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Inmate 854	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:00:00 - [1561] Edited by: Inmate 854 on 12/12/2008 14:02:31 Where do we go from here? I really don't know. A game economy isn't anything like the real world one, things happen a lot faster in a game, but some mechanisms are necessarily the same. I wonder that one way of stabilizing things would be what the real world governments do, they get into the commercial part of things. Even in the USA they have started to nationalize banks, imagine that! The cure here for us who wish to continue to play is not that radical, but similar. We need stability! Can we get the NPC corporation back as trading and selling partners? I think that would provide the best way to provide stable prices and uphold a functioning market model. In short, this would both allow and provide a situation where we could continue our gameplay. Absolutely Not! They last thing CCP should do is do anything to prop up the market. I think its BS that the banks in the US are getting a bailout and providing NPC sell orders for any moon mins would be just as bad. Will prices rise? Probably yes aside from the imediate kneejerk reaction to the news. Time will tell. But as someone who runs a legitimate POS reaction this is exciting news. I imagine fuel cost will go down (less fake reactor POS's sucking up fuel) and with a lower supply of legitimate T2 componenets prices and profits to increase. More reason to fight over moons for the POS war people, more action for traders, more reasons to try out alchemy, more consequence to losing stuff via PVP. All these are good things IMO. Sucks that this exploit happened, but I think the aftermath could make Eve a more interesting place for all. Edit to add one more plus, GTC price in isk may fall due to 70 less buyers per month
Ivan Kinsikor Amarr Void Engineers Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:01:00 - [1562] Edited by: Ivan Kinsikor on 12/12/2008 14:01:34 [tinfoilhat] 4 years ago is quite a while, and CCP employees skirting the rules to take advantage of things in game isn't exactly unheard of. So dare I ask, what if the person who saw that exploit report buried it and decided to use it to their own advantage? [/tinfoilhat] Now if CCP would just get rid of GTC sales, the Eve economy will be great! ---------------------------------------- *****es don't know 'bout my nano'd Titan ----------------------------------------
Valron Xizor The Xizor Cartel	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:01:00 - [1563] Originally by: Kaptain Kruncher I think it's awesome! I'm in this game for the complexity, what better than an old fashioned, far-reaching scandal? I can't wait to see the effect on the market, it's gonna be wild and fun. I'm new to invention and manufacturing, but have been a miner since the beginning, an upsidedown T2 market has got to mean some isk making opportunities. Most of the time you just read about this stuff in the "fake news" in you IGB, now it is here for real. Sounds like CCP will sort it out. Thay have already started by telling us, and I'm sure the rest is on the way. Oh, and so I don't have to put my asbestos underpants on- I realize that my Main and Alts are only about a year old, I don't have the massive time and effort that many of you older players have put into your operations. So for me it is a minor thing, too you all it probably has more sting. Ah good old school boy mentality. It's like when the the fuel protests brought our country to a halt a few years ago... There was something awsome about the chaos even though we couldn't drive anywhere :D
EnslaverOfMinmatar Yarsk Hunters DeaDSpace Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:03:00 - [1564] If you were exploiting, contract all your ferrogel to me so CCP won't ban you since you won't have any ferrogel. Hah! uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ
Penthux Amarr Nimbus Corporation Orange Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:08:00 - [1565] I want to see a list of banned players. I want to see who's been screwing us. I want to know who is to blame. I want satisfaction and justification for the real euros I pay to play this game. http://www.penthux.net/gfx/signas/penthux.jpg
Fifinella Caldari Fringe Exploration And Salvage Trust FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:15:00 - [1566] Originally by: Penthux I want to see who's been screwing us. If you don't know that yourself, might I suggest you start cutting down your alcohol intake?
moppie machina	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:18:00 - [1567] Has anyone noticed the many type-II BPO's up for sale in the 'sell orders' section of eve-forum the last week and a half or so? like: HULK BPO [by BoB] and Huginn BPO [also by BoB] and many more,.. i've seen covops cloak-II, Anathema, Helios.. etc etc CCP.. shouldn't these and all type-2 bpo's be frozen untill they have been cleared ?
Typhena The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:24:00 - [1568] This is getting even more serious ... And .. nothing from CCP yet .. --- Sig Under Construction
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:27:00 - [1569] Originally by: Typhena This is getting even more serious ... And .. nothing from CCP yet .. And what should they write? That they are throwing everything they have into this investigation? And that they will inform us as soon as they have new results? Oh wait ... they already said that ...
