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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 13 post(s)

CCP Fallout	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:36:00 - [1] EVE Online: Apocrypha is more than just wormholes and Tech 3 customizable ship technology. Our newest expansion is yet another step towards making sure EVE Online stays at the bleeding edge of available graphics without making unacceptable performance sacrifices. With EVE Online: Apocrypha, we want to phase out our Classic client for the new Premium Lite version, an improved, lower-end client that will make sure players with lower-end machines can enjoy the same beautiful visuals as others. We would like you to read our newest blog on the matter, and then provide us feedback in this thread. Your input will help us map out the future of EVE Online graphics.

PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:40:00 - [2] Amiga 4000 / 040 16 meg of ram / cybergraphisc,...will that run it? Just joking,...im an AMIGA user. >R<
Ryuga VonRhaiden Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:50:00 - [3] I've got a ZX Spectrum, will it be able to run 2 clients or i'm stuck to a single instance?
Gerome Doutrande Rue Morgue	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:57:00 - [4] Are you also considering laptops when looking a sm 2/3 support? What would be the implications for those when going to sm 2 and especially sm 3? (Imagine a generic remark about laptops selling better than "proper PCs" here.)
Kaya Divine Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:59:00 - [5] "making ShaderModel 2 (GeForce FX (5 series) or ATi R300 series cards or compatible) the minimum requirement and discontinue the "Classic client" version of EVE, replacing it with "Premium Lite"" Yet another CCP failure. I do hope that you will get alot of new players, because you will for sure lose huge chunk.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:00:00 - [6] Actually think i might make a long reply later, but for now, this will be enough: <3
Borgholio Minmatar Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:02:00 - [7] My second account runs on a P4 2.4ghz with a GeForce 4 ti2400 card. If the GeForce 4 series no longer works, I'll have to see if I can borrow my neighbor's old Fx-5200 that he has collecting dust on a shelf.
Asharee Intrefer Their Damnedest Day	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:02:00 - [8] I was happy to find that I could have one account sitting on the old Radeon 7500-equipped Thinkpad I just got for free. Guess that didn't last too long. Couldn't you make an option to run the client without textures and stuff... you know, to get a bit of that Elite feel.
mr bighelmet EnTech	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:03:00 - [9] It's true that SM2 been around for some time but there quite a few people who run Eve using onboard carg and if i remember right SM2 become the standard only 3 years ago.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:05:00 - [10] If we could just render the inside of a station with environment loading disabled it would be useful. That way people relying on slightly crappy laptops can still chat to friends from their hotel room and change skills.

Gone'Postal Aztec Industry	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:06:00 - [11] Sounds good to me... but my amiga can't run eve :(
Gone'Postal Aztec Industry	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:07:00 - [12] Originally by: Andrue If we could just render the inside of a station with environment loading disabled it would be useful. That way people relying on slightly crappy laptops can still chat to friends from their hotel room and change skills. This option would be nice tbh.
Digital Anarchist THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:08:00 - [13] If you want to force us to use new hardware, at least give us an option to run wireframe graphics. No need to fork and maintain 2 codebases, just the option to strip more graphics stuff if we want to.
Jai Cee M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:10:00 - [14] Pretty big fail to me, I can't upgrade my laptops graphics card so I guess I'm not able to sub after March 10th? I might be able to get a spare laptop about however that won't be supported after December so why keep up the sub? To think I had just been tempted back after the 5 day offer too :(
Aethrwolf Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:13:00 - [15] Originally by: mr bighelmet It's true that SM2 been around for some time but there quite a few people who run Eve using onboard carg and if i remember right SM2 become the standard only 3 years ago. laptop user here.. mines about 4 years old now and there is no way I'm gonna be ABLE to upgrade any time soon.. talking years here. CCP needs to take a look at how the economy worldwide is affecting their customers too. I realize you guys need to cut costs, but requiring what could end up being a significant portion of your player base to upgrade their hardware just wont work.. too many ppl are financially strapped atm. with ghost training gone the way of the dodo and now making it harder for ppl to run multiple clients, how many of your players are gonna just say no to having multiple accounts?
John Quicksilver Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:13:00 - [16] Originally by: Digital Anarchist If you want to force us to use new hardware, at least give us an option to run wireframe graphics. No need to fork and maintain 2 codebases, just the option to strip more graphics stuff if we want to. I would be interested in seeing a wireframe version of EVE. Someone make it happen!
Gidgiddonah	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:15:00 - [17] I'm just a single datapoint, but probably representative of a lot of users: Athlon XP 2700, 1 GB of RAM, Geforce FX 5200, and running on Ubuntu 8.10. I run the native Linux client with Classic graphics, and my friends are amazed at how good it looks; I can't wait to see what Premium Lite looks like. It's nice to have a heads-up from CCP regarding what hardware will be supported, I'm glad that it looks like my existing hardware will still run Eve, hopefully at no less than my current 4 fps during missions :)

CCP Zulupark	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:17:00 - [18] Originally by: Gerome Doutrande Are you also considering laptops when looking a sm 2/3 support? What would be the implications for those when going to sm 2 and especially sm 3? (Imagine a generic remark about laptops selling better than "proper PCs" here.) We are in fact considering laptops, most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3 (the GMA series as per here)

Belliana	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:18:00 - [19] Video cards are cheap as hell, and laptops keep dropping in price. It's also been common knowledge for years that if you want to play games on a laptop then you need to spend a little money and get a good one. The tears on here about not being able to play a graphics based game on ancient hardware are so sweet. Spend a little money and get up to date and quit the crying. You've got at least 10 months to do so.
Spindeln Duty.	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:18:00 - [20] If "Direct cost of maintaining old junk" + "Indirect cost of players with good **** getting worse experience due to limitations imposed by backwards compatibility and/or resources not spent on sexeh upgrades" > "Revenue from players using old junk" then drop support for old junk. Else wait 6 months and try again. I've been on the bad end of the stick myself with crappy computers, and I know it sucks. But in the end technology moves forward, and so will both the preferred and minimum specs of any game that intends to live on. Shader 2.0 AGP cards cost the equivalent of roughly 2 months of EVE time, 3.0 around 5. If this becomes reality in a year they will be even less. And then I haven't looked at ebay or similar places for non-new stuff.

Meat Missle Amarr IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:19:00 - [21] Why doesn't CCP form a list of everyones system specs? Build a small second program that will automatically take the DirectX Diagnostic output and place it into a .txt file that dumps to the users desktop. Then either have them email the contents or have the same program send the data to a server for processing? If you want an example, the Guild Wars game client has a debug button that, when clicked, gathers a massive report on all system specs to send to ArenaNet. The client is available for free download off www.guildwars.com ( no im not trying to advertise another game, just providing help ).
Jalxan Caldari Seventh Millenium	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:19:00 - [22] My laptop has an Intel 950 graphics card. Right now my laptop will not run Premium, and if Lite won't work either, then you're going to lose me as a subscriber (which would be a real shame). Personally, I'd keep Classic. Or else, reconfigure Lite to work on even lower shader levels so that way older cards can compete. This system has enough trouble as it is running two clients, so I really hope this doesn't take my laptop out of the running. However, if this does come to pass, is there any chance that the Classic art assets could be released to the public domain? This could do two things: 1. Give people the chance to mod (say Homeworld 2 or Star Trek Armada as an RTS example, or Freespace 2 for an X-Wing-ish simulation example) or some other space based game. This would make producing an Eve-based mod blatantly easy. This would give Eve an unprecedented free advertising advantage (not to mention give you an idea how good or bad Eve would translate into another genre). A lot of magazines and websites would pick up their creation, and get people interested in the mods, and through that, the actual Eve client itself. 2. Give Eve fansite builders the ability to create new high-quality 2D website assets without resorting to screenshots. I think it's a great idea. As they are not needed anymore, I say, why not?
Sprobe Jagdkommando RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:19:00 - [23] just reading the title makes me remeber very very good old days ... and a top noth OS Amiga forever
Phantom Slave JUDGE DREAD Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:22:00 - [24] Will overview settings be removed from classic client users? Or will they transfer over to Premium lite without issues? If not, what steps can be taken to ensure a smooth transition without having a portion of the population to have to redo everything on their UI?
Morgan La'Chance Caldari Dynamic Reallocation and Logistics	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:22:00 - [25] DO NOT DISCONTINUE SUPPORT OF SM 2.0 LATER Just when we get acceptable large fleet battles due to less server lag, you're gonna make them into slideshows?
Ambassador Delenn Gallente The Graduates	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:24:00 - [26] While I expect a very small minority will vocally oppose this change the majority of the player base will be impressed when the change happens. Most Eve players play other games as well and have hardware that far exceeds the minimum spec and would love to see more attention focused on improving the graphics for them. I also appreciate the premium light client for running multiple clients A well intentioned change, with a very clear explanation of the thought process behind it, exactly the way CCP should do it.
Sprobe Jagdkommando RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:26:00 - [27] WTF - will I still be able to use my Acer Aspire netbook to watch the market and switch skills?? Don't make me throw away my netbook!
Omber Zombie	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:27:00 - [28] I'm in the somewhat lucky position to have a laptop capable of running premium, but I run classic atm anyway. The reason for that is classic eats the battery fairly heavily as it is, I shudder to think how bad premium would be. Yes, I could just 'plug it in' but I'm one of those stubborn people that think laptops are for using while not sitting at your desk...
Phantom Slave JUDGE DREAD Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:27:00 - [29] Originally by: Jalxan My laptop has an Intel 950 graphics card. Right now my laptop will not run Premium, and if Lite won't work either, then you're going to lose me as a subscriber (which would be a real shame). Personally, I'd keep Classic. Or else, reconfigure Lite to work on even lower shader levels so that way older cards can compete. This system has enough trouble as it is running two clients, so I really hope this doesn't take my laptop out of the running. However, if this does come to pass, is there any chance that the Classic art assets could be released to the public domain? This could do two things: 1. Give people the chance to mod (say Homeworld 2 or Star Trek Armada as an RTS example, or Freespace 2 for an X-Wing-ish simulation example) or some other space based game. This would make producing an Eve-based mod blatantly easy. This would give Eve an unprecedented free advertising advantage (not to mention give you an idea how good or bad Eve would translate into another genre). A lot of magazines and websites would pick up their creation, and get people interested in the mods, and through that, the actual Eve client itself. 2. Give Eve fansite builders the ability to create new high-quality 2D website assets without resorting to screenshots. I think it's a great idea. As they are not needed anymore, I say, why not? Intel GMA950 supports SM 2.0, so you will be able to run Premium Lite.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:31:00 - [30] Step 2: In the Winter Expansion 2009 we are considering discontinuing support for ShaderModel 2 and make the minimum specification ShaderModel 3(GeForce 6 class cards or ATi x1300 or compatible) this seems silly CCP, why would you make older laptop unable to run anything? as I see it now, this change might have a sliver lining you aren't thinking of. Being able to remove normal maps will increase fleet fight fps. NOw I for one run prem at 100 fps, but anything I can turn off for fleet fights is a HUGE yes please. So honestly, don't give us something like the ability to turn off settings while still using our graphics card. (right now classic gives me LESS fps wtf) It sounds like this new prem lite would give me more fps. Also don't forget the whole ATI thing, some ATI cards which can run games like bioshock, don't have SM3 due to a stupid contract thing. You'll have to keep SM2 support until those cards are too old to matter anymore. Finally, does this mean we'll get an SM4 version for those sexy normal maps someday?

Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:31:00 - [31] SM 2.0 will do for me. Looking at what I know I have and friends have laying around as primary or "backup" systems I still see a lot of SM 2.0 out there. Cant say I know any stuck with lower than that. Personally unless something changes during the year, a move to SM 3.0 winter 2009 would forcefully end my (at that time) 6.5 year career in Eve, as my own setup only does SM 2.0, and isn't at the end of its life yet. I guess thats as good a reason as any to stop and look around at what other stuff is out there. After that long a bit of forced hand in stopping might not be that bad. "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Phantom Slave JUDGE DREAD Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:32:00 - [32] Originally by: Sprobe WTF - will I still be able to use my Acer Aspire netbook to watch the market and switch skills?? Don't make me throw away my netbook! Hit your Windows Key + Pause Break at the same time. Click the Hardware tab, Device Manager. Click the [+] next to Display Adapter. What does it say here? Without that information we can't tell you if you'll be able to run Premium Lite.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:33:00 - [33] Originally by: Omber Zombie I'm in the somewhat lucky position to have a laptop capable of running premium, but I run classic atm anyway. The reason for that is classic eats the battery fairly heavily as it is, I shudder to think how bad premium would be. Yes, I could just 'plug it in' but I'm one of those stubborn people that think laptops are for using while not sitting at your desk... Yeah, there's a lot of people who think since it's a laptop, it shouldn't be chained to a power-supply. I laugh, when they have to replace their battery after a year or two.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:36:00 - [34] Originally by: Gone'Postal Sounds good to me... but my amiga can't run eve :( oh no, your girlfriend can't play eve?
thelung187 Exotic Dancers Club Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:36:00 - [35] Edited by: thelung187 on 13/01/2009 19:41:24 Quote: To accommodate older PCs and those who prefer to run twenty clients of EVE while they run SETI@Home and ray trace while compressing HD movies, we will deliver what we refer to as "Premium Lite." I almost snorted orange soda out of my nose reading that. Well played, sir. edit: This sounds like a great idea. Though, I would caution AGAINST removing Shader2 support in December (I know this is currently only under consideration), but realize that many lower-end laptops run Shader 2-series cards (Radeon Xpress 1150 boards, for example, in the Dell Vostro I'm currently writing this on). Shader 1 support is understandable, but Shader 2? I think you're asking for a bit more community backlash on that one... That said, if Shader 3 becomes the de facto standard, I'll just expense myself a new PC :P
Caiman Graystock Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:38:00 - [36] Good move, flush out the deadwood. Then you realise, after taking the time to read this sentence, that you have actually wasted your time, because this somewhat long sentence is not actually part of my post, it is my signature.
Vereesa Gallente BlackWater Research and Developement	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:38:00 - [37] I think discontinuing support for the level 2 graphics card may be a bad idea. Personally, I have a PC that supports the high detail graphics, but I often have to use a very low spec computer, which is fine for mining, but not much else. I would appreciate it if the game remained supporting the lower graphics cards (level 2)
farfrael Freelancer Union Unaffiliated	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:38:00 - [38] will this new premium thingy be supported under linux from Day 1?
Sigma Epsilon	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:39:00 - [39] I am no expert on Computer Graphic cards and have no real idea what SM2 and SM3 are. To be honest I don't care. I run 3 clients on my computer and have to use the classic graphics to ensure a good frame rate. Should eve change their specs so that I can not run 3 clients then I will simply have no choice but to pack in the game I love. I guess the only way I will find out is to try it when the versions are available. Sadly CCP spend way too much time on eye candy at the expense of the content. This is another example. Not everyone can afford to upgrade their kit. The only way I can do it is to stop paying for Eve. I am sure the 1000's of new players will more than compensate for the number of vets that may be forced to quit. Only time will tell if I can play eve.
jokerb Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:41:00 - [40] Would CCP be willing to introduce a method strictly for those docked to only render in station or even less just a basic character skill change area. I only ask because I do have a tablet pc that currently will only support classic. I only use it to change skills while I'm working / class But I would not be surprised to find that there are many others in a similar boat. Again if its too much hassle/work not a big deal, just a humble request :)

Dorsai3d Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:41:00 - [41] Dropping SM2 is a -bad- idea. I understand that it would make some dev's life easier, but I have a feeling that it would affect much more than the 0.3% of your userbase than you estimate. I know that an anecdote does not make data, but I hardly think that I'm unique here: I'm a college student. Will be for a few years yet. Hence, I'm broke. I just spent about $1500 a year ago on a laptop that I hope will last me for 3 - 4 years. Since I opted for more portable (don't want a big-ass laptop when I already have to lug around behemoth textbooks) I have a graphics card that only supports SM2. Put the removal of SM2 back a while. Maybe collect some hard statistics on player compatibility. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe most are SM3 by now. But dropping SM2 this year will cost CCP subscribers. My .02 ISK.
Jonah Willis	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:42:00 - [42] Edited by: Jonah Willis on 13/01/2009 19:43:23 SM 2.0 is okay. Mandating SM 3.0 would kill my EVE account. no I'm not upgrading anytime soon.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:43:00 - [43] Originally by: Spindeln . Shader 2.0 AGP cards cost the equivalent of roughly 2 months of EVE time, 3.0 around 5. If this becomes reality in a year they will be even less. And then I haven't looked at ebay or similar places for non-new stuff. It's going to cost a **** ton of money. I've been preparing for an update, so I'll be fine. The issue is that you can't just buy a new graphics card and call it a day. Almost any part I upgrade in my current PC would require buyin a new PC. Other parts of my rig just would not be compatible. Lets not pretend, that it's not going to hurt a lot of people with low-end machines and hard RL situations. CCP can have good, well justified reasons for doing it, but I want them to make the decitions with their eyes open and not to pretend it's all sunshine and lollipops for all involved. Premium light sounds great, but you should consider extending the 2.0 shader lifespan as the situation requires. You might want to start asking or compiling info on the hardware people use. And keep us informed in advance on any desitions you make. Several months before any changes go live would be appreciated. This devblog was a nice start.
Sir Nimmo Amarr Gun Metal Priests	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:45:00 - [44] I am actually not too surprised about this and I am in full support of the first step. I have an Nvidia 8800GT and will soon be getting one of those new and sexeh 17" MBPs, so I am not at risk of not being able to play. However, I do not think that dropping 2.0 support is that great an idea if it is going to leave a lot of players unable to play along. I reckon that, as was previously suggested, taking as full a poll of everyone's system specs as possible and then seeing who will be affected would be an idea. Was this not kind of hinted at during fanfest? Or was I ingesting too much booze? I was under the impression that the key reason behind maintaining the classic client was to allow the mac and linux clients to work, but now that the macs (and presumably the linux ones as well) can run the premium clients (in developer builds at least) it makes sense to drop the extra workload. Top work chaps, keep it up!
Zoiewu	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:48:00 - [45] Have 3850 on desktop and X300 on my Thinkpad which i like to use when not at desktop or if using an alt.
Ancy Denaries Caldari Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:48:00 - [46] Semi happy about this. Premium Lite with SM 2.0 means that I will get "premium" on Linux without resorting to Wine. It's still just halfassed though, so no go for me :( I have a Nvidia 8800 so np on the SM3.0 stuff either. However, I do not believe dropping SM2.0 that fast is a good idea to be honest. There's a LOT of people stuck on old hardware. Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change.
Kesper North Caldari Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:52:00 - [47] DEVS: How will this affect users of newer laptops which have integrated graphics cards? I usually run EVE on a Macbook Pro (YAY OSX PREMIUM IS COMING! THANK YOU!) but I like to mine or run cyno alts on my crappy secondary laptop, which has an integrated nVidia graphics card. It runs Classic mode great, but in Premium I get 3 to 6 frames per second. Not really useable at all. Will Premium-lite get me at least 15-20 FPS on an integrated card? I can live with that. It's not ideal, but I'll cope.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:53:00 - [48] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 13/01/2009 19:55:54 Originally by: Kaya Divine Yet another CCP failure. I do hope that you will get alot of new players, because you will for sure lose huge chunk. They quote an estimate of 5% of players. What figures are you using, and from where do you source those figures? Originally by: Digital Anarchist If you want to force us to use new hardware, at least give us an option to run wireframe graphics. Whilst I'd not claim to know anything about EVE's client architecture, on our CAD modelling software, wireframe has been known to actually be more expensive, due I believe to optimisations made in the graphics drivers for the more usual filled-in polygons. Pure wireframe is also extremely hard to work with visually (e.g. spotting a ship's wireframe against a station or gate's wireframe), compared to the more intensive hidden-line form - you might be better off biting the bullet & reducing ships to more basic parametric objects like boxes or cones with limited polys if you're seeking the ultimate. After all a box doesn't need an art department. Edit: The other issue with wireframe is that you no longer have an easy 'pick' mechanism where you translate your 2D mouse click into a 3D selection. Most of what you click would be empty space and there's nothing to intersect with (or you're required to aim carefully at the lines). If you have two ships, both wireframes overlapping, and click the empty space that happens to cover both, you're required to do probably more work to work out what you just clicked by extrapolating which is closer. Originally by: Meat Missle Why doesn't CCP form a list of everyones system specs? Steam did this a while back and allowed Valve to get an excellent picture of their target audience for Halflife 2 episodes. Good idea, I'd opt to allow a dxdiag dump etc. if asked (in fact I have by reporting bugs anyway). Originally by: Morgan La'Chance Just when we get acceptable large fleet battles due to less server lag, you're gonna make them into slideshows? I'd be interested to hear your basis for why changing shader language, and potentially requiring an upgrade in graphics cards, will reduce performance automatically? ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Slaves666	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:54:00 - [49] What about the people with top notch machines what will they be expecting? I dont wanna run eve on a laptop or crappy single/dual core machine. Are you even advancing the graphics past what they are now cos theyre looking dated by the day and thats with the premium content.
Adele Lajouis	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:58:00 - [50] If you want to remove support for SM2, then that means I can no longer play Eve on my laptop. What does this mean? It means I have to disappear upstairs for half an hour and boot up the desktop every time I want to change skills! CCP - if you want to get rid of Shader Model 2, fair enough, but make damn sure you put a system in place BEFOREHAND so that users can change skills without having to load up a shiny SM3 client on a desktop to do so. Also, implement skill training queues so we don't have to keep logging in so frequently to train multiple skill paths.


CCP Spectrum	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:00:00 - [51] Originally by: Ryuga VonRhaiden I've got a ZX Spectrum I like your style!

Namco Balls of Steel	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:00:00 - [52] Edited by: Namco on 13/01/2009 20:01:46 For those Windows users who have no idea what video card they have and/or what shader model it supports, I can suggest grabbing this program, GPU-Z (found here: http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/). The download link is at the bottom of the page. It doesn't install any 3rd party programs or anything, it's small, and should give a lot of people a pretty good idea of what kind of video card they're dealing with. Also nice in that it tells you if the card is AGP or PCI-Express- unfortunately for many people with integrated video, it won't tell you if there's an actual AGP or PCI-Express slot available for a typical video card.
Simen123 Caldari modro B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:00:00 - [53] Some people would have a problem to upgrading to 2.0 while a upgrade to 3.0 would mean EVE stops. one of the reasons is that some people are barely getting enough money to be able to pay bills+eat. taking from my own view i will most likely be able to go direcly to 2.0 at most, 3.0 is not a option. the biggest reason is the expenses i have as a student abroad. i cant afford using my money on too much hardware for my comp, one other issue is due to me not being able to afford highend comps or even the better high lowends it would mean death to my evetime if i was forced to do 3.0 as my current comp cant handle 3.0. Being a student abroad and not knowing where ill be next yr/month it does bring me a problem to comp choice as i cant do with desktop due to it would be too much trouble packing it up to use at school. Laptop is my only choice and i have to lease my laptop couse i cant afford to actually buy it when considering the money i get each yr gets sucked up in expenses (90% to regular taxes 10% to needed stuff like food clothing++) Yes yes i know, wall of text but better to say it all at once than posting 10 times
TheCatholic	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:01:00 - [54] My primary machine is a Dell laptop with the Intel GMA X3100, integrated set. I referred to the wiki article and saw that PS 4 with DirectX 10 is supported, but the current Premium version of Eve has been unusable. Every foreground image is pixellated and unrecognizable. Any chance that Premium-Lite will change all that and let me enjoy slightly better graphics? -Dave
Kurfin	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:01:00 - [55] Maybe a very stripped down client could be released, with no 3d gfx and no ability to undock, just to change skills check market orders and so on. This would allow those with crappy laptops that only use them for the above when they are out and about to carry on as before, maybe even get it on our phones To those whose only machine won't run it, you could pick up a second hand desktop that would quite cheaply. The game has to move forward or die.
Sir Nimmo Amarr Gun Metal Priests	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:02:00 - [56] Originally by: Slaves666 Are you even advancing the graphics past what they are now cos theyre looking dated by the day and thats with the premium content. Not that I am trying to be an arse, but what? I still see people being wowed by classic graphics, Ok, to a lesser degree than before Trinity, but still. Trinity is lovely. I don't think I have seen a prettier game recently. If I am missing it, then please, let me know, as I like pretty. (That's not meant to be a snide comment, I genuinely want to see some nice new pretty games again)
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:03:00 - [57] My poor Vaio only has Shader Model 1.4 This is pretty terrible news for me. Sad. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Klauos Hauptman	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:04:00 - [58] Quote: Step 2: In the Winter Expansion 2009 we are considering discontinuing support for ShaderModel 2 and make the minimum specification ShaderModel 3(GeForce 6 class cards or ATi x1300 or compatible) I was happy to read until I got here. I can see dropping SM1 as it's getting very old and making a "lite" version. Keep SM2 support for lite or maybe explain why you're the rush to drop SM2 so quickly out of the lite client. I'm a layman about 3D and graphic cards. Does SM2 support cause more work, like Classic does? If it's for Ambulation then just make it a Premium ONLY thing.
Animenick Mobius Rising	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:06:00 - [59] Don't have a shadermodel 2.0 capable card here so I guess I'd have to give up both my accounts.
Tale Chaser	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:08:00 - [60] well, i always hate change slike this, but i can REALLY see why it needs to be done. i, for one, have been using the same graphics card for 4+ years.. and will be able to survive the march update. for 50$, i can get a card that can survive the december one as well (and this even accounts for the fact that my computer is so old it uses PCI cards)... SO... go ahead. if i cant find 50$ by decemeber, i prolly shouldnt be playin eve anyway. and i WANT eve to upgrade... because, really, do we want to play eve, if its turned into that "old" looking space MMO? no. it needs teh newness...

Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:09:00 - [61] Edited by: Andrue on 13/01/2009 20:15:05 Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Gerome Doutrande Are you also considering laptops when looking a sm 2/3 support? What would be the implications for those when going to sm 2 and especially sm 3? (Imagine a generic remark about laptops selling better than "proper PCs" here.) We are in fact considering laptops, most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3 (the GMA series as per here) Yah, that's what mine has (Acer Aspire 5610). It actually plays Eve well enough for me to fly around a bit although there was a time just before the release of the Premium client when it randomly crashed on docking. But you mention ditching SM2 in the Winter '09 expansion. That's not so clever. I don't play Eve on the laptop (I have a spanking desktop for that) but not being able to even log in to chat and check markets would be annoying. Especially when I'm stuck in a hotel room as sometimes happens. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Corinna Telum	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:09:00 - [62] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Gerome Doutrande Are you also considering laptops when looking a sm 2/3 support? What would be the implications for those when going to sm 2 and especially sm 3? (Imagine a generic remark about laptops selling better than "proper PCs" here.) We are in fact considering laptops, most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3 (the GMA series as per here) That's nice you want to buy me a new laptop. My current laptop is just fine I surf the internet, check my email and play Eve.
Aegiale Heliad	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:12:00 - [63] What will mean this regarding Linux? For the Mac there is now a Premium client, but for Linux? Btw: Please keep supporting SM2, otherwise all my secondary machines will be useless.
Alz Shado Ever Flow Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:13:00 - [64] Edited by: Alz Shado on 13/01/2009 20:15:07 But more importantly, Will the Prowler finally get it's blue spinning light back? á ----------------------------------------- "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Kaar Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:17:00 - [65] Originally by: Andrue If we could just render the inside of a station with environment loading disabled it would be useful. That way people relying on slightly crappy laptops can still chat to friends from their hotel room and change skills. Opening the map seems to lower the performance hit of being docked, or so i've noticed when using 3 or more accounts. --- ---
Achille Varzi Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:18:00 - [66] Yes to dropping SM1 - DX9 cards that came out 7 years ago support this. Definite NO to dropping SM2 - Even if we leave the laptop issue to one side (and come on lets face it, i'd be surprised if even 25% of laptops out in the eve community have SM3). Its only one generation ago that SM3 ATI cards were available. Are you telling me that a Radeon X850 isn't going to be able to run Eve come next winter?
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:18:00 - [67] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 13/01/2009 20:24:39 Originally by: Klauos Hauptman Does SM2 support cause more work, like Classic does? For those mystified as what Shader Model actually is, Microsoft's (un)help on the matter is the following, found here. I've copied some with an attempt at simplification: To translate the below, whilst avoiding a lot of technical jargon, a shader model is the ability to write small programs literally on the graphics cards which tell the card how to transform vertices (3D points) and pixels (colour points on the screen) and thus create different images. Shader Model 1: Quote: Shader Model 1 was the first shader model created in DirectX. It introduced vertex and pixel shaders to the first implementation of the programmable pipeline. Limitations: Vertex Shader Max: 128 instructions Shader Profiles: vs_1_1 Translation: First iteration of shader model language. Added vertex shaders only. (Edit: I know it says added pixel shaders but as far as I can tell, the pixel ones got deprecated and thus aren't strictly valid any more - it gets complicated). Shader Model 2: Quote: Shader Model 2 added additional capabilities to shader model 1. Limitations: Pixel Shader Max * ps_2_0 - 32 texture + 64 arithmetic * ps_2_x - 96 minimum, and up to the number of slots in D3DCAPS9.D3DPSHADERCAPS2_0.NumInstructionSlots. Vertex Shader Max: 256 instructions Shader Profiles: ps_2_0, ps_2_x, vs_2_0, vs_2_x Translation: Second iteration of shader model language. Added pixel shaders, allowing more complex effects by manipulating rendered pixels directly. Shader Model 3: Quote: Shader Model 3 added additional capabilities to shader model 2. Limitations: Pixel Shader Max: 512 minimum, and up to the number of slots in D3DCAPS9.MaxPixelShader30InstructionSlots. Vertex Shader Max: 512 minimum, and up to the number of slots in D3DCAPS9.MaxVertexShader30InstructionSlots. Shader Profiles: ps_3_0, vs_3_0 Translation: Third iteration of shader model language. Added more instructions and more room, thus allowing bigger and better features. I didn't bother adding Shader Model 4; looking it up is left as an exercise for the reader. Thus CCP's choices are (edit: after March's dropping of SM1): Maintain two separate sets of shaders, one written in SM2, the other using SM3 to enable use of more features. Maintain only one SM2 shader and accept that they can't work with the new features and thus hamper/halt their graphics improvements. Drop support for SM2 and work only with SM3. The tradeoffs should be fairly obvious; however the point the dev blog makes is that the separation only on shaders is a lot less work than maintaining two entire separate clients. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Kaya Divine Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:19:00 - [68] My subscription plan will last up to April. After March because of graphic card which will not support Premium Lite I will not be able to play. For those which subscriptions are even longer, and because of change of minimum requirements I hope that CCP will offer reimbursements. I consulted moralists to learn how to appear philosophers to find out what to think and novelists to see what I could get away with and in the end it all came down to one principle:win or die.
Gabriel Karade Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:19:00 - [69] I actually thought my 5 year old Geforce6800 would not support ShaderModel 3 but apparently it does (not that it matters as it's upgrade time). Now surely those things must be cheap to pick up these days? Besides, if you're spending 30 quid a month on 2 accounts, and struggling with bills e.t.c, surely you've got your life priorities just a little wrong?... -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
manasi Caldari Ceptacemia Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:19:00 - [70] Well theoretically the intel GMA use the x3100 video card in my Vista tablet ( which runs Classic quite well but bogs down a bit when I am on the road and have tried to connect to EvE with the premium client. None the less even if I could not play it on the tablet I welcome the upgrade! Thanks for offering the lower res stuff to some folks that just cannot get the 'latest and greatest' it shows a commitment beyond most companies to their user base. ~Manasi Come visit me at http://amuleineve.net I do not bite and value comments!

Rex Lashar November Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:27:00 - [71] 1. Please stop supporting SM2 by the end of 2009. Geforce 6-7 series are already archaic by today's standards and they can support SM3. You can get an SM3 compatible card for 20-40 bucks, or find people giving them away for practically nothing. The biggest problem its going to cause is for people who want to log in and play or change skills from their laptops that have ****ty Intel chipsets. Unfortunately, there's probably a ton of those. Players will just have to blame Intel, and then blame themselves for trying to game on an Intel graphics chipset. 2. Don't just downsample the textures for Premium Lite. Upsample them too, and create better normal maps. Some ships in EVE have TERRIBLE normal maps and they look extremely amateurish. Have the graphics settings: - very low (SM2 lo) - low (SM2 hi) - medium (SM3, current Trinity) - high (SM3, upsampled textures and maps) Then in Winter 2009: - low (SM3, downsampled) - medium (SM3, current Trinity) - high (SM3, upsampled textures and maps) 3. DirectX9.0c is getting old itself, CCP needs to look at the next gen graphics. EVE is pretty but when Trinity was released it was on par with many games out there (only in the updated areas). If you want to greatly simplify Mac/Linux support, make sure this new engine doesn't run on proprietary APIs. A new engine, Trinity 3 needs to be developed if EVE wants to stay on the cutting edge. But the problem is that OpenGL isn't competitive with DX11, and Larrabee is still more hype than hope :(
Amana Geddon	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:28:00 - [72] There is no excuse not to be able to afford a $30 video card with SM 2.0 if you're paying for EVE as it is. Most graphics hardware that comes with laptops these days can support at least that, and you've not even mentioned DX10 or SM 4.1. SM 1 can go, is it even supported in Vista as it is? ----- Knowledge is NOT power, knowledge is like coal. Lifeless lumps of facts and figures. To harness the power of knowledge one must apply the fires of understanding and creation.
Miz Cenuij	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:29:00 - [73] Genius LOL. I run Eve on a eee pc 1000h when im out and about or just lounging around on the sofa. This client upgrade will put a stop to that for myself and many many others. Ive cancelled one account this week (feel free to confirm this) owing to recent changes in the game. Go ahead with this and I will cancel all of my remaining accounts bar this one. Whilst im relativley well off, you have to laugh at a company that chooses to force a large portion of its customers to upgrade in the middle of a financial crisis. Dont you guys employ an actual financial expert? Arnt you based in a bankrupt country? The irony of it all. "Men are going to die... and i'm going to kill them"
Epitrope The Citadel Manufacturing and Trade Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:30:00 - [74] When the premium client was announced, there was a small downloadable tool that checked your system specs and said whether or not your computer would run it. One of those for this dev blog would be nice. That said, from what I can tell my desktop and my laptop should both be technically able to run the new lite premium, although neither can run the current full premium. EVE classic is at the lower end of playable on both, however, and this might confine me to sitting in station instead of playing. It's also just a bit premature to plan on dropping SM2 support... depending on how this year goes, a new computer is sadly not high on my list of necessary purchases. I'm always a little disdainful of the people who threaten to emoragequit on every dev blog, but for the first time I might be joining them - simply because I'd be unable to play.
Aganola Amarr Hungarian Riflemen Regiment Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:30:00 - [75] ok some specs here: AMD 64 3500+, 1GB DDR1 (@ 400MHz), ATI RadeOn 9800... supposedly supports PS 2.0... I would really prefer NOT TO upgrade this system in order to continue to play eve for at least another year or so... ps: anyone who says my rig is old, and I should buy a new one should donate me a couple of bucks...
Vaerah Vain	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:30:00 - [76] I have this PC with nVidia 8800 GTX that runs premium client just fine. But for my alts I have to use an AGP computer with the latest ATI AGP card I could grab in my country and a laptop (both can only run classic). I don't need insane graphics to mine... but if I can't play on those computers I'll be nerfed to play just 1 non money making character and i'll probably have to quit altogether.
Klauos Hauptman	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:32:00 - [77] Originally by: Astria Tiphareth The tradeoffs should be fairly obvious; however the point the dev blog makes is that the separation only on shaders is a lot less work than maintaining two entire separate clients. Thanks for the translations! So "lite" will require work but not as much as keeping Classic. Quote: Premium Lite will only require ShaderModel 2.0 hardware, and far less texture memory than the current Premium, ensuring good framerates on older hardware. We won't stop there - we are providing two flavors of ShaderModel 2.0 compatible shaders, currently named "lo" and "hi". It's funny they'd go through all this then drop it a few months later. Or could it be a mistype and the low/high thing is SM3? I know EVE needs to move on and I'm good with that. My "newish" laptop has SM3 just very slow.
rogersan	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:32:00 - [78] i can see the need for droping SM 1.0 but doing a way with SM 2.0 i think is to soon my desktop pc can do SM 3.0. But i have a laptop that i like to use to and that only support SM 2.0 so leave SM 2.0 in EVE
Dracira Dracc	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:34:00 - [79] Originally by: Vaerah Vain I have this PC with nVidia 8800 GTX that runs premium client just fine. But for my alts I have to use an AGP computer with the latest ATI AGP card I could grab in my country and a laptop (both can only run classic). I don't need insane graphics to mine... but if I can't play on those computers I'll be nerfed to play just 1 non money making character and i'll probably have to quit altogether. You can run them in a Windows ;-) But hey - that means that the Mac Client has to be premium ready at that time.... i hope it will be stable too......
Andrymeda	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:34:00 - [80] I'd like to see some comparative images. Improved eye candy is always good. ----------- Amused pilot

Rynlam Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:41:00 - [81] I'm lucky enough to have both a laptop and desktop with SM4.0. While the 4870 runs Premium at 1650x1080 with maximum settings without breaking a sweat, the 9300M GS in my laptop much prefers the Classic client. CCP really needs to do a hardware survey similar to Valve's, to find out what hardware people are actually running. Just because my laptop supports SM4.0 does NOT mean it is going to produce playable FPS on SM3.0 and SM4.0.
Susan Morals	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:44:00 - [82] Originally by: CCP Zulupark We are in fact considering laptops, most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3 (the GMA series as per here) Depends on your definition of new. My Thinkpad R40e has the "Intel Extreme Graphics" 810 chipset, and its (just) less than three years old. OK, it wasn't sold as a games machine, but as the 810 chipset doesn't show up in the Wikipedia table you link to, I assume it has no SM support. I've enjoyed playing EVE on this machine for a couple of years, and I'd really like to continue to do so. While it is a good excuse to buy a new laptop, I'd rather spend the cash on something else, like food, rent, or 5 years of game time..... Sue
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:45:00 - [83] I get why CCP wants to eliminate SM1 support. But I think it is way to early to consider the elimination of SM2 in December. I like more than few I know play eve from laptops, in the laptop market SM2 is still the defacto standard, that most users purchase. If CCP is going to force SM3 in December, there will be a lot of users who will no longer have the flexability to play eve on their laptops, either because their laptop is their main machine or because they are road warriors. Seriously, reconsider forcing the SM3 mininum standard in December. --
bw8	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:48:00 - [84] Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Originally by: Meat Missle Why doesn't CCP form a list of everyones system specs? Steam did this a while back and allowed Valve to get an excellent picture of their target audience for Halflife 2 episodes. Good idea, I'd opt to allow a dxdiag dump etc. if asked (in fact I have by reporting bugs anyway). I'd second that...maybe build it into the next update? Also, my card does support 2.0 so i won't be affected until perhaps winter.
Dal Deinvisu Ventis Secundis	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:49:00 - [85] Moving to SM2 is a fantastic idea; I think it will be great for the game regardless of the people who insist they have no way of using a computer less than (nearly) a decade old. However, SM3 still does not have full adoption rates in "modern" computers (just barely). December 2010 would be a better time (imo).
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:50:00 - [86] Does this mean I no longer can use my 3dfx Voodoo 4MB card?
demonfurbie Minmatar 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:50:00 - [87] Edited by: demonfurbie on 13/01/2009 20:52:47 errr what i cant upgrade
Quantum Light	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:51:00 - [88] Originally by: CCP Spectrum Originally by: Ryuga VonRhaiden I've got a ZX Spectrum I like your style! How about a Timex 2068 with the emulator board? Does this meen the Linux version would bump up to the "Premium Lite" as well?
Overspark Night Walkers Cold Fusion Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:00:00 - [89] Moving to SM2 wouldn't cause me any troubles. However, dropping SM2 support would render me incapable of playing EVE on my current computers. My desktop will probably be upgraded somewhere in 2009, but I'm 100% positive I'll still be using my current laptop (IBM X41 Tablet, still a fantastic laptop, no need to upgrade) for my 2nd account in 2010, which has an Intel GMA 910, so only SM2. TL;DR: gogo Premium Lite, but don't drop SM2 support please!
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:01:00 - [90] Edited by: Andrue on 13/01/2009 21:03:47 Originally by: Kaar Originally by: Andrue If we could just render the inside of a station with environment loading disabled it would be useful. That way people relying on slightly crappy laptops can still chat to friends from their hotel room and change skills. Opening the map seems to lower the performance hit of being docked, or so i've noticed when using 3 or more accounts. Yah, probably for the same reason that disabling the loading of station environments helps. As for the comments about Valve samping their player's machines - CCP said that was built into the QR patch. That's probably where the figures they mentioned in the blog come from. IOW CCP probably have a good idea of what the playerbase runs Eve on and that's why they've come out with this plan. OTOH I have to say that getting rid of SM2 next Winter sounds harsh as far as laptops are concerned. The trouble is that those of us using a manky SM2 laptop just for chatting and market diddling are not likely to upgrade it. My plan is to run this laptop into the ground. Its quirks and it's self-repairing faults have endeared it to me. I'm curious to see how long it will struggle gamely on

Lothris Andastar	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:04:00 - [91] Originally by: Kaya Divine My subscription plan will last up to April. After March because of graphic card which will not support Premium Lite I will not be able to play. For those which subscriptions are even longer, and because of change of minimum requirements I hope that CCP will offer reimbursements. If your PC cant support Premium Lite, then its 10+ years old, and you have better things to spend your money on (like a new PC) than eve. Bye, noone will miss you. be glad they even gave you two months heads up so u can buy a new GFX card eh?
To'Shua	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:06:00 - [92] My HP laptop (my only computer), has an ATI Radeon 9000 card, and does not support Shadermodel 2. After the expansion in March, I will have to find another solution for playing EVE or quit (after 4.5 years). Don't bother telling me to buy a new computer: like a lot of other older players who are no longer in school, I have mortgage payments, car payments, etc., and buying a new computer to replace one that still does everything else I need to do is not going to happen.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:06:00 - [93] A couple of reservations: While I suspect that getting a SM2 (or SM3) capable card isn't problematic in most desktops, as the cost for buying such a video card is relatively low. But a lot of laptops and integrated video cards aren't that lucky, and upgrading entire systems IS a big deal. My main systems (at home) are more then capable to run SM3, that's not what I'm worried about. But some of the locations I'm a I have only access to older laptops and/or desktops (that I can't upgrade). While I don't plan to do combat on those machines, I do like to change my skills and check the market, maybe some sort of compromise could be made for such activities. Suggestions: web based interface, a very light mode that disables 3D and only allows in-station activities (trade/skill change/production), a separate program that allows only skill change and trade. While requiring your players to upgrade within a certain time frame isn't that much to ask, but please keep in mind that a lot of countries have a write of time for computers of 5 years, and the computers bought 4 years ago didn't all have top of the line computers. Your players aren't all hardcore 3D fanatics, and many will appreciate great 3D graphics (like myself), not all of them are folks that would buy a computer with a 'high end' video card (especially laptop users). Isn't making a two jumps in system requirements within a 6-9 month period a bit much on your fans? The Classic client is pretty tested and reasonably stable, in my experience the premium client wasn't. I have to admit I haven't 'really' tried it in a while (and am updating my clients now and trying it out), but I have not much faith that I can run four clients with the same kind of performance as I do now with the Classic client (Q6600, 8800GTS640, 4x1200*1600).
Weeka Lyonesse. KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:09:00 - [94] Originally by: Miz Cenuij you have to laugh at a company that chooses to force a large portion of its customers to upgrade in the middle of a financial crisis. And which "large portion" would that be? To actually demand that a contemporary game supports hardware that is undeniably outdated, is optimistic at best. If it leads to better performance, I'm all for it. As being said we're talking like 20 bucks here for desktops, do something for your economy, upgrade.
Darjin Maljoran	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:09:00 - [95] With the Lite version my desktop shoudn't have a (large) problem (gforce 6800, SM).But i'm frequently not at home and at my desktop. But i can't update my laptops (Intel 915GMS, only SM2) and a only 1 year old eee-pc (Intel 915GMS), which are used for eve-playing during travel. For me, SM2 support is important after 2009!

