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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.13 00:54:00 -
[301]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf The Megathron can be fitted to deal around 700 DPS from medium range, it's not as good as most Amarr ships but it's what I have. I find It rather entertaining to have close-range obsessed opponents tackled while bombarding them with high damage from beyond their range.
It's something I developed a taste for when I was training up my Caldari ships and it works. Even if the gang jumps through a gate into a camp, provided you don't get really
Certainly we can contemplate any number of scenarios where, with support, any other ship may do well.
But on balance any other ship that is tackled has more remaining ability than an Amarr ship. Tackle a Gallente ship and they have their drones. Tackle a Caldari ship and they have their missiles which are immune to things like tracking disruptors and can fire FoF. Tackling a Minmatar ship is harder due to their inherent speed and with split weapon systems then can likely still do something. ALL of those have more mid slots to fend off tacklers and tackle them right back.
Think of it this way. You are goind into an OP where the opponent is fielding 10 Scorpions or 10 Typhoons or 10 Dominixes or 10 Armageddons. Which of that lot do you think would be easiest to counter? For my money the Armas, even one of the best ships Amarr have to offer, would be simplest to counter. Everyone else in that list will give you fits.
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Im Dumb
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Posted - 2007.11.13 00:55:00 -
[302]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Im Dumb [Minmatar have no advantage over Amarr when it comes to resist look at the Zelot with its 80 explosive resist and 60 EM the Minmatar top 2 damage types. I also dont wanna see any changes made to Amarr that could brake another part of the game.
Minmatar do have an advantage in that they CAN choose ammo for their guns that does differing damage not to mention they usually have split weapons systems with missiles also allowing them to change up ammo to best effect. Add in that they, of all races, are masters at controlling range and the ball is firmly in their court.
Amarr can do what to change things up on Minmatar exactly?
I have two main chars each 2 months apart mini is 28mill Amarr is 27mill. So I know them both well. Mini can use a diffrent ammo to change up its damage type but it takes a total damage loss to do this. All mini ammo is not made the same. So changing ammo to find a hole in resist doesnt always work if your doing less damage to begin with.
As for the split missle systems other then the phoon huggin and rapier they are not split they just have a few missle slots. And if they did take advantage of all the missles and not sure all turrets they take a DPS drop for it. Everything as its trade offs.
And they are indeed the speed rance. Sadly they are also a point blank race. or a low DPS race. If they use damage ammo they are point blank and webbed so no more speed. If they fit barrage and use there falloff they are a low DPS race.
Minmatar are pretty balanced.
Amarr however are totaly gimped. Mini will beat Amarr but not because of resists they will out last them with cap.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.13 01:04:00 -
[303]
Originally by: Im Dumb I have two main chars each 2 months apart mini is 28mill Amarr is 27mill. So I know them both well. Mini can use a diffrent ammo to change up its damage type but it takes a total damage loss to do this. All mini ammo is not made the same. So changing ammo to find a hole in resist doesnt always work if your doing less damage to begin with.
Point is they have options. Whether a more damaging ammo is better versus better resists or a lower damaging ammo against weaker resists is better is something for you, the pilot, to figure out. Not to mention the option may well allow you to stay out of effective laser range. You may do less damage but controlling the range battle is a pure win for Minmatar even if that means taking a bit longer to drop their Amarr Nemesis.
Having an Amarr and a Minmatar on the same account should nuke your credit card...or something.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.13 01:05:00 -
[304]
since it feels like I haven't said it in ages...
NERF AMARR!
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/11/2007 21:34:44 *EDIT* You know what, Tortun has this one under control...*
*Basks in the chaos of this thread |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.13 01:09:00 -
[305]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 13/11/2007 01:09:09
Originally by: Tortun Nahme since it feels like I haven't said it in ages...
NERF AMARR!
No need to say it. As bad as Amarr suck CCP has continued nerfing them left and right the last few months. What good ships Amarr had are almost totally borked leaving them with nothing.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.13 01:32:00 -
[306]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 13/11/2007 01:35:56
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Certainly we can contemplate any number of scenarios where, with support, any other ship may do well.
But none do as well in this role as Amarr.
