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CCP Larrikin C C P C C P Alliance 353	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:11:17 - [1] - Quote Hi Mates, We're seeding the 4 Racial Force Auxiliary skills in February, along with skills for Light Fighter Squadrons and Support Fighter Squadrons. Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. These skillpoints can be reallocated instantly as the player desires. There'll be a dev-blog going into more details about our transition plans for Carriers, Force Auxiliaries and a bunch of other stuff, coming out later this week. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Game Designer \| Team Five-0 \| https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin

baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17304	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:17:32 - [2] - Quote Sounds fair. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2568	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:21:44 - [3] - Quote Inb4 shitstorm about having to pay for a book.
Sentient Blade Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate 1598	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:24:37 - [4] - Quote I am curious about the skill book prices in this regard. I would be hoping it would be closer to the dreadnaught skills than the carrier... otherwise that's going to suck up billions more.
Carbon Alabel The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance 6	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:26:36 - [5] - Quote Will the carrier skills be removed from all such characters with the skill books being refunded or will they remain in the character?
EdFromHumanResources ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 207	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:27:27 - [6] - Quote Can you make an exception for pilots that are...I dunno..sitting in a Mothership?

CCP Larrikin C C P C C P Alliance 356	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:27:28 - [7] - Quote Carbon Alabel wrote: Will the carrier skills be removed from all such characters with the skill books being refunded or will they remain in the character? They will remain. Game Designer \| Team Five-0 \| https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin

Dianila Artemisa Anti-Nub Incorporated Triumvirate. 23	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:27:31 - [8] - Quote Sentient Blade wrote: I am curious about the skill book prices in this regard. I would be hoping it would be closer to the dreadnaught skills than the carrier... otherwise that's going to suck up billions more. Imagine the tears! (setting it closer to carrier than to dread would make it a nice ISK sink though) EDIT: After checking my wallet, let's hope it's closer to the dread skillbook price.
Rancid Meatballs Unique Corporation 17 0	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:29:36 - [9] - Quote What happens if a pilot logs in his carrier, and there are no SP in his carrier skill?
Maria Kishunuba Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:31:35 - [10] - Quote Would the carrier still create Sleeper capital escalations? Will the FAX create sleeper escalations? And if the FAX takes over the Carriers job of making escalations, what reimbursement plans do you then have for carrier pilots without triage?
Abby Silverwind Demonic Retribution The Initiative. 14	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:32:03 - [11] - Quote EdFromHumanResources wrote: Can you make an exception for pilots that are...I dunno..sitting in a Mothership? This Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; Your rod and your staff, they comfort me. Drunk Posting Best Posting
John Selth Collapsed Out Pandemic Legion 31	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:32:23 - [12] - Quote How will this affect those characters sitting in Super Carriers.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 2346	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:35:07 - [13] - Quote EdFromHumanResources wrote: Can you make an exception for pilots that are...I dunno..sitting in a Mothership? Don't inject racial force auxiliary, then, if you're worried about being stuck in a supercarrier after the refund. No racial Force Auxiliary, no refund. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
EdFromHumanResources ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 207	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:35:27 - [14] - Quote John Selth wrote: How will this affect those characters sitting in Super Carriers. A lot of our supercap pilots are out of stuff to train and thus train things that may be useful should the supercap pop. FAX would be ideal for something to have trained as a backup.
Ripard Teg Snuff Box Snuffed Out 1237	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:36:00 - [15] - Quote Dianila Artemisa wrote: Sentient Blade wrote: I am curious about the skill book prices in this regard. I would be hoping it would be closer to the dreadnaught skills than the carrier... otherwise that's going to suck up billions more. Imagine the tears! (setting it closer to carrier than to dread would make it a nice ISK sink though) EDIT: After checking my wallet, let's hope it's closer to the dread skillbook price. Yup. I have two characters that can fly six triage carriers between them. That's 3B ISK to essentially keep the skill that I already have today. aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.

CCP Larrikin C C P C C P Alliance 357	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:38:53 - [16] - Quote EdFromHumanResources wrote: Can you make an exception for pilots that are...I dunno..sitting in a Mothership? If you don't inject the racial force auxiliary skill then your skillpoints will remain in the racial carrier skill. Rancid Meatballs wrote: What happens if a pilot logs in his carrier, and there are no SP in his carrier skill? You can still warp / jump / dock / etc. However you won't have any bonuses from your skill, and you can't undock until you reallocate the skillpoints into the carrier skill. Game Designer \| Team Five-0 \| https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin

John Selth Collapsed Out Pandemic Legion 31	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:40:40 - [17] - Quote EdFromHumanResources wrote: John Selth wrote: How will this affect those characters sitting in Super Carriers. A lot of our supercap pilots are out of stuff to train and thus train things that may be useful should the supercap pop. FAX would be ideal for something to have trained as a backup. I'm aware of that, I myself have a maxed out super pilot. What I am asking is, when they relocate the carrier skills to unallocated SP, what happens to the pilots sitting in ships requiring that skill (supers for instance) when they log in to change it?
Mia Sedgwick Lazerhawks 4	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:41:05 - [18] - Quote Maybe reduce the skill to 1 opposed to 0 to avoid issues/not penalize super pilots (as soon they'll be able to dock and might want to use a FAX occasionally).
Soldarius O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore 1459	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:41:21 - [19] - Quote If you're sitting in a mothership, you can't dock to inject the FAX skill (unless you get out of your space-coffin). So no worries. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
The Cue Sky Fighters 32	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:41:23 - [20] - Quote This is awesome, that is all. Thanks CCP.
Basil Vulpine Blueprint Haus Blades of Grass 66	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:42:02 - [21] - Quote But what about supercarrier pilots who haven't managed to sell the hull yet and would like most of their carrier SP back? If your pilot is in a super you could always: a) Not inject the Force Aux. skillbook until after the change is made b) Contract any carrier hulls to alts c) Log the super in and put the SP back in to the carrier skill d) Swap a holding character in to pilot the super For the ultra paranoid you could do a combination of the above.
John Selth Collapsed Out Pandemic Legion 31	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:42:59 - [22] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: EdFromHumanResources wrote: Can you make an exception for pilots that are...I dunno..sitting in a Mothership? If you don't inject the racial force auxiliary skill then your skillpoints will remain in the racial carrier skill. Rancid Meatballs wrote: What happens if a pilot logs in his carrier, and there are no SP in his carrier skill? You can still warp / jump / dock / etc. However you won't have any bonuses from your skill, and you can't undock until you reallocate the skillpoints into the carrier skill. Good to know, thanks
jenks125 Ever Flow Northern Coalition. 0	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:43:56 - [23] - Quote Why are you making it that complicated? Refund the skill without have the other skills trained, Some of us enjoy playing the game, not figure out the complexities of CCP's logic every time you guys change something.
EdFromHumanResources ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 207	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:44:34 - [24] - Quote Soldarius wrote: If you're sitting in a mothership, you can't dock to inject the FAX skill (unless you get out of your space-coffin). So no worries. Since when do you need to be docked to inject skills?
Buhhdust Princess Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 9402	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:45:01 - [25] - Quote So, do we get BOTH fighter skills if we have Fighters 5 trained? because we are all losing out there. Also, do FAX have a ship maintenance bay and fleet hangar as per the carrier does currently?
Tineoidea Asanari Black Aces I N F A M O U S 132	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:46:35 - [26] - Quote jenks125 wrote: If the skill is obsolete, refund it period. That goes for all the upcoming changes. Why do you want to refund the skill in your super?
jenks125 Ever Flow Northern Coalition. 0	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:49:27 - [27] - Quote Tineoidea Asanari wrote: jenks125 wrote: If the skill is obsolete, refund it period. That goes for all the upcoming changes. Why do you want to refund the skill in your super? I misread it at first and tried to ninja edit cause I'm slow. Still doesn't change the fact that this is way to complicated.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 2346	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:49:29 - [28] - Quote Buhhdust Princess wrote: So, do we get BOTH fighter skills if we have Fighters 5 trained? because we are all losing out there. Also, do FAX have a ship maintenance bay and fleet hangar as per the carrier does currently? I'm guessing current the Fighter skill will change to Heavy Support fighters or whatever they're called. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Buhhdust Princess Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 9402	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:50:35 - [29] - Quote Querns wrote: Buhhdust Princess wrote: So, do we get BOTH fighter skills if we have Fighters 5 trained? because we are all losing out there. Also, do FAX have a ship maintenance bay and fleet hangar as per the carrier does currently? I'm guessing current the Fighter skill will change to Heavy Support fighters or whatever they're called. I think i'd rather get skillpoints to either put in both skills, or something else :)
Judy Mikakka BURN EDEN Northern Coalition. 6	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:51:01 - [30] - Quote jenks125 wrote: Tineoidea Asanari wrote: jenks125 wrote: If the skill is obsolete, refund it period. That goes for all the upcoming changes. Why do you want to refund the skill in your super? I misread it at first and tried to ninja edit cause I'm slow. Still doesn't change the fact that this is way to complicated. How is it complicated? If you want to fly FAX machines (Because you're a triage pilot) Inject the skill and wait for the SP to be refunded. If you want to use the new combat carriers, do nothing? Literally 0 complications about it.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 2346	Posted - 2016.02.08 16:53:15 - [31] - Quote Buhhdust Princess wrote: Querns wrote: Buhhdust Princess wrote: So, do we get BOTH fighter skills if we have Fighters 5 trained? because we are all losing out there. Also, do FAX have a ship maintenance bay and fleet hangar as per the carrier does currently? I'm guessing current the Fighter skill will change to Heavy Support fighters or whatever they're called. I think i'd rather get skillpoints to either put in both skills, or something else :) I doubt it'll happen. It's pretty clear that they aren't going to give out "free" SP, or allow you to do all the things that racial carrier does today at once via refund mechanics -- fighters are probably gonna be the same way. It's tough love. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Targanoth Soul Takers 5	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:14:10 - [32] - Quote So i have two unsubbed max skilled triage toons. To get my SP back i need to pay to resub them both just to train Force Auxiliary to 1? No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of an Enemy
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1707	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:14:34 - [33] - Quote Would have been a lot simpler to just convert 'tactical logistics recon' to the new FAX skill. And base the performance of triage on that.
Anthar Thebess 1423	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:16:41 - [34] - Quote Why cannot i pull injected skill books ? I have carrier A, C , only to use its as offensive carrier. I have carrier B, D only to use its as triage. Multiply this by 5, as i have so many capital characters you get need to buy 10 fax skill books , and my characters will be left with 10 carrier skills at lvl 0. You are telling me to invest around 5 billion to use ships in the same way as i am doing now. Why i cannot select across my characters : - Carrier A to Fax - Carrier B to Combat Carrier - Carrier C to Fax - Carrier D to Combat Carrier Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Sub Starasque Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:17:12 - [35] - Quote So now I have to train a new 14x skill to do what I could do before? That stings. I feel burned.
Kallor Eidermann Tes'thesula Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 0	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:22:07 - [36] - Quote I would like to second what Sub Starasque said above. This carrier has all racial carriers at 5. I can currently fly DPS OR Triage carriers of all races. And now I have to sink 100 days of training into being able to continue to do so, without getting anything new from it.
Scotsman Howard The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 7	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:24:00 - [37] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We're seeding the 4 Racial Force Auxiliary skills in February, along with skills for Light Fighter Squadrons and Support Fighter Squadrons. Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. These skillpoints can be reallocated instantly as the player desires. If you start training the Force Auxiliary skill after the patch tomorrow, you can reallocate your refunded skillpoints right back into your racial carrier skill so you can fly both ships. Or spend them on anything you like! There'll be a dev-blog going into more details about our transition plans for Carriers, Force Auxiliaries and a bunch of other stuff, coming out later this week. Cheers, CCP Larrikin We need to know about the fighter skills as well. What if we already have fighters trained to 5? How will this work if we have fighter-bombers? Yes I agree that carriers and FAX are the main focus here, but we also need information regarding how the fighter skills will be handled.
Akrasjel Lanate Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate 1870	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:25:19 - [38] - Quote Looks good Akrasjel Lanate Founder and CEO of Naquatech Conglomerate Executor of Naquatech Syndicate Citizen of Solitude
Dunk Dinkle Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 114	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:31:00 - [39] - Quote Paraphrased: "Start training now, but with no idea of which Force Aux might fit your playstyle. And thanks for your half a billion a pop into the ISK sink."
Angelique Duchemin GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 972	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:31:19 - [40] - Quote Sub Starasque wrote: So now I have to train a new 14x skill to do what I could do before? That stings. I feel burned. To be fair. What Carriers will be used for after Force Auxiliary ships are added will not be anything like the uses they had before. Remote rep drone blob Carriers are going away entirely. Carriers are being split into Triage and a new role. So you never had the option to use your Carrier like you could before. Even if they gave you both skills at max level you would still be losing the old Carrier purposes. The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2909	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:38:36 - [41] - Quote Seconding questions on the fighter skills. We have existing fighters/fighter bombers, what is happening in regards to those?
gr33nCO Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 0	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:42:32 - [42] - Quote Will you be refunding the 500 million isk per racial carrier skill injected when citadel expansion goes live and you refund racial carriers skill points. You know, to make up for the extra 500 million isk per force aux skill book you are making us buy.
Esnaelc Sin'led The Unchained Club 50	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:45:18 - [43] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. That sentence is not quite clear in my opinion. Is that "Any Character with Tactical Reconfiguration SKILL, Carrier SKILL and FAX SKILL" ? Or do you mean "Any Character with Tactical Reconfiguration SKILL, a Carrier (the ship) and Force Auxiliary SKILL" ? In other word, are you takling about the SKILL or the SHIP when you say "Carrier" ? The "a" before "Carrier" is disturbing.
Sub Starasque Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:50:48 - [44] - Quote Angelique Duchemin wrote: Sub Starasque wrote: So now I have to train a new 14x skill to do what I could do before? That stings. I feel burned. To be fair. What Carriers will be used for after Force Auxiliary ships are added will not be anything like the uses they had before. Remote rep drone blob Carriers are going away entirely. Carriers are being split into Triage and a new role. So you never had the option to use your Carrier like you could before. Even if they gave you both skills at max level you would still be losing the old Carrier purposes. I'm not talking about remote rep blobs. Those are dumb and need to die. What I am saying is that I either get to keep carrier V and have a useless tactical logistics reconfiguration skill, or I can can choose to put that into the fax skill and have useless fighters V. Those are pretty long trains and to just throw them out the window feels like I'm getting a giant middle finger to the face. I spent entire months of sub time just on those individual skills.
LYFE SUCKS Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 0	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:54:40 - [45] - Quote what if you trained 2 carriers to V but didnt train tactical logi reconfig yet, but still want the sp refunded as you were training for triage???
ArmyOfMe BANISHED. The WeHurt Initiative 580	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:56:52 - [46] - Quote Kallor Eidermann Tes'thesula wrote: Sub Starasque wrote: So now I have to train a new 14x skill to do what I could do before? That stings. I feel burned. I would like to second what Sub Starasque said above. This character has all racial carriers at 5. I can currently fly DPS OR Triage carriers of all races. And now I have to sink 100 days of training into being able to continue to do so, without getting anything new from it. ****, im just glad i finally get something new to train QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
Axel Stenmark Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 2	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:57:40 - [47] - Quote Today, you can fly a fighter carrier and a triage carrier. Tomorrow you have to decide if you want to fly a fighter carrier and/or a force auxiliary without knowing how either of them will work in the citadel expansion. If you think you want to use a "triage" carrier, you need to buy a 500 million ISK skill book and spend the next two months training an X14 skill, just to retain your current ability in triage. You can also use skill injectors, which will add cost, if you wish to skip the two months of training. 500 million skill book and two PLEX and two months time (or additional ISK on injectors) to keep an ability you already have. Now mulitply that by how many characters can currently fly triage and you see how this is a giant ISK sink. Expect even more pressure on PLEX prices than just skill injectors.
Basil Vulpine Blueprint Haus Blades of Grass 66	Posted - 2016.02.08 17:59:09 - [48] - Quote Sub Starasque wrote: What I am saying is that I either get to keep carrier V and have a useless tactical logistics reconfiguration skill, or I can can choose to put that into the fax skill and have useless fighters V. Those are pretty long trains and to just throw them out the window feels like I'm getting a giant middle finger to the face. I spent entire months of sub time just on those individual skills. Have you had a chance to use those skills since training them? Yes - Congratulations, you've already gained a benefit from the time you spent. No - The training was wasted already and will continue to be wasted. That said I was betting on the new skillbook being a lower multiplier and cost as it is closer to a Dread in what it provides. For all I know it might still end up that way! May as well try and be optimistic. Carrier skill is still the gateway to supers I assume which is why it sits between dread and titan.
Panther X High Flyers Northern Coalition. 103	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:01:04 - [49] - Quote So as i am sitting in hyperspace blissfully sleeping in my Master Race Wyvern, how the heck do i get this or these new books in if i read correctly this short time span of tomorrows down time? I have 5 other carrier pilots that qualify for Fax so of one of them sits in my space coffin while i jump up to hisec...does one of my pilots miss out because of jump clone timers? Please tell me there is an easier way...or that im reading into this wrong. Regards and space kisses My super smells of rich Corinthian Leather
Fenrir Vice Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 0	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:04:51 - [50] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We're seeding the 4 Racial Force Auxiliary skills in February, along with skills for Light Fighter Squadrons and Support Fighter Squadrons. Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. These skillpoints can be reallocated instantly as the player desires. If you start training the Force Auxiliary skill after the patch tomorrow, you can reallocate your refunded skillpoints right back into your racial carrier skill so you can fly both ships. Or spend them on anything you like! There'll be a dev-blog going into more details about our transition plans for Carriers, Force Auxiliaries and a bunch of other stuff, coming out later this week. Cheers, CCP Larrikin What about those of us who tactical logistics reconfiguration to V, but have no desire to use the Force Auxiliaries, is there any way I can get that refunded so I can reallocate into the new fighter skills?
h4kun4 Heeresversuchsanstalt The Bastion 64	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:09:46 - [51] - Quote what about people who have trained multiple carriers? will they get all of them ejected for allocation or only the one where our fax is? and if yes what about people who can now fly a minmatar carrier and want to go for the caldari FAX?
Esnaelc Sin'led The Unchained Club 50	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:16:27 - [52] - Quote h4kun4 wrote: what about people who have trained multiple carriers? will they get all of them ejected for allocation or only the one where our fax is? and if yes what about people who can now fly a minmatar carrier and want to go for the caldari FAX? Just inject what ever FAX skill race, you'll be refund, and you'll be able to realocate them in any FAX skill race you wish.
Current Habit Rusty Pricks 55	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:19:24 - [53] - Quote It's like CCP doesn't want me to play past the capital expansion. It's always been the case that when new skills replace existing ones the people with the existing skills wouldn't be ****** but I guess that changed too.
Saeletra Wuxing Inc. 0	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:21:54 - [54] - Quote Current Habit wrote: It's like CCP doesn't want me to play past the capital expansion. Certainly feels that way, yeah.
Anthar Thebess 1423	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:22:58 - [55] - Quote Out of curiosity. If i choose not to inject any Fax book , will my : - Triage - Capital Remote Armor Repair - Capital Remote Shield Booster - Capital Remote Energy Transfer - Capital Remote Hull Repair - Logistic Cruiser V ( this is prerequisite for triage) Will be moved to unallocated skill pool? Those skill will be only viable for FAX. On the other side. If i not to choose to have any skills connected to combat carriers, will all skill pool from the drone tree will be refunded? If i skilled character only to use triage carriers i don't need fighters any more. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Paddy Finn Greater Order Of Destruction Exodus. 7	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:28:19 - [56] - Quote Don't try and do mental gymnastics about how FAX and carriers roles are significantly different from the combined roles the carrier has now. If you can fly it before a patch you should be able to fly it after a patch, this is an unacceptable solution to the problem.
Dorijan Hoover Inc. Pandemic Legion 64	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:29:11 - [57] - Quote Paddy Finn wrote: Don't try and do mental gymnastics about how FAX and carriers roles are significantly different from the combined roles the carrier has now. If you can fly it before a patch you should be able to fly it after a patch, this is an unacceptable solution to the problem. I mean how else are they going to push Skill Injectors?
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2961	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:31:32 - [58] - Quote Paddy Finn wrote: Don't try and do mental gymnastics about how FAX and carriers roles are significantly different from the combined roles the carrier has now. If you can fly it before a patch you should be able to fly it after a patch, this is an unacceptable solution to the problem. To be fair to CCP, you can still fly your carrier after the patch. And the remote skills will still work, just not as effectively. The drone skills will still work, just not on a carrier but you can fly other ships which use drones as well. They are changing the role of the carrier, but that's happened before to other ships, I mean, take a look at Marauders for a similarly dramatic change in use. So it doesn't quite apply as you are trying to use it, though I wouldn't complain if CCP gave everyone both skills either. Neutral myself as to which solution gets used.
LYFE SUCKS Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 0	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:36:11 - [59] - Quote LYFE SUCKS wrote: what if you trained 2 carriers to V but didnt train tactical logi reconfig yet, but still want the sp refunded as you were training for triage??? dont forget about my question pls lol
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2961	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:38:28 - [60] - Quote LYFE SUCKS wrote: LYFE SUCKS wrote: what if you trained 2 carriers to V but didnt train tactical logi reconfig yet, but still want the sp refunded as you were training for triage??? dont forget about my question pls lol Inject and train tactical logi to 1? Along with the FAX skills. The CCP post doesn't say you have to have them to a particular level to get the unallocated SP. Plenty of time to do that before Citadel hits, you have months to sort this in.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H. 473	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:40:41 - [61] - Quote Sub Starasque wrote: ... What I am saying is that I either get to keep carrier V and have a useless tactical logistics reconfiguration skill, or I can can choose to put that into the fax skill and have useless fighters V. Those are pretty long trains and to just throw them out the window feels like I'm getting a giant middle finger to the face. I spent entire months of sub time just on those individual skills. Yep, pretty much this. Guess CCP are counting on us to help drive the initial demand for Skill Extractors
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2571	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:41:41 - [62] - Quote Paddy Finn wrote: Don't try and do mental gymnastics about how FAX and carriers roles are significantly different from the combined roles the carrier has now. If you can fly it before a patch you should be able to fly it after a patch, this is an unacceptable solution to the problem. You can fly a carrier and will be able to fly a carrier or a FAX. Anything you could fly will still be available unless you choose not to.
LYFE SUCKS Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 0	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:41:53 - [63] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: LYFE SUCKS wrote: LYFE SUCKS wrote: what if you trained 2 carriers to V but didnt train tactical logi reconfig yet, but still want the sp refunded as you were training for triage??? dont forget about my question pls lol Inject and train tactical logi to 1? Along with the FAX skills. The CCP post doesn't say you have to have them to a particular level to get the unallocated SP. Plenty of time to do that before Citadel hits, you have months to sort this in. ah thx thought you got to have it by when they seed the skillbooks
Current Habit Rusty Pricks 56	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:43:07 - [64] - Quote So the FAX and the post-change carriers are basically half the ships they're currently (post change carrier/FAX can only deal daamage/repair - current carrier can do both). It would be reasonable to reduce the price for carriers and FAXes to 250m instead of 500m (current carrier skill book price) and give everyone who has a (racial) carrier book injected the new FAX skillbook.
Alexander Tekitsu State War Academy Caldari State 8	Posted - 2016.02.08 18:49:16 - [65] - Quote Why not keep it simple. If you have tactical reconfig, refund SP in each carrier, grant that racial FAX @ lvl 0. I'm not as hard up as some others that have 4 carriers trained, but even at 2, that is a Bill in books that was spent on something that may not be desired. I'm also curious at which point FAX information will be released so we can figure out which race we should prioritize, and at what point these can start being built, if the big plan is to shut off Carriers triage the same day as BPOs are launched, you have just killed Capital logistics for a week minimum. ( and saturated the market with carriers with useless CCC rigs. )
Capqu Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 1191	Posted - 2016.02.08 19:21:28 - [66] - Quote which one do i need to use my links on my carrier? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2144	Posted - 2016.02.08 19:31:01 - [67] - Quote Will the isk for the new skill books be refunded? The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Sakido Cain Duragon Pioneer Group Goonswarm Federation 4	Posted - 2016.02.08 19:31:12 - [68] - Quote OK, we will be refunded the racial carrier skill points, so if we decide we hate the new carrier changes we aren't stuck in it... cool. What about the Triage skill? If we decide we don't wanna go back into either of these ships because we don't like them, should we not also be able to reallocate the skill points that can only be used with this ship?
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 206	Posted - 2016.02.08 19:43:25 - [69] - Quote I find this fare.
Dunk Dinkle Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 117	Posted - 2016.02.08 19:44:07 - [70] - Quote Tappits wrote: I find this fare. You are right, it is not fair.
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 206	Posted - 2016.02.08 19:45:34 - [71] - Quote Dunk Dinkle wrote: Tappits wrote: I find this fare. You are right, it is not fair. M8 no mad
Asher Amazingness State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.02.08 19:48:44 - [72] - Quote Thanks CCP I'm really looking forward to spending 4b on seeded skillbooks for my 2 perfect triage pilots so they can fly the same **** they can fly already! This is a great change good for the game and will result in mass resubs no doubt.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1710	Posted - 2016.02.08 19:57:29 - [73] - Quote Sakido Cain wrote: OK, we will be refunded the racial carrier skill points, so if we decide we hate the new carrier changes we aren't stuck in it... cool. What about the Triage skill? If we decide we don't wanna go back into either of these ships because we don't like them, should we not also be able to reallocate the skill points that can only be used with this ship? Skills that need refunding. Racial Carriers Fighters Fighter Bombers Capital Energy Transfers Capital Remove Armor Repair Capital Remote Shield Repair Capital Remote Energy Transfer Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration TBH, with such a shake up of capitals, id also suggest that; Advances Spaceship Command Capital Ships Racial Dreadnoughts Capital Armor Repair Capital Shield Repair Capital Weapon Systems (multiple) Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration ...should be refunded too. Allow people to make the choice where they want to land in the new meta. Its lame enough that you are taking a role that many of us can currently perform and making us train another 40 days at the cost of 500m. Without also binding us on decisions we made on an out of date meta.
Anthar Thebess 1423	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:00:04 - [74] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Sakido Cain wrote: OK, we will be refunded the racial carrier skill points, so if we decide we hate the new carrier changes we aren't stuck in it... cool. What about the Triage skill? If we decide we don't wanna go back into either of these ships because we don't like them, should we not also be able to reallocate the skill points that can only be used with this ship? Skills that need refunding. Racial Carriers Capital Energy Transfers Capital Remove Armor Repair Capital Remote Shield Repair Capital Remote Energy Transfer Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration TBH, with such a shake up of capitals, id also suggest that; Advances Spaceship Command Capital Ships Racial Dreadnoughts Capital Armor Repair Capital Shield Repair Capital Weapon Systems (multiple) Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration ...should be refunded too. Allow people to make the choice where they want to land in the new meta. Its lame enough that you are taking a role that many of us can currently perform and making us train another 40 days at the cost of 500m. Without also binding us on decisions we made on an out of date meta. You are missing logistic cruisers , and cruiser class remote assistance modules. They are prerequisite for the capital versions. People trained those to use them on super alts, and now they will be worthless to them. Don't forget about drone skills, if you choose fax, you don't need most of the drone skills any more. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1710	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:01:44 - [75] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: You are missing logistic cruisers , and cruiser class remote assistance modules. They are prerequisite for the capital versions. People trained those to use them on super alts, and now they will be worthless to them. Don't forget about drone skills, if you choose fax, you don't need most of the drone skills any more. That is the problem with the route they have chosen, i didnt even consider such specialized characters. I was assuming a char that would be used as a main, rather than pure triage/supercap alts.
Dunk Dinkle Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 118	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:03:11 - [76] - Quote Tappits wrote: Dunk Dinkle wrote: Tappits wrote: I find this fare. You are right, it is not fair. M8 no mad I get 24 hours to be salty with no penalty. After that, feel free to nomad, HTFU, and #nopoors if I complain further. ;)
Tiberian Deci Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 143	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:04:59 - [77] - Quote Would it be too much to ask to get a remap as well. Because of the current attribute system (which is ass, but that's a separate issue) skill plans pretty much need to be mapped and planned out years in advance. My carrier pilot won't get another remap until August, and she is currently on an Int/Per remap because that's just how my plan worked out, so training the force auxiliary skills or the carrier skills would be at ~1890 SP/hour instead of the 2610 SP/hour that my remapped skills train at. While we're at it, can you consider splitting the carrier/ force auxiliary skills like the battlecruiser skills and giving us the force auxiliary at our current racial carrier skill level? Because if the philosophy behind new skill introduction is "if you were able to do it before then you will be able to do it after" then you guys should be giving us the force auxiliary skills at whatever we currently have the racial carrier trained to. I have 15 million SP in drones on my carrier pilot because carriers needed to be able to use all drones. Now I have to train some new drone skills and all that 15, SP will be useless. I have all the applicable triage skills maxed out because that extra 5% capacitor saved per cycle can be huge for triage pilots. I trained Amarr and Caldari Carriers because those were the triage platforms. Now all of a sudden my drone skills won't be useful for my carrier and my triage skills will require me to train a new ship entirely if I want to triage? It's kinda a bullshit situation to be in, so if you aren't going to give us the SP (because that would actually make sense) then at least give us a few remaps so we can make the best of a **** situation. TL;DR: We deserve the force auxiliary skills at our racial carrier skill levels, not refunded SP where we have to choose between the two. Since CCP probably won't do that, at least give us 3 remaps (1 for the new drone skills, 1 for the new auxiliary skills, and 1 to put us back on what we were currently training) so we can make the best of this **** situation.
Celeste Benal Heavy Metal Incorporated 46	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:07:17 - [78] - Quote If you aren't going to use those fighter skills anymore, grab some extractors and pull those SP for sale to recoup your FAX skillbook cost.
Capitol One Snuff Box Snuffed Out 190	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:08:43 - [79] - Quote Very angry and disappointed with this. Used to be CCP's stance was "if you can fly it now, you can always fly it". Now I'll no longer be able to fly Triage and Combat carriers for multiple carrier types over multiple characters. So I'll have to spend billions of isk and months of training just so I can continue flying the ships I'm flying now. It's RIDICULOUS!
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1711	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:09:57 - [80] - Quote Celeste Benal wrote: If you aren't going to use those fighter skills anymore, grab some extractors and pull those SP for sale to recoup your FAX skillbook cost. OH THATS A GOOD IDEA, I WONDER IF CCP THOUGHT OF THAT?!?!?! How much real life cash does a skill extractor cost again?
Equinox Daedalus The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance 12	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:10:43 - [81] - Quote When are you announcing the new carrier bonus's. This is pretty much the more important of anything else. If i don't want to spend money on skill books that i don't need, i need to know WHAT are the new bonuses for that carriers and what is going to used for in correlation with the rest of the capital/drone skills as well. I wish you would at least let us know what you have planned for the carrier role/bonus's so we can plan properly.
Memphis Baas 1081	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:14:35 - [82] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. Wait a second, you have NOT fully specified what will be done for EACH choice that we have: to fly carrier, or to fly faux. To continue to fly carriers: - Will carriers use Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration? Triage modules? - Fighters skill? - Capital Remote Armor, Shield, Energy Transfer? It sounds like you want to switch the triage and remote repair modules to apply to fauxes, and so you are probably planning on requiring another skill and module for carrier siege mode. NOT triage. It's ok if the plans for carriers haven't been finalized yet, as long as you confirm that people who refuse the Force Auxiliary skill, and thus keep their Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration and associated skills, will have these skills switched over to whatever the carriers will use once THAT change goes through. So please clarify: - what skills will be required to fly carriers - what skills will be switched to the carrier versions, specifically if triage still applies - what skills will be required to fly force auxiliaries - and you've already mentioned that fauxes will use the triage skill.
Anthar Thebess 1424	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:14:44 - [83] - Quote Celeste Benal wrote: If you aren't going to use those fighter skills anymore, grab some extractors and pull those SP for sale to recoup your FAX skillbook cost. Why? I need to pay for every thing. CCP for very long time uphold rule : If you can fly it now ... You will find multiple posts from CCP employees stating this, you will find this in dev blogs. Now CCP changed this while changing at the same time important, time consuming and expensive line of ships. Problem is that you will be no longer capable of doing the same stuff like before after this changes. In some cases this is very big change. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
chris elliot The Red Island Foundation Shadow Cartel 425	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:15:23 - [84] - Quote How are we supposed to know which fax book to buy and inject when you haven't released the stats on the fax machines themselves... You guys have been half-arsing this stuff.
Ncc 1709 Fusion Enterprises Ltd Phoenix Company Alliance 244	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:24:19 - [85] - Quote Soldarius wrote: If you're sitting in a mothership, you can't dock to inject the FAX skill (unless you get out of your space-coffin). So no worries. dont need to dock to inject skills....
Anthar Thebess 1424	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:24:33 - [86] - Quote chris elliot wrote: How are we supposed to know which fax book to buy and inject when you haven't released the stats on the fax machines themselves... You guys have been half-arsing this stuff. Fax skills is one thing, all capital modules stats is another. Add new fighter to this, and complete stats of citadels. How we can decide what ships we will be needing if we don't know statistics of the structures they are going to be killing. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Mashie Saldana TunDraGon 1637	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:29:22 - [87] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, ... Good idea :) +1 How to win EVE
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2574	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:31:36 - [88] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Celeste Benal wrote: If you aren't going to use those fighter skills anymore, grab some extractors and pull those SP for sale to recoup your FAX skillbook cost. Why? I need to pay for every thing. CCP for very long time uphold rule : If you can fly it now ... You will find multiple posts from CCP employees stating this, you will find this in dev blogs. Now CCP changed this while changing at the same time important, time consuming and expensive line of ships. Problem is that you will be no longer capable of doing the same stuff like before after this changes. In some cases this is very big change. It's you can fly what you could fly, not you can do what you could. You will still be able to fly a carrier unless you decide not to. There are 0 ship that you could fly that you will no longer be able to unless you decide to switch your SP via refund to something else and at that point, YOU made the decision to change so CCP's rule of "If you can fly it before you will after" is not broken.
