Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 40 50 60 .. 64 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
The Shamen
The Smog
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 12:38:00 -
[61]
Fely, you made a typo. You said you were unemployed, i think you meant unemployable.
|
sapanda1102222
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 12:38:00 -
[62]
Just reading all that was enjoyable. Amarr look cool.
|
Nabasuko Donosor
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 12:43:00 -
[63]
Signed by a 100% Amarr player here
|
Moghydin
Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 12:45:00 -
[64]
/signed
Thanks for all the work you've done with the figures.
I won't go that deep as I don't have time to break down all data and options (and this work was done by the OP already), but from the "birds eye" point of view there are some obvious problems with Amarr:
1) Fixed damage type (EM damage type is the most tanked in Eve, seconded only by Thermal - how ironic). Greater base damage don't compensate for the disadvantage of having only 2 damage types, and the most tanked ones too.
2) Amarr don't have "The Ship" in any class. Ceptors - Crow, Taranis, Claw HACs - Cerberus, Vagabond, Ishtar Recons - Lachessis, Huginn, Rook Assault frigates - Ishkur, Harpy (sniper frig), Amarr assault frigs are pretty much useless for the lack of med slots Interdictors - Sabre, Flycatcher This is not the full list and the OP already did a great work with battleships, but you see the trend; there's not a single Amarr ship that could be best in its class. Recons were, but they got killed with the NOS nerf.
Amarr still have problems with cap, problems with damage type and problems with EW and tackling for the lack of mid-slots (Retribution is an extreme example - give it another mid slot to fit at least a scrambler, take either 1 high or 1 low).
After all there's only one reason to fly Amarr ships - they look cool and they use lasers (space, lasers - sounds good).
Press alt+F4 to reduce lag |
Kain De'Stroi
Epic.
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 12:45:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Felysta Sandorn
The Argument: Amarr are hailed as being the 'DPS Race'
[
Wha??
-------- Boost Amarr and I will conquer the Universe - you been warned |
speedek
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 13:05:00 -
[66]
They even gave us less frigs than all other races
|
thisiswrong
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 13:14:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Vitrael Way to not take optimal, falloff, or tracking into account in your DPS analysis.
And resistance.
|
thisiswrong
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 13:19:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Scav Silver I'll have to argue some of your fittings for BS, but truelly the point was made..
Amarr DPS= Urban Myth Amarr Tank= Urban Myth Amarr CAP= FACT! Amarr DO run out of CAP in a flash..
CCP Idea of Ballance= "Smokin' the Good Sh't"
People who started playing before the damage nerf knows this. People who started playing after the damage nerf have only read the backstory/ship description and are ignorant.
Fact is, amarr only have ONE ship bonus. The cap use bonus was there when lasers was uber, now they suck and the cap use bonus is useless. Its been uhh well over a year since RMR launched, I wonder how long it will take CCP DEVS to either REALIZE the errors of their ways or to LISTEN to their amarr players.
|
Asestorian
Domination.
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 13:38:00 -
[69]
It's interesting to see these numbers. I do agree that Amarr feel broken, and this analysis does show somewhat why this is. They are just average at everything.
That said, data like this can't substitute for ingame reality. We do have plenty of ships that work quite well. The Abaddon plated up is actually a very good ship, especially in a gang. It can take a stupid amount of damage, and lay down the hurt quite well. This is a "proper" Amarr ship really. However, the fact is that in this situation you need something like two cap injectors just to keep your guns running is a bit of a problem. And as for active tanking.. lol.
My main issue with Amarr ships though is in the cruiser area. We just don't have any ships there worth flying in my opinion. I'm gunnery specialised, and I find my options a little lacking. Omen? Dies if you look at it, and the range advantage is lost because it's too difficult to fit speed mods onto it alongside guns that deal any damage. Maller is a bait ship, and nothing more really. It's damage is actually better than the Omen if drones aren't factored in, but it suffers even more from being slow. With cruiser sized guns it's difficult to use the range advantage like you can with the battleships. Zealot? Meh. It's alright I suppose, but if I've got missile skills I'd take the Sacrilege.
And I agree that tackling with the Crusader is a pain. I need to fill every one of my lowslots with cap relays in order to keep my MWD and scrambler running alongside my guns, and I have maxed out cap skills. This means I sacrifice a lot of potential extra speed or damage, and if I do manage to get hit I'm pretty screwed as I don't have space for any buffers. Crusader may be the fastest in theory, but it makes bugger all difference in practice when it comes to it's intended role.
In my opinion overall as a race we are lacking somewhat, but with some good ships in there. The real issue is a lack of direction, especially with the Laser based ships.
I'd also like to see the Apoc have a proper use. For some reason I really like that ship, but I'd be an idiot to use it outside of a fleet battle (and then I'd only use it because it's cap lasts the longest, is slightly easier to fit than a Geddon, and less expensive than an Abaddon). The Navy Issue could do with a look at too. Such a shiny ship, and so useless.
---
MOZO
|
ShardowRhino
Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 13:38:00 -
[70]
your shooting yourself in the head here with your argument. first you give the Raven additional DPS by fitting weapons its unlikely to fit and if they do fit will unlikely be able to use. Then you turn around and say that the raven doesn't require any cap to fire its weapons,yet those 2 guns you slap on to buff your argument require cap to fire. A raven is strained when it comes to grid/cpu and low slots when its trying to fit those 2 guns. If we go with t2 torps then theres no chance in hell of having 3 damage mods and the cpu/grid to fit 2 medium t1 hybrids + average tank. Your going to need perfect stats for something like you suggest could be common place for a raven.
You also sweep the scorp under the rug and say its alright that it is by far the weakest BS who's bonus only applies if you forgo having a tank to defend yourself with. But that doesn't fit your argument so lets sweep it under the rug,right? why should the caldari pilots have a t1 bs that is a viable combat option when compared to its competition?!
To me it sounds like your fluffing up the parts that help your argument as opposed to giving us the straight info. Doing such will likely not effect the crowd the way you want it to.
Hell, i say give the scorp a combat bonus or give it additional midslots so it can actually use its bonus and have a chance of living through a few rounds.
|
|
Firkragg
Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 13:46:00 -
[71]
Just remember EFT != EVE. basically its not all about the dps (for example a neutron gank domi isnt the most fun thing to fit in the world, grid alone limits it.
|
Delene
Amarr InNova Tech Inc Combined Planetary Union
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 13:49:00 -
[72]
100% Specialised Amarr char here.
As said, the way to fix amarr ships is either to give them way more cap to play with or reducing the cap usage on lasers and give the ships real bonuses, not just 'can fit lasers' ones..
/signed
|
Felysta Sandorn
Caldari System-Lords Insurgency
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 14:05:00 -
[73]
Originally by: ShardowRhino your shooting yourself in the head here with your argument. first you give the Raven additional DPS by fitting weapons its unlikely to fit and if they do fit will unlikely be able to use. Then you turn around and say that the raven doesn't require any cap to fire its weapons,yet those 2 guns you slap on to buff your argument require cap to fire. A raven is strained when it comes to grid/cpu and low slots when its trying to fit those 2 guns. If we go with t2 torps then theres no chance in hell of having 3 damage mods and the cpu/grid to fit 2 medium t1 hybrids + average tank. Your going to need perfect stats for something like you suggest could be common place for a raven.
Adding two hybrid guns isn't really the same, cap wise, as running 8 Mega Pulse lasers. The fact of the matter is, running guns on the Apoc, despite it's massive bonuses to cap and laser cap useage, it still runs out of cap after a short while (as said in the analysis). The Raven, even if you add two hybrid guns, still will never run out of cap just from firing. This automatically makes the Raven infinately better than the Apoc.
Originally by: ShardowRhino You also sweep the scorp under the rug and say its alright that it is by far the weakest BS who's bonus only applies if you forgo having a tank to defend yourself with. But that doesn't fit your argument so lets sweep it under the rug,right? why should the caldari pilots have a t1 bs that is a viable combat option when compared to its competition?!
The Scorpion has bonuses that are nothing to do with combat, and therefore it is viable to ignore it. A similar comparison would be a Blackbird and a Caracal, where one is built to DPS and another is built to jam. The Scorpion fills a non-DPS combat role extremely well, where it uses Electronic Warfare to benefit the entire fleet in PvP. It was 'swept under the rug' as you say, as it is generally more useful than the other tier 1 BS due to it's EW capabilities. At the end of the day, if you put a Scorp in a ring with another ship, the Scorp will probably win due to it's EW potential. Sure, it would be a long slow fight, but the EW is the purpose of the Scorpion, not the DPS.
Originally by: ShardowRhino To me it sounds like your fluffing up the parts that help your argument as opposed to giving us the straight info. Doing such will likely not effect the crowd the way you want it to.
I've provided the facts with the same fittings on every BS in the game to provide evidence as to why Amarr ships are underpowered. If you don't believe these facts, do the maths for yourself and you'll find them to be true! Amarr are below average at every function, and completely bottom in terms of Capacitor useage, where all other races have certain strengths and weaknesses. If you cannot see this from the analysis I have provided, then you need to look harder.
