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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 13 post(s)
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:09:00 - [61] Edited by: Andrue on 13/01/2009 20:15:05 Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Gerome Doutrande Are you also considering laptops when looking a sm 2/3 support? What would be the implications for those when going to sm 2 and especially sm 3? (Imagine a generic remark about laptops selling better than "proper PCs" here.) We are in fact considering laptops, most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3 (the GMA series as per here) Yah, that's what mine has (Acer Aspire 5610). It actually plays Eve well enough for me to fly around a bit although there was a time just before the release of the Premium client when it randomly crashed on docking. But you mention ditching SM2 in the Winter '09 expansion. That's not so clever. I don't play Eve on the laptop (I have a spanking desktop for that) but not being able to even log in to chat and check markets would be annoying. Especially when I'm stuck in a hotel room as sometimes happens. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Corinna Telum	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:09:00 - [62] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Gerome Doutrande Are you also considering laptops when looking a sm 2/3 support? What would be the implications for those when going to sm 2 and especially sm 3? (Imagine a generic remark about laptops selling better than "proper PCs" here.) We are in fact considering laptops, most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3 (the GMA series as per here) That's nice you want to buy me a new laptop. My current laptop is just fine I surf the internet, check my email and play Eve.
Aegiale Heliad	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:12:00 - [63] What will mean this regarding Linux? For the Mac there is now a Premium client, but for Linux? Btw: Please keep supporting SM2, otherwise all my secondary machines will be useless.
Alz Shado Ever Flow Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:13:00 - [64] Edited by: Alz Shado on 13/01/2009 20:15:07 But more importantly, Will the Prowler finally get it's blue spinning light back? á ----------------------------------------- "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Kaar Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:17:00 - [65] Originally by: Andrue If we could just render the inside of a station with environment loading disabled it would be useful. That way people relying on slightly crappy laptops can still chat to friends from their hotel room and change skills. Opening the map seems to lower the performance hit of being docked, or so i've noticed when using 3 or more accounts. --- ---
Achille Varzi Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:18:00 - [66] Yes to dropping SM1 - DX9 cards that came out 7 years ago support this. Definite NO to dropping SM2 - Even if we leave the laptop issue to one side (and come on lets face it, i'd be surprised if even 25% of laptops out in the eve community have SM3). Its only one generation ago that SM3 ATI cards were available. Are you telling me that a Radeon X850 isn't going to be able to run Eve come next winter?
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:18:00 - [67] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 13/01/2009 20:24:39 Originally by: Klauos Hauptman Does SM2 support cause more work, like Classic does? For those mystified as what Shader Model actually is, Microsoft's (un)help on the matter is the following, found here. I've copied some with an attempt at simplification: To translate the below, whilst avoiding a lot of technical jargon, a shader model is the ability to write small programs literally on the graphics cards which tell the card how to transform vertices (3D points) and pixels (colour points on the screen) and thus create different images. Shader Model 1: Quote: Shader Model 1 was the first shader model created in DirectX. It introduced vertex and pixel shaders to the first implementation of the programmable pipeline. Limitations: Vertex Shader Max: 128 instructions Shader Profiles: vs_1_1 Translation: First iteration of shader model language. Added vertex shaders only. (Edit: I know it says added pixel shaders but as far as I can tell, the pixel ones got deprecated and thus aren't strictly valid any more - it gets complicated). Shader Model 2: Quote: Shader Model 2 added additional capabilities to shader model 1. Limitations: Pixel Shader Max * ps_2_0 - 32 texture + 64 arithmetic * ps_2_x - 96 minimum, and up to the number of slots in D3DCAPS9.D3DPSHADERCAPS2_0.NumInstructionSlots. Vertex Shader Max: 256 instructions Shader Profiles: ps_2_0, ps_2_x, vs_2_0, vs_2_x Translation: Second iteration of shader model language. Added pixel shaders, allowing more complex effects by manipulating rendered