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MMXMMX Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:27:00 - [1591] Just kidding mode : "By 2008, the market has become completely EXPLOIT-driven, and that's where I came in," says Gu=mundsson during an Edinburgh International Festival session. "The whole economic structure has become so complex, the data so vast, that a specialist was needed." Quote from this Linkage Just kidding mode :
Skar Rynn	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:27:00 - [1592] I agree, those of us that have played this game, and for that matter LIVED it, for these past years deserves answers. The question of HOW THE F$%@ do they have that much STUFF is answered apparently but not how CCP is gunna fix that or who we in honor have fought in the past and lost to unfair advantages, I am not complaining just saying :P First off. THAT STUFF IS HARD TO GET for us average players not in mega alliances, maybe now CCP will realize this. Secondly. Give us someone to point the finger at, if it has been 4 years and it has been exploited that long than a severe imbalance of power was gained by certain large entities providing them with the space and assetts they now enjoy. Third and last, dunt take away my t2 stuff its mine :) if ya do I'll fly to iceland and take your cookies!!!!
Owin Forsyth	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:36:00 - [1593] Originally by: SemiCharmed Yeah yeah this is all fine and dandy but why don't you take macro miners this seriously? I guess weÆll have to wait for someone to go to one of those other sites that have forums and state that he was a Macro Miner with 10 accounts and he made 100 trillion ISK. And then proceed to tell how even corp mates reported him over and over and nothing was ever done except that the oneÆs reporting had their petitions closed with nothing more than a canned response. It seems that only scandals get any attention these days. So, make Macro Mining a scandal somehow and they'll finally pay attention.
Atharax	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:38:00 - [1594] Edited by: Atharax on 12/12/2008 15:42:56 Originally by: Inmate 854 Sorry, I misunderstood your suggestion. But IMO the only thing we need to stabilize this is alchemy. It might actually worth doing now. Stability = boring. I like my RL finances to be stable. Internet spacehships...I could care less about stability. NPC trading and the tech 1 production stuff is still here. Or did it used to be different? My main only goes back to Revelations. Hello again Yes it used to be quiet different, I didnt even intend to say it would be permanent, only for a transition time so that we players can have some faith in the game and go around with business as usual without having guys expliting the consequences of the exploit. This is a lot bigger than the one about the T2 BPO given for free, that was considered a major one back then. Yes also research used to be different, I had my research agents did all the silly quests for them. I still have piles of planetary vehicles and plutonium and super conductors stacked in certain stations. In the end I got nothing. But all that pales to this thing with the POS exploit, and the spinoff from that one, the past is entirely insignificant! Because the money from this exploit have financed entire alliances and so created the political map we see in the game today. Then there's been wild trading on things ranging from BPO's to moon materials days perhaps a week before the crackdown. So what the heck happened, was it a leak, just a loose mouth warbling to certain ears? There is no doubt that certain people knew. So as a consequence to that and to reestablish faith in the game, something must be done. If my suggestion isn't the best, I hope someone comes up with another idea and put it into the game preferably right now. The idea of once again having the NPC corporations as trade partners would at least give us breathing time to move on, and stability in the transition time. And as a side note, CCP have my full respect for taking action, it seem it was really late indeed, yet I am uncertain they have the guts to do what is needed here. Only some halfbaked measures and some handful players banned isn't enough. As we have seen in this thread, there are some who are out for blood. The suggestion of one Execution squad was one such. Lord Bleau said something important here: Quote: Remove the fact that it's a game and what it boils down to is invested time. We only live once, so any time invested in anything is important. Yes I have a silly amount of time invested here in Eve, I want to continue to play, for that to be possible the damages of this POS exploit need to be dealt with. While we are given the temporary stability, my suggestion or something better that someone else come up with, we can play on while CCP get to work in peace, check what corps and alliances were up to before the leak happened, to see what was happening and done before certain players got cold feet had started to cover their tracks. And after that we can have a rollback.