Bombay Boozer Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 8	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:33:14 - [89] - Quote HeyGuys! This sounds absolutely ******** hey I spent 2bn isk on 4 carrier skills to triage, now please spend more isk to keep that ability xdxdxdxd great stuff boys, great stuff
Panther X High Flyers Northern Coalition. 103	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:36:58 - [90] - Quote So in addition to having racial carriers erased, at their cost of each race, which we dont get reimbursed for, we have to shell out the spacebux just to fly the ships we have already been flying (triage) and spent hundreds of hours training for only to have it all wiped out. Torture you? Thats a good idea... I like that. My super smells of rich Corinthian Leather
Anthar Thebess 1425	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:41:17 - [91] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: There'll be a dev-blog going into more details about our transition plans for Carriers, Force Auxiliaries and a bunch of other stuff, coming out later this week. Sorry. You ask us to make a very costly decision that will affect up to year of our gameplay without giving us nothing we can make this decision. To chose proper FAX, we need information : - exact stats of FAX - exact stats of capital modules used by FAX - exact build cost of FAX To chose proper Combat Carrier we need : - exact stats of each carrier - exact information about new fighters - exact information what modules will be used by new Combat Carriers Additionally for both: - information about citadels, and structures combat carriers will be fighting, and Fax will need to survive. - information about supers they will kill and save - information about dreds getting fleet hangars and ship bays. Capital ships did not show in eve instantly, and you want to introduce FAX in this way. To many questions, and no answers. Capital ships are end game skills, and decision what to skill is based on multiple conditions, and all of them are currently unknown. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Baki Yuku Hoover Inc. Pandemic Legion 45	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:41:56 - [92] - Quote Honstly this is a rather poor solution and can not even be called a "solution". The abilities of the orginal skill a rank 16 skill are getting cut in half and the half that got cut away gets a new skill rank 16 as well. Why? It would have been more sound to just reduce the rank of Fax skill and Carrier skill to rank 6 and everyone who already has the carrier skills at whatever level just gets half the SP back and can then decide on whatever or not to invest them into FAX.
Tiberian Deci Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 144	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:47:22 - [93] - Quote Celeste Benal wrote: If you aren't going to use those fighter skills anymore, grab some extractors and pull those SP for sale to recoup your FAX skillbook cost. I refused to spend real money on those things before, and I refuse to do so now as well. I shouldn't be forced to spend real money because the fundamental roles of carriers are changing.
Talixia Void.Tech Get Off My Lawn 5	Posted - 2016.02.08 20:52:18 - [94] - Quote So am I reading this right....I need the hulls as well? You haven't addressed those of us that have all racial carriers to 5, so now we also need to have the hulls, so what's going to happen to the hulls? are they going to magically turn into the racial force aux? or will we be stuck with hulls to sell now too? Not to mention investing ANOTHER 2b into books that should really have just been split off the existing skill (simplicity guys, why do you avoid it?)
Anthar Thebess 1427	Posted - 2016.02.08 21:11:06 - [95] - Quote Transition will be probably also on similar rules. So you will lose rigs, or maybe get them back, but if you have Large rigs on carrier you will probably get large rigs back. Perfect solution will be moving EVERY Carrier to redeeming quene, including rigs and fitting. Then allow player to choose what ship they want to back. Yes some capitals will be moved - but ignore this , give 14 day expiry timer, and after it expire hull lands back in the station. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Marcus Tedric Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation 56	Posted - 2016.02.08 21:14:44 - [96] - Quote Rowells wrote: Seconding questions on the fighter skills. We have existing fighters/fighter bombers, what is happening in regards to those? Whilst it would be nice to know - and perhaps we will find out in 3-4 days..... If you look in your Overview Settings - there is a new folder for 'Fighters' which has one entry 'Support Fighters'. So it rather looks like our Fighters -> Light Fighters & Fighter Bombers -> Heavy Fighters. Now - as to numbers, however, I'll guess 1 -> 5 or 6.
Marcus Tedric Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation 56	Posted - 2016.02.08 21:17:46 - [97] - Quote LYFE SUCKS wrote: what if you trained 2 carriers to V but didnt train tactical logi reconfig yet, but still want the sp refunded as you were training for triage??? Buy the TLR skill and train it to 1 SP...... Buy the FAx skill(s) and train to 1 SP...... On patch day spend as you wish - with 2 Carrier skills you can be an instant FAx pilot.
Mai Ling Ravencroft Duragon Pioneer Group Goonswarm Federation 35	Posted - 2016.02.08 21:45:12 - [98] - Quote http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-to-the-balancing-future/ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174410 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2145814#post2145814 It is a repeated mantra of CCP... "If you could fly it before, you will be able to do so after the change." tl;dr- Will CCP break our trst for an extra buck? or will they be true to their word and be faithful to the players? How is this any different? You are taking my Chimera, Thanatos, Archon, and Nid; splitting then in half and giving us a new hull that we already could use. I didn't train for a Thanatos and Chimera just to be a Triage pilot. Nor did I train them just to be fighter jockies. I trained carriers, rather than dreads because I wanted to be able to do logistics and to participate in the aggressive side of combat. I can fly Caldari logistic capital hull, I can fly Caldari capital drone ship, it is what I spent over 120+ days training for, it is what I should still be able to fly after the changes. Anything less than that is a breach of trust between the players and CCP, point blank. We the players have always known that any time invested in training for a type of ship would always be of use once we finished the training. Until now. CCP is violating the one sacred rule, one that we the player base has always felt safe with, and that was the simple knowledge that even if you changed the way things worked later down the road, our training time wouldn't be wasted. Taking that away from us, while tossing in a real currency item that will let us remove those unusable skills, due to the changes, is a money grab. So I ask you, which is more important, our trust in CCP: that we will always be able to fly what we had before, or a fast buck and completely destroying any faith that CCP will honor any traditions and pledges it has made with the players. Before you tell us it is a new hull, and that means we never flew it, so it doesn't count. Take a second to recall how you have been contemplating changing current carriers fitted with triage into the new hulls. Basically stating, that thes are the same thing, with a new look and name, but cut in half, no longer having both roles of logistics and combat, but rather each having only part of what it was before. Thus even if I don't move into a FAX, I still won't be flying what I could before, as it is only half the ship it was.
Kallor Eidermann Tes'thesula Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 3	Posted - 2016.02.08 21:50:36 - [99] - Quote Just let everyone with at least 1 carrier skill injected turn ALL the skill points on the entire character into unallocated points, so we can reevaluate our life choices when that patch comes out. At least when other ship skills split (and let's be honest, they are not adding a NEW ship, just splitting an existing one), there at least was some incentive to get more skill points, which people generally felt pretty happy about. Now all we get is an opportunity to waste tons of time training skills that have been added for no good reason, without knowing if it will be worth it until it is too late. Give people who have "Racial Carrier to X" an equal amount of skill points towards "Racial Force Auxiliary X". That way we don't lose anything. Make the fighters either Fighter = something and Fighter Bombers = something else, or be sensible and split them in the same way that light and medium drones were. I currently enjoy being able to fly all types of carriers, and I am not incredibly happy about the absolute ton of skill books I have to buy and training I have to do for no benefit over the current system. I'm pretty confident carriers will be really cool - but your improving your game is the reason I pay a subscription - I am not going to pay a subscription to play the game AND another one for your doing some much needed improvements.
Traiori Risk Breakers Bad Intention 236	Posted - 2016.02.08 21:52:59 - [100] - Quote 14x skill is 30-50 days to V right? So that's... 120-200 days of training CCP would like me to add to all of my carrier pilots so that they can continue to fulfil the same niche roles, along with dropping 2b per character on skillbooks. What about my unsubbed characters? Am I expected to resub all of my carrier sitting toons just to be able to have this flexibility? What are the stats of the new carriers? How are the new fighters working? Am I going to be adding on another month of training there? This is badly thought through. Dedicated multiracial triage alts are looking at 4-6 months of additional training to be able to fly the ships that they've been flying previously. Add on fighters / bombers and if the changes are anything like this set of changes then we're looking at 6-9 months of training. I'm sure that for the people that don't have dedicated triage alts, this is less of an issue. But I do fly triage, I do have dedicated triage alts, and I have dedicated delivery/sitter pilots too. I fail to see how CCP's mantra of "fly it before, fly it now" is being maintained in any form by this announcement. Especially annoying as it seems that I'm expected to pay -ú40-60 per pilot to get them back to where they are at present (ignoring ISK costs) in terms of being able to log in and immediately drop in a capital fleet of any kind in whatever role is required.
Tiberian Deci Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 147	Posted - 2016.02.08 22:02:33 - [101] - Quote Kallor Eidermann Tes'thesula wrote: Give people who have "Racial Carrier to X" an equal amount of skill points towards "Racial Force Auxiliary X". CCPls
KuroVolt The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance 2261	Posted - 2016.02.08 22:05:09 - [102] - Quote Would be nice if we could get some more info about what new bonusses the 4 carriers will actually have now, and what bonusses the FAX's will have. You are kinda asking us to choose blindly here, CCP. BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
Minty Aroma Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 65	Posted - 2016.02.08 22:12:41 - [103] - Quote I would like to know what is happening with the fighter skills come the citadel patch - is fighters just going to turn to heavy fighters, fighter bombers having its SP returned and the light + support fighters to whatever you have managed to train them to beforehand?
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17437	Posted - 2016.02.08 22:14:42 - [104] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We're seeding the 4 Racial Force Auxiliary skills in February, along with skills for Light Fighter Squadrons and Support Fighter Squadrons. Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. These skillpoints can be reallocated instantly as the player desires. If you start training the Force Auxiliary skill after the patch tomorrow, you can reallocate your refunded skillpoints right back into your racial carrier skill so you can fly both ships. Or spend them on anything you like! There'll be a dev-blog going into more details about our transition plans for Carriers, Force Auxiliaries and a bunch of other stuff, coming out later this week. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Yeah thanks a bunch for giving me a 7 month train to get back to where I am now. Hey listen, I've decided to split the skill for receiving my subscription money going forward. You can reallocate half the amount it cost to subscribe my two accounts to maintain one of them. Let me know which. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Bellona Rikan Minion Revolution SpaceMonkey's Alliance 9	Posted - 2016.02.08 22:21:05 - [105] - Quote Minty Aroma wrote: I would like to know what is happening with the fighter skills come the citadel patch - is fighters just going to turn to heavy fighters, fighter bombers having its SP returned and the light + support fighters to whatever you have managed to train them to beforehand? This, please!
commander aze 74	Posted - 2016.02.08 22:43:14 - [106] - Quote For those with Fighters and fighter bombers trained what does this mean for us? do we gain levels transferred to these new skills? Commander Aze For CSM XI Support the Community #Broadcast4Reps
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H. 474	Posted - 2016.02.08 22:51:07 - [107] - Quote commander aze wrote: For those with Fighters and fighter bombers trained what does this mean for us? do we gain levels transferred to these new skills? Yeah, wondering if I should start training Fighter Bombers even though I don't have a use for them, to make sure I wont have to start training for Fighters from scratch, again.
Rosal Milag Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 30	Posted - 2016.02.08 22:52:14 - [108] - Quote Malcanis wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We're seeding the 4 Racial Force Auxiliary skills in February, along with skills for Light Fighter Squadrons and Support Fighter Squadrons. Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. These skillpoints can be reallocated instantly as the player desires. If you start training the Force Auxiliary skill after the patch tomorrow, you can reallocate your refunded skillpoints right back into your racial carrier skill so you can fly both ships. Or spend them on anything you like! There'll be a dev-blog going into more details about our transition plans for Carriers, Force Auxiliaries and a bunch of other stuff, coming out later this week. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Yeah thanks a bunch for giving me a 7 month train to get back to where I am now. Hey listen, I've decided to split the skill for receiving my subscription money going forward. You can reallocate half the amount it cost to subscribe my two accounts to maintain one of them. Let me know which. And CCP should give 7 months of training to all carrier pilots for free? "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" Ironic that you can't understand that CCP is not going to drop 12 million skill points on anyone, regardless of how long you've played, how many subscriptions you have.
Lucas Quaan Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 115	Posted - 2016.02.08 22:57:16 - [109] - Quote Decent compromise, but you should probably tell us what you plan with the skill path for fighters too.
Tiberian Deci Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 148	Posted - 2016.02.08 22:57:44 - [110] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: It's you can fly what you could fly, not you can do what you could. You will still be able to fly a carrier unless you decide not to. There are 0 ship that you could fly that you will no longer be able to unless you decide to switch your SP via refund to something else and at that point, YOU made the decision to change so CCP's rule of "If you can fly it before you will after" is not broken. I feel like you haven't yet made the distinction between being able to fly* something and being able to fly something. Sure, anyone with Gallente Battleship I can fly a Megathron, but without a core of engineering, armor, and gunnery skills they can't really fly it. Same thing for carriers. I have spent two years training a toon from scratch who can do almost everything perfectly in a carrier. Now in order to fulfill the same roles I am almost perfect at I need to drop 2b isk on skillbooks and add another 8+ months of training time to my skill queue, oh, and I can't do it whenever I want because of the shitass attribute system? That's a raw deal and anyone can see it, except you I guess.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17439	Posted - 2016.02.08 22:58:13 - [111] - Quote Rosal Milag wrote: Malcanis wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We're seeding the 4 Racial Force Auxiliary skills in February, along with skills for Light Fighter Squadrons and Support Fighter Squadrons. Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. These skillpoints can be reallocated instantly as the player desires. If you start training the Force Auxiliary skill after the patch tomorrow, you can reallocate your refunded skillpoints right back into your racial carrier skill so you can fly both ships. Or spend them on anything you like! There'll be a dev-blog going into more details about our transition plans for Carriers, Force Auxiliaries and a bunch of other stuff, coming out later this week. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Yeah thanks a bunch for giving me a 7 month train to get back to where I am now. Hey listen, I've decided to split the skill for receiving my subscription money going forward. You can reallocate half the amount it cost to subscribe my two accounts to maintain one of them. Let me know which. And CCP should give 7 months of training to all carrier pilots for free? "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" Ironic that you can't understand that CCP is not going to drop 12 million skill points on anyone, regardless of how long you've played, how many subscriptions you have. There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Tawaif Ministry of War Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2016.02.08 23:01:14 - [112] - Quote Since I now have to do more training just to be able to do stuff that I already can, would you consider giving me back the sp from the unneeded 2 levels of amarr battleships that I have trained rather than making me pay for one of those new sp remover tools you're bringing in. Many thanks.
Hound Halfhand Repo Industries 24	Posted - 2016.02.08 23:01:16 - [113] - Quote How about a free remap so we can work with this mess? Come on CCP, don't be stingy.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17439	Posted - 2016.02.08 23:02:28 - [114] - Quote Of course, there wasn't the opportunity to take $70 from us to inject those 4.5m sp when that happened. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Rosal Milag Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 30	Posted - 2016.02.08 23:03:32 - [115] - Quote Malcanis wrote: There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots. Yes because adding 4.5 million sp and adding 12 million sp is an equivalent event. Oh and did they have injectors in game when the 4.5 million sp was added? Man, everyone but you totally missed them. This is the best case scenario for CCP to keep the SP of the most advanced players from inflating more while keeping total value of the game null. Admit to the truth, you want free SP for no other reason than CCP has given SP in one circumstance similar in the past. The rest of us are happy that triage pilots are not screwed up the ass with training times. Stop thinking that you deserve free SP. You don't. You don't deserve a damn thing in this game. Everyone gets the same treatment.
ApolloF117 HUN Angels and Demons Inc. Mordus Angels 23	Posted - 2016.02.08 23:09:15 - [116] - Quote Rosal Milag wrote: Malcanis wrote: There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots. Yes because adding 4.5 million sp and adding 12 million sp is an equivalent event. Oh and did they have injectors in game when the 4.5 million sp was added? Man, everyone but you totally missed them. This is the best case scenario for CCP to keep the SP of the most advanced players from inflating more while keeping total value of the game null. Admit to the truth, you want free SP for no other reason than CCP has given SP in one circumstance similar in the past. The rest of us are happy that triage pilots are not screwed up the ass with training times. Stop thinking that you deserve free SP. You don't. You don't deserve a damn thing in this game. Everyone gets the same treatment. Admit little forum alt, you don't have a carrier and now you are just a tryhard :D and what i heard, pilot like me who has over 100m sp, those extractor/injector junks are mostly usless
Rosal Milag Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 30	Posted - 2016.02.08 23:10:58 - [117] - Quote ApolloF117 HUN wrote: Rosal Milag wrote: Malcanis wrote: There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots. Yes because adding 4.5 million sp and adding 12 million sp is an equivalent event. Oh and did they have injectors in game when the 4.5 million sp was added? Man, everyone but you totally missed them. This is the best case scenario for CCP to keep the SP of the most advanced players from inflating more while keeping total value of the game null. Admit to the truth, you want free SP for no other reason than CCP has given SP in one circumstance similar in the past. The rest of us are happy that triage pilots are not screwed up the ass with training times. Stop thinking that you deserve free SP. You don't. You don't deserve a damn thing in this game. Everyone gets the same treatment. Admit little forum alt, you don't have a carrier and now you are just a tryhard :D and what i heard, pilot like me who has over 100m sp, those extractor/injector junks are mostly usless I do have a carrier, two actually. I'm looking to pick up the minmatar FAX skill and keep my gallente carrier where it is.
Rosal Milag Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 30	Posted - 2016.02.08 23:12:04 - [118] - Quote ApolloF117 HUN wrote: and what i heard, pilot like me who has over 100m sp, those extractor/injector junks are mostly usless So, you can't siphon off 500k SP like the rest of us? Huh, I totally missed that in the patch notes.
D3m0n sam Shadow Incursion The Banished 52	Posted - 2016.02.08 23:14:47 - [119] - Quote "if you could fly it before the patch you can fly it after the patch" All i have to say
Forlorn Wongraven Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 165	Posted - 2016.02.08 23:14:47 - [120] - Quote Rosal Milag wrote: ApolloF117 HUN wrote: and what i heard, pilot like me who has over 100m sp, those extractor/injector junks are mostly usless So, you can't siphon off 500k SP like the rest of us? Huh, I totally missed that in the patch notes. Its more like getting only 150k SP out of those 500k raw SP. But apparently you missed that in the patch notes. Quote: > 80 million skillpoints = 150k skillpoints per injector Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW
Disclosed Desire Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.02.08 23:34:43 - [121] - Quote So I have to buy a new skill book to get my skills remapped? What about capital repair skills? Triage skills? Why can't we get those deallocated as well?
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2962	Posted - 2016.02.08 23:53:34 - [122] - Quote Malcanis wrote: There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots. Because otherwise those pilots lost access to existing hulls that they could use. This change to carriers is more akin to the mining frigates & cruisers losing all their bonuses to mining and the new mining frigate being introduced. Where CCP did not award skill points because the hulls still existed and could still be flown. And I sure don't remember lots of experienced people screaming that it wasn't fair that they didn't get given the new mining frigate at V. As I said before I am neutral, but historical precedent of this sort of change actually is that people have to train the new hull.
Ravcharas Infinite Point Northern Army 434	Posted - 2016.02.08 23:53:51 - [123] - Quote Rosal Milag wrote: Malcanis wrote: There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots. Yes because adding 4.5 million sp and adding 12 million sp is an equivalent event. Oh and did they have injectors in game when the 4.5 million sp was added? Man, everyone but you totally missed them. This is the best case scenario for CCP to keep the SP of the most advanced players from inflating more while keeping total value of the game null. Admit to the truth, you want free SP for no other reason than CCP has given SP in one circumstance similar in the past. The rest of us are happy that triage pilots are not screwed up the ass with training times. Stop thinking that you deserve free SP. You don't. You don't deserve a damn thing in this game. Everyone gets the same treatment. Stop screaming about skillpoints. Skillpoints doesn't matter, they're just a measure of time spent. It's what capabilities you have unlocked that matters. If they gave everyone five billion skillpoints locked into advanced shitposting, nothing would happen, nothing would change.
Lugh Crow-Slave 1528	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:00:33 - [124] - Quote Dianila Artemisa wrote: Sentient Blade wrote: I am curious about the skill book prices in this regard. I would be hoping it would be closer to the dreadnaught skills than the carrier... otherwise that's going to suck up billions more. Imagine the tears! (setting it closer to carrier than to dread would make it a nice ISK sink though) EDIT: After checking my wallet, let's hope it's closer to the dread skillbook price. sis si its currently a x14 skill for 500mill Citadel worm hole tax
Valterra Craven 592	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:00:54 - [125] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. Cheers, CCP Larrikin You guys are really really frustrating on when and when you don't refund SP for skills affected. The fact is that you guys either need to A come up with clear and concise rules that you communicate to the community at large on how all future skill changes will be handled or B straight refund SP for any skill that gets changed. Your old excuse of not refunding SP are no long valid given that you are now implementing Skill based trading.
Lugh Crow-Slave 1528	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:06:36 - [126] - Quote Tiberian Deci wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: It's you can fly what you could fly, not you can do what you could. You will still be able to fly a carrier unless you decide not to. There are 0 ship that you could fly that you will no longer be able to unless you decide to switch your SP via refund to something else and at that point, YOU made the decision to change so CCP's rule of "If you can fly it before you will after" is not broken. I feel like you haven't yet made the distinction between being able to fly* something and being able to fly something. Sure, anyone with Gallente Battleship I can fly a Megathron, but without a core of engineering, armor, and gunnery skills they can't really fly it. Same thing for carriers. I have spent two years training a toon from scratch who can do almost everything perfectly in a carrier. Now in order to fulfill the same roles I am almost perfect at I need to drop 2b isk on skillbooks and add another 8+ months of training time to my skill queue, oh, and I can't do it whenever I want because of the shitass attribute system? That's a raw deal and anyone can see it, except you I guess. may be even worse when it comes to fighters both the new fighter skills are looking like x12 Citadel worm hole tax
Cara Forelli Meticulously Indifferent 1535	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:11:04 - [127] - Quote Looks at wallet Welp...which FAX do I want to pay for....again? Oh wait, I don't know because I don't have any details. Adventures New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: *House Forelli* Titan's Lament
Snowmann Arrow Industries 42	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:19:32 - [128] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Tiberian Deci wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: It's you can fly what you could fly, not you can do what you could. You will still be able to fly a carrier unless you decide not to. There are 0 ship that you could fly that you will no longer be able to unless you decide to switch your SP via refund to something else and at that point, YOU made the decision to change so CCP's rule of "If you can fly it before you will after" is not broken. I feel like you haven't yet made the distinction between being able to fly* something and being able to fly something. Sure, anyone with Gallente Battleship I can fly a Megathron, but without a core of engineering, armor, and gunnery skills they can't really fly it. Same thing for carriers. I have spent two years training a toon from scratch who can do almost everything perfectly in a carrier. Now in order to fulfill the same roles I am almost perfect at I need to drop 2b isk on skillbooks and add another 8+ months of training time to my skill queue, oh, and I can't do it whenever I want because of the shitass attribute system? That's a raw deal and anyone can see it, except you I guess. may be even worse when it comes to fighters both the new fighter skills are looking like x12 Maybe they will make the new Fighter Squadrons worth the training. Oh, and the skill book cost...
Memphis Baas 1082	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:21:04 - [129] - Quote Cara Forelli wrote: Looks at wallet Welp...which FAX do I want to pay for....again? Oh wait, I don't know because I don't have any details. I think they only released this thread because Kahn Liam was having a panic attack in the other thread about the ships, and CCP Darwin tried to be nice. Note how they told us to wait for a dev blog, not a hastily written dev post.
Sub Starasque Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 5	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:29:02 - [130] - Quote Rosal Milag wrote: Malcanis wrote: There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots. Yes because adding 4.5 million sp and adding 12 million sp is an equivalent event. Oh and did they have injectors in game when the 4.5 million sp was added? Man, everyone but you totally missed them. So you're saying that we should have to drop real cash or the billions in equivalent isk to get something back that we already had? Solid logic there Einstein.
Ashterothi Aideron Robotics 350	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:41:11 - [131] - Quote I fear this is a concerning step away from how such things have been handled in the past. As of right now carriers server two roles, that of being a carrier, and that of being a triage carrier. After the FAX releases, part of that ability will be split off into this new ship, behind a new skill which must be bought and trained. Traditionally the rule has always been, "If you can do it before, you can do it now". This is a shift from that to "We will allow you to choose which of these two you want, but we will give you some time to prepare." which is pretty far from the same thing. I understand that this issue is somewhat mild in the grand scheme of things, and doesn't really directly effect me, but I believe it sends a very dangerous message. Especially as SP now has a tangible monetary value to CCP beyond subscription reward. Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
Lelira Cirim The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 270	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:45:23 - [132] - Quote Rancid Meatballs wrote: What happens if a pilot logs in his carrier, and there are no SP in his carrier skill? I believe the correct sound effect is PTOOIE Do not actively tank my patience.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2962	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:46:13 - [133] - Quote Ashterothi wrote: I fear this is a concerning step away from how such things have been handled in the past. As of right now carriers server two roles, that of being a carrier, and that of being a triage carrier. After the FAX releases, part of that ability will be split off into this new ship, behind a new skill which must be bought and trained. Traditionally the rule has always been, "If you can do it before, you can do it now". This is a shift from that to "We will allow you to choose which of these two you want, but we will give you some time to prepare." which is pretty far from the same thing. I understand that this issue is somewhat mild in the grand scheme of things, and doesn't really directly effect me, but I believe it sends a very dangerous message. Especially as SP now has a tangible monetary value to CCP beyond subscription reward. No, the rule has not and never has been that. The rule was 'If you could fly it before you can fly it after' There are a number of historical changes where a ship has had it's role significantly changed, such as the mining ships I mentioned earlier, or for the geddon from a laser boat to a neut boat, and other missile/turret boat changes, none of which received any kind of refund.
Ashterothi Aideron Robotics 350	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:51:04 - [134] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Ashterothi wrote: I fear this is a concerning step away from how such things have been handled in the past. As of right now carriers server two roles, that of being a carrier, and that of being a triage carrier. After the FAX releases, part of that ability will be split off into this new ship, behind a new skill which must be bought and trained. Traditionally the rule has always been, "If you can do it before, you can do it now". This is a shift from that to "We will allow you to choose which of these two you want, but we will give you some time to prepare." which is pretty far from the same thing. I understand that this issue is somewhat mild in the grand scheme of things, and doesn't really directly effect me, but I believe it sends a very dangerous message. Especially as SP now has a tangible monetary value to CCP beyond subscription reward. No, the rule has not and never has been that. The rule was 'If you could fly it before you can fly it after' There are a number of historical changes where a ship has had it's role significantly changed, such as the mining ships I mentioned earlier, or for the geddon from a laser boat to a neut boat, and other missile/turret boat changes, none of which received any kind of refund. You are correct that ships that have been altered have not have refunding, but this is actually splitting off some of the functionality and expecting people to buy it a second time. This situation doesn't map exactly to anything in the past, and they are free to implement this as is. It isn't terrible, just disappointing. The troubling bit is that they seem to acknowledge that there is a choice to be made, a choice you didn't have to make before. They opted to side with not allowing magic SP to appear, which is different than past events. All I am saying is I hope that this is not a step towards evaluating SP as a monetizable asset, and thus granting SP as potential loss revenue, as this would impact future decisions as well as this one. Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
Lugh Crow-Slave 1528	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:52:44 - [135] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Celeste Benal wrote: If you aren't going to use those fighter skills anymore, grab some extractors and pull those SP for sale to recoup your FAX skillbook cost. Why? I need to pay for every thing. CCP for very long time uphold rule : If you can fly it now ... You will find multiple posts from CCP employees stating this, you will find this in dev blogs. Now CCP changed this while changing at the same time important, time consuming and expensive line of ships. Problem is that you will be no longer capable of doing the same stuff like before after this changes. In some cases this is very big change. convenient they changed their stance now that they sell extractors Citadel worm hole tax
Tiberian Deci Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 150	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:54:01 - [136] - Quote Rosal Milag wrote: ApolloF117 HUN wrote: and what i heard, pilot like me who has over 100m sp, those extractor/injector junks are mostly usless So, you can't siphon off 500k SP like the rest of us? Huh, I totally missed that in the patch notes. Why would he be trying to siphon off SP if it is allocated in a useful way? And if he wanted to inject it, there's a 70% (350,000) SP penalty because of how much SP he already has. Go back to ratting in your Thanatos, and let those of us who actually use carriers for Triage talk about it you ****** little forum alt
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2962	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:54:29 - [137] - Quote Ashterothi wrote: You are correct that ships that have been altered have not have refunding, but this is actually splitting off some of the functionality and expecting people to buy it a second time. This situation doesn't map exactly to anything in the past, and they are free to implement this as is. It isn't terrible, just disappointing. The troubling bit is that they seem to acknowledge that there is a choice to be made, a choice you didn't have to make before. They opted to side with not allowing magic SP to appear, which is different than past events. All I am saying is I hope that this is not a step towards evaluating SP as a monetizable asset, and thus granting SP as potential loss revenue, as this would impact future decisions as well as this one. Except it does. The mining ship changes split off mining from all the racial frigates and introduced a new skill for ore frigates. And people were not awarded the ore frigate skill based on their racial frigates. Certainly the SP involved was a much smaller number, but the principle was exactly the same. That said, I'm not against CCP changing their policy, but they are not being inconsistent with their policy nor is this a totally new and unprecedented situation.
Ashterothi Aideron Robotics 350	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:54:46 - [138] - Quote The issue is of course compounded as has been explained here by the fact that we now must make a lasting choice without much to go by. I suspect in the long run it would be far better to allow pioneers of the new system to go forward boldly, and not be afraid that such a significant investment will be a waste of time and resources. The situation is still very salvageable, it is just not the optimal path in my opinion. Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
Ashterothi Aideron Robotics 350	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:57:25 - [139] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Ashterothi wrote: You are correct that ships that have been altered have not have refunding, but this is actually splitting off some of the functionality and expecting people to buy it a second time. This situation doesn't map exactly to anything in the past, and they are free to implement this as is. It isn't terrible, just disappointing. The troubling bit is that they seem to acknowledge that there is a choice to be made, a choice you didn't have to make before. They opted to side with not allowing magic SP to appear, which is different than past events. All I am saying is I hope that this is not a step towards evaluating SP as a monetizable asset, and thus granting SP as potential loss revenue, as this would impact future decisions as well as this one. Except it does. The mining ship changes split off mining from all the racial frigates and introduced a new skill for ore frigates. And people were not awarded the ore frigate skill based on their racial frigates. Certainly the SP involved was a much smaller number, but the principle was exactly the same. That said, I'm not against CCP changing their policy, but they are not being inconsistent with their policy nor is this a totally new and unprecedented situation. I really like that argument, but I am afraid I don't think it quite applies either. The mining frigates were new ships designed to fill a roll that was not being filled by the T1s, and freed up those hulls to be used for something else entirely. The difference is there is no specific skill to fly the racial T1s, and so the number of people who would feel "cheated" by this, as opposed to being happy to train the new skill, would be very very low. I still see this as being far closer to the destroyer and BC split. Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
Ashterothi Aideron Robotics 350	Posted - 2016.02.09 00:58:11 - [140] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: Celeste Benal wrote: If you aren't going to use those fighter skills anymore, grab some extractors and pull those SP for sale to recoup your FAX skillbook cost. Why? I need to pay for every thing. CCP for very long time uphold rule : If you can fly it now ... You will find multiple posts from CCP employees stating this, you will find this in dev blogs. Now CCP changed this while changing at the same time important, time consuming and expensive line of ships. Problem is that you will be no longer capable of doing the same stuff like before after this changes. In some cases this is very big change. convenient they changed their stance now that they sell extractors Even if this ISN'T the primary motivation, the timing it abismal. Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
Tiberian Deci Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 150	Posted - 2016.02.09 01:03:38 - [141] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Malcanis wrote: There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots. Because otherwise those pilots lost access to existing hulls that they could use. This change to carriers is more akin to the mining frigates & cruisers losing all their bonuses to mining and the new mining frigate being introduced. Where CCP did not award skill points because the hulls still existed and could still be flown. And I sure don't remember lots of experienced people screaming that it wasn't fair that they didn't get given the new mining frigate at V. As I said before I am neutral, but historical precedent of this sort of change actually is that people have to train the new hull. I wasn't around then, but I'd like to hypothesize that there was less screaming because it wasn't a x14 skill for the hull with x10 and x12 skills you could train for 1/2 of the utility of the hull, plus another 15-ish million SP for the drone skills for the other 1/2 of the utility of the hull.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2962	Posted - 2016.02.09 01:05:36 - [142] - Quote Ashterothi wrote: I really like that argument, but I am afraid I don't think it quite applies either. The mining frigates were new ships designed to fill a roll that was not being filled by the T1s, and freed up those hulls to be used for something else entirely. The difference is there is no specific skill to fly the racial T1s, and so the number of people who would feel "cheated" by this, as opposed to being happy to train the new skill, would be very very low. I still see this as being far closer to the destroyer and BC split. I really can't agree with that. There was a T1 frigate bonused with mining. And people did use them There were T1 cruisers bonused with mining. The skill split removed all that ability from that 'skill' and put it into a totally new skill with a totally new ship. This is exactly the situation that is happening with the Carriers. The two differences are the Sp involved is a lot more, and the split is 50/50 while the T1 racial skills kept most of their 'attributes' as there was more than one hull the skill gave access to to begin with. But the actual situation is the same, just a difference in details. So going by historical example CCP is actually being more generous than in the past already by allowing people to respec to the new skill (or to something else entirely even). Sure the SP involved is more, but a larger SP number does not change the principle, it just changes it from newbies being affected to vets being affected. And suddenly we see lots of screaming this time.
Zealot Ghasha Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2016.02.09 01:17:41 - [143] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: So going by historical example CCP is actually being more generous than in the past already by allowing people to respec to the new skill (or to something else entirely even). Sure the SP involved is more, but a larger SP number does not change the principle, it just changes it from newbies being affected to vets being affected. And suddenly we see lots of screaming this time. So generous that they will allow me to spend god knows how much money to move drone and fighter skills out of a triage pilot, or rep and triage skills out of a dps pilot. In other words, I'm expected to either spend minimum 5-6 months just training skills to do what I can already do, or I'm expected to just "get over" having millions of SP sitting there useless because the carrier can't use capital RR, triage and such. yeah, that's very generous to their back pockets, I see what you mean.
Lugh Crow-Slave 1531	Posted - 2016.02.09 01:55:44 - [144] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Ashterothi wrote: I really like that argument, but I am afraid I don't think it quite applies either. The mining frigates were new ships designed to fill a roll that was not being filled by the T1s, and freed up those hulls to be used for something else entirely. The difference is there is no specific skill to fly the racial T1s, and so the number of people who would feel "cheated" by this, as opposed to being happy to train the new skill, would be very very low. I still see this as being far closer to the destroyer and BC split. I really can't agree with that. There was a T1 frigate bonused with mining. And people did use them There were T1 cruisers bonused with mining. The skill split removed all that ability from that 'skill' and put it into a totally new skill with a totally new ship. This is exactly the situation that is happening with the Carriers. The two differences are the Sp involved is a lot more, and the split is 50/50 while the T1 racial skills kept most of their 'attributes' as there was more than one hull the skill gave access to to begin with. But the actual situation is the same, just a difference in details. So going by historical example CCP is actually being more generous than in the past already by allowing people to respec to the new skill (or to something else entirely even). Sure the SP involved is more, but a larger SP number does not change the principle, it just changes it from newbies being affected to vets being affected. And suddenly we see lots of screaming this time. except that was just one new skill if i only had to train FAX i would not be upset but i have to train four more skills one for each race so rather than taking a month to get back where i was i now need to train about 8 months Citadel worm hole tax
Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 24	Posted - 2016.02.09 02:01:35 - [145] - Quote So uh, am I understanding correctly that, after spending the past ~8 months training this character for an Archon (paid with 2 $60 payments), I'm about to have my largest SP sink split? I planned on having Archon Mastery IV (the recommended minimum skills iirc) by Pandemic Horde's 1-year, but for the equivalent capabilities it looks like I'd have to spend.. how many more months on training? Quote: you can reallocate your refunded skillpoints right back into your racial carrier skill so you can fly both ships Seems to conflict with what's being said on reddit.
