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Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:23:00 - [1] Right, there seem to be masses and masses of 'Amarr Suck' threads, but none with any real evidence to this, some people post in the second page a few figures, but nothing ever really gets looked at. So today, I bring to you the ultimate 'Amarr Whine' thread. First, I'm going to analyse the damage potential of every Battleship in the game, comparing each one to it's Amarr equivilent. For every single stat that I place here, I'm using all level 5 skills for everything, and optimising the stats on every ship any way I can. For damage comparisons, I'll be using three damage mods on each ship. For tanking ability I'll be using full tanks to analyse potential. Let's get started... Damage Analysis First off is a flat out DPS potential for each ship. Resistances are not taken in to account here, neither are fittings (unless it's impossible). Simply close range high damage weapons with three damage mods. Drones are also used. Tier 1 Battleships: The Scorpion: Fitting: 4x Siege, 3x BCS Ammo: Rage Torps Volley Damage: 3754 Damage Per Second: 564 The Typhoon: Fitting: 4x Siege, 4x 800mm AC, 2x BCS, 1x Gyro Ammo: Rage Torps, Hail Volley Damage: 1260 Damage Per Second: 1049 The Armageddon: Fitting: 7x Mega Pulse, 3x Heat Sink Ammo: Conflagration Volley Damage: 2820 Damage Per Second: 1184 The Dominix: Fitting: 6x Neutron, 3x Magstab Ammo: Void Volley Damage: 3525 Damage Per Second: 1266 The Analysis: The ships are shown in order of the DPS they do (increasing). Obviously the Scorp is the worst DPS ship of the bunch, but that's expected. The Phoon at just over 100 DPS less than the geddon is hard to fit due to the split damage bonuses, but still manages to hold it's own. It also has spare drone space for two spare Ogre IIs incase a couple die. The Geddon is next (with second best damage), but doesn't have any spare drone space compared to the Phoon. Then the Dominix comes out top. Using 5 Ogre IIs and a rack of Neutrons, this thing spits out a hell of a lot of damage. The Argument: Amarr are hailed as being the 'DPS Race' among other things, but obviously this isn't the case. The geddon lies in the middle of the other two damage ships, making it the 'Average DPS race' in this circumstance. Tier 2 Battleships: The Raven: Fitting: 6x Siege, 3x BCS Ammo: Rage Torps Volley Damage: 5630 Damage Per Second: 907 The Apocalypse: Fitting: 8x Mega Pulse, 3x Heat Sink Ammo: Conflagration Volley Damage: 3223 Damage Per Second: 953 The Tempest: Fitting: 6x 800mm AC, 3x Gyro Ammo: Hail Volley Damage: 2714 Damage Per Second: 1004 The Megathron: Fitting: 7x Neutron, 3x Magstab Ammo: Void Volley Damage: 4113 Damage Per Second: 1239 The Analysis: The ships are shown in order of the DPS they do (increasing). The Raven lags behind with the lowest DPS (but only by 46), then the Apoc, then Pest, and finally Megathron. It should however be noted that the Apoc is the only ship at this tier that is using all 8 slots. That 953 DPS cannot increase any more, however the Raven can field two more guns. Two neutrons here put the raven up to 1035 DPS, over 80 MORE than the Apoc. Similarly, the Pest can field two launchers (two siege launchers with rage up it to 1112 DPS), and the Mega can also put on an extra launcher if the pilot so desires. The Argument: Again, it seems that Amarr is severely lacking in DPS in this tier of ships. Looking at the analysis, the Apoc has the lowest potential DPS compared with other battleships, so it's definately not one of the Amarr 'DPS Ships'. Latest Video, Click Here!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:23:00 - [2] Tier 3 Battleships: The Rokh: Fitting: 8x Neutron, 3x Magstab Ammo: Void Volley Damage: 3760 Damage Per Second: 1001 The Maelstrom: Fitting: 8x 800mm AC, 3x Gyro Ammo: Hail Volley Damage: 2895 Damage Per Second: 1101 The Abaddon: Fitting: 8x Mega Pulse, 3x Heat Sink Ammo: Conflagration Volley Damage: 4029 Damage Per Second: 1139 The Hyperion: Fitting: 8x Neutron, 3x Magstab Ammo: Void Volley Damage: 4700 Damage Per Second: 1307 The Analysis: The ships are shown in order of the DPS they do (increasing). Again, the Gallente ship is way out in front of the rest, proving a number of things (see the argument). The Maelstrom and Abaddon are very close in terms of DPS. 38 damage a second is the natural shield recharge of a BS with good skills, and just over the DPS of a Hobgoblin II... These are pretty much a draw, however I will point out that the Maelstrom uses it's midslots to tank and the fitting shown uses such little CPU and PG compared to the Abaddon. The Abaddon has three slots left with which to tank, where the Mael has six slots. Personally, I'd say the Maelstrom wins that contest! Then the Rokh isn't too far behind these two. The Argument: I think this proves that Gallente are the 'DPS Race', and any claim otherwise can be proven false simply by linking this thread. All statements saying that Amarr are the damage dealing race are hearby defunct. The 'Proof or STFU': Okay, maybe this isn't proof enough for you. So I'm going to put the damage of all ships through a filter. That filter is 60/40/40/40. EM is known as the highest resistance by far, so this filter is only very VERY gentle in the EM favour. Most BS have a 60% or 70% EM resist, but maximum of 35% to the others. If you want proof, info the BS in game. Hyperion: 784.2 DPS Maelstrom: 660.6 DPS Rokh: 600.6 DPS Abaddon: 569.5 DPS Megathron: 743.4 DPS Tempest: 602.4 DPS Raven: 544.2 DPS Apocalypse: 476.5 DPS Dominix: 759.6 DPS Typhoon: 629.4 DPS Armageddon: 592 DPS Scorpion: 338.4 DPS ORLY?: Yes, really... With the exception of the Scorpion in the Tier 1 BS Standoff, Amarr BS have less DPS than any other race, using a very very mild EM filter. Not only this, but Amarr pilots are stuck with this damage type. All other races can switch out to a different damage type if they strike difficult times. This will be particularly noticeable to mission runners, to whom damage types are everything... It should also be noted at this point, that Minmatar (who come second in every tier of BS in terms of DPS) do not need any cap to fire their guns. Compare this to the Amarr, who on EVERY SINGLE ship stated above, will run out of cap after just a few minutes of firing. In fact, after running the numbers, the ships will run out of capacitor (just from firing guns) as follows: Apocalypse: 10m 57s Armageddon: 3m 55s Abaddon: 2m 25s But wait, that's not fair is it? Surely I should compare the figures for Gallente here, as they also use cap for their guns (bear in mind here that Caldari ships also require no cap, and as stated above, still beat the Amarr ships in tier 2-3 BS). You're right! I should compare those figures, so here they are: Dominix: 11m 30s Megathron: 9m 21s Hyperion: 8m 46s So despite the fact that Amarr are the capacitor race (we will come back to this point later) and the DPS race, they are out-damaged by the other races, two of the three other races need no cap for their weapons, and Amarr ships can't even sustain their own cap as well as the one other race that does use cap for weapons. In fact, the Apoc is the only ship that even comes close to this with two capacitor bonuses (one for guns, one for cap itself). Then the other ships last a third or even a quarter of that compared with the Gallente ships. We'll look at cap later, but for now, let's move on to something else. Latest Video, Click Here!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:24:00 - [3] Tank Analysis Well, maybe you're thinking 'Fair enough, Amarr suck at DPS, but hell! They can tank!' Let's test that theory, shall we? When judging a tank, I'm going to use all the slots available for that ship, in accordance with it's attributes and bonuses (for example I'm not going to armour tank a Scorp, shield tank a Geddon, or only use half slots on some ships). As before, all skills are at level 5 for this experiment. Resistances are shown as (EM/Exp/Kin/Therm). Also, only active tanks are going to be used. This is the best way to analyse the tanking ability, as comparing hitpoints is a little redundant (though I will put them their for your information anyway). Thanks to Gripen here for building EFT for me! Finally, we'll assume that everyone has infinate cap for this experiment, as we'll assume a mission-running setup with all non-tank slots taken up with cap mods and using cap rigs as well. Let's go, shall we? Tier 1 Battleships: The Dominix: Fitting: 2x LAR2, EANM2, 3x t2 Hardeners, DC2 Resistances: 74.5/73.1/80.5/80.5 Effective Hitpoints: 70,349 Maximum Defence Efficiency: 623 Cap Useage: 75.6 cap per second The Typhoon: Fitting: 2x LAR2, EANM2, 3x t2 Hardeners, DC2 Resistances: 80.9/73.1/77.5/80.5 Effective Hitpoints: 67,460 Maximum Defence Efficiency: 647 Cap Useage: 75.6 cap per second The Armageddon: Fitting: 2x LAR2, 2x EANM2, 3x t2 Hardeners, DC2 Resistances: 76.9/77.1/78.6/81.4 Effective Hitpoints: 74,076 Maximum Defence Efficiency: 744 Cap Useage: 75.6 cap per second The Scorpion: Fitting: X-L Shield Booster2, 3x Shield Boost Amp2, 2x Invul2, Photon2, Heat2, DC2 Resistances: 75.7/81.8/72.7/80.6 Effective Hitpoints: 71,643 Maximum Defence Efficiency: 1210 Cap Useage: 82.4 cap per second The Analysis: The ships are shown in order of the maximum defence efficiency (increasing). Personally, before I ran these figures, I thought the Scorp would use an obscene amount of cap compared to the other ships, but an extra 7 cap/s is nothing. Especially considering it gives nearly double the maximum defence efficiency of the armour tankers! The difference between the Geddon and Phoon (93) and the Phoon and Domi (24) is really not much at all in comparison to the Scorp... Especially considering that the Geddon is using an extra slot to tank! The stacking penalty pretty much makes that slot useless... So you would think... Dropping to a 7-slot tank (like the other two armour tankers use) drops the Geddon's defence efficiency to 623, the same as the Dominix! And here I thought Amarr had a better, more even resistance layout (and would therefore tank better using the same slots as other ships). The Argument: Before the Abaddon came out, the Geddon used it's extra lowslot to be king of tanking as a bait ship. I know, because I've used it that way dozens of times! It seems that the Geddon is outshone by the Scorpion here, and even the other two BS don't do a horrific job at tanking in comparison! Sure you could plate up the Geddon and it'll have more hitpoints, but you can shield extend the Scorp and have even more, plus a passive regeneration. Caldari win the tanking contest this round... Tier 2 Battleships: The Megathron: Fitting: 2x LAR2, EANM2, 3x t2 Hardeners, DC2 Resistances: 74.5/73.1/80.5/80.5 Effective Hitpoints: 77,279 Maximum Defence Efficiency: 623 Cap Useage: 75.6 cap per second The Apocalypse: Fitting: 2x LAR2, EANM2, 3x t2 Hardeners, DC2 Resistances: 74.5/76/77.5/80.5 Effective Hitpoints: 79,765 Maximum Defence Efficiency: 623 Cap Useage: 75.6 cap per second The Tempest: Fitting: X-L Shield Booster2, 3x Invul2, Shield Boost Amp2, DC2 Resistances: 62.3/84.9/77.4/69.8 Effective Hitpoints: 72,401 Maximum Defence Efficiency: 664 Cap Useage: 81.6 cap per second Latest Video, Click Here!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:25:00 - [4] The Raven: Fitting: X-L Shield Booster2, 3x Invul2, 2x Shield Boost Amp2, DC2 Resistances: 62.3/84.9/77.4/69.8 Effective Hitpoints: 76,313 Maximum Defence Efficiency: 861 Cap Useage: 81.6 cap per second The Analysis: The ships are shown in order of the maximum defence efficiency (increasing). The Apoc comes joint last with the Mega. The only reason I'm moving it to third is because of the cap bonuses it gets which help slightly when tanking (although an extra 6 cap/s doesn't go very far, even though it's the difference between a shield and armour tank). The two shield tankers have a great advantage here as well, as they have their lowslots free for whatever they may desire. If it's mission running, then everyone knows CPRs are more efficient than cap rechargers, though these do nerf the shield tank. Damage mods are an option though, but with armour tankers they are not an option. The Argument: Seems like Amarr are losing this analysis already... I guess you could argue that the cap bonuses help you tank longer with the Apoc, but all that extra cap only gives you an extra 50 seconds on top of the Megathron's tank. But maybe the tier 3 BS can redeem Amarr... After all, each tier 3 BS has a bonus to tanking... So let's check it out: Tier 3 Battleships: The Hyperion: Fitting: 2x LAR2, EANM2, 3x t2 Hardeners Resistances: 70/68.3/77.1/77.1 Effective Hitpoints: 66,291 Maximum Defence Efficiency: 728 Cap Useage: 75.6 cap per second The Abaddon: Fitting: 2x LAR2, EANM2, 3x t2 Hardeners, DC2 Resistances: 80.9/82/83.2/85.4 Effective Hitpoints: 108,849 Maximum Defence Efficiency: 830 Cap Useage: 75.6 cap per second The Rokh: Fitting: X-L Shield Booster2, 3x Invul2, 2x Shield Boost Amp2, DC2 Resistances: 71.7/88.7/83/77.4 Effective Hitpoints: 99,840 Maximum Defence Efficiency: 1157 Cap Useage: 81.6 cap per second The Maelstrom: Fitting: X-L Shield Booster2, 3x Invul2, 2x Shield Boost Amp2, DC2 Resistances: 62.3/84.9/77.4/69.8 Effective Hitpoints: 82,174 Maximum Defence Efficiency: 1168 Cap Useage: 81.6 cap per second The Analysis: The ships are shown in order of the maximum defence efficiency (increasing). Well once again the Amarr ship is near the bottom... The only thing that puts the Abaddon above the Hyperion for tanking is the extra lowslot. For mission running, I'd probably still prefer the Hyperion as you can tailor the resists and still make full use of the rep amount bonus. The Hyperion also has an extra mid spare for EW or cap mods. The Rokh and Maelstrom really outclass both other BS here. The Argument: Amarr are meant to have 'uber' tanking skills when they swap their damage mods for resistance mods, but I don't really see anything good about their tanks here. Nothing spectacular at least... And there is no way they can compete with shield tankers, as they have the option of damage mods as well, and therefore can tank AND gank. The 'Proof or STFU': Unfortunately there isn't really any other viable way to analyse a tank. Just for fun though, I'm going to analyse the omni-tank, just to see it's affect on Amarr guns. I'll put an omni-tank on each armour-tanking BS, then show the average resists: Armageddon: 80/60.1/62.6/67.6 Apocalypse: 80/60.1/62.6/67.6 Abaddon: 85/70.1/71.9/75.7 Dominix: 80/55.1/67.6/67.6 Megathron: 80/55.1/67.6/67.6 Hyperion: 80/55.1/67.6/67.6 Typhoon: 85/55.1/62.6/67.6 Average: 81.4/58.7/66.1/68.8 Effective Damage: 18.6/41.3/33.9/31.2 EM being the highest average resist, letting through well over a third less damage than other resists (Explosive damage will affect an omni-tank over 220% more than EM damage). It should also be noted that Thermal resistances are the second highest here. Latest Video, Click Here!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:25:00 - [5] ORLY?: Yes, really... Omni-Tanks are still used just as much as they were before the EANM nerf. Fact is that if you only have 3 slots for an armour tank, two EANMs and a Damage Control is a hell of a lot more effective than three active hardeners. It uses less cap, less CPU, and gives a higher average resistance (despite most of that being in EM). The figures above prove that Amarr can't compete with other races with active tanks, and in passive tanking (particularly omni-tanking) it just makes other Amarr characters have an even harder life! So not only do Amarr do the least DPS (as discussed previously), but as omni-tanks are still very prevailant in the PvP scene, Amarr suffer further in the field and on paper. Right, now we've figured out Amarr suck for DPS, and they also suck for tanking... What's next? Oh, that's it... Amarr are the 'Cap Race'. According to everyone that I ever have this argument with, Amarr have infinate cap compared to other races and need nothing doing there... So let's analyse that, shall we? Capacitor Analysis So Amarr are the 'Cap Race'... Okay, I believe you, but let me run the figures just to make sure! There are two types of ship and/or warfare where capacitor really comes in to play and becomes vital to your survivability and usefulness. These are Interceptors and Sniping BS. Interceptors: Right, so what do Interceptors need to do? That's right, they need to MWD, and they need to tackle. But they need to fire weapons as well, else what is the point in having hardpoints? For the purpose of this experiment, I'm just going to compare the more expensive of the two Ceptors for each race. This is a pretty short analysis... The Crusader: Fitting: t2 MWD, t2 Warp Disruptor, Missile Launchers Peak Recharge: 4 cap per second Cap Consumption (No Guns): 7.5 cap per second Cap Consumption (Only Guns): 2.5 cap per second Cap Consumption (Total): 10 cap per second Time to Cap-Out: 49 seconds The Taranis: Fitting: t2 MWD, t2 Warp Disruptor, 3x 125mm Railgun Peak Recharge: 4 cap per second Cap Consumption (No Guns): 7.5 cap per second Cap Consumption (Only Guns): 1.9 cap per second Cap Consumption (Total): 9.4 cap per second Time to Cap-Out: 50 seconds The Claw: Fitting: t2 MWD, t2 Warp Disruptor, 3x t2 250mm Artillery Peak Recharge: 4 cap per second Cap Consumption (No Guns): 7.5 cap per second Cap Consumption (Only Guns): 0 cap per second Cap Consumption (Total): 7.5 cap per second Time to Cap-Out: 58 seconds The Crow: Fitting: t2 MWD, t2 Warp Disruptor, 3x t2 Standard Missile Launchers Peak Recharge: 4 cap per second Cap Consumption (No Guns): 7.5 cap per second Cap Consumption (Only Guns): 0 cap per second Cap Consumption (Total): 7.5 cap per second Time to Cap-Out: 1 minute 5 seconds The Analysis: Interceptors that don't need cap to fire their guns are infinately better than their cap-using-counterparts. Granted, the Crusader does slightly more DPS than other interceptors, but when you can only fire for a minute, that hardley helps against anything larger than a rookie ship! The Argument: You could argue here that the point of an Interceptor is to tackle, and nothing more... Well why do they all have turret hardpoints then? And what would the point be in an Interceptor gang? Another point that should be raised is one I came across quite recently... If you're attacking a defenseless target in an interceptor, all you need to do it run a warp disruptor and fire your weapons. I was attacking a Bestower recently and kept running out of cap in my crusader because it lasts for less than two minutes with guns and a point. Had I been in a Crow or a Claw, that would not have been an issue. Even the Taranis lasts longer, cap wise. Latest Video, Click Here!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:26:00 - [6] The 'Proof or STFU': When you need to speed-tank to avoid getting killed in your interceptor, all you run is your point and your MWD until the help arrives. Granted this is getting a buff in Trinity with cap use for propulsion jamming devices getting a bonus, but when a Crow or a Claw tackles a hostile, it can shoot that hostile as well, and (in some cases) perhaps even cause enough damage to get on the killmail where they would otherwise be truncated! ORLY?: Yes, really... Even the Taranis can drop a couple of light drones on enemies, but the crusader is useless for any form of firepower. True that it's not the job of the Interceptor to provide the DPS, but it still BADLY needs looking at! Why don't I just use a Malediction? Well the Malediction is slower, and I have no missile skills for a start, but other than that... If the Malediction is so much better than the Crusader in this respect, doesn't that mean that the Crusader is underpowered? Especially considering the Crusader is meant to be the better of the two Amarr Interceptors? Snipers: Okay, so I've addressed the problem of cap in Amarr Interceptors... Now let's look at the real issue that a lot of Amarr threads concern, which is the issue of cap in sniping BS. In a standard sniping BS setup, you need some very vital fittings to compete with the t2 snipers of today. Those fittings are: 3x Damage Mods Tracking Enhancers and Tracking Computers (enough to reach 170km) MWD 2x Sensor Boosters Any less than this, and you'll get laughed at by all your friends. This is pretty much the bare minimum, which is why it makes some ships really favoured for the job, and other ships really shunned (compare the Megathron to the Raven for example). After those fittings, you have to have a full rack of the biggest long range gun you have, then make it fit, then make the cap sustainable. So let's take a look at some of the favourites, shall we? For Gallente pilots, the favourite sniper is the Megathron, despite having slightly less DPS than the Hyperion, the tracking bonus comes in VERY handy, and the slot layout is perfect for a sniping BS: The Megathron: Fitting: 7x t2 425mm Railgun, t2 MWD, 3x t2 Sensor Booster, 3x t2 Damage Mod, 3x t2 Tracking Enhancer, CPR2 Range: 183+30 DPS: 335 Sustainability: 5 minutes 10 seconds Infinate Firing: 4 guns For Minmatar pilots, the Maelstrom and Tempest give very similar results. The beauty of the Tempest however is the ability to add two more mods in your highslots, but at a 22 DPS drop from the Maelstrom. It's also a lot cheaper, but mainly both have infinate cap! The Maelstrom: Fitting: 8x t2 1400mm Howitzer, t2 MWD, 3x t2 Sensor Booster, 3x t2 Damage Mod, t2 Tracking Enhancer, 2x Tracking Computer, PDS2 Range: 152+44 DPS: 345 Sustainability: Indefinate The Tempest: Fitting: 6x t2 1400mm Howitzer, t2 MWD, 3x t2 Sensor Booster, 3x t2 Damage Mod, 2x t2 Tracking Enhancer, Tracking Computer, RCU2 Range: 152+44 DPS: 323 Sustainability: Indefinate For Caldari pilots, the only real option is the Rokh... Though it's bonuses to range give it a great advantage over other BS. The Rokh: Fitting: 8x t2 425mm Railgun, t2 MWD, 3x t2 Sensor Booster, 2x t2 Capcharger, 3x t2 Damage Mod, 2x PDS2 Range: 194+30 DPS: 306 Sustainability: 8 minutes 51 seconds Infinate Firing: 6 guns The Rokh giving very similar results to the Megathron, but without the need for tracking enchancers and computers, you can fill the slots with capacitor enhancing devices. Latest Video, Click Here!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:26:00 - [7] Now the Amarr are tricky as their pilots tend to use all three BS to snipe. Some say the Apoc is the most sustainable, others that the Abaddon does most DPS, and others go for the Geddon for a good mix of DPS and sustainability. What I've always found tricky are the fittings. Nigh on impossible without a lot of Reactor Control Units... The Armageddon: Fitting: 7x t2 Tachyons, t2 MWD, 2x t2 Sensor Booster, 3x t2 Tracking Enhancer, 2x t2 Damage Mod, 2x RCU2, PDS2 Range: 168+25 DPS: 417 Sustainability: 2 minutes 32 seconds Infinate Firing: 2 guns The Apocalypse: Fitting: 8x t2 Tachyons, t2 MWD, 3x t2 Sensor Booster, 3x t2 Tracking Enhancer, 2x t2 Damage Mod, 2x RCU2 Range: 168+25 DPS: 357 Sustainability: 4 minutes 27 seconds Infinate Firing: 3 guns The Abaddon: Fitting: 8x t2 Tachyons, t2 MWD, 2x t2 Sensor Booster, t2 Tracking Computer, 2x t2 Tracking Enhancer, 3x t2 Damage Mod, 2x RCU2 Range: 168+25 DPS: 501 Sustainability: 1 minutes 21 seconds Infinate Firing: 1 gun The Analysis: Sure, they do a lot more DPS than their counterparts, but when they can only sustain that DPS for a couple of minutes, is it really worth it? A Maelstrom can deal 345 DPS forever so long as it still has ammo (yes, I did take reloading times in to account with all ships, and yes, I did in the DPS analysis earlier too). The Apoc can do 357 DPS for nearly 5 minutes, then that's it. Game over! After these Amarr ships lose all their cap, they can from then on only fire a couple of guns on their opponents! Not only this, but fitting is so tight with Tachyons, that if you wanted to put in a cap booster as well, you would need another Reactor Control Unit on each ship. Sure, you could put some capacitor rigs on to help, but the difference that makes on the Abaddon is it allows you to indefinately run two guns instead of one (seriously, I just tried it)! The Argument: So Amarr are meant to be the 'Cap Race', and yet there are races out there (Minmatar in particular) who have absolutely no problems with capacitor! If Amarr really were the 'Cap Race', surely their ships would be able to sustain the amount of energy that their guns use to fire? I mean, who in the history of anything builds something that doesn't work? Or is there something I'm missing? This is comparable to a certain gun in the real world that would only fire for 2 minutes, then that's it. Or perhaps the monitor you're looking in to right now only works for 2 minutes, then for the rest of the time it's on, only 25% of it actually works (ie you can only see a quarter of your screen). Or maybe even your hifi works for the first two songs of a CD, but the rest is really quiet and tinny until you give it a 10-minute rest. There is a term for all of these things: BROKEN! The 'Proof or STFU': Okay, so what now? Amarr are crap at pretty much everything... What's left? EW? Well the NOS nerf made Amarr Recons completely crap, tracking disruptors only work on 60% of the populace, and even then they're not very effective AND getting nerfed in Trinity. The lack of midslots on all Amarr ships make EW pretty much impossible. Amarr ships are broken. Every single one of them! Lasers are broken too! Something needs changing drastically in order to bring Amarr specialised characters in-line with other races. ORLY?: Yes, really... It's a well known and published fact that there are fewer Amarr players than any other race in New Eden. This is because the Amarr race is broken! Fix the issues detailed here, and maybe you'll start to see some more Amarr specialised players. Latest Video, Click Here!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:27:00 - [8] Too Long; Didn't Read! Well if you're Amarr specialised, like me, just write 'signed' as a reply or something. If you want to dispute my facts, go ahead. If you believe Amarr have another strength I have overlooked, please feel free to post it below and I'll analyse it as I have analysed the 'strengths' above. All Amarr ships, bonuses and weapons need looking at in much greater detail. They are often neglected as such a minority of players use Amarr, in comparison to the number of players that pilot Caldari or Gallente. Discuss. Latest Video, Click Here!
Will Hunter GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:29:00 - [9] amazing analisis, i hope ccp considers some of the points youa are raising here
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:41:00 - [10] Err /signed? Anyoe putting that much into research must be right! :) Website design and hosting for Eve Corps and players

Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:42:00 - [11] since it hasn't been said yet... NERF AMARR! Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/11/2007 21:34:44 EDIT You know what, Tortun has this one under control...* *Basks in the chaos of this thread
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:43:00 - [12] Edited by: Astorothe on 09/11/2007 02:45:17 I was surprised to see the Raven rank so low on DPS - I always thought they were the King. Still, they are definately the master of level 4 missions but I guess thats because of the lack of range restrictions and uber-tanking ability mixed in. But your analysis doesnt prove that Amarr are the WORST race - more so it proves they are rather average - or did I read it wrong? Average is ok? Very nice work btw. Nice. edit: Typos Website design and hosting for Eve Corps and players
Chase	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:48:00 - [13] What a fantastic read, you obviously put a lot of work into this. Thank you for that. /signed
magnus amadeus Amarr Hammer Of Light	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:49:00 - [14] Edited by: magnus amadeus on 09/11/2007 02:52:32 I'll throw in my 2 cents. I fly only amarr, and I am reasonably satisfied with the performance of a few ships, namely the geddon, abaddon, Khanid Mk II, cap ships, and well.... Kinda the harbinger. One thing people will bring up is dominant range (short range weaponry). This is a valid point, and because gallente have bad range, use cap, locked dmg type, and have tough fitting requirements on their blasters I have no problem with blaster boats out-damaging laser boats. I do not think the same argument holds water with cap-less weapons that can choose damages though. Of course Projectiles also fight in fall-off, so that is something else to take into consideration. I would just like a fix to the apoc, prophecy, maller, omen, and the zealot. +1 mid -1 high on the retribution would be great too. Oh, did you use the new buffed torps in that or no? _________________________________________________ Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you down with experience.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:52:00 - [15] Originally by: Astorothe Edited by: Astorothe on 09/11/2007 02:45:17 I was surprised to see the Raven rank so low on DPS - I always thought they were the King. Still, they are definately the master of level 4 missions but I guess thats because of the lack of range restrictions and uber-tanking ability mixed in. In PvE travel time for missiles is less an issue. Add to that no range restrictions (work as well point blank as they do at 60km). Add to that damage is consistent (no loss to tracking/range issues). Add to that short of being jammed EW has no effect on missiles. Likewise with FoF even being jammed can be overcome. Add to that they can change damage types for best effect. So, while "low" DPS it is consistent and mostly unstoppable DPS. That counts for a LOT in PvE. In PvP less so but still improves their utility over what the raw numbers show.
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:53:00 - [16] Way to not take optimal, falloff, or tracking into account in your DPS analysis.
Acoco Osiris Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.11.09 02:59:00 - [17] Originally by: Tortun Nahme since it hasn't been said yet... NERF AMARR! /signed! They're too sexy, they need their actual utility nerfed even further! Back to reality, I don't know enough to comment seriously (though I can do so humerously), and I was not in the mood to cruise through your post. ------------------------------ One more soldier off to war... And one Velator in my hangars.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.09 03:04:00 - [18] Originally by: Vitrael Way to not take optimal, falloff, or tracking into account in your DPS analysis. First you'd have to write a book to account for every permutation. I think you need to assume optimal for each ship and that they track without melting your brain but if you want to show how it improves the outlook for Amarr go for it. Frankly I am willing to bet Amarr seriously fail if it was included. Lasers have miserable falloff compared to any other weapon. Beams have the best tracking of "long range" weapons but the worst range. Pulse have the worst tracking of "short range" weapons but longest range. However...at long range when is tracking an issue? Only screws you up if someone gets close. At short range tracking is a much bigger deal and Amarr are the worst at it.
Law Enforcer	Posted - 2007.11.09 03:13:00 - [19] /signed even though the devs are going to ignore this thread like every other amarr thread. we probably shouldn't even be drawing attention to our selves or zulu might see amarr fit for a nerf.
Phantom Slave Amarr Mozzaki United	Posted - 2007.11.09 03:20:00 - [20] Zulupark was asking in another Thread what ideas we had for Amarr to give them some 'Oomph', and I think this is a perfect example of why we need some. ____________________ Changes on Sisi are NOT the end of the world. Wait until Rev III/Trinity is released before drawing conclusions.

ElweSingollo Starlancers Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 03:32:00 - [21] got to say fel nice analysis as a fellow amarr specced player I have to admit that I would agree with what a lot of what you say of Amarr ships can be awesome but it tends to be very situational where that awesomeness shines out where as a lot of the time... something needs to be done me thinks but knowing the fairly large silence (khanid Mk 2 went where?) on this matter I rather doubt it will. CCP and Eve Online... It's not a bug, it's a feature *In Before I Get M* Again*
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.11.09 03:37:00 - [22] just please change the name from amarr whine to something slightly more appealing so devs might read it the main problem with your argument is it isn't tied together, aka doesnt take a gank/tank blend, speed, e-war potential, or engagement ranges.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.09 04:12:00 - [23] Well supposedly crap or not I'm definitely getting an Apoc when trinity is released have you seen the high res version? possibly one of the best looking ships in the game. Originally by: MOTOK0 A bit like the second coming of jesus only with screaming and tears and whine threads.
Uchuu Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2007.11.09 04:19:00 - [24] There has already been an ultimate amarr whine thread, plus countless others, and others started in unrelated topics, for more than 2 years. The ultimate amarr whine thread got a response from a dev who I don't even think is on the EVE team anymore. NEXT
The ArchWarder Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.09 04:40:00 - [25] Significant points raised Interesting Approach Great read Not really all the long Energy weapon ships definatly need SOMETHING Dont think CCP can ignore this one
Chockcat Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.11.09 04:44:00 - [26] Originally by: The ArchWarder Significant points raised Interesting Approach Great read Not really all the long Energy weapon ships definatly need SOMETHING Dont think CCP can ignore this one If Chockcat can ignore it, CCP can do the same. When are you all going to realize that your suggestions are not going to be taken seriously. Once, you understand this, your blood pressure will most likely drop. Here, have a can of tuna. It's on me.
Lord XSiV Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol	Posted - 2007.11.09 04:46:00 - [27] Wow, really good job on the analysis. Should be quite simple for the devs to look at and realize something is majorly broken. Other things you forgot, or just failed to consider: 1. Amarr are slow as snails. Only Caldari is slower. 2. Poor scan resolution. 3. Poor tracking. 4. Poor agility. 5. Pathetic drone capability. 6. Cargo bay size is small. 7. CPU sucks. 8. Fitting is generally a pain. :) Amarr = Eve on hard mode.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.11.09 04:54:00 - [28] I read through it all. You're doing it wrong. Stop playing Eve in EFT and start playing Eve on TQ. All of your theoretical maximums and paper analysis is completely useless and has no validity. You're forcing each ship to use theoretical setups in order to establish a 'baseline' that is fictional and unrealistic. Each ship will be fit/tuned to it's specific strengths and weaknesses. Again, your theories are invalid and without basis. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Ramius Cartwirght	Posted - 2007.11.09 05:07:00 - [29] Kudos on your research. This was a very well thought out and structured thread. I would recommend that you change the title so it might get more attention. As a True Amarr, this is definitely... SIGNED!
Nez Perces Amarr Metatron Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.09 05:40:00 - [30] Nice thread... detailed analysis.... I was hoping you might show that Amarr were good at something, just like one thing... but sadly its not the case. I feel ashamed of my blood line. How can we be the master race if we suck so hard. Signed... pls make us a proud race again instead of having to beg on the forums for some love.

Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.09 05:48:00 - [31] I'm very impressed. There are plenty of other little issues on individual ships (e.g. 5th turret for zealot, med slot for retribution, new role for apoc, omen & maller being garbage), but this is the core of the problem with Amarr. If Amarr got enough bonuses on their ships to have zero cap usage then all these numbers would be ok with me, but the fact that we have no better cap than other races & have the most cap using guns without being the top damage dealers or top tankers is very bothersome. Significant points raised Interesting Approach Great read Not really all the long Energy weapon ships definatly need SOMETHING Dont think CCP can ignore this one Don't Ban me for my Love of Amarr!
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.09 05:49:00 - [32] Originally by: Nez Perces Nice thread... detailed analysis.... I was hoping you might show that Amarr were good at something, just like one thing... but sadly its not the case. I feel ashamed of my blood line. How can we be the master race if we suck so hard. Signed... pls make us a proud race again instead of having to beg on the forums for some love. Nez agreeing with someone on the forums, holy crap. Don't Ban me for my Love of Amarr!
Nez Perces Amarr Metatron Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.09 05:55:00 - [33] Originally by: Cosmo Raata Nez agreeing with someone on the forums, holy crap. Well when somebody is right.... they are right.. nothing you can do about that CCP pls read this thread.. thx.
Dlardrageth Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.11.09 06:10:00 - [34] /signed On a side note... I think Amarr got a terrific mining frigate, though. Darn, I did it. Couldn't I keep my mouth shut? Now somewhere the red phone will start to ring and somone wil exclaim: "Buggers, the overpowered Amarr got a totally IMBA frigate. Nerf Amarr!"
Exuscon Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.09 06:36:00 - [35] Edited by: Exuscon on 09/11/2007 06:37:19 "The Argument: So Amarr are meant to be the 'Cap Race', and yet there are races out there (Minmatar in particular) who have absolutely no problems with capacitor! If Amarr really were the 'Cap Race', surely their ships would be able to sustain the amount of energy that their guns use to fire? I mean, who in the history of anything builds something that doesn't work? Or is there something I'm missing? " Alot of empires in History built stuff that did not work. Germany comes to mind in WWII.... The SturmTIGER used a keg round that killed more Germans almost than the Sherman did. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmtiger "Save the tree! Wipe your arse with an owl instead."
Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.09 06:58:00 - [36] I'll have to argue some of your fittings for BS, but truelly the point was made.. Amarr DPS= Urban Myth Amarr Tank= Urban Myth Amarr CAP= FACT! Amarr DO run out of CAP in a flash.. CCP Idea of Ballance= "Smokin' the Good Sh't" á ----------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
BlackHorizon Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.11.09 07:11:00 - [37] Edited by: BlackHorizon on 09/11/2007 07:15:09 Not signed. Amarr trade for superior tracking on long range weapons, no reloading time, extremely short ammo changing time, higher range on close range weapons (pulses) or higher dps on long range weapons (beams) for higher capacitor use and limited damage flexibility. It's a fair trade and it's balanced.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.11.09 07:21:00 - [38] OP: stop playing EFT and start playing Eve FFS. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Nez Perces Amarr Metatron Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.09 07:24:00 - [39] Originally by: BlackHorizon Not signed. Amarr trade for superior tracking, no reloading time, extremely short ammo changing time, higher range on close range weapons (pulses) or higher dps on long range weapons (beams) for higher capacitor use and limited damage flexibility. I encountered a fallacy in your argument.... Why would I want to change my frequency crystals, when I have no cap left? What actually happens is that you sit there twiddling your thumbs, waiting for cap to recharge hoping that you don't die, whilst everybody else is still having fun. Talk about lack of stamina....its embarassing. Bottom line is for the amount of damage lasers do, the cap consumption on them is astronomical.
Mr Bodacious mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.09 07:26:00 - [40] Originally by: Uchuu There has already been an ultimate amarr whine thread, plus countless others, and others started in unrelated topics, for more than 2 years. The ultimate amarr whine thread got a response from a dev who I don't even think is on the EVE team anymore. NEXT ever wonder why he isnt there anymore? he proposed they should fix amarr at the staff meeting. He was never heard from again.

Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.09 07:33:00 - [41] Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 09/11/2007 07:16:25 Not signed. Amarr trade for superior tracking on long range weapons, no reloading time, extremely short ammo changing time, higher range on close range weapons (pulses) or higher dps on long range weapons (beams) for higher capacitor use and limited damage flexibility. It's a fair trade and it's balanced. Your setups are also intentionally rigged to justify your strained thesis. extremely short ammo changing: T2 ammo is bugged, often ya have to reload again.. Not like T1 where ya can have +1 and always have 'em stacked.. higher range on close range weapons (pulses): When was the last time ya fought at 50 km?? higher dps on long range weapons (beams): Sure, for a minute or two.. It's a fair trade and it's balanced.: á ----------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
Dammar Amarr Ephorate	Posted - 2007.11.09 07:38:00 - [42] Originally by: Bellum Eternus OP: stop playing EFT and start playing Eve FFS. You are one sad, sad little forum *****. Then again, every time I see idiots like you whine about people using EFT, I lol.
Criza Amarr United Warriors Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 07:40:00 - [43] Signed... pls make us a proud race again instead of having to beg on the forums for some love. SIGNED I love flying amarr shipps but CCP should ******* start considering all these issues. Thank you for this abolutly briliant analysis.I hope someone that can do something about it will read this post.
Nez Perces Amarr Metatron Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.09 07:41:00 - [44] Edited by: Nez Perces on 09/11/2007 07:41:29 There is a simple way to find out the truth of the matter. Hypothetical question: If somebody offered you a choice of character, where that character was trained up to max BS/cruiser/BC level and max techII guns, but for a single race, which race would you chose? I dare anybody to answer Amarr, with all honesty. Why would you? for every single role, there is a better ship out there than an Amarr ship. End of. CCP fix this farce that is the Amarr race, already.
Beowulf Scheafer Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.09 07:41:00 - [45] Edited by: Beowulf Scheafer on 09/11/2007 07:44:16 awesome posting, i really support it, expect 1 point: amarr is considered the best armor tank race, NOT the best gankrace. thats gallente ever sinve i think, and i have no idea who tells others such crap. therefore its ok for the dominix to have a better theoretical dps on tier1 ( that is very theoretical, as you can't fit 6 neutrons into an empty domi without using reactor controls...). besides that, nice work
Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.09 07:59:00 - [46] Edited by: Scav Silver on 09/11/2007 07:58:59 Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 09/11/2007 07:41:29 There is a simple way to find out the truth of the matter. Hypothetical question: If somebody offered you a choice of character, where that character was trained up to max BS/cruiser/BC level and max techII guns, but for a single race, which race would you chose? I dare anybody to answer Amarr, with all honesty. Why would you? for every single role, there is a better ship out there than an Amarr ship. End of. CCP fix this farce that is the Amarr race, already. I'll still pick Amarr.. I love it when ppl die in total disbelieve.. Plus, the ships look awsome.. Atleast, we can look good when we die.. á ----------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2007.11.09 08:01:00 - [47] Firstly, I like your factual readouts and I appricaite you actually taking the time to set up some good solid examples. Secondly, I think this proves 2 secondary points A) Caldari reaaaaally blow, the Amarr and them fight for suckiest Ship and if you factor in Speed the Caldari are likely to wind up solidly at the bottom being unable to hold range to make their shots count for gun boats and we will forget Missiles exist (it is too painful otherwise). B) Gallente are way too powerful, super tanks, super DPS, AND you did not even put their Drones into that mix and Ogre II's REALLY HURT. If you add in the additional Drone DPS it would become sickeningly obvious that the Gallente with their "We do everything you do...but we do it BETTER!" ships are just plain over powered. They simply have No weakness, aside from a tiny bit of speed issues but those are laughable compared to the shield tanking Caldari. +++++++++++++++ I saw the Sign...! O.o
Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.09 08:10:00 - [48] Originally by: Bellum Eternus OP: stop playing EFT and start playing Eve FFS. Yeah, I would love that.. I praticly grew up on WC, WC2 and SC2, not to mention I owned a 150+ server for Freelancer.. The real trick is Lag.. The current internet can't support that for EvE.. á ----------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
Nez Perces Amarr Metatron Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.09 08:20:00 - [49] Originally by: Scav Silver I'll still pick Amarr.. I love it when ppl die in total disbelief.. Plus, the ships look awsome.. Atleast, we can look good when we die.. Heh...never said we didn't look good. Some of us even have to hide our faces cause we are so good looking... oh you mean the ships. Yeah Amarr ship aesthetics are nice.. thats the only reason why you wanna fly them though...
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.11.09 08:27:00 - [50] Finally, numbers that actually make sense. Now CCP, here's the proof that Amarr needs oomph, and bad, and now. Not next patch, not Soon(tm), now. - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online

Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E	Posted - 2007.11.09 08:39:00 - [51] what skill did you have testing.. ? ->My Vids<-
Corwain Gallente Down In Flames	Posted - 2007.11.09 08:40:00 - [52] I stopped after I saw you EFTing a Domi with Neutron blasters+3 magstabs, then using a 7 slot tank on a Domi for tanking comparisons. While I do agree Amarr needs something using skewed numbers and theoretical SISI fittings to prove your point is rubbish. --
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.09 09:09:00 - [53] Originally by: Corwain I stopped after I saw you EFTing a Domi with Neutron blasters+3 magstabs, then using a 7 slot tank on a Domi for tanking comparisons. While I do agree Amarr needs something using skewed numbers and theoretical SISI fittings to prove your point is rubbish. I think the OP put a lot of work into this (and kudos for that... beats the "Boost Amarr NOW!" threads). However, I have to agree the comparisons are flawed, and there seems to be a very clear attempt to lead the reader (instead of simply letting the chips fall where they may). I could be completely wrong here, but I can't shake the feeling that you made your decision, then went looking for data to reinforce it. Like Corwain, I feel the Amarr do need a boost. Even more, they seem to need a focus.
mama guru Gallente Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 11:32:00 - [54] Crusaders doesnt use missile launchers, just change that before some troll qoutes you on it and starts a flame war. Otherwise: Significant points raised Interesting Approach Great read Not really all the long Energy weapon ships definatly need SOMETHING Dont think CCP can ignore this one Also, Rember that all amarr ships looses a bonus to get their guns operational. NO OTHER RACE have this kind of penalty. Sure lasers doesnt use ammo, sure they got the fastest reloadingtime in the game and have great variation in range. But even if you replaced the 50% cap bonus and reduced laser cap usage overall it would still be pointless to use them on any other ship then the amarr ones because they all lack bonuses and EM/THERM is the easiest to omni tank via armor. (Its not exactly hard to get EM to 70+ and the others to similar levels using 3x resistance modules on caldari ships either so dont mention shieldtanking here.) *signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link) - Jacques([email protected]) EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
mama guru Gallente Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 11:34:00 - [55] Originally by: Bellum Eternus OP: stop playing EFT and start playing Eve FFS. Dont go there for crying out loud. Why should i get an abaddon/Apoc/Geddon when i got gallente BS V and T2 Hybrids aswell as T2 lasers of all sizes? *signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link) - Jacques([email protected]) EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Groes Thir Gallente Karjala Inc. Onnenpyora	Posted - 2007.11.09 11:47:00 - [56] Edited by: Groes Thir on 09/11/2007 11:47:51 Edited by: Groes Thir on 09/11/2007 11:47:10 "Sir Nerfbatter sir, our playerbase is demanding a boost for Amarr ships" "Sigh.. again? Okay, let's give 'em a nice little boost" Assistant and Sir Nerbat stare each other seriously Akward silence.... Both burst into laughter
CaldeteisX Caldari Helios Incorporated Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 11:56:00 - [57] Originally by: ZerKar B) Gallente are way too powerful, super tanks, super DPS, AND you did not even put their Drones into that mix and Ogre II's REALLY HURT. If you add in the additional Drone DPS it would become sickeningly obvious that the Gallente with I suggest you read this section again. Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Damage Analysis First off is a flat out DPS potential for each ship. Resistances are not taken in to account here, neither are fittings (unless it's impossible). Simply close range high damage weapons with three damage mods. Drones are also used. He did include drones, not as sickenly obvious as u thought.
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.11.09 11:57:00 - [58] More or less pure Amarr specc'd for the last 4 years here and I have to admit I enjoyed your post (although I disagree with your statement that our ship are 'broken'). As your analysis shows the problem isn't nearly as dramatic as your conclusion states, however your post does an excellent job of highlighting the core problem with our races ships and weapons: they aren't bad, they just aren't noticably better at what they should be doing over other races. Amarr ships are supposed to be tank and gank monsters that can either dish out alot of pain or suck it up for a respectable time. To balance that philosiphy our ships are generally slow, cumbersome and the most susceptible to EW in all its forms. Once again, good post.
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.11.09 12:18:00 - [59] Wait, Amarr got more 'oomph' a year ago - or so a Dev said :P /signed obviously, although I doubt it'll help more than that 100 page thread. Now recruiting!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 12:27:00 - [60] Responding to the comments (updated first page): Originally by: Felysta Sandorn EDIT: Responses... To those telling me to play EVE, not EFT, I do, and that is where I first saw these problems. The figures here are ones I got from EFT to back up my claims that Amarr lack any 'oomph' as it were. If I did not use these figures, this would just be another average whine thread with no real basis in factual evidence. I wanted to change that and give a detailed analysis of every race to prove that Amarr ships were the worst off in the categories I mentioned. To those arguing the credibility of the Dominix setup, I have a Gallente alt, and have flown that Dominix setup. It requires a lot of RCU to make it fit, but load it up with a shield tank, and it'll melt anyone it meets! A slightly more realistic setup is one with Ions, which still gives more DPS than the Armageddon with Mega Pulse lasers. To those arguing that I rigged all the fittings in favour to badmouth Amarr, check out the fittings for yourself. In the damage comparison, I went for the highest DPS possible for each ship, using three damage mods on each ship. For the armour tanking comparisons, I went for a full armour tank using every slot (yes, this changes the fittings on every ship I just tried the DPS for), but you can't have Amarr ships do both (gank and tank). Though you can both gank-fit and tank-fit shield tanking ships. Read the analysis about Minmatar ships. All skills were at level 5 for this comparison also, so there is no bias towards any race. Also, thanks everyone for agreeing me, and yes, I have changed the title now! And it took me a total of about 8 hours to put together this data. I'm unemployed and have an hour every day where I don't play EVE! Latest Video, Click Here!

The Shamen The Smog	Posted - 2007.11.09 12:38:00 - [61] Fely, you made a typo. You said you were unemployed, i think you meant unemployable.
sapanda1102222	Posted - 2007.11.09 12:38:00 - [62] Just reading all that was enjoyable. Amarr look cool.
Nabasuko Donosor	Posted - 2007.11.09 12:43:00 - [63] Signed by a 100% Amarr player here
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.11.09 12:45:00 - [64] /signed Thanks for all the work you've done with the figures. I won't go that deep as I don't have time to break down all data and options (and this work was done by the OP already), but from the "birds eye" point of view there are some obvious problems with Amarr: 1) Fixed damage type (EM damage type is the most tanked in Eve, seconded only by Thermal - how ironic). Greater base damage don't compensate for the disadvantage of having only 2 damage types, and the most tanked ones too. 2) Amarr don't have "The Ship" in any class. Ceptors - Crow, Taranis, Claw HACs - Cerberus, Vagabond, Ishtar Recons - Lachessis, Huginn, Rook Assault frigates - Ishkur, Harpy (sniper frig), Amarr assault frigs are pretty much useless for the lack of med slots Interdictors - Sabre, Flycatcher This is not the full list and the OP already did a great work with battleships, but you see the trend; there's not a single Amarr ship that could be best in its class. Recons were, but they got killed with the NOS nerf. Amarr still have problems with cap, problems with damage type and problems with EW and tackling for the lack of mid-slots (Retribution is an extreme example - give it another mid slot to fit at least a scrambler, take either 1 high or 1 low). After all there's only one reason to fly Amarr ships - they look cool and they use lasers (space, lasers - sounds good). Press alt+F4 to reduce lag
Kain De'Stroi Epic.	Posted - 2007.11.09 12:45:00 - [65] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn The Argument: Amarr are hailed as being the 'DPS Race' [ Wha?? -------- Boost Amarr and I will conquer the Universe - you been warned
speedek Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.09 13:05:00 - [66] They even gave us less frigs than all other races
thisiswrong	Posted - 2007.11.09 13:14:00 - [67] Originally by: Vitrael Way to not take optimal, falloff, or tracking into account in your DPS analysis. And resistance.
thisiswrong	Posted - 2007.11.09 13:19:00 - [68] Originally by: Scav Silver I'll have to argue some of your fittings for BS, but truelly the point was made.. Amarr DPS= Urban Myth Amarr Tank= Urban Myth Amarr CAP= FACT! Amarr DO run out of CAP in a flash.. CCP Idea of Ballance= "Smokin' the Good Sh't" People who started playing before the damage nerf knows this. People who started playing after the damage nerf have only read the backstory/ship description and are ignorant. Fact is, amarr only have ONE ship bonus. The cap use bonus was there when lasers was uber, now they suck and the cap use bonus is useless. Its been uhh well over a year since RMR launched, I wonder how long it will take CCP DEVS to either REALIZE the errors of their ways or to LISTEN to their amarr players.
Asestorian Domination.	Posted - 2007.11.09 13:38:00 - [69] It's interesting to see these numbers. I do agree that Amarr feel broken, and this analysis does show somewhat why this is. They are just average at everything. That said, data like this can't substitute for ingame reality. We do have plenty of ships that work quite well. The Abaddon plated up is actually a very good ship, especially in a gang. It can take a stupid amount of damage, and lay down the hurt quite well. This is a "proper" Amarr ship really. However, the fact is that in this situation you need something like two cap injectors just to keep your guns running is a bit of a problem. And as for active tanking.. lol. My main issue with Amarr ships though is in the cruiser area. We just don't have any ships there worth flying in my opinion. I'm gunnery specialised, and I find my options a little lacking. Omen? Dies if you look at it, and the range advantage is lost because it's too difficult to fit speed mods onto it alongside guns that deal any damage. Maller is a bait ship, and nothing more really. It's damage is actually better than the Omen if drones aren't factored in, but it suffers even more from being slow. With cruiser sized guns it's difficult to use the range advantage like you can with the battleships. Zealot? Meh. It's alright I suppose, but if I've got missile skills I'd take the Sacrilege. And I agree that tackling with the Crusader is a pain. I need to fill every one of my lowslots with cap relays in order to keep my MWD and scrambler running alongside my guns, and I have maxed out cap skills. This means I sacrifice a lot of potential extra speed or damage, and if I do manage to get hit I'm pretty screwed as I don't have space for any buffers. Crusader may be the fastest in theory, but it makes bugger all difference in practice when it comes to it's intended role. In my opinion overall as a race we are lacking somewhat, but with some good ships in there. The real issue is a lack of direction, especially with the Laser based ships. I'd also like to see the Apoc have a proper use. For some reason I really like that ship, but I'd be an idiot to use it outside of a fleet battle (and then I'd only use it because it's cap lasts the longest, is slightly easier to fit than a Geddon, and less expensive than an Abaddon). The Navy Issue could do with a look at too. Such a shiny ship, and so useless. --- MOZO
ShardowRhino Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.09 13:38:00 - [70] your shooting yourself in the head here with your argument. first you give the Raven additional DPS by fitting weapons its unlikely to fit and if they do fit will unlikely be able to use. Then you turn around and say that the raven doesn't require any cap to fire its weapons,yet those 2 guns you slap on to buff your argument require cap to fire. A raven is strained when it comes to grid/cpu and low slots when its trying to fit those 2 guns. If we go with t2 torps then theres no chance in hell of having 3 damage mods and the cpu/grid to fit 2 medium t1 hybrids + average tank. Your going to need perfect stats for something like you suggest could be common place for a raven. You also sweep the scorp under the rug and say its alright that it is by far the weakest BS who's bonus only applies if you forgo having a tank to defend yourself with. But that doesn't fit your argument so lets sweep it under the rug,right? why should the caldari pilots have a t1 bs that is a viable combat option when compared to its competition?! To me it sounds like your fluffing up the parts that help your argument as opposed to giving us the straight info. Doing such will likely not effect the crowd the way you want it to. Hell, i say give the scorp a combat bonus or give it additional midslots so it can actually use its bonus and have a chance of living through a few rounds.

Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.09 13:46:00 - [71] Just remember EFT != EVE. basically its not all about the dps (for example a neutron gank domi isnt the most fun thing to fit in the world, grid alone limits it.
Delene Amarr InNova Tech Inc Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.11.09 13:49:00 - [72] 100% Specialised Amarr char here. As said, the way to fix amarr ships is either to give them way more cap to play with or reducing the cap usage on lasers and give the ships real bonuses, not just 'can fit lasers' ones.. /signed
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:05:00 - [73] Originally by: ShardowRhino your shooting yourself in the head here with your argument. first you give the Raven additional DPS by fitting weapons its unlikely to fit and if they do fit will unlikely be able to use. Then you turn around and say that the raven doesn't require any cap to fire its weapons,yet those 2 guns you slap on to buff your argument require cap to fire. A raven is strained when it comes to grid/cpu and low slots when its trying to fit those 2 guns. If we go with t2 torps then theres no chance in hell of having 3 damage mods and the cpu/grid to fit 2 medium t1 hybrids + average tank. Your going to need perfect stats for something like you suggest could be common place for a raven. Adding two hybrid guns isn't really the same, cap wise, as running 8 Mega Pulse lasers. The fact of the matter is, running guns on the Apoc, despite it's massive bonuses to cap and laser cap useage, it still runs out of cap after a short while (as said in the analysis). The Raven, even if you add two hybrid guns, still will never run out of cap just from firing. This automatically makes the Raven infinately better than the Apoc. Originally by: ShardowRhino You also sweep the scorp under the rug and say its alright that it is by far the weakest BS who's bonus only applies if you forgo having a tank to defend yourself with. But that doesn't fit your argument so lets sweep it under the rug,right? why should the caldari pilots have a t1 bs that is a viable combat option when compared to its competition?! The Scorpion has bonuses that are nothing to do with combat, and therefore it is viable to ignore it. A similar comparison would be a Blackbird and a Caracal, where one is built to DPS and another is built to jam. The Scorpion fills a non-DPS combat role extremely well, where it uses Electronic Warfare to benefit the entire fleet in PvP. It was 'swept under the rug' as you say, as it is generally more useful than the other tier 1 BS due to it's EW capabilities. At the end of the day, if you put a Scorp in a ring with another ship, the Scorp will probably win due to it's EW potential. Sure, it would be a long slow fight, but the EW is the purpose of the Scorpion, not the DPS. Originally by: ShardowRhino To me it sounds like your fluffing up the parts that help your argument as opposed to giving us the straight info. Doing such will likely not effect the crowd the way you want it to. I've provided the facts with the same fittings on every BS in the game to provide evidence as to why Amarr ships are underpowered. If you don't believe these facts, do the maths for yourself and you'll find them to be true! Amarr are below average at every function, and completely bottom in terms of Capacitor useage, where all other races have certain strengths and weaknesses. If you cannot see this from the analysis I have provided, then you need to look harder. Originally by: ShardowRhino Hell, i say give the scorp a combat bonus or give it additional midslots so it can actually use its bonus and have a chance of living through a few rounds. Like I said, the Scorpion is not a combat ship, it's bonuses are more useful to PvP than any other BS in the game. Latest Video, Click Here!
Golan Trevize Amarr Faderhuset	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:12:00 - [74] Halleluljah.... Amarr specced for 4,5 years... The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
ShardowRhino Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:13:00 - [75] after reviewing the OPs info i noticed a few things 1. he mentions that all caldari BSes do not need cap to fire. Last i checked the Rokh only had 2 missle slots. wonder what the other weapons would be...wonder what they need to fire as well. 2. Caldari BSes are all the lowest damage dealers. Of course he fluffs up the raven's dps by adding weapons that won't be used or simply will not fit in a t2 enviroment,which lets face it, most people are going to use t2 asap. 3. poor little ammar ships end up being the moderate ships, they dont have the caldari curse of having the lowest dps. Yet at the same time they don't have the weakest defenses that gallantee apparently get to offset their dps uberness. From what I'm seeing is a complaint for having a solid line of ships,sprinkled with some spin on the truth. Being able to run your tank for a measly 50seconds more then the opponent is definitely something to scoff at. At least until your target pops and you live to collect the killmail. But that doesn't seem to fit the complaint so lets not pay any attention to that. So basically what his thread proves is that caldari are condemned to be on the defensive and cursed with the lowest dps. Not exactly fear inspiring Battleship designs. So how exactly is it bad to have solid,BALANCED battleships for all 3 tiers? What they should do is give each empire a BS that can sponge like crazy but has no offensive capability over that of a ****ed off kitten. Then give each empire a BS that is the damage dealer of the group but has the weakest defenses of the 3. Then give each empire a BS that is balanced offensively and defensively. That way caldari players can choose to have a ship that is on par with other the rest on the offense instead of being purely defensive as the OP shows us.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:13:00 - [76] To address the issues of tracking, optimal, and falloff, I have added another addendum to the first series of posts: Originally by: Felysta Sandorn EDIT 2: More Responses... To everyone that's talking about optimal range, tracking, and falloff... You may or may not remember this dev blog that addressed these issues, as Amarr tracking was really poor compared to other races. You can see from the graph that lasers still suffer greatly at short ranges compared with other turret based weapons. Amarr tracking (even after the buff) is still sub standard to other race's tracking, and although greater ranges are possible with pulse lasers in comparison with blasters or autocannons, the cons still outweigh the pros here, being worse capacitor use (as discussed), worse tracking (the start of the graph), worse falloff (notice how on the lasers the graph starts to drop rapidly every 2km), and the inability to change from EM damage (as discussed in the devblog). Latest Video, Click Here!
Kasak Black The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:13:00 - [77] OP 100% Signed.
Bob Veers Amarr Caelli-Merced INC.	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:14:00 - [78] /signed
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:29:00 - [79] Originally by: ShardowRhino after reviewing the OPs info i noticed a few things 1. he mentions that all caldari BSes do not need cap to fire. Last i checked the Rokh only had 2 missle slots. wonder what the other weapons would be...wonder what they need to fire as well. I addressed this issue a number of times throughout my analysis. Particularly in the sniping section towards the end, where the Rokh really shows it's colours! Like I said many times though, running 8 hybrid turrets is nothing in comparison to running 8 lasers. Especially on the Abaddon which doesn't have a bonus to laser cap useage. Originally by: ShardowRhino 2. Caldari BSes are all the lowest damage dealers. Of course he fluffs up the raven's dps by adding weapons that won't be used or simply will not fit in a t2 enviroment,which lets face it, most people are going to use t2 asap. Torpedoes are getting a massive buff soon, and all the fittings I've shown do fit on ships, even if they need a fitting mod or two. If you want to contest fitting though, please refer to the sniping section again where a minimum of two Reactor Control Units are required on each Amarr ship. This is of course assuming that every pilot flying these ships has level 5 in all skills... In reality a very small minority of people can actually use t2 RCUs, and you actually need 3-4 on every Amarr ship in order to compete. Even then, the cap use of Tachyons means you can only fire for a couple of minutes before just becoming a lump of golden metal in the sky. Originally by: ShardowRhino 3. poor little ammar ships end up being the moderate ships, they dont have the caldari curse of having the lowest dps. Yet at the same time they don't have the weakest defenses that gallantee apparently get to offset their dps uberness. From what I'm seeing is a complaint for having a solid line of ships,sprinkled with some spin on the truth. Being able to run your tank for a measly 50seconds more then the opponent is definitely something to scoff at. At least until your target pops and you live to collect the killmail. But that doesn't seem to fit the complaint so lets not pay any attention to that. The fact is that other ships have a lot of variety in comparison to Amarr ships. The Raven has the ability to deal any damage type on top of it's tremendous tank, and the Torp buff coming soon. Gallente ships can easily fit for tank or gank and still be better than their Amarr equivilent. Minmatar ships, as shown (particularly the Maelstrom and Tempest) can fit for both tank AND gank using a shield tank to free up lowslots for damage mods. Originally by: ShardowRhino So basically what his thread proves is that caldari are condemned to be on the defensive and cursed with the lowest dps. Not exactly fear inspiring Battleship designs. So how exactly is it bad to have solid,BALANCED battleships for all 3 tiers? The Raven has always been, and continues to be the best mission boat in game due to it's versatility and consistency. Amarr ships have neither of these attributes. The Scorpion is also easily the most useful BS in game with it's bonuses to jam, and the ability to take at least 4 hostile ships out on it's own. The Rokh can also easily out-range any other BS. Originally by: ShardowRhino What they should do is give each empire a BS that can sponge like crazy but has no offensive capability over that of a ****ed off kitten. Then give each empire a BS that is the damage dealer of the group but has the weakest defenses of the 3. Then give each empire a BS that is balanced offensively and defensively. That way caldari players can choose to have a ship that is on par with other the rest on the offense instead of being purely defensive as the OP shows us. The versatility of most ships in game allow this to happen in any hull, but Amarr ships provide a below average boat in all circumstances and excel at nothing, unlike all other races which generally will have strong points and weak points. Latest Video, Click Here!
Torco	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:38:00 - [80] excellent read! very good and hopefully the DEVS now see that Amarr ships don'T need just an oomph but an OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMPH

Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:39:00 - [81] Great thread, I hope CCP notices this thread sometime.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Arachidamia The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:47:00 - [82] Amarr are perfectly balanced really... until lasers enter the equation. Cap problems, damage type problems, fitting problems.... they all stem from lasers. Hopefully lasers get beefed up a bit... but I really can't see it happening
Hugh Ruka Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:49:00 - [83] I love the Raven damage setup. So you are using 3 damage mods and Rage torps, but forgot the 3 target painters needed to get maximum efficiency. Thats 6 slots total to get the damage you state. You can substitute them for faction torps, but then you need to count isk and you get less damage. rage torps cost around 400 isk a piece on average. faction torps are 2000+ isk a piece. care to update your tank setups with sustained damage efficiency numbers WITHOUT cap boosters counted in ? thanks Originally by: Aravel Thon Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox............... I am so so terribly sorry...
Alexace Gallente Bright New Dawn Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:54:00 - [84] Signed. Please CCP, fix Amarr. a %50-%60 reduction to laser cap use or as a role bonus, then give a real bonus like tracking, optimal range, or whatever. Anything is better than a bonus that has to be used to simply operate lasers. I just started training up Amarr BSes and they are simply unusable untill BS 4, otherwise you have to dedicate 3 or 4 modules to cap alone. I don't have any problem with amarr being inflexible, but they have to do something well. Thay don't tank well, they don't gank well. They have absolutely no EWAR. They suck. BOOST AMARR!!!!!!!!!!!
DarK STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:54:00 - [85] Lack of variety in weapons systems is the problem. Only so many flavours of tanking and lasers possible.
ShardowRhino Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:58:00 - [86] You suggest that the scorp should not be considered a combat ship, yet all other t1 BSes are combat orientated. Throwing out the idea that its the same difference as a blackbird and a caracal is wrong as every race has 1 ew based cruiser,1 miner and 2 combat orientated designs. Yet the caldari are the only ones that have tier 1 bs that cannot fight its way out of a paperbag. Either give it a combat bonu s instead or create a BS ew class and give us a combat orientated tier1 BS. Until such is done Caldari can argue that we in fact have the weakest BSes. Sure in a 1 on 1 fight where the scorp can actually apply its bonus, it might win in the long run. However when it comes to a fleet fight its going to lose. Either it goes with EW and gets called as primary which it will not survive or it can go with a tank but be completely useless offensively. Once the opposing fleet realizes that its a joke they will call out a new primary. So the caldari end up with a bs that is handicapped one way or another,meanwhile poor amar do not. As for the damage output of the ships,you ignore critical hits. While it may very well be completely random it must be factored in one way or another. To compare static offensive figures against those that can get a massive boost to damage leaves the argument lacking. While you may think your numbers look good on paper and therefore prove that the raven beats your tier2 bs, the reality of the matter is it proves nothing. You suggest that your numbers are solid but that would only be true if torps could get critical hits or if your guns did not. Also are you factoring in the damage that is lost due to the nature of the rage torps? I know I had to fit a painter on my raven in order to get full damage against another BS. When i shut the painter off I was doing less damage then t1 ammo. IF a raven is going to fit a target painter then its tank is going to be weakened,therefore you need to readjust its defensive value in turn. Of course if you try to argue purely the maximums for each ship in terms of offense and defense but ignore what they can truely fit at one time,the argument is pointless. If i cannot fit my maximum offensive value as well as my maximum defensive value then the idea that ammar lose all around is a weak argument. Without a complete ship to actually go over, your just coughing up numbers that may or may not mean anything in the end. If your only able to argue maximum value that are isolated and un*****ble, then your wasting time. The fact that there are going to be differences from 1 raven to the next means 1 may be stronger in one area then the other. It also ignores players' skills and rigs chosen or if one doesn't have any. So while not having the best offensive or best defensive values might seem bad to you, it might not mean a damn thing in the field. Just like most things that look good on paper, the reality of the matter is far different. In a game like eve with its vast amount of customization and time based skills in addition to its monetary system, trying to point at maximum values means little to nothing. The fact that your numbers show the ammar ships as balanced proves to me that they are likely to be the best bet in most situations. In all of the games that I have played,all the military history that I have read, one thing comes up consistently. Having a military,organization and down to individual units that is balanced tends to have the best chances at winning. It has no glaring weaknesses to exploit. Also if it does not have a massive advantage then no single aspect of it can lull its user into a false sense of security. A false sense of security due to a well known advantage can be turned into an exploitable weakness. Balance also gives the best spread of options while specialization limits such. is balance truely a weakness? To you perhaps. However I truely disagree and any fan of strategy will likely agree with me.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:04:00 - [87] Originally by: Vitrael Way to not take optimal, falloff, or tracking into account in your DPS analysis. All lasers typically have worse fall-off than their counterparts. Pulse lasers have the worst tracking of the short-range guns. Tracking is quite important at close range. The optimal range of beam lasers compares badly with other long-range guns, especially when you take into account their poor fall-off. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:07:00 - [88] Just read teh OP. CRAP CARAP CARAP. Totally unrealistic setups, Completely forgetiing that not all ships wil be able to fit all those damage mods. Typhoon for example you will almost NEVER see it with more than dual 425mm and siege and NO damage mod. Also 60/40/40/40 resists? LOL are you nuts? I would not even undock if at least ALL my resists are above 60% Second forget T2 close range ammo, reality is people use the Navy ammos because of no drawbacks. T If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:08:00 - [89] Projectile weapons work quite well in PvP when fitted on ships like the Apocalypse and the Maller. When was the last time anyone saw lasers being fitted on a non-Amarrian ship? Likewise, you see a lot of Arbitrator (and variant) pilots fitting sensor dampeners, despite that ship getting a tracking disruptor bonus. When was the last time you saw a Lachesis or Rook mainly fitting tracking disruptors? Sure, the dampeners are getting a nerf, but guess what - so are the disruptors! Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:09:00 - [90] Yeah... you're kinda losing me on the issue now. Which is pretty amazing since I was behind an Amarr boost (focus) before, but now I'm not. If you'd met the arguments put forward directly, without bias, I'd have no choice to see your point. But if you have to skew results, then things with Amarr aren't as bad as I thought. Give 'em a slight boost and call it a day. One quick question though: Originally by: Felysta Sandorn ORLY?: Yes, really... It's a well known and published fact that there are fewer Amarr players than any other race in New Eden. This is because the Amarr race is broken! Fix the issues detailed here, and maybe you'll start to see some more Amarr specialised players. I'd like to view the source of this argument. Where are these figures located? BTW: If you're really unhappy with the EW, I believe the Minmatar race would be more than happy to trade. Your tracking disruptors for our target painters. Deal?

Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:18:00 - [91] Originally by: ZerKar ... B) Gallente are way too powerful, super tanks, super DPS, AND you did not even put their Drones into that mix and Ogre II's REALLY HURT. ... His post is unclear - but he does state "Then the Dominix comes out top. Using 5 Ogre IIs and a rack of Neutrons, this thing spits out a hell of a lot of damage." SKUNK
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:19:00 - [92] Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 09/11/2007 07:16:25 Not signed. Amarr trade for superior tracking on long range weapons, no reloading time, extremely short ammo changing time, higher range on close range weapons (pulses) or higher dps on long range weapons (beams) for higher capacitor use and limited damage flexibility. It's a fair trade and it's balanced. Your setups are also intentionally rigged to justify your strained thesis. Why don't you mention the 30% worse tracking of pulses compared to autocannons/blasters? What higher DPS on long range weapons (when taking into consideration DPS)? Why is it a fair trade off? Originally by: Bellum Eternus OP: stop playing EFT and start playing Eve FFS. How about you stop whining about the Eos being properly balanced DPS wise? Anyways show calculations, explain why the OP is wrong instead of baseless accusations. Quote: I'd like to view the source of this argument. Where are these figures located? BTW: If you're really unhappy with the EW, I believe the Minmatar race would be more than happy to trade. Your tracking disruptors for our target painters. Deal? Twisted Evil How about our cap warfar (neut/nos bonusses) for your web bonus? Atleast minmatar got 1 REALLY good ewar, amarr got 1 substandard and 1 totally ****e racial ewar. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Su'butai Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:21:00 - [93] After looking at your numbers using fittings that in the majority of cases will never be used by anyone with half a brain I'm totally convinced that Amarr have huge problems. I am so impressed by DPS numbers that I'm going to ignore the whole range issue (Blasters) or how the majority of that DPS is neutered by fighting in falloff (autocannons). Please put EFT down. :(
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:22:00 - [94] Originally by: Su'butai After looking at your numbers using fittings that in the majority of cases will never be used by anyone with half a brain I'm totally convinced that Amarr have huge problems. I am so impressed by DPS numbers that I'm going to ignore the whole range issue (Blasters) or how the majority of that DPS is neutered by fighting in falloff (autocannons). Please put EFT down. :( What about disproving what he said instead of just basicly claiming amarr is fine l2p? --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Su'butai Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:28:00 - [95] Edited by: Su''butai on 09/11/2007 15:29:36 Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Su'butai After looking at your numbers using fittings that in the majority of cases will never be used by anyone with half a brain I'm totally convinced that Amarr have huge problems. I am so impressed by DPS numbers that I'm going to ignore the whole range issue (Blasters) or how the majority of that DPS is neutered by fighting in falloff (autocannons). Please put EFT down. :( What about disproving what he said instead of just basicly claiming amarr is fine l2p? You can't just claim there's a problem based on DPS numbers alone. He's ignoring several factors such as the range advantage of pulse lasers over blasters or how the damage of autocannons is mitigated by having to fight in falloff, seriously you will never reach 1000dps on a Tempest unless you ram into your opponent at 1000m in which case you will get promptly annihilated because your tank sucks. His numbers are completely divorced from reality and I'd be far more interested in numbers based on actual fittings rather than this 6xNeutrons that don't even fit on a Dominix without fitting mods crap that no-one is ever going to fly. His tanking numbers are again asinine, wow shield tankers tank better than armor tankers when you use all your mids - it's hardly a revelation. Unfortunately most PvP fit shield tankers have to sacrifice mids for prop mods and tackling gear.
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:29:00 - [96] Before this degenerates into a flame-fest, which serves no purpose at all, how about a suggestion to really identify what (if anything) is wrong with Amarr? You'll notice those arguing against are finding problems with the data laid out. There have been multiple accusations of skewing the results (either intentionally or unintentionally). So how about we start a series of threads which, role by role, examines each race's ship types, and includes professional pilots from other races. No one could argue with that, right? In fact, it would probably greatly assist the devs in correctly balancing the Amarr race. What do you say?
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:34:00 - [97] Originally by: Plutonian I'd like to view the source of this argument. Where are these figures located? A recent Dev Blog detailed the number of ships in use. Proportionally, Amarr had the least ships in use, whereas Caldari had the most ships in use. I believe it was also in an issue of E-ON that spoke of racial specialisations. Also, none of these results are 'skewed' in any way. Each fitting is to the same standard as the next. Compare the results yourself if you disagree. IRT ShardowRhino Despite not having a combat oriented tier 1 BS, the Scorpion is still a favourite in a lot of gangs. I know a lot of people who would prefer a jamming Scorpion to a Dominix for example. Also, if you want to factor in critical hits, what about barely scratches and misses? Average DPS calculations generally take these in to account, though in all honesty missiles really shine through at close ranges compared with turret based weapons as they lose no damage due to tracking. Again, talking of target painters, these are all optimal DPS calculations anyway. Imagine you're firing at a Titan if you want to look at it like that. If you don't, then just remember that without target painters, turret ships also have a hard time hitting anything with a smaller sig radius. Comparing optimal values is the best way to get a fair comparison. From these optimal values, if you want to find a good medium, you should just average the two values, as that is the general result. Due to fitting requirements, you can't fit a full active tank alongside hugely high DPS. So why would comparing 'average' setups make any difference? There would be too much arguing on ship setups. The fact is, Amarr have poor damage potential, poor tanking potential, and nigh on none existant cap potential. Put these together and you have a below poor race. Caldari may have poor damage potential (although it's getting buffed soon), but great tanking potential and great cap potential (as missiles require no cap to fire), making them an above average race. Let me put it another way for you, grading each race 1-5 Damage Potential: Caldari: 1 Amarr: 2 Minmatar: 4 Gallente: 5 Tanking Potential: Gallente: 2 Amarr: 2 Minmatar: 3 Caldari: 5 Cap Potential: Amarr: 1 Gallente: 3 Minmatar: 5 Caldari: 5 Total: Amarr: 5 Gallente: 10 Caldari: 11 Minmatar: 12 You could argue these sorts of figures all day long, but the proof is in the pudding (or first post, EFT, EVE, practice, paper etc etc)... Do the pros of lasers really outweigh the cons? Amarr need a serious buff, and I believe that is apparent to most people reading this thread. Latest Video, Click Here!
Su'butai Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:35:00 - [98] Edited by: Su''butai on 09/11/2007 15:35:21 Quote: Right, now we've figured out Amarr suck for DPS, and they also suck for tanking... What's next? Oh, that's it... Amarr are the 'Cap Race'. According to everyone that I ever have this argument with, Amarr have infinate cap compared to other races and need nothing doing there... So let's analyse that, shall we? It's a nice pithy sum-up unless you actually think it through. He's proved Amarr are second only to blasters which have always reigned as the best close-range weapon, he's also proved that if you devote all your mids to shield-tanking you'll tank better than Amarr but since this never actually happens on account of all the important PvP stuff going in midslots it's a moot point, the only thing he has a reasonable argument for is the cap problems Amarr suffer from, it would be nice to see those addressed but everything else is complete crap.
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:36:00 - [99] For those who think Amarr are fine, give me an example of an Amarr ship that can be considered best in its class. Best ceptor, best HAC, best Recon, best Interdictor. Is any of those Amarr? I think not. Press alt+F4 to reduce lag
Drenan State War Academy	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:39:00 - [100] Why, in the name of all that's holy...can CCP not just RESPOND officially to ONE of these threads? All it would take is a simple, definitive, statement of intent ffs. Oh and /signed btw.

Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:41:00 - [101] To those still talking about range, tracking, and falloff, I have already responded to this in the first main post (at the end), linking to a devblog on the subject. On top of that, I'll say that range is rarely an issue anyway, as MWDs can get you within your optimal in a matter of seconds when you're using close range guns. If you are out of range of your guns, it's not hard to get in range. If you're too far outside your range to fire, then it's easy to get out of warp disrupt range and escape. The only way lasers would benefit from the high range would be if they could hold their enemy at 20km indefinately, but the low range on webs and lack of cap on Amarr ships doesn't allow this. Latest Video, Click Here!
Khes	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:41:00 - [102] Edited by: Khes on 09/11/2007 15:43:46 OP: I don't know much about amarr but I belive your comparance is fail, because you only take in count what boosts your point. To make a comparence like this and then use it as some sort of "evidence" to prove your point without taking in account ALL factors just borderlines to missleading. Perhaps amarr has some problems in some apartments but to call what you wrote EVIDENCE is just WRONG. Rage torps will only deal the damage you stated on REALLY big targets like perhaps a POS without multiple target-painters something you just dismiss like it does not mean something. This is just one example. You can probably turn the statistics any way you want if you just select the factors to take in account. If we would make all ships have precisely the same DPS on paper like your comparison and not taking in account all the other ships attributes and ablilities and fitting-capabilities and modules and other factors I belive it would be a disaster. Im not saying Amarr does not have any problems, Im just saying your comparison is wrong.
Ulstan Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:45:00 - [103] Reading this thread, the scorpion and raven sure look horrible for PvP. And of course, the amarr ships don't match up to their gallente counterparts. But that's hardly a surprise. Still, it was a little depressing seeing the trend: Caldari ship at the bottom in DPS, gallente ship at the top in DPS.
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.11.09 15:55:00 - [104] Originally by: Moghydin For those who think Amarr are fine, give me an example of an Amarr ship that can be considered best in its class. Best ceptor, best HAC, best Recon, best Interdictor. Is any of those Amarr? I think not. Titan :P Now recruiting!
Liam Liam	Posted - 2007.11.09 16:02:00 - [105] While I don't think amarr is fine I don't think it's going to get buffed anytime soon either so if your really unhappy with it you might as well crosstrain into something else cos it aint going to improve or better yet don't train it if you haven't already.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.11.09 16:04:00 - [106] Edited by: Le Skunk on 09/11/2007 16:04:17 Originally by: Tharrn Originally by: Moghydin For those who think Amarr are fine, give me an example of an Amarr ship that can be considered best in its class. Best ceptor, best HAC, best Recon, best Interdictor. Is any of those Amarr? I think not. Titan :P Archon? SKUNK
gavhriel Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.11.09 16:14:00 - [107] nice read /signed
Laboratory Rat	Posted - 2007.11.09 16:44:00 - [108] excellent post. Signed.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 16:46:00 - [109] Originally by: Khes Edited by: Khes on 09/11/2007 15:58:28 OP: I don't know much about amarr but I belive your comparance is fail, because you only take in count what boosts your point. To make a comparence like this and then use it as some sort of "evidence" to prove your point without taking in account ALL factors just borderlines to missleading. Perhaps amarr has some problems in some apartments and no problems in other but to call what you wrote EVIDENCE is just WRONG. Rage torps will only deal the damage you stated on REALLY big targets like perhaps a POS without multiple target-painters something you just dismiss like it does not mean something. This is just one example. You can probably turn the statistics any way you want if you just select the factors to take in account. If we would make all ships have precisely the same DPS on paper like your comparison and not taking in account all the other ships attributes and ablilities and fitting-capabilities and modules and other factors I belive it would be a disaster. Im not saying Amarr has or does not have any problems, Im just saying your comparison is missleading. This is the last time I'm going to repeat myself on this matter: Torpedoes are getting a massive buff soon, and though they are at the bottom of the DPS comparison analysis, Ravens also make the best tanking BS. The pros also include the ability to change to any damage type, the lack of cap need for firing, the lack of tracking penalties, the inability to get jammed (tracking disruptors/FoFs), no damage reduction over distance. The Scorpion, though is sucks for DPS, excels in it's EW capabilities. Something that if I did another comparison on, Amarr would come out last again (comparing sensor dampening, ECM, webbing, and tracking disruption). And if the Raven was as bad as so many people are claiming, then why is it the most widely used BS in the entire Universe of New Eden? Also, please stop claiming my stats are falsified, as they are not. These are the actual calculated figures for the setups I've given. There has been no tampering to give Amarr a worse outcome. If you believe something else should be tested, please put it forward and I will write a response to that. I know that Amarr specialised players are a minority, so all I should expect is a small amount of support and a tremendous amount of smack, but if you can't back up your claims to what I have written, please just don't post anything. I know that the Raven does less DPS than the Apoc, I wrote it! But try and take other elements in to account when smacking. Cheers Latest Video, Click Here!
Darna Daytrader	Posted - 2007.11.09 17:39:00 - [110] /signed I'm flying only amarrian ships with my main, mostly the Zealot for lvl 3 missions. And its impossible to fit any other rig than ccc's to keep that lasers and tank running. So this is proof enough for me amarr ships have some very serious cap problems. Now take into consideration these cap probs get lowered a bit by a laser bonus per ship. What other bonus, if the ship has more than one, is left over? Ok i cant say a thing about those shiny new Khanid MK II ships as i simply have no missile skills trained because they were'nt worth it for an amarr until now. And even now with some missileboats for the amarrs its still a question if it would be worth the time investement. Maybe best guess is that i should crosstrain for a Raven for pve and learn some galentean skills in spaceship command and gunnery for pvp, heh ;-) not to mention the skils needed for shield tanking the above mentioned raven... -- Amarr = screwed from the very beginning

Shar'Tuk TheHated	Posted - 2007.11.09 17:53:00 - [111] Originally by: Drenan Why, in the name of all that's holy...can CCP not just RESPOND officially to ONE of these threads? All it would take is a simple, definitive, statement of intent ffs. Oh and /signed btw. This ^^ and /Signed DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale! THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!
Su'butai Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.09 18:00:00 - [112] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn And if the Raven was as bad as so many people are claiming, then why is it the most widely used BS in the entire Universe of New Eden? Also, please stop claiming my stats are falsified, as they are not. These are the actual calculated figures for the setups I've given. There has been no tampering to give Amarr a worse outcome. If you believe something else should be tested, please put it forward and I will write a response to that. Because it's an excellent PvE battleship and the majority of EVE players actually reside in high-sec, not to mention it's the ship of choice for ISK farmers. Also what it's going to take to convince you that your setups are completely inaccurate, divorced from reality, nobody is ever going to fit 4 x 800mm and 4 x Siege Launchers to a Typhoon, you can't even fit 6 x Neutrons to a Dominix without fitting, nobody uses all the mids on a Tempest to shield tank etc, etc... If you could redo your numbers using actual setups that people use you'd probably be able to convince a lot more people, or maybe you wouldn't because then your numbers wouldn't look quite so slanted would they?
mechtech Silver Snake Enterprise	Posted - 2007.11.09 18:02:00 - [113] Wrong forum, should be in ships and setups. At least that's where all the other x problem/petition/dev response threads are.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 18:11:00 - [114] Originally by: Su'butai Originally by: Felysta Sandorn And if the Raven was as bad as so many people are claiming, then why is it the most widely used BS in the entire Universe of New Eden? Also, please stop claiming my stats are falsified, as they are not. These are the actual calculated figures for the setups I've given. There has been no tampering to give Amarr a worse outcome. If you believe something else should be tested, please put it forward and I will write a response to that. Because it's an excellent PvE battleship and the majority of EVE players actually reside in high-sec, not to mention it's the ship of choice for ISK farmers. Also what it's going to take to convince you that your setups are completely inaccurate, divorced from reality, nobody is ever going to fit 4 x 800mm and 4 x Siege Launchers to a Typhoon, you can't even fit 6 x Neutrons to a Dominix without fitting, nobody uses all the mids on a Tempest to shield tank etc, etc... If you could redo your numbers using actual setups that people use you'd probably be able to convince a lot more people, or maybe you wouldn't because then your numbers wouldn't look quite so slanted would they? Actually, the gank Typhoon is a very effective ship with an omnitank. I've personally flown a Neutron Domi with a Shield tank a lot and to great effect. And the Shield Tanking Tempest is widely used by mission runners, with cap mods in the lows (although slightly adapted from my setup, by using specific hardeners). The fitting requirements on a Neutron Domi aren't that obscene in comparison to using Tachyons on ANY Amarr ship. So how about you stop arguing about fittings and actual add something to the discussion on Amarr? Latest Video, Click Here!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 18:12:00 - [115] Originally by: mechtech Wrong forum, should be in ships and setups. At least that's where all the other x problem/petition/dev response threads are. If it went there, it wouldn't get half the number of responses or recognition as it does here. Latest Video, Click Here!
Khes	Posted - 2007.11.09 18:16:00 - [116] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn This is the last time I'm going to repeat myself on this matter: Torpedoes are getting a massive buff soon, and though they are at the bottom of the DPS comparison analysis, Ravens also make the best tanking BS. The pros also include the ability to change to any damage type, the lack of cap need for firing, the lack of tracking penalties, the inability to get jammed (tracking disruptors/FoFs), no damage reduction over distance. The Scorpion, though is sucks for DPS, excels in it's EW capabilities. Something that if I did another comparison on, Amarr would come out last again (comparing sensor dampening, ECM, webbing, and tracking disruption). And if the Raven was as bad as so many people are claiming, then why is it the most widely used BS in the entire Universe of New Eden? Also, please stop claiming my stats are falsified, as they are not. These are the actual calculated figures for the setups I've given. There has been no tampering to give Amarr a worse outcome. If you believe something else should be tested, please put it forward and I will write a response to that. I know that Amarr specialised players are a minority, so all I should expect is a small amount of support and a tremendous amount of smack, but if you can't back up your claims to what I have written, please just don't post anything. I know that the Raven does less DPS than the Apoc, I wrote it! But try and take other elements in to account when smacking. Cheers Im not arguing your figures, Im arguing against that you base your case on figures that are VERY limited and ignore all the other factors, and you call it evidence when it is only a fraction of the whole truth. You'd make a very good politician.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.09 18:34:00 - [117] Originally by: Khes Im not arguing your figures, Im arguing against that you base your case on figures that are VERY limited and ignore all the other factors, and you call it evidence when it is only a fraction of the whole truth. You'd make a very good politician. In the DPS calculation, I also ignore (to a point) the cap use of the guns. Amarr cannot fire indefinately unlike other races. It's also important to point out that in nearly every DPS case and omni-tank would be used (on top of the damage mods), which would further drastically decrease the DPS done by Amarr ships. You still fail to back up your own claims with evidence, you just dispute mine. It's like disagreeing with the theory of relativity and saying 'you forgot x' but then not actually showing how this affects the result. Sorry, I just defined smacktalk! Latest Video, Click Here!
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.09 18:44:00 - [118] Just choose a different ship to fly. The DEVs will adjust when EVERYONE is flying one race. This analysis has done it. I'm switching to Mimnitar.
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.09 18:55:00 - [119] Ok - shame on me for not reading your post yet... Just on the topic: What makes you so important that you can state "Dev input Required"? Another item: You are Caldari why complain about Amarrian Ships. I like the old Earth items known as "Duct Tape and Bailing Wire". I am making a fortune off of it. One of the best investments I ever made. Nothing else New Eden can keep the Amarrian Ships together. p.s. More comments/questions after I read the first 4 pages. ________________________ Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
Nexnecis Umbra	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:03:00 - [120] well hopefully the devs will read this one /signed

JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:13:00 - [121] Ok, I read the OP - I am impressed. I still do not think even with the data you provided that id demands a Dev response. They have stated that the Amarr will get a boost some day. They are fully aware of the fact that the Amarr is lacking in some areas. I do believe that when Rev III comes out is when we will see the great boost to Amarr. They are being patient about it to make sure that when the Amarr gets their boost that not every one will start using Amarr ships for FOTM scenarios and then they have to swing the Almighty Nerf Bat at it. Until then I will continue to use my wonderful duct tape and bailing wire to hold my ship together. ________________________ Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:16:00 - [122] Don't worry, CCP wont buff Amarr a least bit, ever, live with it. But I'm horribly sad to realize that such whineage and out of context analysis will lead to further nerfs to the Gallente. And due to incoming boosts to PvP of Caldari, we will end with Minmatar being difficult to use but powerful, and Cladari easily superior to anyone else in PvE and PvP alike. Hopefully in the end Gallente will remain overall better than Amarr, but both races will be third tier compared to Caldari and Minmatar. At least the OP could have done a droneless analysis.
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:18:00 - [123] Originally by: Su'butai Edited by: Su''butai on 09/11/2007 15:35:21 Quote: Right, now we've figured out Amarr suck for DPS, and they also suck for tanking... What's next? Oh, that's it... Amarr are the 'Cap Race'. According to everyone that I ever have this argument with, Amarr have infinate cap compared to other races and need nothing doing there... So let's analyse that, shall we? It's a nice pithy sum-up unless you actually think it through. He's proved Amarr are second only to blasters which have always reigned as the best close-range weapon, he's also proved that if you devote all your mids to shield-tanking you'll tank better than Amarr but since this never actually happens on account of all the important PvP stuff going in midslots it's a moot point, the only thing he has a reasonable argument for is the cap problems Amarr suffer from, it would be nice to see those addressed but everything else is complete crap. ^^^ Quoted for truth. I offered a real unbiased comparison with hard data input from pilots of all races. You obviously chose to ignore that. So, strangely enough, the 'Boost-Amarr' supporter's evidence all points towards the fact that (surprise!) "Amarr needs a boost". And when your data is questioned, instead of allowing the numbers to talk, you accuse people of trolling. I ask for a source (which you state exists), and you reply with 'it's out there... dev mentioned it... perhaps in an Eon issue'. (Funny, was hoping for a link.) 'Ultimate' Amarr thread? Not even close. Worse than the others TBH... at least they offered fixes... not excuses. Not saying Amarr don't need some improvement. Hell, even the developers admit that. But Amarr ships are all hopelessly crippled? Please. Interesting fact: I've been killed 12 times in this game. Eight of those were Amarr ships. Looks like someone's flying them... and making them work damn well.
Sofring Eternus Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:34:00 - [124] I really dont get what it is people dont understand: In a completely optomised layout, the Amarr battleship will not out perform any other ship. Then when you try to make a balanced setup, it wont suddenly begin out performing them when using a balanced setup, because it already isnt outperforming any other ships when specialized. Energy weapons(lasers) are proven to be FAIL. They need a complete rethinking and redesign, from the ground up. Create a new balanced turret, call them Energy Weapons and replace the current modules completely. Powergrid intensive turrets sound good as a unique module, until you realise that everyone else gets CPU intensive turrets or launchers. And that Weapon Upgrades reduces CPU use by 25% meanwhile AWU only does 10% for Powergrid. --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.09 19:51:00 - [125] Originally by: Sofring Eternus Energy weapons(lasers) are proven to be FAIL. They need a complete rethinking and redesign, from the ground up. Create a new balanced turret, call them Energy Weapons and replace the current modules completely. Powergrid intensive turrets sound good as a unique module, until you realise that everyone else gets CPU intensive turrets or launchers. And that Weapon Upgrades reduces CPU use by 25% meanwhile AWU only does 10% for Powergrid. Agreed. And when you've got to power scramblers, webbers, a MWD, an active tank and high-cap use weapons, that's a bit of a challenge to overcome. Unless you go passive, damn near everything on the ship is hogging cap. (Waits for Gallente pilots to chime in and say "That's what we've been doing all along.") Question: Would a change in capacitor recharge rates solve the problem? Or would a change in capacitor reserve solve it better? Or... would dropping the cap requirements of beam weapons be the best solution? Bring the requirement closer (but still higher) than the Gallente?
Ikserak tai Caldari Ghengis Tia Corp	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:01:00 - [126] signed/my other character is Amarr. Thought Amarr might be a good race for burned out veterans to feel inferior in, I guess I was right. I'll still put up with the weaknesses, as I've got way too much invested in SP training. My hats off to an excellent comparison, geez, it must have taken a s-load of time. YOU'VE NEVER ROCKED 'TIL YOU'VE UNDOCKED.
Frothgar Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:02:00 - [127] Mebbe consider making the player choose what resists go into the Omni module like through software scripts? I wouldn't want people nerfing minnies by stacking everything in explosive but perhaps cut the base effectiveness of the EANM II down to 1/3 of what its at now, slightly lower the armor base EM resist, and allow them to be programmed (Permanently, or only in stations so no hot swapping) with scripts that allow them to be emphasized to say 3 resists at current levels instead of 4. This allows people to Omnitank with passive setups, but slightly cuts the effectiveness of the module so 3 actives is better if you can fit/run it. IMO the problem with the Omni tank is it gives you more resists than 3 actives. If you're actually spending cap for the resist I think actives should be better. You could even make each portion of the script is stacking penalized to further discourage people from going 4x explosive, 1x kinetic, 3x therm. <Dons flame-proof suit> <3
Darken Two Gallente Cruororis Consors Conlegium Ivy League	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:08:00 - [128] Amarr needs a boost. But this thread is not the way to get it. Unrealistic data and trying to lead the reader into a conclusion makes it fail. I think the OP should try again but this time make a more balanced thread. Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
Sofring Eternus Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:27:00 - [129] Honestly, if they want to take the lazy way out, they could just duplicate exactly the hybrid stats, then double the cap use and range of blasters, and double the cap use and double(tracking/rof etc) of rails. Thus Amarr arent fighting for the DPS spot of Gallente, the 50% cap use bonus is still good. And the guns are unique without having so many drawbacks. **Note: Would still need to adjust the CPU and PowerGrid usages such that the lasors use 35% more grid than their hybrid counterpart, and 15% less CPU. --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:53:00 - [130] Originally by: Frothgar Mebbe consider making the player choose what resists go into the Omni module like through software scripts? I wouldn't want people nerfing minnies by stacking everything in explosive but perhaps cut the base effectiveness of the EANM II down to 1/3 of what its at now, slightly lower the armor base EM resist, and allow them to be programmed (Permanently, or only in stations so no hot swapping) with scripts that allow them to be emphasized to say 3 resists at current levels instead of 4. This allows people to Omnitank with passive setups, but slightly cuts the effectiveness of the module so 3 actives is better if you can fit/run it. IMO the problem with the Omni tank is it gives you more resists than 3 actives. If you're actually spending cap for the resist I think actives should be better. You could even make each portion of the script is stacking penalized to further discourage people from going 4x explosive, 1x kinetic, 3x therm. <Dons flame-proof suit> <3 No no. You cannot lower the base resist of EM . That will just make Tri hardener a even worse option. The solution must make people use more tri hardeners than omni tanks. Boost hardeners or insert DUAl resist modules ( Em/thermal and Explosive/Kin) a litytle bit better than hardeners. So peopel will replace one of the EANM by the Explosive/Kin . If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

Frothgar Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:18:00 - [131] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Frothgar Mebbe consider making the player choose what resists go into the Omni module like through software scripts? I wouldn't want people nerfing minnies by stacking everything in explosive but perhaps cut the base effectiveness of the EANM II down to 1/3 of what its at now, slightly lower the armor base EM resist, and allow them to be programmed (Permanently, or only in stations so no hot swapping) with scripts that allow them to be emphasized to say 3 resists at current levels instead of 4. This allows people to Omnitank with passive setups, but slightly cuts the effectiveness of the module so 3 actives is better if you can fit/run it. IMO the problem with the Omni tank is it gives you more resists than 3 actives. If you're actually spending cap for the resist I think actives should be better. You could even make each portion of the script is stacking penalized to further discourage people from going 4x explosive, 1x kinetic, 3x therm. <Dons flame-proof suit> <3 No no. You cannot lower the base resist of EM . That will just make Tri hardener a even worse option. The solution must make people use more tri hardeners than omni tanks. Boost hardeners or insert DUAl resist modules ( Em/thermal and Explosive/Kin) a litytle bit better than hardeners. So peopel will replace one of the EANM by the Explosive/Kin . Small amount not enough to make OMNI more essential. The T2 minmatar EM armor resists are beyond ridiculous. We're all on the same page by believing that actives should be more attractive. Currently even if boosted some, passive EANM gives you higher overall resists. Logical step for me would be make people choose where the EANM resists are slanted to and overall nerf the modules for lower resist numbers overall. Currently the +EM boost from an EANM is completely unneeded, might as well make them have to choose like they're doing with the new scripted modules.
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:36:00 - [132] Originally by: Sofring Eternus Honestly, if they want to take the lazy way out, they could just duplicate exactly the hybrid stats, then double the cap use and range of blasters, and double the cap use and double(tracking/rof etc) of rails. Thus Amarr arent fighting for the DPS spot of Gallente, the 50% cap use bonus is still good. And the guns are unique without having so many drawbacks. **Note: Would still need to adjust the CPU and PowerGrid usages such that the lasors use 35% more grid than their hybrid counterpart, and 15% less CPU. Would this make the raw damage-dealing ships competitive? Would it also solve the cap problem with the Crusader and Malediction? And what of the Curse and Pilgrim? How would you fix those? I have little knowledge of them, as I was training for a Curse when the nerf hit, and was forced to abandon it. Is it still rather hopeless?
Baleur Miners In Barges Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:45:00 - [133] Originally by: Chase What a fantastic read, you obviously put a lot of work into this. Thank you for that. /signed /signed, amazing work with that thread. I cant believe you went to all that trouble lol. ------------------------- This post represents my entire alliance views and opinions. Not.. ;(
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:46:00 - [134] Originally by: Plutonian I ask for a source (which you state exists), and you reply with 'it's out there... dev mentioned it... perhaps in an Eon issue'. (Funny, was hoping for a link.) That was in response to Amarr being the least flown race in EVE. Here is your link to the Dev Blog that talks about it: http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=505
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:47:00 - [135] Still, not thread coming three years after the first on the subject can ever claim to be the ultimate. Especially if you know there's going tobe at least two hundred more. [center] Old blog
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:50:00 - [136] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Plutonian I ask for a source (which you state exists), and you reply with 'it's out there... dev mentioned it... perhaps in an Eon issue'. (Funny, was hoping for a link.) That was in response to Amarr being the least flown race in EVE. Here is your link to the Dev Blog that talks about it: http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=505 Thank you! That's what I was after. Looking at it now. Wow... Minmatar capital ships must suck.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:56:00 - [137] /Signed Even though i must raise the issue that amarr is not true suck, just average on all fronts while the other races have places where they shine. It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.09 22:29:00 - [138] Originally by: Frothgar Mebbe consider making the player choose what resists go into the Omni module like through software scripts? I wouldn't want people nerfing minnies by stacking everything in explosive but perhaps cut the base effectiveness of the EANM II down to 1/3 of what its at now, slightly lower the armor base EM resist, and allow them to be programmed (Permanently, or only in stations so no hot swapping) with scripts that allow them to be emphasized to say 3 resists at current levels instead of 4. This allows people to Omnitank with passive setups, but slightly cuts the effectiveness of the module so 3 actives is better if you can fit/run it. IMO the problem with the Omni tank is it gives you more resists than 3 actives. If you're actually spending cap for the resist I think actives should be better. You could even make each portion of the script is stacking penalized to further discourage people from going 4x explosive, 1x kinetic, 3x therm. <Dons flame-proof suit> <3 Dear God. You want to kill armor tanking why exactly? Meh, OK, but only id Invu Fields got the same treatment. Give Amarr ships role bonus, something like 50% less cap use on energy weapons (all the cap crap is there to prevent other races using them, right?), maybe even cut overall laser cap use by 5-10%, cut laser fitting requirements a bit, increase damage 5-10% and give ships normal bonuses. And change some lenses so that they do more thermal than EM. I think a 70% Thermal 30% EM lens would make Amarr sing in joy. Then wait and see how it turns out, leave tweaking slot numbers and ship grid and cpu for last resort.
sharkyballs Amarr Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.09 22:46:00 - [139] signed very well thought out points. why was it well thought out? people that post something along the lines of "looks good on paper.." or "you never see x ship with that setup" fail to realise the only way you can balance math is with math, not opinion. the op made that distiction by comparing fact, not how you choose to setup a ship givin the options. that being said, it's possible to setup an amarr ship perfectly if you know what you're fighting. but that's possible with any ship. but givin inherent traits, ammar don't shine anywhere givin base abilities. i like the scientific approch to reasoning compaired to "i don't fly my ship that way". guess what, i don't fly my amarr ships the way described either. the point being that if they're that bad to start with, after you fit them your not going to be much better and your enemies still have those base advantages over you that can put them where they need to be. the amarr just don't shine enough anywhere for the fittings to even help.
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.09 23:03:00 - [140] Dristra - I agree with your Sig, it is great being Amarr. Here, have a Pint. I also have some extra duct tape for your ship if you need it. ________________________ Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!

Sanzorz Amarr EVEfan.dk	Posted - 2007.11.09 23:17:00 - [141] Great thread. It's nice to see something with base numbers on it. As some say, then it's a bit off due to awkward setups, but I doubt it will make a change on Amarr ships even if fitted properly. I don't pvp myself, so I can't really argue about what is needed or not, but threads about Amarr tanking or ganking pop up all the time. All the other races don't seem to appear near as much. Also noted is that many Amarr ships tend to use projectile weaponry in movies aswell. This does tell a thing or two, as it's hard to use cap for both staying alive and then fight back. I pve in my time when playing EVE, and it ain't a huge problem being Amarr here. I started with an Abaddon and it's rather extreme to how many cap modules you gotta use. Ofcourse I could choose another ship with the laser cap bonusses, but again...why a damn bonus just to fire, when the other 3 races don't have them? Also, with some decent tanking equipment and cap modules, then it's hard for you to fit any heatsinks on an Abaddon. This can be partly fixed by using cap injectors, but I'm not fond of carrying those around in missions and have to rely on them. I switched to a Nightmare, but becoming a pure laser platform makes me go "meh" due to tracking distrupters in Sansha missions. Currently it's fine due to being able to use torps, painter and drones. ...I prolly end up having to use a Raven anyway ---
Dammar Amarr Ephorate	Posted - 2007.11.09 23:26:00 - [142] Originally by: Dzajic Don't worry, CCP wont buff Amarr a least bit, ever, live with it. But I'm horribly sad to realize that such whineage and out of context analysis will lead to further nerfs to the Gallente. And due to incoming boosts to PvP of Caldari, we will end with Minmatar being difficult to use but powerful, and Cladari easily superior to anyone else in PvE and PvP alike. Hopefully in the end Gallente will remain overall better than Amarr, but both races will be third tier compared to Caldari and Minmatar. At least the OP could have done a droneless analysis. LoL yeah..ccp nerfed gallente because all the amarr whines. Also...with no more than ONE ship, Caldari is about to OWN pvp too....rrright. Really getting tired of all these idiot bandwagoneers that think this is Gallente Online. You got nerfed because you needed it. Period.
General StarScream THE DECEPTIC0NS	Posted - 2007.11.09 23:35:00 - [143] You the op fail when you compare ships, with fittings, you dont add range into it, wich makes all the proof and what not fail big time. ofcurse a nut domi will out dps a ship, but with a ****ty range, while amarr will be at 4 times the range giving dam still. if you dont add all the info into it, your wellworked any dont make sense at all. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
Vulkas	Posted - 2007.11.09 23:36:00 - [144] How can you go about your calculation with what you think are setups, not to mention these dps/tank stats are for maxed out in the skills relating to that setup. So people are supposed to assume your setups are the (RIGHT ONES), and that so many people in the game are that highly speced, I know some are; is no way to calculate a theroy about how amarr suck worse then every other race. Like others have stop screwing around in eft/quickfit, and play real eve. In eve, there is always a counter to every other ship, no matter what ship. Amarr lose cap, they fit cap rigs You get damped, you fit a mwd You get jammed, < pretty much the only one your really ****** with It all has to do with tatical anaylisis, which is what eve is based on, deciding how to setup your ship to counter other ships. Finally it all comes down to your setups, you should post the setups you use to get those calculations and then people would see, hey thats not how i setup my ship.
Dammar Amarr Ephorate	Posted - 2007.11.09 23:37:00 - [145] Originally by: General StarScream You the op fail when you compare ships, with fittings, you dont add range into it, wich makes all the proof and what not fail big time. ofcurse a nut domi will out dps a ship, but with a ****ty range, while amarr will be at 4 times the range giving dam still. if you dont add all the info into it, your wellworked any dont make sense at all. It makes perfect sense. You're just too stupid to understand it. Don't worry, You're not alone in your ignorance.
DrWorm Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.10 00:14:00 - [146] To the OP, thanks for all the hard work. While I would agree with some of the posters here the comparison aren't perfect. But who cares you compared the ships with common goals, be it range or damage. As an Amarr pilot for years I think this thread has touched on the issues that this race has as a whole. Great work. I have been training Gallante but the Sac brought me back. /Signed
Alei Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.11.10 00:36:00 - [147] Edited by: Alei on 10/11/2007 00:35:40 truly epic /SIGNED
Xendie Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.10 00:46:00 - [148] Ruddy 'ell Fel, nice write up :)
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.10 01:03:00 - [149] Amarr also deserved THE Gankageddon nerf (the one with heatsinks without stacking penalty), look where it got you.
Jaabaa Prime Quam Singulari	Posted - 2007.11.10 01:10:00 - [150] Amarr use lasers. Ships are made of metal. Laser bounces off metal. Laser does less damage. Where is the problem with that ? At least Amarr ships tank armor damage like there is no tomorrow. An Minmatar get :+15m/s speed bonus .... : NO 10 second reload (insta crystal switch on range/dmg/type) : NO reload (unless you have to) : NO need to carry ammo Go fly a flimsy Minmatar ship, with mixed projectile/missile/speed bonuses, and then say that Amarr are nerfed. Its like saying Ravens are no use when you do Caldari missions. --

Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.10 02:23:00 - [151] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Amarr use lasers. Ships are made of metal. Laser bounces off metal. Laser does less damage. Where is the problem with that ? At least Amarr ships tank armor damage like there is no tomorrow. An Minmatar get :+15m/s speed bonus .... : NO 10 second reload (insta crystal switch on range/dmg/type) : NO reload (unless you have to) : NO need to carry ammo Go fly a flimsy Minmatar ship, with mixed projectile/missile/speed bonuses, and then say that Amarr are nerfed. Its like saying Ravens are no use when you do Caldari missions. FAIL MINUS!! á ----------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
Nessa Aldeen	Posted - 2007.11.10 02:39:00 - [152] I tell you why CCP ignore people who fly Amarr ships. 1. CCP live in Jovian space 2. Because of their Jove connections or them being Jove themselves, that incident where Amarr came and tried to pwn them Jovians really ticked them off. 3. Ergo no technology transfer from Joves to Amarr but everyone else gets em. 4. Instead they sabotage Amarr from the inside out..(nerf here and nerf there..generally ignoring any pleas or please) For further enquiries contact SOCT.. (run by a Jove) and oh.. /SIGNED p.s. please Jovies.it's not our fault you look like Jello.. we apologise for that little 'invasion' fix the Amarr ...
Dammar Amarr Ephorate	Posted - 2007.11.10 02:49:00 - [153] Edited by: Dammar on 10/11/2007 02:49:46 It's true. Here's Proof! (edit:that is on TQ..)
Nez Perces Amarr Metatron Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.10 02:51:00 - [154] Originally by: Nessa Aldeen I tell you why CCP ignore people who fly Amarr ships. 1. CCP live in Jovian space 2. Because of their Jove connections or them being Jove themselves, that incident where Amarr came and tried to pwn them Jovians really ticked them off. 3. Ergo no technology transfer from Joves to Amarr but everyone else gets em. 4. Instead they sabotage Amarr from the inside out..(nerf here and nerf there..generally ignoring any pleas or please) For further enquiries contact SOCT.. (run by a Jove) and oh.. /SIGNED p.s. please Jovies.it's not our fault you look like Jello.. we apologise for that little 'invasion' fix the Amarr ... You know what, I think you may have stumbled across something close to the truth. Only its a little more sinister. I'm willing to bet good money that most devs don't play amarr much. Tbh I can't even remember ever seeing a dev post with an amarr character. Like seriously is there one even? When they 'balance' things they probably do it with a non-amarr perspective, therefore. They balance out the other races and then amarr balancing is an afterthought. Tbh its the only explanation I can think of for amarr being forgotten for the last two and a half years or so. As it stands we are a dying race, which not even a dev would chose to play with.. why would they?.... If you could chose any race you wanted and you knew that amarr sucked, cause well, you helped design the game.. then obviously playing with an amarr character would be silly. And so the buck just gets passed around..... "yeah we know Amarr need some ooomph.... we are looking into it" i.e.... "none of us really play amarr so its not really a priority. Kthxbye." C/D? CCP
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.10 03:01:00 - [155] We can argue and snipe each other, and eventually less and less people will visit the thread. It will finally drop into obscurity along with the rest of Boost Amarr threads. All time served here will be wasted, and the developers (which have asked for feedback and suggestions multiple times) will ignore it and make their own decisions. But wouldn't it be nice if the players had some input into the process? And were able to suggest some changes which might actually resolve these issues? Change is going to occur one way or another... at least if some options are put forth some measure of control might be found. Very few pilots are suggesting changes which might fix the problem. Are you telling me most Amarr pilots don't know what it would take to fix their own ships? That the majority can't suggest what should be done to a.) make them competitive while b.) not causing them to become so uber they must be nerfed 3 months down the road? I find that hard to believe. You can tell me Amarr is broken... and that doesn't fix a damn thing. You can speculate on the causes. You can prove it with solid, legitimate, unbiased data... hell, we can argue over bits of data forever if needed... and still that does not fix the problem. Sofring Eternus seemed to have a great suggestion (Pg.5 of this thread, reply 129). It seems to solve the issues for all the Amarr T1 ships, and some of the T2 ships. I'm curious if it could have unforseen consequences, but can't seem to get a reply from the experts. (It doesn't fix the HAC's, but that's why I asked what Amarr pilots thought could be done with them. Didn't get a response to that either.) Perhaps my question should be: "Does anyone really want to fix this?"
Nez Perces Amarr Metatron Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.10 03:08:00 - [156] Edited by: Nez Perces on 10/11/2007 03:08:40 Originally by: Plutonian Perhaps my question should be: "Does anyone really want to fix this?" I believe the issue are obvious. Lasers require very high pg. Lasers require lots of cap. EM damage does least damage of all damage types when taking base resistances into account and the fact that the omni-tank is so prevalent. Dealing with any two of these issues would go a long way to solve the amarr problem..... but the exact technicalities of it only CCP can decide because they have all the data and have the best understanding of how any changes would affect the overall balance of the game. Its not a complicated issue.. its an overlooked one... and therefore there is not a whole lot our suggestions can help. The devs know there is a problem, it just seems none of them can be bothered to look into it, perhaps for the reasons I outlined in my previous post... hell if I know.. maybe they are RP'ing it and making Amarr pay dearly for the attack on the jovians.
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.10 03:19:00 - [157] Originally by: Nez Perces ... And by the choice of race/avatar, their perspective will be slanted towards one race or another, its human nature... [/i] Not always. Otherwise why am I wasting time here when I run a Gallente and a Minmatar toon? Brings up a good point though: Every complaint and/or petition I read/hear (on forums, over TS, in day-to-day life, etc.) tends to go through a filter process in my brain, and end up in one of two categories. There is "What Is Right" and then there is "What is Right For Me". Sadly, most of what I hear people say goes into the second category. Meaning their opinion is heavily influenced by their own personal desires. I guess there is nothing wrong with that... seems most of humanity is that way. But when you're talking about game balance; well, I want a level playing field. If Amarr are gimped, then they should be fixed... even though I don't play Amarr (and apparently tend to get killed by them more often than not ). I think things would run smoother if people stopped and examined if their demands/requests fall into the first category or the second. Won't hold my breath on that though.
Nez Perces Amarr Metatron Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.10 03:26:00 - [158] Originally by: Plutonian Not always. Otherwise why am I wasting time here when I run a Gallente and a Minmatar toon? Well tbh it was just a possible explanation for the lack of Amarr love... mainly for the absence of a better one. I hope I am not right ofc However, on the other thread raging here on this section, Rell's thread where are the devs are responding to questions... allow me to quote: Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Pheonix Kanan Originally by: CCP Zulupark I still think that the root of the problem is omni tanking and high natural EM resistances. Does this mean that you plan to nerf omni tanks as well or just the natural armor resistance to EM damage? It means we've identified the problem, we haven't started working on solutions. It very much seems like the devs are aware of the problem with Amarr.. the next step is to obviously do something about it.. this is then a time/resource allocation problem with CCP. And like in any company running a business, they prioritise. One has to wonder how far down that list of priorities amarr are? And track record shows that since Amarr have been wallowing in mediocrity (and thats puttint it nicely) for a good couple of years now.. its not really that high. Which then brings you back to the real question... why is this?
Corwain Gallente Down In Flames	Posted - 2007.11.10 03:27:00 - [159] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn To those arguing the credibility of the Dominix setup, I have a Gallente alt, and have flown that Dominix setup. It requires a lot of RCU to make it fit, but load it up with a shield tank, and it'll melt anyone it meets! A slightly more realistic setup is one with Ions, which still gives more DPS than the Armageddon with Mega Pulse lasers. Then you should sell your gallente alt and go back to only playing Amarr. As you need a MWD and a cap booster on a blasterboat by default you now have 3 mids to shield tank with. Active tanking is pretty much out of the question at this point, so what...1 LSE II and 2 Invuln IIs? Not to mention to fit a shieldtank you're gonna run into worse CPU problems than the Mega has. This is ignoring how much more useful you will be to the gang you're limited to flying in if you had less dps but some actual tank and tackle. Mega does it much better with 50-100dps less but fielding an actual tank. No smart Domi pilot will be flying with anything but Electron Blaster Cannons on their Domi, and most use Medium blasters and fit for tank. The Domi is not a very damaging ship like you try to skew it to be. You fail at flying Gallente, perhaps you fail at Amarr too and that is your problem? --
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.10 03:39:00 - [160] Originally by: Nez Perces And track record shows that since Amarr have been wallowing in mediocrity (and thats putting it nicely) for a good couple of years now.. its not really that high. Which then brings you back to the real question... why is this? Dude... they had to get Heat out. Don't you see how important Heat is to the game? Seriously... who knows? I'm 99% certain they have bosses above them directing where time and effort is spent. And probably bosses over them. Thank you for your clear-cut analysis of the problem. Having only trained Amarr frigates, I was in the dark on anything larger.

Ray Beams Under the Wings of Fury Atrocitas	Posted - 2007.11.10 03:40:00 - [161] as a friendly reminder, until there is a change ammo for all guns option, the argument of swaping crystals instantly is not really true (right click and select ammo for 8 guns still is a big waste of time, in the end the gain of time is minimal)
Nez Perces Amarr Metatron Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.10 03:51:00 - [162] Edited by: Nez Perces on 10/11/2007 03:56:01 Originally by: Ray Beams as a friendly reminder, until there is a change ammo for all guns option, the argument of swaping crystals instantly is not really true (right click and select ammo for 8 guns still is a big waste of time, in the end the gain of time is minimal) That whole argument is ****** anyhow... swapping crystals. Lmao. In pvp you don't swap crystals that often..... you go into battle knowing pretty much what range you gonna be firing at. And then if you throw in lag, forget it. Changing crystals in pvp means you did something wrong already. In pve, yeah swapping crystals/ammo comes into its own. However, its no good to you if you cannot break the tank of a rat that isn't blood raider/sansha for love nor money. E.g I have a Navy Apoc, techII L guns, the works... and i can only kill sansha's and blood raiders with it. A 500k guristas rat or angel rat laughs in my face. All other races have a ship they can use to kill any rats. (gallente can whip out the dominix, caldari can choose their missiles, minmatar chose their projectiles) But no, not amarr, we have to suffer for our sins with lasers. I'm doing missions for Amarr navy, 70% of the missions are killing guristas rats. You know what the guns are that I most use on my ship.... yeah you guessed it 425 railguns. An amarr navy apoc having to fit 425 railguns to do amarr navy missions is g0d** heresy. Tbh since the emperor was assasinated its all been down hill. [edit:typos]
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.10 04:25:00 - [163] Originally by: Nez Perces All other races have a ship they can use to kill any rats. (gallente can whip out the dominix, caldari can choose their missiles, minmatar chose their projectiles) But no, not amarr, we have to suffer for our sins with lasers. I'm doing missions for Amarr navy, 70% of the missions are killing guristas rats. You know what the guns are that I most use on my ship.... yeah you guessed it 425 railguns. An amarr navy apoc having to fit 425 railguns to do amarr navy missions is g0d**** heresy. Tbh since the emperor was assasinated its all been down hill. Curious: What type of stats would you create for a crystal which would allow access to the other damage types? What ranges would it/they work in?
Menkaure Amarr Vanitas Corp.	Posted - 2007.11.10 04:28:00 - [164] Nice research, summed up what alot of us were thinking nicely. Hope it gets some dev-love in some forum answers/ingame fixes.
Nez Perces Amarr Metatron Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.10 04:37:00 - [165] Edited by: Nez Perces on 10/11/2007 04:42:22 Originally by: Plutonian Originally by: Nez Perces All other races have a ship they can use to kill any rats. (gallente can whip out the dominix, caldari can choose their missiles, minmatar chose their projectiles) But no, not amarr, we have to suffer for our sins with lasers. I'm doing missions for Amarr navy, 70% of the missions are killing guristas rats. You know what the guns are that I most use on my ship.... yeah you guessed it 425 railguns. An amarr navy apoc having to fit 425 railguns to do amarr navy missions is g0d**** heresy. Tbh since the emperor was assasinated its all been down hill. Curious: What type of stats would you create for a crystal which would allow access to the other damage types? What ranges would it/they work in? The example I produced is just the tip of the iceberg. Its the most preposterous example I could think of. Yeah so if Amarr could do another damage type somehow, like projectiles do... that would solve the problem. This is an internet fantasy/space game, so you have a lot of poetic licence so to speak, in regards to game mechanics. Tbh if Amarr could do different damage by choosing different crystal types, similar to how minmatar can.. that would satisfy me. Screw realism, its a game... the issue is that as an amarr pilot I should be able to do damage with maxed laser skills, other than just em/thermal. The other races can!! (or if not armour resistances in general need to have their em values reduced drastically) And if you really wanted to have some semblance of realism.. you could have frequency crystals that are geared towards heating up certain material types to a temperature whereby you cause a chain reaction event of some kind. For example... crystals that you shoot caldari ships with, crystals you shoot minmatar with, crystals you shoot gallente with. When they heat up the armour of the target ship (which is made of a material which the different races prefer to build their ships out of) to a certain temperature a chain reaction happens causing a percentage of explosive or kinetic damage. Look I thought of that in 2 minutes.. surely CCP can do something of the kind. [edit:clarity]
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.10 04:47:00 - [166] Originally by: Plutonian We can argue and snipe each other, and eventually less and less people will visit the thread. It will finally drop into obscurity along with the rest of Boost Amarr threads. All time served here will be wasted, and the developers (which have asked for feedback and suggestions multiple times) will ignore it and make their own decisions. But wouldn't it be nice if the players had some input into the process? And were able to suggest some changes which might actually resolve these issues? Change is going to occur one way or another... at least if some options are put forth some measure of control might be found. Very few pilots are suggesting changes which might fix the problem. Are you telling me most Amarr pilots don't know what it would take to fix their own ships? That the majority can't suggest what should be done to a.) make them competitive while b.) not causing them to become so uber they must be nerfed 3 months down the road? I find that hard to believe. You can tell me Amarr is broken... and that doesn't fix a damn thing. You can speculate on the causes. You can prove it with solid, legitimate, unbiased data... hell, we can argue over bits of data forever if needed... and still that does not fix the problem. Sofring Eternus seemed to have a great suggestion (Pg.5 of this thread, reply 129). It seems to solve the issues for all the Amarr T1 ships, and some of the T2 ships. I'm curious if it could have unforseen consequences, but can't seem to get a reply from the experts. (It doesn't fix the HAC's, but that's why I asked what Amarr pilots thought could be done with them. Didn't get a response to that either.) Perhaps my question should be: "Does anyone really want to fix this?" 1) Amarr ships with a - cap usage for lasers need to be turned into either + cap or + cap recharge. (a bonus just to use your weps is a sign of underpowerdness) 2) Lasers need to use less PG and CPU to make it fitable inline with all the other weps in the game. (try fitting a rack of tachs on anything) 3) Lasers need to do more damage. (omni tank + high EM therm on base resist is biase agains amarr) 4) Lasers need a cap usage reduction. (weps should be able to run with similar run times as other cap usage weps) To the OP great post, we all know the probs with amarr but this really showes them on papper.
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.10 05:26:00 - [167] Originally by: Nez Perces Yeah so if Amarr could do another damage type somehow, like projectiles do... that would solve the problem. This is an internet fantasy/space game, so you have a lot of poetic licence so to speak, in regards to game mechanics. Tbh if Amarr could do different damage by choosing different crystal types, similar to how minmatar can.. that would satisfy me. I'd have to agree with this... but there should be some limitations. Caldari can choose their damage type on missile boats. The rail-ships are stuck with kinetic and thermal. Gallente can choose their damage type by selecting appropriate drones, but note that not every ship features a Dominix-sized drone bay... when dealing with hybrids, they do only two damage types. Minmatar (who actually appear most free in this department) can choose their ammo type on all ships, but note the ammo has various restrictions in range and damage (EMP being the most damaging T1 and dealing 3 types of damage, but has the greatest range penalty). Originally by: Nez Perces And if you really wanted to have some semblance of realism.. you could have frequency crystals that are geared towards heating up certain material types to a temperature whereby you cause a chain reaction event of some kind. For example... crystals that you shoot caldari ships with, crystals you shoot minmatar with, crystals you shoot gallente with. When they heat up the armour of the target ship (which is made of a material which the different races prefer to build their ships out of) to a certain temperature a chain reaction happens causing a percentage of explosive or kinetic damage. Look I thought of that in 2 minutes.. surely CCP can do something of the kind. Actually, I wasn't seeking the techno-babble stuff made up to support the decisions (I call it fluff). You're absolutely right, that's easy to make up. I was looking for numbers. For instance, a Microwave M crystal does 8 EM and 4 THERM damage, but has a -40 modifier to range and a -25 capacitor need bonus. What kind of stats would your crystal which allows kinetic damage have? What drawbacks? I believe the key here is not to go crazy and create some monster of a crystal which will WTFBBQ everything out there; anything obviously overpowered will not only be dismissed by the developers, but also incur the wrath of non-Amarr pilots. So it has to fix the Amarr problem, without being overpowered. The reason I ask this stuff is this: If a game plan which is acceptable to most of the community is created (a fix which Amarr, Minnie, Caldari, and Gallente pilots can agree is reasonable), and hard numbers are set forth (i.e., replace so-and-so crystal which never had any real use with this crystal which as so-and-so stats), and then this proposal is packaged up and submitted to the developers as a possible solution/starting point... well, that has a far greater chance of getting the problem fixed than simply stating "Cap use should be lower on beams." I honestly don't know if the devs would listen... but it stands a better chance than just proclaiming 'this is broken'.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.10 05:58:00 - [168] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 10/11/2007 06:05:52 Originally by: Corwain The Domi is not a very damaging ship like you try to skew it to be. You fail at flying Gallente, perhaps you fail at Amarr too and that is your problem? From the Ships section on the forums I pulled the following builds: Armageddon: Hi û 7 x Megapulse-II w/Multifrequency Crystal Mid û 3 x Cap Recharger-II Low û 1 x LAR-II 3 x Active Hardeners 3 x Heatsink-II Drones û 5 x Ogre-II Effective Hitpoints û 41,418 Total DPS û 1,060 Volley Damage û 2,417 Cap Lasts: 3 minutes 17 seconds Top Speed: 156 m/s Align Time: 16.4 seconds Sensor Strength: 17 Scan Resolution: 137.5 Range (Optimal+Falloff): 15+10 Dominix: Hi- 6 x Ion Blaster-II w/Antimatter Mid- 1 x 100mn AB-II 4 x Cap Recharger-II Low- 1 x LAR-II 2 x Energized Adaptive Nano 1 x Damage Control Unit-II 1 x Reactor Control Unit-II 2 x Magnetic Field Stabilizer-II Drones 5 x Ogre-II (note the Dominix can carry 3 full sets of heavies/sentries/EWàmix and match as you like) Effective Hitpoints û 55,788 Total DPS û 1,044 Volley Damage û 2,297 Cap Lasts: 3 minutes 39 seconds (assuming AB is running) or 7 minutes 17 seconds (assuming AB is off) Top Speed: 395 m/s Align Time: 23.1 seconds w/AB on or 15.7 seconds with AB off Sensor Strength: 22 Scan Resolution: 112.5 Range (Optimal + Falloff): 3.8+10 The Armageddon versus the Dominix we see the Arma has the best DPS but only barely edges out the Dominix in that category (and that is using the highest DPS lasers versus the second tier lasers for the Dominix). For that the Dominix gets better tank, faster speed, harder to jam, can shoot its guns a lot longer and, not least by a long shot, can have three full sets of heavies to play with (EW, DPS, Sentryàwhatever). Dominix wins here hands downànot even close really. Range? The Domi can put its drones on the Arma immediately and will spend at max 1 minute closing range where the Arma can get free shots. If the Domi throws webber drones can be faster still. Once the Domi is in range it is all over for the Arma. More to the point though the Domi is a VASTLY more flexible ship. Don't like the build above? Lots of things you can do to change it. Mix up your drones. Put EW in mids. Go for more gank or more tank. Maybe a pile of Neuts high and let the drones eat the enemy alive when their cap breaks. The Arma is a one trick pony (as are most Amarr laserboats). It is not going to have a MWD on it and even an AB hurts badly to run. It is not going to have EW. It is not going to suprise you with different drones (sentrys or EW drones). It is not going to keep unloading drones as you kill them. Domi beats the Arma handily in pretty much every category.
Sofring Eternus Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:33:00 - [169] Thank you for the nod Plutonian, I'm going to repost the idea here, as well as some idea's I've had in another thread: Quote: Duplicate exactly the hybrid stats, then double the cap use and range of blasters, and double the cap use and double(tracking/rof etc) of rails. Thus Amarr arent fighting for the DPS spot of Gallente, the 50% cap use bonus is still good. And the guns are unique without having so many drawbacks. Note: Would still need to adjust the CPU and PowerGrid usages such that the Lasers use 35% more grid than their Hybrid counterpart, and 15% less CPU. Quote: I would like to make it so that each Amarr T1 ship only has as many high slots as it has turret slots. -then move spare high slots to mid until they they have up to 4 mids -once they have 4 mids move remaining spare highs to lows. (cruiser or smaller ships could have 3 mids to keep amarr flavor if needed) These "extra" low slots will allow: More RCU / PDU to help with beam fitting or cap use. Or more Heat sinks for Pulse ganking. Or more Plates / EANM / Hardners for much better tanking. Quote:** ALTERNATELY: Make 10% to Energy weapon cap use == 10% to all module cap use. This allows us to utilize that extra high on Neuts that will have a nice bonus, and also help out with armor tanking. (Might even help with MWDs to a great extent) None of the ideas are very elegant, but then again the Amarr are not a very elegant people. From the EvE Chronicles: Progress is a term alien to the Amarrians. ItÆs almost like this huge empire was built on pure coincidence and luck. But once you get to know their intricate system you get the feeling that theyÆre like this great big beast trudging heedlessly onwards, trampling any opposition. Their advancements are not by leaps and bounds, but rather through deliberate and articulate planning that can span decades, even centuries. --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ
Nez Perces Amarr Metatron Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:52:00 - [170] Originally by: EVE chronicles Their advancements are not by leaps and bounds, but rather through deliberate and articulate planning that can span decades, even centuries. Unfortunately CCP seem to be taking this description literally.

Sofring Eternus Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.10 07:18:00 - [171] Originally by: Nez Perces Originally by: EVE chronicles Their advancements are not by leaps and bounds, but rather through deliberate and articulate planning that can span decades, even centuries. Unfortunately CCP seem to be taking this description literally. I wish, the opposite of leaps and bounds would be lots and lots of small steps. Having seen no steps for so long, the only way to meet the century timeline would require a MWD assisted leap --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ
pershphanie Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2007.11.10 07:18:00 - [172] /signed Everyone knows amarr is completely broken, the question is what to do about it. Here is my "final solution" to the "amarr problem". There are so many small problems that it's hard to fix them all with out breaking something else. 1) The only damage types available to Amarr happen to be the most tanked types. EM and Thermal are the only dmg types available due to logic. You can't really do kinetic or explosive damage with a beam of light. Solution: Switch hybrids to a kinetic/explosive damage combo resulting in people diversifying their tank setups. Sounds odd. But makes sense. Benefits both amarr and gallente really but also makes caldari more resistant to gallente damage types. Makes sense from an RP standpoint. Might balance out the game better. 2) Amarr is the "cap race" yet on most amarr ships cap is the biggest negative about them in one way or another. Amarr has the only weapon systems that require a bonus to effectively use them(10% to reduced cap use for energy weapons). Since no other race needs a bonus to use its weapon systems it's means Amarr ships get one less bonus than any other ship. On the ships without this bonus it means they have to divert more slots to cap mods than any other ship. Either way, Amarr gets unfairly screwed. Solutions: a) Exaggerate the supposed weaknesses of other races. Reduce the tracking on projectiles, range on hybrids, and either ROF or CPU needs for missiles. ex - minmatar ships would need either a tracking bonus or a tracking mods to be effective at all. If Amarr ships can't be effective unless you address their weaknesses why should other races? b) boost cap recharge on amarr ships making "the cap race" a strength rather than a weakness. Boost it enough so the "10% reduced cap use for lasers" bonus is no longer needed. This would finally give amarr ships some much needed flexibility on its setups. Also would allow us to get rid of that nonbonus and replace it with real bonuses. Maybe then the apoc would no longer be the most boring ship in eve. 3) This one is simple. Tweak the dmg output and on lasers so they do more DPS than projectiles. Projectiles are supposed to have greater alpha strike abilities and lasers should do more DPS. Blaster boats are almost always drone ships as well so lasers should do more dps than blasters alone. Blasters + drones should still out damage lasers. A bit more tracking on lasers wouldn't be terrible either. Why some or all of these things have not been done yet is beyond me. It's not a question of whether or not these things should be done, it's just a question of how much boosting needs to happen. ------>PҼſϚի<------
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.10 07:32:00 - [173] Originally by: pershphanie You can't really do kinetic or explosive damage with a beam of light. Apparently CCP just hates comparisons to real life but whether they like it or not there is an energy weapon that does kinetic damage. It's called a Particle Beam and was invented in 1958. Point being there is a perfectly acceptable ENERGY weapon which are the Amarr thing that actually does kinetic damage. That and there really in no such thing as EM damage from a laser...should all be thermal but whatever. We must bow to the make believe gods.
Arthur Frayn Veterans Of Liberation Ltd.	Posted - 2007.11.10 08:29:00 - [174] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 10/11/2007 08:31:02 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: pershphanie You can't really do kinetic or explosive damage with a beam of light. Apparently CCP just hates comparisons to real life but whether they like it or not there is an energy weapon that does kinetic damage. It's called a Particle Beam and was invented in 1958. Dude, that's an ion/electron/neutron blaster. Except instead of a solid stream of particles, blasters in eve contain them in magnetic fields.. -- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.10 08:52:00 - [175] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Dude, that's an ion/electron/neutron blaster. Except instead of a solid stream of particles, blasters in eve contain them in magnetic fields.. Blasters shoot a "ball" of subatomic particles. A particle beam shoots, well, a beam...like a laser.
Titus Lewis Viziam	Posted - 2007.11.10 09:34:00 - [176] Signed.
Tenebrys Promethean Industries R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.10 09:52:00 - [177] Signed. From the day I first started looking at Amarr ships and their capabilities, I knew that something was horribly, horribly wrong. Amarr have no advantages over other races at present -- though boy do their lasers suck against everybody's favorite Minmatar HAC, the Vagabond. Fun. Six pages without any love from the devs. Wonder how long this'll go on...
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:02:00 - [178] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Amarr use lasers. Ships are made of metal. Laser bounces off metal. Laser does less damage. Where is the problem with that ? At least Amarr ships tank armor damage like there is no tomorrow. An Minmatar get :+15m/s speed bonus .... : NO 10 second reload (insta crystal switch on range/dmg/type) : NO reload (unless you have to) : NO need to carry ammo Go fly a flimsy Minmatar ship, with mixed projectile/missile/speed bonuses, and then say that Amarr are nerfed. Its like saying Ravens are no use when you do Caldari missions. Wut better tanking? Tanking is for a large part based on the amount of cap available. And quite frankly when firing your lasers then amarr suddenly become the worst cap race (with the exception of the khanid t2 ships). --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
NUKUNNI TRADING Amarr Antares Frontier The Fifth Race	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:37:00 - [179] Cap: Broken Laser Damage: Broken Laser Range: Broken - Outranged by all other races snipers Tanking: Broken by Broken Cap Damage Sustainability: Broken by Broken Cap Damage inflicting ability: Broken by compulsory primarily EM output Tracking on Long range weapons: Broken Recons: Broken by Nos Nerf - I mean LOL... WTF? EW: Broken by having the fewest mids of all races Amarr, a proud race, consigned to the dustbin of Eve history Still the Sac in alright, once you get within 15km Signed, Signed and Signed - Come on CCP, wake the **** up
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:42:00 - [180] Originally by: NUKUNNI TRADING Cap: Broken Laser Damage: Broken Laser Range: Broken - Outranged by all other races snipers Tanking: Broken by Broken Cap Damage Sustainability: Broken by Broken Cap Damage inflicting ability: Broken by compulsory primarily EM output Tracking on Long range weapons: Broken Recons: Broken by Nos Nerf - I mean LOL... WTF? EW: Broken by having the fewest mids of all races Amarr, a proud race, consigned to the dustbin of Eve history Still the Sac in alright, once you get within 15km Signed, Signed and Signed - Come on CCP, wake the **** up ammar have the BEST long range tracking!!! People need to learn to check stats before propagating myths like beams have poor trackign and pulse have good tracking. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:44:00 - [181] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime : NO 10 second reload (insta crystal switch on range/dmg/type) : NO reload (unless you have to) : NO need to carry ammo The poor fall-off of laser weapons means that you have to change your crystals more frequently, since it is more likely that your opponent will move out of the sweet zone of your guns. And changing crystals mid-battle is seldom instantaneous, especially when the "load a gun with another gun's crystal" bug strikes. As for not having to carry ammo, not only do T2 and AN crystals occasionally break, but the cap requirements of lasers often necessitates the fitting of cap boosters. Those charges take up a far bit of space. And whilst we're on the subject of ammo, the value of crystals carried by Amarrian ships frequently surpasses the value of the ammo carried by the ships of other races. Meaning that when you die, you lose more. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Ooyama Caldari Rastana CMP	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:51:00 - [182] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Jaabaa Prime : NO 10 second reload (insta crystal switch on range/dmg/type) : NO reload (unless you have to) : NO need to carry ammo The poor fall-off of laser weapons means that you have to change your crystals more frequently, since it is more likely that your opponent will move out of the sweet zone of your guns. And changing crystals mid-battle is seldom instantaneous, especially when the "load a gun with another gun's crystal" bug strikes. As for not having to carry ammo, not only do T2 and AN crystals occasionally break, but the cap requirements of lasers often necessitates the fitting of cap boosters. Those charges take up a far bit of space. And whilst we're on the subject of ammo, the value of crystals carried by Amarrian ships frequently surpasses the value of the ammo carried by the ships of other races. Meaning that when you die, you lose more. Also, one thing many seem to forget,, TRY BEING FORCED TO DO MAINLY EM AND THERM!!!! There goes your possibilities for any serious PVP / PVE,, as you're then QUITE restricted regarding what opponents u can harm,, Just my 2-isk,, Ooyama. Originally by: Bimjo you sir are quite right my humble apologies I shall park my navy raven in 0.0 for you to come and destroy with your ducktaped missile launcher on your shuttle
King Aires Amarr Dragonian Freelancers KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:53:00 - [183] How could anyone in their right mind look at the OP and not say something is wrong here. CCP: You dont have to make us the DPS king, you dont have to make us the Tank King, You dont even have to make us the CAP king... but make us AT LEAST ONE of these... Caldari - Shield King Gallente - DPS KING Min - SPEED and SHIELD Amarr - the sound of crickets The views expressed above are not those of my corp or an expression of where my corp stands.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:59:00 - [184] Originally by: Plutonian Curious: What type of stats would you create for a crystal which would allow access to the other damage types? What ranges would it/they work in? I remember a long time ago when T2 ammo was being tested on SISI, CCP had an explosive crystal for Amarr. Minmatar pilots whined to high heaven because it would rip them apart. And so we never got given it. In my opinion a high damage explosive-only crystal with some massive tracking penalties would be rather useful. ============================================
Dark Flare Caldari Corpus PCG The State	Posted - 2007.11.10 12:06:00 - [185] This thread is lol-worthy to the extreme. You're complaining that Amarr can't tank as well as a Scorpion using all 8 slots for tank? Well if you use all 8 slots for tank, you may as well just self destruct. You're complaining they don't do as much DPS as a gank mega? =/ They do that dps at 15km, meaning at anything above about 4km they're outdps-ing the Mega. Also, if I were FCing a BS gang, I'd ask for nothing but Geddons if I could. They're easily the most versatile and useful BS in the game for gang warfare.
Dark Flare Caldari Corpus PCG The State	Posted - 2007.11.10 12:07:00 - [186] Originally by: N1fty Originally by: Plutonian Curious: What type of stats would you create for a crystal which would allow access to the other damage types? What ranges would it/they work in? I remember a long time ago when T2 ammo was being tested on SISI, CCP had an explosive crystal for Amarr. Minmatar pilots whined to high heaven because it would rip them apart. And so we never got given it. In my opinion a high damage explosive-only crystal with some massive tracking penalties would be rather useful. Wrong. Minmatar resist hole is kinetic for a start. Minmatar whined because EXP is our "thing".
Dark Flare Caldari Corpus PCG The State	Posted - 2007.11.10 12:10:00 - [187] Originally by: King Aires Caldari - Shield King, useless in PvP Gallente - DPS KING, terrible range Min - SPEED and SHIELD. I'll give you speed, Minmatar shield tanks are a bit naff tbh. Amarr - Best range, best at switching range quickly, incredible tanks. Fixed it for you.
Ooyama Caldari Rastana CMP	Posted - 2007.11.10 12:27:00 - [188] Originally by: Dark Flare This thread is lol-worthy to the extreme. You're complaining that Amarr can't tank as well as a Scorpion using all 8 slots for tank? Well if you use all 8 slots for tank, you may as well just self destruct. You're complaining they don't do as much DPS as a gank mega? =/ They do that dps at 15km, meaning at anything above about 4km they're outdps-ing the Mega. Also, if I were FCing a BS gang, I'd ask for nothing but Geddons if I could. They're easily the most versatile and useful BS in the game for gang warfare. Originally by: Dark Flare Originally by: King Aires Caldari - Shield King, useless in PvP Gallente - DPS KING, terrible range Min - SPEED and SHIELD. I'll give you speed, Minmatar shield tanks are a bit naff tbh. Amarr - Best range, best at switching range quickly, incredible tanks. Fixed it for you. You might make these statements,, but how come it be then that you state (regarding damage) that "that's our (minmatar) thing"?? I seriously doubt you fly much in Amarr-ships,,, Best range and incredible tanks you say,,, i say prove that! I can't name 1 Amarr-ship that can't be outranged,, or 1 that can't be outtanked,, so,, i'd like you to post some sort of proof of those claims. Originally by: Dark Flare You're complaining they don't do as much DPS as a gank mega? =/ They do that dps at 15km, meaning at anything above about 4km they're outdps-ing the Mega. Mention (please) 1 (one) PvP situation, where you'd be fighting at 15 km's (a realistic one please)? I've done a fair bit of that, being a ex-merc, and i've yet to see a PvP situation where the combat was all longrange (and on top of that all EM/Therm damage was the key-ingridient to victory). Ooyama. Originally by: Bimjo you sir are quite right my humble apologies I shall park my navy raven in 0.0 for you to come and destroy with your ducktaped missile launcher on your shuttle
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.10 12:36:00 - [189] Originally by: N1fty Originally by: Plutonian Curious: What type of stats would you create for a crystal which would allow access to the other damage types? What ranges would it/they work in? I remember a long time ago when T2 ammo was being tested on SISI, CCP had an explosive crystal for Amarr. Minmatar pilots whined to high heaven because it would rip them apart. And so we never got given it. In my opinion a high damage explosive-only crystal with some massive tracking penalties would be rather useful. It would also be broken.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.10 12:39:00 - [190] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Jaabaa Prime : NO 10 second reload (insta crystal switch on range/dmg/type) : NO reload (unless you have to) : NO need to carry ammo The poor fall-off of laser weapons means that you have to change your crystals more frequently, since it is more likely that your opponent will move out of the sweet zone of your guns. And changing crystals mid-battle is seldom instantaneous, especially when the "load a gun with another gun's crystal" bug strikes. As for not having to carry ammo, not only do T2 and AN crystals occasionally break, but the cap requirements of lasers often necessitates the fitting of cap boosters. Those charges take up a far bit of space. And whilst we're on the subject of ammo, the value of crystals carried by Amarrian ships frequently surpasses the value of the ammo carried by the ships of other races. Meaning that when you die, you lose more. AGAIn stop propagating MYTHs if you dotn understand game mechanics!! There is NO sweet zone. Under optimal it does not matter your fallof. You have NO penalty under optimal, zero nada glitch. Fallof only concerns OUT of fallof. So lasers with superior range have it EASY to have target on optimal. Its their ONLY advantage. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

Judas Jones Amarr Black Company	Posted - 2007.11.10 12:41:00 - [191] Edited by: Judas Jones on 10/11/2007 12:42:05 Excellently constructed post OP Anyone that 'specialises' in Amarr, as in actually flyÆs them with maxed skills will know the absolute truth of what you say. Especially considering once you specialise in Amarr you immediately look at another race to transfer to CCP has failed the Amarr ship/weapon community as they continue to develop this Caldari Online for the PvE's and Minny Online for the PvP's with Galles sitting quite comfy in the middle!
Sedyna	Posted - 2007.11.10 12:45:00 - [192] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Jaabaa Prime : NO 10 second reload (insta crystal switch on range/dmg/type) : NO reload (unless you have to) : NO need to carry ammo The poor fall-off of laser weapons means that you have to change your crystals more frequently, since it is more likely that your opponent will move out of the sweet zone of your guns. And changing crystals mid-battle is seldom instantaneous, especially when the "load a gun with another gun's crystal" bug strikes. As for not having to carry ammo, not only do T2 and AN crystals occasionally break, but the cap requirements of lasers often necessitates the fitting of cap boosters. Those charges take up a far bit of space. And whilst we're on the subject of ammo, the value of crystals carried by Amarrian ships frequently surpasses the value of the ammo carried by the ships of other races. Meaning that when you die, you lose more. AGAIn stop propagating MYTHs if you dotn understand game mechanics!! There is NO sweet zone. Under optimal it does not matter your fallof. You have NO penalty under optimal, zero nada glitch. Fallof only concerns OUT of fallof. So lasers with superior range have it EASY to have target on optimal. Its their ONLY advantage. He is right though 15km multifreq 20km x-ray 25 km ultraviolet 30km standard for max DPS.
Ooyama Caldari Rastana CMP	Posted - 2007.11.10 12:45:00 - [193] Originally by: Judas Jones Edited by: Judas Jones on 10/11/2007 12:42:05 Excellently constructed post OP Anyone that 'specialises' in Amarr, as in actually flyÆs them with maxed skills will know the absolute truth of what you say. Especially considering once you specialise in Amarr you immediately look at another race to transfer to CCP has failed the Amarr ship/weapon community as they continue to develop this Caldari Online for the PvE's and Minny Online for the PvP's with Galles sitting quite comfy in the middle! TBH,, i actually switched my raven for an abaddon,, for missions ,, in an attempt of making it harder to run missions (they where getting too easy). Only problem i got was that i had to switch back to L3's,,!!! Ooyama. Originally by: Bimjo you sir are quite right my humble apologies I shall park my navy raven in 0.0 for you to come and destroy with your ducktaped missile launcher on your shuttle
Skeltem Amarr Trident Future Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.10 13:11:00 - [194] Very thorough analysis. As an Amarr pilot myself, I can verify many of the issues raised in your OP. I am currently training to Minmatar, eschewing all RP pretense because EVE just can't hold up any RP if the races are that unbalanced. Good, tho, you can fly ships of all races.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.10 13:36:00 - [195] Originally by: Ooyama Originally by: Dark Flare You're complaining they don't do as much DPS as a gank mega? =/ They do that dps at 15km, meaning at anything above about 4km they're outdps-ing the Mega. Mention (please) 1 (one) PvP situation, where you'd be fighting at 15 km's (a realistic one please)? I've done a fair bit of that, being a ex-merc, and i've yet to see a PvP situation where the combat was all longrange (and on top of that all EM/Therm damage was the key-ingridient to victory). I really wish people would stop talking about range like this, because Ooyama is 100% on the money... You never engage at 15km and sit there... It's just not possible in a BS fight to hold your enemy at 15km. Either you're fighting at 100-200km ranges sniping, or you're fighting at 0-2km ganking! The thing with falloff also means that with close range crystals, Amarr can shoot to 15km with full damage, then 18km with half damage and 21km with no damage. Minmatar can shoot to 20km with half damage and out to 40km with dwindling damage, so rarely need to change ammo. And there is a sweet-spot for damage in range, I linked it in the main bulk of posts... It's in a dev blog there, check out the graphs... The graphs also show that the range isn't really much of an issue when you look at it! Now if range is the only thing people can think of that isn't broken with Amarr, doesn't that still mean that the other elements I spoke about (damage, cap, tanking) are broken? As for possible solutions, my favourites so far have been: Add a cap use role bonus to every Amarr ship to complement the existing cap bonuses to make the guns fire without draining every ounce of energy... Adjust the 'Controlled Bursts' skill to 15% per level rather than 5% per level, so it actually makes a difference to Amarr (Hybrids should then have their cap use increased to balance them out, or make them the same as they are now)... Add an Explosive damage crystal type... Perhaps this could be introduced with tech-3 as the first new ammo type of Amarr... These would have the same total damage of Conflagration crystals, but do 65% explosive damage, 20% EM damage, and 15% thermal damage. These would also have a shorter range than conflagration crystals, and with the inherent addition of tech-3, they would have a very small chance to damage the weapon (ie after 200 shots or something, the weapon would be destroyed). These would also wear down faster than t2 crystals... Give all Amarr ships a higher base cap... an extra 15% on every ship should do the trick, which would make them the 'cap race'... Give all Amarr ships more powergrid to allow them to fit beam lasers, or reduce the powergrid need of beams... Change the laser cap bonus to a 'highslot' cap bonus. All highslot weapons have their cap use reduced by 50%, meaning neuts are now the Amarr's EW... These are just to spark up a creative discussion in this thread... Let's hear everyone elses solutions (and the smack against mine)! Latest Video, Click Here!
Khes	Posted - 2007.11.10 14:02:00 - [196] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Originally by: Khes Im not arguing your figures, Im arguing against that you base your case on figures that are VERY limited and ignore all the other factors, and you call it evidence when it is only a fraction of the whole truth. You'd make a very good politician. You still fail to back up your own claims with evidence, you just dispute mine. It's like disagreeing with the theory of relativity and saying 'you forgot x' but then not actually showing how this affects the result. Sorry, I just defined smacktalk! Even if I do not back up my claims with evidence I still state that there are more factors to be counted with to get the whole picture. Call it smacktalk if you like, but it is just the way it is.
ezzle Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.11.10 14:15:00 - [197] SIGNED
KingAc Minmatar North Star Networks Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.10 14:18:00 - [198] Really impresiv work mate. really a good show all the ships.
Dec V Minmatar Greenspring	Posted - 2007.11.10 14:22:00 - [199] Originally by: Bellum Eternus OP: stop playing EFT and start playing Eve FFS. Im in same alliance as Insurgency and I can testify he is a very good pvper in eve, probably way better than you anyway. He ain't as good as me but...
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2007.11.10 14:34:00 - [200] I honestly have to say that amarr does NOT need any boost but the whole tanking stupidness stinks Breaking a tank only due to a certain amount of DPS is lame in my book. armor tanking should be more about plates and less repair ... while shield tanking should be more about peak recharge beeing broken by high volly dammage and a certain amount of dps ... this does mean nerf armor reps, boost armor hitpoints this also means let shield boosters affect shield recharge time and remove shield boosters cuz they are obsolete due to shield rechargers ... this is a DIFFICULT task to do ... but come one ccp nearly 300 employees you should have some spare folk to do it ... right now shield and armor works the same way and gets boring quite fast ... Why do you brilliant guys not also think about more hight slots for all ships ... and introduce eg. racial hard points and non-racial hard points ... eg. Armageddon: 12 high slots, 7 racial hard points (for lasers) 3 non-racial hard points (can NOT be fitted with any laser, but any other) 2 utility slots tempest: 13 high slots 6 racial hard points (for cannons) 5 non-racial hard points (can NOT be fitted with any projectile weapons, but any other) 2 utility slots typhoon: 12 high slots 4 racial hard points (projectile only) 4 racial hard points (missiles only) 4 non-racial hard points (can NOT be fitted with any projectile weapons or missiles, but any other) no utility slot you get the gist ... GET CREATIVE you have the manpower to do it now ... this problems raised here are definately not an Amarr problem imo! 300 yarrr Greetings Grim

Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.10 14:49:00 - [201] Originally by: Grim Vandal I honestly have to say that amarr does NOT need any boost but the whole tanking stupidness stinks Breaking a tank only due to a certain amount of DPS is lame in my book. armor tanking should be more about plates and less repair ... while shield tanking should be more about peak recharge beeing broken by high volly dammage and a certain amount of dps ... this does mean nerf armor reps, boost armor hitpoints this also means let shield boosters affect shield recharge time and remove shield boosters cuz they are obsolete due to shield rechargers ... this is a DIFFICULT task to do ... but come one ccp nearly 300 employees you should have some spare folk to do it ... right now shield and armor works the same way and gets boring quite fast ... Why do you brilliant guys not also think about more hight slots for all ships ... and introduce eg. racial hard points and non-racial hard points ... eg. Armageddon: 12 high slots, 7 racial hard points (for lasers) 3 non-racial hard points (can NOT be fitted with any laser, but any other) 2 utility slots tempest: 13 high slots 6 racial hard points (for cannons) 5 non-racial hard points (can NOT be fitted with any projectile weapons, but any other) 2 utility slots typhoon: 12 high slots 4 racial hard points (projectile only) 4 racial hard points (missiles only) 4 non-racial hard points (can NOT be fitted with any projectile weapons or missiles, but any other) no utility slot you get the gist ... GET CREATIVE you have the manpower to do it now ... this problems raised here are definately not an Amarr problem imo! 300 yarrr Epic fail. Sorry i just don't like the idea, could be interesting, in some other game. It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Loctar Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.10 15:12:00 - [202] /signed There is no such thing as innocence, only various degrees of guilt
Milkbag	Posted - 2007.11.10 15:17:00 - [203] Originally by: Grim Vandal I honestly have to say that amarr does NOT need any boost but the whole tanking stupidness stinks Breaking a tank only due to a certain amount of DPS is lame in my book. armor tanking should be more about plates and less repair ... while shield tanking should be more about peak recharge beeing broken by high volly dammage and a certain amount of dps ... this does mean nerf armor reps, boost armor hitpoints this also means let shield boosters affect shield recharge time and remove shield boosters cuz they are obsolete due to shield rechargers ... this is a DIFFICULT task to do ... but come one ccp nearly 300 employees you should have some spare folk to do it ... right now shield and armor works the same way and gets boring quite fast ... Why do you brilliant guys not also think about more hight slots for all ships ... and introduce eg. racial hard points and non-racial hard points ... eg. Armageddon: 12 high slots, 7 racial hard points (for lasers) 3 non-racial hard points (can NOT be fitted with any laser, but any other) 2 utility slots tempest: 13 high slots 6 racial hard points (for cannons) 5 non-racial hard points (can NOT be fitted with any projectile weapons, but any other) 2 utility slots typhoon: 12 high slots 4 racial hard points (projectile only) 4 racial hard points (missiles only) 4 non-racial hard points (can NOT be fitted with any projectile weapons or missiles, but any other) no utility slot you get the gist ... GET CREATIVE you have the manpower to do it now ... this problems raised here are definately not an Amarr problem imo! 300 yarrr Said by a true PVE-er, active tanks are and will always be better then passive or duration tanks. If this is implemented, or if by god you get your way and armor reps are taken out, then a few inties can take down an armor tanking capital (remember now, armor doesnt recharge) At op: good points, and i agree for the majority but amarr still has one up on everyone else. No ammo, and to switch ammo it is 2 seconds vs 10 seconds. So against any matar AC user, as long as your tank isn't paper you have an extra 10 seconds at least of shooting and tanking inbetween reloads.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.10 15:47:00 - [204] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 10/11/2007 15:53:13 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 10/11/2007 15:48:54 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Jaabaa Prime : NO 10 second reload (insta crystal switch on range/dmg/type) : NO reload (unless you have to) : NO need to carry ammo The poor fall-off of laser weapons means that you have to change your crystals more frequently, since it is more likely that your opponent will move out of the sweet zone of your guns. And changing crystals mid-battle is seldom instantaneous, especially when the "load a gun with another gun's crystal" bug strikes. As for not having to carry ammo, not only do T2 and AN crystals occasionally break, but the cap requirements of lasers often necessitates the fitting of cap boosters. Those charges take up a far bit of space. And whilst we're on the subject of ammo, the value of crystals carried by Amarrian ships frequently surpasses the value of the ammo carried by the ships of other races. Meaning that when you die, you lose more. AGAIn stop propagating MYTHs if you dotn understand game mechanics!! There is NO sweet zone. Under optimal it does not matter your fallof. You have NO penalty under optimal, zero nada glitch. Fallof only concerns OUT of fallof. So lasers with superior range have it EASY to have target on optimal. Its their ONLY advantage. I wasn't talking about under optimal. The sweet zone that I was referring to was from a little under optimal (therefore allowing the guns to track easier) out to around optimal + 25% fall-off. My point was that guns with a large fall-off don't lose damage as fast as low fall-off weapons when shooting at ranges greater than their optimal. Therefore, if your target drifts out of your optimal and in to fall-off, you're more likely to have to change ammo if you're using lasers. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Dark Flare Caldari Corpus PCG The State	Posted - 2007.11.10 15:49:00 - [205] Originally by: Ooyama Originally by: Dark Flare This thread is lol-worthy to the extreme. You're complaining that Amarr can't tank as well as a Scorpion using all 8 slots for tank? Well if you use all 8 slots for tank, you may as well just self destruct. You're complaining they don't do as much DPS as a gank mega? =/ They do that dps at 15km, meaning at anything above about 4km they're outdps-ing the Mega. Also, if I were FCing a BS gang, I'd ask for nothing but Geddons if I could. They're easily the most versatile and useful BS in the game for gang warfare. Originally by: Dark Flare Originally by: King Aires Caldari - Shield King, useless in PvP Gallente - DPS KING, terrible range Min - SPEED and SHIELD. I'll give you speed, Minmatar shield tanks are a bit naff tbh. Amarr - Best range, best at switching range quickly, incredible tanks. Fixed it for you. You might make these statements,, but how come it be then that you state (regarding damage) that "that's our (minmatar) thing"?? I seriously doubt you fly much in Amarr-ships,,, Best range and incredible tanks you say,,, i say prove that! I can't name 1 Amarr-ship that can't be outranged,, or 1 that can't be outtanked,, so,, i'd like you to post some sort of proof of those claims. Originally by: Dark Flare You're complaining they don't do as much DPS as a gank mega? =/ They do that dps at 15km, meaning at anything above about 4km they're outdps-ing the Mega. Mention (please) 1 (one) PvP situation, where you'd be fighting at 15 km's (a realistic one please)? I've done a fair bit of that, being a ex-merc, and i've yet to see a PvP situation where the combat was all longrange (and on top of that all EM/Therm damage was the key-ingridient to victory). Ooyama. I fly all races, just mainly Minmatar. Name a place you'd fight at 15km? Er... you mean like ANY time you jump through a gate? Yeah, you're at 15km then. In fact 15km is where most of my fighting happens. "I can't name 1 Amarr-ship that can't be outranged,, or 1 that can't be outtanked,, so,, i'd like you to post some sort of proof of those claims." So what you really want is a ship that does everything better than every other ship in the game? Amarr ships are the most well rounded, most adaptable to any situation. Obviously you can beat this with a ship set up specifically to do one thing very well, but I'd still take a fleet of Geddons over any other ship.
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.11.10 16:39:00 - [206] Originally by: Various Pilots on Both Sides of the Issue [insert argument which does not progress issue] [insert fix which goes too far the other direction] [never offer any numbers or specifics for a fix] [insert insults of other's PvP skills] I give up. You guys were right. Only the developers can fix this issue. Hope it gets sorted for you Amarr pilots. Cheers, Pluto
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.10 17:34:00 - [207] I just found these: Posted - 2007.11.08 00:50:00 (Link) Originally by: CCP Nozh Don't fret Amarr have yet to receive their "Oomph" Posted - 2007.11.09 09:39:00 (Link) Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Phantom Slave Hello CCP Zulupark and CCP Nozh. I'm not sure if you are going to return to this thread or not, but if you do I'd like to point you to another thread. Ultimate Amarr Whine Thread Bad choice in a name, but I didn't start it. Zulupark, I believe you asked for examples of what kind of Amarr ideas to get some 'Oomph'. I'll leave you with that. I hope you take a moment to read through the thread. We're aware of that thread, as well as all the comments on Amarr in this thread and will take it into consideration. Thanks Phantom Slave for bringing attention to this thread, and I've changed the name of it many times now! Latest Video, Click Here!
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.10 18:52:00 - [208] I think we have got the the point that we all understand that Amarr are broke. CCP knows that Amarr are broke. Now we need to start talking about HOW TO FIX AMARR. I think its an easy fix with 4 steps. 1) Amarr ships with a - cap usage for lasers need to be turned into either + cap or + cap recharge. (a bonus just to use your weps is a sign of underpowerdness) 2) Lasers need to use less PG and CPU to make it fitable inline with all the other weps in the game. (try fitting a rack of tachs on anything) 3) Lasers need to do more damage. (omni tank + high EM therm on base resist is biase agains amarr) 4) Lasers need a cap usage reduction. (weps should be able to run with similar run times as other cap usage weps) If CCP did those 4 things it would balace out Amarr with all the other races.
QuantumPhysics Minmatar Dirt Nap Squad	Posted - 2007.11.10 21:18:00 - [209] "Wow, really good job on the analysis. Should be quite simple for the devs to look at and realize something is majorly broken. Other things you forgot, or just failed to consider: 1. Amarr are slow as snails. Only Caldari is slower. 2. Poor scan resolution. 3. Poor tracking. 4. Poor agility. 5. Pathetic drone capability. 6. Cargo bay size is small. 7. CPU sucks. 8. Fitting is generally a pain. :) Amarr = Eve on hard mode." Sure, Amarr suck, they need boosting. But Amarr does not equal Eve on hard mod. Minmatar does. If you want to complain about how CCP isn't fair when balancing ships, go to the Ultimate Minmatar Whining Thread. I love how CCP uses "versatility" as an excuse to underpower Minmatar.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.10 21:30:00 - [210] Originally by: QuantumPhysics "Wow, really good job on the analysis. Should be quite simple for the devs to look at and realize something is majorly broken. Other things you forgot, or just failed to consider: 1. Amarr are slow as snails. Only Caldari is slower. 2. Poor scan resolution. 3. Poor tracking. 4. Poor agility. 5. Pathetic drone capability. 6. Cargo bay size is small. 7. CPU sucks. 8. Fitting is generally a pain. :) Amarr = Eve on hard mode." Sure, Amarr suck, they need boosting. But Amarr does not equal Eve on hard mod. Minmatar does. If you want to complain about how CCP isn't fair when balancing ships, go to the Ultimate Minmatar Whining Thread. ammar are faster than gallente sometimes. Pretty much tied with them. Poor scan res? No this is a tradeof on all ships. Higher scan res means lower lock range. If you get higher scan res you loose lock range, Compare minmatar and caldari POor agility? Same as gallente PAthetic drone? Its tied with minmatar in secodn place Cargo bay small? Thery dotn need ammo that is why they dotn need HUGE cargo. CPU problem? TRUE Fitting is bad? TRUE with BEAMS If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

Arachidamia The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:22:00 - [211] Edited by: Arachidamia on 10/11/2007 22:23:05 Well the problems lasers have are: Damage type problems resulting in very low realistic pvp DPS Cap problems resulting in reduced tanking ability, among other things Fitting problems, especially with beams. I propose to solve this by keeping the fitting and cap issues exactly as they are.... and giving lasers a big boost in DPS to make up for it (via a raw dps increase or introduction of other damage types). They SHOULD be a pain to fit, and suck massive amounts of cap away from your tank and other modules. But they should at least pack immense firepower in return. Thus balance is restored to lasers, but without making them more like hybrids.
Agent Alexis	Posted - 2007.11.11 02:40:00 - [212] I endorse this thread. End the NERF! Make Amarr completely invisible!
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.11 04:34:00 - [213] I respect that amarr oriented pilots feel that they have limitations, but the sad reality is that you SHOULD. Every class, every weapon, every ship, every player should have weaknesses and things that you fear. Amarr ships are fantastic, and I've never really seen an argument that requires massive changes to boost them, especially on the level that most people are demanding (boost the whole friggin race?!). I respect that you've used EFT to try to garner numbers, but let's face it....most of what you've posted, albeit thorough, is almost completely unrealistic. The dominix is a good example, as you've given it a mind blowing tank, unbelievable gank, and negelected to toss on the few RCU's it would take to even come close to making it happen. You've left out a number of factors that would sway the argument, such as the armageddon's ability to field 5 heavy drones unlike the Caldari scorpion, the only tier 1 BS that cannot. It's got the second smallest sig radius, the second best scan res, the second best speed, the best cap, etc. Sure it's got crappy things about it, like the fact that it's got the weakest sensor strength, but all around it's a damn fine ship that I'm happy to fly. Personally, I like the apoc even more, but I use it in unconventional ways. The only things that I can see that could be changed is the cap reduction use on lasers bonus on a number of ships to something more useful, and arguably changing the damage from em/therm to therm/em. Just accept the fact that you have pros and cons just like everyone else and ask for REASONABLE things. Asking to increase your dps, tank, cap, grid, drop the fitting reqs of lasers, AND give lasers at least one more damage type is absolutely RIDICULOUS. If you can't find good uses for your amarrian ships, then fly something else, because all of my friends that are amarr pilots are almost always the tops of the killmails let alone the killboards.
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.11 04:39:00 - [214] Whups, left out a glaring reality, and that is that the amarr recons need close examination and reworking.
Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.11 06:00:00 - [215] Edited by: Scav Silver on 11/11/2007 06:02:22 This is gettin' out of hand.. Some ppl just live in thier own little world.. The only Arguments againts the op are those: Realisticly, Med-Range Fights rarely happen.. If they do, they don't last.. Either, ya move away w/ mwd or ya get close w/ mwd, or, not the least, warp away.. Second, T2 crystals brake.. I'm probably not the only Amarr who would gladly trade the unbreakable T1 crystals for some better bonus.. Or even the 10 seconds recharge for the 1 second recharge w/ the bugged Reload.. The only reason ya whinnin' about the 10 second recharge is 'cause of lag durin' fleet battles.. If ya must change crystals durin' a fight, ya pretty much in the same boat as the rest.. Aside from few occasions, ya have plenty of time to have the correct crystals loaded.. And that's pretty much the only thin' that Amarr have goin' for 'em.. Now, does this little benefit outdo Most of the broken things?? Or even the Very Limited Dmg type?? Lastly, if ya really want to pull the CCP Chronicals, here is a thing ya should consider.. Amarr should use projectiles, as they are the oldest race.. á ----------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.11 06:54:00 - [216] Edited by: Scav Silver on 11/11/2007 06:54:18 Originally by: daemorhedron .. because all of my friends that are amarr pilots are almost always.. Fail.. Ya just admited the fact the never flown Amarr.. Stop postin'.. á ----------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.11 07:17:00 - [217] Edited by: daemorhedron on 11/11/2007 07:18:26 Originally by: Scav Silver Edited by: Scav Silver on 11/11/2007 06:54:18 Originally by: daemorhedron .. because all of my friends that are amarr pilots are almost always.. Fail.. Ya just admited the fact the never flown Amarr.. Stop postin'.. I clearly stated that I regularly fly both the armageddon and the apoc. Learn to read. To clarify the quote regardless, I was referring to friends that I know that deliberately choose to fly amarr over anything else. They're obviously not choosing to fly amarr because they suck, and they are clearly extremely successful with them.
Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.11 07:41:00 - [218] Originally by: daemorhedron I clearly stated that I regularly fly both the armageddon and the apoc. Learn to read. To clarify the quote regardless, I was referring to friends that I know that deliberately choose to fly amarr over anything else. They're obviously not choosing to fly amarr because they suck, and they are clearly extremely successful with them. Yeah, ya did.. But ya pretty much are sayin' ya don't fly 'em much.. Furthermore, it's called 'Pride', if ya still fly Amarr in pvp and ya good at it.. Take your poc to few battles, see how ya feel.. Take your geddon, and see how ya feel.. Now take your original BS and see the difference.. á ----------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
Ooyama Caldari Rastana CMP	Posted - 2007.11.11 08:40:00 - [219] Originally by: Dark Flare I fly all races, just mainly Minmatar. Name a place you'd fight at 15km? Er... you mean like ANY time you jump through a gate? Yeah, you're at 15km then. In fact 15km is where most of my fighting happens. "I can't name 1 Amarr-ship that can't be outranged,, or 1 that can't be outtanked,, so,, i'd like you to post some sort of proof of those claims." So what you really want is a ship that does everything better than every other ship in the game? Amarr ships are the most well rounded, most adaptable to any situation. Obviously you can beat this with a ship set up specifically to do one thing very well, but I'd still take a fleet of Geddons over any other ship. Well,, i guess we can agree to disagree,, My viewpoint on it stands, as i think the facts are like this (my viewpoints entirely, may be faulty) ; Gatecamps : yep, they start out at 15 Km's,, but a welltanked ship will usually not stay there,, and also, if u think there might be a gatecamp you'd usually send a recon in first,, hence (imo) invalid point. Ships that do anything better than any other : No, that's not what i want at all (nor do i think anyone else whould want that), but i WHOULD like just 1 point where amar (like any other race) where THE BEST at something! Amarr is the most adaptable and wellrounded : That doesn't help much now, does it. If you're in need of(i.e.) a good tankership,, do you use the best you can get,, or use a "wellrounded" mediocre one?? (on this one i DO dare you to say you'd take the mediocre one, that whould imo make YOU lolworthy),,, If you where to make a gatecamp, whould you bring use the best sniperships you could, or a "wellrounded" mediocre one,,,, I could go on, but i think you get my picture,,, there's NO reason to actually pick an Amarrship,, as there's NO situation where they are the best,,, hence (imo) the need atleast 1 ship buffed to a good place,, so they atleast have ONE thing where they are THE BEST (as all other races have). Only alternative whould be (which is impossible, imo) to lower the prices of the ships to ridiculous levels, as that whould anyways fit well with what i've heard of the BG-Story (that much of the Amarr's succes in combat relied on shere massive numbers (which whould be achievable if the cost of the ships where significantly lower). Again, just my 2-isk,, Ooyama. Originally by: Bimjo you sir are quite right my humble apologies I shall park my navy raven in 0.0 for you to come and destroy with your ducktaped missile launcher on your shuttle
UGWidowmaker Caldari Setenta Corp Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.11.11 08:54:00 - [220] all i can really say is SIGNED... Amarr suck majorly atm... .. and the race itself is dying, ccp could we get some stats on how many is making amarr as a new race and uses it as a main... OMFG I am the widowmaker stay tuned.

Yukisa	Posted - 2007.11.11 09:12:00 - [221] Good analysis. Devs really need to do some analysis of their own and get in gear to fix this problem.
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.11 09:15:00 - [222] Originally by: Scav Silver Yeah, ya did.. But ya pretty much are sayin' ya don't fly 'em much.. Furthermore, it's called 'Pride', if ya still fly Amarr in pvp and ya good at it.. Take your poc to few battles, see how ya feel.. Take your geddon, and see how ya feel.. Now take your original BS and see the difference.. Thought we just covered this. Please stop trying to rephrase what I'm saying into something I'm not. To put it simply, if Amarr sucks so bad, why does anyone fly any of their ships? QED, they don't suck. You don't like them, that's your business. They don't suit your needs, your playstyle, your gang tactics, whatever, those are all valid reasons to not fly them, but that doesn't mean that they are these horrific ships that are the worst at everything like people are trying to peg them as. I prefer small ships for a variety of reasons (Amarr inty's are my current love) but apoc remains one of my favorite ships period. I fly it as much as my raven, maelstrom or dominix(some of my other fav big ships). Is there a difference? Of course there is. But it's not WORSE, it's just DIFFERENT. Please note that I never said they were perfect as-is either, I pointed out what I felt were sustainable points against some of the amarr ships before. Definitely the complaint that the laser cap reduction 'bonus' is silly is a valid one that should be addressed, and like I said the Amarr recon needs a rework at this point too.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.11 09:41:00 - [223] Originally by: Scav Silver Edited by: Scav Silver on 11/11/2007 06:09:23 This is gettin' out of hand.. Some ppl just live in thier own little world.. The only Arguments againts the op are those: Realisticly, Med-Range Fights rarely happen.. If they do, they don't last.. Either, ya move away w/ mwd or ya get close w/ mwd, or, not the least, warp away.. Second, T2 crystals brake.. I'm probably not the only Amarr who would gladly trade the unbreakable T1 crystals for some better bonus.. Or even the 10 seconds recharge for the 1 second recharge w/ the bugged Reload.. The only reason ya whinnin' about the 10 second recharge is 'cause of lag durin' fleet battles.. If ya must change crystals durin' a fight, ya pretty much in the same boat as the rest.. Aside from few occasions, ya have plenty of time to have the correct crystals loaded.. And that's pretty much the only thin' that Amarr have goin' for 'em.. Now, does this little benefit outdo Most of the broken things?? Or even the Very Limited Dmg type?? Lastly, if ya really want to pull the CCP Chronicals, here is a thing ya should consider.. Amarr should use projectiles, as they are the oldest race.. And they are very religous; change is hard.. MAybe what should be solved then its making MED range fiughts more common!!! It would be much better for the game, we dont need ammar to be a copy of blaster gallente ships. THe problem with range on this game is the DAMM MWD. Everyone and their mother fit one, so range becomes a non issue. On ohtwer side no one fits an AB. REaaally think CCp should diminish HEAVILY the MWD speed boost. TO about 350% base on the T1 version. At least on the biggerversions. Maybe 450% for frigates 400 for 10MN and 350% for 100MN. THe path is making med range fights common, not making ammar forget its med range aspiration, and transform them on gallente clones! If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.11 10:15:00 - [224] Originally by: Kagura Nikon MAybe what should be solved then its making MED range fiughts more common!!! It would be much better for the game, we dont need ammar to be a copy of blaster gallente ships. THe problem with range on this game is the DAMM MWD. Everyone and their mother fit one, so range becomes a non issue. On ohtwer side no one fits an AB. REaaally think CCp should diminish HEAVILY the MWD speed boost. TO about 350% base on the T1 version. At least on the biggerversions. Maybe 450% for frigates 400 for 10MN and 350% for 100MN. THe path is making med range fights common, not making ammar forget its med range aspiration, and transform them on gallente clones! What else ya have in mind?? Kill Stargates?? Web Bubble?? Indeed.. It simply doesn't make any sense Gallante outgunnin' Amarr.. Gallante should use thier damn drones.. á ----------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
Dark Flare Caldari Corpus PCG The State	Posted - 2007.11.11 11:47:00 - [225] Originally by: Im Dumb I think we have got the the point that we all understand that Amarr are broke. CCP knows that Amarr are broke. Now we need to start talking about HOW TO FIX AMARR. I think its an easy fix with 4 steps. 1) Amarr ships with a - cap usage for lasers need to be turned into either + cap or + cap recharge. (a bonus just to use your weps is a sign of underpowerdness) 2) Lasers need to use less PG and CPU to make it fitable inline with all the other weps in the game. (try fitting a rack of tachs on anything) 3) Lasers need to do more damage. (omni tank + high EM therm on base resist is biase agains amarr) 4) Lasers need a cap usage reduction. (weps should be able to run with similar run times as other cap usage weps) If CCP did those 4 things it would balace out Amarr with all the other races. If CCP did those 4 things it would make Amarr the best race by quite a way. Also, if they did number 3, think of what would happen to any Caldari PvPers.
adriaans Amarr Advanced Capital Ship Designs	Posted - 2007.11.11 12:38:00 - [226] /signed It's a very good analysis. To give some of my own ideas: -rework resistance (i mean 92.5% em resists and 70%(?) on minmatar t2 ships, the others 87 and 65 :/ -make amarr the only race with em ammo? -why does amarr t2 ships get resist bonus on shields... i mean highest explo shield resist in game... very useful yeah.. -make amarr gun ships have an inbuilt -50% laser cap use, and give the ships a real bonus, optimal or tracking or even hp. -many of our ships ARE TOO HARD TO FIT! both cpu wise AND powergrid... especially cruiser sized and some battlecruiser sized ships. -cap per sec is minimal if even there as an ''advantage'' we supposedly should have... i think thats enough for a while.... --sig-- Knowledge is power!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.11 14:34:00 - [227] For all those still complaining about the Dominix setup, just to prove my case here, I'm going to change the guns on the Domi setup to Ions (needing a lot less powergrid, and therefore no reactor control units), and check the damage output: Originally by: Felysta Sandorn The Armageddon: Fitting: 7x Mega Pulse, 3x Heat Sink Ammo: Conflagration Volley Damage: 2820 Damage Per Second: 1184 The Dominix: Fitting: 6x Ion, 3x Magstab Ammo: Void Volley Damage: 2833 Damage Per Second: 1221 The Dominix still out-damages the Armageddon and all other tier 1 Battleships. It should also be noted that the Domi setup has tonnes of free CPU to fit a tank and tackling gear, whereas the Geddon lacks in that area (even after the CPU buff)... Plus, the Domi can carry spare drones (unlike the Armageddon), has 5 free midslots for EW (compared to the Geddon's 3), and only has one less lowslot! Finally, the new Dominix setup can sustain cap for over 17 minutes, while the Geddon runs short at just 4 minutes and 13 seconds... I hope that'll put to rest the complaints about the Dominix! Latest Video, Click Here!
Dark Flare Caldari Corpus PCG The State	Posted - 2007.11.11 16:42:00 - [228] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn For all those still complaining about the Dominix setup, just to prove my case here, I'm going to change the guns on the Domi setup to Ions (needing a lot less powergrid, and therefore no reactor control units), and check the damage output: Originally by: Felysta Sandorn The Armageddon: Fitting: 7x Mega Pulse, 3x Heat Sink Ammo: Conflagration Volley Damage: 2820 Damage Per Second: 1184 The Dominix: Fitting: 6x Ion, 3x Magstab Ammo: Void Volley Damage: 2833 Damage Per Second: 1221 The Dominix still out-damages the Armageddon and all other tier 1 Battleships. It should also be noted that the Domi setup has tonnes of free CPU to fit a tank and tackling gear, whereas the Geddon lacks in that area (even after the CPU buff)... Plus, the Domi can carry spare drones (unlike the Armageddon), has 5 free midslots for EW (compared to the Geddon's 3), and only has one less lowslot! Finally, the new Dominix setup can sustain cap for over 17 minutes, while the Geddon runs short at just 4 minutes and 13 seconds... I hope that'll put to rest the complaints about the Dominix! You have to remember that the Dominix can't do instant-damage as well as the Geddon however, as most of it's dps is from the drones. But yes, I agree the Domi is a bit strong.
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.11.11 17:29:00 - [229] gallente rocks... and this is without there 5 heavy drones ;) :P so it is around 300 dps more then the rest of the ships which will not use 5 heavy ^^ yup lame
SecondChance	Posted - 2007.11.11 17:51:00 - [230] Problem exists and it must be fixed. Some solutions (sry for my english) 1)Fixing lasers: a)+30% to damagemod -30% to rof for all lasers - same dps but more cap for active tanking b)simply -30% to cap usage for all lasers c)fixing damn_weapon_reload_jamming_bug (i wounder why it even exists? Is it too hard to fix 5 min reloading script?) and give option like "reload all weapon -ammo name-" to maximize 1 laser advantage - fast reload in combat. d)boosting anything in lasers so that they have at least more "+" than "-" in use 2)Fixing amarr ships directly: a)Role bonus for laser cap reduction +1 another bonus on any laser boat (difficult, but i think the best solution) b)+cap or(and) +caprechardge on ships(but it doesnt fix apoc with rails/arty etc) c)"Fixing" like Khanid mk2 (worst choise by me) - remowing lasers from the game compleatly (good solution in terms of dps/tanking - but... I (and think many amarrians) chose this race for nice looking ships and nice looking weapon. - we must have individuality! (but i think CCP disagree - by looking at their "amarr boosts") d)switching med slots on low slots (armor bonuses on shield bonuses) on all ships - giving ability io fit passive shild tank and use lasers, or EW warfare (Nightmare as example) (but caldary wont allow this anyway). e)increasing dronebay and brandwhich, so amarr ships will be on second place after gallente, but without drone bonuses - slightly increase dps and damage type\EW support ability (but gallentians wont allow this anyway either) f)boosting speed to allow speedtanking in some situation and create your own distance in combat (guess who dont allow this)

SecondChance	Posted - 2007.11.11 17:53:00 - [231] allmost forget - solution 3: Nefring all other to lvl of amarrians - looks like its what CCP doing now :)
Huroken Satans Delivery Boys Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.11 18:29:00 - [232] I like the idea of giving Explosive damage to Lasers under certain circumstances, but not crystals that cause it. The intense heat caused by lasers on a ships armour or hull could cause small explosions which add to the damage, lets face it Armor has good resist to EM but not necessarily thermal Example: All EXCELLENT hits to Armour or Hull add 20% explosive damage. All WRECKING hits add 40% explosive damage. Just an example. Either that or make the bonus to laser cap usage a base bonus for all Amarr ships and make their 2nd bonus a little more useful! So I have a choice. Large Energy Turret L5 or Large Projectile Turret L5. Even though I have Amarr BS L5 and Minmatar BS L4 I'm still tempted to go Projectile based on these stats. The Cap problems alone are enough to put me against Amarr right now. Already traded in my Zealot for a Vaga, Pilgrim for a Rapier and Absolution for a Sleipnir. - The voices in my head dont like you.
CrazyChinchilla The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.11 18:34:00 - [233] /signed
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.11 18:58:00 - [234] Originally by: Dark Flare Originally by: Im Dumb I think we have got the the point that we all understand that Amarr are broke. CCP knows that Amarr are broke. Now we need to start talking about HOW TO FIX AMARR. I think its an easy fix with 4 steps. 1) Amarr ships with a - cap usage for lasers need to be turned into either + cap or + cap recharge. (a bonus just to use your weps is a sign of underpowerdness) 2) Lasers need to use less PG and CPU to make it fitable inline with all the other weps in the game. (try fitting a rack of tachs on anything) 3) Lasers need to do more damage. (omni tank + high EM therm on base resist is biase agains amarr) 4) Lasers need a cap usage reduction. (weps should be able to run with similar run times as other cap usage weps) If CCP did those 4 things it would balace out Amarr with all the other races. If CCP did those 4 things it would make Amarr the best race by quite a way. Also, if they did number 3, think of what would happen to any Caldari PvPers. Nice that some one finaly responded to my post. Now if CCP did thos and over did it they would be over powered if they just did small changes they would not. The prob with amarr is not the ships. The ships are good ships. The prob is the wasted cap use bonouse that no other race has to deal with. And the HUGE amount of CAP and FITTINGs that they take, along with the lack of damage from omni tank and natural resist.
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.11.11 18:58:00 - [235] Edited by: mallina on 11/11/2007 19:01:09 Fely... You should know just as well as I how much Amarr are made of win. The day Amarr do more DPS than Gallente is the day Blasters arn't worth using - though they should definately be high up there nontheless (which they are) You can't just completely ignore the range advantage. It's more important than ever, in fact. I've lost count of how many fights I've won due to that very range advantage the EFT-warriors seem to think is worthless. Also, dual-LAR Geddons are so 2006 A decent Geddon with single LAR, HP Buffer (Plates+Trimarks), Dual Heatsink and Megapulse will, in most circumstances (not all fights start at 0km) , completely and utterly ****a lone Dominix. Amarr are a very situational race. In a plain slugfest at minimum range, they're average. Not quite as good as Gallente but margainlly better than Minmatar and definately capable of holding their own. They take a lot of SP to get over that drawback that is Cap Use on lasers, requiring Controlled Bursts and the Ship command skill both to at least 4 to really be useable at all. One important factor is their useability in Gangs. Instant damage projection makes ships like the Geddon extremely deadly in numbers when compared to the 'DPS Kings' that are the Gallente. I'd take 3 Geddons over 3 Dominix/Mega/Hyp anyday, simply because of the fact they don't have to MWD 20km to each target and are actually capable of shooting the Primary in nearly all circumstances. (If the Geddons have MWDs too, that Range Advantage suddenly comes ten times more useful) That's not to say that Amarr don't have problems, though: PG use on Beams is far too high at current and the Cap use could use some looking at. Certain ships like the Apocalypse and Omen are in dire need of improvement and the Pilgrim is in serious need of a Role, but saying that Amarr are inferior*? is a long stretch. ---
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:19:00 - [236] I'd be willing to bet bree that this thread never achieves gold stars, detailed and insightful as it is. The Amarr's problem, in my opinion, is that they have no role and no flexibility. They don't do the best damage, or have the best speed, or have the best snipers, or the best EWAR, or the best ship fitting, or the best tank. They aren't the best NPCers, or the best fleet snipers, or the best tacklers, or the best support ships, or the best roaming gangers, or the best cov ops. Add this to the fact that they have the least choice of fitting out of the 4 alliances (Gall = drones or hybrids, armour or shields; Min = projectiles or missiles, speed or tank; Cal = missiles or hybrids, tank or ECM) and it just makes them plain unappealing. Its not to say they're useless- there are still plenty of viable set ups and viable situations where Amarr can be useful. Its just at no point are they ever the best choice. And while that is true, there will be little reason for most people to think of training them. ------ Originally by: CCP Prism X There's no such thing as playing too much EvE! You all obviously need more accounts!
2k7	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:31:00 - [237] The best thing you can do is to tell new (older players will have the SP to make it work) players to not touch amarr (cyberknight engineer is nice though), as there's just no need to gimp yourself so badly in eve at the start. Caldari, Minnies and Gallente all have masses of viability, roles and flexibility and they all excel at something - amarr frigs suck, amarr cruisers bar the arby are beyond awful (twin plated maller is funny though) and their battle-cruisers are just sub par. Their battleships are also poor imho, as they all do the very same thing.
Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:37:00 - [238] Edited by: Scav Silver on 11/11/2007 19:45:07 Originally by: mallina ... One important factor is their useability in Gangs. Instant damage projection makes ships like the Geddon extremely deadly in numbers when compared to the 'DPS Kings' that are the Gallente. I'd take 3 Geddons over 3 Dominix/Mega/Hyp anyday, simply because of the fact they don't have to MWD 20km to each target and are actually capable of shooting the Primary in nearly all circumstances. (If the Geddons have MWDs too, that Range Advantage suddenly comes ten times more useful)... Wow.. If a geddon' has to mwd in battle, ya pretty much took 2/3 of his firing time (if naked of cap modules).. Your 3 Geddons, will be out of CAP in a blink.. A Mega can esily afford a web, plus it would do some dmg at 20km.. So one or two cycles (at most 3!!) would easily move in web range.. That can almost be made durin' lock time.. A Web on a Geddon is tricky, ya must sacrifice a third of your med slots.. Certaintly, ya can't build your main strategy around MWD on geddons.. Note that I didn't use Poc vs Mega or Domi vs Geddon.. Although, those are the Tier counterparts, Apoc is the alleged 'Cap' king and the Domi 'Drone' king.. Although, both Mega and Domi get DMG bonus towards thier guns, Poc doesn't.. Now, I move to point out the Gallente are pretty much Armor tankers.. Would ya mind to point out EM dmg?? á ----------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
adriaans Amarr Advanced Capital Ship Designs	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:37:00 - [239] Originally by: Patch86 I'd be willing to bet bree that this thread never achieves gold stars, detailed and insightful as it is. The Amarr's problem, in my opinion, is that they have no role and no flexibility. They don't do the best damage, or have the best speed, or have the best snipers, or the best EWAR, or the best ship fitting, or the best tank. They aren't the best NPCers, or the best fleet snipers, or the best tacklers, or the best support ships, or the best roaming gangers, or the best cov ops. Add this to the fact that they have the least choice of fitting out of the 4 alliances (Gall = drones or hybrids, armour or shields; Min = projectiles or missiles, speed or tank; Cal = missiles or hybrids, tank or ECM) and it just makes them plain unappealing. Its not to say they're useless- there are still plenty of viable set ups and viable situations where Amarr can be useful. Its just at no point are they ever the best choice. And while that is true, there will be little reason for most people to think of training them. this --sig-- Knowledge is power!
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:40:00 - [240] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn For all those still complaining about the Dominix setup, just to prove my case here, I'm going to change the guns on the Domi setup to Ions (needing a lot less powergrid, and therefore no reactor control units), and check the damage output: BLAH BLAH EFT STATS HERE The Dominix still out-damages the Armageddon and all other tier 1 Battleships. It should also be noted that the Domi setup has tonnes of free CPU to fit a tank and tackling gear, whereas the Geddon lacks in that area (even after the CPU buff)... Plus, the Domi can carry spare drones (unlike the Armageddon), has 5 free midslots for EW (compared to the Geddon's 3), and only has one less lowslot! Finally, the new Dominix setup can sustain cap for over 17 minutes, while the Geddon runs short at just 4 minutes and 13 seconds... I hope that'll put to rest the complaints about the Dominix! This completely detracts from your arguments about fittings. You've reduced the fitting reqs on the domi while still whining about your own maxxed out settings. You were comparing apples and oranges before, but now you're comparing apples and space cows. Neutrons and an RCU (or two) are sadly common place on the domi. That's just how it goes if you want to fit that much gank. Quote: The Dominix still out-damages the Armageddon and all other tier 1 Battleships. This is such an obtuse comment it's not even funny. It totally depends on the situation and things like oh, I don't know....range. With Ions and Void, it's an effective TOTAL range of just over 10km, unlike the geddon's 15km+10km falloff. You also magically neglected to put a MWD on the domi, which it would have just to get into range so that it could do damage at all. Assuming that the geddon pilot also put one on (hey why not), the neutron domi is now almost 3k short on PG, requiring TWO RCU's whereas the geddon has almost 2k PG still free. PLUS by default, the geddon has almost 600 more armor AND several more low slots with which to beef it up. It's faster, got a faster lock time AND has a smaller sig radius. Quote: Plus, the Domi can carry spare drones (unlike the Armageddon)... Please tell me you're kidding. That's what the domi does. It's a friggin' drone boat. Of COURSE it can carry spare drones unlike the armageddon. It can do it unlike almost any other tier 1 BS. Quote: ...has 5 free midslots for EW (compared to the Geddon's 3)... As pointed out earlier, most domi's are forced to sacrifice lows to RCU's and a mid to an MWD just to try to get into range. 3 med's are ample to fit the traditional basics (MWD, web, scram or MWD, web, cap injector) or is ample enough to fit a very healthy set of ewar tools. With the large amount of lows, you can feel free to toss in a CPR2 or two on top of a fantastic tank and gank setup. You've also left out the fact that during any kind of sustained engagement, not having to reload is a huge benefit that other racial ships don't have. True, you have different kinds of stamina issues, but once again it's just different, not better or worse. Quote: It should also be noted that the Domi setup has tonnes of free CPU to fit a tank and tackling gear, whereas the Geddon lacks in that area The geddon also has sufficient CPU (and better grid than the domi) to fit the remaining slots. About 240 CPU and over 3k PG vs 400 cpu and 1k PG with just guns and weapon upgrades fitted. Sorry, but it just doesn't add up, and as you can see, different ships have different difficulties and limitations. Different pros and cons. As it damn well should be. =P

Victoria Ehr Duchy of Amarsa	Posted - 2007.11.11 20:01:00 - [241] Is there a thread with analysis like this of Cruiser, Battlecruiser and Frigates too?? That would be great -------------------------------------------- Duchy of Amarsa The path to power is up!
NightHaunter Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.11 20:10:00 - [242] Edited by: NightHaunter on 11/11/2007 20:11:19 Why do people complain about armor damage of Amarr lasers? The last thing in an armor tankers mind is "hey, lemme add EM resist" unless they are mission running. A safe bet says that since EM damage is the least armor tanked damage type, it makes up for the high base resists that most ships have against said damage type. While fighting caldari, even with a T2 active EM hardener, are still lucky to get their EM resist as high as their others. Sure, gallente can do sick damage, but people know this and you have to be a fool to not have kinetic/thermal hardeners. Amarr crying needs to stop, I fight with amarr players and I fight against them and they are just as effective as the next race with their ships and weapons. Every race has their weakspots where they can not perform at peak effectiveness.
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.11 20:13:00 - [243] Ahem, that Dominix with 6xIonII and 3xMagStabII with Void and with all five OgreIIs has 1238DPS, and 400CPU and 1100grid left. What exactly do you intend on fitting for tank with that much grid left? You cant armor tank it, and if you fit shield tank you cant move, and run out of cap in 2 minutes.
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.11 22:07:00 - [244] Originally by: Dzajic Ahem, that Dominix with 6xIonII and 3xMagStabII with Void and with all five OgreIIs has 1238DPS, and 400CPU and 1100grid left. What exactly do you intend on fitting for tank with that much grid left? You cant armor tank it, and if you fit shield tank you cant move, and run out of cap in 2 minutes. Exactly, and that's precisely why you shouldn't be EFTing this stuff to begin with, but that's not what they want to hear. =P
Lorimer	Posted - 2007.11.11 22:59:00 - [245] /signed personally i would settle for a 4/4 turret/missile layout on the apoc
Illion Amarr BIG Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.11.11 23:11:00 - [246] I always thought we had a little more difficult, but hadn't appreciated how bad it was... /signed Ill.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.11.11 23:59:00 - [247] any true amarr pilot will tell you all our enemies are weak and our allies would be scared to break our bonds if any prominent leaders even considered ot ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.12 00:43:00 - [248] Originally by: daemorhedron Originally by: Dzajic Ahem, that Dominix with 6xIonII and 3xMagStabII with Void and with all five OgreIIs has 1238DPS, and 400CPU and 1100grid left. What exactly do you intend on fitting for tank with that much grid left? You cant armor tank it, and if you fit shield tank you cant move, and run out of cap in 2 minutes. Exactly, and that's precisely why you shouldn't be EFTing this stuff to begin with, but that's not what they want to hear. =P It's a DPS comparison analysis... Not a ship setup discussion... And my calculations take in to account reload times as well. The first Dominix setup was there to prove that (using the same modules cross-race) Amarr have inferior damage output to other races. The second Dominix setup (previous page) was added as everyone was whining that 6 Neutrons don't fit on a Domi. Dropping down to the middle of the large guns, the Domi still manages to out-DPS the Geddon. No ship in game should be able to fit tank and gank, so why are you arguing that I didn't fit both on the Domi? Everyone else, thanks for the input! Latest Video, Click Here!
d'Mortaigne Seven. Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.11.12 01:09:00 - [249] /signed. --------------- It's great being Amarr, aint it?
ArtemisEntreri TALON'S GRIP	Posted - 2007.11.12 02:11:00 - [250] Ok I read through every page, I skimmed through some replies that started with some sarcasm about CCP Jovians and other tinfoilery however. "Tank Analysis" The Dominix: Resistances: 74.5/73.1/80.5/80.5 EM is 1.4% off being lowest resist here The Typhoon: Resistances: 80.9/73.1/77.5/80.5 EM here is highest, but minmatar should get an advantage against amarr The Armageddon: Resistances: 76.9/77.1/78.6/81.4 EM lowest The Scorpion: Resistances: 75.7/81.8/72.7/80.6 EM is middle Calculator action: all EM resists combined: 308/4= 77 all EXP resists combined: 305.1/4= 76.275 all KIN resists combined: 309.3/4= 77.325 all THERM resists combined: 323/4= 80.75 I'd say that blasters are at a disadvantage here, not lasers These are your figures, I agree that omnitanks are quite horrible, but if you're gonna go back to the 3 hardener combo, that will make people's resists like this = (taken off base resists) 60/59.5/66.3/70.8 Which is pretty much balanced towards amarr (minmatar ships do less damage) The damage control and dual eanm is the best choice for 3 slots, but if you go for 4 slot resists then it shifts towards amarr again Btw have you noticed that your optimal with scorch and mega pulse is 45km and 10km falloff? And you can track cruisers orbitting you with the tracking boost, outside webbing range and if you're gonna compare within webbing range, everyone's webbed in there so I don't think the tracking becomes much of an issue there. Amarr are fine, they have a role and that role is MIDDLE RANGE, and they have great tanks, sure they have cap issues, but they don't have to mwd to get in range like gallente, and they don't have **** damage like minmatar, caldari have to shield tank with painters and even after the boost amarr will be better than caldari. If you're gonna use t2 ammo on everything, minmatar have reduced cap recharge with hail, and caldari also do with rage. Minmatar t1 ammo does naturally less damage than other race's t1 ammo. Mega Pulse vs Neutron Blaster cap usage with max skills on an apoc and megathron: 2.6 vs 2.4 This seems skewed since amarr are using their cap reduction bonus and still get reduced, furthermore a geddon gets a ROF bonus which skews it even more, this needs to be adjusted slightly. What you want is to make Amarr overpowered, they may need to be adjusted a bit, but you make it seem like being a middle ground is a bad thing. Like Mallina said, if you make lasers the highest dps weapons, noone will use blasters, they're already the best weapons if you stay a bit away from the opponent, and the tracking boost, just made them even better.

