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Thermodynamic's Reduce to Energy Management 4 please! (First Whine)

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Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:33:00 - [121] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Cpt Fina The required skills for TD are fine imo. What should be shanged is the UI for when you haven't trained the skill yet. They should change the UI for when you have too. Damn but it takes up space. A fully customable UI should be implemented ASAP!
Lyn Bunnions	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:38:00 - [122] You can successfully rat in 0.0/do L4s as a 3 month old noob in a BC/BS. You won't have the needed skills to do that if you waste time on getting every skill to V just because the "old boys" say that you need to. If you would say that a noob who can't even use T2 small weapons needs in any way shape or form to train EM V/El V/Eng V and a dozen other skills you are out of your mind. You train skills to fit your ship and fly it. The only "must-have" skills are the ones that allow you to complete your current goals as fast as possible. If you want to start making cash fast you get a bunch of decent tank/damage/cap/fitting skills to 3-4 and focus on getting into a BC/BS. I've been running L4s since I was 2 months old and I still don't have large hybrids even trained for BECAUSE THEY ARE USELESS for the fitting I fly(and I hate pvping in a BS with a passion). Everyone acting as if you should have cap pilot level skills by the time you pop into a cruiser must have absurd amounts of patience with tedious Empire ****. EM V is a silly time-sink with moderate benefits at best and no benefits for most people in most situations.
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:39:00 - [123] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Hasak Rain I am not saying it isn't worth training. I think it is a very good skill to get. However, a newer player who has a stack of skills piling up just so he can fly something like a Cruiser or a BC effectively isn't going to want to take 3 weeks out of that training to do this. If he does, he is pushed even further behind. And I'm saying that 'heat' is not and should not be new player content. I understand that many people here disagree, but to me it does come across as the sort of thing that only experienced pilots should be trying. Originally by: Hasak Rain Whatever you tell your corpmates is fine but I never seen anyone tell anyone on this board or any other that EM 5 is a "must get" as soon as possible. Especially never seen it said to a newer player. I don't doubt you, I've not looked at those boards for years so I can't comment but sentiment in this thread seems to bear you out on that point. I just don't happen to agree with you. I will use myself as an example: I am not that new to the game {10M SPs} and I do some PvP and PvE. I never thought to myself "Wow, I am really hurting because I don't have that EM 5 trained yet." I have even {gasp} killed people without it. Would I be better off with EM5?....yep. Do I need it to PvP and win?......nope. Oh and the "sentiment in this thread" is loaded with vets who are telling newer players to "suck it up" since they themselves already have the skill trained. {big surprise there.} It is pretty easy to say that at that point. I wouldn't put any stock into the overall sentiment of this thread since the vets want to keep their "elite status" and the easy way to do that is to have things that others do not have. Oh and it is okay that you disagree with me. That is what these boards are for. This issue really isn't THAT important to me because EM 5 was high on my "to do list" anyway but I am drinking a lot of coffee and it is downtime so I am just discussing it and agree with those in the same boat as I am. Well said, I probably couldn't say it better myself, apart from a few swear words here an there
Santa Anna	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:40:00 - [124] Originally by: ghosttr Heat is not a mini-profession, I dont see you being a professional as 'oh **** im going to die, lets blow out my guns so i have a chance to save my ass. While some may use heat as a last-ditch survival failsafe, it's more practical applications involve ewar/propulsion jamming. IMO, the skill requirement should be high so that adoption will be gradual. If everyone had 13km 90% webs and 30km warp disruptors overnight can you imagine the whineage volume on the forums?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:40:00 - [125] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Personally? I wouldn't recommend a new character move from destroyers to cruisers without getting engineering, electronics and both cap skills to 5 and most of the rest of the engineering and basic electronics skills to 4. Oh and the seven non jump drive related navigation skills to at least 4, and if Caldari getting the shield hp and shield recharge skills to 5 too. So about 5 mil SP at least. That's off the top of my head so I've almost certainly missed things there. And zero weapon skills and zero learning skills. No armortanking skills either. Sounds VERY effective
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:42:00 - [126] Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. Shouldn't be available 'instantly' as you say. but it should not take extreme amounts of time either. LV4 as requirements is fine, that means that will probably end up investing about 1-2 weeks of time, which is feasible for a newer 1-month-1 1/2 months is not as feasible. If you think a Rank 3 skill to level 5 is "extreme", then... well, never mind, you'll soon find out. People in this thread are talking as if Heat is some sine qua non - not a last ditch option for someone who's probably doomed anyway. Why not wait to see how it pans out before crying that you have to wait a couple of weeks for it?