Orange Faeces Minmatar THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:45:00 - [1595] Originally by: dmxandrei of course it seems fair ... if its an exploit you get banned .... the worse thing is that its been arround for ages and who knows how much iskies theese guys produced and to what use the isk whas put to This brings up the whole issue of isk laundering, no? If one of the offending chars sent 100B to one of their GTC-driven alts, CCP can track that easily. If on the otherhand one of the chars spent 100B on ships, put them up on market in some remote location for 1 isk, then had a GTC-driven alt buy them, insure them and suicide them, then CCP probably can't track that as easily. (as an example) So you can move money away from the offending char rather easily, putting items through the market system to proxy the transaction. There are many other ways that I can conceive of laundering isk in game (i.e. making it hard for ccp to track the isk movement). --- The Other Orange
PJRiddick	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:47:00 - [1596] Greets to all. I hope that i dont get flamed for this one but here it goes. I am going to give my two ISK worth of observations here and add to the mess that has already insued over this whole situation. CCP,..I do agree with you for banning the players/ entities involved in this whole starbase thing,...BUT,..... If you knew abou tit for as many years as i have been seeing and reading her ein the forums,..then banning the players or the corporations involved is just wrong. I for one would clearly use any game mechanics that would give me an advantage over others,...ESPECIALLY if CCP knew that it exists, for at that point it migrates form an "EXPLOIT" to an "INTENTIONAL GAME FEATURE" Clearly you all knew that something was amiss, therefor banning the players or the entities involved was a big much. it seems to me that all was good untill someone complained that there wallets were getting fat over such said GAME FEATURE. Heres my suggestion to a solution, 1) Fix the problem 2) Any and all persons and or entities that were involved in said activities be made to give up there assets wether they be corporate or personal, (ie isk/ships/ POSes) and take 1/2 of there skill points 3) allow them to remain in the game as an example to others not to screw with game mechanics to gain cleaar advantage over others, wether the gain be monatary or otherwise. CCP,...you all allow game exploits to go on, and I for one have experienced it and have reported it and you all have not done anything about the problems that i experienced with said "BUGS". This problem existed,...for some time now,..and now your banning these people involved? Thats just wrong. If your going to do anything,...scroll up and read the first part here friends,.... But this is just al lmy opinion here,... Opinions are like feet,...we all got two,....Use them I just used one,...I still have one left! >R< Clatu Verada Nicto Fly safe and dont screw with game mechanics,.....it will get you banned.
Plundaar Gallente Golden Orb Technology inc	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:49:00 - [1597] Originally by: CCP Wrangler We have discovered an exploit involving starbases that made it possible for some players to gain an unfair advantage over others. We have taken measures to address this by removing the starbases used in the exploit. Additionally, assets gained from its use have been seized and bans levied against the players involved. We will continue to monitor the game for issues such as this one. We encourage players to create a petition if become aware of any activities which may permit others to gain an unfair advantage in the game. Update by Customer Support: On December 7th 2008, a date which will live in infamy, a petition from a concerned player alerted us to a serious problem with Starbase reactors. The petition had been filed five days earlier, a far longer waiting time than we can accept with our current queue status and we have now taken measures to fix that. We immediately started investigating the issue and found that there was indeed a problem and that it was being exploited to gain unfair advantages. We discovered seven corporations with multiple Starbases set up for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. We took immediate action against the offenders and banned over 70 accounts and destroyed all the Starbases run by the corporations in question. All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions. The corporations were producing high end materials for T2 production. Working with the Research & Statistics team we have established that the effects on the markets have been considerable and far reaching. The effects of our actions against the exploiters will also be felt on the market as the production of the materials has been cut substantially. However, supply should increase again once players have mastered the alchemy process. We are still conducting operations to deal with this matter and we will keep you posted on the progress and results as things develop. Update: This matter will be brought up at a CSM and CCP meeting this upcoming weekend. I'm quoting the original because I want to point out something. CSM and CCP are having a meeting this upcoming weekend. I suggest you make it eve accessable.
MMXMMX Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:50:00 - [1598] It looks to me that if this went on like 4 years then the only way to survive as a alliance was to participate in the exploit or die . Like i always read on these forums ADAPT OR DIE !!!! That gives me the feeling that the all had to do it so not only 1 of the alliances had the big advantage over the rest . I could be wrong lol
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:51:00 - [1599] Originally by: MMXMMX It looks to me that if this went on like 4 years then the only way to survive as a alliance was to participate in the exploit or die . Like i always read on these forums ADAPT OR DIE !!!! That gives me the feeling that the all had to do it so not only 1 of the alliances had the big advantage over the rest . I could be wrong lol Sometimes the choice to die is the right choice
nekolove Eve University	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:52:00 - [1600] The only thing I can do is LOL in front of all the players' faces who, in good faith, have ever put real money into the game, and I say this looking myself at the mirror. I guess when I came to EvE I forgot that humans usually do not learn from their errors from the past.

Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:59:00 - [1601] Originally by: AnobizII Originally by: Finderup Soren This is EVE...... It didnt change for me overnight because "some1" has had more ISK then me... I still change my skills .... I still fly in my ships..... All this little sand box game teaches u is that it is a cruel harsh world out there.... Live with it, or go play something else! Soren I completly agree, it aint affecting me or my alliance. So you alliance live in a cutoff part of EVE? EVE is a game of competition, and if someone gained ground from exploits, it did affect you, like it or not, obvious or not !
Tasty Bit Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:01:00 - [1602] This is **ing great. If I could be arsed I'd read the full thread. As it is I'm just pleased they have yet again ed up in a big **ing way. wtfg, CCCP.
Ebon Rue New Found Power	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:01:00 - [1603] Whoot! Yay for common sense prevailing in the midst of chaos. For those wondering, it went like this. Player discovers exploit to create t2 mats out of thin air. Player shares exploit with a small group. This group proceeds to make billions of ISK as they flood the market with these t2 mats. CCP finds out, and perma bans those obviously implicit in the exploit. To be safe they wipe the assets of the involved corps. Player and group throws a tantrum, sets out to screw CCP. (Something made easy due to the handling of the T20 incident, trust is susceptible to sensationalist gossip.) CCP continues their thorough investigation while player base goes into a frenzy about an exploit that "OMG! CCP HAS KNOWN 4 FOUR years!!" An unproven fact that market numbers DO NOT support. Some players quit in anger, otherwise the world keeps turning until a journal is published on the matter. Keep your head on your shoulders folks, bust out the tinfoil hats. This isn't PvP, it's PvCCP.
Baske Space-Bar	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:02:00 - [1604] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Astro Glyde AP - Reykjavik, Iceland December 12, 2008 - For Immediate Release CCP one of the worldÆs leading independent game developers, today fully disclosed details on its most recent scandal. One that could potentially have real-world implications of this most recent exploit which, some say, has been in effect for years. The producers of EVE Online, a player-driven persistent-world massively multiplayer online (MMO) game set in a science fiction space setting. And just as in real-life, it may require a financial bailout to counter its most recent catastrophe... [SNIP] Senior management at CCP held high level discussions in an attempt to resolve the vast and far reaching implications. "While most of the internal policies and decisions won't be publicly discussed, we are pleased to release this clip which clearly demonstrates our current course of action." said a senior game developer who asked to remain anonymous. Review Video Meh. We all know one of the C's in CCP stands for Catastrophy. It gives them and the things they do a whole lot of character IMO. Can someone point me to this "full disclosure"....Because I don't believe it to be true, unless I have access to this full disclosure myself.
Comrade Fox Birth Control Defects	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:03:00 - [1605] Originally by: MMXMMX It looks to me that if this went on like 4 years then the only way to survive as a alliance was to participate in the exploit or die . Like i always read on these forums ADAPT OR DIE !!!! That gives me the feeling that the all had to do it so not only 1 of the alliances had the big advantage over the rest . I could be wrong lol You're wrong. Just because some alliances decided to make for the easy money doesn't mean they all did. Though, I do believe that more than the 3 corps in 2 alliances were involved, and I know for a fact that accounts unaware of the exploiting were banned for being in the offending corps, weather they personally benefited from the exploit or not. Know what you know and speculate about the rest? I just hope the CSM popularity contest pays off in some respect, though i doubt it.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:03:00 - [1606] Edited by: Andrue on 12/12/2008 16:05:21 Originally by: Lord Bleu I see people saying 'it's just a game' and though I personally don't invest a gargantuous amount of time in the game, I know people who do. For these people, eve is more than a game, much more so enough of the 'it's only a game' comments. That's their fault for being stupid then. Quote: Remove the fact that it's a game and what it boils down to is invested time. We only live once, so any time invested in anything is important. Correct. But we subscribe to this game to have fun. No-one (except the terminally stupid) think they will get anything back from the game. It's not an investment vehicle. If you were having fun for the last <however long it has been going on> then you got your money's worth. If you weren't having fun prior to this going public then you were a fool for wasting your money it in the first place. This incident might have soured the game going forward - in that case cancel your sub. But it's silly to claim that it has somehow invalidated what happened before. Put another way:You still have memories of the good times in Eve. If you don't think there'll be any more then quit. But don't let a bunch of emoraging idiots taint your memories. They are your memories - hang on to them. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:09:00 - [1607] Hay,...i got a whole bunch of T-II stuff for sale,...Realy cheep too,..... hehehe Just kidding >R< Duck and cover time!
Hellrazer Sinner Among Saints	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:20:00 - [1608] Tell you what CCP.... Remove the fail QR and most of EvE will forgive you twice.
Airatt	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:25:00 - [1609] I am part of a small corp. We are only 8 months into Eve. This problem has many roots. Any action will have a major impact. With the market as a major part. This means the gap on every aspect of the game will widen even more for the new players and new corps. Hence the penalty against the parties involved will impact all of us. Luv the game.. But there is no future for the game if all our honest efforts are proven worthless, because of exploits. CCP send in an alien invasion to 0.0. Keep the alliances busy defending themselves in 0.0. That way the rest of us can catchup.. The capital spent defending will punish all and impact the game.. We must look for solutions, not blame.. If we are to have faith in our game and CCP.
MMXMMX Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:26:00 - [1610] Originally by: Comrade Fox Originally by: MMXMMX It looks to me that if this went on like 4 years then the only way to survive as a alliance was to participate in the exploit or die . Like i always read on these forums ADAPT OR DIE !!!! That gives me the feeling that the all had to do it so not only 1 of the alliances had the big advantage over the rest . I could be wrong lol You're wrong. Just because some alliances decided to make for the easy money doesn't mean they all did. Though, I do believe that more than the 3 corps in 2 alliances were involved, and I know for a fact that accounts unaware of the exploiting were banned for being in the offending corps, weather they personally benefited from the exploit or not. Know what you know and speculate about the rest? I just hope the CSM popularity contest pays off in some respect, though i doubt it. I dit NOT say the ALL did !!!!! Lots off alliance dit realy Die and maiby the dit not ADAPT And maiby in the end that was a good choice after all .

Sundogg	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:26:00 - [1611] Just a sec all, I think some of us have missed the point in Wranglers post: "We discovered seven corporations with *multiple Starbases* set up *for the express purpose of exploiting the issue. Three of those corporations were members of two alliances. We took immediate action against the offenders and banned over 70 accounts and destroyed all the Starbases run by the corporations in question.* All the offending corporations are now effectively inactive as a result of our actions." What he is saying is this was the immediate response, not necessarily the final chapter or summary of their conclusions. These corporations were those that were setup EXPLICITLY to utilize the exploit in question. Given just the sheer amount of work it would take to form those corporations and setup POS's with over 70 accnts between them would suggest to me the issue is certainly more than a couple days old, and I think Wrangler thinly suggested that with his opening line of "a day that shall forever live on in infamy" I'm not a CCP Fanboy but I can imagine that if the exploit is as "far reaching" as CCP Wrangler suggested it is going to take some serious man hours to pull the data and mine it for answers, I think we should give them that time. Put into perspective that ONLY 3 of the corporations INITIALLY found were part of 2 separate alliances. That kind of exploit information would take time to travel to the other 4 corporations that were not part of the alliances in question. So I am sure if I can figure that out so can CCP. And I would suspect the Ban Bat has not been put away in the closet yet. Put the pitchforks and kindling wood down, and lets just see what unfolds over the next few weeks. Dogg
AkRoYeR Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:29:00 - [1612] and I put my money on.... 1. BoB 2. Goonswarm Way to go guys, game ruined! :(
Blackmarketbaby	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:36:00 - [1613] oh so that evoke says goodbye with a smile? he should be burned alive. those 70 should have their balls cut off, any ccp-staff involved should be lynched, and the rest should be buried alive. ccp is just planning in which country to do this - anything else would be plain weak. resetting the server aint fair - thats treating the cheaters as bad as everyone else. tracing assets and removing them will be too complicated for the obviously incompetent staff. so whats the option? saying that your sorry? what kind of ****ing reimbursement would that be... all involved have been more or less stealing money from hundreds of thousand other players, whats the usual punishment for such where you live?
Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:37:00 - [1614] Originally by: Sundogg Just a sec all, I think some of us have missed the point in Wranglers post: ..."a day that shall forever live on in infamy" ... I think you missed his point as well. December 7, 1941 was the "day that shall live in infamy", The attack on Pearl Harbor. Seriously, this is a dark day in EVE's history. Let's all just take it slowly and with calm. This will all get sorted out. http://www.eve-druid.com
Rooster Fish UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:38:00 - [1615] I just rifted a bunch of people through a keep gate, aoe'd them all down, then dragged the lord to the first floor. Should I expect a ban some time in the next 24 hours?
Ertai Vodalion Gallente LifeLine Solutions	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:39:00 - [1616] Quote: all involved have been more or less stealing money from hundreds of thousand other players, whats the usual punishment for such where you live? we usually call them government - and there is no punishment for them - they rule ;)
Leakim jones Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:42:00 - [1617] In all honesty all we have to suggest that it has been 4 years is someone ****ed off that CCP shook the ban stick in their direction. In all honesty it probably came in when the Alchemy was introduced to the game. I fully support CCP in everything that they have done in the process of this investigation, i feel that once the investigation has run its course there should be a naming and shaming since it is better that CCP tell people who was involved rather than the stupid rumour mill that has been blaming random alliances for the last couple of days (Mostly everyone blaming BOB or RAWR). At the end of the day CCP haven't finished the investigation and another statement will come in due course. Calling for heads to roll and random accusations between people isn't going to help the matter at all. My 0.2 isk
Laari Neros	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:42:00 - [1618] OH MY **** YOU FAIL
Blackmarketbaby	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:44:00 - [1619] Originally by: Ertai Vodalion Quote: all involved have been more or less stealing money from hundreds of thousand other players, whats the usual punishment for such where you live? we usually call them government - and there is no punishment for them - they rule ;) ya i suppose that goes for ccp, but sometimes you atleast punish some scapegoats (would be players in this case i presume, since ccp has their heads up their arse) - put them in jail, or atleast forced labour
Bobbechk The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.12.12 16:48:00 - [1620] ...



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