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:10:00 - [96] Originally by: Amana Geddon SM 1 can go, is it even supported in Vista as it is? We are currently using the August 2007 version of Microsoft's DirectX SDK for the Premium edition. It doesn't support SM1.

Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:12:00 - [97] Originally by: Lothris Andastar If your PC cant support Premium Lite, then its 10+ years old, and you have better things to spend your money on (like a new PC) than eve. Bye, noone will miss you. be glad they even gave you two months heads up so u can buy a new GFX card eh? I hate this attitude. My laptop has shader model 1.4, and there is no way I am upgrading it, I just can't afford to what with the way the economy is going. I bought it specifically because it could run Eve, and at the time that meant buying a ú1200 machine. It may be "junk" by modern standards, but actually it is perfectly adequate for general family use (it's a Sony PCG-K115Z), and I can use it to get my Eve fix when I am away from home. If there is a real need to up the minimum specs then I guess I have to accept that, but what exactly is it that CCP are adding that Classic couldn't represent? I am guessing nothing. Rendering my laptop unable to play Eve, the very reason I choose this specific machine, just because coding and maintaining Classic takes some effort is damn insulting. Gah.
Leeham	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:12:00 - [98] I hate to disturb the argument here regarding people being excluded but will Premium Light graphically represent prenium or classic? I still prefer the classic colour schemes over the generic metallic green/silver/gold

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:14:00 - [99] Originally by: Leeham I hate to disturb the argument here regarding people being excluded but will Premium Light graphically represent prenium or classic? Premium Light will be an "auto-generated SM2 version" of the current Premium art content (which is SM3).

Salligtatorp	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:17:00 - [100] Edited by: Salligtatorp on 13/01/2009 21:17:02 I've 2 computers, one of them is EEE PC, that i always have with myself, and i use it to play EVE at the university, and at home at the week-end, and using my normal PC for the rest of the time. EEE PC is letting me to log in, change skills, trade, fly around, mine, even to fight a little bit without much risks. But still on minimum settings, FPS is not high and not enough for comfort. If I'll not be able to start up Premium Lite on EEE PC, i'll probably stop playing and paying EVE. The same goes for SM3, netbooks like EEE PC or Aser Aspire One, probably MSI WIND too are not SM3 compatible. It's easy to say that graphic cards are cheap, but what to do with notebooks? Buy a new one each time? Premium Lite may be a good idea, if it will require the same CPU-GPU power as Classic, if it will need more, a lot of people like me, will be just thrown away. SM3 is definitely not a great idea. It's just too fast to drop 2 SM levels in less than a year. "We estimate that about 95% of all subscribers currently have hardware that is SM2 compatible. We further predict that in q4 this year over 97% of subscribers will have SM3 capable hardware. This means that an estimate of anywhere from 3%-5% of current subscribers would have to update their computers or graphics cards to be able to continue playing" Sure, 3-5%, but at the current world situation, i guess every % counts. Why not to make a possibility to take off space rendering? To make it a pure tactics mode? Like in EVE we have a tactical view option, to do something like that, take away the free camera rotations or maybe even any visualisation. EVE is a space game, not a simulator, you can do most of the stuff only using the overview scanner, ship control panel and neocom panel.T hose on low-end computers, may like it

Kaya Divine Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:17:00 - [101] Originally by: Lothris Andastar Originally by: Kaya Divine My subscription plan will last up to April. After March because of graphic card which will not support Premium Lite I will not be able to play. For those which subscriptions are even longer, and because of change of minimum requirements I hope that CCP will offer reimbursements. If your PC cant support Premium Lite, then its 10+ years old, and you have better things to spend your money on (like a new PC) than eve. Bye, noone will miss you. be glad they even gave you two months heads up so u can buy a new GFX card eh? I do think that this is sad trolling, because if you don`t know answer, you shouldn't answer on statement or question.
Malrock Caldari Mea Culpa Enigma Nexus-Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:18:00 - [102] Edited by: Malrock on 13/01/2009 21:24:56 You know, i dont understand all the fuss. Id say most of the gamers (from avrage and above) upgrade PC at least once in 2-3 years, Enthusiasts upgrade PC every 6 months, so why all the fuss about going on SM3 ? Yes i do know that laptops arent the best things to play eve and classic made many of them playable but lets face it, you wouldnt go into combat on the low end laptop anyways, most people use them for mining or hauling or scouting, at least ones i know (excuse me for generalization). Screaming blody murder and threatening to leave eve is just silly for such issue. If you cant afford new graphical card, well, cancel subsrciption for 6 months, buy new graphics card and resume sub, problem solved. And just for a fact, SM4 is available on cards thats price starts from 65$, if you dont belive me just go on Tom's site and check the best graphics cards for your money January 2009 As for reasoning, i think eve graphical quality is POOR even on premium, theres tons of ways to make it better, yes, needs better hardware but the evolution will be worth it as immersion will be far greater then basic sprite pew-pew you can see on java/flash games. Id like to see CCP really crank up the graphics, but at the same time id like to see more control over the engine so you can better profile the client depending on what are you doing (extreame quality for fraps / mining / exploration, moderate quality for missioning, low quality for pvp for better responsivness), so instead of blasting CCP for keeping up with hardware evolution all of you should actualy be asking more control over client optimization & profiling. And just for argument sake - im running on 4 year old PC, the only thing that has been constantly (at least once a year) upgraded is my graphics card, at current times its 8800GT - a true beast, well worth of its money (100 $)
Elgae Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:21:00 - [103] I think CCP has lost its grip on the whole eve thing anyway... Why are you surprised with this move...
Lockefox Caldari Darkmatter Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:23:00 - [104] Completely understand and support the move to better graphics/client/etc. But allow me my 2 cents. I have older, still decent laptops that would not be able to handle the second half (shader 3) upgrades, and I would really prefer not to scrap my lesser machines. Just thought I'd offer my comment if for nothing more than to be added to the statistic pool. ~Locke
Narni	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:23:00 - [105] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Gerome Doutrande Are you also considering laptops when looking a sm 2/3 support? What would be the implications for those when going to sm 2 and especially sm 3? (Imagine a generic remark about laptops selling better than "proper PCs" here.) We are in fact considering laptops, most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3 (the GMA series as per here) Oh, so Intel bought shares in your company? Never used Intel, never will.
Akularen Amarr Nomads Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:26:00 - [106] As someone mentioned before decent graphics cards, are SO cheap nowadays. if you still think they're too expensive, there's always ebay
chawks	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:26:00 - [107] The laptop issue is the key. Even if only 5% of subscribers use machines with less than SM2, is the cost of having two versions more than the loss of 5% of subscriptions? My guess is no. Also, many users may have a pc that supports SM2+ but at times play using a laptop with less than SM2. That could be a further 5% or more that impacts the time available to play and possibly makes users less likely to stay subscribed. My laptop has Nvidia 8400GS and my desktop has Nvidia 8800 something or other (both SM4), so I am not impacted, but just my 2 cents.
To'Shua	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:27:00 - [108] Originally by: Lothris Andastar Originally by: Kaya Divine My subscription plan will last up to April. After March because of graphic card which will not support Premium Lite I will not be able to play. For those which subscriptions are even longer, and because of change of minimum requirements I hope that CCP will offer reimbursements. If your PC cant support Premium Lite, then its 10+ years old, and you have better things to spend your money on (like a new PC) than eve. Bye, noone will miss you. be glad they even gave you two months heads up so u can buy a new GFX card eh? You might want to check your data before speaking. My HP laptop, purchased new in the spring of 2004 (HP Pavilion zv5160us) uses an ATI Radeon 9000, but does not support Shadermodel 2. I purchased this computer for its ability to run EVE, as well as do all the other household computing needs, like online banking, email, internet access, word processing, etc. A five-year old computer is not that unusual, if it is still doing everything it needs to do. Requiring me to buy a new computer just to play a game, and just to save some programmers some effort in producing prettier pictures, doesn't strike me as being a good thing.
lagrange gormo Gallente Echolalia. Shangri-La.	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:28:00 - [109] Seeing as we're well and truly into a global recession, what makes CCP really think we have money to spend on new equipment on top of subscriptions and internet connections. Yes basic graphics cards that can handle this are cheap but when you have little money, a graphics card is a total waste. Of course this has been the general attitude from the computer industry for quite some time, the end user has bottomless pockets and will upgrade their hardware. OK, CCP have been better than most by supporting "obselete" hardware for this long but given the current financial climate, they showing they run on assumptions undisturbed by reality. Given recent events, somewhat shocking for an Icelandic company. This move is foolhardy at best and will lose CCP customers
Ervol Libra Amarr Invenio Inceptum	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:29:00 - [110] I won't be able to use my laptop anymore then

farfrael Freelancer Union Unaffiliated	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:30:00 - [111] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Leeham I hate to disturb the argument here regarding people being excluded but will Premium Light graphically represent prenium or classic? Premium Light will be an "auto-generated SM2 version" of the current Premium art content (which is SM3). How about Linux? Are you planning to continue supporting this OS?
Gone'Postal Aztec Industry	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:33:00 - [112] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Gone'Postal Sounds good to me... but my amiga can't run eve :( oh no, your girlfriend can't play eve? huh?
Too Quacky	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:35:00 - [113] Well luckily I can go on with Eve but alas a few friends of mine will not be able to use this lite client. What is going on here is that Zulupark bought a bit bag of discounted nails from the hardware store before he started at CCP and he is doing his damndest to drive them all into the coffin. Never forget the carrier nerf!
Kaganis Warmonkey Caldari Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:37:00 - [114] Quote: Step 1: In Apocrypha, March 10th, we discontinue support for ShaderModel 1, making ShaderModel 2 (GeForce FX (5 series) or ATi R300 series cards or compatible) the minimum requirement and discontinue the "Classic client" version of EVE, replacing it with "Premium Lite" That shouldn't be too hard to meet, if you've got a graphic card that could meet EVE's original minimum specs, you can upgrade it pretty cheap to an old AGP card that can meet these. Quote: Step 2: In the Winter Expansion 2009 we are considering discontinuing support for ShaderModel 2 and make the minimum specification ShaderModel 3(GeForce 6 class cards or ATi x1300 or compatible) This is more if a problem. ShaderModel 3 cards are generally PCIe cards, so not the easy upgrade as the AGP ShaderModel 2 cards. Anyone that falls under the specs will need to upgrade graphics card, motherboard, CPU, RAM, etc. While most people are feeling the economic pinch, that's quite a bit to spend. Please at least consider leaving step 2 a bit longer. Perhaps until Windows 7 is out? Yeah, laptops are stuffed either way.
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Duragon Pioneer Group GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:37:00 - [115] honestly this... means no more crappy scythe model \o/ (omg is that classic model FUUUUUUGLY), now do something about the other weird ones chop chop (y'know like Moa, celestis, navitas...)
SniperWo1f Omega Enterprises 0mega Factor	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:40:00 - [116] Well im gonna put some quick points down and reserve this spot for later i have a really good laptop that can run two premium clients no issues i however run classic graphics. why because eve premium looks awful all the ships just look ugly and half finished compared to the classic versions . now premium is more detailed more flashy but it's dry and lacks personality . the ships pf eve classic are a real achievement considering the resources that were available to make them. consider the rapier as a perfect example the classic rapier has those two spinning flashlights and the flickering headlight . it's busy looking like it's alive and actually something that is working and running . the premium version is just dead pixels it has no personality no life. tbh if ccp implements this then you gotta allow players to paint their ships even if it only appears for their own ship and only to them .
Tellnan Matkiel Gallente The Industrial Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:41:00 - [117] It is only anecdotal on my part, but I would seriously suggest that your estimate/guess that you will only lose 3-5% of your player base come December if you go through with this is erroneous. This coming year will not be condusive to most people upgrading systems, or even cards in some cases.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:42:00 - [118] Originally by: Morgan La'Chance DO NOT DISCONTINUE SUPPORT OF SM 2.0 LATER Just when we get acceptable large fleet battles due to less server lag, you're gonna make them into slideshows? While I can agree on not discontinue SM2 so soon. I must say that your logic is failed. Pixel shaders are procedures executed per pixel on the screen. Its completely irrelevant how many ships are on the screen the shaders will be processed for each pixel having 400 ships in grid only only you looking at your ship pretty close. I tend to think SM2 should be kept to at least MID 2010
Xodd Hil Gallente Anunnaku The Wrong Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:43:00 - [119] Well, let's start: Although I would be unable to play EVE on my tabletPC, I would still be OK with dropping SM1. But, dropping SM2 would mean that I can't play with my laptop, which has an Ati 9700, SM2.0. The only way I would be OK with that is: -implementing long (say, 1 week or more) skill training list -eg. browser-only implementation of character, market interaction, and anything else not requiring docking out. Unless those are not implemented, I'm very much against this idea of dropping SM2.0. Upgrading a laptop is not a 60$ expense, especially one that is sufficiently capable for this "premium lite", during these financially troubling times or later. Yes, my desktop has an up-to-date VGA, 4850, but I won't carry THAT around.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:45:00 - [120] Originally by: Too Quacky Well luckily I can go on with Eve but alas a few friends of mine will not be able to use this lite client. What is going on here is that Zulupark bought a bit bag of discounted nails from the hardware store before he started at CCP and he is doing his damndest to drive them all into the coffin. Never forget the carrier nerf! What about his epic 'answer any question you ask' thread. Is that in or out?

Hikaru Kai	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:46:00 - [121] Originally by: Rex Lashar 1. Please stop supporting SM2 by the end of 2009. Geforce 6-7 series are already archaic by today's standards and they can support SM3. You can get an SM3 compatible card for 20-40 bucks, or find people giving them away for practically nothing. The biggest problem its going to cause is for people who want to log in and play or change skills from their laptops that have ***ty Intel chipsets. Unfortunately, there's probably a ton of those. Players will just have to blame Intel, and then blame themselves for trying to game on an Intel graphics chipset. ... SNIP* ... 3. DirectX9.0c is getting old itself, ... SNIP ... This. To all you cheapskate laptop owners who think gaming on a laptop is elite, because you can do it poolside while sipping an Appletini, grow a pair.
Kazella	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:49:00 - [122] HP nx6325 Laptop here with an ATI Radeon Xpress 1150 graphic chipset. So I guess I am in my final days... As a single Dad EVE is the only game I have little scraps of time to play.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:51:00 - [123] Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 13/01/2009 21:51:49 CCP is making my wife realy happy this and last year ... I am considering quiting the game for the 3rd time or so in the last 10 months... I mean one more such a crap announcement and I'll defo quit ... (supporting SM2/3 and actualy offering good performance is not the same CCP, don't **** off your subscribers even more)
clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:52:00 - [124] Originally by: Miz Cenuij Genius LOL. Whilst im relativley well off, you have to laugh at a company that chooses to force a large portion of its customers to upgrade in the middle of a financial crisis. Dont you guys employ an actual financial expert? Arnt you based in a bankrupt country? The irony of it all. This. Fine, get rid of SM1, huge advantage there. But getting rid of SM2 doesn't seem to offer you any advantage.
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.01.13 21:53:00 - [125] Originally by: Kaya Divine "making ShaderModel 2 (GeForce FX (5 series) or ATi R300 series cards or compatible) the minimum requirement and discontinue the "Classic client" version of EVE, replacing it with "Premium Lite"" Yet another CCP failure. I do hope that you will get alot of new players, because you will for sure lose huge chunk. Seriously if you dont have a sm2 card in your pc by now you should upgrade from the 286 or quit trying to play games.
M1AU Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:00:00 - [126] Yea, how about Linux? Plenty of users already stated that they want to know what Linux plans do you have and I want to know that too. Thanks in advance.
Beebopa Lula	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:01:00 - [127] I currently have a GeForce 4200 Ti graphics card, which when I bought it in Q4/2002 was pretty much the best card available. Anyway, it seems this will not be supported. Problem is, all the newer cards seem to require a PCI Express slot, which I don't have - only PCI and AGP. So it's not just a case of a new card, but a whole new PC. However, my PC (1800 GHz Pentium 4 running XP with 1 GB RAM) is absolutely fine for everything else I use it for, and it can also run two clients satisfactorily as well. So I won't be upgrading it just to play EVE. This is a real shame, but the hassle and cost of setting up a new PC do not justify it.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:02:00 - [128] my desktop supports sm3 (nvidia 7600 gs) that I got for somewhere between $50-90 almost 2 years ago now (spring 07). although it kinda coughs at running premium clients. although that probably has something to do more with my system in general. I'm wondering what running premium light will be like, currently run 2 classic clients at a time. my laptop, supports sm2 (ati mobility radeon x700), purchased a bit over 3 years ago (fall 05). it wasn't exactly purchased for gaming, but well it ended up playing a lot of games. I was planning on buying a new comp over summer, but right now I don't know if that will happen.
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:03:00 - [129] Originally by: Kaya Divine My subscription plan will last up to April. After March because of graphic card which will not support Premium Lite I will not be able to play. For those which subscriptions are even longer, and because of change of minimum requirements I hope that CCP will offer reimbursements. It's not ccp's fault you have a crap computer.
Salpad Caldari Carebears with Attitude	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:05:00 - [130] I've got some kind of NVDIA 6800, so I am safe, but I think a better benchmark of exclusion-of-existing-players would be the year-of-purchase. I bought my computer in late 2005, and as far as I knew the graphics card in it was farly high-end at that time. So what users are you excluding? Probably those that bought their computers in 2003, and maybe also most of those that bought their computers in 2004. I think this is the more important figure to look at: How old is one's computer allowed to be, in order to still be able to play EVE, assuming that one purchased a mid-range computer in that year. Do you want EVE to be able to run on computers that are 3 years old? 4.5 years old? 6 years old? What? One nice feature of MMOs is that they can run on fairly weak computers. The system requirements for both World of Warcraft and EVE have always been low. With the recent Wrath of the Lich King expansion, it became possible to crank the graphics quality up so high that the game simply froze on my computer, so I had to alt+tab out and close down the program, then log in again and reduce the settings (mostly view distance). But WoW still can run on fairly low-end computers, with the graphics quality set to lowest. Why not do the same with EVE? Excluding players who can't do ShaderModel 2, this spring, might be a good idea, but excluding players who can't do ShaderModel 3 at the end of this year? That might be a year too early...

Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:05:00 - [131] Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII It's not ccp's fault you have a crap computer. Otoh it isn't our fault they are increasing the minimum specs just to make their life easier.
LeonTaki	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:05:00 - [132] Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII Originally by: Kaya Divine "making ShaderModel 2 (GeForce FX (5 series) or ATi R300 series cards or compatible) the minimum requirement and discontinue the "Classic client" version of EVE, replacing it with "Premium Lite"" Yet another CCP failure. I do hope that you will get alot of new players, because you will for sure lose huge chunk. Seriously if you dont have a sm2 card in your pc by now you should upgrade from the 286 or quit trying to play games. Well, not everybody can affort the run the client. Its not only the graphics card but also the rest. I still wanne know how i can upgrade my Laptop.. so stop the stupid remarks...
Rillek Ratseye Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:07:00 - [133] My normal eve machine will run all this without problems...I got an ATI x3850. My concerns are big though. The last 2 years I have introduced 3 new people to EVE (all still play ). They were introduced to eve on my secondary machine - my old primary. Its an Athlon XP 2800+ with a Radeon 9700. (Supports SM2) Its old, yes. But it runs alot of the games I love to play with my friends. - Civ3, Starcraft, Age of Empires 2 etc. If my secondary machine couldn't run eve back when I showed my friends EVE, they would never have started. I fear I'm not the only one who have an "old secondary" computer that is used or will some day be used to introduce new people to the game. Also any hardware statistics run from the client wont really catch these "old secondary computers" - so they might be overlooked. -- Ratseye
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:08:00 - [134] Originally by: Meat Missle Why doesn't CCP form a list of everyones system specs? Build a small second program that will automatically take the DirectX Diagnostic output and place it into a .txt file that dumps to the users desktop. Then either have them email the contents or have the same program send the data to a server for processing? If you want an example, the Guild Wars game client has a debug button that, when clicked, gathers a massive report on all system specs to send to ArenaNet. The client is available for free download off www.guildwars.com ( no im not trying to advertise another game, just providing help ). valve system survey anyone?
Furb Killer Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:08:00 - [135] Laptop with X700M here. When i bought it, it was pretty much the best graphics card for laptops (performance/power consumption), and it runs classic without any issues at all. Only reason it cant run premium is because ati introduced SM3.0 one generation later than nvidia. I can fully understand why you would drop SM1.0 support, but while i probably got another laptop before end of the year, i think it is early to drop SM2.0 support. When premium graphics were introduced, eve online was on many IT news websites because they kept supporting classic graphics for old computers, instead of screwing them. It would be a bit strange to screw them anyway now.
Al Mine	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:12:00 - [136] I'm running on a Intel GMA 950 Laptop which is able to run SM2.0. I will not get a desktop just for better graphics while mining, as they are real energy suckers. It IS a big difference if you have a 35W Notebook or a 350W desktop running 16h/day! If I will find out, that one day I cannot run eve anymore and still have gametime left, I want a refund.
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:14:00 - [137] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII It's not ccp's fault you have a crap computer. Otoh it isn't our fault they are increasing the minimum specs just to make their life easier. No but do you expect a reimbursement from every company that improves its users experience?
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:14:00 - [138] Originally by: Avon Otoh it isn't our fault they are increasing the minimum specs just to make their life easier. Whilst a valid point, as a dev myself I can empathise with the attitude that says 'stop asking us to make the client better and less laggy and better looking, unless you let us update the damn thing properly'. In other words, one could equally argue this is some of the players' fault for asking for an improved client. It's all swings and roundabouts.
Banni Vinda Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:19:00 - [139] According to the latest Steam Hardware Survey, the distibution of graphics cards looks something like this: DirectX 10 GPUs 48.84% DirectX 9 Shader Model 2b and 3.0 GPUs 29.23% DirectX 9 Shader Model 2.0 GPUs 7.83% DirectX 8 GPUs and below 14.10% I'd guess that Steam users are amongst the most leading-edge when it comes to keeping their hardware up-to-date, so I'm pretty confident EVE's userbase statistics wouldn't exceed these. Therefore at least 21% of players would be forced out by the dropping of SM2.0 (possibly as high as 51%, depending on where the line between SM 2b and SM 3.0 falls). I'd be very interested to find out how Zulupark came up with his numbers, since they seem significantly different from the Steam results. I second the motion to keep SM2.0 support as long as possible. My main PC is a gaming laptop, so that wouldn't have a problem, however my backup/travelling laptop (EEE 1000H) could be negatively affected. Quite disappointing, since its EVE-ability was at worth at least 50% of my decision to buy it (the other half being its awesome battery life and its ultra-portability)
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:20:00 - [140] Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII No but do you expect a reimbursement from every company that improves its users experience? Premium and Classic are two very seperate beasts, and together they allow for the best of both worlds. However, CCP want to drop Classic to make less work for themselves, it will do nothing to improve the experience of the people who already run Premium. Your arguement is flawed. This isn't about making Eve better for the players.

Glassback Body Count Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:21:00 - [141] Originally by: Andrue If we could just render the inside of a station with environment loading disabled it would be useful. That way people relying on slightly crappy laptops can still chat to friends from their hotel room and change skills. Just turn off station environment under display & Graphics?
Morgan La'Chance Caldari Dynamic Reallocation and Logistics	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:22:00 - [142] Originally by: Beebopa Lula I currently have a GeForce 4200 Ti graphics card, which when I bought it in Q4/2002 was pretty much the best card available. Anyway, it seems this will not be supported. Problem is, all the newer cards seem to require a PCI Express slot, which I don't have - only PCI and AGP. So it's not just a case of a new card, but a whole new PC. However, my PC (1800 GHz Pentium 4 running XP with 1 GB RAM) is absolutely fine for everything else I use it for, and it can also run two clients satisfactorily as well. So I won't be upgrading it just to play EVE. This is a real shame, but the hassle and cost of setting up a new PC do not justify it. Now, while I'm all for keeping SM2, this really does scream "upgrade". I'm not trolling you when I'm saying that you can get a computer that has four or five times the performance of your current one for 100 USD.
IonHammer Minmatar Black Avatar Lost Sheep Domain	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:22:00 - [143] like the first guys i have an old amiga and old zx spectrum how about an old trs 80 will that play it j/k I must say i have been looking for an excuse to upgrade my PR 3 ghz amd 64 agp 1950 pro box now i guess i can since i like to run 4 clients and use folding@home while running prime sequence search's with matlab. out with the old in with the new. still thing you might loose some custoemr's though if the RL E keeps burping many upgrades will be put on the bac burner along with food and beer in eve cups.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:23:00 - [144] Originally by: Avon This isn't about making Eve better for the players. Read the dev blog again. Yes it is. Time is saved not maintaining an entire separate client - it doesn't take a genius to work out that more time for other features does improve EVE, albeit indirectly.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:24:00 - [145] Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Originally by: Avon This isn't about making Eve better for the players. Read the dev blog again. Yes it is. Time is saved not maintaining an entire separate client - it doesn't take a genius to work out that more time for other features does improve EVE, albeit indirectly. No, it just means you can maintain the current levels with less staff.
Groox noli turbare circulos meos	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:24:00 - [146] Edited by: Groox on 13/01/2009 22:25:25 So I can't play with my laptop later this year :( I bought it Intel dual core rig year ago. Only supports SM2.0 graphics. btw. are there any budget class laptops aviable with SM3.0+ support these days?
Camilo Cienfuegos Earned In Blood	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:24:00 - [147] I was one of the major whiners about SM3 only support when the Premium content was released, and I would just like to say this: Thank you CCP. You make a great MMOG for us to immerse ourselves in, and you do listen to your client base (from time to time/when it suits you! ). Keep up the excellent work!
Eventy One Magellan Exploration and Survey	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:26:00 - [148] Ummm .. its not always about the hardware. I have an nVidia 7900 and a dual/dual core but run Linux. I don't run your linux client, I run everything thought wine. But not all of the graphics issues have been worked out in Linux. Every time I've upgraded to premium its stopped working for me in linux. This is likely (I believe) because OpenGL doesn't have full support for the features you're taking advantage of in Premium. I suppose Premium-lite may fix things, but I'm not going to hold my breath. I will dread this change, because more likely than not I expect it to prevent me from playing EVE. .. I guess I'll have to stay tuned ...
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:27:00 - [149] Originally by: Beebopa Lula I currently have a GeForce 4200 Ti graphics card, which when I bought it in Q4/2002 was pretty much the best card available. Anyway, it seems this will not be supported. Problem is, all the newer cards seem to require a PCI Express slot, which I don't have - only PCI and AGP. So it's not just a case of a new card, but a whole new PC. Whilst I don't know what country you're in, this 6200 AGP for sale for 30 pounds is illustrative that you can still get AGP cards. That one according to Nvidia's own site will support Shader Model 3.
Demme	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:27:00 - [150] Adapt or Die? SM2 - I adapt SM3 - I die Preparing emo rage quit for late 2009

Belliana	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:27:00 - [151] Originally by: Beebopa Lula Problem is, all the newer cards seem to require a PCI Express slot, which I don't have - only PCI and AGP. So it's not just a case of a new card, but a whole new PC. You can buy an agp card that will run eve just fine for cheap. You really should look at hardware a little before starting the tears and going emo on everyone. Here's a PCI video card that's more than you'll need to play eve for years to come. Why on earth you're complaining about having to replace your whole pc is beyond me. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814187041
Shirley Serious Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:29:00 - [152] ok, I think this machine will cope through to winter 2009. Fair enough. But, what about Vista? or Windows 7? Will I have to purchase a machine with those installed? Or can I continue with XP? Yes. Yes, I am.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:29:00 - [153] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 13/01/2009 22:32:36 Originally by: Avon No, it just means you can maintain the current levels with less staff. You know something about CCP's staff plans? Do tell. I'm sure everyone would be keen to know about the redundancies planned as a result of this Shader Model decision. Originally by: Shirley Serious But, what about Vista? or Windows 7? Will I have to purchase a machine with those installed? Or can I continue with XP? They dropped support for Windows 2000 in March 2008 (if memory serves). Given that and the apparent resistance of a fair few to upgrade to Vista and I suspect there's plenty of life in XP yet. I sure hope so too ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
yunger Big Shadows Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:30:00 - [154] Both my current computer and the old rig can use sm 3.0 but i think the december 2009 part should be reconsidered, Give it atleast 6 more months.
Eraggan Sadarr Phoenix Tribe	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:33:00 - [155] I really wish i COULD run it on my Amiga. Now that's a wonderful piece of equipment Eve Market Scanner - Marketlog comparisons
Xori Ruscuv Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:33:00 - [156] Nono... nononono... nooo. I run premium client on my primary machines. Can run two clients in big fights easily, etc. However, when I'm out of town on vacation, business, etc. I just take my old Sony Vaio with me, load up the classic client in order to switch skills and get BPOs in my labs. Unless you give us a training queue, this is a bad idea. I'm not sure many players are going to want to buy some $2500 alienware PC replacement just so they can train skills and do mundane database crap when they're on the road, etc.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:34:00 - [157] http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-095-OK That's a GeForce 6 series card, right? AGP, SM3.0, and ú35. OK so that's a whole 2 months EVE sub, but I'm not sure the sky is falling here. -- 249km locking?
Reean Takari	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:34:00 - [158] Okay Guys... This change from to SM2 minimus will delegate my lap top to the trash heap, for the purpose of Eve. Well.. even though the old gal is a still doing the job, sooner or later it was bound to get beyond it's usable life. And 9 months or so later. minimum SM3 presents problems. Compatability problems with older codec output formats for me. However, by your own estimates, you'd better go talk to the Economists you have consulting you before dropping the axe on 2.0. Your thought that - By the third quarter the current ninty five percentile will run out and buy new cards to bring you total base to 97%? I know we gamers are on the bleeding edge of technolgy.. but there's another bleed going on.... cash. Get some advice on the amount of available cash (disposable funds)predicted as "available" by the last quarter of 2009 "world wide"... you may want to "drag" the 3.0 minimum out a bit.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:34:00 - [159] Originally by: James Lyrus http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-095-OK That's a GeForce 6 series card, right? AGP, SM3.0, and ú35. OK so that's a whole 2 months EVE sub, but I'm not sure the sky is falling here. How do I install that in my laptop? Got a guide or HOWTO? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:35:00 - [160] Here is a question, if you are going to kill off SM2 support, why develop Premium Lite at all if all you are only gona get 9months payback? Why in that case would you not let classic exist until winter expansion? I am just trying to grasp the logic of the move in winter. -------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box

Girabaldi D'Protagonist Minmatar In Theory.	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:35:00 - [161] The one ting that I really want to see.. is implementation of SLI / Crossfire support so that those of use running dual cards of whatever flavor can take full advantage and run 6 accounts if we want to on 3 or 4 monitors.. Well maybe not that crazy but allow me to run three on a pair of monitors without bogging down.. utilize the awesomeness of the cross connected Video cards.. 2GB of video mem cut in half cuz y'all (thats one of those down south words for all you yankees and foriegners)won't support the SLI / Crossover stuff. Thanks.. PS. Can't wait to see what Tech 3 has to offer and (insert pipedream here) would really love to see astroid belts moved to exploration / scanned out..
Darth Felin	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:36:00 - [162] SM 1.0 have to be scrapped long time ago even if it will cost me a laptop that unable to support 2.0, but second step is too harsh imho.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:37:00 - [163] CCP should do a survey to determine exactly how many people run PS 2.0 and whether they are just lazy desktop users that fail at upgrading or are laptop users that cannot upgrade easily. Personally I'm all for axing PS 1.0 and 2.0 today. Out with the ancient, in with the almost ancient! -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Salpad Caldari Carebears with Attitude	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:40:00 - [164] Originally by: Destination SkillQueue It's going to cost a **** ton of money. I've been preparing for an update, so I'll be fine. The issue is that you can't just buy a new graphics card and call it a day. Almost any part I upgrade in my current PC would require buyin a new PC. Other parts of my rig just would not be compatible. Lets not pretend, that it's not going to hurt a lot of people with low-end machines and hard RL situations. CCP can have good, well justified reasons for doing it, but I want them to make the decitions with their eyes open and not to pretend it's all sunshine and lollipops for all involved. I was in a similar situation some years ago. I had a computer less than 4 years old, which had been high-end at the time of purchase (Voodoo 2 card for 3D graphics, 333 MHz Pentium II, and so forth), and there was this game coming out, Morrowind, which just had minimum system requirements that my computer couldn't match. I asked around in newsgroups if it was possible to upgrade to a graphics card, but the replies were negative. I'd have to buy a new computer, in order to be able to meet the specs. "You can always just upgrade your graphics card" is a myth[1], and if CCP don't understand this, they might cause themselves some trouble, even though I'm well in the green with my 38 months old computer (6800 GT card does support SM 3). [1] Even though I do believe it is more feasible now, in more (desktop) cases, than it was in early 2002. Also the computer buying situation now is quite different from what it was like in 2002 or even in 1998. -- Salpad
ggibblets	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:42:00 - [165] My main concern is Linux, what does this mean for it? SM2 might run OK in WINE, but SM3 I'm not sure about...
LordRyan77 Gallente Ooops Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:42:00 - [166] I run 4 clients on 2 networked PC'S. One premium one classic. The classic shuts down when taking into combat so I just use it monitor chat and set training skills. So I can imagine how this is gonna go. Two of my accounts are due for renewal in 12 days, I'm just gonna go ahead and cancel those. No reason to wait, I already know it won't work. LordRyan77
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:48:00 - [167] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 13/01/2009 22:49:27 Originally by: clone 1 Here is a question, if you are going to kill off SM2 support, why develop Premium Lite at all if all you are only gona get 9months payback? Why in that case would you not let classic exist until winter expansion? I am just trying to grasp the logic of the move in winter. Very good question. Going from what the blog says, Lite is implied to be the exact same underlying client as Premium or at least very similar, with lower resolution textures and different shaders - otherwise they'd still be maintaining two clients and have gained nothing at all beyond a rename. Thus they won't be developing that much - however you're right, it does beg the question, if they drop SM2 in December, why have a few months of developing and maintaining SM2 shaders for the Lite version at all. My gut says that given the feedback so far, they won't drop SM2; it's clear quite a few laptop users posting are not yet using SM3 cards.
Blazde 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:48:00 - [168] My card supports SM3 but running Premium causes freezes and glitches a lot so I don't. The Classic graphics engine is mature and rock solid judging by lack of complaints now, and it took years to get that way. In all honesty I don't care about Beautiful very much. Stable I care about a lot. Though I can see it's an important selling point and EVE needs to stay current
qrAq	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:53:00 - [169] Edited by: qrAq on 13/01/2009 22:55:37 i have a 1 year old laptop with gma950 and it has serious problems running classic eve faster than 20fps(which is fine for me, but it is more like 5-10fps in a BIG serious battle - all effects off!) If there will be problems running "premium lite" on my spec I assure you, CCP, that I will NOT buy a new one. Not for one game (eve is pretty much only game i play on pc). qrAq out
Lord Timelord Point of No Return Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:53:00 - [170] My Main Account is running a BFG GeForce 7800 GS OC 8x AGP Video Card. This card is currently running the EVE Premium Client at 40-60 FPS most of the time, and performance is adequate. It looks like this card will be able to run things down the road, however it'll be at a worse frame rate. This system will have to be downgraded to my 2nd accounts box at the end of the year, no doubt due to the horrid performance of the 'new and improved' eve client. Now about the laptop users that have sounded off toward you CCP (count me as one of them)! I have a 1 1/2 year old Acer Aspire Laptop that came with the ATI Radeon Xpress 1100 Series Video Card. This card supports (Full DirectX 9.0 Support (Vertex Shader v2.0 and Pixel Shader v2.0). This laptop can't run the Premium Client due to this limitation, so it runs the classic client for my 2nd account. If Shader v2.0 is dropped from support, it will no longer be able to play EVE. I would NOT be happy with the fact that I spent considerable time looking for a laptop that could play the EVE Classic Client FOR THIS SPECIFIC PURPOSE! Being able to log onto your accounts and run stuff in the classic client is extremely useful. I can even pvp on the laptop, which gets a respectable 40 fps running the classic client. It isn't stellar, but it gets the job done. If Shader 2.0 is dropped from support, I can foresee this laptop getting sold. It's a shame that CCP thinks that a $600.00, 1 1/2 Year old Dual Core Laptop with 2GB of Ram isn't new enough for them (GRUMBLE)!

brakespear Minmatar Heaven Up Here	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:54:00 - [171] How will this affect those currently unable to use Premium due to trinity.dll / blue.dll issues? Has a fix been identified? Or will Premium Lite not cause these errors?
Cybele Lanier Amarr The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:58:00 - [172] I'm going to miss the swirly blue things on the Prowler.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:00:00 - [173] Edited by: MotherMoon on 13/01/2009 23:03:00 Originally by: clone 1 Here is a question, if you are going to kill off SM2 support, why develop Premium Lite at all if all you are only gona get 9months payback? Why in that case would you not let classic exist until winter expansion? I am just trying to grasp the logic of the move in winter. I really want to see a comment on this. Why put money into something your going to get rid of in 9 months. keep it in, or at least get rid of it, but allow users to TURN IT DOWN to SM2. In other words let us as players turn off normal maps and advanced lighting and other things. Putting money and time into a system where we can barebone the cilent down to SM2 and back up to SM3 would be awesome. Originally by: Cybele Lanier I'm going to miss the swirly blue things on the Prowler.
Delphen Gruss Gallente BlazingAngels	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:01:00 - [174] As a person who uses 2 computers and 2 accounts (1 per PC) I have one card supporting Shader Model 2, and one that supports Shader Model 3. The card in the PC with shader model 3 was purchased just for Premium, but I cannot afford to go out an upgrade the other PC just to play eve, and I dislike dual-boxing my accounts, as that is to much of a pain. I prefer to have it all in front of me at the same time. Please don't remove Shader Model 2 support.
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:01:00 - [175] i can run it in premium fine, unless i run dual accounts. so ive actually hardly every ever had the premium graphics activated. I hope you make damn sure that i can run dual accounts with premium light just as fine as i can on classic now or i have at least one account i dont need anymore. but removing classic client is a bad idea with the regards of the graphic cards in a lot of laptops anyhow. this is one thing you really should reconsider.
Random Incarnate Australia and New Zealand Eve Corp FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:02:00 - [176] Edited by: Random Incarnate on 13/01/2009 23:06:18 Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Leeham I hate to disturb the argument here regarding people being excluded but will Premium Light graphically represent prenium or classic? Premium Light will be an "auto-generated SM2 version" of the current Premium art content (which is SM3). So - if it's auto-generated, is it that much harder to maintain an SM2 client as well as an SM3? I definitely like the idea of Premium Light, but don't give me the shinies just to say you might take it away 6 months later. :( I may be able to upgrade by that time, or, I may be a poor uni student. =/ P.S. Running an X600 in a laptop - impossible to upgrade. Desktop only has AGP support.

