11:00 -
[73] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Sierra Payne wrote:dexington wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? is this really the crowd you think should be rewarded?, do you really think sugar coated bullshit pvp is going to add anything to the sandbox? Honestly I see it like the following, What happens when you're a new player with no experience in PVP yet you want to learn how to be more effective at flying your ships. Your friend invites you to the dojo so that you can practice a bit more before heading out into the wild and PVP properly against all kind of matchups. Suddenly the quality of pilots rises because they learned better how to fly, making your PVP life more challenging and exciting. Win/Win across the board, provided it's implemented with no rewards or benefits to other people. Surely you get used to these fights, in a completely controlled environment with no way for other people to interfere, meaning that when you try actual PVP, you just die a lot to superior numbers because you still have no idea how ACTUAL pvp works? Is this one giant troll thread?
You seem to miss the point. Sure, you are totally right if you are judging it on major fleets, but that's NOT what the dojo has been made for. Myself I honestly have no problems with fleet fights, but I struggle in solo-battles because there's a whole different skillset that's relevant to your battle.
Sure, there always will be external factors that influence the outcome. But the idea of a dojo, if properly implemented, would help newer pilots to learn how their ship flies in terms of speed, agility, match ups, transversal/angular/radial velocity etc.
Not only that, but having a system such as this in place, again if done right, could spark a lot more PVP content through player-made tournaments.
Are you a champion and looking for a C5 WH corporation? We're recruiting now!http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=373271 |
tgl3
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
519
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:11:00 -
[74] - Quote
The deployable that contains the ships/modules - is it scannable/shootable? Twitter - TG_3 |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
421
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:12:00 -
[75] - Quote
Very cool beginning indeed.
Haven't been really playing for a long time (aside from ATs), this thing might make me to get back. |
Sierra Payne
Confederation of Independent Contractors Swamphole
5
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:12:00 -
[76] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Eshnala wrote:Yes please!
And for the people who are complaining about this not beeing EvE and beeing against the sandbox: it will just add another layer of PvP. You are not required to participate in it and there will be plenty of people who wont like it. It just gives the people who are actualy wanting a more skillbased and e-sport directed PvP approach a platform to have exactly that. And i can see a huge benefit for the smaller guy that wants to participate in Tournaments, because they are able to become familiar with the whole system and practice it without that much of an effort.
I hope CCP does look over all the haters and just goes through with it, it wont hurt EvE at all in the end.
The people who are worried are the ones who feel this will affect them by removing people who are currently out in low sec looking for fights so yes it will affect even the ones not interested in it. as for look over all the haters i would be very disappointed in any developer (fozzie) that would ignore those who think they have a bad idea and just push it through anyway
If they wanted more people to fly in lowsec, perhaps people should stop using links as a means to win battles? I know I gave up on FW because whoever you meet, they all have links somewhere.
Are you a champion and looking for a C5 WH corporation? We're recruiting now!http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=373271 |
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1125
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:13:00 -
[77] - Quote
tgl3 wrote:The deployable that contains the ships/modules - is it scannable/shootable?
Yes, you can scan this down and warp it. When and if I ever get on to Duality, I'll test the shooting part. RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box
440
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:13:00 -
[78] - Quote
this is absolute tripe, unprobeable pockets? really? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
66
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:13:00 -
[79] - Quote
Sierra Payne wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Sierra Payne wrote:dexington wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? is this really the crowd you think should be rewarded?, do you really think sugar coated bullshit pvp is going to add anything to the sandbox? Honestly I see it like the following, What happens when you're a new player with no experience in PVP yet you want to learn how to be more effective at flying your ships. Your friend invites you to the dojo so that you can practice a bit more before heading out into the wild and PVP properly against all kind of matchups. Suddenly the quality of pilots rises because they learned better how to fly, making your PVP life more challenging and exciting. Win/Win across the board, provided it's implemented with no rewards or benefits to other people. Surely you get used to these fights, in a completely controlled environment with no way for other people to interfere, meaning that when you try actual PVP, you just die a lot to superior numbers because you still have no idea how ACTUAL pvp works? Is this one giant troll thread? You seem to miss the point. Sure, you are totally right if you are judging it on major fleets, but that's NOT what the dojo has been made for. Myself I honestly have no problems with fleet fights, but I struggle in solo-battles because there's a whole different skillset that's relevant to your battle. Sure, there always will be external factors that influence the outcome. But the idea of a dojo, if properly implemented, would help newer pilots to learn how their ship flies in terms of speed, agility, match ups, transversal/angular/radial velocity etc. Not only that, but having a system such as this in place, again if done right, could spark a lot more PVP content through player-made tournaments.
but this is something they could do even if the dojos are kept off TQ |
Sierra Payne
Confederation of Independent Contractors Swamphole
5
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:13:00 -
[80] - Quote
Randolph Sykes wrote:You're messing with the entire ~sandbox~ thing. Don't implement this on TQ, please. This is beyond dangerous for the game.
Please elaborate.
As far as I can see it, provided it's done correctly, this will help the sandbox a lot more in the long run. It will allow you to run your own tournaments, your own competitions and that adds a layer of depth to the game.
Are you a champion and looking for a C5 WH corporation? We're recruiting now!http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=373271 |
|
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
77
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:16:00 -
[81] - Quote
Sierra Payne wrote: You seem to miss the point. Sure, you are totally right if you are judging it on major fleets, but that's NOT what the dojo has been made for. Myself I honestly have no problems with fleet fights, but I struggle in solo-battles because there's a whole different skillset that's relevant to your battle.
Sure, there always will be external factors that influence the outcome. But the idea of a dojo, if properly implemented, would help newer pilots to learn how their ship flies in terms of speed, agility, match ups, transversal/angular/radial velocity etc.
Not only that, but having a system such as this in place, again if done right, could spark a lot more PVP content through player-made tournaments.
No you're the one missing the point- tournaments are not "PVP content", they are bullshit. Development of this prototype should have never gotten the slightest flicker of green light in the first place.
|
Sierra Payne
Confederation of Independent Contractors Swamphole
6
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:16:00 -
[82] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:but this is something they could do even if the dojos are kept off TQ
True, you could keep it off TQ but only if CCP allows for direct character copying through an interface. I've bought a toon weeks ago and it still hasn't shown up on SiSi for me. This is an issue that needs resolving. Aside of that I think SiSi or Duality wouldn't be the best choices for this functionality purely due to the nature of these servers as being "test" servers.
Are you a champion and looking for a C5 WH corporation? We're recruiting now!http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=373271 |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
66
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:16:00 -
[83] - Quote
Sierra Payne wrote:Randolph Sykes wrote:You're messing with the entire ~sandbox~ thing. Don't implement this on TQ, please. This is beyond dangerous for the game. Please elaborate. As far as I can see it, provided it's done correctly, this will help the sandbox a lot more in the long run. It will allow you to run your own tournaments, your own competitions and that adds a layer of depth to the game.
but you can already do those things so they aren't added with this as for being detrimental to the sandbox it is the fact that it is creating a little room in the box that no one can touch |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
66
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:17:00 -
[84] - Quote
Sierra Payne wrote:
True, you could keep it off TQ but only if CCP allows for direct character copying through an interface. I've bought a toon weeks ago and it still hasn't shown up on SiSi for me. This is an issue that needs resolving. Aside of that I think SiSi or Duality wouldn't be the best choices for this functionality purely due to the nature of these servers as being "test" servers.
the fact that they are test servers is exactly why this is a place for them. test your fits and your skills |
Sierra Payne
Confederation of Independent Contractors Swamphole
6
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:18:00 -
[85] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Sierra Payne wrote: You seem to miss the point. Sure, you are totally right if you are judging it on major fleets, but that's NOT what the dojo has been made for. Myself I honestly have no problems with fleet fights, but I struggle in solo-battles because there's a whole different skillset that's relevant to your battle.
Sure, there always will be external factors that influence the outcome. But the idea of a dojo, if properly implemented, would help newer pilots to learn how their ship flies in terms of speed, agility, match ups, transversal/angular/radial velocity etc.
Not only that, but having a system such as this in place, again if done right, could spark a lot more PVP content through player-made tournaments.
No you're the one missing the point- tournaments are not "PVP content", they are bullshit. Development of this prototype should have never gotten the slightest flicker of green light in the first place.
You claim PVP Tournaments are bullshit, yet we have thousands of people tuning into the Alliance Tournament. Just because you do not like the tournaments does not instantly warrant them as bullshit, and with the huge amount of numbers watching the AT-XII etc, you can pretty safely deduct that the tournament aspect is something people are interested in.
EVE is all about creating your own content, yet when people get the option to create their own competitions because they can, you shoot the idea down without giving it any constructive feedback. I'd like to ask you to do it the opposite way
Are you a champion and looking for a C5 WH corporation? We're recruiting now!http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=373271 |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
719
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:19:00 -
[86] - Quote
Sierra Payne wrote:Honestly I see it like the following,
What happens when you're a new player with no experience in PVP yet you want to learn how to be more effective at flying your ships. Your friend invites you to the dojo so that you can practice a bit more before heading out into the wild and PVP properly against all kind of matchups. Suddenly the quality of pilots rises because they learned better how to fly, making your PVP life more challenging and exciting.
Win/Win across the board, provided it's implemented with no rewards or benefits to other people.
The dojos already exist in form of safe spots in space, where no one can warp to you except when they probe your spot - where you also learn to keep an eye on dscan during your PVP and to be careful.
When you are new, you ask experienced players to teach you. Or you teach yourself in the harsh universe EVE is supposed to be. We don't need Angry Bird players.
We don't need these arenas. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4752
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:19:00 -
[87] - Quote
I think this is great, as long as actual ships are lost when things blow up, I am totally fine with it. All the whining about not being able to interfere with the fights is just nonsense. There are plenty of things in EVE that you cannot interfere with right now, like industry, trading and PI. Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from? CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
66
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:23:00 -
[88] - Quote
Two step wrote:I think this is great, as long as actual ships are lost when things blow up, I am totally fine with it. All the whining about not being able to interfere with the fights is just nonsense. There are plenty of things in EVE that you cannot interfere with right now, like industry, trading and PI. Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from?
I can mess with your industry by popping your ships or messing with the mineral market i can screw with your PI by blasting your POCO. i can alter your trading by undercutting you |
Chirality Tisteloin
Zervas Aeronautics Get Off My Lawn
39
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:23:00 -
[89] - Quote
Awesome stuff! Hope this will be followed up! Also love the name.
CCP Veritas wrote:Greetings Spaceship Fighting Enthusiasts, There are four strong guiding principles that I applied while doing this:
- Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise.
- Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself
- We should cater as much as possible to the participant that wants a quick, easy PvP fix.
- Players should run the whole thing, with the game providing no economic value to participants nor organizers
Sounds good. How do you imagine number (2) to be implemented? Can the deployable be attacked when no-one is inside? How do you prevent people from just defensive-camping their own dojo?
What about spectators? (I always have that vision that the "spectators" enact the boundary violation )
Regards, Chira.
PS: Love the idea of using deadspace. Make player-buildable acceleration gates, maybe? With keys? Hackable? See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/ |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
77
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:24:00 -
[90] - Quote
By bullshit I mean it's not open-world, uncontrolled PVP which is the core of EVE Online. The whole idea of concensual, arranged fights is a cancer and it needs to be cured by fire before it spreads.
|
|
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Mordus Angels
2124
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:25:00 -
[91] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Two step wrote:I think this is great, as long as actual ships are lost when things blow up, I am totally fine with it. All the whining about not being able to interfere with the fights is just nonsense. There are plenty of things in EVE that you cannot interfere with right now, like industry, trading and PI. Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from? I can mess with your industry by popping your ships or messing with the mineral market i can screw with your PI by blasting your POCO. i can alter your trading by undercutting you You can mess with the ships in the dojo by fighting in the dojo.
Undercutting someone on the market is playing within the arena of the market. You don't get the opportunity to blowup the entire market now do you? |
Varesk
Origin. Black Legion.
596
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:25:00 -
[92] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:
In the meantime I would very much like to invite people to give it a spin before they judge too deeply. There's a lot of jumping to conclusions going on in here.
You are making an instance. This inst jumping to conclusions. If you put two players in a system where no one can warp to them, that is an Instance, which you are making.
|
Bytestorm
Hoplite Brigade Iron Oxide.
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:25:00 -
[93] - Quote
1.) How do you prevent Mindlinks to work in that deadspaces? It won't be fair if one side uses them. 4.) Why? This has a lot of potential to build an economy around it. |
Sierra Payne
Confederation of Independent Contractors Swamphole
6
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:25:00 -
[94] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Sierra Payne wrote:Randolph Sykes wrote:You're messing with the entire ~sandbox~ thing. Don't implement this on TQ, please. This is beyond dangerous for the game. Please elaborate. As far as I can see it, provided it's done correctly, this will help the sandbox a lot more in the long run. It will allow you to run your own tournaments, your own competitions and that adds a layer of depth to the game. but you can already do those things so they aren't added with this as for being detrimental to the sandbox it is the fact that it is creating a little room in the box that no one can touch
I can see the perspective, it definitely takes the risk away for some people. However, I do wonder how much more content it can bring. It could give us a lot more benefits in the long run in both our own content as well as CCP-made tournaments. Why is that relevant? We can deny it as much as we want, and pretend to be an ostrich when it comes to money, but CCP in the end wants to earn money. When a relatively simple idea could potentially rake in a lot more interested players in the long run, that is something I do support.
So what would I do?
Allow these systems only to be anchored outside of highsec, to prevent people from safely huddling up in Amarr. Alternatively, limit the amount of systems in which you can anchor such modules for battles to deep low security. Force the players that use it to be at risk in a bunch of systems where both sides of the coin can converge?
Are you a champion and looking for a C5 WH corporation? We're recruiting now!http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=373271 |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
1021
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:26:00 -
[95] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Sierra Payne wrote:Randolph Sykes wrote:You're messing with the entire ~sandbox~ thing. Don't implement this on TQ, please. This is beyond dangerous for the game. Please elaborate. As far as I can see it, provided it's done correctly, this will help the sandbox a lot more in the long run. It will allow you to run your own tournaments, your own competitions and that adds a layer of depth to the game. but you can already do those things so they aren't added with this as for being detrimental to the sandbox it is the fact that it is creating a little room in the box that no one can touch
Even though you theoretical can organize a tournament right now on TQ, I can't remember seeing it work successfully outside of a small closed environment (like corp internal event etc) over a longer period of time.
I would like to see something on TQ that promotes and motivates players for the AT and NEO. German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
66
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:27:00 -
[96] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Two step wrote:I think this is great, as long as actual ships are lost when things blow up, I am totally fine with it. All the whining about not being able to interfere with the fights is just nonsense. There are plenty of things in EVE that you cannot interfere with right now, like industry, trading and PI. Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from? I can mess with your industry by popping your ships or messing with the mineral market i can screw with your PI by blasting your POCO. i can alter your trading by undercutting you You can mess with the ships in the dojo by fighting in the dojo. Undercutting someone on the market is playing within the arena of the market. You don't get the opportunity to blowup the entire market now do you?
I have the opportunity to crash it yes and i affect the market every time i blow something up w/o ever needing to dock.
and i can't mess with ships in someones dojo that isn't mine and that is the problem most are finding with this |
dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1228
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:27:00 -
[97] - Quote
Two step wrote:Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from?
Do you also think ccp would add instanced pve missions and mining belts where people could be left alone, or should this new trend remain a dojo exclusive? I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Randolph Sykes
Iris Covenant The Gorgon Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:27:00 -
[98] - Quote
Sierra Payne wrote:Please elaborate.
What do you need to be elaborated? The lack of artificial boundaries is what makes EVE a sandbox game, its USP. And this is a clearest example of such artificial boundaries. Deployment of such a feature on TQ is going to kill a lot of pvp-related things. You are going to struggle finding a fight anywhere other than these dojos. Why? If I want to find a fight now - I need to roam around. I need to know where to find targets. I need to know how to get a fight - to catch a prey or to make myself look like a prey. There is a risk to end up in a camp, to be overwhelmed, to be jammed by a sudden Falcon - and this is what makes EVE pvp awesome. But a lot of people would prefer dojos to the sandbox pvp, because it's much easier. |
Eshnala
TURN LEFT The Camel Empire
42
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:28:00 -
[99] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Sierra Payne wrote:Randolph Sykes wrote:You're messing with the entire ~sandbox~ thing. Don't implement this on TQ, please. This is beyond dangerous for the game. Please elaborate. As far as I can see it, provided it's done correctly, this will help the sandbox a lot more in the long run. It will allow you to run your own tournaments, your own competitions and that adds a layer of depth to the game. but you can already do those things so they aren't added with this as for being detrimental to the sandbox it is the fact that it is creating a little room in the box that no one can touch Even though you theoretical can organize a tournament right now on TQ, I can't remember seeing it work successfully outside of a small closed environment (like corp internal event etc) over a longer period of time. I would like to see something on TQ that promotes and motivates players for the AT and NEO.
^ pretty much this. |
Dave Stark
6968
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:34:00 -
[100] - Quote
dexington wrote:Two step wrote:Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from? Do you also think ccp would add instanced pve missions and mining belts where people could be left alone, or should this new trend remain a dojo exclusive?
instanced mining would be fantastic, and not require me to find a mining agent. |
|
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Mordus Angels
2124
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:36:00 -
[101] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Two step wrote:I think this is great, as long as actual ships are lost when things blow up, I am totally fine with it. All the whining about not being able to interfere with the fights is just nonsense. There are plenty of things in EVE that you cannot interfere with right now, like industry, trading and PI. Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from? I can mess with your industry by popping your ships or messing with the mineral market i can screw with your PI by blasting your POCO. i can alter your trading by undercutting you You can mess with the ships in the dojo by fighting in the dojo. Undercutting someone on the market is playing within the arena of the market. You don't get the opportunity to blowup the entire market now do you? I have the opportunity to crash it yes and i affect the market every time i blow something up w/o ever needing to dock. and i can't mess with ships in someones dojo that isn't mine and that is the problem most are finding with this And you have the opportunity to blow up dojo ships every time you fight in the dojo.
When you crash a market, you use the tools within that market to crash it. And even then it still exists, you don't get to blow up the station, after all. When you fight in the dojo, you use the tools of the dojo to destroy ships within said dojo. Simple.
I can't drop bubble or bombs in hisec, does that mean the sandbox is dead? No, for each and every type of space and environment that exists, there are rules. No environment in eve is 100% freeform. |
Sierra Payne
Confederation of Independent Contractors Swamphole
6
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:39:00 -
[102] - Quote
Randolph Sykes wrote:Sierra Payne wrote:Please elaborate.
What do you need to be elaborated? The lack of artificial boundaries is what makes EVE a sandbox game, its USP. And this is a clearest example of such artificial boundaries. Deployment of such a feature on TQ is going to kill a lot of pvp-related things. You are going to struggle finding a fight anywhere other than these dojos. Why? If I want to find a fight now - I need to roam around. I need to know where to find targets. I need to know how to get a fight - to catch a prey or to make myself look like a prey. There is a risk to end up in a camp, to be overwhelmed, to be jammed by a sudden Falcon - and this is what makes EVE pvp awesome. But a lot of people would prefer dojos to the sandbox pvp, because it's much easier.
I see a lot of assumptions and all I think is that they can be debunked quite quickly.
Quote: You are going to struggle finding a fight anywhere other than these dojos
People already struggle finding good battles right now due to the enormous size and player distribution. It's either fighting against nullbears, WH people or the few central FW systems with link alts. Giving them an arena to PVP doesn't make any difference, especially not when you keep in mind that the size of EVE as a whole is too large to support the playerbase equally.
Quote:Why? If I want to find a fight now - I need to roam around. I need to know where to find targets. I need to know how to get a fight - to catch a prey or to make myself look like a prey.
And that still remains outside of the Dojo. You still have to find targets but rather than having people bail from PVP because of the sad state it's in with link-alts being required to remotely get any competitive in FW space, we now have a way to prepare them for solo battles to get their feet wet before losing tons of ships with minimal improvement because they get outperformed by veterans. We literally would have a way to help new players get more experienced without instantly having that dread over their heads that they won't make a dent anyways.
Quote: But a lot of people would prefer dojos to the sandbox pvp, because it's much easier I do not always have the time to go on a three hour roam with possibly 3-4 targets that are going to be fightable. Sure, I could do other things then but this is the issue that relates to the immense spread of players across the server. We're not having enough players per system to get an abundance of targets, in a relatively fair battle.
I know that the excitement of a roam is still there, but what happens when your Dojo offers no incentives (as said before)? It only allows tournaments and/or new players/duelling players to practice their stuff. Yup, I could go to SiSi but seeing that server is a test server (and thus not guaranteed to be stable for any tournament effort) along with toons not properly being added in time to SiSi, this may be a potential solution.
One note: It feels as if you force people on three hour roams, when they may have one hour to play. That's like being in SOV Null, having time for 1-2 sites and then being yelled at because you're not on a CTA that lasts 4-6 hours. It's ridiculous.
Are you a champion and looking for a C5 WH corporation? We're recruiting now!http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=373271 |
Eshnala
TURN LEFT The Camel Empire
42
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:39:00 -
[103] - Quote
Just make the dojo destructable, including everything thats in there. Then you have the option to interfere with it. |
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
389
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:43:00 -
[104] - Quote
Will the winners of Dojo fights will get bonus skill points and State Issue Ravens as reward for their victory? Fear God and Thread Nought |
GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
100
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:43:00 -
[105] - Quote
yah new toys! |
Randolph Sykes
Iris Covenant The Gorgon Empire
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:54:00 -
[106] - Quote
Sierra Payne wrote: People already struggle finding good battles right now due to the enormous size and player distribution.
It doesn't justify an attempt to make things worse than they already are.
Sierra Payne wrote: And that still remains outside of the Dojo.
You missed the whole point. Dojos are going to completely substitute the pvp environment for many players, not to be an addition.
Tell me: would you continue doing as many roamings as you do now to get pvp in this game should dojos become a thing on TQ?
Sierra Payne wrote: I do not always have the time to go on a three hour roam with possibly 3-4 targets that are going to be fightable.
If you need three hours to find 3-4 fightable targets - you are doing it wrong. You need to improve. This is the difference between a good and a very good player. I don't consider myself a very good player fyi, but I see a healthy challenge in becoming better at finding targets. But throw some dojos on TQ - and there is no need to improve anymore. This kills competition, not enhances it. |
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
1051
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:58:00 -
[107] - Quote
Folks can use "/build:828481" instead of "/server:Duality" in the launcher shortcut to patch. Directions should work from that point forward.
Hopefully the stated directions will start working later, but for now that'll workaround. CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online |
|
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad The Afterlife.
42
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:58:00 -
[108] - Quote
Oh, i thought you were gone.
Ever planning to backport LoL matchmaking into eve ? |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1539
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:59:00 -
[109] - Quote
Be very careful about making very sure that this can't be used to hide links, supers, an ess, sov structures, or anything else~important~. Or even a ship that couldn't hide without this. Unprobeable deadspace sounds very very dangerous. I also want to watch the matches!
I'm very much okay with something that controls fights between two consenting adults for the sole purpose of 1v1 fights in the missionary position Build your empire ! Start today ! Rent Space in Perrigen Falls and Feythabolis Contact me for details :)
|
Sierra Payne
Confederation of Independent Contractors Swamphole
6
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:01:00 -
[110] - Quote
Randolph Sykes wrote:Sierra Payne wrote: I do not always have the time to go on a three hour roam with possibly 3-4 targets that are going to be fightable.
If you need three hours to find 3-4 fightable targets - you are doing it wrong. You need to improve. This is the difference between a good and a very good player. I don't consider myself a very good player fyi, but I see a healthy challenge in becoming better at finding targets. But throw some dojos on TQ - and there is no need to improve anymore. This kills competition, not enhances it.
So here I am, going out for a roam in FW space. I do not have a link-alt available to get boosts so about 75% of the fights are badly in the opponent's favor. So I am sitting there with skills that need some work, fighting someone who has a massive advantage and you then tell me it's my fault I can't find fightable targets without just throwing ISK at it and pray?
It's a problem that puts a lot of new players off.
Are you a champion and looking for a C5 WH corporation? We're recruiting now!http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=373271 |
|
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
1024
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:03:00 -
[111] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Be very careful about making very sure that this can't be used to hide links, supers, an ess, sov structures, or anything else~important~. Or even a ship that couldn't hide without this. Unprobeable deadspace sounds very very dangerous. I also want to watch the matches! You can already do that now. (If there is some kind of deadspace in the system) German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
Dreekus
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:04:00 -
[112] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Precision Zero wrote:Where is the dislike button? THIS. I can't believe this is happening actually. Am very disappoint. The slippery slope has begun...
I hate with passion "Slippery slope" argument. You can say this about anything.
But more on topic:idea sound AWESOME, but honestly never on TQ. Maybe on sisi but never on TQ. It would make easier organizing any player driven tournaments but risks are too great imho. |
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
196
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:05:00 -
[113] - Quote
To all those people who already bemoan the death of 1v1 PvP...
I would estimate that at least 78.3 % of all kills in EVE are generated through fights where one side would not have wanted the fight, because they were badly outnumbered. People only fight if they think they will or will likely win. So fights will only happen 1-5 times for each noob and then when one side does not pay attention/the cat runs over the keyboard or the like. On the other hand, everyone wants PvP and cries that it's so hard to find fights (=fights they would win).
Result: people are hotdropping single ships with fleets of cloaky battleships... out of boredom. And large areas where people do not do certain things, because it's... well... unhealthy because of all the ganks.
An arena sysrem would encourage risk adverse players (coll.: cowards ^^) to try PvP in a controlled environment. Same counts for specialized PvPers who have not focussed on initiating fights/controlling condtions (coll.: mindless F1 drones).
With all those people in the Dojo, the thing is practically guaranteed to become a success. And what is even more important: The rest of the cluster will have a more balanced ratio of wolves and sheep. And the learning cliff for PvP will be easier to master since you can train.
|
Le Petite More
Dropbears Anonymous Brave Collective
90
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:05:00 -
[114] - Quote
Dear CCP,
Please consider that I have tried this and think it is a terrible idea. Solo roaming is hard enough without creating "safe" instances for people to partake in risk free pvp. This reduces player interaction without actually adding anything to the game. Like placing incursions in highsec this encourages a play style that will leave many of us upset. The answer to fights are hard to find is not to make them even harder to find.
These will also be abused the hell out of to create safe pockets for afk, well you can't call them cloakers because they won't have to cloak, cyno alts, scouts, supers, and links.
For newer players like those of us in BNI it also reduces our only weapon against the SP gap.....numbers.
I hope these never make them onto tranquility.
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
66
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:06:00 -
[115] - Quote
Eshnala wrote:Just make the dojo destructable, including everything thats in there. Then you have the option to interfere with it.
and don't make them easy to build put them around the Cruiser level and maybe make the BPCs only spawn in LS |
Chirality Tisteloin
Zervas Aeronautics Get Off My Lawn
39
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:08:00 -
[116] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote: I also want to watch the matches!
Agreed.
Spectators could be a target for interuption and thus bind the dojo into the sandbox without disrupting the Pewdokas. Make Stands that are scannable and warpable. Protected zone would then be more like a POS shield with shooting allowed inside.
How to make the spectators sit in their ships around the Dojo? Make them enforce the boundary violation
On the otherhand: Deadspace usage by players could have such potential. Player built acceleration gates ..... See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/ |
Randolph Sykes
Iris Covenant The Gorgon Empire
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:09:00 -
[117] - Quote
Sierra Payne wrote: So here I am, going out for a roam in FW space.
If you are trying to find targets in key systems of Caldari FW space - you are doing it wrong. You can easily find a lot of non-linked targets in less populated systems: Martoh, Ashitsu, Kehjari etc. Or in Minmatar FW space. See - you have become a little bit better! |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2722
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:09:00 -
[118] - Quote
It is my opinion that this system needs to be implemented on Chaos posthaste; all the devs should definitely spend time per-week in it, in the hopes that the next dev roam won't be so mindlessly slaughtered. |
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
1053
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:10:00 -
[119] - Quote
Le Petite More wrote:Please consider that I have tried this and think it is a terrible idea.
Le Petite More wrote:These will also be abused the hell out of to create safe pockets for afk, well you can't call them cloakers because they won't have to cloak, cyno alts, scouts, supers, and links. Had you actually tried this you'd know the fight has a 5 minute timer.
And that the only ships and modules that go in are ships and modules that are stocked in the dojo.
Oye. CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online |
|
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1520
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:16:00 -
[120] - Quote
Now you are talking crazy talk, let them get it the hate out of their systems before they try it or actually . . .you know. . . think.
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
|
Johnathan Coffey
EVE Corporation 25112592124
15
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:16:00 -
[121] - Quote
dexington wrote:Two step wrote:Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from? Do you also think ccp would add instanced pve missions and mining belts where people could be left alone, or should this new trend remain a dojo exclusive? Also stations, market orders, contracts, star gates and any other infrastructure that cannot be disrupted.
If your only argument is that ANY ship in space MUST ALWAYS be vulnerable to outside attackers, you have hereby disqualified yourself from the discussion. The real question is whether this proposed feature will make EVE a better game or not. First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3789
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:16:00 -
[122] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Le Petite More wrote:Please consider that I have tried this and think it is a terrible idea.
Le Petite More wrote:These will also be abused the hell out of to create safe pockets for afk, well you can't call them cloakers because they won't have to cloak, cyno alts, scouts, supers, and links. Had you actually tried this you'd know the fight has a 5 minute timer. And that the only ships and modules that go in are ships and modules that are stocked in the dojo. Oye. Oooooooh SNAP
Anyone opposed to this is pretty much dumb, sorry. This is the most eve-like implementation of "structured fights" that you can possibly get, and it's awesome. There's simply no room for any other opinion. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Makari Aeron
The Shadow's Of Eve TSOE Consortium
108
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:18:00 -
[123] - Quote
I think there's quite a bit too much knee jerk reaction here. While I am not keen on 1v1 fights as they really aren't realistic for my part of nullsec, when I get home from work I'll give this a try. Definitely good for testing out fits in a controlled environment. Though, that's sometimes what I use SiSi for since things cost 100isk. I'll leave my judgement for after I try out this new Dojo-thing-a-ma-bob-that-floats-in-space and I implore other to do the same. No need to give other players false impressions. CCP RedDawn:Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty..||| CCP Goliath:I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. ||| CCP Goliath:http://goo.gl/PKGDPZ |
Rizzen Lipton
Deadly Vanguards Dangerous Voltage
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:21:00 -
[124] - Quote
We have lost the EVE's world pvp Very, very bad idea, CCP. |
|
CCP Prism X
C C P C C P Alliance
1522
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:22:00 -
[125] - Quote
There's something inherently novel about submitting prototype code on a design that's quite clearly going to be controversial, and then go post about it here to create a bit of forum drama, on your second last day at CCP. Scorched Earth all the way!
Man I'm going to miss you and your Cowboy ways. CCP Prism X Programmer Team Gridlock |
|
Xander Phoena
Zebra Corp The Bastion
448
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:23:00 -
[126] - Quote
mynnna wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Le Petite More wrote:Please consider that I have tried this and think it is a terrible idea.
Le Petite More wrote:These will also be abused the hell out of to create safe pockets for afk, well you can't call them cloakers because they won't have to cloak, cyno alts, scouts, supers, and links. Had you actually tried this you'd know the fight has a 5 minute timer. And that the only ships and modules that go in are ships and modules that are stocked in the dojo. Oye. Oooooooh SNAP Anyone opposed to this is pretty much dumb, sorry. This is the most eve-like implementation of "structured fights" that you can possibly get, and it's awesome. There's simply no room for any other opinion.
Pretty much this. I cannot wait to see this on TQ. www.crossingzebras.com |
Dave Stark
6969
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:25:00 -
[127] - Quote
mynnna wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Le Petite More wrote:Please consider that I have tried this and think it is a terrible idea.
Le Petite More wrote:These will also be abused the hell out of to create safe pockets for afk, well you can't call them cloakers because they won't have to cloak, cyno alts, scouts, supers, and links. Had you actually tried this you'd know the fight has a 5 minute timer. And that the only ships and modules that go in are ships and modules that are stocked in the dojo. Oye. Oooooooh SNAP Anyone opposed to this is pretty much dumb, sorry. This is the most eve-like implementation of "structured fights" that you can possibly get, and it's awesome. There's simply no room for any other opinion.
sure it is the most eve-like implimentation, and it is awesome.
except i still don't think 'structured fights' should have a place in eve. especially when they're instanced off. |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
80
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:28:00 -
[128] - Quote
mynnna wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Le Petite More wrote:Please consider that I have tried this and think it is a terrible idea.
Le Petite More wrote:These will also be abused the hell out of to create safe pockets for afk, well you can't call them cloakers because they won't have to cloak, cyno alts, scouts, supers, and links. Had you actually tried this you'd know the fight has a 5 minute timer. And that the only ships and modules that go in are ships and modules that are stocked in the dojo. Oye. Oooooooh SNAP Anyone opposed to this is pretty much dumb, sorry. This is the most eve-like implementation of "structured fights" that you can possibly get, and it's awesome. There's simply no room for any other opinion.
I don't criticize the implementation, but the idea of structured fights is blasphemy in the first place.
Any supporters are pretty much dumb, sorry. There's simply no room for any other opinion. |
Marc Durant
139
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:29:00 -
[129] - Quote
Please don't go. Yes, yes-áI am. Thanks for noticing.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8296
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:30:00 -
[130] - Quote
This is a bad idea. You don't offer instant gratification mechanics in a game about long term goals. And you don't introduce a distraction that pulls people away from interacting with other people in more meaningful ways. This is why a lot of the Incarna ideas were bad (in a game that relies on spaceships blowing up and people in spaceships doing things in space producing materials to fuel it's economy, giving people a reason to not undock is mind numbingly stupid).
To mke it was the same kind of thing wit |
|
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3791
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:30:00 -
[131] - Quote
If you don't like other people having structured fights, you can go inject a little bit of unstructuredness into their day by blowing up their dojo.
e: If structured fights have no place on TQ, do y'all folks also oppose the Alliance Tournament? New Eden Open? Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
80
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:31:00 -
[132] - Quote
Good things about EVE:
+ open world, unstructured full loot PVP
Bad things about EVE:
- all the rest
This prototype violates the core of the game. It would seriously be better to instance hisec missions than develop this any further.
|
Bei ArtJay
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
86
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:31:00 -
[133] - Quote
My kid is about to wake up then I'm going to have to go to work after and it's not done patching... WANT NOW!!!!!
Hopefully some folks are on later to try this out, can't wait to have a go.
Also: Veritas how much IRL ISK bribe would you need to stay and finish this? I'm sure we could crowd-source a big fat bonus for you
To everyone whining like the little bitches you are: get out. Vertias spends some time making something fun to give to a part of the eve community that massively respect him as a leaving present and you troll the **** out of him. **** off and get out of this thread you ungrateful cunts. This is on duality and likely never to hit TQ, but would be really awesome if it could be run as a side server for eve-players to develop an eve e-sports scene, so quit pissing your panties and leave us tourney nerds be k thx.
And Veritas, thanks again for all your work at CCP and all the best for the future. |
Franky Saken
Hard Knocks Inc.
48
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:32:00 -
[134] - Quote
mynnna wrote:If you don't like other people having structured fights, you can go inject a little bit of unstructuredness into their day by blowing up their dojo.
But (as listed in OP) one of the primary objectives of this thing is "quick easy fair pvp" and the fights themselves should be untouchable.
Also wonder how stocking/deploying them combines with "quick easy pvp". |
Tyrendian Biohazard
Ubiquitous Hurt
337
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:35:00 -
[135] - Quote
Note: I am basing my understanding without having tried this out, but think I have my head wrapped around the concept based on the original post. From that reading, I also don't have much of a desire to try it out in the first place.
I'm going to put a +1 in the "would not like to see this happen on TQ column".
I'm not going to cry out this is the end of the sandbox, or EVE PvP would end, I think the fact that PvP would be handed to us, and consensual, is very anti-EVE. Sure people love the thrill of winning a fight with 5% hull, but just activating modules isn't just the only aspect of PvP. The searching, hunting, stalking, knowing the region, population, springing bait/traps, etc, are all aspects that could be affected by this (and in my opinion, those are some of the most fun things about PvP).
However, I do feel that if this ever made it to TQ (in its current form) it would be used less than the dueling feature (after the initial "everybody is doing it").
To quote CCP Falcon:
Quote:
I love EVE and the core of what the game stands for. That's why I've been dedicated to it and its community for over 11 years now.
Risk vs Reward is a huge part of that.
Honestly, if that changed, and the game started to soften out and cater to those who want to have their hand held all the way through their gameplay experience, I'd rather not be working on the project regardless of how many subscribers we had, than sell out the core principles that New Eden was built on.
That's a sentiment that I hear a lot around the office, because we are all invested in what makes New Eden so compelling - The dark, gritty, hard reality beneath the pretty ships and nebulas.
EVE is built on the core principle that you are never 100% safe, no matter where you go or what you do. When you interact with another player, you roll the dice on whether they're going to screw you over or not. That's a massive part of the social engineering behind the very basic underpinnings of the EVE Universe.
My twitch stream to help new players: http://www.twitch.tv/biohazrd51
|
dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1229
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:35:00 -
[136] - Quote
mynnna wrote:If you don't like other people having structured fights, you can go inject a little bit of unstructuredness into their day by blowing up their dojo.
e: If structured fights have no place on TQ, do y'all folks also oppose the Alliance Tournament? New Eden Open?
that sounds like an awful amount of work, maybe we can get a feature added that can blow it up for me, i really don't have time to fit a ship or undock and look for dojo's. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Masao Kurata
Z List
78
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:35:00 -
[137] - Quote
Here are some basic modifications you can do to make this acceptable:
Fights take place at the deployable. There should be nothing to stop you from warping to it. You have to be in your pod to board a ship from the deployable and risk getting podded, discouraging the use of expensive implants. Boarding a fitted ship from the deployable makes you drop fleet, enforces the boundary violation rule and enters you into a limited engagement with the opponent. Leaving that ship or joining a fleet counts as a forfeit but otherwise has no consequences. If foul play occurs that mechanically counts as a win, it's up to the participants to argue over it. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
66
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:36:00 -
[138] - Quote
Bei ArtJay wrote:My kid is about to wake up then I'm going to have to go to work after and it's not done patching... WANT NOW!!!!!
Hopefully some folks are on later to try this out, can't wait to have a go.
To everyone whining like the little bitches you are: get out. Vertias spends some time making something fun to give to a part of the eve community that massively respect him as a leaving present and you troll the **** out of him. **** off and get out of this thread you ungrateful **** s. This is on duality and likely never to hit TQ, but would be really awesome if it could be run as a side server for eve-players to develop an eve e-sports scene, so quit pissing your panties and leave us tourney nerds be k thx.
And Veritas, thanks again for all your work at CCP and all the best for the future.
1st what better send off then a troll 2nd most ppl in this thread like the idea and are just voicing concerns if it does find its way to TQ |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3791
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:38:00 -
[139] - Quote
Tyrendian Biohazard wrote:Note: I am basing my understanding without having tried this out, but think I have my head wrapped around the concept based on the original post. From that reading, I also don't have much of a desire to try it out in the first place. I'm going to put a +1 in the "would not like to see this happen on TQ column". I'm not going to cry out this is the end of the sandbox, or EVE PvP would end, I think the fact that PvP would be handed to us, and consensual, is very anti-EVE. Sure people love the thrill of winning a fight with 5% hull, but just activating modules isn't just the only aspect of PvP. The searching, hunting, stalking, knowing the region, population, springing bait/traps, etc, are all aspects that could be affected by this (and in my opinion, those are some of the most fun things about PvP). However, I do feel that if this ever made it to TQ (in its current form) it would be used less than the dueling feature (after the initial "everybody is doing it"). To quote CCP Falcon: Quote:
I love EVE and the core of what the game stands for. That's why I've been dedicated to it and its community for over 11 years now.
Risk vs Reward is a huge part of that.
Honestly, if that changed, and the game started to soften out and cater to those who want to have their hand held all the way through their gameplay experience, I'd rather not be working on the project regardless of how many subscribers we had, than sell out the core principles that New Eden was built on.
That's a sentiment that I hear a lot around the office, because we are all invested in what makes New Eden so compelling - The dark, gritty, hard reality beneath the pretty ships and nebulas.
EVE is built on the core principle that you are never 100% safe, no matter where you go or what you do. When you interact with another player, you roll the dice on whether they're going to screw you over or not. That's a massive part of the social engineering behind the very basic underpinnings of the EVE Universe.
Plenty of risk here - the person that deploys and stocks the Dojo is risking it and everything he puts in it. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Gorski Car
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
376
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:42:00 -
[140] - Quote
This is a pretty dank feature. You'll cowards dont even smoke crack #GORSKI4CSM https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4265138#post4265138
|
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
66
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:43:00 -
[141] - Quote
mynnna wrote: Plenty of risk here - the person that deploys and stocks the Dojo is risking it and everything he puts in it.
Can I assume there will also be loot dropped |
Makari Aeron
The Shadow's Of Eve TSOE Consortium
108
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:43:00 -
[142] - Quote
mynnna wrote:If you don't like other people having structured fights, you can go inject a little bit of unstructuredness into their day by blowing up their dojo.
e: If structured fights have no place on TQ, do y'all folks also oppose the Alliance Tournament? New Eden Open?
Oppose? Not particularly. Think they are pointless to my playstyle? Yes. Is AT and NEO good to attract attention to the game? Yes. Is it relevant to "normal" Open World PvP in EVE? No.
While I don't believe in structured fights on TQ, I can understand why others would and as such I am not opposed to having the option if I change my mind. CCP RedDawn:Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty..||| CCP Goliath:I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. ||| CCP Goliath:http://goo.gl/PKGDPZ |
Skyler Hawk
The Scope Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:46:00 -
[143] - Quote
This sounds like a pretty cool idea and I'll give it a try when I get the opportunity. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8297
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:46:00 -
[144] - Quote
mynnna wrote:If you don't like other people having structured fights, you can go inject a little bit of unstructuredness into their day by blowing up their dojo.
e: If structured fights have no place on TQ, do y'all folks also oppose the Alliance Tournament? New Eden Open?
No, because those invovled a very few people. This is a 'global' game mechanic. One of the things that makes EVE, well, EVE is that it has nothing that even looks like Instancing. This looks like Instancing.
|
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1127
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:47:00 -
[145] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:mynnna wrote: Plenty of risk here - the person that deploys and stocks the Dojo is risking it and everything he puts in it.
Can I assume there will also be loot dropped
Yes wrecks drop.
You can reinforce dojos, so I assume if they do not get scooped, then you can pop them and take the stuff (note assume, im still mucking with things). RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8301
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:48:00 -
[146] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:Here are some basic modifications you can do to make this acceptable:
Fights take place at the deployable. There should be nothing to stop you from warping to it. You have to be in your pod to board a ship from the deployable and risk getting podded, discouraging the use of expensive implants. Boarding a fitted ship from the deployable makes you drop fleet, enforces the boundary violation rule and enters you into a limited engagement with the opponent. Leaving that ship or joining a fleet counts as a forfeit but otherwise has no consequences. If foul play occurs that mechanically counts as a win, it's up to the participants to argue over it.
This post here is what I would find to be MINIMALLY acceptable for this kind of feature. |
Kaeda Maxwell
Carebear Luv Klub Neo-Bushido Movement
314
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:50:00 -
[147] - Quote
Great! Can't wait to see this on TQ eventually.
To the slippery slope folks; This changes nothing the people that are primarily interested in this feature aren't in space for you to fight anyway. You know what was the most novel thing about this years AT? That the people that won in actually fly on TQ in PvP regularly (something that hasn't been true of the of previous years winners for a few years they seem to mostly just play EVE for tournaments and that has been the case ever since AT9 pretty much). This is CCP potentially adding a feature that may stop many of us 1vs1 & esports types from simply walking away from EVE for games like LoL & DotA. We aren't the people you're hot dropping, we aren't the people you catch in gate camps. At best we're the guy killing your light tackle in a solo boat on TQ. I've been a member of the solo and frigate community for some years now and that community has only gotten narrower for years, CCP adding stuff that keep players in the game is a good thing, not a bad thing. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8301
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:54:00 -
[148] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:
Once matched up with another player in the dojo, youGÇÖre both whisked away directly from station to your ships, assembled from the items in the dojo, in a deadspace pocket placed randomly in space thatGÇÖs guarded from people warping to it - theyGÇÖll warp to the dojo deployable if they try.
To be totally clear, THIS is the un-EVE-like thing many of us are protesting. This should never EVER happen on Tranq, under any circumstances, 5 minute timer or not.
hard as hell to probe things in this pocket, sure. Impossible. NO, that's basically instancing and EVE online should no do this. don't give in to the instant gratification crowd guys. Don't go down this slope.
At the end of the day it's CCP's game and y'all will do whatever (and you're doing this won't be the end of the game in general or even for me personally), but this is not a good idea. Not in any way, shape or form. You'd be changing the core of what EVE is. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8302
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:58:00 -
[149] - Quote
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
To the slippery slope folks; This changes nothing the people that are primarily interested in this feature aren't in space for you to fight anyway.
This do not matter. The possibility of non-consensual pvp ANYTIME in any space in new eden is a CORE principle. This idea violates that core principle.
I hope like so many other EVE prototypes, this one dies before it can become anything other than a prototype, it changes the basic nature of the game even if Dojos are vulnerable and even if it doesn't have an affect on most EVE players. If you want to do 'mini-tournament' with low chance of interference there are plenty of empty systems all across New Eden, or on SiSi. |
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
196
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:59:00 -
[150] - Quote
Again. This is REALLY great.
And to those who disagree: it's already there today on TQ - only people have to relog to World of Tanks or LoL.
-have them stay in EVE -let them have fun -very important: more explosions!
2nd round effect: After bored players can blow up their stuff MUCH faster than they do know, guess what happens. The number of farmers must increase (=targets for open world PvP aficionados) and/or the PLEX price goes down, because people have to buy new stuff to burn in the dojos.
|
|
Dave Stark
6974
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:59:00 -
[151] - Quote
mynnna wrote:If you don't like other people having structured fights, you can go inject a little bit of unstructuredness into their day by blowing up their dojo.
e: If structured fights have no place on TQ, do y'all folks also oppose the Alliance Tournament? New Eden Open?
no, but they're planned annual tournaments. not a replacement for people when they're "bored for 20 mins with nothing to do".
not to mention, don't the AT fights themselves take place in jove space? which for all intents and purposes isn't really tq. I was under the impression that the NEO was held on a test server? i may be mistaken, of course. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5154
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:00:00 -
[152] - Quote
just because you can does not mean you should -1 not supported =]I[= |
Chessur
Black Complex
368
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:00:00 -
[153] - Quote
I LOVE THIS, THANK YOU VERITAS! I can only hope that this project continues to be built on |
Kaeda Maxwell
Carebear Luv Klub Neo-Bushido Movement
314
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:01:00 -
[154] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
To the slippery slope folks; This changes nothing the people that are primarily interested in this feature aren't in space for you to fight anyway.
This do not matter. The possibility of non-consensual pvp ANYTIME in any space in new eden is a CORE principle. This idea violates that core principle.
You can't un-consensually PvP me in EVE when I'm playing League, because there's nothing left in EVE for me to log in for.
|
Igor Nappi
Perkone Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:01:00 -
[155] - Quote
I hope this never gets into TQ. Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game. |
Dave Stark
6974
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:03:00 -
[156] - Quote
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
To the slippery slope folks; This changes nothing the people that are primarily interested in this feature aren't in space for you to fight anyway.
This do not matter. The possibility of non-consensual pvp ANYTIME in any space in new eden is a CORE principle. This idea violates that core principle. You can't un-consensually PvP me in EVE when I'm playing League, because there's nothing left in EVE for me to log in for.
if you can't find something to do in eve; you're doing it wrong. |
Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
579
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:03:00 -
[157] - Quote
Needs the ability to put up isk bets that go to the winner. |
Kenneth Skybound
The War Den War Rats
116
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:03:00 -
[158] - Quote
Just quoting myself from reddit for visibility :P
Kenneth Skybound wrote:Frankly, I support this - not in the current iteration by any means (and there are some things within I don't quite understand, like are the parts lost if the ship blows up, and who pays that bill?). Things I'd like to see:
- Organized bets
- Standing limitations
- Character/corp/alliance blacklist or whitelist
- Deadspace NOT hidden, but cancels all bets if warped to, offending character announced to all betters, competitors and deployable owner, ceases all combat instantly
- Entry fee, reward payouts and charges on item usage - all optional
- Adaptable points system, not limited to just ships
- Teams. Obviously.
- Ability to hack the deployable, granting suspect flag in empire, to disable the "end combat" of people warping to the deadspace. Also the ability to siphon entry fees, bets and item fees (some%) whilst attached and successfully hacked. No notification given to anyone other than physically being at the deployable and seeing the offender. Cov Ops get minor bonus to siphon %, SoE ships get individual bonuses (astero matching cov ops, stratios a little higher, nestor much higher). Siphoning of cash and removal of "end combat" security requires constant connection to the deployable. Only one person may be connected at the same time.
- Deployable must not be on grid with any station, stargate, starbase, sentry gun, cosmic anomaly, customs office or cosmic signature.
- Items and ships use in the fight will suffer usual destruction mechanics.
- Optional warp bubble, covering entire arena + 100km, to prevent losing ships warping out and to prevent pods warping out.
- End of match removes deadspace immediately (except for combat stopped, which will wait 2 minutes) allowing for looting and salvaging by external vessels.
- Third parties able to place "Bounties" which pay out for beating certain ships, ship groups, in certain timeframes and/or against players/corporations/alliances at specified/all dojos with chosen payout method (%, flat reward, reward based on standings, reward based on pre-match acceptance by bounty placer - default not allowed in case of no response).
There are things other people might add or disagree with. This is entirely personal opinion from some quick thinking. I know and am aware of the prototype, in-dev stage of this deployable that may not even see singularity, let alone TQ, but my comments and ideas are put forward as if it will progress to the main server. That said, I welcome any and all reasonable comments and criticisms, including any CCP-Dev input saying if one or more ideas are "as good as impossible". :3 |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
1024
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:04:00 -
[159] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:I was under the impression that the NEO was held on a test server? i may be mistaken, of course. You are mistaken. NEO and AT is on TQ in jove space.
The player made SCL is on sisi. And AFAIK it's a shi[b][b/]t ton of effort with sometimes human errors like one team had more than allowed points :( Image SCL on TQ made by players but with better tools to do so :) German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
KnowUsByTheDead
Sunlight...Through The Blight.
2074
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:05:00 -
[160] - Quote
Goodbye roams for :gudfites:
No need to roam and hunt when you have an instant-gratification fight waiting for you.
Call Of Duty: New Eden.
*sigh*
Trammel, here we come!!!!!
Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense. |
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
66
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:06:00 -
[161] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Kaeda Maxwell wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
To the slippery slope folks; This changes nothing the people that are primarily interested in this feature aren't in space for you to fight anyway.
This do not matter. The possibility of non-consensual pvp ANYTIME in any space in new eden is a CORE principle. This idea violates that core principle. You can't un-consensually PvP me in EVE when I'm playing League, because there's nothing left in EVE for me to log in for. if you can't find something to do in eve; you're doing it wrong.
this line of thought is wrong |
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
196
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:06:00 -
[162] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: This do not matter. The possibility of non-consensual pvp ANYTIME in any space in new eden is a CORE principle. This idea violates that core principle.
I have perfectly no idea what is your point. Do you want a lifetime guarantee that you may gank/hotdrop anything anywhere ? Seriously, I don't get it.
Especially, because with those Dojos you actually could get the fight anytime... instead of posting in a forum about how hard it is to get fights?!?! |
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1131
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:10:00 -
[163] - Quote
Kenneth Skybound wrote:Just quoting myself from reddit for visibility :P
[quote=Kenneth Skybound] Frankly, I support this - not in the current iteration by any means (and there are some things within I don't quite understand, like are the parts lost if the ship blows up, and who pays that bill?).
The person who's Dojo is being used is the one who has stocked it with all the ships, fits, charges and the like. So when the ships explode, its probably their wallet that suffers. These would all be sourced through current means on TQ rather than created out of thin air.
Wrecks are left behind - and I assume that when the pocket they are in goes away they can scanned and found? (I know little about scanning mechanics to be honest). RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
Kenneth Skybound
The War Den War Rats
116
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:12:00 -
[164] - Quote
Mangala Solaris wrote:Kenneth Skybound wrote:Just quoting myself from reddit for visibility :P
[quote=Kenneth Skybound] Frankly, I support this - not in the current iteration by any means (and there are some things within I don't quite understand, like are the parts lost if the ship blows up, and who pays that bill?).
The person who's Dojo is being used is the one who has stocked it with all the ships, fits, charges and the like. So when the ships explode, its probably their wallet that suffers. These would all be sourced through current means on TQ rather than created out of thin air. Wrecks are left behind - and I assume that when the pocket they are in goes away they can scanned and found? (I know little about scanning mechanics to be honest).
The way scanning is, the victor would have to remain long enough for it to be scanned down by someone, as wrecks themselves cannot be scanned.
Thanks for your input on item usage. I hadn't yet connected to duality to see if the contents are used up in fights to determine if they blow up at all or were merely a list of allowed items by means of putting one into the deployable. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8303
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:13:00 -
[165] - Quote
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
To the slippery slope folks; This changes nothing the people that are primarily interested in this feature aren't in space for you to fight anyway.
This do not matter. The possibility of non-consensual pvp ANYTIME in any space in new eden is a CORE principle. This idea violates that core principle. You can't un-consensually PvP me in EVE when I'm playing League, because there's nothing left in EVE for me to log in for.
CCP should not spend a bunch of time creating content for people who don't really like what EVE is in the 1st place. It's not and should never be something the 'instant gratification crowd' (like LoL players).
|
Dave Stark
6974
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:14:00 -
[166] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I was under the impression that the NEO was held on a test server? i may be mistaken, of course. You are mistaken. NEO and AT is on TQ in jove space. The player made SCL is on sisi. And AFAIK it's a shi[b][b/]t ton of effort with sometimes human errors like one team had more than allowed points :( Image SCL on TQ made by players but with better tools to do so :)
Ah right, TIL i guess! |
Narkashima
Space Farmers Cooperative MPA
6
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:15:00 -
[167] - Quote
I like it. I'm short on spare time at the moment and this would allow me to have fun anyway. And I think that's what Eve is about, right?
To the 'fights should have consequences' crowd: I agree with this, somewhat. There should be a penalty for losing. Let every contestant pay an entry fee (tbd by the Dojo owner..?) that is forfeit when lost. Winner takes the losers' entry fee, minus a percentage for the Dojo owner. Profit! :)
|
Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
292
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:16:00 -
[168] - Quote
HO LY SHE YIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
That's super cool |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8303
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:16:00 -
[169] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: This do not matter. The possibility of non-consensual pvp ANYTIME in any space in new eden is a CORE principle. This idea violates that core principle.
I have perfectly no idea what is your point. Do you want a lifetime guarantee that you may gank/hotdrop anything anywhere ? Seriously, I don't get it. Especially, because with those Dojos you actually could get the fight anytime... instead of posting in a forum about how hard it is to get fights?!?!
I'm a pve player, I don't care about fights. I care about the 'spirit' of this game I've played for the last 7 going on 8 years. This idea violates a core principle, it does no harm or potential harm to me as an EVE player what-so-ever. |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
81
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:17:00 -
[170] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: This do not matter. The possibility of non-consensual pvp ANYTIME in any space in new eden is a CORE principle. This idea violates that core principle.
I have perfectly no idea what is your point. Do you want a lifetime guarantee that you may gank/hotdrop anything anywhere ? Seriously, I don't get it. Especially, because with those Dojos you actually could get the fight anytime... instead of posting in a forum about how hard it is to get fights?!?!
You don't get a fight in a dojo, what's your point?
|
|
Masao Kurata
Z List
79
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:19:00 -
[171] - Quote
EVE is not the most fun game. You can't immediately get what you want out of EVE, you have to work for it and there are people everywhere who want to interfere with that, to take your ISK or just to screw with you because they can. Everything has to be looked upon with suspicion and you need to even the field yourself. EVE can be a lot of work, but it is the most satisfying game I know of when you achieve something.
EVE is real. This feature is not. |
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
196
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:20:00 -
[172] - Quote
Contestants should actually buy the stuff from the Dojo owner. Anything else does not make much sense since the fittings used will maybe greatly vary in value. Plus you might not even get the victor's ship back in one piece and so on...
Maybe the thing could display the killmail value of your chosen ship (+ owner defined tax rate) BEFORE the fight and a contestant would have to deposit that sum in order to fight? |
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
196
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:22:00 -
[173] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote: EVE is real. This feature is not.
This will be a fun way to interact with people and blow up REAL virtual stuff! This is SO EVE! |
Kaeda Maxwell
Carebear Luv Klub Neo-Bushido Movement
314
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:22:00 -
[174] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Kaeda Maxwell wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
To the slippery slope folks; This changes nothing the people that are primarily interested in this feature aren't in space for you to fight anyway.
This do not matter. The possibility of non-consensual pvp ANYTIME in any space in new eden is a CORE principle. This idea violates that core principle. You can't un-consensually PvP me in EVE when I'm playing League, because there's nothing left in EVE for me to log in for. CCP should not spend a bunch of time creating content for people who don't really like what EVE is in the 1st place. It's not and should never be something the 'instant gratification crowd' (like LoL players).
Exuse me? How do you know hat I like? I've been playing EVE longer then any other MMO, I've ever played and I've been playing MMO's since Ultima Online.
EVE used to have content I enjoyed it still does. But it used to be you could log in and spend an hour in EVE and have few cool frigate fights in that time. Now when I log in I have to spend an extraordinate amount of time to get at any content I actually enjoy. Or I have to go through a massive amount of effort and multibox 3 accounts just to get a level playing field. And I have a limited amount of leisure time, it's not that I don't enjoy the EVE content when I do mange to get it, it is that the amount of time/effort required to get is completely out of kilter with the amount of enjoyable content I can get out of other games in the same amount of time. EVE doesn't exist in a vacuum.
|
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3473
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:24:00 -
[175] - Quote
We all feared Veritas' leaving because we all believed he was working on brain-in-a-box.
But apparently that fear can be assuaged because he was actually just adding instances to Eve.
"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1132
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:25:00 -
[176] - Quote
Kenneth Skybound wrote:Mangala Solaris wrote:Kenneth Skybound wrote:Just quoting myself from reddit for visibility :P
[quote=Kenneth Skybound] Frankly, I support this - not in the current iteration by any means (and there are some things within I don't quite understand, like are the parts lost if the ship blows up, and who pays that bill?).
The person who's Dojo is being used is the one who has stocked it with all the ships, fits, charges and the like. So when the ships explode, its probably their wallet that suffers. These would all be sourced through current means on TQ rather than created out of thin air. Wrecks are left behind - and I assume that when the pocket they are in goes away they can scanned and found? (I know little about scanning mechanics to be honest). The way scanning is, the victor would have to remain long enough for it to be scanned down by someone, as wrecks themselves cannot be scanned. Thanks for your input on item usage. I hadn't yet connected to duality to see if the contents are used up in fights to determine if they blow up at all or were merely a list of allowed items by means of putting one into the deployable.
And on checking, the items do get used up - I ran out of ammo fast not having stocked enough. Having a way to set a cost on each item would be great too. Allows for potential isk pool prizes and so on. RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
Dave Stark
6975
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:27:00 -
[177] - Quote
It may not really be the main point, but i'd be more likely to get involved in some hilarious frig 1v1 content if i didn't think "losing this frig and probably my pod because i'm bad will cost me like 40m isk because my clone is worth nearly 10x the ship i'm flying", than this thing would.
also, it'd probably encourage me to pvp more on the whole.
just, throwing it out there like... |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
82
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:28:00 -
[178] - Quote
**** "content" **** esports **** these forums And **** this idea in particular.
|
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1132
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:29:00 -
[179] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:Contestants should actually buy the stuff from the Dojo owner. Anything else does not make much sense since the fittings used will maybe greatly vary in value. Plus you might not even get the victor's ship back in one piece and so on...
Maybe the thing could display the killmail value of your chosen ship (+ owner defined tax rate) BEFORE the fight and a contestant would have to deposit that sum in order to fight?
I can get behind this 100%. RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8304
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:32:00 -
[180] - Quote
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Kaeda Maxwell wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
To the slippery slope folks; This changes nothing the people that are primarily interested in this feature aren't in space for you to fight anyway.
This do not matter. The possibility of non-consensual pvp ANYTIME in any space in new eden is a CORE principle. This idea violates that core principle. You can't un-consensually PvP me in EVE when I'm playing League, because there's nothing left in EVE for me to log in for. CCP should not spend a bunch of time creating content for people who don't really like what EVE is in the 1st place. It's not and should never be something the 'instant gratification crowd' (like LoL players). Exuse me? How do you know hat I like? I've been playing EVE longer then any other MMO, I've ever played and I've been playing MMO's since Ultima Online. EVE used to have content I enjoyed it still does. But it used to be you could log in and spend an hour in EVE and have few cool frigate fights in that time. Now when I log in I have to spend an extraordinate amount of time to get at any content I actually enjoy. Or I have to go through a massive amount of effort and multibox 3 accounts just to get a level playing field. And I have a limited amount of leisure time, it's not that I don't enjoy the EVE content when I do mange to get it, it is that the amount of time/effort required to get is completely out of kilter with the amount of enjoyable content I can get out of other games in the same amount of time. EVE doesn't exist in a vacuum.
CCP should also not be spending time creating game mechanics for people who don't have time to play EVE. You probably joined the game when the population was much smaller (and you could get those 'fair fights'). This is no longer the case.
CCP should not be contemplating violating a core principle of the game because you can't find 1v1 frig fights. There is nothing stopping you from finding a group of other limited game time players, hopping through an easy (less than 1 minute) to find wormhole to some empty system and having at it for 15-30 minutes. Also, RvB exists.
|
|
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
22
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:33:00 -
[181] - Quote
+1 When can we expect this to appear in game?
I spend a lot of my game time helping new players the vast majority of them who move on to PvP portions of the game and I see this as a marvelous tool that I can add to the training tool box. A place where newer players can take the skills we teach and apply them in a situation where they would know for sure that they lost because of poor piloting skills, poor tactics, poor fitting skills, or poor judgement.
Yes I know these arenas would not represent the real world of PvP in game. And yet the idea of going 1 on 1 in a controlled environment of reasonably equality and free from any outside influences like off grid boosters seems to have struck a cord with many from the PvP community.
Since this would be an optional thing, something each player has to choose to participate in I simply cannot see how it would be bad for the game.
Last thought, EvE is supposed to be about player driven content. I can see many ways that this idea could help drive even more player driven content and I see no way that it would reduce player driven content. |
Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
293
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:33:00 -
[182] - Quote
Also wow, some of you are freaking illiterates. Nowhere does it say it'll be implemented on TQ. Nowhere is it even mentioned as anything but a cool DUALITY toy that could possibly SIMPLIFY TOURNAMENTS and practices.
As in- it's largely an inhouse tool that Veritas (who is leaving CCP) is leaving to be expanded on so we maybe don't have the cringefest of bad and delays that were seen during the AT.
STFU and read the damn post with your brain turned on before you go spouting off this moronic whining about "killin muh peeveepees." It's not coming to your ******* pvp, it's not coming to your ******* TQ, shut up. |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
988
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:36:00 -
[183] - Quote
Can I place a carrier in this unscanable/warpable pocket then just not PVP and assign fighters? Lieutenant Turelus Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
I post on my main... shocking I know! |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8304
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:36:00 -
[184] - Quote
Kat Ayclism wrote:Also wow, some of you are freaking illiterates. Nowhere does it say it'll be implemented on TQ. Nowhere is it even mentioned as anything but a cool DUALITY toy that could possibly SIMPLIFY TOURNAMENTS and practices.
As in- it's largely an inhouse tool that Veritas (who is leaving CCP) is leaving to be expanded on so we maybe don't have the cringefest of bad and delays that were seen during the AT.
STFU and read the damn post with your brain turned on before you go spouting off this moronic whining about "killin muh peeveepees." It's not coming to your ******* pvp, it's not coming to your ******* TQ, shut up.
It if stays on Duality I have no objection.
|
Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
90
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:39:00 -
[185] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Good things about EVE:
+ open world, unstructured full loot PVP
Bad things about EVE:
- all the rest
This prototype violates the core of the game. It would seriously be better to instance hisec missions than develop this any further.
Good things about EVE:
- fights have consequences (aka "losses")
Bad things about EVE:
- forum whiners (aka "there's only one playstyle and that's how I play!oneeleven!")
I don't see dojos breaking "has consequences"-rule. If I understand it correctly, the ships/mods used within a dojo will be destroyed for real. EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager. |
Kristoffon Ellecon
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
120
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:45:00 -
[186] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Precision Zero wrote:Where is the dislike button? I think it starts to display once you've actually tried the feature it doesn't matter how good dojos are, it really shouldn't be in eve to begin with. the premise is dislikable and no amount of "awesome features" will change that, i'd wager. note: this is sort of the opposite of burner missions, good premise with poor implimentation. this is a poor premise that's probably going to be introduced well... the irony. I disagree with you and I insist everyone be forced to use this feature whether they like it or not! |
KnowUsByTheDead
Sunlight...Through The Blight.
2074
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:46:00 -
[187] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
It if stays on Duality I have no objection.
Not empty quoting.
However we also have a company that equates SoonGäó to NeverGäó and often times blatantly ignore things until they come to a head like....Somer's RMT, Incarna, TOS/EULA clarification....or game mechanics like drones that have to be uber-abused to receive a fix.
So getting a little jittery at the thought of instancing in EvE is understandable.
In our little sandbox, we are the "instances." Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense. |
Le Monkey Face
Tengoo Uninstallation Service
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:47:00 -
[188] - Quote
YES YES YES CCP THIS IS A GREAT IDEA, don't listen to the edgy "muh non-consensual pvp" posters, they are a minority; the AT proved that there is a place for esport and competitive pvp in EVE
I know a lot of school friends that tried eve and got bored to roam to either get gatecamped, blobbed , etc it takes a lot of time to find "good fights" especially when you're a new player you have to follow the boring blob or get destroyed, that's why player retention is so low.
This could bring a lot of new players to eve, and remember that eve is a sandbox there is no "one way only" to play.
Great idea CCP this could revitalize eve. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
560
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:50:00 -
[189] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:...PvP Matchmaking...
Thank you Veritas, a solid +1 for this concept.
A lot of folk, like me, simply dont have the time or desire to spend hours looking for pew, only to get blobbed in the end.
Cant wait for you to deploy this to live so I can get my pew fix easily. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13286
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:50:00 -
[190] - Quote
So long as it stays on the test server I don't mind. Keep it off tranq though, arenas always kill PvP outside of them in every game they are added to. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
560
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:52:00 -
[191] - Quote
dexington wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? is this really the crowd you think should be rewarded?, do you really think sugar coated bullshit pvp is going to add anything to the sandbox?
screw the sandbox, its going to add to CCP financial statement.
|
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4757
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:52:00 -
[192] - Quote
CCP Prism X wrote:There's something inherently novel about submitting prototype code on a design that's quite clearly going to be controversial, and then go post about it here to create a bit of forum drama, on your second last day at CCP. Scorched Earth all the way!
Man I'm going to miss you and your Cowboy ways.
The real question is, what will he announce tomorrow? CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13286
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:53:00 -
[193] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:dexington wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? is this really the crowd you think should be rewarded?, do you really think sugar coated bullshit pvp is going to add anything to the sandbox? screw the sandbox, its going to add to CCP financial statement.
No it won't. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:54:00 -
[194] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:So long as it stays on the test server I don't mind. Keep it off tranq though, arenas always kill PvP outside of them in every game they are added to.
Nice logical fallacy, just like people don't run sites in lowsec because they can run them in high sec right? Rofl, nice tears. |
Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
69
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:54:00 -
[195] - Quote
Awesome initiative.
Personally I feel that if this was developed and expanded upon in a good way it would be a strong reason towards reactivating in the game. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
66
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:55:00 -
[196] - Quote
Turelus wrote:Can I place a carrier in this unscanable/warpable pocket then just not PVP and assign fighters?
this is actually a good question but mostly because i would like to have a carrier or a dread brawl with a few of my friends |
Varesk
Origin. Black Legion.
600
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:55:00 -
[197] - Quote
mynnna wrote: Oooooooh SNAP
Anyone opposed to this is pretty much dumb, sorry. This is the most eve-like implementation of "structured fights" that you can possibly get, and it's awesome. There's simply no room for any other opinion.
no its not awesome and nothing about it is "eve-like". if it was "eve-like" i could scan out the combatants and warp to them.
|
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
196
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:55:00 -
[198] - Quote
Turelus wrote:Can I place a carrier in this unscanable/warpable pocket then just not PVP and assign fighters?
Yes, for the entire 5 minutes. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13286
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:56:00 -
[199] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote:So long as it stays on the test server I don't mind. Keep it off tranq though, arenas always kill PvP outside of them in every game they are added to. Nice logical fallacy, just like people don't run sites in lowsec because they can run them in high sec right? Rofl, nice tears.
I have had this move pulled on me before and it was disastrous to that game. I do not want the same to happen here. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2771
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:57:00 -
[200] - Quote
First safe bubble of e-honor, next magic bullets and opt-in pvp switch. Invalid signature format |
|
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4757
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 14:57:00 -
[201] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Edward Olmops wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: This do not matter. The possibility of non-consensual pvp ANYTIME in any space in new eden is a CORE principle. This idea violates that core principle.
I have perfectly no idea what is your point. Do you want a lifetime guarantee that you may gank/hotdrop anything anywhere ? Seriously, I don't get it. Especially, because with those Dojos you actually could get the fight anytime... instead of posting in a forum about how hard it is to get fights?!?! I'm a pve player, I don't care about fights. I care about the 'spirit' of this game I've played for the last 7 going on 8 years. This idea violates a core principle, it does no harm or potential harm to me as an EVE player what-so-ever.
Please tell me how you can pvp my jita trade alt. Also, please pvp my main who is currently logged out.
Then you can come back and talk to me about your made up CORE principles. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2771
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:00:00 -
[202] - Quote
Two step wrote:Please tell me how you can pvp my jita trade alt. Also, please pvp my main who is currently logged out.
Then you can come back and talk to me about your made up CORE principles.
Ability to stab your trading alt in his/her face in his/her CQ would be like best addition ever. Invalid signature format |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8309
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:01:00 -
[203] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:So long as it stays on the test server I don't mind. Keep it off tranq though, arenas always kill PvP outside of them in every game they are added to.
This is the lesson to be learned here.
|
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
196
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:01:00 -
[204] - Quote
Varesk wrote: no its not awesome and nothing about it is "eve-like". if it was "eve-like" i could scan out the combatants and warp to them.
It has to be eve-like, because even mentioning it instantly creates huge drama and a sizeable threadnought.
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:01:00 -
[205] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: I have had this move pulled on me before and it was disastrous to that game. I do not want the same to happen here.
Nice appeal to emotion and logical fallacy, you are obviously biased because your corporation is into "non-consensual" pvp.
You forgot that people that go/live in null or in the fw warzone won't magically disappear but having to roam for hours to find good fights is terrible for the game it lowers the player retention and give them no short term objectives, people "poaching" them to brave newbies and rvb doesn't help.
This is a sandbox, your way to play is not the only way to play deal with it and adapt brobro. |
Varesk
Origin. Black Legion.
602
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:04:00 -
[206] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:
This is a sandbox, your way to play is not the only way to play deal with it and adapt brobro.
adding instances is not a sandbox, that is a theme park. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8309
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:04:00 -
[207] - Quote
Two step wrote:
Please tell me how you can pvp my jita trade alt.
When ti trades
Quote: Also, please pvp my main who is currently logged out.
When it logs on
Quote:Then you can come back and talk to me about your made up CORE principles.
So you are saying that you (a former CSM member) do not believe that non-consensual pvp (and the risk thereof) IN SPACE is a core principle. That's what we are talking about here. Ships IN SPACE in New Eden that (for 5 minutes) can't be scanned down and pvp'd.
This is basically instancing, it violates a core principle of EVE (in the EXACT same way that non-scannable Tech3 ships did) and therefore should not happen. Make ships in the pocket HARD to scan (like Tech3s are now) and I have no objection.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13291
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:08:00 -
[208] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: I have had this move pulled on me before and it was disastrous to that game. I do not want the same to happen here.
Nice appeal to emotion and logical fallacy, you are obviously biased because your corporation is into "non-consensual" pvp. You forgot that people that go/live in null or in the fw warzone won't magically disappear but having to roam for hours to find good fights is terrible for the game it lowers the player retention and give them no short term objectives, people "poaching" them to brave newbies and rvb doesn't help. This is a sandbox, your way to play is not the only way to play deal with it and adapt brobro.
In every single game that has added arenas the PvP in all other areas was sucked into them. The more more that join the arenas the fewer targets there are to hunt so more people join the arenas and we end up with a runaway effect untill we have everyone in arenas. This has happened in every single game that has added them and will happen in this one too. FW will die, RvB will die and null will also be impacted.
This is a terrible thing to have on Tranq and always will be. This thing is as Un-EVE as it gets and is utterly incompatible with EVE core gameplay. It will not add more players to the game and the same people who get bored with hunting for targets will get bored with arenas after the same length of time. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Masao Kurata
Z List
80
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:08:00 -
[209] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Make ships in the pocket HARD (as all hell) to scan (like Tech3s are now) and I have no objection.
That's not even necessary, all you have to do is deploy a scan inhibitor so that people won't know they're warping to a silly play fight. |
S'No Flake
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
41
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:11:00 -
[210] - Quote
Varesk wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
This is a sandbox, your way to play is not the only way to play deal with it and adapt brobro.
adding instances is not a sandbox, that is a theme park.
And adding flying carpets to WoW makes it a sandbox |
|
Manic Velocity
Scout's Regiment
57
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:11:00 -
[211] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? Well, have I got the extremely rough prototype for you to try out on Duality! Introducing: Dojos!
...
We should cater as much as possible to the participant that wants a quick, easy PvP fix.
In a game that encourages and prides itself on setting long-term goals, I'm weary of the idea of instant gratification. On top of that, this particular prototype sounds like it caters to a very specific group of players, who I'm willing to bet are in the minority of New Eden.
I worry that this will create a slippery slope when other small groups start to complain that their particular preferred style of play is not catered to. Should we also cater as much as possible to the participant that wants to farm rats without the looming fear of being ganked? Should we also cater as much as possible to the participant that thinks gate camps are unfair?
CCP Veritas wrote:Once matched up with another player in the dojo, youGÇÖre both whisked away directly from station to your ships, assembled from the items in the dojo, in a deadspace pocket placed randomly in space thatGÇÖs guarded from people warping to it - theyGÇÖll warp to the dojo deployable if they try.
For all intents and purposes, this is instanced gameplay. Creating a secluded area of the game world that restricts the spectrum of player interaction in order to create a level playing field for a select few. I don't think I can adequately express how much I dread even the mere mention of instances in EVE's sandbox. EVE's non-instanced gameplay is primarily what attracts me to the game, away from every other MMO. And I mean that very literally. I can't bring myself to play other MMO's where instances serve to restrict interaction, and dissolve the concept of a massive virtual world.
I have a quote in my bio that I refer to from time to time: "If you find yourself in a fair and equal fight, you have both f***ed up."
EVE is not about fair and equal fights. The Alliance Tournament and NEO are the obvious exception, as they are not inherent to the game's design.
EVE is not about instant gratification, and that's surely to its credit.
All of that having been said...
If dojos were to remain on Duality, or even Singularity; if dojos never made it onto TQ, I could bring myself to accept them. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
356
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:11:00 -
[212] - Quote
Does this include a CREST endpoint for the matches? |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
3089
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:12:00 -
[213] - Quote
This idea is bad, and you should feel bad. "i advice you to go spit on the back of someone else because you are fall on the wrong horse." - Meio Rayliegh |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:13:00 -
[214] - Quote
Varesk wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
This is a sandbox, your way to play is not the only way to play deal with it and adapt brobro.
adding instances is not a sandbox, that is a theme park.
It's not a theme park because you still have choice, this is made for people that want to get a "good" fight in a decent amount of time what is wrong with that? Do you dislike the AT and NEO too?
I'm not sure if I can take your opinion seriously if all you do is log in to jump to a cyno and press F1, good for you tho.
Competitive pvp has its place in eve, deal with it and adapt. |
Masao Kurata
Z List
80
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:14:00 -
[215] - Quote
I can only hope that this entire thread is a CCP approved troll to make the departure of a developer more of an event by reviving a prototype from the graveyard for bad ideas. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13291
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:15:00 -
[216] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Varesk wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
This is a sandbox, your way to play is not the only way to play deal with it and adapt brobro.
adding instances is not a sandbox, that is a theme park. It's not a theme park because you still have choice, this is made for people that want to get a "good" fight in a decent amount of time what is wrong with that? Do you dislike the AT and NEO too? I'm not sure if I can take your opinion seriously if all you do is log in to jump to a cyno and press F1, good for you tho. Competitive pvp has its place in eve, deal with it and adapt.
So where is my choice to backstab you and bring in a buddy in a rattlesnake?
As said, instances are not a sandbox, they are restricting options. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8309
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:16:00 -
[217] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:This thing is as Un-EVE as it gets and is utterly incompatible with EVE core gameplay. It will not add more players to the game and the same people who get bored with hunting for targets will get bored with arenas after the same length of time.
Another fine point. Catering to the instant gratification crowd is bad because (being all ADHD) they don't stay with anything for long AND you just ticked off your non ADHD crowd by violating a core principle of the game.
This is not to say their aren't good aspects. Killable Dojos = good. ships exploding for any reason = good.
But CCP risks the 'High Sec Incursion effect" here ie "I can run incursions in high sec and make close to or above (or way above) what I can in actually dangerous space, so screw going to dangerous space, I'm just gonna X up in 5 incursion community chats and go with the 1st fleet that takes me". The existence of high sec incursions exacerbated the mistake caused by this change because it gave people an 'easier alternative that's just as good or better'.
Why roam and risk not getting kills when you are sure of a dojo fight?
|
ElectronHerd Askulf
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
9
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:16:00 -
[218] - Quote
A few questions.
1. Where do the items stocking the Dojo come from?
2. Are items destroyed in Dojo battles actually destroyed?
3. What happens to those items when a Dojo is itself destroyed?
4. Would this have a reinforce timer?
5. What happens if a Dojo is destroyed while a battle in ongoing in it?
Frankly, I'm rather unlikely to participate in any Dojo battles myself - I play other games for instant-gratification, in consequential PvP, and those games have more engaging combat systems. I think, however, that the impact of this feature on the Eve sandbox depends heavily on details such as I ask above. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
673
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:17:00 -
[219] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Precision Zero wrote:Where is the dislike button? I think it starts to display once you've actually tried the feature it doesn't matter how good dojos are, it really shouldn't be in eve to begin with. the premise is dislikable and no amount of "awesome features" will change that, i'd wager. note: this is sort of the opposite of burner missions, good premise with poor implimentation. this is a poor premise that's probably going to be introduced well... the irony.
Winthorp wrote:Precision Zero wrote:Where is the dislike button? THIS. I can't believe this is happening actually. Am very disappoint. The slippery slope has begun...
Basically sums up the feelings I have for this. This is an "Arena". Pure and simply. This should not be present in EVE. It violates the premise of "PvP happens anywhere and with anyone at any time."
A few questions: 1. What is the intended area of space for this feature? High Sec is about the only place I can think of that this might be used given the 1v1 nature.
2. What does this new development mean for the "Duel" mechanic CCP implemented? It effectively offers x number of pilots the ability to PvP anywhere they choose under the overarching premise I mentioned above. Anywhere, anytime, anyone, etc etc.
3. Given the somewhat broken dueling mechanic due to the neutral alts/logi/links issue; Does this mean that CCP doesn't intend to address the neutral alt issue at all and this is a simply a workaround/avoidance of that?
4. What is the end goal for this feature? I don't see this helping people to learn how to PvP in the "un-instanced EVE" as all of the fairness and equality they have grown used to or expect to find will NOT be present. This is hiding, from users (especially new ones) what EVE PvP is.
So many more issues with this...why CCP, why?
OT -- my Like butan in Chrome is not displaying for some reason :/
I'm right behind you |
malcovas Henderson
THoF
279
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:19:00 -
[220] - Quote
CCP you lack Balance with diversity, for Arenas |
|
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1133
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:19:00 -
[221] - Quote
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:A few questions.
1. Where do the items stocking the Dojo come from?
2. Are items destroyed in Dojo battles actually destroyed?
3. What happens to those items when a Dojo is itself destroyed?
4. Would this have a reinforce timer?
5. What happens if a Dojo is destroyed while a battle in ongoing in it?
Frankly, I'm rather unlikely to participate in any Dojo battles myself - I play other games for instant-gratification, in consequential PvP, and those games have more engaging combat systems. I think, however, that the impact of this feature on the Eve sandbox depends heavily on details such as I ask above.
1) The market via the dojo owners assets.wallet
2) yes.
3) Ask me again in a couple of days when the one I reinforced comes out.
4) Its a hack job on the Depot, so it shares its 48 hours.
5) I too want to know this. RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
Kenneth Skybound
The War Den War Rats
116
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:19:00 -
[222] - Quote
Manic Velocity wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? Well, have I got the extremely rough prototype for you to try out on Duality! Introducing: Dojos!
...
We should cater as much as possible to the participant that wants a quick, easy PvP fix. In a game that encourages and prides itself on setting long-term goals, I'm weary of the idea of instant gratification. On top of that, this particular prototype sounds like it caters to a very specific group of players, who I'm willing to bet are in the minority of New Eden. I worry that this will create a slippery slope when other small groups start to complain that their particular preferred style of play is not catered to. Should we also cater as much as possible to the participant that wants to farm rats without the looming fear of being ganked? Should we also cater as much as possible to the participant that thinks gate camps are unfair? CCP Veritas wrote:Once matched up with another player in the dojo, youGÇÖre both whisked away directly from station to your ships, assembled from the items in the dojo, in a deadspace pocket placed randomly in space thatGÇÖs guarded from people warping to it - theyGÇÖll warp to the dojo deployable if they try. For all intents and purposes, this is instanced gameplay. Creating a secluded area of the game world that restricts the spectrum of player interaction in order to create a level playing field for a select few. I don't think I can adequately express how much I dread even the mere mention of instances in EVE's sandbox. EVE's non-instanced gameplay is primarily what attracts me to the game, away from every other MMO. And I mean that very literally. I can't bring myself to play other MMO's where instances serve to restrict interaction, and dissolve the concept of a massive virtual world. I have a quote in my bio that I refer to from time to time: "If you find yourself in a fair and equal fight, you have both f***ed up."EVE is not about fair and equal fights. The Alliance Tournament and NEO are the obvious exception, as they are not inherent to the game's design. EVE is not about instant gratification, and that's surely to its credit. All of that having been said...If dojos were to remain on Duality, or even Singularity; if dojos never made it onto TQ, I could bring myself to accept them.
Just curious how you'd feel if they weren't impenetrable deadspaces?
Also, please don't harp on about "minority want this, don't do it." The majority of players are in high sec space. Only a minority manage wormholes. Only a minority do reverse engineering. Only a minority solo pvp frequently. Only a minority fly black ops. Only a minority use large railguns frequently.
The minority card can be pulled on almost anything and isn't in itself a good reason to not work on something. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3881
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:22:00 -
[223] - Quote
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:A few questions.
1. Where do the items stocking the Dojo come from?
2. Are items destroyed in Dojo battles actually destroyed?
3. What happens to those items when a Dojo is itself destroyed?
4. Would this have a reinforce timer?
5. What happens if a Dojo is destroyed while a battle in ongoing in it?
Frankly, I'm rather unlikely to participate in any Dojo battles myself - I play other games for instant-gratification, in consequential PvP, and those games have more engaging combat systems. I think, however, that the impact of this feature on the Eve sandbox depends heavily on details such as I ask above.
1: From the person who stocks the Dojo. Who either bought them from the market, or built them.
2: yes.
3: drop, probably.
4: yes. (atm. This is a rough prototype)
5: Battles don't happen /in/ the dojo. The dojo is an enabler to get people to deadspaces. As for what happens to those, I think that's undefined right now. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:22:00 -
[224] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:In every single game that has added arenas the PvP in all other areas was sucked into them. The more more that join the arenas the fewer targets there are to hunt so more people join the arenas and we end up with a runaway effect untill we have everyone in arenas. This has happened in every single game that has added them and will happen in this one too. FW will die, RvB will die and null will also be impacted.
This is a terrible thing to have on Tranq and always will be. This thing is as Un-EVE as it gets and is utterly incompatible with EVE core gameplay. It will not add more players to the game and the same people who get bored with hunting for targets will get bored with arenas after the same length of time.
No, the problem with arenas in wow, since it's the prime example, is that there is no incentive to go in the middle of the map looking for something.
This won't remove FW, this won't remove plexes, this won't remove corp roams, this won't remove solo pvp against the odds, it's an additional option.
Wow has no fw, no plexes, no corp roams, no solo pvp against the odds.
For example GW2 has a "competitive" pvp system outside the pve map but a lot of people are still roaming the WvW map, why? Because there is an incentive to go to the WvW map but for wow you can stay in the cap all day, so it's a terrible analogy you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
The AT is "un-eve" and it's still pretty popular and a lot of people outside eve were interested, eve has clunky legacy stuff just because CCP is trying to fix it doesn't mean it's "un-eve" because you don't like that gameplay.
This is a sandbox, your way to play is not the way to play simply deal with it.
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:24:00 -
[225] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: So where is my choice to backstab you and bring in a buddy in a rattlesnake?
As said, instances are not a sandbox, they are restricting options.
It's next to my option to bomb your nullsec assets and have access to your API to gank your bearalts.
|
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2773
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:25:00 -
[226] - Quote
I would like to know if plans regarding sov that Steve confirmed to be worked on and apparently CSM liked them, if they are equally awesome as this sh!t. Not that I care much about null and sov but if Veritas of all devs came up with arenas I fear things that hide inside other CCP brains.
Although it's possible that Veritas simply went postal from this all brain power he has and this whole fail is just his call for help. Invalid signature format |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1658
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:26:00 -
[227] - Quote
The unable to warp to from outside is what makes it WRONG in eve. It breaks everythign eve is about :( "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13292
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:27:00 -
[228] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote:In every single game that has added arenas the PvP in all other areas was sucked into them. The more more that join the arenas the fewer targets there are to hunt so more people join the arenas and we end up with a runaway effect untill we have everyone in arenas. This has happened in every single game that has added them and will happen in this one too. FW will die, RvB will die and null will also be impacted.
