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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:18:00 -
[91]
Originally by: ZerKar ... B) Gallente are way too powerful, super tanks, super DPS, AND you did not even put their Drones into that mix and Ogre II's REALLY HURT. ...
His post is unclear - but he does state "Then the Dominix comes out top. Using 5 Ogre IIs and a rack of Neutrons, this thing spits out a hell of a lot of damage."
SKUNK
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Shevar
Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:19:00 -
[92]
Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 09/11/2007 07:16:25 Not signed. Amarr trade for superior tracking on long range weapons, no reloading time, extremely short ammo changing time, higher range on close range weapons (pulses) or higher dps on long range weapons (beams) for higher capacitor use and limited damage flexibility. It's a fair trade and it's balanced. Your setups are also intentionally rigged to justify your strained thesis.
Why don't you mention the 30% worse tracking of pulses compared to autocannons/blasters? What higher DPS on long range weapons (when taking into consideration DPS)? Why is it a fair trade off?
Originally by: Bellum Eternus OP: stop playing EFT and start playing Eve FFS.
How about you stop whining about the Eos being properly balanced DPS wise? Anyways show calculations, explain why the OP is wrong instead of baseless accusations.
Quote:
I'd like to view the source of this argument. Where are these figures located?
BTW: If you're really unhappy with the EW, I believe the Minmatar race would be more than happy to trade. Your tracking disruptors for our target painters. Deal? Twisted Evil
How about our cap warfar (neut/nos bonusses) for your web bonus? Atleast minmatar got 1 REALLY good ewar, amarr got 1 substandard and 1 totally ****e racial ewar. ---
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs |
Su'butai
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:21:00 -
[93]
After looking at your numbers using fittings that in the majority of cases will never be used by anyone with half a brain I'm totally convinced that Amarr have huge problems.
I am so impressed by DPS numbers that I'm going to ignore the whole range issue (Blasters) or how the majority of that DPS is neutered by fighting in falloff (autocannons).
Please put EFT down. :(
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Shevar
Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:22:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Su'butai After looking at your numbers using fittings that in the majority of cases will never be used by anyone with half a brain I'm totally convinced that Amarr have huge problems.
I am so impressed by DPS numbers that I'm going to ignore the whole range issue (Blasters) or how the majority of that DPS is neutered by fighting in falloff (autocannons).
Please put EFT down. :(
What about disproving what he said instead of just basicly claiming amarr is fine l2p? ---
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs |
Su'butai
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:28:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Su''butai on 09/11/2007 15:29:36
Originally by: Shevar
Originally by: Su'butai After looking at your numbers using fittings that in the majority of cases will never be used by anyone with half a brain I'm totally convinced that Amarr have huge problems.
I am so impressed by DPS numbers that I'm going to ignore the whole range issue (Blasters) or how the majority of that DPS is neutered by fighting in falloff (autocannons).
Please put EFT down. :(
What about disproving what he said instead of just basicly claiming amarr is fine l2p?
You can't just claim there's a problem based on DPS numbers alone. He's ignoring several factors such as the range advantage of pulse lasers over blasters or how the damage of autocannons is mitigated by having to fight in falloff, seriously you will never reach 1000dps on a Tempest unless you ram into your opponent at 1000m in which case you will get promptly annihilated because your tank sucks.
His numbers are completely divorced from reality and I'd be far more interested in numbers based on actual fittings rather than this 6xNeutrons that don't even fit on a Dominix without fitting mods crap that no-one is ever going to fly.
His tanking numbers are again asinine, wow shield tankers tank better than armor tankers when you use all your mids - it's hardly a revelation. Unfortunately most PvP fit shield tankers have to sacrifice mids for prop mods and tackling gear.
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Plutonian
Plutonian Shore
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:29:00 -
[96]
Before this degenerates into a flame-fest, which serves no purpose at all, how about a suggestion to really identify what (if anything) is wrong with Amarr?
You'll notice those arguing against are finding problems with the data laid out. There have been multiple accusations of skewing the results (either intentionally or unintentionally).
