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Thermodynamic's Reduce to Energy Management 4 please! (First Whine)

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Brazero Amarr Noble House	Posted - 2007.06.23 08:03:00 - [481] I have to admit that after reading the first page I skipped the rest to see what page 17 had to offer. I'll make this short; to all the shortcut lovers, just train the skills needed and shut up. I can't fracking believe you guys fly around without maxed energy skills. But then again, I blame the forums for making it easy to drop in with a brand new whine thread instead of just training the skills and move on. Quote: <tuxford> Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.23 08:13:00 - [482] Useful? Yes. "Damn useful"? Not really. There are tons of stuff which is a better time investment. t2 guns/misssiles/drones, t2 tanking skills, nav skills, frig 2, cruiser 5 and so on. After around 1 year it gets about the same lvl in time/effect as other skills you can train and is regardless heat slowly a "good idea". Before that though..not really. Before that you'll be making your char weaker by training EM5, not stronger because you can invest these 630k SP into other skills which give you a far greater boost than 4.2% more cap. The thing is really that we have a generic, non module specific (or t2) game mechanic which is visible in the UI from day one. It's rather strange that CCP is giving it such high skill requirements, there is no other generic gamemechanic which is like that.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.23 08:56:00 - [483] Originally by: Aramendel Useful? Yes. "Damn useful"? Not really. There are tons of stuff which is a better time investment. t2 guns/misssiles/drones, t2 tanking skills, nav skills, frig 2, cruiser 5 and so on. After around 1 year it gets about the same lvl in time/effect as other skills you can train and is regardless heat slowly a "good idea". Before that though..not really. Before that you'll be making your char weaker by training EM5, not stronger because you can invest these 630k SP into other skills which give you a far greater boost than 4.2% more cap. The thing is really that we have a generic, non module specific (or t2) game mechanic which is visible in the UI from day one. It's rather strange that CCP is giving it such high skill requirements, there is no other generic gamemechanic which is like that. I disagree that EM 5 isn't a good investment but it is maybe a little less useful to you if you fly Caldari or Minmater but even with those races, it doesn't hurt to have a little more base cap. That doesn't validate it as being a req to Heat though. Just because it is useful doesn't convince me. I also think the CCP giving the interface for Heat to everyone whether you can use it or not is just a case of their developers being a bit lazy. They just wanted to put it into the game and be done with it rather than having to put in a feature where you can toggle between the two or have the new one insert once you learn Heat.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.23 09:18:00 - [484] Originally by: Brazero I'll make this short; to all the shortcut lovers, just train the skills needed and shut up. I can't fracking believe you guys fly around without maxed energy skills. I like to think of it as me having more skill at this game than someone like you. Someone who has to have every single skill maxed to 5 before you will even undock, I mean.
Mudkest MetaForge Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.06.23 09:38:00 - [485] Originally by: ghosttr It seems that every new feature they add into the game takes longer & longer to use. First it was the salvaging requirements, but now the pos defense and overheating skills are requiring really high prerequisites And just you watch, they're going to wait till i get ****ed off enough to actually bother to train those ridiculous prerequisites. Then right after i finish training they will reduce the requirements. well at least energy managment and engeeniring are usefull skills to ahve at 5, unlike survey wich is a bit dubious(yes archeology is nice to ahve for exploration, but evne then the skill itself isnt very usefull) -FIX LP store please small change, big difference
Mudkest MetaForge Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.06.23 09:42:00 - [486] Originally by: Kaylana Syi I can't use heat. I still think em5 is a bad decision. Why? Because it does little for your overall stats and its a high rank. it's jsut a rank3 skill, wait till you want battleship at 5 :p and it does not do little for your overal stat, unless you're passive tanked missile barge pilot(or passive tanked autocannon Flottile I guess) and you dont need cap -FIX LP store please small change, big difference
Brazero Amarr Noble House	Posted - 2007.06.23 10:07:00 - [487] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Brazero I'll make this short; to all the shortcut lovers, just train the skills needed and shut up. I can't fracking believe you guys fly around without maxed energy skills. I like to think of it as me having more skill at this game than someone like you. Someone who has to have every single skill maxed to 5 before you will even undock, I mean. We are talking about support skills here, skills that count for whatever we decide to fly. Lots of ppl, if not all, will at some point train for another race/ship and/or new modules and such. These support skills will never go away, and from time to time some of these skills will save your royal ass. Oh, and as for me and my skills........ Quote: <tuxford> Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.23 10:43:00 - [488] Originally by: Mudkest Originally by: Kaylana Syi I can't use heat. I still think em5 is a bad decision. Why? Because it does little for your overall stats and its a high rank. it's jsut a rank3 skill, wait till you want battleship at 5 :p and it does not do little for your overal stat, unless you're passive tanked missile barge pilot(or passive tanked autocannon Flottile I guess) and you dont need cap WTB: Rank 5 Battleship book. name your price! I can't get excited about the thermo requirements; I'm still shell-shocked from evemon's ETA for Fleet Command ship skills (plus the leadership skills)... ...it wished me a merry Xmas.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:06:00 - [489] Originally by: Hasak Rain I disagree that EM 5 isn't a good investment but it is maybe a little less useful to you if you fly Caldari or Minmater but even with those races, it doesn't hurt to have a little more base cap. Doesn't matter. Even for amarr getting the frig/cruiser skill to 5 will help you a LOT more than EM5. Or getting t2 weapons. Or t2 tanks. It's before you have all of that simply no good investement. Originally by: Malcanis WTB: Rank 5 Battleship book. name your price! He meant getting it to lvl 5, not that it is a rank 5 skill.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:13:00 - [490] Originally by: Brazero Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Brazero I'll make this short; to all the shortcut lovers, just train the skills needed and shut up. I can't fracking believe you guys fly around without maxed energy skills. I like to think of it as me having more skill at this game than someone like you. Someone who has to have every single skill maxed to 5 before you will even undock, I mean. We are talking about support skills here, skills that count for whatever we decide to fly. Lots of ppl, if not all, will at some point train for another race/ship and/or new modules and such. These support skills will never go away, and from time to time some of these skills will save your royal ass. Oh, and as for me and my skills........ Yawn, I know what support skills are and have always agreed through this thread that they are important. {Oh right, you didn't read the thread. You came to the last page and told everyone to "shut up" correct? Therefore you have no clue to what my stance really is) My point is whether EM 5 is soooooo very important is totally irrelevant to where they implemented Heat reqs. All I keep reading is "well you need EM 5 anyway." Sorry, but that isn't a reason why Heat needs to be at EM 5. btw: Guess what, I haven't needed EM 5 yet and yes I pvp. I agree that it is a good skill but having 4.8% less cap than is obtainable without mods and rigs hasn't decided a single fight I have been in so that pretty much blows that theory out of the water. Oh and what did you do in this game before you trained EM 5 up? I am assuming you cowered in your hanger because you just ridiculed anyone "who flies around without max capped skills." a couple of posts up. Those are your words so I am just curious to how you managed to play the game before you ungimped yourself?
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:20:00 - [491] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Hasak Rain I disagree that EM 5 isn't a good investment but it is maybe a little less useful to you if you fly Caldari or Minmater but even with those races, it doesn't hurt to have a little more base cap. Doesn't matter. Even for amarr getting the frig/cruiser skill to 5 will help you a LOT more than EM5. Or getting t2 weapons. Or t2 tanks. It's before you have all of that simply no good investement. Originally by: Malcanis WTB: Rank 5 Battleship book. name your price! He meant getting it to lvl 5, not that it is a rank 5 skill. Yes i agree there are more important skills to get. Having the best cap you can obtain is important but there are other things that are just as important. People acting like 4.8% more base cap is going to make you uber is pretty funny actually.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:28:00 - [492] Originally by: TimMc Dudes, every heat is more useful in PvP, and every PvP player seems to have it and is telling you all to STFU, so please just do it. Heat is pretty pointless from a PvE standpoint, which is where most of you moaners are coming from. Heck I mostly PvE and you guys are annoying. This is one of the post pointless wines ever, just listen to yourself! Grow up and play the game instead of b*tching on the boards. Thank you. lol my favorite kind of idiot. The ones who say a thread is annoying but take the time to read it and then post in it. {I am assuming you read it since you said that you find it annoying.} It must of sucked to have that dude standing behind you with a gun to your head forcing you to read it. I am sorry we put you through this.
Father Shillelagh	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:58:00 - [493] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: TimMc Dudes, every heat is more useful in PvP, and every PvP player seems to have it and is telling you all to STFU, so please just do it. Heat is pretty pointless from a PvE standpoint, which is where most of you moaners are coming from. Heck I mostly PvE and you guys are annoying. This is one of the post pointless wines ever, just listen to yourself! Grow up and play the game instead of btching on the boards. Thank you. lol my favorite kind of idiot. The ones who say a thread is annoying but take the time to read it and then post in it. {I am assuming you read it since you said that you find it annoying.} It must of sucked to have that dude standing behind you with a gun to your head forcing you to read it. I am sorry we put you through this. nah, your post is even more ****** stupid. I swear i hate these forums, I come on once in a while to see what the craic is and end up pucnhing myself int eh face when i read drivel like yours. I hate you lol.
TimMc Phoenix Inc	Posted - 2007.06.23 12:05:00 - [494] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: TimMc Dudes, every heat is more useful in PvP, and every PvP player seems to have it and is telling you all to STFU, so please just do it. Heat is pretty pointless from a PvE standpoint, which is where most of you moaners are coming from. Heck I mostly PvE and you guys are annoying. This is one of the post pointless wines ever, just listen to yourself! Grow up and play the game instead of btching on the boards. Thank you. lol my favorite kind of idiot. The ones who say a thread is annoying but take the time to read it and then post in it. {I am assuming you read it since you said that you find it annoying.} It must of sucked to have that dude standing behind you with a gun to your head forcing you to read it. I am sorry we put you through this. I only read the first page, then made the fair assumption that this thread is 17 pages of the same ****ing, shesh how sad do you think I am?
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.23 13:12:00 - [495] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Hasak Rain I disagree that EM 5 isn't a good investment but it is maybe a little less useful to you if you fly Caldari or Minmater but even with those races, it doesn't hurt to have a little more base cap. Doesn't matter. Even for amarr getting the frig/cruiser skill to 5 will help you a LOT more than EM5. Or getting t2 weapons. Or t2 tanks. It's before you have all of that simply no good investement. Originally by: Malcanis WTB: Rank 5 Battleship book. name your price! He meant getting it to lvl 5, not that it is a rank 5 skill. Sooo.. stop whining and dont train it? ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Lore Isander Caldari Sybrite Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.23 13:42:00 - [496] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Sooo.. stop whining and dont train it? Qft ---
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.23 14:08:00 - [497] Edited by: Grath Telkin on 23/06/2007 14:07:42 Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 23/06/2007 11:23:01 Originally by: Brazero Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Brazero I'll make this short; to all the shortcut lovers, just train the skills needed and shut up. I can't fracking believe you guys fly around without maxed energy skills. I like to think of it as me having more skill at this game than someone like you. Someone who has to have every single skill maxed to 5 before you will even undock, I mean. We are talking about support skills here, skills that count for whatever we decide to fly. Lots of ppl, if not all, will at some point train for another race/ship and/or new modules and such. These support skills will never go away, and from time to time some of these skills will save your royal ass. Oh, and as for me and my skills........ Yawn, I know what support skills are and have always agreed through this thread that they are important. {Oh right, you didn't read the thread. You came to the last page and told everyone to "shut up" correct? Therefore you have no clue to what my stance really is) My point is whether EM 5 is soooooo very important is totally irrelevant to where they implemented Heat reqs. All I keep reading is "well you need EM 5 anyway." Sorry, but that isn't a reason why Heat needs to be at EM 5. btw: Guess what, I haven't needed EM 5 yet and yes I pvp. I agree that it is a good skill but having 4.8% less cap than is obtainable without mods and rigs hasn't decided a single fight I have been in so that pretty much blows that theory out of the water. Oh and what did you do in this game before you trained EM 5 up? I am assuming you cowered in your hanger because you just ridiculed anyone "who flies around without max cap skills." a couple of posts up. Those are your words so I am just curious to how you managed to play the game before you ungimped yourself? im not calling you out, but if you read all my posts, one of them i actually gave an objective idea as to why CCP may have set the reqs to what they are. ive read all 17 pages of this sucker, and i always read the new stuff before i post on a topic.. i actually am thinking its more of a "themed" thing for them. Engineering, deals with energy, energy management deals with energy, heat, is energy, master the power systems of your ship, and you can modify the flow of heat energy, that sort of thing. in my post i never said "cause its a good skill to have for pvp". this alt hasnt actually trained that skill at all yet, not even in my book, its on the list, but i was working on other stuff, so no, i dont believe you NEED it to pvp (EM5), but it will help in the long run. I havent felt the need for it yet n ive killed just about every size ship you can kill, including chasing a carrier back into his station with a 7 man squad. I would never support the reqs simply because they "are a must have for PVP"...thats an opinion, not any kind of proven fact at all. I support the reqs for one simple reason, wisdom: Id rather have a bit more education as to what i can do and cant do before i start torching all my stuff. Id rather those who CAN use it torch theirs while learning the best ways to use it, then i can benefit from their wisdom, and NOT burn mine up in a unneeded situation.
Zenst Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.23 15:19:00 - [498] Originally by: Na'Kunni Edited by: Na''Kunni on 19/06/2007 23:20:55 Can't we make Thermodynamic's only require Engineering level 5 + Energy Management/science level 4 I find this rather odd, as the noob's (I have quite a nice few mil SP tucked under the belt, so don't class myself as a total noob) already have a hard time to keep up with the vet's, and now with heat here. They can pwn even more given they know what they're doing. I see/hope this will be sorted out in the future, but for now look's like im gonna have to train it to keep inline, and once again go off my goal, AGAIN.... whine over. Discuss once you all come out of game!! Moved from Eve General Discussion to Skills -Eldo UNSIGNED I have to train L5 logistics for a darn module - So suck it up. If everything skills is panada friendly then the game owuld be very boring as nobody would be special.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.23 20:20:00 - [499] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Sooo.. stop whining and dont train it? I AM training it Did so since I saw the skill requirements changed on SISI. 3 days left. Got no problem with it, but I am over a year old and don't have anything really important to train atm. If I were a new player however I would have a bit of a problem with it. Not because I want to have it at once with a 30 minute training time, but because it would be before my nose from day one which kinda suggests it being a core game mechanic which you HAVE to train AFAP. Some frustration potential there.
Rudy Metallo Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.24 05:01:00 - [500] Edited by: Rudy Metallo on 24/06/2007 05:01:25 Engineering 5 I understand Science 4 I understand But Energy Management 5? Pointless. Make it energy systems operation 5, and I may consider getting heat. Say what?
Sean Drake Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.06.24 11:09:00 - [501] CCP made a simple choice 1 Whine thread like this about high requirements or 100's of whine threads from noobs who just blew up whole rows of exspensive mods. I fully understand and agree with CCP taking option 1 Besides if I now have to train Anchoring lvl5 just to keep training a skill I all ready have that has also had it's rank doubled as well the you all can suffer as well.
errorist Caldari Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.24 12:04:00 - [502] This post is being flamed by older players, and as one im going to do the same. Energy management 5 is a skill everyone should train,and you say it is only 5%, then why train the skill in the first place... ¿the lvl 5 of the skill actually gives the most cap. If Somethings hard doing its not worth doing, But get going anyway
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.24 12:57:00 - [503] Edited by: Aramendel on 24/06/2007 12:58:13 Originally by: errorist Energy management 5 is a skill everyone should train,and you say it is only 5%, then why train the skill in the first place... ¿the lvl 5 of the skill actually gives the most cap. Er.. no, it doesn't. You seem to onfuse it with energy systems operation. There you go from 0.8 to 0.75 of your cap recharge time, which gives you compared to lvl 4 of the skill a boost 0.8/0.75 -> 1.0666 or in other words, 6.7% more cap/sec. FOR EM5 the opposite is the case, it gives the smallest benefit compared to the last lvl of the skill. You go from 1.2 to 1.25 of your base cap, which is 1.25/1.2 -> 1.04166, aka 4.2% more max cap (and recharge) than at lvl 4. In general, for skills which reduce something the last lvl has always the biggest effect and for skills which increase something the last lvl has always the smallest effect. Compared vs the previous lvl of cource.
Cassius Hawkeye Minmatar UK Corp FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.24 15:13:00 - [504] Edited by: Cassius Hawkeye on 24/06/2007 15:17:40 Yeah - and i can't flly a carrier in 3 weeks because i have to train BS lvl 5 - whats that all about?? It's not fair! If you want to fly a cov op frigate you have to train Electronics Upgrades V - not fair huh! For every whiner, there are 100's of newer players who just get on with it! Train the damn skill if you want it. If you don't - don't train it. BTW i have EM 4 and it doesn't bother me - and i am NOT a vet.
SonOTassadar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.06.24 18:57:00 - [505] Now training: Energy Management 5. And I'm not whining. ----- Griffin -- 100,000 ISK ECM - Multispectral Jammer Is -- 20,000 ISK Standard Missile Launcher Is -- 10,000 ISK War target sobbing over losing a fight in his T2 fitted Battleship -- priceless
Sean Drake Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.06.24 23:08:00 - [506] Originally by: SonOTassadar Now training: Energy Management 5. And I'm not whining. Well done but you appear to be in the minority
Crawler Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2007.06.25 07:44:00 - [507] come on whine its not like you get stronger by training energy management to lvl 5 and there for fave the power to stay in battle longer. the skill takes 6-8 days to train to lvl 5 less you you start exploiting the LP shop and get +5 implants. i really like the heat you can stay in combat just a little longer or even finish up quickly without loosing any modules you just need to train the skill to lvl 5 _____________________________________________ yawnnnnn
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.25 10:53:00 - [508] Wow this is still going strong and I am even still being quoted. 17 pages and haven't really seen one good reason yet. Just a bunch of rabble from some jaded Vets with inferiority complexes {or should it be called a WoW complex?} where they don't want anyone approaching things that they have. Pathetic really but what can you expect from little children? Probably the closest thing I have read to a good reason is someone mentioned that Heat is supposedly the bridge to T3 and for that reason should have high reqs but until that is confirmed, I am not buying it yet. The 13 days it would take for me to train for this doesn't even bother me in itself. I have trained longer skills and EM 5 was on my list of "to do" even before I knew Heat was attached to it. However, I just view it as yet another unnecessary time sink implemented by CCP. There is no justification for it. Until I get it trained, I will just fly lvl 4 missions in high sec making millions upon millions. One less target out there for the kiddies telling me to "suck it up." The good news is this will help finance the fleet of Faction and regular Battleships I am putting together. Thanks and have a nice day. Maybe ill come back tomorrow and see if anyone has come up with something intelligent yet. Not holding my breath though.
Magius Paulus Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.06.25 12:21:00 - [509] I'm not having any problems with EM5. I think one of the cool things about Eve is the satisfaction to collect sp for that ONE skill you like very much. However, i would be very disappointed if i'm like 75% of EM5 and then suddenly ccp lowers the req to 4. It's not like they didn't knew it would be a hard skill to get @5, so i guess they thought it over anyway.
Ssoraszh Tzarszh Minmatar Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks	Posted - 2007.06.25 13:03:00 - [510] Edited by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh on 25/06/2007 13:02:33 Originally by: Hasak Rain Wow this is still going strong and I am even still being quoted. 17 pages and haven't really seen one good reason yet. Just a bunch of rabble from some jaded Vets with inferiority complexes {or should it be called a WoW complex?} where they don't want anyone approaching things that they have. Pathetic really but what can you expect from little children? <snip> Thanks and have a nice day. Maybe ill come back tomorrow and see if anyone has come up with something intelligent yet. Not holding my breath though. Wow, you lack what you claim to seek seemingly. By your logic, you are just a "whining noob" who envies what "jaded vets" have and wants everything handed to you on a silver platter. Just like a 5 year old. Originally by: Hasak Rain The 13 days it would take for me to train for this doesn't even bother me in itself. Then why bother creating this thread then anyway? Just train the darn skill, its not like its useless, everyone who has it and is dependend on cap in their fittings can attest to that fact. Oh, i'm sorry you dont get out mutch, playing with NPC's all day and such. Nevermind, i see why its "useless" to you. Well then, i got news for you. Heat is not more usefull to you than training EM to lvl 5, to be honest i would not use it against NPC's anyway. So theres no need to train either skill. just put the Thermodynamics on your "to do list" like EM 5. Have fun,

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