This is a terrible thing to have on Tranq and always will be. This thing is as Un-EVE as it gets and is utterly incompatible with EVE core gameplay. It will not add more players to the game and the same people who get bored with hunting for targets will get bored with arenas after the same length of time. No, the problem with arenas in wow, since it's the prime example, is that there is no incentive to go in the middle of the map looking for something. This won't remove FW, this won't remove plexes, this won't remove corp roams, this won't remove solo pvp against the odds, it's an additional option. Wow has no fw, no plexes, no corp roams, no solo pvp against the odds.For example GW2 has a "competitive" pvp system outside the pve map but a lot of people are still roaming the WvW map, why? Because there is an incentive to go to the WvW map but for wow you can stay in the cap all day, so it's a terrible analogy you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. The AT is "un-eve" and it's still pretty popular and a lot of people outside eve were interested, eve has clunky legacy stuff just because CCP is trying to fix it doesn't mean it's "un-eve" because you don't like that gameplay. This is a sandbox, your way to play is not the way to play simply deal with it.
I played SWG when they added arenas, I saw all the PvP outside of it dry up in a matter of weeks. The same will happen here. This isn't about us stopping you from doing something you want to do in game its about stopping something that will massively damage the game in the long run.
We already have ways of setting up 1v1 matches in the duel systems, go use that.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
182
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:27:00 -
[229] - Quote
Neat feature. If it were possible to have one in a worm hole I would likely install one, but sadly it seems to require docked status. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:28:00 -
[230] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:The unable to warp to from outside is what makes it WRONG in eve. It breaks everythign eve is about :(
Waaa waaaa I can't drop my XxXxXELITEBLOBxXxXxX during the AT and press F1, HTFU. |
|
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2773
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:29:00 -
[231] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: So where is my choice to backstab you and bring in a buddy in a rattlesnake?
As said, instances are not a sandbox, they are restricting options.
It's next to my option to bomb your nullsec assets and have access to your API to gank your bearalts.
baltec could give you his API if he wanted, but you cannot allow him to gank you inside dojo. Do you see a difference? One is a player choice to do something or not, another is invisible wall of themepark mechanics. Invalid signature format |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:31:00 -
[232] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: I played SWG when they added arenas, I saw all the PvP outside of it dry up in a matter of weeks. The same will happen here. This isn't about us stopping you from doing something you want to do in game its about stopping something that will massively damage the game in the long run.
We already have ways of setting up 1v1 matches in the duel systems, go use that.
Not like the jedigate killed SWG right, this won't damage the game in the long run because you still have to go to null/low if you already live/go there.
The non-consensual pvpers will have less pvp focused targets to blob and that's good, you will still kill the same amount of bears, stop whining and adapt. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
793
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:31:00 -
[233] - Quote
Please. The sky is not falling. Adding instanced combat arenas in Eve won't kill PVP. If that were the case, having Singularity up, an environment where everything is free and nearly everything in the market is seeded would have strangled Eve a long time ago. You can't play the "arena combat" card while Singularity is a thing.
Not to mention, dojos don't allow you to contest moons, FW plexes, or sov -- all of which require PVP to take, hold, or participate in. This is not an exhaustive list, either.
Dojos would be a wonderful thing to have if they hit TQ. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8310
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:31:00 -
[234] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: So where is my choice to backstab you and bring in a buddy in a rattlesnake?
As said, instances are not a sandbox, they are restricting options.
It's next to my option to bomb your nullsec assets and have access to your API to gank your bearalts.
Baltec is describing why this idea is un-EVElike. In EVe, you are supposed to be able to back stab, to no honor agreements and such. An EVE player is supposed to always be in fear of such an occurrence while in space. This DoJo thing doesn't allow that by design, that makes the design bad on it's face.
No if you could challenge someone to a Dojo dual, get them in a ship in this unscannable pocket, the reinforce your own dojo yourself with alts and that somehow LOCKS the opponent in that pocket for 5 minutes (that even logging off can't fix) as you yourself log of, THAT would be EVE-like lol.
This fair and uninterruptible fight BS doesn't belong in this game. I say that as someone who doesn't care one way or another for pvp.
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:33:00 -
[235] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: So where is my choice to backstab you and bring in a buddy in a rattlesnake?
As said, instances are not a sandbox, they are restricting options.
It's next to my option to bomb your nullsec assets and have access to your API to gank your bearalts. baltec could give you his API if he wanted, but you cannot allow him to gank you inside dojo. Do you see a difference? One is a player choice to do something or not, another is invisible wall of themepark mechanics.
Do you also cry because you can't blob the AT? And also you are wrong, if the odds of him giving me his api were the same as the odds of people that will grief the dojo system we wouldn't need invisible wall, they are here because without them the competitive and fair setup is nulled.
Is it too hard to understand? |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:36:00 -
[236] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Baltec is describing why this idea is un-EVElike. In EVe, you are supposed to be able to back stab, to no honor agreements and such. An EVE player is supposed to always be in fear of such an occurrence while in space. This DoJo thing doesn't allow that by design, that makes the design bad on it's face.
No if you could challenge someone to a Dojo dual, get them in a ship in this unscannable pocket, the reinforce your own dojo yourself with alts and that somehow LOCKS the opponent in that pocket for 5 minutes (that even logging off can't fix) as you yourself log of, THAT would be EVE-like lol.
This fair and uninterruptible fight BS doesn't belong in this game. I say that as someone who doesn't care one way or another for pvp.
You don't have to be edgy and backstabby to play eve, that's a common misconception.
This is a sandbox your way to play is not the way to play, CCP is fixing the problem of solo pvp being terrible, deal with it. |
|
CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3515
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:37:00 -
[237] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Does this include a CREST endpoint for the matches?
No, but from what I understand that wouldn't be to hard to get in. Just was not needed to prototype the feature. CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @CCP_FoxFour |
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13294
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:37:00 -
[238] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: So where is my choice to backstab you and bring in a buddy in a rattlesnake?
As said, instances are not a sandbox, they are restricting options.
It's next to my option to bomb your nullsec assets and have access to your API to gank your bearalts. baltec could give you his API if he wanted, but you cannot allow him to gank you inside dojo. Do you see a difference? One is a player choice to do something or not, another is invisible wall of themepark mechanics. Do you also cry because you can't blob the AT? And also you are wrong, if the odds of him giving me his api were the same as the odds of people that will grief the dojo system we wouldn't need invisible wall, they are here because without them the competitive and fair setup is nulled. Is it too hard to understand?
So its not sandbox then is it? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8310
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:38:00 -
[239] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Baltec is describing why this idea is un-EVElike. In EVe, you are supposed to be able to back stab, to no honor agreements and such. An EVE player is supposed to always be in fear of such an occurrence while in space. This DoJo thing doesn't allow that by design, that makes the design bad on it's face.
No if you could challenge someone to a Dojo dual, get them in a ship in this unscannable pocket, the reinforce your own dojo yourself with alts and that somehow LOCKS the opponent in that pocket for 5 minutes (that even logging off can't fix) as you yourself log of, THAT would be EVE-like lol.
This fair and uninterruptible fight BS doesn't belong in this game. I say that as someone who doesn't care one way or another for pvp.
You don't have to be edgy and backstabby to play eve, that's a common misconception.
And who said anything about being edgy? i am definitely not.
But the ABILITY to backstab is a part of EVE's core concept. Dojos violate that concept.
Quote: This is a sandbox your way to play is not the way to play, CCP is fixing the problem of solo pvp being terrible, deal with it.
We are dealing with it, but explaining to them why this is a terribly bad idea. Your problem is that yo think you will get something out of this, therefore the fact that this could be bad for many aspects of the game doesn't bother you. It's basically selfishness (which infects all "solo" types i know of). |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
356
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:41:00 -
[240] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:Does this include a CREST endpoint for the matches? No, but from what I understand that wouldn't be to hard to get in. Just was not needed to prototype the feature.
I want to throw this out there for people to ponder. If this ever does hit TQ and we have a CREST endpoint, training new pilots how to fly will be much easier. You can review the fights after with a tool like null-sec.com. While some people will be using this to get their PVP fix, I will be using this as a training tool. |
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:42:00 -
[241] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: So its not sandbox then is it?
Eve stopped being a sandbox because of the AT?
Jenn aSide wrote: We are dealing with it, but explaining to them why this is a terribly bad idea. Your problem is that yo think you will get something out of this, therefore the fact that this could be bad for many aspects of the game doesn't bother you. It's basically selfishness (which infects all "solo" types).
I don't expect anything from it when I go roam for hours, same here but thanks for the logical fallacy and generalization (pro-tip : people have been soloing for years).
Also thanks for your opinion, funny how all the people complaining about this are not part of the target demographic.
ayyy lmao |
Ais Hellia
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
47
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:45:00 -
[242] - Quote
Talking about unEve features, first of all it's undestroyable stations with untouchable assets, null-secs have been enjoying for years. Why don't you whine about this? |
Manic Velocity
Scout's Regiment
58
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:45:00 -
[243] - Quote
Kenneth Skybound wrote:Manic Velocity wrote:Words and stuff... Just curious how you'd feel if they weren't impenetrable deadspaces? Also, please don't harp on about "minority want this, don't do it." The majority of players are in high sec space. Only a minority manage wormholes. Only a minority do reverse engineering. Only a minority solo pvp frequently. Only a minority fly black ops. Only a minority use large railguns frequently. The minority card can be pulled on almost anything and isn't in itself a good reason to not work on something.
Deadspace pockets are already penetrable via probes. Making dojos penetrable wouldn't change anything that already exists, so I would have to question why dev time was spent on them in the first place.
And I absolutely will harp on catering to the minority when it has the potential to upset the majority. It's the same reason I, and many other people don't want more dev time spent on WiS. I've never heard anyone say they wished EVE had more instanced PvP arenas, but I'm seeing a lot of people saying that they shouldn't exist in EVE.
But again, as I said at the end of my original post, if dojos were to remain on the test servers, away from TQ, I don't think I would have a problem with them. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13296
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:46:00 -
[244] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: So its not sandbox then is it?
Eve stopped being a sandbox because of the AT?
You keep on going on about how we shouldn't stop you from doing what you want in the sandbox yet you seem fine with removing our sandbox.
This thing is not compatible with the sandbox in its current state. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
760
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:50:00 -
[245] - Quote
I may have missed it - if you boundary violate do you get popped? For training purposes I hope there is just a way to flag, with the ships getting docked or popped at the end of the timer. CCP .. always first with the wrong stuff CSM .. CCP Shills with a vacation plan
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
797
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:50:00 -
[246] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: This thing is not compatible with the sandbox in its current state.
Neither is Singularity, and yet Eve seems to be okay despite this. How are dojos any different than logging onto Singularity and doing the same thing? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:51:00 -
[247] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: So its not sandbox then is it?
Eve stopped being a sandbox because of the AT? You keep on going on about how we shouldn't stop you from doing what you want in the sandbox yet you seem fine with removing our sandbox. This thing is not compatible with the sandbox in its current state.
No, you used some flawed logic about being able to do everything I did the same.
It's not compatible with your gameplay, I'm sad for you but this is a sandbox, sorry you are not part of the target demographic for this feature. |
XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
268
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:51:00 -
[248] - Quote
Not in keeping with EVE. A very, very bad idea.
One can already warp to a safespot and 1v1 with other people. Sure, they can be probed down... but that's EVE. |
Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
1171
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:51:00 -
[249] - Quote
I proposed something similar to this nearly a decade ago. Now it only needs to be fully integrated in the game including betting and twitch integration. Maybe finally something of value for the WIS screen? Mashie Saldana Dominique Vasilkovsky
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13296
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:51:00 -
[250] - Quote
Querns wrote:baltec1 wrote: This thing is not compatible with the sandbox in its current state.
Neither is Singularity, and yet Eve seems to be okay despite this. How are dojos any different than logging onto Singularity and doing the same thing?
They would be on the main server. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
66
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:52:00 -
[251] - Quote
Ais Hellia wrote:Talking about unEve features, first of all it's undestroyable stations with untouchable assets, null-secs have been enjoying for years. Why don't you whine about this?
because CCP has already hinted at destroying stations |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
797
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:52:00 -
[252] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Querns wrote:baltec1 wrote: This thing is not compatible with the sandbox in its current state.
Neither is Singularity, and yet Eve seems to be okay despite this. How are dojos any different than logging onto Singularity and doing the same thing? They would be on the main server. My point is that if you want no-consequence PvP, you can already log into Singularity and do it there.
Dojos don't add anything new to Eve in this regard. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kael Attrell
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:54:00 -
[253] - Quote
This is great, please someone keep working on this and get us up to 10v10 versions or so. I have no doubt that you can easily see past all the ridiculous slippery slope / sandbox complaints. |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2774
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:55:00 -
[254] - Quote
Querns wrote:My point is that if you want no-consequence PvP, you can already log into Singularity and do it there.
Dojos don't add anything new to Eve in this regard.
Until they show up on TQ in which moment they will remove "non-" from non-consensual pvp. Invalid signature format |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13296
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:55:00 -
[255] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: So its not sandbox then is it?
Eve stopped being a sandbox because of the AT? You keep on going on about how we shouldn't stop you from doing what you want in the sandbox yet you seem fine with removing our sandbox. This thing is not compatible with the sandbox in its current state. No, you used some flawed logic about being able to do everything I did the same. It's not compatible with your gameplay, I'm sad for you but this is a sandbox, sorry you are not part of the target demographic for this feature.
Its not a sandbox element if it is an instance.
I have just as much right to gank you as you have to go do a 1v1. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Ais Hellia
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
47
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:55:00 -
[256] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Ais Hellia wrote:Talking about unEve features, first of all it's undestroyable stations with untouchable assets, null-secs have been enjoying for years. Why don't you whine about this? because CCP has already hinted at destroying stations
lol "hinted" after 10 years you gladly used them |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13299
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:56:00 -
[257] - Quote
Querns wrote:baltec1 wrote:Querns wrote:baltec1 wrote: This thing is not compatible with the sandbox in its current state.
Neither is Singularity, and yet Eve seems to be okay despite this. How are dojos any different than logging onto Singularity and doing the same thing? They would be on the main server. My point is that if you want no-consequence PvP, you can already log into Singularity and do it there. Dojos don't add anything new to Eve in this regard.
They do on tranq. There should never be a way to shield yourself from enemy actions while you are PvPing on tranq. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8312
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:57:00 -
[258] - Quote
Querns wrote:baltec1 wrote: This thing is not compatible with the sandbox in its current state.
Neither is Singularity, and yet Eve seems to be okay despite this. How are dojos any different than logging onto Singularity and doing the same thing?
Singularity has no impact on the main (Tranq hosted) game. Dojos on singularity or duality, fine, not on Tranquility. |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2775
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:57:00 -
[259] - Quote
Btw, Veritas has a real chance to go from one of most respected and liked dev to most hated one in record time. How's that for a legacy? Invalid signature format |
F4bske
Mining Industry Exile Foundation The Camel Empire
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 15:57:00 -
[260] - Quote
Arena like pvp in EVE ? YES PLEASE! |
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8312
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:00:00 -
[261] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: So its not sandbox then is it?
Eve stopped being a sandbox because of the AT? Jenn aSide wrote: We are dealing with it, but explaining to them why this is a terribly bad idea. Your problem is that yo think you will get something out of this, therefore the fact that this could be bad for many aspects of the game doesn't bother you. It's basically selfishness (which infects all "solo" types).
I don't expect anything from it when I go roam for hours, same here but thanks for the logical fallacy and generalization (pro-tip : people have been soloing for years). Also thanks for your opinion, funny how all the people complaining about this are not part of the target demographic.
ayyy lmao
The "Target Demographic" is and should be EVE players (as a whole), not some selfish special interest group who doesn't care about everyone else. |
Ais Hellia
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
47
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:00:00 -
[262] - Quote
Querns wrote:[quote=baltec1][quote=Querns][quote=baltec1]
Dojos don't add anything new to Eve in this regard.
advanced dojos can add tools of auto-checking point values, restricted fits and implants allowed into battleground and other AT instruments. sticking to simple 1vs1, it is a useless tool of course |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
197
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:01:00 -
[263] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: I have had this move pulled on me before and it was disastrous to that game. I do not want the same to happen here.
Nice appeal to emotion and logical fallacy, you are obviously biased because your corporation is into "non-consensual" pvp. You forgot that people that go/live in null or in the fw warzone won't magically disappear but having to roam for hours to find good fights is terrible for the game it lowers the player retention and give them no short term objectives, people "poaching" them to brave newbies and rvb doesn't help. This is a sandbox, your way to play is not the only way to play deal with it and adapt brobro. In every single game that has added arenas the PvP in all other areas was sucked into them. The more more that join the arenas the fewer targets there are to hunt so more people join the arenas and we end up with a runaway effect untill we have everyone in arenas. This has happened in every single game that has added them and will happen in this one too. FW will die, RvB will die and null will also be impacted. This is a terrible thing to have on Tranq and always will be. This thing is as Un-EVE as it gets and is utterly incompatible with EVE core gameplay. It will not add more players to the game and the same people who get bored with hunting for targets will get bored with arenas after the same length of time.
He really doesn't get it. The big blue doughnut has killed EvE and is "utterly incompatible with EVE core gameplay. It will not add more players to the game and the same people who get bored with hunting for targets" will continue to remain as bored as they are now. This will give your entire group of line members something to actually do while the rest of you sit on overturned chairs and stroke each other's ego.
And p.s. FW won't die. It has the most content in the game with system constantly pushing 2k kills/day for almost the last 2 years bc we actually fight for and defend our systems instead of hide behind timers and tidi blue ball fest. But in moments where it's hard to find something that isn't linked garmur faggotry or Razor/Snuff/angry Russians/etc style of blobbing this would fun to quickly bounce over to and get a few fights to keep the skills honed.
Keep wearing those blinders Baltec1, maybe they'll cone off and you'll remember how fun EvE used to be when there was constant content of all forms going on --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:03:00 -
[264] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Its not a sandbox element if it is an instance.
I have just as much right to gank you as you have to go do a 1v1.
No, no you don't, you have ways to gank people within a setup, just like being docked dojos aren't part of that setup.
Do you also complain about not being to gank the AT teams? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
802
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:04:00 -
[265] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Querns wrote:baltec1 wrote: This thing is not compatible with the sandbox in its current state.
Neither is Singularity, and yet Eve seems to be okay despite this. How are dojos any different than logging onto Singularity and doing the same thing? Singularity has no impact on the main (Tranq hosted) game. Dojos on singularity or duality, fine, not on Tranquility. You all are missing the point.
If I want to engage in consequence free PvP, I have an option to do so already. Your arguments are that adding dojos would magick into existence a way to have consequence free PvP, an option that has never been available in Eve before. I am saying that this option already exists, and people are already partaking of it. (Albeit with triage-supported vindicators -- something that the point system and manual, real-world goods stocking of dojos would handily defeat, I might add!)
You can't just segment off Singularity from your argument and pretend it doesn't exist while simultaneously decrying the addition of non-interdictable, low-to-no-consequence PvP. This is the silliest form of myopia. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:05:00 -
[266] - Quote
Instead of fighting on tranquility, more and more people are opting to fight on Singularity. Regardless of whether or not assets are copied over, this is, effectively, a second shard.
Even larger groups are using it, apparently, to hold their own contests. (see: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=361122 )
The difference between that and a Dojo, is that with the Dojo, actual Tranquility assets are destroyed in the process, just like the AT.
Moving contests and tournaments to Singularity is apparently growing in popularity, yet people are crying chicken little over a game mechanic that would bring that asset destruction back to the primary universe.
Sure, scrap the Dojo's, but you have no right to complain when Singularity is reborn into a consentual-PvP server. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:06:00 -
[267] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: The "Target Demographic" is and should be EVE players (as a whole), not some selfish special interest group who doesn't care about everyone else.
So the industry expansion should somehow pander to every single other part of eve, same for nullsec change right? They should also pander to people that run l4 missions in hs, somehow?
Try to make sense, or you know you could deal with the fact that CCP is adding something to the game that you don't like, HTFU like we say in eve. |
Torneach Structor
Emrys Enterprises
139
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:08:00 -
[268] - Quote
I have my reservations about this.
But as an alliance- or corp-created structure that is only anchorable in Low or Null, I think it would be fine to have then.
I think that way you still keep it exclusively as player-run content, there is still risk involved, the owners need to protect their arena, and people won't be able to just hang around in hisec to jump into these things on a whim. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13301
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:08:00 -
[269] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: I have had this move pulled on me before and it was disastrous to that game. I do not want the same to happen here.
Nice appeal to emotion and logical fallacy, you are obviously biased because your corporation is into "non-consensual" pvp. You forgot that people that go/live in null or in the fw warzone won't magically disappear but having to roam for hours to find good fights is terrible for the game it lowers the player retention and give them no short term objectives, people "poaching" them to brave newbies and rvb doesn't help. This is a sandbox, your way to play is not the only way to play deal with it and adapt brobro. In every single game that has added arenas the PvP in all other areas was sucked into them. The more more that join the arenas the fewer targets there are to hunt so more people join the arenas and we end up with a runaway effect untill we have everyone in arenas. This has happened in every single game that has added them and will happen in this one too. FW will die, RvB will die and null will also be impacted. This is a terrible thing to have on Tranq and always will be. This thing is as Un-EVE as it gets and is utterly incompatible with EVE core gameplay. It will not add more players to the game and the same people who get bored with hunting for targets will get bored with arenas after the same length of time. He really doesn't get it. The big blue doughnut has killed EvE and is "utterly incompatible with EVE core gameplay. It will not add more players to the game and the same people who get bored with hunting for targets" will continue to remain as bored as they are now. This will give your entire group of line members something to actually do while the rest of you sit on overturned chairs and stroke each other's ego. And p.s. FW won't die. It has the most content in the game with system constantly pushing 2k kills/day for almost the last 2 years bc we actually fight for and defend our systems instead of hide behind timers and tidi blue ball fest. But in moments where it's hard to find something that isn't linked garmur faggotry or Razor/Snuff/angry Russians/etc style of blobbing this would fun to quickly bounce over to and get a few fights to keep the skills honed. Keep wearing those blinders Baltec1, maybe they'll cone off and you'll remember how fun EvE used to be when there was constant content of all forms going on
It will die just like the PvP in all of those other games did.
The instant gratification mob are by far the worst crowd to cater to, soon after adding 1v1s they will demand 10v10s. Before long we will find PvP rank systems and then all PvP will happen in the arenas. It has happened time after time after time in the exact same way to every single game that added arenas. We joined EVE because it is not like all of those countless other games. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Sydon Audeles
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:09:00 -
[270] - Quote
I appreciate that you put in the work to demo this, but I think it's pretty fundamentally antithetical to what EVE is about. It's another way to lower the risk of PVP and remove people from interacting with the universe, even for a short amount of time, and that's moving in the wrong direction. You want to honor 1v1 at a safe? Go for it. That's how my own alliance has done in-house events in the past. And if someone wanders through and scans us down, that's more content, that's not A Bad Thing. This adds a new level of exploitability and complexity to create a system for dueling that isn't needed.
Specific complaints with the stated implementation: teleporting from station to anywhere is bad. You should have to undock. "Click a menu button to teleport to content" is riding too close to theme park MMO land. Also, having a perfectly safe deadspace pocket. If there's a sig and I scan it down, I can follow the acceleration gate and catch the guy if he didn't warp off in time. Presumably I will not be able to land at this dojo and use it to follow the guy into the pocket, meaning he is perfectly safe in space. That should never happen in EVE.
I'm happy that you guys let us know so early in the process that you were talking about this, and if it helps you in your further Alliance Tournament implementations, great. But I'm honestly hoping the result is that you get an overwhelming response of "we don't want this" and you're able to drop the idea and move on to more awesome ideas without feeling like you wasted too much effort here.
|
|
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
197
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:10:00 -
[271] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: So its not sandbox then is it?
Eve stopped being a sandbox because of the AT? Jenn aSide wrote: We are dealing with it, but explaining to them why this is a terribly bad idea. Your problem is that yo think you will get something out of this, therefore the fact that this could be bad for many aspects of the game doesn't bother you. It's basically selfishness (which infects all "solo" types).
I don't expect anything from it when I go roam for hours, same here but thanks for the logical fallacy and generalization (pro-tip : people have been soloing for years). Also thanks for your opinion, funny how all the people complaining about this are not part of the target demographic.
ayyy lmao The "Target Demographic" is and should be EVE players (as a whole), not some selfish special interest group who doesn't care about everyone else. For someone who doesn't PVP or care about it you sure are vocal about everyone conforming to your own vision of EvE (hey Baltec alt). Your eve is not my eve and it will never be. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the game. There are countless eve players who don't enjoy jumping into a camp with triage carriers on standby. There are countless people who would love to run gambling rings and tournament chains. This is the perfect situation and tool that has bee requested to add a completely whole new level of organized player content. Just because you can't be a giant ******* and **** in someone's Cheerios you're getting all upset. How much more selfish can you be. --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13301
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:10:00 -
[272] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: Its not a sandbox element if it is an instance.
I have just as much right to gank you as you have to go do a 1v1.
No, no you don't, you have ways to gank people within a setup, just like being docked dojos aren't part of that setup. Do you also complain about not being to gank the AT teams?
This arena would not let us enter it. So yes, it stops our sandbox. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Dave Stark
6980
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:11:00 -
[273] - Quote
I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up. |
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:12:00 -
[274] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: It will die just like the PvP in all of those other games did.
Do please feel free at any time to provide a list of sources showing PROOF of these overly dramatic claims. You keep repeating it, yet never once have I seen a link showing the financial downfall of a game being directly linked to the addition of arenas.
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:13:00 -
[275] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: This arena would not let us enter it. So yes, it stops our sandbox.
I can't bomb your nullsec assets so it's not a sandbox, I can't blob the AT teams so it's not a sandbox, I can't kill people in station so it's not a sandbox, I can run pve missions so it's not a sandbox, etc
If you think that eve stopped being a sandbox because of stuff like AT then maybe eve isn't the right game for you, HTFU.
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:15:00 -
[276] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up.
"Mommy, why are people in a sandbox game not doing the same thing as me" - you
HTFU |
Tragot Gomndor
Rise of Cerberus Cerberus Unleashed
58
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:16:00 -
[277] - Quote
Yeah, arena season 1 finaly on the PTR. I hope we gonna get a nice mount :D 0.0 = GOONS = SAAAMMMMEEE!!!!1111222 |
Dave Stark
6981
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:17:00 -
[278] - Quote
Regnag Leppod wrote:baltec1 wrote: It will die just like the PvP in all of those other games did.
Do please feel free at any time to provide a list of sources showing PROOF of these overly dramatic claims. You keep repeating it, yet never once have I seen a link showing the financial downfall of a game being directly linked to the addition of arenas.
you may have slightly missed the point.
world pvp died in those games. see the beginning of wow before BGs and Arenas... world pvp in tarren mill etc, that **** vanished so quickly after things like battlegrounds and arenas were added.
eve is essentially built on that "world pvp" that has evaporated in pretty much every game that has these kind of instanced pvp systems in them. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13303
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:17:00 -
[279] - Quote
Regnag Leppod wrote:baltec1 wrote: It will die just like the PvP in all of those other games did.
Do please feel free at any time to provide a list of sources showing PROOF of these overly dramatic claims. You keep repeating it, yet never once have I seen a link showing the financial downfall of a game being directly linked to the addition of arenas.
SWG and WoW are two very big examples. Then we have Tamriel, an EVE like game that imploded when they catered to the instant gratification mob. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Dave Stark
6981
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:18:00 -
[280] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up. "Mommy, why are people in a sandbox game not doing the same thing as me" - you HTFU
i haven't once said that, but you carry on thinking i did. |
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13303
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:19:00 -
[281] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: This arena would not let us enter it. So yes, it stops our sandbox.
I can't bomb your nullsec assets so it's not a sandbox, I can't blob the AT teams so it's not a sandbox, I can't kill people in station so it's not a sandbox, I can run pve missions so it's not a sandbox, etc If you think that eve stopped being a sandbox because of stuff like AT then maybe eve isn't the right game for you, HTFU.
1. yes you can
2. AT has nothing at all to do with what happens on tranq
3. what has this to do with anything?
Point remains, you are stopping me from entering the arena to kill you, this goes against the sandbox. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
46
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:19:00 -
[282] - Quote
Firstly, to all the people writing "CCP shouldn't be wasting time on this" understand that the developers are given 20% (Or is it 10%?) of their daily time to work on their own projects. The projects have to be related to EVE and add content, but they are able to literally do whatever they want. CCP Greyscale made a bomb that instead of doing damage, created a massive collision sphere and bumbs ships inside the explosion radius. For all of the butthurt over titan pos bumping, could you just imagine the threadnaught if he released this?
For the people who basically copy paste the same argument that this is instanced gaming, where is your rage at Project Legion and Valkyrie? What about DUST? Last I checked DUST still has an effect of EVE mechanics. Please tell me how EVE has disappeared since that came about. Please tell me how you will really react if CCP manages to get Legion, Valkyrie, and EVE in the same server universe.
The one aspect that would still separate EVE dojos from the arenas of other MMOs is the fact that if you lose the fight, you lose the ship. Just like every other wreck in this game, someone, somewhere is out the ISK and has to remake the money. You die in a WoW arena? You still have all your epic loot. You bring a AT prize frigate to an e-honor duel and lost it, then it is gone. In fact, I think that MIGHT HAVE JUST HAPPENED
http://themittani.com/news/one-less-rare-ship-utu-down
As for instanced gaming, please tell me how Jabber and other similar 3rd party programs have not turned nullsec into the giant doughnut. People are looking for content so hard, that last night Pandemic Legion dropped supers on a TEST cruiser fleet. Not a t2 fleet, not a massive fleet, just a simple cruiser roam that warranted 8 super carriers to put it out.
Veritas just threw an ultimately inconsequential tool onto a test server and said "Go play with this if you want to, I made it and Im never going to see you again" |
Ais Hellia
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
47
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:20:00 -
[283] - Quote
Yup i still can't get why people keep calling sandbox the game where all personal and corporate assets are perfectly safe at the station even if the said station get conquered by rival forces? that's pretty re tard ed |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
12
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:20:00 -
[284] - Quote
This isn't a good idea. Improve FW if you want pvp to be more easily accessible. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:20:00 -
[285] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Regnag Leppod wrote:baltec1 wrote: It will die just like the PvP in all of those other games did.
Do please feel free at any time to provide a list of sources showing PROOF of these overly dramatic claims. You keep repeating it, yet never once have I seen a link showing the financial downfall of a game being directly linked to the addition of arenas. you may have slightly missed the point. world pvp died in those games. see the beginning of wow before BGs and Arenas... world pvp in tarren mill etc, that **** vanished so quickly after things like battlegrounds and arenas were added. eve is essentially built on that "world pvp" that has evaporated in pretty much every game that has these kind of instanced pvp systems in them.
Flawed logic, there is no incentive to go out in the middle of the map for wow, it's not the same for eve.
Another example : GW2 has an "out of the pve map" pvp system using your flawed logic it would kill the open world pvp, a lot of people are roaming the open world wvw map, why ? Because there is an incentive to go there, dojos won't remove anything.
Just because wow has a terrible open world design doesn't mean dojos in eve aren't viable, but nice logical fallacy. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8314
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:21:00 -
[286] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: So its not sandbox then is it?
Eve stopped being a sandbox because of the AT? Jenn aSide wrote: We are dealing with it, but explaining to them why this is a terribly bad idea. Your problem is that yo think you will get something out of this, therefore the fact that this could be bad for many aspects of the game doesn't bother you. It's basically selfishness (which infects all "solo" types).
I don't expect anything from it when I go roam for hours, same here but thanks for the logical fallacy and generalization (pro-tip : people have been soloing for years). Also thanks for your opinion, funny how all the people complaining about this are not part of the target demographic.
ayyy lmao The "Target Demographic" is and should be EVE players (as a whole), not some selfish special interest group who doesn't care about everyone else. For someone who doesn't PVP or care about it you sure are vocal about everyone conforming to your own vision of EvE (hey Baltec alt). Your eve is not my eve and it will never be. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the game. There are countless eve players who don't enjoy jumping into a camp with triage carriers on standby. There are countless people who would love to run gambling rings and tournament chains. This is the perfect situation and tool that has bee requested to add a completely whole new level of organized player content. Just because you can't be a giant ******* and **** in someone's Cheerios you're getting all upset. How much more selfish can you be.
One of the ways a poster can know he's winning is when the counter-poster guy starts going on about "play styles" and crap lol
We are talking about a CORE ASPECT of EVE Online being mooted. Everyone who plays EVE (and actually likes what it is) should be concerned about this, even if it's 'not something that affects them personally".
In the same way as a PVE player I dislike high sec incursions (though I have partaken in those, an individual should just not be able t make that kind of isk while being protected by CONCORD), as an EVE player in general i don't want to see our game turned into some instanced BS where people are too busy doing 'fair fights' to do anything else.
If you introduce a mechanic that enforces fairness in a game that is BUILT upon the idea that fairness isn't even a thing (ie the 1st 11 years of EVE), you are killing the spirit of that game. Some of you can't see that because IMO you are short sighted. The same Shortsightedness saddled us with Dominion SOV (which man of you LOVED at 1st).
Calmer and smarter heads should prevail here. CCP should keep instancing and Arenas out of the game with the only exception being a few tournament events. |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
198
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:21:00 -
[287] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up.
Because what this dojo is, is a tool given to players to create, manage, and grow their own personal tournaments in between the AT and the NEO.
It's about creating one more exciting layer of content for anyone and everyone to get involved with....if they choose. Miners to provide minerals for the construction of the dojo (hopefully), haulers to move ships and fittings, market traders to provide the necessary equipment and the list goes on.
--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
71
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:21:00 -
[288] - Quote
I just want to say that I have wanted a tournament bubble since the first time I saw an alliance try to run an internal tournament. The one thing I could never figure out was how to solve the boundary violation problem of "How do you get inside for the fight without getting boundary violated?"
Since we do like to spectate our arranged fights, is there a way that it can be set up so people who want to watch can watch without interfering? Like, a "here are the matches in progress; go to spectator's box" sort of thing? |
Seismic Stan
Freebooted Junkworks
507
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:22:00 -
[289] - Quote
I love this idea.
It's something which has been kicked around repeatedly over the years and discussed at length by the blogging community (Blog Banter 27: EVE Quick Matches, July 2011 - summarised here).
I entirely understand the concerns some have regarding arenas/dojos being the antithesis of EVE's open world concept, but that really depends on the implementation. As this prototype uses a deployable which can be interfered with, it sounds like that issue is largely sidestepped.
I really hope a middle ground can be found that would enable this to be deployed on Tranquility, it could open up all sorts of sandbox possibilities and new playstyles such as professional gladiator, fight organiser and quartermaster, not to mention the out-of-game streaming and commentating potential.
I also like the idea of being able to use the deployable as a kind of mobile spaceship showroom or market stall, which would allow the sale of fitted ships with some face-to-face interaction, letting folk go for 'test drives' and so on.
In any case, it could be a shot in the arm for bored veterans and rookies alike and might well engage an under-represented player demographic (those who like EVE but can't devote hours to roam for the vague chance of a fight which may or may not turn out to be a rewarding experience). Attracting new players to EVE and adding a new way to enjoy content and player interaction can only be a healthy thing. EVE Online: The Text Adventure --- GameSkinny Correspondent --- Freebooted Blogger |
Dave Stark
6981
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:23:00 -
[290] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Regnag Leppod wrote:baltec1 wrote: It will die just like the PvP in all of those other games did.
Do please feel free at any time to provide a list of sources showing PROOF of these overly dramatic claims. You keep repeating it, yet never once have I seen a link showing the financial downfall of a game being directly linked to the addition of arenas. you may have slightly missed the point. world pvp died in those games. see the beginning of wow before BGs and Arenas... world pvp in tarren mill etc, that **** vanished so quickly after things like battlegrounds and arenas were added. eve is essentially built on that "world pvp" that has evaporated in pretty much every game that has these kind of instanced pvp systems in them. Flawed logic, there is no incentive to go out in the middle of the map for wow, it's not the same for eve. Another example : GW2 has an "out of the pve map" pvp system using your flawed logic it would kill the open world pvp, a lot of people are roaming the open world wvw map, why ? Because there is an incentive to go there, dojos won't remove anything. Just because wow has a terrible open world design doesn't mean dojos in eve aren't viable, but nice logical fallacy.
look at low sec, low sec is essentially what a pvp server is on wow. an area of space where you can attack anyone on the "other team" (defined in eve as, anyone that isn't you) for no incentive.
so no, it isn't a flawed logic. |
|
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:23:00 -
[291] - Quote
Never played WoW, nor SWG. Still waiting for hard evidence showing decrease in numbers or subs, or some solid factual evidence showing that such changes destroyed games.
Guild Wars 2 added custom arenas, and their World vs. World is still going strong, with the custom arenas not used nearly as much. In effect, the opposite of some claims here. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
3092
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:23:00 -
[292] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:[quote=baltec1] I can't bomb your nullsec assets
Why not? Is your F1 key broken? "i advice you to go spit on the back of someone else because you are fall on the wrong horse." - Meio Rayliegh |
Dave Stark
6981
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:24:00 -
[293] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up. Because what this dojo is, is a tool given to players to create, manage, and grow their own personal tournaments in between the AT and the NEO. It's about creating one more exciting layer of content for anyone and everyone to get involved with....if they choose. Miners to provide minerals for the construction of the dojo (hopefully), haulers to move ships and fittings, market traders to provide the necessary equipment and the list goes on.
except a peroidic tournament isn't even comparable to a tool that can be used to essentially replace how we pvp in eve. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13303
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:24:00 -
[294] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up. Because what this dojo is, is a tool given to players to create, manage, and grow their own personal tournaments in between the AT and the NEO. It's about creating one more exciting layer of content for anyone and everyone to get involved with....if they choose. Miners to provide minerals for the construction of the dojo (hopefully), haulers to move ships and fittings, market traders to provide the necessary equipment and the list goes on.
We can already do this and have done for well over a decade. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8314
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:25:00 -
[295] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up. "Mommy, why are people in a sandbox game not doing the same thing as me" - you HTFU
You realize it's childish to hide behind such an argument on a grown folks forum right?
No one cares what you do. This isn't about you anyways. it's about not wanting the developer of this game to violate one of the games core (and founding) principles for any reason some of us like EVE and want it's core to remain intact even as it evolves (as any game must).
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:25:00 -
[296] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Point remains, you are stopping me from entering the arena to kill you, this goes against the sandbox.
Everything you said is wrong, nice damage control.
You still don't understand, you can gank people within a setup, being in a station and in dojos isn't part of the setup.
I want to trade in station all day, you want to gank me what happens? Is eve not a sandbox because you can't gank me? Nice logic. |
Dave Stark
6984
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:27:00 -
[297] - Quote
EVE. everyone vs everyone (except in deadspace pockets for your honourable 1v1s) |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
3093
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:27:00 -
[298] - Quote
Regnag Leppod wrote:
Guild Wars 2 added custom arenas, and their World vs. World is still going strong, with the custom arenas not used nearly as much. In effect, the opposite of some claims here.
Guild Wars 2 also never had open world PvP. Both sPvP and WvW are separate game modes that one must elect to enter into. GW2 partitions its PvP away from its PvE, exactly as this line of development in EVE will eventually lead to, and exactly as it has in other games in which it has been introduced. "i advice you to go spit on the back of someone else because you are fall on the wrong horse." - Meio Rayliegh |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:28:00 -
[299] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: look at low sec, low sec is essentially what a pvp server is on wow. an area of space where you can attack anyone on the "other team" (defined in eve as, anyone that isn't you) for no incentive.
so no, it isn't a flawed logic.
Yep no incentive at all except:
- capital production
- shiny pve runners ganks
- fw
- l5 missions
- drug production
etc
Absolutely no incentive to go in lowsec and defend your space. /s
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13307
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:28:00 -
[300] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: Point remains, you are stopping me from entering the arena to kill you, this goes against the sandbox.
Everything you said is wrong, nice damage control. You still don't understand, you can gank people within a setup, being in a station and in dojos isn't part of the setup. I want to trade in station all day, you want to gank me what happens? Is eve not a sandbox because you can't gank me? Nice logic.
I can destroy your market.
We are talking about undocked ships, blocking people from interfering in your dojo goes against everything about EVE. You should never be safe like this in space especially in PvP. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
198
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:28:00 -
[301] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: 1. yes you can
2. AT has nothing at all to do with what happens on tranq
3. what has this to do with anything?
Point remains, you are stopping me from entering the arena to kill you, this goes against the sandbox.
On the contrary. The whole purpose of the thing is that you enter and (try to) kill me. :-D Only you have to come without a cyno and/or a 20-man gang. And actually there could be a fun fight for BOTH parties involved which is rather rare otherwise.
About the sandbox issue: Are in-game contracts to be condemned? Because the game mechanism guarantees you cannot cheat? (as long as everyone reads the thing) Is the market to be condemned? Because no one can just steal from the market? Isn't that completely un-sandboxy???
|
Sydon Audeles
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:29:00 -
[302] - Quote
As we were discussing this in my alliance IRC, someone brought up this idea as an alternative: Make a deployable object that gives a data-dump of CREST info like we had for the alliance tournament for everything happening within a certain distance of it - say, 200km. To offset the additional computing time/server cost, make it cost Aurum. Then you can setup your little tournaments around the deployable, get all that extra data to look at and analyze (and check for people breaking your tournament's rules) and have fun with, all without changing fundamental EVE mechanics whatsoever. You could also use this as a training tool - setup one of these things, duel someone a few times, then use a tool like null-sec.com's ATXII replays to point out what they did wrong or how they could have handled a situation better.
This moves forward the goal of helping people do cool things with private tournaments or events, but doesn't screw with core EVE ideas or mechanics. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
3093
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:29:00 -
[303] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: I want to trade in station all day, you want to gank me what happens? Is eve not a sandbox because you can't gank me? Nice logic.
I can destroy your target market, and thus the ability for you to profit from it. There is no game mechanic that protects you from this. That is the trading equivalent of ganking someone.
Careful throwing that 'logic' word around when you don't know what it means. "i advice you to go spit on the back of someone else because you are fall on the wrong horse." - Meio Rayliegh |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13307
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:30:00 -
[304] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:baltec1 wrote: 1. yes you can
2. AT has nothing at all to do with what happens on tranq
3. what has this to do with anything?
Point remains, you are stopping me from entering the arena to kill you, this goes against the sandbox.
On the contrary. The whole purpose of the thing is that you enter and (try to) kill me. :-D Only you have to come without a cyno and/or a 20-man gang. And actually there could be a fun fight for BOTH parties involved which is rather rare otherwise. About the sandbox issue: Are in-game contracts to be condemned? Because the game mechanism guarantees you cannot cheat? (as long as everyone reads the thing) Is the market to be condemned? Because no one can just steal from the market? Isn't that completely un-sandboxy???
Both the market and contracts can be used to scam people. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
200
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:31:00 -
[305] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
One of the ways a poster can know he's winning is when the counter-poster guy starts going on about "play styles" and crap lol
We are talking about a CORE ASPECT of EVE Online being mooted. Everyone who plays EVE (and actually likes what it is) should be concerned about this, even if it's 'not something that affects them personally".
In the same way as a PVE player I dislike high sec incursions (though I have partaken in those, an individual should just not be able t make that kind of isk while being protected by CONCORD), as an EVE player in general i don't want to see our game turned into some instanced BS where people are too busy doing 'fair fights' to do anything else.
If you introduce a mechanic that enforces fairness in a game that is BUILT upon the idea that fairness isn't even a thing (ie the 1st 11 years of EVE), you are killing the spirit of that game. Some of you can't see that because IMO you are short sighted. The same Shortsightedness saddled us with Dominion SOV (which man of you LOVED at 1st).
Calmer and smarter heads should prevail here. CCP should keep instancing and Arenas out of the game with the only exception being a few tournament events.
You realize that people having their own play style in the EvE sandbox is EvE' s core. It's their entire marketing strategy that you can be, do, act however you want in game. And guess what, if you want to be a ring leader you'd now have the chance....
Mind blown --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:32:00 -
[306] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
You realize it's childish to hide behind such an argument on a grown folks forum right?
No one cares what you do. This isn't about you anyways. it's about not wanting the developer of this game to violate one of the games core (and founding) principles for any reason some of us like EVE and want it's core to remain intact even as it evolves (as any game must).
You can't have it both ways, there is a lot of "un-eve" stuff, most of it is because of the legacy code and game design.
If CCP fix POS, will you complain about POS being easier to use? Is it un-eve to have easy POS management? Because you can check the industry change thread and some people were complaining that having a terrible UI for industry was a good thing.
You are not part of the target demographic of this change if you don't solo pvp, people have been complaining for years that CCP don't care about solo pvp now they are fixing it and of course blobbers are the first to complain.
HTFU |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13307
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:33:00 -
[307] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:You realize that people having their own play style in the EvE sandbox is EvE' s core. It's their entire marketing strategy that you can be, do, act however you want in game. And guess what, if you want to be a ring leader you'd now have the chance.... Mind blown
You can do that already.
Blocking people from being backstabbing vagrants is taking away from the sandbox. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Ais Hellia
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
47
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:33:00 -
[308] - Quote
Sydon Audeles wrote: Then you can setup your little tournaments around the deployable, get all that extra data to look at and analyze (and check for people breaking your tournament's rules)
You should be able to check the rule requirments BEFORE the fight starts not after or it is a waste of time |
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:33:00 -
[309] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote: Guild Wars 2 also never had open world PvP. Both sPvP and WvW are separate game modes that one must elect to enter into.
This is fact, as it is with many MMOs. It does not, however, invalidate that the introduction of custom arenas didn't kill World vs. World. |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
47
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:35:00 -
[310] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up. "Mommy, why are people in a sandbox game not doing the same thing as me" - you HTFU You realize it's childish to hide behind such an argument on a grown folks forum right? No one cares what you do. This isn't about you anyways. it's about not wanting the developer of this game to violate one of the games core (and founding) principles for any reason some of us like EVE and want it's core to remain intact even as it evolves (as any game must).
By this logic (as well as some of your previous posts) then wouldn't any program used outside of being logged into the EVE client be a violation of the games core(and founding) principles? I mean by your reasoning, instanced gaming is any situation in which players can interact with game mechanics with zero interference (and risk) from other players.
Jabber lets you play EVE Offline, EVEMon basically give you the advantage for long term skill training and sp optimization. Dotlan provides information on system activity and traffic, allowing you to avoid dangerous systems, EFT allows you to optimize ship fittings without having to physically own the ship, EVE Survival turns PvE into a Prima Game Guide, EVECentral allows you to inspect universe markets as compared to just a region, and yet none of these are made available in the game client, none of these contain an element of risk, and yet every one of these give distinct and significant advantages to players who use them, as compared to the new players.
|
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13307
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:35:00 -
[311] - Quote
Regnag Leppod wrote:Domanique Altares wrote: Guild Wars 2 also never had open world PvP. Both sPvP and WvW are separate game modes that one must elect to enter into.
This is fact, as it is with many MMOs. It does not, however, invalidate that the introduction of custom arenas didn't kill World vs. World.
The fact that WvW ended in the games that did have WvW when they added arenas does make that argument invalid. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:36:00 -
[312] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: If CCP fix POS, will you complain about POS being easier to use?
You weren't around for the day the whole universe collapsed into a ball of fire when they changed the font, were you.
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:36:00 -
[313] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Bamboozlement wrote: I want to trade in station all day, you want to gank me what happens? Is eve not a sandbox because you can't gank me? Nice logic.
I can destroy your target market, and thus the ability for you to profit from it. There is no game mechanic that protects you from this. That is the trading equivalent of ganking someone. Careful throwing that 'logic' word around when you don't know what it means.
Nice reading comprehension, I specifically said gank (you know, press F1 till ship explode) and a bigger capital/fast moving market protects you from this so you are wrong.
If I want to spin my ship all day in station and you want to gank me, what happens, is eve not a sandbox because you can't gank me? Nice logic. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13307
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:38:00 -
[314] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:
By this logic (as well as some of your previous posts) then wouldn't any program used outside of being logged into the EVE client be a violation of the games core(and founding) principles? I mean by your reasoning, instanced gaming is any situation in which players can interact with game mechanics with zero interference (and risk) from other players.
Jabber lets you play EVE Offline, EVEMon basically give you the advantage for long term skill training and sp optimization. Dotlan provides information on system activity and traffic, allowing you to avoid dangerous systems, EFT allows you to optimize ship fittings without having to physically own the ship, EVE Survival turns PvE into a Prima Game Guide, EVECentral allows you to inspect universe markets as compared to just a region, and yet none of these are made available in the game client, none of these contain an element of risk, and yet every one of these give distinct and significant advantages to players who use them, as compared to the new players.
All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:38:00 -
[315] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Regnag Leppod wrote:Domanique Altares wrote: Guild Wars 2 also never had open world PvP. Both sPvP and WvW are separate game modes that one must elect to enter into.
This is fact, as it is with many MMOs. It does not, however, invalidate that the introduction of custom arenas didn't kill World vs. World. The fact that WvW ended in the games that did have WvW when they added arenas does make that argument invalid.
My guess is that you won't provide statistics because you can't, and that for every game you claim crashed and burned because of this spectre of yours, I could find ex-players who place the blame on issues completely unrelated. |
Sydon Audeles
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:39:00 -
[316] - Quote
Ais Hellia wrote:Sydon Audeles wrote: Then you can setup your little tournaments around the deployable, get all that extra data to look at and analyze (and check for people breaking your tournament's rules) You should be able to check the rule requirments BEFORE the fight starts not after or it is a waste of time
You can do that now. Have them fly out in their ships to your safe spot, have the "referee" board each ship and check the fits, then they re-board their ships and go to town. I was talking more about seeing if someone flew past a boundary distance and wasn't noticed during the fight, for instance. |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
47
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:40:00 -
[317] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
What I wrote
All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do.
I don't think I've ever had a ship destroyed while I was on dotlan looking for alternate routes through a danger zone and thus blocked someone from atttacking me...
And dojos will allow people to attack you, just one at a time :P (yay humor!) |
S'No Flake
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
41
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:42:00 -
[318] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:[quote=baltec1] I can't bomb your nullsec assets
Why not? Is your F1 key broken?
No but your assets are indestructible. Even if we capture the station, your assets are still safe.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13307
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:43:00 -
[319] - Quote
Regnag Leppod wrote:
My guess is that you won't provide statistics because you can't, and that for every game you claim crashed and burned because of this spectre of yours, I could find ex-players who place the blame on issues completely unrelated.
Feel free to find a SWG vet that will tell you that world pvp ended for any other reason than because they added that accursed battleground. Hell, in space the only place you ever found PvP was in the space battleground, I spent hours flying around in a mining ship while pvp active and not a single person went for me. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Black Panpher
Ganja Inc
1792
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:43:00 -
[320] - Quote
This is NOT EvE. |
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13309
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:44:00 -
[321] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
What I wrote
All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do. I don't think I've ever had a ship destroyed while I was on dotlan looking for alternate routes through a danger zone and thus blocked someone from atttacking me... And dojos will allow people to attack you, just one at a time :P (yay humor!)
It didn't block people from attacking you in EVE.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:45:00 -
[322] - Quote
Black Panpher wrote:This is NOT EvE.
THIS
IS
SPARTA
|
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3475
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:46:00 -
[323] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: Its not a sandbox element if it is an instance.
I have just as much right to gank you as you have to go do a 1v1.
No, no you don't, you have ways to gank people within a setup, just like being docked dojos aren't part of that setup. Do you also complain about not being to gank the AT teams?
You keep saying "logic" and trying to name a few logical fallacies you cribbed from Wikipedia, whilst literally every argument you make is a text-book example of one (this here being an Appeal to Equality / equivalence on your beginners list). It's quite amazing and I don't know if it's a clever troll or you're just way out of your depth in an argument and can't express it. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Ais Hellia
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:46:00 -
[324] - Quote
Sydon Audeles wrote:Ais Hellia wrote:Sydon Audeles wrote: Then you can setup your little tournaments around the deployable, get all that extra data to look at and analyze (and check for people breaking your tournament's rules) You should be able to check the rule requirments BEFORE the fight starts not after or it is a waste of time You can do that now. Have them fly out in their ships to your safe spot, have the "referee" board each ship and check the fits, then they re-board their ships and go to town. I was talking more about seeing if someone flew past a boundary distance and wasn't noticed during the fight, for instance.
it takes too much time and you can't check implants boundary violations should be executed as in AT (immediate elimination) what will you do if you notice boundary violations AFTER match fininshed? rematch or what? that takes too much time too and can be unfair to for example surprise setups with their opponents having a lot of time to figure out how to deal with them
Well i would like to have a full set of AT tools, not some surrogates with limited abilities |
Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
295
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:48:00 -
[325] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up. BECAUSE THIS IS A TOOL FOR THOSE THINGS.
Veritas does A LOT of work to make the AT function at all. Without him it's going to be a bit of a shitshow. So he made a tool that CCP can expand on to do all the coddling for them that he currently has to do.
It's an AMAZING resource.
As fricking stated, it's an extremely early PROTOTYPE. There's ZERO indication of it coming to TQ at all- let alone soon if it were- but I would overwhelmingly wager that if it were, it'd be so that they can finally delete the Jove space and just hold tourneys - quite possibly more frequently- in Empire space.
It has the potential to simplify every single aspect of the AT on CCP's end (again, super important with Veritas leaving), and eliminate silly things like a ship actually slipping through with an illegal mod. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8325
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:50:00 -
[326] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:You realize that people having their own play style in the EvE sandbox is EvE' s core. It's their entire marketing strategy that you can be, do, act however you want in game. And guess what, if you want to be a ring leader you'd now have the chance.... Mind blown
Where does this even come from? No one is talking about "play styles" or you playing like me (you wanna run lvl 5 missions? because thats what I'm doing this week).
We are talking about the design and purpose of the game. Dojos don't fit because of the "unprobable deadspace bubble" aspect.
The way the corp principle in question (non-consensual pvp) works is that ANYWHERE in New Eden where a ship is in space, that ship is subject to unwanted pvp interaction. This also means that you can be 'backstabbed' anywhere also.
EVE succeeds because it doesn't do what other MMOs tend to do. While this would be a small thing, it goes counter to what makes EVE great and therefore shouldn't happen.
|
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
291
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:50:00 -
[327] - Quote
This is very similar to an idea I posted about putting toys in the sandbox. As long as the players are running the arena and not an "NPC entity" this opens up options for interactions between the players.
I appreciate the concerns about killing off world PVP BUT this isn't Trammel and more 1 out of every 10 players in UO got beyond "leveling their Raven". EVE is a PVP game where a terrifyingly large portion of the player base already doesn't PEW. Anything that might get a few more people into popping ships is good.
|
Seamus Donohue
EVE University Ivy League
59
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:51:00 -
[328] - Quote
Guys? Read the post.
CCP Veritas wrote:2. Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself
{snip}
ThereGÇÖs a personal deployable that you can obtain from item redeption on Duality that when put into space and stocked with ships and modules (itGÇÖs huge), provides players docked in that system with the ability to fight each other with those ships and modules in fair environment. Whoever is deploying this dojo has to shove ships and modules into it. Somebody has to buy or manufacture those ships and modules. The minerals and moon goo to make those ships and modules must come from player activity. All this is is a way for one player to subsidize another player's PvP.
Dojos on Duality might have stuff automatically spawned into them but only because it's Duality. CCP Veritas is not proposing that Dojos on Tranquility will have free stuff spawned into them by CCP. Additionally, Veritas explicitly states "Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself", implying that the dojo can be attacked. It's only the deadspace matches that cannot be interfered with.
Nobody is proposing bringing Simulator Mode to Tranquility; Simulator Mode is already provided by Singularity and Duality.
---
Now, the only concern I have is that if this is deployed to Tranquility, then this can be used as a method to leave a station that is currently camped. You can get your pod and implants out into space, bypassing the station camp, or get a force of pilots out into space and then warp to the station camp and optimals, rather than be forced to either use instant undock bookmarks (or in the case of bubbles, be forced to fight on the station undock spawn point). Survivor of Teskanen. -áFan of John Rourke.
I have video tutorials for EVE Online on my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/SeamusDonohueEVE |
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
199
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:52:00 -
[329] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: About the sandbox issue: Are in-game contracts to be condemned? Because the game mechanism guarantees you cannot cheat? (as long as everyone reads the thing) Is the market to be condemned? Because no one can just steal from the market? Isn't that completely un-sandboxy???
Both the market and contracts can be used to scam people.[/quote]
Both the markets and contracts LIMIT the precious sandbox freedom and create a TON of opportunities (including opportunities to scam) by doing so. Imagine you were in Jita offering stuff for sale and you would have to trust people sending you money after you handed over the goods. Would be totally cool and also possible to scam if you were NOT automatically charged the price wouldn't it?
Those Dojos will just be another tool that helps players to create content and fun. And explosions. And some will always scam, grief with this. Whatever it will look like in the end.
But. I think the most crucial point is...
Is there any CCP dev crazy enough to even touch the code of this after "a couple of months" of THAT after CCP Veritas is leaving? |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8325
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:52:00 -
[330] - Quote
Toriessian wrote:This is very similar to an idea I posted about putting toys in the sandbox. As long as the players are running the arena and not an "NPC entity" this opens up options for interactions between the players.
I appreciate the concerns about killing off world PVP BUT this isn't Trammel and more 1 out of every 10 players in UO got beyond "leveling their Raven". EVE is a PVP game where a terrifyingly large portion of the player base already doesn't PEW. Anything that might get a few more people into popping ships is good.
You don't change the heart and soul of a game on "might". And in EVE, everyone PVPs, pvp isn't just 'pew'.
|
|
Ais Hellia
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:53:00 -
[331] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:[quote=Yun Kuai] EVE succeeds
So much success lately
"We are looking for a new lead programmer ready to dig into a 10-year old code" |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:53:00 -
[332] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
What I wrote
All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do. I don't think I've ever had a ship destroyed while I was on dotlan looking for alternate routes through a danger zone and thus blocked someone from atttacking me... And dojos will allow people to attack you, just one at a time :P (yay humor!) It didn't block people from attacking you in EVE.
No, but it ensured that if someone wanted to try and attack me they would have to find me on my terms and engage me on my terms and not theirs. I am not saying we should reward the player who invests the time and manages to catch me, that aspect will always be in EVE and these dojos wont stop people from ganking freighters, can flipping ratters, and other methods of fighting people who dont want the fight.
The dojo can't be used for mining, ratting, incursions, offgrid boosts, or any other possible abuses. There will still be plenty of people to backstab, manipulate, and gank. There will be one method for one type of engagement and that is the 1v1.
Personally, I think the 1v1 is acceptable for TQ, I like some of the mechanics people have thought of with messing with the dojo while it is deployed, I think if CCP wanted to go larger than 1v1 it should explicitly stay off the TQ server. I look at the dojo as a great way to train on ships, even after 6 years I have no clue what the **** I am doing at times. I would still gladly go out on small roams, I would still PvP in conventional methods, and having this on TQ wouldn't change the fun I'd have flying with my corpmates into repeated oblivion and death.
Anyway,
Meh |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
826
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:54:00 -
[333] - Quote
Most everything has been said already, so I'll just stick with this: No. Remove insurance. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:55:00 -
[334] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: You don't change the heart and soul of a game on "might". And in EVE, everyone PVPs, pvp isn't just 'pew'.
Why can't we blob the AT teams then? Why can't we attack people in stations? Why can't we destroy nullsec assets in stations (that ccp will move for you after some months of inactivity)? Why can't we get access to APIs in game and check for alts since it's a way to metagame the pvp? |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8325
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:55:00 -
[335] - Quote
Seamus Donohue wrote:Guys? Read the post. CCP Veritas wrote:2. Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself
{snip}
ThereGÇÖs a personal deployable that you can obtain from item redeption on Duality that when put into space and stocked with ships and modules (itGÇÖs huge), provides players docked in that system with the ability to fight each other with those ships and modules in fair environment. Whoever is deploying this dojo has to shove ships and modules into it. Somebody has to buy or manufacture those ships and modules. The minerals and moon goo to make those ships and modules must come from player activity. All this is is a way for one player to subsidize another player's PvP. Dojos on Duality might have stuff automatically spawned into them but only because it's Duality. CCP Veritas is not proposing that Dojos on Tranquility will have free stuff spawned into them by CCP. Additionally, Veritas explicitly states "Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself", implying that the dojo can be attacked. It's only the deadspace matches that cannot be interfered with. Nobody is proposing bringing Simulator Mode to Tranquility; Simulator Mode is already provided by Singularity and Duality. --- Now, the only concern I have is that if this is deployed to Tranquility, then this can be used as a method to leave a station that is currently camped. You can get your pod and implants out into space, bypassing the station camp, or get a force of pilots out into space and then warp to the station camp and optimals, rather than be forced to either use instant undock bookmarks (or in the case of bubbles, be forced to fight on the station undock spawn point).
"Simulator" isn't the issue, in fact a simulator (while being un-eve like also) would actually be ok because that doesn't mean 'ships in space on TQ that can't be probed down'.
And yes, someone, somehow will find a way to take these things and make CCP regret putting them in. ESS in wormholes and anomalies anoyone?
|
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
201
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:57:00 -
[336] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
By this logic (as well as some of your previous posts) then wouldn't any program used outside of being logged into the EVE client be a violation of the games core(and founding) principles? I mean by your reasoning, instanced gaming is any situation in which players can interact with game mechanics with zero interference (and risk) from other players.
Jabber lets you play EVE Offline, EVEMon basically give you the advantage for long term skill training and sp optimization. Dotlan provides information on system activity and traffic, allowing you to avoid dangerous systems, EFT allows you to optimize ship fittings without having to physically own the ship, EVE Survival turns PvE into a Prima Game Guide, EVECentral allows you to inspect universe markets as compared to just a region, and yet none of these are made available in the game client, none of these contain an element of risk, and yet every one of these give distinct and significant advantages to players who use them, as compared to the new players.
All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do.
Is anyone else deeply disturbed that the EvE player base is so outraged because they can't interfere with an organized fight. Let's break this down for a moment and assume that the dojo came to support 10 v 10 fights. Now let's get the real perspective: The dojo owner took the time to organize the location, time, and rules. Designed the complete structure and layout of the tournament rounds not limited to ships allowed, timers, WH effects (wouldn't that be fun). They also took all the time to gather and assemble all of the ships + fits. They then spent time broadcasting and gathering enough players who were interested in tourney contest. Then they gathered all of the capital to support prizes upfront. They also set aside a weekend to run the tournament and have gotten commentators involved as well. Finally after all of the planning and coordinating, a group of eve players who caught wind of the twitch stream/news burn over in t1 fit arty ruptures and warp in and ruin the whole tournament in a matter of minutes for some instant gratification lols. But let's not ruin EvE right?
Now don't get me wrong, it would be fun to see it happen once, but after every highsec **** who gets their kicks griefing, ganking, etc has had their fill and then some what's left. Another feature soiled and left unused bc we catered to a few players who need to seek some RL help. --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8330
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:58:00 -
[337] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: Why can't we blob the AT teams then?
AT is an exception, and the only one that should be allowed.
Quote:Why can't we attack people in stations? Because they are docked. Dojos would put people IN SPACE. Everyone in sapce should be subject to non-consensual pvp. This is a core facet of EVE Online.
Quote: Why can't we destroy nullsec assets in stations (that ccp will move for you after some months of inactivity)? Why can't we get access to APIs in game and check for alts since it's a way to metagame the pvp?
These 2 things have nothing to do with this discussion. Stations should be destroyable but I don't even know what thate api crap comes from.
You are trying to find ways to make this make sense in your own head. Problem is that is the only place this idea makes any sense. |
Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
142
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:59:00 -
[338] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do.
Doesn't matter. In high-sec two players can agree to duel and do so in a safe. You have realistically no chance of figuring this out, much less scanning them down and getting to them in time to interfere.
What we can see from this scenario is that the two players who actually want a fair duel cannot be affected by you, nor do they affect you.
The problem with the current scenario is there is no way for two random players to do this without risking 5 logi alts interfering with the fight. There are players who duel like this - which is fine - and players that want a fair duel. A dojo gives the fair players an option to guarantee a fair fight. It does not affect a 3rd party like you, it only affects the ability for an agreeing duel member to interfere via alts or friends. Considering both parties agree not to do this when entering the dojo, this only affects those parties, never you or anyone else.
That is their choice, not yours. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 16:59:00 -
[339] - Quote
Seamus Donohue wrote: Now, the only concern I have is that if this is deployed to Tranquility, then this can be used as a method to leave a station that is currently camped. You can get your pod and implants out into space, bypassing the station camp, or get a force of pilots out into space and then warp to the station camp and optimals, rather than be forced to either use instant undock bookmarks (or in the case of bubbles, be forced to fight on the station undock spawn point).
Do you also think that having mobile refit/anti-cyno items is bad? It gave people more options and we have different ways to fight, is it wrong? |
Sydon Audeles
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:00:00 -
[340] - Quote
Ais Hellia wrote:Sydon Audeles wrote:Ais Hellia wrote:Sydon Audeles wrote: Then you can setup your little tournaments around the deployable, get all that extra data to look at and analyze (and check for people breaking your tournament's rules) You should be able to check the rule requirments BEFORE the fight starts not after or it is a waste of time You can do that now. Have them fly out in their ships to your safe spot, have the "referee" board each ship and check the fits, then they re-board their ships and go to town. I was talking more about seeing if someone flew past a boundary distance and wasn't noticed during the fight, for instance. it takes too much time and you can't check implants boundary violations should be executed as in AT (immediate elimination) what will you do if you notice boundary violations AFTER match fininshed? rematch or what? that takes too much time too and can be unfair to for example surprise setups with their opponents having a lot of time to figure out how to deal with them Well i would like to have a full set of AT tools, not some surrogates with limited abilities
Dojo doesn't do anything about implants either, and someone found to have boundary violated could be easily DQ'd after verifying with CREST if you didn't notice during the fight. For live checking, have your referee pilot act as the centerpoint and anyone who gets over 100km away from him is DQ'd and blapped by his arty maelstrom referee ship (or whatever).
You want full AT tools, but I don't think those should be made available to players, so we're not going to fully agree on this. I suggested a CREST-dump deployable earlier in the thread, but I would contend that everything else as far as rule enforcement is already reasonably doable by players with existing resources. |
|
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
560
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:00:00 -
[341] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
The instant gratification mob are by far the worst crowd to cater to, soon after adding 1v1s they will demand 10v10s. Before long we will find PvP rank systems and then all PvP will happen in the arenas. It has happened time after time after time in the exact same way to every single game that added arenas. We joined EVE because it is not like all of those countless other games.
WE??
Dont speak for me please, I joined to shoot spaceships - which is hard to do lately. Your fault, by the way - blue donut and all that.
If arenas allow my to pew and bypass your blobbing and other null- and low- faggotry, great! |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8330
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:00:00 -
[342] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:
Is anyone else deeply disturbed that the EvE player base is so outraged because they can't interfere with an organized fight.
This game was created with the concept of universal non-consensual pvp as a corner stone. YES people should be outraged at a mechanic that bypasses this cornerstone even if it doesn't outwardly affect them personally. It means the end of the EVE Online original concept.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13316
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:00:00 -
[343] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Seamus Donohue wrote:Guys? Read the post. CCP Veritas wrote:2. Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself
{snip}
ThereGÇÖs a personal deployable that you can obtain from item redeption on Duality that when put into space and stocked with ships and modules (itGÇÖs huge), provides players docked in that system with the ability to fight each other with those ships and modules in fair environment. Whoever is deploying this dojo has to shove ships and modules into it. Somebody has to buy or manufacture those ships and modules. The minerals and moon goo to make those ships and modules must come from player activity. All this is is a way for one player to subsidize another player's PvP. Dojos on Duality might have stuff automatically spawned into them but only because it's Duality. CCP Veritas is not proposing that Dojos on Tranquility will have free stuff spawned into them by CCP. Additionally, Veritas explicitly states "Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself", implying that the dojo can be attacked. It's only the deadspace matches that cannot be interfered with. Nobody is proposing bringing Simulator Mode to Tranquility; Simulator Mode is already provided by Singularity and Duality. --- Now, the only concern I have is that if this is deployed to Tranquility, then this can be used as a method to leave a station that is currently camped. You can get your pod and implants out into space, bypassing the station camp, or get a force of pilots out into space and then warp to the station camp and optimals, rather than be forced to either use instant undock bookmarks (or in the case of bubbles, be forced to fight on the station undock spawn point). "Simulator" isn't the issue, in fact a simulator (while being un-eve like also) would actually be ok because that doesn't mean 'ships in space on TQ that can't be probed down'. And yes, someone, somehow will find a way to take these things and make CCP regret putting them in. ESS in wormholes and anomalies anoyone?
Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Placing a booster alt inside one. Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13316
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:02:00 -
[344] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:
The instant gratification mob are by far the worst crowd to cater to, soon after adding 1v1s they will demand 10v10s. Before long we will find PvP rank systems and then all PvP will happen in the arenas. It has happened time after time after time in the exact same way to every single game that added arenas. We joined EVE because it is not like all of those countless other games.
WE?? Dont speak for me please, I joined to shoot spaceships - which is hard to do lately. Your fault, by the way - blue donut and all that. If arenas allow my to pew and bypass your blobbing and other null- and low- faggotry, great!
All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:04:00 -
[345] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: AT is an exception, and the only one that should be allowed.
"Because I said so."
Despite how popular AT is, despite how popular solo pvp is/was and how much content and new players it added to the game.
Jenn aSide wrote: Because they are docked. Dojos would put people IN SPACE. Everyone in sapce should be subject to non-consensual pvp. This is a core facet of EVE Online.
Cloaked people in safes aren't subject to anything, are you new or something?
Jenn aSide wrote: These 2 things have nothing to do with this discussion. Stations should be destroyable but I don't even know what thate api crap comes from.
You are trying to find ways to make this make sense in your own head. Problem is that is the only place this idea makes any sense.
Using alts is a way to metagame the pvp system, I can use a safe carebear alt in deepnull/hs and you can't do anything to hurt me from my main.
|
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
560
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:04:00 -
[346] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Blocking people from being backstabbing vagrants is taking away from the sandbox.
And that is a bad thing, because....?
|
|
CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3516
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:04:00 -
[347] - Quote
Sydon Audeles wrote:As we were discussing this in my alliance IRC, someone brought up this idea as an alternative: Make a deployable object that gives a data-dump of CREST info like we had for the alliance tournament for everything happening within a certain distance of it - say, 200km. To offset the additional computing time/server cost, make it cost Aurum. Then you can setup your little tournaments around the deployable, get all that extra data to look at and analyze (and check for people breaking your tournament's rules) and have fun with, all without changing fundamental EVE mechanics whatsoever. You could also use this as a training tool - setup one of these things, duel someone a few times, then use a tool like null-sec.com's ATXII replays to point out what they did wrong or how they could have handled a situation better.
This moves forward the goal of helping people do cool things with private tournaments or events, but doesn't screw with core EVE ideas or mechanics.
The reason this works for the alliance tournament, and possibly for dojos, is that they are restricted to the maximum number of participants. If a deployable was deployed in a big fleet battle we couldn't do what we do for the alliance tournament. CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @CCP_FoxFour |
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:04:00 -
[348] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.
All we ask is to be able to destroy your station assets and have access to your alts.
If it's a true sandbox we should be able to, am I right? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13316
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:04:00 -
[349] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote:baltec1 wrote: All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do.
Doesn't matter. In high-sec two players can agree to duel and do so in a safe. You have realistically no chance of figuring this out, much less scanning them down and getting to them in time to interfere. What we can see from this scenario is that the two players who actually want a fair duel cannot be affected by you, nor do they affect you. The problem with the current scenario is there is no way for two random players to do this without risking 5 logi alts interfering with the fight. There are players who duel like this - which is fine - and players that want a fair duel. A dojo gives the fair players an option to guarantee a fair fight. It does not affect a 3rd party like you, it only affects the ability for an agreeing duel member to interfere via alts or friends. Considering both parties agree not to do this when entering the dojo, this only affects those parties, never you or anyone else. That is their choice, not yours.
My choice to blow up their poorly fitted cruiser with a neutron mega is just as valid as yours to engage in a 1v1 honour duel. That's what the sandbox is. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
142
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:05:00 -
[350] - Quote
Quote:Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Neutral Orca.
Quote:Placing a booster alt inside one. Adjust boosts mechanic to not apply outside this area.
Quote:Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails. Could you not do the same with FW sites? And yet no one does it.
|
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13316
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:05:00 -
[351] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.
All we ask is to be able to destroy your station assets and have access to your alts. If it's a true sandbox we should be able to, am I right?
No, your line of argument is as stupid now as it was when you started. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8330
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:06:00 -
[352] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Placing a booster alt inside one. Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails.
Exactly. CCP would have to make links not work inside of them. More work.
And what about people in the station with implants, will the implants be transported outside too? Can you just warp out of the deadspace pocket and BOOM, you are free of a hell camp.
As usual with all naive ideas, the 'supporters' haven't thought it through (hello Dominion SOV all over again, some people said it was stuipd but the supporters, tired of the pos grind, were SURE that Dominion was the fix and the answe to getting small groups to go to null L....O.....L).
Part of me is now hoping CCP bring this to tranquility so when it screws up a lot of things in unintended ways we can link this thread and watch those same supporters NOT reply....
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:07:00 -
[353] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.
All we ask is to be able to destroy your station assets and have access to your alts. If it's a true sandbox we should be able to, am I right? No, your line of argument is as stupid now as it was when you started.
Thanks, I was using your logic. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13321
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:07:00 -
[354] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote:Quote:Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Neutral Orca. Quote:Placing a booster alt inside one. Adjust boosts mechanic to not apply outside this area. Quote:Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails. Could you not do the same with FW sites? And yet no one does it.
They are hard to set up in low sec and a mostly unknown tactic. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8335
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:08:00 -
[355] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote:Quote:Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Neutral Orca. Quote:Placing a booster alt inside one. Adjust boosts mechanic to not apply outside this area. Quote:Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails. Could you not do the same with FW sites? Alternatively could be blocked by a shield much like a starbase; hit the shield while dueling, you explode (boundary violation). Point here is adjustments can be made to mitigate exploitation.
If you have to damn near re-write the game to fix possible exploits of a deplorable, doesn't that mean the deplorable was a bad idea to begin with?
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13321
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:08:00 -
[356] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:
Thanks, I was using your logic.
Again you use that word while demonstrating a lack of it. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
3097
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:09:00 -
[357] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: logic.
There you go using that word again.
One day you'll figure out what it means, and you'll probably stop posting. "i advice you to go spit on the back of someone else because you are fall on the wrong horse." - Meio Rayliegh |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8335
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:09:00 -
[358] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Blocking people from being backstabbing vagrants is taking away from the sandbox.
And that is a bad thing, because....?
Because this is EVE. *Kicks LUM into death pit*
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:09:00 -
[359] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote: Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Placing a booster alt inside one. Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails.
Exactly. CCP would have to make links not work inside of them. More work. And what about people in the station with implants, will the implants be transported outside too? Can you just warp out of the deadspace pocket and BOOM, you are free of a hell camp. As usual with all naive ideas, the 'supporters' haven't thought it through (hello Dominion SOV all over again, some people said it was stupid, but the supporters, tired of the pos grind, were SURE that Dominion was the fix and the answer to getting small groups to go to null L....O.....L). Part of me is now hoping CCP bring this to tranquility so when it screws up a lot of things in unintended ways we can link this thread and watch those same supporters NOT reply....
It's not like CCP changed the way they test stuff since then, It's not like they said they will have modules/ship checks before entering.
Oh wait. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
560
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:09:00 -
[360] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.
Yeah, go and reinforce the dojo, or have 10 catalysts ready as i land on the dojo and attempt to enter it. Or join the dojo corp, rise to position of power, then steal the frigates out of the dojo.
|
|
Sydon Audeles
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:10:00 -
[361] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Sydon Audeles wrote:As we were discussing this in my alliance IRC, someone brought up this idea as an alternative: Make a deployable object that gives a data-dump of CREST info like we had for the alliance tournament for everything happening within a certain distance of it - say, 200km. To offset the additional computing time/server cost, make it cost Aurum. Then you can setup your little tournaments around the deployable, get all that extra data to look at and analyze (and check for people breaking your tournament's rules) and have fun with, all without changing fundamental EVE mechanics whatsoever. You could also use this as a training tool - setup one of these things, duel someone a few times, then use a tool like null-sec.com's ATXII replays to point out what they did wrong or how they could have handled a situation better.
This moves forward the goal of helping people do cool things with private tournaments or events, but doesn't screw with core EVE ideas or mechanics. The reason this works for the alliance tournament, and possibly for dojos, is that they are restricted to the maximum number of participants. If a deployable was deployed in a big fleet battle we couldn't do what we do for the alliance tournament.
Totally understandable. Could it be feasible then to have this module auto-deactivate if it finds more than X number of ships in range? That way if there are only, 2 or 10 or 20 ships in range it works but if someone drops it during a 1000 man fleet fight it just doesn't do anything. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8335
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:10:00 -
[362] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:
Cloaked people in safes aren't subject to anything, are you new or something?
cloaked people in space can't shoot guns. They can in 'Dojospace'.
|
Ais Hellia
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:11:00 -
[363] - Quote
Sydon Audeles wrote: Dojo doesn't do anything about implants either, and someone found to have boundary violated could be easily DQ'd after verifying with CREST if you didn't notice during the fight.
Well it should be able to check implants maybe putting implants inside too and then you will have them in your cargo at the arena and your current implants if there are any destroyed at the moment of teleportation And the team clean sweeping the opponent 100-0 should be disqualified if 1 of their frigate pilots violated the boundary? really? that's why you need full set of tools at least on sisi to have fights run smoothly and in decent time spans |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13321
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:15:00 -
[364] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote: All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.
Yeah, go and reinforce the dojo, or have 10 catalysts ready as i land on the dojo and attempt to enter it. Or join the dojo corp, rise to position of power, then steal the frigates out of the dojo.
Quote:Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise.
This is the part we are not happy about. This should never happen in EVE. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5892
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:16:00 -
[365] - Quote
While respecting both sides of the debate, I have to point out a few things.
Putting what is essentially a training room on the live server is NOT inherently a bad thing... nor is it a "Un-EVE" thing. It is simply another tool.
The only clear mistake is this concept (quite forgivable as it is a rough prototype) is pitching it as combat taking place in a secure dead space area.
If instead it was pitched as an "In game combat simulator" where a "virtual battle" was taking place there wouldn't be quite the huge wave of concern right now. To make this seem correct the two pilots who enter into actual combat in this manner should disappear from local.
That way, for all intents and purposes, the pilots involved are in a "simulator pod" somewhere.... like an arcade in space... and are essentially considered out of normal bounds much like anyone else who is docked.
It's a subtle change of mindset, but there it is.
The advantages to having a combat simulator/training room on the live server are immense, and the only folk that will likely use it will be folks either training noobs.... or noobs themselves trying out combat for the first time.
Now if you are simply giving it a thumbs down because you don't want the population of combat experienced pilots to go up... well... that fairly lame my friend.
If you dislike this because it challenges the stark, harsh, consequence filled nature of EVE... seriously... relax. You're not going to find people abandoning their normal activities in EVE to take part in an endless series of 5 minute matches. And even if some did devote themselves to this, they aren't the pilots you'd find in space making a contribution to the game anyway. They'd be the pilots that never leave the noob systems (or undock period), so you've lost nothing.
If you think about it, it's fairly silly that something similar hasn't been part of EVE since the beginning... as it only makes sense to have a method available (on the live server) where you can try out different fits and tactics in a combat situation that isn't constantly prone to outside interference. It simply doesn't make good sense to NOT do this.
So just think of this as a training/combat simulator on board that station, an arcade within a game if you will. Eventually your sphincter will return to normal.
If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:17:00 -
[366] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
Thanks, I was using your logic.
Again you use that word while demonstrating a lack of it.
Uh, you are not very smart, since I'm in a good mood I'll explain slowly;
- You asked for something stupid like being able to gank a dojo, while the point of the dojo is to have fair and controlled fight
- I asked for something stupid like being able to get the API of a character in game while the point of having an API is to only give it to people (you think) you can trust.
I can go even slower if it's still hard for you to understand.
Domanique Altares wrote:Bamboozlement wrote: logic. There you go using that word again. One day you'll figure out what it means, and you'll probably stop posting.
And instead of proving me wrong you post this? When I call you out on something I also explain why you are wrong, I don't just spout my opinion.
Stick to facts and arguments, if you can of course, I'm a professional internet argue-master. |
Ais Hellia
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:17:00 -
[367] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
Cloaked people in safes aren't subject to anything, are you new or something?
cloaked people in space can't shoot guns. They can in 'Dojospace'.
they can only shoot things that can shoot them back
cloak is a single person instance - deal with it |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:19:00 -
[368] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
Cloaked people in safes aren't subject to anything, are you new or something?
cloaked people in space can't shoot guns. They can in 'Dojospace'.
My point is, your idea of people can be ganked everywhere is wrong.
Remember this is a sandbox there is no good way to play, as shown by the "blue donut" in null sec. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5892
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:20:00 -
[369] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote: All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.
Yeah, go and reinforce the dojo, or have 10 catalysts ready as i land on the dojo and attempt to enter it. Or join the dojo corp, rise to position of power, then steal the frigates out of the dojo. Quote:Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise. This is the part we are not happy about. This should never happen in EVE. Baltec1, respect, but the popularity of the tournaments we all enjoy says otherwise. We enjoy those on a very regular basis, and the same logic that necessitates their isolationist nature holds true for this situation as well.
Competition and training in 5 minute matches isn't going to harm the harsh nature of EVE in the slightest... other than to perhaps raise the general quality of pilot you meet in combat. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13325
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:21:00 -
[370] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
Thanks, I was using your logic.
Again you use that word while demonstrating a lack of it. Uh, you are not very smart, since I'm in a good mood I'll explain slowly; - You asked for something stupid like being able to gank a dojo, while the point of the dojo is to have fair and controlled fight - I asked for something stupid like being able to get the API of a character in game while the point of having an API is to only give it to people (you think) you can trust. I can go even slower if it's still hard for you to understand.
You still don't grasp that this game is one in which while you are undocked and in space shooting at another ship you are open to attack from other ships. This idea flies in the face of this core aspect of the game and reduces options that I want to take. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8336
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:21:00 -
[371] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote: All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.
Yeah, go and reinforce the dojo, or have 10 catalysts ready as i land on the dojo and attempt to enter it. Or join the dojo corp, rise to position of power, then steal the frigates out of the dojo. Quote:Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise. This is the part we are not happy about. This should never happen in EVE.
Exactly.
NO ship in space on TQ should be "un-screw-with-able", not even the one I'm sitting in that I did 10 hours of incursions to afford (*pats Machariel like a favorite pet*).
The core concept of EVE means something (to people who actually care about EVE). You don't screw that up in even minor ways because people are too lazy to scan out a wormhole to find an empty system to screw around in unmolested.
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
3098
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:22:00 -
[372] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:
Stick to facts and arguments,
It's a fact that you don't know what logic is. You keep posting all the proof I need to back my arguments with every reply. "i advice you to go spit on the back of someone else because you are fall on the wrong horse." - Meio Rayliegh |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13325
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:23:00 -
[373] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: Baltec1, respect, but the popularity of the tournaments we all enjoy says otherwise. We enjoy those on a very regular basis, and the same logic that necessitates their isolationist nature holds true for this situation as well.
Competition and training in 5 minute matches isn't going to harm the harsh nature of EVE in the slightest... other than to perhaps raise the general quality of pilot you meet in combat.
Gotta disagree. I can take the tool as something cool and handy for running your own competitions but I cannot back something that will effectively instance you from the rest of EVE and stop people from messing with you. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1402
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:23:00 -
[374] - Quote
Garmon wrote:Gilgamesh BoShudda wrote:Great, so now when I am flying around in FW lowsec looking for frig fights, instead of finding mostly stabbed and cloaky frigs, I will find ONLY stabbed and cloaky frigs. All of the players who would normally be venturing out into FW systems looking for fun fights will instead just stay docked in the hubs. If this ends up on TQ, it will kill frig PVP. you're fuc king reta rded This pretty much sums up this entire thread. The part where a few CSMs came in to say (more or less word for word) "if you disagree with this you're dumb" was particularly gratifying. This has to be one of the most polarised threads I've seen in terms of IQ. It's nice to know that, as someone who plays EVE for EVE and not for Dota in space, I'm keeping good company.
Anyway, I'm actually torn over this reaching TQ. On the one hand it is obviously a terrible idea, but on the other I've always kind of wanted to see what would happen if you offered instant gratification PvP to our "hurf durf I play EVE I'm so hardcore" playerbase. An experiment worth the potential costs I think.
Think about it - if adding instant graitifaction PvP on TQ 'kills EVE' - wasn't it really dead all along anyway? [witty image] - Stream |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5162
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:24:00 -
[375] - Quote
Ais Hellia wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
Cloaked people in safes aren't subject to anything, are you new or something?
cloaked people in space can't shoot guns. They can in 'Dojospace'. they can only shoot things that can shoot them back cloak is a single person instance - deal with it that's the dumbest thing iv read today by a large margin =]I[= |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:24:00 -
[376] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: You still don't grasp that this game is one in which while you are undocked and in space shooting at another ship you are open to attack from other ships. This idea flies in the face of this core aspect of the game and reduces options that I want to take.
And then stuff like AT, NEO and solo pvp videos happened, and people liked it.
Bad POS management is a core aspect of the game, I won't cry when CCP fix it.
Deal with it and HTFU. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8336
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:24:00 -
[377] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
Cloaked people in safes aren't subject to anything, are you new or something?
cloaked people in space can't shoot guns. They can in 'Dojospace'. My point is, your idea of people can be ganked everywhere is wrong. Remember this is a sandbox there is no good way to play, as shown by the "blue donut" in null sec.
allow me to rephrase then. Everyone who can have a physical affect on someone else in space on tranquility should be subject to the underlying LAW of EVE Online space flight ie "a ship in space can never be safe from unwanted pvp".
The same reason why Tech3s become scannable is the reason why these "unscannable deadspace pockets" should not exist.
|
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1402
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:26:00 -
[378] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:If instead it was pitched as an "In game combat simulator" where a "virtual battle" was taking place there wouldn't be quite the huge wave of concern right now. To make this seem correct the two pilots who enter into actual combat in this manner should disappear from local. No, it should involve actual ships being destroyed, at least that way my industrial activities will be unaffected, maybe even boosted if lots of people engage in Dota-in-space. [witty image] - Stream |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:27:00 -
[379] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
Thanks, I was using your logic.
Again you use that word while demonstrating a lack of it. Uh, you are not very smart, since I'm in a good mood I'll explain slowly; - You asked for something stupid like being able to gank a dojo, while the point of the dojo is to have fair and controlled fight - I asked for something stupid like being able to get the API of a character in game while the point of having an API is to only give it to people (you think) you can trust. I can go even slower if it's still hard for you to understand. You still don't grasp that this game is one in which while you are undocked and in space shooting at another ship you are open to attack from other ships. This idea flies in the face of this core aspect of the game and reduces options that I want to take.
Bold added by me.
This is why I can't give much credibility to your posts. That and you and bamboozle have been fairly rude to one another.