Seven Koskanaiken FinFleet Northern Coalition. 1698	Posted - 2016.02.09 02:45:58 - [146] - Quote I tried to make sense of it, this is the best I came up with http://i.imgur.com/h4Oqqzo.png c/d?
Ashterothi Aideron Robotics 350	Posted - 2016.02.09 03:26:22 - [147] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Ashterothi wrote: I really like that argument, but I am afraid I don't think it quite applies either. The mining frigates were new ships designed to fill a roll that was not being filled by the T1s, and freed up those hulls to be used for something else entirely. The difference is there is no specific skill to fly the racial T1s, and so the number of people who would feel "cheated" by this, as opposed to being happy to train the new skill, would be very very low. I still see this as being far closer to the destroyer and BC split. I really can't agree with that. There was a T1 frigate bonused with mining. And people did use them There were T1 cruisers bonused with mining. The skill split removed all that ability from that 'skill' and put it into a totally new skill with a totally new ship. This is exactly the situation that is happening with the Carriers. The two differences are the Sp involved is a lot more, and the split is 50/50 while the T1 racial skills kept most of their 'attributes' as there was more than one hull the skill gave access to to begin with. But the actual situation is the same, just a difference in details. So going by historical example CCP is actually being more generous than in the past already by allowing people to respec to the new skill (or to something else entirely even). Sure the SP involved is more, but a larger SP number does not change the principle, it just changes it from newbies being affected to vets being affected. And suddenly we see lots of screaming this time. I will agree that your argument is very apt at proving that CCP has precedent to go this route, but this isn't about what they are allowed to do, it is about what it means for how they make decisions. I personally believe the wiser move would have been to give out the SP to the players who really want to play with the new toys and swing for the fences with the expansion. This move seems to diminish the momentum in a really disappointing way (though by no means does is negate the excitement for what is coming). I didn't say they couldn't do it, or that they shouldn't do it, only that I am troubled as to the potential underlying _why_ of the decision. Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
Asher Amazingness State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.02.09 04:05:24 - [148] - Quote I'm really excited at the prospect of either paying tons of real money to extract all my now-useless drone skills and reinject them at a huge loss (if I go triage) or paying tons of real money to extract my now-useless Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration 5 and subcapital/Capital Remote Armor/Shield/Capacitor 5 skills and reinject them at a huge loss (if I go carrier) or having to train 7 months to be able to fly all 4 racial triage + carriers again (which I can do today but not tomorrow), or having simply wasted ~8 million skillpoints on one or the other of the above set of skills if I don't extract them at all. And since I have 2 perfect triage pilots I get to make this choice and potentially pay for extractors twice, what emergent gameplay. I never understood the vitriol directed toward CCP before but wow, I'm feeling the hate on this change. So much for "if you can fly it now, you'll always be able to fly it" or whatever that BS was. This change is an insultingly transparent money grab and it looks like a lot of it is intended to come from capital pilots.
beakerax Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 226	Posted - 2016.02.09 04:18:49 - [149] - Quote Malcanis wrote: There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots. yeah that was pretty dumb, glad they're doing it differently this time
scorpion orpio Essence Industries Any Hoal Is A Goal 0	Posted - 2016.02.09 04:45:25 - [150] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Sakido Cain wrote: OK, we will be refunded the racial carrier skill points, so if we decide we hate the new carrier changes we aren't stuck in it... cool. What about the Triage skill? If we decide we don't wanna go back into either of these ships because we don't like them, should we not also be able to reallocate the skill points that can only be used with this ship? Skills that need refunding. Racial Carriers Fighters Fighter Bombers Capital Energy Transfers Capital Remove Armor Repair Capital Remote Shield Repair Capital Remote Energy Transfer Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration TBH, with such a shake up of capitals, id also suggest that; Advances Spaceship Command Capital Ships Racial Dreadnoughts Capital Armor Repair Capital Shield Repair Capital Weapon Systems (multiple) Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration ...should be refunded too. Allow people to make the choice where they want to land in the new meta. Its lame enough that you are taking a role that many of us can currently perform and making us train another 40 days at the cost of 500m. Without also binding us on decisions we made on an out of date meta. If not this then a full refund of skills. Also, Crosi for CSM!
Nat Silverguard Aideron Robotics 267	Posted - 2016.02.09 04:48:55 - [151] - Quote so i guess, "HTFU" is not applicable this time eh? Just Add Water
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17445	Posted - 2016.02.09 05:00:10 - [152] - Quote Tiberian Deci wrote: Nevyn Auscent wrote: Malcanis wrote: There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots. Because otherwise those pilots lost access to existing hulls that they could use. This change to carriers is more akin to the mining frigates & cruisers losing all their bonuses to mining and the new mining frigate being introduced. Where CCP did not award skill points because the hulls still existed and could still be flown. And I sure don't remember lots of experienced people screaming that it wasn't fair that they didn't get given the new mining frigate at V. As I said before I am neutral, but historical precedent of this sort of change actually is that people have to train the new hull. I wasn't around then, but I'd like to hypothesize that there was less screaming because it wasn't a x14 skill for the hull with x10 and x12 skills you could train for 1/2 of the utility of the hull, plus another 15-ish million SP for the drone skills for the other 1/2 of the utility of the hull. Not to mention that the mining frigates weren't just a role split but were also vastly better and had entirely new capabilities, and were in any case not that important to players who wanted to specialize in mining unless they cared about gas mining. Capital pilots aren't gaining anything new; they're being asked to pay up to 18m sp for the ability to use ships that will be weaker than the ones they have now. If ccp insisted on splitting the skills (and I don't see the necessity for doing so when Caldari Frigate covers both the Kestrel and the Bantam) then significantly reducing the Rank was the way to go. Make both skills Rank 8 works fine for me. I don't care a bit about "free SP", since I have zero interest in using either extractor or injectors. What I care about is the ability to do on Wednesday that I was able to do on Monday. Asking me to spend 2B on skill books and acquire and fit twice as many capital hulls seems more than a sufficient price to pay for that without adding 7 months of training or spending several hundred pounds as well. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Very Aggressive Reacharound State War Academy Caldari State 2	Posted - 2016.02.09 05:05:31 - [153] - Quote CCP you are disgusting making us train 4 new racial skills for logistics carrier. fire the new EA execs whos idea this is and stop with the money grab. It is so disgusting that you are forcing us to train more skills... taking what the carrier could already do and now makeing it take twice as long. You are such a bunch of sleeze balls. what is this all a ploy to get us to buy your stupid extraters!! I want to use so many more words but i can't but seriously remember incarna... remember monocole gate. stop trying to fleece us with your pay to play Bullshit. we don't even know what changes you are making or the stats that are on the fax so we don't know which one will be the best to use.. so we don't know which to train.. WTF FAX should be non racial like logistics, it already takes forever to train carriers up and now you want to limit what we can fly and as much as you change the damn ships changing what is best it's so stupid. also making us train 3 sperate fighter skills is absurd ah you guys are just disgusting!!!. #incarna #fireMariaSayans
Dixie Mason ZERO TAX MERCS 27	Posted - 2016.02.09 05:28:46 - [154] - Quote My congratulations to CCP, you are perfect in antagonizing your customer base. Of course it's your game and your rules but I will have my little say in early/mid summer when my 3 accounts will expire.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17446	Posted - 2016.02.09 05:44:23 - [155] - Quote Oh look, a well timed AUR sale is announced. Well that sets my mind at rest as to the motivation behind this. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Lugh Crow-Slave 1535	Posted - 2016.02.09 06:47:40 - [156] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Oh look, a well timed AUR sale is announced. Well that sets my mind at rest as to the motivation behind this. Like I said convenient Citadel worm hole tax
Lugh Crow-Slave 1535	Posted - 2016.02.09 06:50:30 - [157] - Quote Very Aggressive Reacharound wrote: FAX should be non racial like logistics, it already takes forever to train carriers up and now you want to limit what we can fly and as much as you change the damn ships changing what is best it's so stupid. also making us train 3 sperate fighter skills is absurd ah you guys are just disgusting!!!. #incarna #fireMariaSayans No the fax should be racial they are capitals however they should not be +ù14 as they are not a super capital skill Citadel worm hole tax
DeLaBu Digital Origami Evictus. 31	Posted - 2016.02.09 07:05:01 - [158] - Quote CCP, please provide paths to both sides of specialisation. The FAX machine users seem to have a path to their side, but the carrier path users will be stuck with the (now unused) triage module skills. Or will there be something similar to a triage module for carrier users that this skill will be applicable to? Or am I entirely missing a point somewhere? Thanks.
Fladmeister Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers. 0	Posted - 2016.02.09 07:34:56 - [159] - Quote Isn't this why we have the CSM? "The purpose of the CSM is to represent society interests to CCP. This requires active engagement with the player community to master EVE issue awareness, understanding, and evaluation in the context of the greatest good for the greater player base."
Very Aggressive Reacharound State War Academy Caldari State 2	Posted - 2016.02.09 08:10:53 - [160] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Would have been a lot simpler to just convert 'tactical logistics recon' to the new FAX skill. And base the performance of triage on that. ^this and it should be non racial its giant logistics and to train carrier and fax would still be long train but you could cross train easier much like current logistics. if it works for other logistics why change it for carrier... oh wait i forgot you hirred Maria Sayans and you have to make people pay for injectors.
Very Aggressive Reacharound State War Academy Caldari State 2	Posted - 2016.02.09 08:12:50 - [161] - Quote Kallor Eidermann Tes'thesula wrote: Sub Starasque wrote: So now I have to train a new 14x skill to do what I could do before? That stings. I feel burned. I would like to second what Sub Starasque said above. This character has all racial carriers at 5. I can currently fly DPS OR Triage carriers of all races. And now I have to sink 100 days of training into being able to continue to do so, without getting anything new from it. welcome to new pay to play ccp wants you to buy injectors
Very Aggressive Reacharound State War Academy Caldari State 2	Posted - 2016.02.09 08:17:16 - [162] - Quote Axel Stenmark wrote: Today, you can fly a fighter carrier and a triage carrier. Tomorrow you have to decide if you want to fly a fighter carrier and/or a force auxiliary without knowing how either of them will work in the citadel expansion. If you think you want to use a "triage" carrier, you need to buy a 500 million ISK skill book and spend the next two months training an X14 skill, just to retain your current ability in triage. You can also use skill injectors, which will add cost, if you wish to skip the two months of training. 500 million skill book and two PLEX and two months time (or additional ISK on injectors) to keep an ability you already have. Now mulitply that by how many characters can currently fly triage and you see how this is a giant ISK sink. Expect even more pressure on PLEX prices than just skill injectors. yup
Lugh Crow-Slave 1536	Posted - 2016.02.09 08:20:39 - [163] - Quote Very Aggressive Reacharound wrote: Kallor Eidermann Tes'thesula wrote: Sub Starasque wrote: So now I have to train a new 14x skill to do what I could do before? That stings. I feel burned. I would like to second what Sub Starasque said above. This character has all racial carriers at 5. I can currently fly DPS OR Triage carriers of all races. And now I have to sink 100 days of training into being able to continue to do so, without getting anything new from it. welcome to new pay to play ccp wants you to buy injectors Lol of you have all four to V that's more than 100 days it's over 200 And that's before the new x12 fighter skills Citadel worm hole tax
Sean Sonnach Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance 6	Posted - 2016.02.09 08:32:12 - [164] - Quote Terrible planning. You realise you are SoFaKing over your long standing and loyal customers the most with this change? CCP_Just Got Sh1tt3r
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1169	Posted - 2016.02.09 08:32:30 - [165] - Quote I can't wait to get pounded in the ass with the fighter skills next.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2963	Posted - 2016.02.09 08:35:04 - [166] - Quote Very Aggressive Reacharound wrote: ^this and it should be non racial its giant logistics and to train carrier and fax would still be long train but you could cross train easier much like current logistics. if it works for other logistics why change it for carrier... oh wait i forgot you hirred Maria Sayans and you have to make people pay for injectors. Or possibly it's because Carriers are considered T1 ships, not T2 ships and T1 ships have racial lines, and T2 ships require those same racial lines to V per race and then an additional skill on top. Really, you are just having an entitlement whine at this point. And Malcanis, you are being a two year old. This doesn't take effect for three months or longer, of course there was going to be an Aur sale between now and then, and timing it with the new release of a new aur item is common business practice, or are CCP not allowed to use basic common business techniques to make any profit at all?
Lugh Crow-Slave 1538	Posted - 2016.02.09 08:43:06 - [167] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Very Aggressive Reacharound wrote: ^this and it should be non racial its giant logistics and to train carrier and fax would still be long train but you could cross train easier much like current logistics. if it works for other logistics why change it for carrier... oh wait i forgot you hirred Maria Sayans and you have to make people pay for injectors. Or possibly it's because Carriers are considered T1 ships, not T2 ships and T1 ships have racial lines, and T2 ships require those same racial lines to V per race and then an additional skill on top. Really, you are just having an entitlement whine at this point. And Malcanis, you are being a two year old. This doesn't take effect for three months or longer, of course there was going to be an Aur sale between now and then, and timing it with the new release of a new aur item is common business practice, or are CCP not allowed to use basic common business techniques to make any profit at all? Why a company does something -> irrelevant Why the consumer thinks a company is doing something -> relevant Citadel worm hole tax
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1169	Posted - 2016.02.09 08:59:28 - [168] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Very Aggressive Reacharound wrote: ^this and it should be non racial its giant logistics and to train carrier and fax would still be long train but you could cross train easier much like current logistics. if it works for other logistics why change it for carrier... oh wait i forgot you hirred Maria Sayans and you have to make people pay for injectors. Or possibly it's because Carriers are considered T1 ships, not T2 ships and T1 ships have racial lines, and T2 ships require those same racial lines to V per race and then an additional skill on top. Really, you are just having an entitlement whine at this point. And Malcanis, you are being a two year old. This doesn't take effect for three months or longer, of course there was going to be an Aur sale between now and then, and timing it with the new release of a new aur item is common business practice, or are CCP not allowed to use basic common business techniques to make any profit at all? There comes a point of scaling. This might follow the principles of mining frigates (and I agree there, there is precedent) but that was like 5k isk and a rank 1 skill . That is not the same on a relative scale as 2 billion layout, a 14x skill and losing half of what one can do today overnight. I mean, be honest, if they added a new skill required for each ships to be flown: 14x, at 500m a book you'd be utterly furious. Let's call it "$RACE flight authorization skills" and without it, you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today. Are you seriously telling me you'd be ok with that? So, are you surprised the carrier guys are more than a little pissed? Because I'm not. There is a difference between blindly following precedent and doing the decent thing. A more recent example of that would be when the starting skills were altered but newbros caught in the middle got a free SP drop. I don't recall anyone crying about that, but this is ok right? Because it's older guys getting the shaft? It is a very disappointing move from CCP, very disappointing indeed. And as I say, I expect to see a humping on fighter skills too.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2963	Posted - 2016.02.09 09:16:41 - [169] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: I mean, be honest, if they added a new skill required for each ships to be flown: 14x, at 500m a book you'd be utterly furious. Let's call it "$RACE flight authorization skills" and without it, you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today. Are you seriously telling me you'd be ok with that? So, are you surprised the carrier guys are more than a little pissed? Because I'm not. You are trying to compare apples & oranges here though. You are presenting a case where I couldn't fly the hulls I could fly today, CCP are presenting a case where they have removed a role from a ship because it was too powerful with it's multirole ability and then created a new ship to cover that role because it's an important role in the overall meta. Yes, it's a nerf, but it was an obviously needed nerf to the carrier, and those people getting upset over not getting both skills free are mainly getting upset over false pretences and bad examples that don't actually match what is really going on. I'm neutral on the overall skill question, but when people are raging and abusing CCP over false pretences then I'm going to call them out on their behaviour. Especially when it's not old characters getting the shaft, because newbro's have to spend exactly the same time training they will. It's newbro's who get the shaft if old characters get both skills for free, not the other way around.
NaK'Lin Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder 58	Posted - 2016.02.09 09:34:42 - [170] - Quote So, it is actually a bad solution. Personally I believe we should get all relevant SP refunded and simply allocate them into something and make a commitment. Alternatively, Just take each persons Tactical Logi Recon skill level and convert it into the FAX level. The module shall have the effects based on the FAX level. Or the module has no effect modifier and the hull gets the effect modifiers, based on FAX levels. Similar to Marauders. You PAY to fly your ships in eve. It takes you time to train and a fully maxed Carrier + Triage costs beyond the 100 USD mark just in training time. I believe it isn't asking for much, instead of this convoluted solution we're being offered now. Furthermore, with the current solution, should some of my toons switch to FAX, what about Fighter skills? They use to be able to aid a Triage in defense, and won't be able to be used in a FAX at all. Shall we just stare at those SP? Inversely, what about all the RR skills and Triage SP, should we chose not to inject FAX? I hope CCP reads this post, as I honestly the above listed alternative for the transition to be viable. Go ahead and like the post, Thx.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1170	Posted - 2016.02.09 09:39:05 - [171] - Quote No I'm not, I'm saying you'd just be less good at them i.e. not able to do what you could previously. The very fact you're dancing around it tells me how happy you would be. And no, it's very clearly an older player shafting. Newbro wants to train triage? 500m per FAX. Old guy wants it? 500m on top of the 500m they already sunk and the associated vestigial skills with the now useless to them carrier skill. At the end of the day, with different hulls they could today fulfil two roles, this is 100% not possible as a result of the changes. To return to this it's about 7 months and a couple of billion. Smaller groups are hurt even more by this to boot as they rely on the same pilots being able to sit in multiple ships etc, they don't have the bodies to split between DPS and triage. It is an appalling way to handle it. Remember when they split the industrial hulls they kept the same skill. I didn't need half a dozen new skills to use all the gallente ones. CCP may be following the letter of their rules, but it's sure as hell not in the spirit of them.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2963	Posted - 2016.02.09 09:47:32 - [172] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Old guy wants it? 500m on top of the 500m they already sunk and the associated vestigial skills with the now useless to them carrier skill. What vestigial skills? You can't use fighters while in triage, so if you trained fighters you trained to fly a combat carrier as well as triage. And no, your example was directly 'you will need this new skill to fly the same hull you needed to before'. You are the one dancing around here trying to find an opening. And they didn't split the industrial hulls, All those hulls already existed. This is exactly what I am talking about, people are presenting false information and then using it to justify their outrage.
Anthar Thebess 1441	Posted - 2016.02.09 09:47:47 - [173] - Quote Yes carriers where to powerful, and it is good that they split the roles. It is good that combat refitting is gone, it is good that we get more capital modules. Changes to hulls will affect the game, not the skills. What CCP is doing is simply " PAY US AGAIN FOR THIS" it is very annoying, and unfair. When CCP introduce new destroyers, no one complain that there is something new to skill, BECAUSE THERE IS SOMETHING NEW TO TRAIN. Today, we will need to pay and train again the same things - you don't have people bitching that we will have new fighters and new skills to train - those will be NEW THINGS. You have people angry that today they can use a triage carrier and combat carrier, and after the changes they won't be able to do the same. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Lorno Black Sternenbastarde 1	Posted - 2016.02.09 09:49:39 - [174] - Quote I am so pissed. Best solution for me: Get all of these Skills to zero and have the chance to allocate them where I want them to have. But I think CCP won't reply on this thread anymore.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1170	Posted - 2016.02.09 09:53:09 - [175] - Quote If you don't even know what the carrier prereqs are, please stop bleating in a discussion about carriers. and again, re-read it. I specifically said " you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today". You know, exactly what's happening to carriers.
Anthar Thebess 1441	Posted - 2016.02.09 09:55:50 - [176] - Quote Monetization people will not allow to give capital skills to people who already had them. They can pull at least 9 extra subscriptions for each capital character that need to be retrained. No one cares about newbros this is only dictated by $. Nonsense is that you need to buy FAX skill to choose if you want to have Combat Carrier of Fax of this race. Why i simply cannot choose : Amarr -> Fax Caldari -> Fax Gallente -> DPS Minmatar (lol i know) -> no i don't know dps maybe. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2963	Posted - 2016.02.09 10:00:12 - [177] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: If you don't even know what the carrier prereqs are, please stop bleating in a discussion about carriers. and again, re-read it. I specifically said " you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today". You know, exactly what's happening to carriers. Fighters are not a pre-req for carriers. Only drones are, and drones apply to all your sub cap ships (& may even apply to FAX, we don't know yet). Jump drives are a pre-req, and will certainly be applicable to FAX. Capital ship skill is, they will be a pre-req also. Oh, and racial BS 3, that's likely to remain a pre-req for FAX's also. Want to tell me more about these vestigial skills that you HAD to train for a Triage carrier that won't apply to either FAX or all your subcap ships also. And even if you trained straight to carriers, you have subcap ships with drone space you have skills in already. Anthar Thebess wrote: Why i simply cannot choose : Amarr -> Fax Caldari -> Fax Gallente -> DPS Minmatar (lol i know) -> no i don't know dps maybe. Because CCP can't do a database query script to change every single pilots skills according to that system. That's why they have done the system they have.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1170	Posted - 2016.02.09 10:02:26 - [178] - Quote Confirming drone interfacing is useful to my dedicated logi/triage pilot. Jesus. I get it, you're of the **** the old guys generation. Enjoy your game.
Tawaif Ministry of War Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2016.02.09 10:05:05 - [179] - Quote I would like all my SP back," for free", and I'll reallocate it into whatever carrier, triage and drone skills I think I need , after the dust has settled.. And the Isk for the skill books please CCP.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2963	Posted - 2016.02.09 10:05:49 - [180] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Confirming drone interfacing is useful to my dedicated logi/triage pilot. Jesus. I get it, you're of the **** the old guys generation. Enjoy your game. Confirming missile skills were useful to a dedicated Naglfar pilot. CCP have changed ship roles many a time in the past which left a 'dedicated' pilot of just that ship with skills that were no longer applicable to that ship. That however is not CCP's problem in overall game design but yours in insisting that the only ship you can and will ever fly is that particular ship.
Tawaif Ministry of War Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2016.02.09 10:12:01 - [181] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Confirming drone interfacing is useful to my dedicated logi/triage pilot. Jesus. I get it, you're of the **** the old guys generation. Enjoy your game. Confirming missile skills were useful to a dedicated Naglfar pilot. CCP have changed ship roles many a time in the past which left a 'dedicated' pilot of just that ship with skills that were no longer applicable to that ship. That however is not CCP's problem in overall game design but yours in insisting that the only ship you can and will ever fly is that particular ship. Oh and CCP have never encouraged us to have alts that are specialized.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1170	Posted - 2016.02.09 10:42:36 - [182] - Quote I'm done arguing with people who have never sat in a carrier. That the only people who are happy about this are those enjoying a healthy dose of jealously driven schadenfreude and not actual credible cap pilots. Hell the entire focus group think's its a crappy way to handle this. However when this precedent comes around to something you do care about, I'll be sure to remind you all to htfu. And I don't even fly triage so these don't affect me, but even so I can see it's an awful, awful way to be handling this. A real two fingers to people.
Edward Olmops DUST Expeditionary Team Good Sax 318	Posted - 2016.02.09 11:02:27 - [183] - Quote Guys. Really. Yes, some of us have 2 or 5 characters with maxed out skills for several racial capitals. But. We are flying multi-billion ISK capital ships. Into combat, for ratting or just ship spinning. We are talking about a few hundred mil or a few bil (and the latter only for those among us who spend the same amount each month on subscriptions). Just go out and make ISK for a few hours - if you are max skill (and I mean player ;-) ), you should know how. Yes I know that everyone has a Jita alt and likes haggling and free stuff, but we could really do better things than starting a forum war over nothing (like log in and fly spaceships). I am really confident that no new players or spacepoor people are hurt by the suggested transition procedure. In short: to solve this whole reimbursement issue... STOP BEING POOR!
Alex Harumichi Icecream Audit Office 32	Posted - 2016.02.09 11:06:22 - [184] - Quote Well, I have carrier V, and don't really mind this change and the sp reinbursement seems more or less fair. So I have to inject a (race) fax skill, and I'll later have an option of moving all of my carrier points to fax, if I choose. Or of swapping carriers, or whatever. I can fly t2 triage now, and I'll be able to fly t2 triage when this goes live (if I choose). The only problem is that now I need to pick a fax skill that matches my current carrier, with no info on what carrier & fax I want to fly after this goes live. On the other hand, I'm sure we'll get stats etc later, so I can wait on the skillbook buy until then. One suggestion to CCP: would it make sense to just allow all carries sps to be reallocated, with no other strings attached and no fax skill requirements? That would allow people who are no longer happy with the new cap ships to go do something else, and it would also allow people to switch carrier race without paying potentially useless fax skill "tax".
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2964	Posted - 2016.02.09 11:22:09 - [185] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: However when this precedent comes around to something you do care about, I'll be sure to remind you all to htfu. You mean like every single subcap role change that has been done as part of tiericide that you have said 'HTFU' to in response to complaints already? Though I'll admit I've said the same thing to most of them also. This is nothing to do with what I can or can not do, especially since I've just finished training carrier pre-reqs in order to fly a multirole carrier if I want and now have to reassess the budget needed to do that. This is to do with the fact that this is not a precedent, the precedents have been and gone years previous and CCP are actually being more generous to cap pilots than they were to anyone else affected by their similar subcap changes.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1726	Posted - 2016.02.09 11:26:00 - [186] - Quote Very Aggressive Reacharound wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Would have been a lot simpler to just convert 'tactical logistics recon' to the new FAX skill. And base the performance of triage on that. ^this and it should be non racial its giant logistics and to train carrier and fax would still be long train but you could cross train easier much like current logistics. if it works for other logistics why change it for carrier... oh wait i forgot you hirred Maria Sayans and you have to make people pay for injectors. Tbh, the best solution was to not introduce a new skill at all. There was zero need to. The frigate skills covers a range of DPS ships and logistics. The cruiser skills covers a range of DPS ships and logistics. Why cant the carrier skills cover DPS and logistics also with other module/drone related skills dictating its performance in its roll like every other T1 ship. The fact that there is a new skill at all makes the motication of CCP abundantly clear. I made a thread in GD a few days ago with the same point which was locked because of purile fanboys like Tippia spergng the thread and it was ultimately locked with: ISD Buldath wrote: The new Fax is a big imprvement to the game and changes the ways how capital logistics work. It is not " An archon with a new skin. " Besides, its going to be fun for the first month watching people race too 5. Going to be a good month. Also locked. You guys over at CCP have a very different idea of fun to me. Perhaps ypu are referring to the swelling of the beer budget from all that AUR money you expect to see. Hope it doesnt cost you more than you gain.
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance 202	Posted - 2016.02.09 11:40:03 - [187] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: when the citadels expansion launches How much time do we have?
Anthar Thebess 1442	Posted - 2016.02.09 11:42:47 - [188] - Quote Edward Olmops wrote: Guys. Really. Yes, some of us have 2 or 5 characters with maxed out skills for several racial capitals. But. We are flying multi-billion ISK capital ships. Into combat, for ratting or just ship spinning. We are talking about a few hundred mil or a few bil (and the latter only for those among us who spend the same amount each month on subscriptions). Just go out and make ISK for a few hours - if you are max skill (and I mean player ;-) ), you should know how. Yes I know that everyone has a Jita alt and likes haggling and free stuff, but we could really do better things than starting a forum war over nothing (like log in and fly spaceships). I am really confident that no new players or spacepoor people are hurt by the suggested transition procedure. In short: to solve this whole reimbursement issue... STOP BEING POOR! It is not about being poor ( what is recently bad thing in the eyes of CCP devs ) Its about 'pay for and train every thing twice' because new monetarization guys demand this. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
S810 Jr C.Q.B Snuffed Out 20	Posted - 2016.02.09 11:46:33 - [189] - Quote When will the dev blog be out telling up the 'set in stone' stats for the 4 faxs? We are being told to train the new skills and that we have time to train then but not being told what those skills will even do on the different fax hulls. ' oh just train the Armar one for armour' is NOT good enough! For the price of those skill books I want to know what I'll be getting.
Forlorn Wongraven Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 166	Posted - 2016.02.09 11:55:58 - [190] - Quote Sisi prices are live on TQ now. Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW
Anthar Thebess 1442	Posted - 2016.02.09 11:59:24 - [191] - Quote S810 Jr wrote: When will the dev blog be out telling up the 'set in stone' stats for the 4 faxs? We are being told to train the new skills and that we have time to train then but not being told what those skills will even do on the different fax hulls. ' oh just train the Armar one for armour' is NOT good enough! For the price of those skill books I want to know what I'll be getting. Information about Fax is not enough. They will be using reps on something so stats for supers, dreads, combat capitals. What we know about titans? They will be getting new doomsdays. Dreads? Ship and fleet hangars Motherships ? ?????? Citadels, they will also define what you will bring on field. Maybe after knowing this you will not aim into the amarr fax, but minmatar one as for some strange reason it will be only Fax capable surviving on the new battlefield. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
S810 Jr C.Q.B Snuffed Out 20	Posted - 2016.02.09 12:33:53 - [192] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: S810 Jr wrote: When will the dev blog be out telling up the 'set in stone' stats for the 4 faxs? We are being told to train the new skills and that we have time to train then but not being told what those skills will even do on the different fax hulls. ' oh just train the Armar one for armour' is NOT good enough! For the price of those skill books I want to know what I'll be getting. Information about Fax is not enough. They will be using reps on something so stats for supers, dreads, combat capitals. What we know about titans? They will be getting new doomsdays. Dreads? Ship and fleet hangars Motherships ? ?????? Citadels, they will also define what you will bring on field. Maybe after knowing this you will not aim into the amarr fax, but minmatar one as for some strange reason it will be only Fax capable surviving on the new battlefield. That is my very point. We've not been given ANY information about what the skill even does on a hull let alone how it interacts with the changes to other hulls and new structures.
Luscius Uta 191	Posted - 2016.02.09 12:48:02 - [193] - Quote I noticed that the skills for Light Fighter Squadrons and Support Fighter Squadrons have the same multiplier as the Fighter and Fighter Bomber skills. I fail to see much sense in it, since light drone skill has lower multiplier than heavy drone skill. Drifters have arrived - The End is nigh!
Theon Severasse Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 136	Posted - 2016.02.09 13:03:03 - [194] - Quote Luscius Uta wrote: I noticed that the skills for Light Fighter Squadrons and Support Fighter Squadrons have the same multiplier as the Fighter and Fighter Bomber skills. I fail to see much sense in it, since light drone skill has lower multiplier than heavy drone skill. From a game design point of view you are correct. But it makes sense when you remember that CCP are trying to milk us for our RL ISK, and hope that people will use skill extractors to speed up the training time. As has been said by several people, there should be no new skill added, and the carrier skill should be the prerequisite for both
dhunpael 52	Posted - 2016.02.09 13:04:25 - [195] - Quote If you remove a skill, can we get the cost of the skillbook refunded?
Anthar Thebess 1443	Posted - 2016.02.09 13:09:35 - [196] - Quote dhunpael wrote: If you remove a skill, can we get the cost of the skillbook refunded? no Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2579	Posted - 2016.02.09 13:18:44 - [197] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: " you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today". Which amount to **** all since CCP's rule was always if you can fly ship X today, you will be able to fly it tomorrow. If you can fly an Caldari carrier today, you will be able to fly it come citadel unless YOU CHOOSE to use the option provided to spec out of it. If your gonna cry about the "wasted" and "useless" skill for a dedicated X pilot, then remember this is the exact same way they handled to Orca skill shuffle where people were "stuck" with barge skill for example. CCP is following their usual rules quite to the letter in this case but people expect them to deviate from the usual procedure. It's not unheard of for people to be left with non optimal skills. As was told to Orca pilots back then, your skill are not useless. You just decide not to use them.
Lugh Crow-Slave 1540	Posted - 2016.02.09 13:19:17 - [198] - Quote Edward Olmops wrote: Guys. Really. Yes, some of us have 2 or 5 characters with maxed out skills for several racial capitals. But. We are flying multi-billion ISK capital ships. Into combat, for ratting or just ship spinning. We are talking about a few hundred mil or a few bil (and the latter only for those among us who spend the same amount each month on subscriptions). Just go out and make ISK for a few hours - if you are max skill (and I mean player ;-) ), you should know how. Yes I know that everyone has a Jita alt and likes haggling and free stuff, but we could really do better things than starting a forum war over nothing (like log in and fly spaceships). I am really confident that no new players or spacepoor people are hurt by the suggested transition procedure. In short: to solve this whole reimbursement issue... STOP BEING POOR! i'm not upset about the cost i'm upset that i now have to wait over 200 days to do what i can do now Citadel worm hole tax
Lugh Crow-Slave 1540	Posted - 2016.02.09 13:20:39 - [199] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: " you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today". Which amount to **** all since CCP's rule was always if you can fly ship X today, you will be able to fly it tomorrow. If you can fly an Caldari carrier today, you will be able to fly it come citadel unless YOU CHOOSE to use the option provided to spec out of it. If your gonna cry about the "wasted" and "useless" skill for a dedicated X pilot, then remember this is the exact same way they handled to Orca skill shuffle where people were "stuck" with barge skill for example. CCP is following their usual rules quite to the letter in this case but people expect them to deviate from the usual procedure. It's not unheard of for people to be left with non optimal skills. As was told to Orca pilots back then, your skill are not useless. You just decide not to use them. but the ship i can fly now will not be here when the citadel release hits its getting cut in half. one half is just keeping the same name and model Citadel worm hole tax
Anthar Thebess 1443	Posted - 2016.02.09 13:23:08 - [200] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Edward Olmops wrote: Guys. Really. Yes, some of us have 2 or 5 characters with maxed out skills for several racial capitals. But. We are flying multi-billion ISK capital ships. Into combat, for ratting or just ship spinning. We are talking about a few hundred mil or a few bil (and the latter only for those among us who spend the same amount each month on subscriptions). Just go out and make ISK for a few hours - if you are max skill (and I mean player ;-) ), you should know how. Yes I know that everyone has a Jita alt and likes haggling and free stuff, but we could really do better things than starting a forum war over nothing (like log in and fly spaceships). I am really confident that no new players or spacepoor people are hurt by the suggested transition procedure. In short: to solve this whole reimbursement issue... STOP BEING POOR! i'm not upset about the cost i'm upset that i now have to wait over 200 days to do what i can do now EVE 2016 : No poors allowed. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
ITTigerClawIK Galactic Rangers EVEolution. 477	Posted - 2016.02.09 13:58:26 - [201] - Quote just out of curiosity, are the new fighter skills correctly priced? light fighters seem to be more expensive than the actual fighters skill at 100 mill same with the support fighters at 100 mill but fighters skill is at 50 mill? was this intentional or a mistake?
