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Thermodynamic's Reduce to Energy Management 4 please! (First Whine)

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Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.19 22:48:00 - [1] Edited by: Na''Kunni on 19/06/2007 23:20:55 Can't we make Thermodynamic's only require Engineering level 5 + Energy Management/science level 4 I find this rather odd, as the noob's (I have quite a nice few mil SP tucked under the belt, so don't class myself as a total noob) already have a hard time to keep up with the vet's, and now with heat here. They can pwn even more given they know what they're doing. I see/hope this will be sorted out in the future, but for now look's like im gonna have to train it to keep inline, and once again go off my goal, AGAIN.... whine over. Discuss once you all come out of game!!
Tyr Vaantau Amarr Peregrin Avionics	Posted - 2007.06.19 22:49:00 - [2] Originally by: Na'Kunni Can't we make Thermodynamic's only require Engineering level 5 + Energy Management/science level 4 I find this rather odd, as the noob's (I have quite a nice few mil SP tucked under the belt, so don't class myself as a total noob) already have a hard time to keep up with the vet's, and now with heat here. They can pwn even more given they know what they're doing. I see/hope this will be sorted out in the future, but for now look's like im gonna have to train it to keep inline, and once again go off my goal, AGAIN.... whine over. Discuss once you all come out of game!! What are the current requirements? ------
Iyanah Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.19 22:52:00 - [3] Originally by: Na'Kunni Can't we make Thermodynamic's only require Engineering level 5 + Energy Management/science level 4 I find this rather odd, as the noob's (I have quite a nice few mil SP tucked under the belt, so don't class myself as a total noob) already have a hard time to keep up with the vet's, and now with heat here. They can pwn even more given they know what they're doing. I see/hope this will be sorted out in the future, but for now look's like im gonna have to train it to keep inline, and once again go off my goal, AGAIN.... whine over. Discuss once you all come out of game!! aww, look, it's like salvaging all over again. man up and get training, son. they nerfed the requirements to earn salvaging by two levels or something after it was released - and about 24 hours before level 5 of whatever skill it was finished training for me. wasted a good few days training a skill that i no longer needed because of people like you. ========================================== Iy please remember: I AM a sarcastic ******* and nothing i say has ever represented the thoughts or feelings of my corp, alliance, or anyone really. read
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.19 22:52:00 - [4] Heat is not supposed to be a feature everyone uses in every battle and/or mission. Heat is supposed to be a "Oh ****!" button you press when you're already done for, in hopes that it will save your hide at the cost of a couple offlined modules, so you can creep back to a station and repair. I don't think you're missing out on much anyway. After the first time testing it, I suppose you come to the exact same conclusion as the paragraph above - that it isn't worth doing it all the time anyway. So I wouldn't give it too much of a 'must have' factor.
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.19 22:53:00 - [5] Originally by: Tyr Vaantau Originally by: Na'Kunni Can't we make Thermodynamic's only require Engineering level 5 + Energy Management/science level 4 I find this rather odd, as the noob's (I have quite a nice few mil SP tucked under the belt, so don't class myself as a total noob) already have a hard time to keep up with the vet's, and now with heat here. They can pwn even more given they know what they're doing. I see/hope this will be sorted out in the future, but for now look's like im gonna have to train it to keep inline, and once again go off my goal, AGAIN.... whine over. Discuss once you all come out of game!! What are the current requirements? Engineering level 5 Energy Management Level 5 Science level 4 It's the energy management i find to be abit OTT to sue heat, who's ever idea that was needs taking care off I hope it can be put down a lil
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.19 22:56:00 - [6] It seems that every new feature they add into the game takes longer & longer to use. First it was the salvaging requirements, but now the pos defense and overheating skills are requiring really high prerequisites And just you watch, they're going to wait till i get ****ed off enough to actually bother to train those ridiculous prerequisites. Then right after i finish training they will reduce the requirements. Long training queues ftl CCP Stop the carebear whine, Fix Cloaking
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:00:00 - [7] Edited by: Na''Kunni on 19/06/2007 23:01:28 Originally by: Iyanah because of people like you. I feel offended by that. I am not ur usual whiner, infact I have NEVER whined about anything (or atleast made a special thread for something im unhappy with, until this one), so next time before you refer me to a group i'm not in, please think wisely next time an chose your words.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:01:00 - [8] Energy Management is a skill that all Amarr pilots need to train anyway to remain competitive, being 'the cap race', so I think the skill requirements should be reduced a little anyway, just to keep Amarr players that little bit ahead of everyone else with cap... Meh... Doesn't really bother me as I have all those skills anyway! Latest Video, Click Here!
Benglada Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:03:00 - [9] Edited by: Benglada on 19/06/2007 23:02:38 Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Tyr Vaantau Originally by: Na'Kunni Can't we make Thermodynamic's only require Engineering level 5 + Energy Management/science level 4 I find this rather odd, as the noob's (I have quite a nice few mil SP tucked under the belt, so don't class myself as a total noob) already have a hard time to keep up with the vet's, and now with heat here. They can pwn even more given they know what they're doing. I see/hope this will be sorted out in the future, but for now look's like im gonna have to train it to keep inline, and once again go off my goal, AGAIN.... whine over. Discuss once you all come out of game!! What are the current requirements? Engineering level 5 Energy Management Level 5 Science level 4 It's the energy management i find to be abit OTT to sue heat, who's ever idea that was needs taking care off I hope it can be put down a lil iv got those \0/ Edit: thats the cap one.... no i dont. damned. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends. Sig nerfz0r - maximum allowed siz0r is 24000 bytz0r. - Devil ([email protected]) Sig By Ortos
Kellyl Free Traders	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:04:00 - [10] Quote: Engineering level 5 Energy Management Level 5 Everyone should have these skills anyway :/. Originally by: HippoKing pretty much all caldari ships ming something terrible
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:04:00 - [11] I think it's a nerf to nos
Drachma Golea Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:13:00 - [12] A true whine fest thread indeed
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:14:00 - [13] Edited by: Na''Kunni on 19/06/2007 23:15:01 Originally by: Kellyl Quote: Engineering level 5 Energy Management Level 5 Everyone should have these skills anyway :/. Yes but I dont have problems with my cap anyways, so i like to have energy managment at 4 for now, while it rian up much mroe needed skills like gunner/mechanics/ect ect, engineering 5 is soon to be trained... But basically a rank 4 skill to lvl 5 (totalling the 1x for engineering, an 3x for energy managemtn) when the actually skill is only rank 3 take the biscuit dont ya think?
ho chiminh Gallente SlackaNova	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:14:00 - [14] What are the current requirements? Engineering level 5 Energy Management Level 5 Science level 4 It's the energy management i find to be abit OTT to sue heat, who's ever idea that was needs taking care off I hope it can be put down a lil Please explain why you have not already maximized your powergrid and capacitor storage!?!?! These are essential skills for any 6 month old character.
Adam Weishaupt Minmatar Pyrrhus Sicarii Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:15:00 - [15] Originally by: MotherMoon I think it's a nerf to nos Nice avatar.
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:18:00 - [16] Originally by: Ishina Fel Heat is supposed to be a "Oh **!" button you press when you're already done for, Yes an won't that "oh **" button be best for noob's rather than vet's who can hold thier own ???
Commander Madrox Technology Ventures Inc. Ghosts Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:23:00 - [17] OMG JUST BE QUIET OR GO FLY NOOB SHIPS all i here these days is O i can't kill this NERF IT! O it takes to long to TRAIN SHORTEN IT. I AM SCARED of the cloaked ships i want to be able to SCAN them and FIND THEM! all i have to say this just be quiet. if you don't like it go play a different game that is as mindless and toony. something that doesn't take time and skill to be compentent at!!!!! at a week old i was living in a low sec at a month i have more kill points than anyone in my corp! i kill things for fun
jakamo Middle Finger Technology Ghosts Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:24:00 - [18] i always liked you madd!
lin ta	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:27:00 - [19] new content is not free man. if ya been around longer than it costs less training time. i calculated it taked a year to get all the basic skills out of the way, at that your vested for new things...unless we talk about the really big things like cap ships and pos, then it's another year.
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:28:00 - [20] Originally by: Commander Madrox OMG JUST BE QUIET OR GO FLY NOOB SHIPS all i here these days is O i can't kill this NERF IT! O it takes to long to TRAIN SHORTEN IT. I AM SCARED of the cloaked ships i want to be able to SCAN them and FIND THEM! all i have to say this just be quiet. if you don't like it go play a different game that is as mindless and toony. something that doesn't take time and skill to be compentent at!!!!! STFU, I ahte people like you, who think they can come into a thread an tell someone to go play another ***** game because you don't like to hear them whine.Yes i admit im whining, but if you don't like it ** of an ivnade someone elses thread, or add something useful. I'm just saying i think the skill requirement is abit too much, that's it... final, this is a request, not ment for flames or anything like that, if the request doesn't get alot of support/doesn't get accepted. Then fine I live with it, but unti then GTFO if you aint got any useful to say
Gareth Angel The Plexus Syndicate The Order of New Eden	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:29:00 - [21] To be really honest - I am a little tired of reading whines from people that they can't start training a new skill immediately, because they do not have the prerequisit ones yet. Now you know what you have to start training, right? Please stop accusing others from starting to play Eve much earlier than you did. The game was there for you too back then, you didn't start playing --> your mistake. "The vets can start training this skill immediately..." - Helloooooooo! That's why they're VETS! Come on, please! CCP already changed a lot for new players. New player is not the same as vet. Not in the same league, skillpoint-wise. Unfair? Don't think so... Not my fault you slacked and started playing Eve much later than I did, okay? And yes, I meet the prerequired skills, so I can start training immediately. And I am a 'young vet' only, being almost three years old. Others have more sp's than I. Am I complaining about that? Now start training those skills, not that hard, tbh.
M'Balz Es'Hari Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:32:00 - [22] By the lords of Cobal, I just donÆt understand why CCP is putting this skill in the game. They have been working and tweaking ship resistances, damage dealing and HP so players have a chance to make it out of an Alpha Strike situation. Now they turn right around and give the Alpha Strike setup a boost? I genuinely hate to be critical of CCP and I havenÆt even played the new patch but am I missing something here?
Commander Madrox Technology Ventures Inc. Ghosts Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:33:00 - [23] Edited by: Commander Madrox on 19/06/2007 23:34:18 ok heres why its so high right now because if it was any lower more ppl would have it right away and it would be very unbalancing to ppl who just started playing i am honestly just sick of the whining in general be glad you start with a mil in skill points at a week old i was living in a low sec at a month i have more kill points than anyone in my corp! i kill things for fun
Aioa Planetary Assault Systems	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:43:00 - [24] Don't worry, CCP will cave in within a week and reduce it
Fable Hike Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:44:00 - [25] its fine ************************************ You are going too fast! Wait a minute and try again. *************************************
Shiwan Khan Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:45:00 - [26] Edited by: Shiwan Khan on 19/06/2007 23:52:29 We trained these skills, so now you have to train the skills. Edit - How about we just make it so when you start a new character you have all the skills ingame already set at lvl 5. That way there will be no division and everyone will be exactly the same. That sounds like fun! ____________________________________________ AEKDB
XxGridlockxX	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:47:00 - [27] Yeah CCP while your at it can you Reduce the Skills for titan to Spaceship command 3 and Frigate 3...oh yeah also can you change it so i just press one button to win eve thanks..... ( if you whine they shall succumb... ) "Eve online motto"
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:53:00 - [28] All you people telling me to stop whining, your all wrong, I have a right to express my opinion, I pay for this game aswell as you do, I gave my opinion and it sticks as still being to high regardless of whether i want to go train it. the thing im saying with vet's is, most (not all), will probably have energy management 5/engineering 5 + a **load of other skills & SP, already using most T2 stuff/best setup, rich as ** with faction modules ect ect. ya get where im coming from??, but yet ims till ont he training curve, of actually becoming effective in a BC, an not just a ceptor. And im guessing a hell of a lot of people are in the same boat, but then they ahve to re-route thier training to train for an extra 5% cap & to use "Heat". And again ill will tell you, this is a request, which is also a whine, either post something usefull like a few have "hats of to you", but for the people who are saying "go play other game, ur jus a whinz0r", please refrain from posting.
Milena Marich	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:54:00 - [29] Energy Management Level 5 is not fair since not every one is Amarr pilot. Crazy...
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:57:00 - [30] Originally by: Shiwan Khan Edited by: Shiwan Khan on 19/06/2007 23:52:29 We trained these skills, so now you have to train the skills. Edit - How about we just make it so when you start a new character you have all the skills ingame already set at lvl 5. That way there will be no division and everyone will be exactly the same. That sounds like fun! Once again, this isn't like im asking for alot, and no having all the skills at 5 wen u create a cahracter is just stupid an no fun would come of it
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:58:00 - [31] Originally by: XxGridlockxX Yeah CCP while your at it can you Reduce the Skills for titan to Spaceship command 3 and Frigate 3...oh yeah also can you change it so i just press one button to win eve thanks..... ( if you whine they shall succumb... ) "Eve online motto" You sir! Fail at your supposidly funny/sarcastic comment, move along!
Carden Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.19 23:59:00 - [32] Edited by: Carden on 20/06/2007 00:23:50 Edited by: Carden on 19/06/2007 23:59:19 Originally by: Na'Kunni Edited by: Na''Kunni on 19/06/2007 23:20:55 Can't we make Thermodynamic's only require Engineering level 5 + Energy Management/science level 4 I have a sad 28 million skill points under my belt and can't use this yet, it's set at a fair level if you want to use big toys you should have to work for them. Energy management 5 will take what 2 weeks? Whining on this is a bad joke... Edit: spelling errors Your signature image exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Gareth Angel The Plexus Syndicate The Order of New Eden	Posted - 2007.06.20 00:14:00 - [33] Originally by: Na'Kunni All you people telling me to stop whining, your all wrong, I have a right to express my opinion, I pay for this game aswell as you do, I gave my opinion and it sticks as still being to high regardless of whether i want to go train it. Fair enough. But then let those who oppose your opinion express theirs as well... Originally by: Na'Kunni the thing im saying with vet's is, most (not all), will probably have energy management 5/engineering 5 + a **load of other skills & SP, already using most T2 stuff/best setup, rich as with faction modules ect ect. ya get where im coming from??, but yet ims till ont he training curve, of actually becoming effective in a BC, an not just a ceptor. As I've stated before - that's why they're VETs man! Come on! Who do you think you are blaming other people for playing the game longer than you have? Not very strange some have more isk/skillpoints/ships/whatever than you. Noticed how I said 'some'? Cuz many new players who planned well have more riches than the majority of the 'vets', I tell you. Not being in the same skillpoint league does not justify your call for a prerequisits nerf on a brand-new skill that you cannot train yet. Originally by:** Na'Kunni And im guessing a hell of a lot of people are in the same boat, but then they ahve to re-route thier training to train for an extra 5% cap & to use "Heat". "Have to...", now where in Eve's manual it says you 'have to' start training every new skill immediately when it comes out? Or that you 'have to' do this to stay competitive? Have you seen 'heat' in action yet? Have you been greatly griefed by anyone using it against you? Or are you just being a little early and unfair about it now... Originally by: Na'Kunni And again ill will tell you, this is a request, which is also a whine, either post something usefull like a few have "hats of to you", but for the people who are saying "go play other game, ur jus a whinz0r", please refrain from posting. Instead of asking for 'hats off', you'd better start training some skills, like a lot of us already did (because we play the game longer than you). To be honest, I don't think my previous post was that nasty to you. I just hope that when trying to make others see your point, you really have to try and see theirs too. You might be wrong on this one, is what I am trying to tell you. Now go train skills!
Caia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.06.20 00:54:00 - [34] I was a bit shocked at the requirement, to be honest. I'd thought I'd be able to jump right into testing it out. Apparently, I have to wait a few weeks. Energy Management 4 would seem to be a better fit. On a side note, anyone seen the cost of the BPOs for the bombs? Just under 200M. Yikes, was expecting half that.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.20 01:00:00 - [35] Even better are the requirements for triage and pos gun controlling. Logistics 4 and Anchoring 5. Totally unlrelated skills being used as a time sink ftfl.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 01:05:00 - [36] I got ****** over with Salvaging, so I'm taking my time with this one. And while +5% cap is nice, it's not worth the 2 weeks of training to me just yet, so I'll be waiting until I'm done training the other stuff I want to train first, and see if CCP lowers the requirements. Shame though, cause I really liked playing around with heat on Sisi.
Logi3 Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.06.20 08:39:00 - [37] Its not ment to be a tool to use to wtfpwn everything in site. Its a last resort, and those skills are a must imo for any race. The only people who are moaning are the lazy people who cant be arsed to train for it. Well, its tough. Get training. And if CCP lower the requirements on this, then its clear they bow to the people who moan in this game. To that, i give you the V
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:04:00 - [38] I think the skill requirement for the new items has been way too high. There are extreme skill requirements for heat, and for pos defense. Both taking well over a month to train to any acceptable level. I know that they are probably making them longer so the bored cap ship pilots will have something to train for and not feel 'maxed out' but **** CCP think about the little guys for a change Long skill training queues ftl ccp Stop the carebear whine, Fix Cloaking
Plan Neun Caldari Ganja Unlimited	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:07:00 - [39] Edited by: Plan Neun on 20/06/2007 09:06:28 Originally by: Ishina Fel Heat is not supposed to be a feature everyone uses in every battle and/or mission. Heat is supposed to be a "Oh ****!" button you press when you're already done for, in hopes that it will save your hide at the cost of a couple offlined modules, so you can creep back to a station and repair. I don't think you're missing out on much anyway. After the first time testing it, I suppose you come to the exact same conclusion as the paragraph above - that it isn't worth doing it all the time anyway. So I wouldn't give it too much of a 'must have' factor. Totaly agree this is a panic button and should be used with care. I have all the req's and will train it asap. Hopefully i will never have the need to use it. But I dont think it is CCP intension that this panic button will be easy to achive, I have no prob however that powerhungry gankers want this for more or less for free.
Melor Rend	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:17:00 - [40] i agree that eneregy managment is not the most important skill to train to five (except maybe for amarr)... in fact of all the cap-skills i think it's the one that the fewest people will actually train to five... it takes about 12-15 days to train from 4 to 5 and the gain is simply not that huge imho. i woudn't mind if CCP reduced the reqs to eneregy management 4 instead of 5... but i guess a few time sinks such as these are needed so we all keep paying up for another good few years.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:21:00 - [41] No. I got 3 chars, all has EM lvl5. Go train you nub. "to be honest it makes me wonder about the mental state of a person who would join a corp called Space Perverts and Forum warriors"
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:23:00 - [42] Well I think that the requirements should be reduced to having level 4 anchoring for pos defense, and lv4 energy management for heat. That means that using these will require some skill investment, but wont be too extremely hard for newer players to train. Stop the carebear whine, Fix Cloaking
Edania Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes Edge Of Sanity	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:26:00 - [43] Even if you do train Energy managment 5 because you feel you "have to" which you do not your hardly losing out you still get the benefit of energy managment that is well worth having for anything save cookie cutter ravens. there are pre-reqs out there that ive done that are even more utterly useless, like the one to get covert ops needs electronic upgrades 5 a totally pointless skill save for what it enables, you just have to suck it up, any "vet" here has done just as much training of ridiculous skills to get somthing they wanted, if this attitude on the forums had exsisted at eves dawn then i have no doubt that racial battleship would instead have only needed racial cruiser 3 today. oh as an aside heat sucks anyway unless your about to die. you cant micromanage it to not take no/very low damage so once activated your weapons degrade very rapidly Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
DeadRow Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:26:00 - [44] Originally by: ho chiminh Please explain why you have not already maximized your powergrid and capacitor storage!?!?! These are essential skills for any 6 month old character. I've been playing coming on 3 years now and I still don't have EM5 on this Char, had it on my first one and didn't see that much difference tbh so didn't bother. Anyways, leave the requirements as they are- its only like a 2 week skill for lvl5 if you want Heat that bad. /DeadRow
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:29:00 - [45] Oh btw, having command ships lvl5, medium pulse spec lvl5 (heck, i even got recon lvl5, hac lvl5) to get bit more damage is always very nice. Having 8.5x damage mod with one heatsink is priceless "to be honest it makes me wonder about the mental state of a person who would join a corp called Space Perverts and Forum warriors"
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:31:00 - [46] Originally by: Na'Kunni Can't we make Thermodynamic's only require Engineering level 5 + Energy Management/science level 4 Why always lower and lower the requirements?? I think it is perfectly fine as it is. If you want something special, work for it. 15 days skilltraining isn't that much! If 15 days are too long for you, then I think this heat stuff has just not worth to you. With the same arguments above you can say: awwwww, capital ships are so skill and isk intense, lower the requirements! BS 5! Capital ship skill! Poor noob never can get this! Such skills ARE NOT MEANT to be for the noobs. They are meant for the experienced guys! (btw: i also lack eng mngt V, but so what?)
Santa Anna	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:33:00 - [47] Edited by: Santa Anna on 20/06/2007 09:33:39 Originally by: Plan Neun Edited by: Plan Neun on 20/06/2007 09:06:28 Originally by: Ishina Fel Heat is not supposed to be a feature everyone uses in every battle and/or mission. Heat is supposed to be a "Oh ***!" button you press when you're already done for, in hopes that it will save your hide at the cost of a couple offlined modules, so you can creep back to a station and repair. I don't think you're missing out on much anyway. After the first time testing it, I suppose you come to the exact same conclusion as the paragraph above - that it isn't worth doing it all the time anyway. So I wouldn't give it too much of a 'must have' factor. Totaly agree this is a panic button and should be used with care. I have all the req's and will train it asap. Hopefully i will never have the need to use it. But I dont think it is CCP intension that this panic button will be easy to achive, I have no prob however that powerhungry gankers want this for more or less for free. For high/low slot overloading, maybe. There's no reason not* to go around with web and scram overloaded at all times while PVPing, though. If you fit a MWD you have a huge damage sink sharing the rack, leaving a heat user able to web 90% at 13km with t1 mods. Once you've snared your prey, you just un-overload the relevant mods. This will make gallente significantly more powerful against Minmatar ships battlecruiser and below because of Minmatar falloff tactics. In general, this increases the volume of the "sphere of death" around a Gallente blaster ship with t1 web by 120%. Overloaded ecm also looks pretty tasty, though I didn't get a chance to try that out on test. edit- fixed a couple things.
DarkElf Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:35:00 - [48] You should be greatful tbh, it's a skill that everyone should have to 5. DE
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:36:00 - [49] It would be nice that if you didn't have the skills, the buttons didn't appear on the UI. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:40:00 - [50] I didn't read the entire thread but the morons saying "You need Energy Management 5 anyway" need to get a clue. This is a skill that a new to semi newer player isn't going to train up anytime soon because there are so many other more necessary skills that need to be trained before you even think about this. I am not very new to the game but I don't have it trained either. I have over a million SPs in Learning and a decent set of attribute implants which cost around 100 million isk. Even with all of that, it is going to take me two weeks just to train that one skill. I can't imagine how long it would take a newer player who doesn't have those implants and Learning skills that i do. I would guess around 3-4 weeks. While I agree that Heat isn't something that a new player should be concerned about early in his "career" or a "must have" for even the vets, it is certainly another thing in the game which widens the gap between new players and Vets. Like the OPer said, now he will have to get off of his plan to train this or else fall even further behind.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:42:00 - [51] You will notice that all of the people that say they are ok with the current times are older players. But what do you think it is to a new player? CCP advertise all of these new feature to attract new player but doesnt give them a chance in hell at using them. If you have less than 5m skill point i can almost guarantee that the majority of your skills take a week or less to train. No, im not talking about older players power training alts for a specific purpose, im talking about the guy who just started a week ago, or maybe a month ago. And wants to try the new features, with these intensive skill requirements this will only benefit the much older players, who either have the skills trained. Or can afford good implants, and have had the time to get good learning skills. If CCP wants to bring new players to this game by adding more feature they should make sure that they are feasible for them to use. And not make every new skill they introduce have skill requirements that are massive for anyone less than a capital pilot to train. Stop the carebear whine, Fix Cloaking
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:42:00 - [52] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Na'Kunni Can't we make Thermodynamic's only require Engineering level 5 + Energy Management/science level 4 Why always lower and lower the requirements?? I think it is perfectly fine as it is. If you want something special, work for it. 15 days skilltraining isn't that much! If 15 days are too long for you, then I think this heat stuff has just not worth to you. With the same arguments above you can say: awwwww, capital ships are so skill and isk intense, lower the requirements! BS 5! Capital ship skill! Poor noob never can get this! Such skills ARE NOT MEANT to be for the noobs. They are meant for the experienced guys! (btw: i also lack eng mngt V, but so what?) First off if i look to my left, i see your in a corp called "Miner Tech", now i'm not totally sure, ill check in-game, but I don't see Heat being worth anything to you at all. So hy should you bother. Heat is a PvP think imo. And my main concern is the Thermodynamics skills a rank 3 (YES rank 3) skill, but yet you have to train a rank 1 + a rank 3 skill to level 5, bit crazy imo, maybe if thermodynamics was a rank 5 maybe 6 skill, then yes i could and would actually say it was for the vets. And i'm kinda sick of people using Cap ships ect as the same argumenet, FFS cap ships are ment for the "LEET", thier skills should be sky high, I dont give two ****s about Cap ships, as i will never come across on the recieving end of thier weapons, so they don't matter to me. But I will be on the recieving end of heat. /me Bathes in the flames, seeing as im such a nub and a whiner, i lube it
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:43:00 - [53] Originally by: FireFoxx80 It would be nice that if you didn't have the skills, the buttons didn't appear on the UI. ^^
Snake Jankins Minmatar Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:43:00 - [54] I don't have energy-management V, my alt doesn't have it with his 38mil SP. But I knew that it's an important skill worth training and so it was on my todo list for like 2 years. So now it will happen. 2 weeks, not really that much tbh. Just train it and be happy. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Plave Okice Gallente Combat Systems	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:44:00 - [55] As said many times already, it's not like it's a useless skill, it's a very important one that all should get to V anyway
Edania Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes Edge Of Sanity	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:46:00 - [56] just a brief note not flaming or anything but to base assumptions on a persons corp name is a very bad thing to do, many a pirate corp has an industrial sounding name just to prey on people who think like that Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:48:00 - [57] Originally by: Plave Okice As said many times already, it's not like it's a useless skill, it's a very important one that all should get to V anyway But there are many more important skills that should go in its palce first, level 4 is a spot on skill for energy management, until you ahve a ncie set of SP under your belt, then it should go to 5. Im amarr i admit i have cap problems, but a cap booster solves that, inwhich i carry on each of my ships + 1 NOS, so its not really a, zomg, i got to go train it moment. It's just totally useless. And the last few posters have made a few good points ;),
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:49:00 - [58] Edited by: Na''Kunni on 20/06/2007 09:49:32 Originally by: Edania just a brief note not flaming or anything but to base assumptions on a persons corp name is a very bad thing to do, many a pirate corp has an industrial sounding name just to prey on people who think like that cough, why i said wait till i check in-game if it turns out nto to be my post gets deleted.... read my post FTW EDIT - I did check Miners Developers Defenders I stays
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:51:00 - [59] Originally by: Plave Okice As said many times already, it's not like it's a useless skill, it's a very important one that all should get to V anyway qft! You apparently know nothing about looking at thing from another persons perspective. For any player that has less than 6months game time these requirements are a bit too extreme. All keeping the skill requirements high will do is make it so that there is an even larger gap between new players and old ones. Stop the carebear whine, Fix Cloaking
DroppedAschild	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:52:00 - [60] Having EM 5 trained will problably save your sorry asses more often then heat will.
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:56:00 - [61] Originally by: DroppedAschild Having EM 5 trained will problably save your sorry asses more often then heat will. No it wnt, like i said above, a Cap Booster (yup the might Cap Booster), will save your ass, not an extra 4% recharge. Jeez i never leave home without a cap recharger/booster anyways, so it's not like my sorry ass is gonna get wtfpwnd, because i dint have it to level 5.
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:57:00 - [62] I would have no problem dropping the EM requirement to 4. That would still mean heat took a fair bit of training to use without making it quite so awkward - a lvl5 and 2 4s is a fairly signifiicant requirement. (Before anyone comments I already have the current skills and can schedule thermo training anytime I want, so this is not an appeal to make my own life easier.)
Edania Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes Edge Of Sanity	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:00:00 - [63] Originally by: Na'Kunni Edited by: Na''Kunni on 20/06/2007 09:49:32 Originally by: Edania just a brief note not flaming or anything but to base assumptions on a persons corp name is a very bad thing to do, many a pirate corp has an industrial sounding name just to prey on people who think like that cough, why i said wait till i check in-game if it turns out nto to be my post gets deleted.... read my post FTW EDIT - I did check Miners Developers Defenders I stays and if you were a pirate corp and went to the trouble of a a nice sounding name you think then in the corp description they would put, nah only kidding were gonna kill you and take your stuff? Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:04:00 - [64] Thermodynamics lvl4 after DT "to be honest it makes me wonder about the mental state of a person who would join a corp called Space Perverts and Forum warriors"
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:04:00 - [65] Originally by: Edania Originally by: Na'Kunni Edited by: Na''Kunni on 20/06/2007 09:49:32 Originally by: Edania just a brief note not flaming or anything but to base assumptions on a persons corp name is a very bad thing to do, many a pirate corp has an industrial sounding name just to prey on people who think like that cough, why i said wait till i check in-game if it turns out nto to be my post gets deleted.... read my post FTW EDIT - I did check Miners Developers Defenders I stays and if you were a pirate corp and went to the trouble of a a nice sounding name you think then in the corp description they would put, nah only kidding were gonna kill you and take your stuff? Well considering only 4 ppl in the corp, Gnulpie is the CEO, I wouldnt really think it was a big time pirate corp, jus a few friends having fun, mining thier life away staring at roids. Anyways were talkin about Thermodynamics here not some miner (maybe pvp) cop, lets not derail plz
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:05:00 - [66] Originally by: Kuolematon Thermodynamics lvl4 after DT i forgot YOU ARE "UBER" ZOMG quick....... ruuunnn.
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:08:00 - [67] Edited by: Na''Kunni on 20/06/2007 10:07:33 enuff of ym stupid replies anyways, i jus wanna say. I think it is stupid for the requirement to get it, my argument sticks, and i shall keep it up, until there is no more support, or until CCP say otherwise.. I'm already geared up to take a bashing 2day also from the people with EM5 already saying to stop whining an get it training.... but they failed to realise WHEN did they get EM5?? i would say atleast a year into thier char (thats jus a guess not facts). But yet we have sink to train is to use the new feature.. Bright idea imo...
Barbarellas Daughter Lonely Barbarella	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:09:00 - [68] Originally by: Milena Marich Energy Management Level 5 is not fair since not every one is Amarr pilot. Crazy... so its the long promised amarr boost? ____________________________________________ Originally by: Marduk Felzhen You have an amazing cleavage, except you have no arms :(
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:11:00 - [69] Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter Originally by: Milena Marich Energy Management Level 5 is not fair since not every one is Amarr pilot. Crazy... so its the long promised amarr boost?
Valan	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:13:00 - [70] People complaining about having to train a useful skill to train a limited use skill. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
qantua gnartians Gallente Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:17:00 - [71] Originally by: Kellyl Quote: Engineering level 5 Energy Management Level 5 Everyone should have these skills anyway :/. Everybody should be a 25M SP char right? Thats just a void argument, training time is specialisation, and people have to balance it prioritising certain skills over others. Making a panic button thats not that great, require more then 20 days of training for some, is just well stupid, anu noob training for it will be severely less capable than those that chose to actually specialise. I really hate the fact that CCP now have cluttered my UI With a whole bunch of buttons i wont have any use for in the forseeable future. Heat needs to be less visible on the UI or be instant avaliable. I hereby represents myself and noone but myself, please dont make my corp or aliance responsible for my foolis
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:17:00 - [72] Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:19:00 - [73] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. But yet they will be advertising it, to attract new players....
Ajulutsikael Hedion University	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:19:00 - [74] Originally by: qantua gnartians Originally by: Kellyl Quote: Engineering level 5 Energy Management Level 5 Everyone should have these skills anyway :/. Everybody should be a 25M SP char right? No. Everyone with 5 mil SP and any sense at all should already have those skills anyway.
Edania Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes Edge Of Sanity	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:20:00 - [75] yes yes yes your argument is valid but the other 30 people who also commented have equally valid arguments the problem of course is CCP is likely to accede to these (demands)requests as they have shown an increasing likelyhood to do my issue isnt with thermodynamics itself but with the devaluation of accomplishments and planning, a much larger issue than one currently essentially pointless skill, (yep ive tried it on test and its just groundwork for future developments) yesterday it was salvaging today it may be thermodynamics, people will assume that CCP will cave in and make more demands and therefore will do so until were besotted with people who dont wish to earn they wish to be given people who look to the future by training survey 5 got shafted more than people who bundled thru and whined about the high cost Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:21:00 - [76] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. Shouldn't be available 'instantly' as you say. but it should not take extreme amounts of time either. LV4 as requirements is fine, that means that will probably end up investing about 1-2 weeks of time, which is feasible for a newer 1-month-1 1/2 months is not as feasible. Stop the carebear whine, Fix Cloaking
Lacco	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:23:00 - [77] na'kunni, if you have not realised yet, this game takes quite a bit of time to learn skills for certain things. for example an interdictor might take up to 2,5 months of training including the sphere launcher. if you start to think about the skills that are important to you(and as it seems you have already made clear that there are more important skills to be trained than energy management V) and start to measure the time spent on training them, you might actually realise that 2 weeks of training is not a big thing. you will eventually come into a situation where you will have to train 1 skill for 2 weeks or even a longer period of time. what you should do is to make a plan of the skills you want to get at some point. you could also download a program called EveMon. that will help you to see exactly how long time it takes to go trough your skilltraining. and one more thing to the people who whine about all the new skills like pos stuff etc. you DONT have to train them all. you can be picky, you can choose what skills you want, and it is better to do so. if your a new guy and you want to train every single ship and module in this game, it might be a pain in the ass.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:26:00 - [78] Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. But yet they will be advertising it, to attract new players.... What's your point? They use cruisers and battleships to attract new players too and it's not like you can fly thm instantly. I reiterate: not everything should be available to n00bs. Oh, and Ajulutsikeal above is me too. Damn forums picking my alt as default. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Fable Hike Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:27:00 - [79] Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter Originally by: Milena Marich Energy Management Level 5 is not fair since not every one is Amarr pilot. Crazy... so its the long promised amarr boost? 25% tracking buff for Pule aint enough? ************************************ You are going too fast! Wait a minute and try again. *************************************
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:28:00 - [80] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. But yet they will be advertising it, to attract new players.... What's your point? They use cruisers and battleships to attract new players too and it's not like you can fly thm instantly. I reiterate: not everything should be available to n00bs. Oh, and Ajulutsikeal above is me too. Damn forums picking my alt as default. Yes but they can also train up & use a battleship in their first month. The skills are streamlined so new players can get into a broader range of stuff. I dont think anyone would stay tih this game if they had to learn frigate V to be able to fly a cruiser. Stop the carebear whine, Fix Cloaking
Lyn Bunnions	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:30:00 - [81] EM V takes about 17 days to train for. It's borderline useless and an insane time sink. However, as another poster said on another forum: Just don't train TD and you'll have the benefit of never laggily/accidentally blowing up your guns. :P
Valan	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:35:00 - [82] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. Yes but a must have skill isn't half as attractive to most people as p4wn3er 1111!!! skill that's a little impractical. That's why they call them noobs. Just sit back on a well fitted powerful ship and wait, when they're not killing you fast enough they'll hit the OMG! button over heat and die horribly. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:37:00 - [83] Originally by: Ajulutsikael No. Everyone with 5 mil SP and any sense at all should already have those skills anyway. You are being sarcastic, right?
Amberly Coteaz Amarr Tarnak inc. Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:38:00 - [84] Originally by: Lyn Bunnions EM V takes about 17 days to train for. It's borderline useless and an insane time sink. Bordeline useless? I think the skill requirments are perfectly fine. I wont be getting it for another two or three months yet since I need to finish the rest of my core support skills to V like navigation, AWU (well IV for this), etc. But I always planned to get it anyway, being Amarr and all To behonest if advanced weapons upgrades came out this patch people would probably whine that weapon upgrades V as a pre-req was borderline usless and an insane time sink... Diablo 2 is five years old, and apparently that makes it more mature than the people who play it.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:41:00 - [85] Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. Shouldn't be available 'instantly' as you say. but it should not take extreme amounts of time either. LV4 as requirements is fine, that means that will probably end up investing about 1-2 weeks of time, which is feasible for a newer 1-month-1 1/2 months is not as feasible. Still not seeing a problem with that. Not all specialist skills should be quick to train for, and 'heat' particularly is quite specialized in my opinion. I'm pleased to finally see a new facet of EVE that not only has reasonably high entry prerequisites, but that those prerequisites are also worth training in the first place and not just insane timesinks like Advanced Spaceship Command for example. So it takes a n00b a couple of months to get the ability to use heat. So what? Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:43:00 - [86] As an amarr without Energy Management at lvl5 already I pity you.
Disco Flint Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:44:00 - [87] Here's some fun facts: PvPing in Recons? Not available in 2 weeks. Solo running every level4 mission without a sweat? Not available in 2 weeks. Setting up a POS with your corp in lowsec/0.0? Not available in 2 weeks. Duking it out in epic (read: laggy) fleetbattles? Not available in 2 weeks. Running support for a gang in Logistics or Command Ships? Not available in 2 weeks. Mining & refining at reasonable efficiency? Not available in 2 weeks. Hauling valuable goods only to lose your freighter to a suicide gank? Not availab... I think you catch my drift. These are all features that define EVE and these are all features that attract players; yet they demand a lot of investment in skills, time and ISK. The very idea that you can PvP only versus people in the same skillpoint range is very flawed and imported from other MMOs.
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:44:00 - [88] I can, at least skillwise, be considered a vet(have the debated prereqs) - and I don't quite understand either why they have made heat have such prereqs. If they had given them lower prereqs, I would have upped the rank on Thermodynamics though. But as it is presented as a general gameplay addition, I think access perhaps should have been slightly more attainable, to give newer players a way to manage and sqeeze a little extra out of their already underpowered ships.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:45:00 - [89] Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. But yet they will be advertising it, to attract new players.... What's your point? They use cruisers and battleships to attract new players too and it's not like you can fly thm instantly. I reiterate: not everything should be available to n00bs. Oh, and Ajulutsikael above is me too. Damn forums picking my alt as default. Yes but they can also train up & use a battleship in their first month. The skills are streamlined so new players can get into a broader range of stuff. I dont think anyone would stay tih this game if they had to learn frigate V to be able to fly a cruiser. Sure, if you had to get frig V to fly cruisers that would suck, but 'heat' to me has always felt more like a T2 level ability rather than a T2 level ability and as such should have entry requirements commensurate with that level. Oh, and while a one or two month old character may be able to get in a BS, they won't be able to use it worth a damn. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:49:00 - [90] Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. Shouldn't be available 'instantly' as you say. but it should not take extreme amounts of time either. LV4 as requirements is fine, that means that will probably end up investing about 1-2 weeks of time, which is feasible for a newer 1-month-1 1/2 months is not as feasible. Still not seeing a problem with that. Not all specialist skills should be quick to train for, and 'heat' particularly is quite specialized in my opinion. I'm pleased to finally see a new facet of EVE that not only has reasonably high entry prerequisites, but that those prerequisites are also worth training in the first place and not just insane timesinks like Advanced Spaceship Command for example. So it takes a n00b a couple of months to get the ability to use heat. So what? Heat is not a mini-profession, I dont see you being a professional as 'oh **** im going to die, lets blow out my guns so i have a chance to save my ass. To use your analogy: I see it as you being a professional enough engineer to have the abilty to even think about doing it without blowing your ship up. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:51:00 - [91] Solution: Bring it down to EM 4 but increase the Thermodynamic skill up a rank or two. That way, newer players can use Heat but will have to grind to use it more effectively. Of course, it is probably too late to do this since the Thermodynamic skill is already seeded into the game and people have already started training it.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:52:00 - [92] Get rid of all pre-requisites for thermodynamics. Heat is comedically useless enough, and invades the UI so much, that it needs to be available to everyone.
Barbarellas Daughter Lonely Barbarella	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:53:00 - [93] Originally by: Disco Flint Here's some fun facts: PvPing in Recons? Not available in 2 weeks. Solo running every level4 mission without a sweat? Not available in 2 weeks. Setting up a POS with your corp in lowsec/0.0? Not available in 2 weeks. Duking it out in epic (read: laggy) fleetbattles? Not available in 2 weeks. Running support for a gang in Logistics or Command Ships? Not available in 2 weeks. Mining & refining at reasonable efficiency? Not available in 2 weeks. Hauling valuable goods only to lose your freighter to a suicide gank? Not availab... I think you catch my drift. These are all features that define EVE and these are all features that attract players; yet they demand a lot of investment in skills, time and ISK. The very idea that you can PvP only versus people in the same skillpoint range is very flawed and imported from other MMOs. being a forum ***? instant! j/k ____________________________________________ Originally by:** Marduk Felzhen You have an amazing cleavage, except you have no arms :(
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:54:00 - [94] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Ajulutsikael No. Everyone with 5 mil SP and any sense at all should already have those skills anyway. You are being sarcastic, right? No, I'm being serious. They might not be flashy uberpwn skills but there is no measure for how useful EM 5 has been for me and I would recommend any new character to get it trained as high ss possible as soon as possible. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:56:00 - [95] Originally by: Wendat Huron As an amarr without Energy Management at lvl5 already I pity you. FFS DO YOU PEOPLE NOT LISTEN.. I USE A DAMN CAP BOOSTER ON EVERY ONE OF MY SHIPS, ENERGY MANAGEMENT 5 ISNT NEEDED IF I HAVE A RATHER LARGE AMOUNT OF CAP ANYWAY + A NOS.... I AM A AMARR WITH ENERGY MANAGEMENT 4... now that will hopefulyl get noticed, so nxt time dnt bother replying with your amarr you need EM 5 anyways... cuz i don't an is eriously do think EM 5 is a sink for a rank 3 skill anyway
Ficklfrosch	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:57:00 - [96] Signed! Make new options available for new players too and not only for the old ones. Decrease needed skills on heat!
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:57:00 - [97] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Ajulutsikael No. Everyone with 5 mil SP and any sense at all should already have those skills anyway. You are being sarcastic, right? No, I'm being serious. They might not be flashy uberpwn skills but there is no measure for how useful EM 5 has been for me and I would recommend any new character to get it trained as high ss possible as soon as possible. That is strange because on every single message board I have seen where a noob asks for advice, the Vets always forgot to mention that Energy Management 5 should be one of the very first thing you train. Well until now.... But i guess it is easier to remember when there is an agenda attached to the advice.
Nicole KholdStare Gallente QUANT Corp. Southern Connection	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:01:00 - [98] I think CCP does this on purpose. This way a lot less people are able to play with the new features, which means a lot less people will come complain on the forums/file petitions, thus easing the load that is caused by the patch. Then they go ahead and lower the requirements after a week or two when the flood has gone down a bit. It was like this with a lot of other mods, salvagers and probes for example.
justcheckingthemarket	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:02:00 - [99] serieosly energy management 5 is something EVERYONE wants to save at some point, so it'S just a little more motivation to get started with it. and as others mentioned before, overloading your modules is nothing you'll do regularly and it won't be strictly necessary to be able to complete, but you'll probably won't get it anyway. sorry if i spoiled your whine ^^
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:03:00 - [100] Originally by: Nicole KholdStare I think CCP does this on purpose. This way a lot less people are able to play with the new features, which means a lot less people will come complain on the forums/file petitions, thus easing the load that is caused by the patch. Then they go ahead and lower the requirements after a week or two when the flood has gone down a bit. It was like this with a lot of other mods, salvagers and probes for example. I hope its that way and its just ccp's usual pre-nerf tactics. Stop the carebear whine, Fix Cloaking
Bobby Newark	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:04:00 - [101] Why is it that most newer players think its there god given right to have access to all new content immediately. There is so much content in eve. so many things to train for, so much to learn. why cry about thermodynamics req's? The mindset is all wrong and the sad thing is when enough of you cry it gets changed. I for one hope they keep the current requirements.
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:04:00 - [102] Originally by: justcheckingthemarket serieosly energy management 5 is something EVERYONE wants to save at some point, so it'S just a little more motivation to get started with it. and as others mentioned before, overloading your modules is nothing you'll do regularly and it won't be strictly necessary to be able to complete, but you'll probably won't get it anyway. sorry if i spoiled your whine ^^ Nope, you aint spoiled my whine, you've not said anything different to what the other anti-whine posters have said...
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:06:00 - [103] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Ajulutsikael No. Everyone with 5 mil SP and any sense at all should already have those skills anyway. You are being sarcastic, right? No, I'm being serious. They might not be flashy uberpwn skills but there is no measure for how useful EM 5 has been for me and I would recommend any new character to get it trained as high ss possible as soon as possible. That is strange because on every single message board I have seen where a noob asks for advice, the Vets always forgot to mention that Energy Management 5 should be one of the very first thing you train. Well until now.... But i guess it is easier to remember when there is an agenda attached to the advice. Have you ever seen me post on one of those boards? No? Good, cause if you had, someone would have been stealing my account to do so. :P Sorry to burst your bubble but I've always given this advice to new members of my corp and I'm currently mocking the members of my corp and alliance on our internal forums who are whinging about the exact same thing as you, so there is no agenda here. I am genuinely surprised that people don't regard EM 5 as worth training, the attitude baffles me. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:08:00 - [104] Originally by: justcheckingthemarket serieosly energy management 5 is something EVERYONE wants to save at some point, so it'S just a little more motivation to get started with it. and as others mentioned before, overloading your modules is nothing you'll do regularly and it won't be strictly necessary to be able to complete, but you'll probably won't get it anyway. sorry if i spoiled your whine ^^ Whether you use it regularly or not is pretty irrelevant. It is still a new feature which people were looking forward to using but it turned out to be just another toy for "the haves." The "Have nots" get to train for it for 2-3 weeks and THEN train another skill after that. This is called a "time sink" and a rather large one at that.
Plan Neun Caldari Ganja Unlimited	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:09:00 - [105] Originally by: Lyn Bunnions EM V takes about 17 days to train for. It's borderline useless and an insane time sink. However, as another poster said on another forum: Just don't train TD and you'll have the benefit of never laggily/accidentally blowing up your guns. :P Training 17 days for a lvl 5 skill is nothing.
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:10:00 - [106] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Ajulutsikael No. Everyone with 5 mil SP and any sense at all should already have those skills anyway. You are being sarcastic, right? No, I'm being serious. They might not be flashy uberpwn skills but there is no measure for how useful EM 5 has been for me and I would recommend any new character to get it trained as high ss possible as soon as possible. That is strange because on every single message board I have seen where a noob asks for advice, the Vets always forgot to mention that Energy Management 5 should be one of the very first thing you train. Well until now.... But i guess it is easier to remember when there is an agenda attached to the advice. Have you ever seen me post on one of those boards? No? Good, cause if you had, someone would have been stealing my account to do so. :P Sorry to burst your bubble but I've always given this advice to new members of my corp and I'm currently mocking the members of my corp and alliance on our internal forums who are whinging about the exact same thing as you, so there is no agenda here. I am genuinely surprised that people don't regard EM 5 as worth training, the attitude baffles me. energy management should be trained to 4 imo by everyone, an ONLY to 5, when they have the time to invest in it
Lyn Bunnions	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:10:00 - [107] EM V is needed if you really really need a cap stable setup(and it depends on a 4% boost, which is often unlikely). The edge it offers for people who don't fly caps or very sensitive mission boats is minor. I'm sure it is required for SOME particular ship fittings but if you, for instance, fly Caldari, Minmatar or Gallente(non, blaster boats) you can probably not have it and never notice the difference. Also it takes over 2 weeks to train for. If I want to train something with no real benefit that takes that long I'll train Cruiser V of some race, takes a bit longer but at least it unlocks useful ships.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:12:00 - [108] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Ajulutsikael No. Everyone with 5 mil SP and any sense at all should already have those skills anyway. You are being sarcastic, right? No, I'm being serious. They might not be flashy uberpwn skills but there is no measure for how useful EM 5 has been for me and I would recommend any new character to get it trained as high ss possible as soon as possible. That is strange because on every single message board I have seen where a noob asks for advice, the Vets always forgot to mention that Energy Management 5 should be one of the very first thing you train. Well until now.... But i guess it is easier to remember when there is an agenda attached to the advice. Have you ever seen me post on one of those boards? No? Good, cause if you had, someone would have been stealing my account to do so. :P Sorry to burst your bubble but I've always given this advice to new members of my corp and I'm currently mocking the members of my corp and alliance on our internal forums who are whinging about the exact same thing as you, so there is no agenda here. I am genuinely surprised that people don't regard EM 5 as worth training, the attitude baffles me. I am not saying it isn't worth training. I think it is a very good skill to get. However, a newer player who has a stack of skills piling up just so he can fly something like a Cruiser or a BC effectively isn't going to want to take 3 weeks out of that training to do this. If he does, he is pushed even further behind. Whatever you tell your corpmates is fine but I never seen anyone tell anyone on this board or any other that EM 5 is a "must get" as soon as possible. Especially never seen it said to a newer player.
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:15:00 - [109] It's fine as it is. I have a 2 years old pure Amarr pilot with Energy Management 4. He'll have to suck it up and train 5. Was never a probl to have 4 only, and he's purely pvp.. cap boosters vs nossers, apart from that he did fine. Now he'll train EM5 and well, it's a nice boost for any race tbh, just annoying 'to have to do it'. Sure it'll take him another 2 weeks now to get whateverskillhe'dtrainelseways but does it matter, over time? It's not as anyone is forced to train it. It's an optional skill which you train if you think it's worth it. Your choice - do you want the skill? Train EM5. As I have trained alot of skills during the years, skills I didn't want to train but it was required for other ships to use. Logistics for the Command Ship anyone? Leadership 5 anyone? Warfare Link Specialist anyone? I never use those skills, still I trained it just to drive wtfpwnzships. ;)
Laughlyn Vaughns Gallente Lagos-Vaughn Industries	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:16:00 - [110] i dont think the needed skills are too much, they benefit ur ship and give u access to overheat ur modules, all in all u cant really lose by gettin engineering and management to 5. i had to get engineerign to lv5 to use some of my modules and i had to get both the cap amount and recharge speed to lv5 to make my typhoons tank run and i hd to get electronics to lv5 to get everything on my nightmare. i had to get siege and cruise missiles to lv5 to use my Tech II launchers and i had to get all my shield skills upto lv5 to use a drake properly. sumtimes u just have to STFU and accept that u have to train a to Lv5 once in a while and quit whimpering about it. i want Tech II lasers or howies but i have to get large gunnery lv5 they take forever and yes i have more skills to get out the way first, i've been trainign towards Tech II 1400mm howies for about 18months now but stuff keeps coming up to train up luckily i have my medium spec to lv3 now but i till keep trundling along
Ethaet Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:17:00 - [111] Originally by: James Duar Get rid of all pre-requisites for thermodynamics. Heat is comedically useless enough, and invades the UI so much, that it needs to be available to everyone. Or just removing it entirely would probably be better.
Unaralas Save our Souls	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:17:00 - [112] Originally by: Na'Kunni snip energy management should be trained to 4 imo by everyone, an ONLY to 5, when they have the time to invest in it Well now you've got a bigger incentive to invest that time. EM5 is ALOT more useful than having access to Heat ever will be. Whinethreads like this really do make me sad. If this happens, I'll be as ****ed as I was when they lowered the reqs for Adv Learning skills.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:19:00 - [113] Originally by: Hasak Rain I am not saying it isn't worth training. I think it is a very good skill to get. However, a newer player who has a stack of skills piling up just so he can fly something like a Cruiser or a BC effectively isn't going to want to take 3 weeks out of that training to do this. If he does, he is pushed even further behind. And I'm saying that 'heat' is not and should not be new player content. I understand that many people here disagree, but to me it does come across as the sort of thing that only experienced pilots should be trying. Originally by: Hasak Rain Whatever you tell your corpmates is fine but I never seen anyone tell anyone on this board or any other that EM 5 is a "must get" as soon as possible. Especially never seen it said to a newer player. I don't doubt you, I've not looked at those boards for years so I can't comment but sentiment in this thread seems to bear you out on that point. I just don't happen to agree with you. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:20:00 - [114] Originally by: Anehra It's fine as it is. I have a 2 years old That's where i stopped reading
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:20:00 - [115] Originally by: Alex Tremayne No, I'm being serious. They might not be flashy uberpwn skills but there is no measure for how useful EM 5 has been for me and I would recommend any new character to get it trained as high ss possible as soon as possible. Over what? Frig/cruiser 5? t2 medium weapons? Decent nav skills? t2 tanking skills? Learning skills? There is a point where (without heat) EM5 is time/effect wise a good idea to train. At 4.4 mil SP this point is by far not there yet though.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:28:00 - [116] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Alex Tremayne No, I'm being serious. They might not be flashy uberpwn skills but there is no measure for how useful EM 5 has been for me and I would recommend any new character to get it trained as high ss possible as soon as possible. Over what? Frig/cruiser 5? t2 medium weapons? Decent nav skills? t2 tanking skills? Learning skills? There is a point where (without heat) EM5 is time/effect wise a good idea to train. At 4.4 mil SP this point is by far not there yet though. Personally? I wouldn't recommend a new character move from destroyers to cruisers without getting engineering, electronics and both cap skills to 5 and most of the rest of the engineering and basic electronics skills to 4. Oh and the seven non jump drive related navigation skills to at least 4, and if Caldari getting the shield hp and shield recharge skills to 5 too. So about 5 mil SP at least. That's off the top of my head so I've almost certainly missed things there. I'm aware that this makes me a lone voice in the wilderness. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:28:00 - [117] The required skills for TD are fine imo. What should be shanged is the UI for when you haven't trained the skill yet.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:29:00 - [118] Originally by: Cpt Fina The required skills for TD are fine imo. What should be shanged is the UI for when you haven't trained the skill yet. They should change the UI for when you have too. Damn but it takes up space. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:31:00 - [119] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Alex Tremayne No, I'm being serious. They might not be flashy uberpwn skills but there is no measure for how useful EM 5 has been for me and I would recommend any new character to get it trained as high ss possible as soon as possible. Over what? Frig/cruiser 5? t2 medium weapons? Decent nav skills? t2 tanking skills? Learning skills? There is a point where (without heat) EM5 is time/effect wise a good idea to train. At 4.4 mil SP this point is by far not there yet though. Personally? I wouldn't recommend a new character move from destroyers to cruisers without getting engineering, electronics and both cap skills to 5 and most of the rest of the engineering and basic electronics skills to 4. Oh and the seven non jump drive related navigation skills to at least 4, and if Caldari getting the shield hp and shield recharge skills to 5 too. So about 5 mil SP at least. That's off the top of my head so I've almost certainly missed things there. I'm aware that this makes me a lone voice in the wilderness. So your telling me when you was a noob, you trained all them skills before you moved to a cruiser, get real.... I wouldn't advise anyone to train a skill to level 5 in such an early time in thier career... I would hate for you to be my personal trainer/helper within the game, an i feel sorry for the people who are.....
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:32:00 - [120] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Hasak Rain I am not saying it isn't worth training. I think it is a very good skill to get. However, a newer player who has a stack of skills piling up just so he can fly something like a Cruiser or a BC effectively isn't going to want to take 3 weeks out of that training to do this. If he does, he is pushed even further behind. And I'm saying that 'heat' is not and should not be new player content. I understand that many people here disagree, but to me it does come across as the sort of thing that only experienced pilots should be trying. Originally by: Hasak Rain Whatever you tell your corpmates is fine but I never seen anyone tell anyone on this board or any other that EM 5 is a "must get" as soon as possible. Especially never seen it said to a newer player. I don't doubt you, I've not looked at those boards for years so I can't comment but sentiment in this thread seems to bear you out on that point. I just don't happen to agree with you. I will use myself as an example: I am not that new to the game {10M SPs} and I do some PvP and PvE. I never thought to myself "Wow, I am really hurting because I don't have that EM 5 trained yet." I have even {gasp} killed people without it. Would I be better off with EM5?....yep. Do I need it to PvP and win?......nope. Oh and the "sentiment in this thread" is loaded with vets who are telling newer players to "suck it up" since they themselves already have the skill trained. {big surprise there.} It is pretty easy to say that at that point. I wouldn't put any stock into the overall sentiment of this thread since the vets want to keep their "elite status" and the easy way to do that is to have things that others do not have. Oh and it is okay that you disagree with me. That is what these boards are for. This issue really isn't THAT important to me because EM 5 was high on my "to do list" anyway but I am drinking a lot of coffee and it is downtime so I am just discussing it and agree with those in the same boat as I am.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:33:00 - [121] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Cpt Fina The required skills for TD are fine imo. What should be shanged is the UI for when you haven't trained the skill yet. They should change the UI for when you have too. Damn but it takes up space. A fully customable UI should be implemented ASAP!
Lyn Bunnions	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:38:00 - [122] You can successfully rat in 0.0/do L4s as a 3 month old noob in a BC/BS. You won't have the needed skills to do that if you waste time on getting every skill to V just because the "old boys" say that you need to. If you would say that a noob who can't even use T2 small weapons needs in any way shape or form to train EM V/El V/Eng V and a dozen other skills you are out of your mind. You train skills to fit your ship and fly it. The only "must-have" skills are the ones that allow you to complete your current goals as fast as possible. If you want to start making cash fast you get a bunch of decent tank/damage/cap/fitting skills to 3-4 and focus on getting into a BC/BS. I've been running L4s since I was 2 months old and I still don't have large hybrids even trained for BECAUSE THEY ARE USELESS for the fitting I fly(and I hate pvping in a BS with a passion). Everyone acting as if you should have cap pilot level skills by the time you pop into a cruiser must have absurd amounts of patience with tedious Empire ****. EM V is a silly time-sink with moderate benefits at best and no benefits for most people in most situations.
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:39:00 - [123] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Hasak Rain I am not saying it isn't worth training. I think it is a very good skill to get. However, a newer player who has a stack of skills piling up just so he can fly something like a Cruiser or a BC effectively isn't going to want to take 3 weeks out of that training to do this. If he does, he is pushed even further behind. And I'm saying that 'heat' is not and should not be new player content. I understand that many people here disagree, but to me it does come across as the sort of thing that only experienced pilots should be trying. Originally by: Hasak Rain Whatever you tell your corpmates is fine but I never seen anyone tell anyone on this board or any other that EM 5 is a "must get" as soon as possible. Especially never seen it said to a newer player. I don't doubt you, I've not looked at those boards for years so I can't comment but sentiment in this thread seems to bear you out on that point. I just don't happen to agree with you. I will use myself as an example: I am not that new to the game {10M SPs} and I do some PvP and PvE. I never thought to myself "Wow, I am really hurting because I don't have that EM 5 trained yet." I have even {gasp} killed people without it. Would I be better off with EM5?....yep. Do I need it to PvP and win?......nope. Oh and the "sentiment in this thread" is loaded with vets who are telling newer players to "suck it up" since they themselves already have the skill trained. {big surprise there.} It is pretty easy to say that at that point. I wouldn't put any stock into the overall sentiment of this thread since the vets want to keep their "elite status" and the easy way to do that is to have things that others do not have. Oh and it is okay that you disagree with me. That is what these boards are for. This issue really isn't THAT important to me because EM 5 was high on my "to do list" anyway but I am drinking a lot of coffee and it is downtime so I am just discussing it and agree with those in the same boat as I am. Well said, I probably couldn't say it better myself, apart from a few swear words here an there
Santa Anna	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:40:00 - [124] Originally by: ghosttr Heat is not a mini-profession, I dont see you being a professional as 'oh **** im going to die, lets blow out my guns so i have a chance to save my ass. While some may use heat as a last-ditch survival failsafe, it's more practical applications involve ewar/propulsion jamming. IMO, the skill requirement should be high so that adoption will be gradual. If everyone had 13km 90% webs and 30km warp disruptors overnight can you imagine the whineage volume on the forums?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:40:00 - [125] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Personally? I wouldn't recommend a new character move from destroyers to cruisers without getting engineering, electronics and both cap skills to 5 and most of the rest of the engineering and basic electronics skills to 4. Oh and the seven non jump drive related navigation skills to at least 4, and if Caldari getting the shield hp and shield recharge skills to 5 too. So about 5 mil SP at least. That's off the top of my head so I've almost certainly missed things there. And zero weapon skills and zero learning skills. No armortanking skills either. Sounds VERY effective
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:42:00 - [126] Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. Shouldn't be available 'instantly' as you say. but it should not take extreme amounts of time either. LV4 as requirements is fine, that means that will probably end up investing about 1-2 weeks of time, which is feasible for a newer 1-month-1 1/2 months is not as feasible. If you think a Rank 3 skill to level 5 is "extreme", then... well, never mind, you'll soon find out. People in this thread are talking as if Heat is some sine qua non - not a last ditch option for someone who's probably doomed anyway. Why not wait to see how it pans out before crying that you have to wait a couple of weeks for it?
Drykor Minmatar Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:43:00 - [127] Seriously, it's not your god-given right to be able to train new skills instantly. They promote Eve with capitals too and you won't fly those in the first year either. Personally I don't have EM 5 yet, my char is slightly over 8 months old and specced for interceptors. This skill was however planned for late july, and I don't think I'm even going to move it forward in my skillplan. Heat is something the new people really don't _need_, there's plenty of other stuff to find out about. If you really want it, then just train the bloody pre-req.
Razvedchitsa	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:46:00 - [128] LOLer skaters. I KNEW this one is coming. Comrades, keep the volume of whinage high enough and you will get reqs lowered.
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:46:00 - [129] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. Shouldn't be available 'instantly' as you say. but it should not take extreme amounts of time either. LV4 as requirements is fine, that means that will probably end up investing about 1-2 weeks of time, which is feasible for a newer 1-month-1 1/2 months is not as feasible. If you think a Rank 3 skill to level 5 is "extreme", then... well, never mind, you'll soon find out. People in this thread are talking as if Heat is some sine qua non - not a last ditch option for someone who's probably doomed anyway. Why not wait to see how it pans out before crying that you have to wait a couple of weeks for it? I aint even used it, but i kno witht he right amount of experience with it, you can become an use the modules effectively an to your advantage. Not just as a oh fuk moment.
Jdestars Stars Research systems Incorporation	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:47:00 - [130] I hope that CCP is not going to give up to the weeping and to lower the prerequired of this skill.Rolling Eyes Eve is one games where one have to choose even this it have to pass by a specialization you can use overheat without this skill , but if you want to become power full , pay the price ;) noob want to flying with all vessel, Eve are not a game for roxxor.. i'd play to Eve since almost 4 year and ihavent energy management V , 10d for obtain its not the end of the world ...
Lyn Bunnions	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:48:00 - [131] Whatever happens I hope there is a skill that is required to use Heat. That way I can not train it and never accidentally activate the ******. Drone boats in missions or PvP have pretty much 0 need of it so meh
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:51:00 - [132] Originally by: Jdestars I hope that CCP is not going to give up to the weeping and to lower the prerequired of this skill.Rolling Eyes Eve is one games where one have to choose even this it have to pass by a specialization you can use overheat without this skill , but if you want to become power full , pay the price ;) noob want to flying with all vessel, Eve are not a game for roxxor.. i'd play to Eve since almost 4 year and ihavent energy management V , 10d for obtain its not the end of the world ... Here we go again, another 1-2year+ vet, who has most skills like trained for, who doesnt have to worry too much about giving up the "10" (you must have nice attributes, for a rank3 skills to take 10 days to train) days to train EM 5.
Edania Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes Edge Of Sanity	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:51:00 - [133] Originally by: Jdestars I hope that CCP is not going to give up to the weeping and to lower the prerequired of this skill.Rolling Eyes Eve is one games where one have to choose even this it have to pass by a specialization you can use overheat without this skill , but if you want to become power full , pay the price ;) noob want to flying with all vessel, Eve are not a game for roxxor.. i'd play to Eve since almost 4 year and ihavent energy management V , 10d for obtain its not the end of the world ... fraid not, if it worked this way no-one would give a flying pidgeon however you need it at 1 to overheat Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:52:00 - [134] Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Alex Tremayne Personally? I wouldn't recommend a new character move from destroyers to cruisers without getting engineering, electronics and both cap skills to 5 and most of the rest of the engineering and basic electronics skills to 4. Oh and the seven non jump drive related navigation skills to at least 4, and if Caldari getting the shield hp and shield recharge skills to 5 too. So about 5 mil SP at least. That's off the top of my head so I've almost certainly missed things there. I'm aware that this makes me a lone voice in the wilderness. So your telling me when you was a noob, you trained all them skills before you moved to a cruiser, get real.... On this character? No, and I regretted it. On my second character, (now around 20mil SP) I learned from my mistakes and didn't train cruisers until I had 8mil SP rounding out all the Eng/Elec/Nav/Mech support skills. The support skills are so much more important than learning new shiny ships and guns. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:53:00 - [135] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 11:53:28 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. Shouldn't be available 'instantly' as you say. but it should not take extreme amounts of time either. LV4 as requirements is fine, that means that will probably end up investing about 1-2 weeks of time, which is feasible for a newer 1-month-1 1/2 months is not as feasible. If you think a Rank 3 skill to level 5 is "extreme", then... well, never mind, you'll soon find out. People in this thread are talking as if Heat is some sine qua non - not a last ditch option for someone who's probably doomed anyway. Why not wait to see how it pans out before crying that you have to wait a couple of weeks for it? To newer players, it is extreme. It will take me two weeks to get from EM4 to EM5. That being with 100 mill in implants and over 1 Mill in Learning SPs. Someone who does not have that stuff is probably staring at around a month's worth of training. Yes something like BS 5 is much worse in terms of training but being able to have all your bonuses on the biggest non capital in the game and being able to use a small feature like Heat are two different things. In other words, the skills that you are referring to SHOULD be more extreme since training them gives you so much more.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:53:00 - [136] Na'Kunni, If you think that other skills are more important than EM V and that they should be trained before..... THEN TRAIN THEM! It's not very complicated.
Santa Anna	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:55:00 - [137] Originally by: Malcanis People in this thread are talking as if Heat is some sine qua non - not a last ditch option for someone who's probably doomed anyway. I know it was pitched that way in one of the live dev blogs, but the way it's been implemented doesn't reflect that initial description. Check out what you can do with the mid slot modules and how much damage a mwd can absorb before it goes inactive when it's not being overloaded. Overloaded mid-slots are definitely offensive weapons. Overloading your repper in an attempt to not die will just kill your cap -- if you're going to die you're going to die. Overloading your weapons will burn them out pretty quickly. Overloading your shield booster will pretty much kill you if you fit an amp. Overloading a web or a scram lets you get a fight from someone who otherwise would have escaped. People who use heat well will get a lot more kills, especially early on. That's why it has to have a steep skill requirement.
Jdestars Stars Research systems Incorporation	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:56:00 - [138] i'mp a scientic with good mem/int but poor will/perc its a choice that i pay in other skill ;) change balancing skill system because some ppl are impatient are always a bad choice ;)
Valan	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:01:00 - [139] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Hasak Rain I am not saying it isn't worth training. I think it is a very good skill to get. However, a newer player who has a stack of skills piling up just so he can fly something like a Cruiser or a BC effectively isn't going to want to take 3 weeks out of that training to do this. If he does, he is pushed even further behind. And I'm saying that 'heat' is not and should not be new player content. I understand that many people here disagree, but to me it does come across as the sort of thing that only experienced pilots should be trying. Originally by: Hasak Rain Whatever you tell your corpmates is fine but I never seen anyone tell anyone on this board or any other that EM 5 is a "must get" as soon as possible. Especially never seen it said to a newer player. I don't doubt you, I've not looked at those boards for years so I can't comment but sentiment in this thread seems to bear you out on that point. I just don't happen to agree with you. I will use myself as an example: I am not that new to the game {10M SPs} and I do some PvP and PvE. I never thought to myself "Wow, I am really hurting because I don't have that EM 5 trained yet." I have even {gasp} killed people without it. Would I be better off with EM5?....yep. Do I need it to PvP and win?......nope. Oh and the "sentiment in this thread" is loaded with vets who are telling newer players to "suck it up" since they themselves already have the skill trained. {big surprise there.} It is pretty easy to say that at that point. I wouldn't put any stock into the overall sentiment of this thread since the vets want to keep their "elite status" and the easy way to do that is to have things that others do not have. Oh and it is okay that you disagree with me. That is what these boards are for. This issue really isn't THAT important to me because EM 5 was high on my "to do list" anyway but I am drinking a lot of coffee and it is downtime so I am just discussing it and agree with those in the same boat as I am. To be honest I've said numerous times to numerous people that engineering is one of the most important categories to have. See if you can find one og Tank CEOs threads from back in the day and see how many skill points he has in engineering and how many he had in gunnery. He was considered one of the best PvPers around at the time. I wouldn't rate the thermal damage skill over any of the engineering skills. Especially for 0.0 if you kill a module in deep 0.0 you're buggered. Out of interest has there been any mention of a module repair module? /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:03:00 - [140] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Alex Tremayne Personally? I wouldn't recommend a new character move from destroyers to cruisers without getting engineering, electronics and both cap skills to 5 and most of the rest of the engineering and basic electronics skills to 4. Oh and the seven non jump drive related navigation skills to at least 4, and if Caldari getting the shield hp and shield recharge skills to 5 too. So about 5 mil SP at least. That's off the top of my head so I've almost certainly missed things there. And zero weapon skills and zero learning skills. No armortanking skills either. Sounds VERY effective So I missed some stuff as I said thought I had. Mea culpa. When I created my combat alt I didn't move from destroyers to cruisers until I had about 8 mil SP including all the advanced learning to 4, (which of course I recommend that anyone trains first :P) Obviously training of frigates and destroyers and their weapons is important too, but they were somewhat secondary for me and I didn't find my effectiveness reduced in that regard. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Lyn Bunnions	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:03:00 - [141] Right now Heat is good for overloading Webbers, generally it's probably only going to be effectively used for that since scram range is not an issue once the target is webbed. Overloading guns means you get 2-3 salvos off and then you die, overloading the reppers might be viable for a nos-boat to prolong its tank for a while. Overloading MWD/AB is silly except for situations like the one with the web where you need one cycle to get in range. Anything else is pointless. Heat adds value pretty much exclusively to solo-pvpers imo, its nice flavour for others but not really smart to use.
Edania Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes Edge Of Sanity	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:04:00 - [142] Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Jdestars I hope that CCP is not going to give up to the weeping and to lower the prerequired of this skill.Rolling Eyes Eve is one games where one have to choose even this it have to pass by a specialization you can use overheat without this skill , but if you want to become power full , pay the price ;) noob want to flying with all vessel, Eve are not a game for roxxor.. i'd play to Eve since almost 4 year and ihavent energy management V , 10d for obtain its not the end of the world ... Here we go again, another 1-2year+ vet, who has most skills like trained for, who doesnt have to worry too much about giving up the "10" (you must have nice attributes, for a rank3 skills to take 10 days to train) days to train EM 5. i think new people deserve and need to advance to where i am now faster than i did so people catch up in terms of gain/time invested to do anything less alienates any new player base, so what if the new things affect older players at release two years from now there will be the same discussions as a xth round ofimprovments are released to help noobs catch up, then you get to take dvantage immediatly as do i and this whine cycle continues, then later there in the same position. Catching up is not the same as advancing quicker. however to diminish the achievments of old time players is equally stupid not only do they lose players who are old customers they lose ne wplayers who have the forsight to see that your achivments will mean nothing in the long run you get presented with difficult choices oh my, devestating! your getting no less screwed over than countless people have for the entire duration of eve, whenever anything changes you have exactly three options, adapt your plan, make do without. or cry and hope your blubbering tears encourage people to take pity on you Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:07:00 - [143] Originally by: Cpt Fina Na'Kunni, If you think that other skills are more important than EM V and that they should be trained before..... THEN TRAIN THEM! It's not very complicated. You speak to me like im the only one with a problem with it.... I don't ahve no problem to train engineering to 5.... no problem at all. But lets look details Engineering (Rank "1") Energy Management (Rank "3") -----Total------ (Rank "4") Thermodynamics (Rank "3") So basically you have to train a rank 4 skill, to train to a rank 3 skill. Small Energy Turret is a rank 1 skill, for specialization it's rank 3, then Medium Energy Turret is rank 3, for the specialization its rank 5, an it goes up. Same goes for learning skills Rank 1 for the first, rank 3 for the second. Same with missiles..... same with probably almost every other skill that goes up.. Why the **** does Thermodynamics have to be different... Yes it is rather big deal to me, as my whole EVE life revolves around PvP, i already have a hard time gettin used to my BC as it is, now i have to contest with heat aswell... and for me to train that i have to take 20 days away from my original training, to get that... if it was lower then ye would be on my list in a week or 2. Atm im gettin WU to 5, then its the medium turrets, then its AWU to 4, then hull upgrades 5, then again finishing off my support skills. Thats already a month or two of training. And no its not very complicated for my brain to tell me to train something else, but its very complicated to be held behind to get myself an extra 4% recharge/cap an waste the days off my normal training times, just to use a feature.... im not the only one unhappy about this.
Zeko Rena Caldari Tangent Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:08:00 - [144] Since i posted in the other thread, and tarts keep making more, all ill say is, dont give in CCP dont give in! Ill protect you with my T2 Bat -------------------------- Har Har, sig is finnaly mod proof.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:10:00 - [145] Heat is not some overpowering advantage and I don't know why people keep acting like it is. It's a crappy game mechanic cheated out of it's only real audience (younger players) by skill requirements which compete directly with far far more useful and applicable skills rather then some "get out of danger maybe..occasionally..please?" skill.
Sapphrine The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:12:00 - [146] Energy Management V is a Tier III skill. I am certainly not a noob but i'd say i wasn't a veteran per se either. I haven't needed that skill till now so haven't trained it. Now I will need it to use heat... so be it. Problem i see from you Na'Kunni is that you seem to have decided you must have heat to pvp effectively. You have a training plan already and this messes with that. All I can really say is that it is a judgement call imho. They brought out new features in the patch and they are not things that you just start with. You need to choose, take a few weeks out to train a skill which will have value in the future (cap IS life at the end of it all) but which you had initially not schedule any time soon, or train it later. IMHO, I think the training time is about right. It will inconvenience me from an immediate goal in the next few weeks if I train straight to it but I'd need the skill eventually so it is hardly lost time overall. Its all about your priorities. tbh, I think it is ok as it is, even though I wont be able to use it for a while.
darklegionca Caldari Blood Eagle Federation Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:12:00 - [147] I rember threads like this for the salvage mod so lets hope they bring down the the skill lv ------------------------------------ darklegionca - One name. One legend.
Jdestars Stars Research systems Incorporation	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:19:00 - [148] Completely all right after a test on singularity a system stand of launcher integer was burned(blown) out after 4-5 waves of missile on 1 npc in 800k, to believe that the overheating is going to be the key of the victory pvp is imaginary... A contribution yes, but badly managed and it will precipitate you in your pod lagg.... , bad pull (pve) The progress skill is faster maintaining that 4 years ago further to the implementation of the implant +4 +5 and skill of advanced learning (fisrt implant seed in 2004 (+3)
Celior	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:22:00 - [149] Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. But yet they will be advertising it, to attract new players.... Wait, so they're advertising features that are not immediately avaliable to new players!?!?!? This is an outrage! CCP is actively conning customers with features that take upwards three weeks to use!! CCP really needs to take a long hard look at Blizzard that immediately give players access to all features from the get go.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:23:00 - [150] Originally by: Mica Swanhaven Mica says... so you want Thermodynamics to be a rank 5 skill? will that make you happy? Rank 5 works for me. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
coldplasma Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:23:00 - [151] I will not be training this skill now that I have seen the reqs. I have much more useful and important things to train. _________________
Cornucopian Gallente Dutch Omega SYSTEM SHOCK INITIATIVE	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:25:00 - [152] Originally by: Milena Marich Energy Management Level 5 is not fair since not every one is Amarr pilot. Crazy... lol yeah! Amarr are overpowered as it is!! Nerf AMARR NOW!!! they are too strong!!! (for extra obviousness: this is a joke, like the rest of the thread.) dear CCP: please give me capships skills. I dont want to train for em. I am lazy. please lower the requirements? Dear CCP: Titan material costs are high, please lower them to 10trit an 5mega so that I can build one for my 2 man corp? Dear CCP: I keep getting ganked when I go to low-sec. this is unfair. Please ban all pirates from eve so I can have fun. Dear CCP: I am a member of a big alliance. I have the most 0.0 space in eve. No one challenges our domination anymore. please make eve more fun by creating a new server called BoB-online. all people will have to do is fight us. it would be fun. Dear CCP: Please release some cheats like a godmode and infinite speed in the new patch. the game is too hard for me. in short: OP, you are whining like a little girl. enough already. or better yet, play some FPS on godmode if you wanna insta have everything. I mean seriously, whats up with the youth today... ----------------------------------------------- "LowSec Pirates are like the seagulls in Finding Nemo: instead if "mine! mine!" all they do is yell "gank! gank!" in local." In short: brainless
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:26:00 - [153] That's the way of EVE. Training of specializations (like heat) requires time. Who ever said that Heat has to be available to new chars in a very short time? No, it's a high end specialization skill. And taking that into account, it's real cheap to get. Next big thing, we will have people complaining they are n00bs and they can't fly a Mackinaw or Carriers because they can't train it all in one month. Pfft, if you want high specializations cheap then we might as well forget about skillz and add levels like any other MMORPG. Those who grind most and faster will get trained up in not time! Problem solved! And goodbye EVE BTW, if they implement that. _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:26:00 - [154] Originally by: Celior Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. But yet they will be advertising it, to attract new players.... Wait, so they're advertising features that are not immediately avaliable to new players!?!?!? This is an outrage! CCP is actively conning customers with features that take upwards three weeks to use!! CCP really needs to take a long hard look at Blizzard that immediately give players access to all features from the get go. Idiot, no one is saying that it should be immediately available.
Lord Loom Loom Service	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:26:00 - [155] Originally by: Alex Tremayne So I missed some stuff as I said thought I had. Mea culpa. When I created my combat alt I didn't move from destroyers to cruisers until I had about 8 mil SP including all the advanced learning to 4, (which of course I recommend that anyone trains first :P) Obviously training of frigates and destroyers and their weapons is important too, but they were somewhat secondary for me and I didn't find my effectiveness reduced in that regard. just a question, what did you do with that char in the months it took you to learn 8M SP "essential" support skills? Oh right, you had your main with a lot more SP already - what's the newbie with a handful of SP supposed to do while training all this oh so useful stuff to 5? Run level 1 missions? Mine in a Bantam? People wait for alts to "efficiently" train learning first, then everything they need towards a specific goal, they don't sit around waiting for a half-year skillplan to finish just to quit after 2 months out of sheer boredom get a clue, elitist jerk (not that I have any problem with the "heat" skill reqs, I loathe it with a passion, I'm happy that I can't use it, now all I want is that they remove the UI clutter I will never need)
coldplasma Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:28:00 - [156] Personally, I would benefit infinitely more by training better guns and better ships than an overrated skill. Your heat won't save you when I'm pounding on your battleship with a vagabond with T2 guns. _________________
Edania Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes Edge Of Sanity	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:31:00 - [157] its hardly the first timethat you pay more for the pre-reqs than the skill how many tiers do you need at 5 to train the rank 14 carrier skill? 8 battleship 5 advanced space ship command 5 drone interfacing 1 ssc 1 drones 20/14 ice processing rank 5 3 refining efficiency 1 engineering 1 refining 1 science 6/5 to fly a command ship comand ship skill is rank 8 but you need 5 battlecruiser 5 racial cruiser 1 leadership 1 ssc 12/8 Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:31:00 - [158] Originally by: coldplasma Personally, I would benefit infinitely more by training better guns and better ships than an overrated skill. Your heat won't save you when I'm pounding on your battleship with a vagabond with T2 guns. Right because you will run away in your Vaga and even with Heat, I won't be able to catch that ship.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:32:00 - [159] Originally by: coldplasma Personally, I would benefit infinitely more by training better guns and better ships than an overrated skill. Your heat won't save you when I'm pounding on your battleship with a vagabond with T2 guns. Exactly. The entire point of Heat as CCP were selling it was to give an advantage to newer players so they could roll the dice and take a chance to try and get out of a tight situation. It's pretty laughable that this will ever happen with module burn outs after 3-4 cycles, but all I see in this thread is a bunch of vets going "lol stupid newbs how dare they!"
coldplasma Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:33:00 - [160] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: coldplasma Personally, I would benefit infinitely more by training better guns and better ships than an overrated skill. Your heat won't save you when I'm pounding on your battleship with a vagabond with T2 guns. Right because you will run away in your Vaga and even with Heat, I won't be able to catch that ship. We'll see if you're still laughing when it's your battleship I'm killing. _________________
Zaqar	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:33:00 - [161] Posted this in the other topic, but lets let that one die: Lets say CCP introduced the skill with a pre-requisite of level 4 instead of 5. Would any of you complain that 4 was too low? Probably not, and nor would I, yet all these whines for it to be reduced still bug me. After the salvaging/exploration probe skill requirements fiascos, we're used to CCP backing down and lowering the requirements to quell the complaints. I think its CCP's attitude to this sort of thing - not the players'- that's annoying to me. The power of the whine is strong, but I'd have hoped that they would have learned from what's happened before. CCP, I don't know if you intend to make this change or not. I suspect it will be changed but I may be wrong of course. Whatever, please make a decision and stick to it. Pilots, give me a show of hands please: Who now is gonna train Energy Management V, and who is gonna wait to see if CCP back down and lower the reqs?
qantua gnartians Gallente Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:34:00 - [162] Originally by: Alex TremayneAnd I'm saying that 'heat' is not and should not be new player content. I understand that many people here disagree, but to me it does come across as the sort of thing that only experienced pilots should be trying. [/quote Wry is heat not noob content and when is new content suited for noobs, what the actual harm in giving noobs and vets the same new content, especially since it's on everybody'¿s UI. I see at lot of this train for 5 months before playing, going on here, and i dont really see anyone explaing wry it have to be like that. So can everyone please tell me wry heat cant be handed to everyone? I hereby represents myself and noone but myself, please dont make my corp or aliance responsible for my foolis
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:35:00 - [163] Originally by: James Duar Originally by: coldplasma Personally, I would benefit infinitely more by training better guns and better ships than an overrated skill. Your heat won't save you when I'm pounding on your battleship with a vagabond with T2 guns. Exactly. The entire point of Heat as CCP were selling it was to give an advantage to newer players so they could roll the dice and take a chance to try and get out of a tight situation. It's pretty laughable that this will ever happen with module burn outs after 3-4 cycles, but all I see in this thread is a bunch of vets going "lol stupid newbs how dare they!" That is okay. Let these idiots who say "suck it up" continue to post. I figure the bigger this thread gets, the more likely it will get changed.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:37:00 - [164] Originally by: coldplasma Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: coldplasma Personally, I would benefit infinitely more by training better guns and better ships than an overrated skill. Your heat won't save you when I'm pounding on your battleship with a vagabond with T2 guns. Right because you will run away in your Vaga and even with Heat, I won't be able to catch that ship. We'll see if you're still laughing when it's your battleship I'm killing. Do you mean my Abaddon? That is the only BS that I currently own. I suppose you know who my main is because that sounded like some sort of threat. {oooh...shiver}
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:38:00 - [165] Originally by: Lord Loom Edited by: Lord Loom on 20/06/2007 12:28:12 Edited by: Lord Loom on 20/06/2007 12:26:48 Originally by: Alex Tremayne So I missed some stuff as I said thought I had. Mea culpa. When I created my combat alt I didn't move from destroyers to cruisers until I had about 8 mil SP including all the advanced learning to 4, (which of course I recommend that anyone trains first :P) Obviously training of frigates and destroyers and their weapons is important too, but they were somewhat secondary for me and I didn't find my effectiveness reduced in that regard. just a question, what did you do with that char in the months it took you to learn 8M SP "essential" support skills? Oh right, you had your main with a lot more SP already - what's the newbie with a handful of SP supposed to do while training all this oh so useful stuff to 5? Run level 1 missions? Mine in a Bantam? People wait for alts to "efficiently" train learning first, then everything they need towards a specific goal, but you're deluded if you think they will sit around waiting for a half-year skillplan to finish on their first/only char - if they would follow your advice, there were even more newbies who would quit after 2 months out of sheer boredom get a clue, elitist jerk (not that I have any problem with the "heat" skill reqs, I loathe the implementation of this long-hyped feature with a passion, I'm happy that I can't use it, now all I want is that they remove the UI clutter for people who don't train to use it) Actually I used the alt to low/nosec pirate in rifters and thrashers because at the time this character was in ISS and I needed a PvP fix that wasn't fleet warfare. It was good fun and I enjoyed it a lot and it gave me valuble practice. To be fair I'm not going to be training heat either, I see it as a niche skill at best and a true liabilty at worst and it's already completely buggered my UI. I still don't think it should be easy to learn though. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:43:00 - [166] Quite a few complaints about Heat messing up the UI but I sort of like the new look. If you can't use it, it doesn't really change much except the look.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:46:00 - [167] Originally by: Hasak Rain Quite a few complaints about Heat messing up the UI but I sort of like the new look. If you can't use it, it doesn't really change much except the look. It takes up more space along the bottom of the screen where I keep other things, and it makes it difficult to see if the modules are active or not. I want rid of it. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:48:00 - [168] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Hasak Rain Quite a few complaints about Heat messing up the UI but I sort of like the new look. If you can't use it, it doesn't really change much except the look. It takes up more space along the bottom of the screen where I keep other things, and it makes it difficult to see if the modules are active or not. I want rid of it. I don't have that problem. Maybe it is your resolution?
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:48:00 - [169] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: James Duar Originally by: coldplasma Personally, I would benefit infinitely more by training better guns and better ships than an overrated skill. Your heat won't save you when I'm pounding on your battleship with a vagabond with T2 guns. Exactly. The entire point of Heat as CCP were selling it was to give an advantage to newer players so they could roll the dice and take a chance to try and get out of a tight situation. It's pretty laughable that this will ever happen with module burn outs after 3-4 cycles, but all I see in this thread is a bunch of vets going "lol stupid newbs how dare they!" That is okay. Let these idiots who say "suck it up" continue to post. I figure the bigger this thread gets, the more likely it will get changed. Sure, CCP gives up to whinage... I wonder if when EVE turns into a crappy game due to DEVs paying attention to the massive whinage, you will stick around paying your sub in an unbalanced just because CCP once gave in to your requests.... I don't think so. So shut up! _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Valan	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:51:00 - [170] Actually u-turn. Make it level 3 lets get everyone overloading modules all the time instead of in those rare tactical situations. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Tenebrion Darkness	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:52:00 - [171] Why do you see "vets" saying suck it up? Because of how good "noobs" have it nowadays. With the amount of sp you start with and the many skills that have had their reqs droped, it isn't even funny. I remember spending the first 2-3 months training nothing but learning (back when you needed lvl 5 basic to get adv). I had an older player tell me about 10 days ago, that being amarr I should get my EM maxed (was at 4) so I started in on it, will be done in 4 days. Will I train for heat, yes, will I ever use heat, prob not.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:52:00 - [172] Originally by: sesanti Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: James Duar Originally by: coldplasma Personally, I would benefit infinitely more by training better guns and better ships than an overrated skill. Your heat won't save you when I'm pounding on your battleship with a vagabond with T2 guns. Exactly. The entire point of Heat as CCP were selling it was to give an advantage to newer players so they could roll the dice and take a chance to try and get out of a tight situation. It's pretty laughable that this will ever happen with module burn outs after 3-4 cycles, but all I see in this thread is a bunch of vets going "lol stupid newbs how dare they!" That is okay. Let these idiots who say "suck it up" continue to post. I figure the bigger this thread gets, the more likely it will get changed. Sure, CCP gives up to whinage... I wonder if when EVE turns into a crappy game due to DEVs paying attention to the massive whinage, you will stick around paying your sub in an unbalanced just because CCP once gave in to your requests.... I don't think so. So shut up! Tell you what. If you can make me shut up, ill give you a cookie. So far, you aren't impressing me kid. That aside, I don't really understand the rest of your post. Looks like something from 12 year old on a WoW board.
Lyn Bunnions	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:53:00 - [173] Originally by: Valan Actually u-turn. Make it level 3 lets get everyone overloading modules all the time instead of in those rare tactical situations. I'm cool with that. The more "skilled" players use the feature the more 3 year-old fools are going to lose their nice faction fitted ships.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:55:00 - [174] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Hasak Rain Quite a few complaints about Heat messing up the UI but I sort of like the new look. If you can't use it, it doesn't really change much except the look. It takes up more space along the bottom of the screen where I keep other things, and it makes it difficult to see if the modules are active or not. I want rid of it. I don't have that problem. Maybe it is your resolution? Unlikely. I'm on 1920 by 1200, and I'm not out of room by any stretch of the imagination. It's just that the module buttons now take up more room than they did with a worthless gimmick I'm never going to use. I want the option to be rid of it. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Valan	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:58:00 - [175] Originally by: Lyn Bunnions Originally by: Valan Actually u-turn. Make it level 3 lets get everyone overloading modules all the time instead of in those rare tactical situations. I'm cool with that. The more "skilled" players use the feature the more 3 year-old fools are going to lose their nice faction fitted ships. FFS shush! /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Celior	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:59:00 - [176] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Celior Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. But yet they will be advertising it, to attract new players.... Wait, so they're advertising features that are not immediately avaliable to new players!?!?!? This is an outrage! CCP is actively conning customers with features that take upwards three weeks to use!! CCP really needs to take a long hard look at Blizzard that immediately give players access to all features from the get go. Idiot, no one is saying that it should be immediately available. Nope, true that. But moving the req from level 5 to level 4 is what, a 85% decrease or something? That's almost immediately in my mind. The idea with HEAT is appearently something of a last ditch effort to escape/tank/kamikaze by using the most of a ship, something that requires experience supposedly. I'm going to have to train EM 5 if I want to use HEAT. But I won't, since I don't.
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:02:00 - [177] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: sesanti Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: James Duar Originally by: coldplasma Personally, I would benefit infinitely more by training better guns and better ships than an overrated skill. Your heat won't save you when I'm pounding on your battleship with a vagabond with T2 guns. Exactly. The entire point of Heat as CCP were selling it was to give an advantage to newer players so they could roll the dice and take a chance to try and get out of a tight situation. It's pretty laughable that this will ever happen with module burn outs after 3-4 cycles, but all I see in this thread is a bunch of vets going "lol stupid newbs how dare they!" That is okay. Let these idiots who say "suck it up" continue to post. I figure the bigger this thread gets, the more likely it will get changed. Sure, CCP gives up to whinage... I wonder if when EVE turns into a crappy game due to DEVs paying attention to the massive whinage, you will stick around paying your sub in an unbalanced just because CCP once gave in to your requests.... I don't think so. So shut up! Tell you what. If you can make me shut up, ill give you a cookie. So far, you aren't impressing me kid. That aside, I don't really understand the rest of your post. Looks like something from 12 year old on a WoW board. It's easy man, what i am saying is, mass complaining about something, CCP gives in and changes it... Then it happens again... and again... and again... When this has happened much too often, the game will become unbalanced or unattractive, people will leave and i bet a lot of those who whined will leave as well - they will definitely NOT stick around paying their subs just because once CCP gave in to their whinage. They will take their bucks elsewhere while the game will go extinct. This is not different. Heat is a very cheap specialization skill (in terms of training) compared to all the others. Since when it has to be available to new chars? I would like to fly Carriers in one week from now, but do you see me forming part of a massive whinage to have their reqs changed? I don't think so. _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:03:00 - [178] I need 20 days before O cam use heat, that's ok, I was just exited to see how it works but I'll wait the 20 days too. I bet I will not ever realy need it either. I just hope it is fun. too bad I'm not realy going on the test server, I do not like to have the surprize or newness takin away befor I use it in game. A Minmater City... Cool! My Skills
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:04:00 - [179] Originally by: Tenebrion Darkness No "we" (I would probably not be considered a vet) just get disgruntled when players ask for things to be easier when in many ways they already are. It isn't about it being easier. It takes no "skill" to have to wait around for another three weeks of training. More like annoying and unnecessary. At least that is how I view it. Lets face it, eventually, most of us are going to get it trained anyway. As it is now, I just view it as an unnecessary time sink.
Zeko Rena Caldari Tangent Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:05:00 - [180] Quote: It is the Vets who are jealous and resentful of the newer players in other words. Omg how did you know, im so jelous you will never have as much sp as me, my secret is out, im doomed now... fellow vets... please, support me, hug me, tell me its all going to be okay please! I dont know if i can go on.... now my secrets out... whats left for me... Seriously tho, why would vets be jelous, to be honest i dont care if charecters who havent been in EVE as long as me can use ships/equipment i cant, i just dont see why so many players want to try to skip the queue and get everything now rather then working for it, it will make it so much more gratifying when you get there. -------------------------- Har Har, sig is finnaly mod proof.
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:10:00 - [181] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Tenebrion Darkness No "we" (I would probably not be considered a vet) just get disgruntled when players ask for things to be easier when in many ways they already are. It isn't about it being easier. It takes no "skill" to have to wait around for another three weeks of training. More like annoying and unnecessary. At least that is how I view it. Lets face it, eventually, most of us are going to get it trained anyway. As it is now, I just view it as an unnecessary time sink. Yes, this just happens with every other skill past the basic ones and does that mean they all have to be changed? _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:10:00 - [182] Originally by: Hasak Rain It is the Vets who are jealous and resentful of the newer players in other words. I assume you don't have any problems with veteran players making generalizing statements about new players, right? The prerequisitss for Thermo didn't affect me since I have them all anyway. But I did look at them, and was quite surprised at how high they were. The skills in question are pretty beneficial to any player to have at those levels anyway. My surprise came from the requirements being so high for something which is front-and-center in the UI for everyone, regardless of character age. You can see temp gauges and overheat toggles all over the place, visible even with the smallest guns in the game. The curious will see it and want to try it out, but then look at the requirements and probably focus their training elsewhere. Then again, one could say the same thing about capital ships, tech 2 gear, etc. It could be a prenerf like with Salvaging. Or it could just be in-line with the way EVE is, something which EVE is -- rightly -- unapologetic for. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Konquera McCall Acme Import Export	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:10:00 - [183] Edited by: Konquera McCall on 20/06/2007 13:12:30 Originally by: Alex Tremayne And I'm saying that 'heat' is not and should not be new player content. I understand that many people here disagree, but to me it does come across as the sort of thing that only experienced pilots should be trying. I agree. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that was communicated effectively by CCP - somewhat the opposite in fact. And perhaps that's the cause of the disappointment. It's like opening a new toy at Christmas, finding out it requires batteries, and then finding out that your parents didn't buy batteries! I also agree with the posts that more or less stated that training EM to 5 will be more worthwhile than heat itself. You can't go wrong with EM 5. Though you should train your other basics to 4 before moving that one to 5. edited for quote correction.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:12:00 - [184] Originally by: Zeko Rena Edited by: Zeko Rena on 20/06/2007 13:06:01 Quote: It is the Vets who are jealous and resentful of the newer players in other words. Omg how did you know, im so jelous you will never have as much sp as me, my secret is out, im doomed now... fellow vets... please, support me, hug me, tell me its all going to be okay please! I dont know if i can go on.... now my secrets out... whats left for me... Seriously tho, why would vets be jelous, to be honest i dont care if charecters who havent been in EVE as long as me can use ships/equipment i cant, i just dont see why so many players want to try to skip the queue and get everything now rather then working for it, it will make it so much more gratifying when you get there. Oh by the way i have all the skills required but im not even going to bother learning this skill yet, lawl I don't consider having to train EM 4 as getting Heat "now" or immediately. Especially when you factor in that you train another skill right after. Even if a noob were to get Heat easily, why would you care? It isn't like he can do much with it. Do you think he is going to blow up your ship with his lvl 1 mission running Frigate because he has Heat? My point is everyone is saying how Heat is such a minor feature. Okay, if it is so minor....why the steep training requirement then?
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:14:00 - [185] Luckily I am Amarr and trained up these requirements from the moment I started playing. I can finally be happy that I'm Amarr and everyone whines!!!
Zeko Rena Caldari Tangent Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:16:00 - [186] Quote: My point is everyone is saying how Heat is such a minor feature. Okay, if it is so minor....why the steep training requirement then? My only guess can be that it might be rather expensive to repair your destroyed modules, although im not sure, i could see new players ending up going "i blew up all my modules with heat and cant afford to repair them" Thats the only reason i could think of for making it high, apart from that, prehaps CCP dont want everyone having heat right away, who knows. -------------------------- Har Har, sig is finnaly mod proof.
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:18:00 - [187] Edited by: La Tortura on 20/06/2007 13:20:49 Edited by: La Tortura on 20/06/2007 13:20:14 Edited by: La Tortura on 20/06/2007 13:19:45 Edited by: La Tortura on 20/06/2007 13:19:11 I agree, requirements are too harsh and out of way. Yes, a lot of things in eve takes time and have to take time to use. But "Heat" is not just another ship or shiny module. It is functionality, which is now locked from new players. Compare You can not pvp in recons right away, but you can pvp You can not create a large society like large alliance right away but you can create a society - corporation You can not build T2 shiny stuff right away but you can build cheap modules and T1 ships You can not shoot from T2 large guns with T2 large ammo, but you can shoot You can not anchor outposts right away, but you can anchor POS's You can not do lvl 4 missions, but you can do missions, lvl 1 tho. Almost all functionality of eve is open to new players from the beginning. The "Heat" is not, not in any way. And to those who thing that Energy Management is such a nesessary stuff I would say stfu. Minmatars don't need it, at least not in their first 25M sp, period. Now they do need of course, it is 2 weeks of training of useless skill. Thank you very much. -- ignorance is bliss
Zeko Rena Caldari Tangent Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:22:00 - [188] Quote: Compare You can not pvp in recons right away, but you can pvp You can not create a large society like large alliance right away but you can create a society - corporation You can not build T2 shiny stuff right away but you can build cheap modules and T1 ships You can not shoot from T2 large guns with T2 large ammo, but you can shoot You can not anchor outposts right away, but you can anchor POS's You can not do lvl 4 missions, but you can do missions, lvl 1 tho. Haha, this is funny, i especially like the outpost one, yes, i see lots of new players setting up POS's all the time. I like your signiture, its very fitting. -------------------------- Har Har, sig is finnaly mod proof.
Neaghan Grebs Aerial Boundaries Inc. Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:22:00 - [189] In my opinion the whole point of EVE is to strive to improve your character and make them as close to equal with the characters older than you as possible. This character is a few days from being a year old and I still don't have many of the "basic" skills. I don't expect the fight to be on a level playing field if I meet a 2004 player out in space. That's all part of the game, don't expect to beat these guys unless you've put some heavy time into areas pretty specially and can fly your ship really well. Heat is just another extension of this, something to aim for that will boost your characters abilities, it shouldn't be just given to everyone. Did you get T2 gear right away? (Ok I admit it is damn near possible now with new characters )
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:23:00 - [190] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 13:22:05 Originally by: Zeko Rena Quote: My point is everyone is saying how Heat is such a minor feature. Okay, if it is so minor....why the steep training requirement then? My only guess can be that it might be rather expensive to repair your destroyed modules, although im not sure, i could see new players ending up going "i blew up all my modules with heat and cant afford to repair them" Thats the only reason i could think of for making it high, apart from that, prehaps CCP dont want everyone having heat right away, who knows. That is a good point. However, I would think if a noob overheated his modules, the repair of Frig mods wouldn't be that high. That aside, it is no different than a noob wandering off in low sec in his frig and getting ganked. He loses the ship and has no isk to replace it. Should we shut off low sec to noobs too because they might get killed and lose money? Of course not. It is no different with Heat, they use it at their own risk.
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:23:00 - [191] Originally by: Zeko Rena Haha, this is funny, i especially like the outpost one, yes, i see lots of new players setting up POS's all the time. You're stupid or what? They _can_ do it, period. -- ignorance is bliss
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:24:00 - [192] Originally by: Cornucopian Edited by: Cornucopian on 20/06/2007 13:02:03 this thread is sooooo sad. this is EVE ffs! everything takes time! shaddap with the whining!!! to refine the point: I'm a NOOB! yes people, I'm not a vet or anything. been playing EVE for about 1.5 months. and the VERY first thing I thought when I looked at the skill tree was: omfgthisgameis COOOL!! I could be training myself for years to come..... I wont be even thinking of flying carrier for the first half year! oh my god this game rocks! I've been here a month and a half and I'm already dying of irritation from all the "please please please nerf/boost/change/make/give" posts. now, to make the most deadly comparison of all: to mean something in wow you need to be lvl70. then you can start competing. If we do things your way, OP, then you would have 30K titans on concurrently, fighting only for the factiongear (i.e. tier x raid set) so please. shaddap. quite eve, go away, play hello kitty online. die. leave. ] STFU you WoW reject, you come on here after 1 an a half months an tell me to leave/quit EvE, get to ****. It's not like im askin for a big thing either, you know the original Drake whiners, who got the Caldaris most powerful tanking ship (for it's size), nerfed, oh ye you might not know about that either.. It's not like im asking for MS's to not be immune to EW.. Then again you may have nto seen 1 of them either.. Im asking a simple request, to low the requirement from level 5 to level 4.... And from someone who says "shaddup", you little buttmunch... Go an grow some pubes
Zeko Rena Caldari Tangent Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:25:00 - [193] Quote: You're stupid or what? They _can_ do it, period. Yes its possible skill wise, but its no way possible isk wise, so what your basically saying is, lower the skill requirement so they can train up the skill to use heat, and have a happy warm feeling, but they will never be able to afford to use it anyway? -------------------------- Har Har, sig is finnaly mod proof.
Zeko Rena Caldari Tangent Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:27:00 - [194] Edited by: Zeko Rena on 20/06/2007 13:27:26 Quote: That aside, it is no different than a noob wandering off in low sec in his frig and getting ganked. He loses the ship and has no isk to replace it. Should we shut off low sec to noobs too because they might get killed and lose money? Of course not. It is no different with Heat, they use it at their own risk. This is true, but when you lose your only ship you get a free new one, if you blow up your modules from over heating you may not be able to get given free modules again, which i guess means you would have to go into low sec, get blown up and get a new ship, suppose its possible, if you got really stuck. -------------------------- Har Har, sig is finnaly mod proof.
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:31:00 - [195] Originally by: Zeko Rena Quote: You're stupid or what? They _can_ do it, period. Yes its possible skill wise, but its no way possible isk wise, so what your basically saying is, lower the skill requirement so they can train up the skill to use heat, and have a happy warm feeling, but they will never be able to afford to use it anyway? Lol? It is very possible isk wise to anchor a pos in the first month of playing, well, in 2 months at most, if the person really wants it, without gimping the experience in other areas of gameplay. What I want to say is that newer people shouldn't have prohibitive skill restrictions just to have a chance to test the basic functionality of the game. And yes, the Heat is a very basic functionality, it is on the splash place of the interface. -- ignorance is bliss
Melissa Ravenflame Caldari Zulu Squadron	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:33:00 - [196] I'm not really sure why new players would want to use Heat other than the 'Ooh its shiny and new and I want it'. After all, new players have enough to cope with in terms of learning how the game is played. If they don't know PvP very well then have a few cycles of extra oomph isn't going to help them. Rather, it's going to over complicate things and turn them off the game. By the time they get to the point where overloading their modules is actualy going to be of benefit then the skills requirements will not seem quite so severe as they will be a long way down the road already.
Big Al Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:35:00 - [197] Make it level 2 so that people will continue not training up this vital skill so they are easier to kill.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:35:00 - [198] Originally by: La Tortura What I want to say is that newer people shouldn't have prohibitive skill restrictions just to have a chance to test the basic functionality of the game. And yes, the Heat is a very basic functionality, it is on the splash place of the interface. How does one lead to the other? Just because CCP buggered up the UI again does not make heat 'basic functionality'. It just makes the UI buggered up. Again. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:37:00 - [199] Edited by: Amy Wang on 20/06/2007 13:38:10 Just reducing energy management requirement to 4 will make obtaining the skill too easy as eng. 5 is mandatory anyway and science 4 is not a big deal. How about energy systems operation 5 or maybe that and science 5? Or another 1-2 rank1 skills to 5, still better then a rank 3 to 5. Then again energy management 5 is a pretty useful skill to have so its not all that bad, certainly no comparison to survey 5 (once needed for salvaging) or logistics 5 (currently needed for triage module). The comparison with salvaging is moot anyway as that is supposed to be a profession for younger players where overheating is a more advanced thing to have imho.
Zeko Rena Caldari Tangent Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:37:00 - [200] Quote: Make it level 2 so that people will continue not training up this vital skill so they are easier to kill. Good point -------------------------- Har Har, sig is finnaly mod proof.
Razvedchitsa	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:38:00 - [201] next week special: Massive Whinage of lvl 5 Mission Runners Ganked by Pirates.
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:39:00 - [202] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: La Tortura What I want to say is that newer people shouldn't have prohibitive skill restrictions just to have a chance to test the basic functionality of the game. And yes, the Heat is a very basic functionality, it is on the splash place of the interface. How does one lead to the other? Just because CCP buggered up the UI again does not make heat 'basic functionality'. It just makes the UI buggered up. Again. Whatever, it can be used in any ship in the game, on almost any active module, regardless of player specialisation. This is def basic functionality. -- ignorance is bliss
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:39:00 - [203] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Mica Swanhaven Mica says... so you want Thermodynamics to be a rank 5 skill? will that make you happy? Rank 5 works for me. [/quote same :) lus is would make more sence I mean CCP tried to be nice but seeing the way things are going lets make it harder to train :D
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:41:00 - [204] Originally by: Melissa Ravenflame I'm not really sure why new players would want to use Heat other than the 'Ooh its shiny and new and I want it'. After all, new players have enough to cope with in terms of learning how the game is played. If they don't know PvP very well then have a few cycles of extra oomph isn't going to help them. Rather, it's going to over complicate things and turn them off the game. By the time they get to the point where overloading their modules is actualy going to be of benefit then the skills requirements will not seem quite so severe as they will be a long way down the road already. In spite of some of the things i said, I agree that it isn't a feature that noobs should have right off the bat or even a month or two into the game. I guess I would feel better about it if they put it on a rank 2 skill instead of a 3. As it is now, many intermediate players who have a decent grasp on the game {such as myself} don't have Energy Management 5 yet and I feel that at my lvl of experience and where I am in terms of skills in the game that I shouldn't be starting at a 2-3 week training period to get this thing. Especially since the player base is trying to convince everyone how minor a feature it is. For the time it takes to train for Heat, I can almost train to fly Hacs.
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:47:00 - [205] What I would do is making a specialisation in Thermodynamics. Basic Thermo should work as is, and should have a EM-4 or even EM-2 as prerequisite. Andvanced Thermo could have lvl 5 as prereq in both energy skills, have rank 8-12 and, for example, change graph of deterioration of module from linear to parabolic. eg, with Thermo Spec the first few cycles of overloading would do a little of damage, rest will do more and more. This is just for example. -- ignorance is bliss
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:49:00 - [206] Originally by: La Tortura Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: La Tortura What I want to say is that newer people shouldn't have prohibitive skill restrictions just to have a chance to test the basic functionality of the game. And yes, the Heat is a very basic functionality, it is on the splash place of the interface. How does one lead to the other? Just because CCP buggered up the UI again does not make heat 'basic functionality'. It just makes the UI buggered up. Again. Whatever, it can be used in any ship in the game, on almost any active module, regardless of player specialisation. This is def basic functionality. It's usable on any ship, sure. It's worth using on a very limited set of modules in an even more limited set of circumstances and stands a good chance of doing quite a lot of damage to your ship if you don't know what you're doing. It's a piece of niche funtionality that has been indiscriminately bolted onto the UI in a rather annoying way that you can't get rid of. New players should not be using it, they will only get themselves killed and/or lose themselves ISK. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
torswin Caldari Capital Productions Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:50:00 - [207] I dont really see the problem. Energy Management 5 is a VERY good skill to have anyway, 'cause everyone should have maxed cap skills imo... In combat that's the one that keeps you alive you know :) ---
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:53:00 - [208] Originally by: torswin I dont really see the problem. Energy Management 5 is a VERY good skill to have anyway, 'cause everyone should have maxed cap skills imo... In combat that's the one that keeps you alive you know :) stage whispers I've been telling them that, but they aren't listening. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Melissa Ravenflame Caldari Zulu Squadron	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:54:00 - [209] Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 13:45:07 ... Especially since the player base is trying to convince everyone how minor a feature it is... I think Heat is a minor feature for new players. When you have a very good grasp of PvP then it is anything but a minor feature. I think considering Heat is a step along the path to T3 mods then having a level 3 skill to 5 isn't asking too much. Look at the requirements for T2 guns and in comparison it's actualy a pretty low set of skills to get on the first rung of T3.
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:54:00 - [210] Edited by: La Tortura on 20/06/2007 13:54:00 Originally by: Alex Tremayne It's usable on any ship, sure. It's worth using on a very limited set of modules in an even more limited set of circumstances and stands a good chance of doing quite a lot of damage to your ship if you don't know what you're doing. It's a piece of niche funtionality that has been indiscriminately bolted onto the UI in a rather annoying way that you can't get rid of. New players should not be using it, they will only get themselves killed and/or lose themselves ISK. Well, of course, it is not that useful, as manufacturing of rockets isn't very useful and pvping in an ibis isn't that useful too. Of course it is more useful on a MWD of a vaga caught in a bubble camp than on a 150mm AC of a newbee pve rifter. But new players should be able to at least try it, as they see that feature every minute they playing the game. Moreover, in some cases it could be useful even for a fairly new players, like, for example, overloading a webber on a tackling fregate. -- ignorance is bliss
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:54:00 - [211] Originally by: Zeko Rena Quote: Make it level 2 so that people will continue not training up this vital skill so they are easier to kill. Good point Normally I hate statements like this (lame factor) but this actually summarizes another contention I have with the skill tree operating like this: it removes a decision. Eventually, EM 5 is good to get because it's incredibly useful (proportional though, to how much cap the ship you're flying has absolute - so, better for BS's/capitals). Whether you want that advantage is a decision that should be in the void - because it serves as an important decision on how best to skill train. Tying a feature which may or may not be useful to it removes this - because there's no question about training it, everyone will - somewhat like learning skills. Now, I think Heat is pretty useless the higher your SP gets because it's entirely chance based. However, let people make that decision. Don't guide them straight into it.
Sapphrine The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:04:00 - [212] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: torswin I dont really see the problem. Energy Management 5 is a VERY good skill to have anyway, 'cause everyone should have maxed cap skills imo... In combat that's the one that keeps you alive you know :) stage whispers I've been telling them that, but they aren't listening. Posting that there are good reasons for it to be a high req skill doesn't seem to wash on this thread. If you're experienced then they label you a vet and you're just trying to fck over the n00bs. If you're inexperienced then who cares what you think?! Clearly only the OP and those supporting him have a point. Yes I tried a constructive post first but they ignored that so I think i'll just add basic weight to saying, no, leave the skill req as it is. Don't fold to whining CCP.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:16:00 - [213] Originally by: La Tortura What I would do is making a specialisation in Thermodynamics. Basic Thermo should work as is, and should have a EM-4 or even EM-2 as prerequisite. Andvanced Thermo could have lvl 5 as prereq in both energy skills, have rank 8-12 and, for example, change graph of deterioration of module from linear to parabolic. eg, with Thermo Spec the first few cycles of overloading would do a little of damage, rest will do more and more. This is just for example. yup ANYTHING to ake new players not just stare at there UI confused there can be advanced uses for heat, like making guns take EM5 but shield could take EM4 and after burners Em4 I don't understand it's set up like something to sepicalise in, so maybe you'll release more for heat? if not that would be like only one feature in eve using cap and the rest of pkayers stare that thier caps in te middle of the UI going... what? oh and eris " CCP Eris Discordia Posted - 2007.06.20 14:05:00 - [12] - Quote We actually appreciate all sorts of feedback as long as it is constructive, if people can explain why they dislike a certain feature it tells us something and we can take into account Smile" so you better be reading these
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:24:00 - [214] Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: torswin I dont really see the problem. Energy Management 5 is a VERY good skill to have anyway, 'cause everyone should have maxed cap skills imo... In combat that's the one that keeps you alive you know :) stage whispers I've been telling them that, but they aren't listening. Posting that there are good reasons for it to be a high req skill doesn't seem to wash on this thread. If you're experienced then they label you a vet and you're just trying to fck over the n00bs. If you're inexperienced then who cares what you think?! Clearly only the OP and those supporting him have a point. Yes I tried a constructive post first but they ignored that so I think i'll just add basic weight to saying, no, leave the skill req as it is. Don't fold to whining CCP. I too have tried to be constructive, but it's not got me anywhere. To be honest I wish CCP never wasted their time on heat and instead spent it giving us the decent, configurable UI that EVE has been lacking for some time. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Sun Liping	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:35:00 - [215] Edited by: Sun Liping on 20/06/2007 14:37:40 Even if HEAT is nothing for me, i would prefer: - basic HEAT usage available for everyone, without any skill reqs (so the UI change has at least a reason to exist). Thus HEAT would be more in the original sense that it is a last resort for beginners - specialization skills with the current reqs to decrease HEAT damage (thermodynamics) - A Skill set which improves the benefits of overloading your modules. Those skills could be made up similar to the rigging skills, for each different kind another skill, since managing to improve the overload of an afterburner is something quite different than overloading a railgun. - later on Tech 3 modules, with benefits in regard to HEAT managing, also with high skill reqs, for example with its relevant skill from that skill set i mentioned above.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:35:00 - [216] Originally by: MotherMoon oh and eris Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Posted - 2007.06.20 14:05:00 We actually appreciate all sorts of feedback as long as it is constructive, if people can explain why they dislike a certain feature it tells us something and we can take into account Smile" so you better be reading these I certainly hope so. I hope CCP takes notice of those of us supporting them against the whiners in desiring that some things not be n00b-friendly, and that more importantly that they please, for the love of God, overhaul the damned UI. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:45:00 - [217] About EM 5 being a must: no, it's not. I fly Amarr ships with MWD fitted, and with a cap booster, I never found myself in a situation where having that bit more cap would've saved me; it's always been either I'm completely sucked dry by nos/running out of cap charges, or I still have plenty of cap but my tank couldn't keep up, or I had plenty of cap and cold hold the tank. Saying that EM 5 is a priority for noobs is sillyness incarnate, considering you should have all the tanking skills to 4 (5 for those needed for T2 tank), all gunnery/missile support to 4-5 and preferably racial speciality to 4 as well, all nav skills to 4-5, your spaceship command skills to 4-5, your other engineering skills to 4-5, electronics to 4-5, your drone skills to 4-5 and your learnings to 4-5 before ever considering going for that itty bitty extra cap. About Heat being a specialised thing not for noobs: as pointed out, the fact that it's implanted on everyone's UI says otherwise. That is however a fairly minor point compared to the fact that everyone WILL use it. Are you seriously going to tell me you aren't going to overload you MWD to get away when you fall in a bubble camp? About whining: although proper whinning is indeed annoying, bringing up imbalances for discussion isn't whinning. If nobody did, we'd still be flying old-school gankageddons, nanophoons and torp kestrels. I know I wouldn't stick around for that ****e. Like I said, I got screwed with Salvaging; I'm not getting screwed again. I'm sure CCP will lower the EM requirement soon, as right now, it's pretty stupidly high a req for something that everyone needs really, from the noob to the vet. BTW, I have 15M SPs, so it's not like I just started playing this game.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:52:00 - [218] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus About Heat being a specialised thing not for noobs: as pointed out, the fact that it's implanted on everyone's UI says otherwise. As I've pointed out, it means nothing of the sort. It just means that CCP have buggered up the UI with non configurable stuff taking up more space. Again. Originally by: Deschenus Maximus That is however a fairly minor point compared to the fact that everyone WILL use it. Are you seriously going to tell me you aren't going to overload you MWD to get away when you fall in a bubble camp? I beg to differ. It's a gimmick that CCP wasted valuble time and resources on that is going to get many people to kill themselves by accident. Until it becomes more than that, I won't even be training it, let alone using it. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:53:00 - [219] Originally by: Alex Tremayne I won't even be training it, let alone using it. I would love to bet on that
Indiria Fuentes Terra Rosa Militia	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:02:00 - [220] The op and people thinking like that are simply anoying! I¦m a younger player (playing since end of jan 07) but have already trained the prereqs for heat as cap-skills are almost mandatory imho (at least as Gallente, should be even more as Amarr i would suppose). Why can¦t people simply accept the concept of the game? Why do they start to whine to make things easier, quicker, blahhh, blahhh... the whine-level in the last weeks is annoying and disgusting! I hope CCP does not respond to all this whinage and keeps things as they are. Don¦t fix what¦s not broken! regards Indiria
Valrandir Gallente Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:04:00 - [221] no Energy Management is a basic skill and any respectable pilots should have it trained to V. -------------------------------- This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:06:00 - [222] Originally by: Alex Tremayne I beg to differ. It's a gimmick that CCP wasted valuble time and resources on that is going to get many people to kill themselves by accident. I don't agree with the underligned, but I do agree with the bolded part. I wish CCP would have spent their time on something else. Originally by: Alex Tremayne Until it becomes more than that, I won't even be training it, let alone using it.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:07:00 - [223] Originally by: Indiria Fuentes The op and people thinking like that are simply anoying! I¦m a younger player (playing since end of jan 07) but have already trained the prereqs for heat as cap-skills are almost mandatory imho (at least as Gallente, should be even more as Amarr i would suppose). Why can¦t people simply accept the concept of the game? Why do they start to whine to make things easier, quicker, blahhh, blahhh... the whine-level in the last weeks is annoying and disgusting! I hope CCP does not respond to all this whinage and keeps things as they are. Don¦t fix what¦s not broken! regards Indiria Yeah it is annoying when people don't think like you isn't it? It is a harsh world in which we live in. Suck it up buttercup.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:08:00 - [224] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: MotherMoon oh and eris Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Posted - 2007.06.20 14:05:00 We actually appreciate all sorts of feedback as long as it is constructive, if people can explain why they dislike a certain feature it tells us something and we can take into account Smile" so you better be reading these I certainly hope so. I hope CCP takes notice of those of us supporting them against the whiners in desiring that some things not be n00b-friendly, and that more importantly that they please, for the love of God, overhaul the damned UI. that'll al I'm saying make the UI useful it's nor fair to sticks thing on that new players can't use I'm not saying let noobs use heat I'm sayig why is it part of the UI
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:09:00 - [225] Originally by: Indiria Fuentes The op and people thinking like that are simply anoying! I¦m a younger player (playing since end of jan 07) but have already trained the prereqs for heat as cap-skills are almost mandatory imho (at least as Gallente, should be even more as Amarr i would suppose). Why can¦t people simply accept the concept of the game? Why do they start to whine to make things easier, quicker, blahhh, blahhh... the whine-level in the last weeks is annoying and disgusting! I hope CCP does not respond to all this whinage and keeps things as they are. Don¦t fix what¦s not broken! regards Indiria Where did I say it was broken??? NO WHERE.... Gallente don't need cap skills mandatory, ye i admit Amarr need them, but 4 in each of the cap skills is prefect, an onyl to 5 once you have the time to invest... Gallente are drones carriers/NOS Gods/Balster boats... Seriously gallente pwn no matter what they do.. I aint saying it's broken, Im saying its rather crazy what you need to train for them, yes its only a matter of 16 days training + the 4 for engineering, but its way to steep imo. And as someone posted the quote from a CPP employee, they would rather us send feedback so they can look into it ect, if you don't lie the whinage don't reply, or even simple is says (FIRST WHINE) int he thread title, you chsoe to come into a whine thread, you got yourself involved, I don't like people like you. Everyone has thier right to an opinion, you ahve stated yours, I state mine, so has many others in this thread... Until we don't get the option to express our opinions, then it changes, but until then, put up or shut up.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:09:00 - [226] also at my learning skills it's not a 15 day time sink only 12 days :)
Sapphrine The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:10:00 - [227] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Indiria Fuentes The op and people thinking like that are simply anoying! I¦m a younger player (playing since end of jan 07) but have already trained the prereqs for heat as cap-skills are almost mandatory imho (at least as Gallente, should be even more as Amarr i would suppose). Why can¦t people simply accept the concept of the game? Why do they start to whine to make things easier, quicker, blahhh, blahhh... the whine-level in the last weeks is annoying and disgusting! I hope CCP does not respond to all this whinage and keeps things as they are. Don¦t fix what¦s not broken! regards Indiria Yeah it is annoying when people don't think like you isn't it? It is a harsh world in which we live in. Suck it up buttercup. glad to see when people disagree with you and your 'reasonable' point you hold your head up high and stick to your guns instead of degenerating this into a slagging match. I had more respect for you earlier on when you almost seemed constructive. Now you're clearly just a whiner annoyed that people wont follow your nerf request. Just set the skill training if you care about it.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:12:00 - [228] Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Indiria Fuentes The op and people thinking like that are simply anoying! I¦m a younger player (playing since end of jan 07) but have already trained the prereqs for heat as cap-skills are almost mandatory imho (at least as Gallente, should be even more as Amarr i would suppose). Why can¦t people simply accept the concept of the game? Why do they start to whine to make things easier, quicker, blahhh, blahhh... the whine-level in the last weeks is annoying and disgusting! I hope CCP does not respond to all this whinage and keeps things as they are. Don¦t fix what¦s not broken! regards Indiria Yeah it is annoying when people don't think like you isn't it? It is a harsh world in which we live in. Suck it up buttercup. glad to see when people disagree with you and your 'reasonable' point you hold your head up high and stick to your guns instead of degenerating this into a slagging match. I had more respect for you earlier on when you almost seemed constructive. Now you're clearly just a whiner annoyed that people wont follow your nerf request. Just set the skill training if you care about it. People don't, but you might be surprised to learn they do care about the game. In every capacity, heat has failed to deliver anything. And it's hardly him whining - you might notice how the post above it is nothing but "my poorly planned skill training back bone!"
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:13:00 - [229] Energy Management, as I keep saying, but nooo everyone thinks you should use that extra time training just for the extra 5% cap that a cap recharger/power relay can do, but your saying any respectable pilot should have energy managment 5 is rather crazy. Any respectable pilot should be carrying a Capacitor Booster. Simple as that, you don't need that extra 5% cap/4% recharge.... Either change the skill requirement, or change the actual skill needed to train TD...
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:15:00 - [230] Depending what you're doing you just don't need energy management. Dare I say a sniper battleship is somewhat unlikely to run out of cap before it's either destroyed or its target dies etc. etc.
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:16:00 - [231] Keep the prerequsites as they are. Heat is the path to Tech III so shouldn't be noob friendly. Btw, I'm training energy management lvl 5 myself right now. We're sorry, something happened.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:17:00 - [232] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 15:17:54 Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Indiria Fuentes The op and people thinking like that are simply anoying! I¦m a younger player (playing since end of jan 07) but have already trained the prereqs for heat as cap-skills are almost mandatory imho (at least as Gallente, should be even more as Amarr i would suppose). Why can¦t people simply accept the concept of the game? Why do they start to whine to make things easier, quicker, blahhh, blahhh... the whine-level in the last weeks is annoying and disgusting! I hope CCP does not respond to all this whinage and keeps things as they are. Don¦t fix what¦s not broken! regards Indiria Yeah it is annoying when people don't think like you isn't it? It is a harsh world in which we live in. Suck it up buttercup. glad to see when people disagree with you and your 'reasonable' point you hold your head up high and stick to your guns instead of degenerating this into a slagging match. I had more respect for you earlier on when you almost seemed constructive. Now you're clearly just a whiner annoyed that people wont follow your nerf request. Just set the skill training if you care about it. Are you talking to me? I am no worse than these people who come in here and throw the blanket label of "whining" on this entire thread no matter how many good points people bring up. I don't feel posters like that deserve any respect and I ridicule them. Sorry if that annoys you but......shrug. I am not trying to get people to "follow me." What the heck are you talking about? Really, I said my peace about this subject and I could care less how many agree. Either CCP will change it or they will not. I am hoping they will reconsider though.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:22:00 - [233] Originally by: Na'Kunni Energy Management, as I keep saying, but nooo everyone thinks you should use that extra time training just for the extra 5% cap that a cap recharger/power relay can do, but your saying any respectable pilot should have energy managment 5 is rather crazy. Any respectable pilot should be carrying a Capacitor Booster. Simple as that, you don't need that extra 5% cap/4% recharge.... Either change the skill requirement, or change the actual skill needed to train TD... For PvP? Sure, a cap booster is nigh on essential sadly, though I do wish CCP would nerf cap boosters hand-in-hand with nerfing Nos. For PvE though, where a sustainable tank is desired and carrying cap charges is just plain inconvenient, then EM V is just too damn useful. Even in PvP, having a bigger cap pool means that maybe you don't need to use as many of your limited number of 800 charges in a particular fight, meaning you can have one more engagement before having to restock. It's all useful. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Gladia Horusthu Gallente Ordo Pondera	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:25:00 - [234] How about we keep the skill requirements where they are at? I recycled my vet character, so I don't have those skills yet. But I can promise you that every one of those skills is WORTH IT just for its own sake. Energy Management 5 for 5% more cap than level 4? Cmon, in battle cap = life. If you are anticipating using the heat feature, you should be making a beeline for this anyway. Science 4? Infomorph Psychology. You pewpew, you should want this skill too for rapid deployment. Engineering 5? A must to fit the best you can on your ship. Not one of those skills is "wasted." There are a lot of other skills with prereqs that make me mad as hell at having to train them, but these make sense, in my opinion. S
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:27:00 - [235] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Na'Kunni Energy Management, as I keep saying, but nooo everyone thinks you should use that extra time training just for the extra 5% cap that a cap recharger/power relay can do, but your saying any respectable pilot should have energy managment 5 is rather crazy. Any respectable pilot should be carrying a Capacitor Booster. Simple as that, you don't need that extra 5% cap/4% recharge.... Either change the skill requirement, or change the actual skill needed to train TD... For PvP? Sure, a cap booster is nigh on essential sadly, though I do wish CCP would nerf cap boosters hand-in-hand with nerfing Nos. For PvE though, where a sustainable tank is desired and carrying cap charges is just plain inconvenient, then EM V is just too damn useful. Even in PvP, having a bigger cap pool means that maybe you don't need to use as many of your limited number of 800 charges in a particular fight, meaning you can have one more engagement before having to restock. It's all useful. No it isn't. Take my Dominix for example - even with all cap skills to 5 there's no way I'm getting two LAR 2's to perma-run on that. Far easier to fit 3x CCC rigs and be cap-stable. So why would I train EM5, if I can already do what I need with EM 4 and spend roughly the same amount of time training something more useful like DI 5 to speed up my ratting? And at any rate - no one is going to use heat for PvE.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:31:00 - [236] Originally by: James Duar And at any rate - no one is going to use heat for PvE. Why not? It's not like nobody's ever had a "do or die" situation happen while ratting or mission running. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:34:00 - [237] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: James Duar And at any rate - no one is going to use heat for PvE. Why not? It's not like nobody's ever had a "do or die" situation happen while ratting or mission running. That's true, but I think it's safe to say that Heat is far more a PvP thing than a PvE one.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:34:00 - [238] Originally by: James Duar And at any rate - no one is going to use heat for PvE. No kidding? I'd never have worked that out if you hadn't told me. Some of us PvPers do however do PvE to make cash to buy our shiny ships and mods for PvP. PvP and PvE are not mutually exclusive. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:36:00 - [239] Originally by: Gladia Horusthu How about we keep the skill requirements where they are at? I recycled my vet character, so I don't have those skills yet. But I can promise you that every one of those skills is WORTH IT just for its own sake. Energy Management 5 for 5% more cap than level 4? Cmon, in battle cap = life. If you are anticipating using the heat feature, you should be making a beeline for this anyway. Science 4? Infomorph Psychology. You pewpew, you should want this skill too for rapid deployment. Engineering 5? A must to fit the best you can on your ship. Not one of those skills is "wasted." There are a lot of other skills with prereqs that make me mad as hell at having to train them, but these make sense, in my opinion. S In battle cap means life, where do cap boosters come into the equastion, $%!"ú to everyone saying energy management 5 is a required skill, it isnt, it does fine at lvl 4. I wish peopel would actually read the thread before posting
Zhett Haukes Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:37:00 - [240] Just wanted to say that I am perfectly happy having to train energy management to V before getting heat. It doesn't bother me in the slightest and I am a 2007 player.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:38:00 - [241] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 15:37:31 Originally by: Gladia Horusthu How about we keep the skill requirements where they are at? I recycled my vet character, so I don't have those skills yet. But I can promise you that every one of those skills is WORTH IT just for its own sake. Energy Management 5 for 5% more cap than level 4? Cmon, in battle cap = life. If you are anticipating using the heat feature, you should be making a beeline for this anyway. Science 4? Infomorph Psychology. You pewpew, you should want this skill too for rapid deployment. Engineering 5? A must to fit the best you can on your ship. Not one of those skills is "wasted." There are a lot of other skills with prereqs that make me mad as hell at having to train them, but these make sense, in my opinion. S Why is everyone assuming that every pilot in this game PvP's? Sure in PvP, cap = life but in PvE, there are mods which supply extra cap such as Cap Rechargers for us Abaddon Pilots not to mention CCC rigs. What i am pointing out is if I did no PvP and just ran missions, Energy Management 5 would be very low on the totem pole of things for me to train because while cap is still important in a mission, 5% for 3 weeks worth of training isn't something I would jump on quickly. Furthermore, PvE players would like to use Heat too but are stuck training a skill which isn't quite as important to them as it is to a PvPer. And yeah I know running missions or ratting all day isn't what EvE is about and is basically looked down upon but that is irrelevant when a good percentage of the player base does play that way regardless and they are paying CCP a subscription. Ask CCP if they matter or not.
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:38:00 - [242] Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Gladia Horusthu How about we keep the skill requirements where they are at? I recycled my vet character, so I don't have those skills yet. But I can promise you that every one of those skills is WORTH IT just for its own sake. Energy Management 5 for 5% more cap than level 4? Cmon, in battle cap = life. If you are anticipating using the heat feature, you should be making a beeline for this anyway. Science 4? Infomorph Psychology. You pewpew, you should want this skill too for rapid deployment. Engineering 5? A must to fit the best you can on your ship. Not one of those skills is "wasted." There are a lot of other skills with prereqs that make me mad as hell at having to train them, but these make sense, in my opinion. S In battle cap means life, where do cap boosters come into the equastion, $%!"ú to everyone saying energy management 5 is a required skill, it isnt, it does fine at lvl 4. I wish peopel would actually read the thread before posting And I wish you'd accept that quite a few of us disagree with you and your opinions. Stating that 'cap boosters mean you don't need EM 5' over and over again is not going to actually make us believe you when we've all generally found that not to be the case. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Tenebrion Darkness	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:39:00 - [243] You're right, EM 4 is acceptable for many peoples builds, however EM 5 is now a req for a diff skill, so get training.
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:40:00 - [244] Quote: And I wish you'd accept that quite a few of us disagree with you and your opinions. Stating that 'cap boosters mean you don't need EM 5' over and over again is not going to actually make us believe you when we've all generally found that not to be the case. Show us your killboard -- ignorance is bliss
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:41:00 - [245] Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: James Duar And at any rate - no one is going to use heat for PvE. No kidding? I'd never have worked that out if you hadn't told me. Some of us PvPers do however do PvE to make cash to buy our shiny ships and mods for PvP. PvP and PvE are not mutually exclusive. And you might notice that part where I pointed out that your statement that you "need" EM5 for that is incorrect to.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:43:00 - [246] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 15:42:54 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: James Duar And at any rate - no one is going to use heat for PvE. Why not? It's not like nobody's ever had a "do or die" situation happen while ratting or mission running. That's true, but I think it's safe to say that Heat is far more a PvP thing than a PvE one. I would use Heat in PvE if it helped me get out of one of the numerous cluster ****s I get myself into on lvl 4's . I don't see it as a PvP only feature at all.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:45:00 - [247] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: James Duar And at any rate - no one is going to use heat for PvE. Why not? It's not like nobody's ever had a "do or die" situation happen while ratting or mission running. That's true, but I think it's safe to say that Heat is far more a PvP thing than a PvE one. I would use Heat in PvE if it helped me get out of one of the numerous cluster ****s I get myself into on lvl4'w . I don't see it as a PvP only feature at all. PvE is very much about sustainability, which is pretty much the antithesis of heat. Couple that to the chance based mechanic, and you'd be doing pretty poorly to depend on it in any way for PvE. Or more accurately - if you're tank is not holding, using Heat will probably just get you killed faster when your reppers blow up.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:46:00 - [248] Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 15:42:54 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: James Duar And at any rate - no one is going to use heat for PvE. Why not? It's not like nobody's ever had a "do or die" situation happen while ratting or mission running. That's true, but I think it's safe to say that Heat is far more a PvP thing than a PvE one. I would use Heat in PvE if it helped me get out of one of the numerous cluster ****s I get myself into on lvl 4's . I don't see it as a PvP only feature at all. Notice that I said "more" not "only". In general, you'll get in tight situations in PvE WAY less than in PvP, so heat will be more usefull for PvP.
The Judge FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:47:00 - [249] Simple arguement is that we needed to train that skill, so why should new players not have to train it as well ? If you didn't start the game 4 years ago as well, then guess who's fault that is ... Besides you're arguing over a skill that is actually quite useful and only takes a few weeks to train, i want to train carrier 5 and it takes nearly 2 months and you don't see me whining about it.
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:49:00 - [250] Originally by: La Tortura Quote: And I wish you'd accept that quite a few of us disagree with you and your opinions. Stating that 'cap boosters mean you don't need EM 5' over and over again is not going to actually make us believe you when we've all generally found that not to be the case. Show us your killboard
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:51:00 - [251] Originally by: The Judge Simple arguement is that we needed to train that skill, so why should new players not have to train it as well ? If you didn't start the game 4 years ago as well, then guess who's fault that is ... Besides you're arguing over a skill that is actually quite useful and only takes a few weeks to train, i want to train carrier 5 and it takes nearly 2 months and you don't see me whining about it. I see a ship costing 20 billion ISK, requiring POS's to build and generally the backing of an alliance able to defend the space its in for long enough to do that. Do you think that perhaps, just maybe, there's a vast difference between the benefits conferred by a mothership proportionally, and the benefits heat is going to confer?
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:53:00 - [252] Edited by: Deschenus Maximus on 20/06/2007 15:52:23 Originally by: The Judge Simple arguement is that we needed to train that skill, so why should new players not have to train it as well ? If you didn't start the game 4 years ago as well, then guess who's fault that is ... Besides you're arguing over a skill that is actually quite useful and only takes a few weeks to train, i want to train carrier 5 and it takes nearly 2 months and you don't see me whining about it. There's a difference between that and the prereqs for Heat, tbh. I'm a CBC pilot, and I have no problem with the fact that it takes forever to train for one, as it is a highly specialised path to take. On the other hand, Heat is something everyone needs, not just a very specialised branch of peeps (like Command Ship pilots... and Carrier pilots )
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:55:00 - [253] Originally by: James Duar Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: James Duar And at any rate - no one is going to use heat for PvE. Why not? It's not like nobody's ever had a "do or die" situation happen while ratting or mission running. That's true, but I think it's safe to say that Heat is far more a PvP thing than a PvE one. I would use Heat in PvE if it helped me get out of one of the numerous cluster ****s I get myself into on lvl4'w . I don't see it as a PvP only feature at all. PvE is very much about sustainability, which is pretty much the antithesis of heat. Couple that to the chance based mechanic, and you'd be doing pretty poorly to depend on it in any way for PvE. Or more accurately - if you're tank is not holding, using Heat will probably just get you killed faster when your reppers blow up. If I were only in this game to mission run {I am not...just saying} I wouldn't depend on Heat anymore than a PvP pilot would but it would be a tool that is there and available to me for use. Everyone is trying to paint this picture where Heat is only going to be used as a last ditch effort in PvP to take someone down with you but that is bull. There is going to be quite a few uses for it.
Tenebrion Darkness	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:57:00 - [254] Edited by: Tenebrion Darkness on 20/06/2007 16:04:02 Than as such it should be something you have to train for. If people dont feel like EM 5 is needed than I don't see why they feel they should get heat either. edit: for clarity
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:59:00 - [255] Originally by: Tenebrion Darkness Than as such it should be something you have to train for. If people dont feel like EM 5 is needed than I don't see why they feel they need heat either. Uh...they are two different things? What does not caring about 5% more Cap have to do with wanting to overheat modules?
emepror Gallente Flying Spaghetti Monsterz FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:07:00 - [256] dont change the requirments at all!!! yes noobs may have a bit of a harder time gfetting it but dont you think they should be working on support skills for the modules not skills that can kill those mods, and if you were like me 2 years ago i had a hard enough time buying new ships
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:10:00 - [257] Originally by: emepror dont change the requirments at all!!! yes noobs may have a bit of a harder time gfetting it but dont you think they should be working on support skills for the modules not skills that can kill those mods, and if you were like me 2 years ago i had a hard enough time buying new ships I'm not a noob, and I neither have EM 5 nor plan to train it in the immediate future.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:15:00 - [258] Originally by: emepror dont change the requirments at all!!! yes noobs may have a bit of a harder time gfetting it but dont you think they should be working on support skills for the modules not skills that can kill those mods, and if you were like me 2 years ago i had a hard enough time buying new ships No offense but what buying a ship was like two years ago is irrelevant. Games evolve and usually get easier in time. I respect what Vets had to go through in "the good ole days" until they start using it in a debate like it matters.
justcheckingthemarket	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:20:00 - [259] oh come on guys stop this annoying whine, i really HOPE ccp is going to ignore this large amount of stupidity!!
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:20:00 - [260] Originally by: Hasak Rain I respect what Vets had to go through in "the good ole days" until they start using it in a debate like it matters. Then by extension neither does the opinion of new players, since in time that opinion is rendered irrelevant. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:22:00 - [261] Originally by: justcheckingthemarket oh come on guys stop this annoying whine, i really HOPE ccp is going to ignore this large amount of stupidity!! They won't ignore it. Did you read in the other thread where they posted that they don't consider it whining and look at it from both sides and welcome feedback? No guess you didn't.
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:22:00 - [262] Originally by: justcheckingthemarket oh come on guys stop this annoying whine, i really HOPE ccp is going to ignore this large amount of stupidity!! Before you make a comment, please post with you main like many others, an stop hiding behind an alt...
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:25:00 - [263] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain I respect what Vets had to go through in "the good ole days" until they start using it in a debate like it matters. Then by extension neither does the opinion of new players, since in time that opinion is rendered irrelevant. How so? It is the new players who don't have the skill trained and face the long training path to get Heat. I think their opinion holds a lot of weight. I never said Vet's opinions do not matter. I said bringing up "the good ole days" is a nice bedtime story but really has nothing to do with the topic.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:28:00 - [264] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain I respect what Vets had to go through in "the good ole days" until they start using it in a debate like it matters. Then by extension neither does the opinion of new players, since in time that opinion is rendered irrelevant. How so? It is the new players who don't have the skill trained and face the long training path to get Heat. I think their opinion holds a lot of weight. I never said Vet's opinions do not matter. I said bringing up "the good ole days" is a nice bedtime story but really has nothing to do with the topic. I concur. If things are different today, it's because CCP felt that something wasn't right. So bringing back "the good old days" as an argument is pretty flawed in itself.
Habraka Eve Defence Force Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:28:00 - [265] I like the current skill requirements, but that's cause I have already trained them and a lot of people haven't.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:29:00 - [266] Originally by: Melissa Ravenflame Originally by: Mashie Saldana Keep the prerequsites as they are. Heat is the path to Tech III so shouldn't be noob friendly. Btw, I'm training energy management lvl 5 myself right now. Amen. As stated before, heat is the second step towards T3. The first step is getting your skills high enough to use heat. We hear the occasional whine about how hard the skill reqs are for T2 with the need for skills at level 5. Thankfully they get ignored by CCP as T2 is something special and should take a lot of time to achieve. T3 should be certainly be no easier than T2 to achieve. Really? I honestly did not know this. Somebody should have brought this up 9 pages ago.
Tenebrion Darkness	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:31:00 - [267] I do not wish to see EvE get "easier" over time. That is to say everything is handed to the player without any effort, of course those who put in the time will find things easier as time goes by.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:31:00 - [268] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Melissa Ravenflame Originally by: Mashie Saldana Keep the prerequsites as they are. Heat is the path to Tech III so shouldn't be noob friendly. Btw, I'm training energy management lvl 5 myself right now. Amen. As stated before, heat is the second step towards T3. The first step is getting your skills high enough to use heat. We hear the occasional whine about how hard the skill reqs are for T2 with the need for skills at level 5. Thankfully they get ignored by CCP as T2 is something special and should take a lot of time to achieve. T3 should be certainly be no easier than T2 to achieve. Really? I honestly did not know this. Somebody should have brought this up 9 pages ago. The Devs mentioned that MAYBE, heat and T3 will be intertwined. So jumping the waggon and saying IT WILL be tied to T3 is silly.
SasRipper DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:31:00 - [269] NO NO NO NO NO NO WE arent going to go through the bleeden slavging thing again ccp better not give into the whining noobs this time snip Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:32:00 - [270] Originally by: SasRipper NO NO NO NO NO NO WE arent going to go through the bleeden slavging thing again ccp better not give into the whining noobs this time Did you not learn your lesson last time?
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:33:00 - [271] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Melissa Ravenflame Originally by: Mashie Saldana Keep the prerequsites as they are. Heat is the path to Tech III so shouldn't be noob friendly. Btw, I'm training energy management lvl 5 myself right now. Amen. As stated before, heat is the second step towards T3. The first step is getting your skills high enough to use heat. We hear the occasional whine about how hard the skill reqs are for T2 with the need for skills at level 5. Thankfully they get ignored by CCP as T2 is something special and should take a lot of time to achieve. T3 should be certainly be no easier than T2 to achieve. Really? I honestly did not know this. Somebody should have brought this up 9 pages ago. The Devs mentioned that MAYBE, heat and T3 will be intertwined. So jumping the waggon and saying IT WILL be tied to T3 is silly. Okay because it is the first i heard of it. Still, only God and CCP knows how far down the road T3 is so I agree that is jumping the gun a bit.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:33:00 - [272] Originally by: Hasak Rain I never said Vet's opinions do not matter. I said bringing up "the good ole days" is a nice bedtime story but really has nothing to do with the topic. It seemed to me that the post you were replying to earlier had a very valid point to make on skill training focus. That's very relevant to the topic, especially when directed towards newer players. His post could have been worded in a nicer fashion, but the point he was trying to make is still entirely vaild. warp drive active \| nature vraie
qantua gnartians Gallente Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:35:00 - [273] Originally by: Alex Tremayne I certainly hope so. I hope CCP takes notice of those of us supporting them against the whiners in desiring that some things not be n00b-friendly, and that more importantly that they please, for the love of God, overhaul the damned UI. Ohh cut that dusty old argument like your really here just to defend CCP/Eve from the evil of whiners that make sense. Your trying to pull a strawman argument here, derailing the whole debate. and now we have 5 spam threads on the front page doing the same(some locked fortunately) Start actually explaining wry you think that is the coolest thing on earth to have heat as a non basic feature. Eve have never been designed blindly but more or less by trial and error with things hitting the production server, more or less undone and unbalanced, thats just how CCP does things. CCP obviusly whant heat as a masive part of the game, it's he only part of rev II aimed at non cap pilot, but that dont mean theyve finalised or internally agree on how it should be, that wry well argumented whines work. Now heres wry i dont think Heat needs to be a part of a certain specialisation path. 1. Heat going to affect every module propotional to the isk/SP the player have invested, ie it wont actually change the noob/vet balance in a dogfight. 2 heat is absolutely a gameplay changing feature, it just add a layer to any dogfight. wry on earth would anyone change of the mecanics dogfigts, and then nerf the noobs from that change. So what i want an answer to is this. Wry must heat not be noob frindly? Im just seing plain statement that you think it's silly to want it changed and not that many considerations, im still kind of curius to what reasons people have for wanting to treat heat not as a basic feature but as a specialiasation. The biggest flaw with heat as it is right now is that heat is a fixed boost and only drawbacks are ajustable, wry not make both ajustable with the drawback ajustment recruireing the boost skill at lvl 5? I hereby represents myself and noone but myself, please dont make my corp or aliance responsible for my foolis
Shidhe Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:36:00 - [274] This is a different case from salvaging - there was a good reason why newer players would want to salvage things. But here there is nothing to stop newer players from overheating modules, its just that they aren't as good at it - I dont see a problem.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:37:00 - [275] I say keep its reqs high, screw the whiners.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:39:00 - [276] Originally by: Shidhe This is a different case from salvaging - there was a good reason why newer players would want to salvage things. But here there is nothing to stop newer players from overheating modules, its just that they aren't as good at it - I dont see a problem. They ARE stopped from overheating mods because of the high skill prereq.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:41:00 - [277] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 16:42:34 Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain I never said Vet's opinions do not matter. I said bringing up "the good ole days" is a nice bedtime story but really has nothing to do with the topic. It seemed to me that the post you were replying to earlier had a very valid point to make on skill training focus. That's very relevant to the topic, especially when directed towards newer players. His post could have been worded in a nicer fashion, but the point he was trying to make is still entirely vaild. This was his quote: "dont change the requirments at all!!! yes noobs may have a bit of a harder time gfetting it but dont you think they should be working on support skills for the modules not skills that can kill those mods, and if you were like me 2 years ago i had a hard enough time buying new ships" Okay, basically he is saying noobs should be working on support skills and not Heat. That is true which brings back my earlier point that not only do newer players have a pile of skills the NEED to even fly a simple ship like a Cruiser or BC effectively, they now also have a nice 3-4 week Energy Management Skill staring them in the face. It just widens the gap between the "Haves" and the "Have Nots" further. You are right. His point is valid and actually validates an argument to why Heat Reqs shouldn't be as steep as they are.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:02:00 - [278] Originally by: Hasak Rain You are right. His point is valid and actually validates an argument to why Heat Reqs shouldn't be as steep as they are. That's awfully creative. Read to me like he was simply suggesting they focus on more meaningful support skills until they're ready to use heat. By then the move to level 5 for EM would be either already done or not such a big deal to them. Of course we could debate and reinterpret what he said all day, I suppose. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:07:00 - [279] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/06/2007 17:09:23 ^^^^ Hi winterblink! Originally by: Kellyl Quote: Engineering level 5 Energy Management Level 5 Everyone should have these skills anyway :/. QUOTED FOR MOTHERF****** TRUTH. _________________ Burn.
ReePeR McAllem The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:10:00 - [280] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Kellyl Quote: Engineering level 5 Energy Management Level 5 Everyone should have these skills anyway :/. QUOTED FOR MOTHERF****** TRUTH. THROWS IN SOME MO TRUTH!!!! /me laughs at everybody who dont have energy management 5
ElCholo Minmatar FarCry Inc Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:11:00 - [281] dont nerf the reqs - every damn time we have a new feature with a lv5 skill as requirement we get crys of 'but i wanna use it now!' tractor beams .. salvage .. rigs .. come on . train a few skills instead of runnin to the forums.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:12:00 - [282] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain You are right. His point is valid and actually validates an argument to why Heat Reqs shouldn't be as steep as they are. That's awfully creative. Read to me like he was simply suggesting they focus on more meaningful support skills until they're ready to use heat. By then the move to level 5 for EM would be either already done or not such a big deal to them. Of course we could debate and reinterpret what he said all day, I suppose. How is it creative? It is the truth. Which part of having an extra three week to a month gap {on top of all of the basic support skills} between a noob and the vets are you finding creative?
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:16:00 - [283] Really though, why is it that every time CCP brings out a new skill, EVERYONE THINKS THEY'RE ENTITLED TO IT RIGHT AWAY? That didn't happen with Titans and Carriers and Motherships back in RMR! Players weren't saying "Lower the requirements to Spaceship Command 5!" No, that's lame. Just because you have a rank 3 skill you have to train to 5, you whine about it. I imagine though even if it was rank 1 you'd still complain. That's lame. It's not *FAIR* (this is totally the correct usage of the word) that every time CCP comes out with a new skill someone whines about it and it gets nerfed down to levels everybody can use. I say in this case CCP did the right thing and needs to stand by it. They had a goal for this skill, and I'm fairly certain the newbies with this skill would all get frustrated when they're having to spend their hard earned isks on repairing their modules all the time. Even though that's not my place to speak for, it's what I see happening. Lastly, everyone really should have these skills. They are what I call "required skills" and everyone should have these topped off anyway. 25% extra grid and capacitor are pretty hard to scoff at. Everyone wants things at 4 so they can train them for a day or two and then never have to think about it again. Well, I've got news for you all - You really need these skills trained to 5, because it makes you not a better ship, but a WISER PILOT. The better ship comes after you figure out why you trained those skills to 5. [/rant] _________________ Burn.
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:18:00 - [284] is it really that bad that it takes 9 pages in a post to get it all out? so your skill training gets altered a bit, big friggin deal. You want constructive input? EVE is tough, its a hard game, full of nastiness and generally it does not cater to the weak. My guy is probably way younger than yours, and no, i dont have EM to lvl 5 either, but it officially just made my list of things to train. Why? because i have to. period. no crying, no tissues, no nothing at all. just train the damn skill. I keep seeing you tell people to "not post if your going to tell me to go play another game, i only want constructive help"...well, maybe your getting it, your just too hard headed to notice. Did you ever think your in the wrong game? maybe you want something this game will NEVER give you, which is a free handout, or an easy path. In EVE, if its cool, or powerful, or even useful for the most part, it takes time to achieve. You will train for eons to properly fly a battleship (please note "properly"), and for my part, i hope they never give in to people who say its "too much". so what, 15 days out of your life to train a little skill, big friggin deal. Battleship 5 is like 60 days, seems id be happy to train a 15 day skill over a 60 day one, and yet, your not complaining about the training time of it...perhaps because you havent started yet, but i guess well see
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:21:00 - [285] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Really though, why is it that every time CCP brings out a new skill, EVERYONE THINKS THEY'RE ENTITLED TO IT RIGHT AWAY? That didn't happen with Titans and Carriers and Motherships back in RMR! Players weren't saying "Lower the requirements to Spaceship Command 5!" No, that's lame. Just because you have a rank 3 skill you have to train to 5, you whine about it. I imagine though even if it was rank 1 you'd still complain. That's lame. It's not *FAIR* (this is totally the correct usage of the word) that every time CCP comes out with a new skill someone whines about it and it gets nerfed down to levels everybody can use. I say in this case CCP did the right thing and needs to stand by it. They had a goal for this skill, and I'm fairly certain the newbies with this skill would all get frustrated when they're having to spend their hard earned isks on repairing their modules all the time. Even though that's not my place to speak for, it's what I see happening. Lastly, everyone really should have these skills. They are what I call "required skills" and everyone should have these topped off anyway. 25% extra grid and capacitor are pretty hard to scoff at. Everyone wants things at 4 so they can train them for a day or two and then never have to think about it again. Well, I've got news for you all - You really need these skills trained to 5, because it makes you not a better ship, but a WISER PILOT. The better ship comes after you figure out why you trained those skills to 5. [/rant] No what is lame is someone like you comparing this issue to someone wanting to fly a Mothership or a Carrier right away. I stopped reading after that. I guess wanting Heat reqs lowered one notch = The player base expecting to fly Capitals the day after their Trial acct ends.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:25:00 - [286] ^^^^ Then you're not intelligent for not reading the rest, because I drew lines as to why I brought that up. _________________ Burn.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:28:00 - [287] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa ^^^^ Then you're not intelligent for not reading the rest, because I drew lines as to why I brought that up. If attacking my intelligence is what makes you sleep better at night, then go for it. The truth is I just got bored with your drivel after the second sentence.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:30:00 - [288] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Siigari Kitawa ^^^^ Then you're not intelligent for not reading the rest, because I drew lines as to why I brought that up. If attacking my intelligence is what makes you sleep better at night, then go for it. The truth is I just got bored with your drivel after the second sentence. It's not drivel. Why, do you want the requirements reduced or kept at the same level? _________________ Burn.
Doomed Predator Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:32:00 - [289] Edited by: Doomed Predator on 20/06/2007 17:31:36 I don't have that skill and it will take a little over 2 weeks to train it up. But hey it's a very useful skill. Imagine if they made the req some god awful useless skill with no real bonus. Like tactical shield reconfiguration.
Rogue Clone Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:34:00 - [290] With something so major as heat... and it is major... I consider anything that requrest a complete re-tooling of the games UI as major... there should be little to no pre-reqs. I've got all the pre-reqs but Energy Mgt 5, I've got advanced learning skills trained, I've got +4's in my head and its still gonna take me another 12 days to train for heat... I feel bad for the poor noobs that are gonna have to devote almost a month training for heat... a month they could use getting into a battlecruiser or BS to actually get competitive. 12 days of training is almost half a month, which equals about 7 US Dollars worth of game time. Thats what really annoys me about heat, its such a blatant abuse by CCP to suck more money out of us and add yet another training time sink. IMO: Lowering reqs to E Mgt 4 would be a step in the right direction Lowering reqs to E Mgt 4 & Engineering 4 would be acceptable Removing all pre-reqs would be RIGHT
implanted Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:35:00 - [291] whine....reduce the requirements.....whine....nerf it....whine...whine...er and....whine.....JUST GET TRAINING LIKE WE ALL HAVE FFS
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:36:00 - [292] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:41:57 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Siigari Kitawa ^^^^ Then you're not intelligent for not reading the rest, because I drew lines as to why I brought that up. If attacking my intelligence is what makes you sleep better at night, then go for it. The truth is I just got bored with your drivel after the second sentence. It's not drivel. Why, do you want the requirements reduced or kept at the same level? I stated the reason multiple times in this thread but to recap, I think it just widens the gap between newer players and Vets too much. It is also an unnecessary time sink for intermediate players like myself who have a majority of support skills trained but haven't started EM 5 yet. Now if it were reqs to fly a Battleship we were talking about here, I would agree with the anti-whiners. However, we are talking about Heat which the playerbase has said throughout this thread isn't that big of a feature. It isn't going to be used much they say. Okay, if it isn't that big of a feature, why does it need such steep reqs? No one has answered that question yet and we are on page 10.
Juggernaut Kell Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:41:00 - [293] Actually I think they should lower the requirement, then these whining idiots will never train that skill up to lvl 5 and when I run across them I will be just a lil better then them skillwise and hence have an advantage over them all. morons 4tw
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:45:00 - [294] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/06/2007 17:50:25 Originally by: Hasak Rain I stated the reason multiple times in this thread but to recap, I think it just widens the gap between newer players and Vets too much. Now if it were reqs to fly a Battleship we were talking about here, I would agree with the anti-whiners. However, we are talking about Heat which the playerbase has said throughout this thread isn't that big of a feature. It isn't going to be used much they say. Okay, if it isn't that big of a feature, why does it need such steep reqs? No one has answered that question yet and we are on page 10. The argument that it isn't going to be used much has no direct relation to it's skill LEVEL. Heat is something that players are going to use frequently I imagine. Even so, the idea that you have of it "widening the gap" between vets and new players is backwards. Causing people to need to train a skill that they will likely need very much closes the gap, it does not widen it. By achieving these skills, you become better at EVE. If you just left them at 4, that's not encouraging anything. Plus, look at it at an RP way. Would you try to overclock*** something if you didn't already optimize it's energy efficiency? No. _________________ Burn.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:47:00 - [295] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:46:37 Originally by: Juggernaut Kell Actually I think they should lower the requirement, then these whining idiots will never train that skill up to lvl 5 and when I run across them I will be just a lil better then them skillwise and hence have an advantage over them all. morons 4tw Actually, I would train it anyway. When I feel like it. But.....Yes 5% more Capacitor is the deciding factor in every single fight in this game. No other skills or factors matter. If you were flying a Frigate, you would take out my Battleship because you have Energy Management 5 and I only have level 4. Idiot.
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:50:00 - [296] Edited by: Grath Telkin on 20/06/2007 17:52:19 Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Siigari Kitawa ^^^^ Then you're not intelligent for not reading the rest, because I drew lines as to why I brought that up. If attacking my intelligence is what makes you sleep better at night, then go for it. The truth is I just got bored with your drivel after the second sentence. It's not drivel. Why, do you want the requirements reduced or kept at the same level? I stated the reason multiple times in this thread but to recap, I think it just widens the gap between newer players and Vets too much. Now if it were reqs to fly a Battleship we were talking about here, I would agree with the anti-whiners. However, we are talking about Heat which the playerbase has said throughout this thread isn't that big of a feature. It isn't going to be used much they say. Okay, if it isn't that big of a feature, why does it need such steep reqs? No one has answered that question yet and we are on page 10. maybe because not many have grasped the effects heat WILL have on the game. an inty can burst a web now, a warp disruptor can jump out to 50+km on an arazu. seriously, the new guys will have to work for this ability just like every other, i think its sick that you all want everybody to be able to do this straight off. heat will affect the game in new ways, perhaps the steep requirements are being used to screen for exploits, that CCP hadnt thought of yet. Maybe, just maybe, the vets have the right to enjoy that veteran status a bit more, by already having those skills trained. Maybe, a new player shouldnt be worried about flying a BC or BS competitively without the pre-reqs for this skill, cause you REALLY would need most of them to be competitive in a true sense of the word anyway. maybe you should just train the skill, if you've done your "noob" homework, and have learning skills trained, lvl 5 EM isnt that friggin long. all of the skills that you need to use heat, will make you a more competitive pilot in the end, without them, your less likely to succeed, get over it, leave the damn skills reqs alone and just work for something once in awhile, instead of the forums filled with cries of "NERF NERF NERF" one day after the patch.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:52:00 - [297] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:53:39 Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:52:24 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Hasak Rain I stated the reason multiple times in this thread but to recap, I think it just widens the gap between newer players and Vets too much. Now if it were reqs to fly a Battleship we were talking about here, I would agree with the anti-whiners. However, we are talking about Heat which the playerbase has said throughout this thread isn't that big of a feature. It isn't going to be used much they say. Okay, if it isn't that big of a feature, why does it need such steep reqs? No one has answered that question yet and we are on page 10. The argument that it isn't going to be used much has no direct relation to it's skill LEVEL. Heat is something that players are going to use frequently I imagine. Even so, the idea that you have of it "widening the gap" between vets and new players is backwards. Causing people to need to train a skill that they will likely need very much closes the gap, it does not widen it. By achieving these skills, you become better at EVE. If you just left them at 4, that's not encouraging anything. Plus, look at it at an RP way. Would you try to overheat something if you didn't already optimize it's energy efficiency? No. It doesn't close the gap because new players have more important things to train first than Energy Management 5. They have piles upon piles of skills to train before they can even fly a Cruiser or a BC effectively. Adding a 3 week training skill to that list isn't helping them no matter how useful the skill is once they get it done. They are still being pushed back an extra month from the Vets who already had that skill trained. Like I said, I would agree with you if this were a class of ship or something like that but we are talking about a feature which is likely to become a staple in PvP.
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:55:00 - [298] why do you all keep saying 3 weeks, its 15 friggin days to train it with your learning skills done, friggin whine all you want, but state facts, if its taking you 3 weeks, you never finished something long ago you should have, and THAT, sounds like a personal problem
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:56:00 - [299] Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:46:37 Originally by: Juggernaut Kell Actually I think they should lower the requirement, then these whining idiots will never train that skill up to lvl 5 and when I run across them I will be just a lil better then them skillwise and hence have an advantage over them all. morons 4tw Actually, I would train it anyway. When I feel like it. But.....Yes 5% more Capacitor is the deciding factor in every single fight in this game. No other skills or factors matter. If you were flying a Frigate, you would take out my Battleship because you have Energy Management 5 and I only have level 4. Idiot. The difference is that this one skill effects every single ship you fly. There is a small subset of skills in the skill tree that do this, and all of them are worth training to level 5 as early as possible. Often the problem here is that the "young" players are so bitter about the perceived advantage that the "old" players have, that they view any advice as an insult. It is a shame really. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:57:00 - [300] Originally by: Hasak Rain It doesn't close the gap because new players have more important things to train first than Energy Management 5. They have piles upon piles of skills to train before they can even fly a Cruiser or a BC effectively. Adding a 3 week training skill to that list isn't helping them no matter how useful the skill is once they get it done. They are still being pushed back an extra month from the Vets who already had that skill trained. Like I said, I would agree with you if this were a class of ship or something like that but we are talking about a feature which is likely to become a staple in PvP. You missed my point. Everyone seems to think in "instant gratification" terms anymore. Simple fact is, YOU DONT NEED TO OVERCLOCK YOUR MODULES RIGHT NOW. When you do, train energy management and grid upgrades or whatever skills they are to 5 and reap the benefits of heat, while achieving two other great skills. That closes the gap. Because if you trained it to 4, then got heat, you would be 5% less than the vets. And then they'd be holding you at bay. _________________ Burn.
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:58:00 - [301] worst part about all this is, not even the miners, complain, and they dont even benefit that much from heat, AND it takes them an eon to get in a covetor....should we nerf the req's for that too then?
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:59:00 - [302] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:58:55 Originally by: Grath Telkin why do you all keep saying 3 weeks, its 15 friggin days to train it with your learning skills done, friggin whine all you want, but state facts, if its taking you 3 weeks, you never finished something long ago you should have, and THAT, sounds like a personal problem I have 100 million isk in attribute implants and over 1 million SPs in Learning and it will take me two weeks like you say. The three weeks to a month I was talking about is regarding new players who do not have or can afford implants. If you think you can train Energy Management 5 with very little Learning skills and no implants in two weeks, then you are a clueless noob. Get it?... or should I explain it to you slower?
DochMarr Ghosts Holdings Ghosts Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:59:00 - [303] babies, just train the skills!
Cyan Nuevo The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:59:00 - [304] Although I agree that the skill requirement should be IV, it's not going to get changed so get over it. --- Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo
justcheckingthemarket	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:01:00 - [305] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Grath Telkin why do you all keep saying 3 weeks, its 15 friggin days to train it with your learning skills done, friggin whine all you want, but state facts, if its taking you 3 weeks, you never finished something long ago you should have, and THAT, sounds like a personal problem I have 10 million in attribute implants and over 1 million SPs in Learning and it will take me two weeks like you say. The three weeks to a month I was talking about is regarding new players who do not have or can afford implants. If you think you can train Energy Management 5 with very little Learning skills and no implants in two weeks, then you are a clueless noob. Get it?... or should I explain it to you slower? what you probably don't get is that heat is not for noobs, thay should concentrate on learnings and better get mor than just a n00bish mil in learning before they start doing anything else, at least if they want to be effective ^^
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:04:00 - [306] Edited by: Grath Telkin on 20/06/2007 18:03:51 Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:58:55 Originally by: Grath Telkin why do you all keep saying 3 weeks, its 15 friggin days to train it with your learning skills done, friggin whine all you want, but state facts, if its taking you 3 weeks, you never finished something long ago you should have, and THAT, sounds like a personal problem I have 100 million isk in attribute implants and over 1 million SPs in Learning and it will take me two weeks like you say. The three weeks to a month I was talking about is regarding new players who do not have or can afford implants. If you think you can train Energy Management 5 with very little Learning skills and no implants in two weeks, then you are a clueless noob. Get it?... or should I explain it to you slower? and if he had read my post before, i already said they should have finished their learning skills...but perhaps i should type it slower for him i love it when they jump in with both feet...without reading, makes them look silly...wait, slow that down it looks like: S I L L Y
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:06:00 - [307] Originally by: justcheckingthemarket Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Grath Telkin why do you all keep saying 3 weeks, its 15 friggin days to train it with your learning skills done, friggin whine all you want, but state facts, if its taking you 3 weeks, you never finished something long ago you should have, and THAT, sounds like a personal problem I have 10 million in attribute implants and over 1 million SPs in Learning and it will take me two weeks like you say. The three weeks to a month I was talking about is regarding new players who do not have or can afford implants. If you think you can train Energy Management 5 with very little Learning skills and no implants in two weeks, then you are a clueless noob. Get it?... or should I explain it to you slower? what you probably don't get is that heat is not for noobs, thay should concentrate on learnings and better get mor than just a n00bish mil in learning before they start doing anything else, at least if they want to be effective ^^ Sigh...we are going around in circles. Yes I know it isn't for noobs. My point is in order to become a non-noob, they have to train basic skills, learning skills, ship support skills.........and now Energy management 5 to catch up to the vets. It is just another time sink CCP has put into the game and it is unnecessary because new players have enough to train as it is.
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:07:00 - [308] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: justcheckingthemarket Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Grath Telkin why do you all keep saying 3 weeks, its 15 friggin days to train it with your learning skills done, friggin whine all you want, but state facts, if its taking you 3 weeks, you never finished something long ago you should have, and THAT, sounds like a personal problem I have 10 million in attribute implants and over 1 million SPs in Learning and it will take me two weeks like you say. The three weeks to a month I was talking about is regarding new players who do not have or can afford implants. If you think you can train Energy Management 5 with very little Learning skills and no implants in two weeks, then you are a clueless noob. Get it?... or should I explain it to you slower? what you probably don't get is that heat is not for noobs, thay should concentrate on learnings and better get mor than just a n00bish mil in learning before they start doing anything else, at least if they want to be effective ^^ Sigh...we are going around in circles. Yes I know it isn't for noobs. My point is in order to become a non-noob, they have to train basic skills, learning skills, ship support skills.........and now Energy management 5 to catch up to the vets. It is just another time sink CCP has put into the game and it is unnecessary because new players have enough to train as it is. guess its a good thing thier skills are training while they rant on these forums then, they've got alot of work ahead of them
Alek Row Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:08:00 - [309] I can't use Heat yet, and tbh I will not change my skill plan to achieve it yet, maybe later. There are a really big array of skills to learn, some are very important for every pilot, others aren't. Why should we have a cookie-cutter skill plan? And how long and time consuming is that plan? 8 Million sp (like someone said) to jump to a cruiser? That looks nice for a second char/account, but NOT for the newbie that is learning EvE for the first time, he will do lot's of mistakes in his skill plan (I did) and I really doubt that a 1st time char would wait till 8m skill points to jump to a cruiser (I didn't). It's nice to have variety in what you want to learn, I have 15m sp if I'm not mistaken and I'm still learning stuff other people learned around 5m. It was my choice to learn what I wanted to learn at the time I wanted to do it. And EvE it's great because of that freedom of choice. Now it's like they are forcing people to waste time learning for I don't know how many weeks/months so they can use properly the UI (newbies don't have learning skills and really have a lot of important skills to learn). Of course nobody is forcing anything, but the Heat is there. I DON'T have a problem with the Heat pre-req skills, what really bothers me is the UI. I really like the EvE skill learning system. It feels nice when you achieve something that you wanted few days/weeks/months ago. And Heat is no exception. I never had a problem with EvE UI before, of course it could be better but no big deal. But this? The fact that everybody and their dog will have Heat on all his active modules and lot's of them can't use it, it's really ridiculous. And because of that, because Heat is spammed in all the EvE UIs of everybody, even if they are playing only for 4 days, or 4 months, or 4 years, what were you expecting? Of course people will complain. What I find ridiculous is that a new player will have Heat spammed all over the UI but he can't use it. Someone compared a carrier with Heat... damn, a new player will not login for the first time and see a Carrier in his hangar, but guess what, I believe he will have Heat on his civilian gun (not confirmed, but it seems the UI is unique, the old one was overwritten with RevII). If you want to compair a Carrier with Heat, put a carrier in the hangar of the newbie that is logging in EvE for the first time, then see what happen in the forums. Heat UI should only appear when you can use it, NOT BEFORE. OBS: I really have to say it, even if that makes me a bigger whiner, I hate people whining about whiners, you are whiners also you know that don't you? Of course... this fact makes me even a worse whiner... i'm whining about people whining about whiners. Bha.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:09:00 - [310] Originally by: Hasak Rain Yes I know it isn't for noobs. My point is in order to become a non-noob, they have to train basic skills, learning skills, ship support skills.........and now Energy management 5 to catch up to the vets. It is just another time sink CCP has put into the game and it is unnecessary because new players have enough to train as it is. The "vets" already put in their three weeks (or two weeks, or whatever) into the skill, or will have to if they already haven't. You're acting like this only affects new players. It doesn't. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Umit Davala Corpus PCG The State	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:09:00 - [311] Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Cornucopian Edited by: Cornucopian on 20/06/2007 13:02:03 this thread is sooooo sad. this is EVE ffs! everything takes time! shaddap with the whining!!! to refine the point: I'm a NOOB! yes people, I'm not a vet or anything. been playing EVE for about 1.5 months. and the VERY first thing I thought when I looked at the skill tree was: omfgthisgameis COOOL!! I could be training myself for years to come..... I wont be even thinking of flying carrier for the first half year! oh my god this game rocks! I've been here a month and a half and I'm already dying of irritation from all the "please please please nerf/boost/change/make/give" posts. now, to make the most deadly comparison of all: to mean something in wow you need to be lvl70. then you can start competing. If we do things your way, OP, then you would have 30K titans on concurrently, fighting only for the factiongear (i.e. tier x raid set) so please. shaddap. quite eve, go away, play hello kitty online. die. leave. ] STFU you WoW reject, you come on here after 1 an a half months an tell me to leave/quit EvE, get to ****. It's not like im askin for a big thing either, you know the original Drake whiners, who got the Caldaris most powerful tanking ship (for it's size), nerfed, oh ye you might not know about that either.. It's not like im asking for MS's to not be immune to EW.. Then again you may have nto seen 1 of them either.. Im asking a simple request, to low the requirement from level 5 to level 4.... And from someone who says "shaddup", you little buttmunch... Go an grow some pubes Jesus. Attack of the pre-teens. Just train the skills. Its part of Eve - be thankful that you are training while you sleep. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This post was brought to you in association with Amateur Dramatics Forum Whoring, and Quafe Ultra: in the heat of the moment.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:11:00 - [312] Originally by: Alek Row And because of that, because Heat is spammed in all the EvE UIs of everybody, even if they are playing only for 4 days, or 4 months, or 4 years, what were you expecting? Of course people will complain. Spammed? How are you spammed in the UI by heat? I got the skill requirement message once, when I clicked on the toggle ring of my F1 gun. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:11:00 - [313] Originally by: Grath Telkin Edited by: Grath Telkin on 20/06/2007 18:03:51 Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:58:55 Originally by: Grath Telkin why do you all keep saying 3 weeks, its 15 friggin days to train it with your learning skills done, friggin whine all you want, but state facts, if its taking you 3 weeks, you never finished something long ago you should have, and THAT, sounds like a personal problem I have 100 million isk in attribute implants and over 1 million SPs in Learning and it will take me two weeks like you say. The three weeks to a month I was talking about is regarding new players who do not have or can afford implants. If you think you can train Energy Management 5 with very little Learning skills and no implants in two weeks, then you are a clueless noob. Get it?... or should I explain it to you slower? and if he had read my post before, i already said they should have finished their learning skills...but perhaps i should type it slower for him i love it when they jump in with both feet...without reading, makes them look silly...wait, slow that down it looks like: S I L L Y Post something worth reading first and then we can talk. If it makes you feel any better though, muppets like you are making my work day go faster. I have been able to post all day because my bosses are in a meeting.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:13:00 - [314] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain Yes I know it isn't for noobs. My point is in order to become a non-noob, they have to train basic skills, learning skills, ship support skills.........and now Energy management 5 to catch up to the vets. It is just another time sink CCP has put into the game and it is unnecessary because new players have enough to train as it is. The "vets" already put in their three weeks (or two weeks, or whatever) into the skill, or will have to if they already haven't. You're acting like this only affects new players. It doesn't. No I said many times it also affects many intermediate players as well. Players who have around 10 million SPs and have been playing for about half a year.
Alek Row Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:14:00 - [315] Originally by: Winterblink Spammed? How are you spammed in the UI by heat? I got the skill requirement message once, when I clicked on the toggle ring of my F1 gun. Bad choice of words, the heat bars are in all active modules and in the navigation UI. When I said spam it was not verbal messages spam, more of a graphical heat bars spam.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:15:00 - [316] Originally by: Hasak Rain No I said many times it also affects many intermediate players as well. Players who have around 10 million SPs and have been playing for about half a year. No, it effects everyone equally. No-one had the pre-reqs gifted upon them, either people have already invested the time, or they will have to. No-one is getting a "leg up" here, nor should they. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:15:00 - [317] Originally by: Alek Row I can't use Heat yet, and tbh I will not change my skill plan to achieve it yet, maybe later. There are a really big array of skills to learn, some are very important for every pilot, others aren't. Why should we have a cookie-cutter skill plan? And how long and time consuming is that plan? 8 Million sp (like someone said) to jump to a cruiser? That looks nice for a second char/account, but NOT for the newbie that is learning EvE for the first time, he will do lot's of mistakes in his skill plan (I did) and I really doubt that a 1st time char would wait till 8m skill points to jump to a cruiser (I didn't). It's nice to have variety in what you want to learn, I have 15m sp if I'm not mistaken and I'm still learning stuff other people learned around 5m. It was my choice to learn what I wanted to learn at the time I wanted to do it. And EvE it's great because of that freedom of choice. Now it's like they are forcing people to waste time learning for I don't know how many weeks/months so they can use properly the UI (newbies don't have learning skills and really have a lot of important skills to learn). Of course nobody is forcing anything, but the Heat is there. I DON'T have a problem with the Heat pre-req skills, what really bothers me is the UI. I really like the EvE skill learning system. It feels nice when you achieve something that you wanted few days/weeks/months ago. And Heat is no exception. I never had a problem with EvE UI before, of course it could be better but no big deal. But this? The fact that everybody and their dog will have Heat on all his active modules and lot's of them can't use it, it's really ridiculous. And because of that, because Heat is spammed in all the EvE UIs of everybody, even if they are playing only for 4 days, or 4 months, or 4 years, what were you expecting? Of course people will complain. What I find ridiculous is that a new player will have Heat spammed all over the UI but he can't use it. Someone compared a carrier with Heat... damn, a new player will not login for the first time and see a Carrier in his hangar, but guess what, I believe he will have Heat on his civilian gun (not confirmed, but it seems the UI is unique, the old one was overwritten with RevII). If you want to compair a Carrier with Heat, put a carrier in the hangar of the newbie that is logging in EvE for the first time, then see what happen in the forums. Heat UI should only appear when you can use it, NOT BEFORE. OBS: I really have to say it, even if that makes me a bigger whiner, I hate people whining about whiners, you are whiners also you know that don't you? Of course... this fact makes me even a worse whiner... i'm whining about people whining about whiners. Bha. the last live dev blog said this UI isnt final, that they didnt like it, and they were looking to change it, but that it was the best functional UI they had on deck atm of launch. As to being a whiner...yes, i am, im a married man, i remember that being part of the vows "do you promise to take this mans whining, in sickness and it health..." she said yes, so i started whining. I think its a married thing. I did have a grump about the UI, but i was waiting till all of Rev II is out to see how it changes before i said something.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:15:00 - [318] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain Yes I know it isn't for noobs. My point is in order to become a non-noob, they have to train basic skills, learning skills, ship support skills.........and now Energy management 5 to catch up to the vets. It is just another time sink CCP has put into the game and it is unnecessary because new players have enough to train as it is. The "vets" already put in their three weeks (or two weeks, or whatever) into the skill, or will have to if they already haven't. You're acting like this only affects new players. It doesn't. No I said many times it also affects many intermediate players as well. Players who have around 10 million SPs and have been playing for about half a year. Sounds good. So ... who do they have to "catch up" to, again? warp drive active \| nature vraie
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:17:00 - [319] Originally by: Winterblink Sounds good. So ... who do they have to "catch up" to, again? WDA working in the IGB yet Blinky? (Sorry, thought it was time for an important question). The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:19:00 - [320] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Grath Telkin Edited by: Grath Telkin on 20/06/2007 18:03:51 Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:58:55 Originally by: Grath Telkin why do you all keep saying 3 weeks, its 15 friggin days to train it with your learning skills done, friggin whine all you want, but state facts, if its taking you 3 weeks, you never finished something long ago you should have, and THAT, sounds like a personal problem I have 100 million isk in attribute implants and over 1 million SPs in Learning and it will take me two weeks like you say. The three weeks to a month I was talking about is regarding new players who do not have or can afford implants. If you think you can train Energy Management 5 with very little Learning skills and no implants in two weeks, then you are a clueless noob. Get it?... or should I explain it to you slower? and if he had read my post before, i already said they should have finished their learning skills...but perhaps i should type it slower for him i love it when they jump in with both feet...without reading, makes them look silly...wait, slow that down it looks like: S I L L Y Post something worth reading first and then we can talk. If it makes you feel any better though, muppets like you are making my work day go faster. I have been able to post all day because my bosses are in a meeting. sings the old muppet theme song quietly man those were the days...i miss gonzo, i think ill give him a call, see whats *****in
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:19:00 - [321] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Winterblink Sounds good. So ... who do they have to "catch up" to, again? WDA working in the IGB yet Blinky? (Sorry, thought it was time for an important question). Heh. I blogged it on winterblink.com, will be looking into it once I'm off work. I bugrep'd it just in case, since I know I didn't change anything. Not like there's any IGB changes in the patch notes, of course... warp drive active \| nature vraie
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:24:00 - [322] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain Yes I know it isn't for noobs. My point is in order to become a non-noob, they have to train basic skills, learning skills, ship support skills.........and now Energy management 5 to catch up to the vets. It is just another time sink CCP has put into the game and it is unnecessary because new players have enough to train as it is. The "vets" already put in their three weeks (or two weeks, or whatever) into the skill, or will have to if they already haven't. You're acting like this only affects new players. It doesn't. No I said many times it also affects many intermediate players as well. Players who have around 10 million SPs and have been playing for about half a year. Sounds good. So ... who do they have to "catch up" to, again? Not sure I understand your question. If you mean intermediate players who haven't trained EM 5 yet, they are looking at an extra two weeks of training. At least I am. And no, I would rather not PvP without Heat if everyone else out there who knows what they are doing has it so it is a "must train" in my book. A noob has an extra level 3 skill he gets to worry about just like the intermediate player. Except he gets to train all the other stuff that he needs before he should even think about EM 5. In other words, the gap has widen even more for the poor noob just coming off of the Trial acct.
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:27:00 - [323] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain Yes I know it isn't for noobs. My point is in order to become a non-noob, they have to train basic skills, learning skills, ship support skills.........and now Energy management 5 to catch up to the vets. It is just another time sink CCP has put into the game and it is unnecessary because new players have enough to train as it is. The "vets" already put in their three weeks (or two weeks, or whatever) into the skill, or will have to if they already haven't. You're acting like this only affects new players. It doesn't. No I said many times it also affects many intermediate players as well. Players who have around 10 million SPs and have been playing for about half a year. Sounds good. So ... who do they have to "catch up" to, again? Not sure I understand your question. If you mean intermediate players who haven't trained EM 5 yet, they are looking at an extra two weeks of training. At least I am. And no, I would rather not PvP without Heat if everyone else out there who knows what they are doing has it so it is a "must train" in my book. A noob has an extra level 3 skill he gets to worry about just like the intermediate player. Except he gets to train all the other stuff that he needs before he should even think about EM 5. In other words, the gap has widen even more for the poor noob just coming off of the Trial acct. there always will, and always should be a significant gap between us new guys, and the guys who have been slugging it out for years. i think alot of players would find a new game to play were it not so
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:35:00 - [324] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 18:34:18 Originally by: Grath Telkin Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain Yes I know it isn't for noobs. My point is in order to become a non-noob, they have to train basic skills, learning skills, ship support skills.........and now Energy management 5 to catch up to the vets. It is just another time sink CCP has put into the game and it is unnecessary because new players have enough to train as it is. The "vets" already put in their three weeks (or two weeks, or whatever) into the skill, or will have to if they already haven't. You're acting like this only affects new players. It doesn't. No I said many times it also affects many intermediate players as well. Players who have around 10 million SPs and have been playing for about half a year. Sounds good. So ... who do they have to "catch up" to, again? Not sure I understand your question. If you mean intermediate players who haven't trained EM 5 yet, they are looking at an extra two weeks of training. At least I am. And no, I would rather not PvP without Heat if everyone else out there who knows what they are doing has it so it is a "must train" in my book. A noob has an extra level 3 skill he gets to worry about just like the intermediate player. Except he gets to train all the other stuff that he needs before he should even think about EM 5. In other words, the gap has widen even more for the poor noob just coming off of the Trial acct. there always will, and always should be a significant gap between us new guys, and the guys who have been slugging it out for years. i think alot of players would find a new game to play were it not so I agree there should be a gap. I think players who have been playing and "put the time in" deserve to have better characters. However, how many more time sinks will CCP put in before new players say "screw this" because they know that gap is insurmountable and they feel they would just be wasting their money? Heck, even before this Heat feature, word around popular forums was "it is too late to start EvE." I don't think that is true but this latest time sink isn't going to help that perception very much.
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:35:00 - [325] I think the reqs are great, it gives me a reason to train a skill that I otherwise felt spending like 12-13 days to train to lv 5 just wasn't worth it at my current skill place before. Several other skills have better benefits for the time, except now its for heat, so it makes it worth training now.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:36:00 - [326] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain Yes I know it isn't for noobs. My point is in order to become a non-noob, they have to train basic skills, learning skills, ship support skills.........and now Energy management 5 to catch up to the vets. It is just another time sink CCP has put into the game and it is unnecessary because new players have enough to train as it is. The "vets" already put in their three weeks (or two weeks, or whatever) into the skill, or will have to if they already haven't. You're acting like this only affects new players. It doesn't. No I said many times it also affects many intermediate players as well. Players who have around 10 million SPs and have been playing for about half a year. Sounds good. So ... who do they have to "catch up" to, again? Not sure I understand your question. Well, you've indicated that both new and intermediate players will have to train the skill, and I indicated that veteran players have either already trained it or will have to as well. So I ask again, who are the new and intermediate players having to catch up to? Or, as expressed by Avon earlier, nobody has a "leg up". warp drive active \| nature vraie
hellwarrior Caldari Endgame.	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:37:00 - [327] anyone using heat, would more than likely be pvping. any pvp pilot should already have his cap skills maxed out. if you don't, lol @ you.
Neaghan Grebs Aerial Boundaries Inc. Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:39:00 - [328] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain You are right. His point is valid and actually validates an argument to why Heat Reqs shouldn't be as steep as they are. That's awfully creative. Read to me like he was simply suggesting they focus on more meaningful support skills until they're ready to use heat. By then the move to level 5 for EM would be either already done or not such a big deal to them. Of course we could debate and reinterpret what he said all day, I suppose. How is it creative? It is the truth. Which part of having an extra three week to a month gap {on top of all of the basic support skills} between a noob and the vets are you finding creative? Honestly, how the hell do you think this disadvantages the noobs? The vets had to train the damn skills anyway! I don't have the skill and personally I couldn't give a ** how high the pre-reqs are! The vets have done their time training the skills, so should the rest of us. Stop whining and realise that EVE isn't meant to be easy after 5 months. If you can't stand the heat pre-reqs, get out the ***** game! (Cheesy adaption of good ole cliche, loving it )
Takahashi Arran coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:42:00 - [329] Originally by: hellwarrior anyone using heat, would more than likely be pvping. any pvp pilot should already have his cap skills maxed out. if you don't, lol @ you. most people will have energy management 4 and the rank 1 skill to level 5. People saying otherwise are lying or have compromised skill training elsewhere. Unless your a capital pilot the current pvp environment makes it far more profitable to put those 14 days elsewhere. All these smug people trying to boost their ego by claiming energy management 5 was an essential pvp skill are just proving that they are forum warriors and nothing else.
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:44:00 - [330] Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 20/06/2007 18:43:08 noobs are at a disadvantage anyway. The only ones going to have thermo is a more experienced player anyway and a noob is going to be screwed fighting someone with high SP anyway. Thermo won't help them win, and it won't make them lose. Hell i started playing a year ago and vets weren't ver really a huge issue.. just have to learn what to avoid, if people can't figure it out after a while they simply don't have the affinity for survival.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:44:00 - [331] Originally by: Neaghan Grebs Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain You are right. His point is valid and actually validates an argument to why Heat Reqs shouldn't be as steep as they are. That's awfully creative. Read to me like he was simply suggesting they focus on more meaningful support skills until they're ready to use heat. By then the move to level 5 for EM would be either already done or not such a big deal to them. Of course we could debate and reinterpret what he said all day, I suppose. How is it creative? It is the truth. Which part of having an extra three week to a month gap {on top of all of the basic support skills} between a noob and the vets are you finding creative? Honestly, how the hell do you think this disadvantages the noobs? The vets had to train the damn skills anyway! I don't have the skill and personally I couldn't give a ** how high the pre-reqs are! The vets have done their time training the skills, so should the rest of us. Stop whining and realise that EVE isn't meant to be easy after 5 months. If you can't stand the heat pre-reqs, get out the ***** game! (Cheesy adaption of good ole cliche, loving it ) Why is it everyone who disagrees with my views attempts to bully me into agreeing with cuss words and orders to "stop whining"..lol Hey clueless, we are on page 12 and it still hasn't worked yet. You did impress me with your internet tough guy act though. Really you did.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:44:00 - [332] Originally by: Hasak Rain Why is it everyone who disagrees with my views attempts to bully me into agreeing with cuss words and orders to "stop whining"..lol Did I? I don't think so. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Kaylana Syi The Nest	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:46:00 - [333] I actually think they should lower it to lvl 4 for EM. As a person who uses cap injectors on PVP ships EM 5 is nowhere near as useful as the people in this thread make it out to be. It isn't the difference on an interceptor to hold someone down 'that' much longer nor is it a skill that will make or break a battleship's tank. 5 PVP capable accounts, 3 capital pilots, all t2 weapon and ships, and I have yet to train this skill on any character I have. I have better things to train in its place. I would think Eng. 5, EM 4 and Science 5 would be enough. Making it Eng 5, EM 5 and Sci 4 seems a bit... well... uneccessary. Everyone in here nashing your teeth at the OP for whining... guess what... you are whining about a whiner. I am whining about people whining about people whining. Its a viscious circle. However, trying to say that this skill is what any self respecting pilot should have at 5mil SP is just foolish. Its the 'you have to have 1.8m in learning skills before you actuallyplay the game' argument all over. You were wrong then and you are wrong now. Heat is such a fundamental aspect of Rev II and eve combat its really stupid to require a 17-20 day skill just to get lvl 1. Team Minmatar
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:48:00 - [334] Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 20/06/2007 18:49:50 Quote: 5 PVP capable accounts, 3 capital pilots, all t2 weapon and ships, and I have yet to train this skill on any character I have Perfect reason to keep it at 5.. it gives you a reason to train it.. it makes the skill more useful, thus eliminating a worthless skill.. Two birds in one stone. Quote: Why is it everyone who disagrees with my views attempts to bully me into agreeing with cuss words and orders to "stop whining"..lol Why is it that your main argument, whether written or not, is that you don't feel like training rank 5 of EM and you're appealing to everyones laziness in order to satisfy your own :P
Kaylana Syi The Nest	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:51:00 - [335] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Quote: 5 PVP capable accounts, 3 capital pilots, all t2 weapon and ships, and I have yet to train this skill on any character I have Perfect reason to keep it at 5.. it gives you a reason to train it.. it makes the skill more useful, thus eliminating a worthless skill.. Two birds in one stone. Its not a skill I need to melt your face off. Thus, if you want to make it more usefull, make it more useful. Being a prerequisite in the sense of jump drive operation 5 to jump drive calibration doesn't make it more useful, it makes it more annoying and more of a time sink. Team Minmatar
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:51:00 - [336] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain Yes I know it isn't for noobs. My point is in order to become a non-noob, they have to train basic skills, learning skills, ship support skills.........and now Energy management 5 to catch up to the vets. It is just another time sink CCP has put into the game and it is unnecessary because new players have enough to train as it is. The "vets" already put in their three weeks (or two weeks, or whatever) into the skill, or will have to if they already haven't. You're acting like this only affects new players. It doesn't. No I said many times it also affects many intermediate players as well. Players who have around 10 million SPs and have been playing for about half a year. Sounds good. So ... who do they have to "catch up" to, again? Not sure I understand your question. Well, you've indicated that both new and intermediate players will have to train the skill, and I indicated that veteran players have either already trained it or will have to as well. So I ask again, who are the new and intermediate players having to catch up to? Or, as expressed by Avon earlier, nobody has a "leg up". They need to catch up to the Vet who has been playing for a number of years. I know that a player who is behind and started the game later will never truly catch up in total SPs but that doesn't matter when you are talking about individual ships which have a limit to how much you can train for them. Heat obviously isn't a ship though. It is a feature which will be used mostly in PvP which makes it a "must train." It is another thing that players need to get which means EM 5 is now a "must train." Oh and I don't buy that you HAD to have EM 5 trained to PvP. I don't have it and do fine. Sure I would be a bit better if I trained it but it is hardly an "I-Win button." Well unless you fly only Amarr.
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:53:00 - [337] While we're at it, make T2 hardeners only take Hull Upgrades 4.. cause really, 5% armor, even on a BS, is only gonna give you like 300, and really, if your tank on a BS is reliant on 300 armor you're going to lose anyway. So lets just lower it to 4, cause its a worthless timesink. /sarcasm off
Neaghan Grebs Aerial Boundaries Inc. Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:54:00 - [338] Originally by: Hasak Rain Why is it everyone who disagrees with my views attempts to bully me into agreeing with cuss words and orders to "stop whining"..lol Hey clueless, we are on page 12 and it still hasn't worked yet. You did impress me with your internet tough guy act though. Really you did. Tough guy act??? I'm a great big girly girl who likes pink, kittens, flowers and fluffy wuffy toys. The points still applies, the vets learned the skills, so should you. You've got more of a reason to learn the damn skill now anyway. Some people just can't see the simplicity of it
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:55:00 - [339] in simplest terms, the old guys do the cool stuff that makes the new guys go "ooooh, i wanna do that". This will change nothing, a new pilot will web a old pilot, he will burn up his mwd to get out and save his rigged out vaga, and the new pilot will go "damn, i wanna do that". He will then train for the use of heat. As a consequence, he will get some nice support skills, that otherwise he may have waited to train. Put simply, noobs shouldnt be able to keep up with vets at all, otherwise, why would i waste all that time training? I know they have a lot on their plate to get to a decent skill set, and yes, heat should be secondary to MANY other skills, but does that mean it should be nerfed so the new guys can use it? no. They will get to use it like everyone else, in due time. Yes the vets all likely were using it yesterday, but oh well, they earned it, just like the rest of us will. The main difference is that they all trained those skills out of choice, not for some new skill, taking the same amount of time we will take, and now, they get a reward for it. If we want that reward, we will train the skills, if we dont, oh friggin well. They WERE new, they fought, bled, waited for long skills, waited some more, and now they reap the benefits. If a new player wants on the same plane of exsistance as the vets, he/she will undertake the same gauntlet of frustration and training that they all went through. Even better, they have a support staff of thousands of players to help guide them that the O.G's never had, so in effect, they ARE getting a better deal. Not to mention we start off with a truckload of sp's they didnt get. Anyone in support of truly leveling the field and starting your alt's as they all did?
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:56:00 - [340] Quote: You've got more of a reason to learn the damn skill now anyway. Some people just can't see the simplicity of it Its amazing how people focus entirely on the new skill and don't realize things like this are in place with many other skills. Heat certainly isn't a necessity, its a specialization. If you want it, you should have to invest in the timesink for it.
Zirketch Kruug	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:56:00 - [341] Whingers I flame you all with my flamy flaminess...... noobs are noobs... we all were one once... I've been in game 18 months now and still consider myself a noob, and to be perfectly honest I agree with Neaghan there, those have already put the effort into training the pre-reqs for the skill deserve the added cherry it provides. if all pre-reqs for all skills was just lvl 3 why would anyone train any of them to lvl 4 or 5.... so come on... sometimes you need to get off your lazy bahooky and put some effort into the game. no only do I see whinging gits in this forum post but I see lazy ones too.... CCP leave the pre-reqs as they are... please do not Dumb down the game any further, the quality of eve is only matched by it's complexity and actual work effort we (the players) must put into it.
Umit Davala Corpus PCG The State	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:58:00 - [342] Originally by: Grath Telkin in simplest terms, the old guys do the cool stuff that makes the new guys go "ooooh, i wanna do that". This will change nothing, a new pilot will web a old pilot, he will burn up his mwd to get out and save his rigged out vaga, and the new pilot will go "damn, i wanna do that". He will then train for the use of heat. As a consequence, he will get some nice support skills, that otherwise he may have waited to train. Put simply, noobs shouldnt be able to keep up with vets at all, otherwise, why would i waste all that time training? I know they have a lot on their plate to get to a decent skill set, and yes, heat should be secondary to MANY other skills, but does that mean it should be nerfed so the new guys can use it? no. They will get to use it like everyone else, in due time. Yes the vets all likely were using it yesterday, but oh well, they earned it, just like the rest of us will. The main difference is that they all trained those skills out of choice, not for some new skill, taking the same amount of time we will take, and now, they get a reward for it. If we want that reward, we will train the skills, if we dont, oh friggin well. They WERE new, they fought, bled, waited for long skills, waited some more, and now they reap the benefits. If a new player wants on the same plane of exsistance as the vets, he/she will undertake the same gauntlet of frustration and training that they all went through. Even better, they have a support staff of thousands of players to help guide them that the O.G's never had, so in effect, they ARE getting a better deal. Not to mention we start off with a truckload of sp's they didnt get. Anyone in support of truly leveling the field and starting your alt's as they all did? Spot on. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This post was brought to you in association with Amateur Dramatics Forum Whoring, and Quafe Ultra: in the heat of the moment.
Kaylana Syi The Nest	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:01:00 - [343] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon While we're at it, make T2 hardeners only take Hull Upgrades 4.. cause really, 5% armor, even on a BS, is only gonna give you like 300, and really, if your tank on a BS is reliant on 300 armor you're going to lose anyway. So lets just lower it to 4, cause its a worthless timesink. /sarcasm off Or you know, you could not try to compare apples to oranges. Since tech 2 has nothing to do with the concept of heat, which is a concept of foundational eve piloting mechanic. But while were here, lets talk about how much a dread gurista's invul needs to have its skill requirements boosted to tactical shield manipulation 5 because its stats > tech 2 Team Minmatar
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:05:00 - [344] Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 20/06/2007 19:03:54 Quote: But while were here, lets talk about how much a dread gurista's invul needs to have its skill requirements boosted to tactical shield manipulation 5 because its stats > tech 2 If you'er able to afford to fly around with one of those it means you're either stupid or skilled enough to survive some battles. So really, skill reqs on it don't matter at all, the requirement is like 350mil to throw around on a module. And I'd say that heat really does seem like a 'tech 2' skill, its a specialized technique for most active modules.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:06:00 - [345] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Quote: You've got more of a reason to learn the damn skill now anyway. Some people just can't see the simplicity of it Its amazing how people focus entirely on the new skill and don't realize things like this are in place with many other skills. Heat certainly isn't a necessity, its a specialization. If you want it, you should have to invest in the timesink for it. What I find amusing is that you and many others say Heat won't be a necessity. Yet this is the same player base who on the drop of a hat can produce a graph which shows certain weapons doing more/less damage than their counterparts within another race and at what range and can get these numbers by the decimal point. Not to mention all the number crunching that goes on with programs such as Quick Fit and Evemon. You are going to sit there and tell me that Heat will not be an important advantage and necessity in PvP. Okay
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:09:00 - [346] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Neaghan Grebs Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain You are right. His point is valid and actually validates an argument to why Heat Reqs shouldn't be as steep as they are. That's awfully creative. Read to me like he was simply suggesting they focus on more meaningful support skills until they're ready to use heat. By then the move to level 5 for EM would be either already done or not such a big deal to them. Of course we could debate and reinterpret what he said all day, I suppose. How is it creative? It is the truth. Which part of having an extra three week to a month gap {on top of all of the basic support skills} between a noob and the vets are you finding creative? Honestly, how the hell do you think this disadvantages the noobs? The vets had to train the damn skills anyway! I don't have the skill and personally I couldn't give a ** how high the pre-reqs are! The vets have done their time training the skills, so should the rest of us. Stop whining and realise that EVE isn't meant to be easy after 5 months. If you can't stand the heat pre-reqs, get out the ***** game! (Cheesy adaption of good ole cliche, loving it ) Why is it everyone who disagrees with my views attempts to bully me into agreeing with cuss words and orders to "stop whining"..lol Hey clueless, we are on page 12 and it still hasn't worked yet. You did impress me with your internet tough guy act though. Really you did. Because... you are whining as a matter of fact... Hence the "stop whining"... _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:09:00 - [347] Quote: You are going to sit there and tell me that Heat will not be an important advantage and necessity in PvP. Sure, its going to be an advantage. So are T2 modules, so are T2 ships, so are officer modules. So why don't we make them easy to train for, or easily acquired? Just because its an advantage doesn't make it a requirement. Just like anything else, if its good, its worth training for.
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:10:00 - [348] Originally by: Umit Davala Originally by: Grath Telkin in simplest terms, the old guys do the cool stuff that makes the new guys go "ooooh, i wanna do that". This will change nothing, a new pilot will web a old pilot, he will burn up his mwd to get out and save his rigged out vaga, and the new pilot will go "damn, i wanna do that". He will then train for the use of heat. As a consequence, he will get some nice support skills, that otherwise he may have waited to train. Put simply, noobs shouldnt be able to keep up with vets at all, otherwise, why would i waste all that time training? I know they have a lot on their plate to get to a decent skill set, and yes, heat should be secondary to MANY other skills, but does that mean it should be nerfed so the new guys can use it? no. They will get to use it like everyone else, in due time. Yes the vets all likely were using it yesterday, but oh well, they earned it, just like the rest of us will. The main difference is that they all trained those skills out of choice, not for some new skill, taking the same amount of time we will take, and now, they get a reward for it. If we want that reward, we will train the skills, if we dont, oh friggin well. They WERE new, they fought, bled, waited for long skills, waited some more, and now they reap the benefits. If a new player wants on the same plane of exsistance as the vets, he/she will undertake the same gauntlet of frustration and training that they all went through. Even better, they have a support staff of thousands of players to help guide them that the O.G's never had, so in effect, they ARE getting a better deal. Not to mention we start off with a truckload of sp's they didnt get. Anyone in support of truly leveling the field and starting your alt's as they all did? Spot on. lol, it may be, but they dont read the good stuff, they all seem to be looking for argument points, so essentially, this thread has deteriorated to a shouting match, with neither side looking at facts, and both just flaming the other...but thanks for noticing Umit
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:12:00 - [349] Originally by: sesanti Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Neaghan Grebs Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Hasak Rain You are right. His point is valid and actually validates an argument to why Heat Reqs shouldn't be as steep as they are. That's awfully creative. Read to me like he was simply suggesting they focus on more meaningful support skills until they're ready to use heat. By then the move to level 5 for EM would be either already done or not such a big deal to them. Of course we could debate and reinterpret what he said all day, I suppose. How is it creative? It is the truth. Which part of having an extra three week to a month gap {on top of all of the basic support skills} between a noob and the vets are you finding creative? Honestly, how the hell do you think this disadvantages the noobs? The vets had to train the damn skills anyway! I don't have the skill and personally I couldn't give a ** how high the pre-reqs are! The vets have done their time training the skills, so should the rest of us. Stop whining and realise that EVE isn't meant to be easy after 5 months. If you can't stand the heat pre-reqs, get out the ***** game! (Cheesy adaption of good ole cliche, loving it ) Why is it everyone who disagrees with my views attempts to bully me into agreeing with cuss words and orders to "stop whining"..lol Hey clueless, we are on page 12 and it still hasn't worked yet. You did impress me with your internet tough guy act though. Really you did. Because... you are whining as a matter of fact... Hence the "stop whining"... Point out my "whine." I am just discussing a topic. Unless something that you don't want discussed defines a whine. Sorry but I don't subscribe to that kindergarten logic.
Drofier Ilmatti Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:13:00 - [350] Seeing as this post is 12 pages long already, I will not read through it all. However, I do want to throw in my vote for keeping it at Energy Management lvl 5 for a few reasons. It isn't that long of a train. Only 2 weeks. Also, the bonus it gives is great. I know a lot of people who trained it years ago. I even have it on my Caldari ship pilot. Heat isn't too powerful. Just one mod overheating can cause significant damage to your whole rack (maybe pre-nurfed?). Also, the bonus from just one mod isn't too great. Bonus from a whole rack is amazing, but you will only be able to get off a few shots from your guns (or a matter of seconds for hardeners) before things start shutting off. It is my firm belief that this is all good. You can also look at it from the RP stance and see it as it would take a lot of skill and work to do this. Controlled overload on top of everything else that you as a pilot are doing.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:16:00 - [351] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 19:16:08 Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Quote: You are going to sit there and tell me that Heat will not be an important advantage and necessity in PvP. Sure, its going to be an advantage. So are T2 modules, so are T2 ships, so are officer modules. So why don't we make them easy to train for, or easily acquired? Just because its an advantage doesn't make it a requirement. Just like anything else, if its good, its worth training for. Most T2 modules skills don't take over two weeks to train from level 4 to level 5. Hell, most T2 modules don't even require lvl 5 Like I said in an earlier post about 2,000 pages ago, in the time it takes to train EM 5, I could almost be trained for a Hac instead.
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:20:00 - [352] Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 20/06/2007 19:23:17 Quote: Like I said in an earlier post about 2,000 pages ago, in the time it takes to train EM 5, I could almost be trained for a Hac instead. Then I'd say you'd be pretty dumb to train for thermodynamics when you could get HAC instead. They added bombs to the game, yet I don't see anyone complaining about making bombers easier to train for or bombs easier to use.. Just because thermodynamics is new and cool sounding doesn't mean its going to be handed to you. Its an advantage, just like any other skill, its up to you to decide which skill will give the most advantage per hour of training and then train that skill, not what skill is newest or the new fad or wahtever. Quote: I agree with most of what you said. I just hate seeing yet another time sink put in which I think it just a bit too long for a feature like this. Well, if you see someone sporting overheating you should laugh and say "HAHA you wasted 2 weeks on soemthing notw orth it, while I trained <Insert some sweet skill here> so I have a huge advantage over you" and then proceed to turn them to space dust.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:22:00 - [353] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 19:22:04 Originally by: Drofier Ilmatti Seeing as this post is 12 pages long already, I will not read through it all. However, I do want to throw in my vote for keeping it at Energy Management lvl 5 for a few reasons. It isn't that long of a train. Only 2 weeks. Also, the bonus it gives is great. I know a lot of people who trained it years ago. I even have it on my Caldari ship pilot. Heat isn't too powerful. Just one mod overheating can cause significant damage to your whole rack (maybe pre-nurfed?). Also, the bonus from just one mod isn't too great. Bonus from a whole rack is amazing, but you will only be able to get off a few shots from your guns (or a matter of seconds for hardeners) before things start shutting off. It is my firm belief that this is all good. You can also look at it from the RP stance and see it as it would take a lot of skill and work to do this. Controlled overload on top of everything else that you as a pilot are doing. Go back and read the entire thread or else don't post because you are not up to speed. I think it is safe to say this is my thread now. I am just joking. I agree with most of what you said. I just hate seeing yet another time sink put in which I think is just a bit too long for a feature like this.
Abye Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:26:00 - [354] Thermodynamics is mostly a pvp skill. Extending webber or disruptor range for 1 or 2 cycles can make or break a fight. Getting 2 faster volleys out of your guns won't help a bit at killing the ratblob in a mission. I agree that EM5 is too steep for a new char, and since I rarely fly amarr ships it was waaaay back in my "things to learn list". At least it is useful, unlike surveying 5 which was required in the first version of salvaging. ___ Inappropriate signature. Please do not use this signature. Email us for more information -Eldo ([email protected])
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:27:00 - [355] But... that's EVE.. It has always been like this and is what keeps the game going... _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:28:00 - [356] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 20/06/2007 19:23:17 Quote: Like I said in an earlier post about 2,000 pages ago, in the time it takes to train EM 5, I could almost be trained for a Hac instead. Then I'd say you'd be pretty dumb to train for thermodynamics when you could get HAC instead. They added bombs to the game, yet I don't see anyone complaining about making bombers easier to train for or bombs easier to use.. Just because thermodynamics is new and cool sounding doesn't mean its going to be handed to you. Its an advantage, just like any other skill, its up to you to decide which skill will give the most advantage per hour of training and then train that skill, not what skill is newest or the new fad or wahtever. Quote: I agree with most of what you said. I just hate seeing yet another time sink put in which I think it just a bit too long for a feature like this. Well, if you see someone sporting overheating you should laugh and say "HAHA you wasted 2 weeks on soemthing notw orth it, while I trained <Insert some sweet skill here> so I have a huge advantage over you" and then proceed to turn them to space dust. That is the optimistic way to look at it I guess. Only time will tell if it is worth it though.
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:42:00 - [357] FINALLY after 13 pages and a locked topic... _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Mica Swanhaven	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:44:00 - [358] Unlike T2 guns T2 hardeners or anything else t2 heat doesn't have an other way of doing it faction guns are better than t2 but that don't take a lvl 5 skill I would understand if this wasn't advertised as "Come on play eve! there is heat" Also unless there is more of T3 feel to heat which by the way makes no sense :P I for one am not looking forward to introducing people to eve and when they ask "what is those little green things above my modules?" nd all I can say is "well that's heat, but you can't use that until you train your learning skills to lvl 4 and EM to lvl 5 which will take you 25 days" you people shouldn't forget when you start eve a rank 3 skill takes 30 days yo lvl 5 nor should you forget that learning skills actually don't equal into a time sink so please no flame there There seems to be skills that take different lvls of the termo skill... so why not make heat a rank 8 skill that only needs em3 or 4? or a rank 10 skill even
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:46:00 - [359] Originally by: sesanti FINALLY after 13 pages and a locked topic... what? finally? spam? are you losing your mind or just being uniforative
Drykor Minmatar Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:52:00 - [360] This thread is getting old :/ prereq 4 or 5, I don't care, it's the whining of this community that really bothers me. You should have to work for your things, it gives you a sense of accomplishment. Yes it is a 'timesink' but so is every damn skill. If you want a leveled playfield where everyone has equal chances, go play a first person shooter. There is no reason why such an advanced thing like heat should be made available to everyone straight away. (And no I don't have it trained and won't train it in a while. I shouldn't have to mention this but otherwise someone will say 'oh look it's a vet, of course he doesn't mind about the req')
adriaans Amarr Interstellar StarShipWrights Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:53:00 - [361] it's fine as it is... com on only takes 12 days for energy management 5 anyways...the rest you should have had for ages anyways... and even so, these are useful skills that you should get anyhow --sig-- Knowledge is power!
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:56:00 - [362] Originally by: Mica Swanhaven Unlike T2 guns T2 hardeners or anything else t2 heat doesn't have an other way of doing it faction guns are better than t2 but that don't take a lvl 5 skill I would understand if this wasn't advertised as "Come on play eve! there is heat" Also unless there is more of T3 feel to heat which by the way makes no sense :P I for one am not looking forward to introducing people to eve and when they ask "what is those little green things above my modules?" nd all I can say is "well that's heat, but you can't use that until you train your learning skills to lvl 4 and EM to lvl 5 which will take you 25 days" you people shouldn't forget when you start eve a rank 3 skill takes 30 days yo lvl 5 nor should you forget that learning skills actually don't equal into a time sink so please no flame there There seems to be skills that take different lvls of the termo skill... so why not make heat a rank 8 skill that only needs em3 or 4? or a rank 10 skill even That is a good point about how they are advertising Heat and splashing it all over the UI whether you have the skills for it or not. We who have been playing awhile know better but it is pretty deceiving to a noob who wants to try it and can't get his Civilian shield booster to overheat and then finds out it will be months before he will ever be able to use the feature. Those noobs who don't understand how things work and what kind of time commitments this game takes are going to feel left out because it is on their UI but they can't use it.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:59:00 - [363] Originally by: adriaans it's fine as it is... com on only takes 12 days for energy management 5 anyways...the rest you should have had for ages anyways... and even so, these are useful skills that you should get anyhow it takes me 12 days I've got about 10 friends that would love eve if you could walk around all of them are gamers but they just want immersion they love the idea of permi-death but it won't take them 12 days to train it goes down like this Older players won't care 1 year player better not whine about a 12 day skill new players will have to stare at a stupid UI for months this is not a T2 item it's a feature to game play so I can understand where people are coming form it's not salvaging where if you didn't have survey 5 it would still be a new salvage button on every wreck faction stuff doesn't need lvl 5 skills so can we have faction heat? lol well I'm rdy to be ignored
Mica Swanhaven	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:01:00 - [364] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Mica Swanhaven Unlike T2 guns T2 hardeners or anything else t2 heat doesn't have an other way of doing it faction guns are better than t2 but that don't take a lvl 5 skill I would understand if this wasn't advertised as "Come on play eve! there is heat" Also unless there is more of T3 feel to heat which by the way makes no sense :P I for one am not looking forward to introducing people to eve and when they ask "what is those little green things above my modules?" nd all I can say is "well that's heat, but you can't use that until you train your learning skills to lvl 4 and EM to lvl 5 which will take you 25 days" you people shouldn't forget when you start eve a rank 3 skill takes 30 days yo lvl 5 nor should you forget that learning skills actually don't equal into a time sink so please no flame there There seems to be skills that take different lvls of the termo skill... so why not make heat a rank 8 skill that only needs em3 or 4? or a rank 10 skill even That is a good point about how they are advertising Heat and splashing it all over the UI whether you have the skills for it or not. We who have been playing awhile know better but it is pretty deceiving to a noob who wants to try it and can't get his Civilian shield booster to overheat and then finds out it will be months before he will ever be able to use the feature. Those noobs who don't understand how things work and what kind of time commitments this game takes are going to feel left out because it is on their UI but they can't use it. yup :) and like above I agree with the following "older players should not be whining about having to train the skill" those players sound lazy :) it's time to check character creation to see if any race gets EM lvl 4 at creation thus being unfair to everyone else
Drykor Minmatar Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:02:00 - [365] If you're going to play Eve for the heat function, you're quite a tard.
Mica Swanhaven	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:04:00 - [366] Originally by: Drykor If you're going to play Eve for the heat function, you're quite a tard. who said anything about playing for heat? it's about new players not even knowing about it and when they log in the tutorail tells them nothing about random buttons on thier UI gasp! has the tutorial even have the right pictures in it?
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:09:00 - [367] Originally by: Drykor If you're going to play Eve for the heat function, you're quite a tard. A guy on a trial account who knows nothing about the game but heard beforehand about some of the features such as Heat is a tard? When i first started this game, i didn't even know their were alliances. I knew about corps. What attracted me to the game was I heard the ships can shoot at each other...lol So I don't think it is too far fetched that someone would join EvE because they thought Heat sounded cool. It is a part of combat after all.
Mica Swanhaven	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:11:00 - [368] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Drykor If you're going to play Eve for the heat function, you're quite a tard. A guy on a trial account who knows nothing about the game but heard beforehand about some of the features such as Heat is a tard? When i first started this game, i didn't even know their were alliances. I knew about corps. What attracted me to the game was I heard the ships can shoot at each other...lol So I don't think it is too far fetched that someone would join EvE because they thought Heat sounded cool. It is a part of combat after all. I stand corrected :)
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:16:00 - [369] Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 20/06/2007 20:15:34 Quote: you people shouldn't forget when you start eve a rank 3 skill takes 30 days yo lvl 5 nor should you forget that learning skills actually don't equal into a time sink And you shouldn't forget that EVE already gives new players like a month of skills free to begin with now.. Hell, I started with like 10k SP :P And about a trial char hearing heat and thinking cool.. hows that different than someone making a trial account cause they heard of carriers with tons of fighters that you can deploy and they want to play one of those? Its no different. Just cause it seems high end to us doesn't mean it is to new players. Quote: So I don't think it is too far fetched that someone would join EvE because they thought Heat sounded cool. It is a part of combat after all. Oh, and another thing, THE SKILL COSTS 4.3 MILLION ISK so new players won't be buying it anyway, it costs as much as a cruiser, and if I recall when I started, it took me a long time to simply afford to fly a cruiser, so who'd buy a skillbook for a skill that isn't incredibly useful for new players that costs that much..?
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:16:00 - [370] Originally by: Mica Swanhaven Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Drykor If you're going to play Eve for the heat function, you're quite a tard. A guy on a trial account who knows nothing about the game but heard beforehand about some of the features such as Heat is a tard? When i first started this game, i didn't even know their were alliances. I knew about corps. What attracted me to the game was I heard the ships can shoot at each other...lol So I don't think it is too far fetched that someone would join EvE because they thought Heat sounded cool. It is a part of combat after all. I stand corrected :) I just mean think about if you were looking for a new MMO and heard about this game where you fly spaceships and do cool things with them like over heat your guns to hit harder or faster. Of course that alone wouldn't get me to play but it doesn't hurt.
qantua gnartians Gallente Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:18:00 - [371] Edited by: qantua gnartians on 20/06/2007 20:17:02 Originally by: Avon No, it effects everyone equally. No-one had the pre-reqs gifted upon them, either people have already invested the time, or they will have to. No-one is getting a "leg up" here, nor should they. No vet used 2 weaks of training to get heat thats the cold fact, youre just making up after ratioanalisations, and casting shadows. People is getting a leg for making a completely unrelated decission, thats what your defending. Please take a real stand on the issue of wry heat needs to be a specialisation. Heat is not a new module its a part of a UI redesign, just like the added type column to the overview that i did not have to train for, actually i dont think the overview really is ment for noobs so lets nerf, it with a couple of random lvl 5, idd go for preduction efficiency lvl 5, an overall wery usefull skill, that is really a mush have right . I hereby represents myself and noone but myself, please dont make my corp or aliance responsible for my foolis
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:19:00 - [372] Quote: I just mean think about if you were looking for a new MMO and heard about this game where you fly spaceships and do cool things with them like over heat your guns to hit harder or faster. It also has engineering 5 as a req, which takes what, 2 weeks as a newb? They're not going to be able to use it whether you lower req to 4 anyway, let alone the isk cost of the skill. Your point about trial and new chars is completely and entirely moot. :P
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:19:00 - [373] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 20/06/2007 20:15:34 Quote: you people shouldn't forget when you start eve a rank 3 skill takes 30 days yo lvl 5 nor should you forget that learning skills actually don't equal into a time sink And you shouldn't forget that EVE already gives new players like a month of skills free to begin with now.. Hell, I started with like 10k SP :P And about a trial char hearing heat and thinking cool.. hows that different than someone making a trial account cause they heard of carriers with tons of fighters that you can deploy and they want to play one of those? Its no different. Just cause it seems high end to us doesn't mean it is to new players. Quote: So I don't think it is too far fetched that someone would join EvE because they thought Heat sounded cool. It is a part of combat after all. Oh, and another thing, THE SKILL COSTS 4.3 MILLION ISK so new players won't be buying it anyway, it costs as much as a cruiser, and if I recall when I started, it took me a long time to simply afford to fly a cruiser, so who'd buy a skillbook for a skill that isn't incredibly useful for new players that costs that much..? do carriers stare at you in the face with a big pilot carrier now button that you can't use??? NO learning skills cost 4.5 mil and I got those in the frist month and now even those per req were lowered to allow newer players 32.452% faster sp trainging or something like that
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:21:00 - [374] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Quote: I just mean think about if you were looking for a new MMO and heard about this game where you fly spaceships and do cool things with them like over heat your guns to hit harder or faster. It also has engineering 5 as a req, which takes what, 2 weeks as a newb? They're not going to be able to use it whether you lower req to 4 anyway, let alone the isk cost of the skill. Your point about trial and new chars is completely and entirely moot. :P 2 weeks and 2-3 months is a big differnce also most new accounts start with that skill at lvl 3 or 4 now your point is mute and again learning skills that most players get in the frist month are 4.5 mil no one is saying make it easy for new players but make it plausable and have a rank 1 skill that needs lvl 5
Mica Swanhaven	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:23:00 - [375] Originally by: qantua gnartians Edited by: qantua gnartians on 20/06/2007 20:17:02 Originally by: Avon No, it effects everyone equally. No-one had the pre-reqs gifted upon them, either people have already invested the time, or they will have to. No-one is getting a "leg up" here, nor should they. No vet used 2 weaks of training to get heat thats the cold fact, youre just making up after ratioanalisations, and casting shadows. People is getting a leg for making a completely unrelated decission, thats what your defending. Please take a real stand on the issue of wry heat needs to be a specialisation. Heat is not a new module its a part of a UI redesign, just like the added type column to the overview that i did not have to train for, actually i dont think the overview really is ment for noobs so lets nerf, it with a couple of random lvl 5, idd go for preduction efficiency lvl 5, an overall wery usefull skill, that is really a mush have right . thank you for wording without a whine or being a bully your point is wonderful new players would get ****ed if you could see npcs without a lvl 5 skill on your overview while older players would love this idea so keep quite just in case lol
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:24:00 - [376] Quote: do carriers stare at you in the face with a big pilot carrier now button that you can't use??? NO No, but slots 1-8 all stare me in the face saying 'Hah, you can't use all of us' :P Just cause you see it doesn't mean you gotta have it.. I see hot women walking around all over the place, I don't run around screaming 'nerf me!' when I walk down the street. And I can't believe you'd advocate spending 4.5 mil on training heat rather than spending the 4.5 mil you earned in a month on Learning skills.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:24:00 - [377] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Quote: I just mean think about if you were looking for a new MMO and heard about this game where you fly spaceships and do cool things with them like over heat your guns to hit harder or faster. It also has engineering 5 as a req, which takes what, 2 weeks as a newb? They're not going to be able to use it whether you lower req to 4 anyway, let alone the isk cost of the skill. Your point about trial and new chars is completely and entirely moot. :P I was just getting into a mellow mood and then you had to come along and say something stupid. I am not saying noobs will or should be able to use it. I am saying CCP is going to make them feel left out because they can't. They are advertising the feature and it is all over the UI whether you have the skills for it or not. I swear..lol you can't even make a passing remark here without some idiot trying to start a fight over it.
Alz Shado Ever Flow FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:25:00 - [378] What you say: Quote: Lower the requirements, think of the noobs! What I hear: Quote: Lower the requirements, I don't have those skills yet! What you say: Quote: Don't lower the requirements, it's a benefit for veterans! What I hear: Quote: Don't lower the requirements, I've got the skills and you don't, neener!
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:28:00 - [379] Originally by: Alz Shado What you say: Quote: Lower the requirements, think of the noobs! What I hear: Quote: Lower the requirements, I don't have those skills yet! What you say: Quote: Don't lower the requirements, it's a benefit for veterans! What I hear: Quote: Don't lower the requirements, I've got the skills and you don't, neener! Haha, thats entirely what its about too.. I don't have the skills yet but I've been meaning to learn EM 5 and just haven't had a reason to until now. As soon as sig analysis 5 is done i'll start EM5 :P
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:46:00 - [380] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Quote: I just mean think about if you were looking for a new MMO and heard about this game where you fly spaceships and do cool things with them like over heat your guns to hit harder or faster. It also has engineering 5 as a req, which takes what, 2 weeks as a newb? They're not going to be able to use it whether you lower req to 4 anyway, let alone the isk cost of the skill. Your point about trial and new chars is completely and entirely moot. :P I was just getting into a mellow mood and then you had to come along and say something stupid. I am not saying noobs will or should be able to use it. I am saying CCP is going to make them feel left out because they can't. They are advertising the feature and it is all over the UI whether you have the skills for it or not. I swear..lol you can't even make a passing remark here without some idiot trying to start a fight over it. i call this point null, everything you see in a EVE add is out of the reach of a noob. and they are displayed to you just by undocking in the tutorial. You wont have any of them soon, or even close to soon, you wont afford them, some of them you wont ever afford. you SEE BS's on your first day, you see freighter, you see cruisers, CONSTANTLY. and you know what? EVENTUALLY you will have the skills to use it, just not right now. but you will still look at it everyday. CCP adds will still have titans(which 90% of us probably wont fly). If you dont realize that time in EVE determines what you can do in EVE, DESPITE WHAT YOU CAN SEE ON YOUR SCREEN EVERYDAY YOU PLAY, then the possibility exists that you are wasting your money. The first thing ive said to all the friends who ive turned on to this game is "if you cant wait around for things, dont play" They all love the game, and will patiently await the day that they can over heat their mods and destroy millions of isk without EVER loosing a ship. I am forced, by the games complexity, to assume, that no matter your personality, you must have some brains, to even be here, as this game does not lend well to stupidity. This is not a console game, it requires thought about nearly every action you make, where mistakes are critical. My point? You probably were aware in the first 24 hours that it would be awhile before you got to do some of the cooler things (cloaking, cyno, mine in an exhumer, even clone jump). Im pretty sure most of the new players will fall from the same "smart" tree as the rest of us, and will realize that they will see MANY THINGS they cant do yet, but they will all realize that eventually, they will be able to. EVEN THOUGH IT STARES THEM IN THE FACE EVERY DAY.
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:48:00 - [381] well I already have EM 4 and ESO 5. EM 5 seemed like somewhat too useless skill to me. ESO brings from 0.8 to 0.75 which is in fact 6.6% bonus, while EM is 1.2->1.25 which is only 4.17% bonus for 3 times greater training time... but it needs maxing anyway so now I have a reason. however I am sure this will get nerfed as it was already done with salvaging and tractor beam skill reqs... and because even unlike salvaging and tractor beam, the heat features are built into UI and can't be hidden when impossible to use... maybe that's what CCP should do instead of prereq nerf.
Mica Swanhaven	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:48:00 - [382] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Quote: do carriers stare at you in the face with a big pilot carrier now button that you can't use??? NO No, but slots 1-8 all stare me in the face saying 'Hah, you can't use all of us' :P Just cause you see it doesn't mean you gotta have it.. I see hot women walking around all over the place, I don't run around screaming 'nerf me!' when I walk down the street. And I can't believe you'd advocate spending 4.5 mil on training heat rather than spending the 4.5 mil you earned in a month on Learning skills. true I wouldn't spend it on that so I got pwnd in that repect but your other point, I can turn off the other high solts and my ship doesn't have them in the fitting window either what if your ship had 8 high solts and you couldn't use them with a high slot skill?
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:50:00 - [383] Wow, another whine thread grows massively huge in a single day... Noobs should be able to use heat? Why? No they shouldn't. You don't like the skill time, don't learn it. Let people who are willing to wait learn it. Are you whining now because there's a tiny green bar above some modules? Really? Wow. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:52:00 - [384] Quote: what if your ship had 8 high solts and you couldn't use them with a high slot skill? Well, considering that that skill would be extraordinarily important, I'd spend as long as it took to get it maxed. I wouldn't care if the skill was there, everyone else had to (or has to) train the skill to use them, so I wouldn't be singled out. But heat is hardly of extreme importance, in my opinion, but its still cool, hence I'll train EM5 as soon as I finish my current skill.
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:52:00 - [385] Quote: what if your ship had 8 high solts and you couldn't use them with a high slot skill? Well, considering that that skill would be extraordinarily important, I'd spend as long as it took to get it maxed. I wouldn't care if the skill was there, everyone else had to (or has to) train the skill to use them, so I wouldn't be singled out. But heat is hardly of extreme importance, in my opinion, but its still cool, hence I'll train EM5 as soon as I finish my current skill.
Mica Swanhaven	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:54:00 - [386] Originally by: Frug Wow, another whine thread grows massively huge in a single day... Noobs should be able to use heat? Why? No they shouldn't. You don't like the skill time, don't learn it. Let people who are willing to wait learn it. Are you whining now because there's a tiny green bar above some modules? Really? Wow. yes I am at least, the tiny green bar above my module makes it hard to tell if a module is on or not it also is there even when I can't use it get rid of it I say damn stupid buttons I can't use noobs shouldn't be able to use it but they should be able to in 4-6 weeks while training useful skills
Mica Swanhaven	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:54:00 - [387] Originally by: Frug Wow, another whine thread grows massively huge in a single day... Noobs should be able to use heat? Why? No they shouldn't. You don't like the skill time, don't learn it. Let people who are willing to wait learn it. Are you whining now because there's a tiny green bar above some modules? Really? Wow. yes I am at least, the tiny green bar above my module makes it hard to tell if a module is on or not it also is there even when I can't use it get rid of it I say damn stupid buttons I can't use noobs shouldn't be able to use it but they should be able to in 4-6 weeks while training useful skills
Mr Greetings	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:55:00 - [388] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Quote: what if your ship had 8 high solts and you couldn't use them with a high slot skill? Well, considering that that skill would be extraordinarily important, I'd spend as long as it took to get it maxed. I wouldn't care if the skill was there, everyone else had to (or has to) train the skill to use them, so I wouldn't be singled out. But heat is hardly of extreme importance, in my opinion, but its still cool, hence I'll train EM5 as soon as I finish my current skill. very true but your right heat isn't important so why does it take so much to use a stupid skill oh I know! I'll never train it for months! ... what the **** is it doing on my UI when I don't want to use it
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:55:00 - [389] Originally by: Alz Shado What you say: Quote: Lower the requirements, think of the noobs! What I hear: Quote: Lower the requirements, I don't have those skills yet! What you say: Quote: Don't lower the requirements, it's a benefit for veterans! What I hear: Quote: Don't lower the requirements, I've got the skills and you don't, neener! That's what I saw too....and actually did :). Unfortunately this is a whine/flame thread regardless of whose side you are on.
Mr Greetings	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:55:00 - [390] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Quote: what if your ship had 8 high solts and you couldn't use them with a high slot skill? Well, considering that that skill would be extraordinarily important, I'd spend as long as it took to get it maxed. I wouldn't care if the skill was there, everyone else had to (or has to) train the skill to use them, so I wouldn't be singled out. But heat is hardly of extreme importance, in my opinion, but its still cool, hence I'll train EM5 as soon as I finish my current skill. very true but your right heat isn't important so why does it take so much to use a stupid skill oh I know! I'll never train it for months! ... what the **** is it doing on my UI when I don't want to use it
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:55:00 - [391] Originally by: Alz Shado What you say: Quote: Lower the requirements, think of the noobs! What I hear: Quote: Lower the requirements, I don't have those skills yet! What you say: Quote: Don't lower the requirements, it's a benefit for veterans! What I hear: Quote: Don't lower the requirements, I've got the skills and you don't, neener! That's what I saw too....and actually did :). Unfortunately this is a whine/flame thread regardless of whose side you are on.
Treelox Amarr Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:48:00 - [392] Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. But yet they will be advertising it, to attract new players.... The also advertise carriers, dreads, mom's and titans, so by your logic every one who is a few months old should be able to fly those too? -- http://www./sigs/Treelox/sig.png [orange]signature removed (change the zombie gagging sig) - please email us (with the signature URL) if you want to know why - Pirlouit([email protected]
Juggernaut Kell Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:00:00 - [393] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:46:37 Originally by: Juggernaut Kell Actually I think they should lower the requirement, then these whining idiots will never train that skill up to lvl 5 and when I run across them I will be just a lil better then them skillwise and hence have an advantage over them all. morons 4tw Actually, I would train it anyway. When I feel like it. But.....Yes 5% more Capacitor is the deciding factor in every single fight in this game. No other skills or factors matter. If you were flying a Frigate, you would take out my Battleship because you have Energy Management 5 and I only have level 4. Idiot. The difference is that this one skill effects every single ship you fly. There is a small subset of skills in the skill tree that do this, and all of them are worth training to level 5 as early as possible. Often the problem here is that the "young" players are so bitter about the perceived advantage that the "old" players have, that they view any advice as an insult. It is a shame really. I think he just summed it up nicely, but obviously you had no clue what I was talking about. (which is apparent from your response and example) So I will let the rest of the posters here decide who is 'more' of an idiot. and.............be seein ya..............
Cpt Branko Partisan Warfare Ltd.	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:07:00 - [394] Originally by: Treelox The also advertise carriers, dreads, mom's and titans, so by your logic every one who is a few months old should be able to fly those too? No. However, heat is an integral part of the game now, and it equally benefits a noobship, a frig, and whatever, just like every support skill for ships. Saying "you need the skill anyway", well, OK, you'll want the skill to maximise your performance anyway, eventually. However, for a new player, you'll want to maximise a number of other skills (like fitting, primarily) before you even think of maximising a rank three skill. And advertising being able to fly a titan/mothership is different then advertising that you can overheat your modules. Everyone in their right mind doesn't expect to be able to fly the large ships right off the bat. Few will think "i need to train for months before I can overheat my modules". And, anyway, the game is much more fun for someone who's starting out if he doesn't have to get a load of skills to 5 just to use features/modules that he needs to compete.
Ari Chu Bughunter Industries	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:09:00 - [395] I'm very surprised this thread exploded so quickly - but here's my NOOB input. I don't like the skil requirements... not because I don't have the prereq's: but because the skill has invaded my UI. It'll be a year before I can use all these buttons which are affecting the way I play the game currently. To be honest - I wasn't looking forward to the introduction of Heat when I first heard of it, and it's implementation isn't one that is likely to ever positively influence my game. --- "The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers.
Nyx Nylarr	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:10:00 - [396] Speaking as a nOOb with a pilot just a bit over 1M SPs, I gotta say I find these requirements rather low. I'd like to up them even more a bit, like Science V as requirement. I mean, come on, I got 1+M SPs and am lacking a mere 4 levels in EM to acquire this skill? Which, according to the devs is supposed to be some kind of gamble you may win (or not) to survive? It is quite clearly not supposed to be the "OWTH, my pizza is ready, die faster, bugger, now I give you heat overdrive" function. Whine all you want about not being to be able to likely acquire all skills during a trial period or faster, in this very case it's just shameful. If you really think you cannot live&survive without Thermodynamics, then in my humble opinion you're either inept or must be a lousy pilot. Full stop. Whining about the o-so-mighty new function not being instantly available will get you nowhere, except perhaps on a very low tier of people's estimations of yourself.
scabbsssjr Gallente M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:10:00 - [397] IMHO heat is fine. Its the anchoring lvl 5 I have a problem with. Who the crap needs anchoring for anything other than mobile large t2 bubbles? --------------------------- Originally by: Ductoris At this rate I'm going to ask for a BOB sub-forum.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:53:00 - [398] Edited by: James Duar on 21/06/2007 00:53:32 God, training EM5 does not make Heat a unique specialization. You know what it does do? Deletes EM 5 as a unique specialization. EM 5 is now a pre-requisite of an entire set of game mechanics that can be applied to every module. If Heat is remotely useful, then EVERYONE will train it. The god damn 'vets' complaining that they've already invested the training time don't get it - EM 5 as a pre-req for something that may become a "required" skill cheapens that SP investment, because everyone will go for it. You don't gain any unique advantages by being one of the few who trained it as SP level X. The only reason people with EM 5 advocate heat staying at that pre-req is because they hope it'll keep everyone else out and they'll gain their "I WIN" button over much of the playerbase. Wrong. As everyone's pointed out - it's not that long. If it's such a good advantage, then everyone will have it and you'll be rather unspecial, ununique and unspecialized. Like everything else in this game, the % based stat boosters are proportional compared to the ship class you fly. Engineering 5 isn't truly useful till you're almost in Battlecruisers/Battleships because it's a % boost to Powergrid - you get more absolute benefit when you start off with more grid. Similarly, EM 5 is more useful on larger ships, where as Energy Systems Operation (I might have picked the wrong name - the % cap recharge boost skill) is going to be more useful on frigates overall etc. etc. Heat, is a whole new bag of tricks due to the way it works, but whatever benefits it confers, there is no reason for it to be EM 5 when it is such a general purpose skill. Yes EM 5 is general, but it competes with other skills compared to just EM 4. Except if Heat magically turns out to be useful and it becomes an absolute must have, and a worthless timesink as opposed to a specialization one can elect to have.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:04:00 - [399] Originally by: scabbsssjr IMHO heat is fine. Its the anchoring lvl 5 I have a problem with. Who the crap needs anchoring for anything other than mobile large t2 bubbles? Both prerequisites need to be changed to 4, or CCP needs to go and put the ui back to the way it was, and put the pos guns back inside of the shields. The 'older' players are just whining because they benefit from it. It give them another step above everybody else, and makes it harder for newer player to compete. While the 'older' players will be getting an edge in combat & pos warfare, all of the younger guys will be getting nerfed. Need to siege the pos of a small corp, no sweat, they cant use the guns anyway. Now the guns are stupid & vulnerable, so without the skill the pos is even less defensible that it was pre rev2. And with heat the only ones that will be using it will be the older players that already have lots of SPs. They will be able to use the skills months before the new players. ANd if the new players decide to train it in lieu of the high training time they will fall behind in other skills. LONG TRAINING TIMES NERFS YOUNGER PLAYERS CCP Stop the carebear whine, Fix Cloaking
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:09:00 - [400] Edited by: Anehra on 21/06/2007 02:10:06 Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Anehra It's fine as it is. I have a 2 years old That's where i stopped reading Nice, you just lost all the respect you could've had. I put some time into a brief and constructive post, if you can't read that, you just define yourself as a troll and a whiner. "It's fine as it is. I have a 2 years old pure Amarr pilot with Energy Management 4" if you had bothered. You were whining about old players saying it's all fine and dandy with a level 5 requirement? I just presented a semi-young character that doesn't have it. And the other section in my post listed 'useless' level 5 skills that I trained (alot less useful than energy management mind you).
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:11:00 - [401] Originally by: Anehra Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Anehra It's fine as it is. I have a 2 years old That's where i stopped reading Nice, you just lost all the respect you could've had. I put some time into a brief and constructive post, if you can't read that, you just define yourself as a troll and a whiner. No, you opened by declaring you were an older character. Given that this debate centers rather heavily on blindly giving an advantage to older characters and widening the gap between new and old players more, you might like to choose a stronger point to open on then "I've been playing this game for X years..."
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:32:00 - [402] Originally by: James Duar Originally by: Anehra Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Anehra It's fine as it is. I have a 2 years old That's where i stopped reading Nice, you just lost all the respect you could've had. I put some time into a brief and constructive post, if you can't read that, you just define yourself as a troll and a whiner. No, you opened by declaring you were an older character. Given that this debate centers rather heavily on blindly giving an advantage to older characters and widening the gap between new and old players more, you might like to choose a stronger point to open on then "I've been playing this game for X years..." That's exactly what it is about. He is saying older players shrug this off and say it's nothing as they probably have the skill. I started off by stating (in the first sentence even) that I don't even have it with my 2 years old character - i.e. his argument is a big generalisation and flawed. Especially as I followed up by pointing out that character is Amarr, one of the things people pointed out here, that it's 'most useful for Amarr', or while training for capital ships. It was to give him some perspective to the background. In fact, I had some semi-compassion when writing the post and tried to write it friendly and open and constructive, as in most cases I think the newer players are way behind the olders now (unlike when I started, I was behind but now after 2 years those 3+ doesn't seem that far away anymore). It was not even a long post. He post on public forums and obviously will get replies. Alot of flames even. And when he then replies by flaming a constructive/helpful post, that unfortunately not agrees with him but at least tries to be helpful, he clearly shows his attitude problems. It's displayed in many posts after mine as well. I agree with many that say that EM5 is not a necessary skill, not even for Amarr. Is it necessary for heat? I say yes. If EM5 had a high training modifier I'd say no. Now it's perfectly reasonable and logic. It goes along the line of many other things. Heat will be required for PvP. If you train it or not, will be the difference between the fighter and the carebear. Thus it needs some investment, some effort put, to get that upperhand. It shouldn't be free and easy accisible. Still, it should be in reach for new characters. Now this post got long, I tried to avoid it with my first (and the 2nd, to which you replied), but just to mention it - this chara is not my first, in fact it's my 3rd. What was the first level 5 skill (ignore learning) I trained, which I deemed was the only necessary skill to get? Drones 5. And I'm not even a race where drones are that important. Which was the 2nd? Scout drone operation 5. Which will be next? Probably Engineering, Electronics and a few other similar. After that? Nothing is really necessary then. It is just requirements to access better stuff, or to excel/specialise in a subject. I.e. bc5, I rank this very high, gives you access to command ships as well as a very powerful cheap alternative for both PvP and PvE. However, it's not necessary. Heat/EM5? Just along the same line. It'll not be necesssary but it'll give you enough edge to make it 'important'. EM5 is the 'sacrifice' you do to get it. And as I said, EM5 is not very hard not takes very long time to train. Getting cruiser 5 (which most will do and should do) will take alot longer and in many cases will be less needed, directly; but incredibly powerful, indirectly. I wrote a book. Hope you read it. Hope the OP stops flaming people that post constructive, grows up, grabs his balls and pulls on a flameproof vest. Obviously he can't take the heat. ;) Not even when it's friendly fire..
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:40:00 - [403] None of what you said has any bearing on whether EM 5 is a sensible pre-req for something as general as Heat. EM 5 is a choice you make to specialize. By making it a pre-req for a very general skill, that specialization is gone. Also, Drones is not a level 5 skill and the fact you have a 3rd character means you're min/maxing it. Pre-req skills for something that may or may not be an absolute necessity generally results in a huge reduction in the value of the pre-req because everyone else has it. And the only value of this is to increase the time it takes a new character to be able to do fun things in the game, and thus increasing the divide between the new and the old.
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:54:00 - [404] Originally by: James Duar None of what you said has any bearing on whether EM 5 is a sensible pre-req for something as general as Heat. EM 5 is a choice you make to specialize. By making it a pre-req for a very general skill, that specialization is gone. Also, Drones is not a level 5 skill and the fact you have a 3rd character means you're min/maxing it. Pre-req skills for something that may or may not be an absolute necessity generally results in a huge reduction in the value of the pre-req because everyone else has it. And the only value of this is to increase the time it takes a new character to be able to do fun things in the game, and thus increasing the divide between the new and the old. Pre-reqs? Let me know why Damnation, Eos, etc need "Long Range Targetting 5". That's very logical for ships that use fairly short range and can carry a couple of gang assist modules, right? They're really sniping ships.. Also logistics 5. I can't make it out if the logic fails that you need that to drive them (as they might actually be used for boosting others), or if the failed logic is that the Eos actually can be a fairly potent solo killer (irony). There's so many examples and so little space. "level 5 skill" = train the skill to level 5. Not the training modifier. Min/maxing? No clue what the hell you are talking about. I'm just saying that if I had 1 or 39458034958 characters, the only skill(s) I'd get for them all is Drones 5 and Scout Drop Operation 5, as t2 light/medium drones is a 'requirement' for any ship from cruiser size and up. The last point you make is interesting, as this is guesstimations and not science. I agree that there is certain risks and there might or not be in certain ways. But either way, cruiser 5 is something everyone will end up do fairly soon and it'll take longer than EM5, and most likely cruiser 5 will give less bonus as it'll be pre-req for alot of ships that doesn't have that massive bonus from having Cruiser 5.. see my point? EM5 is a 'logical' skill, as the comments from devs about Heat being a slight boost for Amarr, and it's also a fairly fast level5-skill, it doesn't take much time to train, compared to many others. It's also not a level 1 modifier that would be done in 3-4 days or something similar. It is an investment, for pvpers, for them to choose if they find it worth the investment or not. A 5 months old character in a caracal will not find that heat would do much difference to a 2 years and 5 months old character in a hac. In a caracal vs caracal it might just do, or in a gang. If everyone had this skill, the ones that wanted to invest training in it 'lost' time vs those that didn't do it. My Amarr character is getting this asap. This character is not (she will do, eventually). Of course he should get an upperhand vs her from having access to it. Of course she shouldnt have it. Because she didn't think of it as important as he did. Get the point?
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:15:00 - [405] it's still part the UI it's not a ship you can't fly yet that would be like letting everyplayer stare at any ship they wanted in the hanger but then not let them undock no you have get the skill to see the new ship this is not a ship or a module it's the same as clicking on the speed bar to get a better transversal for max dmg based on player skill termaldynamics should be like navigation it makes it better than it use to be to the point where not having it is bad but it should not be a specail skill to do something stuck on your UI I will keep bring up this point so hopefully CCP sees that players don't want to pay for 3 months to use the UI
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:16:00 - [406] Originally by: Treelox Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. But yet they will be advertising it, to attract new players.... The also advertise carriers, dreads, mom's and titans, so by your logic every one who is a few months old should be able to fly those too? but they can't fly them you can fly in a ship with the Heat it's not like they should let you fly titans but not let you use them wait what that doesn't make any sence exactly
Liliane Woodhead Intergalactic Charwomen	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:20:00 - [407] I'm singing: Just train or whine, dudeldidumm didaaa .... If someone needs a dancing lesson i possibly can help. But remember it takes time to be a perfect dancer.Some learn slower, the other ones have it in their blood.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:21:00 - [408] Originally by: Anehra Originally by: James Duar Originally by: Anehra Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Anehra It's fine as it is. I have a 2 years old That's where i stopped reading Nice, you just lost all the respect you could've had. I put some time into a brief and constructive post, if you can't read that, you just define yourself as a troll and a whiner. No, you opened by declaring you were an older character. Given that this debate centers rather heavily on blindly giving an advantage to older characters and widening the gap between new and old players more, you might like to choose a stronger point to open on then "I've been playing this game for X years..." That's exactly what it is about. He is saying older players shrug this off and say it's nothing as they probably have the skill. I started off by stating (in the first sentence even) that I don't even have it with my 2 years old character - i.e. his argument is a big generalisation and flawed. Especially as I followed up by pointing out that character is Amarr, one of the things people pointed out here, that it's 'most useful for Amarr', or while training for capital ships. It was to give him some perspective to the background. In fact, I had some semi-compassion when writing the post and tried to write it friendly and open and constructive, as in most cases I think the newer players are way behind the olders now (unlike when I started, I was behind but now after 2 years those 3+ doesn't seem that far away anymore). It was not even a long post. He post on public forums and obviously will get replies. Alot of flames even. And when he then replies by flaming a constructive/helpful post, that unfortunately not agrees with him but at least tries to be helpful, he clearly shows his attitude problems. It's displayed in many posts after mine as well. I agree with many that say that EM5 is not a necessary skill, not even for Amarr. Is it necessary for heat? I say yes. If EM5 had a high training modifier I'd say no. Now it's perfectly reasonable and logic. It goes along the line of many other things. Heat will be required for PvP. If you train it or not, will be the difference between the fighter and the carebear. Thus it needs some investment, some effort put, to get that upperhand. It shouldn't be free and easy accisible. Still, it should be in reach for new characters. Now this post got long, I tried to avoid it with my first (and the 2nd, to which you replied), but just to mention it - this chara is not my first, in fact it's my 3rd. What was the first level 5 skill (ignore learning) I trained, which I deemed was the only necessary skill to get? Drones 5. And I'm not even a race where drones are that important. Which was the 2nd? Scout drone operation 5. Which will be next? Probably Engineering, Electronics and a few other similar. After that? Nothing is really necessary then. It is just requirements to access better stuff, or to excel/specialise in a subject. I.e. bc5, I rank this very high, gives you access to command ships as well as a very powerful cheap alternative for both PvP and PvE. However, it's not necessary. Heat/EM5? Just along the same line. It'll not be necesssary but it'll give you enough edge to make it 'important'. EM5 is the 'sacrifice' you do to get it. And as I said, EM5 is not very hard not takes very long time to train. Getting cruiser 5 (which most will do and should do) will take alot longer and in many cases will be less needed, directly; but incredibly powerful, indirectly. I wrote a book. Hope you read it. Hope the OP stops flaming people that post constructive, grows up, grabs his balls and pulls on a flameproof vest. Obviously he can't take the heat. ;) Not even when it's friendly fire.. you said... not long to train... as in your full learning skills and +5 implants?? yeah tell that to the new player a rank 3 lvl 5 skill doesn't take long mor3 like it takes 30 days lvl 0-5
insidion	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:26:00 - [409] They should drop the regs on the EM5 down to EM4 for two reasons. Firstly, it's integrated into your interface, so it should be somewhat easily accessible. Secondly, vets (esp cap pilots) don't need even more of an ability to tank/gank, new players do.
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:45:00 - [410] this post amazes me. So is the problem that you have to see it in your UI, or that you cant use the damn heat? I wonder if all the posters here realize how many 2-3 year old players DIDNT train EM5, simply because they didnt think the final level was worth it. Don't believe me? try trolling the alts for sale, take a look at how many DONT have that skill, AND have 2+year ages on em. You'd think its the end of the world "Oh woe is me, i cant do things a 3 year player does" BFD, get over it. The OP here violently attacks anybody who dose not side with him, ignoring every fact presented. He is backed by people calling it a "timesink"...wtf do you think BS 5 is? 60 days for what? a slight boost. I wonder why he bothered to post at all, unless he wanted to prove his lack of debating skills by ignoring facts, and attacking people who try to make a point. In the end, like everything else in this game, im sure CCP will fold, and "dumb" it down, the nerf cries will reach the heavans, and the great smiting nerf bolt will come down, then EVE will be full of people burning up thier mods and crying for the heat effect to do less damage. One thing you all need to adjust to, EvE is all about the haves n the have nots. you have trained the skills, or you have not, you will train the skills, or you will not. This game isnt supposed to be fair, its supposed to reward those who work hard at it. If your willing to take the time to train the skill, regardless of what you think of it being a timesink (which is utterly ****** when you look at some of the longer train skills), you will reap the rewards. only 2 things will make this thread better: a moderator saying "its not changing, deal with it for once instead of ***ing", and CCP saying that EVERY patch from now on will involve increasingly difficult to aquire skills. cause i gotta tell you, that if i had been playing for 3 years, n some guy who started a month ago came along and could do even a portion of what i could do, i would simply find a new game to play. If the damn UI bothers you so much, start a thread about that to get noticed, but dont use it as a platform to adjust the requirements for a skill, it just sounds assanine when presented in this particular ridiculous argument.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:48:00 - [411] Originally by: Juggernaut Kell Originally by: Avon Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:46:37 Originally by: Juggernaut Kell Actually I think they should lower the requirement, then these whining idiots will never train that skill up to lvl 5 and when I run across them I will be just a lil better then them skillwise and hence have an advantage over them all. morons 4tw Actually, I would train it anyway. When I feel like it. But.....Yes 5% more Capacitor is the deciding factor in every single fight in this game. No other skills or factors matter. If you were flying a Frigate, you would take out my Battleship because you have Energy Management 5 and I only have level 4. Idiot. The difference is that this one skill effects every single ship you fly. There is a small subset of skills in the skill tree that do this, and all of them are worth training to level 5 as early as possible. Often the problem here is that the "young" players are so bitter about the perceived advantage that the "old" players have, that they view any advice as an insult. It is a shame really. I think he just summed it up nicely, but obviously you had no clue what I was talking about. (which is apparent from your response and example) So I will let the rest of the posters here decide who is 'more' of an idiot. and.............be seein ya.............. I will agree on one thing. He summed it up much better than you did. Maybe in the future you should let him post for you and do the thinking. Anyone who throws out some blanket drivel such as "I will kill all these whiners because I have EM5 and they only have 4." really shouldn't post anyway. The bigger idiot you ask? That would be you sir.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:54:00 - [412] Originally by: Grath Telkin this post amazes me. So is the problem that you have to see it in your UI, or that you cant use the damn heat? a "timesink"...wtf do you think BS 5 is? 60 days for what? a slight boost. I wonder why he bothered to post at all, unless he wanted to prove his lack of debating skills by ignoring facts, and attacking people who try to make a point. If the damn UI bothers you so much, start a thread about that to get noticed, but dont use it as a platform to adjust the requirements for a skill, it just sounds assanine when presented in this particular ridiculous argument. it's both you can't use it and you have to stare at it but you can't use it but it's right there bs 5? yes a time sink for sure for a 5% increase if bs 5 allowed battleships to do some brand new super fuction like fly with a joystick and use some new super warp or other game feature then that would be different Bombs equal new module you have to train to use new weapons ECM brust is a module Heat is not an item new players shouldn't have a stupid extra three bars they can't use on there interface I can use heat so I'm happy but I'm sure my friends are goig to be confused by CCP were all game devs ourselfs more or less and go to digipen www.digipen.edu yes nintendo school, whatever the point is you don't make people pay to cove by clicking ok heres an example in rts games you can move normally or attack move what if attack took a time sink? even when you can see the atack move button that doesn't seem like good game devoplment to me so in other words get rid of the UI untill it can be used and people won't get ****ed at having things that don't help them I bet I'm not making any sence I ust want to find the best of both worlds lol make everyone happy
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:55:00 - [413] Originally by: MotherMoon you said... not long to train... as in your full learning skills and +5 implants?? yeah tell that to the new player a rank 3 lvl 5 skill doesn't take long mor3 like it takes 30 days lvl 0-5 do your homework before you flame, with just your learning skills done, and no implants its 18 days, with a modest set of implants (+2) its down to 16 days n change, +3's will drop it to 15 days. so essentially, a newer alt, with its learning skills done, could have EM5 in 18 days, why is that so friggin hard moon, your acting like its training cruiser's to 5. yet another nerf crier who wont study before crying, just "nerf it its too hard", tyvfm i like the game hard. I CANT USE HEAT, I WANT TO, AND LIKE EVERY FRICKIN BODY ELSE, I WILL TRAIN IT. i will take my 2 weeks, n i will make my UI useful.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:57:00 - [414] Originally by: Grath Telkin Originally by: MotherMoon you said... not long to train... as in your full learning skills and +5 implants?? yeah tell that to the new player a rank 3 lvl 5 skill doesn't take long mor3 like it takes 30 days lvl 0-5 do your homework before you flame, with just your learning skills done, and no implants its 18 days, with a modest set of implants (+2) its down to 16 days n change, +3's will drop it to 15 days. so essentially, a newer alt, with its learning skills done, could have EM5 in 18 days, why is that so friggin hard moon, your acting like its training cruiser's to 5. yet another nerf crier who wont study before crying, just "nerf it its too hard", tyvfm i like the game hard. I CANT USE HEAT, I WANT TO, AND LIKE EVERY FRICKIN BODY ELSE, I WILL TRAIN IT. i will take my 2 weeks, n i will make my UI useful. what new alt has maxed out learning skills?
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.21 04:00:00 - [415] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Juggernaut Kell Originally by: Avon Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:46:37 Originally by: Juggernaut Kell Actually I think they should lower the requirement, then these whining idiots will never train that skill up to lvl 5 and when I run across them I will be just a lil better then them skillwise and hence have an advantage over them all. morons 4tw Actually, I would train it anyway. When I feel like it. But.....Yes 5% more Capacitor is the deciding factor in every single fight in this game. No other skills or factors matter. If you were flying a Frigate, you would take out my Battleship because you have Energy Management 5 and I only have level 4. Idiot. The difference is that this one skill effects every single ship you fly. There is a small subset of skills in the skill tree that do this, and all of them are worth training to level 5 as early as possible. Often the problem here is that the "young" players are so bitter about the perceived advantage that the "old" players have, that they view any advice as an insult. It is a shame really. I think he just summed it up nicely, but obviously you had no clue what I was talking about. (which is apparent from your response and example) So I will let the rest of the posters here decide who is 'more' of an idiot. and.............be seein ya.............. I will agree on one thing. He summed it up much better than you did. Maybe in the future you should let him post for you and do the thinking. Anyone who throws out some blanket drivel such as "I will kill all these whiners because I have EM5 and they only have 4." really shouldn't post anyway. The bigger idiot you ask? That would be you sir. and to this guy, i cant use heat, this alt is barely 4 months old, so what, damn, i have to train another skill, big ******* deal, it goes on the list, what is the big problem, all the people who want it droped just sound absolutely horrid and lazy. didnt you know what kind of game you were paying for before you started to play it?
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.21 04:02:00 - [416] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Grath Telkin Originally by: MotherMoon you said... not long to train... as in your full learning skills and +5 implants?? yeah tell that to the new player a rank 3 lvl 5 skill doesn't take long mor3 like it takes 30 days lvl 0-5 do your homework before you flame, with just your learning skills done, and no implants its 18 days, with a modest set of implants (+2) its down to 16 days n change, +3's will drop it to 15 days. so essentially, a newer alt, with its learning skills done, could have EM5 in 18 days, why is that so friggin hard moon, your acting like its training cruiser's to 5. yet another nerf crier who wont study before crying, just "nerf it its too hard", tyvfm i like the game hard. I CANT USE HEAT, I WANT TO, AND LIKE EVERY FRICKIN BODY ELSE, I WILL TRAIN IT. i will take my 2 weeks, n i will make my UI useful. what new alt has maxed out learning skills? all the ones who want to have decent training times, its the first thing most people direct you to do if you ask any questions. i have 2 accounts, both under 1 year, neither able to use heat, so what, i was smart enough to grasp what the learning skills did for me, so i trained them, now, all my training times are significantly lower because of it.
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.21 04:03:00 - [417] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Grath Telkin Originally by: MotherMoon you said... not long to train... as in your full learning skills and +5 implants?? yeah tell that to the new player a rank 3 lvl 5 skill doesn't take long mor3 like it takes 30 days lvl 0-5 do your homework before you flame, with just your learning skills done, and no implants its 18 days, with a modest set of implants (+2) its down to 16 days n change, +3's will drop it to 15 days. so essentially, a newer alt, with its learning skills done, could have EM5 in 18 days, why is that so friggin hard moon, your acting like its training cruiser's to 5. yet another nerf crier who wont study before crying, just "nerf it its too hard", tyvfm i like the game hard. I CANT USE HEAT, I WANT TO, AND LIKE EVERY FRICKIN BODY ELSE, I WILL TRAIN IT. i will take my 2 weeks, n i will make my UI useful. what new alt has maxed out learning skills? and nobody max's them out that i know of, 4 n 4 are usually standable, 5 n 4 are optimal
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.21 04:09:00 - [418] Originally by: Grath Telkin Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Grath Telkin Originally by: MotherMoon you said... not long to train... as in your full learning skills and +5 implants?? yeah tell that to the new player a rank 3 lvl 5 skill doesn't take long mor3 like it takes 30 days lvl 0-5 do your homework before you flame, with just your learning skills done, and no implants its 18 days, with a modest set of implants (+2) its down to 16 days n change, +3's will drop it to 15 days. so essentially, a newer alt, with its learning skills done, could have EM5 in 18 days, why is that so friggin hard moon, your acting like its training cruiser's to 5. yet another nerf crier who wont study before crying, just "nerf it its too hard", tyvfm i like the game hard. I CANT USE HEAT, I WANT TO, AND LIKE EVERY FRICKIN BODY ELSE, I WILL TRAIN IT. i will take my 2 weeks, n i will make my UI useful. what new alt has maxed out learning skills? and nobody max's them out that i know of, 4 n 4 are usually standable, 5 n 4 are optimal your 4 months in so yes you have them you miss my point it takes 4 months to get there it's beeing used to advertise to new players to play EvE the only thing in this expansion to do so actully :P I posted my math go back up I'm not saying your wrong about learning skills, just that your wrong its only 2 weeks for a new skill to use heat for everyone untill you get to that point
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.21 04:19:00 - [419] Originally by: Grath Telkin Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Juggernaut Kell Originally by: Avon Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 20/06/2007 17:46:37 Originally by: Juggernaut Kell Actually I think they should lower the requirement, then these whining idiots will never train that skill up to lvl 5 and when I run across them I will be just a lil better then them skillwise and hence have an advantage over them all. morons 4tw Actually, I would train it anyway. When I feel like it. But.....Yes 5% more Capacitor is the deciding factor in every single fight in this game. No other skills or factors matter. If you were flying a Frigate, you would take out my Battleship because you have Energy Management 5 and I only have level 4. Idiot. The difference is that this one skill effects every single ship you fly. There is a small subset of skills in the skill tree that do this, and all of them are worth training to level 5 as early as possible. Often the problem here is that the "young" players are so bitter about the perceived advantage that the "old" players have, that they view any advice as an insult. It is a shame really. I think he just summed it up nicely, but obviously you had no clue what I was talking about. (which is apparent from your response and example) So I will let the rest of the posters here decide who is 'more' of an idiot. and.............be seein ya.............. I will agree on one thing. He summed it up much better than you did. Maybe in the future you should let him post for you and do the thinking. Anyone who throws out some blanket drivel such as "I will kill all these whiners because I have EM5 and they only have 4." really shouldn't post anyway. The bigger idiot you ask? That would be you sir. and to this guy, i cant use heat, this alt is barely 4 months old, so what, damn, i have to train another skill, big ******* deal, it goes on the list, what is the big problem, all the people who want it droped just sound absolutely horrid and lazy. didnt you know what kind of game you were paying for before you started to play it? Nope no clue what kind of game this is. I do know it has a bunch of little children for a player base who fill their posts with cuss words when someone has the opposite view on a topic. Anyway, so just because you have an alt which is 4 months old and doesn't have Heat that is suppose to validate what you are saying and i should just shut up and listen to you? Oh and how is not wanting to have to wait an extras two weeks for something that really shouldn't be such a high req in the first place being lazy? Did you know I can sleep and STILL be lazy while my skills are training? You people make training skills sound like it takes some sort of work effort. It doesn't.
Voltaeis Gemini	Posted - 2007.06.21 05:10:00 - [420] Originally by: Tyr Vaantau Originally by: Na'Kunni Can't we make Thermodynamic's only require Engineering level 5 + Energy Management/science level 4 I find this rather odd, as the noob's (I have quite a nice few mil SP tucked under the belt, so don't class myself as a total noob) already have a hard time to keep up with the vet's, and now with heat here. They can pwn even more given they know what they're doing. I see/hope this will be sorted out in the future, but for now look's like im gonna have to train it to keep inline, and once again go off my goal, AGAIN.... whine over. Discuss once you all come out of game!! What are the current requirements? This discussion topic is just dumb.. its a level playing field for all.. if u cant use a skill now then train for it. The topic poster needs to do what every other player in the game does and prioritise the need for a given skill over the need to train something else.. Well done CCP dont give an inch to whiners like this.. Eve is a rich gaming environ because player DO need to make choices in developing there character.. Not all skills should be easy to learn..
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.21 05:18:00 - [421] Originally by: Voltaeis Gemini Originally by: Tyr Vaantau Originally by: Na'Kunni Can't we make Thermodynamic's only require Engineering level 5 + Energy Management/science level 4 I find this rather odd, as the noob's (I have quite a nice few mil SP tucked under the belt, so don't class myself as a total noob) already have a hard time to keep up with the vet's, and now with heat here. They can pwn even more given they know what they're doing. I see/hope this will be sorted out in the future, but for now look's like im gonna have to train it to keep inline, and once again go off my goal, AGAIN.... whine over. Discuss once you all come out of game!! What are the current requirements? This discussion topic is just dumb.. its a level playing field for all.. if u cant use a skill now then train for it. The topic poster needs to do what every other player in the game does and prioritise the need for a given skill over the need to train something else.. Well done CCP dont give an inch to whiners like this.. Eve is a rich gaming environ because player DO need to make choices in developing there character.. Not all skills should be easy to learn.. than take out the unneeded UI for people that can't use it? if my car which is an automatic had a manual control stick shift as welll as the automatic I would be confused b ecause one of them would seem to do nothing untill I trained to figured it out ahhhhh
Honneamise Amarr Indomita Classis Ion Core	Posted - 2007.06.21 07:15:00 - [422] Edited by: Honneamise on 21/06/2007 07:14:02 15 pages of thread !!! LOL i would be happy to see an "official" comment from CCP
Ozstar Naughty 40 Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.21 07:33:00 - [423] Its fine. Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia It¦s still very ackward reading threads about 'how to ride eris'
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.21 07:45:00 - [424] Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 21/06/2007 07:44:20 Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: FireFoxx80 It would be nice that if you didn't have the skills, the buttons didn't appear on the UI. ^^ Particularly as it adds a level of complexity to new players. We're headed towards "Go-Johnny-Go-Go-Go-Go" here. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Vir Hellnamin Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.06.21 07:49:00 - [425] You should be able to use ISKs to buy skills. ;) (there always should be high end skill, and Thermo is one of them... with T3 ships - if the rumours for T3 ships being more resilent to Heat are true.) -- V.H. "Entering MH means instant death. It's worse than 0.0. Even the asteroids shoot back." - Alex Harumichi, Gradient [GRD]
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.21 08:14:00 - [426] Almost every ship I fly, uses cap. And almost all of these die when I run out of cap. Thus Energy Management 5 (along with energy systems operation 5) is an important skill. shrug thermodynamics isn't a must have game option. Therefore I don't see a problem with _only_ a rank 3 needed to train it. Especially as it's a rank 3 you should be thinking about getting anyway.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.21 08:28:00 - [427] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 21/06/2007 08:30:55 Originally by: James Lyrus Almost every ship I fly, uses cap. And almost all of these die when I run out of cap. Thus Energy Management 5 (along with energy systems operation 5) is an important skill. shrug thermodynamics isn't a must have game option. Therefore I don't see a problem with _only_ a rank 3 needed to train it. Especially as it's a rank 3 you should be thinking about getting anyway. I don't understand this sheep mentality that just because Energy Management 5 is an "important skill" that it validates it being the req for Heat. I honestly don't see what one thing has to do with the other. Maybe someone with half a brain can explain it but I doubt it. All I keep reading from these muppets is "Well you need EM 5 to PvP and it is a good skill to have and stuff ect {yawn}" That is true but what does it have to do with Heat? I forgot what all the Heat reqs are and I am not in the game to check. I know I just need EM 5 though. I think it is : Engineering 5 Science 4 Energy Management 5 Then: Thermodynamics. Dropping EM to 4 would still leave a considerable timesink for a new player. It wouldn't be like every noob coming into the game would have Heat on his trial acct. Engineering 5 alone would take a new player at least a week {probably more} to get trained and that is even with factoring in the 800K in SPs they get for free upon creation.
Cpt Branko Partisan Warfare Ltd.	Posted - 2007.06.21 09:31:00 - [428] Why is the heat interface (along with the horrendous new module buttons, the only thing I dislike with the new UI) there for everyone, then? It's really like teasing people. You never have to, say, train T2 guns. But at least you don't have a sign "nyah, nyah, you're a noob, you can't use T2" on the UI that you essentially have with heat. Especially rude considering the dev blogs advocated it as something that will 'help' new players ;P And the "work for it" crowd are really the same as the WoW people and their "grind to lvl 60" and "work for it" attitude ;P Should the new graphics, when they come out, only be available for people who train "Graphics modifications V"? I say, they should! ;)
Angor The JORG Corporation FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.21 09:35:00 - [429] Why dont people post this stuff in the developments forum... Dev's actually pay attention to that Section!!!!!!!!!!!! And I have 50mil sp and i cant use the bloody things either... your not alone. Same as salvagers when they first came out... i still cant use them either and they reduced the skill requirements within a few weeks lol. GAME DEVELOPMENT FORUM 4TW!!!! _______________________________ Your signature image exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo
Awox Minmatar QUANT Corp. Southern Connection	Posted - 2007.06.21 09:36:00 - [430] Originally by: Cpt Branko Why is the heat interface (along with the horrendous new module buttons, the only thing I dislike with the new UI) there for everyone, then? It's really like teasing people. You never have to, say, train T2 guns. But at least you don't have a sign "nyah, nyah, you're a noob, you can't use T2" on the UI that you essentially have with heat. Especially rude considering the dev blogs advocated it as something that will 'help' new players ;P And the "work for it" crowd are really the same as the WoW people and their "grind to lvl 60" and "work for it" attitude ;P Should the new graphics, when they come out, only be available for people who train "Graphics modifications V"? I say, they should! ;) Agreed. CCP refusing to make the HUD configurable in anyway is a slap in the face every time they make something this annoying. For my purposes my gun panel could be half the size it is now. - AwoxEveUtils (EVELauncher, ShiftWindows, ScratchPad) script for AutoIt scripting language!
Na'Kunni Amarr Null Horizon	Posted - 2007.06.21 09:48:00 - [431] Originally by: James Lyrus Almost every ship I fly, uses cap. And almost all of these die when I run out of cap. Thus Energy Management 5 (along with energy systems operation 5) is an important skill. shrug thermodynamics isn't a must have game option. Therefore I don't see a problem with _only_ a rank 3 needed to train it. Especially as it's a rank 3 you should be thinking about getting anyway. But it's not just a rank 3 skill you need to 5, it's basically a rank 4 skill to 5, to use heat, like many others are saying too, this was aimed at newer to "help" them, they have the buttons teasing you when your in-game... People may call us whiners, but the anti-whiners your just as bad... seriously were not even asking for a big thing, this is minor compared to the other whiner nerf this, nerf that requests.. but yet its gone into a 15 page thread??? ya really think this is jus the views of a selected few... there's also been another thread about this, but seeing as this 1 has progressed at a faster rate, it's migrated to here. shrug (yes i can do that aswell), and no, just because a skill is rank 3, i shouldn't be thinking about training it..
Sinnead Bachmann	Posted - 2007.06.21 11:54:00 - [432] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus I'm not a noob, and I neither have EM 5 nor plan to train it in the immediate future. Then you shouldn't plan on using heat either. What's so hard about it? Suck it up and train one level V skill, not only will you get yer heat, but you will get some extra cap too. Quit whinging and play the game as presented. These constant "I, personally, do not see the point of..." threads get awfully bloody tired. STFU and PLAY.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.21 12:21:00 - [433] as in... play EvE? with a stupid UI I can't use?
Zaqar	Posted - 2007.06.21 12:29:00 - [434] Really, if they'd originally released the skill with a pre-req of level 4, would anyone at all even think to suggest that it should be raised to level 5? People just like having something that others don't.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:03:00 - [435] Originally by: Zaqar Really, if they'd originally released the skill with a pre-req of level 4, would anyone at all even think to suggest that it should be raised to level 5? People just like having something that others don't. Dude, if they would have had NO reqs other than the Thermodynamic skill, people would have assumed that it is a "base feature" that everyone is suppose to use {or not if you choose} and no one would have said a word about it. Especially since it is currently on the UI whether you have the skills trained or not. In other words you are 100% correct.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:24:00 - [436] Originally by: Zaqar Really, if they'd originally released the skill with a pre-req of level 4, would anyone at all even think to suggest that it should be raised to level 5? People just like having something that others don't. An intresting argument. Yes I guess you would be correct, however, one can also say that if a HAC had a pre-req of cruiser 4, would anyone at all even think to suggest that it should be raised to lvl5? I have EM lvl5 anyway, (yeah, abaddons force you to do that) but to be honest, everybody should have this skill, unless all you do is fly 100% passive tanked ships forever. That and also Evasive manuvering lvl5 are key skills. But in my personal opinion, I think that while a few people can use it just now, it may go the same route as Tractor beams and Salvagers and have the requirements droped. -- Billion Isk Mission
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:37:00 - [437] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Zaqar Really, if they'd originally released the skill with a pre-req of level 4, would anyone at all even think to suggest that it should be raised to level 5? People just like having something that others don't. An intresting argument. Yes I guess you would be correct, however, one can also say that if a HAC had a pre-req of cruiser 4, would anyone at all even think to suggest that it should be raised to lvl5? I have EM lvl5 anyway, (yeah, abaddons force you to do that) but to be honest, everybody should have this skill, unless all you do is fly 100% passive tanked ships forever. That and also Evasive manuvering lvl5 are key skills. But in my personal opinion, I think that while a few people can use it just now, it may go the same route as Tractor beams and Salvagers and have the requirements droped. A Hac is an entire class of ships and a T2 one at that. Heat is a pretty minor thing in comparison don't you think? In other words, yeah, I would expect to have to train out the wahzoo for Hacs. Very bad example.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:50:00 - [438] Request denied. ___ Junkie Beverage: i use your tears to cyno in my laughter
Danzig256k Caldari Mortal Devastating Kin	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:55:00 - [439] try thinking about it this way, ya can never have enough Cap, right? just about every combat pilot, pvp or pve needs cap to survive. i was going to train that 5th dot anyway, so it's a double win in my book :)
Sinnead Bachmann	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:56:00 - [440] Originally by: MotherMoon as in... play EvE? with a stupid UI I can't use? If it is truly the case that you are unable to use the UI then I sugggest it is not the UI that is stupid. (Barring colour blindness of course.) The discussion here is not about the UI however, but about the skills required to overload modules. I maintain that the requirements as stated are just fine.
Whalesaver mega mining corporation Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:12:00 - [441] Having played the game for 2.5 years, I have EM5 so I would like to think my viewpoint is relatively objective. I believe there should be no pre-requisites for heat. Why? It is available on every ship and is not a module. It's not as though you need a pre-requisite skill to use your scanner, or to warp, so why to use heat? Sure seed skills for using it more effectively, but it has the capacity to be a game changing mechanic, why exclude 95% of the playing population from using it? ----------------------- Doesn't shoot first Will ask questions later And enjoys a nice cup of tea
Crissy Gallente Freedom-Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:32:00 - [442] I don't just get why ppl are whining about having energy management at lvl 5 to use heat. Heat is going to be used very little anyways as a last desperate act to save your ship and maybe own someone before they kill you if the odds are greatly against you. Energy management 5 is a great skill for everyone to have. The more cap you have the better and some races need the extra cap moew then others. Sig. Concept Version 1.3 Solider of "Freedom-Technologies"
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:50:00 - [443] Originally by: Whalesaver Having played the game for 2.5 years, I have EM5 so I would like to think my viewpoint is relatively objective. I believe there should be no pre-requisites for heat. Why? It is available on every ship and is not a module. It's not as though you need a pre-requisite skill to use your scanner, or to warp, so why to use heat? Sure seed skills for using it more effectively, but it has the capacity to be a game changing mechanic, why exclude 95% of the playing population from using it? Yes I agree. What is funny though is CCP wants more players to try PvP and take more risks such as going to low sec and moving into 0.0. However, with the way they implemented this, I personally am not going to do any more PvP until I get my Energy Management 5 trained because I am not giving some kid living in his mom's basement yet another advantage. I will just sit in high sec running lvl 4 missions over and over making a nice fortune with no risks until I get around to training it.
qantua gnartians Gallente Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:40:00 - [444] 15 pages so far and still noone has taken the time to think their position over, and have come up with an actual reason to wry heat needs to be restricted content, or wry it needs to be tied to that skill in particular and not it's own specialisation path. the whole well it's not a specialisation since EM 5 is a must have is just defensive retorics, that does only confirm that pouple dont see a great need for it to be restricted, from anyone. Im not nesseryly against having heat as a specialisation if someone could point a benefit to it being tied to theat exact existing path of specialisation. I hereby represents myself and noone but myself, please dont make my corp or aliance responsible for my foolis
Achuramale	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:43:00 - [445] Originally by: qantua gnartians 15 pages so far and still noone has taken the time to think their position over, and have come up with an actual reason to wry heat needs to be restricted content, or wry it needs to be tied to that skill in particular and not it's own specialisation path. the whole well it's not a specialisation since EM 5 is a must have is just defensive retorics, that does only confirm that pouple dont see a great need for it to be restricted, from anyone. Im not nesseryly against having heat as a specialisation if someone could point a benefit to it being tied to theat exact existing path of specialisation. I haven¦t read the whole thread but your post is just as pointless because you could say samething about absolutely everything in EVE. Why restrict anything ?
Sinnead Bachmann	Posted - 2007.06.21 18:13:00 - [446] Edited by: Sinnead Bachmann on 21/06/2007 18:12:28 It's simple really, it is that way because the Dev's decided it should be. No other logic is required. Heat overload is an effect the dev's wish to be available to a smaller group of players than the whole player base. How do I know this to be true? Simple, I look at the skill requirements the dev's have set. The only thing stopping everyone from doing it is the Opportunity Cost Now, when I was an utter noob the idea of training a 45 day skill seemed horrifying. You see, there were so many other things I could do with those 45 days - ie train up the Learning and core skills for my chosen path. Now that I am less of a noob and have spent some time training some of those 'core' skills to L5 the idea of a 45 day skill is pretty innocuous. So, it seems you have a choice: Spend the time now and forgo all the other things you could have done with the training time required and gain the ability to overload your modules. Or don't and don't. Dumbing down the skill reqs isn't the way to go.
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.21 19:56:00 - [447] Originally by: Sinnead Bachmann Edited by: Sinnead Bachmann on 21/06/2007 18:12:28 It's simple really, it is that way because the Dev's decided it should be. No other logic is required. Heat overload is an effect the dev's wish to be available to a smaller group of players than the whole player base. How do I know this to be true? Simple, I look at the skill requirements the dev's have set. The only thing stopping everyone from doing it is the Opportunity Cost Now, when I was an utter noob the idea of training a 45 day skill seemed horrifying. You see, there were so many other things I could do with those 45 days - ie train up the Learning and core skills for my chosen path. Now that I am less of a noob and have spent some time training some of those 'core' skills to L5 the idea of a 45 day skill is pretty innocuous. So, it seems you have a choice: Spend the time now and forgo all the other things you could have done with the training time required and gain the ability to overload your modules. Or don't and don't. Dumbing down the skill reqs isn't the way to go. total agreement, this game is supposed to represent a level unreached by other MMO's. I will say that perhaps they overdid the UI a bit, but the live dev blog said that wasnt the final product. On that note, i really dont think the UI dislike is reason enough to dumb down the skills just so everybody can use it.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.21 20:26:00 - [448] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 21/06/2007 20:28:06 Originally by: Grath Telkin Originally by: Sinnead Bachmann Edited by: Sinnead Bachmann on 21/06/2007 18:12:28 It's simple really, it is that way because the Dev's decided it should be. No other logic is required. Heat overload is an effect the dev's wish to be available to a smaller group of players than the whole player base. How do I know this to be true? Simple, I look at the skill requirements the dev's have set. The only thing stopping everyone from doing it is the Opportunity Cost Now, when I was an utter noob the idea of training a 45 day skill seemed horrifying. You see, there were so many other things I could do with those 45 days - ie train up the Learning and core skills for my chosen path. Now that I am less of a noob and have spent some time training some of those 'core' skills to L5 the idea of a 45 day skill is pretty innocuous. So, it seems you have a choice: Spend the time now and forgo all the other things you could have done with the training time required and gain the ability to overload your modules. Or don't and don't. Dumbing down the skill reqs isn't the way to go. total agreement, this game is supposed to represent a level unreached by other MMO's. I will say that perhaps they overdid the UI a bit, but the live dev blog said that wasnt the final product. On that note, i really dont think the UI dislike is reason enough to dumb down the skills just so everybody can use it. How does making the reqs high and creating another time sink "represent a level unreachable by other MMOs?" People continue to make fancy and important sounding statements like this but they lack substance and are never backed up by any facts. Any MMO can put in a time sink. The high reqs the Devs decided to attach to Heat is nothing special or spectacular or "genre changing."...lol
CampyloBacter Gallente Chlamydia Online	Posted - 2007.06.21 20:41:00 - [449] Originally by: Grath Telkin this post amazes me. So is the problem that you have to see it in your UI, or that you cant use the damn heat? I wonder if all the posters here realize how many 2-3 year old players DIDNT train EM5, simply because they didnt think the final level was worth it. Don't believe me? try trolling the alts for sale, take a look at how many DONT have that skill, AND have 2+year ages on em. You'd think its the end of the world "Oh woe is me, i cant do things a 3 year player does" BFD, get over it. The OP here violently attacks anybody who dose not side with him, ignoring every fact presented. He is backed by people calling it a "timesink"...wtf do you think BS 5 is? 60 days for what? a slight boost. I wonder why he bothered to post at all, unless he wanted to prove his lack of debating skills by ignoring facts, and attacking people who try to make a point. In the end, like everything else in this game, im sure CCP will fold, and "dumb" it down, the nerf cries will reach the heavans, and the great smiting nerf bolt will come down, then EVE will be full of people burning up thier mods and crying for the heat effect to do less damage. One thing you all need to adjust to, EvE is all about the haves n the have nots. you have trained the skills, or you have not, you will train the skills, or you will not. This game isnt supposed to be fair, its supposed to reward those who work hard at it. If your willing to take the time to train the skill, regardless of what you think of it being a timesink (which is utterly ****** when you look at some of the longer train skills), you will reap the rewards. only 2 things will make this thread better: a moderator saying "its not changing, deal with it for once instead of ***ing", and CCP saying that EVERY patch from now on will involve increasingly difficult to aquire skills. cause i gotta tell you, that if i had been playing for 3 years, n some guy who started a month ago came along and could do even a portion of what i could do, i would simply find a new game to play. If the damn UI bothers you so much, start a thread about that to get noticed, but dont use it as a platform to adjust the requirements for a skill, it just sounds assanine when presented in this particular ridiculous argument. /signed perhaps one of the best written and most succinct posts I have ever read in these fora. Thank you sir- for bringing some sanity to this asylum.
qantua gnartians Gallente Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation	Posted - 2007.06.21 20:54:00 - [450] Edited by: qantua gnartians on 21/06/2007 21:02:26 Originally by: Sinnead Bachmann Edited by: Sinnead Bachmann on 21/06/2007 18:12:28 It's simple really, it is that way because the Dev's decided it should be. No other logic is required. So is just pure and blind belief in aoutority, you do know that those devs have made a lot of changes to eve over the time ajustiing just about averything. Originally by: Sinnead Bachmann Dumbing down the skill reqs isn't the way to go. Are we debating heat or general training time, i certainly dont want the general acess to T2 ships and modules dumbed down, it's just that the nature of heat is so much different from any module in the fact that CCP had rewrite the combat UI completly. Im not in any way oposed to 45days paths, thats a part of what makes the skill system so revarding. it¿s specificly heats status as neither module nor really independent specialisation, that makes me just dont get wry EM 5 makes sense in the contents. Actually the whole way to uncomplex implementation of the req's bother me, it just feels so much like an afterthought. Why cant heat be something thats there but grows with skills like guns, ships or scan probes(ccp added a basic probe with rev II) Why does everyone see heat as nothing different then da bomb or a new flashy t2 mod when it fored ccp to rewrite the combat UI for all, if thats the presumption yes just suck it an train for it, ill say drop em 5 and add some new rank 4 instead as pre req, but heat is not just a flashy t2 mod its an UI change. I hereby represents myself and noone but myself, please dont make my corp or aliance responsible for my foolis
CampyloBacter Gallente Chlamydia Online	Posted - 2007.06.21 20:55:00 - [451] Originally by: qantua gnartians 15 pages so far and still noone has taken the time to think their position over, and have come up with an actual reason to wry heat needs to be restricted content, or wry it needs to be tied to that skill in particular and not it's own specialisation path. the whole well it's not a specialisation since EM 5 is a must have is just defensive retorics, that does only confirm that pouple dont see a great need for it to be restricted, from anyone. Im not nesseryly against having heat as a specialisation if someone could point a benefit to it being tied to theat exact existing path of specialisation. BTW Gantua- the word you want is WHY not wry... the latter means something totally different.
qantua gnartians Gallente Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation	Posted - 2007.06.21 21:00:00 - [452] Edited by: qantua gnartians on 21/06/2007 21:01:00 Originally by: CampyloBacter BTW Gantua- the word you want is WHY not wry... the latter means something totally different. Thanks im not a native english speaker as you might have guessed, so i did not actually know that. I hereby represents myself and noone but myself, please dont make my corp or aliance responsible for my foolis
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.21 21:04:00 - [453] Originally by: CampyloBacter Originally by: Grath Telkin this post amazes me. So is the problem that you have to see it in your UI, or that you cant use the damn heat? I wonder if all the posters here realize how many 2-3 year old players DIDNT train EM5, simply because they didnt think the final level was worth it. Don't believe me? try trolling the alts for sale, take a look at how many DONT have that skill, AND have 2+year ages on em. You'd think its the end of the world "Oh woe is me, i cant do things a 3 year player does" BFD, get over it. The OP here violently attacks anybody who dose not side with him, ignoring every fact presented. He is backed by people calling it a "timesink"...wtf do you think BS 5 is? 60 days for what? a slight boost. I wonder why he bothered to post at all, unless he wanted to prove his lack of debating skills by ignoring facts, and attacking people who try to make a point. In the end, like everything else in this game, im sure CCP will fold, and "dumb" it down, the nerf cries will reach the heavans, and the great smiting nerf bolt will come down, then EVE will be full of people burning up thier mods and crying for the heat effect to do less damage. One thing you all need to adjust to, EvE is all about the haves n the have nots. you have trained the skills, or you have not, you will train the skills, or you will not. This game isnt supposed to be fair, its supposed to reward those who work hard at it. If your willing to take the time to train the skill, regardless of what you think of it being a timesink (which is utterly ****** when you look at some of the longer train skills), you will reap the rewards. only 2 things will make this thread better: a moderator saying "its not changing, deal with it for once instead of ***ing", and CCP saying that EVERY patch from now on will involve increasingly difficult to aquire skills. cause i gotta tell you, that if i had been playing for 3 years, n some guy who started a month ago came along and could do even a portion of what i could do, i would simply find a new game to play. If the damn UI bothers you so much, start a thread about that to get noticed, but dont use it as a platform to adjust the requirements for a skill, it just sounds assanine when presented in this particular ridiculous argument. /signed perhaps one of the best written and most succinct posts I have ever read in these fora. Thank you sir- for bringing some sanity to this asylum. Yes it is a great post except for the following. 1) Comparing the training time for Heat to the training time of a BS, Hac or any other high end ship class in this game is the ramblings of the idiotic. I shouldn't even have to explain why so i won't. 2) Where are these facts that he speaks of? Actually, most of the posts here are of the 12 year old "Stop whining, Suck it up..blah blah" variety. Saying "because I say so so shut up" doesn't qualify as a fact. 3) His "succient" post reaks of "I don't want the noobs having what i have." He even admits as much. But yeah...it is such a great post since it is a totally unbiased view and all.
Liu Kaskakka PAK	Posted - 2007.06.21 21:07:00 - [454] No, everyone has the pre-requisites anyway .. King Liu is RIGHT!!
Adam Weishaupt Minmatar Pyrrhus Sicarii Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.21 21:44:00 - [455] Seriously, no. This is what, 20 days of training with good Learning skills? And Engineering 5 is required for nearly everything anyway...Big frickin' deal. It's not a core mechanic nor do you NEED heat for anything. It's just there to spice things up. Leave it as it is, give people an incentive to train Energy Management 5, which they should do anyway.
Mr Greetings	Posted - 2007.06.21 21:47:00 - [456] Originally by: Adam Weishaupt Seriously, no. This is what, 20 days of training with good Learning skills? And Engineering 5 is required for nearly everything anyway...Big frickin' deal. It's not a core mechanic nor do you NEED heat for anything. It's just there to spice things up. Leave it as it is, give people an incentive to train Energy Management 5, which they should do anyway. if it's not a core mechanic why it on my UI? make it go away please. untill I have the skills
Sinnead Bachmann	Posted - 2007.06.21 21:57:00 - [457] Originally by: Mr Greetings if it's not a core mechanic why it on my UI? make it go away please. untill I have the skills You are not a core mechanic of these forums. Please go away.
Saori Rei Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.06.21 22:07:00 - [458] Though I think Heat unecessary, the requirements are just fine as they are. They are high enough that someone with good skill points can use it but low enough that a noob doesnt accidently destroy her prized modules >_>
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.21 22:48:00 - [459] Originally by: Saori Rei Though I think Heat unecessary, the requirements are just fine as they are. They are high enough that someone with good skill points can use it but low enough that a noob doesnt accidently destroy her prized modules >_> in 16 pages, i think everything asked of the "why" is nicely summed up here. I would address the UI in the dev forums, but as to why, this is a pretty good reason. a new player will not know when to use his heat, and when not to, and thus will likely fry mods on a near daily basis. To avoid this, perhaps CCP decided they wanted a bit of wind to have passed beneath newer players wings before they started baking mods, so that perhaps the new pilots would have better understanding of thier chosen ships abilities, and would less likely to instantly try to overheat a rack at every occasion. Yes, the current UI could use some tinkering, but that has nothing to do with this current post, which, is about the time it takes to get the skill. As to what it has to do with heat, i would read it like this: Heat is energy in your ship, thus you need engineering 5, and energy management 5 to properly know how to adjust the flow of this energy. Science just goes along with the "theme". In essence, to adjust the flow of energy in your ship, you must be a master of the energy in your ship. i know that no matter the post, many who are opposed to the training time simply will refuse to listen to reason, so they will ignore this, as they have many of the more sensible posts, but i have tried to bring it into a possible view you may understand
Susitna Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.21 23:10:00 - [460] Edited by: Susitna on 21/06/2007 23:10:56 I think the Energy Management to 5 is bit too much also. I think I read a dev comment somewhere I forget where that basically said Heat is intended to limit the effect of high Skill points in all battles. It is intended to give a lower SP pilot with good piloting skills a chance when engaged with high SP pilot. I could of read the comments wrong or misunderstood them. However, if the intent of heat is give a lower SP pilot a fighting chance, making energy management 5 a pre req is silly. I have been playing 6 months and have the skill at 4. I have not trained it to 5 because it takes awhile. A new player has many otheer skills that need to be to level 4 before they train this IMHO. Heat as implemented helps High SP players not low SP players. If that is the intent fine leave it. However, I and others think this game is not newb friendly. Gotta do training skills and now this just makes it more likely new players will just leave.
Teinyhr Minmatar United Systems Navy	Posted - 2007.06.21 23:26:00 - [461] Edited by: Teinyhr on 21/06/2007 23:25:20 Sheesh the energy management V is like 15 days (not really that much - there are many many skills that take a month or more) ------------------- Originally by: Smagd Besides, specialization is for insects.
Sinnead Bachmann	Posted - 2007.06.22 02:12:00 - [462] Edited by: Sinnead Bachmann on 22/06/2007 02:11:34 Originally by: qantua gnartians Originally by: Sinnead Bachmann It's simple really, it is that way because the Dev's decided it should be. No other logic is required. So is just pure and blind belief in aoutority, you do know that those devs have made a lot of changes to eve over the time ajustiing just about averything. WTF are you on? Blind belief in authority??? How about: an educated guess about dev intentions based on their actions. Have the devs tweaked and modified things in game? Yes. This is normal for this sort of thing, and one assumes that such changes were made after testing and impact assessment. ie: Dev's wanted some effect, implement a mechanism to bring that effect about, then tweak said mechanism if the results of implementation don't deliver the desired effect. This is the dev's controlling the direction their game takes. Does this give legitimacy to the nerf herders who want to dumb down a new skill simply because they don't want to have to work for a new ability? No. This thread is an attempt by whiny players to get things their way again. Once again: Adapt and overcome. STFU and play with what you are given or go build your own game.
Akiman	Posted - 2007.06.22 03:12:00 - [463] fk the heat imo! and he should be right...its in UI which means it should be a core skill.who asked for heat anyways -.- whatever...
Cpt Branko Partisan Warfare Ltd.	Posted - 2007.06.22 12:09:00 - [464] Originally by: Whalesaver Having played the game for 2.5 years, I have EM5 so I would like to think my viewpoint is relatively objective. I believe there should be no pre-requisites for heat. Why? It is available on every ship and is not a module. It's not as though you need a pre-requisite skill to use your scanner, or to warp, so why to use heat? Sure seed skills for using it more effectively, but it has the capacity to be a game changing mechanic, why exclude 95% of the playing population from using it? This is probably the best heat-related comment from the whole thread. Comparing Heat to the scanner, warp drive, in-built system scanner and such is much more valid then comparing heat to HACs/whatever.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.22 12:26:00 - [465] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 22/06/2007 12:28:07 Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Whalesaver Having played the game for 2.5 years, I have EM5 so I would like to think my viewpoint is relatively objective. I believe there should be no pre-requisites for heat. Why? It is available on every ship and is not a module. It's not as though you need a pre-requisite skill to use your scanner, or to warp, so why to use heat? Sure seed skills for using it more effectively, but it has the capacity to be a game changing mechanic, why exclude 95% of the playing population from using it? This is probably the best heat-related comment from the whole thread. Comparing Heat to the scanner, warp drive, in-built system scanner and such is much more valid then comparing heat to HACs/whatever. Actually, I have been saying the exact same thing through the entire thread. It should be implemented as a base feature for every ship. People saying noobs will burn up their modules should consider that same noob right now can wander into low sec and lose the entire ship so what is the difference? The key to protecting noobs from both of those pitfalls is to put that info into the tutorial so they know this stuff before they even get into the game. This game is risky even for a noob. People trying to pose as though they are concerned about new players are just using it as an excuse to keep the reqs for heat where they currently are. And yes, comparing training Heat to training up HaCs and Battleships is pretty stupid. I didn't realize the player base is this clueless.
Disco Flint Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.22 12:54:00 - [466] Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 22/06/2007 12:28:07 Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Whalesaver Having played the game for 2.5 years, I have EM5 so I would like to think my viewpoint is relatively objective. I believe there should be no pre-requisites for heat. Why? It is available on every ship and is not a module. It's not as though you need a pre-requisite skill to use your scanner, or to warp, so why to use heat? Sure seed skills for using it more effectively, but it has the capacity to be a game changing mechanic, why exclude 95% of the playing population from using it? This is probably the best heat-related comment from the whole thread. Comparing Heat to the scanner, warp drive, in-built system scanner and such is much more valid then comparing heat to HACs/whatever. Actually, I have been saying the exact same thing through the entire thread. It should be implemented as a base feature for every ship. People saying noobs will burn up their modules should consider that same noob right now can wander into low sec and lose the entire ship so what is the difference? The key to protecting noobs from both of those pitfalls is to put that info into the tutorial so they know this stuff before they even get into the game. This game is risky even for a noob. People trying to pose as though they are concerned about new players are just using it as an excuse to keep the reqs for heat where they currently are. And yes, comparing training Heat to training up HaCs and Battleships is pretty stupid. I didn't realize the player base is this clueless. The probing window is built into the scanner window as well. infact, iirc, the probing window is the first (1st!) tab and the no-skill system scanner only the second or third. Now, probing requires quite some SP to be done effectively, be it exploration probing or probing for players. I ask, no, I DEMAND the training time for these skills to be lowered since it's built into the UI!
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.22 13:12:00 - [467] Originally by: Disco Flint Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 22/06/2007 12:28:07 Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Whalesaver Having played the game for 2.5 years, I have EM5 so I would like to think my viewpoint is relatively objective. I believe there should be no pre-requisites for heat. Why? It is available on every ship and is not a module. It's not as though you need a pre-requisite skill to use your scanner, or to warp, so why to use heat? Sure seed skills for using it more effectively, but it has the capacity to be a game changing mechanic, why exclude 95% of the playing population from using it? This is probably the best heat-related comment from the whole thread. Comparing Heat to the scanner, warp drive, in-built system scanner and such is much more valid then comparing heat to HACs/whatever. Actually, I have been saying the exact same thing through the entire thread. It should be implemented as a base feature for every ship. People saying noobs will burn up their modules should consider that same noob right now can wander into low sec and lose the entire ship so what is the difference? The key to protecting noobs from both of those pitfalls is to put that info into the tutorial so they know this stuff before they even get into the game. This game is risky even for a noob. People trying to pose as though they are concerned about new players are just using it as an excuse to keep the reqs for heat where they currently are. And yes, comparing training Heat to training up HaCs and Battleships is pretty stupid. I didn't realize the player base is this clueless. The probing window is built into the scanner window as well. infact, iirc, the probing window is the first (1st!) tab and the no-skill system scanner only the second or third. Now, probing requires quite some SP to be done effectively, be it exploration probing or probing for players. I ask, no, I DEMAND the training time for these skills to be lowered since it's built into the UI! Yeah except my arguments to why the reqs should be lowered have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it was built into the interface.
Disco Flint Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.22 13:18:00 - [468] Originally by: Hasak Rain Yeah except my arguments to why the reqs should be lowered have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it was built into the interface. ah yes? Here, let me aid your memory! Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 22/06/2007 12:28:07 Originally by: Cpt Branko This is probably the best heat-related comment from the whole thread. Comparing Heat to the scanner, warp drive, in-built system scanner and such is much more valid then comparing heat to HACs/whatever. Actually, I have been saying the exact same thing through the entire thread. It should be implemented as a base feature for every ship. snip
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.22 13:22:00 - [469] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 22/06/2007 13:21:26 Originally by: Disco Flint Originally by: Hasak Rain Yeah except my arguments to why the reqs should be lowered have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it was built into the interface. ah yes? Here, let me aid your memory! Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 22/06/2007 12:28:07 Originally by: Cpt Branko This is probably the best heat-related comment from the whole thread. Comparing Heat to the scanner, warp drive, in-built system scanner and such is much more valid then comparing heat to HACs/whatever. Actually, I have been saying the exact same thing through the entire thread. It should be implemented as a base feature for every ship. snip A base feature on a ship doesn't have to be something that is embedded into the interface. Last time I checked, my ship's base armor hit points were not controlled by any buttons on the UI.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.22 13:31:00 - [470] I figure the other thread will get locked/deleted at some point, so I figured I should just post my thoughts here instead. Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem isn't the requirement, its that its a part of the interface that newbies will see for 6 months before they can even use it. And that wouldn't be confusing to someone? Suddenly a primary element of the game interface changes because they trained a skill? This speaks to me as one of two things. 1. The idea of a changing interface is poorly conceived 2. The existing interface is poorly conceived Or possibly some combination of the two. Here's a thought for changing how things work. 1. Change fitting window to include a button for heat configuration (new window). There, you set which slots are set to be able to be overheated. This button is always there, but gives the user the skill requirement message when they click it. 2. The configuration window shows you how your skill affects the modules. 3. Configured slots show the green bars, others do not. Thus new players will not see any heat interface elements. 4. Rack toggles appear when a ship has been configured. There is no reconfigure on the fly, so you have to dock or use a ship maintenance array to reset your configuration. You begin overheating by clicking on a particular rack's toggle icon, deactivate when you click it again. 5. Slots which have been configured will show the indicator bar so the user can see whether something's being overheated and how much damage is taken (you have to show it SOMEhow). Slots not configured will not show the indicators. Thoughts? warp drive active \| nature vraie
Bonny Lou	Posted - 2007.06.22 13:42:00 - [471] Leave it at V. Just because you should show the people that whining doesnt always work. Please.
Disco Flint Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.22 13:48:00 - [472] Originally by: Hasak Rain A base feature on a ship doesn't have to be something that is embedded into the interface. Last time I checked, my ship's base armor hit points were not controlled by any buttons on the UI. Quite a lot of base features ARE embedded into the UI (warp to, orbit, make guns go pewpew). So what you just said is worth nothing again, thanks for the eyeroll.
HoKu Ziare Middle Finger Technology Ghosts Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.22 13:49:00 - [473] Originally by: CampyloBacter Originally by: Grath Telkin this post amazes me. So is the problem that you have to see it in your UI, or that you cant use the damn heat? I wonder if all the posters here realize how many 2-3 year old players DIDNT train EM5, simply because they didnt think the final level was worth it. Don't believe me? try trolling the alts for sale, take a look at how many DONT have that skill, AND have 2+year ages on em. You'd think its the end of the world "Oh woe is me, i cant do things a 3 year player does" BFD, get over it. The OP here violently attacks anybody who dose not side with him, ignoring every fact presented. He is backed by people calling it a "timesink"...wtf do you think BS 5 is? 60 days for what? a slight boost. I wonder why he bothered to post at all, unless he wanted to prove his lack of debating skills by ignoring facts, and attacking people who try to make a point. In the end, like everything else in this game, im sure CCP will fold, and "dumb" it down, the nerf cries will reach the heavans, and the great smiting nerf bolt will come down, then EVE will be full of people burning up thier mods and crying for the heat effect to do less damage. One thing you all need to adjust to, EvE is all about the haves n the have nots. you have trained the skills, or you have not, you will train the skills, or you will not. This game isnt supposed to be fair, its supposed to reward those who work hard at it. If your willing to take the time to train the skill, regardless of what you think of it being a timesink (which is utterly ****** when you look at some of the longer train skills), you will reap the rewards. only 2 things will make this thread better: a moderator saying "its not changing, deal with it for once instead of ***ing", and CCP saying that EVERY patch from now on will involve increasingly difficult to aquire skills. cause i gotta tell you, that if i had been playing for 3 years, n some guy who started a month ago came along and could do even a portion of what i could do, i would simply find a new game to play. If the damn UI bothers you so much, start a thread about that to get noticed, but dont use it as a platform to adjust the requirements for a skill, it just sounds assanine when presented in this particular ridiculous argument. /signed perhaps one of the best written and most succinct posts I have ever read in these fora. Thank you sir- for bringing some sanity to this asylum. I endorse this product. ps. Dear CCP about changing the Skill Req's... Don't
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.22 13:52:00 - [474] Originally by: Bonny Lou Leave it at V. Just because you should show the people that whining doesnt always work. Please. Yes because it ALWAYS works. I mean take a look at all of the daily whines about lag and how it is always fixed. That aside, "whining" is a pretty loose term. I suppose when you bring up something that you think is wrong it is called Constructive Criticism?
qantua gnartians Gallente Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation	Posted - 2007.06.22 14:15:00 - [475] Originally by: Disco Flint Now, probing requires quite some SP to be done effectively, be it exploration probing or probing for players. I ask, no, I DEMAND the training time for these skills to be lowered since it's built into the UI! Every noob can now use a built in probe with out any training at all, did'nt you read the patch notes . so your demanding something that have been delivered. I do think CCP completely messed up the implemtation of heat, not just in terms of skill req's but also in therms of reasing it before they had the UI fully designed or actually figured out how it would affect gameplay, and player experience. I still think there should be both more SP involved in getting max use of Heat but less in terms of getting to be able to push the button and watch you civilian gatling gun blown up. I hereby represents myself and noone but myself, please dont make my corp or aliance responsible for my foolis
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.22 20:22:00 - [476] Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 22/06/2007 12:28:07 Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Whalesaver Having played the game for 2.5 years, I have EM5 so I would like to think my viewpoint is relatively objective. I believe there should be no pre-requisites for heat. Why? It is available on every ship and is not a module. It's not as though you need a pre-requisite skill to use your scanner, or to warp, so why to use heat? Sure seed skills for using it more effectively, but it has the capacity to be a game changing mechanic, why exclude 95% of the playing population from using it? This is probably the best heat-related comment from the whole thread. Comparing Heat to the scanner, warp drive, in-built system scanner and such is much more valid then comparing heat to HACs/whatever. Actually, I have been saying the exact same thing through the entire thread. It should be implemented as a base feature for every ship. People saying noobs will burn up their modules should consider that same noob right now can wander into low sec and lose the entire ship so what is the difference? The key to protecting noobs from both of those pitfalls is to put that info into the tutorial so they know this stuff before they even get into the game. This game is risky even for a noob. People trying to pose as though they are concerned about new players are just using it as an excuse to keep the reqs for heat where they currently are. And yes, comparing training Heat to training up HaCs and Battleships is pretty stupid. I didn't realize the player base is this clueless. shows exactly how much you pay attention to people with views that differ from yours. Ive stated several times, as i defend the reqs that i CAN'T use it on ANY alt i have, AND for that matter, neither can 90% of the people i know in game, one of which is nearly 4 years in game.
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.22 20:26:00 - [477] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: CampyloBacter Originally by: Grath Telkin this post amazes me. So is the problem that you have to see it in your UI, or that you cant use the damn heat? I wonder if all the posters here realize how many 2-3 year old players DIDNT train EM5, simply because they didnt think the final level was worth it. Don't believe me? try trolling the alts for sale, take a look at how many DONT have that skill, AND have 2+year ages on em. You'd think its the end of the world "Oh woe is me, i cant do things a 3 year player does" BFD, get over it. The OP here violently attacks anybody who dose not side with him, ignoring every fact presented. He is backed by people calling it a "timesink"...wtf do you think BS 5 is? 60 days for what? a slight boost. I wonder why he bothered to post at all, unless he wanted to prove his lack of debating skills by ignoring facts, and attacking people who try to make a point. In the end, like everything else in this game, im sure CCP will fold, and "dumb" it down, the nerf cries will reach the heavans, and the great smiting nerf bolt will come down, then EVE will be full of people burning up thier mods and crying for the heat effect to do less damage. One thing you all need to adjust to, EvE is all about the haves n the have nots. you have trained the skills, or you have not, you will train the skills, or you will not. This game isnt supposed to be fair, its supposed to reward those who work hard at it. If your willing to take the time to train the skill, regardless of what you think of it being a timesink (which is utterly ****** when you look at some of the longer train skills), you will reap the rewards. only 2 things will make this thread better: a moderator saying "its not changing, deal with it for once instead of ***ing", and CCP saying that EVERY patch from now on will involve increasingly difficult to aquire skills. cause i gotta tell you, that if i had been playing for 3 years, n some guy who started a month ago came along and could do even a portion of what i could do, i would simply find a new game to play. If the damn UI bothers you so much, start a thread about that to get noticed, but dont use it as a platform to adjust the requirements for a skill, it just sounds assanine when presented in this particular ridiculous argument. /signed perhaps one of the best written and most succinct posts I have ever read in these fora. Thank you sir- for bringing some sanity to this asylum. Yes it is a great post except for the following. 1) Comparing the training time for Heat to the training time of a BS, Hac or any other high end ship class in this game is the ramblings of the idiotic. I shouldn't even have to explain why so i won't. 2) Where are these facts that he speaks of? Actually, most of the posts here are of the 12 year old "Stop whining, Suck it up..blah blah" variety. Saying "because I say so so shut up" doesn't qualify as a fact. 3) His "succient" post reaks of "I don't want the noobs having what i have." He even admits as much. But yeah...it is such a great post since it is a totally unbiased view and all. and the worst part is, that i post in huge paragraphs, stating over and over again that i cant use heat, and you keep saying that im defending it because i can. Lets me know that you are extremely hard headed, and you only posted here to see people agree with you, your not reading anything that dosent agree with your ideas, your paraphrasing, and doing a poor job. I understand HOW you extrapolated your poor accusation, but i cant figure out how you justify calling what i said wrong.
Kaylana Syi The Nest	Posted - 2007.06.22 21:30:00 - [478] I can't use heat. I still think em5 is a bad decision. Why? Because it does little for your overall stats and its a high rank. Engineering 5 is rank 1 and so is Science. Why not have science 5 instead. Science 5 is an entrance into many aspects of EVE. Older players might not have this either, especially pvp characters that don't fly capitals. Why is science 5 and Engineerng 5 and EM4 too much to ask. Its a middle ground with more benefits. Oh yes... because people should suck it up. Oh, and because other people are tired of hearing other people whine about things because they can't have it sooner. Team Minmatar
TimMc Phoenix Inc	Posted - 2007.06.22 21:55:00 - [479] Dudes, every heat is more useful in PvP, and every PvP player seems to have it and is telling you all to STFU, so please just do it. Heat is pretty pointless from a PvE standpoint, which is where most of you moaners are coming from. Heck I mostly PvE and you guys are annoying. This is one of the post pointless wines ever, just listen to yourself! Grow up and play the game instead of b*tching on the boards. Thank you.
aevistyne Caldari Solarflare Heavy Industries Pure.	Posted - 2007.06.23 03:30:00 - [480] Really, all that this skill requirement does is push something that i have been putting off for almost a year now to the front of my to do list, it's two weeks training, you get a skill that is damned useful as well as the ability to overload your modules. By making people train this skill, all that they are doing is forcing people to train something that everyone should have, but most put off. Just my .02ISK
Brazero Amarr Noble House	Posted - 2007.06.23 08:03:00 - [481] I have to admit that after reading the first page I skipped the rest to see what page 17 had to offer. I'll make this short; to all the shortcut lovers, just train the skills needed and shut up. I can't fracking believe you guys fly around without maxed energy skills. But then again, I blame the forums for making it easy to drop in with a brand new whine thread instead of just training the skills and move on. Quote: <tuxford> Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.23 08:13:00 - [482] Useful? Yes. "Damn useful"? Not really. There are tons of stuff which is a better time investment. t2 guns/misssiles/drones, t2 tanking skills, nav skills, frig 2, cruiser 5 and so on. After around 1 year it gets about the same lvl in time/effect as other skills you can train and is regardless heat slowly a "good idea". Before that though..not really. Before that you'll be making your char weaker by training EM5, not stronger because you can invest these 630k SP into other skills which give you a far greater boost than 4.2% more cap. The thing is really that we have a generic, non module specific (or t2) game mechanic which is visible in the UI from day one. It's rather strange that CCP is giving it such high skill requirements, there is no other generic gamemechanic which is like that.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.23 08:56:00 - [483] Originally by: Aramendel Useful? Yes. "Damn useful"? Not really. There are tons of stuff which is a better time investment. t2 guns/misssiles/drones, t2 tanking skills, nav skills, frig 2, cruiser 5 and so on. After around 1 year it gets about the same lvl in time/effect as other skills you can train and is regardless heat slowly a "good idea". Before that though..not really. Before that you'll be making your char weaker by training EM5, not stronger because you can invest these 630k SP into other skills which give you a far greater boost than 4.2% more cap. The thing is really that we have a generic, non module specific (or t2) game mechanic which is visible in the UI from day one. It's rather strange that CCP is giving it such high skill requirements, there is no other generic gamemechanic which is like that. I disagree that EM 5 isn't a good investment but it is maybe a little less useful to you if you fly Caldari or Minmater but even with those races, it doesn't hurt to have a little more base cap. That doesn't validate it as being a req to Heat though. Just because it is useful doesn't convince me. I also think the CCP giving the interface for Heat to everyone whether you can use it or not is just a case of their developers being a bit lazy. They just wanted to put it into the game and be done with it rather than having to put in a feature where you can toggle between the two or have the new one insert once you learn Heat.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.23 09:18:00 - [484] Originally by: Brazero I'll make this short; to all the shortcut lovers, just train the skills needed and shut up. I can't fracking believe you guys fly around without maxed energy skills. I like to think of it as me having more skill at this game than someone like you. Someone who has to have every single skill maxed to 5 before you will even undock, I mean.
Mudkest MetaForge Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.06.23 09:38:00 - [485] Originally by: ghosttr It seems that every new feature they add into the game takes longer & longer to use. First it was the salvaging requirements, but now the pos defense and overheating skills are requiring really high prerequisites And just you watch, they're going to wait till i get ****ed off enough to actually bother to train those ridiculous prerequisites. Then right after i finish training they will reduce the requirements. well at least energy managment and engeeniring are usefull skills to ahve at 5, unlike survey wich is a bit dubious(yes archeology is nice to ahve for exploration, but evne then the skill itself isnt very usefull) -FIX LP store please small change, big difference
Mudkest MetaForge Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.06.23 09:42:00 - [486] Originally by: Kaylana Syi I can't use heat. I still think em5 is a bad decision. Why? Because it does little for your overall stats and its a high rank. it's jsut a rank3 skill, wait till you want battleship at 5 :p and it does not do little for your overal stat, unless you're passive tanked missile barge pilot(or passive tanked autocannon Flottile I guess) and you dont need cap -FIX LP store please small change, big difference
Brazero Amarr Noble House	Posted - 2007.06.23 10:07:00 - [487] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Brazero I'll make this short; to all the shortcut lovers, just train the skills needed and shut up. I can't fracking believe you guys fly around without maxed energy skills. I like to think of it as me having more skill at this game than someone like you. Someone who has to have every single skill maxed to 5 before you will even undock, I mean. We are talking about support skills here, skills that count for whatever we decide to fly. Lots of ppl, if not all, will at some point train for another race/ship and/or new modules and such. These support skills will never go away, and from time to time some of these skills will save your royal ass. Oh, and as for me and my skills........ Quote: <tuxford> Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.23 10:43:00 - [488] Originally by: Mudkest Originally by: Kaylana Syi I can't use heat. I still think em5 is a bad decision. Why? Because it does little for your overall stats and its a high rank. it's jsut a rank3 skill, wait till you want battleship at 5 :p and it does not do little for your overal stat, unless you're passive tanked missile barge pilot(or passive tanked autocannon Flottile I guess) and you dont need cap WTB: Rank 5 Battleship book. name your price! I can't get excited about the thermo requirements; I'm still shell-shocked from evemon's ETA for Fleet Command ship skills (plus the leadership skills)... ...it wished me a merry Xmas.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:06:00 - [489] Originally by: Hasak Rain I disagree that EM 5 isn't a good investment but it is maybe a little less useful to you if you fly Caldari or Minmater but even with those races, it doesn't hurt to have a little more base cap. Doesn't matter. Even for amarr getting the frig/cruiser skill to 5 will help you a LOT more than EM5. Or getting t2 weapons. Or t2 tanks. It's before you have all of that simply no good investement. Originally by: Malcanis WTB: Rank 5 Battleship book. name your price! He meant getting it to lvl 5, not that it is a rank 5 skill.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:13:00 - [490] Originally by: Brazero Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Brazero I'll make this short; to all the shortcut lovers, just train the skills needed and shut up. I can't fracking believe you guys fly around without maxed energy skills. I like to think of it as me having more skill at this game than someone like you. Someone who has to have every single skill maxed to 5 before you will even undock, I mean. We are talking about support skills here, skills that count for whatever we decide to fly. Lots of ppl, if not all, will at some point train for another race/ship and/or new modules and such. These support skills will never go away, and from time to time some of these skills will save your royal ass. Oh, and as for me and my skills........ Yawn, I know what support skills are and have always agreed through this thread that they are important. {Oh right, you didn't read the thread. You came to the last page and told everyone to "shut up" correct? Therefore you have no clue to what my stance really is) My point is whether EM 5 is soooooo very important is totally irrelevant to where they implemented Heat reqs. All I keep reading is "well you need EM 5 anyway." Sorry, but that isn't a reason why Heat needs to be at EM 5. btw: Guess what, I haven't needed EM 5 yet and yes I pvp. I agree that it is a good skill but having 4.8% less cap than is obtainable without mods and rigs hasn't decided a single fight I have been in so that pretty much blows that theory out of the water. Oh and what did you do in this game before you trained EM 5 up? I am assuming you cowered in your hanger because you just ridiculed anyone "who flies around without max capped skills." a couple of posts up. Those are your words so I am just curious to how you managed to play the game before you ungimped yourself?
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:20:00 - [491] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Hasak Rain I disagree that EM 5 isn't a good investment but it is maybe a little less useful to you if you fly Caldari or Minmater but even with those races, it doesn't hurt to have a little more base cap. Doesn't matter. Even for amarr getting the frig/cruiser skill to 5 will help you a LOT more than EM5. Or getting t2 weapons. Or t2 tanks. It's before you have all of that simply no good investement. Originally by: Malcanis WTB: Rank 5 Battleship book. name your price! He meant getting it to lvl 5, not that it is a rank 5 skill. Yes i agree there are more important skills to get. Having the best cap you can obtain is important but there are other things that are just as important. People acting like 4.8% more base cap is going to make you uber is pretty funny actually.
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:28:00 - [492] Originally by: TimMc Dudes, every heat is more useful in PvP, and every PvP player seems to have it and is telling you all to STFU, so please just do it. Heat is pretty pointless from a PvE standpoint, which is where most of you moaners are coming from. Heck I mostly PvE and you guys are annoying. This is one of the post pointless wines ever, just listen to yourself! Grow up and play the game instead of b*tching on the boards. Thank you. lol my favorite kind of idiot. The ones who say a thread is annoying but take the time to read it and then post in it. {I am assuming you read it since you said that you find it annoying.} It must of sucked to have that dude standing behind you with a gun to your head forcing you to read it. I am sorry we put you through this.
Father Shillelagh	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:58:00 - [493] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: TimMc Dudes, every heat is more useful in PvP, and every PvP player seems to have it and is telling you all to STFU, so please just do it. Heat is pretty pointless from a PvE standpoint, which is where most of you moaners are coming from. Heck I mostly PvE and you guys are annoying. This is one of the post pointless wines ever, just listen to yourself! Grow up and play the game instead of btching on the boards. Thank you. lol my favorite kind of idiot. The ones who say a thread is annoying but take the time to read it and then post in it. {I am assuming you read it since you said that you find it annoying.} It must of sucked to have that dude standing behind you with a gun to your head forcing you to read it. I am sorry we put you through this. nah, your post is even more ****** stupid. I swear i hate these forums, I come on once in a while to see what the craic is and end up pucnhing myself int eh face when i read drivel like yours. I hate you lol.
TimMc Phoenix Inc	Posted - 2007.06.23 12:05:00 - [494] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: TimMc Dudes, every heat is more useful in PvP, and every PvP player seems to have it and is telling you all to STFU, so please just do it. Heat is pretty pointless from a PvE standpoint, which is where most of you moaners are coming from. Heck I mostly PvE and you guys are annoying. This is one of the post pointless wines ever, just listen to yourself! Grow up and play the game instead of btching on the boards. Thank you. lol my favorite kind of idiot. The ones who say a thread is annoying but take the time to read it and then post in it. {I am assuming you read it since you said that you find it annoying.} It must of sucked to have that dude standing behind you with a gun to your head forcing you to read it. I am sorry we put you through this. I only read the first page, then made the fair assumption that this thread is 17 pages of the same ****ing, shesh how sad do you think I am?
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.23 13:12:00 - [495] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Hasak Rain I disagree that EM 5 isn't a good investment but it is maybe a little less useful to you if you fly Caldari or Minmater but even with those races, it doesn't hurt to have a little more base cap. Doesn't matter. Even for amarr getting the frig/cruiser skill to 5 will help you a LOT more than EM5. Or getting t2 weapons. Or t2 tanks. It's before you have all of that simply no good investement. Originally by: Malcanis WTB: Rank 5 Battleship book. name your price! He meant getting it to lvl 5, not that it is a rank 5 skill. Sooo.. stop whining and dont train it? ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Lore Isander Caldari Sybrite Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.23 13:42:00 - [496] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Sooo.. stop whining and dont train it? Qft ---
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.23 14:08:00 - [497] Edited by: Grath Telkin on 23/06/2007 14:07:42 Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 23/06/2007 11:23:01 Originally by: Brazero Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Brazero I'll make this short; to all the shortcut lovers, just train the skills needed and shut up. I can't fracking believe you guys fly around without maxed energy skills. I like to think of it as me having more skill at this game than someone like you. Someone who has to have every single skill maxed to 5 before you will even undock, I mean. We are talking about support skills here, skills that count for whatever we decide to fly. Lots of ppl, if not all, will at some point train for another race/ship and/or new modules and such. These support skills will never go away, and from time to time some of these skills will save your royal ass. Oh, and as for me and my skills........ Yawn, I know what support skills are and have always agreed through this thread that they are important. {Oh right, you didn't read the thread. You came to the last page and told everyone to "shut up" correct? Therefore you have no clue to what my stance really is) My point is whether EM 5 is soooooo very important is totally irrelevant to where they implemented Heat reqs. All I keep reading is "well you need EM 5 anyway." Sorry, but that isn't a reason why Heat needs to be at EM 5. btw: Guess what, I haven't needed EM 5 yet and yes I pvp. I agree that it is a good skill but having 4.8% less cap than is obtainable without mods and rigs hasn't decided a single fight I have been in so that pretty much blows that theory out of the water. Oh and what did you do in this game before you trained EM 5 up? I am assuming you cowered in your hanger because you just ridiculed anyone "who flies around without max cap skills." a couple of posts up. Those are your words so I am just curious to how you managed to play the game before you ungimped yourself? im not calling you out, but if you read all my posts, one of them i actually gave an objective idea as to why CCP may have set the reqs to what they are. ive read all 17 pages of this sucker, and i always read the new stuff before i post on a topic.. i actually am thinking its more of a "themed" thing for them. Engineering, deals with energy, energy management deals with energy, heat, is energy, master the power systems of your ship, and you can modify the flow of heat energy, that sort of thing. in my post i never said "cause its a good skill to have for pvp". this alt hasnt actually trained that skill at all yet, not even in my book, its on the list, but i was working on other stuff, so no, i dont believe you NEED it to pvp (EM5), but it will help in the long run. I havent felt the need for it yet n ive killed just about every size ship you can kill, including chasing a carrier back into his station with a 7 man squad. I would never support the reqs simply because they "are a must have for PVP"...thats an opinion, not any kind of proven fact at all. I support the reqs for one simple reason, wisdom: Id rather have a bit more education as to what i can do and cant do before i start torching all my stuff. Id rather those who CAN use it torch theirs while learning the best ways to use it, then i can benefit from their wisdom, and NOT burn mine up in a unneeded situation.
Zenst Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.23 15:19:00 - [498] Originally by: Na'Kunni Edited by: Na''Kunni on 19/06/2007 23:20:55 Can't we make Thermodynamic's only require Engineering level 5 + Energy Management/science level 4 I find this rather odd, as the noob's (I have quite a nice few mil SP tucked under the belt, so don't class myself as a total noob) already have a hard time to keep up with the vet's, and now with heat here. They can pwn even more given they know what they're doing. I see/hope this will be sorted out in the future, but for now look's like im gonna have to train it to keep inline, and once again go off my goal, AGAIN.... whine over. Discuss once you all come out of game!! Moved from Eve General Discussion to Skills -Eldo UNSIGNED I have to train L5 logistics for a darn module - So suck it up. If everything skills is panada friendly then the game owuld be very boring as nobody would be special.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.23 20:20:00 - [499] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Sooo.. stop whining and dont train it? I AM training it Did so since I saw the skill requirements changed on SISI. 3 days left. Got no problem with it, but I am over a year old and don't have anything really important to train atm. If I were a new player however I would have a bit of a problem with it. Not because I want to have it at once with a 30 minute training time, but because it would be before my nose from day one which kinda suggests it being a core game mechanic which you HAVE to train AFAP. Some frustration potential there.
Rudy Metallo Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.24 05:01:00 - [500] Edited by: Rudy Metallo on 24/06/2007 05:01:25 Engineering 5 I understand Science 4 I understand But Energy Management 5? Pointless. Make it energy systems operation 5, and I may consider getting heat. Say what?
Sean Drake Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.06.24 11:09:00 - [501] CCP made a simple choice 1 Whine thread like this about high requirements or 100's of whine threads from noobs who just blew up whole rows of exspensive mods. I fully understand and agree with CCP taking option 1 Besides if I now have to train Anchoring lvl5 just to keep training a skill I all ready have that has also had it's rank doubled as well the you all can suffer as well.
errorist Caldari Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.24 12:04:00 - [502] This post is being flamed by older players, and as one im going to do the same. Energy management 5 is a skill everyone should train,and you say it is only 5%, then why train the skill in the first place... ¿the lvl 5 of the skill actually gives the most cap. If Somethings hard doing its not worth doing, But get going anyway
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.24 12:57:00 - [503] Edited by: Aramendel on 24/06/2007 12:58:13 Originally by: errorist Energy management 5 is a skill everyone should train,and you say it is only 5%, then why train the skill in the first place... ¿the lvl 5 of the skill actually gives the most cap. Er.. no, it doesn't. You seem to onfuse it with energy systems operation. There you go from 0.8 to 0.75 of your cap recharge time, which gives you compared to lvl 4 of the skill a boost 0.8/0.75 -> 1.0666 or in other words, 6.7% more cap/sec. FOR EM5 the opposite is the case, it gives the smallest benefit compared to the last lvl of the skill. You go from 1.2 to 1.25 of your base cap, which is 1.25/1.2 -> 1.04166, aka 4.2% more max cap (and recharge) than at lvl 4. In general, for skills which reduce something the last lvl has always the biggest effect and for skills which increase something the last lvl has always the smallest effect. Compared vs the previous lvl of cource.
Cassius Hawkeye Minmatar UK Corp FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.24 15:13:00 - [504] Edited by: Cassius Hawkeye on 24/06/2007 15:17:40 Yeah - and i can't flly a carrier in 3 weeks because i have to train BS lvl 5 - whats that all about?? It's not fair! If you want to fly a cov op frigate you have to train Electronics Upgrades V - not fair huh! For every whiner, there are 100's of newer players who just get on with it! Train the damn skill if you want it. If you don't - don't train it. BTW i have EM 4 and it doesn't bother me - and i am NOT a vet.
SonOTassadar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.06.24 18:57:00 - [505] Now training: Energy Management 5. And I'm not whining. ----- Griffin -- 100,000 ISK ECM - Multispectral Jammer Is -- 20,000 ISK Standard Missile Launcher Is -- 10,000 ISK War target sobbing over losing a fight in his T2 fitted Battleship -- priceless
Sean Drake Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.06.24 23:08:00 - [506] Originally by: SonOTassadar Now training: Energy Management 5. And I'm not whining. Well done but you appear to be in the minority
Crawler Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2007.06.25 07:44:00 - [507] come on whine its not like you get stronger by training energy management to lvl 5 and there for fave the power to stay in battle longer. the skill takes 6-8 days to train to lvl 5 less you you start exploiting the LP shop and get +5 implants. i really like the heat you can stay in combat just a little longer or even finish up quickly without loosing any modules you just need to train the skill to lvl 5 _____________________________________________ yawnnnnn
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.25 10:53:00 - [508] Wow this is still going strong and I am even still being quoted. 17 pages and haven't really seen one good reason yet. Just a bunch of rabble from some jaded Vets with inferiority complexes {or should it be called a WoW complex?} where they don't want anyone approaching things that they have. Pathetic really but what can you expect from little children? Probably the closest thing I have read to a good reason is someone mentioned that Heat is supposedly the bridge to T3 and for that reason should have high reqs but until that is confirmed, I am not buying it yet. The 13 days it would take for me to train for this doesn't even bother me in itself. I have trained longer skills and EM 5 was on my list of "to do" even before I knew Heat was attached to it. However, I just view it as yet another unnecessary time sink implemented by CCP. There is no justification for it. Until I get it trained, I will just fly lvl 4 missions in high sec making millions upon millions. One less target out there for the kiddies telling me to "suck it up." The good news is this will help finance the fleet of Faction and regular Battleships I am putting together. Thanks and have a nice day. Maybe ill come back tomorrow and see if anyone has come up with something intelligent yet. Not holding my breath though.
Magius Paulus Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.06.25 12:21:00 - [509] I'm not having any problems with EM5. I think one of the cool things about Eve is the satisfaction to collect sp for that ONE skill you like very much. However, i would be very disappointed if i'm like 75% of EM5 and then suddenly ccp lowers the req to 4. It's not like they didn't knew it would be a hard skill to get @5, so i guess they thought it over anyway.
Ssoraszh Tzarszh Minmatar Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks	Posted - 2007.06.25 13:03:00 - [510] Edited by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh on 25/06/2007 13:02:33 Originally by: Hasak Rain Wow this is still going strong and I am even still being quoted. 17 pages and haven't really seen one good reason yet. Just a bunch of rabble from some jaded Vets with inferiority complexes {or should it be called a WoW complex?} where they don't want anyone approaching things that they have. Pathetic really but what can you expect from little children? <snip> Thanks and have a nice day. Maybe ill come back tomorrow and see if anyone has come up with something intelligent yet. Not holding my breath though. Wow, you lack what you claim to seek seemingly. By your logic, you are just a "whining noob" who envies what "jaded vets" have and wants everything handed to you on a silver platter. Just like a 5 year old. Originally by: Hasak Rain The 13 days it would take for me to train for this doesn't even bother me in itself. Then why bother creating this thread then anyway? Just train the darn skill, its not like its useless, everyone who has it and is dependend on cap in their fittings can attest to that fact. Oh, i'm sorry you dont get out mutch, playing with NPC's all day and such. Nevermind, i see why its "useless" to you. Well then, i got news for you. Heat is not more usefull to you than training EM to lvl 5, to be honest i would not use it against NPC's anyway. So theres no need to train either skill. just put the Thermodynamics on your "to do list" like EM 5. Have fun,
Mystic Pete	Posted - 2007.06.25 19:15:00 - [511] Ok, after reading the first couple of pages I thought I'd skip to the end. As this still seem s to be going on, a few thoughts. If you don't think Energy Management 5 is worth it don't get it. If not getting EM5 means no thermodynamics maybe you should rethink whether it's worth it. Thermodynamics is a new skill based on overclocking modules. Its makes sense to have engineering and cap skill reqs. Having both these skills mastered before you can fine manipulate the power to these modules seems perfectly acceptable. As a side note I had a quick look at Command Ships the other day. As I've just got in a BC it will take me a hell of a lot longer to get one of those than to get thermodynamics. Should it's requirements be nerfed so I can get one sooner? And aimed at the OP or sympathisers. You are expressing your freedom of speach and expressing an opinion. What you are doing is whining. The worst thing is that sometimes bad choices get made because ignorant people whine. It's just not possible to get everyone that actually wants a balanced, fair game to post each and every day on the boards 'Please CCP don't listen to the whiners today' Oh and one last thing to the OP "but for now look's like im gonna have to train it to keep inline, and once again go off my goal, AGAIN...." if you've got a goal stick to it. When your in a position to fine tune look at the fancy skills.
BOBHOPE Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.25 21:47:00 - [512] nothing worng with it in my opinion. the prereq's are fine and it is something that adds a little extra as rigs were to the older player who cant max anymore skills to get a desired effect with his/her chosen playstyle. my 2quid
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.06.26 05:24:00 - [513] a) its a good skill to train b) heat is a lead up to tech 3. lets not make it easy to get
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.06.26 10:56:00 - [514] Only a few hours left before Energy Management 5 is done here now. As for everyone complaining about the needed prerequisites, if you don't want to use heat, don't. CCP doesn't force you. We're sorry, something happened.
Cpt Branko Guardian Heroes	Posted - 2007.06.26 11:58:00 - [515] I'm going to rip-off the opinions of a few other posters and rehash them, as this hasn't been asnwered to by all the "suck it up" fanbois: I believe there should be no pre-requisites for heat. Why? It is available on every ship and is not a module. It's not as though you need a pre-requisite skill to use your scanner, or to warp, so why to use heat? Sure seed skills for using it more effectively, but it has the capacity to be a game changing mechanic, why exclude 95% of the playing population from using it? Comparing Heat to the scanner, warp drive, in-built system scanner and such is much more valid then comparing heat to HACs/whatever. And to the guy who said that exploration (probing) is also a part of the UI but requires skills, well, at a basic level (in-built scanner), it doesn't now. And noobs baking modules (which can be repaired), well, noobs can also go to low-sec and get blasted/podded. Nothing stops them from that. Rather put heat in the tutorial. Can any of you even formulate a logical answer to this except "suck it up"?
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.26 18:12:00 - [516] Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh Edited by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh on 25/06/2007 13:02:33 Originally by: Hasak Rain Wow this is still going strong and I am even still being quoted. 17 pages and haven't really seen one good reason yet. Just a bunch of rabble from some jaded Vets with inferiority complexes {or should it be called a WoW complex?} where they don't want anyone approaching things that they have. Pathetic really but what can you expect from little children? <snip> Thanks and have a nice day. Maybe ill come back tomorrow and see if anyone has come up with something intelligent yet. Not holding my breath though. Wow, you lack what you claim to seek seemingly. By your logic, you are just a "whining noob" who envies what "jaded vets" have and wants everything handed to you on a silver platter. Just like a 5 year old. Originally by: Hasak Rain The 13 days it would take for me to train for this doesn't even bother me in itself. Then why bother creating this thread then anyway? Just train the darn skill, its not like its useless, everyone who has it and is dependend on cap in their fittings can attest to that fact. Oh, i'm sorry you dont get out mutch, playing with NPC's all day and such. Nevermind, i see why its "useless" to you. Well then, i got news for you. Heat is not more usefull to you than training EM to lvl 5, to be honest i would not use it against NPC's anyway. So theres no need to train either skill. just put the Thermodynamics on your "to do list" like EM 5. Have fun, Wow you are certainly pretty stupid. For one thing, I didn't create the thread. I thank the guy who did however. Secondly, Why wouldn't heat be useful to me? What in the hell are you even talking about? I am assuming that you think I am a PvE player only but if that is what you read, I think you need to take a reading comprehension course. All I said was I will not PvP until I get around to training up for Heat. I never said anything about wanting Heat for use in PvE. Idiot.
Edania Caldari 9th army CMC Edge Of Sanity	Posted - 2007.06.26 19:22:00 - [517] "All I said was I will not PvP until I get around to training up for Heat" oh come on dont be so ludicrous thats like saying im not useful in PVP till i have everything ever and implys you think of PVP as 1V1, if you want to stay out of PVP because of that realise that it isnt CCPs fault its your own imbicility. people PVP in 1 month olds or 1 day olds and have fun, to blazes with everything else its supposed to be fun to play right? get into a good gang op and heat will be utterly utterly pointless it wont stop overwhelming damage and it wont contribute overwhelming damage prehaps just as some have mentioned warp scraming and realise that the world isnt about to explode because you cant use a feature, hell im 3 years old and cant use cloaks or the current flavour of the month but thats not going to stop me try to have a laugth Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
Umit Davala Corpus PCG The State	Posted - 2007.06.26 22:56:00 - [518] Originally by: Hasak Rain Wow this is still going strong and I am even still being quoted. 17 pages and haven't really seen one good reason yet. Just a bunch of rabble from some jaded Vets with inferiority complexes {or should it be called a WoW complex?} where they don't want anyone approaching things that they have. Pathetic really but what can you expect from little children? Probably the closest thing I have read to a good reason is someone mentioned that Heat is supposedly the bridge to T3 and for that reason should have high reqs but until that is confirmed, I am not buying it yet. The 13 days it would take for me to train for this doesn't even bother me in itself. I have trained longer skills and EM 5 was on my list of "to do" even before I knew Heat was attached to it. However, I just view it as yet another unnecessary time sink implemented by CCP. There is no justification for it. Until I get it trained, I will just fly lvl 4 missions in high sec making millions upon millions. One less target out there for the kiddies telling me to "suck it up." The good news is this will help finance the fleet of Faction and regular Battleships I am putting together. Thanks and have a nice day. Maybe ill come back tomorrow and see if anyone has come up with something intelligent yet. Not holding my breath though. Oooo, you big fat troll. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This post was brought to you in association with Amateur Dramatics Forum Whoring, and Quafe Ultra: in the heat of the moment.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.27 01:38:00 - [519] Originally by: Cpt Branko I'm going to rip-off the opinions of a few other posters and rehash them, as this hasn't been asnwered to by all the "suck it up" fanbois: I believe there should be no pre-requisites for heat. Why? It is available on every ship and is not a module. It's not as though you need a pre-requisite skill to use your scanner, or to warp, so why to use heat? Sure seed skills for using it more effectively, but it has the capacity to be a game changing mechanic, why exclude 95% of the playing population from using it? Comparing Heat to the scanner, warp drive, in-built system scanner and such is much more valid then comparing heat to HACs/whatever. And to the guy who said that exploration (probing) is also a part of the UI but requires skills, well, at a basic level (in-built scanner), it doesn't now. And noobs baking modules (which can be repaired), well, noobs can also go to low-sec and get blasted/podded. Nothing stops them from that. Rather put heat in the tutorial. Can any of you even formulate a logical answer to this except "suck it up"? QFE. Also, even if there would be no onboard scanner, you can get probing skills pretty fast. It's no valid comparsion to heat. Oh, and EM5 in 10 hours
TOPSTER Twilight Void	Posted - 2007.06.27 03:38:00 - [520] Even though I have Energy Man. 5, I have to admit I was a bit shocked when I saw that as a requirement. Its overkill. _______________ MK2
Cpt Branko Guardian Heroes	Posted - 2007.06.27 11:07:00 - [521] Originally by: Aramendel ...failure to deliver any argument except EM V in 10 hours... QFE. There, two can play "you're wrong" game
Cleric JohnPreston	Posted - 2007.06.27 12:24:00 - [522] Originally by: TOPSTER Even though I have Energy Man. 5, I have to admit I was a bit shocked when I saw that as a requirement. Its overkill. NAH MATE, THIS SEPERATES THE MEN FROM THE ******* WHINERS lmfao
Unfamed II FinFleet	Posted - 2007.06.27 12:28:00 - [523] I think Eng 5+EM 5 is not enough prereqs. It should be Eng 5+EM 5 and some rank 2 level 5 skill. That way all the noobs could prolly whine off the rank 2 skill and still not make it too easy to train. Thermodynamics is NOT a skill that is required to play the game. Suck it up and train EM 5. Oh and btw, thermodynamics 4 done now. - - Seriously, it's not that great being an amarr, is it?
Car Wars coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.27 14:17:00 - [524] see it as a teaser from ccp, they want you to spend 14d on em5. as you will be playing/paying those 14days. high skills reqs make money.
Raven	Posted - 2007.06.28 01:26:00 - [525] Why won't this thread just die It turned into a pure flamefest several pages ago. Plz, someone ask a Mod to lock it up.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.28 03:09:00 - [526] Originally by: Cpt Branko QFE. There, two can play "you're wrong" game You might reread what I was writing - because I was agreeing with you
bellator militaris	Posted - 2007.07.07 12:39:00 - [527] CCP is looking into this situation and will get back to everyone in about three years.
Janus Ovellian Minmatar Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.08 02:06:00 - [528] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Cpt Branko QFE. There, two can play "you're wrong" game You might reread what I was writing - because I was agreeing with you "you're wrong" ... ignore me. Interesting times await...
nihlanth	Posted - 2007.07.08 05:05:00 - [529] First, I just want to say that I'm not a vet. (my main is barely 2 months old). My opinion on this matter is that the skills requiremnets are fine. I'm an Amarr pilot and I was planning to train EM to V anyway. (5% extra cap is a big enough difference between maintaning cap and running dry in the heat of battle...). I don't think heat is absolutely neccesary though....Im going to be spending the next few months training gunnery, navigation and HAC; so until then I can do without it. :) Keep up the good work CCP. I can't wait to see what you have in store for the future of EVE.
scabbsssjr Gallente M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2007.07.08 23:12:00 - [530] EM 5 is a must for pretty much any ship, so this just bumps it up on everyone's list of to do. So this is not like a wasted skill to lvl 5, take a look at the starbase skill. --------------------------- Originally by: Ductoris At this rate I'm going to ask for a BOB sub-forum.
Big Al The Aftermath	Posted - 2007.07.08 23:17:00 - [531] I think anyone that wants to partake in this worthless skill should definitely be allowed. Make no skill prereqs at all. we ran outta cowbell.
Saralle Zhukov	Posted - 2007.07.09 01:17:00 - [532] Originally by: Shiwan Khan Edited by: Shiwan Khan on 19/06/2007 23:52:29 We trained these skills, so now you have to train the skills. Edit - How about we just make it so when you start a new character you have all the skills ingame already set at lvl 5. That way there will be no division and everyone will be exactly the same. That sounds like fun! Isn't that like a new DEV hire?
Greenbolt Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.09 21:21:00 - [533] I think its stupid that it takes a L4 skill to V to get a L3 skill. Thermodynics should be L8 (or atleast L5,L6) since it would be natural that the skill would be higher level than its requirements. --------------------------------------------------- Scordite -Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi?
City Chick	Posted - 2007.07.13 15:06:00 - [534] I realy dont care dude to be honest, if your thinking level 5 isn't a priority your gonna die anyway.
Zenst Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.14 00:33:00 - [535] Originally by: City Chick I realy dont care dude to be honest, if your thinking level 5 isn't a priority your gonna die anyway.
Plave Okice Naughty 40 Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.14 07:01:00 - [536] All those who started whining in this thread could have had this trained by now.
xHalcyonx Amarr EmpiresMod Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.07.14 20:32:00 - [537] Originally by: Plave Okice All those who started whining in this thread could have had this trained by now. I did.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.14 20:48:00 - [538] Originally by: Plave Okice All those who started whining in this thread could have had this trained by now. hahahah! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.07.14 23:51:00 - [539] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Plave Okice All those who started whining in this thread could have had this trained by now. hahahah! and even have a useful skill at level 5
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.15 09:42:00 - [540] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Plave Okice All those who started whining in this thread could have had this trained by now. hahahah! and even have a useful skill at level 5 A very useful skill, even. It's next on my list as soon as Propulsion Jamming 5 is done. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.15 11:16:00 - [541] Originally by: Plave Okice All those who started whining in this thread could have had this trained by now. I started training EM5 as soon as soon as I saw the changed requirements on sisi, have it now since around 2 week and am still the opinion that it is stupid and would be happy if it would be reduced to EM4. What you fail to realize is that many people do not whine because of personal reasons but simply because they think it is a bad game design choice. The problem is firstly that, yes, EM5 is useful, however in training time/effect it only becomes equally useful to other skills around your 1 year age mark. Before that training other skills will give you a bigger efficiency boost. So the "you should train it anyway" argument only counts for older chars. Then there's the fact that it is a basic UI option. It is no t2 item nor does it work better with t2 items, it is something you can use with nearly every item. Therefore it should also be available with minor skill requirements since it is a basic gameplay element and no t2 ship.
Plave Okice Naughty 40 Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.16 09:46:00 - [542] I still don't see the issue with getting this skill to V, it's a skill that affects every single ship you fly and it's only a rank 3. It's more useful than thermodynamics which for me is something you can train as a bonus.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.16 17:53:00 - [543] If your ship is capstable without it its effect is pretty much nonexistant for you. It makes you in theory more nosresistant, but it only has a real effect on capitals. It is nice to have, but I would class it in usefulness below lvl 5 in a ship you spec in or a t2 weapon or t2 tanking skills or... Basically, the "its a useful skill" argument only applies for players beyond a certain age. It's similar like how BS5 is useful, however training it before you can even use large guns is kinda a bad idea. And, in either case, if EM5 is useful or not does not really matter. The point is that heat is a (new) basic gamemechanic. It's no t2 ship or module or something which does only work with those. It does not require specialist modules. Giving it a such high prerequs simply does not make much sense.
Sazkyen	Posted - 2007.07.16 18:34:00 - [544] I can't believe people are whining over this fabulous time sink they got.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.16 22:49:00 - [545] Originally by: Aramendel If your ship is capstable without it its effect is pretty much nonexistant for you. It makes you in theory more nosresistant, but it only has a real effect on capitals. It is nice to have, but I would class it in usefulness below lvl 5 in a ship you spec in or a t2 weapon or t2 tanking skills or... Basically, the "its a useful skill" argument only applies for players beyond a certain age. It's similar like how BS5 is useful, however training it before you can even use large guns is kinda a bad idea. And, in either case, if EM5 is useful or not does not really matter. The point is that heat is a (new) basic gamemechanic. It's no t2 ship or module or something which does only work with those. It does not require specialist modules. Giving it a such high prerequs simply does not make much sense. Virtually every ship in the game is more or less cap-limited. Even if you're in a 100% passive Drake, you still need cap to warp; practially every other ship needs cap to maintain at least some of its functions. And while NOS exists, having more cap is better. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Lordius Karaith	Posted - 2007.07.17 00:35:00 - [546] Quote: Virtually every ship in the game is more or less cap-limited. Even if you're in a 100% passive Drake, you still need cap to warp; practially every other ship needs cap to maintain at least some of its functions. And while NOS exists, having more cap is better. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. You can warp w/o cap. Just not very far. Sure the skill is useful for all ships, but for something that affects ALL modules, and doesn't require cap to use, I think overheating skill reqs should be dropped as well.
Lo Res	Posted - 2007.07.17 15:43:00 - [547] I really like to look at this from CCP's point of view. They roll out a new feature and, not suprisingly, it's not really available to people on trial accounts. CCP wants to keep the vets happy and also increase their subscriber base at the same time. The trial accounts are a drag on their resources and net them no $. Hence, EM 5 is attainable for noobs but not trial noobs. Heat may well be a feature that causes a trial acct to pay up. Therefore I see it as a pretty decent business strategy. It's not all just fun and games, we have to pay for some devs' new sports cars. (hope this wasn't mentioned before, i didn't read all 19 pages)
pandymen Caldari Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.07.17 21:06:00 - [548] Edited by: pandymen on 17/07/2007 21:06:08 I have been training energy management to V for a few days now. I didn't even think about heat when I started training it, but I now realize there's a nice bonus involved in training that skill now. Regardless of what some naysayers claim, you will need this skill. You may not need it currently with your little setup that just manages to hold onto its cap. Wait until you get something that uses cap like a beast (i.e. any pvp ship, especially one getting nos'ed). I don't understand the issue here. Heat is basically a feature that will be used mostly in pvp. In pvp, one of the most important things to your ships survival is its cap. Every serious pvper will get EM to V anyway. Anyone that doesn't want to train EM to level V is simply someone that sees heat as a new gimmick that he wants to try out without much time involved. They aren't really going to use heat at all (and in fact will probably whine when their modules offline while they were playing around with it). ---------------------------------------------> Red Dwarf is currently recruiting missioners, miners, and 0.0 ratters. Please contact me in-game for details or join channel Red Dwarf Recruitment.
Cpt Branko Guardian Heroes	Posted - 2007.07.18 07:45:00 - [549] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/07/2007 07:45:52 Originally by: pandymen Edited by: pandymen on 17/07/2007 22:03:40 Edited by: pandymen on 17/07/2007 21:06:08 I have been training energy management to V for a few days now. I didn't even think about heat when I started training it, but I now realize there's a nice bonus involved in training that skill now. Regardless of what some naysayers claim, you will need this skill. You may not need it currently with your little setup that just manages to hold onto its cap. Wait until you get something that uses cap like a beast (i.e. any pvp ship, especially one getting nos'ed). I don't understand the issue here. Heat is basically a feature that will be used mostly in pvp. In pvp, one of the most important things to your ships survival is its cap. Every serious pvper will get EM to V anyway. Anyone that doesn't want to train EM to level V is simply someone that sees heat as a new gimmick that he wants to try out without much time involved. They aren't really going to use heat at all (and in fact will probably whine when their modules offline while they were playing around with it). Edit: Every lvl IV mission runner has also had cap issues, and many have trained this skill as well. Yeah, you can permaboost a tank with a 800 million isk booster, but for us poorer folk, we don't have faction fittings, and need all the cap we can get to keep that tank going. At 5-6 mil SP, there's still much more useful skills to train. And if you want to boost your cap higher then the mandatory IV/IV levels, you train energy systems operation to V, since it gives you much more of a bonus then EM V at 1/3rd of training time. A serious PvP-er doesn't need EM V that much as he needs T2 guns / T2 tank / high navigation skills / fitting skills / tanking skills and so on. Unless he's Amarr, but then he's not being serious. You're going to cap inject if you use cap and run the risk of being nossed, and you know it, because no amount of skill will help much against NOS. At 12 mil SP, yes, EM V is something you should definitely train. Under that, you're an idiot if you'll take EM V over T2 guns, T2 tank, nav skills, fitting skills, so on and on. Plus, I'm quite sure that 'cannot be used on trial accounts' and a EM IV requirement would've been good, since it's a damn UI option. Maybe even using basic overloading without any skills, so it can be covered in the tutorial. Edit: by the way, some people don't wait to have 15mil SP to go PvPing. That's how empire carebears do it.

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