CCP Zulupark	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:05:00 - [177] It's good to see that people are giving constructive feedback. The biggest concerns appear to be with the SM3 change, especially in regards to laptops. Please keep commenting, we're reading this thread and gathering info and data to see what concerns you have. The only way for us to make and revise plans about these sorts of things is by having an open and honest discussion with the players and that seems to be working fine :-)

Xori Ruscuv Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:06:00 - [178] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 13/01/2009 23:06:53 Global economic recession = really bad time to "force" people into new hardware. Yes, the recession is global, and yes, it will likely last over a year. Besides, a lot of people use notebooks to do non combat Eve activities while on the road, work, vacation, etc. Eve is a game that DEMANDS that you log in every X days. That's fine, and hardcore Eve fans don't mind that. But it's going to be a huge crimp in the plan when you essentially keep people from logging in (while they're away from home) by forcing a high lower bound in hardware requirements.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:06:00 - [179] Originally by: Avon Originally by: James Lyrus http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-095-OK That's a GeForce 6 series card, right? AGP, SM3.0, and ú35. OK so that's a whole 2 months EVE sub, but I'm not sure the sky is falling here. How do I install that in my laptop? Got a guide or HOWTO? No, but I hear laptops aren't designed to upgrade. I figured you probably knew that when you bought it.
keepiru Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:07:00 - [180] I think you're misguided about the 2.0 dropping. There's plenty of players (I know a number of them ingame) that have no plan to upgrade an SM2.0 machine because they do everything that's necessary, and will keep doing so for the next 2-3 years. Certainly, I have no plan whatsoever to upgrade my SM2 desktop purely to run EVE Premium. While by the end of this year dropping 2.0 support will probably not be an issue for desktop users - SM3 cards will be cost a couple of coffees at starbux by then - the laptop users, and there's a heck of a lot of them, will just give EVE the finger instead, and that's the group with the largest number of SM2 machines. There's still low-end SM2 boxens being sold with vista premium right now, and a huge installed base. Do your reasearch very, very carefully when it comes to what those people will be doing, because they're not going to go "oh heay, eve wont run anymore, ill just drop hundreds of dollars on a new machine i dont need".

Von Druid Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:10:00 - [181] I guess the Winter 2009 change is related to Ambulation... all the advanced lighting is pretty much impossible to implement on SM2.0.
Cyb3r D3ath	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:11:00 - [182] 9800GT wit directX 10, Shader Model 4.0.. no prob here. :)
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:13:00 - [183] NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please don't! I can't resist these ugly coarse-skin looking ships with spanking idle animation! If you going to deny us from classic client, give us ability to turn off the nasty dock animation in "premium" at least! And do something to Amarr ships to make them as shiny in "Premium" as they are in Classic. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:15:00 - [184] posting from my acer aspire one, while lying in bed and just before i quickly change a skill over. am i going to be able to skillchange with my netbook once you do this, or are you considering allowing us to change skills via api if not?
Lar'san	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:16:00 - [185] CCP ---- Go for it Upgrade , Upgrade , Upgrade I say Over the years, I've had to buy 2 new computers because of Eve Online. I'm happy to do so, even though money is tight. It's not hard to get sub-$400.00 computers to run multiple accounts... all the while on a dial up connection. I'm passing out mops for those that wish to collect those salty tears of others. There's simply too much for me to enjoy alone. Adapt or Die
Xessej	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:17:00 - [186] My home box is no problem. However my work machine, which I log in to change skills during the work day, has no graphics card and uses an intel GMA 3100 GPU which is shadermodel 2.0. So without a skill queue I would be losing a lot of training time simply because I can't run evemon and log in and set new skills which is a big enough deal to make me consider spending my money elsewhere. Either support shadermodel 2.0 or give us a skill queue.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:19:00 - [187] Originally by: James Lyrus No, but I hear laptops aren't designed to upgrade. I figured you probably knew that when you bought it. Which is exactly why I spent a lot of money buying (at the time) the top of the range laptop which easily surpassed the minimum requirement of Eve (in fact, it was better than my desktop machine at the time). What annoys me is that CCP are removing my ability to use it for the reason I bought it simply to make things easier for themselves. I don't really accept that the removal of SM1 support for their 3D database front-end is anything to do with improving Eve, rather than just reducing workload. Removing Classic does nothing to make Eve better.
Borgholio Minmatar Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:20:00 - [188] Originally by: CCP Zulupark It's good to see that people are giving constructive feedback. The biggest concerns appear to be with the SM3 change, especially in regards to laptops. Please keep commenting, we're reading this thread and gathering info and data to see what concerns you have. The only way for us to make and revise plans about these sorts of things is by having an open and honest discussion with the players and that seems to be working fine :-) Yes that's the general consensus that I see here. Most people have no issues dropping SM 1, since those cards are ancient anyways. SM 2, however, is still quite common and should be kept for at least a few more years.
Rosa Gladius	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:23:00 - [189] Who cares if your computer can run the game if the game is still run by those that cheat. Need names and corps to add transparency to the CCP/ Player exploit scandals
Random Incarnate Australia and New Zealand Eve Corp FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:24:00 - [190] Originally by: Avon Originally by: James Lyrus I don't really accept that the removal of SM1 support for their 3D database front-end is anything to do with improving Eve, rather than just reducing workload. Removing Classic does nothing to make Eve better. Removing Classic reduces time spent creating new art assets, etc for Classic, so that time can then be dedicated to Premium. I see their logic here, but it sucks if you're running SM1, and might suck if you're running SM2.

Els Sim	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:25:00 - [191] Well, i had already wanted to upgrade to premium in time for my shiny t2 ships :D my only question with this is , when will you decide about the second, Winter expansion, min req raisings? i have shading 2 so im fine for now, but for example: someone else buys a brand new card for spring expo(say a shading 2 one for the sake of this example), then u go and raise reqs a second time(in winter), then they need another new card, 2 in the same year? it would be nice if you can decide on whether or not u are doing the second min req raising by the time the first one is inacted, so ppl can plan ahead and not buy a new gfx card every expansion :D
Koyama Ise Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:25:00 - [192] Edited by: Koyama Ise on 13/01/2009 23:26:18 Edited by: Koyama Ise on 13/01/2009 23:25:53 I would like to ask a few questions about these changes. Us the "Premium Lite" Client a separate client or is it just a bunch of settings you'll now have access to? If it's a mere bunch of settings could there be some way to opt out of downloading larger client files ex high quality textures for people who don't need them and run on Fraudband with small download limits? Will we get more advanced graphics options rather than just premium/lite allowing the game to more scalable? Finally with the fact that Shader Model 4 runs only on Vista at the present time and is not likely to change until Windows 7 is released, with amount of haters of Vista is it really necessary to out phase Shader Model 3? And for all the people throwing in the quitting of EVE due to increased graphics requirements, the reason they are doing this as they said is because it makes it easier to fix issues because you're not coding your program to be compatible with an extremely large amounts of hardware. That and the hardware required to run lite would be less than my old PC which I got 6 years ago and the only upgrade it's had is an MX440 to a 6600GT. Also gotta love my HD3850
clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:26:00 - [193] Make DX10 a requirement, I dare you SM2 emulation on Intel 9xx (with enough cpu welly) Linkage
Caleb Kadesh	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:28:00 - [194] I would like too add my encouragement to keep SM 2.0 support. Many of the laptops that I work on are running Intel 950's (SM 2.0 capable) including my own. I only use my laptop to change skills and check evemail. Is it possible to do this out of game in the future?
Rebnok Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:29:00 - [195] the changes wont be a problem for my desktop. I just upgraded to 2x 9800 running sli and I learned the hard way. I not only had to buy the gfx cards but also had to buy a bigger power supply. THe 800$ pc that u get from retail store comes with 250-300- watt PS's. That wont run a good grafix card. I had to install a 950w ps.intel quadcore 6600, vista 64 with 8g ram. But will my 6 month old laptop i bought just for cyno alts work after dec. If i remeber it has a onboard 700 gfx card, it will run premium now if that helps?
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:31:00 - [196] Originally by: Random Incarnate Removing Classic reduces time spent creating new art assets, etc for Classic, so that time can then be dedicated to Premium. I see their logic here, but it sucks if you're running SM1, and might suck if you're running SM2. Thing is, it isn't like new art and assets are often added to classic, are they? People who run classic don't want the glitz, they want to be able to log in and play. I just don't get what benefit there is for the subscriber. If they need more Devs to support classic then employ some. Probably better to spend the money you get to keep by not removing subscribers than to just throw it away. 5% of 250,000 people paying 15 bucks a month? Surely you can find someone who would keep classic running for that?
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:32:00 - [197] My Vista laptop is capable of running Premium at the moment. My iMac is supposed to be able to run Premium, it's just not available for Mac/Linux users at the moment. CCP should consider adding a "Send client technical details to CCP" feature into EVE. CCP should consider adding a "Chat" client that allows logging in, chatting, skill changing, buy/sell order manipulation, without the graphics overhead. In fact, CCP could split EVE entirely into two pieces - one handling the communications and market manipulation ("Chat client"), the other just being the ship simulator with the HUD, overview, target selection, weapons management ("Flight client"). This would cater to multi-screen users. Allowing the Chat client to log in from a separate computer to the Flight client would cater to multi-computer users too. Those of us who have underpowered laptops/netbooks would then get to do the stuff we currently use the portable computer for, with the advantage that battery life is extended due to not rendering useless graphics. Perhaps the Chat client could then be implemented using a published API for chat, market manipulation and route setting, allowing the Chribbas or the world to write their own UI specific to their window manager of choice.
Elisa Day Shade. Penumbra Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:35:00 - [198] Originally by: keepiru [...]that have no plan to upgrade an SM2.0 machine because they do everything that's necessary Obviously an assumption based on false premises.
Blastil	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:36:00 - [199] For the love of god- If you don't have a video card that can run shader 2.0 you don't deserve to even operate a computer. Seriously, my mother's built in graphics card on her micro home pc can use shader 2.0. Go to a used electronics store and BUY something. Go spend $10 on ebay and GET one. While your at it, spend another $20 on a gig of memory, and maybe another $50 on a SLI enabled motherboard. Seriously, for like $100(that's maybe a week of work at minimum wage for a temporary second job, go apply at your local movie theater) you can get an SLI ENABLED GRAPHICS CARD/MOTHERBOARD AND A NEW GIG OF MEMORY. If you can't afford that, you've got other problems than maintaining your sub, and that extra $15 would be better spent on FOOD. All this said- I expect CCP to let you change skills by API since they promised, and it would be nice for those who only have crappy Amiga's to go change skills.
Cierejai Caldari BlackSite Prophecy	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:38:00 - [200] My laptop has better specs then my computer but runs premium slowerer. wat

pk blinder Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:40:00 - [201] Well, I have a one year old Compaq running an nvidia GeForce 7500 LE and 2 Premium Clients = eve running like a dog regardless of graphics settings. Hell even one client can't run smoothly. So I play in Classic mode all the time and do you know, I couldn't care less about more spiffeh graphics, shading and such cr@p. CCP - you need to approach this from your standard users perspective. Game play is all important and should not be threatened by trying to make the graphics 10% better. The trade offs just aren't worth it. Get out of your ivory tower, visit some of your customers and see what really matters to them. Hell, what am I saying. I'm always zoomed out to max, brackets and sound turned off and praying the server will hold the latest 800 man fleet fight anyway. PK
Chao Phyra	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:40:00 - [202] Old Laptop with Sm1.4, 3 accounts, and chars in the 40-70mil SP range. So I'm toast come March - thanks for nothing. [guess I'll never get to see that GI-2 implant fixed]
The BringerofOrder	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:40:00 - [203] Well I for one am pleasantly surprised/happy that they are moving on from the ôClassicö and onto something that should streamline development abit. BUT, and there is always a but isnÆt there! With all this changing to engine of old, hows about some updates/changes that have been screamed for, for years now! So my questions are as follows. A) Will any new features be added to ôPremiumö? Such as Anti-Aliasing or proper dual/triple screen support? B) Will this affect larger fights at all? For the good or the bad? For the good I would think but someone might know more than me on this subject.
Zaknussem Caldari Intrum Industria	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:45:00 - [204] Sounds to me like the "Ambulation" part of the Winter 2009 expansion will be players "ambulating" to the nearest computer store to upgrade their machines... Bad jokes aside, I'm all for SM 1.0 being dumped. I think it's good that you announced it 2 months in advance so the few people that need to adapt have the time to do so. But it sounds like you'll have to be more tactful when dumping SM 2.0, even when you announce it 10+ months in advance. Seems that people are still attached to the ol' gal, even though it's time she was dragged round the back of the shed and shot. Suddenly "adapt or die" and/or "cold, harsh, unforgiving universe" don't mean anything to a lot of people. Oh well. shrugs But work on a way to keep the Disco Prowler, please?
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:46:00 - [205] Originally by: Avon I just don't get what benefit there is for the subscriber. Most likely new features won't work on old shader models (system wide asteroid belts, ambulation and so on). See it from the bright side though, you have a full year to save up for a new laptop, and tbh by that time your current one will be pretty old. My now over a year old laptop (XPS1330) has no problem what so ever to play the Premium client. Considering content/asset creation is close to 95% of the total development budget for modern games I really doubt you can hire enough people to cover the classic client need for that 5% of the income.
Ab Tallen Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:50:00 - [206] One of the appeals of EVE has always been that it runs on relatively modest hardware, compared to most modern PC games (and still looks good). When I started playing in 2006, I used my girlfriend's P3/600 with an Geforce DDR card and a whopping 256MB RAM - didn't work well, but it was possible. (Somehow I couldn't get it to start up in the PC/XT emulator with DOS 3.3 on the Atari ST though...) That said, I'd assume that notebooks with GMA 9xx graphics are still quite common right now - probably even more than half a year ago, as it's part of the standard Netbook platform. So phasing out SM2.0 support too soon might not be a good idea.
Sir Cuddles Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:51:00 - [207] Quote: One of EVE's unique features (along with being an awesome game on a single server) is that it can run on pretty much any computer built after 1998. Apparently Apple G4s don't count as computers.
Pivalak Ultriach Criesther Evirementari	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:51:00 - [208] Originally by: farfrael How about Linux? Are you planning to continue supporting this OS? My thoughts exactly. I was looking forward to the release of an official Premium client for Linux, at last, but given the silence CCP is maintaining on that subject, I'm beginning to fear they may have decided to discontinue it. Please prove me wrong! :)
Xol'tan Wrath of Fenris	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:53:00 - [209] If someones to lazy to upgrade its one thing but is some one is to poor to upgrade the cash there wasting on eve would be better spent on food and rent. imo they are doing this so they dont have to make extra models and textures for poor and lazy ppl in comming expantions.
Kumi Unn	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:54:00 - [210] ATI Radeon 3100 1918MB of memory Can I run EVE?! *I'm on a laptop we just bought.. I won't be able to get a new one till I graduate.. :'(

Somal Thunder Intergalactic Peace Organization	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:54:00 - [211] Edited by: Somal Thunder on 13/01/2009 23:54:59 How about adding a gameplay mode that doesn't render models at all? Such modes could be used for skill monitoring on older PC's. I generally run my alts on a seperate machine, an old machine from 2002 with an old nVidia card (It's got a PCI motherboard, so there is absolutely NO chance to run SM3 on it, and I have no idea if SM2 will work. A mode that doesn't render models would rely no a simple text-and-boxes interface, sure, it's about a day of development given all the resources EVE has, but it'll no doubt be the logical choice for players with old machines that don't want to upgrade, can't upgrade or experience very low FPS in fleet fights and don't mind the mind numbing experience of just right clicking names from a dull list and pressing the F-keys. An idea to be considered? Original View The Idea
adriaans Amarr Ankaa.	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:54:00 - [212] i have one high end computer and one rather old one, i usually run both clients on my high end, however if i need my eyes on both clients at once i will run my second account on the old computer, basically it will limit my use of my second account somewhat...:/ (or fix the **** alt-tabbing bug, its been there as long as i can remember) -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
D'ceet Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:58:00 - [213] Edited by: D''ceet on 14/01/2009 00:05:01 Windows Vista Home Basic Stock Intel Graphics Card 1 Gig of Ram Toshiba Laptop... and i really like eve and want to keep playing, but just cant afford a better pc...i really really REALLY hope this doesnt shaft me.... Link to DXDIAG Originally by: Popperr I resent the insinuation that we have intelligence, artificial or otherwise.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:59:00 - [214] Edited by: Clansworth on 14/01/2009 00:05:15 Originally by: Gone'Postal Originally by: Andrue If we could just render the inside of a station with environment loading disabled it would be useful. That way people relying on slightly crappy laptops can still chat to friends from their hotel room and change skills. This option would be nice tbh. Originally by: Mara Rinn My Vista laptop is capable of running Premium at the moment. My iMac is supposed to be able to run Premium, it's just not available for Mac/Linux users at the moment. CCP should consider adding a "Send client technical details to CCP" feature into EVE. CCP should consider adding a "Chat" client that allows logging in, chatting, skill changing, buy/sell order manipulation, without the graphics overhead. In fact, CCP could split EVE entirely into two pieces - one handling the communications and market manipulation ("Chat client"), the other just being the ship simulator with the HUD, overview, target selection, weapons management ("Flight client"). This would cater to multi-screen users. Allowing the Chat client to log in from a separate computer to the Flight client would cater to multi-computer users too. Those of us who have underpowered laptops/netbooks would then get to do the stuff we currently use the portable computer for, with the advantage that battery life is extended due to not rendering useless graphics. Perhaps the Chat client could then be implemented using a published API for chat, market manipulation and route setting, allowing the Chribbas or the world to write their own UI specific to their window manager of choice. I believe in the FanFest vids, there was talk about adding eve-voice, eve-mail, chat, etc features to the COSMOS (out of client eve) implementation. I believe the word was about making it easier to 'play eve at work'. This sounds like most the features you are looking for. System Influence
JadeO Caldari W.A.S.P	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:00:00 - [215] Not supporting SM2 doesn't sounds like a very smart move, tbh. Not everyone is running top-notch computers, far from it. And, personally, I always felt that having EVE running on old machines was a major advantadge to get new players (and also keep the ones already playing)... But that's just me... ______________ Looking for a good signature, logo, website layout? EVEMail me!
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:02:00 - [216] What I miss in Eve is a single button, easy to find and big. Press it and it optimise for the best it can you client (no drones, etc). Unpress it and you have your previous settings. This, and exotic dancers. I love exotic dancers. Fetchez la vache !
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:02:00 - [217] I think you need to do three things 1) a tool (NOW!) so people know if they can run premium Lt 2a) either Start a Skill Queing system or 2b) a login tool that allowes you to update skill training.
Nordic Warrior Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:02:00 - [218] Edited by: Nordic Warrior on 14/01/2009 00:03:46 For me, this will mean that I can no longer start eve on my very old dell latitude d600 laptop. It already runs like crap on this, but enables me to do in-station stuff (industry things) away from my main pc. It runs quite choppy already on classic while in space, but not bad enough to not be able to manage pos's nearby. Maybe could be an idea to allow non-sm2 users but disable all instation gfx and undocking options that'll require more graphics? I'd love to keep my laptop for in-station use only, like industry, trade, research etc, eve is a game that can be played without leaving station at all and that doesnt really need nber graphics. Anyway, not a big loss and imho the plusside is that everything that saves money, is easier for devs = better for players in the long run.
Amelia Ewan Mindstar Brigade	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:07:00 - [219] Edited by: Amelia Ewan on 14/01/2009 00:07:46 Dropping Shader Model 1 = A great idea Dropping Shader Model 2 = A terrible most horrible idea. I may have a 8800GT that can support shader model 4.0 but im still looking out for those people with laptops that can only support 2.0. CCP, We pay for your wages, you lose enough players from this drop of the 2.0 you wont have a game to "easily" develop from. Dont do this totally stupid decision of killing 2.0 please.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:09:00 - [220] Originally by: Sir Cuddles Quote: One of EVE's unique features (along with being an awesome game on a single server) is that it can run on pretty much any computer built after 1998. Apparently Apple G4s don't count as computers. What, you trying to bait in the jokes? Joking aside, very few, if anyone, bought a G4 expecting it to be a gaming machine. Why would that change years down the road?

Syrian FC Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:11:00 - [221] Notebook on Intel 945GM does only support shaders v.2, so i hope those things about winter will be reconsidered...
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:12:00 - [222] Originally by: Xol'tan If someones to lazy to upgrade its one thing but is some one is to poor to upgrade the cash there wasting on eve would be better spent on food and rent. since you can buy game time for isk your point is pretty useless tbh
Aiko Intaki	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:16:00 - [223] MacBook Pro Radeon X1600 (SM3.0) 2GB RAM Multiple EvE Accounts As long as I can keep running two accounts at the same time on this thing without it melting, you can count on my monthly fee. If I ever have to evaluate the cost of a new laptop against my continued EvE subscriptions, however... well, you'd better hope the Mac clients survive these obsoletions without long periods of functional uselessness.
Threv Echandari Caldari K Directorate	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:17:00 - [224] Originally by: Digital Anarchist If you want to force us to use new hardware, at least give us an option to run wireframe graphics. No need to fork and maintain 2 codebases, just the option to strip more graphics stuff if we want to. THIS ^^ I have a an HP 1100 tablet that I use when I'm traveling and at the office to change skills and chat and maybe mine or haul with for my second account. The Classic client is the only thing that runs on the GeForce GO integrated video. I think you are going to have a lot of laptop users who are stuck with ****ty Intel Video that can barely run the classic client even on newer hardware. So yeah, while this change won't affect my main rig, many road warriors out there who can't upgrade are going to get screwed. So Yes wireframe mode please we dont need no fancy graphics... ---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod
Meissa Anunthiel Redshift Industrial	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:20:00 - [225] How about the Power of 2? I have 2 accounts, running both of them in classic works fine, running both of them in premium is unworkable... Please take that in consideration when tuning the performance of the Premium Lite version. Thanks
Shaddn Arakh	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:20:00 - [226] I have two HP Pavilions, one of them has on-board Intel card, which SUPPOSEDLY is SM3.0-capable but won't run Fallout 3. So it may be not able to run New Eve Premium. The other Pavilion has mobile GF series 9, so it won't be a problem (FO3 runs smoothly, too). What you CCP need to seriously consider is an iPhone/WinMobile portable client to change skills, chat and play on the markets. Maybe some coporate roles configuration, too. Eve Mobile + Eve Premium (Lite or no Lite) FTW!
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:21:00 - [227] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII No but do you expect a reimbursement from every company that improves its users experience? Premium and Classic are two very seperate beasts, and together they allow for the best of both worlds. However, CCP want to drop Classic to make less work for themselves, it will do nothing to improve the experience of the people who already run Premium. Your arguement is flawed. This isn't about making Eve better for the players. Try reading the actual dev blog less codepaths=improved performance on the codepath they can focus on rather than having 2 dodgy half arsed clients.
Onnen Mentar Murientor Tribe	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:21:00 - [228] Originally by: Amelia Ewan Edited by: Amelia Ewan on 14/01/2009 00:07:46 Dropping Shader Model 1 = A great idea Dropping Shader Model 2 = A terrible most horrible idea. Just for the record, neither my main PC nor my laptop support shader model 3.0, and within a year I will not have upgraded either. Drop shader 2.0, drop me, simple :P For the record.. Desktop GPU is a radeon X850. It does not support 3.0 but it does run EVE classic pretty well indeed. Laptop GPU is the intel 950. In my dreams I see CCP drop classic because they have developed a real light-weight multiplatform OpenGL client. ;)
Impolite Andevil The Shadow Knights Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:22:00 - [229] I highly suggest a hardware survey ala Valve's surveys on Steam. Take a look at your current playerbase and see how many really are on old hardware. Taking a leap like this without real numbers seems very foolish.
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:24:00 - [230] Originally by: Avon Originally by: James Lyrus http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-095-OK That's a GeForce 6 series card, right? AGP, SM3.0, and ú35. OK so that's a whole 2 months EVE sub, but I'm not sure the sky is falling here. How do I install that in my laptop? Got a guide or HOWTO? if you want to use a laptop for something it's not actually designed for i.e gaming then im afraid you have to pay quite a decent amount of money for an actual GAMING laptop as apposed to a normal laptop which are designed for business users.

Rebnok Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:25:00 - [231] Edited by: Rebnok on 14/01/2009 00:26:33 good ideal about iphones and the win moble 6.1 phones i wonder if evemon would work now?
Sir Nimmo Amarr Gun Metal Priests	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:27:00 - [232] Originally by: Rebnok good ideal about iphones and the win moble 6.1 phones Well, I think it has been on the cards for a while and a dev at fanfest had commented on how the mobile client code had been pulled out of a repository somewhere, so hopefully come winter, we might have a mobile client. I just hope it isn't an iPhone only release, I am becoming quite attached to my WinMo phone.
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:28:00 - [233] Quote: Step 2: In the Winter Expansion 2009 we are considering discontinuing support for ShaderModel 2 and make the minimum specification ShaderModel 3(GeForce 6 class cards or ATi x1300 or compatible) Bye bye subscription with that expansion then. Not a threat, just my laptop isn't getting replaced for a long time and I can't put a desktop machine next to where my kids play when I'm gaming..... I already cancelled 2 accounts because my Lenovo T60 couldn't run more than one client anymore. Guess it means more time playing Aces High
Lesmon Children of Avalon	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:28:00 - [234] So this means no more skill switching on the notebook (SM1), no more industry jobs and no more market checking on the notebook, I have to power up the PC for everything? And we'ld still need to see if SM3 will work at all under Linux-Wine, because, quite frankly, the CCP-"Cedega light"-Linux-client so far is simply crap compared to standard Wine :/ Does this mean we will finally get a thin client for switching skills, science/industry and market? It's been asked for so long, and as far as I understand you already have something halfway in your drawers (the load testing sisi clients...)
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:28:00 - [235] Originally by: D'ceet Edited by: D''ceet on 14/01/2009 00:05:01 Toshiba Laptop... and i really like eve and want to keep playing, but just cant afford a better pc...i really really REALLY hope this doesnt shaft me.... GMA950 supports SM2. Heck GMA900 supports SM2. Right now you can run the Premium Client on any GMA9xx computer (or Mirage 3, S3 Chrome, x200) with premium content disabled. "The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
Kewagi Guiscard	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:29:00 - [236] Edited by: Kewagi Guiscard on 14/01/2009 00:29:05 Both my laptop (MacBook) and desktop (iMac) machines luckily support SM3 (They'd even support SM4, so I guess I'm future proof) - but I really hope the new Mac Premium client fixes the horrible stability issues found in it's classic predecessor. At the moment, all I can use the Mac client for is skill switching and low-intensity missions. For PvP, I have to boot over to Windows, not only because of FPS problems, but also because the thing has memory leaks and crashes.
D'ceet Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:33:00 - [237] Originally by: Xailia Originally by: D'ceet Edited by: D''ceet on 14/01/2009 00:05:01 Toshiba Laptop... and i really like eve and want to keep playing, but just cant afford a better pc...i really really REALLY hope this doesnt shaft me.... GMA950 supports SM2. Heck GMA900 supports SM2. Right now you can run the Premium Client on any GMA9xx computer (or Mirage 3, S3 Chrome, x200) with premium content disabled. :highfive: Originally by: Popperr I resent the insinuation that we have intelligence, artificial or otherwise.
Chancellor Martok Caldari IMPERIAL BROTHERHOOD OF KLINGON WARRIORS	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:34:00 - [238] Wow, can I come live in your reality cause yours sounds so much better than mine.... How many people playing eve have everything turned off including sound due to EVE's inability to work with most sounds cards made in the last 6 years. How about fixing the lag that hits every 15 seconds when you have more than 2 chat channels open. How about fixing the disappearing gates and ships, that tbh didn't happen to me till you loaded a fix. Gotta love that one. How about fixing the omg many other documented known issues and problems before you slide in another patch that will take 4-6 months to work the bugs out that it cause's. Is it that important to destroy the ability of another unknown percentage of your player base to actually play the game. How about giving us a CUSTOMER SUPPORT that actually supports the customer. How about actually setting up a CUSTOMER SUPPORT team that supports your paying customers ability to get a problem sorted rather than wait 3 or 4 years like the problem with POS's that you the Dev's of this game knew about but did nothing about for all this time. Then punish the player base by calling them cheats. How about make the game you have work now, I for one do not give one iota about your new look, how about getting the one you have now. TO ACTUALLY WORK.
Mell Anders	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:35:00 - [239] I am using a MacBook Pro CoreDuo (not Core2Duo). I'm running Leopard 10.5.6 and run EVE, obviously, through the Transgaming translator. While I have an onboard ATI Radeon x-1600 (capable of SM3), I currently can not run the Premium graphics. The Classic environment works fine "in space" while the "in-station" environments are, shall we say, not pretty. How will this affect me?
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:36:00 - [240] Originally by: Xailia Right now you can run the Premium Client on any GMA9xx computer (or Mirage 3, S3 Chrome, x200) with premium content disabled. No you can't. My Lenovo T60 won't (GMA945/950). The installer won't accept it and copying the install from a known good machine crashes when starting with an error.

Khorkrak	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:37:00 - [241] Edited by: Khorkrak on 14/01/2009 00:36:53 I don't see a problem with this at all - you're playing a graphics intensive 3D game get a video card that'll do the job. It is shameful though that the linux client lags behind the Windows client due to CCP writing their code against the proprietary DirectX library instead of OpenGL. Especially given that much of the code is written in Python.
Anubisalt	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:37:00 - [242] THis is gonna bite a lot of us in the butts here very quickly, if what ccp says is true and they discontinue shader model 2.0 support with the winter 2009 expansion a lot of us are not gonna be playing anymore. Look at the other game companies out there, Star Trek Online is being released so folks with crappy systems can play it, so why cant ccp continue support of systems that canplay it now. I mean come on guys yeah good graphics is great and all but think of the lot of us that are stuck without new PC's, and dont wanna upgrade just for one friggin game.

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:41:00 - [243] Originally by: brakespear How will this affect those currently unable to use Premium due to trinity.dll / blue.dll issues? Has a fix been identified? Or will Premium Lite not cause these errors? Please explain, what "trinity.dll / blue.dll issues"? Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Beani Kliadi Caldari Ziontech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:45:00 - [244] i have two comps, i'd have to go and update one with a new graphics card, gonna need something AGP 8x, kinda hard to find atm the other computer has a Nvidia series 7 card AGP 8x. so please dont upgrade it for than this or ill be buying two new comps
TalonClark	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:45:00 - [245] Well, this is not easy. I think EVE has to decide if it wants to be just a modern game, or it wants to be a LIFESTYLE. The difference? 1. game: you play the game a few hours a day just for relaxing purpose. You do that on your gaming-rig (uptodate-desktop or gameing-laptop) as you do with other games. You are ready to upgrade the rig when needed to play your games. 2. lifestyle: the game is just a platform for your gaming-experience in an online-community. When you play, you often dont really play, but you chat/talk, check news, change skill or station-trade. You want to have access to this platform from everywhere, maybe even at work, or from your mobile, laptop, netbook, e-reader.... Now, the devblog seems to analyze the problem just from a "gameing" view, meaning you see EVE as just a game and for that you suppose most ppl have a gameing rig or are willing to update for the game. BUT my impression was (fanfest anyone? Oveur?) that you want EVE to be a lifestyle, a platform for the community to experience EVE. So, you want to enable your customers to access EVE from everywhere (eve-mobile project?). For that you have to analyze the market and whats to come in the next 2-3 years: 1. NETBOOKS: thats right, the new flavor of the year are netbooks, they come cheap (often for free in some kind of contract with providers/mobile internet). They dont support any fancy grafics, and wont for years to come. 2. MOBILE PHONES: need i say anything? some ppl already have smartphones that can handle EVE today for minor tasks. 3. e-book readers: YEP thats the future, 0,5-1cm flat computers that will have their breakthrough in the comming 2-3 years, first models come out first half 2009 and will go color in 2010 slowly replacing the netbooks/working notebooks in 2011. ALL this 3 trends will have no fancy grafics, so dont count on SM3.0 or even SM1.0. What would i do? BEFORE cancelling support for anything, make a NEW client just for minor tasks that never require UNDOCKING, and this client shouldnt need 3d-grafics at all. Then, cancel support for SM2.0. Otherwise you will lose on the new trends.
Zepher8062 Angels Of Divine Fury Space Exploration and Logistic Services	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:46:00 - [246] Everything sounds good to me. Just got one question.... When will it hit the test servers? If its already there.. /me smacks head on desk.. I just didnt feel like downloaing the test client yet if not. AODF...Making the Roids Pay for What they Did...
Aeo IV Amarr Xomic OmniCorporation	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:55:00 - [247] CCP, can I make a suggestion? It seems to me that it should be fairly easy for you to whip up a survey, and distribute it through the clients, and you know, scan people's computers to get a fair idea about whether or not these computers can really handle these graphic changes you're proposing. I play on a laptop, and I'll admit it's not very good, I use my laptop cause A) it was a gift, and B) I'm in university and a laptop is very useful for writing up papers. I'm not a causal Eve player, per se, but I simply don't have the hardware to play it in premium.
Xori Ruscuv Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:55:00 - [248] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 14/01/2009 01:04:19 Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: Xol'tan If someones to lazy to upgrade its one thing but is some one is to poor to upgrade the cash there wasting on eve would be better spent on food and rent. since you can buy game time for isk your point is pretty useless tbh That and MMOs are probably some of the cheapest entertainment (cost per hour) money can buy (assuming that you define your cable connection as a basic necessity). People fail to realize this... "oh god, I lost my job, I'm quitting my game!"... goes to movie buys ice cream pays cable TV bill pays newspaper subscription (though all the same *** is available for free online)* subscribes to playboy or some other rubbish
Rika Greyt	Posted - 2009.01.14 01:01:00 - [249] I have to use a laptop. If the winter 2009 version drops 2.0, I am SOL. Dropping 1.0 is not a biggie for me. I specifically tried out Eve in trial mode to check that I would not have to shell out graphics bucks. Many people will be cutting back this next year: if I have to buy another machine, I may have to cut Eve. I second the stick figure option: Elite is still what I pretend I'm playing (with a better economy).
Paul Roberts	Posted - 2009.01.14 01:02:00 - [250] Edited by: Paul Roberts on 14/01/2009 01:03:58 My one and only question is - How long will I be able to test this new 'permium lite' on the test server? As i have issues with my current gfx card being a radion x1900xtx with apparent shader3 to my knowledge and dual client running causing a couple and only a couple of issues. Edited due to r andom spaces and bad spag (nothing like drinking like Ovour and trying to type)

wickedpheonix	Posted - 2009.01.14 01:08:00 - [251] I am not one of those affected by the change - my desktop runs an nVidia 8800 while my laptop's a new Centrino 2 so they both run SM4. However, I do think that if your machine is running a card that hasn't been supported for over 6 years then it's time to upgrade - honestly, go out and buy one of those $500 netbooks and it will probably run EVE just fine, otherwise spend $100 on a video card for your desktop and you'll be OK.
Enma Sylphide	Posted - 2009.01.14 01:10:00 - [252] Making SM3 compulsory or not, I think making a stripped down client which only allows you to change skill and/or chat will make most people here happy, including those with laptops that cannot support SM3.0. Anyway, better graphics does not always translate to better game play. Many MMO games have top notch graphics but are total cr*p.
Miney Prospector Caldari Noob Mercs	Posted - 2009.01.14 01:11:00 - [253] It's about time. I wouldn't worry about the people saying they are going to quit since their laptop from 1997 isn't going to be able to play the game anymore. I also get a chuckle from the people who say they will take the time to stop and go look at other games. Once they realize the only thing their antique computer will play is freecell, perhaps they will wake up. CCP needs to keep pace with standard hardware. Premium Lite is a great idea for multiboxing and fleet engagements but sometimes I like to turn everything all the way up and fly a mission or two and enjoy the visuals. I look forward to the day when Eve will make my dual gtx 260's beg for mercy, I just hope it isn't in 2025.
Xori Ruscuv Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.01.14 01:13:00 - [254] Originally by: Miney Prospector It's about time. I wouldn't worry about the people saying they are going to quit since their laptop from 1997 isn't going to be able to play the game anymore. I also get a chuckle from the people who say they will take the time to stop and go look at other games. Once they realize the only thing their antique computer will play is freecell, perhaps they will wake up. It's not an issue of quitting, it's an issue of playing a game that demands a login schedule, thus "forcing" customers to purchase new hardware just to play the game. Fortunately, CCP isn't full of devs who are *******s like yourself.
Tiberius Nazamir The International Brotherhood of Asian Descent Collective Asylum	Posted - 2009.01.14 01:15:00 - [255] I agree with a lot of the previous posts, while most of us own rigs that have a card with the new Shaders and when we play, we play on those systems. But, sometimes we aren't at home with that rig and would like to just be able to log on to change a skill or chat with our friends and the laptops we would use for that now may not meet the new standard. That being said, I'm all for upgrading the graphic technology and discontinuing Classic content. In it's place, perhaps development on a light chat and character interface for the game should be pursued. I know there was some discussion about EVE Mon being given access to Corp and Alliance chat not too long ago.
wickedpheonix	Posted - 2009.01.14 01:15:00 - [256] Sorry if this ends up being a double-post, but... Originally by: TalonClark Edited by: TalonClark on 14/01/2009 00:51:38 What would i do? BEFORE cancelling support for anything, make a NEW client just for minor tasks that never require UNDOCKING, and this client shouldnt need 3d-grafics at all. Then, cancel support for SM2.0. Otherwise you will lose on the new trends. Although I support this, the developers said in that blog that they were dropping Classic for the specific reason of having only 1 build of the game. Of course, what you describe can be accomplished on a purely text basis and probably wouldn't take more than a day's worth of coding for all platforms involved combined, but then again I'm not familiar with how EVE's internal databases work so it could take a bit more effort than that to not only code it but support it, through multiple expansions and potential software architecture changes.
Alexandra Lucille	Posted - 2009.01.14 01:32:00 - [257] It seems I am in the same boat as many others in this thread. Dropping SM2 support would leave me unable to play EVE on my laptop which, incidentally, is able to easily handle everything else I use it for. Buying a new laptop exclusively for EVE seems somewhat excessive, regardless of how much I may enjoy the game...
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.14 01:33:00 - [258] Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII if you want to use a laptop for something it's not actually designed for i.e gaming then im afraid you have to pay quite a decent amount of money for an actual GAMING laptop as apposed to a normal laptop which are designed for business users. Except this was designed as a laptop for gaming. It cost like $2000 when it was released and, unlike many laptops on the market at the time, had dedicated graphics rather than onboard. It was well above Eve's minimum specs, and so I bought it because it would play Eve. It was very much a gamers laptop.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.14 01:38:00 - [259] Edited by: Avon on 14/01/2009 01:42:05 Edited by: Avon on 14/01/2009 01:40:25 Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII Try reading the actual dev blog less codepaths=improved performance on the codepath they can focus on rather than having 2 dodgy half arsed clients. I read the DevBlog. However, I am dubious that dropping Classic will lead to improvements in Eve in general. For a start, as I pointed out before, even if you only lose 5% of the playerbase that is over $200k in lost revenue (per month). Either you gotta lose some devs, thus making improvements more unlikely, or take a huge hit in profits in the hope that you make up the numbers later. Or, you keep some manpower on Classic, keeping your subscribers, and continue to be able to fund futher development of Premium.
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2009.01.14 01:55:00 - [260] I want a 1-3 year delay in sm 2.0 removal with constant reminders with plans to remove it. Hopefully by then far more computers with 2.0 will no longer be operational.

Zedah Zoid Nutz N Boltz Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:06:00 - [261] I would be in favor of CCP releasing a one time hardware scan utility(with appropriate user notification of course) to do a hardware scan and get some real statistics. As for my data point, I run a stripped down XP on a P4 2.4Ghz 512Mb RAM, GeForce 6200 128Mb RAM. An upgrade is not in the near future(12-18 months). I will not be putting more RAM or upgraded graphics card in this machine as it is simply not worth it. When the system is replaced the whole thing needs to go. I also login on a laptop, and OLD Evo n610c with a Radeon 7500 Mobility chipset. I know this will not meet a 2.0 requirement, much less 3.0. This would be a negative impact to my game play but I currently use this only to do quick chats and change market sell/buy orders, so it would not be a game stopper if this laptop was obsoleted. Good luck CCP and do some research, don't mess up the unique demographic you have going in this game.
Moon Kitten GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:08:00 - [262] Removing support for SM 2.0 cards is great. Poor people shouldn't be playing video games, they should be out working. Great Plan CCP!
Jamie Hara Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:11:00 - [263] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: brakespear How will this affect those currently unable to use Premium due to trinity.dll / blue.dll issues? Has a fix been identified? Or will Premium Lite not cause these errors? Please explain, what "trinity.dll / blue.dll issues"? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=686575 It's on the first page in the issues and workarounds subforum fyi.
TalonClark	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:15:00 - [264] Edited by: TalonClark on 14/01/2009 02:20:37 Edited by: TalonClark on 14/01/2009 02:16:38 Originally by: wickedpheonix Edited by: wickedpheonix on 14/01/2009 01:16:11 Originally by: TalonClark Edited by: TalonClark on 14/01/2009 00:51:38 What would i do? BEFORE cancelling support for anything, make a NEW client just for minor tasks that never require UNDOCKING, and this client shouldnt need 3d-grafics at all. Then, cancel support for SM2.0. Otherwise you will lose on the new trends. Although I support this, the developers said in that blog that they were dropping Classic for the specific reason of having only 1 build of the game. Of course, what you describe can be accomplished on a purely text basis and probably wouldn't take more than a day's worth of coding for all platforms involved combined, but then again I'm not familiar with how EVE's internal databases work so it could take a bit more effort than that to not only code Thats why i said the dev-blog seems to analyze the problem only from a "eve is just a game"-view. They ignore the fact EVE is very much played in a different way, because of the gamedesign supporting this (chat/market/skill....) Originally by: Nova Fox I want a 1-3 year delay in sm 2.0 removal with constant reminders with plans to remove it. Hopefully by then far more computers with 2.0 will no longer be operational. But thats the point, the new technologies and trends to come in the next 1-3 years all focus on mobile platforms ignoring high-performance gaming rigs, meaning if EVE goes this way without a 2nd client supporting mobile solutions they will lose out on the trends, and somehow i remember the devs stating often enough that they wanted ppl to be able to play the market, change skill and so on on mobile solutions or from work i'm quite surprised that EVE wants to change their focus on beeing a platform to beeing just a game. The main focus of EVE should be making it available on all platforms not restricting the use to a niche crowd (PC gaming ppl with high-end gaming rigs).
Annaliese Witschak Galgorth's Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:16:00 - [265] Edited by: Annaliese Witschak on 14/01/2009 02:17:37 Didn't want those laptop/netbook users anyway.
Xailz Godless Horizon.	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:32:00 - [266] While i agree that this really should happen (For all its supposed advantages) and the fact EvE has been running on the same specs for a damn long time, i have to put the idea down because of a simple fact, CCP need to look out for the player base and this will negatively effect a good few, alot more then any nerf. When it comes to going Full Premium, i think that will always be a big nono, the fast growing population of eve is forcing people to buy better machines even now, a machine on the edge of requirements for Full Prem running in classic mode gets to around 200 ish players in a fight and it begins to become unplayable, this isnt looking after the player base at all But then, sure it's a hobby and they cost money alot more then the price of eve and a pc upgrade even every year, best way to play this would definitely be looking for player machine specs and bringing to light how many people lose out from this in the terms of Laptop devices before proceeding. Xailz
Bo'Tox Amarr Arkor Inc	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:33:00 - [267] Hi CCP, I was going to complain bitterly but then I looke dup my Laptop (over a year old) runnning Nvidia 8000 sereis and it runs 4.0 so I say out with the old 2.0... Lets beef up the hardware specs so we can get a better gaming experience... (As if WIS wouldnt require us to upgrade the hardware anyway!) And, No, you wont loose a lot of people (if any) due to this.... Ignore the Doomsayers!
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:34:00 - [268] Its probably way too soon to drop SM2 support. Even on fancy new laptops, such as my new Lenovo W500 which has an ATI HD 3650 with 256 megs of dedicated video memory, these "modern" video chipsets are MOBILE variants....meaning even when plugged in they run slower and lack pipelines the full desktop versions have. This makes sense, due to thermal and power constraints...however it means its deceiving to look at the specs and say, hey, its good to go. This is mainly because a laptop that comes with this "fancy" of a card also comes with a fancy LCD panel....mine does 1920x1200....and running the current premium client at that res, even when plugged in, routinely drops to a 45ish FPS...already dangerously low....and it supports DirectX 10.2 and SM4. Dropping resolutions looks crappy due to scaling. I run classic on it to save battery life and get a faster FPS....other people with brand new laptops (mine is less then a month old) likely due the same.
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:34:00 - [269] Why are people so up in their pants about this? It costs what $30-$40 (AU) for a sm3 card? Anyone paying for an EVE subscription can afford that. And if you're paying via in game bought gtc's, then you must have plenty of time on your hands to pick up some extra work..
Impalia Fematatia	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:35:00 - [270] Just as a direct comment to CCP: I have three machines, and three accounts. I'm stating a point of fact in my own gaming world: If the Premium Lite client does not offer comparable framerates to the current classic client on 5900xt and 5950 Ultra nVidia hardware- my accounts close. I can afford to keep one machine at the bleeding edge. But two of my boxes are older AGP machines. They are not going to be upgraded. EVE has always been a wonderful game for me. I need multiple accounts to enjoy playing- one account is simply not enough "mental traffic" for me. I'm sure there are many others who play the same way. I think this is a mistake as planned. The classic client is a marvelous selling point. CCP, you would be better to extend the Premium client to new levels of eye candy, while extending the low end client WAY down in requirements so EVE could be played on a toaster.

Brea Lafail	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:36:00 - [271] As someone who moves every 1-3 months, I must protest the increased graphics requirements as a desktop is not feasible. I started playing Eve as it was one of the few games I could actually play. When Premium came out, I knew the end was near.
Bo'Tox Amarr Arkor Inc	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:38:00 - [272] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 14/01/2009 01:43:37 Except this was designed as a laptop for gaming. It cost like $2000 when it was released and, unlike many laptops on the market at the time, had dedicated graphics rather than an integrated onboard solution. It was well above Eve's minimum specs, and so I bought it because it would play Eve. It was very much a gamers laptop. Same here. I bought my laptop a year and a bit ago SOLELY because it could play Eve. Com on!!! Are people actually saying that they want to be able to run Eve on a more than 4 year old Graphics card? Any El-Cheapo Nvidia 8000 series card WILl support SM4.0 so what is the problem??? Only the ppl with NO money... If you dont have money to upgrade ($50-$100 US) then you certainly wont have money to play Eve so out you go - GTFO...
Bo'Tox Amarr Arkor Inc	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:40:00 - [273] Originally by: Alexandra Lucille It seems I am in the same boat as many others in this thread. Dropping SM2 support would leave me unable to play EVE on my laptop which, incidentally, is able to easily handle everything else I use it for. Buying a new laptop exclusively for EVE seems somewhat excessive, regardless of how much I may enjoy the game... Cheap Dells are more than capable of handling Eve - just dont get onboard graphics... in $Aus its around the $1200 mark. In US dollars its about as much as a Hershey bars so just fork over the $$$...
Koryvarn Infusion.	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:41:00 - [274] My laptop was bought in 2006, and has an Intel GMA 950 card. It has no problems dual accounting the classic client. If shader model 3 is required, then I'm out. In this economic climate, I can't justify replacing my laptop for a computer game, and if I did, it's likely I'd be playing Warhammer Online instead.
Ein Spiegel	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:43:00 - [275] I appreciate CCP terminating my ability to play on another computer. Although, to be honest, my laptop should support (in theory) the new light client. (In Theory) It can run premium, albeit at about 3 fps and with a horrible yellow taint on everything. I've already replaced the motherboard once on this laptop, because the video card (an integrated GeForce GO 6600) started to fail (possibly due to heat). Increasing the demands on video resources means that, yes, the newer generation of laptops coming out will be supported just fine. But most of us playing the game don't use cutting edge technology. I was using an HP desktop with nVidia onboard card in order to play, but sadly Trinity made that unplayable in space. (It's an older system, I'll admit.) CCP is going to gamble that people are more willing to upgrade their hardware to continue playing a game, and that a significant portion of their clients are already running hardware that will enable them to continue to play. But if it comes down to a decision between 14.99 a month versus $499 for a new computer, CCP will lose out to economic realities.
Smacko Thug State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:44:00 - [276] Originally by: Lar'san Over the years, I've had to buy 2 new computers because of Eve Online. I'm happy to do so, even though money is tight. It's not hard to get sub-$400.00 computers to run multiple accounts... all the while on a dial up connection. Youve had to buy 2 NEW computers in the last 5 years? Because of eve? They obviously werent new...
simsjam	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:46:00 - [277] The whole idea here is to make money CCP! Do not drop support for people with lesser computers because a lot of them are playing on laptops that do not have the latest videocards. Even new most laptops do not come with high end graphics to start wit. I have a laptop with an ATI X1200 video card and it is not that old. Make the lite verson of the client target the most users and make the high end client for the smaller number of people that just have to have the best.
Mr ZZZZZZZZ	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:53:00 - [278] I'm running on a Lenova T60 laptop, that I think can handle SM2, but continued graphics upgrades don't have any value to me. The graphics are good enough to handle trading/mining/manufacturing activities. I mean seriously, how sexy can you make the trading screen, or jumping 30 hops in a freighter? As to upgrading the graphics....I'm one of many many users who are running on a company provided laptop. Reasonable graphics requirements and low bandwidth allow me to logon and play eve from hotel rooms and airport hotspots. If you push the HW envelop too fast you'll lose my two accounts and a lot of the players who are on during the day from work / School PCs.
PiehO Gallente Department of Research and Development Stargate Experiment 626	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:56:00 - [279] Looks like me and my trusty lappy will be chatting and doing market stuff via vnc then :P. FYI, my chip in the lappy is a Radeon 7000 IGP, so shader model 0. tbh though, doing anything more on eve with this lappy is just like pulling teeth, so its not a big problem for me. Need to move stuff? hugs vnc, just dont install the mirror driver and enjoy the 1fps and your sorted.
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:06:00 - [280] Edited by: Kessiaan on 14/01/2009 03:09:12 Well, I'll be back on my desktop by then so the new Premium Lite client won't really be an issue for me. But if you're going to totally discontinue SM1 support I do think you should 'officially' start to support mobile Intel graphics as Intel's GMA series is the only graphics chipset in common use that's still being installed on new computers that only supports SM2 Yes, I know it's a crap chipset but given the goals outlined in the devblog it would be an ideal minimum standard. As for discontinuing SM2 in the winter expansion - if you do it you're going to lose a lot of subs and shut yourself out from a lot of low-end computers. I'd suggest waiting at least a couple of years.

Sean Roach	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:08:00 - [281] I'm new to the game, and playing on a laptop. It'll survive the upgrade, and the proposed one as well, but I don't see buying another in time for a third stage, should one occur. My desktop is older, and I took the monitor off to give this one an occasional second head. Have you considered a semi-open development system? Open the IP stack to registered outside development? If you did this, you could be in for some very pleasant surprises, (and a lot of unpleasant botting.) Imagine someone writing their own client to interface with your game that will run with no hardware acceleration at all. Imagine someone writing their own client that would allow the game to be played without a monitor installed... A long shot, but a braille client? Of course, you'd also get a lot of automated miners, ISK sellers, and market information strippers, and a few combat pet drones, and solar system patrol bots. As I said, I'll survive the transition, but as a laptop user, I can see the day when I won't be able to, and I can't justify upgrading. AmEx wants me to...which is reason enough not to. As for a station-locked client...how about implementing it in JavaScript? I can see what I'm training from the menu to the left. I just can't change it.
simsjam	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:09:00 - [282] Originally by: Mell Anders I am using a MacBook Pro CoreDuo (not Core2Duo). I'm running Leopard 10.5.6 and run EVE, obviously, through the Transgaming translator. While I have an onboard ATI Radeon x-1600 (capable of SM3), I currently can not run the Premium graphics. The Classic environment works fine "in space" while the "in-station" environments are, shall we say, not pretty. How will this affect me? AMEN! what are they doing at CCP- Reading the Windows development play book? I.E. Lets not fix the present OS and push another one out with all new bugs and require everyone to upgrade their computers to run it.
Ein Spiegel	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:10:00 - [283] Ahh! I figured out how to keep playing Eve (and **** off my wife in the process)... Can't I install Windows on a PS3? Or, more workable, I install Linux onto a PS3, then install the linux client (or WINE the Windows client) on the PS3! Or is that presaging a switch to console gaming which (according to industry magazines) will be the next big thing? Typing could be hard, but Eve Voice integration and audio can't get worse.
Btek State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:10:00 - [284] No issue going to SM2 as minimum, but I'd hold off forcing SM3 for 18 months. Btek
Tweakalvos M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:12:00 - [285] Well ill say this. I'm a college student only have had one computer. So I dont make alot of money. My graphics card is a Geforce 4mx 4000. I dont play the latest stuff because it doesnt work. You phase me out for upgrades I will be forced to play Jumpgate:Evolution. Period. I have played and payed CCP over a year or more. I knew it would come eventually but not as soon as you have done this. But as stated I will be forced to play jumpgate because I hate wow. Eve is my favorite game you phase me out then I cant play the game I love. I have spent over a year of my time you have phased ghost training. And are killing my fun time all because I havent the 1000 dollars for a new computer. Yeah i can get a cheaper one but college books dont pay for themselves. CCP please please dont phase out classic this soon. You want to grow look at Wow they still run an older graphics engine and thrive. Dont phase out something new this game is buggy still but you still want new new new. Well fix the old old old. FIRST. Thank You
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:17:00 - [286] Originally by: Tweakalvos So I dont make alot of money. My graphics card is a Geforce 4mx 4000. I don't see how this is a real issue, honestly. You can get a secondhand GeForce FX for less than $20. Even new they're only around $40, including shipping. Goes in the same slot so no real need to do any other upgrades. If you think a brand-new game like JG:E is going to run on your antiquated hardware I would advice you to think again.
mooey27	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:19:00 - [287] will this proposed change effect myself, im runing a GeForce 9600m GS 512mb? sorry if this seems like a stupid question but my pc/laptop knowledge is very limited.
K0n Fus10n Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:20:00 - [288] Currently running two old boxes, one with a X850 and a 6800 Ultra in the other, both agp. Planning (hoping) to upgrade at least one of them this year. The new changes sounds great imo. o7
SSgt Sniper Gallente legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:31:00 - [289] Seems CCP can't shove me out the door fast enough. These changes will kill BOTH my laptops for running EVE, essentially guaranteeing that I'm history. Way to fail. Also, premium graphics are fugly. They always were fugly, they will always be fugly. The one computer I have that can play with premium graphics has only had them downloaded for a total of five minutes. Then I dumped it. Classic for life.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:33:00 - [290] Originally by: Kaya Divine "making ShaderModel 2 (GeForce FX (5 series) or ATi R300 series cards or compatible) the minimum requirement and discontinue the "Classic client" version of EVE, replacing it with "Premium Lite"" Yet another CCP failure. I do hope that you will get alot of new players, because you will for sure lose huge chunk. It's not CCP's responsibility to allow you to continue to use your old crappy pos box to play games on. Theres no such thing as not upgrading your pc. You either upgrade it, buy a new one, or GET LEFT BEHIND. Deal with it. PC's are cheap. If your not knowledgeable about them, become knowledgeable. Welcome to the modern age of technology. You need to become familiar with it, or you might as well go crawl in a hole somewhere. I HATE PEOPLE WHO POST GARBAGE LIKE WHAT I HAVE QUOTED. Is it really so hard for people to adapt to technology? Even my grandfather who only uses his email on his pc, has one comparable to mine. Even he understands that there may be something he wants but cant use even with email or browsing, unless he has a fairly recent box.

rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:34:00 - [291] Originally by: Bo'Tox Originally by: Alexandra Lucille It seems I am in the same boat as many others in this thread. Dropping SM2 support would leave me unable to play EVE on my laptop which, incidentally, is able to easily handle everything else I use it for. Buying a new laptop exclusively for EVE seems somewhat excessive, regardless of how much I may enjoy the game... Cheap Dells are more than capable of handling Eve - just dont get onboard graphics... in $Aus its around the $1200 mark. In US dollars its about as much as a Hershey bars so just fork over the $$$... Buy a desktop pc. Its cheaper, and you get a lot more functionality out of it. I really dont understand the laptop craze, since they were really meant more for work and mobility, then gaming and games don't really belong on them tbh.
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:41:00 - [292] Originally by: rValdez5987 It's not CCP's responsibility to allow you to continue to use your old crappy pos box to play games on. Theres no such thing as not upgrading your pc. You either upgrade it, buy a new one, or GET LEFT BEHIND. Deal with it. At the same time you kindof have to agree that going from basically no requirements to requiring video capability that has only been mainstream in laptops for about a year is a bit unexpected. If they required shader 2 with Revelations it would be more understandable to require 3 with the release 2 years later. Instead they are jumping 8 years in their technology requirements. Quote: I really dont understand the laptop craze, since they were really meant more for work and mobility, then gaming and games don't really belong on them tbh. MOBILITY. You answered your own question. Followed by mobility (yes, it is important), space required and ease of use. Many of us have families and such and can't sit in the back hallway closet away from everyone. My desktop (which would have no issues playing the porposed winter release) hasn't been used in 6 months because I cannot put it where I need to in order to be with my family. Its now a 1.5 TB glorified PVR I can't play on my laptop, I can't play. Its simply that easy.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:42:00 - [293] oh christ from reading this thread, I can already see the fail in it. This will be the last time I post in here because Im seriously getting **ed off. Its not CCP's fault that your stupid * bought a laptop rather then a desktop which is CHEAPER and can be upgraded. Its not CCP's fault that your married, have children, and your wife has you wrapped around her finger. TBH if thats how your living, quit eve, its not something you can realistically afford. It's not CCP's fault that money is tight for you. If its really that tight that you cant upgrade your pc at any given time, please stop gaming. Its a hobby that you frankly cannot afford. Im sorry to be rude like this, But Im sick and tired of people *****ing and trying to stop progress of everything because they are too lazy, too stupid, or lack the control over their own life to take charge, do whats gotta be done, and get a working and up to date box to game on.
Sean Roach	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:42:00 - [294] A laptop means never having to wait until you get home to use your computer. Originally by: rValdez5987 Buy a desktop pc. Its cheaper, and you get a lot more functionality out of it. I really dont understand the laptop craze, since they were really meant more for work and mobility, then gaming and games don't really belong on them tbh.
Nightsabre Caldari T-Cells	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:45:00 - [295] Totally understand the reasons for doing this, just wish we was given a little more time for those with laptops a few years old to be able to atleast work on getting a new pc... Tho the money saved on subscriptions will now go towards a new pc/laptop.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:47:00 - [296] Originally by: Mikalya Originally by: rValdez5987 It's not CCP's responsibility to allow you to continue to use your old crappy pos box to play games on. Theres no such thing as not upgrading your pc. You either upgrade it, buy a new one, or GET LEFT BEHIND. Deal with it. At the same time you kindof have to agree that going from basically no requirements to requiring video capability that has only been mainstream in laptops for about a year is a bit unexpected. If they required shader 2 with Revelations it would be more understandable to require 3 with the release 2 years later. Instead they are jumping 8 years in their technology requirements. Quote: I really dont understand the laptop craze, since they were really meant more for work and mobility, then gaming and games don't really belong on them tbh. MOBILITY. You answered your own question. Followed by mobility (yes, it is important), space required and ease of use. Many of us have families and such and can't sit in the back hallway closet away from everyone. My desktop (which would have no issues playing the porposed winter release) hasn't been used in 6 months because I cannot put it where I need to in order to be with my family. Its now a 1.5 TB glorified PVR I can't play on my laptop, I can't play. Its simply that easy. As ive already stated, If you have a family requiring that level of attention, you really shouldnt be spending much time if any in EVE. Sorry to say this, but thats the fact. Your always free to live how you want, but that doesn't make it right. For the limited time that I was a father (not by blood, but it wouldve been by adoption had the relationship lasted) I gave up my gaming addiction cold turkey because its the RIGHT THING TO DO. As a parent you lose the freedom that you had before, such is the way of life. I just cant help but think that as a parent spending time in eve, you end up depriving your family somehow regardless. Then again don't mind me, I have different ideas on how society should be run. As far as the laptop and hardware reqs jumping, I still stand my ground on this. You can buy a new pc for under 600 dollars that will run eve maxxed, much less buying a pc that can run it in premium lite. Laptops your SOL on... even my brothers brand new laptop has a hard time with classic client so I dont see what the big deal is with running it on a laptop anyways as you cant really do anything too serious unless you invest a huge some of money. The mobility isn't worth it.
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:49:00 - [297] Originally by: rValdez5987 oh christ from reading this thread, I can already see the fail in it. This will be the last time I post in here because Im seriously getting **ed off. Its not CCP's fault that your stupid * bought a laptop rather then a desktop which is CHEAPER and can be upgraded. Its not CCP's fault that your married, have children, and your wife has you wrapped around her finger. TBH if thats how your living, quit eve, its not something you can realistically afford. It's not CCP's fault that money is tight for you. If its really that tight that you cant upgrade your pc at any given time, please stop gaming. Its a hobby that you frankly cannot afford. Im sorry to be rude like this, But Im sick and tired of people *****ing and trying to stop progress of everything because they are too lazy, too stupid, or lack the control over their own life to take charge, do whats gotta be done, and get a working and up to date box to game on. Wow, you seriously should take some anger management classes The laptop is 1.5 years old, a "gift" from my position at work. It wasn't cheap, it wasn't junk. It is plenty powerful enough to run about anything I need/use it for. But it, like almost all laptops more than a year old, DOES NOT support shader 3. You would be fascinated how many desktops don't either So the question remains: Does CCP want to be even a more niche game requiring hardware components that a large number of their potential clients cannot meet, or will they understand that the economy is in the tank and people aren't going to upgrade equipment just to play a game? Obsidian took the "You need XX specs to play" with NWN 2 about 2 years ago; its sad that NWN1 is STILL outselling NWN2, and has almost 10 times the number of players online at any time. Sad considering its an 8 year old game compared to a 2 year old game.... And yes, prettier graphics is why Obsidian did it. Pretty graphics mean nothing if you can't play and can't afford to replace the equipment to allow you to.
Szu Chang Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:49:00 - [298] Edited by: Szu Chang on 14/01/2009 03:53:16 I like that CCP want us to all have the beauty of Premium graphics, but I feel that its not 100% viable, I am now on a not so good PC (good one got nicked) and this an an ATi Radeon 9250, I maybe able to upgrade come march, but I was made redundant, so money is starting to become tight, and I would have probably taken a break from EVE, if I had not gotten a job before my GTC runs out on patch day, but now it seems with the new graphics, it means that I will no longer be able to play until I am able to get up savings to buy a new PC, as that I have to upgrade the RAM, Motherboard and Processor, especially with the move to the SM3 graphics. MY SPECS CPU: Intel Pentium 4 , 1.70 GHz Video: Plug and Play Monitor on ATi Radeon 9250 (1280x1024x32bpp 60Hz) Sound: Intel(r) Integrated Audio Memory: 448MB SDRAM (forgot Hz speed)
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:49:00 - [299] Originally by: Sean Roach A laptop means never having to wait until you get home to use your computer. Originally by: rValdez5987 Buy a desktop pc. Its cheaper, and you get a lot more functionality out of it. I really dont understand the laptop craze, since they were really meant more for work and mobility, then gaming and games don't really belong on them tbh. I have a laptop. However, Unless I am at home, Im sure as hell not playing EVE. I dont need to login to eve from work, or university, or wherever. I set my skills to come out around the time that i wake up, the time im about to fall asleep, or a time that i know ill be home at come hell or high water. If the worst happens, I let a skill go unchanged. My laptop is used strictly for business, as all should be.
Xori Ruscuv Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:50:00 - [300] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 14/01/2009 03:51:36 Originally by: Kessiaan as Intel's GMA series is the only graphics chipset in common use that's still being installed on new computers that only supports SM2 Yes, I know it's a crap chipset but given the goals outlined in the devblog it would be an ideal minimum standard. This. @ all the "omg I know so much about computers" types that seem to miss this simple fact. Or the ones whose rich mommies bought them alienware crap for their brief ventures out of their basements. Originally by: rValdez5987 I have a laptop. However, Unless I am at home, Im sure as hell not playing EVE. I dont need to login to eve from work, or university, or wherever. I set my skills to come out around the time that i wake up, the time im about to fall asleep, or a time that i know ill be home at come hell or high water. If the worst happens, I let a skill go unchanged. My laptop is used strictly for business, as all should be. Goooood for you, spanky! Did it ever occur to you that few people live lives identical to your own? It just so happens that CCP wishes to satisfy customers other than just you (or your clones, apparently!)

SSgt Sniper Gallente legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:51:00 - [301] Originally by: rValdez5987 Originally by: Kaya Divine "making ShaderModel 2 (GeForce FX (5 series) or ATi R300 series cards or compatible) the minimum requirement and discontinue the "Classic client" version of EVE, replacing it with "Premium Lite"" Yet another CCP failure. I do hope that you will get alot of new players, because you will for sure lose huge chunk. It's not CCP's responsibility to allow you to continue to use your old crappy pos box to play games on. Theres no such thing as not upgrading your pc. You either upgrade it, buy a new one, or GET LEFT BEHIND. Deal with it. PC's are cheap. If your not knowledgeable about them, become knowledgeable. Welcome to the modern age of technology. You need to become familiar with it, or you might as well go crawl in a hole somewhere. I HATE PEOPLE WHO POST GARBAGE LIKE WHAT I HAVE QUOTED. Is it really so hard for people to adapt to technology? Even my grandfather who only uses his email on his pc, has one comparable to mine. Even he understands that there may be something he wants but cant use even with email or browsing, unless he has a fairly recent box. You sir are a ****. I'd elaborate but I'm a little bit busy trying to see if there's a workaround so that my two year old computer can continue to run a over five year old game. ------- CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.Poor PR in progress!
Islington Morte Federation of Xenotech Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:51:00 - [302] In the Winter Expansion 2009 we are considering discontinuing support for ShaderModel 2 and make the minimum specification ShaderModel 3(GeForce 6 class cards or ATi x1300 or compatible) Guess that is when I have to stop playing... Radeon xpress 220M on my laptop. shader 2 only. only 3 years old and works fine... Hell if i am buying a new laptop just to play EvE. I travel for work and do not have the option to lugg my real rig around during the week. THINK CCP Not everyone buys a new laptop every 3 years... and most people do not spend the cash for a HIGH END laptop that will be current for more than 3 years down the road. Kiss my 3 accounts goodbye... and... NO you can not have my stuff...
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:52:00 - [303] The flaming going on here is just silly. Personally, I am a PC gaming enthusiast. I have a purpose-built, reasonably current gaming desktop and a cheap little laptop for on-the-go computing that gets the job done. These changes have zero overall impact on me. But I realize not everyone has the same hobbies as me and for normal people spending $1000 or more every year on computer hardware isn't some they're going to be enthused about. They might (gasp) only see a need for a single computer and not want to upgrade it until it's so old that throwing it out and getting another one is a better deal. They might not even (again, GASP!) understand how to upgrade their systems piecemeal and not buy into overhyped products in order to save themselves some money. This is why it's important for Eve to remain playable on as many systems as possible. While I'm 100% positive Eve has a much higher proportion of PC gaming enthusiasts among their population than, say, World of Warcraft, it's not reasonable to expect everyone to be that way. In the end, we all play Eve to have fun. If CCP says they want to cut SM1 support because it's expensive and only 3% of the population will be forced to upgrade systems that even they have to know are hopelessly obsolete, I can get on board with that. Dropping SM2 though, especially when lots of low-end computers still ship with graphics that don't support SM3, is just not a good idea though, IMO.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:53:00 - [304] Originally by: Mikalya Originally by: rValdez5987 oh christ from reading this thread, I can already see the fail in it. This will be the last time I post in here because Im seriously getting **ed off. Its not CCP's fault that your stupid * bought a laptop rather then a desktop which is CHEAPER and can be upgraded. Its not CCP's fault that your married, have children, and your wife has you wrapped around her finger. TBH if thats how your living, quit eve, its not something you can realistically afford. It's not CCP's fault that money is tight for you. If its really that tight that you cant upgrade your pc at any given time, please stop gaming. Its a hobby that you frankly cannot afford. Im sorry to be rude like this, But Im sick and tired of people *****ing and trying to stop progress of everything because they are too lazy, too stupid, or lack the control over their own life to take charge, do whats gotta be done, and get a working and up to date box to game on. Wow, you seriously should take some anger management classes The laptop is 1.5 years old, a "gift" from my position at work. It wasn't cheap, it wasn't junk. It is plenty powerful enough to run about anything I need/use it for. But it, like almost all laptops more than a year old, DOES NOT support shader 3. You would be fascinated how many desktops don't either So the question remains: Does CCP want to be even a more niche game requiring hardware components that a large number of their potential clients cannot meet, or will they understand that the economy is in the tank and people aren't going to upgrade equipment just to play a game? Obsidian took the "You need XX specs to play" with NWN 2 about 2 years ago; its sad that NWN1 is STILL outselling NWN2, and has almost 10 times the number of players online at any time. Sad considering its an 8 year old game compared to a 2 year old game.... And yes, prettier graphics is why Obsidian did it. Pretty graphics mean nothing if you can't play and can't afford to replace the equipment to allow you to. Yes, your right. I really do need anger management classes. I have to deal with people every day that flat out don't want to "evolve" so to speak. They cut corners, they don't want to upgrade to the proper hardware, and yet complain like its my fault when new things don't work. You got it right. I work in I.T. I've been begging and praying for people to start to understand that relatively speaking, hardware is dirt cheap, upgrading properly is smart, and it would make my job that much easier. But to work in such an environment, then come here, to the forums, of my "hobby" and see people doing THE SAME THING, just makes me lost my temper. Im sorry if i've offended anyone.
Pestulence Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:54:00 - [305] My issue with this is not the capability of my hardware to run the game - it's the ability to run 4-5 instances of the game on one computer. I pay for 8 active accounts. It is not uncommon for me to mine with three hulks, a hauler (training to Orca), a Battleship for protection from RATs. Under Premium Graphics, I can run 2 instances of the game reliably - 3 instances and I start crashing to desktop. With Classic Graphics, I can run 4-5 instances on my Mac Laptop running Vista 64.
Crass Spektakel Coreward Technologies	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:54:00 - [306] I've got four computers where I sometimes run EVE: -Eight Core Xeon System with Geforce 8800GTX WindowsXP64 -Quad Core Core2 System with Geforce 8800GT Ubuntu6.06 32bit, soon 8.04 64bit -AthlonXP-2100+ with Geforce 6800 WindowsXP32 -AsusEEE Atom-230/1600Mhz with GSE945 WindowXP32 Funny but most time I play with the EEE because it is so easy to have around. Crass Spektakel life is short and in most cases it ends with death but my tombstone will carry the hiscore
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:55:00 - [307] Originally by: SSgt Sniper Originally by: rValdez5987 Originally by: Kaya Divine "making ShaderModel 2 (GeForce FX (5 series) or ATi R300 series cards or compatible) the minimum requirement and discontinue the "Classic client" version of EVE, replacing it with "Premium Lite"" Yet another CCP failure. I do hope that you will get alot of new players, because you will for sure lose huge chunk. It's not CCP's responsibility to allow you to continue to use your old crappy pos box to play games on. Theres no such thing as not upgrading your pc. You either upgrade it, buy a new one, or GET LEFT BEHIND. Deal with it. PC's are cheap. If your not knowledgeable about them, become knowledgeable. Welcome to the modern age of technology. You need to become familiar with it, or you might as well go crawl in a hole somewhere. I HATE PEOPLE WHO POST GARBAGE LIKE WHAT I HAVE QUOTED. Is it really so hard for people to adapt to technology? Even my grandfather who only uses his email on his pc, has one comparable to mine. Even he understands that there may be something he wants but cant use even with email or browsing, unless he has a fairly recent box. You sir are a ****. I'd elaborate but I'm a little bit busy trying to see if there's a workaround so that my two year old computer can continue to run a over five year old game. There is an easy work around. It's called buy a new box. Or, I have a 2 year old pc, with a Geforce 7600 GS in it, and 1.5 GB ddr2 533 ram. It runs eve in 1680x1050 with shadows and bloom off in premium at 100 fps. I was looking at selling it for $150 dollars. rofl.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 03:58:00 - [308] Originally by: Pestulence Edited by: Pestulence on 14/01/2009 03:55:56 My issue with this is not the capability of my hardware to run the game - it's the ability to run 4-5 instances of the game on one computer. I pay for 8 active accounts. It is not uncommon for me to mine with three hulks, a hauler (training to Orca), a Battleship for protection from RATs. Under Premium Graphics, I can run 2 instances of the game reliably - 3 instances and I start crashing to desktop. With Classic Graphics, I can run 4-5 instances on my Mac Laptop running Vista 64. And I do have a gaming desktop that I also use - when I'm home.. To be fair I've got a spanking new gaming rig, and even I cant do that. But then again, that many clients on one box is a bit insane. I'd just buy 2 more box's, and run 3 accounts each. Thats just me though. Speaking of, I do have another box sitting next to me that sometimes runs multiple accounts when my main one is tied up.
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:00:00 - [309] i think the best possible thing to do with classic if it takes too many resources and man power to create the 2nd graphics is simply don't. Ppl will live with missing graphics it's not a big deal. If anything you could make the graphics open source for classic and let the community update them if they so wish. ----------------------------------------------- Free Trade Corp - Flash page "Nothing about Eve should be easy. Not even ganking." -Rhohan
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:01:00 - [310] Originally by: rValdez5987 Yes, your right. I really do need anger management classes. I have to deal with people every day that flat out don't want to "evolve" so to speak. They cut corners, they don't want to upgrade to the proper hardware, and yet complain like its my fault when new things don't work. You got it right. I work in I.T. Congratulations, so do I. And I deal with enough overloaded servers, under-powered machines, heat-spazzing switches, **ty databases and the like every day I play a couple of video games to relax. I've got my fill of the "awesomeness" of computers; if it does the job I no longer care about the bells and whistles. It isn't a hobby anymore, I game to relax. Quote: I've been begging and praying for people to start to understand that relatively speaking, hardware is dirt cheap, upgrading properly is smart, and it would make my job that much easier. I agree. But if someone came along and said "Not a bad network, but we are putting in a new financial system. Replace all your network hardware, servers and desktops by next November" you would tell them to go fly a kite Quote:** Im sorry if i've offended anyone. No biggie. And not offended, just trying to explain that a lot of people play this game that can't or won't afford to take this step. SHader 2 this spring, shader 3 the following year maybe a different story.

Kryttos Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:03:00 - [311] you know what ive noticed.. noone from major alliances ever has a problem with things like this =p
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:06:00 - [312] Originally by: Kessiaan The flaming going on here is just silly. Personally, I am a PC gaming enthusiast. I have a purpose-built, reasonably current gaming desktop and a cheap little laptop for on-the-go computing that gets the job done. These changes have zero overall impact on me. But I realize not everyone has the same hobbies as me and for normal people spending $1000 or more every year on computer hardware isn't some they're going to be enthused about. They might (gasp) only see a need for a single computer and not want to upgrade it until it's so old that throwing it out and getting another one is a better deal. They might not even (again, GASP!) understand how to upgrade their systems piecemeal and not buy into overhyped products in order to save themselves some money. This is why it's important for Eve to remain playable on as many systems as possible. While I'm 100% positive Eve has a much higher proportion of PC gaming enthusiasts among their population than, say, World of Warcraft, it's not reasonable to expect everyone to be that way. In the end, we all play Eve to have fun. If CCP says they want to cut SM1 support because it's expensive and only 3% of the population will be forced to upgrade systems that even they have to know are hopelessly obsolete, I can get on board with that. Dropping SM2 though, especially when lots of low-end computers still ship with graphics that don't support SM3, is just not a good idea though, IMO. As I said somewhere else in this thread, I live in the states, and I paid $600 dollars 2 years ago for a pc with the following specs: [bold] 3.4ghz p4 multithreading 800mhz fsb, 1.5gb ddr2 567 mhz ram, 320gb hdd, Geforce 7600 GS AGP 512mb, gaming case, 800 watt antec psu, pc chips dual core capable board [/bold] Recently I upgraded again once again for $600 dollars. This time I got this: [bold] 3.0ghz E8400 dual core 1333fsb, 2GB DDR2 800mhz ram, 1 80gb drive + 320 gb drive, Geforce 9800GTX+OC PCI-E graphics card, gaming case, 800 watt psu, pc chips dual/quad core capable board [/bold] The site I used, which probably 99% of the earths population are completely oblivious to is http://www.pricewatch.com Go there, select the appropriate options under barebones, and go and customize your rig. Dont add the fluff like an operating system, or more hardware then you need, make use of other hardware like hard drives that you can bring over, or fans etc, just as long as your sure it wont slow your system down, also for the love of god, purchase a standalone Operating system that can be installed on any PC (NOT OEM VERSION, OR UPGRADE VERSION) and use that everytime you buy a new pc or upgrade. Normally I dont post this much, but as usual theres TOO MUCH MISINFORMATION AND EXCUSES in this thread, and im not allowing this to happen this time.
Rorix Whitecloud Caldari Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:07:00 - [313] I don't know how many of us there are, but i'm one of the (probably) very very few people who uses their EEE PC (1000H) to run EVE as their primary machine. I'm a college student, and don't really have money to spend to buy another laptop, so killing PS 2.0 would really screw me over. Sure, i can just load EVE onto a USB stick to play on a school computer, but then instead of something relaxing i can do at home, EVE then becomes more like a chore, that i have to be away from home to enjoy. I'd imagine that forcing the switch to PS 3.0 would screw a good deal of the laptop using (as primary computer) people out there... Goal: To blaster-fit every Caldari ship with a gun slot! :D
Pestulence Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:09:00 - [314] RValdez - Yeah, I've got ADD, smoke pot, and work in IT.. This is what happens when you've been in IT too long.. I go out of town a lot - so doing all on the laptop - at least three hulks and a hauler - is key.. It is nice when I come home and play on my 24" Widescreen!! :) But, lappy is where I normally lurk..
Vir Mihir	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:09:00 - [315] Maybe CCP should add in something like dark nova planets and what not? :P
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:12:00 - [316] Originally by: Mikalya Originally by: rValdez5987 Yes, your right. I really do need anger management classes. I have to deal with people every day that flat out don't want to "evolve" so to speak. They cut corners, they don't want to upgrade to the proper hardware, and yet complain like its my fault when new things don't work. You got it right. I work in I.T. Congratulations, so do I. And I deal with enough overloaded servers, under-powered machines, heat-spazzing switches, **ty databases and the like every day I play a couple of video games to relax. I've got my fill of the "awesomeness" of computers; if it does the job I no longer care about the bells and whistles. It isn't a hobby anymore, I game to relax. Quote: I've been begging and praying for people to start to understand that relatively speaking, hardware is dirt cheap, upgrading properly is smart, and it would make my job that much easier. I agree. But if someone came along and said "Not a bad network, but we are putting in a new financial system. Replace all your network hardware, servers and desktops by next November" you would tell them to go fly a kite Quote:** Im sorry if i've offended anyone. No biggie. And not offended, just trying to explain that a lot of people play this game that can't or won't afford to take this step. SHader 2 this spring, shader 3 the following year maybe a different story. The only issue I had was with what you said about the upgrading bit. If their new financial system was really that good, and they could demonstrate that new hardware was needed, I would personally approve new hardware even if it was from money coming out of my pocket. Such upgrades are an INVESTMENT, not a money sink in my opinion. However, It depends on the relative age of the hardware. In this case we are talking about hardware thats 2 years old or greater for the most part. Its VERY REASONABLE to expect you to upgrade after 2 years, if you want to maintain your gaming hobby. EVE is an evolving game, the graphics requirements will continue to increase. We arent like some of the other games that get released, get a few patches and fixes, then development ceases until the game enters the trash can. EVE is constantly being added to and made anew, the devs are correct in their thinking.
SSgt Sniper Gallente legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:14:00 - [317] Originally by: rValdez5987 Originally by: Pestulence Edited by: Pestulence on 14/01/2009 03:55:56 My issue with this is not the capability of my hardware to run the game - it's the ability to run 4-5 instances of the game on one computer. I pay for 8 active accounts. It is not uncommon for me to mine with three hulks, a hauler (training to Orca), a Battleship for protection from RATs. Under Premium Graphics, I can run 2 instances of the game reliably - 3 instances and I start crashing to desktop. With Classic Graphics, I can run 4-5 instances on my Mac Laptop running Vista 64. And I do have a gaming desktop that I also use - when I'm home.. To be fair I've got a spanking new gaming rig, and even I cant do that. But then again, that many clients on one box is a bit insane. I'd just buy 2 more box's, and run 3 accounts each. Thats just me though. Speaking of, I do have another box sitting next to me that sometimes runs multiple accounts when my main one is tied up. Because I can ** money whenever I like. In the current economical situation. Where our incoming money is two thirds what it was last year and we're damn lucky it was only that much a cut. Yes I can afford to play eve as it is. If they increase what it costs for me, whether it be a rate hike on subs or a forced upgrade on hardware, it's still pricing me out. I can make it work if I absolutely had to if I have no other choice, but I won't. I'm not going to stop putting money in my investments just to keep playing EVE. I'm fricking lucky I have money to continue to put in the damn retirement account tbqfh. Point I'm making boils down to two points: A five year old game should not require upgrades that literally mean a lot of people will have no choice but to buy new computers or stop playing, yes I know they did it to windows 98 users but I thought that was wrong too. And on the second, doing it at a time when budgets are shrinking instead of increasing is absolutely frickin ****ed. ------- CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.Poor PR in progress!
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:15:00 - [318] Originally by: Pestulence RValdez - Yeah, I've got ADD, smoke pot, and work in IT.. This is what happens when you've been in IT too long.. I go out of town a lot - so doing all on the laptop - at least three hulks and a hauler - is key.. It is nice when I come home and play on my 24" Widescreen!! :) But, lappy is where I normally lurk.. I'm just different I guess... Never done drugs, I used to drink but gave it up for myself to better my health, Got back in shape, and gaming is basically a hobby that assists me in keeping with whats new and whats happening. When I'm out of town, the only thing I care to keep up with (or have time to keep up with for that matter) is general garbage on the internet which my Sony Vaio does fine (1.5ghz, 512mb ram, 16mb vid card etc). I am unfortunately not so lucky as to actually be able to play eve while away on business, and if I leave town for any other reason it would be for a vacation or to see my family, in which case EVE isn't my concern anyways. Damn maybe im just old fashioned. lol.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:20:00 - [319] Edited by: rValdez5987 on 14/01/2009 04:22:25 Originally by: SSgt Sniper Originally by: rValdez5987 Originally by: Pestulence Edited by: Pestulence on 14/01/2009 03:55:56 My issue with this is not the capability of my hardware to run the game - it's the ability to run 4-5 instances of the game on one computer. I pay for 8 active accounts. It is not uncommon for me to mine with three hulks, a hauler (training to Orca), a Battleship for protection from RATs. Under Premium Graphics, I can run 2 instances of the game reliably - 3 instances and I start crashing to desktop. With Classic Graphics, I can run 4-5 instances on my Mac Laptop running Vista 64. And I do have a gaming desktop that I also use - when I'm home.. To be fair I've got a spanking new gaming rig, and even I cant do that. But then again, that many clients on one box is a bit insane. I'd just buy 2 more box's, and run 3 accounts each. Thats just me though. Speaking of, I do have another box sitting next to me that sometimes runs multiple accounts when my main one is tied up. Because I can ** money whenever I like. In the current economical situation. Where our incoming money is two thirds what it was last year and we're damn lucky it was only that much a cut. Yes I can afford to play eve as it is. If they increase what it costs for me, whether it be a rate hike on subs or a forced upgrade on hardware, it's still pricing me out. I can make it work if I absolutely had to if I have no other choice, but I won't. I'm not going to stop putting money in my investments just to keep playing EVE. I'm fricking lucky I have money to continue to put in the damn retirement account tbqfh. Point I'm making boils down to two points: A five year old game should not require upgrades that literally mean a lot of people will have no choice but to buy new computers or stop playing, yes I know they did it to windows 98 users but I thought that was wrong too. And on the second, doing it at a time when budgets are shrinking instead of increasing is absolutely frickin ****ed. Your missing the point my friend. It has to be done. Technology WILL NOT STOP EVOLVING because your broke or times are hard. If the world operated according to the way you expect it to, it would hinder the worlds technological development. As a result of this looming financial crisis even more technology would be cut back in favor of saving money. Sadly this is exactly what happened to the United States infrastructure, with the telecommunications companies not upgrading infrastructure along the same levels as other developed countries. As a result we are significantly behind. When times are hard, you have to cut out your hobbies and go back to the basics of entertainment until you can afford better. Its your responsibility to do this not CCP's responsibility to stop moving forward and simplifying development of THEIR game which you ultimately pay for, but I digress, they are still responsible for its timely advancement. Also, I know how bad things are. I've lost my job twice, and have only technically been employed for 12 months out of the last 24. Luckily I make enough money while Im employed to offset my losses from when I'm not. But believe me when I say this, If I dont have the money to keep upgraded, and saw something like this, I would simply unsubscribe until I could afford the parts for a box capable of playing eve, rather then protesting it here on the forums. I'm not one to stand in the way of progress. Even if that progress leaves me behind.
Pestulence Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:23:00 - [320] Originally by: rValdez5987 Originally by: Pestulence RValdez - Yeah, I've got ADD, smoke pot, and work in IT.. This is what happens when you've been in IT too long.. I go out of town a lot - so doing all on the laptop - at least three hulks and a hauler - is key.. It is nice when I come home and play on my 24" Widescreen!! :) But, lappy is where I normally lurk.. I'm just different I guess... Never done drugs, I used to drink but gave it up for myself to better my health, Got back in shape, and gaming is basically a hobby that assists me in keeping with whats new and whats happening. When I'm out of town, the only thing I care to keep up with (or have time to keep up with for that matter) is general garbage on the internet which my Sony Vaio does fine (1.5ghz, 512mb ram, 16mb vid card etc). I am unfortunately not so lucky as to actually be able to play eve while away on business, and if I leave town for any other reason it would be for a vacation or to see my family, in which case EVE isn't my concern anyways. Damn maybe im just old fashioned. lol. Good for you on the drugs, quitting drinking, getting into shape thing.. I should probably think about doing some of that. I don't know why you thought I go out of town for business. That was mighty presumptuous of you. And my life situation is not like yours - I have no family to vacation to see. I am truly glad you enjoy your family vacations; however. I'm also glad your employer spends so much on IT - Man, to swap out 150,000 users every two years with new computers!!! Wow!! To swap out over 25,000 servers every two years!! Man, it must be nice to work with a non-publicly traded company!!! Especially in these times of economic uncertainty!!

SSgt Sniper Gallente legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:27:00 - [321] Originally by: rValdez5987 Originally by: SSgt Sniper Originally by: rValdez5987 Originally by: Pestulence Edited by: Pestulence on 14/01/2009 03:55:56 My issue with this is not the capability of my hardware to run the game - it's the ability to run 4-5 instances of the game on one computer. I pay for 8 active accounts. It is not uncommon for me to mine with three hulks, a hauler (training to Orca), a Battleship for protection from RATs. Under Premium Graphics, I can run 2 instances of the game reliably - 3 instances and I start crashing to desktop. With Classic Graphics, I can run 4-5 instances on my Mac Laptop running Vista 64. And I do have a gaming desktop that I also use - when I'm home.. To be fair I've got a spanking new gaming rig, and even I cant do that. But then again, that many clients on one box is a bit insane. I'd just buy 2 more box's, and run 3 accounts each. Thats just me though. Speaking of, I do have another box sitting next to me that sometimes runs multiple accounts when my main one is tied up. Because I can ** money whenever I like. In the current economical situation. Where our incoming money is two thirds what it was last year and we're damn lucky it was only that much a cut. Yes I can afford to play eve as it is. If they increase what it costs for me, whether it be a rate hike on subs or a forced upgrade on hardware, it's still pricing me out. I can make it work if I absolutely had to if I have no other choice, but I won't. I'm not going to stop putting money in my investments just to keep playing EVE. I'm fricking lucky I have money to continue to put in the damn retirement account tbqfh. Point I'm making boils down to two points: A five year old game should not require upgrades that literally mean a lot of people will have no choice but to buy new computers or stop playing, yes I know they did it to windows 98 users but I thought that was wrong too. And on the second, doing it at a time when budgets are shrinking instead of increasing is absolutely frickin ****ed. Your missing the point my friend. It has to be done. Technology WILL NOT STOP EVOLVING because your broke or times are hard. If the world operated according to the way you expect it to, it would hinder the worlds technological development. As a result of this looming financial crisis even more technology would be cut back in favor of saving money. Sadly this is exactly what happened to the United States infrastructure, with the telecommunications companies not upgrading infrastructure along the same levels as other developed countries. As a result we are significantly behind. When times are hard, you have to cut out your hobbies and go back to the basics of entertainment until you can afford better. Its your responsibility to do this not CCP's responsibility to stop moving forward and simplifying development of THEIR game which you ultimately pay for, but I digress, they are still responsible for its timely advancement. This is THE CHEAPEST HOBBY I HAVE! Stop telling me it's supposed to be the most expensive. I honestly think you're just trolling people to do it at this point. This all ends around the fact I (and quite a few people I know) don't even like the premium graphics. They are butt fricking ugly to me. I LIKE the old models. They look nicer to me. And they will fall by the wayside when the classic client goes.
5n4keyes Sacred Templars Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:28:00 - [322] I think the issue is timing... Had we of known say, Fanfest that this was coming, I think it would be a much better responce from the community as a whole. Especially since christmas just passed, younger people could of asked for a new graphics card from santa rather than the latest shoot em up. Students with a limited budget could of had time to save up the money for a new card. The biggest issue is those who travel about, or use multiple computers to connect, I personally use a Laptop which wont work with the new system, for over half of my gameplay time! Its probably not so much that oh only 5% of the community cant play, its that theres a large proportion of the community that was able to grab a laptop, old pc whilst not at there usual pc will now miss out on playing a game which everyone loves. As I say, its down to timing, 2 months notice clearly not enough, CCP you clearly would of known about this change a good while ago, otherwise you wasted a crapton of time on development of the T3 models, so why wait til now to say something...
Fire Trail	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:30:00 - [323] Not a fan of this idea. Even though according to the website you linked my graphics card can do SM3 I use classic because it is faster on my computer (probably due to the processor). I installed premium and when the camera movments weren't as fluid I went back to classic. If I were to be forced to make a choice between choppy graphics or not playing the game I would probably choose not to play the game.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:33:00 - [324] This is THE CHEAPEST HOBBY I HAVE! Stop telling me it's supposed to be the most expensive. I honestly think you're just trolling people to do it at this point. This all ends around the fact I (and quite a few people I know) don't even like the premium graphics. They are butt fricking ugly to me. I LIKE the old models. They look nicer to me. And they will fall by the wayside when the classic client goes. Huh? Gaming is your cheapest hobby? $600 dollars every two years isn't expensive..... you pay what $300 every two years for your EVE sub, and most of you have plenty of alt accounts... Im failing to see the issue here.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 04:39:00 - [325] Quote: Good for you on the drugs, quitting drinking, getting into shape thing.. I should probably think about doing some of that. I don't know why you thought I go out of town for business. That was mighty presumptuous of you. And my life situation is not like yours - I have no family to vacation to see. I am truly glad you enjoy your family vacations; however. I'm also glad your employer spends so much on IT - Man, to swap out 150,000 users every two years with new computers!!! Wow!! To swap out over 25,000 servers every two years!! Man, it must be nice to work with a non-publicly traded company!!! Especially in these times of economic uncertainty!! Your being a bit overzealous, but a good employer understands when systems are too outdated. I.T is easy when your boss is intelligent. Its a pain in the ass when he's not. I dont feed any BS when im outlining what upgrades are necessary. I detail what his expectations are, what he needs, and the flat cost at the best available price. Period. Theres always a little bit of flexibility but not much. Mind you not all people can afford it, but those types usually aren't the main ones I'm looking to doing business with anyways.... If you cant afford the hardware to run a new type of software on, how can you even afford the software itself.... If you can show a need of new hardware to your boss, when he wants to run new software, you should be able to get it approved. That or your boss is a pennypincher or your company is going down the crapper. Point is, new software usually requires new hardware from time to time. End result = you upgrade. Pretty much it tbh. CCP decided its time, and hopefully they will stick to this. Like Ghost training, the nano nerf, and everything else, its for the good of the community.
xStormwingx Dark Star Cartel Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:02:00 - [326] Edited by: xStormwingx on 14/01/2009 05:05:27 Originally by: Rorix Whitecloud I don't know how many of us there are, but i'm one of the (probably) very very few people who uses their EEE PC (1000H) to run EVE as their primary machine. I'm a college student, and don't really have money to spend to buy another laptop, so killing PS 2.0 would really screw me over. If I had an EEE PC, I'd probably do the same thing ...those little things are so convenient. how about at least delay the death of Premium Lite indefinitely? It just so happens that I might be picking a new PS 3.0-enabled laptop this summer so I'll dodge the bullet, but keeping 2.0 for a while longer is a better idea. how many people still use sub-2.0 cards? ------- pew pew lol
Arch Miner	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:08:00 - [327] "To accommodate older PCs and those who prefer to run twenty clients of EVE while they run SETI@Home and ray trace while compressing HD movies, we will deliver what we refer to as "Premium Lite."" Man, they must have a spy in my computer room.... People are being really unfair to the dropping of classic client for the premium lite one. I have a computer I built in 2002 for $600 that I use for trade runs and such that plays EVE just fine still. It will even run the premium graphics if i turn off all the fancy crap. And for some reason, (and this is a new development) my computer actually runs the premium client better than the classic one now hehe.
Sean Roach	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:08:00 - [328] Edited by: Sean Roach on 14/01/2009 05:11:20 I'm glad I don't know you, valdez. You probably think a person should have a new car to be allowed on the interstate too. edited to add name.
Pvt Public7 Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:16:00 - [329] My current graphics card does not support SM3. I will not be purchasing a newer card at any point for the next 24 months at least. Dropping SM1 is fine, nobody runs that any more. Dropping SM2 is idiocy. Unless CCP states that SM2 will NOT be dropped within that time, I'll be letting my subscription lapse in 2 months. I have other things to spend money on. --- SWA was here IAC is a loser
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:19:00 - [330] Originally by: Sean Roach Edited by: Sean Roach on 14/01/2009 05:11:20 I'm glad I don't know you, valdez. You probably think a person should have a new car to be allowed on the interstate too. edited to add name. A new car costs a hell of a lot more then a pc, on top of this, even if you lease it your still paying 150-400 dollars a month. Sorry but your comparison is crap, and is irrelevant. Also, I drive an old truck. Its been kept in great condition, and is more then capable of keeping with traffic and obeying all laws and regulations. To make better use of your analogy, I'm saying that I don't want people driving around old beaten up cars that cant follow the regulations set forth. I don't have a problem with people using old pcs so long as they understand that to continue to enjoy EVE they are going to have to upgrade. Whining and moaning wont stop EVE from taking steps forward and continuing to advance so that it remains as a powerful gaming experience in the years to come. For the love of god if your going to point out flaws in my logic, do so properly, and with more effort.

Hikaru Kai	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:20:00 - [331] It's not CCP's fault the economy is in the tank. Indirectly Americans are to blame for their "woes" since they stupidly voted in a president that ruined not just the economy but pretty much ever aspect of your country. CCP is trying to move on, move ahead in the development of their game. If people *** and moan about upgrading 6-10 year old hardware, on the basis they cannot afford sub $100 component(s), then they shouldn't be playing the game in the first place. This ing American attitude of wanting everything for nothing, without any work, always a "me me me" attitude, sickens me. Get over yourselves. America is not the ing centre of the universe, no matter how many attempts at installing Freedom in other countries you fail at. Stop *ing. Stop it. Originally by:** Mikalya ... So the question remains: Does CCP want to be even a more niche game requiring hardware components that a large number of their potential clients cannot meet, or will they understand that the economy is in the tank and people aren't going to upgrade equipment just to play a game? ...
AbudSeab	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:22:00 - [332] Edited by: AbudSeab on 14/01/2009 05:23:25 Eve is the first game a ever see with two different graphic contents for same things instead of a detail level control. Everyone who see me playing EVE in classic client already says it's beutifull... Why have you created premium graphics at all ? The cooler of my notebook (an Asus F8Sseries) run as crazy when I simply start EVE. Even in station with no 3D graphics it's that way. It doesn't happen with counter-strike, unreal, quake, etc... A lot of people I know (myself included) run EVE during his working time but keeps it in backgroup (autopiloting, checking orders, mining, or running mission semi-afk) so remember that it's not a question of how is the maximum capability a modern computer. The main question is that EVE can't be an application that bother others most of time to a lot of people. I will stop to play if I can't run in a low end computer or if it bother my work. I can easily find a lot of people that if polled about what content to finish will pick classic end finish with premium. abud
Frug Repo Industries	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:25:00 - [333] Dunno where you get these stats that 95% of people will have SM3 support. Doesn't seem that way to me. That move will be mildly annoying. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Gaius Proeliator Caldari Omega Propulsion	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:28:00 - [334] Please, please, PLEASE do not remove ShaderModel 2.0 support. While my desktop is more than capable of running premium content, my laptop does not have ShaderModel 3.0 support (it has an ATI Mobility Radeon X700). While I like the idea of Premium Lite, I believe removing ShaderModel 2.0 support would be a big mistake.
Aldiree Antima Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:29:00 - [335] Dropping classic Client and SM 1.x is OK for me. I wouldn't like loosing my Laptop as eve-client! So SM 3.x is not OK. Laptop with SM 2.0/128 MB Desktop with SM 4.1/256 MB I agree with economical/developer standpoint that two clients create more problems than benefits for EVE! MMOs needs to evolve, new technology should replace. The potential with dropping the eve-classic will rise. IMHO dropping SM 2.x so fast is not a great move. The benefit seams to be much smaller and the restrictions for game designer and devs are not clear at this time. Another stepping stone for dropping SM 2.x is the AGP/PCIe-Barrier for Desktops. Upgrading only the graphics card make often for this type systems not much sense, hence bang for your buck ratio is low and a total upgrade might not be feasible. The change of minimum specs in December could generate a much larger uproar then this announcement, since new player need to upgrade only half a year they bought eve. I wouldn't like it for sure. My wish list @CCP: ~ make a survey to gather enough samples to decide wisly ~ make the gathered information in right portions aviable to us. We seek to gain enlightenment for peace of our souls. ~ please delay dropping 2.x to summer 2010 or later ~ make mobile experience more fun. an eve-portable without 3d for skill switching, chat, eve-mail, trading and guild management. ~ invest some of your future resources improve the IGB or kick this damn thing! It's slow like hell. It's no fun to wait 30 sec to render a simple eve optimized page. Practical unusable!
Minud Distr Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:31:00 - [336] Edited by: Minud Distr on 14/01/2009 05:32:39 Sure, my desktop have SM 3.0... but it also lags like hell with premium content. More specifically, I get decent FPS, but a lot of hiccups, making it unplayable. Now, this is not the right thread for trying to solve this, and I tried everything already anyway, but my point is: can we test that premium lite client soon? Right now I'm pretty skeptical about this. Having a machine with SM3 doesn't mean the client is going to run as well as classic. Oh, and btw, this is just single-client. What about people dual (or more, eheh)-clienting ? Will that run well too ?
Ariel Acterus	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:34:00 - [337] Originally by: Kessiaan The flaming going on here is just silly. Personally, I am a PC gaming enthusiast. I have a purpose-built, reasonably current gaming desktop and a cheap little laptop for on-the-go computing that gets the job done. These changes have zero overall impact on me. But I realize not everyone has the same hobbies as me and for normal people spending $1000 or more every year on computer hardware isn't some they're going to be enthused about. They might (gasp) only see a need for a single computer and not want to upgrade it until it's so old that throwing it out and getting another one is a better deal. They might not even (again, GASP!) understand how to upgrade their systems piecemeal and not buy into overhyped products in order to save themselves some money. This is why it's important for Eve to remain playable on as many systems as possible. While I'm 100% positive Eve has a much higher proportion of PC gaming enthusiasts among their population than, say, World of Warcraft, it's not reasonable to expect everyone to be that way. In the end, we all play Eve to have fun. If CCP says they want to cut SM1 support because it's expensive and only 3% of the population will be forced to upgrade systems that even they have to know are hopelessly obsolete, I can get on board with that. Dropping SM2 though, especially when lots of low-end computers still ship with graphics that don't support SM3, is just not a good idea though, IMO. You, sir, win the most rational post of day! :)
Marleau LeRoi Caldari Praetorian Freespace	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:42:00 - [338] To everyone who can't or won't upgrade, what game are you going to play instead? Is there anything out there worth playing that actually supports such ancient stuff? If dumping support for hardware that every other game manufacturer did long ago means that I get more updates (ie new planet/moon textures, fancy effects), then, well... sorry to see you leave.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:45:00 - [339] Great you release this today after I paid for a year of service 2 days ago..... I'm not sure my computer can run the new system had I known this before hand I would have paid by the month until I was sure. I doubt my computer can run EVE after March 10th, and I doubt I can afford another computer :(. It's a 4 year old Dell :(. Sadly I'm at work and can't remember what video card it has. If that's the case though I'm gonna have to demand a refund since you changed things with an announcement 2 days after I paid for a year subscription.
Edwardius	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:47:00 - [340] So ..... I use my laptop to play eve, its holds an Intel G965-chipset. Can anyone tell me what that means? Will I be able to pley till March, till the winter, or longer? Ed

Lorelei Lee	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:47:00 - [341] Short: Please provide an option to turn textures off. Completely. End of request. Long: If you're messing with textures, can you please add this option, or as close to it as you can do without a major coding effort? I would love to have solid colors for each polygon, no lighting, no shading. If it makes a difference in FPS, I will even settle for wireframe, Elite-style. I have been asking for this since before there was a Premium client. I have a GeForce 8600M GT driving a 1920x1280 monitor. This is a laptop, one year old. Technically it can support the fancy ShaderModel, but whenever I zoom in to my ship being shot at by a roomful of NPCs, my FPS drops below 5 (FIVE) -- with the Classic client and no other load on the machine. The 5 FPS includes the GUI, which means I have to fight while zoomed out far enough that I can't see what's going on.
The Candidate	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:48:00 - [342] Edited by: The Candidate on 14/01/2009 05:51:23 Originally by: rValdez5987 To make better use of your analogy, I'm saying that I don't want people driving around old beaten up cars that cant follow the regulations set forth. I don't have a problem with people using old pcs so long as they understand that to continue to enjoy EVE they are going to have to upgrade. Well, if you're going to say that... then might i point out that the regulatory laws SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDE old cars from certain requirements that were added on after the car's production year. best example i can think of right now is the seatbelt law. If you're not wearing a seatbelt, and a cop pulls you over, you get ticketed... unless your car was built before 1960s or 70s(forgot exact date). EDIT: grammar, typo
Sean Roach	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:49:00 - [343] Is your truck up to the newest California Emissions standards? If not, take public transportation or walk. EVE is a game. If it becomes something that a percentage of the playerbase have to shell out cash to continue enjoying, and that is the only reason to do so, they are likely to quit playing instead. As for laptops being only for business... Computers are only for business, and big business at that. Just ask a string of ex IBM execs. I bought this laptop with the intention of playing EQII on it. I just can't justify spending more to replace it right now, and I don't want to anchor myself to a desk again. I use this thing everywhere. When my internet connection gets cranky, I log on from the library. When I'm in town, and don't want to drive 30 minutes home just to drive 30 minutes back for something else in town, I have my trusty, primary computer, laptop there. In the end, yes, it's CCP's game, and they can exclude who they choose, but those here are basically saying they should reconsider that second move, as a lot of people are going to be inconvenienced more than they will tolerate. Some because they will no longer be able to use secondary machines for quick updates, or second accounts. Some because they will no longer be able to run multiple accounts on one machine. Some because the one computer they can afford, a major cash outlay, won't be able to handle the proposed changes for a monthly fee game, a periodic minor cash outlay. Note, proposed changes, not the ones they said they will do, the ones they say they might do. I skipped over a lot of posts in the middle, but it looks like the consensus is 1.0 can go, but please keep 2.0 around a bit longer. Am I worried? Indirectly. My rig will handle 3.0, but it puts me that much closer to the edge.
The Candidate	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:51:00 - [344] Originally by: Edwardius So ..... I use my laptop to play eve, its holds an Intel G965-chipset. Can anyone tell me what that means? Will I be able to pley till March, till the winter, or longer? Ed You're all set for PS 3.0 :) no worries! tho... intel integrated graphics is almost always inferior to dedicated graphics cards... if you have a desktop, try getting a cheapo graphics card :P
TripodAl	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:51:00 - [345] I refuse to see CCP bullied into making an inferior graphics client, an inferior game. CCP needs to move forward no matter how badly you want to go backward. CCP cannot expect anyone to pay for a graphically inferior game. People like bright shiney fluffy things. If you want wireframes and map less graphics play Asteroids and Wolfenstein 3d. Seriously, its a NETbook. Not a GAMEbook. Ccp cannot help you wasted your money on hardware not intended for gaming or graphics accleration of anytype. The only reason your NETbook has this graphics accleration in the first place is to support flash and activex on websites. You sir, bought the bare mininum hardware for surfing a webpage. In all honesty, it is flipping amazing that eve runs perfectly fine on my PII500 with a Geforce Mx200. Im willing to bet ISK it will even loadup and operate on a Pentium Pro. The sad thing is the scam they used to sell you this wonderful netbook is the same scam you see in Jita all day long. Caldari Navy Raven 260mil isk! Ultimately CCP will pickup more gamers than they will lose simply from a major graphics upgrade. These days to many people the "engine" running a game is more important than the game itself. And to repeat the point already covered several times. You can upgrade any pc less than 5 years old to play new premium! For less than 100bucks! Originally by: Xennith posting from my acer aspire one, while lying in bed and just before i quickly change a skill over. am i going to be able to skillchange with my netbook once you do this, or are you considering allowing us to change skills via api if not?
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:56:00 - [346] Originally by: Edwardius So ..... I use my laptop to play eve, its holds an Intel G965-chipset. Can anyone tell me what that means? Will I be able to pley till March, till the winter, or longer? Ed I believe that has Shader 3.0 so I think your okay, but not 100% sure. You should be fine for the March change in any event. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:58:00 - [347] Edited by: Kessiaan on 14/01/2009 06:04:18 Also, the premium client uses your GPU. The classic client, for the most part, is a software renderer. Therefore it stands to reason that if the upgrade from Classic to Premium Lite is done intelligently the low-end systems that even Classic runs like a dog on will see some performance improvement. Personally, if I were CCP, it wouldn't call it premium-anything, I would have just said "We're dropping SM1 support from the classic client and implementing some performance improvements from the Premium Client" and left it at that. As for all the people saying "You can upgrade or build a new PC that can run the current premium client cheap!" - you're absolutely correct that it can be done, but if you tell someone to open their PC you're already beyond the skill level of the majority of PC users. Telling someone to build a new box from scratch just isn't going to happen, and Dell and HP aren't going to sell them a budget system that will run Eve well - they don't make $$$ doing that. They'll sell you a budget system that can sort of run Vista and Office, and they'll sell you a $3000 gaming system that you can build yourself for half that that can run everything under the sun at the moment, but you're not going to find much inbetween.
The Candidate	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:58:00 - [348] Originally by: TripodAl I refuse to see CCP bullied into making an inferior graphics client, an inferior game. CCP needs to move forward no matter how badly you want to go backward. CCP cannot expect anyone to pay for a graphically inferior game. People like bright shiney fluffy things. If you want wireframes and map less graphics play Asteroids and Wolfenstein 3d. Seriously, its a NETbook. Not a GAMEbook. Ccp cannot help you wasted your money on hardware not intended for gaming or graphics accleration of anytype. The only reason your NETbook has this graphics accleration in the first place is to support flash and activex on websites. You sir, bought the bare mininum hardware for surfing a webpage. In all honesty, it is flipping amazing that eve runs perfectly fine on my PII500 with a Geforce Mx200. Im willing to bet ISK it will even loadup and operate on a Pentium Pro. The sad thing is the scam they used to sell you this wonderful netbook is the same scam you see in Jita all day long. Caldari Navy Raven 260mil isk! Right... that exactly why every netbook advertisement says "MADE FOR GAMING!!!!!!111111" most people buy netbooks for simple tasks, not necessarily gaming... but EVE, being one of the more enjoyable games still run-able on netbook hardware, it is understandable that they would like to keep that function. Yes, the buyers were aware of their limitations, but no, it doesn't mean they can't try to play a game you play with your gaming hardware. And seriously? Originally by: TripodAl I refuse to see CCP bullied into making an inferior graphics client, an inferior game. CCP needs to move forward no matter how badly you want to go backward. Would you prefer Crysis style graphics, where no one can run? Hey, CCP shouldn't be bullied into making an inferior graphics client, says you... Tho, it has occurred to me that this was probably a troll anyways...
TripodAl	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:02:00 - [349] Originally by: Threv Echandari Originally by: Digital Anarchist If you want to force us to use new hardware, at least give us an option to run wireframe graphics. No need to fork and maintain 2 codebases, just the option to strip more graphics stuff if we want to. THIS ^^ I have a an HP 1100 tablet that I use when I'm traveling and at the office to change skills and chat and maybe mine or haul with for my second account. The Classic client is the only thing that runs on the GeForce GO integrated video. I think you are going to have a lot of laptop users who are stuck with ****ty Intel Video that can barely run the classic client even on newer hardware. So yeah, while this change won't affect my main rig, many road warriors out there who can't upgrade are going to get screwed. So Yes wireframe mode please we dont need no fancy graphics... Hey! If you can afford a $2000 tablet pc, you can afford a $1300 acer with a geforce 9800 and a 17" lcd.
TripodAl	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:03:00 - [350] America *k yea! Coming out to save the day! America k yea. I love America, you should try living here, and you would too. Originally by:* Hikaru Kai It's not CCP's fault the economy is in the tank. Indirectly Americans are to blame for their "woes" since they stupidly voted in a president that ruined not just the economy but pretty much ever aspect of your country. CCP is trying to move on, move ahead in the development of their game. If people *** and moan about upgrading 6-10 year old hardware, on the basis they cannot afford sub $100 component(s), then they shouldn't be playing the game in the first place. This ing American attitude of wanting everything for nothing, without any work, always a "me me me" attitude, sickens me. Get over yourselves. America is not the ing centre of the universe, no matter how many attempts at installing Freedom in other countries you fail at. Stop *ing. Stop it. Originally by:** Mikalya ... So the question remains: Does CCP want to be even a more niche game requiring hardware components that a large number of their potential clients cannot meet, or will they understand that the economy is in the tank and people aren't going to upgrade equipment just to play a game? ...

TripodAl	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:05:00 - [351] We instilled freedom in America pretty damn well. I suppose thats the only country that really needs to be free in my opinion. Originally by: Hikaru Kai It's not CCP's fault the economy is in the tank. Indirectly Americans are to blame for their "woes" since they stupidly voted in a president that ruined not just the economy but pretty much ever aspect of your country. CCP is trying to move on, move ahead in the development of their game. If people *** and moan about upgrading 6-10 year old hardware, on the basis they cannot afford sub $100 component(s), then they shouldn't be playing the game in the first place. This ing American attitude of wanting everything for nothing, without any work, always a "me me me" attitude, sickens me. Get over yourselves. America is not the ing centre of the universe, no matter how many attempts at installing Freedom in other countries you fail at. Stop *ing. Stop it. Originally by:** Mikalya ... So the question remains: Does CCP want to be even a more niche game requiring hardware components that a large number of their potential clients cannot meet, or will they understand that the economy is in the tank and people aren't going to upgrade equipment just to play a game? ...
Nyterra	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:05:00 - [352] While I think its neat that my netbook (Atom N270 and GMA 945 pushing a 1024 x 600 LCD; an Dell Inspiron Mini 9 for those that care) can run the classic client, and want to continue to be able to do skill changes using it even if most everything is too big to dispay on the screen properly, I understand the need to drop low end support. I agree with dropping < SM2, but I think SM2 support should be maintained for at least all of 2009, if not most of 2010. Things change fast in the computer hardware world, so something might happen to make this discussion moot, but at the same time I wouldn't hold my breath on it, and I believe that SM2 systems will still be in the a large chunk of the player base a year from now.
Alxea	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:08:00 - [353] Seriously, even Geforce 6's... are midevil old tech. I can't imagine using some hardware that old thats not even close to standard onboard video anymore. You can buy ram for $20 2Gig's of ram, a cpu for $30 or $50 for a dual core and a mobo with onboard video that will laugh at a Geforce 5 video card. Standard onboard video is HD 3000/2000 and Geforce 7/8 series graphics. And this game doesn't take much to run. Not even that. Those are about $50 boards. If you can afford to pay for this game with 2 or more accounts its hard to believe you cant spend about $100 to upgrade your desktop that would run laps over your past hardware. Computer parts are so cheap now they are practically giving away parts. Even a ATI 1K is a really old card series those cards on ebay don't cost much of anything anymore. I don't see why people are "B"ing about CCP making the standard min requierments higher when they are trying to run Eve on EOL parts that died off like 7 years ago. Its not CCP's fault, like most game companies you can't play the newest games on stuff that came out 7 years go. GL on something like crysis on your dino parts, the dino will just choke. LOL
Karl Birkensen	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:10:00 - [354] Quatro NVS 140 with Shadermodel 4 support on a laptop. CCP I'm looking forward to seeing the new 'lite' client and I expect that I will use it almost all the time as I currently run the classic client almost exclusively. Thanks for the great game and amazing graphics.
Jeune F.T.S.L.	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:14:00 - [355] It's interesting to note how people are complaining about a five year old game not running on 2 year old hardware. Eve is evolving... and will have to continue to do so to survive. If Eve doesn't evolve we won't have to worry about this discussion in a couple years time. Any 5 year old game that has survived with a decent player base has increased its minimum requirements during that time. Some may say "WoW hasn't." To that I say: "WoW looks like crap because of it and has for some time now. Even the mighty, unbeatable WoW has increased the minimum requirements with recent expansions." CCP is running a business. Whether we like it or not they have to make decisions that will advance Eve as a game and possibly MMO's as a whole. They already have one of (if not THE) most advanced gaming clusters on the planet. With the loss of SM1 they stand to lose a few current subscribers, but that is easily offset by simplified development and reduced overhead. This alone should make for less bugs in updates and more content. SM2 is a tougher pill to swallow. I agree that CCP should poll either via a forum poll or through the client before making that decision. At least let SM3 penetrate the market more. I don't say this because I'm worried about minimum requirements. I say it because I don't want CCP to screw over a large portion of their current and potential player base. Asus P5Q-E E8400 @ 4.2 GHz 8GB DDR2 2x Sapphire 4870 790/1100 (Please fix CrossFire support) 2x VelicoRaptor 150 2x WD7500AAKS
Ron Bacardi SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:18:00 - [356] Edited by: Ron Bacardi on 14/01/2009 06:20:27 1. rvaldez...i love you 2. to ccp...sounds awesome 3. to whiners...play less Eve, get another/better job, use extra $ to buy new computer or graphics card, play more Eve. 4. and to the peeps playing 8 accounts simultaneously, jesus christ, I would expect you to have a gaming rig.
TripodAl	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:19:00 - [357] Originally by: The Candidate[quote=TripodAl I refuse to see CCP bullied into making an inferior graphics client, an inferior game. CCP needs to move forward no matter how badly you want to go backward. Would you prefer Crysis style graphics, where no one can run? Hey, CCP shouldn't be bullied into making an inferior graphics client, says you... Tho, it has occurred to me that this was probably a troll anyways... Seriously, crysis works on current hardware. kthx
Pliauga Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:28:00 - [358] First of, sorry tl;dr. My main gaming rig can pull premium just fine. But I do have a laptop problem. You see I use a laptop to flip skills when away from home (that is most of the time), and fliping skills is all (all eve related) I do with that laptop. So if I can't run eve on it, I won't be able to flip skills. Suggestions: A special version of the client for skill flipping without ANY advanced graphics. Skill queue. And just a final thought: I realise that what CCP do, they do for the improovment of EVE, but alienating even a minor part of the playerbase due to TECHNICAL LIMITATIONS is a big no no. Yours trully Pli.
Jean Dessaut DEATHFUNK Doctrine.	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:39:00 - [359] Originally by: Digital Anarchist If you want to force us to use new hardware, at least give us an option to run wireframe graphics. No need to fork and maintain 2 codebases, just the option to strip more graphics stuff if we want to. Signed. Half the reason for lag in big fleet battles is the client struggling to keep up with all the models floating around. We need to be able to strip down to the bare minimum for critical PvP.
TripodAl	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:42:00 - [360] Originally by: Mikalya Originally by: rValdez5987 oh christ from reading this thread, I can already see the fail in it. This will be the last time I post in here because Im seriously getting **ed off. Its not CCP's fault that your stupid * bought a laptop rather then a desktop which is CHEAPER and can be upgraded. Its not CCP's fault that your married, have children, and your wife has you wrapped around her finger. TBH if thats how your living, quit eve, its not something you can realistically afford. It's not CCP's fault that money is tight for you. If its really that tight that you cant upgrade your pc at any given time, please stop gaming. Its a hobby that you frankly cannot afford. Im sorry to be rude like this, But Im sick and tired of people *****ing and trying to stop progress of everything because they are too lazy, too stupid, or lack the control over their own life to take charge, do whats gotta be done, and get a working and up to date box to game on. Wow, you seriously should take some anger management classes The laptop is 1.5 years old, a "gift" from my position at work. It wasn't cheap, it wasn't junk. It is plenty powerful enough to run about anything I need/use it for. But it, like almost all laptops more than a year old, DOES NOT support shader 3. You would be fascinated how many desktops don't either So the question remains: Does CCP want to be even a more niche game requiring hardware components that a large number of their potential clients cannot meet, or will they understand that the economy is in the tank and people aren't going to upgrade equipment just to play a game? Obsidian took the "You need XX specs to play" with NWN 2 about 2 years ago; its sad that NWN1 is STILL outselling NWN2, and has almost 10 times the number of players online at any time. Sad considering its an 8 year old game compared to a 2 year old game.... And yes, prettier graphics is why Obsidian did it. Pretty graphics mean nothing if you can't play and can't afford to replace the equipment to allow you to. 1. Neverwinter Nights 1 was a better game. 2. You got a work laptop for work. Buy a gaming laptop for gaming. These are not the same. When I bought my laptop I did the research to make sure I got the newest possibly graphics technology I could afford. and 4 years later my Laptop still plays EVE beautifully. All for the tidy sum of 1300.

Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:51:00 - [361] Quote: (along with being an awesome game on a single server) Ah, that explains alot. I mean that SINGLE SERVER stuff because last nite in lowsec, normal and equal 64 man blob engaged our 20 man blob and lag was unbearable! So you admit that you run on SINGLE server? I got some old Xeon servers, where can I donate them?
Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:53:00 - [362] The big issue for me is that the Classic client gets 3 hours of battery life on my laptop (Lenovo T61p w/ NVidia Quadro), while premium mode will suck my battery dry in 40 minutes, in fact the current draw for the high end graphics catches the OS by surprise and I don't even get a 'save your work now' prompt, it just dies without getting a chance to suspend to disk. Oh, and when it's running in premium mode I have to be careful because it can easily get too hot, whereupon it'll either a) burn me b) shut down c) spew corrupted graphics over my desktop Anyway, while this is an extreme example, the fact is that laptop sales are holiding up better than desktops, and many laptops are still shipping with grpahics hardware that isn't up to the task of running SM3 graphics engines.
Komen Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:57:00 - [363] I was lucky enough, at the outset of the new Trinity graphics engine, to have a confluence of my old graphics card (SM1) die due to the fan giving out, and having the cash, and knowledge of SM3 requirement, to get an ATI x1950 (only I wish I'd gone Nvidia, hate this card). So i've been on premium since day 1 on Tranq. That said, I think discontinuing SM2 support this year, even in winter, would be a bad idea in terms of number of people who play Eve on older hardware. Wait 'til NEXT winter, in 2010. By then the monoliths will have turned Jupiter into a new sun, so solar will be a better option, the economy will improve, and we'll all be able to afford supercomputers to run our 1000 accounts while speaking to the aliens from Alpha Centauri that we found due to SETI, and who like to trade pirated movies with us.
Draku Rykenen Gallente Exiled. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:58:00 - [364] I fully support the end of classic and the move to premium lite. For those that will no longer be able to play it might hurt, but anyone that can spend money monthly on a computer game CAN find the means to move to an SM 3 card. You can get those cards for extremely cheap these days as the first SM 3 cards are now several generations old. The game cannot pander to the lowest common denominator for ever. It isn't healthy for the game or fair to the subscribers that wish to see EVE progress. Technology marches on.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:03:00 - [365] Personally, even if my machine can run a single account on Premium/normalshadows/whatever at a more than reasonable framerate, I always stuck with the Classic version because, frankly, the ships I prefer to fly (especially the Nighthawk) simply look better in Classic (jet-black in Classic vs the dark-shiny-metal of Premium). But that's a matter of personal preference, and it's nothing that can't be overlooked if I can turn of the shiny part (which I suppose is a SM3 feature). That being said, there's TWO big things to consider. 1. The issue of "not enough end-user customisation". What that means is that we would really, really like a lot (and I mean, A LOT) more options for "look customisation". And that doesn't include just the differences between Classic and Premium, but the ability to shift down graphic detail much lower than currently if we so wish, a thing you consistently denied us access to. For instance, I would very much like to KILL THE DARNED INSANELY BRIGHT BACKGROUND, and fly in a space that's mostly black, just a splash of color here and there and the usual starfield. Another thing I'd really want to do is, for instance, TURN OFF TEXTURES, and simply have the ships represented as shaded, plain-coloured models. Or, for instance, I would really like to be able to simply turn off the display of some very small models altogether and be able to replace them completely with their bracket. In other words, give us a finer control over backgrounds, texture quality, level of detail tresholds, viewing distance or whatnot and so on and so forth, then all is peachy. 2. The issue of "some people play from really crappy machines sometimes because they have to" Sure, I am at home most of the time whenever I'm online a longer time, and I try to set my skill training in such a way that I am home when it's done. But sometimes, you get an IM from a corpmate asking you to lend him some ISK, set some manufacture jobs, sell him something from your reserve stash, talk to somebody wlse who's looking for you ingame or god knows what else. And then, you have to log in from whatever the heck you have available... even if you have your EVE on a pocket USB flashdrive, usually whatever that machine is, it's not a great machine to begin with... either some old office machine, or some public machine that already can run EVE, some older laptop... things like that. So, before you completely absolete SM1 and even SM2 capable video cards... you should take a really good look at how things make it necessary for you to log in occasionally from junk machines. If you plan to make SM3 mandatory, you'd better give us (BEFORE you do that) a non-accelerated "ultralight" client for chat, evemail, inventory and market. Oh, and for skillchanges (or even better, a skill-queue instead). _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Twilight Magister	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:05:00 - [366] i'd be more happy to see EVE running on the new generation netbooks WELL, like the asus eee, or the lenovo s10. rather than get a shiney upgrade.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:07:00 - [367] Also, would it be so hard for you to have a "default enabled but ask for it anyway" machine specs collection routine at each login ? I mean, trivial stuff only : CPU type and speed, RAM size, videocard type and videocard RAM, nothing else. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Kbobiller	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:17:00 - [368] Regarding the hardware people use, Valve has been using the Steam client to collect peoples hardware stats for a looooong time, and since Eve is available through Steam, how about mining their data to see what people have? Note that many of Valves games cater to people on lower-spec hardware and scale nicely for those with high end stuff; but don't go arbitrarily chopping off 5% of your userbase Like many others here I often use a laptop, with Quadro 360M graphics, which is premium capable but used with the classic client to increase battery life and to reduce the chronic heat output; the option to run at lower detail graphics settings is essential for many. A single client would bring benefits, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water Kbob
Selina Lonarin Gallente Zero People Skills Black Scope Project	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:17:00 - [369] As a developer, I can appreciate what CCP is trying to achieve. Fewer codebases and rendering paths makes development easier. As a consumer, this is a pretty dangerous decision for CCP. Removing support for older hardware from software that mandates upgrades is generally not a good way to win over customers - whilst it may bring in 5% new customers (whom I suspect will be a 5% you probably won't want - they'll get over the prettier fancier graphics in a month or two, then leave) - you'll build a stigma of being the MMORPG company that abandons its paying players. I can only partially agree with removing pre SM2 support - whilst there is no new hardware out there that isn't capable of handling pre-SM2, it was once supported, is currently still supported, and currently may represent a player or a player's alt. The removal of SM2 support this year I can't condone - not until we've had at least 3 years (the 'average' depreciation span of a laptop here in .au) pass since the SM3 capable laptop become mainstream. Doing so would cut off the portion of players who play the game on a laptop that met spec, but aren't serious gamers. (Sorry, Serious gamer arguments do not bide well - serious gamers are a minority in the greater population, likewise, graphic cards update arguments don't bide well because not everybody can upgrade). What I want to know is why it's not possible for CCP to use the "premium" codebase and assets to make a client that can degrade down the various shader-models versions safely assuming the card can meet the vertex and fill rates required, and continue to support it in this way? Surely you can produce acceptable visual output using the premium model geometry, the diffuse texture and basic vertex lighting, disable effects and provide that as the entry level support. It is acceptable to deliver a lower (but adequate) level of visual quality to players using older hardware, but it's not acceptable to completely cut them off when they could previously play using their hardware. Maybe you should issue a warning box when the client starts, but you should try very hard to avoid cutting those players out. I also happen to agree strongly with those who believe a rebate is in order should CCP affect a minimum specification change during a long subscription block that renders their current hardware unable to play acceptably. I think this move is premature anyway. The Mac and Linux clients need some serious love. When CCP can release a native EVE client for OSX (sorry, this Cider crap isn't native - 100% non-stop CPU utilisation on both cores just for the login screen says its a poor emulation attempt to me) maybe I'll feel less apprehensive about them dropping support for older systems.
Xiza Larynx XxTiggerxX Corp United Pod Service	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:22:00 - [370] Will we be able to run EVE on netbooks? e.i Asus EEE 1000H. ? A toned down version "lite" for changing skills and doing station stuff, market, chatting etc.. would be nice at least.

Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:24:00 - [371] Think about all those shiny eee pc which run eve thanks to an intel GMA 950! Discontinuing model shader 2 support next winter sounds too early... Disabling those to run eve would need at least some help on the 'vital minimum' : switching skills without the client! Anyway, I ran missions, traded and can do quite many things with my eee pc 1002HA, note that it's not an old model and it has the huge advantage of not burning your lap like so many laptop that integrated powerful graphics! -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:24:00 - [372] Call it a personal problem if you will but i myself play on a gross... old... ATI Mobility Radeon 9600/9700 series which does support Shader Model 2.0, but not 3.0. Because its a laptop i cant exactly just go and change. Other problem is that i'm a college student that doesn't have any money =/ Imo: Keep this "lite" thing. it sounds like a good idea for two reasons: make sure that noone/very few people get **ed on by not getting to play anymore and that when someone expects to undergo a visually stressful engagement they can switch to help reduce any lag issues. I would be really really sad after my 2 short years of eve were cut off because i all the sudden cant run it anymore Originally by:** CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:33:00 - [373] So you're going to FORCE me to look at the crap version of the Prowler? Seriously, no blue spinning thingys in premium is weak. Why does CCP hate minmatar?
Hollier	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:38:00 - [374] I paid for my subscription based on the fact that this game runs on older hardware, i`m sick of being told to upgrade , I don`t care how pretty the graphics are Gameplay is a far more important consideration. I`ve worked in the computer industry for 26 years and do a lot of charity work enabling elderly citizens to have access to computers ,these machines are often older "refurbished" machines but games like EVE have always run well, and yes there are 70+ yr old people playing EVE who would not be happy that one of their hard earned hobbies is about to be taken away. For those who casually say "if you want to play then upgrade" why don`t YOU get out YOUR credit card and pay for everyone before you tell them what to do. Good luck and farewell
Amar'u Deltmartuk	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:43:00 - [375] Edited by: Amar''u Deltmartuk on 14/01/2009 07:45:18 I might be reiterating here, but another issue with > SM2 support on laptops is simply workload and FPS. That is, there is compatibility and then playability, both of which are important (and which people have already somewhat addressed). In any case, I bought a brand-new Toshiba Protege M700 a year ago. It's a tablet, but it has a 2GHz C2D mobile cpu and 4GB of RAM. I needed the best compromise between performance and tablet (needed tablet for work). It plays Classic, just well enough - averaging 25FPS down to slide show in heavy entity environments. This laptop is, again, not even a year old - I PRE-ORDERED the machine, 2 weeks before it was released to market! It cost me about $2000. That was my computing upgrade. The average corporate upgrade cycle is 3 years, so think about it... Putting together a new machine with say, an 8800GT right now would cost me around $500 (assuming others might have to move from say an ATI R300 agp card to pci-e that actually does SM3 well - I just priced it out on newegg). The yearly fee for Eve is $131.40, assuming people are prepaying, but people with cashflow issues could very well be on $15/mo - which makes the annual price $180, with the majority of people in between. So you're basically going to make people drop the equivalent of 3 years worth of subscriptions (see the irony here?) to make their game playable (as in ability to actually play the game the way it was designed, not clipshow mode) again in 6 months? Even though I know that my Intel X3100 supports up to SM4, and the driver can even do T&L now, but you know what? With not even 30FPS out in a roid field, I need every FPS I can get - I might even be willing to bet an entire gtc that moving to SM2 on this platform will make even regular missioning impossible. I understand the necessity to move away from SM1, but even Valve's Source Engine still supports DX8 cards! -throwing my gripe out there...
Des Jardin Ad Astra Vexillum Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:46:00 - [376] The impact of the change in system requirements disproportionally affects laptop owners. While a desktop system can add a new card, many laptops cannot. Therefore, the relative cost to "upgrade" is higher for laptop owners. While I could swing a new graphics card for a desktop system (if I had one), a new laptop is not an option. I guess March 9 will be my last game day ... just when EVEMon has me finishing my Dread training. Des Jardin
keepiru Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:50:00 - [377] Actually, I have a related question for you devs. Does the fact that you won't be needing to maintain 2 versions of the assets mean you'll finally get around to fixing all those minor but visible and annoying bug with the models? I'm speaking of things like the succubus only showing one gun (been this way since 2005 at least), the harbinger showing mount points for 8 guns and having the bottom mount on the 7th off to one side (been this way since 2006) and stuff like that? There's a number of them in the game, and they only intensify the already pervasive feeling that CCP has feature ADD. They look ... well, unprofessional. ... and I really think they should boost T2 plate HP.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:55:00 - [378] Originally by: Glassback Originally by: Andrue If we could just render the inside of a station with environment loading disabled it would be useful. That way people relying on slightly crappy laptops can still chat to friends from their hotel room and change skills. Just turn off station environment under display & Graphics? You misunderstand. I'm guessing that when the SM changes come out low spec machines won't even be able to get to the login screen. The client simply won't run. Same as you can't run the Premium client now without SM3. I'm suggesting that perhaps CCP could modify the client so that if there wasn't enough Shader support the client would disable the ability to undock and would turn off loading of station environments. That might not involve much development time and would give mobile users a chance to get their Eve fix while away from home. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Mr LaboratoryRat	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:56:00 - [379] no more semi afk playing eve on my laptop i guess after the winter expansion 2009
Arous Drephius Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:56:00 - [380] Dropping SM2 support in a year's time is bad. Plenty of people (me included) would be able to play EVE on their main computer with SM3 cards, but laptops and such that people use to change skills in a hurry would be stuck. If you really want to drop SM2 support, make it possible to change skills without needing an SM3 compatible card.

rampant sanity	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:00:00 - [381] Originally by: Selina Lonarin <cut> 100% non-stop CPU utilisation on both cores just for the login screen says its a poor emulation attempt to me</cut> this happens on windows machines too... it's because it's a python native program. i'd like to see my CPU not be pegged out myself. it's a bit annoying. also support for XP64 would be good; i'm not going to go to vista and really don't want to stay in 32bit just because eve requires it. as for video issues... i ran premium graphics and went back to classic... it wasn't worth the additional tie up for shiny asteroid fields i was destroying with a strip miner. not everyone wants high graphics content. i still play mechwarrior2 for that reason alone.
Ms Freeze Marketing Research New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:01:00 - [382] Currently running in on my laptop which has a X700 ATI card, and on my Acer Aspire 150 netbook that I bought 2 weeks ago to enable me to switch training when I am on the move. Will it still run on an X700? I like the idea of 2 clients, one with lower requirements, but it would be kind of useless if you increase the minimum requirements in the same process imho. -- "You don't appreciate a lot of stuff in school until you get older. Little things like being spanked every day by a middle aged woman: Stuff you pay good money for in later life." - Tony Curtis
Erika Bronz	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:19:00 - [383] I don't understand much of PC and PC language, but after a hard struggle (and some help) I've found out that my PC is an AMD Athlon Pocessor 1.25 GHz, 1 GB RAM. Graphic card is a RADEON 9200 SERIES. For how long will I be able to play Eve? I looked at the link in the blog, but I didn't understand anything of the info there. Thanks in advance if anyone can answer my question.
Maverick 52 Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:24:00 - [384] I understand the need for eve to progress on to newer hardware, however cutting off the part of you player base that likely can not upgrade is cheap in my opinion. I mean, anyone playing on a SM1 card likely isn't doing it by choice. I'm sure they'd love to have the latest and greatest computer hardware but it's just not high enough in their priorities for it to happen. The other part being people using older computers on the go, or possibly when away from home to keep up on skill changes and market transactions. I personally used a friends older computer with a SM1 graphics card to change skills while I didn't have internet in my own home. If eve hadn't run on that I would of been SOL Anyways, I can understand the elimination of a playable client on SM1 but I would like to see a "EVE Lite" to keep those players in eve until they can get their new hardware. The elimination of SM2 support seems way too early for me. I currently use a Radeon 9800 PRO on my desktop and until this announcement I had no plans of upgrading anytime soon. EVE is pretty much the only PC game I play, and any others are even older than EVE so they run fine. Beyond it personally affecting me, I believe your statistics are crap and that much more of your market has computers running a SM2 card.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:28:00 - [385] Originally by: Xailia Originally by: D'ceet Right now you can run the Premium Client on any GMA9xx computer (or Mirage 3, S3 Chrome, x200) with premium content disabled. No you can't. The Premium client requires SM3 and the GMA9xx derivates don't have it. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:30:00 - [386] Originally by: Miney Prospector It's about time. I wouldn't worry about the people saying they are going to quit since their laptop from 1997 isn't going to be able to play the game anymore. I bought my laptop in November 2007. It's barely two years old. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Pivalak Ultriach Criesther Evirementari	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:31:00 - [387] Originally by: Erika Bronz I don't understand much of PC and PC language, but after a hard struggle (and some help) I've found out that my PC is an AMD Athlon Pocessor 1.25 GHz, 1 GB RAM. Graphic card is a RADEON 9200 SERIES. An ATI Radeon 9200 Series card provides DirectX 8.1 features if I'm not wrong. That means just ShaderModel 1.1 is supported, so you better upgrade your graphics card before March 10th or you won't be able to play Eve any more...
Vaerah Vain	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:43:00 - [388] Quote: 1. Please stop supporting SM2 by the end of 2009. Geforce 6-7 series are already archaic by today's standards and they can support SM3. You can get an SM3 compatible card for 20-40 bucks, or find people giving them away for practically nothing. The biggest problem its going to cause is for people who want to log in and play or change skills from their laptops that have **ty Intel chipsets. Unfortunately, there's probably a ton of those. Players will just have to blame Intel, and then blame themselves for trying to game on an Intel graphics chipset If your PC cant support Premium Lite, then its 10+ years old, and you have better things to spend your money on (like a new PC) than eve. You know, i dont understand all the fuss. Id say most of the gamers (from avrage and above) upgrade PC at least once in 2-3 years, Enthusiasts upgrade PC every 6 months, so why all the fuss about going on SM3 ? "Most of the gamers" are viced 12 olds with a generous daddy regularly shelling hundreds. EVE got an elder playerbase, plus unlike the appropriate games for "most of the gamers", EVE "strongly suggests" to have / pay for multiple characters. The elder playerbase have 1 updated computer but can't really self support their little personal data center. The mining / indy / lab alts have to do such menial tasks that even a CGA rendering would do. The problem is that suddenly your previous "main computers" / laptops which perfectly ran EVE alts now won't. Cannot upgrade AGP machines here, the pieces simply don't exist any more. Can't change motherboard to support a PCI card without changing the power supply and the cabinet. In any case the hard disk is IDE. Everything would need to be changed or adapters of some kind to be found. Same for laptop. The laptop buyers could not choose what video card to use, an huge number of HP and other famous brands laptops come with Intel. I just GPU-Z checked and this laptop I am writing this post with (and running 1 alt) cannot run the new game. Nor can my other PC. Unlike "most of the gamers" I have a job, a life, expenses and a TERRIBLE economy time to deal with. Can't maintain 3 shiny DX10 compatible computers without selling car or something. Quote: if you want to use a laptop for something it's not actually designed for i.e gaming then im afraid you have to pay quite a decent amount of money for an actual GAMING laptop as apposed to a normal laptop which are designed for business users. People don't buy laptops to buy EVE. Why buy an expensive (and other downsided) laptop for EVE? The opposite happens: the day they feel the need to pay 1 more subscription for 1 more alt, they are strongly pushed into it because they realize they already got a laptop to use for it. Quote: I fully support the end of classic and the move to premium lite. For those that will no longer be able to play it might hurt, but anyone that can spend money monthly on a computer game CAN find the means to move to an SM 3 card. You can get those cards for extremely cheap these days as the first SM 3 cards are now several generations old. The game cannot pander to the lowest common denominator for ever. It isn't healthy for the game or fair to the subscribers that wish to see EVE progress. Technology marches on**. Economy does not. The FIRST thing dropped in these times is the less vital activities and entertrainment is the first to go. Let technology march, EVE got 11M subscribers anyway and none cares for "5%" to be forced to quit, isn't it? Oh wait... that's another game.
Deira Lenia The Chaotic Order Void.	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:47:00 - [389] Step 2: In the Winter Expansion 2009 we are considering discontinuing support for ShaderModel 2 and make the minimum specification ShaderModel 3(GeForce 6 class cards or ATi x1300 or compatible) YaaY, lets make everyone spend 300$ in hardware to play our game! Your starting to sound like EA. /quit.
Huan CK Gallente GK inc. R.U.R.	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:51:00 - [390] I don't know what people get upset about. Guys, eve still has quite low requirements if you compare them to other games, and how much hardware they eat. You gotta move on with new technology, and make use of it. I can't see why a company would hold back on 95% of their costumers just to satisfy the other 5%. If you were in charge of a company making that decission, you'd just say "good bye 5%" :) Good move CCP. To those who play on 10 year old pc's: Get Pacman :)

Pace eGuerra Gallente Australia and New Zealand Eve Corp FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:56:00 - [391] Call me nuts but... one thing that I've always wanted from EVE is a "Dark Mode" which basically turns off all 3D rendering stuff and leaves only the instruments, buttons, overview and other windows; ie. all 3D content is replaced with a black screen. You can get the effect now by opening and flattening the map and then sliding the map graphics out of view. Voila, EVE on a black screen; no 3D graphics. One can trade, fly and even PVP in this mode as long as one is familiar with flying on instrumentation only which, frankly, is what we mostly do, right? If you do drop SM2 support at the end of the year, heck even if you don't, I think we'd all appreciate a "Dark Mode". I could run EVE on my Dell Mini 9 then...
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:09:00 - [392] Edited by: Carniflex on 14/01/2009 09:13:29 Loss of shader model ver 1 would be not-too-bad. However loss of shader model 2 might yank the carpet out under many lower power laptop users. As recent as few year old laptops can't run shader model 3 (like ati x700 for example, that was relatively popular as 'cheap' separate gfx card back then). Overall I think that we would live. Perhaps indeed patch some hardware survey tool into EVE client and then ask on startup if player is willing to send data to CCP for hardware survey. That way it would be easier for you guys to do properly informed decision. Getting rid of 2 separate clients is overall good idea. Edit: An idea - perhaps you would be able to put out rather castrated option 'EVE ultralite' that would run on netbooks (ie rather low resolution, etc), something as simple as tick in some box in esc screen. It would be quite acceptable for that version to be restricted in optional game content aspect (ie not able to run walking in stations, etc).
Random Incarnate Australia and New Zealand Eve Corp FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:09:00 - [393] Edited by: Random Incarnate on 14/01/2009 09:09:39 Originally by: Pivalak Originally by: Erika Bronz I don't understand much of PC and PC language, but after a hard struggle (and some help) I've found out that my PC is an AMD Athlon Pocessor 1.25 GHz, 1 GB RAM. Graphic card is a RADEON 9200 SERIES. An ATI Radeon 9200 Series card provides DirectX 8.1 features if I'm not wrong. That means just ShaderModel 1.1 is supported, so you better upgrade your graphics card before March 10th or you won't be able to play Eve any more... Confirming this, just checked ATI's website.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:10:00 - [394] Originally by: Ms Freeze Currently running in on my laptop which has a X700 ATI card, and on my Acer Aspire 150 netbook that I bought 2 weeks ago to enable me to switch training when I am on the move. Will it still run on an X700? I like the idea of 2 clients, one with lower requirements, but it would be kind of useless if you increase the minimum requirements in the same process imho. X700 supports Shader 2.0, so you could play after March but not after December based on their current timeline estimates.
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:10:00 - [395] This might get drowned in all the other responses... CCP will probably announce an EVE mobile phone client ( or something to that effect) before they discontinue SM2. For some years now it has been CCPs intention to allow for the reading of mails, changing skills etc. using mobile phones for instance. I`ve played the game since it started and CCP has generally had a pretty good idea of where they want to go. Big seemingly negative changes has usually been compensated through other additions. Because of this, i truly believe that CCP will discontinue SM2 when nearly all primary computers can handle it and secondary computers used for chatting, mails and skill changing are no longer required. I might not always like what CCP does, but i have to admit that what they do generally seem to fit with a long term plan. I wouldn`t worry to much.
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:11:00 - [396] It might be becuase english isn't my native language, but I don't understand this bit: Quote: 1. We can use the same assets as Premium. Admittedly people will most likely choose to run with textures that have lower resolution as well, but these will simply be downsampled (lower resolution mipmaps) from the existing Premium textures. Some textures will also be skipped entirely like, for instance, normal maps. This means less content for us to maintain as we get rid of all the classic content. Are you going to: A/ create lower-res textures that will sit on the hard drive, or.. B/ Make the client take existing high-res textures, use computer ressources to degrade them, then diplay them? That's what Age of Conan did, with the predictable result of making the cilent run worse with lower settings?
Internet Knight Amok.	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:15:00 - [397] FWIW, I would very much prefer you (CCP) to have at least 6 months of direct input from customers regarding the hardware they use. The best option for this is an optional "anonymously send my hardware information to CCP" feature. I bought my computer at the beginning of 2005 expecting it to last until the end of 2010. My Radeon X800XL only supports SM2, I'm not going to upgrade it any time soon. If you lose support for my hardware, you will lose my subscription (again). You happily regained my subscription by fixing most of the lag and a number of other specific bugs. Do you want to lose it again so soon?
n'kki Amarr Hedion University	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:29:00 - [398] (having not read 9 other pages of replies) i'm assuming the winter jump to SM3 is so "walking in stations" is possible with premium lite - ultimately, they've gotta move with the times to be providing the graphics needed to make WiS even halfway possible, but especially with all the fancy cambridge lighting stuff they have planned for it... personally looking forward to it all, but then with a GeForce 9800 GTX, i would be at least CCP have given you nearly a full year's notice of what they would like to do - its not set in stone, and if it does happen you at least cant say you've not had warning (unlike the ghost training thing!)
Hawk TT Caldari Bulgarian Experienced Crackers Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:29:00 - [399] Edited by: Hawk TT on 14/01/2009 09:30:13 Come on - ATI 3450 AGP video card w/ 256MB RAM(Shader Model 4.1) costs 40-45 USD and there are even newer models to be released soon! If you have a computer with only PCI slots, why don't you just send it to the museum? For 150 USD you could buy second hand machine capable of running SM 2.0 game and for 300 USD you could buy an ENTIRE NEW machine capable of running SM 4.0. And just because 2-3% of the player base could not / do not want to afford some upgrades (though playing with multiple accounts! on multiple machines), it doesn't mean that the others have to OBEY THEIR ULTRA-MINORITY-DICTATORSHIP! P.S. If you want to play EVE on your mobile phone or on the ATM 'round the corner - sorry, it is not gonna happen P.P.S. Can I have your stuff when you leave? ___________________________________ Science & Diplomacy Manager @ BECKS The OSS
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:49:00 - [400] Why not make a client that could be run on an Amiga? Also, there is still the unknown total feature-set of Cosmos. Bringing the lower end, but similar, client up closer to the current main production client makes sense. But it also wouldn't be to difficult to create a simpler client using the existing assets that is scalable even more than the old client (run it on a phone!) but still has the capability to look as good. Even cooler would be to turn the EVE client into a modular OS-like interface to the game. Then players could help develop, i.e. graphic representations, that would run on their choice of hardware. Sandbox game? No, sandbox everything! Ok, got a bit carried away... All that said however, even backwards compatibility fanatics like Valve are leaving SM1.1 behind. Their 2007 releases supported it, however L4D has SM2 as the minimum, and likely Ep3 will be the same. Keep SM2 most definitely though. Integrated Graphics Chipsets with SM3 support have existed for almost 3 years, but many laptops are still being sold with SM2 chipsets, and SM2 mobos only phased out last year. Also it would be nifty to run EVE on my EeePC. "The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."

Aleyra Mel	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:52:00 - [401] Edited by: Aleyra Mel on 14/01/2009 09:55:31 You seem relly happy Hawk TT telling people to just go buy new PC, while you are ok with your uber duper machine. Point is that some people have other priorities in life and EVE is not one of the top. I for example only support SH2. No i dont think im gonna buy a new PC for just EVE. And no i wont give 300USD to buy a second hand almost crap PC jsut to be able to play a game. I am just playing EVE to pass my time, i dont care buying a new PC for playing a game, no im not that kind of desperate. Most likely i will go play WOW or somethign else that my computer can play pretty well. When i will decide to buy a PC i will buy something after i do a market research and im sure that this will worth its money. Not rush in to buy just something that will support SH3 just to play EVE. By the way CCPs numbers are only estimates-marketing numbers. Do you really think only 3-4% of playerbase dont have SH3? Do you really think that people in your alliance all have SH3? What if after next year your alliance goes down by 1/4 or 2/4? and you lose a couple fo friends? Just because CCP dramatically changes system requirements of its game for marketing purposes? Seems like next expansion will be the last for me, well i hope it will worth it, i'll enjoy EVE as long as i can play it, but no CCP you will not have me with you next year. And im sure you gonna lose many subscribers due to this. And no you cant have my stuff cause i dont freaking know you. My stuff will go to my friends. But CCP needs to remember something. Most people with lower ends systems are the old players that had a computer back then when EVE got first released. Its the few people that played EVE back then when EVE was almost unknown to the gaming industry. Its the people that gave their money and made EVE what is today. Those are the people that CCP screws right now. The people that without them EVE would have bankrupt years ago...
Eireen Harvenheit Amarr Kingmakers	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:55:00 - [402] Higher requirements = more eye candy. Even low end cards with SM 3+ will run Eve smoothly and these cost only few euros (30-40?) (just skip 2 visits in pub and you have your new "eve compatible" vga, it's not problem really). More eye-candy also means possibly more players so i personally think it's not move in wrong direction.
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:04:00 - [403] I'd like to add that: If you have an old mobo with PCI/AGP... SM3/4 cards are still being made for these interfaces! PCI SM3 cards are $50ish AGP SM3 cards are $40ish Those who are lucky to have PCIe but outdated graphics (maybe you have been using integrated) PCIe SM3 cards are $20ish "The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
Meiyang Lee Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:06:00 - [404] Originally by: Eireen Harvenheit Higher requirements = more eye candy. Even low end cards with SM 3+ will run Eve smoothly and these cost only few euros (30-40?) (just skip 2 visits in pub and you have your new "eve compatible" vga, it's not problem really). More eye-candy also means possibly more players so i personally think it's not move in wrong direction. While that is true, the main problem I can see is for those players who travel a lot and use a netbook to change skills, these devices generally won't have much in terms of graphics capability and probably won't all have SM2.0 capable video chipsets.
Lai Dok	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:07:00 - [405] Edited by: Lai Dok on 14/01/2009 10:08:40 World economy situation forces me to hold any and all hardware upgrades untill further noticed. Didint you fellows in CCP just use similar reason to remove some aspects of game? So CCP please keep SM2 in. Or at least do a real user survey what people are really useing to play this game. I sure would be interested to see stats.
medecau Gallente Super Bock Preta	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:08:00 - [406] i bought a macbook just half a year ago and am not considering spending money on a new one any time soon. love eve, play for 3.5y, wouldnt like to be left out of eve. please.
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:14:00 - [407] It's possible to pick up really cheap second hand video cards that support SM2 and 3. 66xx, 73xx, 76xx, 16xx Series video cards come to mind and these are all SM3. I understand not everyone has the money or the inclination to buy a new card just to play a game on their PC but I do understand why CCP have to move forward from four years old coding to somewhat newer architecture. The other thing that is possible is people buying hardware for ISK. I don't know whether CCP would allow that as it would be outside of the direct sales channels and wouldn't be secure but that is one thing I might be willing to look into. Convert price into ISK will make it a win, win situation for all.
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:15:00 - [408] Originally by: medecau i bought a macbook just half a year ago and am not considering spending money on a new one any time soon. love eve, play for 3.5y, wouldnt like to be left out of eve. please. LOL, should have thought then before you jumped on the iSmug bandwagon. No sympathy for Apple u$ers. Enjoy begging $teve Job$ for that Copy & Paste function.
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:16:00 - [409] Edited by: Xailia on 14/01/2009 10:16:59 Originally by: Meiyang Lee While that is true, the main problem I can see is for those players who travel a lot and use a netbook to change skills, these devices generally won't have much in terms of graphics capability and probably won't all have SM2.0 capable video chipsets. Even the original 'netbook' (EeePC 700) has an SM2 chipset. Most use GMA9xx chipsets.
Shade Millith International House of PWNCakes B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:17:00 - [410] (Hasn't read most of the thread) I would also like to know why a "no-graphics" option hasn't been made, for large fleets?

Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:19:00 - [411] Even better than a no-graphics option would be an Elite-mode option.
Confuzer Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:21:00 - [412] I run 4 clients at once now, while sometimes playing WoW too blush. My concern is this won't be possible anymore. But I understand: you will only have to maintain on set of meshes instead of doing changes on both, which is ALOT of work.
Vaerah Vain	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:29:00 - [413] Quote: I don't know what people get upset about. Guys, eve still has quite low requirements if you compare them to other games, and how much hardware they eat. You gotta move on with new technology, and make use of it. The EVE player is not necessarily the avid and young "I E-MULE download the latest DX10 cracked game to see the shiny candy, I'll check another out tomorrow". Quite the opposite, EVE is a niche game and played by people after an harsh playstyle and "older times MMO" feeling (another good reason not to alienate the niche: niche products are not able to lose a sizable percentage of player base without repercussions). Older times MMO for older players, players who have something else to think about besides keeping multiple rigs up to the latest standard. Quote: I can't see why a company would hold back on 95% of their costumers just to satisfy the other 5%. If you were in charge of a company making that decission, you'd just say "good bye 5%" :) Good move CCP. To those who play on 10 year old pc's: Get Pacman :) The 5% are players subscribed since years and providing CCP for reliable income on multiple accounts and unlikely to quit anytime soon. Can't insure that the remaining 95% have the same attributes. Actually, the newer the player the higher the risk he's just bored of his current "theme park" newer generation pointless MMO and giving EVE a look, on a trial or a young account. He won't have multiple accounts as well. So what, once the multi-account reliable income old player had to quit and the new player decided EVE is not what he really liked? I find it'd be more acceptable to make a game version that just won't do anything when the pre-requisites are not present than one that downright refuses to start. IE to mine, change skills, lab search etc. I can't care the less if I get white untextured graphics. I DO care instead if I can't play my pilot because I have to use the same computer for my miner, to dig a top notch super shader graphics asteroid for hours.
Kuranta Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:30:00 - [414] I'm running EVE on an old machine with a Nvidia TI4400, SM 1.3. Getting a SM 2.0 capable card wouldn't be much of a problem I gues, but please do not remove SM 2.0. Or push the removal to end of 2010.
Elune Ferret Gallente Valley Forge Wrath.	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:32:00 - [415] So I voice my opinions again: I run Eve classic everywhere as Premium is not able to run on anything crossing my hands yet, well I've seen a few laptops, but they were mostly top of the line and not anywhere near something I could seize more permantly. I've been looking to upgrade my Private gaming rig for a while now, this isn't due to the fact that it's unable to support premium, but rather the fact that I'm getting older and my 19" screen is too small to support the 11680x1024 resolution in amanner where I can sit back and watch. I now need to actually sit close to tht screen focussing on the details. And yes I know I could do with lower resolutions, but when I'm outside the stations I do like to se all that pretty grafics in that little tiny square of free space I have. 90% of my screen is takken up by various information windows in a relative casual overwiev state, when actually manaing my info, that little square is blocked up with most of the other overwiev stuff. So upgrading my "gaming rig" is rather closely as I won't accept nothing but a Slaptop (15-20 kgs) with something having minimum 21" screen and resolution of my 1680X1024 (I NEED THAT). I do multies yes, and that runs on various easy to get by systems (mostly T43 Thinkpads) but there I tend to have everything on a run idle state. Lessening the need for the 1680x1024 resolution, seems 1024x800 is just fine as all my info is gathering on a diffrent screen. I forgot to mention that My Dell Inspiron 8600 (Gaming rig) has a FX5200 card or something like it, so SM2 should be runable on it. Now as I've gotten a bit more room, I've been considering getting a desktop too, figure I can fit it in somewhere and well the pricetags are a 10th of the moveable, so what if I can't go to LAN parties or come to fanfest unless someone provides machinery on site? I can live with that I guess, I've heard there something called sunligth??? When my old laptop is too old to maintain it's functions of course I'll need to replace it which will currently cost me let's see, 35.000 DKR converted to british pund? be 3.500 ú or something in the area of 7.000 $, assuming I can negotiate a discount, less then 3.000ú is ridicoulas, Dell won't do it.. That's a bit of savings so as usual I'll need to plan those cycles ahead. Finance crises and personnal stuff, drained the cuffers untimely, which is why I'm considering a cheap Desktop now (affortable, and a need well atleast 3 runnable machines to be replaced these days) I'd love to see as proposed a few times a feature that collects my Rig configurations each time I log in, every time. Hell put it in the EULA. Take my stats, do some calculations, compare to the user base. Optimaize the cliet for the user base. I wonder why this isn't something that's there already, all the info is available, only the user resists to share the info, which will help CCP to make plans and strategies to better utulize information like this. Well sure not everybody playing EVE, plays EVE exclusively. Neither do I but I've learned over the years that CCP actually isn't ONLY in this for the money, but they actually mean it when they say they want to make the ame better, and that it's not the profit that drives them, and this is the ONLY reason I offer any and all information they want or don't know they want. Course I KNOW they'll find a way for that to benefit me personally. In summary: (somethings I didn't get into depth with) 1. Keep the pretties coming. 2. Kill the lag monster. I mean can't you make it extinct or somethign? 3. Collect the intell (Rig configurations) with client feature, this forum thread is not used by all aspects of us. 4. Keep us in the herd. Make sure we can log in to swicth skills atleast. -> This wireframe client or in station client we've requested ever since I took a subscribtion. Now is a the time to make it. It won't matter to the new players, but we veterans will love it, some swear by it. Make a premium 'n a mapless Still waiting for ingame voice, with voice mods.
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:33:00 - [416] Edited by: ShardowRhino on 14/01/2009 10:35:38 my crusty 6600gt which is about 4 years old now can run the premium client. last time i saw it online for sale it was $30 U.S. and that had to be well over 6months ago. I'm sure if you can afford a connection that allows you to play eve and able to sub then you should be able to start saving up a few bucks to get a cheap card. if your using onboard graphics on a desktop, well i wont even get into how wrong that is... it sucks if you have to upgrade to play a game. I've done it before and it sucked. Then the game just went nowhere and that sucked even more. If EVE is going to compete with newer games it has to get out of the 80s first. even if the graphics right now are okay and aren't really required if you think about it. OF COURSE CCP could have given players more of a heads up then this. something closer to the lines of the winter 09 change. we have most of a year for everyone to consider things and start saving up a buck here and there in anticipation. throwing it out there even if it is lowend graphics, you designed the game to run that so you should have given players a bigger warning then a few months. so fail to ccp on that. fail on ancient hardware support holding eve back.
Bernard Voigt	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:36:00 - [417] First things first: I enjoy the fact that EVE does run on systems that the "FOTM first person shooter" addict would call obsolete. I strongly hope CCP will continue to just do that little more work needed to let people who don't buy a new gaming PC every year continue playing. Secondly: I spend 100Ç to be able to play EVE (buying Win XP to run it on my IMac). Now I read this newsarticle about discontinueing the classic client. Okay, I can understand that CCP tries to minimize cost by concentrating their efforts on "state of the art" PCs, but what will be next in costcutting? Discontinueing the Linux + OS X compatibility? I would really like to play EVE(PREMIUM) on my native OS in the near future... Thirdly: I'd suggest CCP puts some manhours in developing a own client that is pruned down (no undocking and no fancy schmancy 3d gfx) to let all those customers who just log in to change a skill, read/answer EVEmail (I'm NOT talking about being able to do market PVP from the workplace, Sesselpuper!) continue to do so, from every mobile device they choose. Forthly (?): respect to the DEF team, for bringing this into the public in such an early stage. I shurely like to be informed on the way my fav game will be developing in the next year at an early stage of developing! EOT Dizclamer: all Typos in this message are property of Voight NanotecÖ
Anvalor Gallente Germania Inc. D0GMA	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:41:00 - [418] First i thought it is cool that CCP can focus on premium only but then i just realized my laptop can not handle that. This means i have to run 2 clients on my pc after march or i have to close one account of my 2. I guess i just have to wait and test if 2 clients will run good on my pc or not. The problem is i pvp alot and if eve runs sloppy with 2 clients on the same pc i will not use 2 clients. btw, i still have 2 Amiga 500 but one is only working.
pipvac Sacred Templars Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:55:00 - [419] I would love to know the opportunity cost of this 'upgrade'. In other words, what did CCP choose not to do (or consider less of a priority) then being able to offer 'Premium Lite' graphics. Frankly, I can think of a very long list of must have enhancements, which I would prefer development time to be spent on than this.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:58:00 - [420] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 14/01/2009 11:04:28 Originally by: Banni Vinda According to the latest Steam Hardware Survey, the distibution of graphics cards looks something like this: DirectX 8 GPUs and below 14.10% I'd guess that Steam users are amongst the most leading-edge when it comes to keeping their hardware up-to-date, so I'm pretty confident EVE's userbase statistics wouldn't exceed these. [...] I'd be very interested to find out how Zulupark came up with his numbers, since they seem significantly different from the Steam results. /This /Thread I can't believe CCP when they say 5% of SM 1.0 user, it is a lie, not less... Well, it is true that Steam has some old games who don't require updated computers, but it is like EVE Classic. I am not impressed by this dev blog. CCP make only bad moves since the economic crash begin really apparent : - Removal of the Ghost Skill Training (but not Ghost ISK Making, CCP understood very well that Skill Points are more valuable, same if they appears incoherent) - Removal of the 30/90 days GTC. Well, 30 days returns, based on the 60 days, so more expensive anyway. - Pretending that QR is a new add-on - Etc... And after that, they claimed that they are not really concerned by the crash. Of course... This change sound like they want reduce their expenses, by reducing their staff. The deletion of the 2.0 support is a proof, as it is the most wrong estimation I ever see, certainly based of the incoming Windows 7 who will require new hardware. Like Vista who some guys said it will be in all PCs and will make everyone upgrade their computer. We all know the facts. As this move is now in a dev blog, the EVE tradition said that CCP never make a roll back of his decisions. It is more true when it is written by Zulupark. Nerf General Shield Resist by 8.3% instead of 7.1% for Armor despite comments, I still remember this... Well... We will see what will happen for EVE in the future, but I am definitively not optimistic. They can give all excuses they want, same if the deletion of the 1.0 can sound understoodable, the 2.0 is not less than : Stupid. I am more impressed to see that there are so many moro... players who still defend CCP choices in this period of economic instability.

Reiisha Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:01:00 - [421] Edited by: Reiisha on 14/01/2009 11:02:24 Consider, laptops with SM2 cards became the standard around 3 years ago. Laptops with SM2 cards can now be had for around $400-500 or so. It cost you at least $393 to actually play this game over the past 4 years. People with desktops that are complaining are even more guilty of this whining about "having to upgrade". A GeForce 8600 GT is a card that can run Crysis quite smoothly on medium, and can be had for around $50-60 if you look around a bit. Why would anyone want to keep the game back like this? Listen to yourself! -"Please CCP, please continue to develop for computers that are 3 or more years out of date, and in most cases even lost support and warranty from the manufacturer!"- And FYI, SM2 became the standard around 4 years ago, at the latest when Battlefield 2 was released. After Oblivion in 2006, it became the de facto requirement for all games after that. What many people here are saying is to keep EVE below the standards of even a 2005 game, because they can't afford new hardware, even though they've apparently been paying for EVE for at least half that long - Considering GTC's weren't always around in their current state. Can people please get off their high horses and let the 97% of people ( as quoted in the dev blog ) who actually have kept up with their hardware enjoy a properly modern game? If you really have trouble with your hardware like that, why not just go back to playing Elite?
Snyder Aringdon Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:02:00 - [422] One thing to consider is how many of us (including myself) run EVE on a laptop (I know of three others who do), and have no external GPU to simply upgrade. My lappy only supports 4/3 pixelshader graphics. Getting a better graphics card means getting a new lappy/compy. This is where you run into the issue of economics. As you know, the world economy is in the ****er, and saving money has become more important than ever. Buying a new compy isn't all that tough, but doing so when you don't know if you'll have a job in six months? Risky.
Anvalor Gallente Germania Inc. D0GMA	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:03:00 - [423] I think CCP could get more acurate information about how many people have to quit one account or more because of this change if they would make some kind of poll were they just ask how many accounts everyone has to close, if at all. So they would not need to read through all the responses and still guess how many can continue playing eve or not. Just a sugestion.
Markus Relic Relic Shipyards	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:05:00 - [424] Firstly, good work for bringing this to our attention so early, it really does need community discussion. Dropping support for SM1 hardware seems entirely justified to me, but then i'm running SM3 hardware already! I do not like the performance hit i get from running two premium clients on the same machine but i do love the premium content, premium lite seems to give the best of both worlds here and plenty of scope to tweak performance to suit the machine. Dropping the support for older (and especially portable) hardware platforms will be a pain for people who are using these machines to log in to change skills, jobs etc. when away from their main machine, but how many people are using SM1 hardware as their main machine to actually play EVE? It seems to me that the problem that needs solving is the problem of accessing skill training, job management etc. from a low-spec machine, not neccesarily playing EVE on a low-spec machine. Maybe the API can be extended to compensate for this? The long asked for skill queue perhaps? Or an EVE client that can run on all sorts of hardware (smartphones?) that just gives access to character management etc. If the dropping of support for SM2 hardware was put off a little longer than the end of 2009 would that give CCP enough time to find other ways to do the character and job management etc.? But all in all, good plan CCP, i like it
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:08:00 - [425] With regards to the Steam Hardware Survey that people refer to, Valve themselves have admitted that Dx8 support is holding them back (TF2 uses Dx8, L4D uses Dx9). I have no problem with CCP moving to a unified client, and dropping SM1 support. However, I think they'd make an unpopular decision to drop SM2 support later in the year. What I do the rest of the time
Arrs Grazznic Poena Executive Solutions	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:15:00 - [426] I have access to 4 machines to play EVE -- I don't have 4 accounts (only 2), rather I play on one or two of the machines available. Only one of these, my home desktop, is SM 3.0 compatible, though it is only able to run one client at a time. By making SM 3.0 mandatory for EVE I would be unable to play when travelling with work (which I do a lot) or play with more than 1 account at a time. Such a restriction would be the end of EVE for me. Cheers, Arrs
Loka xDD	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:15:00 - [427] I have no doubts about droping SM1 support... but SM2? its gonna be a problem, atleast for me.. I do own a SM3 support computer.. a very good one, but I also play on my notebook, same as my brother. Both of it cant support SM3, it uses GM950 Intel Graphic Cards... and oh well, not planning to buy another notebook for a while =/ The thing is, Im a guy that prefer Performance over Uber Graphics.. I usually sets the configs of all games to lowest possible, and like to play fun games more than beautiful games made to force peoples to buy new expensive hardware =D soo.. I hope CCP dont force me to buy new expensive hardware =X am I feeling nVidia touch here? oh nvm xD
Erdiere Minmatar Erasers inc.	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:18:00 - [428] Originally by: SSgt Sniper Also, premium graphics are fugly. They always were fugly, they will always be fugly. The one computer I have that can play with premium graphics has only had them downloaded for a total of five minutes. Then I dumped it. Classic for life. LOL The crying in this thread is incredible, but I do have to say that the idea of introducing the ability to run Premium Lite with SM2.0 and then removing it after such a short amount of time does sound a bit strange.
Dax T	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:23:00 - [429] I'm sorry but any percentage of SM2 people no matter how small will loose out if u drop support for it, remember they probably only have SM2 cards because they can't afford the others, it will also make a farce of your theory about running on a lo end spec machine. I would class people with SM2 cards as lo end nowadays so how can you justify just dropping these people when they have stuck by CCP from the start? Not good PR in my view.
makanesi Minmatar Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:28:00 - [430] Does this mean premium graphics will finally come to the mac?

Hamlin Brown	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:29:00 - [431] Ok I'm trying to be constructive here, I started playing eve because it ran fine on my old computer which will not run if the classic client is phased out. One of the great things about this game is that it will run on older hardware. I'm really annoyed about this as I took out a second account and now after spending 4 months training the character you have just stopped the target PC from playing the game. I think this announcement would have been fairer if you had released this information in November before the promotion was announced.
Jackie Fisher Hegemony Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:30:00 - [432] Dropping SM1 support is less than 2 months away before it was announced? Perhaps giving more notice of this change would have been nice for those affected. IIRC when Premium client was first released didn't CCP make available a utility so people could check if their PC was compatible. Something similar for SM2/3 would be a helpful gesture.
Das Coperial	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:31:00 - [433] I'm running a Gateway laptop with an Intel 945GM video card. It supports PS 2.0 and DX 9.0. Not even an 'a' or 'c' on those version numbers. I'd insert a cute little sad face in the body of this reply somewhere, but it wouldn't come close to expressing the uber pwnage I feel knowing that my $180USD a year wont be enough for CCP anymore; that I'll have to invest in a whole new laptop in order to play Eve. Can maybe a GM at least buy me dinner first?
Ser Prius	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:31:00 - [434] I have an Alienware Area-51 laptop with a ATI 9600 video card (128 mb memory). I can run Shader Model 2, but if you do away with support for that I'll be closing my two accounts. I understand that I might be able to come back at a later time and pay up the accounts and have everything still there if I buy better hardware, but loss of continutity would likely preclude this. I'm a miner and mission runner, so fleet battles and such don't interest me much. I understand about having two pipelines, blah blah, but you are going to lose a LOT of customers if you increase the hardware requirements.
Osiris 27th	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:33:00 - [435] Edited by: Osiris 27th on 14/01/2009 11:35:41 My problem is that although I have a 6 series Geforce card that should run Premium it doesn't !! I have two machines that will not run anything but classic even though their cards are supposed to be capable of doing so. I can of course upgrade, but that will require new motherboards too.
Buga Buga Hecate Inferno	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:38:00 - [436] I want wireframe mode plx
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:38:00 - [437] Originally by: Sky Marshal Tl;dr whine No matter how many times you people are told something you insist on sticking your head in the sand and refuse to learn or accept the truth. For the last damned time. Vista is Windows 6 and Windows 7 is actually Win 6.1. Windows 7 is nothing more than an upgrade to Vista. The rest of your whine is meaningless because you're ignorant. In the end CCP have taken the right step in the right direction. It will make life for them much easier as they will only have to maintain one client rather than two. Hopefully that will allow them to spend time on other things instead. To everyone who insists on whining: can I haz ur stuff?
Black Phlanx Caldari Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:39:00 - [438] Edited by: Black Phlanx on 14/01/2009 11:44:48 I can understand the concerns of those that game on older laptops.. but can we get real here? Those users still using SM1 laptops, look at this. The 8800 series of cards were top of the line a year ago... nvidia phased them out in 6 months with the 9800 series... now we have the 200 series of cards completely making the 9800's obsolete. If you cannot afford anything more expensive than your ATI 850PRO then you must be getting paid in stones or something at your job. Older cards are DIRT CHEAP. You can get a Geforce 8400 GS series card for under $45 USD! Technology moves forward, either try to keep up or get left behind. Most other companies wouldn't give a rats about losing older tech users (mainly because they don't still support anything lower than SM2) so don't take your anger out on CCP just because you want to keep your Pentium 1 laptop that's still running Windows 3.1 SM1 has been well overdue to get phased out. And like above said, if you're so against it then feel free to donate all your assets to me in a trade.
Buga Buga Hecate Inferno	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:39:00 - [439] Originally by: Jackie Fisher IIRC when Premium client was first released didn't CCP make available a utility so people could check if their PC was compatible. Something similar for SM2/3 would be a helpful gesture. Yeah, CCP should also make a utility that checks if you have internet!
Epitrope The Citadel Manufacturing and Trade Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:41:00 - [440] I took the liberty of making my own pixel shader detector. It's tiny, it simply displays the highest pixel shader profile version supported by each of the video cards on the system. The zip file includes the source, so you're welcome to recompile it if you feel it necessary (with the caveat that you need Visual C++ Express and the DirectX SDK). If some CCPian wants to recompile it and add it to the dev blog, I think this could clear up some confusion... (since sadly this will be buried on page 15). http://owenja.dyndns.org/files/shadermodel.zip

Buga Buga Hecate Inferno	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:42:00 - [441] WHAT? Is the world so ******ed that it can;t freakin read the card specs? Just go the nvidia/ati site and look at your damn model and youll see what shader model it uses lol..
Freezehunter Gallente O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:43:00 - [442] Right now i have a 6 year old Celeron with ATi 9250 graphics card..., PIXEL SHADER 1.3!!! I should get a new PC next month, but if i don't i will be screwed and i won't be able to play Eve anymore... At least give me a skill queue so i can put lots of lvl 4 and 5 skills in it 'till i upgrade :\|
Fennicus Amarr Shoot To Thrill	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:43:00 - [443] Edited by: Fennicus on 14/01/2009 11:43:54 Methinks it would be a good idea for CCP to actually go out and find out how many players would be affected, rather than pluck a figure out of the air. I too thought this was a good idea at first but then I realised the game would probably stop working on most players laptops, especially the ones who've been playing since/near to game release on the same machine. Perhaps through some kind of Steam-esque hardware survey.
Fionnbharr	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:44:00 - [444] Regarding the change to Shader Model 3 as a minimum requirement, I am in a rather comfortable position since I have SM3-capable GPU, albeit a low end one (Mobility Radeon X1400). So while I might have to reduce the quality settings with the Premium Light client - I run Classic at medium-ish settings in 1680x1050 -, I'd still be able to play EVE next year. Still, I believe that requiring SM3-capable GPUs would be the wrong move. EVE needs to evolve, and I'm all for the Premium Lite idea. You cannot drag around legacy support forever, and merging the two clients into one as you plan for the March update will probably do a lot more good than harm. But you need to make absolutely sure that the vast majority of players won't be (too) negatively affected by such changes. Yes, the average casual player will probably be able to run the Winter '09 update. Even if not, three months' worth of EVE subscription will buy him a mid-range SM3 graphics card. If this is out of the question even around Christmas, then maybe spending more than $130 a year on EVE isn't the best idea in the first place. But you're all but ignoring laptop users here! Yes, "most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3". But Laptops are sold with older technology for a much longer time than desktops, because latest-generation laptops are a lot more expensive than desktops. And on top of that, there's virtually no way to upgrade them, so you'll have to stick with your chosen technology for a much longer time. So we're not talking about shutting out a few people with way-below-average systems, who on top of it could easily change that by spending a few bucks on a new GPU. We're talking about people who bought their laptops less than three years ago, and that's regarded from a Winter '09 perspective. Those people may make for a significant number of EVE players, especially if you count those who play EVE on their laptops only if they're away from home (i.e., the serious, long-time players). Those people would have to buy not a new computer but a new laptop to continue their current EVE experience. I think this would be a much too radical change. You "predict that in q4 this year over 97% of subscribers will have SM3 capable hardware". Even if this were true, and considering notebook users, I am far from convinced it is, you'd probably upset a lot more than 3% of your users, especially among the serious, multiple-account, "EVE-away-from-home" players which I assume you value a lot. Before you even consider this step, you should get solid statistics on the hardware capabilities your users have. Maybe add a hardware survey similar to Steam's. Add a user-hash and the age in years of the account, and you'll even get data on what kind of user uses what kind of hardware without violating their privacy. Then, if and when you know the time is right, go ahead with the update. Just don't do it too early.
Buga Buga Hecate Inferno	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:45:00 - [445] I bought a 2x9800gx2 to play Eve and people whine about "omagad I dont has sm2". The sm2 cards are so cheap you can even find them in the dumpsters around tech shops.
KISOGOKU	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:46:00 - [446] You are good to go ,it has SM 4.0 Originally by: Kumi Unn ATI Radeon 3100 1918MB of memory Can I run EVE?!
Jackie Fisher Hegemony Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:47:00 - [447] Originally by: Buga Buga Yeah, CCP should also make a utility that checks if you have internet! They could bundle that up with the SM2/3 checker.
Dark Background	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:56:00 - [448] Originally by: Qual I guess thats as good a reason as any to stop and look around at what other stuff is out there. After that long a bit of forced hand in stopping might not be that bad. I'm also in this boat - no support for SM3 and welcoming someone raising the bar to test my loyalty to Eve. It will give me a natural point to assess if I'm really still enjoying Eve or it's just a habit.
HyperZerg	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:57:00 - [449] I remember around 3-4 Years ago I wanted to play Splinter-Cell but nooo, my Shader was only 1.1 :( This was one of the reasons to upgrade my PC. Also i bougth a Laptop last year: Stats of both PCs: dual 2,2GHz/2,5GHz Geforce 8600GT / 9500M 3GB Ram So Eve will run for me anyway ;) We have a BIG Problem here. Eve has to adapt, upgrade the Graphic-Content to get new Players. To maintain 2 Versions of the same game is a really stupid idea so they get one with some extra features. But: Many people here play Eve not because of the nice Graphic, no they love this unique sandbox. Make it easy, write a small tool that asks the player on one start with a nice Popup if he would like to upload his system-specs, at least CPU/RAM/Graphics. If you see 99% use Shader 3, change it. If only 70% use Shader 3 ..... think about it.
TamiyaCowboy Caldari The White Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:00:00 - [450] myself can ride out the storm. i spent last year ú700 gbp on a whole new system. i can understand the need too remove certain things CCP but have you realy thought out what would be required for an upgrade. GF5600 Ultra does not require a extra powersource too run said card. gf6600 LE. this card require a minimum 300w psu too help run card gf9600 GT. this card require a minimum 400w psu too run card so not only does one have too upgrade a graphics card they may/will have too also upgrade thier power supply too cope with the new card being installed let alone thier pc being able too run this card without showing bottlenecks here and there. this is real life money some folks just wont have what with the way things are money wise. could be a upgrade pc or leave eve-online. my old pc was a single core 2.4ghz 478 socket northwood, had 1gb ram and a 6600LE nvidia card. i could never run premium graphics with a decent enough frame rate, and was stuck with classic client. i then upgraded too a 7600 nvidia card. yet again could not use premium client as frame rate (14fps) was too low too play with.the new quad core and 9600 i run lets me have 160+ fps a massive jump in frame rate and the fancy graphics but at a huge cost too my real life wallet. personaly i would keep SM2 untill next year this time, and while waiting and doing fancy things gather infomation on what the public are running eve on. get an idea of exactly the lowest shader model is being used by public. not everyone can throw around real life isk now. 2 months is not much of a warning!! Tami

Wolfthing Black	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:00:00 - [451] I can see the point, but it doesn't stop this filling me with dread. The reason I'm playing Eve is because I bought a new laptop (HP Pavilion Multimedia tx2000, AMD Turion 64x2 mobile, 2Gb RAM) and wanted to see what it was capabale of - I've been hooked ever since. Now granted, I have to run the standard graphics version of the client - I can even get away with running two in "windowed" mode. This machien doesn't have a whizzy graphics card - and is not capabale of upgrade, what with it being a laptop. If you wanted to parallel run the new client, drop me an e-mail and I'll gladly try it out - but DON'T drop the old client until the new one has been proved!
Trojanman190 Yultani Advanced Research	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:04:00 - [452] I'm currently part of a software project that is running dual development pipelines and it sucks... Condensing eve to single branch is absolutely the best way to go about things. I run two premium accounts so the rest of the blog does not really effect me, but faster fixes and improvements to the engine is always a good thing.
Akima Kumiko	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:07:00 - [453] Any news regarding Linux?
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:13:00 - [454] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 14/01/2009 12:13:44 Originally by: Super Whopper Originally by: Sky Marshal Tl;dr whine No matter how many times you people are told something you insist on sticking your head in the sand and refuse to learn or accept the truth. For the last damned time. Vista is Windows 6 and Windows 7 is actually Win 6.1. Windows 7 is nothing more than an upgrade to Vista. The rest of your whine is meaningless because you're ignorant. Did I say that Windows 7 pwns ? No. I said "CCP probably think something like [it was] for Vista, who everyone said it will be in all PCs and will make everyone upgrade their computer.". I admit, I am not a pro in english. So I will rewrite it for you : I said that the CCP estimation for the usage of 3.0 SM cards probably take in consideration the launch of Windows 7 in mid-2009, who will require new hardware anyway, to be so optimistic. 97% of 3.0 cards at end-2009 is totally unrealistic. You are right about Windows 7 but same with that, it exists a real demand about this version, as Microsoft stated that 7 will be nearly what Vista would be at the first place. Better performance than Vista etc... I doubt of it but we will see. So go complaining badly against whines in an another topic. If you don't like it, I suggest you to go in a game where there are less of them. Can I have your stuff before you go ? I will use it correctly, I swear it :) ___________________ CCP deserves only disrespect and hatred for all nerfs since Empyrean Age.
DarkonRhoe Ergo Abstergo	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:18:00 - [455] looks sad as his 386. Guess i gonna need a upgrade than huh? A well all JK aside PErsonnaly this aiont a problem for me but I do know that a lot of people run EVE on a laptop or older rig. So I would think some thought about this might be wise.
sxndy Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:32:00 - [456] Will I still be able to run 3 clients on my mobile phone?
Jake Maverick	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:40:00 - [457] Well .... it sounds cool but I bought a 400 dollar Netbook pretty much just so I can mine on my alt when I am at work... As long as I can still play Eve on an Intel 945M mobile Gfx I am happy. My main rig is spyder platform with all the fixin's and will run 3 Clients in Premium with all Eye Candy at max over 70 FPS so w/e... just don't kill my mining netbook haha
Golden Gnu Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:43:00 - [458] Apparently my secondary computers graphic card only support Pixel shader 2 (It's an ATI X700) Conclusion: Don't EVER remove pixel shader 2 compatibility, please with sugar on the top :)
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:44:00 - [459] wait so my really pretty game is going to be more pretty? for those that don't want to get a shader model 2 graphics card apparently their is a program called "swiftshader" that'll pretend you have a shader model 2 graphics card you just lose some fps apparently shader model 3 can't be done.... atleast that gives you till december to get a cheap graphics card that'll run shader model 3 :) it may or may not work it may or may not kill your computer and it's totally not my fault if your computer explodes/melts/crashes/falls apart/grows legs and runs away
Gebher'el Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:45:00 - [460] I have read some of this thread and I must say what I am reading amazes me. As a computer professional specializing in home users the number of people that are gaming on cheap laptops really suprises me. Now reading the blog I understand where they are goin. Right now every patch requires two times the work and effort. Think about that guys. If we reduce out the redundent client CCP can put more content and quality control into every patch without needing to increase manpower or cost. Additionally they could if they choose stay with the same level of quality control and content and pump out a third or even 4th expansion each year. Plus if you play any modern games you already are facing this issue. Every other MMO is moving in this direction and all stand alone games are already there. If you are so loathe to upgrade then you will be stuck playing a few old games and that will be it. For stand alone computers, not latops, this is not that big a deal. Shader 3 cards come in many price ranges and even the cheap ones today do a great job. As for laptop users, if you are running Intel graphics what are you thinking. That level of laptop was NEVER considered a gaming machine. Before I hear the whines on price, I have an AMD Puma based laptop sitting on my desk beside me that runs EVE Premium now and the cost was $700. Not a ton of money where a laptop is concerned. I see this as a potential win for those of us that play Eve as it means the folks at CCP can free resources for a better game. Sure it means some people need to upgrade but when has that not been an issue in any computer game? If the ONLY reason you play Eve is the system requirements then you need an upgrade bad to enjoy the rest of the gaming world. If you play Eve for the content, community and becuse you just love the game then this is not a big deal.

Mallikanth	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:57:00 - [461] Originally by: Gebher'el Sensible stuff said I totally agree. Go for it CCP.
Crass Spektakel Coreward Technologies	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:01:00 - [462] Do you know which action game is the most played one? http://archive.gamespy.com/stats/ No, it is not Farcry2, also not Halflife2, it is... COUNTERSTRIKE. Yes, that old meany from 12 years ago is still the most played game on earth, it has more players than all other games united. Imagine that, 12 years old graphics, 12 years old levels... 12 years and people play it ten times more than the new Counterstrike Source. And it makes sense: You can play it on every computer imaginable, it runs well even on a Pentium133 without 3D-graphics. This is a big plus because people can meet somewhere and use nearly every imaginable computer for a small lan party.
Navtiqes Noob Mercs	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:06:00 - [463] A hearty YES to discontinuing shader 2.0 by 2010 if it means we'll get more content faster.
Poreuomai Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:09:00 - [464] Erm, since when does the Amiga support pixel shaders? Anyway, my current machine runs EVE classic just fine, even in big fleets, but does not support shader model 2. So I either have to find a shader model 2 card which fits into my computer or I have to get a whole new machine (which I was planing to get when ambulation hits the streets). In these economic times, why not wait until the winter expansion instead of giving us less than two months notice that we might need whole new machines to continue playing eve?
sullo25	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:16:00 - [465] all i can say after reading this forum is that it seems ccp unlike most other companies can do without current users money who are on older systems.At this time the economy in most countries is F***ed and there trying to lose customers by removing there ability to play the game.is their money not as good as premium users money?.i know a lot of people struggle just to pay the montly fee at the moment, now your asking them to fork out more cash so you can reduce your workload and costs and increase ur profits.If you do go ahead with this patch are you going to lower the cost of the subscription as you have less work to do looking after the classic content and now only have to concentrate on the premium????only fair.
Jake Maverick	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:16:00 - [466] Originally by: Gebher'el Intelligent conversation (rare in forums). I agree with you... to a point. Take into consideration if you will, my age. I am 22 years old; I was born into the internet revolution. Silicon runs through my blood. I am A+ and CCNA lvl3 (so far) certified. I love playing with computers, cars, R/C plane etc... But most of all what I like to do is build computers and play Eve. So naturally I have all the latest hardware and don't care if CCP drops the low client entirely. Now take into consideration the average player age in EVE. Reading from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVE_Online I found it to be 27 (under Demographics) This means for every anoying 8 year old (not all of them are annoying..no offence if you are 8 and reading this) there is a player older than 27. From my experience I am one of the youngest members of my alliance. The point I am trying to make here is that a lot of people get set in their ways. Joe Eve player, a 47 year old construction worker from Montana has no idea what a shader is. His son probably got him hooked on the game and that was that. He is not going to go out and buy new PC hardware and upgrade it. He just won't care enough. The danger I am seeing is that EVE will lose a lot of the players that just don't give (insert explative here) about their hardware. my only concern is my little mining netbook I will weep openly for at least a minute if I can't use it for the only thing I bought it for. haha
Gadawan	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:18:00 - [467] Originally by: Crass Spektakel Do you know which action game is the most played one? http://archive.gamespy.com/stats/ No, it is not Farcry2, also not Halflife2, it is... COUNTERSTRIKE. Yes, that old meany from 12 years ago is still the most played game on earth, it has more players than all other games united. Imagine that, 12 years old graphics, 12 years old levels... 12 years and people play it ten times more than the new Counterstrike Source. And it makes sense: You can play it on every computer imaginable, it runs well even on a Pentium133 without 3D-graphics. This is a big plus because people can meet somewhere and use nearly every imaginable computer for a small lan party. It's not played because of low system recuirements. Get your facts straight.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:18:00 - [468] Originally by: Gebher'el As for laptop users, if you are running Intel graphics what are you thinking. What we were thinking was "Laptops are handy things to carry around or tuck down the side of the sofa. Oh look, it'll even let me log into Eve and change a skill, do some industrial housework or chat with my friends". When someone says "people shouldn't play games on laptops" I'm inclined to agree. They are by and large not suitable for various reasons. However a lot of us aren't "playing" Eve on them. We use them as a convenience for a bit of light work or a way to stay in touch with friends. It's not a major problem for us if we can't do that but it is annoying. I'm not going to spend ú500 quid on a new laptop just so that I can log on. It makes no sense.
Kappas. Galaxy Punks	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:21:00 - [469] So everyone here wants eve to drag behind because some people can't afford ú50 for a new graphics card? And at the laptop issue: if you bought a laptop to do your gaming and never got a decent card with it then fool on you tbh.
Korerin Mayul	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:31:00 - [470] Easier job for the artists: good Unified artwork assets: great! killing SM2, (still in wide use): BAD! maby in a few more years where were raytraceing everything and dont need to run SETI @ home anymore :D

Poreuomai Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:32:00 - [471] Now I'm a bit confused, as I have a GeForce FX 5900 card which according to NVIDIA supports ShaderModel 2, but I'm sure that it only supported PixelShader 1.3 when I bought it and I don't think it is something which can be update with driver changes.
Daan Sai Polytrope	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:34:00 - [472] Away from home I run classic under wine in Ubuntu on my solid state Eeepc 901 netbook, with it's 2 watt atom cpu and 7.5 watt integrated intel 945 graphics. (Well without texture maps, but meh, all the ships are white) It is good for logging in and skill changing etc. Hopefully Prem lite will be able to be trimmed right down, I'd hate to lose the ability to catch those annoying 8 hour skill changes.
Cabernetter Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse The ENTITY.	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:36:00 - [473] With the economy in the US as it is, President Obama will likely roll over the Section 179 expense limit to tax year 2009. So for those in the US, perhaps 2009 will be a good year to buy a new computer and expense it under 179.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:38:00 - [474] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 14/01/2009 13:40:41 Originally by: Gebher'el As for laptop users, if you are running Intel graphics what are you thinking. That level of laptop was NEVER considered a gaming machine. This part of your text I am reading amazes me. There was a day than the same words was applied to... personal computers. PC are not meaning to play games. Buy a console ! They are less expensive and more powerful (Megadrive, Playstation, etc...). This changed. PC are no more considered only as a workstation for companies, but also as a good game system. I don't see why laptops, specialy expensive ones who have good graphics chipset, can't be used to play. As you said yourself, you have a laptop who can run Eve Premium. They still have some problems, but they are manageable and corrected with time in newer models. Opinions changes with time.
Koyama Ise Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:46:00 - [475] Originally by: makanesi Does this mean premium graphics will finally come to the mac? Yes. MAC Premium Graphics Public Beta Now Open
Murdock Jern Caldari Gears of Progress	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:49:00 - [476] Edited by: Murdock Jern on 14/01/2009 13:50:07 I think that Gebher'el's comments were very balanced and kinda sums up my thinking of the project. Although I will probably not be able to run the client on my netbook (which i only do to change skills and chat with my corp while on holiday... I would NEVER dream of undocking on it) I can understand the commercial reasons why they are streamlining the graphics development. I suspect that once it is deployed we will see a huge leap in new features and capabilities, as the amount of work involved in looking after two clients will be reduced. If CCP is reading this, I would simply suggest that the user base is sampled to asses the impact of changing the floor spec so they can assess the impact, as I am sure they already have. And I also believe that, by the time they start to sunset PS2 in 2010, most of us will already be on hardware that supports it, or in the worst case scenario, CCP might be able to provide some software based workarounds to emulate PS3 on a PS2 environment. And yes, I predict that wont happen until next year... their ambitions and the reality will be very different, I predict. I personally endorse this move. It will make Eve an even more visually stunning experience and will help create a larger and more robust universe. And by the time it starts to bite some of us regarding hardware, we will probably already be there You can't halt the gears of progress Apologies for the shameless corporation plug MJ
PinkyPie	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:50:00 - [477] Edited by: PinkyPie on 14/01/2009 13:49:54 Main thing is today if you want to upgrade your systems most probably buying a new system is the best solution, since upgrading to a higher end graphics card requires more psu, then it will need cooling systems, then you have to struggle if your motherboard doesn't tunes with the card and other stuff. This costs real money not isk, i can run premium client on my machine but i run classic client because that way i can run two clients simultaneously which that is not even remotely possible with premium. IMO if premium lite is almost as heavy as premium then it will be hard for many folks to just quit it. I don't understand when there are so many things to correct in eve, improve performance then why CCP goes on to increase graphics card requirement every few months. There are lots of other good games out there which require such type of graphics card, and if i am upgrading my system then i can as well switch to those games.
Corben Rukh	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:53:00 - [478] Since you were asking for answers from people affected by the posted changes: i currently run a ATI X800. That one supports Shader Model 2.0 and so i'm not affected by the changes in Apocrypha, but very much affected by the consideration of discontinuing SM 2.0 support in q4. I can currently run all the games i play with the x800, and, since i don't have that much time to play anyway, i don't see that changing during the year. I also will _not_ upgrade/change my hardware because of changed requirements of one game (although that one's one of my favourites). So, if you really decide to discontinue your support of SM 2.0 in late '09, i will discontinue my support of your game. Not an easy decision, 'cause EVE has been my favourite gaming pasttime for over 2 years now, but sorry, no; i will not pay a considerable amount of money for new hardware just to be able to continue playing.
Kappas. Galaxy Punks	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:09:00 - [479] GeForce 8400GS (PCI-E), shader model 4.0 = ú25 GeForce 6200 (AGP), shader model 3.0 = ú31 Not exactly record breaking amounts of money to spend to keep CCP's production costs down and make eve a better game for everyone.
Amitious Turkey Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:09:00 - [480] Originally by: Batolemaeus Edited by: Batolemaeus on 13/01/2009 19:09:09 Actually think i might make a long reply later, but for now, this will be enough: <3 Reason why i post this is mostly the utter confusion about classic, premium, and premium running classic (!, not the same as classic!) among people. And if even i can afford a sm2 capable card, so can probably everyone else. (The price of even a sm3 capable card is currently less than a 60d gtc) Eve might not run on some laptops though.. Yeah, you can't upgrade laptop graphics cards...or can you, and I have just not found a way? Bought a new laptop recently, but its graphics card isn't on wikipedia's chart. It's "Intel express chipset" or somesuch...and it has a hard time with explosions, and, I think, shading. It aint meant for the uber games, and I didn't need onefor that...but now I'm worried I won't be able to play Eve cries

Case Mass Griefers On Demand And More	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:17:00 - [481] Dear CCP, Thank you for letting me know not only will you be sending me a new laptop which you will support, but a desktop as well since you will be forcing me to upgrade or cancel my subscription as of March 10th. Since I am unable to upgrade, I would like to thank you for your letter of employment offering me $100,000 US a year, with a bonus of $50,000 as a sign on to help pay for any other future upgrades, and to move my junk out of the horrible neighborhood I live where I battle homies and their 9's and into Iceland for the the position you have offered me. I am sure my current boss will be happy for me that I will no longer have to work 100 hours a week, on call 24/7 at $10.78 an hour assisting wanna be techies that have no degrees, get paid more than I do, and have mommy and daddy pay for everything, fixing their own screw ups and letting them know it was my fault. After which I come home, hit the bottle and play your lovely game on my old outdated equipment. I would also like to thank you for paying off my student loans and giving me the blowjob with the reach around after fracking me in the rear really good this time. Oh, before I forget, please make the American dollar worth something again so that I can actually upgrade my PC's with the signing bonus you have offered me. From someone who has stuck around since 12k players was a massive hit until you shut me down like those highschool cheerleaders with a swift kick in the nuts and my ex wife.. Me. P.S. I'm listening to Moody Blues and cutting my wrists now with the backround thumping of Kanye West, Lil Wayne, and T.I. Thanks CCP. You were my only hope. Now wtf is R2D2 going to do. P.S.S. This is the letter I would have sent you if the above statements were factual. Instead I will just curse you for making me upgrade. <3
Aldiree Antima Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:19:00 - [482] Originally by: Shadowsword Are you going to: A/ create lower-res textures that will sit on the hard drive, or.. B/ Make the client take existing high-res textures, use computer ressources to degrade them, then diplay them? That's what Age of Conan did, with the predictable result of making the cilent run worse with lower settings? It depends on the details of the implementation: A) They can do this at CCP-Headquarters + you only need to select low res textures + no overhead on your side - client gets bigger clients - no dynamical adaptation to player machine (e.g. optimized for 128MB or 256MB gfxram) between A + B) Client generate the low res textures on setup / config request + can use specs of the target machine (dynamical adaptation) + client gets only bigger on your harddrive (high res + generated low res textures) saves bandwidth - generation of low res texture takes time at least several minutes (Battlefield 2 made me wait at least 20 min for this setup step) B) on the fly generation + time for generation is chopped in little pieces as needed by the player - crappy performance !?
eladi Gallente Interstellar Federal Forces	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:19:00 - [483] My ITX machine wont suport shader 3, ( Intel 945) nor would my and all notebooks whit that chipset or lower. shader 2 will be a drain on some of the cheaper system using intel chips only but doalble.. shader 3 would kinda make it unplayable for alot I think. the strenght to user lower end system and notebook to play eve would be lost whit the discontinu of shader 2.
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:21:00 - [484] I am glad my brand new laptop supports SM 4.1
Miklabjarnir Primus	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:23:00 - [485] So - I have: * 2.2 HHz Intel Core 2 Duo * 4 GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM * GeForce 8600M GT * 1440 x 900 LCD display - but I can only run the classic client because my OS is MacOS X version 10.5.6 I play on my MacBook Pro when I'm in a lonesome hotel room, commuting, or visiting friends. A different laptop is not an option, this is my work laptop and it is less than a year old. Besides, the alternative would be a laptop running BSD or Linux, which does not seem to support the new client any better. Sure, I would like to see a new "Premium Light" client for all platforms, and also a premium client, even though the fans in my laptop already run at full blast when I play EVE with the classic client. But, more important, one of the things I like about EVE is that it does not pander too much to useless graphical fluff, it concetrates more on content and gameplay than other online games. The classic graphics are good enough (except for deadspace silliness), and it might seem like a waste of resources to strive for better graphics instead of spending resources on content.
Snyder Aringdon Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:24:00 - [486] Originally by: Black Phlanx Edited by: Black Phlanx on 14/01/2009 11:44:48 I can understand the concerns of those that game on older laptops.. but can we get real here? Those users still using SM1 laptops, look at this. The 8800 series of cards were top of the line a year ago... nvidia phased them out in 6 months with the 9800 series... now we have the 200 series of cards completely making the 9800's obsolete. If you cannot afford anything more expensive than your ATI 850PRO then you must be getting paid in stones or something at your job. Older cards are DIRT CHEAP. You can get a Geforce 8400 GS series card for under $45 USD! Technology moves forward, either try to keep up or get left behind. Most other companies wouldn't give a rats about losing older tech users (mainly because they don't still support anything lower than SM2) so don't take your anger out on CCP just because you want to keep your Pentium 1 laptop that's still running Windows 3.1 SM1 has been well overdue to get phased out. And like above said, if you're so against it then feel free to donate all your assets to me in a trade. I don't appreciate you lack of concern and knowledge of mobile devices. First of all, laptops, as I said, don't have external cards, so we are FORCED to buy new lappys/compys to get better cards. Even so, I have a pretty good business-grade laptop (Dell Latitude D620) and upgraded NVidia card (Quadro 110M), so it's not like I'm playing with a dinosaur laptop. But even with the upgrade (two years old), I only have 4/3 ShaderModel supported hardware. Second of all, having a part-time job, attending college and being married don't add up to very much discretionary income. I don't get "paid in stones," I just have a life. Not all of us are single apartment-dwelling gamers who have the time and money to invest heavily in their gaming rigs. Those of us who aren't would like to continue to play EVE as well.
Ralitge boyter Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:25:00 - [487] I think moving to Shader model 2 makes sense I mean shader model 2 has been out there for a very long time now (computer graphics time scales) and most people will have something like this running already. Shader model 3 is simply to much of a leap, even Q3/4 2009 I would guess that you are going to kill off at least 10% of your subscriber base by killing of Shader model 2, I mean laptops except for the newest versions will all be out, shader model 3 for the laptop has not been around for very long and certainly not in an cheap package... I hope CCP will accept that yes looking pretty is nice but it is much nicer if the game can be played on many more systems, a premium client and a clasic version was your own solution and I think it worked very well for many people. Making a single version again is of course a much better idea but do not do that by killing off your customer base just so you can show some bling bling at a trade show and shout it is actuall in game footage. Less bling and more play is far beter from a customer satisfaction point of view.
Chib Armada. Onslaught.	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:33:00 - [488] Although graphics cards are cheap in this day and age i currently use a radeon 9550 and its as far as i can go with my current motherboard....if im forced to upgrade then for me i have to replace my motherboard/ram and graphics card and this i cannot do currently living in a recession and are unemployed as a result i can barely afford to play eve atm never mind upgrade my entire computer ---------------------------------------------

CCP Redundancy	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:33:00 - [489] Originally by: Amitious Turkey Guess I'll have to buy another new computer...or something. Unless I can figure out what kind of shader my graphics card supports. It runs SOASE on high graphics ? The min required cards listed on the Sins of a Solar Empire website seem to be Shader Model 2. Senior Graphics Programmer, Core Graphics Group

SirFett Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:34:00 - [490] does that mean trinity is getting a major overhaul ? also does that mean you are gona put some edges back into my absolution, so i can look at it, when im forced to use the premium client, wich when sitting in a station uses so much more graphics power for that even more borring than in classic interior of the amarr stations ?