pixels directly. Shader Model 3: Quote: Shader Model 3 added additional capabilities to shader model 2. Limitations: Pixel Shader Max: 512 minimum, and up to the number of slots in D3DCAPS9.MaxPixelShader30InstructionSlots. Vertex Shader Max: 512 minimum, and up to the number of slots in D3DCAPS9.MaxVertexShader30InstructionSlots. Shader Profiles: ps_3_0, vs_3_0 Translation: Third iteration of shader model language. Added more instructions and more room, thus allowing bigger and better features. I didn't bother adding Shader Model 4; looking it up is left as an exercise for the reader. Thus CCP's choices are (edit: after March's dropping of SM1): Maintain two separate sets of shaders, one written in SM2, the other using SM3 to enable use of more features. Maintain only one SM2 shader and accept that they can't work with the new features and thus hamper/halt their graphics improvements. Drop support for SM2 and work only with SM3. The tradeoffs should be fairly obvious; however the point the dev blog makes is that the separation only on shaders is a lot less work than maintaining two entire separate clients. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Kaya Divine Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:19:00 - [68] My subscription plan will last up to April. After March because of graphic card which will not support Premium Lite I will not be able to play. For those which subscriptions are even longer, and because of change of minimum requirements I hope that CCP will offer reimbursements. I consulted moralists to learn how to appear philosophers to find out what to think and novelists to see what I could get away with and in the end it all came down to one principle:win or die.
Gabriel Karade Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:19:00 - [69] I actually thought my 5 year old Geforce6800 would not support ShaderModel 3 but apparently it does (not that it matters as it's upgrade time). Now surely those things must be cheap to pick up these days? Besides, if you're spending 30 quid a month on 2 accounts, and struggling with bills e.t.c, surely you've got your life priorities just a little wrong?... -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
manasi Caldari Ceptacemia Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:19:00 - [70] Well theoretically the intel GMA use the x3100 video card in my Vista tablet ( which runs Classic quite well but bogs down a bit when I am on the road and have tried to connect to EvE with the premium client. None the less even if I could not play it on the tablet I welcome the upgrade! Thanks for offering the lower res stuff to some folks that just cannot get the 'latest and greatest' it shows a commitment beyond most companies to their user base. ~Manasi Come visit me at http://amuleineve.net I do not bite and value comments!
Rex Lashar November Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:27:00 - [71] 1. Please stop supporting SM2 by the end of 2009. Geforce 6-7 series are already archaic by today's standards and they can support SM3. You can get an SM3 compatible card for 20-40 bucks, or find people giving them away for practically nothing. The biggest problem its going to cause is for people who want to log in and play or change skills from their laptops that have ****ty Intel chipsets. Unfortunately, there's probably a ton of those. Players will just have to blame Intel, and then blame themselves for trying to game on an Intel graphics chipset. 2. Don't just downsample the textures for Premium Lite. Upsample them too, and create better normal maps. Some ships in EVE have TERRIBLE normal maps and they look extremely amateurish. Have the graphics settings: - very low (SM2 lo) - low (SM2 hi) - medium (SM3, current Trinity) - high (SM3, upsampled textures and maps) Then in Winter 2009: - low (SM3, downsampled) - medium (SM3, current Trinity) - high (SM3, upsampled textures and maps) 3. DirectX9.0c is getting old itself, CCP needs to look at the next gen graphics. EVE is pretty but when Trinity was released it was on par with many games out there (only in the updated areas). If you want to greatly simplify Mac/Linux support, make sure this new engine doesn't run on proprietary APIs. A new engine, Trinity 3 needs to be developed if EVE wants to stay on the cutting edge. But the problem is that OpenGL isn't competitive with DX11, and Larrabee is still more hype than hope :(
Amana Geddon	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:28:00 - [72] There is no excuse not to be able to afford a $30 video card with SM 2.0 if you're paying for EVE as it is. Most graphics hardware that comes with laptops these days can support at least that, and you've not even mentioned DX10 or SM 4.1. SM 1 can go, is it even supported in Vista as it is? ----- Knowledge is NOT power, knowledge is like coal. Lifeless lumps of facts and figures. To harness the power of knowledge one must apply the fires of understanding and creation.
Miz Cenuij	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:29:00 - [73] Genius LOL. I run Eve on a eee pc 1000h when im out and about or just lounging around on the sofa. This client upgrade will put a stop to that for myself and many many others. Ive cancelled one account this week (feel free to confirm this) owing to recent changes in the game. Go ahead with this and I will cancel all of my remaining accounts bar this one. Whilst im relativley well off, you have to laugh at a company that chooses to force a large portion of its customers to upgrade in the middle of a financial crisis. Dont you guys employ an actual financial expert? Arnt you based in a bankrupt country? The irony of it all. "Men are going to die... and i'm going to kill them"
Epitrope The Citadel Manufacturing and Trade Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:30:00 - [74] When the premium client was announced, there was a small downloadable tool that checked your system specs and said whether or not your computer would run it. One of those for this dev blog would be nice. That said, from what I can tell my desktop and my laptop should both be technically able to run the new lite premium, although neither can run the current full premium. EVE classic is at the lower end of playable on both, however, and this might confine me to sitting in station instead of playing. It's also just a bit premature to plan on dropping SM2 support... depending on how this year goes, a new computer is sadly not high on my list of necessary purchases. I'm always a little disdainful of the people who threaten to emoragequit on every dev blog, but for the first time I might be joining them - simply because I'd be unable to play.
Aganola Amarr Hungarian Riflemen Regiment Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:30:00 - [75] ok some specs here: AMD 64 3500+, 1GB DDR1 (@ 400MHz), ATI RadeOn 9800... supposedly supports PS 2.0... I would really prefer NOT TO upgrade this system in order to continue to play eve for at least another year or so... ps: anyone who says my rig is old, and I should buy a new one should donate me a couple of bucks...
Vaerah Vain	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:30:00 - [76] I have this PC with nVidia 8800 GTX that runs premium client just fine. But for my alts I have to use an AGP computer with the latest ATI AGP card I could grab in my country and a laptop (both can only run classic). I don't need insane graphics to mine... but if I can't play on those computers I'll be nerfed to play just 1 non money making character and i'll probably have to quit altogether.
Klauos Hauptman	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:32:00 - [77] Originally by: Astria Tiphareth The tradeoffs should be fairly obvious; however the point the dev blog makes is that the separation only on shaders is a lot less work than maintaining two entire separate clients. Thanks for the translations! So "lite" will require work but not as much as keeping Classic. Quote: Premium Lite will only require ShaderModel 2.0 hardware, and far less texture memory than the current Premium, ensuring good framerates on older hardware. We won't stop there - we are providing two flavors of ShaderModel 2.0 compatible shaders, currently named "lo" and "hi". It's funny they'd go through all this then drop it a few months later. Or could it be a mistype and the low/high thing is SM3? I know EVE needs to move on and I'm good with that. My "newish" laptop has SM3 just very slow.
rogersan	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:32:00 - [78] i can see the need for droping SM 1.0 but doing a way with SM 2.0 i think is to soon my desktop pc can do SM 3.0. But i have a laptop that i like to use to and that only support SM 2.0 so leave SM 2.0 in EVE
Dracira Dracc	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:34:00 - [79] Originally by: Vaerah Vain I have this PC with nVidia 8800 GTX that runs premium client just fine. But for my alts I have to use an AGP computer with the latest ATI AGP card I could grab in my country and a laptop (both can only run classic). I don't need insane graphics to mine... but if I can't play on those computers I'll be nerfed to play just 1 non money making character and i'll probably have to quit altogether. You can run them in a Windows ;-) But hey - that means that the Mac Client has to be premium ready at that time.... i hope it will be stable too......
Andrymeda	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:34:00 - [80] I'd like to see some comparative images. Improved eye candy is always good. ----------- Amused pilot
Rynlam Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:41:00 - [81] I'm lucky enough to have both a laptop and desktop with SM4.0. While the 4870 runs Premium at 1650x1080 with maximum settings without breaking a sweat, the 9300M GS in my laptop much prefers the Classic client. CCP really needs to do a hardware survey similar to Valve's, to find out what hardware people are actually running. Just because my laptop supports SM4.0 does NOT mean it is going to produce playable FPS on SM3.0 and SM4.0.
Susan Morals	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:44:00 - [82] Originally by: CCP Zulupark We are in fact considering laptops, most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3 (the GMA series as per here) Depends on your definition of new. My Thinkpad R40e has the "Intel Extreme Graphics" 810 chipset, and its (just) less than three years old. OK, it wasn't sold as a games machine, but as the 810 chipset doesn't show up in the Wikipedia table you link to, I assume it has no SM support. I've enjoyed playing EVE on this machine for a couple of years, and I'd really like to continue to do so. While it is a good excuse to buy a new laptop, I'd rather spend the cash on something else, like food, rent, or 5 years of game time..... Sue
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:45:00 - [83] I get why CCP wants to eliminate SM1 support. But I think it is way to early to consider the elimination of SM2 in December. I like more than few I know play eve from laptops, in the laptop market SM2 is still the defacto standard, that most users purchase. If CCP is going to force SM3 in December, there will be a lot of users who will no longer have the flexability to play eve on their laptops, either because their laptop is their main machine or because they are road warriors. Seriously, reconsider forcing the SM3 mininum standard in December. --
bw8	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:48:00 - [84] Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Originally by: Meat Missle Why doesn't CCP form a list of everyones system specs? Steam did this a while back and allowed Valve to get an excellent picture of their target audience for Halflife 2 episodes. Good idea, I'd opt to allow a dxdiag dump etc. if asked (in fact I have by reporting bugs anyway). I'd second that...maybe build it into the next update? Also, my card does support 2.0 so i won't be affected until perhaps winter.
Dal Deinvisu Ventis Secundis	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:49:00 - [85] Moving to SM2 is a fantastic idea; I think it will be great for the game regardless of the people who insist they have no way of using a computer less than (nearly) a decade old. However, SM3 still does not have full adoption rates in "modern" computers (just barely). December 2010 would be a better time (imo).
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:50:00 - [86] Does this mean I no longer can use my 3dfx Voodoo 4MB card?
demonfurbie Minmatar 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:50:00 - [87] Edited by: demonfurbie on 13/01/2009 20:52:47 errr what i cant upgrade
Quantum Light	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:51:00 - [88] Originally by: CCP Spectrum Originally by: Ryuga VonRhaiden I've got a ZX Spectrum I like your style! How about a Timex 2068 with the emulator board? Does this meen the Linux version would bump up to the "Premium Lite" as well?
Overspark Night Walkers Cold Fusion Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:00:00 - [89] Moving to SM2 wouldn't cause me any troubles. However, dropping SM2 support would render me incapable of playing EVE on my current computers. My desktop will probably be upgraded somewhere in 2009, but I'm 100% positive I'll still be using my current laptop (IBM X41 Tablet, still a fantastic laptop, no need to upgrade) for my 2nd account in 2010, which has an Intel GMA 910, so only SM2. TL;DR: gogo Premium Lite, but don't drop SM2 support please!
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:01:00 - [90] Edited by: Andrue on 13/01/2009 21:03:47 Originally by: Kaar Originally by: Andrue If we could just render the inside of a station with environment loading disabled it would be useful. That way people relying on slightly crappy laptops can still chat to friends from their hotel room and change skills. Opening the map seems to lower the performance hit of being docked, or so i've noticed when using 3 or more accounts. Yah, probably for the same reason that disabling the loading of station environments helps. As for the comments about Valve samping their player's machines - CCP said that was built into the QR patch. That's probably where the figures they mentioned in the blog come from. IOW CCP probably have a good idea of what the playerbase runs Eve on and that's why they've come out with this plan. OTOH I have to say that getting rid of SM2 next Winter sounds harsh as far as laptops are concerned. The trouble is that those of us using a manky SM2 laptop just for chatting and market diddling are not likely to upgrade it. My plan is to run this laptop into the ground. Its quirks and it's self-repairing faults have endeared it to me. I'm curious to see how long it will struggle gamely on

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