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JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:13:00 - [121] Ok, I read the OP - I am impressed. I still do not think even with the data you provided that id demands a Dev response. They have stated that the Amarr will get a boost some day. They are fully aware of the fact that the Amarr is lacking in some areas. I do believe that when Rev III comes out is when we will see the great boost to Amarr. They are being patient about it to make sure that when the Amarr gets their boost that not every one will start using Amarr ships for FOTM scenarios and then they have to swing the Almighty Nerf Bat at it. Until then I will continue to use my wonderful duct tape and bailing wire to hold my ship together. ________________________ Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:16:00 - [122] Don't worry, CCP wont buff Amarr a least bit, ever, live with it. But I'm horribly sad to realize that such whineage and out of context analysis will lead to further nerfs to the Gallente. And due to incoming boosts to PvP of Caldari, we will end with Minmatar being difficult to use but powerful, and Cladari easily superior to anyone else in PvE and PvP alike. Hopefully in the end Gallente will remain overall better than Amarr, but both races will be third tier compared to Caldari and Minmatar. At least the OP could have done a droneless analysis.
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:18:00 - [123] Originally by: Su'butai Edited by: Su''butai on 09/11/2007 15:35:21 Quote: Right, now we've figured out Amarr suck for DPS, and they also suck for tanking... What's next? Oh, that's it... Amarr are the 'Cap Race'. According to everyone that I ever have this argument with, Amarr have infinate cap compared to other races and need nothing doing there... So let's analyse that, shall we? It's a nice pithy sum-up unless you actually think it through. He's proved Amarr are second only to blasters which have always reigned as the best close-range weapon, he's also proved that if you devote all your mids to shield-tanking you'll tank better than Amarr but since this never actually happens on account of all the important PvP stuff going in midslots it's a moot point, the only thing he has a reasonable argument for is the cap problems Amarr suffer from, it would be nice to see those addressed but everything else is complete crap. ^^^ Quoted for truth. I offered a real unbiased comparison with hard data input from pilots of all races. You obviously chose to ignore that. So, strangely enough, the 'Boost-Amarr' supporter's evidence all points towards the fact that (surprise!) "Amarr needs a boost". And when your data is questioned, instead of allowing the numbers to talk, you accuse people of trolling. I ask for a source (which you state exists), and you reply with 'it's out there... dev mentioned it... perhaps in an Eon issue'. (Funny, was hoping for a link.) 'Ultimate' Amarr thread? Not even close. Worse than the others TBH... at least they offered fixes... not excuses. Not saying Amarr don't need some improvement. Hell, even the developers admit that. But Amarr ships are all hopelessly crippled? Please. Interesting fact: I've been killed 12 times in this game. Eight of those were Amarr ships. Looks like someone's flying them... and making them work damn well.
Sofring Eternus Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:34:00 - [124] I really dont get what it is people dont understand: In a completely optomised layout, the Amarr battleship will not out perform any other ship. Then when you try to make a balanced setup, it wont suddenly begin out performing them when using a balanced setup, because it already isnt outperforming any other ships when specialized. Energy weapons(lasers) are proven to be FAIL. They need a complete rethinking and redesign, from the ground up. Create a new balanced turret, call them Energy Weapons and replace the current modules completely. Powergrid intensive turrets sound good as a unique module, until you realise that everyone else gets CPU intensive turrets or launchers. And that Weapon Upgrades reduces CPU use by 25% meanwhile AWU only does 10% for Powergrid. --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:51:00 - [125] Originally by: Sofring Eternus Energy weapons(lasers) are proven to be FAIL. They need a complete rethinking and redesign, from the ground up. Create a new balanced turret, call them Energy Weapons and replace the current modules completely. Powergrid intensive turrets sound good as a unique module, until you realise that everyone else gets CPU intensive turrets or launchers. And that Weapon Upgrades reduces CPU use by 25% meanwhile AWU only does 10% for Powergrid. Agreed. And when you've got to power scramblers, webbers, a MWD, an active tank and high-cap use weapons, that's a bit of a challenge to overcome. Unless you go passive, damn near everything on the ship is hogging cap. (Waits for Gallente pilots to chime in and say "That's what we've been doing all along.") Question: Would a change in capacitor recharge rates solve the problem? Or would a change in capacitor reserve solve it better? Or... would dropping the cap requirements of beam weapons be the best solution? Bring the requirement closer (but still higher) than the Gallente?
Ikserak tai Caldari Ghengis Tia Corp	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:01:00 - [126] signed/my other character is Amarr. Thought Amarr might be a good race for burned out veterans to feel inferior in, I guess I was right. I'll still put up with the weaknesses, as I've got way too much invested in SP training. My hats off to an excellent comparison, geez, it must have taken a s-load of time. YOU'VE NEVER ROCKED 'TIL YOU'VE UNDOCKED.
