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Thermodynamic's Reduce to Energy Management 4 please! (First Whine)

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Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:33:00 - [271] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Melissa Ravenflame Originally by: Mashie Saldana Keep the prerequsites as they are. Heat is the path to Tech III so shouldn't be noob friendly. Btw, I'm training energy management lvl 5 myself right now. Amen. As stated before, heat is the second step towards T3. The first step is getting your skills high enough to use heat. We hear the occasional whine about how hard the skill reqs are for T2 with the need for skills at level 5. Thankfully they get ignored by CCP as T2 is something special and should take a lot of time to achieve. T3 should be certainly be no easier than T2 to achieve. Really? I honestly did not know this. Somebody should have brought this up 9 pages ago. The Devs mentioned that MAYBE, heat and T3 will be intertwined. So jumping the waggon and saying IT WILL be tied to T3 is silly. Okay because it is the first i heard of it. Still, only God and CCP knows how far down the road T3 is so I agree that is jumping the gun a bit.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:33:00 - [272] Originally by: Hasak Rain I never said Vet's opinions do not matter. I said bringing up "the good ole days" is a nice bedtime story but really has nothing to do with the topic. It seemed to me that the post you were replying to earlier had a very valid point to make on skill training focus. That's very relevant to the topic, especially when directed towards newer players. His post could have been worded in a nicer fashion, but the point he was trying to make is still entirely vaild. warp drive active \| nature vraie
qantua gnartians Gallente Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:35:00 - [273] Originally by: Alex Tremayne I certainly hope so. I hope CCP takes notice of those of us supporting them against the whiners in desiring that some things not be n00b-friendly, and that more importantly that they please, for the love of God, overhaul the damned UI. Ohh cut that dusty old argument like your really here just to defend CCP/Eve from the evil of whiners that make sense. Your trying to pull a strawman argument here, derailing the whole debate. and now we have 5 spam threads on the front page doing the same(some locked fortunately) Start actually explaining wry you think that is the coolest thing on earth to have heat as a non basic feature. Eve have never been designed blindly but more or less by trial and error with things hitting the production server, more or less undone and unbalanced, thats just how CCP does things. CCP obviusly whant heat as a masive part of the game, it's he only part of rev II aimed at non cap pilot, but that dont mean theyve finalised or internally agree on how it should be, that wry well argumented whines work. Now heres wry i dont think Heat needs to be a part of a certain specialisation path. 1. Heat going to affect every module propotional to the isk/SP the player have invested, ie it wont actually change the noob/vet balance in a dogfight. 2 heat is absolutely a gameplay changing feature, it just add a layer to any dogfight. wry on earth would anyone change of the mecanics dogfigts, and then nerf the noobs from that change. So what i want an answer to is this. Wry must heat not be noob frindly? Im just seing plain statement that you think it's silly to want it changed and not that many considerations, im still kind of curius to what reasons people have for wanting to treat heat not as a basic feature but as a specialiasation. The biggest flaw with heat as it is right now is that heat is a fixed boost and only drawbacks are ajustable, wry not make both ajustable with the drawback ajustment recruireing the boost skill at lvl 5? I hereby represents myself and noone but myself, please dont make my corp or aliance responsible for my foolis
Shidhe Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:36:00 - [274] This is a different case from salvaging - there was a good reason why newer players would want to salvage things. But here there is nothing to stop newer players from overheating modules, its just that they aren't as good at it - I dont see a problem.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:37:00 - [275] I say keep its reqs high, screw the whiners.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:39:00 - [276] Originally by: Shidhe This is a different case from salvaging - there was a good reason why newer players would want to salvage things. But here there is nothing to stop newer players from overheating modules, its just that they aren't as good at it - I dont see a problem. They ARE stopped from overheating mods because of the high skill prereq.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:41:00 - [277] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 16:42:34 Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain I never said Vet's opinions do not matter. I said bringing up "the good ole days" is a nice bedtime story but really has nothing to do with the topic. It seemed to me that the post you were replying to earlier had a very valid point to make on skill training focus. That's very relevant to the topic, especially when directed towards newer players. His post could have been worded in a nicer fashion, but the point he was trying to make is still entirely vaild. This was his quote: "dont change the requirments at all!!! yes noobs may have a bit of a harder time gfetting it but dont you think they should be working on support skills for the modules not skills that can kill those mods, and if you were like me 2 years ago i had a hard enough time buying new ships" Okay, basically he is saying noobs should be working on support skills and not Heat. That is true which brings back my earlier point that not only do newer players have a pile of skills the NEED to even fly a simple ship like a Cruiser or BC effectively, they now also have a nice 3-4 week Energy Management Skill staring them in the face. It just widens the gap between the "Haves" and the "Have Nots" further. You are right. His point is valid and actually validates an argument to why Heat Reqs shouldn't be as steep as they are.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:02:00 - [278] Originally by: Hasak Rain You are right. His point is valid and actually validates an argument to why Heat Reqs shouldn't be as steep as they are. That's awfully creative. Read to me like he was simply suggesting they focus on more meaningful support skills until they're ready to use heat. By then the move to level 5 for EM would be either already done or not such a big deal to them. Of course we could debate and reinterpret what he said all day, I suppose. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:07:00 - [279] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/06/2007 17:09:23 ^^^^ Hi winterblink! Originally by: Kellyl Quote: Engineering level 5 Energy Management Level 5 Everyone should have these skills anyway :/. QUOTED FOR MOTHERF****** TRUTH. _________________ Burn.
ReePeR McAllem The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:10:00 - [280] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Kellyl Quote: Engineering level 5 Energy Management Level 5 Everyone should have these skills anyway :/. QUOTED FOR MOTHERF****** TRUTH. THROWS IN SOME MO TRUTH!!!! /me laughs at everybody who dont have energy management 5
ElCholo Minmatar FarCry Inc Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:11:00 - [281] dont nerf the reqs - every damn time we have a new feature with a lv5 skill as requirement we get crys of 'but i wanna use it now!' tractor beams .. salvage .. rigs .. come on . train a few skills instead of runnin to the forums.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:12:00 - [282] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain You are right. His point is valid and actually validates an argument to why Heat Reqs shouldn't be as steep as they are. That's awfully creative. Read to me like he was simply suggesting they focus on more meaningful support skills until they're ready to use heat. By then the move to level 5 for EM would be either already done or not such a big deal to them. Of course we could debate and reinterpret what he said all day, I suppose. How is it creative? It is the truth. Which part of having an extra three week to a month gap {on top of all of the basic support skills} between a noob and the vets are you finding creative?
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:16:00 - [283] Really though, why is it that every time CCP brings out a new skill, EVERYONE THINKS THEY'RE ENTITLED TO IT RIGHT AWAY? That didn't happen with Titans and Carriers and Motherships back in RMR! Players weren't saying "Lower the requirements to Spaceship Command 5!" No, that's lame. Just because you have a rank 3 skill you have to train to 5, you whine about it. I imagine though even if it was rank 1 you'd still complain. That's lame. It's not *FAIR* (this is totally the correct usage of the word) that every time CCP comes out with a new skill someone whines about it and it gets nerfed down to levels everybody can use. I say in this case CCP did the right thing and needs to stand by it. They had a goal for this skill, and I'm fairly certain the newbies with this skill would all get frustrated when they're having to spend their hard earned isks on repairing their modules all the time. Even though that's not my place to speak for, it's what I see happening. Lastly, everyone really should have these skills. They are what I call "required skills" and everyone should have these topped off anyway. 25% extra grid and capacitor are pretty hard to scoff at. Everyone wants things at 4 so they can train them for a day or two and then never have to think about it again. Well, I've got news for you all - You really need these skills trained to 5, because it makes you not a better ship, but a WISER PILOT. The better ship comes after you figure out why you trained those skills to 5. [/rant] _________________ Burn.
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:18:00 - [284] is it really that bad that it takes 9 pages in a post to get it all out? so your skill training gets altered a bit, big friggin deal. You want constructive input? EVE is tough, its a hard game, full of nastiness and generally it does not cater to the weak. My guy is probably way younger than yours, and no, i dont have EM to lvl 5 either, but it officially just made my list of things to train. Why? because i have to. period. no crying, no tissues, no nothing at all. just train the damn skill. I keep seeing you tell people to "not post if your going to tell me to go play another game, i only want constructive help"...well, maybe your getting it, your just too hard headed to notice. Did you ever think your in the wrong game? maybe you want something this game will NEVER give you, which is a free handout, or an easy path. In EVE, if its cool, or powerful, or even useful for the most part, it takes time to achieve. You will train for eons to properly fly a battleship (please note "properly"), and for my part, i hope they never give in to people who say its "too much". so what, 15 days out of your life to train a little skill, big friggin deal. Battleship 5 is like 60 days, seems id be happy to train a 15 day skill over a 60 day one, and yet, your not complaining about the training time of it...perhaps because you havent started yet, but i guess well see
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:21:00 - [285] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Really though, why is it that every time CCP brings out a new skill, EVERYONE THINKS THEY'RE ENTITLED TO IT RIGHT AWAY? That didn't happen with Titans and Carriers and Motherships back in RMR! Players weren't saying "Lower the requirements to Spaceship Command 5!" No, that's lame. Just because you have a rank 3 skill you have to train to 5, you whine about it. I imagine though even if it was rank 1 you'd still complain. That's lame. It's not *FAIR* (this is totally the correct usage of the word) that every time CCP comes out with a new skill someone whines about it and it gets nerfed down to levels everybody can use. I say in this case CCP did the right thing and needs to stand by it. They had a goal for this skill, and I'm fairly certain the newbies with this skill would all get frustrated when they're having to spend their hard earned isks on repairing their modules all the time. Even though that's not my place to speak for, it's what I see happening. Lastly, everyone really should have these skills. They are what I call "required skills" and everyone should have these topped off anyway. 25% extra grid and capacitor are pretty hard to scoff at. Everyone wants things at 4 so they can train them for a day or two and then never have to think about it again. Well, I've got news for you all - You really need these skills trained to 5, because it makes you not a better ship, but a WISER PILOT. The better ship comes after you figure out why you trained those skills to 5. [/rant] No what is lame is someone like you comparing this issue to someone wanting to fly a Mothership or a Carrier right away. I stopped reading after that. I guess wanting Heat reqs lowered one notch = The player base expecting to fly Capitals the day after their Trial acct ends.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:25:00 - [286] ^^^^ Then you're not intelligent for not reading the rest, because I drew lines as to why I brought that up. _________________ Burn.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:28:00 - [287] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa ^^^^ Then you're not intelligent for not reading the rest, because I drew lines as to why I brought that up. If attacking my intelligence is what makes you sleep better at night, then go for it. The truth is I just got bored with your drivel after the second sentence.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:30:00 - [288] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Siigari Kitawa ^^^^ Then you're not intelligent for not reading the rest, because I drew lines as to why I brought that up. If attacking my intelligence is what makes you sleep better at night, then go for it. The truth is I just got bored with your drivel after the second sentence. It's not drivel. Why, do you want the requirements reduced or kept at the same level? _________________ Burn.
Doomed Predator Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:32:00 - [289] Edited by: Doomed Predator on 20/06/2007 17:31:36 I don't have that skill and it will take a little over 2 weeks to train it up. But hey it's a very useful skill. Imagine if they made the req some god awful useless skill with no real bonus. Like tactical shield reconfiguration.
Rogue Clone Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:34:00 - [290] With something so major as heat... and it is major... I consider anything that requrest a complete re-tooling of the games UI as major... there should be little to no pre-reqs. I've got all the pre-reqs but Energy Mgt 5, I've got advanced learning skills trained, I've got +4's in my head and its still gonna take me another 12 days to train for heat... I feel bad for the poor noobs that are gonna have to devote almost a month training for heat... a month they could use getting into a battlecruiser or BS to actually get competitive. 12 days of training is almost half a month, which equals about 7 US Dollars worth of game time. Thats what really annoys me about heat, its such a blatant abuse by CCP to suck more money out of us and add yet another training time sink. IMO: Lowering reqs to E Mgt 4 would be a step in the right direction Lowering reqs to E Mgt 4 & Engineering 4 would be acceptable Removing all pre-reqs would be RIGHT
implanted Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:35:00 - [291] whine....reduce the requirements.....whine....nerf it....whine...whine...er and....whine.....JUST GET TRAINING LIKE WE ALL HAVE FFS
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:36:00 - [292] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:41:57 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Siigari Kitawa ^^^^ Then you're not intelligent for not reading the rest, because I drew lines as to why I brought that up. If attacking my intelligence is what makes you sleep better at night, then go for it. The truth is I just got bored with your drivel after the second sentence. It's not drivel. Why, do you want the requirements reduced or kept at the same level? I stated the reason multiple times in this thread but to recap, I think it just widens the gap between newer players and Vets too much. It is also an unnecessary time sink for intermediate players like myself who have a majority of support skills trained but haven't started EM 5 yet. Now if it were reqs to fly a Battleship we were talking about here, I would agree with the anti-whiners. However, we are talking about Heat which the playerbase has said throughout this thread isn't that big of a feature. It isn't going to be used much they say. Okay, if it isn't that big of a feature, why does it need such steep reqs? No one has answered that question yet and we are on page 10.
Juggernaut Kell Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:41:00 - [293] Actually I think they should lower the requirement, then these whining idiots will never train that skill up to lvl 5 and when I run across them I will be just a lil better then them skillwise and hence have an advantage over them all. morons 4tw
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:45:00 - [294] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/06/2007 17:50:25 Originally by: Hasak Rain I stated the reason multiple times in this thread but to recap, I think it just widens the gap between newer players and Vets too much. Now if it were reqs to fly a Battleship we were talking about here, I would agree with the anti-whiners. However, we are talking about Heat which the playerbase has said throughout this thread isn't that big of a feature. It isn't going to be used much they say. Okay, if it isn't that big of a feature, why does it need such steep reqs? No one has answered that question yet and we are on page 10. The argument that it isn't going to be used much has no direct relation to it's skill LEVEL. Heat is something that players are going to use frequently I imagine. Even so, the idea that you have of it "widening the gap" between vets and new players is backwards. Causing people to need to train a skill that they will likely need very much closes the gap, it does not widen it. By achieving these skills, you become better at EVE. If you just left them at 4, that's not encouraging anything. Plus, look at it at an RP way. Would you try to overclock*** something if you didn't already optimize it's energy efficiency? No. _________________ Burn.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:47:00 - [295] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:46:37 Originally by: Juggernaut Kell Actually I think they should lower the requirement, then these whining idiots will never train that skill up to lvl 5 and when I run across them I will be just a lil better then them skillwise and hence have an advantage over them all. morons 4tw Actually, I would train it anyway. When I feel like it. But.....Yes 5% more Capacitor is the deciding factor in every single fight in this game. No other skills or factors matter. If you were flying a Frigate, you would take out my Battleship because you have Energy Management 5 and I only have level 4. Idiot.
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:50:00 - [296] Edited by: Grath Telkin on 20/06/2007 17:52:19 Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Siigari Kitawa ^^^^ Then you're not intelligent for not reading the rest, because I drew lines as to why I brought that up. If attacking my intelligence is what makes you sleep better at night, then go for it. The truth is I just got bored with your drivel after the second sentence. It's not drivel. Why, do you want the requirements reduced or kept at the same level? I stated the reason multiple times in this thread but to recap, I think it just widens the gap between newer players and Vets too much. Now if it were reqs to fly a Battleship we were talking about here, I would agree with the anti-whiners. However, we are talking about Heat which the playerbase has said throughout this thread isn't that big of a feature. It isn't going to be used much they say. Okay, if it isn't that big of a feature, why does it need such steep reqs? No one has answered that question yet and we are on page 10. maybe because not many have grasped the effects heat WILL have on the game. an inty can burst a web now, a warp disruptor can jump out to 50+km on an arazu. seriously, the new guys will have to work for this ability just like every other, i think its sick that you all want everybody to be able to do this straight off. heat will affect the game in new ways, perhaps the steep requirements are being used to screen for exploits, that CCP hadnt thought of yet. Maybe, just maybe, the vets have the right to enjoy that veteran status a bit more, by already having those skills trained. Maybe, a new player shouldnt be worried about flying a BC or BS competitively without the pre-reqs for this skill, cause you REALLY would need most of them to be competitive in a true sense of the word anyway. maybe you should just train the skill, if you've done your "noob" homework, and have learning skills trained, lvl 5 EM isnt that friggin long. all of the skills that you need to use heat, will make you a more competitive pilot in the end, without them, your less likely to succeed, get over it, leave the damn skills reqs alone and just work for something once in awhile, instead of the forums filled with cries of "NERF NERF NERF" one day after the patch.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:52:00 - [297] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:53:39 Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:52:24 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Hasak Rain I stated the reason multiple times in this thread but to recap, I think it just widens the gap between newer players and Vets too much. Now if it were reqs to fly a Battleship we were talking about here, I would agree with the anti-whiners. However, we are talking about Heat which the playerbase has said throughout this thread isn't that big of a feature. It isn't going to be used much they say. Okay, if it isn't that big of a feature, why does it need such steep reqs? No one has answered that question yet and we are on page 10. The argument that it isn't going to be used much has no direct relation to it's skill LEVEL. Heat is something that players are going to use frequently I imagine. Even so, the idea that you have of it "widening the gap" between vets and new players is backwards. Causing people to need to train a skill that they will likely need very much closes the gap, it does not widen it. By achieving these skills, you become better at EVE. If you just left them at 4, that's not encouraging anything. Plus, look at it at an RP way. Would you try to overheat something if you didn't already optimize it's energy efficiency? No. It doesn't close the gap because new players have more important things to train first than Energy Management 5. They have piles upon piles of skills to train before they can even fly a Cruiser or a BC effectively. Adding a 3 week training skill to that list isn't helping them no matter how useful the skill is once they get it done. They are still being pushed back an extra month from the Vets who already had that skill trained. Like I said, I would agree with you if this were a class of ship or something like that but we are talking about a feature which is likely to become a staple in PvP.
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:55:00 - [298] why do you all keep saying 3 weeks, its 15 friggin days to train it with your learning skills done, friggin whine all you want, but state facts, if its taking you 3 weeks, you never finished something long ago you should have, and THAT, sounds like a personal problem
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:56:00 - [299] Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:46:37 Originally by: Juggernaut Kell Actually I think they should lower the requirement, then these whining idiots will never train that skill up to lvl 5 and when I run across them I will be just a lil better then them skillwise and hence have an advantage over them all. morons 4tw Actually, I would train it anyway. When I feel like it. But.....Yes 5% more Capacitor is the deciding factor in every single fight in this game. No other skills or factors matter. If you were flying a Frigate, you would take out my Battleship because you have Energy Management 5 and I only have level 4. Idiot. The difference is that this one skill effects every single ship you fly. There is a small subset of skills in the skill tree that do this, and all of them are worth training to level 5 as early as possible. Often the problem here is that the "young" players are so bitter about the perceived advantage that the "old" players have, that they view any advice as an insult. It is a shame really. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:57:00 - [300] Originally by: Hasak Rain It doesn't close the gap because new players have more important things to train first than Energy Management 5. They have piles upon piles of skills to train before they can even fly a Cruiser or a BC effectively. Adding a 3 week training skill to that list isn't helping them no matter how useful the skill is once they get it done. They are still being pushed back an extra month from the Vets who already had that skill trained. Like I said, I would agree with you if this were a class of ship or something like that but we are talking about a feature which is likely to become a staple in PvP. You missed my point. Everyone seems to think in "instant gratification" terms anymore. Simple fact is, YOU DONT NEED TO OVERCLOCK YOUR MODULES RIGHT NOW. When you do, train energy management and grid upgrades or whatever skills they are to 5 and reap the benefits of heat, while achieving two other great skills. That closes the gap. Because if you trained it to 4, then got heat, you would be 5% less than the vets. And then they'd be holding you at bay. _________________ Burn.

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