If you can have YOUR unfair fights, why can I have MY fair fights. Whose entitlement do we have to bow to? Why can't we have both? |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:27:00 -
[380] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
Stick to facts and arguments,
It's a fact that you don't know what logic is. You keep posting all the proof I need to back my arguments with every reply.
Again, instead of "highlighting" why I'm presumably wrong you keep posting your opinion on how I'm wrong because you said so.
I wonder why |
|
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:28:00 -
[381] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
Cloaked people in safes aren't subject to anything, are you new or something?
cloaked people in space can't shoot guns. They can in 'Dojospace'. My point is, your idea of people can be ganked everywhere is wrong. Remember this is a sandbox there is no good way to play, as shown by the "blue donut" in null sec. allow me to rephrase then. Everyone who can have a physical affect on someone else in space on tranquility should be subject to the underlying LAW of EVE Online space flight ie "a ship in space can never be safe from unwanted pvp". The same reason why Tech3s become scannable is the reason why these "unscannable deadspace pockets" should not exist.
Please provide source of this LAW |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13326
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:30:00 -
[382] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:
If you can have YOUR unfair fights, why can I have MY fair fights. Whose entitlement do we have to bow to? Why can't we have both?
We do have both right now. You can run 1v1s and I can backstab you and vice versa. This removes my option to backstab you (and adds a bunch of underhand uses a few of which I pointed out) Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8337
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:30:00 -
[383] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:
If you can have YOUR unfair fights, why can't I have MY fair fights. Whose entitlement do we have to bow to? Why can't we have both?
What you just said is like saying "I know this is WoW, but I like spaceships, why can you have you elves and unicorns but I can't have my Vindicator to kill wild boars?".
EVE is built around the concept of non-consensual pvp. You can't have your "consensual only" pvp instances because then EVE effectively ceases being a non-consensual pvp game. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
561
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:31:00 -
[384] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Quote:Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise. This is the part we are not happy about. This should never happen in EVE.
I say otherwise. My voice counts exactly as much as yours.
The fact that CCP has been working on it as far back as 6 months ago means they are leaning in my side's direction.
The door is that way if you are unhappy. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:31:00 -
[385] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: allow me to rephrase then. Everyone who can have a physical affect on someone else in space on tranquility should be subject to the underlying LAW of EVE Online space flight ie "a ship in space can never be safe from unwanted pvp".
The same reason why Tech3s become scannable is the reason why these "unscannable deadspace pockets" should not exist.
But this is just your opinion, stuff like AT and NEO exist and eve players love it.
Just deal with the fact that people are playing the game differently, if eve was 100% sandbox it would be chaos (I would like it tho) we have game limits to keep the gameplay enjoyable/playable.
Asking to gank dojos is stupid, it's against the dojo design itself. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8337
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:32:00 -
[386] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
Cloaked people in safes aren't subject to anything, are you new or something?
cloaked people in space can't shoot guns. They can in 'Dojospace'. My point is, your idea of people can be ganked everywhere is wrong. Remember this is a sandbox there is no good way to play, as shown by the "blue donut" in null sec. allow me to rephrase then. Everyone who can have a physical affect on someone else in space on tranquility should be subject to the underlying LAW of EVE Online space flight ie "a ship in space can never be safe from unwanted pvp". The same reason why Tech3s become scannable is the reason why these "unscannable deadspace pockets" should not exist. Please provide source of this LAW
http://www.eveonline.com/
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:33:00 -
[387] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
If you can have YOUR unfair fights, why can I have MY fair fights. Whose entitlement do we have to bow to? Why can't we have both?
We do have both right now. You can run 1v1s and I can backstab you and vice versa. This removes my option to backstab you (and adds a bunch of underhand uses a few of which I pointed out)
Except that you can still gank the non-dojo 1v1, and that player run 1v1s are hard to normalize (implants, mods, neut logis, etc). |
Anslo
Scope Works
13944
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:33:00 -
[388] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
If you can have YOUR unfair fights, why can't I have MY fair fights. Whose entitlement do we have to bow to? Why can't we have both?
What you just said is like saying "I know this is WoW, but I like spaceships, why can you have you elves and unicorns but I can't have my Vindicator to kill wild boars?". EVE is built around the concept of non-consensual pvp. You can't have your "consensual only" pvp instances because then EVE effectively ceases being a non-consensual pvp game.
You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:35:00 -
[389] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
If you can have YOUR unfair fights, why can't I have MY fair fights. Whose entitlement do we have to bow to? Why can't we have both?
What you just said is like saying "I know this is WoW, but I like spaceships, why can you have you elves and unicorns but I can't have my Vindicator to kill wild boars?". EVE is built around the concept of non-consensual pvp. You can't have your "consensual only" pvp instances because then EVE effectively ceases being a non-consensual pvp game.
Using your flawed logic :
EVE is built around the concept of bad POS management, you can't have your "nice POS management" instances because then EVE effectively ceases being a bad POS management game.
|
Cy'ferth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:36:00 -
[390] - Quote
I like the idea of people having their fair fights in eve honestly those who feel eve's unfair nature goes against them i do feel this might make eve's pvp future uncertain.
Because it might encourage people to sit in a station in a queue for pvp (like other mmo's going) and i feel that eve will suffer because of this.
IMO. |
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13330
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:37:00 -
[391] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:
Except that you can still gank the non-dojo 1v1, and that player run 1v1s are hard to normalize (implants, mods, neut logis, etc).
We cannot gank them because;
Quote:Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise.
Just because something requires effort on your behalf does not mean I should have my gameplay negetivly impacted. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8339
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:38:00 -
[392] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
If you can have YOUR unfair fights, why can't I have MY fair fights. Whose entitlement do we have to bow to? Why can't we have both?
What you just said is like saying "I know this is WoW, but I like spaceships, why can you have you elves and unicorns but I can't have my Vindicator to kill wild boars?". EVE is built around the concept of non-consensual pvp. You can't have your "consensual only" pvp instances because then EVE effectively ceases being a non-consensual pvp game. You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
That's what "change for the sake of change" people always say. Good change doesn't elicit comments from me because they are good changes. Slow but well thought out progress is always the way forward.
Ignoring one of the founding principles of the game (universal non-consensual pvp in space with the policy exception of noob systems and the SOE arc) is not and cannot ever be sound progress.
EVE must change to survive, but if it has to change it's core concept, then that core concept wasn't good to begin with.
|
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
562
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:38:00 -
[393] - Quote
Cy'ferth wrote:I like the idea of people having their fair fights in eve honestly those who feel eve's unfair nature goes against them i do feel this might make eve's pvp future uncertain.
Because it might encourage people to sit in a station in a queue for pvp (like other mmo's going) and i feel that eve will suffer because of this.
IMO.
Why? When you lose enough rifters to arena PvP, eventually you will have to go out and make some isk.
And you think arenas will be limited to cheap frigs? I think not. How many ravens/megas etc. can you lose before you have to go out and replanish your isk?
You want to arena-pew with blinged stuff? Go farm LP in FW.
You want your flashy T3s? Go do some WH stuff.
You want to simply buy stuff for isk? Go do incursions or null-bear ratting for isk.
Literally nothing changes - its a conflict driver just in a different format. Market will re-adjust, people will still be specializing in different aras of EVE, only instead of SOV wars being primary sink for materiel, it will be arena's.
And suddenly, content still exists. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13330
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:38:00 -
[394] - Quote
Anslo wrote:
You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
If you want instanced arenas why don't you play one of the many many games that has them? Why force them into the one game that doesn't cater to them? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:39:00 -
[395] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
If you can have YOUR unfair fights, why can I have MY fair fights. Whose entitlement do we have to bow to? Why can't we have both?
We do have both right now. You can run 1v1s and I can backstab you and vice versa. This removes my option to backstab you (and adds a bunch of underhand uses a few of which I pointed out)
The potential abuses you mentioned is a whole other can of worms that isn't really worth getting into because if this thing ever gets beyond its first day of existence, they are things that CCP would flesh out with the help of the community.
Just because I have the option of backstabbing you does not mean that I subjectively value doing so as my preferred way to engage in 1v1 PvP. The added hassle of worrying about neutral logi alts (my own or yours) is not worth my time and organization, thus depriving me of the content of 1v1 PvP. This seems like an alternative to that.
I will say again, I only want this in the scope of 1v1. I want people to be able to mess with the dojo, I don't want people to abuse the deadspace area, I think it is still EVE-like to have the ships destroyed.
If you don't like it, don't use it. If you like it, use it. What wrong with having that option?
Remember when people said the industry changes would ruin EVE? Those were some fun threads. Speaking of which, Im surprised I haven't seen Dinnsdale Pirannah, the resident doomsayer. |
Schneevva
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:39:00 -
[396] - Quote
Wow I mean really? Could you think of a more clever way to suck all the fun out of solo pvp? |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:40:00 -
[397] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
Except that you can still gank the non-dojo 1v1, and that player run 1v1s are hard to normalize (implants, mods, neut logis, etc).
We cannot gank them because; Quote:Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise. Just because something requires effort on your behalf does not mean I should have my gameplay negetivly impacted.
People that look for fair fights are negatively impacted by your gameplay too.
Again, you complain that they are adding options to the game because it's less targets for you if you don't adapt to the change.
Adapt or die, HTFU like we say in Eve Online. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:41:00 -
[398] - Quote
Schneevva wrote:Wow I mean really? Could you think of a more clever way to suck all the fun out of solo pvp?
Most of the fun from solo pvp come from fighting outnumbered, so nope it doesn't. |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:43:00 -
[399] - Quote
That is not a LAW that is just a link to the evonline website. Please link this LAW to which you refer.
Also Baltec, no one is FORCING EVE to have these arenas. They were introduced on a test server less than 24 hours ago. The people here arguing with you are the people who are saying "We dont mind of this" or "We think this would be fun" I dont think there has been a single post on this thread to the tune of:
"YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THESE CHANGES OR EVE IS FOREVER RUINED"
Compare and contrast... |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13330
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:43:00 -
[400] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:
The potential abuses you mentioned is a whole other can of worms that isn't really worth getting into because if this thing ever gets beyond its first day of existence, they are things that CCP would flesh out with the help of the community.
Just because I have the option of backstabbing you does not mean that I subjectively value doing so as my preferred way to engage in 1v1 PvP. The added hassle of worrying about neutral logi alts (my own or yours) is not worth my time and organization, thus depriving me of the content of 1v1 PvP. This seems like an alternative to that.
I will say again, I only want this in the scope of 1v1. I want people to be able to mess with the dojo, I don't want people to abuse the deadspace area, I think it is still EVE-like to have the ships destroyed.
If you don't like it, don't use it. If you like it, use it. What wrong with having that option?
Remember when people said the industry changes would ruin EVE? Those were some fun threads. Speaking of which, Im surprised I haven't seen Dinnsdale Pirannah, the resident doomsayer.
He would be on your side, anything that reduces non-consensual pvp is good in his eyes.
My issue is with the enforced instance, I should not be barred for getting into it. Make it hard to do sure but not stopped entirely. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8339
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:44:00 -
[401] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
If you can have YOUR unfair fights, why can't I have MY fair fights. Whose entitlement do we have to bow to? Why can't we have both?
What you just said is like saying "I know this is WoW, but I like spaceships, why can you have you elves and unicorns but I can't have my Vindicator to kill wild boars?". EVE is built around the concept of non-consensual pvp. You can't have your "consensual only" pvp instances because then EVE effectively ceases being a non-consensual pvp game. Using your flawed logic : EVE is built around the concept of bad POS management, you can't have your "nice POS management" instances because then EVE effectively ceases being a bad POS management game.
That grasping for straws is dumb. Non-consensual pvp is a founding, core principle. POSes aren't.
Everything in EVE should evolve WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK of it's core philosophy. Key points of that philosophy are :
-Universal Non-Consensual pvp in space (except in noob systems and the Sisters of EVE arc)
-Meaningful Death penalty (ie things can be actual destroyed)
-'Single Shard' universe (Chinese Eve notwithstanding)
As long as those 3 things aren't screwed with, we can talk about different additions or balance issues. But something that violates any aspect of the core goes right out. Dojos (as presented) are as bad a violation of the core philosophy of EVE online as would be isk and material transfers from Singularity to Tranquility or "plex for pvp invulnerability" would be.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5893
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:44:00 -
[402] - Quote
Fair points all around.
Speaking practically, once all loopholes for abuse have been closed, the practical outcome of this would be....
Worst Case Scenario: The new pilots you get won't be completely clueless about combat fittings, and anxiety ridden about losing a ship... thus making your job of showing them how to actually PVP in EVE a little bit easier. Less time lost explaining the basics, less whining, less irritation for you.
Best Case Scenario: You'll see a lot more pilots in space that have gotten cocky (because they've had some success in the arena) and think they really do know how to PVP and fit accordingly, and are much more willing to commit to a fight than previously. More fights, more loot, more challenge, more fun.
When this was first discussed years ago I put forth the opinion that if this was ever attempted it would have to be handled carefully... with graphical and game mechanic elements that strictly divorced the players sense that they were fighting with real ships in space. It HAD to be presented as a high tech training simulator in EVE, with zero tangible profit or loss for engaging in its use.
Well, they've gotten part of it right... they just didn't go quite far enough with the concept. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13330
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:44:00 -
[403] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:That is not a LAW that is just a link to the evonline website. Please link this LAW to which you refer.
Also Baltec, no one is FORCING EVE to have these arenas. They were introduced on a test server less than 24 hours ago. The people here arguing with you are the people who are saying "We dont mind of this" or "We think this would be fun" I dont think there has been a single post on this thread to the tune of:
"YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THESE CHANGES OR EVE IS FOREVER RUINED"
Compare and contrast...
If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8339
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:46:00 -
[404] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:
You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
If you want instanced arenas why don't you play one of the many many games that has them? Why force them into the one game that doesn't cater to them?
Because all must be assimilated by the Carebear Borg (CareBorg?)! Resistance is infantile!
|
Anslo
Scope Works
13945
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:46:00 -
[405] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:
You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
If you want instanced arenas why don't you play one of the many many games that has them? Why force them into the one game that doesn't cater to them?
I never said anything about whether I wanted something or not, now did I?
|
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
563
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:48:00 -
[406] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me.
Then quit. |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
52
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:49:00 -
[407] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
That grasping for straws is dumb. Non-consensual pvp is a founding, core principle. POSes aren't.
Everything in EVE should evolve WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK of it's core philosophy. Key points of that philosophy are :
-Universal Non-Consensual pvp in space (except in noob systems and the Sisters of EVE arc)
-Meaningful Death penalty (ie things can be actual destroyed)
-'Single Shard' universe (Chinese Eve notwithstanding)
As long as those 3 things aren't screwed with, we can talk about different additions or balance issues. But something that violates any aspect of the core goes right out. Dojos (as presented) are as bad a violation of the core philosophy of EVE online as would be isk and material transfers from Singularity to Tranquility or "plex for pvp invulnerability" would be.
Philosophy 1: (With exceptions)
Philosophy 2: (Except for dead bumped Titans)
Philosophy 3: (With exceptions)
And my favorite: NO Instanced Arenas (Except for Alliance Tournament and New Eden Open)
And I can't seem to find where CCP states what their underlying LAWS and core philosophies are... Ill keep looking though.
Also, if you're so against these dojos and youre resting so much on this universal PvP motif, where is your thread demanding Universal Non-consensual PvP in noob systems, the thread about bomb launchers in high sec, of and the one about mobile bubbles outside of nullsec.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13333
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:49:00 -
[408] - Quote
Anslo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:
You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
If you want instanced arenas why don't you play one of the many many games that has them? Why force them into the one game that doesn't cater to them? I never said anything about whether I wanted something or not, now did I?
Just pointing out that EVE has differentiated itself from every other MMO by not doing arenas. Many people do come here for that very reason. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Escobar Slim III
GOLDIE LOOKIN ATRON Neo-Bushido Movement
85
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:49:00 -
[409] - Quote
I THINK SOME PEOPLE WHO DONT EVEN HAVE SCANS CANT COMPLAIN THAT CCP WANT TO CHANGE TO MAKE SOME GAMETIME QUICKER AND FOR PVP 1V1 IN SPECIAL SPACE? IS NOT MUCH TOO ASK.
PERSONALLY THINK AS LONG AS THE SHIP IS SAFE FROM PENETRATION AND THE TIMER IS FOR TWO DAYS TO GIVE CHANCE TO MOVE. WILL HAVE TO SEE HARD DATA FIRST.
I COULD SEE POTENTIAL OF THIS BEING AS A TRAVELLING CIRCUS TYPE PVP FEATURE OF LIKE A WHEEL OF DEATH WHERE BIKE RIDERS GET CHANCE TO ENTER THAT WHEEL THING BUT INSTEAD OF BIKES THEY PVP SHIPS AND THEN THEY FIGHT WITH 1V1 AND NO LINKS AND STUFF LIKE NO HONORE FIGHTERS WHO COME IN AND DESTRYOY 1V1 PVP AND SOLO.
SO POTENTIALLY GOOD YES BUT NEED TO SEE. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5893
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:50:00 -
[410] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:
You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
If you want instanced arenas why don't you play one of the many many games that has them? Why force them into the one game that doesn't cater to them? Because all must be assimilated by the Carebear Borg (CareBorg?)! Resistance is infantile!
I really think you'll find a large number of non CareBorgs using them as well, just for different reasons. They'd actually be pretty handy for certain things. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13333
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:51:00 -
[411] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:
If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me.
Then quit.
I wonder, why are you even here?
You want to change everything about EVE to be just like every other game out there. Why beg and plead to change EVE rather than play those games? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8340
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:51:00 -
[412] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
That grasping for straws is dumb. Non-consensual pvp is a founding, core principle. POSes aren't.
Everything in EVE should evolve WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK of it's core philosophy. Key points of that philosophy are :
-Universal Non-Consensual pvp in space (except in noob systems and the Sisters of EVE arc)
-Meaningful Death penalty (ie things can be actual destroyed)
-'Single Shard' universe (Chinese Eve notwithstanding)
As long as those 3 things aren't screwed with, we can talk about different additions or balance issues. But something that violates any aspect of the core goes right out. Dojos (as presented) are as bad a violation of the core philosophy of EVE online as would be isk and material transfers from Singularity to Tranquility or "plex for pvp invulnerability" would be.
Philosophy 1: (With exceptions) Philosophy 2: (Except for dead bumped Titans) Philosophy 3: (With exceptions) And my favorite: NO Instanced Arenas (Except for Alliance Tournament and New Eden Open) And I can't seem to find where CCP states what their underlying LAWS and core philosophies are... Ill keep looking though. Also, if you're so against these dojos and youre resting so much on this universal PvP motif, where is your thread demanding Universal Non-consensual PvP in noob systems, the thread about bomb launchers in high sec, of and the one about mobile bubbles outside of nullsec.
i get it, i really do. you don't care about what EVE is.
Well, i do, sorry.
|
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
52
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:51:00 -
[413] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:That is not a LAW that is just a link to the evonline website. Please link this LAW to which you refer.
Also Baltec, no one is FORCING EVE to have these arenas. They were introduced on a test server less than 24 hours ago. The people here arguing with you are the people who are saying "We dont mind of this" or "We think this would be fun" I dont think there has been a single post on this thread to the tune of:
"YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THESE CHANGES OR EVE IS FOREVER RUINED"
Compare and contrast... If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me.
Explain, because that made no sense. Content that is available that you choose not to use is not content that is forced upon you. Its an option, not a demand.
I don't do reverse engineering or inventions, but that doesn't mean I despise people who do t2 and t3 production, I in no way feel they are "Forced" upon me and I in no way want to limit others from pursuing that method of gameplay. If they have fun with it, great. I find my fun in EVE elsewhere. |
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
230
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:51:00 -
[414] - Quote
Escobar Slim III wrote:I THINK SOME PEOPLE WHO DONT EVEN HAVE SCANS CANT COMPLAIN THAT CCP WANT TO CHANGE TO MAKE SOME GAMETIME QUICKER AND FOR PVP 1V1 IN SPECIAL SPACE? IS NOT MUCH TOO ASK.
PERSONALLY THINK AS LONG AS THE SHIP IS SAFE FROM PENETRATION AND THE TIMER IS FOR TWO DAYS TO GIVE CHANCE TO MOVE. WILL HAVE TO SEE HARD DATA FIRST.
I COULD SEE POTENTIAL OF THIS BEING AS A TRAVELLING CIRCUS TYPE PVP FEATURE OF LIKE A WHEEL OF DEATH WHERE BIKE RIDERS GET CHANCE TO ENTER THAT WHEEL THING BUT INSTEAD OF BIKES THEY PVP SHIPS AND THEN THEY FIGHT WITH 1V1 AND NO LINKS AND STUFF LIKE NO HONORE FIGHTERS WHO COME IN AND DESTRYOY 1V1 PVP AND SOLO.
SO POTENTIALLY GOOD YES BUT NEED TO SEE. Why are you shouting? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13333
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:52:00 -
[415] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:
I really think you'll find a large number of non CareBorgs using them as well, just for different reasons. They'd actually be pretty handy for certain things.
Thats the fear. Why go hunting for solo pvp when you can push a button to get it? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
ArchAngael
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
11
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:53:00 -
[416] - Quote
My main concern with this idea is that the more popular it is, the more Eve suffers. It seems like a lose/lose to me.
Let's say a corp of people log on for the night. They have to choose: do they go for a roam or fill up the dojo with ships and have a deathmatch or whatever. If they choose the former, that's one less roaming fleet out for others to encounter and have a good fight. Those other roaming fleets encounter fewer other fleets because they are all busy dojo'ing, so they decide to dojo too. Sooner or later, everyone is dojo'ing and no one is roaming. If anyone wants to roam, they soon get bored with it because there is no one to fight. Feature success, but a major cornerstone of Eve has been effectively eliminated.
Alternatively, they might not be very fun, so no one really uses them outside rare/specialized circumstances. In that case, the time spent developing them could have been spent better elsewhere. Recruiter for Supreme Mathematics (affiliated with Stay Frosty)
Take my Eve Online Ship identification quiz at http://fenjaylabs.com/EveShipIdQuiz |
Bethamene
Casalt Corp CAStabouts
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:53:00 -
[417] - Quote
didn't read the whole thread but maybe if the dojo dropped the deadspace pockets (and let the people in them know it) as soon as they were reinforced, therefore letting people scan the participants down, then we'd have the right amount of sand in the sandbox? |
Anslo
Scope Works
13945
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:53:00 -
[418] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:
You whine a lot about new ideas proposed for Eve. If you don't like them, maybe Eve is not the game for you?
If you want instanced arenas why don't you play one of the many many games that has them? Why force them into the one game that doesn't cater to them? I never said anything about whether I wanted something or not, now did I? Just pointing out that EVE has differentiated itself from every other MMO by not doing arenas. Many people do come here for that very reason. And I'm just pointing out that staying somewhere with features, proposed or otherwise, that you dislike seems a bit silly.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8340
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:54:00 -
[419] - Quote
Bethamene wrote:didn't read the whole thread but maybe if the dojo dropped the deadspace pockets (and let the people in them know it) as soon as they were reinforced, therefore letting people scan the participants down, then we'd have the right amount of sand in the sandbox?
This would be acceptable.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13333
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:54:00 -
[420] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:That is not a LAW that is just a link to the evonline website. Please link this LAW to which you refer.
Also Baltec, no one is FORCING EVE to have these arenas. They were introduced on a test server less than 24 hours ago. The people here arguing with you are the people who are saying "We dont mind of this" or "We think this would be fun" I dont think there has been a single post on this thread to the tune of:
"YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THESE CHANGES OR EVE IS FOREVER RUINED"
Compare and contrast... If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me. Explain, because that made no sense. Content that is available that you choose not to use is not content that is forced upon you. Its an option, not a demand. I don't do reverse engineering or inventions, but that doesn't mean I despise people who do t2 and t3 production, I in no way feel they are "Forced" upon me and I in no way want to limit others from pursuing that method of gameplay. If they have fun with it, great. I find my fun in EVE elsewhere.
In every game that has added arenas the same exact thing has happened.
People join the arena, fewer people are out to fight with so more people join the arena to get the fights. The more this goes on the more end up in the arena. Soon you wind up with near everyone in the arena pushing a button for instant pvp and pvp in the wider world is dead. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1405
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:56:00 -
[421] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Worst Case Scenario: The new pilots you get won't be completely clueless about combat fittings, and anxiety ridden about losing a ship... thus making your job of showing them how to actually PVP in EVE a little bit easier. Less time lost explaining the basics, less whining, less irritation for you. While I can't echo baltec's doom and gloom because I haven't seen this happen in person, do you really believe the worst case outcome of the combination of EVE's legendarily risk-averse playerbase and risk-free PvP is an improvement of the risk-based PvP?
People will inevitably crowd towards the easier modes a game has to offer, while I haven't seen it in MMOGs (due to not having played them), I have in pretty much every non-MMOG I've played. Starting people off in those easier modes is also a hilariously terrible way to try to get them into the harder ones. [witty image] - Stream |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5893
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:57:00 -
[422] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:
I really think you'll find a large number of non CareBorgs using them as well, just for different reasons. They'd actually be pretty handy for certain things.
Thats the fear. Why go hunting for solo pvp when you can push a button to get it? Well, because there is no tangible reward for it in an arena... and you are also limited to the ships and fittings the arena offers you... and the fact that there is a boundary to deal with... and you can't use tactical warp in/warp outs.
There are a large number of reasons why people that actually are looking for PVP will only use the arenas for certain things, as a test bed and perhaps as a training arena for new pilots.
It will always lack the depth, variety, and reward of actual PVP... they are simply a convenient way to do certain (limited) things.
Don't get me wrong, I quite see what you are worried about. But I think it would be fairly simple to avoid those potential pitfalls. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
563
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:59:00 -
[423] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:
If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me.
Then quit. I wonder, why are you even here? You want to change everything about EVE to be just like every other game out there. Why beg and plead to change EVE rather than play those games?
I will answer your question with a question of my own.
Why are you still here? Times, they be-a-changin' , you can clearly see the writing on the wall - CCP is preparing to mainstream the game and sell itself. Your 'gameplay' days are numbered - I can guarantee you they will, one step at a time, remove most of the more unpleasant aspects of the game.
So, why are YOU still here, rather then on kickstarter trying to start up a True Sandbox game of some kind? |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
52
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:00:00 -
[424] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
i get it, i really do. you don't care about what EVE is.
Well, i do, sorry.
I care a lot about what EVE is, but more importantly I care a lot more about giving people options to play this game that are fun for them because a sandbox is not only about being able to do anything you want anytime you want, but also about being able to pursue the options of HOW you want to do things and I feel like these dojos offer an alternative to HOW people pursue 1v1 combat, but they are still about to do so anytime, anywhere. It's hard to see how that is as big of a violation as you make it out to be.
Oh, and I forgive you.
I am sorry how easy it is to misconstrue a genuine belief that game developers in a unique game such as this would actually care enough about their players to do the work they do. How silly for me trust in them enough to give them the benefit of the doubt and the understanding that they come from good intentions when they test new material.
Please forgive me. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:02:00 -
[425] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: That grasping for straws is dumb. Non-consensual pvp is a founding, core principle. POSes aren't.
Everything in EVE should evolve WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK of it's core philosophy. Key points of that philosophy are :
-Universal Non-Consensual pvp in space (except in noob systems and the Sisters of EVE arc)
-Meaningful Death penalty (ie things can be actual destroyed)
-'Single Shard' universe (Chinese Eve notwithstanding)
As long as those 3 things aren't screwed with, we can talk about different additions or balance issues. But something that violates any aspect of the core goes right out. Dojos (as presented) are as bad a violation of the core philosophy of EVE online as would be isk and material transfers from Singularity to Tranquility or "plex for pvp invulnerability" would be.
Except you're wrong, this is a sandbox people don't even have to shoot other people.
For example if people in nullsec stopped shooting each others it wouldn't make eve less of a sandbox, ironically it's the exact opposite. CCP introduced consensual pvp with stuff like NEO and the AT, and players were already making videos of solo pvp recording their good fights.
Too bad you don't like it. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13338
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:02:00 -
[426] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: Well, because there is no tangible reward for it in an arena...
There isn't in solo pvp either.
Ranger 1 wrote: and you are also limited to the ships and fittings the arena offers you... and the fact that there is a boundary to deal with... and you can't use tactical warp in/warp outs. There are a large number of reasons why people that actually are looking for PVP will only use the arenas for certain things, as a test bed and perhaps as a training arena for new pilots.
Other games also had limitations on the arenas and that didn't stop them from taking over.
Ranger 1 wrote: It will always lack the depth, variety, and reward of actual PVP... they are simply a convenient way to do certain (limited) things.
Don't get me wrong, I quite see what you are worried about. But I think it would be fairly simple to avoid those potential pitfalls.
Easy risk free PvP on demand will always trump roaming around hostile dangerous space with no guarantee of a fight. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8341
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:03:00 -
[427] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
i get it, i really do. you don't care about what EVE is.
Well, i do, sorry.
I care a lot about what EVE is, but more importantly I care a lot more about giving people options to play this game that are fun for them because a sandbox is not only about being able to do anything you want anytime you want, but also about being able to pursue the options of HOW you want to do things and I feel like these dojos offer an alternative to HOW people pursue 1v1 combat, but they are still about to do so anytime, anywhere. It's hard to see how that is as big of a violation as you make it out to be. Oh, and I forgive you. I am sorry how easy it is to misconstrue a genuine belief that game developers in a unique game such as this would actually care enough about their players to do the work they do. How silly for me trust in them enough to give them the benefit of the doubt and the understanding that they come from good intentions when they test new material. Please forgive me.
Good intentions have ruined many a game. SMART intentions are what's called for. Violating a core principal of your game (even in a smallish way) is not smart.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5893
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:04:00 -
[428] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Worst Case Scenario: The new pilots you get won't be completely clueless about combat fittings, and anxiety ridden about losing a ship... thus making your job of showing them how to actually PVP in EVE a little bit easier. Less time lost explaining the basics, less whining, less irritation for you. While I can't echo baltec's doom and gloom because I haven't seen this happen in person, do you really believe the worst case outcome of the combination of EVE's legendarily risk-averse playerbase and risk-free PvP is an improvement of the risk-based PvP? People will inevitably crowd towards the easier modes a game has to offer, while I haven't seen it in MMOGs (due to not having played them), I have in pretty much every non-MMOG I've played. Starting people off in those easier modes is also a hilariously terrible way to try to get them into the harder ones. Fair points, and I would agree with you if the pilots were getting any reward out of arenas... or if EVE were a simpler game to learn combat in... but neither are true.
Also consider that "someone" has to foot the bill for the arena itself and pay for stocking it with ships and modules. That in itself is going to be a detriment to people just living in the arena.
If I put one up you can be certain that only pilots I invite would be allowed access, and there would be a point to the matches. As altruistic as I am, I'm not going to pay for strangers to sit around and blow each other up just for giggles. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
52
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:04:00 -
[429] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:
I really think you'll find a large number of non CareBorgs using them as well, just for different reasons. They'd actually be pretty handy for certain things.
Thats the fear. Why go hunting for solo pvp when you can push a button to get it?
Because maybe not everyone who uses the dojo will be flying mauraders and other valuable ships knowing full well they are going to blow up? Whereas I am sure they will probably still be in their asteroid belts, complexes, exploration sites.
Solo PvP wont die because the juicy targets making solo PvP worthwhile wont go into dojos and there will still always be bad pilots who make mistakes.
To a degree, incursions are pretty much the same as a dojo, but for PvE (Yes I know you can screw over the fleet, thats why I said to a degree) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13338
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:04:00 -
[430] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:
If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me.
Then quit. I wonder, why are you even here? You want to change everything about EVE to be just like every other game out there. Why beg and plead to change EVE rather than play those games? I will answer your question with a question of my own. Why are you still here? Times, they be-a-changin' , you can clearly see the writing on the wall - CCP is preparing to mainstream the game and sell itself. Your 'gameplay' days are numbered - I can guarantee you they will, one step at a time, remove most of the more unpleasant aspects of the game. So, why are YOU still here, rather then on kickstarter trying to start up a True Sandbox game of some kind?
Because EVE is still EVE and I will continue to fight to keep EVE from turning into a clone of all of those other failed MMOS. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society Affirmative.
345
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:04:00 -
[431] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:allow me to rephrase then. Everyone who can have a physical affect on someone else in space on tranquility should be subject to the underlying LAW of EVE Online space flight ie "a ship in space can never be safe from unwanted pvp". So, if those battles were in some ingame virtual reality you'd be happier? Cause that wouldn't be in space.
But then we wouldn't have ships/modules blowing up, Dojos and their suppliers blown up, ... |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8341
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:05:00 -
[432] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:
Except you're wrong, this is a sandbox people don't even have to shoot other people.
For example if people in nullsec stopped shooting each others it wouldn't make eve less of a sandbox, ironically it's the exact opposite. CCP introduced consensual pvp with stuff like NEO and the AT, and players were already making videos of solo pvp recording their good fights.
Too bad you don't like it.
It's like talking to someone who doesn't speak english. I just don't understand where any of this comes from, it's jibberish, when di d i say anything about having to shoot someone?
|
Noriko Mai
1528
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:08:00 -
[433] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Sierra Payne wrote:
True, you could keep it off TQ but only if CCP allows for direct character copying through an interface. I've bought a toon weeks ago and it still hasn't shown up on SiSi for me. This is an issue that needs resolving. Aside of that I think SiSi or Duality wouldn't be the best choices for this functionality purely due to the nature of these servers as being "test" servers.
the fact that they are test servers is exactly why this is a place for them. test your fits and your skills WRONG. Test servers are for testing new releases. We are just lucky that we can test our fits and skill there... you and your "facts"... -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8342
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:09:00 -
[434] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:allow me to rephrase then. Everyone who can have a physical affect on someone else in space on tranquility should be subject to the underlying LAW of EVE Online space flight ie "a ship in space can never be safe from unwanted pvp". So, if those battles were in some ingame virtual reality you'd be happier? Cause that wouldn't be in space. But then we wouldn't have ships/modules blowing up, Dojos and their suppliers blown up, ...
To me "simulators" are stupid too when you can just go to singularity to try stuff out and practice. I am saying that "simulators" (while stupid) would be better than "unprobable ships in space on tranquility".
Every ship in space (except the ships of true noob in a noob system) must be subject to unwanted interaction. That's a core principle of this video game and should not be violated without extremely good cause (protecting truly new noobs is a good cause for an exception, At and NEO are other good exceptions because they are special events only).
|
Marc Durant
140
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:10:00 -
[435] - Quote
mynnna wrote:If you don't like other people having structured fights, you can go inject a little bit of unstructuredness into their day by blowing up their dojo.
e: If structured fights have no place on TQ, do y'all folks also oppose the Alliance Tournament? New Eden Open?
Tournament is something entirely different and even bringing that up as an argument shows your agenda. New Eden Open should be, and is, susceptible to interference. This is a sandbox, we don't need more arbitrary rules and boundaries created by game mechanics, we don't need this stuff.
Yes, yes-áI am. Thanks for noticing.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5894
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:10:00 -
[436] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:baltec1 wrote:
If they add them to tranq then they will indeed be forced upon me.
Then quit. I wonder, why are you even here? You want to change everything about EVE to be just like every other game out there. Why beg and plead to change EVE rather than play those games? I will answer your question with a question of my own. Why are you still here? Times, they be-a-changin' , you can clearly see the writing on the wall - CCP is preparing to mainstream the game and sell itself. Your 'gameplay' days are numbered - I can guarantee you they will, one step at a time, remove most of the more unpleasant aspects of the game. So, why are YOU still here, rather then on kickstarter trying to start up a True Sandbox game of some kind? Because EVE is still EVE and I will continue to fight to keep EVE from turning into a clone of all of those other failed MMOS. I don't remotely echo the sentiments of those who are being aggressive in their arguments about this on either side. Just quoting on this one to say that I haven't experienced the games you are using to reference how this would all go downhill, which may be why I'm having trouble seeing your point.
Well, actually I see your point, I just don't agree that it would be inevitable if handled correctly.
I still feel that people who might be tempted to keep spending money for the privilege of fighting in an arena all the time are not likely to be people you would have an opportunity to shoot in space... unless you shoot them while they are earning money... which is one thing they'd still have to do to play in the arena. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:11:00 -
[437] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Because EVE is still EVE and I will continue to fight to keep EVE from turning into a clone of all of those other failed MMOS.
"If you don't agree with me eve will die"
I seriously hope CCP is tired of listening to people like you, you don't bring content to the game everything you do is for your own amusement, but when people try to have fun too you start crying.
People love the AT, people love NEO, deal with it.
Thank you CCP for giving solo/competitive pvpers a way to bring more content to eve, eve shouldn't be only about big blobs pressing f1 (this is the gameplay baltec 1 promote).
|
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1406
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:11:00 -
[438] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Fair points, and I would agree with you if the pilots were getting any reward out of arenas... or if EVE were a simpler game to learn combat in... but neither are true. So the people who are out roaming are going to be people looking for rewards, or to attain objectives other than PvP. Sounds great.
Ranger 1 wrote:Also consider that "someone" has to foot the bill for the arena itself and pay for stocking it with ships and modules. That in itself is going to be a detriment to people just living in the arena.
If I put one up you can be certain that only pilots I invite would be allowed access, and there would be a point to the matches. As altruistic as I am, I'm not going to pay for strangers to sit around and blow each other up just for giggles. You might not, but others will. Crazier things have happened.
Actually that link brings up an interesting question, if/when arenas are added: Who will get more money donated to them, the group who uses it to fund non-consensual PvP or the group who uses it to fund consensual PvP? [witty image] - Stream |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:12:00 -
[439] - Quote
Marc Durant wrote:mynnna wrote:If you don't like other people having structured fights, you can go inject a little bit of unstructuredness into their day by blowing up their dojo.
e: If structured fights have no place on TQ, do y'all folks also oppose the Alliance Tournament? New Eden Open? Tournament is something entirely different and even bringing that up as an argument shows your agenda. New Eden Open should be, and is, susceptible to interference. This is a sandbox, we don't need more arbitrary rules and boundaries created by game mechanics, we don't need this stuff.
Then I should be able to kill you and destroy your assets in station, and also have access to your api and find your alts because this is a sandbox and we don't need arbitrary rules. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
157
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:14:00 -
[440] - Quote
Baltec, dude, you know I love you and work hard to keep your megas alive, even in Tengu and Harpy fleets, so lemme just ask you this:
How's this different from POSgunning when a fleet shows up to RF a tower?
The gunner can't be killed. His ship can't be damaged. All he needs to do is safe logoff after the POS goes into RF, and until then, collect any kills he wants.
The dojo can be RF'd. The assets in space can be destroyed. The only thing that can't be a guaranteed 'it's dead, jim', is the pod, because the guys inside aren't there when they're not fighting. So where's the difference between these guys, and the solo POSgunner?
I mean, personally, I see this as a step up from people going to Sisi to duel - people going to Sisi, you can't cause them meaningful harm on Tranq, and they don't even lose any assets. Here, at least it's costing someone money just to do it, right? And you can RF the dojo, even if you can't warp into the deadspace pocket 'inside', so you can screw with their future fights preemptively. |
|
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:14:00 -
[441] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
i get it, i really do. you don't care about what EVE is.
Well, i do, sorry.
I care a lot about what EVE is, but more importantly I care a lot more about giving people options to play this game that are fun for them because a sandbox is not only about being able to do anything you want anytime you want, but also about being able to pursue the options of HOW you want to do things and I feel like these dojos offer an alternative to HOW people pursue 1v1 combat, but they are still about to do so anytime, anywhere. It's hard to see how that is as big of a violation as you make it out to be. Oh, and I forgive you. I am sorry how easy it is to misconstrue a genuine belief that game developers in a unique game such as this would actually care enough about their players to do the work they do. How silly for me trust in them enough to give them the benefit of the doubt and the understanding that they come from good intentions when they test new material. Please forgive me. Good intentions have ruined many a game. SMART intentions are what's called for. Violating a core principal of your game (even in a smallish way) is not smart.
I found that "Core Principal" you keep going on and on about, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I couldn't find anything to do with unconditional PvP.
http://www.ccpgames.com/en/company/about-us
But I did look into EVE Online and found this: http://www.ccpgames.com/en/products/eve-online
"**instancing Similar to sharding but deployed on smaller content segment, like a dungeon. Two different parties of players appear to enter the same dungeon but do not see each other, as they are in their own dungeon (instanced space) and cannot interact with the other party. Makers of virtual worlds often deploy instancing to manage access to popular content and limit crowding. EVE Online does neither."
1) You are not entering the same "Dungeon" (ie Deadspace pocket) when you use the dojo 2) When in the deadspace pocket, you interact with the pilot you are fighting 3) Everyone can still interact (ie destroy, hack, rf) with the dojo 4) limit crowding does not appear to be any reasoning behind a dojo
So I will admit the only one that smells of EVE 'betraying its core' (based on their language) is using instancing to manage access to popular content. Even then I think Falcon could come up with a way to explain it.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5894
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:15:00 -
[442] - Quote
Marc Durant wrote:mynnna wrote:If you don't like other people having structured fights, you can go inject a little bit of unstructuredness into their day by blowing up their dojo.
e: If structured fights have no place on TQ, do y'all folks also oppose the Alliance Tournament? New Eden Open? Tournament is something entirely different and even bringing that up as an argument shows your agenda. New Eden Open should be, and is, susceptible to interference. This is a sandbox, we don't need more arbitrary rules and boundaries created by game mechanics, we don't need this stuff. No, it is not subject to interference....also, there would be a reason for that. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5894
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:16:00 -
[443] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Fair points, and I would agree with you if the pilots were getting any reward out of arenas... or if EVE were a simpler game to learn combat in... but neither are true. So the people who are out roaming are going to be people looking for rewards, or to attain objectives other than PvP. Sounds great. Ranger 1 wrote:Also consider that "someone" has to foot the bill for the arena itself and pay for stocking it with ships and modules. That in itself is going to be a detriment to people just living in the arena.
If I put one up you can be certain that only pilots I invite would be allowed access, and there would be a point to the matches. As altruistic as I am, I'm not going to pay for strangers to sit around and blow each other up just for giggles. You might not, but others will. Crazier things have happened. Actually that link brings up an interesting question, if/when arenas are added: Who will get more money donated to them, the group who uses it to fund non-consensual PvP or the group who uses it to fund consensual PvP? Good question. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
689
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:20:00 -
[444] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote: If two members want to engage in combat with no chance of outside interference, that is their choice.
Please stop the low/null [insert] from hot dropping our good fights. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13342
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:22:00 -
[445] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:
How's this different from POSgunning when a fleet shows up to RF a tower?
Fleet incaps guns, fleet is invulnerable to gun damage.
Arrendis wrote: The gunner can't be killed. His ship can't be damaged. All he needs to do is safe logoff after the POS goes into RF, and until then, collect any kills he wants.
The last competent POS that killed a lot of us was our own tower that went skynet. All other towers are incapped so fast POS gunning is more or less pointless.
Arrendis wrote: The dojo can be RF'd. The assets in space can be destroyed. The only thing that can't be a guaranteed 'it's dead, jim', is the pod, because the guys inside aren't there when they're not fighting. So where's the difference between these guys, and the solo POSgunner?
Its a 48 hour timer, the assets will be gone.
Arrendis wrote: I mean, personally, I see this as a step up from people going to Sisi to duel - people going to Sisi, you can't cause them meaningful harm on Tranq, and they don't even lose any assets. Here, at least it's costing someone money just to do it, right? And you can RF the dojo, even if you can't warp into the deadspace pocket 'inside', so you can screw with their future fights preemptively.
As an idea for a tool for organising events is a good one, its just the not ******* around with combatants thats the issue. You still need that risk otherwise its just going to suck in all of the 1v1 frigate fights. That and the ways we can abuse it because of this no ******* around inside mechanic. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Nyctef
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
67
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:26:00 -
[446] - Quote
ooh what if you stripped it down to the essentials and just had something that could generate frigate-only deadspace pockets like portable FW plexes it'd have to have a huge spool-up time, like 10 hours (because creating deadspace pockets is hard, right?) but you could dump it on your next stratop location and force it to be a frigate-only fight :D
sure, it'd create a huge defender advantage, but that's what the long spool-up time is for |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13342
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:29:00 -
[447] - Quote
Nyctef wrote:ooh what if you stripped it down to the essentials and just had something that could generate frigate-only deadspace pockets like portable FW plexes it'd have to have a huge spool-up time, like 10 hours (because creating deadspace pockets is hard, right?) but you could dump it on your next stratop location and force it to be a frigate-only fight :D
sure, it'd create a huge defender advantage, but that's what the long spool-up time is for
So dump it on a POS and force everyone to fight over it with frigates? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Johnathan Coffey
EVE Corporation 25112592124
15
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:29:00 -
[448] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:You still need that risk otherwise its just going to suck in all of the 1v1 frigate fights. I see your "It will hurt small scale PvP" and raise you a "It will SHIFT small scale PvP into controlled and fair environments". If the change would attract a lot of people, then *maybe* it is a change that people actually want. First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13342
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:31:00 -
[449] - Quote
Johnathan Coffey wrote:baltec1 wrote:You still need that risk otherwise its just going to suck in all of the 1v1 frigate fights. I see your "It will hurt small scale PvP" and raise you a "It will SHIFT small scale PvP into controlled and fair environments". If the change would attract a lot of people, then *maybe* it is a change that people actually want.
Which means I am correct in saying it will kill pvp outside of it. That isn't good for EVE. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:35:00 -
[450] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote:baltec1 wrote:You still need that risk otherwise its just going to suck in all of the 1v1 frigate fights. I see your "It will hurt small scale PvP" and raise you a "It will SHIFT small scale PvP into controlled and fair environments". If the change would attract a lot of people, then *maybe* it is a change that people actually want. Which means I am correct in saying it will kill pvp outside of it. That isn't good for EVE.
No it might kill a small part of the already small solo pvp community that go and try to find fair fights.
And this is only relevant if you gank this kind of pvper, it won't kill pvp at all and it'll bring more people to eve by giving them an interesting short to mid term objective and people (good solo pvpers) to look up to.
"if you don't agree with me pvp will randomly die, also eve will die" |
|
Sahriah BloodStone
Hunter Killers. Forsaken Asylum
37
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:36:00 -
[451] - Quote
Seems to me that the people trying to 'protect eve's core nature' are doing the opposite based on a unproven assumption that it will take over the game.
Perhaps instead of instantly disliking the idea you guys can find constructive ways to improve the idea to prevent the things you don't want happening from happening
I think its fairly obvious that people require a few things. 1. All assets are destroyable inside the ring including pods 2. Dojo's can be reinforced/destroyed along with everything inside 3. Dojo's drop loot when destroyed 4. Some kind of limit needs to be imposed to prevent everyone from only using dojos forever. Limit to 1v1's? Only playable X matches per week?
Dojo's would allow new people or care bears to practice pvp in an environment they feel is educational. Being ganked by 20 dudes can only educate you so much. This allows more people a controlled access to pvp and will increase the amount of people learning and engaging in pvp.
It should also be lore related. some kind of minmatar capsuleer game? Through lore you can implement restrictions that people are looking for.
You people need to start working WITH ccp instead of against them.
|
Django Askulf
F0RCED ENTRY F0RCED ENTRY.
62
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:36:00 -
[452] - Quote
Stupid idea. |
Neutral Haulermeister
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:36:00 -
[453] - Quote
This would be Great!
On Sisi, on TQ PvP should be as fair as all involved allow it to be, If I want to fight there are duels, yellow cans, everything that isn't high-sec, war-decs for a reason. Also if you make this people will abuse the **** out of it to not get scanned down. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
159
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:36:00 -
[454] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Fleet incaps guns, fleet is invulnerable to gun damage.
Ok, and how's that different from 'guys aren't shooting back' because they're inside the dojo?
baltec1 wrote: Its a 48 hour timer, the assets will be gone.
No confirmation on that - personally, I'd think when it gets RF'd, you shouldn't be able to extract any assets. It's non-functional at that point, and transferring things in and out is a function.
In addition, how does it get stocked? Do you do it from station, or do you have to take a hauler/carrier out to stock/unstock it? If you have to actually bring the stuff to it, and it's got an anchoring timer (so it can't be stocked immediately), then doesn't that make these things a potential target, and the hauler coming to put stuff into it even more of a target?
And if items can be removed from it during RF via hauler, then doesn't that just make an RF'd dojo cloaky dictor-bait, waiting for the owner to come and try to save his stuff? |
Johnathan Coffey
EVE Corporation 25112592124
15
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:37:00 -
[455] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote:baltec1 wrote:You still need that risk otherwise its just going to suck in all of the 1v1 frigate fights. I see your "It will hurt small scale PvP" and raise you a "It will SHIFT small scale PvP into controlled and fair environments". If the change would attract a lot of people, then *maybe* it is a change that people actually want. Which means I am correct in saying it will kill pvp outside of it. That isn't good for EVE. How can you not see the flaw in that conclusion? Firstly, not everyone is interested in "fair" pvp. Secondly, not everyone is interested in small-scale PvP. Thirdly, and a null-sec resident should know this, not all PvP is just about killing each other and e-honor. The only PvP "areas" that will suffer are those where players would much rather prefer to fight "arena style" but can't. First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13343
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:40:00 -
[456] - Quote
Sahriah BloodStone wrote:Seems to me that the people trying to 'protect eve's core nature' are doing the opposite based on a unproven assumption that it will take over the game.
Perhaps instead of instantly disliking the idea you guys can find constructive ways to improve the idea to prevent the things you don't want happening from happening
I think its fairly obvious that people require a few things. 1. All assets are destroyable inside the ring including pods 2. Dojo's can be reinforced/destroyed along with everything inside 3. Dojo's drop loot when destroyed 4. Some kind of limit needs to be imposed to prevent everyone from only using dojos forever. Limit to 1v1's? Only playable X matches per week?
Dojo's would allow new people or care bears to practice pvp in an environment they feel is educational. Being ganked by 20 dudes can only educate you so much. This allows more people a controlled access to pvp and will increase the amount of people learning and engaging in pvp.
It should also be lore related. some kind of minmatar capsuleer game? Through lore you can implement restrictions that people are looking for.
You people need to start working WITH ccp instead of against them.
We have, let the combatants be scannable so we can still backstab people. Even if they are hard to scan down it would remove the big issues with them. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5895
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:41:00 -
[457] - Quote
Johnathan Coffey wrote:baltec1 wrote:You still need that risk otherwise its just going to suck in all of the 1v1 frigate fights. I see your "It will hurt small scale PvP" and raise you a "It will SHIFT small scale PvP into controlled and fair environments". If the change would attract a lot of people, then *maybe* it is a change that people actually want. No, it's a vaild concern. This absolutely MUST be handled in a way that does not negatively impact regular PVP. So if this is done a lot of thought must go into how it is implemented.
That being said, I can't help but think of this as to ability to kill someone when you normally would not be able to.
Essentially they dock at a station and do not really undock in the normal sense of the word. For all intents and purposes they are still docked... except they can still get blown up. Which, in many ways, has been the holy grail of PVP in EVE. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Baali Tekitsu
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
641
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:41:00 -
[458] - Quote
Is there going to be honor points and pvp gear? If not 0/10 RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13343
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:43:00 -
[459] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:
No confirmation on that - personally, I'd think when it gets RF'd, you shouldn't be able to extract any assets. It's non-functional at that point, and transferring things in and out is a function.
In addition, how does it get stocked? Do you do it from station, or do you have to take a hauler/carrier out to stock/unstock it? If you have to actually bring the stuff to it, and it's got an anchoring timer (so it can't be stocked immediately), then doesn't that make these things a potential target, and the hauler coming to put stuff into it even more of a target?
And if items can be removed from it during RF via hauler, then doesn't that just make an RF'd dojo cloaky dictor-bait, waiting for the owner to come and try to save his stuff?
These are things that have yet to be announced. For now based upon the info we have the only sticking point is the instanced matches. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Arthur Aihaken
X A X
3823
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:43:00 -
[460] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Which means I am correct in saying it will kill pvp outside of it. That isn't good for EVE. You mean PPPPPBvP, right? Player, player, player, player, player, booster vs. hapless Player - right? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:45:00 -
[461] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: These are things that have yet to be announced. For now based upon the info we have the only sticking point is the instanced matches.
Right, but functionally, what we're looking at is no different (since the structure can be scanned down) from 'this is a new type of POS where individuals can only target other players inside the forcefield', no? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5895
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:46:00 -
[462] - Quote
Neutral Haulermeister wrote:This would be Great!
On Sisi, on TQ PvP should be as fair as all involved allow it to be, If I want to fight there are duels, yellow cans, everything that isn't high-sec, war-decs for a reason. Also if you make this people will abuse the **** out of it to not get scanned down. To not get scanned down for 5 minutes? LOL Not really seeing the potential for abuse there my friend. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13343
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:46:00 -
[463] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:baltec1 wrote:Which means I am correct in saying it will kill pvp outside of it. That isn't good for EVE. You mean PPPPPBvP, right? Player, player, player, player, player, booster vs. hapless Player - right?
Or just a single rattle or SB geddon Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Alundil
Isogen 5
674
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:47:00 -
[464] - Quote
Working so no time to look at Dualkitty
Under the vague description of the proposed mechanic I get the impression that flying to the depot is not needed by the person who deploys it? Or the invited guest? That there is some in station stocking of items and match making? Is that correct?
***IF*** this makes it to TQ what reason would anyone have to deploy these anywhere else but in HS where there would be almost zero risk to assets?
48h Reinforce timer means ample time for assets to be evacuated. No bubbles means nothing actually stopping anyone from leaving with assets. Meaning no reason to bother shooting the arena deployable whatsoever.
Given most pilots in Eve will go to great lengths to minimize risk in any form I don't see this being used anywhere other than HS so that peoples assets are untouchable....and effectively unassailable while in space
Idgi
I'm right behind you |
Noriko Mai
1529
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:48:00 -
[465] - Quote
I tried it and I like it very much. This is a prototype and I see a lot of potential in that idea. All you leet people here whinning about the dead of 1v1 are just ridiculous. Flying for hours and searching for someone to kill with your off grid booster and cyno ready, is just pathetic and should not be the focus of PvP oriented gameplay design. Arenas are fine for people that want just fights. No drama, no ogb, no falcon, no blob, just figts. PvP in general - 1v1, fleet, blob, whatever - in my opinion should happen where player interests collide. This can be sov or fw or hunting explorers, haulers, or other juicy targets whereever you want. But it should focus on the friction that different interests generate.
So *thumbs up* from me. I hope the feature get's more dev time and focus to become a great arena implementation with betting, tournaments and competitions, maybe even leaderboards, crack and whores. -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13343
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:48:00 -
[466] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:To not get scanned down for 5 minutes? LOL Not really seeing the potential for abuse there my friend.
Marauder coming out of bastion that needs a safe spot before it docks. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Migui X'hyrrn
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
108
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:48:00 -
[467] - Quote
This has to be a joke |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:49:00 -
[468] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:baltec1 wrote: These are things that have yet to be announced. For now based upon the info we have the only sticking point is the instanced matches.
Right, but functionally, what we're looking at is no different (since the structure can be scanned down) from 'this is a new type of POS where individuals can only target other players inside the forcefield', no?
Effectively, yes this is what this is and according to some people in this thread, it is a betrayal of non-existent core principals and non-existent LAWS and this will forever ruin PvP in EVE
Edit: Oh and I forget to add this so far is only available on a test server and it was made as a side project from a developer who is leaving the company |
Johnathan Coffey
EVE Corporation 25112592124
16
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:49:00 -
[469] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:To not get scanned down for 5 minutes? LOL Not really seeing the potential for abuse there my friend. Please name one. (Other than the obvious booster alt, which I assume CCP smart enough to fix.) First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING. |
Johnathan Coffey
EVE Corporation 25112592124
16
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:50:00 -
[470] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:To not get scanned down for 5 minutes? LOL Not really seeing the potential for abuse there my friend. Marauder coming out of bastion that needs a safe spot before it docks. How would you get your marauder in there if all ships and fits have to come from the dojo and cannot leave the "arena"? First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING. |
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13343
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:50:00 -
[471] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:I tried it and I like it very much. This is a prototype and I see a lot of potential in that idea. All you leet people here whinning about the dead of 1v1 are just ridiculous. Flying for hours and searching for someone to kill with your off grid booster and cyno ready, is just pathetic and should not be the focus of PvP oriented gameplay design. Arenas are fine for people that want just fights. No drama, no ogb, no falcon, no blob, just figts. PvP in general - 1v1, fleet, blob, whatever - in my opinion should happen where player interests collide. This can be sov or fw or hunting explorers, haulers, or other juicy targets whereever you want. But it should focus on the friction that different interests generate.
So *thumbs up* from me. I hope the feature get's more dev time and focus to become a great arena implementation with betting, tournaments and competitions, maybe even leaderboards, crack and whores.
As I said, who wants to go hunt things and risk being blobbed when you can push button get fight. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13343
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:51:00 -
[472] - Quote
Johnathan Coffey wrote:baltec1 wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:To not get scanned down for 5 minutes? LOL Not really seeing the potential for abuse there my friend. Marauder coming out of bastion that needs a safe spot before it docks. How would you get your marauder in there if all ships and fits have to come from the dojo and cannot leave the "arena"?
Same way we get them into FW ded sites. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:53:00 -
[473] - Quote
With so much of the sky falling in this thread, perhaps it is an idea that should be brought to Tranquility relatively soon. If *so* many people are going to flock to this new feature, that it kills PvP elsewhere, it's bound to be so popular that it increases subscriptions, PLEX purchases, and so on. If so many people are looking for something like a dojo, it simply means that Eve is ready for that change to happen, and CCP stands to profit. |
Johnathan Coffey
EVE Corporation 25112592124
16
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:54:00 -
[474] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote:baltec1 wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:To not get scanned down for 5 minutes? LOL Not really seeing the potential for abuse there my friend. Marauder coming out of bastion that needs a safe spot before it docks. How would you get your marauder in there if all ships and fits have to come from the dojo and cannot leave the "arena"? Same way we get them into FW ded sites. What if the "arena" is not static and changes places every 5min? First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING. |
Seismic Stan
Freebooted Junkworks
509
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:54:00 -
[475] - Quote
Would making dojos only deployable in high security systems address concerns?
I mean roaming isn't a hi-sec thing anyway, PvP there is pretty much limited to wars and suicide ganks, both of which serve an explicit purpose which dojos wouldn't impact upon. Dojos would then just be a gateway experience to 'real' PvP in low, null & wormholes. EVE Online: The Text Adventure --- GameSkinny Correspondent --- Freebooted Blogger |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5895
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:55:00 -
[476] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:To not get scanned down for 5 minutes? LOL Not really seeing the potential for abuse there my friend. Marauder coming out of bastion that needs a safe spot before it docks. Okay, you lost me on this one... I'm probably being dense.
Currently it's frigates only, it takes two people to enter that match (although you "could" start a match with an alt)... but if you're able to fly to the arena you aren't in Bastion Mode anyway.
You can't warp back to the same spot (or warp to a friend engaged in a match) without ending up at the station while the match is ongoing... and I'm not sure why a safespot in that spot would be any different that a safespot anywhere else? If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:55:00 -
[477] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: As I said, who wants to go hunt things and risk being blobbed when you can push button get fight.
Who wants to have enemies and start wars when you can blue them and afk rat in your ishtar, eve confirmed for not being a sandbox it's over eve is finished.
|
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1139
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:55:00 -
[478] - Quote
Alundil wrote:Working so no time to look at Dualkitty
Under the vague description of the proposed mechanic I get the impression that flying to the depot is not needed by the person who deploys it? Or the invited guest? That there is some in station stocking of items and match making? Is that correct?
***IF*** this makes it to TQ what reason would anyone have to deploy these anywhere else but in HS where there would be almost zero risk to assets?
48h Reinforce timer means ample time for assets to be evacuated. No bubbles means nothing actually stopping anyone from leaving with assets. Meaning no reason to bother shooting the arena deployable whatsoever.
Given most pilots in Eve will go to great lengths to minimize risk in any form I don't see this being used anywhere other than HS so that peoples assets are untouchable....and effectively unassailable while in space
Idgi
The owner has to deploy it in space. The owner has to go into space to stock it.
Matches can be arranged from anywhere in system it looks like, you do not necessily have to be docked. Am uncertain (not tested this aspect), if being in space in a ship already affects anything.
When a match starts, players are transported from station to the arena and magically placed in the ship they choose. Participants cannot warp in or out of the arenas, or even inside it. RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
Johnathan Coffey
EVE Corporation 25112592124
16
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:55:00 -
[479] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Noriko Mai wrote:I tried it and I like it very much. This is a prototype and I see a lot of potential in that idea. All you leet people here whinning about the dead of 1v1 are just ridiculous. Flying for hours and searching for someone to kill with your off grid booster and cyno ready, is just pathetic and should not be the focus of PvP oriented gameplay design. Arenas are fine for people that want just fights. No drama, no ogb, no falcon, no blob, just figts. PvP in general - 1v1, fleet, blob, whatever - in my opinion should happen where player interests collide. This can be sov or fw or hunting explorers, haulers, or other juicy targets whereever you want. But it should focus on the friction that different interests generate.
So *thumbs up* from me. I hope the feature get's more dev time and focus to become a great arena implementation with betting, tournaments and competitions, maybe even leaderboards, crack and whores. As I said, who wants to go hunt things and risk being blobbed when you can push button get fight. Apparently not you. Think about it. First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING. |
Johnathan Coffey
EVE Corporation 25112592124
16
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:57:00 -
[480] - Quote
Mangala Solaris wrote:Matches can be arranged from anywhere in system it looks like, you do not necessily have to be docked. Am uncertain (not tested this aspect), if being in space in a ship already affects anything.
This part would be... problematic. First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING. |
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13343
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:58:00 -
[481] - Quote
Johnathan Coffey wrote: What if the "arena" is not static and changes places every 5min?
Does it?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1140
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 18:59:00 -
[482] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:baltec1 wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:To not get scanned down for 5 minutes? LOL Not really seeing the potential for abuse there my friend. Marauder coming out of bastion that needs a safe spot before it docks. Okay, you lost me on this one... I'm probably being dense. Currently it's frigates only, it takes two people to enter that match (although you "could" start a match with an alt)... but if you're able to fly to the arena you aren't in Bastion Mode anyway. You can't warp back to the same spot (or warp to a friend engaged in a match) without ending up at the station while the match is ongoing... and I'm not sure why a safespot in that spot would be any different that a safespot anywhere else?
The way it works is you and an opponent pick ships from a selection already in the dojo, match is created and you are magically placed inside the ship you chose.
Anyone trying to warp to you, say if you fleet them during the 5 minutes, simply gets warped to the dojo deployable itself, not the arena. So I think outside parties using it to hide would be SOL unless they had an exact duplicate of their current ship sat unassembled in the dojo. RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5895
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:00:00 -
[483] - Quote
Mangala Solaris wrote:Alundil wrote:Working so no time to look at Dualkitty
Under the vague description of the proposed mechanic I get the impression that flying to the depot is not needed by the person who deploys it? Or the invited guest? That there is some in station stocking of items and match making? Is that correct?
***IF*** this makes it to TQ what reason would anyone have to deploy these anywhere else but in HS where there would be almost zero risk to assets?
48h Reinforce timer means ample time for assets to be evacuated. No bubbles means nothing actually stopping anyone from leaving with assets. Meaning no reason to bother shooting the arena deployable whatsoever.
Given most pilots in Eve will go to great lengths to minimize risk in any form I don't see this being used anywhere other than HS so that peoples assets are untouchable....and effectively unassailable while in space
Idgi The owner has to deploy it in space. The owner has to go into space to stock it. Matches can be arranged from anywhere in system it looks like, you do not necessily have to be docked. Am uncertain (not tested this aspect), if being in space in a ship already affects anything. When a match starts, players are transported from station to the arena and magically placed in the ship they choose. Participants cannot warp in or out of the arenas, or even inside it. One additional point to address his statement about them only being in high sec... currently I don't believe you enjoy Concord immunity while in a match... though that would likely change. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1140
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:00:00 -
[484] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote: What if the "arena" is not static and changes places every 5min?
Does it?
Its a random arena every time - or at least each DS pocket I used today seemed to be different ranges from parts of the system each time. I'll do further testing of course incase I was just blind. RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13343
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:01:00 -
[485] - Quote
Mangala Solaris wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:baltec1 wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:To not get scanned down for 5 minutes? LOL Not really seeing the potential for abuse there my friend. Marauder coming out of bastion that needs a safe spot before it docks. Okay, you lost me on this one... I'm probably being dense. Currently it's frigates only, it takes two people to enter that match (although you "could" start a match with an alt)... but if you're able to fly to the arena you aren't in Bastion Mode anyway. You can't warp back to the same spot (or warp to a friend engaged in a match) without ending up at the station while the match is ongoing... and I'm not sure why a safespot in that spot would be any different that a safespot anywhere else? The way it works is you and an opponent pick ships from a selection already in the dojo, match is created and you are magically placed inside the ship you chose. Anyone trying to warp to you, say if you fleet them during the 5 minutes, simply gets warped to the dojo deployable itself, not the arena. So I think outside parties using it to hide would be SOL unless they had an exact duplicate of their current ship sat unassembled in the dojo.
Does the ded site you use stay in the space place? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1140
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:01:00 -
[486] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: One additional point to address his statement about them only being in high sec... currently I don't believe you enjoy Concord immunity while in a match... though that would likely change.
Not tried them in HS yet, I set mine up down in FD- assuming more folks would be around/use that area thanks to the moveme hacks. RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:02:00 -
[487] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Noriko Mai wrote:I tried it and I like it very much. This is a prototype and I see a lot of potential in that idea. All you leet people here whinning about the dead of 1v1 are just ridiculous. Flying for hours and searching for someone to kill with your off grid booster and cyno ready, is just pathetic and should not be the focus of PvP oriented gameplay design. Arenas are fine for people that want just fights. No drama, no ogb, no falcon, no blob, just figts. PvP in general - 1v1, fleet, blob, whatever - in my opinion should happen where player interests collide. This can be sov or fw or hunting explorers, haulers, or other juicy targets whereever you want. But it should focus on the friction that different interests generate.
So *thumbs up* from me. I hope the feature get's more dev time and focus to become a great arena implementation with betting, tournaments and competitions, maybe even leaderboards, crack and whores. As I said, who wants to go hunt things and risk being blobbed when you can push button get fight.
Bold added by me
Because getting blobbed isn't fun? Because blobbing people is just lazy? Because being in a blob doesn't require and skill?
https://zkillboard.com/kill/41450192/
That is not PvP, That is what is killing PvP in EVE, not this 1v1 dojo |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13343
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:02:00 -
[488] - Quote
Mangala Solaris wrote:baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote: What if the "arena" is not static and changes places every 5min?
Does it? Its a random arena every time - or at least each DS pocket I used today seemed to be different ranges from parts of the system each time. I'll do further testing of course incase I was just blind.
Please do, if its static then I can get in, if it swaps around then we can at least remove two underhand uses of it. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5895
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:03:00 -
[489] - Quote
Mangala Solaris wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:baltec1 wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:To not get scanned down for 5 minutes? LOL Not really seeing the potential for abuse there my friend. Marauder coming out of bastion that needs a safe spot before it docks. Okay, you lost me on this one... I'm probably being dense. Currently it's frigates only, it takes two people to enter that match (although you "could" start a match with an alt)... but if you're able to fly to the arena you aren't in Bastion Mode anyway. You can't warp back to the same spot (or warp to a friend engaged in a match) without ending up at the station while the match is ongoing... and I'm not sure why a safespot in that spot would be any different that a safespot anywhere else? The way it works is you and an opponent pick ships from a selection already in the dojo, match is created and you are magically placed inside the ship you chose. Anyone trying to warp to you, say if you fleet them during the 5 minutes, simply gets warped to the dojo deployable itself, not the arena. So I think outside parties using it to hide would be SOL unless they had an exact duplicate of their current ship sat unassembled in the dojo. Yeah, I know. That's why I figured I was missing baltec1's point somehow. I'm not sure how a Marauder coming out of Bastion and needing a safe spot benefits in any way. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Noriko Mai
1530
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:03:00 -
[490] - Quote
Johnathan Coffey wrote:baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote:baltec1 wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:To not get scanned down for 5 minutes? LOL Not really seeing the potential for abuse there my friend. Marauder coming out of bastion that needs a safe spot before it docks. How would you get your marauder in there if all ships and fits have to come from the dojo and cannot leave the "arena"? Same way we get them into FW ded sites. What if the "arena" is not static and changes places every 5min? I tried it and it changes position every time. The wreck and beacon disapear after end of fight. -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
|
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
1533
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:04:00 -
[491] - Quote
25 pages of people screaming yes/no and how Eve is about to die when this feature is implemented. It seems to cause some conflict.
I like this idea.
Duel mechanics needed an iteration anyway, and this is going to be a lot easier organizing small tournaments. People can throw matches I suppose, or "coerce" another player into doing so. I couldn't care less if blobbers will have a harder time stomping on people looking for an actual fight. Nor will the dojo feature fully satiate my lust for emergent PVP. |
Johnny Twelvebore
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
46
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:04:00 -
[492] - Quote
I think this would reduce the number of ships/fleets roaming and therefore openworld pvp. For that reason I hope it is not implemented.
If it is implemented then please make it destructible. Bloody hell, another eve blog! http://johnnytwelvebore.wordpress.com
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13343
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:05:00 -
[493] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:Bold added by me Because getting blobbed isn't fun? Because blobbing people is just lazy? Because being in a blob doesn't require and skill? https://zkillboard.com/kill/41450192/That is not PvP, That is what is killing PvP in EVE, not this 1v1 dojo
The issue is that most people looking for 1v1s will just use these things rather than going out roaming and PvP in the wider world will be greatly harmed. All you are doing is proving my point that people prefer to use arenas over having to go out and look for a fight and take bigger risks of things going wrong for them. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Maylin Li
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:06:00 -
[494] - Quote
This would be the most amazing thing ever, please have my babies CCP Veritas |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13345
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:08:00 -
[495] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: Yeah, I know. That's why I figured I was missing baltec1's point somehow. I'm not sure how a Marauder coming out of Bastion and needing a safe spot benefits in any way.
Aggression timer. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Johnathan Coffey
EVE Corporation 25112592124
17
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:08:00 -
[496] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The issue is that most people looking for 1v1s will just use these things rather than going out roaming and PvP in the wider world will be greatly harmed. The first part of the sentence does not in any way imply the second part, unless you consider blobbing soloers the main aspect of PvP. First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5895
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:09:00 -
[497] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mangala Solaris wrote:baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote: What if the "arena" is not static and changes places every 5min?
Does it? Its a random arena every time - or at least each DS pocket I used today seemed to be different ranges from parts of the system each time. I'll do further testing of course incase I was just blind. Please do, if its static then I can get in, if it swaps around then we can at least remove two underhand uses of it. Are you thinking the dead space pocket remains after the 5 minute match ends?
Because I rather doubt that... otherwise you'd have little pockets of "safe" space all over the place. Not that it would matter actually... because you can't warp into one. You would be bounced back to the arena structure... which would probably end rather badly for you. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:09:00 -
[498] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:Bold added by me Because getting blobbed isn't fun? Because blobbing people is just lazy? Because being in a blob doesn't require and skill? https://zkillboard.com/kill/41450192/That is not PvP, That is what is killing PvP in EVE, not this 1v1 dojo The issue is that most people looking for 1v1s will just use these things rather than going out roaming and PvP in the wider world will be greatly harmed. All you are doing is proving my point that people prefer to use arenas over having to go out and look for a fight and take bigger risks of things going wrong for them.
Right, because when you take out a 7 man gang of t1 cruisers, its your fault for getting hotdropped by supers. You just didn't try hard enough and take a big enough risk to get "The good stuff"
Honestly, I would probably use the dojo with my corpmates. That at least is the biggest appeal I see for it. I think if you added larger fleets, betting/gambling, then it becomes a larger risk of affecting PvP I will agree. I do however think this has a lot of potential to be a great teaching tool, especially for new players. |
Neutral Haulermeister
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:09:00 -
[499] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Neutral Haulermeister wrote:This would be Great!
On Sisi, on TQ PvP should be as fair as all involved allow it to be, If I want to fight there are duels, yellow cans, everything that isn't high-sec, war-decs for a reason. Also if you make this people will abuse the **** out of it to not get scanned down. To not get scanned down for 5 minutes? LOL Not really seeing the potential for abuse there my friend. 5 minutes? so that's how long the fight will last? Last I recall Duel Timers lasted as long as the two were fighting, so I could cause light damage to my friend and likewise to me if the fight is not extended then long fights are discouraged and treated unfairly, if you allow it then the issue of people hiding from scans is there. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13345
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:10:00 -
[500] - Quote
Johnathan Coffey wrote:baltec1 wrote:The issue is that most people looking for 1v1s will just use these things rather than going out roaming and PvP in the wider world will be greatly harmed. The first part of the sentence does not in any way imply the second part, unless you consider blobbing soloers the main aspect of PvP.
PvP is PvP. Having fewer targets around is bad for solo player and blobber alike. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5895
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:10:00 -
[501] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: Yeah, I know. That's why I figured I was missing baltec1's point somehow. I'm not sure how a Marauder coming out of Bastion and needing a safe spot benefits in any way.
Aggression timer. But you can't warp to the dead space location, you come out of warp at the arena structure.
If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Suitonia
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
345
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:11:00 -
[502] - Quote
This would be so amazing!! Contributer to Eve is Easy:-á https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Check out my PvP Rifter guide for new players; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YReUNRTGcXo |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:11:00 -
[503] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: The issue is that most people looking for 1v1s will just use these things rather than going out roaming and PvP in the wider world will be greatly harmed. All you are doing is proving my point that people prefer to use arenas over having to go out and look for a fight and take bigger risks of things going wrong for them.
Yes you won't be able to blob people looking for 1v1s if they to use dojos instead of roaming for hours to get decent fights, what a shame people should roam for hours so you can blob them because people looking for 1v1s having fun is illegal (it's in the rules of eve, btw if you don't agree with me eve will die).
You also forgot that a lot of people look for outnumbered fight and that adding dojos won't affect them.
Do you want to go for a quick 1v1 and have no time for a roam ? Go to a dojo.
Do you have time and are you fine going 1 vs odds ? Go roam.
It's all about options and choices. |
Johnathan Coffey
EVE Corporation 25112592124
17
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:11:00 -
[504] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote:baltec1 wrote:The issue is that most people looking for 1v1s will just use these things rather than going out roaming and PvP in the wider world will be greatly harmed. The first part of the sentence does not in any way imply the second part, unless you consider blobbing soloers the main aspect of PvP. PvP is PvP. Having fewer targets around is bad for solo player and blobber alike. UNLESS the soloer gets a lot more targets and the blob gets only a few less (helpless, boring) targets. First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13345
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:12:00 -
[505] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:
Right, because when you take out a 7 man gang of t1 cruisers, its your fault for getting hotdropped by supers. You just didn't try hard enough and take a big enough risk to get "The good stuff"
Honestly, I would probably use the dojo with my corpmates. That at least is the biggest appeal I see for it. I think if you added larger fleets, betting/gambling, then it becomes a larger risk of affecting PvP I will agree. I do however think this has a lot of potential to be a great teaching tool, especially for new players.
As a tool for teaching and running events I like it, it just needs to lose the no messing around with fights mechanic. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:13:00 -
[506] - Quote
Quote: The owner has to deploy it in space. The owner has to go into space to stock it.
Ok, so that's two points of the 'this thing just screams KILL ME WHEN I SET IT UP' list.
Can items be removed when it's RF'd? Does it have an anchoring timer, allowing people to find them and set up waiting for the owner to come stock it? How much storage space does it have (ie: how often would it have to be restocked, as the more often it needs to be restocked, the riskier it is to deploy one)? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5895
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:13:00 -
[507] - Quote
Neutral Haulermeister wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Neutral Haulermeister wrote:This would be Great!
On Sisi, on TQ PvP should be as fair as all involved allow it to be, If I want to fight there are duels, yellow cans, everything that isn't high-sec, war-decs for a reason. Also if you make this people will abuse the **** out of it to not get scanned down. To not get scanned down for 5 minutes? LOL Not really seeing the potential for abuse there my friend. 5 minutes? so that's how long the fight will last? Last I recall Duel Timers lasted as long as the two were fighting, so I could cause light damage to my friend and likewise to me if the fight is not extended then long fights are discouraged and treated unfairly, if you allow it then the issue of people hiding from scans is there. 5 minutes is usually long enough for a frigate duel, but could be lengthened if needed. Duels are a different bird entirely, and can easily be interfered with. Different mechanic entirely.
If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13345
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:13:00 -
[508] - Quote
Johnathan Coffey wrote: UNLESS the soloer gets a lot more targets and the blob gets only a few less (boring because helpless) targets.
soloer and blobber will not be getting more targets in the wider world if they are all in dojos will they? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:14:00 -
[509] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote:baltec1 wrote:The issue is that most people looking for 1v1s will just use these things rather than going out roaming and PvP in the wider world will be greatly harmed. The first part of the sentence does not in any way imply the second part, unless you consider blobbing soloers the main aspect of PvP. PvP is PvP. Having fewer targets around is bad for solo player and blobber alike.
It's not bad for the solo player because solo players can use dojos, you know it's literally made for them and a lot of solo players are excited for the dojos implementation. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:14:00 -
[510] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: As a tool for teaching and running events I like it, it just needs to lose the no messing around with fights mechanic.
But that mechanic's exactly what makes it so useful a tool for teaching: the teacher and student can focus on the lesson being taught, rather than trying to teach while looking over your shoulder all the time. |
|
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1140
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:15:00 -
[511] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mangala Solaris wrote:baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote: What if the "arena" is not static and changes places every 5min?
Does it? Its a random arena every time - or at least each DS pocket I used today seemed to be different ranges from parts of the system each time. I'll do further testing of course incase I was just blind. Please do, if its static then I can get in, if it swaps around then we can at least remove two underhand uses of it.
Definitely changes every time. I just ran a few matches v an alt, recording distance from sun and the dojo deployable every time. Anything from 3 AU to 12 AU off both each match. Obviously could be different in larger systems. RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
Xorth Adimus
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
45
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:15:00 -
[512] - Quote
Two pods enter, one pod leaves..
Edit.. Also this needs a spectator mode so anyone in system can watch. |
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:15:00 -
[513] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ruric Thyase wrote:
Right, because when you take out a 7 man gang of t1 cruisers, its your fault for getting hotdropped by supers. You just didn't try hard enough and take a big enough risk to get "The good stuff"
Honestly, I would probably use the dojo with my corpmates. That at least is the biggest appeal I see for it. I think if you added larger fleets, betting/gambling, then it becomes a larger risk of affecting PvP I will agree. I do however think this has a lot of potential to be a great teaching tool, especially for new players.
As a tool for teaching and running events I like it, it just needs to lose the no messing around with fights mechanic.
How can you use it to teach people or use it for events if people can mess with the fight?
|
Johnathan Coffey
EVE Corporation 25112592124
17
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:16:00 -
[514] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote: UNLESS the soloer gets a lot more targets and the blob gets only a few less (boring because helpless) targets.
soloer and blobber will not be getting more targets in the wider world if they are all in dojos will they? if they are all in dojos they are getting targets non-stop. that's kind of the point. First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13345
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:17:00 -
[515] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:baltec1 wrote: As a tool for teaching and running events I like it, it just needs to lose the no messing around with fights mechanic.
But that mechanic's exactly what makes it so useful a tool for teaching: the teacher and student can focus on the lesson being taught, rather than trying to teach while looking over your shoulder all the time.
That is the most important lesson in EVE by far. You don't need to be impossible to scan in order to teach people how to fight. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Belinda HwaFang
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
19
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:18:00 -
[516] - Quote
Very nice to hear you are finally working on this kind of feature, even if it's currently a prototype.
This would be a great addition to EVE for new and old players alike and would definitely bring in interest from gamers that wouldn't normally try EVE as well as provide a platform for tournaments and training for CCP sanctioned tournaments.
Keep up the good work, looking forward to testing this.
-- Fang |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13345
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:18:00 -
[517] - Quote
Johnathan Coffey wrote: if they are all in dojos they are getting targets non-stop. that's kind of the point.
Which means the wider world PvP is being hurt. This is exactly what I am warning you people about, arenas suck pvp out of the rest of the world. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:20:00 -
[518] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote: if they are all in dojos they are getting targets non-stop. that's kind of the point.
Which means the wider world PvP is being hurt.
Translation :
I can't gank people looking for 1v1s, eve is dying.
HTFU and adapt, welcome to eve online. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13345
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:21:00 -
[519] - Quote
Mangala Solaris wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mangala Solaris wrote:baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote: What if the "arena" is not static and changes places every 5min?
Does it? Its a random arena every time - or at least each DS pocket I used today seemed to be different ranges from parts of the system each time. I'll do further testing of course incase I was just blind. Please do, if its static then I can get in, if it swaps around then we can at least remove two underhand uses of it. Definitely changes every time. I just ran a few matches v an alt, recording distance from sun and the dojo deployable every time. Anything from 3 AU to 12 AU off both each match. Obviously could be different in larger systems.
Thank you.
Next up, can you test how long the matches last and can you get a booster tengu/command ship in them? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
162
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:24:00 -
[520] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: That is the most important lesson in EVE by far. You don't need to be impossible to scan in order to teach people how to fight.
It totally is the most important lesson in EVE. I agree with that 100%. That said, the most important lesson when learning to drive is 'everyone else on the road can **** up, too', but that doesn't mean the first few lessons of every Driver's Ed course don't take place in a controlled environment without other drivers, like a closed course, or a controlled school parking lot. |
|
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers Test Alliance Please Ignore
54
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:24:00 -
[521] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Arrendis wrote:baltec1 wrote: As a tool for teaching and running events I like it, it just needs to lose the no messing around with fights mechanic.
But that mechanic's exactly what makes it so useful a tool for teaching: the teacher and student can focus on the lesson being taught, rather than trying to teach while looking over your shoulder all the time. That is the most important lesson in EVE by far. You don't need to be impossible to scan in order to teach people how to fight.
Learning to look over your shoulder is not a skill unique to PvP though and nor is it a skill that would require you to have a dojo for. Teaching someone how to make a safe spot, or bouncing to celestials is very easy for a new player to understand and if they make a mistake, the learn it the hard way. Trying to explain to someone the importance of angular velocity, optimal, falloff, tracking speed, explosion radius, are all things you can teach in that secure environment, minimize the damage done, practice and implement, and then use out in other situations.
|
Tiran'Sol
Origin. Black Legion.
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:25:00 -
[522] - Quote
I would love to be able to put a contract into the system to fight over. E.g. you win you automatically accept the contract (also leaves room for awesome scamming) |
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society Affirmative.
346
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:27:00 -
[523] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Thank you.
Next up, can you test how long the matches last and can you get a booster tengu/command ship in them? Can't you do that..? Seriously, you spend all that time in this thread arguing and portray a notable personal interest in this feature/its abolishment, yet you cannot update Duality and try it yourself before attempting to debate everyone to the ground? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
163
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:28:00 -
[524] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: can you get a booster tengu/command ship in them?
Well, if it's 1v1 in frigates, I'd guess the answer is 'no'. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13345
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:29:00 -
[525] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:baltec1 wrote: That is the most important lesson in EVE by far. You don't need to be impossible to scan in order to teach people how to fight.
It totally is the most important lesson in EVE. I agree with that 100%. That said, the most important lesson when learning to drive is 'everyone else on the road can **** up, too', but that doesn't mean the first few lessons of every Driver's Ed course don't take place in a controlled environment without other drivers, like a closed course, or a controlled school parking lot.
My first lesson involved a main road, a bus route and several encounters with 40ft Volvos Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society Affirmative.
346
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:29:00 -
[526] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:baltec1 wrote: can you get a booster tengu/command ship in them?
Well, if it's 1v1 in frigates, I'd guess the answer is 'no'. Let's hope we get on-grid boosting soon, so we can have larger ships in the Dojos :) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13345
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:31:00 -
[527] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:baltec1 wrote:Thank you.
Next up, can you test how long the matches last and can you get a booster tengu/command ship in them? Can't you do that..? Seriously, you spend all that time in this thread arguing and portray a notable personal interest in this feature/its abolishment, yet you cannot update Duality and try it yourself before attempting to debate everyone to the ground?
No I cant. Hence why I am having to dig for info on the damn things. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
163
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:31:00 -
[528] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:My first lesson involved a main road, a bus route and several encounters with 40ft Volvos
And this was in an actual Driver's Ed course that insurance companies give premium discounts for taking, and the State allows as credit toward getting your license a year early?
That must've been a heck of an environment to learn how to get a feel for the clutch in...
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13345
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:33:00 -
[529] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:baltec1 wrote: can you get a booster tengu/command ship in them?
Well, if it's 1v1 in frigates, I'd guess the answer is 'no'.
Wouldn't be the first time we broke something like this. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13345
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:34:00 -
[530] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:baltec1 wrote:My first lesson involved a main road, a bus route and several encounters with 40ft Volvos And this was in an actual Driver's Ed course that insurance companies give premium discounts for taking, and the State allows as credit toward getting your license a year early? That must've been a heck of an environment to learn how to get a feel for the clutch in...
Its the UK. Over here you do the theory test and then get to it Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5895
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:37:00 -
[531] - Quote
Xorth Adimus wrote:Two pods enter, one pod leaves..
Edit.. Also this needs a spectator mode so anyone in system can watch. Viewable on the screen in your captains quarters. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Shoddowbroker
xMONOLITHx The Gorgon Empire
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:39:00 -
[532] - Quote
Honor PVP? Not in my eve! |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13347
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:40:00 -
[533] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Xorth Adimus wrote:Two pods enter, one pod leaves..
Edit.. Also this needs a spectator mode so anyone in system can watch. Viewable on the screen in your captains quarters.
We have 3km widescreens in space and you want a telly in a cupboard? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5895
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:43:00 -
[534] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Xorth Adimus wrote:Two pods enter, one pod leaves..
Edit.. Also this needs a spectator mode so anyone in system can watch. Viewable on the screen in your captains quarters. We have 3km widescreens in space and you want a telly in a cupboard? Billboards would be good as well. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Tawa Suyo
MINOR THREAT.
76
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:43:00 -
[535] - Quote
I do not understand how this impacts non-consensual PVP. The people using it would be consenting and the pacifists I imagine would not use it and thus be out in the open waiting for your gank.
Its important to note the idea is based around a deploy-able module that would be initiated by players. Its not a special part of space or separate star system implemented by CCP. It isn't a que you select at the log-in screen or a special server. It leaves it in the players hands to organize the event, invite other players, gather modules, etc.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5895
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:45:00 -
[536] - Quote
Yeah, unless something is broken you can only take frigates into the match/arena.
I'm more concerned as to whether a booster in system affects frigates in the arena... hopefully not.
Veritas said in his OP that he hadn't set up anything special for Concord... meaning that you'll likely have Concord interrupt your duel if you attempt one in high sec currently. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1141
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:46:00 -
[537] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Thank you.