Frothgar Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:02:00 - [127] Mebbe consider making the player choose what resists go into the Omni module like through software scripts? I wouldn't want people nerfing minnies by stacking everything in explosive but perhaps cut the base effectiveness of the EANM II down to 1/3 of what its at now, slightly lower the armor base EM resist, and allow them to be programmed (Permanently, or only in stations so no hot swapping) with scripts that allow them to be emphasized to say 3 resists at current levels instead of 4. This allows people to Omnitank with passive setups, but slightly cuts the effectiveness of the module so 3 actives is better if you can fit/run it. IMO the problem with the Omni tank is it gives you more resists than 3 actives. If you're actually spending cap for the resist I think actives should be better. You could even make each portion of the script is stacking penalized to further discourage people from going 4x explosive, 1x kinetic, 3x therm. <Dons flame-proof suit> <3
Darken Two Gallente Cruororis Consors Conlegium Ivy League	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:08:00 - [128] Amarr needs a boost. But this thread is not the way to get it. Unrealistic data and trying to lead the reader into a conclusion makes it fail. I think the OP should try again but this time make a more balanced thread. Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
Sofring Eternus Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:27:00 - [129] Honestly, if they want to take the lazy way out, they could just duplicate exactly the hybrid stats, then double the cap use and range of blasters, and double the cap use and double(tracking/rof etc) of rails. Thus Amarr arent fighting for the DPS spot of Gallente, the 50% cap use bonus is still good. And the guns are unique without having so many drawbacks. **Note: Would still need to adjust the CPU and PowerGrid usages such that the lasors use 35% more grid than their hybrid counterpart, and 15% less CPU. --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:53:00 - [130] Originally by: Frothgar Mebbe consider making the player choose what resists go into the Omni module like through software scripts? I wouldn't want people nerfing minnies by stacking everything in explosive but perhaps cut the base effectiveness of the EANM II down to 1/3 of what its at now, slightly lower the armor base EM resist, and allow them to be programmed (Permanently, or only in stations so no hot swapping) with scripts that allow them to be emphasized to say 3 resists at current levels instead of 4. This allows people to Omnitank with passive setups, but slightly cuts the effectiveness of the module so 3 actives is better if you can fit/run it. IMO the problem with the Omni tank is it gives you more resists than 3 actives. If you're actually spending cap for the resist I think actives should be better. You could even make each portion of the script is stacking penalized to further discourage people from going 4x explosive, 1x kinetic, 3x therm. <Dons flame-proof suit> <3 No no. You cannot lower the base resist of EM . That will just make Tri hardener a even worse option. The solution must make people use more tri hardeners than omni tanks. Boost hardeners or insert DUAl resist modules ( Em/thermal and Explosive/Kin) a litytle bit better than hardeners. So peopel will replace one of the EANM by the Explosive/Kin . If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

Frothgar Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:18:00 - [131] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Frothgar Mebbe consider making the player choose what resists go into the Omni module like through software scripts? I wouldn't want people nerfing minnies by stacking everything in explosive but perhaps cut the base effectiveness of the EANM II down to 1/3 of what its at now, slightly lower the armor base EM resist, and allow them to be programmed (Permanently, or only in stations so no hot swapping) with scripts that allow them to be emphasized to say 3 resists at current levels instead of 4. This allows people to Omnitank with passive setups, but slightly cuts the effectiveness of the module so 3 actives is better if you can fit/run it. IMO the problem with the Omni tank is it gives you more resists than 3 actives. If you're actually spending cap for the resist I think actives should be better. You could even make each portion of the script is stacking penalized to further discourage people from going 4x explosive, 1x kinetic, 3x therm. <Dons flame-proof suit> <3 No no. You cannot lower the base resist of EM . That will just make Tri hardener a even worse option. The solution must make people use more tri hardeners than omni tanks. Boost hardeners or insert DUAl resist modules ( Em/thermal and Explosive/Kin) a litytle bit better than hardeners. So peopel will replace one of the EANM by the Explosive/Kin . Small amount not enough to make OMNI more essential. The T2 minmatar EM armor resists are beyond ridiculous. We're all on the same page by believing that actives should be more attractive. Currently even if boosted some, passive EANM gives you higher overall resists. Logical step for me would be make people choose where the EANM resists are slanted to and overall nerf the modules for lower resist numbers overall. Currently the +EM boost from an EANM is completely unneeded, might as well make them have to choose like they're doing with the new scripted modules.