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Tackle a Gallente ship and they have their drones.
Kill the drones, even without the drone scoop nerf they won't do too well 45km from their parent ship.
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Tackle a Caldari ship and they have their missiles which are immune to things like tracking disruptors and can fire FoF.
You mean cruise missiles? Because torps no longer reach beyond approx 25km (30km is the stat but targets move and missiles need to accelerate) Your telling me that the Cruise missiles, that almost no one will fit, are going to be doing comparable damage to your lasers. Don't even go there with FoF missiles, first they are cruise so the damage is negligible second they have a tendency to go after drones or supporting teammates. As a final point cruise are not a close-combat weapon system.
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Tackling a Minmatar ship is harder due to their inherent speed and with split weapon systems then can likely still do something.
Speed is irrelevant unless we're talking about smaller class ship compared to your battlegroup. Since tacklers tend to be frigates or 'ceptors the only advantage is when they use frigates and 'ceptors themselves in which case some of them may actually escape. The split layout won't help at all since neither auto's nor torps will reach out to the med-range ships
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
ALL of those have more mid slots to fend off tacklers and tackle them right back.
Hyena's, Rapiers, Huginns. Plus if I have to sacrifice a couple of t1 frigates to kill a few battleships I call that a good engagement.
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Think of it this way. You are goind into an OP where the opponent is fielding 10 Scorpions or 10 Typhoons or 10 Dominixes or 10 Armageddons. Which of that lot do you think would be easiest to counter? For my money the Armas, even one of the best ships Amarr have to offer, would be simplest to counter. Everyone else in that list will give you fits.
The scorpions would melt from drone damage, FoF's, or just missing a cycle or two. Yes I'd bring cruise if the intel was good. The Typhoons are easy to jam. The Dominix's are nothing once their drones are dead.
None of these ships with close-range fitting is going to be able to reach the Armageddons if tackling is good, those who do will still face the incoming fire of all the geddons regardless of whether or not the Amarr have been tackled.
Even if we were talking long-range set-ups on the enemy ships the Amarr ships will still do more damage. No matter what races, roles, or ranges your gang is made up of the way to win will be making the most of their strengths, exploiting the enemies weaknesses and perhaps most importantly controlling the battle.
If your close-range and can't get there.. your dead. If your medium/long range and can't keep them off you... your dead (though not so much as the close-range ships you still have support).
It's balance.
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Im Dumb
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Posted - 2007.11.13 01:44:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
ALL of those have more mid slots to fend off tacklers and tackle them right back.
Hyena's, Rapiers, Huginns. Plus if I have to sacrifice a couple of t1 frigates to kill a few battleships I call that a good engagement.
Those are all minmitar ships not Amarr. The Amarr have Sentinel, Pilgrim, Curse. And they are all horable with the new NOS.
And for all your other points I agree on some of it thats why I wanna stick with the 4 basic changes of ship cap use bonouse, fitting, wep cap use, and to a lesser dagree damage buff.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.13 01:57:00 -
[308]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 13/11/2007 01:35:56
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Certainly we can contemplate any number of scenarios where, with support, any other ship may do well.
But none do as well in this role as Amarr.
How so? I'm not seeing it but as clever as I like to think I am I'll allow I am missing something here.
Quote:
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Tackle a Gallente ship and they have their drones.
Kill the drones, even without the drone scoop nerf they won't do too well 45km from their parent ship.
Point is they have that extra option. Yes Amarr have drones but the Gallente drones are FAR better. It adds to Gallente flexibility in a wayt wholly unavailable to the Amarr.
Quote:
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Tackle a Caldari ship and they have their missiles which are immune to things like tracking disruptors and can fire FoF.
You mean cruise missiles? Because torps no longer reach beyond approx 25km (30km is the stat but targets move and missiles need to accelerate) Your telling me that the Cruise missiles, that almost no one will fit, are going to be doing comparable damage to your lasers. Don't even go there with FoF missiles, first they are cruise so the damage is negligible second they have a tendency to go after drones or supporting teammates. As a final point cruise are not a close-combat weapon system.
This is an age old argument over whether missiles with guaranteed damage versus tracking issues wins. Personally I think there is a LOT to be said for guaranteed hits/damage even if that damage is lower than an idealized turret. They can hit the same at max range as point blank and are immune to tracking EW. That is no small thing. At the least it clears up the tactical situation for missile users...they have a lot less to consider in their gameplay.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.13 02:03:00 -
[309]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 13/11/2007 02:03:34
Quote:
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Think of it this way. You are goind into an OP where the opponent is fielding 10 Scorpions or 10 Typhoons or 10 Dominixes or 10 Armageddons. Which of that lot do you think would be easiest to counter? For my money the Armas, even one of the best ships Amarr have to offer, would be simplest to counter. Everyone else in that list will give you fits.
The scorpions would melt from drone damage, FoF's, or just missing a cycle or two. Yes I'd bring cruise if the intel was good. The Typhoons are easy to jam. The Dominix's are nothing once their drones are dead.
Interesting you poo pooed FOF's earlier and now use them to support your argument. Good or bad pick a side.
And yes Scorps can go down fast but they can cause so much trouble they are usually primaried. Low DPS sure but they can ruin opponents...they need ot die and quick and their meltability is their balance. Got no problems with the Scorp but I guarantee I give it attention when I see it...more than pretty much any other sub-cap ship.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.13 02:04:00 -
[310]
I already mentioned that the game is obviously balanced for mixed fleet tactics.
There is no unwritten law stating that if you field mid-range battleships (Amarr of otherwise) that you cannot field minmatar tacklers indeed their pretty much essential to any gang these days due to the prevelence of speed-gangs. Not that it really matters as frigates of any race will happily perform much the same task, merely not as well. Though of course anything other than Minmatar will be useless vs speed-gangs but that's another topic entirely.
I would have thought Amarr specced players would be more aware of med-range tactics and their application, their advantages and disadvantages. I feel like a carpenter teaching an old lady to knit.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.13 02:08:00 -
[311]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 13/11/2007 02:12:11
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Interesting you poo pooed FOF's earlier and now use them to support your argument. Good or bad pick a side.
Fascinating isn't it. They're awful. But if your jammed they're better than nothing and if I knew a gang of 10 scorpions (lol) was coming I'd be crazy not to fit them.
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
And yes Scorps can go down fast but they can cause so much trouble they are usually primaried. Low DPS sure but they can ruin opponents...they need ot die and quick and their meltability is their balance. Got no problems with the Scorp but I guarantee I give it attention when I see it...more than pretty much any other sub-cap ship.
The Scorp is only really an issue if it's jamming your linch-pin ships while their damage dealers are still hammering away at you.
Can we be moving back to Amarr instead of trying to pick my every point apart?
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shinsushi
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Posted - 2007.11.13 02:13:00 -
[312]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf ....
So, why would anyone stick around @ 25+km? Warp out, then back in on top of your enemy since warp to zero means no 15km crawl (another amarr nerf btw.)
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. |
Im Dumb
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Posted - 2007.11.13 02:35:00 -
[313]
Edited by: Im Dumb on 13/11/2007 02:36:36 I think we all seem to be in agreement that Amarr are broke. What is needed is how to FIX them.
Sadly CCP seems to only think that omni tank is the prob but I think its more then that and alot of you seem to think its more then just omni tank too.
Every race has things to point at that suck about them. Minmitar tanks arent great, target painters as are other EW give me a brake. I can keep going here but the point is that they have other good things about them that balance all these things makeing them a very good fun and competative group.
So rather then list all the things wrong with Amarr or not wrong with Amarr what aspects would you change to fix the brokenness that is them. CCP has asked for this in other posts and hopefully they are reading this one at least. So what is the thing you would do to FIX it.
We know what I want but Ill say it again
Ship weapon cap use needs to turn in to either more cap or better recharge bonouse.
Lasers need to have PG ajusted to make them fitable, on beams mostly but pulse too.
Lasers need to use less cap to make them have fireing times inline with hybrids.
Lasers need a small damage bump to make up for omni tank.
One way to make them use less cap without really changing the crystals is give them a breater damage mod and a slower ROF this gives more volly but less often so same DPS. Then can buff the damage mod a lil more to make up for omni 2 small changes to the date base and fixes alot of Amarr probs.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.13 02:41:00 -
[314]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Can we be moving back to Amarr instead of trying to pick my every point apart?
Well sure...as long as you stop picking very particular circumstances.
Any ship can do well in a gang. My point it that while Amarr may do well it is simpler for other ships to do just as well if not better in a gang. Amarr certainly fail miserably solo. But if Amarr are to be worst solo than balance would suggest that they would be ace in gangs. While good in gangs most any other ship is better.
Let me put it another way and this is something I have asked in multiple threads and seems to be a thread killer because faced with it there is no good rebuttal:
Assume you have L5 skills in EVERYTHING. You are going out to do battle. Is there ANY Amarr ship you would pick before anything else?
The only ships I can think worth opting for in very specific circumstances would be a Guardian or a Damnation...maybe a Crusader for anti-inty work.
Beyond those would you ever choose ANY Amarr ship? Pretend you are in a tournament and laid down $1,000 of your own cash. Going for any Anarr ship in that circumstance?
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.13 03:12:00 -
[315]
I'd chose that Abaddon set-up I posted over a Domi, Mega, or Hype any day of the week if I had a full set of level 5 skills.
Now I'm tired of trying to argue people round to the fact that medium range combat actually exists and Amarr are ace at it. So we'll leave that and agree to disagree since we're getting nowhere.
I'm not saying Amarr don't need a buff. What I am saying is that Amarr only need a small buff and they certainly don't need their entire tactical forte and style rethought after so many years of people using the ships. It'd be like doing something crazy like limiting carrier to only five drones or something.
If you trained Amarr and don't like, or don't even believe in, mid-range combat then you've made a similar kind of mistake to someone who trained Caldari doesn't like med/long range combat or trained Gallente and doesn't like blasters and drones.
So what do Amarr need "more" of to better in their role?
It's not damage, they have oodles for their range bracket. It's not tracking, again it's fine for their range. It's not hitpoints, they're already doing a fine job there. It's not capacitor as I've fought and toyed with perfectly fine set-ups provided you don't try to do everything on one ship.
So what is it.
Other than the Crapocalypse needing to actually be good at something.
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
Sofring Eternus
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.11.13 03:30:00 -
[316]
Seriously guys, its not the ships. Its the Lasers.
People will say, the Arbitrator is a great Amarr cruiser, Amarr say thats because its Gallente-lite. People will say that the Khanid ships are solid, Amarr say thats because its Diet Caldari.
The Amarr ships are a solid design concept. Lots of turrets, lots of low slots, balanced by being slow and having limited mids. (I for one would love to see the spare high slots turned into lows for better tanks and ganks. Or maybe an extra med slot for ships that truly hurt for meds and already have lots of lows.)
Lasers are balanced too, but how can this be? I just said Lasers were at fault for the Amarr woes. Well thats because balanced is relative. All the turrets are relatively equal. Nerf one stat by 25% and buff another by an equal amount. You can actually apply that to all 3 turret types and they come out close to equal. The problem is, what are you giving up for what gains? Well Pulse give everything up for MOAR RANGE! *ahem* they give up tracking, falloff, and cap use. Beams give everything up for MOAR DAMAGE! and some tracking please. They give up a bit of range, some falloff, lots of cap use, and lots of powergrid.
So if we want to improve the energy turrets, we need to trade in some of the benefits to remove some of the disadvantages. (or at least reduce them to bring them close flavor wise to the other turrets). I've outlined my own preferences earlier in the thread.
Of course, your not going to see the developers suggest to the Amarr playerbase that they need to give up an advantage to negate the disadvantages. The forums would burn hotter than the deepest pit of hades with all the flames and counter flames. --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ Amarr dont need Grr... and RAWR is definately too much, but some Oomph would be nice. |
Im Dumb
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Posted - 2007.11.13 03:42:00 -
[317]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf It's not damage, they have oodles for their range bracket. It's not tracking, again it's fine for their range. It's not hitpoints, they're already doing a fine job there. It's not capacitor as I've fought and toyed with perfectly fine set-ups provided you don't try to do everything on one ship.
So what is it.
Other than the Crapocalypse needing to actually be good at something.
So what is it? You say its not damage, I think its part but not a big part. Not hitpoints I agree not tracking I also agree.
When it comes to cap your wrong tho.
With perfect skills using conflag and void ammo Mega pulse use 47% more cap then Nuets, and do 50% more damage. Now most of that damage is EM so after resist Neuts do more damage. But all of that is not a big problem. This is the problem a fully loaded Mega can run his 7 Neuts 398% longer then a Gedon can run his Mega Pulse. So the DPS of a Gedon might be higher then the Mega very shortly that damage turns into ZERO.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.11.13 03:46:00 -
[318]
Originally by: Daelin BlackleafSo what do Amarr need "more" of to better in their role?
It's not damage, they have oodles for their range bracket. It's not tracking, again it's fine for their range. It's not hitpoints, they're already doing a fine job there. It's not capacitor as I've fought and toyed with perfectly fine set-ups provided you don't try to do everything on one ship.
So what is it.
Other than the Crapocalypse needing to actually be good at something. [:D
Crapocalypse is an issue unto its own.
- Damage for their range bracket? Amarr need to keep enemies in a VERY narrow window to do well. They have generally slow ships and an MWD is almost totally out of the picture for them. Pretty much an enemy they will face either wants to get close and personal or keep range. The time Amarr get their licks in at their ideal range is minimal and Amarr have almost no hope of changing that.
- Amarr have the WORST tracking at close range. Period. They have the best traking with long range weapons but the shortest range of long range weapons. Where does that help them? Someone gets close their better tracking long range weapons is not that good and they are screwed anyway. Their worse tracking short range weapons screws them again.
- Hitpoints are good but not everything. A damage sink is worthless if it can make no trouble for the enemy. Further, if you look at tanks in EVE Amarr are not tops. What's more is those better tanked ships often do more DPS as well or close enough as to make no odds. Except for the Damnation I do not think the Amarr have the best tank in any class (heard the Vultire may be better tank wise).
- You'd THINK Amarr would wail in capacitor. They do not. What really gets me is even the new Marauder class ship are actually equal in cap. Messed up. Cap race? Where? Show me.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.13 03:52:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Sofring Eternus
So if we want to improve the energy turrets, we need to trade in some of the benefits to remove some of the disadvantages. (or at least reduce them to bring them close flavor wise to the other turrets).
Logic
In this thread....
It's more likely than you think.
But I'd still consider fixing the small issue of base 90% reists to EM before looking at the weapon system itself. You also want to consider the fact that if you shift the bonuses too far towards the norm you end up with hybrids with prettier effects.
..and why with the complaining about Pulse cap use!
Or is it that I should be joining arms with you and complaining about Blaster cap use too?
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
Im Dumb
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Posted - 2007.11.13 03:53:00 -
[320]
Originally by: Im Dumb
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf It's not damage, they have oodles for their range bracket. It's not tracking, again it's fine for their range. It's not hitpoints, they're already doing a fine job there. It's not capacitor as I've fought and toyed with perfectly fine set-ups provided you don't try to do everything on one ship.
So what is it.
Other than the Crapocalypse needing to actually be good at something.
So what is it? You say its not damage, I think its part but not a big part. Not hitpoints I agree not tracking I also agree.
When it comes to cap your wrong tho.
With perfect skills using conflag and void ammo Mega pulse use 47% more cap then Nuets, and do 50% more damage. Now most of that damage is EM so after resist Neuts do more damage. But all of that is not a big problem. This is the problem a fully loaded Mega can run his 7 Neuts 398% longer then a Gedon can run his Mega Pulse. So the DPS of a Gedon might be higher then the Mega very shortly that damage turns into ZERO.
Holy crap point score me I win I JUST MADE A HUGE MISTAKE. When I was doing all that I forgot I had 5 Orger IIs in the Gedon so here are the real and even worse stats
With all of that same stuff Mega pulse on Gedon use 47% more cap and do 27% less damage and Neuts run 398% longer. So tell me you still think damage isnt a problem? Or is 47% more cap and 27% less damage worth an extra 10k range?
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daemorhedron
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Posted - 2007.11.13 03:55:00 -
[321]
Finally some constructive progress in this thread. I'd like to thank Daelin Blackleaf, Sofring Eternus and Imperator Jora'h in particular for providing well reasoned, contemplative and constructive posts from a multitude of angles.
Originally by: Sofring Eternus Seriously guys, its not the ships. Its the Lasers.
Yep, great point. Personally I'm all for a reworking of lasers, so long as it's kept balanced and unique. Where most of us would seem to disagree is just how to accomplish that. People seem to want to deny the fact that you can't fit amarr ships the same way as you can <insert race here> because you're not supposed to. You're supposed to be laser spouting armored bricks of death in space, especially in the battleship class.
Majority of people do seem to agree that amarr could do with a boost. Majority of those people also seem to agree that lasers are tough to fit and that the laser cap reduction 'bonus' on amarr ships needs to be adjusted. I myself have conceded those points, and would love to see them get addressed properly. Reworking fitting and cap reqs without relying on the amarr ship bonus would mean that you might finally see them on other ships as well. Win/win imo.
Someone mentioned the amarr are supposed to be the 'cap' race. I believe that's true, and their recons pretty much seal that as fact. I'm all for a nos/neut bonus replacement except that it will pretty much move us back into the dark ages before the nos nerf, just with amarr ships using them. I'm not sure how it could be done fairly so that amarr recons at the very least reclaimed their birthright and yet not have people screaming bloody murder at nos, but we've pretty much gone from nos being needed on every setup to an extreme rarity. Achieving a middleground where they were useful to amarr, but not an 'i win' button would be a perfect solution imo. The nos/neut range also fits in perfectly with the amarr design, so it seems a logical choice.
As for the minmatar speed/high EM resist argument, well frankly....backstory. These are your nemesis for a reason, and I would be interested in a unique solution that maintained the backstory, was balanced, and maintained the mythos of EVE. High EM resists on armor in general for me is a non issue. You're shield killers. Don't fly alone, I don't do it in any ship regardless of race or class because no ship should be completely self sufficient.
When used properly, a group of amarr only ships are absolutely deadly in a small gang of as little as two or three.
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Other than the Crapocalypse needing to actually be good at something.
Hey, that's one of my fav ships you're talking about there buddy. =)
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Im Dumb
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Posted - 2007.11.13 03:59:00 -
[322]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Originally by: Sofring Eternus
So if we want to improve the energy turrets, we need to trade in some of the benefits to remove some of the disadvantages. (or at least reduce them to bring them close flavor wise to the other turrets).
Logic
In this thread....
It's more likely than you think.
But I'd still consider fixing the small issue of base 90% reists to EM before looking at the weapon system itself. You also want to consider the fact that if you shift the bonuses too far towards the norm you end up with hybrids with prettier effects.
..and why with the complaining about Pulse cap use!
Or is it that I should be joining arms with you and complaining about Blaster cap use too?
That 90% is on armor of minmitar ships that you shield tank just like the armor tanked Zelot has 90% explosive resist on its shields. The only Armor tanked mini ship that has 90% EM is the Munnin and I would love for those resists to be changed 92.5/67.5/25/10. I think its the hardest T2 ship in the game to put a good tank on. Oh also the wolf but it has same resists as Munnin with even fewer lows to fill the gaps. Everyone has ups and downs.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.13 04:32:00 -
[323]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 13/11/2007 04:33:17
Originally by: Im Dumb
With all of that same stuff Mega pulse on Gedon use 47% more cap and do 27% less damage and Neuts run 398% longer. So tell me you still think damage isnt a problem? Or is 47% more cap and 27% less damage worth an extra 10k range?
Your using a biased example with the geddon. Also you may want to consider that most blasterboat pilots don't use t2 ammo and prefer faction.
Originally by: Im Dumb
Now most of that damage is EM so after resist Neuts do more damage.
I've heard this somewhere before.
Originally by: Im Dumb But all of that is not a big problem. This is the problem a fully loaded Mega can run his 7 Neuts 398% longer then a Gedon can run his Mega Pulse. So the DPS of a Gedon might be higher then the Mega very shortly that damage turns into ZERO.
Again your using the geddon, it has a RoF bonus, it is going to eat cap. Compensate for that or use a different ship.
With triple HS and the Mega Pulse running you'll get 4m14s out of it. That's without adding an injector or cap mods. Theres still room for a small hitpoint tank. Or are you trying to run an active tank and mega-pulses again? Remeber this is a tier-1 ship if you go all out and fit Mega pulse your going to hurt the fitting left for your tank. In a similar vein I wouldn't try fitting neutrons on a Domi. Indeed you'll have a hard time getting a rack of Ions on there if you plan to tank anything. (Solution 4x mediums and 2x large No rly)
Originally by: Im Dumb
That 90% is on armor of minmitar ships that you shield tank just like the armor tanked Zelot has 90% explosive resist on its shields
Would all the Amarrians shield tanking their Zealot please raise their right hand.
Let's see now, Minmatar ships with what I would call t2 resists and their EM resistance.
Jaguar: 92.5% Wolf 92.5%
Muninn: 92.5% Vagabond: 92.5%
Claymore 92.5% Sleipnir 88.75%
Scimitar 92.5%
Huginn 88.75%
I'm gonna stop here but you see the trend. Even the ceptors and cheetah get 80%.
@ daemorhedron
Would you be so kind as to share your set-up? I'd love to see a good Apoc set-up I haven't toyed with it much... I confess I've been listening to the bad-press about it.
Also thanks for the compliment, they're few and far between round these parts.
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.13 04:46:00 -
[324]
Originally by: Sofring Eternus Seriously guys, its not the ships. Its the Lasers.
No, its both. First off, the cruisers, and frigates suck, and they suck no matter how you boost lasers. The Harbinger is O.K. the Geddon is fine for the most part[due to its large drone bay making almost 25% of its DPS explosive or thermal.
To put it simple:
Damage relative to hit points is a percentage based advantage.
Range relative to speed is a absolute based advantage.
As ships get larger and slower the range advantage increases, and as they get smaller and faster the range advantage decreases.
In a gang: The primaries velocity is largly unimportant, it will get webbed and then you start to add your DPS up.
So for a laser ship to be balanced with a blaster ship, the smaller and faster they become, the laser ship has to do closer to the blaster ships dps, because the difference between a neutron blaster and a heavy pulse laser is 5000m, and a thorax travels 2000m/s. So a thorax closes to a target and starts doing its DPS 2.5 second after the laser ship assuming the laser ship was in range to start. So then, if we have the neutron ship doing 16% more dps than the pulse ship[same drones, same bonuses, same turrets]. The neutron ship catches up in dps in 15 seconds.
Now lets look at a battleship. If the neutron ship does 16% more dps, has to travel 10km instead of 5km, and only goes 1km/s the neutron ship is disadvantaged by four times as much and it takes 60 seconds for him to overcome the advantage of the laser ship.
Now, this assumes they are doing the same damage types and doing the same damage. This is pretty much how it holds up for the Geddon shooting Conflag against the Mega shooting AN Antimatter, after drones, the extra heat sink, and resistances, the Geddon isnt really doing all that much less dps than the Megathron. So the Megtrhon catches up. In a one on one situation at optimals a Geddon will destroy a Mega in 114 seconds and the Mega will destroy that same Mega in 106 seconds[mega would destroy a Geddon in 94 seconds]. This ignores tracking which hurts the Geddon more[it needs conflag to do good dps agianst armor, the Mega actually does better with faction ammo than tech 2 against armor except gallente armor], but all in all, its about balanced.
The Maller and Thorax? Not balanced in the slightest.
As for the people who are saying Amarr shouldnt be a DPS race, you are wrong. Amarr should exactly be a DPS race. They should be, along with Caldari, the ship that you want to bring to provide primary DPS for a small gang. Right now the best small-med gang DPS race is Caldari[after the torp cahanges it will be so on the battelship level as well]. Even at med ranges. Missiles travel much faster than ships and have perfect agility, consistantly do more dps due to tracking, and can load variable damage types[but have a good damage type boosted as well], and have great range. They can also provide ewar, but that is another issue.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.13 04:57:00 -
[325]
Originally by: Goumindong
So for a laser ship to be balanced with a blaster ship, the smaller and faster they become, the laser ship has to do closer to the blaster ships dps.
That's a very good point I honestly hadn't considered.
Also I have Caldari BS V and the new torps scare me. Why, because they will fill both the close and med range role better than any other weapon type. Kiss auto's, lasers, and blasters goodbye. We are entering the age of the torpedo. This will make combat rather boring.
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
Esmerelle
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Posted - 2007.11.13 10:44:00 -
[326]
Originally by: Im Dumb
Minmatar have no advantage over Amarr when it comes to resist look at the Zelot with its 80 explosive resist and 60 EM the Minmatar top 2 damage types. I also dont wanna see any changes made to Amarr that could brake another part of the game.
Whell.....we have advantage in speed, in range and in damage type. (and look an jaguar/wolf resists). I by myself whanna see strong opponents, not weaklings. It just a game. /signed
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Matan Gandi
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Posted - 2007.11.13 11:34:00 -
[327]
Great Thread!
/Signed in all points
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bloomich
Trotter's Independent Traders Co
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Posted - 2007.11.13 11:38:00 -
[328]
Edited by: bloomich on 13/11/2007 11:42:09 Sick of people saying they will cancel their accounts if Amarr dont get fixed?
Let me do the opposite. I uncancelled this account yesterday so I could say that Amarr is Shafted.
I also want to say that the best thing Amarr can do is reduce highslots and increase midslots, with appropriate ship bonus's so ships dont lose out on damage. Eve Beta had a real reason for Amarr to have few mids. Eve 2007, PVP and PvE has changed and this philosophy is broken and needs to be re-evaluated.
I would also like to say that EANM's are NOT A PROBLEM if and ONLY if you have Compensation Skill effect Active harders.
EANM was NEVER a problem before compensation skills, and the fact compensation skills were prenerfed to not effect Active hardners is the real problem. It is the prenerfed compensation skills that need to be fixed so people go back to active hardner setups.
--SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.13 11:44:00 -
[329]
Because Amarr are allegedly the mid-range race, they are the ones who benefit the most from tracking computers boosting both optimal and tracking.
Nerfing TCs so that they boost either tracking or optimal rather than both hurts Amarr ships more than others.
For example, someone using blasters won't care about boosting their optimal range because it's so small to start with. They'll just fit a tracking script and be as good as they were before. Someone fitting mega pulses feels the benefit of increased optimal and tracking, but now they'll have to choose between the two.
It looks like oomph is the sound made by Amarrians being repeatedly kicked in the ribs.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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bloomich
Trotter's Independent Traders Co
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Posted - 2007.11.13 11:57:00 -
[330]
Edited by: bloomich on 13/11/2007 11:58:08
Originally by: Rodj Blake Because Amarr are allegedly the mid-range race, they are the ones who benefit the most from tracking computers boosting both optimal and tracking.
Nerfing TCs so that they boost either tracking or optimal rather than both hurts Amarr ships more than others.
For example, someone using blasters won't care about boosting their optimal range because it's so small to start with. They'll just fit a tracking script and be as good as they were before. Someone fitting mega pulses feels the benefit of increased optimal and tracking, but now they'll have to choose between the two.
It looks like oomph is the sound made by Amarrians being repeatedly kicked in the ribs.
I have no idea what CCP's long term plans are, but they sucseeded in nerfing every viable Amarr ship.
Now Amarr Nos got nerfed because people in Gallente Doneboats abused it. Now Tracking Disrupters, the most useless of all racial EW, is being nefed as a half assed fix for Gallente EW. I mean, have you ever seen anyone complain about Tracking Disrupters in real eve pvp before?
Now the most effective use of a curse is a cerebus alternative to solo lvl4's. A Pilgrim's best use is to act as a cov ops that can take a smartbomb blast.
I cannot beleive it, but CCP have nerfed anything decent about Amarr. They may as well just delete the race and get it over and done with.
--SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that. |
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