Next up, can you test how long the matches last and can you get a booster tengu/command ship in them?
5 Minute match duration - or sooner if one party wins.
trying to warp a 3rd party to yourself in arena doesnt work.
Placing all the parts for a booster in the dojo, then selecting that as your ship for the match, DOES work.
You can be fleeted with people who are in these arenas, as can they you if you are in them. However they will not be able to warp to you.
I can see a couple of ways of how abuses could happen, but it means some serious multitask work, having one of these stocked and up in each system you run in and so much more - assuming someone would try to abuse the link alt aspect. RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5895
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:47:00 -
[538] - Quote
Also, I should point out that my opinion on this is influenced by the fact that I often have an alt in RvB, where arranged matches with your friends have absolutely no impact your desire to engage in other forms of PVP.... usually in large groups with those self same friends. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Mangala Solaris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1141
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:51:00 -
[539] - Quote
Okay, I got to within 50k km of the "arena" by warping to my alt. However this was in a bugged arena that had no timer or anything, do not take this as gospel. RvB Ganked: EVE's Number One Public Roam |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13348
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:51:00 -
[540] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Yeah, unless something is broken you can only take frigates into the match/arena.
I'm more concerned as to whether a booster in system affects frigates in the arena... hopefully not.
Veritas said in his OP that he hadn't set up anything special for Concord... meaning that you'll likely have Concord interrupt your duel if you attempt one in high sec currently.
I would expect boosters to work given that CCP have yet to solve off grid boosting. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4766
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:52:00 -
[541] - Quote
Arguing over the exact mechanics in a prototype is kind of pointless. If people have specific concerns (such as being able to run links within them, getting out of a camped station, etc), bring those up and those can be addressed if and when this gets real design work.
The arguing about if this would reduce PvP has gotten rather dumb. First of all, the reason people wouldn't be dojoing all day is because fights in the dojo don't matter in the wider eve world. They can't get you sov, they can't gain you money even.
I also find the worrying about these becoming too popular to be hilarious, frankly. The only way they would be too popular is if they are more fun than whatever else people are doing in game. That is not a problem with dojos, that is a problem with the rest of the stuff to do in game. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
566
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 19:54:00 -
[542] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Because EVE is still EVE and I will continue to fight to keep EVE from turning into a clone of all of those other failed MMOS.
And I will continue to support efforts to make EVE a more enjoyable experience for players, and I will continue to support efforts to remove unpleasantness from the game. |
Funless Saisima
Strange Energy The Bastion
56
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 20:06:00 -
[543] - Quote
Instead of Brain in a Box we get EVE Arena. Great. |
Johnathan Coffey
EVE Corporation 25112592124
17
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 20:08:00 -
[544] - Quote
Two step wrote:Arguing over the exact mechanics in a prototype is kind of pointless. If people have specific concerns (such as being able to run links within them, getting out of a camped station, etc), bring those up and those can be addressed if and when this gets real design work.
The arguing about if this would reduce PvP has gotten rather dumb. First of all, the reason people wouldn't be dojoing all day is because fights in the dojo don't matter in the wider eve world. They can't get you sov, they can't gain you money even.
I also find the worrying about these becoming too popular to be hilarious, frankly. The only way they would be too popular is if they are more fun than whatever else people are doing in game. That is not a problem with dojos, that is a problem with the rest of the stuff to do in game. *drops mic and leaves* First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5896
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 20:09:00 -
[545] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Yeah, unless something is broken you can only take frigates into the match/arena.
I'm more concerned as to whether a booster in system affects frigates in the arena... hopefully not.
Veritas said in his OP that he hadn't set up anything special for Concord... meaning that you'll likely have Concord interrupt your duel if you attempt one in high sec currently. I would expect boosters to work given that CCP have yet to solve off grid boosting. Me too, although perhaps the fact that your ship would be in a somewhat special "state" while in that arena might allow them to be coded to be unaffected by boosters. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Vincintius Agrippa
F L O O D
61
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 20:20:00 -
[546] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Greetings Spaceship Fighting Enthusiasts, Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? Well, have I got the extremely rough prototype for you to try out on Duality! Introducing: Dojos! As immortalized in the coolest video ever, IGÇÖve done a lot of programming for EVE tournaments over the past couple years, so when I found myself with a couple months of spare time, we thought itGÇÖd be a good idea for me to take a stab at seeing what kind of experience I could craft around that style of gameplay while staying true to the sandbox of EVE. There are four strong guiding principles that I applied while doing this:
- Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise.
- Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself
- We should cater as much as possible to the participant that wants a quick, easy PvP fix.
- Players should run the whole thing, with the game providing no economic value to participants nor organizers
I did of course implement boundary violations at the customary 125km. My priorities are clear. LetGÇÖs have some fun killing each other repeatedly, ~CCP Veritas
Better Title: BEYOND THUNDERDOME!!!!!!!! F$%k duality, hello tranq. Should be spread across linked systems. Matches take place at planets, stations, and the sn. A good place for 1v1's , 1v2--3's...., 20v20+ fleet fights. Cruiser fights, frig fights, CAPITOL FIGHTS! Give us a interface that lets us bet on these matches. Honestly think cap fights would be epic. Imagine 1v1 carrier brawls :) slugging it out with long range fighters. Only YOU can prevent internet bullying! |
420420
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 20:27:00 -
[547] - Quote
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Greetings Spaceship Fighting Enthusiasts, Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? Well, have I got the extremely rough prototype for you to try out on Duality! Introducing: Dojos! As immortalized in the coolest video ever, IGÇÖve done a lot of programming for EVE tournaments over the past couple years, so when I found myself with a couple months of spare time, we thought itGÇÖd be a good idea for me to take a stab at seeing what kind of experience I could craft around that style of gameplay while staying true to the sandbox of EVE. There are four strong guiding principles that I applied while doing this:
- Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise.
- Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself
- We should cater as much as possible to the participant that wants a quick, easy PvP fix.
- Players should run the whole thing, with the game providing no economic value to participants nor organizers
I did of course implement boundary violations at the customary 125km. My priorities are clear. LetGÇÖs have some fun killing each other repeatedly, ~CCP Veritas Better Title: BEYOND THUNDERDOME!!!!!!!! F$%k duality, hello tranq. Should be spread across linked systems. Matches take place at planets, stations, and the sn. A good place for 1v1's , 1v2--3's...., 20v20+ fleet fights. Cruiser fights, frig fights, CAPITOL FIGHTS! Give us a interface that lets us bet on these matches. Honestly think cap fights would be epic. Imagine 1v1 carrier brawls :) slugging it out with long range fighters.
Not happening, only goonies can have fun in eve it's the rules.
|
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
567
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 20:28:00 -
[548] - Quote
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:Imagine 1v1 carrier brawls :) slugging it out with long range fighters.
Carrier cannot break the tank of another carrier im afraid :(
But yes, in another world they maybe could rebalance capitals completely so that a carrier would be a viable offensive capital option... |
Sarkelias Anophius
Strange Energy The Bastion
37
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 20:31:00 -
[549] - Quote
this literally rapes the fundamental principles of why I play this game
if this becomes a thing and continues to receive this kind of insipid adulation... I don't know
could we at least attempt to fix the core mechanics of the game (you know, the ones that make it not a stupid ******* WoW clone, again, which I'm pretty sure we're all playing this to avoid in the first place) instead of adding niggling features that have literally no place in a sandbox game and by their very nature cheapen and dull the fine edge of elitism and frustration that make this game what it is? |
Alundil
Isogen 5
674
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 20:40:00 -
[550] - Quote
Mangala Solaris wrote:Alundil wrote:Working so no time to look at Dualkitty
Under the vague description of the proposed mechanic I get the impression that flying to the depot is not needed by the person who deploys it? Or the invited guest? That there is some in station stocking of items and match making? Is that correct?
***IF*** this makes it to TQ what reason would anyone have to deploy these anywhere else but in HS where there would be almost zero risk to assets?
48h Reinforce timer means ample time for assets to be evacuated. No bubbles means nothing actually stopping anyone from leaving with assets. Meaning no reason to bother shooting the arena deployable whatsoever.
Given most pilots in Eve will go to great lengths to minimize risk in any form I don't see this being used anywhere other than HS so that peoples assets are untouchable....and effectively unassailable while in space
Idgi The owner has to deploy it in space. The owner has to go into space to stock it. Matches can be arranged from anywhere in system it looks like, you do not necessily have to be docked. Am uncertain (not tested this aspect), if being in space in a ship already affects anything. When a match starts, players are transported from station to the arena and magically placed in the ship they choose. Participants cannot warp in or out of the arenas, or even inside it. Thank you for the response
So then no risk, ever, to the assets stored in the dojo (based on 48h reinforce timer) or the participating pilots and ships when deployed in HS space. Because of instanced arena and teleportation to said arena of pilots and ships in conjunction with the ease of evacuation of assets sans bubbles.
Not good.
I'm right behind you |
|
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
295
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 20:52:00 -
[551] - Quote
I could get behind deployable arenas only under the condition that the arena was destroyable. In otherwords, the way I would work it is that some corporation or other deploys an arena where they can set up tournaments etc. . .; that the arena is deployable in a manner akin to a pos and that it is destroyable in the same manner. This way if people want to setup tournaments they can do so, provided they can defend the arena, and the arena itself becomes part of the meta game of eve, allowing folk to disrupt the tournament/arena if they so desire. I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
LUfax
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 20:58:00 -
[552] - Quote
Dont like this...
Eve is a dangerous place, that is why I like it, If I can go pew pew without risking anything it will loose an important aspect of the game. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
475
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 20:58:00 -
[553] - Quote
If this becomes a "thing", then you are gonna see hisec carebears wanting the option to shoot corpmates removed. End to awoxing and safaris. |
X4m
Battletech Technology LowSechnaya Sholupen
39
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 21:08:00 -
[554] - Quote
bye bye free pvp eve. bye bye pirates, bye bye solo pvp, bye nullsecs, bye bye pvp, bye bye eve.
go to cosmic WOW arenas
HATE YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and....can I destroy this structure? |
Sturm Gewehr
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
16
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 21:14:00 -
[555] - Quote
First step to making Eve a competitive PVP game outside of tournaments. The important part is to, from the start, prevent abuse and exploitation. A lot of this is in the hands of the players as well as the devs. Lets support CCP as best we can with this.
The 1v1 is a good start but I think this could easily get expanded into larger teams.
What I like about having players stocking their own dojo is you can really customize the kind of fighting in your dojo. It would also be nice if there could be some sort of in game support so that players can stream their dojos and organize the contestants so that player run tournaments are possible. I think that giving individual players the tools to change how their dojo works such as: make brackets, allow it to be best of multiple matches or single/double elimination, 1v1 or team fights, module/ship/implant restrictions, changing point value for ships (huge gripe a lot of players have for AT is the point value for certain ships/ship classes), arena size, etc. Brackets don't really need to be implemented within the dojo but owners should be able to select who fights who.
Would be nice if like a pos the dojo owner could select pilots who can help run their dojo, similar to pos roles. Allow certain players to operate the cameras and stream your dojo, allow certain players to stock your dojo, certain players to referee or move the specific participants of each match.
This level of customization will cater to a much broader audience, certain dojo organizers would be able to 'compete' for their dojo's popularity and prestige. More popular/prestigious dojos could charge larger and larger amounts for entrance to their tournaments, etc. Also if launched like this it would require much less attention/maintenance from CCP moving forward. All that would be needed is bug fixes, balancing is done by players.
Adding more toys in the sandbox is good for the health of the game. Variety is the spice of life.
I still would like a global MMR arena system eventually with rewards such as skins, medals, etc. for placing high in each "season" but I will take what I can get with dojos for now, even if I don't think I will be that interested in the 1v1 format (rock paper scissor fest). |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2726
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 21:20:00 -
[556] - Quote
The rage and tears in this thread. I must invest in more buckets. |
Zappity
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
1344
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 21:24:00 -
[557] - Quote
I don't understand this. On TQ where would the ships and modules come from? Would they have to be bought and then stocked into the whatsit? Surely they wouldn't be spawned. Do the participants then pay for them? Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Domino Vyse
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
21
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 21:37:00 -
[558] - Quote
Do what you like on these random servers that nobody gives a **** about.
But keep this ******* **** idea off of ******* TQ. |
Jon Joringer
Zero-K
141
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 21:50:00 -
[559] - Quote
This is very exciting news. Duels are really fun, but they can be tampered with to no end. It would be nice to have a legitimate 'tournament' like setting in addition to all other avenues of pewpew that currently exist.
I only barely skimmed this thread, as I can see it becoming a threadnaught by day's end, and I see a whole lot of anger directed towards this idea. I just can't, for the life of me, figure out why an option that would let two willing participants fight each other, mostly free of being ****** over by others, would bother some so much. I mean, does it bother the general playerbase that tournaments exist and can't be ****** with? What's really the difference? It's not like everyone everywhere is suddenly going to stop shooting at other spaceships outside of the 'dojo' the moment this gets (if it gets) released. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 21:53:00 -
[560] - Quote
X4m wrote:bye bye free pvp eve. bye bye pirates, bye bye solo pvp, bye nullsecs, bye bye pvp, bye bye eve.
go to cosmic WOW arenas
HATE YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and....can I destroy this structure?
Friendly reminder that people were saying the same when CCP introduced duels, obviously pvp and eve died after that.
|
|
Tyr Dolorem
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 21:58:00 -
[561] - Quote
Wow really? I thought I was playing EVE not WoW. |
onefineday
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
11
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 22:00:00 -
[562] - Quote
This is like the worst idea i so from ccp in years, introducing this you removing key element from eve search for content hunts, its like playing wow or something you want pvp so you go to arena get your kills and you go spin a ship or something please stop |
PineappIe King
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 22:01:00 -
[563] - Quote
Can CCP please stop making changes to EVE Online? You are doing a horrible job and ruining this game!!!!!
If i wanted to play world of warcraft arenas I wouldnt play this eve online. WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO US???
STTTTOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3884
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 22:05:00 -
[564] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I don't understand this. On TQ where would the ships and modules come from? Would they have to be bought and then stocked into the whatsit? Surely they wouldn't be spawned. Do the participants then pay for them?
Bought/Manufactured then stocked into it.
No paying yet. But this is a rough prototype. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
263
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 22:07:00 -
[565] - Quote
Depending on how you have to insert ships into the unit and how big of the Deadspace pocket is, this can be exploited so bad it's not even funny. Safespots for Supercaps that can't be probed down here we come. Baddest poster ever |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 22:10:00 -
[566] - Quote
This change is not for blobbers, it's for people looking for 1v1s and to help the growth of a competitive pvp scene for eve (see the AT, NEO, etc).
HTFU
|
Shank Ronuken
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 22:11:00 -
[567] - Quote
CCP Prism X wrote:There's something inherently novel about submitting prototype code on a design that's quite clearly going to be controversial, and then go post about it here to create a bit of forum drama, on your second last day at CCP. Scorched Earth all the way!
Man I'm going to miss you and your Cowboy ways.
#Rekt |
Lychara Mikakka
WithoutTax.
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 22:30:00 -
[568] - Quote
Randolph Sykes wrote:You're messing with the entire ~sandbox~ thing. Don't implement this on TQ, please. This is beyond dangerous for the game.
Indeed. I can't even imagine EVE making such horrible thing. But I don't dislike it at all... Let me explain something.
EVE is a sandbox. You can do whatever you want in the game. Most of "fun" made by players and consumed by players. This is what I love in EVE and this is why I'm playing EVE. If you want 1v1 arena - go ahead and MAKE IT!! Become the central leader of all psyhopaths! Create a corp or even alliance with fabulous name like "Gladiator Arena" or "Fight club", pick a system, recrute some guards to controll the process, organize a tournament, make rules, take bets, connect Twitch.tv and stream the fights, et cetera... It's not easy, but it is possible. Game resources allows you to do so. That is something I would like to see. Maybe I'd be part of the team, maybe i'd make bets or even attack it in the middle of a duel for lulz. This is fun. And this Dojo feature is just ruining the game concept. "Duel" system is enough. You can stop now.
Pardon my bad english. I rarely post, especially on english forum, but this time i just cant stay silent. If I didnt post I will feel guilty.
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 22:42:00 -
[569] - Quote
Lychara Mikakka wrote:Randolph Sykes wrote:You're messing with the entire ~sandbox~ thing. Don't implement this on TQ, please. This is beyond dangerous for the game. Indeed. I can't even imagine EVE making such horrible thing. But I don't dislike it at all... Let me explain something. EVE is a sandbox. You can do whatever you want in the game. Most of "fun" made by players and consumed by players. This is what I love in EVE and this is why I'm playing EVE. If you want 1v1 arena - go ahead and MAKE IT!! Become the central leader of all psyhopaths! Create a corp or even alliance with fabulous name like "Gladiator Arena" or "Fight club", pick a system, recrute some guards to controll the process, organize a tournament, make rules, take bets, connect Twitch.tv and stream the fights, et cetera... It's not easy, but it is possible. Game resources allows you to do so. That is something I would like to see. Maybe I'd be part of the team, maybe i'd make bets or even attack it in the middle of a duel for lulz. This is fun. And this Dojo feature is just ruining the game concept. "Duel" system is enough. You can stop now. Pardon my bad english. I rarely post, especially on english forum, but this time i just cant stay silent. If I didnt post Iwillfeelguilty.
Eve is a sandbox, your way to play is not the only way to play.
If people are looking for fair 1v1s or train for the AT/NEO tournaments they should be able to do it, dojos won't remove player interactions and the "solo pvp" community will grow.
Eve shouldn't pander only to YOUR gameplay, AT is really popular and eve combat is fun I don't see why I have to roams for hours looking for fight just because you don't like consensual pvp.
This picture is a quick compendium of terrible posts (often made by nullsec grunts) that people made when CCP introduced duels : http://i.imgur.com/5v1zptC.jpg
You can see that eve didn't die, pvp didn't die either and it's still a sandbox. |
Andy Koraka
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
39
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 22:48:00 -
[570] - Quote
I would actually LOVE to see a live version of this show up on TQ where pilots get in their favorite ship and que up to fight solo or with friends in arena style PvP, preferably with a wide variety of brackets based on hull types and/or points, solo frig, 5v5 Cruisers, ect. and when your ship dies in the arena it's gone forever, thus staying true to EvE.
The system also shouldn't "create" ISK, but it would be best IMO if players paid a modest entry fee when they que up. That way the promise of prize money, some portion of the entry fees (90%) would draw player interest making it popular. Picture also concepts like " high stakes" dueling brackets where where each player sets down 50, or 100m to fight a frigate duel, winner take all. This too is "True to EvE" since the house (the NPCs 'organizing' the arena) gets a cut, while the players RISK their ships and ISK or the potential REWARD of their opponent's loot/entry fee |
|
Icarus Able
Revenant Tactical
486
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 23:07:00 -
[571] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Lychara Mikakka wrote:Randolph Sykes wrote:You're messing with the entire ~sandbox~ thing. Don't implement this on TQ, please. This is beyond dangerous for the game. Indeed. I can't even imagine EVE making such horrible thing. But I don't dislike it at all... Let me explain something. EVE is a sandbox. You can do whatever you want in the game. Most of "fun" made by players and consumed by players. This is what I love in EVE and this is why I'm playing EVE. If you want 1v1 arena - go ahead and MAKE IT!! Become the central leader of all psyhopaths! Create a corp or even alliance with fabulous name like "Gladiator Arena" or "Fight club", pick a system, recrute some guards to controll the process, organize a tournament, make rules, take bets, connect Twitch.tv and stream the fights, et cetera... It's not easy, but it is possible. Game resources allows you to do so. That is something I would like to see. Maybe I'd be part of the team, maybe i'd make bets or even attack it in the middle of a duel for lulz. This is fun. And this Dojo feature is just ruining the game concept. "Duel" system is enough. You can stop now. Pardon my bad english. I rarely post, especially on english forum, but this time i just cant stay silent. If I didnt post Iwillfeelguilty. Eve is a sandbox, your way to play is not the only way to play. If people are looking for fair 1v1s or train for the AT/NEO tournaments they should be able to do it, dojos won't remove player interactions and the "solo pvp" community will grow. Eve shouldn't pander only to YOUR gameplay, AT is really popular and eve combat is fun I don't see why I have to roam for hours looking for fights just because you don't like consensual pvp. This picture is a quick compendium of terrible posts (often made by nullsec grunts) that people made when CCP introduced duels : http://i.imgur.com/5v1zptC.jpgYou can see that eve didn't die, pvp didn't die either and it's still a sandbox.
You do not need anything like this to do these things. If theres something it should be player made. |
white male privilege
University of Caille Gallente Federation
38
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 23:23:00 -
[572] - Quote
create only one of these, make it permanent and place it it poitot |
Sturm Gewehr
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
17
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 23:33:00 -
[573] - Quote
I don't think people realize that the tools for arena/tournament style pvp are just not in the game unless CCP is directly organizing and running it. You cannot regulate fits, implants, boundary violations, countdowns to prevent early locking, time limits, tidi, spectator cameras that don't interfere with or can be interfered with, pod immunity, etc. If eve was "real" it would be trivial for organizations to run tournaments with these restrictions in place. You can make all the rules in the world but you have no seamless way to enforce them without the tools something like the dojo would introduce. There are mechanics for sov, facwar, dueling, pos bashes, wormholes etc. in the game but there is nothing for tournaments without CCP interaction.
There is a playerbase that highly values tournament/arena style pvp. Unfortunately this only exists on the live server twice a year in NEO and AT. Many players only pvp during these time periods because EVE otherwise does not support their style of play.
To everyone complaining about how this shouldn't be implemented because of potential XYZ exploit, this is a prototype on a test server. If we are already recognizing it now you can be sure CCP will fix it before it does go live IF it goes live. If they don't all the proponents of it will be slamming CCP for not doing something about it when it was a known issue day 1 along with the rest of you. I don't think CCP wants another monoclegate.
Giving players the tools to run their own tournaments (assuming dojos evolve to support this) is a huge boon to the small competitive pvp community and will drastically improve the quality and skill level of participants in the AT and NEO because teams will be more practiced and CCP will have more opportunities to evaluate their rules and craft a more competitive meta.
And if you don't like dojos robbing you of your content then go blow them up! It is interesting how many players here who are complaining about losing out on content belong to organizations that deliberately deny content with blue lists/NAPs/not engaging without massive superiority and also use content denial as a form of warfare.
For everyone complaining about eve no longer being safe just remember that losses do occur and the are REAL, AT runs can cost into the hundreds of billions. The ships are REAL, the ammo is REAL, when they blow up there is a REAL wreck just like anywhere else. Just because arena style combat is introduced does not mean CCP or the players are just going to pack up sov, NPC 0.0, FW, dueling, wardecs, suicide ganking, wormholes, etc. and just focus on dojos.
Also keep in mind if this becomes a well implemented function within the game it could draw more subscribers. Not everyone who starts playing eve because they heard about a giant sov fight actually goes into sov warfare. Not everyone who does dojos will do dojos 100% of the time.
|
Sturm Gewehr
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
17
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 23:34:00 -
[574] - Quote
Icarus Able wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:Lychara Mikakka wrote:Randolph Sykes wrote:You're messing with the entire ~sandbox~ thing. Don't implement this on TQ, please. This is beyond dangerous for the game. Indeed. I can't even imagine EVE making such horrible thing. But I don't dislike it at all... Let me explain something. EVE is a sandbox. You can do whatever you want in the game. Most of "fun" made by players and consumed by players. This is what I love in EVE and this is why I'm playing EVE. If you want 1v1 arena - go ahead and MAKE IT!! Become the central leader of all psyhopaths! Create a corp or even alliance with fabulous name like "Gladiator Arena" or "Fight club", pick a system, recrute some guards to controll the process, organize a tournament, make rules, take bets, connect Twitch.tv and stream the fights, et cetera... It's not easy, but it is possible. Game resources allows you to do so. That is something I would like to see. Maybe I'd be part of the team, maybe i'd make bets or even attack it in the middle of a duel for lulz. This is fun. And this Dojo feature is just ruining the game concept. "Duel" system is enough. You can stop now. Pardon my bad english. I rarely post, especially on english forum, but this time i just cant stay silent. If I didnt post Iwillfeelguilty. Eve is a sandbox, your way to play is not the only way to play. If people are looking for fair 1v1s or train for the AT/NEO tournaments they should be able to do it, dojos won't remove player interactions and the "solo pvp" community will grow. Eve shouldn't pander only to YOUR gameplay, AT is really popular and eve combat is fun I don't see why I have to roam for hours looking for fights just because you don't like consensual pvp. This picture is a quick compendium of terrible posts (often made by nullsec grunts) that people made when CCP introduced duels : http://i.imgur.com/5v1zptC.jpgYou can see that eve didn't die, pvp didn't die either and it's still a sandbox. You do not need anything like this to do these things. If theres something it should be player made.
Take out all the sov mechanics in game and then tell all the sov players to make their own mechanics and regulate sov in their own way.
Let me know how well it goes over.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
166
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 23:56:00 -
[575] - Quote
X4m wrote: and....can I destroy this structure?
Good job demonstrating you haven't read any of the thread. Yes, the deployable can be killed. |
Lychara Mikakka
WithoutTax.
6
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 00:04:00 -
[576] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: Eve is a sandbox, your way to play is not the only way to play. Eve shouldn't pander only to YOUR gameplay
Please, read carefully. I never said otherwise.
Bamboozlement wrote: If people are looking for fair 1v1s or train for the AT/NEO tournaments they should be able to do it
Wha~?! Wait, they are not? Is this forbidden? CCP, explain yourself.
Bamboozlement wrote: I don't see why I have to roam for hours looking for fights
Neither do I.
Bamboozlement wrote: just because you don't like consensual pvp.
Wha~?! When did I say those?!
Bamboozlement wrote: You can see that eve didn't die, pvp didn't die either and it's still a sandbox.
Read carefully, I never said otherwise. Solo pvp is dead because people want it dead, also. My opinion here is - "If you are to lazy to make it yourself - you dont need it".
Friendly reminder that all above is my personal, subjective, unjustified opinion. I never said that MY OPINION = FACT. The reason I'm leaving posts here is to give my feedback on those feature to CCP. Still, my opinion will stay the same. No doubt the same goes for yours and everyone elses. |
Haedonism Bot
Revolutionary Front
1387
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 00:09:00 -
[577] - Quote
EVE does not need this type of "arena" experience. Any group of players can already always fight each other anywhere, anytime. If you want a 1v1 with somebody, you can already offer to duel them. Sure, they may show up with neutral logi and wreck your day - that's the whole spirit of the sandbox. You should never be 100% sure that you are going to get a fair fight. If anything, fair fights should be rare and accidental.
No, I don't think this will kill the game, but it is another step on the road to ThemePark EVE. You guys should know better than that. There are plenty of other game companies out there that do the whole themepark thing better than you do. CCP simply can't compete in that market. You are best off to veer back towards the sort of content that makes EVE unique and special - player generated content. Stick to giving us new and better tools with which to ruin each other's day - leave all that themepark bullshit to WoW and its ilk. www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com
Psychotic Monk for CSM9 |
Sven Viko VIkolander
Friends and Feminists
277
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 00:29:00 -
[578] - Quote
Sturm Gewehr wrote:I don't think people realize that the tools for arena/tournament style pvp are just not in the game unless CCP is directly organizing and running it. You cannot regulate fits, implants, boundary violations, countdowns to prevent early locking, time limits, tidi, spectator cameras that don't interfere with or can be interfered with, pod immunity, etc. If eve was "real" it would be trivial for organizations to run tournaments with these restrictions in place. You can make all the rules in the world but you have no seamless way to enforce them without the tools something like the dojo would introduce. There are mechanics for sov, facwar, dueling, pos bashes, wormholes etc. in the game but there is nothing for tournaments without CCP interaction.
There is a playerbase that highly values tournament/arena style pvp. Unfortunately this only exists on the live server twice a year in NEO and AT. Many players only pvp during these time periods because EVE otherwise does not support their style of play.
To everyone complaining about how this shouldn't be implemented because of potential XYZ exploit, this is a prototype on a test server. If we are already recognizing it now you can be sure CCP will fix it before it does go live IF it goes live. If they don't all the proponents of it will be slamming CCP for not doing something about it when it was a known issue day 1 along with the rest of you. I don't think CCP wants another monoclegate.
Giving players the tools to run their own tournaments (assuming dojos evolve to support this) is a huge boon to the small competitive pvp community and will drastically improve the quality and skill level of participants in the AT and NEO because teams will be more practiced and CCP will have more opportunities to evaluate their rules and craft a more competitive meta.
And if you don't like dojos robbing you of your content then go blow them up! It is interesting how many players here who are complaining about losing out on content belong to organizations that deliberately deny content with blue lists/NAPs/not engaging without massive superiority and also use content denial as a form of warfare.
For everyone complaining about eve no longer being safe just remember that losses do occur and the are REAL, AT runs can cost into the hundreds of billions. The ships are REAL, the ammo is REAL, when they blow up there is a REAL wreck just like anywhere else. Just because arena style combat is introduced does not mean CCP or the players are just going to pack up sov, NPC 0.0, FW, dueling, wardecs, suicide ganking, wormholes, etc. and just focus on dojos.
Also keep in mind if this becomes a well implemented function within the game it could draw more subscribers. Not everyone who starts playing eve because they heard about a giant sov fight actually goes into sov warfare. Not everyone who does dojos will do dojos 100% of the time.
QFT, well said mate. People should pay attention to the feedback offered by the players that ~actually~ use and enjoy this sort of content, people who offer reasons for how this would be useful for their player style, rather than the F1 monkeys complaining in this thread who do not seem to realize that many mechanics for relatively controlled PVP already exist and are enjoyed by many. |
Quindaster
Infernal Laboratory Infernal Octopus
105
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 00:37:00 -
[579] - Quote
I see how many dumb people cry - it will be same as duel... So, I want to say, WE DON"T have ANY duel in EVE at all! When you start duel with someone and 5 neutral logi start to rep your enemy - it's not a due. So, this people who cry about duel - they dumb.
I see how people cry - it will kill EVE... So, I want to say, EVE is ALREADY DEAD GAME! Every day we lose players who leave EVE, old, good players, and we don't have any replacement on theys places, only Jita scammers and mining bots what get EVE, thats all.
We was waiting for this dodjo for many years, like in many other games this is primory gaming style.
Problem in EVE is - you need to spend 5-10 h to find any target, and or you will find 100 members blob, or nothing, and if you spend 4-5h, maybe you will find some cruser on the gate who never read security channels. And for this people leave Eve because they don't have 4-5-10 h for one kill, and they would simply go in World of Tanks and get fast fights before they go to sleep and not sit for nothing 4-5-10h.
Whole managment in EVE - absolutely dumb because you was need to create this - Arena 5-7 year ago.
About dodjo:
- you need to make access to this dodjo arena from any station simply by clicking - arena button. - you need to be use any ship you want from your hangar - you need to be able play in team or random team vs other team, and select team 10 vs 10 or 5 vs 5 or 20 vs 20. - you need to be able use any ship and without any crazy and dumb limit like you have on AT, and without any stupid points for ship. - you need to remove abillity to shoot at own team members, because some idiots will try to crash this game and they will try to shoot blues, you need to set them some negative status so they will not be able later to join any other team, so people will try to up own statistic and play fair or they will get negative status and will not be able to play anymore in dodjo. - you need to cleate abillity to play groups, teams BC vs BC, BS vs BS, Capitals VS Capitals, and random ships vs random ships. So people can select which game style and ship they want to play. And they need to be able to use logistics ships too if they want in team, no limit, just create different groups, teams where you can join on different ship to that team.
This will be cool and intresting if you will really work on this dodjo and not just create **** like most of CCP "new things" |
newfage
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 00:53:00 -
[580] - Quote
Sturm Gewehr wrote:I don't think people realize that the tools for arena/tournament style pvp are just not in the game unless CCP is directly organizing and running it. You cannot regulate fits, implants, boundary violations, countdowns to prevent early locking, time limits, tidi, spectator cameras that don't interfere with or can be interfered with, pod immunity, etc. If eve was "real" it would be trivial for organizations to run tournaments with these restrictions in place. You can make all the rules in the world but you have no seamless way to enforce them without the tools something like the dojo would introduce. There are mechanics for sov, facwar, dueling, pos bashes, wormholes etc. in the game but there is nothing for tournaments without CCP interaction.
There is a playerbase that highly values tournament/arena style pvp. Unfortunately this only exists on the live server twice a year in NEO and AT. Many players only pvp during these time periods because EVE otherwise does not support their style of play.
To everyone complaining about how this shouldn't be implemented because of potential XYZ exploit, this is a prototype on a test server. If we are already recognizing it now you can be sure CCP will fix it before it does go live IF it goes live. If they don't all the proponents of it will be slamming CCP for not doing something about it when it was a known issue day 1 along with the rest of you. I don't think CCP wants another monoclegate.
Giving players the tools to run their own tournaments (assuming dojos evolve to support this) is a huge boon to the small competitive pvp community and will drastically improve the quality and skill level of participants in the AT and NEO because teams will be more practiced and CCP will have more opportunities to evaluate their rules and craft a more competitive meta.
And if you don't like dojos robbing you of your content then go blow them up! It is interesting how many players here who are complaining about losing out on content belong to organizations that deliberately deny content with blue lists/NAPs/not engaging without massive superiority and also use content denial as a form of warfare.
For everyone complaining about eve becoming safe just remember that losses do occur and the are REAL, AT runs can cost into the hundreds of billions. The ships are REAL, the ammo is REAL, when they blow up there is a REAL wreck just like anywhere else. Just because arena style combat is introduced does not mean CCP or the players are just going to pack up sov, NPC 0.0, FW, dueling, wardecs, suicide ganking, wormholes, etc. and just focus on dojos.
Also keep in mind if this becomes a well implemented function within the game it could draw more subscribers. Not everyone who starts playing eve because they heard about a giant sov fight actually goes into sov warfare. Not everyone who does dojos will do dojos 100% of the time.
I hope you guys are getting in contact with CCP about this, it's funny because for years people have been complaining that "solo pvp is dead" (hence the bringing solo back channel) and that CCP don't care about solo pvp, CCP Rise literally got a job because his solo pvp videos were interesting and popular, the NEO and AT streams are always popular and a lot of non-eve players come to see what's going on.
Dojos will bring tons of content to eve, who cares if nullsec people irrelevant to the competitive side of eve aren't happy about having less blob targets? And seriously it won't stop people soloing against the odds because it's also fun, it just adds more options.
Good idea CCP. |
|
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1356
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 01:00:00 -
[581] - Quote
Not sure if it's been asked, but will there be a way for dojos to be in WH or simulate the effects? Or am j totally off-base here? |
Sven Viko VIkolander
Friends and Feminists
277
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 01:00:00 -
[582] - Quote
I have read most of this thread and I've yet to find an actual argument with quantifiable evidence that this feature would harm EVE. I have, though, read lots of posts in this thread about how this feature would help their gameplay. So I think the "in favor" side is decidedly winning in terms of actual reasons, but these are the EVE forums after all.
Instead of evidence, what you get in this thread from those that oppose this feature is, largely, a mess of subjectivity, such as the following:
1) You have people in this thread saying they do not like this type of PVP, then inferring that, therefore, it shouldn't be in game.
2) You have people in this thread claiming that the dojo is not "in the spirit of EVE," and, therefore, that it has no place in the game. These people overwhelmingly seem to be F1 monkeys who also do not realize that solo PVP, dueling, and tournaments also exist in EVE, as well as semi-controlled environments like RVB and faction war complexes--and also that a huge amount of the player base enjoys these types of content.
3) Some of the people in this thread saying this will "kill EVE" are also people whom I recognize as frequently saying "EVE is dying" elsewhere on the forum. If the game is already dying why does it matter? If it adds new players and makes some bitter vets leave isn't that win/win?
4) Some people say it is not consistent with EVE as a sandbox, therefore there should not be mechanisms for controlled fights (though see #2 above again). Yet, apparently "EVE is a sandbox" on this forum frequently just means "nothing should be in this game that I dislike." No substantive reasons have been given for how this lessens sandbox gameplay, given that real ships are lost, the structures can be destroyed, it helps players practice for tournaments, it is entirely optional, and players can/will quickly find ways of disrupting dojo gameplay if they want (such as, for starters, blowing it up). |
Sir Livingston
Club Deadspace
251
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 01:31:00 -
[583] - Quote
me no like EVE Online. Is there a game more worthwhile to play? Nope. http://www.youtube.com/JonnyPew |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6223
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 01:39:00 -
[584] - Quote
Considering that the dueling mechanic was brought in for this express purpose, the entire idea of dojos is laughable. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6223
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 01:41:00 -
[585] - Quote
Mangala Solaris wrote:To all who may be bemoan the end of consensual TQ pvp, note that this is a prototype, on a server that "doesnt matter", and may not ever make it past being a thing on duality.
Sorry, sometimes I forget that CCP has a track record of never implementing terrible ideas. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
|
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1521
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 01:57:00 -
[586] - Quote
If you don't like it you will not have to participate.
Or you can just hunt the dojos and blow them up as it is unlikely they will be in hisec, so low or null (or wh)
I don't know about the LAWS of Eve but I have an idea that the basic principles could be summarized best as
We want Everything to be Buildable, Destroyable, Up for grabs I don't see how the Dojo conceptual prototype (because that is what it is right now) violates the above. No more than station trading does because the guy won't come out where I can kill him. Or those pesky hisec dudes who refuse to leave the umbrella of Concord. Do you apply the same logic and conlude that those things are wrong?
IF dojos happen
It will be buildable You can blow it up Contents and prizes will be up for grabs
I like the idea . . . in case you cannot tell but I like something even MORE
CCP is floating an idea past you without promises, without fanfair, without you all signing an NDA
You wanted to be part of the conversation . . . stop having tantrums and converse. If you like it, say so, if you like it with conditionals, suggest them, If you don't like it say what is wrong without just saying sandbox and crossing your arms :colbert:
It has no date of release because they are just trying it out to see if it can be done. Treat it accordingly and calm down.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Suitonia
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
347
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 01:57:00 -
[587] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Considering that the dueling mechanic was brought in for this express purpose, the entire idea of dojos is laughable.
Anyone who has ever tried to find a fight, or arrange one via the Dueling mechanic will quickly find out how limited it is. Get ready for station de-aggro redock, or multiple logistic alts, almost always with a booster alt somewhere in system. That aside, I think too many people are focusing on the 1v1 nature of the Dojo, and not in it's ability to potentially host multiple person fights if this was expanded upon, limit fits, adhere to tournament rules.
If you have ever tried to host a Tournament on Eve, even in Singularity, you'll know what a massive headache it is to have people show up with the correct fittings, maintain the rules, and keep the tournament organizers sane. Contributer to Eve is Easy:-á https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Check out my PvP Rifter guide for new players; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YReUNRTGcXo |
Suitonia
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
347
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 02:03:00 -
[588] - Quote
On the subject of useful things for this feature.
- Be able to set a list of 'allowed' participants, either via standings, or some other method such as a dojo password. You don't want some guys who aren't even taking part in your tournament/dojo to just show up and constantly duel eachother for the sake of blowing up your ships which are stored inside the Dojo to disrupt it. - Possibly disallow player to be in a fleet when in the dojo to prevent leadership skills and gang links from interfering with the fight - Put in some check for implants, It would probably be too complicated to make a list of allowed implants, but maybe you could have 3 settings like; 1) No Restrictions (All implants are allowed) 2) Tournament Rules (implants up to 3% implants are allowed) 3) Complete Restriction (No Implants are allowed aside from attribute only implants) Contributer to Eve is Easy:-á https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Check out my PvP Rifter guide for new players; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YReUNRTGcXo |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1763
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 03:08:00 -
[589] - Quote
so this is how EVE dies... to thunderous applause. Epic Space Cat |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2844
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 03:14:00 -
[590] - Quote
i do like the idea of an arena and i also believe there is no reason why it would not work in eve when done right.
let me go through the list: - ingame resources are used, if you lose the ship you lost the ship -> check - arena itself is destroyable -> check
The implementation detail i don't like however is the fact that the fight happens in a unwarpable area of space. Thats really unusual for eve and i believe it will cause more problems then it solves. You could argue however that it takes place inside the arena building and the current implementation is only a workaround till something like that is possible.
If it would take place inside the arena you could go even further and let other people dock at the building (for the duration of the fight) which would allow spectating the fight. (you better undock if the arena is under attack etc)
so after thinking about it +1 from me (remember its a prototype) eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
|
Brink Albosa
Screaming Hayabusa Neo-Bushido Movement
42
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 03:14:00 -
[591] - Quote
Well...
I hope they implement this right.. I can see where it might be cool.
Wish list:
-Easy interface -Players able to set any parameter (No links, ecm, etc) -Ideally I would like to see 1v1 Frigate tournaments, I could give a **** about the big stuff or AT, NEO. Player run tourneys are cool. -Some kind of way to reward the winner in the form of a medal (even if outside of corp?) or trophy or something -Be able to look at a league's history
On the other hand, I still don't like it. I don't like it at all.
This does violate the core fundamentals of Eve.
They say Eve is dying. This being implemented wrong could kill my Eve. Catering to the instant gratification crowd might make money in the short term and I don't see this being an esport outside of the niche Eve community.
I just hope after this there are still solo frigate pilots still undocking.
I'll hold my breath for now.
-1 |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1764
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 04:32:00 -
[592] - Quote
"If you don't like it, don't participate" is such a bad argument, especially in the context of the Butterfly Effect - everyone IS participating, if not in the feature itself, but all the consequences and ripples it produces. Epic Space Cat |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
206
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 05:05:00 -
[593] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote:baltec1 wrote:You still need that risk otherwise its just going to suck in all of the 1v1 frigate fights. I see your "It will hurt small scale PvP" and raise you a "It will SHIFT small scale PvP into controlled and fair environments". If the change would attract a lot of people, then *maybe* it is a change that people actually want. Which means I am correct in saying it will kill pvp outside of it. That isn't good for EVE.
Then you need to be asking yourself why it will kill outside pvp? Remember this: not everyone has a sea of blues and instant jabber pings to back them up **** hits the fan.
Explain to me why it will kill outside pvp and then you can fix outside pvp so that these two can co-exist.
-Hot drops -Capital drops -Gate camps with cloaked falcon/carrier on standby -Links + broken ships; see garmur -Only finding 10 man gangs with 5 logi and 1 BB -Blueball strategies where the plan is to avoid all fights to make people avoid your space -Roams lasting hours with no viable targets for your solo ship; see gangs/camps/etc
Amazing that while I enjoy all of that listed above it would be nice to avoid all of that from time to time to have a truly 100% skills-based fight where no one can interfere to see how good you really outside the "blob" fleets --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
889
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 05:22:00 -
[594] - Quote
What an absolute crock of shite.
The whole idea of Eve is someone somewhere can come and throw sand in your face. Instanced, WoW'esk style arenas that don't allow people to interfere is bullshit.
I often enjoy solo (proper solo, no falcon alt, scout or links) PvP were I am outmatched and outgunned. I enjoy the thrill of the fight where when I do engage someone a second or third group can come and intefere with the fight.
If these arenas are introduced, people will simply stay docked all day in queues waiting for fights like some kid from WoW waiting for a Raid...(Might as well introduce instanced Raids for Incursions that cant be interfered with (those idiots would love this) and remove skillbooks and go for XP instead).
Keep this bullshit of TQ...
This caters to people who: a) Cant be arsed to find fights. b) Dont have a clue what they are doing when they are outmatched. c) Dont like the fact other people can come interfere and kick sand in their face. Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13359
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 05:23:00 -
[595] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:baltec1 wrote:Johnathan Coffey wrote:baltec1 wrote:You still need that risk otherwise its just going to suck in all of the 1v1 frigate fights. I see your "It will hurt small scale PvP" and raise you a "It will SHIFT small scale PvP into controlled and fair environments". If the change would attract a lot of people, then *maybe* it is a change that people actually want. Which means I am correct in saying it will kill pvp outside of it. That isn't good for EVE. Then you need to be asking yourself why it will kill outside pvp? Remember this: not everyone has a sea of blues and instant jabber pings to back them up **** hits the fan. Explain to me why it will kill outside pvp and then you can fix outside pvp so that these two can co-exist. -Hot drops -Capital drops -Gate camps with cloaked falcon/carrier on standby -Links + broken ships; see garmur -Only finding 10 man gangs with 5 logi and 1 BB -Blueball strategies where the plan is to avoid all fights to make people avoid your space -Roams lasting hours with no viable targets for your solo ship; see gangs/camps/etc Amazing that while I enjoy all of that listed above it would be nice to avoid all of that from time to time to have a truly 100% skills-based fight where no one can interfere to see how good you really outside the "blob" fleets
Give people a safe, easy and instant option to pvp then that is what they will pick. The fewer people out and about the fewer targets you have when roaming which only makes the appeal of instant access to solo pvp all the greater. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
742
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 05:25:00 -
[596] - Quote
Would like this on tq would brake my fingers doing it rather than avoiding 30 ppl blob chasing my cruiser in capitals.
I think entry fee should be implemented.
This can be huge buff to noobross to explore ships and pvp as well as teaming up with other ppl before venturing in low and blue sec. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
New Order Logistics CODE.
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 05:45:00 -
[597] - Quote
I'm aware of and fully understand the concerns of the players who are vouching for "fair fights" and e-bushido. It seems, though, that this concept doesn't fit in very well into the sandbox, even if you have to actually pay with ISK for having a duel on Duality (heh, note the pun). What has kept me going in EVE for almost three years now (with a couple of characters biomassed, but still going nevertheless) is that sense of purpose in all your actions, the feeling that everything you do has consequences. What is proposed here is the most bleached, refined type of PvP, or, basically, shooting spaceships for the sake of shooting spaceships in a modelled, constructed and strictly controlled environment.
If I were so keen on such kind of PvP, I'd sign up for Star Citizen. I hear, even in its pre-alpha state, your enemies tend to explode in a far more spectacular fashion over there than they do in EVE. Plus, you don't have to grind ISK for a new ship. If this element of consentual PvP is so badly needed, it still probably will be better it is kept inside the sandbox, not outside. If people start spending more time on Duality then on Tranquility, what's the point playing an MMO game? Those arena matches in Star Citizen are very nice, thay say.
Now, let's take the "new player" argument: dojos are necessary because new players need an environment where they can learn how to fly. The new player has become a sort of a sacred cow these days - a significant part of ideas here, both good and stupid, revolve around the sentiment that "this should help new players". Well, maybe, they're right, new players need a safe environment to practice. But then, let's implement the real noob zone: a chunk of max-sec space where you have endless supply of Veldspar to mine with your Venture, a countless stock of free Rifters and modules for them, and where no one is allowed to shoot you unless you give them your permission. Since you can't expect a player who's only been a few hours into the game to set up access to Sisi to enjoy flying free ships without character constraints, this will be a nice demo for him (by the way, does anyone else miss those demo versions that game developers used to make instead of stupid pre-orders, or is it just me?).
Let people train and learn in this greenhouse as much as they want, but once they leave that safe zone, they leave it for good. This game within a game will need to have limited functionality, of course: you can pilot all ships and use all modules, but you don't have anything bigger and better than T1 frigates (and, maybe, destroyers and cruisers, too), or something of a sort. A greenhouse is a greenhouse. After all, this dojo-style refined consentual PvP has a lot in common with sex "with no strings attached" - fun, but very unlikely to result in a long-term relationship.
As for the rest of the player base... guys, you already have the duel mechanic, and this game was a sandbox last time I checked! What keeps you from going to the corp or role-playing forum and setting up an "E-bushido Honorabru Dojo Duel Fight Club", writing the rules like "no firing after structure is hit", assiging the moderators and referees who will scan ships before each fight, blacklisting trolls and griefers, etc.? What's the problem? I suspect, the answer will be "Grrr, effort" masked by a popular excuse like "Grrr, Goons" or "Grrr, Code". I know, it isn't a job that will make the instant gratification monkey sitting inside you very happy. But look at the advantages! Before long, you and your club mates will become real buddies, and your awesome club might become as trendy as RvB! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5486
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 05:49:00 -
[598] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Considering that the dueling mechanic was brought in for this express purpose, the entire idea of dojos is laughable. Anyone who has ever tried to find a fight, or arrange one via the Dueling mechanic will quickly find out how limited it is. Get ready for station de-aggro redock, or multiple logistic alts, almost always with a booster alt somewhere in system. That aside, I think too many people are focusing on the 1v1 nature of the Dojo, and not in it's ability to potentially host multiple person fights if this was expanded upon, limit fits, adhere to tournament rules. If you have ever tried to host a Tournament on Eve, even in Singularity, you'll know what a massive headache it is to have people show up with the correct fittings, maintain the rules, and keep the tournament organizers sane.
And there you have it.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. And messing with duels brings this reaction.
I don't see myself using this feature because I suck at this game but anything that brings new options to players and how they want to go about it is always a good thing. Some people want space bushido, others hate it. Nobody is getting a gun pointed at them and told what to do (that's for lowsec har har). Thank you CCP devs. Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Sturm Gewehr
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
22
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 05:50:00 -
[599] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:"If you don't like it, don't participate" is such a bad argument, especially in the context of the Butterfly Effect - everyone IS participating, if not in the feature itself, but all the consequences and ripples it produces.
This is also a bad argument because it has already been discussed that the dojos will ripple through eve. Dojos are destroyable.
The dojos are part of the butterfly effect. They are sports arena you can blow up and potentially loot. There is risk/reward involved, they are construct-able and destruct-able. They generate content for participants and those who want to blow them up. They require being set up and protected to continue being used. You need to move assets to them in order to stock them, this involves logistics with haulers/freighters.
There is already "instanced" pvp twice a year in AT/neo, but these have zero ability to be influenced by third parties outside of meta gaming. You can actually stop these from happening using in game mechanics.
There are a lot of people who don't bother with eve because it sometimes takes hours to find something engage-able. More people logged in and in space = more content for butterfly effect. There are lots of people with busy schedules who just play a moba match or two, a few wow arenas, or watch a tv show instead of playing eve. These new or returning players would have 0 impact on your game if not for dojos, they are actually adding ripples, not detracting.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
166
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 05:51:00 -
[600] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Give people a safe, easy and instant option to pvp then that is what they will pick. The fewer people out and about the fewer targets you have when roaming which only makes the appeal of instant access to solo pvp all the greater.
Except it's not really safe. Sure, your pod won't get blown up, but most pvp right now doesn't kill pods, either. And it's not that easy for the guy who's got to set the thing up, either.
I'm still waiting to find out if the stuff inside can be pulled once it's RF'd, but the fact that you have to manually stock it from a hauler or carrier means that just putting one of these out there puts more at risk than 1v1 duelling at the sun. |
|
Darth Vokial
R.I.P. Legion Dream Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 05:55:00 -
[601] - Quote
This is the dumbest idea in the history of the game. EVE is not the WOW, it is the possibility of free assassination player anywhere in the galaxy and made unialny game content. Do not hammer the final nail in the coffin of EVE! |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
169
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 06:00:00 -
[602] - Quote
Darth Vokial wrote:This is the dumbest idea in the history of the game. EVE is not the WOW, it is the possibility of free assassination player anywhere in the galaxy and made unialny game content. Do not hammer the final nail in the coffin of EVE!
How's that 'assassinating market alts who never undock in jita' going for you? |
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
890
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 06:05:00 -
[603] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Darth Vokial wrote:This is the dumbest idea in the history of the game. EVE is not the WOW, it is the possibility of free assassination player anywhere in the galaxy and made unialny game content. Do not hammer the final nail in the coffin of EVE! How's that 'assassinating market alts who never undock in jita' going for you? By constantly undercutting their prices in the form of market PvP that's how... Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 06:08:00 -
[604] - Quote
Seraph Essael wrote:Arrendis wrote:How's that 'assassinating market alts who never undock in jita' going for you? By constantly undercutting their prices in the form of market PvP that's how...
Amazingly, that's not 'assassinating'. Thanks, and try again. |
Fu Qjoo
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
7
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 06:19:00 -
[605] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Eshnala wrote:Just make the dojo destructable, including everything thats in there. Then you have the option to interfere with it. and don't make them easy to build put them around the Cruiser level and maybe make the BPCs only spawn in Jove space
adjusted |
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
890
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 06:20:00 -
[606] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Seraph Essael wrote:Arrendis wrote:How's that 'assassinating market alts who never undock in jita' going for you? By constantly undercutting their prices in the form of market PvP that's how... Amazingly, that's not 'assassinating'. Thanks, and try again. Yeah, I should have probably put the roll eyes face ()at the end of that statement. Or even /sarcasm... I would have thought you would be able to tell I was being sarcastic... Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
Eshnala
TURN LEFT The Camel Empire
52
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 07:25:00 -
[607] - Quote
Sturm Gewehr wrote:I don't think people realize that the tools for arena/tournament style pvp are just not in the game unless CCP is directly organizing and running it. You cannot regulate fits, implants, boundary violations, countdowns to prevent early locking, time limits, tidi, spectator cameras that don't interfere with or can be interfered with, pod immunity, etc. If eve was "real" it would be trivial for organizations to run tournaments with these restrictions in place. You can make all the rules in the world but you have no seamless way to enforce them without the tools something like the dojo would introduce. There are mechanics for sov, facwar, dueling, pos bashes, wormholes etc. in the game but there is nothing for tournaments without CCP interaction.
There is a playerbase that highly values tournament/arena style pvp. Unfortunately this only exists on the live server twice a year in NEO and AT. Many players only pvp during these time periods because EVE otherwise does not support their style of play.
To everyone complaining about how this shouldn't be implemented because of potential XYZ exploit, this is a prototype on a test server. If we are already recognizing it now you can be sure CCP will fix it before it does go live IF it goes live. If they don't all the proponents of it will be slamming CCP for not doing something about it when it was a known issue day 1 along with the rest of you. I don't think CCP wants another monoclegate.
Giving players the tools to run their own tournaments (assuming dojos evolve to support this) is a huge boon to the small competitive pvp community and will drastically improve the quality and skill level of participants in the AT and NEO because teams will be more practiced and CCP will have more opportunities to evaluate their rules and craft a more competitive meta.
And if you don't like dojos robbing you of your content then go blow them up! It is interesting how many players here who are complaining about losing out on content belong to organizations that deliberately deny content with blue lists/NAPs/not engaging without massive superiority and also use content denial as a form of warfare.
For everyone complaining about eve becoming safe just remember that losses do occur and the are REAL, AT runs can cost into the hundreds of billions. The ships are REAL, the ammo is REAL, when they blow up there is a REAL wreck just like anywhere else. Just because arena style combat is introduced does not mean CCP or the players are just going to pack up sov, NPC 0.0, FW, dueling, wardecs, suicide ganking, wormholes, etc. and just focus on dojos.
Also keep in mind if this becomes a well implemented function within the game it could draw more subscribers. Not everyone who starts playing eve because they heard about a giant sov fight actually goes into sov warfare. Not everyone who does dojos will do dojos 100% of the time.
QFT, listen to this man. |
Yngvar ayShorn
Unknown Dimension Alpha Volley Union
5
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 08:00:00 -
[608] - Quote
Sturm Gewehr wrote:I don't think people realize that the tools for arena/tournament style pvp are just not in the game unless CCP is directly organizing and running it. You cannot regulate fits, implants, boundary violations, countdowns to prevent early locking, time limits, tidi, spectator cameras that don't interfere with or can be interfered with, pod immunity, etc. If eve was "real" it would be trivial for organizations to run tournaments with these restrictions in place. You can make all the rules in the world but you have no seamless way to enforce them without the tools something like the dojo would introduce. There are mechanics for sov, facwar, dueling, pos bashes, wormholes etc. in the game but there is nothing for tournaments without CCP interaction.
There is a playerbase that highly values tournament/arena style pvp. Unfortunately this only exists on the live server twice a year in NEO and AT. Many players only pvp during these time periods because EVE otherwise does not support their style of play.
To everyone complaining about how this shouldn't be implemented because of potential XYZ exploit, this is a prototype on a test server. If we are already recognizing it now you can be sure CCP will fix it before it does go live IF it goes live. If they don't all the proponents of it will be slamming CCP for not doing something about it when it was a known issue day 1 along with the rest of you. I don't think CCP wants another monoclegate.
Giving players the tools to run their own tournaments (assuming dojos evolve to support this) is a huge boon to the small competitive pvp community and will drastically improve the quality and skill level of participants in the AT and NEO because teams will be more practiced and CCP will have more opportunities to evaluate their rules and craft a more competitive meta.
And if you don't like dojos robbing you of your content then go blow them up! It is interesting how many players here who are complaining about losing out on content belong to organizations that deliberately deny content with blue lists/NAPs/not engaging without massive superiority and also use content denial as a form of warfare.
For everyone complaining about eve becoming safe just remember that losses do occur and the are REAL, AT runs can cost into the hundreds of billions. The ships are REAL, the ammo is REAL, when they blow up there is a REAL wreck just like anywhere else. Just because arena style combat is introduced does not mean CCP or the players are just going to pack up sov, NPC 0.0, FW, dueling, wardecs, suicide ganking, wormholes, etc. and just focus on dojos.
Also keep in mind if this becomes a well implemented function within the game it could draw more subscribers. Not everyone who starts playing eve because they heard about a giant sov fight actually goes into sov warfare. Not everyone who does dojos will do dojos 100% of the time.
+1 ----ákimmt widder was hii, wennsch dehaam bin-á--- (dammiches Browser-Dingens @ work) |
Josef Djugashvilis
2536
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 08:15:00 -
[609] - Quote
This is the best idea CCP have come up with since 'loot spew'
Let us hope it goes the same way.
Unless of course they promise to never introduce it onto TQ.
Then, who cares? This is not a signature. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5185
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 08:38:00 -
[610] - Quote
at risk of labouring the point ill echo what others have said, there is no need for this to come to tranquillity.
i have no issue with this as a tool for tourneys on the test servers but outside of that the concept here is making me uncomfortable. =]I[= |
|
KatanTharkay
V I R I I Ineluctable.
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 08:56:00 -
[611] - Quote
Good, finally a tool that will introduce most players to PVP. All those newbros, mission runners and miners that never try it will now have a chance and who knows, maybe they'll get a taste for it. And while I'll wait for the big alliance ops to start, maybe i'll just use and an alt for a quick dojo combat to ease the boredom. Or maybe I'll just log for 15 minutes and fight in the dojos instead of logging only 1 minute to change the skills because I'm too bored with EVE and I'm past beyond the willingness to waste any more time looking for a fight that might not come.
And: EVE Champions League \o/ |
Josef Djugashvilis
2536
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 08:58:00 -
[612] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:at risk of labouring the point ill echo what others have said, there is no need for this to come to tranquillity.
i have no issue with this as a tool for tourneys on the test servers but outside of that the concept here is making me uncomfortable.
Dear sir, CCP have only come up with this due to the overwhelming demand from the player base for it.
What do you mean, what demand? This is not a signature. |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
1032
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 09:23:00 -
[613] - Quote
I don't really care if there is a deadspace pocket or not. Or maybe something that you can warp into the arena right after you killed the dojo.
But tools to make a tournament run by players is what I want. German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
Erin Crawford
263
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 09:36:00 -
[614] - Quote
X4m wrote:bye bye free pvp eve. bye bye pirates, bye bye solo pvp, bye nullsecs, bye bye pvp, bye bye eve.
go to cosmic WOW arenas
HATE YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and....can I destroy this structure?
Quote:HATE YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Really? Really...? How old are you?
But, why only stop here at being so unrealistic? While we're on a roll lets continue...
So, let me list the rest of EVE's components that will undoubtably also be killed off by this monstrosity of an EVE killing Dojo...
bye bye exploration bye bye suicide ganking bye bye roaming gangs bye bye ninja looting bye bye hunting botters bye bye mercs bye bye rp bye bye salvaging bye bye mission ganking bye bye markets bye bye market manipulation bye bye station trading bye bye contract scamming bye bye reprocessing bye bye mining bye bye pi bye bye booster production bye bye r&d bye bye invention bye bye manufacturing bye bye wh life bye bye ratting bye bye incursions bye bye mission running bye bye salvaging bye bye cosmos bye bye epic arcs bye bye gate camping bye bye scamming bye bye pos bashing bye bye corp theft bye bye factional warefare bye bye rvb bye bye wardec grieving bye bye hauling bye bye courier contracting bye bye drug production bye bye t1, t2, t2 production bye bye capital production bye bye ded complexes bye bye anomalies bye bye jita 4-4 bye bye... bye... ...
Yes! You are so right, the Dojo will without a shadow of a doubt completely kill everything in EVE! Might as well give up now! This, after all, is it - the Dojo is here and EVE dead!
From now on just don't even bother logging in... ...in fact, just unplug your PC right now!
At least once you have unsubbed and unplugged the rest of us will continue enjoying the game and all the future additions and developments(many with which you may have issues with) that have yet to come.
I for one am glad CCP Veritas took the time and effort to develop something new that can be enjoyed by all and anyone and not just a minuscule handful of EVEs player-base that are allowed to take part in tournaments.
I hope this goes live and permanent on TQ and asap too! |
PastyWhiteDevil
Mayhem and Ruin Point Blank Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 09:46:00 -
[615] - Quote
Two step wrote:Where is this magic new requirement that you must be able to screw up what people want to do on their own time coming from?
Welcome to eve. Don't want to be screwed with? Then I'd recommend staying docked up. Enjoy your stay.
|
PastyWhiteDevil
Mayhem and Ruin Point Blank Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 09:55:00 -
[616] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:This is the best idea CCP have come up with since 'loot spew'
Let us hope it goes the same way.
Unless of course they promise to never introduce it onto TQ.
Then, who cares?
anyone playing on TQ should care. everything is painfully empty because there r 19k people using this on the test server which is making the ACTUAL GAME very unenjoyable at the moment. |
Erin Crawford
263
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 10:03:00 -
[617] - Quote
PastyWhiteDevil wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:This is the best idea CCP have come up with since 'loot spew'
Let us hope it goes the same way.
Unless of course they promise to never introduce it onto TQ.
Then, who cares? anyone playing on TQ should care. everything is painfully empty because there r 19k people using this on the test server which is making the ACTUAL GAME very unenjoyable at the moment.
But doesn't that in itself suggest that, just maybe, there's an interest in this type of game play? |
Austrene Kanenald
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 10:08:00 -
[618] - Quote
How does this work though? I don't have access to a computer, so I can't go and see. Are ships lost or can you just pvp as much as you want and never lose a ship? Do you need the skills to fly a fit or does the ship/modules just need to be there? Or is it just a controlled combat arena? If it's just that, I'm fine with it. Otherwise, I want a dislike button. |
Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
91
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 10:12:00 -
[619] - Quote
Querns wrote:baltec1 wrote:Querns wrote:baltec1 wrote: This thing is not compatible with the sandbox in its current state.
Neither is Singularity, and yet Eve seems to be okay despite this. How are dojos any different than logging onto Singularity and doing the same thing? They would be on the main server. My point is that if you want no-consequence PvP, you can already log into Singularity and do it there. Dojos don't add anything new to Eve in this regard. Except that dojos have consequences: the owner of the dojo pays for the ships. EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager. |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
1032
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 10:23:00 -
[620] - Quote
Austrene Kanenald wrote:How does this work though? I don't have access to a computer, so I can't go and see. Are ships lost or can you just pvp as much as you want and never lose a ship? Do you need the skills to fly a fit or does the ship/modules just need to be there? Or is it just a controlled combat arena? If it's just that, I'm fine with it. Otherwise, I want a dislike button.
Try to read the first post? Right now it's just a POC (Proof of concept) code from a single dev in his free time. And the current implementation you need to drop the modules into the Dojo, you need skills and you will lose the ship if you die. German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 10:39:00 -
[621] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:so this is how EVE dies... to thunderous applause.
"Eve will die if you don't agree with me"
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5189
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 11:02:00 -
[622] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Xuixien wrote:so this is how EVE dies... to thunderous applause. "Eve will die if you don't agree with me" That's Not what she was saying and you know it. =]I[= |
Chirality Tisteloin
Zervas Aeronautics Get Off My Lawn
40
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 11:08:00 -
[623] - Quote
Sturm Gewehr wrote:I don't think people realize that the tools for arena/tournament style pvp are just not in the game unless CCP is directly organizing and running it. You cannot regulate fits, implants, boundary violations, countdowns to prevent early locking, time limits, tidi, spectator cameras that don't interfere with or can be interfered with, pod immunity, etc. If eve was "real" it would be trivial for organizations to run tournaments with these restrictions in place. You can make all the rules in the world but you have no seamless way to enforce them without the tools something like the dojo would introduce. There are mechanics for sov, facwar, dueling, pos bashes, wormholes etc. in the game but there is nothing for tournaments without CCP interaction.
There is a playerbase that highly values tournament/arena style pvp. Unfortunately this only exists on the live server twice a year in NEO and AT. Many players only pvp during these time periods because EVE otherwise does not support their style of play.
To everyone complaining about how this shouldn't be implemented because of potential XYZ exploit, this is a prototype on a test server. If we are already recognizing it now you can be sure CCP will fix it before it does go live IF it goes live. If they don't all the proponents of it will be slamming CCP for not doing something about it when it was a known issue day 1 along with the rest of you. I don't think CCP wants another monoclegate.
Giving players the tools to run their own tournaments (assuming dojos evolve to support this) is a huge boon to the small competitive pvp community and will drastically improve the quality and skill level of participants in the AT and NEO because teams will be more practiced and CCP will have more opportunities to evaluate their rules and craft a more competitive meta.
And if you don't like dojos robbing you of your content then go blow them up! It is interesting how many players here who are complaining about losing out on content belong to organizations that deliberately deny content with blue lists/NAPs/not engaging without massive superiority and also use content denial as a form of warfare.
For everyone complaining about eve becoming safe just remember that losses do occur and the are REAL, AT runs can cost into the hundreds of billions. The ships are REAL, the ammo is REAL, when they blow up there is a REAL wreck just like anywhere else. Just because arena style combat is introduced does not mean CCP or the players are just going to pack up sov, NPC 0.0, FW, dueling, wardecs, suicide ganking, wormholes, etc. and just focus on dojos.
Also keep in mind if this becomes a well implemented function within the game it could draw more subscribers. Not everyone who starts playing eve because they heard about a giant sov fight actually goes into sov warfare. Not everyone who does dojos will do dojos 100% of the time.
+1
See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/ |
Bendy Profane
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
17
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 11:39:00 -
[624] - Quote
Niraia wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? It's easier to find fights when more people are out there looking for them. Cool idea, but please don't add this to TQ That's the reason why I'm very sceptical as well. If this hits TQ, it will get even harder to find solo fights outside of it. And despite my offgrid boosting hate, I'm not interested at all in any kind of controlled environment fights. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 11:47:00 -
[625] - Quote
Bendy Profane wrote:Niraia wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? It's easier to find fights when more people are out there looking for them. Cool idea, but please don't add this to TQ That's the reason why I'm very sceptical as well. If this hits TQ, it will get even harder to find solo fights outside of it. And despite my offgrid boosting hate, I'm not interested at all in any kind of controlled environment fights.
This won't magically remove people from fw, pirates won't leave their precious space to have fair fights, people won't stop gatecamping, people won't stop running sites/plexes because "muh isk".
But now you don't have to roam for hours (sometimes to get no good fights at all) to get a decent fight.
It's only bad from a blobber perspective because they might lose a small part of their targets but honestly people won't stop flying against the odds.. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
692
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 12:00:00 -
[626] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Noriko Mai wrote:I tried it and I like it very much. This is a prototype and I see a lot of potential in that idea. All you leet people here whinning about the dead of 1v1 are just ridiculous. Flying for hours and searching for someone to kill with your off grid booster and cyno ready, is just pathetic and should not be the focus of PvP oriented gameplay design. Arenas are fine for people that want just fights. No drama, no ogb, no falcon, no blob, just figts. PvP in general - 1v1, fleet, blob, whatever - in my opinion should happen where player interests collide. This can be sov or fw or hunting explorers, haulers, or other juicy targets whereever you want. But it should focus on the friction that different interests generate.
So *thumbs up* from me. I hope the feature get's more dev time and focus to become a great arena implementation with betting, tournaments and competitions, maybe even leaderboards, crack and whores. As I said, who wants to go hunt things and risk being blobbed when you can push button get fight.
Seemed fights were easy to fight last night. Vlil, Nenn, Hallanen, Akidagi. Hell Vlil was over 200. |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
1032
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 12:10:00 -
[627] - Quote
Caviar Liberta wrote:baltec1 wrote:Noriko Mai wrote:I tried it and I like it very much. This is a prototype and I see a lot of potential in that idea. All you leet people here whinning about the dead of 1v1 are just ridiculous. Flying for hours and searching for someone to kill with your off grid booster and cyno ready, is just pathetic and should not be the focus of PvP oriented gameplay design. Arenas are fine for people that want just fights. No drama, no ogb, no falcon, no blob, just figts. PvP in general - 1v1, fleet, blob, whatever - in my opinion should happen where player interests collide. This can be sov or fw or hunting explorers, haulers, or other juicy targets whereever you want. But it should focus on the friction that different interests generate.
So *thumbs up* from me. I hope the feature get's more dev time and focus to become a great arena implementation with betting, tournaments and competitions, maybe even leaderboards, crack and whores. As I said, who wants to go hunt things and risk being blobbed when you can push button get fight. Seemed fights were easy to fight last night. Vlil, Nenn, Hallanen, Akidagi. Hell Vlil was over 200.
It does not seem that you found that many solo fights https://zkillboard.com/character/608550982/kills/solo/ At least not with that char. German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
51
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 12:17:00 -
[628] - Quote
So... which CSM members ok-ed this? Speak up, no need to be afraid... |
Noriko Mai
1531
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 12:24:00 -
[629] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:baltec1 wrote: Give people a safe, easy and instant option to pvp then that is what they will pick. The fewer people out and about the fewer targets you have when roaming which only makes the appeal of instant access to solo pvp all the greater.
Except it's not really safe. Sure, your pod won't get blown up, but most pvp right now doesn't kill pods, either. And it's not that easy for the guy who's got to set the thing up, either. I'm still waiting to find out if the stuff inside can be pulled once it's RF'd, but the fact that you have to manually stock it from a hauler or carrier means that just putting one of these out there puts more at risk than 1v1 duelling at the sun. Yes. I can move stuff in and out of my reinforced dojo. Just like the mobile depot. -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
Chirality Tisteloin
Zervas Aeronautics Get Off My Lawn
40
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 12:25:00 -
[630] - Quote
(Honest Disclaimer: I didn't make it to the test server yet)
Is the instant teleport from station into the deadspace pocket an intended feature or just limitation of the prototype? How does this interact with Station Camps? Would the dojo not provide a backdoor to escape from the station?
Can't the dojo deployable be an acceleration gate? The owner of the dojo could get a blueprint to produce keys. Keys have to be carried in the cargo hold to access the Dojo. Keys might even drop See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/ |
|
Milan Nantucket
New Eden Misfits
181
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 12:27:00 -
[631] - Quote
Randolph Sykes wrote:Sierra Payne wrote:Please elaborate.
What do you need to be elaborated? The lack of artificial boundaries is what makes EVE a sandbox game, its USP. And this is a clearest example of such artificial boundaries. Deployment of such a feature on TQ is going to kill a lot of pvp-related things. You are going to struggle finding a fight anywhere other than these dojos. Why? If I want to find a fight now - I need to roam around. I need to know where to find targets. I need to know how to get a fight - to catch a prey or to make myself look like a prey. There is a risk to end up in a camp, to be overwhelmed, to be jammed by a sudden Falcon - and this is what makes EVE pvp awesome. But a lot of people would prefer dojos to the sandbox pvp, because it's much easier. Just like a lot of other promises broken this will be another.
You say you want to fight in a dojo then get in line and wait... speaking of not having time this will make it worse although it is not an issue now. If i have little time then I know where to go. No line and no waiting.
How long until you turn off pvp in high sec and require people to have fun in the dojo? |
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 12:37:00 -
[632] - Quote
Erin Crawford wrote:PastyWhiteDevil wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:This is the best idea CCP have come up with since 'loot spew'
Let us hope it goes the same way.
Unless of course they promise to never introduce it onto TQ.
Then, who cares? anyone playing on TQ should care. everything is painfully empty because there r 19k people using this on the test server which is making the ACTUAL GAME very unenjoyable at the moment. But doesn't that in itself suggest that, just maybe, there's an interest in this type of game play?
There no doubt is. there are plenty of players playing various call of duty titles, titanfall, battlefield, and others. There is an incredible demand for matchmade pvp games. so much in fact that theres a new one multiple times a year and rarely retains playable value after a year or two. I'd wager if CCP could compete in this rapid gratification/matchmade market DUST would actually be popular.
Why should those looking for a quick opportunity to get a decent fight get the satisfaction of one? Over those that could spend a bit of time to find one? Why should we reward those looking for less effort? Eve has always rewarded those putting in the extra work to get an edge.
Honestly this isn't just about the prototype feature, its about the mindset of catering to the casual players over hardcore players. This is where it gets personal and people get emotional and angry. The more dedicated have shown it by their years of subscriptions. And like incarna, this has the potential to attract more casual players and the expense of content for the others.
18k on TQ and 20k on arenas online is direct reduction of player related content in the live server. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8357
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 12:43:00 -
[633] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:If you don't like it you will not have to participate.
Ok, let me get it straight, "if you don't like something the represent a sea change in the game mechanics of EVE online, you don't have to participate".
EVE succeeds because it's not other games. It doesn't do what other games do, it pretty much does the opposite. Moving away from a winning formula is and will always be a mistake. As a CSM, it's your job to council CCP against such mistakes, to remind them of past mistakes and bad thinking so as to preserve for them their livelihoods and to preserve for us our passtime/hobby. When the CSM is short-sighted enough to not see a mistake in the making 'because it looks cool', the whole community is in trouble (not that this hasn't happened before, "farms and fields" and "incarna" spring to mind).
Non-consensual pvp (like the single shard nature of the game and the 'death penalty' that means something) is at the heart of EVE. For people like me (PVE players who know we're still in a pvp based game) being able to use our smarts to do what we enjoy while manually PREVENTING unwanted disruption is as much fun as the actual pve content. I think real PVPr's will say the same, and introducing things like this (as presented) goes counter to intelligent development and evolution of this particular unique game. On the whole it doesn't affect me one bit, but does something have to affect someone personally to be wrong? The obvious answer is no. Anything that smacks of instancing and instant gratification are wrong for this game.
It's almost like a Government skirting around it's own laws and policies to do something it wants to do, in this case CCP is the government and the policy (universal non-consensual pvp being possible against ANY ship in space) is damn near constitutional. This particular concern can be fixed the same way Tech3s were fixed: make scanning possible and devilishly hard even with the best skills and gear. NEARLY unscannable is proper, unscannable is not.
Can CCP not develop cool stuff within the bounds of their very own original (and unique) concept? If they can't, doesn't that mean that the themepark MMO makers are right and Sandbox developers like CCP are failures?
If CCP goes through with this (as it's presented now), and the CSM enthusiastically consents to something that you guys should be able to see is a mistake, we all (company and customer) suffer as a result, because it means that basic concepts of EVE Online are up for chopping if they get in the way of "something that's cool" (or something that promises higher profits).
EVE Online (it's core, and it's spirit) means more than that to me, and it should to you too. |
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 12:45:00 -
[634] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:The training aspect is certainly true. In our first encounter testing it, I whooped Veritas and now he remembers to overheat! I assume he used this knowledge to take down Habakuk this morning Confirming both aspects of this post.
Confirming CCP needs to play their game more. I'm anxiously awaiting CCP Falcon to weigh in. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8357
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 12:46:00 -
[635] - Quote
Evora Pirkibo wrote:Erin Crawford wrote:PastyWhiteDevil wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:This is the best idea CCP have come up with since 'loot spew'
Let us hope it goes the same way.
Unless of course they promise to never introduce it onto TQ.
Then, who cares? anyone playing on TQ should care. everything is painfully empty because there r 19k people using this on the test server which is making the ACTUAL GAME very unenjoyable at the moment. But doesn't that in itself suggest that, just maybe, there's an interest in this type of game play? There no doubt is. there are plenty of players playing various call of duty titles, titanfall, battlefield, and others. There is an incredible demand for matchmade pvp games. so much in fact that theres a new one multiple times a year and rarely retains playable value after a year or two. I'd wager if CCP could compete in this rapid gratification/matchmade market DUST would actually be popular. Why should those looking for a quick opportunity to get a decent fight get the satisfaction of one? Over those that could spend a bit of time to find one? Why should we reward those looking for less effort? Eve has always rewarded those putting in the extra work to get an edge.
Honestly this isn't just about the prototype feature, its about the mindset of catering to the casual players over hardcore players. This is where it gets personal and people get emotional and angry. The more dedicated have shown it by their years of subscriptions. And like incarna, this has the potential to attract more casual players and the expense of content for the others. 18k on TQ and 20k on arenas online is direct reduction of player related content in the live server.
+1
Bolded the truth here..
No one is trying to poo poo on anyone's fun. We're just asking for smart development. OF COURSE if you make instant gratification stuff people will flock to it. If you need to do that, why not just shut down EVE and make some LoL/Tanks style game and rake in the cash?
|
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
1032
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 12:53:00 -
[636] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:If you don't like it you will not have to participate. Ok, let me get it straight, "if you don't like something the represent a sea change in the game mechanics of EVE online, you don't have to participate".[...] Non-consensual pvp (like the single shard nature of the game and the 'death penalty' that means something) is at the heart of EVE. For people like me (PVE players who know we're still in a pvp based game) being able to use our smarts to do what we enjoy while manually PREVENTING unwanted disruption is as much fun as the actual pve content. I think real PVPr's will say the same, and introducing things like this (as presented) goes counter to intelligent development and evolution of this particular unique game. On the whole it doesn't affect me one bit, but does something have to affect someone personally to be wrong? The obvious answer is no. Anything that smacks of instancing and instant gratification are wrong for this game. [..]
So remove the dead space and automoving part, that should remove the instancing part, no? Whats left is a potential tool to organize a tournament, where it's the player responsibility to stand for a non disrupted fight. Maybe even add some crimewatch foo so that everyone or just some players get suspect when entering the arena.
That would bring the AT closer to TQ, while people still can disrupt the sh*t out of it if they dare to.
PS: What does " a sea change" mean? German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 12:55:00 -
[637] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:+1
Bolded the truth here..
No one is trying to poo poo on anyone's fun. We're just asking for smart development. OF COURSE if you make instant gratification stuff people will flock to it. If you need to do that, why not just shut down EVE and make some LoL/Tanks style game and rake in the cash?
Nice logical fallacy, there is a difference between adding more options to eve, especially when it's relevant to an under-designed part of the gameplay (see AT/NEO tournamenents, solo pvp community) and making a lol game.
"if you don't agree with me eve is lol"
|
Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
147
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 12:58:00 -
[638] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Evora Pirkibo wrote:Erin Crawford wrote:PastyWhiteDevil wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:This is the best idea CCP have come up with since 'loot spew'
Let us hope it goes the same way.
Unless of course they promise to never introduce it onto TQ.
Then, who cares? anyone playing on TQ should care. everything is painfully empty because there r 19k people using this on the test server which is making the ACTUAL GAME very unenjoyable at the moment. But doesn't that in itself suggest that, just maybe, there's an interest in this type of game play? There no doubt is. there are plenty of players playing various call of duty titles, titanfall, battlefield, and others. There is an incredible demand for matchmade pvp games. so much in fact that theres a new one multiple times a year and rarely retains playable value after a year or two. I'd wager if CCP could compete in this rapid gratification/matchmade market DUST would actually be popular. Why should those looking for a quick opportunity to get a decent fight get the satisfaction of one? Over those that could spend a bit of time to find one? Why should we reward those looking for less effort? Eve has always rewarded those putting in the extra work to get an edge.
Honestly this isn't just about the prototype feature, its about the mindset of catering to the casual players over hardcore players. This is where it gets personal and people get emotional and angry. The more dedicated have shown it by their years of subscriptions. And like incarna, this has the potential to attract more casual players and the expense of content for the others. 18k on TQ and 20k on arenas online is direct reduction of player related content in the live server. +1 Bolded the truth here.. No one is trying to poo poo on anyone's fun. We're just asking for smart development. OF COURSE if you make instant gratification stuff people will flock to it. If you need to do that, why not just shut down EVE and make some LoL/Tanks style game and rake in the cash? Because you won't be using dojos to: - Defend assets (POS, POCO, dojo) - Attack assets (POS, POCO, dojo) - Hunt players taking "your" resources - Attempt to gain sov - Attempt to take sov - Kill ratters and PVE'ers for the luls - Fight for FW sites for higher tier rewards - Engage smack-talkers and settle a grudge
If anything dojos make PVP more relevant; a real point to it. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2731
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:05:00 -
[639] - Quote
EVE's "winning formula" has turned it into a game where nullsec is stagnant, people can and do roam 40j without finding anything (either because they're not allowed to shoot the half of EVE that's blue to them or because all they find are risk-averse pilots who dock/pos up) and where people log out and play other games as a way to pass the time.
Is that really okay? Are you really saying "EVE should be this game that people log out of to go play something else"?
Let's not forget how so-called 1v1 virtually requires you to have an offgrid boosting alt (because the other guy does) and how there's just so much PvP in highsec that isn't docking games or ganks.
So yeah. Dojos will totally kill EVE. Because EVE is in the best state it's ever been in.
Oh and Jenn? You don't even PvP. At all. So get out of this thread.
One last thing: None of you crying change-averse bittervets seem to realize that this isn't on TQ. It hasn't been announced for TQ. It hasn't even been put on SiSi. It's on Duality and nobody has said the first thing about it going to any other server. So HTFU and STFU or GTFO. YOU are the cancer that is killing EVE. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8357
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:08:00 -
[640] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:If you don't like it you will not have to participate. Ok, let me get it straight, "if you don't like something the represent a sea change in the game mechanics of EVE online, you don't have to participate".[...] Non-consensual pvp (like the single shard nature of the game and the 'death penalty' that means something) is at the heart of EVE. For people like me (PVE players who know we're still in a pvp based game) being able to use our smarts to do what we enjoy while manually PREVENTING unwanted disruption is as much fun as the actual pve content. I think real PVPr's will say the same, and introducing things like this (as presented) goes counter to intelligent development and evolution of this particular unique game. On the whole it doesn't affect me one bit, but does something have to affect someone personally to be wrong? The obvious answer is no. Anything that smacks of instancing and instant gratification are wrong for this game. [..] So remove the dead space and automoving part, that should remove the instancing part, no? Whats left is a potential tool to organize a tournament, where it's the player responsibility to stand for a non disrupted fight. Maybe even add some crimewatch foo so that everyone or just some players get suspect when entering the arena. That would bring the AT closer to TQ, while people still can disrupt the sh*t out of it if they dare to. PS: What does " a sea change" mean?
Sea Change
I'm not a fan of the readily available arena pvp thing but I could live with it. But yea, to me the main problem is the deadspace thing, NOTHING in space except a noob in a noob system should be "un-screw-with-able" and i say this as someone not inclined to 'screw with' anyone. What EVE is matters.
They get rid of the unscannable pocket in space thing and (while i don't like the idea of arenas ,EVE's Arena is called EVE Online) I'm more or less cool with it. Even if that pocket was 'damn near' impossible to scan down with the best skills and gear, that would be in keeping with the 12 year tradition of this game.
|
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8357
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:14:00 -
[641] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:EVE's "winning formula" has turned it into a game where nullsec is stagnant, people can and do roam 40j without finding anything (either because they're not allowed to shoot the half of EVE that's blue to them or because all they find are risk-averse pilots who dock/pos up) and where people log out and play other games as a way to pass the time.
Is that really okay? Are you really saying "EVE should be this game that people log out of to go play something else"?
Let's not forget how so-called 1v1 virtually requires you to have an offgrid boosting alt (because the other guy does) and how there's just so much PvP in highsec that isn't docking games or ganks.
So yeah. Dojos will totally kill EVE. Because EVE is in the best state it's ever been in. Is the sarcasm thick enough yet?
Oh and Jenn? You don't even PvP. At all. So get out of this thread. You have no place here.
One last thing: None of you crying change-averse bittervets seem to realize that this isn't on TQ. It hasn't been announced for TQ. It hasn't even been put on SiSi. It's on Duality and nobody has said the first thing about it going to any other server. So HTFU and STFU or GTFO. YOU are the cancer that is killing EVE.
I play EVE Online, so I damn will comment on something that stands to become a major policy change.
No one is 'change-averse", we're simply hoping that people wise up and stop being "change for change's sake" lemmings who don't understand that their personal boredom with the game is personal, and not some problem with the concept of EVE Online. Because that is what is potentially being screwed with here, the CONCEPT of EVE online.
Also, it's funny you mention SOV null, a place that is only in the state it is because developers listend to people who were bored with POs grinding and thus demanded these 'cool' changes that would 'open up' null sec to 'small groups' but giving people 'small group objectives'.....like IHUBS with a bazillion hit points. Dojos are (at the end of the day) the same kind of Naive thinking that always leads to trouble.
While unhappy with these prototyped dojos, I will happily Bookmark this here thread to remind you about your enthusiasm for this project in about a year.
|
Noriko Mai
1531
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:15:00 -
[642] - Quote
There are still a lot of questions so I try to summarize what I know.
- Just a mobile depot with a new function. CCP Veritas already said it's easier to take already existing stuff and modify it a little to get a somehow functional prototype. I don't think any stat of that structure has any relevance at the moment.
You deploy that thing and put a lot of ships and modules in it.
- Select 'Busisness' > 'Calculator' from Neocom (yes it's a Prototype).
- A new window opens where you can select the dojo you want to use. All dojo in system are accessible. Select Dojo of your choice. [img]
- A new window opens where you see the Charges, Ships and Modules in that dojo, all your saved fitting, a small are with your name and status. [img]
- If you have a fitting that can completely be fitted with stuf in that dojo it is shown as available.
- Select fitting, click ready and wait.
- Someone else joins the same dojo, selcts a fitting and clicks ready.
- You both are teleported from station (Doesn't work from space. Both participants must be in a station or bad bugs happen, because of prototype) to a random (every time new) deadspace pocket somewhere in the solar systen. Both sit at 0km on a beacon in that pocket (again, because prototype)
- A new window opens with a 45 second timer (warm up). No one can move, but you can activate modules. You can leave your ship, but your pod can't move either. You can board you ship again. (Please don't ask about MJD and stuff, it's a prototype and not a balanced and tested feature) (You can **** around a little bit with logging out and stuff, but this are just some exploits that have no meaning to the feature itself)
- Everyone reloads his guns, because the charges of the selected fitting are in your cargo.
- 45 seconds are over a new 5 minutes timer starts.
- Fight begins. You can move and can lock your target (wasn't possible while warm up).
- Flying >125km away from the beacon makes your ship go boom and you loos -> Match ends. Losing makes your ship go boom and you loose -> Match ends. Winning makes the enemy go boom and you win -> Match ends. Waiting for the 5min timer make both go boom -> Match ends.