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.12 02:32:00 - [251] Edited by: Goumindong on 12/11/2007 02:34:15 Originally by: ArtemisEntreri Minmatar t1 ammo does naturally less damage than other race's t1 ammo. Not against tanked resists it doesnt. Against a Tri-hardened gallente tank, EMP does 7.5% more than multifrequency. Against Minmitar or Amarr armor tanks its even more. Going back to Omni tanks, RF EMP would do about the same RAW dps as Conflaglaration, more than AN MF M Against an omni tank Fusion does loads more dps.
Mindless Slave	Posted - 2007.11.12 03:13:00 - [252] Originally by: ArtemisEntreri Lol tri-hardner tanks Sure dear, everyone uses tri-hardners costing more fitting and cap for less effective HP
ArtemisEntreri TALON'S GRIP	Posted - 2007.11.12 03:19:00 - [253] Edited by: ArtemisEntreri on 12/11/2007 03:21:30 Originally by: Mindless Slave Originally by: ArtemisEntreri Lol tri-hardner tanks Sure dear, everyone uses tri-hardners costing more fitting and cap for less effective HP Did you even read it, alt troll? I was saying how tri-hardeners would be if the OP got w/e changes through that force people to use them
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.12 04:41:00 - [254] Whoever told you Amarr were the DPS race needs a slap to be honest. Lasers do awesome damage for their range, if you have a tackler with you Amarr ships are great for melting faces at a range where the higher damage weapons can't hit you and lower damage weapons simply won't do enough damage. DPS comparisons are rather worthless unless you factor in range, tracking, and resists. Other than that a good read, Amarr are indeed in need of some kind of change. The torp buff will actually be a stealth Amarr buff, putting more shield tankers into PvP. The recent trend towards making Minmatar t2 ships shield tankers helps also despite the racial resist. I don't think there's much massively wrong with Amarr bar the fact that EM is too highly resisted on most armor tanks and that the Apocalypse just plain sucks. I'm still of the opinion that the only realistic solution is to alter the base resists and rebalance the t2 racial resist bonuses. Anything else is likely to have unfortunate knock-on effects much like the EANM nerf that messed with several set-ups but in the end simply lead to people fitting a CPU implant. As for the cap stability on sniping set-ups the problem is similar to that of the Rokh, fleets want everyone to operate at the same range. Since many FC's refuse to be flexible on the matter despite the tactical benefits you could always turn the Geddon into a Megathron: The Meggedthron 5x Tachyon II (stop laughing in the back) 100MN MWD, 2x SB 3x HSII, 3x Tracking, 2x CPR 335 Damage for 5m13s I don't fly Amarr myself (so don't toast me for the set-up ) but one of the best tactics I've seen upon jumping into a hostile camp is shorter range ships clearing the bubble and warping to support ships that have positioned themselves for them. Getting that extra 60% or so in damage can really turn the tide. Of course when your the one waiting it's even more logical to switch to higher damage ammo, after all you can always change back if an enemy fleet comes in through another gate, yet most FC's would die sooner than have a battleship load anything other than t2 long range ammo. Perhaps the Apoc should be made into a fleet sniper (5x Turrets and a range bonus) to keep the 200km FC's happy. CCP if your reading that's a lame attempt at a joke btw.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.12 05:16:00 - [255] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf DPS comparisons are rather worthless unless you factor in range, tracking, and resists. Amarr lose even worse when you factor in range, tracking and resists. So a Armageddon has a range advantage on a Dominix? True but think about it. It is downright silly to put an MWD on an Armageddon and even running an AB is iffy for very long with the cap issues these ships have. But let's say the Arma has the Domi at 25km (max range for Pulse with T1 ammo) and the Arma is driving away from the Domi at top speed with the AB running. Domi gives chase using its MWD (practically a required item for the Domi). The Dominix will get within 10km (within range of its blasters that actually hit out to about 14km) in 30 seconds. If you do the math that is not enough to even drop the shields on the Domi. Now the Domi is within 10km using high damage guns versus the lowest damage, worst tracking, close range Pulse lasers. Domi pulls to under 5km now the Arma isn't even hitting at all (or barely).
Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.12 05:51:00 - [256] Quote: ...It is downright silly to put an MWD on an Armageddon... Win.. á ----------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.12 06:03:00 - [257] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Amarr lose even worse when you factor in range, tracking and resists. If you don't like high damage at medium range then your not going to like Amarr ships. Medium range has some issues, like requiring actual teamwork and a small degree of tactical thought beyond pointing your prow at the enemy and hitting the MWD or sitting 200km away shooting what your ordered to and waiting for your overview to light up. Obviously it's not for everyone. If you don't stop a blasterboat before it gets in your face your pretty much going to die. That's nothing to do with Amarr or lasers, it's to do with not planning to counter close-range set-ups. If a ship with a range of approximately spitting distance manages to bump noses with you then it deserves to tear you a new one. Interestingly I don't see close-combat pilots complaining about web-bonused ships such as the Hyena, Huginn, and Rapier that can pretty much nullify their ship with a single module from a position of complete safety. Nor the fact that a one day old noob in a tackling frig can pretty much put an end to their dastardly plans while remaining darned hard to hit even when webbed. It appears that all the whine has been used up. I'd also like to add that at 10-15km the Domi will be doing far less damage with it's guns than the average cruiser puts out. It's the drones you have to watch out for.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.12 07:04:00 - [258] Could anyone said that this statistic statistic devblog is a lie? If not - then how can you say that "there is no amarr problem and their fine" Facts: - 4th overall place(from 4 total) in eve - horrible t1 ship statistic 35% less ships than even Minmatar have (they on 3d place btw - no need to tell about caldary\gallente) - No amarr ships on 1-2 places in class statistic /signed P.S. Dear Flooder. If u never played ammar as main char - not as puppet alt (btw - why?) - plz be quiet. Or go crying in gallente\caldary\minmatar nefr\boost topics - no need to show your incompetence to us (we allready aware of it). P.P.S. Dear developer - we are just mortals and cant understand your godly plans. Plz hear amarr prayers.... say something!
UGWidowmaker Caldari Setenta Corp Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.11.12 08:32:00 - [259] very nice thread.- ccp please reply on this... the amarr need NERF! OMFG I am the widowmaker stay tuned.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.12 09:59:00 - [260] Originally by: Scav Silver Originally by: Kagura Nikon MAybe what should be solved then its making MED range fiughts more common!!! It would be much better for the game, we dont need ammar to be a copy of blaster gallente ships. THe problem with range on this game is the DAMM MWD. Everyone and their mother fit one, so range becomes a non issue. On ohtwer side no one fits an AB. REaaally think CCp should diminish HEAVILY the MWD speed boost. TO about 350% base on the T1 version. At least on the biggerversions. Maybe 450% for frigates 400 for 10MN and 350% for 100MN. THe path is making med range fights common, not making ammar forget its med range aspiration, and transform them on gallente clones! What else ya have in mind?? Kill Stargates?? Web Bubble?? Indeed.. It simply doesn't make any sense Gallante outgunnin' Amarr.. Gallante should use thier damn drones.. no they shoudl NOT GAllente have blaster shisp and those SHOUDL out dps EVERYONE in game. Their short range is the tradeoff. The issue is Medium range usability must be improved. NErfing MWD would solve a LOT of game issues, the excessive speed tnking, the non use for AB, the ammar uselles MED range pcapability, the easiness to avoid combat by MWDing to gates. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.12 14:29:00 - [261] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 12/11/2007 14:32:08 Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf If you don't stop a blasterboat before it gets in your face your pretty much going to die. That's nothing to do with Amarr or lasers, it's to do with not planning to counter close-range set-ups. If a ship with a range of approximately spitting distance manages to bump noses with you then it deserves to tear you a new one. True but Amarr are singularly incapable of dealing with this in any fashion. Minmatar can control range. Caldari missile ships are not rendered useless at close range. Gallente fighting Gallente...well...they're on the same page of course. All those races, to a greater or lesser extent, can toss in some EW as well to mix things up further. Amarr, by virtue of being horribly mid slot limited, have precious little to toss in the EW ring. Because they are so cap dependent use of an MWD is almost wholly a non-starter. Also due to extreme cap issues use of things like Neuts are likewise not a very good option...one that if used will almost certainly gimp themselves more than their target. So they need to be in groups? Fine...but when would you opt for, say, an Arma over a Domi with tacklers in your group? The Domi can tank better and deal better damage at the cost of some minor drive time to get in range. The Domi is more versatile in almost every respect and is FAR less hampered by EW applied against it. Amarr laserboats (which is most of their ship lineup) are one trick ponies. They are the most susceptible to EW and least capable of controlling range. A range I might add where most everyone else will either want to be farther away or up close. Long range ships want to keep you at one end of the spectrum, close range ships at the other, Amarr need to worry about BOTH sides (not too close, not too far) and are almost always the least capable of doing so (Caldari have a harder time but again their weapons are not affected by range so care less about that. Many like to say Amarr ships are fine and on paper, in their ideal range, they are IF things stay like that but of course they never do leaving Amarr in the dust.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.12 14:42:00 - [262] Originally by: PeacefullNub Could anyone said that this statistic statistic devblog is a lie? If not - then how can you say that "there is no amarr problem and their fine" Facts: - 4th overall place(from 4 total) in eve - horrible t1 ship statistic 35% less ships than even Minmatar have (they on 3d place btw - no need to tell about caldary\gallente) - No amarr ships on 1-2 places in class statistic /signed P.S. Dear Flooder. If u never played ammar as main char - not as puppet alt (btw - why?) - plz be quiet. Or go crying in gallente\caldary\minmatar nefr\boost topics - no need to show your incompetence to us (we allready aware of it). P.P.S. Dear developer - we are just mortals and cant understand your godly plans. Plz hear amarr prayers.... say something! I wish people would stop referring to such statistics. From these you can imply that Caldari currently have the best t1 and t2 ships in the game and that Gallete have the best capitals by a huge margin. Frankly it's laughable. Statistically the shuttle is probably one of the most used ships in game, that does not make it teh uber in PvP. And if you stop people who don't fly a ship from commenting on it then your going to end up with a very biased discussion. I'm willing to accept I might have some misconceptions about Amarr but from my experience with them in-game and out I see little to re-educate me on the matter bar the whines of people who don't happen to like the Amarr combat philosophy. It's akin to the Caldari who complain about being long-range, shield tankers. I'm not saying there is nothing wrong with Amarr, but I think people are blowing the problems they do have completely out of proportion which has lead to a general consensus that Amarr are awful and thus more chest beating.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.12 15:00:00 - [263] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Doesn't like medium range. Have you ever seen a blasterboat trying to shoot a tackling frig when tracking disrupted? A webbed Amarr ship is still in a position to apply it's DPS in most engagements this is a big advantage, anyone beyond their range isn't going to be applying relevant damage to them without overwhelming force. The speed of the Amarr battleships therefore is not much of an issue, were they faster than Minmatar or Gallente then these races would never stand a chance against them. Another point, and one that personally annoys the hell out of me, is that the game is balanced around mixed fleets. Each race does not have the best counter to each tactic. Though in this case Amarr have just as many good counters to close-range as anyone else bar Minmatar, t1 frigs, interceptors, and the ability to apply far greater damage from beyond their range. If I were you I'd be more worried about the new torpedoes that make other close/medium range weapon systems near redundant. They will out-damage you at medium and close range, while having no cap-use and choice of damage type.
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.11.12 15:06:00 - [264] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf If you don't like high damage at medium range then your not going to like Amarr ships. Medium range has some issues, like requiring actual teamwork and a small degree of tactical thought beyond pointing your prow at the enemy and hitting the MWD or sitting 200km away shooting what your ordered to and waiting for your overview to light up. Obviously it's not for everyone. So what you are saying is that Amarr are "high Damage" (you mean high EM damage) for this Theoretical midrange stuff. Yet you fail to mention that anyone who MWD's from this theoretical range will either have the speed to outmanouver Amarr, or have a omnitank, or both. Hate to break it, but eve is either 160-170km Snipers, or Scrambler Range for combat. Amarr suck at both. Heck - you need 3-4 Tracking mods to hit 170km in falloff! Add in 2-3 Fitting mods then wonder why you even bother wasting time with this so called Turret race. Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf I'd also like to add that at 10-15km the Domi will be doing far less damage with it's guns than the average cruiser puts out. It's the drones you have to watch out for. I like conditional statements such as the one above to misinterpret and guide the reader in the wrong path. The Abaddon does 0 DPS after a couple of minutes, therefore even a Noobship can do more DPS with its guns than a Abaddon. Of course, I am telling the truth, but it is conditional upon the Abaddon running out of cap after a couple of minutes. Nothing is wrong with this theoretical waffle, but like I said, your statement is also conditional. In REAL WORLD scenario, with EQUALLY skilled pilots, The Domi would outclass the Amarr BS's easaly. Amarr have no place in EVE PVP of today, and need a rethink and/or redesign. End of story. This theoretical Midrange stuff will only happen once we start getting 40-50km scramblers at a cost effective price + fitting to the general public. --SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.12 15:58:00 - [265] Originally by: bloomich So what you are saying is that Amarr are "high Damage" (you mean high EM damage) for this Theoretical midrange stuff. Yet you fail to mention that anyone who MWD's from this theoretical range will either have the speed to outmanouver Amarr, or have a omnitank, or both. I believe I've pointed out that the first and only thing you need to counter on a close-range ship is it's speed and also that EM resists are a problem. Midrange is also not theoretical, it is merely underused. Perhaps boosting it's viability would make it more popular but to be honest there is little problem with it besides the fact that you have to apply a little more brainpower. I've been part of decimating med-range groups, the only issue is ensuring you have enough tacklers for the number of enemies you aim to deal with and space yourselves appropriately to cover each other when possible. Originally by: bloomich Hate to break it, but eve is either 160-170km Snipers, or Scrambler Range for combat. Amarr suck at both. Heck - you need 3-4 Tracking mods to hit 170km in falloff! Add in 2-3 Fitting mods then wonder why you even bother wasting time with this so called Turret race. Again, it is not the ships fault when you try to force them into another races role or range. Originally by: bloomich The Abaddon does 0 DPS after a couple of minutes, therefore even a Noobship can do more DPS with its guns than a Abaddon. It appears that you are as they say "doing it wrong." I hasten to add I don't fly Abaddons, but I've killed a few in my time. I seem to come across this a lot: 8x Mega Pulse 1x Heavy Cap Booster, 100mn MWD, Scram, Web 2x 1600mm Plate, 2x EANM, DC, 2x Heat Sink 3x Trimark That's Plate Mega Damage from 15km with almost 50k more normalized HP, it can happily fit an MWD and in fact has greater cap stability than the Mega. It can also swap out crystals to go from over 1kdps at 15km to 839 at 45km. This ship excels at both close and medium range, though like the Mega certain med-slot fittings will require a CPU implant. Even with the issues with EM damage this set-up melts close-range battleship even at their own ranges and when used correctly is one of the most dangerous ships I have ever faced.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.12 17:05:00 - [266] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Doesn't like medium range. Have you ever seen a blasterboat trying to shoot a tackling frig when tracking disrupted? If you are going to do this to one ship do it to all ships for comparison. Pulse lasers are the worst tracking of all close range weapons as well as the lowest DPS. They trade range for the other two. However, that means it has a much worse time shooting a tackling frig at close range than a blasterboat or autocannon boat. And even if it does hit it will hit for less. Now consider that Gallente can fall back on drones more easily (bonuses to drones plus bigger drones bays to carry a variety of drones). Caldari can hit with missiles as easily up close as at range (no tracking issues, cannot be tracking disrupted). Minmatar often have split weapon systems so can likely toss some missiles as well. Amarr? You're just fuxxored across the board. The ship is ONLY effective at its very narrow ideal ranges. Get over or under their weapons and there is little to be done. Quote: Another point, and one that personally annoys the hell out of me, is that the game is balanced around mixed fleets. Each race does not have the best counter to each tactic. Though in this case Amarr have just as many good counters to close-range as anyone else bar Minmatar, t1 frigs, interceptors, and the ability to apply far greater damage from beyond their range. Mixed fleets are all well and good but in any case you are better off with some other battleship than an Amarr battleship in your fleet. A Domi is far more versatile than a Geddon. It hits at least as hard, tanks better, has options with its drones, can apply some Ewar. Scorp is not a damage dealer but by itself can swing a battle in your favor...there is a reason they are often primaried first in a battle. Typhoon is a wild card but as a nanophoon, even today, it can be far more scary to face than a Geddon. No need to even compare the Apoc as it is bar none the worst battleship out there. Abaddon can be nice but a Rokh makes a far better sniper and a Hyperion just owns (better tank, more gank). Dunno much about the Maelstrom but it seems popular and well liked. Quote: If I were you I'd be more worried about the new torpedoes that make other close/medium range weapon systems near redundant. They will out-damage you at medium and close range, while having no cap-use and choice of damage type. It has occurred to me. I do not begrudge the change as torps could use some love but for all the massive problems Amarr face and Caldari missile ships already THE most flown ships in EVE it hardly seemed people were thinking how gimp Caldari are without a torp change.
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.11.12 17:12:00 - [267] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: bloomich I hasten to add I don't fly Abaddons, but I've killed a few in my time. I seem to come across this a lot: 8x Mega Pulse 1x Heavy Cap Booster, 100mn MWD, Scram, Web 2x 1600mm Plate, 2x EANM, DC, 2x Heat Sink 3x Trimark That's Plate Mega Damage from 15km with almost 50k more normalized HP, it can happily fit an MWD and in fact has greater cap stability than the Mega. It can also swap out crystals to go from over 1kdps at 15km to 839 at 45km. This ship excels at both close and medium range, though like the Mega certain med-slot fittings will require a CPU implant. Even with the issues with EM damage this set-up melts close-range battleship even at their own ranges and when used correctly is one of the most dangerous ships I have ever faced. A Abaddon setup as you mentioned, with a 5% CPU implant (perhaps 3% or less if you use faction/named gear), ever single skill to lvl5 and with conflag and 5 Hamerhead II's does 985 DPS. Factor in REAL dps after resistances. Also factore in the almost non-existant tracking. Also factor in that at scrambler range of 24k, almost every shot will miss. But let us say that somehow the battle takes place at 15km. The plates makes the Abaddon too slow to dictate range in most battles, so let us say that enemy is orbiting you at 15km. Even a orbiting bs at 15km can evade almost all the shots anyway due to crap tracking. Add in EANMS's and the effective real DPS is what?. --SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that.
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.12 17:19:00 - [268] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf It appears that you are as they say "doing it wrong." I hasten to add I don't fly Abaddons, but I've killed a few in my time. I seem to come across this a lot: 8x Mega Pulse 1x Heavy Cap Booster, 100mn MWD, Scram, Web 2x 1600mm Plate, 2x EANM, DC, 2x Heat Sink 3x Trimark That's Plate Mega Damage from 15km with almost 50k more normalized HP, it can happily fit an MWD and in fact has greater cap stability than the Mega. It can also swap out crystals to go from over 1kdps at 15km to 839 at 45km. This ship excels at both close and medium range, though like the Mega certain med-slot fittings will require a CPU implant. Even with the issues with EM damage this set-up melts close-range battleship even at their own ranges and when used correctly is one of the most dangerous ships I have ever faced. Ok so using that very set up you just posted. So here is the fit in EFT and the stats 8x mega II 100mn MWD, II Faint warp pro, Fleeting prop, Heavy 'brave, cap booster LAR II, 2x N-type EANM, 2x 1600MM Tung plate, 2x Heat sink If you dont use those named mods the MWD wont fit 700 CPU right there with perfect skills on EFT. Its a nice set up too. Here is the prob tho with Conflagration ammo LAR and MWD running you have 58 sec of cap time. with no MWD you have 2.17 sec. So if you use your MWD your cap dead fast. If you fit a AB instead you have 25 more CPU to fit with and your cap lasts for 2.34 sec not so bad but you only go 290m/s. And cut those cap times in half if your cap booster has run out of charges If you use MultiFreq and not T2 you get like 30% more cap but drop 100+ DPS The probs with Amarr are CAP, and a lil bit of fitting with beams and a lil damage. If CCP did these 4 things it would balace out Amarr with all the other races. 1) Amarr ships with a - cap usage for lasers need to be turned into either + cap or + cap recharge. (a bonus just to use your weps is a sign of underpowerdness) 2) Lasers need to use less PG and CPU to make it fitable inline with all the other weps in the game. (try fitting a rack of tachs on anything) 3) Lasers need to do more damage. (omni tank + high EM therm on base resist is biase agains amarr) 4) Lasers need a cap usage reduction. (weps should be able to run with similar run times as other cap usage weps) They dont need to make big radical game changes that will effect all races just small tweeks to Amarr.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.12 17:43:00 - [269] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf I hasten to add I don't fly Abaddons, but I've killed a few in my time. I seem to come across this a lot: 8x Mega Pulse 1x Heavy Cap Booster, 100mn MWD, Scram, Web 2x 1600mm Plate, 2x EANM, DC, 2x Heat Sink 3x Trimark I compared your fit above to a Mega with: 7 x Neutron Cannon-II 1 x Heavy cap booster, 100mn MWD, Scram, Web 2 x 1600mm Plate, 1x EANM, 1x Damage Control, 2x Mag Stabs 3 x Trimark (not sure that is the best choice here but keeping it as close to your Abaddon fit as possible) Both your Abaddon and this Mega are a bit heavy on the CPU so would require an implant or named mods but definitely doable. That Mega is 187 m/s faster and has 28,594 armor compared to the Abaddon's 32,128 (3,534 difference). The Mega will be hitting Kinetic/Thermal resists on the Abaddon of 71.9/75.7. The Abaddon will be hitting EM/Thermal resists on the Mega of 80/67.6...pretty close to a wash. But the Mega will be hitting for 1,021 DPS to the Abaddon's 898. Also, with everything running, the Abaddon caps out 16 seconds sooner than the Mega...not a lot but it is less cap stable than the Mega. If we assume the Abaddon starts ideally at 25km and the Mega wants to get into 10km range (it can actually hit out to 17.5km) it will take 80 seconds. The Abaddon will absolutely cap out in 1 minute doing this so needs to eat boosters which honestly cannot keep up either under that load. But let's say it can...the Mega will not be killed in that timeframe...roughly estimate it at about into 1/3 armor when it gets nose-to-nose with the Abaddon. Bye-bye Abaddon. And, FWIW, that is pitting the Gallente Tier-2 ship versus the Amarr Tier-3 ship. Do you want us to try and see how a Hyperion stacks against it?
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.12 17:53:00 - [270] Originally by: bloomich A Abaddon setup as you mentioned, with a 5% CPU implant (perhaps 3% or less if you use faction/named gear), ever single skill to lvl5 and with conflag and 5 Hamerhead II's does 985 DPS. Factor in REAL dps after resistances. Also factore in the almost non-existant tracking. Also factor in that at scrambler range of 24k, almost every shot will miss. But let us say that somehow the battle takes place at 15km. The plates makes the Abaddon too slow to dictate range in most battles, so let us say that enemy is orbiting you at 15km. Even a orbiting bs at 15km can evade almost all the shots anyway due to crap tracking. Add in EANMS's and the effective real DPS is what?. No a setup that runs with a 1% CPU implant if you fit a named web and scram where the Mega requires a 3%. Also your not using the optimal DPS drone combo and instead opting for a full wing of hammerheads. Do you even play EVE? The Plate Mega fits twin plates as well. Even at the Megathrons optimal range the Abaddon will rip it apart and have a couple dozen thousand HP left. And as for tracking... stop flying solo for the love of god. When I fit a battleship that operates beyond 8km I always assume the need for and presence of a tackling gang-mate. Even if you foolishly chose not to bring a tackler exactly what kind of damage is this orbiting battleship doing to you and why have you not MWD'd into web range or MWD'd out of scramble range yourself? I mentioned the resistances repeatedly read before you reply. However the extra 50k of HP more than makes up for it, you will outlast any other close-range battleship regardless of the difference in damage after resists. The main thing wrong with your Abaddon is it's pilot. Originally by: Im Dumb Here is the prob tho with Conflagration ammo LAR and MWD running you have 58 sec of cap time. with no MWD you have 2.17 sec. So if you use your MWD your cap dead fast. That's the same reason you don't use LARII's on a Megathron, and in fact you can't fit LAR's with a Neutron set-up. In honesty I can't see why one would want to fit an active rep tank over a passive one, the armor rep is going to take longer than the battle will last to cover the additional hitpoints and will be eating cap for the duration. Originally by: Im Dumb The probs with Amarr are CAP, and a lil bit of fitting with beams and a lil damage. I'm not seeing any problem with cap, damage, or fitting on the plated abaddon. Originally by: Im Dumb They dont need to make big radical game changes that will effect all races just small tweeks to Amarr. Changing the base EM resistance isn't what I would call a radical change. But I agree that several Amarr ships seem in need of some small tweaks.

Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:03:00 - [271] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Also, with everything running, the Abaddon caps out 16 seconds sooner than the Mega...not a lot but it is less cap stable than the Mega. Yeah, I messed up had the wrong cap boosters loaded on the Mega. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h That Mega is 187 m/s faster and has 28,594 armor compared to the Abaddon's 32,128 (3,534 difference). Try normalized hit-points, that resist bonus is the Abaddons true strength. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h If we assume the Abaddon starts ideally at 25km and the Mega wants to get into 10km range (it can actually hit out to 17.5km) it will take 80 seconds. The Abaddon will absolutely cap out in 1 minute doing this. Don't run. If he wants to come play at his optimal let him, you'll still outlast him. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h And, FWIW, that is pitting the Gallente Tier-2 ship versus the Amarr Tier-3 ship. Do you want us to try and see how a Hyperion stacks against it? The Hyperion is generally considered a steaming bag of fail by blasterboat fans. I quite like it in gangs as the tank is nice in enemy territory but the damage is generally pathetic compared to the Mega. It takes the Hyperion around 98 seconds to make up the difference between it's hp and the abaddons with twin reps, the fight will probably be over by then. In addition in such a set-up it'll be dealing only around 765 dps. Set-ups available on request as I'm filling this thread with stuffs already.
Linnth	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:04:00 - [272] All these nerf's that CCP are throwing at the game is really the Amarr Oomph. They don't want to boost Amarr, not matter the cost, even if it requires them nerfing the entire universe! NEWSFLASH: CCP remove Amarr and lasers from the game. All pilots with any AMARR skillpoints will be deleted on 1st of December(They might as well since CCP nerfed them into extinction
Cygnus Zhada Amarr The Wild Hunt	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:05:00 - [273] @ Daelin Blackleaf You keep saying that Amarr is midrange (which yes, it's set up to be) and that at mid range it works out. The thing is, Mid range doesn't happen, that's not what EVE pans out to be. It's either full in your face, or at 100+km. I know this, YOU know this, everyone know this. So instead of defending your Gallente to the death by trying to elude from the actual problem, just agree to the fact that the Amarr supposed tactics simply don't work well in EVE PVP at this point. Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:07:00 - [274] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Im Dumb The probs with Amarr are CAP, and a lil bit of fitting with beams and a lil damage. I'm not seeing any problem with cap, damage, or fitting on the plated abaddon. Fitting with pulse isnt so much of an issue as is fitting tachs. Also the abaddon is a teir 3 BS and has the most PG CPU of the Amarr BS. It also has the same hard points as the apoc and only one more then the gedon. So abadon is easy to fit with pulse compared to the other 2 BS and all Amarr BS are hard to fit tachs. Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Im Dumb They dont need to make big radical game changes that will effect all races just small tweeks to Amarr. Changing the base EM resistance isn't what I would call a radical change. But I agree that several Amarr ships seem in need of some small tweaks. The prob with changing base resist on all ships is it will mess up the balance of damage in the game. Dropping EM resist on all ships will also boost the damage on Minmatar (My Mini char would love this tho) It could also mess with the EM damage balance with missles and drones Also we are comparing a Teir 3 BS to a Teir 2. A better comparison would be apoc to mega.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:12:00 - [275] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Imperator Jora'h That Mega is 187 m/s faster and has 28,594 armor compared to the Abaddon's 32,128 (3,534 difference). Try normalized hit-points, that resist bonus is the Abaddons true strength. I noted the relevant resistances on both ships for the ammo they are firing. Between the Abaddon and the Mega the differences in resistances come very close to equaling out. If anything I'd say the Mega gets a bit of an advantage with that 80% EM resist which is what laser damage is skewed towards.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:24:00 - [276] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 12/11/2007 15:06:57 [EDIT: Only 16% of characters are Amarr, this statistic may go some way to explaining the others.] You showed best proof of a problem existence and you still refuse to understand it (or just dont whant to lose?). If 'amarr problem' is so small - why only 16% of all trying to play amarr from beginning (and how many of them learned now another race?) Doesnt realy mather how many amarr characters in eve. But why amarr ship is last that ppls use both in pve and in pvp? Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 12/11/2007 15:06:57 A webbed Amarr ship is still in a position to apply it's DPS in most engagements this is a big advantage You realy belive that laser boat have so many capasitor so it can dps and tank in one time? Then you never played amarr. Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 12/11/2007 15:06:57 The speed of the Amarr battleships therefore is not much of an issue Realy? And middle range combat without speed to create this range? Wait - we possibly can have speed advantage vs calday! WTF - they have missiles Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 12/11/2007 15:06:57 Each race does not have the best counter to each tactic. Though in this case Amarr have just as many good counters to close-range as anyone else Wake up! Amarrs have no tactic and counter tactic. Becouse of that this tread (and many others) exists. (exept "middle range combat without speed for it, cap for tank and for turrets to kill any ship that have lower speed than we") Our tactic is "pray for miracle" (btw it helps sometimes) Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 12/11/2007 15:06:57 I hasten to add I don't fly Abaddons, but I've killed a few in my time. I seem to come across this a lot: 8x Mega Pulse1x Heavy Cap Booster, 100mn MWD, Scram, Web, 2x 1600mm Plate, 2x EANM, DC, 2x Heat Sink 3x Trimark Funny - passive armour tank. But abaddon FORCED to use it anyway .Guess why...
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:33:00 - [277] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 12/11/2007 18:33:19 Originally by: Cygnus Zhada just agree to the fact that the Amarr supposed tactics simply don't work well in EVE PVP at this point. I define medium range, for battleships, as being from 10.1km to fleet range. I think Amarr ships do rather well at those ranges. As for the 20-50km bracket, well yes, if you want to be nigh invulnerable against your opponent you'll have to work for it. Originally by: Im Dumb So abadon is easy to fit with pulse compared to the other 2 BS and all Amarr BS are hard to fit tachs. Agreed, the fitting seems rather tight for Tachs, CCP didn't balance the ships for 200km fleet ranges so I imagine it's supposed to be a balance against the superior damage. Originally by: Im Dumb The prob with changing base resist on all ships is it will mess up the balance of damage in the game. Dropping EM resist on all ships will also boost the damage on Minmatar (My Mini char would love this tho) It could also mess with the EM damage balance with missles and drones The damage isn't balanced, thats the problem. Racial resists stack in interesting ways giving some Matari ships obscene base EM resists. So changing the resists should help solve these kind of issues (and not just for EM) as for missiles and drones, not really a problem so long as EM remains the strongest armor resist. EM drones suck and need a major boost while Im mentioning them. Originally by: Im Dumb Also we are comparing a Teir 3 BS to a Teir 2. A better comparison would be apoc to mega. I already said the Apoc is pretty darn awful. However comparing the Hype and Abaddon would in my opinion weigh the balance far more in the Abaddons favor as the Hyperion is pretty miserable when it comes to considering a single engagement. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I noted the relevant resistances on both ships for the ammo they are firing. Between the Abaddon and the Mega the differences in resistances come very close to equaling out. If anything I'd say the Mega gets a bit of an advantage with that 80% EM resist which is what laser damage is skewed towards. EDIT: (Damage details) Yes, but they're not only going to be fighting each other are they? They will be encountering other ships with a wide spread of damage types. As for damage, yes, when including EM resists (how many times sigh) the Mega does do more damage than the Abaddon but the Mega will still run out of HP first. PeacefullNub; I'm sorry but I really can't be bothered to discuss this with someone who unlike these other fine forum users can't form a coherent argument.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:36:00 - [278] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf As for damage, yes, when including EM resists (how many times sigh) the Mega does do more damage than the Abaddon but the Mega will still run out of HP first. I disagree. In our hypothetical setups the Abaddon gets 80 seconds or so of "free" shots on the Megathron. This is not enough to come close to killing it. Once the Mega is in under 10km the Abaddon won't be hitting well at all while the Mega comes in to its own.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:43:00 - [279] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf As for damage, yes, when including EM resists (how many times sigh) the Mega does do more damage than the Abaddon but the Mega will still run out of HP first. I disagree. In our hypothetical setups the Abaddon gets 80 seconds or so of "free" shots on the Megathron. This is not enough to come close to killing it. Once the Mega is in under 10km the Abaddon won't be hitting well at all while the Mega comes in to its own. Tracking really won't be an issue with both ships webbed and the tendancy of balsterboat pilots not to move at all once in range with the possible exception of leaving approach going. We're also not talking hypothetically, I've fought Abaddons with those set-ups in my Mega, though my skills aren't all at five I do have a respectable level of combat SP. Unless the Abaddon pilots messes up (by trying to MWD away), or doesn't fit a web I tend to have a very difficult time with them one on one.
Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.12 19:08:00 - [280] Well, after close to 300 posts in this thread, not a single Dev has said anythin'.. As ya can easily figure, they know the problem but they ain't willin' even to touch Amarr.. Except, for the quarterly "Nerf 'em a bit more".. á ----------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-

Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.12 19:27:00 - [281] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 12/11/2007 19:35:15 Originally by: Scav Silver Well, after close to 300 posts in this thread, not a single Dev has said anythin'.. As ya can easily figure, they know the problem but they ain't willin' even to touch Amarr.. Except, for the quarterly "Nerf 'em a bit more".. Half the people in this thread are clowns. No Dev is going to reply to this one if he values his job. I am someone who, first hand, uses amarr in all situations, be it close range, this imaginary mid range (which I consider to be 25km, because of my faction scrambler on my curse) as well as sniper range. Anyone can go and check my killboard stats and see my stats, and they can see that I know first hand how to fly Amarr. And my verdect is simple. They are crap unless you have a full rack of lvl5 skills. Then they become sub-par. With faction equipment you become competitive, and with officer gear then you can defeat puny Gallente t2 fitted ships. I have given up core-x fitting Amarr BS's until CCP fix's lag, and Dread Guristas Fitted Rokhs are more effective and cost half as much. Amarr BS are broken due to broken modules and hence, due to lack of slots. E.G 3-4 Tracking mods to be competitive with other races snipers. 2-3 Fitting mods to have ennough guns + setup to be competitive to other races. CCP, if you are you are bothering to even read this thread, reduce the number of highslots Amarr BS's have, and give them extra Mids. Adjust Ship bonus's so that they they do the same damage. This means less guns for same damage which means less fitting, less cap consumption (due to less guns), and gives Amarr flexibility and is the Lazy mans fix to the Amarr problem. Not perfect but at least a start. Again, CCP if you are bothering to read this, listen to people about making Amarr Competitive. Not overpowered, not crap but actually Compatitive. Amarr is not Competitive currently, and this has to change. -- Billion Isk Mission
Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.12 19:59:00 - [282] Edited by: Scav Silver on 12/11/2007 20:00:10 Originally by: Lord WarATron ... ...E.G 3-4 Tracking mods to be competitive with other races snipers. 2-3 Fitting mods to have ennough guns + setup to be competitive to other races. CCP, if you are you are bothering to even read this thread, reduce the number of highslots Amarr BS's have, and give them extra Mids. Adjust Ship bonus's so that they they do the same damage. This means less guns for same damage which means less fitting, less cap consumption (due to less guns), and gives Amarr flexibility and is the Lazy mans fix to the Amarr problem. Not perfect but at least a start. ... Yeah, pretty much.. Geddon, for example, 3-4 turret slots, 1-2 med slots, w/ Laser Dmg bonus 100%.. If CPP really wants to make Amarr the 'CAP' race, 2-3 extra High Slots w/ more Cap per minute recharge.. á ----------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
Sofring Eternus Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.12 20:51:00 - [283] Originally by: Scav Silver Edited by: Scav Silver on 12/11/2007 20:00:10 Originally by: Lord WarATron ... ...E.G 3-4 Tracking mods to be competitive with other races snipers. 2-3 Fitting mods to have ennough guns + setup to be competitive to other races. CCP, if you are you are bothering to even read this thread, reduce the number of highslots Amarr BS's have, and give them extra Mids. Adjust Ship bonus's so that they they do the same damage. This means less guns for same damage which means less fitting, less cap consumption (due to less guns), and gives Amarr flexibility and is the Lazy mans fix to the Amarr problem. Not perfect but at least a start. ... Yeah, pretty much.. Geddon, for example, 3-4 turret slots, 1-2 med slots, w/ Laser Dmg bonus 100%.. If CPP really wants to make Amarr the 'CAP' race, 2-3 extra High Slots w/ more Cap per minute recharge.. Amarr ships are much closer to balanced then alot of people seem to think. The biggest problems are: 1) Spare High Slots: These were valuable prior to the NOS nerf. Now they are, pardon the pun, out of reach. Much like mom or dad putting the cookie jar on the top shelf where you cant get it. FIX: CCP has placed a delicous slot up high when we would really like it either at MID for utility, or at LOW for fitting stronger gank/tank. 2) Energy weapons: The Pulse lasors have sacrificed too many stats for their extra range. The Beams have sacrificed too much for their damage and tracking. FIX: rebuild energy weapons stats using base hybrid stats as follows. Then the 10% cap use in effect becomes 10% optimal / 10% tracking depending on what guns you fit. For Pulse: Pulse Activation = 2x Blaster Activation Pulse RoF = Blaster RoF Pulse Dmg Mod = Blaster Dmg Mod (please note, Gallente will still retain their damage flavor as more Gallente ships have 5% damage than Amarr ships) Pulse Optimal = 2x Blaster Optimal (balances out the 2x Activation) Pulse Falloff = Blaster Falloff (if desired, to keep Lasers with low falloff, divide Laser falloff by 2, and then make Pulse Optimal = 3x Blaster Optimal) Pulse Tracking = Blaster Tracking (please keep it like this!!) For Beams: Beam Activation = 2x Rails Activation Beam RoF = Rails RoF Beam Optimal = Rails Optimal Beam Falloff = Rails Falloff (again, if desired to keep Lasers with low falloff, divide Laser falloff by 2, then make Beam Tracking = Rail Tracking x3) Beam Tracking = 2x Rails Tracking (to balance out the activation costs) But what about the the fittings? This is the easiest bit, Amarr ships generally have 88% of the CPU of the Gallente and around 121% of the powergrid. So apply the same modifiers to the turret fitting requirements. This will increase the PG usage of Pulse by a very small amount, but significantly reduce Beam PG usage. CPU usage of Pulse will stay the same, but go up for Beams by a very small amount. **Also of note: Yes, the damage that Beams do will be lowered, specifically the damage that Tachs do, however the much improved cap use and fitting reqs I believe balance it out. --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.12 21:58:00 - [284] Some of you are coming up with very complicated ideas to fix Amarr. Some of you are either ignorant to the Amarr problem or you wanna keep Amarr down. If your ignorant I would say borrow a friends Amarr char and go pvp with it if that wasnt agains the EULA. If you just wanna keep Amarr down thats kinda messed up. Amarr does not have huge hard to fix problems they are easy to fix problems One prob is they get gipped on that cap use for lassers bonouse on many Amarr ships. If CCP got rid of that and put in a real bonouse, it would help balance them. I would like either a cap bonouse or a cap recharge bonouse. That would make them the cap race, as they would have more cap then the rest. Because of the omni tank and high base resist on EM its hard for Amarr to do there true damage so a damage bonouse would help balance but I think we could go without it if they balance the rest. This would also help Amarr when it came to PVE. Trying to fit lassers onto Amarr ships is much to hard. The lasers PG and CPU needs to be looked at and ajusted to make them inline with the other races, beams in particular are extreamly hard. Lasers use way to much cap and dont have any kinda fire time compared to other races. A drop in cap use on lasers would bring Amarr inline with firing time of other cap use weps. If those lil changes were made it would make amarr balanced. There would finaly be pros to Amarr but still plenty of cons, like lack of mid slots for fitting EW. Poor tracking on pulse weps, and poor range on beams. Lack of damage versitility, poor speed, and Im sure other cons that I cant think of. CCP doesnt need to remake the race or game just to fix Amarr, just change a few lil things.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:00:00 - [285] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 12/11/2007 23:05:56 Originally by: Im Dumb Some of you are coming up with very complicated ideas to fix Amarr. Some of you are either ignorant to the Amarr problem or you wanna keep Amarr down. If your ignorant I would say borrow a friends Amarr char and go pvp with it if that wasnt agains the EULA. If you just wanna keep Amarr down thats kinda messed up. Amarr does not have huge hard to fix problems they are easy to fix problems I think this is wrong. I am rather appalled at CCP Zulupark's assessment that they "know" the problem and it is merely related to Omni tanks. Amarr suffer from an identity problem. Every other race has a niche. Caldari are the missile and EW race. Gallente are the knife fighters (close range ownage) and drones. Minmatar are the speed race and Swiss Army knife of EVE (they kinda do it all...not supreme in one area but eminently flexible). Amarr are....? Supposedly Amarr are a tanking race. Fine...except while they have good tanks they are not actually superior there...many other ships beat them here and maintain better gank. And as has been noted a tank is crap if that is all it is...just means you are last to get primaried. Amarr are also supposed to be a damage dealer. Again that is weak for a couple of reasons. Gallente of course beat them here handily and while Amarr may, on PAPER, be second the realities are that it is not significant. Particularly considering they have the most horrible falloff of any race meaning not only do they have to own the "middle ground", where they are particularly inept at keeping the battle, the narrow range of their weapons adds insult to injury. They have to be concerned with both ends of the spectrum (not too far, not too close) where everyone else is concerned with only one of those and generally FAR more capable of keeping their ideal range. Add in the resist issues to EM which Amarr are stuck with and it adds insult to injury. Then add in a serious mid slot deficit. Mid slots are the wild card in EVE play. If you know you are facing an Amarr ship your considerations are FAR more simple than facing any other race. A few tracking disruptors and you are golden not to mention Amarr are most susceptible to full on EW jamming. Amarr are least capable at fending this off. If Amarr are saddled with horridly few mid slots, fighting in the middle ground where they cannot keep people for more than moments, then they should wail in DPS and/or have epic tanks. More, to make Amarr something interesting make them the freaking Cap race. Give them substantial capacitors. Give them a legitimate second bonus and apply that to things like NOS and Neuts. This is where Amarr are supposed to rule. In short, fixing Amarr is not just swapping EM/Therm damage or nerfing EANM. It is giving them a unique flavor in EVE. A Unique role.
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:20:00 - [286] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I think this is wrong. I am rather appalled at CCP Zulupark's assessment that they "know" the problem and it is merely related to Omni tanks. I agree the prob is much bigger then omni tank. omni tank and the lack of damage deversity is a small prob and should be kept in game to keep Amarr from being over powered if they ever fix lasers. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Amarr suffer from an identity problem. Every other race has a niche. Caldari are the missile and EW race. Gallente are the knife fighters (close range ownage) and drones. Minmatar are the speed race and Swiss Army knife of EVE (they kinda do it all...not supreme in one area but eminently flexible). Amarr are....? I kinda disagree here. Amarr are the cap race. The prob isnt a lack of identity it is they arent living up to that identity. Thats why CCP needs to drop that laser cap use bonouse and replace it with just a plain cap bonouse. Making Amarr the cap race. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Supposedly Amarr are a tanking race. Fine...except while they have good tanks they are not actually superior there...many other ships beat them here and maintain better gank. And as has been noted a tank is crap if that is all it is...just means you are last to get primaried. If they did my changes Amarr could do good damage with small tank or small damage with strong tank. That was supost to be the point all along but as it is now they cant tank and do any small damage or do damage with a small tank. The cap just doesnt hold up my changes would fix this. Without over powering them. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Amarr are also supposed to be a damage dealer. Again that is weak for a couple of reasons. Gallente of course beat them here handily and while Amarr may, on PAPER, be second the realities are that it is not significant. Particularly considering they have the most horrible falloff of any race meaning not only do they have to own the "middle ground", where they are particularly inept at keeping the battle, the narrow range of their weapons adds insult to injury. They have to be concerned with both ends of the spectrum (not too far, not too close) where everyone else is concerned with only one of those and generally FAR more capable of keeping their ideal range. Add in the resist issues to EM which Amarr are stuck with and it adds insult to injury. Then add in a serious mid slot deficit. Mid slots are the wild card in EVE play. If you know you are facing an Amarr ship your considerations are FAR more simple than facing any other race. A few tracking disruptors and you are golden not to mention Amarr are most susceptible to full on EW jamming. Amarr are least capable at fending this off. If Amarr are saddled with horridly few mid slots, fighting in the middle ground where they cannot keep people for more than moments, then they should wail in DPS and/or have epic tanks. You cant make Amarr perfect or they are over powered. We need to stick to the core of lasers are broke and need fixing and the ship laser cap use bonouse isnt right and needs changing. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h More, to make Amarr something interesting make them the freaking Cap race. Give them substantial capacitors. Give them a legitimate second bonus and apply that to things like NOS and Neuts. This is where Amarr are supposed to rule. NOS is well not very good right now so I dont think NOS bonouse would help but if all those cap use bonouses turn into either more cap or recharge bonouses it would have the same effect of making Amarr the cap race. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h In short, fixing Amarr is not just swapping EM/Therm damage or nerfing EANM. It is giving them a unique flavor in EVE. A Unique role. Totaly agree, and I think doing EANM NERF would do more harm then good..
Cygnus Zhada Amarr The Wild Hunt	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:21:00 - [287] CCP have been sitting on their asses for far too long with this, stating that they aknowledge somthing must be done but haven't acted on it for a LONG time. It ****es me off. Do SOMETHING, I don't care (well, I do but I'm happy with whatever thrown to me at this point) if it makes us uber or not as long as it gets BETTER. And so what if they overdo it, you think that it would hurt the feeble feelings of the gallente folks if their beloved mega all of a sudden isn't the gank ship by choice anymore? Ohno, what on earth will do they do!!! They might as well go all emo and /slit! CCP stop sitting on your a$$ get your #%#ing stuff in gear! You have one race in EVE that's without a defined role, and it's lacking the means to compete in the FACTUAL PVP STRATEGIES, the role you intended for Amarr DOESN'T EXIST. ACT! Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:29:00 - [288] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada CCP have been sitting on their asses for far too long with this, stating that they aknowledge somthing must be done but haven't acted on it for a LONG time. It ****es me off. Do SOMETHING, I don't care (well, I do but I'm happy with whatever thrown to me at this point) if it makes us uber or not as long as it gets BETTER. And so what if they overdo it, you think that it would hurt the feeble feelings of the gallente folks if their beloved mega all of a sudden isn't the gank ship by choice anymore? Ohno, what on earth will do they do!!! They might as well go all emo and /slit! CCP stop sitting on your a$$ get your #%#ing stuff in gear! You have one race in EVE that's without a defined role, and it's lacking the means to compete in the FACTUAL PVP STRATEGIES, the role you intended for Amarr DOESN'T EXIST. ACT! Along these lines I SERIOUSLY hope Amarr get their much needed adjustment BEFORE Faction Warfare appears. Honestly I am still vague on how Faction Warfare will work but it implies Amarr vs. Minmatar, Gallente vs. Caldari (and so on). As things stand today Minmatar would positively annihilate Amarr. Gallente would probably whomp Caldari too but it would not be quite as lopsided as Amarr/Minmatar.
Mestor Riklar Killson Corp Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:46:00 - [289] Signed. Good analysis. Bottom line is: Amarr needs something that we're best at. This shows that it's not dps, tank or cap at least, which have been the aspects claimed to be the amarr specialties. And this isn't even taking the amarr battlecruisers into consideration. I mean, I love the Harbinger, but it is the worst tier 2 BC in the game. The Prophecy? Meh. Zealot needs buffing, retribution (frigate with one med-slot, yay!), omen, maller etc.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr The Wild Hunt	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:46:00 - [290] Caldari are in the same boat as Amarr apart from one thing; they have a defined role that actually WORKS... they're great for PVE. Also, they have (while not being uber) useful ships for PVP. Dampener Caracal isn't bad at all, blaster Ferox is nastier than most people would give them credit for, Scorp has a defined role and so does the Rokh. Amarr has... uhm, no T1 ships to look out for. The Harbinger is ok, the Abaddon isn't too bad but that's it. As someone stated; Amarr with T1 is laughable, T2 makes em somewhat work, faction stuff makes them ok. Any movie you see where some Amarr ships dishes out the ownage is either T2, faction fitted or goes against target with less than 1/2 SP amount that the Amarr player and prolly carebears too. The T1 ships are a joke. Apart from the Arbitrator but then, that's essentially a Gallente ship so you would think it'd be good anyway. And I'm STILL ****ed about the Khanid changes, I don't CARE about RP at this point. If CCP's idea of fixing Amarr is to lose the lasers and fit short range missiles it P's me off, I didn't go Amarr to fire missiles! Blerg, I'm whining... I don't like whining. They should add a new DEV and call him "CCP Procrastination" and put him in charge of Amarr. At least then we'd get the hint and stop training Amarr alltogether. Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online

Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:47:00 - [291] Originally by: Im Dumb One prob is they get gipped on that cap use for lassers bonouse on many Amarr ships. This is an issue, supposedly the cap-use bonus is to counter laser inherent advantages. Many claim that in total this does not equate to the damage bonus on other turret ships. I find this interesting as while they do deal additional damage, they can also rapidly switch ammo, and do not require reloading (I hear their adding the change all ammo feature shortly after Trinity). It's a complex issue, but simply saying it denies the ships a real bonus doesn't do the facts justice. Originally by: Im Dumb Because of the omni tank and high base resist on EM its hard for Amarr to do there true damage so a damage bonouse would help balance At what cost to shield tankers? Also consider the above points and the effect of adding effectively a second damage bonus even if you the first is not quite up to par. Originally by: Im Dumb Lasers use way to much cap They actually use around the same amount of cap as blasters, indeed having a play around I've found that the Amarr battleships don't really have the cap issues people claim they do unless you try to gank and tank at the same time. Shield tankers can sort of carry this off, in exchange for certain sacrifices, but the rest of us can't. Beams are more difficult to fit than other long range turrets, though they are also more damaging. Pulses fit fine, if you want an active tank use DHP's if you want a passive tank Mega Pulses. See the above mentioned gank and tank comment, though these days the fact that hitpoint tanks are better than active tanks means we can pretty much have it all. Beams do seem to suffer a little too much with the added cap use, shorter range, and greater fitting. Reducing any one of these would free up slots to help balance the ships against other races without costing them their flavor. There are a couple of problems, EM damage and too many drawbacks on Tach's being the ones apparent to someone who fights but does not fly Amarr. But not every drawback is an issue. Too many Amarr players take every drawback the race has and start claiming they all need fixing to make Amarr ships remotely usable. Continued...
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:47:00 - [292] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 12/11/2007 23:51:27 Further the other drawbacks you mention, some are indeed drawbacks, some are only drawbacks when compared to another race that has the same feature as an advantage. Lack of mid slots for EW - Covered on close range boats by the fact that they generally won't be fitting a web, on long range set-ups it seems a little unfair but mainly because of the number of lows one has to use to counter the multiple drawbacks on Tachyons. Few of us are fitting EW on our non-specialized ships (most of us don't have room either) these days with the exception of damps which are deservedly getting nerfed. It's a drawback, but less of one than one would think at first glance. Poor tracking on Pulses - It's a little worse than on blasters (I'm not counting on the Mega it pays for that tracking with a bonus slot) and operates at longer range. I don't see the problem there. Poor range on beams - This is a real drawback, one of many. This one should probably stay while one of the others should go. Lack of damage versatility - I disagree here, you have a couple of drone boats and several missile boats. I'd say your damage versatility roughly matchesthat of the Gallente though of course it doesn't approach the Minmatar or Caldari. It's precieved as a drawback due to the high EM resists on omni-tanks. Poor Speed - A genuine drawback, though in some cases thankfully negated by the greater number of lo-slots available. Originally by: Im Dumb Some of you are either ignorant to the Amarr problem or you wanna keep Amarr down. scratches head You see the problem with "The Amarr Problem" is that the Amarr don't seem to know what it is, everyone seems to apply their own bias (your own seems to involve keeping Minmatars obscene EM reists, I'm surprised none of the pure Amarrians have called you out for that). Each and every player has their own vision of what Amarr ships should be like, Amarr already are how Amarr should be. A lot of people fly ships while not really understanding them, they try to make them operate at ranges and fill roles that really aren't optimal for the ship, they look at the individual stats and see penalties without looking at the big picture and in the case of Amarr and Caldari they try to compare these ships using 1v1 combat while these races shine in gangs. All of this adds up to seeing more problems than there really are. Amarr have issues. However they don't need a change in tactic or style, you got what you paid for there, and if Amarr were fundamentally changed a lot of players who chose Amarr for their particular style wouldn't be impressed. Stop trying to hide major changes behind the words "little tweaks" adding a damage bonus and making them the new damage race would horrifically unbalance the game. Making Pulse use less cap than blasters is again a major change. Making Pulses into 15km blasters with higher damage and less cap use... it just doesn't sound right. [EDIT: @ Cygnus so many people wanted the Khanid mk II proposal, but I never really did understand why (though the QEN gives some hint when you look at the missile skills of Amarr characters)... Amarr = Lasers without the lightshow it's just not Amarr. ]
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:03:00 - [293] Edited by: shinsushi on 13/11/2007 00:05:01 these little drawback or whatever you call the are truly large drawbacks. Here is a rundown: Pulses: -tracking (0.05 less rad per sec thats ALOT) -cap use -fitting (about as hard as blasters to fit) -damage* -bugged ammo (most of which DOES NOT LAST FORVER) +range +reload time (if it works) Beams: -range -fitting -cap use -bugged ammo + dmg * + tracking *= listen to this, minnie gunboats all get a -rof bonus, gallente gunboats all get a +dmg bonus, amarr gunboats all get a cap bonus (abaddon excluded). Logic dictates Arties(-25% rof) are balanced against Hybrids (+25% dmg) against lasers (-50% cap) The cruisers are harder to fit, and do not do what they should (omen does not gank, maller tanks but thats it). Cruiser have weak drone bays too. We have an entire bonus wasted to cap use, while minnie/gallente get damage bonuses in their place. This means pulses are the least damaging, and TACHyons are equal in dmg (not range) to 425s. This is not right. Cap is an issue, you yourself said you do not pilot our ships. While other races are free to fit guns + active tank + speed mod, we have to choose between the three because of lasers. Only pulses use similar amounts of cap to blasters. Beams are on a whole different level. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:06:00 - [294] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Im Dumb One prob is they get gipped on that cap use for lassers bonouse on many Amarr ships. This is an issue, supposedly the cap-use bonus is to counter laser inherent advantages. Many claim that in total this does not equate to the damage bonus on other turret ships. I find this interesting as while they do deal additional damage, they can also rapidly switch ammo, and do not require reloading (I hear their adding the change all ammo feature shortly after Trinity). Rapidly switch ammo? Honestly I am getting tired of this refrain. It is not THAT big a deal and one I am pretty sure every Amarr player would happily assume. Don't get me wrong, it is nice but frankly in most situations a non-issue. Long range ships will have long range ammo in...knife fighters will have close range ammo in and both are able to, most times, see their ideal range met versus Amarr. Talking to most PvPers asking them how often they change ammo and the answer is rarely in the midst of a fight. Quote: Originally by: Im Dumb Lasers use way to much cap They actually use around the same amount of cap as blasters, indeed having a play around I've found that the Amarr battleships don't really have the cap issues people claim they do unless you try to gank and tank at the same time. Shield tankers can sort of carry this off, in exchange for certain sacrifices, but the rest of us can't. Oh my...I am sure you know better than this. Yes, at L5 an Amarr ship WITH a cap reduction bonus on lasers actually uses a smidge less cap than a Gallente ship. Note that to do that the Amarr ship needs L5 trained AND has to burn a ship bonus to get that.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr The Wild Hunt	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:08:00 - [295] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 13/11/2007 00:16:16 Daelin; you're still hammering on that people want to try to change the Amarr role and that Amarr is capable of filling that role. But that role simply doesn't exist in real combat, you're either facehugging at a gate/belt or shooting at sniperange. Anything inbetween simply doesn't work and will get outclassed/outgunned because the target in/decreases range at will. And again, Amarr T1 ships lack severely. Picture this; the FC is forming a medium/cruiser fast roaming gang. FC: Right guys, state what you can fly please. Caldari guy; Well, I can fly a Blackbird if you want, or a damp Caracal. Can also get a Drake to act as bait if needed. FC: get the damp Caracal m8 Minmatar guy; either a rupture or a stabber or a hurricane ofcourse. But you always ask me to fly the Hurricane anyway. FC: yeah well either the stabber as a tackler or just get the hurricane. (PS; ruppies are underrated) Gallente guy; well, Celestis, Vexor, Thorax or Myrm. FC; they're all good, I wish you could fly all 3 of them at the same time, I'm happy with whatever you bring. Amarr guy; Uhm... Omen, maller or perhaps a Harbinger? /gulp FC: WTF, omen or maller? GTFO! Amarr guy; well, could also bring an Arbitrator FC: what's an arbitrator, never seen one. Amarr guy; it's essentially a Vexor that had a paint job FC; /sigh. Oh well, get that one then. THAT is how it works, regardless of (intended) roles or not. Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
Karma Gallente Mos Eisley Consortium	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:15:00 - [296] signed, as a gallente who cross-train in Amarr ships... even though they make me cry. :( still though, amarr ships can dual-rep more easily than other ships, I believe. _________________ "No Worries" Karma, fool on the hull.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:30:00 - [297] Can't deny Amarr cruisers lack that certain something. But your saying this role doesn't exist when I use it myself on ships that are typically considered rather poor for it. The Megathron can be fitted to deal around 700 DPS from medium range, it's not as good as most Amarr ships but it's what I have. I find It rather entertaining to have close-range obsessed opponents tackled while bombarding them with high damage from beyond their range. It's something I developed a taste for when I was training up my Caldari ships and it works. Even if the gang jumps through a gate into a camp, provided you don't get really unlucky with the spacing and provided the tacklers went through first and know their stuff the advantage, with equal numbers, is generally yours. A tackled close-range ship is an island, isolated and unable to support or be supported. A tackled med range ship is in a far better position. With the Hyena about to enter the fray close-range ships are getting quite possibly the biggest nerf to any kind of ship since stacking was introduced, cheap, easy to train for and very effective a single Hyena can completely disable multiple close-range ships. Medium range set-ups, however, aren't going to be phased by it. Laser and Missile boats supported by minmatar recons/hyena's are going to be for the win.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:36:00 - [298] Originally by: Im Dumb Minmatar have no advantage over Amarr when it comes to resist look at the Zelot with its 80 explosive resist and 60 EM the Minmatar top 2 damage types. You do realize that a 90% resist takes half the damage that an 80% resist does?
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:36:00 - [299] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 13/11/2007 00:36:07 The Caldari usually sucks 1v1 but shines in a gang. Maybe that's the intended role for many of the amarr-ships too? Mid range damagesupport, no?
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:42:00 - [300] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Im Dumb Minmatar have no advantage over Amarr when it comes to resist look at the Zelot with its 80 explosive resist and 60 EM the Minmatar top 2 damage types. You do realize that a 90% resist takes half the damage that an 80% resist does? That's a fudge. It takes half the damage of the resisted 80% resist. Not half of the total damage. If I do 100 points in a shot and you resist 80% I hit for 20. At 90% I hit for 10 points....1/2 of 20 but still only 10% less of the total damage.

Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:54:00 - [301] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf The Megathron can be fitted to deal around 700 DPS from medium range, it's not as good as most Amarr ships but it's what I have. I find It rather entertaining to have close-range obsessed opponents tackled while bombarding them with high damage from beyond their range. It's something I developed a taste for when I was training up my Caldari ships and it works. Even if the gang jumps through a gate into a camp, provided you don't get really Certainly we can contemplate any number of scenarios where, with support, any other ship may do well. But on balance any other ship that is tackled has more remaining ability than an Amarr ship. Tackle a Gallente ship and they have their drones. Tackle a Caldari ship and they have their missiles which are immune to things like tracking disruptors and can fire FoF. Tackling a Minmatar ship is harder due to their inherent speed and with split weapon systems then can likely still do something. ALL of those have more mid slots to fend off tacklers and tackle them right back. Think of it this way. You are goind into an OP where the opponent is fielding 10 Scorpions or 10 Typhoons or 10 Dominixes or 10 Armageddons. Which of that lot do you think would be easiest to counter? For my money the Armas, even one of the best ships Amarr have to offer, would be simplest to counter. Everyone else in that list will give you fits.
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:55:00 - [302] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Im Dumb [Minmatar have no advantage over Amarr when it comes to resist look at the Zelot with its 80 explosive resist and 60 EM the Minmatar top 2 damage types. I also dont wanna see any changes made to Amarr that could brake another part of the game. Minmatar do have an advantage in that they CAN choose ammo for their guns that does differing damage not to mention they usually have split weapons systems with missiles also allowing them to change up ammo to best effect. Add in that they, of all races, are masters at controlling range and the ball is firmly in their court. Amarr can do what to change things up on Minmatar exactly? I have two main chars each 2 months apart mini is 28mill Amarr is 27mill. So I know them both well. Mini can use a diffrent ammo to change up its damage type but it takes a total damage loss to do this. All mini ammo is not made the same. So changing ammo to find a hole in resist doesnt always work if your doing less damage to begin with. As for the split missle systems other then the phoon huggin and rapier they are not split they just have a few missle slots. And if they did take advantage of all the missles and not sure all turrets they take a DPS drop for it. Everything as its trade offs. And they are indeed the speed rance. Sadly they are also a point blank race. or a low DPS race. If they use damage ammo they are point blank and webbed so no more speed. If they fit barrage and use there falloff they are a low DPS race. Minmatar are pretty balanced. Amarr however are totaly gimped. Mini will beat Amarr but not because of resists they will out last them with cap.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.13 01:04:00 - [303] Originally by: Im Dumb I have two main chars each 2 months apart mini is 28mill Amarr is 27mill. So I know them both well. Mini can use a diffrent ammo to change up its damage type but it takes a total damage loss to do this. All mini ammo is not made the same. So changing ammo to find a hole in resist doesnt always work if your doing less damage to begin with. Point is they have options. Whether a more damaging ammo is better versus better resists or a lower damaging ammo against weaker resists is better is something for you, the pilot, to figure out. Not to mention the option may well allow you to stay out of effective laser range. You may do less damage but controlling the range battle is a pure win for Minmatar even if that means taking a bit longer to drop their Amarr Nemesis. Having an Amarr and a Minmatar on the same account should nuke your credit card...or something.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.13 01:05:00 - [304] since it feels like I haven't said it in ages... NERF AMARR! Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/11/2007 21:34:44 EDIT You know what, Tortun has this one under control...* *Basks in the chaos of this thread
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.13 01:09:00 - [305] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 13/11/2007 01:09:09 Originally by: Tortun Nahme since it feels like I haven't said it in ages... NERF AMARR! No need to say it. As bad as Amarr suck CCP has continued nerfing them left and right the last few months. What good ships Amarr had are almost totally borked leaving them with nothing.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.13 01:32:00 - [306] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 13/11/2007 01:35:56 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Certainly we can contemplate any number of scenarios where, with support, any other ship may do well. But none do as well in this role as Amarr. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Tackle a Gallente ship and they have their drones. Kill the drones, even without the drone scoop nerf they won't do too well 45km from their parent ship. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Tackle a Caldari ship and they have their missiles which are immune to things like tracking disruptors and can fire FoF. You mean cruise missiles? Because torps no longer reach beyond approx 25km (30km is the stat but targets move and missiles need to accelerate) Your telling me that the Cruise missiles, that almost no one will fit, are going to be doing comparable damage to your lasers. Don't even go there with FoF missiles, first they are cruise so the damage is negligible second they have a tendency to go after drones or supporting teammates. As a final point cruise are not a close-combat weapon system. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Tackling a Minmatar ship is harder due to their inherent speed and with split weapon systems then can likely still do something. Speed is irrelevant unless we're talking about smaller class ship compared to your battlegroup. Since tacklers tend to be frigates or 'ceptors the only advantage is when they use frigates and 'ceptors themselves in which case some of them may actually escape. The split layout won't help at all since neither auto's nor torps will reach out to the med-range ships Originally by: Imperator Jora'h ALL of those have more mid slots to fend off tacklers and tackle them right back. Hyena's, Rapiers, Huginns. Plus if I have to sacrifice a couple of t1 frigates to kill a few battleships I call that a good engagement. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Think of it this way. You are goind into an OP where the opponent is fielding 10 Scorpions or 10 Typhoons or 10 Dominixes or 10 Armageddons. Which of that lot do you think would be easiest to counter? For my money the Armas, even one of the best ships Amarr have to offer, would be simplest to counter. Everyone else in that list will give you fits. The scorpions would melt from drone damage, FoF's, or just missing a cycle or two. Yes I'd bring cruise if the intel was good. The Typhoons are easy to jam. The Dominix's are nothing once their drones are dead. None of these ships with close-range fitting is going to be able to reach the Armageddons if tackling is good, those who do will still face the incoming fire of all the geddons regardless of whether or not the Amarr have been tackled. Even if we were talking long-range set-ups on the enemy ships the Amarr ships will still do more damage. No matter what races, roles, or ranges your gang is made up of the way to win will be making the most of their strengths, exploiting the enemies weaknesses and perhaps most importantly controlling the battle. If your close-range and can't get there.. your dead. If your medium/long range and can't keep them off you... your dead (though not so much as the close-range ships you still have support). It's balance.
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.13 01:44:00 - [307] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Imperator Jora'h ALL of those have more mid slots to fend off tacklers and tackle them right back. Hyena's, Rapiers, Huginns. Plus if I have to sacrifice a couple of t1 frigates to kill a few battleships I call that a good engagement. Those are all minmitar ships not Amarr. The Amarr have Sentinel, Pilgrim, Curse. And they are all horable with the new NOS. And for all your other points I agree on some of it thats why I wanna stick with the 4 basic changes of ship cap use bonouse, fitting, wep cap use, and to a lesser dagree damage buff.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.13 01:57:00 - [308] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 13/11/2007 01:35:56 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Certainly we can contemplate any number of scenarios where, with support, any other ship may do well. But none do as well in this role as Amarr. How so? I'm not seeing it but as clever as I like to think I am I'll allow I am missing something here. Quote: Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Tackle a Gallente ship and they have their drones. Kill the drones, even without the drone scoop nerf they won't do too well 45km from their parent ship. Point is they have that extra option. Yes Amarr have drones but the Gallente drones are FAR better. It adds to Gallente flexibility in a wayt wholly unavailable to the Amarr. Quote: Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Tackle a Caldari ship and they have their missiles which are immune to things like tracking disruptors and can fire FoF. You mean cruise missiles? Because torps no longer reach beyond approx 25km (30km is the stat but targets move and missiles need to accelerate) Your telling me that the Cruise missiles, that almost no one will fit, are going to be doing comparable damage to your lasers. Don't even go there with FoF missiles, first they are cruise so the damage is negligible second they have a tendency to go after drones or supporting teammates. As a final point cruise are not a close-combat weapon system. This is an age old argument over whether missiles with guaranteed damage versus tracking issues wins. Personally I think there is a LOT to be said for guaranteed hits/damage even if that damage is lower than an idealized turret. They can hit the same at max range as point blank and are immune to tracking EW. That is no small thing. At the least it clears up the tactical situation for missile users...they have a lot less to consider in their gameplay.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.13 02:03:00 - [309] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 13/11/2007 02:03:34 Quote: Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Think of it this way. You are goind into an OP where the opponent is fielding 10 Scorpions or 10 Typhoons or 10 Dominixes or 10 Armageddons. Which of that lot do you think would be easiest to counter? For my money the Armas, even one of the best ships Amarr have to offer, would be simplest to counter. Everyone else in that list will give you fits. The scorpions would melt from drone damage, FoF's, or just missing a cycle or two. Yes I'd bring cruise if the intel was good. The Typhoons are easy to jam. The Dominix's are nothing once their drones are dead. Interesting you poo pooed FOF's earlier and now use them to support your argument. Good or bad pick a side. And yes Scorps can go down fast but they can cause so much trouble they are usually primaried. Low DPS sure but they can ruin opponents...they need ot die and quick and their meltability is their balance. Got no problems with the Scorp but I guarantee I give it attention when I see it...more than pretty much any other sub-cap ship.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.13 02:04:00 - [310] I already mentioned that the game is obviously balanced for mixed fleet tactics. There is no unwritten law stating that if you field mid-range battleships (Amarr of otherwise) that you cannot field minmatar tacklers indeed their pretty much essential to any gang these days due to the prevelence of speed-gangs. Not that it really matters as frigates of any race will happily perform much the same task, merely not as well. Though of course anything other than Minmatar will be useless vs speed-gangs but that's another topic entirely. I would have thought Amarr specced players would be more aware of med-range tactics and their application, their advantages and disadvantages. I feel like a carpenter teaching an old lady to knit.

Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.13 02:08:00 - [311] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 13/11/2007 02:12:11 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Interesting you poo pooed FOF's earlier and now use them to support your argument. Good or bad pick a side. Fascinating isn't it. They're awful. But if your jammed they're better than nothing and if I knew a gang of 10 scorpions (lol) was coming I'd be crazy not to fit them. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h And yes Scorps can go down fast but they can cause so much trouble they are usually primaried. Low DPS sure but they can ruin opponents...they need ot die and quick and their meltability is their balance. Got no problems with the Scorp but I guarantee I give it attention when I see it...more than pretty much any other sub-cap ship. The Scorp is only really an issue if it's jamming your linch-pin ships while their damage dealers are still hammering away at you. Can we be moving back to Amarr instead of trying to pick my every point apart?
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.11.13 02:13:00 - [312] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf .... So, why would anyone stick around @ 25+km? Warp out, then back in on top of your enemy since warp to zero means no 15km crawl (another amarr nerf btw.) An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.13 02:35:00 - [313] Edited by: Im Dumb on 13/11/2007 02:36:36 I think we all seem to be in agreement that Amarr are broke. What is needed is how to FIX them. Sadly CCP seems to only think that omni tank is the prob but I think its more then that and alot of you seem to think its more then just omni tank too. Every race has things to point at that suck about them. Minmitar tanks arent great, target painters as are other EW give me a brake. I can keep going here but the point is that they have other good things about them that balance all these things makeing them a very good fun and competative group. So rather then list all the things wrong with Amarr or not wrong with Amarr what aspects would you change to fix the brokenness that is them. CCP has asked for this in other posts and hopefully they are reading this one at least. So what is the thing you would do to FIX it. We know what I want but Ill say it again Ship weapon cap use needs to turn in to either more cap or better recharge bonouse. Lasers need to have PG ajusted to make them fitable, on beams mostly but pulse too. Lasers need to use less cap to make them have fireing times inline with hybrids. Lasers need a small damage bump to make up for omni tank. One way to make them use less cap without really changing the crystals is give them a breater damage mod and a slower ROF this gives more volly but less often so same DPS. Then can buff the damage mod a lil more to make up for omni 2 small changes to the date base and fixes alot of Amarr probs.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.13 02:41:00 - [314] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Can we be moving back to Amarr instead of trying to pick my every point apart? Well sure...as long as you stop picking very particular circumstances. Any ship can do well in a gang. My point it that while Amarr may do well it is simpler for other ships to do just as well if not better in a gang. Amarr certainly fail miserably solo. But if Amarr are to be worst solo than balance would suggest that they would be ace in gangs. While good in gangs most any other ship is better. Let me put it another way and this is something I have asked in multiple threads and seems to be a thread killer because faced with it there is no good rebuttal: Assume you have L5 skills in EVERYTHING. You are going out to do battle. Is there ANY Amarr ship you would pick before anything else? The only ships I can think worth opting for in very specific circumstances would be a Guardian or a Damnation...maybe a Crusader for anti-inty work. Beyond those would you ever choose ANY Amarr ship? Pretend you are in a tournament and laid down $1,000 of your own cash. Going for any Anarr ship in that circumstance?
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.13 03:12:00 - [315] I'd chose that Abaddon set-up I posted over a Domi, Mega, or Hype any day of the week if I had a full set of level 5 skills. Now I'm tired of trying to argue people round to the fact that medium range combat actually exists and Amarr are ace at it. So we'll leave that and agree to disagree since we're getting nowhere. I'm not saying Amarr don't need a buff. What I am saying is that Amarr only need a small buff and they certainly don't need their entire tactical forte and style rethought after so many years of people using the ships. It'd be like doing something crazy like limiting carrier to only five drones or something. If you trained Amarr and don't like, or don't even believe in, mid-range combat then you've made a similar kind of mistake to someone who trained Caldari doesn't like med/long range combat or trained Gallente and doesn't like blasters and drones. So what do Amarr need "more" of to better in their role? It's not damage, they have oodles for their range bracket. It's not tracking, again it's fine for their range. It's not hitpoints, they're already doing a fine job there. It's not capacitor as I've fought and toyed with perfectly fine set-ups provided you don't try to do everything on one ship. So what is it. Other than the Crapocalypse needing to actually be good at something. -------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING!
Sofring Eternus Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.13 03:30:00 - [316] Seriously guys, its not the ships. Its the Lasers. People will say, the Arbitrator is a great Amarr cruiser, Amarr say thats because its Gallente-lite. People will say that the Khanid ships are solid, Amarr say thats because its Diet Caldari. The Amarr ships are a solid design concept. Lots of turrets, lots of low slots, balanced by being slow and having limited mids. (I for one would love to see the spare high slots turned into lows for better tanks and ganks. Or maybe an extra med slot for ships that truly hurt for meds and already have lots of lows.) Lasers are balanced too, but how can this be? I just said Lasers were at fault for the Amarr woes. Well thats because balanced is relative. All the turrets are relatively equal. Nerf one stat by 25% and buff another by an equal amount. You can actually apply that to all 3 turret types and they come out close to equal. The problem is, what are you giving up for what gains? Well Pulse give everything up for MOAR RANGE! ahem they give up tracking, falloff, and cap use. Beams give everything up for MOAR DAMAGE! and some tracking please. They give up a bit of range, some falloff, lots of cap use, and lots of powergrid. So if we want to improve the energy turrets, we need to trade in some of the benefits to remove some of the disadvantages. (or at least reduce them to bring them close flavor wise to the other turrets). I've outlined my own preferences earlier in the thread. Of course, your not going to see the developers suggest to the Amarr playerbase that they need to give up an advantage to negate the disadvantages. The forums would burn hotter than the deepest pit of hades with all the flames and counter flames. --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ Amarr dont need Grr... and RAWR is definately too much, but some Oomph would be nice.
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.13 03:42:00 - [317] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf It's not damage, they have oodles for their range bracket. It's not tracking, again it's fine for their range. It's not hitpoints, they're already doing a fine job there. It's not capacitor as I've fought and toyed with perfectly fine set-ups provided you don't try to do everything on one ship. So what is it. Other than the Crapocalypse needing to actually be good at something. So what is it? You say its not damage, I think its part but not a big part. Not hitpoints I agree not tracking I also agree. When it comes to cap your wrong tho. With perfect skills using conflag and void ammo Mega pulse use 47% more cap then Nuets, and do 50% more damage. Now most of that damage is EM so after resist Neuts do more damage. But all of that is not a big problem. This is the problem a fully loaded Mega can run his 7 Neuts 398% longer then a Gedon can run his Mega Pulse. So the DPS of a Gedon might be higher then the Mega very shortly that damage turns into ZERO.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.11.13 03:46:00 - [318] Originally by: Daelin BlackleafSo what do Amarr need "more" of to better in their role? It's not damage, they have oodles for their range bracket. It's not tracking, again it's fine for their range. It's not hitpoints, they're already doing a fine job there. It's not capacitor as I've fought and toyed with perfectly fine set-ups provided you don't try to do everything on one ship. So what is it. Other than the Crapocalypse needing to actually be good at something. [:D Crapocalypse is an issue unto its own. - Damage for their range bracket? Amarr need to keep enemies in a VERY narrow window to do well. They have generally slow ships and an MWD is almost totally out of the picture for them. Pretty much an enemy they will face either wants to get close and personal or keep range. The time Amarr get their licks in at their ideal range is minimal and Amarr have almost no hope of changing that. - Amarr have the WORST tracking at close range. Period. They have the best traking with long range weapons but the shortest range of long range weapons. Where does that help them? Someone gets close their better tracking long range weapons is not that good and they are screwed anyway. Their worse tracking short range weapons screws them again. - Hitpoints are good but not everything. A damage sink is worthless if it can make no trouble for the enemy. Further, if you look at tanks in EVE Amarr are not tops. What's more is those better tanked ships often do more DPS as well or close enough as to make no odds. Except for the Damnation I do not think the Amarr have the best tank in any class (heard the Vultire may be better tank wise). - You'd THINK Amarr would wail in capacitor. They do not. What really gets me is even the new Marauder class ship are actually equal in cap. Messed up. Cap race? Where? Show me.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.13 03:52:00 - [319] Originally by: Sofring Eternus So if we want to improve the energy turrets, we need to trade in some of the benefits to remove some of the disadvantages. (or at least reduce them to bring them close flavor wise to the other turrets). Logic In this thread.... It's more likely than you think. But I'd still consider fixing the small issue of base 90% reists to EM before looking at the weapon system itself. You also want to consider the fact that if you shift the bonuses too far towards the norm you end up with hybrids with prettier effects. ..and why with the complaining about Pulse cap use! Or is it that I should be joining arms with you and complaining about Blaster cap use too? -------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING!
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.13 03:53:00 - [320] Originally by: Im Dumb Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf It's not damage, they have oodles for their range bracket. It's not tracking, again it's fine for their range. It's not hitpoints, they're already doing a fine job there. It's not capacitor as I've fought and toyed with perfectly fine set-ups provided you don't try to do everything on one ship. So what is it. Other than the Crapocalypse needing to actually be good at something. So what is it? You say its not damage, I think its part but not a big part. Not hitpoints I agree not tracking I also agree. When it comes to cap your wrong tho. With perfect skills using conflag and void ammo Mega pulse use 47% more cap then Nuets, and do 50% more damage. Now most of that damage is EM so after resist Neuts do more damage. But all of that is not a big problem. This is the problem a fully loaded Mega can run his 7 Neuts 398% longer then a Gedon can run his Mega Pulse. So the DPS of a Gedon might be higher then the Mega very shortly that damage turns into ZERO. Holy crap point score me I win I JUST MADE A HUGE MISTAKE. When I was doing all that I forgot I had 5 Orger IIs in the Gedon so here are the real and even worse stats With all of that same stuff Mega pulse on Gedon use 47% more cap and do 27% less damage and Neuts run 398% longer. So tell me you still think damage isnt a problem? Or is 47% more cap and 27% less damage worth an extra 10k range?

daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.13 03:55:00 - [321] Finally some constructive progress in this thread. I'd like to thank Daelin Blackleaf, Sofring Eternus and Imperator Jora'h in particular for providing well reasoned, contemplative and constructive posts from a multitude of angles. Originally by: Sofring Eternus Seriously guys, its not the ships. Its the Lasers. Yep, great point. Personally I'm all for a reworking of lasers, so long as it's kept balanced and unique. Where most of us would seem to disagree is just how to accomplish that. People seem to want to deny the fact that you can't fit amarr ships the same way as you can <insert race here> because you're not supposed to. You're supposed to be laser spouting armored bricks of death in space, especially in the battleship class. Majority of people do seem to agree that amarr could do with a boost. Majority of those people also seem to agree that lasers are tough to fit and that the laser cap reduction 'bonus' on amarr ships needs to be adjusted. I myself have conceded those points, and would love to see them get addressed properly. Reworking fitting and cap reqs without relying on the amarr ship bonus would mean that you might finally see them on other ships as well. Win/win imo. Someone mentioned the amarr are supposed to be the 'cap' race. I believe that's true, and their recons pretty much seal that as fact. I'm all for a nos/neut bonus replacement except that it will pretty much move us back into the dark ages before the nos nerf, just with amarr ships using them. I'm not sure how it could be done fairly so that amarr recons at the very least reclaimed their birthright and yet not have people screaming bloody murder at nos, but we've pretty much gone from nos being needed on every setup to an extreme rarity. Achieving a middleground where they were useful to amarr, but not an 'i win' button would be a perfect solution imo. The nos/neut range also fits in perfectly with the amarr design, so it seems a logical choice. As for the minmatar speed/high EM resist argument, well frankly....backstory. These are your nemesis for a reason, and I would be interested in a unique solution that maintained the backstory, was balanced, and maintained the mythos of EVE. High EM resists on armor in general for me is a non issue. You're shield killers. Don't fly alone, I don't do it in any ship regardless of race or class because no ship should be completely self sufficient. When used properly, a group of amarr only ships are absolutely deadly in a small gang of as little as two or three. Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Other than the Crapocalypse needing to actually be good at something. Hey, that's one of my fav ships you're talking about there buddy. =)
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.13 03:59:00 - [322] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Sofring Eternus So if we want to improve the energy turrets, we need to trade in some of the benefits to remove some of the disadvantages. (or at least reduce them to bring them close flavor wise to the other turrets). Logic In this thread.... It's more likely than you think. But I'd still consider fixing the small issue of base 90% reists to EM before looking at the weapon system itself. You also want to consider the fact that if you shift the bonuses too far towards the norm you end up with hybrids with prettier effects. ..and why with the complaining about Pulse cap use! Or is it that I should be joining arms with you and complaining about Blaster cap use too? That 90% is on armor of minmitar ships that you shield tank just like the armor tanked Zelot has 90% explosive resist on its shields. The only Armor tanked mini ship that has 90% EM is the Munnin and I would love for those resists to be changed 92.5/67.5/25/10. I think its the hardest T2 ship in the game to put a good tank on. Oh also the wolf but it has same resists as Munnin with even fewer lows to fill the gaps. Everyone has ups and downs.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.13 04:32:00 - [323] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 13/11/2007 04:33:17 Originally by: Im Dumb With all of that same stuff Mega pulse on Gedon use 47% more cap and do 27% less damage and Neuts run 398% longer. So tell me you still think damage isnt a problem? Or is 47% more cap and 27% less damage worth an extra 10k range? Your using a biased example with the geddon. Also you may want to consider that most blasterboat pilots don't use t2 ammo and prefer faction. Originally by: Im Dumb Now most of that damage is EM so after resist Neuts do more damage. I've heard this somewhere before. Originally by: Im Dumb But all of that is not a big problem. This is the problem a fully loaded Mega can run his 7 Neuts 398% longer then a Gedon can run his Mega Pulse. So the DPS of a Gedon might be higher then the Mega very shortly that damage turns into ZERO. Again your using the geddon, it has a RoF bonus, it is going to eat cap. Compensate for that or use a different ship. With triple HS and the Mega Pulse running you'll get 4m14s out of it. That's without adding an injector or cap mods. Theres still room for a small hitpoint tank. Or are you trying to run an active tank and mega-pulses again? Remeber this is a tier-1 ship if you go all out and fit Mega pulse your going to hurt the fitting left for your tank. In a similar vein I wouldn't try fitting neutrons on a Domi. Indeed you'll have a hard time getting a rack of Ions on there if you plan to tank anything. (Solution 4x mediums and 2x large No rly) Originally by: Im Dumb That 90% is on armor of minmitar ships that you shield tank just like the armor tanked Zelot has 90% explosive resist on its shields Would all the Amarrians shield tanking their Zealot please raise their right hand. Let's see now, Minmatar ships with what I would call t2 resists and their EM resistance. Jaguar: 92.5% Wolf 92.5% Muninn: 92.5% Vagabond: 92.5% Claymore 92.5% Sleipnir 88.75% Scimitar 92.5% Huginn 88.75% I'm gonna stop here but you see the trend. Even the ceptors and cheetah get 80%. @ daemorhedron Would you be so kind as to share your set-up? I'd love to see a good Apoc set-up I haven't toyed with it much... I confess I've been listening to the bad-press about it. Also thanks for the compliment, they're few and far between round these parts. -------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.13 04:46:00 - [324] Originally by: Sofring Eternus Seriously guys, its not the ships. Its the Lasers. No, its both. First off, the cruisers, and frigates suck, and they suck no matter how you boost lasers. The Harbinger is O.K. the Geddon is fine for the most part[due to its large drone bay making almost 25% of its DPS explosive or thermal. To put it simple: Damage relative to hit points is a percentage based advantage. Range relative to speed is a absolute based advantage. As ships get larger and slower the range advantage increases, and as they get smaller and faster the range advantage decreases. In a gang: The primaries velocity is largly unimportant, it will get webbed and then you start to add your DPS up. So for a laser ship to be balanced with a blaster ship, the smaller and faster they become, the laser ship has to do closer to the blaster ships dps, because the difference between a neutron blaster and a heavy pulse laser is 5000m, and a thorax travels 2000m/s. So a thorax closes to a target and starts doing its DPS 2.5 second after the laser ship assuming the laser ship was in range to start. So then, if we have the neutron ship doing 16% more dps than the pulse ship[same drones, same bonuses, same turrets]. The neutron ship catches up in dps in 15 seconds. Now lets look at a battleship. If the neutron ship does 16% more dps, has to travel 10km instead of 5km, and only goes 1km/s the neutron ship is disadvantaged by four times as much and it takes 60 seconds for him to overcome the advantage of the laser ship. Now, this assumes they are doing the same damage types and doing the same damage. This is pretty much how it holds up for the Geddon shooting Conflag against the Mega shooting AN Antimatter, after drones, the extra heat sink, and resistances, the Geddon isnt really doing all that much less dps than the Megathron. So the Megtrhon catches up. In a one on one situation at optimals a Geddon will destroy a Mega in 114 seconds and the Mega will destroy that same Mega in 106 seconds[mega would destroy a Geddon in 94 seconds]. This ignores tracking which hurts the Geddon more[it needs conflag to do good dps agianst armor, the Mega actually does better with faction ammo than tech 2 against armor except gallente armor], but all in all, its about balanced. The Maller and Thorax? Not balanced in the slightest. As for the people who are saying Amarr shouldnt be a DPS race, you are wrong. Amarr should exactly be a DPS race. They should be, along with Caldari, the ship that you want to bring to provide primary DPS for a small gang. Right now the best small-med gang DPS race is Caldari[after the torp cahanges it will be so on the battelship level as well]. Even at med ranges. Missiles travel much faster than ships and have perfect agility, consistantly do more dps due to tracking, and can load variable damage types[but have a good damage type boosted as well], and have great range. They can also provide ewar, but that is another issue.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.13 04:57:00 - [325] Originally by: Goumindong So for a laser ship to be balanced with a blaster ship, the smaller and faster they become, the laser ship has to do closer to the blaster ships dps. That's a very good point I honestly hadn't considered. Also I have Caldari BS V and the new torps scare me. Why, because they will fill both the close and med range role better than any other weapon type. Kiss auto's, lasers, and blasters goodbye. We are entering the age of the torpedo. This will make combat rather boring. -------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING!
Esmerelle	Posted - 2007.11.13 10:44:00 - [326] Originally by: Im Dumb Minmatar have no advantage over Amarr when it comes to resist look at the Zelot with its 80 explosive resist and 60 EM the Minmatar top 2 damage types. I also dont wanna see any changes made to Amarr that could brake another part of the game. Whell.....we have advantage in speed, in range and in damage type. (and look an jaguar/wolf resists). I by myself whanna see strong opponents, not weaklings. It just a game. /signed
Matan Gandi	Posted - 2007.11.13 11:34:00 - [327] Great Thread! /Signed in all points
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.11.13 11:38:00 - [328] Edited by: bloomich on 13/11/2007 11:42:09 Sick of people saying they will cancel their accounts if Amarr dont get fixed? Let me do the opposite. I uncancelled this account yesterday so I could say that Amarr is Shafted. I also want to say that the best thing Amarr can do is reduce highslots and increase midslots, with appropriate ship bonus's so ships dont lose out on damage. Eve Beta had a real reason for Amarr to have few mids. Eve 2007, PVP and PvE has changed and this philosophy is broken and needs to be re-evaluated. I would also like to say that EANM's are NOT A PROBLEM if and ONLY if you have Compensation Skill effect Active harders. EANM was NEVER a problem before compensation skills, and the fact compensation skills were prenerfed to not effect Active hardners is the real problem. It is the prenerfed compensation skills that need to be fixed so people go back to active hardner setups. --SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.13 11:44:00 - [329] Because Amarr are allegedly the mid-range race, they are the ones who benefit the most from tracking computers boosting both optimal and tracking. Nerfing TCs so that they boost either tracking or optimal rather than both hurts Amarr ships more than others. For example, someone using blasters won't care about boosting their optimal range because it's so small to start with. They'll just fit a tracking script and be as good as they were before. Someone fitting mega pulses feels the benefit of increased optimal and tracking, but now they'll have to choose between the two. It looks like oomph is the sound made by Amarrians being repeatedly kicked in the ribs. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.11.13 11:57:00 - [330] Edited by: bloomich on 13/11/2007 11:58:08 Originally by: Rodj Blake Because Amarr are allegedly the mid-range race, they are the ones who benefit the most from tracking computers boosting both optimal and tracking. Nerfing TCs so that they boost either tracking or optimal rather than both hurts Amarr ships more than others. For example, someone using blasters won't care about boosting their optimal range because it's so small to start with. They'll just fit a tracking script and be as good as they were before. Someone fitting mega pulses feels the benefit of increased optimal and tracking, but now they'll have to choose between the two. It looks like oomph is the sound made by Amarrians being repeatedly kicked in the ribs. I have no idea what CCP's long term plans are, but they sucseeded in nerfing every viable Amarr ship. Now Amarr Nos got nerfed because people in Gallente Doneboats abused it. Now Tracking Disrupters, the most useless of all racial EW, is being nefed as a half assed fix for Gallente EW. I mean, have you ever seen anyone complain about Tracking Disrupters in real eve pvp before? Now the most effective use of a curse is a cerebus alternative to solo lvl4's. A Pilgrim's best use is to act as a cov ops that can take a smartbomb blast. I cannot beleive it, but CCP have nerfed anything decent about Amarr. They may as well just delete the race and get it over and done with. --SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that.

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.13 12:02:00 - [331] Pulse Lasers dont have long enough range for tracking computers to be valuable. You give up too much for that option. Lasers are more low slots, so the med slot item nerf helps them. They will have better tracking than ships that cant put TEs in the lows.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.13 12:02:00 - [332] Yep, people currently often fit sensor dampeners on their Arbitrators, a ship which gets a bonus to tracking disruptors. To me this indicates an imbalance in the effectiveness of the two modules. CCP's solution? Nerf both. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.13 12:06:00 - [333] Originally by: Goumindong Pulse Lasers dont have long enough range for tracking computers to be valuable. You give up too much for that option. Lasers are more low slots, so the med slot item nerf helps them. They will have better tracking than ships that cant put TEs in the lows. You can't deny that pulses benefit more from an optimal boost than ACs or blasters. Also let's not forget that often overlooked gun - the dual heavy beam laser. This gun's versatility definitely benefits from a boost to both tracking and optimal. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.11.13 12:15:00 - [334] Originally by: Goumindong Lasers are more low slots, so the med slot item nerf helps them. They will have better tracking than ships that cant put TEs in the lows. While this is true, a Amarr BS trying to hit at 170km respectably, even in falloff, needs 3-4 Tracking mods and 2-3 fitting mods depending on skills. That is 5-7 slots gone poof, which means that even a sniper rokh has more free low slots than amarr bs's. In fact, every race has at least 2-3 more lowslots than Amarr for fleet encounters. So while at first it looks like mids are important, Amarr lack the number of mids to be able to afford another sensor booster or whatever to make up for the nerf, while other races have more flexibility with more free slots to work with. --SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.13 14:35:00 - [335] Originally by: Rodj Blake It looks like oomph is the sound made by Amarrians being repeatedly kicked in the ribs. Latest Video, Click Here!
NoobALTS	Posted - 2007.11.13 15:02:00 - [336] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Originally by: Rodj Blake It looks like oomph is the sound made by Amarrians being repeatedly kicked in the ribs. Well, the most popular Amarr ship according to the dev blog, the bestower, will remain uneffected by these nerfs, so that should keep the oomph still in Amarr!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.14 01:00:00 - [337] Originally by: NoobALTS Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Originally by: Rodj Blake It looks like oomph is the sound made by Amarrians being repeatedly kicked in the ribs. Well, the most popular Amarr ship according to the dev blog, the bestower, will remain uneffected by these nerfs, so that should keep the oomph still in Amarr! Good to know that Amarr have one good ship! Latest Video, Click Here!
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.14 02:27:00 - [338] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Im Dumb With all of that same stuff Mega pulse on Gedon use 47% more cap and do 27% less damage and Neuts run 398% longer. So tell me you still think damage isnt a problem? Or is 47% more cap and 27% less damage worth an extra 10k range? Your using a biased example with the geddon. Also you may want to consider that most blasterboat pilots don't use t2 ammo and prefer faction. Well not using T2 would give you even more cap wouldnt it. And gedon is the only damage BS other then the abaddon. But how can you say its ok for Amarr lasers to use way more cap and do less damage then blasters? Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Im Dumb But all of that is not a big problem. This is the problem a fully loaded Mega can run his 7 Neuts 398% longer then a Gedon can run his Mega Pulse. So the DPS of a Gedon might be higher then the Mega very shortly that damage turns into ZERO. Again your using the geddon, it has a RoF bonus, it is going to eat cap. Compensate for that or use a different ship. With triple HS and the Mega Pulse running you'll get 4m14s out of it. That's without adding an injector or cap mods. Theres still room for a small hitpoint tank. Or are you trying to run an active tank and mega-pulses again? Remeber this is a tier-1 ship if you go all out and fit Mega pulse your going to hurt the fitting left for your tank. In a similar vein I wouldn't try fitting neutrons on a Domi. Indeed you'll have a hard time getting a rack of Ions on there if you plan to tank anything. (Solution 4x mediums and 2x large No rly) Each race has a BS for damage a BS for tanking and a weird BS. The gedon is the Amarr damage BS apoc is weird abadon is tank. For gal its mega damage domi weird Hyp tank. So you should compare damage BS to damage BS. And as I already said lasers use way more cap and do less damage. And if you say thats because you do mroe range then how come longer range crystals do way less damage? Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Im Dumb That 90% is on armor of minmitar ships that you shield tank just like the armor tanked Zelot has 90% explosive resist on its shields Would all the Amarrians shield tanking their Zealot please raise their right hand. Zealot gets 80% explosive resist on armor. I think thats pretty good. Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Let's see now, Minmatar ships with what I would call t2 resists and their EM resistance. Jaguar: 92.5% Wolf 92.5% Muninn: 92.5% Vagabond: 92.5% Claymore 92.5% Sleipnir 88.75% Scimitar 92.5% Huginn 88.75% I'm gonna stop here but you see the trend. Even the ceptors and cheetah get 80%. Well the Jag vaga claymore sleipnier huginn are all shield tankers not armor they all get 75% EM on shields or worse. Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf [EDIT: A small snippet of info, thanks to such resistance tom-foolery the light and nimble Rupture has more base normalized HP than the mighty gold plated Zealot. That's without even changing the incoming damage type to Em/Therm. ] Rupture as has 1641 armor and 70/35/25/10 EM/therm/kin/exp zealote has 2250 60/35/62.5/80 So Im going to call BS on that.
Im Dumb	Posted - 2007.11.14 02:47:00 - [339] I dont have EFT on this computer but some one look this up for me. For perfect skills. What is the cap use of ONE Mega Pulse on a domi and DPS? What is the cap use of ONE Nuet on a Apoc and DPS? This way ship bonouses dont effect the weps. My point is the laser is broke not the ships I bet you that the Mega Pulse uses more cap for less damage. And the Nuet uses less cap for more damage. And if you say thats becuase you get alonger range, your wrong. For one the so called "med" range doesnt mean anything if you dont have a tackler. If you say get a tackler then I could say get a Jammer to suport your close range. For two, the longer the range crystals you do cap use and damage goes down as range go up. So Amarr are paying for damage not range we just arent getting it.
nanobot2of6 Amarr The Singularity Amalgamation	Posted - 2007.11.14 03:23:00 - [340] /signed i play as amarr but we suck so im currently training up for domi and rail guns just to i dont suck so much at PvP and ratting please devs help us amarr and our pretty ships

PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.14 12:57:00 - [341] I for some reason thought that developers should show elementary respect for a theme of race which does not exist for them. Silence is worse than any answer. I am disappointed. At amarr there is no single problem, but a heap of small lacks - and they are not visible for those who did not play for amarr at least up to a level of a battlecruiser. Bad tracking in close combat, an inconvenient distance of fight, useless combat strategy, the big consumption of capasitor by lasers, lack of bonuses by the ships, etc. Any of them separately - nothing important. But together they create the reason - why only 16 % of players are amarrs, and why most of them trained another race... and why themes like this are periodically created. Also it is the reason why for others "amarr problem" not present - it is impossible for all this to understand simply on EFT - it is necessary to play for our race (not just kill or been killed by amarr). P.S. I would like to apologize if my posts have offended someone - but it is really complex - to argue with foreigners in another's language at an another's forum, especially when you understand - that it is impossible to overpersuade the person with any arguments, because it does not understand them.
Dramaan	Posted - 2007.11.14 13:23:00 - [342] Good write up. /signed
clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation	Posted - 2007.11.14 13:35:00 - [343] Very good writeup, point well made. Distinct lack of gold bars for this golden race thread though. Always Moaning About Race Retardations
Zolofine M34t p0p s1ckle Manufacturing Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.14 13:38:00 - [344] Err wait so...You're saying that... Shield tanks own armor tanks?! And Gallente are the highest DPS?! OMG STOP THE PRESSES I THINK WE JUST DISCOVERED SOME ANCIENT HISTORY! Sry for my sarcasm, but your research proves absolutely nothing. What your numbers show is raw potential. A raw potential that is otherwise completely unused in any realistic set-up that HAS an actual chance for success. What your statistics fail to include is that the raw potential you emphasize in this post, is almost never realized without making some unrealistic sacrifices. There for it is not commonly used, and if used it fails to perform adequatly... hence, the potential is irrelevant and only serves purely, as a statistic, and nothing more. So while your statistic would seem to indicate that Amarr BB's are mediocriate at best, and quite weak on average, this indication is first and foremost statistical, and realistically speaking, i would prefer an abbadon over a hyperion any day, even though your statistic seem to indicate that a hyperion would undoubtedly be my primairy choice. If i had my pick from any of the BB, my choice would undoubtedly be a Rohk. The only statistic that can in fact provide a 'Proof or STFU' is a statistic that includes every module in the game, in every combination. Such a statistic would become almost infinitely complex, and difficult to conclude, and this the reason why balancing ships is not as obvious as it appears to be, and also the reason why certain ships that seem inferior may actually prove to be superior once their full potential is realised. To make a long story short... If at any point the general consensus comes to a point where a whole race of ships is dubbed "The DPS race", in a field aplication sense, then the nerfbat is only a stone throw away, because it suggests an unbalance that CCP have overlooked. Quite frankly, the pattern of praises, overuse, nerfs and whines is as predictable as the sceduled down time.
Dramaan	Posted - 2007.11.14 13:45:00 - [345] Edited by: Dramaan on 14/11/2007 13:45:59 Originally by: Zolofine Err wait so...You're saying that... Shield tanks own armor tanks?! And Gallente are the highest DPS?! OMG STOP THE PRESSES I THINK WE JUST DISCOVERED SOME ANCIENT HISTORY! Sry for my sarcasm, but your research proves absolutely nothing. What your numbers show is raw potential. A raw potential that is otherwise completely unused in any realistic set-up that HAS an actual chance for success. What your statistics fail to include is that the raw potential you emphasize in this post, is almost never realized without making some unrealistic sacrifices. There for it is not commonly used, and if used it fails to perform adequatly... hence, the potential is irrelevant and only serves purely, as a statistic, and nothing more. So while your statistic would seem to indicate that Amarr BB's are mediocriate at best, and quite weak on average, this indication is first and foremost statistical, and realistically speaking, i would prefer an abbadon over a hyperion any day, even though your statistic seem to indicate that a hyperion would undoubtedly be my primairy choice. If i had my pick from any of the BB, my choice would undoubtedly be a Rohk. The only statistic that can in fact provide a 'Proof or STFU' is a statistic that includes every module in the game, in every combination. Such a statistic would become almost infinitely complex, and difficult to conclude, and this the reason why balancing ships is not as obvious as it appears to be, and also the reason why certain ships that seem inferior may actually prove to be superior once their full potential is realised. To make a long story short... If at any point the general consensus comes to a point where a whole race of ships is dubbed "The DPS race", in a field aplication sense, then the nerfbat is only a stone throw away, because it suggests an unbalance that CCP have overlooked. Quite frankly, the pattern of praises, overuse, nerfs and whines is as predictable as the sceduled down time. Why don't test it out for your self in sisi i and why the rant she comparing stats the gallente shod be the dps race, Is about how many problems amarr have really.
Zolofine M34t p0p s1ckle Manufacturing Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.14 13:50:00 - [346] Originally by: Dramaan Why don't test it out for your self in sisi i and why the rant she comparing stats the gallente shod be the dps race, Is about how many problems amarr have really. WTS point...
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.14 14:23:00 - [347] Originally by: Zolofine Originally by: Dramaan Why don't test it out for your self in sisi i and why the rant she comparing stats the gallente shod be the dps race, Is about how many problems amarr have really. WTS point... The argument for lasers having such high fitting requirements and cap use is that they supposedly do the most DPS. This is not the case! They do about the same DPS as projectiles (when you take the ship bonuses in to account) which require no capacitor, have much greater falloff, much easier fittings, and a higher tracking (though the range is less, the mid-range warfare is a myth anyway as already discussed). Then the argument against this is that Amarr ships can tank like there's no tomorrow. I proved that this is again not the case, as shield tanks are much more effective (Caldari and Minmatar), so again Amarr fail. Then against the epic argument that Amarr are the 'cap race'... Well this just fails no matter how you look at it... Not enough cap to fire their own weapons (compared to two races not needing cap on the whole, and one having no trouble) despite those weapons being average at DPS and needing more fittings... Not enough cap to sustain a tank... No EW, no versatility... That's the point... And this isn't just proved by numbers in EFT... Fly Amarr for yourself on SiSi and you'll see that without a number of cap mods (something that other races need not fit, therefore freeing up lots of slots), Amarr ships and weapons fail at every turn. Latest Video, Click Here!
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.11.14 14:46:00 - [348] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Originally by: Zolofine Originally by: Dramaan Why don't test it out for your self in sisi i and why the rant she comparing stats the gallente shod be the dps race, Is about how many problems amarr have really. WTS point... The argument for lasers having such high fitting requirements and cap use is that they supposedly do the most DPS. This is not the case! They do about the same DPS as projectiles (when you take the ship bonuses in to account) which require no capacitor, have much greater falloff, much easier fittings, and a higher tracking (though the range is less, the mid-range warfare is a myth anyway as already discussed). Look in this thread to see the proof that Amarr guns are sub par. The numbers are taken from SISI with the same character (me) so skill wise they are equally affected. I would really like for Amarr to shine in just one area for their guns. Having 180mm AC's beat Focusd Medium Pulse in every aspect, is kinda disheartning to me.
Vinchester	Posted - 2007.11.14 15:01:00 - [349] I just realized that gallenteans(sp?) are the night elves of EVE.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.14 15:20:00 - [350] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Look in this thread to see the proof that Amarr guns are sub par. The numbers are taken from SISI with the same character (me) so skill wise they are equally affected. I would really like for Amarr to shine in just one area for their guns. Having 180mm AC's beat Focusd Medium Pulse in every aspect, is kinda disheartning to me. Not only that, but take a ship like the Harbinger for example, compared with the Hurricane... A Hurricane can fit a full rack of 220s, two NOS, a full dual rep armour tank, and all the midslots to make it work (MWD, Cap Booster, Scram, Web), fully t2 without any fittings mods... A Harbinger can't even fit a full rack of Focussed Medium Pulse IIs with the same lows and mids as teh Hurricane. There is no where near enough CPU, and the PG is extremely tight! Surely the choice should be either Heavy Pulse IIs and a minimal tank, or Focussed Medium Pulse IIs and a full tank? Not Focussed Medium Pulse IIs and a minimal tank versus Heavy Pulse IIs and no tank! And just to keep this topic as factual as possible: Hurricane: Highs: 6x 220mm Vulcan AC II, 2x Medium NOS II Mids: 10mn MWD II, Medium Cap Booster II, Warp Disruptor II, Stasis Webifier II Lows: 2x Medium Armour Repairer II, 3x Active Hardener II, DC II DPS: 443 (With drones and t2 ammo) Speed: 227/1564 Resists: 74.5/65.6/71.3/75.1 Active Defense: 251/224 Fitting: 492/500 CPU, 1676/1687.5 PG Pros: No cap for guns, two nos to drain enemy cap to help repping, high resists, great tank, very high speed, free CPU and PG for versatility. Cons: Short range (negated by great speed). Harbinger (Hypothetical Fit): Highs: 7x Focussed Medium Puse II, Medium NOS II Mids: 10mn MWD II, Medium Cap Booster II, Warp Disruptor II, Stasis Webifier II Lows: 2x Medium Armour Repairer II, 3x Active Hardener II, DC II DPS: 477 (With drones and t2 ammo) Speed: 206/1356 Resists: 66/69.4/71.3/75.1 Active Defense: 241/148 Fitting: 520.25/468.75 CPU, 1713.6/1875 PG Pros: Slightly more DPS than the Hurricane (34) attained by medium drones rather than light drones, good resists, higher range. Cons: Lacks 51.5 CPU to make this setup possible, uses a hell of a lot of cap, nerfing the tank and DPS capabilities, only one NOS to help with running guns, EW, and tank, is slower than the Hurricane, cannot carry spare drones (Hurricane has 1 spare light drone), only does EM and Thermal damage, higher signature than the Hurricane. If we stop there and the hypothetical fit for the Harbinger actually did fit, the Harbinger would still be underpowered in comparison due to other cons. But let's take a look at a realistic fitting: Harbinger (Realistic Fit): Highs: 7x Focussed Medium Puse II, Medium Diminishing NOS Mids: 10mn MWD II, Medium Cap Booster II, Warp Disruptor II, Fleeting Webifier Lows: 2x Medium Armour Repairer II, 2x EANM II, DC II, CPR II DPS: 477 (With drones and t2 ammo) Speed: 206/1356 Resists: 76.9/52.8/56.6/62.4 Active Defense: 189/163 Fitting: 465.25/468.75 CPU, 1687.6/1875 PG Pros: Slightly more DPS than the Hurricane (34) attained by medium drones rather than light drones, higher range. Cons: Uses a hell of a lot of cap, nerfing the tank and DPS capabilities, only one NOS to help with running guns, EW, and tank, is slower than the Hurricane, cannot carry spare drones (Hurricane has 1 spare light drone), only does EM and Thermal damage, has much worse resists (omnitank, worstening Amarr setups again), no CPU spare for flexibility, more expensive (using Diminishing NOS and Fleeting Web), worse active defense than the Hurricane, higher signature than the Hurricane. I think you can agree with me here that there are a lot more cons than pros to the Harbinger compared with the Hurricane. YOU CAN'T EVEN FIT THE HARBINGER! THIS NEEDS SERIOUS ATTENTION! Latest Video, Click Here!

DanMck Amarr Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.14 16:24:00 - [351] Edited by: DanMck on 14/11/2007 16:24:48 i am totally amarr spec'd and i feel that pain this thread is well written and tbh if the devs don't think this is justified then we will all need to train another race as this is our last chance at a fair deal. em damage doesn't cut it! bring back the higher THERMAL damage we used to have on tech II crystals and please stop us capping out
Zolofine M34t p0p s1ckle Manufacturing Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:15:00 - [352] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Hrricane VS Harby argument The problem with the comparison is that the hurricane pulls the advantage because of the combination of racial speed proficiency, and high falloff AC's. Where as your harby needs to employ a MWD which hits the harby exactly where it hurts the most... cap balance and cpu fitting req. Gallente can get away with the MWD easier because it does not hit them quite so dead in the groin. That being said, from your comparison it seems obvious the the harby has sub par fitting power, and should be looked into. A minor tweak would probably be enough. I however still do not feel that your point applies to Amarr ships across the line. Many of the problems you've pointed out are not exclusive to Amarr ships. Gallente ships, which are most similar to Amarr ships share many of these problems. The need for MWD's limiting cap, the problems fitting crap all dps weaponry combined with a tank strong enough to survive. There is one advantage which some gallente ships however have, that Amarr generally do not... The use of drones to even out the DPS gap. Here is where Amarr fall behind, combined with drones, the scales tip to gallente... Yet that ONLY applies to those ships who are 'saved' by their drones. A megathron is one example that simply does not have this advantage. They are a ***** to fit, and active tanks are for most part impossible if you want to do any damage worth mentioning, if you want to have cap left after 1 minute. The hyperion shares much of the same problems, albeit being somewhat easier to fit. I'm not even going to bring up shield tanks, and the 'no cap needed' minmatar set-ups, the advantage is obvious here...(though not always 'i win'). You've made a good point here... There is a lot things that annoy me about specific Gallente ships (my spec) I am however, in general pleased with my spec, which is I guess more than you can say for Amarr spec. So attention to the subject may very well be required. I did not find your initial argument very convincing, because of the obvious flaws in reasoning there, however you have pointed out that atleast some of the Amarr ships require attention, and perhaps what is needed is a tweak across the line, I am however not convinced of that at this point, because if the answer were as easy as simply beefing lasers across the line, I think the devs would have already picked up on this. It's my opinion that the root of the problem is more complex than this.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr The Wild Hunt	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:39:00 - [353] I understand CCP's problem; They just have to overcook it a tiny little bit and all of a sudden Amarr is the pwnrace that melts faces allover again, think of it as the Heavy in TF2 when he fires his gun and the remarks he makes while doing it :) Also, switching the damagetype towards Thermal more will just make people fit active thermal resists, countering both Amarr as Gallente while Minnie is the laughing third. Although this would probably change tanking in several ways I don't even HOPE to understand or reason at this point. What should be done regardles of anything else is the whole cap thing; lower cap consumption on lasers and give them something that defines them as the cap race. I made a proposal on that a while ago; Make them somewhat immune to NOS/Neut. It doesn't make them overpowered as such but it DOES help against the cap problem. Thing is, and this is what ****es me off the most (and probably most other Amarr pilots) is that CCP has been saying for a while now that they acknowledge 'something' should be done while in effect every change they made so far is detriment to the Amarr situation, while it wasn't the Amarrian's fault for the nerf to be needed. They should just pick an idea and instead of trying to forecast how it pans out for 8 months just dump it on the forums, filter out the useful comments and then simply implement it while stating that this is a TESTING thing and that, in all probability, it will be changed again in 3 months, for better or for worse. Right now we feel neglected, which (to me) is worse than feeling gimp, I can live with not being the uberest pwnager of pwnage. I can't live with having the idea that no one cares about my situation. Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
Herschel Yamamoto	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:42:00 - [354] Nice data on the OP - always good to have numbers to back up assertions. I'm a Gallente specialist myself, but I'm still pro-balance. I'm not especially familiar with Amarr ships first-hand, but from some ****ing around on EFT and some asking Amarr friends, one possible micro-fix does present itself. Take the Apoc, probably the least useful of the Amarr battleships from what I've seen, and look at the laser setup that its bonuses are pushing it towards. A dual-repper setup with 8 large lasers will use about 80 cap/sec on tank and 20 cap/sec on guns(exact numbers depend on exact fit, but that's the rough values). In order to run the cap indefinitely, you need 100 cap/second, which is equivalent to 80 cap/second without the cap amount bonus on the ship. Now, delete the gun cap usage bonus, and upgrade the ship cap amount bonus to 10%/level. You're then regenerating 50% more than your 80/sec base value, or 120 cap/sec. Your guns are using twice as much, however, which puts you up to about 40/sec of gun use, or 120/sec total. If it runs in the first case, it'll run in the second. However, you've just freed up a bonus slot on this ship for something different. I'd suggest making it around the same sort of idea as the Scorpion, and making a battleship-sized pseudo-Recon ship, by giving it a nos/neut bonus - I'd suggest 10% nos/neut amount per level. All of a sudden, you've got a ship with effectively 12 battleship-sized neuts, and the capability to run them. I'm aware this this is a pure boost to this ship, and that it might be too powerful. Play with the numbers if you like, or change around the replacement bonus to something else Amarr-like instead. Hell, even bring back the pre-barge days and give it a mining bonus. But if we're looking to beef up those poor Amarr chumps some, this is at least an idea one could consider.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.14 20:16:00 - [355] /signed
Miz Cenuij Caldari Simply Smacktackular	Posted - 2007.11.14 23:14:00 - [356] Stinking Amarr filth. Stop whinning. Scum. "Men are going to die... and I'm going to kill them"
Miz Cenuij Caldari Simply Smacktackular	Posted - 2007.11.15 01:24:00 - [357] Inbred Amarians. if you spend less time sleeping with your sisters and more time developing proper Man size weapons (like smartbombs) then you woudnt be in the pickle you are in now. Slap head, robe wearing imbreeders 4tl. "Men are going to die... and I'm going to kill them"
SiJira	Posted - 2007.11.15 01:48:00 - [358] amarr rock you just need to know how to use them ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Kash Ka Amarr VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.15 02:03:00 - [359] Edited by: Kash Ka on 15/11/2007 02:05:23 /signed I have complained about how amarr suck in local and corp chat, but i never really could back up my points. Untill now thank you. I would also like to mention that amarr are ment to have some decent frigs, and i myself love to fly AF's because the amarr cruisers suck so bad. Every time i fight another cruiser in a AF i loose but isnt the AF ment to be able to take out cruisers i mean the HAC's can easily kill BS's, well the mimatar and gallente ones anyway. Amarr need to be looked at, decrease cap use, increase thermal dmg, decrease em resists on every ship or increase the bonuses, hell add new crystals that let us do more than just em and thermal. Please CCP give amarr a break! EDIT: typos ---------=================--------- I study the art of pew pew... boom!
Admiral Pelleon Caldari White Shadow Imperium Burning Horizons	Posted - 2007.11.15 02:30:00 - [360] Originally by: Kash Ka Edited by: Kash Ka on 15/11/2007 02:05:23 /signed I have complained about how amarr suck in local and corp chat, but i never really could back up my points. Untill now thank you. I would also like to mention that amarr are ment to have some decent frigs, and i myself love to fly AF's because the amarr cruisers suck so bad. Every time i fight another cruiser in a AF i loose but isnt the AF ment to be able to take out cruisers i mean the HAC's can easily kill BS's, well the mimatar and gallente ones anyway. Amarr need to be looked at, decrease cap use, increase thermal dmg, decrease em resists on every ship or increase the bonuses, hell add new crystals that let us do more than just em and thermal. Please CCP give amarr a break! EDIT: typos No AF will kill a cruiser pilot of equal competence. And the vengeance is leet, learn how to fly it. As is the malediction. ________ "It's a good day to die!"

RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.11.15 03:12:00 - [361] Originally by: Admiral Pelleon Originally by: Kash Ka Edited by: Kash Ka on 15/11/2007 02:05:23 /signed I have complained about how amarr suck in local and corp chat, but i never really could back up my points. Untill now thank you. I would also like to mention that amarr are ment to have some decent frigs, and i myself love to fly AF's because the amarr cruisers suck so bad. Every time i fight another cruiser in a AF i loose but isnt the AF ment to be able to take out cruisers i mean the HAC's can easily kill BS's, well the mimatar and gallente ones anyway. Amarr need to be looked at, decrease cap use, increase thermal dmg, decrease em resists on every ship or increase the bonuses, hell add new crystals that let us do more than just em and thermal. Please CCP give amarr a break! EDIT: typos No AF will kill a cruiser pilot of equal competence. And the vengeance is leet, learn how to fly it. As is the malediction. And the crusader.... Don't mess with Amarr interceptors
Sofring Eternus Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.15 07:35:00 - [362] Edited by: Sofring Eternus on 15/11/2007 07:37:04 Damage Control II Reactor Control Unit II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II Heat Sink II 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Medium Capacitor Booster II Heavy Pulse Laser II x7 Medium Nosferatu II Has 42k effective HP compared to the Hurricanes 40k Does 612 DPS compared to the Hurricanes 443 Optimal of 7.5km compared to Hurricanes 1.5km both have 5km falloff Would take the Harbinger 115s to kill Hurricane (repping adds another 20s or so) Would take the Hurricane 190s to kill Harbinger Edit: That was in response to post 354. --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ Amarr dont need Grr... and RAWR is definately too much, but some Oomph would be nice.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.11.15 07:39:00 - [363] Originally by: Sofring Eternus Edited by: Sofring Eternus on 15/11/2007 07:37:04 Damage Control II Reactor Control Unit II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II Heat Sink II 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Medium Capacitor Booster II Heavy Pulse Laser II x7 Medium Nosferatu II Has 42k effective HP compared to the Hurricanes 40k Does 612 DPS compared to the Hurricanes 443 Optimal of 7.5km compared to Hurricanes 1.5km both have 5km falloff Would take the Harbinger 115s to kill Hurricane (repping adds another 20s or so) Would take the Hurricane 190s to kill Harbinger Edit: That was in response to post 354. please add the base amor em resistance on the hurricane plus an active harderner, the all reisitances type. now do the same to the other damage type. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Gamer Maximus	Posted - 2007.11.15 08:13:00 - [364] Originally by: Sofring Eternus Edited by: Sofring Eternus on 15/11/2007 07:37:04 Damage Control II Reactor Control Unit II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II Heat Sink II 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Medium Capacitor Booster II Heavy Pulse Laser II x7 Medium Nosferatu II Has 42k effective HP compared to the Hurricanes 40k Does 612 DPS compared to the Hurricanes 443 Optimal of 7.5km compared to Hurricanes 1.5km both have 5km falloff Would take the Harbinger 115s to kill Hurricane (repping adds another 20s or so) Would take the Hurricane 190s to kill Harbinger Edit: That was in response to post 354. You need to take into account the other ships setup; what if you were webbed and the hurricane was loaded with Heavy Missles and Arty Cannons? How about the diffrence in speed cuasing a general lowering of DPS on the hurricane? Seriously people, take into account how the other ship is used before making points like this, as this is totaly irrelevent.
Khes	Posted - 2007.11.15 08:28:00 - [365] Thanks to OPs intital comparison, now we see that CALDARI need a DPS BOOST.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.15 08:47:00 - [366] Originally by: Sofring Eternus Edited by: Sofring Eternus on 15/11/2007 07:37:04 Damage Control II Reactor Control Unit II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II Heat Sink II 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Medium Capacitor Booster II Heavy Pulse Laser II x7 Medium Nosferatu II Has 42k effective HP compared to the Hurricanes 40k Does 612 DPS compared to the Hurricanes 443 Optimal of 7.5km compared to Hurricanes 1.5km both have 5km falloff Would take the Harbinger 115s to kill Hurricane (repping adds another 20s or so) Would take the Hurricane 190s to kill Harbinger Edit: That was in response to post 354. Is this a joke? 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Medium Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Medium Capacitor Booster II 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] 626 DPS, 45,000 hit points, a repair unit, STILL faster than that harbinger, better damage types, variable damage types, faster drones.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.15 10:07:00 - [367] Harbinger the worst tier2 BC. It is recognized even by those who does not see "amarr problem". Could someone compare tier1 BC or tier2-3 cruisers?
GoddessHekate	Posted - 2007.11.15 10:21:00 - [368] Nice DPS stats there but have you taken into account that Amarr do not have to reload? Every other race wastes 10 seconds reloading and the reactivation time every time the guns are empty, in which time the Amarr ships can fire off 1-2 more rounds.
Cursus Publicus Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.15 10:40:00 - [369] Even though I'm just starting the game, I've been sticking to amarrian ships and will stick to them in future too, despite seeing the slight differences already in frigates. The ship I'm interested in the most is the Providence freighter for the looks anyway. One thing confuses me though. I've always wondered about the damage crystals in the lasers of amarr ships. Sure, most of is is supposed to be electromagnetic but why the heck does infrared crystal have "EM damage slightly increased" when IR radiation is supposed to be pure thermal radiation for all that I know. Same thing with at least microwave and gamma radiation too. MW is basically supposed to accelerate the atoms it's affecting resulting in increased heat on the object, and gamma radiation ionizes target atoms (EM damage) but in the game they pretty much do the opposite things.
Hardin Amarr Mournival Holdings Mournival Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.15 11:14:00 - [370] Edited by: Hardin on 15/11/2007 11:16:30 I wasn't going to post this here as it's not an Amarrian problem but higher authorities think I should Stop the whining. Be Amarrian and be proud! Why choose Amarrian: Exclusivity - join EVE's most exclusive club EVE's coolest looking ships. The best pound for pound battleship in the game (Armageddon) EVE's coolest ship names -Damnation / Apoclaypse / Armageddon / Curse (wtf is a thorax after all?) The coolest people are Amarrian - Stavros / Sir Molle - to name just two The most powerful RP alliance in EVE is Amarrian (CVA) You can own slaves legally If you do get pwned you have a ready made excuse :p The oldest still active corp in EVE is Amarr only (PIE Inc.) Amarrians don't sleep - we wait. You get the chance to wear cool robes and hoods. One day the 'Reclaiming' will begin and then the heretics will be sorry. We haven't got an Emperor but we still rule half the galaxy. Suck on that slaves! Lasers rock and look pretty. Amarrians don't wear watches. We decide what time it is. Amarr Victor! ------------------------------

Lucre STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.15 11:22:00 - [371] Excellent analysis, and (as a mostly Amarr-spec'd Gallente!) signed with feeling. Sadly the only Amarr problem CCP seem to have got around to fixing in the last 2 years or so is finally allowing us to mention the Damnation here without censoring it every time! (I hope!)
Oki Riverson Amarr Pre-nerfed Tactics SOUL CARTEL	Posted - 2007.11.15 11:26:00 - [372] I'm Amarrian spec'd. And it feels completely inflexible. /me Signed.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.15 11:27:00 - [373] OP needs to rename thread "Amarr Internment Camp"
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.15 11:27:00 - [374] Originally by: PeacefullNub Harbinger the worst tier2 BC. It is recognized even by those who does not see "amarr problem". Could someone compare tier1 BC or tier2-3 cruisers? Actually the harby can readly be compared to the brutix, and you will find out that the harby is easier to fit, and that is about it... It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Lucre STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.15 11:29:00 - [375] Originally by: GoddessHekate Nice DPS stats there but have you taken into account that Amarr do not have to reload? Every other race wastes 10 seconds reloading and the reactivation time every time the guns are empty, in which time the Amarr ships can fire off 1-2 more rounds. I've seen this argument a lot over the years, but truth is that lasers have such lousy falloff that we probably spend more time changing crystals with changing range than other races spend reloading. (And no, it's not instantaneous either!) And any logistic advantage in not needing to carry ammo is probably more than counterbalanced by the extra cost (especially if the ship is lost) of one or more sets of crystals against a typical load of ammo.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.11.15 11:35:00 - [376] Originally by: Lucre Originally by: GoddessHekate Nice DPS stats there but have you taken into account that Amarr do not have to reload? Every other race wastes 10 seconds reloading and the reactivation time every time the guns are empty, in which time the Amarr ships can fire off 1-2 more rounds. I've seen this argument a lot over the years, but truth is that lasers have such lousy falloff that we probably spend more time changing crystals with changing range than other races spend reloading. (And no, it's not instantaneous either!) And any logistic advantage in not needing to carry ammo is probably more than counterbalanced by the extra cost (especially if the ship is lost) of one or more sets of crystals against a typical load of ammo. I always thought a nice boost to Amarr (and other races to a lesser extent) would be to include a 'Reload all with <ammotype>' function to the guns rightclick menu. This would mean Amarr can change crystals as fast as possible, so they can actually complete a switch quickly enough to keep up with the low falloff of lasers. It would make things MUCH better with regards to T2 crystals and that annoying bug where turrets STEAL crystals from eachother. Finally it would probably reduce lag because the server recieves one 'Reload all with <ammoType>' command instead of up to 8 individual reload requests. I suggested this idea several times on the game development forums, but it never recieved dev input. ============================================
Bentula	Posted - 2007.11.15 11:37:00 - [377] Edited by: Bentula on 15/11/2007 11:44:45 Originally by: Cursus Publicus Even though I'm just starting the game, I've been sticking to amarrian ships and will stick to them in future too, despite seeing the slight differences already in frigates. The ship I'm interested in the most is the Providence freighter for the looks anyway. One thing confuses me though. I've always wondered about the damage crystals in the lasers of amarr ships. Sure, most of is is supposed to be electromagnetic but why the heck does infrared crystal have "EM damage slightly increased" when IR radiation is supposed to be pure thermal radiation for all that I know. Same thing with at least microwave and gamma radiation too. MW is basically supposed to accelerate the atoms it's affecting resulting in increased heat on the object, and gamma radiation ionizes target atoms (EM damage) but in the game they pretty much do the opposite things. If we go by logik lasers should deal explosive damage. Cause you know, they heat a small area up in a very fast way, one could even say they turn that area into a plasma. Things that heat up expand, and if something that is surrounded by solid matter starts to expand very fast ... that is called a explosion, and a ugly one at that due to the debris of the solid matter rapidly advancing away from the center of the area the expansion started. P.S. No you cant reproduce that effect with a magnifying glass and some sunshine . Edit: But an egg and a microwave ... that should illustrate the point somewhat.
Brianna Talnor	Posted - 2007.11.15 11:42:00 - [378] Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 15/11/2007 11:40:03 Originally by: Lucre Originally by: GoddessHekate Nice DPS stats there but have you taken into account that Amarr do not have to reload? Every other race wastes 10 seconds reloading and the reactivation time every time the guns are empty, in which time the Amarr ships can fire off 1-2 more rounds. I've seen this argument a lot over the years, but truth is that lasers have such lousy falloff that we probably spend more time changing crystals with changing range than other races spend reloading. (And no, it's not instantaneous either!) And any logistic advantage in not needing to carry ammo is probably more than counterbalanced by the extra cost (especially if the ship is lost) of one or more sets of crystals against a typical load of ammo. I always thought a nice boost to Amarr (and other races to a lesser extent) would be to include a 'Reload all with <ammotype>' function to the guns rightclick menu. This would mean Amarr can change crystals as fast as possible, so they can actually complete a switch quickly enough to keep up with the low falloff of lasers. It would make things MUCH better with regards to T2 crystals and that annoying bug where turrets STEAL crystals from eachother. Finally it would probably reduce lag because the server recieves one 'Reload all with <ammoType>' command instead of up to 8 individual reload requests. I suggested this idea several times on the game development forums, but it never recieved dev input. EDIT: Found some linkage to my posts: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=505299 I also had an idea about module grouping, I think CCP might be bringing something like this in, not sure. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=542094 I may be way off but reloading all ammo at once is coming in the next expansion. I swear I read it in a dev post.
BobMoo22 Yarrrateers	Posted - 2007.11.15 11:43:00 - [379] I stopped reading after I saw that you calculated the dps of the hype with 3 Mag Stabs. The hype has a total of 6 lowslots. Filling up half of those with mag stabs is simply ********. Sure, your arguments look good on paper, but they would get popped in half a second in actual combat.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.11.15 11:45:00 - [380] Originally by: Brianna Talnor I may be way off but reloading all ammo at once is coming in the next expansion. I swear I read it in a dev post. Yeah I think they are bringing in module grouping. But maybe we should remind them about it incase they 'forget'... ============================================ Reload all with <AmmoType>

Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.15 12:46:00 - [381] Let's not forget that the Amarr are still waiting after over four years for their sixth T1 frigate. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
NoobALTS	Posted - 2007.11.15 12:54:00 - [382] Edited by: NoobALTS on 15/11/2007 12:54:55 Originally by: Rodj Blake Let's not forget that the Amarr are still waiting after over four years for their sixth T1 frigate. Well, I guess that could be proof that whoever designed Amarr could not be bothered to finish them!
Hydrogen Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.15 13:05:00 - [383] /signed Had fun reading some of those replies here... __ - click here -
Sofring Eternus Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.15 13:27:00 - [384] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Sofring Eternus ... please add the base amor em resistance on the hurricane plus an active harderner, the all reisitances type. now do the same to the other damage type. Like I said, I was using the setups provided in the previous post, which used 3 active hardners for KIN/THR/EXP. And there is no such thing as an all resistances active armor hardner. The kill time I provided assumes 75% resist for the Hurricane against all Harbinger damage (when the shield and the hull will actually have less). The kill time for the Hurricane assumed only 50% resist for all the Harbinger hitpoints.(again, shield will have more EXP resist, and hull will have 60% from DCUII) Originally by: Gamer Maximus Originally by: Sofring Eternus ... You need to take into account the other ships setup; what if you were webbed and the hurricane was loaded with Heavy Missles and Arty Cannons? How about the diffrence in speed cuasing a general lowering of DPS on the hurricane? Seriously people, take into account how the other ship is used before making points like this, as this is totaly irrelevent. I did take into account the other ships setup. They key parts about optimal and falloff mean if the Harbinger can keep the Hurricane at 10km then it will severely reduce incoming damage since that puts the Hurricane at almost double falloff (reducing DPS to 25% of EFT), while only half falloff for the Harbinger (reducing DPS to 75% of EFT). @Goumindong Yes I know there are better setups, and I'm pretty sure you can figure out a better fit than I can most any day of the week. It just annoyed me that the Harbinger was setup for dual reps, when that really isnt feasable for Amarr ships, they just dont have the spare cap to run them. Dual reps are for ships with rep bonus or capless weapons (drones/missiles/projectiles) IMO. --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ Amarr dont need Grr... and RAWR is definately too much, but some Oomph would be nice.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.11.15 14:32:00 - [385] Originally by: Rodj Blake Let's not forget that the Amarr are still waiting after over four years for their sixth T1 frigate. Yes and lets not forget about the awesome skinning job done on the Apoc. I wonder if the Trinity Apoc still retains that 'feature'. Not that anyone will notice; nobody uses Apoc's. Overall Amarr feel a bit forgotten, a little neglected. Bit of a polish, a minor tweak here and there, might be fit for public consumption ============================================ Reload all with <AmmoType>
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God O X I D E	Posted - 2007.11.15 14:48:00 - [386] /signed The Devs are escaped Minmatar refugees or something... Why the hate? BTW, to people who point out about the Malediction/Vengueance (bah, all Khanid ships), they are not Amarr, they are Khanid, lol (sorry, had to say it) Jokes aside, those ships don`t rely on lasers, thus they don`t suck! Had I known Khanids were going to rely on missiles, I would have trained some when I started the game! CCP totally hates Amarr, dude.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.15 15:39:00 - [387] Originally by: Sofring Eternus Edited by: Sofring Eternus on 15/11/2007 07:37:04 Damage Control II Reactor Control Unit II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II Heat Sink II 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Medium Capacitor Booster II Heavy Pulse Laser II x7 Medium Nosferatu II Has 42k effective HP compared to the Hurricanes 40k Does 612 DPS compared to the Hurricanes 443 Optimal of 7.5km compared to Hurricanes 1.5km both have 5km falloff Would take the Harbinger 115s to kill Hurricane (repping adds another 20s or so) Would take the Hurricane 190s to kill Harbinger Edit: That was in response to post 354. That's comparing a gank setup with a tank setup. The following is a good Hurricane gank setup: Highs: 6x 425mm AC II Mids: 10mn MWD II, Medium Cap Booster II, Warp Disruptor II, Stasis Webifier II Lows: 2x Gyro II, 2x EANM II, DC II, 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plate DPS: 621 (With drones and t2 ammo) Speed: 227/1382 Resists: 85/67.6/62.6/55.1 Armour Hitpoints: 12221 Effective Total Hitpoints: 58,259 Fitting: 451.5/500 CPU, 1668.6/1687.5 PG Pros: More effective hitpoints, higher resists, higher DPS, no cap needed for guns, loads of free CPU, still faster than the Harbinger. Cons: Less range (negated by higher speed), omni-tank worstens Amarr (a pro for the ship, but a con for Amarr). You can also swap the 1600 plate for an 800, giving 49,356 effective hitpoints (still WAY more than the Harbinger), and put on a medium NOS. Similarly, if you take the plate off altogether and change the EANMs to active hardeners (making the lows: 2x Gyro II, 3x Active Hardener II, DC II), you get 43,301 effective hitpoints (STILL more than the Harbinger), allowing you to fit two medium Diminishing NOS, putting the cap-drain power above that of the Harbinger as well. So this way, the Hurricane has more hitpoints, a higher DPS, more NOS power, better resists, and no cap need for guns, compared to the Harbinger which is worse on every single account. Also, with a gank Hurricane, the only things that needs cap are the MWD, Scrambler, Webifier, and Hardeners (if you choose that setup)... If you so choose, you can drop the cap booster for another EW mod. More versatility, where the Harbinger has none. Latest Video, Click Here!
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.15 16:24:00 - [388] Originally by: Rodj Blake Let's not forget that the Amarr are still waiting after over four years for their sixth T1 frigate. My God, that's nearly as long as they have been waiting for their new Emperor. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
RisenPhoenix Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.15 17:33:00 - [389] /signed ------------------------------------------------
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.15 20:10:00 - [390] "Let's not forget that the Amarr are still waiting after over four years for their sixth T1 frigate." Whell - after four years i think we deserve tier4 BS or at least tier4 BC. About Khanid MC2 - they are not amarr ships - as someone sayed - no amarr without lasershow :) If we whant missiles - we will play caldary. For me this "boost" nefred unique amarr style for 2/3 of t2 ships. it is an example of "bad fixing" - instead of fixing lasers and laser related ship bonuses they just remove lasers from t2 ships

Haradgrim Caldari The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.11.15 20:29:00 - [391] Felysta, I would love to see an analysis of why Caldari are better in any respect than amar with the exception of the Flycatcher and Crow? I'm not saying that to troll, all I mean to illustrate is that there are two "have" races in EVE and there are two "have-not" races, the only differences is Caldari can mission run really well (and in my opinion the arguement that a specific race was meant specifically for PVE or that it would be a sufficient advantage is rediculously idioctic IMHO) All this thread proved to me is that Amarr are the second worst off race in EVE (PVP wise) I can't remember who it is but there is someone who has a sig that I thought sums it up best: (this is a close aproximation at best:) EVE Online: Gallente for PWN online Minmatar for PVP online Caldari for PVE online Amarr for LULZ online. Your signature exceeds the byte me limit allowed on the forums-Darth Patches Oh Noes!
NoobALTS	Posted - 2007.11.15 20:35:00 - [392] Originally by: PeacefullNub If we whant missiles - we will play caldary. For me this "boost" nefred unique amarr style for 2/3 of t2 ships. it is an example of "bad fixing" - instead of fixing lasers and laser related ship bonuses they just remove lasers from t2 ships CCP are never going to fix their goddam Lasers. Thankfully missiles take only a couple of weeks to train up to a reasonable value. Now I think that they should turn ships such as the apoc into a torp boat, and get rid of useless weapons such as lasers once and forall and refund the lost SP back to amarr players
DroneBay Diva Kandor Fleet Systems VENOM Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.16 09:54:00 - [393] Originally by: NoobALTS Originally by: PeacefullNub If we whant missiles - we will play caldary. For me this "boost" nefred unique amarr style for 2/3 of t2 ships. it is an example of "bad fixing" - instead of fixing lasers and laser related ship bonuses they just remove lasers from t2 ships CCP are never going to fix their goddam Lasers. Thankfully missiles take only a couple of weeks to train up to a reasonable value. Now I think that they should turn ships such as the apoc into a torp boat, and get rid of useless weapons such as lasers once and forall and refund the lost SP back to amarr players This seems likely to happen But still....I'm at 20m SP currently, all of it Gallente spec'd, and I'll agree that CCP needs to do something to fix Amarr ships. And forcing Amarr pilots to train a 2nd weapons system in order to be able to effectively fly half of their t2 ships was pretty dumb...
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.16 10:16:00 - [394] This thread made me sad. The answer to empire ganking
Torco	Posted - 2007.11.16 12:53:00 - [395] Edited by: Torco on 16/11/2007 12:53:19 mhhh I dont know if the DEVS recognize that EVE-Players actually care much more about balancing issues than ambulation or other cosmetic stuff. I think this thread should be a proof. Why for gods sake are you not going to change anything on those beautiful amarr ships? I dont get it. sigh
Formulka	Posted - 2007.11.16 13:20:00 - [396] maybe they are letting all amarr laser ships suck, even the new ones just because there is some major buff comming for lasers and they dont want so many overpowered ships afer that buff (well most likely not, but its the only reasonable excuse for all that ignorance from DEVs)
NoobALTS	Posted - 2007.11.16 13:26:00 - [397] Edited by: NoobALTS on 16/11/2007 13:26:17 Originally by: Formulka maybe they are letting all amarr laser ships suck, even the new ones just because there is some major buff comming for lasers and they dont want so many overpowered ships afer that buff (well most likely not, but its the only reasonable excuse for all that ignorance from DEVs) Well, I think it is because the whole concept of Lasers is broken, and nobody can be bothered to fix it. The strange thing is, Amarr BS's are very balanced if you use Minmatar weapons on them and if the ship bonus's were changed to Projectile bonus's, then Amarr would be a on a par with other races
Min Seong Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.11.16 14:02:00 - [398] This thread makes me sad. I wish CCP would reply to this thread with thier plan for balancing Amarr.
Alexace Gallente Bright New Dawn Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.11.16 14:58:00 - [399] Lasers are broke, please fix them, and the rest of the Amarr line. Fix laser cap use, then give us a "real" second bonus. BOOST AMARR!!!!!!!!!!!
Khes	Posted - 2007.11.16 15:24:00 - [400] Originally by: Haradgrim Felysta, I would love to see an analysis of why Caldari are better in any respect than amar with the exception of the Flycatcher and Crow? I'm not saying that to troll, all I mean to illustrate is that there are two "have" races in EVE and there are two "have-not" races, the only differences is Caldari can mission run really well (and in my opinion the arguement that a specific race was meant specifically for PVE or that it would be a sufficient advantage is rediculously idioctic IMHO) All this thread proved to me is that Amarr are the second worst off race in EVE (PVP wise) /signed

shinsushi	Posted - 2007.11.16 22:12:00 - [401] Edited by: shinsushi on 16/11/2007 22:13:18 Why is this thread dying anyway?? oh, needs fuel. OK.. How about this. After one year of whining, we got this reply: Originally by: Tuxford 9 months ago For me there are number of problems that plague Amarr.....omni tank.....we might consider fiddling with base resistances....beams are too hard to fit....General ship loving....cruisers aren't really.....Apocalypse might get a bit of a role twist Then this: Originally by: Fendahl 5 months ago tracking on Pulse Lasers has been increased by 25%...........the power need of Medium Beam lasers have been reduced (from 16mw to 13mw for Tech 2)............rmor hardeners have been decreased (from 44tf to 36tf for Tech 2) and Energized Adaptive Nano Membranes have been increased (from 30tf to 36tf for Tech 2) The pulse boost worked, the rest didn't do a whole lot, and didn't address tuxfords issues. Then we got Khanid mark II..... thats all that has been done for amarr in the last 2 YEARS!!!! An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.11.16 22:21:00 - [402] Edited by: shinsushi on 16/11/2007 22:22:15 Time for a little more fuel... Oh right, so whats the problem with amarr now? Lets ask the devs. Originally by: CCP Nozh in reference to the pilgrim/curse Weren't the Amarr recons "the flavour of the month" after RMR? Personally I don't think Amarr are "gimped", I fly a lot of Amarr ships myself, they are however lacking something. Originally by: CCP Zulupark I fly the Curse and the Pilgrim myself. I think the Curse is a damn fine PVP ship (I'd show you some pretty cool killmails if I could). The Pilgrim however might need some loving, especially in regards to the range it's doomed to fight at. But on the other hand, you have to realize that all the similar recons for the other races (falcon, arazu and rapier) have next to no damage output and are pretty useless solo. Curse is fine??? yeah right. Oh, and the other recons can effect multiple ships with good EW/abilities from quite a long range. Originally by: CCP zulupark Note that we have at no point sat down and said "lets tinker with Amarr Originally by: CCP Zulupark I still think that the root of the problem is omni tanking and high natural EM resistances. So there you have it, according to the devs, omni-tanking is the problem, somehow the apoc and the cruisers became fine, the pilgrim/curse are fine, and some type of magical oomph that hasn't been discussed in more than 9 months is to be instituted. Let me say that again, they haven't even sat down to mess with amarr in 9 months, even though Tuxford said they would. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Dextrius Gallente ironwood ink	Posted - 2007.11.17 02:23:00 - [403] /signed Ruin EVE? Some Goonswarm members gloat, destroy EVE Online
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.17 07:13:00 - [404] Originally by: CCP Zulupark "I fly the Curse and the Pilgrim myself. I think the Curse is a damn fine PVP ship (I'd show you some pretty cool killmails if I could). The Pilgrim however might need some loving, especially in regards to the range it's doomed to fight at. But on the other hand, you have to realize that all the similar recons for the other races (falcon, arazu and rapier) have next to no damage output and are pretty useless solo." OMG - he flyed curse. Of course "is a damn fine PVP ship" at least was before nosf nefr. He flyed 1 of 3 amarr DRONE cruisers - and now all amarrs have no problem - and lasers have no problem - and real second ship bonus exists. I just understand why amarrs are still unfixed.... We all doomed
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.11.17 07:31:00 - [405] Quite clear that the best Amarr ships are Khanid Mk II - missiles, and Curse/Pilgrim - drones, although Curse/Pilgrim were hit hard by a nerfbat, they are still stand out of the line of other Amarr vessels. That says a lot about laser balancing issues. Press alt+F4 to reduce lag
Chronos VIII Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.17 09:35:00 - [406] People like Felysta should work for CCP tbfh. Not the muppets they have atm - e.g. the people workin on balancing.It must have taken ages to write this stuff down. Really good stuff /signed Now ccp start to play the game, and dont play games. (sry couldnt resist ) Chronos
d'hofren Malicious Intentions Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.17 09:37:00 - [407] Nice post, just one thing tho. The Phoon tank is based around a dual lar setup, very uncommon, you just don't have the cpu to run it, not the grid to fit anything else once they are on the ship... The mael tank is based around dual boost amps, so is boosting un resisted, very limited tank life so quite unlikely. Bar that very very very good post
NoobALTS	Posted - 2007.11.17 09:41:00 - [408] Originally by: shinsushi Let me say that again, they haven't even sat down to mess with amarr in 9 months, even though Tuxford said they would. While I understand that if CCP say that they will look at Amarr, they could take a year to put changes through due to planning/balancing etc. And the fact they, over 9 months ago, stated that they would do some work on Amarr and so far have not even sat down is just plain nuts. Meh, time to train Gallente, since I am pretty sure that at this rate, it will be 2-3 years before Amarr get fixed. Bit like it took 2 years to fix Minmatar.
Ashen Wraith	Posted - 2007.11.17 10:01:00 - [409] /signed
SiJira	Posted - 2007.11.17 14:34:00 - [410] amarr are balanced you just need to know what to do with them ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem

Lisento Slaven Amarr Capitalism Amuck	Posted - 2007.11.17 15:19:00 - [411] Originally by: SiJira amarr are balanced you just need to know what to do with them This is entirely true. What you need to do with them is use the armageddon, abaddon, harbinger, absolution, or sacrilege. There you go...that's how to play as Amarr =P --- Put in space whales!
NoobALTS	Posted - 2007.11.17 15:25:00 - [412] Edited by: NoobALTS on 17/11/2007 15:25:53 Originally by: Lisento Slaven Originally by: SiJira amarr are balanced you just need to know what to do with them This is entirely true. What you need to do with them is use the armageddon, abaddon, harbinger, absolution, or sacrilege. There you go...that's how to play as Amarr =P However, Granted that the Abaddon gives the Retrever a run for its money, a Covetor tends to do better than any of those ships you mentioned. The only exception is Sacreledge, which is the only competitive ship Amarr have now that the curse/pilgrim got nerfed into oblivian
SecondChance	Posted - 2007.11.17 15:33:00 - [413] Originally by: SiJira amarr are balanced you just need to know what to do with them Whell -if it is a balance of style and design vs ingame effectivnes... i agree - from that poin we ballanced.At least that is one point why someone still playing amarrs
Aindrias Amarr Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2007.11.17 16:37:00 - [414] Edited by: Aindrias on 17/11/2007 16:38:05 /SIGNED edit: Balance is NOT making everything the same. It's making the positives and negatives of the races equally good and equally detrimental respectively.
Archangel Sierra Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.17 16:42:00 - [415] Edited by: Archangel Sierra on 17/11/2007 16:45:19 I had a look at wikipedia's page on EM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation So, we have all these crystals that cover most of the spectrum of EM radiation..but they don't do anything differently, or than various ranges and colors, with small variance betweeen em and thermal. Lasers aren't implemented in eve as what they are, radiation. Instead, lasers are treated like every other weapons system in-game, a gun with bullets. Radiation weapons should have different effects on opponents when used; it's not just straight-up damage. There should be different damage effects added to those who are hit with a laser weapon. 1) Add a way of shielding any given ship from different types of radiation. It could be an additional rig slot, implants, a type of booster, maybe not a module, unless every ship gets an additional mod slot for this purpose. 2) Radiation damage to unshielded/poorly shielded ships. this could be any number of things, all kinds of different effects could be implemented. Again, it's not just one thing hitting another, with radiation, the damage is internal, not just external. I urge everyone to be creative with their imagination on this point, as far as what specifically would happen without radiation shielding on a ship. 3) Radiation sickness for pod pilots, countered by boosters, or another item. In SWG(I know, I know) there are all kinds of different foods,/drinks that give various bonuses. In eve, we have boosters, but they're hard to get for most. Introduce a readily available item on the market to cure radiation sickness, or to shield you from it. I've not been playing for a long time, so I'm short on specifics, but I submit this idea to you, the community, for refinement, improvement, or to be laughed off the forums. /discuss
Reginald Rartan	Posted - 2007.11.17 17:00:00 - [416] /Signed 60 bill isk up for grasp. Are you ready?
adriaans Amarr Advanced Capital Ship Designs	Posted - 2007.11.17 19:11:00 - [417] Edited by: adriaans on 17/11/2007 19:16:54 I would like to refer you to my thread where i have some SOLUTIONS! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=637960&page=1 link (if it works)(it works! :D) I believe it covers a solution that has not been suggested yet. --sig-- Knowledge is power!
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.17 19:20:00 - [418] As someone who remembers muraken's 100 page Amarr thread 10 months ago (which got locked by a mod eventually) I would like to say that if CCP can realease a devblog on what they are planning to do with Amarr, it would be much appriciated. You dont have to give detials, or any commitmints. Just tell us you are planning to review Amarr. Thanks -- Billion Isk Mission
Cygnus Zhada Amarr The Wild Hunt	Posted - 2007.11.17 19:22:00 - [419] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 17/11/2007 19:22:28 Originally by: Lord WarATron As someone who remembers muraken's 100 page Amarr thread 10 months ago (which got locked by a mod eventually) I would like to say that if CCP can realease a devblog on what they are planning to do with Amarr, it would be much appriciated. You dont have to give detials, or any commitmints. Just tell us you are planning to review Amarr. Thanks One dev said 2 things a few days ago; 1) "something" isn't right with Amarr 2) "we haven't really worked on it yet" Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.17 20:35:00 - [420] Another portion of solutions - just dreaming :) Firstly - removing "-laser cap use" and giving real second bonus, so that u can fly and shoot without 4-5 lvl of ship. many topic readers agreed that we need this boost just to stay in line with another racial ships. 1)new pulse lasers tactics - rapid fire weapon low to med range a)-50% damdgemod -50% rof (same dps - but greater speed and cap use) b)-120% capasitor use per shot (-50% to balance ship bonus - 50% to balance increased cap consumption, -20 minior boost). c)-25% weapon signature resolution (better tracking vs smaller targets) d)slightly reduced optimal and increased fallof (but opt+2fallof still same as today) 2)new beam lasers tactics - slow med to long range weapon a)+60% damagemod +60% rof (same dps, best instant damage, -60% cap usage - still greater than rails) b)slightly increased optimal and greatly (to lvl of pulses)decreased fallof (greater boost from track comp - but shoter randge without it) c)and some fixes in t2 pulse/beam crystalls (according new rof and optimal)

bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.11.17 21:24:00 - [421] Originally by: PeacefullNub Another portion of solutions - just dreaming :) Firstly - removing "-laser cap use" and giving real second bonus, so that u can fly and shoot without 4-5 lvl of ship. many topic readers agreed that we need this boost just to stay in line with another racial ships. 1)new pulse lasers tactics - rapid fire weapon low to med range a)-50% damdgemod -50% rof (same dps - but greater speed and cap use) b)-120% capasitor use per shot (-50% to balance ship bonus - 50% to balance increased cap consumption, -20 minior boost). c)-25% weapon signature resolution (better tracking vs smaller targets) d)slightly reduced optimal and increased fallof (but opt+2fallof still same as today) 2)new beam lasers tactics - slow med to long range weapon a)+60% damagemod +60% rof (same dps, best instant damage, -60% cap usage - still greater than rails) b)slightly increased optimal and greatly (to lvl of pulses)decreased fallof (greater boost from track comp - but shoter randge without it) c)and some fixes in t2 pulse/beam crystalls (according new rof and optimal) Easier Fix. 1. Unnerf the prenerfed Armour Compensation Skills so they effect active hardners as well. People will switch back to active setups insted of EANM. Laser damage back to pre-Red Moon Rising expantion balance. 2. Remove useless Overnerf on laser fittings & Cap usage 3. Change lasers to be competitive in todays PvP - I.E Close range or long range. --SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.17 21:35:00 - [422] You keep saying that, and it keeps being stupid. It would break the game.
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.11.17 21:39:00 - [423] Edited by: bloomich on 17/11/2007 21:40:00 Originally by: Goumindong You keep saying that, and it keeps being stupid. It would break the game. I say it because it is correct. before compensation skills, EANM was never a problem. Only After compensation skills EAMN became a problem. So insted of unnerfing compensation skills so people use the pre-rmr setups (that laser damage WAS balanced with) we have this half-assed EAMN logic going on. Lets nerf EAMN or boost Lasers etc insted of fixing the problem which was Compensation skills. A bit like saying the car is broken because there is no petrol in the tank. --SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that.
Pinpisa Jormao	Posted - 2007.11.17 21:52:00 - [424] Signed and Amarr T1 CRUISERS also need work. I started Amarr and am now Minmatar/Gallente spec because the only good Amarr ship is the Revelation.
NoobALTS	Posted - 2007.11.17 23:25:00 - [425] Originally by: Pinpisa Jormao Signed and Amarr T1 CRUISERS also need work. I started Amarr and am now Minmatar/Gallente spec because the only good Amarr ship is the Revelation. All Amarr ships need work. The only exception are Revelation - Because all it is good for is shooting pos! It misses a freightor orbiting it! lol Sacreldge - Because ccp fixed it TO NOT USE LASERS! Malediction - As above Heretic - As above, but will be the first ship killed in any combat because its a dictor so stats do not matter much. Avatar - Well, only the cap bonus makes this decent, otherwise slot layots of other titans are far better. All the rest of Amarr ships, especially those that use broken lasers, need to be fixed asap.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.11.18 00:41:00 - [426] Originally by: SecondChance Originally by: SiJira amarr are balanced you just need to know what to do with them Whell -if it is a balance of style and design vs ingame effectivnes... i agree - from that poin we ballanced.At least that is one point why someone still playing amarrs Originally by: Lisento Slaven Originally by: SiJira amarr are balanced you just need to know what to do with them This is entirely true. What you need to do with them is use the armageddon, abaddon, harbinger, absolution, or sacrilege. There you go...that's how to play as Amarr =P oh you guys are hilarious ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Ivanna Logoffski	Posted - 2007.11.18 01:02:00 - [427] Originally by: NoobALTS All Amarr ships need work. The only exception are Revelation - Because all it is good for is shooting pos! It misses a freightor orbiting it! lol Sacreldge - Because ccp fixed it TO NOT USE LASERS! Malediction - As above Heretic - As above, but will be the first ship killed in any combat because its a dictor so stats do not matter much. Avatar - Well, only the cap bonus makes this decent, otherwise slot layots of other titans are far better. All the rest of Amarr ships, especially those that use broken lasers, need to be fixed asap. Just fit Artillery or Autocannons on them and you have insane amount of cap left to run a tank.. Stop whining and think instead.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.18 06:23:00 - [428] Originally by: Ivanna Logoffski Just fit Artillery or Autocannons on them and you have insane amount of cap left to run a tank.. Stop whining and think instead. Brothers! I see the light! We must forget about ship bonuses compleatly and use another weapons. NO! We must forget about our ships and cross-train another race! Wait a minute - it is what we doing allready. "Stop whining and think instead" Dissmissed.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.18 08:55:00 - [429] Originally by: bloomich Edited by: bloomich on 17/11/2007 21:40:00 Originally by: Goumindong You keep saying that, and it keeps being stupid. It would break the game. I say it because it is correct. before compensation skills, EANM was never a problem. Only After compensation skills EAMN became a problem. So insted of unnerfing compensation skills so people use the pre-rmr setups (that laser damage WAS balanced with) we have this half-assed EAMN logic going on. Lets nerf EAMN or boost Lasers etc insted of fixing the problem which was Compensation skills. A bit like saying the car is broken because there is no petrol in the tank. You want to see 37.5% invulns as the base? You want specific hardeners to be 68.75%? It would break the game
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.11.18 09:41:00 - [430] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: bloomich Edited by: bloomich on 17/11/2007 21:40:00 Originally by: Goumindong You keep saying that, and it keeps being stupid. It would break the game. I say it because it is correct. before compensation skills, EANM was never a problem. Only After compensation skills EAMN became a problem. So insted of unnerfing compensation skills so people use the pre-rmr setups (that laser damage WAS balanced with) we have this half-assed EAMN logic going on. Lets nerf EAMN or boost Lasers etc insted of fixing the problem which was Compensation skills. A bit like saying the car is broken because there is no petrol in the tank. You want to see 37.5% invulns as the base? You want specific hardeners to be 68.75%? It would break the game Modules will break the game? Do 64% core-x mods that exist currently break the game? Would it would break the game like Armour compensation skills did? How about removing Armour compensation skills altogether and then people will go back to active setups. Then Amarr Laser damage will be balanced. You are the type of person who would have said CCC rigs would have broke the game before they were introduced. Boosting Armour compensation skills to effect active hardners fix's Laser damage overnight, as active hardners become more valuble again insted of EANM. Look at pre- red moon rising expantion pack. EAMN's were almost never used, perhaps as a filler to the last slot. Then Armour compensation skills boosted EANM to epic proportions, thus breaking Amarr lasers and EM as a viable damagetype. T2 Ammo came in and meant that people could snipe at long ranges without filling their lows with 4+ tracking enhancers and hence the plated snipers were born which further made Amarr lasers less efficient. --SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that.

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.18 10:36:00 - [431] A lot of things happened in red moon that changed the way lasers performed, EANMs arent that big of a deal. But yes, having easily available 69% hardeners and 37.5% invluns would break the game. Blasters and Autocannons would become worthless overnight.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.18 11:09:00 - [432] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: bloomich Edited by: bloomich on 17/11/2007 21:40:00 Originally by: Goumindong You keep saying that, and it keeps being stupid. It would break the game. I say it because it is correct. before compensation skills, EANM was never a problem. Only After compensation skills EAMN became a problem. So insted of unnerfing compensation skills so people use the pre-rmr setups (that laser damage WAS balanced with) we have this half-assed EAMN logic going on. Lets nerf EAMN or boost Lasers etc insted of fixing the problem which was Compensation skills. A bit like saying the car is broken because there is no petrol in the tank. You want to see 37.5% invulns as the base? You want specific hardeners to be 68.75%? It would break the game Well, no where he said the percentage bonus must be the same :) T2 HArdeners reachign 60% would probably "solve the issue" If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Tarron Sarek Gallente Endica Enterprises Alternative Realities	Posted - 2007.11.18 11:10:00 - [433] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 18/11/2007 11:15:24 Originally by: Bellum Eternus I read through it all. You're doing it wrong. Stop playing Eve in EFT and start playing Eve on TQ. All of your theoretical maximums and paper analysis is completely useless and has no validity. You're forcing each ship to use theoretical setups in order to establish a 'baseline' that is fictional and unrealistic. Each ship will be fit/tuned to it's specific strengths and weaknesses. Again, your theories are invalid and without basis. Exactly my thoughts. While I agree that Amarr needs some boost, I doubt that comparing rather unrealistic extremes is the right way. It would be better to compare actual working setups instead of theoretical maximums or single aspects. One example that illustrates the problem: if ship A can have more maximum DPS or a better tank than ship B, that still doesn't mean that ship A is better. In a well rounded setup ship B might even be stronger. Edit: stupid typo.. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.18 11:25:00 - [434] Originally by: Tarron Sarek While I agree that Amarr needs some boost, I doubt that comparing rather unrealistic extremes is the right way. It would be better to compare actual working setups instead of theoretical maximums or single aspects. One example that illustrates the problem: if ship A can have more maximum DPS or a better tank than ship B, that still doesn't mean that ship A is better. In a well rounded setup ship B might even be stronger. Well said. It's not so much that 'amarr' needs a few tweaks so much as lasers in general do. With better fittings, cap usage that didn't come pre nerfed, you'd start to see more people using them in general, which would be a great thing. Then amarr ships would just need a proper bonus instead of laser cap usage, and everyone wins. I could see the potential for some other small tweaks, but one step at a time.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.18 11:26:00 - [435] Edited by: Goumindong on 18/11/2007 11:31:08 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: bloomich Edited by: bloomich on 17/11/2007 21:40:00 Originally by: Goumindong You keep saying that, and it keeps being stupid. It would break the game. I say it because it is correct. before compensation skills, EANM was never a problem. Only After compensation skills EAMN became a problem. So insted of unnerfing compensation skills so people use the pre-rmr setups (that laser damage WAS balanced with) we have this half-assed EAMN logic going on. Lets nerf EAMN or boost Lasers etc insted of fixing the problem which was Compensation skills. A bit like saying the car is broken because there is no petrol in the tank. You want to see 37.5% invulns as the base? You want specific hardeners to be 68.75%? It would break the game Well, no where he said the percentage bonus must be the same :) T2 HArdeners reachign 60% would probably "solve the issue" And what do you do for invluns? ed: this is even accepting that there "is an issue" with omni tanks as they currently stand, which i really dont think there is. There should be avantages and disadvantages to fitting onmi tanks and not just "the tri-hardened tank is better" or "the omni-tank is better". The only real problem right now is that omni tanks are easier to fit. And that is about it. I mean, right now, Amarran battleships are in about the right spot for where they need to be. Such a change would break them in order to fix the battlecruisers and below, many of which still wouldnt be fixed.
Dalwin	Posted - 2007.11.18 15:30:00 - [436] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Also, please stop claiming my stats are falsified, as they are not. These are the actual calculated figures for the setups I've given. There has been no tampering to give Amarr a worse outcome. If you believe something else should be tested, please put it forward and I will write a response to that. Cheers The folks critisizing the stats are not saying they are falsified. They are saying the ship layouts upon which those stats are based are not realistic. There is a big difference. Even if your stats are accepted at face value, what they say is that the Amarr are not the best at anything. The only thing the stats show Amarr as being worst at is cap.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.11.18 20:18:00 - [437] i gank people with tachyon beams ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.11.19 01:52:00 - [438] Can someone please explain something to me? Ok, why do caldari/minmatar boats have anywhere near the amount of cap-recharge per second as gallente/amarr? Really... their weapons use absolutely no cap, so why should they have anywhere near the amount of cap-recharge per second? "Shield tanking" Is actually more cap efficient than armor tanking with just one amp. "MWDs" Everyone needs to use them, not just caldari/minmatar There is no reason why their cap-recharge rates should be anywhere near similar, none, nada, zilch. No more free ***** lunches man. LEt me put it another way, everyone has to tank, everyone needs to fit basically the same gear, why in the ** should 2 races get ships that fire indefinately, while two races get gimped? An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Lord AtTiLAs Legion Du Lys GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.19 04:32:00 - [439] /Signed Can't go drastic and change everything on Amarr. Raise 10% Reduction Capacitor use (Level 5 --> 59% of original laser cap use) to 20% reduction capacitor use (Level 5 --> 32.7% of original laser cap use) on all ship that allready as that bonus. This will just give Amarr the chance to attack while being attacked. Also giving us a more effective bonus that do not just patch an handicap.
Azumel Trimark	Posted - 2007.11.19 04:43:00 - [440] REPORTING TO THE CONCENTRATION THREAD AS ORDERED BY THE SS OF EVE. (aka valorem or something. You know who I'm talking about) O well, not that anyone of the ISD or CCP will find out. This thread is just a dumphole for em anyway SO LETS TALK ABOUT SOMETHIGN n00 :D So i heard you liek mudkip?

Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.20 01:27:00 - [441] Originally by: Azumel Trimark So i heard you liek mudkip? Definately... Latest Video, Click Here!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.20 02:57:00 - [442] Originally by: Tarron Sarek Oh and btw: the cap usage bonus IS a meaningful bonus. Stop thinking so dmg centered. No its not. Its a fake bonus. Or how would you explain abaddon? It doesnt have it. Does it suck? No its one of our best ships. THE BONUS IS BULLZHIT.
Blinding Light	Posted - 2007.11.20 08:54:00 - [443] /signed amarr atm are 4tl :-(((
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:34:00 - [444] Whell - 15 pages, 450 posts and no Dev answer. Looks like they just dont whant to boost amarrs at all (maybe becouse it means that they agreed - they ignored problem for all this years). Then another solution - nefring all other races(armageddon is near) What needs nefr - your suggestions. Maybe in this direction topic will have some attention? 8)
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.20 11:04:00 - [445] Originally by: shinsushi Can someone please explain something to me? Ok, why do caldari/minmatar boats have anywhere near the amount of cap-recharge per second as gallente/amarr? Really... their weapons use absolutely no cap, so why should they have anywhere near the amount of cap-recharge per second? "Shield tanking" Is actually more cap efficient than armor tanking with just one amp. "MWDs" Everyone needs to use them, not just caldari/minmatar There is no reason why their cap-recharge rates should be anywhere near similar, none, nada, zilch. No more free ***** lunches man. LEt me put it another way, everyone has to tank, everyone needs to fit basically the same gear, why in the ** should 2 races get ships that fire indefinately, while two races get gimped? they are NOT simmilar. Compare typhoon against an Ammar BS for example. Also weapons ap usage is MINIMAl, most of cap is used by tanks. So the cap recharge advantage don need to be huge. My Ammar char with an Apoc can fire and repair for longer than this one with my typhoon (both without using Boost charges). If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.20 16:48:00 - [446] Originally by: PeacefullNub Whell - 15 pages, 450 posts and no Dev answer. Looks like they just dont whant to boost amarrs at all (maybe becouse it means that they agreed - they ignored problem for all this years). Then another solution - nefring all other races(armageddon is near) What needs nefr - your suggestions. Maybe in this direction topic will have some attention? 8) Devs have already confirmed a problem with amarr turret ships. Theyve also said that some sort of fix amarr meeting will take place. Question is WHEN???
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.11.20 17:37:00 - [447] Edited by: Inspiration on 20/11/2007 17:56:14 Edited by: Inspiration on 20/11/2007 17:54:37 So much anger, Palpatine would have been proud. The OP spews so many wrong and misleading data its just too annoying to read (A dominix using 6 neutrons, o yeah....try to fit 3 then come back to me). No wonder no Dev stepped in to do their say. Real setups have to deal with a balance of tank/gank/fitting/cap all at the same time and work in a strategy to that suits their strengths. Balancing has to be along the same lines, but what the OP and others are seeking is an easy to fit ship with no drawbacks that can be throw together with the easy of a raven, but is uber for PvP too. A well fitted geddon can jump into a group of ships and take them out one by one. You just have to think out of the box! Oh and ditch that crappy EFT program, a recent version I looked at could not even get right the amount of armor, and the tank and DPS numbers where totaly nuts too! To give something to think about: * Ships have more low slots then med slots (amarr are king in this respect). * A plate has pretty easy fittings for passive setups and gives 60% MORE effective HP then a shield extender. * EW in med can cripple a target ship, a shield tanker doesnt have the slots for it, so are more limited in PvP. * You do NOT need much firepower to take out a ship, its a common misconception. All you need is time and a way to destoy the target ships cap so its active tank fails. Hmm, amarr and cap, they got plenty of it! * Try autocannons for a change, works pretty well. LOL. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6021365693605761325
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:56:00 - [448] Interestingly, why people (not played for race) approve that amarrs have no problems, that amarr ships have enough cap for lasers and tank, that amarr players simply are not able to play well, etc. And after that they advise to fit autocanons and artis Try to fit lasers on your mega or tempese - forget about bonuses of the ships. Just try to play according your own advice. Maybe then youl understand (Though I doubt)...
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.11.21 13:45:00 - [449] First of all /signed Originally by: ArtemisEntreri The Typhoon: Resistances: 80.9/73.1/77.5/80.5 EM here is highest, but minmatar should get an advantage against amarr Why?? ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
BattleBrotherKid	Posted - 2007.11.21 16:59:00 - [450] over 9000% to laser damage. Problem solved. Now.. I wonder where this thread will go... more importantly, why the heck does everyone keep taking this thread seriously? 0.o NO U!

Tatsue Niko Applied Eugenics Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.11.21 17:42:00 - [451] Great Read. /Signed
Miss Greed	Posted - 2007.11.21 17:44:00 - [452] Significant points raised Interesting Approach Great read Not really all the long Energy weapon ships definatly need SOMETHING Dont think CCP can ignore this one
Rodj Khan	Posted - 2007.11.21 17:45:00 - [453] Even though I'm caldari only, I agree with the raven facts, and all in all /Signed.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.21 18:16:00 - [454] Originally by: BattleBrotherKid why the heck does everyone keep taking this thread seriously? 0.o Probably someone has gone mad. Either we all, or just you. Simply people want balance in game. Certainly ideal balance never will be - but we aspire to it. We try to show developers their lacks (it is a pity that they are engaged in debugging of graphic effects of trinity or something, instead of fixing core problems of game now - graphic is secondary) I realy dont want amarrs became the strongest race. I shall simply leave game if similar happens. But also i dont like that amarrs the weakest race - and it is visible to the majority of players (esteem 450 posts of a theme - in 430 people agree that are necessary to boost amarrs - disputes go only about ways). They should not be the strongest everywhere - simply they should borrow the niche in game. From that rebalance will win all. (Sry for translate - i know its awefull)
Neamus	Posted - 2007.11.21 18:37:00 - [455] Ouch, I've always liked being Amarr but I'm starting to feel a bit crap now... /signed fix it!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.23 02:21:00 - [456] Just to let everyone know, it took me three days to get in to a Hurricane, and it's infinately better than a Harbinger. Plenty of fitting room, faster, more apparent damage (probably due to resists), better damage types, more cap, two NOS, better tank, smaller signature, better inertia... I can't even use t2 medium autocannons, and the Hurricane is still better than the Harbinger. Seriously, this is stupid... Latest Video, Click Here!
AenarisNL	Posted - 2007.11.23 03:14:00 - [457] first of all /signed 2nd if read all and still agrees on the first post. Quote: I read through it all. You're doing it wrong. Stop playing Eve in EFT and start playing Eve on TQ. All of your theoretical maximums and paper analysis is completely useless and has no validity. You're forcing each ship to use theoretical setups in order to establish a 'baseline' that is fictional and unrealistic. Each ship will be fit/tuned to it's specific strengths and weaknesses. Again, your theories are invalid and without basis. Bellum Eternus Quote: OP: stop playing EFT and start playing Eve FFS. Bellum Eternus /me looks at the movies, start playing amarr. and, play eve. ok amarr slaved the minmatar, why does minmatarr own amarr then. how did they ever manage it, if they can't tank(passive) and fire guns at the same time. so isn't this a rule from u guys, plot whise ;). Quote: /signed even though the devs are going to ignore this thread like every other amarr thread. we probably shouldn't even be drawing attention to our selves or zulu might see amarr fit for a nerf. Quote: Zulupark was asking in another Thread what ideas we had for Amarr to give them some 'Oomph', and I think this is a perfect example of why we need some. he even mentioned looking at omni tanking... don't mess with amarr ress. a) things u may change are cap recharge off amarr, or cap usage of lasers. b) powergrid usage of lasers then they are just fine. with that amarr can do both too, just like minmatar. cause minmatar ships doTsn't use cap, conclusion best tankers + gankers. i would also like to see a devblog about some amarr changes. p.s. boost amarr, don't nerf the rest, cause u will get amarr in it aswell, example domi nosboat -> recon ships amarr.
Soulsfire	Posted - 2007.11.23 04:52:00 - [458] Excelent post, great information. As I have Vista 64, I cannot run the figures using that program. This info helps a lot. Can you please run the figures for my mission Abaddon. 6 x Tac Modulated Energy Beam's 4 x T2 Cap Charger's 1 x T2 Cap Power Relay 1 x Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I 1 x T2 Heat Sink 1 x T2 EM/Exp/Kin/Therm active hardner's 3 x T1 Cap Control Circuit Rig's 7 x Infiltrator II's
Skyr ECP Rogues The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.11.23 06:07:00 - [459] Signed. Something needs to be done about EM damage on shields/armor tank. There is really no reason for it to be 0/60.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.23 07:54:00 - [460] Originally by: Soulsfire Excelent post, great information. As I have Vista 64, I cannot run the figures using that program. This info helps a lot. as you asked - exactly same fit, all skills at V resistence: em 88.5 thermal 81.4 kin 78.5, exp 77.1 96185 effective hp, (defence 343) 7969 cap total(79.6 consumption, 106.7 peac rechardge) dps 424 (turrets 310.5 drone 113.9) 2795 volley damage (but i think there is better setups for tachions)

Min Seong Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.11.23 15:08:00 - [461] Maybe CCP is being quiet about this again because there is an undisclosed Amarr buff in Trinity? Or am I just going off the deep end being optimistic?
Liam Liam	Posted - 2007.11.23 15:28:00 - [462] ye
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2007.11.23 15:32:00 - [463] Maybe the reason CCP don't respond is: 1. They do there own comparisons, using real setups rather than fictional ones. 2. There is more to tanking than what you compared, you know like HP tanks which Amarr are great at. 3. The fact that having lots of lows allows them to fit tank mods and nearly always a damage mod to where other races have less lows so have to compramise. 4. Theres more to tanking than just armour, even when tanked, a damage control makes structure around 20k effective, and even resistances. 5. Complaining about damage dealing without looking at the huge pulse optimal range. 6. Believe it or not some people fit different hardeners than eanm, the second they do that its a huge difference. 7. Comparing gank+tank to shield tankers with no propulsion mods or tackling... yeah cos thats not biased. Not saying there isn't problems, but you've gone way overboard and proven nothing using these comparisons. Amarr DONT suck, SOME Amarr ships suck and definately not in the way you're saying. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.11.23 16:04:00 - [464] Edited by: madaluap on 23/11/2007 16:12:40 Damn these comparisons, they made me lol. And all the people claiming its a intresting read... range? whats that? Damagetypes? whats that? Fitting problems? whats that? Skill investment? whats that? EFT dps numbers and made up setups that supposedly everyone uses..check. My highest resists are EM and explosive or kin/therm. Depends. Look @ domi. It uses 6* neutron II + magstabs with no fitting mods and lets go to the tanking test. O yes: 6* neutron II + magstabs + dual large armor rep + tank + dual large injector to keep cap going and it can nos 60 cap/s aswell....But at the same time? I dont think so. A xlarge shieldtanking tempest aswell. hahahahah and using inties for the capacitor test. Crusader is fastest inty together with the claw, but plenty of range and has the dps. One of the best dogfighters... _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
thoth foc Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.11.23 16:56:00 - [465] I havent read 16 pages of this, but as an player with a character spec'd in every race, i can say that my amarr char is the one i rarely use anymore.. It's got a good logistic ship, but the rest (CS or below) are at best average.. it's BS suck badly.. cap usage and fittings for a fleet fitting are just stupid.. and it's recon has been super nerfed.. dictors, inties, HACs, BC, CS are usable but none are good, compared to the other races.. _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) ATUK (.5.) xDICE (BOB) xElcyion Lacar
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.23 17:18:00 - [466] Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 23/11/2007 16:12:40 Damn these comparisons, they made me lol. And all the people claiming its a intresting read... range? whats that? Damagetypes? whats that? Fitting problems? whats that? Skill investment? whats that? EFT dps numbers and made up setups that supposedly everyone uses..check. My highest resists are EM and explosive or kin/therm. Depends. Look @ domi. It uses 6* neutron II + magstabs with no fitting mods and lets go to the tanking test. O yes: 6* neutron II + magstabs + dual large armor rep + tank + dual large injector to keep cap going and it can nos 60 cap/s aswell....But at the same time? I dont think so. A xlarge shieldtanking tempest aswell. hahahahah and using inties for the capacitor test. Crusader is fastest inty together with the claw, but plenty of range and has the dps. One of the best dogfighters... Apparently you read half way through the main post and none of the replies, then decided to troll for some reason... Good work! Latest Video, Click Here!
Dalwin	Posted - 2007.11.23 18:47:00 - [467] On the topic of laser cap usage, I note the tests used conflagration ammo. I don't have the stats for that ammo type handy, what (if any) is its cap usage reduction? In general, the crystals with the highest damage output also have the highest cap usage. The other extreme is standard crystals which are mediocre damage, only outperforming the crystals that extend your range, but have a whopping 45% reduction in cap usage. There are also types that have somewhat better damage than standard and give a 35% reduction. If you are looking at tanking setups, does it not make sense to see how well your cap holds out using a crystal type that has a substantial discount on cap usage?
Kirov VIII	Posted - 2007.11.23 20:04:00 - [468] It's the 9999999 posts about amarr since somes years bur CCP ignore always and don't give any answers !!! CCP have give the stats of EvE : - lower racial ship : AMARR - lower player in a race : AMARR - lower produced ships : AMARR You wait the end of the game for balance the game ? You can directly remove amarr and replace all ships and skills by gallente. The problem is solved, you have lost one race, all are happy and you don't have lost any minutes for try to resolve the problem.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.23 22:54:00 - [469] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Maybe the reason CCP don't respond is: 1.2.3.4.5.6.7. Can be. But I think, if it was the truth, then developers would tell us. And their silence only denies your conjectures. You can criticize some correctness or abnormality of fit on the ships but while you have not played for amarrs - you will not see a problem. Originally by: Mila Prestoc Not saying there isn't problems, but you've gone way overboard and proven nothing using these comparisons. Amarr DONT suck, SOME Amarr ships suck and definately not in the way you're saying. As I also have told above - if you dont whant to see, then even oficial statistic devblog (where amarrs and amarrian ships on 3-4rth places in all categories) for you will be false...
Danbar Roth Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.23 23:16:00 - [470] /signed

bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.11.23 23:19:00 - [471] Edited by: bloomich on 23/11/2007 23:18:58 Originally by: Goumindong The only real problem right now is that omni tanks are easier to fit. And that is about it. I mean, right now, Amarran battleships are in about the right spot for where they need to be. Such a change would break them in order to fix the battlecruisers and below, many of which still wouldnt be fixed. Hello! When EAMN's required less fitting in Cold War expation pack - People hardly used them. I have told you why but you refuse to accept that is was the introduction of broken Armour compensation skills that started the whole EANM issue overnight. Want proof? Ask any pvper if thye used EANM setups PRIOR to CCP introducing broken armour compensation skills? --SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2007.11.23 23:20:00 - [472] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: Mila Prestoc Maybe the reason CCP don't respond is: 1.2.3.4.5.6.7. Can be. But I think, if it was the truth, then developers would tell us. And their silence only denies your conjectures. You can criticize some correctness or abnormality of fit on the ships but while you have not played for amarrs - you will not see a problem. Originally by: Mila Prestoc Not saying there isn't problems, but you've gone way overboard and proven nothing using these comparisons. Amarr DONT suck, SOME Amarr ships suck and definately not in the way you're saying. As I also have told above - if you dont whant to see, then even oficial statistic devblog (where amarrs and amarrian ships on 3-4rth places in all categories) for you will be false... I have multiple accounts thanks, not my fault amarr have a unfounded generalised reputation of sucking, argue the points I made cos they're valid. The OP is the one who's went out with an agenda and only argued specific areas using these comparisons to "prove" his point. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.23 23:38:00 - [473] Mila Prestoc To criticize is always mutch easy. OP has worked to make the comparisons, has proved them, has painted all this. Has proved on them that there is a problem with amarrs. Make the comparison of all ships (as well as OP) and prove that you are right and he was mistaken (and we shall criticize yours fit btw). While you not made it - all your critics - empty talk.
Soulsfire	Posted - 2007.11.24 00:27:00 - [474] Originally by: PeacefullNub as you asked - exactly same fit, all skills at V resistence: em 88.5 thermal 81.4 kin 78.5, exp 77.1 96185 effective hp, (defence 343) 7969 cap total(79.6 consumption, 106.7 peac rechardge) dps 424 (turrets 310.5 drone 113.9) 2795 volley damage (but i think there is better setups for tachions) Thank you
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2007.11.24 00:59:00 - [475] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 24/11/2007 01:00:09 Originally by: PeacefullNub Edited by: PeacefullNub on 24/11/2007 00:07:08 To criticize is always much easier. OP has worked to make the comparisons, has proved them, has printed all this. Has proved on them that there is a problem with amarrs. Make the comparison of all ships (as well as OP) and prove that you are right and he was mistaken (and we shall criticize yours fit btw). While you not made it - all your critics - empty talk. No he hasn't, the whole method he's used is flawed, using fictional comparisons that don't reflect real gameplay, if you can't see that its your problem. First example, he says for his Damage Analysis: First off is a flat out DPS potential for each ship. Resistances are not taken in to account here, neither are fittings (unless it's impossible). Simply close range high damage weapons with three damage mods. Drones are also used. So all ships limited to using 3 damage mods, ok wise due to stacking penalites, but then NEVER looking at what is fit in the other slots in REAL setups is rediculus. Its where the extra lows vs other armour tankers really comes into play when you can fit extra tank. Since rigs were introduced the biggest advantage goes to specialized ships which when using rigs that avoids stacking penalites (hp rigs) provide the biggest benifit. If your going to just ignore the other slots lets stick as many damage mods on as possible, see what stupid values you can get on a Typhoon with 3 gyros and 4 bcs... means nothing unless you look at the COMPLETE SETUP, not just "with this setup you get X dps and with this other setup you tank Y dps". The combination of damage, tank, range, cap and tackling mods ect is what makes the ship, not just "my damage setup does so and so and yours does more so my ship sucks" or "my tank setup tanks so and so and yours tanks more so my ship sucks". ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Blinde Goettin	Posted - 2007.11.24 01:33:00 - [476] /signed amarr still suck big time... and still no answer from the apropriate folks from ccp after 16 pages here. well that kinda s...s too
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.24 01:37:00 - [477] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 24/11/2007 01:00:09 Originally by: PeacefullNub Edited by: PeacefullNub on 24/11/2007 00:07:08 To criticize is always much easier. OP has worked to make the comparisons, has proved them, has printed all this. Has proved on them that there is a problem with amarrs. Make the comparison of all ships (as well as OP) and prove that you are right and he was mistaken (and we shall criticize yours fit btw). While you not made it - all your critics - empty talk. No he hasn't, the whole method he's used is flawed, using fictional comparisons that don't reflect real gameplay, if you can't see that its your problem. First example, he says for his Damage Analysis: First off is a flat out DPS potential for each ship. Resistances are not taken in to account here, neither are fittings (unless it's impossible). Simply close range high damage weapons with three damage mods. Drones are also used. So all ships limited to using 3 damage mods, ok wise due to stacking penalites, but then NEVER looking at what is fit in the other slots in REAL setups is rediculus. Its where the extra lows vs other armour tankers really comes into play when you can fit extra tank. Since rigs were introduced the biggest advantage goes to specialized ships which when using rigs that avoids stacking penalites (hp rigs) provide the biggest benifit. If your going to just ignore the other slots lets stick as many damage mods on as possible, see what stupid values you can get on a Typhoon with 3 gyros and 4 bcs... means nothing unless you look at the COMPLETE SETUP, not just "with this setup you get X dps and with this other setup you tank Y dps". The combination of damage, tank, range, cap and tackling mods ect is what makes the ship, not just "my damage setup does so and so and yours does more so my ship sucks" or "my tank setup tanks so and so and yours tanks more so my ship sucks".
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.24 01:49:00 - [478] Originally by: Mila Prestoc not my fault amarr have a unfounded generalised reputation of sucking, argue the points I made cos they're valid The points (s)he made are indeed valid, and frankly they've pretty much been argued several times but have gone largely ignored. Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Apparently you read half way through the main post and none of the replies, then decided to troll for some reason... Good work! Let's try to be more mature and stick to the issues at hand please. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that they're wrong, let alone a troll. Majority of people agree that there is something 'off' about amarr, but disagree as to it's basis and thus the solution to fix it. In your case, you raise just about every weakness that there is with key amarr ships, and yet none of their strengths. No one is complaining that your analysis isn't thorough, just that it's vastly incomplete and fairly unrealistic because you're looking at things from one very narrow viewpoint at a time when the whole picture needs to be observed. As an example, in your tanking comparison you don't even mention things like the fact that the armageddon has the highest base armor and is tied for highest structure, or that it has the second best speed and second smallest sig radius, all good points and things to be proud of. These things DO make a difference, and they're not really indicated on something like EFT. For offensive capabilities, you go on and on about Amarr versus armor, but you don't even once mention the devestating effect they have on shields. Amarr are crappy at chewing through armor because they're 'sofa king' good at eating shields. Frankly, I don't even know why you mention that Amarr are known as the 'dps race' either. Every race is known for a few things, but no one is the 'dps race'. Lastly, and most importantly, I don't see you proposing any realistic solutions to any realistic issues. The closest thing is that you want a homogenization effect of altering Amarr, and you demand it in such a way that it makes you sound like you want everything for nothing. The speed of Minmatar, the shields of Caldari, change damage types like Caldari or Minmatar....you either want all these things for Amarr ships, or you want these things nerfed to match Amarr. Respect the simple fact that diversity is a KEY factor in EVE, and that this does exasperate some balancing issues. Rather than arguing unrealistic setup comparisons, try proposing some workable solutions that are still balanced and maintain the unique mythos that the Amarr hold in the EVE universe.
Azumel Trimark	Posted - 2007.11.24 02:41:00 - [479] HAI GUYZ lets do something fun and make a quote pyramid :D C'mon! A BIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG one at that!!! I'll start Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Edited by: Felysta Sandorn on 10/11/2007 17:34:45 Edited by: Felysta Sandorn on 10/11/2007 00:10:15 Right, there seem to be masses and masses of 'Amarr Suck' threads, but none with any real evidence to this, some people post in the second page a few figures, but nothing ever really gets looked at. So today, I bring to you the ultimate 'Amarr Whine' thread. First, I'm going to analyse the damage potential of every Battleship in the game, comparing each one to it's Amarr equivilent. For every single stat that I place here, I'm using all level 5 skills for everything, and optimising the stats on every ship any way I can. For damage comparisons, I'll be using three damage mods on each ship. For tanking ability I'll be using full tanks to analyse potential. Let's get started... Damage Analysis First off is a flat out DPS potential for each ship. Resistances are not taken in to account here, neither are fittings (unless it's impossible). Simply close range high damage weapons with three damage mods. Drones are also used. Tier 1 Battleships: The Scorpion: Fitting: 4x Siege, 3x BCS Ammo: Rage Torps Volley Damage: 3754 Damage Per Second: 564 The Typhoon: Fitting: 4x Siege, 4x 800mm AC, 2x BCS, 1x Gyro Ammo: Rage Torps, Hail Volley Damage: 1260 Damage Per Second: 1049 The Armageddon: Fitting: 7x Mega Pulse, 3x Heat Sink Ammo: Conflagration Volley Damage: 2820 Damage Per Second: 1184 The Dominix: Fitting: 6x Neutron, 3x Magstab Ammo: Void Volley Damage: 3525 Damage Per Second: 1266 The Analysis: The ships are shown in order of the DPS they do (increasing). Obviously the Scorp is the worst DPS ship of the bunch, but that's expected. The Phoon at just over 100 DPS less than the geddon is hard to fit due to the split damage bonuses, but still manages to hold it's own. It also has spare drone space for two spare Ogre IIs incase a couple die. The Geddon is next (with second best damage), but doesn't have any spare drone space compared to the Phoon. Then the Dominix comes out top. Using 5 Ogre IIs and a rack of Neutrons, this thing spits out a hell of a lot of damage. The Argument: Amarr are hailed as being the 'DPS Race' among other things, but obviously this isn't the case. The geddon lies in the middle of the other two damage ships, making it the 'Average DPS race' in this circumstance. Tier 2 Battleships: The Raven: Fitting: 6x Siege, 3x BCS Ammo: Rage Torps Volley Damage: 5630 Damage Per Second: 907 The Apocalypse: Fitting: 8x Mega Pulse, 3x Heat Sink Ammo: Conflagration Volley Damage: 3223 Damage Per Second: 953 The Tempest: Fitting: 6x 800mm AC, 3x Gyro Ammo: Hail Volley Damage: 2714 Damage Per Second: 1004 The Megathron: Fitting: 7x Neutron, 3x Magstab Ammo: Void Volley Damage: 4113 Damage Per Second: 1239 The Analysis: The ships are shown in order of the DPS they do (increasing). The Raven lags behind with the lowest DPS (but only by 46), then the Apoc, then Pest, and finally Megathron. It should however be noted that the Apoc is the only ship at this tier that is using all 8 slots. That 953 DPS cannot increase any more, however the Raven can field two more guns. Two neutrons here put the raven up to 1035 DPS, over 80 MORE than the Apoc. Similarly, Now, someone quote me and lets see how long this gets :D Why? Becasue this thread is sucha fun thread as people STILL dont realize that its the dumpage of amarr whines. So get quoting :)
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.24 03:03:00 - [480] Originally by: Azumel Trimark HAI GUYZ lets do something fun and make a quote pyramid :D Please don't derail a legitimate thread. You're more than welcome to disagree with the OP in any way, shape or form but let's try to keep it civil and on track towards a solution. Thanks. =)

Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.24 05:22:00 - [481] Bump for oomph.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.24 08:53:00 - [482] Originally by: Mila Prestoc No he hasn't, the whole method he's used is flawed, using fictional comparisons that don't reflect real gameplay, if you can't see that its your problem. Yes yes yes - OP has written all continuous lie. All its comparisons are wrong. etc. In this tread 5-6 persons already spoke absolutely same things. But for some unknown reason noone from them has not told as it is possible to compare better. And nobody has tried to compare alternatively. Do not be "forum warrior" as well as they - prove that you are right. Of course OP comparison far from ideall. And ideal comparison is impossible . As I also spoke above - compare all - lay out results and right fit here on all ships then speak that OP liar.
AeonOfTime Minmatar Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.24 09:27:00 - [483] Well, you were not joking when you called this thread the "ultimate" Amarr problem thread... I read the whole thing, thanks for putting all that info together...! I started out as Minmatar, but switched to Amarr because I just like lasers and how the ships look. I use an Abaddon for missioning, as well as a Zealot (Heavy Assault Ship). I have stayed in Minmatar space, so I have a lot of trouble with the missions here, especially the ones against the Angel Cartel like The Blockade to cite just one. However, I cannot say that I have a capacitor problem. I use Capacitor Power Relay IIs combined with Capacitor Control Circuit I rigs for cap support, and can run all eight guns (T1 beam tachyons) indefinitely along with 1 LAR II, Sensor Booster, Targetting enhancer, Target Painter, and Webifier - but that is without a real tank: I just have one Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II fitted. That is quite enough for L3s though (L4s are too much so far for me). Where I can see that it can get problematic is with tech 2 large beam tachyons... I think the points you raised about Amarr ships needing mor support for the guns they are made to fit is the most important one. If you just increase cap on these ships, they will become cap *****s. They should rather get cap bonuses to laser turrets to alleviate their power consumption imo. -- Read the captain's log at eve.aeonoftime.com
Chronos VIII Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.24 10:03:00 - [484] Originally by: AeonOfTime Well, you were not joking when you called this thread the "ultimate" Amarr problem thread... I read the whole thing, thanks for putting all that info together...! I started out as Minmatar, but switched to Amarr because I just like lasers and how the ships look. I use an Abaddon for missioning, as well as a Zealot (Heavy Assault Ship). I have stayed in Minmatar space, so I have a lot of trouble with the missions here, especially the ones against the Angel Cartel like The Blockade to cite just one. However, I cannot say that I have a capacitor problem. I use Capacitor Power Relay IIs combined with Capacitor Control Circuit I rigs for cap support, and can run all eight guns (T1 beam tachyons) indefinitely along with 1 LAR II, Sensor Booster, Targetting enhancer, Target Painter, and Webifier - but that is without a real tank: I just have one Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II fitted. That is quite enough for L3s though (L4s are too much so far for me). Where I can see that it can get problematic is with tech 2 large beam tachyons... I think the points you raised about Amarr ships needing mor support for the guns they are made to fit is the most important one. If you just increase cap on these ships, they will become cap *****s. They should rather get cap bonuses to laser turrets to alleviate their power consumption imo. No, No and No. Please stop posting. We are not talking about pve here, so get outta here This ridiculous power need bonus we have atm is utterly useless and comes from a time when lasers were overpowered and every1 used them.
Jonny JoJo	Posted - 2007.11.24 11:30:00 - [485] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 24/11/2007 11:32:07 Originally by: AeonOfTime Well, you were not joking when you called this thread the "ultimate" Amarr problem thread... I read the whole thing, thanks for putting all that info together...! I started out as Minmatar, but switched to Amarr because I just like lasers and how the ships look. I use an Abaddon for missioning, as well as a Zealot (Heavy Assault Ship). I have stayed in Minmatar space, so I have a lot of trouble with the missions here, especially the ones against the Angel Cartel like The Blockade to cite just one. However, I cannot say that I have a capacitor problem. I use Capacitor Power Relay IIs combined with Capacitor Control Circuit I rigs for cap support, and can run all eight guns (T1 beam tachyons) indefinitely along with 1 LAR II, Sensor Booster, Targetting enhancer, Target Painter, and Webifier - but that is without a real tank: I just have one Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II fitted. That is quite enough for L3s though (L4s are too much so far for me). Where I can see that it can get problematic is with tech 2 large beam tachyons... I think the points you raised about Amarr ships needing mor support for the guns they are made to fit is the most important one. If you just increase cap on these ships, they will become cap *****s. They should rather get cap bonuses to laser turrets to alleviate their power consumption imo. ok so you are a Minmatar that uses Amarr, one of the worst races for PvE against your Minmatar 70-80% EM resist missions, and think that they are balanced because they work in lvl3's? I dont think you point is relevant since your skills are so low and perhaps that your ROF is so bad that you use half the cap of high skilled pvper, and with your setup, you probebly only do just about enough dps to kill lvl3 rats. But I must ask, Tachy vs lvl3 rats that are small and orbit you faster than your guns can track? Please tell me this is not for real :)
Waukesha Amarr The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.24 11:49:00 - [486] /^\#/\@/// Signed Op, great post. And in the field, I find that the fall off on lasers let amarr down.
poopsy nobottle Original Pirating Material	Posted - 2007.11.24 12:09:00 - [487] there is alot to think about for ammar but i think these are ammar's main problems. Range. On paper this is vey nice, on my battle cruiser i get an optimal of 7.5k with conflag and can switch quickly to about 17k with scorh. Nice. The problem is that with the optimal of 7.5k i am in web range, as most other ships are faster then me once i am webbed they can easily aproach me even if webbed, this puts me uder optimal and usually puts the enemy im optimal. Trying to get range when webbed as ammar is crazy as running guns + rep + mwd = no cap. trying to fit a web and scramb on most ammar ships below battleships is pretty hard anyway. Ammars thing is range + cap though so this would be a difficult area to change. i think that ammar are also a gang race, there are very few ships which work well on there own that are ammar below bs. i think the reason for this is the type of play that is used today unless your speedy your pretty much scwered speed for ammar ships is something that dosnt really work too well due to the cap needed for lasers, lack of mid slots and and cap needed for mwd's. Ammar defo need looking at but what it is im not sure.
Formulka	Posted - 2007.11.24 13:31:00 - [488] /signed ... i wanna see that precious yellow dev strip on at least one serious amarr thread
Meridius Dex Amarr Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.24 14:32:00 - [489] The more I read about it (and gain PvP experience) the more I'm convinced the Amarr problems are threefold (and all easily addressable without disturbing game balance - in fact, enhancing it): 1.) Lasers need a mathematical adjustment to cap use and/or damage. This needn't be dramatic, but it must be enough to address that... 2.) Ship Bonuses must be changed from these ridiculous laser cap use bonuses. As mentioned several times before, Amarr are the only race which must rely on a ship bonus just to use their racial weapons. This is unacceptable and Amarr should enjoy 'real' ship bonuses just like the other three races in EVE. 3.) Finally, and most importantly, MWD simply MUST be nerfed significantly. Another forum post (sorry, can't remember who/where) posited a change to MWD along the lines of: frig modules= 350% speed, cruiser modules= 300% speed, battleship modules= 250%. The most significant problem with Amarr ships (as much or more than lasers themselves) is the fact that there is no 'medium range combat' in EVE. All fights are either at long-range sniper or short-range blaster distances. MWD is the culprit for this and has drastically imbalanced PvP. The Devs have mentioned in the past that anytime any one module is being used by everyone in a game that it suggests there's a game imbalance. Well, guess what... -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.24 15:35:00 - [490] Originally by: daemorhedron Originally by: Mila Prestoc not my fault amarr have a unfounded generalised reputation of sucking, argue the points I made cos they're valid The points (s)he made are indeed valid, and frankly they've pretty much been argued several times but have gone largely ignored. There are no real true points made in the OP. The battleship is probably the only instance where Amarr is relativly balanced.

Cuisinart Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.24 16:14:00 - [491] Good post. props for taking the time.
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.24 19:09:00 - [492] Edited by: daemorhedron on 24/11/2007 19:13:28 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: daemorhedron The points (s)he made are indeed valid, and frankly they've pretty much been argued several times but have gone largely ignored. There are no real true points made in the OP. The battleship is probably the only instance where Amarr is relativly balanced. My post was in reference to what Mila had written, NOT the OP. Originally by: Meridius Dex The more I read about it (and gain PvP experience) the more I'm convinced the Amarr problems are threefold (and all easily addressable without disturbing game balance - in fact, enhancing it): 1.) Lasers need a mathematical adjustment to cap use and/or damage. This needn't be dramatic, but it must be enough to address that... 2.) Ship Bonuses must be changed from these ridiculous laser cap use bonuses. As mentioned several times before, Amarr are the only race which must rely on a ship bonus just to use their racial weapons. This is unacceptable and Amarr should enjoy 'real' ship bonuses just like the other three races in EVE. Yes, absolutely. That's what most of us are campaigning for. You also left out the horrible fitting reqs of lasers, which are another 'essential' change now long overdue. Another thing that needs examination is the wacky 8th slot on some Amarr ships. Sure would be nice if they could fit a full 8 turrets, but laser fittings, laser cap use and laser cap use bonuses are things that need immediate changing to get things to a very acceptable level. Anything beyond that still needs to be tabled for now, partially because of new changes coming with Trinity. Originally by: Meridius Dex 3.) Finally, and most importantly, MWD simply MUST be nerfed significantly. Another forum post (sorry, can't remember who/where) posited a change to MWD along the lines of: frig modules= 350% speed, cruiser modules= 300% speed, battleship modules= 250%. Sorry, but no. There are PLENTY of countering technologies and frankly this is really an issue for another thread. Originally by: Meridius Dex The Devs have mentioned in the past that anytime any one module is being used by everyone in a game that it suggests there's a game imbalance. Well, guess what... Not everyone fits MWD on every build, and it's pretty unnecessary (not to mention unimaginative) if you feel the need to do so, especially if you're doing a 'keeping up with the neighbours' attitude. Fitting an MWD has dramatic drawbacks, and will have even more counters with the release of Trinity.
Jonny JoJo	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:16:00 - [493] Originally by: daemorhedron Not everyone fits MWD on every build, and it's pretty unnecessary (not to mention unimaginative) if you feel the need to do so, especially if you're doing a 'keeping up with the neighbours' attitude. Fitting an MWD has dramatic drawbacks, and will have even more counters with the release of Trinity. mWD's are the current guarenteed item every quality pvper has. Every pvp ship must have a MWD if it plans to survive. So what if you dont fit a MWD? Well, when you fight someone, and they can MWD out of scrambler range if they judge they are not going to win, then guess what, your own lack of MWD means that you will struggle to beat anyone, as they can warp out at will, keep out of your optimal at will etc etc!
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:32:00 - [494] Originally by: Jonny JoJo mWD's are the current guarenteed item every quality pvper has. Every pvp ship must have a MWD if it plans to survive. So what if you dont fit a MWD? Well, when you fight someone, and they can MWD out of scrambler range if they judge they are not going to win, then guess what, your own lack of MWD means that you will struggle to beat anyone, as they can warp out at will, keep out of your optimal at will etc etc! If they are MWDing away to try to escape because they know they can't win, or better yet because they are losing, I'd call that beating someone. Most ships that SHOULD fit MWD NEED them (built to speedtank, inty's zooming in to catch their prey, trying to get into range to even hit, etc), so once again fit a single mod appropriately and you can easily beat someone with an MWD without relying on it yourself. You're also talking about the 'do everything' build (MWD, tackle, gank, tank, you name it) which takes us further and further away from the 'data' in the OP. If you're trying to do everything solo, what do you expect? There's some sanity to teaming up with people that don't all have the same ship and build. Tacklers tackle, gankers gank. Try to do both (or more) or roles at once and you of course have to make some sacrifices. MWD is as much of a blessing as it is a curse, but like I said this isn't an amarr issue and the whole MWD thing is best left for another thread.
Morhon Amarr Aegis Starship Enterprises	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:38:00 - [495] Amarr have sucked for ages. Couldn't be arsed to read what u have said cus I don't need to. Amarr are doomed because they can only do 2 damage types and most of the bonuses they get are aimed at making the ships useable. Since the useage figures have been published it's pretty obvious why they have done sod all about it. Not many amarr players. Seems they are too dim to work out thats cus amarr suck, so constantly ignore the largest empire having the fewest players and try to get people to move from caldari space to 0.0 Server load is low there (erm just like amarr space) Stupid in the extreme and not gonna get fixed anytime soon, they will be too busy making a Gallante ships even better! Does my bum look big in this cape?
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:39:00 - [496] Originally by: daemorhedron Originally by: Jonny JoJo mWD's are the current guarenteed item every quality pvper has. Every pvp ship must have a MWD if it plans to survive. So what if you dont fit a MWD? Well, when you fight someone, and they can MWD out of scrambler range if they judge they are not going to win, then guess what, your own lack of MWD means that you will struggle to beat anyone, as they can warp out at will, keep out of your optimal at will etc etc! If they are MWDing away to try to escape because they know they can't win, or better yet because they are losing, I'd call that beating someone. Most ships that SHOULD fit MWD NEED them (built to speedtank, inty's zooming in to catch their prey, trying to get into range to even hit, etc), so once again fit a single mod appropriately and you can easily beat someone with an MWD without relying on it yourself. You're also talking about the 'do everything' build (MWD, tackle, gank, tank, you name it) which takes us further and further away from the 'data' in the OP. If you're trying to do everything solo, what do you expect? There's some sanity to teaming up with people that don't all have the same ship and build. Tacklers tackle, gankers gank. Try to do both (or more) or roles at once and you of course have to make some sacrifices. MWD is as much of a blessing as it is a curse, but like I said this isn't an amarr issue and the whole MWD thing is best left for another thread. For ships of all sizes upto and including battleships, please can you find a competent pvper that does not use a MWD. Nano setups is something else. On the killboards of all pvp corps, they all have mwd's on ever ship they fly. Anyhow, who know what the future brings. EVE Trinity - The Trinity of Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:42:00 - [497] Originally by: Morhon Amarr have sucked for ages. Couldn't be arsed to read what u have said cus I don't need to. Amarr are doomed because they can only do 2 damage types and most of the bonuses they get are aimed at making the ships useable. Since the useage figures have been published it's pretty obvious why they have done sod all about it. Not many amarr players. Seems they are too dim to work out thats cus amarr suck, so constantly ignore the largest empire having the fewest players and try to get people to move from caldari space to 0.0 Server load is low there (erm just like amarr space) Stupid in the extreme and not gonna get fixed anytime soon, they will be too busy making a Gallante ships even better! Actually NOW I know why the new expantion is suchly named EVE Trinity - The Trinity of Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar! EVE Trinity - The Trinity of Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar!
Sonic Nurse	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:53:00 - [498] The Capacitor is Empty
Liam Liam	Posted - 2007.11.25 10:45:00 - [499] Ye amarrs had it just retrain ... Honestly even if they give amarr a small boost they'll still be poor compared to the others.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.25 10:55:00 - [500] Originally by: daemorhedron Not everyone fits MWD on every build, and it's pretty unnecessary (not to mention unimaginative) if you feel the need to do so, especially if you're doing a 'keeping up with the neighbours' attitude. Fitting an MWD has dramatic drawbacks, and will have even more counters with the release of Trinity. Yeah but as it stands right now pvp in 0.0 needs mwd fitted on friggin everything from frig to battleship size. That is ¦bull, the drawbacks arent severe enough for people to cringe. Its an overpowered module compared to an AB and its going to get nerfed at some point and that will help amarr indirectly. Because unlike minmatar and gallente we cant randomly just fit mwd on everything and slap a cap booster in a mid to negate all the drawbacks.

Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.11.25 11:16:00 - [501] Amarr problem is - 2 damage types (and the most tanked ones), ship bonuses that only make it possible to fit and use the weapon and very cap hungry guns. Honestly, laser's can't do any type of damage except EM and Therm. To overcome this Amarr ships need to get a "racial role" in lasers cap use and get normal bonus (dmg or RoF) instead. Some resistances should be reworked. There are ships that have insane EM resistance even before fitting any tank. Press alt+F4 to reduce lag
waristina Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:01:00 - [502] signed....
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 13:56:00 - [503] Well, I kind of doubt CCP are going to do anything with Amarr for another 6-12 months. Yes, I said the same thing 6-12 months ago, as some may remember, but being realistic - Trinity & post Trinity will take up a lot of CCP's time for the forseable future. If some dev could communicate his thoughts over what would be a realistic timeframe to even look at Amarr and communicate this accross to their customers, even if it is multiple years, then the community would accept this. So I expect that Amarr will remain crap for another year minimum. -- Billion Isk Mission
Chaomos Skynard Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:25:00 - [504] /singed still waiting for the promised amarr improvement mentioned by CCP 6 months ago. Or was that the curse nerf they where talking about? hmm... now only have one decent ship, the sac, but yes, have to retrain from scratch in missiles, as guess what, lasers suck! Yep thanks, don't resolve the issue, just work around it. Come on CCP, all races have had cycles, but Amarr at the bottom for too long now.
Xaldor	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:42:00 - [505] Originally by: Moghydin Amarr problem is - 2 damage types (and the most tanked ones), ship bonuses that only make it possible to fit and use the weapon and very cap hungry guns. Honestly, laser's can't do any type of damage except EM and Therm. To overcome this Amarr ships need to get a "racial role" in lasers cap use and get normal bonus (dmg or RoF) instead. Some resistances should be reworked. There are ships that have insane EM resistance even before fitting any tank. I don't think it is a huge problem, damage type is mostly a PvE thing, PvP ships typically have no resistance boosts or heavy resistance boosts which tend to even out the resistances because of diminishing returns of the boost values. Either way, doesn't make much of a difference for PvP.
Deep Spacenine	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:36:00 - [506] /signed
Ktarr Rakillo	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:26:00 - [507] /signed. Good post OP, good points well made.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:34:00 - [508] Originally by: Xaldor I don't think it is a huge problem, damage type is mostly a PvE thing, PvP ships typically have no resistance boosts or heavy resistance boosts which tend to even out the resistances because of diminishing returns of the boost values. Either way, doesn't make much of a difference for PvP. What? No.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.25 19:12:00 - [509] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Xaldor I don't think it is a huge problem, damage type is mostly a PvE thing, PvP ships typically have no resistance boosts or heavy resistance boosts which tend to even out the resistances because of diminishing returns of the boost values. Either way, doesn't make much of a difference for PvP. What? No. I think what he means is that PvP = highist average resist = what people do PvE = highest NPC damage type resist = what people do. Either way, that guy never used a amarr ship vs 92.5% resist minmatar ships, so I am trying to work out what his meaning is CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar!
Cpt Constantinus PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.25 20:04:00 - [510] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Xaldor I don't think it is a huge problem, damage type is mostly a PvE thing, PvP ships typically have no resistance boosts or heavy resistance boosts which tend to even out the resistances because of diminishing returns of the boost values. Either way, doesn't make much of a difference for PvP. What? No. I think what he means is that PvP = highist average resist = what people do PvE = highest NPC damage type resist = what people do. Either way, that guy never used a amarr ship vs 92.5% resist minmatar ships, so I am trying to work out what his meaning is Yea, those fights are realy fun, when your 1000dps Geddon suddenly fails to even scratch the paint of a damn Sleipnir :D

daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.25 20:32:00 - [511] Edited by: daemorhedron on 25/11/2007 20:33:35 Originally by: Random Idiocy Because unlike minmatar and gallente we cant randomly just fit mwd on everything and slap a cap booster in a mid to negate all the drawbacks. ...officially give up on you. Originally by: Moghydin Amarr problem is - 2 damage types (and the most tanked ones) Dunno about that. Originally by: Moghydin Honestly, laser's can't do any type of damage except EM and Therm. Yeah, it just seems weird to give them explo or kin. Originally by: Moghydin ...ship bonuses that only make it possible to fit and use the weapon and very cap hungry guns... To overcome this Amarr ships need to get a "racial role" in lasers cap use and get normal bonus (dmg or RoF) instead. They should get a different bonus than cap usage, yes. This point has been made MANY times, especially in this thread, and is one of the few points of contention where just about everyone can agree. Originally by: Moghydin Some resistances should be reworked. There are ships that have insane EM resistance even before fitting any tank. Possibly, but I consider this to have a lower priority. Call it something to be examined for 'phase two'. My gut feeling is they don't need reworking at all, but I'd be willing to look at this closer so I could make a properly informed opinion. Said it many times now, but I'd swear that some people are starting to just outrightly whine or even troll. I don't see realistic solutions being posted. I don't see realistic issues beyond the ones I've repeatedly identified. There's a difference between what is good for an entire race of ships (or even all the ships in eve) and things that just bug the crap out of you personally. Have the wisdom to identify between the two and accept that EVERYTHING must have a weakness. Things that need immediate addressing are: 1. laser fittings - most ships can't fit a full rack of max damage weapons. Admittedly not all amarr ships SHOULD be able to, but let's face it, laser fittings are just stupidly tight. IMO, the magical '8th slot' issue should be addressed at this point too, but I'll take what I can get. 2. laser cap usage - even with most amarr ship bonuses, it take a hell of a lot of juice to fire lasers. Sure lasers have other benefits, but the cap rate usage seems to come prenerfed. Drop it substantially. 3. laser cap usage bonus needs to be changed - as stated, lasers pretty much come prenerfed on cap charge, and having a 'bonus' like this on majority of your ships is pretty insulting. I trust the dev's wisdom to change this into something better (cap recharge, cap size, ROF, damage, whatever). Just about everyone can agree on these points and label them all 'critical'. With these key changes, amarr ships would at least 'stabilize' and we can argue about further changes after we've gotten that far. (ftr, #4 up there really should be 'Where is the Amarr emperor', but won't venture into RP territory) Even if these changes never go through, does this make Amarr a bad race? HELL NO. If you don't like Amarrian ships, DON'T FLY THEM. Plain and simple. =P
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.25 21:05:00 - [512] Originally by: daemorhedron ... No its not weird for lasers to do explo or/and kin. You can explain it with physics. Its not a stupid and unrealistic idea either. Ever seen a blaze m? DO NOT MIX REALITY WITH EVE. Reality = reality, eve = a game, mkay? Me and many amarr pilots are still going to fly amarr even if we never see the change. One would expect that ccp atleast try to have that amarr-fix meeting soon.
Xeron Silverblade Esthar Industries Tres Viri	Posted - 2007.11.25 21:06:00 - [513] (didn't read all - so don't know if it had been mentioned) amarr had THE recon with curse/pilgrim and their nos-abilities.. but now that's gone.. you might rethink the nos-nerf maybe... i see no use in using nos now after the nerf... nossing a %age of the target's cap may be more reasonable than the implementation as it is now. concerning the op: signed.
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2007.11.25 21:41:00 - [514] Something I saw a while ago, It doesn't say anywhere but on the ingame info, but all Amarr Laser weapons do about 65% EM damage and 35% Thermal, I think if these two figures were reversed to 65% Thermal and 35% EM it would help a lot.
djenghis jan Amarr Debiloff's Vanguard	Posted - 2007.11.25 22:27:00 - [515] all this is well know, i grew tired of it and decided to cross train to all other races. This way you can't be nerfed anymore :-)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.25 23:27:00 - [516] Originally by: djenghis jan all this is well know, i grew tired of it and decided to cross train to all other races. This way you can't be nerfed anymore :-) Yeah. Seems no point using Amarr in the next expantion. CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar!
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.11.25 23:28:00 - [517] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 10/11/2007 06:18:48 Originally by: Corwain The Domi is not a very damaging ship like you try to skew it to be. You fail at flying Gallente, perhaps you fail at Amarr too and that is your problem? From the Ships section on the forums I pulled the following builds: Armageddon: Effective Hitpoints û 41,418 Total DPS û 1,060 Range (Optimal+Falloff): 15+10 Dominix: Volley Damage û 2,297 Range (Optimal + Falloff): 3.8+10 The Armageddon versus the Dominix we see the Arma has the best DPS but only barely edges out the Dominix in that category.... Range? The Domi can put its drones on the Arma immediately and will spend at max 1 minute closing range where the Arma can get free shots. If the Domi throws webber drones can be faster still. Once the Domi is in range it is all over for the Arma. And this is where you guys always fall down... one vs. one Battleship combat is a rarity. You use this rare situation to justify ignoring the massive range advantage (Hello?? virtually same damage at 4.5x the rage isn't a huge advantage??...) but now put it into the context of a realistic situation; jumping through a gate into a small fleet fightà Blaster boats waste an enormous amount of time (and cap) MWD'ing from target to target; your Megathrons and Dominixs are scattered over a sphere 30km across and contrary to apparent popular belief, a MWD on a Battleship does not instantly land you on top of the enemy, does not make you 'difficult' to hit. The pulse boats on the other-hand don't have to move at all to engage... the combat envelope is perfectly suited to such a fight. Lock target - fire, lock next target - fire, lock next target - fire... There are some interesting points raised, but it's a fallacy to suggest the entire line is somehow 'broken' - they aren't, there some tweaking needed yes, but as time and time again has shown, anything more that small tweaks here and there, leads to the major problems down the line. Oh and lastly, a whole truckload of concepts and doctrines are going to be irreversibly changed after trinity (scripts), and I doubt anyone knows exactly how that will affect things and pecking order of beams, railguns and artillery and the associated ships mounting them... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.11.25 23:44:00 - [518] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn For all those still complaining about the Dominix setup, just to prove my case here, I'm going to change the guns on the Domi setup to Ions (needing a lot less powergrid, and therefore no reactor control units), and check the damage output: Originally by: Felysta Sandorn The Armageddon: Fitting: 7x Mega Pulse, 3x Heat Sink Ammo: Conflagration Volley Damage: 2820 Damage Per Second: 1184 The Dominix: Fitting: 6x Ion, 3x Magstab Ammo: Void Volley Damage: 2833 Damage Per Second: 1221 The Dominix still out-damages the Armageddon and all other tier 1 Battleships. It should also be noted that the Domi setup has tonnes of free CPU to fit a tank and tackling gear, whereas the Geddon lacks in that area (even after the CPU buff)... Plus, the Domi can carry spare drones (unlike the Armageddon), has 5 free midslots for EW (compared to the Geddon's 3), and only has one less lowslot! Finally, the new Dominix setup can sustain cap for over 17 minutes, while the Geddon runs short at just 4 minutes and 13 seconds... I hope that'll put to rest the complaints about the Dominix! And no grid to fit it... You need with AWU V, an RCU II to fit Electrons and a Single LAR II. You can of course fit a pair of powergrid rigs, and use a pair of medium cap injectors, but you double the base price of the ship in the process, so I really don't see where you are getting this '6x Ion setup with tank and tackling'... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Jobby Minmatar UNITED STAR SYNDICATE Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.11.26 03:08:00 - [519] omg too many words. My bastarding eyes hurt. Isk laundering 4t ignore
Xaldor	Posted - 2007.11.26 03:46:00 - [520] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Xaldor I don't think it is a huge problem, damage type is mostly a PvE thing, PvP ships typically have no resistance boosts or heavy resistance boosts which tend to even out the resistances because of diminishing returns of the boost values. Either way, doesn't make much of a difference for PvP. What? No. I think what he means is that PvP = highist average resist = what people do PvE = highest NPC damage type resist = what people do. Either way, that guy never used a amarr ship vs 92.5% resist minmatar ships, so I am trying to work out what his meaning is When you fight a PvP tank he will have high resists across the board, not 90s every with one open at 0. There is typically only a minor difference in resists, Ie my Drake has about 85% resists across the board, give or take a few percent here or there... what damage type you hit me with is largely irrelevant as you are looking at a trivial difference overall. You can hit me with Em or thermal or kinetic or explosion it is all the same. For missions and rats there are significant differences in resists, that is the main disadvantage of lasers or hybrids, when you fight something that is em/thermal resistant or kinetic/thermal resistant for hybrids then your dps drops off big time. That is the advantage of missiles and to a lesser extent projectiles for PvE. There should be an insignificant difference for PvP.

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.26 03:58:00 - [521] Edited by: Goumindong on 26/11/2007 03:59:40 Originally by: Xaldor When you fight a PvP tank he will have high resists across the board, not 90s every with one open at 0. There is typically only a minor difference in resists, Ie my Drake has about 85% resists across the board, give or take a few percent here or there... what damage type you hit me with is largely irrelevant as you are looking at a trivial difference overall. You can hit me with Em or thermal or kinetic or explosion it is all the same. For missions and rats there are significant differences in resists, that is the main disadvantage of lasers or hybrids, when you fight something that is em/thermal resistant or kinetic/thermal resistant for hybrids then your dps drops off big time. That is the advantage of missiles and to a lesser extent projectiles for PvE. There should be an insignificant difference for PvP. Yea, you're wrong. Your Drake has at the very least a thermal hole and if it doesnt, it probably sucks. ED: The difference between 85% and 82% is a 20% increase in damage taken. You have holes you just dont know how to identify them.
watermelon420	Posted - 2007.11.26 04:22:00 - [522] signs I think we Amarr's should return to our former glory. Seriously, why did CCP make us that weak, your analasys crushed my pride of being an Amarr pilot. I thought CCP where paid to BALANCE the game not nerf a race so bad that no one in their right mind would pick. I hope trinity fixes this underpowered race...
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.26 08:24:00 - [523] Originally by: watermelon420 I hope trinity fixes this underpowered race... Dude - its called Trinity for a Reason - Trinity meaning Three powerful, which is Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar! CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar!
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:10:00 - [524] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Dude - its called Trinity for a Reason - Trinity meaning Three powerful, which is Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar! Lets hope for the best - a Trinity it union of caldary missiles (half done) gallente drones (1\4 done) and speed of minmanar (hope for it) in one godlike race (quess who?).
Ulric Denrai Amarr The Secret Fleet Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:22:00 - [525] Signed / Good post ,for those 16% of eve members that is a Amarr. Now you know why
Xaldor	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:37:00 - [526] Originally by: Goumindong Yea, you're wrong. Your Drake has at the very least a thermal hole and if it doesnt, it probably sucks. ED: The difference between 85% and 82% is a 20% increase in damage taken. You have holes you just dont know how to identify them. Well, I was confusing my Drake with Rokh but here are my two tank ships. My Drake: EM: 77.2% Thermal: 81.8% Kinetic: 71.9% Explosive: 81.3% Less than 10% difference at best. My Rokh: EM: 79.3% Thermal: 83.5% Kinetic: 87.6% Explosive: 84.5% About 8% difference. Would there be a massive difference with being able to choose the damage type?
Hermosa Diosas The-Secret-Service Retribution.	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:25:00 - [527] Edited by: Hermosa Diosas on 26/11/2007 14:25:41 Yes amaar and lasers really suck big time I had a T2 HAC Zealot sniper fiiter, T2 Heavy Beams, lots of T2 Heat sinks, Tracking Enhancers and Trackign Computers, purely for damage no tank..Aurora lasers Agressed a BC from 100km and you know what 80% of the time with all those tracking mods etc it did nearly no damage y missing!! , nadda!! And ive got damn good gunnery skills and everything else so its not the nublet factor!! CCP Sort this out what an absolute waste of money and time setting these up, its supposed to be an HAC wit T2 fittings for god sake and does hardly no damage..
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:30:00 - [528] Originally by: Xaldor Would there be a massive difference with being able to choose the damage type? Yes. E.G I fire 100 damage at a target. If they have 99% resist, they take 1 point of damage. Now if they had 98% resist, they take 2 points of damage. That is a 100% increase in damage taken done by a single 1% of resist. Armour tankers use EAMN/DC so EM is highist resist. Shield tankers use Invul + EM harnders so EM is usually 2nd highist resist on a 2 Invul, 1 Em setup, which is what Pvpers who shield tank tend to use. Most pvpers armour tank so you are doing almost half EM damage straight off the bat, and it is this that hurts Amarr. -- Billion Isk Mission
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:40:00 - [529] Originally by: Xaldor Originally by: Goumindong Yea, you're wrong. Your Drake has at the very least a thermal hole and if it doesnt, it probably sucks. ED: The difference between 85% and 82% is a 20% increase in damage taken. You have holes you just dont know how to identify them. Well, I was confusing my Drake with Rokh but here are my two tank ships. My Drake: EM: 77.2% Thermal: 81.8% Kinetic: 71.9% Explosive: 81.3% Less than 10% difference at best. You take 26.2% more EM damage than EX damage. You take 23% more kin damage than EM damage. You take 54% more kin damage than ex damage. I would say it makes a pretty significant difference.
Xaldor	Posted - 2007.11.27 04:58:00 - [530] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Xaldor Originally by: Goumindong Yea, you're wrong. Your Drake has at the very least a thermal hole and if it doesnt, it probably sucks. ED: The difference between 85% and 82% is a 20% increase in damage taken. You have holes you just dont know how to identify them. Well, I was confusing my Drake with Rokh but here are my two tank ships. My Drake: EM: 77.2% Thermal: 81.8% Kinetic: 71.9% Explosive: 81.3% Less than 10% difference at best. You take 26.2% more EM damage than EX damage. You take 23% more kin damage than EM damage. You take 54% more kin damage than ex damage. I would say it makes a pretty significant difference. While the percentiles are nice for min/maxers in practicality it has no real bearing. I am being shot at by Ship A and Ship B, both ships are capable of doing 1000dps, ship A can choose my weakest resist, Ship B can only hit my strongest resist. My weakest resist is EM, of the 1k dps I am hit for 228 damage, the other ships hits me for explosive damage and only inflicts 187 damage. While the nerdometer says that is 22% less damage the fact is I can tank 800 dps so wtf does it matter if you are doing 187 ot 228 damage? They can both shoot at me and they are still not going to get anywhere in a hurry. If there was no tanking in Eve and ships just had finite amount of health be it shields, armour or structure then the parity between damage types and those that can choose and those that can't would have a far greater impact. It might be more of an issue in very small gang PvP combats but in mass combat it is irrelevant. It is more of a PvE issue, I wouldn't like to be doing missions relying on lasers to do the killing.

P0etank	Posted - 2007.11.27 05:13:00 - [531] /Signed
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.27 15:17:00 - [532] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 27/11/2007 15:18:11 Originally by: Xaldor While the percentiles are nice for min/maxers in practicality it has no real bearing. I am being shot at by Ship A and Ship B, both ships are capable of doing 1000dps, ship A can choose my weakest resist, Ship B can only hit my strongest resist. My weakest resist is EM, of the 1k dps I am hit for 228 damage, the other ships hits me for explosive damage and only inflicts 187 damage. While the nerdometer says that is 22% less damage the fact is I can tank 800 dps so wtf does it matter if you are doing 187 ot 228 damage? They can both shoot at me and they are still not going to get anywhere in a hurry. If there was no tanking in Eve and ships just had finite amount of health be it shields, armour or structure then the parity between damage types and those that can choose and those that can't would have a far greater impact. It might be more of an issue in very small gang PvP combats but in mass combat it is irrelevant. It is more of a PvE issue, I wouldn't like to be doing missions relying on lasers to do the killing. Eh? You saying Amarr are ok on PvE because you shield tank when doing missions on a drake? You are aware that angels with 73% EM resist on shield, but around 40% on explosive creates a problem to those who cannot choose damagetypes. PvE relies on being able to hit the enemy with their weakist resist and being able to tank the damagetype they throw at you. Sure, Amarr can tank their damagetype, but can they stuggle to kill non-blood/sansha rats. PvP relises upon the highist average resist with the given number of free slots. This means that EANM's insted of active hardners are more competitive as it gives a higher average resist. Amarr lasers were balanced before EANM's were changed with Armour Compensation skills, so bam, Amarr do pretty much half damage to anyone who uses Compensation skilled effected EANM setups. Thats the problem, not your drake! / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Xaldor	Posted - 2007.11.27 15:44:00 - [533] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 27/11/2007 15:18:11 Originally by: Xaldor While the percentiles are nice for min/maxers in practicality it has no real bearing. I am being shot at by Ship A and Ship B, both ships are capable of doing 1000dps, ship A can choose my weakest resist, Ship B can only hit my strongest resist. My weakest resist is EM, of the 1k dps I am hit for 228 damage, the other ships hits me for explosive damage and only inflicts 187 damage. While the nerdometer says that is 22% less damage the fact is I can tank 800 dps so wtf does it matter if you are doing 187 ot 228 damage? They can both shoot at me and they are still not going to get anywhere in a hurry. If there was no tanking in Eve and ships just had finite amount of health be it shields, armour or structure then the parity between damage types and those that can choose and those that can't would have a far greater impact. It might be more of an issue in very small gang PvP combats but in mass combat it is irrelevant. It is more of a PvE issue, I wouldn't like to be doing missions relying on lasers to do the killing. Eh? You saying Amarr are ok on PvE because you shield tank when doing missions on a drake? You are aware that angels with 73% EM resist on shield, but around 40% on explosive creates a problem to those who cannot choose damagetypes. PvE relies on being able to hit the enemy with their weakist resist and being able to tank the damagetype they throw at you. Sure, Amarr can tank their damagetype, but can they stuggle to kill non-blood/sansha rats. PvP relises upon the highist average resist with the given number of free slots. This means that EANM's insted of active hardners are more competitive as it gives a higher average resist. Amarr lasers were balanced before EANM's were changed with Armour Compensation skills, so bam, Amarr do pretty much half damage to anyone who uses Compensation skilled effected EANM setups. Thats the problem, not your drake! lol how did you get to that conclusion from what I wrote? I said lasers were okay for PvE? I said that is the area where lasers are most problematic. You are repeating exactly what I said in relation to PvP, anyone who has any kind of tank worth noting will balance out their resists so there is no major hole and will more than likely be able to tank at least 3x what you can possibly dish out with a maximum dps ship so the damage types are largely irrelevant. If a ship is not built to tank then it doesn't really matter where the hole is because basic resists with a subpar tank is not going to slow your death down by much, you can either tank or you can't. In large scale fights nobody can realistically tank outside of a capital ship. Lasers are difficult to fit and take a ton of cap to do good damage, I agree they need tweaking but I don't think the damage types is a major problem. If you are struggling to damage a ship with em/thermal then probably everyone else is having the same issues.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.27 20:06:00 - [534] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/11/2007 20:06:26 Originally by: Xaldor While the percentiles are nice for min/maxers in practicality it has no real bearing. I am being shot at by Ship A and Ship B, both ships are capable of doing 1000dps, ship A can choose my weakest resist, Ship B can only hit my strongest resist. My weakest resist is EM, of the 1k dps I am hit for 228 damage, the other ships hits me for explosive damage and only inflicts 187 damage. While the nerdometer says that is 22% less damage the fact is I can tank 800 dps so wtf does it matter if you are doing 187 ot 228 damage? They can both shoot at me and they are still not going to get anywhere in a hurry. If there was no tanking in Eve and ships just had finite amount of health be it shields, armour or structure then the parity between damage types and those that can choose and those that can't would have a far greater impact. It might be more of an issue in very small gang PvP combats but in mass combat it is irrelevant. It is more of a PvE issue, I wouldn't like to be doing missions relying on lasers to do the killing. 800 uniform tank means that you will absorb 1000 ex damage and 600 kin damage. EFFECTIVE. If both of them do 1000 dps, the one doing EX damage wont break your tank, the one doing Kin damage will break your tank like it was a wet noodle. Quote: If there was no tanking in Eve and ships just had finite amount of health be it shields, armour or structure then the parity between damage types and those that can choose and those that can't would have a far greater impact. It might be more of an issue in very small gang PvP combats but in mass combat it is irrelevant. It is more of a PvE issue, I wouldn't like to be doing missions relying on lasers to do the killing. Is this a joke?
lestus Amarr 5th Front enterprises DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2007.11.28 00:15:00 - [535] as a Pure Amarrian build /signed
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.28 08:04:00 - [536] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 28/11/2007 08:04:30 Originally by: Xeron Silverblade (didn't read all - so don't know if it had been mentioned) amarr had THE recon with curse/pilgrim and their nos-abilities.. but now that's gone.. you might rethink the nos-nerf maybe... i see no use in using nos now after the nerf... nossing a %age of the target's cap may be more reasonable than the implementation as it is now. concerning the op: signed. This nos thing is my biggist concearn especially with the new nos frigite coming out. I mean, who on earth is going to want a nos frig? What possible use in the real wold pvp can a nos frig have that would not be better complemented by someone having another ship? / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Agil TradeAlt	Posted - 2007.11.28 23:45:00 - [537] Originally by: daemorhedron Whups, left out a glaring reality, and that is that the amarr recons need close examination and reworking. Defently. Not only that but also the new Amarr EW ships seem kinda pointless.
Meridius Dex Amarr Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.29 03:07:00 - [538] Among the Trinity patch notes released so far, is there ANY indication that any of these issues are being addressed with the new update? -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.29 12:10:00 - [539] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 29/11/2007 12:11:25 Originally by: Meridius Dex Among the Trinity patch notes released so far, is there ANY indication that any of these issues are being addressed with the new update? No indication at all. In fact, it looks like the existing half decent amarr ships are going to get further nerfed, and a lot of new Amarr ships that are getting added in are compleatly useless compared to what other races are getting. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.11.30 12:12:00 - [540] Trinity patchnotes results - no light in the end of a tunnel Gallentians: nefred 2 ships (myrm and eos) but new fraction drones, new drone commands, improved ares, etc. - I consider that they have light boost after all. Caldary: many improvements in all (agility of the ships, the new torpedos, new bonuses for ecm recons, cap reduction for ECM, etc.) Minmatars and amarrs have allmost no direct changes. But it is 2 races that need them. It is not even Trinity - it is Power of Two

Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.30 12:18:00 - [541] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 30/11/2007 12:18:24 Originally by: PeacefullNub Minmatars and amarrs have allmost no direct changes. But it is 2 races that need them. It is not even Trinity - it is Power of Two Amarr EW will be getting a 50% reduction nerf on both atributes. Scripts will juggle the 50% around between atributes though. This makes tracking disruptrers compleatly useless.... Unless of course, it could effect missles and falloff. If it did that then Amarr EW would be useful. Amarr are getting a EW frig. Its EW power is Neuts. I have no idea why anyone would fly such a thing since there are better ships that outclass it, as the frig lack cap to sustain any proper role / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Talio ZomB	Posted - 2007.11.30 19:19:00 - [542] I would just like to say thats a nice analyisis if gank vs gank, tank vs tank, but a lot of your setups arent practical, they might see use on sisi, but on tq toys are needed. didnt see the trimark plate setups getting tested, I did skim read
BekStorm	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:29:00 - [543] Originally by: The ArchWarder Significant points raised Interesting Approach Great read Not really all the long Energy weapon ships definatly need SOMETHING Dont think CCP can ignore this one Ditto. well written and constructive post.
Veng3ance Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:52:00 - [544] WOW ** anyone who disagrees with the op. If you don't fly Amarr don't argue. The frustration of running out of cap from ONLY firing weapons is BEYOND ANNOYING. Actually, just thinking about it makes me want to BURN THIS MOTHER**** DOWN!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:51:00 - [545] I dont agree with the OP
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:09:00 - [546] Originally by: Goumindong I dont agree with the OP What is it that you dont agree with? / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.01 08:04:00 - [547] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Goumindong I dont agree with the OP What is it that you dont agree with? The part about it being blatantly misleading. If there is one area that Amarr dont have problems in, its ganking battleships with pulse lasers.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.01 10:13:00 - [548] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Goumindong I dont agree with the OP What is it that you dont agree with? The part about it being blatantly misleading. If there is one area that Amarr dont have problems in, its ganking battleships with pulse lasers. I dont understand. Before EANM's, lasers did same damage as they do now. EANM's nerfed laser damage, as everyone who wanted to remain competitive changed their tank setups. So lasers do 25-35% less damage than they used to when they were balanced (calculating the EM potion of extra resist people now have). To deny this now is not logical / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Error404	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:03:00 - [549] You are sad and have no life, i suggest you go out and get laid Virgin.
Ooyama Caldari Rastana CMP	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:12:00 - [550] Edited by: Ooyama on 01/12/2007 11:12:42 Well,,, being a (now) mostly Amarr specced char, and flying a baddon, which i enjoy,, i feel it's about time something IS done. I've reached a point where i can fire my lasers for quite a while before running outta cap, but if i need to run reppers at the same time i'm screwed! I know that problems occur on other ships aswell,, but not as fast! To anyone disagreeing ; imagine your rails/blasters/arty's/autoshotties/launchers using cap like lasers,, while offcourse using cap for reppers/shieldbosters!! If you don't see any problem there, start flying Amarr!!! Ooyama. Originally by: Bimjo you sir are quite right my humble apologies I shall park my navy raven in 0.0 for you to come and destroy with your ducktaped missile launcher on your shuttle

Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:32:00 - [551] Originally by: Error404 You are sad and have no life, i suggest you go out and get laid Virgin. Quoting the lamest post I've seen all day. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Liam Liam	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:40:00 - [552] Amarr has had it . It isn't getting fixed yes it might get a small boost here and there but the devs don't see a fundemental problem. What to do 1. Advise all new starts not to train Amarr ships / weapons 2. Crosstrain into something else ... just got minmitar frigate 5 .. lol The reasonable man adapts himself to the world The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Karjala Inc. Onnenpyora	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:14:00 - [553] Quote: bear in mind here that Caldari ships also require no cap I detect epic fail there. Anyone?
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:21:00 - [554] Originally by: Liam Liam yes it might get a small boost here and there amarrs is only race that need many small boosts allmost in all aspects of their ships and guns. (only khanid ships are relativly ballanced... for caldary) but many smal boosts = average Originally by: Liam Liam 1. Advise all new starts not to train Amarr ships / weapons 2. Crosstrain into something else ... just got minmitar frigate 5 .. lol We also do so. But its not the solution of a problem. Originally by: Liam Liam The reasonable man adapts himself to the world The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself You want an easy life? Go play caldary from start - no need to cross-train from amarr build at all. This phrase does not concern to amarr. Amarrinas adapt world to themselves. We choose the most difficult way - to be proud of our victory in the end.
nthexwn Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.01 13:08:00 - [555] Heh, I remember when I played EVE. It's that game where you pay CCP to let your Amarr character sit around training skills while you wait for Gallente to be nerfed so you'll stand a fighting chance in PVP, and in the meantime you play other games right?
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.01 13:26:00 - [556] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 01/12/2007 13:26:13 Originally by: Error404 You are sad and have no life, i suggest you go out and get laid Virgin. I would, were it not for the fact that my Geddon caps out after 30 seconds! / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.01 13:30:00 - [557] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 01/12/2007 13:36:17 Originally by: Liam Liam Amarr has had it . It isn't getting fixed yes it might get a small boost here and there but the devs don't see a fundemental problem. What to do 1. Advise all new starts not to train Amarr ships / weapons 2. Crosstrain into something else ... just got minmitar frigate 5 .. lol The reasonable man adapts himself to the world The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself hello Mr "One should take punishment with a smile" Sorry - that only works if you have the power to control the subject matter. If I went into Pizza hut and found the pizza's to be great but the coke to be flat, do I adapt myself by drinking flat cola? In that case, I have no power to get fresh cola, therefore I make my view knowns so that the business can fix its problems, because if you dont have problems, then you are not a business! Same thing here. Amarr are flat, though the pizza is nice. Therefore I am making my views known. Being asertive is very important, and the person who adapts passively to everthing is nothing more than a fool. After all, look at every nerf to have hit over the past year - each and every one was a result of someone spotting a flat coke. Eve will never have perfect balace. Its not ment to, and even for the next 10 years, there will always be things to change. But what is happening with Amarr is a complete joke, and needs to be looked at. The fizz has long gone, and the Devs needs to re-balance Amarr in todays PvP climate. Not boost, or OMGWTF, but just make sure that the coke I am buying is actually a fizzy drink and not a stale fluid. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Potes Amarr Dkiller Delta Force Corp. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.01 14:04:00 - [558] signed!! Amarr need balancing love! specifically laser using cap gimped ships! and for f*s sakes fix the bldy recons! Altho following statistics us amarrians make up a piddly small percentage of the playerbase CCP MUST HEAR US?!??! and if they arnt doing anything r they just ignoring a percentage of the playerbase cos they all fly caldari? rgrds Potes
Legio Praetor	Posted - 2007.12.01 15:53:00 - [559] I just realised i made the same mistake in EvE as i did in WoW... I picked the Amarr in EvE, and i made a paladin in WoW. They both have the same problem it seems... Underpowered, unloved and ignored by the devs. Signed.
Trind2222 Amarr Celestial Pillagers Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.01 16:18:00 - [560] To have a cap bonus on lasers so we can use same amount of cap as low skilled hybryd turrets do not work this ccp cal balance? Mids sloth and to much high sloth we want more mids sloth. Abandon is best ship amarr have why it do not have cap bonus but a damage bonus hmm how odd is bs before trinty that have damagebounus. Ok there another one but because you use so much cap it do not help is famous geddon whit rof bonus so it can spew out cap. Some solusion is remove the utility high slot add mid sloth remove cap bonus is do not balance amarr it kills amarr reduce fitting req on laser cap req and fix amarr listen to players flying amarr.

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.01 16:46:00 - [561] Originally by: Jonny JoJo I dont understand. Before EANM's, lasers did same damage as they do now. EANM's nerfed laser damage, as everyone who wanted to remain competitive changed their tank setups. So lasers do 25-35% less damage than they used to when they were balanced (calculating the EM potion of extra resist people now have). To deny this now is not logical Before comp skills lasers were horribly overpowered, ships had 64% of the hit points they did now[or possibly less], and heat sinks were not heavily stacking penalized.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.01 17:26:00 - [562] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Jonny JoJo I dont understand. Before EANM's, lasers did same damage as they do now. EANM's nerfed laser damage, as everyone who wanted to remain competitive changed their tank setups. So lasers do 25-35% less damage than they used to when they were balanced (calculating the EM potion of extra resist people now have). To deny this now is not logical Before comp skills lasers were horribly overpowered, ships had 64% of the hit points they did now[or possibly less], and heat sinks were not heavily stacking penalized. Oh yeah, thats true. I forgot when they boosted every ships hitpoints by 50%. This means more cap needed to make a kill, even if you ignore the high EM resist on armour / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.01 18:28:00 - [563] Cap isnt the issue to make a kill, its time relative to time to close.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.02 00:52:00 - [564] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 02/12/2007 00:53:03 Originally by: Goumindong Cap isnt the issue to make a kill, its time relative to time to close. Time to close is an issue since for a amarr to fight, it has to MWD away from the hostile while keeping it in scrambler range at 20-24k. Except your guns use so much cap that you need 2 cap boosters to support this style of play. Cap is a big issue and even for a sniper Abaddon, that can sustain 1 gun with max cap skills, do you really expect people to beleive cap is not a issue for Amarr? / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
NUKUNNI TRADING Amarr Antares Frontier The Fifth Race	Posted - 2007.12.02 01:38:00 - [565] 1) Please sort out beam laser range so that they can compare with other sniper weapons 2) A little bit more damage for lasers so that they can hurt the 85% of PvPers who armor tank 3) Repair the damage that's been done to the Curse / Pilgrim 4) Stop making us learn heathen weapon systems (ie rockets, HAMs) 5) A real bonus to ships instead of a cap 'bonus' that doesnt go nearly half way to resolving the cap issues that the supposed 'cap race' suffers from I think that covers it as far as I know..... oh yeah, tracking disruptors suck too (apparently) but tbh, they seem such a stupid system compared to other EW systems that I've never bothered with them. A damp seems far more useful, but oh, not really enough slots considering you need to use what few meds you have for cap mods to 'try' to keep your guns going while you soak up damage.
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.02 02:25:00 - [566] Very Interesting post but I'd like to point out that: In your statement about shield tanking allows you to do anything you like in the lows is an advantage will so is armor tanking were you can use mid slots for offensive modules like web,scram, painter, tracking disruptors..etc etc.. And the fact that you used all 8 slots of a scorpion for tank which no one would do.. whats the point if you use it and not jam something? And final point is armor tanking is better than shield tanking in fleet fights for the most part because of lag. By the time your shield starts showing your being hit your normally already in armor :P at least when your armor tanking and see your shield taking its you know its time to turn on the armor rep and align for warp out. -John
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.02 02:58:00 - [567] Well having read the OP i desided to crunch the numbers .. With al skills at lvl 5 and 3 dmg mods fitted on each ship heres what i get with the tier 3 bs's. These are all with highest dmg t2 ammo. Dmg Mega - 949dps Abaddon - 929dps Mael - 890dps rokh - 867dps So the abaddon comes second in the dmg stakes here by a mere 20dps. Ina fight the abaddon (and all amarr ships) have one advantage over every other race which everyone seems to forget. They can switch ammo types to the best one for teh job in a fraction of the time. Which means there guns are active more maing them the most effective. Also factor in that lasers dont need regular reloads in the fight (and if if your crystals do pop it is a fraction of the ime to add new ones) gives the abaddon a better effective dps. If the other ships had to reload 3 times during the fight thats 30 seconds of not shooting.. so thats 929x30 = 27870 extra dmg the abaddon does in that fight over any of the other ships. I havent included drones in this dmg because i for one never get to use drones. I am a low sec pirate and drones get popped by gate guns so arent worth using to teh averae pirate. Range Abaddon - 25km Rokh - 16.3km Mega - 13.1km Mael - 13km So abaddon is clear winner here with lasers having much better range than other guns. Tank Well you cant really compare armor tanks with shield tanks. Tere are far too many difference's to factor in. Armor 1st Abaddon 2nd Mega Shield 1st Rohk 2d Mael usin the omni tank of 2x eanm 1xdcu and 1 repper on the armor tankers teh abaddon is far better than the mega its resist bonus's give it a much more effective tank. So in conclusion, after doin the maths myself i cannot see what is worng with amarr and lasers. Do the maths yourself and you will see that in a normal fight the abaddon is far better than the other tier 3 battleships. Am i missing something here ? whats broken?
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:12:00 - [568] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 02/12/2007 03:14:15 Originally by: Aranbaal Well having read the OP i desided to crunch the numbers .. With al skills at lvl 5 and 3 dmg mods fitted on each ship heres what i get with the tier 3 bs's. These are all with highest dmg t2 ammo. Dmg Mega - 949dps Abaddon - 929dps Mael - 890dps rokh - 867dps So the abaddon comes second in the dmg stakes here by a mere 20dps. Ina fight the abaddon (and all amarr ships) have one advantage over every other race which everyone seems to forget. They can switch ammo types to the best one for teh job in a fraction of the time. Which means there guns are active more maing them the most effective. Also factor in that lasers dont need regular reloads in the fight (and if if your crystals do pop it is a fraction of the ime to add new ones) gives the abaddon a better effective dps. If the other ships had to reload 3 times during the fight thats 30 seconds of not shooting.. so thats 929x30 = 27870 extra dmg the abaddon does in that fight over any of the other ships. I havent included drones in this dmg because i for one never get to use drones. I am a low sec pirate and drones get popped by gate guns so arent worth using to teh averae pirate. Range Abaddon - 25km Rokh - 16.3km Mega - 13.1km Mael - 13km So abaddon is clear winner here with lasers having much better range than other guns. Tank Well you cant really compare armor tanks with shield tanks. Tere are far too many difference's to factor in. Armor 1st Abaddon 2nd Mega Shield 1st Rohk 2d Mael usin the omni tank of 2x eanm 1xdcu and 1 repper on the armor tankers teh abaddon is far better than the mega its resist bonus's give it a much more effective tank. So in conclusion, after doin the maths myself i cannot see what is worng with amarr and lasers. Do the maths yourself and you will see that in a normal fight the abaddon is far better than the other tier 3 battleships. Am i missing something here ? whats broken? 1. Crystal take longer than conventional ammo to change if you have more than 4 turrets. This is because all slots load up the same crystal, as crystals load up differently from conventional ammo, as t2/faction crystals (i.E pvp crystals) they load up in different stacks. Also, players need to carry 16 minimum, sometimes as much as 32 or 48 crystals (to cover long and shortrange, and a backup set should they blow) this is 40-60mil in ammo. Next, DPS. What is the DPS does Amarr do? Thats right, EM, which is the highist resist on Armour tankers and the second highist resit on Shield tankers. (2 invul II = 1 EM hardner) Now work out the real DPS done after resist - you will see Amarr doing almost half real damage. Range. your chart is inaccurate. Rokh is longest range, able to hit 249km in sniper mode. Amarr with long range ammo need 3-4 tracking mods to be able to hit 160+. Except they have no slots free after fitting mods and heatsinks/cap mods. unless they want to cut back on recharge/damage, which is what they are doing currently. other races do not have this as a problem. Tank. Abaddon has resist bonus, so does rokh. Shield tankers are better than armour tankers for tank function, so Rokh wins here. Abaddon resist bonus does not mean much if it has to throw slots away for cap recharge/fitting as a player could put in a EANM and get the same effect. In your post, if we follow your logic, a Rokh using tach is the best ship for range + tank. Obviously this is not correct, now is it? / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:36:00 - [569] Originally by: Aranbaal stuff Mega is not a teir 3 battleship. __________________________________
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:38:00 - [570] Edited by: daemorhedron on 02/12/2007 03:39:08 Originally by: NUKUNNI TRADING 1) Please sort out beam laser range so that they can compare with other sniper weapons Sorry, can't agree with this one. You have your unique benefits and draw backs, you can't exactly go around demanding to have the benefits of the other races in addition to your own. Originally by: NUKUNNI TRADING 2) A little bit more damage for lasers so that they can hurt the 85% of PvPers who armor tank Again, just can't agree. You absolutely slaughter shields and have a tough time with armor. It's the trade off you make. Fit drones, ewar, nos, neuts, etc to compliment your damage if you're having such a tough time. Originally by: NUKUNNI TRADING 3) Repair the damage that's been done to the Curse / Pilgrim Iffy on this one. To be brutally honest, Nos went from a 'must have' to 'who cares'. I feel it's balanced, but it did take away from the uniqueness of the Amarr recons. Most curse/pilgrim pilots have been able to adapt, but there are other minor issues with the ship in general. Rework yes, but you don't be getting your unstoppable recon back, sorry. Originally by: NUKUNNI TRADING 4) Stop making us learn heathen weapon systems (ie rockets, HAMs) Truth for sure here. This is a relatively lame addressing of some really serious issues that was pretty insulting. Fix lasers already, it's really not that hard. Originally by: NUKUNNI TRADING 5) A real bonus to ships instead of a cap 'bonus' that doesnt go nearly half way to resolving the cap issues that the supposed 'cap race' suffers from abso-farkin-lutely YES PLEASE. Again this is the only immediate Amarr related issue that NEEDS fixing. Everything else lies in lasers, and we can argue further minutia down the road. Originally by: NUKUNNI TRADING oh yeah, tracking disruptors suck too (apparently) Not at all. I can't really speak as to what's coming with trinity, but they're incredibly handy and really one of the few EW systems that are already balanced and make 'sense'. Whole other issue to get into though, so that's all I'll say on it for now. Long story short, fix laser fittings, fix laser cap usage, change the amarrian laser cap usage bonus to something useful plskthx.

Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:41:00 - [571] Originally by: Jonny JoJo 1. Crystal take longer than conventional ammo to change if you have more than 4 turrets. This is because all slots load up the same crystal, as crystals load up differently from conventional ammo, as t2/faction crystals (i.E pvp crystals) they load up in different stacks. Also, players need to carry 16 minimum, sometimes as much as 32 or 48 crystals (to cover long and shortrange, and a backup set should they blow) this is 40-60mil in ammo. Next, DPS. What is the DPS does Amarr do? Thats right, EM, which is the highist resist on Armour tankers and the second highist resit on Shield tankers. (2 invul II = 1 EM hardner) Now work out the real DPS done after resist - you will see Amarr doing almost half real damage. Range. your chart is inaccurate. Rokh is longest range, able to hit 249km in sniper mode. Amarr with long range ammo need 3-4 tracking mods to be able to hit 160+. Except they have no slots free after fitting mods and heatsinks/cap mods. unless they want to cut back on recharge/damage, which is what they are doing currently. other races do not have this as a problem. Tank. Abaddon has resist bonus, so does rokh. Shield tankers are better than armour tankers for tank function, so Rokh wins here. Abaddon resist bonus does not mean much if it has to throw slots away for cap recharge/fitting as a player could put in a EANM and get the same effect. In your post, if we follow your logic, a Rokh using tach is the best ship for range + tank. Obviously this is not correct, now is it? Well you came out with exactly the responce expected. Firstly go actually read my post. Tanking .. i stated you cant compare armor and shield tanks they are completely different and work in totally different ways. That is why i state of the armor tankers the abaddon is the best. As for dmg type .. so amarr do the highest resists on armor tanks, so you say thi smenas they nead a buff. Well mimmi do the 2 highest resists of shield tanks which you have yourself admit the shield tank bs tanks better than the armor tank one, so this means by your own logic mimmi needs buff to dmg also. Changing a crystal - what about 1-2 seconds Changing ammo - 10 seconds Big differnce. Also you say you need to carry many different ammo types to be effective at different ranges, so does everyone else, difference is others cant really do it as amo takes up far more room than crystals. Ok so how is my range maths flawed? I stated all ships were fit in exactly the same style. guns and 3x dmg mod. under that fit the abaddon has better range with its high dmg ammo as my post states. I didnt fit sniper fits to the ships. So your arguemnt of dps needs buff cause of dmg type works exactly the same for minmatar as well. And as you stated shields tank better than armor so mimmi dmg must be even more broken than amarr dmg, by your logic. Your arguement of amarr being broken based on what you are saying now seems very flawed .. Do all the math yourself and see the results. Every race has benifits and deficits. Being minmatar means i have to skill both armor and shield tank so my skill tree is longer to master my own race and i have shorter range than others in normal fights, while doin less dps than most. But i dont complain i learn to fit arround the flaws of my race.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:51:00 - [572] Originally by: Aranbaal Originally by: Jonny JoJo 1. Crystal take longer than conventional ammo to change if you have more than 4 turrets. This is because all slots load up the same crystal, as crystals load up differently from conventional ammo, as t2/faction crystals (i.E pvp crystals) they load up in different stacks. Also, players need to carry 16 minimum, sometimes as much as 32 or 48 crystals (to cover long and shortrange, and a backup set should they blow) this is 40-60mil in ammo. Next, DPS. What is the DPS does Amarr do? Thats right, EM, which is the highist resist on Armour tankers and the second highist resit on Shield tankers. (2 invul II = 1 EM hardner) Now work out the real DPS done after resist - you will see Amarr doing almost half real damage. Range. your chart is inaccurate. Rokh is longest range, able to hit 249km in sniper mode. Amarr with long range ammo need 3-4 tracking mods to be able to hit 160+. Except they have no slots free after fitting mods and heatsinks/cap mods. unless they want to cut back on recharge/damage, which is what they are doing currently. other races do not have this as a problem. Tank. Abaddon has resist bonus, so does rokh. Shield tankers are better than armour tankers for tank function, so Rokh wins here. Abaddon resist bonus does not mean much if it has to throw slots away for cap recharge/fitting as a player could put in a EANM and get the same effect. In your post, if we follow your logic, a Rokh using tach is the best ship for range + tank. Obviously this is not correct, now is it? Well you came out with exactly the responce expected. Firstly go actually read my post. Tanking .. i stated you cant compare armor and shield tanks they are completely different and work in totally different ways. That is why i state of the armor tankers the abaddon is the best. As for dmg type .. so amarr do the highest resists on armor tanks, so you say thi smenas they nead a buff. Well mimmi do the 2 highest resists of shield tanks which you have yourself admit the shield tank bs tanks better than the armor tank one, so this means by your own logic mimmi needs buff to dmg also. Changing a crystal - what about 1-2 seconds Changing ammo - 10 seconds Big differnce. Also you say you need to carry many different ammo types to be effective at different ranges, so does everyone else, difference is others cant really do it as amo takes up far more room than crystals. Ok so how is my range maths flawed? I stated all ships were fit in exactly the same style. guns and 3x dmg mod. under that fit the abaddon has better range with its high dmg ammo as my post states. I didnt fit sniper fits to the ships. So your arguemnt of dps needs buff cause of dmg type works exactly the same for minmatar as well. And as you stated shields tank better than armor so mimmi dmg must be even more broken than amarr dmg, by your logic. Your arguement of amarr being broken based on what you are saying now seems very flawed .. Do all the math yourself and see the results. Every race has benifits and deficits. Being minmatar means i have to skill both armor and shield tank so my skill tree is longer to master my own race and i have shorter range than others in normal fights, while doin less dps than most. But i dont complain i learn to fit arround the flaws of my race. Look, you dont fly Amarr so you havent got a clue. Try fitting a Amarr ship out. For snipers, you lack fitting. For tank, being able to have enough grid to fit guns and dual reps matters more than theoretical mumbo jumbo. Please, fly Amarr and you will understand how wrong you are. Another example. Range. A amarr ship needs 3-4 tracking mods to hit 160km+ in falloff. A rokh if it had 3 tacking mods could hit 249km max limit. See the problem? Amarr need 2-3 fitting mods depending on setup, so you have to either drop tachyons, and thus do less dps, or stick with lower range or less heatsinks/cap recharge et / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:58:00 - [573] Originally by: Aranbaal Changing a crystal - what about 1-2 seconds Changing ammo - 10 seconds Big differnce. Also you say you need to carry many different ammo types to be effective at different ranges, so does everyone else, difference is others cant really do it as amo takes up far more room than crystals. Ok so how is my range maths flawed?. Let me answer this once and for all. 1 turrets loads all turrets crystals at once. So its not like reloading ammo, oh hell no! You have to wait 2-3 seconds for each laser to load before moving onto the next. If you dont, you end up with empty slots. CTRL-R also has the same problem. 8 x 2 seconds = 16 seconds vs 10 seconds for conventional ammo. Next Crystals cost as much as a battleship (after insurance). If a raven blew up dropping 40mil torps, how would you feel? / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:06:00 - [574] Edited by: Aranbaal on 02/12/2007 04:10:22 So just got an amarr corp mate to check how long it takes hm to switch out crystals in his abaddon, total of abotu 5-6 seconds to select each one and switch teh crystal .. actuall putting in the crystal takes abotu 1 second. So on my maelstrom i have to go allong and switch out ammo on each gun seperatly just as the abaddon guy does wight take 5-6 seconds just the same and then i find myself still waitng for new ammo to load and being shot by an abaddon that has already switched out its. So i dont see what your saying. Afer testing i see it as far quicker to change crystals than normal ammo. Only thing i can think of is you must be doin somethign wrong if it is taking you longer. Reading your post it also seems that you seem to be saying that normal guns all switch out at once.. ? have you never fitted normal guns you have toi select and switch ammo in everyone seporatly just the same as lasers do.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:21:00 - [575] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 02/12/2007 04:24:21 Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 02/12/2007 04:23:50 Originally by: Aranbaal Edited by: Aranbaal on 02/12/2007 04:10:22 So just got an amarr corp mate to check how long it takes hm to switch out crystals in his abaddon, total of abotu 5-6 seconds to select each one and switch teh crystal .. actuall putting in the crystal takes abotu 1 second. So on my maelstrom i have to go allong and switch out ammo on each gun seperatly just as the abaddon guy does wight take 5-6 seconds just the same and then i find myself still waitng for new ammo to load and being shot by an abaddon that has already switched out its. So i dont see what your saying. Afer testing i see it as far quicker to change crystals than normal ammo. Only thing i can think of is you must be doin somethign wrong if it is taking you longer. Reading your post it also seems that you seem to be saying that normal guns all switch out at once.. ? have you never fitted normal guns you have toi select and switch ammo in everyone seporatly just the same as lasers do. Please change pvp crystals. (faction/t2) They behave differently to conventional crystals. Put them in, then and put Another set in to simulate what a pvper has to do in a battle. In other words, carry 16+ pvp crystals and then tell us your results. You will see that it is noware near 1-2 to change all 8 crystals and is of 0 benifit. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Judas Jones Amarr Black Company	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:40:00 - [576] Aranbaal is the classic case of someone who plays with quickfit and does not actually have a 'clue' when it comes to Amarr ships. Im not a offline player myself so heres some in-game basics: The Hyperion is the Gallente tier 3 BS and NOT the Megathron as you previously stated. You have failed to take resists into account, Capacitor calculations, Damage types which invaludate your ** poor effort to play Eve Offline quickfit. the Maelstrom can run a near perma tank and offers some serious firepower with changeable range and** damage type without the laggy crystal change times. In neither PvE or PvP do you warp into a combat situation and trow raw dps at someone highest number wins, considering you have to take into account, rof, drones, sp's, range, resists, capacitors, numbers, jamming, tracking etc... all these things which you seem to have no basic grasp off. The difference between a newb and n00b is that a newb will not always be one you sir are clearly the latter. Try playing the game online and try commenting on ships/weapon systems you can actually use ya muppet and then compare them.
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:46:00 - [577] The test was done switching different amarr navy crystal's and he switched a hell of allot faster than i could switch my ac ammo, he switched from mid short range (scorch are they) to multi freq. I switched from my ranged t2 ammo Barrage to my short range t2 ammo hail . which i have to be honest i dont normally carry cause its teh worst ammo in the world ... too many downsides to it faction emp is beter than it but no faction stuff is better than barrage. Sorry dude i real cant see where you are comig from, and i cant tell you now that as soon as i can fly a vag i will be skilling for the abaddon because it is the best battlehips. It outtanks and out dmgs the others if you knwo how to fit it.
The ArchWarder Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:55:00 - [578] The only way you can change a full rack (X8 guns) in under 6 seconds is if your Tech 1 crystals are stacked in your cargo hold. Because T2/ faction crystals don't stack like other ammo does means multiple guns will try to take one crystal, one gun will succeed leaving multiple guns without a crystal. in short if you try to switch t2/ faction ammo types on lasers in a hurry instead of doing them one at a time you will end up with multiple guns with no ammo in them. In order to get around this problem the standard tactic is to turn off individual guns, wait for the first gun to turn off, turn off second gun, change crystal in first ect. This takes WAY longer than 10 seconds. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Judas Jones Amarr Black Company	Posted - 2007.12.02 05:05:00 - [579] Originally by: Aranbaal The test was done switching different amarr navy crystal's and he switched a hell of allot faster than i could switch my ac ammo, he switched from mid short range (scorch are they) to multi freq. I switched from my ranged t2 ammo Barrage to my short range t2 ammo hail . which i have to be honest i dont normally carry cause its teh worst ammo in the world ... too many downsides to it faction emp is beter than it but no faction stuff is better than barrage. Sorry dude i real cant see where you are comig from, and i cant tell you now that as soon as i can fly a vag i will be skilling for the abaddon because it is the best battlehips. It outtanks and out dmgs the others if you knwo how to fit it. Good, then you will learn from experience first hand! The Maelstrom tanks better and deal better range of damage and for a longer period of time The Hyperion will rip the Abaddon damage wise, out tank it, out cap it The Rokh can out range it, tank it, cap it The Abaddon will run out of cap, there is no cap/tank/gank set-up thats worth a damm You want to PvE, train a Raven or Maelstrom You want to PvP, train a Mega or Maelstrom In fact, just train a Malestrom, good solid ship Take into consideration, EM damage/resists, cap demands, Neut/Nos, ECM, etc... and you should realise that the Abaddon is outclassed by the other higher tier BS's.
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.02 05:15:00 - [580] Edited by: Aranbaal on 02/12/2007 05:21:56 Edited by: Aranbaal on 02/12/2007 05:19:26 Originally by: Judas Jones Aranbaal is the classic case of someone who plays with quickfit and does not actually have a 'clue' when it comes to Amarr ships. Im not a offline player myself so heres some in-game basics: The Hyperion is the Gallente tier 3 BS and NOT the Megathron as you previously stated. You have failed to take resists into account, Capacitor calculations, Damage types which invaludate your ** poor effort to play Eve Offline quickfit. the Maelstrom can run a near perma tank and offers some serious firepower with changeable range and** damage type without the laggy crystal change times. In neither PvE or PvP do you warp into a combat situation and trow raw dps at someone highest number wins, considering you have to take into account, rof, drones, sp's, range, resists, capacitors, numbers, jamming, tracking etc... all these things which you seem to have no basic grasp off. The difference between a newb and n00b is that a newb will not always be one you sir are clearly the latter. Try playing the game online and try commenting on ships/weapon systems you can actually use ya muppet and then compare them. Firstly does anyone actually use quickfit anymore seem as its so far out with most things? As for capaictor caculations all run till they run out of cap boosters which means they all easy last most average fights so not an issue. Resists would affect all the dps's. so i fail to see your point with tha. And dont use the old amarr we do the highest armor resist type dmg, when as pointed out above minmatar do the highest shield resist type dmg and as stated above shield tanks are better than armor tanks so if you do all teh calculations the minmatar dps suffers most. But there is no need to go into the who resist thing. You dont knwo what ur gonna be shooting at and hwo they gonna fit in advance. As also posted above yes i forgot about the hyp, i dont fly that ship or that race at alkl and knwo very few people that do. This is a basic comparison foo all those ships with max skills involved. So sp isnt an issue, drones were left out for reason posted above, range on those fits are posted above. identical dmg fits. Rof is taken into account when working out dps so you point with this is? As a whole you post seems to make little sense. The ships were fitted identically for dmg with high dmg ammo. You cant seriously expect someone to sit down and work out what dmg your gonna do to ever ship type with ever posible fit moving at every posible speed etc..?? I fail to see any real point in your coment. All i have posted is the result of the same fit in the ships and the results are posted above. Run the numbers yourslef you will get the same result. Look at things for what they are not from a deluded one sided point of view. I have looked at what others have said an posted the fits which show what most are saying isnt true. And to judas.. If you abaddon isnt tanking better than a hyp then you have the wrong fit. Seriously it out tanks all the armor tanking bs's. 1v1 a proper fitted abaddon will take a hyp apart with no problem ... To really out dmg the abaddon the hyp needs 3x dmg mods fitted leaving on 3 slots for a tank .. 3 slot tank = no tank. Cap issues are solved with cap 800's. Yes teh maelstrom is a good ship but the abaddon is far better. i am yet to see any non faction bs be able to fit the same tank the abaddon can fit. Even fiting the exact same fit on other armor bs's the canot een come close due to the high resists of the abaddon. Seriously people rethink your fits your obviously doin something wrong.

Grim86StonE Amarr The Black Sea Pirates	Posted - 2007.12.02 05:27:00 - [581] Edited by: Grim86StonE on 02/12/2007 05:28:09 Signed on all accounts. In my oppinion, fixing a whole race is very difficult. It is very easy to imbalance the race and make it overpowered. Yet, I think everyone that has flown amarr ships reached the following conclusions: -cap issues on lasers have to be fixed or -give amarr ships more cap and more cap recharge -cap bonuses need to go and instead some real bonuses should be added -lots of fitting issues and some useless ships in pvp(curse,pilgrim) If changing something as complex as ship bonuses across the board is to difficult, at least give us the opportunity to switch damage types via new crystals. Fact is, unless amarr ships are in a gang, they are outperformed by at least 2 out of 3 of their counterparts.
Judas Jones Amarr Black Company	Posted - 2007.12.02 05:38:00 - [582] Originally by: Aranbaal .... The Abaddon can tank (I can out tank a Hyp but...) you fit a tank that can hold, cap that does not go 'flat' with some firepower, damage, track, utlitiy, cap mods etc... and then tell me other ships cant do all that and do it better? Sorry, been there, tried all the ships and that experience has taught me how badly Amarr compare to others unless you want to siege a pos/station all day long. If you want to PvP, which I assume you do and all...then the other BS's are far superior and you will get more satisfaction from them plus you will have surivorbility solo and more utility in gangs. The only reason Amarr ships get onto kill mails is cos they strip down shileds fast but try and break someones armour tank with lasers, meanwhile they are pounding you, your cap is running low, you cant keep your reppers/guns going etc...frustrating, so why bother?
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.02 05:39:00 - [583] Edited by: Aranbaal on 02/12/2007 05:45:15 Yes Grim86StonE alitle more cap wouldnt go a miss, that has to be agreed on. But still fitted right the ships work as they are now. At least you are not goin on about them not doin enough dmg as many people are, laser dmg is not broken at all. The ammount of amarr piltos that scream all amarr is broke is just stupid, when it is simple to prove they arent. All races need little things fixing, its just part of the game. trying to break a shield tank using minmatar is jsut as much of a pain t2 ammo is all on teh shield highest based resist just like amarr is on the armor. If i switch out to dmg faction ammo i am doin almost all my dmg to the highest armour resist so i cant win. But i work arorund it. And honestly the abaddon with the meanst armor tank arround. Am nto gonna give you my fit you can figure ur own, but having seen it in action time and time again ripping things to pieces while tanking everything in sight i know it works.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.02 07:34:00 - [584] Originally by: Aranbaal They can switch ammo types to the best one for teh job in a fraction of the time. Which means there guns are active more maing them the most effective. 1) it is good on paper. But there is old bug (it exist 4-5 years and still not fixed - ccp realy "loves" us) crystall jamming. Try to reload 8 lasers and only 3-4 of them actualy reloaded in the end. 2) 1 t2 or faction lenses market price is much greater than 100-200 t2/faction ammo. No difference in pve, but very expensive for pvp. Originally by: Aranbaal Also factor in that lasers dont need regular reloads in the fight gives the abaddon a better effective dps. Reloading time allready included in dps (eft or qfit) Originally by: Aranbaal I havent included drones in this dmg because i for one never get to use drones. And it was necessary. abaddon has 75m3 dronebay (3 heavy), mega - 125 (5 hvy) malestrom\hyper 100 (4 hvy) ogre 2 gives 63 dps with V skills - so mega has extra +126 dps and malestrom/hyper +63 With drone dps abaddon on 3 place (rokh on 4) Originally by: Aranbaal Range ... So abaddon is clear winner here with lasers having much better range than other guns. max randge = optimal+fallof+fallof. Try to count this way. Originally by: Aranbaal Am i missing something here ? whats broken? What a pity. I hoped for the constructive analysis, and you have passed the main problem because of which topics like this are created - laser cap usage and real second bonus for amarr ships (btw abaddon has normal bonuses - and its one ship that have some use).
Ooyama Caldari Rastana CMP	Posted - 2007.12.02 07:58:00 - [585] Edited by: Ooyama on 02/12/2007 07:58:57 Aranbaal,, read above post by peacefullnub, and add to that your (faulty) claim that you need to reload each turret manually,,try friggin rightclicking your turrets and select reload ALL!!(should do u the trick mate)! Ooyama. Originally by: Bimjo you sir are quite right my humble apologies I shall park my navy raven in 0.0 for you to come and destroy with your ducktaped missile launcher on your shuttle
Saikron	Posted - 2007.12.02 08:14:00 - [586] I think a massive cap boost would be the coolest thing for amarr. That one change would let them fit higher DPS and tank fittings and also make them the go-to race for high cap use loadouts like smartbomb boats or logistics.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.02 12:14:00 - [587] Originally by: Aranbaal Edited by: Aranbaal on 02/12/2007 05:45:15 Yes Grim86StonE alitle more cap wouldnt go a miss, that has to be agreed on. But still fitted right the ships work as they are now. At least you are not goin on about them not doin enough dmg as many people are, laser dmg is not broken at all. The ammount of amarr piltos that scream all amarr is broke is just stupid, when it is simple to prove they arent. All races need little things fixing, its just part of the game. trying to break a shield tank using minmatar is jsut as much of a pain t2 ammo is all on teh shield highest based resist just like amarr is on the armor. If i switch out to dmg faction ammo i am doin almost all my dmg to the highest armour resist so i cant win. But i work arorund it. And honestly the abaddon with the meanst armor tank arround. Am nto gonna give you my fit you can figure ur own, but having seen it in action time and time again ripping things to pieces while tanking everything in sight i know it works. I am a Abaddon pilot. I fly Amarr ships and other races ships in pvp for years. You sir, havent got a clue what you are talking about when it comes to Amarr. If anyone questions my experience with Amarr, take a loot at my stats via any bob's killboard or any other one should you think I make stuff up. I only want you to stop living in a dreamland where Amarr are perfectly fine, because this is not the case. here let me give you a history lesson. Amarr used to be OMGBBQ, and people even used lasers in Ravens. There was many ways to fix lasers, so CCP decided to up the fitting requirements of Lasers + cap useage etc so that Amarr ships could only fit them. Except that they made some guns use up far too much fitting to be honest. This was okish, since Amarr players could pile in heatsinks in the lows so the balance kinda remained, even though people Armour Tanked. Then CCP did a heatsink stacking nerf, a 50% to all health boost to all ships (making cap a issue), introduced Compensation skilsl to make EANM setups better than the non-EANM ones (with a side effect of increasing EM resist). Minmatar has the option of changing damagetypes to find the best fit one against shield tanks, but seriously, unless its a ratting raven, it is rare to see people use shield tanks. Amarr, however, are stuck with the same crystals. But let us say that in your imaginary world where everyone shield tanks, Minmatar would simply change Damagetypes to see what works best. Amarr, on the other hand, cannot. Crystals as others have said - Can take longer than ammo to relod in some cases. Even if they were instant, most amarr players would prefer a cheap per shot system, rather than carrying tons of spares. In my Abaddon cargohold, I have around 48 Crystals for example, and most of them unstacked because of a bug with decaying crystals which I doubt CCP will ever fix. This means that if I blow, I drop tens of millions in crystals. Cost is not a issue for me, but yeah, thats the price of a faction webber in some cases, and for more poor players, thats the cost of a insured battleship. In my Amarr ship, fitting mods are very real. I used to get asked the question how I managed to use so few fitting mods. my answer was simple, 3 x expensive Powergrid rigs. "Couldd you not buy another Abaddon for the price of those rigs?" yep. Anyhow assuming rigs or not, Amarr need lots of slots devoted to fitting. We need 2 tracking enhancers with Max skills to hit 150km optimal just, 3-4 if we want 170km+. Add in heatsinks and plates/rep/capmods and you suddenly relise that there is no lowslots left. For close range stuff, dual reps is handy, but some other races get a 7.5% rep amount bonus insted of a resist bonus, so I think you can see there is more to the equasion than hand picked numbers you are using. So I strongly reccomend that oyu train up Amarr and actualy spend a day pvping in them, insted of guesswork. -- Billion Isk Mission
Altai Saker Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.12.02 12:34:00 - [588] Originally by: Ooyama Edited by: Ooyama on 02/12/2007 07:58:57 Aranbaal,, read above post by peacefullnub, and add to that your (faulty) claim that you need to reload each turret manually,,try friggin rightclicking your turrets and select reload ALL!!(should do u the trick mate)! Ooyama. Look mom someone who doesn't fly amarr. http://www.omniscient-order.com/ Sahwoolo Etoophie is a noob! Noob and proud -Sahwoolo
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2007.12.02 12:45:00 - [589] Originally by: Altai Saker Originally by: Ooyama Edited by: Ooyama on 02/12/2007 07:58:57 Aranbaal,, read above post by peacefullnub, and add to that your (faulty) claim that you need to reload each turret manually,,try friggin rightclicking your turrets and select reload ALL!!(should do u the trick mate)! Ooyama. Look mom someone who doesn't fly amarr. /me chuckles. " your ship's fine stop complaining!" " er..can you fly it?" " um ..no" "shut up then." C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
zilllii Squirrel Power	Posted - 2007.12.02 12:45:00 - [590] Originally by: Aranbaal Edited by: Aranbaal on 02/12/2007 04:10:22 So just got an amarr corp mate to check how long it takes hm to switch out crystals in his abaddon, total of abotu 5-6 seconds to select each one and switch teh crystal .. actuall putting in the crystal takes abotu 1 second. So on my maelstrom i have to go allong and switch out ammo on each gun seperatly just as the abaddon guy does wight take 5-6 seconds just the same and then i find myself still waitng for new ammo to load and being shot by an abaddon that has already switched out its. So i dont see what your saying. Afer testing i see it as far quicker to change crystals than normal ammo. Only thing i can think of is you must be doin somethign wrong if it is taking you longer. Reading your post it also seems that you seem to be saying that normal guns all switch out at once.. ? have you never fitted normal guns you have toi select and switch ammo in everyone seporatly just the same as lasers do. what you seem unable to comprehend is the fact that you can swap ammo in each gun instantly but amarr has to wait the 5-6sec before they can start on the second gun because of a ageold bug that steals the crystal from the gun before it unless its completely loaded before you start on the next gun. with your guns you can click load and instantly click load on the next gun. try it and figure out who has the fastest loading times again.

Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.02 15:31:00 - [591] Originally by: zilllii Originally by: Aranbaal Edited by: Aranbaal on 02/12/2007 04:10:22 So just got an amarr corp mate to check how long it takes hm to switch out crystals in his abaddon, total of abotu 5-6 seconds to select each one and switch teh crystal .. actuall putting in the crystal takes abotu 1 second. So on my maelstrom i have to go allong and switch out ammo on each gun seperatly just as the abaddon guy does wight take 5-6 seconds just the same and then i find myself still waitng for new ammo to load and being shot by an abaddon that has already switched out its. So i dont see what your saying. Afer testing i see it as far quicker to change crystals than normal ammo. Only thing i can think of is you must be doin somethign wrong if it is taking you longer. Reading your post it also seems that you seem to be saying that normal guns all switch out at once.. ? have you never fitted normal guns you have toi select and switch ammo in everyone seporatly just the same as lasers do. what you seem unable to comprehend is the fact that you can swap ammo in each gun instantly but amarr has to wait the 5-6sec before they can start on the second gun because of a ageold bug that steals the crystal from the gun before it unless its completely loaded before you start on the next gun. with your guns you can click load and instantly click load on the next gun. try it and figure out who has the fastest loading times again. Exactly. however reloading time has nothing to do with the Amarr problem, and that guy is keen to lead everyone down a garden path. Something has to be done with insane fitting & cap requirements on tach's etc. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.02 16:26:00 - [592] I have ot love the you cant fly one so shut up people. make me chuckle everysinge time. Yes i have an alt adn yes he can fly an abaddon. So whats r next excuse for me not agreeing with you?? As for the maelstrom can switch ammo types to find the best one. Hae you ever tried carryin other ammo than crystals, you will find it tanks up massive ammounts of room so just isnt feesable to do when you need to carry cap boosters. Leavin a massive flaw in your point. The only race that truely can carry many different types of ammo at once is amarr, carrying anymore than 2-3 tops in anyother race means you leave no cargo space for your boosters. Also switching to other types of ammo with minmatar guns to break a heavy tank leaves you no longer doin any real dps so still unable to break the tank. You all sem to be having problems fitting an abaddon to make it work, you can give it a very very good passive tank and still do 700dps without implants. Damn that must mean its broken cause it tanks better than any of the other armor tanking bs's while doin more dps. Its fun to post in this threat, all the *****ing that goes on about various problems when the only thing that is even remotly valid is they are cap reliant. 6 minutes runing 8 mega pulse 2 a large armor repper a web and a scram isnt that bad at all. most fights dont last 6 mins, and if its big enough to last that long you are gonna die before you cap out it called primary anyway. And as for the point of drones, as i said i didnt add drone dps cause to teh averae pirate drones very rarely get used so make no difference. Pirates dont fit to rely on drones, soon as you fight on a gate or outside a station ur drones get smoked. Someone said teh carry 48 crystals, thats 6 different ammo types, damn sure wish i could do that in any other ships than amarr.
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2007.12.02 16:46:00 - [593] Edited by: Cailais on 02/12/2007 16:46:51 If CCP want to examine balance between racial ships then clearly 'equalizing ' everyones DPS/tank is not the way ahead. Ive got no problem with Race 'A' doing more dps than Race 'B'. However Race 'A' should have a compensating weakness, and Race 'B' a compensating strength. My suggestion is that each race should have a varying ability to handle overheating. For example: Amarr - Longer durations until modules start to overheat. When modules are 'hot' less % chance of damage occuring. Caldari - Normal durations until modules start to overheat. When modules are 'hot' less % of damage occuring. Gallente - Shorter durations until modules overheat. When modules are 'hot' normal % chance of damage occuring. Minmatar - Shorter durations until modules overheat. When modules are 'hot higher % chance of damage occuring. So Amarr ships run 'cooler' and are more stable than Minmatar ships that run hotter and are less stable. In essence the traditonaly 'good' pvp races -Gallente/Minmatar- are poorer at overheating than their counterparts the Caldari and the Amarr. C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Maximada Minmatar FM Corp Insomnia.	Posted - 2007.12.02 16:48:00 - [594] Amarr are not broken, its just that all their pilots think they are better than they actually are.
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2007.12.02 17:06:00 - [595] Originally by: Maximada Amarr are not broken, its just that all their pilots think they are better than they actually are. I think there's always going to be some element of that from every 'buff X/nerf Y' whine. However I think most players do recognise that Amarr and Caldari are less popular for pvp. Both races are 'specialists', whereas Gallente and Minmatar are far more flexible in how they set up for pvp. C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.02 17:50:00 - [596] Originally by: Aranbaal I have ot love the you cant fly one so shut up people. make me chuckle everysinge time. Yes i have an alt adn yes he can fly an abaddon. So whats r next excuse for me not agreeing with you?? As for the maelstrom can switch ammo types to find the best one. Hae you ever tried carryin other ammo than crystals, you will find it tanks up massive ammounts of room so just isnt feesable to do when you need to carry cap boosters. Leavin a massive flaw in your point. The only race that truely can carry many different types of ammo at once is amarr, carrying anymore than 2-3 tops in anyother race means you leave no cargo space for your boosters. Also switching to other types of ammo with minmatar guns to break a heavy tank leaves you no longer doin any real dps so still unable to break the tank. You all sem to be having problems fitting an abaddon to make it work, you can give it a very very good passive tank and still do 700dps without implants. Damn that must mean its broken cause it tanks better than any of the other armor tanking bs's while doin more dps. Its fun to post in this threat, all the ***ing that goes on about various problems when the only thing that is even remotly valid is they are cap reliant. 6 minutes runing 8 mega pulse 2 a large armor repper a web and a scram isnt that bad at all. most fights dont last 6 mins, and if its big enough to last that long you are gonna die before you cap out it called primary anyway. And as for the point of drones, as i said i didnt add drone dps cause to teh averae pirate drones very rarely get used so make no difference. Pirates dont fit to rely on drones, soon as you fight on a gate or outside a station ur drones get smoked. Someone said teh carry 48 crystals, thats 6 different ammo types, damn sure wish i could do that in any other ships than amarr. Look man, at first, it looked like you never flew Amarr, now it looks like you never flew Amarr and never PvPed. Rather that waffle about why your new claim of having a abaddon alt is unlikely to be true, since earlier today, you confirmed that you got a friend to check crystal times etc, I will do this in bullet points. 1. You Say Crystals = good because you can carry more crystals. Hello? You only need Long range + short range + backups + disposable Ammo for whatever type of battleship you fly in pvp. Thats 4 types. I am not even going to start on cap boosters, since Amarr have the strongist need for them. 2. Then you talk about OMG tank of Abaddon while doing OMG DPS. 8 Megapulse/conflag + Dual reps + Heatsink II = 135cap/sec for 691 DPS, Half of which is EM. Now any such closerange setup need MWD + Scram, and you said a Web as well. This brings the Cap usage to 194 for the inital stage of the fight. You better hope it takes you 2 MWD cycles to get to the enemy, as by the third, you are out of cap! So this means cap booster which means fitting mods etc etc etc. Once you add a RCU II (since PDU II is not enough gridwise) you are left with 3 rig slots and 3 lows. Lets put a DCII in. Oh dear, you now have 2 lows free, 3 rig slots free and lack CPU to fit even a single EANM. Damm, it looks like that 25% resist bonus, was like a Free EANM that I could not fit because I had to waste that slot on a fitting mod. Well, lets just hope the enemy does not have 2 EANM/DC combo, otherwise their tank may look a bit better than mine! Oh And 37.5% Melstrom Shield Boost = win! You fail at PVP when you say drones are almsot never used. Admit it, you never pvp nor have you a Amarr alt. Drones are used almost always. Stations only shoot agressors, but defenders, Wardecs and 0.0 use drones all the time. So stop making yourself look clueless, as you are a typical "i dont fly Amarr, but they are good" yuppie. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!**
Uchuu Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2007.12.02 18:19:00 - [597] looks around Wha.... What? You people are still at it? Honestly just pick another race cause it's quite obvious that amarr will be the underdogs for the lifetime of this game. Just look at the sheer number of threads on the forums. I stopped reading all these "solutions" a while go. The minute a poster even tries to come up with a solution I just skip it completely. Trust me, there are a lot of posts like that, and I assume CCP does the same. I am a pure amarrian build, training in skills that will allow me to cross train to other ships easily. I tend to do fairly well in gang battles but never even think about trying solo to 2-3 gang matches. Just take my advice and train for a race best suited for a situation. If you want to snipe, and amarr sucks at it, pick rohk. Amarr recons are teh suck? Pick the rapier or something. zealot and sac absolute nonesense? Go with a vaga like everyone else, etc etc. The point is, if you hate the flat coke, go with a mountain dew.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.02 18:42:00 - [598] Originally by: Aranbaal I have ot love the you cant fly one so shut up people. make me chuckle everysinge time. Yes i have an alt adn yes he can fly an abaddon. So whats r next excuse for me not agreeing with you?? No matter how many alts you have and what theyr races. On your posts it is well visible, that you do not know our race (a simple example - crystall jamming bug - its well known for all amarrs). I dont blame you for that - you may be good minmatar specialist/low sec pirat. But honesty - its realy annoying to try to convince someone who closed his eyes on half of your (and another topic readers) arguments. So i simply wont try. Originally by: maximada Amarr are not broken, its just that all their pilots think they are better than they actually are. Only fool never doubt. So maybe you right. I am just a nub and i dont hide it. But when 1 man (minmatar btw) said that ALL amarrian pilots have lack of skills, and its only reason why amarrian ships overall on 4rth place here... whell, of course its all our incompetence! Plz help us finish tutorial great one! Teach us how to use lasers and armor reps when cap is empty! ...u cant? Then maybe it is you who need to finish tutorial?
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.02 18:45:00 - [599] Originally by: Uchuu looks around Wha.... What? You people are still at it? Honestly just pick another race cause it's quite obvious that amarr will be the underdogs for the lifetime of this game. Just look at the sheer number of threads on the forums. I stopped reading all these "solutions" a while go. The minute a poster even tries to come up with a solution I just skip it completely. Trust me, there are a lot of posts like that, and I assume CCP does the same. I am a pure amarrian build, training in skills that will allow me to cross train to other ships easily. I tend to do fairly well in gang battles but never even think about trying solo to 2-3 gang matches. Just take my advice and train for a race best suited for a situation. If you want to snipe, and amarr sucks at it, pick rohk. Amarr recons are teh suck? Pick the rapier or something. zealot and sac absolute nonesense? Go with a vaga like everyone else, etc etc. The point is, if you hate the flat coke, go with a mountain dew. yeah, you are right. But if you already paid for a flat coke, would you be happy paying more for mountain dew? Or next time I ask for a coke, I should ask for mountain dew as well, just in case? I dont disagree with what you have to say, so many people paid for the flat coke of Amarr with millions of SP, so they feel it is a bit of a waste. However, if we did waste our time, may as well make sure new customers know not to buy the cola as it sucks. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.02 18:48:00 - [600] Originally by: Aranbaal I switched from my ranged t2 ammo Barrage to my short range t2 ammo hail . which i have to be honest i dont normally carry cause its teh worst ammo in the world ... too many downsides to it faction emp is beter than it but no faction stuff is better than barrage. Hail is much better than faction EMP, which is worse for most applications than Faction PP or Faction Fusion. Against the ship that has the most advantage in tanking ex damage on armor, Hail does 24% more DPS than Faction EMP over the entire life of the ship, including shields and structure. Against an armor tanked ship, hail will be the difference between killing them and having them tank the entirety of your dps.

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.02 18:52:00 - [601] Originally by: Aranbaal As for the maelstrom can switch ammo types to find the best one. Hae you ever tried carryin other ammo than crystals, you will find it tanks up massive ammounts of room so just isnt feesable to do when you need to carry cap boosters. Leavin a massive flaw in your point. The only race that truely can carry many different types of ammo at once is amarr, carrying anymore than 2-3 tops in anyother race means you leave no cargo space for your boosters. Also switching to other types of ammo with minmatar guns to break a heavy tank leaves you no longer doin any real dps so still unable to break the tank. This has been addressed before, but if you need that much room for your ammo that you make up the difference in size between an Amarr Cargo Hold and a Minnie/Gallente/Caldari cargo hold you are either doing something terribly wrong because you have so much bloody ammo, or something terribly right because you never ever die or have an
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.02 18:52:00 - [602] Originally by: Aranbaal As for the maelstrom can switch ammo types to find the best one. Hae you ever tried carryin other ammo than crystals, you will find it tanks up massive ammounts of room so just isnt feesable to do when you need to carry cap boosters. Leavin a massive flaw in your point. The only race that truely can carry many different types of ammo at once is amarr, carrying anymore than 2-3 tops in anyother race means you leave no cargo space for your boosters. Also switching to other types of ammo with minmatar guns to break a heavy tank leaves you no longer doin any real dps so still unable to break the tank. This has been addressed before, but if you need that much room for your ammo that you make up the difference in size between an Amarr Cargo Hold and a Minnie/Gallente/Caldari cargo hold you are either doing something terribly wrong because you have so much bloody ammo, or something terribly right because you never ever die or have a chance to reload.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.02 18:59:00 - [603] Originally by: Aranbaal Its fun to post in this threat, all the *****ing that goes on about various problems when the only thing that is even remotly valid is they are cap reliant. 6 minutes runing 8 mega pulse 2 a large armor repper a web and a scram isnt that bad at all. most fights dont last 6 mins, and if its big enough to last that long you are gonna die before you cap out it called primary anyway. Please tell me how you run 8 megapulses and a LAR for 6 minutes.
zilllii Squirrel Power	Posted - 2007.12.02 19:00:00 - [604] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Aranbaal Its fun to post in this threat, all the *****ing that goes on about various problems when the only thing that is even remotly valid is they are cap reliant. 6 minutes runing 8 mega pulse 2 a large armor repper a web and a scram isnt that bad at all. most fights dont last 6 mins, and if its big enough to last that long you are gonna die before you cap out it called primary anyway. Please tell me how you run 8 megapulses and a LAR for 6 minutes. lol this tale wile be funny to read.
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.02 19:06:00 - [605] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Look man, at first, it looked like you never flew Amarr, now it looks like you never flew Amarr and never PvPed. Rather that waffle about why your new claim of having a abaddon alt is unlikely to be true, since earlier today, you confirmed that you got a friend to check crystal times etc, I will do this in bullet points. 1. You Say Crystals = good because you can carry more crystals. Hello? You only need Long range + short range + backups + disposable Ammo for whatever type of battleship you fly in pvp. Thats 4 types. I am not even going to start on cap boosters, since Amarr have the strongist need for them. 2. Then you talk about OMG tank of Abaddon while doing OMG DPS. 8 Megapulse/conflag + Dual reps + Heatsink II = 135cap/sec for 691 DPS, Half of which is EM. Now any such closerange setup need MWD + Scram, and you said a Web as well. This brings the Cap usage to 194 for the inital stage of the fight. You better hope it takes you 2 MWD cycles to get to the enemy, as by the third, you are out of cap! So this means cap booster which means fitting mods etc etc etc. Once you add a RCU II (since PDU II is not enough gridwise) you are left with 3 rig slots and 3 lows. Lets put a DCII in. Oh dear, you now have 2 lows free, 3 rig slots free and lack CPU to fit even a single EANM. Damm, it looks like that 25% resist bonus, was like a Free EANM that I could not fit because I had to waste that slot on a fitting mod. Well, lets just hope the enemy does not have 2 EANM/DC combo, otherwise their tank may look a bit better than mine! Oh And 37.5% Melstrom Shield Boost = win! You fail at PVP when you say drones are almsot never used. Admit it, you never pvp nor have you a Amarr alt. Drones are used almost always. Stations only shoot agressors, but defenders, Wardecs and 0.0 use drones all the time. So stop making yourself look clueless, as you are a typical "i dont fly Amarr, but they are good" yuppie. Ah confrimation that you fly a broke tank.. Dual reps on an abaddon is the i lose of fits. Leanr to fit then see if your ship works or not. And a mwd on a abaddon not needed at all. You have over 20km range so no need to get any closer than you are. Just load up with amarr navy multi freq fit a proper tank and own the world. Stop fitting ships to bring out there weakness. Fitting 101 fit to your strenghts, abaddon has high resists so fits 4 tonne of armor all passive tanked while getting heatsink on. Only a noob would fit a ship ful of mods that drain there cap on a ship that nees its cap to fire. Sorry but you just proved you cannot fit a ship. So you must carry multiple ammos eh .. I carry 1 ammo type in most of my fits and its just fine as i dont go for chicken long range pvp. if your gona do it you get in and do it. 90% of piracy happens at under 20km range so no need to have longer range. Keep ur range fits to 0.0 fleet bettles where they belong. I know very few people who carry multiple ammo types for piracy they just arent needed.
JD 24	Posted - 2007.12.02 19:08:00 - [606] Edited by: JD 24 on 02/12/2007 19:08:40 Oh and a big hello from my so called non existant amarr pilot trained for n abaddon fro the word go.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.02 19:09:00 - [607] Originally by: zilllii Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Aranbaal Its fun to post in this threat, all the ***ing that goes on about various problems when the only thing that is even remotly valid is they are cap reliant. 6 minutes runing 8 mega pulse 2 a large armor repper a web and a scram isnt that bad at all. most fights dont last 6 mins, and if its big enough to last that long you are gonna die before you cap out it called primary anyway. Please tell me how you run 8 megapulses and a LAR for 6 minutes. lol this tale wile be funny to read. I think I know how he does it. he uses Dracila Cap relays in lows, T2 CCC in Rigs, and every slot a Officer Recharger. Even then, I dont know how he would run dual lars + 8 megapulse II / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!**
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.02 19:14:00 - [608] Originally by: Aranbaal Originally by: Jonny JoJo Look man, at first, it looked like you never flew Amarr, now it looks like you never flew Amarr and never PvPed. Rather that waffle about why your new claim of having a abaddon alt is unlikely to be true, since earlier today, you confirmed that you got a friend to check crystal times etc, I will do this in bullet points. 1. You Say Crystals = good because you can carry more crystals. Hello? You only need Long range + short range + backups + disposable Ammo for whatever type of battleship you fly in pvp. Thats 4 types. I am not even going to start on cap boosters, since Amarr have the strongist need for them. 2. Then you talk about OMG tank of Abaddon while doing OMG DPS. 8 Megapulse/conflag + Dual reps + Heatsink II = 135cap/sec for 691 DPS, Half of which is EM. Now any such closerange setup need MWD + Scram, and you said a Web as well. This brings the Cap usage to 194 for the inital stage of the fight. You better hope it takes you 2 MWD cycles to get to the enemy, as by the third, you are out of cap! So this means cap booster which means fitting mods etc etc etc. Once you add a RCU II (since PDU II is not enough gridwise) you are left with 3 rig slots and 3 lows. Lets put a DCII in. Oh dear, you now have 2 lows free, 3 rig slots free and lack CPU to fit even a single EANM. Damm, it looks like that 25% resist bonus, was like a Free EANM that I could not fit because I had to waste that slot on a fitting mod. Well, lets just hope the enemy does not have 2 EANM/DC combo, otherwise their tank may look a bit better than mine! Oh And 37.5% Melstrom Shield Boost = win! You fail at PVP when you say drones are almsot never used. Admit it, you never pvp nor have you a Amarr alt. Drones are used almost always. Stations only shoot agressors, but defenders, Wardecs and 0.0 use drones all the time. So stop making yourself look clueless, as you are a typical "i dont fly Amarr, but they are good" yuppie. Ah confrimation that you fly a broke tank.. Dual reps on an abaddon is the i lose of fits. Leanr to fit then see if your ship works or not. And a mwd on a abaddon not needed at all. You have over 20km range so no need to get any closer than you are. Just load up with amarr navy multi freq fit a proper tank and own the world. Stop fitting ships to bring out there weakness. Fitting 101 fit to your strenghts, abaddon has high resists so fits 4 tonne of armor all passive tanked while getting heatsink on. Only a noob would fit a ship ful of mods that drain there cap on a ship that nees its cap to fire. Sorry but you just proved you cannot fit a ship. So you must carry multiple ammos eh .. I carry 1 ammo type in most of my fits and its just fine as i dont go for chicken long range pvp. if your gona do it you get in and do it. 90% of piracy happens at under 20km range so no need to have longer range. Keep ur range fits to 0.0 fleet bettles where they belong. I know very few people who carry multiple ammo types for piracy they just arent needed. Man, first you say 2 lar, 8 megapulse setup, then you say 2 lar is for chumps, and go for single lar when I prove your setup impossible. First you say Crystals reload instantly, then your say your freind reloads faster, then you say your have a abaddon alt. Then you say nobody uses drones, but then you relise that anyone you shoot will use drones against you. Then you say crystals are good as you can carry lots of them, now you say you only carry 1 set as anything else is chicken. You sure do say a lot of things. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
JD 24	Posted - 2007.12.02 19:16:00 - [609] 8x megapulse 2 and 1 LAR 2 uses 83 cap a second Cap recharge + cap 800s gives you a 78 cap a second. So leaves a drain of 5 cap a second. damn thats real bad means am gonna run till i run out of cap boosters like all active shield tank ships etc... that must be broken. Damn you gus are funny. In all seriousness fit your ships better people there are better fits out there just waiting for you to find them.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.02 19:30:00 - [610] Quote: And a mwd on a abaddon not needed at all. You have over 20km range so no need to get any closer than you are. A joke of the day? (i write this quote to my notebook). You know anything about fleet pvp? (i allready know the answer...) I have changed my mind - you not even good low sec pirate. Looks like all that you did - killing some noobs near the gate in 1-2 shots. But plz continue to rise up topic -)

Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.02 19:32:00 - [611] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 02/12/2007 19:33:37 Originally by: PeacefullNub Quote: And a mwd on a abaddon not needed at all. You have over 20km range so no need to get any closer than you are. A joke of the day? (i write this quote to my notebook). You know anything about fleet pvp? (i allready know the answer...) I have changed my mind - you not even good low sec pirate. Looks like all that you did - killing some noobs near the gate in 1-2 shots. But plz continue to rise up topic -) Yeah, this guy knows nothing about piracy. Anyone with a brain can MWD out of his range and warp off, or scramble him and orbit faster than his guns tracking. Meanwhile all he can do is hope to 1 volley noobships and also those slow aligning haulers. But this guy says a lot of things that proves himself false, so it would not surprise me if this is a make beleive situation. Say, I cannot find any kills made by him on any public killboard so I am calling pork pies! / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.02 21:35:00 - [612] Edited by: Aranbaal on 02/12/2007 21:35:55 This tread gets more and more amusing with every post. So because i can fit an amarr ship with a heavy tank that works perfectly in pvp with no problems i am a noob. Better cange my fits to all include uneeded cap draining mwd's and fit fully active dual rep tanks so i can cap out and die in under a minute. Sounds like a plan to me. By saying you ships dont work you prove your fits arent right. If you wanna fly arround in a mwd abaddon then you have fun doin it. And dont feel to sad when you cap runs out and you cant tank because your fit is lame. Its so much fun to see you all get super defencive when someone shows that the claims you make are over exagerated. Cant wait for you next uber claim that makes you look dumb once again lol
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:11:00 - [613] Originally by: JD 24 8x megapulse 2 and 1 LAR 2 uses 83 cap a second Cap recharge + cap 800s gives you a 78 cap a second. So leaves a drain of 5 cap a second. damn thats real bad means am gonna run till i run out of cap boosters like all active shield tank ships etc... that must be broken. Damn you gus are funny. In all seriousness fit your ships better people there are better fits out there just waiting for you to find them. These numbers are wrong. 8 MPII on an Abaddon is 94.7 cap per second and a single cap booster 800 out of a heavy cap injector increases your peak recharge to 72.4 cap/second
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:12:00 - [614] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 02/12/2007 22:18:34 Originally by: Aranbaal Edited by: Aranbaal on 02/12/2007 21:35:55 This tread gets more and more amusing with every post. So because i can fit an amarr ship with a heavy tank that works perfectly in pvp with no problems i am a noob. Better cange my fits to all include uneeded cap draining mwd's and fit fully active dual rep tanks so i can cap out and die in under a minute. Sounds like a plan to me. By saying you ships dont work you prove your fits arent right. If you wanna fly arround in a mwd abaddon then you have fun doin it. And dont feel to sad when you cap runs out and you cant tank because your fit is lame. Its so much fun to see you all get super defencive when someone shows that the claims you make are over exagerated. Cant wait for you next uber claim that makes you look dumb once again lol Keep it up buddy, the entire eve pvp community disagrees with you, but dont let that stop you killing noobships, since without a mwd, thats probebly all that cannot escape. Yeah, no amarr ship is going to have problems killing noobships. After all, in this thread, everything you said about crystals was wrong, and I am telling you know, to give you the heads up, that what you think is pvp is laughable at best. If I jump in, and you scramble me and if things dont look good, whats to stop me mwding out of your scram range, since you lack a mwd, and warp out? / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Ooyama Caldari Rastana CMP	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:18:00 - [615] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Altai Saker Originally by: Ooyama Edited by: Ooyama on 02/12/2007 07:58:57 Aranbaal,, read above post by peacefullnub, and add to that your (faulty) claim that you need to reload each turret manually,,try friggin rightclicking your turrets and select reload ALL!!(should do u the trick mate)! Ooyama. Look mom someone who doesn't fly amarr. /me chuckles. " your ship's fine stop complaining!" " er..can you fly it?" " um ..no" "shut up then." C. Do yourself the favour of reading the posts you want to quote. I referred to his claim that you couldn't reload all projectile guns / rails etc like that,,, NOT lasers (i actually use an Abaddon daily myself, hence why i whould like to see it getting to same standards as other ships). Best regards, and in the hope u recover from your apparent dyslexial condition, Ooyama. Originally by: Bimjo you sir are quite right my humble apologies I shall park my navy raven in 0.0 for you to come and destroy with your ducktaped missile launcher on your shuttle
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:21:00 - [616] Originally by: Aranbaal Edited by: Aranbaal on 02/12/2007 21:35:55 So because i can fit an amarr ship with a heavy tank that works perfectly in pvp with no problems i am a noob. there is a difference between "works" and "i think it works" Your fit is pvn fit - it is good to camp gate and kill frig\indi\cruiser that decloake after jump. Maybe warping on the belt when victim is not far from center. And what do you do if you meet another BS? (exept running away?). If it has sniper config - it just use his mwd an there is no way that you could stop him from leaving your optimal. If it has close config - then there is no way to stop him from reaching his optimal with blasters\autocannons (and they have greater tracking and dps than pulses). And do not forget: this tread is about cap usage and cap usage bonuses (mainly - there some minior issues with fitting\damage type etc.) of ALL amarr ships (notice?). Hell, why we must disquss about your pwn abaddon? or about volume of crystalls? or try to prove existens of laser jamming bug to 1 man who dont whant to belive and cannot check it himself? or try to convince you that you need to use drones in calculations? Originally by: Aranbaal Edited by: Aranbaal on 02/12/2007 21:35:55 Its so much fun to see you all get super defencive when someone shows that the claims you make are over exagerated. Cant wait for you next uber claim that makes you look dumb once again lol im allready said - only fool never doubt. So you think that we all wrong and you right?
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:22:00 - [617] Edited by: Aranbaal on 02/12/2007 22:25:19 Then you mwd away. I fit ti fight not to run away liek a carebear, i am a pirate. I am lovin this thread simply because of teh poor arguments you guys are putting up. I know an abaddon can be fitted with a tank that no other armor tanking bs can match and while doin this its still doin over 700dps without drones if you have the dmg implant in. Now you say that fit is broken. thas your opinion, if having a ship that fits a tank others cant match while doin damn good dps meas its broken, then i would hate to see what can be done with it when its fixed. Also to see peole complain it caps out too quick when fitting mwd, dual reps and active tanks etc.. is just plain dumb. Of course its gonna cap out fast with those mods running what do you expect lol. As for the post above, you speak of sniper fits, tese are rarely scene out side 0.0 so why would apirate fit to counter them? thats just wasting slots. The abaddon fit we use can sit at a gate taning the gate and aything that wants to jump in just fine. Makes mincemeat of most bs's that come close. Actually try fits before claiming they cant work, stops you looking like a noob to all those who do run the same fit and know it works increadably well.
Mul K'tah Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:31:00 - [618] Edited by: Mul K''tah on 02/12/2007 22:35:44 Edited by: Mul K''tah on 02/12/2007 22:32:29 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Keep it up buddy, the entire eve pvp community disagrees with you, but dont let that stop you killing noobships, since without a mwd, thats probebly all that cannot escape. Yeah, no amarr ship is going to have problems killing noobships. After all, in this thread, everything you said about crystals was wrong, and I am telling you know, to give you the heads up, that what you think is pvp is laughable at best. If I jump in, and you scramble me and if things dont look good, whats to stop me mwding out of your scram range, since you lack a mwd, and warp out? Nothing.... but if you go in 1v1 with a mwd abaddon, by the time things start looking bad, you won't have the cap to run away. Even if you do, fitting a mwd for solo pvp means you'll always have ot run away because your low cap will always make the battle look bad. That being said, I do agree that a mwd is useful, but only in roaming gang setups where you often have to burn back to the gate you just jumped from and where the gank is over before you cap out. Also want to add that for pvp, passive tank is the way to go for the abaddon, like Araanbal said.
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:35:00 - [619] o/ Mul, been a while. hows tricks ? Life is good up our way, and i even have time to have fun laughing at guys here who seem to think the abaddon fit we use doesnt work . oh well. Hope your having fun back in goons..
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:41:00 - [620] Originally by: Mul K'tah Originally by: Jonny JoJo Keep it up buddy, the entire eve pvp community disagrees with you, but dont let that stop you killing noobships, since without a mwd, thats probebly all that cannot escape. Yeah, no amarr ship is going to have problems killing noobships. After all, in this thread, everything you said about crystals was wrong, and I am telling you know, to give you the heads up, that what you think is pvp is laughable at best. If I jump in, and you scramble me and if things dont look good, whats to stop me mwding out of your scram range, since you lack a mwd, and warp out? Nothing.... but if you go in 1v1 with a mwd abaddon, by the time things start looking bad, you won't have the cap to run away. Even if you do, fitting a mwd for solo pvp means you'll always have ot run away because your low cap will always make the battle look bad. That being said, I do agree that a mwd is useful, but only in roaming gang setups where you often have to burn back to the gate you just jump from and where the gank is over before you cap out. Having seen many battles, most people know if things are going bad and plan a stratagey from there. The pilot can always deactivate the mwd if he passes the point of no return, where a MWD is not going to be of any use. Basically, my understanding is that this guy sits on a gate, and anything that jumps through he scrambles, and if they dont have MWD, then the chancces are they are dead by the time they travel from 15km from gate centre (where I assume the guy sits) to 24km range of scramblers. Anyhow that is 7km of travaling, and for all I know, he could be using a after burner insted of a MWD to catch MWDing transport ships before they escape. This style of play is available to all races, though Amarr ships may have trouple putting multiple points. For example, the new Trinity torp raven will do more DPS than the Abaddon, and has more mids to scramble with. And it can fit a mwd freely, as guns use no cap. So the pirate can chase targets as opposed to lucky dip. -- Billion Isk Mission

Mul K'tah Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:41:00 - [621] Originally by: Aranbaal o/ Mul, been a while. hows tricks ? Life is good up our way, and i even have time to have fun laughing at guys here who seem to think the abaddon fit we use doesnt work . oh well. Hope your having fun back in goons.. Things have been good in goonswarm, we're winning aren't we :D Yeah its funny to see these fittings. I think people mistake ratting/missioning sustainability with pvp. Running 8 megapulse with standard crystals and a LAR might be good for pve but its's gonna get you killed in pvp. And fitting a second LAR is just dumb since an extra plate or Damage Control/EANM will buy you more time. Speaking of abaddons, I still have one in your station I'm keeping for rainy days ;-)
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.02 22:49:00 - [622] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 02/12/2007 22:50:01 Originally by: Mul K'tah Things have been good in goonswarm, we're winning aren't we :D Yeah its funny to see these fittings. I think people mistake ratting/missioning sustainability with pvp. Running 8 megapulse with standard crystals and a LAR might be good for pve but its's gonna get you killed in pvp. Sorry, just had to but in here, just thought I would have a quick chuckle at the irony, then the rest of your guys can argue among yourselfs.Werent you the guy who had used pve geddon battleship setups in pvp? -- Billion Isk Mission
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:01:00 - [623] Aranbaal - man, let me try to see your points: 1) I pirate - youre noobs. Youre just jealous becouse i created best abaddon pvn fit, not you. of course of course - relax 2) I have pvn fitted abaddon - it is ok - and that means there is no problem with: - enormious laser cap usage - laser_cap_reduction bonus instead of real second bonus on dps\tank\tracking\speed\whatever on allmoust all t1\half t2 amarr ships (exept abaddon) - bad pulse laser tracking - heavy beam laser fit req - only 2 type of laser damage in сomparison vs common omnitank - laser jamming bug - nosf\amarr recone nefr - track diz useless in сomparison vs jammers and dampers - another skill tree for half of t2 amarr ships - etc. of course we belive you - if you can figure uberpvn fit for abaddon then youre cannot be wrong 3)All ppl know my reputation and competence - just all of you dont know it - but i dont care becouse youre noobs. forgive our ignorance o great PVNer - we all swear we will understand you someday... in our afterlife.
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:19:00 - [624] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Aranbaal I switched from my ranged t2 ammo Barrage to my short range t2 ammo hail . which i have to be honest i dont normally carry cause its teh worst ammo in the world ... too many downsides to it faction emp is beter than it but no faction stuff is better than barrage. Hail is much better than faction EMP, which is worse for most applications than Faction PP or Faction Fusion. Against the ship that has the most advantage in tanking ex damage on armor, Hail does 24% more DPS than Faction EMP over the entire life of the ship, including shields and structure. Against an armor tanked ship, hail will be the difference between killing them and having them tank the entirety of your dps. So switching to hail means i get to kill my oponent does it ... Yeah but on the flip side of that it means i have crap raneg so may have to move to get into range to hit him, the my 8x 800mm t2s on my maelstrom all fitted with hail ammo = 8x 7% reduction in cap recharge which means my shield tank is gonna fail faster cause my cap takes a week to reacharge, hence making it not worth the effort. And to peacefull you question if i think your all wrong and i am right, i have come here and said there are abaddon fits that work FACT, there is nothign you can do to change the fact that there are. Then 3-4 of you all scream that they dont and i dont know what i am talking about. try goin out and figuring the fits out and see if they work or not. Then when you find they do you will finally take of you blinkers and see what i am saying, rather than just have the whole i'm uber i'm right ur not amarr you are wrong attitude. I have spent most of my gaming time fly allong side mainly all amarr pilots and almost every one of the fit the exact same fit to abaddons when engaging in piracy because it works increadably well. But feel free to keep goin on about how a fit you dont yet know doesnt work and how you need to have this and you need ot have that, its damn hilarious its giving many of us a real good laugh. I mean lest all go fit cap draining mods like mwd and dual reps to ships that need cap to shoot, then complain cause it caps out fast ..... noobness FTW
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:38:00 - [625] Edited by: Goumindong on 02/12/2007 23:39:58 Edited by: Goumindong on 02/12/2007 23:38:31 Originally by: Aranbaal So switching to hail means i get to kill my oponent does it ... Yeah but on the flip side of that it means i have crap raneg so may have to move to get into range to hit him, the my 8x 800mm t2s on my maelstrom all fitted with hail ammo = 8x 7% reduction in cap recharge which means my shield tank is gonna fail faster cause my cap takes a week to reacharge, hence making it not worth the effort. If you are running an active shield tank on a Maelstrom on your natural recharge, you have more problems than i can help you with buddy. Dont change before you are in range, change after you are in range. The only time you would want to get up close is if fighting a tech 2 laser ship[where you wont be out-dpsing them with your shield tanks resists]. But you should have plenty of range with Hail, and the instance where you wont be using hail you should be using Barrage and not faction EMP. Better damage types and longer range. Quote: I have spent most of my gaming time fly allong side mainly all amarr pilots and almost every one of the fit the exact same fit to abaddons when engaging in piracy because it works increadably well. No, it doesnt. It works incredibly well against NPCers, it is not a quality setup for General pvp, where you want zero repair units and an MWD.
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.12.02 23:50:00 - [626] Originally by: Aranbaal Yeah but on the flip side of that it means i have crap range so may have to move to get into range to hit him... In this regard they've proven repeatedly that they just want all the benefits of all the races coupled with their own, and want to complain about the detriments they already have. The loudest whiners want to have lasers do at least three kinds of damage (if not four), do more of it, more often, with the range they have (or more), with less cap usage, etc, etc, etc. On top of all that, they also want more cap, more cap recharge, more speed, more slots, somehow think they can't run an MWD and should, and if they aren't buffed to ridiculous proportions, it's only fair that everyone else have their unique abilities removed completely to compensate. Seriously, get real. If you want to shield tank, use Caladari (or minmatar). You want to speed tank, use minmatar. You want to MWD in and blast the crap out of someone from 5k, use gallente. You want to be a laser spewing armored brick death machine, fly amarr. Don't like it, DON'T FLY THEM. And YES I DO PROUDLY fly amarr myself (amarr inty's rock, and apoc is one of my fav team ships around). I use them often, both solo and team, and they are ALWAYS a welcome addition to any team I'm on. For the millionth time: 1. Fix laser fittings. 2. Fix laser cap usage. 3. Give amarr ships a real bonus. 4. Argue other minutia later (most whining already fits into this category anyways). The first two benefit EVERYONE, not just amarr, is what the vast majority of people already agree on, truly addressed balance without a pro or con amarr bias, and is pretty much needed and SOON. Although they were overpowered at the time, it was neat when people were fitting lasers on a variety of other ships, much how many amarr ships fit projectiles today (and yes they shouldn't have to do so). The reason why I don't list the amarr crystal reload issue is really because a dev already said that 'almost immediately after trinity' they are redoing ammo reload in general, part of which is to fix this issue for amarr. So with one click, everyone should be able to reload a certain ammo type into all guns. Before you post some blathering reply ranting about how you should get your way anyways, answer me one question: If amarr blow goats and are as useless as most of you claim, why are YOU flying their ships? Why are you 'a fully Amarr specced' character? I've worked my way to be able to fly all four races with confidence, why haven't you?
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:32:00 - [627] Originally by: Aranbaal i have come here and said there are abaddon fits that work FACT, try goin out and figuring the fits out and see if they work or not I dont even try to. If you read carefully my posts maybe you see that: I never sayed that this fit is bad - i said that this fit usefull only for 1 goal. And you still try to use 1 abaddon fit as proof that entire race is flawless and have no problems. Dont you honestly think its stupid and childish? Analize abaddon (and all others bs with "laser_cap_reduction" bonuses) fits for ratting, mission running, solo pvp, close range pvp, long range pvp etc. And compare them with hyper\rokh\malestrom fits. Yes - its allmost impossible (too many variations and opinions), and thats a reason why OP uses only 2 type of fit - long\close dps fits and full tanking fits. And thats a reason why i dont whant to start smacktalk about your abaddon fit (do you realise how many fits have mega for example? and how difficult to compare them all?) Originally by: Aranbaal you will finally take of you blinkers and see what i am saying Youre saying about fit for pvn abaddon - im saying about entire race. Just curious - what sise of font need so you notice it? - it is allready 5th post where i try to get your attention to main problems of this tread (No - it is not about abaddon). And all Ive got "my pulse abaddon is great, you cannot denie that FACT" Originally by: Aranbaal rather than just have the whole i'm uber i'm right ur not amarr you are wrong attitude . I allways saed im a noob I even create char with this nick, and i dont think its bad to know that im still learning something. But on the other hand - Ive got tied getting your attention to main point of this tread. If you cannot see it - it is not my problem anymore. Some people never chandge. I leave you with your amarr alt and pvn abaddon in sweat onvictions that amarrs have no problems at all. P.S. to all - sry for my bad english (difficult to disquss on foreign language)
Dlardrageth Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.12.03 06:49:00 - [628] Originally by: daemorhedron [...] And YES I DO PROUDLY fly amarr myself (amarr inty's rock, and apoc is one of my fav team ships around). I use them often, both solo and team, and they are ALWAYS a welcome addition to any team I'm on. [...] You have how many million skillpoints? Of course it is easy to argue that with max skills Amarr are competitive, of course it is easy to argue that Amarr have competitive battleships and capitals and of course it is easy to argue that noone has to fly Amarr. That only misses out on a few points. Most players in EVE happen to have less than max skills. Or even less than max cap-related and ship skills. As many an Amarr ship has a bonus (laser-/cap-related) that makes a fitting viable if nothing else, with less than max skills you often draw a blank in terms of competitiveness. And please spare me the obvious "Train up, you nOOb!" answer. Why should Amarr players have to train up max skills when other races can do fine with less than those? Another point is not every player in EVE happens to be able to fly either battleships or even capitals for quite a while, so the (debatable) "uberness" of Amarr capitals for example does not affect the majority of the player base. Quote: [...] For the millionth time: 1. Fix laser fittings. 2. Fix laser cap usage. 3. Give amarr ships a real bonus. 4. Argue other minutia later (most whining already fits into this category anyways). [...] I would even go one step back and sum it up towards: "Make Amarr more competitive" Though I won't hold my breath for it to happen. Lasers are borked for how long now? The Pilgrim needs a fix for how long now? The reloading issue with faction and Tech-2 crystals has been known for how long now? The Tracking Disruptors were a totally overpowered type of EW for how long now (so they required a nerf)? Quote: [...] If amarr blow goats and are as useless as most of you claim, why are YOU flying their ships? Why are you 'a fully Amarr specced' character? I've worked my way to be able to fly all four races with confidence, why haven't you? [...] Well, I just fly the Amarr ships I don't see as useless or utterly uncompetitive. Thus I don't even bother to train up a single skillpoint for Amarr recons now any more. And I do crosstrain for Minmatar. Guess why? Not because of total Amarr uberness. I think we can easily agree that the necessity to crosstrain for the use of other race's ships or weapon systems is an absurdity. Congrats on working up your way to fly all four races. Sincerely. But allow me to say that I won't bother with that. I don't pay CCP an amount of money every month to be told (or rather not being told) that after getting some insight in the game I seemed to have chosen the wrong (as in "inferior") player race. And thus should spend some extra months just to get on par with other player races and STFU about it. I read that in some Quarterly issue it was stated that Amarr players make up less than 15% of the player base. Maybe there lies the real issue why (Amarr) fixes take so long (if they are applied at all). ECM kinda ruled in 2006, got nerfed, gets a buff in 2007 now. So... how long ago did lasers totally rule? Because I see no buff at all forthcoming there. Maybe almost half of the player base has characters of a certain race which thus gets more attention by CCP? I think many of the rather imperious and unbalancing demands for buffs to Amarr may have their reasons therein. The feeling of almost total neglect caused by being a minority, and, to some extent, the lack of communication from CCP. And, tbh, a big part of the non-Amarr part of the community is in no way helpful with this issue, too, IMHO.
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.03 08:00:00 - [629] Edited by: insidion on 03/12/2007 08:04:54 Originally by: Dlardrageth You have how many million skillpoints? First off, just wanted to say gj on the excellent post. It's nice to see someone focusing on the issues instead of 'you (sux0rs\|rule) because you (love\|hate) amarr'. I currently have just over 35m sp which to some might sound like enough, BUT when you break it down I have pretty pathetic PVP skills compared to those who focus more on the DPS. Early on in my character's life, I made some key decisions. I realized that learning was mathematically a must, so I first maxed that out completely (5.76m sp in learning, almost made me quit eve right there, but I did it, and this was before the free SP and reduced learning changes so imagine how much that made me choke). Next, I realized that there was pretty much no way that I could effectively compete as a new fish in the pond, so I focused largely on ewar and support skills so that I could make already effective pilots on my team even better. From there I branched out into probing skills and eventually wasted a ton of SP in industry (seemed like a good idea at the time). The final decision that I made was to build my character as a jack of all trades rather than to specialize on any one specific race. I fly all t1 combat ships (all races), all t2 frigs (all races), all t2 cruisers (gallente only). So I can fly majority of ships but at the exclusivity of avoiding entire ship classes (capitals and command ships). Regardless of all of that, I feel that amarr ships are not unusually skill intensive. The only issues that stand out to me are the ones that I've repeatedly mentioned and are the ones that just about everyone can agree on. I feel that these are essential and long overdue issues that really are easy to address. Quote: And I do crosstrain for Minmatar. Guess why? Not because of total Amarr uberness. I think we can easily agree that the necessity to crosstrain for the use of other race's ships or weapon systems is an absurdity. I absolutely agree with you, however people need to realize that this is not an Amarr issue....frankly, this is 'life in eve'. Part of what sparked my initial urge to crosstrain was the simple fact that at the time, the Caldari ships that I could use were unavailable in the area of space my corp was hanging out in. Based on my 'experiment' of learning all four frig 5's, I would advise anyone to crosstrain for a wide variety of classes. I know I will. =) Quote: ut allow me to say that I won't bother with that. I don't pay CCP an amount of money every month to be told (or rather not being told) that after getting some insight in the game I seemed to have chosen the wrong (as in "inferior") player race Aye, there's the rub. Again, you are absolutely right. It's possible that a ship or even a class can seem unappealing to people for a wide variety of reasons....costs, training, differences in playstyle, differences in ideology, you name it. But I must again dismiss that this is an Amarr specific issue. Some people will only fly BS, some will only fly inty's, some will only fly a certain race. The biggest issues that amarr face are the ones that I outlined. Addressing just those simple points would be MASSIVE strides towards a balanced solution where everyone is happy. Quote: I read that in some Quarterly issue it was stated that Amarr players make up less than 15% of the player base. It's possible, but personally I've never felt a correlation between my race and what I fly, so I don't trust that to be accurate at all. I almost want to agree that Amarr are somehow a minority, but I can't recall the last time I flew in a gang that didn't have at least one amarr ship in it. Quote: And, tbh, a big part of the non-Amarr part of the community is in no way helpful with this issue, too, IMHO Sadly true, but there's the dark side of the Amarr part of the community too. It's pretty clear when someone knows what they're talking about.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.03 22:10:00 - [630] Bumping this for the love of Amarr... Latest Video, Click Here!

Meridius Dex Amarr Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.04 00:58:00 - [631] I have to say I'm always heartened to see non-Amarr players affirming their own desire to see energy weaposn in this game fixed. They must understand how much better this game would be if an entire class of weapons were made at least a conceivable option again for ALL pilots. So why can't the devs? If EVE is all about complexity and innovation, strategy and problem-solving using fittings and modules, how can CCP continue to allow an entire subset of weapon modules to languish, often forsaken even by their own race? -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Oregon sinful The Ankou The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.12.04 01:00:00 - [632] When is this thread going to die? Amarr is the suck, train something else. on the bright side you don't get nerfed! /thread Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes POST WITH YOUR MAIN OR STFU
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.04 10:18:00 - [633] Originally by: Oregon sinful When is this thread going to die? Never while Originally by: Oregon sinful Amarr is the suck, and we need to Originally by: Oregon sinful train something else. show must go on! Originally by: Oregon sinful on the bright side you don't get nerfed! true
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E	Posted - 2007.12.04 10:23:00 - [634] Not one reply from ccp.. there all to chicken.. as they know it will make an avalange of reply`s back in an already big topic.. ->My Vids<-
Law Enforcer Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.04 10:48:00 - [635] you guys have to remember that the average reply on sisi when people ***** about amarr is: "there's nothing wrong with amarr". they're really that dense. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 11:03:00 - [636] Originally by: Law Enforcer you guys have to remember that the average reply on sisi when people *** about amarr is: "there's nothing wrong with amarr". they're really that dense. Thats the problem - they are ignoring Amarr in the hope the problem will go away. It wont, so they should do everyone a favor and refund wasted SP, or actually make an effort to listen about why their customers are complaining. All Amarr people want is Competitive weapons, not OMGBBQ. If devs think lasers are competitive, then that is a joke. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!**
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.04 13:20:00 - [637] I dont think devs ignoring problem - they have no reason to do so. Looks like they just dont understand it. Just like some non-amarr people here who just bought char with abaddon and never flyed different ships and different configs. Of course its better for them first of all boost\nefr caldary\galente races - 65% of players vs 15% Someday amarrs will be fixed properly... or entire race just disapeared becouse no one whant to play for them - horrible, but some sort of fixing In any case im honored to be amarr - not many mans played on hard mode :)
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.04 13:27:00 - [638] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: Oregon sinful on the bright side you don't get nerfed! true Actually, we suffered the NOS nerf to our recons more than any other race (possibly NOS Domis, but at least the Arazu and Lachesis are still 100% effective)... Also, every nerf to nano hits Amarr, not primarily, but as a secondary function... The Zealot is just too slow without an OD, and the Absolution is a brick without a couple of Nanos... Plus the EANM nerf hit Amarr pretty hard, making the so-called 'tanking race' harder to fit a tank. So we get nerfed about as much as the other races, but don't get buffed as much... Latest Video, Click Here!
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2007.12.04 13:30:00 - [639] Wow, talk about clueless. So much writing and so little actual content. Khanid Mk II didn't come about just because it was a :walloftext: you know, you actually need to know what you're talking about to force change, and support it with actual evidence and not badly drawn conclusions. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 13:42:00 - [640] Protip: find naughty boys spreadsheet and work out your DPS calcs correctly with RANGE and TRACKING as a defining factor, and don't use ******** setups like Neutron blasterdomis with no buffer... You will find that the geddon is the best high-dps plate-gank gang ship in the game, followed by the mega and then the abaddon.

PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.04 13:44:00 - [641] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn So we get nerfed about as much as the other races, but don't get buffed as much... also true :) We never get serious nefr but... we take hits from any other race boosts. BTW khanid mk2 is some sort of nefr for amarr build - it forces us to learn additional (useless for us) skill group. And even triniti patch gives us some minior nefr. Testy Mctest - u need serious proof? read this devblog
Sofring Eternus Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.04 14:19:00 - [642] Originally by: GO MaZ Protip: find naughty boys spreadsheet and work out your DPS calcs correctly with RANGE and TRACKING as a defining factor, and don't use ******** setups like Neutron blasterdomis with no buffer... You will find that the geddon is the best high-dps plate-gank gang ship in the game, followed by the mega and then the abaddon. I doubt that takes into account agility or speed, but still, the problem really isnt with the energy weapons damage. The problem is with the stupidly high fitting requirements on beams especially, but to a lesser extent pulses. Also the stupidly high capacitor use on beams, and the slightly over high use on pulses. If they fix that, I think you would see a reduction of Amarr whine threads to about the amount of the other races. --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ Amarr dont need Grr... and RAWR is definately too much, but some Oomph would be nice.
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 14:52:00 - [643] Edited by: GO MaZ on 04/12/2007 14:57:06 Originally by: Sofring Eternus Originally by: GO MaZ Protip: find naughty boys spreadsheet and work out your DPS calcs correctly with RANGE and TRACKING as a defining factor, and don't use ******** setups like Neutron blasterdomis with no buffer... You will find that the geddon is the best high-dps plate-gank gang ship in the game, followed by the mega and then the abaddon. I doubt that takes into account agility or speed, but still, the problem really isnt with the energy weapons damage. The problem is with the stupidly high fitting requirements on beams especially, but to a lesser extent pulses. Also the stupidly high capacitor use on beams, and the slightly over high use on pulses. If they fix that, I think you would see a reduction of Amarr whine threads to about the amount of the other races. It takes into account speed, tracking, range, even resistances and sig radius. Also: Thread Over Also pre-empting
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 14:58:00 - [644] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/12/2007 15:06:04 Originally by: Testy Mctest Khanid Mk II didn't come about just because it was a :walloftext: you know, you actually need to know what you're talking about to force change, and support it with actual evidence and not badly drawn conclusions. Real world pvp scenario. Fleet of Gallente vs fleet of Amarr. Sniping mode, so they are fit for sniping each other at 170km. Since its real world PvP, and these fleets will be dodging bubbles, then the requirement is MWD's as well. Megathorn (7764 Shield, 13551 Arm, 9375 Struct) H: 7 X 425 II, Spike L M: 100mn MWD, Cap Recharger II, 2 x Sensor Booster II L: 3 x mag Stab, 2 x tracking Enhancer II, 1600 Tungstan, Internal Damage Control. (1cpu short for DC II) Armour Resists 65.6% EM, 44.1% Thermal Does approx 175 Kin DPS and 175 Thermal DPS rounding down. Cap lasts 5min, 4 Sec with constant fire. (53,200 Damage Thermal and 53,200 Damage Kinetic done in this time) The Apoc (7764 Shield, 9375 Arm, 8301 Strut) H: 8 x Tach II, Aurora L M: 100mn MWD, 2 x Sensor Booster II, Cap recharger II L: 2 x RCU II, 1 x Heatsink II, 3 x Tracking Enhancer II, 1 x Damage Control II Resists : 44.8% Thermal, 36.3% kinetic Does 149 EM DPS, and 149 Thermal DPS, again rounding down. Cap lasts 6 min, 33 seconds It Starts Ok, first thing, you see the Apoc needs 3 tracking mods and the Mega still has a higher Optimal with 2 tracking mods. Secondly, the Apoc needs 2 RCU II (3 if you dont have max AWU skill), while the Mega needs none. Thirdly, The apoc lacks cpu to move a tracking enhancer to a tracking computer. Also, Apoc has worse tracking and worse falloff, so more Apoc shots will miss. Keep this in mind. Remember, there is no point comparing 3 damage mods on Apoc if the damm thing cannot fit it in the real world! Now Apoc does 149EM DPS, 149 Thermal DPS. So that means on Apoc does total REAL damage on Armour of 66.1 EM DPS + 83.29 Thermal DPS = 149 TOTAL DPS on Armour. Now the Mega does 175 kin DPS, 175 Thermal DPS, So that means the Mega does total REAL Thermal DPS of 96.6 + 111.4 Kin DPS = 208 REAL TOTAL DPS on Armour. On Stucture, Apoc does 298 DPS, Mega does 350 DPS. Obviously, Damage controls turned on will result in even resistances, but the apoc has a DC II while the mega has a Internal, but that does not matter since the Mega does tons more dps than the apoc. Anyhow, the above case study shows a few things. 1. mega does over a third more damage than the Apoc on Armour. The apoc does more DPS on shield of course, but since the apoc is fighting more in falloff than the mega, more if its shots will miss, so this should counteract the effect of slightly more dps on shield. And I mean it really is slightly more. 2. Apoc range broken. 3. Apoc Fittings broken. 2 RCU II (3 if not max skilled) is unreasonable. 4. Fitting and tracking mods use up all of the apocs lowslots, leaving very few for heatsinks/plates etc. 5. Apoc will miss more due to worse tracking and fighting more in falloff 6. Even if Apoc had no fitting issues, Damage output is pathetic 7. Mega has more Armour, more range, more damage, more agility more everything. It outclasses Apoc in every way. CONCLUSION - Mega Does OVER a Third more Damage than Apoc when both fit for the same job and outclasses it in every way / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 15:33:00 - [645] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/12/2007 15:34:12 Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: GO MaZ Your meal started with crap: It appears that you do like to talk crap. Do the numbers on Abaddon and Geddon for fleet fights. I chose the apoc because it was the same Teir. Oh and here is the FUNNY part - If the Apoc used Another races Weapons, it would do more DPS due to better fitting! Tier means nothing. The Abaddon excels when it's fitted with megapulse and a massive plate tank. It's quite obvious from its bonuses that it's not really designed for sniping. The Armageddon is equivalent to the mega in almost every way, both close and long range, and the Hyperion has a niche role as a solo blasterboat and a mediocre sniper, where the Apocalypse is a tank boat and also a mediochre sniper. Welcome to probably the two most balanced battleship races in eve, sirs. And in the spirit of this thread's use of poorly construed facts to prove a point, I present to you the ONLY evidence you need to understand why Amarr don't suck You use Megapulse in a sniper setup? Amarr vs Dominix/typhoon for Damage with guns in your pic? You havent a clue. I aksed you do your numbers before you keep on posting and making yourself look even more silly. i presented a real world fleet scenario, go fit an amarr ship to be COMPETITIVE in it. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Tomato Ketchup	Posted - 2007.12.04 15:34:00 - [646] Originally by: Jonny JoJo you sir, are a n00bier noob. Sir?
Alpha Type Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.04 15:40:00 - [647] Originally by: Jonny JoJo You use Megapulse in a sniper setup? Amarr vs Dominix/typhoon for Damage with guns in your pic? You havent a clue. I aksed you do your numbers before you keep on posting and making yourself look even more silly. i presented a real world fleet scenario, go fit an amarr ship to be COMPETITIVE in it. Okay, okay, for srys this time: http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/5116/dpssq9.jpg Amarr suck at close range too, rite?
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 15:55:00 - [648] Originally by: Jonny JoJo You use Megapulse in a sniper setup? Amarr vs Dominix/typhoon for Damage with guns in your pic? You havent a clue. I aksed you do your numbers before you keep on posting and making yourself look even more silly. i presented a real world fleet scenario, go fit an amarr ship to be COMPETITIVE in it. Ok since you seem to be having trouble with this, here's a quick guide to the forums: Read Thread Read Invidivual Posts Understand Post Make structured and well thought out counterpoints Check reply for correctness once more, and post Not, as you seem to think: Open thread to last page (cos I liked the thread topic!) Read post by bad people saying bad things that I don't agree with MAEK POAST PUSH BHUTAN Also, a healthy understanding of irony and sarcasm could be of use.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.04 16:47:00 - [649] to fit 7 tahs II (with 5 lvl awa) u need 25987 pg. to fit 8 tahs II u need 29700 pg armageddon (with 5 lvl skills) has 20625 (2 rcu nedded to fit), apoc 24475, abaddon 26250. I dont know what you smoke, but i whant all amarr smoke same - maybe then we will have no need in 2-3 rcu in low for every sniper fit BTW - got something to smoke to reduce laser cap usage?
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 16:58:00 - [650] Edited by: GO MaZ on 04/12/2007 16:58:57 Originally by: PeacefullNub to fit 7 tahs II (with 5 lvl awa) u need 25987 pg. to fit 8 tahs II u need 29700 pg armageddon (with 5 lvl skills) has 20625 (2 rcu nedded to fit), apoc 24475, abaddon 26250. I dont know what you smoke, but i whant all amarr smoke same - maybe then we will have no need in 2-3 rcu in low for every sniper fit BTW - got something to smoke to reduce laser cap usage? Oh, ye age old argument about laser cap use. Get a grip, tachyons do 150dps more than the next highest DPS long range weapon, if you want less cap use try using megabeams. Also, you now have 3 rig slots (AND IMPLANTS) to help fit your ships, it's only gotten EASIER to fit the geddon in the last year, not harder, and you have more options to deal with your cap issues.

Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 16:59:00 - [651] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/12/2007 17:01:12 Originally by: Alpha Type Originally by: Jonny JoJo You use Megapulse in a sniper setup? Amarr vs Dominix/typhoon for Damage with guns in your pic? You havent a clue. I aksed you do your numbers before you keep on posting and making yourself look even more silly. i presented a real world fleet scenario, go fit an amarr ship to be COMPETITIVE in it. Okay, okay, for srys this time: http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/5116/dpssq9.jpg Amarr suck at close range too, rite? Are you really that dense? You are going to take megapulse setups to fight snipers 170km away? You pic shows no snipers at all. Amarr Mid-range pvp is another issue as mid-range pvp is almost non-existant, a bit like your logic. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:00:00 - [652] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/12/2007 17:05:16 Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: PeacefullNub to fit 7 tahs II (with 5 lvl awa) u need 25987 pg. to fit 8 tahs II u need 29700 pg armageddon (with 5 lvl skills) has 20625 (2 rcu nedded to fit), apoc 24475, abaddon 26250. I dont know what you smoke, but i whant all amarr smoke same - maybe then we will have no need in 2-3 rcu in low for every sniper fit BTW - got something to smoke to reduce laser cap usage? Oh, ye age old argument about laser cap use. Get a grip, tachyons do 150dps more than the next highest DPS long range weapon, if you want less cap use try using megabeams. Also, you now have 3 rig slots (AND IMPLANTS) to help fit your ships now, it's only gotten EASIER to fit the geddon in the last year, not harder, and you have more options to deal with your cap issues. Hey - Tachyons do less REAL damage because to fit tach, you have to drop 2 damage mods to fit RCU's. And even then, its less REAL dps due to resists. I still see you have Failed to post a Competitive setup to the megathorn. Come on then, take up the challange and prove me wrong. Show us REAL damage, as my comparison shows, Tach does Less REAL damage due to resists than a megathorn can do. Then you go on about rigs. Mega can also fit rigs to far Exceed Amarr BS's even further. Your suggestion is like putting a Plaster on a broken leg. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:12:00 - [653] Edited by: PeacefullNub on 04/12/2007 17:15:33 GO MaZ - and mega\foon\raven etc have no rig slots? i dont see your point - beam lasers are ok becouse we have rig slots and another bs havent? And they cannot use rigs? And rigs are free to have and theyr price has no difference in pvp? I have strong fealing that u (even if char has amarr face) never tryed to fly amarr ships by yourself.
Evil Thug Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:18:00 - [654] Sorry, but your analyzis is crap. You are installing loads of dmg mods on ships, leaving no place for any kind of tank. And forget, that amarr can fit both - have good amount of armor, good resist, and still afford few damage mods. I switched to Apoc from Tempest for fleet fights. Feeling fine, no 5 min reloads in lags. P.S. I checked you @ Insurgency killboard. According by it - you never lost single battleship, yet, you are making analyzis of its performance.
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:26:00 - [655] 2 setups, megathron vs. geddon. Fitting Damage I'd say that considering the geddon costs ~60m to the megathron's ~100m, you have a goddamn awesome sniper. Oh, bear in mind that not every ship has a base resist of 60% on the majority of its HP (shield ships) and that even if you are affected slightly more by high EM / therm resists, you also have higher alpha and higher DPS to compensate. You seem to be misunderstanding the fact here that the higher base resists bring the armageddon, and tachyons in particular, DOWN to the damage level of the other snipers, not worse than. And before you start your "LOOK AT THE FUGGEN TANK ON DAT MEGATHORN [sic]" thats the extra 40m I spent on my megathron. And hey look, less than 30 seconds between the two ships in time the cap lasts.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:30:00 - [656] Originally by: Evil Thug Sorry, but your analyzis is crap. You are installing loads of dmg mods on ships, leaving no place for any kind of tank. And forget, that amarr can fit both - have good amount of armor, good resist, and still afford few damage mods. I switched to Apoc from Tempest for fleet fights. Feeling fine, no 5 min reloads in lags. P.S. I checked you @ Insurgency killboard. According by it - you never lost single battleship, yet, you are making analyzis of its performance. Last time you lost a Amarr battleship was 2005. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:32:00 - [657] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Last time you lost a Amarr battleship was 2005. GJ Looking up his character that has sat in a titan for the best part of a year
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:36:00 - [658] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/12/2007 17:38:42 Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/12/2007 17:36:56 Originally by: GO MaZ Edited by: GO MaZ on 04/12/2007 17:30:50 2 setups, megathron vs. geddon. Fitting Damage I'd say that considering the geddon costs ~60m to the megathron's ~100m, you have a goddamn awesome sniper. Oh, bear in mind that not every ship has a base resist of 60% on the majority of its HP (shield ships) and that even if you are affected slightly more by high EM / therm resists, you also have higher alpha and higher DPS to compensate. You seem to be misunderstanding the fact here that the higher base resists bring the armageddon, and tachyons in particular, DOWN to the damage level of the other snipers, not worse than. And before you start your "LOOK AT THE FUGGEN TANK ON DAT MEGATHORN [sic]" thats the extra 40m I spent on my megathron. And hey look, less than 30 seconds between the two ships in time the cap lasts. Quote: GO MaZ - and mega\foon\raven etc have no rig slots? i dont see your point - beam lasers are ok becouse we have rig slots and another bs havent? And they cannot use rigs? And rigs are free to have and theyr price has no difference in pvp? I never said that it wasn't easier to fit the other ships also, but you CANNOT ignore such a massive influence on fittings and make a comment like "you have to drop damage mods for RCU II's", which is blatant crap, you have the option to either fit less tank, use rigs for your power grid or whatever. Dude - your setups are compleate joke. Look at how many 1600 Plates Mega has. You put 3 x Trimark on mega, and 3 x Cap rigs on Geddon. You put 2 x 1600 plate on mega, and energized Adaptive. Geddon got a 1600plate. And you FORGOT the MWD. Snipers wihtout MWD = dead. So mega with 30k Armour + Energized Adaptive vs Geddon. You really think the geddon is competitive? result = Fail / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Tomato Ketchup	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:37:00 - [659] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Evil Thug Sorry, but your analyzis is crap. You are installing loads of dmg mods on ships, leaving no place for any kind of tank. And forget, that amarr can fit both - have good amount of armor, good resist, and still afford few damage mods. I switched to Apoc from Tempest for fleet fights. Feeling fine, no 5 min reloads in lags. P.S. I checked you @ Insurgency killboard. According by it - you never lost single battleship, yet, you are making analyzis of its performance. Last time you lost a Amarr battleship was 2005. quoting for absolute stupidity I actually put my hand to my mouth and said "oh he did not just say that" in real life
Alei Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:39:00 - [660] just fyi, GO MAZ is win That is all

Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:43:00 - [661] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/12/2007 17:46:21 Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Jonny JoJo Last time you lost a Amarr battleship was 2005. GJ Looking up his character that has sat in a titan for the best part of a year I am talking about his alt, Omeega Fail train coming this way......... / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Alpha Type Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:46:00 - [662] ET has spoken. This thread is now fried gold for hilarious amarr whines and AAA+++ smackdown.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:47:00 - [663] Originally by: Alpha Type ET has spoken. This thread is now fried gold for hilarious amarr whines and AAA+++ smackdown. I bet he, being true to Minmatar, accidently posted with the wrong anti-amarr alt :) / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:50:00 - [664] Edited by: GO MaZ on 04/12/2007 17:53:52 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Dude - your setups are compleate joke. Look at how many 1600 Plates Mega has. You put 3 x Trimark on mega, and 3 x Cap rigs on Geddon. You put 2 x 1600 plate on mega, and energized Adaptive. Geddon got a 1600plate. And you FORGOT the MWD. Snipers wihtout MWD = dead. So mega with 30k Armour + Energized Adaptive vs Geddon. You really think the geddon is competitive? result = Fail Look, the mega is just as dead as the geddon if it gets primaried, an extra plate and a EANM II wont help with that, and IMO that extra tank is fair and balanced given the hundred and something DPS advantage the geddon has over the mega. AS I SAID, you have MANY MANY options to fit your battleship, and if you can't come up with a viable setup then frankly you're doing something wrong and you should just stop trying to be a part of a sniper fleet. You're missing THE WHOLE IDEA of being a sniper; You warp in at range, you put as much damage as possible on a target, and you warp the **** out before you get caught. You don't NEED an MWD to survive if you're not a total moron. Yeah obviously it helps with moving and such, but if it gimps your fit too much by fitting it, then maybe you should think about not fitting it and going with a different setup. Anyone who has used a megathron and an armageddon for an extended period in long range fleet fights will tell you that they're pretty much identical in performance. The geddon caps out faster but does more damage, the mega has slightly longer range and caps out slower. They can both have similar tanks depending on how you fit them, And I can tell you right now that if my character had the same spec skills in amarr as in gallente, I'd be flying the geddon in sniper fleets every single time, even if it meant going from an MWD mega to a MWD-less geddon. That extra thousand odd alpha and the similar or higher dps, as well as instant reloads and ammo changes is nothing to be laughed at (especially in laggy fleet situations) and if you can't see through the numbers to understand how the ships actually work in "real pvp", it's time for you to stop arguing.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:54:00 - [665] GO MaZ - nice setups - but: 168+30 effective range vs 154+25 104k vs 55k effective hp better tracking for mega (25% track bonus vs 50% less cap bonus and geddeon still uses more cap) btw - i read all 23 pages of that topic and most readers sad that amarr needed: 1)beam laser pg reduction 2)real second ship bonus instead laser_cap_reduction 3)50% laser cap reduction as a role bonus (so u dont need 4-5 lvl in bs just to fire theyr weapons) Pls say something about this points - no need to compare sniper setups (tachs have more dps but less range - i think they ballanced at this point)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:55:00 - [666] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/12/2007 17:55:50 Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Jonny JoJo Dude - your setups are compleate joke. Look at how many 1600 Plates Mega has. You put 3 x Trimark on mega, and 3 x Cap rigs on Geddon. You put 2 x 1600 plate on mega, and energized Adaptive. Geddon got a 1600plate. And you FORGOT the MWD. Snipers wihtout MWD = dead. So mega with 30k Armour + Energized Adaptive vs Geddon. You really think the geddon is competitive? result = Fail Look, the mega is just as dead as the geddon if it gets primaried, an extra plate and a EANM II wont help with that, and IMO that extra tank is fair and balanced given the hundred and something DPS advantage the mega has over the geddon. AS I SAID, you have MANY MANY options to fit your battleship, and if you can't come up with a viable setup then frankly you're doing something wrong and you should just stop trying to be a part of a sniper fleet. You're missing THE WHOLE IDEA of being a sniper; You warp in at range, you put as much damage as possible on a target, and you warp the ** out before you get caught. You don't NEED an MWD to survive if you're not a total moron. Yeah obviously it helps with moving and such, but if it gimps your fit too much by fitting it, then maybe you should think about not fitting it and going with a different setup. Anyone who has used a megathron and an armageddon for an extended period in long range fleet fights will tell you that they're pretty much identical in performance. The geddon caps out faster but does more damage, the mega has slightly longer range and caps out slower. They can both have similar tanks depending on how you fit them, And I can tell you right now that if my character had the same spec skills in amarr as in gallente, I'd be flying the geddon in sniper fleets every single time, even if it meant going from an MWD mega to a MWD=less geddon. That extra thousand odd alpha and the similar or higher dps, as well as instant reloads and ammo changes is nothing to be laughed at (especially in laggy fleet situations) and if you can't see through the numbers to understand how the ships actually work in "real pvp", it's time for you to stop arguing. have you ever PvP'ed in fleets? Try asking any alliance(AAA, RA, BoB, MC etc) that pvp's in fleets and they will tell you that you havent a clue. Do you even fly Amarr? you see, you cannot come up with a competitive setup, so now you are using the "we dont need MWD, we are glass cannon" etc etc. If this is the case, then why fit so many plates? You got your knickers in a twist as you cannot come up with a competitive Amarr setup to the one I posted. You Geddon will Miss most if its shots at 170km, whereas the Mega will not. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!**
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:04:00 - [667] This is getting to be ridiculous. Originally by: Jonny JoJo All Amarr people want is *Competitive* weapons, not OMGBBQ. If devs think lasers are competitive, then that is a joke. Yeah, you're right. I've said it repeatedly now, but apparently you're not interested. 1. fix laser fittings 2. fix laser cap usage 3. give amarr ships a real bonus instead of laser cap usage But you're not seeking balance as you claim are you? If you were, you wouldn't keep trying to do 'square peg in the round hole'. All I see is 'whine whine whine, my ship can't do <this> like <insert ship name here>'. Try posting constructive solutions to what you view are issues with Amarr ships instead. Originally by: Jonny JoJo And you FORGOT the MWD. Snipers wihtout MWD = dead. So mega with 30k Armour + Energized Adaptive vs Geddon. You really think the geddon is competitive? Again, the absurd obsession with an MWD. If you're setup as a sniper, and you're being overrun by an MWDing ship that's already causing you to flee, maybe you should be warping out. Originally by: Jonny JoJo CONCLUSION - Mega Does OVER a Third more Damage than Apoc when both fit for the same job and outclasses it in every way Of COURSE it does. As usual, you want every possible advantage without any of the drawbacks. If you want to fly a 4k range ship that uses an MWD to get there, don't fly a geddon and whine about how it's not a mega. Fly a mega. Ever occur to you that maybe Amarr ships can snipe, but are not the best snipers? Maybe it's because you're king of the mid range? And why do you completely disregard the math when it doesn't support your arguments pushing for 'omgwtfpwn' setups? And the comment about how khanid mk2 is a nerf because you have to learn a new weapon system....unbelievable. Every other race already has to do that, and they throw you weapons systems that actually fulfill everything you complain about as being lacking (range, accuracy, multiple damage types, fittings, etc) and all you do is cry even more. Either you're on board for a balanced solution, or you're not. If you have your own agenda of trying to regain the glory days of 8 heatsink multiple MWD laser spewing ships, which it sure as hell seems like you are, then you're doing a lot more harm than good to the Amarr cause. And stop using the forums like they were Paint By Numbers, sheesh.
Evil Thug Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:07:00 - [668] Edited by: Evil Thug on 04/12/2007 18:07:34 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Alpha Type ET has spoken. This thread is now fried gold for hilarious amarr whines and AAA+++ smackdown. I bet he, being true to Minmatar, accidently posted with the wrong anti-amarr alt :) 1. Omeega is not my alt. 2. I not "true to Minmatar" as you said. I have big variety of eve characters that can fly any ship in this game. I think amarr as whole race is fine. Some ships - yes, do require boost. - Zealot. Damage mods stacking nerf - destroyed idea of this ship. "Clumsy, no tank. But if i start to shoot - every ship will melt like a butter". Need to work something out. - Curse \ Pilgrim. Nos nerf - hit those ships badly. Same as Zealot - main idea of ship - destroyed. - Apoc. Very hard to fit at least 7 tachs on it. Slightly cpu boost - and it will be fine. If you want to fit full rack of guns - get Co-Proc in low. Rest ships, in my opinion - is fine, and can kill any other ship of similar class in 1v1, and have its own place in big fleets.
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:08:00 - [669] Originally by: Jonny JoJo have you ever PvP'ed in fleets? Try asking any alliance(AAA, RA, BoB, MC etc) that pvp's in fleets and they will tell you that you havent a clue. Do you even fly Amarr? you see, you cannot come up with a competitive setup, so now you are using the "we dont need MWD, we are glass cannon" etc etc. If this is the case, then why fit so many plates? You got your knickers in a twist as you cannot come up with a competitive Amarr setup to the one I posted. You Geddon will Miss most if its shots at 170km, whereas the Mega will not. Come on, answer my Challange, how much REAL Dps are the ships going to do for a Competitive Setup OK, this is the last gameplay hint I'm going to give you. Theres these things called modules right, you fit them on your ship. They change your ship's or weapons attributes in many different ways. One type of module is the tracking enhancer or the tracking computer. If you want better range or tracking, replace modules designed for tanking or speed. Every single ship has to do this, every single setup is a compromise between damage, tank, range, cap sustainability, tracking etc. It's not like amarr pilots have it any different; EVERY race has to do this, you are getting the equivalent in almost every was as a tier 2 or tier 3 sniper in a tier 1, 60 million ship. And finally, go check out a tach apoc's alpha; somewhere in the region of 2700 damage as opposed to the armageddon's 2300 and even higher with close range ammo, it's not a statistic to dismiss.
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:11:00 - [670] Originally by: Evil Thug Edited by: Evil Thug on 04/12/2007 18:07:34 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Alpha Type ET has spoken. This thread is now fried gold for hilarious amarr whines and AAA+++ smackdown. I bet he, being true to Minmatar, accidently posted with the wrong anti-amarr alt :) 1. Omeega is not my alt. 2. I not "true to Minmatar" as you said. I have big variety of eve characters that can fly any ship in this game. I think amarr as whole race is fine. Some ships - yes, do require boost. - Zealot. Damage mods stacking nerf - destroyed idea of this ship. "Clumsy, no tank. But if i start to shoot - every ship will melt like a butter". Need to work something out. - Curse \ Pilgrim. Nos nerf - hit those ships badly. Same as Zealot - main idea of ship - destroyed. - Apoc. Very hard to fit at least 7 tachs on it. Slightly cpu boost - and it will be fine. If you want to fit full rack of guns - get Co-Proc in low. Rest ships, in my opinion - is fine, and can kill any other ship of similar class in 1v1, and have its own place in big fleets. Agreeing with this, apart from curse. Amarr as a whole is fine, some of the ships need a boost, but they're generally great pvp ships. I don't agree with the curse needing a boost because it's still quite effective at neuting, even if it's not all that viable as a solo ship anymore.

Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:14:00 - [671] Originally by: insidion This is getting to be ridiculous. Originally by: Jonny JoJo All Amarr people want is *Competitive* weapons, not OMGBBQ. If devs think lasers are competitive, then that is a joke. Yeah, you're right. I've said it repeatedly now, but apparently you're not interested. 1. fix laser fittings 2. fix laser cap usage 3. give amarr ships a real bonus instead of laser cap usage But you're not seeking balance as you claim are you? If you were, you wouldn't keep trying to do 'square peg in the round hole'. All I see is 'whine whine whine, my ship can't do <this> like <insert ship name here>'. Try posting constructive solutions to what you view are issues with Amarr ships instead. Originally by: Jonny JoJo And you FORGOT the MWD. Snipers wihtout MWD = dead. So mega with 30k Armour + Energized Adaptive vs Geddon. You really think the geddon is competitive? Again, the absurd obsession with an MWD. If you're setup as a sniper, and you're being overrun by an MWDing ship that's already causing you to flee, maybe you should be warping out. Originally by: Jonny JoJo CONCLUSION - Mega Does OVER a Third more Damage than Apoc when both fit for the same job and outclasses it in every way Of COURSE it does. As usual, you want every possible advantage without any of the drawbacks. If you want to fly a 4k range ship that uses an MWD to get there, don't fly a geddon and whine about how it's not a mega. Fly a mega. Ever occur to you that maybe Amarr ships can snipe, but are not the best snipers? Maybe it's because you're king of the mid range? And why do you completely disregard the math when it doesn't support your arguments pushing for 'omgwtfpwn' setups? And the comment about how khanid mk2 is a nerf because you have to learn a new weapon system....unbelievable. Every other race already has to do that, and they throw you weapons systems that actually fulfill everything you complain about as being lacking (range, accuracy, multiple damage types, fittings, etc) and all you do is cry even more. Either you're on board for a balanced solution, or you're not. If you have your own agenda of trying to regain the glory days of 8 heatsink multiple MWD laser spewing ships, which it sure as hell seems like you are, then you're doing a lot more harm than good to the Amarr cause. And stop using the forums like they were Paint By Numbers, sheesh. Eh? 1. MWD on snipers in fleet = Essental. You can MWD out of bubbles, do 180 warp out in 10 seconds max etc etc. Look at losses from all top pvp fleet alliances - they all have MWD. 2. Khanid was a great thing. I think they should go a step further and even add a missile BS. I never said there was anything wrong with it, it is you making that up. Every Amarr pilot i know is more than delighted with the change, since it made useless ships viable again. 3. Of course I know Amarr cannot snipe anyware near as good as other races. The Anti-Amarr crown beleive that they can, and they cannot find a competitive setup for a Amarr ship to Snipe in. 4. Nobody wants a return of 8 heatsink Geddon. However, 8 heatsink Geddon before was OMGBBQ because it had more lowslots and lowslots = win in olden days. Being concearned about balance is good, that is why we want Amarr to be balaenced with Real world PVP. Mid range pvp died with the Nano age, so CCP needfix amarr to work in todays PvP enviroment / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:14:00 - [672] 2 Evil thug I think you forgot harbinger in your ship fix list.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:20:00 - [673] Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Jonny JoJo have you ever PvP'ed in fleets? Try asking any alliance(AAA, RA, BoB, MC etc) that pvp's in fleets and they will tell you that you havent a clue. Do you even fly Amarr? you see, you cannot come up with a competitive setup, so now you are using the "we dont need MWD, we are glass cannon" etc etc. If this is the case, then why fit so many plates? You got your knickers in a twist as you cannot come up with a competitive Amarr setup to the one I posted. You Geddon will Miss most if its shots at 170km, whereas the Mega will not. Come on, answer my Challange, how much REAL Dps are the ships going to do for a Competitive Setup OK, this is the last gameplay hint I'm going to give you. Theres these things called modules right, you fit them on your ship. They change your ship's or weapons attributes in many different ways. One type of module is the tracking enhancer or the tracking computer. If you want better range or tracking, replace modules designed for tanking or speed. Every single ship has to do this, every single setup is a compromise between damage, tank, range, cap sustainability, tracking etc. It's not like amarr pilots have it any different; EVERY race has to do this, you are getting the equivalent in almost every was as a tier 2 or tier 3 sniper in a tier 1, 60 million ship. And finally, go check out a tach apoc's alpha; somewhere in the region of 2700 damage as opposed to the armageddon's 2300 and even higher with close range ammo, it's not a statistic to dismiss. im still waiting for a competitive REAL dps setup, I know how to use modules, but you have a idea of fleet warfare that nobody but newbies have. Evil Thug, apologies as i thought Omeega was your alt. Can I ask you though, your Apoc, do you only use it because of lag and do you use it in a 6, 7 or 8 tach setup? / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Evil Thug Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:20:00 - [674] Originally by: PeacefullNub 2 Evil thug I think you forgot harbinger in your ship fix list. I never flew harbinger. And I preffer to talk about ships only if i personally flew em.
Evil Thug Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:24:00 - [675] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Jonny JoJo have you ever PvP'ed in fleets? Try asking any alliance(AAA, RA, BoB, MC etc) that pvp's in fleets and they will tell you that you havent a clue. Do you even fly Amarr? you see, you cannot come up with a competitive setup, so now you are using the "we dont need MWD, we are glass cannon" etc etc. If this is the case, then why fit so many plates? You got your knickers in a twist as you cannot come up with a competitive Amarr setup to the one I posted. You Geddon will Miss most if its shots at 170km, whereas the Mega will not. Come on, answer my Challange, how much REAL Dps are the ships going to do for a Competitive Setup OK, this is the last gameplay hint I'm going to give you. Theres these things called modules right, you fit them on your ship. They change your ship's or weapons attributes in many different ways. One type of module is the tracking enhancer or the tracking computer. If you want better range or tracking, replace modules designed for tanking or speed. Every single ship has to do this, every single setup is a compromise between damage, tank, range, cap sustainability, tracking etc. It's not like amarr pilots have it any different; EVERY race has to do this, you are getting the equivalent in almost every was as a tier 2 or tier 3 sniper in a tier 1, 60 million ship. And finally, go check out a tach apoc's alpha; somewhere in the region of 2700 damage as opposed to the armageddon's 2300 and even higher with close range ammo, it's not a statistic to dismiss. im still waiting for a competitive REAL dps setup, I know how to use modules, but you have a idea of fleet warfare that nobody but newbies have. Evil Thug, apologies as i thought Omeega was your alt. Can I ask you though, your Apoc, do you only use it because of lag and do you use it in a 6, 7 or 8 tach setup? 1. 6 tachs. I can install 7th tach, but that will require some implant swapping. (-5% cpu to guns, 2% pg implants). When i was fitting it - i didnt had time, hence 6 tachs. 2. Any engagement with me in battleship - will have lag Yes, because of lags. But there is second issue too. My apoc can tank 2 doomsdays at once. Tempest is unable to do so.
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:29:00 - [676] Edited by: GO MaZ on 04/12/2007 18:31:08 Originally by: Jonny JoJo im still waiting for a competitive REAL dps setup, I know how to use modules, but you have a idea of fleet warfare that nobody but newbies have. Evil Thug, apologies as i thought Omeega was your alt. Can I ask you though, your Apoc, do you only use it because of lag and do you use it in a 6, 7 or 8 tach setup? So whats your idea of a "competitive" dps setup then? One where the geddon outdamages every single higher tier sniper ship available apart from the abaddon? Oh wait.... I'm not quite sure how you plan to prove the geddon is worse than its counterparts and therefore why a blanket boost of lasers / amarr ships is required... I mean, as opposed to just spewing out the same crap every time someone disputes a point you make. I can almost see you sitting at your computer right now with your fingers in your ears whistling as loud as you can to try and block out the logic
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:30:00 - [677] Originally by: Evil Thug Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Jonny JoJo have you ever PvP'ed in fleets? Try asking any alliance(AAA, RA, BoB, MC etc) that pvp's in fleets and they will tell you that you havent a clue. Do you even fly Amarr? you see, you cannot come up with a competitive setup, so now you are using the "we dont need MWD, we are glass cannon" etc etc. If this is the case, then why fit so many plates? You got your knickers in a twist as you cannot come up with a competitive Amarr setup to the one I posted. You Geddon will Miss most if its shots at 170km, whereas the Mega will not. Come on, answer my Challange, how much REAL Dps are the ships going to do for a Competitive Setup OK, this is the last gameplay hint I'm going to give you. Theres these things called modules right, you fit them on your ship. They change your ship's or weapons attributes in many different ways. One type of module is the tracking enhancer or the tracking computer. If you want better range or tracking, replace modules designed for tanking or speed. Every single ship has to do this, every single setup is a compromise between damage, tank, range, cap sustainability, tracking etc. It's not like amarr pilots have it any different; EVERY race has to do this, you are getting the equivalent in almost every was as a tier 2 or tier 3 sniper in a tier 1, 60 million ship. And finally, go check out a tach apoc's alpha; somewhere in the region of 2700 damage as opposed to the armageddon's 2300 and even higher with close range ammo, it's not a statistic to dismiss. im still waiting for a competitive REAL dps setup, I know how to use modules, but you have a idea of fleet warfare that nobody but newbies have. Evil Thug, apologies as i thought Omeega was your alt. Can I ask you though, your Apoc, do you only use it because of lag and do you use it in a 6, 7 or 8 tach setup? 1. 6 tachs. I can install 7th tach, but that will require some implant swapping. (-5% cpu to guns, 2% pg implants). When i was fitting it - i didnt had time, hence 6 tachs. 2. Any engagement with me in battleship - will have lag Yes, because of lags. But there is second issue too. My apoc can tank 2 doomsdays at once. Tempest is unable to do so. Thanks for the info. I can see a 6 tach Apoc has a lot of potental as I see you focused a lot on tank. So if you see a hostile titan that doomsdays, and a backup titan that doomsdays anyone trying to lockdown a titan, you can be a entry point for dictors to warp to even after double doomsdays. I im guessing here, but that looks like a great concept. Secondly, if you dont mind, what is your thoughts on MWD's in fleet snipers as you can see a lot of people wondering why a MWD should be used on a Fleet battleship? / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:34:00 - [678] Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Jonny JoJo im still waiting for a competitive REAL dps setup, I know how to use modules, but you have a idea of fleet warfare that nobody but newbies have. Evil Thug, apologies as i thought Omeega was your alt. Can I ask you though, your Apoc, do you only use it because of lag and do you use it in a 6, 7 or 8 tach setup? So whats your idea of a "competitive" dps setup then? One where the geddon outdamages every single higher tier sniper ship available apart from the abaddon? Oh wait.... I'm not quite sure how you plan to prove the geddon is worse than its counterparts and therefore why a blanket boost of lasers / amarr ships is required. Eh? I am saying that Amarr should be rebalaced to be competitive in todays pvp enviroment. It is you that is jumping to conclusions about how this should be done. After all, the Mega setup I posted outclassed the Apoc one in every way Better Optimal, Better Range, better REAL damage, better armour buffer etc etc. Surely, that is the 8 heatsink geddon equavalent in todays pvp? / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
BlackHorizon Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:35:00 - [679] Edited by: BlackHorizon on 04/12/2007 18:36:02 pfft Apoc sucks (better than a Tempest though), Abaddon ftw :p
BlackHorizon Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:36:00 - [680] Edited by: BlackHorizon on 04/12/2007 18:35:54 edit double

GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:37:00 - [681] Originally by: Jonny JoJo
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:43:00 - [682] Edited by: GO MaZ on 04/12/2007 18:44:11 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Eh? I am saying that Amarr should be rebalaced to be competitive in todays pvp enviroment. It is you that is jumping to conclusions about how this should be done. After all, the Mega setup I posted outclassed the Apoc one in every way Better Optimal, Better Range, better REAL damage, better armour buffer etc etc. Surely, that is the 8 heatsink geddon equavalent in todays pvp? Stop ignoring everything which doesn't support your whine, how would you rebalance amarr and how do you think THE ENTIRE RACE is currently unbalanced? (given the data previously posted in this thread?)
Evil Thug Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:58:00 - [683] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Secondly, if you dont mind, what is your thoughts on MWD's in fleet snipers as you can see a lot of people wondering why a MWD should be used on a Fleet battleship? Must have. First dictor bubble and if you are without mwd - you are dead.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:59:00 - [684] Originally by: GO MaZ Edited by: GO MaZ on 04/12/2007 18:44:11 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Eh? I am saying that Amarr should be rebalaced to be competitive in todays pvp enviroment. It is you that is jumping to conclusions about how this should be done. After all, the Mega setup I posted outclassed the Apoc one in every way Better Optimal, Better Range, better REAL damage, better armour buffer etc etc. Surely, that is the 8 heatsink geddon equavalent in todays pvp? Stop ignoring everything which doesn't support your whine, how would you rebalance amarr and how do you think THE ENTIRE RACE is currently unbalanced? (given the data previously posted in this thread?) Exceuse me, it is you that is clutching at straws to find ANYTHING that you can use as proof that Amarr are powerful so that they dont get fixed. 1. You fail at Ad homiem. Amarr races is not unblanced, Laser ships + EW are. The missle Amarr ships look fine to me, as they were Rebalanced to be competitive in todays enviroment. I am sure everyone agrees, that these missile ships were total crap before they got rebalaced by ccp. 2. I would fix lasers so they no longer require same cap as heavy Nos II drain to use, and reduce powergrid so people can fit them without 2-3 RCU's. They should still use more cap than railguns of course. 3. But then again, when CCP spends time rebalancing a ship, they do a good job of it. The thing is, they havent done so for amarr laser + EW ships yet, so the sooner this is done, then Amarr will have competitive ships again. Now if you dont agree to fix Amarr laser + EW, then perhaps the trusty CCP nerf to the mega is a better option? Which would you prefer, as the mega sniper outclasses amarr snipers in pretty much every way, as described earlier. So how would you nerf the mega to be competitive with Amarr, if you dont want the other way around? After all, it is only you that is suggesting that once race should BBQ another. I think that all that needs to happen is fair balance, since no ship is ever going to be 100% perfect forever. This means that CCP should review ships regularly and rebalance uncompetitives ones, regardless of what race they are from. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 19:00:00 - [685] Originally by: Evil Thug Originally by: Jonny JoJo Secondly, if you dont mind, what is your thoughts on MWD's in fleet snipers as you can see a lot of people wondering why a MWD should be used on a Fleet battleship? Must have. First dictor bubble and if you are without mwd - you are dead. Thanks for your time Evil, I hope GO MaZ relises that MWD is a must have on a BS now. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.04 19:07:00 - [686] how do you think THE ENTIRE RACE is currently unbalanced? (given the data previously posted in this thread?) this is oficial statistic (i love this link). It shows that something wrong with amarr ships (not race) - and u cannot denie that fact. 4th place isnt good - and even minmatar (3rd place) have twice more ships build than amarr (not need to say about caldary\gallente). If amarr ships are ok and have use, then why so many people used another races ships in game? So whats wrong with amarr ships then? lets see main differences: 1)Laser use more cap than hybrids (not saying about projektiles and missiles) and amarr ships have allmost same cap as theyr analogs (3-6% greater) 2)Allmost all amarr ships have bonus for laser cap usage instead of real bonus (like ALL other ships) So, logicaly, amarr problem somewere there. And khanid mk2 is good proof of that logic - theyr ships are ok (they use missiles and have no laser cap bonuses). Do not make mistake - amarr have some good and usefull ships - but sadly - another races have more, much more. And it need fix.
Xenny Lee Minmatar coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.04 19:21:00 - [687] You my good sir are an idiot flying amarr, how you fit your baddon was where I stopped having credibility for your way of thinking... For One, you just don't fit the abaddon to be an Active tank like you would a Hyperion. You just don't... You can put a Large armor rep to be able to fix damage, but like the rokh, these aren't ships specialized in active tanking... You plate the sucker, or put trimarks on it with slaves, max out resists and then laugh at how you have over triple the effective hit points you put up in that chart or over any other ship. (add gang bonuses and you will NEVER want to call primary the Abaddons in a turtle gang) Also... for two: if you want solo pwnmobile gank boats that you know just MWD to the target, sit on top of it and blast away with Max dps.... freaking train some gallente skills, NOTHING is stopping you from training them... and NOTHING is stopping you from being able to fly more then JUST amarr.
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 19:41:00 - [688] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Exceuse me, it is you that is clutching at straws to find ANYTHING that you can use as proof that Amarr are powerful so that they dont get fixed. 1. You fail at Ad homiem. Amarr races is not unblanced, Laser ships + EW are. The missle Amarr ships look fine to me, as they were Rebalanced to be competitive in todays enviroment. I am sure everyone agrees, that these missile ships were total crap before they got rebalaced by ccp. 2. I would fix lasers so they no longer require same cap as heavy Nos II drain to use, and reduce powergrid so people can fit them without 2-3 RCU's. They should still use more cap than railguns of course. 3. But then again, when CCP spends time rebalancing a ship, they do a good job of it. The thing is, they havent done so for amarr laser + EW ships yet, so the sooner this is done, then Amarr will have competitive ships again. Now if you dont agree to fix Amarr laser + EW, then perhaps the trusty CCP nerf to the mega is a better option? Which would you prefer, as the mega sniper outclasses amarr snipers in pretty much every way, as described earlier. So how would you nerf the mega to be competitive with Amarr, if you dont want the other way around? After all, it is only you that is suggesting that once race should BBQ another. I think that all that needs to happen is fair balance, since no ship is ever going to be 100% perfect forever. This means that CCP should review ships regularly and rebalance uncompetitives ones, regardless of what race they are from. Sniper battleship comparison on standard EANM II + DCU Tank Looks pretty balanced, no? But then what about the the ability to change ammo instantly in the middle of laggy as **** fleet battles, and no reloads? Over time you end up doing more damage because you don't have to reload, and you get cap trouble as a limiter otherwise people would simply screw the other races and fly amarrian battleships for fleets. I fail to see how guns that do the same or more dps as the other races equivalents, without reload, and (with your proposed cap reduction) probably continue to fire forever are balanced at all. There has to be a downside to balance out the almost-arty-like alpha, "decent" tracking, acceptable range and lack of reloading. Ignoring the Apoc, amarrian battleships are pretty much the baseline for long range sniping, whereas the other races either have increased alpha, range or tracking. I'll accept that certain amarrian ships have some problems, but it is NOT to do with the cap use of lasers, and IMO at least reducing fittings on all lasers would just break amarr. Can you imagine an abaddon with tachyons and an almost-megapulse-geddon-equivalent plate tank doing pulse-like damage at 30k and able to damage out to 120+km without any tracking mods? Yeah, that's not balanced.
Sofring Eternus Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.04 20:07:00 - [689] Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Jonny JoJo Exceuse me, it is you that is clutching at straws to find ANYTHING that you can use as proof that Amarr are powerful so that they dont get fixed. 1. You fail at Ad homiem. Amarr races is not unblanced, Laser ships + EW are. The missle Amarr ships look fine to me, as they were Rebalanced to be competitive in todays enviroment. I am sure everyone agrees, that these missile ships were total crap before they got rebalaced by ccp. 2. I would fix lasers so they no longer require same cap as heavy Nos II drain to use, and reduce powergrid so people can fit them without 2-3 RCU's. They should still use more cap than railguns of course. 3. But then again, when CCP spends time rebalancing a ship, they do a good job of it. The thing is, they havent done so for amarr laser + EW ships yet, so the sooner this is done, then Amarr will have competitive ships again. Now if you dont agree to fix Amarr laser + EW, then perhaps the trusty CCP nerf to the mega is a better option? Which would you prefer, as the mega sniper outclasses amarr snipers in pretty much every way, as described earlier. So how would you nerf the mega to be competitive with Amarr, if you dont want the other way around? After all, it is only you that is suggesting that once race should BBQ another. I think that all that needs to happen is fair balance, since no ship is ever going to be 100% perfect forever. This means that CCP should review ships regularly and rebalance uncompetitives ones, regardless of what race they are from. Sniper battleship comparison on standard EANM II + DCU Tank Looks pretty balanced, no? But then what about the the ability to change ammo instantly in the middle of laggy as **** fleet battles, and no reloads? Over time you end up doing more damage because you don't have to reload, and you get cap trouble as a limiter otherwise people would simply screw the other races and fly amarrian battleships for fleets. I fail to see how guns that do the same or more dps as the other races equivalents, without reload, and (with your proposed cap reduction) probably continue to fire forever are balanced at all. There has to be a downside to balance out the almost-arty-like alpha, "decent" tracking, acceptable range and lack of reloading. Ignoring the Apoc, amarrian battleships are pretty much the baseline for long range sniping, whereas the other races either have increased alpha, range or tracking. I'll accept that certain amarrian ships have some problems, but it is NOT to do with the cap use of lasers, and IMO at least reducing fittings on all lasers would just break amarr. Can you imagine an abaddon with tachyons and an almost-megapulse-geddon-equivalent plate tank doing pulse-like damage at 30k and able to damage out to 120+km without any tracking mods? Yeah, that's not balanced. Great, now try fitting the guns because of the fitting requirements on beams. Or how about Cap sustainability, since the beams use up 3x the amount of cap as rails, so the beams will stop shooting before the rails need to reload. And every time people compare DPS, they take into account the reload time on the Hybrid and Projectile turrets. You arent losing DPS to reloading, because its already taken into account. Unless you are talking about human delay between when the gun finishes reloading and reactivating it. --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ Amarr dont need Grr... and RAWR is definately too much, but some Oomph would be nice.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.04 20:10:00 - [690] Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Jonny JoJo I'll accept that certain amarrian ships have some problems, but it is NOT to do with the cap use of lasers, and IMO at least reducing fittings on all lasers would just break amarr. Lets return to core problem (no - it isnt about sniper geddeon): 2006-07 year t1 statistic (t2 even whorse) all places are 4rth (whell - 3d in BS category). You still think that our ships are fine? And ALL eve comunity just stupid and didnt realize that? how could you explain only 1 oficial fact in this tread?

GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 20:17:00 - [691] Originally by: PeacefullNub Lets return to core problem (no - it isnt about sniper geddeon): 2006-07 year t1 statistic (t2 even whorse) all places are 4rth (whell - 3d in BS category). You still think that our ships are fine? And ALL eve comunity just stupid and didnt realize that? how could you explain only 1 oficial fact in this tread? Because amarrian ships aren't much use in PVE situations? Seriously, without a ship-by-ship breakdown there's little to no point in that table. You can't argue that your ships are crap because a table showing the overall production of amarrian ships is low, there's many more factors to it than that and I'd wager it's not that the ships are crap.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 21:03:00 - [692] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/12/2007 21:04:56 Originally by: GO MaZ I'll accept that certain amarrian ships have some problems, but it is NOT to do with the cap use of lasers, and IMO at least reducing fittings on all lasers would just break amarr. Can you imagine an abaddon with tachyons and an almost-megapulse-geddon-equivalent plate tank doing pulse-like damage at 30k and able to damage out to 120+km without any tracking mods? Yeah, that's not balanced. Sorry, you are thinking of Rokh with Faciton Antimatter. You linked a Screenshot which took into account reloading time, but did not take into account how long Amarr would be able to fire for. So by the time the other ships reload, amarr do close to 0 DPS due to no cap. Secondly, your Graph is incorrect. It assumes that the Amarr ship has infinite Powergrid. This is not the case, and therefore is it not possible to have a real world pvp fitout with as many damage mods as your graph indicates. Please re-do the graph with the correct mods fitted, as the setup and range shown is not possible for a real sniper to acheive in a Amarr ship with max skills. (and yes, that includes fitting the MWD, something that pvpers use) Maz, you have compleatly lost the plot. you obviously dont fly Amarr, otherwise you would relise how expensive Amarr crystals (pvp ones) are, and how quickly they burn up. you have no clue about the reloading crystal bug in eve, meaning that crystals can take as long as, if not longer to change as conventional ammo. Having pre-fitted crystal is usually advisable, however a Amarr ship can carry approx 30-40mil of crystals. This is like a Raven carrying 15,000 to 20,000 Caldari Navy Cruise missles when he blows isk wise. Then you spout some crap about Amarr being baseline for Long range sniping, obviously you forget that I have already shown you that Amarr are the worst snipers in the game. Anybody who knows anythng about sniping knows MWD is essential, and you dont relise this yourself. As such, I am still waiting for your sensible Geddon or Abaddon setup that is Competitive in terms of "REAL DPS" done. And dont give me fancy biased charts that assume Amarr have infinite cap/Powergrid, give us a fitout, that anyone can plug into EFT and see how well Amarr does. You cannot find something competitive, can you? But I thik the funnyist thing was when you said that there is nothing wrong with Lasers. Hello? 2-3 x RCU II means Amarr have 4-6 lowslots in reality, and crap optimal of Tach with Aurora means 3 Tracking Enhancers to be able to hit at 170km in falloff. Look, you are obviously trolling, and you never flew amarr because it is only today you relised that Fitting mods and range mods take up most of Amarr lowslots. Post again with your Competitive Amarr Setup or dont bother posting at all. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 21:50:00 - [693] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/12/2007 21:10:34 Secondly, your Graph is incorrect. It assumes that the Amarr ship has infinite Powergrid. This is not the case, and therefore is it not possible to have a real world pvp fitout with as many damage mods as your graph indicates. Please re-do the graph with the correct mods fitted, as the setup and range shown is not possible for a real sniper to acheive in a Amarr ship with max skills. (and yes, that includes fitting the MWD, something that pvpers use) Maz, you have compleatly lost the plot. you obviously dont fly Amarr, otherwise you would relise how expensive Amarr crystals (pvp ones) are, and how quickly they burn up. you have no clue about the reloading crystal bug in eve, meaning that crystals can take as long as, if not longer to change as conventional ammo. Having pre-fitted crystal is usually advisable, however a Amarr ship can carry approx 30-40mil of crystals. This is like a Raven carrying 15,000 to 20,000 Caldari Navy Cruise missles when he blows isk wise. Look, you are obviously trolling, and you never flew amarr because it is only today you relised that Fitting mods and range mods take up most of Amarr lowslots. Post again with your Competitive Amarr Setup or dont bother posting at all. Again please read THIS if you want to see Amarr sniper problems vs megathorn for example. I'm not going to continue arguing with someone who thinks that cap recharger II's are acceptable midslot modules on a sniper ship, that an apocalypse is the equivalent sniper of the megathron (oh hey, the apoc is ****, we know this), that a sniper battleship cannot function without a MWD, and then you cite a totally unrealistic scenario where a single megathron is shooting at a single apoc, where a ship WITH a damage bonus outdamages a ship WITHOUT a damage bonus (Well duh, thats some awesome reasoning there genius). You only have to look ingame to see the popularity of the armageddon and the abaddon in sniper fleets (just look at pretty much any fleet engagement between any 2 medium - large size entities, they perform very similarly to all the other sniper ships), so I guess some people are using it correctly where you seem to be failing miserably. And no, a Rokh doesn't even come close to the dps put out by an abaddon with tachyons.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.04 22:01:00 - [694] Originally by: GO MaZ Because amarrian ships aren't much use in PVE situations? orly? Do you belive this? Ok - here is t2 production. Only 1 amarr ship is there -malediction (he uses rokets btw) Here top T1 (no amarrs died in pvp, where is geddeon, abaddon and apoc?) and T2 loses (malediction is only 1 amarr ship - what surprise). So amarrs used in pvp, but they dont build theyr ships and dont die. Even mighty owerpowered BS dissapeared. Ok ok i pretend im totaly stupid - lets play in your game. Caldari great for pve. Gallente and minmatar great for both. (so 3 race have use in pve) And why not amarrs? 1 - low cap for firing and tanking (laser cap need fix) 2 - only 1 useful pve bonus (real second bonus needed) 3 - cant chose another type of damage (all other could) 4 - beams hard to fit So amarrs need boost at least for pve Originally by: GO MaZ Seriously, without a ship-by-ship breakdown there's little to no point in that table. Of course - all this tables i paint myself and put them in devblog to lie to you. You just dont whant to see and your exscuses become more and more childish.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.04 22:58:00 - [695] Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/12/2007 21:10:34 Secondly, your Graph is incorrect. It assumes that the Amarr ship has infinite Powergrid. This is not the case, and therefore is it not possible to have a real world pvp fitout with as many damage mods as your graph indicates. Please re-do the graph with the correct mods fitted, as the setup and range shown is not possible for a real sniper to acheive in a Amarr ship with max skills. (and yes, that includes fitting the MWD, something that pvpers use) Maz, you have compleatly lost the plot. you obviously dont fly Amarr, otherwise you would relise how expensive Amarr crystals (pvp ones) are, and how quickly they burn up. you have no clue about the reloading crystal bug in eve, meaning that crystals can take as long as, if not longer to change as conventional ammo. Having pre-fitted crystal is usually advisable, however a Amarr ship can carry approx 30-40mil of crystals. This is like a Raven carrying 15,000 to 20,000 Caldari Navy Cruise missles when he blows isk wise. Look, you are obviously trolling, and you never flew amarr because it is only today you relised that Fitting mods and range mods take up most of Amarr lowslots. Post again with your Competitive Amarr Setup or dont bother posting at all. Again please read THIS if you want to see Amarr sniper problems vs megathorn for example. I'm not going to continue arguing with someone who thinks that cap recharger II's are acceptable midslot modules on a sniper ship, that an apocalypse is the equivalent sniper of the megathron (oh hey, the apoc is **, we know this), that a sniper battleship cannot function without a MWD, and then you cite a totally unrealistic scenario where a single megathron is shooting at a single apoc, where a ship WITH a damage bonus outdamages a ship WITHOUT a damage bonus (Well duh, thats some awesome reasoning there genius). You only have to look ingame to see the popularity of the armageddon and the abaddon in sniper fleets (just look at pretty much any fleet engagement between any 2 medium - large size entities, they perform very similarly to all the other sniper ships), so I guess some people are using it correctly where you seem to be failing miserably. And no, a Rokh doesn't even come close to the dps put out by an abaddon with tachyons. 1. MWD on Sniper Battleships. Even Evil Thug has sait it is a must have, and every top pvper has one in fleet battles on Snipers. There is only 1 reason why you dont like them - It proves your setup of 30k Armour Mega vs 10k Armour geddon as being as stupid as it really is. 2. Cap recharger II - Please tell me what else you are going to put in that slot, given CPU/Grid constraints on both ships I mentioned? Come on, im waiting for an answer! If oyu check killboards, lots of Mega pilots have a relay or a Cap recharger II to soak up a slot when CPU/Grid is used up. 3. You assume 1v1 apoc vs Mega. Yet I shown the facts that fleet setup Mega outdamages Apoc by over a third. That is over 50% more Damage in terms of REAL DPS after resists. Want a abaddon with a 25% damage bonus to catch up with this 50% gap? Again, you refuse to do the numbers. 4. Then you say rokh does not come close to Abaddon Damage with Tach. Abaddon can sustain 1 Tach, rokh can sustain 4x 425 II Rails. Rokh would obviously do more damage in prolonged fights then, and if you look at REAL damage done by Abaddon on Armour, compared to a Faction Ammo Rokh with Tracking mods in mids, you will see the rokh do some more damage. So you fail, now begone troll, and return once you have a sensible Amarr fitout, since I have not found a single person who actually wins fleet battles agree with anything you say. / CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!**
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.12.04 23:36:00 - [696] Edited by: GO MaZ on 04/12/2007 23:44:10 Originally by: Jonny JoJo LALALALALAL I'M GOING TO SIT HERE WHISTLING LIONEL RICHIE TUNES WITH MY FINGERS IN MY EARS SO I CAN'T HEAR YOU, WHINE WHINE BUHU There, FYP. Also rather than me trying to prove that amarr ships are an asset in a fleet, how about you try to prove they're not; like an example of how you've failed in a PVP fit amarr battleship?
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.05 01:04:00 - [697] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Again please read THIS if you want to see Amarr sniper problems vs megathorn for example. Question reguarding those fits.. If they are fit to fight at 170km as you say why have you fitted 3x tracing enhancer when only 2 are needed? If you fit 2 giving you a 180km range you get to fit a second heat sink 2 giving you better dps. And both the fits you posted do better than the tempest. If you cant do 0.0 warfare come back for some real pvp face to face in low sec. 0.0 Fleet warefare sux
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.05 23:59:00 - [698] Originally by: Aranbaal Originally by: Jonny JoJo Again please read THIS if you want to see Amarr sniper problems vs megathorn for example. Question reguarding those fits.. If they are fit to fight at 170km as you say why have you fitted 3x tracing enhancer when only 2 are needed? If you fit 2 giving you a 180km range you get to fit a second heat sink 2 giving you better dps. And both the fits you posted do better than the tempest. If you cant do 0.0 warfare come back for some real pvp face to face in low sec. 0.0 Fleet warefare sux Amarr have poor range, so Mega with 2 Tracking enhancers has higher optial than Any amarr BS with 3 tracking enhancers. Remember Amarr has worst falloff so droping a tracking enhancer to improve dps is a false economy, since you will most most of your shots.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.06 13:19:00 - [699] Bumping this as the large patch has come and gone now and there is still no sign of an Amarr balancing patch... Devs please at least say you're looking in to it for us! Latest Video, Click Here!
watermelon420 Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.07 05:43:00 - [700] No one likes us. All the amarr should gather up and revolt.

SnakeByte86	Posted - 2007.12.07 06:03:00 - [701] Not a single dev reply in 24 patches. Further proof CCP does not listen to players. They nerf everything, over and over. This game was so much more fun 2 years back.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.08 07:50:00 - [702] For those who dont whant to read all 24 pages - short summary of Amarr serial: - Research amarrian ships (on an example of BS with identical fit) by topic starter: amarr BS averages on all parameters, except of cap usage - where they are worst. - Small disputes of correct fits (which still proceed) - Small disputes on the fact of a problem (which still proceed) - the precise argument and the analysis, except for personal conjectures of debaters, is not revealed. - Disputes on ways of fixing (many different suggestions) Here points, on which agreed majority of readers: 1) Fixing laser cap usage 2) Giving real second bonus and moving laser_cap_usage to role(faction) bonus of ship 3) Fixing fit reqs for beam lasers Here some disputable points: 1) Adding another type of damage to lasers 2) Fixing omnitank setups and high em resists General conclusions on this tread: 89 % of readers agreed with necessity of amarr fixing . 7 % agreed that some problem exists, but are not consent with research of topic starter and/or ways of fixing. 3 % dont see any problem with amarrs.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.08 09:27:00 - [703] Originally by: PeacefullNub For those who dont whant to read all 24 pages - short summary of Amarr serial: - Research amarrian ships (on an example of BS with identical fit) by topic starter: amarr BS averages on all parameters, except of cap usage - where they are worst. - Small disputes of correct fits (which still proceed) - Small disputes on the fact of a problem (which still proceed) - the precise argument and the analysis, except for personal conjectures of debaters, is not revealed. - Disputes on ways of fixing (many different suggestions) Here points, on which agreed majority of readers: 1) Fixing laser cap usage 2) Giving real second bonus and moving laser_cap_usage to role(faction) bonus of ship 3) Fixing fit reqs for beam lasers Here some disputable points: 1) Adding another type of damage to lasers 2) Fixing omnitank setups and high em resists General conclusions on this tread: 89 % of readers agreed with necessity of amarr fixing . 7 % agreed that some problem exists, but are not consent with research of topic starter and/or ways of fixing. 3 % dont see any problem with amarrs. QTF. (though your % total adds up to 99%, there was 1% of people who just posted in this thread for a flame than caring for broken Amarr issues) Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig
Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2007.12.08 13:27:00 - [704] i seem to remmeber Devs Q&A not so long ago saying "Amar Didnt get ther "Umff" yeat....and it looked like it will happen soon. still waiting. and yes, amar is not that bad, but, after snad a half years in eve i can feet armageddon rather well..the problem is that people with the same skill point as me can fit domenix much, much better. infact sinse i wasn in this game i saw galante steadely improove, (and improove some more in trinity) amar however improoved once ( with all teh traching) btu then slowly keeped getting wothr with all the chenges that suport other races.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.08 20:24:00 - [705] Originally by: Anacrit Mc'Sinister Edited by: Anacrit Mc''Sinister on 08/12/2007 13:45:30 Edited by: Anacrit Mc''Sinister on 08/12/2007 13:43:14 i seem to remmeber Devs Q&A not so long ago saying "Amar Didnt get ther "Umff" yeat....and it looked like it will happen soon. still waiting. and yes, amar is not that bad, but, after 2 a half years in eve i can fit armageddon rather well..the problem is that people with the same skill point as me can fit domenix much, much better. infact sinse i wasn in this game i saw galante steadely improove, (and improove some more in trinity) amar however improoved once ( with all teh traching) btu then slowly keeped getting wothr with all the chenges that suport other races. infact i can also fit apocalipe rather well, with 2 reps, tank and guns and a sustaneble cap with cap booster. the blem is that is my friends can fit a megath. with guns and 2 reps and cap booster and MWD (for all perpuses that a bs will use it)and sustain a resonable cap. i can also fit recon ships..with a minor problem that al the other recon ships can solo kill me in no time since my hi slots are no longer of any use. and asult frigs ....well, one has no DPS the other has one mid slot and abit of DPS..infact coming to think of that - who flys amarr asult ships. ps Quote: No one likes us. All the amarr should gather up and revolt. yeah...lets do that. IF you remember that Q & A thread you probably remember the devs saying "At no point have we sat down and say lets tinker with amarr." Really, it really seems like a lost cause. The devs think that the #1 problem with amarr are the omni-tanks and high EM resists, thats it. It has nothing to do with our cruisers sucking ass, the zealot sucking, the BCs lagging behind the competition, the apoc abomination, the FAKE bonus (-10% cap use), cap recharge meaning nothing due to cap boosters(sub capital), and crappy fittings. Its a joke. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Gerardd	Posted - 2007.12.08 20:58:00 - [706] Best post ever! On any forum! My most sincere compliments. Even though not Amarr, I hope this gets corrected. I sort of regret starting of as Caldari but after gathering all those sps you really cannot start over anymore. But again, my compliments!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.08 21:02:00 - [707] Give up on Devs fixing Amarr Insted, call a MASS NERF on Minmatar, Caldari and Gallente so that they are competitive with Amarr. Devs love nerfing! Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.09 00:22:00 - [708] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Give up on Devs fixing Amarr Insted, call a MASS NERF on Minmatar, Caldari and Gallente so that they are competitive with Amarr. Devs love nerfing! I like your sigs! Anyway, I've found a solution to the Amarr problem... Train Minmatar! The Hurricane is so awesome it's unbelievable. Not only has this new skill path lead me to see that Amarr suck so much, but since I've been flying the Hurricane, loads of other Amarr pilots I fly with have trained the Hurricane and all agree it's 100x better than any Amarr ship! As for actual solutions to Amarr, well here's a few: Change the Curse and Pilgrim bonuses to allow them to fit heavy nos/neuts rather than give medium nos/neuts the stats of heavies (solves the range problem with the Pilgrim, and gives the Curse a much needed extra EW bonus). Adjust the 'Controlled Bursts' skill to 15% per level rather than 5% per level, and change hybrid weapons accordingly so they use the same amount of cap, but lasers use half the amount. Take off all cap bonuses on Amarr ships, and give them something useful, like Tracking for example (much needed as pulses have the worst tracking, still). Give the Apoc a role change, by giving it a 10% bonus per level to energy transfer amount, and a 10% bonus per level to energy weapon damage. Drop down to 6 gun hardpoints, drop to 6 lows, and add a mid, adjust the speed and agility so it can move and align slightly faster, but increase the mass so it can't use MWD or be a nano ship very well. Also, give it more sensor strength, and scan res. Give the Harbinger another 50 CPU to bring it in line with other tier 2 BCs. Give the Zealot another 10 CPU to bring it in line with other HACs. Introduce high damage explosive crystals (tech 3 crystals, 50% range of conflag, same damage, but 30% EM, 20% Thermal, 50% explosive), due to being t3 only, has a chance to damage guns over long-term use. Fix the range and speed on the Malediction, take off a high, give it a low, give rockets a range bonus, or adjust the damage bonuses to apply to light missiles too and adjust the fittings accordingly. This may require the crusader losing a low for another high or mid, but neither ceptor does a very good job at the moment. Give the Anathema more CPU so it can actually fit modules on top of a probe launcher, to bring it in line with other covert ops ships. Increase the agility or decrease the mass of the Absolution so it can actually move and function with an MWD on. Increase the effectiveness of tracking disruptors to actually make them a useful mod (ever notice how no pilgrim/curse setups use them?). Give all Amarr ships an extra 15%-20% capacitor capacity so we have a racial trait like other races. Implement all of these here, and Amarr will be fixed. Oh, and decrease the fitting requirements and cap consumption of beam lasers, or give all amarr ships a lot more powergrid! Latest Video, Click Here!
Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2007.12.09 01:23:00 - [709] could ve please have Devs reply to this.. cou we have a "NO - we will not chenge amarr, we think they are fine as they are" or " yes, we wil be loking in to it at some point" i would be really great to know if the we should abbandon our eforts or and move on, or wait for better time
SirFett	Posted - 2007.12.09 01:39:00 - [710] hers one for ****s and giggles flew thru jita today decided to look at heavy dictor prices phobos - 240ish broadsword - 280ish onyx - over 300mil devoter ? nobody even fking bothered to put one on the market lol i wonder why

Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.09 08:50:00 - [711] Originally by: Anacrit Mc'Sinister could ve please have Devs reply to this.. cou we have a "NO - we will not chenge amarr, we think they are fine as they are" or " yes, we wil be loking in to it at some point" i would be really great to know if the we should abbandon our eforts or and move on, or wait for better time The Devs have given up on Amarr. I remember someone stating canceling accounts with Amarr as the reason, but I personally, I think devs should honer pettitions for moving Amarr sp to other races Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Zel Nughat Amarr Nughat Corp	Posted - 2007.12.09 14:16:00 - [712] /signed
Mystica Shadowheart Amarr Regnum-Irae Deus Ex.	Posted - 2007.12.09 14:33:00 - [713] /signed
Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2007.12.09 15:08:00 - [714] i must say i wouldnt like that to happen. it would mean that you have to tanslate your skill sin weaponry. and not to mention that the only thing you can become is Galante...or theyll have to translate half of your mechanical skills in to shields and navigation... i dont think that can be an answer.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2007.12.09 15:28:00 - [715] With the nano-paste around now I thought that Amarr can use more overheating because they don't need so much ammo and thus can store more paste in their cargo. So to add to this lasers and Amarr faction modules could be made more resistant to heat damage. That would be a Amarr boost that wouldn't go out of bounds so easily.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.09 17:11:00 - [716] Originally by: Abrazzar With the nano-paste around now I thought that Amarr can use more overheating because they don't need so much ammo and thus can store more paste in their cargo. In pvp you need all cargo space for cap boosters, so amarrs have same cargo problems as others. In pve you dont need overheat at all...
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.10 11:44:00 - [717] This needs more signatures and over 1000 posts... Latest Video, Click Here!
Jones Maloy Minmatar Unified Naval Command	Posted - 2007.12.10 12:02:00 - [718] check out my sig. polishes it. sparkle. --- Originally by: Kagura Nikon .......That is why I started an alt to be completely specced in ammar. Because eventually CCP will buff it...... rofl
Nomme 5ILEX	Posted - 2007.12.10 12:26:00 - [719] Nice work and a good read thanks. The interceptor comparison is a bit off imo,Crusader Taranis and Claw are short range tacklers anti-inty,soft target,killers. Crow is a B**stard Ship and half way between the Muscle Inties and the Ranged tacklers Raptor Ares ect. Sure cap issues could be a problem but if your fight is taking the amount of time this becomes and issue to your effectiveness,you need to be flying another ship class. Either you can drop in and Zap your target and get out,or you kite them. Its DPS or Speed either way not cap.
Andreask14 Alterum - Infinitus - Fabula Dragons Of Oceans	Posted - 2007.12.10 13:03:00 - [720] That is a solid analysis and proof that amarr got neglected many patches ago. I mean, if there are three types of battleships, each race should have one that comes out on top in any one contest, but for amarr, there is none that does so. Fun fact: fitting a mwd to any amarr laser baot reduces its ammo capacity by 25%. Sadly, amarr is not worth specializing in at the moment, but i did so in the past so i have to life with it. Just glad i cross trained a raven for missions and a domi for pvp, you dont even need tech 2 weapons to be effective in these ships. Lasers were once the kings off everything even remotely called a turret boat, by now they are just a shadow of their former glory and yield only average results at best. I wonder why amarr players get hurt that bad just because there were times when everyone and their mother flew a geddon into pvp, but these times are gone long scince.

Lithel Amarr The Soviet Galactic Union	Posted - 2007.12.10 14:42:00 - [721] Edited by: Lithel on 10/12/2007 14:42:25 /signed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2007.12.10 14:43:00 - [722] /Signed ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Vrabac Amarr BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.12.10 14:49:00 - [723] /signed And please give me back my tracking disruptors. Plated gank ships are ok for a short time but you really need to have some fun here and there.
Anya Sardukar	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:40:00 - [724] Signed. I've had it told to me that people complain about Amarr because they're not "one-ship gankmachines." The problem with this is that everyone else seems to be.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:30:00 - [725] Originally by: Anacrit Mc'Sinister could ve please have Devs reply to this.. cou we have a "NO - we will not chenge amarr, we think they are fine as they are" or " yes, we wil be loking in to it at some point" i would be really great to know if the we should abbandon our eforts or and move on, or wait for better time There was a thread started by some agonny unleashed guy that had a ton of developer input. To summarize though; Devs: Its all omni tanking/armor resists fault!!! Someguy: What about this, this and this.. Devs: I still think its the resistances. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Dah' Khanid Conisor Excavations Syndicate Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.12.10 19:37:00 - [726] /signed especially about the sniping ships, give them some love :( and as written many times - amazing that you've taken your time to do this long post containing nearly every imaginable fact there is. GJ Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Mrski Okupator Amarr The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.11 01:58:00 - [727] /Signed. For what it's worth. It seems teh universe has trampled over Amarr. Cap advantage is a joke since Cap injectors are a STANDARD. No EWar capability OR potential on ships most vulnerable to it. Gallente (and now Calamari too) have higher dps. And better type ones. And no, EM is not usually the lowest rez. Everybody and their mother can tank. Lamezor's effectiveness do nor justify their insane cap use/fitting req. Khanid mk2 is good. No lamezors. And minmatars could use some love too. And Kronos should have it's 5 heavy drones. And as far as popularity goes> People usually get informed about a product they are about to pay for. And Caldari seem to be all the rage. Eve on Easy and whatnot. Some favouring other races from eve marketing would fix this perhaps? ___ Apocalypse Mining. Mine your way to heaven. What playing Amarr feels like. Shamelessly snatched from Almarez.
Valadeya uthanaras Killjoy.	Posted - 2007.12.11 02:49:00 - [728] To Op: good job at making a quick and more than decent comparison between the battleships SIGNED, with blood on the screen
Alexace Gallente Bright New Dawn Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.12.11 03:12:00 - [729] Lazers are really messed up. The cap bonus is useless and the fittings are crazy. Give amarr a second bonus and yoou will go a very long way to fixing them. P.S. WTF @ Tracking Disrupt Nerf? BOOST AMARR!!!!!!!!!!!
Decimo DEATH'S LEGION	Posted - 2007.12.11 04:02:00 - [730] /signed Also, the Sentinel, bad ship or worst ship? Not to mention our Marauder is definitely the worst of the 4.

Darqness Reign Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.11 04:40:00 - [731] Well, I just made this guy, and I'm gonna make a go of it anyway. I love the look of the ships and lasers. I just hope these issues are addressed, and soon.
Doomsday	Posted - 2007.12.11 10:09:00 - [732] /signed
Kasak Black The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.12.11 10:32:00 - [733] I think I've already signed this but I'll sign it again. /signed
Blutreiter Pelennor Swarm R i s e	Posted - 2007.12.11 10:37:00 - [734] Amarr got from trinity: Tracking disruptor nerf plus Arbitrator drone bandwidth reduction. We totally rock now \o/ /signed Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up*
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.11 11:02:00 - [735] /signed once again Yes what did amarr get in this patch, sod all thats what. Paladin has nothing over the abbadon Arbitrator get reduced
Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2007.12.11 11:05:00 - [736] Edited by: Anacrit Mc''Sinister on 11/12/2007 11:05:37 actually arbitrator was improoved and so were the tracking destruptors. arby can pack 3 waves of mid drones and tracking destruptors are now more fitted to siferent situations. the fact is that arby is the only improvement
Blutreiter Pelennor Swarm R i s e	Posted - 2007.12.11 11:06:00 - [737] Originally by: Anacrit Mc'Sinister Edited by: Anacrit Mc''Sinister on 11/12/2007 11:05:37 actually arbitrator was improoved and so were the tracking destruptors. arby can pack 3 waves of mid drones and tracking destruptors are now more fitted to siferent situations. the fact is that arby is the only improvement Can I have something of what you are smoking? Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up*
John Blackthrone Caldari Fnord Works	Posted - 2007.12.11 11:09:00 - [738] plz buff amarr....too bad that im Caldari with everthing in lazOrs and amarr ship skills ;( so: /SIGNED
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.11 11:57:00 - [739] Edited by: Felysta Sandorn on 11/12/2007 11:57:10 Apocalypse Comparison: Using realistic setups for the Apocalypse, it becomes pretty obvious that this ship is very badly designed. The following are three plate setups for the Apocalypse using different weaponry, and an analysis of the stats they give. Drones are not used to compare (as they would be the same for each ship), and all skills are at level 5 with a 3% turret CPU implant: Neutron Apocalypse: Fitting: 8x Neutron II, 2x Magstab II, 2x 1600mm Tung, 2x EANM II, Co-Pro II, 100mn MWD II, Heavy Cap Booster II, 2x Sensor Booster II Ammo: Void L Volley Damage: 3557 Damage Per Second: 771 Effective Hitpoints: 71,479 Cap Sustainability (Guns Only): 7m 54s Range: 6.8+6.3 (13.1, 19.4) AC Apocalypse: Fitting: 8x 800mm AC II, 2x Gyro II, 2x 1600mm Tung, 2x EANM II, Damage Control II, 100mn MWD II, Heavy Cap Booster II, Faint Warp Prohibitor I, X5 Web Ammo: Hail L Volley Damage: 2739 Damage Per Second: 594 Effective Hitpoints: 94,635 Cap Sustainability (Guns Only): Infinite Range: 3+10 (13, 23) MegaPulse Apocalypse: Fitting: 8x MegaPulse II, 2x Heat Sink II, 2x 1600mm Tung, 2x EANM II, Co-Pro II, 100mn MWD II, Heavy Cap Booster II, Warp Disruptor II, Stasis Webifier II Ammo: Conflagration L Volley Damage: 3049 Damage Per Second: 661 Effective Hitpoints: 71,479 Cap Sustainability (Guns Only): 6m 11s Range: 15+10 (25, 35) Analysis: The Neutron setup comes out on top damage, as expected, but uses a lot less cap than the MegaPulse setup. This means that it can fire for much longer, greatly increasing DPS in the long-run. The AC setup has very poor damage, again, as you would expect, however due to the easier fitting requirements of projectiles, it means you can forego the CPU mod and add a damage control as well as tackling gear, giving more than 20k more hitpoints and making it an effective sologank machine! The fact that it needs no cap to fire also puts this above the MegaPulse setup. Now fitting MegaPulse lasers on to the Apoc, youÆd think would give you an advantage, due to the bonuses the ship getsà This is however unfortunately wrong, and in reality the MegaPulse setup uses the most cap (despite itÆs bonuses), has the joint least amount of hitpoints, and is the hardest to fit (without AWU 5, you cannot fit this and would have to drop nearly 200 PG in order to do so). The interesting thing to note at this point is that the MegaPulse lasers do 110 DPS less than Neutrons, but only 65 DPS more than 800sà Surely this means that they are in the middle of the two, and should therefore use the middle amount of cap and have the middle fittings? Not the case. MegaPulse lasers are the hardest to fit on Power Grid, and use the most cap of all the guns. Even with a ship bonus of 50% less cap use for lasers, they still use more cap to fire than Neutrons. Is this broken? Considering the flaming I got for not including range the first time round, it should be pointed out that this time I have included range, and all ships can effectively fight up to 20km using close range ammo. However all setups include an MWD, meaning range can be dictated. All ships have over 50% effectiveness in web range, therefore can all get within range and kill just as their DPS dictates. It should also be pointed out that pulse lasers have the worst tracking of all three guns mentioned above, by about 25%. Looking at this, youÆd have to be a fool to fit lasers on an Apocà Just fit Neutrons! More DPS, more cap, more PowerGrid, different damage typesà Only downside is less CPU, but you can still make effective setups without CPU. More fuel to the fireà Latest Video, Click Here!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:06:00 - [740] To the post above: Yeah this is exactly the problem. The hidden laser damage bonus doesnt exist. The cap use reduction bonus on our ships is a fake bonus also. It cant be really more clear then this. This is pretty much the problem with all amarr ships that dont have a damage/rof bonus but only the cap reduction bonus. Their damage is so sub-par its not funny. Lasers are inherently broken and ccp needs to fix it. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice

Dillius Archania Amarr The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:23:00 - [741] /signed Ridiculous amounts of proof here that there is a problem. How can they not take notice and at least respond?
IDIOTAS Vaporalis	Posted - 2007.12.11 13:39:00 - [742] /signed
Ooyama Caldari Rastana CMP	Posted - 2007.12.11 13:49:00 - [743] /signed. Fly an Abaddon evry day (missions, as it's useless for pvp i think), and have 2 options only,, damage or tank,, a mix of that is allmost impossible (if u don't want to have to wait for every "next room" jump, so u can regen cap). Ooyama. Originally by: Bimjo you sir are quite right my humble apologies I shall park my navy raven in 0.0 for you to come and destroy with your ducktaped missile launcher on your shuttle
Valadeya uthanaras Killjoy.	Posted - 2007.12.11 15:04:00 - [744] Again, so true at looking at that comparison I mean you have better use of other races weaponry than your own, even if you have a bonus with it dev, give us a response plz
Drago Katsov Caldari Maelstrom Crew Mournival Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.11 16:21:00 - [745] If you want a real analysis of Amarr and there battleships then read this. Reply here if you like to save you registering. You can read why its a flawed analysis, hence flawed conclusion using 2 of the best amarr ships (and best BS) in EVE to try and prove "amarr suck". If you didn't just agree to everything that has "boost amarr" running through it and posted reasonable comparisons and fixes to ships that truely need them like the Omen and Maller rather than wasting time posting about the best ships (in practice and theory) theres more chance of something actually being done.
Potes Amarr Dkiller Delta Force Corp. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.11 16:26:00 - [746] Pls just fix laser cap usage and give us our rightfully deserved bonus!!!! give us that and we will all go away and be happy little amarrians firing lasers at heretics and leave your poor forums alone. / signed potes
Meridius Dex Amarr Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.11 17:03:00 - [747] /signed I canceled my subscription last week after another frustrating loss in my gimped Amarrian ship. So if the devs do not respond to these genuine handicaps by sometime in late January when it runs out, that will do it for me. Thanks for wasting my time with a poorly-designed MMO, CCP. -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Jones Maloy Minmatar Unified Naval Command	Posted - 2007.12.11 17:48:00 - [748] Originally by: Darqness Reign Well, I just made this guy, and I'm gonna make a go of it anyway. I love the look of the ships and lasers. I just hope these issues are addressed, and soon. honest to god, stop training amarr this instant! 99% chance they will never be fixed. you will regret going with amarr if you stick with it. delete your char and make a new one from the other races. if you stay with amarr the gaming experience will be miserable. --- Originally by: Kagura Nikon .......That is why I started an alt to be completely specced in ammar. Because eventually CCP will buff it...... rofl
dssouleater Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2007.12.11 17:48:00 - [749] /signed i am spec amarr , and i keep having to refit my ships after all the 'balancing' in nearly every patch and im finding my ships are a lot worse than any other race after all the nerfs that ccp keep calling 'balancing' and the only that is balanced in amarr ships is the ..hmmm well i cant think of anything... other race weapons are even better than our own that cant be right can it? other ships like for like are more powerful than amarr can fit more than amarr and are generally faster than amarr. i used to love the pilgrim and the curse like many here but i find i can no longer use these ships in combat as they are next to useless !!just better looking vexors expect one has a cloak. nos is next to useless , nuet kills ur cap , weapon disruptors are only half what they used to be (with or without scripts -which were a bad idea and another fancy name for a nerf) . curse can use misiles now great!! no missile bonuses tho..that would be useful. as the ew options are gone , i even tried sensor damps on my curse now that is out of the window with the script rubbish . rant over... buff amarr we need it!
Lord XSiV Amarr Elysium Labs	Posted - 2007.12.11 17:49:00 - [750] Any response from the devs on this (I am thinking about from when they said they were going to 'look' into it)? All Amarr pilots should be keeping this thread on the first page until Amarr is truly balanced (and I don't mean some little augmentaiton that gets nerfed later on) as that seems to be the only thing the gets attention. Bump the thread using stories of real play that show where Amarr unbalance has cost ship loss.

SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.11 19:55:00 - [751] Originally by: Lord XSiV Any response from the devs on this (I am thinking about from when they said they were going to 'look' into it)? All Amarr pilots should be keeping this thread on the first page until Amarr is truly balanced (and I don't mean some little augmentaiton that gets nerfed later on) as that seems to be the only thing the gets attention. Bump the thread using stories of real play that show where Amarr unbalance has cost ship loss. the solution to amarr balance is - anytime a universal nerf occurs that nerfs something an amarr ship has a bonus for to increase that bonus not every amarr ship is weaker than the equivalent of another race so only the weaker ships need more specific roles or increased damage bonuses if a ship is bad unless it gets 3 bonuses then it needs its base boosted Trashed sig, Shark was here
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:29:00 - [752] Originally by: Drago Katsov If you want a real analysis of Amarr and there battleships then read this. Reply here if you like to save you registering. You can read why its a flawed analysis, hence flawed conclusion using 2 of the best amarr ships (and best BS) in EVE to try and prove "amarr suck". If you didn't just agree to everything that has "boost amarr" running through it and posted reasonable comparisons and fixes to ships that truely need them like the Omen and Maller rather than wasting time posting about the best ships (in practice and theory) theres more chance of something actually being done. For every Amarr player that thinks something is wrong, there are 8 non-Amarr players who will say "Stop whining, there's nothing wrong!"... I was expecting a reply like this at some point, but it took a while, probably because there aren't many ways to look at Amarr to make them look good. The argument here is that the majority of PvP ships are plate and damage setups. This may be true if you are a station hugging pirate or an empire wardeccing ganker, but where the majority of PvP involves roaming, tanking, sniping, and actually moving out of dock range, these setups are just as flawed as mine are if you want to station hug and make videos of yourself getting hit while you wait out your aggro timer. Amarr do make good passive tankers, mainly because they have the most armour in comparison to other ships of their class, but that thread also neglects to mention where the Apoc comes, and neglects to point out that the Abaddon is a tier 3 BS, and so SHOULD be at the top. The fact that it ends up below average in the DPS analysis is drastically poor showing for the Amarr golden child. Range is talked about a lot by a lot of people, but at the end of the day, you're either fighting in your optimal, or you're not fighting. And that goes for Minmatar and Gallente pilots too! With the plate setups, you generally don't leave stations or gates, so you always have something to MWD back to if the rubbish hits the fan (I know, I'm a PvPer, despite what most of you may think from the amount I reference EFT). If you're in web range, you're in your optimal. If you're not in web range, go back to the gate and run away. Range is a non-issue, and I really wish people would stop bringing it up. I also fly a Hurricane quite regularly now, and it has a 2km optimal with a 10km falloff or something stupid like that. If I'm not in my optimal, I use my MWD. If there's a huginn there, I MWD back to the gate. If an inty has me webbed, I web him back and kill him! The tracking on projectiles is such that this is possible! Range is a non-issue. Not only all of that, but all of the setups shown in that link use an omni-tank, as it gives the most effective hitpoits... And then goes on to say that damage type is a non-issue? It's okay that the best DPS ship drops down to being the worst DPS ship, and retains it's problems with cap, tracking, fitting, and so on... That's fine, apparently! Also, the 60% explosive resist to shields isn't comparable to the 80% EM resists when the ship has so many armour hitpoints in comparison to shield. That's double the difference! You can't shrug that off! So all that's been taught is that Amarr ships have the most hitpoints... Which we already knew... Good analysis, and thanks for the time and effort put in to it, I know how hard it can be. But if you can say my analysis is flawed, you can't post your own, even more flawed analysis straight after. Also, no offense to the SHC guys, I'm sure most of you are good people, but every time I've visited the site, I've been smacked and shunned for no reason other than that I'm not part of the tight-nit group of players that already exist there, I just don't see it as a friendly forum any more, just a site full of epeens who are unwelcoming to outsiders that have different opinions (which mine is). Latest Video, Click Here!
Drago Katsov Caldari Maelstrom Crew Mournival Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.11 21:42:00 - [753] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn plate/damage stuff, station huging and abaddon being tier 3 so should be best hp and best damage... Clearly you didn't read/understand it all. Clearly stated is that the Abaddon due to being tier 3 so high base HP and its resistance bonus gets around 50k more effective HP. You know how long a rep setup would take to makeup that HP? Minutes and minutes of being shot at and repping, discount hp tanking all you like but its as valid way of tanking as dual rep setups. So you want the Abaddon to not only have the most effective HP by miles, but also the most damage and most range? Crazy and unrealistic. Quote: Range, webbing, jumping stuff. Range is a non-issue. Load of rubbish, your totally discounting the time it takes to get into that optimal. At the battleship level the ships are slowest and the rangers longest, emphasising the travel time which is less of an issue at smaller ship sizes due to lower ranges and quicker ships. At the battleship level which you used in your analysis your totally discounting the extra optimal enabling you to hit more no matter the range while others are traveling. Quote: omni tanking, cap tracking stuff, hp balance Again you failed to read. Its pilot choice if they want active hards or eanm, personally the base EM + bonus from a DC is enough EM resistances for me so I use actives. But I was being consistant for the tanking comparison so used the same on all ships, no way you can critise the analysis for being consistant. Did you notice what a single exp hard does to minmatar damage on all the ammo types? Yeah sucks doesn't it, especially with gallente exp hole so often it gets filled. Cap was covered, geddon has as much issues as a gallente blastership, fitting problems are more with beams. HP balance was covered, read the resistance part again. Structure makes up a significant amount of a ships HP and is always balanced, armour isn't the only HP. All 3 layers of HP were included in the analysis. Quote: So all that's been taught is that Amarr ships have the most hitpoints... Which we already knew... Good analysis, and thanks for the time and effort put in to it, I know how hard it can be. But if you can say my analysis is flawed, you can't post your own, even more flawed analysis straight after. You haven't explained why a analysis which compares all parts of full setups is more flawed than using only part of one setup for damage comparison and part of a different setup for a tank comparison. Then a different ship class to compare cap and so on. Didn't even make assumptions about damage types, each of the most common combinations was looked at. Quote: Also, no offense to the SHC guys, I'm sure most of you are good people, but every time I've visited the site, I've been smacked and shunned for no reason other than that I'm not part of the tight-nit group of players that already exist there, I just don't see it as a friendly forum any more, just a site full of epeens who are unwelcoming to outsiders that have different opinions (which mine is). Laughing Stick around, the more the merrier, sure it can be a bit agressive but if you believe your points and can explain them you can get good discussions, if people are prats ignore them/pm mods. I'd be happy to discuss more on HP tanking vs rep tanking with you but I won't do it here in this topic. What I see here is "we can't do X, we can do Y the best but isn't valid, boost everything" which totally ignores how powerful Y would become. p.s. sorry for the snips, ran out of characters.
Mjnari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2007.12.11 21:47:00 - [754] Man... you guys are so racist. Everyone is having a rough go of it, and it's the Amarr who need to be fixed. ------------------------ Minmatar, It should be like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair shooting an Uzi.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.12 02:21:00 - [755] Give the Apocalypse a role change. A possible solution would be (as I have mentioned previously) 10% to Energy Weapon Damage and 10% to Energy Transfer Amount per level of Amarr Battleship. Drop to 6 turret slots, and change one lowslot to a midslot. Increase the amount of capacitor that the ship has, decrease the capacitor recharge (in order to balance the cap use of guns), and increase powergrid by 2000 and CPU by 50. This would make the ship a more versatile EW platform. It gives the damage of 9 guns at BS 5 (compared to the AbaddonÆs 10 and the GeddonÆs 9.3). Adjust the speed and agility so it isnÆt such a brick, and you have yourself an effective ship again. Amarr need serious attention, and theyÆre not getting it. Do something soon! Latest Video, Click Here!
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.12 02:48:00 - [756] I am a caldari born pilot speced to fly Amarr. What a bad decision I made. Like on paper amarr ships look great, till you fly them.
Min Seong Amarr Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.12 03:23:00 - [757] I like Amarr ships and the intent of thier design and I will continue to fly them. Are they perfect? Absolutly Not.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.12 06:45:00 - [758] Originally by: Min Seong I like Amarr ships and the intent of thier design and I will continue to fly them. I think that is main point why somebody (15%) still fly amarrs - estetic pleasure of design and lasers
Brutus Proqqus	Posted - 2007.12.12 08:52:00 - [759] the only reason i play amarr is because the ships and lasers look cool. If design and style wouldnt mean anything to me i wouldve went and played minmatar and be a typical vaga pilot by now
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.12 09:23:00 - [760] Originally by: Brutus Proqqus the only reason i play amarr is because the ships and lasers look cool. If design and style wouldnt mean anything to me i wouldve went and played minmatar and be a typical vaga pilot by now I think that has got to be the reason why many of us are still here. I love how the golden hulls look, and in an internet spaceship game I wanna use LAZORS!!! Pretty sad eh? Vanity is coming before effectiveness in a pretty spreadsheet simulator An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.

insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.12 09:52:00 - [761] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Give the Apocalypse a role change. A possible solution would be (as I have mentioned previously) 10% to Energy Weapon Damage and 10% to Energy Transfer Amount per level of Amarr Battleship. Drop to 6 turret slots, and change one lowslot to a midslot. Increase the amount of capacitor that the ship has, decrease the capacitor recharge (in order to balance the cap use of guns), and increase powergrid by 2000 and CPU by 50. This would make the ship a more versatile EW platform. It gives the damage of 9 guns at BS 5 (compared to the AbaddonÆs 10 and the GeddonÆs 9.3). Adjust the speed and agility so it isnÆt such a brick, and you have yourself an effective ship again. Amarr need serious attention, and theyÆre not getting it. Do something soon! This is your typical 'amarr solution', and no offence but this is the zaniest and most nonsensical suggestion to redesign the apoc I've ever seen. I keep trying to avoid posting in this thread, but you've GOT to be kidding at this point. It's such an insane suggestion, I don't even know where to begin! Speccing the apoc to do logistics (+10% energy xfer amount) is completely pointless. Fly a logistics ship like .... oh I dunno....the AMARR one?! Large Energy Transer Array I is only usable within 7.5km, t2 is just under 10km. So now we get to hear even more about how your range is useless and you need MWD's on everything for every single situation. Then we'll get to hear about how MWD's are unfair because you can't transfer enough cap. Then you'll whine that the range isn't the same as your lasers and needs to be boosted. Drop down to 6 turrets? wtf for? Relatively speaking it should be at least 7, and imo I see no reason to not leave it at 8. Thought you were for buffing amarr. =P Low to a mid (or two) is just another frolic through 'Homogenization Land', but you whiners are so friggin' good at both whining and completely unimaginative setups that we may as well just do this just to shut you the hell up. 2k PG?! Holy hell! once again....FIX LASER FITTINGS. FFS, I've typed that out a million times now. There is no sane justification for an ~8% increase in PG. +50 CPU?! Deja vu! FIX LAS...you know what, forget it. Yet another unjustified monster increase 'request' . How about we just buff all ships on all races by that much? You can use it effectively as a cap ewar/utility vehicle now...in fact, it does it incredibly well. It's pathetically easy, insanely cheap and absurdly noob friendly to build a gatecrasher specialized in cap ewar that can have ~150k effective HP. The one I fly right now costs me <100m with t2 on it, has 144k effective HP (since you only live by EFT info), can be vastly augmented by cheap and very easily come by rigs (I make my own, but 30m in rigs tops), and has proven so combat effective (especially in gang) that I've NEVER lost one. For my 'noob special' the highest requirement is hull upgrades 3 (prefer 5) and amarr bs 2. A complete noob could be flying this very ship inside of a week and be completely devastating. Let the other ships fit their ewar, their MWD, their cap boosters. It only serves to help this type of build which usually incapacitates (pun of the year award, tyvm) 1 BS per cycle, can handle up to 8 targets (yay advanced targetting skills), and can keep 4 BS perma drained even if THEY have cap boosters. And that's only ONE useful setup. Just because you can't fit an apoc doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the ship.
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.12 10:01:00 - [762] Changing the focus back from the insanity, fixing lasers fixes so much for amarr. Let's re examine the apoc and just deal with the potential laser fixes. 1. We fix laser fittings. Now you can slap on an MWD (roll eyes), dual reps, your grandma's rocket powered wheelchair, whatever the **** you're whining about this week. I really don't care. 2. We fix laser cap usage so that we're not so cap starved. 3. We give the apoc a real bonus of say +10% laser damage per level instead of 10% cap reduction to laser usage, and don't make any other changes for now. Now you could fit such a ship in a myriad of ways, but most importantly it would bring back cap warfare to the amarr. This would be the ideal porcupine effect that would make people think twice about engaging them at close range, bring Nos back into the game (largely under amarr) without making it ridiculous again AND it would help to fuel the lasers in question. Win/win/win/win. =P You could fit say 5 lasers/3 nos. Blow away their shields while they have cap, peck away at them when they're dead in the water, all while having a comfortable range. Fit 8 lasers and a cap booster. Or rely on logistics. Again, I really don't care about arguing the minutia or the semantics, fit it how you like. I'm sorry to really rip on your suggestion to change the apoc, but it really does make me wonder if this is some Tarminic type thread where it's just a joke whine. Suggest BALANCED and well thought out ideas for solutions, not your unstoppable pwnmobile/wet dream machine. =P
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.12 11:33:00 - [763] Edited by: Blutreiter on 12/12/2007 11:33:34 Originally by: insidion Changing the focus back from the insanity... your grandma's rocket powered wheelchair... but most importantly... people think twice about engaging them at close range... Win/win/win/win. =P ... unstoppable pwnmobile/wet dream machine. =P Sorry, honestly... bwahaha (this thread needs moar funny) Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up*
DroneBay Diva The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.12 12:02:00 - [764] ANY kind of dev response on this would be greatly appreciated I'm sure. Honestly, at 26+ pages, this isn't going to go away any time soon. Some kind of a reaction would be awesome. ______________________________________________________________________________________
Leto Nyx Neogen Industries Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.12 12:26:00 - [765] Well, looking at your Armageddon/Domi damage comparison, you seem to have ignored the fact that the Domi simply can't fit all those guns. You'd have to add an RCU to fit it, and you'd need three if you want a LAR II on there as well, which fills all your lows. The Armageddon can fit all those guns and a LAR II easily, and still has powergrid to spare, along with four empty lowslots. ----- Some people are like Slinkies - not really good for anything but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.12 12:48:00 - [766] Insidion, you misunderstood my arguments, or maybe I conveyed them poorly... By energy transfer amount, I was refering to energy vampires and energy neutralisers (though it would also affect energy transfers). This means that at BS 5, one energy neutraliser would neutralise 150% of it's normal amount (effectively being one-and-a-half neuts), and the same for the NOS. The drop to 6 guns and 10% damage per level brings the damage more in line with the other Amarr BS. The Geddon's bonus gives it an effective gun amount of 9.333 guns, and the Abaddon's bonus gives it an effective gun amount of 10 guns. A 50% damage bonus on 6 guns would give an effective gun amount of 9 guns. Less than the other two BS by a small margin, but also benefitting from less cap useage (from less guns). Having the same lowslot and midslot layout as the Abaddon is just rubbish, it renders the ship as having no function whatsoever. If you change a low for a mid, it slightly reduces the tanking ability of the Apoc, but increases the EW capacity, making a much more versatile ship. The fitting adjustments are then there to accommodate two NOS/Neuts in the highslots, not just because of the lasers fitting requirements. After this, an increase in capacitor capacity and a decrease in capacitor recharge time would be needed to port over the original apoc bonuses (let's be honest, at the moment, they're rubbish bonuses, change them to be the base amounts), in order to bring it in line with other BS of it's class (ie be able to use the guns it's designed to use). In short, the ship would have slightly less DPS, better cap management, two utility highs (NOS/Neuts) spare (like the Pest or Raven for example, again bringing it in line with other ships of it's tier), five midslots for EW flexibility, and a 6-slot lowslot tank. Slightly harder to tank than other Amarr ships, but has the utility option there, which Amarr currently lack. Latest Video, Click Here!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.12 12:49:00 - [767] Originally by: Leto Nyx Well, looking at your Armageddon/Domi damage comparison, you seem to have ignored the fact that the Domi simply can't fit all those guns. You'd have to add an RCU to fit it, and you'd need three if you want a LAR II on there as well, which fills all your lows. The Armageddon can fit all those guns and a LAR II easily, and still has powergrid to spare, along with four empty lowslots. I addressed this issue a while back, dropping the Domi to Ions and not needing any fitting mods. The Domi still beat other ships in DPS with lesser guns, and had the spare grid for a plate tank. Latest Video, Click Here!
Min Seong Amarr Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.12 17:18:00 - [768] Originally by: DroneBay Diva ANY kind of dev response on this would be greatly appreciated I'm sure. Honestly, at 26+ pages, this isn't going to go away any time soon. Some kind of a reaction would be awesome. This!
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.12 18:06:00 - [769] if amarr got boosted minmatar would soon get a boost as well Trashed sig, Shark was here
Jantix	Posted - 2007.12.12 18:16:00 - [770] I think this was posted on the wrong website... the OP seems to be playing EFT Online rather than EVE Online.

Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.12 18:22:00 - [771] Originally by: Jantix I think this was posted on the wrong website... the OP seems to be playing EFT Online rather than EVE Online. Well done for reading the entire post... Ironic you should flame someone for using EFT considering your last post as well... Latest Video, Click Here!
Dillius Archania Amarr The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:19:00 - [772] Originally by: Jantix I think this was posted on the wrong website... the OP seems to be playing EFT Online rather than EVE Online. Weakest argument ever. If you're going to knock EFT at least back it up with in game examples.
Alexace Gallente Bright New Dawn Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:08:00 - [773] Originally by: Min Seong Originally by: DroneBay Diva ANY kind of dev response on this would be greatly appreciated I'm sure. Honestly, at 26+ pages, this isn't going to go away any time soon. Some kind of a reaction would be awesome. This! Yeah, us Amarr specced chars need something from the devs. BOOST AMARR!!!!!!!!!!!
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:35:00 - [774] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Insidion, you misunderstood my arguments, or maybe I conveyed them poorly... np, I received them poorly, but I have to admit that I'm just exasperated at this thread at this point. I'm glad that you're rethinking things though. Quote: By energy transfer amount, I was refering to energy vampires and energy neutralisers... Yeah, I tried to cover all contingencies showing why it was a bad idea. It's honestly an interesting idea regarding energy xfer arrays as amarr could be the cap race using these, but you know how people feel about teamwork let alone fitting something in a high slot other than something that does DPS. On top of all that, range becomes an issue as I mentioned, not to mention encroaching on the territory of logistics anyways. With Neuts, frankly they're pretty balanced as they are. I personally love cap warfare and use neuts a fair amount, and with Energy Emission Systems 5 (rank 2 skill, not bad to suffer through), you can nuke enemy cap at an almost 2:1 ratio (costs you 382.5 to nuke 600) so I know that your suggestion would launch that to an almost 3:1 ratio, which imo is way too much. NOS are in a delicate state as things stand, and the amarr recons aside, are arguably balanced. I don't mind a balanced suggestion to replace them, but there's a reason why few people decide to fit them anymore. Sorry, but +10% energy xfer is just not a viable option for any BS, particularly when you factor in the amplification of things like Halo implants. Again I feel with your suggestion you're aiming to reclaim the days of the overpowered amarr recons in BS format, particularly when there's simply better solutions that are much easier to implement that benefit everyone. Like fix lazors. =) Quote: ANY kind of dev response on this would be greatly appreciated I'm sure. Honestly, at 26+ pages, this isn't going to go away any time soon. Some kind of a reaction would be awesome. Seriously! pro or con the amarr argument on any level (lasers, fittings, cap usage, crappy bonus, recons, etc) it would be at the very least interesting to hear what the devs have to say on these long outstanding issues.
Valadeya uthanaras Killjoy.	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:25:00 - [775] Edited by: Valadeya uthanaras on 12/12/2007 22:35:44 27 pages Tons of good argument, and a complete stats analysis that point the problem No replies from CCP Guess They are just bind or something, cause else would sadden me edit: to CCP, we are not agaisnt or were not agaisnt you about this one but , what mainly sadden us is to see you replies to every troll and whatever thread yet, but ,never give answers to 16% of you players who feel that the more the game goes on, the more harder it is to play the race they choose to start with This thread give definate stats and proof of how broken the race is at the moment you mention omphh for us from a year AGO we are just really getting impatient, cause all that was done in a year is nerfing us more and buffing other races
Oreonea	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:31:00 - [776] They want to do something (CCP) but they don't know what yet, it's obvious Amarr needs some kind of boost. Be nice if you throw us Amarr a tiny something for x-mas though ^^ Even if it's something that won't make us on par with everyone, at least something to tide us over until something that works is thought up?
Proto Tron Acerbus Vindictum	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:39:00 - [777] signed (in peep-squeak voice) More power to the Amarr! url=http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/0707/prototron.jpg
Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:43:00 - [778] Originally by: Oreonea They want to do something (CCP) but they don't know what yet, it's obvious Amarr needs some kind of boost. Be nice if you throw us Amarr a tiny something for x-mas though ^^ Even if it's something that won't make us on par with everyone, at least something to tide us over until something that works is thought up? love your optemism but, to all those great sugestions of why dont you put some rails/autocanons/BASTERS - no! . why should we spend month training t2 blasters not bocouse we whant to have some veriety but becouse we have no choice. next thing that will happen is " why dont we train Galantey battleships!? might as well since everything we trained for many month for amar is now usless. in a year or 2 well be able to post pictures of our skill trees to people and they wil be saying "hey look this are the guys who spend 2 years training amar, lol" nop. dont want that to happen an now for some of the best set ups arbitrator. 2 mining lasers 5 mining drones. 3 mining drone rigs. 150% mining yelds! from drones ypull out mine a medium barge with that . although mirmidon or domy can do teh same thing + tanking a 0.0 spawn....still its a cool idea
Dillius Archania Amarr The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2007.12.13 04:20:00 - [779] It is getting a bit old. Since 2005 I've quit and returned to this game 3 times, and there has only been one consistency each time I have tried to get back up on my feet. "Train a different races ships". Every single time. Over 2 years. Man I should have listened... but no, I thought, "A game that's been around this long really can't have that bad of balance problems, otherwise it wouldn't still be alive"
Lord XSiV Amarr Elysium Labs	Posted - 2007.12.13 05:31:00 - [780] Originally by: Anacrit Mc'Sinister Originally by: Oreonea They want to do something (CCP) but they don't know what yet, it's obvious Amarr needs some kind of boost. Be nice if you throw us Amarr a tiny something for x-mas though ^^ Even if it's something that won't make us on par with everyone, at least something to tide us over until something that works is thought up? love your optemism but, to all those great sugestions of why dont you put some rails/autocanons/BASTERS - no! . why should we spend month training t2 blasters not bocouse we whant to have some veriety but becouse we have no choice. next thing that will happen is " why dont we train Galantey battleships!? might as well since everything we trained for many month for amar is now usless. in a year or 2 well be able to post pictures of our skill trees to people and they wil be saying "hey look this are the guys who spend 2 years training amar, lol" nop. dont want that to happen an now for some of the best set ups arbitrator. 2 mining lasers 5 mining drones. 3 mining drone rigs. 150% mining yelds! from drones ypull out mine a medium barge with that . although mirmidon or domy can do teh same thing + tanking a 0.0 spawn....still its a cool idea It is hard to determine which race to train during these times.....Gallente just got nerfed, minnie is possibly next, caldari is always a safe bet....

Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.13 05:56:00 - [781] Originally by: Lord XSiV It is hard to determine which race to train during these times.....Gallente just got nerfed, minnie is possibly next, caldari is always a safe bet.... Wasnt hard for me to choose what to train ... Am currently training amarr cause nothin else can do what the abaddon does.
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:01:00 - [782] Originally by: Aranbaal Originally by: Lord XSiV It is hard to determine which race to train during these times.....Gallente just got nerfed, minnie is possibly next, caldari is always a safe bet.... Wasnt hard for me to choose what to train ... Am currently training amarr cause nothin else can do what the abaddon does. Quoted for truth. Nothing in this game caps out as fast as an abaddon Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up*
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:38:00 - [783] Originally by: insidion Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Give the Apocalypse a role change. A possible solution would be (as I have mentioned previously) 10% to Energy Weapon Damage and 10% to Energy Transfer Amount per level of Amarr Battleship. Drop to 6 turret slots, and change one lowslot to a midslot. Increase the amount of capacitor that the ship has, decrease the capacitor recharge (in order to balance the cap use of guns), and increase powergrid by 2000 and CPU by 50. This would make the ship a more versatile EW platform. It gives the damage of 9 guns at BS 5 (compared to the AbaddonÆs 10 and the GeddonÆs 9.3). Adjust the speed and agility so it isnÆt such a brick, and you have yourself an effective ship again. Amarr need serious attention, and theyÆre not getting it. Do something soon! This is your typical 'amarr solution', and no offence but this is the zaniest and most nonsensical suggestion to redesign the apoc I've ever seen. I keep trying to avoid posting in this thread, but you've GOT to be kidding at this point. It's such an insane suggestion, I don't even know where to begin! Speccing the apoc to do logistics (+10% energy xfer amount) is completely pointless. Fly a logistics ship like .... oh I dunno....the AMARR one?! Large Energy Transer Array I is only usable within 7.5km, t2 is just under 10km. So now we get to hear even more about how your range is useless and you need MWD's on everything for every single situation. Then we'll get to hear about how MWD's are unfair because you can't transfer enough cap. Then you'll whine that the range isn't the same as your lasers and needs to be boosted. Drop down to 6 turrets? wtf for? Relatively speaking it should be at least 7, and imo I see no reason to not leave it at 8. Thought you were for buffing amarr. =P Low to a mid (or two) is just another frolic through 'Homogenization Land', but you whiners are so friggin' good at both whining and completely unimaginative setups that we may as well just do this just to shut you the hell up. 2k PG?! Holy hell! once again....FIX LASER FITTINGS. FFS, I've typed that out a million times now. There is no sane justification for an ~8% increase in PG. +50 CPU?! Deja vu! FIX LAS...you know what, forget it. Yet another unjustified monster increase 'request' . How about we just buff all ships on all races by that much? You can use it effectively as a cap ewar/utility vehicle now...in fact, it does it incredibly well. It's pathetically easy, insanely cheap and absurdly noob friendly to build a gatecrasher specialized in cap ewar that can have ~150k effective HP. The one I fly right now costs me <100m with t2 on it, has 144k effective HP (since you only live by EFT info), can be vastly augmented by cheap and very easily come by rigs (I make my own, but 30m in rigs tops), and has proven so combat effective (especially in gang) that I've NEVER lost one. For my 'noob special' the highest requirement is hull upgrades 3 (prefer 5) and amarr bs 2. A complete noob could be flying this very ship inside of a week and be completely devastating. Let the other ships fit their ewar, their MWD, their cap boosters. It only serves to help this type of build which usually incapacitates (pun of the year award, tyvm) 1 BS per cycle, can handle up to 8 targets (yay advanced targetting skills), and can keep 4 BS perma drained even if THEY have cap boosters. And that's only ONE useful setup. Just because you can't fit an apoc doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the ship. Well you just seem someoen that never tried tyo fit an apoc into something usefull. It does have HORRIFIC CPU issues and really need at least 20-30 cpu More. My personal change option on apoc would be: remove the cap ammount bonus (its a no bonus, hyperion have almost same cap as an APOC). Give it a tiny bit more cap to compensate (5%) Change the bonus into a 5% rof per level and drop to 6 Turrets. Would be the ammar equivalent to the tempest. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Vrabac Amarr BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:42:00 - [784] The battleships are least of amarr's worries. Actualy battleships are atm only competitive amarr ships, excluding Apoc. Apoc is simply useless except as a big neutralizing or logistic platform, and this can, let's be honest, done with any other ship. The fact that with apoc sacrificing all or almost all of it's damage for something else is worthwile just shows its inferiority. Howerer Geddon and Abaddon are imo fine. None of them are solo ships sadly, and they will lose to a dominix or hyperion in such fight. But in a gang that has more than few members the fact they deal still pretty high dps at long range (yes range) and that they do it INSTANTLY (no time wasted for drones or torps to reach target or to mwd into optimal) makes them deadly gang damage dealers. Also plated setups are only thing that works in such fights. No dual rep will keep you alive when primaried. You will get vapourized before your reps run 2nd or 3rd cycle, no matter your 75-80% resists. Plates will keep you alive longer, allow others in your gang to lock you, remote repair you (and gang can have way more remote reppers than you have lows) and slow down your death as much as possible or even prevent it while your damage and that of your gang, done over much more comfortable range than say gallente, done instantly, and still high enough will make your target die faster. I was present in cases where gangs of solopwnmobile dominixes were literally wiped out of existance. Their drones only reached first primary when they already started taking losses. I'm not talking about huge fleet fights here, never been there. I'm talking about say 10 man gang, give or take. As for other t1 ships, imo only harbinger is worthwile, and actually very good at what id does. Again, dont waste your lows on reps and hardeners. Fit 3 heatsinks, than think about the rest of the slots and rigs for tanking. And yes, I actually do leave docking range or gate with it. Plated harbinger is a devastating opponent, luckily so far I haven't been on recieving end. Fighting a dual repping BC (other than pre nerf myrm) always brought a smile on my face. "Oh look he's trying to tank... oh... lol" Altough I admit here it's more about the fitting than the ship, as I said earlier gank hurricane would trash it in 1 vs 1 because of damage types. Other than that, every other ship is rubbish in one way or another. That other bc... what's the name? Chikency? Birdacy... sorry dont remeber. Arbitrator was awesome and surprisingly fun ship to fly, now it's pretty much dead. I thought of something after nos nerf, and just as I got used to it they kill tracking disruptors. Pilgrim is a cool looking cloaking tanked cap killing device. Useful sometimes in a very small or solo fight, useless in a gang as EW support ship it was supposed to be. Curse is same thing. "Dont worry guys, im tracking disrupting one of them using all my 3 TDs with different scripts in order to have any effect whatsoever so now that one guy does only 60% of his nominal dps and the rest are unaffected, you'll be alright! Oh, damn I tracking disrutped a drone boat..." Omen is a frigate. Maller is funny, and ugly in addition. Hacs are crap. Ok havent tried Sacrilege, looks like it could actually be useful as hacs go. But zealot... just lol. Command ships... ok Absolution looks really good. Still havent tried it out, looking forward to it. But it looks like a t2 harbinger so no surprise there. Damnation might also be ok as gang mod assist carrying tanked platform that stands there and looks cool. So I guess thats ok. Frigs... who cares about frigs? Punisher is good! Oh my that makes me so damn happy! Beh cant think of anything else atm. Sorry for mammoth rant.
Anglo Minmatar Astral Mexicans	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:47:00 - [785] PFFF the amarr is the head race.. it is the slave master... and atm amarrs are being enslaved----- wtf is up with that... maybe consider this... the amarr race is poor atm because the emperor is dead. the new emperor will bring back something good. something race specific... something wich will make the amarr race slave master again... ccp just dont know how to fix the problem. the idea that all races should be equal strong is bull.. no each race should be good in its specifc area... amarr is NOT good at killing BUT its amazing to keep a tank going... so maybe use that a litlle more.. its not a cap race atm or lacer race.. its a plating race used as bate... and ALL in fleet batlles know that u shouldent primary the amarr boats... its always EW boats first etc.... i think ALOT miss the old firepower gankageddon had... and if u ask me i think ccp could save the amarr race with the ability to add one heatsink extra or something PR amarr specific skill.. that would save a lot. and for other races it would be difrent items.. but lets see maybe this is whats planned for when the amarr emperor comes in.. a new amarr race specific skill.... GG seruiously cap isent that much the problem, it is ofc, but damage output is crap compaired to former days. and dps is more vital than u having cap 1 min more.. if u ask me...
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:54:00 - [786] Edited by: Wizzkidy on 13/12/2007 11:54:54 Amarr have had a lot of nerfs over the past couple of years. The big one being the heat sink nerf. This really did hurt amarr, I mean they had problems before that. People used the gank geddon for melting targets and I personally beleave that this is how lasers should of stayed. As soon as the heat sink nerf came in most of the amarr line up of ships just because obsolete! The Zealot for example, use to be feared due to its high ROF and melting power - now what? its hardly used and people just laugh at you when you fly one due to it being able to be killed in any situation. The geddon, still a good BS at this time but lost its general "feel" and role once heatsinks where nerfed to high heaven. IMO lasers should still be able to fit the heatsinks to a point to provide high ROF and slightly higher DMG, this is what made other races fear amarr and these where the good days. EDIT - and i mean come on! what else did amarr have at the time apart from HS stacking?
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:57:00 - [787] Originally by: Wizzkidy The Zealot for example, use to be feared due to its high ROF and melting power - now what? its hardly used and people just laugh at you when you fly one due to it being able to be killed in any situation. The Zealot is another good example of a broken ship... I use two Heat Sinks on my setup, and it come fairly high on killmails (rarely top). It's still generally outdamaged by the Muninn, Cerberus, Eagle, Ishtar and Deimos (Vaga is iffy as it generally uses Barrage out at 20km). I'm comparing tanked ships with the Zealot here though, mind... A fully tanked Deimos, or a nano Ishtar will still outdamage the Zealot, and the shield tanking Eagle and Cerberus have their spare lows for damage mods. After this, the Zealot can hardly tank at all, and it's an upsetting compramise. Mediocre damage for a mediocre tank. Considering how hard the Zealot is to fit as well, it goes without using it's spare highslot for a utility module most of the time. Very upsetting... Latest Video, Click Here!
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:45:00 - [788] Checking in to see if...oh yes, Amarr still broken and no "oomph" in sight. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:04:00 - [789] Valadeya uthanaras: I read your thread that got locked in General discussion here. If you want to repost in this thread, I'll link to it in the first page for you. There are some good ideas here, and I like the idea of giving Amarr greater use of NOS and Neuts as a secondary weapon a lot (hence my Apoc suggestion). Cheers Latest Video, Click Here!
Valadeya uthanaras Killjoy.	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:06:00 - [790] Edited by: Valadeya uthanaras on 13/12/2007 15:07:35 just linking to a other post I made about an idea tho fix them, before a tons of caldari and gallente troll appeared IDEA Sad thing in it is, its been locked out for no apparent reason, and knowing CCP never look at the ship and module forum, an other good idea down the sink lets hope they are reading this one, cause its sad to see the general lack of comment about the issue, even with a sonn to be 30 pages + thread¿ edit , posted just after Felysta Sandorn mentiioned it, yup if possible link it, imo its a good idea

Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:18:00 - [791] Edited by: Felysta Sandorn on 13/12/2007 15:20:36 Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras edit , posted just after Felysta Sandorn mentiioned it, yup if possible link it, imo its a good idea, oh and btw, do you like my idea of nos/laser combinaison, like gallente have drone+guns all the time? Yes, I do... Like I suggested with the Apoc, drop down to 6 guns, give a bigger damage bonus to bring it in line with other Battleships, then give it a new energy vampire bonus and use the two spare highs for NOS or Neuts... The problem is that fitting is so tight on most Amarr ships, that they would need a major makeover for something like this to be implemented... CPU in particular is very lacking on all Amarr ships, to the point where they're not competitive with other races (see my Hurricane versus Harbinger argument). I'll link your post on the front page of this thread in a sec... EDIT: Linked on the first page now... Running out of space in that last post on the first page! Valorem, if you're reading this, is there any way you can insert another post by me on the first page to reserve another slot? Latest Video, Click Here!
Angry Sheep Amarr Aur0ra	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:21:00 - [792] /Signed Just returned to the game after a long absence disappointed It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
Leto Nyx Neogen Industries Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:38:00 - [793] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Originally by: Leto Nyx Well, looking at your Armageddon/Domi damage comparison, you seem to have ignored the fact that the Domi simply can't fit all those guns. You'd have to add an RCU to fit it, and you'd need three if you want a LAR II on there as well, which fills all your lows. The Armageddon can fit all those guns and a LAR II easily, and still has powergrid to spare, along with four empty lowslots. I addressed this issue a while back, dropping the Domi to Ions and not needing any fitting mods. The Domi still beat other ships in DPS with lesser guns, and had the spare grid for a plate tank. Ah, didn't spot that. 27 pages is a fair bit of reading. In response, I can only say... ...isn't it great to be Gallente! ----- Some people are like Slinkies - not really good for anything but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs
Armoured C Gallente Globaltech Industries Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:42:00 - [794] but more specilised ship for amarr have i believe a distinct advantage for all active tankers for example look at the force rekon ship (or was it combat recon) they have a extra weapon which is the energy vamp and neuts, if you have the right combo you will crusify anyones cap for active tankers and kill them hasly quicker if that of a non active tank....has this been takin into account for a added weapon gooing agains the other races ?
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:05:00 - [795] Originally by: Armoured C but more specilised ship for amarr have i believe a distinct advantage for all active tankers for example look at the force rekon ship (or was it combat recon) they have a extra weapon which is the energy vamp and neuts, if you have the right combo you will crusify anyones cap for active tankers and kill them hasly quicker if that of a non active tank....has this been takin into account for a added weapon gooing agains the other races ? The recons, the EAS, and the faction ships are the only ones that benefit from this as a secondary weapons system... In order to balance this issue, the majority of ships should be given a NOS bonus and have the spare slots to fit them. Drop a gun or two, raise the damage bonus (ie keeping the overall damage the same for each ship, and allow for the fitting of NOS/Neuts... This will also help with the cap use of lasers in general, using less guns = less cap. Latest Video, Click Here!
Enoch Bloodfury	Posted - 2007.12.13 19:44:00 - [796] Signed! I do agree with you on a lot of your points, Amarr are vastly underpowered, and the cap is probably the one thing that ****es me off the most. I do have to say I would like to see your analysis on the optimal, and tracking. Im pretty sure that it would have a if not strong then atleast and influential outlook on to this whole topic. Thank you very much for taking the time to read into this. hopefully CCP will look into this.
Stepford Wife	Posted - 2007.12.13 20:14:00 - [797] Felista, can you figure out the percentage by which the damage of lasers should go up to make Amarr #2 or #1 in average on damage? Amarr is broken. I see only one solution. Increased damage for lasers in general. Cap tweaks and NOS/Neut boosts are all non-starters.
MOTOK0	Posted - 2007.12.13 20:28:00 - [798] The dev's probably haven't replied to this thread because it is full of strawman arguments and bandwagon bull***. Not to say that some* amarr ships don't have problems but sweeping changes to the whole amarr line of laser boats would just cause even greater game balance issues. Oh, silly me, this isn't about game balance is it? It's about amarr not having enough overpowered pwnmobiles to keep the scrubs happy
Khemical Gallente Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2007.12.13 21:00:00 - [799] /signed
xxOutlawxx	Posted - 2007.12.13 21:32:00 - [800] Free the Amarr people from the Oppressers called CCP!

Hickock Caldari Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.12.13 22:02:00 - [801] /signed When i was playing an amarr character, everytime i would snipe, my cap would run out within 1-2mins When killing a bs+ i would run out of cap, making me useless. This is very very bad( I remember killing freightor in low sec when i was in OctoberSnow Corp that took f o r e v e r when it was only 3 people.) -------------- Visit http://extremepredators.com/ for more information.
Dillius Archania Amarr The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2007.12.13 22:03:00 - [802] Originally by: MOTOK0 Not to say that *most* amarr ships don't have problems but sweeping changes to the whole amarr line of laser boats would just cause even greater game balance issues. Fixed it for you. There are more that are considered useless than useful if you include ships that are typically used only when fitting non-lasers on a ship with laser cap reduction bonus.
Darkcommander Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.13 22:12:00 - [803] signed
Major Bahitairv	Posted - 2007.12.13 22:31:00 - [804] Best to train your cap recharge ( Engineering) skills ie energy systems operations lvl 5, Energy Grid upgrades lvl 5, Energy management lvl 5 etc etc!
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.13 23:01:00 - [805] Originally by: MOTOK0 The dev's probably haven't replied to this thread because it is full of strawman arguments and bandwagon bull**. just like as your arguments? Originally by:** MOTOK0 Not to say that some amarr ships don't have problems but sweeping changes to the whole amarr line of laser boats would just cause even greater game balance issues. Of course. And 16% of amarrs and 14% of amarrian ships ingame is perfect ballance? Where have "protector of ballance" been when devs boosted caldary in triniti? Originally by: MOTOK0 Oh, silly me, this isn't about game balance is it?
Valadeya uthanaras Killjoy.	Posted - 2007.12.14 00:02:00 - [806] Sadly, I was not able to make it to the live dev blog due to a RL issue, Anything about the Amarrian problem was said in it? I really need to know
Via Trebona	Posted - 2007.12.14 13:06:00 - [807] Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras Sadly, I was not able to make it to the live dev blog due to a RL issue, Anything about the Amarrian problem was said in it? I really need to know No.
Myst Shadowheart	Posted - 2007.12.14 13:23:00 - [808] Edited by: Myst Shadowheart on 14/12/2007 13:24:26 Originally by: Via Trebona Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras Sadly, I was not able to make it to the live dev blog due to a RL issue, Anything about the Amarrian problem was said in it? I really need to know No. I was on the live dev blog from the beginning. One of the first issues they talked about was the Amarr problem. They aknowledged the forum discussion and sad that they are working on it and the results will be seen in the so called "Boost Patch" that they discussed about. There are of course no details yet..they are working on possible solutions (some will certanly be ship based) and sad there will be more details regarding the patch after new year. Anyway sone of the devs (Hammer i think)sad he will blog about the patch soonish.
Misina Arlath Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.14 13:52:00 - [809] /signed !!! Originally by: Vitrael Way to not take optimal, falloff, or tracking into account in your DPS analysis. What the... The amarr turrets, as far as tracking speeds, optimal and falloff go, are all average, at best. You can do the comparison on that super easy by just comparing the "stock" turrets for each race and see what the tracking speeds and ranges are. Pulse lasers are in fact slowest compared to blasters and autocanons. Yes they have the longest range, but honestly, when you are using pulse/blasters/autocannons, you don't care about long range, you care about close orbit and fast tracking. The OP has made an excellent post that clearly shows what Amarr struggle with. Amarr being called the "Cap race" has more to do about Amarr players being forced to train Cap Skills than any bonus to their ships Cap. "Oh oh, but Amarr ships get bonus reduction in cap usage on lasers" This only enhances the OP's point. How so? While the other race ships get two ship bonuses, to either fall off range, tracking speed, EW weaponry boosts, extra drones, extra drone damage, resists and pure "race specific" turret/launcher damage/improvement... Amarr get this... 1 ship bonus that improves the ship or weapons. 1 bandaid that amounts to "You lose one ship bonus in order to make you able to use your racial weapons (lasers)" In my opinion, the cap usage on energy weapons should be reduced across the board, and penalized/increased IF they are mounted on a non-amarr ship. That way Amarr ships could lose the "10% less cap usage for energy turrets" crap and actually get a ship bonus that isn't just a poor mans way of "fixing" things. I'll not go through all the points the OP made all over again, as she made some really good, detailed and thought-through comparisons, other than to say this.... On top of the cap problems, slow tracking speeds, limited damage types and so forth already covered... ... Amarr even gets one frigate less than the other races !!! While the other 3 races get a ship with a bonus to exploration/probing (+5% bonus to astrometrics), Amarr does not. Talk about shafting a race all the way. Still, I love my Amarr, as much for the lovely ships and the lovely stations, as for the pewpews (despite their obvious flaws) and the, in my experience, great playerbase amarr players tend to be. (dread even thinking of my rookie days in SWA) -------------------------------------------------- "Every complex problem has a solution which is easy, neat and wrong!"
Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2007.12.14 14:37:00 - [810] Quote: I was on the live dev blog from the beginning. One of the first issues they talked about was the Amarr problem. They aknowledged the forum discussion and sad that they are working on it and the results will be seen in the so called "Boost Patch" that they discussed about. There are of course no details yet..they are working on possible solutions (some will certanly be ship based) and sad there will be more details regarding the patch after new year. Anyway sone of the devs (Hammer i think)sad he will blog about the patch soonish. well, thats good enough for me, still, i would like to see an actuall devs eply in this thread saying just that. thy can damn well close this thread after that

The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.14 15:12:00 - [811] First off, the comparence is not realy based on playable Fits especialy for the Neutron Domi(Powergridwise, Electron Domis are even extreme hard to fit and have to make tradeoffs). The Issue in Amarr Ships is not that simple like many people often say. Biggest Problem on my Opinion that a lot of Ships failing a bit her role or beeing subpar to other Race Ships for this duty. People that state Amarr ships are ok often have very maxed out Skills and using T2 Ships or BS/Caps(Harbinger and Puisher got a strong point to). People that disagree mostly using T1 Ships without high Skills. Atm Amarr is the most Skill intensive Race(Missles, Drones, Gunnery, Cap Skills(you need them maxed because they have a very huge Impact for the Performance), Speed(maintain Range on smaller Ships), Spaceship Command(Cap Reduction on Lasers has to be 4/5 to be effective in PVP) and Armortanking(Shilds for the new Sansha Ships). The strong Point of Amarr is the huge Range(Optimal) with a deacend Damage Output(aslong as the Ship got a Damage Bonus) and the good Tracking considering the Range. This is the point where Amarr Ships can outclass other Ships in Gangs and have her advantage. I think most of the people will agree here with me. You can¦t simply point one one thing at Amarr Ships and say this is why Amarr Suck. It is more like the changes happend to the gameplay and the other Races put Amarr a bit behind in the last 2 years. The Cap Bonus is a good example, it should make Amarr able of using the best Turret Weapon System in EvE(huge Range, inbuild Damage Bonus, awsome Tracking). As the Laser was the superior Weapon People started to fit it on other Ships to get a advantage. So the Lasers got higher Fitting Requirements and more Cap use. So it was not that good any more to use them on non Amarr Ships. Over Time Lasers and the other Weapons got changed a lot. At the point now, nobody would fit Lasers on a non Amarr Ship and even on Amarr Ships Projektil Weapons do better in some cases by currend game mechanics and common PVP tactics and fittings. The inbuild Damage advantages on Lasers is mostly nullified because of heavy EM Resistances on current Omni Tanking Setups. So Fitting Projektiel on a Ship without a Damage Bonus don¦t change Damage after Resistances mutch. Aswell as the Range advantage fades into a huge loose of Damage on longer Ranges with Laser because of the massive drop of Termal Damage Type on Crystals(T1) with longer Range. T2 Crystals are fixing this quit a bit. Unfortunaly this comes at the price that loosing your Ship gets more expensive(since you carrieng most time a mutch higher Amount of Amno than you realy need -> 1000 Shots/Crystal). Even if T2 and Faction Cystals would never fade out it would not make mutch difference in PVP. Looking into Capacitor Lasers using quit a bit of Cap. With High Skills the Cap will substain(not on every Ship) the Lasers but putting Tanking/MWD/Nos/Neut in effect it becomes a disadvantage. Futuremore the high Fitting requirements of Lasers force to Singelrep or Plated Solutions. Fittings without Cap Boosters are possibel on some Ships but can¦t substain long and have to Fit Cap Mods to substain the Lasers a resenable amount of time. Ships with a Damage Bonus do better here because they can manage to do the Damage in the given time Frame before they Cap Out or get blown up. Ships without the Damage Bonus offten lack this ability and called weak for this. So the Problem is mutch mure in the Slot Layout and Ship Bonus area combined with Lasers than just on Lasers alone. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.14 17:58:00 - [812] Looking now a bit into Amarr Ships: Omen The Omen is a very good light "Gunboad". It has a ROF Bonus and a very deacend Range. Unfortunaly it is very Powergrid and CPU limited(most Tier 2 Cruisers are). Compared with the other Tier 2 Combat Cruisers(Vexor, Carcal, Stabber) it it lacks not obvius in Stats, more than it lacks in a special Role driven by game play. Carcal is the closest one in Role(in PVP, besides it has a very strong PVE Role). Caracal can do most things a Omen can in a Gang when it commes to firing on a deacend Range with the disadvantage of the time till the Missles reaches the Target. Both are limited in Closerange Combat by her Tank while the Omen increases in Damage, the Carcal has no Tracking issue. On the other Hand the Carcal outclasses the Omen when it comes to PVE preaty obviously. Vexor is a great solo Ship and on one Level with the Tier 3 Cruisers because of its ability to do the Damage with Drones and very flexible Setups. The Stabber has a deacend Role as very agile Cruiser that can make up his poor Damage with great Tackling Ability and his chance to disengage combat. Afterall compared to the other Tier 2 Cruisers the Omen isn¦t this bad but in his Role it has to compeat with the Tier 3 Cruisers in his role as Gang Support and did not have a special ability like other Tier 2 Cruisers. Maller The Maller has a very deacend Tank, so by role you can say the Maller is the Amarr definition of Tank. As a Trade off the Maller can¦t do mutch Damage. The Ship don¦t have a Damage Bonus and is restricted in the Fitting to smaller Medium Guns by his Powergrid, it has no Dronebay to. Also it is heaviely affected in a Tank Setup by the Cap use of his Lasers. Fitted with Autocannons(very common Fitting) it can substain a very heavy Tank for a Cruiser. Looking on other Tier 3 Cruisers the Rupture and Thorax are all about Offensive Abilitys, making more Damage and the Moa has a special Role with her Sniping ability(but also not that common in PVP). So in the End, the Tier 2 Cruiser of Amarr has to deal with the Tier 3 Cruisers of other Races in his Damage Ability and the Tier 3 Cruiser has a special Ability but can¦t bring the Damage Ability that make Rupture and Thorax good PVP Ships. So how to fix them? Well giving the Omen more Powergrid would help but it will bring the Omen out of line with the other Tier 2 Cruisers. The Maller well, more Powergrid for bigger Weapons and more maximal Capacitor to effective Tank and keep firing would be the choice. On the other Hand it would make AK Fittings even stronger in Tank. It may sound strange but there is a solution without bringing a Ship out of Line with others, by simply rematch Tier and purpose of the Ships: Omen and Maller should be the other way around. With the Omen as as a Tier 3 Cruiser with 5 Turrets and a exta Low for adding Gank or Tank and the Maller as realy defensive Ship with one less Low and one less Highslot. It would make more sence having a Tier 2 Cruiser with a special Ability like the other Races and a Tier 3 for dealing Damage(ok Moa is another Story). Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:57:00 - [813] Prophecy Well Prophecy is not a bad BC compared to the other Tier 1 BCs. It has a very deacend Tank but is not that good in the Damage department mostly like the Ferox. Compared with the Brutix(as the other Tier 1 Armortank) it has the Problem that the it can Outtank and Outgank the Prophecy in close range and can fit a MWD and Cap Booster. Fitting a Cap Booster with a full rack of Heavy Puls is possible but leaves only 2 Med Slots left. Fitting a MWD makes fitting a Cap Booster impossible without Fitting Mods and will, together with the Cap use of Lasers limit the tanking Ability. Dropping to smaller Puls Lasers even more extend the Damage Difference but makes it possible to Outtank the Brutix with a Dual Armor Repper Setup. Every boost in Capacitor and Tank would make the Ship even more a AK Platform. The Ship is truely outclassed by the Harbinger, but to be fair every Tier 1 BC is by his Tier 2 Counterpart. Any sugestions are wellcome. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.14 20:44:00 - [814] Edited by: The Djego on 14/12/2007 20:48:40 Lasers! Fix Lasers is a very sensible Area. Problem on my Opinion the Laser has several Advantages and and put in a very huge Disandvantage to balance it up. The Ships on the other Hand have negate this disavantage(Cap Use) without making them overpowert when using another kind of Weapon. So changing Laser is more like strip Advantages from the Weapon and give them to the Ship. First of nerfing Lasers(sounds hard I know): - reduce 25% of her Optimal Range - reduce 10% Tracking of Puls & Beams Now Boosting them again in another fashion: - reduce Cap use of Puls Lasers & Beam Lasers by 10% - add 10% Base Damage Modifier to Puls Lasers - switch 1 Point(small) 2 Points(medium) and 4 Points(Large) of EM Damage to Thermal -> DPS Stays the same but about 5% boost in Damage against Omni Tanks and PVE - Reduce Fittingrequirement of Beams by 5% of the needed Powergrid Now take a look into Ships: Tanking Line: Punisher, Maller, Prohecy, Gedon Support Line: Executioner, Omen, Harbinger, Apoc - make the Cap reduction a Special Ability fixed at 50% (improves the Players without maxed Skills) - Add a Tracking Bonus of 7.5% per Skill Level to tanking Ships -> Short Range combat ability - adding 10% max Cap and 10% max Armor to the Tanking Line -> heavy Short Range Tanking - adding 5% Optimal to the Support Line -> Same Optimal as before with Ship Skill at 5 - Increase the Cap on the Apoc for 10% to be Sniper that can substain itself longer or with less Cap Mods At the End, Tanking Line Ships can least longer and can Track better at expense of Range also they do a fair amout more Damage in close Combat(using Puls). Support Ships(like they used today in Gangs) have less Cap Problems with Lasers doing a bit more Damage against Omnitanks and having less tracking as tradeoff. Gedon is a very good Ship today, it will loose 25% of his Range in expense of a better Tank, more Damage and a better Tracking. I am not realy shure about the Gedon(HP Buff) in the End, but it will seperate the Ship in his Role from yust beeing better than the Apoc to beeing better than the Apoc at close Range. Abbadon should not have the Special Ability of the Cap Reduction because this Ship is fairly balanced. This is a bit more like simpy cry boost Amarr but my Opinion how to give a Boost to use Lasers without directly boosting AK use or making Lasers overpowert. Sorry again for this huge Text Walls and heavy Idees of giving Amarr another Aditude instead of yust boosting them. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Grim86StonE Amarr Huff Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.14 21:04:00 - [815] CCP should look into ways to make the races more diverse rather then bringing everything on the same level. Balance should not be achieved by everyone having the same skills, ships with same bonuses (marauders, heavy interdictors). It is not fun to have everyone have ships that do exactly the same thing but look different. Every race should have a bonus that makes flying their race specific ships and using their race specific modules better. For example...Amarr should have a cap or laser race bonus when flying their own ships and using lasers on any other ship. This would make the game much more diverse....from a certain point of view. I realise that this would be very unfair for players that have specialised in flying another race's ships so pls don't shoot me. Anyway...if Amarr don't get at least a huge cap bonus and the cap reduction bonuses replaced with something useful, we will be the most underpowered race in the game. Everyone should take note that this is very easy to change, but for some reason CCP have not changed anything so far to fix the Amarr issue. This should imply that they don't simply want to change things and keep on making life difficult for Amarr players.
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.12.14 21:10:00 - [816] Edited by: Moghydin on 14/12/2007 21:10:47 Originally by: Depp Knight I am a caldari born pilot speced to fly Amarr. What a bad decision I made. Like on paper amarr ships look great, till you fly them. Exactly my case. I've chosen to specialize in Amarr, when my fellow Caldari pilots were flying ultimate NPC Ravens and earned 100 mills/day with lvl 4s. They said I was stupid. It took me too long to understand they were right. Each time when I wanted to retrain, I thought that if I retrain, I'll waste time spent on Amarr, so may be it won't be that bad if I bring another skill to lvl 5. In the end I'm still mostlu specialize in Amarr and still regret I didn't stay with Caldari long time ago. Press alt+F4 to reduce lag
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.14 22:19:00 - [817] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: insidion . And that's only ONE useful setup. Just because you can't fit an apoc doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the ship. Well you just seem someoen that never tried tyo fit an apoc into something usefull. It does have HORRIFIC CPU issues and really need at least 20-30 cpu More. My personal change option on apoc would be: remove the cap ammount bonus (its a no bonus, hyperion have almost same cap as an APOC). Give it a tiny bit more cap to compensate (5%) Change the bonus into a 5% rof per level and drop to 6 Turrets. Would be the ammar equivalent to the tempest. With all due respect, I'd accuse you of the same thing. Your suggestion just turns the apoc into a machine with very little more DPS than it has now (6 turrets+25% ROF at L5 vs the 8 that it can field now by default), caps out just as fast and still has the ridiculously insulting bonus of laser cap usage. My proposal allows EVERY ship to fit lasers appropriately AND allows the apoc to also focus on cap warfare. One of the biggest problems is that a lot of people want these ships buffed into soloable machines. Now really you're right to want this but you have to understand why CCP isn't going to give it to you. Ultimately CCP is steering towards larger ships only being usable in gang and fleet situations, and it's here that amarr ships, particularly the apoc, really start to shine. The complaints about fittings are because lasers need fixing(how many times do I have to say it, fix laser fittings, fix laser cap usage, fix laser bonus on amarr ships, sheesh) and people are trying to set up every ship the exact same way. Small minded people ALWAYS want the exact following: all dps in highs, cap booster and MWD in the mids, armor/speed tank and weapon upgrades in the lows. They don't care what ship they are flying, what race, the size of the gang they are in, their role in the gang, the type of mission they are on, etc. They will ALWAYS try to fit the exact same way regardless of circumstance, and this is not a good thing. The 'fix lasers' approach addresses all ship fitting concerns without unbalancing anything else, and it begins to open new avenues for ship builds for amarr. I respect that people have a variety of ideas as to what they want to see for <ship name> redesigned into <request goes here> but you have to understand that these are minutia points that need to be addressed after the larger issues have been stabilized. You also need to understand that a balance MUST be maintained, so try to be fair with what you ask for. Also try to keep in mind that while you want to see <certain layout here>, there is always more than one way to fit a ship, and you're going to have to keep that in mind for your proposal.
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.14 22:34:00 - [818] Edited by: insidion on 14/12/2007 22:35:16 edit: my god the only thing in more need of fixing than the amarr issues are these CRAPPY FORUMS! friggin' thing ate my post. AGAIN! =) Originally by: Felysta Sandorn The recons, the EAS, and the faction ships are the only ones that benefit from this as a secondary weapons system... In order to balance this issue, the majority of ships should be given a NOS bonus and have the spare slots to fit them. Drop a gun or two, raise the damage bonus (ie keeping the overall damage the same for each ship, and allow for the fitting of NOS/Neuts... This will also help with the cap use of lasers in general, using less guns = less cap. Personally I like this general idea, but it's a dangerous proposal. It could bring back the days of mad NOS use and basically would give the entire amarr race a very distinct role of cap warfare that you know people would be within their right to complain about. People will also rightly point out that it pretty much gives the entire race the benefits of it's recon ships. Majority of those complaining that 'amarr ships suck' also only live by the amount of DPS it can do, so they will find this suggestion unappealing to say the least. A lot of people are also ardently against split weapon systems, so the overall solution would have to offer NOS/Neuts as an option rather than a mandatory setup. Conversely, so many people fit cap boosters and such that it might very well be warranted. It would also give a better home for things like passive shield tanks in PVP. I'd like to see cap warfare become an official part of the game, including some new skills and possibly even modules, but highly doubt CCP is that resourceful. Again, loving the thought of pushing amarr ships in general towards fixed lasers and nos/neut setups, but would require pretty careful tinkering to get it right. Seems like a match made in heaven....similar range, helps with the whole laser cap usage issue, etc. Most amarr ships also have the fallback of fitting some type of missile system, so if people wanted to do more damage instead of nos/neut, they could perhaps be pacified with that concept.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.14 22:40:00 - [819] I personly think that boosting amarr ships like triniti sanshas (exept shiels tanking) - 1\2 turret slots and 100% laser damage role bonus - is realy nice idea: same dps, no ac\arty\rails fits, 1\2 capusage(so its possible to replace laser cap usage bonuses), better fittings, some free high slots for nosfs, and more impotantly - lasers used only for amarr ships.
Meridius Dex Amarr Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.14 22:47:00 - [820] There have been a lot of ideas discussed here and a lot of debate. From where I sit, it seems we can distill 90% of what people are saying down to two or three things, upon which most everyone can agree: 1.) Base Resistances - Base EM resists on Shield/Armor should go from 0%/60% to something more like 15%/45%. EM is still the weakest resistance on shields and the strongest resistance on armor. The ratio is still there, but in one step the Omnitank issue would be addressed. You can keep your EANMs exactly the way they are. 2.) Reduce laser cap use - A lot of numbers have been thrown around and certainly CCP should run them all through their version of Big Blue to get as close as possible to what would be balanced and fair. But it looks like 25-30% is what many feel would be close. It would also open up energy weapons to at least be considered by other races, thus adding to the variety and innovation inherent to EVE gameplay. 3.) Change ship bonuses - After Point 2 is addressed, lose the cap bonuses and replace them with real ship bonuses. Is there anyone left anywhere in EVE that doesn't agree on this one by now? My own bonus assertion: 4.) Nerf MWDs. These modules are the sole reason there IS NO "medium range combat" in EVE. All fights are either at long-range sniper or short-range blaster distances. Scale MWD module attributes according to ship classes and reduce their ubiquity in PvP. MWD has drastically imbalanced EVE. I said it before and I'll say it again: The Devs have mentioned in the past that any time any one module is being used by everyone in a game that it suggests there's a game imbalance. Well, guess what... -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting

Troezar	Posted - 2007.12.14 23:27:00 - [821] Call me mad but I'll soon be switching from Minmatar based training to Amarr. I feel the bad/good old days of Tach Apocs ruling the skies returning Plus it's the one race I've never tried...
Roupeh Natanoj Templars of Space Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.12.14 23:55:00 - [822] Originally by: The Djego The strong Point of Amarr is the huge Range(Optimal) with a deacend Damage Output(aslong as the Ship got a Damage Bonus) and the good Tracking considering the Range. This is the point where Amarr Ships can outclass other Ships in Gangs and have her advantage. I think most of the people will agree here with me. this is a very valid point sure gall do the most dps, u seen there range. while the ammar ships has been pounding the gall ship for and extra 10-15 secs the gall finaly gets within range by then the ammar has alrdy out dps's other ship. u really hav to bring range into it then dps evens out imo.
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.15 00:12:00 - [823] Originally by: Roupeh Natanoj Originally by: The Djego The strong Point of Amarr is the huge Range(Optimal) with a deacend Damage Output(aslong as the Ship got a Damage Bonus) and the good Tracking considering the Range. This is the point where Amarr Ships can outclass other Ships in Gangs and have her advantage. I think most of the people will agree here with me. this is a very valid point sure gall do the most dps, u seen there range. while the ammar ships has been pounding the gall ship for and extra 10-15 secs the gall finaly gets within range by then the ammar has alrdy out dps's other ship. u really hav to bring range into it then dps evens out imo. The problem as a lot of people see it is that it's SO EASY to quickly close in on an Amarr ship that the range advantage is completely useless except in large scale combat. Amarr have no method by which they can dictate the range of combat, which is in my opinion our number one weakness.
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.15 01:03:00 - [824] Edited by: Dillius Archania on 15/12/2007 01:03:19 Originally by: insidion Originally by: Dillius Archania Amarr have no method by which they can dictate the range of combat, which is in my opinion our number one weakness. Use a web, target painters, nos/neuts, speed tank yourself, fly with some of the new ships, minnie recons, various ewar approaches, etc. Plenty of counters or methods to boost your own abilities, either for solo or team play. Encouraging an ultimate final solution of lasers (assuming they're fixed), missiles, nos and neuts would be fantastic as it would allow the versatility that is somewhat lacking with amarr, make them quite deadly and yet keep them completely unique. It would also encourage that 'porcupine effect' over a multitude of setups that would be the antecedent of common close range setups (cap boosters vs neuts, MWD's vs webs etc). Web = Too close range for Large Pulse lasers, EDIT: also often not enough mid slots. Nos/Neuts = Nos doesn't work any more, Neuts cost us cap which we need just to fire our guns MWD = extreme capacitor punishment How the crap is "Minnie Recons" a way for an AMARR ship to dictate range. Not all of us have a friend that just happens to only pilot rapier/huginn Ewar doesn't dictate range.
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.15 02:23:00 - [825] Originally by: Dillius Archania Web = Too close range for Large Pulse lasers, EDIT: also often not enough mid slots. Nos/Neuts = Nos doesn't work any more, Neuts cost us cap which we need just to fire our guns MWD = extreme capacitor punishment How the crap is "Minnie Recons" a way for an AMARR ship to dictate range. Not all of us have a friend that just happens to only pilot rapier/huginn Ewar doesn't dictate range. You're one of those people who somehow believe that you shouldn't have any weaknesses whatsoever. You should be able to do mad DPS all over the place, range should be immaterial, and you should always be in a superior position by default. Web - well if you don't think they're useful, I would in fact somewhat agree with you. This module is one of a few key ones that needs to be redesigned to take into account a variety of factors. However, if you feel in it's current state (which isn't changing anytime soon) is not useful to yourself or _your team mates_, keep on not using them. Nos/Neuts - some of the more interesting ideas float around on improving this for amarr in general, but they're more than useful otherwise, particularly on cap munching ships. Sure, your e-peen will suffer drastically by fitting something other than a DPS turret, and maybe you're not into that, but that doesn't detract from either their usefulness or their effectiveness. Neuts causing you to lose cap is hardly something to complain about, it's their downside. A single t2 heavy neut with energy emission systems 5 nukes cap at almost a 2:1 ratio. Seems pretty useful to me and hardly something to complain about. MWD - extreme cap punishment for anyone who fits one, including your targets. maybe you could take advantage of that by either fitting one yourself (and the classic mindless cap booster to go with it), or you could use nos/neuts as above to exasperate your targets weakness even further. Not much danger to you if they're flying at you at 'ludicrous speed' but have no cap with which to do anything. Minnie recons - again, don't like 'em, don't use 'em, but don't complain about teamwork concepts either. The point illustrates that maybe you should do DPS and let someone else help you contain your targets. Ewar - clearly helps to dictate range. If they're nullified, they're no danger to you. Sure maybe you can't hit them as well (or at all depending on the case), but them not hitting you removes their effectiveness of close range while you can still function at mid or long range. You cannot possibly expect to be effective at mid/long range, have someone use speed to sneak under your range and then whine that they're wailing away on you. Do something about it to protect yourself. Sometimes a strong defense is a a strong defense. =P Accept the fact that you should be powerful, but not omnipotent.
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.15 02:45:00 - [826] Edited by: Dillius Archania on 15/12/2007 02:49:22 Originally by: insidion You're one of those people who somehow believe that you shouldn't have any weaknesses whatsoever. You should be able to do mad DPS all over the place, range should be immaterial, and you should always be in a superior position by default. Web - well if you don't think they're useful, I would in fact somewhat agree with you. This module is one of a few key ones that needs to be redesigned to take into account a variety of factors. However, if you feel in it's current state (which isn't changing anytime soon) is not useful to yourself or _your team mates_, keep on not using them. Nos/Neuts - some of the more interesting ideas float around on improving this for amarr in general, but they're more than useful otherwise, particularly on cap munching ships. Sure, your e-peen will suffer drastically by fitting something other than a DPS turret, and maybe you're not into that, but that doesn't detract from either their usefulness or their effectiveness. Neuts causing you to lose cap is hardly something to complain about, it's their downside. A single t2 heavy neut with energy emission systems 5 nukes cap at almost a 2:1 ratio. Seems pretty useful to me and hardly something to complain about. MWD - extreme cap punishment for anyone who fits one, including your targets. maybe you could take advantage of that by either fitting one yourself (and the classic mindless cap booster to go with it), or you could use nos/neuts as above to exasperate your targets weakness even further. Not much danger to you if they're flying at you at 'ludicrous speed' but have no cap with which to do anything. Minnie recons - again, don't like 'em, don't use 'em, but don't complain about teamwork concepts either. The point illustrates that maybe you should do DPS and let someone else help you contain your targets. Ewar - clearly helps to dictate range. If they're nullified, they're no danger to you. Sure maybe you can't hit them as well (or at all depending on the case), but them not hitting you removes their effectiveness of close range while you can still function at mid or long range. You cannot possibly expect to be effective at mid/long range, have someone use speed to sneak under your range and then whine that they're wailing away on you. Do something about it to protect yourself. Sometimes a strong defense is a a strong defense. =P Accept the fact that you should be powerful, but not omnipotent. Sorry I'm such a horrible, horrible person apparently. What is one of the primary arguments to why Lasers aren't underpowered? Range. What is the single most useless part of Lasers in half of all combat? Range. Wow, freaking WONDERFUL! I can hit you at 25km whereas you can only hit me at 3km... Oh well crap, you just MWD'd from 25km to 3km so fast I only got off 2 rounds of fire. Sounds balanced. Web's definitely help team mates, but ya know what? They don't help YOU if you're the one in web range with an Amarrian ship. And if you have teammates, quite likely there will be someone else with a web anyways, so it's not a concern and would just be a waste of an Amarr ships precious mid slots. Nos/Neut- Nos nerf, and Neuts will just drain your cap even more than your guns. And once again, how does this control range when a ship travels OVER 3 KILOMETERS A SECOND! close from 24km to 0 in 8 seconds, that's enough time for your neuts to cycle how many times? MWD- They aren't paying out the arse in cap to run their guns. Ok, so MWD, Cap Booster, disruptor. Well, there's all your mids used, unless it's one of the blessed new ships such as Abaddon or Harbinger. Minnie Recon- Training for these now, but that's still not the point. Of course having teammates helps, if you have X teammates there's only a 1/X chance the enemy will be in your freaking face. Pretty obvious EDIT: You know what's really to blame? The insanity of nano-builds
Misina Arlath Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.15 11:21:00 - [827] Originally by: The Djego ...snip... You want to cut range on lasers and reduce the cap usage. Fine. You want to reduce the tracking speed at same time? Amarr turrets have among the slowest tracking speeds already... so killing range + track speed = forcing us into closer combat, with worse abilities to hit anything at close combat. As for range on Amarr weapons, true, Amarr has the furthest range with pulse (short range) turrets. But honestly, this game is not about mid-range, which is where Amarr is supposed to excel. In EVE you are either at long ranges 50km+ or you orbit at close rangers 500m-2km. Having guns with slow tracking speed as well as heavy cap usage that reach beyond that close range is pointless. Also, for the OP's comparisons to show the weaknesses in Amarr ships, both in combat endurace (cap endurace) and the combat damage is the most objective comparison anyone has come up with. Yes you can, as the OP also points out, argue that the fittings are hard to get on the ships, and that they might seem unrealistic. But, in order to actually see the differences in the ships, you have to go by everything being maxed out. Otherwise skills, 100's of variations in fittings and so forth will always make the comparison open for arguing and disagreement. WIth the OP's comparison, noone can say "but you can just fit bigger guns on the Amarr ships". And the comparison is solid. It doesn't just point out one weakness, but many of them. If you have a better / more accurate comparison that proves otherwise, please, do present it. Just taking 1 Amarr ship at a time and pointing out how good it is at this or that, does nothing to prove how combat efficient they are in comparison to the other race ships, nor how point out it's flaws in comparison to these. I can sit down and argue several points on how good the Punisher is compared to the other racial frigates. However, as a Puni pilot, I need alot more skills into the Engineering skills in order to run it with proper modules. I've also flown Caldari and Minmatar ships in comparison, and seeing how much more I can focus on pure damage (gunnery) skills in comparison to my Amarr main was frustrating. In short, flying other race ships keeps you one step ahead of Amarr, damage wise for characters of the same age. People say Amarr are good when you have the skills... I suppose that may be true. But that is no less true for other races. Difference is how much time is spent into different skill categories. Also, why do you think so many Amarr players crosstrain to Projectile turrets rather than staying with lasers? Because Projectiles are more fun? Take a moment to think about that, because that is the Amarr problem in a nutshell. -------------------------------------------------- "Every complex problem has a solution which is easy, neat and wrong!"
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.15 14:07:00 - [828] Edited by: The Djego on 15/12/2007 14:15:32 Originally by: Misina Arlath Originally by: The Djego ...snip... You want to cut range on lasers and reduce the cap usage. Fine. You want to reduce the tracking speed at same time? Amarr turrets have among the slowest tracking speeds already... so killing range + track speed = forcing us into closer combat, with worse abilities to hit anything at close combat. As for range on Amarr weapons, true, Amarr has the furthest range with pulse (short range) turrets. But honestly, this game is not about mid-range, which is where Amarr is supposed to excel. In EVE you are either at long ranges 50km+ or you orbit at close rangers 500m-2km. Having guns with slow tracking speed as well as heavy cap usage that reach beyond that close range is pointless. I think you got me a bit wrong. Since the Argument of Pro and Contra on a Amarr Ship is preaty mutch on the Range vs Damage/Cap use. Ships with the Damage Bonus I allready told are fine for the most People so this Ships loose not the Range because of the Ship Bonus but a bit Tracking to to get them more inline with other Range Ships. As a benifit they use a bit less Cap and do a bit more damage especialy against Armor Omnitanks. Basicly my Idee was to change the Ships that are bad with Lasers in the standard use of Amarr Ships compared to Ships with Damage Bonus a new role. So better Tracking, a bit more Cap and Armor and less Cap use with Puls and a bit more Damage. So they are not that good on high Range but mutch more durable in short Range Combat. Mostly like a kind of Inversed Galente Gameplay heavy Damage/low Tank Close Range into Low-Med Damage/heavy Tank close Range. The Problem realy is you can¦t yust Boost Lasers. This will overpower the Ships that are good allready and will still not fix the Ships that are not that good because the lack of a real role. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.15 15:49:00 - [829] Originally by: The Djego The Problem realy is you can¦t yust Boost Lasers. This will overpower the Ships that are good allready and will still not fix the Ships that are not that good because the lack of a real role. Agree. But on the other hand - nefring lasers in anyway = killing them. Why someone need to use lasers if AC have same (or greater) dps and NO cap usage at all. So lasers need boosts but only for amarr ships. Any role ship bonuses?)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.15 15:55:00 - [830] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: The Djego The Problem realy is you can¦t yust Boost Lasers. This will overpower the Ships that are good allready and will still not fix the Ships that are not that good because the lack of a real role. Agree. But on the other hand - nefring lasers in anyway = killing them. Why someone need to use lasers if AC have same (or greater) dps and NO cap usage at all. So lasers need boosts but only for amarr ships. Any role ship bonuses?) With the current Laser Powergrid requirements, even if lasers were better than AC's, they would not be *****ble. So I dont think anyone would ever use lasers who are not amarr due to massive powergrid requirements. But perhaps the solution is to make Amarr do the least DPS of all racecs with lasers...... But have lasers do Multi-spectral Damage - i.E Equal amounts of all damage types. Boost Amarr powergrid a little to be able to fit lasers without 2-3 RCU II's, and then they would be competitive again. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)

The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.15 16:37:00 - [831] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: The Djego The Problem realy is you can¦t yust Boost Lasers. This will overpower the Ships that are good allready and will still not fix the Ships that are not that good because the lack of a real role. Agree. But on the other hand - nefring lasers in anyway = killing them. Why someone need to use lasers if AC have same (or greater) dps and NO cap usage at all. So lasers need boosts but only for amarr ships. Any role ship bonuses?) I have written my Opinion on Page 28 with some more detail. You can take a look into it. Laser suffers because they are a to universal Weapon and not affected by the Ship itself besides from the Damage/ROF Bonus there are not many real usefull Boni when it comes to a Level of T2 Weapons. The "Nerf" would cut the universal use by a large Amount, so the Ship Bonus have a higher Impact on the Weapon. By this it is possibel to alter there use to Close or Range purpose and making them perform better at this special Situation. The changes are small if you look at them alone but would make Puls Lasers alot better in close Combat and vs Omnitanks. The Damage would be more comparebal and the huge Optimal compared to Aks is still a great advantage. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Euxinus RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.15 17:02:00 - [832] HAY I AM PLAYING EVE ONLINE WHERE YOU ARE NOT RESTRICTED ONLY TO FLY YOUR RACE SHIPS! AWESOME ISN'T IT?
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.15 17:08:00 - [833] Originally by: Euxinus Edited by: Euxinus on 15/12/2007 17:06:48 Then dont fly amarr? Amarr has good ships too.. But a little less than any other races.. Why all races should be in equal terms with all aspects of game? I actually think your caps lock cruise control spam was more insightful than this. Heck, there's no need for balance at all! Why didn't we realize it before guys? Lets just all fly Megathrons in PvP and Ravens in PvE so noone's got a disadvantage!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.15 17:37:00 - [834] Originally by: Euxinus Edited by: Euxinus on 15/12/2007 17:06:48 Then dont fly amarr? Amarr has good ships too.. But a little less than any other races.. Why all races should be in equal terms with all aspects of game? Too bad they didnt listen to you back in the days. Then youd be in your crap ship or training to amarr, and we'd be laughing at you while we were melting your face in 5secs in ganka geddons. Is this the eve you want? Idiot post honestly. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.15 19:50:00 - [835] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 15/12/2007 19:51:29 Originally by: Euxinus Edited by: Euxinus on 15/12/2007 17:06:48 Then dont fly amarr? Amarr has good ships too.. But a little less than any other races.. Why all races should be in equal terms with all aspects of game? I almost laughed! If ONLY CCP did as you say 2 years ago, then Amarr would never have been nerfed from good race to useless in the first place! Every expansion had a Amarr nerf in it since then, and now Amarr race are uncompetitive unless at same SP level. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.12.15 19:54:00 - [836] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 15/12/2007 19:54:47 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 15/12/2007 19:51:29 Originally by: Euxinus Edited by: Euxinus on 15/12/2007 17:06:48 Then dont fly amarr? Amarr has good ships too.. But a little less than any other races.. Why all races should be in equal terms with all aspects of game? I almost laughed! If ONLY CCP did as you say 2 years ago, then Amarr would never have been nerfed from good race to useless in the first place! Every expansion had a Amarr nerf in it since then, and now Amarr race are uncompetitive unless at same SP level. Yeah because they never boosted Tachyon base damage, or increased pulse laser tracking, or increase the Armageddon CPU or... I'm not saying there's no need for some tinkering to still be done, but you're like a broken record with your posts... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.15 20:02:00 - [837] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 15/12/2007 20:06:48 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Yeah because they never boosted Tachyon base damage, or increased pulse laser tracking, or increase the Armageddon CPU or... I'm not saying there's no need for some tinkering to still be done, but you're like a broken record with your posts... hello??? 1. Lasers do less DPS due to less free slots = less dmg mods + crap damage type. 2. Lasers (pulse and beams) have worst tracking in their retrospective Classes. Still! 3. Armageddon CPU increase means that Amarr are fixed ;D? Dude, try fitting a 7 tach Geddon to be able to snipe a 7 Rail mega or any other race at 160km. Then come back and tell us how great the CPU increase is. And before you say "Pulse geddon" remember that EANM uses more CPU so it means Amarr tanks use a higher % of CPU than every other race! Its a false economy! Honestly, do you even bother to read this thread? Every expansion without fail since Cold War Expansion has slowly nerfed Amarr. Even Trinity nerfed Amarr EW to complete uselessness and Destroyed the Sentry Drone Arbritrator's DPS output by 50%, making it go from powerful cruiser, to useless. Even better with Trinity is that races with least midslots are double screwed with need midslot nerf. Racecs with plenty of mids can get away with it, races without lots of mids are screwed! Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.12.15 20:43:00 - [838] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 15/12/2007 20:02:39 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Yeah because they never boosted Tachyon base damage, or increased pulse laser tracking, or increase the Armageddon CPU or... I'm not saying there's no need for some tinkering to still be done, but you're like a broken record with your posts... hello??? 1. Lasers do less DPS due to less free slots = less dmg mods + crap damage type. 2. Lasers (pulse and beams) have worst tracking in their retrospective Classes. Still! 3. Armageddon CPU increase means that Amarr are fixed ;D? Dude, try fitting a 7 tach Geddon to be able to snipe a 7 Rail mega or any other race at 160km. Then come back and tell us how great the CPU increase is. And before you say "Pulse geddon" remember that EANM uses more CP so its a false economy! Honestly, do you even bother to read this thread? Every expansion without fail since Cold War Expansion has slowly nerfed Amarr. Even Trinity nerfed Amarr EW to complete uselessness and Destroyed the Sentry Drone Arbritrator's DPS output by 50%, making it go from powerful cruiser, to useless. And what would you know of the Cold war expansion?... post with your main, and if that is your main, then do not attempt to lecture someone on matters years before your time... Pulse lasers of the bygone era were obscene (no need to use beams because I can BBQ everything using a Radio lens in a pulse laser! Bonza!!) and got rightfully adjusted. Moving on... Patch 3910 - Tachyon boost Patch 33752 - 25% boost to pulse laser tracking, increased CPU need on EANM (nerf EM-strong 'omni tanks'), medium beam laser power requirements reduced. Patch 36191 - Khanid Mk II, Armageddon CPU increased, Zealot CPU & Power increased. Don't even start on the tracking... first of all, at least know you're own weapons FFS... beams have higher tracking than the equivalent Railguns or Artillery, 44.6% and 54.7% more respectively. Tracking tracking tracking... don't make me laugh, with a Megapulse II for 78% of the tracking of an 800mm II at 500% optimal range, and 54% higher optimal + falloff. Compared to a Neutron II you get 77.9% of the tracking at 333% optimal, and 86% more optimal + falloff. Minor, MINOR tweaking is all the Amarr need, so cut it with the 'broken' nonsense. If the ships were truly broken they'd not be in use anywhere. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.12.15 20:53:00 - [839] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 15/12/2007 20:15:42 Even Google Agrees that Amarr sucks more than Gallente! Congrats, that's the most ******** argument I've seen put forward on these boards. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.15 23:51:00 - [840] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Moving on... Patch 3910 - Tachyon boost Tachyon beam damage multiplier increased by about 4% - thats all. No fit reqs fixes (still need 1 fitting mods more than on other racial BS -> 1 less low slot -> -1 heatsink -> 15-20% less dps), no cap use fixes (still no way for use mwd and active tanking). And lets see other patch chandges: The capacitor need of all projectile turrets has been removed. The capacitor need of blasters has been reduced by 30% and the CPU need has been reduced by 15%. The power grid need of all heavy neutron blasters has been decreased by 10%. The base damage inflicted by 1200mm, 650mm and 250mm artillery has been increased by 10%.[/b] -> better rename it to Tach nerf patch. Originally by: Gabriel Karade Patch 33752 - 25% boost to pulse laser tracking, even with that boost still worst tracking Originally by: Gabriel Karade increased CPU need on EANM (nerf EM-strong 'omni tanks') another one indirect amarr nerf... Originally by: Gabriel Karade Patch 36191 - Khanid Mk II, Armageddon CPU increased, Zealot CPU & Power increased. Khanid Mk II... i personly think it is horrible nerf for pure amarrs. It forces to either forget about 1\2 t2 ships, or train another skill group. (As my friend said - "Khanid ships are awesome... for us, caldary") No need to say that many amarr pilots (like myself) started to play becose of ship/lasers design and this "boost" is spittle to our face. Armageddon still cannot fit tachs without PG and burns own cap in minutes, zealot still worst HAC in game. And lets see another side of patchnotes: Nosferatu changes (killed amarr recons) Boosted Deimos and Muninn (so zealot "boost" changed nothing) Originally by: Gabriel Karade Don't even start on the tracking... first of all, at least know you're own weapons FFS... beams have higher tracking than the equivalent Railguns or Artillery, 44.6% and 54.7% more respectively. Its true - pulses have best tracking, but in long range combat tracking is allmost useless. It helps sometimes, but range is more impotant thing. And pulses have worst range so 1 more TE -> 1 less med slot (and we dont have many btw) Originally by: Gabriel Karade Tracking tracking tracking... don't make me laugh, with a Megapulse II for 78% of the tracking of an 800mm II at 500% optimal range, and 54% higher optimal + falloff. Compared to a Neutron II you get 77.9% of the tracking at 333% optimal, and 86% more optimal + falloff. Cap usage - try to exsplain why lasers use so many cap? Or fitting reqs for beams? For what advantage over ac\arty\blaster\rails\missiles we have no active tanking at all,mwd, 1 ship bonus, 1 less med and low slots for tachs fits? I answer - there is NO real advantage. That is why ac\arty setups are common on amarr ships. Even witout ship bonuses they are better. Have you seen any non amarr ship using lasers btw (Now - not in Red moon rising)? Originally by: Gabriel Karade Minor, MINOR tweaking is all the Amarr need I disagree. We allready have this "MINOR tweakings" - and they not helped. Originally by: Gabriel Karade so cut it with the 'broken' nonsense. If the ships were truly broken they'd not be in use anywhere. Then according oficial statistic amarr ships are broken (or is there another reason why even minmatars have much more ships in eve?).

Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.16 00:44:00 - [841] Originally by: PeacefullNub Then according oficial statistic amarr ships are broken (or is there another reason why even minmatars have much more ships in eve?). I'm a relatively new guy, wasn't there a time when Amarr was the most populous race?
Talla Hurzin	Posted - 2007.12.16 01:28:00 - [842] Edited by: Talla Hurzin on 16/12/2007 01:29:35 Originally by: Dillius Archania Originally by: PeacefullNub Then according oficial statistic amarr ships are broken (or is there another reason why even minmatars have much more ships in eve?). I'm a relatively new guy, wasn't there a time when Amarr was the most populous race? Way back before 2005 there existed a 'gankageddon' setup. It was a geddon with a full rack of megapulses, and 8x heatsinks. There was no stacking penalty back then, and pulse lasers had 50% more range. It could BBQ anything within 60km in mere seconds; fleets of these ships were unstoppable. Then CCP implemented stacking penalties on damage mods, but at the same time also nerfed pulse laser range by half. Only the former was required to bring an end to gankageddons. PS: To all those discussing the finer points of Amarrian ships in this thread please remember that Amarr are more than our battleships.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.16 02:02:00 - [843] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 16/12/2007 02:04:38 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Patch 3910 - Tachyon boost Patch 33752 - 25% boost to pulse laser tracking, increased CPU need on EANM (nerf EM-strong 'omni tanks'), medium beam laser power requirements reduced. Patch 36191 - Khanid Mk II, Armageddon CPU increased, Zealot CPU & Power increased. Minor, MINOR tweaking is all the Amarr need, so cut it with the 'broken' nonsense. If the ships were truly broken they'd not be in use anywhere. 1. Patch 3910 Tach boost - Hello? The capacitor need of all projectile turrets has been removed, The base damage inflicted by 1200mm, 650mm and 250mm artillery has been increased by 10%. Minmatar UBER boost!, The capacitor need of blasters has been reduced by 30% and the CPU need has been reduced by 15%, The power grid need of all heavy neutron blasters has been decreased by 10% Gallente UBER BOOST. oh and tach get an extra 4% on modifyer. So insted of Apoc 200dps, it would now do 208dps. LoL. Basically This patch was Gallente and Minmatar UBER BOOST! 2. Patch 33752 - Increased CPU on EANM broke Amarr tank setups. Amarr have least CPU and thus unable to fit EANM properly. Therefore EANM's because a higher percentage of Amarr players CPU, amaking this EANM change hurt Amarr players who used it the most. 25% Tracking makes little difference as Amarr still have Worst Tracking and Worst Falloff. Results = Amarr Nerf 3. Patch 36191 - you claim Zealot Boost. Zealot is currently the worst HAC. This batch was a Mass Boost to Ccaldari, Minmatar and Gallente. E.G "Increased the CPU output on most Caldari capital ships" But Wait - This was the patch that made the Curse/Pilgrim obsolete due to Amarr EW Nerf! LOL The Cruse went from playable recon to useless and Sac went from useless to a Caldari HAM Cerberus which is decent. So Amarr now only have a Sac as a Competitive Ship. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
DroneBay Diva The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.16 04:12:00 - [844] Incredibly well written thread, whether you 100% agree or not. Deserves another bump until issues are looked at a little more seriously by CCP. ______________________________________________________________________________________
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.16 05:19:00 - [845] Originally by: DroneBay Diva Incredibly well written thread, whether you 100% agree or not. Deserves another bump until issues are looked at a little more seriously by CCP. Yeah, oomph us aleady. Its about time. CCP did a great job on oomphing our khanid ships into usefulness. Now only the turret ships left. How hard can it be. Let it be done... --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2007.12.16 06:30:00 - [846] bla.. Quote: on... Patch 3910 - Tachyon boost Patch 33752 - 25% boost to pulse laser tracking, increased CPU need on EANM (nerf EM-strong 'omni tanks'), medium beam laser power requirements reduced. Patch 36191 - Khanid Mk II, Armageddon CPU increased, Zealot CPU & Power increased. Don't even start on the tracking... first of all, at least know you're own weapons FFS... beams have higher tracking than the equivalent Railguns or Artillery, 44.6% and 54.7% more respectively. Tracking tracking tracking... don't make me laugh, with a Megapulse II for 78% of the tracking of an 800mm II at 500% optimal range, and 54% higher optimal + falloff. Compared to a Neutron more blah.... if you dont fly amarr ships - dont spam with "i read teh patchnotes and came to a conclusion..." you just dont know. and as far as the balanced pvp expirience goes , which is what this game should be aming for - caldary will be out of reach and with some good ewar and if you lucky to last till there capasitor runs out - the launchers will keep going.(althoug i must say i fealt good about gimping of torps) galantey will be next to you between 10 to 20 seconds. depending if you have a web or not. mimatar wil be hard to hit but even when you do - bace resistance of 70%EM on bs shoeld and 75/92 resistance on hacs will mak your turets impotant. and just emagin if they have an omnitank mod fitted. infact i dont think ther is much wrong with amar - (apart from asult frigats where mined bogles as to what was the plan for retribution and maybe abbadon) teh otehr races are on the other hand in need of a nerf. 1. could take away i mid slot from all ther races. (and give caldary extra low) 2. ( and that is a slightly more realistic one) no omnitaking mods AT ALL. in which case amar will have a reasonable advantage of having an extra low slot. and with that minmatar will have to loose tehre 70 % bace resistance to make it feir
Aindrias Amarr Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2007.12.16 06:30:00 - [847] I don't consider Knanid Mk II to be an Amarr Oomph. Not at all. My 500k SP in missile make it a novelty at best and currently only truly use a Malediction for tackling (which is slower than the Crusader, but has the mids for it). Maybe Khanid needed an Oomph, but I didn't see anyone on the forums here making eleventy bazillion threads on it. FURTHER BALANCE IS NOT ABOUT MAKING EVERYTHING EVEN FFS!!! It's about making the Good things about a race as equally effective as the good things about another race (NOT THE SAME) and making the bad things about a race as EQUALLY DETRIMENTAL. They don't have to be the same range or DPS or whatever. The AMARR PROBLEM is while a TANK is delaying the inevitable, our INEVITABLE will come before yours because a tanking built on CAPACITOR, and we have too many things to eat ours up. I wish I could BBQ things with Radio crystals.. but alls they do it EM, not Thermal
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.12.16 10:10:00 - [848] See? How typical... I point out specific boosts and you STILL whine. A 25% boost to tracking, giving you 78% of the tracking of a Neutron blaster at three, THREE times the range... and you still babble on about it... I'm sorry but a 'pure' Amarrian ignoring missiles is full of tosh, just what do you think this is? Khanid MkII was a massive boost, if you ignore those ships due to dogma, then sucks to be you. As for complaining about a Tier 1 battleship struggling to fit the largest of the large in turrets... ...join the club. Minor changes always have massive effects in this game. Personally I'd say tweak crystal damage back towards thermal, and make controlled bursts a 7.5% or even 10% per level skill. You could always do something a bit more radical such as remove a percentage of shield hitpoints and pile them onto the armour (more HP's in your most highly resisted layer), but you have to be careful with such changes, as you can guarantee amongst 30,000 players someone will find the next FoTm 'win button' that a dozen developers missed... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.12.16 10:16:00 - [849] Originally by: Anacrit Mc'Sinister Edited by: Anacrit Mc''Sinister on 16/12/2007 06:38:46 bla.. Quote: on... Patch 3910 - Tachyon boost Patch 33752 - 25% boost to pulse laser tracking, increased CPU need on EANM (nerf EM-strong 'omni tanks'), medium beam laser power requirements reduced. Patch 36191 - Khanid Mk II, Armageddon CPU increased, Zealot CPU & Power increased. Don't even start on the tracking... first of all, at least know you're own weapons FFS... beams have higher tracking than the equivalent Railguns or Artillery, 44.6% and 54.7% more respectively. Tracking tracking tracking... don't make me laugh, with a Megapulse II for 78% of the tracking of an 800mm II at 500% optimal range, and 54% higher optimal + falloff. Compared to a Neutron more blah.... if you dont fly amarr ships - dont spam with "i read teh patchnotes and came to a conclusion..." you just dont know. Quite the opposite, because I don't fly them I'm not biased towards them, but look at the cold hard numbers rather than some emotive "But I FLY amarr and this is what FEELS wrong". I've been around long enough to see the effects of various changes on all races. Quite frankly, judging from your post, balance changes that don't destroy the game seems a lost concept on you... "remove one mid slot, remove EAMN"... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.12.16 10:22:00 - [850] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 16/12/2007 02:04:38 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Patch 3910 - Tachyon boost Patch 33752 - 25% boost to pulse laser tracking, increased CPU need on EANM (nerf EM-strong 'omni tanks'), medium beam laser power requirements reduced. Patch 36191 - Khanid Mk II, Armageddon CPU increased, Zealot CPU & Power increased. Minor, MINOR tweaking is all the Amarr need, so cut it with the 'broken' nonsense. If the ships were truly broken they'd not be in use anywhere. 1. Patch 3910 Tach boost - Hello? The capacitor need of all projectile turrets has been removed, The base damage inflicted by 1200mm, 650mm and 250mm artillery has been increased by 10%. Minmatar UBER boost!, The capacitor need of blasters has been reduced by 30% and the CPU need has been reduced by 15%, The power grid need of all heavy neutron blasters has been decreased by 10% Gallente UBER BOOST. oh and tach get an extra 4% on modifyer. So insted of Apoc 200dps, it would now do 208dps. LoL. Basically This patch was Gallente and Minmatar UBER BOOST! I'll comment on this one and then I'm done. The top tier Gallente Battleship at the time required a T2 CPU fitting mod just to fit the middle tier of blasters - no Neutrons, no 'uber' tank, nothing to do with the heaviest long range weapons - just the middle tier blaster, a plate and a repairer... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'

Aindrias Amarr Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2007.12.16 10:24:00 - [851] Originally by: Gabriel Karade See? How typical... I point out specific boosts and you STILL whine. A 25% boost to tracking, giving you 78% of the tracking of a Neutron blaster at three, THREE times the range... and you still babble on about it... I'm sorry but a 'pure' Amarrian ignoring missiles is full of tosh, just what do you think this is? Khanid MkII was a massive boost, if you ignore those ships due to dogma, then sucks to be you. As for complaining about a Tier 1 battleship struggling to fit the largest of the large in turrets... ...join the club. Minor changes always have massive effects in this game. Personally I'd say tweak crystal damage back towards thermal, and make controlled bursts a 7.5% or even 10% per level skill. You could always do something a bit more radical such as remove a percentage of shield hitpoints and pile them onto the armour (more HP's in your most highly resisted layer), but you have to be careful with such changes, as you can guarantee amongst 30,000 players someone will find the next FoTm 'win button' that a dozen developers missed... I guess if I just wanted to fly THIS until I was able to fly Khanid Mk II I guess you point would make sense concerning having NO MISSILE SKILLS. Yes, this is the only touted "missile boat" in the T1 Amarr Inventory. huh.. Turret Speed? Who cares about the comparison with Blasters and Laser when it comes to that? You don't need much turret speed when you Optimal range is as short as it can be with Blasters.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.16 11:24:00 - [852] Originally by: Gabriel Karade The top tier Gallente Battleship at the time required a T2 CPU fitting mod just to fit the middle tier of blasters - no Neutrons, no 'uber' tank, nothing to do with the heaviest long range weapons - just the middle tier blaster, a plate and a repairer... I may be wrong - i have no alts with gallent BS. So i used eft - and hyperion actually fitted 8 neitrons II and lar II, and have 1\3 of his cpu left. So i dont know why he need CPU mods?
Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2007.12.16 13:13:00 - [853] Quote: Quite the opposite, because I don't fly them I'm not biased towards them, but look at the cold hard numbers rather than some emotive "But I FLY amarr and this is what FEELS wrong". what? what? are you serious about this statment?
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.16 13:40:00 - [854] Originally by: Gabriel Karade See? How typical... I point out specific boosts and you STILL whine. A 25% boost to tracking, giving you 78% of the tracking of a Neutron blaster at three, THREE times the range... and you still babble on about it... I'm sorry but a 'pure' Amarrian ignoring missiles is full of tosh, just what do you think this is? Khanid MkII was a massive boost, if you ignore those ships due to dogma, then sucks to be you. As for complaining about a Tier 1 battleship struggling to fit the largest of the large in turrets... ...join the club. Minor changes always have massive effects in this game. Personally I'd say tweak crystal damage back towards thermal, and make controlled bursts a 7.5% or even 10% per level skill. You could always do something a bit more radical such as remove a percentage of shield hitpoints and pile them onto the armour (more HP's in your most highly resisted layer), but you have to be careful with such changes, as you can guarantee amongst 30,000 players someone will find the next FoTm 'win button' that a dozen developers missed... 1. The Amarr frig you show - Be honest here - is that Missle t1 frig competitive with a kestrel - And I said - be honest! Is this OMG Amarr t1 missleship with its powerful EM missle damage bonus going to compete with a rifter or kestrel? 2. Tracking. Please fly a Amarr ship and then check tracking. Amarr still have worst tracking. 3. Khanid MKII. After the entire khanid scenario, we are back to where we starded. Before Khanid Curse was great. Now its useless due to CCP nerf, and now the Sac is competitive. The rest of the Khanid ships including curse are close to useless as it stands currently. The mael is 2nd rate and underpowered but it is still useable, though it needs to be able to compete with other races cepters. 4. Damage types are not the problem - its CCP introducing broken prenerfed skills like Armour compensation skills that effect EANMS but not actives. Guess what - the Useless EANM suddenly because more valuble than actives and hence Amarr lost out. CCP devs still dont get that it was their original Prenerf to Armour Compensation skills was the issue, so they will nerf something else. Remember NOBODY used Eanms before Armour Compensation skills, and the t2 Eanm BPO was laughed at one point as being close to useless. 5. Messing about with hitpoitns etc is just nerfing something to fix a broken concept. Adding a prenerf and nerfing something else to be balanced with the prenerf is silly and is what is breaking this game. CCP need to take Amarr back to the drawing board and redesign lasers and perhaps Amarr ships. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.12.16 13:50:00 - [855] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 16/12/2007 13:08:51 Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: Gabriel Karade The top tier Gallente Battleship at the time required a T2 CPU fitting mod just to fit the middle tier of blasters - no Neutrons, no 'uber' tank, nothing to do with the heaviest long range weapons - just the middle tier blaster, a plate and a repairer... I may be wrong - i have no alts with gallent BS. So i used eft - and hyperion actually fitted 8 neitrons II and lar II, and have 1\3 of his cpu left. So i dont know why he need CPU mods? Not only that EVEN if he needed t2 CPU prior to this patch, Amarr needed 2-3 RCU II's so his the argument is invalid. The old setups for blasters dont have t2 cpu, but it is not easy finding old fitouts. Strange how he forgot to mention that in this patch, the blaster setup for a MASSIVE boost in cap usage, fitting etc etc and he forgets to mention this. This made Amarr uncompetitive as they could not compete with Blster Boats. If CCP did the same boost to Lasers, it would make a massive Difference! You were refering to the blaster boost of almost two years ago idiot, there was no Hyperion (I was refering to the Megathron), and you never needed 2-3 RCU II to fit a similar amarr close range setup... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.12.16 14:00:00 - [856] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Gabriel Karade See? How typical... I point out specific boosts and you STILL whine. A 25% boost to tracking, giving you 78% of the tracking of a Neutron blaster at three, THREE times the range... and you still babble on about it... I'm sorry but a 'pure' Amarrian ignoring missiles is full of tosh, just what do you think this is? Khanid MkII was a massive boost, if you ignore those ships due to dogma, then sucks to be you. As for complaining about a Tier 1 battleship struggling to fit the largest of the large in turrets... ...join the club. Minor changes always have massive effects in this game. Personally I'd say tweak crystal damage back towards thermal, and make controlled bursts a 7.5% or even 10% per level skill. You could always do something a bit more radical such as remove a percentage of shield hitpoints and pile them onto the armour (more HP's in your most highly resisted layer), but you have to be careful with such changes, as you can guarantee amongst 30,000 players someone will find the next FoTm 'win button' that a dozen developers missed... 1. The Amarr frig you show - Be honest here - is that Missle t1 frig competitive with a kestrel - And I said - be honest! Is this OMG Amarr t1 missleship with its powerful EM missle damage bonus going to compete with a rifter or kestrel? 2. Tracking. Please fly a Amarr ship and then check tracking. Amarr still have worst tracking. 3. Khanid MKII. After the entire khanid scenario, we are back to where we starded. Before Khanid Curse was great. Now its useless due to CCP nerf, and now the Sac is competitive. The rest of the Khanid ships including curse are close to useless as it stands currently. The mael is 2nd rate and underpowered but it is still useable, though it needs to be able to compete with other races cepters. 4. Damage types are not the problem - its CCP introducing broken prenerfed skills like Armour compensation skills that effect EANMS but not actives. Guess what - the Useless EANM suddenly because more valuble than actives and hence Amarr lost out. CCP devs still dont get that it was their original Prenerf to Armour Compensation skills was the issue, so they will nerf something else. Remember NOBODY used Eanms before Armour Compensation skills, and the t2 Eanm BPO was laughed at one point as being close to useless. 5. Messing about with hitpoitns etc is just nerfing something to fix a broken concept. Adding a prenerf and nerfing something else to be balanced with the prenerf is silly and is what is breaking this game. CCP need to take Amarr back to the drawing board and redesign lasers and perhaps Amarr ships. Why don't you post with your main? 1) What frigate? that link is to an Amarrian cruise missile... 2) Funny I just said that... (78% of the tracking for 300% the optimal) 3) I've seen people overjoyed with the 'new' malediction, and the curse needed bringing down a notchà 4) Damage types are the problem according to most of your colleagues (and they are right), crystal damage got shifted towards EM, whilst omni-tanks became more prevalent. 5) m'kay, because putting hitpoints from the 'useless layer' into the 'primary resisted layer' would a nerf.... but that's an aside, re-design is not needed, tweaking is. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.16 14:08:00 - [857] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Gabriel Karade See? How typical... I point out specific boosts and you STILL whine. A 25% boost to tracking, giving you 78% of the tracking of a Neutron blaster at three, THREE times the range... and you still babble on about it... I'm sorry but a 'pure' Amarrian ignoring missiles is full of tosh, just what do you think this is? Khanid MkII was a massive boost, if you ignore those ships due to dogma, then sucks to be you. As for complaining about a Tier 1 battleship struggling to fit the largest of the large in turrets... ...join the club. Minor changes always have massive effects in this game. Personally I'd say tweak crystal damage back towards thermal, and make controlled bursts a 7.5% or even 10% per level skill. You could always do something a bit more radical such as remove a percentage of shield hitpoints and pile them onto the armour (more HP's in your most highly resisted layer), but you have to be careful with such changes, as you can guarantee amongst 30,000 players someone will find the next FoTm 'win button' that a dozen developers missed... 1. The Amarr frig you show - Be honest here - is that Missle t1 frig competitive with a kestrel - And I said - be honest! Is this OMG Amarr t1 missleship with its powerful EM missle damage bonus going to compete with a rifter or kestrel? 2. Tracking. Please fly a Amarr ship and then check tracking. Amarr still have worst tracking. 3. Khanid MKII. After the entire khanid scenario, we are back to where we starded. Before Khanid Curse was great. Now its useless due to CCP nerf, and now the Sac is competitive. The rest of the Khanid ships including curse are close to useless as it stands currently. The mael is 2nd rate and underpowered but it is still useable, though it needs to be able to compete with other races cepters. 4. Damage types are not the problem - its CCP introducing broken prenerfed skills like Armour compensation skills that effect EANMS but not actives. Guess what - the Useless EANM suddenly because more valuble than actives and hence Amarr lost out. CCP devs still dont get that it was their original Prenerf to Armour Compensation skills was the issue, so they will nerf something else. Remember NOBODY used Eanms before Armour Compensation skills, and the t2 Eanm BPO was laughed at one point as being close to useless. 5. Messing about with hitpoitns etc is just nerfing something to fix a broken concept. Adding a prenerf and nerfing something else to be balanced with the prenerf is silly and is what is breaking this game. CCP need to take Amarr back to the drawing board and redesign lasers and perhaps Amarr ships. Why don't you post with your main? 1) What frigate? that link is to an Amarrian cruise missile... 2) Funny I just said that... (78% of the tracking for 300% the optimal) 3) I've seen people overjoyed with the 'new' malediction, and the curse needed bringing down a notchà 4) Damage types are the problem according to most of your colleagues (and they are right), crystal damage got shifted towards EM, whilst omni-tanks became more prevalent. 5) m'kay, because putting hitpoints from the 'useless layer' into the 'primary resisted layer' would a nerf.... but that's an aside, re-design is not needed, tweaking is. 1. Though you were Talking baout Inquisitor Amarr Missle Frig 2. Read this thread. Mid Range is obsolete 3. mael is uncompetitive, curse is useless 4. CCP prenerf Armour Compensation + Hitpoint Boost caused the Damagetype problem. 5. You havent a clue what you are talking about. CCP should go back to Cold War Expansion Amarr for balance. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.16 14:11:00 - [858] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 16/12/2007 14:11:33 Originally by: Gabriel Karade You were refering to the blaster boost of almost two years ago idiot, there was no Hyperion (I was refering to the Megathron), and you never needed 2-3 RCU II to fit a similar amarr close range setup... Did i say Hyperion? Is this 2 years ago? Amarr were not underpowered 2 years ago, like they are today! Was it not around 2 years ago when Lasers got Massive nerfs forcing Amarr to use multiple RCU's to fit? Did t2 CPU's even exist 2 years ago? I better check to see if the lottery spawned them by then. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.12.16 14:17:00 - [859] Ah sod it, you aren't even reading my posts (click that link for instance, oh look cruise missile, not a frigate...) I on the otherhand have read whole the thread, there is some good input, and then there's the likes of you (what would a 5 month old character know of the 'Cold war' expansion)... Oh and mid range is not obsolete, it was just never viable for solo work (no whey!!11 ). ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.12.16 14:19:00 - [860] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 16/12/2007 14:11:33 Originally by: Gabriel Karade You were refering to the blaster boost of almost two years ago idiot, there was no Hyperion (I was refering to the Megathron), and you never needed 2-3 RCU II to fit a similar amarr close range setup... Did i say Hyperion? Is this 2 years ago? Amarr were not underpowered 2 years ago, like they are today! Was it not around 2 years ago when Lasers got Massive nerfs forcing Amarr to use multiple RCU's to fit? Did t2 CPU's even exist 2 years ago? I better check to see if the lottery spawned them by then. Patch 3910. You: "Oh but look Blasters got a massive boost back then" Me: "Yes, because you needed a T2 CPU upgrade to fit even a moderate setup" Yes that was almost two years ago. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'

PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.16 15:15:00 - [861] Peace, my brothers and sisters Seriously, there is to need in posts like: "Im fly amarr(any other race) and you dont, so you know nothing." "Im older than you so shut up." "You dont fully read my posts so i dont read yours" etc. This topic is not about your age or sp, or killboard place. Argue the facts and analyses - instead of emotions.
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.16 16:35:00 - [862] Between this post and the dozens that creep up in Ships and Modules, particularly recently, every argument has been argued at least once. Really at this point it's just a matter of: 1. CCP not giving a crap about the smallest percent of players 2. CCP having absolutely no idea what to do
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.16 20:11:00 - [863] Originally by: Gabriel Karade You were refering to the blaster boost of almost two years ago idiot, there was no Hyperion (I was refering to the Megathron), and you never needed 2-3 RCU II to fit a similar amarr close range setup... What Amarr close range set up? You mean our "mid range" Pulses that can't get an optimal within 4km without intentionally sabotaging your skills?
Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2007.12.16 20:14:00 - [864] Quote: Ah sod it, you aren't even reading my posts (click that link for instance, oh look cruise missile, not a frigate...) thats right - leave - you have nothing to put in to this. you fly galanty which is by all acounts the most powerfull race. you dont fly amarr...JUST reading teh patch notest IS NOT ENOUGH.
Plausable Swap	Posted - 2007.12.16 21:14:00 - [865] signed. oh, and I read it all. Took me a while, but I read it all. And then some (only a few pages of replies) :P ++
Plausable Swap	Posted - 2007.12.16 21:24:00 - [866] Originally by: Blutreiter Originally by: Aranbaal Originally by: Lord XSiV It is hard to determine which race to train during these times.....Gallente just got nerfed, minnie is possibly next, caldari is always a safe bet.... Wasnt hard for me to choose what to train ... Am currently training amarr cause nothin else can do what the abaddon does. Quoted for truth. Nothing in this game caps out as fast as an abaddon This was the very first thing that came to my mind. hahaha. ++
Trademiester	Posted - 2007.12.16 21:45:00 - [867] /signed
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.16 22:47:00 - [868] Originally by: Plausable Swap Originally by: Blutreiter Originally by: Aranbaal Originally by: Lord XSiV It is hard to determine which race to train during these times.....Gallente just got nerfed, minnie is possibly next, caldari is always a safe bet.... Wasnt hard for me to choose what to train ... Am currently training amarr cause nothin else can do what the abaddon does. Quoted for truth. Nothing in this game caps out as fast as an abaddon This was the very first thing that came to my mind. hahaha. Puts a ribbon that reads "#1 in Nosferatu Defense" on his Abaddon
Rustbucket Freedom Confederation	Posted - 2007.12.16 23:51:00 - [869] played this game since the beta, love armarr hated the way they have been nerfed. Freedom Confederation Fighting For Free Space
adriaans Amarr Advanced Capital Ship Designs	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:08:00 - [870] Originally by: Talla Hurzin PS: To all those discussing the finer points of Amarrian ships in this thread please remember that Amarr are more than our battleships. -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr! (Or make Amarr the only race able to deal EM damage from turrets).

PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.17 03:19:00 - [871] Originally by: Anacrit Mc'Sinister Quote: Ah sod it, you aren't even reading my posts (click that link for instance, oh look cruise missile, not a frigate...) thats right - leave - you have nothing to put in to this. you fly galanty which is by all acounts the most powerfull race. you dont fly amarr...JUST reading teh patch notest IS NOT ENOUGH. The main problem here - subjectivity of opinions. For example the person did not fly on amarr ships and has no concept, what is cap problems, low tracking and pg fitting. But he knows that such problems with range of blasters and cpu fittings. As a result: "improvement of lasers and tracking is pure boost, becouse they have no problems with range and cpu (and there are other important problems?), and improvement of blasters, and rails is only necessary fixing - becouse they are difficult to fit, etc." but sadly, when patches boosted their weapons, they forget favourite phrase "all weapon should have lacks and advantages" Projektiles and hybrids have some disadvantages, but sadly - ac\arti\blaster fits are common on amarr ships, but laser fits never used on mega for example. So i think that lasers are broken
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.17 04:48:00 - [872] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: Anacrit Mc'Sinister Quote: Ah sod it, you aren't even reading my posts (click that link for instance, oh look cruise missile, not a frigate...) thats right - leave - you have nothing to put in to this. you fly galanty which is by all acounts the most powerfull race. you dont fly amarr...JUST reading teh patch notest IS NOT ENOUGH. The main problem here - subjectivity of opinions. For example the person did not fly on amarr ships and has no concept, what is cap problems, low tracking and pg fitting. But he knows that such problems with range of blasters and cpu fittings. As a result: "improvement of lasers and tracking is pure boost, becouse they have no problems with range and cpu (and there are other important problems?), and improvement of blasters, and rails is only necessary fixing - becouse they are difficult to fit, etc." but sadly, when patches boosted their weapons, they forget favourite phrase "all weapon should have lacks and advantages" Projektiles and hybrids have some disadvantages, but sadly - ac\arti\blaster fits are common on amarr ships, but laser fits never used on mega for example. So i think that lasers are broken Sheerly by the number of forum posts complaining, there has to be some kind of problem. It's not like our suggestions will be taken into consideration much anyways (method of the NOS nerf anyone?). CCP will be the one to decide changes if (when, hopefully) something happens.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.17 06:16:00 - [873] Originally by: Dillius Archania It's not like our suggestions will be taken into consideration much anyways (method of the NOS nerf anyone?). CCP will be the one to decide changes if (when, hopefully) something happens. That is what i fear. CCP allready showed that their metods of solving problems sometimes... questionable. And still no response from devs here. So its quite possible that we will have another stupid skilltree misplace like they done in khanid mk2 - and ironicly, they will call it "amarr boost" (i guess it will be shield tanking on chantum conglomerate ships - its only 1 left that amarrs dont need to learn today). And another 2 years to prove that problem still exist.
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security	Posted - 2007.12.17 07:38:00 - [874] Just something I thought of after I posted my last thread.... What if lasers had their cap usage changed so Amarr didn't need the other bonus, and Amarr ships got a 10% reduction in the stacking nerf instead? Essentially, this would half return the old 8 damage mod gankageddons, but with only 4 or 5 HS instead of 8. This gives you the option of really heavy damage at the expense of cap/tank, or heavy tank at the expense of damage (as the bonus affects EAN's and hardners too). But in order to achieve this above-average tank, you need to use 4 or 5 lows for EANs, and have less for heat sinks, and to get the extra gank, you need 4 or 5 HSII, and less of a tank. Thoughts..? -----sig-starts-here------ Witty stuff goes here
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.17 10:42:00 - [875] Edited by: The Djego on 17/12/2007 10:54:53 Edited by: The Djego on 17/12/2007 10:53:50 Originally by: Verx Interis Just something I thought of after I posted my last thread.... What if lasers had their cap usage changed so Amarr didn't need the other bonus, and Amarr ships got a 10% reduction in the stacking nerf instead? Essentially, this would half return the old 8 damage mod gankageddons, but with only 4 or 5 HS instead of 8. This gives you the option of really heavy damage at the expense of cap/tank, or heavy tank at the expense of damage (as the bonus affects EAN's and hardners too). But in order to achieve this above-average tank, you need to use 4 or 5 lows for EANs, and have less for heat sinks, and to get the extra gank, you need 4 or 5 HSII, and less of a tank. Thoughts..? This is a bit to special as all other Ships got more or less standard Boni. Besides it would make balacing of the Ships nearly impossibel since many of the Ships have more Low Slots than the other Races it would tend to create pure Gank on the BS that are ok today(Gedon and Abbadon). I stated my Opinion on Page 28. I think giving a better role to the Ships that tend to tank without changing mutch on Lasers and the Ships with the Damage Boni. This would be a proper way to rebalance the Ships that tend to be less usefull and keeping balance to the Ships that are atm. Btw can everybody clam down a bit. The Laser vs Hybrid and Amarr vs Galente of the last 2 Pages is not very constructive and make the Thread booring to read. Please keep more to Topic and about what you think is wrong(bring it to a point) and what would be a possible solution to change it. Keep in Mind that big changes on many Ships will most likly not happen because they are very difficult to balance out. Spamming a Thread would make this one more or less a wast of time and focus like all the other Amarr fix Threads. Thank you. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:46:00 - [876] I think it could be solved quite easily by reducing the capconsumption on lasers, changing the unimaginative 10 bonus to capconsumption to something else should do the trick. About the Curse/Pilgrim, can anyone please explain to me why it was necessary to nerf them ships so brutally? I apreciate the fact that NOS was overpowered, and you saw ships fitting nothing but NOS and relying on drones to bring down the oponent. That problem could'e been fixed quite easily by giving ships a limited amount of NOS/Neutralizer hardpoints, instead of an overly complicated formula which I personally don't understand anything of :( It has to be said that I suck at math, so if anyone could try to explain that to me I'd be ever so gratefull :) ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:55:00 - [877] Originally by: SkyCrane I think it could be solved quite easily by reducing the capconsumption on lasers, changing the unimaginative 10 bonus to capconsumption to something else should do the trick. About the Curse/Pilgrim, can anyone please explain to me why it was necessary to nerf them ships so brutally? I apreciate the fact that NOS was overpowered, and you saw ships fitting nothing but NOS and relying on drones to bring down the oponent. That problem could'e been fixed quite easily by giving ships a limited amount of NOS/Neutralizer hardpoints, instead of an overly complicated formula which I personally don't understand anything of :( It has to be said that I suck at math, so if anyone could try to explain that to me I'd be ever so gratefull :) You can¦t Nos People to the ground anymore. Since you can¦t get Cap of something that has less Cap than you in %. So it is impossible to feed your own Tank with Nos and killing the Tank on the other Ship on the same Time. Well the Amarr Reacons got hit very Hard by this. Mayby a Bonus to reduce the Cap use on Neutraliser would be nice. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Cainne Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:00:00 - [878] testing -------------------------------------------
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:01:00 - [879] "Oomph" - The sound of CCP kicking Amarr in the stomach. Usually followed by "Shut up!" ------------------------------------------ Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:56:00 - [880] Originally by: The Djego You can¦t Nos People to the ground anymore. Since you can¦t get Cap of something that has less Cap than you in %. So it is impossible to feed your own Tank with Nos and killing the Tank on the other Ship on the same Time. Well the Amarr Reacons got hit very Hard by this. Really seems to be the problem particularly with the Pilgrim. Once, it could both damage the enemies cap and maintain it's own for a tank for defense. Now, it can only choose to do one or the other.

Jill Antaris	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:35:00 - [881] Edited by: Jill Antaris on 17/12/2007 22:42:21 /signed Lasers should be more effective against omni Tanks. It is a bit hardcore forcing Lasers most of the Time to beat 60-80% Resitance. To be honest it don¦t make a diffrence if the Ship is T1 or T2. On T2 Ships EM Resitance(ok Mini is a other Story) is lower as on T1 atm. We need more Thermal, not Kinetic or Explosive! There is a reason nobody fits a EM Hardner in PVP. Ps. Damn missed the 900 mark close. Nerf Lasers! Thay need far to less CPU and Grid to Fit. Still using not enught Cap and do far to mutch Damage. O wait... they allready did... =(
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.18 00:22:00 - [882] Originally by: Jill Antaris Ps. Damn missed the 900 mark close. Unlucky! Latest Video, Click Here!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.18 00:27:00 - [883] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 18/12/2007 00:28:20 Originally by: Verx Interis Just something I thought of after I posted my last thread.... What if lasers had their cap usage changed so Amarr didn't need the other bonus, and Amarr ships got a 10% reduction in the stacking nerf instead? Essentially, this would half return the old 8 damage mod gankageddons, but with only 4 or 5 HS instead of 8. This gives you the option of really heavy damage at the expense of cap/tank, or heavy tank at the expense of damage (as the bonus affects EAN's and hardners too). But in order to achieve this above-average tank, you need to use 4 or 5 lows for EANs, and have less for heat sinks, and to get the extra gank, you need 4 or 5 HSII, and less of a tank. Thoughts..? yes. Sansha Nightmare fixed Amarr - I know it sounds crazy, but yes - its a great ship since it does what Amarr ships are ment to. It can fit a rack of guns, do good damage, have tracking the same as another racec, have half fittig/cap for lasers due to 4 double turrets. Plenty of mids gives it flexibility, 5 lows are real lows so 2-3 rcu's are not needed. They took what was wrong with Amarr and sorted it into Sansha. Bravo. CCP, take the Nightmare, take off a high and a mid and call it a new abaddon - everyone will love you for it. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.18 06:21:00 - [884] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 18/12/2007 00:28:20 Originally by: Verx Interis Just something I thought of after I posted my last thread.... What if lasers had their cap usage changed so Amarr didn't need the other bonus, and Amarr ships got a 10% reduction in the stacking nerf instead? Essentially, this would half return the old 8 damage mod gankageddons, but with only 4 or 5 HS instead of 8. This gives you the option of really heavy damage at the expense of cap/tank, or heavy tank at the expense of damage (as the bonus affects EAN's and hardners too). But in order to achieve this above-average tank, you need to use 4 or 5 lows for EANs, and have less for heat sinks, and to get the extra gank, you need 4 or 5 HSII, and less of a tank. Thoughts..? yes. Sansha Nightmare fixed Amarr - I know it sounds crazy, but yes - its a great ship since it does what Amarr ships are ment to. It can fit a rack of guns, do good damage, have tracking the same as another racec, have half fittig/cap for lasers due to 4 double turrets. Plenty of mids gives it flexibility, 5 lows are real lows so 2-3 rcu's are not needed. They took what was wrong with Amarr and sorted it into Sansha. Bravo. CCP, take the Nightmare, take off a high and a mid and call it a new abaddon - everyone will love you for it. There any information from anyone having tried out the new nightmare in combat yet? PvE or PvP? I have to admit the changes they made to it seemed like a start.
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:16:00 - [885] Edited by: SkyCrane on 18/12/2007 09:20:00 Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 09/11/2007 07:16:25 Not signed. Amarr trade for superior tracking on long range weapons, no reloading time, extremely short ammo changing time, higher range on close range weapons (pulses) or higher dps on long range weapons (beams) for higher capacitor use and limited damage flexibility. It's a fair trade and it's balanced. Your setups are also intentionally rigged to justify your strained thesis. I lol'd It's been said a number of times, but how often do you fight at 30-50 km's range? And have you checked the obscene damagepotential on pulses fitted with radio? It's not subtle... The Rifter is probably more effective (wihout having actually checked that). Higher DPS on longrange weapong? THat's quite funny too.. Especially since you're gimped from stage 1 with beams due to excessive PG usage, not to mention tachyons. Try to fit a full rack of tachyons on an Abaddon, and at the same time have enough cap to do three volleys. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Highkoo	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:20:00 - [886] Seriously CCP stop making excuses and do something about this, the imbalances that Amarr specialized pilots must suffer is far to great to continue overlooking. Thanks allot to the OP for taking the time to lay all this out. H.K.
Laila Eldgorn	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:37:00 - [887] I demand every amarr pilot asking for amarr oomph goes and gets some kills outside wtfpwn blob combat with caldari turret ships before complaining that range doesn't make up the damage or they don't have capacitor. And don't come whining here after you get wtfbbqed by a geddon.
Soratah Amarr The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:35:00 - [888] One possibility would be to give them oomph in the other areas. One proposal ( a bit drastic) Axe all pulse lasers and replace with plasma cannons (em/thermal with more balance towards thermal) focussing crystals, range equiv to blasters. Beam lasers go EM damage only, crystals are replaced with targetting scripts (scripts focussed on areas of damage for guns, speed, repping, etc). EM damage is applied to modules on the opposing warship.
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:34:00 - [889] Originally by: Dark Flare You have to remember that the Dominix can't do instant-damage as well as the Geddon however, as most of it's dps is from the drones. But yes, I agree the Domi is a bit strong. So sentrydrones don't do instant-damage? ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Vrabac Amarr BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:52:00 - [890] Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: Dark Flare You have to remember that the Dominix can't do instant-damage as well as the Geddon however, as most of it's dps is from the drones. But yes, I agree the Domi is a bit strong. So sentrydrones don't do instant-damage? 7 mega pulses with 3 heatsinks >>>>> 5 sentry drones Damage of sentry drones isn't that stellar. Dominix really is far from ideal cornerstone ship in gang fights. Amarr battleships are very very good for gangs and pretty weak solo- not something that looks very wrong. I'd have a gankgeddon instead of any other than logistic domi next to me in a gang any time. Oh and apoc doesnt count, apoc is a mining barge.

Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:54:00 - [891] Originally by: Vrabac Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: Dark Flare You have to remember that the Dominix can't do instant-damage as well as the Geddon however, as most of it's dps is from the drones. But yes, I agree the Domi is a bit strong. So sentrydrones don't do instant-damage? 7 mega pulses with 3 heatsinks >>>>> 5 sentry drones Damage of sentry drones isn't that stellar. Dominix really is far from ideal cornerstone ship in gang fights. Amarr battleships are very very good for gangs and pretty weak solo- not something that looks very wrong. I'd have a gankgeddon instead of any other than logistic domi next to me in a gang any time. Oh and apoc doesnt count, apoc is a mining barge. Domi + Blasters + Drones > Geddon + Drones. Poor geddon will be out of cap after a minute, and lacks the tank mods since he put in 3 heatsinks thus left with wasted slots on fitting mods. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Vrabac Amarr BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:13:00 - [892] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Vrabac Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: Dark Flare You have to remember that the Dominix can't do instant-damage as well as the Geddon however, as most of it's dps is from the drones. But yes, I agree the Domi is a bit strong. So sentrydrones don't do instant-damage? 7 mega pulses with 3 heatsinks >>>>> 5 sentry drones Damage of sentry drones isn't that stellar. Dominix really is far from ideal cornerstone ship in gang fights. Amarr battleships are very very good for gangs and pretty weak solo- not something that looks very wrong. I'd have a gankgeddon instead of any other than logistic domi next to me in a gang any time. Oh and apoc doesnt count, apoc is a mining barge. Domi + Blasters + Drones > Geddon + Drones. Poor geddon will be out of cap after a minute, and lacks the tank mods since he put in 3 heatsinks thus left with wasted slots on fitting mods. You dont get it. Blasters means no instant damage since it needs to mwd into optimal. We're talking about instant damage here. Sentry drones have low dps. And geddon will not be out of cap, that's what cap boosters are for. However I'm talking about GANGS not 1 vs 1. There is no doubt 1 vs 1 domi will win except if he's really really bad. However in a gang geddon > domi, except if domi is logistic but even than gang only needs so many logistic ships and as many as possible dmg dealers. Oh, and heatsinks arent wasted slots. It's best mod you can fit into low slots. Appears to me you have fitting issues.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:27:00 - [893] I always thought that adding EM/Explosive damage crystals would solve the EANM armor tank problem. Best way to do it in my opinion: Multifrequency/X-Ray/Standard/Radio stay as they are. Gamma/Ultraviolet/Microwave are changed to EM/Explosive damage. Add new T2 ammos which also deal EM/Explosive.
bogir War And Peace Construction	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:38:00 - [894] Originally by: Traeon I always thought that adding EM/Explosive damage crystals would solve the EANM armor tank problem. Best way to do it in my opinion: Multifrequency/X-Ray/Standard/Radio stay as they are. Gamma/Ultraviolet/Microwave are changed to EM/Explosive damage. Add new T2 ammos which also deal EM/Explosive. how do you get a laser to explod...... ???????? Ceo of WAPC WE can build it.
Cursus	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:41:00 - [895] Originally by: bogir how do you get a laser to explod...... ???????? By making the laser frequency induce an explosive chain reaction in the target material. Don't ask me what frequency that is for the standard ship shield/armor/hull material though.
Angry Sheep Amarr Aur0ra	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:59:00 - [896] Quote: how do you get a laser to explod...... ???????? The same way you warp through planets, bump freighters out the way, bounce of stations, use no fuel in travel, move at a constant in space and generally ignore physics It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:02:00 - [897] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 18/12/2007 14:06:04 Originally by: Angry Sheep Quote: how do you get a laser to explod...... ???????? The same way you warp through planets, bump freighters out the way, bounce of stations, use no fuel in travel, move at a constant in space and generally ignore physics Also swim in space submarine style. However, the infinite power souce of gravity does not exist in eve, so thats realistic... hmmmmmmm Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:09:00 - [898] Originally by: Traeon I always thought that adding EM/Explosive damage crystals would solve the EANM armor tank problem. Best way to do it in my opinion: Multifrequency/X-Ray/Standard/Radio stay as they are. Gamma/Ultraviolet/Microwave are changed to EM/Explosive damage. Add new T2 ammos which also deal EM/Explosive. EANM was never a problem till CCP prenerfed Armour Compensation Skills. Prior to Armour compensation skills, people used active harders. EANM's were laughed at. Then CCP added Armour Compensation skills so EANM's became better than Actives, and boom, EANM issue happened overnight as lasers were balanced with active hardning and not with Armour Compensation Skills How to fix? Easy - UnNerf Armour Compensation skills to effect Active Hardners, or Remove Armour Compensation skills altogether. Both these situations will get people to use Active hardners again. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Jarod Hawke Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:44:00 - [899] Edited by: Jarod Hawke on 18/12/2007 14:44:44 I didn't feel like digging through 30+ threads but I'm sure the analysis of the raven is false since Torps have become useless since trinity because of their range. So pleas Add Caldari to your list of races to fix.
Vrabac Amarr BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:51:00 - [900] Originally by: Jarod Hawke Edited by: Jarod Hawke on 18/12/2007 14:44:44 I didn't feel like digging through 30+ threads but I'm sure the analysis of the raven is false since Torps have become useless since trinity because of their range. So pleas Add Caldari to your list of races to fix. Is that your professional mission runner's oppinion?

SketS	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:52:00 - [901] moo, says the koe (thats cow in dutchlandisch)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:20:00 - [902] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 18/12/2007 15:20:36 Originally by: Jarod Hawke Edited by: Jarod Hawke on 18/12/2007 14:44:44 I didn't feel like digging through 30+ threads but I'm sure the analysis of the raven is false since Torps have become useless since trinity because of their range. So pleas Add Caldari to your list of races to fix. Raven was crap for close range gank, now it is great since MASSIVE torp boost. Torps massive DPS increase means you can pvp in a raven and actually win! I have yet to meet a raven pvper who thinks torps is nerfed! Wait..... you are a pvper? Or are you a Troll? Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Vrabac Amarr BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:28:00 - [903] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Raven was crap for close range gank, now it is great since MASSIVE torp boost. Torps massive DPS increase means you can pvp in a raven and actually win! I have yet to meet a raven pvper who thinks torps is nerfed! Wait..... you are a pvper? Or are you a Troll? Can't you see poor man couldnt do Angel Extravaganza bonus room?
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:30:00 - [904] Originally by: Vrabac You dont get it. Blasters means no instant damage since it needs to mwd into optimal. We're talking about instant damage here. Sentry drones have low dps. And geddon will not be out of cap, that's what cap boosters are for. However I'm talking about GANGS not 1 vs 1. There is no doubt 1 vs 1 domi will win except if he's really really bad. However in a gang geddon > domi, except if domi is logistic but even than gang only needs so many logistic ships and as many as possible dmg dealers. Oh, and heatsinks arent wasted slots. It's best mod you can fit into low slots. Appears to me you have fitting issues. So you're saying the Armageddon is gonna kill you in that single round of fire. I think you're missing one of the core points of the discussion. Awwww. You have to MWD into optimal? Guess what. YOU CAN. Amarr ships can't afford to MWD if they want to be able to fire for more than a minute. So you know whats going to happen in your Domi on Geddon conflict here? The geddon will rip you to absolutely pieces, until you get up in his face. At which point, your tank will allow you to easily handle the damage dealt inside optimal, particularly since your guns take so little cap and your drones absolutely none. Then you're in blaster range, the geddon's barely in his own weapons range, and you've got all the cap in the world while he blew most of his trying to kill you while you tried to get to him. If he'd had an MWD fit, well he could prolly have come a little closer to killing you, but he would have been out of capacitor in a matter of seconds trying to keep you in his optimal and out of yours. Eventually, oops, caps gone, Geddon can't fire nor keep range, and dies.
Vrabac Amarr BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:40:00 - [905] Originally by: Dillius Archania Originally by: Vrabac You dont get it. Blasters means no instant damage since it needs to mwd into optimal. We're talking about instant damage here. Sentry drones have low dps. And geddon will not be out of cap, that's what cap boosters are for. However I'm talking about GANGS not 1 vs 1. There is no doubt 1 vs 1 domi will win except if he's really really bad. However in a gang geddon > domi, except if domi is logistic but even than gang only needs so many logistic ships and as many as possible dmg dealers. Oh, and heatsinks arent wasted slots. It's best mod you can fit into low slots. Appears to me you have fitting issues. So you're saying the Armageddon is gonna kill you in that single round of fire. I think you're missing one of the core points of the discussion. Awwww. You have to MWD into optimal? Guess what. YOU CAN. Amarr ships can't afford to MWD if they want to be able to fire for more than a minute. So you know whats going to happen in your Domi on Geddon conflict here? The geddon will rip you to absolutely pieces, until you get up in his face. At which point, your tank will allow you to easily handle the damage dealt inside optimal, particularly since your guns take so little cap and your drones absolutely none. Then you're in blaster range, the geddon's barely in his own weapons range, and you've got all the cap in the world while he blew most of his trying to kill you while you tried to get to him. If he'd had an MWD fit, well he could prolly have come a little closer to killing you, but he would have been out of capacitor in a matter of seconds trying to keep you in his optimal and out of yours. Eventually, oops, caps gone, Geddon can't fire nor keep range, and dies. Please read what I said. I explicitely said in 1 vs 1 domi will win. But geddon is better gang damage dealer. Try mwding into you otpimal while being primaried by 5-10 ships (the less geddons the better for you), you'll pop before you or your drones get half way there. As for cap, geddon has no cap issues unless you fit reps. If you fit reps go back to the drawing board. Geddon is not a solo ship, sadly. But it's a very cost effective and durable gang dps ship, something domi isnt. It would be a shame if this thread devolves into whining of people who fit badly, since it has a lot of potential from the start. Dont point fingers where it isnt needed and destroy it's credibility. Amarr have massive issues, but battleships excluding apoc arent one of them. Again, they are bad solo. But they are very good in gang. We just have to live with it, and it's not really that hard to do. There are tonns of other amarr ships that are simply rubish in any situation, so stop whining about your dual repping hyperion-wannabe geddon pls.
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.18 16:18:00 - [906] Originally by: Vrabac Amarr have massive issues, but battleships excluding apoc arent one of them. Again, they are bad solo. But they are very good in gang. Are you actually saying here that you think the Abaddon is a good ship? Or do I misread you here now? And you claim the Apoc to be good and the Geddon and Abaddon are s*it? ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.18 16:22:00 - [907] Originally by: Vrabac Please read what I said. I explicitely said in 1 vs 1 domi will win. But geddon is better gang damage dealer. Try mwding into you otpimal while being primaried by 5-10 ships (the less geddons the better for you), you'll pop before you or your drones get half way there. As for cap, geddon has no cap issues unless you fit reps. If you fit reps go back to the drawing board. Geddon is not a solo ship, sadly. But it's a very cost effective and durable gang dps ship, something domi isnt. It would be a shame if this thread devolves into whining of people who fit badly, since it has a lot of potential from the start. Dont point fingers where it isnt needed and destroy it's credibility. Amarr have massive issues, but battleships excluding apoc arent one of them. Again, they are bad solo. But they are very good in gang. We just have to live with it, and it's not really that hard to do. There are tonns of other amarr ships that are simply rubish in any situation, so stop whining about your dual repping hyperion-wannabe geddon pls. My mistake (though I love how unconditional you made that "domi will win" statement in regards to domi vs geddon). It can certainly outdamage a Dominix in a constant situation of mid range combat. Then again, why on earth would you be using a dominix in gang combat when you have the Megathron as an option? Know what our options are? A cheap but effective laser boat that'll cap out in a matter of minutes with nothing but it's guns, a cap starved hard armor laser boat that can tear some stuff to pieces for heck at least a few minutes, and a cap-happy no tank no gank laser boat that's generally regarded as the worst battleship in existence. Even without reps, if you have an MWD your cap is going to be a problem. Yea, Amarr ships are sure nice for gang action. Or at least until they cap out. Even then, there are plenty of other ships that do JUST AS WELL without all the drawbacks associated with the heavy cap use. Furthermore, I'd like to reiterate a point made earlier: Amarr aren't only their battleships! I believe is has been stated NUMEROUS times in a dozen different threads that the Armageddon and the Abaddon are very near to the only things worth flying in our lineup at all. (Short of Capital ships of course)
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.18 16:24:00 - [908] Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: Vrabac Amarr have massive issues, but battleships excluding apoc arent one of them. Again, they are bad solo. But they are very good in gang. Are you actually saying here that you think the Abaddon is a good ship? Or do I misread you here now? And you claim the Apoc to be good and the Geddon and Abaddon are s*it? The abaddon is the best tanking BS arround and does high dps to go with it. Which is why i just trained amarr cause my own race hav nothing that comes close.
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.12.18 16:47:00 - [909] This thread is still alive? /me goes to start a "ultimate" caldari problem thread ____________________ Hi. I'm not an alt :)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.18 17:22:00 - [910] Edited by: The Djego on 18/12/2007 17:22:28 Originally by: techzer0 This thread is still alive? /me goes to start a "ultimate" nerf caldari thread Fixed Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD

PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.18 18:06:00 - [911] I dont understand posts like: "You have cap booster and it gives you 1-2 minutes of combat - you dont need more" Actually there are thousants of situations when extra cap is a difference betwin life and dead. Even at fleet battles, when amarrs shine - if you (on mighty plated abaddon for example) survived first 2 minutes (not get primaried) of combat - you are flying piece of junk with 170k effective hp but 1/5 of your real dps.
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.18 18:15:00 - [912] Originally by: Vrabac Why not use megathron? Why not use titan and dd everyone? There's always a better ship and yes, mega is a damn fine gang ship too (unlike domi). But even megathron has to mwd into optimal right? Not to claim megathron is inferior, but it isnt really any better in such situations AND it's of higher tier than geddon, so it's basically double the price. As for cap issues. Armageddon can maintain it's guns with medium cap booster. It can run large remote rep and shoot guns with medium cap booster for few minutes, which is usually longer than fight will last and with presumption it's running remote rep non stop. Yes it has pg issues with megapulses so it can't fit heavy booster easily, but even like this it does it job very well. Abaddon can shoot 8 mega pulses with 3 heatsinks by using 1 heavy cap booster with no problem whatsoever. These ships don't have cap issues if properly setup. Cap booster is your friend, reps and mwds aren't. That's how it is. And yes, Amarr arent only their battleships, that's what I'm saying. People here hooked on battleships and keep telling me they are bad, they arent (apoc isnt a battleship). REAL problem is ALL OTHER t1 ships, excluding Harbinger and Punisher, are. Also Amarr EW is rediculous, making recons bad as well. After TD nerf it's getting hilarius. Those are real issues, not the battleships, they are fine (apoc isnt a battleship). The Geddon will still have issues if it's required to MWD at all. And this is often necessary due to the fact that as we switch to long range ammo, not only is the overall damage lowered (as with all races), but slowly but surely our crystals become 100% EM damage, which is just fun, and it's own discussion point. But overall I do agree with you that the Armageddon is a good fleet ship, simply with some capacitor issues. (Particularly for relatively new characters like myself.) Plus the Mega has a bit more survivability in my opinion, thanks to it's ability to fit a nice tank along with an MWD and it's blasters. Yes, you have to close in to do damage, but once you're closed you tear to shreds, you can afford to actually use the MWD, and you can fit a respectable tank with this. I don't like that Amarr ships are among the worst in 1v1 situations period, but I really guess that shouldn't be a primary point of argument. Just going to have to train another race if I ever want to do solo roaming. As for your last paragraph, I'm in near-complete agreement. Harbinger suffers from a bit of the same problem you describe with the Megathron though, having to close in to do damage (Pulses below large really don't have that great of a range advantage), and the Punisher is really only good when fitting AC's which I consider a travesty. Heck, Punisher, Maller, and Prophecy can all be quite decent if you just ignore the whole cap use reduction bonus and fit AC's, which is proof alone that there is a severe problem with lasers.
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.18 21:19:00 - [913] Originally by: PeacefullNub I dont understand posts like: "You have cap booster and it gives you 1-2 minutes of combat - you dont need more" Actually there are thousants of situations when extra cap is a difference betwin life and dead. Even at fleet battles, when amarrs shine - if you (on mighty plated abaddon for example) survived first 2 minutes (not get primaried) of combat - you are flying piece of junk with 170k effective hp but 1/5 of your real dps. Nothing like a fight being GOOD enough to actually LAST and realizing your ship is left doing nothing but floating and absorbing damage like a piece of debris.
DroneBay Diva The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.18 23:05:00 - [914] Late Breaking News!! During the Dec 18/2007 patch (or was Dec 19? Depends on where you are from) lasers where fixed! Here is a quote from the patch notes: "Lasers no longer have strange interactions with glass surfaces when bloom is enabled" A sign of things to come? Lets hope so. ______________________________________________________________________________________
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.18 23:15:00 - [915] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 18/12/2007 23:16:48 Edited by: Lord WarATron on 18/12/2007 23:16:03 Originally by: Dillius Archania There any information from anyone having tried out the new nightmare in combat yet? PvE or PvP? I have to admit the changes they made to it seemed like a start. Yes. So good that you get made primary so much that you have to keep warping out and back in again. Also, I can confirm that it is genuinly a viable laser baised battleship. Look at my stats and you will see that I fly a lot of Laser ships, and only with the Nightmare in pvp, do I feel it is designed correctly for sniping (25x modifyer on tach) or closerange (7 mids are good). I just lost one, but I will be getting more, they really are that good! -- Billion Isk Mission
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:20:00 - [916] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 18/12/2007 23:16:48 Edited by: Lord WarATron on 18/12/2007 23:16:03 Originally by: Dillius Archania There any information from anyone having tried out the new nightmare in combat yet? PvE or PvP? I have to admit the changes they made to it seemed like a start. Yes. So good that you get made primary so much that you have to keep warping out and back in again. Also, I can confirm that it is genuinly a viable laser baised battleship. Look at my stats and you will see that I fly a lot of Laser ships, and only with the Nightmare in pvp, do I feel it is designed correctly for sniping (25x modifyer on tach) or closerange (7 mids are good). I just lost one, but I will be getting more, they really are that good! agree The Ship combines Cap Reduction with a Damage bonus and a Tracking Bonus on Lasers. Puts Lasers on a very high Level on her possibilitys to deal Damage, hit close Range and doing that with a fair Cap use. Focus on Lasers and her Abilitys on short or long Range combat comparebal or slightly better(Cap use Fittings as tradeoff) than other Turrets. Lasers are the best kind of Turrets in may aspects(not Short Range and Damage). Make Amarr the Turret Race not for the best DPS or the biggest range but for a very good mix. Look at page 28 for my sugestions how mayby balace the Lasers and the "weaker" Amarr Ships. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.19 05:01:00 - [917] Perhaps some kind of modification along the lines of what was done for the Nightmare and Paladin could be considered? It seems like a successful system, and would likely be easier to implement on a ship by ship basis rather than a broad change to lasers in general. Then again, still not sure how to handle the problem with the Recons.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.19 10:06:00 - [918] Originally by: Dillius Archania Perhaps some kind of modification along the lines of what was done for the Nightmare and Paladin could be considered? It seems like a successful system, and would likely be easier to implement on a ship by ship basis rather than a broad change to lasers in general. Then again, still not sure how to handle the problem with the Recons. You are spot on here. Amarr ships should be modeled after the Nightmare, simply because the nightmare does not have the problems associated with Lasers. -- Billion Isk Mission
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.19 11:14:00 - [919] Originally by: Dillius Archania Perhaps some kind of modification along the lines of what was done for the Nightmare and Paladin could be considered? It seems like a successful system, and would likely be easier to implement on a ship by ship basis rather than a broad change to lasers in general. 1. It is unrealistic to pattern a solution for lasers after elite faction ships. 2. It is unrealistic to pattern a solution for lasers after arguably niche ships (marauders). 3. It is unfair to expect a solution of this type to only be applicable to amarr. Either fix lasers as is already commonly agreed upon, or redesign all races ships completely to accommodate the same common ground. Which sounds more reasonable to you?
DanMck Amarr Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.19 12:16:00 - [920] "help us obi wan you are our only hope...."

General StarScream Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.19 12:26:00 - [921] Lol op you suck, Amarr rocks allready. stop trying to boost your own race, and not looking at whats fair. Amarr has the best dps, at all ranges. after all with blaster you need to be dead close,while amarr ships, can just swich ammo in 1 sec. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.19 12:29:00 - [922] Originally by: insidion Originally by: Dillius Archania Perhaps some kind of modification along the lines of what was done for the Nightmare and Paladin could be considered? It seems like a successful system, and would likely be easier to implement on a ship by ship basis rather than a broad change to lasers in general. 1. It is unrealistic to pattern a solution for lasers after elite faction ships. 2. It is unrealistic to pattern a solution for lasers after arguably niche ships (marauders). 3. It is unfair to expect a solution of this type to only be applicable to amarr. Either fix lasers as is already commonly agreed upon, or redesign all races ships completely to accommodate the same common ground. Which sounds more reasonable to you? What is a ballance? I think that ballance is when you cannot compare 2 weaponsystems in any tearms. For example - missile, turret and drone systems - they have their unique drawbacks and their strong points. And it actualy make game much interesting, when you cannot say witch ship is better - they are compleatly different. I think that lasers cannot be reflections of blasters\rails - or they will allways be compared. Entire weapon system need unique look and role. As an example - true sanshas type. It will give flexability for amarr ships - and today they have none. And i dont think that "It is unfair" to coordinaly chandge worst race, that waited this for 3 years.
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.19 12:40:00 - [923] Edited by: The Djego on 19/12/2007 12:42:17 Originally by: General StarScream Lol op you suck, Amarr rocks allready. stop trying to boost your own race, and not looking at whats fair. Amarr has the best dps, at all ranges. after all with blaster you need to be dead close,while amarr ships, can just swich ammo in 1 sec. CAOD needs you go there don¦t troll here. As you stated Amarr do the best DPS you mean Omen, Maller and Prophecy right? And jes the best EFT DPS can still be low if you hit constant 70-80% Resitance on any Ship right?At all Range you speek of close combat with about -25% Tracking from the start? Remeber that the Termal is mostly on short Range Crystals that are preaty mutch shortrange under the BS Level. You can reload in 1 Second counts in lag, macro like swiftness with the mouse and the lovely reloadbug on unstacked Crystals right? By reading the post instead of making your "Lool op you suck, Amarr Rocks allready." post you might get a clue what this Thread is all about. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Karma Gallente Vortex Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.19 12:45:00 - [924] I always found it rather curious (in a 'oh my, there's a knife protruding out of my chest'-way) that Lasers do more EM than they do Thermal damage... Multifrequency L: 28em / 20therm Microwave L: 16em / 8therm partly I think it fits... but I also have to say that one of the defining things about a laser is that it heats things up. switching so that lasers do thermal damage primarily and em damage secondarily would go a long way towards fixing our damage output. or perhaps make it so the short-range crystals do more therm than EM... and the long range ones are the other way around? (after all, this is the reason most people choose to use hobgoblins, hammerheads and ogres as their drones ;) EITHER WAY... zulupark and hammerhead mentioned in the live dev blog a few days ago that they are looking at amarr. I feel they could've said a bit more ont he subject, but... I'll take what I can get ;)
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.19 12:54:00 - [925] Originally by: Karma EITHER WAY... zulupark and hammerhead mentioned in the live dev blog a few days ago that they are looking at amarr. The devs have said that before though. We're still waiting. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.19 14:38:00 - [926] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Dillius Archania There any information from anyone having tried out the new nightmare in combat yet? PvE or PvP? I have to admit the changes they made to it seemed like a start. Yes. So good that you get made primary so much that you have to keep warping out and back in again. Also, I can confirm that it is genuinly a viable laser baised battleship. Look at my stats and you will see that I fly a lot of Laser ships, and only with the Nightmare in pvp, do I feel it is designed correctly for sniping (25x modifyer on tach) or closerange (7 mids are good). I just lost one, but I will be getting more, they really are that good! Would you say that the Nightmare is better than the Paladin then? If so, something is seriously wrong there... Originally by: The Djego Originally by: General StarScream Lol op you suck, Amarr rocks allready. stop trying to boost your own race, and not looking at whats fair. Amarr has the best dps, at all ranges. after all with blaster you need to be dead close,while amarr ships, can just swich ammo in 1 sec. CAOD needs you go there don¦t troll here. Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Karma EITHER WAY... zulupark and hammerhead mentioned in the live dev blog a few days ago that they are looking at amarr. The devs have said that before though. We're still waiting. It seems they say it regularly to get us to stop asking for Amarr to be brought in line (note, not buffed, just balanced) with other races. Unfortunately, doesn't look like we'll ever get the boost we need from the devs, as it seems no-one on the content team actually flies Amarr, or these problems would be blindingly obvious. Latest Video, Click Here!
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.19 15:08:00 - [927] /SIGNED And I actually read ALL of this as well, I expect credit for this. RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge
Elhina Novae Amarr Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2007.12.19 16:20:00 - [928] Wow the ultimate whiner's thread... Sure I am Amarr =D BOOST AMARR! Somebody set up us the bomb
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.19 16:31:00 - [929] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 19/12/2007 16:31:49 Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Dillius Archania There any information from anyone having tried out the new nightmare in combat yet? PvE or PvP? I have to admit the changes they made to it seemed like a start. Yes. So good that you get made primary so much that you have to keep warping out and back in again. Also, I can confirm that it is genuinly a viable laser baised battleship. Look at my stats and you will see that I fly a lot of Laser ships, and only with the Nightmare in pvp, do I feel it is designed correctly for sniping (25x modifyer on tach) or closerange (7 mids are good). I just lost one, but I will be getting more, they really are that good! Would you say that the Nightmare is better than the Paladin then? If so, something is seriously wrong there... Its not so much what it is, but rather how you use it. Granted, Nightmare has one extra rigslot, but its versitility that you buy with a mare vs paladin. For example.... 7 Midslots Paladin does have the benifit of Double bonus lasers, but one thing it does not have is damage output hitting over 1kdps in a 3 heatsink tachy mare (with Navy Multi's). Mare has roughly 15-20% grid, meaning that you dont need a rcu in it. Anyhow I think Paladin is good, but mare really is to Amarr, what a Mega is to Gallente. -- Billion Isk Mission
myspace spacegirl	Posted - 2007.12.19 16:59:00 - [930] its actually a fact that you could have trained for another race in the time that it took you to type all that stuff lol what i did: i trained GAl then CAl and now MIN seriously its a good idea to atleast spec in 1 other race atleast a little! then if it goes boobs up switch to that! they just nerfed damps so im in mini ships now :) when they nerf them ill switch to gal bs for a while!

Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.19 17:03:00 - [931] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 19/12/2007 17:03:55 Originally by: myspace spacegirl its actually a fact that you could have trained for another race in the time that it took you to type all that stuff lol what i did: i trained GAl then CAl and now MIN seriously its a good idea to atleast spec in 1 other race atleast a little! then if it goes boobs up switch to that! they just nerfed damps so im in mini ships now :) when they nerf them ill switch to gal bs for a while! Nobody disagrees with training for more races. However the argument is that Amarr race is gimped. If I was in a race with 4 bikes, and all the bikes looked the part, with exception of the Amarr bike, which looked like a Segway, then I am sure that the Amarr Segway owner has the right to say "not fit for purpose" and would be quite correct to ask the Tournament organisers for something that can compete with the other racers. -- Billion Isk Mission
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.19 17:06:00 - [932] Originally by: DroneBay Diva Late Breaking News!! During the Dec 18/2007 patch (or was Dec 19? Depends on where you are from) lasers where fixed! Here is a quote from the patch notes: "Lasers no longer have strange interactions with glass surfaces when bloom is enabled" A sign of things to come? Lets hope so. I really am amazed that they could not see the problems with lasers, apart from a obscure reflection on a glass surface! Talk about looking in a mirrior! Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
myspace spacegirl	Posted - 2007.12.19 17:14:00 - [933] id be interested to see how they fair up in context with standard Fleet fittings. This is because the abbadon for instance has a lovely set of resistances meaning its effective hp is insain without any plates on! so why not set them up with ranged guns and well standard alliance fleet fits in context of the necessary DD proof bs. ill not give any specifics so as not to give away any private standard setups but im sure someone will provide some: make sure to have: full rack of highest damage guns MWD and SB + TC in mids plates and minimal tank with whatever damage mods you can squeeze on eg 2-3 then add rigs into the equation!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.19 18:49:00 - [934] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 19/12/2007 18:49:38 Originally by: myspace spacegirl id be interested to see how they fair up in context with standard Fleet fittings. This is because the abbadon for instance has a lovely set of resistances meaning its effective hp is insain without any plates on! so why not set them up with ranged guns and well standard alliance fleet fits in context of the necessary DD proof bs. ill not give any specifics so as not to give away any private standard setups but im sure someone will provide some: make sure to have: full rack of highest damage guns MWD and SB + TC in mids plates and minimal tank with whatever damage mods you can squeeze on eg 2-3 then add rigs into the equation! Except the Abaddon cannot do this. The Abaddon throws away 2-3 slots in fitting mods, and requires a cap booster, thats another thrown away slot. In addition, poor range of lasers means that 3 t2 tracking mods are needed to acheive 160km optimal for snipers. Then you relise that other races BS's could simply emulate the abaddon's bonus by putting in a EANM insted of a fiting mod, so the whole thing about Amarr being good is a false economy. The Sansha Laser ships on the other hand, is the Perfect Amarr ship and quality pvpers are now starting to use them. They really are how Amarr should be balanced - no need for crappy fitting mods etc. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
MONEY MIKE	Posted - 2007.12.19 19:08:00 - [935] People need to realize that the energy weapon rigs are there to help balance the amarr cap problems. the are the ever popular cap rigs as well as the rig that makes energy weapons use 15% less cap. Face it guys using regular or named mods will not even out the weapon/cap problem. Use your heads and use rig slots to your advantage. They work perfectly for me
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2007.12.19 19:16:00 - [936] Originally by: MONEY MIKE People need to realize that the energy weapon rigs are there to help balance the amarr cap problems. the are the ever popular cap rigs as well as the rig that makes energy weapons use 15% less cap. Face it guys using regular or named mods will not even out the weapon/cap problem. Use your heads and use rig slots to your advantage. They work perfectly for me Energy weapon rigs suck. The penalty is less power grid. Less grid = having to downsize tank or guns. Not the best option.
Karma Gallente Vortex Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.19 19:21:00 - [937] Originally by: MONEY MIKE People need to realize that the energy weapon rigs are there to help balance the amarr cap problems. the are the ever popular cap rigs as well as the rig that makes energy weapons use 15% less cap. Face it guys using regular or named mods will not even out the weapon/cap problem. Use your heads and use rig slots to your advantage. They work perfectly for me to my admittedly untrained eye there is no logic in that statement... if I have to use rigs to get the same kind of usability that another race's ships have without using rigs... then err... well... that's the very definition of gimped, is it not? or put another way: while I - being a Gallente flying amarr ships - equip my Amarr ship with rigs that reduce the amount of cap my guns do, a pilot flying minmattar, caldari or gallente will equip a rig that further increase their guns damage-output, or range or tracking. and after i've said that, I can also add that my guns do primarily EM damage and have horrible tracking (even after the buff), so I do even less damage than those other pilots do. cardinal failure.
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.19 19:31:00 - [938] Originally by: Jonny JoJo The Sansha Laser ships on the other hand, is the Perfect Amarr ship and quality pvpers are now starting to use them. They really are how Amarr should be balanced - no need for crappy fitting mods etc. Now it's clear that you're not seeking a balance whatsoever, or are willing to accept perfectly viable solutions that are much easier to implement that already address majority of your 'concerns'. How about everyone gets the same 4 slots+100% damage+everything approach too? Or why not have caldari have 1 launcher with say 600% damage bonus? And they should have 14 mid slots so they can fit a proper shield tank AND util/ewar mods too. Or minmatar with 4 turrets with a 100% speed bonus and the ranges of amarr? And don't forget gallente, they should get a 100% damage bonus AND massively increased drone bays over everyone else since they're supposed to be the 'drone race'. Oh yeah, and they should get the range of amarr too. I guess it doesn't matter so long as either 1. everyone can fit the exact same mods in the exact same way, have the exact same bonuses let alone stats and be so homogenized into a smoking pile of crap that you can't tell who is who anymore. OR 2. amarr absorbs the abilities of faction level ships by default, lasers do all four damage types, do more damage, don't use cap, get more mids, more cap, more cap recharge, a tracking bonus, damage bonus, snipe better than anyone else, do better up close than anyone else, and get all the benefits of the other races with none of the drawbacks. That'd be fair right?
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.19 19:35:00 - [939] Originally by: MONEY MIKE People need to realize that the energy weapon rigs are there to help balance the amarr cap problems. the are the ever popular cap rigs as well as the rig that makes energy weapons use 15% less cap. Face it guys using regular or named mods will not even out the weapon/cap problem. Use your heads and use rig slots to your advantage. They work perfectly for me I realize this is what the devs somewhat had in mind when they brought in rigs, thinking that it would help even out the playing field, but it's an insulting method that only increases the gap even further. While some ships are using rigs to augment their already good builds, broken ships or problematic issues such as lasers are NOT fixed by using rigs. Using rigs or skills to counter 'pre nerfed' issues such as laser cap usage is ridiculous to say the least, and does not make the core problem simply disappear.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.19 19:50:00 - [940] Originally by: insidion Originally by: Jonny JoJo The Sansha Laser ships on the other hand, is the Perfect Amarr ship and quality pvpers are now starting to use them. They really are how Amarr should be balanced - no need for crappy fitting mods etc. Now it's clear that you're not seeking a balance whatsoever, or are willing to accept perfectly viable solutions that are much easier to implement that already address majority of your 'concerns'. How about everyone gets the same 4 slots+100% damage+everything approach too? Or why not have caldari have 1 launcher with say 600% damage bonus? And they should have 14 mid slots so they can fit a proper shield tank AND util/ewar mods too. Or minmatar with 4 turrets with a 100% speed bonus and the ranges of amarr? And don't forget gallente, they should get a 100% damage bonus AND massively increased drone bays over everyone else since they're supposed to be the 'drone race'. Oh yeah, and they should get the range of amarr too. I guess it doesn't matter so long as either 1. everyone can fit the exact same mods in the exact same way, have the exact same bonuses let alone stats and be so homogenized into a smoking pile of crap that you can't tell who is who anymore. OR 2. amarr absorbs the abilities of faction level ships by default, lasers do all four damage types, do more damage, don't use cap, get more mids, more cap, more cap recharge, a tracking bonus, damage bonus, snipe better than anyone else, do better up close than anyone else, and get all the benefits of the other races with none of the drawbacks. That'd be fair right? Nope. You misunderstand. Sansha ships work correctly with lasers. Amarr ships do not. This is because Amarr ships were designed with pre-2005 lasers in mind. Sansha Ships are designed with 2007 lasers in mind. Whats the difference? Well, pre-2005 lasers were easy to fit, and were not crippling as they currently are. Then they overnerfed lasers and Even Amarr ships struggle to fit them. Look at the Paladin - it suffers from the Same crippling powergrid issue as the Abaddon. However, Sansha nightmare has 15-20% more grid, thus can fit a full rack of tach + mwd/tank etc with no problems. Whoever designed the Sansha ships made them with 2007 in mind, to make sure that Sansha Ships are competitive in the real world, and whoever designed Amarr probebly never flown them. Therefore most of the problems Amarr have do not effecct Sansha. The exception is the paladin which lacks grid as I think a CCP dev was being a bit lazy when designing the Paladin. So there are two things CCP can do - Fix Amarr to work in 2008, or fix lasers. To be honest, the end result is the same - Competitive ships, and so far, the only competitive Laser ships are sansha, as the rest are 3rd class offerings when compared to other races. I dont care how the exact mechanics are - I want Competitivve laser ships at competitive pricecs. Sansha have competitive lasers ships at crazy prices. Amarr have crap ships at reasonable pricecs. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)

The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.19 19:52:00 - [941] Edited by: The Djego on 19/12/2007 19:56:30 Originally by: myspace spacegirl id be interested to see how they fair up in context with standard Fleet fittings. This is because the abbadon for instance has a lovely set of resistances meaning its effective hp is insain without any plates on! so why not set them up with ranged guns and well standard alliance fleet fits in context of the necessary DD proof bs. ill not give any specifics so as not to give away any private standard setups but im sure someone will provide some: make sure to have: full rack of highest damage guns MWD and SB + TC in mids plates and minimal tank with whatever damage mods you can squeeze on eg 2-3 then add rigs into the equation! Abbadon can be a Fleet Sniper, but you have no chance to fit a MWD if you don¦t want to relay at 100% on Cap Charges. Also if you remove a Tracking Comp in the Meds for the MWD you have to replace a Heat Sink with a Tracking Enhancer and will have less Range. Also you would need a Powergrid Rig or Replace the CPR with a Powerdiagnostic to get the Grid for the MWD. High: 7 Tachs II, Medium Remote Armor Repper(Large one with AWU 5) Meds: 2x Tracking Comp II, Sensor Booster II, Heavy Cap Booster II Lows: 2x Heat Sinks II, Signal Ampifier II, Tracking Enhancer II, Damage Controll II, RCU II, CPR II Rigs: Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Energy Dicharge Elutruation I(-15% Cap use for Lasers) Warning EFT Spoiler: 73k effective HP, 187 km Lock Range, 168km Optimal + 24km Falloff, 410 DPS, 3k Alpha. Fitting is Cap stable with the Cap Booster and runs about 3 Minutes without. But afterall you need extrem high Skills yust for the Fitting and for the Range and is expensive. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.19 20:08:00 - [942] Originally by: insidion Originally by: Jonny JoJo The Sansha Laser ships on the other hand, is the Perfect Amarr ship and quality pvpers are now starting to use them. They really are how Amarr should be balanced - no need for crappy fitting mods etc. Now it's clear that you're not seeking a balance whatsoever, or are willing to accept perfectly viable solutions that are much easier to implement that already address majority of your 'concerns'. How about everyone gets the same 4 slots+100% damage+everything approach too? Or why not have caldari have 1 launcher with say 600% damage bonus? And they should have 14 mid slots so they can fit a proper shield tank AND util/ewar mods too. Or minmatar with 4 turrets with a 100% speed bonus and the ranges of amarr? And don't forget gallente, they should get a 100% damage bonus AND massively increased drone bays over everyone else since they're supposed to be the 'drone race'. Oh yeah, and they should get the range of amarr too. I guess it doesn't matter so long as either 1. everyone can fit the exact same mods in the exact same way, have the exact same bonuses let alone stats and be so homogenized into a smoking pile of crap that you can't tell who is who anymore. OR 2. amarr absorbs the abilities of faction level ships by default, lasers do all four damage types, do more damage, don't use cap, get more mids, more cap, more cap recharge, a tracking bonus, damage bonus, snipe better than anyone else, do better up close than anyone else, and get all the benefits of the other races with none of the drawbacks. That'd be fair right? I like Idee 2. For real, I think this would prevent the Projektiel Fittings and give the Cap use Bonus(I would love to see this Wreckings ). On the other Hand it would reduce the cost of Fitting(less Weapons) and make 1-2 more High Shots avaidabe. This is a unfair advantage to other Races i can agree. Little side note I posted my Idee of a change on Page 28. It¦s not that powerfull and mostly focus on boosting the "bad" Ships without giving the "good" Ship a big advantage. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Drago Katsov Caldari Maelstrom Crew Mournival Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.19 20:09:00 - [943] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Nope. You misunderstand. Sansha ships work correctly with lasers. Amarr ships do not. This is because Amarr ships were designed with pre-2005 lasers in mind. Sansha Ships are designed with 2007 lasers in mind. Whats the difference? Well, pre-2005 lasers were easy to fit, and were not crippling as they currently are. Then they overnerfed lasers and Even Amarr ships struggle to fit them. Look at the Paladin - it suffers from the Same crippling powergrid issue as the Abaddon. However, Sansha nightmare has 15-20% more grid, thus can fit a full rack of tach + mwd/tank etc with no problems. Whoever designed the Sansha ships made them with 2007 in mind, to make sure that Sansha Ships are competitive in the real world, and whoever designed Amarr probebly never flown them. Therefore most of the problems Amarr have do not effecct Sansha. The exception is the paladin which lacks grid as I think a CCP dev was being a bit lazy when designing the Paladin. So there are two things CCP can do - Fix Amarr to work in 2008, or fix lasers. To be honest, the end result is the same - Competitive ships, and so far, the only competitive Laser ships are sansha, as the rest are 3rd class offerings when compared to other races. I dont care how the exact mechanics are - I want Competitivve laser ships at competitive pricecs. Sansha have competitive lasers ships at crazy prices. Amarr have crap ships at reasonable pricecs. You miss understand to or just exaggerated which isn't suprising considering your other topics. Theres laser ships that work great already, its certain ships and modules that need adressing. Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Karma EITHER WAY... zulupark and hammerhead mentioned in the live dev blog a few days ago that they are looking at amarr. The devs have said that before though. We're still waiting. It seems they say it regularly to get us to stop asking for Amarr to be brought in line (note, not buffed, just balanced) with other races. Unfortunately, doesn't look like we'll ever get the boost we need from the devs, as it seems no-one on the content team actually flies Amarr, or these problems would be blindingly obvious. Could of fooled me with those "boost" ideas you posted a few pages back.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.19 21:29:00 - [944] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 19/12/2007 21:37:19 Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 19/12/2007 21:31:50 Originally by: Drago Katsov Originally by: Jonny JoJo Nope. You misunderstand. Sansha ships work correctly with lasers. Amarr ships do not. This is because Amarr ships were designed with pre-2005 lasers in mind. Sansha Ships are designed with 2007 lasers in mind. Whats the difference? Well, pre-2005 lasers were easy to fit, and were not crippling as they currently are. Then they overnerfed lasers and Even Amarr ships struggle to fit them. Look at the Paladin - it suffers from the Same crippling powergrid issue as the Abaddon. However, Sansha nightmare has 15-20% more grid, thus can fit a full rack of tach + mwd/tank etc with no problems. Whoever designed the Sansha ships made them with 2007 in mind, to make sure that Sansha Ships are competitive in the real world, and whoever designed Amarr probebly never flown them. Therefore most of the problems Amarr have do not effecct Sansha. The exception is the paladin which lacks grid as I think a CCP dev was being a bit lazy when designing the Paladin. So there are two things CCP can do - Fix Amarr to work in 2008, or fix lasers. To be honest, the end result is the same - Competitive ships, and so far, the only competitive Laser ships are sansha, as the rest are 3rd class offerings when compared to other races. I dont care how the exact mechanics are - I want Competitivve laser ships at competitive pricecs. Sansha have competitive lasers ships at crazy prices. Amarr have crap ships at reasonable pricecs. You miss understand to or just exaggerated which isn't suprising considering your other topics. Theres laser ships that work great already, its certain ships and modules that need adressing. Erm - Thats what I have been saying for a long time. CCP can either fix the modules, or they can Fix the ships to be balanced with the modules. Mightmare is balanced with lasers, due to its slot layout and bonus's. Abaddon is not. No disagreement that lazors suck - but nightmare is the only viable laser battleship in the game currently - the rest of them are 3rd rate when compared to other races. Say, you do fly nightmares dont you? All the posters in this thread who fly nightmairs or claim to do so all agree that its a good laser ship. If CCP did something right with Nightmare, and something wrong with Amarr, then surely they need to work out the best way forward. I aam not whining for the sake of whining - otherwise I would not be stating that a laser ship such as Nightmare is good. Lets be perfectly honest here - the recipie of pre2005 layouts on Amarr is broken today, given massive laser nerfs and massive fitting increases (to stop scorpions from using lasers). We both know that. It is 2007 and we finally have a genuine redesign of a laser ship that actually works in the real world enviroment. So is your complaint that the Nightmare is not balanced? Or is it that you cannot stant to see Amarr Laserships become viable again? You are aware that for some crazy reason, the only problem devs see with lasers is, and I quote patch notes ""Lasers no longer have strange interactions with glass surfaces when bloom is enabled" Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Karma Gallente Vortex Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.19 21:33:00 - [945] Originally by: Jonny JoJo No disagreement that lazors suck - but nightmare is the only viable laser battleship in the game currently - the rest of them are 3rd rate when compared to other races. Say, you do fly nightmares dont you? All the posters in this thread who fly nightmairs or claim to do so all agree that its a good laser ship. If CCP did something right with Nightmare, and something wrong with Amarr, then surely they need to work out the best way forward. I just had a horrible premonition... I saw CCP learning of this 'workable lazor ship' and promptly proceeded to rebalance it to be more in line with their view of Amarr ships.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.19 21:44:00 - [946] Originally by: Karma Originally by: Jonny JoJo No disagreement that lazors suck - but nightmare is the only viable laser battleship in the game currently - the rest of them are 3rd rate when compared to other races. Say, you do fly nightmares dont you? All the posters in this thread who fly nightmairs or claim to do so all agree that its a good laser ship. If CCP did something right with Nightmare, and something wrong with Amarr, then surely they need to work out the best way forward. I just had a horrible premonition... I saw CCP learning of this 'workable lazor ship' and promptly proceeded to rebalance it to be more in line with their view of Amarr ships. nahh, its that Amarr Dev is mean at Christmas, and the Caldari/Sansha Dev is all nice and Happy. After all, how could the Nightmare, a Sansha ship, have 15-20% more powergrid and thus need no fitting modes, while the paladin, of simaler design and despite being "high powergrid Amarr", is crippled by lack of free grid when fitting tach's? This is ironic since sansha needs less grid due to shield tanking. LoL at Amarr! Its a conspiracy I tell ya! Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Drago Katsov Caldari Maelstrom Crew Mournival Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.19 22:14:00 - [947] Edited by: Drago Katsov on 19/12/2007 22:15:03 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Erm - Thats what I have been saying for a long time. CCP can either fix the modules, or they can Fix the ships to be balanced with the modules. Mightmare is balanced with lasers, due to its slot layout and bonus's. Abaddon is not. No disagreement that lazors suck - but nightmare is the only viable laser battleship in the game currently - the rest of them are 3rd rate when compared to other races. Say, you do fly nightmares dont you? All the posters in this thread who fly nightmairs or claim to do so all agree that its a good laser ship. If CCP did something right with Nightmare, and something wrong with Amarr, then surely they need to work out the best way forward. I aam not whining for the sake of whining - otherwise I would not be stating that a laser ship such as Nightmare is good. Lets be perfectly honest here - the recipie of pre2005 layouts on Amarr is broken today, given massive laser nerfs and massive fitting increases (to stop scorpions from using lasers). We both know that. It is 2007 and we finally have a genuine redesign of a laser ship that actually works in the real world enviroment. So is your complaint that the Nightmare is not balanced? Or is it that you cannot stant to see Amarr Laserships become viable again? You are aware that for some crazy reason, the only problem devs see with lasers is, and I quote patch notes ""Lasers no longer have strange interactions with glass surfaces when bloom is enabled" Way to go putting words in peoples mouths, I never said a thing about the Nightmare. Geddon and Abaddon a fine laser ships, not my problem you don't like them or just can't use them right so want them redesigned into Nightmare style ships. Everyone always speaks like the sky is falling on the whole race, so want it all boosting ignoring the good ships or completely redesigning like the nightmare sansha model (that Goum' has already posted a topic on months ago in the development section). Theres pleanty you can do to the ship hulls, modules and ammo's that can not only help amarr's poor ships but help balance EVE in general.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.19 22:33:00 - [948] Originally by: Drago Katsov Edited by: Drago Katsov on 19/12/2007 22:15:03 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Erm - Thats what I have been saying for a long time. CCP can either fix the modules, or they can Fix the ships to be balanced with the modules. Mightmare is balanced with lasers, due to its slot layout and bonus's. Abaddon is not. No disagreement that lazors suck - but nightmare is the only viable laser battleship in the game currently - the rest of them are 3rd rate when compared to other races. Say, you do fly nightmares dont you? All the posters in this thread who fly nightmairs or claim to do so all agree that its a good laser ship. If CCP did something right with Nightmare, and something wrong with Amarr, then surely they need to work out the best way forward. I aam not whining for the sake of whining - otherwise I would not be stating that a laser ship such as Nightmare is good. Lets be perfectly honest here - the recipie of pre2005 layouts on Amarr is broken today, given massive laser nerfs and massive fitting increases (to stop scorpions from using lasers). We both know that. It is 2007 and we finally have a genuine redesign of a laser ship that actually works in the real world enviroment. So is your complaint that the Nightmare is not balanced? Or is it that you cannot stant to see Amarr Laserships become viable again? You are aware that for some crazy reason, the only problem devs see with lasers is, and I quote patch notes ""Lasers no longer have strange interactions with glass surfaces when bloom is enabled" Way to go putting words in peoples mouths, I never said a thing about the Nightmare. Geddon and Abaddon a fine laser ships, not my problem you don't like them or just can't use them right so want them redesigned into Nightmare style ships. Everyone always speaks like the sky is falling on the whole race, so want it all boosting ignoring the good ships or completely redesigning like the nightmare sansha model (that Goum' has already posted a topic on months ago in the development section). Theres pleanty you can do to the ship hulls, modules and ammo's that can not only help amarr's poor ships but help balance EVE in general. So whats the point of your post? My point was we have a model that is broken and a model that works, and we should disuss seriously about moving amarr to a model that works. You are saying that the current model works, "Abaddon, geddon are fine lazor ships" then you say that "pleanty you can do to the ship hulls, modules and ammo's" So what is it? Do you beleive Amarr need to be rebalanced for 2008? Or do you think that the old 2004/5 setups are fine 4 years on? You perceive that I want them to be redesigned into Sansha styles. I am simply stating a fact - Either Fix the damm modules to make Amarr competitive - Or re-model Amarr to work with these obviously broken modules. You are trying to talk a spesific without giving a solution. I am saying that we have a direction that works, so either do what works or do something that will acheive the same objective of having Amarr balanced with other races. It is Obvious that the Amarr Dev does not fly Amarr, why else would a simaler ship such as Nightmare have 15-20% more powergrid than a paladin when they both have simaler methodology and sansha uses low powergrid shield tank, and Paladin uses high powergrid mods. No other racec in eve has crippling fitting issues such as amarr and the irony is that it was probebly a Gallente Dev that redesigned the Sansha Battleship to be balanced in 2008 PvP and not a Amarr Dev. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Drago Katsov Caldari Maelstrom Crew Mournival Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.19 23:44:00 - [949] Originally by: Jonny JoJo So whats the point of your post? My point was we have a model that is broken and a model that works, and we should disuss seriously about moving amarr to a model that works. You are saying that the current model works, "Abaddon, geddon are fine lazor ships" then you say that "pleanty you can do to the ship hulls, modules and ammo's" So what is it? Do you beleive Amarr need to be rebalanced for 2008? Or do you think that the old 2004/5 setups are fine 4 years on? You perceive that I want them to be redesigned into Sansha styles. I am simply stating a fact - Either Fix the damm modules to make Amarr competitive - Or re-model Amarr to work with these obviously broken modules. You are trying to talk a spesific without giving a solution. I am saying that we have a direction that works, so either do what works or do something that will acheive the same objective of having Amarr balanced with other races. It is Obvious that the Amarr Dev does not fly Amarr, why else would a simaler ship such as Nightmare have 15-20% more powergrid than a paladin when they both have simaler methodology and sansha uses low powergrid shield tank, and Paladin uses high powergrid mods. No other racec in eve has crippling fitting issues such as amarr and the irony is that it was probebly a Gallente Dev that redesigned the Sansha Battleship to be balanced in 2008 PvP and not a Amarr Dev. Do you just glance over posts and instantly reply without thinking? My point is the design isn't broken, the implementation in SOME ships is, like the maller, omen and prophecy and NOT BROKEN in certain ships like Geddon and Abaddon. Fix the implementation on that ship not change the design of the whole race or introduce things like "exp crystals" that would just boost everything no matter how good/bad it is.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.20 00:23:00 - [950] Originally by: Drago Katsov Originally by: Jonny JoJo So whats the point of your post? My point was we have a model that is broken and a model that works, and we should disuss seriously about moving amarr to a model that works. You are saying that the current model works, "Abaddon, geddon are fine lazor ships" then you say that "pleanty you can do to the ship hulls, modules and ammo's" So what is it? Do you beleive Amarr need to be rebalanced for 2008? Or do you think that the old 2004/5 setups are fine 4 years on? You perceive that I want them to be redesigned into Sansha styles. I am simply stating a fact - Either Fix the damm modules to make Amarr competitive - Or re-model Amarr to work with these obviously broken modules. You are trying to talk a spesific without giving a solution. I am saying that we have a direction that works, so either do what works or do something that will acheive the same objective of having Amarr balanced with other races. It is Obvious that the Amarr Dev does not fly Amarr, why else would a simaler ship such as Nightmare have 15-20% more powergrid than a paladin when they both have simaler methodology and sansha uses low powergrid shield tank, and Paladin uses high powergrid mods. No other racec in eve has crippling fitting issues such as amarr and the irony is that it was probebly a Gallente Dev that redesigned the Sansha Battleship to be balanced in 2008 PvP and not a Amarr Dev. Do you just glance over posts and instantly reply without thinking? My point is the design isn't broken, the implementation in SOME ships is, like the maller, omen and prophecy and NOT BROKEN in certain ships like Geddon and Abaddon. Fix the implementation on that ship not change the design of the whole race or introduce things like "exp crystals" that would just boost everything no matter how good/bad it is. On the subject of glancing without reading posts, what exactly is your point? I have said thoughout thiss entire thread that Amarr need to be rebalanced to be Competitive. Be it lasers, be it slots, be it fitting or be it Sansha/t2 BS style Since when have I ever said stuff like explosive crystals? This is a thread. We discuss things to balance Amarr. Hope you learned someting today, as that is what threads about "Amarr" are about! The fact is - Amarr seriously need to be rebalanced and this will change a lot of things. For example, if Amarr ships had an extra 20% powergrid, then they no longer need 2-3 slots for fitting mods on fleet setups, and this could go towards damage mods or cap recharge mods. Again, the Sansha/Mauroder concept is a intresting one and one that should seriously be added to the list of Amarr improvements already mentione din this thread. I have yet to find a single Nightmare pvp pilot who says it does not perform in the way a Amarr ship should do, when it comes to lasers. For crying out loud, it even has more 15-20% more grid than the paladin, which is another laser ship with the same concept, and there is no logic to this unless the devs are still working of 2005 pre-fitting nerf setups. However, what you are doing is automatically Excluding anything that does not fit your picture of a pre2005 Amarr ship. Tell me, when lasers got nerfed to using crazy powergrid, how much of a proportional boost did Amarr get to fit them? Just answering that question will tell you the problems many people face, and just because we got used to a pre-2005 Amarr, does not mean that we should close our minds to making them viable and competitive in 2008. So what exactly is your point? All today Amarr setups were viable pre-laser fitting nerf, and are very difficult to use in the current climate. Sansha, on the other hand, was probebly designed by the Gallente dev so it had none of the problems Amarr ships have currently (decent Damage, no need for fitting mods, plenty mids etc etc) Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)

insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.20 00:54:00 - [951] Originally by: Jonny JoJo No disagreement that lazors suck - but nightmare is the only viable laser battleship in the game currently - the rest of them are 3rd rate when compared to other races. Nightmare is FAR from the only viable laser battleship. That's like saying the rattlesnake or CNR are the only remotely tolerable Caldari ships. Be realistic. Originally by: Jonny JoJo You perceive that I want them to be redesigned into Sansha styles. I am simply stating a fact - Either Fix the damm modules to make Amarr competitive - Or re-model Amarr to work with these obviously broken modules. Why do you keep demanding that the whole race needs adjusting? Fixing lasers as I have repeatedly stated is a fair solution on every level and addresses almost every single one of your concerns. You keep pointing out that lasers were 'overnerfed' (to which I agree) but then why do you not find the idea of undoing that very mistake appealing? I don't dispute that even after fixing lasers there would be further minutia to argue, but fixing them would be a MASSIVE step in the right direction. Originally by: Jonny JoJo So is your complaint that the Nightmare is not balanced? Or is it that you cannot stant to see Amarr Laserships become viable again? TBH, it's a nice idea but the only thing keeping it balanced is the price tag and the sheer rarity of them. Drop the tinfoil hattery. I proudly fly amarr (all four races actually), and I have campaigned for a balanced solution since before this thread. Originally by: Drago Katsov Everyone always speaks like the sky is falling on the whole race, so want it all boosting ignoring the good ships or completely redesigning like the nightmare sansha model (that Goum' has already posted a topic on months ago in the development section). Theres pleanty you can do to the ship hulls, modules and ammo's that can not only help amarr's poor ships but help balance EVE in general. Perfectly stated. Once again people aren't disagreeing with you that something needs to be done to BALANCE amarr, but people are disagreeing with your proposed solution which is CLEARLY overpowered. Please stop trying to undermine the simple request for balance with absurd demands that are obviously undeserved and unwarranted. There is nothing wrong with the amarr race as a whole, just some very specific issues which really aren't that hard to address.
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.20 01:14:00 - [952] From what I have experienced and gathered of info it seems the Abaddon is the absolute worst tier 3 BS out there. Harshest fittingrequirements, lowest effective damageoutput and also highest capconsumption compared to total capsize and rechargerate. Can somebody please prove me wrong on that one? I just wonder how people can actually call it a "well working shipdesign" when it can't shoot and rep at the same time... Heck, it can't even shoot very lone either with beams fitted. And now people normally say "Fit more caprechargers or a a capbooster" This is when I say "Gimped setup. It's a prenerfed ship..." ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Marn Prestoc Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.12.20 02:53:00 - [953] I do not agree with the "boost pg by 20% for beams because X ship has it", that would leave very little pg costraints for pulse setups, but of course they can be limited by CPU. The thing is, lasers were given high cap and fitting to prevent other races using them, then they've been gradually nerfed so really theres no reason to reduce the pg of beams slightly as they're arn't "uber" like they once were. If they arn't "uber" and "overpowered" then other races just won't use them over there racial weapons, so the high fitting constraint doesn't need to be there. Originally by: SkyCrane From what I have experienced and gathered of info it seems the Abaddon is the absolute worst tier 3 BS out there. Harshest fittingrequirements, lowest effective damageoutput and also highest capconsumption compared to total capsize and rechargerate. Can somebody please prove me wrong on that one? I just wonder how people can actually call it a "well working shipdesign" when it can't shoot and rep at the same time... Heck, it can't even shoot very lone either with beams fitted. And now people normally say "Fit more caprechargers or a a capbooster" This is when I say "Gimped setup. It's a prenerfed ship..." Fit plates not rep's, your Amarr and get an resistance bonus, not gallente with a rep bonus. There design is to last as long as possible in large gangs where HP tanking is best, then you have low-cap or no-cap options of repairing each other (amarr logistics or repair drones) that receive the benifit from the resistance bonus where a repair bonus does not help remote repping. HP tanking is viable in PvP, its clearly better than repair tanking when your taking 3000 dps or more due to self repairing not having time to repair more HP than a plated tank would of given. -
Kardim Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.20 03:11:00 - [954] signed. thank you, best post ive seen on ammar, ive been talking this for few years now since the overnerf. I would have posted sooner but have been protesting amarr only way i think ccp will really listen, w/ my dollars. after amarr gets fixed ill actually bring back my alt accnts and even keep my main on for more than 1 month at a time (:
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.20 05:56:00 - [955] Edited by: PeacefullNub on 20/12/2007 05:59:56 As you may remember - devs nerfed nightmares high slots (-2) and med+low (-2) before giving +100% damage boost. And we have now nightmare, not NIGHTMARE with 4 turrets +100%damage and 4 missiles or 4 neitralizers, with plated armor tank and 170k effective hp - devs actually rebalanced it before boosting. So why cant they rebalance amarr ships before giving faction +100% damage bonus to them? Abaddon for example - give him only 5(or even only 4) high slots and 4 turrets - 4 lasers with+100% damage and 1 utility slot. This gives him allmost no advantage, exept better fittings for lasers and 1\2 cap usage. And no Projektiles\hybrids setups from now. In the end we will see good ship and no "LaserRavens" like in 2004 Or apoc for example - give him 6 high slots and 3 turrets - it nerfs his max dps by 25% . But at least 3 free utility slots allow to use apoc as support BS in combat. And it finaly gives him a role. There are so many ways to use sansha\marader type without owerpowering ships and actually rebalancing them, but you dont even try to think about them. "OMG it makes them owerpowered! No way, just fix damn lasers damage\tracking\cap, and remove cap usage bonus, and fix pg reqs for tachs etc."
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 06:06:00 - [956] Originally by: Marn Prestoc I do not agree with the "boost pg by 20% for beams because X ship has it", that would leave very little pg costraints for pulse setups, but of course they can be limited by CPU. The thing is, lasers were given high cap and fitting to prevent other races using them, then they've been gradually nerfed so really theres no reason to reduce the pg of beams slightly as they're arn't "uber" like they once were. If they arn't "uber" and "overpowered" then other races just won't use them over there racial weapons, so the high fitting constraint doesn't need to be there. Originally by: SkyCrane From what I have experienced and gathered of info it seems the Abaddon is the absolute worst tier 3 BS out there. Harshest fittingrequirements, lowest effective damageoutput and also highest capconsumption compared to total capsize and rechargerate. Can somebody please prove me wrong on that one? I just wonder how people can actually call it a "well working shipdesign" when it can't shoot and rep at the same time... Heck, it can't even shoot very lone either with beams fitted. And now people normally say "Fit more caprechargers or a a capbooster" This is when I say "Gimped setup. It's a prenerfed ship..." Fit plates not rep's, your Amarr and get an resistance bonus, not gallente with a rep bonus. There design is to last as long as possible in large gangs where HP tanking is best, then you have low-cap or no-cap options of repairing each other (amarr logistics or repair drones) that receive the benifit from the resistance bonus where a repair bonus does not help remote repping. HP tanking is viable in PvP, its clearly better than repair tanking when your taking 3000 dps or more due to self repairing not having time to repair more HP than a plated tank would of given. Poast Spreadsheet.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.20 09:27:00 - [957] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 20/12/2007 09:27:38 Originally by: insidion Originally by: Jonny JoJo You perceive that I want them to be redesigned into Sansha styles. I am simply stating a fact - Either Fix the damm modules to make Amarr competitive - Or re-model Amarr to work with these obviously broken modules. Why do you keep demanding that the whole race needs adjusting? Fixing lasers as I have repeatedly stated is a fair solution on every level and addresses almost every single one of your concerns. You keep pointing out that lasers were 'overnerfed' (to which I agree) but then why do you not find the idea of undoing that very mistake appealing? I don't dispute that even after fixing lasers there would be further minutia to argue, but fixing them would be a MASSIVE step in the right direction. If you real all my posts in this thread, it was all regarding problems ith laserships. When CCP did release a lasership that worked well (i.e nightmare) I have been perfectly honest in saying so. Just appply common sense here - Paladin and Nightmare are simaler concepts, except paladin needs higher PG tank as Nightmare is Shield tanked. Therefore one would think the Paladin would have more powergrid. Except that whoever Designed the nightmare designed it with 2008 in mind, and it has 15-20% more powergrid than the Paladin. Whoever designed the paladin obviosly does not fly Amarr, since the nightmare needs no fitting mods unlike the paladin. The Dev who designed teh nightmare made it able to adapt in 2008, and the guy who made the paladin was reading off his pre-2005 design document. And thats all that I have ever said - Amarr laserships need to be rebalanced to be competitive in 2008 - and there are hundreads of different ideas in this thread on how to do so. The Nightmare obviously is balanced currently, so that is a good starting point. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 10:12:00 - [958] Actually whomever designed the nightmare didnt design with 2008 in mind because they didnt actually change the powergrid at all and instead just boosted the CPU to high heaven. And no, not all laser ships have issues. Pulse Battleships pretty much have no issues[except which might be caused by the huge buff to siege ravens]
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.20 11:03:00 - [959] Edited by: The Djego on 20/12/2007 11:03:48 Gumindong can you link your former Posts about Amarr Ships with the rebalance Idees. Would be a good adition in this topic. Gedon and Abaddon are not bad ship! Please stop complaining they are. With some Laser changes it¦s more like they get a huge buff and become overpowert. Apoc on the other hand need some love for shure. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 11:25:00 - [960] No need, they've been read. They could porbably aslo go for another looking over, and im not being payed to put much effort into it

Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.20 15:25:00 - [961] There have been tons of arguments, many greats ones by Goumindong, and we now have a 33 page thread just chock FULL of ideas, and yet still no response, still nothing from the Devs. At this point, you'd think they'd start to think, "Hey, these guys have been complaining non-stop. I wonder if there's a reason for that?" The recent dev blog (which I have not listened to but skimmed the transcript) was apparently a joke at least in terms of Amarrian balance issues.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.20 16:09:00 - [962] 982 Replies, 31891 views. CCP might want to hurry up that oomph. This has been delayed for too long. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Marn Prestoc Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.20 16:19:00 - [963] Originally by: Goumindong Poast Spreadsheet. Poasted - Shows how different hardeners affect each ship/weapon/ammo using all 3 HP levels of a battleship (used megathrons HP values with 2x RT 1600 and 3 hp rigs for a real HP value) but used no racial resistance bonus to be fair to all weapon systems. - Uses real setups, each ship fitting the same 5 slot armour tank then the rest damage modules (so 6 lows = 1 damage mod, 7 lows = 2 damage mods, 8 lows = 3 damage mods). - Added Maelstrom and Rokh to compare to the other tier 3's even though there shield tankers so have different compramises (mwd/cap booster/tackling/tank choices rather than tank/damage mods of armour tanks). - Doesn't include range, so remember the AC ships will lose damage after 3km, blasters at 4.5km and pulse at 15km. - For long range the ac's lose damage from 6km, blasters from 11250m (still less than lasers using close range ammo) and pulse from 45km. -
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.20 17:36:00 - [964] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 20/12/2007 17:37:12 Originally by: Marn Prestoc Originally by: Goumindong Poast Spreadsheet. Poasted - Shows how different hardeners affect each ship/weapon/ammo using all 3 HP levels of a battleship (used megathrons HP values with 2x RT 1600 and 3 hp rigs for a real HP value) but used no racial resistance bonus to be fair to all weapon systems. - Uses real setups, each ship fitting the same 5 slot armour tank then the rest damage modules (so 6 lows = 1 damage mod, 7 lows = 2 damage mods, 8 lows = 3 damage mods). - Added Maelstrom and Rokh to compare to the other tier 3's even though there shield tankers so have different compramises (mwd/cap booster/tackling/tank choices rather than tank/damage mods of armour tanks). - Doesn't include range, so remember the AC ships will lose damage after 3km, blasters at 4.5km and pulse at 15km. - For long range the ac's lose damage from 6km, blasters from 11250m (still less than lasers using close range ammo) and pulse from 45km. As someone who uses lasers in PvP, does your spreadsheet account for the fact that fitting mods/cap are required? Also, it would be fair to put down averave dps over a 5-10 minute period, if you are going to exclude things like fitting mods etc. I still remember the day I was in 9-9 a 2 hour fleet battle with my Abaddon, able to target freely while others were lagged, but only able to sustain 1 gun due to cap problems. -- Billion Isk Mission
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 18:37:00 - [965] Originally by: Lord WarATron As someone who uses lasers in PvP, does your spreadsheet account for the fact that fitting mods/cap are required? Also, it would be fair to put down averave dps over a 5-10 minute period, if you are going to exclude things like fitting mods etc. I still remember the day I was in 9-9 a 2 hour fleet battle with my Abaddon, able to target freely while others were lagged, but only able to sustain 1 gun due to cap problems. Comparison is short range guns only. Long range weapons havent been done yet.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 18:37:00 - [966] Originally by: Dillius Archania There have been tons of arguments, many greats ones by Goumindong, and we now have a 33 page thread just chock FULL of ideas, and yet still no response, still nothing from the Devs. At this point, you'd think they'd start to think, "Hey, these guys have been complaining non-stop. I wonder if there's a reason for that?" The recent dev blog (which I have not listened to but skimmed the transcript) was apparently a joke at least in terms of Amarrian balance issues. No, they are working on it, it just wont get done while they are all with their families for christmas.
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.20 18:56:00 - [967] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Dillius Archania There have been tons of arguments, many greats ones by Goumindong, and we now have a 33 page thread just chock FULL of ideas, and yet still no response, still nothing from the Devs. At this point, you'd think they'd start to think, "Hey, these guys have been complaining non-stop. I wonder if there's a reason for that?" The recent dev blog (which I have not listened to but skimmed the transcript) was apparently a joke at least in terms of Amarrian balance issues. No, they are working on it, it just wont get done while they are all with their families for christmas. Wish I had the confidence you did. I can understand the busy Christmas holidays, I just wish we could be at least told "We're working on it" or the like.
Marn Prestoc Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.20 19:11:00 - [968] Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 20/12/2007 19:12:56 Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 20/12/2007 17:37:12 Originally by: Marn Prestoc Originally by: Goumindong Poast Spreadsheet. Poasted - Shows how different hardeners affect each ship/weapon/ammo using all 3 HP levels of a battleship (used megathrons HP values with 2x RT 1600 and 3 hp rigs for a real HP value) but used no racial resistance bonus to be fair to all weapon systems. - Uses real setups, each ship fitting the same 5 slot armour tank then the rest damage modules (so 6 lows = 1 damage mod, 7 lows = 2 damage mods, 8 lows = 3 damage mods). - Added Maelstrom and Rokh to compare to the other tier 3's even though there shield tankers so have different compramises (mwd/cap booster/tackling/tank choices rather than tank/damage mods of armour tanks). - Doesn't include range, so remember the AC ships will lose damage after 3km, blasters at 4.5km and pulse at 15km. - For long range the ac's lose damage from 6km, blasters from 11250m (still less than lasers using close range ammo) and pulse from 45km. As someone who uses lasers in PvP, does your spreadsheet account for the fact that fitting mods/cap are required? Also, it would be fair to put down averave dps over a 5-10 minute period, if you are going to exclude things like fitting mods etc. I still remember the day I was in 9-9 a 2 hour fleet battle with my Abaddon, able to target freely while others were lagged, but only able to sustain 1 gun due to cap problems. Just gonna link this again, was a full analysis of real close range gang setups that doesn't just take one stat from one setup and a different stat from a seperate setup. There were no fitting mods to exclude because no close range fits need a fitting mod. All setups were runable with cap boosters. Analysed range, tank... yeah just have a read. Was just meant to show how damage types affect the ships rather than assumptions, armour isn't the only HP level, structure makes up a lot of the HP when a DC is fit (DC's are to strong IMHO) so its hard to put a true DPS figure on unless you blinker yourself to just 1 layer of HP. The more ships you add that are shooting the smaller all the numbers become, closing the difference and making things like lock time and instant hiting from turrets and such increase in importance upto the point where you are more effective in sniper fittings. Long range is a completely different thing, no matter what is done the Abaddon won't be a sustainable fleet sniper, the question is modify the Apoc (increase fitting and change cap bonus from 5% to 10%) or increase PG of the Geddon as most setups run out of PG before cpu so CPU will be the constraining factor for downgraded guns/close range setups the same way it is for the Maelstrom. -
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.20 21:44:00 - [969] Originally by: Marn Prestoc stuff Very good analysis. The Tempest got the Advantage of 2 more Med Slots(using your Web/MWD/Scrambler Setup). On a passive Tank they could be used for EW(Tracking Disruptors/Damps) to compensate the lower Damage with with longer Lock Time or reducing Tracking/Optimal Range of the Target. Also Dual Web is a very good Way to stop Blasterships to get into her Optimal Range. Also Tempest got a advantage in Speed and Agility and can dedicate Range better than other BS. Since you used a passive armor HP Tank on every Ship with the same Modules it is a fair picture but gives Amarr a little advantage, cause her higher Base Armor/Resists and Gank fitted Setups(where Amarr and Galente are better than Minmatar). Activetanked Cap use will have a bigger Impact. Also the Resistances on Armor will have a bigger Impact at active tanked Setups where the Armor tend to least longer if you are not up to against a gank fitted Ship and the Combat least longer than 90 Seconds. Afterall Gedon and Abaddon are very nice Ships and don¦t need a change to be deacend. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 21:59:00 - [970] The tempest is also weak against shield tanks where the Amarr ships are not. They also have falloff issues. Tempests arent good as primary DPS ships The reason that passive tanked ships were used is because passive tanks are the best tank you can fit for the majority of gang PvP. Once two battleships are on grid, plates become better than reppers unless you are spending a lot of isk.[and even then probably still better]

The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.20 22:23:00 - [971] Originally by: Goumindong The tempest is also weak against shield tanks where the Amarr ships are not. They also have falloff issues. Tempests arent good as primary DPS ships The reason that passive tanked ships were used is because passive tanks are the best tank you can fit for the majority of gang PvP. Once two battleships are on grid, plates become better than reppers unless you are spending a lot of isk.[and even then probably still better] I yust wanted to point out that the Tempest is not that bad afterall. Also you can use Phased Plasma against a Shildtank. Rig boosted Aktivetanks are not that bad. Her biggest drawback is that they do less Damage(less Powergrid for Guns). Realy mutch depends on the situation and how mutch constant DPS you have to tank. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 22:31:00 - [972] Yea, but every time you change ammo, it adds roughly 7 seconds on top of that time till death number[assuming you waste zero time clicking] before worrying about anything else. Not a big deal if you dont have the target locked, but if you do, it is.
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.12.20 23:28:00 - [973] You know, now that you can clearly see the blue aura on dev post threads... The 34 page Amarr problem thread doesnt seem to have one of those! I wonder why that is? _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.20 23:35:00 - [974] Edited by: The Djego on 20/12/2007 23:36:51 Edited by: The Djego on 20/12/2007 23:35:58 Originally by: Sharupak You know, now that you can clearly see the blue aura on dev post threads... The 34 page Amarr problem thread doesnt seem to have one of those! I wonder why that is? Devs post with alts to? Im preaty shure 1 or 2 have allready taken a look into this topic. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.12.20 23:45:00 - [975] Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 20/12/2007 23:36:51 Edited by: The Djego on 20/12/2007 23:35:58 Originally by: Sharupak You know, now that you can clearly see the blue aura on dev post threads... The 34 page Amarr problem thread doesnt seem to have one of those! I wonder why that is? Devs post with alts to? Im preaty shure 1 or 2 have allready taken a look into this topic. LOL! Rats! _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
Kash's hauler	Posted - 2007.12.20 23:49:00 - [976] /signed but the devoter (amarr heavy nterdictor) has the potential to be the best tank out of the HAC'tors. So perhaps they got a break for once.
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.20 23:55:00 - [977] Originally by: Kash's hauler /signed but the devoter (amarr heavy nterdictor) has the potential to be the best tank out of the HAC'tors. So perhaps they got a break for once. Why nobody posts with his main anymore? Looking on the Trade Forum the Devoter don¦t sell that mutch. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.20 23:57:00 - [978] Edited by: The Djego on 20/12/2007 23:58:04 Have to post 1000 Replays. Sorry could not resist. Afterall there are lots of nice Input in this Thread. It deserves a look for shure. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Malken Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.21 00:26:00 - [979] Felysta you still got a few pages to get up to my amarr thread and still amarr is fubared
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.21 01:18:00 - [980] Originally by: Marn Prestoc Fit plates not rep's, your Amarr and get an resistance bonus, not gallente with a rep bonus. There design is to last as long as possible in large gangs where HP tanking is best, then you have low-cap or no-cap options of repairing each other (amarr logistics or repair drones) that receive the benifit from the resistance bonus where a repair bonus does not help remote repping. HP tanking is viable in PvP, its clearly better than repair tanking when your taking 3000 dps or more due to self repairing not having time to repair more HP than a plated tank would of given. edit: missed a "not" out. OK, fair enough, you give me a viable and acceptable option to how I can solve the problem in PvP which actually is constructive and not a "l2p" response . I have to admit I'm fairly green when it comes to PvP and shipsetups which works in PvP. But I'm primarily a missionrunner and that tank there works really bad in missions. I know the Rokh has cap issues too on missions, but not anywhere near as bad as the Abaddon. And seeing as the Abaddon is my best alternative if I fly Amarr ships I have to admit I'm fairly screwed. Not to mention the fixed damagetype which makes the ship hoplessly ineffective to anything but Sansha, Bloodraiders and mercs. Even with the damagebonus. I'm not saying that the Abaddon should be an allround 'pwnmobile' but as it is now I have a strange love/hate relationship with her. She needs at least better cap... ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)

Morhon Amarr Aegis Starship Enterprises	Posted - 2007.12.21 01:27:00 - [981] Signed.... Though I think I have already replied to this stating that you are wasting your time. Amarr have been broken for so long it's stupid and CCP seem to be making no effort to fix it. My guess is they have no idea how to fix it (rather than just make amarr over powered and hope nobody notices the sudden shift from gallante over power). They have looked at the number of people playing each race and decided that they can afford to carry on ****ing off Amarr players because there aren't so many of us. They can't work out thats because we don't suggest amarr to new people we introduce, or use for our alts, so continue to scratch their heads about Jita, an try to force people to 0.0 to take pressure of the servers (when the largest empire in eve is near empty). Congrats on an excellent analyisis Felysta. I'm sure CCP will take note and add 1% per level to tracking for Amarr or similar so they can say they did somthing... OK so they will probably give 10% fire rate per level on gallante but hey whats new. I gave up on this ages ago Does my bum look big in this cape?
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.21 01:38:00 - [982] Good to see this topic has reached over 1000 replies now... Kind of shows that something is seriously wrong with Amarr... All three of my accounts are currently inactive (this one is the last and should be offline in about 15 hours). I'm going on a month's strike off EVE due to this Amarr rubbish, and hopefully the $45 or ú23 or 30 euros will make a slight difference to CCP's bottom line enough so they recognise it, but if not, meh! One other thing that should be noted as inbalanced, is that the new Amarr ships added in Trinity are a hell of a lot more expensive than non-Amarr ships. I can't imagine this is because they're the most wanted ships, and can only theorise that someone got the numbers wrong and nerfed Amarr again. But as it stands, the Paladin and Redeemer are by a LONG way the most expensive t2 BSs, and the others seem very even with each other. Last I checked, the Sentinel was also the most expensive EAS, but I haven't checked in a few days on that one though... Hopefully, I'll see the error of my ways (cancelling 3 accounts) and I'll be back soon, but if not... Bye bye everyone! And no, no-one can have my stuff... Latest Video, Click Here!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.21 09:19:00 - [983] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Good to see this topic has reached over 1000 replies now... Kind of shows that something is seriously wrong with Amarr... All three of my accounts are currently inactive (this one is the last and should be offline in about 15 hours). I'm going on a month's strike off EVE due to this Amarr rubbish, and hopefully the $45 or ú23 or 30 euros will make a slight difference to CCP's bottom line enough so they recognise it, but if not, meh! One other thing that should be noted as inbalanced, is that the new Amarr ships added in Trinity are a hell of a lot more expensive than non-Amarr ships. I can't imagine this is because they're the most wanted ships, and can only theorise that someone got the numbers wrong and nerfed Amarr again. But as it stands, the Paladin and Redeemer are by a LONG way the most expensive t2 BSs, and the others seem very even with each other. Last I checked, the Sentinel was also the most expensive EAS, but I haven't checked in a few days on that one though... Hopefully, I'll see the error of my ways (cancelling 3 accounts) and I'll be back soon, but if not... Bye bye everyone! And no, no-one can have my stuff... Have fun. Also remember that the new Amarr ships are kinda useless. A Nos Frig for example..... I mean, whats the point? It seems to me that CCP focus all their efforts on other races and amarr are left in the gutter. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.21 09:20:00 - [984] Originally by: Malken Felysta you still got a few pages to get up to my amarr thread and still amarr is fubared Lol - You had a 100 Page Amarr thread. A true standing ovation.... And the devs did nothing other than a mod who locked it. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.21 11:02:00 - [985] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Malken Felysta you still got a few pages to get up to my amarr thread and still amarr is fubared Lol - You had a 100 Page Amarr thread. A true standing ovation.... And the devs did nothing other than a mod who locked it. That's the problem... I wonder how many pages are needed before the devs turn round and say 'hey, you know what, maybe something is seriously wrong and imbalanced in this game'. How many pages was the capital ship thread before devs retracted the 5 fighters thing? With all the ideas floating around in my head (not just for Amarr, but other stuff too), I should be a content analyst in CCP... Latest Video, Click Here!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.21 11:06:00 - [986] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Malken Felysta you still got a few pages to get up to my amarr thread and still amarr is fubared Lol - You had a 100 Page Amarr thread. A true standing ovation.... And the devs did nothing other than a mod who locked it. That's the problem... I wonder how many pages are needed before the devs turn round and say 'hey, you know what, maybe something is seriously wrong and imbalanced in this game'. How many pages was the capital ship thread before devs retracted the 5 fighters thing? With all the ideas floating around in my head (not just for Amarr, but other stuff too), I should be a content analyst in CCP... Of course, it would not be good manners if I were to suggest that people cancel their accounts like you are doing, over the Amarr issue, but I havent a clue what CCP is thinking currently as they are showing bad communication on this serious issue. I mean, what is the point of training Amarr as it stands now? Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Ulric Denrai Amarr The Secret Fleet Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.21 11:55:00 - [987] Nok Nok !!! Yeah, who is there ? Not CCP . Amarr the cap race that is always out of cap.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.21 16:28:00 - [988] Originally by: Jonny JoJo I mean, what is the point of training Amarr as it stands now? For the Templar? It's an Amarr fighter used by Carriers... And my account should be inactive by now! FREE GAME TIME! Latest Video, Click Here!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.21 16:45:00 - [989] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn And my account should be inactive by now! FREE GAME TIME! Make the most of it by training Gallente! Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.21 23:28:00 - [990] I also canceled my account a few weeks ago in disgust over this egregious imbalance. My paid game time runs out at the end of January. I wonder if any single dev will reply to this thread or otherwise address the Amarr issue by then? -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting

Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.21 23:34:00 - [991] Originally by: Meridius Dex I also canceled my account a few weeks ago in disgust over this egregious imbalance. My paid game time runs out at the end of January. I wonder if any single dev will reply to this thread or otherwise address the Amarr issue by then? To be honest, even a acknoledgement that they are taking Amarr back to the drawing board or planning to change something and it could be 6 months to a year is acceptable. As it stands, if we know it will be a year before Amarr is fixed, then we can at least plan our training for short to mid term on that basis. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Rigid Phallic	Posted - 2007.12.22 00:06:00 - [992] yep i know the feeling op, i waited and waited for amarr race to have its turn again, many of my mates said dont worry amarr are due for a buff again, what did we get a slight acknowledgment from ccp when they made khandid ships missile boats, so as a amarr pilot this is my journey \0/ ganker geddon,/0\ nerfed geddon, mining apoc, unable to tackle retrobution, run away from anything minimitar or gallente zealot, \0/ dampning curse, /0\ nerfed curse, turd of a dps damnation (which was ok and understandable till i met a EOS), capless abaddon, and finally a ew frig that cant shoot. ive trained laser skills, projectile skills and now finally missile skills, frankly ccp im sick of being mugged of, account will be closed in 2 days, may return in 6 months to hook up with old friends, so long suckers and good luck
Karma Gallente Vortex Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.22 00:19:00 - [993] i just canceled my subscription.. and when asked why, this be what I put in: reason: <player harassment> elaboration: "CCPs constantly ignoring the Amarr issues is starting to border on harassment. that is why I quit." I suppose my form was still a bit weak though, with the '... is starting to...' hmmm. I just thought about something though... in the eyes of CCP, a 34-page thread complaining about amarr means very little if it's only about 10-20 people actually posting in the thread over and over and over again. :P and even further on the same thought, the more people agree on something, the less actual debate there is about it. a very long thread, might actually be indicative of not everyone being in agreement... I'll refrain from asking if I'm making any sense. since I know I probably aren't ;)
DroneBay Diva The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.22 02:05:00 - [994] Originally by: Sharupak You know, now that you can clearly see the blue aura on dev post threads... The 34 page Amarr problem thread doesnt seem to have one of those! I wonder why that is? This. _____________________________________________________________________________
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.22 23:36:00 - [995] As I was sitting around today I realized what would make me quite satisfied. The Omen being a bit more competent of a ship. Being close to like the rupture/stabber/thorax level of gunboats, so we'd have a nice cheap cruiser to play around in that didn't involve investing in drone skills or projectiles.
Karma Gallente Vortex Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.23 00:16:00 - [996] Edited by: Karma on 23/12/2007 00:17:42 my biggest pet-peeve with amarr is the fact that either a ship gets one of its ship-bonuses taken up by a '10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use per level' ... OR they run out of cap in a second. Where other races get a damage, range, rate of fire, or tracking speed bonus... that makes their every ship go from 'average' to 'great'... the Amarr get a cap-use bonus that makes their ship go from 'crap' to 'average' (in the best of cases).
Zana Kito Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 04:28:00 - [997] Boost patch is coming! Dev: "we know amarr needs help.. we just don't know what..i mean, it's not like there are thousands of posts on the forums all suggesting that amarr are rubbish and needs improvement, all with good ways on how to fix it as well all laid out for us." Players: "there are those posts, all over the place." Dev: "woooahh... really? don't joke.. next you are going to say there are recons other than caldari?!"
Niding Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 04:41:00 - [998] Edited by: Niding on 23/12/2007 04:42:55 I fly Armageddon 99% of the time, with t2 pulses. I use remote rep AND 7 mega pulses. Ive been in engagements that lasted 30+ nonstop shooting (well..changing targets, and being jammed every now and then). While I was shooting with 7 pulses AND constantly remote repping my gangmates to keep them alive, I never got close to running out of cap. And dealt top damage/high on the list of quite a few of them, amongst ships from other races. Academics are one thing, but in a shootout the Armageddon seems to be doing a pretty good job. That said, I would obviously LOOOVE a amarr boost, atleast to keep up with Caldari boosting. If nothing else, it would make the geddon pwn even more Armageddon isnt much of a soloship tho, but in large gangs it really shines. Btw: I have chars that can fly t2 versions of every other race too, and find myself going back to amarr within a short time.
Zana Kito Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 05:50:00 - [999] Armaggedon has always been a fine ship. Why? It's got good bonuses (25% rof is 33% dps boost) and a huge 125m3 drone space, etc to perform well.
Rigid Phallic	Posted - 2007.12.23 05:57:00 - [1000] Viziam ships are quite possibly the most durable ships money can buy. Their armor is second to none and that, combined with superior shields, makes them hard nuts to ***. LIES.....the nighthawk and drake for there class are toughest nuts to ***, who writes this rubbish, The Abaddon class ship is a celestial tool of destruction. It is designed to enter combat from the outset, targeting enemies at range and firing salvo after salvo at them, and to remain intact on the battlefield until every heretic in sight has been torn to shreds. LIES.....the Abaddon runs out of cap, it cant sit at range that means BEAM sucking cap weapons, who writes this garbage, Hull: Crucifier Class Role: Electronic Attack Ship Electronic attack ships are mobile, resilient electronic warfare platforms. Although well suited to a variety of situations, they really come into their own in skirmish and fleet encounters, LIES.....ccp said they wanted smaller gangs this ship cant even fire weapons and use its EW, this ship needs to be in a FLEET and hide, who writes this poppycock, Name: Curse Hull: Arbitrator Role: Combat Recon Ship Built to represent the last word in electronic warfare, combat recon ships have onboard facilities designed to maximize the effectiveness of electronic countermeasure modules of all kinds. Filling a role next to their class counterpart, the heavy assault ship, combat recon ships are the state of the art when it comes to anti-support support. They are also devastating adversaries in smaller skirmishes, possessing strong defensive capabilities in addition to their electronic superiority. LIES....it did once do something the only amarr ship of its class that could hold its head up, not now, oh not now just look at the market and see what they cost , defensive capabiltys with its amazing 4 low slots, the nerf bat swung for the gallente and smashed the amarr, if you disagree why do they cost less than all other recons and the prices have halfed since that patch, what a bunch of lies they spin for you lot, amazing

Darken Kharn	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:39:00 - [1001] /bump for awesome thread
Vrabac Amarr BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:18:00 - [1002] Edited by: Vrabac on 23/12/2007 11:20:02 Originally by: Niding Anyhow...this isnt Solo pvp related, more of how a ship fits into different scenarios. A more ...amarr in practice than on paper. Hopefully the other Amarrian loyalists wont burn me for treason for this post Oh btw; Boost AMARR! Well said. Ok can we now get rid of the rediculous script things and have our old semi useless, but not entirely useless tracking disruptors? P.S. I'm pretty certain TD rigs gave 10% bonus before, now it's 5%, which isnt really worth half a rig slot... Is it because TDs have "two effects"? And If so does CCP realise they *DON'T* have two effects any more?
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:22:00 - [1003] Originally by: Niding Edited by: Niding on 23/12/2007 05:08:57 I fly Armageddon 99% of the time, with t2 pulses. I use remote rep AND 7 mega pulses. Ive been in engagements that lasted 30+ nonstop shooting (well..changing targets, and being jammed every now and then). While I was shooting with 7 pulses AND constantly remote repping my gangmates to keep them alive, I never got close to running out of cap. And dealt top damage/high on the list of quite a few of them, amongst ships from other races. Academics are one thing, but in a shootout the Armageddon seems to be doing a pretty good job. That said, I would obviously LOOOVE a amarr boost, atleast to keep up with Caldari boosting. If nothing else, it would make the geddon pwn even more Armageddon isnt much of a soloship tho, but in large gangs it really shines. Only problem in gang pvp is that amarrians are usually the slowest BS. Slowing down the whole gang which could land you in trouble/get tackled before escaping (while you mates are mwding towards gates/out of harms way etc). Btw: I have chars that can fly t2 versions of every other race too, and find myself going back to amarr within a short time. EDIT: One thing ppl keep forgetting when PVPing is that raw DPS doesnt mean much unless in optimal range. A armageddon has 50km+ range instant damage and close to instant reload when target range require different crystals. A megathron..i dont remember it 100% but you usually end up mwding all over the place to get in range. (i flew it for a while, until i realised its weakness in large gang combat) While the megathron is closing distance to deal damage, the geddon has already been doing damage for X amount of seconds, making the EFFECTIVE dps close to/higher than the mega. Once the target is dead, the mega has to mwd back into range of the next target, while the armageddon sits still and has range for pretty much everything except the nanojunk that are already at 100km++. The fact that the armageddon doesnt have to chase its target makes remote repping more effective too..coz ur constantly in range ;) Anyhow...this isnt Solo pvp related, more of how a ship fits into different scenarios. A more ...amarr in practice than on paper. Hopefully the other Amarrian loyalists wont burn me for treason for this post Oh btw; Boost AMARR! Nice post. As stated before the Armageddon is preaty good and the Damage Bonus and Heavy Drones help her to performe very well. The Megathron would use mostly rails in bigger Gangs. With a Blaster Fitting it also can use Null for about 25 km Range(Neutrons) or 18km(Ions) and still dealing good Damage. 25km is still a lot of range in smaller Gang Combat. In small Gangs or Solo the Mega has the upper hand with Blasters. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Vrabac Amarr BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:33:00 - [1004] Originally by: The Djego The Megathron would use mostly rails in bigger Gangs. With a Blaster Fitting it also can use Null for about 25 km Range(Neutrons) or 18km(Ions) and still dealing good Damage. 25km is still a lot of range in smaller Gang Combat. In small Gangs or Solo the Mega has the upper hand with Blasters. With rails it will do very low dps, with null it needs 10 seconds for reload. It all gives Geddon's 50km with scorch an edge here. But mega is of course unparalleled when it comes to close range and even in gang fights are often happening close enough for it to excell, no question there. What we need to do it move the discussion from battleships to other things. Did anyone try out Omen? I hear it can take any other frig easily.
Uchuu Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:41:00 - [1005] Congratulations, the number of pages of this thread has reached half that of a similar thread posted around 2 years ago where tuxford said he would look at the issues
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:14:00 - [1006] First of your Post lacks contend, in the way of what is broken or what can be changed(you only use Ship descriptons, Zealot anyone?). So it is preaty mutch in the wrong post here. Nearly as poor as the people how say I cancel my Accouts if Amarr don¦t get fixed. Simple because it has no related thing exept of pure whine. Originally by: Rigid Phallic Viziam ships are quite possibly the most durable ships money can buy. Their armor is second to none and that, combined with superior shields, makes them hard nuts to ***. LIES.....the nighthawk and drake for there class are toughest nuts to *, who writes this rubbish, You comparing Shild Tank to Armortank? This people using all her Slots only for tank, don¦t do mutch of a damage and can¦t tackle or have no speed. Vizam Ships can tank realy good when they fitted in the same fasion. Originally by:** Rigid Phallic The Abaddon class ship is a celestial tool of destruction. It is designed to enter combat from the outset, targeting enemies at range and firing salvo after salvo at them, and to remain intact on the battlefield until every heretic in sight has been torn to shreds. LIES.....the Abaddon runs out of cap, it cant sit at range that means BEAM sucking cap weapons, who writes this garbage, I posted a Cap Stable Beam Setup for the Abaddon 2 Pages ago. Also by the Ship Boni of the Abbadon it designed to tank and Gank with Puls. NOT FOR BEAM SNIPING. Abaddon is a good Ship. Use it in his role and it can Outperform most of the other Ships out there. Originally by: Rigid Phallic Hull: Crucifier Class Role: Electronic Attack Ship Electronic attack ships are mobile, resilient electronic warfare platforms. Although well suited to a variety of situations, they really come into their own in skirmish and fleet encounters, LIES.....ccp said they wanted smaller gangs this ship cant even fire weapons and use its EW, this ship needs to be in a FLEET and hide, who writes this poppycock, The Nos/Neut Bonus is not that hot on a Frig agree. But this Ship got Drones and a Trackingdisruptor Bonus. I have not flyed this Ship yet so i can¦t say something on his performance in real combat situations. I bet 100 ISK you never flown this yourself to so fair deal. Originally by: Rigid Phallic Name: Curse Hull: Arbitrator Role: Combat Recon Ship Built to represent the last word in electronic warfare, combat recon ships have onboard facilities designed to maximize the effectiveness of electronic countermeasure modules of all kinds. Filling a role next to their class counterpart, the heavy assault ship, combat recon ships are the state of the art when it comes to anti-support support. They are also devastating adversaries in smaller skirmishes, possessing strong defensive capabilities in addition to their electronic superiority. LIES....it did once do something the only amarr ship of its class that could hold its head up, not now, oh not now just look at the market and see what they cost , defensive capabiltys with its amazing 4 low slots, the nerf bat swung for the gallente and smashed the amarr, if you disagree why do they cost less than all other recons and the prices have halfed since that patch, what a bunch of lies they spin for you lot, amazing Well it is a Reacon and can be preaty good with Neuts/Nos Mix. But ECM, Dampner and the Web Bonus is a bit better for a Reacon as a Support Ship. Curse and Pilgram need a bit tweaking but are NOT compleet Junk atm. Price gone down because it is not the favour of the year Ship any more. I seen also some Pilotes that switched from Galente Reacons to Minmatar because of the Damp Nerf. People will allways pick a favour of the year Ship becaues they think it is better than the rest. PS.: If you have nothing constructive than don¦t mind posting. The Thread lost preaty mutch his good start because of may contendless posts. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:19:00 - [1007] Edited by: The Djego on 23/12/2007 12:23:59 Edited by: The Djego on 23/12/2007 12:22:27 Originally by: Vrabac Edited by: Vrabac on 23/12/2007 11:37:07 Originally by: The Djego The Megathron would use mostly rails in bigger Gangs. With a Blaster Fitting it also can use Null for about 25 km Range(Neutrons) or 18km(Ions) and still dealing good Damage. 25km is still a lot of range in smaller Gang Combat. In small Gangs or Solo the Mega has the upper hand with Blasters. With rails it will do very low dps, with null it needs 10 seconds for reload. It all gives Geddon's 50km with scorch an edge here. But mega is of course unparalleled when it comes to close range and even in gang fights are often happening close enough for it to excell, no question there. What we need to do is move the discussion from battleships to other things. Did anyone try out Omen? I hear it can take any other frig easily. I never used Void mutch in a bigger Gang, so I use Null from the start. Compare Omen to Stabber and Caracal, because they are the same Tier. I posted my point of view for the Omen and the Maller on Page 28 with more detail. Take a look. PS: It more depends of a good Input and Ideas that a Thread become a good argument of changing something. Pure amount of the Pages won¦t do that and make it boring to read. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Sanka Cofie Amarr Nubs. Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:39:00 - [1008] Sanka Cofie's official position on this topic is this: Buff Amarr. The laser turrets are a lie. ~-~-~-~-~ -[WillChat4ISK]- I can be the handsome Amarr space captain. You can be the helpless Minmatar slave girl.
Malken Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:13:00 - [1009] Originally by: Uchuu Congratulations, the number of pages of this thread has reached half that of a similar thread posted around 2 years ago where tuxford said he would look at the issues its still just around third of what my 101 page thread was and they totally ignored that and nerfed some more, why woould anyone think they wont do the same to this one? train caldari and gallente ladies.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.23 16:56:00 - [1010] a good question would be how many people cross trained when they heard all this misinformation as newbs and have no proof that all amarr classes and ships equivalent to ships of other races are not so good other than what they heard and some questionable paper calculations? the answer would be too many - some people need to understand what it means to train for something longer than a month Trashed sig, Shark was here

small chimp	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:23:00 - [1011] I heard some rumors that ccp thinks that amarr are too powerful and are going to nerf them?
doodah 6	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:09:00 - [1012] same could be said of damage mods, or shield boosting mods that use low slots.. You comparing Shild Tank to Armortank? This people using all her Slots only for tank, don¦t do mutch of a damage and can¦t tackle or have no speed. Vizam Ships can tank realy good when they fitted in the same fasion. and just out of curiosty why did ccp see fit to make all amarr/khandid ships missile boats if they did'nt see a problem. why do you think this happened? which leads on to the main part of this thread all other amarr laser useing ships are broken and have been for years, there is not one, not one laser ship that is equal, in its class compared to the other races.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:24:00 - [1013] Originally by: doodah 6 same could be said of damage mods, or shield boosting mods that use low slots.. You comparing Shild Tank to Armortank? This people using all her Slots only for tank, don¦t do mutch of a damage and can¦t tackle or have no speed. Vizam Ships can tank realy good when they fitted in the same fasion. and just out of curiosty why did ccp see fit to make all amarr/khandid ships missile boats if they did'nt see a problem. why do you think this happened? which leads on to the main part of this thread all other amarr laser useing ships are broken and have been for years, there is not one, not one laser ship that is equal, in its class compared to the other races. With exception to the nightmare. High slots Lasers, Mid slots web/scram/tank (7 mids 4tw), and low slots Damage mods. And it needs no fitting mods unlike rest of Amarr, and its tracking is good (Amarr usualy have almost half gallente tracking, even after tracking boot) and its damage is good. So nightmare is the only laser ship able to be competitive with other races. Even the paladin, baised on the simaler concept, fails in that it needs fitting mods, and lacks mids to have a proper pvp + tank setup (tank in lows = low damage after fitting mods/tracking taken into account). Remember - Amarr BS's are so poor at tracking, you can MWD orbit them to gain 100% imunity to their turrets. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:54:00 - [1014] OH what the hell, one more wount hirt, but wiht the anounsment of the "feel Good" patch for after new year id like to draw atantion to stuff that we realy dont want to see chsnged. for example arbitrator - a damn great ship. Same as with al the amar ships you need some dearly hight skills to really make it work, but once you do and got a good set up - it will easely walk over most more expancive cruisers of other races. really dont whantt o see that chnged And then there is Armageddon - even on fearly low skills its a great ship. grat dps ( even with a tank setup) and pleny of drone space. dont want to see that chnged either.
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.24 13:57:00 - [1015] Edited by: The Djego on 24/12/2007 13:58:08 Originally by: Jonny JoJo With exception to the nightmare. High slots Lasers, Mid slots web/scram/tank (7 mids 4tw), and low slots Damage mods. And it needs no fitting mods unlike rest of Amarr, and its tracking is good (Amarr usualy have almost half gallente tracking, even after tracking boot) and its damage is good. So nightmare is the only laser ship able to be competitive with other races. Even the paladin, baised on the simaler concept, fails in that it needs fitting mods, and lacks mids to have a proper pvp + tank setup (tank in lows = low damage after fitting mods/tracking taken into account). Remember - Amarr BS's are so poor at tracking, you can MWD orbit them to gain 100% imunity to their turrets. Why you troll this thread into oblivion? You never said something constructive. Allways only crap/smack/dev hate. And not even got the balls to post with your main, you olny useing this stupid flame alt. Stop posting for real man. Remember - some Amarr Ships are FINE, some less. Thats it I made a Idee of a rolechange, you not. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.24 18:55:00 - [1016] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 24/12/2007 18:58:00 Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 24/12/2007 13:58:08 Originally by: Jonny JoJo With exception to the nightmare. High slots Lasers, Mid slots web/scram/tank (7 mids 4tw), and low slots Damage mods. And it needs no fitting mods unlike rest of Amarr, and its tracking is good (Amarr usualy have almost half gallente tracking, even after tracking boot) and its damage is good. So nightmare is the only laser ship able to be competitive with other races. Even the paladin, baised on the simaler concept, fails in that it needs fitting mods, and lacks mids to have a proper pvp + tank setup (tank in lows = low damage after fitting mods/tracking taken into account). Remember - Amarr BS's are so poor at tracking, you can MWD orbit them to gain 100% imunity to their turrets. Why you troll this thread into oblivion? You never said something constructive. Allways only crap/smack/dev hate. And not even got the balls to post with your main, you olny useing this stupid flame alt. Stop posting for real man. Remember - some Amarr Ships are FINE, some less. Thats it I made a Idee of a rolechange, you not. Troll? It is pretty obvious to anyone who flys Amarr what is wrong with their ships. Once once you fly a non-handicaped lasership like a nightmare then you relise how broken the rest of Amarr are. Have you flown a nightmare? Before the nightmare fix, people like you would accuse me of calling all laserships useless. However, I broke the thread by being the FIRST person to congratulate CCP on putting a lasership in eve that is actually good. Think about it - Nightmare vs Paladin. One ship is highly competitive, the other is not. The nightmare would be as crippled as the paladin were it not for the nightmares 15-20% extra grid, which removes the need for fitting mods, allowing players to use cap mods, tracking mods or heatsinks. In other words - actually allowing the players to use their slots, insted of the fakeslot scenario. If I was whining for the sake of whining, then why am I congratulating the Nightmare lasership? You see, I am being brutally honest in calling a brick a brick. I have given lots of constructive solutions. However, this thread, just like the other 100 page Amarr thread, gets ignored. The real troll is people like yourself who have probebly never flown a Nightmare and paladin side by side to see how horribly imbalanced the ships are due to the handicaped way Amarr ships are designed. I love the Resturant that is CCP. However, my Amarr Cola is Flat. Shoudl I drink flat cola? Or should I tell the waiter to get me a fizzy drink? Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.24 20:41:00 - [1017] Gonna have to try to farm me up a BPC for that Nightmare, rather than wasting money going after a Paladin then.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.24 21:15:00 - [1018] Originally by: doodah 6 same could be said of damage mods, or shield boosting mods that use low slots.. You comparing Shild Tank to Armortank? This people using all her Slots only for tank, don¦t do mutch of a damage and can¦t tackle or have no speed. Vizam Ships can tank realy good when they fitted in the same fasion. and just out of curiosty why did ccp see fit to make all amarr/khandid ships missile boats if they did'nt see a problem. why do you think this happened? which leads on to the main part of this thread all other amarr laser useing ships are broken and have been for years, there is not one, not one laser ship that is equal, in its class compared to the other races. according to your in game information you are 9 months old and in an npc corp how old is your main because 9months in an npc corp doesnt net you enough pvp sps or experience to say much about amarr ships in general this is the problem with the entire thread Trashed sig, Shark was here
Rigid Phallic	Posted - 2007.12.24 22:04:00 - [1019] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: doodah 6 same could be said of damage mods, or shield boosting mods that use low slots.. You comparing Shild Tank to Armortank? This people using all her Slots only for tank, don¦t do mutch of a damage and can¦t tackle or have no speed. Vizam Ships can tank realy good when they fitted in the same fasion. and just out of curiosty why did ccp see fit to make all amarr/khandid ships missile boats if they did'nt see a problem. why do you think this happened? which leads on to the main part of this thread all other amarr laser useing ships are broken and have been for years, there is not one, not one laser ship that is equal, in its class compared to the other races. according to your in game information you are 9 months old and in an npc corp how old is your main because 9months in an npc corp doesnt net you enough pvp sps or experience to say much about amarr ships in general this is the problem with the entire thread why dont you comment on the post and stop having cheap shots, or did your chest deflate the same time laser ships became laser/missile/projectile ships ?
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.24 22:19:00 - [1020] Originally by: Rigid Phallic why dont you comment on the post and stop having cheap shots, or did your chest deflate the same time laser ships became laser/missile/projectile ships ? everything has been said here and i only reinforce those statements that say - some - amarr ships need a boost not lasers in general the reason no one listens to this thread is because people expect 500ksp in one weapon to equal 500ksp in another weapon and they forgot to train important secondary skills theres no amarr ships that should be shooting projectiles any more than caldari ships shooting lasers Trashed sig, Shark was here

Rigid Phallic	Posted - 2007.12.24 22:40:00 - [1021] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Rigid Phallic why dont you comment on the post and stop having cheap shots, or did your chest deflate the same time laser ships became laser/missile/projectile ships ? everything has been said here and i only reinforce those statements that say - some - amarr ships need a boost not lasers in general the reason no one listens to this thread is because people expect 500ksp in one weapon to equal 500ksp in another weapon and they forgot to train important secondary skills theres no amarr ships that should be shooting projectiles any more than caldari ships shooting lasers never heard of the duel rep projctapoc or a prophecy fitted with 220 ac, am i the only one thats fitted these ships like that? then we have missiles, plus laser ships, what do you mean amarr dont fit other weapons on there ship to save cap?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 22:54:00 - [1022] Just because its better that way than with lasers, doesnt mean that its good.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.24 23:10:00 - [1023] Originally by: Rigid Phallic Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Rigid Phallic why dont you comment on the post and stop having cheap shots, or did your chest deflate the same time laser ships became laser/missile/projectile ships ? everything has been said here and i only reinforce those statements that say - some - amarr ships need a boost not lasers in general the reason no one listens to this thread is because people expect 500ksp in one weapon to equal 500ksp in another weapon and they forgot to train important secondary skills theres no amarr ships that should be shooting projectiles any more than caldari ships shooting lasers never heard of the duel rep projctapoc or a prophecy fitted with 220 ac, am i the only one thats fitted these ships like that? then we have missiles, plus laser ships, what do you mean amarr dont fit other weapons on there ship to save cap? Then why fly an Amarr ship in those situations then? Those setups are substandard to other races. I mean, you can fit projectiles to a raven, but then the ship remains uncompetitive. Do you see where I am going with this? Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.24 23:12:00 - [1024] Originally by: Dillius Archania Gonna have to try to farm me up a BPC for that Nightmare, rather than wasting money going after a Paladin then. Exactly. For PvE, you can tank in mids, low slots damage mods, perhaps a cap mod or two, and highs lasers. For pvp, well... 7 minds. Nuff said Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.24 23:12:00 - [1025] Edited by: The Djego on 24/12/2007 23:13:36 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Jonny JoJo With exception to the nightmare. High slots Lasers, Mid slots web/scram/tank (7 mids 4tw), and low slots Damage mods. And it needs no fitting mods unlike rest of Amarr, and its tracking is good (Amarr usualy have almost half gallente tracking, even after tracking boot) and its damage is good. So nightmare is the only laser ship able to be competitive with other races. Even the paladin, baised on the simaler concept, fails in that it needs fitting mods, and lacks mids to have a proper pvp + tank setup (tank in lows = low damage after fitting mods/tracking taken into account). Remember - Amarr BS's are so poor at tracking, you can MWD orbit them to gain 100% imunity to their turrets. Why you troll this thread into oblivion? You never said something constructive. Allways only crap/smack/dev hate. And not even got the balls to post with your main, you olny useing this stupid flame alt. Stop posting for real man. Remember - some Amarr Ships are FINE, some less. Thats it I made a Idee of a rolechange, you not. Troll? It is pretty obvious to anyone who flys Amarr what is wrong with their ships. Once once you fly a non-handicaped lasership like a nightmare then you relise how broken the rest of Amarr are. Have you flown a nightmare? Before the nightmare fix, people like you would accuse me of calling all laserships useless. However, I broke the thread by being the FIRST person to congratulate CCP on putting a lasership in eve that is actually good. Think about it - Nightmare vs Paladin. One ship is highly competitive, the other is not. The nightmare would be as crippled as the paladin were it not for the nightmares 15-20% extra grid, which removes the need for fitting mods, allowing players to use cap mods, tracking mods or heatsinks. In other words - actually allowing the players to use their slots, insted of the fakeslot scenario. If I was whining for the sake of whining, then why am I congratulating the Nightmare lasership? You see, I am being brutally honest in calling a brick a brick. I have given lots of constructive solutions. However, this thread, just like the other 100 page Amarr thread, gets ignored. The real troll is people like yourself who have probebly never flown a Nightmare and paladin side by side to see how horribly imbalanced the ships are due to the handicaped way Amarr ships are designed. I love the Resturant that is CCP. However, my Amarr Cola is Flat. Shoudl I drink flat cola? Or should I tell the waiter to get me a fizzy drink? Your right i never flown a Paladin or a Nightmare, but i bet all my ISK on that you didn¦t yourself. But i flown the Ships that are not so good(Maller, Omen, Prophecy) mutch. So I can make a statement from a low SP Point on my Alt. And I also flown Minmatar and Galente and I know how to compare ship/shipclass/usebility. Sorry where is your solution? You are only hoping on a bandwagon that combes by and agree 100% you did not make a real solution(in balance/rolechange way -> not in yust boost all +25%). Since you post all this with an Alt(no standing, not online and I got you in the Buddylist for some days) this all leads to one point. You have no balls to post that with a main because you know you are posting ****. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.24 23:31:00 - [1026] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 24/12/2007 23:32:18 Originally by: The Djego Your right i never flown a Paladin or a Nightmare, but i bet all my ISK on that you didn¦t yourself. But i flown the Ships that are not so good(Maller, Omen, Prophecy) mutch. So I can make a statement from a low SP Point on my Alt. And I also flown Minmatar and Galente and I know how to compare ship/shipclass/usebility. Sorry where is your solution? You are only hoping on a bandwagon that combes by and agree 100% you did not make a real solution(in balance/rolechange way -> not in yust boost all +25%). Since you post all this with an Alt(no standing, not online and I got you in the Buddylist for some days) this all leads to one point. You have no balls to post that with a main because you know you are posting ***. 1 - You have never flown Paladin or Nightmare. Yet you talk on balance of Lasers as a whole 2 - Your Knowledge of Amarr is limited to low sp alt who can use cruisers, as you also fly Gallente/Minmatar 3 - You are unable to make reccomendations on balance when you dont have something to compare like for like. 4 - You lack arguments, therefore you play the old "you are a alt Card". This does not refrain from the key argument. Please fly Nightmare side by side with Paladin and Abaddon and any other Amarr lasership. Then come back to this discussion. We are talking about laserships that work (Nightmare) vs laserships that dont work (Pretty much the rest). Remember - Prior to Nightmare fix, people like you would call me whining at lasers for the sake of lasers. Why am I saying good things about nightmare if I am whining for the sake of it? The reason is simple - Anyone who flys a Nightmare and Paladin and knows PvP (long and short range) will know exactly what is wrong with Amarr vs Sansha. Sansha got it right - Granted, lasers still lack range, but at least the Sansha are competitive laserships. The almost half gallente tracking of Amarr is improved by Sansha's tracking bonus. Again - Sansha have competitive Laserships, Amarr still are not. That is my argument - The sansha cola is fizzy, and the Amarr cola is flat. To the person who has NEVER TASTED both cola's, they both look the same at a distence - Do you see where I am going with this now? There will always be a Chuck Norris wannabe who will claim* that "OMG my ship is gut!". There are pilots out there that are convinced that a Dual heavy laser Apoc is the best battleship out there. My answer is simple. If your ship is so good, then why do all other races have a better one? Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Chango	Posted - 2007.12.24 23:42:00 - [1027] I enjoyed this topic greatly.
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.24 23:43:00 - [1028] Edited by: The Djego on 24/12/2007 23:45:31 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 24/12/2007 23:32:18 Originally by: The Djego Your right i never flown a Paladin or a Nightmare, but i bet all my ISK on that you didn¦t yourself. But i flown the Ships that are not so good(Maller, Omen, Prophecy) mutch. So I can make a statement from a low SP Point on my Alt. And I also flown Minmatar and Galente and I know how to compare ship/shipclass/usebility. Sorry where is your solution? You are only hoping on a bandwagon that combes by and agree 100% you did not make a real solution(in balance/rolechange way -> not in yust boost all +25%). Since you post all this with an Alt(no standing, not online and I got you in the Buddylist for some days) this all leads to one point. You have no balls to post that with a main because you know you are posting ****. flame I have preaty maxed out Galente Skills, and can fly Minmatar to a deacend Level. My Alt can fly BS and with account of a frind I flown Amarr BS and I know how it is. I can compare Ships and if you are think Abaddon and Gedon are underpowered you are yust stupid. Show me your kills in a Nightmare or STFU. Simply as this. Any one how know me can agree that im a person that get things rolling and I don¦t mind to loose ships in PVP and im agressive. I had a 5 Minute Battle with my Alt in a Puni vs Puni against a Player with 10x SP of my Alt. I survied a 6 vs 1 on my Main with 2 Kills without Stabs or Nanos. You realy think Im to stupid in PVP? SHUT UP!!! Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Rigid Phallic	Posted - 2007.12.24 23:47:00 - [1029] Edited by: Rigid Phallic on 24/12/2007 23:51:46 Edited by: Rigid Phallic on 24/12/2007 23:49:35 Edited by: Rigid Phallic on 24/12/2007 23:48:36 Then why fly an Amarr ship in those situations then? Those setups are substandard to other races. I mean, you can fit projectiles to a raven, but then the ship remains uncompetitive. Do you see where I am going with this? yes your correct there you can fit projectiles on a raven, but listen carefully because you missed the point by about a 100AU, a raven doesnt need projectiles because its fine with missiles, see were i am going with this....?
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.24 23:48:00 - [1030] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 24/12/2007 23:49:32 Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 24/12/2007 23:32:18 Originally by: The Djego Your right i never flown a Paladin or a Nightmare, but i bet all my ISK on that you didn¦t yourself. But i flown the Ships that are not so good(Maller, Omen, Prophecy) mutch. So I can make a statement from a low SP Point on my Alt. And I also flown Minmatar and Galente and I know how to compare ship/shipclass/usebility. Sorry where is your solution? You are only hoping on a bandwagon that combes by and agree 100% you did not make a real solution(in balance/rolechange way -> not in yust boost all +25%). Since you post all this with an Alt(no standing, not online and I got you in the Buddylist for some days) this all leads to one point. You have no balls to post that with a main because you know you are posting ****. flame I have preaty maxed out Galente Skills, and can fly Minmatar to a deacend Level. My Alt can fly BS and with account of a frind I flown Amarr BS and I know how it is. I can compare Ships and if you are think Abaddon and Gedon are underpowered you are yust stupid. Show me your kills in a Nightmare or STFU. Simply as this. Any one how know me that im a person that get things rolling and I don¦t mind to loose ships in PVP im agressive. I had a 5 Minute Battle with my Alt in a Puni vs Puni against a Player with 10x SP of my Alt. I survied a 6 vs 1 on my Main with 2 Kills without Stabs or Nanos. You realy think Im to stupid in PVP? SHUT UP!!! So the truth comes out.... Maxed Gallente Skills, never flown the Ships that we are talking about, now comparing your pvp prowess with a "1v1 Puni v Puni" etc etc. And you now claim that you fly Amarr BS with your friends Account? Oh and Merry Christmas Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)

Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.24 23:55:00 - [1031] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 24/12/2007 23:55:49 Originally by: Rigid Phallic Originally by: Jonny JoJo Then why fly an Amarr ship in those situations then? Those setups are substandard to other races. I mean, you can fit projectiles to a raven, but then the ship remains uncompetitive. Do you see where I am going with this? yes your correct there you can fit projectiles on a raven, but listen carefully because you missed the point by about a 100AU, a raven doesnt need projectiles because its fine with missiles, see were i am going with this....? Exactly my Point. So why should Amarr fit Projectiles onto Laserships? Whats the logic there, unless there is a serious imbalance? Remember - people used to fit Lasers to Ravens...... Last time there was a serious Laser imbalance. The Key thing is being competitive. If your own weapons are not competitive, then they and/or the ship needs to be looked at to make it competitive. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.24 23:58:00 - [1032] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 24/12/2007 23:49:32 Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 24/12/2007 23:32:18 Originally by: The Djego Your right i never flown a Paladin or a Nightmare, but i bet all my ISK on that you didn¦t yourself. But i flown the Ships that are not so good(Maller, Omen, Prophecy) mutch. So I can make a statement from a low SP Point on my Alt. And I also flown Minmatar and Galente and I know how to compare ship/shipclass/usebility. Sorry where is your solution? You are only hoping on a bandwagon that combes by and agree 100% you did not make a real solution(in balance/rolechange way -> not in yust boost all +25%). Since you post all this with an Alt(no standing, not online and I got you in the Buddylist for some days) this all leads to one point. You have no balls to post that with a main because you know you are posting ****. flame I have preaty maxed out Galente Skills, and can fly Minmatar to a deacend Level. My Alt can fly BS and with account of a frind I flown Amarr BS and I know how it is. I can compare Ships and if you are think Abaddon and Gedon are underpowered you are yust stupid. Show me your kills in a Nightmare or STFU. Simply as this. Any one how know me that im a person that get things rolling and I don¦t mind to loose ships in PVP im agressive. I had a 5 Minute Battle with my Alt in a Puni vs Puni against a Player with 10x SP of my Alt. I survied a 6 vs 1 on my Main with 2 Kills without Stabs or Nanos. You realy think Im to stupid in PVP? SHUT UP!!! So the truth comes out.... Maxed Gallente Skills, never flown the Ships that we are talking about, now comparing your pvp prowess with a "1v1 Puni v Puni" etc etc. And you now claim that you fly Amarr BS with your friends Account? Oh and Merry Christmas I maxed out Galente Skills because I love the Gank and never flown the Nosdomi or the Nanoishtar because I don¦t care about I win buttons. Check out Project Mythan II and you know what I do. Supid Alt post. Can you claim anything. No. While I can and I fown Amarr Ships a lot. Can you prove me you did. No. I think so. Get lost. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.25 00:01:00 - [1033] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 25/12/2007 00:05:58 Originally by: The Djego btw by reading gut -> If you are german(like me) this makes me sad. Come to the german Forums where you would be kicked in now time by the Mods. The same mods who broke their own privacy statement by releasing IP details of its members to rival alliances to identify Players who have alts via german eve-o site? Yes, some people have very gut memories But this is not a discussion of the past, this is about discussing the future. Anyhow - There is no point in you trolling. Focus on the topic, stuff about other forums does not need to go in this thread. There is no point insulting me. Please fight my argument by somehow proving that a Nightmare is not a better lasership than a Paladin. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.25 00:05:00 - [1034] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 25/12/2007 00:03:30 Originally by: The Djego btw by reading gut -> If you are german(like me) this makes me sad. Come to the german Forums where you would be kicked in now time by the Mods. The same mods who broke their own privacy statement by releasing IP details of its members to rival alliances to identify Players who have alts via german eve-o site? Yes, some people have very gut memories But this is not a discussion of the past, this is about discussing the future. Anyhow - There is no point in you trolling. Focus on the topic, stuff about what happened in the past does not need to go in this thread. yust lol i know some of the mods ingame and chat with them a lot like Femaref or Pete Stalker profe or STFU. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.25 00:08:00 - [1035] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 25/12/2007 00:12:02 Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 25/12/2007 00:03:30 Originally by: The Djego btw by reading gut -> If you are german(like me) this makes me sad. Come to the german Forums where you would be kicked in now time by the Mods. The same mods who broke their own privacy statement by releasing IP details of its members to rival alliances to identify Players who have alts via german eve-o site? Yes, some people have very gut memories But this is not a discussion of the past, this is about discussing the future. Anyhow - There is no point in you trolling. Focus on the topic, stuff about what happened in the past does not need to go in this thread. yust lol i know some of the mods ingame and chat with them a lot like Femaref or Pete Stalker profe or STFU. So just because you cannot discuss rationally the reasons why I am saying that a Nightmare is better than a Paladin, you are going to ge the mods to hunt me down? Look - you are trying to get this thread locked. Please focus on the discussion of Lasership. Tell your David Hasselhoff/Chuck Norris of mods to fit a Amarr BS and come for showdown! Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.25 00:16:00 - [1036] You put this on the table not me, I chat with a Mod of the Forum because we lived in the same area for some time and because of a war we chated mutch so we meet eatch other bevore he became a MOD. Send me a PM with a Killmail on the german Forums or STFU. If you are a Carcal alt don¦t mind you are pointless anyway. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.25 00:34:00 - [1037] Originally by: Jonny JoJo You already admited that you have never flown a Nightmare or Paladin, have pvp experience of 1v1 punisher v punisher alt freindly battle, claim to use a freinds account for Amarr battleship and also state that you have Max gallente Skills and decent Minmatar skills but have a "low SP" Amarr alt. And this is how you balance in this discussion? I thought it was clear from a glance that the Nightmare was a better ship than the Paladin. Sure there's occasionally surprises, but it seemed so obvious... who knows, maybe I'm right! And FYI Johnny (god your trolling annoys me on occasion) Goum's had some pretty decent ideas for rebalancing the Amarrian race. He'd be insufferable if any of them ever got implemented though. -Liang -- Gain Forum Fame Now! Want To Trade Liang Nuren For Your Character! Post in the thread or send me an Evemail. ^_
Salmash	Posted - 2007.12.25 01:00:00 - [1038] Edited by: Salmash on 25/12/2007 01:02:53 /singed /singid /songed hower the hell u wanner spell it. i am all for the amarr boost, heres an idear just make armarr allys with the jove and let us be uber again edit: merry kissmeass amarr
Vasili Z Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.12.25 01:05:00 - [1039] /not signed Amarr ships are fine, stop whining, I fly every race of recons, command ships, hacs, frigs w/e, they're fine, stop whining. ------- Everything I say represents my corporation and their views.
Naias	Posted - 2007.12.25 01:37:00 - [1040] Edited by: Naias on 25/12/2007 01:42:49 Edited by: Naias on 25/12/2007 01:42:16 Edited by: Naias on 25/12/2007 01:40:07 Edited by: Naias on 25/12/2007 01:38:16 The Maller for example is one of those ships that really really need a boost. It competes with the Moa for suckiness but at least the Moa can snipe and do something useful. The Maller can either do laughable dps with a paper tank (it does far less dps than any other T1 cruiser) or fit plates and a repairer and do pathetic dps, sucking its own cap away... Maller dps with max skills and using pulse lasers II (which use over 90% of its grid) is just 181... and 156 when downgrading to focused pulse II's. Even the Omen, the so-called dps cruiser is third last as far as T1 cruiser dps goes, barely beating the Caracal who has four times its range... What sucks is that to make use of the 25% to all resistances bonus, the Maller HAS to downgrade its guns to focused medium pulses II and then has just enough grid for 2x 400mm plates. The damage/tanking capability is totally screwed at this point, with the top damage dealers Thorax and Rupture dealing 2 to 3 times the Maller's dps while the Maller barely getting 30% more effective hp through this... The Rupture for example can fit a 1600mm plate, reaching almost 16k effective hp and dealing 341 dps. The Maller with the previously mentioned setup has 14.7k effective hp, does 156 dps and its guns use cap. Before someone starts talking about falloff, the Rupture still outdamages the Maller at its optimal. Last but not least, the Rupture can to some degree change its damage type, while the Maller can't. Yes, this was written with the help of EFT, call me whatever you want but it's blatantly obvious that there is a huge discrepance between the Maller&Moa and the other cruisers, no matter how you turn and twist it. PS: i fly Minmatar and Gallente. Only reason i post this is because i don't like big imbalances to stay in the game.

insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.25 09:15:00 - [1041] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Troll? It is pretty obvious to anyone who flys Amarr what is wrong with their ships. This is true. Almost everyone in this thread agrees that there are issues. What we disagree on (CLEARLY) is specifically what those issues are or even how to address them. Originally by: Jonny JoJo Once once you fly a non-handicaped lasership like a nightmare then you relise how broken the rest of Amarr are. This is an absurd comment. Condemning an entire series of ships would be one thing, but you're damning the entire race at every level. You don't need to fly certain ships to realize there is a problem, it's already painfully obvious. Originally by: Jonny JoJo Have you flown a nightmare? Before the nightmare fix, people like you would accuse me of calling all laserships useless. However, I broke the thread by being the FIRST person to congratulate CCP on putting a lasership in eve that is actually good. Think about it - Nightmare vs Paladin. One ship is highly competitive, the other is not. I have not flown a nightmare, but I am very surprised that they put it out there. Part of the problem is that you are condemning an entire race based on a brand new t2 battleship and what is actually a faction marauder which is really comparing apples to oranges. I can't believe that you still don't agree with the SIMPLE approach of my 'fixing lasers' idea that most people generally agree upon (fix laser fittings, fix laser cap usage, give amarr ships a real bonus) and would rather demand a clearly unbalanced solution based on a faction marauder. To make it worse, you demand this across the entire race, and on top of that exclusively for that race. Originally by: Jonny JoJo The nightmare would be as crippled as the paladin were it not for the nightmares 15-20% extra grid, which removes the need for fitting mods, allowing players to use cap mods, tracking mods or heatsinks. In other words - actually allowing the players to use their slots, insted of the fakeslot scenario. With all due respect, there are MANY MANY ships that have fitting problems across ALL races. I am not saying that this means that any of them should be ignored, least of all amarr, but once again the simple 'fix lasers' approach addresses almost all of your concerns and yet you don't embrace it. You claim to have put forward various solutions to the issues, but frankly they (and this one in particular) are extreme in many regards. They are in general overpowered, often lack any weaknesses, open new issues, and a tremendous amount of work for the devs. Obviously I think that 'my' solution is the right one, and I respect that you are trying various ideas, but you need to accept the fact that proposed solutions need to be as easy to implement as possible, be as truly balanced as possible, preferrably keep amarr unique and have some kind of weakness/counter. Resorting to demanding that all amarr ships be promoted to faction level status definitely does not follow much of that criteria. =)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.25 09:44:00 - [1042] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 25/12/2007 09:53:28 Originally by: insidion Originally by: Jonny JoJo Have you flown a nightmare? Before the nightmare fix, people like you would accuse me of calling all laserships useless. However, I broke the thread by being the FIRST person to congratulate CCP on putting a lasership in eve that is actually good. Think about it - Nightmare vs Paladin. One ship is highly competitive, the other is not. I have not flown a nightmare, but I am very surprised that they put it out there. Part of the problem is that you are condemning an entire race based on a brand new t2 battleship and what is actually a faction marauder which is really comparing apples to oranges. I can't believe that you still don't agree with the SIMPLE approach of my 'fixing lasers' idea that most people generally agree upon (fix laser fittings, fix laser cap usage, give amarr ships a real bonus) and would rather demand a clearly unbalanced solution based on a faction marauder. To make it worse, you demand this across the entire race, and on top of that exclusively for that race. Eh? Do you even read my posts in this thread? I have said time and time again - the same things - Either fix laser fittings/cap usage/give amarr real bonus - or insted remodel their ships around the existing modules to be *Competitive*. I have made at least 5 posts in this thread saying that. The name of the game is to make Amarr lasership competitive, and the Nightmare is the only competitive one. Someone may turn around and say "OMG Geddon = win", but thats not comparing SP with SP. A lvl4 Mega pilot can compete with a lvl5 maxout Geddon, but thats already been discussed 20 pages ago. Paladin and Nightmare are brought in for a reason - both share same methodology. One has more mids and more grid. And the Paladin that has less grid/mids needs fitting mods, damage mods, tracking mods and tank all in the same row. In other words - Amarr have lots of fakeslots which is very uncompetite (some Amarr pilots using 2-3 RCU's in setups), and this is only visable when compared to a ship that has none of these issues. CCP remodeled the Nightmare around lasers, and guess what- they did a great job. So they should continue this good work ann remodel other laserships to be competitive. Either that or fix lasers, which it is obvious they have no plans on doing. People like you who have never seen a Nightmare just dont understand the difference it makes. I want Amarr laserships to be Competitive. Not overpowered, but Competitive Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
BtHatch Boli Me Kurc	Posted - 2007.12.25 10:41:00 - [1043] I generally see only two problems with amarr, but they are hurting us a lot... - Amarr's focus on EM damage - Lack of powergrid on certain ships I thought devs would realize something is wrong, when best weapons to be fitted on apoc are projectiles. (no cap use, less pg use and all damage types)
ArmagedonLT coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.25 12:22:00 - [1044] /signed i've been flying amarr for almost 3 years now i'm pure amarr and i know how hard is to be amarr :S
Titus Lewis	Posted - 2007.12.25 13:47:00 - [1045] Theres way to many dev replies in here. All the blue lines makes it hard to read.
Naias	Posted - 2007.12.25 14:15:00 - [1046] Maller with 5x 425mm II autocannons: 143 dps, at the cost of 693 grid and 93 cpu. 1.5 optimal with 10k falloff. Maller with 5x focused medium pulse II lasers: 156 dps, at the cost of 594 grid and 108 cpu, as well as 5.1 cap/second. 7.5k optimal with 5k falloff. Max skills of course. Is it worth using lasers for the small dps and range increase? 5.1 cap/sec is about half the natural recharge. In any case the dps is pathetic. A rupture with 4x dual 1800mm II and 2x HAM II's does 341 with drones, has 50 grid less, 50 cpu more and 60 mbit bandwidth and is faster. The Maller has half the recharge rate of the Ruppie but extra 312 cap, which means in fights that last longer than at most a minute the Ruppie will also have cap advantage. Note: i have nothing against the Rupture, i'm just using this fine ship to show how badly the Maller compares to it.
Yazmina	Posted - 2007.12.25 16:53:00 - [1047] I completely agree with this post. I am gallente that flies amarr ships. Dont ask why, but I just like the idea of not needing ammo for the lasers and I love the look of the amarr ships. Regardless i am hooked on them. I have noticed that lasers are much weaker than the other weapons as I have used blaster/rails vs. lasers. It is much more cap intensive than it needs to be. The fitting is also rediculous. Ships need more than 2 or 3 mid slots to be effective at anything. Please boost lasers and the amarr fleet to even things out a bit. Amarr REALLY need it.
Valadeya uthanaras Killjoy.	Posted - 2007.12.25 19:00:00 - [1048] Originally by: Naias Edited by: Naias on 25/12/2007 15:00:47 Maller with 5x 425mm II autocannons: 143 dps, at the cost of 693 grid and 93 cpu. 1.5 optimal with 10k falloff. Maller with 5x focused medium pulse II lasers: 156 dps, at the cost of 594 grid and 108 cpu, as well as 5.1 cap/second. 7.5k optimal with 5k falloff. Max skills of course. Is it worth using lasers for the small dps and range increase? 5.1 cap/sec is about half the natural recharge. THAT is exactly what make it stupidly easy to see how broken laser are, 5.1 cap per second on cruiser size....... that the cap running several mods takes......WITH TOP SKILLS!!!! AND ITS HALF , HALF of the top recharge ....... NO DRONE , NO SPEED , dam how can people not see how broken the maller, prophecie, apocalypse, punisher, or [insert laser bonused amarr ship name] are broken I still beleive that the nos solution is one of so many that can be made to put amarr back on a competitive level, TO all the people saying Geddon is fine, OR abaddon is fine, look around a little.... the megathron do better than the geddon, as proved 2 pages before, and the gap increase even more when EM damage ration for laser is taken in account Abaddon do fine......for 2 mins......then it have to wait for 5 mins to keep the capacitor recharging......and it DOES NOT make sense When it come to beam laser, dam they should have the cap and grid use of blaster, they ARE the long range blaster , not crazy self neuting guns Think about it, everyone is fine with the cap use and the way blaster work, high DPS for lowest range BEAM have same dps than other turret once the EM RATIO is taken in account....for 10x more the cap use(unbonused) than railgun...and THEY HAVE THE LOWEST RANGE!!!! jesus i am getting sick of all the gallente and minmatarr getting in the thread to try to get it locked, how can you blalantly blind yourself to the first page, and many othere spread sheet stats that were given??? Valadeya BUFF AMARR not competing like we are atm ..... is stupid imbalance that give the gave a real gap in credibility EVEN more when many people blind themself to easy stast
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.25 20:40:00 - [1049] Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras stuff 1. The Maller is a ship that needs a boost agree. 2. Gedon puts out more Damage on Paper, proved some pages ago with a comparebal fitting. Also it has a mutch bigger Range(Optimal) that is a huge advantage in a Gang. The Mega needs Cap for the MWD to get in Range and can start to fire later. In a 1o1 the Mega will beat the Gedon, in 2 Gedons vs 2 Megas it is the other Way around. Afterall you compare a Tier 1 BS with a Tier 2 BS. 3. Tachyon II need about 95 Cap raw 425er II need 30 in thats more like 3 times more, not 10 times. After a Cap Reduction Bonus it is more like 1.8 times more. Also they do more Damage if you take into Account that other Sniping Ships have most likly not a full Omnitank. 4. Abaddon can hold itself in PVP very deacend. It is based around Puls not Beam Lasers. I even posted a Fitting how you can fit it for Sniping without running out of Cap in a few minutes. The Ship is very deacend in PVP both in Gank and Tank at the same time. The reduced Cap lifeframe is a tradeoff. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.25 21:10:00 - [1050] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Jonny JoJo You already admited that you have never flown a Nightmare or Paladin, have pvp experience of 1v1 punisher v punisher alt freindly battle, claim to use a freinds account for Amarr battleship and also state that you have Max gallente Skills and decent Minmatar skills but have a "low SP" Amarr alt. And this is how you balance in this discussion? I thought it was clear from a glance that the Nightmare was a better ship than the Paladin. Sure there's occasionally surprises, but it seemed so obvious... who knows, maybe I'm right! And FYI Johnny (god your trolling annoys me on occasion) Goum's had some pretty decent ideas for rebalancing the Amarrian race. He'd be insufferable if any of them ever got implemented though. -Liang Please, im insufferable now

Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.12.25 22:21:00 - [1051] Originally by: Yazmina I completely agree with this post. I am gallente that flies amarr ships. Dont ask why, but I just like the idea of not needing ammo for the lasers and I love the look of the amarr ships. Regardless i am hooked on them. I have noticed that lasers are much weaker than the other weapons as I have used blaster/rails vs. lasers. It is much more cap intensive than it needs to be. The fitting is also rediculous. Ships need more than 2 or 3 mid slots to be effective at anything. Please boost lasers and the amarr fleet to even things out a bit. Amarr REALLY need it. Too bad the balance devs never touched a laser in their lives. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Kai Nah Caldari Flying Guard of EVE	Posted - 2007.12.25 23:14:00 - [1052] /signed ------ Looking for the ability to change my char to Amarr <_<... (Amarr > Rest)
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.25 23:27:00 - [1053] Originally by: Naias Edited by: Naias on 25/12/2007 01:42:49 Edited by: Naias on 25/12/2007 01:42:16 Edited by: Naias on 25/12/2007 01:40:07 Edited by: Naias on 25/12/2007 01:38:16 The Maller for example is one of those ships that really really need a boost. It competes with the Moa for suckiness but at least the Moa can snipe and do something useful. The Maller can either do laughable dps with a paper tank (it does far less dps than any other T1 cruiser) or fit plates and a repairer and do pathetic dps, sucking its own cap away... Maller dps with max skills and using pulse lasers II (which use over 90% of its grid) is just 181... and 156 when downgrading to focused pulse II's. Even the Omen, the so-called dps cruiser is third last as far as T1 cruiser dps goes, barely beating the Caracal who has four times its range... What sucks is that to make use of the 25% to all resistances bonus, the Maller HAS to downgrade its guns to focused medium pulses II and then has just enough grid for 2x 400mm plates. The damage/tanking capability is totally screwed at this point, with the top damage dealers Thorax and Rupture dealing 2 to 3 times the Maller's dps while the Maller barely getting 30% more effective hp through this... The Rupture for example can fit a 1600mm plate, reaching almost 16k effective hp and dealing 341 dps. The Maller with the previously mentioned setup has 14.7k effective hp, does 156 dps and its guns use cap. Before someone starts talking about falloff, the Rupture still outdamages the Maller at its optimal. Last but not least, the Rupture can to some degree change its damage type, while the Maller can't. Yes, this was written with the help of EFT, call me whatever you want but it's blatantly obvious that there is a huge discrepance between the Maller&Moa and the other cruisers, no matter how you turn and twist it. PS: i fly Minmatar and Gallente. Only reason i post this is because i don't like big imbalances to stay in the game. Why does everyone forget about the Augoror? Hm... 3 turret slots, no damage bonus, 5m^3 dronebay... And PvP? 2 medslots One prime example of one really outclassed ship. IMHO it could use a 10 m^3 or even 15 m^3 dronebay without breaking any balance in this game whatsoever. Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up*
flung dung	Posted - 2007.12.26 04:02:00 - [1054] i see once again ccp aint got the balls to admit the mistakes, no reply lots of disgruntled customers plenty of solutions, ideas passion for the game. ever get the feeling your being ignored, at least a stfu would be helpful
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.12.26 05:35:00 - [1055] Originally by: flung dung i see once again ccp aint got the balls to admit the mistakes, no reply lots of disgruntled customers plenty of solutions, ideas passion for the game. ever get the feeling your being ignored, at least a stfu would be helpful They are claiming they are going to look at it for the upcoming boost patch. But what really ****es me off is that they basically said there is nothing wrong with amarr as a whole but only with a few ships, wich utterly wrong. Eventhough some ships might perform competetive doesnt mean that the system they are using isnt broken. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.26 07:06:00 - [1056] Originally by: Blutreiter Why does everyone forget about the Augoror? Hm... 3 turret slots, no damage bonus, 5m^3 dronebay... And PvP? 2 medslots One prime example of one really outclassed ship. IMHO it could use a 10 m^3 or even 15 m^3 dronebay without breaking any balance in this game whatsoever. The augoror is a logistics cruiser, its just fine. Always a welcome sight on big ol POS shooting fleet ops.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.26 07:31:00 - [1057] Originally by: The Djego Paladin/Nightmare is out of the window and not on topic. The Idea was on the Table 1 Month ago by Gumindong with real point of changing Amarr Ships not youst they are better make amarr like them. What in the world does this say/mean? Quote: I pointed out the Punisher 1o1 because It was pure fun and a very awsome Amarr PVP experience The punisher is an awesome Amarr pvp experience? The punisher is terrible. Its only advantage is when it doesnt have a propulsion mod on... Think about that for a moment. Quote: You put this on the table not me, I chat with a Mod of the Forum because we lived in the same area for some time and because of a war we chated mutch so we meet eatch other bevore he became a MOD. Send me a PM with a Killmail on the german Forums or STFU. If you are a Carcal alt don¦t mind you are pointless anyway The "German Forums" werent run by CCP, but by a fan site that was affiliated with an alliance. They indeed used IP logs to ferret out a spy in an alliance. You ought to be able to google that. Originally by: Naias Yes, this was written with the help of EFT, call me whatever you want but it's blatantly obvious that there is a huge discrepance between the Maller&Moa and the other cruisers, no matter how you turn and twist it. The Moa is actually pretty decent, even in the short range. It takes a bunch of different skills, and is a bit counter-intuitive, but since shield rigs do not reduce speed, its still a powerful little ship. Especially now with the agility boost to Caldari ships making them very agile; try: 4x Electron, 2x HAM MWD, web, scram, LSE DCII, mfs, mfs, mfs [rigs=2 em, 1 therm shield resist if you spring for them] 3x Hobgoblin II Stats are: SPD: 1472[plated cruiser(that isnt a rupture) speed DPS: 412[Faction AM, Faction HAMs] EHP: 19,945[no rigs], 24179[rigs] Fits easily with all t2 modules and AWU 1 The Moa isnt great, but comparing it to a Maller or Omen is just mean. Originally by: insidion and would rather demand a clearly unbalanced solution based on a faction marauder. Why is it "clearly unbalanced"? If anything it allows more strict control of ship ability. Originally by: Jonny JoJo Paladin and Nightmare are brought in for a reason - both share same methodology. One has more mids and more grid. And the Paladin that has less grid/mids needs fitting mods, damage mods, tracking mods and tank all in the same row. What? The Paladin is fantastic, easily the second best Mission runner. It has high damage, good tracking, and plenty of range. If it didnt have the ECM vulnerability it would be an extreemly deadly ship on all fronts. Granted, its rep bonus isnt as beneficial to Amarr ships as a resist bonus, but its got plenty of fitting to fit either a sniping or pulse setup, and tonnes of DPS to boot. You can fit 4 Tachyon IIs on it with no fitting mods. With an RCU, its enough to put a rep on. With MPII you have some 6000 powergrid left after the guns[almost enough for a booster, mwd, and 2 lars] Originally by: The Djego 2. Gedon puts out more Damage on Paper, proved here with a comparebal fitting. Also it has a mutch bigger Range(Optimal) that is a huge advantage in a Gang. The Mega needs Cap for the MWD to get in Range and can start to fire later. In a 1o1 the Mega will beat the Gedon, in 2 Gedons vs 2 Megas it is the other Way around. Afterall you compare a Tier 1 BS with a Tier 2 BS. No, after all, you compare a gang battleship with a solo battleship[in essense]. Tier is a bad balancing mechanism.
Naias	Posted - 2007.12.26 11:46:00 - [1058] Goumindoung I admit comparing the Moa to the Maller is a bad comparison. At first glance they both have similar problems (fitting and dps) but in the end the Moa can still field a usable setup. The only half usable setup I could come up with for the Maller is frigate sized guns and lots of plates... but that's a gimmick fitting in my book. Anyway, what disturbs me that for newer players there isn't a single Amarr ship that's competitive untill the Harbinger. There is the Arbitrator but it's not good untill you get at least half a milion sp in Drones, something that a newer player won't have for quite some time. The Punisher lacks a medslot to be competitive. Its fourth highslot hass also become less useful with the nos change. -1 high slot, +1 med slot and perhaps a slight cpu boost should fix it. The Inquisitor should be turned into the starter frigate for the Khanid line of ships. +1 launcher hardpoint, -1 low slot, +1 med slot. Bonuses changed to +5% rocket damage per level and +5% cap recharge per level. About the Omen and Maller enough has been said. That leaves the Prophecy. It's basically an oversized Maller, not quite as terrible but still lacking. Then again, the other tier 1 battlecruisers are also somewhat lacking. It's disturbing though that just like on the Maller, the best setups for the Prophecy use projectile turrets or frigate sized guns. Reeks of design failure to me when a ship isn't good with the guns it was given bonuses for.
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.26 14:33:00 - [1059] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Blutreiter Why does everyone forget about the Augoror? Hm... 3 turret slots, no damage bonus, 5m^3 dronebay... And PvP? 2 medslots One prime example of one really outclassed ship. IMHO it could use a 10 m^3 or even 15 m^3 dronebay without breaking any balance in this game whatsoever. The augoror is a logistics cruiser, its just fine. Always a welcome sight on big ol POS shooting fleet ops. And it's still the weakest t1 cruiser you can buy The only reason to field an Augoror atm is to fuel an Abaddon maybe... (hooray lasers munch cap like cops do donuts!) Exequoror gets 40m^3 dronebay and 4 turrets Osprey gets 3 launchers, 2 turrets, 20m^3 dronebay Scythe gets 3 turrets, 2 launchers and 5m^3 dronebay... meh I still say 10m^3 or 15m^3 would be nice to even it out a little bit. Maybe stick with 10m^3 bandwidth and a 20m^3 dronebay. Thoughts? Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up*
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2007.12.26 14:51:00 - [1060] Originally by: Blutreiter Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Blutreiter Why does everyone forget about the Augoror? Hm... 3 turret slots, no damage bonus, 5m^3 dronebay... And PvP? 2 medslots One prime example of one really outclassed ship. IMHO it could use a 10 m^3 or even 15 m^3 dronebay without breaking any balance in this game whatsoever. The augoror is a logistics cruiser, its just fine. Always a welcome sight on big ol POS shooting fleet ops. And it's still the weakest t1 cruiser you can buy The only reason to field an Augoror atm is to fuel an Abaddon maybe... (hooray lasers munch cap like cops do donuts!) Exequoror gets 40m^3 dronebay and 4 turrets Osprey gets 3 launchers, 2 turrets, 20m^3 dronebay Scythe gets 3 turrets, 2 launchers and 5m^3 dronebay... meh I still say 10m^3 or 15m^3 would be nice to even it out a little bit. Maybe stick with 10m^3 bandwidth and a 20m^3 dronebay. Thoughts? LMAO your comparing damage potential (turret/missile and drones) of logistics cruisers and fail to mention how it gets a HP bonus where the others get such a great combat bonus that helps Mining... Would it be more useful if it had the mining bonus rather than HP bonus? Talk about daft comparison, cap transfer is more useful than tracking link, I mean the only reason to field a Scythe is to overcome another ships only weakness by increasing the crap range/tracking of there weapons .

Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2007.12.26 14:54:00 - [1061] Posting nothing constructive in an insanely long thread because my GFX card on teh lappy can't handle anything 3D atm. Very upsetting. ATI x1400 FTL. _____________________________ Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.26 16:05:00 - [1062] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Originally by: Blutreiter And it's still the weakest t1 cruiser you can buy The only reason to field an Augoror atm is to fuel an Abaddon maybe... (hooray lasers munch cap like cops do donuts!) Exequoror gets 40m^3 dronebay and 4 turrets Osprey gets 3 launchers, 2 turrets, 20m^3 dronebay Scythe gets 3 turrets, 2 launchers and 5m^3 dronebay... meh I still say 10m^3 or 15m^3 would be nice to even it out a little bit. Maybe stick with 10m^3 bandwidth and a 20m^3 dronebay. Thoughts? LMAO your comparing damage potential (turret/missile and drones) of logistics cruisers and fail to mention how it gets a HP bonus where the others get such a great combat bonus that helps Mining... Would it be more useful if it had the mining bonus rather than HP bonus? Talk about daft comparison, cap transfer is more useful than tracking link, I mean the only reason to field a Scythe is to overcome another ships only weakness by increasing the crap range/tracking of there weapons . While a scythe still has 50 m/s more BASE speed, which is almost 30% more than an augoror has and also doesn't use the highslots for it's EW bonus, meaning you can still use tracking links for your fleet (hint: more tracking against nanos) and use all 5 highslots for anti-support. Yes, the HP bonus on the augoror is nice but it's still lacking in my opinion. Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up*
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2007.12.26 17:35:00 - [1063] Originally by: Blutreiter Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Originally by: Blutreiter And it's still the weakest t1 cruiser you can buy The only reason to field an Augoror atm is to fuel an Abaddon maybe... (hooray lasers munch cap like cops do donuts!) Exequoror gets 40m^3 dronebay and 4 turrets Osprey gets 3 launchers, 2 turrets, 20m^3 dronebay Scythe gets 3 turrets, 2 launchers and 5m^3 dronebay... meh I still say 10m^3 or 15m^3 would be nice to even it out a little bit. Maybe stick with 10m^3 bandwidth and a 20m^3 dronebay. Thoughts? LMAO your comparing damage potential (turret/missile and drones) of logistics cruisers and fail to mention how it gets a HP bonus where the others get such a great combat bonus that helps Mining... Would it be more useful if it had the mining bonus rather than HP bonus? Talk about daft comparison, cap transfer is more useful than tracking link, I mean the only reason to field a Scythe is to overcome another ships only weakness by increasing the crap range/tracking of there weapons . While a scythe still has 50 m/s more BASE speed, which is almost 30% more than an augoror has and also doesn't use the highslots for it's EW bonus, meaning you can still use tracking links for your fleet (hint: more tracking against nanos) and use all 5 highslots for anti-support. Yes, the HP bonus on the augoror is nice but it's still lacking in my opinion. And while its using its highs for anti-support it has all of THREE mid slots for tracking links, which is the whole point of the ship besides mining. Not to mention to 3 lows for tank/speed mods. Point is, Augorer is probably the best combat logistics ship, as it can actually survive a bit longer than the others. The Osprey is best known for its POS shield boosting abilities. They are all pretty bad but saying its the weakest/needs a boost without saying they all do isn't painting the full picture.
Xiarem Amarr The Ghost Works	Posted - 2007.12.26 17:41:00 - [1064] Quote: I mean, what is the point of training Amarr as it stands now? Sorry I'm a little drunk and wantet to answer this. Lasers are pretty! . "Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!"
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.12.26 18:07:00 - [1065] Originally by: Xiarem Quote: I mean, what is the point of training Amarr as it stands now? Sorry I'm a little drunk and wantet to answer this. Lasers are pretty! No, it gives you a license to whine 24/7 on the forums --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.26 21:23:00 - [1066] Edited by: The Djego on 26/12/2007 21:25:56 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: The Djego Paladin/Nightmare is out of the window and not on topic. The Idea was on the Table 1 Month ago by Gumindong with real point of changing Amarr Ships not youst they are better make amarr like them. What in the world does this say/mean? Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: The Djego Paladin/Nightmare is out of the window and not on topic. The Idea was on the Table 1 Month ago by Gumindong with real point of changing Amarr Ships not youst they are better make amarr like them. What in the world does this say/mean? Because Jojo simply hoped on this Idea when it first came up here. Telling that all Amarr Ships are crap is yust not right. I quoted you for bringing the Idee earlier in a diffrend Thread. Also it would fix the Cap/Fitting/Ak Option at the same time this would be good. On the other hand it gives the Ships cheaper Fittings and less Amno need. Also what happens to the Ships with 3,5 or 7 Turrets? Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: The Djego I pointed out the Punisher 1o1 because It was pure fun and a very awsome Amarr PVP experience The punisher is an awesome Amarr pvp experience? The punisher is terrible. Its only advantage is when it doesnt have a propulsion mod on... Think about that for a moment. It has a awsome Tank for a Frig. Shure it can¦t do big DPS Numbers but the Tank compared to a Rifter or a Incursus is preaty impressive from my point of view. It is not the I Win button but it has a advantage in Tank against other T1 Frigs without a doubt. Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: The Djego You put this on the table not me, I chat with a Mod of the Forum because we lived in the same area for some time and because of a war we chated mutch so we meet eatch other bevore he became a MOD. Send me a PM with a Killmail on the german Forums or STFU. If you are a Carcal alt don¦t mind you are pointless anyway The "German Forums" werent run by CCP, but by a fan site that was affiliated with an alliance. They indeed used IP logs to ferret out a spy in an alliance. You ought to be able to google that. To get a real picture of this I have to go a bit back in time. In 2003 some people started a EvE online Forum hosted by 4Players. The XT Member Cliz was the Admin from the start also some of his frinds helped him with the Project. Because of massive advertising the Site changed the host. This was the the same Server that contain the XT Forum because there was space left and no advertising. Before this the IP Log was used to identify a BOB Spy in XT a know Member of Bob that is on the german Forums obtaint information where XT was building a Supercap and posted it on the Bob Forum. With a Hack or a Spy this Information, Posted with the Main(Chrony) in the internal BOB Forums was released on the .de Forum. Ovaron asked a Member that had access to the Server details to get the IPs of the posting BoB Members and match the IPs with the XT Forum. By this they found a Alt of another BoB Member(Malkut Jena) in XT. The Admin and non of the Mods had any Idea of this and the Admin himself posted a excuse to the BoB Member and stated that something like this will never happen again. The .de Forum Admin started a post about this against the will of Overon and sayed what happend and that something like this will never happen again(the Forum changed it Server later). So it was not a Mod or Admin like Jojo claimed. And yes the germans Forums are 100% not official and fanmade. Also there is a diffrend kind of moderation like here. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.26 21:34:00 - [1067] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: The Djego 2. Gedon puts out more Damage on Paper, proved here with a comparebal fitting. Also it has a mutch bigger Range(Optimal) that is a huge advantage in a Gang. The Mega needs Cap for the MWD to get in Range and can start to fire later. In a 1o1 the Mega will beat the Gedon, in 2 Gedons vs 2 Megas it is the other Way around. Afterall you compare a Tier 1 BS with a Tier 2 BS. No, after all, you compare a gang battleship with a solo battleship[in essense]. Tier is a bad balancing mechanism. Well the Armaggedon is better in a Gang than the Mega. This don¦t mean it is only a gang Ship and the Mega is only a solo ship. Also Tier and the resulting Price are valid point when comparing 2 Ships. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:42:00 - [1068] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/12/2007 01:43:58 Originally by: The Djego Because Jojo simply hoped on this Idea when it first came up here. Telling that all Amarr Ships are crap is yust not right. I quoted you for bringing the Idee earlier in a diffrend Thread. Also it would fix the Cap/Fitting/Ak Option at the same time this would be good. On the other hand it gives the Ships cheaper Fittings and less Amno need. Also what happens to the Ships with 3,5 or 7 Turrets? You just varry the turrets and damage bonus to get the desired cap use and starting effective guns. An Omen for instance could be 3 guns, 5/3/5, 0 launchers, 75% dmg bonus special, dmg/some other bonus. 3x 1.75 = 5.25 effective guns = 4 turrets + Rof bonus[actually a little bit less], for both cap use and starting effective turrets. Its easier for the harb, since 4>7 perfectly at 75%. The fittings on the gank ships arent much cheaper, since t2 guns make everything quite cheap. The ammo use arguement is going to be non-existant on the tank ships[low effective turrets, high supplimentary dps] as they have the same effective weapons and so the same ammo use. And on the gank ships, it also isnt a huge deal since you almost never breaking crystals anyway. ed: The thread is still floating around ships and modules if you want to take a look or ask more questions as to how it would work. here Quote: It has a awsome Tank for a Frig. Shure it can¦t do big DPS Numbers but the Tank compared to a Rifter or a Incursus is preaty impressive from my point of view. It is not the I Win button but it has a advantage in Tank against other T1 Frigs without a doubt. The problem is that it cant use that tank without a propulsion mod, scrambler, and webifier. And that is 3 slots, which it does not have.
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.27 02:46:00 - [1069] Laser Cat Amarr Laser Cat
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.27 12:59:00 - [1070] Edited by: The Djego on 27/12/2007 13:00:13 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: The Djego Because Jojo simply hoped on this Idea when it first came up here. Telling that all Amarr Ships are crap is yust not right. I quoted you for bringing the Idee earlier in a diffrend Thread. Also it would fix the Cap/Fitting/Ak Option at the same time this would be good. On the other hand it gives the Ships cheaper Fittings and less Amno need. Also what happens to the Ships with 3,5 or 7 Turrets? You just varry the turrets and damage bonus to get the desired cap use and starting effective guns. An Omen for instance could be 3 guns, 5/3/5, 0 launchers, 75% dmg bonus special, dmg/some other bonus. 3x 1.75 = 5.25 effective guns = 4 turrets + Rof bonus[actually a little bit less], for both cap use and starting effective turrets. Its easier for the harb, since 4>7 perfectly at 75%. The fittings on the gank ships arent much cheaper, since t2 guns make everything quite cheap. The ammo use arguement is going to be non-existant on the tank ships[low effective turrets, high supplimentary dps] as they have the same effective weapons and so the same ammo use. And on the gank ships, it also isnt a huge deal since you almost never breaking crystals anyway. ed: The thread is still floating around ships and modules if you want to take a look or ask more questions as to how it would work. here Fitted at T1 Ships on a regular basis with T2 Weapons, saving 2-10 M per Ship Fitting(including Amno and Guns) is preaty mutch a advantage. On the Paladin or the Nightmare it is not by simply considering the base price of the ship and its insurance Payout. Also the extra Slots are a huge advantage(even without Overheating aspects) by fitting Remote Reps or Nos/Neuts even when offlined in a full gank Fitting. By a modified % rate of the Bonus on diffrent Ships you slove the 3,5,7 Guns aspect I can agree after rereading your post. I did like the work on the Omen and Maller and Prophecy but you did actualy add 2 or 3 Boni to the new Design(less cap use, more DPS, more Tank/more Cap) instead of yust one that is what looks overpowert to me. I posted on page 28 some smaller adjustments to the Omen, Maller and Profecy. They are smaller than yours and I don¦t know if it is balanced or a bit overpowert without the ability to test the new ships including a fitting in a real PVP Situation. Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: The Djego It has a awsome Tank for a Frig. Shure it can¦t do big DPS Numbers but the Tank compared to a Rifter or a Incursus is preaty impressive from my point of view. It is not the I Win button but it has a advantage in Tank against other T1 Frigs without a doubt. The problem is that it cant use that tank without a propulsion mod, scrambler, and webifier. And that is 3 slots, which it does not have. I also used a Rifter with a Cap Injector(without a Web) and a Incursus with only a Plate and MFS and they worked to. Not any Ship has to be the same to work in the same situation. It is all about tradeoffs and the Punisher got a advantage and a tradeoff to. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! [x)]

madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.12.27 15:30:00 - [1071] Originally by: Megadon Laser Cat Quote: Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal It got nerfed LOL _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.27 19:17:00 - [1072] Originally by: madaluap Originally by: Megadon Laser Cat Quote: Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal It got nerfed LOL I just knew they were gonna do another laser nerf! Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.27 22:49:00 - [1073] Originally by: The Djego I also used a Rifter with a Cap Injector(without a Web) and a Incursus with only a Plate and MFS and they worked to. Not any Ship has to be the same to work in the same situation. It is all about tradeoffs and the Punisher got a advantage and a tradeoff to. A rifter with a cap injector gets: mwd, scram, injector[to power the mwd and scram] od,od, nano A Punisher would get mwd, scram od, od, nano, nano And still be slower, easier to hit and less cap stable. A Rifter with a 400mm rt is actually faster than a punisher when both are using the same propulsion mods! The tank on a punisher is not beneficial unless you can hold people down to use it. I.E. prop mod, web, scram. Otherwise the difference between the ships is to minimal in every day activity. This is why the only real advantage the punisher has is when other frigates attack it[as it wont have a web or scram] Quote: Fitted at T1 Ships on a regular basis with T2 Weapons, saving 2-10 M per Ship Fitting(including Amno and Guns) is preaty mutch a advantage. On the Paladin or the Nightmare it is not by simply considering the base price of the ship and its insurance Payout. Also the extra Slots are a huge advantage(even without Overheating aspects) by fitting Remote Reps or Nos/Neuts even when offlined in a full gank Fitting. By a modified % rate of the Bonus on diffrent Ships you slove the 3,5,7 Guns aspect I can agree after rereading your post. I did like the work on the Omen and Maller and Prophecy but you did actualy add 2 or 3 Boni to the new Design(less cap use, more DPS, more Tank/more Cap) instead of yust one that is what looks overpowert to me. The cost of lasers and ammunitions makes the savings very very low compared to all the other costs. Its 10% at best. And Amarr already have the most expensive hulls resulting in a worse loss there to make up for some of it[not all of it though]. It looks like 2 bonuses, but its not. Unless you think that lasers are 25% better than all other weapons right now. This is of course, a position it is pretty much impossible to take. Because if lasers were 25% better then the ships with damage bonuses would be clearly overpowered E.G. If lasers = blasters or autocannons x 1.25 Then Lasers x 1.25 = Blasters or Autocannons x 1.25 x 1.25 Such, a harbinger with lasers x 1.25 would be equal to a 7 turret Hurricane. Or a brutix with the stats of 8/4/6, 7 guns, 2x damage bonuses. Since these are clearly false, and since the arguement is valid, the assumption must be false. Such lasers are not 25% better than blasters or autocannons. Now, if they are not 25% better than blasters or autocannons, then the cap use bonus is clearly something of a non-bonus. Like an optimal bonus on an autocannon ship.
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.27 23:57:00 - [1074] Edited by: The Djego on 28/12/2007 00:01:25 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: The Djego stuff A rifter with a cap injector gets: mwd, scram, injector[to power the mwd and scram] od,od, nano A Punisher would get mwd, scram od, od, nano, nano And still be slower, easier to hit and less cap stable. A Rifter with a 400mm rt is actually faster than a punisher when both are using the same propulsion mods! The tank on a punisher is not beneficial unless you can hold people down to use it. I.E. prop mod, web, scram. Otherwise the difference between the ships is to minimal in every day activity. This is why the only real advantage the punisher has is when other frigates attack it[as it wont have a web or scram] It was a permatanking Setup with AB and Scram, shure limited. I used a Cap Injector+Repper+EANM+200mm RT on the Rifter back in the days. Shure you can¦t handle a Nano Setup with it. In 0.0 where Nano is the normal standard I would not use it but in Low Sec it still works. Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: The Djego stuff The cost of lasers and ammunitions makes the savings very very low compared to all the other costs. Its 10% at best. And Amarr already have the most expensive hulls resulting in a worse loss there to make up for some of it[not all of it though]. It looks like 2 bonuses, but its not. Unless you think that lasers are 25% better than all other weapons right now. This is of course, a position it is pretty much impossible to take. Because if lasers were 25% better then the ships with damage bonuses would be clearly overpowered E.G. If lasers = blasters or autocannons x 1.25 Then Lasers x 1.25 = Blasters or Autocannons x 1.25 x 1.25 Such, a harbinger with lasers x 1.25 would be equal to a 7 turret Hurricane. Or a brutix with the stats of 8/4/6, 7 guns, 2x damage bonuses. Since these are clearly false, and since the arguement is valid, the assumption must be false. Such lasers are not 25% better than blasters or autocannons. Now, if they are not 25% better than blasters or autocannons, then the cap use bonus is clearly something of a non-bonus. Like an optimal bonus on an autocannon ship. First of the Fitting advantage. On a T1 Frig, a Omen/Maller or a Gedon it will be a lot more than 10%. Also you need at minimum 2 types of Amno(Scorch/AN MF for Puls as Example) since you have to buy a full crystall in the start this cost matters. For example Omen: - 25% less Cap Need for the guns -> ROF Bonus in the fixed Damage bonus inculded - 25% more Armor - Gun Damage: old 4x1.33(ROF Bonus) = 5.32, new 3x1.75 (role Bonus) = 5.25 + 25% Ship Bonus = 6.5 - 2 extra Highs(cause one is not any more a Misslehardpoint) = 4 new bonuses(Ok the Missle Slot is missing but that do not 23% more Damage) I agree the Omen needs a boost and a Change but I think this is a bit to mutch compared to the other Tier 2 Cruisers. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.12.28 04:14:00 - [1075] Omen is so ******* broken that its not even possible to overpower it with a juicy boost like that. You have no clue how worthless some of our ships are. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Skavenger	Posted - 2007.12.28 04:35:00 - [1076] This thread reminds me of a game i play: name one ship that amarr has in any class (frig, cruiser, etc) that is better than another races ship in that class i always lose, for pve and pvp. the sac is nice, but they had to turn it into caldari for it to be, otherwise the cap use is too much, harbi is nice, but the myrm is better(before bandwidth, now im not sure). abaddon is ok... i guess this game is never fun
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.28 05:26:00 - [1077] Edited by: shinsushi on 28/12/2007 05:36:30 Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 27/12/2007 01:43:58 Originally by: The Djego Because Jojo simply hoped on this Idea when it first came up here. Telling that all Amarr Ships are crap is yust not right. I quoted you for bringing the Idee earlier in a diffrend Thread. Also it would fix the Cap/Fitting/Ak Option at the same time this would be good. On the other hand it gives the Ships cheaper Fittings and less Amno need. Also what happens to the Ships with 3,5 or 7 Turrets? You just varry the turrets and damage bonus to get the desired cap use and starting effective guns. An Omen for instance could be 3 guns, 5/3/5, 0 launchers, 75% dmg bonus special, dmg/some other bonus. 3x 1.75 = 5.25 effective guns = 4 turrets + Rof bonus[actually a little bit less], for both cap use and starting effective turrets. Its easier for the harb, since 4>7 perfectly at 75%. The fittings on the gank ships arent much cheaper, since t2 guns make everything quite cheap. The ammo use arguement is going to be non-existant on the tank ships[low effective turrets, high supplimentary dps] as they have the same effective weapons and so the same ammo use. And on the gank ships, it also isnt a huge deal since you almost never breaking crystals anyway. ed: The thread is still floating around ships and modules if you want to take a look or ask more questions as to how it would work. here Quote: It has a awsome Tank for a Frig. Shure it can¦t do big DPS Numbers but the Tank compared to a Rifter or a Incursus is preaty impressive from my point of view. It is not the I Win button but it has a advantage in Tank against other T1 Frigs without a doubt. The problem is that it cant use that tank without a propulsion mod, scrambler, and webifier. And that is 3 slots, which it does not have. See Goumingdong, if you would had just proposed a 20% bonus per level instead of that built in 100% bonus, I think more people would have stood behind your Sansha idea. Its not an entirely outlandish bonus, and would ensure that amarrian ship would have fitted nothing but lasers (no more projectiles and other garbage.) Like the abaddon w/ 5 turrets, 0 launchers and 20% dmg per lvl, still a cap hog, but not as bad as now w/ the same dmg as now. Either way, you take the time to redo it, I'll take the time to ***** the thread for you. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.28 05:36:00 - [1078] Originally by: Skavenger This thread reminds me of a game i play: name one ship that amarr has in any class (frig, cruiser, etc) that is better than another races ship in that class i always lose, for pve and pvp. the sac is nice, but they had to turn it into caldari for it to be, otherwise the cap use is too much, harbi is nice, but the myrm is better(before bandwidth, now im not sure). abaddon is ok... i guess this game is never fun For NPCing versus Blood, sansha, drones and possibly mercs, very few ships can challenge the abaddon in rapage. For an anti-interceptor interceptor, I do not think I would rank many ships above the crusader. For mid-large scale gangs, I am not sure any BS will beat out the geddon once the omni-tank issue is fixed. For captitals, other than popping smaller ships, the amarrian ones are either near or at the top of the list. For logistics we have a great ship, best for armor/cap imo. and as for ships I cannot complain greatly about (minorly underpowered or balanced) I would put the absolution, harbinger, vengence, sacriledge, malediction, damnation, and the hound. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.28 06:40:00 - [1079] Originally by: shinsushi See Goumingdong, if you would had just proposed a 20% bonus per level instead of that built in 100% bonus, I think more people would have stood behind your Sansha idea. Its not an entirely outlandish bonus, and would ensure that amarrian ship would have fitted nothing but lasers (no more projectiles and other garbage.) Like the abaddon w/ 5 turrets, 0 launchers and 20% dmg per lvl, still a cap hog, but not as bad as now w/ the same dmg as now. Either way, you take the time to redo it, I'll take the time to ***** the thread for you. A huge variable bonus presents the same problem as the steady bonus except that with a huge bonus you are especially useless before you have ship skll 5.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.28 06:43:00 - [1080] Originally by: The Djego First of the Fitting advantage. On a T1 Frig, a Omen/Maller or a Gedon it will be a lot more than 10%. Also you need at minimum 2 types of Amno(Scorch/AN MF for Puls as Example) since you have to buy a full crystall in the start this cost matters. For example Omen: - 25% less Cap Need for the guns -> ROF Bonus in the fixed Damage bonus inculded - 25% more Armor - Gun Damage: old 4x1.33(ROF Bonus) = 5.32, new 3x1.75 (role Bonus) = 5.25 + 25% Ship Bonus = 6.5 - 2 extra Highs(cause one is not any more a Misslehardpoint) = 4 new bonuses(Ok the Missle Slot is missing but that do not 23% more Damage) I agree the Omen needs a boost and a Change but I think this is a bit to mutch compared to the other Tier 2 Cruisers. What fitting advantage? There is a slight cost advantage, but since you have so many other modules to put on ships it isnt a big deal. And 4 bonuses, how in the world could you possibly get 4 bonuses? I could imagine seeing 3 bonuses, but 4?

Trind2222 Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.12.28 10:59:00 - [1081] Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 28/12/2007 00:01:25 The cost of lasers and ammunitions makes the savings very very low compared to all the other costs. Its 10% at best. And Amarr already have the most expensive hulls resulting in a worse loss there to make up for some of it[not all of it though]. It looks like 2 bonuses, but its not. Unless you think that lasers are 25% better than all other weapons right now. This is of course, a position it is pretty much impossible to take. Because if lasers were 25% better then the ships with damage bonuses would be clearly overpowered E.G. If lasers = blasters or autocannons x 1.25 Then Lasers x 1.25 = Blasters or Autocannons x 1.25 x 1.25 Such, a harbinger with lasers x 1.25 would be equal to a 7 turret Hurricane. Or a brutix with the stats of 8/4/6, 7 guns, 2x damage bonuses. Since these are clearly false, and since the arguement is valid, the assumption must be false. Such lasers are not 25% better than blasters or autocannons. Now, if they are not 25% better than blasters or autocannons, then the cap use bonus is clearly something of a non-bonus. Like an optimal bonus on an autocannon ship. First of the Fitting advantage. On a T1 Frig, a Omen/Maller or a Gedon it will be a lot more than 10%. Also you need at minimum 2 types of Amno(Scorch/AN MF for Puls as Example) since you have to buy a full crystall in the start this cost matters. For example Omen: - 25% less Cap Need for the guns -> ROF Bonus in the fixed Damage bonus inculded - 25% more Armor - Gun Damage: old 4x1.33(ROF Bonus) = 5.32, new 3x1.75 (role Bonus) = 5.25 + 25% Ship Bonus = 6.5 - 2 extra Highs(cause one is not any more a Misslehardpoint) = 4 new bonuses(Ok the Missle Slot is missing but that do not 23% more Damage) I agree the Omen needs a boost and a Change but I think this is a bit to mutch compared to the other Tier 2 Cruisers. Omen is one of hardest cruisers to fit and the - 25% less Cap Need for the guns is on all amarr ships i don't you have flown a omen and the only uce full setup is for gang that is gank fit none will fit a tank setup on this ship because mostly it have fitting problems. Amarr is not only race whit rof bonus most minmatar ships have rof bonus and damage bonus. And use no cap. Your numbers is wrong i can say that at looking at them. Mostly i think you are trolling.
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.28 11:20:00 - [1082] Edited by: The Djego on 28/12/2007 11:24:42 Originally by: Trind2222 Originally by: The Djego stuff Omen is one of hardest cruisers to fit and the - 25% less Cap Need for the guns is on all amarr ships i don't you have flown a omen and the only uce full setup is for gang that is gank fit none will fit a tank setup on this ship because mostly it have fitting problems. Amarr is not only race whit rof bonus most minmatar ships have rof bonus and damage bonus. And use no cap. Your numbers is wrong i can say that at looking at them. Mostly i think you are trolling. This was on Gumindongs Thread, with his changed Bonis on the Omen, take a look bevor you yust say I¦m wrong. I have flown the Omen a lot. It is hard to fit and it is even harder to fit a Tank beside the Guns if you don¦t want to go down to Focused Puls Lasers or Quad Beams. Calling a ship worthless or point out it¦s drawbacks in his supposed role are 2 diffrent things. First one is easy, second one is quite hard and also includes hard argumentations and Im sad to say this, mutch of flame this days. If you are think Im trolling it is your opinion, fine. I post with my Main, flown Amarr ships and other races and readed most of the Amarr Threads here(this to, all the pages) and made a sugestion. There are many Posters like Jojo or Shinshin out there that don¦t try to compare and take a deeper look or comming up with opinions worth to discuss. I respect Gumindong for making all his affort but i dont 100% agree that is all. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.28 11:24:00 - [1083] Just to add that CCP changed Minmatar to have a role bonus of 100% cap reduction on Projectiles. Remember that Projectiles used to use cap in the past. So there is no reason why they cannot do something simaler to reduce cap on lasers. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.28 11:31:00 - [1084] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: The Djego First of the Fitting advantage. On a T1 Frig, a Omen/Maller or a Gedon it will be a lot more than 10%. Also you need at minimum 2 types of Amno(Scorch/AN MF for Puls as Example) since you have to buy a full crystall in the start this cost matters. For example Omen: - 25% less Cap Need for the guns -> ROF Bonus in the fixed Damage bonus inculded - 25% more Armor - Gun Damage: old 4x1.33(ROF Bonus) = 5.32, new 3x1.75 (role Bonus) = 5.25 + 25% Ship Bonus = 6.5 - 2 extra Highs(cause one is not any more a Misslehardpoint) = 4 new bonuses(Ok the Missle Slot is missing but that do not 23% more Damage) I agree the Omen needs a boost and a Change but I think this is a bit to mutch compared to the other Tier 2 Cruisers. What fitting advantage? There is a slight cost advantage, but since you have so many other modules to put on ships it isnt a big deal. And 4 bonuses, how in the world could you possibly get 4 bonuses? I could imagine seeing 3 bonuses, but 4? I take 2 two exta high Slots into account. Shure Small Nos/Neuts or offlined support Modules are not a big deal but still there and can be hany in some situations(vs a close Range Frig 2 Small Neuts can make a diffrence). Ok it is my point of view but extra slots(mayby not usefull in a Gank or Tank Fitting) are a bonus. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.28 11:50:00 - [1085] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Rigid Phallic The Abaddon class ship is a celestial tool of destruction. It is designed to enter combat from the outset, targeting enemies at range and firing salvo after salvo at them, and to remain intact on the battlefield until every heretic in sight has been torn to shreds. LIES.....the Abaddon runs out of cap, it cant sit at range that means BEAM sucking cap weapons, who writes this garbage, I posted a Cap Stable Beam Setup for the Abaddon 2 Pages ago. Also by the Ship Boni of the Abbadon it designed to tank and Gank with Puls. NOT FOR BEAM SNIPING. Abaddon is a good Ship. Use it in his role and it can Outperform most of the other Ships out there. If it's designed to be a pulse ship, why does it then have that extremely misleading describtion? It clearly states "at a distance" there... 50 km's is not "At a distance" imnsho. That's pretty much up close and personal and it'll take a so called blastertron about 10 seconds to get you in his optimal and wtfpwn you... That's 2.3 volleys for the Abaddon. Hurray :D I love Amarr ships, for their looks and what they do. But I've played this game long enough to realize that most Amarr ships have issues. I like the Geddon, but it needs speed to be viable in combat. Abaddon is also fine but it needs cap, Apoc is... where do I start?? Archon is awesome... Slow as hell and a little more agil than a Scorp . Never flown a Revelation... Zealot and HArbingers damageoutput is great... If you fancy flying paperships (I really love them ships though). Sac is great after the 'fix'. Made me have to do HAM 5 though... I played about in a Damnation yesterday, and it's capable of doing a mean tank with good resists... Damageoutput?? Meh... not worth talking about, but it's not meant to be a damagedealer anyhow. Curse and Pilgrim is fine. Used to be great though... Guardian is great too. As for the rest... I might have forgotten 1 or 2 ships that I like to fly, but the rest is pretty much rubbish... No wait.. The Exec is a great shuttle ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.28 13:04:00 - [1086] Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Rigid Phallic The Abaddon class ship is a celestial tool of destruction. It is designed to enter combat from the outset, targeting enemies at range and firing salvo after salvo at them, and to remain intact on the battlefield until every heretic in sight has been torn to shreds. LIES.....the Abaddon runs out of cap, it cant sit at range that means BEAM sucking cap weapons, who writes this garbage, I posted a Cap Stable Beam Setup for the Abaddon 2 Pages ago. Also by the Ship Boni of the Abbadon it designed to tank and Gank with Puls. NOT FOR BEAM SNIPING. Abaddon is a good Ship. Use it in his role and it can Outperform most of the other Ships out there. If it's designed to be a pulse ship, why does it then have that extremely misleading describtion? It clearly states "at a distance" there... 50 km's is not "At a distance" imnsho. That's pretty much up close and personal and it'll take a so called blastertron about 10 seconds to get you in his optimal and wtfpwn you... That's 2.3 volleys for the Abaddon. Hurray :D 50km is preaty good short range(considering the huge Optimal). Ok ship discriptions are not correct when compared the Ship to it ingame(Zealot for example). I have no Idea why every one allways complain about the Blasterthron. As somebody that fly one I would not engage a Abaddon because it will simply will outank you. Gankthrons have weak Tanks. A tanked Blasterthron has not this kind of extme damage. Abbadon can Tank and Gank at the same time, shure the timeframe is limited, but a Blasterthron will loose this battle the one or the other way because it is also Cap Limited and optimized for a short timeframe. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Chronos VIII Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.12.28 13:52:00 - [1087] Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 28/12/2007 13:14:21 Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Rigid Phallic The Abaddon class ship is a celestial tool of destruction. It is designed to enter combat from the outset, targeting enemies at range and firing salvo after salvo at them, and to remain intact on the battlefield until every heretic in sight has been torn to shreds. LIES.....the Abaddon runs out of cap, it cant sit at range that means BEAM sucking cap weapons, who writes this garbage, I posted a Cap Stable Beam Setup for the Abaddon 2 Pages ago. Also by the Ship Boni of the Abbadon it designed to tank and Gank with Puls. NOT FOR BEAM SNIPING. Abaddon is a good Ship. Use it in his role and it can Outperform most of the other Ships out there. If it's designed to be a pulse ship, why does it then have that extremely misleading describtion? It clearly states "at a distance" there... 50 km's is not "At a distance" imnsho. That's pretty much up close and personal and it'll take a so called blastertron about 10 seconds to get you in his optimal and wtfpwn you... That's 2.3 volleys for the Abaddon. Hurray :D 50km is preaty good short range(considering the huge Optimal). Ok ship discriptions are not correct when compared the Ship to it ingame(Zealot for example). I have no Idea why every one allways complain about the Blasterthron. As somebody that fly one I would not engage a Abaddon because it will simply will outank you. Gankthrons have weak Tanks. A tanked Blasterthron has not this kind of extme damage. Abbadon can Tank and Gank at the same time, shure the timeframe is limited, but a Blasterthron will loose this battle the one or the other way because it is also Cap Limited and optimized for a short timeframe also. Yea right, Abaddon can tank and gank
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.28 14:07:00 - [1088] Edited by: SkyCrane on 28/12/2007 14:15:24 Originally by: The Djego 50km is preaty good short range(considering the huge Optimal). Ok ship discriptions are not correct when compared the Ship to it ingame(Zealot for example). I have no Idea why every one allways complain about the Blasterthron. As somebody that fly one I would not engage a Abaddon because it will simply will outank you. Gankthrons have weak Tanks. A tanked Blasterthron has not this kind of extme damage. Abbadon can Tank and Gank at the same time, shure the timeframe is limited, but a Blasterthron will loose this battle the one or the other way because it is also Cap Limited and optimized for a short timeframe also. 50 km's is not "at a range" imo.. That's close combat. I wonder how you plan do do this, but I'm all ears. Give me an Abaddon setup which is able to bag a Blastertron, please. Prove it please... Consider this a challenge. And why do you bring up the Zealot everytime when we mention the ship describtions to be wrong? I woulodn't exactly call the Zealots describtion to be correct.. "Thick armor"? Compare the Zealots describtion with the Ishtar and everyone should see how wrong it is.. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.28 14:24:00 - [1089] Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs Remember when Minmaer weapons were the WORST? CCP fixed those and also gave ALL minmatar a role boost - A 100% Cap reduction in projectils. They sould do something simaler with lasers. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.12.28 14:33:00 - [1090] The issue i personally see is that base damage on lasers is low considering the omni tank issue. All amarrian ships without a damage bonus are considered bad. The geddon and other ships with a ROF bonus would probably end up doing too much damage if base damage of lasers would be raised, but the ROF bonus could be changed into a 5% damage per level instead. As for the omni-tank problem, there could be two simple solutions: 1. Solution: introducing a second line of crystals that deal some explosive damage. Mimmatar were given emp ammo to help against shield tanks so it's not unreasonable to give Amarr some explosive crystals to help them with armor tanks. 2. Solution : changing the base resistances of ships to something less extreme. ie. Shield: 10% EM Armor: 50% EM This alone works out to a 14.5% dps increase against armor when using Multifrequency, and a 11% dps loss against shields.

The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.28 14:40:00 - [1091] Originally by: SkyCrane Edited by: SkyCrane on 28/12/2007 14:15:24 Originally by: The Djego 50km is preaty good short range(considering the huge Optimal). Ok ship discriptions are not correct when compared the Ship to it ingame(Zealot for example). I have no Idea why every one allways complain about the Blasterthron. As somebody that fly one I would not engage a Abaddon because it will simply will outank you. Gankthrons have weak Tanks. A tanked Blasterthron has not this kind of extme damage. Abbadon can Tank and Gank at the same time, shure the timeframe is limited, but a Blasterthron will loose this battle the one or the other way because it is also Cap Limited and optimized for a short timeframe also. 50 km's is not "at a range" imo.. That's close combat. I wonder how you plan do do this, but I'm all ears. Give me an Abaddon setup which is able to bag a Blastertron, please. Prove it please... Consider this a challenge. And why do you bring up the Zealot everytime when we mention the ship describtions to be wrong? I woulodn't exactly call the Zealots describtion to be correct.. "Thick armor"? Compare the Zealots describtion with the Ishtar and everyone should see how wrong it is.. 7 MPL II Web, Scram, 2 Heavy Cap Boosters II 2 LAR II, Expl Hardner II, Kin Hardner II, Termic Hadner II, Damage Controll II, Heat Sink II 2x Nano Pump 1x Semiconductor Memory Cell 5x Hammerhead II Beats a Blastertron in real World PVP any time. Can run 3 Minutes at it worst when you need both Reppers. More like 4-6 Minutes in a standard Situation with the buffer of the Semiconductor Cell. Show me the real world Blasterthron setup that can take on a Abbadon at a equal Skillevel, consinder that as a challange. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.28 16:07:00 - [1092] Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 28/12/2007 15:13:22 7 MPL IIWeb, Scram, 2 Heavy Cap Boosters II2 LAR II, Expl Hardner II, Kin Hardner II, Termic Hadner II,Damage Controll II, Heat Sink II 2x Nano Pump1x Semiconductor Memory Cell 5x Hammerhead II Beats a Blastertron in real World PVP any time. abaddon 170kk + t2 fit - 40-55kk + riggs 80-100kk = 300-355kk. Is it "real world pvp"?
Savlin Gallente principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.28 16:10:00 - [1093] Bump give us at least some crystals that do other dmg or swap Therm/em
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.28 16:43:00 - [1094] Originally by: The Djego I take 2 two exta high Slots into account. Shure Small Nos/Neuts or offlined support Modules are not a big deal but still there and can be handy in some situations(vs a close Range Frig 2 Small Neuts can make a diffrence). Ok it is my point of view but extra slots(mayby not usefull in a Gank or Tank Fitting) are a bonus. The idea is that they not be allocated fitting space for those slots
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.28 16:55:00 - [1095] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 28/12/2007 15:13:22 7 MPL IIWeb, Scram, 2 Heavy Cap Boosters II2 LAR II, Expl Hardner II, Kin Hardner II, Termic Hadner II,Damage Controll II, Heat Sink II 2x Nano Pump1x Semiconductor Memory Cell 5x Hammerhead II Beats a Blastertron in real World PVP any time. abaddon 170kk + t2 fit - 40-55kk + riggs 80-100kk = 300-355kk. Is it "real world pvp"? Its more like 150kk + 60 M Fitting + 70 M Rigs = 280 M. My aktive tanked Mega has a Powergrid Rig, Nano Pump, Semiconductor Cell on aswell and some cheaper Faction Items. How do you think the people in all the nice PVP Vids take on 2-3 other Ships the same time? Expensive Fittings are real world PVP today if you not using a bigger blob all the time. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.12.28 17:14:00 - [1096] Originally by: Traeon Edited by: Traeon on 28/12/2007 14:38:23 The issue i personally see is that base damage on lasers is low considering the omni tank issue. All amarrian ships without a damage bonus are considered weak. But dont you see that this is exactly the problem? Lasers are supposed to have built in damage because amarr bonus is not a damage bonus but a cap use bonus. The whole laser using ships are broken. They need to rebalance and redo every turret ship in amarr fleet. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.28 19:03:00 - [1097] Originally by: The Djego 7 MPL II Web, Scram, 2 Heavy Cap Boosters II 2 LAR II, Expl Hardner II, Kin Hardner II, Termic Hadner II, Damage Controll II, Heat Sink II 2x Nano Pump 1x Semiconductor Memory Cell 5x Hammerhead II Beats a Blastertron in real World PVP any time. Can run 3 Minutes at it worst when you need both Reppers. More like 4-6 Minutes in a standard Situation with the buffer of the Semiconductor Cell. Show me the real world Blasterthron setup that can take on a Abbadon at a equal Skillevel, consinder that as a challange. Compared to Blaster Setup(25km with Neutrons and Null) 50km are high, even compared to Aks because you don¦t suffer from Falloff till 40km... This setup isn't viable in the long run... Next.. No, I can't give you a working Mega-setup because I haven't crosstrained.... ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.12.28 19:18:00 - [1098] Edited by: Traeon on 28/12/2007 19:20:35 Quote: But dont you see that this is exactly the problem? Lasers are supposed to have built in damage because amarr bonus is not a damage bonus but a cap use bonus. The whole laser using ships are broken. They need to rebalance and redo every turret ship in amarr fleet . I see the issue. DPS without some sort of damage bonus is pretty bad and the disadvantages don't seem to be justified on those ships. I'm talking about real dps numbers in pvp, not raw dps numbers from EFT. These are different because: 1. Most ships armor tank, and EANM's are simply the overall best choice for increasing armor resistances. 2. The minmatar shield tankers, if T2, have pretty high EM res on their shields. That leaves the cyclone and maelstrom that have relatively low EM resistance. 3. Shield tanking ships (Caldari in particular) tend to fit a full tank, unlike armor tanking ships which have some low slots for damage mods. Caldari ships tend to have pretty good EM res. 4. Minmatar ships get 70% EM res on armor which is a 25% decrease in EM damage compared to 60%. Gallente gets 35% KIN which is a 14% decrease compared to the base 25%. Caldari gets 45% THERM on armor (). Amarr gets 20% EXP resistance which is 11% reduction in damage compared to the base 10%. I understand that long time ago lasers were uber and needed numerous disadvantages (cap usage, fitting, em/therm damage only, predictability) to keep them balanced, as well as hard counters (tracking disruptors, minmatar armor tankers), but things have changed. A laser ship without a damage bonus is a gimp.
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.29 01:11:00 - [1099] Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: The Djego 7 MPL II Web, Scram, 2 Heavy Cap Boosters II 2 LAR II, Expl Hardner II, Kin Hardner II, Termic Hadner II, Damage Controll II, Heat Sink II 2x Nano Pump 1x Semiconductor Memory Cell 5x Hammerhead II Beats a Blastertron in real World PVP any time. Can run 3 Minutes at it worst when you need both Reppers. More like 4-6 Minutes in a standard Situation with the buffer of the Semiconductor Cell. Show me the real world Blasterthron setup that can take on a Abbadon at a equal Skillevel, consinder that as a challange. Compared to Blaster Setup(25km with Neutrons and Null) 50km are high, even compared to Aks because you don¦t suffer from Falloff till 40km... This setup isn't viable in the long run... Next.. No, I can't give you a working Mega-setup because I haven't crosstrained.... This is not PVE. It has a short duration before it burns out but it can tank a high amount of DPS in this Time. This is diffrent to the Megathron. Also the Mega have to burn Cap to get in Range. Take this Setup and and test it ingame or go on the Test server If you have a doubt. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.29 01:46:00 - [1100] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: The Djego 7 MPL II Web, Scram, 2 Heavy Cap Boosters II 2 LAR II, Expl Hardner II, Kin Hardner II, Termic Hadner II, Damage Controll II, Heat Sink II 2x Nano Pump 1x Semiconductor Memory Cell 5x Hammerhead II Beats a Blastertron in real World PVP any time. Can run 3 Minutes at it worst when you need both Reppers. More like 4-6 Minutes in a standard Situation with the buffer of the Semiconductor Cell. Show me the real world Blasterthron setup that can take on a Abbadon at a equal Skillevel, consinder that as a challange. Compared to Blaster Setup(25km with Neutrons and Null) 50km are high, even compared to Aks because you don¦t suffer from Falloff till 40km... This setup isn't viable in the long run... Next.. No, I can't give you a working Mega-setup because I haven't crosstrained.... This is not PVE. It has a short duration before it burns out but it can tank a high amount of DPS in this Time. This is diffrent to the Megathron. Also the Mega have to burn Cap to get in Range. Take this Setup and and test it ingame or go on the Test server If you have a doubt. Dual Cap boosters. No MWD. No way to dictate range. Mega will usualy start off around 15km away to beguin with (i.e perhaps mega sitting on gate when your setup jumps in) and will be in optimal by the timy you both lock each other. Your abaddon will be toast. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)

The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.29 09:04:00 - [1101] Edited by: The Djego on 29/12/2007 09:15:45 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: The Djego 7 MPL II Web, Scram, 2 Heavy Cap Boosters II 2 LAR II, Expl Hardner II, Kin Hardner II, Termic Hadner II, Damage Controll II, Heat Sink II 2x Nano Pump 1x Semiconductor Memory Cell 5x Hammerhead II Beats a Blastertron in real World PVP any time. Can run 3 Minutes at it worst when you need both Reppers. More like 4-6 Minutes in a standard Situation with the buffer of the Semiconductor Cell. Show me the real world Blasterthron setup that can take on a Abbadon at a equal Skillevel, consinder that as a challange. Compared to Blaster Setup(25km with Neutrons and Null) 50km are high, even compared to Aks because you don¦t suffer from Falloff till 40km... This setup isn't viable in the long run... Next.. No, I can't give you a working Mega-setup because I haven't crosstrained.... This is not PVE. It has a short duration before it burns out but it can tank a high amount of DPS in this Time. This is diffrent to the Megathron. Also the Mega have to burn Cap to get in Range. Take this Setup and and test it ingame or go on the Test server If you have a doubt. Dual Cap boosters. No MWD. No way to dictate range. Mega will usualy start off around 15km away to beguin with (i.e perhaps mega sitting on gate when your setup jumps in) and will be in optimal by the timy you both lock each other. Your abaddon will be toast. Don¦t make yourself look stupid by telling me what a Blasterthron can do. Have you ever flown a Megathron in PVP? If you can¦t break a Tank with the Mega fast you are prety mutch screwt. Simply because of the Megathron will cap out while permarepping to and has a weak tank compared to the Abbadon. I even tryed multiply times to beat a frind of mine in his Abaddon with my Mega. If you try Gank you won¦t kill the Armor of the Abbadon before your own Armor is gone. If you try Tank you won¦t even start to beat the Reppers of the Abbadon while loosing your Armor in about 2-3 Minutes. The only thing you proven with your statment is that you never was with a Abaddon in this PVP situation. This is a little example what happens to a Megathron when you run into a heavy Tank. Right thats me loosing a Mega. Project Mayhem 2 thx to Lofty29 for this awsome 1o1 This was a 105k Efective HP Setup with about 1100 DPS back then based on my level of Skills and the fitting. Some people still try things out ingame before battle it out on a EFT Level and claim they are right... ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2007.12.29 11:19:00 - [1102] Edited by: Riaz Qaadir on 29/12/2007 11:19:47 Originally by: SkyCrane I wonder how you plan do do this, but I'm all ears. Give me an Abaddon setup which is able to bag a Blastertron, please. Prove it please... Consider this a challenge. Why should a Abaddon be able to bag a Megathron 1v1? As it is the setup Goum posted (with either 2 HS or 3 HS) will run a Mega very close. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Traeon Edited by: Traeon on 28/12/2007 14:38:23 The issue i personally see is that base damage on lasers is low considering the omni tank issue. All amarrian ships without a damage bonus are considered weak. But dont you see that this is exactly the problem? Lasers are supposed to have built in damage because amarr bonus is not a damage bonus but a cap use bonus. The whole laser using ships are broken. They need to rebalance and redo every turret ship in amarr fleet. So pulse lasers with MF ammo having an optimal that a neutron blaster needs to use null with isn't a damage advantage? Do you want same as blaster damage at that range with same cap use? What is an acceptable range, dps and cap balance? Because all that matters is peak damage I guess. No way you need to redo every laser ship, or you'll ruin two of the best amarr ships doing so. Originally by: Traeon Edited by: Traeon on 28/12/2007 19:20:35 Quote: But dont you see that this is exactly the problem? Lasers are supposed to have built in damage because amarr bonus is not a damage bonus but a cap use bonus. The whole laser using ships are broken. They need to rebalance and redo every turret ship in amarr fleet . I see the issue. DPS without some sort of damage bonus is pretty bad and the disadvantages don't seem to be justified on those ships. I'm talking about real dps numbers in pvp, not raw dps numbers from EFT. These are different because: 1. Most ships armor tank, and EANM's are simply the overall best choice for increasing armor resistances. 2. The minmatar shield tankers, if T2, have pretty high EM res on their shields. That leaves the cyclone and maelstrom that have relatively low EM resistance. 3. Shield tanking ships (Caldari in particular) tend to fit a full tank, unlike armor tanking ships which have some low slots for damage mods. Caldari ships tend to have pretty good EM res. 4. Minmatar ships get 70% EM res on armor which is a 25% decrease in EM damage compared to 60%. Gallente gets 35% KIN which is a 14% decrease compared to the base 25%. Caldari gets 45% THERM on armor (). Amarr gets 20% EXP resistance which is 11% reduction in damage compared to the base 10%. I understand that long time ago lasers were uber and needed numerous disadvantages (cap usage, fitting, em/therm damage only, predictability) to keep them balanced, as well as hard counters (tracking disruptors, minmatar armor tankers), but things have changed. A laser ship without a damage bonus is a gimp. 1. Not quite. EANM AND DC are best for HP tanking, after 2 EANM and DC active hardeners are better. For max repair tanking active hardeners are more common, and EM is usually lowest on those tanks. 2. More minny t2 shield tankers are better than more minny t2 armour tankers. And all the other races have huge EM hole to fill on t2 shield tanks, often needing active t2 EM hard and em rig to not be lowest. 3. Because lasers hurt without good resistances, if they didn't hurt like everyone tries to say then t1 shield tanking ships wouldn't use an EM instead of a 3rd invuln. 4. Yeah, it is a bit strange, but compared to EANM and DC's not the major issue.
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.29 11:21:00 - [1103] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: The Djego 7 MPL II Web, Scram, 2 Heavy Cap Boosters II 2 LAR II, Expl Hardner II, Kin Hardner II, Termic Hadner II, Damage Controll II, Heat Sink II 2x Nano Pump 1x Semiconductor Memory Cell 5x Hammerhead II Beats a Blastertron in real World PVP any time. Can run 3 Minutes at it worst when you need both Reppers. More like 4-6 Minutes in a standard Situation with the buffer of the Semiconductor Cell. Show me the real world Blasterthron setup that can take on a Abbadon at a equal Skillevel, consinder that as a challange. Compared to Blaster Setup(25km with Neutrons and Null) 50km are high, even compared to Aks because you don¦t suffer from Falloff till 40km... This setup isn't viable in the long run... Next.. No, I can't give you a working Mega-setup because I haven't crosstrained.... This is not PVE. It has a short duration before it burns out but it can tank a high amount of DPS in this Time. This is diffrent to the Megathron. Also the Mega have to burn Cap to get in Range. Take this Setup and and test it ingame or go on the Test server If you have a doubt. So with 800 injectors you have room for 16 injectors in an Abaddon. And you're depending on two every time you shoot more than... 1 minute or sommat? Do you have an amunition assembly array with you when you go out PvPing in another region? Yes, I am a PvP newbie, and I gledly admit that I suck at it, therefore I normally talk from PVE point of view, and use of injectors there simply desn't work.. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.29 11:55:00 - [1104] Edited by: The Djego on 29/12/2007 11:57:37 Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: The Djego Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: The Djego 7 MPL II Web, Scram, 2 Heavy Cap Boosters II 2 LAR II, Expl Hardner II, Kin Hardner II, Termic Hadner II, Damage Controll II, Heat Sink II 2x Nano Pump 1x Semiconductor Memory Cell 5x Hammerhead II Beats a Blastertron in real World PVP any time. Can run 3 Minutes at it worst when you need both Reppers. More like 4-6 Minutes in a standard Situation with the buffer of the Semiconductor Cell. Show me the real world Blasterthron setup that can take on a Abbadon at a equal Skillevel, consinder that as a challange. Compared to Blaster Setup(25km with Neutrons and Null) 50km are high, even compared to Aks because you don¦t suffer from Falloff till 40km... This setup isn't viable in the long run... Next.. No, I can't give you a working Mega-setup because I haven't crosstrained.... This is not PVE. It has a short duration before it burns out but it can tank a high amount of DPS in this Time. This is diffrent to the Megathron. Also the Mega have to burn Cap to get in Range. Take this Setup and and test it ingame or go on the Test server If you have a doubt. So with 800 injectors you have room for 16 injectors in an Abaddon. And you're depending on two every time you shoot more than... 1 minute or sommat? Do you have an amunition assembly array with you when you go out PvPing in another region? Yes, I am a PvP newbie, and I gledly admit that I suck at it, therefore I normally talk from PVE point of view, and use of injectors there simply desn't work.. A Heavy T2 Cap Booster got 5 Charges eatch -> this makes 26 Charges in total. It takes 60 Seconds till you burn this 5 Charges. Since you don¦t fire up all your Guns and Reppers from the Start and got a Buffer in the Capacitor you have to reload the first time in about 2-2.5 Minutes. This leads to a common timeframe of 5-6 Minutes if you need both Reppers(counting Resistance in his is serios Damage that will only be provided by a Gank CS/BS setup or multiply Targets). If you fitt 1 Booster and Cap Mods you will end up with less tank or Gank or without tackling ability. You will run out of Cap mostly before you can burn all your charges and get killed because you have no Cap to fire up this Reppers/Lasers. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.29 11:55:00 - [1105] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Why should a Abaddon be able to bag a Megathron 1v1? As it is the setup Goum posted (with either 2 HS or 3 HS) will run a Mega very close. To answer you with a question: Why shouldn't it? Seriously though, I only used it as an example as people seem to think that 50 km's is an ok range for close combat... (Again)I need to point out the fact that I'm ****e at PvP and know next to nothing about it, but Amarr ships are quite useless in PVE too, with their extremely limited damageoutput, and their very gimped tank. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.29 12:36:00 - [1106] Edited by: The Djego on 29/12/2007 12:40:56 Edited by: The Djego on 29/12/2007 12:37:24 Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Why should a Abaddon be able to bag a Megathron 1v1? As it is the setup Goum posted (with either 2 HS or 3 HS) will run a Mega very close. To answer you with a question: Why shouldn't it? Seriously though, I only used it as an example as people seem to think that 50 km's is an ok range for close combat... (Again)I need to point out the fact that I'm ****e at PvP and know next to nothing about it, but Amarr ships are quite useless in PVE too, with their extremely limited damageoutput, and their very gimped tank. 1. I would not bet my Money on the Mega even Plated vs the Abbadon. The resistance Bonus, more Armor HP and the Range Bonus favour the Abaddon. The DPS advantage of the Mega is not that big that it w=uld come up at top. 2. Normal Combat Range is 3-25km Close Range. Because it is scrambling Range and allmost all Blasters and AKs are only effective at this Range(Large Aks can fire up to about 35km effective but will do poor Damage at this Range). 3. I only had issues with Guristas because of the high Orbits of some BS. Angels take some time to but not that extrem because of her closer Orbits you can use Crystalls with more Termal Damage. With AN MF you not even mention higher Resistances(2 Heat Sinks minimum). Other Npcs are not a big deal, counting in the good tracking ability of Puls i have to say that i prefere them over Rails or Artillary because of the universal use that is not so mutch limited by Target speed and distance(Trackingcomputer ftw). Lasers are not that bad because of her good hitting ability in Mid Range for PVE. Compared to Rails or Artillary you will hit a lot more often at a closer Range and a orbitting Target. Also I use a Apoc for PVE, so cap is no Problem at all, shure it has less Damage but i like to be able to get myself a new beer during the Mission without to worry about my Ship. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.29 12:44:00 - [1107] Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 29/12/2007 12:37:24 Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Why should a Abaddon be able to bag a Megathron 1v1? As it is the setup Goum posted (with either 2 HS or 3 HS) will run a Mega very close. To answer you with a question: Why shouldn't it? Seriously though, I only used it as an example as people seem to think that 50 km's is an ok range for close combat... (Again)I need to point out the fact that I'm ****e at PvP and know next to nothing about it, but Amarr ships are quite useless in PVE too, with their extremely limited damageoutput, and their very gimped tank. 1. I would not bet my Money on the Mega even Plated vs the Abbadon. The resistance Bonus, more Armor HP and the Range Bonus favour the Abaddon. The DPS advantage of the Mega is not that big that it w=uld come up at top. 2. Normal Combat Range is 3-25km Close Range. Because it is scrambling Range and allmost all Blasters and AKs are only effective at this Range(Large Aks can fire up to about 35km effective but will do poor Damage at this Range). 3. I only had issues with Guristas because of the high Orbits of some BS. Angels take some time to but not that extrem because of her closer Orbits you can use Crystalls with more Termal Damage. With AN MF you not even mention higher Resistances. Other Npcs are not a big deal, counting in the good tracking ability of Puls i have to say that i prefere them over Rails or Artillary because of the universal use that is not so mutch limited by Target speed and distance(Trackingcomputer ftw). Lasers are not that bad because of her good hitting ability in Mid Range for PVE. Compared to Rails or Artillary you will hit a lot more often at a closer Range and a orbitting Target. Also I use a Apoc for PVE, so cap is no Problem at all, shure it has less Damage but i like to be able to get myself a new beer during the Mission without to worry about my Ship. For the love of god, your theoretical setup would be dead after the first jump it makes. How long is it going to take your ship to crawl to gate or dictate range with no propulsion mods? Dual cap boosters mean nothing - you need a mwd. Look up every top pvper on killboards - every one has MWD as it allows them to dictate range. Just because dual cap booster Abaddon is almost as good as raven for PvE does not mean that it is good for PvP. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.29 13:19:00 - [1108] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 29/12/2007 12:47:15 Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 29/12/2007 12:45:58 Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 29/12/2007 12:37:24 Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Why should a Abaddon be able to bag a Megathron 1v1? As it is the setup Goum posted (with either 2 HS or 3 HS) will run a Mega very close. To answer you with a question: Why shouldn't it? Seriously though, I only used it as an example as people seem to think that 50 km's is an ok range for close combat... (Again)I need to point out the fact that I'm ****e at PvP and know next to nothing about it, but Amarr ships are quite useless in PVE too, with their extremely limited damageoutput, and their very gimped tank. 1. I would not bet my Money on the Mega even Plated vs the Abbadon. The resistance Bonus, more Armor HP and the Range Bonus favour the Abaddon. The DPS advantage of the Mega is not that big that it w=uld come up at top. 2. Normal Combat Range is 3-25km Close Range. Because it is scrambling Range and allmost all Blasters and AKs are only effective at this Range(Large Aks can fire up to about 35km effective but will do poor Damage at this Range). 3. I only had issues with Guristas because of the high Orbits of some BS. Angels take some time to but not that extrem because of her closer Orbits you can use Crystalls with more Termal Damage. With AN MF you not even mention higher Resistances. Other Npcs are not a big deal, counting in the good tracking ability of Puls i have to say that i prefere them over Rails or Artillary because of the universal use that is not so mutch limited by Target speed and distance(Trackingcomputer ftw). Lasers are not that bad because of her good hitting ability in Mid Range for PVE. Compared to Rails or Artillary you will hit a lot more often at a closer Range and a orbitting Target. Also I use a Apoc for PVE, so cap is no Problem at all, shure it has less Damage but i like to be able to get myself a new beer during the Mission without to worry about my Ship. Some strange comment. 1. So your PVP Experience is what is on the Killbords? Wow, awsome! Repeat after me, "I fly a ship with extreme Cap use, a MWD will kill my Cap before a Target can kill me." Btw this Setup is not theoretical, it works. Sorry to say that but if you fly without a Scout solo in a BS no MWD will save you when you run into a propper Gate Camp when you can¦t tank. Go on fit your MWD, because everyone fit¦s a MWD and complain about that the Abaddon is a bad Ship. 2. Have you even read my post? This fitting is for PVP, i use a Apoc for PVE. Why for gods sake should the Abaddon dedicate Range? Do you need a MWD to get in Optimal Range(please don¦t say yes)? A Blaster Ship needs a MWD to get into Optimal Range this is why a Blastership fits a MWD. The only situation where a AB on the Mega is fine is in a Neutron II Gang Setup if you use Null(about 26km) all the Time. Even than you loose a lot of Damage because of Falloff and less Base Damage with Null. Use Long Range? Please don¦t tell me that you don¦t know that even in PVP when not scrambelt, klicking warp to gets you out of battle in no time. This only proves that you have no Idee how "real(virtual) live" PVP works today. Please try to fly the ships in PVP before you complain they don¦t work. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.29 13:57:00 - [1109] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 29/12/2007 13:58:42 Originally by: The Djego 1. So your PVP Experience is what is on the Killbords? Wow, awsome! Repeat after me, "I fly a ship with extreme Cap use, a MWD will kill my Cap before a Target can kill me." Btw this Setup is not theoretical, it works. Sorry to say that but if you fly without a Scout solo in a BS no MWD will save you when you run into a propper Gate Camp when you can¦t tank. Go on fit your MWD, because everyone fit¦s a MWD and complain about that the Abaddon is a bad Ship. 2. Have you even read my post? This fitting is for PVP, i use a Apoc for PVE. Why for gods sake should the Abaddon dedicate Range? Do you need a MWD to get in Optimal Range(please don¦t say yes)? A Blaster Ship needs a MWD to get into Optimal Range this is why a Blastership fits a MWD. The only situation where a AB on the Mega is fine is in a Neutron II Gang Setup if you use Null(about 26km) all the Time. Even than you loose a lot of Damage because of Falloff and less Base Damage with Null. Use Long Range? Please don¦t tell me that you don¦t know that even in PVP when not scrambelt, klicking warp to gets you out of battle in no time. This only proves that you have no Idee how "real(virtual) live" PVP works today. Please try to fly the ships in PVP before you complain they don¦t work. The Djego - I cannot stop laughing at your "Theoretical" setup for a dual cap boosted abadoon that you Think works in real world pvp. Its almost as bad the the quad cap booster quad rep medium gun abaddon setup I saw a while back! Here let me repeat for you Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs Please take that abaddon setup - and go and pvp in it for 1 day against pvp mega pilots and point me to where you actually win a battle. Honestly, I havent laughed so much since I read the post from the guy who thinks retributions (a ship with 1 midslot) can take on nano ships! Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.29 14:26:00 - [1110] Edited by: The Djego on 29/12/2007 14:31:50 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 29/12/2007 13:58:42 Originally by: The Djego 1. So your PVP Experience is what is on the Killbords? Wow, awsome! Repeat after me, "I fly a ship with extreme Cap use, a MWD will kill my Cap before a Target can kill me." Btw this Setup is not theoretical, it works. Sorry to say that but if you fly without a Scout solo in a BS no MWD will save you when you run into a propper Gate Camp when you can¦t tank. Go on fit your MWD, because everyone fit¦s a MWD and complain about that the Abaddon is a bad Ship. 2. Have you even read my post? This fitting is for PVP, i use a Apoc for PVE. Why for gods sake should the Abaddon dedicate Range? Do you need a MWD to get in Optimal Range(please don¦t say yes)? A Blaster Ship needs a MWD to get into Optimal Range this is why a Blastership fits a MWD. The only situation where a AB on the Mega is fine is in a Neutron II Gang Setup if you use Null(about 26km) all the Time. Even than you loose a lot of Damage because of Falloff and less Base Damage with Null. Use Long Range? Please don¦t tell me that you don¦t know that even in PVP when not scrambelt, klicking warp to gets you out of battle in no time. This only proves that you have no Idee how "real(virtual) live" PVP works today. Please try to fly the ships in PVP before you complain they don¦t work. The Djego - I cannot stop laughing at your "Theoretical" setup for a dual cap boosted abadoon that you Think works in real world pvp. Its almost as bad the the quad cap booster quad rep medium gun abaddon setup I saw a while back! Here let me repeat for you Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs Please take that abaddon setup - and go and pvp in it for 1 day against pvp mega pilots and point me to where you actually win a battle. Honestly, I havent laughed so much since I read the post from the guy who thinks retributions (a ship with 1 midslot) can take on nano ships! 1. Your post all time with a faceless forum alt. To scared to let everyone see the poor Main behind all this posts? O wait somebody could realy know you and state that you have no Idea about how to use a Amarr BS in PVP. 2. Calling my setup bad(I don¦t think it works, because I know it works) without bringing a better realy shows that you are pure awsome. Sorry i can¦t even say lol, this is not funny! 2. Lasers have the best Puls Range with a good Tracking on mid Range. They got also the best Tracking at long Range. Cap use and the heavy EM focus on many Crystals aswell as Omni Tanks are a issue aswell as Powergrid use on high end Beams. 3. If you read the threads you are posting in, I allready sayed I can¦t beat a propper fitted and piloted Abaddon in my Mega. I know it because I tested it ingame, not yust in EFT! 4. I realy can¦t imagine you ever was in PVP, especialy not with a Amarr BS. Calling people silly for tested setup because you can¦t understand why it works in PVP is realy a poor statment. Serious get off Forums and start PVP ingame, not yust palying with some Numbers in EFT. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!

Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.29 14:51:00 - [1111] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 29/12/2007 14:52:40 Originally by: The Djego 1. Your post all time with a faceless forum alt. To scared to let everyone see the poor Main behind all this posts? O wait somebody could realy know you and state that you have no Idea about how to use a Amarr BS in PVP. 2. Calling my setup bad(I don¦t think it works, because I know it works) without bringing a better realy shows that you are pure awsome. Sorry i can¦t even say lol, this is not funny! 2. Lasers have the best Puls Range with a good Tracking on mid Range. They got also the best Tracking at long Range. Cap use and the heavy EM focus on many Crystals aswell as Omni Tanks are a issue aswell as Powergrid use on high end Beams. 3. If you read the threads you are posting in, I allready sayed I can¦t beat a propper fitted and piloted Abaddon in my Mega. I know it because I tested it ingame, not yust in EFT! 4. I realy can¦t imagine you ever was in PVP, especialy not with a Amarr BS. Calling people silly for tested setup because you can¦t understand why it works in PVP is realy a poor statment. Serious get off Forums and start PVP ingame, not yust palying with some Numbers in EFT. 1. What persona I use to post is irrelevant and does not change Amarr ingame. This is nothing more than Ad hominem attacks. Only a loser in a argument stopps to such methods. 2. Sorry, Mid range PvP virtually does not exist unless you classify NPC rats as "PvP". 99% of pvp is either below 15km, or above 100km. People who PvP for real know this. For smaller 1v1 stuff, battles usually start at 15km - the distance from gate to jumpin. 3. You claim Abaddon is better than Mega for Solo work. You also claim your experience of PvP from a 1v1 punisher friendly dual earlier in a thread. Please get some Real PvP Experience and not freindly NPCer vs NPCer duals. 4. Look - you have never properly pvped in game and your experience of Amarr bs is limited to your friends account - you already told me this. I am not going to repeat what is already in the last 30 pages of this thread - read up and then take your friends account dual capbooster, no mwd abaddon on pvp and then tell us how it performs. Real players are not like NPC rats. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Marn Prestoc Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.29 14:53:00 - [1112] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs I love how you constantly repeat all the bad points and never mention the good ones, or how you constantly repeat the points while ignoring the points that you can't argue against. Worst range for long range fights - Best range for close range fights (neutron blasters have to use null, a lower damage longer range ammo to match the range of pulse with MF). Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships - I call bull http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Preston85/attd2amarrpost3.PNG Only vs 2x EANM + DC (and thats with specs at 5) are lasers really hurt. Vs anything else they're as good as anything else. Use most cap. - and? I wish the shield boost bonuses of minmatar and repair amount of gallente didn't require them to use more cap than it takes amarr to use lasers while using its tanking bonus through passive tanking modules. What a Abaddon spends on firing a Maelstrom spends on tanking... Worst fitting requirements. - Tach's are really the only exception fitting problem. If anything the smaller tiers pulse need increase in fitting use (and increase in stats) to make dropping from higher tier less painful. Mega Vs Abaddon? Amarr ships are better GANG ships, Gallente are more for solo/small gang, hence 1v1 really is favouring the Megathron, but anyway, an Abaddon with the below fitting will compete if not beat a plated-gank Megathron. 8x MP T2 (AN MF) MWD, Heavy Cap Booster, WD, Web 2x HS, DC, EANM, 2x 1600 RT 3x HP rigs. -
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.29 16:04:00 - [1113] Edited by: The Djego on 29/12/2007 16:04:44 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 29/12/2007 14:52:40 Originally by: The Djego stuff 1. What persona I use to post is irrelevant and does not change Amarr ingame. This is nothing more than Ad hominem attacks. Only a loser in a argument stopps to such methods. 2. Sorry, Mid range PvP virtually does not exist unless you classify NPC rats as "PvP". 99% of pvp is either below 15km, or above 100km. People who PvP for real know this. For smaller 1v1 stuff, battles usually start at 15km - the distance from gate to jumpin. 3. You claim Abaddon is better than Mega for Solo work. You also claim your experience of PvP from a 1v1 punisher friendly dual earlier in a thread. Please get some Real PvP Experience and not freindly NPCer vs NPCer duals. 4. Look - you have never properly pvped in game and your experience of Amarr bs is limited to your friends account - you already told me this. I am not going to repeat what is already in the last 30 pages of this thread - read up and then take your friends account dual capbooster, no mwd abaddon on pvp and then tell us how it performs. Real players are not like NPC rats. 1. Only Loosers post with alts, why should someone with a deacend background? I don¦t have to hide anything at all. Looking at you well, you can¦t prove anything, you can¦t even point something out. I could start a random alt, never flown a Amarr ship and yust could say anything you did by yust playing with EFT... 2. Still no clue about a better setup? Do you only know PVP at gates because you got ganket there? I posted a setup and explained why it works. You did, well calling it wrong because you seen A: MWDs on Killbords B: Called a dual Cap booster Fitting PVE (serious ) C: are unable to understand what advantage this ship has. 3. WTS Glases. I sayed a Megathron will loose against a Abaddon in a 1o1. I never sayed Abaddon is the better solo BS, because this is not true. Failing to see the diffrence in better in general to better at this situation? I pointed out the Punisher fight because it was fun(I think it is the 3. time i say that but you simply don¦t understand). Get some real PVP? Hm I got Killbord stats, well do you? Sorry I forgot you prefer to post with a faceless alt. Well preaty oviously you are the one that has no clue and no PVP at all. 4. You got any clue? No? Still not? Well first I told you nothing I posted it in general. A "real" PVP Pilot can come up with a Fitting any time and can say what advantage and disadvantage it has. You never did. A "real" PVP Pilot know that PVP is not limited to gates. A "real" PVP know also how other Ships are fitted and her disadvantages and what will happen in a 1o1 or small Gang fight. To end this stupid JoJo knows best: - you never came up with a PVP Setup - you claim PVP Experience but never pointed out something - you can¦t see why the Abiliy to fight wihout moving, a heavy Tank, huge Optimal and dual Cap Booster is a advantage - you post with a Forum Alt all the time and never proved something yourself - you claim that you know better what happens in a 1o1 than people that allready tested it out at the server instead of EFT - you often state things wrong to build up a opinion that suits you = EPIC FAIL for real man yust stop here ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Sikozu Prioris Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2007.12.29 16:19:00 - [1114] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs Please take that abaddon setup - and go and pvp in it for 1 day against pvp mega pilots and point me to where you actually win a battle. Honestly, I havent laughed so much since I read the post from the guy who thinks retributions (a ship with 1 midslot) can take on nano ships! OH MY GOD Get a clue and actually fly an amarr ship. Lasers DO NOT use the most cap, blasters do. Amarr ships arnt bad. Get it into your head people. If you keep on whining ccp are going to attempt to 'fix' them and completly screw amarr up. They are good as they are. "A enemy fleet emerges from the shadows" - What shadows!?! We're in ****ing space for gods sake
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.29 16:28:00 - [1115] Edited by: The Djego on 29/12/2007 16:28:53 Originally by: Sikozu Prioris OH MY GOD Get a clue and actually fly an amarr ship. Lasers DO NOT use the most cap, blasters do. Amarr ships arnt bad. Get it into your head people. If you keep on whining ccp are going to attempt to 'fix' them and completly screw amarr up. They are good as they are. - Lasers use the most Cap, not Blasters even after the Cap Bonus - some Ships are good some less, they are not all fine(Omen, Maller, Prophecy and Apoc need some love) ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Agil TradeAlt	Posted - 2007.12.29 16:58:00 - [1116] Originally by: Sikozu Prioris OH MY GOD Get a clue and actually fly an amarr ship. Lasers DO NOT use the most cap, blasters do. Tachy Abaddon uses as much cap in just lasers as 8 heavy nos II. Blasters use what? 2-3 Heavy Nos worth of cap?
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.29 17:13:00 - [1117] Originally by: Marn Prestoc Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 29/12/2007 15:02:17 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs I love how you constantly repeat all the bad points and never mention the good ones, or how you constantly repeat the points while ignoring the points that you can't argue against. Worst range for long range fights - Best range for close range fights (neutron blasters have to use null, a lower damage longer range ammo to match the range of pulse with MF). Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships - I call bull http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Preston85/attd2amarrpost3.PNG Only vs 2x EANM + DC (and thats with specs at 5) are lasers really hurt. Vs anything else they're as good as anything. Abaddon highlighted red was highlighted for person I made that version for, link to none-coloured isn't working for some reason. Use most cap. - and? I wish the shield boost bonuses of minmatar and repair amount of gallente didn't require them to use more cap than it takes amarr to use lasers while using its tanking bonus through passive tanking modules. What a Abaddon spends on firing a Maelstrom spends on tanking... Worst fitting requirements. - Tach's are really the only exceptional fitting problem. If anything the smaller tiers pulse need increase in fitting use (and increase in stats) to make dropping from higher tier less painful. Mega Vs Abaddon? Amarr ships are better GANG ships, Gallente are more for solo/small gang, hence 1v1 really is favouring the Megathron, but anyway, an Abaddon with the below fitting will compete if not beat a plated-gank Megathron. 8x MP T2 (AN MF) MWD, Heavy Cap Booster, WD, Web 2x HS, DC, EANM, 2x 1600 RT 3x HP rigs. edit: fecking links Firstly, your pic shows Abaddon using Gyro's and hail. But let us move onto the points you are making Firstly, Close range pvp is 0-10km. Example - Someone jumps into a gate, and both targets are 15km away from each other. The Camper needs to mwd to target and web it asap to stop it escaping back via gate (and perhaps get a bump in). By the time target is locked, it is scrambled and already within web range. let me be serious, you are saying that Amarr have best tracking between 0-10km? Its almost Half Gallente tracking with Faction Ammo. Oh wait - thats what you said - you compared Tracking penalised ammo in non-amarr to normal Ammo in Amarr just to get your anti-amarr message across. Talk about dishonest comparisons! Try comparing with Amarr having Conflag and Amarr have Dread Style tracking! Go on - Do the comparisions for like for like. Yeah - Shocking far worse tracking for Amarr with Conflag vs Hybrid + Null eh? Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.29 17:21:00 - [1118] Originally by: The Djego 1. I would not bet my Money on the Mega even Plated vs the Abbadon. The resistance Bonus, more Armor HP and the Range Bonus favour the Abaddon. The DPS advantage of the Mega is not that big that it w=uld come up at top. 2. Normal Combat Range is 3-25km Close Range. Because it is scrambling Range and allmost all Blasters and AKs are only effective at this Range(Large Aks can fire up to about 35km effective but will do poor Damage at this Range). 3. I only had issues with Guristas because of the high Orbits of some BS. Angels take some time to but not that extrem because of her closer Orbits you can use Crystalls with more Termal Damage. With AN MF you not even mention higher Resistances(2 Heat Sinks minimum). Other Npcs are not a big deal, counting in the good tracking ability of Puls i have to say that i prefere them over Rails or Artillary because of the universal use that is not so mutch limited by Target speed and distance(Trackingcomputer ftw). Lasers are not that bad because of her good hitting ability in Mid Range for PVE. Compared to Rails or Artillary you will hit a lot more often at a closer Range and a orbitting Target. Also I use a Apoc for PVE, so cap is no Problem at all, shure it has less Damage but i like to be able to get myself a new beer during the Mission without to worry about my Ship. So you think it's ok that it takes you maybe two hours to do a mission which takes about 50 minutes with a Raven? You mention trackingspeed. A Megathron has trackingspeed bonus, a Raven doesn't need tracking, a Domi doesn't need tracking, a Rokh has a range bonus and can fit a full rack of 425's (it gives some cap issues, but nothing worth mentioning)... As for matari "ships" I don't know and I don't care. Another thing is that you have to run around like a headless chicken to hunt down or run away from rats if you use pulse on missions. It's not cost effective. Due to the range and damageoutput at a range. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.29 17:29:00 - [1119] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 29/12/2007 17:37:05 Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: The Djego 1. I would not bet my Money on the Mega even Plated vs the Abbadon. The resistance Bonus, more Armor HP and the Range Bonus favour the Abaddon. The DPS advantage of the Mega is not that big that it w=uld come up at top. 2. Normal Combat Range is 3-25km Close Range. Because it is scrambling Range and allmost all Blasters and AKs are only effective at this Range(Large Aks can fire up to about 35km effective but will do poor Damage at this Range). 3. I only had issues with Guristas because of the high Orbits of some BS. Angels take some time to but not that extrem because of her closer Orbits you can use Crystalls with more Termal Damage. With AN MF you not even mention higher Resistances(2 Heat Sinks minimum). Other Npcs are not a big deal, counting in the good tracking ability of Puls i have to say that i prefere them over Rails or Artillary because of the universal use that is not so mutch limited by Target speed and distance(Trackingcomputer ftw). Lasers are not that bad because of her good hitting ability in Mid Range for PVE. Compared to Rails or Artillary you will hit a lot more often at a closer Range and a orbitting Target. Also I use a Apoc for PVE, so cap is no Problem at all, shure it has less Damage but i like to be able to get myself a new beer during the Mission without to worry about my Ship. So you think it's ok that it takes you maybe two hours to do a mission which takes about 50 minutes with a Raven? You mention trackingspeed. A Megathron has trackingspeed bonus, a Raven doesn't need tracking, a Domi doesn't need tracking, a Rokh has a range bonus and can fit a full rack of 425's (it gives some cap issues, but nothing worth mentioning)... As for matari "ships" I don't know and I don't care. Another thing is that you have to run around like a headless chicken to hunt down or run away from rats if you use pulse on missions. It's not cost effective. Due to the range and damageoutput at a range. You are wasting your time Skycrane - The Djego claims that he uses his freinds account to fly amarr, as his pvp experence consists of NPC style encounters. He already confirmed he has max gallente skills and decent minmatar skills, and a low SP Amarr alt, and his Amarr bs experience comes from using a Amarr bs on his friends account as he said himself. I mean, anyone who says that they know pvp as a result of a 1v1 friendly dual with a punisher vs punisher is usually a mission runner who thinks that just because he can do a lvl4, he is some pvp master. For example, He thinks a Abaddon bait tank setup is a solo setup, and assumens that PvPers will behave like NPC's. I mean, he is going against what every quality pvper does, simply because everything he says is perfectly valid when fighting a guristas rat. Going back on topic Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.29 17:54:00 - [1120] Originally by: SkyCrane So you think it's ok that it takes you maybe two hours to do a mission which takes about 50 minutes with a Raven? You mention trackingspeed. A Megathron has trackingspeed bonus, a Raven doesn't need tracking, a Domi doesn't need tracking, a Rokh has a range bonus and can fit a full rack of 425's (it gives some cap issues, but nothing worth mentioning)... As for matari "ships" I don't know and I don't care. Another thing is that you have to run around like a headless chicken to hunt down or run away from rats if you use pulse on missions. It's not cost effective. Due to the range and damageoutput at a range. 1. This is why people skill a raven for Mission running. It is the style Missions are designed in general and how Missles work that give the Raven the advantage, not the tank or the DPS of the Ship itself. 2. A gank fitted Abaddon will do Sansha, Drone and Blood Missions faster than a Raven. 2. A Mega needs Rails for the most Missions Tracking with Rails aint that good, Rohk will does very low Damage. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!

The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.29 18:04:00 - [1121] Originally by: Jonny JoJo You are wasting your time Skycrane - The Djego claims that he uses his freinds account to fly amarr, as his pvp experence consists of NPC style encounters. He already confirmed he has max gallente skills and decent minmatar skills, and a low SP Amarr alt, and his Amarr bs experience comes from using a Amarr bs on his friends account as he said himself. I mean, anyone who says that they know pvp as a result of a 1v1 friendly dual with a punisher vs punisher is usually a mission runner who thinks that just because he can do a lvl4, he is some pvp master. For example, He thinks a Abaddon bait tank setup is a solo setup, and assumens that PvPers will behave like NPC's. I mean, he is going against what every quality pvper does, simply because everything he says is perfectly valid when fighting a guristas rat. Going back on topic Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs 1. of the glasses there where AN AM and Scorch Setups on the Spreadsheet. A "real" PVP Pilot my know that Tracking is not that importend when putting a 90% Web on your target. Oh i allready forgot you got no clue at all. 2. Again you fail reading, understanding of what i posted, quoting. You sound like a little child. 3. again no profe from yourself yust lies, poor you Since you are sound like a little child i will make it simple for you. - POST WITH YOUR MAIN OR DONT POST AT ALL - PROFE OR STFU ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Marn Prestoc Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.29 18:11:00 - [1122] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Firstly, your pic shows Abaddon using Gyro's and hail. But let us move onto the points you are making Firstly, Close range pvp is 0-10km. Example - Someone jumps into a gate, and both targets are 15km away from each other. The Camper needs to mwd to target and web it asap to stop it escaping back via gate (and perhaps get a bump in). By the time target is locked, it is scrambled and already within web range. let me be serious, you are saying that Amarr have best tracking between 0-10km? Its almost Half Gallente tracking with Faction Ammo. Oh wait - thats what you said - you compared Tracking penalised ammo in non-amarr to normal Ammo in Amarr just to get your anti-amarr message across. Talk about dishonest comparisons! Try comparing with Amarr having Conflag and Amarr have Dread Style tracking! Go on - Do the comparisions for like for like. Yeah - Shocking far worse tracking for Amarr with Conflag vs Hybrid + Null eh? YOU FAIL AT READING. Theres 3 Abaddons listed in that image. A 2HS Abaddon, then added a 3HS Abaddon by request and then a 3Gyro AC Abaddon by request! Hence as I said the gyro one is highlighted. Hail was also included by request of Goum. Keep up posting rubbish to avoid replying to the actual points and repeating the same stuff over and over to try and hide it. -
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.29 18:33:00 - [1123] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 29/12/2007 18:36:09 Originally by: Marn Prestoc Originally by: Jonny JoJo Firstly, your pic shows Abaddon using Gyro's and hail. But let us move onto the points you are making Firstly, Close range pvp is 0-10km. Example - Someone jumps into a gate, and both targets are 15km away from each other. The Camper needs to mwd to target and web it asap to stop it escaping back via gate (and perhaps get a bump in). By the time target is locked, it is scrambled and already within web range. let me be serious, you are saying that Amarr have best tracking between 0-10km? Its almost Half Gallente tracking with Faction Ammo. Oh wait - thats what you said - you compared Tracking penalised ammo in non-amarr to normal Ammo in Amarr just to get your anti-amarr message across. Talk about dishonest comparisons! Try comparing with Amarr having Conflag and Amarr have Dread Style tracking! Go on - Do the comparisions for like for like. Yeah - Shocking far worse tracking for Amarr with Conflag vs Hybrid + Null eh? YOU FAIL AT READING. Theres 3 Abaddons listed in that image. A 2HS Abaddon, then added a 3HS Abaddon by request and then a 3Gyro AC Abaddon by request! Hence as I said the gyro one is highlighted. Hail was also included by request of Goum. Keep up posting rubbish to avoid replying to the actual points and repeating the same stuff over and over to try and hide it. Speaking of posting rubbish, how do you feel about falsely comparing Gallente with t2 tracking penalised ammo, against Amarr with t1 unpenalised ammo just to falsely make the reader beleive that Amarr have better tracking than Gallente? If you compared Amarr + Conflag with Gallente + Null, or even both with faction ammo, you would have seen that what I said about Amarr having hedius tracking is actually true. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.29 18:36:00 - [1124] Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 29/12/2007 18:10:11 Originally by: Jonny JoJo You are wasting your time Skycrane - The Djego claims that he uses his freinds account to fly amarr, as his pvp experence consists of NPC style encounters. He already confirmed he has max gallente skills and decent minmatar skills, and a low SP Amarr alt, and his Amarr bs experience comes from using a Amarr bs on his friends account as he said himself. I mean, anyone who says that they know pvp as a result of a 1v1 friendly dual with a punisher vs punisher is usually a mission runner who thinks that just because he can do a lvl4, he is some pvp master. For example, He thinks a Abaddon bait tank setup is a solo setup, and assumens that PvPers will behave like NPC's. I mean, he is going against what every quality pvper does, simply because everything he says is perfectly valid when fighting a guristas rat. Going back on topic Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs 1. Again no glasses? There where AN AM and Scorch Setups on the Spreadsheet. A "real" PVP Pilot may know that Tracking is not that importend when putting a 90% Web on your target. Oh i allready forgot you got no clue at all. BTW time till death only based on DPS vs HP(incuding Damage Type and Resists) not on Tracking. 2. Again you fail reading, understanding of what i posted and quoting. You sound like a little child. 3. again no profe from yourself yust lies, poor you Since you are sound like a little child i will make it simple for you. - POST WITH YOUR MAIN OR DONT POST AT ALL - PROFE OR STFU Hows the 1v1 Punisher Battle coming along? You said you have Max Gallente skills, yet you think Amarr is balanced because you can kill NPC's. Bravo Bravo. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.29 18:43:00 - [1125] Originally by: The Djego 2. A gank fitted Abaddon will do Sansha, Drone and Blood Missions faster than a Raven. 2. A Mega needs Rails for the most Missions Tracking with Rails aint that good, Rohk will does very low Damage. Hey, but you said that you use apocs. Darn. Raven is best PvE ship, Abaddon is good vs bloods. Which is better? Depends, as Raven has no tracking issues, and Amarr does. Of course, both can use drones against small rats anyway. But I find it funny that you mention that a hybrid user needs rails for missions, and that Rokh + Rails is low damage. Man, I can see those people dropping their Domi's and their Ravens and switching over to rokhs. Now how about taking the abaddon on.... say, Angels Extravaganza or any non-sansha/blood mission. Oh Dear, such horrible performance. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.29 19:03:00 - [1126] Edited by: The Djego on 29/12/2007 19:09:31 Edited by: The Djego on 29/12/2007 19:07:01 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego 2. A gank fitted Abaddon will do Sansha, Drone and Blood Missions faster than a Raven. 2. A Mega needs Rails for the most Missions Tracking with Rails aint that good, Rohk will does very low Damage. Hey, but you said that you use apocs. Darn. Raven is best PvE ship, Abaddon is good vs bloods. Which is better? Depends, as Raven has no tracking issues, and Amarr does. Of course, both can use drones against small rats anyway. But I find it funny that you mention that a hybrid user needs rails for missions, and that Rokh + Rails is low damage. Man, I can see those people dropping their Domi's and their Ravens and switching over to rokhs. Now how about taking the abaddon on.... say, Angels Extravaganza or any non-sansha/blood mission. Oh Dear, such horrible performance. Again you failed reading why i use the Apoc instead of the Abaddon. As you mentioned AE, if you had a clue, that there are only about 3-4 BS in this hole Mission that don¦t get into AN MF Optimal, well you would not ask. Also if you use Amarr BS you would know this things... Seriously I doubt you ever used a Amarr BS at all. And no prove from you again, well i have found something that can show you how PVP works and please do me a favor and count the MWD fitted Abbadons... Hypnotic Controll by Cown ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.29 19:44:00 - [1127] I'm back! I couldn't stay unsubbed once I got a new computer... Dual core, pixel shader 4, dx10, etc... Yeah baby... On topic however, good to see this is still going strong, and there are some good arguments here. I hope CCP realise Amarr need a major buff, and not just a tweak. Cheers! Latest Video, Click Here!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.29 19:54:00 - [1128] Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 29/12/2007 19:28:16 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego 2. A gank fitted Abaddon will do Sansha, Drone and Blood Missions faster than a Raven. 2. A Mega needs Rails for the most Missions Tracking with Rails aint that good, Rohk will does very low Damage. Hey, but you said that you use apocs. Darn. Raven is best PvE ship, Abaddon is good vs bloods. Which is better? Depends, as Raven has no tracking issues, and Amarr does. Of course, both can use drones against small rats anyway. But I find it funny that you mention that a hybrid user needs rails for missions, and that Rokh + Rails is low damage. Man, I can see those people dropping their Domi's and their Ravens and switching over to rokhs. Now how about taking the abaddon on.... say, Angels Extravaganza or any non-sansha/blood mission. Oh Dear, such horrible performance. Again you failed reading why i use the Apoc instead of the Abaddon. As you mentioned AE, if you had a clue, that there are only about 3-4 BS in this hole Mission that don¦t get into AN MF Optimal, well you would not ask. Also if you use Amarr BS you would know this things... Seriously I doubt you ever used a Amarr BS at all. Angels have highist resit EM on armour and shields. 70%+. Please read 15 pages ago where this was already discussed. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.29 20:43:00 - [1129] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 29/12/2007 19:28:16 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego 2. A gank fitted Abaddon will do Sansha, Drone and Blood Missions faster than a Raven. 2. A Mega needs Rails for the most Missions Tracking with Rails aint that good, Rohk will does very low Damage. Hey, but you said that you use apocs. Darn. Raven is best PvE ship, Abaddon is good vs bloods. Which is better? Depends, as Raven has no tracking issues, and Amarr does. Of course, both can use drones against small rats anyway. But I find it funny that you mention that a hybrid user needs rails for missions, and that Rokh + Rails is low damage. Man, I can see those people dropping their Domi's and their Ravens and switching over to rokhs. Now how about taking the abaddon on.... say, Angels Extravaganza or any non-sansha/blood mission. Oh Dear, such horrible performance. Again you failed reading why i use the Apoc instead of the Abaddon. As you mentioned AE, if you had a clue, that there are only about 3-4 BS in this hole Mission that don¦t get into AN MF Optimal, well you would not ask. Also if you use Amarr BS you would know this things... Seriously I doubt you ever used a Amarr BS at all. Angels have highist resit EM on armour and shields. 70%+. Please read 15 pages ago where this was already discussed. Hm now think why I mentioned that nearly all BS are in AN MF Range? I will stop posting here. Only a wast of time. People like you are the reason why Threads like this that try to keep on topic and comming up with numbers and diffrent good opinions and argumentations end up in beeing Troll grounds. Serious why do you troll here? It is quite easy to see that you have poor knowlage about the Ships and Weapons you complaint about. Both in PVP and PVE. Also you never came up with a single Fitting, Situation where you used an Amarr Ship, Spreadsheed or comaprece to other Ships/Weapons of the own or other races. Other People came up with real good Ideas and interesting Argumentations. I realy hope CCP will take a look about Omen, Maller, Prophecy and Apoc. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.29 21:40:00 - [1130] I'm pretty sure the general agreement is that the Abaddon and Armageddon are two of the great Amarr ships, and aside from the Abaddon's shortness of cap for sniper situations. It's more like over half of the others that are of concern.

Plausable Swap	Posted - 2007.12.29 22:40:00 - [1131] Guys, lasers are FINE. That's why most people fit autocannons to amarr ships despite the AMAZING 50% reduction in cap use for laser weapons. sheesh! ++
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.29 22:43:00 - [1132] Originally by: The Djego 1. This is why people skill a raven for Mission running. It is the style Missions are designed in general and how Missles work that give the Raven the advantage, not the tank or the DPS of the Ship itself. 2. A gank fitted Abaddon will do Sansha, Drone and Blood Missions faster than a Raven. 2. A Mega needs Rails for the most Missions Tracking with Rails aint that good, Rohk will does very low Damage. A 'fullgank Abaddon' dies very quick in most Sansha missions. A Rokh with a full rack of 245's outdamage an Abaddon with east on all missions but Sansha and Blood Raiders. A Mega with rails still has far better tracking than an Abaddon with beams. Not sure how it is with pulses though. And to say that the Ravens DPS and the tank has nothing top do with why it's the "missionrunners iwin-button" is interesting. While DPS on turrets are theoretical, DPS on missiles are true... Except the odd missile you lose to defender missiles. And you have 'natural' and the active shieldregen which is quite effective on missions. Something you don't have on armor tankers. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Marn Prestoc Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.29 22:51:00 - [1133] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 29/12/2007 18:38:17 Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 29/12/2007 18:36:09 Originally by: Marn Prestoc Originally by: Jonny JoJo Firstly, your pic shows Abaddon using Gyro's and hail. But let us move onto the points you are making Firstly, Close range pvp is 0-10km. Example - Someone jumps into a gate, and both targets are 15km away from each other. The Camper needs to mwd to target and web it asap to stop it escaping back via gate (and perhaps get a bump in). By the time target is locked, it is scrambled and already within web range. let me be serious, you are saying that Amarr have best tracking between 0-10km? Its almost Half Gallente tracking with Faction Ammo. Oh wait - thats what you said - you compared Tracking penalised ammo in non-amarr to normal Ammo in Amarr just to get your anti-amarr message across. Talk about dishonest comparisons! Try comparing with Amarr having Conflag and Amarr have Dread Style tracking! Go on - Do the comparisions for like for like. Yeah - Shocking far worse tracking for Amarr with Conflag vs Hybrid + Null eh? YOU FAIL AT READING. Theres 3 Abaddons listed in that image. A 2HS Abaddon, then added a 3HS Abaddon by request and then a 3Gyro AC Abaddon by request! Hence as I said the gyro one is highlighted. Hail was also included by request of Goum. Keep up posting rubbish to avoid replying to the actual points and repeating the same stuff over and over to try and hide it. Speaking of posting rubbish, how do you feel about falsely comparing Gallente with t2 tracking penalised ammo, against Amarr with t1 unpenalised ammo just to falsely make the reader beleive that Amarr have better tracking than Gallente? If you compared Amarr + Conflag with Gallente + Null, or even both with faction ammo, you would have seen that what I said about Amarr having hedius tracking is actually true. Almost half Gallente Tracking with Faction ammo, and tracking that would make Moros's proud with Conflag. Where have I compared t2 blaster ammo vs laser t1? Where have I compared tracking at all here? I haven't, your posting fictional rubbish again to avoid the actual points I made. Go on, reply to each point I made earlier rather than constantly replying to stuff I never even said. -
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.29 23:34:00 - [1134] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 29/12/2007 23:37:07 Originally by: Marn Prestoc Where have I compared t2 blaster ammo vs laser t1? Where have I compared tracking at all here? I haven't, your posting fictional rubbish again to avoid the actual points I made. Go on, reply to each point I made earlier rather than constantly replying to stuff I never even said. On http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=632743&page=38#1134 You said *Best range for close range fights (neutron blasters have to use null, a lower damage longer range ammo to match the range of pulse with MF).* Now call me an idiot, but you are clearly comparing t2 blaster ammo to t1 laser ammo. You were saying that Lasers have best range, and by implacation, better tracking than Null Blaster. You know, that post I made where I said.... Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:00:00 - [1135] As a little advice I would not give the JoJo Troll any more food. Jenny(I don¦t give a danm about the person behind) is trolling this Thread for the Sake of Trolling only. I don¦t think that the Player behind this Char is this kind of a stupid, but has a very childish beavior. Simply ignore him there is no contructive end in this argumentation anyway. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:08:00 - [1136] Edited by: SkyCrane on 30/12/2007 00:14:55 Edited by: SkyCrane on 30/12/2007 00:10:37 Hmmm, lets see here... Mega Pulse : 0.03375 rad/sec Dual Mega Pulse : 0.0375 rad/sec Electron Blaster : 0.05 rad/sec Neutron Blaster : 0.0433 rad/sec And to use a small gun for referance Dual Light Pulse Laser: 0.27375 rad/sec EDIT: Ooops. Forgot the Dual laser... ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:09:00 - [1137] Originally by: The Djego As a little advice I would not give the JoJo Troll any more food. Jenny(I don¦t give a danm about the person behind) is trolling this Thread for the Sake of Trolling only. I don¦t think that the Player behind this Char is this kind of a stupid, but has a very childish beavior. Simply ignore him there is no contructive end in this argumentation anyway. Trying to get forum mods and admins and/or 'spy's to track me down is not something that would make your well respected german sub-community of eve proud. Oh wait, I just googled "eve D2-Gate" Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:22:00 - [1138] Originally by: SkyCrane Edited by: SkyCrane on 30/12/2007 00:10:37 Hmmm, lets see here... Mega Pulse : 0.03375 rad/sec Electron Blaster : 0.05 rad/sec Neutron Blaster : 0.0433 rad/sec And to use a small gun for referance Dual Light Pulse Laser: 0.27375 rad/sec Not only that - lets take this 1 step further. These figures include No ship bonus and No skills bonus. Remember that the Hybrid user may get a 37.5% tracking bonus added on top if they are in a mega for example. Megapulse II + Conflag = 0.0168 Electron Blaster II + Void = 0.025 Electron Blaster II + Null = 0.0375 Neutron Blaster II + Void = 0.0216 Neutron Blaster II + Null = 0.0324 Dreadnaught Ion Seige Blaster = 0.0216 Now this mega, even excluding its ship tracking bonus, compleatly outclasses Megapulse for tracking. Even a DREADNAUGHT Blaster has better tracking than Megapulse II + Conflag! Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:25:00 - [1139] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego As a little advice I would not give the JoJo Troll any more food. Jenny(I don¦t give a danm about the person behind) is trolling this Thread for the Sake of Trolling only. I don¦t think that the Player behind this Char is this kind of a stupid, but has a very childish beavior. Simply ignore him there is no contructive end in this argumentation anyway. Trying to get forum mods and admins and/or 'spy's to track me down is not something that would make your well respected german sub-community of eve proud. Oh wait, I just googled "eve D2-Gate" yeah I miss the block Feature here you are right, also the Mods that kick you very fast for this kind of posting And yeah rewind the tape of the IP Spy of the german Forum let you look quite stupid -> 10/10 Troll Points gratz ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:29:00 - [1140] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego As a little advice I would not give the JoJo Troll any more food. Jenny(I don¦t give a danm about the person behind) is trolling this Thread for the Sake of Trolling only. I don¦t think that the Player behind this Char is this kind of a stupid, but has a very childish beavior. Simply ignore him there is no contructive end in this argumentation anyway. Trying to get forum mods and admins and/or 'spy's to track me down is not something that would make your well respected german sub-community of eve proud. Oh wait, I just googled "eve D2-Gate" yeah I miss the block Feature here you are right, also the Mods that kick you very fast for this kind of posting And yeah rewind the tape of the IP Spy of the german Forum let you look quite stupid -> 10/10 Troll Points gratz Dude, give it a break. Go ahead and set loose the hounds whenever you finish using your friends account for Amarr Battleships. if you disagree with what I have to say, then attack my argument insted of this campaign of internet lolz. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)

The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:35:00 - [1141] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego As a little advice I would not give the JoJo Troll any more food. Jenny(I don¦t give a danm about the person behind) is trolling this Thread for the Sake of Trolling only. I don¦t think that the Player behind this Char is this kind of a stupid, but has a very childish beavior. Simply ignore him there is no contructive end in this argumentation anyway. Trying to get forum mods and admins and/or 'spy's to track me down is not something that would make your well respected german sub-community of eve proud. Oh wait, I just googled "eve D2-Gate" yeah I miss the block Feature here you are right, also the Mods that kick you very fast for this kind of posting And yeah rewind the tape of the IP Spy of the german Forum let you look quite stupid -> 10/10 Troll Points gratz Dude, give it a break. Go ahead and set loose the hounds whenever you finish using your friends account for Amarr Battleships. if you disagree with what I have to say, then attack my argument insted of this campaign of internet lolz. Why should I? You are not interested in this thread besides your fun trolling it. One simple question is trolling the Forums more fun than playing the game to you? ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:41:00 - [1142] Originally by: The Djego Would be not suprized it you use SkyCran to dualtroll.. Oh, wow.. And you talk about trolling? You just involved a total non-trolling stranger into your own trollingallogations... Harsh ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:55:00 - [1143] Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: The Djego Would be not suprized it you use SkyCran to dualtroll.. Oh, wow.. And you talk about trolling? You just involved a total non-trolling stranger into your own trollingallogations... Harsh Well no Corp or Aliance sign. And every time you give out strange comments that the Ship and Module Fitting Sticky could awnser to. By the way of starting the Thread over and over again well I got this opinion. If Im wrong well sorry but I can¦t think of a normal player that complains on the one hand that he has low experience on PVP and how to do Missions with Lasers and on the other Hand complains about Missles(Defender Chance) and Rail/Laser Tracking comparence. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:58:00 - [1144] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 30/12/2007 00:58:24 Originally by: The Djego Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: The Djego Would be not suprized it you use SkyCran to dualtroll.. Oh, wow.. And you talk about trolling? You just involved a total non-trolling stranger into your own trollingallogations... Harsh Well no Corp or Aliance sign. And every time you give out strange comments that the Ship and Module Fitting Sticky could awnser to. By the way of starting the Thread over and over again well I got this opinion. If Im wrong well sorry but I can¦t think of a normal player that complains on the one hand that he has low experience on PVP and how to do Missions with Lasers and on the other Hand complains about Missles(Defender Chance) and Rail/Laser Tracking comparence. Dude. Angels Extravaganza. 70%+ EM resist..... Amarr is not efficent for that, Ravens can solo this in 30-40mins easaly. Apoc/Abaddon takes how many hours? After all - it is you proclaiming the benifit sof Amarr vs Angels. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:14:00 - [1145] Well, this is getting out of hand topicwise, but The DJego I don't know what I've done you wrong, but I'm gonna end it here and now by adressing this last post to you DJego Quote: Well no Corp or Aliance sign. Not showing which corp I'm from is not a sign of "dualtrolling". Quote: And every time you give out strange comments that the Ship and Module Fitting Sticky could awnser to. Do I give out strange comments which the shipfitting sticky could have answers to? Well if it fits in here.. why not? Quote: By the way of starting the Thread over and over again well I got this opinion. Am I starting the thread over and over again? Quote: If Im wrong well sorry but I can¦t think of a normal player that complains on the one hand that he has low experience on PVP and how to do Missions with Lasers and on the other Hand complains about Missles(Defender Chance) and Rail/Laser Tracking comparence. I don't see how you work that one out, but hey.. I guess I'm not very smart. Where do I give you the idea that I'm complaining of my low PvP experience? I'm pointing it out as a fact so avoid ******** "L2P" and "NOOB" comments on my posts... And where am I complaining about missiles? (defender chance)? I merely pointed out 1 of the weaknesses missiles has in missions. And what's the problem with comparing lasers and rails trackingspeeds when it's being discussed in this thread? ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:27:00 - [1146] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 30/12/2007 00:58:24 Originally by: The Djego Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: The Djego Would be not suprized it you use SkyCran to dualtroll.. Oh, wow.. And you talk about trolling? You just involved a total non-trolling stranger into your own trollingallogations... Harsh Well no Corp or Aliance sign. And every time you give out strange comments that the Ship and Module Fitting Sticky could awnser to. By the way of starting the Thread over and over again well I got this opinion. If Im wrong well sorry but I can¦t think of a normal player that complains on the one hand that he has low experience on PVP and how to do Missions with Lasers and on the other Hand complains about Missles(Defender Chance) and Rail/Laser Tracking comparence. Dude. Angels Extravaganza. 70%+ EM resist..... Amarr is not efficent for that, Ravens can solo this in 30-40mins easaly. Apoc/Abaddon takes how many hours? After all - it is you proclaiming the benifit sof Amarr vs Angels. Well if you fly Amarr BS you would know. Simple as it is stop trolling. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:51:00 - [1147] Originally by: SkyCrane Well, this is getting out of hand topicwise, but The DJego I don't know what I've done you wrong, but I'm gonna end it here and now by adressing this last post to you DJego Quote: Well no Corp or Aliance sign. Not showing which corp I'm from is not a sign of "dualtrolling". Quote: And every time you give out strange comments that the Ship and Module Fitting Sticky could awnser to. Do I give out strange comments which the shipfitting sticky could have answers to? Well if it fits in here.. why not? Quote: By the way of starting the Thread over and over again well I got this opinion. Am I starting the thread over and over again? Quote: If Im wrong well sorry but I can¦t think of a normal player that complains on the one hand that he has low experience on PVP and how to do Missions with Lasers and on the other Hand complains about Missles(Defender Chance) and Rail/Laser Tracking comparence. I don't see how you work that one out, but hey.. I guess I'm not very smart. Where do I give you the idea that I'm complaining of my low PvP experience? I'm pointing it out as a fact so avoid ******** "L2P" and "NOOB" comments on my posts... And where am I complaining about missiles? (defender chance)? I merely pointed out 1 of the weaknesses missiles has in missions. And what's the problem with comparing lasers and rails trackingspeeds when it's being discussed in this thread? 1. you stated your low PVP experinace 1 side ago... 2. Well you complained about the Boni on the Domi and the Rohk, also mentioned the Missle Defender Chance(overrated by far to many) youst one side ago 3. What did you wan¦t to state with the Tracking? A Laser has more Range and less Tracking on a Puls basis. Quite simple to see and more than obivious if you can fly multiply races. Is this a bad thing? A good Thing? Well your post only mentioned the Tracking nothing more... ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Uchuu Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2007.12.30 02:01:00 - [1148] I've completely skipped all the posts since page 30 or so cause I assume this thread is evolving like most amarr threads do. I only read the last couple of posts.... Eh... Angels Extravaganza isn't that bad. I do it in a abaddon with megapulse II, and use valks. Who here wants to bet that the devs stopped reading after page 1?
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.30 02:25:00 - [1149] Edited by: SkyCrane on 30/12/2007 02:30:22 Originally by: The Djego lol...? So by pointing out my own flaws as a PvPer and pointing out disadvantages on other ships is whining? I'm amazed.. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.12.30 02:32:00 - [1150] The devs never read this thread, let alone the very informative Page 1. But, what`s funny is that they keep re-directing people that create new threads about Amarr ships to this thread... Know what that means? This is the official "Amarr Dev Trashcan"

Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.30 05:33:00 - [1151] Edited by: Meridius Dex on 30/12/2007 05:34:23 I have to say one of the worst things I ever read about EVE was that the developers were avid participants in the game itself. It just deflated me when I heard it. Nothing could be a worse precursor for game imbalance than the 'brain trust' of any given MMO being prejudiced by their own narrow, personal viewpoints. Objectivity and a detached, macrocosmic worldview would always be far more desirable traits for a good developer. How many devs are speed tankers? How many are Gallente? How many on staff fly Assault Frigates? Clearly none fly Amarr - at least not without all maxed V-level skills. -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Ariel Dawn Beets and Gravy Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.30 06:09:00 - [1152] OP is based on a fair number of impractical ship setups and doesn't take into account falloff and optimals of different racial weaponry. Minmatar tend to do the lowest damage and dedicate two bonuses to their weapons like Amarr ships, but of course at the advantage of being capless weaponry. That out of the way, being a non-Amarr pilot I agree that the cap use of lasers is excessive and that changes should be laser-focused instead of ship-focused to prevent or dissuade Amarrian ships from fitting autocannons whilst using the massive cap excess to build a very powerful tank. A general reduction on laser capacitor use or a role bonus for ships intended to be used with them seems like an entry point towards fixing the problem; although the already existing laser reduction bonus on ships should remain as it is an indirect damage bonus (as it can stay in the fight longer so to speak), and short-lasting fights are an area in which Amarr currently excels at.
General StarScream Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.30 09:39:00 - [1153] This thred is bs like my past posting on the fourm. Amarr dont need any love, they are far better than any of the other races. A geddon can dish out the same amount of dps of a mega with better tank, and mutch better range. Ohheeyyeee Boost it more"=?#%)=% man people just suck, trying to boost there own race all the time, amarr needs a nerf not a boost. Gallente uses allmost the same amount of Cap as amarr. and while gallente dont have good drone ships other than domi and Ish, thees ships suck cuse they cant fit a Rack of guns and a tank, like the other ships, so they are forced to use drones only, and a good tank. while amarr can dish out huge amount of dps at 2-20km range++++ with 5 t2 drones as well. Most people have even Res, on armor tanks, even tho em is at a high base, it dont mean people gona use a low slot to fit a em hardner. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
Khes	Posted - 2007.12.30 09:50:00 - [1154] I think all races should have their own thread like this, full of people lobbying for their own race to get buffed It kind of feels like it is an election going on. If someone post something about a race that should get buffed all others within that race automaticly post to show their support just in case a dev might come along and see it. The longer the thread the bigger chance on getting through to the devs. It is very sad that it has become to this.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.30 10:12:00 - [1155] Originally by: General StarScream Gallente uses allmost the same amount of Cap as amarr. Stick to COAD StarScream. You posts there is almost as bad as they are here. You are aware that Amarr closerange weapons, such as Megapulse + Conflag has worse tracking that any NON-Amarr Turret DREADNAUGHT Closerange weapons? You are also saying that Gallente use 8 heavy nos II worth of drain to fire railguns? (thats how much amarr use to fire tach) Oh wait - isent there a "b0b" thread you are meant to nercro StarScream? Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.30 10:15:00 - [1156] Originally by: The Djego 3. What did you wan¦t to state with the Tracking? A Laser has more Range and less Tracking on a Puls basis. Quite simple to see and more than obivious if you can fly multiply races. Is this a bad thing? A good Thing? Well your post only mentioned the Tracking nothing more... Let me spell it out for you. Amarr are the only race where Close range, such as Megapulse + Conflag has worse tracking that any non-Amarr DREADNAUGHT Close range turret Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
General StarScream Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.30 10:42:00 - [1157] The tracking is ok, to hit targets, Amarr is great in Gangs for heavy hitting tackeld targets. they are not uber solo race, but do well enuff vs other bs. most fights in eve are gang related, so the amarr shine. its just people whom use the base stats to say they suck. while it seems they have no clue how to use the ship spec, and where to use it. I for one dont want every singel ship in eve to be the same. you cant have uber dps at all ranges+ tracking+ all dam types. + tank+ drones, and uber cap at the same time. with the best res in game. each ship in eve should be uniq for special roles, so they fit well in a gang. min got no cap for wepons, same with cald missiles, but they got less dps, not alot, but a bit less but they have the strongest tanks. (in gangs) it dont matter much tho, as long as you set your gang up right, all the races in eve shine. but its eve, and i think the problem, is that people think that there race is the weekest, i feel the same about gallente, i wish i had gone amarr,caldri or min, for meny resons, but im sure i would feel it the other way around if i had skilled in any of the other races. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
General StarScream Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.30 10:44:00 - [1158] And dont forget about the 1 sec reload to other type of crystals. and no ammo drain, this is a huge +. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.30 10:53:00 - [1159] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 30/12/2007 10:55:17 Originally by: General StarScream And dont forget about the 1 sec reload to other type of crystals. and no ammo drain, this is a huge +. Ecept that crystals take longer to reload than conventional ammo if you have more than 4 turrets due to the year old crystal reload bug that they introduced when they made crystals decayable. Oh and crystals are most expensive ammo and they decay randomly. Amarr BS has to carry around 40mil of ammo, the most expensive ammo around. You also said they have decent tracking? Dude.... Close range Amarr weapons, such as Megapulse + Conflag, have worse tracking than even non-Amarr DREADNAUGHTS close range turrets Amarr are the only race to have worse than dread tracking. Dont you see a problem with that? Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
General StarScream Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:03:00 - [1160] You know other t2 ammo reduce tracking as well. you can use faction, like amarr navy multi, wich does about the same dam. so thats no reson to boost amarr, they are very very very good as it is, and i think boosting amarr will just lead to more threds like this, from other pilots not flying amarr. when boosting something you Need to think about the other people as well. if it fair to you, that your race is to be better than the others? cuse thats what the amarr cry seems to be about. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn

SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:25:00 - [1161] Edited by: SkyCrane on 30/12/2007 11:25:13 Originally by: General StarScream You know other t2 ammo reduce tracking as well. you can use faction, like amarr navy multi, wich does about the same dam. so thats no reson to boost amarr, they are very very very good as it is, and i think boosting amarr will just lead to more threds like this, from other pilots not flying amarr. when boosting something you Need to think about the other people as well. if it fair to you, that your race is to be better than the others? cuse thats what the amarr cry seems to be about. You don't get the point here, do you? Everybody knows that T2 ammo has trackingpenalty, but no other guns gets almost useless when they fit T2 ammo. And if you check around the forum, I'm sure you'll see Gallente whinethreads too. Like the "DON'T KILL THE MYRMIDON" whinage which is absolutely absurd... Nobody in here is asking for Amarr to become the alltime best race in the whole wild world. All we want is a little boost to become competetive. Nobody's looking for Quote: you cant have uber dps at all ranges+ tracking+ all dam types. + tank+ drones, and uber cap at the same time. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
General StarScream Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:38:00 - [1162] lol thats what everyone seems to want, cuse alot of the amarr pilots want diffrent things, if they got what they say is wrong with amarr fixed, amarr would be like a jovian race. then fix T2 ammo on all races? maybe? or fix armor tanking to be inline with sheild tanking? why boost amarr? theres alot of ships that armor tank.have cap problems, and so on. and people dont seem to understand, that if something is changed it will be overpowerd. hey i cant run a 80% all res tank with 3 large t2 armor reps. pls fix it, i cant tank 3 carriers at once. my race suck. this is how the amarr whine looks like Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
J Valkor Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:42:00 - [1163] Edited by: J Valkor on 30/12/2007 11:44:29 I saw a curse disable the active tank of each primary as it was called it. It was beautiful to see BS explode while waiting for the gate to work after their recent act of aggression. Of course, the only reason they were running is cause all of them were perma jammed from our Kitsune/Rook. But they would have gotten away with maybe only a single loss if it wasn't for the curse nuking their cap. A beautiful combined arms scenario. Their ships melted into oblivion under a hail of missiles. My Nighthawk and several manticores + interdictors/destroyers.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:45:00 - [1164] Originally by: General StarScream lol thats what everyone seems to want, cuse alot of the amarr pilots want diffrent things, if they got what they say is wrong with amarr fixed, amarr would be like a jovian race. then fix T2 ammo on all races? maybe? or fix armor tanking to be inline with sheild tanking? why boost amarr? theres alot of ships that armor tank.have cap problems, and so on. and people dont seem to understand, that if something is changed it will be overpowerd. hey i cant run a 80% all res tank with 3 large t2 armor reps. pls fix it, i cant tank 3 carriers at once. my race suck. this is how the amarr whine looks like Sorry StarScream - you need to join your buddies and troll COAD section of eve forums more. You have a legendary reputation to throw useless info into serious discussions IN COAD section of forums, but unlike COAD - we dont want Amarr to be Winners - we want them to be competitive. All we want is Amarr to be competitive with other races. Nobody wants OMGWTF because that will just result in a nerf. So please go away and troll elseware. Amarr have serious problems, and if the fact that non-Amarr Dreads have better close range tracking than Megapulse + Conflg, it highslights SERIOUS problems with the Amarr concept. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:52:00 - [1165] Originally by: General StarScream then fix T2 ammo on all races? maybe? or fix armor tanking to be inline with sheild tanking? Or just fix lasers so we don't need the prenerfed "10% less cap usagbe to lasers".... ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
General StarScream Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.30 11:59:00 - [1166] you dont need to use t2 ammo, you can have it with you, and change it you feel you need it more than the faction crystals. wich will take what 1sec to change? and you get normal tracking, oh and you could maybe fit a Tracking comp to fix it as well=? there is mid slots on amarr ships right? Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.30 12:04:00 - [1167] Originally by: General StarScream you dont need to use t2 ammo, you can have it with you, and change it you feel you need it more than the faction crystals. wich will take what 1sec to change? The low relative fall-off of pulse lasers compared to blasters and auto-cannon means that you'll need to change your ammo type more frequently than with other types. Quote: and you get normal tracking, oh and you could maybe fit a Tracking comp to fix it as well=? there is mid slots on amarr ships right? Yes, we do have mid slots. The lowest number out of all of the races as it happens... Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Marn Prestoc Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.30 13:18:00 - [1168] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 29/12/2007 23:37:07 Originally by: Marn Prestoc Where have I compared t2 blaster ammo vs laser t1? Where have I compared tracking at all here? I haven't, your posting fictional rubbish again to avoid the actual points I made. Go on, reply to each point I made earlier rather than constantly replying to stuff I never even said. On http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=632743&page=38#1134 You said *Best range for close range fights (neutron blasters have to use null, a lower damage longer range ammo to match the range of pulse with MF).* Now call me an idiot, but you are clearly comparing t2 blaster ammo to t1 laser ammo. You were saying that Lasers have best range, and by implacation, better tracking than Null Blaster. You know, that post I made where I said.... Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs So out of 4 points, you turn one about range into tracking... congrats at the trolling. Max damage faction ammo is better than max damage t2. Long range T2 ammo is better than long range faction ammo. Blasters have no other option if they want to hit at 15km+ than null. Lasers have another option than conflag in AN MF. And yes even with tracking penalty of null a Mega's blasters will track better than lasers with t1 ammo. Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 30/12/2007 00:40:52 Originally by: SkyCrane Edited by: SkyCrane on 30/12/2007 00:10:37 Hmmm, lets see here... Mega Pulse : 0.03375 rad/sec Electron Blaster : 0.05 rad/sec Neutron Blaster : 0.0433 rad/sec And to use a small gun for referance Dual Light Pulse Laser: 0.27375 rad/sec Not only that - lets take this 1 step further. These figures include No ship bonus and No skills bonus. Remember that the Hybrid user may get a 37.5% tracking bonus added on top if they are in a mega for example. Megapulse II + Conflag = 0.0168 Electron Blaster II + Void = 0.025 Electron Blaster II + Null = 0.0375 Neutron Blaster II + Void = 0.0216 Neutron Blaster II + Null = 0.0324 Dreadnaught Ion Seige Blaster = 0.0216 Dreadnaught Arty = 0.0216 Dreadnaught Pulse = 0.0168 Now this mega, even excluding its ship tracking bonus, compleatly outclasses Megapulse for tracking. Even a DREADNAUGHT Blaster/Arty has better tracking than Megapulse II + Conflag! Heres where you again show your lack of knowledge, check out the stat on weapons called SIGNATURE. Nothing tracks as bad as XL weapons, so stop saying it. You still haven't replied to the other points I made, you keep repeating this tracking point instead... keep up the trolling. -
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.30 13:31:00 - [1169] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 30/12/2007 13:32:05 Originally by: Marn Prestoc Heres where you again show your lack of knowledge, check out the stat on weapons called SIGNATURE. Nothing tracks as bad as XL weapons, so stop saying it. Except you missed out the part where if you cannot track, you do 0 dps. Even XL weapons can do DPS due to the way sig works, but if you cannot track, then no amount of luck is going to make you do damage. You say nothing tracks as bad as XL weapons. I have clearly shown that Megapulse + Conflag tracks even worse than non-Amarr Capital Sized close range turrets. Surely your should be saying that megapulse + conflag needs to be reworked, perhaps balanced so it can track Competitivly with other races? Or do you want Amarr to be 3rd class? Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Marn Prestoc Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.30 13:46:00 - [1170] Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 30/12/2007 13:46:27 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 30/12/2007 13:32:05 Originally by: Marn Prestoc Heres where you again show your lack of knowledge, check out the stat on weapons called SIGNATURE. Nothing tracks as bad as XL weapons, so stop saying it. Except you missed out the part where if you cannot track, you do 0 dps. Even XL weapons can do DPS due to the way sig works, but if you cannot track, then no amount of luck is going to make you do damage. You say nothing tracks as bad as XL weapons. I have clearly shown that Megapulse + Conflag tracks even worse than non-Amarr Capital Sized close range turrets. Surely your should be saying that megapulse + conflag needs to be reworked, perhaps balanced so it can track Competitivly with other races? Or do you want Amarr to be 3rd class? You really do just fail with every post you make... you showed sweet FA, just cos you say its true doesn't make it so. hit chance = (1/2 ^ (tracking factor + range factor)) tracking factor = ((transversal / (range * turret tracking)) * (turret sig res / sig rad)) ^ 2 range factor = ((If range >optimal range then range - optimal range else use 0) / falloff) ^ 2 Look at the tracking factor, Signature is a modifier of tracking! The combined number is then modified, hence tracking means nothing without the signature of your gun and the signature of the target, so your clearly wrong. If target isn't moving than tracking and signature don't matter, as soon as they are moving BOTH factors matter. Keep up the looking clueless i'm enjoying it. Why are your trolling btw? to get the topic locked or to try and stop anyone who has anything nice to say about amarr to go away by ignoring there points about the good sides of amarr/laser and arguing points they never made? p.s. You going to reply to the 4 points I made or keep ignoring them? -

Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.30 14:31:00 - [1171] Edited by: Aranbaal on 30/12/2007 14:31:39 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 30/12/2007 10:55:17 Originally by: General StarScream And dont forget about the 1 sec reload to other type of crystals. and no ammo drain, this is a huge +. Ecept that crystals take longer to reload than conventional ammo if you have more than 4 turrets due to the year old crystal reload bug that they introduced when they made crystals decayable. Oh and crystals are most expensive ammo and they decay randomly. Amarr BS has to carry around 40mil of ammo, the most expensive ammo around. You also said they have decent tracking? Dude.... Close range Amarr weapons, such as Megapulse + Conflag, have worse tracking than even non-Amarr DREADNAUGHTS close range turrets Amarr are the only race to have worse than dread tracking. Dont you see a problem with that? I see no problem ith that. Amarr have Good dps Good range Bad tracking. al the races have a mix of the 3 nobody is great at them all, in case you have never heard of it its called BALANCE. And as for your so called reloading time problem... What problem .. in 90% of fights you dont have to reload where as other battleships may need to do so 2-3 times giving you 30 second of firing over these other ships .. meaning at the end of the fight your sat at the top of the killmail having done more dmg than everyone else because you didnt have to reload. Before *****ing about something look at its benefits, crystals benefits far out way disadvantage of taking longer to reload, Which i havent found to be the case anyway. i can reload my pulse in much less time than 10 seconds. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proud to fly Amarr Battleships
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.30 14:44:00 - [1172] Edited by: Dillius Archania on 30/12/2007 14:46:40 So all the range in the world, and none of the tracking in the world. Means you're going to be spending more cap per shot than any other race, starting sooner than any other race, with the worst tracking. This range is a highly flaunted advantage of Amarr ships. However, Amarr have no way to dictate range to their own advantage. They do not have the mids nor the capacitor to maintain range in combat (particularly 1v1 or small PvP), and in the age of MWD enemy targets are able to close extremely closely, giving you very little firing time before they are in range and outdamaging you. Also of note, these "range advantages" are usually flaunted when using information from battleship level weapons. For smaller size weapons, this range advantage is much less useful. Furthermore, to maintain a sensible amount of DPS, you have to be changing crystals roughly every 10km as targets approach (battleship assumption). Yes, a 1 second change time. As has been mentioned before, if you have any more than 4 or 5 guns, it will not go smoothly, and you'll end up having to go back to some of the guns and reload them. Yes, other ships, such as Gallente ships, have major cap drains they must deal with as well. MWD'ing into range, as in the Megathron (assuming blasters), does cause huge capacitor drain. But once you're in that tight range, your guns are barely draining, you are dealing high and accurate damage (in this case of a much more appealing damage type for a large majority of enemy ships). Furthermore, if a Megathron begins to have capacitor issues, it can simply start slowboating without MWD. Yes, this is impractical in a large gang situation with quickly switching primaries, but it still is an option available. Furthermore, if you know what the next primary will be, you can simply slowboat towards it while current primary is handled, and likely end up within range, ready to go once it is switched. What are Amarr ships supposed to do if they begin to have capacitor issues in combat? Stop shooting? Wow, that range advantage surely doesn't matter if you have to turn off guns to maintain capacitor to maneuver and fire. (However, I would like to see some capacitor use comparisons from people much better at the numbers than myself. Let's say, the cap drain for a Megathron closing from an Amarrian BS's max range compared to the cap drain of an Amarrian ship firing starting at that range) There is a laser problem, that is brutally obvious. Ships completely ignoring one of their two bonuses because it's not worth using 50% cap reduced lasers over capless projectile weapons. (Punisher, Maller, Prophecy). For those who seems to not know, T2 crystals decay. There are a number of individual ship problems. The Omen is a pathetic gank cruiser compared to other races Gank cruisers. The Maller is nearly useless unless set up to tank and given autocannons. The Prophecy suffers this same issues(but lets face it, the only tier 1 BC that's still got a use really is the Brutix). The Zealot is a pathetic HAC, as shown in a recent thread in Ships and Modules (primarily arguing Zealot versus Vagabond). The Apocalypse is generally agreed to be the worst battleship in the game, a ship completely without a role next to the Armageddon and Abaddon. Blah blah fitting requirements, that one has been beaten into the ground. Someone go try to give your Armageddon 7 Tachyons. EDIT: Dear god catching up on my reading what has happened to this thread, gone from a beautiful reasonable discussion to a troll battle.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.30 14:55:00 - [1173] Originally by: Aranbaal Edited by: Aranbaal on 30/12/2007 14:31:39 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 30/12/2007 10:55:17 Originally by: General StarScream And dont forget about the 1 sec reload to other type of crystals. and no ammo drain, this is a huge +. Ecept that crystals take longer to reload than conventional ammo if you have more than 4 turrets due to the year old crystal reload bug that they introduced when they made crystals decayable. Oh and crystals are most expensive ammo and they decay randomly. Amarr BS has to carry around 40mil of ammo, the most expensive ammo around. You also said they have decent tracking? Dude.... Close range Amarr weapons, such as Megapulse + Conflag, have worse tracking than even non-Amarr DREADNAUGHTS close range turrets Amarr are the only race to have worse than dread tracking. Dont you see a problem with that? I see no problem ith that. Amarr have Good dps Good range Bad tracking. al the races have a mix of the 3 nobody is great at them all, in case you have never heard of it its called BALANCE. And as for your so called reloading time problem... What problem .. in 90% of fights you dont have to reload where as other battleships may need to do so 2-3 times giving you 30 second of firing over these other ships .. meaning at the end of the fight your sat at the top of the killmail having done more dmg than everyone else because you didnt have to reload. Before *****ing about something look at its benefits, crystals benefits far out way disadvantage of taking longer to reload, Which i havent found to be the case anyway. i can reload my pulse in much less time than 10 seconds. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proud to fly Amarr Battleships I am amazed at all the minmatar people saying how good Amarr is once they relise that Amarr deserve a boost. in fact, I remember quite a post posts earlier in this very thread saying "OMG - Amarr have Awesome Tacking". Then I prove that they have worse than Dread Tracking and now its the old "OMG CRYSTAL CHANGE IN 1 SECONDZ" Argument. No they dont. Amarr have Worst Long range. And for close range - tracking is everthing - if you cannot track your opponent, you do 0dps. End Of Story. Lets say you are sitting on a gate, a hac jumps in, and keeps you scramblend and orbits you at 15km. You cannot dictate range, you cannot shoot back because you do 0dps as you cannot track him. But a mega can. A Arty Minmatar Ship can. A Candari Ship can. Keep up the fail brigade - it is obvious you faking your pro-amarr stance, since not a single amarr pilot who does pvp actually thinks that crystals load in 1 second. Thats proof enough that you aint no amarr regualr. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.30 15:16:00 - [1174] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Lets say you are sitting on a gate, a hac jumps in, and keeps you scramblend and orbits you at 15km. You cannot dictate range, you cannot shoot back because you do 0dps as you cannot track him. But a mega can. A Arty Minmatar Ship can. A Candari Ship can. Keep up the fail brigade - it is obvious you faking your pro-amarr stance, since not a single amarr pilot who does pvp actually thinks that crystals load in 1 second. Thats proof enough that you aint no amarr regualr. So a hac which are designed to orbit you fast so larger ships cant hit you is hard to hit with a bs ... wow shocking news. I flew mimmi ships for a long tima adn have near maxed out gunnery shills and i cant hit an orbiting hac ith ac's never mined Arties. You have to use tricks to stop them orbiting which can easily be done when on a gate. Once you've stopped them you web am and boom bye bye hac. If you dont know how to deal with little ships then thats your problem not your ships. I fly nothing but an abaddon these days and am always near the top of killmails in normal fights. I guess that must mean everyone else has bad fits and not that the ship actually works then eh. Go back look at your ships look what hey are bloody good at doin and you will see as with every other race they have a job they do well and a job they dont. No race is all powerful. If you cant get ur amarr to work just stop flying them and leave them to the many that can.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.12.30 15:19:00 - [1175] Marn Prestoc, can you do a similar comparison with those ships that are considered weak? Apoc, Prophecy, Maller. Please include the Omen and Zealot as well.
hired goon Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.12.30 15:23:00 - [1176] I don't think anyone can really use the 'crystals change in 1 second' argument until CCP introduce a more user-friendly, non-laggy way of changing a rack of 8 guns. -omg-
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.30 15:27:00 - [1177] Originally by: Aranbaal Originally by: Jonny JoJo Lets say you are sitting on a gate, a hac jumps in, and keeps you scramblend and orbits you at 15km. You cannot dictate range, you cannot shoot back because you do 0dps as you cannot track him. But a mega can. A Arty Minmatar Ship can. A Candari Ship can. Keep up the fail brigade - it is obvious you faking your pro-amarr stance, since not a single amarr pilot who does pvp actually thinks that crystals load in 1 second. Thats proof enough that you aint no amarr regualr. So a hac which are designed to orbit you fast so larger ships cant hit you is hard to hit with a bs ... wow shocking news. This is FAR less of a issue if you fly Gallente, Minmatar or Caldari. It effects Amarr as they have almost half Gallente Tracking Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.30 15:32:00 - [1178] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 30/12/2007 15:34:09 Originally by: Marn Prestoc p.s. You going to reply to the 4 points I made or keep ignoring them? My Points are that Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs Worst Tracking - We both agree on this. Worst range for long range fights - Try to get 160km Optimal on a sniper Amarr vs any other race. You need 3 tracking mods! Worst Real Damage output vs Real world PvP Ships - Go on, tell me the DPS Amarr do in a fully fitted and hence, handicaped setup? Remember Amarr cannot fit half or sustain for more than a few mins most of the theoretical fitouts that people base stats upon. Use most cap - They use 8 heavy nos II worth of cap firing tach. You denying this? Worst Fitting req - You saying Amarr are as easy to fit as gallente or caldari? It is you ignoring what I am saying Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.30 15:35:00 - [1179] Originally by: General StarScream The tracking is ok, to hit targets, Amarr is great in Gangs for heavy hitting tackeld targets. So, you suggest, that amarrs designed to kill only big, slow moving targets? A shame, that 90% pvp ships have mwd. Originally by: General StarScream they are not uber solo race, but do well enuff vs other bs. Amarrs are not only their BS. As many ppls said - BS is where amarrs are relativly balanced. Originally by: General StarScream most fights in eve are gang related, so the amarr shine. its just people whom use the base stats to say they suck. No - most fights in eve are solo/small gang fights. Amarr BS are good in large fleet battles (at least if they are primary), but in small gang\solo pvp allmost useless due tracking\cap issue\worst speed. Originally by: General StarScream I for one dont want every singel ship in eve to be the same. i dont whant it either, so i dont whant simple tracking\cap usage fix - i (and many, many, many amarr players) whant rebalance. Originally by: General StarScream you cant have uber dps at all ranges+ tracking+ all dam types. + tank+ drones, and uber cap at the same time. with the best res in game. Allso true. You see general point - but what you dont see, that only 17% (13% with more than 1kk sp and 4% bestower alts) players in eve are amarrs and amarr ships have overall 4rth place in eve. Some prove for my words: races statistic and ships statistics Originally by: General StarScream each ship in eve should be uniq for special roles, so they fit well in a gang. Idealy. But face it, with exeption of large fleet battles amarrs have no role. And do you realize how difficult to play for race that is average or useless 90% of game time? Why do you think many ppls say: amarr = eve on hard? Originally by: General StarScream but its eve, and i think the problem, is that people think that there race is the weekest, i feel the same about gallente, i wish i had gone amarr,caldri or min, for meny resons, but im sure i would feel it the other way around if i had skilled in any of the other races. But too many players cross-trained from amarr to something else. They do it without reason? How many amarr players have pure amarr build? Originally by: General StarScream And dont forget about the 1 sec reload to other type of crystals. and no ammo drain, this is a huge +. Again, you right on paper. Devs designed lasers to be instant reloaded weapons without need of ammo - that was in 2005. But you dont know that there is weapon reload bug - to reload 4-8 turrets with t2\faction\splitted t1 ammo (and it splits everytime) you need much more time (30s-1min). And faction\t2 lenses have about 4000 charghes - in the end they simply dissapear (yes - lenses are not eternal). Imagine that you need 8x2(maybe 3 complects)x4000=64000 chardges of void L (36-50kk)for every pvp.
Marn Prestoc Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.30 15:42:00 - [1180] Originally by: Traeon Marn Prestoc, can you do a similar comparison with those ships that are considered weak? Apoc, Prophecy, Maller. Please include the Omen and Zealot as well. Not sure why you put the laughing smiley, i've openly agreed that Omen, Maller, Prophecy and Apoc need to be improved. I just don't agree the whole race should be redesigned into sansha style or racial boosts like exp crystals or increase to every ship like some people want, as you don't just help the bad ships, you change/boost the good ships that people here are trying to prove don't work. Geddon/Abaddon are proof the racial design does work, Maller/Omen are failed implementations of the design, does that make the design bad? -

Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.30 16:01:00 - [1181] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 30/12/2007 16:03:16 Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 30/12/2007 16:02:03 Originally by: Marn Prestoc Quote: Worst range for long range fights - Try to get 160km Optimal on a sniper Amarr vs any other race. You need 3 tracking mods! Wheres your reply to my point of best range for close range fights? When CCP change gate jump in distance to 40km, then that argument makes sense. As it stands, 99% of pvp is at 0-10km range for close range, and at 100km+ for long range. Tacklers will probebly keep you scrambled at upto scrambler range, however amarr tracking is so poor, that they can not take out a tackler unless the tackler does not shoot the amarr pilots drones. In Close range pvp, tracking matters and Amarr have worst tracking. Having best close range is a flawed argument since pvp does not happen at those ranges. Having best range in real world close range pvp is like having best tracking at 249km. It is a useless facility. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.12.30 16:10:00 - [1182] Quote: Damage output is fine, the only change I would say is reduce the weighting of EM compared to therm in the longer range ammo's such as Scorch (but keeping EM as primary damage type). Cap is a seperate issue completely, and a seperate one between pulse and beams and between each class of ship. Your trying to paint the same picture for everything. So we both agree that there is a problem with EM resistance? As for Cap, how can you take it out of any serious comparison? Since I mentioned the Maller, Porph Apoc earlier, both cap and damage type are the reasons why people fit projectiles on these ships.
Marn Prestoc Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.30 16:44:00 - [1183] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 30/12/2007 16:03:16 Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 30/12/2007 16:02:03 Originally by: Marn Prestoc Quote: Worst range for long range fights - Try to get 160km Optimal on a sniper Amarr vs any other race. You need 3 tracking mods! Wheres your reply to my point of best range for close range fights? When CCP change gate jump in distance to 40km, then that argument makes sense. As it stands, 99% of pvp is at 0-10km range for close range, and at 100km+ for long range. Tacklers will probebly keep you scrambled at upto scrambler range, however amarr tracking is so poor, that they can not take out a tackler unless the tackler does not shoot the amarr pilots drones. In Close range pvp, tracking matters and Amarr have worst tracking. Having best close range is a flawed argument since pvp does not happen at those ranges. Having best range in real world close range pvp is like having best tracking at 249km. It is a useless facility. But according to you close range pvp is <10km. Targets under 10km are usually webbed, hence transversal is reduced by 90%, hence the differences between each races tracking is minimal except with the tracking bonus. Can't have it both ways. Pvp is not just <10km or >100km, sorry but eve isn't that simple. Originally by: Traeon Quote: Damage output is fine, the only change I would say is reduce the weighting of EM compared to therm in the longer range ammo's such as Scorch (but keeping EM as primary damage type). Cap is a seperate issue completely, and a seperate one between pulse and beams and between each class of ship. Your trying to paint the same picture for everything. So we both agree that there is a problem with EM resistance? As for Cap, how can you take it out of any serious comparison? Since I mentioned the Maller, Porph Apoc earlier, both cap and damage type are the reasons why people fit projectiles on these ships. Not got a problem with EM. Against shields its great, against structure its as good as anything else, against armour tanks that are using tri-hardeners it great, only vs DC+multiple EANM is it weak. My issue is how scorch gets a heavy weighting of EM where Null has a nearly even balance of therm/kin and barrage gets a nearly even balance of exp/kin, its inconsistant to have it as such a heavy weighting. -
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.30 17:49:00 - [1184] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Having best close range is a flawed argument since pvp does not happen at those ranges. Pvp doesnt happen in close range. WTF......... Just because all you probably do is 0.0 fleet battles doent mean thats all there is. Almost every single combat i have ever been in happens between 0-20km, low sec warfare is almost always at those ranges. 0.0 fleet warfare is completely different to real low sec pvp where its all up close and personal. At these ranges you targets are webbed so tracking means little and amarr ships come into a legue of there own due to top class tanks while doin good dmg, which is highly bosted by the fact you arent reloading your guns multiple times in the fight so you are always doin near enough top dmg. So you do mainly em dmg which is bad against armor tankers that is couner by being good against shield tankers and by no reload times. So in real combat you damage is greater than other races. If your only looking at the negatives and not the positives then eery race is broken cause they all have negatives.
SkyCrane	Posted - 2007.12.30 17:51:00 - [1185] Originally by: Marn Prestoc . But according to you close range pvp is <10km. Targets under 10km are usually webbed, hence transversal is reduced by 90%, hence the differences between each races tracking is minimal except with the tracking bonus. Can't have it both ways. Pvp is not just <10km or >100km, sorry but eve isn't that simple. Once again I have to point out that I have very limited PvP experience, but what I've got is either up close and personal, or sniping. So I have yet to see a fight which runs at 50k which so many of you claim you've been a part of. And the webber... Amarr happens to have the coolest slotlayout of all the races with a max of 4 mids (except Pilgrim and Curse iirc) and since we need a metric shedload of cap just to shoot we need to have at least a coupple caprechargers, or boosters. And on top of that we 'waste' midslots on trackingcomputers. Only ship I can think of in 'writing moment' is the Sacrilege which has an abundance of cap due to it's fix (yes, I'm one of the few who likes the Khanid changes. "Fit webberdrones!!" They get killed within seconds... ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2007.12.30 22:25:00 - [1186] Originally by: Marn Prestoc Originally by: Jonny JoJo ... But according to you close range pvp is <10km. Targets under 10km are usually webbed, hence transversal is reduced by 90%, hence the differences between each races tracking is minimal except with the tracking bonus. Can't have it both ways. About 80% posts in this topic is about abaddon (geddeon) vs mega. I dont understand. This thread is not about 1 bs vs 1 bs pvp. Why all you try to prove each other that Mega beats abaddon or abaddon beats mega etc. Maybe it will be fair to compare this 2 bs in all game situations (including mission running and hunting)? And only then say "amarr isnt that bad". Originally by: Marn Prestoc Pvp is not just <10km or >100km, sorry but eve isn't that simple. Pvp is not just BS vs BS, sorry but eve isn't that simple. What about BS vs HAC (so tracking is useless?), close BS vs Sniper (So amarrs dont need mwd at all?), 30 min -1 hour fights (Yes - it actually happens. So cap usage isnt a problem in pvp?) etc.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.30 23:09:00 - [1187] Originally by: Marn Prestoc Geddon/Abaddon are proof the racial design does work, Maller/Omen are failed implementations of the design, does that make the design bad? Kinda, the Geddon/Abaddon are proof that the ganking racial design does work. But not so much that the tanking racial design works, of which they are no really strong examples. That is why i like the Sansha design, not because the gankers wont work, but because its so hard to make the tanks up to snuff. That or something else entirely needs to be done with them.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.30 23:17:00 - [1188] As someone who actually flys Amarr in pvp, as well as other races, I would hope my comments get taken with a pinch of seriousness. Now before someone says that I dont know about pvp, I strongly reccomend that you check out my stats first. I fly all types of ships from small to capital, though I almost never fly frig sized ships, and I will avoid talking about the isuues with Amarr frigs/cepters etc. There is real problems with Amarr. JoJo is quite correct in many ways, however you dont need a sledgehammer to ***** a wallnut. Amarr does have the worst tracking, and this should be made equal with Gallente or Minmatar. You can make tracking a non issue by webbing a target to 1m/s, however that is transfering the issue - not solving it. Amarr do have a tracking issue. Though in small gangs, it is not that noticeable if you have lots of webbers. This does not mean that bad tracking is ok, since if CCP were to nerf Gallente Tracking and to say "use webbers", I doubt anyone would be impressed. Next, CAP. Amarr do need some form of reasonable cap useage. When doing DPS calculations, I would suggest to do a DPS calculation over a 10 minute period, as quite often battles take that long. In 9-9 Capfleet battle, I spent 2 hours with a abaddon, sustaining a single laser for almost all of it. Granted, some smartass will say that I should have used an apoc with a pile of cap rechargers, but you cannot plan for hindsight. I am well aware Minmatar got a 100% cap reduction bonus added to their weapons a while ago when they fixed Minmatar, but I think that Amarr cap should be at least half what it is currently. Ammo is extreamly expensive per shot. Of course, cost is a non-issue to people me, who self fund virtually everthing, but I do understand that people dont like to carry 30mil+ ammo around in cargo due to the nature of carrying spares as crystals decay. Also, reloading them is rather bugged, though hitting CTRL-R helps, it really does mean that Amarr does not have instant reload as some non-amarr players perceive. I could go on about the rather unfair fitting req of tach etc etc, but one thing that a few people have mentioned a few pages ago was a Nightmare being a well designed laser ship. Well, I pvp in Nightmares, so I can safely say that that is perfectly true. This is because of fitting mods not being needed, thus giving more real low slots, but also it has a good pvp slot layout, which makes it flexible and versitile. I guess the tracking bonus on Nightmare helps as well. Either way, when I fly in a nightmare, I feel like what an Amarr ship should be like. Mind you, I also fly in fruity DG fitted rokhs, so what a individual like me finds good, may not be economical or relevant to the great unwashed masses. Mid range combat is very very rare in eve, and it is on this that Amarr could find a use. But that would involve many changes, such as super long range webs, and longer range scrams, so it would have knock on effects for other races that are basically built for combat from the distance from uncloak to gate. Anyhow, point is that Amarr have a lot of issues that need to be fixed, and rather than putting a bandage ona broken leg, CCP should really redesign Amarr in a simaler way to when they redesigned minmatar to make them competitive. -- Billion Isk Mission
Marn Prestoc Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.31 01:20:00 - [1189] Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 31/12/2007 01:21:29 Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: Marn Prestoc Originally by: Jonny JoJo ... But according to you close range pvp is <10km. Targets under 10km are usually webbed, hence transversal is reduced by 90%, hence the differences between each races tracking is minimal except with the tracking bonus. Can't have it both ways. About 80% posts in this topic is about abaddon (geddeon) vs mega. I dont understand. This thread is not about 1 bs vs 1 bs pvp. Why all you try to prove each other that Mega beats abaddon or abaddon beats mega etc. Maybe it will be fair to compare this 2 bs in all game situations (including mission running and hunting)? And only then say "amarr isnt that bad". Originally by: Marn Prestoc Pvp is not just <10km or >100km, sorry but eve isn't that simple. Pvp is not just BS vs BS, sorry but eve isn't that simple. What about BS vs HAC (so tracking is useless?), close BS vs Sniper (So amarrs dont need mwd at all?), 30 min -1 hour fights (Yes - it actually happens. So cap usage isnt a problem in pvp?) etc. Not sure why you directed that at me but nevermind. Ok so maybe the OP is a long time ago but it uses BS for most of its analysis. And its mostly the "a amarr ship can't beat a megathron!" crowd bringing up that comparison. Its also the arguement against racial boosts that people are suggesting rather than hull by hull changes. Second part is exactly my point. The person I was replying to was trying to say all pvp that matters is sub 10km, web range while at the same time saying "laser tracking sucks" which when in web range is a tiny difference between none tracking bonused weapons. Originally by: Lord WarATron Amarr does have the worst tracking, and this should be made equal with Gallente or Minmatar. You can make tracking a non issue by webbing a target to 1m/s, however that is transfering the issue - not solving it. Amarr do have a tracking issue. Though in small gangs, it is not that noticeable if you have lots of webbers. This does not mean that bad tracking is ok, since if CCP were to nerf Gallente Tracking and to say "use webbers", I doubt anyone would be impressed. Mid range combat is very very rare in eve, and it is on this that Amarr could find a use. But that would involve many changes, such as super long range webs, and longer range scrams, so it would have knock on effects for other races that are basically built for combat from the distance from uncloak to gate. Not questioning your experience, I just hate generalised comments like "amarr this" and "lasers that" when pulse and beams are completely different and often different between the crap ships and good ships. Whats your reasoning for the tracking boost? ACs are only about 30% better tracking than pulse. When you consider AC's lose damage from a fraction of the range of lasers isn't that fair? Or is the cap use of pulse only fair with equal tracking, more range and more raw damage than AC's? Just to be clear my point about webbing, it was due to him saying "all close range combat is <10km" (which I think is bull) while also saying having worst close range tracking matters when in his world all close range fights are sub 10km hence webbed so differences between weapon systems tracking is minimal without a bonus. I'm asking for a reason to your suggestion to tracking as I could easily say same thing about Artillery as its been said many times in this thread that beams great tracking is not much of a bonus in most sniping situations, yet there tracking can be 75% better than arty with no ship bonuses to tracking. I just hate suggestions like how you have suggested to boost tracking as it just hints at the "lets make everything the same so its balanced" path. -
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.31 02:03:00 - [1190] Originally by: Lord WarATron Amarr does have the worst tracking, and this should be made equal with Gallente or Minmatar. No, NO, no, NO, NO, NO! Highest optimal range, worst tracking. Amarr should have the worst tracking, heck, even the recent pulse tracking booust might have been to much. If there is any change to tracking that ought to be implemented, it would be to increase artillery tracking and reduce rail tracking. But it is unlikely that that is needed due to the other advantages of arties.

Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.31 04:50:00 - [1191] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Lord WarATron Amarr does have the worst tracking, and this should be made equal with Gallente or Minmatar. No, NO, no, NO, NO, NO! Highest optimal range, worst tracking. Amarr should have the worst tracking, heck, even the recent pulse tracking booust might have been to much. If there is any change to tracking that ought to be implemented, it would be to increase artillery tracking and reduce rail tracking. But it is unlikely that that is needed due to the other advantages of arties. Understandable, so is anything really needed in this area? Should CCP be looking into making the optimal bonus more useful, or should this aspect simply be ignored in favor of addressing others? Currently it seems like the optimal range bonus does little to no good in small encounters.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.31 09:02:00 - [1192] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 31/12/2007 09:05:22 Originally by: Marn Prestoc I'm asking for a reason to your suggestion to tracking as I could easily say same thing about Artillery as its been said many times in this thread that beams great tracking is not much of a bonus in most sniping situations, yet there tracking can be 75% better than arty with no ship bonuses to tracking. I just hate suggestions like how you have suggested to boost tracking as it just hints at the "lets make everything the same so its balanced" path. Please replace the word equal with Competitive, which was what I was meaning to write. Of course, blasters should have a slight edge over conventional turrets, and this is already mostly acheived via ship tracking bonus. However Amarr tracking issues have been well documented in this thread aready, and I do not think there is anything left to for anyone to say that has not already been said so far. Having multiple webs makes tracking a non issue, though like I said, its not the solution, its transfering the problem. Tracking is perhaps the smallest of all Amarr issues currently, and I was answering the point made in the previous half a dozen pages. Amarr issue with pulse/beams as a generalisation is perfectly valid, as ships that work well tend to be an exception to the rule rather than the majority. For example, Tach's work fine on Nightmares, but not as effectivly on other ships. Pulse's works well on Absolution, but not that good on other ships (the old Sacriledge was an example of a badly made pulse ship). I tend to forgo any DPS calculation that are baised on dps over a 1 volley period, as as such, I usually ignore any DPS calculation unless it is over a ten minute period, simple because I find my average combat time is around that long. Anything smaller is usually a quick gank, where DPS, tracking etc etc dont matter much at all. I am not going to nit pick what has been written over the past 40 pages, and I have no intention to join the brigade and spam 50 posts to tell people what I already know to be true from my experence of lasers. -- Billion Isk Mission
Felysta Sandorn System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.31 17:28:00 - [1193] It's something this thread keeps coming back to... Amarr need a boost in order to be COMPETITIVE, not to make them better... They need major attention just to compete with other races, so sort it the **** out! Latest Video, Click Here!
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.31 17:58:00 - [1194] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn It's something this thread keeps coming back to... Amarr need a boost in order to be COMPETITIVE, not to make them better... They need major attention just to compete with other races, so sort it the **** out! To be competitive, even a few game mechanic changes would make Amarr more competitive. Simple things like Increasing gate jumpin distance from 15km to 30km, Longer range web/scram etc etc would all work quite well for Amarr, and allow them to use their Mid range combat. However, that in turn would make ships that are basically built for current gate uncloak distance obsolete, as well as obsolete pvp nanoships, which I guess is not that bad a thing But that would then result in various cries of imbalance, and change the current culture of pvp. This could be a good thing or a bad thing, and this is not somthing to discuss here though, so I think that a Dev needs to reply with what his long term plans are for Amarr, via dev blog, so current players can plan their training accordingly, as it really is not good manners not communicating to your customers. -- Billion Isk Mission
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2007.12.31 19:46:00 - [1195] Lasers: Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs - - - - - - - - - - - - - That's so true. They suck. Amarr = Still very broken! ------------------------------------------ Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.01 01:23:00 - [1196] With the more or less confirmation of an upcoming speed nerf, I wonder if there's an opportunity for both that to occur and an Amarr buff at the same time. Mostly, the aforementioned extended webs. A number of suggestions have been going around discussing weaker webs with longer ranges. How does everyone think this could affect Amarr? Mainly giving greater time to exploit the Optimal Range advantage lasers have?
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.01.01 01:59:00 - [1197] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 01/01/2008 02:01:15 Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 01/01/2008 01:59:49 Originally by: Dillius Archania With the more or less confirmation of an upcoming speed nerf, I wonder if there's an opportunity for both that to occur and an Amarr buff at the same time. Mostly, the aforementioned extended webs. A number of suggestions have been going around discussing weaker webs with longer ranges. How does everyone think this could affect Amarr? Mainly giving greater time to exploit the Optimal Range advantage lasers have? All I know is that Amarr currently feel like Trying to ask for help with having the knife stuck in , shouting for help but even the people in charge could not care less. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.01 03:54:00 - [1198] Originally by: MONEY MIKE People need to realize that the energy weapon rigs are there to help balance the amarr cap problems. the are the ever popular cap rigs as well as the rig that makes energy weapons use 15% less cap. Face it guys using regular or named mods will not even out the weapon/cap problem. Use your heads and use rig slots to your advantage. They work perfectly for me OK, epic fail. I cant even be arsed to explain why.... ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Thalion Withinu	Posted - 2008.01.01 03:57:00 - [1199] The Biggest Amarr Problem is all the cry babies that play Amarr
Ace Shepherd Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.01.01 04:12:00 - [1200] Originally by: Lord WarATron so I think that a Dev needs to reply with what his long term plans are for Amarr, via dev blog, so current players can plan their training accordingly, as it really is not good manners not communicating to your customers. /Signed As it stands I'd like to see; 1. Cyrstal reload bug fixed 2. Laser cap consupmtion reduced to compensate for the changed armour comp/ skills and extra HP on tanks that came out awhile back. 3. Apoc and Zealot fixed, and t1 cruiser on par with the thorax and rupture. 4. Small, mid, and large beams fittings lowered a little. 5. Long range crystal damage revised to reduce a little EM and add that amount to the thermal. I don't think pulses are all that bad on large energy turrets but mid and small need a little something more. Still, I can't but help liking Amarr even with there problems.

Redback911 Malevolent Intentions DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2008.01.01 04:46:00 - [1201] Edited by: Redback911 on 01/01/2008 04:47:48 Learn to play. Seriously. Abaddon is the best close combat ship in the game. It ganks and tanks, outlasts everything on the field. Kills all. I've soloed 5 vs 1 and won in that thing. I've skilled the other race BSes and they are utter rubbish compared to the Abaddon. No other ship can do what it does. ANd to quote Will SMith's best film: "JOJO!!!!!!" ur an idiot (that bit not from film) Now hush and go play with ur drones and missiles - Amarr aint for you.
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.01 05:01:00 - [1202] Edited by: SkyCrane on 01/01/2008 05:02:24 Originally by: Redback911 Edited by: Redback911 on 01/01/2008 04:47:48 Learn to play. Seriously. Abaddon is the best close combat ship in the game. It ganks and tanks, outlasts everything on the field. Kills all. I've soloed 5 vs 1 and won in that thing. I've skilled the other race BSes and they are utter rubbish compared to the Abaddon. No other ship can do what it does. ANd to quote Will SMith's best film: "JOJO!!!!!!" ur an idiot (that bit not from film) Now hush and go play with ur drones and missiles - Amarr aint for you. Was that before or after you started posting your kills on Damage Inc's killboard? What I'm looking for is poof and what you actually killed. EDIT: Typos.... ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Ira Theos	Posted - 2008.01.01 06:36:00 - [1203] All these technical analyses of Amarr are funny to read now only because I finally fixed the Amarr problem with my toon. After 2 years of futile training of laser skills with over 7 million SP in gunnery/lasers out of over 32 million in SP.... I finally found the answer... I TRAINED CALDARI. So now I don't care what CCP does with crappy Amarr as I don't use them anymore. The difference in combat was like night and day.
Ruciza Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.01 06:39:00 - [1204] Originally by: Goumindong to increase artillery tracking and reduce rail tracking. But it is unlikely that that is needed due to the other advantages of arties. Arty tracking is supposed to be augmented by target painters. Stop lamenting and use tp finally. But anyway, it's a myth that mid range combat doesn't exist. Ships are moving, people jump in on a circle of about 30km diameter, gangs are always spread out, and the larger the fleet the more messy it becomes.
Wind Ictiva Delta Kappa Gamma	Posted - 2008.01.01 06:40:00 - [1205] WOW i havent read thru the 41 posts!!! i admit it. but i got a slight suspicion that the people posting here saying amarr is nerfed fubar are mostly older chars that are amarr specced and used to enjoy being over powered. or younger amarr chars you see, amarr suck at lower levels. but at higher levels they rule. know how to use your chars ffs. (nb im not saying i do, but at least i dont whine about it). ps anyone who says the curse is gimped now is an idiot... actually a moron Originally by: Admiral Love Hmm creating a thread like this is perhaps a little like sitting naked with bleeding balls in a pool of piranhas. I Won't do it again - most of you guys are pretty nasty.
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.01 06:51:00 - [1206] Originally by: Wind Ictiva WOW i havent read thru the 41 posts!!! i admit it. but i got a slight suspicion that the people posting here saying amarr is nerfed fubar are mostly older chars that are amarr specced and used to enjoy being over powered. or younger amarr chars you see, amarr suck at lower levels. but at higher levels they rule. know how to use your chars ffs. (nb im not saying i do, but at least i dont whine about it). ps anyone who says the curse is gimped now is an idiot... actually a moron Might I ask if you fly Amarr? And furthermore what ships and how abouts are your skills in their relevant areas? The Curse is quite fine anyways, it's the Pilgrim that has severe problems now.
Wind Ictiva Delta Kappa Gamma	Posted - 2008.01.01 07:09:00 - [1207] Originally by: Dillius Archania Originally by: Wind Ictiva WOW i havent read thru the 41 posts!!! i admit it. but i got a slight suspicion that the people posting here saying amarr is nerfed fubar are mostly older chars that are amarr specced and used to enjoy being over powered. or younger amarr chars you see, amarr suck at lower levels. but at higher levels they rule. know how to use your chars ffs. (nb im not saying i do, but at least i dont whine about it). ps anyone who says the curse is gimped now is an idiot... actually a moron Might I ask if you fly Amarr? And furthermore what ships and how abouts are your skills in their relevant areas? i dont. my bud does and i envy him. he¦s the top damage dealer in his group. if my caldari specced pilot wasnt so dear to me i¦d trade him in an instance for a lower spec¦ed amarr pilot. ... on one hand, who am i to post in this thread since im not amarr spec¦d. i dont have a clear overview do i? on the other hand who are the amarr to post in this thread? arent they too involved to say anything impartial??? Originally by: Admiral Love Hmm creating a thread like this is perhaps a little like sitting naked with bleeding balls in a pool of piranhas. I Won't do it again - most of you guys are pretty nasty.
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.01 07:23:00 - [1208] Originally by: Wind Ictiva Originally by: Dillius Archania Originally by: Wind Ictiva WOW i havent read thru the 41 posts!!! i admit it. but i got a slight suspicion that the people posting here saying amarr is nerfed fubar are mostly older chars that are amarr specced and used to enjoy being over powered. or younger amarr chars you see, amarr suck at lower levels. but at higher levels they rule. know how to use your chars ffs. (nb im not saying i do, but at least i dont whine about it). ps anyone who says the curse is gimped now is an idiot... actually a moron Might I ask if you fly Amarr? And furthermore what ships and how abouts are your skills in their relevant areas? i dont. my bud does and i envy him. he¦s the top damage dealer in his group. if my caldari specced pilot wasnt so dear to me i¦d trade him in an instance for a lower spec¦ed amarr pilot. ... on one hand, who am i to post in this thread since im not amarr spec¦d. i dont have a clear overview do i? on the other hand who are the amarr to post in this thread? arent they too involved to say anything impartial??? Oh it's perfectly fair for non-amarr fliers to post (in my opinion), it's simply best that it's known one way or another so as to understand where the person is coming from. Is your friend particularly high in SP? I know that I myself qualify in the "younger amarr" category. I just hate the fact that I could have trained another race and be much more useful to my allies by now. (albeit the Minmatar suffer from this problem as well, however the Amarr problem isn't due to split weapon systems and multiple defensive systems, it's due to the general suckiness of their ships and weapons) Furthermore, what ships he/she flies primarily must be taken into account, along with typical situations. That really is one of the greatest problems we have in this thread. Many who post don't look at the overall picture. Amarrian ships are generalized too much, though it is often also the case that people feel we are fine and justify it with only a SINGLE ship as comparison (Such as the Abaddon/Armageddon).
Ash'el Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.01.01 08:28:00 - [1209] Originally by: Wind Ictiva on one hand, who am i to post in this thread since im not amarr spec¦d. i dont have a clear overview do i? Answered your own question really. Originally by: Wind Ictiva on the other hand who are the amarr to post in this thread? arent they too involved to say anything impartial??? Some would be yes, but if Amarr were all fine and dandy then there wouldn't be as much as a cry about Amarr's current state of ability. There are numerous facts and figures to look at that "do" indicate Amarr needs something to bring them up to par with other races. Amarr might not need as much as a boost as some would like to have, but Amarr does need something. Now I can remember a time when Minmatar were just as whiney and crying out for a boost, and rightfully so, they needed it and eventually got it. If CCP listened to people like you who just come in here trying to look tough then Minmatar would still be whining and nothing would get done. Now since you're so knowledgable in Amarr show me why you think Amarr should not get a few fixes other then "you know a friend of a friend who is on a kill mail blah blah rubbish" since you're so clever.
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.01 08:36:00 - [1210] Originally by: Ash'el Some would be yes, but if Amarr were all fine and dandy then there wouldn't be as much as a cry about Amarr's current state of ability. A key point here, if there wasn't a true problem, we wouldn't be here discussing Amarr in a 1200+ post thread. Wouldn't be worth the time.

Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.01 16:10:00 - [1211] I'm going to keep reposting my talking points once every 15 pages or so until either a dev responds or this thread dies. Although there have been some additional points made about tracking and such (incidentally, why not improve the tracking of just Quad Beams, so they can at least have a role as anti-frig weapons?), the central points remain... From where I sit, it seems we can distill 90% of what people are saying down to two or three things, upon which most everyone can agree: 1.) Base Resistances - Base EM resists on Shield/Armor should go from 0%/60% to something more like 15%/45%. EM is still the weakest resistance on shields and the strongest resistance on armor. The ratio is still there, but in one step the Omnitank issue would be addressed. You can keep your EANMs exactly the way they are. 2.) Reduce laser cap use - A lot of numbers have been thrown around and certainly CCP should run them all through their version of Big Blue to get as close as possible to what would be balanced and fair. But it looks like 25-30% is what many feel would be close. It would also open up energy weapons to at least be considered by other races, thus adding to the variety and innovation inherent to EVE gameplay. 3.) Change ship bonuses - After Point 2 is addressed, lose the cap bonuses and replace them with real ship bonuses. Is there anyone left anywhere in EVE that doesn't agree on this one by now? My own bonus assertion: 4.) Nerf MWDs. These modules are the sole reason there IS NO "medium range combat" in EVE. All fights are either at long-range sniper or short-range blaster distances. Scale MWD module attributes according to ship classes and reduce their ubiquity in PvP. MWD has drastically imbalanced EVE. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The Devs have mentioned in the past that any time any one module is being used by everyone in a game that it suggests there's a game imbalance. Well, guess what... UPDATE: With the upcoming speed nerf, perhaps there will be changes that bring a return to mid-range combat. Ideas recently discussed involve longer range webbing modules, allowing Amarr ships the ability to dictate more midrange fights. -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.01.01 16:40:00 - [1212] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 01/01/2008 16:41:56 Originally by: Meridius Dex 1.) Base Resistances - Base EM resists on Shield/Armor should go from 0%/60% to something more like 15%/45%. EM is still the weakest resistance on shields and the strongest resistance on armor. The ratio is still there, but in one step the Omnitank issue would be addressed. You can keep your EANMs exactly the way they are. I agree with the rest of your points, but this one I disagree with. There are two things CCP should do either 1 of them 1. Remove or unnerf the prenerfed Armour Compensation Skills. Either remove them or have them effect active hardners, so that people can go back to active setups. Before Armour Compensation Skills, EANM's were worthless. 2. Rebalance all races resists. Look at NPC's - Angels have highist resist on EM on both shield and armour. Bloods have lowist resist on shield and armour. Point is, differencec NPC's have different racial resists. Player ships do not have much of a racial difference - that are all pretty much at 60-70% EM resist on armour to beguin with, and these skewed resists are also a cause of much issue. Amarr should be strongist EM tankers and dealers, Gallente Stongest Thermal dealers and tankers and so on. Each race has its racial nieche. But it may be too late for eve to do such a radical change Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.01 17:31:00 - [1213] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Angels have highist resist on EM on both shield and armour. All NPC's except Blood Raiders and Sansha have obscene EM resistance afaik. The only other 'faction' lasers do decent damage on are mercs. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Kannteir Amarr The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.01 17:59:00 - [1214] Mwd's would be more fun NPCing if they worked like they do in pvp. Why is it speed tanking works best, but it's out of the question for the amarr!
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.01.01 19:36:00 - [1215] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 01/01/2008 19:36:29 Originally by: Kannteir Mwd's would be more fun NPCing if they worked like they do in pvp. Why is it speed tanking works best, but it's out of the question for the amarr! Speed tanks work best becacuse it breaks the current game mechanics of turret tracking and Missile Damage, which were designed with afterburners and the like in mind. Even in the dual MWD days, you could blow a frig away with a missle, or shoot the double mwder down. Now, Dual MWD got fixed, and is now replaced with Nanos, so your missile does 0.00000000000000001 damage, and your turret tracking makes oyu miss 99.99999999% of your shots. Its basically a new fangled exploit if you ask me. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.01 21:56:00 - [1216] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 01/01/2008 19:36:29 Originally by: Kannteir Mwd's would be more fun NPCing if they worked like they do in pvp. Why is it speed tanking works best, but it's out of the question for the amarr! Speed tanks work best becacuse it breaks the current game mechanics of turret tracking and Missile Damage, which were designed with afterburners and the like in mind. Even in the dual MWD days, you could blow a frig away with a missle, or shoot the double mwder down. Now, Dual MWD got fixed, and is now replaced with Nanos, so your missile does 0.00000000000000001 damage, and your turret tracking makes oyu miss 99.99999999% of your shots. Its basically a new fangled exploit if you ask me. go to features and ideas and either support a current idea or make your own well constructed thread Trashed sig, Shark was here
Iria Ahrens Amarr 101st Space Marine Force Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.01 23:09:00 - [1217] Originally by: Wind Ictiva WOW I suppose that statement explains how you could say something like this: Quote: you see, amarr suck at lower levels. but at higher levels they rule. Levels? A lot of good posts have been made on this thread, but this low level/high level stuff isn't one of them. And to the guy that said cap rechargers are the solution. Modules are not the solution to imbalance, unless everyone needs to use the modules. If Amarr NEED cap rechargers but other races don't, then Amarr are still being shafted however slots they must give up for rechargers. Right now I'm just wondering how much the upcomming speed nerf will make mid-range combat viable. Right now all mid-range combat means, is that short period of time moving between short and long range.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.01.02 00:51:00 - [1218] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 02/01/2008 00:51:09 Taking bets on the next Amarr stealth Nerf. I bet is going to be something that effects speed, so in true Nerf Amarr fasion, it will be something like MWD's half your cap recharge rate, thus making Amarr suck even more. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.02 08:47:00 - [1219] Originally by: Dillius Archania Originally by: Ash'el Some would be yes, but if Amarr were all fine and dandy then there wouldn't be as much as a cry about Amarr's current state of ability. A key point here, if there wasn't a true problem, we wouldn't be here discussing Amarr in a 1200+ post thread. Wouldn't be worth the time. Yeah but what can we even expect from ccp? These are the people that have neglected the fix of broken ships like omen and apoc for how long now? These people have found the time to design new features, new ships and new grafics during a long period of time but have epically failed to sit down and have ONE FRIGGIN MEETING about the amarr problem and then fixing it. CCP EPIC FAIL. Therefore BUMP. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Toxic Fumes	Posted - 2008.01.02 19:19:00 - [1220] Bump

Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.01.02 19:37:00 - [1221] Edited by: Traeon on 02/01/2008 19:38:49 Not the point of this thread but a very easy fix as far as NPC'ing goes: Just give all NPCs the same resists across the board, with one resist being a bit lower than the others. ie. a NPC that had something like 70/60/50/40 gets 58/58/58/46
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.02 21:49:00 - [1222] Originally by: Traeon Edited by: Traeon on 02/01/2008 19:38:49 Not the point of this thread but a very easy fix as far as NPC'ing goes: Just give all NPCs the same resists across the board, with one resist being a bit lower than the others. ie. a NPC that had something like 70/60/50/40 gets 58/58/58/46 They could also do that with player ships.... Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Aram Thracius Amarr Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.01.03 00:40:00 - [1223] in an arbitrator I just tried to TD a prophecy that had 425mm autocannons on and I had to use two disruptors just to stop getting hit, he didn't have any tracking boost devices on tracking disruptors need a boost (and everything else for that matter) I'll be flying blackbirds until then (probably some time next century) Aram Thracius - Eve University
Drykor Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.03 02:12:00 - [1224] Only read first page and not all 42. So this has probably already been said. -You don't HAVE to use tachyon's for sniping. -There is nothing wrong with amarr interceptors. -You CANNOT assume you have infinite cap for tanking. -You also cannot assume 3 damage mods in your dps figures, then use all slots on your tank analysis and still claim having more low slots isn't a benefit. -You can't say actual hitpoints are useless in pvp. And no one cares about pve 'cause it's easy as hell anyway. -Pulse lasers are great 'low' range guns. -There are alot of shield tankers out there on which EM damage does nice things. Now I'm not saying nothing is wrong with Amarr, but people like you that will say every single amarr ship is broken just make it a big joke and people won't listen.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.03 05:05:00 - [1225] Originally by: Drykor Only read first page and not all 42. So this has probably already been said. -You don't HAVE to use tachyon's for sniping. -There is nothing wrong with amarr interceptors. -You CANNOT assume you have infinite cap for tanking. -You also cannot assume 3 damage mods in your dps figures, then use all slots on your tank analysis and still claim having more low slots isn't a benefit. -You can't say actual hitpoints are useless in pvp. And no one cares about pve 'cause it's easy as hell anyway. -Pulse lasers are great 'low' range guns. -There are alot of shield tankers out there on which EM damage does nice things. Now I'm not saying nothing is wrong with Amarr, but people like you that will say every single amarr ship is broken just make it a big joke and people won't listen. Actually every ship is more or less broken. Its people like you that dont fly amarr that have this illusion that only a few ships are broken. Yes not all our turret ships suck, thats because they already were overpowered in design or ccp overpowered them to balance them when putting them in, like abaddon. Lasers are broken. End of story. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Juliux Novi	Posted - 2008.01.03 06:01:00 - [1226] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Dillius Archania Originally by: Ash'el Some would be yes, but if Amarr were all fine and dandy then there wouldn't be as much as a cry about Amarr's current state of ability. A key point here, if there wasn't a true problem, we wouldn't be here discussing Amarr in a 1200+ post thread. Wouldn't be worth the time. Yeah but what can we even expect from ccp? These are the people that have neglected the fix of broken ships like omen and apoc for how long now? These people have found the time to design new features, new ships and new grafics during a long period of time but have epically failed to sit down and have ONE FRIGGIN MEETING about the amarr problem and then fixing it. CCP EPIC FAIL. Therefore BUMP. So very true. You would think with this kind of public outcry some one of status would post something to at least imply they are reading the thread. What the hell is wrong with these people... I'm not sure what is going through their heads, but the impression alot of us are getting is that since so few play amarr, even fewer amounts of said population will leave the game and stop paying them money.
Lithalnas Amarr Headcrabs	Posted - 2008.01.03 06:43:00 - [1227] i kinda fancied this somewhat odd fix to the amarr problem, make all their lasers have a target painting bonus, so the more we hit, the more we hit and the more damage we do. By the time you have your 3rd volley going out you are shooting at something the size of a battleship, by the 8th volley a dreadnought has 100% hit ratio if they stand still. ------------- fixed for greater eve content
Emeline Cabernet Amarr DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.03 08:35:00 - [1228] fix the fitting requirements for beams. fix the cap bonus. its the most ******** bonus ever. drop the cap used to fire a laser by 50% and give the ships some proper bonuses. and do something about the pilgrim. atm its just horrible. now dont go all nuts and fix stuff which doesnt need fixing. like maybe another turret on bestower. WE ARE NOT ASKING FOR A BOOST TO BESTOWER.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.03 10:31:00 - [1229] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 03/01/2008 10:32:17 Originally by: Drykor Only read first page and not all 42. So this has probably already been said. -You don't HAVE to use tachyon's for sniping. -There is nothing wrong with amarr interceptors. -You CANNOT assume you have infinite cap for tanking. -You also cannot assume 3 damage mods in your dps figures, then use all slots on your tank analysis and still claim having more low slots isn't a benefit. -You can't say actual hitpoints are useless in pvp. And no one cares about pve 'cause it's easy as hell anyway. -Pulse lasers are great 'low' range guns. -There are alot of shield tankers out there on which EM damage does nice things. Now I'm not saying nothing is wrong with Amarr, but people like you that will say every single amarr ship is broken just make it a big joke and people won't listen. The problem with Amarr is people like you who think that they are ok when they are broken. 1. You have to use tach with Amarr or you are stuffed. Other races competitive sniping range is 160km+. Amarr needs 3 tracking enhancers to hit 160km Optimal, as they cannot rely on falloff as they have the smallest falloff. If you use megabeams, then even Caldari eagles will out damage you in real world damage terms for snipers. 2. Nothing wrong with cepters other than those that use lasers. And the Rocket cepter does need a little boost, though it is half decent, not perfect mind you. 3. You cannot assume infinite cap for tanking, but we can bloody well expect to sustain more than 1 tach on a abaddon. So why did CCP give all Minmatar 100% Cap reduction on turrets a while back? Minmatar are now the cap race as 100% of their cap can go towards tank. For Amarr, almost 100% of cap goes towards tank. 4. Low slots. Lets see how a 3 Heatsink Abaddon sniper does. Oh dear - it looks like 2-3 RCU's are used, depending on skills. So Abaddon now has 4-5 lows left. Oh dear, mids need at least 1 heavy cap booster + MWD so thats 2 mids and 4-5 lows left. Tach have crap range, so Add in 3 Range mods (for 160km Optimal) and 2 sensor booster II and thats you left with 1-2 lowslots for heatsinks. Looks like FAKESLOTS scenario is here to stay, as EVEN CALDARI have more "REAL" Lowslots. How the heck people even manage to do DPS calculations for a 9-10 low-slot abaddon(because they somehow think that 3 heatsink is possible on a "like for like" with other races) is beyond even me! 5. Pulse lasers have worse tracking for this 'low' range as you call it. For example, Megapulse + Conflag has 30%+ worse tracking than even non-Amarr Dreadnaughts 'low' range weapons. 6. Shield tankers use 2x invul and 1 x em hardner meaning EM is second highist resist. There are very few shield tankers, but thats ok, because Amarr vs Passive tanked drake usually ends up with amarr out of cap before drake dies. lol Amarr laserships are broken, as well as Amarr EW ships. Amarr EW ships are only good at EWing on Amarr themselves which is a joke to be honest. Also the Amarr ships that work, such as Sacriledge, are actually caldari ships, or what we call "Khanid" ships. You are a role player so you should know this. Isent your Alliance a Anti-Amarr Role Playing Alliance? LOL Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.03 11:24:00 - [1230] Edited by: SkyCrane on 03/01/2008 11:36:16 Edited by: SkyCrane on 03/01/2008 11:25:57 Edited by: SkyCrane on 03/01/2008 11:24:50 Originally by: Drykor -You don't HAVE to use tachyon's for sniping. Yes we do, as beams' range are pathetic. We're up to Radio and 4 trackingmods with normal beams. Like Jonny said, the Eagle does more damage at that range. Originally by: Drykor -There is nothing wrong with amarr interceptors. Dunno, don't use them Originally by: Drykor -You CANNOT assume you have infinite cap for tanking. Funny how this comes from a Minmatar player, who can shoot as much as he like no matter how high or low his cap is... Originally by: Drykor -You also cannot assume 3 damage mods in your dps figures, then use all slots on your tank analysis and still claim having more low slots isn't a benefit. See Jonny's reply... Originally by: Drykor -You can't say actual hitpoints are useless in pvp. And no one cares about pve 'cause it's easy as hell anyway. You're wrong, people _do_ care about PVE, as many people actually are missionrunners. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it isn't. When you have to work your way through a 90% EM and 70% thermal resistance on Gurista and Angel ships, and at the same time worry about not running out of cap and armor... Originally by: Drykor -Pulse lasers are great 'low' range guns. Not really. See Jonny's argument Originally by: Drykor -There are alot of shield tankers out there on which EM damage does nice things. Yeah, I see a buttload of Vagabonds and Mnimatar T2 "ships" floating about in space, it makes me feel a little fuzzy knowing that it'll take me about 4 hours to break their tank.. no wait, I'm Amarr.. I don't have 4 hours to spend, as I'll be capdead within 30 minutes. Originally by: Drykor Now I'm not saying nothing is wrong with Amarr, but people like you that will say every single amarr ship is broken just make it a big joke and people won't listen. I'm not either, I'm just growing tired of Minmatar, Gallente and Caldari trashing threads like this claming we think every single Amarr ships are broken on every single detail, because it's funny to be trolls, when they're no better themself. And the worst argument of them all: If you think Amarr ships suck so much, why do you fly them?? It's a roleplaying game.. I chose to roleplay Amarr. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)

Ash'el Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.01.03 13:50:00 - [1231] Originally by: SkyCrane as I'll be capdead within 30 minutes. More like 3 minutes
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.03 18:19:00 - [1232] Bump for obvious reasons. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.03 18:43:00 - [1233] For the purposes of discussion and my own curiosity (as I have no fleet sniping experience), are there any situations really in which Megabeams are practical to use instead of Tachyons?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.03 18:44:00 - [1234] Originally by: Dillius Archania For the purposes of discussion and my own curiosity (as I have no fleet sniping experience), are there any situations really in which Megabeams are practical to use instead of Tachyons? Not really. Maybe pve but not pvp. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.03 19:59:00 - [1235] Edited by: SkyCrane on 03/01/2008 19:59:36 Originally by: Dillius Archania For the purposes of discussion and my own curiosity (as I have no fleet sniping experience), are there any situations really in which Megabeams are practical to use instead of Tachyons? Beams is what I fins most effective in almost all level 4 missions due to it's range and trackingspeed. It's kinda a halfassed mix between pulses and tachy's. Good to bring down most ships untill they get to about 20 km's. Then you're depending on drones. Unless, ofc they're battleships. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Juliux Novi	Posted - 2008.01.03 20:03:00 - [1236] bumping this until we get some sort of official response. MAKE IT SO
Juliux Novi	Posted - 2008.01.03 20:37:00 - [1237] My major concern is perfectly illustrated with this quote from another thread. In said thread, they are debating whether zulupark even plays the game, since he is proposing to nerf interdictors speed. Anyway here is the quote. Originally by: Karlemgne Originally by: Amarria Black Originally by: Virtuozzo 1. It is not up to players to decide how a feature or mechanism is intended, while the game is posed as player driven, it is not player managed. Wrong. A successful MMO, once live, is designed and altered on the micro level through a combination of community and developer input. While the developers have the absolute tyranny of ownership of the code / servers, ignoring the will of the playerbase results in... well, SWG. There has to be give and take. As someone who has worked in the video game industry and on MMOs specifically let me say to you--WRONG. The players input is mildly important, in the sense that a company is probably not going to change the game in a way that makes a lot of people quit the game. You might argue SOE did this to SWG. You'd be wrong though, as they were responding to a mandate from Lucas Arts which basically stated "institute the NGE or we revoke the license and SWG shuts down." Other than that, the job of the devs is to update the game with new content and balance. So, for instance, when I was playing EQ2 SOE nerfed the raiding community by making it impossible to set up a macro that would enable you to un-equip all of your items to avoid the repair costs on epic gear. Everyone in the raiding community complained and hated the idea. SOE realized they needed the gold sink more than they needed the small raiding community to be 100% happy. The same, I am sure, is happening here. CCP thinks that overall balance requires a nerf to dictor speed, and the fact that the small community of 0.0 alliance, and the even SMALLER community of dictor pilots doesn't like this nerf matters very little. -Karl Although this topic is about Interdictors and not "fix amarr", the point made holds very true to my concerns. I fear CCP is ignoring this because of our few numbers. I heard once 12% of eVe is amarr, is this true? I love this game, really really love it. But I am beginning to harbor some real negative feelings to the DEVS and CCP in general, with this lack of attention to our inquiries, and of course the Tech II BPO scandal, in which a DEV was caught spawning Tech II BPO to alliance players (HIS FRIEnds). IMO they lost some credibility with this. Prove us wrong, CCP... if you care. Right now it looks like you do not.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.03 21:31:00 - [1238] A where-is-our-oomph-bump. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Juliux Novi	Posted - 2008.01.03 22:07:00 - [1239] to the top we go
Wind Ictiva Delta Kappa Gamma	Posted - 2008.01.03 23:53:00 - [1240] lets take this one at a time: 1) Originally by: Iria Ahrens Originally by: Wind Ictiva WOW I suppose that statement explains how you could say something like this: Quote: you see, amarr suck at lower levels. but at higher levels they rule. Levels? A lot of good posts have been made on this thread, but this low level/high level stuff isn't one of them. uuuhmm, yes levels. let me explain. and might i add for you WoW players out there, when i say levels, i dont mean WoW levels, i mean EvE levels. as in a 30mil sp char trained in amarr pvp skills is a higher level than a 2.5mil sp char trained in amarr pvp skills im sorry Iria Ahrens, that you¦ve played too much WoW to understand this. 2) Originally by: Ash'el Originally by: Wind Ictiva on one hand, who am i to post in this thread since im not amarr spec¦d. i dont have a clear overview do i? Answered your own question really. since you're so clever. Thank you my friend is a valuable asset to his group as a damage dealer, sorry if you arent good enough 3) ok, im just gonna throw this in here... i know its gonna make an awfull ruckus, but well, im predisposed that way. if you¦re gonna boost amarr, boost gallente first Originally by: Admiral Love Hmm creating a thread like this is perhaps a little like sitting naked with bleeding balls in a pool of piranhas. I Won't do it again - most of you guys are pretty nasty.

Wind Ictiva Delta Kappa Gamma	Posted - 2008.01.04 00:05:00 - [1241] every goddam race needs a boost. why? cause every race gets killed by another race. ccp¦s job is to keep the equalibrium. and i¦ll restate what i said before. i think the majority of the people speaking in here are either: a)new players since amarr only rule at higher levels b)older players who were used to being over powered and miss their good old times my main point: amarr chars are valuable in all gangs if played right. just like all other races. be it in fleet warfare or pirating if you¦re into mining or missioning, you chose the wrong race (i think, maybe, i dunno, what ever) all races have their good points and all races have their bad points live with it. at least try to. thats what im doing at least. goddammit ppl!! Originally by: Admiral Love Hmm creating a thread like this is perhaps a little like sitting naked with bleeding balls in a pool of piranhas. I Won't do it again - most of you guys are pretty nasty.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 00:15:00 - [1242] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/01/2008 00:16:16 Originally by: Wind Ictiva every goddam race needs a boost. why? cause every race gets killed by another race. ccp¦s job is to keep the equalibrium. and i¦ll restate what i said before. i think the majority of the people speaking in here are either: a)new players since amarr only rule at higher levels b)older players who were used to being over powered and miss their good old times my main point: amarr chars are valuable in all gangs if played right. just like all other races. be it in fleet warfare or pirating if you¦re into mining or missioning, you chose the wrong race (i think, maybe, i dunno, what ever) all races have their good points and all races have their bad points live with it. at least try to. thats what im doing at least. goddammit ppl!! You compleatly miss the point. We want Amarr to be competitive - not OMGWTFBBQ Ahem.... Ok First of all - you go into a resteraunt. You love the food, but the Amarr brand of cola is flat. The Minmatar brand of cola used to be flat, but someone told the waiter and now it is fizzy. What you are saying is that if you have a "Nice Meal" A.K.A Gang, then the flat cola is fine. I disagree with this viewpoint that you have What Amarr pilots are saying is that why should we have a crappy flat cola when everyone else has fizzy cola? We have no problems with a mean or other brands of cola - just the Amarr brand is flat and we are doing our job by making our views known so that CCP can fix it. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.04 01:42:00 - [1243] Originally by: Marn Prestoc Whats your reasoning for the tracking boost? ACs are only about 30% better tracking than pulse. When you consider AC's lose damage from a fraction of the range of lasers isn't that fair? Or is the cap use of pulse only fair with equal tracking, more range and more raw damage than AC's? Err? "Only" 30% better? CCP just completely re-wrote how Torpedoes work to give them "only" a 30% increase in damage. 30% is huge, especially when that 30% is the only counter to most small gang ships which rely on speed. You don't even have to go fast to keep from being hit by Amarr.... Next time you make 1 billion can I have "only" 30% of it? PS-Yes, I have an alt that flies only Amarr.... Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.04 02:19:00 - [1244] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/01/2008 00:16:16 Originally by: Wind Ictiva every goddam race needs a boost. why? cause every race gets killed by another race. ccp¦s job is to keep the equalibrium. and i¦ll restate what i said before. i think the majority of the people speaking in here are either: a)new players since amarr only rule at higher levels b)older players who were used to being over powered and miss their good old times my main point: amarr chars are valuable in all gangs if played right. just like all other races. be it in fleet warfare or pirating if you¦re into mining or missioning, you chose the wrong race (i think, maybe, i dunno, what ever) all races have their good points and all races have their bad points live with it. at least try to. thats what im doing at least. goddammit ppl!! You compleatly miss the point. We want Amarr to be competitive - not OMGWTFBBQ Ahem.... Ok First of all - you go into a resteraunt. You love the food, but the Amarr brand of cola is flat. The Minmatar brand of cola used to be flat, but someone told the waiter and now it is fizzy. What you are saying is that if you have a "Nice Meal" A.K.A Gang, then the flat cola is fine. I disagree with this viewpoint that you have What Amarr pilots are saying is that why should we have a crappy flat cola when everyone else has fizzy cola? We have no problems with a mean or other brands of cola - just the Amarr brand is flat and we are doing our job by making our views known so that CCP can fix it. This is exactly what people are doing while bashing down the amarr threads. They are basically saying "well you got a 4star meal now when you used to have a 3star meal, dont complain". The truth is amarr are the only ones eating the 4 star meal while everyone else is eating a 5star meal. A real example is harbinger. Its a good ship, 4 stars for being amarr BUT once you compare to the hurricane its getting shafted in every way. Hurricane is a 5star. meh ccp sucks. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.01.04 02:27:00 - [1245] Originally by: Wind Ictiva every goddam race needs a boost. why? cause every race gets killed by another race. ccp¦s job is to keep the equalibrium. and i¦ll restate what i said before. i think the majority of the people speaking in here are either: a)new players since amarr only rule at higher levels b)older players who were used to being over powered and miss their good old times my main point: amarr chars are valuable in all gangs if played right. just like all other races. be it in fleet warfare or pirating if you¦re into mining or missioning, you chose the wrong race (i think, maybe, i dunno, what ever) all races have their good points and all races have their bad points live with it. at least try to. thats what im doing at least. goddammit ppl!! This is all misleading. Can Amarr ships be ok? Sure. Can some of them even be good? Sure. But assume you have L5 skills in absolutely everything. Sub-cap ship name an Amarr ship you would fly before any other in any situation. I can think of maybe the Damnation but that is only if you want the Armor links. Maybe a Crusader if you want to hunt interceptors (and even then not sure). So, barring two very narrow cases Amarr lose. There is a better ship to be had for anything in EVE. Further, every other race has a unique flavor. Minmatar: Speed and Swiss Army Knife Caldari: Missiles and Ewar Gallente: Drones and knife fighters Amarr: ??? (erm...own the middle ground where no one fights ) Oh yeah, and last but not least where is the freaking missing Amarr frigate already???
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.04 02:47:00 - [1246] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Wind Ictiva every goddam race needs a boost. why? cause every race gets killed by another race. ccp¦s job is to keep the equalibrium. and i¦ll restate what i said before. i think the majority of the people speaking in here are either: a)new players since amarr only rule at higher levels b)older players who were used to being over powered and miss their good old times my main point: amarr chars are valuable in all gangs if played right. just like all other races. be it in fleet warfare or pirating if you¦re into mining or missioning, you chose the wrong race (i think, maybe, i dunno, what ever) all races have their good points and all races have their bad points live with it. at least try to. thats what im doing at least. goddammit ppl!! This is all misleading. Can Amarr ships be ok? Sure. Can some of them even be good? Sure. But assume you have L5 skills in absolutely everything. Sub-cap ship name an Amarr ship you would fly before any other in any situation. I can think of maybe the Damnation but that is only if you want the Armor links. Maybe a Crusader if you want to hunt interceptors (and even then not sure). So, barring two very narrow cases Amarr lose. There is a better ship to be had for anything in EVE. Further, every other race has a unique flavor. Minmatar: Speed and Swiss Army Knife Caldari: Missiles and Ewar Gallente: Drones and knife fighters Amarr: ??? (erm...own the middle ground where no one fights ) Oh yeah, and last but not least where is the freaking missing Amarr frigate already??? Amarr: Nerf bat magnet --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.01.04 03:04:00 - [1247] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Amarr: Nerf bat magnet So obvious I forgot.
Gealbhan Caldari The SAS The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.01.04 03:20:00 - [1248] I love how this topic is 43 pages long and not a single dev reply, hehe. "Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.04 03:27:00 - [1249] Originally by: Gealbhan I love how this topic is 43 pages long and not a single dev reply, hehe. I guess ccp doesnt belive in "Where there is smoke there is fire". Too bad they didnt run into a smoke filled hotel a long time ago with that in mind. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Juliux Novi	Posted - 2008.01.04 03:46:00 - [1250] Originally by: Gealbhan I love how this topic is 43 pages long and not a single dev reply, hehe. Yea, come on I mean what the hell? At the very least this deserves a "thank you for your comments, but nothing will change. We have viewed the blah blah blah and determined working as intended etc"... throw us a frickin' bone here.

Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.04 03:49:00 - [1251] Originally by: Juliux Novi throw us a frickin' bone here. I think ccp's reasoning for that is "They are already boned enough, lets not throw another bone at em". --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.04 03:56:00 - [1252] Originally by: Boomershoot Edited by: Boomershoot on 03/01/2008 20:35:50 Edited by: Boomershoot on 03/01/2008 20:35:22 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Someone should get fired and its not the programmers. the amarr race however, there is no really amarr problem, most of ppl talk like that without even knowning the timeline of amarr nerf. maybe it's just that, amarr got nerfed to balance the game (lol) and they got the "nerfed race" title EDIT: misspelled amarr 3 times, lol EDIT: no, i didn't lol Well, I wasn't even around during the glory days of the gankageddon, all I know is that I spent a long time training Amarr, listening to everyone constantly tell me to train something else or I'd regret it. Now I have actually spent time playing around with other ships (Caldari and Minmatar mainly) and the difference is noticeable.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.04 04:26:00 - [1253] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 04/01/2008 04:26:11 Well its nice that ccp doesnt bother to look in this thread. Might as well link this epic fail. Its in good company with ccp's balancing team. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.04 07:07:00 - [1254] Originally by: Wind Ictiva ok, im just gonna throw this in here... i know its gonna make an awfull ruckus, but well, im predisposed that way. if you¦re gonna boost amarr, boost gallente first Boost amarr, or nerf gallente\caldary first - i think that is correct.
Jorak Falconstar Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.04 07:13:00 - [1255] Ok i'm not a numbers person so i wont try to work anything out but it seems that a large part of the complaint is that Amarr weapons are to easy to tank, right? well how bout if they were changed from Em/Thermal damage mix to a Thermal/Explosive mix (i.e. leave the numbers the same just change the type of damage)?? I know that doenst fix the issues with cap drain etc but doesn't it make a start toward making lasers somewhat more competitive compared to the other turrets.
Ash'el Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.01.04 07:54:00 - [1256] Originally by: Wind Ictiva if you¦re gonna boost amarr, boost gallente first This clearly shows you have no clue wtf you're on about.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.04 08:31:00 - [1257] Originally by: Ash'el Originally by: Wind Ictiva if you¦re gonna boost amarr, boost gallente first This clearly shows you have no clue wtf you're on about. QFT, gallente got what they deserved last patch. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Juliux Novi	Posted - 2008.01.04 09:03:00 - [1258] Originally by: Jorak Falconstar Ok i'm not a numbers person so i wont try to work anything out but it seems that a large part of the complaint is that Amarr weapons are to easy to tank, right? well how bout if they were changed from Em/Thermal damage mix to a Thermal/Explosive mix (i.e. leave the numbers the same just change the type of damage)?? I know that doenst fix the issues with cap drain etc but doesn't it make a start toward making lasers somewhat more competitive compared to the other turrets. I do commend you for offering some positive, constructive advice on how to solve the issue, we need more people like you. But I must warn you, the nerds are going to start complaining that "Lasers are weapons of light and photons, therefore can only do EM or Thermal damage, light cannot do explosive or kinetic damage by the very laws of science", etc etc.
Jorak Falconstar Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.04 09:12:00 - [1259] Originally by: Juliux Novi I do commend you for offering some positive, constructive advice on how to solve the issue, we need more people like you. But I must warn you, the nerds are going to start complaining that "Lasers are weapons of light and photons, therefore can only do EM or Thermal damage, light cannot do explosive or kinetic damage by the very laws of science", etc etc. Exactly.. the thing is if a laser does thermal damage it must be heating something up right? Well what happens when you heat something up very rapidly? does it not ususally explode in some way, therefore lasers doing explosive damage is in fact a plausible secondary damage type for them.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 09:17:00 - [1260] Originally by: Juliux Novi Originally by: Jorak Falconstar Ok i'm not a numbers person so i wont try to work anything out but it seems that a large part of the complaint is that Amarr weapons are to easy to tank, right? well how bout if they were changed from Em/Thermal damage mix to a Thermal/Explosive mix (i.e. leave the numbers the same just change the type of damage)?? I know that doenst fix the issues with cap drain etc but doesn't it make a start toward making lasers somewhat more competitive compared to the other turrets. I do commend you for offering some positive, constructive advice on how to solve the issue, we need more people like you. But I must warn you, the nerds are going to start complaining that "Lasers are weapons of light and photons, therefore can only do EM or Thermal damage, light cannot do explosive or kinetic damage by the very laws of science", etc etc. heh yeah - they are not really nerds, but actually role playing minmatar t2 ship pilots who want high 92.5% em resist on their ships to mean something. The nerds are fully aware that lasers cannot do EM damage. scientifically. But damagetype is only the smallest part of the embodyment that is amarr shaft Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)

Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 09:20:00 - [1261] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/01/2008 09:22:04 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Marn Prestoc Whats your reasoning for the tracking boost? ACs are only about 30% better tracking than pulse. When you consider AC's lose damage from a fraction of the range of lasers isn't that fair? Or is the cap use of pulse only fair with equal tracking, more range and more raw damage than AC's? Err? "Only" 30% better? CCP just completely re-wrote how Torpedoes work to give them "only" a 30% increase in damage. 30% is huge, especially when that 30% is the only counter to most small gang ships which rely on speed. You don't even have to go fast to keep from being hit by Amarr.... Next time you make 1 billion can I have "only" 30% of it? PS-Yes, I have an alt that flies only Amarr.... Eh? What is your point? That expensive ships are allowed better tracking? If I spend 70 billion, which is the market price for a Imperal Apoc, and fit it with megapulse + conflag, it has worse tracking than only 2bil isk fitted non-Amarr dreadnaughts with close range weapons. 30%+ worse So I am trying to understand what exactly your point is? WTF has torps got to do with this, as I think torp change was good for pvp? Oh Wait - Torp buff means that CCP boost caldari, boosts Minmatar (like insted of giving minmatar 10% cap reduction per level, they gave minmatar 100% cap reduction on all guns in the last minmatar fix) Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.01.04 12:26:00 - [1262] I¦m sorry. I am Amarr specced (Lasers and just lasers), I¦ve trained every possible skill possible in Gunnery to V (except Trajectory Analysis, only a few days morem Specs are all in of course) and I don¦t see the "Amarr are awesome once the training is done"... That¦s bull***. 1) Wait, at least we have some nice sniper ships...* Oh, no. Can you hear that? It¦s Trinity! The Sensor Booster "nerf" killed the Amarr snipers more than any other race for sure... 2) Wait, at least our ships have a nice cap... Which is consumed in less than 2 minutes if you fire your guns... 3) Wait, we have -10% cap reduction bonuses on several of our ships... that should help, right? Errr... no. But I must admit it¦s a quite funny that CCP thinks other races ever want to use Lasers on their ships to give us, Amarr, such stupid bonus, thus wasting already 1 of the 2 bonuses on an Amarr ship. 4) But, wait... Amar got an oomph!, right. Oh, yeah. +25% to Pulse tracking! That sure evened the score! 5) The Apocalypse. No more useless ship exist in the game. Aside as a Sniper, which gives you 1 more minute of constant Laser fire. Well, you can fit it witn Neutralizers too, but come on... Where¦s the pewpew on that? 6) Maller/Omen/Zealot/Retribution... From the "-10% cap reduction" stupidity, to the "Someone forgot to add a 5th turret on this trashcan! (Oh, and they too have the ***ty -10% cap "bonus")" to the "Who stole the 2nd mid slot on this aberration?!?" (underpowered, with the -10% cap bonus, and with just 1 mid slot...) 7) I was hoping we would get nice ships with the Trinity patch, but to no avail: Web bonus? Well, at least it will be a range bonus... No?!? A +2% per lvl bonus?!? For what? Multifreqs optimal is 15km! Why I need someone close than that?!?* 8) Tachyon Beam laser II¦s... Ok, dmg wise, they are great, I admit it. They have a huge cap consumption, true. No problem, just 2 or 3 minutes of firing I can tolerate it... But 4125 of powergrid?!? Why on earth does CCP thinks any other race will want to use Lasers on their ships when, even if they tried, they would only be able to fit 2 or 3 turrets?!? (and don¦t tell me "CCP never said they want non-Amarr to use Lasers, because then why the hell the "-10% cap reduction bonus" exists?!?) Khanid Ships... Nice ships, I know. But will force every Amarr player on the game to start training Missiles (I¦m tempted). Eh, no problem for me. Guess at least a few Amarr ships now kinda attract me (Sacrilege, Heretic, Malediction...) But, yes. Sure. Amar are still playable. But whoever says they are ok as they currently are, it¦s a Dev in disguise or something. Said it before, will say it again: The CCP devs are all Minnie RP freedom fighers or something BTW, anyone else noticed this? If you run a pure Amarr setup, you have to train Drones (Arbitrator/Pilgrim/Curse), Gunnery (the old Amarr crap + Abaddon) and Missiles (the new shiny Khanid perfection...) No wonder everyone says that Amarr excel at later stages: the amount of wasted SP outhere is huge!
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.04 13:02:00 - [1263] Originally by: Juliux Novi Originally by: Jorak Falconstar Ok i'm not a numbers person so i wont try to work anything out but it seems that a large part of the complaint is that Amarr weapons are to easy to tank, right? well how bout if they were changed from Em/Thermal damage mix to a Thermal/Explosive mix (i.e. leave the numbers the same just change the type of damage)?? I know that doenst fix the issues with cap drain etc but doesn't it make a start toward making lasers somewhat more competitive compared to the other turrets. I do commend you for offering some positive, constructive advice on how to solve the issue, we need more people like you. But I must warn you, the nerds are going to start complaining that "Lasers are weapons of light and photons, therefore can only do EM or Thermal damage, light cannot do explosive or kinetic damage by the very laws of science", etc etc. If devs created lasers according real world physics then we have something like: 1) no optimal at all - pure and hudge falloff (optimal for light?) 2) no em damage (0.01% em)- pure thremal 3) best range in game 4) perfect tracking (lasers in real world use focusing mirrors - no need for entire device to rotate at all) 5) no turret signature resolution (it is laser after all - not autocanon) 6) heavy energy usage (whell - its exist in game)
General StarScream Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.04 13:29:00 - [1264] Amarr is allready the best race in game to skill for. 1. Coolest looking ships and Avatars. 2. Best storyline. 3. Best Carrier 4. Best Dread. 5. Best Titan. 6. Best Battleship. 7. Second best Recon. 8. Second best Ceptor. 9.Best Dam both in Amount, for range and optimal. + Dam type. 10. best pos take down ships. 11. no ammo reload time, or burn, 1 sec reload to all guns. 12. Best fitting layout in game on all ships. 13. Low cap for guns vs what they do. 14.Best race to fight the best tanks in game (sheild) while having a uber armor tank, with lesser slots, giving room for dam mods in lows. ye you all are right it must suck to be Amarr. try flying gallente, where everyone has 80% to your dam types, and you cant change em. Its the Gallente race that should whine here. heres a run down of the best races NUmber 1 tattaa Amarr. NUmber 2 Tatata Ta ta Caldri. NUmber 3 tatatata Minmatar. NUmber 4 Gallente. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:13:00 - [1265] Originally by: General StarScream Amarr is allready the best race in game...Its the Gallente race that should whine here ...omg... Dont know what to answer... Looks like you absolutley out of your mind. No, realy. - this is most stuppid post in this thread. Even posts like: "amarr are fine, stop whinning" have more usefull information. Allmost all points in your post are wrong (try to prove at least 1\2 of them with oficial facts),exept coolest looking ships and ,maybe, storyline. Delete it before noone saw it
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:16:00 - [1266] Originally by: General StarScream lulz Worst troll ever... NEXT ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
General StarScream Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:26:00 - [1267] You can look up facts you self cant you? pls point out where im wrong. If you do il give you 1 billion isk Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:38:00 - [1268] It's easier to point out where you're not wrong. Best looking ships and avatars, and best capital ships. As previously stated I don't fly interceptors so I won't comment on that. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:38:00 - [1269] Originally by: General StarScream You can look up facts you self cant you? pls point out where im wrong. If you do il give you 1 billion isk ships statistics amarrs have no one ships on the 1 places (exept bestower) - so all yours "best <enter ship class>" is trash. races statistics 1 - caldary 2 - gallente 3 - minmatr 4 - amarr Im waiting for 1 billion isk...
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 14:40:00 - [1270] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/01/2008 14:40:58 Originally by: General StarScream You can look up facts you self cant you? pls point out where im wrong. If you do il give you 1 billion isk Dude, point me something you posted that was correct and I will give you 1 bil isk! You are nothing but a COAD troll who got out trolled by goons and bob and came here because you could not compete with them. People - just ignore Starscream, and StarScram - go back to COAD section of eve forms to troll there. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)

Trind2222 Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.01.04 15:05:00 - [1271] Newest ship Devoter why did they only place 4 turret sloth when the rest have 5? Why do it lack cpu and powergid? This is balancing if it is explain how it is balanced to the other Heavy interdictor's?
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 15:13:00 - [1272] Originally by: Trind2222 Newest ship Devoter why did they only place 4 turret sloth when the rest have 5? Why do it lack cpu and powergid? This is balancing if it is explain how it is balanced to the other Heavy interdictor's? All Heavy interictors are OMG. Except Amarr version, which is crap to be honest. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Dhamon Grimwulf	Posted - 2008.01.04 15:17:00 - [1273] I recently put my amarr specced toon on hold. I dont think ill play her until CCP fixes Amarr( i wont hold my breath). I am playing Caldari now and it is great. Missles are far superior to lasers. I keep getting pleasantly surpried that the only thing I use cap on now is a shield booster when i need it. I still cant believe it. With amarr i ran out of cap fast even with skills, rechargers, and rigs. It was rediculous. So not only can Amarr not fit anything, they dont have cap, they dont have the damage against resistences, and they dont have sustainability. EVERYONE SWITCH TO CALDARI!
General StarScream Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.04 15:18:00 - [1274] races statistics dont mean anything other than what the % of people fly, it dont mean Amarr are the least best race. it just what people pick at the start, and alot of people on the fourm are ******s, claiming Gallente is best for pvp and bla bla bla. but they forget that every race has a role they are better than others at. For EvE controll. this means Big fleets, pos take down. and mind nubing blobs, Amarr is king. they have alot of good ships, you cant base that amarr sucks cuse they got 1 stinky ship class, wich dont do as well as Caldri or other races, ment to be good at that. THis is what you Amarr whine about, you want to have OMG dev hax speed, DPs, tracking, Ship fitting No cap used, while using the best guns in game and doing the best dam to everything. and you all forget to look at what Amarr shine in, they are a suberb racail skill. and have alot of nice ships. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
General StarScream Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.04 15:19:00 - [1275] Originally by: Dhamon Grimwulf I recently put my amarr specced toon on hold. I dont think ill play her until CCP fixes Amarr( i wont hold my breath). I am playing Caldari now and it is great. Missles are far superior to lasers. I keep getting pleasantly surpried that the only thing I use cap on now is a shield booster when i need it. I still cant believe it. With amarr i ran out of cap fast even with skills, rechargers, and rigs. It was rediculous. So not only can Amarr not fit anything, they dont have cap, they dont have the damage against resistences, and they dont have sustainability. EVERYONE SWITCH TO CALDARI! Gallente is the same thing but people dont whine about it. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
General StarScream Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.04 15:22:00 - [1276] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/01/2008 14:40:58 Originally by: General StarScream You can look up facts you self cant you? pls point out where im wrong. If you do il give you 1 billion isk Dude, point me something you posted that was correct and I will give you 1 bil isk! You are nothing but a COAD troll who got out trolled by goons and bob and came here because you could not compete with them. People - just ignore Starscream, and StarScram - go back to COAD section of eve forms to troll there. My corp does not allow me to post in CoAd or i would have fun there. im just pointing out that all you winers are wrong about amarr. i bet i can skill for 30 days into amarr on sissi and beat anyone that challenge me in a fair fight same class vs same class Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
Naias	Posted - 2008.01.04 15:28:00 - [1277] Quote: i bet i can skill for 30 days into amarr on sissi and beat anyone that challenge me in a fair fight same class vs same class Fine. Start skilling Amarr then to show us how good they are
Laila Eldgorn	Posted - 2008.01.04 15:44:00 - [1278] Originally by: Dhamon Grimwulf I recently put my amarr specced toon on hold. I dont think ill play her until CCP fixes Amarr( i wont hold my breath). I am playing Caldari now and it is great. Missles are far superior to lasers. I keep getting pleasantly surpried that the only thing I use cap on now is a shield booster when i need it. I still cant believe it. With amarr i ran out of cap fast even with skills, rechargers, and rigs. It was rediculous. So not only can Amarr not fit anything, they dont have cap, they dont have the damage against resistences, and they dont have sustainability. EVERYONE SWITCH TO CALDARI! Awesome. So you're doing guristas level 2' I assume. That decides everything. Try minmatar btw. :p
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.04 16:37:00 - [1279] Originally by: General StarScream i bet i can skill for 30 days into amarr on sissi and beat anyone that challenge me in a fair fight same class vs same class I bet you cant. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:04:00 - [1280] I was about to say stop the trolling, the personal arguments, and the ****talking, but then I realized something. Still no CCP answer, we really do need trolling to keep this thread up. Maybe eventually they'll get annoyed with it enough to respond. I mean, every argument has been beaten into the ground already (whether here or any of the hundreds of other Amarr threads that have popped up), we have over 30 pages of VERY good discussion then a lot of people doing their best to keep the thread alive under the slim hope that something will happen.

PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:09:00 - [1281] Originally by: General StarScream races statistics dont mean anything other than what the % of people fly, it dont mean Amarr are the least best race. it just what people pick at the start, and alot of people on the fourm are ****s, claiming Gallente is best for pvp and bla bla bla. but they forget that every race has a role they are better than others at. Oh no - it means everything. If you dont like racial statistic - then look at ship statistic. Why so many gallente ships in eve if they are "most useless race" (your words). Why most used capitals are thanantos and moros(nerf its 50%/lvl drone bonus btw - why he has 1,1k dps with only 5 ogres?) (Ups - not archon and revelation). Why so many ppls use ravens and megas (are they all dump or something like that?). Why ppls fly crow, taranis and stilletos (so amarrs have second best ceptor - right?). Etc. etc. etc... Looks like no one knows about uberness of amarr race ( exept of you) :) I have proved my words with oficial facts. You havent proved anything. So im waiting 1 bil isk on this char. Or there is nothing behind your words? Originally by:** General StarScream they have alot of good ships, you cant base that amarr sucks cuse they got 1 stinky ship class, wich dont do as well as Caldri or other races, ment to be good at that. I wonder, why you (gallente, who never played amarr) try to prove amarrs that we are best race and have no problems at all? Many ppls posted in this thread and agreed that amarrs have problems. Some said that only some ships have problems and need fixes. And they proved theyr words with statistic, analisis, ballte experience (killboards) etc. And here goes General StarScream: "Amarrs are best race and gallente are worst bla bla bla. Statistics? It dont mean anything. Another player experience? They all noobs (even Thug on his Avatar). I know the true!" Do you know what word "trolling" mean?
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:21:00 - [1282] Edited by: PeacefullNub on 04/01/2008 17:23:21 Originally by: Dillius Archania I was about to say stop the trolling, the personal arguments, and the ****talking, but then I realized something. Still no CCP answer, we really do need trolling to keep this thread up. Maybe eventually they'll get annoyed with it enough to respond. I mean, every argument has been beaten into the ground already (whether here or any of the hundreds of other Amarr threads that have popped up), we have over 30 pages of VERY good discussion then a lot of people doing their best to keep the thread alive under the slim hope that something will happen. +1, Even trolls have some use Some ideas to discuss future: 1)interdictor (some solutions for heretic?) 2)Stealth bombers (why all of them use cruises? it is good for caldary\minmatar but not for amarr/gall) 3)Assault frigats (useless ships in eve, but maybe here, with some tweaks, amarr will have use?) 4)Khanid MK III (Is there any other solutions?) 5)Some general ideas for amarrs (maybe drone+lasers or missiles+lasers instead missiles+drones+lasers that we have today?)
Archa Caldari Chickens with an Attitude	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:26:00 - [1283] The best amarr ships are khanid ships. Because they use missiles. Nuf said.....
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.04 17:55:00 - [1284] Originally by: Archa The best amarr ships are khanid ships. Because they use missiles. Yes but it forces amarrs to: train gunnery (all skills) to use laser ships (allmost all t1), train drones to use ew frigs/recons/any BS (lasers have awefull tracking -so drones are impotant for surviving), train missiles to use best t2 ships and stealth bombers. Only thing that amarr dont need to train is shield tanking - but best amarr/caldary faction ships (sanshas) need it. So looks like amarrs need to train ALL skillgroups.
Killian Pirx eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.04 18:12:00 - [1285] 44 pages in 4 months, and still no dev response? CCP the players obviously have some strong opinions about this issue. You need to look into it.
Juliux Novi	Posted - 2008.01.04 18:36:00 - [1286] to the top
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 18:37:00 - [1287] Originally by: Killian Pirx 44 pages in 4 months, and still no dev response? CCP the players obviously have some strong opinions about this issue. You need to look into it. The last Amarr thread was over 100 pages. And then it was locked. Same thing here - this thread will hit 100 pages and boom! Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.01.04 19:05:00 - [1288] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Killian Pirx 44 pages in 4 months, and still no dev response? CCP the players obviously have some strong opinions about this issue. You need to look into it. The last Amarr thread was over 100 pages. And then it was locked. Same thing here - this thread will hit 100 pages and boom! Probably happen here to since most of the posts now are "bump", also doesn't help when people try to backup their opinions with "facts" that are wrong.
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.04 22:15:00 - [1289] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Killian Pirx 44 pages in 4 months, and still no dev response? CCP the players obviously have some strong opinions about this issue. You need to look into it. The last Amarr thread was over 100 pages. And then it was locked. Same thing here - this thread will hit 100 pages and boom! Probably happen here to since most of the posts now are "bump", also doesn't help when people try to backup their opinions with "facts" that are wrong. Which "fact" is wrong here? Except more or less everything Starscream writes..? ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Andrest Disch Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.04 22:31:00 - [1290] You would have thought that if CCP truely thought Amarr didn't need a boost, they would reply to this thread and tel us why. Unless they know they're in the wrong, and don't want to admit it, that is. =-s

Chronos VIII Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:21:00 - [1291] Originally by: General StarScream races statistics dont mean anything other than what the % of people fly, it dont mean Amarr are the least best race. it just what people pick at the start, and alot of people on the fourm are ******s, claiming Gallente is best for pvp and bla bla bla. but they forget that every race has a role they are better than others at. For EvE controll. this means Big fleets, pos take down. and mind nubing blobs, Amarr is king. they have alot of good ships, you cant base that amarr sucks cuse they got 1 stinky ship class, wich dont do as well as Caldri or other races, ment to be good at that. THis is what you Amarr whine about, you want to have OMG dev hax speed, DPs, tracking, Ship fitting No cap used, while using the best guns in game and doing the best dam to everything. and you all forget to look at what Amarr shine in, they are a suberb racail skill. and have alot of nice ships. You are missing the point here mate. We are not asking ccp to make amarr imbalanced or overpowered. The only thing we are asking is a "role". Apparently amarr is the cap race, but since everyone is using injectors in pvp, its pretty much useless to have a few thousand cap. Let me give you an example: Just think about the apoc. It has a massive cap but you cant really make use of it. I mean yea, you can easily fit a dual-rep fitting on that ship, but the point is that you doing no dps + other race's ships can and will "outtank" you. Chronos
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:26:00 - [1292] Very, very good OP. IBTL. Gort -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
General StarScream Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:28:00 - [1293] i did not say all amarr ships was the bomb. every race has some ships that are good, and some that or not so good for the roles, you like. i bet some people hate to fly some ships, while others love em. Amarr is a nice race to skill up in, cuse you get better and better ships the more high sp you are. Caldri is win all over, while Min are about the same as Amarr. and gallente are good in the middle sp range. now this is solo tho, with gangs everything changes. what would you kill a pos with A Moros or a Rev? ye right. what Bs gets 85% res to all with only t2 and dual rep, + uber cap`? amarr. wich race does close to mega dps and have the same drones at ranges from 2km-20km and can change to longer range at will? oh ye amarr. people forget the good sides about amarr. i think gallente stink. but i think most people hate there own race, or get bored with the skill set they have, cuse they want to do something someone else has skilled for, but they cant, since there race is not into that role, as perfect as other races. Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:41:00 - [1294] Originally by: General StarScream i think gallente stink. but i think most people hate there own race, or get bored with the skill set they have, cuse they want to do something someone else has skilled for, but they cant, since there race is not into that role, as perfect as other races. Starscream - Go back to trolling COAD. Guys - this Starscream guy is well known for trolling threads. He is doing this on purpose just to try to get the thread locked. Ignore him. Starscreame - Please read the last 44 pages to understand what has already been said. You say Gallente Stink. Lol. Please go back to the bob/goon/mc/KOS Trolls in COAD. Whats teh Matter? Cant post there because Mods will lock your posts? Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Drykor Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:48:00 - [1295] Edited by: Drykor on 04/01/2008 23:50:01 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 03/01/2008 11:56:35 The problem with Amarr is people like you who think that they are ok when they are broken. 1. You have to use tach with Amarr or you are stuffed. Other races competitive sniping range is 160km+. Amarr needs 3 tracking enhancers to hit 160km Optimal, as they cannot rely on falloff as they have the smallest falloff. If you use megabeams, then even Caldari eagles will out damage you in real world damage terms for snipers. 2. Nothing wrong with cepters other than those that use lasers. And the Rocket cepter does need a little boost, though it is half decent, not perfect mind you. 3. You cannot assume infinite cap for tanking, but we can bloody well expect to sustain more than 1 tach on a abaddon. So why did CCP give all Minmatar 100% Cap reduction on turrets a while back? Minmatar are now the cap race as 100% of their cap can go towards tank. For Amarr, almost 100% of cap goes towards lasers. 4. Low slots. Lets see how a 3 Heatsink Abaddon sniper does. Oh dear - it looks like 2-3 RCU's are used, depending on skills. So Abaddon now has 4-5 lows left. Oh dear, mids need at least 1 heavy cap booster + MWD so thats 2 mids and 4-5 lows left. Tach have crap range, so Add in 3 Range mods (for 160km Optimal) and 2 sensor booster II and thats you left with 1-2 lowslots for heatsinks. Looks like FAKESLOTS scenario is here to stay, as EVEN CALDARI have more "REAL" Lowslots. How the heck people even manage to do DPS calculations for a 9-10 low-slot abaddon(because they somehow think that 3 heatsink is possible on a "like for like" with other races) is beyond even me! 5. Pulse lasers have worse tracking for this 'low' range as you call it. For example, Megapulse + Conflag has 30%+ worse tracking than even non-Amarr Dreadnaughts 'low' range weapons. 6. Shield tankers use 2x invul and 1 x em hardner meaning EM is second highist resist. There are very few shield tankers, but thats ok, because Amarr vs Passive tanked drake usually ends up with amarr out of cap before drake dies. lol Amarr laserships are broken, as well as Amarr EW ships. Amarr EW ships are only good at EWing on Amarr themselves which is a joke to be honest. Also the Amarr ships that work, such as Sacriledge, are actually caldari ships, or what we call "Khanid" ships. You are a role player so you should know this. Isent your Alliance a Anti-Amarr Role Playing Alliance? LOL 1. AWW POOR TACHYON SNIPERS. Get over it, they are used all the time for sniping and there's a reason for it. They do sweet damage. 2. Except that inty is the fastest inty in the game and the damage on interceptors is not important anyway. 3. Well yeah, it uses cap. That's the downside of lasers. I don't see the big deal. 4. Most stuff you mentioned applies to all races. Snipers generally don't fit much of a tank. Btw, you only need 2 rcu's at most and that also means you can fit 2 1600mm plates and an afterburner, if you should want to. But you are a sniper right? Fitting MWD or afterburner is kinda suboptimal. Also means you can shoot for longer. And 1 heavy cap booster will keep you shooting for 14 minutes. You could even fit 2 if you drop the afterburner. Or hell, fit only 1 RCU and 2 medium cap boosters, they aren't that much worse than heavies and it will run your lasers forever. PLENTY of options here. 5. Yes, they track poorly at low range. But you get a great range, you can hit out to 60k with LOW RANGE guns, wrecking all ships between 10-60k. There is nothing more dangerous for approaching ships than guns like this, 'cause they still have low range gun tracking. 6. Fit a cap booster. For your information, every race has problems breaking a drake's tank on their own. Amarr is probably best at it. Oh btw, my alliance isn't anti-amarr, but nice try to stray from the actual argument. On top of that, I fly (and have kills with) all races up to cruiser size.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.05 00:49:00 - [1296] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 05/01/2008 00:50:04 Originally by: Dillius Archania I was about to say stop the trolling, the personal arguments, and the ****talking, but then I realized something. Still no CCP answer, we really do need trolling to keep this thread up. Maybe eventually they'll get annoyed with it enough to respond. I mean, every argument has been beaten into the ground already (whether here or any of the hundreds of other Amarr threads that have popped up), we have over 30 pages of VERY good discussion then a lot of people doing their best to keep the thread alive under the slim hope that something will happen. I think the questionable attention span of ccp balance team hinders them from being able to digest more then 1 page threads. Maybe we should start up new threads every day to make it easier for them to read. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.05 00:50:00 - [1297] Originally by: Drykor 5. Yes, they track poorly at low range. But you get a great range, you can hit out to 60k with LOW RANGE guns, wrecking all ships between 10-60k. There is nothing more dangerous for approaching ships than guns like this, 'cause they still have low range gun tracking. The biggest problem in my opinion IS the fact that we have this middle range capability. It's supposed to be one of our key advantages, being able to engage the target before they can engage us. But like has been said before, most combat is either at extreme close or long ranges, such as camping gates. Middle range is also useless unless you have tacklers. Furthermore, how are you supposed to truly exploit this advantage. Most all ships fit a MWD in this age of nano. Amarrian ships can't afford to use the MWD much if they want to be able to fire their guns. So how are we supposed to KEEP range so as to have an advantage? Anything you go against will quickly close to it's own optimal range anyways.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.05 04:19:00 - [1298] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 05/01/2008 04:19:25 This thread will stick on page 1 like glue until we get the response from a blue bump. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.01.05 04:20:00 - [1299] Edited by: Rikeka on 05/01/2008 04:20:49 Originally by: Drykor 2. Except that inty is the fastest inty in the game and the damage on interceptors is not important anyway. Bull, considering the impossible to fit Crusader, and the easy ride the Crow and the Taranis are (no idea on the Minnie one) Originally by: Drykor 3. Well yeah, it uses cap. That's the downside of lasers. I don't see the big deal. How would you know? You can use your entire cabase to tank. I bet that if theships you fly would use the cap the Amarr ships use, you would create similar threads too. Originally by: Drykor 4. Most stuff you mentioned applies to all races. Snipers generally don't fit much of a tank. Btw, you only need 2 rcu's at most and that also means you can fit 2 1600mm plates and an afterburner, if you should want to. But you are a sniper right? Fitting MWD or afterburner is kinda suboptimal. Also means you can shoot for longer. And 1 heavy cap booster will keep you shooting for 14 minutes. You could even fit 2 if you drop the afterburner. Or hell, fit only 1 RCU and 2 medium cap boosters, they aren't that much worse than heavies and it will run your lasers forever. PLENTY of options here. Bull**! You don¦t even know how to many slots an Abaddon has! STFU and get the hell out of this thread! 7 Tachy¦s + 3HS (the poster you quoted said 3 HS¦s) + Large Armor Repper II... Know how much is that, you fool? 32,003 PG!** (Yes, with Adv WU V...) An Abaddon pilot, fully skilled, can reach 26,650 PG on his ship. Two 1600mm plates and an afterburner? WTF you talking about? Forgetting about your rare and impossible setup, let¦s continue... 2 RCU II¦s help cover the distance Thus, 3 Heat Sinks + 2 RCU¦s + 1 Repper = 6 LOW SLOTS Which leaves only 1 LOW SLOT for a Tracking Enhancer II... Tachyon Beam Optimals with 2 Tracking Computers II on the MID SLOTS then? 168 KM... Want to compare that to the other sniper of the other races?!? People say "Oh, Amarr have Tachyon Beam Laser II¦s! Uber, so uber!" What you not realize is that is nearly impossible to fit 7 Tachy¦s, and still have a competent sniper! [Abaddon, Sniper 1] Large Armor Repairer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Power Diagnostic System II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Ancillary Current Router II Ancillary Current Router I Energy Locus Coordinator II On this setup, Abaddon can target at 200km, turret optimal is 185km... A shame it needs Tech II rigs, though... Oh, BTW: This setup can only fire for 2 minutes. Originally by: Drykor 5. Yes, they track poorly at low range. But you get a great range, you can hit out to 60k with LOW RANGE guns, wrecking all ships between 10-60k. There is nothing more dangerous for approaching ships than guns like this, 'cause they still have low range gun tracking. A) Oh, yes. Because a lot of fights occur at 60km, with one side approaching the other while being fired upon... AND they would have to be approaching the Amarr battleships really slowly in order for them to get killed by Amarr lasers... B) 60km? Mega Pulse II¦s with Radio L only reach 50km max... Originally by: Drykor 6. Fit a cap booster. For your information, every race has problems breaking a drake's tank on their own. Amarr is probably best at it. The Drake passive resist is an absurd, sure. But other ships can escape if something went wrong. Amarr cannot...
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.05 04:45:00 - [1300] Also to add, these impossible setups that people who dont fly amarr but tell amarr to use, are impratical and impossible. Any sniper without a MWD dies in teh first bubble it hits. Also - Amarr DO NOT HAVE 6 MIDSLOTS AND 12 LOW SLOTS to fit these theoretical setups that people think they have Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)

Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.05 04:51:00 - [1301] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Also to add, these impossible setups that people who dont fly amarr but tell amarr to use, are impratical and impossible. Any sniper without a MWD dies in teh first bubble it hits. Also - Amarr DO NOT HAVE 6 MIDSLOTS AND 12 LOW SLOTS to fit these theoretical setups that people think they have Man that sig of yours kept me entertained for a long time yesterday. Good stuff. "Haha, Look its an amarr player!" --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.01.05 04:51:00 - [1302] I don¦t use an MWD, though, cause I don¦t want to futher decrease the time I can fire (2 lousy minutes, don¦t want to make it 1 minute) I use my sniper as defense, anyway ("We wait, they come" I mean)and I¦m already aligned.
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.01.05 04:53:00 - [1303] Stop using Abaddon to try and prove stuff about sniping. If it could fit and run Tachys with 3 HS it would do 500 DPS which is 50% more than other snipers. Its cap use is there to stop it doing so while allowing for great close range setups.
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.01.05 05:20:00 - [1304] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Stop using Abaddon to try and prove stuff about sniping. If it could fit and run Tachys with 3 HS it would do 500 DPS which is 50% more than other snipers. Its cap use is there to stop it doing so while allowing for great close range setups. No other battleship outhere has the powergrid of an Abaddon. If the Abaddon can only fit a nice Tachyon Beam Laser II Sniper setup with Tech II rigs, no other ship can do it. BTW, the Abaddon can reach 950 DPS with Gleam... (but who in the rights minds use Gleam, I dunno) And it reaches a li¦l more of 500 DPS with Aurora (and 3 Heat Sinks) but you need some T1 rigs...
matty01 Minmatar Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.01.05 05:22:00 - [1305] /signed for everything except my sniperpoc, which i like the best all other amarr ships are broken though
Zana Kito Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.05 05:42:00 - [1306] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Stop using Abaddon to try and prove stuff about sniping. If it could fit and run Tachys with 3 HS it would do 500 DPS which is 50% more than other snipers. Its cap use is there to stop it doing so while allowing for great close range setups. 1. It's cap use AND its the stupid grid requirements on even Beams not to mention Tachs. 2. Laser RAW dps is meaningless given its target natural resist. Go check out typical sniper fits and come back and say amarr do more dps against high EM/therm resists. You can't even fit megabeams on apoc (geddon has much less grid), just 8 guns use more grid than what the ship has. For the abbadon, 8 beams is the full grid, nothing else for other mods. Lasers are clearly ****. Only ignorant people can even argue against that.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.05 05:43:00 - [1307] Somehow I get the feeling boost patch is gonna turn out to be a lie for amarr. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Lord Bastian	Posted - 2008.01.05 09:19:00 - [1308] Every time i have brought up some of the issues that i have regarding Amarr ships i get told that i need only to train my skills up and all will be fine, Ok i said fair enough ill train up my skills, and now a year later how do i feel? Deceived! So its been a year i have trained up my Sp's in Gunnery, Mechanics, Engineering, Drones, Electronics ect.. I focused on getting myself a fully Tech-2 fitted Harbinger with nice drone skills to boot, (im taking my time on moving up the ship's ladder and many of my skills are in Industry) so now i got my Harby with a full Tech II load out yay for me!! I asked a corp mate of mine if he would help me test some fittings out and let me get a feel for just how bad-ass i had become! So we head out to the middle of some system and start blasting each other, me in my Harby and he in his Drake and to my horror and utter disbelief i most certainly would have gotten popped were he not my corp mate I inquired as to what kinda fitting he was boasting only to find he was not yet able to fit any kind of Tech-2 modules (no way i thought) he was only running 7 heavy launchers some active hardners and a couple of Rep's ect.. wtf is going on here? So now for the past month i have struggled to find any TECH 2 setup that can Best a TECH 1 fitted drake to no avail, is that balanced or is the drake just that ubber (ok i know the drake is ubber) but then where's my ubber Amarr ship? where do i fit in to this picture? what does Amarr do better then any other? and to all of these questions the difinitive answer is NO! I cant run missions any better I cant PvP any better I cant Tank any better I cant use EW I cant Fit for lack of Pwr grid I cant do any Dmg besides EM/THERM I cant drone people to death but i can use my Apoc as a pretty safe means of low sec mining =) Now i know my focus is only on what i cant do, but i beg someone plz tell me.... a full Amarr pilot what can i do? where are my strength's whats my role? Am i the only pilot in EVE who's not always in a fleet? So what is it, do i need to train more? and if so then how come only Amarr need rediculous skills to shine, why do we need to invest 4 years before we can do what most others do at 1? Every Faction should have a ship in there arsenal that can be used effectively and competitively in its intended role of gameplay within EVE. Factions should not be blanket tunneled into roles which leave them cornered or forced to experience only certain aspects of the EVE-World Gameply, that would go against the history of EVE, all factions are striving for supremacy, survival.
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.05 09:19:00 - [1309] Originally by: Rikeka B) 60km? Mega Pulse II¦s with Radio L only reach 50km max... I tested this last night on the Abaddon with 4 T2 Tracking Computers with 'range scripts', T2 MPL and Radio (who uses Radio anyway...?) and got 70 km optimal. With Infrared I got 52 km. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.05 09:22:00 - [1310] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Stop using Abaddon to try and prove stuff about sniping. If it could fit and run Tachys with 3 HS it would do 500 DPS which is 50% more than other snipers. Its cap use is there to stop it doing so while allowing for great close range setups. Does it allow great close range setups? A capless 'dead int he wated'- ship isn't great close range ships... I wonder when you plan on replying to questions you get to your posts instead of feeding us with rendom and ignorant lies... But I guess that goes for more of you who opose an Amarr boost. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)

PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.05 09:53:00 - [1311] Originally by: General StarScream every race has some ships that are good, and some that or not so good for the roles, you like. Some facts: - did you know that all (exept abaddon) laser ships have only 1 ship bonus and any other races - 2? Originally by: General StarScream i bet some people hate to fly some ships, while others love em. I personly love omen and zealot, i even like to fly amarr AF for fun. But when i need real ship, not beauty piece of crap - i prefer to use sacre. I h8 this ship, and its ugly design, and missiles but - it has 2 bonuses, unlike zealot, and no cap\tracking problems - and what has zealot? Cool design - thats all. Originally by: General StarScream Amarr is a nice race to skill up in, cuse you get better and better ships the more high sp you are. Youre wrong. At high SP lvl (about 1 year) amarrs are only competentive with any other race, not better. I think if amarr ships at 5 lvl have some increased bonuses (like +100% to capusage instead +50% etc.) your words may have some true. But all races have same advantages at high SP lvls. Originally by: General StarScream Caldri is win all over, while Min are about the same as Amarr. and gallente are good in the middle sp range. Mate - best PvP race is GALLENTE. Why you dont whant to face it? If you dont have enough skills (real combat skills - not SP) to use best pvp race in game... Train amarrs - then you realise why its "eve on hard" Originally by: General StarScream what would you kill a pos with A Moros or a Rev? For pos siedge - Naglifar (2 turrets+ 2citadels and no weapon cap), then moros (drone bonus allows to use it vs moving targets), phoenix (nothing special, but still no cap for torpedoes), and finaly revelation (only 1 ship bonus, heavy weapon cap usage) Originally by: General StarScream ye right. what Bs gets 85% res to all with only t2 and dual rep, + uber cap`? amarr. Some facts: - did you know that amarr ships have no "ubercap"? Did you know that amarr ships (with exeption of apoc - it has shipbonus) have allmost same cap as any other racial ship? Thats right - abaddon has allmost same cap as roch/hyper/mael - did you know that any laser used cap like 2 blasters? Originally by: General StarScream wich race does close to mega dps and have the same drones at ranges from 2km-20km and can change to longer range at will? same race that cannot fire their guns more than 3 minutes with capbooster and without mwd and rephs? "Close to mega dps" is realy great advantage for enormious cap usage, no mwd use, no active tanking, and only 1 ship bonus Originally by: General StarScream people forget the good sides about amarr. No - we remember. We have coolest ship design and avatars. And ability to whine 24\7 on this forum Originally by: General StarScream i think gallente stink. Looks like you even dont know your own race, but still tried to teach us. Anyway - keep bumping this thread - even trolls have some use
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.05 11:05:00 - [1312] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: General StarScream - did you know that amarr ships have no "ubercap"? Did you know that amarr ships (with exeption of apoc - it has shipbonus) have allmost same cap as any other racial ship? Thats right - abaddon has allmost same cap as roch/hyper/mael - did you know that any laser used cap like 2 blasters? Maelstrom: 6k cap total and 1250 sec recharge time. (12 cap/s recharge on peak) Rokh: 6k cap total and 1250 sec recharge time. (12 cap/s recharge on peak) Hyperion: 7200 cap total and 1500 sec recharge time. (12 cap/s recharge on peak) Abaddon: 6375 cap total and 1250 recharge time. (12,75 cap/s recharge on peak) So the Abaddon has less cap than the Hyperion, but slightly better rechargerate. (I'm a little fuzzy on the formula I used ((total cap/rechargetime)2.5. Please correct me of I'm wrong) Originally by:* PeacefullNub Originally by: General StarScream i think gallente stink. Looks like you even dont know your own race, but still tried to teach us. Anyway - keep bumping this thread - even trolls have some use Starscream is the one who claims the Domi needs a serious boost to be competetive, so you can't really take him serious in any way. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Enden Assulu Caldari Ironbrow Industries Co. Empire Research	Posted - 2008.01.05 11:41:00 - [1313] I'm really confused so i went into EFT and got up the domi stats and it can't do that much DPS even with Ogre II and neutron II also it doesn't have the PG to fit and i tried your setup with 7 mag stab II and only got 489 DPS Also why would you put mag-stabs on a dominix???? it would have no tank at all maybe you should think what you are saying before you post or maybe some screen shots of your EFT configs. In fact i cant get anywhere near your DPS for any of the Gallente ships what are you fitting them with?? * * * M3h Skillz
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.05 11:44:00 - [1314] Edited by: SkyCrane on 05/01/2008 11:44:26 Originally by: Lord Bastian I cant run missions any better I cant PvP any better I cant Tank any better I cant use EW I cant Fit for lack of Pwr grid I cant do any Dmg besides EM/THERM I cant drone people to death but i can use my Apoc as a pretty safe means of low sec mining =) The Curse isn't halfbad, even with the NOS nerf. Only problem is the skillreq's and you need good drones kills to use her effective. And the Khanid ships are good too. Funny how no laser ships actually work the way they should in this game And the Domi is a better lowsec miner... Better tank and better defence, so... Apoc is pretty much crap at everything. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.05 12:00:00 - [1315] just to show some examples Abaddon (+20,4 cap\s) with 8 tachs II (-63,3 cap\s) used allmost same amount of cap as: rokh (+19,2 cap\s) with 8 425mm rails II + Large SB II (-62,1 cap\s) hyperion (+19,2 cap\s) with 8 425mm rails II + LAR II (-61,7 cap\s) maeldiction (+19,2 cap\s) with 8 140mm howitzer II + XL SB II (-72 cap\s) So where is a point? Abaddon has extra 1 cap\s (4% better than other BS) regen, but 8 tachs used 63 cap\s (300% of 425mm rails II). Where is balance?
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.05 12:00:00 - [1316] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 05/01/2008 12:00:31 Originally by: Enden Assulu I'm really confused so i went into EFT and got up the domi stats and it can't do that much DPS even with Ogre II and neutron II also it doesn't have the PG to fit and i tried your setup with 7 mag stab II and only got 489 DPS Also why would you put mag-stabs on a dominix???? it would have no tank at all maybe you should think what you are saying before you post or maybe some screen shots of your EFT configs. In fact i cant get anywhere near your DPS for any of the Gallente ships what are you fitting them with?? I Decided to play the "Anti-Amarr" pilots at their own game. You guys think non-mwd Amarr is good? Well, what about non-mwd domi? H: 6 x Neutron II WIth Navy Antimater M: X-Large Booster II, Warp Disrupter II, Heavy Cap booster II, 1 x Invul II, 1 X Photon II (or 2 X Invul) L: 1 X RCU II, 1 X Co-Processer II, 3 X Mag Stab II, 1 x Damage Control II Rigs: 3 x CCC Domi DPS of 1272! And can run Decent tank as well. OMG Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.01.05 12:45:00 - [1317] lawl... a non MWD blasterboat, firing antimatter, and not even a web in sight ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.05 13:05:00 - [1318] And how about non-mwd laserboat? Of course Domi need mwd to reach targets, but targets need mwd to keep distance. And laser boats cannot use mwd, so they cannot use "mid range"
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.01.05 13:09:00 - [1319] Originally by: Zana Kito Edited by: Zana Kito on 05/01/2008 05:46:33 Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Stop using Abaddon to try and prove stuff about sniping. If it could fit and run Tachys with 3 HS it would do 500 DPS which is 50% more than other snipers. Its cap use is there to stop it doing so while allowing for great close range setups. 1. It's cap use AND its the stupid grid requirements on even Beams not to mention Tachs. 2. Laser RAW dps is meaningless given its target natural resist. Go check out typical sniper fits and come back and say amarr do more dps against high EM/therm resists. 425mm railguns fit fine with grid to spare. 1400mm arties almost fit, a PDS in the lows is all thats required.. capless good damage. You can't even fit megabeams on apoc (geddon has much less grid), just 8 guns use more grid than what the ship has. For the abbadon, 8 beams is the full grid, nothing else for other mods. That's beam.. crap range, utter crap damage against actual resists, high cap use.. what's the advantage for all that sacrifice? Nothing. Tachs are horrid. Cap out so fast you will be useless in any prolong fleet action, unless you enjoy logistics to provide 800 cap charges constantly while others don't. Lasers are clearly ****. Only ignorant people can even argue against that. Thanks for agreeing with point 1, its pg/cap both stop it sniping properly. Point 2 is a load of rubbish. Lets give lasers even more damage because if people use armour and eanm they get hurt? lets just screw all the people who don't fit eanm or an armour tank at all. maelstrom and rokh are snipers and shield tank, even if pest is used it has more base shields than armour. armour is only 1 of 3 layers, structure (with dc) is the biggest layer of snipers unless DD tanked. so stop trying to play the damage type suck give more dps card . Lasers are clearly fine. Only ignorant people can argue ship by ship problems are their fault. See I can insult people to try and backup my arguement to.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.05 13:19:00 - [1320] Originally by: Gabriel Karade lawl... a non MWD blasterboat, firing antimatter, and not even a web in sight So, the heavy tank/gank domi that can do 1300+ DPS is silly? Why, just the Domi's drones alone can do more damage at 45km tham Amarr ships can. Oh wait - see the problem? No MWD on Amarr means you cannot dictate range. No Web on Amarr means enemy can exploit amarrs poor tracking to stay alive. I thought you guys were saying stuff like "Dont use MWD, use gangmate for web" and stuff like that. Well, doesent look so clever now, does it? So before you anti-amarr compare broken 12 lowslot amarr setups to present Amarr as OMGPWN, then allow me to do a perfectly honest and valid setup for Domi. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)

Marn Prestoc Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.05 14:54:00 - [1321] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Gabriel Karade lawl... a non MWD blasterboat, firing antimatter, and not even a web in sight So, the heavy tank/gank domi that can do 1300+ DPS is silly? Why, just the Domi's drones alone can do more damage at 45km tham Amarr ships can. Oh wait - see the problem? No MWD on Amarr means you cannot dictate range. No Web on Amarr means enemy can exploit amarrs poor tracking to stay alive. I thought you guys were saying stuff like "Dont use MWD, use gangmate for web" and stuff like that. Well, doesent look so clever now, does it? So before you anti-amarr compare broken 12 lowslot amarr setups to present Amarr as OMGPWN, then allow me to do a perfectly honest and valid setup for Domi. clearly your doing what many people here accuse people of and talking about ships you've never flown comparing a weak shield tanked gank domi that has 1/3 the range of lasers and without a mwd. Hell you could of at least put null in to get more range but that would of lowered your dps number so couldn't complain as much about it... 800 of that Domi's 1275 DPS comes at 5km with 13km falloff. 855 of a Geddons 1175 DPS comes at 15km with 10km falloff. 639 of a Domi using Null's 1114 DPS comes at 11km with 16km falloff. If you think getting into range with pulse lasers is hard try with blasters or AC's without a MWD, your being rediculous to just make up some rubbish numbers you can throw about that are completely wrong/useless. A XL booster, invuln and em hard is not a heavy tank LMAO. Would take minutes of constant repairing to make up for the HP of a plated setup. Hate to see what you call a weak tank or a strong tank. -
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.05 15:06:00 - [1322] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Lasers are clearly fine. I have to ask you - did you even use lasers? At least at cruisers size ships? lets compare lasers have advantages: Pulses 1)better optimal for close range Beams 1)better tracking for long range 2)better dps for long range i didnt mention instant ammo switching - becouse jamming bug still not fixed and real reloading time is 30-45s for 8 turrets (all amarrs know what im talking about) unlimited ammo is fake - t2/faction ammo has only 4000 shots and is quite expensive for pvp. hybrids have advantages: Blasters 1)better dps for close range 2)better fallof for close range 3)better tracking for close range 4)lower cap usage Rails 1)better optimal for long range 2)better fallof for long range 3)better fit reqs for long range 4)lower cap usage (lasers use 300% of hybrids cap) *laser EM/thermal damage vs armor omnitanks is weakest (2 top resists), vs shield omnitanks - average. Hybrids have average damage vs shield and armor omnitanks.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.05 16:06:00 - [1323] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 05/01/2008 16:06:31 Originally by: Marn Prestoc Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Gabriel Karade lawl... a non MWD blasterboat, firing antimatter, and not even a web in sight So, the heavy tank/gank domi that can do 1300+ DPS is silly? Why, just the Domi's drones alone can do more damage at 45km tham Amarr ships can. Oh wait - see the problem? No MWD on Amarr means you cannot dictate range. No Web on Amarr means enemy can exploit amarrs poor tracking to stay alive. I thought you guys were saying stuff like "Dont use MWD, use gangmate for web" and stuff like that. Well, doesent look so clever now, does it? So before you anti-amarr compare broken 12 lowslot amarr setups to present Amarr as OMGPWN, then allow me to do a perfectly honest and valid setup for Domi. clearly your doing what many people here accuse people of and talking about ships you've never flown comparing a weak shield tanked gank domi that has 1/3 the range of lasers and without a mwd. Hell you could of at least put null in to get more range but that would of lowered your dps number so couldn't complain as much about it... 800 of that Domi's 1275 DPS comes at 5km with 13km falloff. 855 of a Geddons 1175 DPS comes at 15km with 10km falloff. 639 of a Domi using Null's 1114 DPS comes at 11km with 16km falloff. If you think getting into range with pulse lasers is hard try with blasters or AC's without a MWD, your being rediculous to just make up some rubbish numbers you can throw about that are completely wrong/useless. A XL booster, invuln and em hard is not a heavy tank LMAO. Would take minutes of constant repairing to make up for the HP of a plated setup. Hate to see what you call a weak tank or a strong tank. And look on the big brain on Marn. Did you even bother reading that post? You missed the point. Please re-read what I wrote. My point was that people coming out with non-mwd setups are as useful as non-mwd domi. In other words - useless unless a idiot fights you. Here let me quote you this " I thought you guys were saying stuff like "Dont use MWD, use gangmate for web" and stuff like that. Well, doesent look so clever now, does it? See what I am saying in my post that you quoted? I am saying that non-amarr people coming up with theoretical setups that are useless in real world are the problem. To prove my point, I did a 1300dps domi theoretical setup. And that domi setup is still more viable than amarr. /me bangs head as you missed the point I was making over people making non-realworld setups to say amarr are good. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Marn Prestoc Minmatar Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.05 16:40:00 - [1324] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 05/01/2008 16:06:31And look on the big brain on Marn. Did you even bother reading that post? You missed the point. Please re-read what I wrote. My point was that people coming out with non-mwd setups are as useful as non-mwd domi. In other words - useless unless a idiot fights you. Here let me quote you this " I thought you guys were saying stuff like "Dont use MWD, use gangmate for web" and stuff like that. Well, doesent look so clever now, does it? See what I am saying in my post that you quoted? I am saying that non-amarr people coming up with theoretical setups that are useless in real world are the problem. To prove my point, I did a 1300dps domi theoretical setup. And that domi setup is still more viable than amarr. /me bangs head as you missed the point I was making over people making non-realworld setups to say amarr are good. 10km less optimal when your doing <200m/s? Sorry but that domi doesn't beat a Geddon or Abaddon in any catagory at all. Less damage or minutes longer to get into range and less tank. The lower the speeds the bigger the advantage having more range is. The point is megapulse can hit even with max damage faction ammo at 15km and reasonably well upto warp disruptor range, with t2 long range it has more than enough range. so if theres any ship that doesn't need a mwd is pulse laser BS, just because a ship with 1/3 the range sucks without a mwd doesn't mean other ships with more range suck to. Not saying they don't need them, but they need them the least of anyone. -
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.05 17:02:00 - [1325] Originally by: Marn Prestoc The point is megapulse can hit even with max damage faction ammo at 15km and reasonably well upto warp disruptor range, with t2 long range it has more than enough range. so if theres any ship that doesn't need a mwd is pulse laser BS, just because a ship with 1/3 the range sucks without a mwd doesn't mean other ships with more range suck to. Not saying they don't need them, but they need them the least of anyone. How do you plan on dictating range then? It's been said lots of times in here that a MWD'ing ship will be within it's optimal within 10 seconds, starting at 30 km's or whatever.. THat's 3 volleys in a Geddon, and maybe 2 volleys in an Abaddon. Is that enough to bag another BS? That's the key issue here which you obviously refuse to accept. Amarr has absolutely no way of dictating range no matter how much we try. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.05 17:28:00 - [1326] Originally by: Marn Prestoc 10km less optimal when your doing <200m/s? Sorry but that domi doesn't beat a Geddon or Abaddon in any catagory at all. That domi beats Gedeon and abaddon in raw DPS and decent tank categories. Who cares about optimal/speed/mwd/shield resists when on paper domi can overdps allmost all BS? Who cares that drones can be killed, or enemi can use mwd\web etc.? But on paper domi is ubership. Just like some abaddon\armageddon setups, when tracking, enemy speed, long time combats arent used in calculations. I think that was Jonny JoJo`s point. Originally by: Marn Prestoc Less damage or minutes longer to get into range and less tank. The lower the speeds the bigger the advantage having more range is. The point is megapulse can hit even with max damage faction ammo at 15km and reasonably well upto warp disruptor range, with t2 long range it has more than enough range. so if theres any ship that doesn't need a mwd is pulse laser BS, just because a ship with 1/3 the range sucks without a mwd doesn't mean other ships with more range suck to. Not saying they don't need them, but they need them the least of anyone. Actualy, if amarr ships could hold enemy at 15km range - all this may be true. But they cant. There is 2 warp scramblers types but only 1 web. And it has 10km range - not 15-20-25-50. So amarr ability to shot targets at 50km is useless (if there is no minmatar and gallente recons in gang for takling) Even with MWD amarr ships are slowest (maybe caldary are slower - but they use diffirent weapon system) So enemy with mwd is free to dictate range of combat, or evade it. Maybe low slots stasis webs with 20+ km range will solve "Mid range combat" problems. Or +15%\lvl web range bonus on ALL laserships instead cap_usage_bonus (so they can use simple webs for their "mid range") Or +1 free med slot on all laser ships for second web, so amarrs could hold enemy with mwd at least at 6-10km with 2 t2 webbs. But today there is no opportunity to hold enemy at 15-20kn - so there is no mid range combat.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.05 17:39:00 - [1327] Just to rehash - that is exactly my point - Paper setups can make useless setups look OMGBBQ. Problems with Amarr, for those who want a summery of last 45 pages is Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
LittleTerror Caldari Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.05 20:05:00 - [1328] I love my geddon. The only problems I see. Beams theres no real point in using them, they are hard to fit, they use a crap load of cap and do crap damage compared with the pulse lasers. For something that is hard to fit and eats your cap I would think it should do alot more damage, or at least be alot closer to what the mega pulse deal out. Beams imo should be like a long range siege weapon that does great damage at long range but can't hit anything thats moving especially at close range. If you have to sacrifice your tanking abilities a little and have fitting and cap issues it would make more sence if you deal alot more damage. Thats about it really, I'm quite happy with the mega pulse, I fly ships in all races and my favorite is Amarr, if people fit the ships for what they are designed for theres no real problems. The geddon imo melts stuff with a full rack of mega pulse, range is not an issue, they got the best range for thier highest damage guns imo, and can use many different crystals to quickly switch range. I don't think damage type is a problem when most PVP tanks are close to balanced resists anyway if that bothers people so much maybe they could give amarr some drone love. To be quite honest nothing needs a boost but gallente needs nerfing, I have no idea how they would do that though, damage nerf would not be so nice tbh
Valadeya uthanaras Killjoy.	Posted - 2008.01.05 23:44:00 - [1329] a few pages ago, a , "probably gallente" troll argued about the domi and armageddon comparison where the player tried to show why The MWD thingy is broken: Fact 1: amarr can't use a MWD, which he agreed on, because of capacitor amarr damage are applied......till the target get inside 10km, where they stop doing most damage, maily because of tracking(dev mad graph) gallente damage(blaster-domi) are applied ..... till the target get outside 20km gallente can fit a MWD without gimping their setup gallente can effectivly use a webifier to be more effective within 10 Km amarr dont have the cpu/slots to to fit a web Result: gallente doesnt need a teamate to be effective, if they have a teamate, they are more effective than amarr with a teamate Where is the balance......gallente troll...
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.05 23:58:00 - [1330] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 05/01/2008 23:58:23 Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras Where is the balance......gallente troll... There isnt, they just want you to think there is balance because many people cant/want to handle an equally powerful opponent. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice

LittleTerror Caldari Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.06 00:35:00 - [1331] Edited by: LittleTerror on 06/01/2008 00:38:14 Gallente is the solo pwn mobile and I hate that, people say fit webs hahah its not gonna stop a mwding megathron getting on top of you and then killing you due too stupid damage output. The domi is even worse, even with the nos nerf it can just fit one heavy energy neut and the rest nos and still kill your cap while feeding off your own cap, not as bad now but still with cap injector and drones with drone damage bonus it will kill you. Fair enough blasters being the highest damage but why is it so god damn easy to use that damage?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.06 00:46:00 - [1332] Originally by: LittleTerror Fair enough blasters being the highest damage but why is it so god damn easy to use that damage? Nerf to overall damage (stack nerf) and boosts to tanking (the overall hp boost) gave gallente a huge boost. CCP only recently got the idea to actually fix eos and myrm dmg output. I mean cmon, what moron designed myrm and thought it would be balanced? --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.01.06 02:26:00 - [1333] /signed
Uchuu Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.01.06 03:35:00 - [1334] Are we at the half-point now from the last amarr 100 page thread? I see no problems with amarr.... Then again the only ships I use are the geddon and harbinger in gangs... Rest I will use other race ships Oh right and the abaddon.... My point? If you are unsatisfied, go fly another race. You have the power in this game to do so. Not like other mmorpgs where you pick a horrid class and you are stuck with it.
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.06 03:52:00 - [1335] Originally by: Uchuu Are we at the half-point now from the last amarr 100 page thread? I see no problems with amarr.... Then again the only ships I use are the geddon and harbinger in gangs... Rest I will use other race ships Oh right and the abaddon.... My point? If you are unsatisfied, go fly another race. You have the power in this game to do so. Not like other mmorpgs where you pick a horrid class and you are stuck with it. Just sucks to have invested all these points into Amarr ships. Guess I'll just keep trainin up Minmatar.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.06 04:33:00 - [1336] Originally by: Uchuu Are we at the half-point now from the last amarr 100 page thread? I see no problems with amarr.... Then again the only ships I use are the geddon and harbinger in gangs... Rest I will use other race ships Oh right and the abaddon.... My point? If you are unsatisfied, go fly another race. You have the power in this game to do so. Not like other mmorpgs where you pick a horrid class and you are stuck with it. Uhm totally not true. They nerf my class in wow? Ez fix, ill just level up a char 1-70 in 2-3 weeks. I wanna see you spec from amarr to gallente/minmatar in 2-3 weeks and fly everything from commandships to battleships. Yeah... --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Aindrias Amarr Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.01.06 09:17:00 - [1337] /me commits voting fraud and signs this again.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.06 09:26:00 - [1338] Originally by: Uchuu Are we at the half-point now from the last amarr 100 page thread? I see no problems with amarr.... Then again the only ships I use are the geddon and harbinger in gangs... Rest I will use other race ships Oh right and the abaddon.... My point? If you are unsatisfied, go fly another race. You have the power in this game to do so. Not like other mmorpgs where you pick a horrid class and you are stuck with it. Em, I go to a resteraunt and order a meal and a cola. Meal is lovely. Thanks. The Amarr brand Cola is flat. Should I drink flat cola? Or should I let the waiter know that the drink is stale? The guy dinking Minmatar Brand cola tells the waiter its flat, and the waiter gets him a fizzy one. Now you, the Amarr cola drinker, going to sit back on your lazy ass and do nothing? You are the type of person who would drink flat stale cola. I, am the type of person who would say "Great meal CCP, cola is flat and needs fixing, but other than that - main course is excellent". I am also happy if CCP remove our Amarr SP and refund it on other races, so we can carry out your excellent suggestion Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Highkoo	Posted - 2008.01.06 10:43:00 - [1339] Edited by: Highkoo on 06/01/2008 10:43:04 How anyone can suggest hey, just train another Factions ships no biggie.....WOW All factions should have a ship in there arsenal that can at least compete with another factions ship of the same type. Factions were not designed and nor does the history of EVE support faction's being constrained to certain roles, that of course is what ships are for. Red vs Blue = best setup/skills win NOT Red vs Blue = Well of course Red wins
Paeniteo	Posted - 2008.01.06 10:58:00 - [1340] Lasers: Cons: - EM Damage type against primarily armor tankers (Two thirds of EVE) - The worst tracking out of every turret weapons system - More than twice the capacitor use of equal size & 'type' hybrids - Require you to carry tens of millions of isk worth of ammo on all laser ships - Beams require excessive amounts of power grid (Tachyons in particular) - Pulse have significantly lower DPS than blasters - Beams have significantly lower range than Rails - Switching used crystals is bugged and can take a long time - The medium range which lasers were designed for is extremely hard to govern Pros: + Lasers have a very small falloff ratio + Beams have significantly higher DPS than Rails + Pulse have slightly higher range than Blasters + Reload times are somewhat reduced (Refer to second last con) Now I am not at all saying that none of these cons should exist. This is simply the upsides and downsides of using lasers over other turret systems. The odd thing is the cons list is a hell of a lot bigger than the pros list, and the third 'pro' is actually moot because "mid range" doesn't work in practice. If you could add some pros to the list, go ahead and make my day. I can't think of any.

SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.06 11:14:00 - [1341] Originally by: Uchuu Are we at the half-point now from the last amarr 100 page thread? I see no problems with amarr.... Then again the only ships I use are the geddon and harbinger in gangs... Rest I will use other race ships Oh right and the abaddon.... My point? If you are unsatisfied, go fly another race. You have the power in this game to do so. Not like other mmorpgs where you pick a horrid class and you are stuck with it. So what you're saying is that if you are roleplaying as an Amarr pilot you're doomed to be the underdog forever? ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.06 11:26:00 - [1342] Originally by: Paeniteo Lasers: Pros: + Lasers have a very small falloff ratio Why is this a "Pro"? Short falloff meant you have to struggle harder to stay within 'damage dealing range' Originally by: Paeniteo + Beams have significantly higher DPS than Rails As base damage modifier, yes. But considering optimal, falloff and boni it's wrong. Originally by: Paeniteo + Pulse have slightly higher range than Blasters As of now, there's absolutely no advantage in that seing as the Amarr ship can't dictate range Originally by: Paeniteo + Reload times are somewhat reduced (Refer to second last con) Even though the reload bug rarely occurs when there is little lag, you may well find yourself doing nothing but change crystals untill your oponent has you webbed, scrammed and soon dead. Reason for that is poor tracking, short falloff and the ability to not being able to fit speedmods without seriously gimping your setup. Originally by: Paeniteo Now I am not at all saying that none of these cons should exist. This is simply the upsides and downsides of using lasers over other turret systems. The odd thing is the cons list is a hell of a lot bigger than the pros list, and the third 'pro' is actually moot because "mid range" doesn't work in practice. If you could add some pros to the list, go ahead and make my day. I can't think of any. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Paeniteo	Posted - 2008.01.06 13:04:00 - [1343] Edited by: Paeniteo on 06/01/2008 13:14:00 SkyCrane, not sure you read my post properly I already commented that mid range is hard to govern, therefore that pro is not a great one. I also said that lasers have a low falloff RATIO. That is to say only a small percentage of maximum range is in falloff. That's a good thing! It means if you're in range, you're more than likely in optimal. As for the reload bug, I get it nearly every time I change used crystals even in unpopulated systems. And beams have higher DPS than rails. For the sake of a less convoluted argument I separated DPS and Range, but I understand what you're trying to say. Still, my post was intended to show that these upsides to lasers are far outweighed by the downsides.
Archa Caldari Chickens with an Attitude	Posted - 2008.01.06 13:34:00 - [1344] In my oppinion the only upside to lasers is the fact that they don't use ammo and therefor are good for taking down posses. Aside from that. Lasers suck balls.
Ruciza Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.06 13:42:00 - [1345] Originally by: SkyCrane As of now, there's absolutely no advantage in that seing as the Amarr ship can't dictate range Oh, the ignorance. Repeating foolishness doesn't make it less foolish, Crane.
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.06 14:26:00 - [1346] Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: SkyCrane As of now, there's absolutely no advantage in that seing as the Amarr ship can't dictate range Oh, the ignorance. Repeating foolishness doesn't make it less foolish, Crane. Ok... I'm ignorant. At least I tell you why pulse are 'useless', you only flame without giving any good reason to it. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Ruciza Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.06 15:00:00 - [1347] Edited by: Ruciza on 06/01/2008 15:02:11 Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: SkyCrane As of now, there's absolutely no advantage in that seing as the Amarr ship can't dictate range Oh, the ignorance. Repeating foolishness doesn't make it less foolish, Crane. Ok... I'm ignorant. At least I tell you why pulse are 'useless', you only flame without giving any good reason to it. You can't give good reasons on Eve-O. Good reasons are either ignored or swamped with more foolishness. The main argument around here is the argument from popularity: If many think it's useless, it must be useless. If you really wanted to explain things, you would need hours upon futile, exhausting hours of your time, because misconceptions run deep. Flaming is all that remains, or maybe veiled hints: Gangs are not single point objects.
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2008.01.06 15:03:00 - [1348] Originally by: Paeniteo Lasers: Cons: - EM Damage type against primarily armor tankers (Two thirds of EVE) - The worst tracking out of every turret weapons system - More than twice the capacitor use of equal size & 'type' hybrids - Require you to carry tens of millions of isk worth of ammo on all laser ships - Beams require excessive amounts of power grid (Tachyons in particular) - Pulse have significantly lower DPS than blasters - Beams have significantly lower range than Rails - Switching used crystals is bugged and can take a long time - The medium range which lasers were designed for is extremely hard to govern Pros: + Lasers have a very small falloff ratio + Beams have significantly higher DPS than Rails + Pulse have slightly higher range than Blasters + Reload times are somewhat reduced (Refer to second last con) Now I am not at all saying that none of these cons should exist. This is simply the upsides and downsides of using lasers over other turret systems. The odd thing is the cons list is a hell of a lot bigger than the pros list, and the third 'pro' is actually moot because "mid range" doesn't work in practice. If you could add some pros to the list, go ahead and make my day. I can't think of any. Nice run through of pros and cons but i have to disagree with some of your cons as they are outwieghed by the pros.. - EM Damage type against primarily armor tankers (Two thirds of EVE) yes in theory a con. But when countered by the fact that you not stopping to fire for 20-30 seconds in the fight to reload it more than makes up for one of your dmg types being against the highest resist. - Require you to carry tens of millions of isk worth of ammo on all laser ships This is not required for normal pvp. Might be needed for 0.0 fleet warfare which is much different but not for us pirates when almost all pvp happened within 20km which is always in the optimal of the amarr navy multi freq's. So no need for tonnes of ammo in the hold. - Pulse have significantly lower DPS than blasters Again not having to reload multiple times mid fight makes up for the difference, also having better range. - Beams have significantly lower range than Rails Less range more dps. Means balance, you cant have best of both worlds. - Switching used crystals is bugged and can take a long time Agian in normal pvp ( non 0.0 sniper crap) no need to carry many different types of ammo s you dont have any part used crystals in hold which means no bug. So amarr might strugle keeping up in 0.0 combat, but is far better in lowsec combat where things are within 20km.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.01.06 15:13:00 - [1349] Quote: yes in theory a con. But when countered by the fact that you not stopping to fire for 20-30 seconds in the fight to reload it more than makes up for one of your dmg types being against the highest resist. What are you talking about? A con is a con. Or do rotten apples taste better because the bananas next to it are fresh? Yes the reloading is a pro, and it's listed as such, and it's entirely unrelated to the damage types. That aside, even a 1400mm Howie can fire for 90 seconds, and it's by far the gun with the most reloading.
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2008.01.06 15:21:00 - [1350] Originally by: Traeon Quote: yes in theory a con. But when countered by the fact that you not stopping to fire for 20-30 seconds in the fight to reload it more than makes up for one of your dmg types being against the highest resist. What are you talking about? A con is a con. Or do rotten apples taste better because the bananas next to it are fresh? Yes the reloading is a pro, and it's listed as such, and it's entirely unrelated to the damage types. That aside, even a 1400mm Howie can fire for 90 seconds, and it's by far the gun with the most reloading. So you call it a pure con. Way i see it is its setup that to balance the laser out. If they did other dmg types they would be far too powerful do to the no reloading. It all balances out. The game has to be balanced lasers do em dmagage to balance them out. If they changed lasers to different dmg types they would have to add normal ammo reloads to them. Then you would all be *****ing that you now had to reload all the time like everyone else. If you dont liek the way they chose to bablance them dont use them.

Thuranni The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.01.06 15:35:00 - [1351] This thread is stupid.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.01.06 15:37:00 - [1352] Edited by: Traeon on 06/01/2008 15:42:42 Quote: So you call it a pure con. Way i see it is its setup that to balance the laser out. If they did other dmg types they would be far too powerful do to the no reloading. It all balances out. The game has to be balanced lasers do em dmagage to balance them out. If they changed lasers to different dmg types they would have to add normal ammo reloads to them. Then you would all be *****ing that you now had to reload all the time like everyone else. If you dont liek the way they chose to bablance them dont use them. The way i see it, lasers are limited by cap, not by reload in longer fights. I bet every laser user here except maybe the die-hard poskillers would take reload over cap issues any day. The laser damage types are just stupid. If a weapon can't change its damage types then it should always go up against average resists.
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.06 16:17:00 - [1353] Originally by: Ruciza You can't give good reasons on Eve-O. Good reasons are either ignored or swamped with more foolishness. The main argument around here is the argument from popularity: If many think it's useless, it must be useless. If you really wanted to explain things, you would need hours upon futile, exhausting hours of your time, because misconceptions run deep. Flaming is all that remains, or maybe veiled hints: Gangs are not single point objects. Kinda the reply I expected... Smalltalk with fancy words I reply to this thread from a PVE point of view and your way of replying to my posts seems silly... at best. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.06 17:36:00 - [1354] Originally by: Aranbaal - EM Damage type against primarily armor tankers (Two thirds of EVE) yes in theory a con. But when countered by the fact that you not stopping to fire for 20-30 seconds in the fight to reload it more than makes up for one of your dmg types being against the highest resist. Actualy - reloading time allready included in all dps calculation in this thread. (Just cheked - mega has 790 dps (7 neutr II + 3 magstabs II, no drones) with reloading time and 813 dps without it.) Originally by: Aranbaal - Require you to carry tens of millions of isk worth of ammo on all laser ships This is not required for normal pvp. Might be needed for 0.0 fleet warfare which is much different but not for us pirates when almost all pvp happened within 20km which is always in the optimal of the amarr navy multi freq's. So no need for tonnes of ammo in the hold. If you didnt know, Mega pulses II with multi have 15 km optimal. And this therad is not about lowsec pirating in trashfited abaddons - reloading bug exists and real annoying, 90% amarr pilots have 2-3 lenses sets in cargo. And not all amarrs are lowsec gatechampers. Originally by: Aranbaal - Pulse have significantly lower DPS than blasters Again not having to reload multiple times mid fight makes up for the difference, also having better range. again - reloading time allready included... Originally by: Aranbaal - Beams have significantly lower range than Rails Less range more dps. Means balance, you cant have best of both worlds. Of course. But why beams have useless tracking bonus instead of useful optimal\fallof bonus? maybe -30% tracking + 30% optimal? Its looks like fair balancing - but only on paper. In real snipers pvp range>damagetype>damagemod>dps>tracking. Originally by: Aranbaal - Switching used crystals is bugged and can take a long time Agian in normal pvp ( non 0.0 sniper crap) no need to carry many different types of ammo s you dont have any part used crystals in hold which means no bug. Again - your gate piracy istn normal pvp. Eve world is much biger than 15km gaterange...
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2008.01.06 18:02:00 - [1355] Originally by: PeacefullNub Actualy - reloading time allready included in all dps calculation in this thread. (Just cheked - mega has 790 dps (7 neutr II + 3 magstabs II, no drones) with reloading time and 813 dps without it.) Ahh so you have worked out reload times and everything in a decent lenght fight have you. Most fleet fights last longer than one reload. So saying you have included reload times is just bull. You cant include them unless you have worked out the fight over a set ammount of time. People in this tread seem to have a very blinkered view of amarr. Only seeing what they deam as downsides when the upsides are bloody good too.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.06 19:04:00 - [1356] Some said that pulses dont need high tracking and tracking is useless at 10km (web) range. Some tracking calculations 5 lvl motion prediction, no tracking\weapon bonuses: Megapulse II (Navy multi L) and Neutron blaster II (any t1 ammo that hits range) has chanse to hit (%): 1) BS orbiting 14km without ab\mwd (400 signature, 150 tranversal, 14km range) - 89.3/95.6 2) BS orbiting 11km with AB (400\300\11) - 63.6/83 3) BS orbiting 14km with MWD (2000\400\14) - 93,8/95 4) Webbed(80%) bs at 2km (400\30\2000) - 87.2/94.8 5) Bestower at 15km (gatechamp) (210\150\15) - 74.7/86.83 So final dps of mighty "owerpowered" Abaddon vs ANY moving target is slightly lower, even when target is webbed.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.06 19:18:00 - [1357] Originally by: Aranbaal Originally by: PeacefullNub Actualy - reloading time allready included in all dps calculation in this thread. (Just cheked - mega has 790 dps (7 neutr II + 3 magstabs II, no drones) with reloading time and 813 dps without it.) Ahh so you have worked out reload times and everything in a decent lenght fight have you. Most fleet fights last longer than one reload. So saying you have included reload times is just bull. You cant include them unless you have worked out the fight over a set ammount of time. People in this tread seem to have a very blinkered view of amarr. Only seeing what they deam as downsides when the upsides are bloody good too. Do you realy thinks that anyone here manualy added 30\60\90 empty seconds for dps calculations? Do you know from where this dps stats come? Maybe you think that all readers use pan and paper? Looks like stupid gatechamping 24/7 burns your mind. No, realy - do you know EFT/QF? Its 2008 - not 2004.
Zathi Shaitan Minmatar Illiteracy Combatants	Posted - 2008.01.06 19:24:00 - [1358] Originally by: PeacefullNub A typo in your name only says you're ignorant. Stop posting.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.06 19:43:00 - [1359] Originally by: Zathi Shaitan Originally by: PeacefullNub A typo in your name only says you're ignorant. Stop posting. 1) At least my name has some sense 2) I dont care when people call me noob 3) Its better to be laughting peacefullnub, who dont hides lack of knowlege, than LordOfDeathAndChaos (or something like it) - who hides true (weak and stupid) self behind his scary avater and his name.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.06 21:04:00 - [1360] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 06/01/2008 21:05:21 Originally by: Zathi Shaitan Originally by: PeacefullNub A typo in your name only says you're ignorant. Stop posting. You are trolling this thread to get it locked. Can a mod remove these non-topic related posts. Just ignore trolls that are not discussing amarr. For those who want a recap of current issues over the last 47 pages, it is as follows Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)

Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.06 21:27:00 - [1361] Originally by: PeacefullNub Edited by: PeacefullNub on 06/01/2008 19:47:16 Some said that pulses dont need high tracking and tracking is useless at 10km (web) range. Some tracking calculations 5 lvl motion prediction, no tracking\weapon bonuses: Megapulse II (multi L) and Neutron blaster II (any t1 ammo that hits range) has chanse to hit (%): 1) BS orbiting 14km without ab\mwd (400 signature, 150 tranversal, 14km range) - 89.3/95.6 2) BS orbiting 11km with AB (400\300\11) - 63.6/83 3) BS orbiting 14km with MWD (2000\400\14) - 93,8/95 4) Webbed(80%) bs at 2km (400\30\2000) - 87.2/94.8 5) Bestower at 15km (gatechamp) (210\150\15) - 74.7/86.83 So final dps of mighty "owerpowered" Abaddon vs ANY moving target is slightly lower, even when target is webbed. If these numbers are indeed accurate, it's a pretty significant point.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.06 21:34:00 - [1362] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 04/01/2008 09:22:04 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Marn Prestoc Whats your reasoning for the tracking boost? ACs are only about 30% better tracking than pulse. When you consider AC's lose damage from a fraction of the range of lasers isn't that fair? Or is the cap use of pulse only fair with equal tracking, more range and more raw damage than AC's? Err? "Only" 30% better? CCP just completely re-wrote how Torpedoes work to give them "only" a 30% increase in damage. 30% is huge, especially when that 30% is the only counter to most small gang ships which rely on speed. You don't even have to go fast to keep from being hit by Amarr.... Next time you make 1 billion can I have "only" 30% of it? PS-Yes, I have an alt that flies only Amarr.... Eh? What is your point? That expensive ships are allowed better tracking? If I spend 70 billion, which is the market price for a Imperal Apoc, and fit it with megapulse + conflag, it has worse tracking than only 2bil isk fitted non-Amarr dreadnaughts with close range weapons. 30%+ worse So I am trying to understand what exactly your point is? WTF has torps got to do with this, as I think torp change was good for pvp? Oh Wait - Torp buff means that CCP boost caldari, boosts Minmatar (like insted of giving minmatar 10% cap reduction per level, they gave minmatar 100% cap reduction on all guns in the last minmatar fix) Johnny, I'm on your side I was commenting on how big 30% was; the poster was claiming there was "only" a 30% difference in tracking on the short range guns, I feel that 30% is a ridiculously large amount. Amarr have the only short range weapons you can avoid with a AB; try getting away from any AC with only an AB fitted..... CCP just completely re-wrote torpedoes to make them PvP-viable; in that re-write they "only" increased their DPS by ~30%. If they needed to completely redo Torps to make that 30% dps increase and keep things in balance just think what they would need to do in re-writing lasers to "fix" the 30% tracking deficit (bad tracking can make a 100% difference in DPS you know)..... As for the billion comment, if he doesn't think that 30% is a huge difference I would like him to send me 300 million of the next billion he makes (since its "only" 30%). I promise I will use it to attempt to make my Amarr ships perform Every time I take one out I cry. People say Minmatar don't perform until you have high SP; Mins are awesome at lower skill levels compared to Amarr Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Ruciza Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.06 22:15:00 - [1363] Originally by: Dillius Archania Originally by: PeacefullNub Edited by: PeacefullNub on 06/01/2008 19:47:16 Some said that pulses dont need high tracking and tracking is useless at 10km (web) range. Some tracking calculations 5 lvl motion prediction, no tracking\weapon bonuses: Megapulse II (multi L) and Neutron blaster II (any t1 ammo that hits range) has chanse to hit (%): 1) BS orbiting 14km without ab\mwd (400 signature, 150 tranversal, 14km range) - 89.3/95.6 2) BS orbiting 11km with AB (400\300\11) - 63.6/83 3) BS orbiting 14km with MWD (2000\400\14) - 93,8/95 4) Webbed(80%) bs at 2km (400\30\2000) - 87.2/94.8 5) Bestower at 15km (gatechamp) (210\150\15) - 74.7/86.83 So final dps of mighty "owerpowered" Abaddon vs ANY moving target is slightly lower, even when target is webbed. If these numbers are indeed accurate, it's a pretty significant point. There is another significant point, and that is called selective perception.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.06 22:59:00 - [1364] Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Dillius Archania Originally by: PeacefullNub Edited by: PeacefullNub on 06/01/2008 19:47:16 Some said that pulses dont need high tracking and tracking is useless at 10km (web) range. Some tracking calculations 5 lvl motion prediction, no tracking\weapon bonuses: Megapulse II (multi L) and Neutron blaster II (any t1 ammo that hits range) has chanse to hit (%): 1) BS orbiting 14km without ab\mwd (400 signature, 150 tranversal, 14km range) - 89.3/95.6 2) BS orbiting 11km with AB (400\300\11) - 63.6/83 3) BS orbiting 14km with MWD (2000\400\14) - 93,8/95 4) Webbed(80%) bs at 2km (400\30\2000) - 87.2/94.8 5) Bestower at 15km (gatechamp) (210\150\15) - 74.7/86.83 So final dps of mighty "owerpowered" Abaddon vs ANY moving target is slightly lower, even when target is webbed. If these numbers are indeed accurate, it's a pretty significant point. There is another significant point, and that is called selective perception. And here is another point, and that is called being clueless. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
nihlanth	Posted - 2008.01.06 23:11:00 - [1365] Edited by: nihlanth on 06/01/2008 23:14:27 Edited by: nihlanth on 06/01/2008 23:13:56 Edited by: nihlanth on 06/01/2008 23:13:38 Edited by: nihlanth on 06/01/2008 23:12:43 There are currently too few people playing Amarr. In order for more people to join our empire, we need a boost. When a new player joins, they will choose the easiest race to play if they read our forums just a little bit before starting a new character - that being the Gallente. This is proof enough. Out of all other races, we have the smallest population of players. Either boost Amarr's cruisers, lasers and frigates, or nerf gallente cruisers, battleships and frigates. There are very few Amarr - based corps compared to other faction corps.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.06 23:21:00 - [1366] Originally by: Ruciza There is another significant point, and that is called selective perception. I used this numbers only to show that low pulses tracking has some impact on dps, compared to blasters\AC. Let me show you "selective perception" Megapulse II and Neutron blaster II 1) Typhoon without mwd orbiting at 12,5km ( (320/188/12.5) 80.43% and 91.37% 2) Webbed (90%, 18.8 m/s) Typhoon at 1km (320/19/1) 70.95% and 87.5% maybe you need some nanophoon setups here?
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2008.01.07 00:52:00 - [1367] Originally by: PeacefullNub Do you realy think that anyone here manualy added 30\60\90 empty seconds for dps calculations? Do you know where from this dps stats come? Maybe you think that all readers and OP used pan and paper? Looks like stupid gatechamping 24/7 burns your mind. No, realy - do you know EFT/QF? Its 2008 - not 2004. Ah so i am correct then you have based your calculations on a fight having 1 reload to get ur dps results. As that is how eft works. It factors in one reload to the dps calculations. So as stated try goin away and working it out with multiple reloads. And then see how much dmg lasers give ot in an prolonged battle. Basing your argument on what a 3rd party program tells you that doesnt take all teh factors into account isnt a very good way to prove your point.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.07 01:10:00 - [1368] Originally by: Aranbaal Originally by: PeacefullNub Do you realy think that anyone here manualy added 30\60\90 empty seconds for dps calculations? Do you know where from this dps stats come? Maybe you think that all readers and OP used pan and paper? Looks like stupid gatechamping 24/7 burns your mind. No, realy - do you know EFT/QF? Its 2008 - not 2004. Ah so i am correct then you have based your calculations on a fight having 1 reload to get ur dps results. As that is how eft works. It factors in one reload to the dps calculations. So as stated try goin away and working it out with multiple reloads. And then see how much dmg lasers give ot in an prolonged battle. Basing your argument on what a 3rd party program tells you that doesnt take all teh factors into account isnt a very good way to prove your point. Yeah but its in smaller fights where that dps difference is important and in smaller fights YOU DONT RELOAD. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Paeniteo	Posted - 2008.01.07 01:17:00 - [1369] Edited by: Paeniteo on 07/01/2008 01:22:01 Originally by: Aranbaal Less range more dps. Means balance, you cant have best of both worlds. Your reading comprehension fails. Refer to quote: Originally by: Paeniteo Now I am not at all saying that none of these cons should exist. And I listed beams having higher DPS as a pro. Peacefullnub's post covers everything else nicely. Twice now people have put words in my mouth. I'm starting to remember why I never posted in this thread until now
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.07 02:17:00 - [1370] Edited by: PeacefullNub on 07/01/2008 02:25:26 Originally by: Aranbaal Ah so i am correct then you have based your calculations on a fight having 1 reload to get ur dps results. As that is how eft works. It factors in one reload to the dps calculations. So as stated try goin away and working it out with multiple reloads. And then see how much dmg lasers give ot in an prolonged battle. Basing your argument on what a 3rd party program tells you that doesnt take all teh factors into account isnt a very good way to prove your point. I dont added 1 reload, not 2-100000 reloads. Allright - lets go hard way. DPS - damage per SECOND (not per Minute, not per hour etc.) Lets rememder some earlier school lessons. (all readers with A&B grades may skip that part) For example: 125mm gatling autocanon and emp S (40 chardges, 3 sec rof without skills - 23 damage per shot) 1)dps without reload (40x23)/120 = 7.666 (eft shows 8) 2)dps with reloading time (40x23)/(120+10)= 7.07 (eft shows 7) dps will be the same even if we take 24 hour damages and reloads. 3)dps with 10 reloads (400x23)/(1200+100)=7.0769230769 Any questions about school mathematics?

Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.07 09:45:00 - [1371] Bump. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
British Bulldog Amarr 4gone Conclusion	Posted - 2008.01.07 09:57:00 - [1372] There is a valid reason why Amarr have the least user base out of the four races and it's not down to the aesthetics of the looks of our ships is it. About two years ago the Amarr were very competitive on the battlefield, to the extent that everyone was moaning how powerful they were. Over this time they have been slowly and surely chipped away and nerfed to the extent people don't use the ships whilst new recruits just aren't signing up. I'm proud to be Amarr, I love my ships and I've spent a lot of time skilling purely for this race. I do not wish to be forced into skilling up for other races due to uncompetitivness. True, a lot of gunnery and other universal skills are not race specific but Spaceship Command can take months to get them to decent levels. Whilst variety is the spice of life, that choice is up to the individual and I don't want to hear other race, smug players saying it was "your choice so deal with it" please. I do not want to see Amarr over compensated but the facts are in the figures. There is a reason why people choose not to play Amarr which is quite obvious. Why would there be a thread of over 2 months old, still very much alive, if this was the case?! CCP need to sit down and do some serious number crunching to address this without over compensating with quick fixes. This is not about nerfing other races, I would like to see the Amarrians back on a level playing field. They have a huge role to play in this game whether PvE or PvP.
Opan santel Gallente Furious Gaming Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.07 11:14:00 - [1373] signed, and yes, I did read every word of it...
Waukesha Amarr Knights of the Burger King YTMND.	Posted - 2008.01.07 11:17:00 - [1374] I fly Amarr, Mini, Gheylente and indeed Amarr is lacking..
Zataaki GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.07 11:33:00 - [1375] as far as t1 ships go, the harbinger geddon and abaddon are all very good ships - you can't just look at DPS to get an idea of a ship's offensive potential. It's the combination of dps tracking and range. Lasers also use more cap than other weapons but they also don't require ammo to shoot and you can switch the crystal instantly which makes them very versatile. I fly all but gallente battleships and t2 small ships, and there are definitely areas where amarr shines, like remote rep battleship gangs, shooting poses and blood/sansha rats, the harbinger is a great anti-everything ship like the muninn, the abaddon makes a great megatank tackling bait ship as well as a full offense dps platform. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Koryvarn Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2008.01.07 11:52:00 - [1376] So what about the remaining ships Zataaki? All the cruisers? The recons, the zealot, the frigates bar the Punisher. The Abaddon. Every race has decent ships with bad ships as the exceptions. With Amarr, the good ships are the exceptions.
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.07 11:54:00 - [1377] Originally by: Zataaki as far as t1 ships go, the harbinger geddon and abaddon are all very good ships - you can't just look at DPS to get an idea of a ship's offensive potential. It's the combination of dps tracking and range. Lasers also use more cap than other weapons but they also don't require ammo to shoot and you can switch the crystal instantly which makes them very versatile. I fly all but gallente battleships and t2 small ships, and there are definitely areas where amarr shines, like remote rep battleship gangs, shooting poses and blood/sansha rats, the harbinger is a great anti-everything ship like the muninn, the abaddon makes a great megatank tackling bait ship as well as a full offense dps platform. First of all lasers do indeed need ammo to work.. And the so called instant change of crystals is a blatant lie. Everyone who flys Amarr ships knows this, and if they claim it doesn't exist, they're either lying, or don't fly Amarr ships at all and argue just for the sake of it. Secondly, you point out facts which is already known in here. What I personally miss is a good PVE ship. The ABaddon is fine, but nothing more than that. It's still ineffective when it comes to killing anything but Sansha and Blood Raiders, and she's also got problems tanking the others. I don't think it's right of CCP to dictate which ship I should use if I want to do missions... I did some 'research' and saw which ships Aranbaal and RedBack uses when they pirate and they do indeed use Abaddon. The question I raise is how they claim this is "real" PvP and fleetbattles isn't. Gatecamping is within 20 km's, but do the guys they shoot at even try to fight back? How many of the guys you kill try to fight back? ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.07 11:57:00 - [1378] Edited by: SkyCrane on 07/01/2008 11:57:28 Originally by: Koryvarn So what about the remaining ships Zataaki? All the cruisers? The recons, the zealot, the frigates bar the Punisher. The Abaddon. Every race has decent ships with bad ships as the exceptions. With Amarr, the good ships are the exceptions. Actually the Curse is fine. It really is, it only needs a coupple supportships now. It's been severly nerfed, but it's still a working ship imo. The Zealot either needs speed or more armor, and then it's fine. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
DarkZaion Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.07 12:09:00 - [1379] /signed
Kasak Black The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.01.07 12:11:00 - [1380] I've signed this twice before but I'll sign it again! \\ SIGNED //

Avery Ubermann Pitbull Industries	Posted - 2008.01.07 14:26:00 - [1381] SIGNED! Advanced Psychosis/ Rank 8 / SP: 666666 of 2048000 Currently training to: level 5
LordChaos Amarr Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.07 15:58:00 - [1382] Amarr do have problems .................. but they have the geddon :) 1vs1 will *****any other BS FULL STOP :)~ The Master Of Chaos
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.07 16:13:00 - [1383] What is Geddons DPS over a 10 minute period? A Tachy geddon has around 340dps for 2 and a half mins then its cap out. Therefore Tachy Geddon DPS is (340 x 2.5)/10 = 85 DPS. This, gentlemen is the problem with Amarr. And what about battles that last only 2 minutes? Well, those are just ganks and it would make little or no difference what ship the pilot was in. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Laboratus Gallente BGG Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.01.07 16:20:00 - [1384] Are the numbers in the OP current? Seem a bit out of date atm, I'm getting significantly higher dps from all ships fitting missiles... JJJ. No. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Techkraft Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.07 16:44:00 - [1385] I will sign this, if: the absolution gets its 4 mid and a large t2 crystal that hits at 0m-1000m. thats all i ask, thats all i want.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:27:00 - [1386] Originally by: Techkraft I will sign this, if: the absolution gets its 4 mid and a large t2 crystal that hits at 0m-1000m. thats all i ask, thats all i want. Yeah drool abso with 4 mids, the perfect ship. I want one --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.01.07 19:12:00 - [1387] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Gabriel Karade lawl... a non MWD blasterboat, firing antimatter, and not even a web in sight So, the heavy tank/gank domi that can do 1300+ DPS is silly? Why, just the Domi's drones alone can do more damage at 45km tham Amarr ships can. Oh wait - see the problem? No MWD on Amarr means you cannot dictate range. No Web on Amarr means enemy can exploit amarrs poor tracking to stay alive. I thought you guys were saying stuff like "Dont use MWD, use gangmate for web" and stuff like that. Well, doesent look so clever now, does it? So before you anti-amarr compare broken 12 lowslot amarr setups to present Amarr as OMGPWN, then allow me to do a perfectly honest and valid setup for Domi. Don't try to twist it... that dominix has a 3.375km range while stuck at ~150m/sec that is not 'perfectly acceptable' it's perfectly useless. Those drones at best do 475dps, and take 45 seconds to get in range, so don't bull**** about "more damage at 45km than amarr ships", your bloody pulse lasers can reach out that far with T2 ammo and start hitting right away... Oh and, a Mega Pulse boat has 15km range with equivalent ammunition, and a 50% hit chance on a 400m target orbiting at 210m/s at 5km. You don't even need to web a Battleship to hit it, and the only thing coming into 5km range is going to grind to halt in front of you so it's blasters don't miss - an Ion II Megathron firing Faction AM has a 50% hit chance on a 400m target orbiting at 267m/sec at 3.375km (It's optimal range). ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.01.07 19:17:00 - [1388] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 07/01/2008 19:20:00 Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras a few pages ago, a , "probably gallente" troll argued about the domi and armageddon comparison where the player tried to show why The MWD thingy is broken: Fact 1: amarr can't use a MWD, which he agreed on, because of capacitor amarr damage are applied......till the target get inside 10km, where they stop doing most damage, maily because of tracking(dev mad graph) gallente damage(blaster-domi) are applied ..... till the target get outside 20km gallente can fit a MWD without gimping their setup gallente can effectivly use a webifier to be more effective within 10 Km amarr dont have the cpu/slots to to fit a web Result: gallente doesnt need a teamate to be effective, if they have a teamate, they are more effective than amarr with a teamate Where is the balance......gallente troll... Talking about Mega Pulses vs a Battleship that is pure nonsense, 50% hit chance at 5km, where the target is orbiting at 210 m/sec, and by extension 50% hit chance at 10km when the target is orbiting at 420 m/sec. If you're talking about a Megathron it's either going to be parking up and blasting you stationnary, or at most keeping ~100 m/sec transversal as anymore screws up it's own hit chance... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.07 21:49:00 - [1389] Amarr just really need a way to actually dictate the range of a conflict, so that their increased optimal benefits for more than 2-3 volleys. As it is now, a battleship can MWD up to you quite quickly if you're not using an MWD. If the Amarr ship was using an MWD, well it'd be outa cap in little to no time.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.07 22:24:00 - [1390] Lets forget for a minute about abaddon vs megethorn. All 4 reces have stealth bombers All stealth bombers use cruise missiles Only 2 races (caldary\minmtar) use cruises for other ships Is there any way to rebalance amarr\gallente SB? Some ideas: 1) Remove cruise bonuses and replace them with bomb bonuses. (and missile bombardment lvl 5 reqs for bomblauncher) For example: -10% per lvl to bomb sugnature, +10% per lvl to bomb armor, +5% to explosion range etc. 2) Use Heavy Hybrids\Lasers instead Cruises Any ideas of bonuses\drawbacks?