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:36:00 - [132] Originally by: Sofring Eternus Honestly, if they want to take the lazy way out, they could just duplicate exactly the hybrid stats, then double the cap use and range of blasters, and double the cap use and double(tracking/rof etc) of rails. Thus Amarr arent fighting for the DPS spot of Gallente, the 50% cap use bonus is still good. And the guns are unique without having so many drawbacks. **Note: Would still need to adjust the CPU and PowerGrid usages such that the lasors use 35% more grid than their hybrid counterpart, and 15% less CPU. Would this make the raw damage-dealing ships competitive? Would it also solve the cap problem with the Crusader and Malediction? And what of the Curse and Pilgrim? How would you fix those? I have little knowledge of them, as I was training for a Curse when the nerf hit, and was forced to abandon it. Is it still rather hopeless?
Baleur Miners In Barges Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:45:00 - [133] Originally by: Chase What a fantastic read, you obviously put a lot of work into this. Thank you for that. /signed /signed, amazing work with that thread. I cant believe you went to all that trouble lol. ------------------------- This post represents my entire alliance views and opinions. Not.. ;(
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:46:00 - [134] Originally by: Plutonian I ask for a source (which you state exists), and you reply with 'it's out there... dev mentioned it... perhaps in an Eon issue'. (Funny, was hoping for a link.) That was in response to Amarr being the least flown race in EVE. Here is your link to the Dev Blog that talks about it: http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=505
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:47:00 - [135] Still, not thread coming three years after the first on the subject can ever claim to be the ultimate. Especially if you know there's going tobe at least two hundred more. [center] Old blog
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:50:00 - [136] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Plutonian I ask for a source (which you state exists), and you reply with 'it's out there... dev mentioned it... perhaps in an Eon issue'. (Funny, was hoping for a link.) That was in response to Amarr being the least flown race in EVE. Here is your link to the Dev Blog that talks about it: http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=505 Thank you! That's what I was after. Looking at it now. Wow... Minmatar capital ships must suck.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:56:00 - [137] /Signed Even though i must raise the issue that amarr is not true suck, just average on all fronts while the other races have places where they shine. It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.09 22:29:00 - [138] Originally by: Frothgar Mebbe consider making the player choose what resists go into the Omni module like through software scripts? I wouldn't want people nerfing minnies by stacking everything in explosive but perhaps cut the base effectiveness of the EANM II down to 1/3 of what its at now, slightly lower the armor base EM resist, and allow them to be programmed (Permanently, or only in stations so no hot swapping) with scripts that allow them to be emphasized to say 3 resists at current levels instead of 4. This allows people to Omnitank with passive setups, but slightly cuts the effectiveness of the module so 3 actives is better if you can fit/run it. IMO the problem with the Omni tank is it gives you more resists than 3 actives. If you're actually spending cap for the resist I think actives should be better. You could even make each portion of the script is stacking penalized to further discourage people from going 4x explosive, 1x kinetic, 3x therm. <Dons flame-proof suit> <3 Dear God. You want to kill armor tanking why exactly? Meh, OK, but only id Invu Fields got the same treatment. Give Amarr ships role bonus, something like 50% less cap use on energy weapons (all the cap crap is there to prevent other races using them, right?), maybe even cut overall laser cap use by 5-10%, cut laser fitting requirements a bit, increase damage 5-10% and give ships normal bonuses. And change some lenses so that they do more thermal than EM. I think a 70% Thermal 30% EM lens would make Amarr sing in joy. Then wait and see how it turns out, leave tweaking slot numbers and ship grid and cpu for last resort.
sharkyballs Amarr Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.09 22:46:00 - [139] signed very well thought out points. why was it well thought out? people that post something along the lines of "looks good on paper.." or "you never see x ship with that setup" fail to realise the only way you can balance math is with math, not opinion. the op made that distiction by comparing fact, not how you choose to setup a ship givin the options. that being said, it's possible to setup an amarr ship perfectly if you know what you're fighting. but that's possible with any ship. but givin inherent traits, ammar don't shine anywhere givin base abilities. i like the scientific approch to reasoning compaired to "i don't fly my ship that way". guess what, i don't fly my amarr ships the way described either. the point being that if they're that bad to start with, after you fit them your not going to be much better and your enemies still have those base advantages over you that can put them where they need to be. the amarr just don't shine enough anywhere for the fittings to even help.
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.09 23:03:00 - [140] Dristra - I agree with your Sig, it is great being Amarr. Here, have a Pint. I also have some extra duct tape for your ship if you need it. ________________________ Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!