- The match result itself has absolutally no meaning at the moment. The match just ends and everyone wakes up in his old original clone in station.
- The deadspace pocket disappears immideatelly after the match ends. So making a bookmark and warping to it gives you a safespot and nothing more. No beacon, no wreack, nothing there.
- Warping to a someone in your fleet who is in a fight a deadspace pocket, warps you to the dojo.
- Stats of the dojo doesn't matter, because it' just a mobile depot with a bazzilion of m3 to make the prototype work
- As mentioned above, there are a lot of ways to exploit that prototype. It may be because it's a prototype, who knows...
I hope it can clear up some confusion about the state and implementation of this prototype (not feature).
It's interesting how a lot of people here don't know how it works, didn't try it on duality and don't understand what the word 'prototype' means, but still a throwing tantrum like bonkers. -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. Brave Collective
174
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:19:00 -
[643] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:+1
Bolded the truth here..
No one is trying to poo poo on anyone's fun. We're just asking for smart development. OF COURSE if you make instant gratification stuff people will flock to it. If you need to do that, why not just shut down EVE and make some LoL/Tanks style game and rake in the cash?
Nice logical fallacy, there is a difference between adding more options to eve, especially when it's relevant to an under-designed part of the gameplay (see AT/NEO tournaments, solo pvp community) and making a lol game. "if you don't agree with me eve is lol"
Says the champion in this topic of logical fallacies. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:24:00 -
[644] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Sea ChangeI'm not a fan of the readily available arena pvp thing but I could live with it. But yea, to me the main problem is the deadspace thing, NOTHING in space except a noob in a noob system should be "un-screw-with-able" and i say this as someone not inclined to 'screw with' anyone. What EVE is matters. They get rid of the unscannable pocket in space thing and (while i don't like the idea of arenas ,EVE's Arena is called EVE Online) I'm more or less cool with it. Even if that pocket was 'damn near' impossible to scan down with the best skills and gear, that would be in keeping with the 12 year tradition of this game.
I think you don't understand that the point of having dojos is to provide fair and controlled fights, fair and controlled fights existed in eve for a long time (the first AT was in 2005) just because CCP only used funny stories about betrayal, awox, theft and big 10% tidi battles to market eve till now doesn't mean it's not a valid part of the gameplay.
I mean, CCP is working hard to provide a good and professional AT stream, you don't like it fine it's a sandbox you can go do something else.
Look at the eve numbers after big battles : http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility now look what happens months after that.. We are literally back to 2008 tier of average people online, CCP listened to people like you for years I hope they are tired of listening to people with metagame agendas.
|
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. Brave Collective
174
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:26:00 -
[645] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Look at the eve numbers after big battles : http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility now look what happens months after that.. We are literally back to 2008 tier of average people online, CCP listened to people like you for years I hope they are tired of listening to people with metagame agendas.
... and another one. You really can't stop, can you? |
S'No Flake
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
41
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:26:00 -
[646] - Quote
X4m wrote:bye bye free pvp eve. bye bye pirates, bye bye solo pvp, bye nullsecs, bye bye pvp, bye bye eve.
go to cosmic WOW arenas
HATE YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and....can I destroy this structure?
Seriously... do you think there are so many people willing to set up Dojo everywhere in EVE and supply them with their funds so, 27k people from 30k logged will do arena all day long and nothing else?
Can't you imagine the funds and logistics needed for something like this? And even if people have enough money and enough people are willing to move around and supply these things... 27k people doing arena all day long will drain the entire market of t1 frigs and t1/meta mods in matter of weeks.
This is not going to happen. These things will be used for fun and giggles by a small part of the player base.
And if you read the damn thread you will see that this structure have a reinforcement timer and you can blow it up. |
S'No Flake
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
41
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:28:00 -
[647] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I don't understand this. On TQ where would the ships and modules come from? Would they have to be bought and then stocked into the whatsit? Surely they wouldn't be spawned. Do the participants then pay for them?
Did you read the damn thread? Whoever deploys the Dojo will have to fund it from his pocket with ships and mods bought from market. Plus, somebody will have to move all that stuff to the dojo. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:28:00 -
[648] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Says the champion in this topic of logical fallacies.
Feel free to highlight my logical fallacies and say why I'm wrong, you know like I just did for him.
Unlike you, I don't just post "you're wrong because I don't agree with you", right now you're just circlejerking. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8358
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:29:00 -
[649] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sea ChangeI'm not a fan of the readily available arena pvp thing but I could live with it. But yea, to me the main problem is the deadspace thing, NOTHING in space except a noob in a noob system should be "un-screw-with-able" and i say this as someone not inclined to 'screw with' anyone. What EVE is matters. They get rid of the unscannable pocket in space thing and (while i don't like the idea of arenas ,EVE's Arena is called EVE Online) I'm more or less cool with it. Even if that pocket was 'damn near' impossible to scan down with the best skills and gear, that would be in keeping with the 12 year tradition of this game. I think you don't understand that the point of having dojos is to provide fair and controlled fights, fair and controlled fights existed in eve for a long time (the first AT was in 2005) just because CCP only used funny stories about betrayal, awox, theft and big 10% tidi battles to market eve till now doesn't mean it's not a valid part of the gameplay. I mean, CCP is working hard to provide a good and professional AT stream, you don't like it fine it's a sandbox you can go do something else. Look at the eve numbers after big battles : http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility now look what happens months after that.. We are literally back to 2008 tier of average people online, CCP listened to people like you for years I hope they are tired of listening to people with metagame agendas.
There should never be anything close to an enforced fair fight in EVE outside of events like the AT and NEO. That belongs in other games like LoL or tanks. |
Bendy Profane
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
18
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:29:00 -
[650] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Let's not forget how so-called 1v1 virtually requires you to have an offgrid boosting alt (because the other guy does) This is simply not true. You can have lots of good solo fights without offgrid boosting. |
|
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:30:00 -
[651] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:+1
Bolded the truth here..
No one is trying to poo poo on anyone's fun. We're just asking for smart development. OF COURSE if you make instant gratification stuff people will flock to it. If you need to do that, why not just shut down EVE and make some LoL/Tanks style game and rake in the cash?
Nice logical fallacy, there is a difference between adding more options to eve, especially when it's relevant to an under-designed part of the gameplay (see AT/NEO tournaments, solo pvp community) and making a lol game. "if you don't agree with me eve is lol"
Funny, using the word logical fallacy. You've established a predictable pattern of oversimplifying and/or exaggerating an argument of the opposition, and then comparing it to the sentiment of "agree with me or your dumb" or some variation to similar effect. Funnier still, in almost every post you wrote the words "logical fallacy" you engage in one yourself.
Be that as it may, AT/NEO style structured combat isn't part of the gameplay, it never has been.
And you do not speak for the solo community. As someone who has enjoyed the fruits of solo pvp for a few years I can say from experience you never have to roam 1-4 hours for a fight. Solo pvp has been quite alive.
Edit: By solo, i mean single account pvp |
S'No Flake
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
41
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:31:00 -
[652] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:Depending on how you have to insert ships into the unit and how big of the Deadspace pocket is, this can be exploited so bad it's not even funny. Safespots for Supercaps that can't be probed down here we come.
But plz implement it, it will make using low skilled alts for FW plexing much easier with lesser people hunting for you and give people a new way to transfer across the galaxy without using Jump Clones.
A match lasts 5min. After that the pocket it's gone. Even if you use an interceptor and burn the pocket it will still take you a few minutes to reach out. By the time you do that and cyno in your caps to move them in the pocket, the pocket will be already gone.
Have fun doing that.
Also, you can't move around without clones. From the station you spawn in the pocket. You die or the match ends in 5min, you end back in the station. You can't even warp out of the damn thing. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:33:00 -
[653] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: There should never be anything close to an enforced fair fight in EVE outside of events like the AT and NEO. That belongs in other games like LoL or tanks.
This is just your opinion, people like the AT/NEO and solo pvp, CCP is providing content for this part of the population and they obviously want to promote competitive eve gameplay.
It always existed, but for years we had no real platform to train and grow our community, CCP is fixing this.
This isn't relevant to you fine, but your way to play eve isn't the only way. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8358
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:38:00 -
[654] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: There should never be anything close to an enforced fair fight in EVE outside of events like the AT and NEO. That belongs in other games like LoL or tanks.
This is just your opinion, people like the AT/NEO and solo pvp, CCP is providing content for this part of the population and they obviously want to promote competitive eve gameplay. It always existed, but for years we had no real platform to train and grow our community, CCP is fixing this. This isn't relevant to you fine, but your way to play eve isn't the only way.
You're like a simplicity bot. Why do you think anyone cares about how you play? Who exactly do you think you are that anyone would care.
You do have a platform, it's called EVE, it's the same platform the rest of us have. What stops "your community" from going to any of the thousands of empty systems and soloing each other to your hearts content? No one needs to alter EVE's flying in space concept to make a tournament.
Hopefully the fine people at CCP (and our CSM reps) will wise up and let this prototype (as it's currently imagined) hit the scrap heap (like most prototypes do) so they can spend time building something fun for people that stays within EVE's established lines.
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2731
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:41:00 -
[655] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: so they can spend time building something fun for people that stays within EVE's established lines.
Oh I'm sorry, Jenn. I didn't realize you were an expert on what constitutes "fun" for everyone, nor was I aware that you were there when Hilmar & Friends created the concept of EVE and what it is or isn't based on.
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:42:00 -
[656] - Quote
Evora Pirkibo wrote:Funny, using the word logical fallacy. You've established a predictable pattern of oversimplifying and/or exaggerating an argument of the opposition, and then comparing it to the sentiment of "agree with me or your dumb" or some variation to similar effect. Funnier still, in almost every post you wrote the words "logical fallacy" you engage in one yourself.
Be that as it may, AT/NEO style structured combat isn't part of the gameplay, it never has been.
And you do not speak for the solo community. As someone who has enjoyed the fruits of solo pvp for a few years I can say from experience you never have to roam 1-4 hours for a fight. Solo pvp has been quite alive.
Edit: By solo, i mean single account pvp
I'm using their own arguments against them, I can't oversimplify their flawed logic.
It's always the same :
- eve will die because of this (people were saying the same when they introduced duels, obviously pvp and eve died)
- open world pvp died in wow, so same will happen to eve (terrible analogy since wow has no incentive to go open-world unlike eve)
- it's "un-eve" because I don't like it (the first AT was in 2005, structured pvp is part of eve)
And now you're saying ridiculous stuff like structured combat isn't part of the gameplay, it's not like this is a sandbox or anything, your way to play isn't the only way to play, people tried to fraps "fair" fights for years, CCP is giving us a proper platform, deal with it.
There is a difference between roaming hours for a fight and roaming hours for a "good" fight, dojos will provide "good" fights, how many times I suicided my ships into targets out of my engagement profile or gangs out of boredom.
This isn't a feature for you fine, too bad your way to play isn't the only way to play, CCP is adding more options so HTFU and adapt like we say in Eve Online. |
Tirke
Iris Covenant The Gorgon Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:45:00 -
[657] - Quote
Dojos 'll kill this sandpit like game. You wouldn't need to undock. Wow arenas, are u seriously? |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:47:00 -
[658] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:You're like a simplicity bot. Why do you think anyone cares about how you play? Who exactly do you think you are that anyone would care.
You do have a platform, it's called EVE, it's the same platform the rest of us have. What stops "your community" from going to any of the thousands of empty systems and soloing each other to your hearts content? No one needs to alter EVE's flying in space concept to make a tournament.
Hopefully the fine people at CCP (and our CSM reps) will wise up and let this prototype (as it's currently imagined) hit the scrap heap (like most prototypes do) so they can spend time building something fun for people that stays within EVE's established lines.
What you don't understand is that people have been soloing and gimping their gameplay for years and it's not viable on the long run, CCP is fixing this just like they will (hopefully) fix POS management, just like they fixed the industry UI.
Consensual pvp existed since 2005 in eve, you must be new or something but consensual pvp isn't a less valid gameplay than hotdropping people or mining, welcome to the sandbox. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:48:00 -
[659] - Quote
Tirke wrote:Dojos 'll kill this sandpit like game. You wouldn't need to undock. Wow arenas, are u seriously?
Just like duels killed pvp and eve. http://i.imgur.com/5v1zptC.jpg
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8358
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:56:00 -
[660] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: so they can spend time building something fun for people that stays within EVE's established lines. Oh I'm sorry, Jenn. I didn't realize you were an expert on what constitutes "fun" for everyone, nor was I aware that you were there when Hilmar & Friends created the concept of EVE and what it is or isn't based on.
Show me where I said, Fun for EVERYONE. I said "fun for people", yet in your zeal to watch CCP violate their own principles you lost the ability to read English.
I'm simply saying (and I'll type slow so yo can understand this time...) that CCP doesn't need to introduce things that go counter to their clearly established game concept to eveole and grow the game. They did that with incarna (seeking to take EVE from "spaceship game" to "more in depth sci-fi simulation") and overall that was a mistake.
For 12 years, EVE Online has had as a FACT the principle that ANY ship in space that was not cloaked and was not a newb piloted ship in a noob system (or in the SOE Arc) could be tracked down and attacked.
These Dojos add a new exception, they say "you can be in space in a special deadspace pocket that no one else can get to and the worst thing you have to worry about is someone shooting your dojo". That's wrong for this game, BASED ON it's 1st 12 years of existence and it's developers constantly saying that you should not be safe unless docked or cloaked.
New exceptions should not be added to a games rules except in special circumstances (like how the "no noobs getting shot in nob systems came about). Exceptions should NEVER come from mere content additions if one wants to maintain the integrity of their own development process.
|
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5201
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 13:59:00 -
[661] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Says the champion in this topic of logical fallacies.
Feel free to highlight my logical fallacies and say why I'm wrong, you know like I just did for him. Unlike you, I don't just post "you're wrong because I don't agree with you", right now you're just circlejerking.
you were saying... =]I[= |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:04:00 -
[662] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: so they can spend time building something fun for people that stays within EVE's established lines. Oh I'm sorry, Jenn. I didn't realize you were an expert on what constitutes "fun" for everyone, nor was I aware that you were there when Hilmar & Friends created the concept of EVE and what it is or isn't based on. Show me where I said, Fun for EVERYONE. I said "fun for people", yet in your zeal to watch CCP violate their own principles you lost the ability to read English. I'm simply saying (and I'll type slow so yo can understand this time...) that CCP doesn't need to introduce things that go counter to their clearly established game concept to eveole and grow the game. They did that with incarna (seeking to take EVE from "spaceship game" to "more in depth sci-fi simulation") and overall that was a mistake. For 12 years, EVE Online has had as a FACT the principle that ANY ship in space that was not cloaked and was not a newb piloted ship in a noob system (or in the SOE Arc) could be tracked down and attacked. These Dojos add a new exception, they say "you can be in space in a special deadspace pocket that no one else can get to and the worst thing you have to worry about is someone shooting your dojo". That's wrong for this game, BASED ON it's 1st 12 years of existence and it's developers constantly saying that you should not be safe unless docked or cloaked. New exceptions should not be added to a games rules except in special circumstances (like how the "no noobs getting shot in nob systems came about). Exceptions should NEVER come from mere content additions if one wants to maintain the integrity of their own development process.
Except you're wrong, CCP provided ways for people to fight with no interruption : AT/NEO tournaments.
Now CCP is giving us tools to host our own tournaments and to pvp in the same conditions.
This won't remove non-consensual pvp since there is an incentive to be subject to non-consensual pvp, mainly :
- getting isk for pve players
- getting fun for corp roams/solo roams against the odds
- defending your territory for null
- attacking people for "tears"
- defending your corp in wardecs
- defending your faction/corp for fw
etc
Dojos won't remove all this, it's an added option that will bring more content to eve. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8359
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:05:00 -
[663] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:You're like a simplicity bot. Why do you think anyone cares about how you play? Who exactly do you think you are that anyone would care.
You do have a platform, it's called EVE, it's the same platform the rest of us have. What stops "your community" from going to any of the thousands of empty systems and soloing each other to your hearts content? No one needs to alter EVE's flying in space concept to make a tournament.
Hopefully the fine people at CCP (and our CSM reps) will wise up and let this prototype (as it's currently imagined) hit the scrap heap (like most prototypes do) so they can spend time building something fun for people that stays within EVE's established lines.
What you don't understand is that people have been soloing and gimping their gameplay for years and it's not viable on the long run, CCP is fixing this just like they will (hopefully) fix POS management, just like they fixed the industry UI. Consensual pvp existed since 2005 in eve, you must be new or something but consensual pvp isn't a less valid gameplay than hotdropping people or mining, welcome to the sandbox.
"consensual pvp" has, since 2005 been CONFINED to Tournaments. The reason for that is because EVE is a non-consensual open worlds pvp game.
You cling to the AT and NEO examples because you know what you want is selfish. I can't comprehend such selfishness, I've never run to CCP and said "hey, I'm a PVE player, you guys need to make me safer so i can PVE". As an EVe players, i accept that even though i like PVE, EVEis such a game that people can disrupt my activities.
So becoming a good PVE player in EVE means knowing HOW to prevent disruption.
main point incoming:
Dojo users should have to do this as well. Their safety should only come from their efforts, not game mechanics.
Maybe CCP makes Dojo Deadspace scannable but gives the users other tools to make being scanned down unlikely (like a more expensive dojo that makes dojo ships even harder to scan down). Or maybe CCP finds a way to let dojo users TRAP people trying to scan them down.
Those things would be in keeping with the player run and "ALWAYS DANGEROUS" nature of EVE's 'flying in space' gameplay. But this thing they have now is an abomination. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:05:00 -
[664] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Says the champion in this topic of logical fallacies.
Feel free to highlight my logical fallacies and say why I'm wrong, you know like I just did for him. Unlike you, I don't just post "you're wrong because I don't agree with you", right now you're just circlejerking. you were saying...
This is relevant factual data of what happened last time CCP introduced a feature some people (the same kind of people complaining about dojos) judged "un-eve". |
Noriko Mai
1531
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:06:00 -
[665] - Quote
Oh. I totaly missed the point where this thread becomes a this little kids game. I'm right... No you aren't... yes.. no.. yes.. no.. yes.. no... yes.. no..
The only realy FACT here is that this thread goes donwhill.
-Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
Josef Djugashvilis
2538
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:09:00 -
[666] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sea ChangeI'm not a fan of the readily available arena pvp thing but I could live with it. But yea, to me the main problem is the deadspace thing, NOTHING in space except a noob in a noob system should be "un-screw-with-able" and i say this as someone not inclined to 'screw with' anyone. What EVE is matters. They get rid of the unscannable pocket in space thing and (while i don't like the idea of arenas ,EVE's Arena is called EVE Online) I'm more or less cool with it. Even if that pocket was 'damn near' impossible to scan down with the best skills and gear, that would be in keeping with the 12 year tradition of this game. I think you don't understand that the point of having dojos is to provide fair and controlled fights, fair and controlled fights existed in eve for a long time (the first AT was in 2005) just because CCP only used funny stories about betrayal, awox, theft and big 10% tidi battles to market eve till now doesn't mean it's not a valid part of the gameplay. I mean, CCP is working hard to provide a good and professional AT stream, you don't like it fine it's a sandbox you can go do something else. Look at the eve numbers after big battles : http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility now look what happens months after that.. We are literally back to 2008 tier of average people online, CCP listened to people like you for years I hope they are tired of listening to people with metagame agendas.
...fair and controlled fights...in Eve Online?
Then you are doing it wrong dear chap. This is not a signature. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:09:00 -
[667] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:"consensual pvp" has, since 2005 been CONFINED to Tournaments. The reason for that is because EVE is a non-consensual open worlds pvp game.
You cling to the AT and NEO examples because you know what you want is selfish. I can't comprehend such selfishness, I've never run to CCP and said "hey, I'm a PVE player, you guys need to make me safer so i can PVE". As an EVe players, i accept that even though i like PVE, EVEis such a game that people can disrupt my activities.
So becoming a good PVE player in EVE means knowing HOW to prevent disruption.
main point incoming:
Dojo users should have to do this as well. Their safety should only come from their efforts, not game mechanics.
Maybe CCP makes Dojo Deadspace scannable but gives the users other tools to make being scanned down unlikely (like a more expensive dojo that makes dojo ships even harder to scan down). Or maybe CCP finds a way to let dojo users TRAP people trying to scan them down.
Those things would be in keeping with the player run and "ALWAYS DANGEROUS" nature of EVE's 'flying in space' gameplay. But this thing they have now is an abomination.
I wouldn't care about disruption, we have duels for 1v1s that can be disrupted (they had to add duels because of the crimewatch changes), we have no option to play in the same AT/NEO setup, CCP is fixing this need.
The always dangerous nature of eve come with rewards, we have no in game rewards for dojos.
Risk vs reward, no risk, no rewards just pew pew. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:11:00 -
[668] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote: ...fair and controlled fights...in Eve Online?
Then you are doing it wrong dear chap.
Fair and controlled fights exist in eve online since 2005, you must be new friend.
Or you missed the AT/NEO streams/news I guess. |
Josef Djugashvilis
2538
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:15:00 -
[669] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote: ...fair and controlled fights...in Eve Online?
Then you are doing it wrong dear chap.
Fair and controlled fights exist in eve online since 2005, you must be new friend. Or you missed the AT/NEO streams/news I guess.
New since early 2007.
It the AT is to be the bench mark, then expand the AT to let folk have 'one versus one' fights during the tournament. This is not a signature. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:18:00 -
[670] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
New since early 2007.
It the AT is to be the bench mark, then expand the AT to let folk have 'one versus one' fights during the tournament.
That's what CCP is doing, giving us players the tools because you know Eve Online is a sandbox.
|
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5204
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:19:00 -
[671] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:
This is relevant factual data of what happened last time CCP introduced a feature some people (the same kind of people complaining about dojos) judged "un-eve".
and that feature is not the same as the one in question, making your comparison about as relevant as my left testicle =]I[= |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:23:00 -
[672] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
This is relevant factual data of what happened last time CCP introduced a feature some people (the same kind of people complaining about dojos) judged "un-eve".
and that feature is not the same as the one in question, making your comparison about as relevant as my left testicle
This is your (wrong) opinion and not factual data, you can lookup the thread about duels and notice the exact same posting patterns "this will kill pvp/eve", "eve is wow now", "I don't like consensual pvp", etc.
Of course the feature can't be the same, but again like I said the topic is the same and it was judged "un-eve" by the same kind of people.
Please try to focus.
|
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
381
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:25:00 -
[673] - Quote
Hold on, hold on.
There is going to be a structure in wide open space which is full of ships which are not protected by a timer of any shape or form?
If yes, then restrict them to player corps like the good CCP you are. If no, then don't implement the thing at all. |
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
99
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:28:00 -
[674] - Quote
Why are you argueing with a troll who hides behind an npc alt?
He just wants you to fill the pages anyway.
Now I have to look through this mess....... The most sexy piece of clothing New Eden saw to date! The 'Open Avenue' short dress! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Join my mailing list, "wemew", for fast and easy future updates! (without the ") |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:32:00 -
[675] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:Hold on, hold on.
There is going to be a structure in wide open space which is full of ships which are not protected by a timer of any shape or form?
If yes, then restrict them to player corps like the good CCP you are. If no, then don't implement the thing at all.
I agree that we need a player corp restriction, it would be really stupid to be able to deploy one in a npc corp.
Unless you can shoot it and go suspect instead of having concord rek you.
Priscilla Project wrote:Why are you argueing with a troll who hides behind an npc alt?
He just wants you to fill the pages anyway.
Now I have to look through this mess.......
Please stick to arguments and factual data. |
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
99
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:33:00 -
[676] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Please stick to arguments and factual data. Oh Hi Veers... was wondering where you were.
I know. Coincidences. Roughly the same facial structure and the same hairdo.
And the same stupid textline.
Gotta check the speed of your replies.
Anyhow... reading. The most sexy piece of clothing New Eden saw to date! The 'Open Avenue' short dress! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Join my mailing list, "wemew", for fast and easy future updates! (without the ") |
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2352
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:35:00 -
[677] - Quote
To use a frequently posted phrase: 'Well, this escalated quickly!'
In other words, I would like to remind everybody to keep it on topic and please, above all, civil! ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5206
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:50:00 -
[678] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Feel free to highlight my logical fallacies and say why I'm wrong, you know like I just did for him. vv so because people were wrong before, they are wrong now? really?
Bamboozlement wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
This is relevant factual data of what happened last time CCP introduced a feature some people (the same kind of people complaining about dojos) judged "un-eve".
and that feature is not the same as the one in question, making your comparison about as relevant as my left testicle This is your (wrong) opinion and not factual data, you can lookup the thread about duels and notice the exact same posting patterns "this will kill pvp/eve", "eve is wow now", "I don't like consensual pvp", etc.Of course the feature can't be the same, but again like I said the topic is the same and it was judged "un-eve" by the same kind of people. Please try to focus. read my posts , at no point have i stated anything other than unease at the notion of this being implemented as is outside of a tourney.
you could a least be aware of my opinion before declaring it invalid. =]I[= |
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
103
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:53:00 -
[679] - Quote
Haven't you learned from the other thread, Ralph?
Still reading...... The most sexy piece of clothing New Eden saw to date! The 'Open Avenue' short dress! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Join my mailing list, "wemew", for fast and easy future updates! (without the ") |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5206
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:53:00 -
[680] - Quote
Priscilla Project wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:Please stick to arguments and factual data. Oh Hi Veers... was wondering where you were. I know. Coincidences. Roughly the same facial structure and the same hairdo. And the same stupid textline. Gotta check the speed of your replies. Anyhow... reading. oh nice catch, missed that. in that case im out
o7 =]I[= |
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 15:00:00 -
[681] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:vv so because people were wrong before, they are wrong now? really?
No, I just showed that the "doom and gloom" comments are not to be taken seriously when CCP implement something they dislike, is it okay for people to wrongfully say "eve will die if you do something I don't like"?
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: read my posts , at no point have i stated anything other than unease at the notion of this being implemented as is outside of a tourney.
you could a least be aware of my opinion before declaring it invalid.
Sure I also agree that this need work and testing, but a lot of people are saying "consensual pvp shouldn't be part of eve", which is not only false since it existed in eve since 2005 but also ridiculous because eve is a sandbox.
I don't think your gameplay (whatever you do) is a lesser gameplay than mine, I won't tell you to do the same thing as me and like the same stuff.
|
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1527
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 15:18:00 -
[682] - Quote
Marian Devers wrote:So... which CSM members ok-ed this? Speak up, no need to be afraid...
me
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
105
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 15:18:00 -
[683] - Quote
SoundWave would have never approved of this .....
Gotta say that ships that do not need to warp to spots in space... ... makes no sense so probs will not stay that way anyway.
And instances ... hm. Bad.
And then there's this deep change in the global meta .........
Still reading.......... The most sexy piece of clothing New Eden saw to date! The 'Open Avenue' short dress! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Join my mailing list, "wemew", for fast and easy future updates! (without the ") |
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
105
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 15:45:00 -
[684] - Quote
Okay... so the deployable is destroyable ... ... haven't yet found out *when* that is actually possible.
The issue here is that, with players hunting specifically for them ... ... which WILL happen, because it asks for being primary all day ... ... every day ... everywhere ...
... well, the issue with this is all the people who will join EVE for quick fixes ... ... will cry out loud because of their stuff being destroyed all day ...
Just writing this possibility down.
Still reading and processing the influence on the meta ... Sheesh, this is huge.........
There is a huge issue with all these deeper meta changes that gives me the feeling that CCP is worried about sub numbers, because of changes in the meta of modern society. Interesting .....
Reading......... The most sexy piece of clothing New Eden saw to date! The 'Open Avenue' short dress! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Join my mailing list, "wemew", for fast and easy future updates! (without the ") |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 15:46:00 -
[685] - Quote
Sturm Gewehr wrote:I don't think people realize that the tools for arena/tournament style pvp are just not in the game unless CCP is directly organizing and running it. You cannot regulate fits, implants, boundary violations, countdowns to prevent early locking, time limits, tidi, spectator cameras that don't interfere with or can be interfered with, pod immunity, etc. If eve was "real" it would be trivial for organizations to run tournaments with these restrictions in place. You can make all the rules in the world but you have no seamless way to enforce them without the tools something like the dojo would introduce. There are mechanics for sov, facwar, dueling, pos bashes, wormholes etc. in the game but there is nothing for tournaments without CCP interaction.
There is a playerbase that highly values tournament/arena style pvp. Unfortunately this only exists on the live server twice a year in NEO and AT. Many players only pvp during these time periods because EVE otherwise does not support their style of play.
To everyone complaining about how this shouldn't be implemented because of potential XYZ exploit, this is a prototype on a test server. If we are already recognizing it now you can be sure CCP will fix it before it does go live IF it goes live. If they don't all the proponents of it will be slamming CCP for not doing something about it when it was a known issue day 1 along with the rest of you. I don't think CCP wants another monoclegate.
Giving players the tools to run their own tournaments (assuming dojos evolve to support this) is a huge boon to the small competitive pvp community and will drastically improve the quality and skill level of participants in the AT and NEO because teams will be more practiced and CCP will have more opportunities to evaluate their rules and craft a more competitive meta.
And if you don't like dojos robbing you of your content then go blow them up! It is interesting how many players here who are complaining about losing out on content belong to organizations that deliberately deny content with blue lists/NAPs/not engaging without massive superiority and also use content denial as a form of warfare.
For everyone complaining about eve becoming safe just remember that losses do occur and the are REAL, AT runs can cost into the hundreds of billions. The ships are REAL, the ammo is REAL, when they blow up there is a REAL wreck just like anywhere else. Just because arena style combat is introduced does not mean CCP or the players are just going to pack up sov, NPC 0.0, FW, dueling, wardecs, suicide ganking, wormholes, etc. and just focus on dojos.
Also keep in mind if this becomes a well implemented function within the game it could draw more subscribers. Not everyone who starts playing eve because they heard about a giant sov fight actually goes into sov warfare. Not everyone who does dojos will do dojos 100% of the time.
Finally a post from someone relevant to the topic, I agree with everything said here there is no valid and logical argument against the dojos implementation.
This is really important, and while it's obvious that people shouldn't be able to screw with people fighting inside the dojo we should be able to interact with the dojo itself since it's a deployable and with the people deploying it.
|
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
105
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 15:53:00 -
[686] - Quote
*points at Veers*
Still processing the changes ............. The most sexy piece of clothing New Eden saw to date! The 'Open Avenue' short dress! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Join my mailing list, "wemew", for fast and easy future updates! (without the ") |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1882
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:03:00 -
[687] - Quote
the interface looks dull as you use the standard and dated windows but the concept is sound. +1 |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:11:00 -
[688] - Quote
Priscilla Project wrote:*points at Veers*
Still processing the changes .............
All I will say is that you're not as smart as you think , please stay on topic.
PS : We are all waiting for your conclusions, "Priscilla Project" is my reference for anything solo pvp and competitive eve. /s
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3890
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:16:00 -
[689] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Marian Devers wrote:So... which CSM members ok-ed this? Speak up, no need to be afraid... me m
Most of us, actually.
OKed in the form of "Here's a prototype for players to look at, to gauge the overall reaction"
As you can see from the wide variety of responses to this thread, it's far from monolithic, one way or another. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2731
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:18:00 -
[690] - Quote
A lot of people want to PvP - specifically they want to 1v1 - but don't bother to try because it's a sea of neutral logi and offgrid boosts and anything except actual 1v1.
A lot of people will say "then bring your own neutral logi and your own offgrid boosts" but that's a lame cop-out answer and doesn't make for 1v1. 1v1 shouldn't require multiboxing or friends. It's 1v1. |
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:21:00 -
[691] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:A lot of people want to PvP - specifically they want to 1v1 - but don't bother to try because it's a sea of neutral logi and offgrid boosts and anything except actual 1v1.
A lot of people will say "then bring your own neutral logi and your own offgrid boosts" but that's a lame cop-out answer and doesn't make for 1v1. 1v1 shouldn't require multiboxing or friends. It's 1v1.
Some people genuinely think that eve should only be played one way, surprisingly the way they play is the only way. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5209
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:23:00 -
[692] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:A lot of people want to PvP - specifically they want to 1v1 - but don't bother to try because it's a sea of neutral logi and offgrid boosts and anything except actual 1v1.
A lot of people will say "then bring your own neutral logi and your own offgrid boosts" but that's a lame cop-out answer and doesn't make for 1v1. 1v1 shouldn't require multiboxing or friends. It's 1v1. Some people genuinely think that eve should only be played one way, surprisingly the way they play is the only way. and your putting words in our mouths again. =]I[= |
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:29:00 -
[693] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote: Most of us, actually.
OKed in the form of "Here's a prototype for players to look at, to gauge the overall reaction"
As you can see from the wide variety of responses to this thread, it's far from monolithic, one way or another.
Two carebears. This is hilarous =)
We definitely need a way to boot people from the CSM at any time, depending on their support of proposed features. This is one such case, where two CSM members have shown to have no understanding of EVE mechanics, purpose, and attraction. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9904
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:39:00 -
[694] - Quote
Well, first of all, if you can still use an off grid booster then the point of this... thing... is entirely lost.
And if they have finally figured a way to make sure you can't, then why not just force boosts to be on grid in the first place across the board, and fix this so long broken aspect of the game?
Second, I fail to see what this is actually supposed to do, besides putting up "you can't touch me" walls fraught with potential explotative abuse, some of which has already been detailed in this thread. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1527
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:41:00 -
[695] - Quote
Marian Devers wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote: Most of us, actually.
OKed in the form of "Here's a prototype for players to look at, to gauge the overall reaction"
As you can see from the wide variety of responses to this thread, it's far from monolithic, one way or another.
Two carebears. This is hilarous =) We definitely need a way to boot people from the CSM at any time, depending on their support of proposed features. This is one such case, where two CSM members have shown to have no understanding of EVE mechanics, purpose, and attraction.
Actually we answered because we happened across the question. Out of curiosity WHICH of the CSM would you consider YOUR representative and how would you react if they also supported it?
Also you did not read Steves comment carefully.
OKed in the form of "Here's a prototype for players to look at, to gauge the overall reaction"
A prototype is not something shipping in the next release, it is just a test for concept.
Oh and as for 'boot from CSM' that mechanism exists. It is called an election. Next one is coming up in the New Year . . . remember to vote.
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
172
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:44:00 -
[696] - Quote
Marian Devers wrote: We definitely need a way to boot people from the CSM at any time, depending on their support of proposed features. This is one such case, where two CSM members have shown to have no understanding of EVE mechanics, purpose, and attraction.
Can we also boot players from the forums for clearly not paying any attention to the responses from other CSMs earlier in the thread before making sweeping judgments and generalizations? |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:46:00 -
[697] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Well, first of all, if you can still use an off grid booster then the point of this... thing... is entirely lost.
And if they have finally figured a way to make sure you can't, then why not just force boosts to be on grid in the first place across the board, and fix this so long broken aspect of the game?
Second, I fail to see what this is actually supposed to do, besides putting up "you can't touch me" walls fraught with potential explotative abuse, some of which has already been detailed in this thread.
Yes they are just making dojos to put invisible walls, it's not like there is a need for tournament training tools, or that people solo pvping are asking for something like this for years, or that people are getting bored of having to roam for hours to find decent fights, it's just to annoy you with "you can't touch me" walls. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5210
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:48:00 -
[698] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Well, first of all, if you can still use an off grid booster then the point of this... thing... is entirely lost.
And if they have finally figured a way to make sure you can't, then why not just force boosts to be on grid in the first place across the board, and fix this so long broken aspect of the game?
Second, I fail to see what this is actually supposed to do, besides putting up "you can't touch me" walls fraught with potential explotative abuse, some of which has already been detailed in this thread. its a conceptual stage tool set for running tourney matches currently on duality, the bears seem to think this means we will get arena style pvp and seem ecstatic, everyone els is a little nervous about its implementation(and rightly so) as if its introduced badly i.e. outside of a tourney setting , it could have pretty "strong" effects on the game,
howeve theres thread has the smack of CCP troll threadnought about it so if thats the case gf ,10/10 and all that, but its concerning that the csm have not told us outright one way or another is this will be for general consumption or reserved for a specific use, as mentioned tourneys =]I[= |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5210
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:51:00 -
[699] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Marian Devers wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote: Most of us, actually.
OKed in the form of "Here's a prototype for players to look at, to gauge the overall reaction"
As you can see from the wide variety of responses to this thread, it's far from monolithic, one way or another.
Two carebears. This is hilarous =) We definitely need a way to boot people from the CSM at any time, depending on their support of proposed features. This is one such case, where two CSM members have shown to have no understanding of EVE mechanics, purpose, and attraction. Actually we answered because we happened across the question. Out of curiosity WHICH of the CSM would you consider YOUR representative and how would you react if they also supported it? Also you did not read Steves comment carefully. OKed in the form of "Here's a prototype for players to look at, to gauge the overall reaction"A prototype is not something shipping in the next release, it is just a test for concept. Oh and as for 'boot from CSM' that mechanism exists. It is called an election. Next one is coming up in the New Year . . . remember to vote. m actually, to be fair, cheers for telling us about this now rather than later =]I[= |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:54:00 -
[700] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:its a conceptual stage tool set for running tourney matches currently on duality, the bears seem to think this means we will get arena style pvp and seem ecstatic, everyone els is a little nervous about its implementation(and rightly so) as if its introduced badly i.e. outside of a tourney setting , it could have pretty "strong" effects on the game,
That's some nice narrative spin you got there, you could get a job at foxnews or TMC if you present this post.
First of all you said the bears are happy about this? What bears? A lot of people that posted for this change are known solo pvpers and/or AT/NEO tournament participants.
People against this are either nullsec f1 monkeys or random carebear alts.
Stick to factual data and stop lying online, it's not healthy. |
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8364
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:57:00 -
[701] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:A lot of people want to PvP - specifically they want to 1v1 - but don't bother to try because it's a sea of neutral logi and offgrid boosts and anything except actual 1v1.
A lot of people will say "then bring your own neutral logi and your own offgrid boosts" but that's a lame cop-out answer and doesn't make for 1v1. 1v1 shouldn't require multiboxing or friends. It's 1v1.
Some of those same people think you should be able to mine or do PVE sites without 'interference". I don't , because as a pve player (that doesn't suck) i accept that EVE is the sort of game where you don't get hand held like that. If I want pve riches I have to deal with the possibility (and in many cases reality) of human interference.
PVPrs shouldn't be hand held either. It doesn't matter that they 'just want 1v1 without interference'. That's what makes EVE great, the GAME doesn't do things for you (it doesn't even protect you, CONCORD kills your aggressor in high sec, it' doesn't REP you back to full hull and armor and send you on your way with a lolipop) the game says "if you want this, do it for yourself".
That's why these dojo things break a principle that shouldn't be screwed with.
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5211
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:57:00 -
[702] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:its a conceptual stage tool set for running tourney matches currently on duality, the bears seem to think this means we will get arena style pvp and seem ecstatic, everyone els is a little nervous about its implementation(and rightly so) as if its introduced badly i.e. outside of a tourney setting , it could have pretty "strong" effects on the game,
That's some nice narrative spin you got there, you could get a job at foxnews or TMC if you show them this post. First of all you said the bears are happy about this? What bears? A lot of people that posted for this change are known solo pvpers and/or AT/NEO tournament participants. People against this are either nullsec f1 monkeys or random carebear alts. Stick to factual data and stop lying online, it's not healthy. then stop reading my opinion as fact, i assume you are adult enough to recognise an opinion when you see one =]I[= |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8364
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:01:00 -
[703] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:
A prototype is not something shipping in the next release, it is just a test for concept.
A concept that as a CSM (ie those we elected to encourage CCP to stay true to the Idea called "EVE Online" because of a history of CCP swirving a little bit) you probably should have voiced concerns about. That you haven't and think that unprobable ships in space on tranquility (the current iteration of the prototype and it's concept) is a good idea is what's concerning.
Quote: Oh and as for 'boot from CSM' that mechanism exists. It is called an election. Next one is coming up in the New Year . . . remember to vote.
m
You can count on it.
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3890
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:02:00 -
[704] - Quote
Marian Devers wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote: Most of us, actually.
OKed in the form of "Here's a prototype for players to look at, to gauge the overall reaction"
As you can see from the wide variety of responses to this thread, it's far from monolithic, one way or another.
Two carebears. This is hilarous =) We definitely need a way to boot people from the CSM at any time, depending on their support of proposed features. This is one such case, where two CSM members have shown to have no understanding of EVE mechanics, purpose, and attraction.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=search&topic=prototype%3a+dojos&forumID=270&csmbadge=1
(you may need to copy and paste the url) Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
208
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:03:00 -
[705] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: so they can spend time building something fun for people that stays within EVE's established lines. Oh I'm sorry, Jenn. I didn't realize you were an expert on what constitutes "fun" for everyone, nor was I aware that you were there when Hilmar & Friends created the concept of EVE and what it is or isn't based on. Show me where I said, Fun for EVERYONE. I said "fun for people", yet in your zeal to watch CCP violate their own principles you lost the ability to read English. I'm simply saying (and I'll type slow so yo can understand this time...) that CCP doesn't need to introduce things that go counter to their clearly established game concept to eveole and grow the game. They did that with incarna (seeking to take EVE from "spaceship game" to "more in depth sci-fi simulation") and overall that was a mistake. For 12 years, EVE Online has had as a FACT the principle that ANY ship in space that was not cloaked and was not a newb piloted ship in a noob system (or in the SOE Arc) could be tracked down and attacked. These Dojos add a new exception, they say "you can be in space in a special deadspace pocket that no one else can get to and the worst thing you have to worry about is someone shooting your dojo". That's wrong for this game, BASED ON it's 1st 12 years of existence and it's developers constantly saying that you should not be safe unless docked or cloaked. New exceptions should not be added to a games rules except in special circumstances (like how the "no noobs getting shot in nob systems came about). Exceptions should NEVER come from mere content additions if one wants to maintain the integrity of their own development process.
FFS, get that stick out of your ass. It's for a finite time that changes locations at all times. 5mins, maybe 10 tops, and you're getting your panties all in a bunch. Really, you feel it's necessary to ruin someone's 5-10mins of organized gameplay...selfish prick is what you are when you can't accept that some people would okie to play a different way --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:07:00 -
[706] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Also you did not read Steves comment carefully.
OKed in the form of "Here's a prototype for players to look at, to gauge the overall reaction"
I read it perfectly fine, hence my reply
Marian Devers wrote: We definitely need a way to boot people from the CSM at any time, depending on their support of proposed features. This is one such case, where two CSM members have shown to have no understanding of EVE mechanics, purpose, and attraction.
If you cannot judge the merit of certain feature without forum (player) input, then you're useless, and so is the CSM.
Or did you forget what the CSM is for?
Hint: it's not to damage control CCP on the forums mumbling "we'll, maybe they won't implement it".
Next stop: The CSM and CCP will "gauge the overall reaction" regarding plex-ammo! It's awesome, you load your launcher with PLEX, and one-shot any ship in game.
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:08:00 -
[707] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
A concept that as a CSM (ie those we elected to encourage CCP to stay true to the Idea called "EVE Online" because of a history of CCP swirving a little bit) you probably should have voiced concerns about. That you haven't and think that unprobable ships in space on tranquility (the current iteration of the prototype and it's concept that this thread suggest could become a reality on tranq) is a good idea is what's concerning.
You are way too self-entitled, just because CSM members were elected by us doesn't mean they have to agree with you.
I showed you over and over that consensual pvp exist in eve since 2005, yet you still think consensual pvp is alien to eve at this point you are just trolling. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2733
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:09:00 -
[708] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:A lot of people want to PvP - specifically they want to 1v1 - but don't bother to try because it's a sea of neutral logi and offgrid boosts and anything except actual 1v1.
A lot of people will say "then bring your own neutral logi and your own offgrid boosts" but that's a lame cop-out answer and doesn't make for 1v1. 1v1 shouldn't require multiboxing or friends. It's 1v1. Some of those same people think you should be able to mine or do PVE sites without 'interference". I don't , because as a pve player (that doesn't suck) i accept that EVE is the sort of game where you don't get hand held like that. If I want pve riches I have to deal with the possibility (and in many cases reality) of human interference. PVPrs shouldn't be hand held either. It doesn't matter that they 'just want 1v1 without interference'. That's what makes EVE great, the GAME doesn't do things for you (it doesn't even protect you, CONCORD kills your aggressor in high sec, it' doesn't REP you back to full hull and armor and send you on your way with a lolipop) the game says "if you want this, do it for yourself". That's why these dojo things break a principle that shouldn't be screwed with.
When the core principles of EVE are resulting in people logging off and playing other games, roaming for three hours and finding no fights or not even undocking because everyone else's ability to interfere completely kills your own ability to do what you want in the game in the first place, perhaps it's time to revisit those core principles.
I too agree that the ability to ruin another's day is the foundation upon which EVE was built, but there's a line between "what makes EVE great" and "what makes EVE frustrating and unfun". For those who are into 1v1, the omnipresence of neutral logi and offgrid boosts make EVE frustrating and unfun. Why should it take a fleet to accomplish what should only require two ships to achieve? Why is it so terrible that someone somewhere might actually be able to get the enjoyment they're paying CCP for?
People just want to have fun. The trolls and asshats get to run rampant over 95% of space, and that's fine. To say "**** you" to the 5% who want to set up something fun with their friends? No, that's not fine.
Jenn, please unsub. You're part of the change-averse cancer that is suffocating and killing EVE. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:12:00 -
[709] - Quote
Marian Devers wrote: If you cannot judge the merit of certain feature without forum (player) input, then you're useless, and so is the CSM.
Or did you forget what the CSM is for?
Hint: it's not to damage control CCP on the forums mumbling "we'll, maybe they won't implement it".
Next stop: The CSM and CCP will "gauge the overall reaction" regarding plex-ammo! It's awesome, you load your launcher with PLEX, and one-shot any ship in game.
Nice logical fallacy : https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
Not only that but there is a huge difference between pay2win features and dojos, only nullsec grunts like you think dojos are a bad idea (boo wooo I can't blob AT teams).
HTFU and adapt like we say in eve online. |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
291
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:13:00 -
[710] - Quote
Marian Devers wrote: If you cannot judge the merit of certain feature without forum (player) input, then you're useless, and so is the CSM.
What if a lot of players DO see merit in that feature. |
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8365
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:16:00 -
[711] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:
FFS, get that stick out of your ass. It's for a finite time that changes locations at all times. 5mins, maybe 10 tops, and you're getting your panties all in a bunch. Really, you feel it's necessary to ruin someone's 5-10mins of organized gameplay...selfish prick is what you are when you can't accept that some people would okie to play a different way
1st of all, my back side itches and needs a slight bit of kissing to solve that problem
2ndly. I'm not a ganker. I wouldn't try to scan down folks to kill if i could, unless their name as "Dread Guristas".
We are talking about the SPIRIT , the concept, the purpose of this game and it's rule set, not some selfish need to screw with frig duels. Some of us CARE about what EVE Online ( is and want it to be something that is consistent and of high quality.
|
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:20:00 -
[712] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Some of us CARE about what EVE Online ( is and want it to be something that is consistent and of high quality.
Wait, let me guess. Your definition of "high quality" just happens to align perfectly with your personal play style, right?
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
174
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:20:00 -
[713] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: You can count on it.
Did you vote for him this time? If not, why should you not voting for him next time, either, have any dire portent attached to it?
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2733
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:23:00 -
[714] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Yun Kuai wrote:
FFS, get that stick out of your ass. It's for a finite time that changes locations at all times. 5mins, maybe 10 tops, and you're getting your panties all in a bunch. Really, you feel it's necessary to ruin someone's 5-10mins of organized gameplay...selfish prick is what you are when you can't accept that some people would okie to play a different way
1st of all, my back side itches and needs a slight bit of kissing to solve that problem 2ndly. I'm not a ganker. I wouldn't try to scan down folks to kill if i could, unless their name as "Dread Guristas". We are talking about the SPIRIT , the concept, the purpose of this game and it's rule set, not some selfish need to screw with frig duels. Some of us CARE about what EVE Online ( is and want it to be something that is consistent and of high quality.
Who are you, that eschews PvP utterly and refuses to engage in it, to comment on the "spirit" and "purpose" of EVE Online? |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9904
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:23:00 -
[715] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: Yes they are just making dojos to put invisible walls, it's not like there is a need for tournament training tools
There isn't, the test server has worked fine for that for a while now.
Quote: or that people solo pvping are asking for something like this for years
Heh, no, not true. Pretty sure very few people have asked to have their sandbox broken with instanced, WoW style PvP matches. People want more solo fights, yes. As in out in the actual game, without things like off grid boosts ruining it before it begins.
Quote: or that people are getting bored of having to roam for hours to find decent fights
Buff lowsec, obviously. And nerf highsec, the population distribution is at fault here, and highsec being skewed in risk/reward is the cause of that.
Quote: it's just to annoy you with "you can't touch me" walls.
Such a thing is blatantly against anything that even is going to pretend to be a sandbox game, after all. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9905
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:27:00 -
[716] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:For those who are into 1v1, the omnipresence of neutral logi and offgrid boosts make EVE frustrating and unfun.
And the solution is not "break the sandbox", it's having the spine to actually take a look at broken mechanics. Off grid boosts needed to die in a fire five years ago, and making some cute new deployable like this not only fails to solve that problem, it screws with a bunch of other things into the bargain.
If you want to be "safe" from other people, be docked. There should be no exceptions. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
106
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:29:00 -
[717] - Quote
Veers... the TL.DR alone goes beyond one post and actually addresses not the dojos, but the whole direction of the game. I overshot a little. XD
Anyhow, it is most likely that Dojos will hit TQ simply because it makes sense from a profit standpoint. In the end, CCP only needs to wait for the current generation of people to be old enough to play and the hardcore gamers to die off and be replaced.
It's inevitable.
Wondering if I should put the huge TL.DR up to GD.
But what's the point anyway... The most sexy piece of clothing New Eden saw to date! The 'Open Avenue' short dress! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Join my mailing list, "wemew", for fast and easy future updates! (without the ") |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8368
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:30:00 -
[718] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
When the core principles of EVE are resulting in people logging off and playing other games, roaming for three hours and finding no fights or not even undocking because everyone else's ability to interfere completely kills your own ability to do what you want in the game in the first place, perhaps it's time to revisit those core principles.
EVE is no where near the stage of revisiting what's kept it alive for all this time. Personally I'd rather see EVe die an honorable space-death than morph into something 'the masses' would like. I (like many players) started when EVE was much harsher and that was only 7 years ago. Yet the current EVE has much lower barriers and STILL isn't super 'popular'.
CCP can make an excellent niche game or a mediocre and soon to die mass appeal game, and i hope they stick with what works.
Quote: I too agree that the ability to ruin another's day is the foundation upon which EVE was built, but there's a line between "what makes EVE great" and "what makes EVE frustrating and unfun". For those who are into 1v1, the omnipresence of neutral logi and offgrid boosts make EVE frustrating and unfun. Why should it take a fleet to accomplish what should only require two ships to achieve? Why is it so terrible that someone somewhere might actually be able to get the enjoyment they're paying CCP for?
EVE is the game that says "if you don't like it, DO something about it, outthink the enemy you can't outfight". Dojos say "screw it, don't worry, just screw around a bit". If implemented on TQ it would be CCP surrendering to the instant gratification masses.
C'mon CCP, don't be France.....
Quote: People just want to have fun. The trolls and asshats get to run rampant over 95% of space, and that's fine. To say "**** you" to the 5% who want to set up something fun with their friends? No, that's not fine.
A challenge, and earning victory and rewards is 'fun' for real EVE players. That 5% can already find a wormhole and invade 1 of THOUSANDS of currently empty systems to 1v1 all day in.
Quote: Jenn, please unsub. You're part of the change-averse cancer that is suffocating and killing EVE.
With this level of maturity, it's no wonder you support anti-EVE instant gratification game mechanics.
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:30:00 -
[719] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
There isn't, the test server has worked fine for that for a while now.
Yep totally true, using the same logic we don't need to fix POS management and the industry UI change were stupid. /s
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Heh, no, not true. Pretty sure very few people have asked to have their sandbox broken with instanced, WoW style PvP matches. People want more solo fights, yes. As in out in the actual game, without things like off grid boosts ruining it before it begins.
Heh no, not true except all the solo pvpers that posted in this thread, you know you should join bringing solo back channel and see what people think about solo pvping against people with links/friends/gatecamps/blobs.
Spouting your opinion against factual data is embarrassing, please research your subject before posting.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Buff lowsec, obviously. And nerf highsec, the population distribution is at fault here, and highsec being skewed in risk/reward is the cause of that.
You don't understand how buffing lowsec is irrelevant when the game mechanics are making solo pvp tedious, at this point it's pretty obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about, are you asking CCP to remove gatecamps/links/cynos/blobs somehow? Please, this isn't about isk/hour or the appeal of lowsec but broken game mechanics for solo pvp.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Such a thing is blatantly against anything that even is going to pretend to be a sandbox game, after all.
Just like missions, just like indestructible assets in stations (hi nullsec), just like alts to metagame the pvp, just like stations, etc etc
Eve is a sanbox only when we are playing your way.
Please try to focus.
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2734
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:34:00 -
[720] - Quote
I'm almost completely sure that CCP can't financially afford for their sole product to die simply because a few bittervets are offended.
Just saying. |
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
174
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:34:00 -
[721] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: If you want to be "safe" from other people, be docked. There should be no exceptions.
Because God knows, when I'm cloaked up, I'm totally not 100% safe while I...
...watch your staging system movements to report intel... ...angle in behind you in the ice belt as a warp-in for a gank fleet... ...creep around nice and safe in the w-space system I scanned out 3 hours earlier to get into position for my buddies to warp in with their brawler Proteii and shred your triaged carrier in the anom you're clearing...
... and a host of other thing. Totally not safe at all.
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5213
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:34:00 -
[722] - Quote
the thread is now actually comprised more of him being obtuse and belligerent than anything ele http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/375485-1 =]I[= |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8368
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:34:00 -
[723] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Yun Kuai wrote:
FFS, get that stick out of your ass. It's for a finite time that changes locations at all times. 5mins, maybe 10 tops, and you're getting your panties all in a bunch. Really, you feel it's necessary to ruin someone's 5-10mins of organized gameplay...selfish prick is what you are when you can't accept that some people would okie to play a different way
1st of all, my back side itches and needs a slight bit of kissing to solve that problem 2ndly. I'm not a ganker. I wouldn't try to scan down folks to kill if i could, unless their name as "Dread Guristas". We are talking about the SPIRIT , the concept, the purpose of this game and it's rule set, not some selfish need to screw with frig duels. Some of us CARE about what EVE Online ( is and want it to be something that is consistent and of high quality. Who are you, that eschews PvP utterly and refuses to engage in it, to comment on the "spirit" and "purpose" of EVE Online?
I don't eschew PVP at all. When I keep someone from killing my in a low sec plex, I'm pvping, when I sell my loto I'm pvping. When i'm on my alt (in a null alliance) in a fleet fight , I'm pvping.
But at heart, I am a PVE player, yet one who UNDERSTANDS the game I'm in is a non-consensual open world pvp game. So i don't complain when people try to pew pew me, I WIN (by not exploding).
That's what EVE is, thinking and DOING , not expecting the game to 'do' it for you.
You want honorable 1v1. make a friend, go to some backwater system, and 1v1. But be prepared to be disrupted if you do, because in EVE sandbox does't mean you can do what you want, it means EVERYONE can do what they want.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8368
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:36:00 -
[724] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: If you want to be "safe" from other people, be docked. There should be no exceptions.
Because God knows, when I'm cloaked up, I'm totally not 100% safe while I... ...watch your staging system movements to report intel... ...angle in behind you in the ice belt as a warp-in for a gank fleet... ...creep around nice and safe in the w-space system I scanned out 3 hours earlier to get into position for my buddies to warp in with their brawler Proteii and shred your triaged carrier in the anom you're clearing... ... and a host of other thing. Totally not safe at all.
Being cloaked is being docked by other means. You can't do jack to anyone while cloaked.
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2735
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:38:00 -
[725] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:You want honorable 1v1. make a friend, go to some backwater system, and 1v1. But be prepared to be disrupted if you do, because in EVE sandbox does't mean you can do what you want, it means EVERYONE can do what they want.
Apparently it actually means "everyone else can do what they want and you can just play a different game if you don't bring a blob."
Honestly, I hope to every god ever that this comes to TQ simply because of how furious it will make all the right people.
A fight that can't be screwed with will ruin the day of so very, very many people and there's nothing more eve-like than that. |
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:39:00 -
[726] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I'm almost completely sure that CCP can't financially afford for their sole product to die simply because a few bittervets are offended.
Just saying.
And that's part of the core problem really. People are so obsessed with the sandbox going by their own rules, that they will go to any length to avoid change, even if it means killing the game.
They literally are so self-centered that they will cling to their obsession of being a "bad guy" even if it means hundreds of people in a foreign country losing their jobs in RL. |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1929
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:39:00 -
[727] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Sturm Gewehr wrote:I don't think people realize that the tools for arena/tournament style pvp are just not in the game unless CCP is directly organizing and running it. You cannot regulate fits, implants, boundary violations, countdowns to prevent early locking, time limits, tidi, spectator cameras that don't interfere with or can be interfered with, pod immunity, etc. If eve was "real" it would be trivial for organizations to run tournaments with these restrictions in place. You can make all the rules in the world but you have no seamless way to enforce them without the tools something like the dojo would introduce. There are mechanics for sov, facwar, dueling, pos bashes, wormholes etc. in the game but there is nothing for tournaments without CCP interaction.
There is a playerbase that highly values tournament/arena style pvp. Unfortunately this only exists on the live server twice a year in NEO and AT. Many players only pvp during these time periods because EVE otherwise does not support their style of play.
To everyone complaining about how this shouldn't be implemented because of potential XYZ exploit, this is a prototype on a test server. If we are already recognizing it now you can be sure CCP will fix it before it does go live IF it goes live. If they don't all the proponents of it will be slamming CCP for not doing something about it when it was a known issue day 1 along with the rest of you. I don't think CCP wants another monoclegate.
Giving players the tools to run their own tournaments (assuming dojos evolve to support this) is a huge boon to the small competitive pvp community and will drastically improve the quality and skill level of participants in the AT and NEO because teams will be more practiced and CCP will have more opportunities to evaluate their rules and craft a more competitive meta.
And if you don't like dojos robbing you of your content then go blow them up! It is interesting how many players here who are complaining about losing out on content belong to organizations that deliberately deny content with blue lists/NAPs/not engaging without massive superiority and also use content denial as a form of warfare.
For everyone complaining about eve becoming safe just remember that losses do occur and the are REAL, AT runs can cost into the hundreds of billions. The ships are REAL, the ammo is REAL, when they blow up there is a REAL wreck just like anywhere else. Just because arena style combat is introduced does not mean CCP or the players are just going to pack up sov, NPC 0.0, FW, dueling, wardecs, suicide ganking, wormholes, etc. and just focus on dojos.
Also keep in mind if this becomes a well implemented function within the game it could draw more subscribers. Not everyone who starts playing eve because they heard about a giant sov fight actually goes into sov warfare. Not everyone who does dojos will do dojos 100% of the time. Finally a post from someone relevant to the topic, I agree with everything said here there is no valid and logical argument against the dojos implementation. This is really important, and while it's obvious that people shouldn't be able to screw with people fighting inside the dojo we should be able to interact with the dojo itself since it's a deployable and with the people deploying it.
Not empty quoting.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2844
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:40:00 -
[728] - Quote
any ETA when connecting to duality will work again? When i want to connect to it the launcher ends up rendering nothing, just a white, empty rectangle.
would like to test it eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
106
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:40:00 -
[729] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: If you want to be "safe" from other people, be docked. There should be no exceptions.
Because God knows, when I'm cloaked up, I'm totally not 100% safe while I... ...watch your staging system movements to report intel... ...angle in behind you in the ice belt as a warp-in for a gank fleet... ...creep around nice and safe in the w-space system I scanned out 3 hours earlier to get into position for my buddies to warp in with their brawler Proteii and shred your triaged carrier in the anom you're clearing... ... and a host of other thing. Totally not safe at all. Hey, that's my style! XD The most sexy piece of clothing New Eden saw to date! The 'Open Avenue' short dress! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Join my mailing list, "wemew", for fast and easy future updates! (without the ") |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
292
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:41:00 -
[730] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:When the core principles of EVE are resulting in people logging off and playing other games, roaming for three hours and finding no fights or not even undocking because everyone else's ability to interfere completely kills your own ability to do what you want in the game in the first place, perhaps it's time to revisit those core principles.
This and it comes from both sides...
Suggest a war dec mechanic that might increase people's willingness to undock and you'll be accused of wanting "Cheap gank kills" and wanting risk free indy corp farming.
Suggest a mechanic that might get more people to TRY PVPing in a controlled environment - "Screw off you're ruining the sandbox"
Personally I'm tired of it because I want a better GAME with people UNDOCKING. The ability to run mini PVP tournaments would be such a boon for content creators I'm stunned that there is there are this many tears over the mockup. How many motivated people could do more with a few toys to play with in the sandbox? I think this is a situation where the good of the game needs to be given a little priority over ideological sandbox purity.
|
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
174
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:42:00 -
[731] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Arrendis wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: If you want to be "safe" from other people, be docked. There should be no exceptions.
Because God knows, when I'm cloaked up, I'm totally not 100% safe while I... ...watch your staging system movements to report intel... ...angle in behind you in the ice belt as a warp-in for a gank fleet... ...creep around nice and safe in the w-space system I scanned out 3 hours earlier to get into position for my buddies to warp in with their brawler Proteii and shred your triaged carrier in the anom you're clearing... ... and a host of other thing. Totally not safe at all. Being cloaked is being docked by other means. You can't do jack to anyone while cloaked.
If you think that I'm not doing anything to anyone while I'm arranging for the murder of everything from solo miners to 150-man T3 fleets, please, keep making my job easier, thanks. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5214
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:42:00 -
[732] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:any ETA when connecting to duality will work again? When i want to connect to it the launcher ends up rendering nothing, just a white, empty rectangle.
would like to test it theres a thread regarding that in the test server sub forum =]I[= |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
292
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:43:00 -
[733] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Being cloaked is being docked by other means. You can't do jack to anyone while cloaked.
The hunters in my black ops fleets disagree with this statement. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
3991
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:44:00 -
[734] - Quote
the first mmo i played was city of heroes and the arenas in that game were only used for "roleplay" which was quite distressing to discover when i finally found a room that hadn't disabled 'observer' mode
beyond that, i had a bad feeling about the thread when i saw it announced, but i can't vocalise the bad feeling into a rational reason why i shouldn't like the concept. so it's not really a feeling worth expressing, is it? |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5214
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:45:00 -
[735] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:the first mmo i played was city of heroes and the arenas in that game were only used for "roleplay" which was quite distressing to discover when i finally found a room that hadn't disabled 'observer' mode
beyond that, i had a bad feeling about the thread when i saw it announced, but i can't vocalise the bad feeling into a rational reason why i shouldn't like the concept. so it's not really a feeling worth expressing, is it? ill echo that =]I[= |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:46:00 -
[736] - Quote
Toriessian wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:When the core principles of EVE are resulting in people logging off and playing other games, roaming for three hours and finding no fights or not even undocking because everyone else's ability to interfere completely kills your own ability to do what you want in the game in the first place, perhaps it's time to revisit those core principles.
This and it comes from both sides... Suggest a war dec mechanic that might increase people's willingness to undock and you'll be accused of wanting "Cheap gank kills" and wanting risk free indy corp farming. Suggest a mechanic that might get more people to TRY PVPing in a controlled environment - "Screw off you're ruining the sandbox" Personally I'm tired of it because I want a better GAME with people UNDOCKING. The ability to run mini PVP tournaments would be such a boon for content creators I'm stunned that there is there are this many tears over the mockup. How many motivated people could do more with a few toys to play with in the sandbox? I think this is a situation where the good of the game needs to be given a little priority over ideological sandbox purity.
It's the same people against dojos over and over, some of them probably using alts, people with a metagame agenda ruining eve yet again.
Same happened when CCP introduced duels : http://i.imgur.com/5v1zptC.jpg |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5217
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 17:53:00 -
[737] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:It's the same people against dojos over and over, some of them probably using alts, people with a metagame agenda ruining eve yet again. Same happened when CCP introduced duels : http://i.imgur.com/5v1zptC.jpg actually you have been talking much more than anyone else http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/375485-1 =]I[= |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:03:00 -
[738] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
And that's bad because? Honestly if people with an agenda against dojos weren't posting false informations and logical fallacies I wouldn't need to post.
You are free to post your opinion, posting stuff like "eve will die because I said so" or "consensual pvp is alien to eve" is ridiculous, especially for people that aren't the target demographic for dojos.
|
Sturm Gewehr
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:11:00 -
[739] - Quote
There is no sweeping generalisation you can make about what type of players this change positively affects. It isn't just good for casual, new players, vets, hardcore players, carebears, blob f1ers, small gang and solo enthusiasts, unemployed people who can play all day or people who have busy work/family lives. This caters to everyone from every section of eve who wants to get a quick fix, work on their piloting mechanics, or are interested in trying their hands in tournament style formats without waiting for CCP.
There is on demand content for sov (go shoot a structure/or wait for jabber pings), facwar (orbit a button), miners (warp to belt/site), ratters (warp to belt/site), mission runners (talk to agent, undock, warp to mission), trading (you don't even have to undock!) and I can go on.
Tell me where I can go for tournament style PvP? Because it doesn't exist unless CCP devotes their spare personal time to do it. It just doesn't. Why can't we have content that you can interfere with? We are open to that.
The structure is destroyable, probably won't be hard to make it so that when put into RF mode ships in the arena get moved on grid with the structure to be vulnerable. Ships will be vulnerable when filling the dojo and moving to/from it. There are mechanics in eve where ships are made invulnerable by structures until the structures are destroyed, this is not a new precedent. There is so much "immersion" and sandbox breaking stuff currently in game because it improves gameplay and balancing. This in turn makes the game fun and enjoyable for people. I couldn't care less if this game introduced changes that improved the quality of life of other players while also providing me potential content because it is good for the health of the game and CCP. In fact I WANT players in all walks of them game to be happy and have their gameplay supported.
Currently in AT/NEO it is impossible for players to leave the arena because there is a death field and warp interdiction bubble that works on all ship types. If you burn out manually you die and you cannot initiate warp at all. You only leave if you get moved out. A similar system could be introduced to prevent a lot of the abuse.
Anyone saying this shouldn't be introduced because potential exploitation needs to realize that there will be months or years of development on this put into preventing possible exploitation before it goes live if it does at all. That is why it gets tested.
|
Raquel Rova
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:19:00 -
[740] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:It's the same people against dojos over and over, some of them probably using alts, people with a metagame agenda ruining eve yet again. Same happened when CCP introduced duels : http://i.imgur.com/5v1zptC.jpg
Same person for dojos over and over. Clearly using an alt, repeating himself... Because clearly if you say it enough, its true right? Not that you might argue or discuss any points raised regarding the ideals of the feature when compared to the rest of the game and its extensive history.
Leading argument being those against the idea are irrelevant... and of course""
Yet your justification is your style of play and those you associate with would benefit so its better? Well done.
Flawless logic, no fallacies to be found.
|
|
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:22:00 -
[741] - Quote
Toriessian wrote:What if a lot of players DO see merit in that feature.
I'm sure a lot of (e.g. Miners) will see "merit" in them being invulnerable while undocked. Does that mean it's a good idea?
Try to look beyond their initial glee of this feature (or short-run benefits of this feature), and think about the consequences of this feature, or any feature, for EVE as a whole.
If people can't do that, they should pay attention to people who can. If they don't want to - they should be quiet. |
Noriko Mai
1534
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:24:00 -
[742] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:any ETA when connecting to duality will work again? When i want to connect to it the launcher ends up rendering nothing, just a white, empty rectangle.
would like to test it
CCP Veritas wrote:Folks can use "/build:828481" instead of "/server:Duality" in the launcher shortcut to patch. Directions should work from that point forward.
Hopefully the stated directions will start working later, but for now that'll workaround.
It is working.
Use " /build:828481" for launcher shortcut. Let it patch. Use " /server:Duality" for .../bin/exefile.exe shortcut to launch eve. -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5498
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:25:00 -
[743] - Quote
If this has anything to do with instanced PVP, then nope. Hell no, not one little piece of it thank you. EVE has always been a single-shard environment, that's what makes it unique. Take that away and what's left? GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:30:00 -
[744] - Quote
Raquel Rova wrote:Same person for dojos over and over. Clearly using an alt, repeating himself... Because clearly if you say it enough, its true right? Not that you might argue or discuss any points raised regarding the ideals of the feature when compared to the rest of the game and its extensive history. Leading argument being those against the idea are irrelevant... and of course" " Yet your justification is your style of play and those you associate with would benefit so its better? Well done. Flawless logic, no fallacies to be found.
Please, don't blame your poor reading comprehension on me.
As seen here : http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/375485-1 I'm almost always replying to the same people (that are very vocal against dojos).
And when people like this are posting :
Jenn aSide wrote: When i'm on my alt (in a null alliance) in a fleet fight , I'm pvping.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are using alts to force their narrative, if you think I'm wrong please tell why, don't just spout your opinion about how I'm wrong because you said so.
CCP fixing clunky legacy stuff like the inability to have player made tournaments is a "benefit", but it's also a fix to the game, our gameplay was gimped for years remember that.
Please try to focus.
|
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
292
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:30:00 -
[745] - Quote
Marian Devers wrote:
Try to look beyond their initial glee of this feature (or short-run benefits of this feature), and think about the consequences of this feature, or any feature, for EVE as a whole.
If people can't do that, they should pay attention to people who can. If they don't want to - they should be quiet.
Oh of course. Anyone who views the consequences as positive when you disagree with them should be quiet. I see.
Your example was also a horrible false equivalence for the reasons on this post |
newfage
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:34:00 -
[746] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:If this has anything to do with instanced PVP, then nope. Hell no, not one little piece of it thank you. EVE has always been a single-shard environment, that's what makes it unique. Take that away and what's left?
Good, don't use dojos then. |
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:36:00 -
[747] - Quote
You know it's an awesome feature when you have to accuse everyone opposed of logical fallacies, instead of disproving their arguments against.
That, or this is a forum for english teachers, and not EVE pilots =P |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8368
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:37:00 -
[748] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Raquel Rova wrote:Same person for dojos over and over. Clearly using an alt, repeating himself... Because clearly if you say it enough, its true right? Not that you might argue or discuss any points raised regarding the ideals of the feature when compared to the rest of the game and its extensive history. Leading argument being those against the idea are irrelevant... and of course" " Yet your justification is your style of play and those you associate with would benefit so its better? Well done. Flawless logic, no fallacies to be found. Please, don't blame your poor reading comprehension on me. As seen here : http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/375485-1 I'm almost always replying to the same people (that are very vocal against dojos). And when people like this are posting : Jenn aSide wrote: When i'm on my alt (in a null alliance) in a fleet fight , I'm pvping.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are using alts to force their narrative, if you think I'm wrong please tell why, don't just spout your opinion about how I'm wrong because you said so. CCP fixing clunky legacy stuff like the inability to have player made tournaments is a "benefit", but it's also a fix to the game, our gameplay was gimped for years remember that. Please try to focus.
Who needs to post with alts when with every post you make yourself and your side look foolish to the point where CCP guys are all like "if this guy likes it, maybe we should reconsider" lol.
The whole idea is silly though, some people need to think that people who disagree with them are 'up to something'. They can't accept the idea that they could be wrong or that people disagree because they care about EVE Online. |
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow The Revenant Order
1523
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:42:00 -
[749] - Quote
Not. Even. Once. "War is not measured in terms of who wins or loses, who is right or wrong.-á It is measured in terms of who survives"-á |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:43:00 -
[750] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Who needs to post with alts when with every post you make yourself and your side look foolish to the point where CCP guys are all like "if this guy likes it, maybe we should reconsider" lol.
The whole idea is silly though, some people need to think that people who disagree with them are 'up to something'. They can't accept the idea that they could be wrong or that people disagree because they care about EVE Online.
Are you talking in the name of CCP employees ? My posts are foolish because you said so, instead of proving me wrong (you know like I proved you wrong over and over) you just spout your opinion.
I wish people like you would stick to factual data instead of narrative spins, I guess it must be hard when your logic is flawed.
You are also implying that people for this change don't care about Eve online, self-entitlement + narrative spins instead of using logic and valid arguments.
People showed you that this won't kill pvp or eve, you can keep your doom and gloom comments and logical fallacies to yourself.
Consensual pvp exist in eve since 2005, it was under-designed but CCP is fixing it.
Please, try to focus. |
|
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5499
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:44:00 -
[751] - Quote
newfage wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:If this has anything to do with instanced PVP, then nope. Hell no, not one little piece of it thank you. EVE has always been a single-shard environment, that's what makes it unique. Take that away and what's left? Good, don't use dojos then.
You completely misrepresented the point of my post, but I'm not surprised. I'm learning to expect pretentiousness from carebears.
In any case, after reading through this thread, I've decided I can't oppose this idea, but I can't support it either. I want to see more development of the idea and more feedback on it by people that actually use it on the test servers. There are a few things that would go against the grain of the nature of EVE with this:
1. instancing: it can't happen. It won't be EVE anymore, EVE will be dead.
2. safety: don't do this, at the very least, make the Dojo itself scannable and shootable like a mobile depot, so we can blast it into reinforce and come back after a timer to steal stuff, just like on a depot. Players using it will be forced to defend it, or lose it, in true EVE fashion.
I can't think of anything more to add here, but I will say this much - if it has the potential to liven up the PVP scene and encourage more carebears to shoot at things, and learn to fight back instead of just rolling corp/running away/petitioning CCP for griefing, then it can't be all bad.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:47:00 -
[752] - Quote
Marian Devers wrote:You know it's an awesome feature when you have to accuse everyone opposed of logical fallacies, instead of disproving their arguments against.
That, or this is a forum for english teachers, and not EVE pilots =P
You are implying that I didn't disprove their arguments over and over.
Please do your research : http://eve-search.com/thread/375485-1/author/Bamboozlement
PS : my last post to you is a perfect example
*shoot a plexammo at you* I have a Ph.D |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2737
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:48:00 -
[753] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote: 2. safety: don't do this, at the very least, make the Dojo itself scannable and shootable like a mobile depot, so we can blast it into reinforce and come back after a timer to steal stuff, just like on a depot. Players using it will be forced to defend it, or lose it, in true EVE fashion.
It's already like that. |
newfage
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:49:00 -
[754] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:newfage wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:If this has anything to do with instanced PVP, then nope. Hell no, not one little piece of it thank you. EVE has always been a single-shard environment, that's what makes it unique. Take that away and what's left? Good, don't use dojos then. You completely misrepresented the point of my post, but I'm not surprised. I'm learning to expect pretentiousness from carebears. In any case, after reading through this thread, I've decided I can't oppose this idea, but I can't support it either. I want to see more development of the idea and more feedback on it by people that actually use it on the test servers. There are a few things that would go against the grain of the nature of EVE with this: 1. instancing: it can't happen. It won't be EVE anymore, EVE will be dead. 2. safety: don't do this, at the very least, make the Dojo itself scannable and shootable like a mobile depot, so we can blast it into reinforce and come back after a timer to steal stuff, just like on a depot. Players using it will be forced to defend it, or lose it, in true EVE fashion. I can't think of anything more to add here, but I will say this much - if it has the potential to liven up the PVP scene and encourage more carebears to shoot at things, and learn to fight back instead of just rolling corp/running away/petitioning CCP for griefing, then it can't be all bad.
Yes eve will die because you said so, can I have the lotto numbers for tomorrow? |
Sturm Gewehr
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
34
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:49:00 -
[755] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:newfage wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:If this has anything to do with instanced PVP, then nope. Hell no, not one little piece of it thank you. EVE has always been a single-shard environment, that's what makes it unique. Take that away and what's left? Good, don't use dojos then. You completely misrepresented the point of my post, but I'm not surprised. I'm learning to expect pretentiousness from carebears. In any case, after reading through this thread, I've decided I can't oppose this idea, but I can't support it either. I want to see more development of the idea and more feedback on it by people that actually use it on the test servers. There are a few things that would go against the grain of the nature of EVE with this: 1. instancing: it can't happen. It won't be EVE anymore, EVE will be dead. 2. safety: don't do this, at the very least, make the Dojo itself scannable and shootable like a mobile depot, so we can blast it into reinforce and come back after a timer to steal stuff, just like on a depot. Players using it will be forced to defend it, or lose it, in true EVE fashion. I can't think of anything more to add here, but I will say this much - if it has the potential to liven up the PVP scene and encourage more carebears to shoot at things, and learn to fight back instead of just rolling corp/running away/petitioning CCP for griefing, then it can't be all bad.
You may want to read the thread again and then edit your post. |
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow The Revenant Order
1524
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:50:00 -
[756] - Quote
I do support it only if it is scannable and able to be destroyed. Anything promoting instancing or safety from outside interference is not in the spirit of EVE.
New Eden is a cold, cruel place, as are its denizens, so why should we support something that promotes safety? "War is not measured in terms of who wins or loses, who is right or wrong.-á It is measured in terms of who survives"-á |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5500
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:51:00 -
[757] - Quote
newfage wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:newfage wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:If this has anything to do with instanced PVP, then nope. Hell no, not one little piece of it thank you. EVE has always been a single-shard environment, that's what makes it unique. Take that away and what's left? Good, don't use dojos then. You completely misrepresented the point of my post, but I'm not surprised. I'm learning to expect pretentiousness from carebears. In any case, after reading through this thread, I've decided I can't oppose this idea, but I can't support it either. I want to see more development of the idea and more feedback on it by people that actually use it on the test servers. There are a few things that would go against the grain of the nature of EVE with this: 1. instancing: it can't happen. It won't be EVE anymore, EVE will be dead. 2. safety: don't do this, at the very least, make the Dojo itself scannable and shootable like a mobile depot, so we can blast it into reinforce and come back after a timer to steal stuff, just like on a depot. Players using it will be forced to defend it, or lose it, in true EVE fashion. I can't think of anything more to add here, but I will say this much - if it has the potential to liven up the PVP scene and encourage more carebears to shoot at things, and learn to fight back instead of just rolling corp/running away/petitioning CCP for griefing, then it can't be all bad. Yes eve will die because you said so, can I have the lotto numbers for tomorrow?
EVE has always been a single-shard nothing-is-instanced game. If that changes, then it's not EVE anymore. It's really that simple, it's got nothing to do with what I say, and everything to do with what EVE is. I think you are just being argumentative for argument's own sake. I'm glad I could demonstrate to you the way in which an opinion can be shifted when examining opposing viewpoints, like I just did. That's called intellectual honesty. Try it someday. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Sturm Gewehr
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
34
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:52:00 -
[758] - Quote
Jack Carrigan wrote:I do support it only if it is scannable and able to be destroyed. Anything promoting instancing or safety from outside interference is not in the spirit of EVE.
New Eden is a cold, cruel place, as are its denizens, so why should we support something that promotes safety?
Read the original post by CCP. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2737
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:52:00 -
[759] - Quote
Jack Carrigan wrote:I do support it only if it is scannable and able to be destroyed. Anything promoting instancing or safety from outside interference is not in the spirit of EVE.
New Eden is a cold, cruel place, as are its denizens, so why should we support something that promotes safety?
The "cold, cruel place" pony gets trotted out a lot, doesn't it?
Anyway, it can be scanned down and shot and destroyed. This has been said even since the very beginning of the thread. |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5500
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:53:00 -
[760] - Quote
Sturm Gewehr wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:newfage wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:If this has anything to do with instanced PVP, then nope. Hell no, not one little piece of it thank you. EVE has always been a single-shard environment, that's what makes it unique. Take that away and what's left? Good, don't use dojos then. You completely misrepresented the point of my post, but I'm not surprised. I'm learning to expect pretentiousness from carebears. In any case, after reading through this thread, I've decided I can't oppose this idea, but I can't support it either. I want to see more development of the idea and more feedback on it by people that actually use it on the test servers. There are a few things that would go against the grain of the nature of EVE with this: 1. instancing: it can't happen. It won't be EVE anymore, EVE will be dead. 2. safety: don't do this, at the very least, make the Dojo itself scannable and shootable like a mobile depot, so we can blast it into reinforce and come back after a timer to steal stuff, just like on a depot. Players using it will be forced to defend it, or lose it, in true EVE fashion. I can't think of anything more to add here, but I will say this much - if it has the potential to liven up the PVP scene and encourage more carebears to shoot at things, and learn to fight back instead of just rolling corp/running away/petitioning CCP for griefing, then it can't be all bad. You may want to read the thread again and then edit your post.
Sure mum, I'll get right on that...
Oh wait, no I won't, because who the **** are you? I read it just fine thanks, and I wrote exactly what I meant and intended. How about you don't be a pretentious arseclown and pretend like I answer to you in any way at all. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:54:00 -
[761] - Quote
Jack Carrigan wrote:I do support it only if it is scannable and able to be destroyed. Anything promoting instancing or safety from outside interference is not in the spirit of EVE.
New Eden is a cold, cruel place, as are its denizens, so why should we support something that promotes safety?
Do you also complain you can't blob AT teams?
Eve is about risk vs reward, it's not necessary a grimdark edgy cruel place.
This is not about promoting safety, ships will explode that's not what I would call safe, I guess you didn't read the thread and maybe you are posting because of a jabber ping forum cta xxx.
I have a Ph.D |
newfage
Republic University Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:58:00 -
[762] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote: Sure mum, I'll get right on that...
Oh wait, no I won't, because who the **** are you? I read it just fine thanks, and I wrote exactly what I meant and intended. How about you don't be a pretentious arseclown and pretend like I answer to you in any way at all.
It's not like your opinion is irrelevant to this topic or anything (this is sarcasm, your opinion is irrelevant here). |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5222
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 18:59:00 -
[763] - Quote
newfage wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote: Sure mum, I'll get right on that...
Oh wait, no I won't, because who the **** are you? I read it just fine thanks, and I wrote exactly what I meant and intended. How about you don't be a pretentious arseclown and pretend like I answer to you in any way at all.
It's not like your opinion is irrelevant to this topic or anything (this is sarcasm, your opinion is irrelevant here). Why is that exactly? =]I[= |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5502
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:00:00 -
[764] - Quote
newfage wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote: Sure mum, I'll get right on that...
Oh wait, no I won't, because who the **** are you? I read it just fine thanks, and I wrote exactly what I meant and intended. How about you don't be a pretentious arseclown and pretend like I answer to you in any way at all.
It's not like your opinion is irrelevant to this topic or anything (this is sarcasm, your opinion is irrelevant here).
Well it's a good thing for me then that CCP will be the judge of that and you won't. FYI, sarcasm is by its very definition a failure to form a relevant opinion so.... pot, meet kettle. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
newfage
Republic University Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:02:00 -
[765] - Quote
CCP should close this thread and only ask relevant people like AT participants about this, so many irrelevant people spouting nonsense, please go.
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2740
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:05:00 -
[766] - Quote
newfage wrote:CCP should close this thread and only ask relevant people like AT participants about this, so many irrelevant people spouting nonsense, please go.
That would include you, wouldn't it? Post with your main or STFU.
|
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
3993
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:06:00 -
[767] - Quote
npc corp character with gimmick name calls primary character's opinion irrelevant
circumstantial humour |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5502
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:07:00 -
[768] - Quote
newfage wrote:CCP should close this thread and only ask relevant people like AT participants about this, so many irrelevant people spouting nonsense, please go.
EVERYBODY that plays EVE is relevant, not just AT participants. This is a change that affects EVERYBODY after all. What makes you think that only AT participants have a say? Did they get some kind of elite special membership with their subscription or something that gives them more say than everyone else? I know, let's see how long EVE lasts with nothing but AT players.
I note also that you've never been in an AT so.... bye. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5222
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:08:00 -
[769] - Quote
newfage wrote:CCP should close this thread and only ask relevant people like AT participants about this, so many irrelevant people spouting nonsense, please go.
Had we been told this would stay on the test server you would have a point,but as it's been pointed out by the csm there's a though that this might make it to tranquility literally everyone's opinion has some bearing.
=]I[= |
newfage
Republic University Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:09:00 -
[770] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:newfage wrote:CCP should close this thread and only ask relevant people like AT participants about this, so many irrelevant people spouting nonsense, please go. That would include you, wouldn't it? Post with your main or STFU.
yes it would include me too on this char
pvelords and f1monkeys giving their opinion about tournament training tools is hilarious.
how about we ask renters about this l0l |
|
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:10:00 -
[771] - Quote
newfage wrote:CCP should close this thread and only ask relevant people like AT participants about this, so many irrelevant people spouting nonsense, please go.
They are relevant because this feature would only impact them? Where's that claim of logical fallacy that keeps cropping up? You have a good one right here! |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5502
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:11:00 -
[772] - Quote
newfage wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:newfage wrote:CCP should close this thread and only ask relevant people like AT participants about this, so many irrelevant people spouting nonsense, please go. That would include you, wouldn't it? Post with your main or STFU. yes it would include me too on this char pvelords and f1monkeys giving their opinion about tournament training tools is hilarious. how about we ask renters about this l0l
Yes, we should ask everyone that plays EVE. The only people, IMO, whose opinions are irrelevant in this, are elitist scumbags like yourself. We have literally no reason to believe you have another toon unless you post on it. Unless you have something to hide. What are you afraid of? GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:14:00 -
[773] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:newfage wrote:CCP should close this thread and only ask relevant people like AT participants about this, so many irrelevant people spouting nonsense, please go.
EVERYBODY that plays EVE is relevant, not just AT participants. This is a change that affects EVERYBODY after all. What makes you think that only AT participants have a say? Did they get some kind of elite special membership with their subscription or something that gives them more say than everyone else? I know, let's see how long EVE lasts with nothing but AT players. I note also that you've never been in an AT so.... bye.
Should people in HS l4 mission runners complain about nullsec changes? Should CCP listen to them? Are you implying that introducing dojos will remove fw, lowsec, pirating, pve, nullsec, blobbing, exploration, industry, trading, scamming, etc etc etc?
Please don't use logical fallacies. I have a Ph.D |
newfage
Republic University Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:14:00 -
[774] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:newfage wrote:CCP should close this thread and only ask relevant people like AT participants about this, so many irrelevant people spouting nonsense, please go.
EVERYBODY that plays EVE is relevant, not just AT participants. This is a change that affects EVERYBODY after all. What makes you think that only AT participants have a say? Did they get some kind of elite special membership with their subscription or something that gives them more say than everyone else? I know, let's see how long EVE lasts with nothing but AT players. I note also that you've never been in an AT so.... bye.
you have no idea what you are talking about you never participated to a tourney, you are irrelevant here please go do pve or whatever you do |
Sturm Gewehr
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
36
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:15:00 -
[775] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Sturm Gewehr wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:newfage wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:If this has anything to do with instanced PVP, then nope. Hell no, not one little piece of it thank you. EVE has always been a single-shard environment, that's what makes it unique. Take that away and what's left? Good, don't use dojos then. You completely misrepresented the point of my post, but I'm not surprised. I'm learning to expect pretentiousness from carebears. In any case, after reading through this thread, I've decided I can't oppose this idea, but I can't support it either. I want to see more development of the idea and more feedback on it by people that actually use it on the test servers. There are a few things that would go against the grain of the nature of EVE with this: 1. instancing: it can't happen. It won't be EVE anymore, EVE will be dead. 2. safety: don't do this, at the very least, make the Dojo itself scannable and shootable like a mobile depot, so we can blast it into reinforce and come back after a timer to steal stuff, just like on a depot. Players using it will be forced to defend it, or lose it, in true EVE fashion. I can't think of anything more to add here, but I will say this much - if it has the potential to liven up the PVP scene and encourage more carebears to shoot at things, and learn to fight back instead of just rolling corp/running away/petitioning CCP for griefing, then it can't be all bad. You may want to read the thread again and then edit your post. Sure mum, I'll get right on that... Oh wait, no I won't, because who the **** are you? I read it just fine thanks, and I wrote exactly what I meant and intended. How about you don't be a pretentious arseclown and pretend like I answer to you in any way at all.
Chill buddy, just wanted to point out that one of your concerns was covered in the original post and many times throughout the thread. I would point it out to you but it won't let me quote that many times in one post.
|
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5502
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:15:00 -
[776] - Quote
newfage wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:newfage wrote:CCP should close this thread and only ask relevant people like AT participants about this, so many irrelevant people spouting nonsense, please go.
EVERYBODY that plays EVE is relevant, not just AT participants. This is a change that affects EVERYBODY after all. What makes you think that only AT participants have a say? Did they get some kind of elite special membership with their subscription or something that gives them more say than everyone else? I know, let's see how long EVE lasts with nothing but AT players. I note also that you've never been in an AT so.... bye. you have no idea what you are talking about you never participated to a tourney, you are irrelevant here please go do pve or whatever you do
Speaking of relevance in PVP, how's that 0-2 kb working out for you? GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
newfage
Republic University Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:16:00 -
[777] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:newfage wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:newfage wrote:CCP should close this thread and only ask relevant people like AT participants about this, so many irrelevant people spouting nonsense, please go. That would include you, wouldn't it? Post with your main or STFU. yes it would include me too on this char pvelords and f1monkeys giving their opinion about tournament training tools is hilarious. how about we ask renters about this l0l Yes, we should ask everyone that plays EVE. The only people, IMO, whose opinions are irrelevant in this, are elitist scumbags like yourself. We have literally no reason to believe you have another toon unless you post on it. Unless you have something to hide. What are you afraid of?
cry about it to some level4 mission agent, CCP should lock this and only talk with CSM and relevant people, period. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5223
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:19:00 -
[778] - Quote
newfage wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:newfage wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:newfage wrote:CCP should close this thread and only ask relevant people like AT participants about this, so many irrelevant people spouting nonsense, please go. That would include you, wouldn't it? Post with your main or STFU. yes it would include me too on this char pvelords and f1monkeys giving their opinion about tournament training tools is hilarious. how about we ask renters about this l0l Yes, we should ask everyone that plays EVE. The only people, IMO, whose opinions are irrelevant in this, are elitist scumbags like yourself. We have literally no reason to believe you have another toon unless you post on it. Unless you have something to hide. What are you afraid of? cry about it to some level4 mission agent, CCP should lock this and only talk with CSM and relevant people, period. Hence the thread ya knuckle scraper, because this might get to the main server it's relivant to everyone with a sub. =]I[= |
newfage
Republic University Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:20:00 -
[779] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:newfage wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:newfage wrote:CCP should close this thread and only ask relevant people like AT participants about this, so many irrelevant people spouting nonsense, please go.
EVERYBODY that plays EVE is relevant, not just AT participants. This is a change that affects EVERYBODY after all. What makes you think that only AT participants have a say? Did they get some kind of elite special membership with their subscription or something that gives them more say than everyone else? I know, let's see how long EVE lasts with nothing but AT players. I note also that you've never been in an AT so.... bye. you have no idea what you are talking about you never participated to a tourney, you are irrelevant here please go do pve or whatever you do Speaking of relevance in PVP, how's that 0-2 kb working out for you?
my standby triage socket closed, too bad |
Sturm Gewehr
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
36
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:22:00 -
[780] - Quote
This has a lot more potential than just being an AT training tool or gimmick for a few players. This has potential to give one group of players the structured pvp they desire while giving other groups of players content generation (loot pinatas in space). I think that other player's feedback in regards to how this can be achieved is valuable. Sure someone who has participated in tournaments and understands them would likely have more valuable feedback about how to implement the fights in the dojo, but the dojos themselves are a part of eve and effect Eve as a whole.
I think there are a lot of people in both camps who are selling this idea short. |
|
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5502
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:22:00 -
[781] - Quote
Sturm Gewehr wrote:
Chill buddy, just wanted to point out that one of your concerns was covered in the original post and many times throughout the thread. I would point it out to you but it won't let me quote that many times in one post.
I know, I did read it, I've been antagonised by a lot of idiots tonight and it did seem quite pretentious to suggest I edit my post but, in actuality, I was just trying to be as constructive and descriptive as possible about what I feel is most important. Essentially, reinforcing what I agree with in the idea. Perhaps I overreacted, but I've had a lot to deal with tonight. I certainly jumped the gun in vehemently opposing the idea in my first post, that much I'll own in its entirety. In any case, I do want to see EVE improve, but without losing its flavour. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:22:00 -
[782] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Hence the thread ya knuckle scraper, because this might get to the main server it's relivant to everyone with a sub.
Again, this is not true.
It's only relevant (in a negative way) to people that blob people looking for fair fights.
Its objectively relevant in a positive way to a larger number of people.
I have a Ph.D |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
The Scope Gallente Federation
1042
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:24:00 -
[783] - Quote
ok, so from an outside player's perspective, how can I kill people that are using this mechanic? How much effort does it take to kill the dojo deployable?
If this provides any significant level of safety to the users, I will be leaving this game. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
293
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:26:00 -
[784] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Hence the thread ya knuckle scraper, because this might get to the main server it's relivant to everyone with a sub.
Anyone on either side of the debate not understanding this should probably "shut up"
ISD should clean some of the junk (attack posts) building in this thread to keep conversation on track. Last couple pages have been bad. |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5505
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:29:00 -
[785] - Quote
newfage wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:newfage wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:newfage wrote:CCP should close this thread and only ask relevant people like AT participants about this, so many irrelevant people spouting nonsense, please go.
EVERYBODY that plays EVE is relevant, not just AT participants. This is a change that affects EVERYBODY after all. What makes you think that only AT participants have a say? Did they get some kind of elite special membership with their subscription or something that gives them more say than everyone else? I know, let's see how long EVE lasts with nothing but AT players. I note also that you've never been in an AT so.... bye. you have no idea what you are talking about you never participated to a tourney, you are irrelevant here please go do pve or whatever you do Speaking of relevance in PVP, how's that 0-2 kb working out for you? my standby triage socket closed, too bad
Most of my PVP I do solo, me against everyone that might come against me. You assume you know something about me, but you don't. I am a single-account holding solo PVP'er and I find plenty of good fights - no links, no alts, just me vs everyone - when I'm looking. Lately, not so much, because I've been spending more time training newbros to PVP and just had one of em, a 2014, go out and kill an '08 vet all on his own recently with no help from me. He's my true claim to fame, not one of my kills or fights amounts to what I've accomplished in him.
You have no idea what I do, no idea what I want for EVE, or see in EVE, and it's incredibly arrogant of you to tell me my opinion is irrelevant without knowing anything that you would need to know to conclude that. All you're really doing here is trolling anyway so, move along, nothing to see here. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5505
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:31:00 -
[786] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Hence the thread ya knuckle scraper, because this might get to the main server it's relivant to everyone with a sub.
Again, this is not true. It's only relevant (in a negative way) to people that blob people looking for fair fights. Its objectively relevant in a positive way to a larger number of people.
If there are a larger number of people than the blobbers looking for fair fights, what's stopping them from getting together and counter-blobbing? GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:36:00 -
[787] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Hence the thread ya knuckle scraper, because this might get to the main server it's relivant to everyone with a sub.
Again, this is not true. It's only relevant (in a negative way) to people that blob people looking for fair fights. Its objectively relevant in a positive way to a larger number of people. If there are a larger number of people than the blobbers looking for fair fights, what's stopping them from getting together and counter-blobbing?
First of all the solo community is not that big, people have different TZ, people stopped playing because they had no time to roam and deal with the bullshit, dojos would fix the issue while still being destroyable, people that setup dojos have to defend against "griefers" and people that want to solo can get a quick fight, more content for everyone except maybe blobbers that don't adapt.
Like I said, this won't stop people going against the odds for no reason, sometimes you don't have time/the will and just want a quick fair fight. I have a Ph.D |
Josef Djugashvilis
2540
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:37:00 -
[788] - Quote
pvp in a 'protected' area - the new ultimate care-bears of Eve Online.
Sad really.
This is not a signature. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:40:00 -
[789] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:pvp in a 'protected' area - the new ultimate care-bears of Eve Online.
Sad really.
I hate that CCP is giving the spotlight to carebears during the AT/NEO streams, they should stream hellcamps, afk ishtar ratting and 10% tidi blobs instead !!
And don't forget that asking for your ship to explode in a non risk averse environment is totally what carebears do !
Oh wait. I have a Ph.D |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8368
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:40:00 -
[790] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:pvp in a 'protected' area - the new ultimate care-bears of Eve Online.
Sad really.
$%^&ing CCP, they made me like a Josef Djugashvilis post with the Dojo BS.
The world must really be ending!
|
|
Sturm Gewehr
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
37
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:41:00 -
[791] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Sturm Gewehr wrote:
Chill buddy, just wanted to point out that one of your concerns was covered in the original post and many times throughout the thread. I would point it out to you but it won't let me quote that many times in one post.
I know, I did read it, I've been antagonised by a lot of idiots tonight and it did seem quite pretentious to suggest I edit my post but, in actuality, I was just trying to be as constructive and descriptive as possible about what I feel is most important. Essentially, reinforcing what I agree with in the idea. Perhaps I overreacted, but I've had a lot to deal with tonight. I certainly jumped the gun in vehemently opposing the idea in my first post, that much I'll own in its entirety. In any case, I do want to see EVE improve, but without losing its flavour.
Improving flavour can be a good thing. Instancing has been in the game in the start and more relevantly tournaments have been a highly enjoyed part of the game since 2005 for a large group of players. Unfortunately there is no way to support players running their own tournaments. CCP is offering us a way to create customized, structured, tournament/arena content for the players who want it and loot pinatas/fight generators for those who want it.
Even in its basic implementation on the test server it is far from safe, CCP expressed from ground zero that they want it to be like this. Just as we can work on improving the dojo side of it we can work on improving its value to Eve as a whole for content generation.
The ships after fights do not return to the station, only the pod does. There is MASSIVE risk/reward potential here.
A lot of people are acting like this is some massive, groundbreaking new idea/concept and it really isn't. Structures that store ships with RF timers, ship immunity (pos shields, tournaments, jumping into systems), instancing, tournaments that random players can't warp to and interfere with are all in game and have existed since at least 2005 or at launch. CCP is just giving players the tools to do this without giving up their free time while offering new content to other players and a new way to interfere with these tournaments that has not previously been possible. |
Sturm Gewehr
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
40
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:46:00 -
[792] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:pvp in a 'protected' area - the new ultimate care-bears of Eve Online.
Sad really.
$%^&ing CCP, they made me like a Josef Djugashvilis post with the Dojo BS. The world must really be ending!
You agree tournament pilots are the ultimate carebears?
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:48:00 -
[793] - Quote
Sturm Gewehr wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:pvp in a 'protected' area - the new ultimate care-bears of Eve Online.
Sad really.
$%^&ing CCP, they made me like a Josef Djugashvilis post with the Dojo BS. The world must really be ending! You agree tournament pilots are the ultimate carebears?
It's scary but some people here genuinely think like that.. I have a Ph.D |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5223
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:49:00 -
[794] - Quote
Sturm Gewehr wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:pvp in a 'protected' area - the new ultimate care-bears of Eve Online.
Sad really.
$%^&ing CCP, they made me like a Josef Djugashvilis post with the Dojo BS. The world must really be ending! You agree tournament pilots are the ultimate carebears? never heard of a TourneyBear?! =]I[= |
Raquel Rova
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:51:00 -
[795] - Quote
Sturm Gewehr wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:pvp in a 'protected' area - the new ultimate care-bears of Eve Online.
Sad really.
$%^&ing CCP, they made me like a Josef Djugashvilis post with the Dojo BS. The world must really be ending! You agree tournament pilots are the ultimate carebears?
well i didn't think so before. What about this could you not do before given the proper motivation? |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
293
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 19:58:00 -
[796] - Quote
Raquel Rova wrote:well i didn't think so before. What about this could you not do before given the proper motivation?
Control which ships are stocked in the Dojo? Prevent neutral logi?
Just first thoughts.
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 20:00:00 -
[797] - Quote
Toriessian wrote:Raquel Rova wrote:well i didn't think so before. What about this could you not do before given the proper motivation? Control which ships are stocked in the Dojo? Prevent neutral logi? Just first thoughts.
Add to that OGB links, implants check, boundary violation check, modules check, etc I have a Ph.D |
Sturm Gewehr
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
41
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 20:04:00 -
[798] - Quote
Raquel Rova wrote:Sturm Gewehr wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:pvp in a 'protected' area - the new ultimate care-bears of Eve Online.
Sad really.
$%^&ing CCP, they made me like a Josef Djugashvilis post with the Dojo BS. The world must really be ending! You agree tournament pilots are the ultimate carebears? well i didn't think so before. What about this could you not do before given the proper motivation?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5052836#post5052836 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5053181#post5053181
Among others.
TLDR: The tools to run a proper tournament don't exist unless CCP is directly involved.
EDIT: And when they are involved they are doing it on their free time and not being paid. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
175
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 20:15:00 -
[799] - Quote
Jack Carrigan wrote:I do support it only if it is scannable and able to be destroyed. Anything promoting instancing or safety from outside interference is not in the spirit of EVE.
New Eden is a cold, cruel place, as are its denizens, so why should we support something that promotes safety?
The deployable is already scannable and can be RF'd/destroyed, as has been said multiple times in the thread, yes. |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
494
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 20:20:00 -
[800] - Quote
The drama and whining in this thread is nothing short of hilarious. I actually hope it does go to tranquility just to see the crapstorm that would result from all the so-called problems people are trying to predict. |
|
Noriko Mai
1534
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 20:25:00 -
[801] - Quote
All the talk about scannable dojo, reinforce timer, etc... If only one of you would log in on Duality, he/she would see that the "Dojo" is just a mobile depot with the dojo feature attatched to it. It's a prototype of the dojo function. There actualley are exactly zero facts about its stats. It's a freakin mobile depot with huge cargo. Really people.. so mutch shittalk and anger about nothing. But don't let facts interrupt your discussion. (BTW. This is the first real fact since page 32) -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 20:34:00 -
[802] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:All the talk about scannable dojo, reinforce timer, etc... If only one of you would log in on Duality, he/she would see that the "Dojo" is just a mobile depot with the dojo feature attatched to it. It's a prototype of the dojo function. There actualley are exactly zero facts about its stats. It's a freakin mobile depot with huge cargo. Really people.. so mutch shittalk and anger about nothing. But don't let facts interrupt your discussion. (BTW. This is the first real fact since page 32)
Facts don't matter to people against dojos, and while it's true that we should wait before drawing conclusions people thinking that the idea of consensual pvp is alien to eve are wrong.
But you're right nonetheless. I have a Ph.D |
Please Turn
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 20:43:00 -
[803] - Quote
All this talk about "Eve principles" makes me think that certain people posting here need to get laid as soon as possible. They may need to leave the basement so it's understandable if the thought alone about engaging in such mundane activities just gives them shivers. All I have to say to them is - "Don't worry - your cloaky alts will still be there when you'll come back".
I'm sure I'm not qualified to say anything about what a dojo might do to Eve, if the dojo concept ever hits TQ, but I'm convinced that neither the people raging here are qualified to do so. However, with this in mind, I can think of various way a dojo might get used on TQ: training newbie's for PvP, player run tournaments, training for AT, quick PvP sessions between CTA's for null-bears, and GǪ who knows, maybe, just maybe, streaming "Eve dojo PvP" might become a thing.
p.s. It's hilarious to note that most of the characters posting here against the dojo concept are high-sec gankers, gankers in general, GǪ or characters with no pvp activity whatsoever. What the hell, the hardcore of the hardcore gamers, right?
|
Raquel Rova
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 20:57:00 -
[804] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Toriessian wrote:Raquel Rova wrote:well i didn't think so before. What about this could you not do before given the proper motivation? Control which ships are stocked in the Dojo? Prevent neutral logi? Just first thoughts. Add to that OGB links, implants check, boundary violation check, modules check, etc
Ok, soo... you couldn't have a ref/organizing party organizing a tourney in a test server under pre dojo conditions?
Require all participants to join the organizing corp in the test server, the ceo or others with sufficient rights to look through the assets of the participants ensuring a compliance with fits. Have them set their clone to the station of the event at the time there of, have them undock and pod them. Have refs/organizers with a few long range alpha ships configured to blap at whatever exceeds given boundary the organizers set (eg: sit in the middle, whack anything to exceed 100km). And simply disqualify any that break the rules of underhanded logi or OGB's. If you see someone whos not supposed to be there simply pause the match or run another one. It would be up to the organizers to pick a system remote enough to be unlikely to bump into. Any players you find that consistantly screw with the tourney can be handled by your community with a simple black list.
This example has a way of dealing with: +OGB's +Neutral logi +implant verification +boundary violations +module verification +ship verification
As I said, this would be done on a test server not requiring the actual investment in ships and modules, and under more lab like conditions. other players can still put forth the effort to screw with you if they like, but without real killmails and no purposeful repercussions aside from harvesting frustration, there are more meaningful ways of screwing with folk in the live server where loss matters.
The organizers could set up what ever incentive policy they like to attract participants and fund their operations. Not to mention stream for spectators to enjoy.
If you put half as much effort into trying to solve the situation your self as you do backing a mechanic to do if for you with less options, you could have done something like this long ago. Especially since you speak for so much of the community and have been longing for this content for years. So please, explain how you could not attempt a totally emergent tournament offering complete player control. |
Raquel Rova
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 21:00:00 -
[805] - Quote
Seems to me like that example wouldn't be popular because of the effort involved. So why do you deserve something you are unwilling to work for? |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 21:03:00 -
[806] - Quote
Raquel Rova wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:Toriessian wrote:Raquel Rova wrote:well i didn't think so before. What about this could you not do before given the proper motivation? Control which ships are stocked in the Dojo? Prevent neutral logi? Just first thoughts. Add to that OGB links, implants check, boundary violation check, modules check, etc Ok, soo... you couldn't have a ref/organizing party organizing a tourney in a test server under pre dojo conditions? Require all participants to join the organizing corp in the test server, the ceo or others with sufficient rights to look through the assets of the participants ensuring a compliance with fits. Have them set their clone to the station of the event at the time there of, have them undock and pod them. Have refs/organizers with a few long range alpha ships configured to blap at whatever exceeds given boundary the organizers set (eg: sit in the middle, whack anything to exceed 100km). And simply disqualify any that break the rules of underhanded logi or OGB's. If you see someone whos not supposed to be there simply pause the match or run another one. It would be up to the organizers to pick a system remote enough to be unlikely to bump into. Any players you find that consistantly screw with the tourney can be handled by your community with a simple black list. This example has a way of dealing with: +OGB's +Neutral logi +implant verification +boundary violations +module verification +ship verification As I said, this would be done on a test server not requiring the actual investment in ships and modules, and under more lab like conditions. other players can still put forth the effort to screw with you if they like, but without real killmails and no purposeful repercussions aside from harvesting frustration, there are more meaningful ways of screwing with folk in the live server where loss matters. The organizers could set up what ever incentive policy they like to attract participants and fund their operations. Not to mention stream for spectators to enjoy. If you put half as much effort into trying to solve the situation your self as you do backing a mechanic to do if for you with less options, you could have done something like this long ago. Especially since you speak for so much of the community and have been longing for this content for years. So please, explain how you could not attempt a totally emergent tournament offering complete player control.
Why would I have to gimp my gameplay and add a lot of unnecessary steps to have a clunky solution instead of dojos? Instead of roaming for hours I would have to organize stuff for hours and make sure to have enough people to control pods+mods +have a scarecrow always available to check boundary violations, this is worse than roaming.
Just because you don't like dojos, see how ridiculous it is? You can't possibly be serious. I have a Ph.D |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 21:05:00 -
[807] - Quote
Raquel Rova wrote:Seems to me like that example wouldn't be popular because of the effort involved. So why do you deserve something you are unwilling to work for?
Why is CCP fixing nullsec sov, they could decide not to blob and organize themselves to have no structure bashing, why CCP fixed the Industry UI, people should just deal with a terrible UI.
Why CCP should fix POS management, yes POS management isn't fun but you aren't supposed to have fun in eve.
I have a Ph.D |
Raquel Rova
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 21:12:00 -
[808] - Quote
So basically you don't wanna. If your gameplay was so boring you were suiciding into "impossible odds." I dont think extra effort would get in the way of that boredom. |
Raquel Rova
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 21:17:00 -
[809] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Raquel Rova wrote:Seems to me like that example wouldn't be popular because of the effort involved. So why do you deserve something you are unwilling to work for? Why is CCP fixing nullsec sov, they could decide not to blob and organize themselves to have no structure bashing, why CCP fixed the Industry UI, people should just deal with a terrible UI. Why CCP should fix POS management, yes POS management isn't fun but you aren't supposed to have fun in eve.
Because the purpose of nullsec was always fair fights right. Once again you depart down the road of attempting to discredit any possible opposition by injecting the ideas of industry UI and such. In fact you are the only one to mention industry UI and you make comments on relevance?
Face the fact that if you wanted this type of gameplay so bad there was absolutely nothing stopping you from doing something to generate it. You stopped you from creating this content as you mentioned years ago. |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
295
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 21:22:00 -
[810] - Quote
Raquel Rova wrote:Seems to me like that example wouldn't be popular because of the effort involved. So why do you deserve something you are unwilling to work for?
And if the mechanics are making it nearly impossible to run this kind of content absolutely no changes should be made to support it because "sandbox purity"? How many people is it going to take to secure a system to do this?
Your arguing to keep it unfeasible and difficult to run tournaments.
|
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 21:24:00 -
[811] - Quote
Raquel Rova wrote:Because the purpose of nullsec was always fair fights right. Once again you depart down the road of attempting to discredit any possible opposition by injecting the ideas of industry UI and such. In fact you are the only one to mention industry UI and you make comments on relevance?
Face the fact that if you wanted this type of gameplay so bad there was absolutely nothing stopping you from doing something to generate it. You stopped you from creating this content as you mentioned years ago.
I'm talking about sov grind changes coming to the game, if you don't know (and again, you should research your subject) nullsec people are complaining that sov mechanics are stupid, CCP is listening.
BUT, the sov mechanics are only stupid because people are "metagaming" them, nothing is stopping nullsec people to play the game as intended so CCP shouldn't change anything?
Same for the industry changes, we went from a tedious UI to a nice and streamlined UI.
I don't see why I would have to gimp my gameplay and add tedious unfun steps just because you don't like it, I'm not here to please you. I have a Ph.D |
Raquel Rova
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 21:25:00 -
[812] - Quote
Toriessian wrote:Raquel Rova wrote:Seems to me like that example wouldn't be popular because of the effort involved. So why do you deserve something you are unwilling to work for? And if the mechanics are making it nearly impossible to run this kind of content absolutely no changes should be made to support it because "sandbox purity"? How many people is it going to take to secure a system to do this? Your arguing to keep it unfeasible and difficult to run tournaments.
As of right now, there are 106 pilots in singularity. Crazy thought of how hard it is to secure empty systems
Bamboozlement wrote:I'm talking about sov grind changes coming to the game, if you don't know (and again, you should research your subject) nullsec people are complaining that sov mechanics are stupid, CCP is listening.
BUT, the sov mechanics are only stupid because people are "metagaming" them, nothing is stopping nullsec people to play the game as intended so CCP shouldn't change anything?
Same for the industry changes, we went from a tedious UI to a nice and streamlined UI.
I don't see why I would have to gimp my gameplay and add tedious unfun steps just because you don't like it, I'm not here to please you.
Noone is forcing you to organize a tourney, you and others would be imposing this on yourselves, for something you want. Kinda like how everyone else works for things in eve. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 21:28:00 -
[813] - Quote
Raquel Rova wrote:They stopped listening to us with incarna too, that worked well. Once again your injecting your own suppositions onto others logical fallacy Edit: For the record: I have no opinion on Industy UI I support changes to sov null
You are implying that changes like that are bad for the game, despite factual data disproving you, that's my point.
I hope you're not implying that CCP shouldn't add dojos because of the incarna pay2win fiasco.
You support changes to sov null, I don't like sov null but I won't complain to CCP that you shouldn't have a less tedious sov grind. I have a Ph.D |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 21:29:00 -
[814] - Quote
Raquel Rova wrote: As of right now, there are 106 pilots in singularity. Crazy thought of how hard it is to secure empty systems
Having mods/pods/boundary violations checks is a lot of work, it's not just about getting an empty systems.
Why do we have to gimp our gameplay just for you? Try to make sense please. I have a Ph.D |
Raquel Rova
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 21:31:00 -
[815] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Raquel Rova wrote: As of right now, there are 106 pilots in singularity. Crazy thought of how hard it is to secure empty systems
Having mods/pods/boundary violations checks is a lot of work, it's not just about getting an empty systems. Why do we have to gimp our gameplay just for you? Try to make sense please.
This is clearly not for me, as im irrelevant right?
Its for you, either its worth it so you could make it happen, or not.
Entirely your responsibility of satisfying your own needs |
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2361
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 21:31:00 -
[816] - Quote
Thread temp locked.
/me fetches broom... ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2361
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 21:58:00 -
[817] - Quote
First of, please keep in mind that this concept of a feature, a prototype, is only for testing purposes running on what could be described as the test server for the test server for TQ! It's good to have early feedback on such things as this imho, as many things can change. Design, concept, etcetera. If it gets ever implemented at all that is.
So please feel free to discuss this, but do so in a civil manner!
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. The Rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
Thread re-opened. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Paranoid Loyd
1987
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 22:02:00 -
[818] - Quote
In after housekeeping. Mmm, smells fresh. "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 22:13:00 -
[819] - Quote
Raquel Rova wrote: Noone is forcing you to organize a tourney, you and others would be imposing this on yourselves, for something you want. Kinda like how everyone else works for things in eve.
Using the same logic : Noone is forcing you to go to nullsec and get sov, you and others would be imposing this on yourselves, for something you want. Kinda like how everyone else works for things in eve, so CCP shouldn't change anything to sov grind and make it less tedious.
Same for POS management, or anything that need a change.
Eve is obviously not a videogame everything should be tedious and clunky. /s I have a Ph.D |
Raquel Rova
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 22:22:00 -
[820] - Quote
Non of these generate a deadspace pocket unable to be warped to, or teleport you to them. Non of these proposals are contrary to the ability for you to be a target of an unbalanced fight. My example simply invalidates the "need" for such a system because we have clearly established it is not a function of weather these could be done or not, that they are not worth it for those interested to do it. |
|
Sturm Gewehr
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
46
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 22:24:00 -
[821] - Quote
Raquel Rova wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:Toriessian wrote:Raquel Rova wrote:well i didn't think so before. What about this could you not do before given the proper motivation? Control which ships are stocked in the Dojo? Prevent neutral logi? Just first thoughts. Add to that OGB links, implants check, boundary violation check, modules check, etc Ok, soo... you couldn't have a ref/organizing party organizing a tourney in a test server under pre dojo conditions? Require all participants to join the organizing corp in the test server, the ceo or others with sufficient rights to look through the assets of the participants ensuring a compliance with fits. Have them set their clone to the station of the event at the time there of, have them undock and pod them. Have refs/organizers with a few long range alpha ships configured to blap at whatever exceeds given boundary the organizers set (eg: sit in the middle, whack anything to exceed 100km). And simply disqualify any that break the rules of underhanded logi or OGB's. If you see someone whos not supposed to be there simply pause the match or run another one. It would be up to the organizers to pick a system remote enough to be unlikely to bump into. Any players you find that consistantly screw with the tourney can be handled by your community with a simple black list. This example has a way of dealing with: +OGB's +Neutral logi +implant verification +boundary violations +module verification +ship verification As I said, this would be done on a test server not requiring the actual investment in ships and modules, and under more lab like conditions. other players can still put forth the effort to screw with you if they like, but without real killmails and no purposeful repercussions aside from harvesting frustration, there are more meaningful ways of screwing with folk in the live server where loss matters. The organizers could set up what ever incentive policy they like to attract participants and fund their operations. Not to mention stream for spectators to enjoy. If you put half as much effort into trying to solve the situation your self as you do backing a mechanic to do if for you with less options, you could have done something like this long ago. Especially since you speak for so much of the community and have been longing for this content for years. So please, explain how you could not attempt a totally emergent tournament offering complete player control.
First issue is that it is now on the test server, not the live server. There are players who want arena/tournament style content on the live server, currently the only solution is CCP employees donating their free time. I don't understand the stance of trying to push players onto the test server so that there is more content on the live server? Sure you can't warp to the arena but you can stop the arena's from happening. You can force fights and cause potentially billions of isk in damage, dojos have the potential to bring content to more than just the participants.
Also people do put in the effort for this, top AT teams put in thousands of hours of practice on the test servers for sometimes less than an hour of actual combat time on the live server. Players have been doing mock tournament matches for years in preparation. CCP has to give assigned systems to prevent these practices from being tampered with, could you imagine trying to host a tournament when anybody can hop onto the test server and interrupt the entire tournament?
Next, every single one of your examples is gameable, ineffective or a horrible time sink. Your solution is to have as many if not more people regulating the matches than actually participating. Imagine a sov fight where you have 600 pilots fighting but 2000 pilots making sure people are following arbitrary made up mechanics, and then when people don't play by the rules you tell them to "go away".
A lot of the players who have been pushing this idea forward for years now have put titanic amounts of effort into tournament style pvp in the sad state it exists in Eve. It has been pushed to its limits given what little tools we have been given. We have been asking for help because it just isn't viable for us to do on our own.
If you think you can have actual, truly competitive arena/tournament style pvp without in game mechanics you are horribly mistaken, players just cannot replicate the edge of glory, reverse tidi, etc.
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 22:30:00 -
[822] - Quote
Raquel Rova wrote:Non of these generate a deadspace pocket unable to be warped to, or teleport you to them. Non of these proposals are contrary to the ability for you to be a target of an unbalanced fight. My example simply invalidates the "need" for such a system because we have clearly established it is not a function of weather these tournaments could be established or not, that they are not worth it for those interested to do it.
Because having a deadspace pocket is irrelevant to sov grind, of course they don't have the same features it's not the same thing.
Your example isn't a perfect solution, it's a terribly gimped alternative, we have already gimped our gameplay for years thanks for that. I have a Ph.D |
Sturm Gewehr
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
47
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 22:43:00 -
[823] - Quote
Raquel Rova wrote:Non of these generate a deadspace pocket unable to be warped to, or teleport you to them. Non of these proposals are contrary to the ability for you to be a target of an unbalanced fight. My example simply invalidates the "need" for such a system because we have clearly established it is not a function of weather these tournaments could be established or not, that they are not worth it for those interested to do it.
Your example doesn't invalidate anything if anything it proves the point that there needs to be in game mechanics to support arena/tournament gameplay like there is all sorts of "immersion/sandbox/gamebreaking" mechanics in the game to support other styles of play. |
eatingbadies
Sleepless Escorts
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 22:59:00 -
[824] - Quote
I actually just tryed out the dojo on duality, and was unable to get it to work at all. When I accessed the dojo window it shows my dojo and I enter it but am not able to select a fitting even though the dojo is loaded with stuff, and I have the fitting I want saved in my fittings.
How many people have actually logged on to try this, after spending the time to get duality working I see exactly 0 other people on the server =p |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
179
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 00:50:00 -
[825] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:All the talk about scannable dojo, reinforce timer, etc... If only one of you would log in on Duality, he/she would see that the "Dojo" is just a mobile depot with the dojo feature attatched to it. It's a prototype of the dojo function. There actualley are exactly zero facts about its stats. It's a freakin mobile depot with huge cargo. Really people.. so mutch shittalk and anger about nothing. But don't let facts interrupt your discussion. (BTW. This is the first real fact since page 32)
True, but as it exists now, those are the facts about its stats. They may change in the future, they may not. |
Zappity
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
1350
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 01:07:00 -
[826] - Quote
I support this as long as the deployable is destructible without a criminal flag in highsec.
Those who are complaining that this is contrary to the spirit of EVE should also think about B0TLRD. These dojos are basically highsec thunderdomes which, in principle, are exactly what your glorious leaders have chosen to inflict on the game at a much larger scale. Go do something about that if you truly care about the spirit of EVE. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2743
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 01:10:00 -
[827] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I support this as long as the deployable is destructible without a criminal flag in highsec.
Those who are complaining that this is contrary to the spirit of EVE should also think about B0TLRD. These dojos are basically highsec thunderdomes which, in principle, are exactly what your glorious leaders have chosen to inflict on the game at a much larger scale. Go do something about that if you truly care about the spirit of EVE.
Those cursed Accords are about as un-EVE as it gets. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
179
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 01:14:00 -
[828] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Those cursed Accords are about as un-EVE as it gets.
Something players build and agree upon between one another is against the spirit of the sandbox? If you don't like B0TLRD, do something about it. Foment unrest. Engage in covert activities designed to undermine them. Claw your way up the ranks in one of the parties to B0TLRD and then tear them to little pieces.
I dunno, seems to me complaining about something someone else has wrought, rather than actively trying to blow it up, is the un-EVE activity.
|
Zappity
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
1350
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 01:38:00 -
[829] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Those cursed Accords are about as un-EVE as it gets.
Something players build and agree upon between one another is against the spirit of the sandbox? If you don't like B0TLRD, do something about it. Foment unrest. Engage in covert activities designed to undermine them. Claw your way up the ranks in one of the parties to B0TLRD and then tear them to little pieces. I dunno, seems to me complaining about something someone else has wrought, rather than actively trying to blow it up, is the un-EVE activity. Tell yourself that if it makes you feel better. Supporting B0TLRD while complaining about this is hypocritical in the extreme. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
189
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 03:28:00 -
[830] - Quote
Wow!
I think this is a great idea!
The best parts are this:
1. It's small scale pvp: 1v1. So it's not going to replace standard pvp in any significant way. 2. It's not "free". You still have to buy your deployable module and the ships still get blown up. It will positively affect the economy. 3. Allows for totally fair dueling. Easy to run bets with and allows players to test their skill against each other.
I do wonder though, does this have a spectator function? Maybe allow people to watch by placing them in cloaked pods or unfit noob ships. And does the module allow everyone in the system to duel at any time? or is there a way to limit who can use it? Also, when the fight is over, do you have to fly back to station? Or does it automatically take you there? |
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2844
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 03:59:00 -
[831] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:Bienator II wrote:any ETA when connecting to duality will work again? When i want to connect to it the launcher ends up rendering nothing, just a white, empty rectangle.
would like to test it CCP Veritas wrote:Folks can use "/build:828481" instead of "/server:Duality" in the launcher shortcut to patch. Directions should work from that point forward.
Hopefully the stated directions will start working later, but for now that'll workaround. It is working. Use " /build:828481" for launcher shortcut. Let it patch. Use " /server:Duality" for .../bin/exefile.exe shortcut to launch eve.
oh right i didn't know that the exe itself can read arguments, thought it only works with the launcher. Works perfectly, thanks!
eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Condamor
New Eden Job Department
7
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 05:11:00 -
[832] - Quote
EvE online is one of those games that is closer to a sandbox than any of its competition can hope to be. Now as much as reading forum rage is entertaining, it is not at all productive. I have read the 779 posts so far on this topic and seen a few interesting ideas and suggestions. Although I want to say 85% of it is just rage and whining. How about we look at the potential pros and cons of this topic and discuss those so that CCP understands our opinions on this topic and can better weigh the risks/advantages of such a mechanic. Please note that saying it will kill eve online sandbox is not a valid point BE SPECIFIC, address the reason as to why in depth enough so that the other side of the discussion can provide an alternative or be more swayed toward your opinion.
As with anything, there are always advantages and disadvantages. Most if not all of disadvantages or flaws can be fixed or avoided with a bit of work.
I agree that an unscannable deadspace pocket is flawed, and tbh it wouldn't be fun at all. I would love to be able to watch these fights and to bet on them. Now the idea has been suggested that it be like a POS bubble but those inside can fight and those outside cannot. The purpose of this would be to prevent outside aid from interfering (remote repair fleets for example), and it should prevent fleet boosts from working. This would effectively level the playing field enough so that it comes down to the players' skill, fits, and implants. Now people are arguing that "well if I can't lock you and shoot you it's against the EVE" well to this I say yes and no. I can see all sorts of potential shiny and loots behind a pos shield but I can't shoot at it unless I take down the POS, or furthermore all those people who ship spin all day long as they horde iskies. Now I'm not against ship spinning as a pastime, but saying Dojos are going to kill EvE or the sandbox, is like saying you are mortally wounded from a paper cut. What this could do is offer an opportunity for fresh PvP pilots to get the feet wet and get a little experience so they can be a little better equipped for High sec PvP (war decs) and Low sec (Piracy), I leave out null because its a whole different ball game out there. Who I see being affected by this the most are those people that do duel bait, the ones who call in logi and use maxed out boosts off grid to get kills. There are a few people who honor the concept of a true 1v1, this system could truly test a pilot's skill and mettle.
Somebody mentioned this being a simulator and or being solely in station, perhaps instead it become something you can warp to like a celestial body or a POCO (CCP can come up with something clever for it) so that people can view the fight and enjoy the spectacle. Secondly everything on tranquility should be subject to destruction so a simulator is not a good idea, if somebody wants to test a fit without losing isk or reputation try singularity. Destruction is one of the driving forces in this game, even if nobody lost ships and just shot at rats all day you still are destroying something and creating a demand for ammunition. Any time I PvP in EvE I get an adrenaline rush because there is that feeling that I could lose the ship that I am in and I don't know how the battle will turn out. Anybody in a corp or alliance together have a certain code and trust that you can do a 1v1 easily, but what this will do is allow two random people to engage each other with no interference from outsiders. Granted I see this system is better suited for High sec because anywhere else you can shoot with no interference from the popo. One of the two people fighting in the Dojo should lose a ship yes, and yes they should need to undock and find their own way to the Dojo. Most people understand losing ships, losing ships because your opponent has loki boosts and guardians is what upsets people.
If they implement this correctly this could have an unprecedented effect on the EvE universe whether it is good or bad is a matter of whose side you are on but its not gonna destroy the "sandbox." When you lose ships you need money to replace them and for most people that means undocking thus making them prone to suicide gankers or war targets. There are some really easy solutions to most of the points brought up against it. You can complain about how wrong it is all you want but if all you do is rage and yell at each other then nobody is going to take you seriously. |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1530
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 05:16:00 -
[833] - Quote
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
I do wonder though, does this have a spectator function? Maybe allow people to watch by placing them in cloaked pods or unfit noob ships.
If only Eve was compatible with twitch. Then anybody could watch.
oh, wait
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
eatingbadies
Sleepless Escorts
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 05:42:00 -
[834] - Quote
I really like the idea of a 125km POS type arena that you could warp to and spectate(or fight each other), with the combatants maybe spawned in or warping in from a pos somewhere.
I actually got a dojo battle to work on duality but I can't get the moveme channel to work, so there's no good way to stock it with everything I need... |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
3995
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 07:04:00 -
[835] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Arrendis wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Those cursed Accords are about as un-EVE as it gets.
Something players build and agree upon between one another is against the spirit of the sandbox? If you don't like B0TLRD, do something about it. Foment unrest. Engage in covert activities designed to undermine them. Claw your way up the ranks in one of the parties to B0TLRD and then tear them to little pieces. I dunno, seems to me complaining about something someone else has wrought, rather than actively trying to blow it up, is the un-EVE activity. Tell yourself that if it makes you feel better. Supporting B0TLRD while complaining about this is hypocritical in the extreme. a player-crafted and player-enforced organisation and a mechanically-enforced system are pretty obviously different concepts regardless of one's opinion on the dojo |
Captain Semper
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
52
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 07:25:00 -
[836] - Quote
I hope this is a joke. CCP realy want add arenas in SANDBOX? With no outside effect?!
So tell me plz, why ppl should fly at 0sec after this change? Here world of space ship come... Button "to battle" become reality.
CCP if you like sandbox, dont ruin it with arenas and battlegrounds! |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 11:33:00 -
[837] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I support this as long as the deployable is destructible without a criminal flag in highsec.
Those who are complaining that this is contrary to the spirit of EVE should also think about B0TLRD. These dojos are basically highsec thunderdomes which, in principle, are exactly what your glorious leaders have chosen to inflict on the game at a much larger scale. Go do something about that if you truly care about the spirit of EVE.
What you mean by the spirit of EVE, competitive and consensual pvp exist in EVE since 2005 and since it's a sandbox there is no lesser gameplay?
Are you comparing AT participants to the nullsec blue donut?
And what's the point if there is no criminal flag, how can we defend against you? See if you go suspect it's interesting for everyone, you get content, I get content but I'm not surprised to see a "true EVE player" that know the true xXx"SPIRIT OF EVE"xXx yet again ask for risk averse pew pew.
How ironic. I have a Ph.D |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 11:40:00 -
[838] - Quote
Captain Semper wrote:I hope this is a joke. CCP realy want add arenas in SANDBOX? With no outside effect?!
So tell me plz, why ppl should fly at 0sec after this change? Here world of space ship come... Button "to battle" become reality.
CCP if you like sandbox, dont ruin it with arenas and battlegrounds!
Why do you fly in nullsec and not lowsec or even highsec? The appeal of nullsec is unique; have your OWN part of space, your name on the map, a space to afk rat in your ishtar, a moon goo network, etc
Dojos won't remove any of this, not only that but it's 5min timer you can join at any time it won't destroy the rest of your gameplay.
I don't understand your thought process (or lack thereof). I have a Ph.D |
Noriko Mai
1539
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 12:34:00 -
[839] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Noriko Mai wrote:All the talk about scannable dojo, reinforce timer, etc... If only one of you would log in on Duality, he/she would see that the "Dojo" is just a mobile depot with the dojo feature attatched to it. It's a prototype of the dojo function. There actualley are exactly zero facts about its stats. It's a freakin mobile depot with huge cargo. Really people.. so mutch shittalk and anger about nothing. But don't let facts interrupt your discussion. (BTW. This is the first real fact since page 32) True, but as it exists now, those are the facts about its stats. They may change in the future, they may not. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVfkYZmXHAg -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
Dreksl
Screaming Hayabusa Neo-Bushido Movement
5
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 12:49:00 -
[840] - Quote
There was once a dream that was Heild.
|
|
Rin Valador
Dark Horizon Logistics and Intelligence
134
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 14:18:00 -
[841] - Quote
Terrible. Scrap it.
"There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe." - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10 |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 14:57:00 -
[842] - Quote
Rin Valador wrote:Terrible. Scrap it.
Good arguments. I have a Ph.D |
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society Affirmative.
353
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 15:05:00 -
[843] - Quote
Overview of former and present CSM quotes/opinions on this:
"This is the most eve-like implementation of "structured fights" that you can possibly get, and it's awesome." - mynnna, CSM 8+9, CFC/Nullsec
"I cannot wait to see this on TQ."-º - Xander Phoena, CSM 9, CFC/Nullsec
"This has a considerable amount of promise" - Mangala Solaris, CSM 8+9, RvB/Hisec
"I like the idea . . . in case you cannot tell but I like something even MORE CCP is floating an idea past you without promises, without fanfair, without you all signing an NDA" - Mike Azariah, CSM 8+9, RP/Hisec/Incursions
"It's a way to let people have consensual fights in a place where loss is meaningful. " - Steve Ronuken, CSM 9, Fuzzworks/Industry
"sounds neat" - Sala Cameron, CSM 8, PL/Nullsec
"I think this is great, as long as actual ships are lost when things blow up, I am totally fine with it" - Two step, CSM 6+7, NOHO/Wspace
|
Chirality Tisteloin
Zervas Aeronautics
40
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 15:20:00 -
[844] - Quote
I am trying this on duality. But when I select in the dropdown my stocked Dojo and click on "Select Dojo" nothing happens Anyone else got this problem? See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/ |
Chirality Tisteloin
Zervas Aeronautics
40
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 15:23:00 -
[845] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Erutpar Ambient wrote:
I do wonder though, does this have a spectator function? Maybe allow people to watch by placing them in cloaked pods or unfit noob ships.
If only Eve was compatible with twitch. Then anybody could watch. oh, wait m
No no, Mike. It is not about players watching. It is about characters watching. Yes there is twitch obvioulsy. But what if we could make people undock to watch? For example by letting them push the red button of boundary violation ;) See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/ |
Chirality Tisteloin
Zervas Aeronautics
40
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 15:36:00 -
[846] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:There are still a lot of questions so I try to summarize what I know.
- Just a mobile depot with a new function. CCP Veritas already said it's easier to take already existing stuff and modify it a little to get a somehow functional prototype. I don't think any stat of that structure has any relevance at the moment.
You deploy that thing and put a lot of ships and modules in it.
- Select 'Busisness' > 'Calculator' from Neocom (yes it's a Prototype).
- A new window opens where you can select the dojo you want to use. All dojo in system are accessible. Select Dojo of your choice. [img]
- A new window opens where you see the Charges, Ships and Modules in that dojo, all your saved fitting, a small are with your name and status. [img]
- If you have a fitting that can completely be fitted with stuf in that dojo it is shown as available.
- Select fitting, click ready and wait.
- Someone else joins the same dojo, selcts a fitting and clicks ready.
- You both are teleported from station (Doesn't work from space. Both participants must be in a station or bad bugs happen, because of prototype) to a random (every time new) deadspace pocket somewhere in the solar systen. Both sit at 0km on a beacon in that pocket (again, because prototype)
- A new window opens with a 45 second timer (warm up). No one can move, but you can activate modules. You can leave your ship, but your pod can't move either. You can board you ship again. (Please don't ask about MJD and stuff, it's a prototype and not a balanced and tested feature) (You can **** around a little bit with logging out and stuff, but this are just some exploits that have no meaning to the feature itself)
- Everyone reloads his guns, because the charges of the selected fitting are in your cargo.
- 45 seconds are over a new 5 minutes timer starts.
- Fight begins. You can move and can lock your target (wasn't possible while warm up).
- Flying >125km away from the beacon makes your ship go boom and you lose -> Match ends. Losing makes your ship go boom and you lose -> Match ends. Winning makes the enemy go boom and you win -> Match ends. Waiting for the 5min timer make both go boom -> Match ends.
- The match result itself has absolutally no meaning at the moment. The match just ends and everyone wakes up in his old original clone in station.
- The deadspace pocket disappears immideatelly after the match ends. So making a bookmark and warping to it gives you a safespot and nothing more. No beacon, no wreack, nothing there.
- Warping to a someone in your fleet who is in a fight a deadspace pocket, warps you to the dojo.
- Stats of the dojo doesn't matter, because it' just a mobile depot with a bazzilion of m3 to make the prototype work
- As mentioned above, there are a lot of ways to exploit that prototype. It may be because it's a prototype, who knows...
I hope it can clear up some confusion about the state and implementation of this prototype (not feature). It's interesting how a lot of people here don't know how it works, didn't try it on duality and don't understand what the word 'prototype' means, but still are throwing tantrum like bonkers.
Nice Info! I am trying it on Duality but I don't get the macth-making screen to open. Anything you experienced that I might need to do? My dojo is stocked.
Cheers, Chira.
See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/ |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2473
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 15:49:00 -
[847] - Quote
If these ever hit TQ, they should be for Corp/Alliance tournaments only and be on a semi-annual distribution schedule. Using the same restrictions as alliance logos, should cost about 5 plex and last one week. - |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 16:29:00 -
[848] - Quote
Sierra Payne wrote:
Honestly I see it like the following,
What happens when you're a new player with no experience in PVP yet you want to learn how to be more effective at flying your ships. Your friend invites you to the dojo so that you can practice a bit more before heading out into the wild and PVP properly against all kind of matchups. Suddenly the quality of pilots rises because they learned better how to fly, making your PVP life more challenging and exciting.
Win/Win across the board, provided it's implemented with no rewards or benefits to other people.
Yeah in the same way doing karate on a saturday prepares you for a riot after a foot ball match...
please not on TQ. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 16:32:00 -
[849] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:If these ever hit TQ, they should be for Corp/Alliance tournaments only and be on a semi-annual distribution schedule. Using the same restrictions as alliance logos, should cost about 5 plex and last one week.
Yep CCP should add insane restrictions to this because you don't like it. I have a Ph.D |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 16:36:00 -
[850] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Yeah in the same way doing karate on a saturday prepares you for a riot after a foot ball match... please not on TQ.
You are implying that PVP in eve is always equal to a riot after a football match, which is wrong.
Even if it was the case, learning to control your ship and becoming good at stuff like manual piloting, slingshoting etc might save you someday.
I know it might be hard to understand if all you do is log in to jump to a cyno and press F1 but try to focus. I have a Ph.D |
|
Kasarch
Surreal corp The Afterlife.
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 16:47:00 -
[851] - Quote
Arenas? Are you seriously? When you split eve cluster to different instances? Also you need to remove space travels and make button "Fight" like in world of tanks. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 16:54:00 -
[852] - Quote
Kasarch wrote:Arenas? Are you seriously? When you split eve cluster to different instances? Also you need to remove space travels and make button "Fight" like in world of tanks.
You shouldn't use logical fallacies if you want people to take you seriously : https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
Try to make logical and compelling arguments against dojos.
Good luck with that. I have a Ph.D |
Josef Djugashvilis
2540
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 17:30:00 -
[853] - Quote
Dear Bamboozled, you might try to respect the fact that many of the folk posting in this thread simply do not like the idea of special snowflakepvp arenas on TQ.
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but simply spamming this thread is not best way to support your support for special snow flake pvp arenas.
Keep them on SiSi or a new special snow flake pvp arena server and all will be fine. This is not a signature. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 17:44:00 -
[854] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear Bamboozled, you might try to respect the fact that many of the folk posting in this thread simply do not like the idea of special snowflakepvp arenas on TQ.
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but simply spamming this thread is not best way to support your support for special snow flake pvp arenas.
Keep them on SiSi or a new special snow flake pvp arena server and all will be fine.
There is a difference between having an opinion and posting poor, unresearched posts full of logical fallacies.
You have something against dojos? You think CCP shouldn't implement them? Fine, but use logical and compelling arguments instead of leveraging fear with doom and gloom comments.
I wouldn't have to come here and highlight poor posting from people that dislike consensual pvp out of self-entitlement and common misconceptions about what is eve.
This is what you can do in Eve Online consensual pvp in eve exist since 2005, solo pvp videos and AT/NEO stream are popular, you don't like consensual pvp? Good for you, but it's part of the sandbox and it's not "un-eve" just because in your eyes "your way to play is the only way to play".
Ironically, eve is all about risk vs reward a lot of people posting against dojos are extremely risk-averse.
Please try to focus. I have a Ph.D |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13363
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 17:50:00 -
[855] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear Bamboozled, you might try to respect the fact that many of the folk posting in this thread simply do not like the idea of special snowflakepvp arenas on TQ.
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but simply spamming this thread is not best way to support your support for special snow flake pvp arenas.
Keep them on SiSi or a new special snow flake pvp arena server and all will be fine. There is a difference between having an opinion and posting poor, unresearched posts full of logical fallacies. You have something against dojos? You think CCP shouldn't implement them? Fine, but use logical and compelling arguments instead of leveraging fear with doom and gloom comments. I wouldn't have to come here and highlight poor posting from people that dislike consensual pvp out of self-entitlement and common misconceptions about what is eve. This is what you can do in Eve Online consensual pvp in eve exist since 2005, solo pvp videos and AT/NEO stream are popular, you don't like consensual pvp? Good for you, but it's part of the sandbox and it's not "un-eve" just because in your eyes "your way to play is the only way to play". Ironically, eve is all about risk vs reward a lot of people posting against dojos are extremely risk-averse. Please try to focus.
AT is not part of the sandbox, they are a stand alone event hosted by CCP in space we have no access to using tools have had no access to. There has never been any point in the last 14 years in which we have had consensual PvP on Tranq. The only people looking for risk free PvP are people who want to lock out everyone else from their honourable PvP 1v1 matches. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1535
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:01:00 -
[856] - Quote
See, I thought sisi WAS the special snowflake fight place, to try new things out. No risk of loss, no worries, just shoot.
This dojo has a cost, the ships inside would be bought and paid for, all of that is at risk. The cost would have to be made up in other ways so players would still have to go out into the great big space and earn/find it. This is not an isolating mechanism but something that may convince people to play again.
If it ever went live I would see 3rd party ladders and betting spring up. Bush leagues and sandlot games.
Recreational softball does not hurt the Major leagues. A small dojo is not going to hurt Eve. I honestly am having difficulty seeing the issues the opponents of this prototype are worried about. That, in itself, worries me because usually I can see things from the other side.
Risk? It is there Abuse of a safe spot? For 5 minutes then boom Will take all the PvP fun from our space? See next line Is just for carebears who want to be safe? Well then you are teaching them to take acceptable (to them) risks. It goes against the Basic Principles of Eve? Dad taught me never to argue religion with strangers.
Can someone lay aside the rhtoric and explain to me exactly HOW this would break Eve if it ever came to pass? Can the rest of you calm down as this is a prototype . . .
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Josef Djugashvilis
2540
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:02:00 -
[857] - Quote
Dear Baltec 1, troubled times make for strange friends.
Your post above pretty much sums up what is so very, very wrong with special snow flake pvp on TQ. This is not a signature. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:03:00 -
[858] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: AT is not part of the sandbox, they are a stand alone event hosted by CCP in space we have no access to using tools have had no access to. There has never been any point in the last 14 years in which we have had consensual PvP on Tranq. The only people looking for risk free PvP are people who want to lock out everyone else from their honourable PvP 1v1 matches.
They started being hosted by CCP for technical reasons, dojos should make it easy for us (players) to run our own tournaments. If you think eve never had consensual pvp then you should research your subject, maybe join the bringing solo back channel, or look at player run tournaments/duels.
I bet you also cry that you can't blob the AT teams.
Factual data that disprove your post : http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/caldari-championships-the-first-day/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLsZPl9lYIQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5yIRU7-794
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4057108
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=373886
And more...
Please, research your subject before posting. I have a Ph.D |
Josef Djugashvilis
2540
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:05:00 -
[859] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:See, I thought sisi WAS the special snowflake fight place, to try new things out. No risk of loss, no worries, just shoot.
This dojo has a cost, the ships inside would be bought and paid for, all of that is at risk. The cost would have to be made up in other ways so players would still have to go out into the great big space and earn/find it. This is not an isolating mechanism but something that may convince people to play again.
If it ever went live I would see 3rd party ladders and betting spring up. Bush leagues and sandlot games.
Recreational softball does not hurt the Major leagues. A small dojo is not going to hurt Eve. I honestly am having difficulty seeing the issues the opponents of this prototype are worried about. That, in itself, worries me because usually I can see things from the other side.
Risk? It is there Abuse of a safe spot? For 5 minutes then boom Will take all the PvP fun from our space? See next line Is just for carebears who want to be safe? Well then you are teaching them to take acceptable (to them) risks. It goes against the Basic Principles of Eve? Dad taught me never to argue religion with strangers.
Can someone lay aside the rhtoric and explain to me exactly HOW this would break Eve if it ever came to pass? Can the rest of you calm down as this is a prototype . . .
m
Keep it on SiSi and there is no problem.
Big leagues, little leagues, middle leagues, so long as it never comes to TQ, have fun. This is not a signature. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:08:00 -
[860] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote: Keep it on SiSi and there is no problem.
Big leagues, little leagues, middle leagues, so long as it never comes to TQ, have fun.
You didn't not post a single valid argument about why it shouldn't come to TQ.
Please feel free to reply to my last post to you, I'll wait for your reply.
I have a Ph.D |
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13364
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:09:00 -
[861] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:
Can someone lay aside the rhtoric and explain to me exactly HOW this would break Eve if it ever came to pass? Can the rest of you calm down as this is a prototype . . .
m
No MMO has ever managed to add arena PvP and not have it have a disastrous effect upon the wider world PvP. The reason why many are very anti arena is because we have been through all of this before. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13364
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:11:00 -
[862] - Quote
Please post the mechanic that is on tranq right now or at any point in the last 14 years that is both available to everyone and stops others from interacting with you while your are in space and in combat with another player. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:17:00 -
[863] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Please post the mechanic that is on tranq right now or at any point in the last 14 years that is both available to everyone and stops others from interacting with you while your are in space and in combat with another player.
Please do not use logical fallacies against me : https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/loaded-question
You made a statement : consensual pvp doesn't exist in eve, I proved you wrong with publicly available factual data and you answer back with a logical fallacy?
Please try to focus.
I have a Ph.D |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13364
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:21:00 -
[864] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: Please post the mechanic that is on tranq right now or at any point in the last 14 years that is both available to everyone and stops others from interacting with you while your are in space and in combat with another player.
Please do not use logical fallacies against me : https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/loaded-questionYou made a statement : consensual pvp doesn't exist in eve, I proved you wrong with publicly available factual data and you answer back with a logical fallacy? Please try to focus.
Yea you did no such thing and throwing around phases such as "logical fallacies" does nothing to back up your argument. Its a very simple questions that is easily answered, the fact that you cannot just shows that you are just wasting everyone's time. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:23:00 -
[865] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: No MMO has ever managed to add arena PvP and not have it have a disastrous effect upon the wider world PvP. The reason why many are very anti arena is because we have been through all of this before.
It's a terrible analogy considering in eve online there is an incentive to go to the"open world", literally 90% of the game is in the open world.
Dojos won't magically remove :
- FW
- Exploration
- Corp roams
- Defending your sov
- Hauling
- PI
- Big wars in nullsec
- Solo pvp against the odds
- Baiting/Blobbing
Terrible doom and gloom comment and logcial fallacy ; "eve will die if you don't agree with me" I have a Ph.D |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:27:00 -
[866] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Yea you did no such thing and throwing around phases such as "logical fallacies" does nothing to back up your argument. Its a very simple questions that is easily answered, the fact that you cannot just shows that you are just wasting everyone's time.
I think you should read the link I sent you.
You said, let me quote :
baltec1 wrote: There has never been any point in the last 14 years in which we have had consensual PvP on Tranq.
I then gave you factual data of people having consensual pvp in TQ since 2005 proving you wrong:
Please focus, thank you mate.
I have a Ph.D |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1537
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:28:00 -
[867] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Please post the mechanic that is on tranq right now or at any point in the last 14 years that is both available to everyone and stops others from interacting with you while your are in space and in combat with another player.
When certain ships were unprobeable (before being patched) they could duel safely in any safespot without fear of interuption.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:37:00 -
[868] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote: This dojo has a cost, the ships inside would be bought and paid for, all of that is at risk.
Yes, but you see, a dojo doesn't provide "tears" or provide any form of sick entertainment for these folks, so it's not acceptable.
|
StarRoad Trucker
Welcome to Estonia
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:39:00 -
[869] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Please post the mechanic that is on tranq right now or at any point in the last 14 years that is both available to everyone and stops others from interacting with you while your are in space and in combat with another player.
When certain ships were unprobeable (before being patched) they could duel safely in any safespot without fear of interuption. m
You notice that was changed right? |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
544
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:41:00 -
[870] - Quote
I don't have a problem with the dojo idea, but I worrry about abuse. I have not been on the test server to try it, so perhaps this is not an issue. Let's say I have my dojo deployed in my home system. I try to undock, but a hostile Interdictor bubbles the undock. So, my alt and I undock and activate my dojo. What happens? Do my alt and I warp off to my protected Deadspace pocket? If my alt and I are ratting in the same system and a hostile enters local, can I activate dojo, and warp to a safe spot for the rest of the timer? Or several variations on this theme...
In short, I am concerned that device, if brought to TQ, will be used to avoid nonconsenual PVP. That would be devastating.
If someone wants to be an honorable space samurai and have fixed 1v1 matches, that is fine by me as long as real ships explode and there are still consequences in Eve. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13365
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:42:00 -
[871] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Please post the mechanic that is on tranq right now or at any point in the last 14 years that is both available to everyone and stops others from interacting with you while your are in space and in combat with another player.
When certain ships were unprobeable (before being patched) they could duel safely in any safespot without fear of interuption. m
The fact that this was patched shows that it wasn't intended.
This is the problem people have with this thing if it ever finds its way onto tranq. It will be the first time in EVEs history that a mechanic was put into the game with the intention of it stopping others from interacting with you while you are in space. Its a massive change of direction for EVE and one many are not comfortable with. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13365
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:44:00 -
[872] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:I don't have a problem with the dojo idea, but I worrry about abuse. I have not been on the test server to try it, so perhaps this is not an issue. Let's say I have my dojo deployed in my home system. I try to undock, but a hostile Interdictor bubbles the undock. So, my alt and I undock and activate my dojo. What happens? Do my alt and I warp off to my protected Deadspace pocket? If my alt and I are ratting in the same system and a hostile enters local, do I warp to a safe spot for the rest of the timer? Or several variations on this theme...
In short, I am concerned that device, if brought to TQ, will be used to avoid nonconsenual PVP. That would be devastating.
If someone wants to be an honorable space samurai and have fixed 1v1 matches, that is fine by me as long as real ships explode and there are still consequences in Eve.
You would be able to grab a D-scan of the area without having to undock into a station camp. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:44:00 -
[873] - Quote
Regnag Leppod wrote:Mike Azariah wrote: This dojo has a cost, the ships inside would be bought and paid for, all of that is at risk.
Yes, but you see, a dojo doesn't provide "tears" or provide any form of sick entertainment for these folks, so it's not acceptable.
Bingo, and remember that eve will die if you don't agree with them !!!
StarRoad Trucker wrote: You notice that was changed right?
He asked him a (stupid) question he gave him an answer.
Not only that but that's not even relevant, that's like saying "CCP shouldn't have updated the industry UI because we had no nice industry UI in 14 years".
I have a Ph.D |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13365
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:47:00 -
[874] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: Yea you did no such thing and throwing around phases such as "logical fallacies" does nothing to back up your argument. Its a very simple questions that is easily answered, the fact that you cannot just shows that you are just wasting everyone's time.
I think you should read the link I sent you. You said, let me quote : baltec1 wrote: There has never been any point in the last 14 years in which we have had consensual PvP on Tranq.
I then gave you factual data of people having consensual pvp in TQ since 2005 proving you wrong: Please focus, thank you mate.
The first link was to an event I believe was run by CCP in space we cannot access, in which case they teleported people there. These things are not available to anyone other than CCP. If not then it took place in space in which I could have attacked them at any point.
The other links all involve areas in which I can interact with them against their will while they PvP. You have provided no evidence to back up your claim. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Noriko Mai
1540
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:48:00 -
[875] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:I don't have a problem with the dojo idea, but I worrry about abuse. I have not been on the test server to try it, so perhaps this is not an issue. Let's say I have my dojo deployed in my home system. I try to undock, but a hostile Interdictor bubbles the undock. So, my alt and I undock and activate my dojo. What happens? Do my alt and I warp off to my protected Deadspace pocket? If my alt and I are ratting in the same system and a hostile enters local, do I warp to a safe spot for the rest of the timer? Or several variations on this theme...
In short, I am concerned that device, if brought to TQ, will be used to avoid nonconsenual PVP. That would be devastating.
If someone wants to be an honorable space samurai and have fixed 1v1 matches, that is fine by me as long as real ships explode and there are still consequences in Eve. You would be able to grab a D-scan of the area without having to undock into a station camp. If you are lucky and pocket is <14AU from station. And if you are lucky and ccp will release this prototype as is without any changes... -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
Noriko Mai
1540
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:49:00 -
[876] - Quote
f u c k this forums -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
Noriko Mai
1540
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:50:00 -
[877] - Quote
argh -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13365
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:52:00 -
[878] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:f u c k this forums
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 18:53:00 -
[879] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: The first link was to an event I believe was run by CCP in space was cannot access, inwhich case they teleported people there. These things are not available to anyone other than CCP. If not then it took place in space in which I could have attacked them at any point.
The other links all involve areas in which I can interact with them against their will while they PvP. You have provided no evidence to back up your claim.
Are you trolling? It is consensual pvp they both agreed to fight under some conditions (ship size, location, maybe timers?)
This is a joke right? I have a Ph.D |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13365
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:06:00 -
[880] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: The first link was to an event I believe was run by CCP in space was cannot access, inwhich case they teleported people there. These things are not available to anyone other than CCP. If not then it took place in space in which I could have attacked them at any point.
The other links all involve areas in which I can interact with them against their will while they PvP. You have provided no evidence to back up your claim.
Are you trolling? It is consensual pvp they both agreed to fight under some conditions (ship size, location, maybe timers?) This is a joke right?
This seems to be a case of either you trolling or you not understanding what others are sying.
When we talk about consensual PvP we are not talking about what two people decide we are talking about the the whole game. Consensual PvP is when there are mechanics in place that stops others from interacting with you while you run your 1v1. EVE has never has such a mechanic in it before and it is this mechanic that people are against. We don't care if you want to organise a 1v1 with someone we just care about a mechanic being put in place that stops us from interacting with you while you are doing it. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1538
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:18:00 -
[881] - Quote
You asked for an example and I provided one.
Your counter was that the example was patched.
By that line of reasoning IF the Dojo was put in place and it was seen to be counter to the games purposes and play then it would be patched. Your faith in Eve and its dev team is appreciated.
Please forward a new objection as you have asked and answered this one and I agree with you on the conclusions.
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:19:00 -
[882] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:This seems to be a case of either you trolling or you not understanding what others are sying.
When we talk about consensual PvP we are not talking about what two people decide we are talking about the the whole game. Consensual PvP is when there are mechanics in place that stops others from interacting with you while you run your 1v1. EVE has never has such a mechanic in it before and it is this mechanic that people are against. We don't care if you want to organise a 1v1 with someone we just care about a mechanic being put in place that stops us from interacting with you while you are doing it.
Then your definition of consensual pvp is wrong, don't blame me.
What you are trying to say is that since CCP didn't give an option to players to have fair and competitive pvp till now, they shouldn't implement it.
It's as stupid as saying CCP shouldn't have implemented the new Industry UI because we had no good industry UI for years, despite the need for one.
Competitive and fair pvp exist in eve since 2005, just because it's incompatible by design with a specific gameplay in eve (ganking) doesn't mean CCP should leave it under-designed and clunky.
Using the same logic I can say that CCP shouldn't change sov null because bad and clunky sov null is part of eve, same for POS management and anything that need a change.
Drop your self-entitlement, your way to play eve isn't the only way. I have a Ph.D |
Dave Stark
7001
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:23:00 -
[883] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:You asked for an example and I provided one.
Your counter was that the example was patched.
By that line of reasoning IF the Dojo was put in place and it was seen to be counter to the games purposes and play then it would be patched. Your faith in Eve and its dev team is appreciated.
Please forward a new objection as you have asked and answered this one and I agree with you on the conclusions.
m
faith in the dev team would be that they realise this idea is bad, and it never sees the light of day.
that's faith I'm not sure i have.
while it's nice that they have the tools to create such monstrosities, and the use of those tools should be encouraged... ideas like this should never make it to tq. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13365
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:24:00 -
[884] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote:This seems to be a case of either you trolling or you not understanding what others are sying.
When we talk about consensual PvP we are not talking about what two people decide we are talking about the the whole game. Consensual PvP is when there are mechanics in place that stops others from interacting with you while you run your 1v1. EVE has never has such a mechanic in it before and it is this mechanic that people are against. We don't care if you want to organise a 1v1 with someone we just care about a mechanic being put in place that stops us from interacting with you while you are doing it. Then your definition of consensual pvp is wrong, don't blame me. What you are trying to say is that since CCP didn't give an option to players to have fair and competitive pvp till now, they shouldn't implement it. It's as stupid as saying CCP shouldn't have implemented the new Industry UI because we had no good industry UI for years, despite the need for one. Competitive and fair pvp exist in eve since 2005, just because it's incompatible by design with a specific gameplay in eve (ganking) doesn't mean CCP should leave it under-designed and clunky. Using the same logic I can say that CCP shouldn't change sov null because bad and clunky sov null is part of eve, same for POS management and anything that need a change. Drop your self-entitlement, your way to play eve isn't the only way.
The real irony here is having you demand a sandbox then in the next sentence demand that everyone elses sandbox be take away.
Also please stop telling both lies and trying to compare totally different things to each other. There has never been a mechanic in place that forces "fair" fights in EVE. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13365
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:26:00 -
[885] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:You asked for an example and I provided one.
Your counter was that the example was patched.
By that line of reasoning IF the Dojo was put in place and it was seen to be counter to the games purposes and play then it would be patched. Your faith in Eve and its dev team is appreciated.
Please forward a new objection as you have asked and answered this one and I agree with you on the conclusions.
m
Problem here is that we have seen several things added that had to be patched later after causing a great deal of damage. I would rather not have the damaging things happen in the first place. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:26:00 -
[886] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Yeah in the same way doing karate on a saturday prepares you for a riot after a foot ball match... please not on TQ. You are implying that PVP in eve is always equal to a riot after a football match, which is wrong. Even if it was the case, learning to control your ship and becoming good at stuff like manual piloting, slingshoting etc might save you someday. I know it might be hard to understand if all you do is log in to jump to a cyno and press F1 but try to focus.
no its the difference between rules and no rules, fair fights and one sided fights.
one requires sheer piloting skills, the other takes that as well as awareness of environments and what your up against.
they are both completely different and one doesnt prepare you for the other at all except reminding you to overheat apparently.
calm yourself.
Bamboozlement wrote:What you are trying to say is that since CCP didn't give an option to players to have fair and competitive pvp till now, they shouldn't implement it.
on TQ...
everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:32:00 -
[887] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: The real irony here is having you demand a sandbox then in the next sentence demand that everyone elses sandbox be take away.
Also please stop telling both lies and trying to compare totally different things to each other. There has never been a mechanic in place that forces "fair" fights in EVE.
You understand that dojos are destroyable ? You understand that ships will explode ? You understand that ships have to be bought and put in dojos ? You understand that player have to put dojos up ?
Of course you can't interact with the people inside it would be counterproductive since the goal si to provide a competitive and fair environment.
Please try to focus.
I have a Ph.D |
joshua boston
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
12
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:34:00 -
[888] - Quote
I am paying this game to play EVE... not World of Warcraft. Go somewhere else with your arena's aka Dojo. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13365
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:36:00 -
[889] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: The real irony here is having you demand a sandbox then in the next sentence demand that everyone elses sandbox be take away.
Also please stop telling both lies and trying to compare totally different things to each other. There has never been a mechanic in place that forces "fair" fights in EVE.
You understand that dojos are destroyable ? You understand that ships will explode ? You understand that ships have to be bought and put in dojos ? You understand that player have to put dojos up ? Of course you can't interact with the people inside it would be counterproductive since the goal si to provide a competitive and fair environment. Please try to focus.
The goal is for an arena, you can have that without taking away one of the core selling points of EVE from people. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:37:00 -
[890] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:no its the difference between rules and no rules, fair fights and one sided fights. one requires sheer piloting skills, the other takes that as well as awareness of environments and what your up against. they are both completely different and one doesnt prepare you for the other at all except reminding you to overheat apparently. calm yourself.
Are you implying that piloting skills are irrelevant to eve online combat? You can't possibly be serious.
Not only that but dojos would teach you a lot about your engagement profiles and what you can do or can't do against certain type of ships and fits.
Good joke tho.
Daichi Yamato wrote: on TQ...
everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server.
Why do I have to gimp my gameplay and not use TQ just because you don't like it and won't use it?
Using the same logic : is it fair to say to people asking for a better sov null system to go on sisi because fights doesn't matter there? I have a Ph.D |
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:48:00 -
[891] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: The goal is for an arena, you can have that without taking away one of the core selling points of EVE from people.
This is your opinion, people don't join eve to gank people, matter of fact a majority of people don't gank especially not when they are new to the game.
Go on the rookie help channel and check how many new players ask how to gank compared to the rest.
Not only that but your logic is flawed; you are implying that people will stop doing :
- FW
- Exploration
- Hauling
- Blobbing
- Corp roams
- Defending their sov
- Bombing
- Hunting
- Running missions
etc
Just because CCP introduced dojos, which is wrong.
Your bias is blinding you and you're posting with a meta-game agenda because this change would mean less gank targets for you if you don't adapt to it.
HTFU like we say in Eve Online. I have a Ph.D |
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:48:00 -
[892] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:
everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server.
So you are okay with multiple shards then? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13365
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:50:00 -
[893] - Quote
Regnag Leppod wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:
everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server.
So you are okay with multiple shards then?
Only when they are test servers. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2745
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:59:00 -
[894] - Quote
So it's okay to have combat where loss is meaningful, and it's okay to have tournaments with structure and enforceable rules, but it's not okay to have tournaments with structure and enforceable rules where loss is meaningful.
The fact that those tournaments can still be messed with doesn't matter because you cannot warp directly to the ships and kill them for your own amusement.
Playstyles A, B, C and D are okay but Playstyle E is not okay because a portion of it is beyond the reach of Playstyle C.
Is that what the problem is? Jesus rollerblading christ, get over yourselves.
|
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 19:59:00 -
[895] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Are you implying that piloting skills are irrelevant to eve online combat? You can't possibly be serious. Not only that but dojos would teach you a lot about your engagement profiles and what you can do or can't do against certain type of ships and fits. Good joke tho.
the joke is the idea that this will teach ppl to fight in the sandbox and you thinking that the skills are completely transferable.
who said skills are irrelevant? What im saying is that a skill disadvantage can be mitigated. And thats not a bad thing. PvP in the sandbox is about more than the 5 minutes you spend shooting eachother.
your only thinking on a tactical level and EVE is much more than that.
Bamboozlement wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote: on TQ...
everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server.
Why do I have to gimp my gameplay and not use TQ just because you don't like it and won't use it? Using the same logic : is it fair to say to people asking for a better sov null system to go on sisi because fights doesn't matter there?
full of strawmans today.
gameplays not gimped. if u want gimmicky PvP with no interruption and special rules you can get that on other servers with no issue.
what becomes gimped is the single shard if these become part of TQ.
id be perfectly fine with them on TQ as long as i can warp in with nado's to grab some shiny officer mods from 'elite' PvPers. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 20:01:00 -
[896] - Quote
Regnag Leppod wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:
everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server.
So you are okay with multiple shards then?
another person trying to put words in my mouth rather than actually arguing... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 20:09:00 -
[897] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: the joke is the idea that this will teach ppl to fight in the sandbox and you thinking that the skills are completely transferable.
who said skills are irrelevant? What im saying is that a skill disadvantage can be mitigated. And thats not a bad thing. PvP in the sandbox is about more than the 5 minutes you spend shooting eachother.
your only thinking on a tactical level and EVE is much more than that.
You should teach people how to overheat your Damage Control II because your backpedaling is hilarious.
You said fighting in the dojos won't help you with fighting in the rest of eve
Daichi Yamato wrote:Yeah in the same way doing karate on a saturday prepares you for a riot after a foot ball match...
Which is wrong, first of all depending on what you do small scale pvp is still a huge part of eve, of course it won't teach you metagame stuff like "hey this is PL in local they might hotdrop/blob you or hey this solar system is always camped by x pirates, etc" but one day you might get a good hero tackle because you learned how to manually pilot.
Or one day you might survive a small scale engagement at 1% structure because you kited properly thanks to your experience against those ships in the dojos.
Please be joking. I have a Ph.D |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 20:16:00 -
[898] - Quote
back pedaling is all yours
'of course it won't teach you metagame stuff like "hey this is PL in local they might hotdrop/blob you or hey this solar system is always camped by x pirates, etc"
this kind of 'meta-game' awareness or the ability to form and fund larger fleets are much more likely to allow you to succeed in eve than actual pilot skill. thats what i was saying all along.
if you dont like the riot analogy, change it to a street fight. if all you know is fair fights and rules, you arent much cop when anyone can bring any number of weapons and friends to a fight. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 20:30:00 -
[899] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Regnag Leppod wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:
everything you want this for can be satisfied by a non-TQ server.
So you are okay with multiple shards then? another person trying to put words in my mouth rather than actually arguing...
Are you or are you not ok with multiple shards. Because that is what Singularity is turning into, a consentual PvP shard. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 20:32:00 -
[900] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:back pedaling is all yours
'of course it won't teach you metagame stuff like "hey this is PL in local they might hotdrop/blob you or hey this solar system is always camped by x pirates, etc"
this kind of 'meta-game' awareness or the ability to form and fund larger fleets are much more likely to allow you to succeed in eve than actual pilot skill. thats what i was saying all along.
if you dont like the riot analogy, change it to a street fight. if all you know is fair fights, set numbers and rules, you arent much cop when anyone can bring any number of weapons and friends to a fight or you can be interrupted at anytime by a third party.
Except that mechanical skill is still relevant even with non-consensual fights, please read my post again.
Manual piloting is what makes the difference between a good tackle and a great tackle, same for small to mid gang engagements that logi surviving because he had good angular velocity/positioning might win you the fight.
I guess it might be too hard to understand for someone that only play the game to press f1. I have a Ph.D |
|
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 20:37:00 -
[901] - Quote
Regnag Leppod wrote:
Are you or are you not ok with multiple shards. Because that is what Singularity is turning into, a consentual PvP shard.
im not ok with multiple shards. If sisi became a consensual PvP shard with an economy it would be ultima online all over again.
as long as Sisi is a test server with seeded items, then they can have uninterruptible PvP.
Bamboozlement wrote:Except that mechanical skill is still relevant even with non-consensual fights, please read my post again. Manual piloting is what makes the difference between a good tackle and a great tackle, same for small to mid gang engagements that logi surviving because he had good angular velocity/positioning might win you the fight. I guess it might be too hard to understand for someone that only play the game to press f1.
you need to read my posts again. not at any point did i say pilot skill is irrelevant. it was you that tried to put those words in my mouth.
i implied that these dojo's would be as useful for PvP training as karate would be for riots. some of that karate might be useful on a tactical level, but not really where it matters.
/de-rail. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13366
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 20:39:00 -
[902] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:back pedaling is all yours
'of course it won't teach you metagame stuff like "hey this is PL in local they might hotdrop/blob you or hey this solar system is always camped by x pirates, etc"
this kind of 'meta-game' awareness or the ability to form and fund larger fleets are much more likely to allow you to succeed in eve than actual pilot skill. thats what i was saying all along.
if you dont like the riot analogy, change it to a street fight. if all you know is fair fights, set numbers and rules, you arent much cop when anyone can bring any number of weapons and friends to a fight or you can be interrupted at anytime by a third party. Except that mechanical skill is still relevant even with non-consensual fights, please read my post again. Manual piloting is what makes the difference between a good tackle and a great tackle, same for small to mid gang engagements that logi surviving because he had good angular velocity/positioning might win you the fight. I guess it might be too hard to understand for someone that only play the game to press f1.
Tackle in these dojos is redundant as the enemy is going nowhere so thats one lesson they will not be learning from these things. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 20:51:00 -
[903] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:
you need to read my posts again. not at any point did i say pilot skill is irrelevant. it was you that tried to put those words in my mouth.
i implied that these dojo's would be as useful for PvP training as karate would be for riots. some of that karate might be useful on a tactical level, but not really where it matters.
/de-rail.
Thanks for backpedaling from your initial statement that implied your dojo experience won't be useful in the rest of eve.
We both agree that it's not the case then.
baltec1 wrote: Tackle in these dojos is redundant as the enemy is going nowhere so thats one lesson they will not be learning from these things.
Can confirm that manual piloting in fw plexes is also useless when people don't run. /s
I have a Ph.D |
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 20:58:00 -
[904] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:
im not ok with multiple shards. If sisi became a consensual PvP shard with an economy it would be ultima online all over again.
as long as Sisi is a test server with seeded items, then they can have uninterruptible PvP.
Ah, so what it comes down to is money then. You get a perverse sense of power and control out of taking things away from others that they worked for. That explains a lot.
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 21:03:00 -
[905] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: full of strawmans today.
gameplays not gimped. if u want gimmicky PvP with no interruption and special rules you can get that on other servers with no issue.
what becomes gimped is the single shard if these become part of TQ.
id be perfectly fine with them on TQ as long as i can warp in with nado's to grab some shiny officer mods from 'elite' PvPers.
Why do you consider it gimmicky pvp? What if I consider blobbing gimmicky pvp? Is consensual pvp or even mining worse gameplay than ganking or blobbing?
You didn't reply when I asked you what if we did the same to people asking for changes in sov null, why is that?
Yes because elite pvpers are known to fly shiny officer mods ships.
Are you sure you play this videogame? I have a Ph.D |
Zappity
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
1352
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 21:32:00 -
[906] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Zappity wrote:I support this as long as the deployable is destructible without a criminal flag in highsec.
Those who are complaining that this is contrary to the spirit of EVE should also think about B0TLRD. These dojos are basically highsec thunderdomes which, in principle, are exactly what your glorious leaders have chosen to inflict on the game at a much larger scale. Go do something about that if you truly care about the spirit of EVE. What do you mean by the spirit of EVE, competitive and consensual pvp exist in EVE since 2005 and since it's a sandbox there is no lesser gameplay. Are you comparing AT participants to the nullsec blue donut? And what's the point if there is no criminal flag, how can we defend against you? See if you go criminal it's interesting for everyone, you get content, I get content but I'm not surprised to see a "true EVE player" that knows the true xXx"SPIRIT OF EVE"xXx yet again ask for risk averse pew pew.How ironic. I made no comment on AT participants. And you clearly have no idea what you are talking about - a criminal flag means CONCORD will destroy you whereas a suspect flag, which is what should be applied, and means other players can attack you.
And I also have a PhD because that is immensely relevant apparently. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Flashrain
Vanguard Frontiers Intrepid Crossing
19
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 21:33:00 -
[907] - Quote
Suggested enhancements :
1. Hosting - Allow me (non combatant) to deploy dojo anywhere, set rewards, and invite participates by name/corp/alliance/random. 2. Rewards - Allow the reward to range from physical items, to contracts, to isk, to aurum/plex, to medals 3. Location - Allow dojo to be deployed in null sec, low sec, hi sec, wormhole, dead space - with location info/effects visible to combatants. 4. Arena markers - Allow force field like arena behavior. Either start both ships in the middle and eject them as if they have no password. Or give them two force fields to sit in. 5. Timers / Rounds - Allow timers/rounds to be enforce by game mechanics. 6. Configurable Winning Conditions - Allow setting winning condititions - hull damage/out of ammo/out of capacitor/ ship destroyed/surrender. 7. Allow Streaming - via twitch. 8. Allow obstacle deployment - Allow non combatants x minutes to deploy mobile structures as obstacles 9. Dojo browser - browses for dojos to join 10. Dojo rating system - allow players to rate Dojos, rating displaced in dojo browser/search 11. Sponsorship system - allow players to sponsor combatants, via adding rewards to the pool. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 21:37:00 -
[908] - Quote
Regnag Leppod wrote:
Ah, so what it comes down to is money then. You get a perverse sense of power and control out of taking things away from others that they worked for. That explains a lot.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
im playing EVE, what are you playing?
on the Sisi server i can take a mining fleet, take it to null sec, mine trillions in minerals and then freighter it back to a market, and i can do that without even thinking of someone attacking me.
likewise in a dojo i can fit up my ship with the blingiest modules isk can buy knowing for certain that i know who im up against and what they are bringing. that im not ok with.
Bamboozlement wrote: Thanks for backpedaling from your initial statement that implied your dojo experience won't be useful in the rest of eve.
We both agree that it's not the case then.
again, back pedaling is all yours EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 21:42:00 -
[909] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote: full of strawmans today.
gameplays not gimped. if u want gimmicky PvP with no interruption and special rules you can get that on other servers with no issue.
what becomes gimped is the single shard if these become part of TQ.
id be perfectly fine with them on TQ as long as i can warp in with nado's to grab some shiny officer mods from 'elite' PvPers.
Why do you consider it gimmicky pvp? What if I consider blobbing gimmicky pvp? Is consensual pvp or even mining worse gameplay than ganking or blobbing? You didn't reply when I asked you what if we did the same to people asking for changes in sov null, why is that? Yes because elite pvpers are known to fly shiny officer mods ships. Are you sure you play this videogame?
look up definition of gimmicky and that will answer your first two questions
where are you trying to go with the second question?
i was referring to the kind of players who always cry about the meta-game and think everyone should fight honorably. the truth is in the sand box all that matters is what you can and are willing to do and what you cant and are unwilling to do. and yes, if dojo's become a thing, players will bling their ships knowing there is no risk of outside intervention.
yeah im playing EVE, the harsh sandbox where non-consensual, unbridled PvP is the norm. its why i play.
your the one advocating a change in direction here. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 21:50:00 -
[910] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I made no comment on AT participants. And you clearly have no idea what you are talking about - a criminal flag means CONCORD will destroy you whereas a suspect flag, which is what should be applied, and means other players can attack you.
And I also have a PhD because that is immensely relevant apparently.
You made a comment on our playstyle.
And yes I meant that you should have to wardec people to shoot dojos.
Or make dojos unscannable and then I'm ok with a suspect flag, if not it would be too easy for people to go from dojo and dojo and shoot everything.
We should wait and see how CCP want to implement dojos.
I guess you're referring to my meta-ironic signature ? Good to know colleague, my apologies for being too passive-aggressive.
I have a Ph.D |
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 22:08:00 -
[911] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: again, back pedaling is all yours
I'm not the one that implied your dojo experience (and mechanical skills) won't be that helpful for the rest of eve friendo.
It's okay now we both agree on that.
Daichi Yamato wrote: look up definition of gimmicky and that will answer your first two questions
where are you trying to go with the second question?
i was referring to the kind of players who always cry about the meta-game and think everyone should fight honorably. the truth is in the sand box all that matters is what you can and are willing to do and what you cant and are unwilling to do. and yes, if dojo's become a thing, players will bling their ships knowing there is no risk of outside intervention.
yeah im playing EVE, the harsh sandbox where non-consensual, unbridled PvP is the norm. its why i play.
your the one advocating a change in direction here.
But it's gimmicky only in your opinion, it's not objectively gimmicky.
The truth is you are dropping a buzzword without explaining because you dislike consensual pvp. Disliking consensual pvp is fine, but you have to remember that this is a sandbox and your way to play is not the only way to play.
You understand that ships will explode? It's not without risk since ships will literally explode.
You are implying that non-consensual pvp is the norm, there is no norm this is a sandbox, people mining aren't worse than people ganking there is no norm when it comes to a sandbox.
I would bet you my wallet if CCP went and made a graph of what people do in eve, non-consensual pvp wouldn't be a majority, hell you can check zkillboard and see that a majority of kills are between 2 (or more) sides wanting to fight.
Not only that but there is no change in direction, CCP isn't removing any of this.
Adding options (from a need) != changing direction. I have a Ph.D |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 22:19:00 -
[912] - Quote
according to CCP the vast majority of PVP in eve is non-consensual.
gimmicky means special and different. this is what all the snowflake remarks are about. to get a little bit of space where you cant be touched by everyone is a special rule and gimmicky. blobs on the other hand exist because of a lack of special rules, its raw and unbridled.
precisely its a sandbox and everyone can play how they want. im not saying you cant have consensual PvP with me, your the one trying to say i cant have non-consensual PvP with you. the fact that a magical room is made where no one but the willing participants can exist is about as anti-sandbox as you can get. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Angeal MacNova
LankTech
211
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 22:22:00 -
[913] - Quote
Since this is exactly what a player suggesting this idea would get...
WoW arenas are that way --> |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 22:27:00 -
[914] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:according to CCP the vast majority of PVP in eve is non-consensual.
gimmicky means special and different. this is what all the snowflake remarks are about. to get a little bit of space where you cant be touched by everyone is a special rule and gimmicky. blobs on the other hand exist because of a lack of special rules, its raw and unbridled.
precisely its a sandbox and everyone can play how they want. im not saying you cant have consensual PvP with me, your the one trying to say i cant have non-consensual PvP with you. the fact that a magical room is made where no one but the willing participants can exist is about as anti-sandbox as you can get.
But to me blobbing is gimmicky, hell it's far from lacking rules fleets are normalized, fleetcomps are normalized your fc will yell at you if you don't bring the same ship, and it's really gimmicky "follow fleet, press f1" eve combat is deeper than that, blobbers will never experiment it.
Just because blobbing is different and gimmicky from my pov it shouldn't be allowed? Hell no, blobbing should be allowed there is no "lesser" gameplay this is a sandbox. If some people enjoy blobbing they should have the tools (and they do) to blob, if people have a sov system so awful people stop playing CCP should change it..
Despite the fact that eve always had that terrible sov system, it's not a good excuse.
You can have all the non-consensual pvp with me when I chose a gameplay with enough rewards to warrant the risk of non-consensual pvp, if I join a dojo I have nothing to gain and my ship to risk.
You understand that if I'm in a station or cloaked in a safe you can do nothing about it too? I have a Ph.D |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 22:47:00 -
[915] - Quote
your talking gimmicky as in player behavior, im talking gimmicky as in game mechanics. theres a difference and it matters.
the whole idea of dojos is to control the risk you expose yourself to. If your in a station i know exactly where you are and where you will appear from and im an advocate for making cloaks findable. If im hunting you and your flying in space duelling i should be able to come over and help the other side or just outright shoot your ship from under you. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 22:59:00 -
[916] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:your talking gimmicky as in player behavior, im talking gimmicky as in game mechanics. theres a difference and it matters.
the whole idea of dojos is to control the risk you expose yourself to. If your in a station i know exactly where you are and where you will appear from and im an advocate for making cloaks findable. If im hunting you and your flying in space duelling i should be able to come over and help the other side or just outright shoot your ship from under you.
No, to me logging in to jump to a cyno and press f1 is extremely gimmicky, I'm talking about game mechanics.
Your bias toward your gameplay is showing, you don't respect the fact that people might find your gameplay gimmicky too and that's why saying "this shouldn't be allowed because I think it's gimmicky" isn't a valid argument.
Eve is about risk vs reward, joining a dojo has no rewards and you are at risk of losing your ship, I don't see how this is unbalanced. I have a Ph.D |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 23:10:00 -
[917] - Quote
FYI im not in sov warfare nor big fleet fights. though i have hot dropped a couple of times (and apparently CCP are looking at changing that)
no one is talking about balance. its the concept of being uninterruptable i dislike. that guarantee of no third parties, back stabbing or foul play that makes eve what it is. The notion that you can be out doing your thing and i cannot reach out and grab you.
the idea of dueling im fine with. the idea of trying to have an honourable fight im fine with. its the point at which nothing dishonorable can happen that im disagreeing with.
i prefer an EVE without such guarantees. its really is why i play. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 23:23:00 -
[918] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:FYI im not in sov warfare nor big fleet fights. though i have hot dropped a couple of times (and apparently CCP are looking at changing that)
no one is talking about balance. its the concept of being uninterruptable i dislike. that guarantee of no third parties, back stabbing or foul play that makes eve what it is. The notion that you can be out doing your thing and i cannot reach out and grab you.
the idea of dueling im fine with. the idea of trying to have an honourable fight im fine with. its the point at which nothing dishonorable can happen that im disagreeing with.
i prefer an EVE without such guarantees. its really is why i play.
Good but you understand that if people could warp in whats the point of having dojos instead of duels? Dojos are allowing players to train in a tournament setup and run their own tournaments, tournament gameplay despite being popular for years have always been under-designed in eve.
There is literally nothing to gain from dojos, and ships will explode it's not like they are adding an unscannable pve plex. I have a Ph.D |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2749
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 23:31:00 -
[919] - Quote
It would appear that in EVE, the only valid playstyles are "Ganker", "Gatecamper" and "F1 Monkey".
Other playstyles are only allowed to exist because they can be used as a source of targets for the above. If a particular playstyle cannot be fed upon by one of these three valid playstyles, it must be purged from EVE.
Right, guys? /s |
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 23:55:00 -
[920] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:It would appear that in EVE, the only valid playstyles are "Ganker", "Gatecamper" and "F1 Monkey".
Other playstyles are only allowed to exist because they can be used as a source of targets for the above. If a particular playstyle cannot be fed upon by one of these three valid playstyles, it must be purged from EVE.
Right, guys? /s
You left out pathalogical sadist. |
|
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 23:56:00 -
[921] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:
Good but you understand that if people could warp in whats the point of having dojos instead of duels?
This is where im coming from yeah. unless this allows players to create 2v2's and larger without the time consuming cross duelling then id rather not have.
if the duel is created at a safe, how many people are going to deliberately probe you down to attack you? its not going to be every Tom, **** and Harry. It will only be the people who are really looking to target you. and that to me is good gameplay.
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Other playstyles are only allowed to exist because they can be used as a source of targets for the above. If a particular playstyle cannot be fed upon by one of these three valid playstyles, it must be purged from EVE.
more like anything that doesnt allow anyone at anytime to attack you for any reason. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.27 23:56:00 -
[922] - Quote
Regnag Leppod wrote: You left out pathalogical sadist.
save us your sob story EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 00:01:00 -
[923] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: This is where im coming from yeah. unless this allows players to create 2v2's and larger without the time consuming cross duelling then id rather not have.
if the duel is created at a safe, how many people are going to deliberately probe you down to attack you? its not going to be every Tom, **** and Harry. It will only be the people who are really looking to target you. and that to me is good gameplay.
Would make sense if we could check for :
- implants
- pimped modules
- boundary violations
- OGB links
- neut logi alts
And being able to do this easily, I don't see why I have to gimp my gameplay and add a lot of unnecessary steps just because you don't like the idea and won't use it.
There is no unbalance issue with dojos, the eve risk vs reward philosophy is still applied here. I have a Ph.D |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 00:07:00 -
[924] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: more like anything that doesnt allow anyone at anytime to attack you for any reason.
Again, this is a common misconception about eve, eve isn't a game where you can attack someone at anytime for any reason.
It's about risk vs reward, if I'm orbiting a plex in fw you are free to attack me because orbiting a plex has a reward (LP) but also a risk (being attacked), now if I'm ship spinning in my station you can't do anything about it and it's fine because there is no reward to ship spinning.
There is no reward for dojos and you're at risk of losing your ship. I have a Ph.D |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 00:19:00 -
[925] - Quote
again, i dont have an issue with the balance implications nor any equipment restrictions/checks (like a fw acc-gate-ish). just the can't be attacked by anyone at anytime for any reason implications.
make em probable, warpable. even make anyone interrupting go suspect upon entering, lose sec status, whatever. just take away that peace of mind that you have to deal with only what is in front of you.
Bamboozlement wrote:Again, this is a common misconception about eve, eve isn't a game where you can attack someone at anytime for any reason.
have you read the EVE FAQ? or even my sig? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 00:25:00 -
[926] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:again, i dont have an issue with the balance implications nor any equipment restrictions/checks (like a fw acc-gate-ish). just the can't be attacked by anyone at anytime for any reason implications. make em probable, warpable. even make anyone interrupting go suspect upon entering, lose sec status, whatever. just take away that peace of mind that you have to deal with only what is in front of you. Bamboozlement wrote:Again, this is a common misconception about eve, eve isn't a game where you can attack someone at anytime for any reason. have you read the EVE FAQ? or even my sig?
Sorry but EVE Online was and should always be balanced around risk vs reward, I showed you over and over that dojos respect this philosophy and that your misconceptions about being able to attack people at anytime are wrong.
For your signature : you must have missed the NEO/AT streams and tournament since 2005.
I'm glad CCP is starting to work on this under-designed part of eve, I'm sad you don't like it but heh there is a lot of other stuff to do in eve so you should be fine. I have a Ph.D |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2752
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 00:32:00 -
[927] - Quote
Eve is not about being ganked anywhere at any time for any reason. EVE is about having your day ruined anywhere at any time for any reason and having your dojo blown to bits accomplishes exactly that.
The small-minded tunnel vision in this thread is infuriating. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 00:37:00 -
[928] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Eve is not about being ganked anywhere at any time for any reason. EVE is about having your day ruined anywhere at any time for any reason and having your dojo blown to bits accomplishes exactly that.
The small-minded tunnel vision in this thread is infuriating.
Exactly, people in this thread must hate content or something.. I have a Ph.D |
DrysonBennington
Aliastra Gallente Federation
184
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 00:53:00 -
[929] - Quote
CCP Veritas - Any new type of content that enables Rookie and Veteran pilots alike to engage in something different is always welcome. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 00:53:00 -
[930] - Quote
if shooting the dojo ends the duel and makes the duellers warpable i missed that because i havent read every page.
if it goes into reinforce and does nothing to the duel itself then thanks for nothing. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
|
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 01:20:00 -
[931] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Regnag Leppod wrote: You left out pathalogical sadist.
save us your sob story
LOL. You're the one crying like a butthurt little girl over an experiment on a test server by one of the Devs.
It's not like they are removing gates and going to a direct jump system, or forcing everyone to have their safety set to green in high sec (which they have the ability to do, btw). Dojo's aren't some impenetrable safe spot that your precious tear producing targets can just turn on and suddenly hide from you while making billions of isk that you covet so much.
It must drive you insane that many people go through life day after day without experiencing pain or suffering. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 03:31:00 -
[932] - Quote
Zappity wrote: Tell yourself that if it makes you feel better. Supporting B0TLRD while complaining about this is hypocritical in the extreme.
I'm not complaining about this. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 03:35:00 -
[933] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: AT is not part of the sandbox, they are a stand alone event hosted by CCP in space we have no access to using tools have had no access to.
If the AT is not part of the sandbox, if it is truly standalone, then why does winning it give someone the opportunity to take 120b of my ISK if I want to pick up an Etana?
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 03:48:00 -
[934] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: But to me blobbing is gimmicky, hell it's far from lacking rules fleets are normalized, fleetcomps are normalized your fc will yell at you if you don't bring the same ship, and it's really gimmicky "follow fleet, press f1" eve combat is deeper than that, blobbers will never experiment it.
You know, a fair number of us who think this dojo idea has potential are also dirty blobbers, and frankly, your oversimplified generalization there is pretty insulting.
Follow fleet, press F1? Really? Maybe for the most slack-jawed of dps pilots, but many of us are doing quite a lot of things in those fights - tackle, defensive dictors, logistics, scouts, etc. And even the basic line battleship pilot should be keeping his eyes on the larger situation, watching local, keeping an occassional eye on d-scans, watching for distant cynos on the overview, and so on.
Eve combat is deeper than 'follow fleet, press f1', even for the aspects of the game with which you clearly have no direct experience.
|
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 04:19:00 -
[935] - Quote
Regnag Leppod wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Regnag Leppod wrote: You left out pathalogical sadist.
save us your sob story LOL. You're the one crying like a butthurt little girl over an experiment on a test server by one of the Devs.
check my posts again.
youre the one trying to call people pathological sadists over a GAME.
if there was a day in eve where no one suffered loss it truly would be a sad day. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
296
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 05:38:00 -
[936] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: AT is not part of the sandbox, they are a stand alone event hosted by CCP in space we have no access to using tools have had no access to. There has never been any point in the last 14 years in which we have had consensual PvP on Tranq. The only people looking for risk free PvP are people who want to lock out everyone else from their honourable PvP 1v1 matches.
Thats a lot of effort, ISK, and time by a lot of players, and a lot of advertising on the part of CCP to be "not part of the sandbox"
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13374
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 05:58:00 -
[937] - Quote
Toriessian wrote:baltec1 wrote: AT is not part of the sandbox, they are a stand alone event hosted by CCP in space we have no access to using tools have had no access to. There has never been any point in the last 14 years in which we have had consensual PvP on Tranq. The only people looking for risk free PvP are people who want to lock out everyone else from their honourable PvP 1v1 matches.
Thats a lot of effort, ISK, and time by a lot of players, and a lot of advertising on the part of CCP to be "not part of the sandbox"
Its not. We do not have access to either the space used or the tools used by CCP to run it. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2757
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 06:02:00 -
[938] - Quote
Toriessian wrote:baltec1 wrote: AT is not part of the sandbox, they are a stand alone event hosted by CCP in space we have no access to using tools have had no access to. There has never been any point in the last 14 years in which we have had consensual PvP on Tranq. The only people looking for risk free PvP are people who want to lock out everyone else from their honourable PvP 1v1 matches.
Thats a lot of effort, ISK, and time by a lot of players, and a lot of advertising on the part of CCP to be "not part of the sandbox"
Not to mention how my geckos are worth more now that so many were killed in the AT. Or the AT prize ships that enter the economy, courtesy of the winners. Not part of the sandbox, and yet it affects the sandbox? Right. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2757
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 06:06:00 -
[939] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:[Its not. We do not have access to either the space used or the tools used by CCP to run it.
That's an extremely and unreasonably narrow view of "part of the sandbox". You have to be able to fly there and gank the participants, or it's not part of the sandbox? The AT takes place on TQ using ships built and paid for on TQ. The ship, module and drone losses affect the market on TQ. The ships that are given out as winnings are on TQ and sold for ISK on TQ. That money funds pilot activities on TQ that might not have happened otherwise.
Yet you still choose to say that it's not part of the sandbox, despite all the effects it has on the sandbox, simply because you cannot fly there? It's a controlled environment specifically because gankers would ruin it for everyone and destroy the tournament completely if they could. Your inability to get past the walls does not disqualify something as being part of the sandbox or not.
|
Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
2009
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 06:08:00 -
[940] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Greetings Spaceship Fighting Enthusiasts, Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? Well, have I got the extremely rough prototype for you to try out on Duality! Introducing: Dojos! As immortalized in the coolest video ever, IGÇÖve done a lot of programming for EVE tournaments over the past couple years, so when I found myself with a couple months of spare time, we thought itGÇÖd be a good idea for me to take a stab at seeing what kind of experience I could craft around that style of gameplay while staying true to the sandbox of EVE. There are four strong guiding principles that I applied while doing this:
- Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise.
- Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself
- We should cater as much as possible to the participant that wants a quick, easy PvP fix.
- Players should run the whole thing, with the game providing no economic value to participants nor organizers
So, some details on what the prototype turned out to be. ThereGÇÖs a personal deployable that you can obtain from item redeption on Duality that when put into space and stocked with ships and modules (itGÇÖs huge), provides players docked in that system with the ability to fight each other with those ships and modules in fair environment. ItGÇÖs currently limited to 1 pilot on each side, and ships worth 4 points or less given the AT-XII points values. Players on Duality can find dojos to fight at through the extremely aptly labeled GÇ£CalculatorGÇ¥ entry in the GÇ£BusinessGÇ¥ area of the Neocom. You need to be calculating to win! Turns out itGÇÖs easier to copy another Neocom entryGÇÖs stuff than to make your own. ItGÇÖs that kind of prototype folks. Anyway, hereGÇÖs a look at the screen that awaits the intrepid dojo fighter: [img]http://i.imgur.com/CdcafFv.png[/img] On the left here youGÇÖve got a breakdown of all the types of ships/modules/ammo/whatever that are stocked in the dojo ready for use. On the left, youGÇÖve got all of your personal and corporation fittings with handy XGÇÖs or check marks depending on if all of the types used in the fitting are available in the dojo. Highlight one thatGÇÖs fully available, hit GÇ£Select FittingGÇ¥, and youGÇÖll notice in the bottom left your entry in your team listing now shows what ship youGÇÖve picked. It would have a button that shows the full fitting but I havenGÇÖt gotten around to that yet. From there, hit GÇ£Ready!GÇ¥ and youGÇÖre off to the worldGÇÖs worst matchmaking! Once matched up with another player in the dojo, youGÇÖre both whisked away directly from station to your ships, assembled from the items in the dojo, in a deadspace pocket placed randomly in space thatGÇÖs guarded from people warping to it - theyGÇÖll warp to the dojo deployable if they try. YouGÇÖll need to load up ammo because IGÇÖve had some problems doing that automatically, but itGÇÖs a fine way to spend the 40 second pre-game time. YouGÇÖll also quickly notice that IGÇÖve dumped you directly in the center of the fight area, because I didn't implement a range selector. I probably should have done that. Oh well. I did of course implement boundary violations at the customary 125km. My priorities are clear. I think thatGÇÖs enough words about it. If this looks interesting to you, hop on over to Duality and take a spin. Instructions on how to do that are right over here. IGÇÖve set up an extremely simple dojo in FD-MLJ, but IGÇÖm sure someone who knows 1-1s way better than I do will set up a well-stocked dojo that will satisfy all your frigate fighting fantasies. If your account is inactive on Duality, post on over here and it'll get take care of maybe. If youGÇÖve got ideas about how it could be better, or different points/pilot count combinations to try, IGÇÖm all ears. If you think this is a terrible idea, I look forward to your well-reasoned arguments. In either case hit it up quick GÇÿcause come Friday night I turn into a pumpkin. LetGÇÖs have some fun killing each other repeatedly, ~CCP Veritas
For the love of all that is good and holy, please do not implement this. It will kill the game. EVE is a sandbox, and introducing features that undermine the sandbox-y-ness is never a good idea. That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... |
|
Riela Tanal
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 06:09:00 -
[941] - Quote
I would be very interested in what this could mean for player run events such as Theomachy. But it would require a lot more functions and options obviously and I can tell this is just a prototype. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2757
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 06:12:00 -
[942] - Quote
I wonder.. are there any devs actually following this thread, or have they abandoned it as an endless flamewar and left it up to ISD Ezwal? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13374
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 06:13:00 -
[943] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
That's an extremely and unreasonably narrow view of "part of the sandbox".
No it is an exact fact. None of us have access to these things or anything else that can stop other people from attacking you while you PvP in EVE.
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: You have to be able to fly there and gank the participants, or it's not part of the sandbox? The AT takes place on TQ using ships built and paid for on TQ. The ship, module and drone losses affect the market on TQ. The ships that are given out as winnings are on TQ and sold for ISK on TQ. That money funds pilot activities on TQ that might not have happened otherwise.
And all of those things are so small they have zero impact upon the game.
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Yet you still choose to say that it's not part of the sandbox, despite all the effects it has on the sandbox, simply because you cannot fly there? It's a controlled environment specifically because gankers would ruin it for everyone and destroy the tournament completely if they could. Your inability to get past the walls does not disqualify something as being part of the sandbox or not.
If it stops others from attacking you while in space while you PvP then yes it does disqualify it from being part of the sandbox. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
182
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 06:54:00 -
[944] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: That's an extremely and unreasonably narrow view of "part of the sandbox".
No it is an exact fact.
But again, the prize ships come out of it, and they affect the sandbox. Which means the AT affects the sandbox. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13374
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 07:15:00 -
[945] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: That's an extremely and unreasonably narrow view of "part of the sandbox".
No it is an exact fact. But again, the prize ships come out of it, and they affect the sandbox. Which means the AT affects the sandbox.
They have as much impact upon the game as the federate issue megathron. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Caval Marten
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 07:49:00 -
[946] - Quote
I'm just wondering if many in the pro-dojo crowd actually have an appreciation of what solo pvp entails.. the hunt, the outsmarting, the setup, etc.
Watch a lokoforloki (zao) or fintaure stream, look at what they do on their roams. Yeah sometimes there are blobs, sometimes there is ecm but then sometimes there are epic fights. Dojos are just cheapening the experience. With them a soloer jumps into system but the target instead of setting up in a plex sits in station and says come fight in my dojo with X ship or Y setup. This sounds fun??
What are these dojos fixing? If you and a partner want to fight you don't need a dojo. To all those claiming neutral logi issues or other other scenarios.. are you going to ask the friendly pirate that comes into system to fight in your controlled dojo? ..be realistic.
|
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
208
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 08:12:00 -
[947] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:I don't have a problem with the dojo idea, but I worrry about abuse. I have not been on the test server to try it, so perhaps this is not an issue. Let's say I have my dojo deployed in my home system. I try to undock, but a hostile Interdictor bubbles the undock. So, my alt and I undock and activate my dojo. What happens? Do my alt and I warp off to my protected Deadspace pocket? If my alt and I are ratting in the same system and a hostile enters local, do I warp to a safe spot for the rest of the timer? Or several variations on this theme...
In short, I am concerned that device, if brought to TQ, will be used to avoid nonconsenual PVP. That would be devastating.
If someone wants to be an honorable space samurai and have fixed 1v1 matches, that is fine by me as long as real ships explode and there are still consequences in Eve. You would be able to grab a D-scan of the area without having to undock into a station camp.
Instead of demanding this killed by fire right away, why not sit down and work out how to prevent it from being abused. A simple fix because this is an "instanced, 5min long area of space" is to write things that you don't want to see, i.e. no way to gain an outside advantage other than having a 1v1 or team brawl.
That being said, to answer the first guys question: you can only access the dojo from being docked. You cannot warp off from the 125km sphere. Once the timer runs out or the fight is finished, see a ship was destroyed, then both parties are loaded back into station. There is no abuse or ability to avoid a station camp so relax.
To answer the second concern: if the option of d-scan, especially if you could gain advantage from d-scanning what's near station/gate/etc. from the safety of the dojo fight area, then just have all d-scan abilities disabled while inside the "instanced space".
I don't know much about coding, but I would make the assumption that if the Dojo spawns an arena in space it's doing so to implement specific rules to a specific picket of space, i.e. Boundary violations and immediate ship destruction. If that is the case, then it would be much more proactive and productive to write down all of the things that would be abuseble by dojo fighters so that the pockets could have a list of rules that cannot be broken, like d-scanning or boosting, i.e. only allow links inside the pocket to be granted inside the sphere and no links from the outside to affect the ships inside (bc it's own mini-system within in a system).
--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
208
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 08:18:00 -
[948] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:[quote=Bamboozlement][quote=baltec1]
The real irony here is having you demand a sandbox then in the next sentence demand that everyone elses sandbox be take away.
Also please stop telling both lies and trying to compare totally different things to each other. There has never been a mechanic in place that forces "fair" fights in EVE.
Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe CCP has tried in the past and just didn't get the resulted they wanted and that is now the next iteration of dueling and designed to actually achieve their desired results? --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
208
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 08:35:00 -
[949] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Regnag Leppod wrote:
Ah, so what it comes down to is money then. You get a perverse sense of power and control out of taking things away from others that they worked for. That explains a lot.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon im playing EVE, what are you playing? on the Sisi server i can take a mining fleet, take it to null sec, mine trillions in minerals and then freighter it back to a market, and i can do that without even thinking of someone attacking me. likewise in a dojo i can fit up my ship with the blingiest modules isk can buy knowing for certain that i know who im up against and what they are bringing. that im not ok with. i also get a perverse sense of excitement when that which matters to me is threatened. Or knowing that i have destroyed a ship of my enemies that they cannot use against me again. the thrill of loss and the unexpected is what makes eve what it is and it also makes every victory that much more sweeter. perhaps your're looking for a different game. Bamboozlement wrote: Thanks for backpedaling from your initial statement that implied your dojo experience won't be useful in the rest of eve.
We both agree that it's not the case then.
again, back pedaling is all yours
I think someone hasn't tested the dojo on the duality server....
You can still have you day ruined by many reasons: -hauler gets ganked moving ships and mods to the dojo because remember the dojo must be pre-stocked with all ships and mods before the fight -hauler can be ganked with deploying the dojo before the fight/tournament begins -the dojo can be put into reinforced (haven't check to see if reinforced mode doesn't allow anymore fights to happen) -destroy the dojo and all of the contents inside resulting in direct loss to the dojo owner
Most agreed on 1v1 or duels already have people showing what fits they are bringing so there would be no difference except more control in the process, which means you can't be a butt pirate and bring a full faction fit ship....or you can still can, except now the other pilot will know beforehand and will get even more enjoyment popping and looting your ship
As the for "keep this trash of the TQ server" or the "I'm only okay with this on the SiSI server". Why do you want to actively push people off the live server and directly affect open world play. By forcing people to not log on the live sever so they can run their fights/tourneys on the test server, I ask how is that good for the game? Does everyone realize that real ships and real consequences are being added if this goes live on TQ because people will continue to work on the test server with broken tools and no real risk involved...
--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
PastyWhiteDevil
Mayhem and Ruin Point Blank Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 08:42:00 -
[950] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:EVE's "winning formula" has turned it into a game where nullsec is stagnant, people can and do roam 40j without finding anything (either because they're not allowed to shoot the half of EVE that's blue to them or because all they find are risk-averse pilots who dock/pos up) and where people log out and play other games as a way to pass the time.
Is that really okay? Are you really saying "EVE should be this game that people log out of to go play something else"?
Let's not forget how so-called 1v1 virtually requires you to have an offgrid boosting alt (because the other guy does) and how there's just so much PvP in highsec that isn't docking games or ganks.
So yeah. Dojos will totally kill EVE. Because EVE is in the best state it's ever been in. Is the sarcasm thick enough yet?
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
One last thing: None of you crying change-averse bittervets seem to realize that this isn't on TQ. It hasn't been announced for TQ. It hasn't even been put on SiSi. It's on Duality and nobody has said the first thing about it going to any other server. So HTFU and STFU or GTFO. [*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
i mostly solo and duo pvp. I don't use off grid boosting and my kb looks just fine. Secondly, it doesn't matter that it isn't on TQ because it is having the same or maybe a worse affect than if it were because it is pulling a ton of ppl from TQ and making things very empty and unenjoyable. In general fewer ppl online means fewer ppl to potentially **** with. Which in turn means less fun for me and people who play like me. GTFO |
|
Doufin
The Ur'Quan Masters Dream Fleet
11
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 08:53:00 -
[951] - Quote
Instead of these "Arenas" you, guys, should fix claim in order to evade 10%TD each timer. I mean put some limits on defending and attacking teams. |
PastyWhiteDevil
Mayhem and Ruin Point Blank Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 09:04:00 -
[952] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Kasarch wrote:Arenas? Are you seriously? When you split eve cluster to different instances? Also you need to remove space travels and make button "Fight" like in world of tanks. You shouldn't use logical fallacies if you want people to take you seriously : https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slopeTry to make logical and compelling arguments against dojos. Good luck with that.
The problem with you ridiculing him for using the slipery slope argument is that you too are engaging in conjecture. you're saying that our fears are unfounded and will not come to fruition and you have about as much if not less solid evidence that it won't happen as we do that it will. So get down off ur high ****ing horse. This is all CONJECTURE, so stfu about logical fallacies when nobody in here is engaging it structured sound logical argumentation. I could just as easily call yor argument the "Believes all content in eve is compartmentalized and will not effect other aspects" fallacy. All you are attempting to do is marginalize legitimate fears.
Btw. In debate an argument has to be both sound and logical to be considered valid. Also it's better to be sound and not logical than logical and not sound. |
PastyWhiteDevil
Mayhem and Ruin Point Blank Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 09:17:00 -
[953] - Quote
And honestly, as a pirate, I don't want there to be an easy button to learn pvp. It would directly cut in on potential profit by making more hard targets. I like it when there are idiots flying ships they have no business being in. If people want to learn to pvp they need to just go to low sec. I'll kill them until they learn how to not be killed and they will be better off for it in the end.
and i believe it undermines the effort that those of us who have learned the hard way had to put in. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2757
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 11:44:00 -
[954] - Quote
PastyWhiteDevil wrote:...and i believe it undermines the effort that those of us who have learned the hard way had to put in.
"I had to walk thirty miles in neck-deep snow, so you should have to do it too."
That's what this sounds like.
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 12:16:00 -
[955] - Quote
Caval Marten wrote:I'm just wondering if many in the pro-dojo crowd actually have an appreciation of what solo pvp entails.. the hunt, the outsmarting, the setup, etc.
Watch a lokoforloki (zao) or fintaure stream, look at what they do on their roams. Yeah sometimes there are blobs, sometimes there is ecm but then sometimes there are epic fights. Dojos are just cheapening the experience. With them a soloer jumps into system but the target instead of setting up in a plex sits in station and says come fight in my dojo with X ship or Y setup. This sounds fun??
What are these dojos fixing? If you and a partner want to fight you don't need a dojo. To all those claiming neutral logi issues or other other scenarios.. are you going to ask the friendly pirate that comes into system to fight in your controlled dojo? ..be realistic.
It's a different experience, and yes adding dojos won't stop people from roaming and going against the odds.
Sometimes you don't have the time to roam for hours for a good fight, and don't forget that streamers get more content because they stream..
And don't forget that this is a quality of life change for people that organize tournaments, more content for eve. I have a Ph.D |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 12:26:00 -
[956] - Quote
PastyWhiteDevil wrote: The problem with you ridiculing him for using the slipery slope argument is that you too are engaging in conjecture. you're saying that our fears are unfounded and will not come to fruition and you have about as much if not less solid evidence that it won't happen as we do that it will. So get down off ur high ****ing horse. This is all CONJECTURE, so stfu about logical fallacies when nobody in here is engaging it structured sound logical argumentation. I could just as easily call your argument the "Believes all content in eve is compartmentalized and will not effect other aspects" fallacy. All you are attempting to do is marginalize legitimate fears.
Btw. In debate an argument has to be both sound and logical to be considered valid. Also it's better to be sound and not logical than logical and not sound.
The burden of proof is on you, if you don't expect me to react when people with a meta-game agenda (aka I don't want to adapt my gameplay to this change) post doom and gloom comments with no logical basis then you should ignore my post, because I will, over and over.
As an example last time people were saying duels would kill eve : http://i.imgur.com/5v1zptC.jpg
Statements like "why go to lowsec/nullsec/x instead of pushing a button for a fair fight" imply that dojos will remove the incentive to go to nullsec/lowsec, which is plain wrong.
Stop trying to leverage fear with doom and gloom posts and be honest : you might have less easy targets to blob/gank if you don't adapt your gameplay to this change that's why most people are against this change.
Eve is all about risk vs reward. I have a Ph.D |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13376
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 12:36:00 -
[957] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: And don't forget that this is a quality of life change for people that organize tournaments, more content for eve.
You can already organise tournaments, this idea is only adding tools to make it easier and is in fact removing content in the form of people attacking said tournament. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13376
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 12:36:00 -
[958] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:PastyWhiteDevil wrote:...and i believe it undermines the effort that those of us who have learned the hard way had to put in. "I had to walk thirty miles in neck-deep snow, so you should have to do it too." That's what this sounds like.
God forbid you have to face something challenging in a game Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5289
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 12:44:00 -
[959] - Quote
update on the thread stats.
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/375485-1
Bamboozlement, please stop jumping down the throats of anyone with a negative comment =]I[= |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 12:58:00 -
[960] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote: And don't forget that this is a quality of life change for people that organize tournaments, more content for eve.
You can already organise tournaments, this idea is only adding tools to make it easier and is in fact removing content in the form of people attacking said tournament.
Baltec mate, it's not removing content since you can interact with dojos and people deploying them.
To me it would be worse if this was only available on sisi (I would probably play on sisi more than tq then, which is good from a selfish pov) because dojos would be safer, our losses wouldn't be valuable, and we would get less content overall.
All of this is better from a "competitive" pov but worse from an eve player pov.
Arrendis wrote: You know, a fair number of us who think this dojo idea has potential are also dirty blobbers, and frankly, your oversimplified generalization there is pretty insulting.
Follow fleet, press F1? Really? Maybe for the most slack-jawed of dps pilots, but many of us are doing quite a lot of things in those fights - tackle, defensive dictors, logistics, scouts, etc. And even the basic line battleship pilot should be keeping his eyes on the larger situation, watching local, keeping an occassional eye on d-scans, watching for distant cynos on the overview, and so on.
Eve combat is deeper than 'follow fleet, press f1', even for the aspects of the game with which you clearly have no direct experience.
Hey this is true, I was replying to someone that said mechanical skill and manual piloting isn't relevant to the rest of eve I had to simplify his logic to attack its core.
But yes you are right, like I said good manual piloting is what makes the difference between a good tackle and a great one.
And while it's true that "F1 grunts" should be doing more than pressing F1 in theory, when it comes to most battles I doubt it's the case especially seeing how it's difficult for some to follow simple orders or focus fire, but this is different from fleet to fleet and battle to battle anyway.
Sorry for being too passive-aggressive I guess, there is no lesser gameplay in eve and your experience here is more relevant than mine. I have a Ph.D |
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2759
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:01:00 -
[961] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:PastyWhiteDevil wrote:...and i believe it undermines the effort that those of us who have learned the hard way had to put in. "I had to walk thirty miles in neck-deep snow, so you should have to do it too." That's what this sounds like. God forbid you have to face something challenging in a game
I think you're either missing or ignoring the point.
PvP is challenging. Nobody's complaining that PvP is too hard. The person I'm quoting, however, says more or less "learning PvP was difficult for us, so it should have to be difficult for everyone else too because it was difficult for us before they got here."
That's neither fine in a game nor in real life - but especially not in a game, where the goal is to have fun.
Let me be blunt. **** sandbox purity if it means logging off to find fun elsewhere because the Old Boys' Club thinks EVE has to be a god-awful pain in the ass. EVE, at its core, is a game. Try treating it like one. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2759
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:02:00 -
[962] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:PastyWhiteDevil wrote:...and i believe it undermines the effort that those of us who have learned the hard way had to put in. "I had to walk thirty miles in neck-deep snow, so you should have to do it too." That's what this sounds like. God forbid you have to face something challenging in a game
I think you're either missing or ignoring the point.
PvP is challenging. Nobody's complaining that PvP is too hard. The person I'm quoting, however, says more or less "learning PvP was difficult for us, so it should have to be difficult for everyone else too because it was difficult for us before they got here."
That's neither fine in a game nor in real life - but especially not in a game, where the goal is to have fun.
Let me be blunt. **** sandbox purity if it means logging off to find fun elsewhere because the Old Boys' Club thinks EVE has to be a god-awful pain in the ass. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13377
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:06:00 -
[963] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I think you're either missing or ignoring the point.
PvP is challenging. Nobody's complaining that PvP is too hard. The person I'm quoting, however, says more or less "learning PvP was difficult for us, so it should have to be difficult for everyone else too because it was difficult for us before they got here."
That's neither fine in a game nor in real life - but especially not in a game, where the goal is to have fun.
Let me be blunt. **** sandbox purity if it means logging off to find fun elsewhere because the Old Boys' Club thinks EVE has to be a god-awful pain in the ass.
These arenas won't help anyone learn how to PvP in EVE as they are very different to what you will find in the wider world. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2760
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:09:00 -
[964] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I think you're either missing or ignoring the point.
PvP is challenging. Nobody's complaining that PvP is too hard. The person I'm quoting, however, says more or less "learning PvP was difficult for us, so it should have to be difficult for everyone else too because it was difficult for us before they got here."
That's neither fine in a game nor in real life - but especially not in a game, where the goal is to have fun.
Let me be blunt. **** sandbox purity if it means logging off to find fun elsewhere because the Old Boys' Club thinks EVE has to be a god-awful pain in the ass.
These arenas won't help anyone learn how to PvP in EVE as they are very different to what you will find in the wider world.
You can use them just fine to teach the basics and to let people get over that phase where they get too pumped up on adrenaline to know what's even happening.
My killboard is red enough to know at least that much about them.
I should take a moment as well to point out that I don't consider F1 monkeys to be PvPing any more than I consider the guns on my ship to be PvPing. So if "wider world" PvP includes F1 monkeying... well, I don't think anyone's even considering that so it probably doesn't. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:10:00 -
[965] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: It will block others from attacking your ship in space, that's removing content.
It's ok because it's adding content with the dojo interaction, your statement would be true if dojos weren't player made and destroyable.
Well it's not the case. I have a Ph.D |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13377
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:13:00 -
[966] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: It will block others from attacking your ship in space, that's removing content.
It's ok because it's adding content with the dojo interaction, your statement would be true if dojos weren't player made and destroyable. Well it's not the case.
Its not adding content because you can already do 1v1s. It is removing the ability for me to shoot your ship while you are in combat, thus it is removing content. This is a hard fact. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2761
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:18:00 -
[967] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: It will block others from attacking your ship in space, that's removing content.
It's ok because it's adding content with the dojo interaction, your statement would be true if dojos weren't player made and destroyable. Well it's not the case. Its not adding content because you can already do 1v1s. It is removing the ability for me to shoot your ship while you are in combat, thus it is removing content. This is a hard fact.
You can already shoot at literally everything in space that's not inside a POS shield. I don't think allowing a certain niche group of players the tools to have their sandbox will kill yours.
But then again, what do I know? **** everyone else and **** what anyone else wants, because EVE should only be fun for one playstyle, right?
No, you can't warp your tornado fleet to the fight and shoot the combatants. You also can't warp your tornado fleet to a POS and shoot the people who are inside the shields either.
You can blow up the POS, which everyone seems to be okay with. You can blow up the dojo too, but that's not good enough. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:25:00 -
[968] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Its not adding content because you can already do 1v1s. It is removing the ability for me to shoot your ship while you are in combat, thus it is removing content. This is a hard fact.
Except you're wrong friend, it's not about just 1v1s it's about 1v1s in the AT/NEO tournament setup, right now we have no automatic system to check for :
- implants
- pimped modules
- boundary violations
- OGB links
- neut logi alts
Not only that but in EVE Online shooting someone isn't the only way to interact with them, for example the only way to interact with me (negatively) if I stay in my station trading is to find what items I'm selling and to crash the market, it's still content even if you're not shooting.
EVE Online is all about risk vs reward, it's a common misconception that "you can shoot anything at anytime" (see : cloaked in safe, secure pos shield, in station, etc). I have a Ph.D |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13377
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:26:00 -
[969] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
But then again, what do I know? **** everyone else and **** what anyone else wants, because EVE should only be fun for one playstyle, right?
Notice that the only people wanting to get rid of another persons playstyle are the people who are defending a mechanic that stops others from interacting with you in this 1v1 arena.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:29:00 -
[970] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
But then again, what do I know? **** everyone else and **** what anyone else wants, because EVE should only be fun for one playstyle, right?
Notice that the only people wanting to get rid of another persons playstyle are the people who are defending a mechanic that stops others from interacting with you in this 1v1 arena.
CCP didn't remove your playstyle when they designed covops ships and stations either.
You can't always gank people in EVE, but you have other ways to interact with them. I have a Ph.D |
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2763
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:29:00 -
[971] - Quote
Yay for forum glitches. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2763
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:34:00 -
[972] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
But then again, what do I know? **** everyone else and **** what anyone else wants, because EVE should only be fun for one playstyle, right?
Notice that the only people wanting to get rid of another persons playstyle are the people who are defending a mechanic that stops others from interacting with you in this 1v1 arena.
That's a strawman and you know it. I demand better arguments than that.
Nobody's saying to get rid of F1 monkeying, ganking, gatecamping or anything else you do. The only thing that's being said is that there's room in the sandbox for structured tournament-style PvP backed by the requisite mechanics to make it work properly. You still have the entire rest of space to take a gigantic dump in, just like you always have.
You want to mess with their fight? Shoot the dojo. Not good enough for you? Then I guess the "this is EVE, you can't get everything you want so cry about it some more" argument cuts both ways. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
3998
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:35:00 -
[973] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
But then again, what do I know? **** everyone else and **** what anyone else wants, because EVE should only be fun for one playstyle, right?
Notice that the only people wanting to get rid of another persons playstyle are the people who are defending a mechanic that stops others from interacting with you in this 1v1 arena. That's a strawman and you know it. Nobody's saying to get rid of anything. I'm doing my level best to present rational arguments and I demand the same in return.
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:But then again, what do I know? **** everyone else and **** what anyone else wants, because EVE should only be fun for one playstyle, right? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13377
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:35:00 -
[974] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
But then again, what do I know? **** everyone else and **** what anyone else wants, because EVE should only be fun for one playstyle, right?
Notice that the only people wanting to get rid of another persons playstyle are the people who are defending a mechanic that stops others from interacting with you in this 1v1 arena. That's a strawman and you know it. Nobody's saying to get rid of anything. I'm doing my level best to present rational arguments and I demand the same in return.
Its not a strawman its the truth.
You keep on insinuating that "gankers" are demanding their playstyle be the one and only one when in fact, everyone so far is all in agreement that its ok to run 1v1s. Ironically the only playstyle that is being negetivly impacted is the gankers if this hits tranq as they will no longer be able attack people doing these honourable 1v1s. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13377
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:37:00 -
[975] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
But then again, what do I know? **** everyone else and **** what anyone else wants, because EVE should only be fun for one playstyle, right?
Notice that the only people wanting to get rid of another persons playstyle are the people who are defending a mechanic that stops others from interacting with you in this 1v1 arena. CCP didn't remove your playstyle when they designed covops ships and stations either. You can't always gank people in EVE, but you have other ways to interact with them.
When you are fighting someone in PvP with your ship you are neither cloaked nor in a station. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:43:00 -
[976] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: When you are fighting someone in PvP with your ship you are neither cloaked nor in a station.
When you are fighting someone in PvP in a fair and controlled environment that has no rewards and only risk (of losing your ship) you shouldn't get ganked by people for no reason.
The EVE philosophy is risk vs reward, not "gank everyone because I want to" this is how CCP designed the game, dojos respect this philosophy.
Ganking is not the only way to interact with people in EVE Online, yes I understand that you like ganking but this isn't baltec1 Online, please drop your self-entitlement and respect the sandbox. I have a Ph.D |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:45:00 -
[977] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:The only thing that's being said is that there's room in the sandbox for structured tournament-style PvP backed by the requisite mechanics to make it work properly.
What was the problem with people doing this on the test server, anyway? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:47:00 -
[978] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: When you are fighting someone in PvP in a fair and controlled environment
When such a thing exists, it has broken the sandbox. That is not even up for argument, it's a fact.
Quote: The EVE philosophy is risk vs reward, not "gank everyone because I want to" this is how CCP designed the game, dojos respect this philosophy.
Quite the opposite, actually. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2763
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:47:00 -
[979] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:The only thing that's being said is that there's room in the sandbox for structured tournament-style PvP backed by the requisite mechanics to make it work properly.
What was the problem with people doing this on the test server, anyway?
Because there's no loss on the test server. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13382
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:48:00 -
[980] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:
When you are fighting someone in PvP in a fair and controlled environment that has no rewards and only risk (of losing your ship) you shouldn't get ganked by people for no reason.
That you are there and shooting at each other is reason enough.
Bamboozlement wrote: The EVE philosophy is risk vs reward, not "gank everyone because I want to" this is how CCP designed the game, dojos respect this philosophy.
Having an area in space in which two people are fighting that is impossible for anyone else to enter is not something we have ever seen before.
Bamboozlement wrote: Ganking is not the only way to interact with people in EVE Online, yes I understand that you like ganking but this isn't baltec1 Online, please drop your self-entitlement and respect the sandbox.
I respect your right to do a 1v1, why do you not respect my right to blow both of you up? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:48:00 -
[981] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:The only thing that's being said is that there's room in the sandbox for structured tournament-style PvP backed by the requisite mechanics to make it work properly.
What was the problem with people doing this on the test server, anyway? Because there's no loss on the test server.
To the kind of people who want e-bushido, why do they even care? If it was about loss, they'd just do this wherever in space they felt like, instead of insisting on "you can touch me" walls for it. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2764
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:51:00 -
[982] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:The only thing that's being said is that there's room in the sandbox for structured tournament-style PvP backed by the requisite mechanics to make it work properly.
What was the problem with people doing this on the test server, anyway? Because there's no loss on the test server. To the kind of people who want e-bushido, why do they even care? If it was about loss, they'd just do this wherever in space they felt like, instead of insisting on "you can touch me" walls for it.
I'm pretty sure there's a difference between losing a fight against your opponent because they're a better pilot and losing a fight because a random Tornado showed up and alpha'd you off the field. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:53:00 -
[983] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
When such a thing exists, it has broken the sandbox. That is not even up for argument, it's a fact.
"I has broken the sandbox because I said so, despite the fact that dojos are player made and destroyable"
Just like EVE Online stopped being a sandbox in 2005 with the first AT tournament right? It was all a lie.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quite the opposite, actually.
Do you have any factual data or source that disprove my statement? Feel free to kill my character in station or cloaked in safe to prove your point am I right? I have a Ph.D |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:54:00 -
[984] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: I'm pretty sure there's a difference between losing a fight against your opponent because they're a better pilot and losing a fight because a random Tornado showed up and alpha'd you off the field.
Dead is dead.
Nevermind that I'd be really interested to see how they propose to have this abomination permit you to ignore off grid boosts. Because if they can do that, just remove off grid boosts entirely and fix the real problem. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:56:00 -
[985] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
That you are there and shooting at each other is reason enough.
Again this is your opinion and not how EVE Online was designed.
baltec1 wrote: Having an area in space in which two people are fighting that is impossible for anyone else to enter is not something we have ever seen before.
Yes we have, AT/NEO tournaments since 2005 and for technical reasons till now only CCP was able to organize them (manually, CCP Veritas started working on an automatized prototype that would allow players to do the same).
baltec1 wrote:
I respect your right to do a 1v1, why do you not respect my right to blow both of you up?
You can only blow me up when I choose a gameplay with enough rewards to warrant the risk of being blown up, welcome to EVE Online.
I have a Ph.D |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2765
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 13:58:00 -
[986] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: I'm pretty sure there's a difference between losing a fight against your opponent because they're a better pilot and losing a fight because a random Tornado showed up and alpha'd you off the field.
Dead is dead. Nevermind that I'd be really interested to see how they propose to have this abomination permit you to ignore off grid boosts. Because if they can do that, just remove off grid boosts entirely and fix the real problem.
If it removes you from any fleets you're in and doesn't permit being invited to them for the duration, that easily solves the OGB issue.
The wider OGB issue can be fixed right this very second if you don't mind melting the servers into slag, as CCP Fozzie has previously said.
As for "dead is dead", that seems like a gross oversimplification. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13383
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:00:00 -
[987] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:
"I has broken the sandbox because I said so, despite the fact that dojos are player made and destroyable"
Just like EVE Online stopped being a sandbox in 2005 with the first AT tournament right? It was all a lie.
As you have been told several times now AT takes place in space nobody but CCP can access and uses tools nobody but CCP has access to. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:01:00 -
[988] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
"I has broken the sandbox because I said so, despite the fact that dojos are player made and destroyable"
Just like EVE Online stopped being a sandbox in 2005 with the first AT tournament right? It was all a lie.
As you have been told several times now AT takes place in space nobody but CCP can access and uses tools nobody but CCP has access to.
And I told you over and over that it was for technical reasons and that dojos will fix it. I have a Ph.D |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:03:00 -
[989] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: If it removes you from any fleets you're in and doesn't permit being invited to them for the duration, that easily solves the OGB issue.
Which neatly removes the "it should exist because tournaments" argument.
Quote: As for "dead is dead", that seems like a gross oversimplification.
The result is the same, whether you died in your honor duel, or whether you died to a third party, you're still dead.
Although, this module could very well pave the way for the removal of the odious duelling mechanic, so they can un**** Crimewatch finally. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13383
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:05:00 -
[990] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:
And I told you over and over that it was for technical reasons and that dojos will fix it.
Doesn't change the fact that AT is not comparable to what happens in game as it happens in jove space and uses tools nobody has ever had access to. Please stop trying to use this lie. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2766
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:07:00 -
[991] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: If it removes you from any fleets you're in and doesn't permit being invited to them for the duration, that easily solves the OGB issue.
Which neatly removes the "it should exist because tournaments" argument.
I don't see how. Do 1v1s require being in a fleet? |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:09:00 -
[992] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Doesn't change the fact that AT is not comparable to what happens in game as it happens in jove space and uses tools nobody has ever had access to. Please stop trying to use this lie.
It didn't happen earlier in game just because CCP had no tools for it (hell this they only release this as a prototype in 2014..) you can't give players manual "moveme" and fit check commands, imagine the abuse..
My point is : it's in the game since 2005 and players have been trying to emulate that environment/gameplay for years.
Again I respect the fact that you don't like it, but don't try to say it's not in the game.
I have a Ph.D |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13385
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:11:00 -
[993] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:baltec1 wrote: Doesn't change the fact that AT is not comparable to what happens in game as it happens in jove space and uses tools nobody has ever had access to. Please stop trying to use this lie.
It didn't happen earlier in game just because CCP had no tools for it (hell this they only release this as a prototype in 2014..) you can't give players manual "moveme" and fit check commands, imagine the abuse.. My point is : it's in the game since 2005 and players have been trying to emulate that environment/gameplay for years. Again I respect the fact that you don't like it, but don't try to say it's not in the game.
It isn't.
We have never in the last 14 years had any mechanic in place to would stop me from attacking people partaking in a 1v1. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:13:00 -
[994] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: If it removes you from any fleets you're in and doesn't permit being invited to them for the duration, that easily solves the OGB issue.
Which neatly removes the "it should exist because tournaments" argument. I don't see how. Do 1v1s require being in a fleet?
No, but being in a fleet tournament sure does. About 80% of the "pro" side of the argument for this thing is "because Alliance Tournament hurr durr!".
If it doesn't allow that, it's literally pointless. On the flip side, if it does allow off grid boosts, it's literally pointless.
There is no good way this thing turns out. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:16:00 -
[995] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:It isn't.
We have never in the last 14 years had any mechanic in place to would stop me from attacking people partaking in a 1v1.
Yes, we had the AT/NEO tournaments and now dojos.
Again you should understand that ganking isn't the only way to interact with people in EVE Online and never was.
Eve is all about risk vs reward, I'm repeating myself because you elude this part over and over. I have a Ph.D |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2767
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:18:00 -
[996] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: If it removes you from any fleets you're in and doesn't permit being invited to them for the duration, that easily solves the OGB issue.
Which neatly removes the "it should exist because tournaments" argument. I don't see how. Do 1v1s require being in a fleet? No, but being in a fleet tournament sure does. About 80% of the "pro" side of the argument for this thing is "because Alliance Tournament hurr durr!". If it doesn't allow that, it's literally pointless. On the flip side, if it does allow off grid boosts, it's literally pointless. There is no good way this thing turns out.
Assuming that this were expanded in the future to allow larger groups beyond just 1v1 (and I'm not saying it will be or should be, mind you) it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect for it to either require all fleet members to be docked before the tournament can commence, forcibly move all fleet members into the area/automatically boundary-kill any who are off-grid at the time of commencement or simply auto-kick those people from fleet.
Again, it's just conjecture as nobody even knows if this will ever be expanded past 1v1. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:19:00 -
[997] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: Eve is all about risk vs reward, I'm repeating myself because you elude this part over and over.
And you're arguing for a frankly enormous reduction in the risk of dueling.
For no tradeoff, and no drawback. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:20:00 -
[998] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Again, it's just conjecture as nobody even knows if this will ever be expanded past 1v1.
Or exist in the first place, really. After the last few deployables I have doubts about everything to do with it, nevermind that the guy who programmed it has now left CCP entirely. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:23:00 -
[999] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Bamboozlement wrote: Eve is all about risk vs reward, I'm repeating myself because you elude this part over and over.
And you're arguing for a frankly enormous reduction in the risk of dueling. For no tradeoff, and no drawback.
That's only because people that duel atm are looking for a fair and controlled environment and duels are far from fair.
If most people that duel are ok with ogb links, pimped modules and implants and neut logi why would they join dojos? I have a Ph.D |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:26:00 -
[1000] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: That's only because people that duel atm are looking for a fair and controlled environment
And such a thing breaks the sandbox. Which means that the answer is "too bad".
Nevermind that you're not giving anything up in exchange for a massive reduction in your risk, what you are asking for in and of itself is unacceptable. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2767
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:28:00 -
[1001] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Again, it's just conjecture as nobody even knows if this will ever be expanded past 1v1.
Or exist in the first place, really. After the last few deployables I have doubts about everything to do with it, nevermind that the guy who programmed it has now left CCP entirely.
Granted. While I would love to see them come to TQ simply to revel in the unholy shitstorm of rage, tears and bittervet unsubs, I don't actually see it happening. Ever. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:31:00 -
[1002] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Bamboozlement wrote: That's only because people that duel atm are looking for a fair and controlled environment
And such a thing breaks the sandbox. Which means that the answer is "too bad". Nevermind that you're not giving anything up in exchange for a massive reduction in your risk, what you are asking for in and of itself is unacceptable.
Except that dojos are way more risky than duels, if you duel someone you can have a huge advantage over him by having the best modules/implants/ogb links and not only that you can always dock back and change your ship or avoid dying.
Dojos respect the sandbox philosophy : they are player made and destroyable, not only that but EVE Online had consensual fights in controlled environment since 2005 and players have been trying to emulate that environment/gameplay for years.
Please don't blame your poor reading comprehension and knowledge of game mechanics on me, thank you friend.
I have a Ph.D |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:34:00 -
[1003] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Granted. While I would love to see them come to TQ simply to revel in the unholy shitstorm of rage, tears and bittervet unsubs, I don't actually see it happening. Ever.
Heh, I don't know the CSM is pretty hyped about it and even if CCP Veritas is leaving I doubt CCP would drop a feature that could revitalize the game just because a minority of players with a meta-game agenda are against it.
Ironically it would be worse as a sisi only feature, a lot of people including me would probably play more on sisi than tq.
I have a Ph.D |
Trevor Dalech
Adeptus Assassinorum Silent Eviction
54
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:34:00 -
[1004] - Quote
What's to prevent players (say: me and my alt) to use this to make unassailable safe havens in enemy territory? |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2767
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:35:00 -
[1005] - Quote
Trevor Dalech wrote:What's to prevent players (say: me and my alt) to use this to make unassailable safe havens in enemy territory?
The fact that after five minutes, your safe haven is gone. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:36:00 -
[1006] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: Except that dojos are way more risky than duels
No, they are not. By definition they remove any possible outside influence (except boosts, since it's pretty obvious that they cannot actually do that).
Which means that the risk of being interfered with pretty much drops to zero.
Now, since your risk is all gone, what are you going to give up for it? I suggest that any ship destroyed automatically has no loot, which probably should be implemented anyway to help avoid RMT schemes that would arise from it.
In addition, perhaps a ten million isk fee per person to even activate it. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:38:00 -
[1007] - Quote
Trevor Dalech wrote:What's to prevent players (say: me and my alt) to use this to make unassailable safe havens in enemy territory?
Shooting the dojo would be a good start, what's the incentive to have a dojo in enemy territory since you can't leave the arena and a cloaky is a wayyyyyyyyy better scout. I have a Ph.D |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2767
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:42:00 -
[1008] - Quote
Since the forums are being bitchy about letting me actually post, much less edit, I'll just quote myself this time.
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Trevor Dalech wrote:What's to prevent players (say: me and my alt) to use this to make unassailable safe havens in enemy territory? The fact that after five minutes, your safe haven is gone.
I should also mention that as has been said, the dojo structure can be scanned and shot. Additionally, you need to be docked up to use it, as the dojo puts you into a ship assembled from the ships and fittings that it is stocked with. I don't know every group in EVE but if you're part of an alliance called "Silent Eviction", that says "wormholes" to me and .. you can't dock in wormholes. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:43:00 -
[1009] - Quote
You know what I just realized?
This whole thing is basically "No potions!" made manifest. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:45:00 -
[1010] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: No, they are not. By definition they remove any possible outside influence (except boosts, since it's pretty obvious that they cannot actually do that).
Which means that the risk of being interfered with pretty much drops to zero.
Now, since your risk is all gone, what are you going to give up for it? I suggest that any ship destroyed automatically has no loot, which probably should be implemented anyway to help avoid RMT schemes that would arise from it.
In addition, perhaps a ten million isk fee per person to even activate it.
"No they are not because I said so, despite the factual data you provided about duels being safer"
With the proper setup you can pick your duels and never die, it's impossible with dojos.
You lose the ability to use :
- pimped modules over someone with a t2 fit
- pimped implants
- OGB links
- neut logis
- stations
- friends/alts to bump
- mobile depot
It's simply not the same experience at all. I have a Ph.D |
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:47:00 -
[1011] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: "No they are not because I said so, despite the factual data you provided about duels being safer"
You provided no facts, and ignored my basic point. Presumably because you know that you cannot refute it.
Your risk of being interfered with by a third party drops to zero.
Since that is a huge reduction in risk, what are you willing to give up for it? You know, since you kept spouting about risk vs reward and all that. You are getting tons of risk taken away, now you have to pay for it.
I think not looting, paying ten million, and oh invalidating ship insurance would be a fair price.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:51:00 -
[1012] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Bamboozlement wrote: "No they are not because I said so, despite the factual data you provided about duels being safer"
You provided no facts, and ignored my basic point. Presumably because you know that you cannot refute it. Your risk of being interfered with by a third party drops to zero. Since that is a huge reduction in risk, what are you willing to give up for it? You know, since you kept spouting about risk vs reward and all that. You are getting tons of risk taken away, now you have to pay for it. I think not looting, paying ten million, and oh invalidating ship insurance would be a fair price.
I love how you quote one sentence and elude the rest of my post
Quote: With the proper setup you can pick your duels and never die, it's impossible with dojos.
You lose the ability to use :
- pimped modules over someone with a t2 fit
- pimped implants
- OGB links
- neut logis
- stations
- friends/alts to bump
- mobile depot
It's simply not the same experience at all.
This is factual data friend, please read ALL of my post (I know it's hard, but focus you can do it) before posting and embarrassing yourself.
And yes there should be no financial reward for dojos, that's the point. I have a Ph.D |
Meatbix
Screaming Hayabusa Neo-Bushido Movement
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:51:00 -
[1013] - Quote
As someone who has been on Duality and tried testing, screwing with this prototype feature...
Before I start, I have had to do this with alts and all on the one PC, so this may present some problems. All I can relate is my experience.
1. Dojo is obtained by redeem feature atm. 2. Dojo's are easy to deploy, just like the mobile base with HUGE cargo capacity. 3. Easy to stock, just drag the stuff from your cargo to its cargo as normal. 4. You can warp to the Dojo without the need for scanning them down, they show up in local plain as day. 5. you can enter the Dojo finder/match making system when you are in space or docked in station, a local station. 6. All local Dojo's show up in the match maker, you select your Dojo and your preferred fit from those available in the Dojo interface [I just stocked it with 400mm plate rifters cause I am lazy.] and hit the ready button. From there both of my combatant alts got stuck in GÇ£Match Found...StandbyGÇ¥ limbo. So thatGÇÖs as far as I can talk about that. Later after the Warp to experiment was concluded, I was not able to warp out of the GÇ£instanceGÇ¥ to either station or an out gate or any other celestial. I was able to activate all modules but the ship did not move or respond in any other way. I had to exit both clients to leave the match making limbo. Logging back on with the combatants they spawned in space and warped back to the approximate location of the arena created for their match.
F**king with Dojo's
1. You can warp right to them they show up in local. 2. You can use combat probes to scan down the ships [in this case Rifter frigates] inside the GÇ£instanceGÇ¥. 3. Upon warping to one of them I went straight to the middle of the sun and got bounced back out at a bajillion miles an hour. 4.Upon warping to the other, I landed approx 10 000 k away and had it on short scan. I could warp no further dues to the usual interference message you get [GÇ£You cannot warp there because natural phenomena are disrupting the warpGÇ¥.]. I could align and MWD towards the ship though. 5 mis to cross 10 000 k might be a bit unpossible :P I was unable to get to the frigate within the 5 mins stated. But as the two combatants were in limbo and the arena did not close, I was able to MWD all the way to using align to in the drop down in the scanning results interface to fly the 10 000 k right up to the frigate in the arena. I was not destroyed at 125 Km from the frigate combatant or the beacon it was sitting next to,. The other combatant was not in the arena but some where in limbo in the match making system. Scannable but the result warped me to the middle of the sun. So the result of this little experiment...If you have a ship that is capable ot traversing the 10 000 k in the 5 mins you might have a shot at pew pewing the combatants, but then again not as there was a problem with the whole GÇ¥in limboGÇ¥ thing. But then again it might have been just what was needed to actually prove you can get there.
5. The GÇ£InstanceGÇ¥ was created 6.7 AU from the Dojo itself. Both Pilots entered the system docked in a local station. The Dojo was around 0.5 AU form the sun in a GÇ£Safe spotGÇ¥ now fully warpable from the overview in local.
6. Shooting the Dojo: The Dojo went in to reinforced mode at about 2/3 shields, the stated timer in the info is 2 days. The owner of the Dojo was not notified, and the shooter was given a GÇ£Target is invulnerable notification.GÇ¥ The GÇ£instanceGÇ¥ did not close, neither pilot was ejected from the match making system, or limbo.
I then went to a 0.7 system and deployed a Dojo. My other character began to shoot it before it had GÇ£onlinedGÇ¥ He got a suspect timer and a weapons timer. Concord did not show up. Green safety prevented any aggressive action, yellow was all good with me shooting it. I then set my safety to red and shot my character that deployed the Dojo and concord came a long and kicked my teeth in.
Take from this what you will. I am just hoping to contribute some actual research to this discussion.
I would love it if other people got onto Duality to test my findings out and look at other aspects of this. At the moment there is a lot of back and forth between opposing camps with very little time put into actually looking at these things on Duality.
My results I expect are flawed due to the fact that all characters involved were mine on the same PC. Having a few people do this may produce better results.
But as I have said each and every time I have been on its only been my three characters for testing.
Cheers. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9909
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:54:00 -
[1014] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: I love how you quote one sentence and elude the rest of my post
It isn't relevant. You keep on ignoring what I have been talking about the whole time.
I do not give one flying rat's ass about your QQ about neutral reps and faction modules, I am talking about the risk of interference by a third party.
Quote:This is factual data friend, please read ALL of my post (I know it's hard, but focus you can do it) before posting and embarrassing yourself.
I can almost taste the irony. Are you illiterate or what? Are you having this dictated to you? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Brink Albosa
Screaming Hayabusa Neo-Bushido Movement
42
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:56:00 -
[1015] - Quote
Awesome writeup Meat |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
214
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 14:58:00 -
[1016] - Quote
A lot of players have read this prototype concept and considered that the "instanced space that can't be affected from the outside" is against EVE and what it stands for. Although I agree with this, I also look at the possible introduction of these Dojos from the other side of the mirror. Unfortunately, we have too many people in today's EVE who just want easy kills and ability to disrupt another person's gameplay over working hard to achieve a great kill and perceived reward. For example, consider gank catalysts vs an exhumer; the catalyst pilots require a very low amount of SP and less than 5mil/catalyst to fully fit and achieve the needed level of DPS to "extract carebear tears". However, the exhumer pilot must spend months training the required skills and spend a lot of time working towards the ISK to buy and fit out their exhumer. The exhumer pilot could be properly fit but is still very easily gankable by the catalyst crew. So what we see is an imbalance in the ease of gameplay disruption vs the ease of avoiding said disruptions. So what I'm asking the players to do is this: allow players to have 1 option while in space that allows them to practice pvp'ing, run tournaments, have honorable 1v1/small gang fleet fights, etc. that cannot be stopped by a cyno hot drop, ganking, or neutral logi, etc. with the knowledge that although you cannot directly flop your rage filled epeen out during their fighting, you still have plenty of tools to indirectly interrupt their fighting before and after the fight.
These Dojos will ultimately add a whole new level into the mix of ways to interact in space. It's important to remember that they may take a small percentage of players away from the open world and that we may even see an influx of subscriptions from players who enjoy the tournament style gameplay, but at the end of the day EVE differentiates itself by making every loss have meaning unlike other games that have had their open worlds destroyed due to arena style PVP. You don't get your stuff back, having the best "gear" doesn't mean **** if you don't have the right skills and the knowledge of how to actually fly your ship, and every ship and module lost has to be replaced again. If someone is willing to just burn plex to constantly PVP in the dojo so be it but for the rest of EVE this has a positive affect. Miners are in the belt mining for minerals, industrialist are working hard to manufacture and invent new ships and modules, explorers are out in space collecting more faction loot to sell to the 23.5/7 dojo masters, people are fighting to control the best systems and trade routes to secure a profitable tournament system, and the list goes on. All of these get people in space and get people interacting even more.
On the idea of Dojos, the one change I would like to see is a real investment in the size and structure of dojo to reflect something akin to an Olympian stadium setup; different structures for different "sports". Ideally, there would be 4 sizes of dojo: small, medium, and large, open. The small would allow for all frigate class ships to enter and train/compete/duel. The medium and large would allow for all medium class ships (cruisers-BCs) and BS respectively. The open would allow for any combination of ships to compete and would be most similar to the current AT/NEO setup. The cost of these new structures would be comparative to their gigantic super structures requiring minerals, PI materials, and commodity items like janitors, marines, etc. (these things have no real use in EVE atm) to build.
In high-sec, each faction has set up its own small, medium, large, and open dojo. These Dojos can never be destroyed and are always open to players with proper faction standings (back story: factions opened these to train their navies and then later opened them to capsuleer use in order to watch how capsuleers flew their ships in order to better train their own navies). In order to use the NPC dojo: -Usage Fee determined by standings for training/dueling/etc in the dojo -Select a ship load out (determined by the players?) and shown a price to use that ship -If you choose to use a ship, you pay a deposit for the cost of the ship -if you win/tie, deposit is returned and if you lose, deposit is kept by the faction -If you win/tie, the ship you chose is given back to the dojo -No loot/ISK reward is ever given when using the NPC dojo
Alongside the faction NPC Dojos, players would have the ability to anchor their own Dojos in high-sec, low-sec, and null-sec. Although I'm not a big fan of imposing arbitrary limitations, I do believe some are in order, especially for high-sec. 1) Due to Concord, these structures would only be attackable through a wardec, which means anchor rights need to be limited to player made corps only. 2) There needs to be a sever limit to the number of Dojos that can be anchored across EVE, again due to wardecs and it's a conflict driver: System Limit - High-sec There would be a limit of 1 class of dojo per region, excluding the Faction NPC's Dojos. This means that only 1 small, medium, large, and open class Dojo can be constructed per region. [the goal here is to introduce a huge conflict driver to control the best areas, i.e. the easiest to restock and get participants to the dojo safely and spur conflict as competition gets crowded]
System Limit - Low-sec & Null-sec There would be a limit of 1 class of dojo per constellation in a region. This means that only 1 small, medium, large, and open class Dojo can be constructed per constellation within a region. [the goal here is to introduce a huge conflict driver to control the best areas, i.e. the easiest to restock and get participants to the dojo safely and spur conflict as competition gets crowded]
Continued below.... --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
214
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:04:00 -
[1017] - Quote
3) Specific systems and/or regions need to disallow the anchoring of Dojos, like Jita or the Forge region, in order to help spread out system load and limit crowding 4) The Dojos must have a consistent location that can easily be found within a system: Location - Planet Side Spectators The new Dojos would only be anchorable off planets that have no customs office or POCO already anchored. [the idea is that prior to these being built it would spur a lot of side conflicts as people fight to destroy POCOs and control the right to anchor their own dojo]
You may, at this point, be thinking "wait a minute, I thought this was just supposed to be a quick, mobile deployable structure?" Well ideally, that makes these things not as fun and really limits what they do and how they can be interacted with plus the artwork that could be involved. Side note: EVE artist are awesome! The idea is to make these new Dojos a mix of POCO gantries, POS structures, and station environments in their appearance. Imagine this: It's tournament day in the Federation and nothing else in your life has meant more to you than this. Today is your day to prove your skills against the best capsuleers from around the region. You warp to Planet 4, the recently new terra formed planet in system. As you come out of warp, you are instantly stunned by the design and beauty of the dojo. As a Gallentean, you've always taken pride in what it means to be apart of the Federation. You are shocked by the pulsating, golden hue of the arena boundaries knowing full well that inside is your chance to earn glory and should you be so unfortunate to steer outside the field, the arena's sentries will obliterate your ship in a matter of seconds. You get closer to inspect the sentries and think to yourself, "these look like the turrets mounted onto a fabled Erebus you've heard so many stories of as a child." As you move along the dojo, you are struck by the brilliant green bands orbiting the golden sphere. Upon further inspection you notice that the green bands, 3 of them to be exact, seem to be generating the sphere. As you make finals checks to dock with the dojo, your eyes catch sight of the planet below. Every few minutes there seems to be dozens of planet to station shuttles breaking orbit and moving to dock with dojo. "Spectators," you muse, "come to watch me win!" Suddenly and without warning, your ship is being warp scrambled and shot to pieces by a local pirate, and it's in that moment that you remember you came to low-sec for the tournament. As you enter hull, the pirate comes in over your ship's comms and gives you a message you'll never forget, "Welcome to Eha!"
TL:DR these structures should be actual structures with designs that reflect the core ideas of their faction and make you go "wow, that's impressive."
Finally, some features that would make the Dojos customizable and give players the tools necessary to allow them to run their tourneys or training sessions: People: -1v1 to 10v10 fights and anything in between -1v2 fights and anything in between -Camera man for Twitch streaming: Only has frigate with MWD and AB fit Cannot be shot Has extended "look at" ranges -3rd party viewing? -set all targets to limited engagement upon starting a fight and ending it upon stopping the fight
Rules: -ability to ban ships for a tournament -set arena timers: Maximum 10mins -ability to set scaleable reverse tidi Can be overtime play Can be used to start a fight Maximum 5 minutes -ability to restrict ship types to just t1, faction, t2 -ability to restrict module tier to just t1, t2, faction, dead space -can set a fee for using -can set a "last man standing" feature Requires that other dueler/fleet must be die for the fight to end Add environmental effects after 1mins of reverse tidi to avoid abuse of never ending fights -ability to set different WH effects
Rewards -set tax fee for using dojo Can set fee by standings like POCOs -ability to payout out reward for winning a fight Betting Setting odds Distributing winnings
On the topic of rewards, maybe let players do this on their own as it provides more ways to cheat and steal as opposed to having a guaranteed outcome?
Dojo Structural Rules -must be docked at the dojo to fight (questionable on this one as it provides an extremely easy way to camp/gank a target after a fight finished. Spawn targets within 1au of the dojo after a fight finishes which still allows a quick prober to catch slow targets?) -dojo can be reinforced at anytime Items inside the dojo can still be removed All fights are disabled when a dojo hits reinforced Current fight finishes -allow haulers to dock with the dojo and move cargo -allow couriers to be delivered to a dojo -Dojos cannot be unanchored once anchored Can be transferred to a new owner
Limitations/Avoid Exploits -limit all activities inside the 125km sphere to only work within the sphere and all outside effects to have no effect on the outside Links, D-scan (on-grid overview would still work to show targets inside and outside of the 125km sphere), Probes, Etc.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the reason we go to an instanced area probably has to do with coding specific rules. If this is true, it means we can code a very specific area that has x,y,z affects and can only influenced from on-grid as the game would count it as it's own "system" --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:04:00 -
[1018] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It isn't relevant. You keep on ignoring what I have been talking about the whole time.
I do not give one flying rat's ass about your QQ about neutral reps and faction modules, I am talking about the risk of interference by a third party.
"It isn't relevant because I said so, factual data about game mechanics isn't relevant when talking about said game mechanic because I said so "
You said that dojos are basically duels with no risk, I showed you that duels and dojos are a complete different experience.
Not only that, I said over and over that there is (and it's perfectly fine) no rewards for a dojo player.
If you don't understand why it's ok for people to screw with duels and why it's not for dojos then you don't understand what risk vs reward is all about.
Not surprising coming from people that think eve is a game about "ganking people at anytime because I want to".
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I can almost taste the irony. Are you illiterate or what? Are you having this dictated to you?
Please don't blame your reading comprehension issues on me, thank you friend. I have a Ph.D |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9910
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:07:00 -
[1019] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:So what we see is an imbalance in the ease of gameplay disruption vs the ease of avoiding said disruptions.
Just wanted to interject here.
You are dead wrong in your comparison of catalysts and exhumers. The pricetag on one of them is a result of their combat ability. The pricetag on the other is a result of it's ability to make money with zero effort. Of those, the latter rightly has a higher cost for that ability.
Nevermind that, if you really want to talk about an unbalanced ratio, the Procurer requires several times more isk to actually kill than it costs. But then the game is not based around an assumption of isk tanking anyway, which kinda throws your first argument out the window a second time. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9910
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:08:00 -
[1020] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: You said that dojos are basically duels with no risk
No, I didn't.
Learn to read. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
|
Rammix
TheMurk
301
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:09:00 -
[1021] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:dexington wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? is this really the crowd you think should be rewarded?, do you really think sugar coated bullshit pvp is going to add anything to the sandbox? I see this as a low entry tournament environment, and I for one can't see AT or NEO as sugar coated bullshit pvp. "AT and NEO" - couple hundreds of people have a tournament once a year (or several months.. not sure about NEO cycle), not anywhere on TQ -- not a problem. An instanced "fair tournament" for everyone everywhere on TQ - IS a problem.
CCP, stop trying to casualize eve and to turn it into a themepark for kids under 12 y.o. Just stop. OpenSUSE 13.1, wine 1.7.20 Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:14:00 -
[1022] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Bamboozlement wrote: You said that dojos are basically duels with no risk
No, I didn't. Learn to read.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: And you're arguing for a frankly enormous reduction in the risk of dueling.
So now we both agree that dojos and dueling are not the same thing ? Do you understand now why you shouldn't be able to screw with dojos ? Do you understand the risk vs reward philosophy ?
I have a Ph.D |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:16:00 -
[1023] - Quote
Rammix wrote: "AT and NEO" - couple hundreds of people have a tournament once a year (or several months.. not sure about NEO cycle), not anywhere on TQ -- not a problem. An instanced "fair tournament" for everyone everywhere on TQ - IS a problem.
CCP, stop trying to casualize eve and to turn it into a themepark for kids under 12 y.o. Just stop.
How is tournament pvp more casual than gatecamping? How is tournament pvp more casual than jumping to a cyno and pressing f1? How is tournament pvp more casual than suicide ganking a retriever ?
Please respond.
I have a Ph.D |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:22:00 -
[1024] - Quote
Good book, I recommend it for people that think factual data "doesn't count" because they said so.
Also nice rebuttal to my post, as always. I have a Ph.D |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2767
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:23:00 -
[1025] - Quote
Rammix wrote:l0rd carlos wrote:dexington wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? is this really the crowd you think should be rewarded?, do you really think sugar coated bullshit pvp is going to add anything to the sandbox? I see this as a low entry tournament environment, and I for one can't see AT or NEO as sugar coated bullshit pvp. "AT and NEO" - couple hundreds of people have a tournament once a year (or several months.. not sure about NEO cycle), not anywhere on TQ -- not a problem. An instanced "fair tournament" for everyone everywhere on TQ - IS a problem. CCP, stop trying to casualize eve and to turn it into a themepark for kids under 12 y.o. Just stop.
Actually ... the AT does take place on TQ, using ships, modules, ammo and drones acquired from TQ's market. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9910
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:24:00 -
[1026] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:factual data
Nothing you posted constitutes the words I just quoted, and you repeatedly ignore what I am actually talking about to keep pounding the table about your talking points as though QQ about faction modules actually means anything. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:29:00 -
[1027] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nothing you posted constitutes the words I just quoted, and you repeatedly ignore what I am actually talking about to keep pounding the table about your talking points as though QQ about faction modules actually means anything.
Again my friend, you have to say why it's not factual data and prove it, you can't just say "it's not factual data because I said so" : it's just childish behavior and denial, which is extremely delicious to read for me.
Here is what I said
Quote: With the proper setup you can pick your duels and never die, it's impossible with dojos.
You lose the ability to use :
- pimped modules over someone with a t2 fit
- pimped implants
- OGB links
- neut logis
- stations
- friends/alts to bump
- mobile depot
It's simply not the same experience at all.
Prove me that you can't do any of this during a duel, prove me that you can do it in a dojo.
Then I would agree that dojos and duels are the same, and that the risk vs reward design make sense so you should be able to warp into dojo pockets.
Go ahead, I'll be waiting ahah. I have a Ph.D |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9910
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:34:00 -
[1028] - Quote
Once again, you just can't read, can you?
I am talking about interference by a third party.
Not *any* of that petty bullshit you are crying about, more than one of which is not effected by this fairy tale dojo you seem to think will ever see Tranquility. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:41:00 -
[1029] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Once again, you just can't read, can you?
I am talking about interference by a third party.
Not *any* of that petty bullshit you are crying about, more than one of which is not effected by this fairy tale dojo you seem to think will ever see Tranquility.
My point always was : the differences between duels and dojos is exactly why you can't interfere.
You still don't understand the risk vs reward concept, do you?
Thanks for not disproving the factual data I provided, as expected.
And I would be more than happy with dojos in sisi, I'll be sure to poach a maximum of people to play on sisi so less targets for edgy gankers if they don't adapt to it.
God, I shouldn't derive so much pleasure from this.
I have a Ph.D |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2768
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:43:00 -
[1030] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Once again, you just can't read, can you?
I am talking about interference by a third party.
Not *any* of that petty bullshit you are crying about, more than one of which is not effected by this fairy tale dojo you seem to think will ever see Tranquility. My point always was : the differences between duels and dojos is exactly why you can't interfere. You still don't understand the risk vs reward concept, do you? Thanks for not disproving the factual data I provided, as expected. And I would be more than happy with dojos in sisi, I'll be sure to poach a maximum of people to play on sisi so less targets for edgy gankers if they don't adapt to it. God, I shouldn't derive so much pleasure from this.
You know, Mr. Bamboozlement, sir... maybe ISD Ezwal will delete my post for this, but ... hats belong on your head, not your ass. Just a thought you might like to consider. |
|
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:49:00 -
[1031] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: You know, Mr. Bamboozlement
Ahaha, love some banter.
You're probably right, but they are asking for it so heh. S¦ü( Gùö a¦¬Gùö)päÅ
I have a Ph.D |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
214
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:51:00 -
[1032] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yun Kuai wrote:So what we see is an imbalance in the ease of gameplay disruption vs the ease of avoiding said disruptions. Just wanted to interject here. You are dead wrong in your comparison of catalysts and exhumers. The pricetag on one of them is a result of their combat ability. The pricetag on the other is a result of it's ability to make money with zero effort. Of those, the latter rightly has a higher cost for that ability. Nevermind that, if you really want to talk about an unbalanced ratio, the Procurer requires several times more isk to actually kill than it costs. But then the game is not based around an assumption of isk tanking anyway, which kinda throws your first argument out the window a second time.
You misunderstood the point of that phrase, it's not just about ISK. It's about players who want to disrupt others' game play having exponentially more tools to do so vs players who want to do a task/event uninterrupted. The cat vs hulk example is just that, an example. It's about showing that even if the hulk does everything right they really don't have any viable ways to avoid getting ganked or interrupted playing their game, except dock or move to another system which means they can be followed. The dojo gives players 1 tool to avoid interruption to accomplish a task for 5-15 mins in an environment where ships are exploding.
Quote:Yun Kuai you talk about ppl wanting easy kills are against this, but the dojo's ARE about getting pew pew easy and fast.
like others have said, when we are playing in the sandbox, theres the hunt and much more risk involved than these dojo's.
neither side of the argument gets to lord their PvP over the other.
In the same argument, using a jabber ping to amass a force to log on and get instantly Titan bridged on to a target is essentially the same: getting pew pew easy and fast. And from the receiving players end, there isn't anything they can do about it. Remember that when you say you can't affect dojo PVP bc I can't affect "giant blob just bridged on me" PVP. As for the more risk out of the dojo argument: all ships are still getting popped that aren't a training session. Just like the billions that are spent for the AT, billions would be spent by teams competing on tournaments.
I never said the dojo arena is better or should be the only one. In fact I said it would help the overall EVE environment. The sandbox is exactly what it should be, a place where all players have a way to do something. Not everyone likes getting bridged on or blobbed to death but it's still allowed in game and apparently not everyone likes the idea of a fair place to have coordinated fights but it's also being considered being brought into the game. Both will have a place to survive in game and won't step on each other's toes. As I mentioned in the post before, there are still plenty of ways to affect someone else's quick and easy fix PVP --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Rammix
TheMurk
301
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:52:00 -
[1033] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Rammix wrote: "AT and NEO" - couple hundreds of people have a tournament once a year (or several months.. not sure about NEO cycle), not anywhere on TQ -- not a problem. An instanced "fair tournament" for everyone everywhere on TQ - IS a problem.
CCP, stop trying to casualize eve and to turn it into a themepark for kids under 12 y.o. Just stop.
How is tournament pvp more casual than gatecamping? How is tournament pvp more casual than jumping to a cyno and pressing f1? How is tournament pvp more casual than suicide ganking a retriever ? Please respond. The last sentence was not about AT, it relates to eve's development tendencies in general. OpenSUSE 13.1, wine 1.7.20 Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread |
Rammix
TheMurk
301
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:57:00 -
[1034] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Rammix wrote:l0rd carlos wrote:dexington wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? is this really the crowd you think should be rewarded?, do you really think sugar coated bullshit pvp is going to add anything to the sandbox? I see this as a low entry tournament environment, and I for one can't see AT or NEO as sugar coated bullshit pvp. "AT and NEO" - couple hundreds of people have a tournament once a year (or several months.. not sure about NEO cycle), not anywhere on TQ -- not a problem. An instanced "fair tournament" for everyone everywhere on TQ - IS a problem. CCP, stop trying to casualize eve and to turn it into a themepark for kids under 12 y.o. Just stop. Actually ... the AT does take place on TQ, using ships, modules, ammo and drones acquired from TQ's market. My point is, couple hundreds of people taking part in an isolated turnament once a year -- is completely different from instanced "fair pvp" instruments available for everyone and everywhere they're trying to introduce. Screw instanced gameplay.
Instead of thinking about fair pvp I, in their place, would be thinking about ways to "unfairly" pull people out of stations or come visit them in their docked ships (maybe except highsec) in-station. OpenSUSE 13.1, wine 1.7.20 Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 15:57:00 -
[1035] - Quote
Rammix wrote: The last sentence was not about AT, it relates to eve's development tendencies in general.
You mean eve marketing tendencies? Because while it's true that stuff making news for eve is always either big blobby battles or big awox/theft/scam consensual pvp exist in eve since 2005 and players tried to emulate that gameplay for years.
Eve has clunky, legacy stuff like POS management or more recently updated the indudstry UI, CCP fixing that stuff doesn't mean the game is getting more casual.
Should we suffer with low new players retention and bad tools because it existed for years? Remember this is a videogame.. I have a Ph.D |
Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
157
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:08:00 -
[1036] - Quote
Interference by 3rd parties, heh.
Once again, two players actually agreeing to a fair duel just warp to a safe and no one is ever interfering. If both players want to agree to such rules - a dojo - that's their choice. You couldn't interfere anyways.
With that said, tournaments in today's EVE - especially large ones - would attract enough attention so 3rd parties could indeed interfere. And so while the idea of a dojo might seem to make this impossible, it in fact does not.
The dojos just need to be designed in a way so that 3rd parties can interfere. This means no reinforcement timers and no ridiculous amounts of EHP. With a small gang, it should take them several dozen minutes to break through an undefended dojo, making the participants vulnerable. With a large gang, it should take them only a few minutes to do so.
This means a small group can shut down a dojo eventually, but can't directly interfere in a fight that is currently going on. A large gang can break through in time to shut down a match that just started.
This also means the dojo owners can defend their structure, leading to lots of emergent gameplay as defenders and tournament participants scramble to keep the dojo alive so the tournament can keep going. |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
130
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:10:00 -
[1037] - Quote
I vote no, most pvpers in empire while may be solo also have alts/friends as i watch them and are in it for the troll/tears, in low and null you have roaming gangs and gate camps. with my years in eve i dont see it being used alot outside of actual possible tournaments "Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mine" -Dr. Smith |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9910
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:10:00 -
[1038] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote:This means no reinforcement timers and no ridiculous amounts of EHP.
It has a 48 hour reinforcement timer. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
547
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:12:00 -
[1039] - Quote
Why does "sandbox" automatically imply that every other kid in the game has to be able to kick over your sandcastle all the time?
It's not like anything of value will enter the game through the dojo. Real ships, purchased with real effort, will still explode inside the dojo.
If it is properly implemented it will not affect Eve outside the dojo at all. It will just be one place where we don't see the bad things about Eve: no station undock games, no neutral remote repairing, no neutral off-grid boosting, etc. - all those things that make high sec space terrible.
Are you really concerned that this will make people not want to take part in "real PVP" or other content within the game? At most this replaces duels on the Jita undock or "meet me on the sun at zero." For me, it could never replace the thrill of owning and defending my little corner of space or going to hunt some other player. As long as it does not allow me to escape from a nonconsenual PVP encounter through letting me magic myself into the dojo from anywhere in space or help me get out of a station camp (activate dojo duel in my jump freighter, warp out to dojo, jump out, or log off in dojo, log back in five minutes later out in random safe spot and jump out, etc.), there are no issues with this thing.
I am assuming that people have to anchor the dojo out there in space and that it can be destroyed like any other deployable. I am also assuming that you must undock to fill it up. So, perhaps you cannot throw sand in the other kids' eyes during that five minute fight, but you can still gank them when they stock the dojo with officer mods for their elite samurai honorable 1v1.
Get over yourselves. The sky is not falling. This is not instances PVE. This is not pay-to-win. This is just new content. If it keeps a few more players active and results in more space ships exploding and other excitement in Eve, that can only be good for the game. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1540
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:13:00 -
[1040] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
We have never in the last 14 years had any mechanic in place to would stop me from attacking people partaking in a 1v1.
Because we haven't then we shouldn't is a very weak argument. Step back and look at that one before I reducto ad absurdum all over it.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
|
Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
157
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:23:00 -
[1041] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: We have never in the last 14 years had any mechanic in place to would stop me from attacking people partaking in a 1v1.
We had never in a span of13.5 years had any mechanic in place that would allow us to moon mine in 0.4 systems. Is that a fair argument for removing the recently added moon mining in 0.4 systems?
Beyond which, when two trusting parties decide to duel in the middle of a moon in a corner system, you can't interfere anyways. Not unless one of them gets you to interfere. Which brings us back to the same argument - two people in a dojo are agreeing not to do that. Their choice, not yours.
I do agree with you though in that it should always be mechanically possible to do so. And so I have no problem with a large enough force being able to shut down a dojo during a fight. They need to balance the feature is all, instead of listening to scare mongering that expansion of AT mechanics into player hands will somehow turn EVE into WoW |
Rammix
TheMurk
301
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:23:00 -
[1042] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: Eve has clunky, legacy stuff like POS management or more recently updated the indudstry UI, CCP fixing that stuff doesn't mean the game is getting more casual.
Should we suffer with low new players retention and bad tools because it existed for years? Remember this is a videogame..
Did they revamp pos management? I missed something? They choose shiney stuff over smart stuff. They choose casual gameplay over hardcore gameplay (there are some exclusions though). They would even remove all the "spreadsheets" and make eve another quick-time event game for gamepads if they could.
I prefer old clunky hardcore eve instead of a gonna-be-theme-park. Don't you see that they're choosing pacifistic carebears and casual players as their main target audience?
Bamboozlement wrote: consensual pvp exist in eve since 2005 and players tried to emulate that gameplay for years.
If people want to have a duel - ok, but game mechanics should allow other players interfere if they wish and if the duelists haven't taken enough precautions. Forget about "fair pvp", eve was invented as a dark and harsh environment with no safety (and stations should've stopped being safe places long long ago), they shouldn't try to change that part. OpenSUSE 13.1, wine 1.7.20 Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
547
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:26:00 -
[1043] - Quote
Rammix wrote: Instead of thinking about fair pvp I, in their place, would be thinking about ways to "unfairly" pull people out of stations or come visit them in their docked ships (maybe except highsec) in-station.
Instead of thinking about ways to retain players and make it more fun, you are thinking of ways to drive everyone away from Eve who cannot log in 24/7. Yeah, that's a great marketing strategy. Right up there next to destructible stations. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9910
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:34:00 -
[1044] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Rammix wrote: Instead of thinking about fair pvp I, in their place, would be thinking about ways to "unfairly" pull people out of stations or come visit them in their docked ships (maybe except highsec) in-station.
Instead of thinking about ways to retain players and make it more fun, you are thinking of ways to drive everyone away from Eve who cannot log in 24/7. Yeah, that's a great marketing strategy. Right up there next to destructible stations.
Because the inevitable spamming of Jita with these freaking things is totally going to be a big player draw, right?
Or is it one of those "If what I want isn't catered to, the game will die!" things? I think you'll find if you look, that your niche doesn't mean much. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13389
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:38:00 -
[1045] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:baltec1 wrote:
We have never in the last 14 years had any mechanic in place to would stop me from attacking people partaking in a 1v1.
Because we haven't then we shouldn't is a very weak argument. Step back and look at that one before I reducto ad absurdum all over it. m
Using that logic EVE should add pandas. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Rammix
TheMurk
301
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:43:00 -
[1046] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote: The dojos just need to be designed in a way so that 3rd parties can interfere. This means no reinforcement timers and no ridiculous amounts of EHP. With a small gang, it should take them several dozen minutes to break through an undefended dojo, making the participants vulnerable. With a large gang, it should take them only a few minutes to do so.
This means a small group can shut down a dojo eventually, but can't directly interfere in a fight that is currently going on. A large gang can break through in time to shut down a match that just started.
This also means the dojo owners can defend their structure, leading to lots of emergent gameplay as defenders and tournament participants scramble to keep the dojo alive so the tournament can keep going.
Interesting point. Then it should not be a magical space inside a structure or pocket in space. Instead, something looking like a forcefield would be a sane solution. Easily scannable, or even visible in overview like cynos. OpenSUSE 13.1, wine 1.7.20 Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1910
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:43:00 -
[1047] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:
In the same argument, using a jabber ping to amass a force to log on and get instantly Titan bridged on to a target is essentially the same: getting pew pew easy and fast. And from the receiving players end, there isn't anything they can do about it. Remember that when you say you can't affect dojo PVP bc I can't affect "giant blob just bridged on me" PVP. As for the more risk out of the dojo argument: all ships are still getting popped that aren't a training session. Just like the billions that are spent for the AT, billions would be spent by teams competing on tournaments.
I never said the dojo arena is better or should be the only one. In fact I said it would help the overall EVE environment. The sandbox is exactly what it should be, a place where all players have a way to do something. Not everyone likes getting bridged on or blobbed to death but it's still allowed in game and apparently not everyone likes the idea of a fair place to have coordinated fights but it's also being considered being brought into the game. Both will have a place to survive in game and won't step on each other's toes. As I mentioned in the post before, there are still plenty of ways to affect someone else's quick and easy fix PVP
except someone put in the work to know whether they should be pinging or not. and like wise you can affect a blob just bridging on you.
the risk of facing what is in front of you within known rules is far less than the risk of facing what is in front of you plus anyone who wants to come along with absolutely no restrictions as to how many of whatever they want to bring.
the idea that dojo's are as risky as the greater sandbox as a whole is completely false.
again, sandbox means everyone can do what they want. so how is this idea that prevents ppl from hunting you in these 'instances' sandbox? it may not step on my toes much, but if i want to kill you for some vendetta and youre in this space i cant. at that moment the sandbox is no longer a sandbox. even if it lasts only 5 minutes. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2771
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:45:00 -
[1048] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:baltec1 wrote:
We have never in the last 14 years had any mechanic in place to would stop me from attacking people partaking in a 1v1.
Because we haven't then we shouldn't is a very weak argument. Step back and look at that one before I reducto ad absurdum all over it. m Using that logic EVE should add pandas.
...do you even read what you write? |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
547
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:50:00 -
[1049] - Quote
Personally, I live in 0.0 and don't expect I'll ever use one of these, except maybe for a corp tournament. I have no interest in honorable 1v1 combat. I do have an interest in player retention. My 7.5 years in Eve has not taught me that making Eve even more hardcore and require even more time and dedication will improve it at all.
There will be a lot of these in Jita is not a valid argument against them. Or, if you like, put a space rental cost on them and add another ISK sink. You want one in Jita? Fine, that will be 1 million ISK/minute to anchor it in that space. Out in that high sec island on the other side of the universe it's 1 ISK/minute. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Rammix
TheMurk
301
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:51:00 -
[1050] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Rammix wrote: Instead of thinking about fair pvp I, in their place, would be thinking about ways to "unfairly" pull people out of stations or come visit them in their docked ships (maybe except highsec) in-station.
Instead of thinking about ways to retain players and make it more fun, you are thinking of ways to drive everyone away from Eve who cannot log in 24/7. Yeah, that's a great marketing strategy. Right up there next to destructible stations. Lol? If you don't want to risk - don't log in, or use a combination of precautions like cloaking or pos's. Except highsec, maybe. Low security space, no concord, lots of pirates, but anybody can live in a station for years with 100% safety -- wrong approach. Null security, no concord, no sentries, no penalties, attack whoever you wish, but still anybody can stay docked in a station if he gets inside it and be 100% safe -- wrong approach. Even in high security, suicide ganking inside stations would be sane. Eve was not, is not and - I hope - will not be a safe game. OpenSUSE 13.1, wine 1.7.20 Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread |
|
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
596
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:53:00 -
[1051] - Quote
Precision Zero wrote:Where is the dislike button?
"A way to find PVP without flying through dozens of empty systems, EVE IS DYING!!!!1111!1$#@#$!!!!"
People these days How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2771
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:53:00 -
[1052] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: sandbox means everyone can do what they want.
It actually doesn't mean that. It means that the players are given the tools to make their own content and shape the game world themselves, as opposed to themeparks where the content is provided for you and there is little or no player effect on the game world as a whole.
Sandbox doesn't mean "I can do whatever I want". It means "I can decide for myself what I want to do" and yes there is a very big distinction.
|
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
596
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:55:00 -
[1053] - Quote
dexington wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find a fight, or even fit a ship? is this really the crowd you think should be rewarded?, do you really think sugar coated bullshit pvp is going to add anything to the sandbox?
Oh I'm sorry, is the fact I don't have 3 hours to dedicate to flying around looking for someone who is willing to engaged without 2:1 odds a problem for you? How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2771
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 16:57:00 -
[1054] - Quote
Rammix wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Rammix wrote: Instead of thinking about fair pvp I, in their place, would be thinking about ways to "unfairly" pull people out of stations or come visit them in their docked ships (maybe except highsec) in-station.
Instead of thinking about ways to retain players and make it more fun, you are thinking of ways to drive everyone away from Eve who cannot log in 24/7. Yeah, that's a great marketing strategy. Right up there next to destructible stations. Lol? If you don't want to risk - don't log in, or use a combination of precautions like cloaking or pos's. Except highsec, maybe. Low security space, no concord, lots of pirates, but anybody can live in a station for years with 100% safety -- wrong approach. Null security, no concord, no sentries, no penalties, attack whoever you wish, but still anybody can stay docked in a station if he gets inside it and be 100% safe -- wrong approach. Even in high security, suicide ganking inside stations would be sane. Eve was not, is not and - I hope - will not be a safe game.
Except that EVE is, at it's core, a game. If people have to log out of EVE just to AFK because being docked is just as dangerous as being in space ... I can easily see an incredible amount of people finding that to be unacceptably inconvenient and choosing a different game that allows them to still exist as real people in the real world. |
Rammix
TheMurk
302
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 17:06:00 -
[1055] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote: sandbox means everyone can do what they want. It actually doesn't mean that. It means that the players are given the tools to make their own content and shape the game world themselves, as opposed to themeparks where the content is provided for you and there is little or no player effect on the game world as a whole. Sandbox doesn't mean "I can do whatever I want". It means "I can decide for myself what I want to do" and yes there is a very big distinction. Aha. Somebody builds a castle. Then his friend comes and the guys build a fen-üe around them to play "Duels". Third guy comes to destroy the fence, throughs sand at both duelists and smashes their castles. That's sandbox gameplay. If two guys sit in an isolated room playing with sand and the third one waits for them to come out, unable to interfere - that's not sandbox gameplay. OpenSUSE 13.1, wine 1.7.20 Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread |
Rammix
TheMurk
302
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 17:10:00 -
[1056] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Rammix wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Rammix wrote: Instead of thinking about fair pvp I, in their place, would be thinking about ways to "unfairly" pull people out of stations or come visit them in their docked ships (maybe except highsec) in-station.
Instead of thinking about ways to retain players and make it more fun, you are thinking of ways to drive everyone away from Eve who cannot log in 24/7. Yeah, that's a great marketing strategy. Right up there next to destructible stations. Lol? If you don't want to risk - don't log in, or use a combination of precautions like cloaking or pos's. Except highsec, maybe. Low security space, no concord, lots of pirates, but anybody can live in a station for years with 100% safety -- wrong approach. Null security, no concord, no sentries, no penalties, attack whoever you wish, but still anybody can stay docked in a station if he gets inside it and be 100% safe -- wrong approach. Even in high security, suicide ganking inside stations would be sane. Eve was not, is not and - I hope - will not be a safe game. Except that EVE is, at it's core, a game. If people have to log out of EVE just to AFK because being docked is just as dangerous as being in space ... I can easily see an incredible amount of people finding that to be unacceptably inconvenient and choosing a different game that allows them to still exist as real people in the real world. Not as dangerous as in space at a belt or gate. Just dangerous, at least a bit. With attack taking some efforts or with some restrictions. Don't divide security to 100% vs 0% safe, it's not white and black. OpenSUSE 13.1, wine 1.7.20 Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
219
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 17:15:00 -
[1057] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Yun Kuai wrote:
In the same argument, using a jabber ping to amass a force to log on and get instantly Titan bridged on to a target is essentially the same: getting pew pew easy and fast. And from the receiving players end, there isn't anything they can do about it. Remember that when you say you can't affect dojo PVP bc I can't affect "giant blob just bridged on me" PVP. As for the more risk out of the dojo argument: all ships are still getting popped that aren't a training session. Just like the billions that are spent for the AT, billions would be spent by teams competing on tournaments.
I never said the dojo arena is better or should be the only one. In fact I said it would help the overall EVE environment. The sandbox is exactly what it should be, a place where all players have a way to do something. Not everyone likes getting bridged on or blobbed to death but it's still allowed in game and apparently not everyone likes the idea of a fair place to have coordinated fights but it's also being considered being brought into the game. Both will have a place to survive in game and won't step on each other's toes. As I mentioned in the post before, there are still plenty of ways to affect someone else's quick and easy fix PVP
except someone put in the work to know whether they should be pinging or not. and like wise you can affect a blob just bridging on you. the risk of facing what is in front of you within known rules is far less than the risk of facing what is in front of you plus anyone who wants to come along with absolutely no restrictions as to how many of whatever they want to bring. the idea that dojo's are as risky as the greater sandbox as a whole is completely false. again, sandbox means everyone can do what they want. so how is this idea that prevents ppl from hunting you in these 'instances' sandbox? it may not step on my toes much, but if i want to kill you for some vendetta and youre in this space i cant. at that moment the sandbox is no longer a sandbox. even if it lasts only 5 minutes.
Right and someone put in the work to organize a quick PVP session by stocking all the ships and modules ahead of time, therefore knowing whether or not they should be going to the dojo or not.
Please explain to me if I'm in low-sec in a Hyperion running ghost sites and you bridge a 20man fleet on me with 5 logi and a falcon with all Gallente jammers what I can do? Because believe it or not, that's pretty much how the majority of bridges and hot drops work. Also, 9.99/10 times when you bridge, you know exactly what it is your dropping on and how much back-up they have ready, so I would gladly argue the risk is far lower.
Why does the knife not cut both ways? You want to gank me or have the ability to gank me 23.5/7 but I'm not allowed to want 5-15mins of non-gankable time? Give and take my friend, there is literally no difference than you station camping because you want to revenge your vendetta and I just sit in station and go get lunch, except now I'm still actively doing something in game and still losing ships. This is just one tool that would be given players to avoid being griefed by players who have numerous options to disrupt my gameplay. Remember you still have countless dozens of other options to shoot me: station camp me, gate camp me, cloaky camp me, bridge on me at another point, bait me with a neutral alt and then bridge on me. Bump me If I'm doing mining/carebear stuff, pay someone else to gank me when I'm not expecting it, wardec me, shoot my alts/friends and force me to help them. I can keep listing stuff on how you can interrupt my gameplay. Also, the most important part: you can **** in my Cheerios all you want by reinforcing my dojo while I ignore you, therefore limiting my 1 of 3 tools to avoid being disrupted. --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2773
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 17:18:00 -
[1058] - Quote
Rammix wrote:Not as dangerous as in space at a belt or gate. Just dangerous, at least a bit. With attack taking some efforts or with some restrictions. Don't divide security to 100% vs 0% safe, it's not white and black.
If you can attack and destroy my ship when I'm not even undocked, that means the only way to safely AFK is to log off completely. As such, your distinctions don't change what I said.
EVE is a game and every game needs some place where you can AFK in perfect safety. For EVE, it's stations. |
Rammix
TheMurk
302
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 17:26:00 -
[1059] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Rammix wrote:Not as dangerous as in space at a belt or gate. Just dangerous, at least a bit. With attack taking some efforts or with some restrictions. Don't divide security to 100% vs 0% safe, it's not white and black. If you can attack and destroy my ship when I'm not even undocked, that means the only way to safely AFK is to log off completely. As such, your distinctions don't change what I said. EVE is a game and every game needs some place where you can AFK in perfect safety. For EVE, it's stations. Not the only way. You can set up a pos - temporary safety, not 100% but pretty enough. You can be afk cloaked on a spot in space (many people spend weeks in hostile systems unable to dock).
If you go afk for couple hours you don't need to be online. If you want to be afk for several minutes - there should be instruments to hide or self-defend in-stations for very short periods of time. I mean, let it be 85% or even 90% safety, but it should never reach 100% level no matter where and what you do. Safety should be temporary like pos or relative like cloaking. That's what I mean. OpenSUSE 13.1, wine 1.7.20 Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
219
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 17:26:00 -
[1060] - Quote
Rammix wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote: sandbox means everyone can do what they want. It actually doesn't mean that. It means that the players are given the tools to make their own content and shape the game world themselves, as opposed to themeparks where the content is provided for you and there is little or no player effect on the game world as a whole. Sandbox doesn't mean "I can do whatever I want". It means "I can decide for myself what I want to do" and yes there is a very big distinction. Aha. Somebody builds a castle. Then his friend comes and the guys build a fen-üe around them to play "Duels". Third guy comes to destroy the fence, throws sand at both duelists and smashes their castles. That's sandbox gameplay. If two guys sit in an isolated room playing with sand and the third one waits for them to come out, unable to interfere - that's not sandbox gameplay.
See you got lazy with your sandbox. If 2 guys are making sandcastle in a room but the door is locked you can still break the room so they have to find a new room. Then while they are finding a new room you throw sand at them. Or you can break their room and then build your own and advertise to them about your new, special room and how sorry you are to hear about their last room being destroyed. Get them to come over and play in your room then stab them in back by throwing sand at them.
Uggh these damn kids just expected everything to be handed to them on a platter these days.... Seriously, these two options have plenty of ways to coexist and interact in meaningful ways, you just have to open your eyes and be creative. --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2773
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 17:29:00 -
[1061] - Quote
Rammix wrote:That's what I mean.
I know what you mean. I stand by what I've said. You have literally all of space in which to take a galactic dump on someone, stations being perfectly safe aren't an unreasonable trade for that. |
Rammix
TheMurk
302
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 17:32:00 -
[1062] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:Rammix wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote: sandbox means everyone can do what they want. It actually doesn't mean that. It means that the players are given the tools to make their own content and shape the game world themselves, as opposed to themeparks where the content is provided for you and there is little or no player effect on the game world as a whole. Sandbox doesn't mean "I can do whatever I want". It means "I can decide for myself what I want to do" and yes there is a very big distinction. Aha. Somebody builds a castle. Then his friend comes and the guys build a fen-üe around them to play "Duels". Third guy comes to destroy the fence, throws sand at both duelists and smashes their castles. That's sandbox gameplay. If two guys sit in an isolated room playing with sand and the third one waits for them to come out, unable to interfere - that's not sandbox gameplay. See you got lazy with your sandbox. If 2 guys are making sandcastle in a room but the door is locked you can still break the room so they have to find a new room. Then while they are finding a new room you throw sand at them. Or you can break their room and then build your own and advertise to them about your new, special room and how sorry you are to hear about their last room being destroyed. Get them to come over and play in your room then stab them in back by throwing sand at them. Uggh these damn kids just expected everything to be handed to them on a platter these days.... Seriously, these two options have plenty of ways to coexist and interact in meaningful ways, you just have to open your eyes and be creative. What you described - is a version of the 1st option. The 2nd option means hypothetical full isolation making any interference impossible. If you mean that dojos should not be fully isolated and impenetrable, then I agree. Ability to interfere and disrupt any activity - is crucial. OpenSUSE 13.1, wine 1.7.20 Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread |
Rammix
TheMurk
302
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 17:34:00 -
[1063] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Rammix wrote:That's what I mean. I know what you mean. I stand by what I've said. You have literally all of space in which to take a galactic dump on someone, stations being perfectly safe aren't an unreasonable trade for that. I can agree about stations in highsec. But not nullsec. Lowsec... debatable. OpenSUSE 13.1, wine 1.7.20 Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2773
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 17:36:00 -
[1064] - Quote
Rammix wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Rammix wrote:That's what I mean. I know what you mean. I stand by what I've said. You have literally all of space in which to take a galactic dump on someone, stations being perfectly safe aren't an unreasonable trade for that. I can agree about stations in highsec. But not nullsec. Lowsec... debatable.
Attitudes like this are why lowsec is largely empty of targets outside of FW players. Too much "shoot everything that moves and hunt our prey to extinction" going on. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9910
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 17:47:00 -
[1065] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote: Why does the knife not cut both ways?
It does. But you seem to think that anything that isn't a 100% guarantee of safety is intrinsically worthless. This is what makes you a themepark player, when you get right down to it.
Quote: You want to gank me or have the ability to gank me 23.5/7 but I'm not allowed to want 5-15mins of non-gankable time?
It's easy to get that and more besides. It does require paying attention though, so that might be a deal breaker.
Quote:This is just one tool that would be given players to avoid being griefed by players who have numerous options to disrupt my gameplay.
Other people shooting you when you haven't agreed to it is not griefing. The fact that you think it is fairly damning of both you as a player, and the position you have taken.
Quote:Also, the most important part: you can **** in my Cheerios all you want by reinforcing my dojo while I ignore you, therefore limiting my 1 of 3 tools to avoid being disrupted.
Except that this is a lie, reinforcing the dojo does not stop it's effect. The magic barrier is still there for two days, during which you can just pull it down and suffer absolutely no loss. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
547
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 18:07:00 -
[1066] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote: sandbox means everyone can do what they want. It actually doesn't mean that. It means that the players are given the tools to make their own content and shape the game world themselves, as opposed to themeparks where the content is provided for you and there is little or no player effect on the game world as a whole. Sandbox doesn't mean "I can do whatever I want". It means "I can decide for myself what I want to do" and yes there is a very big distinction.
Exactly. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Rammix
TheMurk
302
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 18:10:00 -
[1067] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Rammix wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Rammix wrote:That's what I mean. I know what you mean. I stand by what I've said. You have literally all of space in which to take a galactic dump on someone, stations being perfectly safe aren't an unreasonable trade for that. I can agree about stations in highsec. But not nullsec. Lowsec... debatable. Attitudes like this are why lowsec is largely empty of targets outside of FW players. Too much "shoot everything that moves and hunt our prey to extinction" going on. Nope. It's comparatively empty because its danger/profit rate is badly balanced. Plus borderline as a factor: smoother security change from high to low security without that strict distinction between 0.5 and 0.4 could help to spread population of the empire space more evenly. OpenSUSE 13.1, wine 1.7.20 Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9911
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 18:14:00 -
[1068] - Quote
Hey, since we're giving out 100% guarantees of non interference with niche playstyles, can I get a deployable that prevents people from warning anyone in local about my scams? Maybe have a deployable that ****'s out one particular word in local as long as it's anchored?
It would be balanced because someone could blow it up after a 2 day reinforcement timer if they didn't like it.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2474
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 18:58:00 -
[1069] - Quote
Rammix wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Attitudes like this are why lowsec is largely empty of targets outside of FW players. Too much "shoot everything that moves and hunt our prey to extinction" going on.
Nope. It's comparatively empty because its danger/profit rate is badly balanced. Plus borderline as a factor: smoother security change from high to low security without that strict distinction between 0.5 and 0.4 could help to spread population of the empire space more evenly.
Rammix wrote: It's comparatively empty because its danger/profit rate is badly balanced.
Here is the problem.
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Too much "shoot everything that moves and hunt our prey to extinction" going on.
Here is the cause.
Now there just needs to be a solution. - |
Please Turn
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 19:12:00 -
[1070] - Quote
Since, for whatever reasons - i.e. maybe Garmon was right being sad in regard with the folks here, some people have chosen to not post on Eve forums their opinion on the subject, I took the liberty of collecting some of the points made on external medias. In a "true" Eve spirtit, I'm borrowing the title from the Sugar Kyle post.
A Disturbance in the Force Season One Episode 1
Quote:suicide #1Just registered to post in this forum cause I am not paying for a subscription just so I can post in an Eve-O thread about this. I do nothing other than tournaments these days. These arenas were intended to give the players the tools so that they could run tournaments. As it stands now to make the SCL happen or any sort of serious fan tournament you need a CCP dev or 2 to donate their time on a weekend to make it happen. Having an arena system allows these tournaments to give the playerbase a chance to start up a vital tournament scene. To those that oppose this ideas because it makes EVE less real consider: There are a growing number of people who only stay with EVE for the tournaments. My accounts are max trained and unsubbed during the spaces between tournaments. The ships that blow up are made through the INCREADIBLY fun and amazing and real gameplay mechanics of mining and construction, and they cost ISK if this were to be a TQ thing. There are many alliances running mini tournaments throughout the year from RvB to TEST in 5v5 or 1v1. Having the tools available so these tournaments could be streamed opens the door for the development of tournaments and the subsequent streaming to social media. If there were an ability for an observer to have the same health bars and whatnot then it would be a lot better viewing experience for the watchers. For those that argue it would break EVE there are tons of stuff in EVE already geared towards creating areas of more equal competition. For those that disagree that there should not be Risk-free anything you are free to come gank me in a newbie system as many times as you like. I will even re-sub for it. If your argument that EVE is real, then the next time your boss encourages you to do overtime on a weekend for getting a company more exposure in the field of your business you just go ahead and burn your weekend for it. Because that is what is required to get tournaments running if you don't give the players the tools to do it themselves. And for those who throw around "sharded" realize that the current tournament is run in Jove Space. These "Dojos" could also be jovian transportation devices which take you to Jove space and back. If that makes you happy. On the "oh my god, but the sandbox".
Quote:suicide #2For those of you living under the delusion that EVE is a sandbox need to step back and take another look. All of high and medium sec space is essentially a theme park. You can push around some meaningless ownership using Factional Warfare however you can make no meaningful changes to any station, gate, NPC corporation, Police force. Oh and if you are a bad boy then these magical fairy police appear which kill you and you are not able to defend yourself. Or you get banned. The empire borders don't change, sec status doesn't change, ownership of stations don't change. Players can do absolutely nothing to change anything. While I am all on board with making EVE more "sandboxish" or providing that gamestyle to players through additional space, those that argue that point need to remember CONCORD and the static high-sec space that exists. Oh yeah and it seems to me a human thing to have competitions, and leagues. Like the UFC, auto racing, boat racing. Competitions of skill popularized in the media and with prizes for the victors. EVE is REAL, remember. Even if the planets and moons don't move. In response to the classic non-sense " Going back to WoW is even easier."
Quote:suicide #3I think you mean LoL with it's 67 Million subscribers. WoW is like only 1/10th their subscribers, and EVE is a fraction of LoL. I would prefer to play a game with that sort of financial backing. The features and improvements would be non-stop! But no... No fun allowed in MY EVE, it will be a terrible game rewarding only those who slog through terrible gameplay to try to achieve something space-relevent! It will only reward pilots who wade tirelessly through broken mechanics in an attempt to find some part of what they dream exists in the game. It is fair to say that very little content exists for players like myself who have played EVE for 10 years. Get in fleet this, OMG backstab that. We have seen it all before. A game that is not flat out Massochistic. Tournaments are at least fun. There is something to be said about fun, interesting, and cool gameplay which drives new subscribers and keeps the old types happy and playing some aspect of the game. Whatever that happens to be. Perhaps if EVE was not stagnant and people so resistant to new ideas then it would not be in decline right now. My account is unsubbed, and taking a look around I am sorta happy it lapsed. The spell is broken. I would point out that your "go back to WoW" comment is almost as dated as EVE is. Hope they get it together and find something fun to continue to make the game interesting. |
|
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1541
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 19:42:00 -
[1071] - Quote
Please Turn wrote:Since, for whatever reasons - i.e. maybe Garmon was right being sad in regard with the folks here, some people have chosen to not post on Eve forums their opinion on the subject, I took the liberty of collecting some of the points made on external medias.
Actually, the reason is very telling, in and of itself.
The poster cannot post here because he/she only subs for tournaments. Since there are none on, right now, they do not have access to this forum.
I wonder how many other players are out there who are silent right now because they are not playing but would be if new things were added to the game . . . ANY new things.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9916
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 19:45:00 -
[1072] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote: I wonder how many other players are out there who are silent right now because they are not playing but would be if new things were added to the game . . . ANY new things.
In the meantime, I wonder just how many more people have outright quit the game because CCP keeps putting cutesy side projects ahead of POS and sov mechanics, the two biggest, most blatant holes in the game right now.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5302
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 19:46:00 -
[1073] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Please Turn wrote:Since, for whatever reasons - i.e. maybe Garmon was right being sad in regard with the folks here, some people have chosen to not post on Eve forums their opinion on the subject, I took the liberty of collecting some of the points made on external medias. Actually, the reason is very telling, in and of itself. The poster cannot post here because he/she only subs for tournaments. Since there are none on, right now, they do not have access to this forum. I wonder how many other players are out there who are silent right now because they are not playing but would be if new things were added to the game . . . ANY new things. m Pretty big difference between any new thing and this new thing
=]I[= |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2781
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 19:59:00 -
[1074] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mike Azariah wrote: I wonder how many other players are out there who are silent right now because they are not playing but would be if new things were added to the game . . . ANY new things.
In the meantime, I wonder just how many more people have outright quit the game because CCP keeps putting cutesy side projects ahead of POS and sov mechanics, the two biggest, most blatant holes in the game right now.
Perhaps you haven't paid attention, but the POS problem is rooted in god-awful legacy code that was slapped together quickly and without documentation back when players were living out of anchored cans and CCP as a company was .. very different. They're working on an outright replacement for POSes because fixing the existing nonsense would take even longer than starting over.
As for sov, has anyone actually had an idea yet that's honestly not as terrible as Dominion sov - or worse?
I am told (because I wasn't here in 2003/2004) that in the early days before POSes, supercaps and alliances as an ingame entity, there wasn't any sov system at all. If you wanted a piece of space, you lived there and you defended it against all comers. There weren't structure grinds or timers or mechanics or ihubs. Then CCP added a sov system based on POSes (because they were introduced by then) which led to structure grinds leading to the introduction of dreads specifically to shoot structures and... well... sov as a mechanic has been pretty terrible ever since.
Anyway, it's silly to assume more people have stopped playing due to sov and pos problems than have stopped because of development stagnation. Where are your numbers? |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
4002
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 20:04:00 -
[1075] - Quote
i don't think it'd actually replace other types of pvp
being around lowseccers i'm certain most'd turn their noses up at a dojo preferring to handle their own business through the old respected rite of 'shittalk and throw insults in local until some angry git undocks'
especially if the dojo costs money and is more of a hassle to transport/set up than just warping to a belt
also many pvpers i've known've taken pride in being able to act as the predator and pick their fights (many pvpers i've known have also been crap at it but that's beside the point). i'll still prefer warping around fw space bothering plexers or sitting on a gate. i know i've never done well in fair fights so i'll not be using a dojo probably
i can't shake the bad feeling, though. can you consider something for me, mike? if this gets put on tq have a look at the data regarding where and how fights are happening, and have this implemented as a bit of a trial feature, like the new notifications that are coming up
i think i'd also prefer that the dojo is heavily restrictive - forcing 'fair' teams, so that it's not always the best choice for a 1v1. i'm not in a position to actually test it for myself at the moment unfortunately |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1541
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 20:05:00 -
[1076] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mike Azariah wrote: I wonder how many other players are out there who are silent right now because they are not playing but would be if new things were added to the game . . . ANY new things.
In the meantime, I wonder just how many more people have outright quit the game because CCP keeps putting cutesy side projects ahead of POS and sov mechanics, the two biggest, most blatant holes in the game right now.
Fair enough. This was a side project (which devs are allowed to do) and not a main focus of the game. To think that CCP et al are ignoring null would be an error as they have already stated the roadmap and it is on it.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1543
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 20:08:00 -
[1077] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote: i can't shake the bad feeling, though. can you consider something for me, mike? if this gets put on tq have a look at the data regarding where and how fights are happening, and have this implemented as a bit of a trial feature, like the new notifications that are coming up
1) prototype . . .
2) IF it ever comes to pass and I still have any say in things, yeah, I will try to get those numbers for you
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9917
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 20:09:00 -
[1078] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Perhaps you haven't paid attention, but the POS problem is rooted in god-awful legacy code that was slapped together quickly and without documentation back when players were living out of anchored cans and CCP as a company was .. very different. They're working on an outright replacement for POSes because fixing the existing nonsense would take even longer than starting over.
Yes, I am aware of this. But you know something? I can't imagine that getting it fixed is helped any by all the little diversions, or the big ones for that matter. *cough DUST 514 cough*
Quote: As for sov, has anyone actually had an idea yet that's honestly not as terrible as Dominion sov - or worse?
Because that's a good reason to leave a major component of the game broken.
Quote: Anyway, it's silly to assume more people have stopped playing due to sov and pos problems than have stopped because of development stagnation.
Those two things are one and the same.
Quote: Where are your numbers?
Where are his? I said the exact same thing he did, "I wonder". And the point of it was to say that if, as he seems to be, he is concerned about sub numbers, there are better places to be looking than e-bushido honor duels.
And those things are obvious to any who care to look. When you have a huge, gaping hole in a boat, and a tiny little one, which one do you think lets out more water? I'm an Army guy, not Navy, but even so I am pretty sure that if you aren't intending to just break out the lifeboats and inflatable vests, you fix the big hole first. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
4003
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 20:11:00 -
[1079] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:1) prototype . . . haha yes i'm aware but there's a bit of difference between tq and test server when it comes to the actual meta
what i'm trying to say is that i don't believe it'll impact other forms of pvp but it'll be reassuring if an eye's kept on the meta anyway. just in case |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9917
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 20:13:00 -
[1080] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mike Azariah wrote: I wonder how many other players are out there who are silent right now because they are not playing but would be if new things were added to the game . . . ANY new things.
In the meantime, I wonder just how many more people have outright quit the game because CCP keeps putting cutesy side projects ahead of POS and sov mechanics, the two biggest, most blatant holes in the game right now. Fair enough. This was a side project (which devs are allowed to do) and not a main focus of the game. To think that CCP et al are ignoring null would be an error as they have already stated the roadmap and it is on it. m
I am fully aware of the side project positions, yes.
But Veritas is gone. And the debate right now is as to whether development resources are worth finishing this deployable. My opinion is that it is not.
And yes, I know about the roadmap. I also know that it's long overdue, and I don't know anyone who would disagree with that. And while I am aware that rushing it would just lead to another bandaid fix that breaks again in a few years, I also think that if sov mechanics and POS architecture are not their #1 priority, they are fools.
If you really are concerned with sub numbers, this is a drum that all of you should be banging on incessantly. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2781
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 20:22:00 -
[1081] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Yes, I am aware of this. But you know something? I can't imagine that getting it fixed is helped any by all the little diversions, or the big ones for that matter. *cough DUST 514 cough*
For things like this dojo, it's called "20% time" and they're entitled to spend it on whatever they wish. As for DUST, I'm not touching that.
Quote:Because that's a good reason to leave a major component of the game broken. How do you fix it without having something else to put in its place? I would love to know the answer to this question. Taking out one horrible sov system and placing something equally terrible in its stead is not a fix; it's Dominion.
Quote:Those two things are one and the same. That's a deliberate oversimplification and you know it. Development is more than just POSes and your damnable Sov. It's also new features, which we haven't really had any of since Apocrypha.
Quote:Where are his? I said the exact same thing he did, "I wonder". Numbers came into it when you implied more people have left EVE because of POSes and Sov than for lack of new things in the game. Word choice is important, you know. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9919
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 20:28:00 -
[1082] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: That's a deliberate oversimplification and you know it. Development is more than just POSes and your damnable Sov. It's also new features, which we haven't really had any of since Apocrypha.
And you should know full well what is at fault for that.
This is the development and iterative improvements in the base game that are years, literal years overdue thanks to Incarna pissing away so much dev time on a completely pointless set of features.
That only goes to prove my point by the way. If you don't do your upkeep, you spend all your time trying to keep up. The base game m.u.s.t. be brought into line and updated properly before you can really talk about "adding content", otherwise you're just adding one broken feature onto the top of the pile.
Quote: Numbers came into it when you implied more people have left EVE because of POSes and Sov than for lack of new things in the game. Word choice is important, you know.
"how many more" meaning "in addition to". I know English is my second language but did I mangle it that badly? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9919
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 20:30:00 -
[1083] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:As for DUST, I'm not touching that.
Neither is the playerbase!
*bah dum ting*
I'll be here all night folks. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
320
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 21:01:00 -
[1084] - Quote
One line bad idea thread winner of the year goes to CCP Veritas.
The Law is a point of View |
Chirality Tisteloin
Zervas Aeronautics The Bastion
40
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 21:17:00 -
[1085] - Quote
Here is some actual feedback (even if not sure any Dev will take over the prototype):
I tried again today and made small progress. This time I got the match making windows and could select a fit and click ready. However at that point I got a message claiming not enough guns were in the Dojo and I should complain to the Dojo Master. happened on both characters (different guns). There were enough guns stocked in the Dojo, though. Could this have anything to do with stacking?
Cheers, Chira. See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/ |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
153
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 21:58:00 -
[1086] - Quote
You know, I seem to recall reading numerous threads where the idea of "instanced" combat was shot down numerous times, not only by players but also by dev's, as it breaks the sandbox concept. Why this is now on the table I have no idea, but I do know, I don't like it. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
184
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 22:17:00 -
[1087] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Bamboozlement wrote: Eve is all about risk vs reward, I'm repeating myself because you elude this part over and over.
And you're arguing for a frankly enormous reduction in the risk of dueling. For no tradeoff, and no drawback.
Well, except that people who want to duel risk-free can do so on Sisi w/no problem, and risk absolutely nothing, because the ships there don't come out of their pockets on TQ. This would provide a system where even 'risk free' duels cost someone money. |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
321
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 22:35:00 -
[1088] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Bamboozlement wrote: Eve is all about risk vs reward, I'm repeating myself because you elude this part over and over.
And you're arguing for a frankly enormous reduction in the risk of dueling. For no tradeoff, and no drawback. Well, except that people who want to duel risk-free can do so on Sisi w/no problem, and risk absolutely nothing, because the ships there don't come out of their pockets on TQ. This would provide a system where even 'risk free' duels cost someone money.
No one cares about Sisi.
Even allowing an idea like this to even be discussed starts Eve down the slippery slope of instances and pay 2 win. No. The Law is a point of View |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1911
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 01:03:00 -
[1089] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote: sandbox means everyone can do what they want. It actually doesn't mean that. It means that the players are given the tools to make their own content and shape the game world themselves, as opposed to themeparks where the content is provided for you and there is little or no player effect on the game world as a whole. Sandbox doesn't mean "I can do whatever I want". It means "I can decide for myself what I want to do" and yes there is a very big distinction.
So why do you all keep saying it does? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2786
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 02:35:00 -
[1090] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote: sandbox means everyone can do what they want. It actually doesn't mean that. It means that the players are given the tools to make their own content and shape the game world themselves, as opposed to themeparks where the content is provided for you and there is little or no player effect on the game world as a whole. Sandbox doesn't mean "I can do whatever I want". It means "I can decide for myself what I want to do" and yes there is a very big distinction. So why do you all keep saying it does?
I've never said that. |
|
Captain Semper
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
52
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 03:42:00 -
[1091] - Quote
Session pvp on EvE...
What next? Button "battleground" and arena 5v5? Instance dangeons?
CCP build good sandbox (that mean i can affect at any player in space), and CCP ruin own sandbox with that module (i cant affect).
We have arenas with RvB. But 3rd side can join the battle at any time.
|
Solaris Vex
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 03:46:00 -
[1092] - Quote
With a few changes like forcing participants to warp to the dual site, making them an npc owned service available to everyone, and limiting the total number of dojos to just one or two in all of new eden. CCP could create hot spots for solo pvpers and other glory seekers to gather, which would inevitably lead to fights as people from different alliance and corps gather in one system to use the dojo.
|
Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions Free 2 Play
242
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 08:47:00 -
[1093] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:
- Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise.
Am i the only one who feels that this is un-eve?
3rdPartyEve.net - your catalogue for 3rd party applications |
Erin Crawford
270
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 09:57:00 -
[1094] - Quote
Peter Powers wrote:Am i the only one who feels that this is un-eve?
uuuhhh... Blind much? You see your post is no. 1050? You see you're posting on page 53? Maybe you should start from page 1? Then ask yourself that question again...
|
PastyWhiteDevil
Mayhem and Ruin Point Blank Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 18:02:00 -
[1095] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:PastyWhiteDevil wrote: The problem with you ridiculing him for using the slipery slope argument is that you too are engaging in conjecture. you're saying that our fears are unfounded and will not come to fruition and you have about as much if not less solid evidence that it won't happen as we do that it will. So get down off ur high ****ing horse. This is all CONJECTURE, so stfu about logical fallacies when nobody in here is engaging it structured sound logical argumentation. I could just as easily call your argument the "Believes all content in eve is compartmentalized and will not effect other aspects" fallacy. All you are attempting to do is marginalize legitimate fears.
Btw. In debate an argument has to be both sound and logical to be considered valid. Also it's better to be sound and not logical than logical and not sound.
The burden of proof is on you, if you don't expect me to react when people with a meta-game agenda (aka I don't want to adapt my gameplay to this change) post doom and gloom comments with no logical basis then you should ignore my post, because I will, over and over. As an example last time people were saying duels would kill eve : http://i.imgur.com/5v1zptC.jpgStatements like "why go to lowsec/nullsec/x instead of pushing a button for a fair fight" imply that dojos will remove the incentive to go to nullsec/lowsec, which is plain wrong. Stop trying to leverage fear with doom and gloom posts and be honest : you might have less easy targets to blob/gank if you don't adapt your gameplay to this change that's why most people are against this change. Eve is all about risk vs reward.
I'm sorry, but how exactly is the burden of proof on me? I'm not the one who wants this added to game you are. It is up to you to justtify why this needs to be added. This is a needless feature and it's no different than a miner wanting one of these to protect him and his rocks. absolutely laughable. "oh you can still destroy it so it's in the spirit of eve" stfu you shouldn't need a bs or cap fleet to mess with a 1v1 or a miner and his rocks.
it won't remove incentive to go to low sec but it will most definitely lessen it and there is already very little incentive to begin with. If this involved some sort of rebalance that placed more emphasis on low sec as being a place you need to go to whether you pvp, pve, mine, industry etc. i'd be less inclined to kill this with fire, but as it currently stands KILL IT WITH FIRE.
"you might have less easy targets to blob/gank if you don't adapt your gameplay to this change[/b] that's why most people are against this change." Have you ever tried to legit pirate while trying to achieve true -10? I can't shoot rats, run sites or do missions. Loot and ransoms and the occasional loathsome bouts of exploration are my only sources of income. Any feature that will pull people away from the already painfully empty low sec is unacceptable. Additionally most of your average pirate corps don't have the resourses that would probably be needed to reinforce and destroy one of these dojos all while fighting off the ppl who don't want it blown up. Your taking what should be 2 targets of opportunity (the 2 ships fighting) and tuning it into a multi day fleet endeavor. Part of this games appeal is the ability to be a pirate and we are a disappearing breed. We get no love from ccp to begin with. We don't need this on top of it. This is not just an adaptation of playstyle thats focused on meta-game. I shouldn't need a cap fleet in order to mess with 2 ppl 1v1ing. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2795
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 18:12:00 -
[1096] - Quote
PastyWhiteDevil wrote:Stuff about capfleets and poverty
It's been mentioned at least once in this thread that the structure has the HP of a mobile depot. Unless there's a reason for fielding dreads to kill those, you won't need a cap fleet.
I also suspect that if this prototype is developed further (that's a significant if), the reinforcement timer will be shortened significantly or the EHP will be significantly boosted (with some notice to the owner that "hey, someone's shooting your stuff, you should defend it") and the reinforcement removed entirely.
|
PastyWhiteDevil
Mayhem and Ruin Point Blank Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 18:35:00 -
[1097] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:PastyWhiteDevil wrote:Stuff about capfleets and poverty It's been mentioned at least once in this thread that the structure has the HP of a mobile depot. Unless there's a reason for fielding dreads to kill those, you won't need a cap fleet. I also suspect that if this prototype is developed further (that's a significant if), the reinforcement timer will be shortened significantly or the EHP will be significantly boosted (with some notice to the owner that "hey, someone's shooting your stuff, you should defend it") and the reinforcement removed entirely.
Yes, because thats exactly what eve needs. more shooting structures...
So what your saying is before when i was roaming around is my frig dessy or cruiser, if i want to mess with this, i now have to go reship, asseble some sort of fleet, go back, shoot this thing, and hope i don't get dropped on by a larger force, in order to mess with this 1v1 that i should have just been able to obliterate in the first place. all so you can have some sort or intangible space bushido? r u high?
"Stuff about capfleets and poverty" I hope you didn't overexert yourself building that straw man. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2795
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 18:51:00 -
[1098] - Quote
PastyWhiteDevil wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:PastyWhiteDevil wrote:Stuff about capfleets and poverty It's been mentioned at least once in this thread that the structure has the HP of a mobile depot. Unless there's a reason for fielding dreads to kill those, you won't need a cap fleet. I also suspect that if this prototype is developed further (that's a significant if), the reinforcement timer will be shortened significantly or the EHP will be significantly boosted (with some notice to the owner that "hey, someone's shooting your stuff, you should defend it") and the reinforcement removed entirely. Yes, because thats exactly what eve needs. more shooting structures... So what your saying is before when i was roaming around is my frig dessy or cruiser, if i want to mess with this, i now have to go reship, asseble some sort of fleet, go back, shoot this thing, and hope i don't get dropped on by a larger force, in order to mess with this 1v1 that i should have just been able to obliterate in the first place. all so you can have some sort or intangible space bushido? r u high? "Stuff about capfleets and poverty" I hope you didn't overexert yourself building that straw man.
It wasn't even a strawman. It was a snip for brevity because I didn't want to quote that whole wall of text. Get over yourself.
Anyway, if you can't kill - or at least reinforce - a mobile depot with a destroyer (to say nothing of cruisers) then I just don't know what to tell you.
However, you seem to have missed something in your butthurt shitpost: The entire point I was making is that it doesn't take capitals to attack these things. That's all I was saying, and anything beyond that is all you. |
PastyWhiteDevil
Mayhem and Ruin Point Blank Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 19:02:00 -
[1099] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:PastyWhiteDevil wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:PastyWhiteDevil wrote:Stuff about capfleets and poverty It's been mentioned at least once in this thread that the structure has the HP of a mobile depot. Unless there's a reason for fielding dreads to kill those, you won't need a cap fleet. I also suspect that if this prototype is developed further (that's a significant if), the reinforcement timer will be shortened significantly or the EHP will be significantly boosted (with some notice to the owner that "hey, someone's shooting your stuff, you should defend it") and the reinforcement removed entirely. Yes, because thats exactly what eve needs. more shooting structures... So what your saying is before when i was roaming around is my frig dessy or cruiser, if i want to mess with this, i now have to go reship, asseble some sort of fleet, go back, shoot this thing, and hope i don't get dropped on by a larger force, in order to mess with this 1v1 that i should have just been able to obliterate in the first place. all so you can have some sort or intangible space bushido? r u high? "Stuff about capfleets and poverty" I hope you didn't overexert yourself building that straw man. It wasn't even a strawman. It was a snip for brevity because I didn't want to quote that whole wall of text. Get over yourself. Anyway, if you can't kill - or at least reinforce - a mobile depot with a destroyer (to say nothing of cruisers) then I just don't know what to tell you. However, you seem to have missed something in your butthurt shitpost: The entire point I was making is that it doesn't take capitals to attack these things. That's all I was saying, and anything beyond that is all you.
no, it most definitely was a straw man because my point was not about poverty. it was about an aspect of eve being further marginalized. It being harder to make isk is just a symptom.
|
Raquel Rova
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 19:23:00 -
[1100] - Quote
maybe if they didnt have to wait 2 days to desroy something deployed in under 1 min.
with no need to stront it or actually pay for the reinforcment ability |
|
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
298
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 21:05:00 -
[1101] - Quote
Raquel Rova wrote:maybe if they didnt have to wait 2 days to desroy something deployed in under 1 min. with no need to stront it or actually pay for the reinforcment ability
I DO agree with this. 2 days is a bit much. Thats a tweak to take to the next phase after this prototype.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9939
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 21:14:00 -
[1102] - Quote
Toriessian wrote:Raquel Rova wrote:maybe if they didnt have to wait 2 days to desroy something deployed in under 1 min. with no need to stront it or actually pay for the reinforcment ability I DO agree with this. 2 days is a bit much. Thats a tweak to take to the next phase after this prototype.
There will be no next phase. The guy who designed it in his spare time has left CCP, and as one last troll posted it here before he moved to work for Riot. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
25
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 21:21:00 -
[1103] - Quote
Instanced pvp. I seem to remember another large MMO that did instanced PVP which utterly destroyed the game. |
Rynnik
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
118
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 23:39:00 -
[1104] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote: There are four strong guiding principles that I applied while doing this: [list=1]
Fights need to be un-screw-with-able. We strongly feel that if whatGÇÖs supposed to be a GÇ£fairGÇ¥ match given a set of predetermined rules is thrown off course by outside influence, it invalidates the whole premise. ~CCP Veritas
Dear CCP and Mr. Veritas,
Why would you think that this is a decent premise upon which to build a new PvP feature?
After having been unsubbed for a year or so I am back flying around in New Eden. Why? Because after touring around the MMORPG market I have discovered that you folks, and ONLY you folks, have managed to build a vibrant virtual world. Every other MMO has failed to do that and one of the keys aspects that has allowed EVE to do it well is the sense of interplay and interaction that exists in this virtual universe.
It is like the cliche goons recruiting line about any pilot being able to make a difference... They can, at very low skill points, as many stories have attested to over the years. It is the same sort of sense that pilots like me have about the volatile nature of undocking a ship in this game. While the opportunity cost of suicide ganking makes in unappealing to me, I COULD do it. We all know this. And it is one of the first things new players get ingrained into them. You are never truly safe when you undock. There is no instance or scenario where you can't be engaged with applicable consequence once you leave that station interface behind and start to play the wonderful experience that taking a spaceship through this universe is.
It is this sense of 'right' in the EVE universe that I think you are treading on in this thread and with this proposal. Much like Incarna as released wasn't right for EVE, this is a step in a direction that is dreaded by the type of people who, like me, come back to this game after a year away because it has stayed TRUE to the vision of a virtual world where player interactions, while properly guided by the rules of the world, still reign as the supreme factor on who lives and who goes home in their pod.
Please build an arena feature. Give the players some defensive tools so that given time, effort, and resources PvP matches can be 'fair' and free from outside influence. However, given more time, effort, and resources make sure that OTHER players absolutely can mess with the balance and cause a very EVEish and wonderful amount of fuckery. Please go back to the drawing board on the initial premise of this thread and reconsider what the proper way to bring arenas, if that is what you want, to this world.
Thanks for your time and consideration,
A hopeful customer glad to be home. For now at least... |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
510
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 01:30:00 -
[1105] - Quote
Interesting idea. Needs to be implemented with care. Why are people whining about instances? Assuming of course, that this doesn't actually affect anything.... it would be an alternative to ship spinning.
Idea: Virtual Reality Room -No cost -No risk -No payoff (not even achievements, or titles, or killmails. Nothing. Zip. Nada. Zilch. If you duel for 5 minutes, you just lost 5 minutes. Presumably having fun while doing it though.) -No sec restrictions. -Limited fitting (t1 ships and mods only) (to prevent it becoming a testing ground)
Wanna break up missioning? Take a breather from mining? Try out pvp at no risk? Explode spectacularly in a level of fail never before seen, then stream it to a bunch of drunk guys from other games to show them how awesome dying in a fire can be?
It hurts nothing, benefits no one, and gives us something new to do while dicking around. It might even help get more people into pvp by giving them a place to try it out. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Lelira Cirim
EVE University Ivy League
161
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 04:20:00 -
[1106] - Quote
If this concept survives Duality I look forward to see what it can become! Mainly the vending machine mechanic seems a lot tidier than the usual Hunger Games layout of an arena. Honestly indifferent about having a "Singularity" pocket. But I use SISI for that reason, so I can see our newbros appreciating it. Do not actively tank my patience. || -áEvents Team -á|| -áUniWiki Team |
Eessi
Murderous Inc
18
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 06:29:00 -
[1107] - Quote
The Dojo is the best deployable idea ever, right next to the mobile tractor unit!
Please make this happen!
Thank you CCP Veritas!
Good Luck! |
Josef Djugashvilis
2541
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 07:08:00 -
[1108] - Quote
Dun'Gal wrote:You know, I seem to recall reading numerous threads where the idea of "instanced" combat was shot down numerous times, not only by players but also by dev's, as it breaks the sandbox concept. Why this is now on the table I have no idea, but I do know, I don't like it.
I rather suspect it is because subs appear to be down, so CCP are now hoping that instanced pvp in a protected area might bring in the 'I don't really want to play Eve, but will play protected shoot em ups' in an attempt to raise sub numbers.
It is sad that CCP have been reduced to this. This is not a signature. |
PastyWhiteDevil
Mayhem and Ruin Point Blank Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 22:28:00 -
[1109] - Quote
It might also be a good idea to note in your analysis of this that ccp veritas is going over to riot games who make league of legends. In my opinion that makes it pretty clear what type of content he wants to create. so make of it what u will. |
Mazzara
Gale Force Contractors
21
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 02:13:00 -
[1110] - Quote
+1 great idea. No matter how much you scrub, how hot of water you use,-áyou can't wash shame! |
|
Caval Marten
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
15
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 04:23:00 -
[1111] - Quote
Quote:Have you ever wanted a little pewpew but didnGÇÖt have the time to find
Have you ever wanted a fleet battle but didnGÇÖt have the time to find
Have you ever wanted a to run a DED but didnGÇÖt have the time to find
Have you ever wanted to shoot some sleepers but didnGÇÖt have the time to find
You get the point.. Eve is not about a quick fix. You put in the time and then (hopefully) get the rewards. There are days where I can roam for a while and don't find much, other times a jump or two out of my home system and I get a nice brawl.
If I want a quick gaming fix there are plenty of other options. Eve is the only one where I come back regularly and don't mind putting the time in.
|
Capqu
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
695
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 07:04:00 -
[1112] - Quote
hope this never makes it to tq https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpMiT5qpyI |
Revis Owen
38
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 15:28:00 -
[1113] - Quote
Disliked. One way to turn Eve into a theme-park is by adding rides like this one at a time. Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Highsec Operations Permit, please contact me for issuance. |
CloudyHi Crush
Kleptomaniac Consortium Maggie's Magical Malliance
2
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 15:44:00 -
[1114] - Quote
i sugessted something like this a few times and never got any response. You really just need to add a gambling of isk feature lol :) |
SKIN KZ
Lock Stock Two Smoking Barrels
15
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 12:41:00 -
[1115] - Quote
Hi everyone!
I'm realy don't undestand what is the meaning of this idea??? 1 vs 1 fair duel ??? But you already have a duels mechanic. It has some problems, but I suggested how to fix them in this theme: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=357977.
Why reinvent the wheel ??? We could combine these two ideas. For example: - After making a call to a duel, both players are thrown into space in a random place. - In this place can not come to a third party. - On the players do not apply for team bonuses. - After the destruction of the winner gets precipitated modules.
What do you say?... Fly safe, die fast!... |
Revis Owen
38
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 12:55:00 -
[1116] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Fights need to be un-screw-with-able.
I can't think of any direction for game development which goes against the soul of Eve worse than "un-screw-with-able".
Terrible game development direction, and terrible idea in the OP. Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Highsec Operations Permit, please contact me for issuance. |
Flashrain
Vanguard Frontiers Intrepid Crossing
21
|
Posted - 2014.10.04 23:48:00 -
[1117] - Quote
Any possibility of this dojo feature enhanced for first person dogfighting mode? |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
1155
|
Posted - 2014.10.05 06:27:00 -
[1118] - Quote
This seems to theme parkish and like battlegrounds in other mmos. So I'm going to vote no on this one. EvE is about risk and reward not instant gratification.
If it stays on the test servers, that's fine that's where it should be, just not on TQ. |
Primira Kidics
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.06 11:56:00 -
[1119] - Quote
pâ+n+òn+ûn+ò TeamBattle pâ+Can play Not in Corp menber and anymenber. pâ+Auto Matching Battle System pâ+Ship and Battle Rule Change System (Every Month) pâ+Ship and Module FreeISK,but payment money for ISK about 10,000. pâ+Montry MVP Championship System : MVP get ISK. pâ+Battle System get can LP -> can buy Rare Ship (Alliance Tornament Ship`s) pâ+Visitor can see ship fit.(finished Match Battle)
this reply is writed japanese for Japanese forum. So sorry bad English.
ty |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
136
|
Posted - 2014.10.06 23:31:00 -
[1120] - Quote
Obsidian Hawk wrote:This seems to theme parkish and like battlegrounds in other mmos. So I'm going to vote no on this one. EvE is about risk and reward not instant gratification.
If it stays on the test servers, that's fine that's where it should be, just not on TQ.
You are implying that dojos don't respect the risk vs reward philosophy, which is wrong. You understand that ships will explode right?
If eve isn't about instant gratification how do you explain that many people (mainly in nullsec) only login to put skills in queue and to jump to a cyno to press F1? Should CCP add a no-cyno timer after login? I have a Ph.D |
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
10010
|
Posted - 2014.10.06 23:50:00 -
[1121] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote: You are implying that dojos don't respect the risk vs reward philosophy, which is wrong.
No, it's quite correct. This aborted concept completely removes any risk of interference by a third party, at no cost. It reduces risk, and does not have a penalty attached to it.
Ergo, it does not respect risk/reward. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Samuel Wess
Stain Police Happy Cartel
70
|
Posted - 2014.10.07 00:38:00 -
[1122] - Quote
I'd love arena fights, special store to buy & fit limited modules and ships usable just in the arena, and you can bet on the winner and watch the fights from Captain Quarter.
Walk into the club like "What up? I got a big cockpit!" |
Satisfry
Tribal Liberation Force
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.07 02:30:00 -
[1123] - Quote
I love the idea of this feature, I really, really hope it comes out.
I'll make 3 new accounts just to train ninjas of different races quickly. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
139
|
Posted - 2014.10.08 02:47:55 -
[1124] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Bamboozlement wrote: You are implying that dojos don't respect the risk vs reward philosophy, which is wrong.
No, it's quite correct. This aborted concept completely removes any risk of interference by a third party, at no cost. It reduces risk, and does not have a penalty attached to it. Ergo, it does not respect risk/reward.
Sorry but you're wrong, you can only gank me when I choose a gameplay with enough rewards to warrant that risk.
Ganking is not the only way to interfere with people in EVE Online (you must be new or something, it's okay; welcome) you have ways to interact with dojos and people deploying them.
Feel free to prove me wrong by ganking me, I'll be in jita 4-4 station or cloaked to a safe.
I have a Ph.D
|
Odis Franty
WHNomads
1
|
Posted - 2014.10.08 06:25:03 -
[1125] - Quote
VERY GOOD NEWS |
Odis Franty
WHNomads
1
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 16:52:27 -
[1126] - Quote
this could be great way for CEO's to recruit people, "join now, we have lots of isk dedicated to practice and our dojos are packed with goodies" |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1338
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 17:46:06 -
[1127] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Bamboozlement wrote: You are implying that dojos don't respect the risk vs reward philosophy, which is wrong.
No, it's quite correct. This aborted concept completely removes any risk of interference by a third party, at no cost. It reduces risk, and does not have a penalty attached to it. Ergo, it does not respect risk/reward.
The protection from 3rd party come at the cost of not having 3rd party help available. I also didn't see any tangible reward in Veritas' post so the risk don't really need to be all that much for the risk/reward ratio to be somewhat decent... |
Tedd Haggard
Banana Co.
11
|
Posted - 2014.10.20 04:51:40 -
[1128] - Quote
I haven't read through all 55 pages, so apologies if this has been suggested before. But from what I've read, this could be a cool gladiators arena ... with spaceships.
Rather than stocking the dojo with modules/fits, approach it differently...
Dojo Clones To take part in a dojo, you need to buy a clone from the market. Clones allow you a skill point limit to spend as you wish, these are tiered so the price goes up and you get more skill points to spend. Dojo clones can only be used in a dojo event and if your spaceship pops, your clone is gone and you need to buy a new one.
Clone tiers Dojo clones will come in several tiers (needs some thought). Skill points can be reset up until your first fight, after that they're permanent.
Novice clones: 1M SP @ 100k ISK Cadet clones: 3M SP @ 1M ISK Officer clones: 8M SP @ 10M ISK Gladiator clones: 15M SP @ 20M ISK
...something along those lines.
Fitting ships Fitting ships will work as normal. But you'll obviously have to fit the ship to suit your dojo clone skills.
Taking part The dojo fights will only allow balanced numbers of players. It will also be broken down by tiers based on the clones; only the same type of clones can fight each other.
Rewards Destroying a ship in the dojo will get you 10% of the enemy ship value (split equally if there are more players) plus 50% of the their accumulated reward plus 10% of all money won through betting. This reward will not be given directly, but will accumulate on your clone. Each additional dojo fight will increase the ship payout percentage up to a cap of 80%. You can 'cash out' your clone after any fight, this will transfer all accumulated reward to your wallet and reset the reward percentage back to 10%.
Spectating and speculating All fights can be watched from the comfort of the station. From there bets can be made before the fight starts. Betting is only against other players, there's no odds or ISK being created. All winnings are calculated based on amounts that players have bet with. |
TheExtruder
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
19
|
Posted - 2014.10.25 21:13:44 -
[1129] - Quote
personally i would set up dojos in places like Uedama in order to attract more anti-gank support. if active pvp'ers hang out in gank hotspots around highsec it means more people are ready and able to participate in anti-gank fleets (as opposed to being busy pvp'ing and having fun somewhere else long time ago in a galaxy far far away) |
Mharius Skjem
Republic University Minmatar Republic
29
|
Posted - 2014.10.25 22:48:10 -
[1130] - Quote
This idea is very uneve. Hope it dies on its arse.
A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
|
|
Josef Djugashvilis
2620
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 08:04:33 -
[1131] - Quote
I look forward to a dev informing us that this silly idea has been abandoned at best and at worse, left on SiSi.
This is not a signature.
|
TheExtruder
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
19
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 09:01:58 -
[1132] - Quote
people who have bad opinions of dojos probably have some kind of greedy agenda to keep their businesses going or maybe they just want more flies to be caught in their pvp net somewhere in lowsec which nobody cares about |
The Hamilton
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
70
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 10:01:11 -
[1133] - Quote
TheExtruder wrote:people who have bad opinions of dojos probably have some kind of greedy agenda to keep their businesses going or maybe they just want more flies to be caught in their pvp net somewhere in lowsec which nobody cares about
Or just don't want to see space become empty of willing PvPers. Most small gang and solo PvPers would simply use dojo's instead to get their PvP fix instead of going out into the UNKNOWN and creating more meaningful content. Just because you are afraid doesn't mean others are, but making a road easier to travel means that is the one EVE players always take. |
TheExtruder
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
19
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 12:15:41 -
[1134] - Quote
The Hamilton wrote:TheExtruder wrote:people who have bad opinions of dojos probably have some kind of greedy agenda to keep their businesses going or maybe they just want more flies to be caught in their pvp net somewhere in lowsec which nobody cares about Or just don't want to see space become empty of willing PvPers. Most small gang and solo PvPers would simply use dojo's instead to get their PvP fix instead of going out into the UNKNOWN and creating more meaningful content. Just because you are afraid doesn't mean others are, but making a road easier to travel means that is the one EVE players always take.
most people (including myself) that are not very experinced in PvP dont dare to go out into lowsec/null into the UNKNOWN but it doesnt mean the game shouldnt try to appeal to us carebears |
Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
126
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 13:26:05 -
[1135] - Quote
And it's a shame really there is nothing daring about going to low/null, it is space like any other space. |
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
30
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 14:30:42 -
[1136] - Quote
TheExtruder wrote:most people (including myself) that are not very experinced in PvP dont dare to go out into lowsec/null into the UNKNOWN but it doesnt mean the game shouldnt try to appeal to us carebears Yes. Yes it does.
Why don't you dare? Because others are successful, possibly at your expense? And you say the reason to not go to these areas because of your lack of pvp experience, yet going there is how you get said experience. So you, and the others you attempt to speak for are victims of your own self limitation, and want the game catered to suit your limitations.
Lest we forget Eve and the term sandbox used to describe it does not mean you can do what ever you like. It means you can try to do what ever you like. |
TheExtruder
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
19
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 15:22:40 -
[1137] - Quote
Evora Pirkibo wrote:TheExtruder wrote:most people (including myself) that are not very experinced in PvP dont dare to go out into lowsec/null into the UNKNOWN but it doesnt mean the game shouldnt try to appeal to us carebears Yes. Yes it does. Why don't you dare? Because others are successful, possibly at your expense? And you say the reason to not go to these areas because of your lack of pvp experience, yet going there is how you get said experience. So you, and the others you attempt to speak for are victims of your own self limitation, and want the game catered to suit your limitations. Lest we forget Eve and the term sandbox used to describe it does not mean you can do what ever you like. It means you can try to do what ever you like.
fear of unknown is one of the biggest fears for a man. its easy to say "overcome your fear", but hard to do. You can't be so pushy toward carebears to overcome their fears, you have to cater the game around this |
Bastion Arzi
Mortis Angelus The Kadeshi
143
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 15:25:09 -
[1138] - Quote
absolutley friggin AWESOME!
ahem +1 |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1953
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 15:29:17 -
[1139] - Quote
TheExtruder wrote:
you have to cater the game around this
you really dont.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
|
Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
126
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 15:44:53 -
[1140] - Quote
TheExtruder wrote:Evora Pirkibo wrote:TheExtruder wrote:most people (including myself) that are not very experinced in PvP dont dare to go out into lowsec/null into the UNKNOWN but it doesnt mean the game shouldnt try to appeal to us carebears Yes. Yes it does. Why don't you dare? Because others are successful, possibly at your expense? And you say the reason to not go to these areas because of your lack of pvp experience, yet going there is how you get said experience. So you, and the others you attempt to speak for are victims of your own self limitation, and want the game catered to suit your limitations. Lest we forget Eve and the term sandbox used to describe it does not mean you can do what ever you like. It means you can try to do what ever you like. fear of unknown is one of the biggest fears for a man. its easy to say "overcome your fear", but hard to do. You can't be so pushy toward carebears to overcome their fears, you have to cater the game around this Or just explain to noobies that there is nothing to fear in those areas and teach them how to use the tools they already have. |
|
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
30
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 15:46:04 -
[1141] - Quote
TheExtruder wrote:fear of unknown is one of the biggest fears for a man. its easy to say "overcome your fear", but hard to do. You can't be so pushy toward carebears to overcome their fears, you have to cater the game around this You cant be so pushy to cater the game to those unwilling to experience its true nature. Every successful pvper was once not, and learned to overcome their challenges.
If anything, the high concentration of players in highsec indicates a need for dispersal across more areas of space. Not that eve should cater even more content options for those that choose to live exclusively there. We need more reasons for players to leave highsec far more desperately than content to keep them happy there. |
TheExtruder
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
19
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 15:56:38 -
[1142] - Quote
Evora Pirkibo wrote:TheExtruder wrote:fear of unknown is one of the biggest fears for a man. its easy to say "overcome your fear", but hard to do. You can't be so pushy toward carebears to overcome their fears, you have to cater the game around this You cant be so pushy to cater the game to those unwilling to experience its true nature. Every successful pvper was once not, and learned to overcome their challenges. If anything, the high concentration of players in highsec indicates a need for dispersal across more areas of space. Not that eve should cater even more content options for those that choose to live exclusively there. We need more reasons for players to leave highsec far more desperately than content to keep them happy there.
yeah true. but i strongly feel a middle ground needs to be found between those who are active pvp and those who are slowly moving in that direction. if people become experts at fits and know what their ship is capable of in combat, they they will dare to venture out into the unknown more. finding a middle ground is the way to go, thats why ccp is getting better at creating PvE missions, its a middle ground and a preparation for the real thing |
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
30
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 16:24:40 -
[1143] - Quote
Not really. But the middle ground is emergent, and preexisting. For example, RvB - RED Federation, which you should be familiar with. The middle ground is within the social component, talk to those that are successful and seek advice and help. there are plenty willing to give it. Not to mention the numerous streams, youtube videos, and guides easily accessible outside of the game. When you get right down to it, there is no substitute for the real thing.
And as a previous poster kindly pointed out, there really isn't anything to fear from venturing out of your comfort zone. Just gaps in knowledge to close. |
Mharius Skjem
Republic University Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 16:57:36 -
[1144] - Quote
TheExtruder wrote:people who have bad opinions of dojos probably have some kind of greedy agenda to keep their businesses going or maybe they just want more flies to be caught in their pvp net somewhere in lowsec which nobody cares about
Complete Bullshit.
I'm not a pvper and even I see this as against all of the founding principles of Eve Online.
An Instance in the Sandbox...
A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
|
TheExtruder
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
19
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 17:31:27 -
[1145] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:TheExtruder wrote:people who have bad opinions of dojos probably have some kind of greedy agenda to keep their businesses going or maybe they just want more flies to be caught in their pvp net somewhere in lowsec which nobody cares about Complete Bullshit. I'm not a pvper and even I see this as against all of the founding principles of Eve Online. An Instance in the Sandbox...
what is this sandbox exactly, is it not a playground for all the kids no matter what toys they choose to play with
i have flown with the big guys in null, and i have experienced/lived the blob mentality, its just not for me at the moment because i choose to live a different type of "social mentality" in highsec where i can create corporations and channels around anti-ganking for example or whatever else, its simply my career path. I would like to have access to pvp in this type of social lifestyle in highsec, the closest that comes to fulfilling my pvp needs are NPSI fleets like spectre fleet channel, but even in NPSI there is a sense of blob mentality which i am not a big fan of currently because of my lack of understanding of ships and fits that i would consider fun to try out. Dojos would be a way to dive deeper into the ship fits and from there new pvp schemes can grow, these schemes might drive me back into more dangerous territory like lowsec/null where fear of loss is amplified |
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 18:43:34 -
[1146] - Quote
Eve's sandbox is where the kids can play with their toys, and other kids can come kick sand in your face, stomp all over your toys, and perhaps ransom the bits back to you. Or just laugh in your face.
There are much better means of driving conflict and content into low/null. |
TheExtruder
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
19
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 19:10:13 -
[1147] - Quote
Evora Pirkibo wrote:Eve's sandbox is where the kids can play with their toys, and other kids can come kick sand in your face, stomp all over your toys, and perhaps ransom the bits back to you. Or just laugh in your face.
There are much better means of driving conflict and content into low/null.
i guess a higher evolved sandbox would be more like what we have in real life society, where people cant necessarily have an easy time to "stomp all over other peoples toys" because then they would get into trouble and the whole thing wouldnt be worth it to begin with |
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
32
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 19:37:18 -
[1148] - Quote
What makes you think its easy? Your argument has been that its hard and requires a superfluous "middle ground" to make an easier transition to a harder playstyle. The trade of sapping content from low on the chance more people would venture there is a very bad deal. As if you dont need to go there, why not just play controlled instanced pvp instead? Especially considering plenty go out of their way to mitigate any kind of risk.
Eve is far removed from the real world, and rightly so. Our environment from conception has been one involving freedom of choice.
Honestly, why do people expect honest combat from those that live in highsec nigh exclusively? These players are demonstrating a pattern of risk aversion behavior before you even meet each other, then you expect them to not use any advantage they can? Simply counter intuitive.
Basicly, pvp matchmaking in eve is alien to its very nature. |
Gaan Cathal
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
13
|
Posted - 2014.10.27 20:02:55 -
[1149] - Quote
Sierra Payne wrote: So here I am, going out for a roam in FW space. I do not have a link-alt available to get boosts so about 75% of the fights are badly in the opponent's favor. So I am sitting there with skills that need some work, fighting someone who has a massive advantage and you then tell me it's my fault I can't find fightable targets without just throwing ISK at it and pray?
It's a problem that puts a lot of new players off.
You're right, that's a big issue. However, it's probably best solved by actually fixing the problem (the fact that off-grid boosting happens, which is a plague and needs to be purged with fire) as opposed to turning the core principles of Eve's sandbox on it's head.
If this ever makes it to TQ you'll actually have a class of character that's more deserving of the 'carebear' appellation than afk miners. |
Bastion Arzi
Mortis Angelus The Kadeshi
149
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 00:33:35 -
[1150] - Quote
havent read the whole thread just the first few pages.
but i have to say this is the single most awesome idea i have heard of yet in eve and also that i cant understand the fear and skeptisim behind putting this on TQ.
I have played eve since Dec 2012 so im a relatively young character but i feel the addition of this feature will breath new life into the game.
Eve is an awesome game, and i love it. But man at times i just want to log on and pvp.
I've been in Hi, Lo, Null and wherever i go sometimes (most of the time) space is just dead. You can roam for ages and find nothing. Making the whole experience boring.
Even in RvB its duifficult to find a fight all the time. Sure you get more fights but sometimes theres just nothing going on.
This is why for a short while i stopped playing eve and just logged in to update my skillqueue. Other games had more instant gratification so I went there.
I have now returned to eve to give nul another go in the hopes of finding gf''s.
sometimes there are. but most of the time space is dead.
but if eve had this feature, i would never be bored. imagine during fleet downtime you can instantly find pvp. practice ur game , actually get better...
I think it would certainly open up pvp to new players as well. which is fantastic because its so awesome in this game when **** actually goes down.
I really cant express enough how excited i am by this.
Someone else posted that what if people just stayed in station using the dojo all the time instead actually 'playing' eve.
Of course people will still play the game. Use the space, go on roams, find the kills. Theres also always going to be pos' and poco's to bash and fights to be had out of it. Hi sec war decs, low sec FW, Null SOV and of course bitter vets who dont like change.
Dont worry, I dont think this will break eve.
This will make it even more ******* awesome.
One problem tho if it does get really popular. is like when u have to form up quickly to save some 'assets' becuase someone is attacking something or other. Sometimes u need to form u fast and if poepl are stuck in the instance they wont be forming up fast. So there should be an option to quit the dojo at any time.
Flame all u want this dojo idea is aweome!
|
|
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 01:08:32 -
[1151] - Quote
No. Think it through from a perspective wider than your own want for instant gratification. The opposition is more than just angry fire, there are plenty of well reasoned posts describing exactly how this is detrimental the overall gameplay environment.
The problem of dead space and stagnation would only be exacerbated by the implementation of dojos, explained repeatedly within this thread. An increase in conflict drivers and player matriculation is the cure.
Veritas pushed this out on his second to last day with CCP before moving to riot gaming, the company behind league of legends. This should indicate the kind of content he wishes to create, and how it not so coincidentally isn't with CCP. |
Bastion Arzi
Mortis Angelus The Kadeshi
149
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 01:27:47 -
[1152] - Quote
whatever.
anyway i tried to dl duality but the link is down. just thought u shud know. |
TheExtruder
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
20
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 22:06:54 -
[1153] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:havent read the whole thread just the first few pages.
but i have to say this is the single most awesome idea i have heard of yet in eve and also that i cant understand the fear and skeptisim behind putting this on TQ.
I have played eve since Dec 2012 so im a relatively young character but i feel the addition of this feature will breath new life into the game.
Eve is an awesome game, and i love it. But man at times i just want to log on and pvp.
I've been in Hi, Lo, Null and wherever i go sometimes (most of the time) space is just dead. You can roam for ages and find nothing. Making the whole experience boring.
Even in RvB its duifficult to find a fight all the time. Sure you get more fights but sometimes theres just nothing going on.
This is why for a short while i stopped playing eve and just logged in to update my skillqueue. Other games had more instant gratification so I went there.
I have now returned to eve to give nul another go in the hopes of finding gf''s.
sometimes there are. but most of the time space is dead.
but if eve had this feature, i would never be bored. imagine during fleet downtime you can instantly find pvp. practice ur game , actually get better...
I think it would certainly open up pvp to new players as well. which is fantastic because its so awesome in this game when **** actually goes down.
I really cant express enough how excited i am by this.
Someone else posted that what if people just stayed in station using the dojo all the time instead actually 'playing' eve.
Of course people will still play the game. Use the space, go on roams, find the kills. Theres also always going to be pos' and poco's to bash and fights to be had out of it. Hi sec war decs, low sec FW, Null SOV and of course bitter vets who dont like change.
Dont worry, I dont think this will break eve.
This will make it even more ******* awesome.
One problem tho if it does get really popular. is like when u have to form up quickly to save some 'assets' becuase someone is attacking something or other. Sometimes u need to form u fast and if poepl are stuck in the instance they wont be forming up fast. So there should be an option to quit the dojo at any time.
Flame all u want this dojo idea is aweome!
well said. |
Nathan Shavit
Shavit Risk Management
20
|
Posted - 2014.11.07 14:58:41 -
[1154] - Quote
It may be controversial, but I like this concept :)
There is no problem an air strike cannot solve.
|
TheExtruder
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
20
|
Posted - 2014.11.07 17:37:21 -
[1155] - Quote
i am sure i am not the only one who has been actively trying to organize 5v5 or 10v10 tournaments. eve mechanics sadly make it very hard for us because people always choose a safer and more "isk reliable path in the game" rather than wasting time on a gamble and tournaments where loss of money is possibility not to mention being griefed by gankers. So i think its a brilliant idea that the host/owner of the dojo pays for all the ships rather than having to communicate back and forth forever about what ships and fits to bring to peole that are not very motivated to participate (probably because they are uncertain about what the match will look like) |
TheExtruder
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
20
|
Posted - 2014.11.10 15:27:02 -
[1156] - Quote
i was trying to do some arranged 5v5 this weekend in RvB but people seem to prefer their own ships, fits and schemes. and they seem to prefer to have a fight the normal way, probably because they are uncertain of how it will look like to fight in other peoples ship setups (even if they were provided to them for free, which is what i was offering this weekend but i couldnt show the ships to them and i had no way of sharing my vision of how the fight might look like in all its glory)
Would it be possible to get a prefitted ship from the dojo and then be able to switch around certain midslot modules for example, maybe the host of the dojo can make it so that certain midslot items can be switched around for example.
I think the core of what a dojo will do is it will give people "an overview" of how all the ship fittings will clash with each other (its a way for the host of the dojo to share his vision of what he thinks would be an epic fight) and I think people should be able to represent their corp in terms of kill stats and success rate in dojos (statistics). Give pilots a "cause to fight for" by getting killmails and freedom to add to the amount of kills that has happened for that specific cause, it can be political, it can be a charity, it can be a commercial, it can be a recruitment campaign etc. random people can join in as independant mercenaries fighting for whatever cause they enjoy supporting and their way of backing it up is (not through the traditional way of joining a corp) but rather through joining an event as an independant individual. Like in real life people enjoy the "event platform" and they join events probably because they have some kind of motive or drive behind it, in eve that drive would translate to getting kills and money. |
Titanito 777
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.11.22 22:11:20 -
[1157] - Quote
Is Dojo introduced in the game? Or from the Dojo refused? |
Mharius Skjem
Opacity Circles
159
|
Posted - 2014.11.22 23:35:26 -
[1158] - Quote
With any luck Dojos will all die in a fire.
A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
|
TheExtruder
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
23
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 01:18:11 -
[1159] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:With any luck Dojos will all die in a fire.
what it takes you to rally a fleet will take a dojo twice as fast to get the job done. nothing wrong with a little efficiency. we have enough corporations, world is not gonna end if those few people in power of those mega corporations/alliances get a few less fleets happening, let their territory burn to the ground for all i care |
Hairpins Blueprint
CBC Interstellar Fidelas Constans
92
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 01:25:42 -
[1160] - Quote
i think this should should be rented from concord so corps and alliances can have theire small tournaments.
but the structure should be baned in hi sec space. |
|
TheExtruder
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
23
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 09:51:34 -
[1161] - Quote
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:i think this should should be rented from concord so corps and alliances can have theire small tournaments.
but the structure should be baned in hi sec space.
it would be super cool to have it, but it should not interfere with normal pvp in any way.
Make it like special tournamet only thing.
200 mil per 24h can not be used in Hi sec space
dont think i have heard worse argument ever. and why is highsec of all places so precious to you in terms of banning pvp there? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
4239
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 12:27:14 -
[1162] - Quote
TheExtruder wrote:Hairpins Blueprint wrote:i think this should should be rented from concord so corps and alliances can have theire small tournaments.
but the structure should be baned in hi sec space.
it would be super cool to have it, but it should not interfere with normal pvp in any way.
Make it like special tournamet only thing.
200 mil per 24h can not be used in Hi sec space dont think i have heard worse argument ever. and why is highsec of all places so precious to you in terms of banning pvp there?
tbh, highsec space is where it has the most use. Especially with the corp aggression changes being talked about.
Woo! CSM 9!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13971
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 12:36:22 -
[1163] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:
Wel ive read some more of them and they seems to boil down to "but i wanna gank your ship in space and if ur preventing me from doing that ur removing content" without really addressing the fact that ccp are actually adding content into the game.
What content are they adding here? You can already organise 1v1s and this thing will indeed remove content from people who want to pvp you.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
TheExtruder
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
23
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 12:57:47 -
[1164] - Quote
problem with organizeing tournaments is that it requires organizers. it would be a BIG mistake from ccp if they relied on "real life talented organizers" to provide this type of pvp content (i say this type because its an arranged fight, a fair fight).
im a fairly talented organizer in real life and in game, i have a few channels in-game that i run, and i regularly try to organize fair fights and tournaments, but 90% of the time it never happens. Organizers like myself would much appreciate this mechanic because it can be used as a tool for me to communicate to the people what i would like the fight to look like, when you can share your vision in a practical way things will move very quickly toward becoming a reality, and in the end thats what we want MORE QUICK WAYS FOR ACTION TO HAPPEN |
Adrie Atticus
Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion
564
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 14:36:36 -
[1165] - Quote
TheExtruder wrote:Evora Pirkibo wrote:Eve's sandbox is where the kids can play with their toys, and other kids can come kick sand in your face, stomp all over your toys, and perhaps ransom the bits back to you. Or just laugh in your face.
There are much better means of driving conflict and content into low/null. i guess a higher evolved sandbox would be more like what we have in real life society, where people cant necessarily have an easy time to "stomp all over other peoples toys" because then they would get into trouble and the whole thing wouldnt be worth it to begin with
You do understand that this kind of thinking is the reason why criminals exist in real life?
We're playing in a sandbox with a set of rules which apply to everyone, none of the rules are preventative in ship-to-ship interaction. Concord is there to punish, not to prevent. If you create an area of space which prevents any unsolicited PvP interaction, then you explicitly create an environment where more and more rules and regulations will be called for to protect those who just want to fly their pink unicorns in the pretty skies.
Games with dojo-like mechanics already exist and they have their crowd, that crowd is not compatible with the crowd in New Eden. |
TheExtruder
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
23
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 18:34:40 -
[1166] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:TheExtruder wrote:Evora Pirkibo wrote:Eve's sandbox is where the kids can play with their toys, and other kids can come kick sand in your face, stomp all over your toys, and perhaps ransom the bits back to you. Or just laugh in your face.
There are much better means of driving conflict and content into low/null. i guess a higher evolved sandbox would be more like what we have in real life society, where people cant necessarily have an easy time to "stomp all over other peoples toys" because then they would get into trouble and the whole thing wouldnt be worth it to begin with You do understand that this kind of thinking is the reason why criminals exist in real life? We're playing in a sandbox with a set of rules which apply to everyone, none of the rules are preventative in ship-to-ship interaction. Concord is there to punish, not to prevent. If you create an area of space which prevents any unsolicited PvP interaction, then you explicitly create an environment where more and more rules and regulations will be called for to protect those who just want to fly their pink unicorns in the pretty skies. Games with dojo-like mechanics already exist and they have their crowd, that crowd is not compatible with the crowd in New Eden.
If you were refering to my old response to somebody then i didnt understand a word of what you said in terms of how it relates to my post. Also a lot of the things you said i strongly disagree with such as "they have their own crowd, and that crowd is not competitive with new eden". |
TheExtruder
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
36
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 16:03:39 -
[1167] - Quote
i wanted to share my latest scheme for a tournament that i wanted to arrange but it never happend, the main reason is its not the best idea out there and its a little weird for most people who dont recognize the type of rules, second reason was i am to busy in real life to bother getting people to join this, third reason is people often feel a strong disbelief that others will show up to this party (its like an empty party room, which is kindof depressing to hang around in that room waiting for others to join, so people abandon the idea of participating right away becuase they dont want to commit to anything which takes time to build up, especially if the person who is asking them to build something is somebody they dont know very well)...
Nexus Wars
Tournament style arena. Each team decides in advance on a mixed bag of ships (what ship sizes etc). The twist is that the FC can only send 1 ship every 1 minute into the arena, it is up to the FC to decide in which order to send out his ships into the arena. The fight in the arena can quickly escalate into a large fight, The goal is to survive long enough until proper reinforcements arrive for your team to have the upper hand.
Bring your own ships Faction ships allowed tech2 fitting allowed Max 2 cruiser logis per team allowed in the arena, or max 4 frig logis allowed in the arena. Fight at Otela 200km undock
Ship doctrines: mixed bag 1 Tristan position filled Bantam position filled Incursus Thrasher etc.
mixed bag 2 Tristan Bantam position filled Incursus Thrasher position filled etc.
anyways, fingers crossed ccp, you are not far away from realizing this long awaited dream mechanic |
TheExtruder
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
37
|
Posted - 2014.12.09 19:22:20 -
[1168] - Quote
i wrote this in some other thread, and thought it was a good point to make:
trying to get somebody to participate in your tournament is like trying to get a woman to agree to follow you, you should never put anyone in a position of having to "think", they should feel relaxed following your leadership and enjoy the carefree ride where they feel safe that the other will take care of the details, its like turning off your mind for a few minutes while you put trust in the other. Having predetermined fitting is partly what allows you to "trust" |
TheExtruder
Internet Spaceship Business
49
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 14:28:27 -
[1169] - Quote
i wrote this in general discussion "corp little things thread"
"live recruitment events in-game" which are done locally by corporations. During these events pilots should feel safe and guarded by concord or be protected against sneaky pvp mechanics that can be abused by pirates. Perhaps Dojos can be used for this since they provide a sort of arena where you can hang out with the people you are considering joining. To me a live event would probably include: having the opportunity to show off your ship and fit, get the opportunity to follow an FC's decision making during a live exercise, enjoy the level of detail and effort the recruiters have put in into their recruitment event... etc.
I think its important that a dojo can be used as an "event" and a hangout (an event platform). One shouldnt necessarily have to be in a rush, maybe its a good idea to make it possible to stay in a dojo for longer than 1 hour or more depending on who the guest is and if you intend to recruit people |
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T
584
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 17:14:20 -
[1170] - Quote
I am tentative on this idea. On the one hand it provides abother feature many people want. On the other it may become insta pvp / anti roaming. If the idea is added... i would actually prefer it if Capsuleers could build "dojo" structures. (Structures that can be attacked via suspect or war dec). Then different operation parameters can be set. The possibility of having things stocked by othrr players on the market. Etc |
|
Wild Things
Mining Industry Exile Foundation Warlords of the Deep
21
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 18:49:55 -
[1171] - Quote
Any chance of an update on this?
Definitely still a lot of interest in the tournament community and beyond.
In this moment, I am euphoric.
|
Fox God
12
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 06:27:25 -
[1172] - Quote
WTB This pl0x |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
703
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 06:29:00 -
[1173] - Quote
Fox God wrote:WTB This pl0x WTK this pl0x. It got unstickied so it could die in peace.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 40 .. 40 :: [one page] |