Go and look at what M0o got up to a decade ago.

Then go look up what gankers were using as gank ships 5 years ago.

You will find there has been a huge change over time.

Incursion ships die too. Freighters die. Sure titans die - but extremely rarely, and almost always due to gross stupidity. With triage carrier support, they virtually NEVER die. And that's fine. The game doesn't require every ship to be at significant risk of dying whenever it flies. So if Goonswarm titans can mosey around Deklein and NEVER die...that's fine for the game. Same thing if Bowheads would be able to mosey around highsec and NEVER die, the game would be perfectly fine. In no way does Eve require ships to constantly be at risk.

Investing a month of training time? The bulk of the training time for the Bowhead is Advanced Spaceship Command 5, a skill which has significant overlap with Freighters, Jump Freighters, and is a gateway to all capital ships. Pretending that it's some sort of burden shouldered only by the Bowhead aspirant is disingenuous.

Also, 1b is hardly a large amount of money. PLEX are a doghair from this value right now. And if you use a little bit of brainpower to limit your exposure, you can safely move around the universe while fearing no gank bogey man.

As for use cases, here's some:

• Mercenaries transporting large numbers of ships-of-the-line to stage towards a new target.
• A common way for corporations and alliances to provide ships for their members is to pre-fit them and put them up on contracts. The Bowhead allows them to move the ships easily should the staging point for the corporation/alliance change.
• Consolidation of personal assets.

With a little creativity, a lot of things come out of the woodwork.

Right, but his argument was not in relation to what MOo were doing (which if memory serves was in low sec/null sec space)..

Transporting three battleships, two logi boats, a command ship, a hauler with ammo and a scout frigate for incursion running is a little over twice as fast using a bowhead than manually transporting them. (ship list taken from a poster earlier in the thread that stated that incursion runners own these ships. Time was calculated over having to move 30 jumps of an average of 50au)

If people fit several billion to their ships like they say then no, they are at more risk because the battleship they are flying is much easier to gank than a bowhead.

No, yours argument is.

If his argument wasn't in relation to hi sec ganking then what relevance would it have in a discussion talking about the HP level of a ship in relation to hi sec ganking?

it is easier to gank once you know which one of the 200 machs passing through is the shiny one. as for the 'accessory' ships, their chance of being ganked is essentially 0 unless they are buried in a giant cargo-coffin with a 'kick me' sign on the rear.

There arn;t 200 mack running through a system at any one point. Each and every pirate battleship will be scanned and if gank worthy, blown up in the next system. You are lying to yourself if you think its safer.

I am responding to YOUR argument that ganking hasn't gone down due to changes.

i prefer to always be honest, with myself at least. as for being ganked, you should ask people who actually run incursions. so far, they seem to be quite fine despite the permanent scanning (and so are my mission alts).

So why is it that you are in a fit about a ship with near three times the tank of your battleship? If you only have a single mach and you stick it in your bowhead with a basic t2 tank with t1 rigs it will cost the gankers a lot more to gank you than they could possibly earn. With a max tanked bowhead with logi support they would require more firepower than is needed to alpha a neuted chimera. That simply does not exist in high sec.

Ok, then lets go off that basis. Relative to amount of players that existed back then compared to now, what data do you have that shows that ganking has gone down? I basically asked him the same question I'm now asking you. Again, I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I haven't seen anything to suggest that this is the case.

People seem to be continually neglecting to factor in that a ganked mach has 0% chance of dropping a mach hull in their comparisons thereby leaving only the modules as potential loot.

M0o killed thousands of ships in choke systems over the span of a few days in high sec to the point where CCP had to step in and teleported their fleet to the far corners of null sec.

M0o killed thousands of ships in choke systems over the span of a few days in high sec to the point where CCP had to step in and teleported their fleet to the far corners of null sec.

And how does that differ from events like hulkageddon?

This happened before much of what we have now. No KMs, few external sites and a smattering of info on the eve wiki.

In low sec. Undefended, and un-patrolled space. Just because a majority of lonetrek exists as a high sec region does not mean it all is. I can find no data to support your claims that this happened in hi sec and therefore unless you have something else then I fail to see how they are relevant.

So what you are saying is that you are too lazy to validate the claims you make? I only had vague inklings of memories of mOo, but I still managed to find some information on them instead of waving my hand and saying it couldn't be done.

The disconnect here is that the calls for seven digit EHP and other forms of invincibility assume a position where attempting to evade or out-think the gankers in question is never broached. In a pure PvP game such as Eve: Online, you must keep death in mind at all times. There is no safety. You are prey at all times until you choose to become a predator, and even then you're only not prey if you are at the top of your game.

M0o is the single most influential corp to have ever existed in EVE. I shouldn't have to go hunting around for you.

Oh I'm not saying that you should. I'm just saying I didn't try to pass it off as an impossible task to someone else, nor did I try to make claims that I hadn't looked into myself. I merely validated your claims as false for myself. Though I'm not sure I'd agree that they are the single most influential corp, given the likes of your alliance and founding. I'd easily put money down on goonswarm as being the most influential and I'm saying that as a former BoB member! Whether or not that thats a good thing, *shrug* don't really care either way.

You could tank concord back then.

Mach can be alpha'ed rather easily. The same cannot be said for a well tanked bowhead.

With this ship, you can't evade anything.

While you can do that with an orca by using mwd+cloak or, drop some ecm drones and get a lucky break and warp away from the tackler (if they have one only) with bowhead you can't do anything at all. Just hope and prey they do a mistake and concord arrives while you are still alive.

We lost one in Dek the other week.

You are never locking it up because of cloak + mwd...not to mention that travel fit is close to 300k ehp and basically never gets suicide ganked.

Compared with how many freighters you killed in HS?