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 1061	Posted - 2016.02.09 14:14:17 - [202] - Quote As already stated; should have waited until the ships are ready and changed tactical logistics reconfiguration to the force auxiliary skill. The way this was handled was ham handed and silly. You guys have done this reworking skills thing multiple times now and done it decently... why screw us over all the sudden? Not today spaghetti.
MR Spleen Instant Annihilation Northern Army 48	Posted - 2016.02.09 14:17:58 - [203] - Quote Rather than just giving a blanket refund of those skill points have it come up as a pop up asking would you like to refund these skill points or making it an option on the skill queue somehow. Also what happens to those pilots currently sat in a pos somewhere in there carriers or supers do they lose there sp?
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2579	Posted - 2016.02.09 14:22:30 - [204] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: " you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today". Which amount to **** all since CCP's rule was always if you can fly ship X today, you will be able to fly it tomorrow. If you can fly an Caldari carrier today, you will be able to fly it come citadel unless YOU CHOOSE to use the option provided to spec out of it. If your gonna cry about the "wasted" and "useless" skill for a dedicated X pilot, then remember this is the exact same way they handled to Orca skill shuffle where people were "stuck" with barge skill for example. CCP is following their usual rules quite to the letter in this case but people expect them to deviate from the usual procedure. It's not unheard of for people to be left with non optimal skills. As was told to Orca pilots back then, your skill are not useless. You just decide not to use them. but the ship i can fly now will not be here when the citadel release hits its getting cut in half. one half is just keeping the same name and model Yes it will be. If you had an Archon, you will still be able to fly an archon. If you could fly a chimera, you will still be able to fly a chimera. People could still fly their geddons after the change to a neut platform even if the way they used to use it was no longer functionnal.
Mornak Exotic Dancers Union SONS of BANE 82	Posted - 2016.02.09 14:27:45 - [205] - Quote Sexy Cakes wrote: As already stated; should have waited until the ships are ready and changed tactical logistics reconfiguration to the force auxiliary skill. The way this was handled was ham handed and silly. You guys have done this reworking skills thing multiple times now and done it decently... why screw us over all the sudden? If I had to guess, I'd say that the fact that these changes come at the same time with the new skill-extractors/injectors is not purely accidental...
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2266	Posted - 2016.02.09 14:34:46 - [206] - Quote 2.2B ISK and about eight months training to get back to where I was yesterday. Thank you very much, CCP. I hope my tears taste delicious. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1732	Posted - 2016.02.09 14:36:29 - [207] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Yes it will be. If you had an Archon, you will still be able to fly an archon. If you could fly a chimera, you will still be able to fly a chimera. People could still fly their geddons after the change to a neut platform even if the way they used to use it was no longer functionnal. What are you even arguing for? T1 ships, frigates and cruisers share dps and rep roles on the same frigate or cruiser skill. Why cant T1 carrier? Why do we need a new skill? The answer is, we dont. CCP needs the new skill to peddle its SP extractors. You cant argue that this shake up is fair and well thought out when the actual objective is to get people to part with more money than the monthly subscription that they already pay. I hope for CCPs sake that this cynical cash grab doesnt persuade too many people reevaluate their monthly outgoings. If this works out for CCP, whats to stop them from splitting roles in frigate and cruiser hulls by creating a new T1 cruiser logistics skill 'Force Aux Cruiser. Force Aux Frigate', to force people to use even more SP injectors or be left behind. Then people like you can argue that the new RR cruisers are completely different to the old ones and that we are just being brats for expecting to be able to do things we could before the change. CCP is in a position where they have to find ways to increase revenue because of incompetent business practices and unrealistic business expectations across multiple platforms and titles. Or, they could refocus on what makes them money already and not alienate the currently loyal customers with moves like this.
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 1061	Posted - 2016.02.09 14:49:17 - [208] - Quote I think at this point the best thing to do is to change the price of force auxiliary to around 100 mil. The anal punishing I can take from not getting SP to fly both and I'll chalk it up to being a masochist and playing this game in the first place. Oh right it's too late to change because you didn't announce anything until the day it came out. Not today spaghetti.
Mornak Exotic Dancers Union SONS of BANE 82	Posted - 2016.02.09 15:05:10 - [209] - Quote MR Spleen wrote: Rather than just giving a blanket refund of those skill points have it come up as a pop up asking would you like to refund these skill points or making it an option on the skill queue somehow. Also what happens to those pilots currently sat in a pos somewhere in there carriers or supers do they lose there sp? Imagine the poor pilots that took a break for a couple of months and are not subbing their accounts at the moment of "transition" for whatever reasons... You get back from a break and you've been screwed over with no f'king chance of doing what you used to do (triage) unless you invest at least 2 months of training-time plus a ton of ISK... boy would I get angry. I don't know how I would react... but I'm absolutely certain that I wouldn't just say "let me just invest 6PLEX in skill injectors to be were i used be" ...
RuriHoshino Stimulus Rote Kapelle 15	Posted - 2016.02.09 15:25:09 - [210] - Quote Remind me why FAXes were necessary at all? If you wanted to change the way fighter mechanics work then change the way fighter mechanics work, maybe add a highslot Tactical Drone Reconfiguration module that's required to use the new features so you can't do triage and Homeworld squadrons at the same time. OR if you must introduce a new ship, keep it as a class of carrier so that people who'd trained into triage could just go sit in a different hull and do the same job. Or leave the current carriers as logistics ships but remove their fighters and make the new class of carrier the tactical fighter carrier. Truly we are limited only by our imaginations! Instead we get these ugly as sin hobbling half-stations that cost a minimum 500m to sit in on top of whatever they cost to build and sell. I think I'd be less upset honestly if they at least looked good, but they just don't. CCP has done good (sometimes fantastic, even iconic) spaceship design, but it looks like they sent the art team packing and gave the job to the janitorial staff. And requiring people to pay money, real or otherwise, to continue performing in a role that they'd been fully trained into before these changes is simply punitive, for no reason at all. It smells exactly like some back-room monetization scheme, timing this to coincide with skill injectors. It might be the most senseless thing CCP has done in a long time.
Alex Harumichi Icecream Audit Office 32	Posted - 2016.02.09 15:29:30 - [211] - Quote Oh, lay off the tinfoilhat "monetization" paranoia already. The reason carriers are being split into to different ship groups has been explained endlessly (tldr: current carriers are too good and can do too many things). You don't agree with those reasons? Fine. But stop pretending CCP has some sinister agenda behind this, other than overall game balance. Now your logi platforms won't be able to do DPS at the same time. Cry me a river. I don't see my Oneiros dishing out dps, either. And yes, I have serious amounts of isk and sps invested in carriers, too. I'll adapt.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1178	Posted - 2016.02.09 15:41:12 - [212] - Quote Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly. You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2580	Posted - 2016.02.09 15:45:58 - [213] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly. You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat. No amount of refitting can make a basilisk turn into a dps platform.
Alex Harumichi Icecream Audit Office 32	Posted - 2016.02.09 15:46:49 - [214] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly. You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat. Your point is? If you fly triage carriers now and don't care about the dps, do the following: - get the new fax skill - when this goes live move all your carrier skills to fax - swap carrier for a fax Done. You're now able to fly triage again, and if you weren't using dps before, you won't need it now either. Sure, you'll need to buy one more new skill, but that's pocket change for capship pilots. No extra training time required.
D3m0n sam Shadow Incursion The Banished 52	Posted - 2016.02.09 15:47:42 - [215] - Quote Alex Harumichi wrote: Oh, lay off the tinfoilhat "monetization" paranoia already. The reason carriers are being split into to different ship groups has been explained endlessly (tldr: current carriers are too good and can do too many things). You don't agree with those reasons? Fine. But stop pretending CCP has some sinister agenda behind this, other than overall game balance. Now your logi platforms won't be able to do DPS at the same time. Cry me a river. I don't see my Oneiros dishing out dps, either. And yes, I have serious amounts of isk and sps invested in carriers, too. I'll adapt. Then explain to me why they released this information not even a day before Patch day. So even if people complained they couldn't pull it from the build. And worst thing of all it's the patch with extractors. Even if it's speculation there was defiantly a market ploy. Now the builds live and FAX SB are seeded they won't exactly refund everyone who brought the skill to fix this **. The way this was handled was a ***** shambles, hopefully there will be a dev blog to damage control this situation.
Mag's Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance 21273	Posted - 2016.02.09 15:47:47 - [216] - Quote Well one good thing has come out of this. My expected 14+ million SP pool. Rather handy to have tbh, thanks. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1733	Posted - 2016.02.09 15:48:22 - [217] - Quote Alex Harumichi wrote: Oh, lay off the tinfoilhat "monetization" paranoia already. The reason carriers are being split into to different ship groups has been explained endlessly (tldr: current carriers are too good and can do too many things). You don't agree with those reasons? Fine. But stop pretending CCP has some sinister agenda behind this, other than overall game balance. Now your logi platforms won't be able to do DPS at the same time. Cry me a river. I don't see my Oneiros dishing out dps, either. And yes, I have serious amounts of isk and sps invested in carriers, too. I'll adapt. No one is complaining about the split between dps and logistics carriers. Literally nobody. People are complaining because of the insertion of a level 14 skill that will act as a barrier to peoples ability to perform the roles that they could before. The parallel introduction of SP extractors/injectors at a time when people are looking at training 1-4 level 14 skill (+the fighter skills) to be able to perform the same dps and rep roles that they can now, is a clear cash grab. There is zero justification for a new skill. Just as there would be zero justification to introduce a T1 frigate logistics skill, or a T1 cruiser logistics skill. The racial carrier skill could have easily covered the FAX hull along with the DPS carrier hull. Drone support skills would have covered the performance of the DPS role, and Tactical logistics recon would have covered the performance of the FAX. Simple, everyone retains the ability to do what they can now. New players are no further behind the older players. The only disadvantage is to CCP, who would lose the leverage on people tempted by the SP extractors.
D3m0n sam Shadow Incursion The Banished 52	Posted - 2016.02.09 15:49:07 - [218] - Quote Alex Harumichi wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly. You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat. Your point is? If you fly triage carriers now and don't care about the dps, do the following: - get the new fax skill - when this goes live move all your carrier skills to fax - swap carrier for a fax Done. You're now able to fly triage again, and if you weren't using dps before, you won't need it now either. Sure, you'll need to buy one more new skill, but that's pocket change for capship pilots. No extra training time required. So what about people that want to do both. We now need to spend 30+ per race for FAX and then more for the drone skills.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1179	Posted - 2016.02.09 15:50:25 - [219] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly. You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat. No amount of refitting can make a basilisk turn into a dps platform. That's neither here nor there. Cruiser V lets me jump from DPS to logi. Carrier V used to too. Well, it would if I could use triage, but you take my point. The lack of specialised carrier hulls creates a demand for a new hull and changes to old one certainly, it absolutely does not create a need for new skill as well. The bottom line is there is absolutely no need for a new skill, certainly not one at that cost. Why the heck should I be able to do everything I can today with my carrier after the changes, but my logi bros need to pay out? That's bullshit and you know it.
Alex Harumichi Icecream Audit Office 32	Posted - 2016.02.09 15:57:19 - [220] - Quote D3m0n sam wrote: Alex Harumichi wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly. You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat. Your point is? If you fly triage carriers now and don't care about the dps, do the following: - get the new fax skill - when this goes live move all your carrier skills to fax - swap carrier for a fax Done. You're now able to fly triage again, and if you weren't using dps before, you won't need it now either. Sure, you'll need to buy one more new skill, but that's pocket change for capship pilots. No extra training time required. So what about people that want to do both. We now need to spend 30+ per race for FAX and then more for the drone skills. In that case you'll have to invest in new ships and new skills (so isk + training time, yes). I get that it can suck (hell, I'm in for that haul myself). But consider the options (from CCP point of view). a) Use existing Carriers skill for both Carriers and FAXes. That seems clunky and doesn't make much sense... why do Dreads need their own skill in that case? Why do the other capships? Why should these two hulls (with very different roles) use same base skill? It doesn't really fit into existing game structure, imho. b) Give everyone with existing Carrier skill the equivalent amount of Fax skill levels. While I'm sure players would love that, I'm not 100% sure that's reasonable -- it would magically generate a ton of new sp for players, and give existing carrier pilots a frankly unfair bonus compared to everyone else. I think CCP's current line (force people to choose between the new dps carriers and the new logi faxes) makes sense. You decide which carrier role is more important to you, and you get to keep that with minimal tweaking. The other one you need to invest in. Just my opinion, of course.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2582	Posted - 2016.02.09 15:59:14 - [221] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly. You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat. No amount of refitting can make a basilisk turn into a dps platform. That's neither here nor there. Cruiser V lets me jump from DPS to logi. Carrier V used to too. Well, it would if I could use triage, but you take my point. The lack of specialised carrier hulls creates a demand for a new hull and changes to old one certainly, it absolutely does not create a need for new skill as well. Not in the same ship which is the core problem with carrier and the reason they are being split. The reason why you think it does not deserve a new skill is because you are used to having both. If it all had been released like how it is supposed to end up being, people would of taken it and trained for whatever they wanted to fly.
Alex Harumichi Icecream Audit Office 32	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:00:08 - [222] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Why the heck should I be able to do everything I can today with my carrier after the changes, but my logi bros need to pay out? That's bullshit and you know it. That's not really horribly accurate. Your "logi bros" will need to pay out the cost of the new fax skill. That's it. In the general scope of things, on capship level, that's peanuts. ...and carrier pilots will need to get new skills, too (the new fighter squadrons). So all in all, both "paths" look pretty equal to me. This assumes that one can swap from carrier to fax in a somewhat 1:1 fashion isk-wise, which may not be the case in the beginning, of course
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1735	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:05:26 - [223] - Quote Alex Harumichi wrote: In that case you'll have to invest in new ships and new skills (so isk + training time, yes). I get that it can suck (hell, I'm in for that haul myself). But consider the options (from CCP point of view). a) Use existing Carriers skill for both Carriers and FAXes. That seems clunky and doesn't make much sense... why do Dreads need their own skill in that case? Why do the other capships? Why should these two hulls (with very different roles) use same base skill? It doesn't really fit into existing game structure, imho. Who does a bantam and a kestrel use the same skill? They perform 2 very different roles. Alex Harumichi wrote: b) Give everyone with existing Carrier skill the equivalent amount of Fax skill levels. While I'm sure players would love that, I'm not 100% sure that's reasonable -- it would magically generate a ton of new sp for players, and give existing carrier pilots a frankly unfair bonus compared to everyone else. No one wants more gifted SP in game creating a greater divide between the older and newer players. Thats why option A is better and only as 'clunky' as it is in the frigate and cruiser class. Alex Harumichi wrote: I think CCP's current line (force people to choose between the new dps carriers and the new logi faxes) makes sense. You decide which carrier role is more important to you, and you get to keep that with minimal tweaking. The other one you need to invest in. Just my opinion, of course. Ive already trained both roles, it doesnt make sense to make me train the same role again. I dont fly phobos at all and never will do, but that doesnt mean i wouldnt care if they just inserted another skill for me to train to be able to fly it. Your opinion is absurd.
D3m0n sam Shadow Incursion The Banished 52	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:08:45 - [224] - Quote Alex Harumichi wrote: D3m0n sam wrote: Alex Harumichi wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly. You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat. Your point is? If you fly triage carriers now and don't care about the dps, do the following: - get the new fax skill - when this goes live move all your carrier skills to fax - swap carrier for a fax Done. You're now able to fly triage again, and if you weren't using dps before, you won't need it now either. Sure, you'll need to buy one more new skill, but that's pocket change for capship pilots. No extra training time required. So what about people that want to do both. We now need to spend 30+ per race for FAX and then more for the drone skills. In that case you'll have to invest in new ships and new skills (so isk + training time, yes). I get that it can suck (hell, I'm in for that haul myself). But consider the options (from CCP point of view). a) Use existing Carriers skill for both Carriers and FAXes. That seems clunky and doesn't make much sense... why do Dreads need their own skill in that case? Why do the other capships? Why should these two hulls (with very different roles) use same base skill? It doesn't really fit into existing game structure, imho. b) Give everyone with existing Carrier skill the equivalent amount of Fax skill levels. While I'm sure players would love that, I'm not 100% sure that's reasonable -- it would magically generate a ton of new sp for players, and give existing carrier pilots a frankly unfair bonus compared to everyone else. I think CCP's current line (force people to choose between the new dps carriers and the new logi faxes) makes sense. You decide which carrier role is more important to you, and you get to keep that with minimal tweaking. The other one you need to invest in. Just my opinion, of course. A - It doesn't fit the current structure but ripping a role from a ship and then saying ** you, You now have to train a new x14 skills as well as drones skills to be able to exactly what you could do prior the patch. And worst of all to even reset your SP can will be spending 500 per racial skill book so you don't get arse **** if they decide to not release the information for the FAX & Carriers until spring. B - They have done that with Battlecruisers & Destroyers so what's different now... Extractors.. They rushed this in one day before the patch, because even if people complained they couldn't take it out the build. And they can't change it now as refunding the FAX & Drone SB would be a nightmare for them.
Cearain Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis 1451	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:08:50 - [225] - Quote I understand the reason for this change is because people who trained into carriers are having what they trained into completely changed. And the new ship that did a carrier's work is now the force aux. Since you are completely changing what carrier skill points are good for it makes sense you are allowing people to respec. But why do I need Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration in order to respec my carrier skillpoints? Those skill points are still wasted for what I wanted to use them for. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17449	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:13:45 - [226] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: " you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today". Which amount to ** all since CCP's rule was always if you can fly ship X today, you will be able to fly it tomorrow. If you can fly an Caldari carrier today, you will be able to fly it come citadel unless YOU CHOOSE to use the option provided to spec out of it. If your gonna cry about the "wasted" and "useless" skill for a dedicated X pilot, then remember this is the exact same way they handled to Orca skill shuffle where people were "stuck" with barge skill for example. CCP is following their usual rules quite to the letter in this case but people expect them to deviate from the usual procedure. It's not unheard of for people to be left with non optimal skills. As was told to Orca pilots back then, your skill are not useless. You just decide not to use them. but the ship i can fly now will not be here when the citadel release hits its getting cut in half. one half is just keeping the same name and model Yes it will be. If you had an Archon, you will still be able to fly an archon. If you could fly a chimera, you will still be able to fly a chimera. People could still fly their geddons after the change to a neut platform even if the way they used to use it was no longer functionnal. Don't be obtuse. Just because to Chimera name is following the Fighter role doesn't mean the the triage/rep role wasn't an equally valid and important reason to train the hulls in the first place. Stop being a ** and try and engage with the actual issue. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17449	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:15:52 - [227] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly. You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat. No amount of refitting can make a basilisk turn into a dps platform. That's neither here nor there. Cruiser V lets me jump from DPS to logi. Carrier V used to too. Well, it would if I could use triage, but you take my point. The lack of specialised carrier hulls creates a demand for a new hull and changes to old one certainly, it absolutely does not create a need for new skill as well. Not in the same ship which is the core problem with carrier and the reason they are being split. The reason why you think it does not deserve a new skill is because you are used to having both. If it all had been released like how it is supposed to end up being, people would of taken it and trained for whatever they wanted to fly. Then why do both skills needed to be rank 14? "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1736	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:16:01 - [228] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly. You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat. No amount of refitting can make a basilisk turn into a dps platform. That's neither here nor there. Cruiser V lets me jump from DPS to logi. Carrier V used to too. Well, it would if I could use triage, but you take my point. The lack of specialised carrier hulls creates a demand for a new hull and changes to old one certainly, it absolutely does not create a need for new skill as well. Not in the same ship which is the core problem with carrier and the reason they are being split. The reason why you think it does not deserve a new skill is because you are used to having both. If it all had been released like how it is supposed to end up being, people would of taken it and trained for whatever they wanted to fly. You can actually fit guns to a T2 logistics. And while not effective ive seen guardian pairs do reasonably well in roams. But you are comparing apples to oranges. Carriers are a T1 ship. Compare them to other T1 ships like frigates and cruisers that have both combat and rep roles under one skill.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 250	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:18:03 - [229] - Quote Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration should split to be racial and be a 14x skill that is renamed to race force auxiliary.
ApolloF117 HUN Angels and Demons Inc. Mordus Angels 24	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:24:11 - [230] - Quote now i would like to switch back the old forum where i could see if devs are even reading the topic, now its looks like they made a decision in the last minute and screw you all, since 2015 i have the strange feeling that CCP Games are cooparating with WG business managers
Alex Harumichi Icecream Audit Office 32	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:24:53 - [231] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: You would appear to be CCPs idea new demographic. That would be "very old" demographic, having played this game (with same character) since 2004 I've seen pretty much all things in the game change, then change again, then change again. I've usually (though not always) agreed with CCP's reasons for doing the changes. I don't see anything different this time around, either, tbh. Things change, and balancing is sometimes a bit painful. Sure, some things here could (and maybe should) be tweaked. For example, why require fax skill of the same race as carrier? In fact, why not just offer reimbursement option for all carrier skill, period? That way people could pick what fax they want to go for (if any). Now, since you need to have same-skill fax skill, you risk that one being inferior and potentially needing to buy another 500mil skill to get the one you want. That sort of sucks. Also, offering reimbursement of fighter / fighter bomber skills might make sense, since pure-triage pilots won't now have any use for that.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1182	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:25:42 - [232] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly. You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat. No amount of refitting can make a basilisk turn into a dps platform. That's neither here nor there. Cruiser V lets me jump from DPS to logi. Carrier V used to too. Well, it would if I could use triage, but you take my point. The lack of specialised carrier hulls creates a demand for a new hull and changes to old one certainly, it absolutely does not create a need for new skill as well. Not in the same ship which is the core problem with carrier and the reason they are being split. The reason why you think it does not deserve a new skill is because you are used to having both. If it all had been released like how it is supposed to end up being, people would of taken it and trained for whatever they wanted to fly. You appear to be being willfully obtuse. Explain why a new hull and rebalance of texting old is insufficient to correct them.
Alex Harumichi Icecream Audit Office 32	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:28:05 - [233] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration should split to be racial and be a 14x skill that is renamed to race force auxiliary. Not a bad idea as such, but then we have the imbalance with dreads again. They need different skills for ship hull and for siege module... so those should probably be changed the same way. But that opens up another skill reimbursement can of worms, since dread skill and siege skill are of different ranks and people have them trained to different levels. It could become messy.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2582	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:31:23 - [234] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly. You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat. No amount of refitting can make a basilisk turn into a dps platform. That's neither here nor there. Cruiser V lets me jump from DPS to logi. Carrier V used to too. Well, it would if I could use triage, but you take my point. The lack of specialised carrier hulls creates a demand for a new hull and changes to old one certainly, it absolutely does not create a need for new skill as well. Not in the same ship which is the core problem with carrier and the reason they are being split. The reason why you think it does not deserve a new skill is because you are used to having both. If it all had been released like how it is supposed to end up being, people would of taken it and trained for whatever they wanted to fly. Then why do both skills needed to be rank 14? I don't know why they make it stay a rank 14 and why the new one is a rank 14. All I know is that they followed their very own rules to the letter and people are asking for them to stray away from those rules. Many of those people asking CCP to change the ususal rules are also the type to post stuff like HTFU or shitting on proposal to make the game less of a clusterfuck because "EVE is suppsoed to be hard" and other similar reasons. I have no issue with people being mad about the rank of the skill being 14 while the ship is losing some major options but carrier will still be driven by the carrier skill and CCP basicaly decided FAX would not be a carrier class vessel which mean they need a skill. They obvioulsy don't want to give it out for free in term of SP so any change in the rank of the skill would probably be faced with SP deletion or sunk in new pre-req for example.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1736	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:32:08 - [235] - Quote Alex Harumichi wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: You would appear to be CCPs idea new demographic. That would be "very old" demographic, having played this game (with same character) since 2004 I've seen pretty much all things in the game change, then change again, then change again. I've usually (though not always) agreed with CCP's reasons for doing the changes. I don't see anything different this time around, either, tbh. Things change, and balancing is sometimes a bit painful. Sure, some things here could (and maybe should) be tweaked. For example, why require fax skill of the same race as carrier? In fact, why not just offer reimbursement option for all carrier skill, period? That way people could pick what fax they want to go for (if any). Now, since you need to have same-skill fax skill, you risk that one being inferior and potentially needing to buy another 500mil skill to get the one you want. That sort of sucks. Also, offering reimbursement of fighter / fighter bomber skills might make sense, since pure-triage pilots won't now have any use for that. Why not just base the FAX and DPS carrier on the same skill, since they both came from ships under that skill? As i have said, the only reason they dont follow the same rules as frigs and cruisers is that CCP needs a new SP sink to drive sales of SP injectors.
D3m0n sam Shadow Incursion The Banished 53	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:32:43 - [236] - Quote Alex Harumichi wrote: Lady Rift wrote: Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration should split to be racial and be a 14x skill that is renamed to race force auxiliary. Not a bad idea as such, but then we have the imbalance with dreads again. They need different skills for ship hull and for siege module... so those should probably be changed the same way. But that opens up another skill reimbursement can of worms, since dread skill and siege skill and of different ranks and people have them trained to different levels. It could become messy. Why not just use a module for putting carrier into a damage mode like dreads but amplifies drone damage. Doesn't require a new ship just a new skill which can be calculated from TLC.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 250	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:33:42 - [237] - Quote Alex Harumichi wrote: Lady Rift wrote: Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration should split to be racial and be a 14x skill that is renamed to race force auxiliary. Not a bad idea as such, but then we have the imbalance with dreads again. They need different skills for ship hull and for siege module... so those should probably be changed the same way. But that opens up another skill reimbursement can of worms, since dread skill and siege skill and of different ranks and people have them trained to different levels. It could become messy. dreads siege can be changed when they add a new dread that doesn't have to siege.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2582	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:33:54 - [238] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: You appear to be being willfully obtuse. Explain why a new hull and rebalance of texting old is insufficient to correct them. I don't know the real answer but if I have to make a guess on why they did it, I'd say it's because they want each capital hull your train for to be a meaningful choice with the associated time sink.
Alex Harumichi Icecream Audit Office 32	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:35:15 - [239] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Why not just base the FAX and DPS carrier on the same skill, since they both came from ships under that skill? As i have said, the only reason they dont follow the same rules as frigs and cruisers is that CCP needs a new SP sink to drive sales of SP injectors. Well, I'd argue that the reason is that currently, all existing different capital ship types have their own separate skills. Suddenly having carrier and fax share the same skill would, to me, be weird. And it would not follow the convention the other capships have.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1736	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:39:42 - [240] - Quote Alex Harumichi wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Why not just base the FAX and DPS carrier on the same skill, since they both came from ships under that skill? As i have said, the only reason they dont follow the same rules as frigs and cruisers is that CCP needs a new SP sink to drive sales of SP injectors. Well, I'd argue that the reason is that currently, all existing different capital ship types have their own separate skills. Suddenly having carrier and fax share the same skill would, to me, be weird. And it would not follow the convention the other capships have. You are wrong though, mothers and carriers run on essentially the same skills despite being different classes. And why would it be weird having dps carriers and logi carriers on the same skill? Its weird to me that it would be weird to you, since thats how its been since they were introduced. Perhaps we have different understandings of the word 'weird' ? Also, we suddenly had frig logi and frig DPS sharing the same skill. We suddenly had cruiser logi and cruiser DPS sharing the same skill. Doesnt seem to have ever presented a problem to anyone, ever. And no one has ever said its 'weird'.
Hound Halfhand Repo Industries 24	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:44:42 - [241] - Quote The tears are so delicious I'm skipping dessert tonight.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1182	Posted - 2016.02.09 16:49:27 - [242] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: You appear to be being willfully obtuse. Explain why a new hull and rebalance of texting old is insufficient to correct them. I don't know the real answer but if I have to make a guess on why they did it, I'd say it's because they want each capital hull your train for to be a meaningful choice with the associated time sink. And yet it's ill thought out as the x14 and costs are because it also was for supers. Not so much with these.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2583	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:00:53 - [243] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: You appear to be being willfully obtuse. Explain why a new hull and rebalance of texting old is insufficient to correct them. I don't know the real answer but if I have to make a guess on why they did it, I'd say it's because they want each capital hull your train for to be a meaningful choice with the associated time sink. And yet it's ill thought out as the x14 and costs are because it also was for supers. Not so much with these. I'm pretty sure they made it 14x because they don't want people to have overflowing SP after re-speccing into FAX from carrier. Unless everyone speccing into FAX is willing to burn those SP? It's not gonna happen and I already hear the 'I trained those SP!!!" warcry...
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1737	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:03:48 - [244] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: You appear to be being willfully obtuse. Explain why a new hull and rebalance of texting old is insufficient to correct them. I don't know the real answer but if I have to make a guess on why they did it, I'd say it's because they want each capital hull your train for to be a meaningful choice with the associated time sink. And yet it's ill thought out as the x14 and costs are because it also was for supers. Not so much with these. I'm pretty sure they made it 14x because they don't want people to have overflowing SP after re-speccing into FAX from carrier. Unless everyone speccing into FAX is willing to burn those SP? It's not gonna happen and I already hear the 'I trained those SP!!!" warcry... Nope, they did it as leverage for their new SP extractor. Just because you dont believe CCP could be that cynical doesnt change the fact they are. I present monocle-gate as all the evidence i need. With the CEO of CCP calling eve subscribers a 'cash cow', as if any further evidence was needed.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2583	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:05:41 - [245] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: I'm pretty sure they made it 14x because they don't want people to have overflowing SP after re-speccing into FAX from carrier. Unless everyone speccing into FAX is willing to burn those SP? It's not gonna happen and I already hear the 'I trained those SP!!!" warcry... Nope, they did it as leverage for their new SP extractor. Just because you dont believe CCP could be that cynical doesnt change the fact they are. I present monocle-gate as all the evidence i need. With the CEO of CCP calling eve subscribers a 'cash cow', as if any further evidence was needed. Why didn't they make it 16x then if it's only to milk the SP trade?
D3m0n sam Shadow Incursion The Banished 53	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:08:19 - [246] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: You appear to be being willfully obtuse. Explain why a new hull and rebalance of texting old is insufficient to correct them. I don't know the real answer but if I have to make a guess on why they did it, I'd say it's because they want each capital hull your train for to be a meaningful choice with the associated time sink. And yet it's ill thought out as the x14 and costs are because it also was for supers. Not so much with these. I'm pretty sure they made it 14x because they don't want people to have overflowing SP after re-speccing into FAX from carrier. Unless everyone speccing into FAX is willing to burn those SP? It's not gonna happen and I already hear the 'I trained those SP!!!" warcry... Easier way around. How about mirror the skills from Carrier to FAX, No floating SP whatsoever Oh wait i forgot CCP need a way to market there extractor's
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1737	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:08:43 - [247] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Why didn't they make it 16x then if it's only to milk the SP trade? Ill answer that as though its a serious question and not just senseless argumentation. Why did they introduce a new skill at all when all other T1 ship classes that have DPS and RR roles are covered under one skill? As per racial frigate and racial cruiser skills.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2583	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:12:04 - [248] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Why didn't they make it 16x then if it's only to milk the SP trade? Ill answer that as though its a serious question and not just senseless argumentation. Why did they introduce a new skill at all when all other T1 ship classes that have DPS and RR roles are covered under one skill? As per racial frigate and racial cruiser skills. Capital exception is my guess.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1737	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:14:07 - [249] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Capital exception is my guess. Is that your final answer? Seems vacuous and arbitrary at best. Does that seem like a good reason for you? Does it seem more likely than CCP trying to leverage their SP extractors on older players?
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 1061	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:20:41 - [250] - Quote Also what about people who aren't subbed during this entire ordeal? They come back to the game later and plug force aux skills after the patch and what happens to tactical logistics reconfiguration? Again, maybe if you told us more than a day in advance we could have hashed out some of this stuff but I guess it's too late now. Not today spaghetti.
D3m0n sam Shadow Incursion The Banished 53	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:20:42 - [251] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Capital exception is my guess. Is that your final answer? Seems vacuous and arbitrary at best. Does that seem like a good reason for you? How would you justify a 'capital exception' policy? Does it seem more likely than CCP trying to leverage their SP extractors on older players? Rather than playing a bad devils advocate why dont you stick to what you know? Sitting at 117m SP the extractor are pointless for me. If i would actually get a decent amount of SP for the price of them then they may be worth it. Currently it just like throwing money away. Already un-subbed my accounts because of the way this crap was handled.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2583	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:28:28 - [252] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Capital exception is my guess. Is that your final answer? Seems vacuous and arbitrary at best. Does that seem like a good reason for you? How would you justify a 'capital exception' policy? Would you support a 'frig exception' or 'cruiser exception' policy if they decide to split DPS and RR roles in those classes? Does it seem more likely than CCP trying to leverage their SP extractors on older players? Rather than playing a bad devils advocate why dont you stick to what you know? I personally would not care if they split the cruiser and frigate skills but how many people share my vision this I cannot know. All I can tell is capitals are riddled with exceptions so one more on top of it is not that much of a stretch. Oh and rather than playing the conspiracy alarmist, how about you stick to what you know? Oh right, it's a forum and we both can express our opinion...
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1738	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:31:15 - [253] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: I personally would not care if they split the cruiser and frigate skills but how many people share my vision this I cannot know. All I can tell is capitals are riddled with exceptions so one more on top of it is not that much of a stretch. Please elaborate on these exceptions. Im sure if they are 'riddled' with undesirable exceptions you can name a few. Because seems to me, with regards to other T1 ship classes, CCP just introduced one by splitting up the DPS and RR roles and threw a lot of players under the bus in doing so. Luckily, we dont have to worry because we can just spend real life money to rectify this with a convenient new item.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2583	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:38:01 - [254] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: I personally would not care if they split the cruiser and frigate skills but how many people share my vision this I cannot know. All I can tell is capitals are riddled with exceptions so one more on top of it is not that much of a stretch. Please elaborate on these exceptions. Because seems to me, with regards to other T1 ship classes, CCP just introduced one by splitting up the DPS and RR roles. Can't enter high sec, have different effect when a HIC focused point is on them like gate jumping, some of them can't dock while others can, cannot be built in the same facility, T1 hulls not build out of minerals,... Adding one of top of that for logistic ship have their one separate racial skill is not all that much of a stretch.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1738	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:44:57 - [255] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Can't enter high sec, have different effect when a HIC focused point is on them like gate jumping, some of them can't dock while others can, cannot be built in the same facility, T1 hulls not build out of minerals,... Adding one of top of that for logistic ship have their one separate racial skill is not all that much of a stretch. Those are balancing issues. Are you suggesting that any of those should also be 'fixed'? Also, as i have said, splitting up DPS and RR roles inside a class of ship is a NEW and fairly unique exception. It used to be based on the same ship skill, and in other T1 ships it is still based on the same ship skill. Try again.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2583	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:50:06 - [256] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Can't enter high sec, have different effect when a HIC focused point is on them like gate jumping, some of them can't dock while others can, cannot be built in the same facility, T1 hulls not build out of minerals,... Adding one of top of that for logistic ship have their one separate racial skill is not all that much of a stretch. Those are balancing issues. Are you suggesting that any of those should also be 'fixed'? Also, as i have said, splitting up DPS and RR roles inside a class of ship is a NEW and fairly unique exception. It used to be based on the same ship skill, and in other T1 ships it is still based on the same ship skill. Try again. The fact that exceptions were made for balance does not render them moot. It shows that making special rules for capital is not something new at all and is in fact something that has been accepted by the player base for a long time. Every single exceptions for capitals started as "new" and "fairly unique".
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1738	Posted - 2016.02.09 17:57:00 - [257] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: The fact that exceptions were made for balance does not render them moot. It shows that making special rules for capital is not something new at all and is in fact something that has been accepted by the player base for a long time. Every single exceptions for capitals started as "new" and "fairly unique". It actually does render them mute. By definition. If you chose to use the word exception to describe both desirable and undesirable aspects of a design then the word becomes meaningless. Why arnt you arguing for caps in high sec etc? The balance 'exceptions' you listed are desirable and there for obvious reasons. The splitting of RR and DPS does not FIX a previously existing 'exception' it creates a new one. Nor does it provide any balancing effect like the other 'exceptions' you listed. All it accomplishes is the creation of an arbitrary and unnecessary SP gulf from where we are now to where we will be come patch day. CCP has the solution to this. Its called money. To buy the plex to pay the 48 billion isk id need to cover the skill injectors (if i didnt already have the isk) to get to where i am now capability-wise, would be 37 plexes in my case, or somewhere in the region of 600GBP. Alternatively, i could train 5 months. Neither of these scenarios consider the new fighter skills. Theyre extra. You have chosen a very hard path playing devils advocate for this change, so props for that.
Tiberian Deci Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 158	Posted - 2016.02.09 18:21:18 - [258] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: I mean, be honest, if they added a new skill required for each ships to be flown: 14x, at 500m a book you'd be utterly furious. Let's call it "$RACE flight authorization skills" and without it, you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today. Are you seriously telling me you'd be ok with that? So, are you surprised the carrier guys are more than a little pissed? Because I'm not. You are trying to compare apples & oranges here though. You are presenting a case where I couldn't fly the hulls I could fly today, CCP are presenting a case where they have removed a role from a ship because it was too powerful with it's multirole ability and then created a new ship to cover that role because it's an important role in the overall meta. Yes, it's a nerf, but it was an obviously needed nerf to the carrier, and those people getting upset over not getting both skills free are mainly getting upset over false pretences and bad examples that don't actually match what is really going on. I'm neutral on the overall skill question, but when people are raging and abusing CCP over false pretences then I'm going to call them out on their behaviour. Especially when it's not old characters getting the shaft, because newbro's have to spend exactly the same time training they will. It's newbro's who get the shaft if old characters get both skills for free, not the other way around. You're dumb please quit posting
Alex Harumichi Icecream Audit Office 32	Posted - 2016.02.09 19:01:46 - [259] - Quote Hound Halfhand wrote: The tears are so delicious I'm skipping dessert tonight. Looking at some of the whining here, I'm with this guy. I've said my piece Already training fax skill, light fighter and support fighters as we speak, so I'm all set. As a pilot with Carrier V and triage V, I'm pretty much ok with all this. And since my tinfoil hat is on the blink today, I'll just skip the "this is an evil plot from CCP just to grab some more cash from us!!11!11!!!" stupidity and get on with waiting for the actual fax / carrier / dread new stats. Which I am interested in. The new carrier tactical battlemap thingy looks cool.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1742	Posted - 2016.02.09 19:06:56 - [260] - Quote Alex Harumichi wrote: Hound Halfhand wrote: The tears are so delicious I'm skipping dessert tonight. Looking at some of the whining here, I'm with this guy. I've said my piece Already training fax skill, light fighter and support fighters as we speak, so I'm all set. As a pilot with Carrier V and triage V, I'm pretty much ok with all this. And since my tinfoil hat is on the blink today, I'll just skip the "this is an evil plot from CCP just to grab some more cash from us!!11!11!!!" stupidity and get on with waiting for the actual fax / carrier / dread new stats. Which I am interested in. The new carrier tactical battlemap thingy looks cool. 57 kills in 11 years. Does it really matter what skills you have trained? TBH, im more annoyed at the idea that CCP make the new camera compulsory in 30 days while its in a state thats no where near as practical as the current one. But that doesnt change the fact that this whole skill thing could have been seamless if it wernt for a cash grab.
Cearain Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis 1452	Posted - 2016.02.09 19:43:27 - [261] - Quote It seems to me that ccp has not really thought this through very well on many levels. I still do not understand why I need to have Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration in order to get my carrier sp refunded. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1742	Posted - 2016.02.09 20:03:50 - [262] - Quote Cearain wrote: It seems to me that ccp has not really thought this through very well on many levels. I still do not understand why I need to have Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration in order to get my carrier sp refunded. I think they were given an objective to encourage use of skill injectors. Unfortunately, that requires ignoring the only two fit for purpose solutions of; - Use existing racial carrier skill and support skills, since no new role was being created, rather just separated. - Refunding all cap related skills to be reallocated. Im sure the devs would have gone with one of the reasonable options if the boot from higher up was not on their necks.
Ashterothi Aideron Robotics 350	Posted - 2016.02.09 20:10:45 - [263] - Quote I do my best to think of things complexly, so have been trying to think of things from the other point of view, and this is what I have come up with. As was stated before, when new ships with new capabilities are introduced, those ships generally come with new skills. The time that SP has been split is basically when little if anything new was added, but the skill was split for clarification. Regardless of if the FAX will be a "new ship" or if it is just a "piece" of what we now know of as carriers, the carriers themselves are going to be totally new. However you slice it, you are gaining new capabilities, and CCP is allowing you to pretrain now so you have them both if you so choose, but the bottom line is there will be an additional ship class, and an additional role, even if that role is going to carriers. Furthermore, this stands as the best time in history for a high SP pilot to bank a _ton_ of unallocated SP. The change in skill extractors didn't only make SP monetarily valuable, but made unallocated SP more normal. Whereas before handing you 2+ months of unallocated SP would have been considered too powerful, now it isn't so bad. My plan is to sink the next 2 months into as efficient of carrier training as I possibly can, and buy the FAX skills to compensate. Then I will have the free SP to do _whatever_ I want come Citadels. tl;dr It isn't the same as before, but in some ways it is better. Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1742	Posted - 2016.02.09 20:23:54 - [264] - Quote We can do triage with one ship and launch fighters with the other. What new ability are we gaining? Please clarify how is it better when i can do both of those things now, but will have to train to do both of those things in the future.
Ashterothi Aideron Robotics 350	Posted - 2016.02.09 20:26:31 - [265] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: We can do triage with one ship and launch fighters with the other. What new ability are we gaining? The entire carrier game is changing as far as it looks. You could abstract it far enough and say "you do damage and rep things, what new thing are they adding" if you wish, or you can see it as an unique opportunity to gain a ton of unallocated SP without having to pay diminishing returns. Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
D3m0n sam Shadow Incursion The Banished 55	Posted - 2016.02.09 20:35:49 - [266] - Quote Ashterothi wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: We can do triage with one ship and launch fighters with the other. What new ability are we gaining? The entire carrier game is changing as far as it looks. You could abstract it far enough and say "you do damage and rep things, what new thing are they adding" if you wish, or you can see it as an unique opportunity to gain a ton of unallocated SP without having to pay diminishing returns. We already trained to both. Why should we have to train it again?
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1742	Posted - 2016.02.09 20:41:10 - [267] - Quote Ashterothi wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: We can do triage with one ship and launch fighters with the other. What new ability are we gaining? The entire carrier game is changing as far as it looks. You could abstract it far enough and say "you do damage and rep things, what new thing are they adding" if you wish, or you can see it as an unique opportunity to gain a ton of unallocated SP without having to pay diminishing returns. What on earth are you talking about?!? Thats the dumbest post in the thread yet. Why would i want a bunch of unallocated SP?!? Everything needs training, doesnt matter where the SP comes from. I actually want to be able to fly combat carriers and logistics carriers ASAP. Probably at least 2 races. I can do that now, it didnt happen by accident. The problem is that both carriers could happily function under the same skill using support skills like a new drone control siege mod for combat duties and the triage module for RR duty. There is always a reason CCP chooses an extremely convoluted path. Usually its to do with mechanics that they dont want people abusing, like jump fatigue, or the new null sov. In this case, there was a perfectly reasonable, abuse free solution, that did not involve giving away free SP and did not involve alienating customers by forcing months of training on them. This choice is even in line with how other T1 ship skills work for other classes. But they chose a very convoluted route, to encourage the use of SP injectors.
Ashterothi Aideron Robotics 350	Posted - 2016.02.09 20:42:20 - [268] - Quote D3m0n sam wrote: Ashterothi wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: We can do triage with one ship and launch fighters with the other. What new ability are we gaining? The entire carrier game is changing as far as it looks. You could abstract it far enough and say "you do damage and rep things, what new thing are they adding" if you wish, or you can see it as an unique opportunity to gain a ton of unallocated SP without having to pay diminishing returns. We already trained to both. Why should we have to train it again? As you can read in the history, I myself was banging on that drum, however you cannot ignore the fact that this is additionally a unique opportunity for those who can capitalize on it (get it?). Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1742	Posted - 2016.02.09 20:44:34 - [269] - Quote Ashterothi wrote: D3m0n sam wrote: Ashterothi wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: We can do triage with one ship and launch fighters with the other. What new ability are we gaining? The entire carrier game is changing as far as it looks. You could abstract it far enough and say "you do damage and rep things, what new thing are they adding" if you wish, or you can see it as an unique opportunity to gain a ton of unallocated SP without having to pay diminishing returns. We already trained to both. Why should we have to train it again? As you can read in the history, I myself was banging on that drum, however you cannot ignore the fact that this is additionally a unique opportunity for those who can capitalize on it (get it?). Listen dude, i can make a billion isk in 3 hours. Perhaps you need to sell SP to make isk, but the rest of us use SP to fly space submarines.
Ashterothi Aideron Robotics 350	Posted - 2016.02.09 20:49:55 - [270] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Ashterothi wrote: D3m0n sam wrote: Ashterothi wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: We can do triage with one ship and launch fighters with the other. What new ability are we gaining? The entire carrier game is changing as far as it looks. You could abstract it far enough and say "you do damage and rep things, what new thing are they adding" if you wish, or you can see it as an unique opportunity to gain a ton of unallocated SP without having to pay diminishing returns. We already trained to both. Why should we have to train it again? As you can read in the history, I myself was banging on that drum, however you cannot ignore the fact that this is additionally a unique opportunity for those who can capitalize on it (get it?). Listen dude, i can make a billion isk in 3 hours. Perhaps you need to sell SP to make isk, but the rest of us use SP to fly space submarines. The point I am trying to make is that it is clear that the decision making process is changing for CCP, and the new market model is likely to blame, but whereas Free SP is more troublesome, unallocated SP is actually more acceptable in the new paradigm. While we don't get the free SP, we do get the unique opportunity to load up on unallocated SP without having to pay terrible diminishing returns on injectors. It may not be best for you, I am only speaking for myself. Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1742	Posted - 2016.02.09 20:59:14 - [271] - Quote My solution did not involve free SP or reimbursed SP. It is by far the simplest option they could have chosen and follows a model already in place for frigate and cruiser DPS/Logi. They could have just released the new cap and rejigged the stats on the existing caps and job done. All based on the current carrier skill. No one is further ahead or behind where they were before. Everyone is happy that slow cats are dead. TBH, im more against free SP than what they did because i think creating SP hills for only newer players to climb is bad for the game. But in the same respect, creating an SP hill for EVERYONE to climb even though many were already over that hill is absurd. This leads to speculation about the justification for such changes, which in this case is a clear cash grab. And your irreverent point about just having to accept CCPs current trend in decision making, if this was a CCP blog i would accept that. But this is a forum, so we are allowed to discuss and decide if we aret going to personally tolerate changes in CCPs decision making style.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2583	Posted - 2016.02.09 21:30:56 - [272] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: My solution did not involve free SP or reimbursed SP. It is by far the simplest option they could have chosen and follows a model already in place for frigate and cruiser DPS/Logi. Except from what we read, their GOAL also include requiring much more SP investment to be able to do RR and DPS so your solution brings them no closer at all to that for all existing pilots and that is probably why they didn't go that way. It's pretty obvious they want you to have to burn more SP into it no matter how you acquire those SP so any solution that runs around that principle is defacto not good for THEM. Your solution by itself is good IF the goal was just to make a clean transition from the current state to new ship existing and no one loosing any potential ROLES in their effective capability. If they wanted that, they would of went with something like you are proposing or close to it. Your proposal is sadly not effective for the goal THEY have. If you get closer with your solution to your own goal than what they propose, your solution probably just gives too much for their plan. It does not take them to THEIR end goal. If you propose any way where you get both half of the pie directly, you are playing outside of their defined limits. If it's not the proposed one, it will be another but at the end of the day, I'm pretty sure their goal is to make you do a though choice. If history of other RR ship is to show something, the RR one will pretty much require to be trained to V to be really effective while the DPS one will work at lower skill level with much lesser sacrifice on the fit to make it work.
Cearain Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis 1452	Posted - 2016.02.09 21:53:49 - [273] - Quote Ashterothi wrote: D3m0n sam wrote: Ashterothi wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: We can do triage with one ship and launch fighters with the other. What new ability are we gaining? The entire carrier game is changing as far as it looks. You could abstract it far enough and say "you do damage and rep things, what new thing are they adding" if you wish, or you can see it as an unique opportunity to gain a ton of unallocated SP without having to pay diminishing returns. We already trained to both. Why should we have to train it again? As you can read in the history, I myself was banging on that drum, however you cannot ignore the fact that this is additionally a unique opportunity for those who can capitalize on it (get it?). I am not sure what you mean capitalize on what? I wanted to be able to rep people with a capital ship. So I trained a level 14 skill which only benefits a single ship. Now they are taking away that role of that single ship I trained and replacing it with who knows what. Now they say I can reassign those points, but only if I train another skill, Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, which has a prereq or logistics cruisers 5 that I have not trained. Why do I have to do this? Isn't my time spent training carriers wasted just as much whether I train this other skill now or not? Now if I don't want all those carrier points to go to waste I need to train this other long skill group before citadel hits - whenever that is. If I don't, that level 14 skill goes to waste. Now maybe it wont go to waste because carriers will be awesome. But really its not looking to good for that. Carriers are now going to start doing more damage. Will they do more damage than dreads which are a capital designed to do damage? Probably not. They will probably do less. And honestly it looks like ccp is going to nerf all the dreads and carriers so that they will be equivalent to the current ships only if you fit expensive capital modules to them. CCP should just accept that they are massively changing the game where allot of players have invested allot of money and time and try to be accommodating. They said they would take these concerns into account when they announced the cap changes at eve vegas. This solution is not really cutting it. They should dig deeper and come up with something that is more fair to players. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2965	Posted - 2016.02.09 22:08:51 - [274] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: My solution did not involve free SP or reimbursed SP. It is by far the simplest option they could have chosen and follows a model already in place for frigate and cruiser DPS/Logi. They could have just released the new cap and rejigged the stats on the existing caps and job done. All based on the current carrier skill. No one is further ahead or behind where they were before. Everyone is happy that slow cats are dead. TBH, im more against free SP than what they did because i think creating SP hills for only newer players to climb is bad for the game. But in the same respect, creating an SP hill for EVERYONE to climb even though many were already over that hill is absurd. This leads to speculation about the justification for such changes, which in this case is a clear cash grab. And your irreverent point about just having to accept CCPs current trend in decision making, if this was a CCP blog i would accept that. But this is a forum, so we are allowed to discuss and decide if we aret going to personally tolerate changes in CCPs decision making style. Capitals do not follow the T1 subcap progression patterns and never have. And the change in the decision making style is to allow you to move the SP. If you want CCP to stick to their old decision making style then you have to train the FAX skills and get no reallocation of SP at all, because that was their old style. It's not a cash grab, it's just rampant paranoia making you feel that way. It's just a standard nerf to an OP ship.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1743	Posted - 2016.02.09 22:09:50 - [275] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: My solution did not involve free SP or reimbursed SP. It is by far the simplest option they could have chosen and follows a model already in place for frigate and cruiser DPS/Logi. Except from what we read, their GOAL also include requiring much more SP investment to be able to do RR and DPS I dont think anyone disputes that. Question is why. Answer is to peddle SP injectors. Is that acceptable? If we accept it now will that kind of behavior occur elsewhere? Whats to stop CCP doing this to all ship roles?
Rek Seven Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 2145	Posted - 2016.02.09 22:21:39 - [276] - Quote Why even add a new skill for the force auxiliaries? Why not just let the carrier skill count for both? I really don't see why I should have to buy another skill book to do something in the future that I can already do now. I'm hoping that I will be able to petition to get the new skill book and the my sp The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Justin Cody Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 345	Posted - 2016.02.09 22:44:00 - [277] - Quote D3m0n sam wrote: Ashterothi wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: We can do triage with one ship and launch fighters with the other. What new ability are we gaining? The entire carrier game is changing as far as it looks. You could abstract it far enough and say "you do damage and rep things, what new thing are they adding" if you wish, or you can see it as an unique opportunity to gain a ton of unallocated SP without having to pay diminishing returns. We already trained to both. Why should we have to train it again? Because CCP wants cash for aurum so you buy skill injectors all the time. Duhh
Justin Cody Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 345	Posted - 2016.02.09 22:45:00 - [278] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Why even add a new skill for the force auxiliaries? Why not just let the carrier skill count for both? I really don't see why I should have to buy another skill book to do something in the future that I can already do now. I'm hoping that I will be able to petition to get the new skill book and my sp I'm getting ready for the day when CCP makes me train a separate skill for a Claymore and Sleipnir just to sit in it.
Neuntausend GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 612	Posted - 2016.02.09 22:57:07 - [279] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: I dont think anyone disputes that. Question is why? I dont think its because they thought 25 years of total skills to train was insufficient. The answer is to peddle SP injectors. Well, the timing is perfect in that regard, so this line of reasoning probably plays a role. But it does make sense to split it up, even beyond pushing SP trading in our faces. They explained it rather well: Carriers are real multitalents - they can deal damage through fighters, they can repair, they can boost, they have a refitting service and a ship hangar. Therefore it's by far the superior choice for most people for their "first capital" over Dreadnoughts. It makes a lot more sense to have another class just for the support roles so every capital is a decent choice as first venture into the world of capital ships. But then, it doesn't make much sense to have two completely different classes covered by the same skill. Now we have: Racial Dreadnought + Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration for in your face DPS Racial Carrier + Fighters for variable long range DPS and anti-support Racial FAX + Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration for logistics Its neat and tidy and makes a lot of sense. Crosi Wesdo wrote: Is that acceptable? If we accept it now will that kind of behavior occur elsewhere? Whats to stop CCP doing this to all ship roles? Even if it weren't acceptable - what can we do, really? CCP have shown that they don't give a flying **** about their players opinions anymore. The only way to show them that something is not acceptable is to leave the game. But if we do that, why would we care what CCP does in the future? So, it's either staying with the game if we still enjoy it, or quitting the game if we don't.
Justin Cody Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 346	Posted - 2016.02.09 23:38:44 - [280] - Quote Esnaelc Sin'led wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. That sentence is not quite clear in my opinion. Is that "Any Character with Tactical Reconfiguration SKILL, Carrier SKILL and FAX SKILL" ? Or do you mean "Any Character with Tactical Reconfiguration SKILL, a Carrier (the ship) and Force Auxiliary SKILL" ? In other word, are you takling about the SKILL or the SHIP when you say "Carrier" ? The "a" before "Carrier" is disturbing. 'a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected' is pretty specific that it is the skill and not the ship. You just misread it.
Justin Cody Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 346	Posted - 2016.02.09 23:39:52 - [281] - Quote Neuntausend wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: I dont think anyone disputes that. Question is why? I dont think its because they thought 25 years of total skills to train was insufficient. The answer is to peddle SP injectors. Well, the timing is perfect in that regard, so this line of reasoning probably plays a role. But it does make sense to split it up, even beyond pushing SP trading in our faces. They explained it rather well: Carriers are real multitalents - they can deal damage through fighters, they can repair, they can boost, they have a refitting service and a ship hangar. Therefore it's by far the superior choice for most people for their "first capital" over Dreadnoughts. It makes a lot more sense to have another class just for the support roles so every capital is a decent choice as first venture into the world of capital ships. But then, it doesn't make much sense to have two completely different classes covered by the same skill. Now we have: Racial Dreadnought + Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration for in your face DPS Racial Carrier + Fighters for variable long range DPS and anti-support Racial FAX + Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration for logistics Its neat and tidy and makes a lot of sense. Crosi Wesdo wrote: Is that acceptable? If we accept it now will that kind of behavior occur elsewhere? Whats to stop CCP doing this to all ship roles? Even if it weren't acceptable - what can we do, really? CCP have shown that they don't give a flying **** about their players opinions anymore. The only way to show them that something is not acceptable is to leave the game. But if we do that, why would we care what CCP does in the future? So, it's either staying with the game if we still enjoy it, or quitting the game if we don't. Pretty much. - could close the thread with that post.
Infinite Destruction Caldari Provisions Caldari State 21	Posted - 2016.02.10 01:10:48 - [282] - Quote 500 mill PER "Force Auxiliary" skill book !?!?!?!?!?? I have 5 toons trained to fly EACH type of carrier. Now I have to spend 2 BILLION per toon to get these books so I can continue doing what I was already able to do before this patch !??!?!?? It's normally considered polite to provide some kind of lubrication before surprise buttsex happens. Thanks for less than nothing CCP. (Oh and if I read the various threads right, I get the joy of having to RETRAIN to fly the Carriers I was able to fly yesterday ??!?!)
Lugh Crow-Slave 1550	Posted - 2016.02.10 01:28:14 - [283] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: " you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today". Which amount to **** all since CCP's rule was always if you can fly ship X today, you will be able to fly it tomorrow. If you can fly an Caldari carrier today, you will be able to fly it come citadel unless YOU CHOOSE to use the option provided to spec out of it. If your gonna cry about the "wasted" and "useless" skill for a dedicated X pilot, then remember this is the exact same way they handled to Orca skill shuffle where people were "stuck" with barge skill for example. CCP is following their usual rules quite to the letter in this case but people expect them to deviate from the usual procedure. It's not unheard of for people to be left with non optimal skills. As was told to Orca pilots back then, your skill are not useless. You just decide not to use them. but the ship i can fly now will not be here when the citadel release hits its getting cut in half. one half is just keeping the same name and model Yes it will be. If you had an Archon, you will still be able to fly an archon. If you could fly a chimera, you will still be able to fly a chimera. People could still fly their geddons after the change to a neut platform even if the way they used to use it was no longer functionnal. yes you're right they could it was just in the form of the navy variant Citadel worm hole tax
Jajuka Cirim 20	Posted - 2016.02.10 01:31:05 - [284] - Quote Infinite Destruction wrote: Now I have to spend 2 BILLION per toon to get these books so I can continue doing what I was already able to do before this patch !??!?!?? Didn't you hear? There's too much ISK in the game. Also you can't do it without buying the new ship too, so it's more like 8 BILLION per toon in your case.
Theon Severasse Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 140	Posted - 2016.02.10 02:44:20 - [285] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Cearain wrote: It seems to me that ccp has not really thought this through very well on many levels. I still do not understand why I need to have Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration in order to get my carrier sp refunded. I think they were given an objective to encourage use of skill injectors. Unfortunately, that requires ignoring the only two fit for purpose solutions of; - Use existing racial carrier skill and support skills, since no new role was being created, rather just separated. - Refunding all cap related skills to be reallocated. Im sure the devs would have gone with one of the reasonable options if the boot from higher up was not on their necks. I personally blame this on the EA director they hired.
Very Aggressive Reacharound State War Academy Caldari State 5	Posted - 2016.02.10 02:47:37 - [286] - Quote for godsake fing respond ccp you guys suck so much
Kat Davenport Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 6	Posted - 2016.02.10 03:19:48 - [287] - Quote Very Aggressive Reacharound wrote: for godsake fing respond ccp you guys suck so much Its after hours in iceland. They aren't replying right now. Why are you the way you are?
Shakira Akira Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 16	Posted - 2016.02.10 03:46:30 - [288] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We're seeding the 4 Racial Force Auxiliary skills in February, along with skills for Light Fighter Squadrons and Support Fighter Squadrons. Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. These skillpoints can be reallocated instantly as the player desires. If you start training the Force Auxiliary skill after the patch tomorrow, you can reallocate your refunded skillpoints right back into your racial carrier skill so you can fly both ships. Or spend them on anything you like! There'll be a dev-blog going into more details about our transition plans for Carriers, Force Auxiliaries and a bunch of other stuff, coming out later this week. Cheers, CCP Larrikin What about the cost of those books? As it stands.. it cost 2 bil to get the 4 racial carrier books.. (sure I'll get my skillpoints back) but 2 bil is still pretty pricy..
Mane Frehm The Executioners Shadow Cartel 55	Posted - 2016.02.10 05:48:43 - [289] - Quote I'm pretty disappointed in CCP here. Not automatically giving payers both ship types - I can understand this for a number of reasons....although I think its pretty clear that the real reason its been done this way is to drive demand for both training time and skill injections, thus creating revenue for CCP. Well played. But... Asking players to make choices about what they will do without any of the necessary information being available to make those choices is the height of absurdity. Asking me to train a skill when I don't know what it will do is madness. Do I want an Archon as it will be or the Amarr FAX? I don't know - nobody does until information about what the attributes for both ships will look like after the release is available. And asking players to spend 500 million per race to have that choice is definitely adding insult to injury. I understand the problem - asking your player base what each wants to do with their carrier ships/skills would be a nightmare, and totally unsupportable. So the solution required is one that will automatically generate the desired result from clearly articulated inputs with as little work as possible done by CCP staff to make this happen. Here's some thoughts for you: The simplest solution was what's been done before - if you had the skills on the old ship, you get them on the new ship. Sadly, that ship has sailed. So - lets get those ship and supporting module attributes published, critiqued, changed and finalized. Until players know what these ships will do players will not be able to intelligently choose. If this can be done quickly (and I am referring to days, not weeks and months), then the current approach has a shot...although the skillbook cost is a nasty touch. If not, then I recommend that at the time you release the Force Auxiliary ships, you refund all the SPs trained in both Carriers and Force Auxiliaries, AND you refund the 500 million ISK per skillbook for Carriers and Skillbooks. Players can then choose which they want with the necessary information at their disposal. Do get your act together; we've seen you do much better.
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 730	Posted - 2016.02.10 05:54:52 - [290] - Quote Per the slack channel logs is there any reason for both carriers and fax being x14 skills despite the dminished functionality of both ship types over the original carrier design? Is there any reason why the skill book is still 500mil for each as well? Why not bump dreads up to x14 and have their skillbooks be 500mil ea given they're getting buffed and this would make them on par witg the other capitals? Why do supers still only use base carrier skills when they're obviously a more advanced vessel and should have their own skill? Where is the devblog covering all of this? Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
Sean Sonnach Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance 6	Posted - 2016.02.10 06:06:32 - [291] - Quote https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6329823#post6329823 Nice, silence the decent by locking threads. This does however sum up pretty much exactly what everyone who is upset feels, along with other good points raised in this thread.
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 731	Posted - 2016.02.10 06:24:26 - [292] - Quote Devils advocate has anyone pointed out that with the refund of sp you should in theory be able to relevel carriers and fax to level 4 each or close to it and then only have a 30d train to get level 5? I realise in advance that it is a sticking point and probably pointed out much earlier but if you were the kind of person who was using their carrier for two different jobs anyway you're only out of pocket some time for essentially 2 ships that should be more effective at their given roles than the base carrier was originally. This is another one of those scenarios where if things had been done right the first time we'd already have 3 basic capitals like we're getting now and any suggestion to crush two ships in to one (the reverse of what we're seeing now) would be ridiculed as ridiculous and gamebreaking. It's another one of those times I ask myself "should it have been this way to begin with?" Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
MirrorGod Heretic Army I N F A M O U S 39	Posted - 2016.02.10 06:34:23 - [293] - Quote Three things really bother me here: 1) Goes against previous policy of "If you can already fly it, after changes you still can" 2) Leaving us with this deficit of functionality we previously had in tandem with the introduction of Skillpoint buying is a bold-faced money grab bearing the audacity of EA. 3) Lack of conversion of relating skills; only giving us back the one skill Love you CCP but nothing's brought me closer to wanting to unsub 5 accounts and tell corp mates to do the same. This guy's situation is a particularly good example. ...I'm a little worried that if there's not a revolt then we're telling ccp it's ok for them to act like EA http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6070/6122338654_85e9bbfca9_z.jpg
Sgt Ocker Kenshin. DARKNESS. 813	Posted - 2016.02.10 06:56:56 - [294] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We're seeding the 4 Racial Force Auxiliary skills in February, along with skills for Light Fighter Squadrons and Support Fighter Squadrons. Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. These skillpoints can be reallocated instantly as the player desires. If you start training the Force Auxiliary skill after the patch tomorrow, you can reallocate your refunded skillpoints right back into your racial carrier skill so you can fly both ships. Or spend them on anything you like! There'll be a dev-blog going into more details about our transition plans for Carriers, Force Auxiliaries and a bunch of other stuff, coming out later this week. Cheers, CCP Larrikin While this is quite reasonable, I don't fancy spending 4 or 5 billion isk on skillbooks without knowing the value of them. Will what we are buying these skill books for (attributes of the ships we are training for) be released in time to make an informed decision before the march cutoff or are we expected to just buy a 500 mil book for each and toss those we decide aren't worth it later? My opinions are mine. If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Luscius Uta 193	Posted - 2016.02.10 07:25:37 - [295] - Quote People who have both Carrier skill and Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration trained to at least L1 should receive FAX skill trained to the same level as their Carrier skill of the same race after FAXes get released. Those who injected and/or trained FAX skills between today and actual release of The Force Auxiliary ships should get their money and SP reimbursed. Of course, some people will say that it goes against the current philosopy of not giving people skills to fly new classes of ships when they get released. However, when CCP releases new ship classes, they usually fill a new role. This is not the case with FAXes, since their role is copied from an existing ship class. They aren't really "new" ships in the same way that Command Destroyers or Logistics Frigates were, they were old ships fulfilling a specific role moved to an entirely new hull. Drifters have arrived - The End is nigh!
Tiberian Deci Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 158	Posted - 2016.02.10 07:42:15 - [296] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: You appear to be being willfully obtuse. Explain why a new hull and rebalance of texting old is insufficient to correct them. I don't know the real answer but if I have to make a guess on why they did it, I'd say it's because they want each capital hull your train for to be a meaningful choice with the associated time sink. And yet it's ill thought out as the x14 and costs are because it also was for supers. Not so much with these. I'm pretty sure they made it 14x because they don't want people to have overflowing SP after re-speccing into FAX from carrier. Unless everyone speccing into FAX is willing to burn those SP? It's not gonna happen and I already hear the 'I trained those SP!!!" warcry... Uhhhh... it's been x14 for a long time now...
Tiberian Deci Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 158	Posted - 2016.02.10 07:43:52 - [297] - Quote Sean Sonnach wrote: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6329823#post6329823 Nice, silence the decent by locking threads. This does however sum up pretty much exactly what everyone who is upset feels, along with other good points raised in this thread. christ learn to spell
Tiberian Deci Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 158	Posted - 2016.02.10 07:45:16 - [298] - Quote Luscius Uta wrote: People who have both Carrier skill and Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration trained to at least L1 should receive FAX skill trained to the same level as their Carrier skill of the same race after FAXes get released. Those who injected and/or trained FAX skills between today and actual release of The Force Auxiliary ships should get their money and SP reimbursed. Of course, some people will say that it goes against the current philosopy of not giving people skills to fly new classes of ships when they get released. However, when CCP releases new ship classes, they usually fill a new role. This is not the case with FAXes, since their role is copied from an existing ship class. They aren't really "new" ships in the same way that Command Destroyers or Logistics Frigates were, they were old ships fulfilling a specific role moved to an entirely new hull. This guy gets it. Never not triple post.
Vulfen Snuff Box Snuffed Out 183	Posted - 2016.02.10 09:01:04 - [299] - Quote CCP you're asking pilots to make a big choice now with these skills but you havent released the stats of the bonuses on the ship. Can you please release the full stats to the FAX so we can effectively come up with the best descision that allows us to continue playing the game effectively. Some people have multiple accounts that will need this decision to be made on and at 500m a skill book it's a big choice for some.
Frank Pannon 183	Posted - 2016.02.10 09:46:08 - [300] - Quote I rarely say this but for now I think CCP should just wait a bit with FAX seeding. Players need information in order to know how to decide, we are talking about months worth of training here. Really no need to rush ahead blindly like this. Unless there is some game development mechanic in the background which I know nothing of. Maybe CSM could chip in here?
Marox Calendale Human League Eleven Signs Network 73	Posted - 2016.02.10 10:14:28 - [301] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We're seeding the 4 Racial Force Auxiliary skills in February, along with skills for Light Fighter Squadrons and Support Fighter Squadrons. Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. These skillpoints can be reallocated instantly as the player desires. If you start training the Force Auxiliary skill after the patch tomorrow, you can reallocate your refunded skillpoints right back into your racial carrier skill so you can fly both ships. Or spend them on anything you like! There'll be a dev-blog going into more details about our transition plans for Carriers, Force Auxiliaries and a bunch of other stuff, coming out later this week. Cheers, CCP Larrikin What-¦s happening to existing Fighter and Bomber skills? Will they also be reallocated with citadel release?
