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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.01.14 06:51:00 -
[361]
 Quote:
(along with being an awesome game on a single server)
Ah, that explains alot. I mean that SINGLE SERVER stuff because last nite in lowsec, normal and equal 64 man blob engaged our 20 man blob and lag was unbearable! So you admit that you run on SINGLE server? I got some old Xeon servers, where can I donate them? |
Illectroculus Defined
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Posted - 2009.01.14 06:53:00 -
[362]
The big issue for me is that the Classic client gets 3 hours of battery life on my laptop (Lenovo T61p w/ NVidia Quadro), while premium mode will suck my battery dry in 40 minutes, in fact the current draw for the high end graphics catches the OS by surprise and I don't even get a 'save your work now' prompt, it just dies without getting a chance to suspend to disk.
Oh, and when it's running in premium mode I have to be careful because it can easily get too hot, whereupon it'll either
a) burn me
b) shut down
c) spew corrupted graphics over my desktop
Anyway, while this is an extreme example, the fact is that laptop sales are holiding up better than desktops, and many laptops are still shipping with grpahics hardware that isn't up to the task of running SM3 graphics engines.
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Komen
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.01.14 06:57:00 -
[363]
I was lucky enough, at the outset of the new Trinity graphics engine, to have a confluence of my old graphics card (SM1) die due to the fan giving out, and having the cash, and knowledge of SM3 requirement, to get an ATI x1950 (only I wish I'd gone Nvidia, hate this card). So i've been on premium since day 1 on Tranq.
That said, I think discontinuing SM2 support this year, even in winter, would be a bad idea in terms of number of people who play Eve on older hardware.
Wait 'til NEXT winter, in 2010. By then the monoliths will have turned Jupiter into a new sun, so solar will be a better option, the economy will improve, and we'll all be able to afford supercomputers to run our 1000 accounts while speaking to the aliens from Alpha Centauri that we found due to SETI, and who like to trade pirated movies with us.
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Draku Rykenen
Gallente
Exiled.
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2009.01.14 06:58:00 -
[364]
I fully support the end of classic and the move to premium lite.
For those that will no longer be able to play it might hurt, but anyone that can spend money monthly on a computer game CAN find the means to move to an SM 3 card. You can get those cards for extremely cheap these days as the first SM 3 cards are now several generations old.
The game cannot pander to the lowest common denominator for ever. It isn't healthy for the game or fair to the subscribers that wish to see EVE progress.
Technology marches on.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:03:00 -
[365]
Personally, even if my machine can run a single account on Premium/normalshadows/whatever at a more than reasonable framerate, I always stuck with the Classic version because, frankly, the ships I prefer to fly (especially the Nighthawk) simply look better in Classic (jet-black in Classic vs the dark-shiny-metal of Premium).
But that's a matter of personal preference, and it's nothing that can't be overlooked if I can turn of the shiny part (which I suppose is a SM3 feature).
That being said, there's TWO big things to consider.
1. The issue of "not enough end-user customisation".
What that means is that we would really, really like a lot (and I mean, A LOT) more options for "look customisation".
And that doesn't include just the differences between Classic and Premium, but the ability to shift down graphic detail much lower than currently if we so wish, a thing you consistently denied us access to.
For instance, I would very much like to KILL THE DARNED INSANELY BRIGHT BACKGROUND, and fly in a space that's mostly black, just a splash of color here and there and the usual starfield.
Another thing I'd really want to do is, for instance, TURN OFF TEXTURES, and simply have the ships represented as shaded, plain-coloured models.
Or, for instance, I would really like to be able to simply turn off the display of some very small models altogether and be able to replace them completely with their bracket.
In other words, give us a finer control over backgrounds, texture quality, level of detail tresholds, viewing distance or whatnot and so on and so forth, then all is peachy.
2. The issue of "some people play from really crappy machines sometimes because they have to"
Sure, I am at home most of the time whenever I'm online a longer time, and I try to set my skill training in such a way that I am home when it's done.
But sometimes, you get an IM from a corpmate asking you to lend him some ISK, set some manufacture jobs, sell him something from your reserve stash, talk to somebody wlse who's looking for you ingame or god knows what else. And then, you have to log in from whatever the heck you have available... even if you have your EVE on a pocket USB flashdrive, usually whatever that machine is, it's not a great machine to begin with... either some old office machine, or some public machine that already can run EVE, some older laptop... things like that.
So, before you completely absolete SM1 and even SM2 capable video cards... you should take a really good look at how things make it necessary for you to log in occasionally from junk machines.
If you plan to make SM3 mandatory, you'd better give us (BEFORE you do that) a non-accelerated "ultralight" client for chat, evemail, inventory and market. Oh, and for skillchanges (or even better, a skill-queue instead).
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Twilight Magister
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:05:00 -
[366]
i'd be more happy to see EVE running on the new generation netbooks WELL, like the asus eee, or the lenovo s10. rather than get a shiney upgrade.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:07:00 -
[367]
Also, would it be so hard for you to have a "default enabled but ask for it anyway" machine specs collection routine at each login ?
I mean, trivial stuff only : CPU type and speed, RAM size, videocard type and videocard RAM, nothing else.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Kbobiller
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:17:00 -
[368]
Regarding the hardware people use, Valve has been using the Steam client to collect peoples hardware stats for a looooong time, and since Eve is available through Steam, how about mining their data to see what people have?
Note that many of Valves games cater to people on lower-spec hardware and scale nicely for those with high end stuff; but don't go arbitrarily chopping off 5% of your userbase 
Like many others here I often use a laptop, with Quadro 360M graphics, which is premium capable but used with the classic client to increase battery life and to reduce the chronic heat output; the option to run at lower detail graphics settings is essential for many.
A single client would bring benefits, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water 
Kbob
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Selina Lonarin
Gallente
Zero People Skills
Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:17:00 -
[369]
As a developer, I can appreciate what CCP is trying to achieve. Fewer codebases and rendering paths makes development easier.
As a consumer, this is a pretty dangerous decision for CCP.
Removing support for older hardware from software that mandates upgrades is generally not a good way to win over customers - whilst it may bring in 5% new customers (whom I suspect will be a 5% you probably won't want - they'll get over the prettier fancier graphics in a month or two, then leave) - you'll build a stigma of being the MMORPG company that abandons its paying players.
I can only partially agree with removing pre SM2 support - whilst there is no new hardware out there that isn't capable of handling pre-SM2, it was once supported, is currently still supported, and currently may represent a player or a player's alt.
The removal of SM2 support this year I can't condone - not until we've had at least 3 years (the 'average' depreciation span of a laptop here in .au) pass since the SM3 capable laptop become mainstream. Doing so would cut off the portion of players who play the game on a laptop that met spec, but aren't serious gamers. (Sorry, Serious gamer arguments do not bide well - serious gamers are a minority in the greater population, likewise, graphic cards update arguments don't bide well because not everybody can upgrade).
What I want to know is why it's not possible for CCP to use the "premium" codebase and assets to make a client that can degrade down the various shader-models versions safely assuming the card can meet the vertex and fill rates required, and continue to support it in this way? Surely you can produce acceptable visual output using the premium model geometry, the diffuse texture and basic vertex lighting, disable effects and provide that as the entry level support.
It is acceptable to deliver a lower (but adequate) level of visual quality to players using older hardware, but it's not acceptable to completely cut them off when they could previously play using their hardware. Maybe you should issue a warning box when the client starts, but you should try very hard to avoid cutting those players out.
I also happen to agree strongly with those who believe a rebate is in order should CCP affect a minimum specification change during a long subscription block that renders their current hardware unable to play acceptably.
I think this move is premature anyway. The Mac and Linux clients need some serious love. When CCP can release a native EVE client for OSX (sorry, this Cider crap isn't native - 100% non-stop CPU utilisation on both cores just for the login screen says its a poor emulation attempt to me) maybe I'll feel less apprehensive about them dropping support for older systems.
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Xiza Larynx
XxTiggerxX Corp
United Pod Service
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:22:00 -
[370]
Will we be able to run EVE on netbooks? e.i Asus EEE 1000H. ?
A toned down version "lite" for changing skills and doing station stuff, market, chatting etc.. would be nice at least.
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:24:00 -
[371]
Think about all those shiny eee pc which run eve thanks to an intel GMA 950!
Discontinuing model shader 2 support next winter sounds too early...
Disabling those to run eve would need at least some help on the 'vital minimum' : switching skills without the client!
Anyway, I ran missions, traded and can do quite many things with my eee pc 1002HA, note that it's not an old model and it has the huge advantage of not burning your lap like so many laptop that integrated powerful graphics!
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Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Mr Ignitious
R.E.C.O.N.
The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:24:00 -
[372]
Call it a personal problem if you will but i myself play on a gross... old... ATI Mobility Radeon 9600/9700 series which does support Shader Model 2.0, but not 3.0. Because its a laptop i cant exactly just go and change. Other problem is that i'm a college student that doesn't have any money =/
Imo: Keep this "lite" thing. it sounds like a good idea for two reasons: make sure that noone/very few people get ****ed on by not getting to play anymore and that when someone expects to undergo a visually stressful engagement they can switch to help reduce any lag issues.
I would be really really sad after my 2 short years of eve were cut off because i all the sudden cant run it anymore 
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
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HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:33:00 -
[373]
So you're going to FORCE me to look at the crap version of the Prowler?
Seriously, no blue spinning thingys in premium is weak.
Why does CCP hate minmatar? |
Hollier
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:38:00 -
[374]
I paid for my subscription based on the fact that this game runs on older hardware, i`m sick of being told to upgrade , I don`t care how pretty the graphics are Gameplay is a far more important consideration.
I`ve worked in the computer industry for 26 years and do a lot of charity work enabling elderly citizens to have access to computers ,these machines are often older "refurbished" machines but games like EVE have always run well, and yes there are 70+ yr old people playing EVE who would not be happy that one of their hard earned hobbies is about to be taken away.
For those who casually say "if you want to play then upgrade" why don`t YOU get out YOUR credit card and pay for everyone before you tell them what to do.
Good luck and farewell
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Amar'u Deltmartuk
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:43:00 -
[375]
Edited by: Amar''u Deltmartuk on 14/01/2009 07:45:18
I might be reiterating here, but another issue with > SM2 support on laptops is simply workload and FPS. That is, there is compatibility and then playability, both of which are important (and which people have already somewhat addressed).
In any case, I bought a brand-new Toshiba Protege M700 a year ago. It's a tablet, but it has a 2GHz C2D mobile cpu and 4GB of RAM. I needed the best compromise between performance and tablet (needed tablet for work). It plays Classic, just well enough - averaging 25FPS down to slide show in heavy entity environments. This laptop is, again, not even a year old - I PRE-ORDERED the machine, 2 weeks before it was released to market! It cost me about $2000. That was my computing upgrade. The average corporate upgrade cycle is 3 years, so think about it...
Putting together a new machine with say, an 8800GT right now would cost me around $500 (assuming others might have to move from say an ATI R300 agp card to pci-e that actually does SM3 *well* - I just priced it out on newegg). The yearly fee for Eve is $131.40, assuming people are prepaying, but people with cashflow issues could very well be on $15/mo - which makes the annual price $180, with the majority of people in between. So you're basically going to make people drop the equivalent of 3 years worth of subscriptions (see the irony here?) to make their game playable (as in ability to actually play the game the way it was designed, not clipshow mode) again in 6 months?
Even though I know that my Intel X3100 supports up to SM4, and the driver can even do T&L now, but you know what? With not even 30FPS out in a roid field, I need every FPS I can get - I might even be willing to bet an entire gtc that moving to SM2 on this platform will make even regular missioning impossible. I understand the necessity to move away from SM1, but even Valve's Source Engine still supports DX8 cards!
-throwing my gripe out there...
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Des Jardin
Ad Astra Vexillum
Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:46:00 -
[376]
The impact of the change in system requirements disproportionally affects laptop owners. While a desktop system can add a new card, many laptops cannot. Therefore, the relative cost to "upgrade" is higher for laptop owners.
While I could swing a new graphics card for a desktop system (if I had one), a new laptop is not an option.
I guess March 9 will be my last game day ... just when EVEMon has me finishing my Dread training.
Des Jardin
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keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:50:00 -
[377]
Actually, I have a related question for you devs.
Does the fact that you won't be needing to maintain 2 versions of the assets mean you'll finally get around to fixing all those minor but visible and annoying bug with the models?
I'm speaking of things like the succubus only showing one gun (been this way since 2005 at least), the harbinger showing mount points for 8 guns and having the bottom mount on the 7th off to one side (been this way since 2006) and stuff like that?
There's a number of them in the game, and they only intensify the already pervasive feeling that CCP has feature ADD. They look ... well, unprofessional.
... and I really think they should boost T2 plate HP.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:55:00 -
[378]
Originally by: Glassback
Originally by: Andrue
If we could just render the inside of a station with environment loading disabled it would be useful. That way people relying on slightly crappy laptops can still chat to friends from their hotel room and change skills.
Just turn off station environment under display & Graphics?
You misunderstand.
I'm guessing that when the SM changes come out low spec machines won't even be able to get to the login screen. The client simply won't run. Same as you can't run the Premium client now without SM3.
I'm suggesting that perhaps CCP could modify the client so that if there wasn't enough Shader support the client would disable the ability to undock and would turn off loading of station environments. That might not involve much development time and would give mobile users a chance to get their Eve fix while away from home.
--
(Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Mr LaboratoryRat
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:56:00 -
[379]
no more semi afk playing eve on my laptop i guess after the winter expansion 2009 
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Arous Drephius
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:56:00 -
[380]
Dropping SM2 support in a year's time is bad. Plenty of people (me included) would be able to play EVE on their main computer with SM3 cards, but laptops and such that people use to change skills in a hurry would be stuck.
If you really want to drop SM2 support, make it possible to change skills without needing an SM3 compatible card.
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rampant sanity
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Posted - 2009.01.14 08:00:00 -
[381]
Originally by: Selina Lonarin
<cut> 100% non-stop CPU utilisation on both cores just for the login screen says its a poor emulation attempt to me</cut>
this happens on windows machines too... it's because it's a python native program.
i'd like to see my CPU not be pegged out myself. it's a bit annoying.
also support for XP64 would be good; i'm not going to go to vista and really don't want to stay in 32bit just because eve requires it.
as for video issues...
i ran premium graphics and went back to classic... it wasn't worth the additional tie up for shiny asteroid fields i was destroying with a strip miner.
not everyone wants high graphics content. i still play mechwarrior2 for that reason alone.
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Ms Freeze
Marketing Research
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.01.14 08:01:00 -
[382]
Currently running in on my laptop which has a X700 ATI card, and on my Acer Aspire 150 netbook that I bought 2 weeks ago to enable me to switch training when I am on the move.
Will it still run on an X700?
I like the idea of 2 clients, one with lower requirements, but it would be kind of useless if you increase the minimum requirements in the same process imho.
--
"You don't appreciate a lot of stuff in school until you get older. Little things like being spanked every day by a middle aged woman: Stuff you pay good money for in later life." - Tony Curtis |
Erika Bronz
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Posted - 2009.01.14 08:19:00 -
[383]
I don't understand much of PC and PC language, but after a hard struggle (and some help) I've found out that my PC is an AMD Athlon Pocessor 1.25 GHz, 1 GB RAM. Graphic card is a RADEON 9200 SERIES. For how long will I be able to play Eve? I looked at the link in the blog, but I didn't understand anything of the info there. Thanks in advance if anyone can answer my question. 
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Maverick 52
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.01.14 08:24:00 -
[384]
I understand the need for eve to progress on to newer hardware, however cutting off the part of you player base that likely can not upgrade is cheap in my opinion.
I mean, anyone playing on a SM1 card likely isn't doing it by choice. I'm sure they'd love to have the latest and greatest computer hardware but it's just not high enough in their priorities for it to happen. The other part being people using older computers on the go, or possibly when away from home to keep up on skill changes and market transactions. I personally used a friends older computer with a SM1 graphics card to change skills while I didn't have internet in my own home. If eve hadn't run on that I would of been SOL
Anyways, I can understand the elimination of a playable client on SM1 but I would like to see a "EVE Lite" to keep those players in eve until they can get their new hardware.
The elimination of SM2 support seems way too early for me. I currently use a Radeon 9800 PRO on my desktop and until this announcement I had no plans of upgrading anytime soon. EVE is pretty much the only PC game I play, and any others are even older than EVE so they run fine. Beyond it personally affecting me, I believe your statistics are crap and that much more of your market has computers running a SM2 card.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.14 08:28:00 -
[385]
Originally by: Xailia
Originally by: D'ceet
Right now you can run the Premium Client on any GMA9xx computer (or Mirage 3, S3 Chrome, x200) with premium content disabled.
No you can't. The Premium client requires SM3 and the GMA9xx derivates don't have it.
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(Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.14 08:30:00 -
[386]
Originally by: Miney Prospector
It's about time.
I wouldn't worry about the people saying they are going to quit since their laptop from 1997 isn't going to be able to play the game anymore.
I bought my laptop in November 2007. It's barely two years old.
--
(Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Pivalak
Ultriach Criesther Evirementari
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Posted - 2009.01.14 08:31:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Erika Bronz
I don't understand much of PC and PC language, but after a hard struggle (and some help) I've found out that my PC is an AMD Athlon Pocessor 1.25 GHz, 1 GB RAM. Graphic card is a RADEON 9200 SERIES.
An ATI Radeon 9200 Series card provides DirectX 8.1 features if I'm not wrong. That means just ShaderModel 1.1 is supported, so you better upgrade your graphics card before March 10th or you won't be able to play Eve any more...
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Vaerah Vain
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Posted - 2009.01.14 08:43:00 -
[388]
Quote:
1. Please stop supporting SM2 by the end of 2009. Geforce 6-7 series are already archaic by today's standards and they can support SM3. You can get an SM3 compatible card for 20-40 bucks, or find people giving them away for practically nothing. The biggest problem its going to cause is for people who want to log in and play or change skills from their laptops that have ****ty Intel chipsets. Unfortunately, there's probably a ton of those. Players will just have to blame Intel, and then blame themselves for trying to game on an Intel graphics chipset
If your PC cant support Premium Lite, then its 10+ years old, and you have better things to spend your money on (like a new PC) than eve.
You know, i dont understand all the fuss. Id say most of the gamers (from avrage and above) upgrade PC at least once in 2-3 years, Enthusiasts upgrade PC every 6 months, so why all the fuss about going on SM3 ?
"Most of the gamers" are viced 12 olds with a generous daddy regularly shelling hundreds.
EVE got an elder playerbase, plus unlike the appropriate games for "most of the gamers", EVE "strongly suggests" to have / pay for multiple characters.
The elder playerbase have 1 updated computer but can't really self support their little personal data center.
The mining / indy / lab alts have to do such menial tasks that even a CGA rendering would do.
The problem is that suddenly your previous "main computers" / laptops which perfectly ran EVE alts now won't.
Cannot upgrade AGP machines here, the pieces simply don't exist any more. Can't change motherboard to support a PCI card without changing the power supply and the cabinet. In any case the hard disk is IDE. Everything would need to be changed or adapters of some kind to be found.
Same for laptop. The laptop buyers could not choose what video card to use, an huge number of HP and other famous brands laptops come with Intel. I just GPU-Z checked and this laptop I am writing this post with (and running 1 alt) cannot run the new game. Nor can my other PC.
Unlike "most of the gamers" I have a job, a life, expenses and a TERRIBLE economy time to deal with. Can't maintain 3 shiny DX10 compatible computers without selling car or something.
Quote:
if you want to use a laptop for something it's not actually designed for i.e gaming then im afraid you have to pay quite a decent amount of money for an actual GAMING laptop as apposed to a normal laptop which are designed for business users.
People don't buy laptops to buy EVE. Why buy an expensive (and other downsided) laptop for EVE?
The opposite happens: the day they feel the need to pay 1 more subscription for 1 more alt, they are strongly pushed into it because they realize they already got a laptop to use for it.
Quote:
I fully support the end of classic and the move to premium lite.
For those that will no longer be able to play it might hurt, but anyone that can spend money monthly on a computer game CAN find the means to move to an SM 3 card. You can get those cards for extremely cheap these days as the first SM 3 cards are now several generations old.
The game cannot pander to the lowest common denominator for ever. It isn't healthy for the game or fair to the subscribers that wish to see EVE progress.
Technology marches on.
Economy does not.
The FIRST thing dropped in these times is the less vital activities and entertrainment is the first to go.
Let technology march, EVE got 11M subscribers anyway and none cares for "5%" to be forced to quit, isn't it? Oh wait... that's another game.
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Deira Lenia
The Chaotic Order
Void.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 08:47:00 -
[389]
Step 2: In the Winter Expansion 2009 we are considering discontinuing support for ShaderModel 2 and make the minimum specification ShaderModel 3(GeForce 6 class cards or ATi x1300 or compatible)
YaaY, lets make everyone spend 300$ in hardware to play our game!
Your starting to sound like EA.
/quit. |
Huan CK
Gallente
GK inc.
R.U.R.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 08:51:00 -
[390]
I don't know what people get upset about.
Guys, eve still has quite low requirements if you compare them to other games, and how much hardware they eat. You gotta move on with new technology, and make use of it.
I can't see why a company would hold back on 95% of their costumers just to satisfy the other 5%. If you were in charge of a company making that decission, you'd just say "good bye 5%" :)
Good move CCP.
To those who play on 10 year old pc's: Get Pacman :) |
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