Sanzorz Amarr EVEfan.dk	Posted - 2007.11.09 23:17:00 - [141] Great thread. It's nice to see something with base numbers on it. As some say, then it's a bit off due to awkward setups, but I doubt it will make a change on Amarr ships even if fitted properly. I don't pvp myself, so I can't really argue about what is needed or not, but threads about Amarr tanking or ganking pop up all the time. All the other races don't seem to appear near as much. Also noted is that many Amarr ships tend to use projectile weaponry in movies aswell. This does tell a thing or two, as it's hard to use cap for both staying alive and then fight back. I pve in my time when playing EVE, and it ain't a huge problem being Amarr here. I started with an Abaddon and it's rather extreme to how many cap modules you gotta use. Ofcourse I could choose another ship with the laser cap bonusses, but again...why a damn bonus just to fire, when the other 3 races don't have them? Also, with some decent tanking equipment and cap modules, then it's hard for you to fit any heatsinks on an Abaddon. This can be partly fixed by using cap injectors, but I'm not fond of carrying those around in missions and have to rely on them. I switched to a Nightmare, but becoming a pure laser platform makes me go "meh" due to tracking distrupters in Sansha missions. Currently it's fine due to being able to use torps, painter and drones. ...I prolly end up having to use a Raven anyway ---
Dammar Amarr Ephorate	Posted - 2007.11.09 23:26:00 - [142] Originally by: Dzajic Don't worry, CCP wont buff Amarr a least bit, ever, live with it. But I'm horribly sad to realize that such whineage and out of context analysis will lead to further nerfs to the Gallente. And due to incoming boosts to PvP of Caldari, we will end with Minmatar being difficult to use but powerful, and Cladari easily superior to anyone else in PvE and PvP alike. Hopefully in the end Gallente will remain overall better than Amarr, but both races will be third tier compared to Caldari and Minmatar. At least the OP could have done a droneless analysis. LoL yeah..ccp nerfed gallente because all the amarr whines. Also...with no more than ONE ship, Caldari is about to OWN pvp too....rrright. Really getting tired of all these idiot bandwagoneers that think this is Gallente Online. You got nerfed because you needed it. Period.
General StarScream THE DECEPTIC0NS	Posted - 2007.11.09 23:35:00 - [143] You the op fail when you compare ships, with fittings, you dont add range into it, wich makes all the proof and what not fail big time. ofcurse a nut domi will out dps a ship, but with a ****ty range, while amarr will be at 4 times the range giving dam still. if you dont add all the info into it, your wellworked any dont make sense at all. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
Vulkas	Posted - 2007.11.09 23:36:00 - [144] How can you go about your calculation with what you think are setups, not to mention these dps/tank stats are for maxed out in the skills relating to that setup. So people are supposed to assume your setups are the (RIGHT ONES), and that so many people in the game are that highly speced, I know some are; is no way to calculate a theroy about how amarr suck worse then every other race. Like others have stop screwing around in eft/quickfit, and play real eve. In eve, there is always a counter to every other ship, no matter what ship. Amarr lose cap, they fit cap rigs You get damped, you fit a mwd You get jammed, < pretty much the only one your really ****** with It all has to do with tatical anaylisis, which is what eve is based on, deciding how to setup your ship to counter other ships. Finally it all comes down to your setups, you should post the setups you use to get those calculations and then people would see, hey thats not how i setup my ship.
Dammar Amarr Ephorate	Posted - 2007.11.09 23:37:00 - [145] Originally by: General StarScream You the op fail when you compare ships, with fittings, you dont add range into it, wich makes all the proof and what not fail big time. ofcurse a nut domi will out dps a ship, but with a ****ty range, while amarr will be at 4 times the range giving dam still. if you dont add all the info into it, your wellworked any dont make sense at all. It makes perfect sense. You're just too stupid to understand it. Don't worry, You're not alone in your ignorance.
DrWorm Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.10 00:14:00 - [146] To the OP, thanks for all the hard work. While I would agree with some of the posters here the comparison aren't perfect. But who cares you compared the ships with common goals, be it range or damage. As an Amarr pilot for years I think this thread has touched on the issues that this race has as a whole. Great work. I have been training Gallante but the Sac brought me back. /Signed
Alei Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.11.10 00:36:00 - [147] Edited by: Alei on 10/11/2007 00:35:40 truly epic /SIGNED
Xendie Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.10 00:46:00 - [148] Ruddy 'ell Fel, nice write up :)
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.10 01:03:00 - [149] Amarr also deserved THE Gankageddon nerf (the one with heatsinks without stacking penalty), look where it got you.
Jaabaa Prime Quam Singulari	Posted - 2007.11.10 01:10:00 - [150] Amarr use lasers. Ships are made of metal. Laser bounces off metal. Laser does less damage. Where is the problem with that ? At least Amarr ships tank armor damage like there is no tomorrow. An Minmatar get :+15m/s speed bonus .... : NO 10 second reload (insta crystal switch on range/dmg/type) : NO reload (unless you have to) : NO need to carry ammo Go fly a flimsy Minmatar ship, with mixed projectile/missile/speed bonuses, and then say that Amarr are nerfed. Its like saying Ravens are no use when you do Caldari missions. --



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