Lugh Crow-Slave 1551	Posted - 2016.02.10 11:13:06 - [302] - Quote Marox Calendale wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We're seeding the 4 Racial Force Auxiliary skills in February, along with skills for Light Fighter Squadrons and Support Fighter Squadrons. Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. These skillpoints can be reallocated instantly as the player desires. If you start training the Force Auxiliary skill after the patch tomorrow, you can reallocate your refunded skillpoints right back into your racial carrier skill so you can fly both ships. Or spend them on anything you like! There'll be a dev-blog going into more details about our transition plans for Carriers, Force Auxiliaries and a bunch of other stuff, coming out later this week. Cheers, CCP Larrikin What-¦s happening to existing Fighter and Bomber skills? Will they also be reallocated with citadel release? Fighters is needed for all other fighter skills and odds are fighter bombers will just be changed to heavy fighters Citadel worm hole tax
Marcus Tedric Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation 56	Posted - 2016.02.10 11:13:59 - [303] - Quote Marox Calendale wrote: .............. What-¦s happening to existing Fighter and Bomber skills? Will they also be reallocated with citadel release? We don't know - but will hopefully find out in the Dev Blog - tomorrow? However - Light Fighter and Support Fighter skills are out now (probably 3 whole months of training time available before the expansion I suspect); and The Overview settings have changed to include a new folder for 'Fighters', which, after yesterday has 3 entries: Heavy Fighters; Light Fighters; & Support Fighters Therefore the best guess so far is that the current 'Fighters' skill -> Heavy Fighters; & 'Fighter Bombers' skill SP will be refunded so that we can allocate it to either/both the other two/3. But - this thread ^^ - apart from the price of the new FAux skills; the rest is perfectly logical......
S810 Jr C.Q.B Snuffed Out 20	Posted - 2016.02.10 11:44:04 - [304] - Quote GIVE UP THE DAMN FAX HULL STATS ALREADY! We have no idea what the gallente one will have, but I can be sure it will NOT be a racial bonus to fighters like the Thanny has now! Will the Amarr keep bonus to all armor resistances? And you still expect us to just blindly buy skill books and train stuff we may NEVER use come patch day... well unless you count extracting those SP, which would involve giving you more real life monies, oh I see what you did there! Crafty EA.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1753	Posted - 2016.02.10 11:53:50 - [305] - Quote Neuntausend wrote: Well, the timing is perfect in that regard, so this line of reasoning probably plays a role. But it does make sense to split it up, even beyond pushing SP trading in our faces. They explained it rather well: Carriers are real multitalents - they can deal damage through fighters, they can repair, they can boost, they have a refitting service and a ship hangar. Therefore it's by far the superior choice for most people for their "first capital" over Dreadnoughts. It makes a lot more sense to have another class just for the support roles so every capital is a decent choice as first venture into the world of capital ships. But then, it doesn't make much sense to have two completely different classes covered by the same skill. Now we have: Racial Dreadnought + Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration for in your face DPS Racial Carrier + Fighters for variable long range DPS and anti-support Racial FAX + Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration for logistics Its neat and tidy and makes a lot of sense. Its the kind of 'neat and tidy' that stalin was looking for when he tried to redesign russia. Not sure history looks back on that as a smart move. In achieving this 'neat and tidy' CCP will throw people months behind where they currently are now while offering the solution which can run from 600GBP(900USD+) per racial skill. Ill show you THE neat and tidy way to introduce this new ship. This is legitimate since no new role is being added so there is no fair justification to add a new skill. All that needs to be done is rename each racial carrier skill to 'Fleet Auxiliary Support' or something of the like. Racial Dreadnought + Tactical Reconfiguration Fleet Auxiliary Support + Carrier + Fighters Fleet Auxiliary Support + FAX + Triage There becomes 2 ships in the class, this is not unique in EVE and follows the path of all other sub cap T1 ships. It also opens up the option to add different performing ships in the dreadnought class. This option leaves people with the same capabilities that they currently have, does not require any free SP and does not put new bros any further behind the old guard. Neuntausend wrote: Even if it weren't acceptable - what can we do, really? CCP have shown that they don't give a flying **** about their players opinions anymore. The only way to show them that something is not acceptable is to leave the game. But if we do that, why would we care what CCP does in the future? So, it's either staying with the game if we still enjoy it, or quitting the game if we don't. So what you are saying is there is no point complaining, or talking about the alternatives? That is a horrible position to take. If people get mad about this change and just quietly quit without warning then how does that help the game? Im not a spiteful person so i think the better option is to make it very clear why many of us are antagonized by this cash grab and what the options are to recover from this. This happened in the past with Incarna. It may not happen now, but i hope CCPs cost / benefit analysis of throwing so many of its most loyal customers under the bus is well calculated.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2966	Posted - 2016.02.10 12:01:27 - [306] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Racial Dreadnought + Tactical Reconfiguration Racial Fleet Auxiliary Support + Carrier + Fighters Racial Fleet Auxiliary Support + FAX + Triage. Your idea is so amazing, if only CCP could have thought of it.... Oh wait they did and discarded it because it failed to meet one of their aims, which was that any of the capitals should be equal value first trains for someone new to caps. Your idea yet again leaves the Dread skill out as the poor cousin, something they specifically were designing to prevent. Their current solution is actually the ideal solution, yes it hurts having to spend training time to be able to both DPS & Logi perfectly again, but at the end of the day it is the best solution available for their given design requirements.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1753	Posted - 2016.02.10 12:03:52 - [307] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Racial Dreadnought + Tactical Reconfiguration Racial Fleet Auxiliary Support + Carrier + Fighters Racial Fleet Auxiliary Support + FAX + Triage. Your idea is so amazing, if only CCP could have thought of it.... Oh wait they did and discarded it because it failed to meet one of their aims, which was that any of the capitals should be equal value first trains for someone new to caps. Your idea yet again leaves the Dread skill out as the poor cousin, something they specifically were designing to prevent. Their current solution is actually the ideal solution, yes it hurts having to spend training time to be able to both DPS & Logi perfectly again, but at the end of the day it is the best solution available for their given design requirements. Since the dreadnought is a far cheaper skill im not sure you have a valid point. The only design requirements satisfied by this change is tempting people to buy SP injectors. Its hilarious that you brown shirt for them though.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1185	Posted - 2016.02.10 12:13:09 - [308] - Quote Considering they can easily make the main timesink of the new carriers fighters and triage, that's not a valid argument. Furthermore dreads being cheaper and a lower rank undermines the goal you claim they have anyway. Where are the new skill requirements for the stasis grapplers? Where is the unique bowhead skill? Or is it just cap pilots who get the good news?
Tawaif Ministry of War Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2016.02.10 12:21:19 - [309] - Quote The important conversation is being had on reddit anyway, why did i even bother to hope that a dev might possibly show his or her face on this thread.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1753	Posted - 2016.02.10 12:23:11 - [310] - Quote Please dont make me create a reddit account. Nobody wants that.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2966	Posted - 2016.02.10 12:33:07 - [311] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Where are the new skill requirements for the stasis grapplers? Where is the unique bowhead skill? Or is it just cap pilots who get the good news? Uh, that would be called Ore Freighter, a skill which only does the Bowhead? Seriously, at least try to know what you are whining about.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1187	Posted - 2016.02.10 12:39:47 - [312] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: Where are the new skill requirements for the stasis grapplers? Where is the unique bowhead skill? Or is it just cap pilots who get the good news? Uh, that would be called Ore Freighter, a skill which only does the Bowhead? Seriously, at least try to know what you are whining about. My mistake, I forgot about it. Your attitude is ironic though. Perhaps you could explain the navy battlecruisers, indeed the navy anything - doesn't need a new skill. The Nosprey is quite clearly a different distinct role from the osprey. Perhaps we need navy ship books too. Cripes man, aside from the odd troll, not a single cap pilot is happy about this. The entire focus group dislikes it. When you've managed to ** off everyone** with a transition you know you're doing it wrong.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1754	Posted - 2016.02.10 12:43:25 - [313] - Quote Dont forget about new skills for the T1 frigate and cruiser logi. Not only do they not fall into the regular combat cruiser role. they are dramatically different to their previous incarnation. CCP must have forgot to give them new skills when they got their logistics role.
Tawaif Ministry of War Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2016.02.10 12:46:12 - [314] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Please dont make me create a reddit account. Nobody wants that. Maybe you should because it seems CCP take about as much notice of their Forum's as I do of the current lines and price's in the Aurum store.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1187	Posted - 2016.02.10 12:49:52 - [315] - Quote Tawaif wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Please dont make me create a reddit account. Nobody wants that. Maybe you should because it seems CCP take about as much notice of their Forum's as I do of the current lines and price's in the Aurum store. Given the silence in the current top reddit post, which has 90% approval from a nearly five hundred people last I checked...yeah don't hold your breath. Here's the tl;dr of the impact: Loroseco Cross wrote: A pilot with perfect remaps and +4s trains about 2600sp/hour. To get my two Archon pilots to the same utility they have now, I will have to train for a total of 156 days on both accounts. That's 6 PLEX, or 33 skill injectors. So either 7.2bil per account if I'm patient enough to train, or 15-20bil in injectors (300k sp per injector). Bear in mind that I only have Amarr carrier 5. Anyone with all carriers to 5 will have to train for 328 days to maintain the same utility post-Citadel that they currently have today.
Tawaif Ministry of War Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2016.02.10 12:52:23 - [316] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Tawaif wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Please dont make me create a reddit account. Nobody wants that. Maybe you should because it seems CCP take about as much notice of their Forum's as I do of the current lines and price's in the Aurum store. Given the silence in the current top reddit post, which has 90% approval from a nearly five hundred people last I checked...yeah don't hold your breath. Here's the tl;dr of the impact: Loroseco Cross wrote: A pilot with perfect remaps and +4s trains about 2600sp/hour. To get my two Archon pilots to the same utility they have now, I will have to train for a total of 156 days on both accounts. That's 6 PLEX, or 33 skill injectors. So either 7.2bil per account if I'm patient enough to train, or 15-20bil in injectors (300k sp per injector). Bear in mind that I only have Amarr carrier 5. Anyone with all carriers to 5 will have to train for 328 days to maintain the same utility post-Citadel that they currently have today. They're more likely to be reading Reddit than their own forum's tho
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1187	Posted - 2016.02.10 12:54:18 - [317] - Quote Yeah, this one made me laugh though: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/44a906/patch_notes_patch_notes_for_february_2016_release/czopb28 Turns out it wasn't so much speculation as entirely accurate foretelling.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2584	Posted - 2016.02.10 13:46:53 - [318] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: When you've managed to ** off everyone** with a transition you know you're doing it wrong. Or you know people were expecting to be handed stuff for free and didn't...
Vulfen Snuff Box Snuffed Out 183	Posted - 2016.02.10 13:51:08 - [319] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: When you've managed to ** off everyone** with a transition you know you're doing it wrong. Or you know people were expecting to be handed stuff for free and didn't... Its not the lack of free stuff most people are annoyed with, but the lack of accurate information so we can make an informed decision on the best route that annoys people.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2584	Posted - 2016.02.10 13:55:44 - [320] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Funny how you made a mistake and acknowledged it. Unlike the two trolls in here who are factually or conceptually wrong on nearly everything they say but just ignore it like it didnt happen lol. Dont forget about new skills for the T1 frigate and cruiser logi. Not only do they not fall into the regular combat cruiser role. they are dramatically different to their previous incarnation. CCP must have forgot to give them new skills when they got their logistics role. They didn't add new skills for the cruiser and frigates because we were already able to fly the hull in question. I could fly a mining osprey so their rule stated I had to be able to still fly an osprey. If they created a new skill for them, they would need to grant it's SP value to everyone who could fly it back before the change or we would have a case of not being able to fly a ship we could before. This is not happening to the FAX as no-one could fly them ever before. The same principle was followed when they made the BC except they really wanted to create a bigger SP sink to fly them all so they went with a solution that increased the SP sink while also letting everyone still fly all the hulls they could before the change. If I could fly all BC with V skill on them before the swap, they had to let me fly them all at V after the change too. You could not fly a FAX at V before the announcement and most likely won't be able to make it to have all trained by the time citadel hits and that is why you don't get it directly to you. Your suggestion would work if CCP said the role you could fly before, you will fly after but it was never that. It was always about ships.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2586	Posted - 2016.02.10 13:58:28 - [321] - Quote Vulfen wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: When you've managed to ** off everyone** with a transition you know you're doing it wrong. Or you know people were expecting to be handed stuff for free and didn't... Its not the lack of free stuff most people are annoyed with, but the lack of accurate information so we can make an informed decision on the best route that annoys people. I have no issue with people annoyed they don't know what the ship will end up being, I have issue with people asking to be granted skills to fly 4 new ship because they trained for another one before.
ISD Fractal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 972	Posted - 2016.02.10 14:11:12 - [322] - Quote Quote: 3. Ranting is prohibited. A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents. 4. Personal attacks are prohibited. Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated. Posts violating these rules and those quoting them have been removed. ISD Fractal Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1755	Posted - 2016.02.10 14:14:26 - [323] - Quote Literally noone wants new skills for free. People just want to be able to do what they have already trained for. I can fly a combat carrier, i can fly a triage carrier. they could have introduced a new ship in the carrier line without creating a new skill since both roles are preexisting. The fact that you have to misrepresent peoples objections as wanting free stuff really speaks volumes about your purpose here. The fact that CCP introduced these ships in the way that they did also speaks volumes. It doesnt matter how much misguided apologetics you throw at it, you are still nothing more than a troll. People complaining about legitimate issues on a forum is what they are for. People complaining about people complaining is a little bit sad mate.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2587	Posted - 2016.02.10 14:21:12 - [324] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Literally noone wants new skills for free. People just want to be able to do what they have already trained for. I can fly a combat carrier, i can fly a triage carrier. they could have introduced a new ship in the carrier line without creating a new skill since both roles are preexisting. The fact that you have to misrepresent peoples objections as wanting free stuff really speaks volumes about your purpose here. The fact that CCP introduced these ships in the way that they did also speaks volumes. It doesnt matter how much misguided apologetics you throw at it, you are still nothing more than a troll. People complaining about legitimate issues on a forum is what forums are for. People complaining about people complaining is a little bit sad mate. What you trianed for is a carrier. Up to 4 carrier in fact and if you trained for them, you will be able to fly them. No ship that you were ever able to fly will become unavailable to be flown by you when citadels hit unless you put your SP elsewhere. If you have any example of any SHIPS you can fly and won't be able to when the patch hit, then list it. Beside that, anything else you are asking for is skill to fly a ship you could not fly before and that is something CCP don't have to grant you.
Harkin Issier Negative-Impact Violence of Action. 55	Posted - 2016.02.10 14:26:11 - [325] - Quote Posting here since your ISD so helpfully locked the other thread. You took one hull, broke it in half, and then expect people to pay you $$$ to be able to continue using both halves. That's disgusting. Make it so FAXes use the racial Carrier skill (newbro friendly!!!). Or give players the FAX skill in the same level as racial Carrier. Or convert Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration directly to all racial FAX skills and then eliminate TLR entirely. Basically, give people the same roles they had pre-patch as they will have post-patch, instead of forcing them to pay you money to inject skills or a subscription fee/multiple-pilot training to keep doing stuff they have been able to do for years. You're screwing over your playerbase and if you took 30s of thought you'd come up with ways of doing it that wouldn't hurt newer or older pilots. But you won't because $$$$$$. I'm very disappointed.
Cearain Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis 1452	Posted - 2016.02.10 14:29:23 - [326] - Quote CCP said they would adequately address these issues regarding skills at eve vegas. And everytime these issues came up they have always done that. I still think they will but if this goes through with this alone then its clear something has changed. I think it is wild speculation to blame the guy who came from EA so lets just wait to see if ccp is going to address some of the many inequities clearly identified. They include: 1)Cost of skill books 2) Other skills which are clearly related to how carriers and super carriers currently work such as fighters, fighter bombers, capital remote repair cap energy transfers and tactical logi reconfig etc. 3) Either explain why someone should have to train tactical logistical reconfiguration before they are refunded their carrier sp, or no longer keep that requirement in order to get a refund. There may be some technical issues with some of these so it may not be possible for ccp to tell us exactly how it will shake out but they should at least give us a tip off that they are going to revisit these issues (and others? I may have missed some.)as per their representations at eve vegas that the players who trained these skills would be treated fairly. edit: Frosty you are going backwards on this. CCP already acknowledged that their drastic cap changes would warrant some compensation for players who trained carriers. The debate is really just how insufficient this proposal in the op is, not whether it is in fact sufficient. CCP has a great track record of treating its players right when it comes to avoiding screwing them out of their sp. If nothing else were done this would be a large departure from their prior history. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1763	Posted - 2016.02.10 14:38:03 - [327] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: What you trianed for is a carrier. Up to 4 carrier in fact and if you trained for them, you will be able to fly them. No ship that you were ever able to fly will become unavailable to be flown by you when citadels hit unless you put your SP elsewhere. If you have any example of any SHIPS you can fly and won't be able to when the patch hit, then list it. Beside that, anything else you are asking for is skill to fly a ship you could not fly before and that is something CCP don't have to grant you. Wow, you really have a bug for pointless forum warrioring dont you? What you have is essentially a meaningless semantic argument. Of those impacted by this change, of which you are almost certainly not, there is no difficulty understanding that this is a problematic precedence. Not only was a new ship not needed to create this split in purpose, but the most solid reason for the way things are panning out seems to by a cynical cash grab. Everyone is already perfectly clear on your position here, you dont mind CCP putting people months behind where they were pre-patch and trying to persuade them to part with more cash to fix this discrepancy. Understood, you are a fanboy who sees a semantic approach to what you think is a valid argument and grabs it. We do mind what CCP is trying to do and what it represents for the future of EVE if at any time a ship that can be used in multiple ways it can be split up and half taken from us and repackaged and commodified.
Robert Dalentis What Could Go Wrong Snuffed Out 9	Posted - 2016.02.10 14:42:31 - [328] - Quote It is really upsetting to see a blatant cash grab like this. Certainly grandfathering us into these skills is a poor idea (screws over newbros who don't have the skills) but hot damn, it really is not in line with other capitals for us to train this much to simply get to the point carrier pilots were at before... the multipliers on the proposed skills are ridiculously high. You're telling me I have to train 3 14x skills to get to the same point I've barely reached? plus another 14x skill per race? Plus another 500m for the privilege of getting to choose what I can fly PER RACE? This announcement coinciding with the release of extractors/injectors (and the intentionally poor aurum pricing to make us pay even more for them) really makes me think CCP doesn't give a damn about "eve forever" and is just after a quick buck. Feel free to prove me wrong. Lack of intelligence officer
Memphis Baas 1104	Posted - 2016.02.10 14:43:47 - [329] - Quote Maybe we're thinking about this the wrong way: Technically, the Force Auxiliary ships are NOT carriers; they don't have fighters (the drones they have are for defense). It may be less expensive (skillpoint wise) to transform dreadnoughts to force auxiliaries. Or it may be more expensive. But they could make the Force Auxiliary ship the super-dreadnought, as far as the ship progression. Clearly they want to take away repair capability from the carriers and super-carriers. Why not just rename the carrier triage skill to whatever the new carriers will use, and treat the change as a complete change to carriers. And treat the new Force Auxiliary ships as new ships, super-dreadnought size, with capital remote repairs instead of guns. Fauxes are going to need super-levels of tank if they're supposed to be 1 per fleet, always primaried, self-repair only. Disclaimer: this is probably a stupid idea; I usually have such ideas. Feel free to argue against it, call me stupid, whatever; I won't mind.
Veetor Nara The Bastards The Bastards. 23	Posted - 2016.02.10 14:52:03 - [330] - Quote I disagree with this. If I had fighters trained to IV, I would like to have all the fighter skills at IV - and if I had Amarr Carrier IV and Gallente Carrier III I would like to get Amarr FAX IV and Gallente FAX III please. Same as you did a few years ago with Scout drones -> light drones / medium drones.
Andronitis Suddenly Carebears 16	Posted - 2016.02.10 15:15:19 - [331] - Quote CCP, this is a blatant cash grab that needs to be fixed before going live. Introducing new skills to gain the same utility as we already have while at the same time introducing skill injectors and mismatched Aurum prices. You are letting greed ruin a once great game. Pay to win exemplified. -4 accounts come Citadel
Aaril Noble Sentiments Second Empire. 22	Posted - 2016.02.10 15:20:37 - [332] - Quote At this point it is a pretty safe assumption that you will not have both FAX 5 and Carrier 5 without training both. I agree with the general sentiment that this is a bad business practice, BUT...I think there may be a solution that could make both sides happy. Essentially, take the current Carrier 5 bonuses and make them a hull bonus on the new ship. That way, even if a person chose to have FAX 1 and Carrier 1 they would lose no relative power from today. Since the ships are being split, I think most people are hoping for some new mechanics/powers to make the split interesting. This new mechanic could then be affected by the skill bonus instead. Another similar idea is to make the ship bonuses relatively minor (similar to what they did to Drone Interfacing). For example, instead of a bonus being 10% per level, make them 5% per level. Then make sure that FAX 4 and Carrier 4 are each at the same relative power that Carrier 5 is today. There is a 5% power creep due to this idea, but I feel that is relatively minor.
Azahar Ortenegro Astromechanica Maxima Astromechanica Federatis 58	Posted - 2016.02.10 15:31:10 - [333] - Quote Mane Frehm wrote: If not, then I recommend that at the time you release the Force Auxiliary ships, you refund all the SPs trained in both Carriers and Force Auxiliaries, AND you refund the 500 million ISK per skillbook for Carriers and Skillbooks. Players can then choose which they want with the necessary information at their disposal. Do get your act together; we've seen you do much better. This. Reimburse, and let the players choose what they want to do.
PotterPig Perkone Caldari State 1	Posted - 2016.02.10 15:33:08 - [334] - Quote I'm fine with having new skills to train. My Problem with all this is only, that CCP wants me to decide, which FAX I train now, without telling me, what the FAX's stats will look like. If I start training a FAX to 5 now, I'll be ready when the patch goes live. But I dont know what racial skill to train up ...
Loroseco Kross Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 28	Posted - 2016.02.10 15:57:00 - [335] - Quote My Reddit post on the topic. 400+ upvotes is not something to turn your nose up at. The silent majority clearly do not like the way thus change has been implemented I'm an acquired taste.
Evan Giants Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium 14	Posted - 2016.02.10 15:58:46 - [336] - Quote So everyone called you out, CCP. They laid out arguments, all maths and **. And why haven't you fix this ** already?
Doomchinchilla Collapsed Out Pandemic Legion 140	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:00:46 - [337] - Quote Azahar Ortenegro wrote: Mane Frehm wrote: If not, then I recommend that at the time you release the Force Auxiliary ships, you refund all the SPs trained in both Carriers and Force Auxiliaries, AND you refund the 500 million ISK per skillbook for Carriers and Skillbooks. Players can then choose which they want with the necessary information at their disposal. Do get your act together; we've seen you do much better. This. Reimburse, and let the players choose what they want to do. I don't want to be refunded. I was a perfect DPS carrier AND triage carrier PRE-Citadel. I want to be a perfect DPS carrier and Triage carrier POST-Citadel. I shouldn't have to choose, I shouldn't have to spend more isk on something I already can do. I fail to see what people don't get about this. Ignoring the fact that we need to spend isk on 2 rank 12 fighter books, and the FAX machine book. IGNORING that it's at least 3 months of training to get back to the same square I'm at now. PLUS another month for every other racial carrier that I previously trained. Despite what some of you choose to believe some of us have characters that performed a DPS role AND a logi role with triage. I shouldn't have to choose to **** myself just because CCP want my money.
Memphis Baas 1105	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:11:06 - [338] - Quote You're also ignoring the specifics of the carrier changes, where you won't be able to be a "perfect DPS carrier pilot" because they're adding player skill into the equation: how good you are at managing your launches, returns, and refittings. They watched too many World War 2 movies and want carrier pilots to be caught "with their pants down" like in those movies - having bombers in the air instead of defense fighters, or having all their fighters away on attack when the enemy planes arrive. Think of it through the filter of "how CCP balances ships", the only way they believe they can achieve this "pants down" is to balance the new carriers so you're always at a disadvantage even with all skills 5. Thus, you won't be a "perfect" pilot.
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 1064	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:11:56 - [339] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: EdFromHumanResources wrote: Can you make an exception for pilots that are...I dunno..sitting in a Mothership? If you don't inject the racial force auxiliary skill then your skillpoints will remain in the racial carrier skill. Rancid Meatballs wrote: What happens if a pilot logs in his carrier, and there are no SP in his carrier skill? You can still warp / jump / dock / etc. However you won't have any bonuses from your skill, and you can't undock until you reallocate the skillpoints into the carrier skill. Last update 2 days ago. Thanks CCP for reminding me why I quit paying you a dime of my RL money since the Odyssey expansion. Not today spaghetti.
KIller Wabbit Unleashed' Fury Imminent Threat 926	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:16:43 - [340] - Quote Nice cash grab CCP! Still betting on pink slips.

CCP Larrikin C C P C C P Alliance 374	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:39:37 - [341] - Quote Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Game Designer \| Team Five-0 \| https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin

Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2902	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:42:05 - [342] - Quote Carrier and Force Auxiliary skills should cost just 10x instead of 14x. Even at 10x, they will still be more skill-intensive than Dreadnoughts with all their important support skills. Making them only 10x will greatly reduce the retraining burden for pilots who had previously had training for both fighters and triage, and now will not have it. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Trajan Unknown Rifterlings Zero.Four Ops 75	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:42:24 - [343] - Quote So did I get that right and the fighter/fighter bomber skill will get obsolete?
D3m0n sam Shadow Incursion The Banished 61	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:42:46 - [344] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Thankgod.
Robert Dalentis What Could Go Wrong Snuffed Out 10	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:45:50 - [345] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Good Guy Larrikin Lack of intelligence officer
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1194	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:48:46 - [346] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin You....I like you.
James Clough Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 34	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:49:47 - [347] - Quote Can someone confirm what's happening with the fighters skills? #GLITTER http://i.imgur.com/KXyHvqy.jpg
Ripard Teg Snuff Box Snuffed Out 1242	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:56:05 - [348] - Quote Thank you. aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
Zealot Ghasha Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 8	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:56:46 - [349] - Quote Thank you - good to see CCP is listening
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 17456	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:58:25 - [350] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Thank you. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Murkar Omaristos The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance 227	Posted - 2016.02.10 16:59:21 - [351] - Quote Trajan Unknown wrote: So did I get that right and the fighter/fighter bomber skill will get obsolete? I too would like to know if this is the case so that I can extract all the SP from my carrier alts when supers get crushed by the nerf bat.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1767	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:00:34 - [352] - Quote Dont mean to seem ungrateful but i wonder if this has anything to do with the already huge numbers of injectors and extractors traded yesterday, on top of the backlash from cap pilots. Perhaps the pressure is off on the hard sell :p Dont get me wrong, i think the injectors/extractors are a great item to help newer players catch up on the years. Just didnt look good when they come at the same time you take abilities away from older players. Fingers crossed.
Ravcharas Infinite Point Northern Army 436	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:02:31 - [353] - Quote Sexy Cakes wrote: Thanks CCP for reminding me why I quit paying you a dime of my RL money since the Odyssey expansion. Congratulations on making them more money than if you had paid with plastic.
FleshDiver V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA 3	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:03:18 - [354] - Quote Trajan Unknown wrote: So did I get that right and the fighter/fighter bomber skill will get obsolete? For flying a FAX, yes fighters skills will not be applicable For carriers no, the fighters and fighter bombers skill will be used to improve proficiency with those fighter types. I imagine the fighters skill will improve all fighters, where as light, support, and bombers will have their niches improved by their respective skills.
gascanu Bearing Srl. 304	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:10:03 - [355] - Quote D3m0n sam wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Thankgod. i say let's wait an see...
Trajan Unknown Rifterlings Zero.Four Ops 75	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:12:17 - [356] - Quote FleshDiver wrote: Trajan Unknown wrote: So did I get that right and the fighter/fighter bomber skill will get obsolete? For flying a FAX, yes fighters skills will not be applicable For carriers no, the fighters and fighter bombers skill will be used to improve proficiency with those fighter types. I imagine the fighters skill will improve all fighters, where as light, support, and bombers will have their niches improved by their respective skills. Thanks for the reply. Guess I will keep the stuff in on my other char then. :)
Zorena The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 12	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:13:37 - [357] - Quote Capgu thanks for your ideas and suggestions in the capital discussion group.
Orion Pax Yoyodyne corporation 38	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:18:19 - [358] - Quote What happens to people that already bought and injected the skills?
Capitol One Snuff Box Snuffed Out 197	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:20:12 - [359] - Quote Glad to see CCP respond to the feedback :)
Mane Frehm The Executioners Shadow Cartel 58	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:20:53 - [360] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Thank you for listening.
gr33nCO Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 6	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:23:36 - [361] - Quote larrikin quit dodging my tweets!
Amarisen Gream Divine Demise Apocalypse Now. 199	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:24:32 - [362] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin I am glad you all are going back to the drawing board for this - I posted in the Player F&I about a one time reallocation option for all characters on active accounts, Why? Development changes should not be a consequences for the players skilling path. Especially when the SP requirement for capital ships is so HIGH!!!! "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 DIDE- is open to new members
Michael Pawlicki R3d Fire 38	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:24:34 - [363] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Thanks a bundle for reconsidering. The training issues created by this would have destroyed the time investment of far too many players, not to mention new capital pilots like myself.
James Angstrom Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 2	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:29:47 - [364] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Thanks for listening to the community Larrikin. I hope this won't negatively affect those of us who went along with the previous plan and liquidated some poor alt's braingoo into the new FAX skills after the skill trading update though.
Sahriah BloodStone No.Mercy Triumvirate. 249	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:35:34 - [365] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: What you trianed for is a carrier. Up to 4 carrier in fact and if you trained for them, you will be able to fly them. No ship that you were ever able to fly will become unavailable to be flown by you when citadels hit unless you put your SP elsewhere. If you have any example of any SHIPS you can fly and won't be able to when the patch hit, then list it. Beside that, anything else you are asking for is skill to fly a ship you could not fly before and that is something CCP don't have to grant you. Simply focusing on the hull of a ship shows you completely misunderstand the issue. If you reallocate your sp back into the carrier, you will be unable to activate the triage module after the patch because you will be unable to sit in the ship that can use it. Therefore you are losing a functionality you already had access to, which is wrong. CCP has stated many times that 'if you can use it before a patch you can use it after' and you won't be able to use the triage module after because you won't be able to use the ship. Stop looking at the 3d model of the ship and assess the functionality it provides because that is what is important Sahriah Bloodstone Praetor, No.Mercy "Never underestimate your enemy or disrespect its abilities. If you do, you shall become the hunted "
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1769	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:41:59 - [366] - Quote Sahriah BloodStone wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: What you trianed for is a carrier. Up to 4 carrier in fact and if you trained for them, you will be able to fly them. No ship that you were ever able to fly will become unavailable to be flown by you when citadels hit unless you put your SP elsewhere. If you have any example of any SHIPS you can fly and won't be able to when the patch hit, then list it. Beside that, anything else you are asking for is skill to fly a ship you could not fly before and that is something CCP don't have to grant you. Simply focusing on the hull of a ship shows you completely misunderstand the issue. If you reallocate your sp back into the carrier, you will be unable to activate the triage module after the patch because you will be unable to sit in the ship that can use it. Therefore you are losing a functionality you already had access to, which is wrong. CCP has stated many times that 'if you can use it before a patch you can use it after' and you won't be able to use the triage module after because you won't be able to use the ship. Stop looking at the 3d model of the ship and assess the functionality it provides because that is what is important I just think he lacks something in his life where not only does he have to play this terrible game like this but he also wants hollow smug victories on the forum too. Shame CCP pulled that rug from under him.
Mai Khumm Lonetrek Freeport 773	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:43:29 - [367] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Allow me the ability to rip the Carrier skills from my skull at no cost...
fy'nite Saraki FTOE Holdings Free Traders of EVE 3	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:52:03 - [368] - Quote As a carrier V pilot, I was dismayed to find how long it would take to be able to train up the skills to be able to be able to perform triage again. Especially with no stats out on the Force Auxiliary ships, nor the new light fighters/support fighters. Having to make a blind choice is ridiculous and serves only to alienate the faithful subscribers who have been around a long time training carriers in the first place.The post on reddit detailing how much ISK/time it would take for someone who has all carriers V to replicate all Force Auxiliaries V is a perfect illustration of how bad the plan is. I'm glad CCP has at least taken note that we are not happy about this. While a straight skill split may favor existing carrier V pilots too much (but not THAT much), there are other ways to throw us a bone: -Make them 10x skills as suggested earlier so it does not take nearly a year of training/ISK/real money to have the ability to perform roles in game that can be performed NOW. -Give a portion of SP toward the new racial force aux skills for those who have a corresponding racial carrier V trained now. Like, halfway between level 4 and level 5. Or something. -Publish stats on the new fighters/force aux ships so we can at least determine whether we want to throw away our ability to triage, throw away our ability to use carriers/fighters, or just tough it out and train up both.
Dograzor BLACK SQUADRON. RAZOR Alliance 79	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:53:08 - [369] - Quote Dear CCP, As you are being somewhat wise and implementing the first wave of damage control through Larrikin so I'll stay nice: ~If you can fly it now, you will be able to fly it after~ I expect no compromise nor gimped versions of the above statement.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1770	Posted - 2016.02.10 17:57:45 - [370] - Quote At the risk of repeating myself too, too much. Have both carriers based on the same class - The racial carrier skill. You could modify the existing carriers as you intend to, and just add the new FAX under the same (perhaps renamed) racial carrier skill. This doesnt have to be any more complicated than when you introduced a new destroyer (apart from related support skills).
Zenwushu Hellscream Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition 2	Posted - 2016.02.10 18:07:49 - [371] - Quote How will this impact those that have taken the jump bought the skill and trained it ? Can petition a rebate of isk and rebate of skills ?
Kimimaro Yoga Paragon Trust The Bastion 50	Posted - 2016.02.10 18:14:16 - [372] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Carrier and Force Auxiliary skills should cost just 10x instead of 14x. Even at 10x, they will still be more skill-intensive than Dreadnoughts with all their important support skills. Making them only 10x will greatly reduce the retraining burden for pilots who had previously had training for both fighters and triage, and now will not have it. Yes, this so much. I came here just to post more or less the same thought. CCP, I understand you are having two separate ships, and want the total skill train to be longer. That's alright, we know capital ships are undergoing major changes. The whole "fly it before/after" doesn't really hold when you're changing major functions of the ships. But right now you are asking dual drone dps/triage pilots to train over 5million SP of the new fighter skills, plus 3.55million for each new Ladies' Auxiliary. Not only is this a lot of additional training, but in the case of the carriers it doesn't even make sense. Carriers have a higher multiplier than dreads because they can do more things. Now that they're being split into two ships, it shouldn't take twice the SP to get the same functionality. So keep your original plan, of refunding carrier SP for people who inject the force aux. But change the multiplier of the FAX skill to 10x, now. And when you do the carrier SP refund, knock it down to 10x as well. This will not only lessen the retrain burden by 1.4 million SP per carrier type, it will mean new players spend a more sensible amount of time training into each one. Works all around. Now recruiting: http://dogfacedesign.com/index.php/Recruiting-Posters/recruiting-poster-patr3
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2911	Posted - 2016.02.10 18:15:27 - [373] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Just do it based on their tactical reconfiguration skill. If they don't have it, they're obviously not going to use triage afterwards.