Originally by: ShardowRhino Hell, i say give the scorp a combat bonus or give it additional midslots so it can actually use its bonus and have a chance of living through a few rounds.
Like I said, the Scorpion is not a combat ship, it's bonuses are more useful to PvP than any other BS in the game.
Latest Video, Click Here!
|
Golan Trevize
Amarr Faderhuset
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 14:12:00 -
[74]
Halleluljah....
Amarr specced for 4,5 years... The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
|
ShardowRhino
Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 14:13:00 -
[75]
after reviewing the OPs info i noticed a few things
1. he mentions that all caldari BSes do not need cap to fire. Last i checked the Rokh only had 2 missle slots. wonder what the other weapons would be...wonder what they need to fire as well.
2. Caldari BSes are all the lowest damage dealers. Of course he fluffs up the raven's dps by adding weapons that won't be used or simply will not fit in a t2 enviroment,which lets face it, most people are going to use t2 asap.
3. poor little ammar ships end up being the moderate ships, they dont have the caldari curse of having the lowest dps. Yet at the same time they don't have the weakest defenses that gallantee apparently get to offset their dps uberness. From what I'm seeing is a complaint for having a solid line of ships,sprinkled with some spin on the truth. Being able to run your tank for a measly 50seconds more then the opponent is definitely something to scoff at. At least until your target pops and you live to collect the killmail. But that doesn't seem to fit the complaint so lets not pay any attention to that.
So basically what his thread proves is that caldari are condemned to be on the defensive and cursed with the lowest dps. Not exactly fear inspiring Battleship designs. So how exactly is it bad to have solid,BALANCED battleships for all 3 tiers?
What they should do is give each empire a BS that can sponge like crazy but has no offensive capability over that of a ****ed off kitten. Then give each empire a BS that is the damage dealer of the group but has the weakest defenses of the 3. Then give each empire a BS that is balanced offensively and defensively. That way caldari players can choose to have a ship that is on par with other the rest on the offense instead of being purely defensive as the OP shows us.
|
Felysta Sandorn
Caldari System-Lords Insurgency
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 14:13:00 -
[76]
To address the issues of tracking, optimal, and falloff, I have added another addendum to the first series of posts:
Originally by: Felysta Sandorn EDIT 2: More Responses...
To everyone that's talking about optimal range, tracking, and falloff... You may or may not remember this dev blog that addressed these issues, as Amarr tracking was really poor compared to other races. You can see from the graph that lasers still suffer greatly at short ranges compared with other turret based weapons. Amarr tracking (even after the buff) is still sub standard to other race's tracking, and although greater ranges are possible with pulse lasers in comparison with blasters or autocannons, the cons still outweigh the pros here, being worse capacitor use (as discussed), worse tracking (the start of the graph), worse falloff (notice how on the lasers the graph starts to drop rapidly every 2km), and the inability to change from EM damage (as discussed in the devblog).
Latest Video, Click Here!
|
Kasak Black
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 14:13:00 -
[77]
OP 100% Signed.
|
Bob Veers
Amarr Caelli-Merced INC.
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 14:14:00 -
[78]
/signed
|
Felysta Sandorn
Caldari System-Lords Insurgency
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 14:29:00 -
[79]
Originally by: ShardowRhino after reviewing the OPs info i noticed a few things
1. he mentions that all caldari BSes do not need cap to fire. Last i checked the Rokh only had 2 missle slots. wonder what the other weapons would be...wonder what they need to fire as well.
I addressed this issue a number of times throughout my analysis. Particularly in the sniping section towards the end, where the Rokh really shows it's colours! Like I said many times though, running 8 hybrid turrets is nothing in comparison to running 8 lasers. Especially on the Abaddon which doesn't have a bonus to laser cap useage.
Originally by: ShardowRhino 2. Caldari BSes are all the lowest damage dealers. Of course he fluffs up the raven's dps by adding weapons that won't be used or simply will not fit in a t2 enviroment,which lets face it, most people are going to use t2 asap.
Torpedoes are getting a massive buff soon, and all the fittings I've shown do fit on ships, even if they need a fitting mod or two. If you want to contest fitting though, please refer to the sniping section again where a minimum of two Reactor Control Units are required on each Amarr ship. This is of course assuming that every pilot flying these ships has level 5 in all skills... In reality a very small minority of people can actually use t2 RCUs, and you actually need 3-4 on every Amarr ship in order to compete. Even then, the cap use of Tachyons means you can only fire for a couple of minutes before just becoming a lump of golden metal in the sky.
