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Thermodynamic's Reduce to Energy Management 4 please! (First Whine)

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James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:54:00 - [211] Originally by: Zeko Rena Quote: Make it level 2 so that people will continue not training up this vital skill so they are easier to kill. Good point Normally I hate statements like this (lame factor) but this actually summarizes another contention I have with the skill tree operating like this: it removes a decision. Eventually, EM 5 is good to get because it's incredibly useful (proportional though, to how much cap the ship you're flying has absolute - so, better for BS's/capitals). Whether you want that advantage is a decision that should be in the void - because it serves as an important decision on how best to skill train. Tying a feature which may or may not be useful to it removes this - because there's no question about training it, everyone will - somewhat like learning skills. Now, I think Heat is pretty useless the higher your SP gets because it's entirely chance based. However, let people make that decision. Don't guide them straight into it.
Sapphrine The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:04:00 - [212] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: torswin I dont really see the problem. Energy Management 5 is a VERY good skill to have anyway, 'cause everyone should have maxed cap skills imo... In combat that's the one that keeps you alive you know :) stage whispers I've been telling them that, but they aren't listening. Posting that there are good reasons for it to be a high req skill doesn't seem to wash on this thread. If you're experienced then they label you a vet and you're just trying to fck over the n00bs. If you're inexperienced then who cares what you think?! Clearly only the OP and those supporting him have a point. Yes I tried a constructive post first but they ignored that so I think i'll just add basic weight to saying, no, leave the skill req as it is. Don't fold to whining CCP.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:16:00 - [213] Originally by: La Tortura What I would do is making a specialisation in Thermodynamics. Basic Thermo should work as is, and should have a EM-4 or even EM-2 as prerequisite. Andvanced Thermo could have lvl 5 as prereq in both energy skills, have rank 8-12 and, for example, change graph of deterioration of module from linear to parabolic. eg, with Thermo Spec the first few cycles of overloading would do a little of damage, rest will do more and more. This is just for example. yup ANYTHING to ake new players not just stare at there UI confused there can be advanced uses for heat, like making guns take EM5 but shield could take EM4 and after burners Em4 I don't understand it's set up like something to sepicalise in, so maybe you'll release more for heat? if not that would be like only one feature in eve using cap and the rest of pkayers stare that thier caps in te middle of the UI going... what? oh and eris " CCP Eris Discordia Posted - 2007.06.20 14:05:00 - [12] - Quote We actually appreciate all sorts of feedback as long as it is constructive, if people can explain why they dislike a certain feature it tells us something and we can take into account Smile" so you better be reading these
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:24:00 - [214] Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: torswin I dont really see the problem. Energy Management 5 is a VERY good skill to have anyway, 'cause everyone should have maxed cap skills imo... In combat that's the one that keeps you alive you know :) stage whispers I've been telling them that, but they aren't listening. Posting that there are good reasons for it to be a high req skill doesn't seem to wash on this thread. If you're experienced then they label you a vet and you're just trying to fck over the n00bs. If you're inexperienced then who cares what you think?! Clearly only the OP and those supporting him have a point. Yes I tried a constructive post first but they ignored that so I think i'll just add basic weight to saying, no, leave the skill req as it is. Don't fold to whining CCP. I too have tried to be constructive, but it's not got me anywhere. To be honest I wish CCP never wasted their time on heat and instead spent it giving us the decent, configurable UI that EVE has been lacking for some time. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Sun Liping	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:35:00 - [215] Edited by: Sun Liping on 20/06/2007 14:37:40 Even if HEAT is nothing for me, i would prefer: - basic HEAT usage available for everyone, without any skill reqs (so the UI change has at least a reason to exist). Thus HEAT would be more in the original sense that it is a last resort for beginners - specialization skills with the current reqs to decrease HEAT damage (thermodynamics) - A Skill set which improves the benefits of overloading your modules. Those skills could be made up similar to the rigging skills, for each different kind another skill, since managing to improve the overload of an afterburner is something quite different than overloading a railgun. - later on Tech 3 modules, with benefits in regard to HEAT managing, also with high skill reqs, for example with its relevant skill from that skill set i mentioned above.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:35:00 - [216] Originally by: MotherMoon oh and eris Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Posted - 2007.06.20 14:05:00 We actually appreciate all sorts of feedback as long as it is constructive, if people can explain why they dislike a certain feature it tells us something and we can take into account Smile" so you better be reading these I certainly hope so. I hope CCP takes notice of those of us supporting them against the whiners in desiring that some things not be n00b-friendly, and that more importantly that they please, for the love of God, overhaul the damned UI. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:45:00 - [217] About EM 5 being a must: no, it's not. I fly Amarr ships with MWD fitted, and with a cap booster, I never found myself in a situation where having that bit more cap would've saved me; it's always been either I'm completely sucked dry by nos/running out of cap charges, or I still have plenty of cap but my tank couldn't keep up, or I had plenty of cap and cold hold the tank. Saying that EM 5 is a priority for noobs is sillyness incarnate, considering you should have all the tanking skills to 4 (5 for those needed for T2 tank), all gunnery/missile support to 4-5 and preferably racial speciality to 4 as well, all nav skills to 4-5, your spaceship command skills to 4-5, your other engineering skills to 4-5, electronics to 4-5, your drone skills to 4-5 and your learnings to 4-5 before ever considering going for that itty bitty extra cap. About Heat being a specialised thing not for noobs: as pointed out, the fact that it's implanted on everyone's UI says otherwise. That is however a fairly minor point compared to the fact that everyone WILL use it. Are you seriously going to tell me you aren't going to overload you MWD to get away when you fall in a bubble camp? About whining: although proper whinning is indeed annoying, bringing up imbalances for discussion isn't whinning. If nobody did, we'd still be flying old-school gankageddons, nanophoons and torp kestrels. I know I wouldn't stick around for that ****e. Like I said, I got screwed with Salvaging; I'm not getting screwed again. I'm sure CCP will lower the EM requirement soon, as right now, it's pretty stupidly high a req for something that everyone needs really, from the noob to the vet. BTW, I have 15M SPs, so it's not like I just started playing this game.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:52:00 - [218] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus About Heat being a specialised thing not for noobs: as pointed out, the fact that it's implanted on everyone's UI says otherwise. As I've pointed out, it means nothing of the sort. It just means that CCP have buggered up the UI with non configurable stuff taking up more space. Again. Originally by: Deschenus Maximus That is however a fairly minor point compared to the fact that everyone WILL use it. Are you seriously going to tell me you aren't going to overload you MWD to get away when you fall in a bubble camp? I beg to differ. It's a gimmick that CCP wasted valuble time and resources on that is going to get many people to kill themselves by accident. Until it becomes more than that, I won't even be training it, let alone using it. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:53:00 - [219] Originally by: Alex Tremayne I won't even be training it, let alone using it. I would love to bet on that
Indiria Fuentes Terra Rosa Militia	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:02:00 - [220] The op and people thinking like that are simply anoying! I¦m a younger player (playing since end of jan 07) but have already trained the prereqs for heat as cap-skills are almost mandatory imho (at least as Gallente, should be even more as Amarr i would suppose). Why can¦t people simply accept the concept of the game? Why do they start to whine to make things easier, quicker, blahhh, blahhh... the whine-level in the last weeks is annoying and disgusting! I hope CCP does not respond to all this whinage and keeps things as they are. Don¦t fix what¦s not broken! regards Indiria

Valrandir Gallente Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:04:00 - [221] no Energy Management is a basic skill and any respectable pilots should have it trained to V. -------------------------------- This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:06:00 - [222] Originally by: Alex Tremayne I beg to differ. It's a gimmick that CCP wasted valuble time and resources on that is going to get many people to kill themselves by accident. I don't agree with the underligned, but I do agree with the bolded part. I wish CCP would have spent their time on something else. Originally by: Alex Tremayne Until it becomes more than that, I won't even be training it, let alone using it.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:07:00 - [223] Originally by: Indiria Fuentes The op and people thinking like that are simply anoying! I¦m a younger player (playing since end of jan 07) but have already trained the prereqs for heat as cap-skills are almost mandatory imho (at least as Gallente, should be even more as Amarr i would suppose). Why can¦t people simply accept the concept of the game? Why do they start to whine to make things easier, quicker, blahhh, blahhh... the whine-level in the last weeks is annoying and disgusting! I hope CCP does not respond to all this whinage and keeps things as they are. Don¦t fix what¦s not broken! regards Indiria Yeah it is annoying when people don't think like you isn't it? It is a harsh world in which we live in. Suck it up buttercup.