Atharax	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:31:00 - [1570] Originally by: Inmate 854 Absolutely Not! They last thing CCP should do is do anything to prop up the market. I think its BS that the banks in the US are getting a bailout and providing NPC sell orders for any moon mins would be just as bad. Will prices rise? Probably yes aside from the imediate kneejerk reaction to the news. Time will tell. But as someone who runs a legitimate POS reaction this is exciting news. I imagine fuel cost will go down (less fake reactor POS's sucking up fuel) and with a lower supply of legitimate T2 componenets prices and profits to increase. More reason to fight over moons for the POS war people, more action for traders, more reasons to try out alchemy, more consequence to losing stuff via PVP. All these are good things IMO. Sucks that this exploit happened, but I think the aftermath could make Eve a more interesting place for all. Edit to add one more plus, GTC price in isk may fall due to 70 less buyers per month Hello Inmate (and you're one alt also but I wont flame you for that) I made a suggestion, I might have been wrong on the solution. But I never suggested that moon materials should be offerend by NPC corps, neither that they be purchased. Instead that the model from the early years of the game be used, that involved standard minerals from asteroids, tech 1 ships and modules, and various tradegoods. Anyhow, fact remains, that we need stability here. It would be best for all involved.
Fifinella Caldari Fringe Exploration And Salvage Trust FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:31:00 - [1571] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Typhena This is getting even more serious ... And .. nothing from CCP yet .. And what should they write? That they are throwing everything they have into this investigation? And that they will inform us as soon as they have new results? Oh wait ... they already said that ... Don't waste your breath, Typhena isn't actually reading this thread, only posting into it.
BogWopit Amarr The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:32:00 - [1572] say this looks like a neat bandwagon, I think I'll join it, NAP it, and blob ccp with it.
EVE CORE	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:36:00 - [1573] with everything aside, I'm hoping that with the fall of exploit mining this will make moon mining more lucrative & worthwhile for the small corps/lone wolfs out there that want to try thier hand at it.
Orosinii Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:38:00 - [1574] Fun times ahead in the T2 market. CCP tbh this is your fault to allow such a massive flaw in game mechanics to remain in the system for 4 years (unless it was planned) is terrible. If however this was part of a masterplan, whilst the colonisation of space took place since the inception of POS warfare it is genius. Regardless of what happens, I log into eve for fun. This has certainly made the game more entertaining and if it brings back an increase to T2 prices it may also (via greed) get rid of the superblob element of eve that we currently have. Yes it is galling to realise that for the past 4 years there have been various players who have bucked and cheated the system. But its out there in the open now and as long as CCP investigate every alt corp and trace it back to every owner then I agree with their bans and the way they are handling it. However if they are just punishing those who have not been too bright about it - well thats not particularly fair. Punishing the stupid should only be done if the devious also get punished too. All in all I think this coming to light will have a positive effect on eve. The market will stabilise and T2 prices will revert to being somewhere close to where they belong. Easy isk will be harder and greed should fragment some of the larger powerblocs. Pirate loot will now mean more and the reliance on Lvl 4 missions will hopefully dissipate as manufacturing takes hold as a viable carreer again. All those that are moaning - grow up, build a bridge and get over it! Its a game ... this does not stop you logging on to have fun. If it does then maybe you need to partake in some RL. On a plus - well done CCP for not brushing this under the carpet. Just do it right this time. Oros Anti-Pirate
SemiCharmed Shaolin Legacy	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:40:00 - [1575] Yeah yeah this is all fine and dandy but why don't you take macro miners this seriously? -------------------------------------------- Remember Kids, Only YOU Can Prevent Fourm fires.
Inmate 854	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:47:00 - [1576] Edited by: Inmate 854 on 12/12/2008 14:47:36 Originally by: Atharax Hello Inmate (and you're one alt also but I wont flame you for that) I made a suggestion, I might have been wrong on the solution. But I never suggested that moon materials should be offerend by NPC corps, neither that they be purchased. Instead that the model from the early years of the game be used, that involved standard minerals from asteroids, tech 1 ships and modules, and various tradegoods. Anyhow, fact remains, that we need stability here. It would be best for all involved. Sorry, I misunderstood your suggestion. But IMO the only thing we need to stabilize this is alchemy. It might actually worth doing now. Stability = boring. I like my RL finances to be stable. Internet spacehships...I could care less about stability. NPC trading and the tech 1 production stuff is still here. Or did it used to be different? My main only goes back to Revelations.
Mari deMedici	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:47:00 - [1577] Next week T2 mods are costing 10x more than now! I love it. Invention will be profitable again and named T1 will be FOTM again!
Daoi Sith	Posted - 2008.12.12 14:57:00 - [1578] Originally by: Smith Whats the point of naming and shaming if the players have been banned...it not like they are going to be involved in this game anymore? haha dont be obtuse. they were prob alts and posting the names and corps will open the floodgates to who the real perpetrators were/are. obvious POS exploiter is obvious
Ratchman	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:00:00 - [1579] Firstly, CCP do have a good defence. The economy is very complex in EVE, and things like these could easily exist without ever being noticed. Look at how many frauds and scams exist in the real world. Enron were bluffing everyone to the tune of billions for years, and I heard today that another hedge fund manager has been defrauding investors of $50 billion, and he was operating what seems to me like a basic pyramid scheme (but with better maths), paying off investors with the money from new investors. The real world economy is extremely fragile, far more than any of us would like to admit, and an awful lot is taken on trust and confidence. Why should EVE be any different? The other thing in their defence is logic. All those people involved were almost certainly using their fraudulently earned ISK to buy timecards, which deny CCP actual physical money. So if they find out people have been avoiding paying them (or denying them by the action of their fraud), they are going to take very swift action. If the amount turns out to be significant, maybe they would even consider legal action (although that could be a legal minefield, being a new area with little precedent). I can't think of a stronger motivation for a company to take action. Their existence as an organsisation is built on what they earn, so they will pay very close attention to it. As for the impact the scandal will have, it will probably have some, but nowhere near as much as some people are claiming. The market will absorb a lot of the damage. What will push prices up is if people start panicking and start stockpiling T2 sips and modules, reducing availability and increasing demand. I am interested in seeing if any gaps appear in the political landscape of EVE as a result of these players being removed. If they are all in one corp, or a smattering of corps, it could leave a hole in 0.0 territory, so one only has to keep an eye on any territory that suddenly becomes available, or where there is a sudden flare up of activity where people rush to claim it. However, if they are spread across a lot of corps, we may not even notice their absence.
SemiCharmed Shaolin Legacy	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:02:00 - [1580] Originally by: Daoi Sith Originally by: Smith Whats the point of naming and shaming if the players have been banned...it not like they are going to be involved in this game anymore? haha dont be obtuse. they were prob alts and posting the names and corps will open the floodgates to who the real perpetrators were/are. obvious POS exploiter is obvious I think there names should be told. We have a right to know who's "cheating" and cheats should be punished even on there main accounts inert evil face here Plus we know to keep an eye out for them, they have done it once as we know... and they will do it again... once a cheat, always a cheat. -------------------------------------------- Remember Kids, Only YOU Can Prevent Fourm fires.
Ironnight Caldari x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:09:00 - [1581] I dont know, Im starting to feel like I would be better off investing my subscription money in an Islandic bank, first the whole T20 thing, CCP knew and did nothing, until someone forced them to by leaking the info. Now we see them banning 70 accounts for something they knew about for awhile as well, pretty damn sad. They're like 'oh **** son, its a trap ' Doomsday
Tobias Lee Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:10:00 - [1582] Buying game time cards doesn't deny ccp any money someone pays for the card to gain isk, probly someone trying to buy ships to keep up with the scammers.
Cheeba Don Ihatalo Navy Ihatalo Cartel	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:12:00 - [1583] While the mistake should have been spotted etc etc, I do believe people should lay off CCP. Players have stupidly been suggesting CCP waste money hiring frigging accountant-types to check corp/alliance ledgers for signs of exploit abuse. The US goverment employs tens of thousands of people to do this and still this happens: 11th Dec 08 $50 bill ponzi scheme exploits and cheaters will always slip through. there's one born every minute.
Sharon Valerrii	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:12:00 - [1584] Ok, so it's been fixed, right? What was the exploit? How exactly were they using POS mechanics to gain an unfair advantage. Oh wait, how many times have we asked that question since cyno jammers & jump bridges came out? seriously tho?
Xthril Ranger hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:13:00 - [1585] Originally by: Mari deMedici Invention will be profitable again and named T1 will be FOTM again! It is just that the price difference between tech 2 items made from invention bpcs and BPOs will increase. Also , with increased prices the demand will go down. . you'll never jump alone
Jonybang	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:18:00 - [1586] I doesn't seem fair or honorable to simply BAN players for discovering an advantage in the game that CCP overlooked. Like bad weather greed is always going to be part of our existence, simply Banning players and destroying property that a group of people worked for because of an exploit that CCP introduced into the game seem's childish to me. I apologise to anyone I may have offended by this message and I hope we can all enjoy the game in the future without fear of being banned over an exploit we may not know we are using. I'm sure the Banned players probably thought the exploit they were using may have been legal as CCP introduced it into the game and they probably thought it was something put into the game to make POS maintainence easier.
Orange Faeces Minmatar THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:25:00 - [1587] Originally by: Jonybang I doesn't seem fair or honorable to simply BAN players for discovering an advantage in the game that CCP overlooked. Like bad weather greed is always going to be part of our existence, simply Banning players and destroying property that a group of people worked for because of an exploit that CCP introduced into the game seem's childish to me. I apologise to anyone I may have offended by this message and I hope we can all enjoy the game in the future without fear of being banned over an exploit we may not know we are using. I'm sure the Banned players probably thought the exploit they were using may have been legal as CCP introduced it into the game and they probably thought it was something put into the game to make POS maintainence easier. In the first half of your paragraph you talk about greed. In the second part of your paragraph you talk about ignorance of logic. See, its not reasonable to believe that moon minerals are not consumed in the production of the reaction outputs. So, greed is okay. What these players did went far beyond that into willful exploitation of an obvious programming error. Pretty simple. In other news, THE INTERNET. still wants to know all about who got the bannage. oF --- The Other Orange
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:25:00 - [1588] Originally by: Jonybang I doesn't seem fair or honorable to simply BAN players for discovering an advantage in the game that CCP overlooked. Like bad weather greed is always going to be part of our existence, simply Banning players and destroying property that a group of people worked for because of an exploit that CCP introduced into the game seem's childish to me. I apologise to anyone I may have offended by this message and I hope we can all enjoy the game in the future without fear of being banned over an exploit we may not know we are using. I'm sure the Banned players probably thought the exploit they were using may have been legal as CCP introduced it into the game and they probably thought it was something put into the game to make POS maintainence easier. Oi look! It's a troll! Didn't see that one coming. -------- Ideas for: Mining
dmxandrei R.U.S.T. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:26:00 - [1589] Originally by: Jonybang I doesn't seem fair or honorable to simply BAN players for discovering an advantage in the game that CCP overlooked. Like bad weather greed is always going to be part of our existence, simply Banning players and destroying property that a group of people worked for because of an exploit that CCP introduced into the game seem's childish to me. I apologise to anyone I may have offended by this message and I hope we can all enjoy the game in the future without fear of being banned over an exploit we may not know we are using. I'm sure the Banned players probably thought the exploit they were using may have been legal as CCP introduced it into the game and they probably thought it was something put into the game to make POS maintainence easier. of course it seems fair ... if its an exploit you get banned .... the worse thing is that its been arround for ages and who knows how much iskies theese guys produced and to what use the isk whas put to
Lord Bleu The Xizor Cartel	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:26:00 - [1590] I see people saying 'it's just a game' and though I personally don't invest a gargantuous amount of time in the game, I know people who do. For these people, eve is more than a game, much more so enough of the 'it's only a game' comments. Remove the fact that it's a game and what it boils down to is invested time. We only live once, so any time invested in anything is important. Many people take eve seriously, and thank god they do because it wouldn't be as interesting without these people out there making the news. They fight hard, work hard and all under the assumption that for the other man to win, he's got to fight and work just as hard. In this case, you have people who have been working hard, very hard and fighting battles against others who've been cheating and exploiting to such an extent that they've been able to buy all the uber kit and replenish their losses without any work at all. At least respect the fact though you may personally not have been shafted badly by this, many many have. I'm not blaming CCP, I'm blaming the idiots who pulled it off. ------- I came, I saw, I drank all the beer!

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