Originally by: ShardowRhino 3. poor little ammar ships end up being the moderate ships, they dont have the caldari curse of having the lowest dps. Yet at the same time they don't have the weakest defenses that gallantee apparently get to offset their dps uberness. From what I'm seeing is a complaint for having a solid line of ships,sprinkled with some spin on the truth. Being able to run your tank for a measly 50seconds more then the opponent is definitely something to scoff at. At least until your target pops and you live to collect the killmail. But that doesn't seem to fit the complaint so lets not pay any attention to that.
The fact is that other ships have a lot of variety in comparison to Amarr ships. The Raven has the ability to deal any damage type on top of it's tremendous tank, and the Torp buff coming soon. Gallente ships can easily fit for tank or gank and still be better than their Amarr equivilent. Minmatar ships, as shown (particularly the Maelstrom and Tempest) can fit for both tank AND gank using a shield tank to free up lowslots for damage mods.
Originally by: ShardowRhino So basically what his thread proves is that caldari are condemned to be on the defensive and cursed with the lowest dps. Not exactly fear inspiring Battleship designs. So how exactly is it bad to have solid,BALANCED battleships for all 3 tiers?
The Raven has always been, and continues to be the best mission boat in game due to it's versatility and consistency. Amarr ships have neither of these attributes. The Scorpion is also easily the most useful BS in game with it's bonuses to jam, and the ability to take at least 4 hostile ships out on it's own. The Rokh can also easily out-range any other BS.
Originally by: ShardowRhino What they should do is give each empire a BS that can sponge like crazy but has no offensive capability over that of a ****ed off kitten. Then give each empire a BS that is the damage dealer of the group but has the weakest defenses of the 3. Then give each empire a BS that is balanced offensively and defensively. That way caldari players can choose to have a ship that is on par with other the rest on the offense instead of being purely defensive as the OP shows us.
The versatility of most ships in game allow this to happen in any hull, but Amarr ships provide a below average boat in all circumstances and excel at nothing, unlike all other races which generally will have strong points and weak points.
Latest Video, Click Here!
|
Torco
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 14:38:00 -
[80]
excellent read! very good and hopefully the DEVS now see that Amarr ships don'T need just an oomph but an OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMPH
|
|
Madla Mafia
The Dead Man's Hand
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 14:39:00 -
[81]
Great thread, I hope CCP notices this thread sometime.... -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amarr - getting screwed since 2005. |
Arachidamia
The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 14:47:00 -
[82]
Amarr are perfectly balanced really... until lasers enter the equation.
Cap problems, damage type problems, fitting problems.... they all stem from lasers. Hopefully lasers get beefed up a bit... but I really can't see it happening
|
Hugh Ruka
Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 14:49:00 -
[83]
I love the Raven damage setup.
So you are using 3 damage mods and Rage torps, but forgot the 3 target painters needed to get maximum efficiency. Thats 6 slots total to get the damage you state.
You can substitute them for faction torps, but then you need to count isk and you get less damage.
rage torps cost around 400 isk a piece on average. faction torps are 2000+ isk a piece.
care to update your tank setups with sustained damage efficiency numbers WITHOUT cap boosters counted in ? thanks
Originally by: Aravel Thon
Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox...............
I am so so terribly sorry...
|
Alexace
Gallente Bright New Dawn Artificial Intelligence.
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 14:54:00 -
[84]
Signed.
Please CCP, fix Amarr. a %50-%60 reduction to laser cap use or as a role bonus, then give a real bonus like tracking, optimal range, or whatever. Anything is better than a bonus that has to be used to simply operate lasers. I just started training up Amarr BSes and they are simply unusable untill BS 4, otherwise you have to dedicate 3 or 4 modules to cap alone.
I don't have any problem with amarr being inflexible, but they have to do something well. Thay don't tank well, they don't gank well. They have absolutely no EWAR. They suck. BOOST AMARR!!!!!!!!!!!
|
DarK
STK Scientific
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 14:54:00 -
[85]
Lack of variety in weapons systems is the problem. Only so many flavours of tanking and lasers possible.
|
ShardowRhino
Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 14:58:00 -
[86]
You suggest that the scorp should not be considered a combat ship, yet all other t1 BSes are combat orientated. Throwing out the idea that its the same difference as a blackbird and a caracal is wrong as every race has 1 ew based cruiser,1 miner and 2 combat orientated designs. Yet the caldari are the only ones that have tier 1 bs that cannot fight its way out of a paperbag. Either give it a combat bonu s instead or create a BS ew class and give us a combat orientated tier1 BS. Until such is done Caldari can argue that we in fact have the weakest BSes.
