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Sticky:[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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S'No Flake Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 42	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:14:25 - [511] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: S'No Flake wrote: baltec1 wrote: S'No Flake wrote: Mara Rinn wrote: Use a blockade runner to move your fittings, use the Bowhead to move the rigged & insured hulls. ALSO ENSURE YOU DON'T AUTOPILOT THROUGH UEDAMA, NIARJA, DELTOLE or other 0.5 choke points. Perhaps consider running alongside the hauler with logistics cruisers to ensure that would-be gankers have to focus on alpha damage rather than 30s worth of shooting. And let's see where it stands after a couple of months, perhaps when CCP sees nobody using it they will try buffing it to the point that people feel safe carrying three Nightmare hulls in one hauler. It doesn't matter if you autopilot or not. You will still be bumped out of alignment in the 8..10s MWD cycle. And a 'choke point' it's well... a choke point. You can't avoid them unless you want to spend the next 3 days moving stuff while traveling 100+ jumps. If you feel this way then bring a fleet of your own for protection. And what is the point of bringing a fleet to escort this ship when in that case you can just more all the ships individually with much more EHP maybe fitting some links in that fleet making them even safer? Wouldn't make the point of introducing this ship ... well, useless? ever thought it's designed for low value high volumes of ships rather than low volume high value? hint hint; people shouldn't stuff these full of shiny things people want to gank you for, like every other freighter! Indeed so, multiple trips, which again, defeats the purpose. You are better moving each of the ship individually in the same number of trips for much more safety.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13847	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:14:33 - [512] - Quote Malou Hashur wrote: Jean Luc Lemmont wrote: CCP Rise wrote: Darirol wrote: why do all those industrial ships have a speed bonus? Because travel speed is one of the most important characteristics for haulers. Capacity, gank resilience and travel speed are basically it. Given the current highsec meta of "GANK ALL THE THINGS", I think many people, myself inluded, see a raw speed bonus as a waste. With Bumper Cars Online, a speed bonus is less than useless - it's actually harmful since it increases the unmodified time it takes you to get into warp. Please consider an agility or (!) hull resistance bonus modifier per level. Another example of the Devs not having a clue how the game is actually played. Ever piloted a capital or orca out of bubbles? Suddenly you love that speed bonus. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
S'No Flake Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 42	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:16:32 - [513] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Quote: And what is the point of bringing a fleet to escort this ship when in that case you can just more all the ships individually with much more EHP maybe fitting some links in that fleet making them even safer? Wouldn't make the point of introducing this ship ... well, useless? Because when we deploy we only bring one fleet worth of ships I can now bring three megathrons on deployments in one trip. Or an entire replacement harpy/bomber fleet in just one ship. No more scrapping of rigs when we redeploy and no more begging for carrier space. It makes more sense to use it to bridge it with a titan with a **** load of HACs/AFs/Bombers/etc inside, in 0.0 than use it in HS :) I'm debating the use of this ship where CCP intended to be used: HS
Dave Stark 7141	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:19:33 - [514] - Quote S'No Flake wrote: Dave Stark wrote: S'No Flake wrote: Dave Stark wrote: S'No Flake wrote: It carries about 4 times more than Oraca so, it needs 4 times more EHP to keep EHP/cargo ratio no it doesn't. people need to be less dumb. just because you have x cargo doesn't mean you need to fill all the space. ehp/cargo ratio is about as useful and relevant as the slugs/snowflakes ratio of my garden. That was sarcasm :P Most people flying freighters have a web alt (which can fail on regional gates) so, i don't see the point of using this ship if you are an incursion runner flying your logi/DPS ships to a new spawn or your DPS/Sniper ships. You can get much more buffer from your individual ships with travel fit and allows you to use mwd+cloak and you can use ASB+AAR. If you have to move more than 2 ships, this new freighter it's pretty much useless as you will still have to do 2 runs because of how expensive your cargo is: 2 pirate hulls + 2 logi ships will go way over 2bil mark (without fittings) hence, 2 trips. I might be wrong but i don't see any case where this ships is better for anyone with 2 characters. And if you have only one character only, the amount you will move at one time to be somehow gank safe will make it useless and you are better using an orca. shrug so you might have to make a few choices. seems fine to me. There is no choice seriously. If you use one char, an Orca it's better if the cost of the stuff you move it's less than 1bil. Much more tank for the isk you move. If you use 2 chars you are better if you fly the ships separately instead of flying the bowhead because you get better tank + cloak/mwd. It seems to have no point of flying this in HS. Yes, the example of moving 90 harpies, escorted trough low or 0.0 it's cool but, it's not the role CCP wants for this ship :) or you can choose to put it all in the 1 bowhead, and take the relevant precautions to only have to make the trip once.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13847	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:20:38 - [515] - Quote S'No Flake wrote: baltec1 wrote: Quote: And what is the point of bringing a fleet to escort this ship when in that case you can just more all the ships individually with much more EHP maybe fitting some links in that fleet making them even safer? Wouldn't make the point of introducing this ship ... well, useless? Because when we deploy we only bring one fleet worth of ships I can now bring three megathrons on deployments in one trip. Or an entire replacement harpy/bomber fleet in just one ship. No more scrapping of rigs when we redeploy and no more begging for carrier space. It makes more sense to use it to bridge it with a titan with a ** load of HACs/AFs/Bombers/etc inside, in 0.0 than use it in HS :) I'm debating the use of this ship where CCP intended to be used: HS You are debating it wrong then. It doesnt matter if CCP said its for high sec, fact is that it will see the bulk of its use in null by the organised powers. You dont see a use for it, fine, let the people who do have a use for it have this much wanted ship. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship**
S'No Flake Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 42	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:30:59 - [516] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: S'No Flake wrote: Dave Stark wrote: There is no choice seriously. If you use one char, an Orca it's better if the cost of the stuff you move it's less than 1bil. Much more tank for the isk you move. If you use 2 chars you are better if you fly the ships separately instead of flying the bowhead because you get better tank + cloak/mwd. It seems to have no point of flying this in HS. Yes, the example of moving 90 harpies, escorted trough low or 0.0 it's cool but, it's not the role CCP wants for this ship :) or you can choose to put it all in the 1 bowhead, and take the relevant precautions to only have to make the trip once. Ha, define relevant precautions while you use only one character to move 2 fitted incursion BSs with a Bowhead in one trip.
Dave Stark 7141	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:31:44 - [517] - Quote S'No Flake wrote: Dave Stark wrote: S'No Flake wrote: Dave Stark wrote: There is no choice seriously. If you use one char, an Orca it's better if the cost of the stuff you move it's less than 1bil. Much more tank for the isk you move. If you use 2 chars you are better if you fly the ships separately instead of flying the bowhead because you get better tank + cloak/mwd. It seems to have no point of flying this in HS. Yes, the example of moving 90 harpies, escorted trough low or 0.0 it's cool but, it's not the role CCP wants for this ship :) or you can choose to put it all in the 1 bowhead, and take the relevant precautions to only have to make the trip once. Ha, define relevant precautions while you use only one character to move 2 fitted incursion BSs with a Bowhead in one trip. you could just read the thread? anyway, as i pointed out earlier, blue frog have no issue moving 5bn isk of junk back and forth so i'm sure you can manage it.
S'No Flake Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 42	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:32:12 - [518] - Quote baltec1 wrote: S'No Flake wrote: baltec1 wrote: Quote: And what is the point of bringing a fleet to escort this ship when in that case you can just more all the ships individually with much more EHP maybe fitting some links in that fleet making them even safer? Wouldn't make the point of introducing this ship ... well, useless? Because when we deploy we only bring one fleet worth of ships I can now bring three megathrons on deployments in one trip. Or an entire replacement harpy/bomber fleet in just one ship. No more scrapping of rigs when we redeploy and no more begging for carrier space. It makes more sense to use it to bridge it with a titan with a **** load of HACs/AFs/Bombers/etc inside, in 0.0 than use it in HS :) I'm debating the use of this ship where CCP intended to be used: HS You are debating it wrong then. It doesnt matter if CCP said its for high sec, fact is that it will see the bulk of its use in null by the organised powers. You dont see a use for it, fine, let the people who do have a use for it have this much wanted ship. I don't see use a use for it in HS where CCP intended to be used. It's a good logistics ship outside of the intended scope, i'm not contesting that :)
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13847	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:35:10 - [519] - Quote S'No Flake wrote: baltec1 wrote: S'No Flake wrote: baltec1 wrote: Quote: And what is the point of bringing a fleet to escort this ship when in that case you can just more all the ships individually with much more EHP maybe fitting some links in that fleet making them even safer? Wouldn't make the point of introducing this ship ... well, useless? Because when we deploy we only bring one fleet worth of ships I can now bring three megathrons on deployments in one trip. Or an entire replacement harpy/bomber fleet in just one ship. No more scrapping of rigs when we redeploy and no more begging for carrier space. It makes more sense to use it to bridge it with a titan with a ** load of HACs/AFs/Bombers/etc inside, in 0.0 than use it in HS :) I'm debating the use of this ship where CCP intended to be used: HS You are debating it wrong then. It doesnt matter if CCP said its for high sec, fact is that it will see the bulk of its use in null by the organised powers. You dont see a use for it, fine, let the people who do have a use for it have this much wanted ship. I don't see use a use for it in HS where CCP intended to be used. It's a good logistics ship outside of the intended scope, i'm not contesting that :) Just ignore that comment on highsec, its most likely there to confuse the high sec bears just long enough to get it in game before they realise its an industrial ship aimed at combat pilots. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship**
S'No Flake Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 42	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:35:33 - [520] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: S'No Flake wrote: Dave Stark wrote: S'No Flake wrote: Dave Stark wrote: There is no choice seriously. If you use one char, an Orca it's better if the cost of the stuff you move it's less than 1bil. Much more tank for the isk you move. If you use 2 chars you are better if you fly the ships separately instead of flying the bowhead because you get better tank + cloak/mwd. It seems to have no point of flying this in HS. Yes, the example of moving 90 harpies, escorted trough low or 0.0 it's cool but, it's not the role CCP wants for this ship :) or you can choose to put it all in the 1 bowhead, and take the relevant precautions to only have to make the trip once. Ha, define relevant precautions while you use only one character to move 2 fitted incursion BSs with a Bowhead in one trip. you could just read the thread? I did. Web alt won't work if you have one character. Max tank with DC2 + bulkheads + rigs and resists + mwd in mids will not save you from anything really. The mwd it's useless without a cloak as you can be bumped until downtime and the tank it's barely superior to an Orca where at this point you are better doing multiple trips in anything else but the bowhead.

Veers Belvar Swordmasters of New Eden 259	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:36:12 - [521] - Quote baltec1 wrote: You are debating it wrong then. It doesnt matter if CCP said its for high sec, fact is that it will see the bulk of its use in null by the organised powers. You dont see a use for it, fine, let the people who do have a use for it have this much wanted ship. That would mean that CCP is designing it improperly. There is no need to make logistics easier for the big nullsec powerblocs...in fact the current meta is to make logistics more difficult for them. What there is a need for is something in highsec to help incursion runners avoid the boredom of moving their ships around one by one, which they can currently do with 100% safety by using cloak + mwd + travel fit. To replace this with a slow freighter with mediocre tank that can easily be bumped into helplessness for gankers to kill it is, as you rightly point out, something that won't see much use in highsec. The solution to that isn't to give up and accept that it wont see use in highsec, rather it's to design it so that it has more tank and enough agility to avoid bumping, so that incursion runners will be comfortable sticking 3 pirate faction battleships inside. The point isn't to make it impervious to ganking, rather it's to ensure that gankers need to bring enough dps to kill it on the first go, not be able to bump it and come with 3 different waves of gankers at 15 minute intervals.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 565	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:38:03 - [522] - Quote S'No Flake wrote: It makes more sense to use it to bridge it with a titan with a ** load of HACs/AFs/Bombers/etc inside, in 0.0 than use it in HS :) I'm debating the use of this ship where CCP intended to be used: HS So this ship is the "work around" for jump fatigue? Step (1) Put your pilots into travel fit interceptors and burn like ** to the target location Step (2) Pray there is no pipe bombing. Step (3) Bridge a Bowhead into the system with a metricfucktonne of pre fitted HACs in the hold. Step (4) ?? Step (5) Switch inty's for HACs at the Bowhead and safe/log off the Bowhead Step (6) Win the battle Step (7) Profit Only issue is having a stranded Bowhead if it all goes pete tong

CCP Rise C C P 4557	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:39:16 - [523] - Quote Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers. @ccp_rise

Dave Stark 7141	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:41:28 - [524] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers. i'd still rather have had a warp speed bonus... also GJ caving to whiners.
War Kitten Panda McLegion 5479	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:42:16 - [525] - Quote If your webbing alt is getting popped and/or missing the target on regional gates, perhaps you're using the wrong ship to web with. A Hyena is just a low cost option with longer range... its not the only option, nor the best. If you realize that a webbing ship is critical to your success, wouldn't it also be wise to use a ship with some EHP for this task too? I swear, some people have to have all their thinking done for them... I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
Dave Stark 7141	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:43:36 - [526] - Quote War Kitten wrote: I swear, some people have to have all their thinking done for them... not when rise gives in to their whining, they don't.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13849	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:44:59 - [527] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers. Could you run the numbers on a bulkhead fit?, I dont have any fitting tools or paper with me. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
War Kitten Panda McLegion 5479	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:52:57 - [528] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers. What? No drones? No increased capacity? I am disappointed. I still think you should've gone with a more even split of shield, armor and structure and made tanking it any of 3 ways viable. Doubling shield AND more structure is overkill I think. I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.

CCP Rise C C P 4557	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:53:59 - [529] - Quote baltec1 wrote: CCP Rise wrote: Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers. Could you run the numbers on a bulkhead fit?, I dont have any fitting tools or paper with me. 1 DCU, 2 t2 bulkhead, 3 t1 transverse, 3 t2 invuln is around 420k EHP, is that the numbers you were hoping for? @ccp_rise

baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13850	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:55:25 - [530] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: baltec1 wrote: CCP Rise wrote: Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers. Could you run the numbers on a bulkhead fit?, I dont have any fitting tools or paper with me. 1 DCU, 2 t2 bulkhead, 3 t1 transverse, 3 t2 invuln is around 420k EHP, is that the numbers you were hoping for? More than enough. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship

Dave Stark 7141	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:56:42 - [531] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: baltec1 wrote: CCP Rise wrote: Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers. Could you run the numbers on a bulkhead fit?, I dont have any fitting tools or paper with me. 1 DCU, 2 t2 bulkhead, 3 t1 transverse, 3 t2 invuln is around 420k EHP, is that the numbers you were hoping for? inb4 "still not enough ehp".
Arthur Aihaken X A X 3911	Posted - 2014.11.11 15:57:29 - [532] - Quote baltec1 wrote: It doesnt matter if CCP said its for high sec, fact is that it will see the bulk of its use in null by the organised powers. You dont see a use for it, fine, let the people who do have a use for it have this much wanted ship. So what you're saying is... Extremely useful in null-sec - gank magnet in high-sec? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Valterra Craven 317	Posted - 2014.11.11 16:00:02 - [533] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers. The more I look at the skills outlay for how you guys set up Capital ships the more I think you guys haven't actually planned on these and just do them on a whim. Take a look at the prereqs for the skill "Capital Ships" (hint: there are two!) Now take a look at the prereqs for the skill Capital Industrial Ships (hint: there are over 10!) Please for the love of all that is rational remove the skills reqs that don't make since from the Capital Industrial Ships skill and move them to the roq and then use the Capital Industrial Ship Skill as the skill going forward for ships like the bowhead and the roq!
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13850	Posted - 2014.11.11 16:01:33 - [534] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: baltec1 wrote: It doesnt matter if CCP said its for high sec, fact is that it will see the bulk of its use in null by the organised powers. You dont see a use for it, fine, let the people who do have a use for it have this much wanted ship. So what you're saying is... Extremely useful in null-sec - gank magnet in high-sec? I honestly dont see many of the usual gankbait players using this ship. Supplies of ships out of jita will still be more efficiently trasported in packaged form. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
S'No Flake Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 42	Posted - 2014.11.11 16:03:44 - [535] - Quote War Kitten wrote: If your webbing alt is getting popped and/or missing the target on regional gates, perhaps you're using the wrong ship to web with. A Hyena is just a low cost option with longer range... its not the only option, nor the best. If you realize that a webbing ship is critical to your success, wouldn't it also be wise to use a ship with some EHP for this task too? I swear, some people have to have all their thinking done for them... If you have to move 2 incursions ships, why using a web + bowhead instead of moving the ships by themselves with much more tank and cloak+mwd? DPS ship + Orca with your choice of logi ships inside it's much much more safer :)
Dave Stark 7141	Posted - 2014.11.11 16:14:10 - [536] - Quote S'No Flake wrote: War Kitten wrote: If your webbing alt is getting popped and/or missing the target on regional gates, perhaps you're using the wrong ship to web with. A Hyena is just a low cost option with longer range... its not the only option, nor the best. If you realize that a webbing ship is critical to your success, wouldn't it also be wise to use a ship with some EHP for this task too? I swear, some people have to have all their thinking done for them... If you have to move 2 incursions ships, why using a web + bowhead instead of moving the ships by themselves with much more tank and cloak+mwd? DPS ship + Orca with your choice of logi ships inside it's much much more safer :) great so you made a choice, now stop going on about it.
Arronicus Fusion Enterprises Ltd Brothers of Tangra 1252	Posted - 2014.11.11 16:22:21 - [537] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: baltec1 wrote: CCP Rise wrote: Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers. Could you run the numbers on a bulkhead fit?, I dont have any fitting tools or paper with me. 1 DCU, 2 t2 bulkhead, 3 t1 transverse, 3 t2 invuln is around 420k EHP, is that the numbers you were hoping for? Nice to see the chunk of shields added. Being as exclusive as it was before to hulltanks only excluded the possibility of using Logi to help keep the ship alive if running any sort of logi along with it. This opens up some better possibilities. I think it is funny how actively goons are pushing to NOT have the hp increased, specifically so that the ship will be only effective as gankbait. It's as if Baltec and Dave Stark don't even want these to be used.
War Kitten Panda McLegion 5479	Posted - 2014.11.11 16:24:10 - [538] - Quote S'No Flake wrote: War Kitten wrote: If your webbing alt is getting popped and/or missing the target on regional gates, perhaps you're using the wrong ship to web with. A Hyena is just a low cost option with longer range... its not the only option, nor the best. If you realize that a webbing ship is critical to your success, wouldn't it also be wise to use a ship with some EHP for this task too? I swear, some people have to have all their thinking done for them... If you have to move 2 incursions ships, why using a web + bowhead instead of moving the ships by themselves with much more tank and cloak+mwd? DPS ship + Orca with your choice of logi ships inside it's much much more safer :) If you have to move 2 ships, you don't have a problem that this ship solves. Move along. I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
Arthur Aihaken X A X 3911	Posted - 2014.11.11 16:24:13 - [539] - Quote baltec1 wrote: I honestly dont see many of the usual gankbait players using this ship. Supplies of ships out of jita will still be more efficiently trasported in packaged form. From everything I've read in this thread (and in particular, your perspective), it certainly sounds like this ship was designed first and foremost with null-sec players in-mind as opposed to say transport for high-sec incursion runners. Which is fine, I just wish new ships like these wouldn't come with misleading statements. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Dave Stark 7141	Posted - 2014.11.11 16:26:05 - [540] - Quote Arronicus wrote: It's as if Baltec and Dave Stark don't even want these to be used. i feel i must first point out that i'm really not a goon. also, i'd rather people used their brain rather than ccp just giving it a high number of ehp because apparently thinking is hard?



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