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:08:00 - [224] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: MotherMoon oh and eris Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Posted - 2007.06.20 14:05:00 We actually appreciate all sorts of feedback as long as it is constructive, if people can explain why they dislike a certain feature it tells us something and we can take into account Smile" so you better be reading these I certainly hope so. I hope CCP takes notice of those of us supporting them against the whiners in desiring that some things not be n00b-friendly, and that more importantly that they please, for the love of God, overhaul the damned UI. that'll al I'm saying make the UI useful it's nor fair to sticks thing on that new players can't use I'm not saying let noobs use heat I'm sayig why is it part of the UI
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:09:00 - [225] Originally by: Indiria Fuentes The op and people thinking like that are simply anoying! I¦m a younger player (playing since end of jan 07) but have already trained the prereqs for heat as cap-skills are almost mandatory imho (at least as Gallente, should be even more as Amarr i would suppose). Why can¦t people simply accept the concept of the game? Why do they start to whine to make things easier, quicker, blahhh, blahhh... the whine-level in the last weeks is annoying and disgusting! I hope CCP does not respond to all this whinage and keeps things as they are. Don¦t fix what¦s not broken! regards Indiria Where did I say it was broken??? NO WHERE.... Gallente don't need cap skills mandatory, ye i admit Amarr need them, but 4 in each of the cap skills is prefect, an onyl to 5 once you have the time to invest... Gallente are drones carriers/NOS Gods/Balster boats... Seriously gallente pwn no matter what they do.. I aint saying it's broken, Im saying its rather crazy what you need to train for them, yes its only a matter of 16 days training + the 4 for engineering, but its way to steep imo. And as someone posted the quote from a CPP employee, they would rather us send feedback so they can look into it ect, if you don't lie the whinage don't reply, or even simple is says (FIRST WHINE) int he thread title, you chsoe to come into a whine thread, you got yourself involved, I don't like people like you. Everyone has thier right to an opinion, you ahve stated yours, I state mine, so has many others in this thread... Until we don't get the option to express our opinions, then it changes, but until then, put up or shut up.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:09:00 - [226] also at my learning skills it's not a 15 day time sink only 12 days :)
Sapphrine The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:10:00 - [227] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Indiria Fuentes The op and people thinking like that are simply anoying! I¦m a younger player (playing since end of jan 07) but have already trained the prereqs for heat as cap-skills are almost mandatory imho (at least as Gallente, should be even more as Amarr i would suppose). Why can¦t people simply accept the concept of the game? Why do they start to whine to make things easier, quicker, blahhh, blahhh... the whine-level in the last weeks is annoying and disgusting! I hope CCP does not respond to all this whinage and keeps things as they are. Don¦t fix what¦s not broken! regards Indiria Yeah it is annoying when people don't think like you isn't it? It is a harsh world in which we live in. Suck it up buttercup. glad to see when people disagree with you and your 'reasonable' point you hold your head up high and stick to your guns instead of degenerating this into a slagging match. I had more respect for you earlier on when you almost seemed constructive. Now you're clearly just a whiner annoyed that people wont follow your nerf request. Just set the skill training if you care about it.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:12:00 - [228] Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Indiria Fuentes The op and people thinking like that are simply anoying! I¦m a younger player (playing since end of jan 07) but have already trained the prereqs for heat as cap-skills are almost mandatory imho (at least as Gallente, should be even more as Amarr i would suppose). Why can¦t people simply accept the concept of the game? Why do they start to whine to make things easier, quicker, blahhh, blahhh... the whine-level in the last weeks is annoying and disgusting! I hope CCP does not respond to all this whinage and keeps things as they are. Don¦t fix what¦s not broken! regards Indiria Yeah it is annoying when people don't think like you isn't it? It is a harsh world in which we live in. Suck it up buttercup. glad to see when people disagree with you and your 'reasonable' point you hold your head up high and stick to your guns instead of degenerating this into a slagging match. I had more respect for you earlier on when you almost seemed constructive. Now you're clearly just a whiner annoyed that people wont follow your nerf request. Just set the skill training if you care about it. People don't, but you might be surprised to learn they do care about the game. In every capacity, heat has failed to deliver anything. And it's hardly him whining - you might notice how the post above it is nothing but "my poorly planned skill training back bone!"