Maria Kishunuba Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 7	Posted - 2016.02.10 18:43:01 - [374] - Quote Rowells wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Just do it based on their tactical reconfiguration skill. If they don't have it, they're obviously not going to use triage afterwards. Unless they were one of the probably many carrier alts in training that havn't trained the triage skill yet. Doing what you suggest is a good way of making a lot of alts in training next to useless and kill the time/isk/money investment put into those.
ZmajOgnjeniVuk Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore 6	Posted - 2016.02.10 18:55:47 - [375] - Quote I'm just posting so I don't get fined.
VirusMD Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers. 19	Posted - 2016.02.10 18:58:23 - [376] - Quote Dear CCP, your quickly becoming just like every other money sucking pay to win game company out there... Your alienating your long term players and handicapping any place that you can use said capitals for an extended period of time, weakening defenses across the game. If you ask me this is a game breaking change and an extremely obvious grab for cash. Now we even have to look at your ad for the skill injector when i open my character sheet? really push much? I've been playing eve solid for almost 8 years with no breaks and multiple accounts. When I read these changes, I was appalled, Seeing just how long it would take to get back to where a character is now is just ridiculous, there are so many better idea's on this thread alone. How could you possible expect us to blindly train or not train a skill, giving us no solid information to make our decision on. This is EVE you should know that, people think for themselves here. What happened to the days of testing patches, listening to the community, acting on feedback before invoking a 50+ page thread naught of complaints. Over the last 2 years and change there has been MAJOR issues with every single release, trash passed off as releases. So many un-kept promises. Ever since PLEX came out you've been on a very slippery slope, and we all know your paying for it in subscription loss, we all see it every time we log in. I am sure others can attest to this as well, but i spent my first 3 years in change in high sec, grinding missions so that i could have the standings to get a POS, and jump clones. 3 years of work, and in 2 changes, (if you count the accidental removal of jump clones standings that you later decided to keep) you invalidated all that work, oh but you left me KOS in half of space, now with no benefit to it at all. So follow my line of thinking here..... Why do most ppl train carriers, is it for the woefull drone dps, or the massive rep ability? I think most would say for the Remote Reps. So wouldn't it make more sense for the new drone only capital to be the "Force Auxiliary" and the carrier skills still affected the logistics side, maybe rename carriers to something like "Logistics Auxiliary" Thus avoiding the mess of complaints, leaving current pilots in there roles they already prob spent a year + training into, and not leaving corps and alliances more vulnerable for an extended period of time? RELEASE SOME STATS FOR THE LOVE OF BOB! /end rant (for now) - VirusMD
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 7175	Posted - 2016.02.10 19:01:10 - [377] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Hopefully the new devblog will just contain a link to the HTFU video, otherwise it seems that every time a bunch of players get up in arms they get handed whatever they want which doesn't bode well for the future if this game really is supposed to be hardcore. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Aurthes M. Corp Engineering Executive Outcomes 61	Posted - 2016.02.10 19:05:09 - [378] - Quote Why not just convert the skill for Tactical Logistics into the FAX skill?
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2271	Posted - 2016.02.10 19:11:16 - [379] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Thank you. Eagerly awaiting that Dev blog... CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Brolli Polli Wolfpaq 0	Posted - 2016.02.10 19:17:34 - [380] - Quote James Angstrom wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Thanks for listening to the community Larrikin. I hope this won't negatively affect those of us who went along with the previous plan and liquidated some poor alt's braingoo into the new FAX skills after the skill trading update though. IQ check required for this poster please.
Jatok Reknar The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance 18	Posted - 2016.02.10 19:20:50 - [381] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Thanks so much for listening to community feedback and being willing to adjust plans accordingly. This is truly what makes CCP great. :)
LYFE SUCKS Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 1	Posted - 2016.02.10 19:47:53 - [382] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin amazing
Veetor Nara The Bastards The Bastards. 25	Posted - 2016.02.10 19:50:27 - [383] - Quote Thank you for reconsidering
Yogsoloth IceBox Inc. 179	Posted - 2016.02.10 20:07:08 - [384] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Meh... listening means nothing if you're still forcing them to bend over and take it. The proof will be in the pudding. As it stands now, it's a cash grab that Id wager came from one of those fancy new EA castoffs on the payroll. GG CCP. With each crappy new iteration and cash grab I get closer and closer to the end. The last xpac that was worth a spit was Crucible, it's been all downhill since. And thats a looooong time.
D3N3R0TH ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 1	Posted - 2016.02.10 20:37:53 - [385] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin HI Larrikin, Would it not be logical to simply make Force Aux require the racial carrier skill and tactical logistics reconfiguration ? Then make the racial carrier skill +% to whatever ship bonuses and the tactical Logistics skill +% to whatever repping/cap bonus? Then everyone who already has racial carrier V and Tactical logistics V are the same as they are now - and all new players dont have to train anything more than we all did? Makes sense really.. As for the new fighter skills - same thing goes... if you have fighters V and Fighter bomber V it should be split into the new skills
Hound Halfhand Repo Industries 26	Posted - 2016.02.10 20:40:28 - [386] - Quote The simple fact of the matter is that capital ships desperately needed to be updated. It has been a long time and the changes seem to be for the positive. IE carriers now being like a true carrier and not a logi ship OR a fighter ship. A dedicated logistics capital. Dreadnoughts being used for actions other than popping structures or Sleepers. People using capital ships as a whole more and more capital specific modules. I have multiple capital ships skills to V on two different characters and over 160m sp on my main. CCP does NOT need to be handing out 12m free sp to me (or whatever the math adds up to) or any other capsuleer with 7 years of consistent training under their belt. That will just further push the bar towards the high sp characters or worse give them free ISK in the form of selling sp. It'll be an even bigger barrier of entry for new talent to play the game. Does everyone want a new players first experience in the game, buying one off the character bazaar? Nothing wrong with the changes announced other than the timing. They should have given us much more warning on what to train than what appears to be 2 months. That is my only real gripe. Also a free remap would be in order. IMO they should even split the carrier and super carrier into 2 different skills. "Thats the way its always been" is not a proper way to update a 13 year old game. Citadels and capital changes are a much needed upgrade and giving away a bunch of free SP and skill books is nothing but detrimental to the game. Releasing it at the same time as skill extractors was such a bad idea that a marketing/PR person needs to be fired. It's making a much needed upgrade appear like a money grab. o7
Mai Ling Ravencroft Duragon Pioneer Group Goonswarm Federation 43	Posted - 2016.02.10 20:43:51 - [387] - Quote Rosal Milag wrote: ApolloF117 HUN wrote: Rosal Milag wrote: Malcanis wrote: There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots. Yes because adding 4.5 million sp and adding 12 million sp is an equivalent event. Oh and did they have injectors in game when the 4.5 million sp was added? Man, everyone but you totally missed them. This is the best case scenario for CCP to keep the SP of the most advanced players from inflating more while keeping total value of the game null. Admit to the truth, you want free SP for no other reason than CCP has given SP in one circumstance similar in the past. The rest of us are happy that triage pilots are not screwed up the ass with training times. Stop thinking that you deserve free SP. You don't. You don't deserve a damn thing in this game. Everyone gets the same treatment. Admit little forum alt, you don't have a carrier and now you are just a tryhard :D and what i heard, pilot like me who has over 100m sp, those extractor/injector junks are mostly usless I do have a carrier, two actually. I'm looking to pick up the minmatar FAX skill and keep my gallente carrier where it is. Congrats, you have done what I thought to be the impossible, and caused me to not only agree with a MOA member but also find his quip funny. Good job, little forum alt.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 1025	Posted - 2016.02.10 20:58:45 - [388] - Quote I just don't know which FAX racial skill to train as I do not know what the ship stats will be. So I think I will hold off.
Tiberian Deci Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 161	Posted - 2016.02.10 21:07:36 - [389] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Vulfen wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: When you've managed to ** off everyone** with a transition you know you're doing it wrong. Or you know people were expecting to be handed stuff for free and didn't... Its not the lack of free stuff most people are annoyed with, but the lack of accurate information so we can make an informed decision on the best route that annoys people. I have no issue with people annoyed they don't know what the ship will end up being, I have issue with people asking to be granted skills to fly 4 new ship because they trained for another one before. You are dumb please quit posting and go back to ratting
Sean Crees Sean's Safe Haven 28	Posted - 2016.02.10 21:57:38 - [390] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Can your devblog PLEASE just be a link to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIxkLHYteeU
Akrasjel Lanate Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate 1871	Posted - 2016.02.10 22:44:42 - [391] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Why you so weak CCP Tell them to HTFU Akrasjel Lanate Founder and CEO of Naquatech Conglomerate Executor of Naquatech Syndicate Citizen of Solitude
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1773	Posted - 2016.02.10 22:53:26 - [392] - Quote Akrasjel Lanate wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Why you so weak CCP Tell them to HTFU Why does CCP implementing a punitive plan represent a more desirable solution than one that doesnt set many people back a full year of training? Take your time, i doubt you have ever reflected on these deep aspects of your personality.
Sean Crees Sean's Safe Haven 28	Posted - 2016.02.10 22:57:59 - [393] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Akrasjel Lanate wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Why you so weak CCP Tell them to HTFU Why does CCP implementing a punitive plan represent a more desirable solution than one that doesnt set many people back a full year of training? Take your time, i doubt you have ever reflected on these deep aspects of your personality. You could fly carriers before, you'll be able to fly carriers after the patch. Ship capabilities change from time to time, and new ships are added to the game periodically, and no one has ever gotten an SP refund or free skillbooks or free SP from it before. HTFU!
Yogsoloth IceBox Inc. 179	Posted - 2016.02.10 23:16:33 - [394] - Quote Sean Crees wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Akrasjel Lanate wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Why you so weak CCP Tell them to HTFU Why does CCP implementing a punitive plan represent a more desirable solution than one that doesnt set many people back a full year of training? Take your time, i doubt you have ever reflected on these deep aspects of your personality. You could fly carriers before, you'll be able to fly carriers after the patch. Ship capabilities change from time to time, and new ships are added to the game periodically, and no one has ever gotten an SP refund or free skillbooks or free SP from it before. HTFU! I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you on this... one word. Battlecruisers. Nuff said.
Sean Crees Sean's Safe Haven 28	Posted - 2016.02.10 23:18:44 - [395] - Quote Yogsoloth wrote: Sean Crees wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Akrasjel Lanate wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Why you so weak CCP Tell them to HTFU Why does CCP implementing a punitive plan represent a more desirable solution than one that doesnt set many people back a full year of training? Take your time, i doubt you have ever reflected on these deep aspects of your personality. You could fly carriers before, you'll be able to fly carriers after the patch. Ship capabilities change from time to time, and new ships are added to the game periodically, and no one has ever gotten an SP refund or free skillbooks or free SP from it before. HTFU! I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you on this... one word. Battlecruisers. Nuff said. There used to be a single skill that allowed you to fly all battlecruisers. When they changed the skill requirements, they made it so you could keep flying the same ships you could before. You can fly a carrier now, and you'll be able to fly a carrier after the patch. It's exactly the same.
Awkward Pi Duolus Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 161	Posted - 2016.02.10 23:18:57 - [396] - Quote Sean Crees wrote: You could fly carriers before, you'll be able to fly carriers after the patch. Ship capabilities change from time to time, and new ships are added to the game periodically, and no one has ever gotten an SP refund or free skillbooks or free SP from it before. HTFU! Would you be equally satisfied if they gave your Chimera the same properties as an Ibis, but still kept the look and feel of a Chimera?
Sean Crees Sean's Safe Haven 28	Posted - 2016.02.10 23:22:12 - [397] - Quote Awkward Pi Duolus wrote: Sean Crees wrote: You could fly carriers before, you'll be able to fly carriers after the patch. Ship capabilities change from time to time, and new ships are added to the game periodically, and no one has ever gotten an SP refund or free skillbooks or free SP from it before. HTFU! Would you be equally satisfied if they gave your Chimera the same properties as an Ibis, but still kept the look and feel of a Chimera? It would suck, but its happened to me in the past with other ships, and i lived with it.
ApolloF117 HUN Angels and Demons Inc. Mordus Angels 24	Posted - 2016.02.10 23:22:33 - [398] - Quote Sean Crees wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Akrasjel Lanate wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Why you so weak CCP Tell them to HTFU Why does CCP implementing a punitive plan represent a more desirable solution than one that doesnt set many people back a full year of training? Take your time, i doubt you have ever reflected on these deep aspects of your personality. You could fly carriers before, you'll be able to fly carriers after the patch. Ship capabilities change from time to time, and new ships are added to the game periodically, and no one has ever gotten an SP refund or free skillbooks or free SP from it before. HTFU! yeah, since 2014 till that, no one tuches nothing, but our hero fozzie did everything well to give us frigate online yay because capital warfare is exactly the thing where you can implement these changes. you can train a capital ship from 0 to lvl 4 less than 2-3 days like you would to with a logistic ship ehh? and i wonder whats going to happen when the new fax ships get into the game and now we wait till the first ones get build so we can rep our towers dreads, titants etc etc
James Angstrom Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 3	Posted - 2016.02.10 23:29:15 - [399] - Quote Brolli Polli wrote: IQ check required for this poster please. Thank you for your insightful comment. My point is that now that the FAX skillbooks have been added to the game, we will have players that will have A) bought the FAX books for their current price and B) potentially inserted skillpoints into those skills. This means that any potential rethink of how the skills are transitioned needs to take this reality into consideration. For my own position, I, like many others, was slightly disappointed by the path CCP originally decided on. However, I accepted that was just how it was going to be, and that if I wanted to continue flying carriers and triage after the patch I'd need both skills. I was already planning to pull skills from an unfocused alt and reinvest them into my capital pilot, even before the transition plan was announced on Monday. Seeing as I'm on a Int/Mem remap it made sense to use those skillpoints on the off remap FAX skill, put the reimbursed carrier skillpoints on patch day back into carriers and continue training optimally without needing to train FAX off remap. Given what we were been told previously this seemed like the optimal thing to do to continue flying what I can now on the release of citadel, so I don't know why you feel the need to rudely question my IQ (tbf it's probably pretty low).
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2915	Posted - 2016.02.10 23:30:07 - [400] - Quote Maria Kishunuba wrote: Rowells wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Just do it based on their tactical reconfiguration skill. If they don't have it, they're obviously not going to use triage afterwards. Unless they were one of the probably many carrier alts in training that havn't trained the triage skill yet. Doing what you suggest is a good way of making a lot of alts in training next to useless and kill the time/isk/money investment put into those. alts in training are less of a concern. It's happened before, capital skill changes, destroyer/battlecruiser, etc. The intent of copying the skills over is to to keep people already flying these things, in the ship, not to get those who arent even in the ship yet, into it faster.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1773	Posted - 2016.02.10 23:38:48 - [401] - Quote Sean Crees wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Akrasjel Lanate wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Why you so weak CCP Tell them to HTFU Why does CCP implementing a punitive plan represent a more desirable solution than one that doesnt set many people back a full year of training? Take your time, i doubt you have ever reflected on these deep aspects of your personality. You could fly carriers before, you'll be able to fly carriers after the patch. Ship capabilities change from time to time, and new ships are added to the game periodically, and no one has ever gotten an SP refund or free skillbooks or free SP from it before. HTFU! I could also use a triage module and alternatively launch fighters too. I think you hot boxed this brain fart for a little too long.
Mai Ling Ravencroft Duragon Pioneer Group Goonswarm Federation 43	Posted - 2016.02.11 00:56:23 - [402] - Quote Sean Crees wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Akrasjel Lanate wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Why you so weak CCP Tell them to HTFU Why does CCP implementing a punitive plan represent a more desirable solution than one that doesnt set many people back a full year of training? Take your time, i doubt you have ever reflected on these deep aspects of your personality. You could fly carriers before, you'll be able to fly carriers after the patch. Ship capabilities change from time to time, and new ships are added to the game periodically, and no one has ever gotten an SP refund or free skillbooks or free SP from it before. HTFU! The point trying to be made here, which CCP seems to get, but try herds like you fail to see, is simple. CCP is not just modifying the carrier line, but giving them a complete overhaul. Not only will they not have logistics, they also are completely changing the combat side of the hull. Then on top of massively changing the very nature of the hulls, they are also significantly reducing resists and raw he. So at the end 9f this, we will see the same hulls, with the same names, but these will be nothing like the hulls we choose to train for. The introduction of the Ore frig was simular, yes, but doesn't come close to compare to the effort and investment all carrier pilots have made, and with the previously offered idea, it left carrier pilots massively shafted, without any idea if the extra cost and training was worth it, as we still have no stats for the old/new hulls post change.
Substantia Nigra Polaris Rising The Bastion 1477	Posted - 2016.02.11 02:18:36 - [403] - Quote My main carrier-dood has each carrier skill as well as fighters to V. So now, simply to have him be able to fly these new variant carriers, i am being required to 'invest' 2.2 billion isk and many more months of queue time ... just for that one character. That really is ridiculous gouging. Why in Hek would you completely nullify all those months of training and force all that additional expenditure? I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
fy'nite Saraki FTOE Holdings Free Traders of EVE 4	Posted - 2016.02.11 02:46:46 - [404] - Quote Substantia Nigra wrote: My main carrier-dood has each carrier skill as well as fighters to V. So now, simply to have him be able to fly these new variant carriers, i am being required to 'invest' 2.2 billion isk and many more months of queue time ... just for that one character. That really is ridiculous gouging. Why in Hek would you completely nullify all those months of training and force all that additional expenditure? To create artificial demand for the new 'skill trading' system, of course.
Justin Cody Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 349	Posted - 2016.02.11 02:49:48 - [405] - Quote Substantia Nigra wrote: My main carrier-dood has each carrier skill as well as fighters to V. So now, simply to have him be able to fly these new variant carriers, i am being required to 'invest' 2.2 billion isk and many more months of queue time ... just for that one character. That really is ridiculous gouging. Why in Hek would you completely nullify all those months of training and force all that additional expenditure? Ok so here's a point that no one is really making: Due to the role split DPS carriers are getting additional ECM utility of some kind and presumably the FAUX Machines will get some additional utility that you didn't have as a triage pilot previously (by the time it is released). So the logic falls apart when people are arguing about the concept of utility since both ships are going to have new and unique properties - it isn't a simple bonus split. with the negation of pantheon/wrecking ball as a concept there's a lot more to this than people are seeing. We haven't seen pre-release ship stats yet. CCP is deliberately getting rid of the swiss army carrier and rebalancing bittervets against newbros by this change. Your carrier privilege is being checked.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 250	Posted - 2016.02.11 03:09:41 - [406] - Quote Justin Cody wrote: Substantia Nigra wrote: My main carrier-dood has each carrier skill as well as fighters to V. So now, simply to have him be able to fly these new variant carriers, i am being required to 'invest' 2.2 billion isk and many more months of queue time ... just for that one character. That really is ridiculous gouging. Why in Hek would you completely nullify all those months of training and force all that additional expenditure? Ok so here's a point that no one is really making: Due to the role split DPS carriers are getting additional ECM utility of some kind and presumably the FAUX Machines will get some additional utility that you didn't have as a triage pilot previously (by the time it is released). So the logic falls apart when people are arguing about the concept of utility since both ships are going to have new and unique properties - it isn't a simple bonus split. with the negation of pantheon/wrecking ball as a concept there's a lot more to this than people are seeing. We haven't seen pre-release ship stats yet. CCP is deliberately getting rid of the swiss army carrier and rebalancing bittervets against newbros by this change. Your carrier privilege is being checked. all they needed to do this is nerf the rep ability of the current carrier and moved all those bonus to the triage mod. Make a new mod to use the fighter squads and without any mod the ability to use normal drones (max 5)
Justin Cody Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 349	Posted - 2016.02.11 03:29:52 - [407] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: Justin Cody wrote: Substantia Nigra wrote: My main carrier-dood has each carrier skill as well as fighters to V. So now, simply to have him be able to fly these new variant carriers, i am being required to 'invest' 2.2 billion isk and many more months of queue time ... just for that one character. That really is ridiculous gouging. Why in Hek would you completely nullify all those months of training and force all that additional expenditure? Ok so here's a point that no one is really making: Due to the role split DPS carriers are getting additional ECM utility of some kind and presumably the FAUX Machines will get some additional utility that you didn't have as a triage pilot previously (by the time it is released). So the logic falls apart when people are arguing about the concept of utility since both ships are going to have new and unique properties - it isn't a simple bonus split. with the negation of pantheon/wrecking ball as a concept there's a lot more to this than people are seeing. We haven't seen pre-release ship stats yet. CCP is deliberately getting rid of the swiss army carrier and rebalancing bittervets against newbros by this change. Your carrier privilege is being checked. all they needed to do this is nerf the rep ability of the current carrier and moved all those bonus to the triage mod. Make a new mod to use the fighter squads and without any mod the ability to use normal drones (max 5) Except no. They did need to split it. No more swiss army knife. sorry. Check your carrier privilege.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 251	Posted - 2016.02.11 03:45:19 - [408] - Quote Justin Cody wrote: Lady Rift wrote: Justin Cody wrote: Substantia Nigra wrote: My main carrier-dood has each carrier skill as well as fighters to V. So now, simply to have him be able to fly these new variant carriers, i am being required to 'invest' 2.2 billion isk and many more months of queue time ... just for that one character. That really is ridiculous gouging. Why in Hek would you completely nullify all those months of training and force all that additional expenditure? Ok so here's a point that no one is really making: Due to the role split DPS carriers are getting additional ECM utility of some kind and presumably the FAUX Machines will get some additional utility that you didn't have as a triage pilot previously (by the time it is released). So the logic falls apart when people are arguing about the concept of utility since both ships are going to have new and unique properties - it isn't a simple bonus split. with the negation of pantheon/wrecking ball as a concept there's a lot more to this than people are seeing. We haven't seen pre-release ship stats yet. CCP is deliberately getting rid of the swiss army carrier and rebalancing bittervets against newbros by this change. Your carrier privilege is being checked. all they needed to do this is nerf the rep ability of the current carrier and moved all those bonus to the triage mod. Make a new mod to use the fighter squads and without any mod the ability to use normal drones (max 5) Except no. They did need to split it. No more swiss army knife. sorry. Check your carrier privilege. they can spit it into 2 ships that use the carrier skill book. just like all other t1 classes.
Justin Cody Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens 349	Posted - 2016.02.11 04:08:12 - [409] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: Justin Cody wrote: Lady Rift wrote: Justin Cody wrote: Substantia Nigra wrote: My main carrier-dood has each carrier skill as well as fighters to V. So now, simply to have him be able to fly these new variant carriers, i am being required to 'invest' 2.2 billion isk and many more months of queue time ... just for that one character. That really is ridiculous gouging. Why in Hek would you completely nullify all those months of training and force all that additional expenditure? Ok so here's a point that no one is really making: Due to the role split DPS carriers are getting additional ECM utility of some kind and presumably the FAUX Machines will get some additional utility that you didn't have as a triage pilot previously (by the time it is released). So the logic falls apart when people are arguing about the concept of utility since both ships are going to have new and unique properties - it isn't a simple bonus split. with the negation of pantheon/wrecking ball as a concept there's a lot more to this than people are seeing. We haven't seen pre-release ship stats yet. CCP is deliberately getting rid of the swiss army carrier and rebalancing bittervets against newbros by this change. Your carrier privilege is being checked. all they needed to do this is nerf the rep ability of the current carrier and moved all those bonus to the triage mod. Make a new mod to use the fighter squads and without any mod the ability to use normal drones (max 5) Except no. They did need to split it. No more swiss army knife. sorry. Check your carrier privilege. they can spit it into 2 ships that use the carrier skill book. just like all other t1 classes. but it isn't a carrier any more. you don't get it. That's like saying you should use carrier book for the dreadnought.
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 251	Posted - 2016.02.11 04:23:22 - [410] - Quote Justin Cody wrote: but it isn't a carrier any more. you don't get it. That's like saying you should use carrier book for the dreadnought. it is a carrier. all a carrier is is a class of ship. Just like we have multiple cruiser ships and frigs (both classes have a ship that can RR) under the same skill we can have the same for carrier ships.
Arlyn Nightblade 24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2016.02.11 04:30:41 - [411] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin I just went and got the Fax skill based on what you guys previously published... i hope that wasn't a waste now!
Very Aggressive Reacharound State War Academy Caldari State 6	Posted - 2016.02.11 04:58:06 - [412] - Quote Lady Rift wrote: Justin Cody wrote: Substantia Nigra wrote: My main carrier-dood has each carrier skill as well as fighters to V. So now, simply to have him be able to fly these new variant carriers, i am being required to 'invest' 2.2 billion isk and many more months of queue time ... just for that one character. That really is ridiculous gouging. Why in Hek would you completely nullify all those months of training and force all that additional expenditure? Ok so here's a point that no one is really making: Due to the role split DPS carriers are getting additional ECM utility of some kind and presumably the FAUX Machines will get some additional utility that you didn't have as a triage pilot previously (by the time it is released). So the logic falls apart when people are arguing about the concept of utility since both ships are going to have new and unique properties - it isn't a simple bonus split. with the negation of pantheon/wrecking ball as a concept there's a lot more to this than people are seeing. We haven't seen pre-release ship stats yet. CCP is deliberately getting rid of the swiss army carrier and rebalancing bittervets against newbros by this change. Your carrier privilege is being checked. all they needed to do this is nerf the rep ability of the current carrier and moved all those bonus to the triage mod. Make a new mod to use the fighter squads and without any mod the ability to use normal drones (max 5) ^THIS!!!!
Hiljah Foo Holdings AL3XAND3R. 22	Posted - 2016.02.11 04:59:53 - [413] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hii Mates, We're seeding the 4 Racial Force Auxiliary skills in February, along with skills for Light Fighter Squadrons and Support Fighter Squadrons. Any character with Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration, a Carrier and Force Auxiliary skill (of the same race) injected when the citadels expansion launches, will have the racial carrier skillpoints refunded as unallocated skillpoints. These skillpoints can be reallocated instantly as the player desires. If you start training the Force Auxiliary skill after the patch tomorrow, you can reallocate your refunded skillpoints right back into your racial carrier skill so you can fly both ships. Or spend them on anything you like! Update to this section! CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin There'll be a dev-blog going into more details about our transition plans for Carriers, Force Auxiliaries and a bunch of other stuff, coming out later this week. Cheers, CCP Larrikin Lol. This is a bigger charlie foxtrot than I thought it would be. I mean I assumed you were going to screw us out of isk AND sp, but to not even have PLANNED it is especially insulting. So I'm not spending extra money on this game because of corporate greed, you're just incompetent, wonderful.
Very Aggressive Reacharound State War Academy Caldari State 6	Posted - 2016.02.11 05:00:01 - [414] - Quote Arlyn Nightblade wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin I just went and got the Fax skill based on what you guys previously published... i hope that wasn't a waste now! don't worry this is ccp they defiantly do not hear us.. we apparently have to riot and unsub before they do what they should of done in the first place. Also remember it took them the whole life of this game to get frigates90% right so come back 10 years from now and caps will probably be in a good place.
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2915	Posted - 2016.02.11 05:58:32 - [415] - Quote TINFOIL! GET YOUR TINFOIL HERE! GET IT WHILE ITS FRESH FROM THE LOONY MINES! AND FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY, FOR EVERY ROLL YOU PURCHASE, YOU GET ONE SET OF BATH SALTS, ABSOLUTELY FREE! Disclaimer: bath salts are intended for bathing purposes
Amarisen Gream Divine Demise Apocalypse Now. 202	Posted - 2016.02.11 08:23:35 - [416] - Quote Another thing I want to point out - (don't have capital ship skills, I refuse to invest in a coffin) CCP has done a total **** job with this. First - If the player had the carrier skill injected they should have gotten the corresponding FAX skill for free. Not another 500 Million Second - The market cost for carriers and FAX would than be 250 Million each for a total of 500 Million. Third - Why the flock of fly squirrels do you people at CCP have to come across to ducking greedy. It is like you all are trying to squeeze every last penny out of your players. I am not asking for the game to be free, I would just like to see a company that isn't all about micro transactions and such. - Now I just had a conversation with my alliance leadership about taxes - My argument was basically this What are the cost of our Alliances Sov? This does not include SRP programs or Alliance spending goals, just the pure and simple cost of doing everyday business. I don't know what the subscription and Plex income is for CCP or the cost of running CCP - but to me all these micro transactions with AUR, MCT etc and this new SP system (all of which are nice) is just a money grab way beyond what it needs to be. And if they are there in hope to making up production cost gaps from lack of subs, than you have your marketing all ducked up. "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 DIDE- is open to new members
Akrasjel Lanate Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate 1872	Posted - 2016.02.11 08:45:14 - [417] - Quote Because people that fly/use carriers actively are poor scrubs. Akrasjel Lanate Founder and CEO of Naquatech Conglomerate Executor of Naquatech Syndicate Citizen of Solitude
Little Nicky Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 0	Posted - 2016.02.11 09:17:19 - [418] - Quote Arlyn Nightblade wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin I just went and got the Fax skill based on what you guys previously published... i hope that wasn't a waste now! yeah 500 mill each each race = 2 bill example 6 characters = 12 bill then add ; Light Fighters = 100 mill support Fighter = 100 mil like add , 1.2 bill to the total thats just say one person.. there is allot of isk moving atm. ... Who's going to benefit ? ... and yes, I agree with "Amarisen Gream " if you have the carrier skill you should have it injected already...
Aphatasis Evoke. Ev0ke 9	Posted - 2016.02.11 09:46:07 - [419] - Quote Saeletra wrote: Current Habit wrote: It's like CCP doesn't want me to play past the capital expansion. Certainly feels that way, yeah. THIS!!!
Custos Stratos Gotham City. 1	Posted - 2016.02.11 10:23:11 - [420] - Quote Justin Cody wrote: Substantia Nigra wrote: My main carrier-dood has each carrier skill as well as fighters to V. So now, simply to have him be able to fly these new variant carriers, i am being required to 'invest' 2.2 billion isk and many more months of queue time ... just for that one character. That really is ridiculous gouging. Why in Hek would you completely nullify all those months of training and force all that additional expenditure? Ok so here's a point that no one is really making: Due to the role split DPS carriers are getting additional ECM utility of some kind and presumably the FAUX Machines will get some additional utility that you didn't have as a triage pilot previously (by the time it is released). So the logic falls apart when people are arguing about the concept of utility since both ships are going to have new and unique properties - it isn't a simple bonus split. with the negation of pantheon/wrecking ball as a concept there's a lot more to this than people are seeing. We haven't seen pre-release ship stats yet. CCP is deliberately getting rid of the swiss army carrier and rebalancing bittervets against newbros by this change. Your carrier privilege is being checked. And it would be great if they start coming up with some infos about these EWAR abilites/changes. There was basically no further information on that in 4 months. Skills, Modules, Attributes.........
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1198	Posted - 2016.02.11 10:42:26 - [421] - Quote Justin Cody wrote: Substantia Nigra wrote: My main carrier-dood has each carrier skill as well as fighters to V. So now, simply to have him be able to fly these new variant carriers, i am being required to 'invest' 2.2 billion isk and many more months of queue time ... just for that one character. That really is ridiculous gouging. Why in Hek would you completely nullify all those months of training and force all that additional expenditure? Ok so here's a point that no one is really making: Due to the role split DPS carriers are getting additional ECM utility of some kind and presumably the FAUX Machines will get some additional utility that you didn't have as a triage pilot previously (by the time it is released). Perhaps but the ecm utility etc and all that cool stuff is from the fighters which are gated behind some heavy skills of their own - as we can see from the seeding of those new skills. Which is completely fine, by the way, I'm just saying that it's not gated behind the hull and there's no reason a single skill won't suffice here.
Little Nicky Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 1	Posted - 2016.02.11 12:56:06 - [422] - Quote D3N3R0TH wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin HI Larrikin, Would it not be logical to simply make Force Aux require the racial carrier skill and tactical logistics reconfiguration ? Then make the racial carrier skill +% to whatever ship bonuses and the tactical Logistics skill +% to whatever repping/cap bonus? Then everyone who already has racial carrier V and Tactical logistics V are the same as they are now - and all new players dont have to train anything more than we all did? Makes sense really.. As for the new fighter skills - same thing goes... if you have fighters V and Fighter bomber V it should be split into the new skills Yes Sister.... You're on the money...
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 1065	Posted - 2016.02.11 12:59:32 - [423] - Quote Aurthes wrote: Why not just convert the skill for Tactical Logistics into the FAX skill? So, you can fly a FAX with that skill + carrier skill. You can fly the carrier with carrier skill + fighter skill. That wouldn't add enough extra skill points that need to be trained by vets. Not today spaghetti.
Ravcharas Infinite Point Northern Army 443	Posted - 2016.02.11 13:07:18 - [424] - Quote Akrasjel Lanate wrote: Because people that fly/use carriers actively are poor scrubs. There's no monthly payout or anything. Carrier pilots are like everyone else, some are poor and some are rich, just with more time and isk invested in skills.
Sgt Ocker Kenshin. DARKNESS. 818	Posted - 2016.02.11 13:16:07 - [425] - Quote Exert from capital focus group - 10-02-16 Quote: [10:42] darren_fox - Although it might be a minor detail, I think what CCP is trying to do is to create Faux as a different capital type. We think if it as a carrier w/triage module, but in the vision (tm) it is a progression from T2 logistics ships. Quote: [10:43] ccp_larrikin - What @darren_fox said. Would not training (or having trained), Tactical Logistics Configuration on top of racial carrier skills be equal to training, "Racial" Force Auxiliary? Keep it simple - Caldari Carrier 1 Plus Tactical Logistics Configuration Lvl 1 = Caldari Fax 1 Caldari Carrier X Plus Tactical Logistics Configuration Lvl 5 = Caldari Fax 5 So the Fax skill is specifically tied to Tactical Logistics skill, which in the past was specifically trained to use the logistics power of today's carriers. It is also a progression from "T2 Logistics ships", due to training requirements, Logistics Cruiser Level 5. Preparation - Player wishing to convert skills to "Racial FAX" buys the 500 mil skillbook and injects it - On the day, SP from Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration is moved to "Racial" Force Auxiliary. Training "Racial" Force Auxiliary from scratch, enables use of Triage module, possibly as a role bonus. Change over - There is no need for SP refunds as the pre required skills have already been trained by those who used Triage and therefore may wish to use a new Fax. The current Tactical Logistics Configuration skill gets turned into the "Racial" Force Auxiliary Skill. You still get a new line of ships with out pissing off existing players who have trained all the logistics skills by forcing them to train for a replacement ship to what they previously trained for. New (or old) players wishing to train for the Fax have a clear line of training that ends up taking no more time than existing players spent training for it. NB; Of course all other prerequisites for FAX would need to be met. My opinions are mine. If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1199	Posted - 2016.02.11 13:16:15 - [426] - Quote People wet themselves and think "zomg capital! must be expensive! you must be rich!" However given I can pick up a thanatos for about 90m more than a paladin......the reality is slightly different.