Andreask14 Alterum - Infinitus - Fabula Dragons Of Oceans	Posted - 2008.01.07 22:35:00 - [1391] Originally by: Dillius Archania Amarr just really need a way to actually dictate the range of a conflict, so that their increased optimal benefits for more than 2-3 volleys. As it is now, a battleship can MWD up to you quite quickly if you're not using an MWD. If the Amarr ship was using an MWD, well it'd be outa cap in little to no time. This. Also, using a MWD reduces your available ammunition by 25%, a drawback only amarrians suffer from. Furthermore, dont tell me ever again that not chewing through ammos is a plus of the amar when you always have to bring the most expensive t2 ammo of all races to a fleet fight,while having to transport millions worth of shots at a time, and when one of your short range t2 ammos is rendered useless (conflag).
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.08 04:25:00 - [1392] Originally by: Andreask14 Originally by: Dillius Archania Amarr just really need a way to actually dictate the range of a conflict, so that their increased optimal benefits for more than 2-3 volleys. As it is now, a battleship can MWD up to you quite quickly if you're not using an MWD. If the Amarr ship was using an MWD, well it'd be outa cap in little to no time. This. Also, using a MWD reduces your available ammunition by 25%, a drawback only amarrians suffer from. Furthermore, dont tell me ever again that not chewing through ammos is a plus of the amar when you always have to bring the most expensive t2 ammo of all races to a fleet fight,while having to transport millions worth of shots at a time, and when one of your short range t2 ammos is rendered useless (conflag). gleam is even more useless. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.08 06:35:00 - [1393] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Andreask14 Originally by: Dillius Archania Amarr just really need a way to actually dictate the range of a conflict, so that their increased optimal benefits for more than 2-3 volleys. As it is now, a battleship can MWD up to you quite quickly if you're not using an MWD. If the Amarr ship was using an MWD, well it'd be outa cap in little to no time. This. Also, using a MWD reduces your available ammunition by 25%, a drawback only amarrians suffer from. Furthermore, dont tell me ever again that not chewing through ammos is a plus of the amar when you always have to bring the most expensive t2 ammo of all races to a fleet fight,while having to transport millions worth of shots at a time, and when one of your short range t2 ammos is rendered useless (conflag). gleam is even more useless. Not as useless as Amarr! Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Ash'el Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.01.08 06:46:00 - [1394] Lasers use ammo. It's called cap. When Amarr ships lose ammo(cap), their toast, when other races weapons lose ammo, they reload and keep firing. Granted, Gallente use cap also to use their hybrids, but they use no where near as much cap as Amarr uses, and hybrid cap usage is balanced with the DPS those things can generate. I guess cap boosters are a source of ammo (cap) for Amarr, but they use our very limited mid slots to do so. Other races can use their cap boosters to provide cap to non-weapon systems such as MWD etc, where as Amarr need boosters just to keep firing their lasers let alone using it for other things.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.08 08:19:00 - [1395] Myphs and legends about amarr race: Legend about laser balance Laser use 300% of blasters cap, but have unlimited ammo and ability to switch crys allmost instant - looks like fair balance for weapon system. Thats how all non-amarr players thinks. But when it comes to t2/faction ammo - its actualy has shoting limits. And you cannot split navy cry for small parts, like any other ammo - you must carry 20-30kk no matter of situation. You cannot sell partially used cry, you cannot stack them. You cant even monitor remaining chardges without calculator. And when it comes to instant reloading - old jamming bug apears. It is OLDEST known eve bug, that can be easily fixed. But for unknown reasons it still exists. CCP realy "loves" their subscribers:( 2) Myph about cap balance Ok, lasers use cap, but amarr ships have many capcitor. Amarrs BS for example, have 1 cap/s better caprech. But 1 megapulse II use 5,3 cap/s (8 megapulses - 42,3 cap/s - without any heatsink). So better caprech has some advantage only for amarr BS with AC\arty\missiles setups.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.08 09:04:00 - [1396] Originally by: PeacefullNub Myphs and legends about amarr race: Legend about laser balance Laser use 300% of blasters cap, but have unlimited ammo and ability to switch crys allmost instant - looks like fair balance for weapon system. Thats how all non-amarr players thinks. But when it comes to t2/faction ammo - its actualy has shoting limits. And you cannot split navy cry for small parts, like any other ammo - you must carry 20-30kk no matter of situation. You cannot sell partially used cry, you cannot stack them. You cant even monitor remaining chardges without calculator. And when it comes to instant reloading - old jamming bug apears. It is OLDEST known eve bug, that can be easily fixed. But for unknown reasons it still exists. CCP realy "loves" their subscribers:( 2) Myph about cap balance Ok, lasers use cap, but amarr ships have many capcitor. Amarrs BS for example, have 1 cap/s better caprech. But 1 megapulse II use 5,3 cap/s (8 megapulses - 42,3 cap/s - without any heatsink). So better caprech has some advantage only for amarr BS with AC\arty\missiles setups. Yeah, we are the cap and ammo gimped race allthough it should be the opposite. Its quite funny and also sad. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.08 09:26:00 - [1397] Originally by: PeacefullNub Lets forget for a minute about abaddon vs megethorn. All 4 reces have stealth bombers All stealth bombers use cruise missiles Only 2 races (caldary\minmtar) use cruises for other ships Is there any way to rebalance amarr\gallente SB? Some ideas: 1) Remove cruise bonuses and replace them with bomb bonuses. (and missile bombardment lvl 5 reqs for bomblauncher) For example: -10% per lvl to bomb sugnature, +10% per lvl to bomb armor, +5% to explosion range etc. 2) Use Heavy Hybrids\Lasers instead Cruises Any ideas of bonuses\drawbacks? The Stealth bombers are fine, imo. Most Amarr ships have 1 missile hardpoint so I guess most amarrians have trained missiles to a certain level anyway. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Wyliee Taurus Inc	Posted - 2008.01.08 09:45:00 - [1398] Edited by: Wyliee on 08/01/2008 09:45:51 Originally by: SkyCraneThe Stealth bombers are fine, imo. Most Amarr ships have 1 missile hardpoint so I guess most amarrians have trained missiles to a certain level anyway.[/quote LOLs! Dream on. up till very recently no amarr ships got missle bonuses, why the hell would we wanna train to use low dps missles on gunnery bounus ships? im sure i am typical of amarr pilots, i have 8mil in gunnery and 8000 in missles, and im not gonna bother to train missles anytime soon, ill be switching to gal to make good use of the skills i already have. wylie/
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.08 11:12:00 - [1399] Edited by: SkyCrane on 08/01/2008 11:12:32 Originally by: Wyliee LOLs! Dream on. up till very recently no amarr ships got missle bonuses, why the hell would we wanna train to use low dps missles on gunnery bounus ships? im sure i am typical of amarr pilots, i have 8mil in gunnery and 8000 in missles, and im not gonna bother to train missles anytime soon, ill be switching to gal to make good use of the skills i already have. wylie/[/quote LOL's You have trained it yourself!! stop trolling... ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Paeniteo	Posted - 2008.01.08 11:28:00 - [1400] Edited by: Paeniteo on 08/01/2008 11:29:12 Who cares about stealth bombers. The immediate problem lies in lasers having too many disadvantages and very few advantages, along with the laser capacitor use reduction ship bonus. The majority of our problems would vanish if these issues alone were addressed. Focus on the major issues or this whole thread will just come across as nitpicking and nobody is going to take it seriously.

Toxic Waster	Posted - 2008.01.08 14:24:00 - [1401] signed
Kaimon ValDreth	Posted - 2008.01.08 16:09:00 - [1402] My god this is getting out of hand... 50 pages long Id like to see CCP ignore this! I only fly minny ships anyway however this has been a problem for quite some time. /SIGNED
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.08 20:44:00 - [1403] Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth My god this is getting out of hand... 50 pages long Id like to see CCP ignore this! I only fly minny ships anyway however this has been a problem for quite some time. /SIGNED Didn't the last Amarr Thread get to 100 pages before being locked- and never getting a dev response, either direct or indirect? I do not hold out high hopes for this thread. ------ Originally by: CCP Prism X There's no such thing as playing too much EvE! You all obviously need more accounts!
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2008.01.08 20:47:00 - [1404] Looks like they either delusional and think that Amarr are perfectly fine, or they simply don't know how to fix lasers without unbalancing the other races. Both is sad tbh.
Archa Caldari Chickens with an Attitude	Posted - 2008.01.08 22:37:00 - [1405] its really sad that they just don't know what to do with amarr... and a dev response would be welcome i suppose...
Rigo Kajjar Rigo Reloaded	Posted - 2008.01.08 23:27:00 - [1406] Originally by: Patch86 Didn't the last Amarr Thread get to 100 pages before being locked- and never getting a dev response, either direct or indirect? I do not hold out high hopes for this thread. Yup, 101 pages: link
Felysta Sandorn System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.08 23:53:00 - [1407] Originally by: Rigo Kajjar Originally by: Patch86 Didn't the last Amarr Thread get to 100 pages before being locked- and never getting a dev response, either direct or indirect? I do not hold out high hopes for this thread. Yup, 101 pages: link There are no other issues in game that even compare to the lack of oomph Amarr ships and weapons have... Surely it's obvious after one 100 page thread and another 50 page thread on the same topic, with other topics springing up weekly about the same thing, that SOMETHING IS SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH AMARR SHIPS AND WEAPONS. The devs have said in the past (like in the latest live dev blog for example) that Amarr may get a minor tweak, but they have to realise that a minor tweak isn't good enough to bring Amarr in-line with other races. AMARR NEED MAJOR WORK. This topic and it's predecessor are proof of that. So many good suggestions have been offered by different people, and all the anti-Amarr mob can come up with are pointless arguments about the Dominix setup I posted for example. They still fail to respond to the true issues at hand, other than saying "Uh, well cap is the Amarr ammo..." Yeah, but when we have so little of it and need so much of it, the fact that lasers don't need to reload is actually a nerf, not a buff. I'd happily trade in my 8 Amarr Navy Multifrequency L for 3000 rounds of ammo. And what the heck is with the new Amarr ship prices? The Paladin is 200mil more than all teh other Marauders, and the Redeemer is 100mil more than other BOps BS. Great way of balancing the minerals there, devs, you really put your head in to those! Speaking of the ships themselves anyway... I was trying to fit a Paladin... I figured out a nice setup for it that could tank near 1500 DPS, and cost 1.5bil ISK to build. It could also do 600 DPS... That's less than my alt's gank Brutix... I could buy 30 gank Brutix's and insure them all for the price of one Paladin, and I think I know which would win in a fight... I've always had two account in EVE... Last Summer I got a third. They all went inactive over Christmas, and now this is the only one that's been reactivated. I'm going to reactivate another to train some minor skills and sell the character, but then I'll be down to 1 account again, which will be on every other month until Amarr are fixed. Maybe the $30 less per month that CCP get from me will make a difference, probably not though. Do something, and soon... It's just getting ridiculous now... Latest Video, Click Here!
burek Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.01.09 00:01:00 - [1408] Having recently cross trained to amarr (real easy when you've been speccing for minmatar for over 2 years), I have to say the two ships I've been flying, sacrilege and absolution are quiet uber. Can't wait to try the geddon/abaddon. And tbh, I can't really see the problems mentioned here with lasers, when using the absolution. There's always plenty of cap, superb tank and a ** ton of damage. What am I missing? About the small t1 ships... who gives a really? All races have more **ty ships than good ones. With any race you'd end up flying just a handful of ships, just like with amarr. My apologies, if you don't agree, but from limited experience, amarr t2 lineup is quiet uber.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.09 00:03:00 - [1409] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Originally by: Rigo Kajjar Originally by: Patch86 Didn't the last Amarr Thread get to 100 pages before being locked- and never getting a dev response, either direct or indirect? I do not hold out high hopes for this thread. Yup, 101 pages: link There are no other issues in game that even compare to the lack of oomph Amarr ships and weapons have... Surely it's obvious after one 100 page thread and another 50 page thread on the same topic, with other topics springing up weekly about the same thing, that SOMETHING IS SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH AMARR SHIPS AND WEAPONS. The devs have said in the past (like in the latest live dev blog for example) that Amarr may get a minor tweak, but they have to realise that a minor tweak isn't good enough to bring Amarr in-line with other races. AMARR NEED MAJOR WORK. This topic and it's predecessor are proof of that. So many good suggestions have been offered by different people, and all the anti-Amarr mob can come up with are pointless arguments about the Dominix setup I posted for example. They still fail to respond to the true issues at hand, other than saying "Uh, well cap is the Amarr ammo..." Yeah, but when we have so little of it and need so much of it, the fact that lasers don't need to reload is actually a nerf, not a buff. I'd happily trade in my 8 Amarr Navy Multifrequency L for 3000 rounds of ammo. And what the heck is with the new Amarr ship prices? The Paladin is 200mil more than all teh other Marauders, and the Redeemer is 100mil more than other BOps BS. Great way of balancing the minerals there, devs, you really put your head in to those! Speaking of the ships themselves anyway... I was trying to fit a Paladin... I figured out a nice setup for it that could tank near 1500 DPS, and cost 1.5bil ISK to build. It could also do 600 DPS... That's less than my alt's gank Brutix... I could buy 30 gank Brutix's and insure them all for the price of one Paladin, and I think I know which would win in a fight... I've always had two account in EVE... Last Summer I got a third. They all went inactive over Christmas, and now this is the only one that's been reactivated. I'm going to reactivate another to train some minor skills and sell the character, but then I'll be down to 1 account again, which will be on every other month until Amarr are fixed. Maybe the $30 less per month that CCP get from me will make a difference, probably not though. Do something, and soon... It's just getting ridiculous now... A STRONG reccomendation to new eve players - DO NOT FLY AMARR. It is going to be at least 1-2 years before CCP even do something with Amarr. It has taken them a year to admit that there is problems with Amarr. A Year ago they said they were looking at Amarr and all they did was indirect nerfs on Amarr. They still have no had that meeting so far to balance the race with others. So if you want to wait 2 years - then fly Amarr. Otherwise dont bother. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
TigerWoman	Posted - 2008.01.09 00:43:00 - [1410] amarr ships have some probs but the mayor probs are sub harbinger t1 class and the apoc. the geddon and the baddon are quite nice but only if you are close to station/supply point for repairs and new cap charges(or you dont need to be fast travelin at all). but the biggest problem is that the midrange pro is not rly usable due to current game mechanics (they land on your head/close the distance within a short time/or are to far away). on sub bc the range benefit doesnt count and the tank benefit does not either, since all ships sub bc live due to speed or ewar and both do not rly apply to amarr. add a huge chunk of crystals to be carried with you (much isk in your ship cargo) add the smallest cargo for cap charges add the ships which are a pain to fit (any sniper or dual rep mwd setups<- i never use them, more into plated tanks, but the speed problems get even harder with that). add the ******** wasted bonus. devs know there is something wrong with amarr, but the seem to have no solution for it ( since between the dev blog stating it and now it like 9 months?!). but on the other hand its hard to find a bonus which would not overpower amarr. an optimal bonus would make pulse longrange and beams quite op. a tracking bonus would make beams to good (could work with t2 pulse ammo though) a cap recharge bonus would make the ac "versions" of amarr ships to tank beasts. but on the other hand. if the devs know about the problem (what they do - dev blog a year ago) they are either doing a crappy job and need to be fired or have something in mind which cooperates with other "soon coming" changes. i would say that "boost patch" should rly deal with amarr or the devs will have some problems in explaining why they cannot solve a problem known for longer then a year. i cannot go to my company and say oh sorry i fail and keep my job.... i do grant the devs time though since they have rough times with new ships the trinity stuff... but sometime the time is just up. and btw: it is not the players task to make the game, when we point out why certain things do not work it should be enough for the devs (since we pay to play). the task to bring up solutions is up to the game developer not the player base. we can only adress issues. so if you get a constructive post clearly aiming at and explaining certain problems it is your taks to fix it. i cannot wait for a customer to bring up a solution for the thing i mess up to change it. since you allrdy admitted that there is something wrong it is about time to get the job done. regards tigerw

Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.09 04:21:00 - [1411] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 09/01/2008 04:21:17 Originally by: TigerWoman amarr ships have some probs but the mayor probs are sub harbinger t1 class and the apoc. the geddon and the baddon are quite nice but only if you are close to station/supply point for repairs and new cap charges(or you dont need to be fast travelin at all). but the biggest problem is that the midrange pro is not rly usable due to current game mechanics (they land on your head/close the distance within a short time/or are to far away). on sub bc the range benefit doesnt count and the tank benefit does not either, since all ships sub bc live due to speed or ewar and both do not rly apply to amarr. add a huge chunk of crystals to be carried with you (much isk in your ship cargo) add the smallest cargo for cap charges add the ships which are a pain to fit (any sniper or dual rep mwd setups<- i never use them, more into plated tanks, but the speed problems get even harder with that). add the ******** wasted bonus. devs know there is something wrong with amarr, but the seem to have no solution for it ( since between the dev blog stating it and now it like 9 months?!). but on the other hand its hard to find a bonus which would not overpower amarr. an optimal bonus would make pulse longrange and beams quite op. a tracking bonus would make beams to good (could work with t2 pulse ammo though) a cap recharge bonus would make the ac "versions" of amarr ships to tank beasts. but on the other hand. if the devs know about the problem (what they do - dev blog a year ago) they are either doing a crappy job and need to be fired or have something in mind which cooperates with other "soon coming" changes. i would say that "boost patch" should rly deal with amarr or the devs will have some problems in explaining why they cannot solve a problem known for longer then a year. i cannot go to my company and say oh sorry i fail and keep my job.... i do grant the devs time though since they have rough times with new ships the trinity stuff... but sometime the time is just up. and btw: it is not the players task to make the game, when we point out why certain things do not work it should be enough for the devs (since we pay to play). the task to bring up solutions is up to the game developer not the player base. we can only adress issues. so if you get a constructive post clearly aiming at and explaining certain problems it is your taks to fix it. i cannot wait for a customer to bring up a solution for the thing i mess up to change it. since you allrdy admitted that there is something wrong it is about time to get the job done. regards tigerw No Zulu basically said "There is nothing wrong with the race itself so we just gonna fix obvious failed ships like omen only" Wich is utter bullzhit. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
xxOutlawxx	Posted - 2008.01.09 05:09:00 - [1412] Fely I miss you!
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.09 10:37:00 - [1413] Originally by: burek Having recently cross trained to amarr (real easy when you've been speccing for minmatar for over 2 years), I have to say the two ships I've been flying, sacrilege and absolution are quiet uber. Can't wait to try the geddon/abaddon. Thats becouse you have no need to play amarr from the start - when your skills are low. As many pps said - amarrs are relativly fine at high skill levels. I think when you will use abaddon and realise that it cant fire more than 2 minutes (with all your perfect skills) without capbooster, you will understand why abaddon/apoc projektile setups are common. Originally by: burek And tbh, I can't really see the problems mentioned here with lasers, when using the absolution. There's always plenty of cap, superb tank and a ** ton of damage. What am I missing? Youre correct, Abso is 1 of best amarr ships (2 damage bonuses + tank bonus) and it has no big cap problems (at least it can fire all turrets without capbuster, unlike many amarr ships). But it isnt something that you can fly at first half year in game. Sacre is allso great. But you see - it is great for you. Minmatars train missiles from the start, unlike amarrs. Originally by:** burek About the small t1 ships... who gives a ** really? All races have more **ty ships than good ones. With any race you'd end up flying just a handful of ships, just like with amarr. I disagree. Race strenght is not just 1-2 good ships, but all good ships vs bad ones. Even good t1 frigs are usefull (see how many rifters and kestrels in game), when you decided to play amarr from the start. Same problem with all t1 cruisers. Arbi is awesome ship (compared to other amarr cruisers), but its DRONEboat - you need 2kk sp in drones to use it properly (amarr newbis have pathetic droneskills). Omen and maller have cap and fitting problems (of course you dont see them when you have high lvl skills).
Lord Bastian	Posted - 2008.01.09 11:31:00 - [1414] I am starting to get seriously ****ed off, the Devs are either clueless or just dont care about 16% of the pilots in EVE. I spoke with a DEV in help chat one morning, or at least i think it was a DEV he had the dark blue type. Anyway so i vented my frustrations about Amarr to which his reply was "Amarr are fine ive fought plenty of Amarr and there very good ships" So i said but do you fly Amarr? to which there was no reply. .......sigh /signed x2
British Bulldog Amarr 4gone Conclusion	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:36:00 - [1415] Just how can devs ignore this?! We've already had 101 page discussion to no avail. For over 2 years they have continued to nerf Amarr. Other players in other races are even signing up to this petition. 16% of players are only Amarr and proabably half that actually use Amarr ships! Are they THAT BLIND or ignorant to ask why so few are playing using Amarr ships?! Amarr IS broken so do something about it please. For God's sake at least give a response! Keeping quiet only proves you don't care. If nothing is done I'm wondering just how many people will just not bother to renew their subscription. I'm a 4 year old player and seriously thinking why I should be paying to have a disadvantage!
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.09 14:56:00 - [1416] Ever made a player that has 18 Charisma? Other than a 1 trick pony - 18 charisma means your charater is gimped. The same is with Amarr - if you have just started eve - Delete your amarr char and remake. Amarr is a Joke atm and other than a Caldari Sacrledge (which required Amarr Cruiser to fly), and the Absolution WITHOUT beams, the rest of Amarr is a compleate joke. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Rosa Rosette	Posted - 2008.01.09 15:00:00 - [1417] ibp50
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.09 15:57:00 - [1418] Originally by: British Bulldog Just how can devs ignore this?! We've already had 101 page discussion to no avail. For over 2 years they have continued to nerf Amarr. Other players in other races are even signing up to this petition. 16% of players are only Amarr and proabably half that actually use Amarr ships! Are they THAT BLIND or ignorant to ask why so few are playing using Amarr ships?! Amarr IS broken so do something about it please. For God's sake at least give a response! Keeping quiet only proves you don't care. If nothing is done I'm wondering just how many people will just not bother to renew their subscription. I'm a 4 year old player and seriously thinking why I should be paying to have a disadvantage! Why fix us? We got the best role: Enemy morale booster role. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Ruciza Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.09 16:00:00 - [1419] Edited by: Ruciza on 09/01/2008 16:04:12 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No Zulu basically said "There is nothing wrong with the race itself so we just gonna fix obvious failed ships like omen only" Wich is utter bullzhit. In your (hopefully very humble) opinion. Your lack of imagination is not Zulu's fault. CCP has created a fine balance here. The only thing they could be accused of is that they made it a little bit too complicated for some. The "oomph" will probably be a big sign: "Look this is how to fly Amarr." No medium range combat, what utter noobishness. All combat is medium ranged or can be turned into medium range with tactics.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.09 16:19:00 - [1420] Originally by: Ruciza Edited by: Ruciza on 09/01/2008 16:04:12 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No Zulu basically said "There is nothing wrong with the race itself so we just gonna fix obvious failed ships like omen only" Wich is utter bullzhit. In your (hopefully very humble) opinion. Your lack of imagination is not Zulu's fault. CCP has created a fine balance here. The only thing they could be accused of is that they made it a little bit too complicated for some. The "oomph" will probably be a big sign: "Look this is how to fly Amarr." No medium range combat, what utter noobishness. All combat is medium ranged or can be turned into medium range with tactics. Oh please dont give me that crap. Ships that have laser cap bonus (wich is the amarr bonus) that put ACs on instead and perform better by ignoring a ship bonus IS BROKEN. Yeah it is broken and if you do not understand that ccp has overpowered ships to make em work with these faulty weapons then you have no clue about the evolution of amarr through the patches. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice

Slippery Nipple Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.01.09 16:30:00 - [1421] Originally by: Ruciza All combat is medium ranged or can be turned into medium range with tactics. Really? Then enlighten us will you?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.09 16:37:00 - [1422] Originally by: Slippery Nipple Originally by: Ruciza All combat is medium ranged or can be turned into medium range with tactics. Really? Then enlighten us will you? He cant because there are no T3 disruptors with 30-40km range. He failed miserably. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.09 16:37:00 - [1423] Originally by: Slippery Nipple Originally by: Ruciza All combat is medium ranged or can be turned into medium range with tactics. Really? Then enlighten us will you? Ruciza is probebly a NPCer who thinks pvp players orbit at 50km without a scram. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
nihlanth	Posted - 2008.01.09 16:46:00 - [1424] Edited by: nihlanth on 09/01/2008 16:50:02 Edited by: nihlanth on 09/01/2008 16:47:30 Why don't they just add long range disruptors (cruiser-battle-cruiser- battleship size) that use more cap already? (High slot module)
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.09 16:52:00 - [1425] Originally by: nihlanth Edited by: nihlanth on 09/01/2008 16:50:02 Edited by: nihlanth on 09/01/2008 16:47:30 Why don't they just add long range disruptors (cruiser-battle-cruiser- battleship size) that use more cap already? (High slot module) Because simple things that would make mid range combat viable, like 40km webs and disrupters, and default uncloak distancce toa gate being 30-40km insted of 15, would make Gallente PWNmobiles actually die vs amarr. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.09 16:56:00 - [1426] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: nihlanth Edited by: nihlanth on 09/01/2008 16:50:02 Edited by: nihlanth on 09/01/2008 16:47:30 Why don't they just add long range disruptors (cruiser-battle-cruiser- battleship size) that use more cap already? (High slot module) Because simple things that would make mid range combat viable, like 40km webs and disrupters, and default uncloak distancce toa gate being 30-40km insted of 15, would make Gallente PWNmobiles actually die vs amarr. uhm, what about the Gallente Recons then? They'll get an obscene scramrange... ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.09 16:59:00 - [1427] Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: nihlanth Edited by: nihlanth on 09/01/2008 16:50:02 Edited by: nihlanth on 09/01/2008 16:47:30 Why don't they just add long range disruptors (cruiser-battle-cruiser- battleship size) that use more cap already? (High slot module) Because simple things that would make mid range combat viable, like 40km webs and disrupters, and default uncloak distancce toa gate being 30-40km insted of 15, would make Gallente PWNmobiles actually die vs amarr. uhm, what about the Gallente Recons then? They'll get an obscene scramrange... I wouldnt care if gallente recons could scram at Bs sniper range if I get to fit a 40km scram on my amarr ships. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.09 17:06:00 - [1428] Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: nihlanth Edited by: nihlanth on 09/01/2008 16:50:02 Edited by: nihlanth on 09/01/2008 16:47:30 Why don't they just add long range disruptors (cruiser-battle-cruiser- battleship size) that use more cap already? (High slot module) Because simple things that would make mid range combat viable, like 40km webs and disrupters, and default uncloak distancce toa gate being 30-40km insted of 15, would make Gallente PWNmobiles actually die vs amarr. uhm, what about the Gallente Recons then? They'll get an obscene scramrange... I am happy with gallente getting a scrambler range for anti-snipers. Why? Because it means that there will be battles going on at short range, At long range and also at mid range due to Amarr being able to scram at mid range. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.09 19:00:00 - [1429] Maybe some long range web (3 size of it for frigs\cruisers and bs) that not reduce enemy speed but only removes (or gives penality) MWD\AB trust bonus on their ships? And i suggest it must use low slot - so amarr ships with 1-2 mids have some use.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.10 01:12:00 - [1430] Originally by: PeacefullNub Maybe some long range web (3 size of it for frigs\cruisers and bs) that not reduce enemy speed but only removes (or gives penality) MWD\AB trust bonus on their ships? And i suggest it must use low slot - so amarr ships with 1-2 mids have some use. To be honest, I think that all Scrams should be able to shut down MWD. This would also remove all nanoships in eve which Amarr havent a hope in hell of tracking. Nanoships can do what they want to move about fast, but a nanoship would becoem useless for tackling within scram range. This would also have a side effect of removing MWD from ship setups as the most important module (some ships have no guns but have mwd!) Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)

Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2008.01.10 01:24:00 - [1431] Edited by: Anacrit Mc''Sinister on 10/01/2008 01:26:03 Good news! after a couple month of extra training for a the only misile boat i-amar have, i have tryed it out. yes. new sacrelige rocks like nothing elce in amar. its is sn unbelivably easey fit ( compair to most other amar things) Huray. unfortunaly i will now have an other month of misile skills to train ( to make it the best thing in the world) and then i will only be able to use those skils on 1 ship. sacrelige. that kined of dampns my hapines. if only we could have moller with misiles, or any other t1 ship. or maybe a batlecruiser? anyway - i am strting to loose fath in this thread. maybe we can have a new one - Amar self help! hello - im an amar pilot.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.01.10 01:25:00 - [1432] 40km webs and scramblers? Scramblers shutting down MWD's?... you guys don't want much do you... Mid range combat isn't about flying solo. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2008.01.10 01:28:00 - [1433] ah gabriel is back, that expert on amar who doesnt fly any amar ships.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.10 01:31:00 - [1434] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 01:32:38 Originally by: Gabriel Karade 40km webs and scramblers? Scramblers shutting down MWD's?... you guys don't want much do you... Mid range combat isn't about flying solo. Mid range combat currently is almost entirely some guy shooting a npc rat 50km away thinking that is pvp. Mid range combat is also the rare occasions where some close range people are flying past you to take on long range people. The guy shooting and missing a lot due to crappy trackng on hitting nanoships zooming past is "Amarr mid range combat". Tell me what this "mid range combat" is? Tell us how you scramble someone at 50km as well as how he got there from gate, where you should be 15km away? And before you say bubbles, only a idiot gang leader would take long range pilots and put them into "mid range" setup. So be real here, where is this magical mid range combat you talk about? I looked at every pro pvper alliance/corp kilboard. NOT 1 of them had mid range style setups. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.01.10 01:45:00 - [1435] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 10/01/2008 01:52:29 Originally by: Anacrit Mc'Sinister ah gabriel is back, that expert on amar who doesnt fly any amar ships. Oh look it's the guy who thinks removing a mid-slot from every other ship would be a fine act of game balancing... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.01.10 01:52:00 - [1436] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 01:32:38 Originally by: Gabriel Karade 40km webs and scramblers? Scramblers shutting down MWD's?... you guys don't want much do you... Mid range combat isn't about flying solo. Mid range combat currently is almost entirely some guy shooting a npc rat 50km away thinking that is pvp. Mid range combat is also the rare occasions where some close range people are flying past you to take on long range people. The guy shooting and missing a lot due to crappy trackng on hitting nanoships zooming past is "Amarr mid range combat". Tell me what this "mid range combat" is? Tell us how you scramble someone at 50km as well as how he got there from gate, where you should be 15km away? And before you say bubbles, only a idiot gang leader would take long range pilots and put them into "mid range" setup. So be real here, where is this magical mid range combat you talk about? I looked at every pro pvper alliance/corp kilboard. NOT 1 of them had mid range style setups. Mid range combat is shooting 15-30km in a small gang situation round a gate/station, there's nothing magical about it. I'm not going to trawl killboards looking for Pulse Armageddons on kills (I seriously doubt you have either) besides, pilots who use them effectively have already posted in this thread. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Galmar Grief Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.01.10 01:59:00 - [1437] I had an amarr specced char for about two years, got rid of it in the end simply due to how pathetic the DPS was in comparison to even 1/2 month old caldari/gallente chars I had. Whils Amarr had some redeeming features (Curse, Pilgrim, Arbitrator and yes... the no ammo use thing was nice, and lasers just look & sound f**king cool) for PvP they were gimped as hell. Whilst I miss the pretty ships and the light show that ensues when the guns start firing, I'm very glad I ditched the char, a fantastically pretty race, just worthless as hell in PvP /PvE (vs anything non blood/sansha). - - - UI Suggestion for Missiles - Can we please turn the damn things off / disable the shake?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.10 04:06:00 - [1438] Originally by: Gabriel Karade 40km webs and scramblers? Scramblers shutting down MWD's?... you guys don't want much do you... Mid range combat isn't about flying solo. Even in mid range fleet battles its frustrating because you use mid range but no one else does and the target your shooting at is either too close or its out of scram range. So yeah its not that great even non solo. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.01.10 06:46:00 - [1439] Bump.
Vikarion Caldari United Heavens	Posted - 2008.01.10 08:50:00 - [1440] I have to agree with what is in this thread. I'm a Caldari pilot, but I decided to try a little cross-training to Amarr. Ugh. Amarr ships are ok, but frankly, lasers suck. Really suck. When CCP fixes lasers, I'll train up Amarr weaponry. Until then...frankly, I just can't justify it with any cost/benefit analysis. Any other weapon system is better...period. I use CrumpleCorn(tm) Sigs, because they (and he) are awesome!

PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.10 09:18:00 - [1441] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Mid range combat is shooting 15-30km in a small gang situation round a gate/station, there's nothing magical about it. I'm not going to trawl killboards looking for Pulse Armageddons on kills (I seriously doubt you have either) besides, pilots who use them effectively have already posted in this thread. I think you dont understand what we are talking about. 1) Solo Mid range exists (gatechamps only, not even station camps) but solo mid range combat isnt. There is no way to hold enemy at 15-50km. 2) Gatechamps 2-10 BS+recons+taklers vs 1-2 incoming BS - isnt fair fight. I wounder how ppls allways try to use this "mid range" argument? Its allways gang vs solo\duo fights, when gang has all advantages, when enemy is outnumbered and lagging. Or is it ballanace that minimum 2 amarr ships (at least BS+takler) need to kill 1 enemy BS? 3) Gatechamps gang vs gang has no mid range. Simply too many ships for recons and taklers to hold, and enemy allso has antisuport units. So finaly its close range, when amarrs are weak.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.01.10 10:00:00 - [1442] The latter situation is exactly where the mid-range Megapulse shines. A Megathron has to haul itself from target to target, doing 0 dps for a significant period, the Armageddon or Abaddon just sits there hitting the primary from t=0 until the fight is over. It doesn't matter if the Pulse boat gets webbed by a tackler, it's still hitting it's target, a webbed Megathron is out of the fight until it takes out the tackler itself or the gang's support does so. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Thoruos	Posted - 2008.01.10 10:34:00 - [1443] hiho, atm im a 12 mil sp caldari char but dont like the way of pvp as caldari (specially the shield tank in pvp). im now thinking about crossing to another race. fotm seems to be deimos or vaga. but i really like the looks of the amarr ships. i have decent armor tankin skills and as caldari missiles for sacrilege arent a problem, but tbh i would prefer lasers since i just think they look awesome and a scifi-ship just needs lasers. the basic question is now seriously: are amarr ok to pvp in or is it really just a pain in the a**? (i wouldnt have the drawbacks and problems a new char has since my fitting and cap skills are already up) ps: dont want to hijack the thread and hope this is not regarded trolling but making another amarr thread just for this question seemed a little bit overdone, since already some are not so happy with the amount of amarr threads.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.10 10:48:00 - [1444] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 01:32:38 Originally by: Gabriel Karade 40km webs and scramblers? Scramblers shutting down MWD's?... you guys don't want much do you... Mid range combat isn't about flying solo. Mid range combat currently is almost entirely some guy shooting a npc rat 50km away thinking that is pvp. Mid range combat is also the rare occasions where some close range people are flying past you to take on long range people. The guy shooting and missing a lot due to crappy trackng on hitting nanoships zooming past is "Amarr mid range combat". Tell me what this "mid range combat" is? Tell us how you scramble someone at 50km as well as how he got there from gate, where you should be 15km away? And before you say bubbles, only a idiot gang leader would take long range pilots and put them into "mid range" setup. So be real here, where is this magical mid range combat you talk about? I looked at every pro pvper alliance/corp kilboard. NOT 1 of them had mid range style setups. Mid range combat is shooting 15-30km in a small gang situation round a gate/station, there's nothing magical about it. I'm not going to trawl killboards looking for Pulse Armageddons on kills (I seriously doubt you have either) besides, pilots who use them effectively have already posted in this thread. I trawed killboards and could not find a SINGLE mid range setup unless it was a clown alliance. I looked at MC, BoB, AAA and other quality PvP outfits. No midrange setups at all. And people use long range ships with short range ammo to do the "mid range" as you call it. Thats whay the top pvpers mentioned above do as I am looking at their ammo in ships etc. Why should they bother mid range when long range covers that just fine for the once in the lifetime occasion someone is 50km away, orbiting without a scram like a NPC Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.10 10:51:00 - [1445] Originally by: Gabriel Karade The latter situation is exactly where the mid-range Megapulse shines. A Megathron has to haul itself from target to target, doing 0 dps for a significant period, the Armageddon or Abaddon just sits there hitting the primary from t=0 until the fight is over. It doesn't matter if the Pulse boat gets webbed by a tackler, it's still hitting it's target, a webbed Megathron is out of the fight until it takes out the tackler itself or the gang's support does so. Sorry - only clown pvpers do that. Top pvpers use long range ships with short range high damage ammo + drones, and rely on short range ships to hold targets down. But then again, I guess you only fight NPC's who orbit gate at 50km Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.10 11:29:00 - [1446] Edited by: PeacefullNub on 10/01/2008 11:41:09 Originally by: Gabriel Karade The latter situation is exactly where the mid-range Megapulse shines. 15km gate decloacking range is nothing for any ship with MWD - mega will be near abaddon before they targeted each other. Thats a reason why long range snipers +ceptors are used instead "mid range" abaddons. They have greater range, allmost same dps, and if things getting realy bad - snipers and ceptors have ability to escape. I cant imagine situations when megapulse boat can be better than any close range boat or sniper. This is what many ppls called "amarr problem" - no role in game.
Felysta Sandorn System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.10 12:46:00 - [1447] 50 Pages and people say there's no problem! Latest Video, Click Here!
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.10 13:04:00 - [1448] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 13:04:47 Quick recap of last 50 pages New Amarr players and also any players with 18+ charisma - REMAKE your char unless you know what you are doing. Also for experienced players, Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.10 13:19:00 - [1449] I expect the next Amarr fix will be a Sacrilege nerf. That ships is just too easy to fit out and does far too much damage do be an Amarr ship. Peacefullnub: People seem to think Amarrs role in this game is POS takedowns... Which truly is pathetic and annoying and is as good as no role imo. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Yiang Wang Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.10 13:37:00 - [1450] Respectfully /signed.

Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2008.01.10 13:38:00 - [1451] I am in the Epic thread. ~Nyron Originally by: Minerva Vulcan But poor victimized Ulf...I weep lavender scented tears for you.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.10 14:08:00 - [1452] Originally by: SkyCrane I expect the next Amarr fix will be a Sacrilege nerf. That ships is just too easy to fit out and does far too much damage do be an Amarr ship. Peacefullnub: People seem to think Amarrs role in this game is POS takedowns... Which truly is pathetic and annoying and is as good as no role imo. Yep. Sacri was designed with Lasers in mind, and hence has good fitting now they changed it to lasers. Same with Nightmare. They got 4 lasers with 100% bonus, but grid never got nerfed. And nightmare is now actually a viable Laser ship! Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:12:00 - [1453] Originally by: SkyCrane I expect the next Amarr fix will be a Sacrilege nerf. That ships is just too easy to fit out and does far too much damage do be an Amarr ship. Peacefullnub: People seem to think Amarrs role in this game is POS takedowns... Which truly is pathetic and annoying and is as good as no role imo. No! Amarr role is: Enemy morale booster, boost avoidance and nerf-bat magnet. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Wrattus Norvegicus	Posted - 2008.01.10 16:39:00 - [1454] Of course the simple solution to the 'Amarr question' is to simply fly the other, better ships. I flew the Absolution for ages before I realised how much better the other racial command ships are. I now fly a Sleipnir and have never looked back. You might be suprised how quickly you can retrain for a different ship in the same class, many of the skills carry over.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.01.10 17:37:00 - [1455] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 10/01/2008 17:36:46 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Gabriel Karade The latter situation is exactly where the mid-range Megapulse shines. A Megathron has to haul itself from target to target, doing 0 dps for a significant period, the Armageddon or Abaddon just sits there hitting the primary from t=0 until the fight is over. It doesn't matter if the Pulse boat gets webbed by a tackler, it's still hitting it's target, a webbed Megathron is out of the fight until it takes out the tackler itself or the gang's support does so. Sorry - only clown pvpers do that. Top pvpers use long range ships with short range high damage ammo + drones, and rely on short range ships to hold targets down. But then again, I guess you only fight NPC's who orbit gate at 50km Coming from the noob alt that's hilarious... ...or is that really your main () ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:03:00 - [1456] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 10/01/2008 17:36:46 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Gabriel Karade The latter situation is exactly where the mid-range Megapulse shines. A Megathron has to haul itself from target to target, doing 0 dps for a significant period, the Armageddon or Abaddon just sits there hitting the primary from t=0 until the fight is over. It doesn't matter if the Pulse boat gets webbed by a tackler, it's still hitting it's target, a webbed Megathron is out of the fight until it takes out the tackler itself or the gang's support does so. Sorry - only clown pvpers do that. Top pvpers use long range ships with short range high damage ammo + drones, and rely on short range ships to hold targets down. But then again, I guess you only fight NPC's who orbit gate at 50km Coming from the noob alt that's hilarious... ...or is that really your main () So you call me a noob and it turns out the noobs know more than you? Thanks for admiting. Mid range does not exist so your arguments FAIL. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Vikarion Caldari United Heavens	Posted - 2008.01.10 22:04:00 - [1457] I'm starting to get the feeling that the devs avoid any thread with the word "Amarr" in it. Perhaps not, but it would be nice to know if they actually understand/acknowledge these concerns. I use CrumpleCorn(tm) Sigs, because they (and he) are awesome!
Titus Lewis	Posted - 2008.01.10 23:02:00 - [1458] They have been for a long time. Originally by: Vikarion I'm starting to get the feeling that the devs avoid any thread with the word "Amarr" in it. Perhaps not, but it would be nice to know if they actually understand/acknowledge these concerns.
Vikarion Caldari United Heavens	Posted - 2008.01.11 01:56:00 - [1459] Well, that's kind of sad. Have they ever given any reasons for why they think Amarr are not underpowered? Or, rather, why lasers are not underpowered? I like CCP, but this does seem to be a bit of a blind spot. And by "blind spot", I mean "giant train tunnel". I use CrumpleCorn(tm) Sigs, because they (and he) are awesome!
Plausable Swap	Posted - 2008.01.11 02:00:00 - [1460] Amarr role in game is to be the worst out of the four races. SOMEONE has to be it, so quit whining noobs. ++

Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.11 02:20:00 - [1461] I'm pretty damn sure that a major cause of "Amarr problem" is their lack of mid slots. If CCP gave all "troubled" Amarr ships +1 mid slot -1 low slot, for just 1 week, we could see how much more popular those ships become.
shinsushi	Posted - 2008.01.11 03:29:00 - [1462] Originally by: Ephemeron I'm pretty damn sure that a major cause of "Amarr problem" is their lack of mid slots. If CCP gave all "troubled" Amarr ships +1 mid slot -1 low slot, for just 1 week, we could see how much more popular those ships become. Well, I think its a myriad of things. The playerbase looks at amarr and think: The APOC, maller, zealot, punisher, prophecy, curse, pilgrim, and lasers in general need work, and that fights revolve around that magical 24km scram range (silly isn't it?) lessening the value of mid-range. The developers look at amarr and think: The geddon, abaddon, Khanid line, ceptors and capitals are great, EANs and omni-tanking are the issue here. I kinda side with the people who fly amarr (is there even 1 developer left who flies them?) OH, to your post, most amarrian vessels actually have a nearly useless high-slot module where NOS used to go (if it would fit) that is looking for a new home. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Spyder1226 Scare Tactics Cult of War	Posted - 2008.01.11 03:41:00 - [1463] Just would like to show my support for this thread. I hope CCP uses the great wealth of information that is in this thread to fix amarr.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.11 03:43:00 - [1464] Originally by: Ephemeron I'm pretty damn sure that a major cause of "Amarr problem" is their lack of mid slots. If CCP gave all "troubled" Amarr ships +1 mid slot -1 low slot, for just 1 week, we could see how much more popular those ships become. Or remove the extra highslot and add a mid; would be a boost to a ton of Amarr ships really. Three midslot designs are preety stupid; the four-midslot Amarr ships are simply way way better. Rifters!
shinsushi	Posted - 2008.01.11 04:07:00 - [1465] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Ephemeron I'm pretty damn sure that a major cause of "Amarr problem" is their lack of mid slots. If CCP gave all "troubled" Amarr ships +1 mid slot -1 low slot, for just 1 week, we could see how much more popular those ships become. Or remove the extra highslot and add a mid; would be a boost to a ton of Amarr ships really. Three midslot designs are preety stupid; the four-midslot Amarr ships are simply way way better. I would soo love to argue with this, but that would be a lie, and I would have to edit my post above =) The only argument I can see against it is that amarr are not meant to be the least bit versatile, it says so on the tin. I know design philosophies seem to get trampled all over when balancing is concerned, but I remember amarr doctrine being lots of lasers and lots of armor, saying nothing about versatility or electronics (what more mids mean in my mind.) This held very true up until tier 3 BSes and tier 2 BCs, as no other race had a 8 turret BS, and only the gallente mostly competed on the amount of turrets per ship. This kinda got lost in the shuffle over the years though. Amarr went from omg damage to run of the mill damage. We have lost our identity as a race and CCP has shown no signs of giving it back to us. Currently we are at best one mostly failed philosophy (kill em before they get close) and a hodge podge of the rest of the races (missile and drone boats.) I would like to have the clarity of purpose like gallente (droners/do-or-die-in-your-face-gank), caldari (missiles, ECMs and long range) and minmatar (speed and versatility) have. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.11 04:24:00 - [1466] Originally by: shinsushi [ I would soo love to argue with this, but that would be a lie, and I would have to edit my post above =) The only argument I can see against it is that amarr are not meant to be the least bit versatile, it says so on the tin. I know design philosophies seem to get trampled all over when balancing is concerned, but I remember amarr doctrine being lots of lasers and lots of armor, saying nothing about versatility or electronics (what more mids mean in my mind.) Essential PvP mods take three mids, cap booster is what fourth mid means to me, a piece of engineering rather then electronics equipment. Design philosphy or no, four mids is preety necessary unless you're strictly going for plated setups. Take the Harbringer, for example; one of the reasons it's a much better ship then the Prophecy is exactly four midslots instead of three. Rifters!
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.11 05:23:00 - [1467] Originally by: shinsushi Well, I think its a myriad of things. The playerbase looks at amarr and think: The APOC, maller, zealot, punisher, prophecy, curse, pilgrim, and lasers in general need work, and that fights revolve around that magical 24km scram range (silly isn't it?) lessening the value of mid-range. The developers look at amarr and think: The geddon, abaddon, Khanid line, ceptors and capitals are great, EANs and omni-tanking are the issue here. I kinda side with the people who fly amarr (is there even 1 developer left who flies them?) OH, to your post, most amarrian vessels actually have a nearly useless high-slot module where NOS used to go (if it would fit) that is looking for a new home.[/quote I wonder what's really wrong with the Curse? Yes, it's less of a solopwnmobile now, but it's still a great ship if you use it correct. Not counting the fact that it's in fact a doneboat, but I have come to temrs with that a long time ago, as drones are important on an Amarr ship no mater how you look at it. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.11 05:52:00 - [1468] I would like to repeat someone words (dont remember exactly who said that): 1 extra drone brandwich (5 for frig, 10 for cruiser, 25 for bs) = 1 high slot mid slot>>low slot (just stupid, but many active midslot modules are better than passive lowslots analogs, not mention webbs, scramblers and ew) empty high slot (especialy when you cannot fit it)<<low slot.
Valadeya uthanaras Killjoy.	Posted - 2008.01.11 05:56:00 - [1469] Problem with the curse is actually simple: I am flying at 3000m/s, at 15km of a sleipnir with 220 mm autocannon and barrage. I have 3 T2 Tracking disruptor, with top skill and top ship BONUS!!! Sleipnir still hit me for full damage!!! and even autocannon bs will do good damage on me!!! EASY TOO SEE HOW WRONG IT IS. Missile with hit me with full damage.... ECM on a rook kill 3 ships targeting almost permanantly from long range, a really nice role Damp + Scram bonus on a Lachesis will keep you out of any harm from a single ship, or even a few ships for a while, and make you one of the best tackler in many situation Huggin .... dont have to make a picture why its amazing.....just think of the long range web.......with crazy strenght. Last patch show how much general lack of knowledge of the games the new balance developper have(zulupark), siply because EVERYWHERE on the forum OR in-game Tracking disruptor was CLEARLY the worst electronic warfare..... YET HE NERFED IT because of some content introduction HE SHOULD HAVE USED TO BOOOSSSST IT..... SO why curse is half-decent.....simply because It have noseferatu and neutraliser with long range that where nerfed...but it have no use in large gang, had is EW screwed for some idiotic reason, can't fit decently. THe main point his.......Curse boost to a heavy level a medium level module.....while the other 3 boost something to a level no other ship have Valadeya
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.01.11 06:55:00 - [1470] I'll list the sub-capital Amarr combat ships that can compete with other races in their respective category: Punisher, Maldiction, Arbitrator, Harbinger, Armageddon, Abaddon, Paladin, Sacrilege, Devoter, Curse, Absolution, Damnation. Of those 12 ships, only 6 use lasers as the primary weapon. All other Amarr ships pretty much suck. What especially needs help are the Pilgrim, Zealot, Apoc, and most of the T1 lineup. Oh, and who uses Tracking Disruptors anyway? I don't fit em on my Curse because there are better things to put in those mids.

PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.11 07:51:00 - [1471] Originally by: Kruel I'll list the sub-capital Amarr combat ships that can compete with other races in their respective category: Punisher, Maldiction, Arbitrator, Harbinger, Armageddon, Abaddon, Paladin, Sacrilege, Devoter, Curse, Absolution, Damnation. Punisher - useless frig (2 mids - no pvp, lasers - no pve) Harbinger/abaddon - only gangs and heavy plated setups or active tank+ac/artis. Devoter - worst HIC. Dont know for what advantage it has only 4 turrets and f*ng cap reduction bonus. (or devs suggested, that lasers used too many cap and in order to balance amarrs they remove 1 turret, but forget to add +25% faction bonus?) Paladin - worst maradeur (but still much better than any t1 amarr BS) Originally by:** Kruel Oh, and who uses Tracking Disruptors anyway? I don't fit em on my Curse because there are better things to put in those mids. I think that if curse\piligrim have something instead tracking disrupter bonus (or ability to affect optimal and fallof with TD) they will be great.
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.11 08:01:00 - [1472] Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras I have 3 T2 Tracking disruptor, with top skill and top ship BONUS!!! Sleipnir still hit me for full damage!!! and even autocannon bs will do good damage on me!!! EASY TOO SEE HOW WRONG IT IS. Missile with hit me with full damage.... ECM on a rook kill 3 ships targeting almost permanantly from long range, a really nice role Damp + Scram bonus on a Lachesis will keep you out of any harm from a single ship, or even a few ships for a while, and make you one of the best tackler in many situation Huggin .... dont have to make a picture why its amazing.....just think of the long range web.......with crazy strenght. Last patch show how much general lack of knowledge of the games the new balance developper have(zulupark), siply because EVERYWHERE on the forum OR in-game Tracking disruptor was CLEARLY the worst electronic warfare..... YET HE NERFED IT because of some content introduction HE SHOULD HAVE USED TO BOOOSSSST IT..... SO why curse is half-decent.....simply because It have noseferatu and neutraliser with long range that where nerfed...but it have no use in large gang, had is EW screwed for some idiotic reason, can't fit decently. THe main point his.......Curse boost to a heavy level a medium level module(nosferatu/neut).....while the other 3 boost something to a level no other ship have edit: yes it does boost TD.....but they are pointless now So all those good curse pilot you see everywhere.....are mostly people with high grade set in their head, otherwise, its a hard time doing stuff with a curse and No "you can use missile on it" excuse....ITS BONUSING NOSFERATU AND NEUTRALIZER, NOT missile... Valadeya Onfe again I have to point out my extremely limited experience in PvP, but I still think the Curse is fine. Sure, the trackingdisruptors are next to useless, butt he highslots are still usefull. Play around with it's fitting a little bit and see what you can do with it, and I'm sure you'll work something out which works in small gangs :) ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Felysta Sandorn System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.11 11:16:00 - [1473] Originally by: Wrattus Norvegicus Of course the simple solution to the 'Amarr question' is to simply fly the other, better ships. I flew the Absolution for ages before I realised how much better the other racial command ships are. I now fly a Sleipnir and have never looked back. You might be suprised how quickly you can retrain for a different ship in the same class, many of the skills carry over. This... It took me less than a week to train for a Hurricane and named guns... It does the same DPS as a Harbinger, but has no cap issues, goes faster, has a smaller sig radius, is more maneuverable, is cheaper to buy and fit, and easier to fit (essentially has an extra 50-60 CPU compared to the Harbinger). To get the same style of fitting from the Harbinger, I need to use two fitting rigs (less gun CPU), which leaves one free rigslot, where the Hurricane has three. I'm training for a Devoter at the moment, but once that's done, I'm going to get t2 guns for the cane and see about training minnie cruiser 5. Latest Video, Click Here!
Lady Vorax Amarr UK Corp Rare Faction	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:01:00 - [1474] As far as i can tell no eve dev, gm, whatever has posted in here. in a 50 page topic.......\ Isnt that a clear sign that us poor amarr pilots are going to get nerfed and nerfed some more and that CCP doesnt give a rats behind:) about it.
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2008.01.11 12:52:00 - [1475] Even the relatively new Amarr E-Attack ships have inherited Amarr problems. They, and Amarr Recons have bonus for the module that has different ship-size classes. Nosfs and neuts can be frigate-size, cruiser-size and battleship-size. Any other race Recons and E-Attack frigs have bonus for modules that work the same way on any ship size. There's no battleship size webs and frigate size webs, same goes for scrambling, dampning and ECM. IMHO, that renders Amarr E-Attack frig much less attractive than any other E-Attack frig. Recons still can pull their weight, but the nos nerf hit them hard too (the irony is that the nos was nerfed because of Gallente, and the victims are Amarr ships).
Jarriah Takate Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:14:00 - [1476] Well, i am Amarr and i am proud of it.
Enkindu Gallente Black Serpent Technologies	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:25:00 - [1477] You guys ever think that this is perhaps intentional? Maybe you are all getting your rightful dose of Karma for voluntarily choosing to play a race that (even virtually) supports and practices slavery? Seems fair to me.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:26:00 - [1478] Quick recap of last 51 pages New Amarr players and also any players with 18+ charisma - REMAKE your char unless you know what you are doing. Also for experienced players, Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:30:00 - [1479] Originally by: Jarriah Takate Well, i am Amarr and i am proud of it. Proud races are never the good ones because if your race was the best there wouldnt be much to be proud of, would there? --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
burek Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:35:00 - [1480] This thread would have much more credibility if it had less posts by JoJo. CCP probably looks, wow 51 pages, lets read this.... oh it's JoJo on every page, must be troll. Forget it...

Zaskarr Amarr Falling Stars Squadron	Posted - 2008.01.11 13:44:00 - [1481] Originally by: Jarriah Takate Well, i am Amarr and i am proud of it. F***k Yeaaah, Amarr FTW! __________________ How do I shot web?
Poister Amarr THEM. Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2008.01.11 16:56:00 - [1482] Still no Official response? Amarr were once Rocks, now were just mere pebbles in the sand.
kessah Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.11 17:02:00 - [1483] Felysta Sandorn train Surgical strike 5, pulse spec 4 missing out on 6% dmg there. Amarr are fine i use them and im a perfect in them, they require high end skills.
Poister Amarr THEM. Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2008.01.11 17:07:00 - [1484] Originally by: kessah Felysta Sandorn train Surgical strike 5, pulse spec 4 missing out on 6% dmg there. Amarr are fine i use them and im a perfect in them, they require high end skills. Get a Clue .... I both those at 5 ...well practically all gunnery skills at 5.... And there still ****e ! Besides Lasers are not the only argument here.
kessah Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.11 17:31:00 - [1485] Originally by: Poister Originally by: kessah Felysta Sandorn train Surgical strike 5, pulse spec 4 missing out on 6% dmg there. Amarr are fine i use them and im a perfect in them, they require high end skills. Get a Clue .... I both those at 5 ...well practically all gunnery skills at 5.... And there still ****e ! Besides Lasers are not the only argument here. Ahh you were the one that died to me in Passari the other day, i can only expect ignorant and hostile responses from u and ur corp.
Hey You Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.11 17:36:00 - [1486] i just noticed thread. All i can say is... Signed! We Ride Together We Die Together
Toxic Fumes	Posted - 2008.01.11 18:47:00 - [1487] Signed
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.11 18:50:00 - [1488] Originally by: kessah Felysta Sandorn train Surgical strike 5, pulse spec 4 missing out on 6% dmg there. Amarr are fine i use them and im a perfect in them, they require high end skills. And do you realized how much damage output the other races get with maxed skills like that? I think you dont. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.11 21:17:00 - [1489] It has been posited in another thread that the upcoming 'boost patch' will contain long-overdue fixes to Amarr/lasers. Anyone have a dev quote on this? -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.11 21:19:00 - [1490] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 11/01/2008 21:20:06 Originally by: Meridius Dex It has been posited in another thread that the upcoming 'boost patch' will contain long-overdue fixes to Amarr/lasers. Anyone have a dev quote on this? They have no fix's planned. Every single patch since rmr had some kind of stealth Amarr nerf. Even when they fix the sacriledge, then nerfed the hell out of curse and Amarr EW. Or remember how they boosted megapulse tracking with conflag to be worse trackcing than any non-amarr dreadnaught closerange weapon. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total)

Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2008.01.11 21:42:00 - [1491] Poor JoJo still doesn't understand tracking, you have my sympathies. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Cory Veilwalker Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.01.11 22:08:00 - [1492] Well I do hope CCP will finally take care of amarr issues. Enough is enough.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.11 22:18:00 - [1493] Originally by: Jonny JoJo RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE You're trolling. 1) Khanid Mk2 was a outright Amarr boost to the crappy Khanid line. 2) Pulse 25% tracking boost anyone? They should reverse it because you didn't notice it though. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Tra Ding'ho	Posted - 2008.01.11 22:22:00 - [1494] Originally by: Cory Veilwalker Well I do hope CCP will finally take care of amarr issues. Enough is enough. Other Amarr issues like.... Low self esteem?
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.11 23:01:00 - [1495] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 11/01/2008 23:01:53 Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Jonny JoJo RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE You're trolling. 1) Khanid Mk2 was a outright Amarr boost to the crappy Khanid line. 2) Pulse 25% tracking boost anyone? They should reverse it because you didn't notice it though. Back off, Anti-Amarr Troll. 1. Khanid made previosly unusable ships useable by basing ships on non-amarr design. For example, Sacriledge got laser fix by CCP removing lasers and making it a caldari missile ship that required Amarr cruiser lvl5. Other than Sacri, most of amarr have serious problems. 2. Megapulse + Conflag has worse tracking AFTER the 25% boost than a Dreadnaught Ion Seige Blaster. So go away troll Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total)
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2008.01.11 23:15:00 - [1496] Ignore: Originally by: Jonny JoJo 2. Megapulse + Conflag has worse tracking AFTER the 25% boost than a Dreadnaught Ion Seige Blaster. JoJo doesn't understand tracking or even use CCPs tracking guide to check his claims. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2008.01.11 23:52:00 - [1497] while i think your anaylis of dps is not in depth enought as it doesnt take into account tracking optimal or fall off. although im not sure if u had taken these into account it would make any difference as i havnt ran the numbers my self. amarr need some real loving my alt is a 45 mill sp amarr toon only trained in combat skills and hes fun to fly. but my gall and caldari still do every thing he can do better and there skills arnt any where near his which is really sad. i`d like no cap use on there guns tbh and give the crystals more dame types take some of the em damage and put it in explo and kinetic. BIG SIGNED HERE!!!
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.12 00:10:00 - [1498] Edited by: PeacefullNub on 12/01/2008 00:23:28 Originally by: Cpt Branko 1) Khanid Mk2 was a outright Amarr boost to the crappy Khanid line. Khanid ships are fine, exept 1 thing - its not amarr boost. Amarrs have no missile boats, no missile specs, no SP in missiles. Even before this "boost" amarrs have high skillreqs (all skills exept missiles and shieldtanking). Probably when CCP nerfed nosfs they think: "but many non-amarr (amarrs - who cares about 16% when there is 60% caldary+galente?) players trained useless amarr cruisers for best solomobile (Curse). Lets give them something like armortanked roketships!" No,realy - 2\3 of khanid ships pilots are caldary. Originally by: Cpt Branko 2) Pulse 25% tracking boost anyone? They should reverse it because you didn't notice it though. Actualy i dont mind to reverse it (and khanid ships too btw). At least CCP will have no exquses like "but you have youre "Oomh" - youre fine now". Why we need this +25% pulse tracking boost if its tracking still worst? P.S. Devs allways thinking about balance, about a way to fix amarrs and not make them overpowered. They allways waiting, comparing, analising stats. They keep their work in secret. And in the end they will do some stupid thing and call it "ultimate amarr boost". And this scenario will repeat itself until the end of Eve.
In Theory	Posted - 2008.01.12 01:17:00 - [1499] Perhaps listing the major problems Amarr have, then desribing/discussing solutions would be more productive than "Amarr have issues, boost plx, /signed" Personally, I see the main problems as; 1.Lasers, in general, are poor weapons. --->Too much cap use --->Weak damage type, no variance --->Weak range --->weak tracking --->harsh powergrid reqs. 2.Amarr ships are lacking capacitor and powergrid. --->Beyond frigate set-ups, it becomes very tough to fit Amarr ships- usually because of lack of cpu. --->Cap use is extreme, between lasers (main issue), speed modules, and armor repair mods- Amarr burn through cap too fast. 3.Nothing really "special" about Amarr ships/specialization. --->Minmatar have 'speed', Caldari have awesome 'cap-less' shield tanking/missiles, Gallente are great with Drones and (for lack of better word) are pvp pwnmobiles. --->If Amarr are supposed to be a great cap race, then we need better cap- if we are supposed to be the heaviest tanks, boost our armor/resists more... ================ My biggest concern is lasers. While Lasers are definitely not the perfect weapon for warfare, they are by far weaker than even projectile weapons (buddy of mine is running Minnie, projectiles aren't perfect, but they're leagues ahead of lasers). Major problem is cap use, not only do Amarr ships waste a racial bonus by having to reduce the capacitor use (no other race would even bother with lasers as is, so why should we lose a bonus to make them barely useable? I admit that, being mostly ammo-free (high-end crystals burn out), laser cap use is NEEDED to retain balance... but watching my capacitor run down from only using my lasers and no other module activated is rather disappointing... A ship should be able to sustain laser fire without other modules using cap- but then when you activate repairers and MWDs, etc. your cap will burn out faster... I can't say what a reasonable period of time would be for our cap to last running lasers-- but a 30% reduction is cap req. for all energy turrets would prolly sort it out. This would also mean removing the cap reduction bonus on Amarr ships and replacing it with a damage or RoF bonus instead. Secondly, lasers need to be doing Thermal damage as a priority over EM... don't know how many of you understand that physics of focused energy, but lasers as they are should be doing primary thermal damage, with EM as the secondary component, with some crystals increasing EM damage at the expense of thermal... Thermal is the actual laser component, EM being the electromagnetic field that contains the pulse/beam as it is fired. Basically reversing the current damage types as they are now. This would all but eliminate the narrow list of viable targets for Amarr. --->A friend of mine (who also plays Amarr), mentioned that explosive could also be a possible crystal type- but I don't know how a laser would explode. It's probably for balance sake to maintain current range and tracking limitations on lasers, but I still feel that tracking on lasers should regularily outclass projectile weapons, if not also hybrids... as lasers are focused light/energy- and no solid projectile to lose accuracy, the only limitation on tracking would be turret movement- but without the extra mass of ammunition (thus less burden of the mechanism), shouldn't a laser turret move faster? And finally, the powergrid reqs. are harsh to make the more powerful turrets harder to fit- for balance and all, but it's impossible to fit 8 small beams on a Coercer along with repairer and afterburner, without resorting to powergrid mods. This goes along with Amarr ship issues... either lower energy turret powergrid req. or increase ship powergrid (and Omen cpu). If lasers are fixed, then most Amarr worries are solved... we'll still burn cap and be mid-range ships in a long/close range world, but the root of the problem is solved. Amarr ships still need a bit of love though. Just my thoughts... =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Well, that should've worked...
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.12 01:23:00 - [1500] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Ignore: Originally by: Jonny JoJo 2. Megapulse + Conflag has worse tracking AFTER the 25% boost than a Dreadnaught Ion Seige Blaster. JoJo doesn't understand tracking or even use CCPs tracking guide to check his claims. Tell me, let us say that I have a hostile typhoon webbed at 2km and he is orbiting me at 20m/s. How come I miss something like 40%+ of my shots if there is no pracking issue? Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total)

Becka Call	Posted - 2008.01.12 04:07:00 - [1501] Amarr will not get fixed. The next patch will further nerf Amarr ships; probably the Sacralidge will get power grid nerfed. The devs are saying they will fix Amarr but they're not taking it seriously. If they were taking it seriously then exchanges like the following wouldn't happen: Did anyone internally think it was a Bad Idea(tm) to introduce a T2 version of a battleship that a developer stated(in a dev blog) would be getting a role change without implementing that change to base the T2 ship on? I'm not sure what role change or devblog you're talking about. Could you link it for me?--Zulupark The exchanage was at http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=631272&page=15 The dev blog was at http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=427. Zulu finally answered: We've already said, again and again, that we want to look into giving Amarr more oomph. How we do that hasn't been decided. Zulupark didn't even know what Tuxford said about fixing Amarr. He hadn't talked to Tuxford about what he had in mind about balancing Amarr. They went ahead and added another Amarrian ship(Paladin) based on a broken Amarrian ship. No-one thought "hey this is a bad Idea; Were just going to have to fix this too later." No one thought "Tuxford said we might give the Apoc a role twist; Adding the Paladin first is going to make more work for us later." I think Tuxford had some Ideas on fixing Amarr. I think they are all mooted now. This is like a big ugly task that everyone kicks down the road and tries not to think about now. Its too hard of a problem to fix; Balancing 4 different races means that there are six different axis that have to be balanced. Three different races would only be three axis. Balancing Amarr to the other races is the same amount of work as balancing the other races was to each other. So Easy way to fix Amarr? There is not one. Good way to fix Amarr? Nerf the modules that everyone always fits for PvP: MWD/Cap booster/Scram/Web. Didn't the devs say that when everyone is fitting a module somethings wrong?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.12 04:17:00 - [1502] Originally by: Becka Call Amarr will not get fixed. The next patch will further nerf Amarr ships; probably the Sacralidge will get power grid nerfed. The devs are saying they will fix Amarr but they're not taking it seriously. If they were taking it seriously then exchanges like the following wouldn't happen: Did anyone internally think it was a Bad Idea(tm) to introduce a T2 version of a battleship that a developer stated(in a dev blog) would be getting a role change without implementing that change to base the T2 ship on? I'm not sure what role change or devblog you're talking about. Could you link it for me?--Zulupark The exchanage was at http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=631272&page=15 The dev blog was at http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=427. Zulu finally answered: We've already said, again and again, that we want to look into giving Amarr more oomph. How we do that hasn't been decided. Zulupark didn't even know what Tuxford said about fixing Amarr. He hadn't talked to Tuxford about what he had in mind about balancing Amarr. They went ahead and added another Amarrian ship(Paladin) based on a broken Amarrian ship. No-one thought "hey this is a bad Idea; Were just going to have to fix this too later." No one thought "Tuxford said we might give the Apoc a role twist; Adding the Paladin first is going to make more work for us later." I think Tuxford had some Ideas on fixing Amarr. I think they are all mooted now. This is like a big ugly task that everyone kicks down the road and tries not to think about now. Its too hard of a problem to fix; Balancing 4 different races means that there are six different axis that have to be balanced. Three different races would only be three axis. Balancing Amarr to the other races is the same amount of work as balancing the other races was to each other. So Easy way to fix Amarr? There is not one. Good way to fix Amarr? Nerf the modules that everyone always fits for PvP: MWD/Cap booster/Scram/Web. Didn't the devs say that when everyone is fitting a module somethings wrong? Good summary of ccp fails. I kinda miss tux --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Aindrias Amarr Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.01.12 10:59:00 - [1503] Page 1 Please
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.12 11:40:00 - [1504] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 12/01/2008 11:41:04 Originally by: Enkindu You guys ever think that this is perhaps intentional? Maybe you are all getting your rightful dose of Karma for voluntarily choosing to play a race that (even virtually) supports and practices slavery? Seems fair to me. So you are saying it is ok for CCP to punish us for a story CCP made about us? Now that nobody can deny that Amarr truly suck, the last exceuse is now "your backstory means you suck". Surely the Slavers should be powerful enough to capture slaves yes? Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.12 11:43:00 - [1505] Originally by: Enkindu You guys ever think that this is perhaps intentional? Maybe you are all getting your rightful dose of Karma for voluntarily choosing to play a race that (even virtually) supports and practices slavery? Seems fair to me. What morons would think its logical to make 1 race suck and then claim it had the power to enslave another race thats not so nerfed? --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
LordRene Amarr Mission Experts	Posted - 2008.01.12 12:05:00 - [1506] Signed
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.12 12:06:00 - [1507] Quick recap of last 52 pages New Amarr players and also any players with 18+ charisma - REMAKE your char unless you know what you are doing. Also for experienced players, Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total)
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.01.12 12:07:00 - [1508] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 12/01/2008 12:09:23 Its impossible to balance all races vs eachother...give amarr some boosts, and some other race starts whining instead. Amarr will never be the new gallente and neither will minmatar. --- Its dead, Jim.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.12 12:12:00 - [1509] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 12/01/2008 12:09:23 Its impossible to balance all races vs eachother...give amarr some boosts, and some other race starts whining instead. Amarr will never be the new gallente and neither will minmatar. Equal = Bad Competitive = Good. Amarr are not competitive Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total)
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2008.01.12 12:54:00 - [1510] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Mila Prestoc Ignore: Originally by: Jonny JoJo 2. Megapulse + Conflag has worse tracking AFTER the 25% boost than a Dreadnaught Ion Seige Blaster. JoJo doesn't understand tracking or even use CCPs tracking guide to check his claims. Tell me, let us say that I have a hostile typhoon webbed at 2km and he is orbiting me at 20m/s. How come I miss something like 40%+ of my shots if there is no pracking issue? Nice try at deflecting your statement to another one, but both are still wrong, I guess your numbers just arn't accurate or you need to train your tracking skill. Weapon Settings Graph Yeah, that hit chance is sooooooooo bad compared to the others , I even used t2 close range ammo with the tracking penalty and doesn't come close to 40% missing. Your dread weapon statement is even more incorrect. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.

Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.12 13:06:00 - [1511] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 12/01/2008 13:07:48 Originally by: Mila Prestoc Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Mila Prestoc Ignore: Originally by: Jonny JoJo 2. Megapulse + Conflag has worse tracking AFTER the 25% boost than a Dreadnaught Ion Seige Blaster. JoJo doesn't understand tracking or even use CCPs tracking guide to check his claims. Tell me, let us say that I have a hostile typhoon webbed at 2km and he is orbiting me at 20m/s. How come I miss something like 40%+ of my shots if there is no pracking issue? Nice try at deflecting your statement to another one, but both are still wrong, I guess your numbers just arn't accurate or you need to train your tracking skill. Weapon Settings Graph Yeah, that hit chance is sooooooooo bad compared to the others , I even used t2 close range ammo with the tracking penalty and doesn't come close to 40% missing. Your dread weapon statement is even more incorrect. Please re-do the graph with Chart range of 1-10km put in. at 500m, Amarr have almost 0% change to hit the webbed typhoon orbiting it. At 1km, Amarr have 60% of their shots miss. OMG Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total)
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.12 13:32:00 - [1512] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/01/2008 13:34:08 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Please re-do the graph with Chart range of 1-10km put in. at 500m, Amarr have almost 0% change to hit the webbed typhoon orbiting it. At 1km, Amarr have 60% of their shots miss a webbed typhoon orbiting the Amarr ship at 20m/s. OMG You cannot orbit the Amarr ship at 20m/s, the Typhoon isn't that fast. However, at 18.8m/s transversal (the max a Typhoon can get) and at 500m range, the Amarr ship can hit a Typhoon-sized target at 40% accuracy using Multifreq L and highest-tier pulses. At the same transversal/range/target, the Typhoon can hit with 50% accuracy using highest-tier ACs and EMP L. T2 ammo makes things much worse: The Amarr ship with Conflag L will hit a Typhoon-sized target at roughly 4% accuracy. The Minmatar ship with Hail L will hit a Typhoon-sized target at 10% accuracy at 500m. Of course, this is theorycraft and fully invalid in actual combat, because you WILL drop transversal or force the other guy to increase his sig radius to dreadnaught-size if he tries to keep it up. But a EFT PvP-er like you doesn't know this. At any rate, at 1km: 800mm AC II w EMP L: 88% accuracy Mega Pulse II w Multifreq L: 81% accuracy 800mm AC II w Hail L: 60% accuracy Mega Pulse II w Multifreq L: 43-44% accuracy It's preety obvious that T2 high damage ammo is not worth using (damage-wise) except at about 3km+ range, where it'd start to overtake T1 ammo. At 3km range, all the ammos hit with over 90% consistency. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.12 14:09:00 - [1513] Why ppls allways try to show some dps setups on amarr ships (especialy when this setups cannot be fited) just to have some prove for their words "amarrs are fine, stop whinning" But when someone shows, that tracking difference betwin pulses and any other closerange weapon is actualy 1-20% less dps, they just dont whant to look at it - "but it isnt 40% so stop whinning".
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.12 14:10:00 - [1514] Originally by: PeacefullNub But when someone shows, that tracking difference betwin pulses and any other closerange weapon is actualy 1-20% less dps, they just dont whant to look at it - "but it isnt 40% so stop whinning". Because you are a utter noob if you don't know how to hit people reliably in webrange Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.12 14:13:00 - [1515] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 12/01/2008 14:13:25 Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: PeacefullNub But when someone shows, that tracking difference betwin pulses and any other closerange weapon is actualy 1-20% less dps, they just dont whant to look at it - "but it isnt 40% so stop whinning". Because you are a utter noob if you don't know how to hit people reliably in webrange Approaching a ship to lower transversal is not always possible. You could be double/tripple webbed yourself as other ships have more mids than Amarr. Go on - Admit it - Amarr trackcing sucks and you know it. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(21 total)
Felysta Sandorn System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.13 00:30:00 - [1516] Originally by: kessah Felysta Sandorn train Surgical strike 5, pulse spec 4 missing out on 6% dmg there. Amarr are fine i use them and im a perfect in them, they require high end skills. Gah! Stupid EVEMon! How the hell do I get my info off that damned site? Latest Video, Click Here!
Becka Call	Posted - 2008.01.13 04:08:00 - [1517] I am still surprised that: a) People still complaining about how screwed Amarr and lasers are. b) People actually argue that they aren't. Why argue that they aren't? The devs aren't going to fix it. The easy way to shut down these threads is to point out that the Devs don't know how/care to fix the problem.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.13 09:08:00 - [1518] Originally by: Becka Call I am still surprised that: a) People still complaining about how screwed Amarr and lasers are. b) People actually argue that they aren't. Why argue that they aren't? The devs aren't going to fix it. The easy way to shut down these threads is to point out that the Devs don't know how/care to fix the problem. No I like keeping this thread going to prove that zulu doesnt read the forums when boost patch comes out. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Zaskarr Amarr Falling Stars Squadron	Posted - 2008.01.13 10:43:00 - [1519] People say that Amarr are not inferior because they want them to stay that way. Those who fly other ships anyway. __________________ How do I shot web?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 11:40:00 - [1520] Edited by: Goumindong on 13/01/2008 11:41:31 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Approaching a ship to lower transversal is not always possible. You could be double/tripple webbed yourself as other ships have more mids than Amarr. Go on - Admit it - Amarr trackcing sucks and you know it. The trick is that you dont approach them,and its fairly easy to reduce transversal to working velocities. Tracking is an advantage, but its not going to make that much of a difference. Especially because all of the difference it DOES make, it ought to make. If anything, amarr should have a larger disadvantage in the short range because otherwise balancing them well at longer ranges means that the inability to get under their guns decently well gives them too many advantages. Originally by: Mila Prestoc Nice try at deflecting your statement to another one, but both are still wrong, I guess your numbers just arn't accurate or you need to train your tracking skill. Weapon Settings Graph Yeah, that hit chance is sooooooooo bad compared to the others , I even used t2 close range ammo with the tracking penalty and doesn't come close to 40% missing. Your dread weapon statement is even more incorrect. Actually it is pretty bad when you get really low, even at tiny transversals, if an other ship can hold the amarran ship that close they ought to have a huge advantage. Of course this is intended. But look at say, the differences at 1km, 2km, and 3km. Lets not use the megathrons tracking, but the hyperions, as well, the hyperion with 2 webs has a bit easier time of dictating transversal[as you need to be much faster than your target to do that and keeping him from keeping range]. 1km expected dps modifier Laser: 40% hit rate, avg dmg .3024 Hyperion: 50% hit rate, avg dmg, .395 Advantage Hyperion: 30.62% DPS advantage via tracking ignoring all other advantages 2km expected dps modifier Laser: 79% hit rate. .7276 expected dps Hyperion: 86% hit rate, .8202 expected dps Advantage Hyperion: 12.72% DPS advantage via tracking ignoring all other advantages. 3km expected dps modifier Laser: 90% hit rate, .8752 expected dps Hyperion: 94% hit rate, .9319 expecte dps Advantage Hyperion: 6.4% dps advantage via tracking ignoring all other advantages. Its not a huge difference unless you get really close or no webs are applied, but you cant pretend its not significant.

astowv Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 11:46:00 - [1521] did people forget that Amarr is the only race that does not have to refit. How much dmg can Amarr do on the 10 seconds that others have to reload. mmm. ----
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.13 11:52:00 - [1522] Originally by: astowv did people forget that Amarr is the only race that does not have to refit. How much dmg can Amarr do on the 10 seconds that others have to reload. mmm. Hahahahaha, no seriously youre very funny...lol --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Law Enforcer	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:06:00 - [1523] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Becka Call I am still surprised that: a) People still complaining about how screwed Amarr and lasers are. b) People actually argue that they aren't. Why argue that they aren't? The devs aren't going to fix it. The easy way to shut down these threads is to point out that the Devs don't know how/care to fix the problem. No I like keeping this thread going to prove that zulu doesnt read the forums when boost patch comes out. hes to busy trying to figure out how to nerf carriers more. apparently having a vagabond able to completely shut down a carrier by kiting it's fighters/killing them and bumping the carrier isn't enough. there's nothing wrong with amarr according to zulupark. his attitude towards the amarr questions in that dev chat was horrid.
Felysta Sandorn System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:37:00 - [1524] Originally by: Law Enforcer Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Becka Call I am still surprised that: a) People still complaining about how screwed Amarr and lasers are. b) People actually argue that they aren't. Why argue that they aren't? The devs aren't going to fix it. The easy way to shut down these threads is to point out that the Devs don't know how/care to fix the problem. No I like keeping this thread going to prove that zulu doesnt read the forums when boost patch comes out. hes to busy trying to figure out how to nerf carriers more. apparently having a vagabond able to completely shut down a carrier by kiting it's fighters/killing them and bumping the carrier isn't enough. there's nothing wrong with amarr according to zulupark. his attitude towards the amarr questions in that dev chat was horrid. The outrage is going to be insane when that boost patch comes out and there's little/nothing fixing Amarr... But we all know there isn't going to be anything... I can't wait to be honest... I can imagine the patch notes now... * Increased all projectile tracking by 10% * Increased all hybrid falloff by 50% * Increased all laser cap use by 10% You can see it, can't you? It seems that devs don't play this game with Amarr characters, or if they do, they do nothing but fly the Geddon, Abso, or Archon... Latest Video, Click Here!
Ash'el Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.01.13 15:05:00 - [1525] I'd be happy if all they did was lower the cap use on lasers and fix the zealot and apoc.
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2008.01.13 16:47:00 - [1526] Edited by: Rid*** Valer on 13/01/2008 16:47:54* Amarr have some issues: Cap usage of lasers Fitting issues with some ships Geared towards Mid-range combat. EAMNs on armor tanked ships Now, if cap usage of lasers was lowered 10-20%, it could provide a nice boost for amarr ships. Some of their ships do need a bit of love fitting wise. However, the mid-range combat part is a bit of an issue. Its right up there with long-range caldari missile ships...the combat doctrine just isn't suited for the range and types of fights in eve. EAMNs do a good job of really boosting EM resists. I'd be ok with EAMNs giving about 5% less to EM resists. All of these things make me want the devs to give Amarr some love. However, don't lost track of the fact that Amarr does have some really decent ships. It just also has a few that aren't as good. Maybe a few more than other races. However, these things make me really sick of seeing Amarr threads, and hoping they never get love out of spite: JoJo trolling every thread he can about Amarr....He even trolled some COAD threads. People insisting that every ship needs three slots for a web/scram/MWD. The MWD is pretty much always useful, but who solos anymore? Your gang should have dedicated tacklers. This is what people have been telling shield-tanked ships for quite some time.
Orgos Khenn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:16:00 - [1527] Problem: Amarr ships suck. Solution: Fly something else.
Rigo Kajjar Rigo Reloaded	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:36:00 - [1528] Originally by: Orgos Khenn Problem: Amarr ships suck. Solution: Fly something else. This. Amarr is broken for years and Zulu stated they wont fix it. What do you guys wait for? Go train something else.
zoltar Caldari Perdu Opus	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:38:00 - [1529] Originally by: Orgos Khenn Problem: Amarr ships suck. Solution: Fly something else. this. I cant believe this thread is still going.
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:43:00 - [1530] In b4 someone whines about that the "marriage" article ended with "shield and blasters" instead of "shields and lasers".... oh wait noone uses lasers, not even maller or apoc pilots --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur

Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.13 18:34:00 - [1531] Originally by: MenanceWhite As someone mentioned: Amarr has range advantage on their pulse lasers so they can shoot at mid-range, because of that those lasers have worse tracking(or more like amarr don't get tracking boni). So it happens to be so that this "mid-range" is seemingly useless in PvP where it's either closerange gank or sniping, Being able to shoot outside of webrange is preety important, really. Why do you think Barrage M goes for 1000 ISK/shot and is probably the most used Minmatar ammo, ever (although it nerfs tracking and does only as much damage as minmatar T1 ammo)? Range. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.13 18:43:00 - [1532] Originally by: Cpt Branko post But name amarr ships using medium sized pulse lasers that you'd pvp with. That you really would need to web. Nano Zealot? --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Becka Call	Posted - 2008.01.13 19:29:00 - [1533] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No I like keeping this thread going to prove that zulu doesnt read the forums when boost patch comes out. He does't read the other dev blogs; why would he read the forums?
Dillius Archania Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.13 20:34:00 - [1534] Originally by: MenanceWhite Those who just started their character as Amarr have it worse, but hey- who starts with playing Amarr unless it's some alt they're making? Crazy people like me who didn't know anything about the game before starting it.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.13 20:44:00 - [1535] Originally by: Becka Call Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No I like keeping this thread going to prove that zulu doesnt read the forums when boost patch comes out. He does't read the other dev blogs; why would he read the forums? Because he claimed he did in his dev blog. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.13 21:01:00 - [1536] Edited by: The Djego on 13/01/2008 21:05:31 Originally by: MenanceWhite Originally by: Cpt Branko post But name amarr ships using medium sized pulse lasers that you'd pvp with. That you really would need to web. Nano Zealot? You can even nano a Omen quite good and the last thing you need for a setup that works outside of Web Range is a Web. Nano Zealot is nothing funny when you meet one that is piloted right. Actualy Omen works better speed fitted than tanked because it simply lacks the Grid for a aceptable combination of Gank and Tank. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.13 21:58:00 - [1537] Edited by: MenanceWhite on 13/01/2008 22:07:49 Edited by: MenanceWhite on 13/01/2008 22:05:19 Originally by: The Djego web Oh, you misread my post. I meant if he could come up with any Amarr ships that uses medium pulse laser while at the same time the enemy has a large need of webbing that ship. Arbie don't use laser Maller use AC Unless your cap skills and such are 5, Omen would have cap problems. Also, how do I keep good dps while using crystal that gives me 12+km optimal (overheated web 13km) and 3 light drones? In fact, I'm not even sure how well those turrets track while youre using speedtank(might track well, I just don't like messing with numbers/efbull**) The battlecruisers and command ships are heavy already Recons use EW/Drones HICs have awesome tank, it'd be a waste not to fit for awesome tanking while gangmates deal damage while you just hold that someone down. Which leaves HACs Just how popular are nano zealots either ways? Basicly, I'm just trying to tell that "but hey you can shoot things with "close range more damage" medium turrets outside web range" is'nt that much of an valid counter argument for "Pulse have midrange and lower tracking which sucks." Even if, what about frigates of BS? If fact you can use fit close range crystals into Beam lasers to deal more damage while outside webrange, but then you lose even more tracking - I'm reeeeaaallly unsure about speedtank at that point. --- Originally by:** Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.13 22:09:00 - [1538] Med range is valuable so long as you arent alone. The issue is the penalties on the smaller ships to attain these medium ranges[which arent all that impressive anyway]
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.13 22:10:00 - [1539] Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 13/01/2008 21:05:31 Originally by: MenanceWhite Originally by: Cpt Branko post But name amarr ships using medium sized pulse lasers that you'd pvp with. That you really would need to web. Nano Zealot? You can even nano a Omen quite good and the last thing you need for a setup that works outside of Web Range is a Web. Nano Zealot is nothing funny when you meet one that is piloted right. Actualy Omen works better speed fitted than tanked because it simply lacks the Grid for a aceptable combination of Gank and Tank. Dont know where you saw nanoOmens - i like photo of them This setups just imposible. Cap for mwd and lasers (were talking about pure amarr build without AC, right?). You need 2 capboosters for this setups (so no web and scrambler), and i doubt that you will have at least 3 km/s for nano config, so even med drones and missiles kill you. Zealot (not mention omen) is not vaga - it much slower. Its not demios and have no mwd bonus. Its not even droneboat to use nosfs and drones for damage. Nanoconfig its just flying fun (like BC and 100mn mwd - try it)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 07:37:00 - [1540] Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 13/01/2008 21:05:31 Originally by: MenanceWhite Originally by: Cpt Branko post But name amarr ships using medium sized pulse lasers that you'd pvp with. That you really would need to web. Nano Zealot? You can even nano a Omen quite good and the last thing you need for a setup that works outside of Web Range is a Web. Nano Zealot is nothing funny when you meet one that is piloted right. Actualy Omen works better speed fitted than tanked because it simply lacks the Grid for a aceptable combination of Gank and Tank. Have you actually tried a nano omen? I have, it stinks. Nano zeal is good for your own safety in fast roaming gangs but not a real solo bbq machine. You cant really nano and gank effectively without help in that thing. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice

McDonALTs	Posted - 2008.01.14 07:53:00 - [1541] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 13/01/2008 21:05:31 Originally by: MenanceWhite Originally by: Cpt Branko post But name amarr ships using medium sized pulse lasers that you'd pvp with. That you really would need to web. Nano Zealot? You can even nano a Omen quite good and the last thing you need for a setup that works outside of Web Range is a Web. Nano Zealot is nothing funny when you meet one that is piloted right. Actualy Omen works better speed fitted than tanked because it simply lacks the Grid for a aceptable combination of Gank and Tank. Have you actually tried a nano omen? I have, it stinks. Nano zeal is good for your own safety in fast roaming gangs but not a real solo bbq machine. You cant really nano and gank effectively without help in that thing. Doesent nano Zealot miss somthing like 80-90% of shots on a vagabond?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 11:11:00 - [1542] Originally by: McDonALTs Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 13/01/2008 21:05:31 Originally by: MenanceWhite Originally by: Cpt Branko post But name amarr ships using medium sized pulse lasers that you'd pvp with. That you really would need to web. Nano Zealot? You can even nano a Omen quite good and the last thing you need for a setup that works outside of Web Range is a Web. Nano Zealot is nothing funny when you meet one that is piloted right. Actualy Omen works better speed fitted than tanked because it simply lacks the Grid for a aceptable combination of Gank and Tank. Have you actually tried a nano omen? I have, it stinks. Nano zeal is good for your own safety in fast roaming gangs but not a real solo bbq machine. You cant really nano and gank effectively without help in that thing. Doesent nano Zealot miss somthing like 80-90% of shots on a vagabond? Also, dont get me started on the redicilous em resists on minmatar t2 armor. slap a eanm and dc and whoops youre above 90%, its stupid. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 12:42:00 - [1543] Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 12:44:54 Originally by: PeacefullNub Dont know where you saw nanoOmens - i like photo of them This setups just imposible. Cap for mwd and lasers (were talking about pure amarr build without AC, right?). You need 2 capboosters for this setups (so no web and scrambler), and i doubt that you will have at least 3 km/s for nano config, so even med drones and missiles kill you. Zealot (not mention omen) is not vaga - it much slower. Its not demios and have no mwd bonus. Its not even droneboat to use nosfs and drones for damage. Nanoconfig its just flying fun (like BC and 100mn mwd - try it) Sometimes I just wonder if somebody that post things like this even fly Amarr Ships. The Omen is a Tier 2 Cruiser it is slower than the Stabber but have mutch better Range(on T1 Guns this is a real huge advantage). Also it does far more damage with T1 Guns because of the Range advantage. Also like the Carcal it dont tanks well. And yes Stabber can run on MWD infinite and has 100% Damage with Guns when the Ship is 3000 m/s fast. Well as someone that can fly a Stabber I can tell it is not. A Nano Omen goes about 1800-2000+ m/s it uses the speed to yust stay out of Web Range not to speedtank mutch. Also It can diffrent to the Stabber run MWD and Tank(It at least reps more than the passive Recharge of a Stabber) with the Cap Booster nearly infinite because of the big Cargo hold. Setup: 4x named Focused Medium Beams(or T2 Focused Puls with Scorch) Assault Luncher(usily Kinetic or Termal Missles) 10 MN MWD Medium Cap Booster T2 Warp Disrupter T2 Small Armor Repper II EANM II DC II Nanofiber II named PDU(for Powergrid reasons, aswell as for a little Shild Buffer) 1 Axuillary Truster Rig 3x Small T2 Hobos Against Drones you can use the Missles and your own drones aswell as a single MWD burst to leave sub MWD Speed Drones behind and kill them with the Lasers. It is no real solopawnmobiel and can¦t run that easy like the Stabber but it can handle Frigs and slower Short Range Cruisers quite well. When it comes to gangs this Setup can easily deliver damage up to 30km(even with T1 Guns) quite Instant and is very strong in removing Frigs quite fast. As you mentioned what it is not, well It is a small Laser Cruiser with a good range and a ok Speed without chance of a serious Tank. What the Omen needs is mostly grid to fit a real Tank or big Weapons for a Gank Setup. So it is atm not a good Tank and not a real Gank Ship but well Stabber and Carcal are also bad in this roles. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 14:03:00 - [1544] Originally by: The Djego Dude I know that fit looks like its going to work in theory, but it doesnt. Its subpar to a stabber. Youre forgetting something called agility. That omen setup wont work, a stabber will do the same job million times better. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 14:27:00 - [1545] Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 14:33:41 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: The Djego Dude I know that fit looks like its going to work in theory, but it doesnt. Its subpar to a stabber. Youre forgetting something called agility. That omen setup wont work, a stabber will do the same job million times better. It does with Barrage, T2 Guns, and Falloffrigs. Even then it has less Range(and shoots in deep Falloff). Also it runs out of Cap quite fast, has less Drones and less DPS. I can use a Stabber even with T1 Guns and get kills(and the Damage is far subpar to the Omen when shooting at 12-13km). Well yes the agility is bader compared to the Stabber but I can use the MWD as long as I need it(something the Stabber can¦t) aswell as I can resist Nos/Neuts and can tank more(compared to a Stabber). The stabber can tackle better and run better but when it comes to something called killing a Ship it is quite subpar to a Omen. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
Brother Welcome	Posted - 2008.01.14 14:28:00 - [1546] Edited by: Brother Welcome on 14/01/2008 14:29:32 My efforts in game fitting Amarr BBs and CRs experientially supports the OP's findings. Devs need a cogent reason not to attend to it. Would it work to leave the ships as is, but adjust laser crystals to lower energy costs and provide a choice between more EM or more Therm? Replace all those meaningless incremental range differences with something that matters.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.14 14:42:00 - [1547] Originally by: The Djego Sometimes I just wonder if somebody that post things like this even fly Amarr Ships. ... Dont realy know what to answer. I flied omen long ago (i just dont like maller design to use him). Omen and arbi were my favorite cruisers. I allso fly minmatar cruisers (all amarrs have to crosstrain something, you know.) so i can compare them. and... Some questions to you: Why ppls use nanosetups (i like to hear your answer)? What use have nanoships in fleet fights? What use have "nano"omen when even med drones and allmost all missiles damages you? How long can you tank 5 hammerheads I(120 dps) on omen with 1 adaptive and small reph? How long it takes to kill all of them with 1 assault missile? Do you realy think that pulses with Scorch have use for nanosetups? Show me some examples when nanoomen could be better than any other cruiser (with 90kk isk fit)
Jonny MoJo Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:11:00 - [1548] Edited by: Jonny MoJo on 14/01/2008 15:16:22 Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: The Djego Sometimes I just wonder if somebody that post things like this even fly Amarr Ships. ... Dont realy know what to answer. I flied omen long ago (i just dont like maller design to use him). Omen and arbi were my favorite cruisers. I allso fly minmatar cruisers (all amarrs have to crosstrain something, you know.) so i can compare them. and... Some questions to you: Why ppls use nanosetups (i like to hear your answer)? What use have nanoships in fleet fights? What use have "nano"omen when even med drones and allmost all missiles damages you? How long can you tank 5 hammerheads I(120 dps) on omen with 1 adaptive and small reph? How long it takes to kill all of them with 1 assault missile? Do you realy think that pulses with Scorch have use for nanosetups? Show me some examples when nanoomen could be better than any other cruiser (with 90kk isk fit) The Djego uses his friends account to play amarr as his account only has a low SP amarr alt. He does not have any real pvp experience and most of German Eve Forums laugh at his useless posts. He really is a NPCer who thinks he knows pvp because he shot some guy in a giant blob. Oh, and he does not fly omens either when he uses his friends account. D2 alliance was once full of "eve experts" who think they know eve from the safety of carebear haeven. We all still laugh at them on german forums though Refresh for next Real life CCP Sig(21 Total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:17:00 - [1549] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: The Djego Sometimes I just wonder if somebody that post things like this even fly Amarr Ships. ... Dont realy know what to answer. I flied omen long ago (i just dont like maller design to use him). Omen and arbi were my favorite cruisers. I allso fly minmatar cruisers (all amarrs have to crosstrain something, you know.) so i can compare them. and... Some questions to you: Why ppls use nanosetups (i like to hear your answer)? What use have nanoships in fleet fights? What use have "nano"omen when even med drones and allmost all missiles damages you? How long can you tank 5 hammerheads I(120 dps) on omen with 1 adaptive and small reph? How long it takes to kill all of them with 1 assault missile? Do you realy think that pulses with Scorch have use for nanosetups? Show me some examples when nanoomen could be better than any other cruiser (with 90kk isk fit) 1. Because the only advantage of the Omen is range and and Speed. If you tank it you will get killed my most of the other short range Cruisers because they are better in this. Im not someone that Nanos all ships. It is simply the way the Ship worked best to for me. If you can fly a Minmatar pls well explain your own question again. 2. Tacklers and anti Support. But mostly I speeking of smaller Gangs where Speed and Range can realy make a diffrence between Ships. 3. Well not direct but indirect you awnser with this question that you have not tryed the Ship in this way. Missles do bad DPS, also the Ships using Missles(are often Shild tanked, beside some Minmatar Ships). Also Drones are not that powerfull as you think. 4. Long enugh to kill them. A MWD burst will bring you the Ability to kill them off because they start her MWD later. Also If you can¦t tank the Drones kill them first, or disengage simple as that. You can kill Drones in less than 60 Seconds depends how mutch the other Pilote is focused on rescoping them. 5. Yes Scorch Puls are real good because of the huge Optimal Range. Shure the tracking is not that good as with Aks but you will hit Frigs and Cruisers outside of 10km when they try to catch you(low Trasversal) or when you Orbit them without MWD. Again real suprised to get this kind of Question from a Amarr that also can fly Minmatar. 6. As long i can recall there is not Ship(at least T1) that beats every other at all situations. The real question is can I win with a close range setup against a Rupture, Thorax or Vexor. The simple awnser is mostly no because I have a problem with Cap, Grid and Tank and Gank. Show me a example where a other Crusier with the 90kk Fitting is better than any other Cruiser. You are still one Fitting short. Also if you are realy fly Minmatar Ships it is very suprising that you can¦t recognise the advantage of Range and Speed. I don¦t say the Omen is nber or a solopawnmobile, I yust can¦t stand all this "Omen is pure crap" statements without bringing Fittings and PVP Situations in where a Omen is usefull. And yes the ship has Issues(as stated before) but everbody posting here only has one opinion(and a realy bad backup to prove it) and this is yust bad. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:20:00 - [1550] Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 15:25:04 Originally by: Failjojo The Djego uses his friends account to play amarr as his account only has a low SP amarr alt. He does not have any real pvp experience and most of German Eve Forums laugh at his useless posts. He really is a NPCer who thinks he knows pvp because he shot some guy in a giant blob. Oh, and he does not fly omens either when he uses his friends account. D2 alliance was once full of "eve experts" who think they know eve from the safety of carebear haeven. We all still laugh at them on german forums though Wow serios flame form a Alt posting with a Alt. At least I am constructive and don¦t troll and I suprised quite a bit that my Opinion is so diffrent from other ones, that state they are so mutch better in palying Amarr than I am but to shy to post with her Mains. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.

Jonny MoJo Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:35:00 - [1551] Edited by: Jonny MoJo on 14/01/2008 15:39:37 Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 15:25:04 Originally by: Failjojo The Djego uses his friends account to play amarr as his account only has a low SP amarr alt. He does not have any real pvp experience and most of German Eve Forums laugh at his useless posts. He really is a NPCer who thinks he knows pvp because he shot some guy in a giant blob. Oh, and he does not fly omens either when he uses his friends account. D2 alliance was once full of "eve experts" who think they know eve from the safety of carebear haeven. We all still laugh at them on german forums though Wow serios flame form a Alt posting with a Alt. At least I am constructive and don¦t troll and I suprised quite a bit that my Opinion is so diffrent from other ones, that state they are so mutch better in palying Amarr than I am but to shy to post with her Mains. Give it a break. Look - your nano omen setup is useless, and if it was shooting a stabber, it would miss 95% of its shots. Amarr just dont have the close range tracking on turrets to pull off nano setups with. EFT warriors like you and the rest of Anti-Amarr does not show you % of missed shots. So go back to german forums so we can laugh more at you there. You mod friend on german forum also thinks low of you, as you tried to track my ip. Not gonna happen Refresh for next Real life CCP Sig(21 Total)
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:40:00 - [1552] Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 15:43:41 Originally by: Failjojo Edited by: Jonny MoJo on 14/01/2008 15:36:41 Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 15:25:04 Originally by: Failjojo The Djego uses his friends account to play amarr as his account only has a low SP amarr alt. He does not have any real pvp experience and most of German Eve Forums laugh at his useless posts. He really is a NPCer who thinks he knows pvp because he shot some guy in a giant blob. Oh, and he does not fly omens either when he uses his friends account. D2 alliance was once full of "eve experts" who think they know eve from the safety of carebear haeven. We all still laugh at them on german forums though Wow serios flame form a Alt posting with a Alt. At least I am constructive and don¦t troll and I suprised quite a bit that my Opinion is so diffrent from other ones, that state they are so mutch better in palying Amarr than I am but to shy to post with her Mains. Give it a break. Look - your nano omen setup is useless, and if it was shooting a stabber, it would miss 95% of its shots. Amarr just dont have the close range tracking on turrets to pull off nano setups with. EFT warriors like you and the rest of Anti-Amarr does not show you % of missed shots. So go back to german forums so we can laugh more at you there. Wow again awsome facts to prove me wrong, well spoken with so mutch experience that I have to admit I can¦t disagree. What nice program telled you that you miss 95% of all Shots in real PVP? Yust want to know. Can It be that you had 100 unnerfed T2 Tracking Disruptors against you last time you used a Laser? Aswell you still try to flamebite me, give it up! ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
Jonny MoJo Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:47:00 - [1553] Edited by: Jonny MoJo on 14/01/2008 15:48:43 Originally by: The Djego What nice program telled you that you miss 95% of all Shots in real PVP? Yust want to know. Can It be that you had 100 unnerfed T2 Tracking Disruptors against you last time you used a Laser? The program was called eve tracking guide released by CCP. Did you also know that Megapulse + Conflag misses a webbed typhonn (20m/s transversal) at 1km with 60% of shots? Thats right - a massive 60% miss rate. Refresh for next Real life CCP Sig(21 Total)
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:56:00 - [1554] Originally by: Jonny MoJo The program was called eve tracking guide released by CCP. Did you also know that Megapulse + Conflag misses a webbed typhonn (20m/s transversal) at 1km with 60% of shots? Thats right - a massive 60% miss rate. JoJo, here's this for you, again. You cannot orbit the Amarr ship at 20m/s, the Typhoon isn't that fast. However, at 18.8m/s transversal (the max a Typhoon can get) and at 500m range, the Amarr ship can hit a Typhoon-sized target at 40% accuracy using Multifreq L and highest-tier pulses. At the same transversal/range/target, the Typhoon can hit with 50% accuracy using highest-tier ACs and EMP L. T2 ammo makes things much worse: The Amarr ship with Conflag L will hit a Typhoon-sized target at roughly 4% accuracy. The Minmatar ship with Hail L will hit a Typhoon-sized target at 10% accuracy at 500m. Of course, this is theorycraft and fully invalid in actual combat, because you WILL drop transversal or force the other guy to increase his sig radius to dreadnaught-size if he tries to keep it up. But a EFT PvP-er like you doesn't know this. At any rate, at 1km: 800mm AC II w EMP L: 88% accuracy Mega Pulse II w Multifreq L: 81% accuracy 800mm AC II w Hail L: 60% accuracy Mega Pulse II w Conflag L: 43-44% accuracy It's preety obvious that T2 high damage ammo is not worth using (damage-wise) except at about 3km+ range, where it'd start to overtake T1 ammo. At 3km range, all the ammos hit with over 90% consistency. Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Cpt Branko Because you are a utter noob if you don't know how to hit people reliably in webrange Approaching a ship to lower transversal is not always possible. You could be double/tripple webbed yourself as other ships have more mids than Amarr. Go on - Admit it - Amarr trackcing sucks and you know it. You are a total and complete noob if you think that you approach ships to lower transversal. It's painfully stupid. Other then that, you would have to be tripple webbed to enable the phoon to have any transversal on you. So we're talking multiple opponents. If you are fighting multiple battleships alone you are going to die anyway. If you think dual webs help, you are a noob again. What stops you from MWD-ing to get 8-10km/s out of your ship? Nothing. What stops the the Typhoon from using MWD to counteract this? Well, the fact his sig is now dreadnaught-sized and you track him perfectly fine. Learn to play and stop trolling, JoJo. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 15:58:00 - [1555] Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 15:59:19 Originally by: Jonny MoJo Edited by: Jonny MoJo on 14/01/2008 15:48:43 Originally by: The Djego What nice program telled you that you miss 95% of all Shots in real PVP? Yust want to know. Can It be that you had 100 unnerfed T2 Tracking Disruptors against you last time you used a Laser? The program was called eve tracking guide released by CCP. Did you also know that Megapulse + Conflag misses a webbed typhonn (20m/s transversal) at 1km with 60% of shots? Thats right - a massive 60% miss rate. Good to know, well to be honest a Electon Blaster with Void will miss 100% of all Shots against every Amarr Ship at 20km, even if it stands still. See now Im proven something that every Electon Blaster galente Ship will have no chance against a Megapuls Amarr Ship wich Conflag. Im not even need a extra Progamm for this. Still no awnser why a Puls or Beam should miss 95% of all times... ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.14 16:54:00 - [1556] Edited by: Goumindong on 14/01/2008 16:55:27 Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 14:33:41 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: The Djego Dude I know that fit looks like its going to work in theory, but it doesnt. Its subpar to a stabber. Youre forgetting something called agility. That omen setup wont work, a stabber will do the same job million times better. It does with Barrage, T2 Guns, and Falloffrigs. Even then it has less Range(and shoots in deep Falloff). Also it runs out of Cap quite fast, has less Drones and less DPS. I can use a Stabber even with T1 Guns and get kills(and the Damage is far subpar to the Omen when shooting at 12-13km). Well yes the agility is bader compared to the Stabber but I can use the MWD as long as I need it(something the Stabber can¦t) aswell as I can resist Nos/Neuts and can tank more(compared to a Stabber). The stabber can tackle better and run better but when it comes to something called killing a Ship it is quite subpar to a Omen. Without t2 guns, the Omen has no range advantage over the stabber. This is because the stabber goes from what is essentially a 0 range penalty on fusion to a 50% bonus on barrage. Lasers go from a 50% penatly to a 50% bonus. I.E. the stabber gains ~50% range, the Omen gains a 300% increase in range. Quote: 4x named Focused Medium Beams(or T2 Focused Puls with Scorch) Assault Luncher(usily Kinetic or Termal Missles) 10 MN MWD T2 Medium Cap Booster T2 Warp Disrupter T2(Tracking Computer in Gangs) Small Armor Repper II EANM II DC II Nanofiber II named PDU(for Powergrid reasons, aswell as for a little Shild Buffer) 1 Axuillary Truster Rig 3x Small T2 Hobos This is a really terrible nano omen fitting. Extraordinarily terrible.
Zaskarr Amarr Falling Stars Squadron	Posted - 2008.01.14 17:01:00 - [1557] why is it bad? Just curious... __________________ How do I shot web?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 17:06:00 - [1558] Originally by: Zaskarr why is it bad? Just curious... Because a small gang of drones will make short work of that crummy tank and its not really fast enough to gain anything from it. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.01.14 17:12:00 - [1559] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Zaskarr why is it bad? Just curious... Because a small gang of drones will make short work of that crummy tank and its not really fast enough to gain anything from it. A Megathron is a subpar ship, because a small gang of Titans will make short work of that crummy tank and it's not really agile enough to warp away even with warning. I've seen it happen. Megathron = fail.
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 17:13:00 - [1560] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 14/01/2008 16:55:27 Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 14:33:41 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: The Djego Dude I know that fit looks like its going to work in theory, but it doesnt. Its subpar to a stabber. Youre forgetting something called agility. That omen setup wont work, a stabber will do the same job million times better. It does with Barrage, T2 Guns, and Falloffrigs. Even then it has less Range(and shoots in deep Falloff). Also it runs out of Cap quite fast, has less Drones and less DPS. I can use a Stabber even with T1 Guns and get kills(and the Damage is far subpar to the Omen when shooting at 12-13km). Well yes the agility is bader compared to the Stabber but I can use the MWD as long as I need it(something the Stabber can¦t) aswell as I can resist Nos/Neuts and can tank more(compared to a Stabber). The stabber can tackle better and run better but when it comes to something called killing a Ship it is quite subpar to a Omen. Without t2 guns, the Omen has no range advantage over the stabber. This is because the stabber goes from what is essentially a 0 range penalty on fusion to a 50% bonus on barrage. Lasers go from a 50% penatly to a 50% bonus. I.E. the stabber gains ~50% range, the Omen gains a 300% increase in range. Quote: 4x named Focused Medium Beams(or T2 Focused Puls with Scorch) Assault Luncher(usily Kinetic or Termal Missles) 10 MN MWD T2 Medium Cap Booster T2 Warp Disrupter T2(Tracking Computer in Gangs) Small Armor Repper II EANM II DC II Nanofiber II named PDU(for Powergrid reasons, aswell as for a little Shild Buffer) 1 Axuillary Truster Rig 3x Small T2 Hobos This is a really terrible nano omen fitting. Extraordinarily terrible. 1. I was refering the Range Advantage of Beams, since Focused Puls without Scorch will be not that hot outside of Web Range, I tested it myself and get easily tanked away by a Vexor. I used Mircrowave M. 2. I know, that this setup is far away from beeing a***ie Cutter. But it at least worked better as a Plated AB Setup I tryed before. Besides mayby seeing that the Setup is bad state me for not beeing a EFT Warrior since i build this setup after several testruns with a frind of mine. Also it is still work in progress and I simply prove my points. I mostly wellcome construktive changes to the fitting. I relayed on a Cap Booster instead of Shild Extender(common Nano Tank) because of the constant cap use of the Laser combined with the Cap use for the MWD and put in the DC, EANM and the SAR II to add at least some kind of survibilty since the Armor and Shild Buffer is very small. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by:** Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.

Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:02:00 - [1561] Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Zaskarr why is it bad? Just curious... Because a small gang of drones will make short work of that crummy tank and its not really fast enough to gain anything from it. A Megathron is a subpar ship, because a small gang of Titans will make short work of that crummy tank and it's not really agile enough to warp away even with warning. I've seen it happen. Megathron = fail. Lets not be morons and stay within the same ship class. A couple of medium drones arent unrealistic opponents in cruiser class. A couple of mediums would decimate that tank before you can kill em off. You fail, troll somewhere else. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
OfficerFarva Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:20:00 - [1562] Edited by: OfficerFarva on 14/01/2008 19:19:59 V.Good read - This has stopped me complaining about how bad the Tempest/Maelstrom/Typhoon are. This has really opened my eyes ^^
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:48:00 - [1563] Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 19:54:08 Ok lets get back to the Topic with my Omen vs Drones. Only Thorax or Vexor can blow out a full wing of Medium Drones. Lets look Thorax fist. Ok my Ship is faster and he only can push Out real Damage up to about 10-12km. So if I can kill the Drones i will preaty mutch win because the Thorax has no other Damage surce to hurt me if I keep him out of Web Range. The Drones including my Repping, HP and Resistance will kill me in about 90-120 Seconds. That leads me to: a. try to kill him in this Time. b. try to kill his Drones in this Time(3 Small Drones + Missles can kill Drones fast) c. make a Run Against a Vexor my is timeframe about 45-60 Seconds(Dronebonus, Replacements etc). So I will mostly try to run because killing the Drones in this short Time is hard. What would a Stabber do in the same Fights. Against the Throax well you have also to kill the Drones if you want to put the MWD off and and hit with the Aks. Also the Thorax can use its MWD longer than the Stabber and can force the Stabber to permaspeedboost or close to that. Also Aks will track better but make less Damage than the Lasers against the Drones. Against the Vexor well the same. But a extra Wing of light Drones/replacements make it took longer. Also the Stabber has preaty mutch not the Option to try to kill a other Cruiser before its Tanks breaks against Drones because its low DPS(at least with T1 Guns and Amno). So there is yust the option to try to kill the Drones or run. Also even against Valkyres/Warrior my Omen got a better tank because of the Repper that I can use without mutch trouble because of the Cap Booster. OMG Lyria has a new vid time for a Download ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.14 20:17:00 - [1564] Edited by: PeacefullNub on 14/01/2008 20:20:26 The Djego - im a noob but: Nanosetups used not to keep distance (not only). Its a kind of tanking when enemy cannot shoot you with closerange weapon, missed with long due transversal, cannot use heavy (>1500 m/s) and med (>3150 km/s) drones (if you could tank lights), cannot damage (or do partial damage) you with heavy missiles. All nanoships are solomobiles. Nanoconfigs not used in fleetfights - you just cant keep your high transversal vs all enemies, and most closerange targets will ignore you. If they cannot hit you they just shoot your gangmate. So if you whant nanocruiser you need at least 3,150 km/s speed "on orbit" so only light drones and light missiles can hit you. You dont realy need nano on omen to have speed advantage in your setup - owerdrives work much better. Nanofibers used to aquire high orbiting speed. I think you underestimate drones. Doubt that you can kill 5 hammerheads that fast. Each of them has about 1500 effective hp and 50m signature. They have 120 dps (158 for t2) - It takes about 80 (50-60 for t2) sec for them to kill your omen. It takes about 5-7 s to lock and 15 seconds to kill 1 of them with asault launcher.If enemy used scoop/deploy tactics - you have no chances. So any ship that has drones (not mention droneboats) is extreamly dangerous for you. So - your nanoomen cant kill most gallentians. Lets go forward I dont know why you think that missiles do bad dps. Actualy they do best real dps in game (can chose damagetype), only disadvantage - their damage is delayed. Caracl with HAMs and 1 damagemod has same dps as your omen - but it can use your lowest resists. And your speed isnt enough to avoid damage. So your nanoomen cant kill missileboats (maybee it can kill moa if it has blastersetup and poor tank) Minmatars have better speed, better agility, better damage versatility - so i doubt that they are your targets. You have some chance vs ac rupture (even stabber with mwd has greater speed) But it still has 1 med + 4 lights drones and AC will still hits you on fallof (1/4 dps aprox but it still enough to help drones). Only amarr cruisers left. Arbi is a droneboat, maller has same range but better tank. Maybe you can kill another omen in tanking setup... So i must ask again - why you need to put 80kk isks in omen nanoconfig when it will be still useless? Even nano arbi is much better. Omen simply not suited for nano. Dont know why you try to show some nanosetups for worst t1 cruiser in the game - it still be worst nanocruiser. I agree that having speed advantage to stay out of enemy optimal is good, but not for THAT price.
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 21:02:00 - [1565]
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 21:18:00 - [1566] Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 21:18:25 Originally by: PeacefullNub strange stuff 1. The Drones have to travel to you, not everyone has maxed Drone Skills(so it is mostly like 100-120 DPS) also you have they have to catch you again after pushing the MWD in Orbit. I realy think my timeframe is realistic. Also Drones that die or beeing rescopet lower the effective DPS. I also stated 3 Light Drones + the Assault Luncher, even Lasers when you shoot at the time the Drone tryes to catch up again. 2. this is more like 20 M(you can even use a bare T1 Cap booster makes no diffrence realy), The Rig is to preaty cheap. 3. 3km/s Orbit is nice to have but you won¦t hit with your Turrets at this Speed so you have to slow down the one way or the other If you realy wan¦t to put DPS on your Target. 4. Again you fly Minmatar and think that a Overdirve is better than a Nano when it comes to outmanuver a Target? I give you a hint they are not since you need mostly Agility to prevent a ship from sliping out of Scram Range or getting into Web Range by a fast turn. 5. 5 HAM Carcals are nearly untanked. Also the Omen has a very low Sigradius. I don¦t fear Shildtanks at PVP simply because the Omen will hit the lowest Resist for shure. I never seen a Carcal that can put out mutch hurt in my entire Eve live. 6. Blaster Moas got a very sick Tank most of the times. Since the Optimal Bonus the even tend to hit you form time to time. Don¦t underestemat this Setup untill you meet one in PVP. 7. If you realy think a Minmatar Ship with T1 Guns got better Damage you should get the Omen a second try. I can¦t realy EFT it but the Stabber with T1 guns will do about 50-70 DPS at 15km(ever tryed to kill something bigger than a Frig in under 3 Minutes?). True Story I fly one my own. Rupture has a bit more DPS because of its Drones at this Range but also gets preaty poor without T2 Weapons. I would agress a Stabber, simply because his Tank has 0% EM Resitance and he also does next to no Damage when he uses his MWD. Rupture depends on the Fitting, If it is slower and has T2 Weapons, i can still run if he got T1 Weapons he is mostly screwed(will take some minutes be no big deal). Like I sayed the Omen is not a Solopawnmobile, but I think it is not that bad as everybody claims(especialy when compared to Stabber or Carcal). What is the diffrence between EFT and real PVP -> Not everyone has Level 5 Skills, is perfect Fitted to conter you and will make some smaller or larger Mistakes that also tend to tell what player gets the Killmail and what player gets his Insurance Payed out.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.14 21:41:00 - [1567] Edited by: PeacefullNub on 14/01/2008 22:00:23 Originally by: The Djego 1. You use Polys on a T1 Cruiser and complain my Fitting price? of course My setup is teoretical - il be realy surprised if someone will rig omen with polycapbons. I use this just to show why Stabber is better - it can reach 3500 without any rigs. Originally by: The Djego 3. I think you preat mutch miss the fact that you have to put the MWD of if you orbit to hit anything with the guns that not folows you because of a thing called Trasversal. as i allready said - this is teoretical setup. Omen just dont suited for nano. It may have low speed an decent tank or great speedtank and low dps. Originally by: The Djego 4. The small Cap Booster will barely power your Lasers you will cap out in 1-2 Minutes if you need to use the MWD. 4 minutes in my setup - 2 minutes in yours (sry, my mistake - of course it med capbooster) Originally by: The Djego 5. You mentioned that a real Nano Fitting needs Snakes. Someone that fly Minmatar can say you here you need the snakes only to envade, not to fight. I said that nanoOmen need snakeset (at least lowgrade) becouse he is to slow compared with any other nanohip. Why you allways try to switch subject? Originally by: The Djego 6. Im preaty sorry but I see a EFT Fitting in front of me that is not tested on the Server... Did i said that this is real fitting? I just said that this is real nanoomen fit. Of course no one will fly that thing becouse there is many better opportunities. Edited Originally by: The Djego 2. this is more like 20 M(you can even use a bare T1 Cap booster makes no diffrence realy), The Rig is to preaty cheap. your omen setup is 80-90kk isk. Belive me - i know prices on faction pds - you need ts/db pds to make at least pulses setup work (beam setup has no cpu to fit btw). About realistic: I dont see a logic - we could compare only 5 lvl vs 5 lvl skills. Or you suggested that perfect omen (and you must have many 5 lvl skills for your fit) is "not that bad" becouse it can kill some cruiser with lower skills? You dont need omen for that case...
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 22:02:00 - [1568] Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 22:04:18 Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: The Djego 1. You use Polys on a T1 Cruiser and complain my Fitting price? of course My setup is teoretical - il be realy surprised if someone will rig omen with polycapbons. I use this just to show why Stabber is better - it can reach 3500 without any rigs. Originally by: The Djego 3. I think you preat mutch miss the fact that you have to put the MWD of if you orbit to hit anything with the guns that not folows you because of a thing called Trasversal. as i allready said - this is teoretical setup. Omen just dont suited for nano. It may have low speed an decent tank or great speedtank and low dps. Originally by: The Djego 4. The small Cap Booster will barely power your Lasers you will cap out in 1-2 Minutes if you need to use the MWD. 4 minutes in my setup - 2 minutes in yours (sry, my mistake - of course it med capbooster) Originally by: The Djego 5. You mentioned that a real Nano Fitting needs Snakes. Someone that fly Minmatar can say you here you need the snakes only to envade, not to fight. I said that nanoOmen need snakeset (at least lowgrade) becouse he is to slow compared with any other nanohip. Why you allways try to switch subject? Originally by: The Djego 6. Im preaty sorry but I see a EFT Fitting in front of me that is not tested on the Server... Did i said that this is real fitting? I just said that this is real nanoomen fit. Of course no one will fly that thing becouse there is many better opportunities. 1. Well I used a real Fitting. Yes it is in my Hangar. You try to fit a T1 Cruiser for 120 M to show that a other T1 Cruiser is better??? You realy think It is all about the Speed and by this one atribute the Stabber is better than the Omen? Also you mentioned you can fly a Stabber. This makes your Post well, lets say strange. 3. No it don¦t have low speed and deacend Tank. It has a poor Tank against a other short Range Cruiser as soon as you enter Web Range, yust like Stabber and Carcal. 5. As sayed before Snakes only help to envade not to fight. 2km/s is reasonable to fight, and you can evade other Crisers that are don¦t fitted for speed. Im not switchen subject, I yust wonder what advantage the Snakes would bring to a Omen in combat besides running away. 6. Well I tested and fly my Fitting, this alone makes it mutch more "real". Calling your setup real Nano is thru in the way of envading Combat not winning it, I can say you that. To end this, you use a pure ETF Fitting(with a absurd Pricetag) to prove my "real" Fitting wrong? And claim that there are so many better options with other ships? The ship is not that bad in "real" PVP as you may think, I explained this before. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.14 22:48:00 - [1569] Honestly, Stabbers are only good for killing ratters/frigs/miners. It's basically a big frig. Nice for roaming due to speed and agility though. Trying to kill a skilled Thorax pilot is basically not going to happen, because he can boost for noticeably longer then you can. Vexor? Maybe, but hard because of the bloody drones. Arbitrator? See Vexor. Omen/Maller? Hit you at your operating range and hit your 0% shield EM resist, making you disengage or die. Rupture (with T2 autos)? Don't be absurd - sticking around a Rupture is total suicide. Moa? Maybe, they're tough as hell though and can land a few shots with Null M due to optimal bonus. Caracal? Outbuffers you, hits for basically comparable damage. I don't see a scenario where Stabber wins to a properly skilled combat cruiser at all really. Then again, I have only fought against Stabbers, not using them, so take me with a grain of salt. Everything works against noobs/badly fit ships though. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 22:58:00 - [1570] Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 23:04:05 Originally by: Cpt Branko Honestly, Stabbers are only good for killing ratters/frigs/miners. It's basically a big frig. Nice for roaming due to speed and agility though. Trying to kill a skilled Thorax pilot is basically not going to happen, because he can boost for noticeably longer then you can. Vexor? Maybe, but hard because of the bloody drones. Arbitrator? See Vexor. Omen/Maller? Hit you at your operating range and hit your 0% shield EM resist, making you disengage or die. Rupture (with T2 autos)? Don't be absurd - sticking around a Rupture is total suicide. Moa? Maybe, they're tough as hell though and can land a few shots with Null M due to optimal bonus. Caracal? Outbuffers you, hits for basically comparable damage. I don't see a scenario where Stabber wins to a properly skilled combat cruiser at all really. Then again, I have only fought against Stabbers, not using them, so take me with a grain of salt. Everything works against noobs/badly fit ships though. I can fully agree here. I used stabber quite a bit in 0.0 and I use Fleet Stabber in Low Sec. It is a big Frig, and you realy need 1 Falloffrigs to get some real DPS without T2 Guns and Barrage. If you realy meat a serious Cruiser Pilote with a good fitting you have to run(because you take damage or make no damage at all). The normal Stabber is realy not a I win button but still a good gang ship to provide a point and take some more hits than a Frig. On a Fleet Stabber you can fit a extra Shild Extender and a Cap Mod/Rig this realy improves the performance. When I look at my Fleet Stabber I got a 250 M Ship(including Fitting and Rigs) that can take one Frigs, Ceptors and some noobs in BCs. Yes it shares quite a bit advantages the Vaga has but the Damage is non of them because it lacks the Falloff Bonus. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.

PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.14 23:01:00 - [1571] Originally by: The Djego 1. Well I used a real Fitting. Yes it is in my Hangar.You try to fit a T1 Cruiser for 120 M to show that a other T1 Cruiser is better??? You realy think It is all about the Speed and by this one atribute the Stabber is better than the Omen? Also you mentioned you can fly a Stabber. This makes your Post well, lets say strange. Remove polycarbons if you dont like the price - 3k speed ist bad (but fast med drones will cach you). Anyway this discusion is pointless. Omen is worst t1 cruiser (even if it isnt that bad - it still worst). And it only slightly better in your config, but still worst compared to same configs for different cruisers. Originally by: The Djego /edit I youst mentioned I designed the Setup with AWU 3 since this is the Level my 2. Char has it fits without the PDU at AWU 4... sometimes EFT is still not to bad Is it possible that you fail at EFT? your truth - i remake your setup - all seams to be fine But im noob - i have right to make mistakes
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.14 23:16:00 - [1572] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 14/01/2008 23:16:09 Originally by: PeacefullNub Nanosetups used not to keep distance (not only). Its a kind of tanking when enemy cannot shoot you with closerange weapon, missed with long due transversal, cannot use heavy (>1500 m/s) and med (>3150 km/s) drones (if you could tank lights), cannot damage (or do partial damage) you with heavy missiles. Here you are talking about the Ishtar/Curse/Sacriledge/nano-Cerberus. Yes, those are the only ships really capable of what you describe (speedtanking in the full sense of the word). One of the best is, in fact, the Sacriledge; quite likely the best HAC around tbh. Very little transversal is needed to outrun cruiser/BS sized long range guns, and, in fact, versus those all you need is a Rupture with a web, orbit at 500m (MWD off, no need for it), and shred them. Long range guns fail to compete DPS-wise and have tracking ranging from horrible to utterly horrible. What ships like the Stabber do is mostly outrange their opponents, not out-track them; since in a turret ship, you are constrained with your own tracking, something drone-ships have no problem with (Ishtar) or missile ships (Sacriledge). Drones you just kill. Lights don't do enough DPS, and mediums you can kill with medium guns preety decently with a little flying around. Tricky? Yes. Doable? Yes. most people don't have close to max drone skills anyway, and this is the reason you use a buffer on your ship at any rate. Originally by: PeacefullNub So if you whant nanocruiser you need at least 3,150 km/s speed "on orbit" so only light drones and light missiles can hit you. All turret ships fail at hitting at such orbits. The idea in turret ships is to keep at sufficent range that the damage you take is absorbed by your buffer tank while you kill them. Plus, you get to disengage unless the target can MWD longer then you can or something of the sort. Non-turret ships can orbit around, but they're typically slower. Originally by: PeacefullNub You dont realy need nano on omen to have speed advantage in your setup - owerdrives work much better. Nanofibers used to aquire high orbiting speed. Pure speed is much less relevant then agility. Without a nano II, I could probably MWD up to you and web you in a Rupture before you get to light up your engines. Originally by: PeacefullNub Doubt that you can kill 5 hammerheads that fast. Each of them has about 1500 effective hp and 50m signature. They have 120 dps (158 for t2) - It takes about 80 (50-60 for t2) sec for them to kill your omen. It takes about 5-7 s to lock and 15 seconds to kill 1 of them with asault launcher.If enemy used scoop/deploy tactics - you have no chances. So any ship that has drones (not mention droneboats) is extreamly dangerous for you. So - your nanoomen cant kill most gallentians. You're overestimating drones. Most people don't have max drone skills to begin with (since they really require a ton of SP investment) and they do take a bit to get to you, making scoop&redeploy unfeasible. With guns and all on them, T1 drones pop incredibly fast. Droneboats are tougher due to drone bonuses, though. Originally by: PeacefullNub Lets go forward I dont know why you think that missiles do bad dps. Actualy they do best real dps in game (can chose damagetype), only disadvantage - their damage is delayed. Caracl with HAMs and 1 damagemod has same dps as your omen - but it can use your lowest resists. And your speed isnt enough to avoid damage. So your nanoomen cant kill missileboats (maybee it can kill moa if it has blastersetup and poor tank) Mmmm, HAM caracal has no tank at all and no speed. HAMs have fitting requirements that prevent them from being fitted on a Caracal unless it's a paper-thin setup, so if the guy is using HAMs, you've always got the option of going point-blank on him and trying to straight out-dps him. However, all nano-HACs except the sacriledge have a problem fighting missile boats. Originally by: PeacefullNub Minmatars have better speed, better agility, better damage versatility - so i doubt that they are your targets. You have some chance vs ac rupture (even stabber with mwd has greater speed) Exactly the other way around. Properly setup Rupture is suicide, total suicide; you can disengage, yes. Will it melt you really fast? Yes. Same goes for the Stabber. I'm very sure there is no concieveable Stabber setup to kill a Rupture, even if you fit falloff rigs. Then again, you will see the Stabber has problems with target selection himself, and the Omen he made is probably more likely to kill a Thorax or a Moa (maybe, possibly). Nano T1 cruisers are for killing ratters/noobs/frigs (or the dumb long-range inty/SB pilot or for killing AFs) imho. The Omen probably fares better because of the cap booster. To be honest, I see the Omen as not at all inferior to the Stabber. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 23:19:00 - [1573] Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 23:21:32 Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 23:19:53 Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: The Djego 1. Well I used a real Fitting. Yes it is in my Hangar.You try to fit a T1 Cruiser for 120 M to show that a other T1 Cruiser is better??? You realy think It is all about the Speed and by this one atribute the Stabber is better than the Omen? Also you mentioned you can fly a Stabber. This makes your Post well, lets say strange. Remove polycarbons if you dont like the price - 3k speed ist bad (but fast med drones will cach you). Anyway this discusion is pointless. Omen is worst t1 cruiser (even if it isnt that bad - it still worst). And it only slightly better in your config, but still worst compared to same configs for different cruisers. Originally by: The Djego /edit I youst mentioned I designed the Setup with AWU 3 since this is the Level my 2. Char has it fits without the PDU at AWU 4... sometimes EFT is still not to bad Is it possible that you fail at EFT? your truth - i remake your setup - all seams to be fine But im noob - i have right to make mistakes Why you call the Omen worst if you can¦t disprove me? Mutch other Cruiser are fitted for Gank/Tank because they are great in this fitting. Since the Omen is not one of them and I use more speed. Why should I not win the fight using all my advantages to put the enemy into a disadvantage(asuming a 1o1)? The Omen need more Grid to be more flexible with a tank or a Gank but my Fitting is not that bad and I can take on/survive all other T1 Cruisers out there that are not especialy fitted to beat me. What Cruisers can realy take on my fitting that a. are fast enught that I don¦t escape and b. can put serious hurt on me at 16-20km? Again why you on one hand call yourself ok because you are a noob(your words, not offence at all realy) and stat that im am wrong and the Omen is the worst T1 Crusiser in PVP? ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.14 23:21:00 - [1574] Originally by: The Djego I can fully agree here. I used stabber quite a bit in 0.0 and I use Fleet Stabber in Low Sec. It is a big Frig, and you realy need 1 Falloffrigs to get some real DPS without T2 Guns and Barrage. If you realy meat a serious Cruiser Pilote with a good fitting you have to run(because you take damage or make no damage at all). The normal Stabber is realy not a I win button but still a good gang ship to provide a point and take some more hits than a Frig. On a Fleet Stabber you can fit a extra Shild Extender and a Cap Mod/Rig this realy improves the performance. When I look at my Fleet Stabber I got a 250 M Ship(including Fitting and Rigs) that can take one Frigs, Ceptors and some noobs in BCs. Yes it shares quite a bit advantages the Vaga has but the Damage is non of them because it lacks the Falloff Bonus. Fully agreed, really. Fleet Stabbers are preety good, although I've had some limited success with a nano-Cynabal (lost one pirating drunk, re-joined a won fight w/out shields or armour for some reason). Falloff rig is a must, ofc, and the whole setup as it is now (changed it from the original one, the original one had nothing except speed mods so I could fit a recon probe launcher CPU-wise) is maybe 90ishM which isn't that horrible. This makes it a oversized inty with a probe launcher, preety lol, but a nice gang asset. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 23:40:00 - [1575] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: The Djego I can fully agree here. I used stabber quite a bit in 0.0 and I use Fleet Stabber in Low Sec. It is a big Frig, and you realy need 1 Falloffrigs to get some real DPS without T2 Guns and Barrage. If you realy meat a serious Cruiser Pilote with a good fitting you have to run(because you take damage or make no damage at all). The normal Stabber is realy not a I win button but still a good gang ship to provide a point and take some more hits than a Frig. On a Fleet Stabber you can fit a extra Shild Extender and a Cap Mod/Rig this realy improves the performance. When I look at my Fleet Stabber I got a 250 M Ship(including Fitting and Rigs) that can take one Frigs, Ceptors and some noobs in BCs. Yes it shares quite a bit advantages the Vaga has but the Damage is non of them because it lacks the Falloff Bonus. Fully agreed, really. Fleet Stabbers are preety good, although I've had some limited success with a nano-Cynabal (lost one pirating drunk, re-joined a won fight w/out shields or armour for some reason). Falloff rig is a must, ofc, and the whole setup as it is now (changed it from the original one, the original one had nothing except speed mods so I could fit a recon probe launcher CPU-wise) is maybe 90ishM which isn't that horrible. This makes it a oversized inty with a probe launcher, preety lol, but a nice gang asset. I agree Nano on a T1 basis is expensive and not realy powerfull. It is fun and it provides a chance to disengage most of the times. It depends most of the times to pick your target right and know what the ship can do against you. I survived a drunken 1 vs 7(3 Times ) but it is still a bad Idea to use a expensive ship in this condition. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.15 07:35:00 - [1576] I tried some cosmos missions today. Well about pulse lasers tracking: My char has motion prediction 3(noob char, right now focusing on support skills rather than gunnery). Fitting T2 medium pulse laser with normal ammo that does'nt give any tracking penalties I find myself missing around 50% of the shots. My target? A stationary sentry that my ship was orbitting with around 600~700m distance at 240m/s. Maybe I was just having bad luck, but it feels pretty stupid missing something stationary using small close-range turrets while flying at semi-slow speeds for an frig. Hoho awesome on close range frig v frig battles. Especially because the punisher is the fastest and most agile frig around --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.15 08:27:00 - [1577] Originally by: MenanceWhite I tried some cosmos missions today. Well about pulse lasers tracking: My char has motion prediction 3(noob char, right now focusing on support skills rather than gunnery). Fitting T2 medium pulse laser with normal ammo that does'nt give any tracking penalties I find myself missing around 50% of the shots. My target? A stationary sentry that my ship was orbitting with around 600~700m distance at 240m/s. Maybe I was just having bad luck, but it feels pretty stupid missing something stationary using small close-range turrets while flying at semi-slow speeds for an frig. Hoho awesome on close range frig v frig battles. Especially because the punisher is the fastest and most agile frig around I agree that missing a stationary target is silly by game Mechanic. Also I agree that Orbitting at 600-700m is silly to when using a Weapon that got a Optimal of 4-10km and a low Tracking. If you like close Orbits try Aks. If you like lasers use a bigger Orbit 3-5k will let you hit preaty decend with the biggest Small Puls Lasers in PVE. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
Spyder1226 Scare Tactics Cult of War	Posted - 2008.01.15 08:29:00 - [1578] Seriously, has there been an official response to this thread? Did I miss it?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.15 08:59:00 - [1579] Originally by: Spyder1226 Seriously, has there been an official response to this thread? Did I miss it? Nope ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.01.15 12:53:00 - [1580] How did this get on 2nd page? Better get it up on page 1 so ccp might stumble across it.

Andreask14 Alterum - Infinitus - Fabula Dragons Of Oceans	Posted - 2008.01.15 12:56:00 - [1581] CPP has most certainly already thought through the consequences of an amarr boost and deemed the probability of making 20% of the player base able to vanquish the other 80% with overpowered ships as too high to take action. Lets not forget that amarrians once ruled the galaxy, in both, backstory and actual game play. We cant let this happen again, can we ?
Ur235 Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2008.01.15 13:18:00 - [1582] Edited by: Ur235 on 15/01/2008 13:18:45 But amarr ships look the nicest so its all fair and square really you cant fly around in a ship that looks the owage and own with it it just wouldnt be right
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.15 20:45:00 - [1583] Originally by: PeacefullNub with 90kk isk fit What does this mean? Is this 90000, 900000, 9000000? Or...? ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
SirDanceAlot	Posted - 2008.01.15 21:14:00 - [1584] Originally by: Andreask14 CPP has most certainly already thought through the consequences of an amarr boost and deemed the probability of making 20% of the player base able to vanquish the other 80% with overpowered ships as too high to take action. Lets not forget that amarrians once ruled the galaxy, in both, backstory and actual game play. We cant let this happen again, can we ? You know thats the problem, if ccp fix amarr we will own because we have needed high skill to be in line with others and with fixed ships we'd steamroll peeps all over the galaxy muhaha
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.15 22:34:00 - [1585] Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: PeacefullNub with 90kk isk fit What does this mean? Is this 90000, 900000, 9000000? Or...? It is 90.000.000 ISK(90 Mill) and it was mostly a misunderstanding and not the right Price. Originally by: SirDanceAlot Originally by: Andreask14 CPP has most certainly already thought through the consequences of an amarr boost and deemed the probability of making 20% of the player base able to vanquish the other 80% with overpowered ships as too high to take action. Lets not forget that amarrians once ruled the galaxy, in both, backstory and actual game play. We cant let this happen again, can we ? You know thats the problem, if ccp fix amarr we will own because we have needed high skill to be in line with others and with fixed ships we'd steamroll peeps all over the galaxy muhaha Well I can own other People to because i have close to max Skills for a Mega. If Amarr would steamroll other races because the Player is highly speced in Amarr I have not problem with it(as it is the same at all races, even a fully Skilled Caldari Player will remove your Level 4 Skilled Mega without real problems). What Amarr needs is a general makeover(Lasers also) to get get a deacend performace(also on the T1 Ships without a DPS Bonus) without simply overpowering good Ships. There is to mutch diffrence between a Apoc/Gedon or a Prohecy/Harbinger that it could realy fixed with only changing one thing. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
Orgos Khenn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.15 23:12:00 - [1586] Why is this thread still alive?
Felysta Sandorn Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.15 23:22:00 - [1587] Originally by: Orgos Khenn Why is this thread still alive? Because Amarr is still broken! Latest Video, Click Here!
Felysta Sandorn Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.16 00:01:00 - [1588] The Bhaalgorn: I know it's not strictly an Amarr ship, but I've been looking at buying a faction BS recently, and the choices for Amarr PvP are pretty pitiful... There's the Apoc Navy Issue, absolutely no point in that ship, similar to the normal Apoc... Then there's the Nightmare, but you can't armour tank it, you can't nano it, so you're stuck with a shield tanking PvP ship, which is never good... So the only other choice is the Bhaalgorn... Now this is an interesting ship... It has very little damage potential, having no damage bonus (translating to the same DPS as the Apoc, which we all know has none), then hampers the DPS output further by having a very useful bonus involving energy vampires and neutralisers. So, as usual, here's another Amarr ship that has very useless bonuses. To get any sort of DPS, you have to use all eight turret points for large guns, but then you sacrifice an entire utility bonus. Alternatively, you could fit neutralisers and make use of that bonus, but then do no damage whatsoever. On top of this, as proved in the original post on the first page, it makes more sense to fit either blasters or autocannons to this sort of ship (ie Apoc type, with no damage bonuses for lasers, just cap bonuses). Making the special ability completely redundant. Now I was running the numbers as I usually do, and tried to put on the ship what I would buy to realistically fit it... In it's current state, this would be something like: 2x True Sansha LAR 3x True Sansha Hardeners True Sansha EANM Damage Control II 100mn MWD II Warp Disruptor II 2x True Sansha Webs True Sansha Cap Booster Then I got to the highs, and I thought I'd start by filling them with guns, then take a few off and put on some NOS/Neuts. I filled it with a rack of eight Dual Heavy Pulse Laser IIs, and it occurred to me that I had used all my CPU... By a hell of a lot... In fact, I was nearly 30 CPU over (653.44/625), and even had a KZA1000 in my mind... Now for those that don't fly Amarr, DHP use roughly 30 CPU a piece with a KZA1000 in (30.6 to be precise), whereas a NOS or Neut uses 40 and 32 respectively (for best named, 50 and 40 respectively for t2 or faction). Now I'm sure you can appreciate that that means this ship is nigh on impossible to fit. Now all the faction items used make the fit VERY conservative with CPU (the hardeners alone save 60 CPU), so I Decided to see what the difference would be if I took the above setup and made it all t2. It's not an unreasonable setup by any means... An average tank with extremely low DPS, but with a little extra web power than usual. So I changed all the modules to t2. And I looked back at the CPU... 747.44/625... Or without the CPU implant for guns? 755/625... That's 130 CPU short of a below average fit. Which translates to about 100 CPU lacking without skills. Well I thought about a plate setup, but it's a utility ship with no damage bonus, an Abaddon or even an Armageddon will easily outdamage the Bhaalgorn, so there's no point in doing that... So what? How about a buff for that too? The Geddon got an extra 25 CPU last year, but the Bhaalgorn was never given the same balance adjustment. And even so, 25 CPU is blatantly nowhere near enough what's needed to balance this ship. What do I propse? Change the role bonus to a 100% damage bonus to lasers Decrease the number of turret hardpoints from 8 to 4 Increase the CPU by 56 Decrease the number of highslots by 1 Increase the number of lowslots by 1 Increase the drone bay by 50m3 (leave bandwidth at 75) What would that do? Well, it would give you eight lowslots to play with, the same cap-for-guns bonus as before, but allow you to have three utility for neuts and/or nos. It would also allow for spare drones to be carried around, and allow you to actually fit the ship (CPU wise). It makes the following fitting possible: Lowslots and Midslots as before, plus True Sansha Heat Sink (in the new lowslot) 4x Dual Heavy Pulse Laser IIs 2x Heavy Nosferatu II Heavy Energy Neutraliser II This setup would only just fit with the CPU changes given, but again, the only way this works is by spending massive amounts of ISK on faction gear. The alternate with t2 gear would probably work with a Co-Processor in place of the Heat Sink, and with eight lowslots this doesn't nerf the tank as much as a CPU module would currently (and it is currently essential with the Bhaalgorn in it's current state). So what do these changes actually MEAN for the Bhaalgorn? Well with these changes, it gets a competitive tank, low DPS (the same as the Apoc), a useful web bonus, and a useful nos/neut bonus. These changes allow the Bhaalgorn to actually be fit in a way that uses all of it's bonuses, because now it's a pile of crap! Latest Video, Click Here!
Lord Bastian	Posted - 2008.01.16 00:09:00 - [1589] Perhaps the devs are using the Amarr in some twisted social experiment testing the limits of patience and the human tolerance for being totally ignored when making valid points to an obviously broken system. Lets face it: Amarr ='s D-/-/-/-/-> d
Orgos Khenn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.16 00:14:00 - [1590] Originally by: Lord Bastian Perhaps the devs are using the Amarr in some twisted social experiment testing the limits of patience and the human tolerance for being totally ignored when making valid points to an obviously broken system. Lets face it: Amarr ='s D-/-/-/-/-> d Maybe they're using the Amarr in some twisted social experiment to see if people will keep flying crappy ships and complaining about them, instead of just flying good ships...

Felysta Sandorn Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.16 00:16:00 - [1591] Post with your main... Latest Video, Click Here!
Orgos Khenn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.16 00:20:00 - [1592] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Post with your main... Hi.
Spyder1226 Scare Tactics Cult of War	Posted - 2008.01.16 01:17:00 - [1593] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Spyder1226 Seriously, has there been an official response to this thread? Did I miss it? Nope Thats what I thought, how can a post of over 1600 replies illude the CCP higher ups? Could we at least get an update or a "Yes we are still working to fix amarr, thank you for your patience." Or even some feedback from a higher up?
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.01.16 01:50:00 - [1594] Edited by: Ruciza on 16/01/2008 01:53:27 They know where Amarr needs a boost and have said so a million times. They consider Amarr fine, with only a few tweaks necessary. Their big problem is that it's difficult to communicate their design for Amarr to you, because you either do not want to fly it like that or cannot understand how the Amarr fleet wants to be flown. Imagine you have created a wonderful balance, but it's too difficult for many to understand. You can't go and tell your customers they're too stupid. That means with the Amarr boost they will tell you indirectly. But don't expect a real buff of laser damage or something.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.16 07:11:00 - [1595] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 16/01/2008 07:12:17 Originally by: Ruciza You can't go and tell your customers they're too stupid. That means with the Amarr boost they will tell you indirectly. Why doesnt the balance dev show us some nice graphs and calculations comparing lasers to other weapons? Thats a good way of showing if its balanced or not, but they havent done this. Question is, are they working at all, are they too dumb to make such a graph or dont they care to do it? Because sometimes i wonder if ANY calculations are behind nerfs/boosts/new ships considering abominations like eos and myrm dps and the nerfed status of lasers. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.16 12:02:00 - [1596] Originally by: Ruciza They know where Amarr needs a boost and have said so a million times. They consider Amarr fine, with only a few tweaks necessary. Then its not big deal for them to say it another time in this thread. Maybe just to show some respect to 1600 posts threas and to all pps who posted here? Originally by: Ruciza Their big problem is that it's difficult to communicate their design for Amarr to you, because you either do not want to fly it like that or cannot understand how the Amarr fleet wants to be flown. Its realy easy to comunicate. And it is essential for good gamedesigner to know gamers ideas and needs, just to create good game. If we (amarrs) dont whant to fly new design ships - this design is bad (for amarrs - maybe its good for caldary like khanid ships). If we (amarrs) cant understand their ballance - then ballance is broken (but maybe its good for another races to have heavily tanked easy frags). Becouse we fly this ships - not them. We can see how bad their designs in real combat and their balance in overall game situations. Originally by: Ruciza Imagine you have created a wonderful balance, but it's too difficult for many to understand. You can't go and tell your customers they're too stupid. That means with the Amarr boost they will tell you indirectly. If they will call all amarr players stupid and show us facts and proofs of that - then we are indeed stupid. But if they cant (just like many ppls who said "amarrs fine, stop whinning")- then they are stupid, dont you think so? And looks like only players showed some proofs that amarr ships are broken. Originally by: Ruciza But don't expect a real buff of laser damage or something. Do you tried to read this thread before posting nonsens like this? Or do you think that dps buff is only way to solve laser problem? Do you know what is laser problem btw? Lasers have problem with cap usage and with cap_reduction_bonus on ships. All other issues like tracking/em+termal damage/high fit reqs not essential. Of course they need some balancing - but only when cap usage and second ship bonus problems will be solved. I think that amarr problems only becouse ccp thinks your way: "amarrs are fine, they got nice_dps_on_paper so no buff for you. What, you dont need dps buff? You just stupid - everyone needs dps buff, we will just ignore you."
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.16 14:38:00 - [1597] Give promised oomph. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Toxic Waster	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:08:00 - [1598] bump
Orgos Khenn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:27:00 - [1599] Originally by: Toxic Waster bump Why? Amarr suck. Fly something else. Thread over. ----In before Jonny JoJo turns this into an Amarr whine----
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:42:00 - [1600] Edited by: PeacefullNub on 16/01/2008 17:42:46 Becouse... Originally by: Orgos Khenn Amarr suck. ..and we need to.. Originally by: Orgos Khenn Fly something else. Thx for bumping this thread :)

EliteSlave Minmatar Tau Ceti Global Production SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:47:00 - [1601] are we seriously up to 55 pages and not one dev response?
Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:48:00 - [1602] Originally by: EliteSlave are we seriously up to 55 pages and not one dev response? Why would a dev want to reply to 55 pages of baseless whines? ________________________________________________________________ Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
EliteSlave Minmatar Tau Ceti Global Production SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:51:00 - [1603] Originally by: Apocryphai Originally by: EliteSlave are we seriously up to 55 pages and not one dev response? Why would a dev want to reply to 55 pages of baseless whines? wow, i guess your not an Amarr Pilot, Amarr absolutely suck at everything they do, besides capitals.. give us 5 reasons as to why Amarr are a Viable Race and i can give you 50 reasons as to why they are not.
Orgos Khenn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.16 18:39:00 - [1604] Edited by: Orgos Khenn on 16/01/2008 18:42:25 Originally by: EliteSlave give us 5 reasons as to why Amarr are a Viable Race and i can give you 50 reasons as to why they are not. 1) You can crosstrain Caldari ships. 2) You can crosstrain Gallente ships. 3) You can crosstrain Minmatar ships. 4) You can crosstrain ORE ships. 5) You can crosstrain. Let's hear the 50 reasons and make them all entirely legitimate, entirely distinct, and well-typed, please. ADDENDUM: Reason 6, as you pointed out yourself, is that Amarr capital ships are actually pretty damn good. So, let me throw that in there. ----In before Jonny JoJo turns this into an Amarr whine----
Savant Hayt Minmatar The Reich	Posted - 2008.01.16 19:27:00 - [1605] Originally by: Orgos Khenn Edited by: Orgos Khenn on 16/01/2008 18:42:25 Originally by: EliteSlave give us 5 reasons as to why Amarr are a Viable Race and i can give you 50 reasons as to why they are not. 1) You can crosstrain Caldari ships. 2) You can crosstrain Gallente ships. 3) You can crosstrain Minmatar ships. 4) You can crosstrain ORE ships. 5) You can crosstrain. Let's hear the 50 reasons and make them all entirely legitimate, entirely distinct, and well-typed, please. lol, the only good things about amarr is that they are in a game where u can train another race because they suck so hard?
EliteSlave Minmatar Tau Ceti Global Production SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 19:39:00 - [1606] Originally by: Orgos Khenn Edited by: Orgos Khenn on 16/01/2008 18:42:25 Originally by: EliteSlave give us 5 reasons as to why Amarr are a Viable Race and i can give you 50 reasons as to why they are not. 1) You can crosstrain Caldari ships. 2) You can crosstrain Gallente ships. 3) You can crosstrain Minmatar ships. 4) You can crosstrain ORE ships. 5) You can crosstrain. Let's hear the 50 reasons and make them all entirely legitimate, entirely distinct, and well-typed, please. ADDENDUM: Reason 6, as you pointed out yourself, is that Amarr capital ships are actually pretty damn good. So, let me throw that in there. None of these are Viable Reasons to fly Amarr Ships.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.16 20:49:00 - [1607] Edited by: PeacefullNub on 16/01/2008 20:51:11 Originally by: Orgos Khenn 5) You can crosstrain. Wow! Now i see the light! We all must crosstrain! But wait a minute - we allready crosstrained different race and our native amarr ships still sucks. Oh Godly One - your sloution didnt helped - burn him! No, realy - do you seriously think that there is no difference betwin ignoring problem and trying to solve it? Maybe you tried to be original? I dissapoint you - youre not the first, and not the last TROLL in this thread. Lets get back to constructive discussions (at least its better than simply bumping). I like to hear your thoughts about rebalancing amarr/gallente stealthbombers. I know that CCP loves missiles and tries to put them on every ship but... is there any way to use turrets on bombers (and what bonuses they must have for that role)? Or maybe just better bomb bonuses instead of cruises?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.16 20:52:00 - [1608] Originally by: Orgos Khenn Edited by: Orgos Khenn on 16/01/2008 18:42:25 Originally by: EliteSlave give us 5 reasons as to why Amarr are a Viable Race and i can give you 50 reasons as to why they are not. 1) You can crosstrain Caldari ships. 2) You can crosstrain Gallente ships. 3) You can crosstrain Minmatar ships. 4) You can crosstrain ORE ships. 5) You can crosstrain. Let's hear the 50 reasons and make them all entirely legitimate, entirely distinct, and well-typed, please. ADDENDUM: Reason 6, as you pointed out yourself, is that Amarr capital ships are actually pretty damn good. So, let me throw that in there. LoL, selfpwnd. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Aindrias Amarr Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.01.17 07:46:00 - [1609] Edited by: Aindrias on 17/01/2008 07:48:29 First Page Please EDIT Yes, i will keep doing thing.. thank you and goodnight
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.17 08:20:00 - [1610] Originally by: EliteSlave are we seriously up to 55 pages and not one dev response? Wich is funny, because they answer smaller issues then this normally. Atleast they used to. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian

BekStorm	Posted - 2008.01.17 08:49:00 - [1611] Edited by: BekStorm on 17/01/2008 08:49:31 CCP doesn't care about Amarr people
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.17 08:52:00 - [1612] I understand them in some case. Its much easier to avoid a problem and pretend that everything is fine, then admiting that you made a mistake and ignored it for 3,5 years. Even for selfrespect. So instead of fixing amarrs they tried to boost/nerf other races to fix game balance indirectly. Devs: Its realy no shame to admit your own fault. It takes more strenght to face a problem, then to simply close your eyes.
HaulandHaul Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.01.17 13:43:00 - [1613] Now lets talk about the rediculous amount of range and tracking amarr has, shall we? snip Modifying another player's signature graphic to insult them is trolling. -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected])
Felysta Sandorn Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.17 13:45:00 - [1614] Originally by: HaulandHaul Now lets talk about the rediculous amount of range and tracking amarr has, shall we? You mean the shortest range they have for beams and the worst tracking they have for pulses? Yeah, let's talk about that... Latest Video, Click Here!
Andreask14 Alterum - Infinitus - Fabula Dragons Of Oceans	Posted - 2008.01.17 13:46:00 - [1615] I crosstrained to ORE because they are the best ships for the purpose they have and they were never nerfed, ever and never will be. Except for these declining mineral prices these days.
Orlenda Enterprise Shipyards Ltd.	Posted - 2008.01.17 13:46:00 - [1616] One goes up, one goes down. And the cycle continues, etc.
Dlardrageth Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.01.17 14:09:00 - [1617] Originally by: Andreask14 I crosstrained to ORE because they are the best ships for the purpose they have and they were never nerfed, ever and never will be. Except for these declining mineral prices these days. Indeed. Wait, this is totally IMBA regarding that we get the same chance to train for ships on par with ther other races! Let's nerf Amarr! Hard. Can't have those pesky Amarr flying not too many pre-nerfed ships... Or alternatively give us an easy and decisive rebalancing. Amarr characters get a racial character bonus of 25% to any basic mining laser yield. We are the laser race, so there! But it will neither give us any extra DPS nor address the cap issues, no reason to whine "IMBA" for other races thus, eh? But that bonus will be useful even on Amarr ships. And to the incoming whines from other races... You had your chance. You failed at playing Amarr. Tough luck... Oh, wait. As if anything like this will ever happen. We are the smallest player race in EVE. Almost forgot, we thus contribute least to CCP's wallet... so better brace for the next Caldari buff... And don't expect any serious Dev response here on the forum. Last time they did take position it was like "NEXT" and a thread closed. Any more questions...?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:56:00 - [1618] Originally by: Dlardrageth Originally by: Andreask14 I crosstrained to ORE because they are the best ships for the purpose they have and they were never nerfed, ever and never will be. Except for these declining mineral prices these days. Indeed. Wait, this is totally IMBA regarding that we get the same chance to train for ships on par with ther other races! Let's nerf Amarr! Hard. Can't have those pesky Amarr flying not too many pre-nerfed ships... Or alternatively give us an easy and decisive rebalancing. Amarr characters get a racial character bonus of 25% to any basic mining laser yield. We are the laser race, so there! But it will neither give us any extra DPS nor address the cap issues, no reason to whine "IMBA" for other races thus, eh? But that bonus will be useful even on Amarr ships. And to the incoming whines from other races... You had your chance. You failed at playing Amarr. Tough luck... Oh, wait. As if anything like this will ever happen. We are the smallest player race in EVE. Almost forgot, we thus contribute least to CCP's wallet... so better brace for the next Caldari buff... And don't expect any serious Dev response here on the forum. Last time they did take position it was like "NEXT" and a thread closed. Any more questions...? yes wallet seems to be more important then justice...hey its like the real world. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.01.17 19:14:00 - [1619] Come on Devs! We don`t give a damn about new graphics! Fix the game, or be the new SWG!
Valadeya uthanaras Killjoy.	Posted - 2008.01.17 20:14:00 - [1620] While thinking about it last night several point came up to me as why amarr ship need basicly 2 thing: A change in laser themselves And A change in ship that badly need it why? Its quite simple. lets say all ship have a "theorical maximum number of slot - TMNX" that number can be computed using the bonus of a ship. For battleship: thier 1 armageddon get 71.33+1 +3 +8 = 20.31 thyphoon get 81.25 +4 + 7 =21 dominix get 61.25 +5 + 7 = 19.5 + a sickly bonused and oversized drone bay scorpion have a fleet role based on mid slot. In short, armageddon is considered decent, mainly because its in the middleground. its still need a laser bonus. thier 2 apocalypse get 8 + 4 + 7 = 19 (the bonus it receive should be built in to begin with) tempest get 61.331.25 + 2 + 5 + 6 = 22.975 (WAY HIGHER THAN APOC) mega have 71.25 + 1 + 4 + 7 + 2 built in Tracking enhancer = 22.75 (WAY HIGHER AGAIN) raven 6*1.33 + 2 + 6 + 5 = 21 (WAY HIGHER AGAIN ...without factoring the flight time bonus, that should have been built in the missile to begin with) APOCALYSPE need a lot of love, perhaps a optimal range bonus (worth of 2 tracking computer with range script) THIER 3 ALL 22.... drone varies....hence why abaddon seem to be competitive......until you FACTOR THE OVERNERFED LASER Laser need love because of 2 main thing: the multiple hp/tank boost made them less and less competitive, while capless weapon got major oomph. simply put, you need more cap to kill a target when capless weaponry dont.....Abbaddon initial bonus (lol at the clueless 25%rof bonus it had at first) should have been proof enough... The 50% capacitor overhaul was pointless and clueless too.... I need that cap to simply fire longer to the boosted Hp/resist with my laser they received a 50% bonus to their capacitor to tank more CLUELESS is the only thing that came in mind at that point when you are better fit blaster or autocannon on ship that have a bonus to laser to make them semi-decent: punisher/prophecy/apocalypse..... How come its hard to see how bad laser are....

1ncinerate Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.18 03:00:00 - [1621] Zulu and Hammerhead have already stated in a live dev blog that Amarr will get some changes in the "boost patch" - so I don't see why they need to repeat themselves here.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.18 07:09:00 - [1622] Originally by: 1ncinerate Edited by: 1ncinerate on 18/01/2008 04:35:11 Zulu and Hammerhead have already stated in a live dev blog that Amarr will get some changes in the "boost patch" - so I don't see why they need to repeat themselves here. Saying that though, a few of the Amarrian ships need some love, especially the Cruiser and BC classes. Why it is taking some time is I believe Amarr needs something, but any bonuses changed/applied - slapped on like a quick fix - will greatly overpower them. What makes the game good and balanced - reasonably - is that each race has a strength and weaknesses in the roles that they perform. If you apply some of the suggestions made in here - changing bonuses etc - then you start making Amarr not only powerful in their own role, but then surpassing the other races in their roles as well, which is overpowered. They stated that they are only going to duct tape our cruisers basically and NOT fix the race as a whole. I mean ffs everyone knows lasers+cap bonus are broken. CCP hasnt even sat down ONCE to discuss the amarr problem and zulu was pretty clueless what the problem even was by the way he answered the question. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.18 08:52:00 - [1623] Edited by: SkyCrane on 18/01/2008 08:52:54 Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras While thinking about it last night several point came up to me as why amarr ship need basicly 2 thing: A change in laser themselves And A change in ship that badly need it why? Its quite simple. lets say all ship have a "theorical maximum number of slot - TMNX" that number can be computed using the bonus of a ship. For battleship: thier 1 armageddon get *71.33+1 +3 +8 = 20.31*thyphoon get 81.25 +4 + 7 =21 dominix get *61.25 +5 + 7 = 19.5 + a sickly bonused and oversized drone bay scorpion have a fleet role based on mid slot. In short, armageddon is considered decent, mainly because its in the middleground. its still need a laser bonus. thier 2 apocalypse get 8 + 4 + 7 = 19 (the bonus it receive should be built in to begin with) tempest get 61.331.25 + 2 + 5 + 6 = 22.975 (WAY HIGHER THAN APOC) mega have 71.25 + 1 + 4 + 7 + 2 built in Tracking enhancer = 22.75* (WAY HIGHER AGAIN) raven *61.33 + 2 + 6 + 5 = 21** (WAY HIGHER AGAIN ...without factoring the flight time bonus, that should have been built in the missile to begin with) APOCALYSPE need a lot of love, perhaps a optimal range bonus (worth of 2 tracking computer with range script) THIER 3 ALL 22.... drone varies....hence why abaddon seem to be competitive......until you FACTOR THE OVERNERFED LASER Laser need love because of 2 main thing: the multiple hp/tank boost made them less and less competitive, while capless weapon got major oomph. simply put, you need more cap to kill a target when capless weaponry dont.....Abbaddon initial bonus (lol at the clueless 25%rof bonus it had at first) should have been proof enough... The 50% capacitor overhaul was pointless and clueless too.... I need that cap to simply fire longer to the boosted Hp/resist with my laser they received a 50% bonus to their capacitor to tank more CLUELESS is the only thing that came in mind at that point when you are better fit blaster or autocannon on ship that have a bonus to laser to make them semi-decent: punisher/prophecy/apocalypse..... How come its hard to see how bad laser are.... I don't get it. Where do you get them numbers from? Yes I'm really bad at math so don't flame me for noe understanding it... And why did you leave out the Flying Rubbishbin which goes under the name of Typhoon? ..no you didn't, I must learn to read it seems... Edit: corrected a faulty statement ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.18 11:44:00 - [1624] Originally by: SkyCrane Edited by: SkyCrane on 18/01/2008 08:52:54 I don't get it. Where do you get them numbers from? Yes I'm really bad at math so don't flame me for noe understanding it... And why did you leave out the Flying Rubbishbin which goes under the name of Typhoon? ..no you didn't, I must learn to read it seems... Edit: corrected a faulty statement ship damagebonus x turret slots + all other slots. Od something like this. But i dont think that we can compare ships using this method - its looks like black magic for me For example abaddon vs mael: 1) 25% damagemod vs 25% rof damagemod is better for volley damage and better capusage (ammo usage for non laser ships) 25% rof gives better (33%) dps 2) 25% resists vs 30% shield boosting extra resist are better for plated setups (where abaddon shines) , extra boost is avesome for active tanking (mael is one of the best activetanking bs in game) Mael has same pg but better cpu than abaddon, more drones, damage verstility - so even better real dps If we talk about large fleet battles (or situations where capusage is not issue) - abaddon with passive tank is better. But if we talk about all other situations (missions, ratting, solo pvp, small gang pvp) mael wins. Hudge capusege is amarr curse (not ship) and it deeds to be despealed.
Brother Tycho Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.18 12:03:00 - [1625] An idea i have rattleing around my head to make up for amarrs now woefull dps in pve and pvp is the added side effect of lasers to produce some Damage over time so as a fight draws on the advantage starts to swing towards the laser user. If your dealing a flat 100dps first volly then 102dps second volly upto a max of 125dps after 12 vollys for example. This could represent embient electromagnetic radiation causeing system damage and thermal damage caused by the build up of heat in a prolonged fight vs Lasers. Anyhow it woud help no end against angle and gurista NPC BS that can take 20 minutes to kill with lasers, plus alowing amarr some chance to break a 90%+ EM EANM tank. The extra 25% damage after prolonged fighting need not be em and thermal it could be raw giving some needed armor penetration.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.18 12:30:00 - [1626] Originally by: HaulandHaul Now lets talk about the rediculous amount of range and tracking amarr has, shall we? Epic fail in grasping the balance between range and tracking in eve ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.18 13:43:00 - [1627] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I read through it all. You're doing it wrong. Stop playing Eve in EFT and start playing Eve on TQ. All of your theoretical maximums and paper analysis is completely useless and has no validity. You're forcing each ship to use theoretical setups in order to establish a 'baseline' that is fictional and unrealistic. Each ship will be fit/tuned to it's specific strengths and weaknesses. Again, your theories are invalid and without basis. this. @ felysta sandorn: your analysis is a complete fail all your focus is on t1 ships, where EM resists amongst armor tanks are usually the highest. lets have a look on t2 ship fits: astarte typical pvp fit resist: em therm kin exp 74 74 84 73 phobos: em therm kin exp 79 83 92 76 woooot... em second lowest resist... caldari and minmatar t2 ships start out with 0 shield base resistances. so in conclusion amarr does great damage against: all races t2 ships, all shield tanking t1 ships. if you want omnipotence, train for ECM. every race has its drawbacks. you can play this game for every race if you just focus on t1 or t2 ships, or on specific race ships and whine you cant do anything against them. the one and ONLY drawback amarr really has is the cap use of lasers, and maybe the odd ship which is difficult to fit... but believe me, gallente has engough ships, which are difficult to fit too, and so does every other race i bet. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.18 13:49:00 - [1628] Originally by: Frances Ducoir all your focus is on t1 ships, where EM resists amongst armor tanks are usually the highest. lets have a look on t2 ship fits: astarte typical pvp fit resist: em therm kin exp 74 74 84 73 phobos: em therm kin exp 79 83 92 76 woooot... em second lowest resist... All good up to this point. However, you are horribly wrong saying that Minmatar T2 starts w/out shield EM resists. It does get EM resists. Awesome ones, at that... it is Caldari T2 which doesn't. I don't see a problem with damage type of lasers. They do bad versus certain ships and awesomely well versus other ships. I'll sum up my part about fixing Amarr sub-BS ships: That said, here's how to fix the bloody Amarr cruisers in a awesome way: - reduce medium pulse laser usages by 30-40% - give damage bonus instead of cap use bonus on both Omen and Maller - reduce heavy pulse fitting by 15 PG, for both kinds (the FMPs, too, but by like 5-6 PG). - give Omen 25 more base PG, 15/20 CPU. I'd do the same thing for the frigs (less base cap use of frig lasers by 30-40%, then remove cap use bonus and give damage bonus), and there you go. Damage bonus + cap reduction on battleships would be too powerful imho. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.18 13:50:00 - [1629] Originally by: Frances Ducoir Originally by: Bellum Eternus I read through it all. You're doing it wrong. Stop playing Eve in EFT and start playing Eve on TQ. All of your theoretical maximums and paper analysis is completely useless and has no validity. You're forcing each ship to use theoretical setups in order to establish a 'baseline' that is fictional and unrealistic. Each ship will be fit/tuned to it's specific strengths and weaknesses. Again, your theories are invalid and without basis. this. @ felysta sandorn: your analysis is a complete fail all your focus is on t1 ships, where EM resists amongst armor tanks are usually the highest. lets have a look on t2 ship fits: astarte typical pvp fit resist: em therm kin exp 74 74 84 73 phobos: em therm kin exp 79 83 92 76 woooot... em second lowest resist... caldari and minmatar t2 ships start out with 0 shield base resistances. so in conclusion amarr does great damage against: all races t2 ships, all shield tanking t1 ships. if you want omnipotence, train for ECM. every race has its drawbacks. you can play this game for every race if you just focus on t1 or t2 ships, or on specific race ships and whine you cant do anything against them. the one and ONLY drawback amarr really has is the cap use of lasers, and maybe the odd ship which is difficult to fit... but believe me, gallente has engough ships, which are difficult to fit too, and so does every other race i bet. Ever try shooting lasers at a t2 minmatar armor tank like muninn? The EM resist is stupidly imbalanced on minmatar t2 armor. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.18 13:54:00 - [1630] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/01/2008 13:57:29 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Ever try shooting lasers at a t2 minmatar armor tank like muninn? The EM resist is stupidly imbalanced on minmatar t2 armor. Armour tanking Munnin fails horribly. Two resistance holes, five lowslots, cruiser-sized cap and no medslot for a injector. If you want to fly a Munnin like a Rupture, use a Rupture. The best you can do on a Munnin if you are going to actually armour tank it is to be a Rupture with more damage/tracking and highly resistant to Amarr, your racial enemy. It's a gang ship at best. If you really want to armour tank a Munnin, buy a bloody Hurricane. Armour tanking a Munnin is a comedy fit to be honest. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.18 13:57:00 - [1631] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Ever try shooting lasers at a t2 minmatar armor tank like muninn? The EM resist is stupidly imbalanced on minmatar t2 armor. in all honesty... how often do you really engage a muninn. they have crazy em resists... but thats about it. most of the minmatar t2 ships are shield tanks. you cant focus your whine on a specific ship. there is no race in eve which can kill EVERY ship of the other race equally good. Originally by: Cpt Branko All good up to this point. However, you are horribly wrong saying that Minmatar T2 starts w/out shield EM resists. It does get EM resists. Awesome ones, at that... it is Caldari T2 which doesn't. my bad, sorry snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Aindrias Amarr Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.01.18 14:23:00 - [1632] THe issue with shields and EM comes back to Capacitor. A Raven will sit there with a dual-recharger, massive damage mods, and pound away at you while they just rep yer damage and cap injector themselves as needed. Meh
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.18 14:30:00 - [1633] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/01/2008 14:31:06 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/01/2008 14:30:40 Originally by: Aindrias A Raven will sit there with a dual-recharger, massive damage mods, and pound away at you while they just rep yer damage and cap injector themselves as needed. Meh As soon as they release the skill Very Awesomely Advanced Weapon Upgrades and you train it to V, you will just sit there with a cap boosting active tanked Raven with torps and cap inject yourself as necessary. That said, torp ravens are vile. However, (plated) Amarr BS firing on it are vile too, and cannot be tanked (or even close!) in any actual Raven PvP setup. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.18 15:17:00 - [1634] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 18/01/2008 15:17:34 Originally by: Frances Ducoir Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 18/01/2008 14:00:13 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Ever try shooting lasers at a t2 minmatar armor tank like muninn? The EM resist is stupidly imbalanced on minmatar t2 armor. in all honesty... how often do you really engage a muninn. they have crazy em resists... but thats about it. most of the minmatar t2 ships are shield tanks. you cant focus your whine on a specific ship. there is no race in eve which can kill EVERY ship of the other race equally good. Originally by: Cpt Branko All good up to this point. However, you are horribly wrong saying that Minmatar T2 starts w/out shield EM resists. It does get EM resists. Awesome ones, at that... it is Caldari T2 which doesn't. my bad, sorry so i should have said, amarr does great damage against all races t2 ships except minmatar (but they should still do good against minmatar t1 ships). You think it is within reason that a honor tank like 1xeanm+1xdc totally voids one races damage by decimating it to 1/20th (ie it gets friggin 95% em resist)? Its redicilous. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Dlardrageth Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.01.18 15:24:00 - [1635] Originally by: 1ncinerate Edited by: 1ncinerate on 18/01/2008 04:35:11 Zulu and Hammerhead have already stated in a live dev blog that Amarr will get some changes in the "boost patch" - so I don't see why they need to repeat themselves here. Saying that though, a few of the Amarrian ships need some love, especially the Cruiser and BC classes.[...] Well, I will believe in beneficial changes to Amarr ships in general made by CCP when I see them happening. Not a friggin' second earlier. Sorry, but judging from past experiences, nothing else is warranted here. Oh, it's true, there are a few decent ships you can still fly as Amarr, and for the rest you can crosstrain into another race. Add yet another flunkie to the ever-growing Drake&Raven fleet for example. Because some of us in fact steadfastly refuse to train up max. laser, cap-related and ships skills to be barely competitive with another race's ship of the same class. Where any pilot with half the investment in SPs can easily PWN your butt... Unless, ofc, you argue again with max. skills for that very ship, which is kinda pointless.(Same goes for "awesome capitals" and stuff.) Thus... crosstraining... shrug Considering the grasp of TPTB of the problems with some Amarr ships... Anyone still remember the original design of the Abbadon or - more recently - the Paladin? Well... the reaction was more of a LOLfest than anything else. Guess why...? Then there is the point about one of the most "useful" ships in game ATM, the Pilgrim recon, and the Amarr faction cruiser (Why the only Tier-1 of all races?), the lacking Astrometrics frigate (Lacking for how long now?), etc., etc., etc. ad nauseam. There is one issue left, though, that gives the Amarr players a little bit of consolation. We can easily make fun of CCP, as they seem as... let's say "clueless", or even "hesitant" in terms of game-balancing as the majority of other MMOs. Not even a notch better. Or why else do the numbers of players vary so much between Caldari and Amarr for example, eh? This said, guess who is not going to make any Amarr Alts or run second accounts with Amarr characters at this point in the game? Yeah, right, I made this mistake once, and am just too stubborn to let go, but no need to throw more money/playtime into the "hard/insane mode" gameplay here.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.18 15:31:00 - [1636] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You think it is within reason that a honor tank like 1xeanm+1xdc totally voids one races damage by decimating it to 1/20th (ie it gets friggin 95% em resist)? Its redicilous. Look, a Munnin with a EANM and DC II is a *comedy fit* - armour tanking a Munnin and using it like a Rupture is LOL. You get 20% more DPS out of turrets over a Rupture and a tad less out of drones and better tracking and very good resists vs Amarr and Amarr only. Paying 130M to do marginally then a cruiser you can T2-fit really well for <22M LC is just lol, which is why I'm saying you're citing a comedy setup. That said, how do you like my proposal about Amarr cruisers? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.18 16:15:00 - [1637] Originally by: Cpt Branko how do you like my proposal about Amarr cruisers? BS allso need same things (laser cap reduction and real second bonus). And tachs need lower fit reqs. Originally by: Cpt Branko You want to PvP effectively w/out skills? LOL. Also, cap skills to V are practically a MUST today for all pilots. Thermodynamics requirements dictate it. Its not about cap skills - they are generaly learned by all races. its about ship skills. You need 4-5 lvl of ship skill just to stay in battle for 2 minutes or longer without capbooster (or to stay with capbooster and mwd). for example abaddon has no cap reduction bonus - so lasers eat cap with full strength. 8 megabeams on it(not even tachs) used allmost same amount of cap as 2 LAR. Your own weapon burns your cap faster than enemy neitralizer
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.18 16:27:00 - [1638] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: Cpt Branko how do you like my proposal about Amarr cruisers? BS allso need same things (laser cap reduction and real second bonus). And tachs need lower fit reqs. I wasn't so sure about Amarr BS - but, I guess they could use the same thing. However, the DPS output would be too awesome if you stuck another damage bonus on them, especially considering they would have a combination of awesome range and awesome damage with pulses. As for Tachs needing lower fitting - I'm not so sure. They're the most awesome long-range gun of them all (unless you are aiming for pure max range, in which case you want to use a rail rokh or something). At any rate, I do not participate in 150+km range fleet fights, so I never really cared about it, but I can't fit top tier arties on a Tempest easily either, and to be honest I don't ever use long-range guns in PvP anyway, ever. It's suicide 99% of the time in small gang PvP anyway, although I hear rails are decent as far as long-range guns go as long as it is possible for you to mantain range. Anyway, Amarr BS as preety fearsome, while Amarr cruisers barring the Arbitrator are kindof meh compared to Minmatar/Gallente, and the frigs could use just a tad of love when using lasers. Cruisers are obviously worst of the bunch really. Giving the BS another damage bonus is something I don't support; giving them a real non-damage bonus and reducing cap usage by default would probably be nice. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.18 16:33:00 - [1639] Great news, guys. A dev just responded.. to another thread on on Page 1 about ambulation. And it was after only 5 posts! I'm sure they'll be along any minute to post a reply here. -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.18 16:34:00 - [1640] Originally by: Cpt Branko Look, a Munnin with a EANM and DC II is a *comedy fit* - armour tanking a Munnin and using it like a Rupture is LOL. You get 20% more DPS out of turrets over a Rupture and a tad less out of drones and better tracking and very good resists vs Amarr and Amarr only. Paying 130M to do marginally then a cruiser you can T2-fit really well for <22M LC is just lol, which is why I'm saying you're citing a comedy setup. Screw the fit, do you know what a non tanked munnin has for Em resist? Do you realise how little damage even heavy heatsinked lasers do on shield tanking t2 minmatar ships even once they are through the shields? Its stupidly high and even ccp has stated this at a point. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian

Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.18 16:35:00 - [1641] Originally by: Meridius Dex Great news, guys. A dev just responded.. to another thread on on Page 1 about ambulation. And it was after only 5 posts! I'm sure they'll be along any minute to post a reply here. I think this thread will break page record. There cant be smoke without a fire, can there? ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.18 16:42:00 - [1642] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/01/2008 16:42:25 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Screw the fit, do you know what a non tanked munnin has for Em resist? Do you realise how little damage even heavy heatsinked lasers do on shield tanking t2 minmatar ships even once they are through the shields? Its stupidly high and even ccp has stated this at a point. True, it stupidly high, but once you've broken their shield tank, their tank is broken and they're dying. Release a few explosive drones and watch as their 10% resist dies in a horrible way. I would love if it was possible to armour tank with Minmatar T2, but due to stupidly high EM resists and no kinetic/explosive resists, they're buggered except versus Amarr. That said, I think a reasonable fix would be removing the base 70% EM armour resist and putting the 10% anywhere else. Would be a nice boost to Minmatar T1 armour tankers at any rate. It would help Minmatar and help Amarr, basically, at the cost of killing some diversity. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Orgos Khenn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.18 16:51:00 - [1643] Edited by: Orgos Khenn on 18/01/2008 16:51:15 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I think this thread will break page record. There cant be smoke without a fire, can there? It's called whining. ----In before Jonny JoJo turns this into an Amarr whine----
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.18 16:57:00 - [1644] Originally by: Orgos Khenn Edited by: Orgos Khenn on 18/01/2008 16:51:15 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I think this thread will break page record. There cant be smoke without a fire, can there? It's called whining. So what youre basically saying is that people who pick amarr and play it have a much higher tendency to make long whine threads about problems that dont really exist. Is this what youre saying? Because I sure cant see a 60 page minmatar, gallente or caldari discussion/whine... Please enlighten us wise one. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Orgos Khenn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.18 17:14:00 - [1645] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer So what youre basically saying is that people who pick amarr and play it have a much higher tendency to make long whine threads about problems that dont really exist. Is this what youre saying? Because I sure cant see a 60 page minmatar, gallente or caldari discussion/whine... Please enlighten us wise one. That's because when people choose to fly Minmatar/Gallente/Caldari ships, they don't whine about how crap they are, because they aren't crap. So why aren't you flying a Minmatar/Gallente/Caldari ship, rather whan whining abotu how crap about Amarr ships are? CCP have demonstrated they -won't- fix Amarr ships just because people whine about them; but if nobody is -flying- Amarr ships, they might try to make them more attractive. You may just achieve more - and in the meantime you'll be flying something that is good enough to not whine about. ----In before Jonny JoJo turns this into an Amarr whine----
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.18 17:19:00 - [1646] Originally by: Cpt Branko I wasn't so sure about Amarr BS - but, I guess they could use the same thing. However, the DPS output would be too awesome if you stuck another damage bonus on them, especially considering they would have a combination of awesome range and awesome damage with pulses. I dont whant dps boost either - lasers have good raw dps. Blasters still better in terms of dps, ac still have damage versatility. But laser ships definetly need real second bonus (laser related bonus) - i dont see a reason why all ships have 2 of them and laserboats have hudge capusage (even at 5lvl) and only 1 real bonus. Originally by: Cpt Branko As for Tachs needing lower fitting - I'm not so sure. They're the most awesome long-range gun of them all (unless you are aiming for pure max range, in which case you want to use a rail rokh or something). Beams (and tachs) have worst fitting reqs in game. No one can use all turret slots for tachs without rcu. Compare tach II vs 1400mm II. Arties have better CPU and PG fittings. If you think that amarrs have better cpu and pg - compare abaddon and mael.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.18 18:08:00 - [1647] Originally by: Orgos Khenn Originally by: Lyria Skydancer So what youre basically saying is that people who pick amarr and play it have a much higher tendency to make long whine threads about problems that dont really exist. Is this what youre saying? Because I sure cant see a 60 page minmatar, gallente or caldari discussion/whine... Please enlighten us wise one. That's because when people choose to fly Minmatar/Gallente/Caldari ships, they don't whine about how crap they are, because they aren't crap. So why aren't you flying a Minmatar/Gallente/Caldari ship, rather whan whining abotu how crap about Amarr ships are? CCP have demonstrated they -won't- fix Amarr ships just because people whine about them; but if nobody is -flying- Amarr ships, they might try to make them more attractive. You may just achieve more - and in the meantime you'll be flying something that is good enough to not whine about. I like to point out the ccp failures because Im paying their salary, mkay? I chose a race because I liked the looks. Obviously there IS something wrong with amarr as a whole race (ofc there are several ships that are flyable etc that I use) because amarr ships seen in space is a minority according to the dev blog statistics. There is a reason for this and its not that the ships are ugly, mkay? You pretty much admit that there is something wrong with the race right? Are you a ccp alt or why do threads like these bother you? ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.18 18:24:00 - [1648] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You pretty much admit that there is something wrong with the race right? Are you a ccp alt or why do threads like these bother you? I think he's just annoyed at the whining. I mean, when you see people like JoJo who are simply trolling (and even you can drop a load of purely unconstructive/whine comments in threads), it is not conductive to discussion. As you say it yourself, there are good Amarr ships. From practical encounters (i.e fighting them) I must say that the Amarr laser-using cruiser line is quite definitely the worst of the bunch (although Arbitrators are fairly common and quite effective); although the Omen is not particularly worse then the Stabber if you are very skilled (although, tbh, unskilled Stabbers are total junk and I consider Stabbers to suck in general honestly, except as cargo haulers, but now I'm derailing the thread). At any rate, I do think my proposal quite fixes Amarr Cruisers/frigs. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Dlardrageth Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.01.18 18:53:00 - [1649] Originally by: Cpt Branko [...]You want to PvP effectively w/out skills? LOL. You didn't bother to read up the whole sentence/paragraph, did you? Moreover, did I write anything specifically about PvP? I do not think so. Scroll up and try anew. Failure at reading comprehension. snicker Quote: Also, cap skills to V are practically a MUST today for all pilots. Thermodynamics requirements dictate it. Sure, and Jump Drive Operation Lvl 5 to be able to fly a Black Ops Ship right after your trial ends and... suuuure... dream on... Or no, rather go playing EFT instead of EVE and try those nice setups with the "all skills to Lvl 5" setting. Have fun with it, but don't bother coming here and post rubbish you obviously have no clue about. Thermodynamics, my butt... I'm not talking exclusively about 10M+ SP pilots, and I'd wager not every of those can be bothered to train Thermodynamics. I didn't, and still cope somehow, thank you very much. Quote: I fly Minmatar and will tell you that training cap skills to V was the best skill i trained short of T2 ACs (which you MUST have or your DPS sucks, your range sucks, and you are vastly inferior to gallente with T1 in every way). Thanks for making my point again. I fly Minmatar, too, have neither maxed all cap-related skills(to quote myself) nor any Tech-2 projectiles (That's how many SPs up to large turrets?). And I frankly do not care about any inferiority complex of yours towards Gallente. Not my problem, tbh. And not quite the point of this thread, in case you didn't notice. Quote: Don't tell me about friggin training skills.[...] Yes, after 11M SP (and can't fly a BS, can't fly anything except cruisers/BCs from minmatar and both gallente and minmatar frigs) I can own a similarly skilled Thorax in a Rupture. Your point here being exactly what? Or do you want to sell us the concept that you need about 11M SPs before you should be able to decently fly a mere Tech-1 cruiser? You must be kidding... I fly myself regularily a couple of sub-battleship size ships in PvP/Fleet Ops, some of them Tech-2 ones, and honestly, you can make it work (not OMFGWTFBBQPWN ofc) without 11M SPs. Well, okay, I can. Guess what, not a single stock Amarr cruiser among them... Quote: When I had 5M SP, I had no chance versus a similarly skilled Thorax. Let's try it one more time to make my point. sigh How would you feel if you in your Rupture with 5M SPs get OWNed on a regular basis by a pilot in a Thorax with a mere 2.5M SPs? I'm not talking about similar skills, I'm talking about me in my Bellicose with a mere 2 levels in Minnie cruisers and mediocre drone and projectile skills back then having to help a corpmate in his Maller with good skills because he got owned in a Lvl 2 mission. (Yeah, he tried a setup with lasers, cannot blame him). Thus me with mediocre skills for the Minmatar Tier-2 cruiser owning him (respectively the rats) with better skills for the Amarr Tier-3 cruiser. Get my point finally? JFYI: I crosstrained into Minmatar specifically because some Amarr designs suck in comparison bigtime. And guess why I use the Minmatar designs over the Amarr ones? And no, I have not your or Ronald McDonald's 11M+ SPs yet... go figure... Sorry for not being overly courteous or patient with your post, but you obviously did not comprehend my post in half and those points you are trying to make leave a distinct impression. Try flying Amarr for a bit in order to get a clue what you are trying to talk about. Too many people think themselves Amarr experts on the forums when they barely are able to handle fitting our ships on EFT. That is neither helpful nor anything but pathetic, tbh. If you want to whine about Minmatar ships, feel welcome to do this elsewhere. HAND.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.18 19:15:00 - [1650] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/01/2008 19:22:14 Originally by: Dlardrageth Originally by: Cpt Branko [...]You want to PvP effectively w/out skills? LOL. You didn't bother to read up the whole sentence/paragraph, did you? Moreover, did I write anything specifically about PvP? PvE balance is NOT something I am remotely interested in. I don't care. I know CNR is and will always be best for it. PvE is not ship balance, PvE is shooting mobile asteroids. Originally by: Dlardrageth Quote: Also, cap skills to V are practically a MUST today for all pilots. Thermodynamics requirements dictate it. Have fun with it, but don't bother coming here and post rubbish you obviously have no clue about. Thermodynamics, my butt... I'm not talking exclusively about 10M+ SP pilots, and I'd wager not every of those can be bothered to train Thermodynamics. I didn't, and still cope somehow, thank you very much. All PvP pilots in my corp are very strongly advised to train heat. It is incredibly and unbelieveably useful. I use it all the bloody time; a pilot with Heat has a huge advantage. Originally by: Dlardrageth Thanks for making my point again. I fly Minmatar, too, have neither maxed all cap-related skills(to quote myself) nor any Tech-2 projectiles (That's how many SPs up to large turrets?). And I frankly do not care about any inferiority complex of yours towards Gallente. Not my problem, tbh. And not quite the point of this thread, in case you didn't notice. You are then a utterly gimped Minmatar combat pilot. Battleships are for high-SP players anyway. Especially and particularly Minmatar battleships. Originally by: Dlardrageth Your point here being exactly what? Or do you want to sell us the concept that you need about 11M SPs before you should be able to decently fly a mere Tech-1 cruiser? No. It is enough to fly superbly a T1 frig/destroyer, and a T2 frig/T1 cruiser/T1 BC really well. With more careful SP selection (I unfortunately started off with small blasters II and stuff, plus have trained gallente frig IV/caldari and amarr frigs to III, plus a few other relatively useless skills for a pure minmatar pilot), you can do it all at 10M. Quote:* I'm not talking about similar skills, I'm talking about me in my Bellicose with a mere 2 levels in Minnie cruisers and mediocre drone and projectile skills back then having to help a corpmate in his Maller with good skills because he got owned in a Lvl 2 mission. (a) Maller getting owned in a L2 mission is LOL. (b) You are discussing PvE balance. A Bellicose is in every way inferior to anything else, and any Amarr ship will, in fact, kill one. Particularly with lasers. Quote: HAND. First off, you are discussing PvE balance which does not belong in a ship balance thread of any sort. I don't care about PvE balance. Why should anyone? Just train for a Drake/CNR if you are interested in mission grinding, they're the absolute best for it. Let me repeat it to you: NOBODY CARES ABOUT PVE BALANCE. Secondly, 11M SP is hardly excessive; you can fly a frigate in PvP quite decently at about 2.5/3M - a Cruiser will take you about 6-ishM SP (if you haven't wasted SPs into battleships, large guns and such) to fly well. It is how it is. You sound like someone whining about needing Engineering V and Electronics V to fit his ship correctly - well, everyone does. No PvP Battleship fit really works correctly w/out AWU. You can dislike the SP requirements, but you cannot ignore them and say you got pwned. Also, if you want to talk about PvE: HAND. *It's not so bad. It enabled me to train Gallente Cruisers so I can fly the Cynabal which is a ship I really love ;) Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.18 19:53:00 - [1651] Originally by: Cpt Branko (a) Maller getting owned in a L2 mission is LOL. Yes, but its realy big differece betwin lvl 2 caracl and maller missions. All amarr laserboats extreamly useless for missionruning, especialy at low sp lvl. They simply cannot tank and fire at the same time. I personly used arbi for 2-3 lvl missionruning and it was great. Originally by: Cpt Branko (b) You are discussing PvE balance. This thread is about owerall game balance. If some ships are useless for pvp, then they must be at least usefull for pve, dont you think so? If they are useless for pve and pvp, then they must be at least much cheaper. And if they are simply useless - this is not balance, every ship in game must have a role. Even bestower has a role - its great indi for 800k sp alts
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.01.18 19:56:00 - [1652] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: Cpt Branko (a) Maller getting owned in a L2 mission is LOL. Yes, but its realy big differece betwin lvl 2 caracl and maller missions. All amarr laserboats extreamly useless for missionruning, especialy at low sp lvl. They simply cannot tank and fire at the same time. Say it with me... Maller... passive... SHIELD... tank. Optionally one AB, one invul, rest LSEs, a couple of heat sinks, PDUs mixed with SPRs just to perma-run everything. It just works. Sad but true. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.18 20:07:00 - [1653] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: Cpt Branko (a) Maller getting owned in a L2 mission is LOL. Yes, but its realy big differece betwin lvl 2 caracl and maller missions. All amarr laserboats extreamly useless for missionruning, especialy at low sp lvl. They simply cannot tank and fire at the same time. Say it with me... Maller... passive... SHIELD... tank. Optionally one AB, one invul, rest LSEs, a couple of heat sinks, PDUs mixed with SPRs just to perma-run everything. It just works. Sad but true. You do not have enough shield skills. Train more shield skills. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.18 20:17:00 - [1654] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: Cpt Branko (a) Maller getting owned in a L2 mission is LOL. Yes, but its realy big differece betwin lvl 2 caracl and maller missions. All amarr laserboats extreamly useless for missionruning, especialy at low sp lvl. They simply cannot tank and fire at the same time. Say it with me... Maller... passive... SHIELD... tank. Optionally one AB, one invul, rest LSEs, a couple of heat sinks, PDUs mixed with SPRs just to perma-run everything. It just works. Sad but true. Lol - amarrs cannot use shieldtanks with lasers (i tried)becouse: 1) they have no skills at low lvl 2) they not have enough meds for SE so it needs 3-4 SPR in low 3) if they have skills - lasers will eat all cap (especialy with SPR) for invuls\fields. Not mentioning ab 4) if amarrs use missiles + passive shildtank they decided to fly caldary :) if amarrs use projectiles + active shild tank (if they have med slots of course) - they decided to fly minmatr :)
Brother Tycho Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.18 20:37:00 - [1655] What would make me very happy in the short term. Paladin and Apoc 5% cap bonus changed to 10% range and lock range raised a bit. I would give the Redeemer a cool khanid paint job swap the 6 turrents for launchers and give it a dmg bonus for torps a flight time bonus and 5% per lvl armor resists. Maller cap raised 30% and 10% cap use changed to 5% damage. Omen cap raised 30% and 10% cap use changed to 10% range and 1 high slot swaped to a mid. Punisher cap raised 30% and 10% cap use changed to 5% damage. Give the Inquisitor another launcher tube added so its inline with the kessy in terms of effectivness. Can you see the pattern? im sure this could be put on the test server for a bit withought everyone going mad.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.18 22:33:00 - [1656] Originally by: Cpt Branko Look, a Munnin with a EANM and DC II is a comedy fit - armour tanking a Munnin and using it like a Rupture is LOL. You get 20% more DPS out of turrets over a Rupture and a tad less out of drones and better tracking and very good resists vs Amarr and Amarr only. Paying 130M to do marginally then a cruiser you can T2-fit really well for <22M LC is just lol, which is why I'm saying you're citing a comedy setup. You actually do a lot better since you trade EANMS for specific hardeners and you have more base HP. You run about 25% more dps, with 25% more hit points and better tracking. Its about similar to the other short range HAC improvements. The reason you dont see short range Muninns is because the Vagabond is just a lot better than it with the falloff bonus and being so fast. No one would fly a Rupture either if the Stabber had 5 guns, a falloff bonus, and more med/low slots than the ruppy either.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.18 22:36:00 - [1657] Originally by: Cpt Branko (b) You are discussing PvE balance. A Bellicose is in every way inferior to anything else, and any Amarr ship will, in fact, kill one. Particularly with lasers. This is false. Bellicose is pretty decent actually. About on par with an Arbitrator[less dps, more range, more speed, less utilty], certianly better than both the Omen and Maller. It makes a good speed fit tech 1 cruiser, especially since it has plenty of non-tracking based dps and is very fast and light.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.18 23:02:00 - [1658] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Cpt Branko (b) You are discussing PvE balance. A Bellicose is in every way inferior to anything else, and any Amarr ship will, in fact, kill one. Particularly with lasers. This is false. Bellicose is pretty decent actually. About on par with an Arbitrator[less dps, more range, more speed, less utilty], certianly better than both the Omen and Maller. It makes a good speed fit tech 1 cruiser, especially since it has plenty of non-tracking based dps and is very fast and light. TBH, a Bellicose has no chance whatsoever against a Maller short of running. It just may deal with a Omen, depending on fitting, but is is unlikely as well due to base shield EM resists. It is going to struggle versus a good Caracal fit and quite likely die or have to run, will not kill a Stabber but won't die to one either, will not kill a Rupture (LOL, if the Rupture gets to web it it's going to die in 20s flat), and will not kill a Arbitrator (which is a vastly better ship), or will die to it if it sticks around. It is also not going to kill a sensibly fit Moa, and will have to either die or gtfo versus a Vexor. It's going to have to run away from a Thorax too because it can MWD for much longer. A nano-bellicose cannot really kill any other properly fit cruiser, except maybe a Omen and maybe a Stabber who's being too slow. Be serious. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Orgos Khenn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.19 01:11:00 - [1659] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I like to point out the ccp failures because Im paying their salary, mkay? I chose a race because I liked the looks. Obviously there IS something wrong with amarr as a whole race (ofc there are several ships that are flyable etc that I use) because amarr ships seen in space is a minority according to the dev blog statistics. There is a reason for this and its not that the ships are ugly, mkay? You pretty much admit that there is something wrong with the race right? Are you a ccp alt or why do threads like these bother you? It's the whining. It really is the whining. I like the constructive criticism - it shows people put their brains behind the argument - but how much of these...what, 57 pages, are constructive criticism? Some people have made an effort to keep it that way, power to them. It's the whining that really truly eats my donut. Though...when an Amarr ship is pretty, it is very pretty. But when it's ugly it's uuuugly. ----In before Jonny JoJo turns this into an Amarr whine----
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.19 07:51:00 - [1660] Originally by: Cpt Branko A nano-bellicose cannot really kill any other properly fit cruiser, except maybe a Omen and maybe a Stabber who's being too slow. Be serious. Nano-bellicose either runs 2 LSEs and so has a pretty huge buffer tank for a nano ship, or it runs an LCB and never runs out of capacitor for its mwd. It shouldnt have a problem with an arbitrator, thorax, or rupture[that isnt nano'd]. E.G. [Bellicose, New Setup 1] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Hammerhead II x3 Hobgoblin II x2 210 DPS: 3200m/s OR [Bellicose, New Setup 1] Capacitor Power Relay II Power Diagnostic System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Large Peroxide I Capacitor Power Cell Large Shield Extender II Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Hammerhead II x3 Hobgoblin II x2 Which perma-runs the MWD at 2280m/s. Target drones first and then go after your target that cant get to you or track you all that well. You might have an issue with mallers and omens, but eh. There are other fits that are probably better, but im not really going to bother looking at them. The Bellicose is a fine ship, its not super-fantastic, but its still a fine ship. Quote: If you trade EANMs for specific hardeners, you have a problem. Cap. Since there is no concieveable way to sustain cap for a repping hardened setup on a Munnin, you are relying on plates to keep you alive. Not having resists which are good for armour tanking means you're vastly inferior to any other short-range HAC even ignoring the fact you're outdamaged by them. Its a good thing then that repping setups are roasted by passive setups. Guns, Missiles mwd, web, scram Ex, Kin, DC, plate, [dmg mod, or rep depending on how long you expect to be out]. rigs to taste. Tech 2 resists are the same for everyone. The only difference is against whom your advantage is extracted, but in the end, its still 3 free hardeners. Whether or not you want to armor tank or shield tank depends entirely on fitting and slots. For instance, a Deimos gets 2 free kin hardeners and 1 free thermal hardener. Fit with a tank such as ex, eanm, dc you actually end up with a slightly worse tank against lasers than a tech 1 ship, and slightly better on the rest[except kin]. In the same way that the Muninn only breaks even against a tech 1 ship fitting "ex,kin,therm,dc" when fitting "ex,kin, DC] against autocannons and blasters, but still maintains a huge advantage against lasers. The short range muninn isnt perfect, but that its terrible is largly a myth.