Sure in a 1 on 1 fight where the scorp can actually apply its bonus, it might win in the long run. However when it comes to a fleet fight its going to lose. Either it goes with EW and gets called as primary which it will not survive or it can go with a tank but be completely useless offensively. Once the opposing fleet realizes that its a joke they will call out a new primary. So the caldari end up with a bs that is handicapped one way or another,meanwhile poor amar do not.
As for the damage output of the ships,you ignore critical hits. While it may very well be completely random it must be factored in one way or another. To compare static offensive figures against those that can get a massive boost to damage leaves the argument lacking. While you may think your numbers look good on paper and therefore prove that the raven beats your tier2 bs, the reality of the matter is it proves nothing. You suggest that your numbers are solid but that would only be true if torps could get critical hits or if your guns did not.
Also are you factoring in the damage that is lost due to the nature of the rage torps? I know I had to fit a painter on my raven in order to get full damage against another BS. When i shut the painter off I was doing less damage then t1 ammo. IF a raven is going to fit a target painter then its tank is going to be weakened,therefore you need to readjust its defensive value in turn.
Of course if you try to argue purely the maximums for each ship in terms of offense and defense but ignore what they can truely fit at one time,the argument is pointless. If i cannot fit my maximum offensive value as well as my maximum defensive value then the idea that ammar lose all around is a weak argument. Without a complete ship to actually go over, your just coughing up numbers that may or may not mean anything in the end.
If your only able to argue maximum value that are isolated and un*****ble, then your wasting time. The fact that there are going to be differences from 1 raven to the next means 1 may be stronger in one area then the other. It also ignores players' skills and rigs chosen or if one doesn't have any. So while not having the best offensive or best defensive values might seem bad to you, it might not mean a damn thing in the field.
Just like most things that look good on paper, the reality of the matter is far different. In a game like eve with its vast amount of customization and time based skills in addition to its monetary system, trying to point at maximum values means little to nothing. The fact that your numbers show the ammar ships as balanced proves to me that they are likely to be the best bet in most situations.
In all of the games that I have played,all the military history that I have read, one thing comes up consistently. Having a military,organization and down to individual units that is balanced tends to have the best chances at winning. It has no glaring weaknesses to exploit. Also if it does not have a massive advantage then no single aspect of it can lull its user into a false sense of security. A false sense of security due to a well known advantage can be turned into an exploitable weakness. Balance also gives the best spread of options while specialization limits such.
is balance truely a weakness? To you perhaps. However I truely disagree and any fan of strategy will likely agree with me.
|
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 15:04:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Vitrael Way to not take optimal, falloff, or tracking into account in your DPS analysis.
All lasers typically have worse fall-off than their counterparts.
Pulse lasers have the worst tracking of the short-range guns. Tracking is quite important at close range.
The optimal range of beam lasers compares badly with other long-range guns, especially when you take into account their poor fall-off.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 15:07:00 -
[88]
Just read teh OP. CRAP CARAP CARAP.
Totally unrealistic setups, Completely forgetiing that not all ships wil be able to fit all those damage mods. Typhoon for example you will almost NEVER see it with more than dual 425mm and siege and NO damage mod.
Also 60/40/40/40 resists? LOL are you nuts? I would not even undock if at least ALL my resists are above 60%
Second forget T2 close range ammo, reality is people use the Navy ammos because of no drawbacks.
T
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 15:08:00 -
[89]
Projectile weapons work quite well in PvP when fitted on ships like the Apocalypse and the Maller. When was the last time anyone saw lasers being fitted on a non-Amarrian ship?
Likewise, you see a lot of Arbitrator (and variant) pilots fitting sensor dampeners, despite that ship getting a tracking disruptor bonus. When was the last time you saw a Lachesis or Rook mainly fitting tracking disruptors? Sure, the dampeners are getting a nerf, but guess what - so are the disruptors!
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Plutonian
Plutonian Shore
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 15:09:00 -
[90]
Yeah... you're kinda losing me on the issue now. Which is pretty amazing since I was behind an Amarr boost (focus) before, but now I'm not. If you'd met the arguments put forward directly, without bias, I'd have no choice to see your point. But if you have to skew results, then things with Amarr aren't as bad as I thought. Give 'em a slight boost and call it a day.
One quick question though:
Originally by: Felysta Sandorn
ORLY?: Yes, really... It's a well known and published fact that there are fewer Amarr players than any other race in New Eden. This is because the Amarr race is broken! Fix the issues detailed here, and maybe you'll start to see some more Amarr specialised players.
I'd like to view the source of this argument. Where are these figures located?
BTW: If you're really unhappy with the EW, I believe the Minmatar race would be more than happy to trade. Your tracking disruptors for our target painters. Deal?
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 40 50 60 .. 64 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |