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bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.11.17 21:24:00 - [421] Originally by: PeacefullNub Another portion of solutions - just dreaming :) Firstly - removing "-laser cap use" and giving real second bonus, so that u can fly and shoot without 4-5 lvl of ship. many topic readers agreed that we need this boost just to stay in line with another racial ships. 1)new pulse lasers tactics - rapid fire weapon low to med range a)-50% damdgemod -50% rof (same dps - but greater speed and cap use) b)-120% capasitor use per shot (-50% to balance ship bonus - 50% to balance increased cap consumption, -20 minior boost). c)-25% weapon signature resolution (better tracking vs smaller targets) d)slightly reduced optimal and increased fallof (but opt+2fallof still same as today) 2)new beam lasers tactics - slow med to long range weapon a)+60% damagemod +60% rof (same dps, best instant damage, -60% cap usage - still greater than rails) b)slightly increased optimal and greatly (to lvl of pulses)decreased fallof (greater boost from track comp - but shoter randge without it) c)and some fixes in t2 pulse/beam crystalls (according new rof and optimal) Easier Fix. 1. Unnerf the prenerfed Armour Compensation Skills so they effect active hardners as well. People will switch back to active setups insted of EANM. Laser damage back to pre-Red Moon Rising expantion balance. 2. Remove useless Overnerf on laser fittings & Cap usage 3. Change lasers to be competitive in todays PvP - I.E Close range or long range. --SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.17 21:35:00 - [422] You keep saying that, and it keeps being stupid. It would break the game.
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.11.17 21:39:00 - [423] Edited by: bloomich on 17/11/2007 21:40:00 Originally by: Goumindong You keep saying that, and it keeps being stupid. It would break the game. I say it because it is correct. before compensation skills, EANM was never a problem. Only After compensation skills EAMN became a problem. So insted of unnerfing compensation skills so people use the pre-rmr setups (that laser damage WAS balanced with) we have this half-assed EAMN logic going on. Lets nerf EAMN or boost Lasers etc insted of fixing the problem which was Compensation skills. A bit like saying the car is broken because there is no petrol in the tank. --SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that.
Pinpisa Jormao	Posted - 2007.11.17 21:52:00 - [424] Signed and Amarr T1 CRUISERS also need work. I started Amarr and am now Minmatar/Gallente spec because the only good Amarr ship is the Revelation.
NoobALTS	Posted - 2007.11.17 23:25:00 - [425] Originally by: Pinpisa Jormao Signed and Amarr T1 CRUISERS also need work. I started Amarr and am now Minmatar/Gallente spec because the only good Amarr ship is the Revelation. All Amarr ships need work. The only exception are Revelation - Because all it is good for is shooting pos! It misses a freightor orbiting it! lol Sacreldge - Because ccp fixed it TO NOT USE LASERS! Malediction - As above Heretic - As above, but will be the first ship killed in any combat because its a dictor so stats do not matter much. Avatar - Well, only the cap bonus makes this decent, otherwise slot layots of other titans are far better. All the rest of Amarr ships, especially those that use broken lasers, need to be fixed asap.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.11.18 00:41:00 - [426] Originally by: SecondChance Originally by: SiJira amarr are balanced you just need to know what to do with them Whell -if it is a balance of style and design vs ingame effectivnes... i agree - from that poin we ballanced.At least that is one point why someone still playing amarrs Originally by: Lisento Slaven Originally by: SiJira amarr are balanced you just need to know what to do with them This is entirely true. What you need to do with them is use the armageddon, abaddon, harbinger, absolution, or sacrilege. There you go...that's how to play as Amarr =P oh you guys are hilarious ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Ivanna Logoffski	Posted - 2007.11.18 01:02:00 - [427] Originally by: NoobALTS All Amarr ships need work. The only exception are Revelation - Because all it is good for is shooting pos! It misses a freightor orbiting it! lol Sacreldge - Because ccp fixed it TO NOT USE LASERS! Malediction - As above Heretic - As above, but will be the first ship killed in any combat because its a dictor so stats do not matter much. Avatar - Well, only the cap bonus makes this decent, otherwise slot layots of other titans are far better. All the rest of Amarr ships, especially those that use broken lasers, need to be fixed asap. Just fit Artillery or Autocannons on them and you have insane amount of cap left to run a tank.. Stop whining and think instead.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.18 06:23:00 - [428] Originally by: Ivanna Logoffski Just fit Artillery or Autocannons on them and you have insane amount of cap left to run a tank.. Stop whining and think instead. Brothers! I see the light! We must forget about ship bonuses compleatly and use another weapons. NO! We must forget about our ships and cross-train another race! Wait a minute - it is what we doing allready. "Stop whining and think instead" Dissmissed.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.18 08:55:00 - [429] Originally by: bloomich Edited by: bloomich on 17/11/2007 21:40:00 Originally by: Goumindong You keep saying that, and it keeps being stupid. It would break the game. I say it because it is correct. before compensation skills, EANM was never a problem. Only After compensation skills EAMN became a problem. So insted of unnerfing compensation skills so people use the pre-rmr setups (that laser damage WAS balanced with) we have this half-assed EAMN logic going on. Lets nerf EAMN or boost Lasers etc insted of fixing the problem which was Compensation skills. A bit like saying the car is broken because there is no petrol in the tank. You want to see 37.5% invulns as the base? You want specific hardeners to be 68.75%? It would break the game
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.11.18 09:41:00 - [430] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: bloomich Edited by: bloomich on 17/11/2007 21:40:00 Originally by: Goumindong You keep saying that, and it keeps being stupid. It would break the game. I say it because it is correct. before compensation skills, EANM was never a problem. Only After compensation skills EAMN became a problem. So insted of unnerfing compensation skills so people use the pre-rmr setups (that laser damage WAS balanced with) we have this half-assed EAMN logic going on. Lets nerf EAMN or boost Lasers etc insted of fixing the problem which was Compensation skills. A bit like saying the car is broken because there is no petrol in the tank. You want to see 37.5% invulns as the base? You want specific hardeners to be 68.75%? It would break the game Modules will break the game? Do 64% core-x mods that exist currently break the game? Would it would break the game like Armour compensation skills did? How about removing Armour compensation skills altogether and then people will go back to active setups. Then Amarr Laser damage will be balanced. You are the type of person who would have said CCC rigs would have broke the game before they were introduced. Boosting Armour compensation skills to effect active hardners fix's Laser damage overnight, as active hardners become more valuble again insted of EANM. Look at pre- red moon rising expantion pack. EAMN's were almost never used, perhaps as a filler to the last slot. Then Armour compensation skills boosted EANM to epic proportions, thus breaking Amarr lasers and EM as a viable damagetype. T2 Ammo came in and meant that people could snipe at long ranges without filling their lows with 4+ tracking enhancers and hence the plated snipers were born which further made Amarr lasers less efficient. --SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that.

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.18 10:36:00 - [431] A lot of things happened in red moon that changed the way lasers performed, EANMs arent that big of a deal. But yes, having easily available 69% hardeners and 37.5% invluns would break the game. Blasters and Autocannons would become worthless overnight.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.18 11:09:00 - [432] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: bloomich Edited by: bloomich on 17/11/2007 21:40:00 Originally by: Goumindong You keep saying that, and it keeps being stupid. It would break the game. I say it because it is correct. before compensation skills, EANM was never a problem. Only After compensation skills EAMN became a problem. So insted of unnerfing compensation skills so people use the pre-rmr setups (that laser damage WAS balanced with) we have this half-assed EAMN logic going on. Lets nerf EAMN or boost Lasers etc insted of fixing the problem which was Compensation skills. A bit like saying the car is broken because there is no petrol in the tank. You want to see 37.5% invulns as the base? You want specific hardeners to be 68.75%? It would break the game Well, no where he said the percentage bonus must be the same :) T2 HArdeners reachign 60% would probably "solve the issue" If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Tarron Sarek Gallente Endica Enterprises Alternative Realities	Posted - 2007.11.18 11:10:00 - [433] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 18/11/2007 11:15:24 Originally by: Bellum Eternus I read through it all. You're doing it wrong. Stop playing Eve in EFT and start playing Eve on TQ. All of your theoretical maximums and paper analysis is completely useless and has no validity. You're forcing each ship to use theoretical setups in order to establish a 'baseline' that is fictional and unrealistic. Each ship will be fit/tuned to it's specific strengths and weaknesses. Again, your theories are invalid and without basis. Exactly my thoughts. While I agree that Amarr needs some boost, I doubt that comparing rather unrealistic extremes is the right way. It would be better to compare actual working setups instead of theoretical maximums or single aspects. One example that illustrates the problem: if ship A can have more maximum DPS or a better tank than ship B, that still doesn't mean that ship A is better. In a well rounded setup ship B might even be stronger. Edit: stupid typo.. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.18 11:25:00 - [434] Originally by: Tarron Sarek While I agree that Amarr needs some boost, I doubt that comparing rather unrealistic extremes is the right way. It would be better to compare actual working setups instead of theoretical maximums or single aspects. One example that illustrates the problem: if ship A can have more maximum DPS or a better tank than ship B, that still doesn't mean that ship A is better. In a well rounded setup ship B might even be stronger. Well said. It's not so much that 'amarr' needs a few tweaks so much as lasers in general do. With better fittings, cap usage that didn't come pre nerfed, you'd start to see more people using them in general, which would be a great thing. Then amarr ships would just need a proper bonus instead of laser cap usage, and everyone wins. I could see the potential for some other small tweaks, but one step at a time.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.18 11:26:00 - [435] Edited by: Goumindong on 18/11/2007 11:31:08 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: bloomich Edited by: bloomich on 17/11/2007 21:40:00 Originally by: Goumindong You keep saying that, and it keeps being stupid. It would break the game. I say it because it is correct. before compensation skills, EANM was never a problem. Only After compensation skills EAMN became a problem. So insted of unnerfing compensation skills so people use the pre-rmr setups (that laser damage WAS balanced with) we have this half-assed EAMN logic going on. Lets nerf EAMN or boost Lasers etc insted of fixing the problem which was Compensation skills. A bit like saying the car is broken because there is no petrol in the tank. You want to see 37.5% invulns as the base? You want specific hardeners to be 68.75%? It would break the game Well, no where he said the percentage bonus must be the same :) T2 HArdeners reachign 60% would probably "solve the issue" And what do you do for invluns? ed: this is even accepting that there "is an issue" with omni tanks as they currently stand, which i really dont think there is. There should be avantages and disadvantages to fitting onmi tanks and not just "the tri-hardened tank is better" or "the omni-tank is better". The only real problem right now is that omni tanks are easier to fit. And that is about it. I mean, right now, Amarran battleships are in about the right spot for where they need to be. Such a change would break them in order to fix the battlecruisers and below, many of which still wouldnt be fixed.
Dalwin	Posted - 2007.11.18 15:30:00 - [436] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Also, please stop claiming my stats are falsified, as they are not. These are the actual calculated figures for the setups I've given. There has been no tampering to give Amarr a worse outcome. If you believe something else should be tested, please put it forward and I will write a response to that. Cheers The folks critisizing the stats are not saying they are falsified. They are saying the ship layouts upon which those stats are based are not realistic. There is a big difference. Even if your stats are accepted at face value, what they say is that the Amarr are not the best at anything. The only thing the stats show Amarr as being worst at is cap.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.11.18 20:18:00 - [437] i gank people with tachyon beams ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.11.19 01:52:00 - [438] Can someone please explain something to me? Ok, why do caldari/minmatar boats have anywhere near the amount of cap-recharge per second as gallente/amarr? Really... their weapons use absolutely no cap, so why should they have anywhere near the amount of cap-recharge per second? "Shield tanking" Is actually more cap efficient than armor tanking with just one amp. "MWDs" Everyone needs to use them, not just caldari/minmatar There is no reason why their cap-recharge rates should be anywhere near similar, none, nada, zilch. No more free ***** lunches man. LEt me put it another way, everyone has to tank, everyone needs to fit basically the same gear, why in the ** should 2 races get ships that fire indefinately, while two races get gimped? An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Lord AtTiLAs Legion Du Lys GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.19 04:32:00 - [439] /Signed Can't go drastic and change everything on Amarr. Raise 10% Reduction Capacitor use (Level 5 --> 59% of original laser cap use) to 20% reduction capacitor use (Level 5 --> 32.7% of original laser cap use) on all ship that allready as that bonus. This will just give Amarr the chance to attack while being attacked. Also giving us a more effective bonus that do not just patch an handicap.
Azumel Trimark	Posted - 2007.11.19 04:43:00 - [440] REPORTING TO THE CONCENTRATION THREAD AS ORDERED BY THE SS OF EVE. (aka valorem or something. You know who I'm talking about) O well, not that anyone of the ISD or CCP will find out. This thread is just a dumphole for em anyway SO LETS TALK ABOUT SOMETHIGN n00 :D So i heard you liek mudkip?

Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.20 01:27:00 - [441] Originally by: Azumel Trimark So i heard you liek mudkip? Definately... Latest Video, Click Here!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.20 02:57:00 - [442] Originally by: Tarron Sarek Oh and btw: the cap usage bonus IS a meaningful bonus. Stop thinking so dmg centered. No its not. Its a fake bonus. Or how would you explain abaddon? It doesnt have it. Does it suck? No its one of our best ships. THE BONUS IS BULLZHIT.
Blinding Light	Posted - 2007.11.20 08:54:00 - [443] /signed amarr atm are 4tl :-(((
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:34:00 - [444] Whell - 15 pages, 450 posts and no Dev answer. Looks like they just dont whant to boost amarrs at all (maybe becouse it means that they agreed - they ignored problem for all this years). Then another solution - nefring all other races(armageddon is near) What needs nefr - your suggestions. Maybe in this direction topic will have some attention? 8)
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.20 11:04:00 - [445] Originally by: shinsushi Can someone please explain something to me? Ok, why do caldari/minmatar boats have anywhere near the amount of cap-recharge per second as gallente/amarr? Really... their weapons use absolutely no cap, so why should they have anywhere near the amount of cap-recharge per second? "Shield tanking" Is actually more cap efficient than armor tanking with just one amp. "MWDs" Everyone needs to use them, not just caldari/minmatar There is no reason why their cap-recharge rates should be anywhere near similar, none, nada, zilch. No more free ***** lunches man. LEt me put it another way, everyone has to tank, everyone needs to fit basically the same gear, why in the ** should 2 races get ships that fire indefinately, while two races get gimped? they are NOT simmilar. Compare typhoon against an Ammar BS for example. Also weapons ap usage is MINIMAl, most of cap is used by tanks. So the cap recharge advantage don need to be huge. My Ammar char with an Apoc can fire and repair for longer than this one with my typhoon (both without using Boost charges). If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.20 16:48:00 - [446] Originally by: PeacefullNub Whell - 15 pages, 450 posts and no Dev answer. Looks like they just dont whant to boost amarrs at all (maybe becouse it means that they agreed - they ignored problem for all this years). Then another solution - nefring all other races(armageddon is near) What needs nefr - your suggestions. Maybe in this direction topic will have some attention? 8) Devs have already confirmed a problem with amarr turret ships. Theyve also said that some sort of fix amarr meeting will take place. Question is WHEN???
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.11.20 17:37:00 - [447] Edited by: Inspiration on 20/11/2007 17:56:14 Edited by: Inspiration on 20/11/2007 17:54:37 So much anger, Palpatine would have been proud. The OP spews so many wrong and misleading data its just too annoying to read (A dominix using 6 neutrons, o yeah....try to fit 3 then come back to me). No wonder no Dev stepped in to do their say. Real setups have to deal with a balance of tank/gank/fitting/cap all at the same time and work in a strategy to that suits their strengths. Balancing has to be along the same lines, but what the OP and others are seeking is an easy to fit ship with no drawbacks that can be throw together with the easy of a raven, but is uber for PvP too. A well fitted geddon can jump into a group of ships and take them out one by one. You just have to think out of the box! Oh and ditch that crappy EFT program, a recent version I looked at could not even get right the amount of armor, and the tank and DPS numbers where totaly nuts too! To give something to think about: * Ships have more low slots then med slots (amarr are king in this respect). * A plate has pretty easy fittings for passive setups and gives 60% MORE effective HP then a shield extender. * EW in med can cripple a target ship, a shield tanker doesnt have the slots for it, so are more limited in PvP. * You do NOT need much firepower to take out a ship, its a common misconception. All you need is time and a way to destoy the target ships cap so its active tank fails. Hmm, amarr and cap, they got plenty of it! * Try autocannons for a change, works pretty well. LOL. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6021365693605761325
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:56:00 - [448] Interestingly, why people (not played for race) approve that amarrs have no problems, that amarr ships have enough cap for lasers and tank, that amarr players simply are not able to play well, etc. And after that they advise to fit autocanons and artis Try to fit lasers on your mega or tempese - forget about bonuses of the ships. Just try to play according your own advice. Maybe then youl understand (Though I doubt)...
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.11.21 13:45:00 - [449] First of all /signed Originally by: ArtemisEntreri The Typhoon: Resistances: 80.9/73.1/77.5/80.5 EM here is highest, but minmatar should get an advantage against amarr Why?? ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
BattleBrotherKid	Posted - 2007.11.21 16:59:00 - [450] over 9000% to laser damage. Problem solved. Now.. I wonder where this thread will go... more importantly, why the heck does everyone keep taking this thread seriously? 0.o NO U!



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