Drykor Minmatar Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:43:00 - [127] Seriously, it's not your god-given right to be able to train new skills instantly. They promote Eve with capitals too and you won't fly those in the first year either. Personally I don't have EM 5 yet, my char is slightly over 8 months old and specced for interceptors. This skill was however planned for late july, and I don't think I'm even going to move it forward in my skillplan. Heat is something the new people really don't _need_, there's plenty of other stuff to find out about. If you really want it, then just train the bloody pre-req.
Razvedchitsa	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:46:00 - [128] LOLer skaters. I KNEW this one is coming. Comrades, keep the volume of whinage high enough and you will get reqs lowered.
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:46:00 - [129] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. Shouldn't be available 'instantly' as you say. but it should not take extreme amounts of time either. LV4 as requirements is fine, that means that will probably end up investing about 1-2 weeks of time, which is feasible for a newer 1-month-1 1/2 months is not as feasible. If you think a Rank 3 skill to level 5 is "extreme", then... well, never mind, you'll soon find out. People in this thread are talking as if Heat is some sine qua non - not a last ditch option for someone who's probably doomed anyway. Why not wait to see how it pans out before crying that you have to wait a couple of weeks for it? I aint even used it, but i kno witht he right amount of experience with it, you can become an use the modules effectively an to your advantage. Not just as a oh fuk moment.
Jdestars Stars Research systems Incorporation	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:47:00 - [130] I hope that CCP is not going to give up to the weeping and to lower the prerequired of this skill.Rolling Eyes Eve is one games where one have to choose even this it have to pass by a specialization you can use overheat without this skill , but if you want to become power full , pay the price ;) noob want to flying with all vessel, Eve are not a game for roxxor.. i'd play to Eve since almost 4 year and ihavent energy management V , 10d for obtain its not the end of the world ...
Lyn Bunnions	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:48:00 - [131] Whatever happens I hope there is a skill that is required to use Heat. That way I can not train it and never accidentally activate the ******. Drone boats in missions or PvP have pretty much 0 need of it so meh
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:51:00 - [132] Originally by: Jdestars I hope that CCP is not going to give up to the weeping and to lower the prerequired of this skill.Rolling Eyes Eve is one games where one have to choose even this it have to pass by a specialization you can use overheat without this skill , but if you want to become power full , pay the price ;) noob want to flying with all vessel, Eve are not a game for roxxor.. i'd play to Eve since almost 4 year and ihavent energy management V , 10d for obtain its not the end of the world ... Here we go again, another 1-2year+ vet, who has most skills like trained for, who doesnt have to worry too much about giving up the "10" (you must have nice attributes, for a rank3 skills to take 10 days to train) days to train EM 5.
Edania Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes Edge Of Sanity	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:51:00 - [133] Originally by: Jdestars I hope that CCP is not going to give up to the weeping and to lower the prerequired of this skill.Rolling Eyes Eve is one games where one have to choose even this it have to pass by a specialization you can use overheat without this skill , but if you want to become power full , pay the price ;) noob want to flying with all vessel, Eve are not a game for roxxor.. i'd play to Eve since almost 4 year and ihavent energy management V , 10d for obtain its not the end of the world ... fraid not, if it worked this way no-one would give a flying pidgeon however you need it at 1 to overheat Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:52:00 - [134] Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Alex Tremayne Personally? I wouldn't recommend a new character move from destroyers to cruisers without getting engineering, electronics and both cap skills to 5 and most of the rest of the engineering and basic electronics skills to 4. Oh and the seven non jump drive related navigation skills to at least 4, and if Caldari getting the shield hp and shield recharge skills to 5 too. So about 5 mil SP at least. That's off the top of my head so I've almost certainly missed things there. I'm aware that this makes me a lone voice in the wilderness. So your telling me when you was a noob, you trained all them skills before you moved to a cruiser, get real.... On this character? No, and I regretted it. On my second character, (now around 20mil SP) I learned from my mistakes and didn't train cruisers until I had 8mil SP rounding out all the Eng/Elec/Nav/Mech support skills. The support skills are so much more important than learning new shiny ships and guns. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:53:00 - [135] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 11:53:28 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. Shouldn't be available 'instantly' as you say. but it should not take extreme amounts of time either. LV4 as requirements is fine, that means that will probably end up investing about 1-2 weeks of time, which is feasible for a newer 1-month-1 1/2 months is not as feasible. If you think a Rank 3 skill to level 5 is "extreme", then... well, never mind, you'll soon find out. People in this thread are talking as if Heat is some sine qua non - not a last ditch option for someone who's probably doomed anyway. Why not wait to see how it pans out before crying that you have to wait a couple of weeks for it? To newer players, it is extreme. It will take me two weeks to get from EM4 to EM5. That being with 100 mill in implants and over 1 Mill in Learning SPs. Someone who does not have that stuff is probably staring at around a month's worth of training. Yes something like BS 5 is much worse in terms of training but being able to have all your bonuses on the biggest non capital in the game and being able to use a small feature like Heat are two different things. In other words, the skills that you are referring to SHOULD be more extreme since training them gives you so much more.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:53:00 - [136] Na'Kunni, If you think that other skills are more important than EM V and that they should be trained before..... THEN TRAIN THEM! It's not very complicated.
Santa Anna	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:55:00 - [137] Originally by: Malcanis People in this thread are talking as if Heat is some sine qua non - not a last ditch option for someone who's probably doomed anyway. I know it was pitched that way in one of the live dev blogs, but the way it's been implemented doesn't reflect that initial description. Check out what you can do with the mid slot modules and how much damage a mwd can absorb before it goes inactive when it's not being overloaded. Overloaded mid-slots are definitely offensive weapons. Overloading your repper in an attempt to not die will just kill your cap -- if you're going to die you're going to die. Overloading your weapons will burn them out pretty quickly. Overloading your shield booster will pretty much kill you if you fit an amp. Overloading a web or a scram lets you get a fight from someone who otherwise would have escaped. People who use heat well will get a lot more kills, especially early on. That's why it has to have a steep skill requirement.
Jdestars Stars Research systems Incorporation	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:56:00 - [138] i'mp a scientic with good mem/int but poor will/perc its a choice that i pay in other skill ;) change balancing skill system because some ppl are impatient are always a bad choice ;)
Valan	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:01:00 - [139] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Hasak Rain I am not saying it isn't worth training. I think it is a very good skill to get. However, a newer player who has a stack of skills piling up just so he can fly something like a Cruiser or a BC effectively isn't going to want to take 3 weeks out of that training to do this. If he does, he is pushed even further behind. And I'm saying that 'heat' is not and should not be new player content. I understand that many people here disagree, but to me it does come across as the sort of thing that only experienced pilots should be trying. Originally by: Hasak Rain Whatever you tell your corpmates is fine but I never seen anyone tell anyone on this board or any other that EM 5 is a "must get" as soon as possible. Especially never seen it said to a newer player. I don't doubt you, I've not looked at those boards for years so I can't comment but sentiment in this thread seems to bear you out on that point. I just don't happen to agree with you. I will use myself as an example: I am not that new to the game {10M SPs} and I do some PvP and PvE. I never thought to myself "Wow, I am really hurting because I don't have that EM 5 trained yet." I have even {gasp} killed people without it. Would I be better off with EM5?....yep. Do I need it to PvP and win?......nope. Oh and the "sentiment in this thread" is loaded with vets who are telling newer players to "suck it up" since they themselves already have the skill trained. {big surprise there.} It is pretty easy to say that at that point. I wouldn't put any stock into the overall sentiment of this thread since the vets want to keep their "elite status" and the easy way to do that is to have things that others do not have. Oh and it is okay that you disagree with me. That is what these boards are for. This issue really isn't THAT important to me because EM 5 was high on my "to do list" anyway but I am drinking a lot of coffee and it is downtime so I am just discussing it and agree with those in the same boat as I am. To be honest I've said numerous times to numerous people that engineering is one of the most important categories to have. See if you can find one og Tank CEOs threads from back in the day and see how many skill points he has in engineering and how many he had in gunnery. He was considered one of the best PvPers around at the time. I wouldn't rate the thermal damage skill over any of the engineering skills. Especially for 0.0 if you kill a module in deep 0.0 you're buggered. Out of interest has there been any mention of a module repair module? /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:03:00 - [140] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Alex Tremayne Personally? I wouldn't recommend a new character move from destroyers to cruisers without getting engineering, electronics and both cap skills to 5 and most of the rest of the engineering and basic electronics skills to 4. Oh and the seven non jump drive related navigation skills to at least 4, and if Caldari getting the shield hp and shield recharge skills to 5 too. So about 5 mil SP at least. That's off the top of my head so I've almost certainly missed things there. And zero weapon skills and zero learning skills. No armortanking skills either. Sounds VERY effective So I missed some stuff as I said thought I had. Mea culpa. When I created my combat alt I didn't move from destroyers to cruisers until I had about 8 mil SP including all the advanced learning to 4, (which of course I recommend that anyone trains first :P) Obviously training of frigates and destroyers and their weapons is important too, but they were somewhat secondary for me and I didn't find my effectiveness reduced in that regard. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Lyn Bunnions	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:03:00 - [141] Right now Heat is good for overloading Webbers, generally it's probably only going to be effectively used for that since scram range is not an issue once the target is webbed. Overloading guns means you get 2-3 salvos off and then you die, overloading the reppers might be viable for a nos-boat to prolong its tank for a while. Overloading MWD/AB is silly except for situations like the one with the web where you need one cycle to get in range. Anything else is pointless. Heat adds value pretty much exclusively to solo-pvpers imo, its nice flavour for others but not really smart to use.
Edania Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes Edge Of Sanity	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:04:00 - [142] Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Jdestars I hope that CCP is not going to give up to the weeping and to lower the prerequired of this skill.Rolling Eyes Eve is one games where one have to choose even this it have to pass by a specialization you can use overheat without this skill , but if you want to become power full , pay the price ;) noob want to flying with all vessel, Eve are not a game for roxxor.. i'd play to Eve since almost 4 year and ihavent energy management V , 10d for obtain its not the end of the world ... Here we go again, another 1-2year+ vet, who has most skills like trained for, who doesnt have to worry too much about giving up the "10" (you must have nice attributes, for a rank3 skills to take 10 days to train) days to train EM 5. i think new people deserve and need to advance to where i am now faster than i did so people catch up in terms of gain/time invested to do anything less alienates any new player base, so what if the new things affect older players at release two years from now there will be the same discussions as a xth round ofimprovments are released to help noobs catch up, then you get to take dvantage immediatly as do i and this whine cycle continues, then later there in the same position. Catching up is not the same as advancing quicker. however to diminish the achievments of old time players is equally stupid not only do they lose players who are old customers they lose ne wplayers who have the forsight to see that your achivments will mean nothing in the long run you get presented with difficult choices oh my, devestating! your getting no less screwed over than countless people have for the entire duration of eve, whenever anything changes you have exactly three options, adapt your plan, make do without. or cry and hope your blubbering tears encourage people to take pity on you Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:07:00 - [143] Originally by: Cpt Fina Na'Kunni, If you think that other skills are more important than EM V and that they should be trained before..... THEN TRAIN THEM! It's not very complicated. You speak to me like im the only one with a problem with it.... I don't ahve no problem to train engineering to 5.... no problem at all. But lets look details Engineering (Rank "1") Energy Management (Rank "3") -----Total------ (Rank "4") Thermodynamics (Rank "3") So basically you have to train a rank 4 skill, to train to a rank 3 skill. Small Energy Turret is a rank 1 skill, for specialization it's rank 3, then Medium Energy Turret is rank 3, for the specialization its rank 5, an it goes up. Same goes for learning skills Rank 1 for the first, rank 3 for the second. Same with missiles..... same with probably almost every other skill that goes up.. Why the **** does Thermodynamics have to be different... Yes it is rather big deal to me, as my whole EVE life revolves around PvP, i already have a hard time gettin used to my BC as it is, now i have to contest with heat aswell... and for me to train that i have to take 20 days away from my original training, to get that... if it was lower then ye would be on my list in a week or 2. Atm im gettin WU to 5, then its the medium turrets, then its AWU to 4, then hull upgrades 5, then again finishing off my support skills. Thats already a month or two of training. And no its not very complicated for my brain to tell me to train something else, but its very complicated to be held behind to get myself an extra 4% recharge/cap an waste the days off my normal training times, just to use a feature.... im not the only one unhappy about this.
Zeko Rena Caldari Tangent Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:08:00 - [144] Since i posted in the other thread, and tarts keep making more, all ill say is, dont give in CCP dont give in! Ill protect you with my T2 Bat -------------------------- Har Har, sig is finnaly mod proof.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:10:00 - [145] Heat is not some overpowering advantage and I don't know why people keep acting like it is. It's a crappy game mechanic cheated out of it's only real audience (younger players) by skill requirements which compete directly with far far more useful and applicable skills rather then some "get out of danger maybe..occasionally..please?" skill.
Sapphrine The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:12:00 - [146] Energy Management V is a Tier III skill. I am certainly not a noob but i'd say i wasn't a veteran per se either. I haven't needed that skill till now so haven't trained it. Now I will need it to use heat... so be it. Problem i see from you Na'Kunni is that you seem to have decided you must have heat to pvp effectively. You have a training plan already and this messes with that. All I can really say is that it is a judgement call imho. They brought out new features in the patch and they are not things that you just start with. You need to choose, take a few weeks out to train a skill which will have value in the future (cap IS life at the end of it all) but which you had initially not schedule any time soon, or train it later. IMHO, I think the training time is about right. It will inconvenience me from an immediate goal in the next few weeks if I train straight to it but I'd need the skill eventually so it is hardly lost time overall. Its all about your priorities. tbh, I think it is ok as it is, even though I wont be able to use it for a while.
darklegionca Caldari Blood Eagle Federation Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:12:00 - [147] I rember threads like this for the salvage mod so lets hope they bring down the the skill lv ------------------------------------ darklegionca - One name. One legend.
Jdestars Stars Research systems Incorporation	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:19:00 - [148] Completely all right after a test on singularity a system stand of launcher integer was burned(blown) out after 4-5 waves of missile on 1 npc in 800k, to believe that the overheating is going to be the key of the victory pvp is imaginary... A contribution yes, but badly managed and it will precipitate you in your pod lagg.... , bad pull (pve) The progress skill is faster maintaining that 4 years ago further to the implementation of the implant +4 +5 and skill of advanced learning (fisrt implant seed in 2004 (+3)
Celior	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:22:00 - [149] Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. But yet they will be advertising it, to attract new players.... Wait, so they're advertising features that are not immediately avaliable to new players!?!?!? This is an outrage! CCP is actively conning customers with features that take upwards three weeks to use!! CCP really needs to take a long hard look at Blizzard that immediately give players access to all features from the get go.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:23:00 - [150] Originally by: Mica Swanhaven Mica says... so you want Thermodynamics to be a rank 5 skill? will that make you happy? Rank 5 works for me. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort

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