So how about we start a series of threads which, role by role, examines each race's ship types, and includes professional pilots from other races. No one could argue with that, right? In fact, it would probably greatly assist the devs in correctly balancing the Amarr race.
What do you say?
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Felysta Sandorn
Caldari System-Lords Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:34:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Plutonian I'd like to view the source of this argument. Where are these figures located?
A recent Dev Blog detailed the number of ships in use. Proportionally, Amarr had the least ships in use, whereas Caldari had the most ships in use. I believe it was also in an issue of E-ON that spoke of racial specialisations.
Also, none of these results are 'skewed' in any way. Each fitting is to the same standard as the next. Compare the results yourself if you disagree.
IRT ShardowRhino Despite not having a combat oriented tier 1 BS, the Scorpion is still a favourite in a lot of gangs. I know a lot of people who would prefer a jamming Scorpion to a Dominix for example.
Also, if you want to factor in critical hits, what about barely scratches and misses? Average DPS calculations generally take these in to account, though in all honesty missiles really shine through at close ranges compared with turret based weapons as they lose no damage due to tracking.
Again, talking of target painters, these are all optimal DPS calculations anyway. Imagine you're firing at a Titan if you want to look at it like that. If you don't, then just remember that without target painters, turret ships also have a hard time hitting anything with a smaller sig radius.
Comparing optimal values is the best way to get a fair comparison. From these optimal values, if you want to find a good medium, you should just average the two values, as that is the general result. Due to fitting requirements, you can't fit a full active tank alongside hugely high DPS. So why would comparing 'average' setups make any difference? There would be too much arguing on ship setups. The fact is, Amarr have poor damage potential, poor tanking potential, and nigh on none existant cap potential. Put these together and you have a below poor race. Caldari may have poor damage potential (although it's getting buffed soon), but great tanking potential and great cap potential (as missiles require no cap to fire), making them an above average race.
Let me put it another way for you, grading each race 1-5
Damage Potential: Caldari: 1 Amarr: 2 Minmatar: 4 Gallente: 5
Tanking Potential: Gallente: 2 Amarr: 2 Minmatar: 3 Caldari: 5
Cap Potential: Amarr: 1 Gallente: 3 Minmatar: 5 Caldari: 5
Total: Amarr: 5 Gallente: 10 Caldari: 11 Minmatar: 12
You could argue these sorts of figures all day long, but the proof is in the pudding (or first post, EFT, EVE, practice, paper etc etc)... Do the pros of lasers really outweigh the cons?
Amarr need a serious buff, and I believe that is apparent to most people reading this thread.
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Su'butai
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:35:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Su''butai on 09/11/2007 15:35:21
Quote: Right, now we've figured out Amarr suck for DPS, and they also suck for tanking... What's next? Oh, that's it... Amarr are the 'Cap Race'. According to everyone that I ever have this argument with, Amarr have infinate cap compared to other races and need nothing doing there... So let's analyse that, shall we?
It's a nice pithy sum-up unless you actually think it through.
He's proved Amarr are second only to blasters which have always reigned as the best close-range weapon, he's also proved that if you devote all your mids to shield-tanking you'll tank better than Amarr but since this never actually happens on account of all the important PvP stuff going in midslots it's a moot point, the only thing he has a reasonable argument for is the cap problems Amarr suffer from, it would be nice to see those addressed but everything else is complete crap.
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Moghydin
Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:36:00 -
[99]
For those who think Amarr are fine, give me an example of an Amarr ship that can be considered best in its class. Best ceptor, best HAC, best Recon, best Interdictor. Is any of those Amarr? I think not.
Press alt+F4 to reduce lag |
Drenan
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:39:00 -
[100]
Why, in the name of all that's holy...can CCP not just RESPOND officially to ONE of these threads?
All it would take is a simple, definitive, statement of intent ffs.
Oh and /signed btw.
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Felysta Sandorn
Caldari System-Lords Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:41:00 -
[101]
To those still talking about range, tracking, and falloff, I have already responded to this in the first main post (at the end), linking to a devblog on the subject.
On top of that, I'll say that range is rarely an issue anyway, as MWDs can get you within your optimal in a matter of seconds when you're using close range guns. If you are out of range of your guns, it's not hard to get in range. If you're too far outside your range to fire, then it's easy to get out of warp disrupt range and escape.
The only way lasers would benefit from the high range would be if they could hold their enemy at 20km indefinately, but the low range on webs and lack of cap on Amarr ships doesn't allow this.
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Khes
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:41:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Khes on 09/11/2007 15:43:46
OP: I don't know much about amarr but I belive your comparance is fail, because you only take in count what boosts your point. To make a comparence like this and then use it as some sort of "evidence" to prove your point without taking in account ALL factors just borderlines to missleading. Perhaps amarr has some problems in some apartments but to call what you wrote EVIDENCE is just WRONG. Rage torps will only deal the damage you stated on REALLY big targets like perhaps a POS without multiple target-painters something you just dismiss like it does not mean something. This is just one example. You can probably turn the statistics any way you want if you just select the factors to take in account.
If we would make all ships have precisely the same DPS on paper like your comparison and not taking in account all the other ships attributes and ablilities and fitting-capabilities and modules and other factors I belive it would be a disaster.
Im not saying Amarr does not have any problems, Im just saying your comparison is wrong.
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Ulstan
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:45:00 -
[103]
Reading this thread, the scorpion and raven sure look horrible for PvP. And of course, the amarr ships don't match up to their gallente counterparts.
But that's hardly a surprise. Still, it was a little depressing seeing the trend: Caldari ship at the bottom in DPS, gallente ship at the top in DPS.
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Tharrn
Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2007.11.09 15:55:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Moghydin For those who think Amarr are fine, give me an example of an Amarr ship that can be considered best in its class. Best ceptor, best HAC, best Recon, best Interdictor. Is any of those Amarr? I think not.
Titan :P
Now recruiting! |
Liam Liam
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Posted - 2007.11.09 16:02:00 -
[105]
While I don't think amarr is fine I don't think it's going to get buffed anytime soon either so if your really unhappy with it you might as well crosstrain into something else cos it aint going to improve or better yet don't train it if you haven't already.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.11.09 16:04:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 09/11/2007 16:04:17
Originally by: Tharrn
Originally by: Moghydin For those who think Amarr are fine, give me an example of an Amarr ship that can be considered best in its class. Best ceptor, best HAC, best Recon, best Interdictor. Is any of those Amarr? I think not.
Titan :P
Archon?
SKUNK
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gavhriel
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.11.09 16:14:00 -
[107]
nice read /signed
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Laboratory Rat
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Posted - 2007.11.09 16:44:00 -
[108]
excellent post. Signed.
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Felysta Sandorn
Caldari System-Lords Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.09 16:46:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Khes Edited by: Khes on 09/11/2007 15:58:28 OP: I don't know much about amarr but I belive your comparance is fail, because you only take in count what boosts your point. To make a comparence like this and then use it as some sort of "evidence" to prove your point without taking in account ALL factors just borderlines to missleading. Perhaps amarr has some problems in some apartments and no problems in other but to call what you wrote EVIDENCE is just WRONG. Rage torps will only deal the damage you stated on REALLY big targets like perhaps a POS without multiple target-painters something you just dismiss like it does not mean something. This is just one example. You can probably turn the statistics any way you want if you just select the factors to take in account.
If we would make all ships have precisely the same DPS on paper like your comparison and not taking in account all the other ships attributes and ablilities and fitting-capabilities and modules and other factors I belive it would be a disaster.
Im not saying Amarr has or does not have any problems, Im just saying your comparison is missleading.
This is the last time I'm going to repeat myself on this matter:
Torpedoes are getting a massive buff soon, and though they are at the bottom of the DPS comparison analysis, Ravens also make the best tanking BS. The pros also include the ability to change to any damage type, the lack of cap need for firing, the lack of tracking penalties, the inability to get jammed (tracking disruptors/FoFs), no damage reduction over distance.
The Scorpion, though is sucks for DPS, excels in it's EW capabilities. Something that if I did another comparison on, Amarr would come out last again (comparing sensor dampening, ECM, webbing, and tracking disruption). And if the Raven was as bad as so many people are claiming, then why is it the most widely used BS in the entire Universe of New Eden?
Also, please stop claiming my stats are falsified, as they are not. These are the actual calculated figures for the setups I've given. There has been no tampering to give Amarr a worse outcome. If you believe something else should be tested, please put it forward and I will write a response to that.
I know that Amarr specialised players are a minority, so all I should expect is a small amount of support and a tremendous amount of smack, but if you can't back up your claims to what I have written, please just don't post anything. I know that the Raven does less DPS than the Apoc, I wrote it! But try and take other elements in to account when smacking.
Cheers
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Darna Daytrader
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Posted - 2007.11.09 17:39:00 -
[110]
/signed
I'm flying only amarrian ships with my main, mostly the Zealot for lvl 3 missions. And its impossible to fit any other rig than ccc's to keep that lasers and tank running. So this is proof enough for me amarr ships have some very serious cap problems. Now take into consideration these cap probs get lowered a bit by a laser bonus per ship. What other bonus, if the ship has more than one, is left over?
Ok i cant say a thing about those shiny new Khanid MK II ships as i simply have no missile skills trained because they were'nt worth it for an amarr until now. And even now with some missileboats for the amarrs its still a question if it would be worth the time investement.
Maybe best guess is that i should crosstrain for a Raven for pve and learn some galentean skills in spaceship command and gunnery for pvp, heh ;-) not to mention the skils needed for shield tanking the above mentioned raven...
-- Amarr = screwed from the very beginning
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Shar'Tuk TheHated
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Posted - 2007.11.09 17:53:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Drenan
Why, in the name of all that's holy...can CCP not just RESPOND officially to ONE of these threads?
All it would take is a simple, definitive, statement of intent ffs.
Oh and /signed btw.
This ^^ and /Signed
DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale!
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES! |
Su'butai
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.09 18:00:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Felysta Sandorn
And if the Raven was as bad as so many people are claiming, then why is it the most widely used BS in the entire Universe of New Eden?
Also, please stop claiming my stats are falsified, as they are not. These are the actual calculated figures for the setups I've given. There has been no tampering to give Amarr a worse outcome. If you believe something else should be tested, please put it forward and I will write a response to that.
Because it's an excellent PvE battleship and the majority of EVE players actually reside in high-sec, not to mention it's the ship of choice for ISK farmers.
Also what it's going to take to convince you that your setups are completely inaccurate, divorced from reality, nobody is ever going to fit 4 x 800mm and 4 x Siege Launchers to a Typhoon, you can't even fit 6 x Neutrons to a Dominix without fitting, nobody uses all the mids on a Tempest to shield tank etc, etc...
If you could redo your numbers using actual setups that people use you'd probably be able to convince a lot more people, or maybe you wouldn't because then your numbers wouldn't look quite so slanted would they?
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mechtech
Silver Snake Enterprise
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Posted - 2007.11.09 18:02:00 -
[113]
Wrong forum, should be in ships and setups.
At least that's where all the other x problem/petition/dev response threads are.
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Felysta Sandorn
Caldari System-Lords Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.09 18:11:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Su'butai
Originally by: Felysta Sandorn
And if the Raven was as bad as so many people are claiming, then why is it the most widely used BS in the entire Universe of New Eden?
Also, please stop claiming my stats are falsified, as they are not. These are the actual calculated figures for the setups I've given. There has been no tampering to give Amarr a worse outcome. If you believe something else should be tested, please put it forward and I will write a response to that.
Because it's an excellent PvE battleship and the majority of EVE players actually reside in high-sec, not to mention it's the ship of choice for ISK farmers.
Also what it's going to take to convince you that your setups are completely inaccurate, divorced from reality, nobody is ever going to fit 4 x 800mm and 4 x Siege Launchers to a Typhoon, you can't even fit 6 x Neutrons to a Dominix without fitting, nobody uses all the mids on a Tempest to shield tank etc, etc...
If you could redo your numbers using actual setups that people use you'd probably be able to convince a lot more people, or maybe you wouldn't because then your numbers wouldn't look quite so slanted would they?
Actually, the gank Typhoon is a very effective ship with an omnitank. I've personally flown a Neutron Domi with a Shield tank a lot and to great effect. And the Shield Tanking Tempest is widely used by mission runners, with cap mods in the lows (although slightly adapted from my setup, by using specific hardeners). The fitting requirements on a Neutron Domi aren't that obscene in comparison to using Tachyons on ANY Amarr ship.
So how about you stop arguing about fittings and actual add something to the discussion on Amarr?
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Felysta Sandorn
Caldari System-Lords Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.09 18:12:00 -
[115]
Originally by: mechtech Wrong forum, should be in ships and setups.
At least that's where all the other x problem/petition/dev response threads are.
If it went there, it wouldn't get half the number of responses or recognition as it does here.
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Khes
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Posted - 2007.11.09 18:16:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Felysta Sandorn
This is the last time I'm going to repeat myself on this matter:
Torpedoes are getting a massive buff soon, and though they are at the bottom of the DPS comparison analysis, Ravens also make the best tanking BS. The pros also include the ability to change to any damage type, the lack of cap need for firing, the lack of tracking penalties, the inability to get jammed (tracking disruptors/FoFs), no damage reduction over distance.
The Scorpion, though is sucks for DPS, excels in it's EW capabilities. Something that if I did another comparison on, Amarr would come out last again (comparing sensor dampening, ECM, webbing, and tracking disruption). And if the Raven was as bad as so many people are claiming, then why is it the most widely used BS in the entire Universe of New Eden?
Also, please stop claiming my stats are falsified, as they are not. These are the actual calculated figures for the setups I've given. There has been no tampering to give Amarr a worse outcome. If you believe something else should be tested, please put it forward and I will write a response to that.
I know that Amarr specialised players are a minority, so all I should expect is a small amount of support and a tremendous amount of smack, but if you can't back up your claims to what I have written, please just don't post anything. I know that the Raven does less DPS than the Apoc, I wrote it! But try and take other elements in to account when smacking.
Cheers
Im not arguing your figures, Im arguing against that you base your case on figures that are VERY limited and ignore all the other factors, and you call it evidence when it is only a fraction of the whole truth. You'd make a very good politician.
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Felysta Sandorn
Caldari System-Lords Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.09 18:34:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Khes Im not arguing your figures, Im arguing against that you base your case on figures that are VERY limited and ignore all the other factors, and you call it evidence when it is only a fraction of the whole truth. You'd make a very good politician.
In the DPS calculation, I also ignore (to a point) the cap use of the guns. Amarr cannot fire indefinately unlike other races. It's also important to point out that in nearly every DPS case and omni-tank would be used (on top of the damage mods), which would further drastically decrease the DPS done by Amarr ships.
You still fail to back up your own claims with evidence, you just dispute mine. It's like disagreeing with the theory of relativity and saying 'you forgot x' but then not actually showing how this affects the result.
Sorry, I just defined smacktalk!
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.09 18:44:00 -
[118]
Just choose a different ship to fly. The DEVs will adjust when EVERYONE is flying one race.
This analysis has done it. I'm switching to Mimnitar.
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JamnOne
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.11.09 18:55:00 -
[119]
Ok - shame on me for not reading your post yet...
Just on the topic: What makes you so important that you can state "Dev input Required"?
Another item: You are Caldari why complain about Amarrian Ships. I like the old Earth items known as "Duct Tape and Bailing Wire". I am making a fortune off of it. One of the best investments I ever made. Nothing else New Eden can keep the Amarrian Ships together.
p.s. More comments/questions after I read the first 4 pages. ________________________
Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
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Nexnecis Umbra
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Posted - 2007.11.09 19:03:00 -
[120]
well hopefully the devs will read this one /signed
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