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:13:00 - [229] Energy Management, as I keep saying, but nooo everyone thinks you should use that extra time training just for the extra 5% cap that a cap recharger/power relay can do, but your saying any respectable pilot should have energy managment 5 is rather crazy. Any respectable pilot should be carrying a Capacitor Booster. Simple as that, you don't need that extra 5% cap/4% recharge.... Either change the skill requirement, or change the actual skill needed to train TD...
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:15:00 - [230] Depending what you're doing you just don't need energy management. Dare I say a sniper battleship is somewhat unlikely to run out of cap before it's either destroyed or its target dies etc. etc.

Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:16:00 - [231] Keep the prerequsites as they are. Heat is the path to Tech III so shouldn't be noob friendly. Btw, I'm training energy management lvl 5 myself right now. We're sorry, something happened.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:17:00 - [232] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 15:17:54 Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Indiria Fuentes The op and people thinking like that are simply anoying! I¦m a younger player (playing since end of jan 07) but have already trained the prereqs for heat as cap-skills are almost mandatory imho (at least as Gallente, should be even more as Amarr i would suppose). Why can¦t people simply accept the concept of the game? Why do they start to whine to make things easier, quicker, blahhh, blahhh... the whine-level in the last weeks is annoying and disgusting! I hope CCP does not respond to all this whinage and keeps things as they are. Don¦t fix what¦s not broken! regards Indiria Yeah it is annoying when people don't think like you isn't it? It is a harsh world in which we live in. Suck it up buttercup. glad to see when people disagree with you and your 'reasonable' point you hold your head up high and stick to your guns instead of degenerating this into a slagging match. I had more respect for you earlier on when you almost seemed constructive. Now you're clearly just a whiner annoyed that people wont follow your nerf request. Just set the skill training if you care about it. Are you talking to me? I am no worse than these people who come in here and throw the blanket label of "whining" on this entire thread no matter how many good points people bring up. I don't feel posters like that deserve any respect and I ridicule them. Sorry if that annoys you but......shrug. I am not trying to get people to "follow me." What the heck are you talking about? Really, I said my peace about this subject and I could care less how many agree. Either CCP will change it or they will not. I am hoping they will reconsider though.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:22:00 - [233] Originally by: Na'Kunni Energy Management, as I keep saying, but nooo everyone thinks you should use that extra time training just for the extra 5% cap that a cap recharger/power relay can do, but your saying any respectable pilot should have energy managment 5 is rather crazy. Any respectable pilot should be carrying a Capacitor Booster. Simple as that, you don't need that extra 5% cap/4% recharge.... Either change the skill requirement, or change the actual skill needed to train TD... For PvP? Sure, a cap booster is nigh on essential sadly, though I do wish CCP would nerf cap boosters hand-in-hand with nerfing Nos. For PvE though, where a sustainable tank is desired and carrying cap charges is just plain inconvenient, then EM V is just too damn useful. Even in PvP, having a bigger cap pool means that maybe you don't need to use as many of your limited number of 800 charges in a particular fight, meaning you can have one more engagement before having to restock. It's all useful. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Gladia Horusthu Gallente Ordo Pondera	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:25:00 - [234] How about we keep the skill requirements where they are at? I recycled my vet character, so I don't have those skills yet. But I can promise you that every one of those skills is WORTH IT just for its own sake. Energy Management 5 for 5% more cap than level 4? Cmon, in battle cap = life. If you are anticipating using the heat feature, you should be making a beeline for this anyway. Science 4? Infomorph Psychology. You pewpew, you should want this skill too for rapid deployment. Engineering 5? A must to fit the best you can on your ship. Not one of those skills is "wasted." There are a lot of other skills with prereqs that make me mad as hell at having to train them, but these make sense, in my opinion. S
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:27:00 - [235] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Na'Kunni Energy Management, as I keep saying, but nooo everyone thinks you should use that extra time training just for the extra 5% cap that a cap recharger/power relay can do, but your saying any respectable pilot should have energy managment 5 is rather crazy. Any respectable pilot should be carrying a Capacitor Booster. Simple as that, you don't need that extra 5% cap/4% recharge.... Either change the skill requirement, or change the actual skill needed to train TD... For PvP? Sure, a cap booster is nigh on essential sadly, though I do wish CCP would nerf cap boosters hand-in-hand with nerfing Nos. For PvE though, where a sustainable tank is desired and carrying cap charges is just plain inconvenient, then EM V is just too damn useful. Even in PvP, having a bigger cap pool means that maybe you don't need to use as many of your limited number of 800 charges in a particular fight, meaning you can have one more engagement before having to restock. It's all useful. No it isn't. Take my Dominix for example - even with all cap skills to 5 there's no way I'm getting two LAR 2's to perma-run on that. Far easier to fit 3x CCC rigs and be cap-stable. So why would I train EM5, if I can already do what I need with EM 4 and spend roughly the same amount of time training something more useful like DI 5 to speed up my ratting? And at any rate - no one is going to use heat for PvE.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:31:00 - [236] Originally by: James Duar And at any rate - no one is going to use heat for PvE. Why not? It's not like nobody's ever had a "do or die" situation happen while ratting or mission running. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:34:00 - [237] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: James Duar And at any rate - no one is going to use heat for PvE. Why not? It's not like nobody's ever had a "do or die" situation happen while ratting or mission running. That's true, but I think it's safe to say that Heat is far more a PvP thing than a PvE one.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:34:00 - [238] Originally by: James Duar And at any rate - no one is going to use heat for PvE. No kidding? I'd never have worked that out if you hadn't told me. Some of us PvPers do however do PvE to make cash to buy our shiny ships and mods for PvP. PvP and PvE are not mutually exclusive. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:36:00 - [239] Originally by: Gladia Horusthu How about we keep the skill requirements where they are at? I recycled my vet character, so I don't have those skills yet. But I can promise you that every one of those skills is WORTH IT just for its own sake. Energy Management 5 for 5% more cap than level 4? Cmon, in battle cap = life. If you are anticipating using the heat feature, you should be making a beeline for this anyway. Science 4? Infomorph Psychology. You pewpew, you should want this skill too for rapid deployment. Engineering 5? A must to fit the best you can on your ship. Not one of those skills is "wasted." There are a lot of other skills with prereqs that make me mad as hell at having to train them, but these make sense, in my opinion. S In battle cap means life, where do cap boosters come into the equastion, $%!"ú to everyone saying energy management 5 is a required skill, it isnt, it does fine at lvl 4. I wish peopel would actually read the thread before posting
Zhett Haukes Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:37:00 - [240] Just wanted to say that I am perfectly happy having to train energy management to V before getting heat. It doesn't bother me in the slightest and I am a 2007 player.



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