Major Trant CTRL-Q Spaceship Bebop 1426	Posted - 2016.02.11 13:48:23 - [427] - Quote Amarisen Gream wrote: First - If the player had the carrier skill injected they should have gotten the corresponding FAX skill for free. Not another 500 Million Second - The market cost for carriers and FAX would than be 250 Million each for a total of 500 Million. ^This CTRL-Q are recruiting - Gallente Faction Warfare, Small Gang, Low Sec PvP, New Player friendly Want to know the truth about low sec? Diary of a Low Sec Capsuleer
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1777	Posted - 2016.02.11 15:25:47 - [428] - Quote Converting a universal skill like tacticl logistics into racial fax confuses me and will still involve giving sp away to those with more than 1 carrier skill trained since one lower level skill will have to be converted to up to 4 racial FAX skills. Far simpler way would be renaming 'racial carrier' to 'racial capital support' and bring the redesigned carriers and new FAX machines under that class. Sure this doesnt allow for the FAX being a different class as per the design goal. But taking roles from a single class and making it 2 classes was a ****** design goal anyway. Would have worked fine on a clean slate, but not after thousands of characters have invested time in that role. So i would suggest 3 capital classes going forward; Racial 'dreadnought' to cover current and future high dps roles. Racial 'capital support' to cover logistics/specialised light and medium dps and other future fleet suport roles. Racial 'titan' to cover current and future ships at the end game of capabilities. Let each ships performance be based on its support sklls. Dreadnough based on tactocal wepon recon. New support skills can come with new features in the class. Capital support based on tactical logistic recon, drone and fighter skills. New drone roles and feature could be supported with new skills. I dont know enough about squadron types to know if or how many types can justify a new skill. I would suggest not asking people to train a new skill for any dps squadron roles though. Titan based on the titan skill and other support skills like jump portal/doomsday. If you add new fetures to the class feel free to add new skills to support them. TL;DR Only add new skills for new fetures that suppliment the game, not replace old ones, and people wont feel so cheated. ________________________________ Oh and convert command destroyers into T2 batttleships.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 1029	Posted - 2016.02.11 15:34:36 - [429] - Quote Just so I'm understanding this correctly.... 1. FAX is the new Capitol Logistics ship. 2. There is a Logistics Cruiser skill that allows you to fly T2 Logi cruisers. 3. There is a Logisitcs Frigate skill that allows you to fly T2 Logi frigates. 4. Each of those 2 skills allows you to fly 4 different ships provided you have the racial cruiser/frigate skill. Why then would there be 4 different racial FAX skills? Shouldn't it be one that allows you to fly all 4 (provided you have racial carrier trained)? And don't the new squadron skills add to the current drone skills you have, or are they replacing the fighters and fighter/bomber skills?
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1777	Posted - 2016.02.11 15:41:02 - [430] - Quote All the caps including the fax are T1 so follow racial limitations. Only T2 skills cross all races but even those require a racial skill to 5 in order to fly a ship. All the more reason to keep the redesigned carriers and the fax in the same class. Just like the bantam and merlin are the same class. And the moa and osprey are the same class.
Anthar Thebess 1451	Posted - 2016.02.11 15:45:35 - [431] - Quote My proposal, make all FAX dual bonus ships from skills. First skill is carrier skill. Racial carrier skill 1 is enough to fly a FAX. Non mandatory FAX skill grants 3% of capacitor capacity and recharge per level. (initially capacitor recharge is reduced by 12% , and capacity by 15% to all fax hulls) People can use both carriers at the start, but they need to buy and train FAX skill if they want to not have issues to cap in FAX hulls. For triage carriers - cap is love, cap is life. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1777	Posted - 2016.02.11 15:52:48 - [432] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: My proposal, make all FAX dual bonus ships from skills. First skill is carrier skill. Racial carrier skill 1 is enough to fly a FAX. Non mandatory FAX skill grants 3% of capacitor capacity and recharge per level. (initially capacitor recharge is reduced by 12% , and capacity by 15% to all fax hulls) People can use both carriers at the start, but they need to buy and train FAX skill if they want to not have issues to cap in FAX hulls. For triage carriers - cap is love, cap is life. So basically, to fix ccps terrible idea where people would have to train a new skill to retain their current apabilities, you suggest that people should have to train a new skill to retain their current capabilities? Im sure your argument will go something like 'yeah but you can at least fly it'. To which i will retort with 'ok but its like having carrier 5 taken away and replaced with carrier 1'. No new features, no new skills.
Ravcharas Infinite Point Northern Army 444	Posted - 2016.02.11 15:56:11 - [433] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: All the caps including the fax are T1 so follow racial limitations. Only T2 skills cross all races but even those require a racial skill to 5 in order to fly a ship. All the more reason to keep the redesigned carriers and the fax in the same class. Just like the bantam and merlin are the same class. And the moa and osprey are the same class. This would have been the simplest no fuss option, yes. If they absolutely, positively, needed to add more hoops to jump your hump through they could have made the fax machines t2 hulls I suppose, but the triage module adds to the skill queue on it's own as it is.
Amarisen Gream Divine Demise Apocalypse Now. 204	Posted - 2016.02.11 17:59:46 - [434] - Quote Reading through all this I come to one conclusion CCP fracked up like they did when reporting the new navy wear ships. CCP provides 1/2 the information players need to make proper judgment. What happens? CCP has big picture and they love what they see Players have half the picture or less and all they see is a donkey (aka a jack ass). So much of what CCP wants feedback on is worthless due to their (IMO) **** poor execution on putting things in a proper order. If they had give us the hard stats for carriers and the FAX - we as players can provide better feed back. CCP so needs to higher a PR person who the Devs would go to first so that guy can be like - so you want to provide information about a planned project that players have only tin foiled hatted upon - and all the information you are going to give them = about 10% of what the need to know. These players will eat you for breakfast and shat you out by dinner time. I have made similar post in response to CCP's road map as well as 6 week patch program... Seems I have once again been ignored. Guess as I don't have a degree in PR and only like 8 years in customer service I know nothing when it comes to presentation. Don't get me wrong CCP people, I love you all, there are just times I wonder if any of you taken class public speaking or public relations. Another analogy is this: you all gave us a million piece puzzle and took out all the edge pieces. "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 DIDE- is open to new members
Hound Halfhand Repo Industries 27	Posted - 2016.02.11 18:39:09 - [435] - Quote Amarisen Gream wrote: Reading through all this I come to one conclusion CCP fracked up like they did when reporting the new navy wear ships. CCP provides 1/2 the information players need to make proper judgment. What happens? CCP has big picture and they love what they see Players have half the picture or less and all they see is a donkey (aka a jack ass). So much of what CCP wants feedback on is worthless due to their (IMO) **** poor execution on putting things in a proper order. If they had give us the hard stats for carriers and the FAX - we as players can provide better feed back. CCP so needs to higher a PR person who the Devs would go to first so that guy can be like - so you want to provide information about a planned project that players have only tin foiled hatted upon - and all the information you are going to give them = about 10% of what the need to know. These players will eat you for breakfast and shat you out by dinner time. I have made similar post in response to CCP's road map as well as 6 week patch program... Seems I have once again been ignored. Guess as I don't have a degree in PR and only like 8 years in customer service I know nothing when it comes to presentation. Don't get me wrong CCP people, I love you all, there are just times I wonder if any of you taken class public speaking or public relations. Another analogy is this: you all gave us a million piece puzzle and took out all the edge pieces. Exactly. CCP needs to release the full stats of the Force Auxiliary Ships and they need to be glorious. Show us exactly what we are getting for all the additional train time. That will shut up a lot of the negativity. The main concern, of the people who just don't want free skill points that is, is that you will be spending a lot of time training for something that at best is shoddy version of the carriers.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1780	Posted - 2016.02.11 18:44:39 - [436] - Quote For those that seem to have missed it. CCP are rethinking how they are going to impliment the FAX with regard to skills.
Moloney Mass Effect Enterprises 197	Posted - 2016.02.11 21:16:45 - [437] - Quote 500mil skill book and 50+ days of training to maintain the ability to fly a ship that is being split in two. Another skill book and more time for fighter groups. I can already use fighters. Why would I train it again? Time and ISK for something that you are taking away from us. This feels like a slap in the face. You are splitting a ship that exists in half to make two inferior ships. If a character has a specific skill and you split the skills the character should get equal level in both skills. The very same, sound, logic you displayed when splitting the Battlcruiser skill tree. Where as when the Battle Cruiser was split by race and we were give all races to maintain the same capability. In this case you would be splitting by role. So the player would not receive both Carrier and Force Auxiliary for all races but they would get both Carrier and Forrce Auxiliary for the races that they already have Carrier trained for. Hence they would maintain their current capabilities within context of their available roles.
Seven Koskanaiken FinFleet Northern Coalition. 1699	Posted - 2016.02.11 22:25:07 - [438] - Quote Quote: [10:42] darren_fox - Although it might be a minor detail, I think what CCP is trying to do is to create Faux as a different capital type. We think if it as a carrier w/triage module, but in the vision (tm) it is a progression from T2 logistics ships. This is dubious. During the rebalance they could just as easily kept existing carriers as a sole-RR role and have the new ship be the combat-only variation, shifting all current carriers into the RR column on that ship matrix thing and having an empty space below supercarriers. In which case you'd have ratters in this thread complaining they have to train again to go back to their havens. It's just their existing model's arbitrary place that led to this decision (which in fact is probably the more painful on the players since new-carriers are "optional" or just "nice to have" in a fleet so theoretically everyone in the game could just forget about retraining them if they so chose, whereas triage is absolutely mandatory to have to field any cap/supers now)
Grath Telkin Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 2803	Posted - 2016.02.11 22:31:07 - [439] - Quote Moloney wrote: You are splitting a ship that exists in half to make two inferior ships. . Thats right, they've decided 1 ship is too strong and they're splitting it in half. You deserve nothing. If you want to fly it you'll train into it. You should be happy they're even thinking about giving you something because theres a lot of titan and supercap pilots in game who got deeply screwed over when their ship changed and they got NOTHING in return. Where were your objections then? Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1780	Posted - 2016.02.11 22:38:40 - [440] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: Moloney wrote: You are splitting a ship that exists in half to make two inferior ships. . Thats right, they've decided 1 ship is too strong and they're splitting it in half. You deserve nothing. If you want to fly it you'll train into it. You should be happy they're even thinking about giving you something because theres a lot of titan and supercap pilots in game who got deeply screwed over when their ship changed and they got NOTHING in return. Where were your objections then? They changed the ship and you had perfect skills for the ships new capabilities. They didnt introduce a level 14 'gallente mothership' skill. Theres a difference between a re-balance and a redesign which leaves the roles intact but people who have trained for those roles previously, unable to fill them due to a completely unnecessary set of new skills.
Sapegu the muppets Spartan Republic 6	Posted - 2016.02.12 00:06:47 - [441] - Quote Hi, I did not see this question asked, and i think it needs to be. In WH, will Capital escalations continue to keep the same, 2 dreds, 2 carriers, or the FA will do the trick instead of carriers?
Panther X High Flyers Northern Coalition. 108	Posted - 2016.02.12 00:16:57 - [442] - Quote Kallor Eidermann Tes'thesula wrote: Just let everyone with at least 1 carrier skill injected turn ALL the skill points on the entire character into unallocated points, so we can reevaluate our life choices when that patch comes out. At least when other ship skills split (and let's be honest, they are not adding a NEW ship, just splitting an existing one), there at least was some incentive to get more skill points, which people generally felt pretty happy about. Now all we get is an opportunity to waste tons of time training skills that have been added for no good reason, without knowing if it will be worth it until it is too late. Give people who have "Racial Carrier to X" an equal amount of skill points towards "Racial Force Auxiliary X". That way we don't lose anything. Make the fighters either Fighter = something and Fighter Bombers = something else, or be sensible and split them in the same way that light and medium drones were. I currently enjoy being able to fly all types of carriers, and I am not incredibly happy about the absolute ton of skill books I have to buy and training I have to do for no benefit over the current system. I'm pretty confident carriers will be really cool - but your improving your game is the reason I pay a subscription - I am not going to pay a subscription to play the game AND another one for your doing some much needed improvements. Why didnt they just make it a non racial skill like Marauder or other t2 ships. That makes sense. Wait...this IS ccp we are talking about. Never mind. My super smells of rich Corinthian Leather
Jessica Danikov Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 454	Posted - 2016.02.12 00:17:44 - [443] - Quote By later this week, I'm assuming you mean Friday as it's now Friday ;)
Very Aggressive Reacharound State War Academy Caldari State 13	Posted - 2016.02.12 02:37:25 - [444] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: For those that seem to have missed it. CCP are rethinking how they are going to impliment the FAX with regard to skills. ill believe it when I see it
Lilli Tane Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 23	Posted - 2016.02.12 09:43:19 - [445] - Quote How nice of you posting the 1000 module changes for March. Just a reminder, we still donGÇÖt know whatGÇÖs the plan is for FAX, How long it is going to take for us to fix our skills and what FAX machines we want to train forGÇª We really, really need to see the ships bonus
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 1097	Posted - 2016.02.12 12:01:58 - [446] - Quote What about the Light Fighter and Support Fighter skills? 12x for each? Really? That's preposterous.
Anthar Thebess 1454	Posted - 2016.02.12 12:21:25 - [447] - Quote Primary This Rifter wrote: What about the Light Fighter and Support Fighter skills? 12x for each? Really? That's preposterous. This is for new fighter type - light and support. Old skills will be used for other types of fighters. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2273	Posted - 2016.02.12 12:50:55 - [448] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Primary This Rifter wrote: What about the Light Fighter and Support Fighter skills? 12x for each? Really? That's preposterous. This is for new fighter type - light and support. Old skills will be used for other types of fighters. And the old drone skills will not be used... So once again, it is a massive SP sink to get back to roughly where we were before the patch. With that said, this one bothers me less than the Fleet Auxiliary skill... CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Alex Harumichi Icecream Audit Office 33	Posted - 2016.02.12 12:53:04 - [449] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: Primary This Rifter wrote: What about the Light Fighter and Support Fighter skills? 12x for each? Really? That's preposterous. This is for new fighter type - light and support. Old skills will be used for other types of fighters. And the old drone skills will not be used... So once again, it is a massive SP sink to get back to roughly where we were before the patch. With that said, this one bothers me less than the Fleet Auxiliary skill... Well, at least you're getting new functionality with the new fighter skills. You couldn't send your normal drones zooming around the whole system, like you'll be able to do with the new fighters (and I for one like the idea of specialized fighter types, for different sorts of ops).
Anthar Thebess 1454	Posted - 2016.02.12 12:54:27 - [450] - Quote I think they will be used. Probably i am wrong but i think each skill will allow you to better utilize each type of fighter. - Light Fighters - Fighters - Fighter Bombers - Support Fighters Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Marcus Tedric Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation 56	Posted - 2016.02.12 13:55:31 - [451] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: I think they will be used. Probably i am wrong but i think each skill will allow you to better utilize each type of fighter. - Light Fighters - Fighters - Fighter Bombers - Support Fighters My best guess: - Fighters changes to be like 'Drones' - and allows control of 1->5 of the new 'squads of fighters' - Fighter Bombers changes to the new 'Heavy Fighters' {Note - and I'm sure it changed between Tue & Thu somewhere - Light & Support Fighter skills only need Fighters I} Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Moloney Mass Effect Enterprises 198	Posted - 2016.02.12 15:04:36 - [452] - Quote If I am reading the new dev blog correctly: 1. The current carrier skills will be renamed 2. If you currently have, e.g Amarr Carrier skill at a specific level, you will be able to fly both Amarr Carrier and Amarr FAX at that level. If this is the case, Thank you.
Little Nicky Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 5	Posted - 2016.02.12 15:10:28 - [453] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Just so I'm understanding this correctly.... 1. FAX is the new Capitol Logistics ship. 2. There is a Logistics Cruiser skill that allows you to fly T2 Logi cruisers. 3. There is a Logisitcs Frigate skill that allows you to fly T2 Logi frigates. 4. Each of those 2 skills allows you to fly 4 different ships provided you have the racial cruiser/frigate skill. Why then would there be 4 different racial FAX skills? Shouldn't it be one that allows you to fly all 4 (provided you have racial carrier trained)? And don't the new squadron skills add to the current drone skills you have, or are they replacing the fighters and fighter/bomber skills? Good Questions...... and Im guessing there is more people out there feeling this way..
Amarisen Gream Divine Demise Apocalypse Now. 205	Posted - 2016.02.12 15:11:31 - [454] - Quote Was reading the blog - and as a no body with no capital ships. I have to say CCP I SUPPORT the new plan for FAXes. "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 DIDE- is open to new members
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1783	Posted - 2016.02.12 16:12:36 - [455] - Quote The new plan is fair. No free SP, no new skills for old roles (assuming the new class of fighter offers new funtionality that is not currently served by regular drones or existing fighters). A quick nod to the ever present forum warriors, in this thread and many others, who come to yell tears and tell people how useless it is to complain about bad ideas.
Lilli Tane Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 23	Posted - 2016.02.12 16:32:51 - [456] - Quote Agreed, The new plan makes a lot more sense
Terminator Cindy Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 28	Posted - 2016.02.12 20:39:02 - [457] - Quote It is soooooo funny reading some CCP brain teaching us about "commitment to change" when they explain yet another nerf coming ( refitting in space ). Believe me CCP, we have learned a lot about commitment to change from you already. In the past years we have seen you making change after change after change and then undo whatever you like. I understand you need to apply as many nerfs as possible to squeeze more RL USD/EUR etc from us, but please, at least have the decency and do not preach to us about COMMITMENT. You have no idea what that is.
Lord Mike007 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 10	Posted - 2016.02.12 20:42:49 - [458] - Quote Terminator Cindy wrote: It is soooooo funny reading some CCP brain teaching us about "commitment to change" when they explain yet another nerf coming ( refitting in space ). Believe me CCP, we have learned a lot about commitment to change from you already. In the past years we have seen you making change after change after change and then undo whatever you like. I understand you need to apply as many nerfs as possible to squeeze more RL USD/EUR etc from us, but please, at least have the decency and do not preach to us about COMMITMENT. You have no idea what that is. Wrong thread, but right.
Hound Halfhand Repo Industries 27	Posted - 2016.02.12 22:16:53 - [459] - Quote So basically you now have one skill (racial carrier) to fly 3 out of the 5 combat capital/super capital ships? They did this just because a few people on the forums whined about having to train a new skill? Ridiculous that one single ship skill is that important. IMO it should be 3 totally different skills. Capitals are the end game of EVE. Should be a long arduous train. Not a gimme like it appears to be now.
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2937	Posted - 2016.02.12 22:34:37 - [460] - Quote Terminator Cindy wrote: Commitment criticisms from a forum alt Ok
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1784	Posted - 2016.02.12 22:51:56 - [461] - Quote Hound Halfhand wrote: So basically you now have one skill (racial carrier) to fly 3 out of the 5 combat capital/super capital ships? They did this just because a few people on the forums whined about having to train a new skill? Ridiculous that one single ship skill is that important. IMO it should be 3 totally different skills. Capitals are the end game of EVE. Should be a long arduous train. Not a gimme like it appears to be now. Yes. We can now perform the same roles after citadel as we could before. Kind of like how i didnt have to train a new skill when they introduced the new destroyers. Were so entitled! The only cost to achieve this is to some arbitrary anal framework for cap progression that is based not on logic, but on someones ill thought out whim.
Hound Halfhand Repo Industries 28	Posted - 2016.02.13 17:27:43 - [462] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Hound Halfhand wrote: So basically you now have one skill (racial carrier) to fly 3 out of the 5 combat capital/super capital ships? They did this just because a few people on the forums whined about having to train a new skill? Ridiculous that one single ship skill is that important. IMO it should be 3 totally different skills. Capitals are the end game of EVE. Should be a long arduous train. Not a gimme like it appears to be now. Yes. We can now perform the same roles after citadel as we could before. Kind of like how i didnt have to train a new skill when they introduced the new destroyers or when they created T1 logistics cruisers. Were so entitled! The only cost to achieve this is to some arbitrary anal framework for cap progression that is based not on logic, but on someones ill thought out whim. Im sorry you are so angry that people dont have to train twice to do a particular role just because of 'one or two guys on the forum' lol. I hope that one day you find a game like eve where every now and then the devs set you back by a year of training just because some guy drew a progression chart that dramatically conflicts with the established structure of ship progression. Since you are very upset that ccp has decided to treat its loyal customers fairly, can i have your stuff? So you would be fine with 3/5s of the combat sub capital ships using one ship skill? So people wouldn't have to train a new skill to fly a DIFFERENT ship? Its not like the carrier skill would become worthless unlike what happens to other ship skills at times. It would be used to fly a very complex new style of PvP and likely ratting ship. EVE is as much about training skills as it is anything else. It is after all one of the main facets of progression in this game or at least a major perception of progression. The major capital update was a perfect time to address a over used capital skill ship. Now instead of spreading the capital ship functions over a variety of different ship skills they are consolidating it even further. I am sure catering to a few very vocal whiners on the forums is good for the future of EVE.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1787	Posted - 2016.02.13 19:55:07 - [463] - Quote Carrier will still be a racial skill, so the new racial carrier skill will cover you for 3/16 of the available caps. Throw support skills on top and caps still represent years of training. The way you present the numbers would imply that you have a problem with all t1 ship skills. After all, racial frigate enables you to fly 6/6 t1 frigs of that race and a couple of faction frigs too. The main point is that no new roles are being introduced so there is no justification for a new skill.
digitalwanderer DW inc 408	Posted - 2016.02.14 05:11:35 - [464] - Quote I don't really care that much, as i'm running out of skills to train in the ship command skill tree anyhow....:P I did buy the skills but just haven't plugged them in yet......So are the skills staying or are the whole force auxiliary ship idea about to disappear?
Sgt Ocker Kenshin. DARKNESS. 822	Posted - 2016.02.14 05:34:30 - [465] - Quote digitalwanderer wrote: I don't really care that much, as i'm running out of skills to train in the ship command skill tree anyhow....:P I did buy the skills but just haven't plugged them in yet......So are the skills staying or are the whole force auxiliary ship idea about to disappear? FAX is still a thing. You will get the isk back that you paid for the skillbooks and your carrier skills will be changed to represent both Carriers and Fax. NB; As of now, you will still need to train the new fighter skills but that may change too. Don't have enough information as yet on how fighters will work - Seems, carriers will only have 2 types of fighter at their disposal as Fighter Bomber skill is changing to Heavy Fighters. Which according to the blog can only be used by Supers, so no idea what will happen to existing fighters but fighter bombers are going away. Until Devs have worked out what is happening, they are unable to tell us but we have been told to pay for and train new skills without knowing WHY. My opinions are mine. If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Infinite Destruction Caldari Provisions Caldari State 28	Posted - 2016.02.16 04:13:17 - [466] - Quote incoming Dev post (promised "later this week" 8 days ago) in 9,999,999. 9,999,998. 9,999,997. 9,999,996. (Bored - couldn't be bothered with just typing "bump".)
Terminator Cindy Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 30	Posted - 2016.02.17 21:08:15 - [467] - Quote Infinite Destruction wrote: incoming Dev post (promised "later this week" 8 days ago) in 9,999,999. 9,999,998. 9,999,997. 9,999,996. (Bored - couldn't be bothered with just typing "bump".) They are COMMITTED.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 1053	Posted - 2016.02.17 22:05:01 - [468] - Quote Infinite Destruction wrote: incoming Dev post (promised "later this week" 8 days ago) in 9,999,999. 9,999,998. 9,999,997. 9,999,996. (Bored - couldn't be bothered with just typing "bump".) Wow, you really suck at forums. Dev Blog has been up since Feb 12, 2016. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/reworking-capital-ships-skills-modules-and-refitting/?_ga=1.76238741.1483790050.1453844871
Amarisen Gream Divine Demise Apocalypse Now. 209	Posted - 2016.02.18 04:28:33 - [469] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Infinite Destruction wrote: incoming Dev post (promised "later this week" 8 days ago) in 9,999,999. 9,999,998. 9,999,997. 9,999,996. (Bored - couldn't be bothered with just typing "bump".) Wow, you really suck at forums. Dev Blog has been up since Feb 12, 2016. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/reworking-capital-ships-skills-modules-and-refitting/?_ga=1.76238741.1483790050.1453844871 Thank you for posting that. I saw his/her post and wasn't sure if I could follow forum rules when posting it to make him/her aware. "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 DIDE- is open to new members
Sgt Ocker Kenshin. DARKNESS. 834	Posted - 2016.02.18 04:56:31 - [470] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Infinite Destruction wrote: incoming Dev post (promised "later this week" 8 days ago) in 9,999,999. 9,999,998. 9,999,997. 9,999,996. (Bored - couldn't be bothered with just typing "bump".) Wow, you really suck at forums. Dev Blog has been up since Feb 12, 2016. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/reworking-capital-ships-skills-modules-and-refitting/?_ga=1.76238741.1483790050.1453844871 It is a bit of a pity the blog is starting at the end rather than the beginning of the coming changes. For example; 10% bonus to capacitor booster charge strength Could be a nice bonus to have - Depending on what the standard boost strength is. Like, an additional 200 cap charge from 800s is a bit of a sham bonus. Unless it is based on a new capital module and charges that wasn't mentioned in the blog. My opinions are mine. If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Thercon Jair Nex Exercitus Memento Moriendo 9	Posted - 2016.02.18 14:11:04 - [471] - Quote Sgt Ocker wrote: It is a bit of a pity the blog is starting at the end rather than the beginning of the coming changes. For example; 10% bonus to capacitor booster charge strength Could be a nice bonus to have - Depending on what the standard boost strength is. Like, an additional 200 cap charge from 800s is a bit of a sham bonus. Unless it is based on a new capital module and charges that wasn't mentioned in the blog. It was mentioned somewhere that capital cap boosters were being introduced. Can't find the post anymore, but it is also strongly hinted at in this paragraph from the devblog: Capital Ancillary Shield Booster and Armor Repairer Replicating existing Small, Medium and Large Ancillary Shield Boosters & Armor Repairers. The Shield Boosters will require capital sized Cap Booster charges, while the Capital Ancillary Armor Repairer will still use Nanite Repair Paste. The armor versions of these modules will be limited to one per ship just like their smaller cousins.
Infinite Destruction Caldari Provisions Caldari State 29	Posted - 2016.02.19 03:55:11 - [472] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Infinite Destruction wrote: incoming Dev post (promised "later this week" 8 days ago) in 9,999,999. 9,999,998. 9,999,997. 9,999,996. (Bored - couldn't be bothered with just typing "bump".) Wow, you really suck at forums. Dev Blog has been up since Feb 12, 2016. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/reworking-capital-ships-skills-modules-and-refitting/?_ga=1.76238741.1483790050.1453844871 Thank you. I had been expecting a notification in this thread about it and hadn't seen anything noting a new blog had been released (too busy playing and training a skill that is now not needed apparently).
MP2008 Black Fox Marauders 14	Posted - 2016.02.19 18:45:38 - [473] - Quote Wait, I am confused. I have Amarr Carrier V and bought the Amarr FAX book and am training it up. I know CCP is going to refund the cost and SP. But I keep seeing weird things about losing Carrier SP. Am I going to have to choose between reallocating SP into Amarr Carrier or FAX? Amarr Carrier V is quite a long train. How does this work?
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2969	Posted - 2016.02.19 19:11:53 - [474] - Quote MP2008 wrote: Wait, I am confused. I have Amarr Carrier V and bought the Amarr FAX book and am training it up. I know CCP is going to refund the cost and SP. But I keep seeing weird things about losing Carrier SP. Am I going to have to choose between reallocating SP into Amarr Carrier or FAX? Amarr Carrier V is quite a long train. How does this work? You will get Amarr FAX at the same level as Amarr Carrier
MIKE Commander Setenta Corp AL3XAND3R. 9	Posted - 2016.02.20 10:17:34 - [475] - Quote Major Trant wrote: Amarisen Gream wrote: First - If the player had the carrier skill injected they should have gotten the corresponding FAX skill for free. Not another 500 Million Second - The market cost for carriers and FAX would than be 250 Million each for a total of 500 Million. ^This I support this.
Amarisen Gream Divine Demise Apocalypse Now. 210	Posted - 2016.02.20 10:53:05 - [476] - Quote MIKE Commander wrote: Major Trant wrote: Amarisen Gream wrote: First - If the player had the carrier skill injected they should have gotten the corresponding FAX skill for free. Not another 500 Million Second - The market cost for carriers and FAX would than be 250 Million each for a total of 500 Million. ^This I support this. Thanks, but as of the dev blog last week Carrier skill will be renamed and support carriers and FAXs. "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 DIDE- is open to new members
Hopia Ostus Hup Hop Hap 0	Posted - 2016.03.01 14:51:22 - [477] - Quote With the 'merge' of Faux and Carrier skills, will the Drone Interface V requirement change/disappear for carrier skills?
Minibren Remember The Fallen. Starkmanir Unification 2	Posted - 2016.03.02 16:34:26 - [478] - Quote Are carriers going to be able to apply a similar amount of DPS with fighters after the update?
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2307	Posted - 2016.03.02 23:13:29 - [479] - Quote Minibren wrote: Are carriers going to be able to apply a similar amount of DPS with fighters after the update? The CSM meeting notes seem to say, "Yes." CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
DrysonBennington Eagle's Talon's 270	Posted - 2016.03.10 19:39:47 - [480] - Quote Sentient Blade wrote: I am curious about the skill book prices in this regard. I would be hoping it would be closer to the dreadnaught skills than the carrier... otherwise that's going to suck up billions more. That's why it's called "Suck it up and make billions more."
Moltyr Caligno Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 0	Posted - 2016.04.23 20:06:48 - [481] - Quote CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin I haven't made my way through all of the pages, so forgive me if this has been asked before. For those who wish to stay with a carrier as opposed to FAUX, would it be possible to refund the SP accrued in skills such as Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration? I know the first response will probably be: "just extract those SP." However, you do lose some SP in the process of manually extracting/injecting.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2284	Posted - 2016.04.25 01:03:05 - [482] - Quote Moltyr Caligno wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin I haven't made my way through all of the pages, so forgive me if this has been asked before. For those who wish to stay with a carrier as opposed to FAUX, would it be possible to refund the SP accrued in skills such as Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration? I know the first response will probably be: "just extract those SP." However, you do lose some SP in the process of manually extracting/injecting. You trained that skill to use triage that skill still enables triage no refund warranted Citadel worm hole tax
Sgt Ocker Kenshin. DARKNESS. 926	Posted - 2016.04.25 01:42:40 - [483] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Moltyr Caligno wrote: CCP Larrikin wrote: Hi Mates, We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details. Cheers, CCP Larrikin I haven't made my way through all of the pages, so forgive me if this has been asked before. For those who wish to stay with a carrier as opposed to FAUX, would it be possible to refund the SP accrued in skills such as Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration? I know the first response will probably be: "just extract those SP." However, you do lose some SP in the process of manually extracting/injecting. You trained that skill to use triage that skill still enables triage no refund warranted I have to disagree. The skill was trained to use on carriers that were capable of repping a fleet member in a decent manner. I didn't spend months training skills to use an ineffective new class of ship that is designed to be all but disposable. CCP should offer full reimbursement of capital logistics skills - Or make capital logistics worth the cost and loss to fly. With the cost to buy and fit a capital logistics being more than a dread but with 80% (or more) less chance of surviving a fight - They need a lot of work. EDIT; CCP Larrikin; Over a month later, 2 days from release still no blog. My opinions are mine. If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Infinite Destruction Caldari Provisions Caldari State 29	Posted - 2016.04.25 14:21:32 - [484] - Quote Just read through the patch notes and I didn't see anything about getting the (racial) Force Auxiliary Skills reimbursed (points and cost of the books). The other blog (linked above) mentioned it and looked like it was meant to happen in the Citadel expansion but I don't see any mention of it.
Sgt Ocker Kenshin. DARKNESS. 926	Posted - 2016.04.26 01:55:16 - [485] - Quote Nope, no mention of reimbursing those who purchased and trained an irrelevant skill. Maybe it will just happen and be added to patch notes later - There isn't really a lot in the patch notes. My opinions are mine. If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Ncc 1709 Fusion Enterprises Ltd Badfellas Inc. 274	Posted - 2016.04.26 10:15:53 - [486] - Quote any update with this?
Sgt Ocker Kenshin. DARKNESS. 927	Posted - 2016.04.26 18:43:36 - [487] - Quote Ncc 1709 wrote: any update with this? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an update - Seems we have another Fozzie on our hands with Larrikin, they'll only respond to threads they start within the first week, sometimes two, then it is off their watch lists and forgotten. Player feedback is irrelevant (unless posted on R/e), so posting here on a 2 month old thread - well you can work it out..... My opinions are mine. If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Chatu Aknot Ra Rapid Withdrawal 0	Posted - 2016.04.26 19:16:28 - [488] - Quote Sgt Ocker wrote: Ncc 1709 wrote: any update with this? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an update - Seems we have another Fozzie on our hands with Larrikin, they'll only respond to threads they start within the first week, sometimes two, then it is off their watch lists and forgotten. Player feedback is irrelevant (unless posted on R/e), so posting here on a 2 month old thread - well you can work it out..... Different thread... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6457659&_ga=1.196739948.1345461426.1456450215#post6457659
Al'thea Bringers of Chaos 1	Posted - 2016.04.30 00:06:48 - [489] - Quote What's the purpose behind the F.A. Skills if the ships themselves don't require them in order to be flown? The skills are ambiguous in what they improve for F.A. ships and no stat improvements show. I missed a memo somewhere... O_o Edit: memo found: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6457659&_ga=1.196739948.1345461426.1456450215#post6457659 "We were planning to refund all isk spent and sp trained in the now defunct Force Auxiliary skills along with this conversion. However we have encountered some complications that mean that we do not feel confident delivering this tomorrow. This will still happen in the coming weeks (Or at the latest by the next release). Sorry for any inconvenience this may cause!" - CCP Lebowski Well then... Time to stop training those skills. headdesk

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