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MotherMoon
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Posted - 2007.06.21 05:18:00 -
[421]
Originally by: Voltaeis Gemini
Originally by: Tyr Vaantau
Originally by: Na'Kunni Can't we make Thermodynamic's only require Engineering level 5 + Energy Management/science level 4
I find this rather odd, as the noob's (I have quite a nice few mil SP tucked under the belt, so don't class myself as a total noob) already have a hard time to keep up with the vet's, and now with heat here.
They can pwn even more given they know what they're doing. I see/hope this will be sorted out in the future, but for now look's like im gonna have to train it to keep inline, and once again go off my goal, AGAIN....
whine over.
Discuss once you all come out of game!!
What are the current requirements?
This discussion topic is just dumb.. its a level playing field for all.. if u cant use a skill now then train for it. The topic poster needs to do what every other player in the game does and prioritise the need for a given skill over the need to train something else.. Well done CCP dont give an inch to whiners like this.. Eve is a rich gaming environ because player DO need to make choices in developing there character.. Not all skills should be easy to learn..
than take out the unneeded UI for people that can't use it?
if my car which is an automatic had a manual control stick shift as welll as the automatic I would be confused
b ecause one of them would seem to do nothing untill I trained to figured it out ahhhhh
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Honneamise
Amarr Indomita Classis Ion Core
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Posted - 2007.06.21 07:15:00 -
[422]
Edited by: Honneamise on 21/06/2007 07:14:02
15 pages of thread !!! LOL
i would be happy to see an "official" comment from CCP
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Ozstar
Naughty 40 Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.21 07:33:00 -
[423]
Its fine.
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia It¦s still very ackward reading threads about 'how to ride eris'
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.06.21 07:45:00 -
[424]
Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 21/06/2007 07:44:20
Originally by: Na'Kunni
Originally by: FireFoxx80 It would be nice that if you didn't have the skills, the buttons didn't appear on the UI.
^^
Particularly as it adds a level of complexity to new players. We're headed towards "Go-Johnny-Go-Go-Go-Go" here.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |

Vir Hellnamin
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.06.21 07:49:00 -
[425]
You should be able to use ISKs to buy skills. ;)
(there always should be high end skill, and Thermo is one of them... with T3 ships - if the rumours for T3 ships being more resilent to Heat are true.) -- V.H.
"Entering MH means instant death. It's worse than 0.0. Even the asteroids shoot back." - Alex Harumichi, Gradient [GRD]
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.06.21 08:14:00 -
[426]
Almost every ship I fly, uses cap. And almost all of these die when I run out of cap. Thus Energy Management 5 (along with energy systems operation 5) is an important skill.
*shrug* thermodynamics isn't a must have game option. Therefore I don't see a problem with _only_ a rank 3 needed to train it. Especially as it's a rank 3 you should be thinking about getting anyway.
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Hasak Rain
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.21 08:28:00 -
[427]
Edited by: Hasak Rain on 21/06/2007 08:30:55
Originally by: James Lyrus Almost every ship I fly, uses cap. And almost all of these die when I run out of cap. Thus Energy Management 5 (along with energy systems operation 5) is an important skill.
*shrug* thermodynamics isn't a must have game option. Therefore I don't see a problem with _only_ a rank 3 needed to train it. Especially as it's a rank 3 you should be thinking about getting anyway.
I don't understand this sheep mentality that just because Energy Management 5 is an "important skill" that it validates it being the req for Heat.
I honestly don't see what one thing has to do with the other. Maybe someone with half a brain can explain it but I doubt it.
All I keep reading from these muppets is "Well you need EM 5 to PvP and it is a good skill to have and stuff ect {yawn}"
That is true but what does it have to do with Heat?
I forgot what all the Heat reqs are and I am not in the game to check. I know I just need EM 5 though.
I think it is :
Engineering 5
Science 4
Energy Management 5
Then: Thermodynamics.
Dropping EM to 4 would still leave a considerable timesink for a new player. It wouldn't be like every noob coming into the game would have Heat on his trial acct. Engineering 5 alone would take a new player at least a week {probably more} to get trained and that is even with factoring in the 800K in SPs they get for free upon creation.
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Cpt Branko
Partisan Warfare Ltd.
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Posted - 2007.06.21 09:31:00 -
[428]
Why is the heat interface (along with the horrendous new module buttons, the only thing I dislike with the new UI) there for everyone, then?
It's really like teasing people. You never have to, say, train T2 guns. But at least you don't have a sign "nyah, nyah, you're a noob, you can't use T2" on the UI that you essentially have with heat. Especially rude considering the dev blogs advocated it as something that will 'help' new players ;P
And the "work for it" crowd are really the same as the WoW people and their "grind to lvl 60" and "work for it" attitude ;P
Should the new graphics, when they come out, only be available for people who train "Graphics modifications V"? I say, they should! ;)
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Angor
The JORG Corporation FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.21 09:35:00 -
[429]
Why dont people post this stuff in the developments forum... Dev's actually pay attention to that Section!!!!!!!!!!!!
And I have 50mil sp and i cant use the bloody things either... your not alone. Same as salvagers when they first came out... i still cant use them either and they reduced the skill requirements within a few weeks lol.
GAME DEVELOPMENT FORUM 4TW!!!! _______________________________ Your signature image exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo |

Awox
Minmatar QUANT Corp. Southern Connection
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Posted - 2007.06.21 09:36:00 -
[430]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Why is the heat interface (along with the horrendous new module buttons, the only thing I dislike with the new UI) there for everyone, then?
It's really like teasing people. You never have to, say, train T2 guns. But at least you don't have a sign "nyah, nyah, you're a noob, you can't use T2" on the UI that you essentially have with heat. Especially rude considering the dev blogs advocated it as something that will 'help' new players ;P
And the "work for it" crowd are really the same as the WoW people and their "grind to lvl 60" and "work for it" attitude ;P
Should the new graphics, when they come out, only be available for people who train "Graphics modifications V"? I say, they should! ;)
Agreed. CCP refusing to make the HUD configurable in anyway is a slap in the face every time they make something this annoying. For my purposes my gun panel could be half the size it is now. - AwoxEveUtils (EVELauncher, ShiftWindows, ScratchPad) script for AutoIt scripting language!
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Na'Kunni
Amarr Null Horizon
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Posted - 2007.06.21 09:48:00 -
[431]
Originally by: James Lyrus Almost every ship I fly, uses cap. And almost all of these die when I run out of cap. Thus Energy Management 5 (along with energy systems operation 5) is an important skill.
*shrug* thermodynamics isn't a must have game option. Therefore I don't see a problem with _only_ a rank 3 needed to train it. Especially as it's a rank 3 you should be thinking about getting anyway.
But it's not just a rank 3 skill you need to 5, it's basically a rank 4 skill to 5, to use heat, like many others are saying too, this was aimed at newer to "help" them, they have the buttons teasing you when your in-game...
People may call us whiners, but the anti-whiners your just as bad... seriously were not even asking for a big thing, this is minor compared to the other whiner nerf this, nerf that requests.. but yet its gone into a 15 page thread??? ya really think this is jus the views of a selected few... there's also been another thread about this, but seeing as this 1 has progressed at a faster rate, it's migrated to here.
*shrug* (yes i can do that aswell), and no, just because a skill is rank 3, i shouldn't be thinking about training it..
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Sinnead Bachmann
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Posted - 2007.06.21 11:54:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus I'm not a noob, and I neither have EM 5 nor plan to train it in the immediate future.
Then you shouldn't plan on using heat either.
What's so hard about it? Suck it up and train one level V skill, not only will you get yer heat, but you will get some extra cap too.
Quit whinging and play the game as presented. These constant "I, personally, do not see the point of..." threads get awfully bloody tired.
STFU and PLAY.
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MotherMoon
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Posted - 2007.06.21 12:21:00 -
[433]
as in... play EvE? with a stupid UI I can't use?
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Zaqar
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Posted - 2007.06.21 12:29:00 -
[434]
Really, if they'd originally released the skill with a pre-req of level 4, would anyone at all even think to suggest that it should be raised to level 5?
People just like having something that others don't.
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Hasak Rain
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.21 13:03:00 -
[435]
Originally by: Zaqar Really, if they'd originally released the skill with a pre-req of level 4, would anyone at all even think to suggest that it should be raised to level 5?
People just like having something that others don't.
Dude, if they would have had NO reqs other than the Thermodynamic skill, people would have assumed that it is a "base feature" that everyone is suppose to use {or not if you choose} and no one would have said a word about it. Especially since it is currently on the UI whether you have the skills trained or not.
In other words you are 100% correct.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.21 13:24:00 -
[436]
Originally by: Zaqar Really, if they'd originally released the skill with a pre-req of level 4, would anyone at all even think to suggest that it should be raised to level 5?
People just like having something that others don't.
An intresting argument. Yes I guess you would be correct, however, one can also say that if a HAC had a pre-req of cruiser 4, would anyone at all even think to suggest that it should be raised to lvl5?
I have EM lvl5 anyway, (yeah, abaddons force you to do that) but to be honest, everybody should have this skill, unless all you do is fly 100% passive tanked ships forever. That and also Evasive manuvering lvl5 are key skills.
But in my personal opinion, I think that while a few people can use it just now, it may go the same route as Tractor beams and Salvagers and have the requirements droped. --
Billion Isk Mission |

Hasak Rain
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.21 13:37:00 -
[437]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Zaqar Really, if they'd originally released the skill with a pre-req of level 4, would anyone at all even think to suggest that it should be raised to level 5?
People just like having something that others don't.
An intresting argument. Yes I guess you would be correct, however, one can also say that if a HAC had a pre-req of cruiser 4, would anyone at all even think to suggest that it should be raised to lvl5?
I have EM lvl5 anyway, (yeah, abaddons force you to do that) but to be honest, everybody should have this skill, unless all you do is fly 100% passive tanked ships forever. That and also Evasive manuvering lvl5 are key skills.
But in my personal opinion, I think that while a few people can use it just now, it may go the same route as Tractor beams and Salvagers and have the requirements droped.
A Hac is an entire class of ships and a T2 one at that. Heat is a pretty minor thing in comparison don't you think?
In other words, yeah, I would expect to have to train out the wahzoo for Hacs. Very bad example.
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.06.21 13:50:00 -
[438]
Request denied. ___ Junkie Beverage: i use your tears to cyno in my laughter
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Danzig256k
Caldari Mortal Devastating Kin
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Posted - 2007.06.21 13:55:00 -
[439]
try thinking about it this way, ya can never have enough Cap, right? just about every combat pilot, pvp or pve needs cap to survive. i was going to train that 5th dot anyway, so it's a double win in my book :)
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Sinnead Bachmann
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Posted - 2007.06.21 15:56:00 -
[440]
Originally by: MotherMoon as in... play EvE? with a stupid UI I can't use?
If it is truly the case that you are unable to use the UI then I sugggest it is not the UI that is stupid. (Barring colour blindness of course.)
The discussion here is not about the UI however, but about the skills required to overload modules. I maintain that the requirements as stated are just fine.
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Whalesaver
mega mining corporation Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.21 16:12:00 -
[441]
Having played the game for 2.5 years, I have EM5 so I would like to think my viewpoint is relatively objective.
I believe there should be no pre-requisites for heat.
Why? It is available on every ship and is not a module. It's not as though you need a pre-requisite skill to use your scanner, or to warp, so why to use heat?
Sure seed skills for using it more effectively, but it has the capacity to be a game changing mechanic, why exclude 95% of the playing population from using it? -----------------------
Doesn't shoot first Will ask questions later And enjoys a nice cup of tea |

Crissy
Gallente Freedom-Technologies
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Posted - 2007.06.21 16:32:00 -
[442]
I don't just get why ppl are whining about having energy management at lvl 5 to use heat. Heat is going to be used very little anyways as a last desperate act to save your ship and maybe own someone before they kill you if the odds are greatly against you.
Energy management 5 is a great skill for everyone to have. The more cap you have the better and some races need the extra cap moew then others. 
Sig. Concept Version 1.3 Solider of "Freedom-Technologies"
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Hasak Rain
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.21 16:50:00 -
[443]
Originally by: Whalesaver Having played the game for 2.5 years, I have EM5 so I would like to think my viewpoint is relatively objective.
I believe there should be no pre-requisites for heat.
Why? It is available on every ship and is not a module. It's not as though you need a pre-requisite skill to use your scanner, or to warp, so why to use heat?
Sure seed skills for using it more effectively, but it has the capacity to be a game changing mechanic, why exclude 95% of the playing population from using it?
Yes I agree.
What is funny though is CCP wants more players to try PvP and take more risks such as going to low sec and moving into 0.0. However, with the way they implemented this, I personally am not going to do any more PvP until I get my Energy Management 5 trained because I am not giving some kid living in his mom's basement yet another advantage.
I will just sit in high sec running lvl 4 missions over and over making a nice fortune with no risks until I get around to training it. 
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qantua gnartians
Gallente Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.21 17:40:00 -
[444]
15 pages so far and still noone has taken the time to think their position over, and have come up with an actual reason to wry heat needs to be restricted content, or wry it needs to be tied to that skill in particular and not it's own specialisation path.
the whole well it's not a specialisation since EM 5 is a must have is just defensive retorics, that does only confirm that pouple dont see a great need for it to be restricted, from anyone.
Im not nesseryly against having heat as a specialisation if someone could point a benefit to it being tied to theat exact existing path of specialisation.
I hereby represents myself and noone but myself, please dont make my corp or aliance responsible for my foolis |

Achuramale
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Posted - 2007.06.21 17:43:00 -
[445]
Originally by: qantua gnartians 15 pages so far and still noone has taken the time to think their position over, and have come up with an actual reason to wry heat needs to be restricted content, or wry it needs to be tied to that skill in particular and not it's own specialisation path.
the whole well it's not a specialisation since EM 5 is a must have is just defensive retorics, that does only confirm that pouple dont see a great need for it to be restricted, from anyone.
Im not nesseryly against having heat as a specialisation if someone could point a benefit to it being tied to theat exact existing path of specialisation.
I haven¦t read the whole thread but your post is just as pointless because you could say samething about absolutely everything in EVE. Why restrict anything ?
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Sinnead Bachmann
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Posted - 2007.06.21 18:13:00 -
[446]
Edited by: Sinnead Bachmann on 21/06/2007 18:12:28 It's simple really, it is that way because the Dev's decided it should be. No other logic is required.
Heat overload is an effect the dev's wish to be available to a smaller group of players than the whole player base. How do I know this to be true? Simple, I look at the skill requirements the dev's have set. The only thing stopping everyone from doing it is the Opportunity Cost
Now, when I was an utter noob the idea of training a 45 day skill seemed horrifying. You see, there were so many other things I could do with those 45 days - ie train up the Learning and core skills for my chosen path. Now that I am less of a noob and have spent some time training some of those 'core' skills to L5 the idea of a 45 day skill is pretty innocuous.
So, it seems you have a choice: Spend the time now and forgo all the other things you could have done with the training time required and gain the ability to overload your modules. Or don't and don't.
Dumbing down the skill reqs isn't the way to go.
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Grath Telkin
Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc
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Posted - 2007.06.21 19:56:00 -
[447]
Originally by: Sinnead Bachmann Edited by: Sinnead Bachmann on 21/06/2007 18:12:28 It's simple really, it is that way because the Dev's decided it should be. No other logic is required.
Heat overload is an effect the dev's wish to be available to a smaller group of players than the whole player base. How do I know this to be true? Simple, I look at the skill requirements the dev's have set. The only thing stopping everyone from doing it is the Opportunity Cost
Now, when I was an utter noob the idea of training a 45 day skill seemed horrifying. You see, there were so many other things I could do with those 45 days - ie train up the Learning and core skills for my chosen path. Now that I am less of a noob and have spent some time training some of those 'core' skills to L5 the idea of a 45 day skill is pretty innocuous.
So, it seems you have a choice: Spend the time now and forgo all the other things you could have done with the training time required and gain the ability to overload your modules. Or don't and don't.
Dumbing down the skill reqs isn't the way to go.
total agreement, this game is supposed to represent a level unreached by other MMO's. I will say that perhaps they overdid the UI a bit, but the live dev blog said that wasnt the final product. On that note, i really dont think the UI dislike is reason enough to dumb down the skills just so everybody can use it.
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Hasak Rain
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.21 20:26:00 -
[448]
Edited by: Hasak Rain on 21/06/2007 20:28:06
Originally by: Grath Telkin
Originally by: Sinnead Bachmann Edited by: Sinnead Bachmann on 21/06/2007 18:12:28 It's simple really, it is that way because the Dev's decided it should be. No other logic is required.
Heat overload is an effect the dev's wish to be available to a smaller group of players than the whole player base. How do I know this to be true? Simple, I look at the skill requirements the dev's have set. The only thing stopping everyone from doing it is the Opportunity Cost
Now, when I was an utter noob the idea of training a 45 day skill seemed horrifying. You see, there were so many other things I could do with those 45 days - ie train up the Learning and core skills for my chosen path. Now that I am less of a noob and have spent some time training some of those 'core' skills to L5 the idea of a 45 day skill is pretty innocuous.
So, it seems you have a choice: Spend the time now and forgo all the other things you could have done with the training time required and gain the ability to overload your modules. Or don't and don't.
Dumbing down the skill reqs isn't the way to go.
total agreement, this game is supposed to represent a level unreached by other MMO's. I will say that perhaps they overdid the UI a bit, but the live dev blog said that wasnt the final product. On that note, i really dont think the UI dislike is reason enough to dumb down the skills just so everybody can use it.
How does making the reqs high and creating another time sink "represent a level unreachable by other MMOs?"
People continue to make fancy and important sounding statements like this but they lack substance and are never backed up by any facts.
Any MMO can put in a time sink. The high reqs the Devs decided to attach to Heat is nothing special or spectacular or "genre changing."...lol
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CampyloBacter
Gallente Chlamydia Online
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Posted - 2007.06.21 20:41:00 -
[449]
Originally by: Grath Telkin this post amazes me.
So is the problem that you have to see it in your UI, or that you cant use the damn heat?
I wonder if all the posters here realize how many 2-3 year old players DIDNT train EM5, simply because they didnt think the final level was worth it. Don't believe me? try trolling the alts for sale, take a look at how many DONT have that skill, AND have 2+year ages on em.
You'd think its the end of the world "Oh woe is me, i cant do things a 3 year player does" BFD, get over it.
The OP here violently attacks anybody who dose not side with him, ignoring every fact presented. He is backed by people calling it a "timesink"...wtf do you think BS 5 is? 60 days for what? a slight boost. I wonder why he bothered to post at all, unless he wanted to prove his lack of debating skills by ignoring facts, and attacking people who try to make a point.
In the end, like everything else in this game, im sure CCP will fold, and "dumb" it down, the nerf cries will reach the heavans, and the great smiting nerf bolt will come down, then EVE will be full of people burning up thier mods and crying for the heat effect to do less damage.
One thing you all need to adjust to, EvE is all about the haves n the have nots. you have trained the skills, or you have not, you will train the skills, or you will not. This game isnt supposed to be fair, its supposed to reward those who work hard at it. If your willing to take the time to train the skill, regardless of what you think of it being a timesink (which is utterly ******** when you look at some of the longer train skills), you will reap the rewards.
only 2 things will make this thread better: a moderator saying "its not changing, deal with it for once instead of *****ing", and CCP saying that EVERY patch from now on will involve increasingly difficult to aquire skills. cause i gotta tell you, that if i had been playing for 3 years, n some guy who started a month ago came along and could do even a portion of what i could do, i would simply find a new game to play.
If the damn UI bothers you so much, start a thread about that to get noticed, but dont use it as a platform to adjust the requirements for a skill, it just sounds assanine when presented in this particular ridiculous argument.
/signed
perhaps one of the best written and most succinct posts I have ever read in these fora. Thank you sir- for bringing some sanity to this asylum.
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qantua gnartians
Gallente Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.21 20:54:00 -
[450]
Edited by: qantua gnartians on 21/06/2007 21:02:26
Originally by: Sinnead Bachmann Edited by: Sinnead Bachmann on 21/06/2007 18:12:28 It's simple really, it is that way because the Dev's decided it should be. No other logic is required.
So is just pure and blind belief in aoutority, you do know that those devs have made a lot of changes to eve over the time ajustiing just about averything.
Originally by: Sinnead Bachmann
Dumbing down the skill reqs isn't the way to go.
Are we debating heat or general training time, i certainly dont want the general acess to T2 ships and modules dumbed down, it's just that the nature of heat is so much different from any module in the fact that CCP had rewrite the combat UI completly.
Im not in any way oposed to 45days paths, thats a part of what makes the skill system so revarding. it¿s specificly heats status as neither module nor really independent specialisation, that makes me just dont get wry EM 5 makes sense in the contents.
Actually the whole way to uncomplex implementation of the req's bother me, it just feels so much like an afterthought.
Why cant heat be something thats there but grows with skills like guns, ships or scan probes(ccp added a basic probe with rev II)
Why does everyone see heat as nothing different then da bomb or a new flashy t2 mod when it fored ccp to rewrite the combat UI for all, if thats the presumption yes just suck it an train for it, ill say drop em 5 and add some new rank 4 instead as pre req, but heat is not just a flashy t2 mod its an UI change.
I hereby represents myself and noone but myself, please dont make my corp or aliance responsible for my foolis |
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