Dlardrageth Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.01.19 09:02:00 - [1661] Originally by: Cpt Branko [...] PvE balance is NOT something I am remotely interested in. I don't care.[...] Guess what... perhaps other people do! And some of them might be flying Amarr ships. Quote: [...] All PvP pilots in my corp are very strongly advised to train heat. It is incredibly and unbelieveably useful.[...] Which proves exactly... nothing? I could easily state that most PvP pilots in my Corp do not care about Heat, and that would also prove exactly... nothing. Moreover with people eventually having substantially less than 10M SPs, it is pretty much of an investment of SPs needed elsewhere more urgently. Quote: You are then a utterly gimped Minmatar combat pilot. Battleships are for high-SP players anyway. Especially and particularly Minmatar battleships. You seem to have misunderstood. I fly Minmatar ships. Like Amarr ones. Because I specifically crosstrained for them. I'm no "Minmatar pilot" in the sense of having Minmatar starting skills. And I don't fly all of the race's ships either. Now battleships... well, I use one for mining occasionally, and that's an Apocalypse. So no need to even just mention Minmatar battleships. Quote: [...] (a) Maller getting owned in a L2 mission is LOL.[...] With lasers fitted and against Guristas? And I was not writing about a 25+M SP player here. I suggest you try it once you can be bothered to play Amarr... though I can't really recommend that ATM. Quote: (b) You are discussing PvE balance. A Bellicose is in every way inferior to anything else, and any Amarr ship will, in fact, kill one. Particularly with lasers. Well, PvE is part of the game EVE-Online. You may dislike or ignore that, but it remains a fact still. Any Amarr ship killing it is a joke for sure. Even an Augoror or an Omen would have a hard time IMNSHO. And unless I fit the Maller with projectile turrets... Quote: [...] First off, you are discussing PvE balance which does not belong in a ship balance thread of any sort. Oh, so it's a given some race's ships excel at PvE while others suck? Must have missed that part of the EULA... Quote: I don't care about PvE balance. Why should anyone? Yeah, makes one wonder why CCP does not simply disable all agent missions, and ratting and ofc loot drops in general... Quote: Just train for a Drake/CNR if you are interested in mission grinding, they're the absolute best for it. Sorry, we had that "Just crosstrain!" argument already, and it doesn't become more valid by repetition. Quote: You sound like someone whining about needing Engineering V and Electronics V to fit his ship correctly... Guess what, I got both since long. It's part of what we teach at EVE-University, that those are the most important secondary fitting skills to acquire. There is some difference between those two and maxed-out cap-related and ship skills for each ship though. You might grasp that very significance if you'd bother to fly Amarr designs more often, if ever. That's yet another minor point... if Amarr ships were so great, why are Amarr players less than 13% of the community? Weird coincidence... Quote: - well, everyone does. No PvP Battleship fit really works correctly w/out AWU. You can dislike the SP requirements, but you cannot ignore them and say you got pwned. Oh, I can. I don't fly battleships in combat. That easy. By your reasoning everybody should train up capital ships skills ASAP to get into a capital. As you might get PWNed by one if you do not fly one yourself. A bit tough with 11M SPs, I think...
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.19 10:14:00 - [1662] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 19/01/2008 10:14:38 Originally by: Goumindong It shouldnt have a problem with an arbitrator, thorax, or rupture[that isnt nano'd]. In the fits you have just described, most of the damage comes from drones in fact, a very destroyable asset. Even the HML II fit with all L5s does a paltry 75 DPS. Any serious cruiser pilot will dispose of the drones. After that is done, you have two options - in a Rupture, you just MWD off and shoot it. You will cause the Bellicose significantly more damage then it will cause to you due to very little transversal-based missing (and, btw, once you clear off its drones you can freely launch your own anyway) and relatively good falloff damage. The Thorax is a different animal. It gets to have more cap when MWD-ing then other cruisers; so a HML Bellicose must eventually disengage, and the AML Bellicose might eventually kill it (47 DPS at all L5 ftw) if the Thorax doesn't menage to get a web on, if he doesn't menage to break it down with Hammerhead IIs. A Arbitrator will have no issue with the HML bellicose due to significant problems in killing light drones with it, and will actually have more problems with the AML fit. It would be largely stupid to launch drones first versus a nano-Bellicose; a pilot doing that would be stupid really. It does wet paperbag DPS with maxed out skills, so it's really the Bellicose's drones which, at maxed skills, do a significant amount of damage which you have to dispose of. Anyway, I think we're slightly derailing. Originally by: Dlardrageth Quote: - well, everyone does. No PvP Battleship fit really works correctly w/out AWU. You can dislike the SP requirements, but you cannot ignore them and say you got pwned. Oh, I can. I don't fly battleships in combat. That easy. By your reasoning everybody should train up capital ships skills ASAP to get into a capital. As you might get PWNed by one if you do not fly one yourself. A bit tough with 11M SPs, I think... What I meant to say is precisely the opposite; you should fly a ship you can fly competently at your skill level, and train support skills. Jumping in a ship too soon is a invitation to claim the ship is utter failure and horrible. It's like the first time you jump in a destroyer, take it out for anything, and conclude it sucks; and then you revisit the same ship much later and figure out, hey, this is a awesome ship, I just need to use it right. Some ships are more noob-resistant. Caracal, for example, does its job just fine at crusier II and relatively pathetic missile skills. Anyway, I'll say it again: ship balance != PvE ship balance. PvE is so bloody artifical compared to actual combat that it's silly. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.19 12:04:00 - [1663] Originally by: Orgos Khenn Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I like to point out the ccp failures because Im paying their salary, mkay? I chose a race because I liked the looks. Obviously there IS something wrong with amarr as a whole race (ofc there are several ships that are flyable etc that I use) because amarr ships seen in space is a minority according to the dev blog statistics. There is a reason for this and its not that the ships are ugly, mkay? You pretty much admit that there is something wrong with the race right? Are you a ccp alt or why do threads like these bother you? It's the whining. It really is the whining. I like the constructive criticism - it shows people put their brains behind the argument - but how much of these...what, 57 pages, are constructive criticism? Some people have made an effort to keep it that way, power to them. It's the whining that really truly eats my donut. Though...when an Amarr ship is pretty, it is very pretty. But when it's ugly it's uuuugly. Well we are all human beings, there is a certain page limit to everyones patience. Id bet there is atleast 20 pages or more of this thread that is constructive. Would it made a difference if it were 60 pages? I bet you my pc that it wouldnt have made a difference because I dont see the balance devs doing anything at all on a normal workday. If they had, they would have: 1. Recognized and admitted several faults concerning the amarr race with regards to all the nerfs over the years. 2. Had ONE, yes ONE ******* meeting about the amarr problem 3. NOT have stated "There is nothing wrong with amarr as a race" in the latest live dev blog. Epic fail ccp, epic. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.19 14:27:00 - [1664] Originally by: Cpt Branko bellicose stuff You over-estimate the ability of the other ships while under-estimating the bellicose. Look at the real numbers and you will see why its fairly strong.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.19 16:27:00 - [1665] New portion of craizy ideas: I allways wounder - why eve BS use only large turrets? Its just unreal that hudge BS with 2-3kk crew has only 8 large turrets and 5 drones. Maybe adding some special high slots with restriction in weapon sise/type will help? Main idea is to balance ships with low/none drone brandwich For example if BS has only 75mb drone brandwich - he gets 2 extra weapon slots (med sized weapons only) for extra protection versus med sized targets. If cruiser has no drones at all (like maller) - it has 3 additional small sized turrets (vs drones and frigs)
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.19 17:25:00 - [1666] Originally by: PeacefullNub Maybe adding some special high slots with restriction in weapon sise/type will help? YES! (frig ang cruiser)GANKGEDDEON WITH 25 MEDIUM PULSE IIs! +5% node load/BS skill level! shoots almost as fast as the apocs in Xetic vs [5] flash video!! CCP make this happen- --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Dlardrageth Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.01.19 17:28:00 - [1667] Originally by: PeacefullNub [...] Maybe adding some special high slots with restriction in weapon sise/type will help?[...] Nifty idea, but I think it would better work on a battlecruiser (the mixed-size weaponry). Both in terms of terminology fitting in-game ship as in terms of implementation. Simply give the Tier-2 BCs two slots which can fit large turrets/bay. 2 cruise launchers on a drake, two large hybrids on a Myrmi, two large lasers on a Harbinger and two large projectile turrets on a Hurricane. Would necessarily require some tweaking, but because it would be only one ship/race, easier to do than rework all battleships. (Especially as the Tech-2 are based on the Tech-1 ones, too, so a whole bunch of ships...) And elegantly, if you use only the Tier-2 BCs, you need not bother about the Command Ships. Quote: [...] If cruiser has no drones at all (like maller) - it has 3 additional small sized turrets (vs drones and frigs) Won't happen. Can you imagine the whinefest on these forums if Amarr get a cruiser with 8 turret slots? Rabble, rabble, whine, whine, rabble, rabble... And I think it would be abit IMBA, tbh. If I really need a drone defense on the Maller, I have always the option to fit smartbombs... FWIW.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.19 18:47:00 - [1668] Edited by: PeacefullNub on 19/01/2008 18:48:34 Originally by: Dlardrageth Nifty idea, but I think it would better work on a battlecruiser (the mixed-size weaponry). Both in terms of terminology fitting in-game ship as in terms of implementation. Simply give the Tier-2 BCs two slots which can fit large turrets/bay. Dont think that BC will have enough fit reqs for L size turrets. Maybe some tier 2 T2 BC in future Originally by: Dlardrageth Won't happen. Can you imagine the whinefest on these forums if Amarr get a cruiser with 8 turret slots? Rabble, rabble, whine, whine, rabble, rabble... And I think it would be abit IMBA, tbh. If I really need a drone defense on the Maller, I have always the option to fit smartbombs... FWIW. Maller is just an example. If ship A = ship B but B has more drones, shouldnt A has something in exchange? Many usefull ships today usualy have more drones than their analogs, but same slots. Maybe thats why they are better?
Brother Tycho Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.19 20:07:00 - [1669] From a new players piont of view amarr are rather weak withought alot of pionts invested early on lvl5 ship skills the laser ships are next to imposible to run cap stable. As you progress and get the core skills that allow you to run lasers you are presented with a mish mash t2 line up that require alot of training in missiles and drones to be effective, the sacralige is nice but the khanid line up stops there, a t2 khanid battleship makes to much sence they left it out. The majority of the complaints ive heard are related to pvp effectiveness and i must admit the laser/tanking line up are sub par although the t2 ships are reltively effective in small gangs. What i feel the pros and cons are. Pros. Khanid Ships are very competative. Cheap ships to equip. Rairly called primary in pvp. Strong Capital Ships. Nice looking ships. Cons. High skill piont requirement. Problems against Angle, Gurista and Serpentis NPCs due to high EM resists. Alot of slots used to become cap stable. Poor EW options. Many of the t1 ships are garbage. Beams Lasers have massive grid requirements. Expensive cristals. Im sure there are more. -------------------------------------------- All the girls say im pretty fly for Ni-Kunni.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.19 23:14:00 - [1670] someone should summarize this thread into a single thread page Trashed sig, Shark was here

Dlardrageth Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.01.19 23:18:00 - [1671] I somehow have my doubts, though, that a summary would really change much. At least in terms of any direct CCP response. And it might be indeed a threadnaught, but herein most of the current grievances of Amarr players can be found in one place... so to speak.
ArmaggedonPSA Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.01.19 23:32:00 - [1672] /signed very well done ------------------------------ D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S -Offical RHN sig-maker
Andrest Disch Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.19 23:46:00 - [1673] Originally by: SiJira someone should summarize this thread into a single thread page Jojo whining. The revelation that most T1 Amarr ships suck except for the Battleships. And the unsaid fact that Amarr T2 ships are what makes Amarr worth flying. Apart from that, alot of stuff from EFT. P.S; CCP, please put an extra mid-slot on the Punisher. =-(
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.20 00:02:00 - [1674] Originally by: Andrest Disch Originally by: SiJira someone should summarize this thread into a single thread page Jojo whining. The revelation that most T1 Amarr ships suck except for the Battleships and the battlecruisers. And the unsaid fact that Amarr T2 ships are what makes Amarr worth flying. Apart from that, alot of stuff from EFT. P.S; CCP, please put an extra mid-slot on the Punisher. =-( fixed- --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Paeniteo Synthetic Frontiers Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.20 01:43:00 - [1675] Edited by: Paeniteo on 20/01/2008 01:46:06 Originally by: MenanceWhite fixed- I can't really agree with you there. The Prophecy is bad. The Harbinger is if anything incredibly average. It's not that there's anything especially wrong with it, it's just there's nothing especially good about it, unlike the Hurricane, Drake and Myrm which all have their perks. There's a myth floating around that the Harbinger can "easily" pull 700 DPS. That's not the case. We're talking maxed drone and gunnery skills, energy weapon rigging, 3 heat sink II's, possibly implants to get figures like that using Amarr Navy Multi, which means you will die to a couple of volleys from a raven. While we're on that subject; the tank on the Harbinger is disturbingly crap both active and passive. It costs a lot to fit the ship well, but it still dies like it's fit with T1. The Harbinger isn't a bad ship all around, but I wouldn't call it a good one either. For the most part I don't see much of a problem with Amarr ships, but if you're going to train for the Absolution, be prepared to be inflexible and somewhat pointless for a while as you fly the Harbinger and Zealot. The path towards the Damnation pays off better with the Sacrilege.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.20 03:11:00 - [1676] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/01/2008 03:12:37 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/01/2008 03:11:57 Originally by: Paeniteo I can't really agree with you there. The Prophecy is bad. The Harbinger is if anything incredibly average. It's not that there's anything especially wrong with it, it's just there's nothing especially good about it, unlike the Hurricane, Drake and Myrm which all have their perks. There's a myth floating around that the Harbinger can "easily" pull 700 DPS. That's not the case. We're talking maxed drone and gunnery skills, energy weapon rigging, 3 heat sink II's, possibly implants to get figures like that using Amarr Navy Multi, which means you will die to a couple of volleys from a raven. While we're on that subject; the tank on the Harbinger is disturbingly crap both active and passive. It costs a lot to fit the ship well, but it still dies like it's fit with T1. Basically, from Tier 2 battlecruisers, you have two with are more 'gank' (Harbringer,Hurricane) and two which are more 'tank' (Myrmidon, Drake). Both the Hurricane and the Harbringer have relatively bad active armour tanks. DPS output is actually very similiar (Harbringer gets more drones, Hurricane has HAM launchers) with the Harbringer having better DPS at range. Hurricane is noticeably faster, while Harbringer is barely a bit faster then the Myrmidon. Their preformance characteristics aren't that different really. 700 DPS fits on both ships are comedy fits, really. Now, the prophecy is simply bad. One midslot to little, for starters... Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Arlia Inara Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.20 03:31:00 - [1677] Originally by: Cpt Branko Their preformance characteristics aren't that different really. On paper yeah, but using them in the field, well hurricane is better in most situations. Capless weapons for a start.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.20 03:50:00 - [1678] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/01/2008 03:55:28 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/01/2008 03:49:49 Originally by: Arlia Inara Originally by: Cpt Branko Their preformance characteristics aren't that different really. On paper yeah, but using them in the field, well hurricane is better in most situations. Capless weapons for a start. Yeah, beacuse active-tanked Hurricanes work awesomely well without burning 800s as well I do consider the Hurricane a slightly better ship, though. I still rank it quite high though. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Arlia Inara Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.20 05:28:00 - [1679] Edited by: Arlia Inara on 20/01/2008 05:33:43 Originally by: Cpt Branko Yeah, beacuse active-tanked Hurricanes work awesomely well without burning 800s as well Look, you can roll your eyes all you want, but capless weapons are a tremendous advantage in the field. 800's will go a lot further on an active tanked hurricane than a harbinger. Not to mention, my response had nothing to do with active tanking in the first place.
GhostXile Black Screen of Death	Posted - 2008.01.20 06:12:00 - [1680] This thread sucks!

Brother Tycho Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.20 08:44:00 - [1681] Harby has the same problem as all the sub battleship amarr laser boats it cant fit a decent tank while setup to deal damage giveing it a very low life expectancy, Damage per second is worthless when you die before getting a shot off, and if your going the tank rout you would be a fool not to use the Prophacy, at least with a amarr bs you can go for plates and gank and have a nice hpt buffer. -------------------------------------------- All the girls say im pretty fly for Ni-Kunni.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.20 10:42:00 - [1682] The issue is not that harby is a bad ship. The issue is that minmatar got a ship that is similar that is better in every aspect. This is always how it is, amarr is always getting the slightly worse ship and this is why people are ****ed off. If you have skills for both hurricane and harbinger only a moron would pick to fly a harbinger and sadly thats the truth. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Felysta Sandorn Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.20 12:37:00 - [1683] More talk about the Habinger and Hurricane? Look here... The harbinger lacks over 50 CPU to do what the Hurricane does... Not only that, but then it only deals an extra 34 DPS (not from guns mind, that's just what having medium drones rather than lights does), but uses a hell of a lot of cap to fire it's guns. After that, it's slower, has a higher sig radius, is less maneuverable, only deals EM and Thermal damage, and the range advantage it gets is negated anyway because it has to engage inside web range (meaning the Hurricane will also be in it's optimal). Then that again is not all, it has worse tracking than the Hurricane (and the Hurricane is a smaller ship, ergo even less hits), and has less NOS power (only 1 rather than 2 on the cane). On top of this, the Hurricane also has the option of swapping the two NOS for two Heavy Assault Launcher IIs (by swapping to a fleeting web or t1 warp disruptor for extra CPU), resulting in over 500 DPS (515 to be precise). The Harbinger has no such luxury of missiles or spare slots. Put simply, if the Harbinger was given an extra 60 CPU tomorrow, it would still be massively underpowered compared to the Hurricane. To fix this, you would NEED to do the following: Change the 5% damage bonus on the Harbinger to a 5% RoF bonus Reduce the cap use of lasers by 50% for heavy pulse or 66% for FMP Give the Harbinger an extra 50 CPU OR Reduce the CPU cost of lasers by 10 Change the cap use bonus to something useful (7.5% Tracking or 7.5% Armour Repair Amount or 5% Resistances or 10% to Drone Damage and HP (and a larger drone bay) or 10% to Armour Amount) Do those four points, and the Harbinger will be a competitive battlecruiser. It's DPS would equal the Hurricane, it would have less cap problems with FMP (more cap problems with HP), it would be able to fit a competitive fit, and would have two real bonuses. However, it would still be larger, less maneuverable, have less spare highs for NOS/Neuts, be slower, have more cap problems, no spare drones (unless the drone bay was increased), would engage within web range, and still only deal EM and Thermal damage. Meaning in many ways it would still be vastly underpowered compared to other battlecruisers, but it would be a start. Latest Video, Click Here!
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.20 13:11:00 - [1684] Edited by: PeacefullNub on 20/01/2008 13:14:14 Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Do those four points, and the Harbinger will be a competitive battlecruiser. I think this is too much. With extra dps/drone bonus it will be one of the best (if not simply best) gank BC in game. With defensive bonuses it will be best combination of tank and damage in game. But simply reducting cap usage and PG reqs for lasers, and switching cap_usage_bonus to something minior (tracking, sensor resolution, drone control range, fallof bonus etc.) will give harbi more versatility and new setups to be competentive.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.20 13:41:00 - [1685] Originally by: PeacefullNub Edited by: PeacefullNub on 20/01/2008 13:24:30 Edited by: PeacefullNub on 20/01/2008 13:14:14 Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Do those four points, and the Harbinger will be a competitive battlecruiser. I think this is too much. With extra dps/drone bonus it will be one of the best (if not simply best) gank BC in game. With defensive bonuses it will be best combination of tank and damage in game. But simply reducting cap usage and PG reqs for lasers, and switching cap_usage_bonus to something minior (tracking, sensor resolution, drone control range, fallof bonus etc.) will give harbi more versatility and new setups to be competentive. Added: Maybe adding bonuses to EW drones (+5% for EW drones hp, speed and strength per ship lvl) for some amarr ships (omen, harbi, apoc for example) solve amarr EW capability? If it is not supposed to be the best gank bc, what is it supposed to be best at? this is the problem, all ships should have some place they are "best", and Amarr have very few places they can say "i am best at this" or "yea, im special" Giving Amarr ew drone bonus would make no sense, be too good, and kick Caldari in the nuts It's great being Amarr isn't it. Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.20 14:12:00 - [1686] Originally by: Dristra If it is not supposed to be the best gank bc, what is it supposed to be best at? I dont whant amarr ships to be best at something. I whant them to be different, so that noone can clearly said "harbi is the best" or "Huricane is clearly better than harbi in every aspect". You cant compare for example droneboat and missile boat, becouse their weapon systems and bonuses are diffirent. Its silly, but you can compare laserboat and any other turret ship. Lasers and lasersips must have something special in them (not ammo switching bug), not just "lasers are hybrids with greater capusage and lower dps. Lasers are projektiles with capusage and without damageversatility. etc." Originally by: Dristra Giving Amarr ew drone bonus would make no sense, be too good, and kick Caldari in the nuts I just tried to find place for amarrs that is not used by another race. As i know - noone has EW drone bonuses on ships - only DPS and HP drone bonuses. So EW drones may give amarr ships some extra med slots - for example web drones.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.20 16:25:00 - [1687] Originally by: PeacefullNub I just tried to find place for amarrs that is not used by another race. As i know - noone has EW drone bonuses on ships - only DPS and HP drone bonuses. So EW drones may give amarr ships some extra med slots - for example web drones. Gief bonus: Reduced ew drones size to 5m3 on web drones and 5% speed bonus per level, 5% drone effectiveness per level too. Sweet, now our mid ranged ships can enforce mid range atleast. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Felysta Sandorn Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.20 17:23:00 - [1688] Technically speaking, due to the whole 'midrange' thing, Amarr should be the race with the webbing recons... Actually, that's not enough... Amarr t1 ships should have web range bonuses, like the Apoc of the Geddon or the Harbinger or the Omen... In fact, take every Amarr ship that has a cap use bonus on it, and change that to 25% to web range, so at level 5, a web is 22.5km on an Amarr ship, or in other words MIDRANGE... I'm willing to live with enormous cap use if that comes in... Latest Video, Click Here!
General StarScream Borg Collective hive mind	Posted - 2008.01.20 17:43:00 - [1689] Amarr need a Nerf. Please resize signature to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.20 18:03:00 - [1690] Originally by: General StarScream Amarr need a Nerf. Could i ask you 1 thing? Keep bumping this thread (at least 1 per day). Of course many ppls dont understand you, and thinks that you are trolling. But i know that this is your way to help amarrs And btw - keep pretend even more stupid. When ppls will try to compare pro and cons in this thread, they must see alot of you. THX

Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.20 18:08:00 - [1691] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: Dristra If it is not supposed to be the best gank bc, what is it supposed to be best at? I dont whant amarr ships to be best at something. I whant them to be different, so that noone can clearly said "harbi is the best" or "Huricane is clearly better than harbi in every aspect". You cant compare for example droneboat and missile boat, becouse their weapon systems and bonuses are diffirent. Its silly, but you can compare laserboat and any other turret ship. Lasers and lasersips must have something special in them (not ammo switching bug), not just "lasers are hybrids with greater capusage and lower dps. Lasers are projektiles with capusage and without damageversatility. etc." Originally by: Dristra Giving Amarr ew drone bonus would make no sense, be too good, and kick Caldari in the nuts I just tried to find place for amarrs that is not used by another race. As i know - noone has EW drone bonuses on ships - only DPS and HP drone bonuses. So EW drones may give amarr ships some extra med slots - for example web drones. The harbi should outdps the hurricane at range 10-25km with T2 mid range weapons that can be fitted on harbi. Because the hurricane cant have it all, speed, dual rep tank, cap advantage, etc. Amarr gunboats are supposed to be clearly superior at ranges that are above point blank (with short range weaponry). This is the amarr role, they need it because they dont have speed, vesitility or the biggest drone bays or best ew. Gief more gank. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Aram Thracius Amarr Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.01.20 18:45:00 - [1692] maybe if they'd fix lasers, lower their cap requirement and increase damage or something, it'd make the cap usage bonus more logical, otherwise I can fit projectile guns and use no cap, so the bonus is useless Aram Thracius - Eve University
Ogdru Jahad Amarr Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2008.01.20 19:08:00 - [1693] Originally by: General StarScream Amarr need a Nerf. Ogdru Jahad > 2007.12.29 20:57:40 Combat Your Tachyon Beam Laser II perfectly strikes Elder Corpum Sage, wrecking for 4040.8 damage. = NO THEY DONT! Thats a paladin wrecking shot with near maxed out skills. - At last the Gallente can finally lay claim to saying... "my DICtor" is bigger than yours.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.21 02:15:00 - [1694] Bump so ccp doesnt miss the thread ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.21 02:42:00 - [1695] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/01/2008 02:42:58 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer The harbi should outdps the hurricane at range 10-25km with T2 mid range weapons that can be fitted on harbi. Because the hurricane cant have it all, speed, dual rep tank, cap advantage, etc. Amarr gunboats are supposed to be clearly superior at ranges that are above point blank (with short range weaponry). This is the amarr role, they need it because they dont have speed, vesitility or the biggest drone bays or best ew. Gief more gank. A ship that does more damage at mid-range AND at point-blank range would be clearly be out of line; since the Harbringer already does more damage at mid-range then any other BC, it must not get another damage bonus. Else it'd outdamage ships like the Hurricane etc at point-blank range as well. Yes, Hurricane has slightly superior damage at point blank and is faster/more agile. Their tanks suck equally bad. The Harbringer does better at range. Now in a gang, are you going to stick at point-blank when bigger ships are around and your tank is paper-ish, or are you going to stick at 15km where the Harbringer, likes it or not, does better? Both ships have perfectly fine uses really. Hurricane is more versatile and therefore I like it better. You are just whining now. It is NOT productive. Anyway, 'bump so CCP sees the thread' is lol. People see it. Does whining about ships which are quite fine help? Well, helps as much as JoJo helps Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Sotha Sila Amarr Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.01.21 03:21:00 - [1696] i believe amarr need a boost or change of some time so i support this with my post in this thread. Originally by: Santiago Cortes Please don't derail your own thread.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.21 09:31:00 - [1697] Originally by: Cpt Branko Anyway, 'bump so CCP sees the thread' is lol. People see it. Does whining about ships which are quite fine help? People see that CCP dont see it Maybe there was oficial response that i missd? Anyway - this thread clearly shows 1 thing - CCP dont care, dont even tried to. They just ignore word "amarr". They dont care about constructive discisions, dont care about whining either, dont care about trolling, have no respect to readers, have no self respect IF thread is about amarrs in any way.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.21 09:56:00 - [1698] Originally by: PeacefullNub Anyway - this thread clearly shows 1 thing - CCP dont care, dont even tried to. They just ignore word "amarr". They dont care about constructive discisions, dont care about whining either, dont care about trolling, have no respect to readers, have no self respect IF thread is about amarrs in any way. Well, ignoring and not replying are two different things. Due to lack of clairvoyancy, I cannot determine if this thread is red at CCP or not. However, presuming it is, it's better not to spam/troll it/whine stupidly and be constructive instead. If that assumption isn't correct, then you might as well reply to every post with 'RABBLE RABBLE' and vent all you like, really... or let the threadnaught die, because it doesn't really matter. Even this is derailing, really. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Durao Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.21 11:55:00 - [1699] I think Amarr could use a boost - not because Amarr inherently suck, but because certain tactics dominate Eve, and these tactics don't cater to Amarr strengths. Just a little tweaking here and there. Anyway, you guys need to get over asking for devs to post here. They aren't. At the same time, you bet they are reading this. Just because they aren't posting here doesn't mean that they don't read or care about Amarr. Did you forget the positive changes from Khanid mk2 so easily? Does anyone else remember the 100+ page Amarr whine thread before Khanid mk2? Did it get a dev response? No. But that didn't imply that nothing was being done.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.21 11:58:00 - [1700] Originally by: Durao Did you forget the positive changes from Khanid mk2 so easily? They were good and I dont think anyone complains about that. The thing is they still havent fixed the core of amarr ships, our TURRET SHIPS. This is what the thread is about. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian

Kannteir Amarr The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.21 12:01:00 - [1701] I've been playing for a long time and my main is Kannteir, if this doesn't post with it. Some amarr ships are in desperate need of improvement in specific areas and before this thread dissapears I'm going to tell the developers, if they read this thread, what I think they can do! Keep in mind however that most Amarr ships could really be put on level with other races by increasing their cap so they can tank AND shoot back as long as the minmatar guy. Apocalypse - Change the stupid useless bonus of cap amount to Large Energy Turret Tracking Speed Maller - Slightly increase the total amount of cap so that a pilot could tank AND use Beams Arbitrator - In desperate need of more hitpoints... can't kill a guy with drones before he gets me Punisher - Give it more total cap so new pilots who dont have skills like Controlled Burts a chance Crucifier - Could use a increase to total speed and decrease in signature radius but only a little
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.21 12:17:00 - [1702] Originally by: Cpt Branko Well, ignoring and not replying are two different things. I like logical constructions: 1. if they ignore amarr threads they... a) dont see any problem and denie the fact that problem can exist. (realy stupid and childish) b) dont whant to see it becouse they allready know about problem existence and about all possible solutions. (but for some unknown reason they dont do anything - they dont care) 2. if they read, but not reply any amarr thread they... a) have no respect to custumers to spend 1-2 min on conversation. (but they have respect\time to reply on diffirent threads) b) dont see any profs of problem existance (95% of readers aggred that amarrs need fixes or rebalance - not enough?) c) have orders from abowe to keep silence becouse.. c1) Boss dont see problem (p1) c2) They worked on solutions in silence (realy stupid - there is no harm in discussing possible solutions with custumers to see their reaction. In the end we will fly new ships - not devs) I personly think that it either c1 (all of them simply cannot be so stupid - most likely its 1-2 of bosses), or c2 (im realy afraid of that - ccp allready showed that they know nothing about amarrs - so most likely they silently created another stupid useless thing and calld it "amarr boost", like many times before) Constructive disscutions? its 1600+ posts thread - allmost all ships/modules (even not amarrs) were allready disscused and compared. Many solutions have been added. Its imposible to be constructive without repeating someone post (especialy when you dont know what devs think about this).
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.21 13:27:00 - [1703] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/01/2008 13:33:14 Originally by: PeacefullNub c2) They worked on solutions in silence (realy stupid - there is no harm in discussing possible solutions with custumers to see their reaction. In the end we will fly new ships - not devs) Well, they did not reply to the Khanid Mk 2 thread either. They did almost exactly as proposed, and have made a line of awesome ships (yes, they do not use lasers, but Khanid were not meant to use lasers anyway). So don't rule c2) out as a option - they've done it before, and done it very well. Anyway, constructiveness time. I find the suckiest ships in the Amarr T1 line-up (and T1 is the worst part of Amarr) are, essentially: - laser-using cruisers - prophecy - laser-fit punisher I have no experience about battleships either way. I have not fought them much (except outright ganking them with superior numbers + ECM where it doesn't matter what you fly, you'll die), and I have not fought alongside them much. Solution, in my view: Frigate/Destroyer class ships 1) Give 40% cap reduction to small lasers of both types. 2) Replace the 10% laser cap use bonus with a 5% laser damage bonus for all Frigate/Destroyer sized vessels. 3) Replace the Retribution's extra highslot with a midslot - one midslot ships are a joke. 4) Increase base capacitor amount by 5% on all Frigate/Destroyer sized Amarr laser ships to accomodate the lack of final 10% cap use at ship skill V. Effects: ships are much more newbie-friendly due to the cap bonus being in-built. Furthermore, there are no particular reasons anymore to fit a Punisher with anything except lasers unless you specifically lack laser skills. Cruiser/Battlecruiser class ships 1) Give 40% cap reduction to medium lasers of all types. 2) Replace the 10% laser cap use bonus with a 5% laser damage bonus on the following ships: Prophecy, Maller, Omen. 3) Replace the 10% laser cap use bonus with 10% laser optimal range/level on the following ships: Absolution, Harbringer, Zealot. This will give them more actual DPS at ranges they should operate (mid-range) since they will be able to use high-damage ammo more efficently. 4) Increase base capacitor amount by 5% on all Cruiser/Battlecruiser sized Amarr laser ships to accomodate the lack of final 10% cap use at ship skill V. 5) Reduce grid usage of Heavy Pulses by 15 PG to make HP fitting more viable on T1 cruisers. 6) Give Omen 70 more grid (to make the base 800 grid), 20 more CPU (so base 270 CPU) to make for easier fitting of HPs. 7) Give the Maller 50 more grid (to make the base grid 950), 20 more CPU (so base CPU is 300) to make HP fitting more viable. 8) Give Harbringer 20 more base CPU. It is harder to T2 fit then many other battlecruisers due to CPU restrictions. 9) Reduce Omen mass from 11950000 to 11750000. Since it is not a very tanked cruiser, it must be at least a bit more mobile. 10) Remove the utility highslot from the Prophecy and give it the direly needed fourth midslot. It goes without saying that three-midslot BC-sized ships are gimped. I think that would fix the cruiser/BC/frig/destroyer classes very well. I think similar fixes could be applied to the BS class. There, something constructive. Also, rationale for changes is included. I think those changes would both make Amarr more noob-friendly (remove the need to train ship skill IV/V etc to be effective), give the ships which do bad DPS a bit better DPS and ships which do good DPS better DPS at range (due to the ability to use higher-damage ammo at longer range effectively), plus make certain ships with horrible fitting problems better (Omen primarily). They should still make sacrifices to fit HP IIs, same as Gallente for Neutron blaster IIs or Minmatar for 425mm AC IIs, with being able to fit good FMP II fits. Also fixes up the Prophecy, since three-midslot BCs are fail. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ion Hound Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.21 13:28:00 - [1704] I must support this thread. Have been flying amarr ships in pvp since my day one, I am now considering training for another race... While in some situations amarr ships can perform good enough, other race ships are just better generally. With current combat mechanics minmatar, gallente and even caldari ships seem to be more versatile. I could write a list of amarrian drawbacks and make innovative suggestions how to fix them, but probably everything was said already in this 50page thread, so I leave it to the great minds of Eve. Although I just can't resist to make a single comment: Omen is the worst cruiser ever! It does not have a role, seriously lacks in PG and CPU. It is literally useless atm. Thank you. I hope for some positive changes in the future.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.21 14:39:00 - [1705] Edited by: PeacefullNub on 21/01/2008 14:42:35 Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/01/2008 13:33:14 Originally by: PeacefullNub c2) They worked on solutions in silence (realy stupid - there is no harm in discussing possible solutions with custumers to see their reaction. In the end we will fly new ships - not devs) Well, they did not reply to the Khanid Mk 2 thread either. They did almost exactly as proposed, and have made a line of awesome ships (yes, they do not use lasers, but Khanid were not meant to use lasers anyway). So don't rule c2) out as a option - they've done it before, and done it very well. That exacly what happens when they do not discussed their boost plans with player comunity. They create awesome ships indeed but.. Did they solve laser problem? No - they simply replace it. Did they thinked about that amarrs will be most SP heavy race in game? No - they simply created good ships, when you look at them apart from all other amarr ships theme (i wonder why they not added shield tanking on them). All that happens only becouse they were silent. Is it realy was so diffcult to discuss incoming boost before finaly use it? To hear pro and cons that players see in this decisions? But they keep silence and now they wounder why after "khanid boost" amarrs still whining Originally by: Cpt Branko Solution, in my view: general game solutions: 1) Fix damn reload jamming bug Laser problem solutions 1) Decrease lasercapusage of all lasers by 40-50% 2) Remowe laser_cap_repuction bonus from all ships (this bonus is useless artifact from 2004) 3) give: dps bonuses to all laser ships without it, defensive/general bonuses to all ships with it 4) reduce beams fit reqs by 10-15% Alternative solution 1) Sanshas solution - 1/2 turrets slots +100% damage faction bonus (also replacing laser_cap_usage bonus with something usefull) Khanid ships 1) Give them additional laser bonus so ppsl can chose betwin laserboat and missile boat 2) Remove lasers from the game and replace them with missiles (CCP likes to avoid a problems with missiles, arent they?) 3) Give all amarr characters missile skills (even if it means more started SP than other races) 4) Simply return lasers and laser bonuses on them after laser problem fixing - khanid ships will be still awesome, but not for caldary and minmatar Originally by: Ion hound I could write a list of amarrian drawbacks and make innovative suggestions how to fix them, but probably everything was said already in this 50page thread, so I leave it to the great minds of Eve. No - we like to hear them - more solution posts - better
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.21 15:00:00 - [1706] What baffles me is that ccp gave us great khanid ships by: Removing their crap fake laser cap use bonus and replaced it with a missile one, ie removing a **** bonus and also changing main weapons to a non-borked weapon. They also gave us a tier 3 battleship that DOESNT use the cap bonus but performs well in its area of use. Youd have to be a moron if you cant see that lasers and laser cap bonus are borked and need a fix. Harsh but true... ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.01.21 15:27:00 - [1707] What I agree on is that lasers use too much cap. But lately i've been thinking and toying around with the idea of actually keeping the cap reduction bonus for lasers. Let me explain: If you lower general cap usage from energy weapons by... say 10%. AND you keep the cap bonus for the weapon, at maximum skill level you will use less cap than today, maybe even less than hybrids (remember, we're the cap race, so why not?) and much more important, you will reach the USEABLE level to be competitive sooner than now. From my almost 2 years experience of flying amarr, I find that anything below level 4 in shipskill AND controlled bursts PLUS capskills is just horribly underpowered because you kill your own ship by using lasers. (Cap is life!) Level 4 skills are just a pain in the ass to fly but manageable and to even begin to perform on roughly equivalent "normal" levels, you need maxed skills. So in my humble opinion, a good first step would be to lower overall capacitor usage by energy weapons and additionally keep the cap reduction bonus (which will turn into a cap advantage at high levels) and see how it works out. Modest proposal, nothing gamebreaking, easy to try out without upsetting anyones balance. Thoughts? Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up*
Vagel	Posted - 2008.01.21 15:32:00 - [1708] If there was only khanid ships of every shiptype, then we amarr could at least avoid the gimped lasers. I would love lasers IF they: 1) Didnt use as much cap 2) Could use 3 types of damage 3) Supplemented the ships - meaning, the ships had any USEFULL bonus to lasers. If you are Amarr, you would know this allready, but it's SO annoying that you need to crosstrain for better ships and turrets/bays - since our ships/turrets doesnt work.
Poister Amarr THEM. Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2008.01.21 16:55:00 - [1709] Originally by: Vagel If there was only khanid ships of every shiptype. Why should we have to train Missiles on top of lasers just to be semi effective?? Just fix the problems, donÆt add to them. Still no Dev reply in this thread? Disgraceful!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.21 17:25:00 - [1710] Edited by: Goumindong on 21/01/2008 17:25:25 Originally by: Cpt Branko Well, they did not reply to the Khanid Mk 2 thread either. They did almost exactly as proposed, and have made a line of awesome ships (yes, they do not use lasers, but Khanid were not meant to use lasers anyway). So don't rule c2) out as a option - they've done it before, and done it very well. They did not do almost as exactly as proposed. Sarmaul's suggestions were much weaker and of different style than the implementation that CCP decided upon. Quote: 1) Give 40% cap reduction to small lasers of both types. 2) Replace the 10% laser cap use bonus with a 5% laser damage bonus for all Frigate/Destroyer sized vessels. 3) Replace the Retribution's extra highslot with a midslot - one midslot ships are a joke. 4) Increase base capacitor amount by 5% on all Frigate/Destroyer sized Amarr laser ships to accomodate the lack of final 10% cap use at ship skill V. The coercer is the best destroyer in the game, it doesnt need to be better. Quote: Cruiser/Battlecruiser class ships 1) Give 40% cap reduction to medium lasers of all types. 2) A Bunch of Overpowered Cra 2) 5% dmg does not fix the Prophecy or Maller 3) Optimal Range increase breaks the Absolution, Zealot, and Harbinger[as in, overpowers them] 6) Omen needs much more than 70 PG IIRC 10) No. The Prophecy is a battlecruiser. All battlecruiers ought to have a spare slot for a gang module. A 4th med also wont really fix the ship. Originally by: PeacefullNub Did they thinked about that amarrs will be most SP heavy race in game? Khanid has nothing to do with Amarr being skill intensive. All the Khanid changes were awesome, and it only makes you look like an idiot when you whine and ***** about them.

PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.21 17:27:00 - [1711] Originally by: Blutreiter If you lower general cap usage from energy weapons by... say 10%. AND you keep the cap bonus for the weapon, at maximum skill level you will use less cap than today, maybe even less than hybrids (remember, we're the cap race, so why not?) and much more important, you will reach the USEABLE level to be competitive sooner than now. ... Thoughts? While you compare lasers vs hybrids its looks good. But if you compare lasers vs projektiles... Its allways better to use AC on amarr ships becouse: a) Better damage versatility -> better real dps (even without ship dps bonuses - you can chose weakest enemy resist) b) 0 cap usage -> 100% cap reduction bonus (no matter of your lvl) laser_cap_reduction bonus must been replaced (or all weapons must use cap - including projektiles and missiles - so this bonus have some sense)
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.01.21 17:44:00 - [1712] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: Blutreiter If you lower general cap usage from energy weapons by... say 10%. AND you keep the cap bonus for the weapon, at maximum skill level you will use less cap than today, maybe even less than hybrids (remember, we're the cap race, so why not?) and much more important, you will reach the USEABLE level to be competitive sooner than now. ... Thoughts? While you compare lasers vs hybrids its looks good. But if you compare lasers vs projektiles... Its allways better to use AC on amarr ships becouse: a) Better damage versatility -> better real dps (even without ship dps bonuses - you can chose weakest enemy resist) b) 0 cap usage -> 100% cap reduction bonus (no matter of your lvl) laser_cap_reduction bonus must been replaced (or all weapons must use cap - including projektiles and missiles - so this bonus have some sense) Indeed. Projectiles should in fact use cap, if only 1 point, for balance sake. But i'd still be quite comfortable if I used less cap for firing lasers on Amarr ships than hybrids with maxed skills. This would make "uses x% less cap per skill" a real bonus. IF you get ADVANTAGES with high skills over other weapon systems. Here i'd say, being capefficient with very high skills plus our current strengths (high optimal) would be a real selling point over projectiles... on Amarr ships only. Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up*
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.21 18:02:00 - [1713] Originally by: Goumindong Khanid has nothing to do with Amarr being skill intensive. All the Khanid changes were awesome, and it only makes you look like an idiot when you whine and ***** about them. Im a noob. maybe you right - how long it takes to learn all rockets and HAM related skills (including generaly dps + range skills)? And where could i use them beside 1 ceptor 1 af 1 HAC and 1 comand ship? When i trained gunnery skills i know at least that amarr frigs, then cruisers, then bc, then bs, even dreads need them
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.21 18:33:00 - [1714] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: Goumindong Khanid has nothing to do with Amarr being skill intensive. All the Khanid changes were awesome, and it only makes you look like an idiot when you whine and ***** about them. Im a noob. maybe you right - how long it takes to learn all rockets and HAM related skills (including generaly dps + range skills)? And where could i use them beside 1 ceptor 1 af 1 HAC and 1 comand ship? When i trained gunnery skills i know at least that amarr frigs, then cruisers, then bc, then bs, even dreads need them it doesnt take long to learn HAMs and supports to a reasonable level. Train them after you get into HACs.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.21 19:25:00 - [1715] Originally by: Goumindong it doesnt take long to learn HAMs and supports to a reasonable level. Train them after you get into HACs. It takes for me 154d to learn ham II and rokets + all suport skills at 5 It takes 13d just to use hams II + 17 days to learn support skills at 3-4 lvl. it takes 23 days to use any other racial AF, ceptor, hac, recon, command (racial frigate lvl 5 + racial cruiser lvl 5). So i must ask you a question: if you must to chose: all racial t1 and t2 ships (without Indi, BS and capitals) or only 4 ships at decent lvl (3-4 lvl of missiles skills) - what will be your answer? Why i must spend my time to learn missiles just to fly 4 ships at decent lvl, if i can just learn gallente\minmatar ships at that time and use similar weapon systems, same ship classes and my gunnery skills. I even may use ishkur and ishtar - at least drone SP needed for amarr recons and carriers. Im never said that khanid mk II are bad. They just more usefull to learn for caldary (who has missile specialization and many missile ships for later usage) than for pure amarr.
Aindrias Amarr Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.01.22 04:16:00 - [1716] This topic is too important to not be on the first page
Hitme Harder HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2008.01.22 06:05:00 - [1717] I'd just like to add that the paladin is the ultimate mission runner and the geddon is one of the BEST fleet snipers and is also the cheapest fleet sniper, and also doesn't have to reload in lagged fights, and good for pos shot. Templar, an ammarr fighter drone, used by carriers.
burek Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.01.22 08:07:00 - [1718] Ok, I'm noticing a disturbing pattern here and it's a bit annoying. People saying why do I have to learn missiles to use a few ships. Have you had a look at other races? Minmatar have to learn guns & missiles. Gallente have to learn missiles for only a couple ships. Caldari have to learn hybrids for some ships. That argument is invalid and imo only makes any DEV facepalm, if by some odd chance any read this thread. Argument like that just cause people to dismiss the actual valid points buried among a ton of ****.
Ion Hound Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.22 09:25:00 - [1719] Originally by: burek Ok, I'm noticing a disturbing pattern here and it's a bit annoying. People saying why do I have to learn missiles to use a few ships. Have you had a look at other races? Minmatar have to learn guns & missiles. Gallente have to learn missiles for only a couple ships. Caldari have to learn hybrids for some ships. That argument is invalid and imo only makes any DEV facepalm, if by some odd chance any read this thread. Argument like that just cause people to dismiss the actual valid points buried among a ton of ****. the khanid ships is not the main question here. People are arguing that amarr ships with current game mechanics are not as effective as other race ships in general.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.22 09:44:00 - [1720] Originally by: burek Ok, I'm noticing a disturbing pattern here and it's a bit annoying. People saying why do I have to learn missiles to use a few ships. Have you had a look at other races? I had. And had you tried to look at amarr skills and amarr ships before posting this nonsense? Originally by: burek Minmatar have to learn guns & missiles. No - you can chose projektile ships or projektile+missile ships in allmost all categories (how many ships have missile bonuses?). You can easily avoid missiles if you dont whant to train them and still find good turret ship to fly. Originally by: burek Gallente have to learn missiles for only a couple ships. rly? for what ships they realy need missiles (dont tell me about 1 SB)? They may use high drone specialization or hybrid specialization. They have drone ships and hybrid ships to chose in all classes. Originally by: burek Caldari have to learn hybrids for some ships. They have at least 1 missile and 1 hybrid ship in allmost all t1 and t2 classes. Originally by: burek That argument is invalid Now try to look at amarr: -> all frigs use lases and have laser bonuses -> all laser cruisers are crap and arbi needs high drone skills -> all BC use lasers -> all BS use lasers T1 ships have laser specialisation (with exeption of arbi) -> khanid ships need rokets and hams, sb need cruises -> ew frig and recons need drones -> all other t2 ships need lasers Now try to show amarr pilot way to avoid training gunery and use only missile or drone spec. You cant - becouse 1) there is no t1 drone frig, drone bc, drone bs for full drone thread (now look at gallente for example) 2) there is no t1 missile ships at all (now look at caldary) 3) only laser (gunery) thread is possible of course you can buy specialised char (or use 6 mounth to train t2 alt for sacre without gunery at all) - but its different story .

Josson Turtur Gallente Trader's Academy	Posted - 2008.01.22 10:04:00 - [1721] The only thing the Amarr is good at is oppressing people! DOWN WITH AMARR! NERF EM BACK TO THE EVE GATE! _ Miner, Trader, Space Cowboy Josson Turtur
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.22 10:50:00 - [1722] Originally by: PeacefullNub Im never said that khanid mk II are bad. They just more usefull to learn for caldary (who has missile specialization and many missile ships for later usage) than for pure amarr. No, it means you're lazy to train anything except ship skills and lasers. Caldari have to train guns to use their entire ship line-up in addition to missiles, Gallente have to train drones to be competitive in addition to guns, and Minmatar need guns, missiles and drones imo ;) Anyway, Khanid MK II were PLAYER-REQUESTED changes. Originally by: Goumindong They did not do almost as exactly as proposed. Sarmaul's suggestions were much weaker and of different style than the implementation that CCP decided upon. Well, OK, not exactly. Truth be told, I remember the thread kindof vaguely, but I do remember Sarmaul did suggest armour-tanking missile ships. It IS annoying when you get a noob saying 'oooh, nobody wanted Amarr missile ships, booo hooo training'. Khanid with mixed missile/laser slots were a abomination and horribly broken. Originally by: Goumindong Quote: 1) Give 40% cap reduction to small lasers of both types. 2) Replace the 10% laser cap use bonus with a 5% laser damage bonus for all Frigate/Destroyer sized vessels. 3) Replace the Retribution's extra highslot with a midslot - one midslot ships are a joke. 4) Increase base capacitor amount by 5% on all Frigate/Destroyer sized Amarr laser ships to accomodate the lack of final 10% cap use at ship skill V. The coercer is the best destroyer in the game, it doesnt need to be better. Maybe. The Thrasher is very competitive to the Coercer if not better, and can be used for more things due to, well, differently distributed slots. Really, 5% damage + 4 mids is the way to fix the Prophecy. All battlecruisers do not have the fully 'spare' slot for a gang module anyway (you have to sacrifice a HAM launcher on the minmatar ones). I don't see any other way, really. 5% damage would make the Maller much more competitive. As for giving the optimal bonus to the 'good ships', well, giving them another damage bonus would overpower them. Giving them a tracking bonus; no, would really make them too good. Tracking bonuses on long-range guns are incredibly powerful. Giving them a optimal range bonus basically gives them heavier damage at range (since you could use higher damage ammo and still stick at your preffered range), which is quite strong, but if you remove the cap use bonus, what the hell can you do with the Zealot/Harbringer/Absolution? Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: PeacefullNub Did they thinked about that amarrs will be most SP heavy race in game? Khanid has nothing to do with Amarr being skill intensive. All the Khanid changes were awesome, and it only makes you look like an idiot when you whine and ***** about them. This. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.22 11:26:00 - [1723] Originally by: Cpt Branko No, it means you're lazy to train anything except ship skills and lasers. Yes - im lazy. I hate to do useless job. So i try to made racional decisions. Originally by: Cpt Branko Caldari have to train guns to use their entire ship line-up in addition to missiles. Nonsense. Most caldary players dont even know what is tracking - they entierly happy with missiles only. Originally by: Cpt Branko Same way you have to forget about Khanid MK II if you are not willing to go through a relatively short train to get missiles and decent skills for them. Explain me - why it takes less time to crosstrain gallente to use their t2 ships then to use my own? For khanid mkII line to work properly devs must give maller, prophesy, apoc (maybe paladin) missile bonuses and missile slots - so amarr player could chose missile+drones or gunnery+drones from the start and not gunnery+drones+missiles. But they didnt.
Hitme Harder HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2008.01.22 12:27:00 - [1724] Originally by: PeacefullNub For khanid mkII line to work properly devs must give maller, prophesy, apoc (maybe paladin) missile bonuses and missile slots - so amarr player could chose missile+drones or gunnery+drones from the start and not gunnery+drones+missiles. But they didnt. Why on earth would you want paladin to be a missile boat? Its the ultimate laser boat, combining the bonuses of Apocalypse and Abbadon into one super-battleship. Templar, an ammarr fighter drone, used by carriers.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.22 13:15:00 - [1725] Originally by: Hitme Harder Why on earth would you want paladin to be a missile boat? Dont make a mistake - i dont whant it. I just tried to show for some non-amarr players why amarrs MUST train 3 different weapon systems (unlike all other races) in order to use t1 and t2 ships, and what needs to be done to solve it. To use missile+drones or gunnery+drones we need to have at least 1 ship with same weaponsystem in all (allmost) categories - including T2 BS. (at least thats fair). That means redeemer or paladin must use missiles. I think that paladin is better choise. Its optional - but if all amarr t2 BS use gunnery - that means gunnery+drone thread is better to learn. (look at caldary for example - they have disbalanced missile ship thread - gunnery thread gives poor choise) Of course all that i said about t1 missile ships will never happen - CCP dont (or dont whant to) see any problem with khanid ship thread.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.22 14:46:00 - [1726] Originally by: PeacefullNub It takes for me 154d to learn ham II and rokets + all suport skills at 5 It takes 13d just to use hams II + 17 days to learn support skills at 3-4 lvl. it takes 23 days to use any other racial AF, ceptor, hac, recon, command (racial frigate lvl 5 + racial cruiser lvl 5). 23 days for the hull. More for the weapons and tanking[if necessary]. Quote: if you must to chose: I'd rather specialized and fly the fewer ships better. Its actually faster for an Amarr specialzed player to fly the ships than it is for a Caldari Specialized player to fly the ships. Originally by: PeacefullNub No - you can chose projektile ships or projektile+missile ships in allmost all categories (how many ships have missile bonuses?). You can easily avoid missiles if you dont whant to train them and still find good turret ship to fly. There are a total of three Minmitar ships which do not benefit greatly by adding missiles of various sizes. The Sleipnir, Claymore, and Maelstrom. Two of these require impecable leadership skills of higher quality than the missile skills in order to not gain these benefits and the other tech 2 large guns, the single longest skilltrain in the game. Amarr do need a lot of skills to be effective. Mainly because we need so many more level 5s in order to extract the range advantage that we have. But training missile skills is not some terrible onus on the players. Originally by: Cpt Branko Well, OK, not exactly. Truth be told, I remember the thread kindof vaguely, but I do remember Sarmaul did suggest armour-tanking missile ships. It IS annoying when you get a noob saying 'oooh, nobody wanted Amarr missile ships, booo hooo training'. Khanid with mixed missile/laser slots were a abomination and horribly broken.. Well, frankly, i would have gone with true shield tanking laser boats[I.E. similar slotting compared to Caldari ships, but eh, either way is better than what they were. Originally by: Cpt Branko Maybe... No, not maybe. The Coercer is just plain better than the thrasher at the things they both do, which is kill frigates. 5% damage and 4 meds would not fix the punisher. The only ships which dont have spare slots for gang mods are Gallente, and they ought to. Losing supplimentary damage for a gang mod is a no brainer. 5% damage would make the maller more competitive like perfume makes a piece of ** smell better. Its still smells like a piece of . Quote:** As for giving the optimal bonus to the 'good ships', well, giving them another damage bonus would overpower them. Giving them a tracking bonus; no, would really make them too good. Tracking bonuses on long-range guns are incredibly powerful. Newsflash. Optimal range bonuses are even better on long range guns
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.22 15:07:00 - [1727] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 22/01/2008 15:08:17 Originally by: Goumindong No, not maybe. The Coercer is just plain better than the thrasher at the things they both do, which is kill frigates. Well, yes, it preforms amazingly well. Honestly, the lack of mids (not the lack of firepower or anything, if nothing the Coercer is vastly better then the Gallente and even Caldari dessy) always bothered me for any small gang usage where the Thrashers do a hell of a job, since you can fit a MWD, point and MSE (if you are using ACs) or whatever (if you are using arties). I do feel that that is kindof beyond the scope of the discussion though ;) Originally by: Goumindong 5% damage and 4 meds would not fix the punisher (Prophecy). The only ships which dont have spare slots for gang mods are Gallente, and they ought to. Losing supplimentary damage for a gang mod is a no brainer. Prophecy, you mean - anyway, they would make it a vastly better combat ship. If you want to run a gang mod, you can plate the Prophecy and have a awesome buffer tank anyway and if you give it a 5% damage (what's 20% damage at sensible skills or 25% with top) and remove the extra highslot for a mid, you can still do more DPS with using a gang mod instead of a gun and have a fourth midslot. So, in whatever situation, 5% damage and 4 meds would make it better then it is now, and I am quite sure it would, in fact, fix the ship. It would have a better tank (even active, with cap boosters) then the Harbringer and have somewhat less firepower, which is a fair trade-off. It would make it a very capable Tier 1 BC. Originally by: Goumindong 5% damage would make the maller more competitive like perfume makes a piece of ** smell better. Its still smells like a piece of . I think 5% damage on the Maller (in addition to lowering HP requirements a bit and giving the Maller just a bit more fittings, I believe I suggested both) would make it a competitive cruiser. Would it still be somewhat inferior to a Thorax at short-range? Yes. Should it be inferior to a Thorax at point-blank? Yes, of course it damn well should. Originally by:** Goumindong Quote: As for giving the optimal bonus to the 'good ships', well, giving them another damage bonus would overpower them. Giving them a tracking bonus; no, would really make them too good. Tracking bonuses on long-range guns are incredibly powerful. Newsflash. Optimal range bonuses are even better on long range guns Well, I meant short-range guns which have the capability to hit at medium range. See, give it tracking and it toasts tacklers coming after it. Give it optimal, and it's silly awesome with beams, haven't considered that (don't use long-rage guns, since I do mostly small gang combat where it's not too feasible to do so). What can you give to these ships to not break em? Cap amount? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.22 15:34:00 - [1728] Edited by: Goumindong on 22/01/2008 15:35:02 Originally by: Cpt Branko Well, yes, it preforms amazingly well. Honestly, the lack of mids (not the lack of firepower or anything, if nothing the Coercer is vastly better then the Gallente and even Caldari dessy) always bothered me for any small gang usage where the Thrashers do a hell of a job, since you can fit a MWD, point and MSE (if you are using ACs) or whatever (if you are using arties). I do feel that that is kindof beyond the scope of the discussion though ;) What could you give the Coercer instead of cap use? Cap amount seems kindof pointless honestly, more tracking is not needed anyway and would make it too sick, armour resists are rather pointless for a destroyer (although, I guess, could give it 2-3 more seconds of firing before explosion). Hm. Just leave it alone. Armor HP/Resists wouldnt be too bad. Or more fitting. But really you can just leave it alone, its fine. All destroyers are fairly weak for small gang work, but good in large fights. That the thrasher is better in large fights is like saying a pulse geddon is better in large fights compared with an AC tempest. But since they are both utterly useless its not really a good thing. A low skill tech 1 stabber or rupture will be better than the thrasher in small gang work. Quote: Prophecy, you mean - anyway, they would make it a vastly better combat ship. Or you could run a harbinger with 50% more damage and 12-15% less tank[of even that] Quote: I think 5% damage on the Maller (in addition to lowering HP requirements a bit and giving the Maller just a bit more fittings, I believe I suggested both) would make it a competitive cruiser. Would it still be somewhat inferior to a Thorax at short-range? Yes. Should it be inferior to a Thorax at point-blank? Yes, of course it damn well should. Inferior to a thorax at point blank, to a moa in the long range, to a rupture in the medium range[and long range], and to an Omen in the long, short, and any range. Quote: Well, I meant short-range guns which have the capability to hit at medium range. See, give it tracking and it toasts tacklers coming after it. Give it optimal, and it's silly awesome with beams, haven't considered that (don't use long-rage guns, since I do mostly small gang combat where it's not too feasible to do so). What can you give to these ships to not break em? Cap amount? Not sure, but really its not a simple bonus.
AK trader	Posted - 2008.01.22 23:11:00 - [1729] /Signed
Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.23 14:36:00 - [1730] Well, as promised, it's been over 15 pages since the last time I posted this. So I'm back with my short list of cast-iron solutions to the Amarr issue (all of which ought be ludicrously easy to test/implement - no complex mathematical astrophysics tasks required by CCP). I'll keep posting this as long as this thread is alive and the devs refuse to publicly comment on the clear, legitimate issues of Amarr - in particular, the severely gimped laser weapons. Although there have been some additional points made about tracking and such (incidentally, why not improve the tracking of just Quad Beams, so these oddball guns can at least have a role as anti-frig weapons?), the central points remain... From where I sit, it seems we can distill 90% of what people are saying down to two or three things, upon which most everyone can agree: 1.) Base Resistances - Base EM resists on Shield/Armor should go from 0%/60% to something more like 15%/45%. EM is still the weakest resistance on shields and the strongest resistance on armor. The ratio is still there, but in one simple step the Omnitank issue would be addressed. You can keep your EANMs exactly the way they are. 2.) Reduce laser cap use - A lot of numbers have been thrown around and certainly CCP should run them all through their version of Big Blue to get as close as possible to what would be balanced and fair. But it looks like 40-50% is what many feel would be close. It would also open up energy weapons to at least be considered by other races, thus adding to the variety and innovation inherent to EVE gameplay. 3.) Change ship bonuses - After Point 2 is addressed, lose the cap bonuses and replace them with real ship bonuses. Is there anyone left anywhere in EVE that doesn't agree on this one by now? My own bonus assertion: 4.) Nerf MWDs. These modules are the sole reason there IS NO "medium range combat" in EVE. All fights are either at long-range sniper or short-range blaster distances. Scale MWD module attributes according to ship classes and reduce their ubiquity in PvP. MWD has drastically imbalanced EVE. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The Devs have mentioned in the past that any time any one module is being used by everyone in a game that it suggests there's a game imbalance. Well, guess what... UPDATE: With the upcoming speed nerf, perhaps there will be changes that bring a return to mid-range combat. Ideas recently discussed involve longer range webbing modules, allowing Amarr ships the ability to dictate more midrange fights. But, at this point, any reasonable nerf to speed can only (slightly) help Amarr. -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.23 15:26:00 - [1731] Originally by: Meridius Dex Well, as promised, it's been over 15 pages since the last time I posted this. So I'm back with my short list of cast-iron solutions to the Amarr issue (all of which ought be ludicrously easy to test/implement - no complex mathematical astrophysics tasks required by CCP). These solutions dont work at all, let alone being "cast-iron"
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.23 15:31:00 - [1732] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Meridius Dex Well, as promised, it's been over 15 pages since the last time I posted this. So I'm back with my short list of cast-iron solutions to the Amarr issue (all of which ought be ludicrously easy to test/implement - no complex mathematical astrophysics tasks required by CCP). These solutions dont work at all, let alone being "cast-iron" I'm afraid I'l have to agree with this one. At least on a good amount of the suggestions. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.23 16:42:00 - [1733] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/01/2008 16:44:42 Originally by: Meridius Dex My own bonus assertion: 4.) Nerf MWDs. These modules are the sole reason there IS NO "medium range combat" in EVE. All fights are either at long-range sniper or short-range blaster distances. Scale MWD module attributes according to ship classes and reduce their ubiquity in PvP. MWD has drastically imbalanced EVE. Then nerf web, one of the most overpowered modules in EvE (way more powerful then MWD), the module which completely kills any sort of speed tank which operates in webrange, obsoletes the afterburner and makes it utterly impossible to go out of bubbles or burn back to the gate on a afterburner alone. Currently, having a module which gives you one tenth of your speed (as opposed to MWD's six times the speed in the best case because of MWD mass addition) demands the existence of MWD and completely obsoletes the module which merely doubles (and a bit) your speed, the AB. There you go. Furthermore, give long range webs and the be-all end all of EvE is the battleship blob. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.23 21:32:00 - [1734] Originally by: Goumindong These solutions dont work at all, let alone being "cast-iron" I disagree. They are perfectly viable and ought be investigated by devs, if not immediately implemented. -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.23 22:08:00 - [1735] Originally by: Meridius Dex Originally by: Goumindong These solutions dont work at all, let alone being "cast-iron" I disagree. They are perfectly viable and ought be investigated by devs, if not immediately implemented. That's great, you're wrong. Some ships dont need new bonuses, some ships wont be fixed by new bonuses. Such, new bonuses cannot fix the ships. Only a few ships could be fixed by new bonuses, but those would then provide problems in other areas.
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.23 22:55:00 - [1736] Originally by: PeacefullNub Now try to look at amarr: -> all frigs use lases and have laser bonuses -> all laser cruisers are crap and arbi needs high drone skills -> all BC use lasers -> all BS use lasers T1 ships have laser specialisation (with exeption of arbi) -> khanid ships need rokets and hams, sb need cruises -> ew frig and recons need drones -> all other t2 ships need lasers Now try to show amarr pilot way to avoid training gunery and use only missile or drone spec. You cant - becouse 1) there is no t1 drone frig, drone bc, drone bs for full drone thread (now look at gallente for example) 2) there is no t1 missile ships at all (now look at caldary) 3) only laser (gunery) thread is possible of course you can buy specialised char (or use 6 mounth to train t2 alt for sacre without gunery at all) - but its different story . Well, I must admit that not training drones is rather dumb for any pilot using turret ships. You're highly ineficient in missions without drones, and I'm pretty sure it's important in PvP too. Having sai that, I do feel that Amarr is the only race which has to train turrets, launchers AND drones now, if we want to use all the ships we have at our disposal. ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
SkyCrane	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:19:00 - [1737] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Technically speaking, due to the whole 'midrange' thing, Amarr should be the race with the webbing recons... Actually, that's not enough... Amarr t1 ships should have web range bonuses, like the Apoc of the Geddon or the Harbinger or the Omen... In fact, take every Amarr ship that has a cap use bonus on it, and change that to 25% to web range, so at level 5, a web is 22.5km on an Amarr ship, or in other words MIDRANGE... I'm willing to live with enormous cap use if that comes in... /signed.... ------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: Please feel free to ignore typoes... I suck at typing... :)
Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:55:00 - [1738] Originally by: Goumindong That's great, you're wrong. Some ships dont need new bonuses, some ships wont be fixed by new bonuses. Such, new bonuses cannot fix the ships. Only a few ships could be fixed by new bonuses, but those would then provide problems in other areas. How is fixing the EM ratio not the best way to address omnitanks (without having to change EANMs at all, I might add)? Why are all these tards so in love with that stupid 0/60 ratio? It's absurd. 15/45 would still leave EM as the weakest resistance on shield (while encouraging more shield tankers, something I read the devs would like to see more) and the strongest on armor. It just would not be as out of whack as it is now. Hell, even 10/50 would be an improvement. I still have not seen one legitimate counter-argument to the idea of changing the base resists for EM. Forget crystals with different damage types, shifting lasers more to thermal, etc, etc. That's all bunk. Change the base resistances, fix EM damage. Period. Simple. Problem solved. Move on. So you keep cap bonuses on those ships you think may still need it. That doesn't change the fact that laser cap use ought to be fixed - and long before now. Even if you keep many of the ship cap bonuses roughly the same and reduced the cap use on lasers by 30%, you'd have better balance than we do now. Goumindong, you seem avowed to keeping Amarr permanently gimped versus other races. That's fine if you have eleventy-billion skill points, as I'm sure you do. But just because you can fly them half-decently with maxed out skills doesn't mean they aren't seriously gimped all the same for the rest of us. There are three main problems with Amarr: 1. Lasers 2. Lasers 3. and Lasers The issue of mid-range combat being utterly nonexistent, in the age of MWD, comes next on that list. -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.24 00:13:00 - [1739] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/01/2008 00:14:52 Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Technically speaking, due to the whole 'midrange' thing, Amarr should be the race with the webbing recons... Actually, that's not enough... Amarr t1 ships should have web range bonuses, like the Apoc of the Geddon or the Harbinger or the Omen... In fact, take every Amarr ship that has a cap use bonus on it, and change that to 25% to web range, so at level 5, a web is 22.5km on an Amarr ship, or in other words MIDRANGE... I'm willing to live with enormous cap use if that comes in... /signed.... Also, give Amarr 40km scram range, so we can finally delete the Minmatar and Gallente EAFs and forget about their stupid recons. It's stupid Ammarians have to train for those just to be able to toast any interceptor ever tackling them. I also propose to give Amarr 250% damage boost, 100% tracking boost, and 100% optimal just in case, also multiply their cap amount by ten times and give all the ships 125m3 bandwidth, they need the love. Also, give them a 50% speed boost, because it's lame how short-range ships can ever catch longer ranged ships, too. And 100% agility would be nice, plus 2-3 points of free WCS so if you do somehow get tackled and cannot hit a webbed inty you can just warpoff. Also, give Amarr all four damage types without penalities, too. Perfectly balanced. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.24 00:14:00 - [1740] Originally by: Meridius Dex There are three main problems with Amarr: 1. Amarr 2. Amarr 3. and Amarr Agreed. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

Amberly Coteaz Amarr Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.24 00:38:00 - [1741] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/01/2008 00:14:52 Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: Felysta Sandorn snip snip Also, give Amarr 40km scram range, so we can finally delete the Minmatar and Gallente EAFs and forget about their stupid recons. It's stupid Ammarians have to train for those just to be able to toast any interceptor ever tackling them. I also propose to give Amarr 250% damage boost, 100% tracking boost, and 100% optimal just in case, also multiply their cap amount by ten times and give all the ships 125m3 bandwidth, they need the love. Also, give them a 50% speed boost, because it's lame how short-range ships can ever catch longer ranged ships, too. And 100% agility would be nice, plus 2-3 points of free WCS so if you do somehow get tackled and cannot hit a webbed inty you can just warpoff. Also, give Amarr all four damage types without penalities, too. Perfectly balanced. If you find yourself in a fair fight, something has gone wrong
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.24 01:07:00 - [1742] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/01/2008 00:14:52 Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Technically speaking, due to the whole 'midrange' thing, Amarr should be the race with the webbing recons... Actually, that's not enough... Amarr t1 ships should have web range bonuses, like the Apoc of the Geddon or the Harbinger or the Omen... In fact, take every Amarr ship that has a cap use bonus on it, and change that to 25% to web range, so at level 5, a web is 22.5km on an Amarr ship, or in other words MIDRANGE... I'm willing to live with enormous cap use if that comes in... /signed.... Also, give Amarr 40km scram range, so we can finally delete the Minmatar and Gallente EAFs and forget about their stupid recons. It's stupid Ammarians have to train for those just to be able to toast any interceptor ever tackling them. I also propose to give Amarr 250% damage boost, 100% tracking boost, and 100% optimal just in case, also multiply their cap amount by ten times and give all the ships 125m3 bandwidth, they need the love. Also, give them a 50% speed boost, because it's lame how short-range ships can ever catch longer ranged ships, too. And 100% agility would be nice, plus 2-3 points of free WCS so if you do somehow get tackled and cannot hit a webbed inty you can just warpoff. Also, give Amarr all four damage types without penalities, too. Perfectly balanced. Sarcasm detector explodes Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.24 03:07:00 - [1743] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/01/2008 00:14:52 Originally by: SkyCrane Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Technically speaking, due to the whole 'midrange' thing, Amarr should be the race with the webbing recons... Actually, that's not enough... Amarr t1 ships should have web range bonuses, like the Apoc of the Geddon or the Harbinger or the Omen... In fact, take every Amarr ship that has a cap use bonus on it, and change that to 25% to web range, so at level 5, a web is 22.5km on an Amarr ship, or in other words MIDRANGE... I'm willing to live with enormous cap use if that comes in... /signed.... Also, give Amarr 40km scram range, so we can finally delete the Minmatar and Gallente EAFs and forget about their stupid recons. It's stupid Ammarians have to train for those just to be able to toast any interceptor ever tackling them. I also propose to give Amarr 250% damage boost, 100% tracking boost, and 100% optimal just in case, also multiply their cap amount by ten times and give all the ships 125m3 bandwidth, they need the love. Also, give them a 50% speed boost, because it's lame how short-range ships can ever catch longer ranged ships, too. And 100% agility would be nice, plus 2-3 points of free WCS so if you do somehow get tackled and cannot hit a webbed inty you can just warpoff. Also, give Amarr all four damage types without penalities, too. Perfectly balanced. Hell yea! You know there's always these people who simply reply "amarr is fine, just go crosstrain gallente or something" at these threads. I'd like to have this implented just so I can say gallente/matar/caldari is fine you, just go crosstrain amarr or something.**s. --- Originally by:** Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Dodona Gallente Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.01.24 04:46:00 - [1744] If one of the problems with Amarr laser boats is their inability to keep the fight at midrange and if the laser cap bonus ought to be changed to something else, since lasers don't put out the amounts of damage to make up for it: Change the 10% laser cap use reduction to an X km range bonus to web falloff, while reducing the amount of cap lasers use? This way, Amarr boats can keep their position at optimal range for just a little bit longer. It makes sense, considering the Empire is mortal enemies with the speed-demons of EVE, their ship engineers ought to have thought of a counter. I don't think this would overpower the module (no more than it already is), nor would it obsolete the Huginn or Rapier. Also, it would be valuable to look at statistics; what is the kill/death ratio of Amarr ships? Of the other races? I know this data exists, it just needs to be compiled. This would be the most realistic indicator of strengths and weaknesses, and ought to be assessed.
Atraikius	Posted - 2008.01.24 07:14:00 - [1745] Hello all, I'm a noobie both to the game (been playing about 2 1/2 weeks), and the forum (1st post); and have been interested in the contents of this thread. Just some background: I chose Amarr from their discription because the I found the idea of religeous scifi slavers oddly amusing due to times I played pen and paper RPG's and WH40K - just a kind of haha they sound interesting. Starting out, and just trying to do missions, I had lots of problems learning anything at first; ended up going through 6 ships in my first few days of playing. A friend of mine suggested I cross train to use different weapons like him (mix of rail guns and lasers), but my opinion is that if I'm playing Amarr using different weapons just wasn't right. It took a while but I finally found the missions were a LOT easier when I switched to standard lasers instead of pulse and could hold the NPC ships to around 15km, since then I havn't lost a ship. I've been able to save up money, buy an Omen (which I happen to really like), and started doing level 2 missions. In the process I have put equipment on my ship which fits my playing style (which I later found out was tanking for speed), and have started enjoying the game even more. The whole time it kind of bothered me that it was easier to make a Amarr ship usable for a noobie by using a different races weapons than by using lasers, then late last week I found the stuff on the forums about the issues with the Amarr. Since then I've read through this thread, and as many of the other threads as I could find. The biggest problem I noticed in all of these theads happens to be the same problem I had ran into when I was a Beta Tester for another game a few years ago; and the game designer was kind enough to straighten us out at the time. He pointed out to use that we had so many possible solutions, and so severe, that our 'solutions' would actually break what we were trying to fix worse than it was. His suggestion was to narrow what we wanted to just a few items and change them by a smaller amout. Maybe thats the same thing that needs to be done here, pick 2 - 3 things that could be changed that would help the Amarr, not all the way, but at least make them better, without being overpowering. After the changed are made, if it isn't enough the Amarr players could always say it didn't help enough and ask for a little more of a boost. The biggest complaints that I noticed seemed to be lasers, and simply that people want the Amarr to the best at something. In this I would suggest finding 2 items that would improve lasers, and 1 item that would help the ships. For lasers, my suggestion would be: 1. reduce laser power requirements by 10% - 20% to make fitting easier - enough to free up a slot used to increase power for something else. 2. reduce laser cap use by 5% - 10% so you can fire them a little longer For ships - why do Amarr ships have to be the best tankers, the best gankers, etc..., why not the most versitile? 3. make one more slot avialable on each Amarr ship, a high, med, low, or rig depending on the ship. Thanks for listening (or reading).
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.24 08:58:00 - [1746] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/01/2008 08:59:11 Originally by: Dodona If one of the problems with Amarr laser boats is their inability to keep the fight at midrange Solo they have certain problems keeping the fight at midrange. In (small to medium) gang combat, their ability to hit people at midrange (where you have tacklers) is invaluable and awesome. Caldari (being quite long-ranged) are even slower then Amarr, because, well, if Caldari could overtake Gallente and Minmatar, they'd be overpowered. Not balanced; overpowered. Originally by: Dodona and if the laser cap bonus ought to be changed to something else, since lasers don't put out the amounts of damage to make up for it: Change the 10% laser cap use reduction to an X km range bonus to web falloff, while reducing the amount of cap lasers use? This way, Amarr boats can keep their position at optimal range for just a little bit longer. No, that way you: (a) Effectively delete the Hyena, and render the Huggin/Rapier quite unneccesary. (b) Make Amarr ships essentially untackle-able unless using the long-range interceptor (all depends on range really). (c) Would give Amarr instant gratification instead of making them train the skills required if they want longer-range webs. Are there existing mechanics to extend webrange? Yes, of course. Should it be trivial? No, since webs are incredibly powerful. (d) Make it essentially impossible for any shorter-range boats to get to you. I don't know. Out of the last three ships I killed, two were polycarbon-rigged, and no Huggins/Rapiers or Hyenas were involved in the killing. It's not that hard. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.01.24 11:00:00 - [1747] Originally by: Atraikius ... 2. reduce laser cap use by 5% - 10% so you can fire them a little longer ... Thanks for listening (or reading). That sounds quite like my suggestion a few pages back. Keep the current bonuses but reduce overall capacitor usage by a smaller amount. Funny enough noone bothered to reply to that properly but I didn't get flamed either. I wonder if we're on to something Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up*
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.24 11:23:00 - [1748] Originally by: Cpt Branko I don't know. Out of the last three ships I killed, two were polycarbon-rigged, and no Huggins/Rapiers or Hyenas were involved in the killing. It's not that hard. Just curious - you killed them on omen or maller with lasers?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.24 11:30:00 - [1749] Originally by: Meridius Dex Goumindong, you seem avowed to keeping Amarr permanently gimped versus other races. That's fine if you have eleventy-billion skill points, as I'm sure you do. But just because you can fly them half-decently with maxed out skills doesn't mean they aren't seriously gimped all the same for the rest of us. Ill get to the rest of the post later. But i just wanted to quote this because its utterly hilarious.
Elison Muerte The Halibuts	Posted - 2008.01.24 13:17:00 - [1750] The only thing I know about Amarians is they use lasers that pew pew so I'll sign for long postiness!

Amira Shadowsong Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.24 13:21:00 - [1751] Originally by: Elison Muerte The only thing I know about Amarians is they use lasers that pew pew so I'll sign for long postiness! Lasers are pretty
Iyumi	Posted - 2008.01.24 15:17:00 - [1752] I completely agree with certain points in this thread. 1. Ask anyone for advice on what rigs to fit on an Amarr ship of any kind - 90% bet you will be responded with 3 x CCC. Why is this anyone know? Surely the cap race wouldn't need any more cap regen would they? why not fit dmg rigs or range rigs why CCC? CCP surely has noticed this trend of every Amarr ship utiliting CCC rigs in all 3 rig slots? 2. Restriction to EM/Thermal dmg. 60%/35% resists sucks and guess what everyone gets that as base on their ship's armor. I'm sure if projectile weapons were restricted to ammo that ONLY did kin/exp damage then the Minmatar wouldn't be happy either. Lowering base em/therm resists on armor would be the way to go or at least give lasers optional damage types other than pure em? I like the idea of shields having 15% EM resist and armor having 40% em resist or something along those lines. 3. Short range pulse lasers are terrible for pve - even with a great tank by the time you get into range and can dish out anything respectable you're hurting badly and need to warp out. I've been missioning all my life with amarr ships and I swear by sniper tactics. Oh and good luck killing guristas rats with 1.6mil+ bounty in a mission - their em resists are so insane it takes 10-15 mins just to break their shield and once you do you eat through their armor almost instantly. What sort of resist do they have on their armor seriously? Would be nice if we had more options than only sniping in missions :( So in short: 1. Amarr Have Serious Cap Problems, 2. Every race having high base resist to our primary damage without even needing to fit any tanking pretty much blows us out of the water, 3. Stuck to sniping in missions and if you're fighting any rats that need kin/therm dmg to kill them then enjoy your lengthy laser show with some popcorn or something because you'll watching the pewpewpew for a while... long while... We need more varieties of doing missions not just flying in opposite direciton from enemy with afterburners on and snipe snipe snipe...
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.01.24 15:37:00 - [1753] Edited by: Blutreiter on 24/01/2008 15:38:49 Edited by: Blutreiter on 24/01/2008 15:38:18 Actually cap is in fact manageable if you use Standard (yellow) lenses for the lasers. The big cap problem primarily appears when you use high damage/range ammo... which is non-debatable here due to the dire need to maximize thermal damage output. High range is the only way to utilize our so-called "med range superiority" and the high damage ammo (multifrequency uses 50% more cap) is absolutely necessary to break armortanks. One suggestion here from my side would be - Divide all the cap penalties on Lenses by 2! (e.g. multifreq only needs 25% more cap) This would go a long way to make lasers much more useful. The problem with Amarr here is that other races aren't half as affected by switching ammo because it only affects optimal ranges (in 98% of the cases). Additionally energy turrets are the weapon system with the highest optimal but the lowest falloff. This means that apart from damage values, we are heavily affected by the type of ammo we use. Others simply use the most damaging ammo because they don't gain much from using other (longrange) types. Exceptions here are special extreme range fittings of course, but how often do you see those actually deployed? Also consider that since energy weapons have the highest absolute base value in cap usage, the percentage modification to cap penalty from the ammo affects us the most. Discuss. Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up*
Dodona Gallente Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.01.24 15:51:00 - [1754] Originally by: Cpt Branko No, that way you: (a) Effectively delete the Hyena, and render the Huggin/Rapier quite unneccesary. (b) Make Amarr ships essentially untackle-able unless using the long-range interceptor (all depends on range really). (c) Would give Amarr instant gratification instead of making them train the skills required if they want longer-range webs. Are there existing mechanics to extend webrange? Yes, of course. Should it be trivial? No, since webs are incredibly powerful. (d) Make it essentially impossible for any shorter-range boats to get to you. I don't know. Out of the last three ships I killed, two were polycarbon-rigged, and no Huggins/Rapiers or Hyenas were involved in the killing. It's not that hard. Since the web would be working in falloff, I assume that most MWD-equipped boats would still be able to muscle their way into their webbing range -- the falloff ratio can be as strong or as weak as it needs to be. However, It's good to hear that keeping distance isn't such a big deal in groups; I usually fly alone, and in my experiences I've always been stuck too close or too far away. In fact, I'd be better off if webs were removed completely. I don't have enough midslots to mount one anyway I'm happy with Amarr being fleet ships. If their role in that capacity could be expanded, would people be satisfied?
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:25:00 - [1755] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/01/2008 17:28:11 Originally by: Dodona Since the web would be working in falloff, I assume that most MWD-equipped boats would still be able to muscle their way into their webbing range -- the falloff ratio can be as strong or as weak as it needs to be. Falloff on all EWAR modules (or guns, and, in fact, all modules I know of) does NOT reduce effects. It means 'hit or not hit', basically. Originally by: Dodona However, It's good to hear that keeping distance isn't such a big deal in groups; I usually fly alone, and in my experiences I've always been stuck too close or too far away. Well, any good group will consist of both tacklers, heavy hitters, etc. In a group fight, the ability to hit outside of webrange is invaluable; you can stick out of range of things which could bbq you and hit their damage dealers/tacklers/support. I find it interesting that in any gang fight, I typically top the damage charts with a Hurricane doing 400 'paper' DPS; not the Brutix which does 600 paper DPS. Furthermore, if there are blaster battleships around, I can stick at 15km range while a Brutix will have to go point blank, where his life expectancy isn't very good. Reason? A blaster-boat must get to 1km do unleash his full damage. I start doing it at a significantly longer range, hence doing more damage over the course of the fight. There are significant advantages range provides. For example; a Brutix/Myrmidon is essentially dead if he gets attacked by a Vagabond, as would a active-tanked Drake. A Hurricane or Harbringer (and their tier 1 variants) can deliver quality hits at its engagement range and force it to warpoff or die (in the hands of a smart pilot, at least). Making the webrange too big, and I feel it risks turning the battleship group into absolutely best group possible - there is little need to risk tacklers in a engagement except to get the initial tackle, and all you can really use is some EWAR support. It's not like extending webrange is impossible using existing mechanics. Originally by: Dodona In fact, I'd be better off if webs were removed completely. I don't have enough midslots to mount one anyway Removal of webs would make removal or heavy modifications to MWDs and speed mods necessary. Since they are, after all, counters to each other. It is a lie that you cannot fit webs on your ships, though, since every three+ midslot ship can, in fact, fit a web. Originally by: Dodona I'm happy with Amarr being fleet ships. If their role in that capacity could be expanded, would people be satisfied? I've never fought in fleets. I hear, however, that long range sniping is all the rage in fleet combat; but I can speak about small groups, where medium range (which is 15-30km and very reachable with pulses) is quite important. As for complaints about long-range weapons (beams/arties/rails), I never personally used them. Originally by: Iyumi 1. Ask anyone for advice on what rigs to fit on an Amarr ship of any kind - 90% bet you will be responded with 3 x CCC. Why is this anyone know? Surely the cap race wouldn't need any more cap regen would they? why not fit dmg rigs or range rigs why CCC? CCP surely has noticed this trend of every Amarr ship utiliting CCC rigs in all 3 rig slots? You are talking about PvE in your post (sniping mission rats and all that rubbish). I would like to point out a few things: (a) For all ships in game, 3x CCC is what you mostly fit in rigslots for PvE. (b) Ship balance discussions bringing in PvE in them are silly, otherwise we could say that torps and caldari have been nerfed, that blasters utterly suck, and autocannons are quite bad. All of which could not be further from the truth. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Dodona Gallente Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.01.24 18:06:00 - [1756] Edited by: Dodona on 24/01/2008 18:07:10 Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/01/2008 17:28:11 Falloff on all EWAR modules (or guns, and, in fact, all modules I know of) does NOT reduce effects. It means 'hit or not hit', basically. What? Falloff affects how much damage guns hit for, I'm almost certain. I can hit targets consistently within my falloff, but I don't do nearly as much damage. Why would damps bother to have a falloff range if it didn't have an effect? Maybe I've been noticing the wrong things? Originally by: Cpt Branko Removal of webs would make removal or heavy modifications to MWDs and speed mods necessary. Since they are, after all, counters to each other. It is a lie that you cannot fit webs on your ships, though, since every three+ midslot ship can, in fact, fit a web. Taking out webs is a pipe dream, I'll be the first to admit. Amarr is uniquely afflicted with ships that have only one midslot, however.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.24 18:45:00 - [1757] Originally by: Dodona Why would damps bother to have a falloff range if it didn't have an effect? Damps, NOS and webs have a falloff listed in their specs, but it makes no difference to their efficiency. Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Kil2 Club Bear	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:00:00 - [1758] cant believe im participating in this but i cant resist. i cant speak for pve because i dont do it but for pvp i find amarr to be just fine. and i especially find lasers to be fine. i cant speak for khanid ships becuase i dont fly them but lasers are great. you all talk about mid range combat not existing but i think maybe you dont see how much strength comes from the mid range options amarr have now. first of all you can drop propulsion mods which bring the slot layouts of amarr ships right inline with gallente and matar. if the bad guy isnt close its not a big deal because you can hit him already. also having mid range dps power(roughly 20k with faction ammo coming out of a geddon) you can sit still in a fight and when primary changes you are doing max dps immediately without moving. i outdamage our megathrons fight after fight and its not because of raw dps its because theres no time to adjust position, no issues getting tracking sorted. immediate damage change. also this means if you are perceptive enough to web opposition ships that will want to be close to you later, they can never get there. and you end up doing massively more dps than they will get to for the rest of the fight. also i feel cap superior in most places using amarr bs to other races. im able to use a rep + neut without rigs and still withstand some nos/neut harassment. would be cool to have a more useful tier2 bs but every race has ships that dont shine so i cant complain. My vids - GENESIS I GENESIS II
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:53:00 - [1759] Edited by: Blutreiter on 24/01/2008 19:56:46 Originally by: Kil2 ... also i feel cap superior in most places using amarr bs to other races. im able to use a rep + neut without rigs and still withstand some nos/neut harassment. ... This is fine, but can you do that WHILE firing lasers? That's the whole point. Amarr ships have about the same Capacitor capabilities as other races. But we're talking about lasers being the problem. Minmatar for example could fire all turrets without thinking twice here. See the difference? We're unable to field anything with offensive power if we want to do the same stuff others can do. Thats why it's called tank OR gank and it's double true for amarr. Also the widespread belief that amarr are made for passive armortanking is in fact completely made up by the playerbase... due to the fact that amarr cannot afford wasting cap in serious fights for an active tank. Passive is nice and performs situationally well but it's not "amarr style" tanking. It's due to lack of different options. Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up*
Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:00:00 - [1760] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Meridius Dex Goumindong, you seem avowed to keeping Amarr permanently gimped versus other races. That's fine if you have eleventy-billion skill points, as I'm sure you do. But just because you can fly them half-decently with maxed out skills doesn't mean they aren't seriously gimped all the same for the rest of us. Ill get to the rest of the post later. But i just wanted to quote this because its utterly hilarious. Glad you're entertained. I have not been by your replies, of course, as you have still not provided one intelligent, informed reply to any of my stated arguments. So far all you've provided is snide retorts with no substance. Besides, keep quoting me all you like - at least it keeps this thread bumped. -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting

Kil2 Club Bear	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:18:00 - [1761] Edited by: Kil2 on 24/01/2008 20:20:33 Quote: This is fine, but can you do that WHILE firing lasers? That's the whole point. yes. .and also im not passive tanked. and the price minmatar pay for the cap stability and utility is completely garbage dps. the phoon got a nice boost recently but takes a billion sp and the other 2 bs both make big sacrifices if you want them to come close to the geddon or abaddons self sufficiency and dps. . My vids - GENESIS I ARMAGEDDON
Tenox Teros Club Bear	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:23:00 - [1762] Originally by: Blutreiter Edited by: Blutreiter on 24/01/2008 19:56:46 This is fine, but can you do that WHILE firing lasers? That's the whole point. Of course he means while firing lasers. I have first hand knowledge that in a straight up fight, armageddon or abbadon vs megathron or hype, Amarr will come out on top every time (naturally meant if fitted with the same isk worth and quality of stuff). Phoon does great dps, if you have twice the SP as any other ship type requires. Tempest is a joke for dps, but can move. Maelstrom is overpowered Generally if you start 20km from a geddon or abbadon, you mwd our of scram range and warp or you get owned. It really is that simple. What bugs me of the OP, is that he spent 8+ hours researching and writing about how amarr sucks, when he could have found out how to fly his own race You want "proof" watch any one of Kil2's movies.
Amira Shadowsong Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:39:00 - [1763] Originally by: Kil2 Edited by: Kil2 on 24/01/2008 20:20:33 Quote: This is fine, but can you do that WHILE firing lasers? That's the whole point. yes. .and also im not passive tanked. and the price minmatar pay for the cap stability and utility is completely garbage dps. the phoon got a nice boost recently but takes a billion sp and the other 2 bs both make big sacrifices if you want them to come close to the geddon or abaddons self sufficiency and dps. . Dont get me wrong, I like your movies...but can you state how many SP you have Kil2? You need good skills to pull off stuff youre talking about here. What do amarr players do while skilling up? They are sucking in their crappy cruisers and frigs. Just because it is possible to kill people in some of the amarr ships doesnt mean they are equal to the other races ships. Just because I saw a movie where a retribution kills a brutix (yes ive seen this vid) doesnt mean a retribution is more powerful then a brutix and that AFs dont suck. Is this making any sense?
Kil2 Club Bear	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:45:00 - [1764] Edited by: Kil2 on 24/01/2008 20:47:19 i see what you are saying. i have 22mil sp. got this amarr character when it had 19. so i cant say about the cruisers. but from what ive seen the harb is cap invincible and as soon as you can pick up t2 medium pulse its a powerhouse. i havnt had a lot of luck with the t1 cruisers except to use the maller as bait and to use the omen as a nano ship =p but would hope with 10mil sp spent correctly you could make a real solid geddon pilot though? and i really wanted to focus on amarr's 'potential' since that seems to be what the op was talking about. it certainly doesnt take as diverse of a sp allocation to be as effective with t1 amarr ships as it does with minmatar for instance. My vids - GENESIS I ARMAGEDDON
Amira Shadowsong Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:52:00 - [1765] Originally by: Kil2 Edited by: Kil2 on 24/01/2008 20:47:19 i see what you are saying. i have 22mil sp. got this amarr character when it had 19. so i cant say about the cruisers. but from what ive seen the harb is cap invincible and as soon as you can pick up t2 medium pulse its a powerhouse. i havnt had a lot of luck with the t1 cruisers except to use the maller as bait and to use the omen as a nano ship =p but would hope with 10mil sp spent correctly you could make a real solid geddon pilot though? and i really wanted to focus on amarr's 'potential' since that seems to be what the op was talking about. it certainly doesnt take as diverse of a sp allocation to be as effective with t1 amarr ships as it does with minmatar for instance. Well things arent black or white imo, they are grey. Some like to think its dark grey or black and some light grey or white. Still, there is a reason why amarr ships are the least flown and its not only because its a high sp race because minmatar is just as sp requiring as amarr. Atleast according to ccp's own statistics of spaceships in eve space.
Lelulie Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.01.24 21:03:00 - [1766] At the end of the day you're playing EFT not EVE. Amarr can do their 2nd best dps from T2 scramble range, Gallente can't. You also fail to mention the slot sacrifices needed to fit things like the Neutron 3 Mag Stab Domi that needs fitting help too. You also fail to use rigs on the tanks which make Amarr awesome aswell. If you want a clue try downloading the ARMAGEDDON video, there's Amarr with a clue that know how to pvp, try it and stop whining. ------------------------------------
Amira Shadowsong Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.24 21:11:00 - [1767] Originally by: Lelulie At the end of the day you're playing EFT not EVE. Amarr can do their 2nd best dps from T2 scramble range, Gallente can't. You also fail to mention the slot sacrifices needed to fit things like the Neutron 3 Mag Stab Domi that needs fitting help too. You also fail to use rigs on the tanks which make Amarr awesome aswell. If you want a clue try downloading the ARMAGEDDON video, there's Amarr with a clue that know how to pvp, try it and stop whining. This doesnt change that: Omen sucks and that amarr ships being the lowest amount of ships in space is not EFT but its actual statistics of the eve universe. So would you be so kind in explaining why we have redicilous amounts of caldari and gallente ships but so few minmatar and amarr? Oh is it because amarr is that secretly godly race that no one but a few know about? SP-pwning people doesnt prove anything about ship balance. If you think that youre the one stuck in movie reality and not eve reality.
Kil2 Club Bear	Posted - 2008.01.24 21:11:00 - [1768] Edited by: Kil2 on 24/01/2008 21:14:49 Quote: At the end of the day you're playing EFT not EVE. this is the key. well said. i think theres a lot of factors that play into race selection other than the effectiveness of their cruisers. for instance starting attributes. i know when i started i specifically didnt create amarr becuase they sounded lame. it soudned cooler to play the crazy democracy lovers or the slave race. also i think people like the flexibility other races offer. which doesnt mean every race need to be flexible My vids - GENESIS I ARMAGEDDON
Everyone Dies Caldari Lucky Tampon	Posted - 2008.01.24 21:37:00 - [1769] Edited by: Everyone Dies on 24/01/2008 21:41:25 Edited by: Everyone Dies on 24/01/2008 21:38:42 Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Originally by: Kil2 Edited by: Kil2 on 24/01/2008 20:47:19 i see what you are saying. i have 22mil sp. got this amarr character when it had 19. so i cant say about the cruisers. but from what ive seen the harb is cap invincible and as soon as you can pick up t2 medium pulse its a powerhouse. i havnt had a lot of luck with the t1 cruisers except to use the maller as bait and to use the omen as a nano ship =p but would hope with 10mil sp spent correctly you could make a real solid geddon pilot though? and i really wanted to focus on amarr's 'potential' since that seems to be what the op was talking about. it certainly doesnt take as diverse of a sp allocation to be as effective with t1 amarr ships as it does with minmatar for instance. Well things arent black or white imo, they are grey. Some like to think its dark grey or black and some light grey or white. Still, there is a reason why amarr ships are the least flown and its not only because its a high sp race because minmatar is just as sp requiring as amarr. Atleast according to ccp's own statistics of spaceships in eve space. Those statistics mean crap regarding race choice. A new player isn't worried about how to accumulate so much SP in a specific skillset to make a ship effective. What newbie out there starts this game knowing the intimate details of laser/cap ratio compared to hybrids? Amarr are so few because the description when making a new character makes them sound like a ghey race. Everyone wants to "look" cool when starting out, not because "oh noes lasers use a lot of cap".
Role Play Club Bear	Posted - 2008.01.24 21:44:00 - [1770] Edited by: Role Play on 24/01/2008 21:45:12 i wish i could fly Amarr... if i could go back in time, i woulda made Role Amarr and not Gal. Also - Referencing back to the first post... I don't know how you can do all of that research and screw up that big. Your "EM FILTER" that you use to nerf effectiveness of Amarr ships is so bogus i laughed when i saw it... Now, im going to ASSUME that the people that play eve actually put fittings on their ships. I can't guarantee this is an accurate assumption but i think I'm pretty close. Stock resistances as you claim on average are 60/40/40/40.... To keep this short ill focus on armour because thats where u actually get stock 60% res's across the board. Gal 60/35/35/10 Ama 60/35/25/20 Cal 60/45/25/10 Mim 60/35/25/20 Now.... assuming i am putting fitting on my ship, it is safe to conclude i am going to put armour resistance modules. The Stock tank includes 3 hardeners, dc, and reps. Maybe an EANM if theres room for one, depending on the slots you may just put an Exp. hardener and eanm. Either way, (I'll let you play in EFT) The Majourity of fitted tanks DO NOT fit an EM hardener. With the exception of EANM's. ON AVERAGE!! and quote me correctly here there are exceptions. EM IS NOT, the highest armour resist on a tank. 60/40/40/40 is a HORRIBLE filter... becuase in reality it doesnt even come close to that on fitted ships. But of course i could be wrong and everyone fly's with empty low slots. - - - - - -

Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.24 22:03:00 - [1771] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong .but can you state how many SP you have Kil2? You need good skills to pull off stuff youre talking about here. ... Just because it is possible to kill people in some of the amarr ships doesnt mean they are equal to the other races ships. Just because I saw a movie where a retribution kills a brutix (yes ive seen this vid) doesnt mean a retribution is more powerful then a brutix and that AFs dont suck. Is this making any sense? No it isn't. Read part #1 and part #2. It says, basically: "While Amarr ships can beat equally skilled pilots in other races ships, they are inferior to other races ships because I saw that people can beat noob pilots". This doesn't make sense. I think you are asking for Amarr to require less SP to win; after all, all races need to train a lot of SP in their respective cathegories to do well in PvP, some more, some less; some ships specifically need more SP to shine then others. Take the Typhoon; it's probably one of the best BS at 25M SP, and is completely horrendous at 10M. Nobody in their right mind will say that ship sucks. If you have problems with running your guns, well, cap skills to V are something you should get at battlecruiser already if you want to PvP effectively. Reason? Heat, of course. Respective ship skill IV is something you need to be competitive at a decent level with anything, and controlled bursts IV (easy to get to V) you should have in any ship which uses cap-consuming guns anyway. I don't understand the 'needs more SP' comments. The Rupture needs more SP then the Thorax does to be effective, it doesn't make it a bad ship, it's probably better then the Thorax after you skill it up. Same for the Hurricane versus Brutix/Myrmidon, etc. All of these ships suck horribly w/out T2 guns; which do take quite a bit. Nobody in their right mind will say they are sucky ships. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.24 22:05:00 - [1772] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong So would you be so kind in explaining why we have redicilous amounts of caldari and gallente ships but so few minmatar and amarr? Because, obviously, Caldari owns Minmatar and Amarr in PvP Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Uchuu Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.01.24 22:19:00 - [1773] Woo, page 60!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.24 22:23:00 - [1774] Originally by: Meridius Dex Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Meridius Dex Goumindong, you seem avowed to keeping Amarr permanently gimped versus other races. That's fine if you have eleventy-billion skill points, as I'm sure you do. But just because you can fly them half-decently with maxed out skills doesn't mean they aren't seriously gimped all the same for the rest of us. Ill get to the rest of the post later. But i just wanted to quote this because its utterly hilarious. Glad you're entertained. I have not been by your replies, of course, as you have still not provided one intelligent, informed reply to any of my stated arguments. So far all you've provided is snide retorts with no substance. Besides, keep quoting me all you like - at least it keeps this thread bumped. You have not provided an argument as to why you are correct. I have provided an argument as to why I am correct.[Specificially you stated originally that you were right, and i stated you were wrong, because adding bonuses will not fix most of the ships that need fixing, and many ships do not need bonuses. You then went on to say that EM resistance change was the answer without actually saying why] You also clearly havent been keeping up with the discussion that has been going on outside of this thread.
Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.24 23:02:00 - [1775] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Meridius Dex Glad you're entertained. I have not been by your replies, of course, as you have still not provided one intelligent, informed reply to any of my stated arguments. So far all you've provided is snide retorts with no substance. Besides, keep quoting me all you like - at least it keeps this thread bumped. You have not provided an argument as to why you are correct. I have provided an argument as to why I am correct.[Specificially you stated originally that you were right, and i stated you were wrong, because adding bonuses will not fix most of the ships that need fixing, and many ships do not need bonuses. You then went on to say that EM resistance change was the answer without actually saying why] You also clearly havent been keeping up with the discussion that has been going on outside of this thread. Yep, as I suspected. No legitimate counter-arguments to any of my 3 main points. Just more dismissive arrogance, with nothing to back it up. Thought you were going to take me apart? And the primary discussion is in this thread - and I've read every post. -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.24 23:27:00 - [1776] Originally by: Meridius Dex Yep, as I suspected. No legitimate counter-arguments to any of my 3 main points. Just more dismissive arrogance, with nothing to back it up. Thought you were going to take me apart? And the primary discussion is in this thread - and I've read every post. The primary disucussion started over a year and a half ago. This thread did not. There are many other threads discussing the issue in various other places. This thread is an abortion[refering specificially to the OP] created because the mods didnt want to deal with multiple threads poping up in general discussion Also, its impossible to prove a negative. For instance, i say it doesnt work and point out specific points where it doesnt work. But it is impossible to prove it does not because i cannot run down all the instances and then rule out each one. But you can provide instance it does work, disproving me. Which you have not done. The Amarr problem is not so simple that changing the resistance profile and adding a bonus to the ships will fix the ships where there is a problem. The frigates/cruisers/zealot will still suck, the absolution and harbinger will still occupy no clear role while not being explicitly better than the other options, the battleships will still be good with pulses except now better and possibly overpowered, you still wont be able to fit the snipers[except the Zealot, which will suck, or be overpowered depending on the bonus given], and you will still have no strong tanking option due to the mechanics of range and damage. Show me why it works and ill believe you. But ive run down that path before, and it doesnt fix it.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.24 23:34:00 - [1777] Originally by: Tenox Teros I have first hand knowledge that in a straight up fight, armageddon or abbadon vs megathron or hype, Amarr will come out on top every time (edit: This is with similar sp and fits and not specialized to fight each other). Phoon does great dps, if you have twice the SP as any other ship type requires. Tempest is a joke for dps, but can move. Maelstrom is overpowered Is this a joke? The tempest does fine DPS[just check out the time to kill vs plated setups for a 1 gyro passive tempest in this thread]. And the Geddon or Abaddon will never kill a thron or hype alone in non-specialized fits. Originally by: Cpt Branko No it isn't. Read part #1 and part #2. It says, basically: "While Amarr ships can beat equally skilled pilots in other races ships, they are inferior to other races ships because I saw that people can beat noob pilots". This doesn't make sense. Except that he said "While amarr ships can beat other races ships, this does not say anything about the ships since it leaves the variable of the pilots and fittings" Specificially he is calling into question the differences in quality between what kil2 is flying and his opponents are flying. Since we dont know what his opponents are flying, its tough to determine real differences. I mean, not that they should, but they dont. That all being said, we know there isnt much problem with Amarr battleships in the Geddon and the Abaddon except as snipers. They have the longest range of battleships and rightfully do the least DPS up close[against most tanks]
Kil2 Club Bear	Posted - 2008.01.24 23:52:00 - [1778] Quote: have first hand knowledge that in a straight up fight, armageddon or abbadon vs megathron or hype, Amarr will come out on top every time (edit: This is with similar sp and fits and not specialized to fight each other). Phoon does great dps, if you have twice the SP as any other ship type requires. Tempest is a joke for dps, but can move. you went from calling this out for being too absolute and false(and it is) to... Quote: And the Geddon or Abaddon will never kill a thron or hype alone in non-specialized fits. which is just as absolute and wrong. the problem this kind of discussion is that you can pair ships up in eft and do maths or whatever but when it comes down to it every actual fight is going to have too many variables to make an absolute conclusion. sometimes the mega will win. sometimes the geddon will win. so the discussion has to be- does the geddon have an outstanding disadvantage (that it isnt "supposed" to) that prevents it from winning more often than it should. that i believe is the case that the whiners need to prove. "yes these ships are prevented from doing their job, and, here is how we can begin to fix that". everything i read is far to absolute in here. pvp is very touch and go in actuality. at least in my limited experience (disclaimer: i have not tried to use amarr, or any race for that matter, in fleet pvp so everything i say can be assumed to relate to short range small gang/solo pvp) . My vids - GENESIS I ARMAGEDDON
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.25 00:16:00 - [1779] Edited by: Goumindong on 25/01/2008 00:19:39 Originally by: Kil2 which is just as absolute and wrong. the problem this kind of discussion is that you can pair ships up in eft and do maths or whatever but when it comes down to it every actual fight is going to have too many variables to make an absolute conclusion. sometimes the mega will win. sometimes the geddon will win. so the discussion has to be- does the geddon have an outstanding disadvantage (that it isnt "supposed" to) that prevents it from winning more often than it should. No, its right. No equally skilled Megathron or Hyperion will lose to an equally kitted Abaddon or Geddon assuming none is specificially fit for the other and they arent fit like idiots. The Abaddon and Geddon simply do not do enough dps to overcome the damage type advantage, and the tanking they excell at is advantagious in gang fights and not solo fights. In the most advantagious fits[Passive plated Abaddon vs Passive Plated Megathron] to the Amarr, the Megathron will win so long as it closes against the Abaddon in about 30 seconds. In the least advantagious fits, the Hyperion will tank the entirety of the damage the Amarr does until the end of the fight.
Tenox Teros Club Bear	Posted - 2008.01.25 03:28:00 - [1780] Quote: No, its right. No! I'm right! lol. JK. There are a lot of variables. (I only compare galente to amarr b/c I fly galente and have severe amarr envy at times) on a heavy pulse laser: scorch hits at well over 30km in a(45km optimal with max skills), conflag hits at over 15km with the same weapon. on a large neutron 2: null hits at about the same range as conflag, but does about 15% more damage as scourch. void hits consistently at around 6-8km and does about the same difference in damage with conflag. Comparing mega vs abbadon: similar gun dps, same low slot layout, abbadon does 100dps less due to drones(max diff assuming gallent drone 2's), but with max amarr bs abbadon gets stock resists of 70/51/44/40, mega gets 60/35/35/10. I'm not going to play EFT anymore. It's pretty boring tbh. The fact of the matter is that each race flies different. Taking advantage or your races strengths and limiting it's weaknesses is how you play eve. That's the point. If for some reason CCP boosts amarr in damage by making them be just as damaging as galente, they will have way more range and better tank as well. Hell boost anything and they run a serious risk of making Amarr far too much of a power house. Amarr is perfectly balanced IMHO. Whine all you want, but if ccp boosts Amarr, it will be a sad day for EVE indeed.

Spurty Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.25 04:42:00 - [1781] nice post OP. Some really odd replies to your facts. Clearly some people are suffering from delusions :-) Give Amarrian guns perfect tracking to make em anti-nano ships and bang, Amar would be worth training. Until then, doesn't matter even if they did 200% more damage a hit, they are pretty useless as a race period :( Some of my best friends are Amar but they fly Gallente / Minnie ships. -- Two cannibals eating a clown. One says to the other "Does this taste funny to you?"
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.25 05:07:00 - [1782] Amarr are supposed to be superb armor tankers. The simplest way to give Amarr a clear role is to replace all "laser cap usage" bonuses with "armor resist" bonuses. To compensate for bigger cap usage due to lack of cap saving bonus, decrease cap recharge time of ships by half the laser cap usage.
Tenox Teros Club Bear	Posted - 2008.01.25 06:33:00 - [1783] Originally by: Spurty nice post OP. Some really odd replies to your facts. Clearly some people are suffering from delusions :-) Give Amarrian guns perfect tracking to make em anti-nano ships and bang, Amar would be worth training. Until then, doesn't matter even if they did 200% more damage a hit, they are pretty useless as a race period :( Some of my best friends are Amar but they fly Gallente / Minnie ships. ROFL!!!!! OMG! You said it so seriously too! just priceless
Esmerelle	Posted - 2008.01.25 09:59:00 - [1784] Thx god another group of trolls arived. And I was afraid that this thread is to silent few days ago
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.01.25 11:05:00 - [1785] I don't really see where EM damage is really bad, except for the rediculous high amounts on a t2 minmatar ship... which happens to be fine with me. People here agree that if you use a high resist setup with hardeners, EM is generally the lowest resist on armor. Also a non-issue is the use of Armageddons or Abaddons or Absolutions... Yes they are good ships. The discussion should be focused on BAD designs, not GOOD designs. Yes Amarr are doing reasonably fine with maximum skills in a Geddon. But what about the rest of the ships? We're not asking to make Amarr the uber-race to use and fly, although some suggestions here are simply ridiculous. The problem is still the extremely difficult time you have as a new amarr player... which usually goes unnoticed. What newbie can reliably tell you the difference of flying different races with low skills? The experience simply ain't there. And as time goes by, those players will have adapted to the current situation of Amarr ships and shortcomings and play their biggest strengths in the best performing ships. It's to be expected. What we want and need is proper finetuning to make the rest of the ships useable, some of which are amazingly underwhelming, even with maxed out skills. I needed to get this rant off before there is any further derailing from guys claiming "Amarr is fine! I fly an Armageddon!" (yes it's one of the few good ships...) or whatever. Please stay on topic. Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up*
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E Mercenary Services	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:30:00 - [1786] check my qoute ^^ its on the latest dev blog about the clone update Quote: CCP Chronotis Amarr boost is coming in a future dev blog, lets keep this on topic
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:36:00 - [1787] Originally by: Garia666 check my qoute ^^ its on the latest dev blog about the clone update Somebody promote this man! Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up* Originally by: CCP Explorer I know we have said this before, but this time we really mean itÖ
Tara Mahl	Posted - 2008.01.25 20:04:00 - [1788] Edited by: Tara Mahl on 25/01/2008 20:05:43 Flying Amarr is like Masturbating, it seems fun in the beginning but in the end your only screwing yourself
Iyumi	Posted - 2008.01.26 01:23:00 - [1789] in addition to my previous post of points I made lacking with amarr: 4. People who fantasize about how overpowered laser turret reload times need to wake up and smell the coffee. Only Amarr players know the agony of right clicking on each and every one of their 8 turrets one by one to switch to one of the 8 crystals types that randomly move around in the selection list depending on what you have loaded previously. If you think 2 second reload time is actually the amount of time it takes to switch ammo in 8 laser turrets then maybe you should utilise this 'highly overpowered' turret system on your ships to give you the cutting edge that you oh so praise. Seriously, if there was an option to automatically change all my 8 turret ammo in a single click or two clicks i would be happy. But as it is the interface department is still lacking so I'm reduced to bringing up my notepad to look at what crystal gives me what optimal range and make an attempt to swap crystals tediously every so often while my lasers stay shut for 10-15 seconds minimum.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.26 13:59:00 - [1790] A Light of hope? So what CCP could do? 1)Real amarr boost - something like reducing laser cap and replacing cap usage bonus. dont thik this happens... 2)Minior ship fixes most likely they just give hungry dogs (metaphore) a bone and called it "dinner". Still better than nothing, as long as Devs will understand that it isnt promised boost. 3)Replacing a problem with different one. Any news?

General StarScream Borg Collective hive mind	Posted - 2008.01.26 14:24:00 - [1791] lol dude get real gallente uses allmost as mutch cap, for lower range and same dps. Please resize signature to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.01.26 14:49:00 - [1792] Originally by: General StarScream lol dude get real gallente uses allmost as mutch cap, for lower range and same dps. With considerably higher tracking to offset the range disadvantage... also they still use less cap than lasers with 50% less cap bonus. Instead they have a 25% damage bonus. Your point? Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up* Originally by: CCP Explorer I know we have said this before, but this time we really mean itÖ
Archa Caldari Chickens with an Attitude	Posted - 2008.01.26 17:38:00 - [1793] I always thought that amarr was supposed to do the most damage as they used the most cap. I believe that in the beginning of eve amarr actually did the most damage. It simply got nerfed because of all the gankagedoons. By now this is not the case any more and they still have the biggest cap usage.
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.26 18:23:00 - [1794] Originally by: Blutreiter replies starscream post It's a starscream post, why did you even bother to reply --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.26 19:54:00 - [1795] in other news goons are numerous Trashed sig, Shark was here
Felysta Sandorn Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.27 09:10:00 - [1796] Being the longest active thread in the forums at the moment means that there must be some problem with Amarr, if only the devs would accept that and talk about the fix... Ambulation thread? Less than 30 pages... Cloaking nerf? Less than 30 pages... Speed/Nanos? Less than 20 pages... Amarr thread? Over 60 pages... The proof is in the pudding! Latest Video, Click Here!
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.01.27 09:12:00 - [1797] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 27/01/2008 09:15:14 Originally by: General StarScream lol dude get real gallente uses allmost as mutch cap, for lower range and same dps. Laser Thorax, such as http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=691963 Outclasses Laser Amarr ships Yes - Gallente with Lasers have more cap, more recharge, More armour, more DPS, more drones, more everything. yes - you heard me - Gallente with Lasers outclass Amarr with lasers. WIth Blaster, Gallente use a fraction of cap, more dps better tracking etc etc. Even if your gallente thorax fits lasers to fight my omen, you have still outclassed me. Sig is coming back when my sig file is unlocked, some Pro-Amarr mod unlock it pls Sig locked, lack of Eve content
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.01.27 09:35:00 - [1798] Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 14/01/2008 21:18:25 Originally by: PeacefullNub strange stuff 1. The Drones have to travel to you, not everyone has maxed Drone Skills(so it is mostly like 100-120 DPS) also you have they have to catch you again after pushing the MWD in Orbit. I realy think my timeframe is realistic. Also Drones that die or beeing rescopet lower the effective DPS. I also stated 3 Light Drones + the Assault Luncher, even Lasers when you shoot at the time the Drone tryes to catch up again. 2. this is more like 20 M(you can even use a bare T1 Cap booster makes no diffrence realy), The Rig is to preaty cheap. 3. 3km/s Orbit is nice to have but you won¦t hit with your Turrets at this Speed so you have to slow down the one way or the other If you realy wan¦t to put DPS on your Target. 4. Again you fly Minmatar and think that a Overdirve is better than a Nano when it comes to outmanuver a Target? I give you a hint they are not since you need mostly Agility to prevent a ship from sliping out of Scram Range or getting into Web Range by a fast turn. 5. 5 HAM Carcals are nearly untanked. Also the Omen has a very low Sigradius. I don¦t fear Shildtanks at PVP simply because the Omen will hit the lowest Resist for shure. I never seen a Carcal that can put out mutch hurt in my entire Eve live. 6. Blaster Moas got a very sick Tank most of the times. Since the Optimal Bonus the even tend to hit you form time to time. Don¦t underestemat this Setup untill you meet one in PVP. 7. If you realy think a Minmatar Ship with T1 Guns got better Damage you should get the Omen a second try. I can¦t realy EFT it but the Stabber with T1 guns will do about 50-70 DPS at 15km(ever tryed to kill something bigger than a Frig in under 3 Minutes?). True Story I fly one my own. Rupture has a bit more DPS because of its Drones at this Range but also gets preaty poor without T2 Weapons. I would agress a Stabber, simply because his Tank has 0% EM Resitance and he also does next to no Damage when he uses his MWD. Rupture depends on the Fitting, If it is slower and has T2 Weapons, i can still run if he got T1 Weapons he is mostly screwed(will take some minutes be no big deal). Like I sayed the Omen is not a Solopawnmobile, but I think it is not that bad as everybody claims(especialy when compared to Stabber or Carcal). What is the diffrence between EFT and real PVP -> Not everyone has Level 5 Skills, is perfect Fitted to conter you and will make some smaller or larger Mistakes that also tend to tell what player gets the Killmail and what player gets his Insurance Payed out. i have been waiting 2 weeks to say that your omen setup is compleatly underpowerforming. Even a LASER THORAX would kick the crap out of your nano-omen in every single way. Read my Laer THorax vs Laser omen post for more details. Sig locked, lack of Eve content
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.27 09:41:00 - [1799] Originally by: General StarScream lol dude get real gallente uses allmost as mutch cap, for lower range and same dps. (without ship bonuses): Megapulse II used 5.3 cap/s (x2.2) 48 dps (90%) Neutron II used 2.4 cap/s (x1) 55 dps (100%) Quote: It's a starscream post, why did you even bother to reply We realy need that troll here, you know.
Felysta Sandorn Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:42:00 - [1800] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: General StarScream lol dude get real gallente uses allmost as mutch cap, for lower range and same dps. (without ship bonuses): Megapulse II used 5.3 cap/s (x2.2) 48 dps (90%) Neutron II used 2.4 cap/s (x1) 55 dps (100%) Let's paint the full picture, shall we? Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II - 4.3cap/s (81% cap use) - 42 DPS (88% DPS) Mega Pulse Laser II - 5.3cap/s (100% cap use) - 48 DPS (100% DPS) Electron Blaster Cannon II - 1.9cap/s (36% cap use) - 48 DPS (100% DPS) Ion Blaster Cannon II - 2.2cap/s (42% cap use) - 52 DPS (108% DPS) Neutron Blaster Cannon II - 2.4cap/s (46% cap use) - 55 DPS (115% DPS) Technically, the DHP is balanced with the Mega Pulse, using near 20% cap less, but getting slightly over 10% more DPS. However, the mega pulse does the same damage as the electron, but the electron uses just over a third of the cap! And don't say the trade-off is the range, because Amarr also have the worst tracking for close range weaponry... The trade-off for the range is the tracking! So then we pay 3x the amount of cap for the same DPS, a slightly longer range (we've already discussed how the mid-range battles in EVE don't exist), and worse tracking? How is that fair? We also have the worst damage type in game and some of the highest fittings (the Mega Pulse uses 4.5 more CPU and 1293.3 PG than the Electron, which it does the same DPS as... Hell, it uses near 350 more PG than the Neutron Blaster Cannon, and you only save 6 CPU!)... Great job with the balancing in that department... Oh, and talking of balance, that little things called tracking? Let's compare the Mega Pulse and the Electron, as they do the same DPS... Mega Pulse Tracking: 0.04219 Electron Tracking: 0.0625 Translated, that means the electrons have 48% more tracking than the mega pulse... THAT'S NEARLY 50% MORE TRACKING, and on for example the Megathron that gets a tracking bonus and a damage bonus compared to the apoc which gets a cap bonus and a cap bonus... Maybe that cap bonus is useful? Mega Pulse Cap (on the Apoc): 2.6cap/s Electron Cap (on the Mega): 1.9cap/s Let's add some theory in to this, and imagine we can fit infinate guns on a ship... Let's see if the cap bonuses really help the Apoc... Peak Recharge: 27.1 Gun Cap Use: 2.6 Theoretical Total Guns (before cap problems): 10.4231 Let's compare that with the Megathron, shall we? Peak Recharge: 20.3 Gun Cap Use: 1.9 Theoretical Total Guns (before cap problems): 10.6842 So the Megathron still has more cap than the Apoc... Interesting to know! Surely then the tracking must be bad for the guns on the Megathron in comparison, or the damage? Electron DPS (on a Megathron): 61 DPS Electron Tracking (on a Megathron): 0.08594 MegaPulse DPS (on an Apoc): 48 DPS (78.7%) MegaPulse Tracking (on an Apoc): 0.04219 (49.1%) So Mega Pulse Lasers have four fifths of the damage, and less than half of the tracking of Electron Blasters, they use over a quarter more cap to fire, they have insane fitting requirements in comparison (over 1200 PG more and 4 CPU more), but they have a slightly longer range, so that makes up for it, right? Wrong. Amarr as a race, their ships and their weaponry are not competitive in this game and need a massive buff just to bring them in line with other races. Latest Video, Click Here!

The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.27 19:54:00 - [1801] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego stuff I sayed i have been waiting 2 weeks to say that your omen setup is compleatly underpowerforming. Even a LASER THORAX would kick the crap out of your nano-omen in every single way. Read my Laer THorax vs Laser omen post for more details. Damn even seen you logged in for 10 Seconds in Eve. This was the point I feared you will be back on the Forum again. First your Post is well, crap. You compare a Tier 2 with a Tier 3 Cruiser, and Fitting a Coprocessor on a Omen, well some people say may fittings are strange but yours... You preaty mutch failed to get my Idee that I use the only advantages the Omen has over other T1 armed Cruisers to get some use out of it. I also mentioned the Omen is not a solopawnmobile but can be deacend if your pick your targets right and use the little advantages you got to outperform other cruisers by Range and Speed that are not prepared for it. My Setup is based on current PVP mechanics not on EFT and has his place in real PVP in EFT it is subpar in every way no question asked. I also have to admit I actualy have seen a Laser Thorax in PVP, it was Shildtanked to. Well he was into Armor 15 Seconds later and I stoped and convoed him about his fitting it was yust to funny. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.01.27 20:11:00 - [1802] Originally by: The Djego Damn even seen you logged in for 10 Seconds in Eve. This was the point I feared you will be back on the Forum again. OMG, he actually logs into EvE? Probably just skill change, so he can back to EFT-ing ;) Anyway, the Omen setup you posted makes sense, because it uses the advantages of this (rather poor) ship. That said, it does quite match the performance of the, say, Stabber. However, ships are supposed to go to each other's optimal, stop moving or using any fancy tactics, so EFT is always correct ;) Of course, considering you can refit to lasors on your Thorax in flight, of course, Thoraxes always win. Oh, wait, that only works in EFT. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.27 22:56:00 - [1803] About tier 2 omen vs tier 3 thorax: Of course it isnt correct but... How many times ppls in this thread tried to prove their words "amarr is fine" with tier 2 mega vs tier 3 abaddon? Why not mega vs apoc for example? Of course thats fair, as long as it suits your needs The Djego Your omen setup is interesting, but its nothing special in it. You can use same type of fittings for allmost any cruiser - and many of them will have some advantage over omen. Only 1 advantage that i can see here - good optimal of pulse lasers. But any other race could simply use long range weapon and they will have better range or damage versatility and same dps.
Lemptie Gallente Glass House	Posted - 2008.01.28 00:12:00 - [1804] Can`t find a solo pvp apoc video. Why isn`t there any ? Amarr cap race ,always outa cap.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.28 01:30:00 - [1805] Originally by: Lemptie Can`t find a solo pvp apoc video. Why isn`t there any ? Amarr cap race ,always outa cap. There are also no solo omen vids. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Everyone Dies Caldari Lucky Tampon	Posted - 2008.01.28 01:48:00 - [1806] Edited by: Everyone Dies on 28/01/2008 01:49:15 Neutron Blaster Cannon II fitted on a Megathron vs a Mega Pulse II fitted on an Apoc both with best damage faction ammo: Neutron Blaster Cannon II Cap cost: 13.65 PG: 2173.96 Cpu: 45.75 Optimal: 4500m Damage mod: 8.0156 Falloff: 12500 Tracking: 0.07442 Mega Pulse II Cap usage: 15 PG: 2530 CPU 39.75 Optimal: 15km Damage Mod 5.6925 Falloff: 10km Tracking: 0.04219 As you can see either Neutrons are overpowered or Mega Pulse are underpowered. I say nerf blasters a little and lower cap usage and fitting req on lasers. Why even bother using lasers.
Arlenna Molatov Caldari The 59th Parallel	Posted - 2008.01.28 05:11:00 - [1807] I dont know if this idea has been presented before but I'm not giong to read through 62 bloody pages-- Why not introduce a new class of energy turrets that adds a kinetic dmg ability to lasers? New technology and all that jazz. Of course there would be a little increase in the fitting reqs..as adding a kin ability to a laser will surely require either more power or CPU...most likely power. New crystals can be added or old ones changed to allow the effect as well or bonuses to it. I havent flown Amarr ships since they nerfed them years ago. I know for a fact they need help and I dont need a 62 page post to try to convince me. The above idea is ...something..at least to give them a little more FIREPOWER viability on the field. The turret is not directed at cap or tank or anything else but damage.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.28 07:54:00 - [1808] Edited by: PeacefullNub on 28/01/2008 07:54:48 Originally by: Arlenna Molatov I dont know if this idea has been presented before but I'm not giong to read through 62 bloody pages-- Why not introduce a new class of energy turrets that adds a kinetic dmg ability to lasers? New technology and all that jazz. Of course there would be a little increase in the fitting reqs..as adding a kin ability to a laser will surely require either more power or CPU...most likely power. New crystals can be added or old ones changed to allow the effect as well or bonuses to it. Long ago CCP tried to add Blaze (explozive) crystals for amarrs - but players suggested that amarrs will be overpowered. Maybe they were right atm. But today amarrs could use something like that - just to have damage versatility that other races allready have. I dont think amarrs need firepower and dps - we have nice dps for nice range. All we need - ability to use this range and this dps in combat.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:52:00 - [1809] Originally by: PeacefullNub Edited by: PeacefullNub on 28/01/2008 07:54:48 Originally by: Arlenna Molatov I dont know if this idea has been presented before but I'm not giong to read through 62 bloody pages-- Why not introduce a new class of energy turrets that adds a kinetic dmg ability to lasers? New technology and all that jazz. Of course there would be a little increase in the fitting reqs..as adding a kin ability to a laser will surely require either more power or CPU...most likely power. New crystals can be added or old ones changed to allow the effect as well or bonuses to it. Long ago CCP tried to add Blaze (explozive) crystals for amarrs - but players suggested that amarrs will be overpowered. Maybe they were right atm. But today amarrs could use something like that - just to have damage versatility that other races allready have. I dont think amarrs need firepower and dps - we have nice dps for nice range. All we need - ability to use this range and this dps in combat. overpowered just like caldari are underpowered because they shield tank Trashed sig, Shark was here
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.01.28 16:19:00 - [1810] I think the word we're looking for is "sustainable DPS". Furthermore, the Omen doesn't go anywhere near "survival of the fittest". The more appropriate term would be "having a fit trying to fit that bloody can". Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up* Originally by: CCP Explorer I know we have said this before, but this time we really mean itÖ

Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:21:00 - [1811] Originally by: PeacefullNub Edited by: PeacefullNub on 28/01/2008 07:54:48 Originally by: Arlenna Molatov I dont know if this idea has been presented before but I'm not giong to read through 62 bloody pages-- Why not introduce a new class of energy turrets that adds a kinetic dmg ability to lasers? New technology and all that jazz. Of course there would be a little increase in the fitting reqs..as adding a kin ability to a laser will surely require either more power or CPU...most likely power. New crystals can be added or old ones changed to allow the effect as well or bonuses to it. Long ago CCP tried to add Blaze (explozive) crystals for amarrs - but players suggested that amarrs will be overpowered. Maybe they were right atm. But today amarrs could use something like that - just to have damage versatility that other races allready have. I dont think amarrs need firepower and dps - we have nice dps for nice range. All we need - ability to use this range and this dps in combat. CCP busted so many ships through nerfs that they will never find the time to fix them. CCPs balance team works like 1 day a year. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Toxic Waster	Posted - 2008.01.29 10:37:00 - [1812] bumpety bump
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.29 14:15:00 - [1813] Looks like CCP found more impotant problems to fix: jump freiters and asteroids. Dont look at amarrs - we could wait for 3 years, you know
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.29 14:26:00 - [1814] Originally by: PeacefullNub Looks like CCP found more impotant problems to fix: jump freiters and asteroids. Dont look at amarrs - we could wait for 3 years, you know Yeah, they rather fiddle with end game ships that a minority is flying but do nothing about the basic ships like the cruisers for example wich the noob player base needs. Sounds pretty stupid to me. Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2008.01.29 15:48:00 - [1815] wow this still around? We all know amarr are STILL gimped, I really do wonder what they have planned (probably nothing) But I'm not active and altho otherthings bore me about this game (waiting 10 hours for a single fight for one!) THIS is the other issue that makes me stay away from the game, since my 39mil sp is all in amarr
Caine Rebirth	Posted - 2008.01.29 15:52:00 - [1816] just wanted to post in a 62 page thread that ccp probably doesnt give a rats arse about
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.29 18:49:00 - [1817] the only amarr problem is that most people that play amarr train other races and have no clue about amarr ships Trashed sig, Shark was here
MenanceWhite Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.29 19:59:00 - [1818] I've crosstrained to fly a laser thorax now. because laser thoraxes are baddass and because laser turrets looks much fancier than blasters on prem mode. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Praytell	Posted - 2008.01.29 22:51:00 - [1819] Amazing! I just read through it and Im pretty much speechless. Ive flown amarr for quite some time and have thought this for the same amount of time but didnt think it would help to poor out my opinions. LOL a thought just came to mind though. Alot of businesses would say "Customer is always right" But it usually seems like the Devs. dont agree to this statement. Would be nice if we could all go on strike and not play just so we could make a statement but I dont think that would work either. Great research great work. Appreciated. /signed
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2008.01.30 10:56:00 - [1820] CCP.....I presume you gave up reading this from page 2 maybe.....?

Takeshi Yamato	Posted - 2008.01.30 14:51:00 - [1821] The Omen should get a fifth turret, 225 extra pg and 40 or so extra cpu. The 5% ROF bonus though would be a little bit too good and should be changed into a 5% damage bonus in turn. The Maller.. erm I don't know. Cap hungry lasers on a tanking ship just doesn't work. Plus, tanking is worthless if the ship can't dish out good damage or do ewar at the same time. 25 mbit drone bandwith would probably be a good start to help with the low (pathetic) dps. It also needs some more cpu. All those lowslots are cpu hungry. The Prophecy --> redesign into a Khanid missile ship so that Amarr finally have a T1 Khanid ship. The Arbitrator --> replace the two gun hardpoints with missile hardpoints, for a smoother progression in the Khanid ship line. Inquisitor --> give it one more missile hardpoint, change bonuses to +5% rocket damage, +10% rocket and light missile velocity. This should be the first ship representing the Khanid philosophy of ship design, and not be a crappy kestrel. The Apoc also need something. Not sure what though. More drone bandwith wouldn't hurt but the ship would still be rather uninteresting.
Miukie Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.01.30 14:58:00 - [1822] Give us a black Apoc with torpedo bonus
Takeshi Yamato	Posted - 2008.01.30 15:09:00 - [1823] Edited by: Takeshi Yamato on 30/01/2008 15:11:51 In today's EVE, the Apoc's cap bonus is laughable since everyone uses cap boosters in PvP. For PvE it's okay, allthough a laser ship is never going to be great in PvE. 1875 max cap and 7 cap/sec is the benefit of lvl 5 bs skills in an Apoc. Basically the equivalent of 3 cap booster injections, 4 at most if the fight lasts for a long time.
Scott Ryder Infestation. The Cosa Nostra	Posted - 2008.01.30 15:12:00 - [1824] 62 pages and no ccp reply?
Erayo	Posted - 2008.01.30 15:15:00 - [1825] Originally by: Scott Ryder 62 pages and no ccp reply? Even I'd be lazy to read all this
Cpt Advile Caldari Grettistak	Posted - 2008.01.30 15:15:00 - [1826] Here's a solution to all of it. Just make Amarr cheaper as it is less effective. So amarr will have money bonus :D -------------------------------------------- it's easy if ya know how...
Takeshi Yamato	Posted - 2008.01.30 15:22:00 - [1827] Quote: Here's a solution to all of it. Just make Amarr cheaper as it is less effective. So amarr will have money bonus :D If Amarr had 0% chance in some cases to beat another ship of the same class, then that Amarr ship should cost 0 isk as it's infinitely inferior. The entire mineral market would disappear overnight, making the other faction's ships cheaper. It would only make the situation worse
Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.30 22:27:00 - [1828] God, I love the smell of vindication in the morning! The most recent devblog has made it clear that real changes are coming, starting with one of my own assertions: the base resistances on armor for EM damage WILL be changed. The devs decided on taking 60% down to 50% and I am grateful for the wisdom they've exhibited. (What do you have to say now, Goumindong?) The most recent devblog also is in line with several other points I and others made and it's good to hear they are looking at these smart choices and not the various dopey schemes to add different-damaging crystals and whatnot: http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=533 Reducing cap use of lasers and (possibly) rethinking some ship cap bonuses is what so many ohers have been saying for so long. That they will look into fitting issues and other problems is also encouraging. Booya! Let's get back in the fight, Servants of the Emperor! -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Scott Ryder Infestation. The Cosa Nostra	Posted - 2008.01.30 22:43:00 - [1829] CCp will never boost amarr. I wont believe it until I see it.
Lord Bastian	Posted - 2008.01.30 23:15:00 - [1830] Edited by: Lord Bastian on 30/01/2008 23:15:51 Just read the dev blog and i am shocked to see there actually looking into doing something, i am not really sure how the EM resists change will effect things in combat but can only hope they consider the mission running side of things also. Perhaps i dont have the experience to say so or maybe i just dont understand the reasoning behind it but i have encountered many missions nearly impossible to complete due to EW. Thank you for a step in the right direction CCP LB

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.30 23:54:00 - [1831] Originally by: Meridius Dex (What do you have to say now, Goumindong?) Its an unjustified sweeping change that modifies more about the game than the intent of the blog lets on. Its dangerous at best.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.30 23:57:00 - [1832] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Meridius Dex (What do you have to say now, Goumindong?) Its an unjustified sweeping change that modifies more about the game than the intent of the blog lets on. Its dangerous at best. Atleast they are doing something and we are happy! Do you think a starving man cares if hes served human-steak instead of animal-steak? Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.31 00:20:00 - [1833] Originally by: Goumindong Were not starving. And im a fan of getting it right and not causing other problems. Dont like to duct-tape stuff? Amarr pvp Vids: Inq - I Inq - II
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.01.31 00:23:00 - [1834] Quick recap of last 63 pages New Amarr players and also any players with 18+ charisma - REMAKE your char unless you know what you are doing. Also for experienced players, Lasers have..... Worst Range for long range fights Worst tracking for close range Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships Use most cap Worst fitting reqs Sig locked, lack of Eve content
Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.31 00:58:00 - [1835] I know that Goumindong doesn't want to admit he was wrong and I'm sure he's thrilled - atop his mountain of skill points - to have things remain as they are, but the rest of us are grateful for even this initial change in the right direction. I find it intriguing that one possible solution to the omnitank issue might be to eliminate armor comp skills (and refund those SPs to players), further bringing EANMs down to earth. Not sure if CCP has that on the table, but I am thrilled nevertheless by the EM base resist change. It will improve all of EVE greatly. Now just cut laser cap use and look at some (or most) ship bonuses and we'll have all three of my central arguments acted upon. Fixing some fitting issues and looking at a handful of particlarly bad ships in the Amarr line (Omen, Maller, Apoc ..you know the rogue's gallery) and we'll be balanced for some time to come. To summarize the points I've been making throughout this thread: "1.) Base Resistances - Base EM resists on Shield/Armor should go from 0%/60% to something more like 15%/45%. EM is still the weakest resistance on shields and the strongest resistance on armor. The ratio is still there, but in one simple step the Omnitank issue would be addressed. You can keep your EANMs exactly the way they are." The dev blog informs that base EM on armor is being dropped to 50%, with no increase in shield EM resistance. This is even better than what I suggested! I guess CCP feel shield tankers don't need the buff. "2.) Reduce laser cap use - A lot of numbers have been thrown around and certainly CCP should run them all through their version of Big Blue to get as close as possible to what would be balanced and fair. But it looks like 40-50% is what many feel would be close. It would also open up energy weapons to at least be considered by other races, thus adding to the variety and innovation inherent to EVE gameplay." Zulupark indicates of the many ideas floated to fix Amarr, this is one of the primary ones they have identified and with which they agree. "3.) Change ship bonuses - After Point 2 is addressed, lose the cap bonuses and replace them with real ship bonuses. Is there anyone left anywhere in EVE that doesn't agree on this one by now?" Once again, the dev blog indicates that ships will be looked at and some "could need lovin'", but stops short of saying any of the ship bonuses would be changed. My bet is that this would depend largely on how much they reduce laser cap use - a little (no bonus changes) or a lot (50% reduction, new ship bonuses). My bonus assertion: "4.) Nerf MWDs. These modules are the sole reason there IS NO "medium range combat" in EVE. All fights are either at long-range sniper or short-range blaster distances. Scale MWD module attributes according to ship classes and reduce their ubiquity in PvP. MWD has drastically imbalanced EVE." No word in the dev blog, but with the upcoming speed nerf already been discussed, it's possible MWDs might also be reduced in their ubquity in EVE, thus allowing more of Amarr's fabled "mid-range combat". In closing, I feel very good about this dev blog and have re-upped my quarterly subscription. And Johnny, good things are happening. Let's tone it down a bit, OK? -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.31 04:32:00 - [1836] Meridus, do you even bother to read what people write?
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.31 07:31:00 - [1837] Amarr boost yeah? Dont realy know is this "boost" good or bad. They boosted em damage and nerfed tank - its like double edge sword for amarrs. But they nerfed shield expl rez (+minmatar dps vs shields), and armor em rez (+minmatar dps vs armor). If amarrs got only +dps vs armor tank, minmatars got +dps vs all types of tank Correct me if im wrong. P.S. Anyway better than nothing
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.31 07:49:00 - [1838] No, it unquestionably makes Amarr stronger. That isnt the question.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.01.31 08:04:00 - [1839] Originally by: Goumindong No, it unquestionably makes Amarr stronger. That isnt the question. I brought down the Professor of maths to my home and he also ran calculations with me. It appears that having a DPS increase for the first minute or two is pretty irrelevant because 1. laser damage is balance for active hardning and not EANM. This fix is not solving the problem - just transfering it so lasers still are not balanced with EANM. E.G imagine a fat man eating 100 big macs a day. Obviously Big macs are one of the issues. If he drops 10% and eats 90 big macs a day, is that a fix? Or would a fix be to go back to before he was fat and work out what he was doing right then to see where he went wrong? 2. Even if CCP changed Em resist to 0% on armour, it is irrelevent as Laser ships still do around 0 dps after a minute or two (ran out of cap) Sig locked, lack of Eve content
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.31 08:28:00 - [1840] Stop trolling jojo.

Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.01.31 08:53:00 - [1841] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 31/01/2008 08:55:00 Originally by: Goumindong Stop trolling jojo. Trolling? Minmatar Massive Damage boost, making Republic EMP ammo OMG That temptest pilot is rubbing his hands in glee, the vagabond pilot is jumping for joy. This is the dream come true - First they got High Minmatar Alpha, then they got 100% cap reduction so 100% of cap goes to mwd/tank and now high Minmatar DPS. Every broken concept of lasers they ignored. Such as fitting, cap usage etc etc. So their only fix is the make EMP ammo OMGBBQ so Amarr players can get boost to fitting projectiles to their ships. Sig locked, lack of Eve content
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.31 09:28:00 - [1842] Originally by: Jonny JoJo the vagabond pilot is jumping for joy. This is the dream come true LOL Yes, because Vagabonds use EMP all the time. Stop trolling and go back to your cave. This quite definitely buffs Amarr more then anyone else. Yeah, it's better for minmatar if you meet a target who both shield and armour tanks Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Vagel	Posted - 2008.01.31 09:55:00 - [1843] This is a Matar boost - NOT an amar boost! Who else but matar uses explosive AND EM damage in the same ammo ? After this - i'll abandon my lasers for projectiles. The pulse lasers allready have big troubble hitting stuff, so why keep the broken hardware ? Reducing exp shield ressists.... uhm yes? There's not enough Matar pvp ships around ?
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.31 09:59:00 - [1844] We definetly need laser cap fix and second ship bonus now. If they boosted laser and projectile dps - it just make AC/arty setups on amarr ships even better :( Anyway minmatar also need some minior boost :)
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.31 10:01:00 - [1845] Originally by: Vagel This is a Matar boost - NOT an amar boost! Who else but matar uses explosive AND EM damage in the same ammo ? After this - i'll abandon my lasers for projectiles. The pulse lasers allready have big troubble hitting stuff, so why keep the broken hardware ? Reducing exp shield ressists.... uhm yes? There's not enough Matar pvp ships around ? It makes it so much easier to break people who both shield and armour tank. Oh, wait.... Now, basic maths: 80% of your damage has gotten a 10% boost, 40% of my damage has gotten a 10% boost. Who got a bigger boost in absolute terms? Troll much? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.01.31 10:33:00 - [1846] Originally by: Cpt Branko Now, basic maths: 80% of your damage has gotten a 10% boost, 40% of my damage has gotten a 10% boost. Who got a bigger boost in absolute terms? Troll much? Amarr damage was never the problem, it was the inability to sustain that damage that was. The problem with this is that there is a danger of people, or even devs, seeing this as an amarr fix/part of the amarr fix and thinking amarr is better off than it currently is. When the things broken with amarr have nothing to do with the damage type, they have to do with fitting and cap issues. If those where fixed lasers in their current state would be just fine.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.31 10:36:00 - [1847] Originally by: Cpt Branko Now, basic maths: 80% of your damage has gotten a 10% boost, 40% of my damage has gotten a 10% boost. Who got a bigger boost in absolute terms? its not correct - for example multiF L has 28 em + 20 thermal - 58% of amarr dps got 10% boost vs armor EMP l has 20 em 8 kin 16 exp 45% dps has 10% boost vs armor AND 36% dps has 10% boost vs shield
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.31 10:53:00 - [1848] Originally by: PeacefullNub multiF L has 28 em + 20 thermal - 58% of amarr dps got 10% boost vs armor EMP l has 20 em 8 kin 16 exp 45% dps has 10% boost vs armor AND 36% dps has 10% boost vs shield Now answer your own question Originally by: Cpt Branko Who got a bigger boost in absolute terms? Amarr, obviously. Since ships don't tank both at once? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
evriss	Posted - 2008.01.31 11:05:00 - [1849] this change is totally ******** in terms of being a caldari pilot. :-(
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.01.31 12:22:00 - [1850] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 31/01/2008 12:24:23 Originally by: PeacefullNub Edited by: PeacefullNub on 31/01/2008 10:38:12 Originally by: Cpt Branko Now, basic maths: 80% of your damage has gotten a 10% boost, 40% of my damage has gotten a 10% boost. Its not correct - for example: multiF L has 28 em + 20 thermal - 58% of amarr dps got 10% boost vs armor EMP l has 20 em 8 kin 16 exp 45% dps has 10% boost vs armor AND 36% dps has 10% boost vs shield Now answer your own question Originally by: Cpt Branko Who got a bigger boost in absolute terms? Good figures, also Minmatar weapons have huge alpha due to damage modifiers. Your figures dont take this into account. Also ship bonus fix minmatar damage, which your figures also dont take into aco****. With ship bonus's, the damage increase is way beyond amarr bonus. The Anti-Amarr crowd are trying to use the trick without ship bonus, as CCP gave minmater ship damage/rof bonus as part of a projectile fix a while ago. But given that Amarr use projectiles anyway, it widens the gap between Amarr and Minmatar:) Sig locked, lack of Eve content

Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.31 12:36:00 - [1851] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Good figures, also Minmatar weapons have huge alpha due to damage modifiers. You must be talking about artilleries, something which practically never gets used in small gangs and which suck in all respects (DPS, optimal, etc) except alpha strike Originally by: Jonny JoJo Your figures dont take this into account. You should work on your math. When talking about relative damage improvements, multiplying 100 by 1.10 and multiplying 1000 by 1.10 are both, strangely, enough, 10% increases. Originally by: Jonny JoJo Also ship bonus fix minmatar damage, which your figures also dont take into aco***. With ship bonus's, the damage increase is way beyond amarr bonus. Look. 101.10 is a 10% boost. 1001.10 is again a 10% boost. Primary education is your friend. Originally by:* Jonny JoJo But given that Amarr use projectiles anyway, it widens the gap between Amarr and Minmatar:) Amarr use projectiles on preety much 3 ships I can think of. You're just trolling. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2008.01.31 13:51:00 - [1852] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 31/01/2008 13:52:02 this isn't a Amarr boost, its a general tanking nerf and damage boost to everyone. Currently an armour tank with 3 actives gives: EM: 60% Therm: 70.8% Kin: 66.3% EXP: 59.5% EM becomes 50%... which is awful, on 2x EANM+DC tank the resistances currently are: EM: 80% Therm: 67.6% Kin: 62.3% EXP: 55.1% EM then becomes around 75% with the change. Your lowest resistance using 2xEANM+DC is higher than the lowest on 3x active active hardener tanks. What you lose out in resistance on the armour you more than gain on shields and structure. Plus it takes less fitting: 3 active = 36 x 3 = 108 cpu 2x eanm + DC = 36 x 2 + 30 = 102 cpu. That means that using 3x active resistance modules your going to have 0% EM on shields, 50% on armour and structure even for everyone (which helps the higher dps ships rather than those who rely on damage type choice). Do people really think that people are going to fly with EM lowest on all levels of HP? Especially with the weak amarr ships going to get boosted (yet to see how). At least with omni tanking currently shields have a decent resistance to Exp so even if you don't do anything to shields your making up a bit more the EXP being lowest on armour. All this change will do is make more people use OMNI tanking. EM resistance on armour isn't the problem, the balance between armour tanking v shield tanking and OMNI v Specific tanking is the problem which if anything is made worse for EM damage dealers with this change. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Malken Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.31 13:57:00 - [1853] i hear that megapulse2 with conflag got worse tracking then a revelations guns, does anyother race have that problem with worse tracking then their own dreadnaught?
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2008.01.31 14:21:00 - [1854] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 31/01/2008 14:22:22 Originally by: Malken i hear that megapulse2 with conflag got worse tracking then a revelations guns, does anyother race have that problem with worse tracking then their own dreadnaught? False. Has a worse tracking value but a much lower signature resolution. Since in the tracking formula it is TrackingSigantureRes the resulting number for Megapulse using Conflag is ALWAYS superior than ANY XL weapon. ------------------------- Originally by:* "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.31 14:22:00 - [1855] Originally by: Malken i hear that megapulse2 with conflag got worse tracking then a revelations guns, does anyother race have that problem with worse tracking then their own dreadnaught? Not revelation, but whorse than any non laser dread with close weapon. And its pure tracking - without turret sig resolution taken in account.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2008.01.31 14:24:00 - [1856] Originally by: PeacefullNub Originally by: Malken i hear that megapulse2 with conflag got worse tracking then a revelations guns, does anyother race have that problem with worse tracking then their own dreadnaught? Not revelation, but whorse than any non laser dread with close weapon. And its pure tracking - without turret sig resolution taken in account. No such thing as "pure tracking", signature of a target and signature res of a weapon is ALWAYS taken into account with the tracking stat. The only thing that matters is the resulting number, not the parts. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.01.31 14:30:00 - [1857] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 31/01/2008 14:31:23 Originally by: Malken i hear that megapulse2 with conflag got worse tracking then a revelations guns, does anyother race have that problem with worse tracking then their own dreadnaught? You are almost correct. Megapuse + Conflag has worse tracking than any non-amarr Dreadnaught. Of course, the anti-amarr crowed will start talking about sig formulas and other varables that are not "tracking" to try to confuse you in order to justify such crap tracking. Its like the canabis addict saying that his addiction is fine as he knows the herion user down the road. Ignore them - Ask them why their own ships are able to track better than Amarr? That is the real question Basically, Amarr's crap tracking is like giving enemy ships extra resists free of charge as you shots basically miss. Nanoships can murder Amarr, as amarr's poor tracking will hurt it badly. Sig locked, lack of Eve content
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.31 14:36:00 - [1858] ...and transversal (or speed/expl velocity for missiles) - but it is chance to hit target. Of course megapulse with conflag has better chance to hit than XL weapon, but its fact that tracking bar in megabeam info will be whorse than ion siedge blasters for example.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2008.01.31 14:52:00 - [1859] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 31/01/2008 14:31:23 Originally by: Malken i hear that megapulse2 with conflag got worse tracking then a revelations guns, does anyother race have that problem with worse tracking then their own dreadnaught? You are almost correct. Megapuse + Conflag has worse tracking than any non-amarr Dreadnaught. Of course, the anti-amarr crowed will start talking about sig formulas and other varables that are not "tracking" to try to confuse you in order to justify such crap tracking. Its like the canabis addict saying that his addiction is fine as he knows the herion user down the road. Ignore them - Ask them why their own ships are able to track better than Amarr? That is the real question Basically, Amarr's crap tracking is like giving enemy ships extra resists free of charge as you shots basically miss. Nanoships can murder Amarr, as amarr's poor tracking will hurt it badly. troll away, just cos you say it doesn't make it true. CCP have said the tracking formula is correct, you saying it doesn't matter doesn't make it true. Tracking stat means nothing without the guns resolution and the targets signature. Just because you can turn the gun better doesn't mean you can hit it better. Megapulse T2 + Conflag: Tracking - 0.02109x Sig - 400 Ion Seige Blaster: Tracking - 0.02706x Sig - 1000 Assuming a target of 400 signature orbits at 10km at 50m/s: tracking factor = ((traversal / (range * turret tracking)) * (turret sig res / sig rad)) ^ 2 = (50 / (10000 * 0.02109)) * (400 / 400) = 50 / (210.9 * 1) Megapulse + Conflag = 0.23 = (50 / (10000 * 0.02706)) * (1000 / 400) = 50 / (270.6 * 2.5) Ion Seige Blaster = 0.73 The lower the value the better... oh dear looks like your large guns have much better tracking than XL guns. Keep trolling with your lies, your the one trying to confuse people, i'm the one using the facts that CCP have said are accurate. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.01.31 15:11:00 - [1860] Mila Prestocquote - repeat after me: "Megapulses + conflag has whorse tracking than XL close range weapon" Jonny JoJo - now your turn: "but megapuses will hit targets better than XL weapon becouse of better turret signature resolution" Any problem now?

Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.31 15:19:00 - [1861] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 31/01/2008 15:25:48 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Nanoships can murder Amarr, as amarr's poor tracking will hurt it badly. Amarr (medium gun users, at least) have a extremely higher chance of hitting nano-ships then Gallente (can you say range?) and a bit inferior chance then Minmatar (since Amarr can do it with T1 ammo, and Minmatar have to use Barrage M). However, it takes the pilot to have a brain and not sit there like a moron. I mean, if I can hit non-pimped inties trying to orbit using 220s II with Barrage M loaded (using a bit of flying around and maneuvering obviously), then FMP IIs should be able to do the same (motion prediction IV here) - you should quite certainly be able to hit most nano-ships which have the sig radius of the moon with HP IIs/425mm AC IIs w Barrage even (provided you don't just sit there like a complete idiot). It's Gallente who have a problem really. As for T2 high damage ammo tracking: well, it sucks for all races. If I want to use Hail M, I have to basically sit still at 500m to get all my DPS, something only really feasible with heavy ECM support or in a ganksquad. I don't know if anyone uses Hail L/Void L in normal situations. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Skjorta	Posted - 2008.01.31 16:34:00 - [1862] You may have noticed where the dev blog said that this was just one of the changes to the amarr problem. Granted it may be years until the next one
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.01.31 17:14:00 - [1863] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 31/01/2008 17:24:02 Originally by: Mila Prestoc Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 31/01/2008 14:31:23 Originally by: Malken i hear that megapulse2 with conflag got worse tracking then a revelations guns, does anyother race have that problem with worse tracking then their own dreadnaught? You are almost correct. Megapuse + Conflag has worse tracking than any non-amarr Dreadnaught. Of course, the anti-amarr crowed will start talking about sig formulas and other varables that are not "tracking" to try to confuse you in order to justify such crap tracking. Its like the canabis addict saying that his addiction is fine as he knows the herion user down the road. Ignore them - Ask them why their own ships are able to track better than Amarr? That is the real question Basically, Amarr's crap tracking is like giving enemy ships extra resists free of charge as you shots basically miss. Nanoships can murder Amarr, as amarr's poor tracking will hurt it badly. troll away, just cos you say it doesn't make it true. CCP have said the tracking formula is correct, you saying it doesn't matter doesn't make it true. Tracking stat means nothing without the guns resolution and the targets signature. Just because you can turn the gun better doesn't mean you can hit it better. Megapulse T2 + Conflag: Tracking - 0.02109x Sig - 400 Ion Seige Blaster: Tracking - 0.02706x Sig - 1000 Assuming a target of 400 signature orbits at 10km at 50m/s: tracking factor = ((traversal / (range * turret tracking)) * (turret sig res / sig rad)) ^ 2 = (50 / (10000 * 0.02109)) * (400 / 400) = 50 / (210.9 * 1) Megapulse + Conflag = 0.23 = (50 / (10000 * 0.02706)) * (1000 / 400) = 50 / (270.6 * 2.5) Ion Seige Blaster = 0.73 The lower the value the better... oh dear looks like your large guns have much better tracking than XL guns. Keep trolling with your lies, your the one trying to confuse people, i'm the one using the facts that CCP have said are accurate. Please read my post at the end. I am talking of pure tracking, which is a fair enough comparison between bs's. you are talking of turret sig, stating that somehow amarr tracking is great because a dreadnaught shooting a smaller target gets a worse chance to hit than the Amarr. I could counter by stating that a webbed typhoon going at 20 m/s (typical speed when in gang and webbed) transversal to a Megapulse/conflag Amarr bs at somthing like 1km distance would have the amarr bs 40 % shots. maintaining 20 m/s transversal at 500m, the typhoon would make the Megapulse + Conflag pilot miss almost every shot - yep thats like pressing the immunity button. Therefore your whole point is stupid. Look further back in this thread. The real question is Ask them why their own ships are able to track better than Amarr? Sig locked, lack of Eve content
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.31 18:24:00 - [1864] So what you are saying is that you are taking numbers out of context in order to make a point? A point that is disproved by putting the numbers back in context?
Ademaro Imre Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.31 18:33:00 - [1865] Isn't this more of a boost to Minmatar ships?
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.01.31 18:42:00 - [1866] "I brought down the Professor of maths to my home and he also ran calculations with me." - JJJ Priceless.... Call me an old crusty, but that 10% change in base resistances looks a bit excessive, I guess we'll have see how it pans out after mass testing. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2008.01.31 18:55:00 - [1867] Originally by: Goumindong So what you are saying is that you are taking numbers out of context in order to make a point? A point that is disproved by putting the numbers back in context? Thats exactly what he's doing, "pure tracking" I wonder what single stat I can pick out and complain about by taking it totally out of context and the mechanics of the game. I'm going to start complaining about AC's range, /me puts on his JoJo hat: AC's optimal range is worst of all races weapons by far, any ship webbing it at more than this range basically makes them immune due to the damage drop. Don't try and confuse people with falloff, i'm just talking about pure optimal. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.01.31 19:04:00 - [1868] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 31/01/2008 19:05:57 Originally by: Goumindong So what you are saying is that you are taking numbers out of context in order to make a point? A point that is disproved by putting the numbers back in context? I thought the point was Amarr has worst close range tracking. No matter how you play the numbers, it ends up the same - Amarr have worst tracking. E.G Missing a Webbed typhoon on 40% of shots with 20m/s transversal at a distancec of 1km. This is nuts - thats like a 40% build in resist all! If a cheap webber is used, then the missed shots is far higher Sig locked, lack of Eve content
General StarScream Borg Collective hive mind	Posted - 2008.01.31 19:14:00 - [1869] Thats not true jo jo now stop crying about **** that dont need to be fixed, you ruin the game man. Please resize signature to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.01.31 19:59:00 - [1870] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 31/01/2008 19:05:57 Originally by: Goumindong So what you are saying is that you are taking numbers out of context in order to make a point? A point that is disproved by putting the numbers back in context? I thought the point was Amarr has worst close range tracking. No matter how you play the numbers, it ends up the same - Amarr have worst tracking. E.G Missing a Webbed typhoon on 40% of shots with 20m/s transversal at a distancec of 1km. This is nuts - thats like a 40% build in resist all! If a cheap webber is used, then the missed shots is far higher Of course there's nothing stopping the Amarr ship from moving in that situation to minimise transversal, it's trivially easy... if you actually play the game and not æquickfitÆ type programs, or twist things so out of context to make it seem the actual hits you land on a target is on a par with a dreadnought ('tracking' means absolutely bollox all without multiplying by [target sig. radius/turret sig. resolution] ). ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.31 20:23:00 - [1871] Originally by: Jonny JoJo I thought the point was Amarr has worst close range tracking. No matter how you play the numbers, it ends up the same - Amarr have worst tracking. E.G Missing a Webbed typhoon on 40% of shots with 20m/s transversal at a distancec of 1km. This is nuts - thats like a 40% build in resist all! If a cheap webber is used, then the missed shots is far higher Dont shoot a typhoon at 1km/s unless you are burning the opposite way reducing transversal to increase the damage of your shots them. Amarr do have the worst close range tracking, they ought to have the worst close range tracking. How in the world would other races compete if Amarr didnt have the worst close range tracking?
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.31 21:16:00 - [1872] Originally by: Goumindong Amarr do have the worst close range tracking, they ought to have the worst close range tracking. How in the world would other races compete if Amarr didnt have the worst close range tracking? Well, if we have middle of the field DPS across the board, then why not middle of the field tracking? Why worst?
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.31 21:18:00 - [1873] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Originally by: Goumindong Amarr do have the worst close range tracking, they ought to have the worst close range tracking. How in the world would other races compete if Amarr didnt have the worst close range tracking? Well, if we have middle of the field DPS across the board, then why not middle of the field tracking? Why worst? Bechause of the best Range on Short Range Guns. Blasters, worst Range\best Tracking Autocannons, middle in Range\Tracking Puls Lasers, worst Tracking\best Range ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.31 21:20:00 - [1874] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Christari Zuborov Originally by: Goumindong Amarr do have the worst close range tracking, they ought to have the worst close range tracking. How in the world would other races compete if Amarr didnt have the worst close range tracking? Well, if we have middle of the field DPS across the board, then why not middle of the field tracking? Why worst? Bechause of the best Range on Short Range Guns. Blasters, worst Range\best Tracking Autocannons, middle in Range\Tracking Puls Lasers, worst Tracking\best Range Thank you...
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.01.31 21:33:00 - [1875] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Christari Zuborov Originally by: Goumindong Amarr do have the worst close range tracking, they ought to have the worst close range tracking. How in the world would other races compete if Amarr didnt have the worst close range tracking? Well, if we have middle of the field DPS across the board, then why not middle of the field tracking? Why worst? Bechause of the best Range on Short Range Guns. Blasters, worst Range\best Tracking Autocannons, middle in Range\Tracking Puls Lasers, worst Tracking\best Range Except this is irrelevant outside short range, i.e 1-10km. target jumps in gate, uncloaks at most 15km away and by the time you both lock each other, the short range has cycled a mwd boost to get into whatever optimal range is relevant. So above 1-10km, thats when long range ships come in. There is no mid range 25-40km nieche as there is no 40km webs/scrams. Sig locked, lack of Eve content
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.31 21:42:00 - [1876] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego Bechause of the best Range on Short Range Guns. Blasters, worst Range\best Tracking Autocannons, middle in Range\Tracking Puls Lasers, worst Tracking\best Range Except this is irrelevant outside short range, i.e 1-10km. target jumps in gate, uncloaks at most 15km away and by the time you both lock each other, the short range has cycled a mwd boost to get into whatever optimal range is relevant. So above 1-10km, thats when long range ships come in. There is no mid range 25-40km nieche as there is no 40km webs/scrams. "Sarcasm mode on" Because PVP happens only at gates after decloacing and never in a Gang? "Sarcasm mode off" Comon you have lost a dozen times at this topic and still try to state it... ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.01.31 21:53:00 - [1877] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego Bechause of the best Range on Short Range Guns. Blasters, worst Range\best Tracking Autocannons, middle in Range\Tracking Puls Lasers, worst Tracking\best Range Except this is irrelevant outside short range, i.e 1-10km. target jumps in gate, uncloaks at most 15km away and by the time you both lock each other, the short range has cycled a mwd boost to get into whatever optimal range is relevant. So above 1-10km, thats when long range ships come in. There is no mid range 25-40km nieche as there is no 40km webs/scrams. "Sarcasm mode on" Because PVP happens only at gates after decloacing and never in a Gang? "Sarcasm mode off" Comon you have lost a dozen times at this topic and still try to state it... Please prove to me that people use mid range pvp. Every alliance I see have wither close range ships and long range snipers. mid range is obsolete Sig locked, lack of Eve content
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.31 21:57:00 - [1878] Edited by: The Djego on 31/01/2008 21:58:28 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: The Djego Bechause of the best Range on Short Range Guns. Blasters, worst Range\best Tracking Autocannons, middle in Range\Tracking Puls Lasers, worst Tracking\best Range Except this is irrelevant outside short range, i.e 1-10km. target jumps in gate, uncloaks at most 15km away and by the time you both lock each other, the short range has cycled a mwd boost to get into whatever optimal range is relevant. So above 1-10km, thats when long range ships come in. There is no mid range 25-40km nieche as there is no 40km webs/scrams. "Sarcasm mode on" Because PVP happens only at gates after decloacing and never in a Gang? "Sarcasm mode off" Comon you have lost a dozen times at this topic and still try to state it... Please prove to me that people use mid range pvp. Every alliance I see have wither close range ships and long range snipers. mid range is obsolete Wow awsome close Range PVP in a 20 Man Roaming Gang... /me activates the Scrambler or EW to get on the Killmail Please prove me you ever done PVP. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Jonny JoJo 425 II In PVE? Surely hybrid users use Blaster in PvE.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.31 22:24:00 - [1879] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Please prove to me that people use mid range pvp. Every alliance I see have wither close range ships and long range snipers. mid range is obsolete Log on and jump into almost any 0.0 system. Fly around a bit and when you explode, note the ranges at which the ships were when you exploded.
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.02.01 10:31:00 - [1880] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 31/01/2008 22:27:51 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Please prove to me that people use mid range pvp. Every alliance I see have wither close range ships and long range snipers. mid range is obsolete Log on and jump into almost any 0.0 system. Fly around a bit and when you explode, note the ranges at which the ships were when you exploded. ED: alternatly, get on over to the video section and take a look at some videos. There is a particularly good one called "Genesis" in which Kil2 solos a particularly foolish Astarte in his Harbinger. Bloody hell, thought i'd never agree to a GS member, but THIS. Get a grip Jonny. Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sht up* Originally by: CCP Explorer I know we have said this before, but this time we really mean itÖ

Nova Fox	Posted - 2008.02.01 10:42:00 - [1881] Goons know alot about being blown up to bits I wouldnt argue on that one.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.02.01 11:18:00 - [1882] Anyone who has tracking problems in webrange is quite obviously a total noob ; but, we are talking about the same guy who complains about nano-fits not having a web and thereby not being capable of dictating range. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.01 12:27:00 - [1883] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 01/02/2008 12:33:38 Originally by: Cpt Branko but, we are talking about the same guy who complains about nano-fits not having a web I can only speak for myself here, but back when I used to fly a nano curse, I always kept a web on it. This would stop the target from simply MWDing back to the gate and jumping through. I know this because when I was beat due to numbers or logon trapped, I would just nanoback to gate and jump through once agression clears. It was also handy for keeping certain enemies at range, such as out of their optimal. It was also handy for dictating range when fighing other nanoships while waiting for them to run out of cap or cap booster charges (if they were carrying them). Personally, I beleive nanos are going to get nerfed, and I think this is a good thing. Yes, I was a ex-nanoer myself, but I can see very well how it is destroying real pvp nowadays. (real pvp = non-ganks) -- Billion Isk Mission
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.02.01 12:57:00 - [1884] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 01/02/2008 12:59:14 Originally by: Lord WarATron I can only speak for myself here, but back when I used to fly a nano curse, I always kept a web on it. This would stop the target from simply MWDing back to the gate and jumping through. I know this because when I was beat due to numbers or logon trapped, I would just nanoback to gate and jump through once agression clears. It was also handy for keeping certain enemies at range, such as out of their optimal. It was also handy for dictating range when fighing other nanoships while waiting for them to run out of cap or cap booster charges (if they were carrying them). TBH, it pays to have one on a curse. You have the spare mids to do it, and the curse is a awesome anti-nano platform, so it just makes it better at its role. However, ships which only have dual-extender tanks sacrifice too much by fitting a web. Originally by: Lord WarATron Personally, I beleive nanos are going to get nerfed, and I think this is a good thing. Yes, I was a ex-nanoer myself, but I can see very well how it is destroying real pvp nowadays. (real pvp = non-ganks) Right now I have absolutely no nanoships in my hangar. Two ships out of 6 which I regularly use have a istab II + nano II fitted to help their agility and (slightly) topspeed. I sacrifice quite a bit of gank/tank (two slots are a lot) to gain somewhat more mobility. If the speed modules themselves get nerfed, this will cease to make sense - they already don't give you a lot of benefit per module. Nerfing the modules themselves would regulate them to the recycle bin for ships which aren't fully nano-fit. I'd hate it personally if fitting for agility/speed became pointless; and nerfing the modules would do exactly that (while still enabling people to nano if they're going to spend a lot of ISK on snakes/faction MWDs). I guess people are whining because it is possible to totally pimp your ship to achieve preety insane speeds. Will this get nerfed? Maybe/I don't care. However, the modules themselves do need to stay as they are. Only a select number of nano-ships work w/out rigs and implants, and these are mostly ships meant to be nano-ed in the first place (aka, Stabber, Vagabond, Fleet Stabber, all the interceptors, partially the Zealot). However, now you have a problem - what to do with the blasted HACs? Their selling point is mostly mobility - they pay for this with a much higher price tag then T2 fit Tier 2 BCs which have roughly similar or very slightly superior performance. Take away the mobility, and what is the point of the ships? Also, I don't see it as 'runing PvP'. It may be because I'm in low-sec, and considering low-sec doesn't have bubbles (and doesn't have inties/recons camping mostly), people don't see the need to nano-fit nearly as much as in 0.0. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.02.01 15:24:00 - [1885] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 01/02/2008 15:24:54 Originally by: Cpt Branko Anyone who has tracking problems in webrange is quite obviously a total noob You web a typhoon and so the typhoon is able to keep a 20/ms transversal on you at a 1km distance (gang skills, manual movement, whatever). Youe megapulse + Conflag miss's the typhoon on 40% of shots. Thats a major tracking problem in web range right there. Sig locked, lack of Eve content
Skjorta	Posted - 2008.02.01 15:57:00 - [1886] Assuming you're thick as ** and decide to just sit there and let the phoon orbit you. Web + mwd away to put that high optimal to use. Tada! Amarr still have a problem, its just jojo thats full of ** making the rest of the amarr look bad.
Jonny JoJo Amarr The Imperial Guards	Posted - 2008.02.01 17:43:00 - [1887] Originally by: Skjorta Assuming you're thick as ** and decide to just sit there and let the phoon orbit you. Web + mwd away to put that high optimal to use. Tada! Amarr still have a problem, its just jojo thats full of ** making the rest of the amarr look bad. I said transversal - Not orbit. Who's the thick person now? Sig locked, lack of Eve content
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2008.02.01 18:37:00 - [1888] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Skjorta Assuming you're thick as ** and decide to just sit there and let the phoon orbit you. Web + mwd away to put that high optimal to use. Tada! Amarr still have a problem, its just jojo thats full of making the rest of the amarr look bad. I said transversal - Not orbit. Who's the thick person now? Still you. If a amarr pilot with a web allows a typhoon to get to 1km thats a bad pilot and a good typhoon pilot. No idea how you got 20m/s transversal, when a Abaddon and Typhoon fitting similar armour tanks+rigs there webbed (90%) speeds are 12m/s and 16m/s. All the Abaddon has to do is keep moving away from the Typhoon and there are no problems hitting it. I love how you changed your already unreasonable situation to this one when your numbers (which you no doubt you plucked out of the air) were proved wrong, so you picked numbers you could use even though that situation is near-impossible and relies on bad piloting on the Abaddons part and good piloting on the Typhoons part. I've still not figured if your trolling for or against amarr, cos you make amarr complaints just look stupid drowning out the legitimate complaints. ------------------------- Originally by:** "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.02.02 11:44:00 - [1889] Another devblog... Now its caldary+amarr boost devblog Zealot and omen now have 5 turret slots - but no fitting boost for them. Apoc is best med to long range sniper ingame now. But any future laser fix will make it even more overpowered (so i quess there will be no laser fixes). TD now kills optimal+fallof. Good, but anyway amarrs have not many ew slots. I just dont understand why CCP avoided general laser problems (cap usage+second ship bonus)?
jullll	Posted - 2008.02.02 14:24:00 - [1890] awesome analys. I completly sign it.

SiJira	Posted - 2008.02.02 15:25:00 - [1891] amarr have got their oomph Trashed sig, Shark was here
Becka Call	Posted - 2008.02.03 02:22:00 - [1892] From reading the dev blog its obvious that Zulupark did not read this thread.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.02.03 02:24:00 - [1893] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/02/2008 02:26:22 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 01/02/2008 15:24:54 Originally by: Cpt Branko Anyone who has tracking problems in webrange is quite obviously a total noob You web a typhoon and so the typhoon is able to keep a 20/ms transversal on you at a 1km distance (gang skills, manual movement, whatever). Youe megapulse + Conflag miss's the typhoon on 40% of shots. Thats a major tracking problem in web range right there. Well, yeah, if you're a horrible pilot, it is Seriously, how is the Typhoon going to do that? Ask the other guy to 'stop ship' and 'web me when I get to orbit'? ;) Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Firmus Terra	Posted - 2008.02.03 03:11:00 - [1894] ^^^ If you're having issues tracking then use AN Multi. Don't try and prove a point by gimping your example with Conflag and putting it in an unlikely situation. Did you forget you had engines or were you trying to row by punching your monitor? If you want to say something about tracking, I'd like to see tracking comparisons between each turret system, with realistic ammo, realistic situations, and sig radius accounted for. The "conflag vs. typhoon moving 20m/s @ 1000m" argument unfortunately says nothing. P.S. I am pro Amarr boostage.
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.06 01:28:00 - [1895] I'm bumping this thread, because by reading posts by devs its becoming more & more obvious that CCP has come up with a few changes and now they are going to ***** foot around with the rest. These changes are absolute musts yet CCP isn't going to do a damn thing because they got us amarr users happy with the handful of changes they did. Yes, they fixed the Apoc, but what about the Navy Apoc and Paladin? Those need to be changed just the same. Yes they fixed the Zealot & Omen but let them high & dry with fitting problems galore. This quote from Fendahl is ridiculous : "We think the power output of the Omen and the Zealot is sufficient to support the extra turret. The Omen can fit for a high damage setup using focused medium pulse lasers and the Zealot has no problem fitting some extremely powerful heavy pulse laser setups. Increased power output on the Zealot would make it overpowered and we prefer to take a bit of an incremental approach on the Omen and not go overboard." So everything is apparently based on pulses and we're not allowed to fit beams. Stupid!!! Oh, and Amarr pg is determined by the crappiest guns unlike every other race in the game. So this thread is not going to die, CCP your fixes are measely crumbs for us poor Amarr to make us forget how crappier our race really is. The following are absolutely necessary before I conceed that CCP has any idea on wtf they are doing, because as needed as the changes they made were, these are more important still. Laser Cap reduction_________????? Laser Fitting redution_________????? 7th turret Absolution__________????? Retribution Med slot___________????? Nos rework for Curse/Pilgrim___????? Don't Ban me for my Love of Amarr!
Agil TradeAlt	Posted - 2008.02.12 17:38:00 - [1896] Well, Omen used to be impossible to fit, now with a 5th turret with no cpu/grid to help, its going to be an empty slot
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.12 18:05:00 - [1897] Originally by: Cosmo Raata So everything is apparently based on pulses and we're not allowed to fit beams. Stupid!!! Oh, and Amarr pg is determined by the crappiest guns unlike every other race in the game. So this thread is not going to die, CCP your fixes are measely crumbs for us poor Amarr to make us forget how crappier our race really is. The following are absolutely necessary before I conceed that CCP has any idea on wtf they are doing, because as needed as the changes they made were, these are more important still. Laser Cap reduction_________????? Laser Fitting redution_________????? 7th turret Absolution__________????? Retribution Med slot___________????? Nos rework for Curse/Pilgrim___????? Yeah, I hope they reduce some beam fittings. Reduce cap usage and/or increase amarr ships inherent cap. Also fix pilgrim, it really needs a fix. Curse isnt that great either, its not. its pretty weak. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.02.12 18:20:00 - [1898] Speaking of Amarr problems, why are they so ugly? I mean, they walk around with those bags over their faces... ------------------ Let me show you around. That's my lab table, and this is my workstool. And over there is my intergalactic spaceship. And here's where I keep assorted lengths of wire.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.12 18:26:00 - [1899] Originally by: Agent Li Speaking of Amarr problems, why are they so ugly? I mean, they walk around with those bags over their faces... Do you see a bag over my face? Atleast we dont run around in school uniforms in our mid 40s. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.02.12 18:29:00 - [1900] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Agent Li Speaking of Amarr problems, why are they so ugly? I mean, they walk around with those bags over their faces... Do you see a bag over my face? Atleast we dont run around in school uniforms in our mid 40s. Hey! I wear a patch over one eye to save it in case I see an Amarr without a bag over their head... ------------------ Let me show you around. That's my lab table, and this is my workstool. And over there is my intergalactic spaceship. And here's where I keep assorted lengths of wire.

Yazmina	Posted - 2008.02.12 20:36:00 - [1901] I have posted several times on this thread and will do so again. I have an abaddon, the best battleship that the amarr have, t3 and all that. I have eng 5 and electronic 5 and I cant fit a full rack of heavy beams on it to save my life. The most I can fit is 4 heavy pulses and 4 heavy beams. This is to say nothing of tachyons or any other pg/cpu eating mods. The fitting of lasers and beams especially have to be reduced. If I in the biggest bb with all skills at 5 dont have enough grid to even fit 8 heavy beams we have a problem. PLEASE CCP, at least let us fit 8 beams, and maybe even possibly wishfully in our wildest dreams a few tachyons, which after all it makes sense that the heaviest battleship should be able to fit the heaviest weapons.
Agil TradeAlt	Posted - 2008.02.12 20:56:00 - [1902] Originally by: Cosmo Raata Laser Cap reduction_________????? Laser Fitting redution_________????? 7th turret Absolution__________????? Retribution Med slot___________????? Nos rework for Curse/Pilgrim___????? In addition 5th Turret Devoter is missing - even model with turrets show this Missing Harbringer Turret - even model with turrets show this MAJOR cap problems at all levels. Why are they missing a turret? Because of the crazy fitting requirements, CCP would have to increase CPU/Grid to almost a shipsize higher. So to avoid this, they just remove amarr turrets
Jonny MoJo Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.14 09:36:00 - [1903] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/02/2008 02:26:22 Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 01/02/2008 15:24:54 Originally by: Cpt Branko Anyone who has tracking problems in webrange is quite obviously a total noob You web a typhoon and so the typhoon is able to keep a 20/ms transversal on you at a 1km distance (gang skills, manual movement, whatever). Youe megapulse + Conflag miss's the typhoon on 40% of shots. Thats a major tracking problem in web range right there. Well, yeah, if you're a horrible pilot, it is Seriously, how is the Typhoon going to do that? Ask the other guy to 'stop ship' and 'web me when I get to orbit'? ;) The point is the crappy amarr tracking for close range weapons. What would you suggest CCP change so that this gets fixed? Refresh for next Real life CCP Sig(21 Total)
Hey You Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.28 01:48:00 - [1904] What about a Geddon? To fit 7 Tachions II and MWD II you need 2 RCU II and 1 PDU II. Stupid all the way. And thats with AWU 5 and Maxed skills btw. 1k Power grid like Apoc got would be nice and 5 cpu as well. I don't rly have issue with cap or whatever. Just retarded high fitting requirements. __________________________________ We Ride Together We Die Together We Few, We Happy Few...
Nom Gand Omega's Doom deadspace society	Posted - 2008.02.28 03:21:00 - [1905] /Signed We need a boost, im some shape or form...I say drop the First bonus every Amarr ship gets, and bring the cap usage of every turret down to hybrids or something...We only have 1 bonus for Christ sake. I think that having some crystals that do different bonus damages would be nice aswell. Or CCP could just get like 10 people who ACTUALLY know what their doing, stick them in a room and say no food untill you give us some good ideas on Amarr. ---- My Views dont mean that they are the same of my corp and or my Alliance. Skill is when Luck Becomes a Habit.
Potes Amarr Dkiller Delta Force Corp. CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.02.28 12:48:00 - [1906] Like the honorable gent cosmo suggested there are many other issues that need to be dealt with by CCP regarding Amarr. (would love paladin tweak and abso and retri love ) but most importantly FIX THE CURSE AND PILGRIM! these ships r so underpar to all other recons its not even funny! and laser cap usage needs some tweaking as do Beams! KEEP SHOUTING PERHAPS THEY WILL HEAR US!
K'uata Sayus Minmatar Ghengis Tia Corp	Posted - 2008.02.28 19:25:00 - [1907] Edited by: K''uata Sayus on 28/02/2008 19:32:15 Ratting in Minmatar space with a salvager/ratter Harbinger, the two Heavy Modal Lasers I use give less damage vs Angels than two 650mm Artys. Huh? I have given up on Amarr ships as energy turrets never seem to be as effective as A/Cs or Arty. My Harbinger got Concorded due to my stupidity, but afterward I was glad 'cause it was getting uglier all the time. I couldn't help but think it looked like a lizard with AA batteries attached for engines. I now fly a Hurricane, consider the Rifter a much better frig than a Punisher (which I used to fly a lot), prefer the Mammoth over any Amarr industrial, and other than the Arbitrator other Amarr cruisers suck. Give me a Rupture anytime. My main is Amarr and I realized that unless I trained ships of another race, I'd be forever stuck with these cap sucking, non-versatile, limited damage type golden banana-lizard-rounded out inferior spaceboats. The best thing about Amarr space is that it is not as crowded as other race areas. A lot of Minmatar space is like a friggin Calcutta slum, people fighting over 'rats like dogs over a scrap of meat. Running into other pilots missions wondering why the red crosses aren't agro-ing me. CCP moves at a snail's pace when it comes to addressing major problems like these, probably don't want to admit a huge design flaw in the original concept of the game. I love playing in New Eden, I accept the drawbacks as another challenge, but expecting Amarr to get fixed is like expecting the US Congress to get their heads out of their fundamental orifices. It ain't going to happen in my lifetime. If I wanted another job besides my real one, I'd join a big corporation.
Jonny MoJo Amarr	Posted - 2008.03.01 10:10:00 - [1908] Edited by: Jonny MoJo on 01/03/2008 10:13:32 So this Amarr boost is really giving Moa, Eagle and Ferrox Quality status. Heck, Amarr Omen and Zealot are impossible to fit with beams for their proper sniper role, and Moa, Eagle are OMG ships now. Giving Apoc some extra range now means that insted of 2-3 RCU II and 3 TRacking enchancers, you can drop down 2 tracking enhancers and have 2 cap reclays insted so you can fire guns a little bit longer. Thats retarted. The whole concept of Capless weaponry has destroyed game balance. If you guns use little or no cap, then you can focus you cap for tanking. CCP changed minmatar to use 100% cap reduction per level on their guns. Thats crazy. Put it back where it used to be and let projectiles use cap, or sort out Amarr cap usage. Amarr ships have amost 0 dps over a long period due to lag. DPS means NOTHING. Damage over time is everything, and Amarr ships tend to do 50-100dps as they can only sustain a few turrets after a minute or two. Refresh for next Real life CCP Sig(21 Total)
Brother Welcome Amarr Icarus' Wings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:15:00 - [1909] Originally by: Potes KEEP SHOUTING PERHAPS THEY WILL HEAR US! Fix lasers and fix Amarr recon, please.
Scout McAlt	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:34:00 - [1910] Originally by: Brother Welcome Originally by: Potes KEEP SHOUTING PERHAPS THEY WILL HEAR US! Fix lasers and fix Amarr recon, please. Yeah, lasers fitting and Amarr Recons need to be looked at. Fitting req on beams is too high and Pilgrim is not that good at all at anything really.

Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:48:00 - [1911] 65 pages of epic fail IMO. More to EVE than DPS figures and 'solo capability' you know. Fitting a full rack of Tachyons on a Tier 1 Battleship is likely not supposed to be easy either. Why Fely, why ...
Andreask14 Raptus Regaliter Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:51:00 - [1912] If you fit a pilgrim with lasers it gets over 330 dps, which is more dps than any other force reacon can field. So, thats what its good at. And its completely in line with all amarrian ships, they are good at medium range dps, all laser ships. I can live with that. Sig offline
trading hub	Posted - 2008.04.21 20:10:00 - [1913] /signed boost amarr at least give all dmg types, otherwise its impossible to nuke certain rats (well its possible, but so slow)!
DroneBay Diva AbChao Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.04.21 20:35:00 - [1914] Originally by: Andreask14 If you fit a pilgrim with lasers it gets over 330 dps, which is more dps than any other force reacon can field. So, thats what its good at. And its completely in line with all amarrian ships, they are good at medium range dps, all laser ships. I can live with that. Failpost. Fitting a Pilgrim for with lasers is to completely ignore its role. I can't blame you for doing so though, since it SUCKS at its role. Tbh, you get more comparable damage from a Omen with lasers at like, 10% the cost. To argue that the Pilgrim is fine because it's half decent at something other than it's role is absurd. _____________________________________________________________________________
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.04.29 15:27:00 - [1915] /me casts ressurection spell Is everything fine now? No, realy? They throwed us a bone and we gladly acepted it. So back to basis Apoc is he overpowered now? It definetly very, veary good (Yay! amarrs now have good fleet sniper and good missionboat). I personly think that "Apoc experiment" (2 real ship bonuses, fixed laser fittings and cap usage all in 1 ship) was succsessfull. Maybe its time to fix entire race? And what about 2 other BS compared with it? It just stupid when tier 2 BS better than his faction analog (Yes, devs "forgot" about that), his t2 analog and tier 1,3 BS. What about poor retributions meds? (and about all AF btw) What about zealot and omen pg? What about laser capusage and this stupid laser_cap_reduction bonus on every ship!?
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.04.29 15:47:00 - [1916] Originally by: PeacefullNub Apoc is he overpowered now? I rather like the new Apoc. I don't think it's overpowered - the range bonus is useful, but nothing really special with pulse, and isn't ridiculous with beams since the thing has problems supporting Tachs, and it gets fine range with megabeams. Quote: And what about 2 other BS compared with it? It just stupid when tier 2 BS better than his faction analog (Yes, devs "forgot" about that), his t2 analog and tier 1,3 BS. It's true that all three Amarr BS are pretty samey, but that's imho okay. The Apoc is certainly distinct from the other two and I think the Geddon and Abaddon are different enough from each other (differing focus on drones, Abaddon can tank really hard, geddon is cheaper and faster, etc). I think the Geddon and Abaddon are about as different from each other as the Thron is from the Hyperion. Quote: What about poor retributions meds? (and about all AF btw) I'd ask for 4/2/5 but frankly I don't really know what I'd do with the second mid. It doesn't really need a web, and it's not making a good tackler with only two midslots anyway (lacks Crusader's speed). I actually really like the 5/1/5 slot layout. It's quirky. Quote: What about zealot and omen pg? MORE FITTING PLEASE :( Give Zealot more CPU (This ship is absurdly hard to fit CPUwise with t2 equipment, i find myself looking at lots of faction gear to get it to fit), a little more PG (50-100ish), and more cap. Give Omen like 150-200 more powergrid please. needing dual RCUIIs to fit 5x HPL II + MWD isn't funny. Quote: What about laser capusage and this stupid laser_cap_reduction bonus on every ship!? As much as I would like laser capuse to be universally halved and all cap use bonuses to be changed to damage (if no damage bonus), optimal, or tracking, I think the consensus is that it would be stupidly overpowered. Although I'm pretty much drooling over a 10% optimal / 5% damage harbinger. __________________________________
PeacefullNub	Posted - 2008.04.30 23:58:00 - [1917] So peacefull and silent here...
Buyerr	Posted - 2008.05.01 03:16:00 - [1918] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Astorothe Edited by: Astorothe on 09/11/2007 02:45:17 I was surprised to see the Raven rank so low on DPS - I always thought they were the King. Still, they are definately the master of level 4 missions but I guess thats because of the lack of range restrictions and uber-tanking ability mixed in. In PvE travel time for missiles is less an issue. Add to that no range restrictions (work as well point blank as they do at 60km). Add to that damage is consistent (no loss to tracking/range issues). Add to that short of being jammed EW has no effect on missiles. Likewise with FoF even being jammed can be overcome. Add to that they can change damage types for best effect. So, while "low" DPS it is consistent and mostly unstoppable DPS. That counts for a LOT in PvE. In PvP less so but still improves their utility over what the raw numbers show. pliff.... if you know how to use a turret pve boat it will greatly outdo the missile boats. problem is that most people want to 100% turn their brains of and don't have to do anything but sit still and press f1-f6/f4/f7 (depending on the raven t1,golem,navy). a well setup gunboat will outdamage the missile boats greatly in close range and up to around 70-80km outdamage it slightly. while still holding a tank that is more then enough to perma tank, and if you know how to use turrets in pve, you will have no problem with the frig/cruiser npc since they will instant pop or 2shot kill. but ravens are for the lazy and the noobish runners ^^ (only problems with turrets is that it restricts you to one type of space for your missioning chose of the dmg type I declare war on stupidity


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CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CONCLUSION - Mega Does OVER a Third more Damage than Apoc when both fit for the same job and outclasses it in every way

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of training either Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar!

LALALALALAL I'M GOING TO SIT HERE WHISTLING LIONEL RICHIE TUNES WITH MY FINGERS IN MY EARS SO I CAN'T HEAR YOU, WHINE WHINE BUHU

I want Amarr laserships to be Competitive. Not overpowered, but Competitive

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

Even a DREADNAUGHT Blaster has better tracking than Megapulse II + Conflag!

Amarr are the only race where Close range, such as Megapulse + Conflag has worse tracking that any non-Amarr DREADNAUGHT Close range turret

Close range Amarr weapons, such as Megapulse + Conflag, have worse tracking than even non-Amarr DREADNAUGHTS close range turrets

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

Even a DREADNAUGHT Blaster/Arty has better tracking than Megapulse II + Conflag!

Close range Amarr weapons, such as Megapulse + Conflag, have worse tracking than even non-Amarr DREADNAUGHTS close range turrets

Close range Amarr weapons, such as Megapulse + Conflag, have worse tracking than even non-Amarr DREADNAUGHTS close range turrets

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

Isent your Alliance a Anti-Amarr Role Playing Alliance? LOL

We want Amarr to be competitive - not OMGWTFBBQ

We want Amarr to be competitive - not OMGWTFBBQ

Isent your Alliance a Anti-Amarr Role Playing Alliance? LOL

Domi DPS of 1272!

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

New Amarr players and also any players with 18+ charisma - REMAKE your char unless you know what you are doing.

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

New Amarr players and also any players with 18+ charisma - REMAKE your char unless you know what you are doing.

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

New Amarr players and also any players with 18+ charisma - REMAKE your char unless you know what you are doing.

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

New Amarr players and also any players with 18+ charisma - REMAKE your char unless you know what you are doing.

Worst Range for long range fightsWorst tracking for close rangeWorst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp shipsUse most capWorst fitting reqs

Minmatar Massive Damage boost, making Republic EMP ammo OMG

Ask them why their own ships are able to track better than Amarr?

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs