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Thermodynamic's Reduce to Energy Management 4 please! (First Whine)

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sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:10:00 - [181] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Tenebrion Darkness No "we" (I would probably not be considered a vet) just get disgruntled when players ask for things to be easier when in many ways they already are. It isn't about it being easier. It takes no "skill" to have to wait around for another three weeks of training. More like annoying and unnecessary. At least that is how I view it. Lets face it, eventually, most of us are going to get it trained anyway. As it is now, I just view it as an unnecessary time sink. Yes, this just happens with every other skill past the basic ones and does that mean they all have to be changed? _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:10:00 - [182] Originally by: Hasak Rain It is the Vets who are jealous and resentful of the newer players in other words. I assume you don't have any problems with veteran players making generalizing statements about new players, right? The prerequisitss for Thermo didn't affect me since I have them all anyway. But I did look at them, and was quite surprised at how high they were. The skills in question are pretty beneficial to any player to have at those levels anyway. My surprise came from the requirements being so high for something which is front-and-center in the UI for everyone, regardless of character age. You can see temp gauges and overheat toggles all over the place, visible even with the smallest guns in the game. The curious will see it and want to try it out, but then look at the requirements and probably focus their training elsewhere. Then again, one could say the same thing about capital ships, tech 2 gear, etc. It could be a prenerf like with Salvaging. Or it could just be in-line with the way EVE is, something which EVE is -- rightly -- unapologetic for. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Konquera McCall Acme Import Export	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:10:00 - [183] Edited by: Konquera McCall on 20/06/2007 13:12:30 Originally by: Alex Tremayne And I'm saying that 'heat' is not and should not be new player content. I understand that many people here disagree, but to me it does come across as the sort of thing that only experienced pilots should be trying. I agree. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that was communicated effectively by CCP - somewhat the opposite in fact. And perhaps that's the cause of the disappointment. It's like opening a new toy at Christmas, finding out it requires batteries, and then finding out that your parents didn't buy batteries! I also agree with the posts that more or less stated that training EM to 5 will be more worthwhile than heat itself. You can't go wrong with EM 5. Though you should train your other basics to 4 before moving that one to 5. edited for quote correction.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:12:00 - [184] Originally by: Zeko Rena Edited by: Zeko Rena on 20/06/2007 13:06:01 Quote: It is the Vets who are jealous and resentful of the newer players in other words. Omg how did you know, im so jelous you will never have as much sp as me, my secret is out, im doomed now... fellow vets... please, support me, hug me, tell me its all going to be okay please! I dont know if i can go on.... now my secrets out... whats left for me... Seriously tho, why would vets be jelous, to be honest i dont care if charecters who havent been in EVE as long as me can use ships/equipment i cant, i just dont see why so many players want to try to skip the queue and get everything now rather then working for it, it will make it so much more gratifying when you get there. Oh by the way i have all the skills required but im not even going to bother learning this skill yet, lawl I don't consider having to train EM 4 as getting Heat "now" or immediately. Especially when you factor in that you train another skill right after. Even if a noob were to get Heat easily, why would you care? It isn't like he can do much with it. Do you think he is going to blow up your ship with his lvl 1 mission running Frigate because he has Heat? My point is everyone is saying how Heat is such a minor feature. Okay, if it is so minor....why the steep training requirement then?
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:14:00 - [185] Luckily I am Amarr and trained up these requirements from the moment I started playing. I can finally be happy that I'm Amarr and everyone whines!!!
Zeko Rena Caldari Tangent Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:16:00 - [186] Quote: My point is everyone is saying how Heat is such a minor feature. Okay, if it is so minor....why the steep training requirement then? My only guess can be that it might be rather expensive to repair your destroyed modules, although im not sure, i could see new players ending up going "i blew up all my modules with heat and cant afford to repair them" Thats the only reason i could think of for making it high, apart from that, prehaps CCP dont want everyone having heat right away, who knows. -------------------------- Har Har, sig is finnaly mod proof.
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:18:00 - [187] Edited by: La Tortura on 20/06/2007 13:20:49 Edited by: La Tortura on 20/06/2007 13:20:14 Edited by: La Tortura on 20/06/2007 13:19:45 Edited by: La Tortura on 20/06/2007 13:19:11 I agree, requirements are too harsh and out of way. Yes, a lot of things in eve takes time and have to take time to use. But "Heat" is not just another ship or shiny module. It is functionality, which is now locked from new players. Compare You can not pvp in recons right away, but you can pvp You can not create a large society like large alliance right away but you can create a society - corporation You can not build T2 shiny stuff right away but you can build cheap modules and T1 ships You can not shoot from T2 large guns with T2 large ammo, but you can shoot You can not anchor outposts right away, but you can anchor POS's You can not do lvl 4 missions, but you can do missions, lvl 1 tho. Almost all functionality of eve is open to new players from the beginning. The "Heat" is not, not in any way. And to those who thing that Energy Management is such a nesessary stuff I would say stfu. Minmatars don't need it, at least not in their first 25M sp, period. Now they do need of course, it is 2 weeks of training of useless skill. Thank you very much. -- ignorance is bliss
Zeko Rena Caldari Tangent Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:22:00 - [188] Quote: Compare You can not pvp in recons right away, but you can pvp You can not create a large society like large alliance right away but you can create a society - corporation You can not build T2 shiny stuff right away but you can build cheap modules and T1 ships You can not shoot from T2 large guns with T2 large ammo, but you can shoot You can not anchor outposts right away, but you can anchor POS's You can not do lvl 4 missions, but you can do missions, lvl 1 tho. Haha, this is funny, i especially like the outpost one, yes, i see lots of new players setting up POS's all the time. I like your signiture, its very fitting. -------------------------- Har Har, sig is finnaly mod proof.
Neaghan Grebs Aerial Boundaries Inc. Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:22:00 - [189] In my opinion the whole point of EVE is to strive to improve your character and make them as close to equal with the characters older than you as possible. This character is a few days from being a year old and I still don't have many of the "basic" skills. I don't expect the fight to be on a level playing field if I meet a 2004 player out in space. That's all part of the game, don't expect to beat these guys unless you've put some heavy time into areas pretty specially and can fly your ship really well. Heat is just another extension of this, something to aim for that will boost your characters abilities, it shouldn't be just given to everyone. Did you get T2 gear right away? (Ok I admit it is damn near possible now with new characters )
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:23:00 - [190] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 13:22:05 Originally by: Zeko Rena Quote: My point is everyone is saying how Heat is such a minor feature. Okay, if it is so minor....why the steep training requirement then? My only guess can be that it might be rather expensive to repair your destroyed modules, although im not sure, i could see new players ending up going "i blew up all my modules with heat and cant afford to repair them" Thats the only reason i could think of for making it high, apart from that, prehaps CCP dont want everyone having heat right away, who knows. That is a good point. However, I would think if a noob overheated his modules, the repair of Frig mods wouldn't be that high. That aside, it is no different than a noob wandering off in low sec in his frig and getting ganked. He loses the ship and has no isk to replace it. Should we shut off low sec to noobs too because they might get killed and lose money? Of course not. It is no different with Heat, they use it at their own risk.
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:23:00 - [191] Originally by: Zeko Rena Haha, this is funny, i especially like the outpost one, yes, i see lots of new players setting up POS's all the time. You're stupid or what? They _can_ do it, period. -- ignorance is bliss
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:24:00 - [192] Originally by: Cornucopian Edited by: Cornucopian on 20/06/2007 13:02:03 this thread is sooooo sad. this is EVE ffs! everything takes time! shaddap with the whining!!! to refine the point: I'm a NOOB! yes people, I'm not a vet or anything. been playing EVE for about 1.5 months. and the VERY first thing I thought when I looked at the skill tree was: omfgthisgameis COOOL!! I could be training myself for years to come..... I wont be even thinking of flying carrier for the first half year! oh my god this game rocks! I've been here a month and a half and I'm already dying of irritation from all the "please please please nerf/boost/change/make/give" posts. now, to make the most deadly comparison of all: to mean something in wow you need to be lvl70. then you can start competing. If we do things your way, OP, then you would have 30K titans on concurrently, fighting only for the factiongear (i.e. tier x raid set) so please. shaddap. quite eve, go away, play hello kitty online. die. leave. ] STFU you WoW reject, you come on here after 1 an a half months an tell me to leave/quit EvE, get to ****. It's not like im askin for a big thing either, you know the original Drake whiners, who got the Caldaris most powerful tanking ship (for it's size), nerfed, oh ye you might not know about that either.. It's not like im asking for MS's to not be immune to EW.. Then again you may have nto seen 1 of them either.. Im asking a simple request, to low the requirement from level 5 to level 4.... And from someone who says "shaddup", you little buttmunch... Go an grow some pubes
Zeko Rena Caldari Tangent Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:25:00 - [193] Quote: You're stupid or what? They _can_ do it, period. Yes its possible skill wise, but its no way possible isk wise, so what your basically saying is, lower the skill requirement so they can train up the skill to use heat, and have a happy warm feeling, but they will never be able to afford to use it anyway? -------------------------- Har Har, sig is finnaly mod proof.
Zeko Rena Caldari Tangent Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:27:00 - [194] Edited by: Zeko Rena on 20/06/2007 13:27:26 Quote: That aside, it is no different than a noob wandering off in low sec in his frig and getting ganked. He loses the ship and has no isk to replace it. Should we shut off low sec to noobs too because they might get killed and lose money? Of course not. It is no different with Heat, they use it at their own risk. This is true, but when you lose your only ship you get a free new one, if you blow up your modules from over heating you may not be able to get given free modules again, which i guess means you would have to go into low sec, get blown up and get a new ship, suppose its possible, if you got really stuck. -------------------------- Har Har, sig is finnaly mod proof.
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:31:00 - [195] Originally by: Zeko Rena Quote: You're stupid or what? They _can_ do it, period. Yes its possible skill wise, but its no way possible isk wise, so what your basically saying is, lower the skill requirement so they can train up the skill to use heat, and have a happy warm feeling, but they will never be able to afford to use it anyway? Lol? It is very possible isk wise to anchor a pos in the first month of playing, well, in 2 months at most, if the person really wants it, without gimping the experience in other areas of gameplay. What I want to say is that newer people shouldn't have prohibitive skill restrictions just to have a chance to test the basic functionality of the game. And yes, the Heat is a very basic functionality, it is on the splash place of the interface. -- ignorance is bliss
Melissa Ravenflame Caldari Zulu Squadron	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:33:00 - [196] I'm not really sure why new players would want to use Heat other than the 'Ooh its shiny and new and I want it'. After all, new players have enough to cope with in terms of learning how the game is played. If they don't know PvP very well then have a few cycles of extra oomph isn't going to help them. Rather, it's going to over complicate things and turn them off the game. By the time they get to the point where overloading their modules is actualy going to be of benefit then the skills requirements will not seem quite so severe as they will be a long way down the road already.
Big Al Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:35:00 - [197] Make it level 2 so that people will continue not training up this vital skill so they are easier to kill.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:35:00 - [198] Originally by: La Tortura What I want to say is that newer people shouldn't have prohibitive skill restrictions just to have a chance to test the basic functionality of the game. And yes, the Heat is a very basic functionality, it is on the splash place of the interface. How does one lead to the other? Just because CCP buggered up the UI again does not make heat 'basic functionality'. It just makes the UI buggered up. Again. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:37:00 - [199] Edited by: Amy Wang on 20/06/2007 13:38:10 Just reducing energy management requirement to 4 will make obtaining the skill too easy as eng. 5 is mandatory anyway and science 4 is not a big deal. How about energy systems operation 5 or maybe that and science 5? Or another 1-2 rank1 skills to 5, still better then a rank 3 to 5. Then again energy management 5 is a pretty useful skill to have so its not all that bad, certainly no comparison to survey 5 (once needed for salvaging) or logistics 5 (currently needed for triage module). The comparison with salvaging is moot anyway as that is supposed to be a profession for younger players where overheating is a more advanced thing to have imho.
Zeko Rena Caldari Tangent Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:37:00 - [200] Quote: Make it level 2 so that people will continue not training up this vital skill so they are easier to kill. Good point -------------------------- Har Har, sig is finnaly mod proof.
Razvedchitsa	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:38:00 - [201] next week special: Massive Whinage of lvl 5 Mission Runners Ganked by Pirates.
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:39:00 - [202] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: La Tortura What I want to say is that newer people shouldn't have prohibitive skill restrictions just to have a chance to test the basic functionality of the game. And yes, the Heat is a very basic functionality, it is on the splash place of the interface. How does one lead to the other? Just because CCP buggered up the UI again does not make heat 'basic functionality'. It just makes the UI buggered up. Again. Whatever, it can be used in any ship in the game, on almost any active module, regardless of player specialisation. This is def basic functionality. -- ignorance is bliss
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:39:00 - [203] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Mica Swanhaven Mica says... so you want Thermodynamics to be a rank 5 skill? will that make you happy? Rank 5 works for me. [/quote same :) lus is would make more sence I mean CCP tried to be nice but seeing the way things are going lets make it harder to train :D
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:41:00 - [204] Originally by: Melissa Ravenflame I'm not really sure why new players would want to use Heat other than the 'Ooh its shiny and new and I want it'. After all, new players have enough to cope with in terms of learning how the game is played. If they don't know PvP very well then have a few cycles of extra oomph isn't going to help them. Rather, it's going to over complicate things and turn them off the game. By the time they get to the point where overloading their modules is actualy going to be of benefit then the skills requirements will not seem quite so severe as they will be a long way down the road already. In spite of some of the things i said, I agree that it isn't a feature that noobs should have right off the bat or even a month or two into the game. I guess I would feel better about it if they put it on a rank 2 skill instead of a 3. As it is now, many intermediate players who have a decent grasp on the game {such as myself} don't have Energy Management 5 yet and I feel that at my lvl of experience and where I am in terms of skills in the game that I shouldn't be starting at a 2-3 week training period to get this thing. Especially since the player base is trying to convince everyone how minor a feature it is. For the time it takes to train for Heat, I can almost train to fly Hacs.
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:47:00 - [205] What I would do is making a specialisation in Thermodynamics. Basic Thermo should work as is, and should have a EM-4 or even EM-2 as prerequisite. Andvanced Thermo could have lvl 5 as prereq in both energy skills, have rank 8-12 and, for example, change graph of deterioration of module from linear to parabolic. eg, with Thermo Spec the first few cycles of overloading would do a little of damage, rest will do more and more. This is just for example. -- ignorance is bliss
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:49:00 - [206] Originally by: La Tortura Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: La Tortura What I want to say is that newer people shouldn't have prohibitive skill restrictions just to have a chance to test the basic functionality of the game. And yes, the Heat is a very basic functionality, it is on the splash place of the interface. How does one lead to the other? Just because CCP buggered up the UI again does not make heat 'basic functionality'. It just makes the UI buggered up. Again. Whatever, it can be used in any ship in the game, on almost any active module, regardless of player specialisation. This is def basic functionality. It's usable on any ship, sure. It's worth using on a very limited set of modules in an even more limited set of circumstances and stands a good chance of doing quite a lot of damage to your ship if you don't know what you're doing. It's a piece of niche funtionality that has been indiscriminately bolted onto the UI in a rather annoying way that you can't get rid of. New players should not be using it, they will only get themselves killed and/or lose themselves ISK. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
torswin Caldari Capital Productions Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:50:00 - [207] I dont really see the problem. Energy Management 5 is a VERY good skill to have anyway, 'cause everyone should have maxed cap skills imo... In combat that's the one that keeps you alive you know :) ---
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:53:00 - [208] Originally by: torswin I dont really see the problem. Energy Management 5 is a VERY good skill to have anyway, 'cause everyone should have maxed cap skills imo... In combat that's the one that keeps you alive you know :) stage whispers I've been telling them that, but they aren't listening. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Melissa Ravenflame Caldari Zulu Squadron	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:54:00 - [209] Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 13:45:07 ... Especially since the player base is trying to convince everyone how minor a feature it is... I think Heat is a minor feature for new players. When you have a very good grasp of PvP then it is anything but a minor feature. I think considering Heat is a step along the path to T3 mods then having a level 3 skill to 5 isn't asking too much. Look at the requirements for T2 guns and in comparison it's actualy a pretty low set of skills to get on the first rung of T3.
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:54:00 - [210] Edited by: La Tortura on 20/06/2007 13:54:00 Originally by: Alex Tremayne It's usable on any ship, sure. It's worth using on a very limited set of modules in an even more limited set of circumstances and stands a good chance of doing quite a lot of damage to your ship if you don't know what you're doing. It's a piece of niche funtionality that has been indiscriminately bolted onto the UI in a rather annoying way that you can't get rid of. New players should not be using it, they will only get themselves killed and/or lose themselves ISK. Well, of course, it is not that useful, as manufacturing of rockets isn't very useful and pvping in an ibis isn't that useful too. Of course it is more useful on a MWD of a vaga caught in a bubble camp than on a 150mm AC of a newbee pve rifter. But new players should be able to at least try it, as they see that feature every minute they playing the game. Moreover, in some cases it could be useful even for a fairly new players, like, for example, overloading a webber on a tackling fregate. -- ignorance is bliss

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