Chib Armada. Onslaught.	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:35:00 - [491] yeah, SM2 i can handle....sm3 you can pay for ---------------------------------------------
Neoteric Intergalactic Jesters Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:40:00 - [492] I use the classic atm & when I startup it does say I can upgrade to premium. This is on a 3 year old Toshiba Qosmio & I still get a slow respones from it in classic, so going premium would make it worse? I have very minimum background tast going on but evening trying to veiw a few web site while playing, nowadays, is becoming to slow. Is supported the same as playable I ask?
Sylar McIntyr Caldari Konstrukteure der Zukunft AAA Citizens	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:53:00 - [493] SO i just gave the premium client a try on my laptop. It is obviously able to run it but just a single account and only with the 'Classic graphics' anything else is close to unplayable. While im looking forward to better graphics (and planning to get a new laptop anyway) im a bit sceptic about the performace. And please don't kill SM2 that fast ________________________________________________ Making space dangerous again !
Venomous Nightmare	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:55:00 - [494] Now according to the news, Apocrypha will replace classic with premium lite, premium will stay the same but with better graphics and so on, so what at the end of the year premium lite will not be in existence towards the end of 09 so you would have to upgrade to premium to continue playing eve or get a better computer the has the necessary hardware to run it right! Ven
Eva Miridian	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:59:00 - [495] SM 3 would make it impossible for me to play using my laptop, effectively making it impossible for me to play the game during 90% of my so called "free time". If you're going to make this change, could you at least put in some combination of skill queuing and website skill changes?
Aldiree Antima Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:00:00 - [496] Originally by: Poreuomai Now I'm a bit confused, as I have a GeForce FX 5900 card which according to NVIDIA supports ShaderModel 2, but I'm sure that it only supported PixelShader 1.3 when I bought it and I don't think it is something which can be update with driver changes. Windows users get GPU-Z at http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/ it shows your supported Shader Model and DirectX Version.
millsy4606	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:05:00 - [497] Can't afford a new laptop- then get a new job, im typing this on my iPod touch. Why should I pay out good money on graphics cards, ram, HD screens? Because I want the best, I want to see the little glow that my cruise missiles give off when they smash into the side of another ship, I want my ship to have nice crisp edges when I'm popping into an amarr station. I don't think a game should be put off by a couple of people who say they won't buy new gear. I don't make loads of money but if I want something then I'll save up, I may not go out sometimes at weekends and blow ú100 on beer and taxis. I say go ahead, I don't want to know if EVE can run on an amstrad 64, I want to know which graphics card I'll have to buy next to keep playing eve.
Lrrp Minmatar The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:09:00 - [498] While my new comp. can handle everything Eve premium can throw at it, if you are going to upgrade requirements please for the love of the virgin Mary, make Eve handle Anti Aliasing.
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:15:00 - [499] At first read, this sounds like the end of my Eve. Your "Premium" client is STILL stinking pile of bile, which I won't touch with a 20ft pole. it.just.doesn't.work.reliably. end of story. Nothing to do with shaders or the age of my brand new machine. With your track record on making good on your promises, I would rather see you FIRST deliver working alternative for classic BEFORE you take away working eve client. Don't you collect basic statistics? Each client could so easily send if it's premium or classic starting up, giving you an idea what's the ratio currently in premium vs classic - and don't assume all those have crappy PC's, start wondering if there is a reason why people reject your premium client... I am very very pessimistic about this, and if I lose my few friends that play this game due to this, you will surely lose me as well - just to say that similar things may happen alot, losing people who could run eve, but lost their friends... tsk tsk -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval
Lacco Cool Ninjas of Awesome Ownage Paisti Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:17:00 - [500] the development tends to go for more shiney and good looking graphics, but combat lag is still a monster lurking under the surface that seems to be a minor concern. all new features keep coming in, but the lag remains unbearable when battle involves tens of players at once. I dont care if the game had no graphical upgrades or what so ever just as long as the gameplay was looked into first I'm on TV! I'm famous!

Kain Duku	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:17:00 - [501] ok sounds like they want me to spend more money upgrading my computer, great
Baeryn Caldari Corporate Sin Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:20:00 - [502] Just offer a version that lets me turn off the "chrome", and I'll be happy. EVE's been appealing to me because I can run the classic version on almost any PC - please don't take that ability away from me. Wireframe EVE would be sufficient! Role Playing Games by RolePlayGateway
Ruoska	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:22:00 - [503] I find this distasteful and traitorous! Granted that you didn't exactly say for how long would you be having classic client, but this is way too soon to drop it, given the unreliability of the premium client. You are making the biggest mistake of your lives here, I imagine. I for one, disapprove religiously this decision. P.S. less than a year old PC. P.S.S. How does it work is far more important than how does it look.
Mjoelnir Thorwulf Royal East Eve Trading Company	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:26:00 - [504] I can't express how strongly I disapprove this. For the love of god, don't do this, without first giving a WORKING alternative. With my new PC, I would not dream of running the premium due to classic being far more reliable. I'm quite shell shocked and in this initial phase of horror and resentment, I can imagine this being make-or-break for my subscriptions. My signature exceeds the maxium allowed coolness factor. -- Mjoelnir Thorwulf
Poreuomai Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:43:00 - [505] Edited by: Poreuomai on 14/01/2009 15:44:04 Originally by: Aldiree Antima Windows users get GPU-Z at http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/ it shows your supported Shader Model and DirectX Version. Thanks for the tip. Originally by: Baeryn Wireframe EVE would be sufficient! This. *Let My People Go*
Ferria Caldari The Eden Project	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:45:00 - [506] I must agree that a step up in minimum system requirements is needed to continue to improve graphics I would caution against the discontinue of shader model 2. as that would leave most laptops bought during or prior to 2006 unable to be used. However as to many of the people complaining of the immense cost of upgrading desktops to support shader model 3 or 4 I can atleast say to the US crowd look to newegg I found many avalible for $50 or lower, and if your willing to go "old" you could probably get one for under $25
Awesome Marie	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:46:00 - [507] As long as you choose to implement lowres texture to the Premium light DL package rather than forinc the game to RL-downgrade textures and effects I'm satisfied. I like the new skins so I'm looking forward to this. But I DON'T want it to be much laggyer. Rather just the standard classic version but with upgraded textures (take the Domi as an example).
Straight Chillen Gallente The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:50:00 - [508] Wow way to take a giant leap backwards. Why not try making the game run smoothly before doing something like this. I also think you would get more players buy making the game run on a larger range of hardware then by making everything very shiney. This seems like a very WoW~ish line of thinking to mee. I really hope I wont be forced to cancel my accounts come march 10th, because it really seems that its going that way
Ted Grayham Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:51:00 - [509] Edited by: Ted Grayham on 14/01/2009 15:51:22 Good going! Progress and maintainability is always good. Something you might consider is creating a simple "shell" as well, where you can change your skills and make market orders w/o graphics rendering. That could make a good compromise for people who still want to maintain their character through stolen WiFi Internet on their net-book PCs :-p
Zedah Zoid Nutz N Boltz Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:57:00 - [510] To all the "upgrade or get out" screamers in this thread, I'm just curious. Do you really play Eve because of the pretty pictures? For me, that's pretty far down the list of why this is a great game. And it is a great game.

Llievit Nnang Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:00:00 - [511] Not sure what people's issues with the premium client are. I've been running premium on vista since I upgraded my system last spring. No stability issues even when running multiple clients. I used to run EVE on an Athlon XP and a FX5200 before the upgrade and I was very glad I was able to play on such an outdated machine. At the same time I was aware it was pure luck, my outdated system was enough to play EVE. Therefor I doubt my reaction to this anouncement would have been much more than: "Le sigh ... I knew that day would come ... ." Give people enough time to preprare for the discontinuation of support of the two 'depricated' shader models and I'm all for it Regarding people playing EVE solely on a laptop that is not equipped with a GPU suitable for playing in the future. Be lucky you got a warning -Ll
Snyder Aringdon Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:01:00 - [512] So, basically, here's what I've read so far: A lot of people are expressing financial concerns because, as some corporate game studio heads have forgotten, we are in a global recession, and in the U.S., we have a 7.8% unemployment rate and climbing (not to mention the dollar now has 65% the value of the Euro and is falling). So those of us who have part-time, minimum-wage jobs, kids and a wife to feed, student loans to pay off while attending college, rent/mortgage to pay off or possibly some mild misc. debt (if not some amalgamation of all these), who are going to be forced to buy new equipment to keep enjoying the one escapist social tool they've allowed themselves to devote most of their free-time to, will lose out on the investment they've trusted CCP would spend in the pursuit of making the experience continue as long as they were capable. Sure, we could just go out and buy new **, cuz even if we don't have cash or savings left, we can just charge it, right? Oh wait, yeah, my bank was shut down. And, oh yeah, my union may decide in six months that I'm too expensive to keep around, so I'm out of a job. Too bad I didn't save that $1000 I spent on a new compy instead of feeding my kids. Now, however, since it would be easier for them to ** these devoted trustees in the ass as opposed to keeping up with a system that, as far as I know, isn't broken, let's make it easy for the guys who are working well-paid jobs in one of the only rising industries in the world, because they deserve it. So guys like myself, who cannot afford to replace their lappy or upgrade their compy, will sadly but surely leave the world CCP made for us. In turn, many of our friends will leave because, as this is primarily a social game, you take out part of the society, you lose another huge chunk of the society that either depended on those initially lost or stuck around just to have someone to chat with. So you lose upwards of 1/15th of your subscribers. And when WoD comes out in five years, you bet your ass I won't be in line for one of your games.
Umbriele Gallente Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:04:00 - [513] What? I cant play eve on my vic20 anymore??!?!
Rogue Trayder	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:07:00 - [514] OK CCP, Im gonna run with this change, Im gonna accept that change is a part of life and that a strong business stratagem is to adapt or die.... I dont mind that CCP is getting rid of the classic client and trying to draw in new payers by making its standard interface all shiny. However. As an avid user of the Classic client, (my three month year old is far more interested in shiny things like car keys, and the premium client) and as I was about to be a new owner of a brand spanking new laptop for the purposes of playing EVE and stuff (now put on hold) can we have some linkies and comments on what current laptops will run the forthcoming EVE premium 'lite' client? May I start with a suggestion from Jason Hill (He knows who he is), which I am considering... Dell Laptop Your comments and heckles will be welcome... (Well, maybee no anti-Dell rants, life is too short) "I only drive em baby, I dunno what makes em work...!"
Jach Wong	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:14:00 - [515] Edited by: Jach Wong on 14/01/2009 16:15:20 Honestly, I would love to see a bare-minimum client that used only lines for graphics and form textboxes. Sure, the graphics enhance the game, but they aren't the game. All you need are crosses for NPCs, boxes for stations, brackets for players, lines for attacks, dots for missiles, etc. I'd take that kind of downgrade in graphics just to stave off frame lag.
Doublewhopper	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:14:00 - [516] It was always a great thing that EVE runs on almost any PC with the Classic Client. You could play it everywhere, on your laptop or at work with an office PC to chat or change skills. Also consider that most people got more than one account, because they could use older and cheap hardware. Maybe also hardware that was around and otherwise unused. Another thing is that most people use laptops for their multiaccount setup. Why? Because laptops don't consume that much energy. I have a laptop that is going on 30 Watts while running the classic client. It would be really a shame to loose the ability to use those machines while the Classic client is available anyway. We don't need walking on stations or shiny effects on the Classic client. That is why we use the Classic client. If i didn't want to use the Classic client, i would have gotten other hardware in the first place. The ability to choose the Classic client was a great benefit so far. Why not make a real user survey and see what the players think?
Lucias Trask Artificers	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:28:00 - [517] Wow.. Im torn. While my home computer running two 9800 GTX in SLI works great my 1 year old laptop is running an ATI Radeon POS that cant be upgraded. So I lose my $1500 basically new laptop for EVE. Im very conflicted here. Guess I gotta buy a new laptop! cheers [PANIC]
David Grogan Gallente The Motley Crew	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:29:00 - [518] :( my poor old dell inspiron (which currently can run eve classic ....just about) will no longer be able to run eve........it has that geforce 2 chipset in it can ccp lower the monthly subscription for a bit while we all save up for new laptops or graphics cards????
Kurt Ambrose Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:30:00 - [519] my laptop is sm2 compatible \o/ dont discontinue it later :P
Snake O'Donell	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:37:00 - [520] Originally by: Kurfin The game has to move forward or die. Exactly. I do not know anyone that plays PC games that doesn't have at least SM 2.0 support, and by winter or this year most SM 2.0 cards are going to be at least 4 years old. I am sorry, but if you are running hardware that old, there is a problem. If you cannot afford to upgrade your hardware, but you can afford to run 3 eve accounts at once there is a major problem with your priorities. I agree with making a stripped down client that doesn't allow you to undock for those of us that use junk laptops to switch skills or chat while at work.

Poreuomai Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:38:00 - [521] What will the "Minimum Spec" on the boxed version say? Are you really going to put "SM2" knowing that such systems cannot run the game six months later? *Let My People Go*
Yasd Dywypi	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:40:00 - [522] To CCP, Since you asked for feedback: I run EVE exclusively on a Thinkpad T42 laptop with ATI Radeon 9000 Mobility (PixelShader 1.4 only). It is my understanding from this thread that laptops with integrated graphics chips have no options for graphics card updates. Can someone confirm? If you had told us about this change 6-9 months ago, I might have purchased a new PC. But with my job at risk, I just can't invest in a gaming PC on top of the ~$15/month. Therefore, I will let my subscription lapse (in a completely non-emo rage sort of way). To everyone else, Enjoy T3 and WiS.
Phext Gallente Klondike War Industry Cold Steel Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:51:00 - [523] I'm playing Eve on a MacPro with 2xDualCore Xeons and a GForce 7300GT on Windows XP. The specs of that card say, that it supports SM3. Premium content as it is today is not an option with that card. I hope that the premium lite content is "simplyfied" enough, to run with an acceptable performance on GForce 7 series cards. We'll see...
Trevor McLane Caldari Tanaka Industries Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:54:00 - [524] Like many other players, I have multiple accounts and use a laptop with low end integrated graphics for my alternate accounts. Losing this capability will significantly reduce the usefulness of these accounts. Perhaps to the point that they are not worth keeping. You are the experts. I strongly encourage you to find a way to do BOTH ... get the benefits to your development process AND meet the needs of your player base. _________________________________________________________
Evil Catbert	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:05:00 - [525] Please leave version 2 of the shader in place. This covers a majority of your users out there with computers that are living on borrowed time. Those that will be cut off from EVE by a very old version of shader really need to think if their Pentium 1 really meets their needs anymore. I doubt they could run the latest version of Quicken. Making EVE a single engine client would be better in the long run because we won't have to wait nearly as long for fixes or new content.
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:07:00 - [526] Originally by: John Quicksilver Originally by: Digital Anarchist If you want to force us to use new hardware, at least give us an option to run wireframe graphics. No need to fork and maintain 2 codebases, just the option to strip more graphics stuff if we want to. I would be interested in seeing a wireframe version of EVE. =-=-=-=-=-=- I use to play ELETE both on the C=64 and the Amiga. ELETE being EVEs little brotherwith out the whole MMORPG thing added in. The C=64 was wire frame and totallyplayable,..loved it and the Amiga used color and wireframe graphics,..again totaly playable. BUT!,.... After seeing the graphics in EVE,...why fall back! if it were a matter of porting th egame to the amiga and going to wireframe graphics just to get the MIGGI >AMIGA< to use it,...I would do it, not saying that i would stay there,..but it would be interesting for sure. >R< Someone make it happen!
Riprion Gallente Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:18:00 - [527] Ack. CCP, you suck. Eve runs just fine for what I do right now on my laptop, but that is all going to end right around my birthday. Happy F'ing Birthday to me.
Illwill Bill Svea Rike	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:28:00 - [528] Edited by: Illwill Bill on 14/01/2009 17:32:17 Will this be compatible with PowerUp? While old and slow, I've noted that it's much more stable than WarpOS. EDIT: A 040-version would also work, now that WinUAE has Warp3d-support. Adding a Premium light is good. The considered ditching of SM2 support isn't. While most ppl run EVE on modern hardware, there is a vast ammount of notebooks (including most of the netbooks, which are currently being both manufactured and sold), that are based on the Intel 945 chipset, and there is a lot of people using those systems while travelling and for running second accounts.
Tristan Jay	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:30:00 - [529] I am worried by this, I believe my laptop is sm2 (mobility radeon 9600 graphics says it is) capable but tbh often it seems to struggle with the current classic client. I like many others use this laptop to run on of my other accounts whist my main is on the main pc, I know the suggestion is to move up beyond sm1 atm but the whole talk of moving beyond sm2 l8r this year would in effect force me to consider closing down probably 2 of my accounts as I cannot run more than one client at a time efficiently (and certainly not in fleet fights) on my main computer. CCP need to think this out very closely a lot of people run eve on less than up to date hardware - especially people like myself running more than one account simultaneously or as previously said using work laptops while away. This is a very dangerous step. And tbh I am sure that for the hardcore amongst us the graphics are not what it is about, indeed we often fight with them set to lower levels to avoid lag (yes its still here if better than it was). Changing these requirements will alienate a good number of players who will see (no pun intended) no benefits and ccp will loose accounts over this.
Davendithas	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:34:00 - [530] wow! guys come on here think please... ok CCP is releasing a boxed product in march and yea in order to survive in the current ecconimic climate it has to start cutting back somewhere... so it's ether one client and have more time (which equals money) for the compleation of other eve projects and get support of an increasing player base (which will increase and meet the hardware specs) or continue on and loose money becase of the support of two clients and then loose the extra subscribers due to the inabilty to support them properly. so if you cant afford the upgrade take time off and save so you can upgrade and play simple.

Afk anyway	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:37:00 - [531] First Step ok, Second Step comes to early. My PC is supporting SM3 and i'm still playing with classic client(just using Premium if i get a new ship etc :)). I don't care about eyecandy if the game is fun. But supporting two versions is indeed a reasonable problem. I wonder, do you have the same problems with supporting both SM2 and SM3 (yeah, i have no clue :P)?
King Shrewd	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:42:00 - [532] T3 is customizable is the most stupid idea ive heard in a while. It will completely over complicate this already complicated and multi facted game. Its going to make your average player the joe soap who doesnt emerse themselves in the game every single second and reads eve-lopedia form dawn to dusk, it will make these players leave. they will find the game even harder than it is and leave because of it and it will serve to decrease the active sucriber base. This coupled with the removal of the classic client will result in a huge fall in players in eve. I know you people are trying to improve this and that but my god take a few baby steps and fix the fundamentals instead of adding more crap while at the same time reducing your paying subcriber base!
Katrina Amazon	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:49:00 - [533] Hey Hey HEEEEYYYYYY! WHATS THIS! You know when I first started playing eve I managed to get it to run at 800x600 and even on Classics graphics with everything turned off the game churned, I used to have to move my weapon icons around in a clump to display them all, I did manage to slowly upgrade my machines of course over time, but this happens to be a time of GLOBAL ECONOMIC COLAPSE, and maybe not the best time to have everyone running out to buy high end hard ware, Eve provides much entertainment to the poor, here where they can dream of conquering galaxes while they eat their daily bread and rice, and at the cost of three bags of rice a month, some of us are churning out everything we can already just to stay along side us, also many people have crappy internet conections out in the woods, or austrailia etc, will one pipe line be better for them perhaps? how hard would it be to have an option for ships look like those form starfox on the super nintendo!!!? for those who are graphics challenged!? and imagine the quality of frame rate that would occur in 1000 vs 1000 ship battles, who wants to show up and just get poped by a dooms's day, in two frames!!? Seriously you must be able to display the ships in wire frame mode or something, some of us care nothing about beauty, over survivability and framerate preformance and pew pew and VICTORY! So Go ahead Guys make EVE Just for the Finacial Elite, way to go, my friends on 56 k in Africa are gonna have to resort back to Freelancer and master of orion 2 again Well okey I'm not that blunt usualy so I appologise, but hey gotta make a point I'm thrilled to have modualar ships and T3, even more thrilled to walk around and lounge with my corp mates in station, do your 2.0 and see what happens, I understand as stated your cutting overheads as well and we all got to save cash right? Of course! I know you guys are geniuses and you'll figure out a way to make it work, 0 texture ships, wire frame, or re-instateing 800x600 resolution. heck 640x480!!! should be an option I love big text and eve is making me go blind Come on guys, Let the poor and frame rate obsessed have some real fun with this new patch!!! I know you can do it, I hold my torch as proof you guys always work out the bugs in the end, and it's always been about, letting everyone play, after all, when i first started eve you guys never advertised anywhere,at all at all, now you guys are on washington post, and every weird place I go online! You advertise 250000 players, that 5% is 12500 people, that if they could have Dimond studded pimp cane machines, they would trust me, find out how many of the poor, disabled, unemployed, make up your core gammer base, they log 24/7 and make this world real, nothing worse than logging into a game that advertises 250000 people, and there are only 5000 online So peace out you guys I'm thrilled for this new expansion, on the edge of my seat really and beautiful textures are beautiful textures, but since when did it become hard to make a game look CRAPPY!!! (as an option) Thanks, Yours Truely, Peace! Katrina
Buuba deprutt	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:53:00 - [534] well... I guess that you will have a sudden drop in income when a bunch of us with multiple account can't run eve anymore. One of the reasons why you have a lot of players is just the fact the most computers can run the eve low end version.. I am not interested in fancy graphics, only in the idea of the game and all good friends.. So i think you have to think again for your own sake..
Marcus Arelios Caldari Global Sheep Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:53:00 - [535] I think this is a great idea. While a lot of players will be affected, its a good thing. If by now you don't have a SM2 vid card, then your behind as it is. By winter 2009 SM3 cards will be dirt cheap. I think this is a great thing, because it allows a whole lot more to be done visually for the game and forces people to improve their machines if they are older. If you can afford to spend the monthly fee on the game for sometimes more than 2 accounts, then you can afford a new video card/computer. My main concern is what will be happening with the Linux client? Right now the official linux client....well sucks. I have been unable to get it to operate to levels I find acceptable, while wine runs it great. I would like to see an improved linux client with the premium graphics. I'm sure you guys wouldn't mind rewriting the graphics engine in opengl (dripping with sarcasm).
Flaxley	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:54:00 - [536] well... Before i go and spank some money on a new computer can someone let me know if there is an easy way to tell what level your graphic cards Shadermodel level is. ie SM 2.0? for ref i currently have on:- Mobil intel(r) 945 Express Chipset Chip type = GMA 950 Thanks in advance
Vaerah Vain	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:55:00 - [537] Quote: Can't afford a new laptop- then get a new job, im typing this on my iPod touch. Sorry to dawn this on you, but not everyone is a "white, protestant politically correct" member of the wealthiest country on Earth. If you said this to the mass of unemployed, living off expedients workers here, they'd linch you. Quote: I don't think a game should be put off by a couple of people who say they won't buy new gear. 534 replies (I bet it'll get to 1000) in so little time, out of 50k-ish "real" active players. Knowing how just a very tiny percentage post on the forums, and you have > 1% of the active player base posting in this thread in so little time. You might call it "a couple" but it looks quite representative. Basically shader 1 is fine to go, but killing shader 2 laptops (mine is 2 years old, am I supposed to trash it?) is WAY wrong with this economic conjuncture and considering those with 4-5 alts using old computers are a foundation of the game. I just shelled tons for a new "main" computer (can render shader 4), I don't have the $$$ for also trashing my 2 old full optional HP laptop (GPU-Z says "shader 2" on that laptop => game won't run in Dec 2009).
Killmius	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:57:00 - [538] SM2 video means Office PC's used to change skills at work. They are not upgradeble. Fine! Can we have a little app written by CCP just for changing skills and research/production jobs? Just a liitle Windows app. Without any graphics...
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:59:00 - [539] Edited by: Rex Lashar on 14/01/2009 17:59:00 Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Leeham I hate to disturb the argument here regarding people being excluded but will Premium Light graphically represent prenium or classic? Premium Light will be an "auto-generated SM2 version" of the current Premium art content (which is SM3). Can you please address this comment I made on page 3? If you can autogenerate any quality level from the base assets, shouldn't it be possible to upgrade current Trinity graphics further? I mean, unless you force HDR+AA to ridiculous levels, hardware from the last 2-3 years runs EVE at stupidly high FPS. Originally by: Rex Lashar 2. Don't just downsample the textures for Premium Lite. Upsample them too, and create better normal maps. Some ships in EVE have TERRIBLE normal maps and they look extremely amateurish. Have the graphics settings: - very low (SM2 lo) - low (SM2 hi) - medium (SM3, current Trinity) - high (SM3, upsampled textures and maps) Then in Winter 2009: - low (SM3, downsampled) - medium (SM3, current Trinity) - high (SM3, upsampled textures and maps) To all the laptop users that might be shafted next winter.. 1. CCP should make a decision by March at the latest, so that people have fair warning that it WILL happen. 2. Netbooks are cheap. Netbooks with Nvidia's ION platform (9400 mGPU) would support even DX10. 3. CCP should allow their upcoming Mobile client to run on these laptops, from where you could at least do basic skill changes and corp chat. It would also be suited to lower res screens, and would not need SM2/3 support. But otherwise, please drop SM2 by the end of the year. DirectX9.0c should be the base minimum, so the second client/engine/codepath CCP works on is more advanced than Trinity today and not about legacy support. That's ultimately what it comes down to for me.
Etren Stokk	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:59:00 - [540] I think this is a great idea. The time saved by not having to maintain two separate versions of the client can go into other new developments, speeding up the process of creating, testing, and releasing new features and this is good for everybody, developers and players alike. As hardware improves, software naturally follows suit, improving to take advantage of the increased capabilities of newer hardware. I think most people know this and expect to have to upgrade their computers, or components in their computers, every so often, anyway.

Dracorimus Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:59:00 - [541] Stupid idea IMO Classic is soo much better than the bloated premium, which my system can run fine, but struggles... Keep classic in!
Plundaar Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:06:00 - [542] does this mean that if we prefer to NOT run the premium version because it consistantly crashes our pc's os that we're pretty much hung out to dry? Seriously... thanks for giving us another reason not to play. My main pc couldn't hold premium together with well above all standards of pc requirements and now I'm loosing the classic working version as well?
Callimminniss Prdsk Cyrix Ltd. Tamanium	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:07:00 - [543] I trawled through 13 pages and then got bored, little information quickly turned to lots of pro-con ranting. Can you please sticky some kind of hardware test - I suspect that my current machine is not going to cut it but I'd like to know one way or the other. Thanks
Lex Talion	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:10:00 - [544] Between us; me and the guy sitting at the desk behind me have 10 accounts. We both use laptops to EVE during down moments at work. We would both be forced to cancel our subs if this idea went forwards. Because we can't afford new laptops. Since we just bought new laptops. And they don't support shader 3.
Solanio	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:11:00 - [545] Back in March 2003 I met this girl. For some weeks we played around casually, no strings attached, no cost involved. But than she decided we need to get serious. Lacking better options, I agreed. Nowadays she looks better than back in 2003, but all those visual improvements also forced me to improve myself aswell (gym, regular haircuts, brushing my teeth more often). Today she told me that in the near future she will add further enhancements and if I want to stay with her I need to do something to keep up. Again. I am really getting sick of this. I am perfectly fine with how mediocre we both looked several years ago. And with the lower maintenance costs. Adapt or die I guess.
Immi Feilus	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:13:00 - [546] Forced SM 3.0 means my EVE account goes bye bye. My primary system is my laptop, and I'm not upgrading my laptop to SM3.0 when I can run L4D just fine on this thing as it is. SM 2.0 is fine, 3.0 and you'll lose at least 5 accounts (as my roommates who play eve can only support 2.0 also)
Vir Hellnamin Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:20:00 - [547] CCP: which part of the game needs SM3? Some cool effects that count crap-**** in pew-pew? So it's EVE: Ambulation On-line now? -- V.H. "Entering MH means instant death. It's worse than 0.0. Even the asteroids shoot back." - Alex Harumichi [GRD]
Jaben Fwaer	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:21:00 - [548] I'm running EVE on a HP pav. dv6000 series, and it has a GeForce Go in it, PS 1.3. The laptop is only about a year and a half old, but for some reason, it can run premium on low settings. Wonder if it will still work?
Katrina Amazon	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:22:00 - [549] Oh ya and by the way I'm running 6 accounts on 3 crappy computers, I'm also directly responsable for updating many of my friends skills on top of that who don't have the time as well at all, I'd like to reenforce that eve is about Friends and comunication (BLOB game as one once told me), not fancy Graphics, if people wanted a true pvp with eve, they would insist that you could control your ship with a joy stick, and shoot with the push of a button (not the activation of cycle timers like WOW), I mean I'm deep deep deep into industry, but when i first started playing eve i was like "Double click to move WTF!!??" I was expecting a more freelancer experiance, but if I'm still here having a ball it might be because I play classics graphics with only the LOD option on, everything else is OFF, Explosions, guns etc you name it, OFF!!! I want movement response from my ship not pretty textures before she goes pop! lol OKEY I'll stop blogging now, just I had to re-enforce the good statements brought up by those running multiple, multiple accounts on one or two PC's, I mean they log off and the Corp goes dead, know what I mean? They are the CEO's, insane industrialists, those who run triple support ships, when they log off so do the other 10 members in the corp who look up to them for Security, companionship, and inspiration, if those people go... the corps go dead permanently, thats a chain reaction ineveitable, when people loose their leaders.. Thnks again guys for hearing me out and putting up with so much crap Huggs, and Kisses and Peace! Katirna
Callimminniss Prdsk Cyrix Ltd. Tamanium	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:33:00 - [550] Originally by: rValdez5987 Originally by: Mikalya Originally by: rValdez5987 Its a hobby that you frankly cannot afford. Im sick and tired of people ***ing and trying to stop progress of everything because they are too lazy, too stupid, or lack the control over their own life to take charge, do whats gotta be done, and get a working and up to date box to game on. hardware is dirt cheap, upgrading properly is smart That's it? With this upgrade we get rid of the luddites, the fools and the bone-**ing-idle? Cheers Valdez, I'll upgrade my computer for the sake of a game when I have more money than sense.

KISOGOKU	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:33:00 - [551] wall of text but '' NVidia card (Quadro 110M) '' if you have quadro 110M it has SM 3.0 not sure if we are talking same chip http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-Quadro-NVS-110M.2435.0.html Originally by: Snyder Aringdon So guys like myself, who cannot afford to replace their lappy or upgrade their compy, will sadly but surely leave the world CCP made for us.
Etren Stokk	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:35:00 - [552] Originally by: Marcus Arelios Edited by: Marcus Arelios on 14/01/2009 17:57:35 On a side note after reading more of the posts If you can't afford to spend 50-90 USD on a new video card, maybe you should reconsider spending 15 a month on a game, because if $50 is a problem, then a monthly cost for something you don't really need seems stupid. Also, for those complaining about the economy, if a ton of people went out to spend money on new video cards, it might help some, can't hurt. Every little bit helps. And on a similar point as originally made, if the economy affects you so much that $50 is a problem, then 15 a month should be as well.*** My point, exactly!
Lukas Rox Torchwood Archive	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:40:00 - [553] I see that a lot of people have similar hardware set-up to mine, i.e. modern fast desktop PC and a 2-3 years old laptop with either some integrated ATI or Intel GMA card. While I can perfectly run two clients on my gaming rig (quad core + nv 8800 GTS o/c) I would love to see both accounts at once, instead of alt-tabbing between them. A decision to introduce shader model 3 as the only one supported would force me to buy a new display or a new laptop. I know what you mean CCP, you want to help global economy by creating an artificial need to upgrade our hardware. (my laptop with ati x200 runs classic perfectly well at 30 fps which is just enough for hauling/mission support/scouting) While I will probably go the "dual head" way anyway and buy another LCD display, I understand many people who for various reasons cannot do the same. I cannot imagine myself two years ago, when I was as a student, upgrading my hardware just so it can run Eve. Think twice CCP, is cutting down 3d gfx development costs really worth losing a few percent of players (one set of 3d models and textures instead of two)? --- Visit in game for nice items links http://eve.interkam.pl/eveships
Galanodels	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:44:00 - [554] Looks like I lucked out, my laptop has SM 4.0 Support! Go GeForce 8600M GT. Sorry for those that don't have the required support :(.
Somal Thunder Intergalactic Peace Organization	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:48:00 - [555] ****** What I've said, and ** what everyone else has said, give us an option to run wireframe graphics like some VERY intelligent person suggested! Copy the following into your post to declare support! Quote: [img]http://throstur.110mb.com/images/other/1-day-support2.jpg[/img] I Declare Support to the WIREFRAME GRAPHICS Idea! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Amy Tiels	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:50:00 - [556] Right now I am running a geforce 4200, an athalon proccessor, and 1.5 gig ram on my main computer.. my other computer runs just UNDER minimums but still runs clasic. if we force the player base to upgrade to clasic lite, then we will screw many of them out of eve. I cant even afford the money to fill my gas tank, let alone buy a new GFX card or upgrade more. and forget replacing the laptop. the econemy is horrid in the real world and it is even transfering to eve... less people playing already so the econemy in game is starting to fall off from the decreased demand. If you want premium lite, then great.. release premium lite... just dont kill classic.. leave lite as a third option for people with mid grade systems.. I already have to turn off most effects in missions or I lag out. lite would kill the game for me. if lite is such a help for CCP, then give me 3 months free so I can save up and upgrade my GFX card. then you can save money by NOT losing me... lose 3 months of my time and keep the next few years untill you screw us over again with another mandatory upgrade that I cant afford, or just lose me because you moved past what I can afford. I have recommended my friends to play eve because it doesnt require much for GFX or even internet connection. forcing everyone to upgrade their hardware will ensure one thing.. those with money RL will rule eve.. they will buy isk from GTC selling, they will have the hardware to run massive fleets to move through and conquer everything, and those of use that are struggling to scratcdh by IRL will wind up lagged out the second they try to run a lvl1 mission and easily get over run anytime they go into lowsec or nillsec. keep eve fun for those of us that play. let us see more of the game then a slide show. so what if my ship looks like **. atleast I can fly the damn thing. upgrading the game's GFX will just ensure the gameplay experiance suffers. some people that can play classic at max GFX may be reduced to lesser frame rates and lesser resolutions to run lite and so they will suffer too. increased GFX only means increased strain. this is more then just a comment, this is an open plea.. the players begging you, dont take the game away from us.. dont make eve a game just for those that can afford better systems... what's next after that.. making Vista the only supported OS? then you would lose 50% of your players because no one uses that crap, and it takes such a powerfull computer no one can afford the hardware... step back and look around you. what do you run? how much does it cost to buy it? now look at what your players run.. put a button in the next release of eve to collect and send you the system info for every player who logs in.. make it mandatory to send in the info before you can log in.. hell, make the client do it automaticly on log in.. then look at it.. see what everyone runs... how many players run crappy systems...you can assume that alot of players who run GTCs cant even afford to pay for their account and so will not be able to upgrade computers to run eve. releasing lite would be suicide.. look at what happened when SOE released the "combat upgrade" and the "new game experiance" for star wars galaxies... well over 50% of the players left. they tried to make the game look flashier and make the combat system simpler... in the end they made a mix of WoW and o**er strike and everyone hated it. you are on the same road.. lite will only force people to quit eve from lack of hardware to run it. mabey you all have stock in ATI or Nvidia, but many of us can bearly afford to live because of the econemy IRL. I cant afford luxeries like a new GFX card. I am TRYING to save up to buy myself a whole new computer... but that wont be for atleast a year. mabey two. You should feel pretty good about yourselfs now.. you have done what WoW cant.. you have forced your players to BEG for the right to play the game.. because you have forced us to beg you not to change it so that we CANT.
Topminer1980 Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:52:00 - [557] Edited by: Topminer1980 on 14/01/2009 18:53:27 I've just finished checking the intel website, my intergrated card supports version 4.0, however, i'd still prefer the focus to be on game play raher than eyecandy. I urge CCP to consider enabling a very simple 1 click option on the esc menu, that would enable customers to specify what graphics quality they prefer. I wouldn't go as far as suggesting wire frame, but a very low quality option, even for modern machines, would interest me. maybe many others too Thanks for reading. edit:Wow that wall of text up there ^^^^^ just made my eyes bleed
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:54:00 - [558] for me, and i think for a large majority of the playerbase, this game isnt about shallow pretty planets, or cool effects from pew. when 80% or so of player TURN OFF content to increase framerate during fights, you know that graphics is not a top priority, CCP should get thier priorities in line with the players, 2.0, fine i can run that but you will still lose a large player base, if 3.0 comes out im keeping my $30 a month, i cant afford to but another computer
Bibi Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:57:00 - [559] CCP! I guess you forget about all people that run multiple accounts at the same time or ??? I can run a premium client with my computer but what about 2-3 accounts running at the same time on the same computer after your little "Premium Lite" version hits!!??? Eve is a slow game, most stuff you do in game takes a VERY long time to do... a specially the isk making. Alot of people have multiple accounts in eve for that reason alone that they also run at the same time on the same computer! now if that stops working when the new client comes then what? Obviously it will be more expensive to upgrade for those that run 3 accounts at the same time now and need to upgrade so its playable with 3 accounts even when the new "Premium Lite" version comes. I can only speak for myself but there are limits in what I spend just to be able to play a computer game! even if I love it alot, and been a subscriber for 5 years... Premium client has been around for a longtime now so its seems very strange that It just now starts to trouble you so much that you need to remove the classic version of eve in order to focus eveyrhing on the premium version... But the worst thing is your announcement timing about this upgrade worst economic crisis in many many years and your telling people that they might need to upgrade hardware in their computers in about 3 months. If they want to continue playing a GAME!!! Thats good management and good public relations! Congrats ccp I guess Island never got hit by the economic crisis or did they?
Lukas Rox Torchwood Archive	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:02:00 - [560] Quote: I guess Island never got hit by the economic crisis or did they? Shocked Iceland has actually been hit quite hard :/ The real ISK (Iceland Krona) got literally smashed by the crisis :(

gerbiless	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:03:00 - [561] Originally by: Lukas Rox Quote: I guess Island never got hit by the economic crisis or did they? Shocked Iceland has actually been hit quite hard :/ The real ISK (Iceland Krona) got literally smashed by the crisis :( irony... ;)
Burn Cycle Omega Engineering Inc. Imperial Defense Coalition	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:05:00 - [562] Originally by: Andrue If we could just render the inside of a station with environment loading disabled it would be useful. That way people relying on slightly crappy laptops can still chat to friends from their hotel room and change skills. This is a massive deal to me - I travel quite alot and when doing so, take my trusty MacBook with me (with an Intel GMA950 graphics chipset, that interestingly won't run EVE when booted into Vista, but will under OS X). Phasing out support for these older standards will force me into a position where I cannot update my skills whilst on the road, thus losing training time. If this is defiantly going to happen, then CCP should consider a compomise to those of us who will be affected; implementing the much hankered after queuing of skills, or releasing a client that enables say chat, skills and perhaps markets only (and to see that on a mobile phone, well we can dream can we not...)
Etren Stokk Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:05:00 - [563] Edited by: Etren Stokk on 14/01/2009 19:05:42 Originally by: Bibi I guess Island never got hit by the economic crisis or did they? Actually, Iceland suffered as well, possibly even more than most - they were right on the edge of total financial collapse there for a while. Due to their smaller economy, they feel global changes much more than the U.S. and the U.K. Just make your point, don't be a d**k.
gerbiless	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:10:00 - [564] It is very strange that you come with this "improvement" at this time.. I guess that you as all other companies want to make your "iskies" as most others, but this is way wrong. I guess that I can say that i talk for many of us, when i say that it is the idea of the game that really makes us play.. as you've already seen, many of us also uses laptops that we can bring where ever we go just to play this wonderful game..;) don't take that away from us.. let there be a low end version that can be used by "old" computers, and you will still have a faithful group of players who will whine a bit sometimes but still pay the fee for 4 -5 accounts... and i guess that it is what matters in the long run... ;)
Bibi Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:11:00 - [565] Edited by: Bibi on 14/01/2009 19:12:44 yes I know Island got hit the worst of all of the European countries thats why its even LESS understandable that ccp announce something like this at this time that has to do with people spending even more money to be able to play their computer game!! WTF is that ?
Somal Thunder Intergalactic Peace Organization	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:17:00 - [566] Originally by: Bibi Edited by: Bibi on 14/01/2009 19:12:44 yes I know Island got hit the worst of all of the European countries thats why its even LESS understandable that ccp announce something like this at this time that has to do with people spending even more money to be able to play their computer game!! WTF is that ? It's more economic for CCP to just have to pay for the development of one client instead of two.
gerbiless	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:19:00 - [567] Edited by: gerbiless on 14/01/2009 19:20:32 Originally by: Somal Thunder Originally by: Bibi Edited by: Bibi on 14/01/2009 19:12:44 yes I know Island got hit the worst of all of the European countries thats why its even LESS understandable that ccp announce something like this at this time that has to do with people spending even more money to be able to play their computer game!! WTF is that ? It's more economic for CCP to just have to pay for the development of one client instead of two. That is both true and not.. IF you loose income it will NOT be profitable.. But that is obvious, is'nt it.. ;)
Ted Grayham Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:19:00 - [568] Originally by: Somal Thunder Originally by: Bibi Edited by: Bibi on 14/01/2009 19:12:44 yes I know Island got hit the worst of all of the European countries thats why its even LESS understandable that ccp announce something like this at this time that has to do with people spending even more money to be able to play their computer game!! WTF is that ? It's more economic for CCP to just have to pay for the development of one client instead of two. This, and the fact that a cheap videocard with SM2 or even 3 support costs VERY little. If you can't afford it, you probably don't really afford EVE in the first place. That's just how it is with a platform in constant development, such as the PC. Some things grow too old, and you can't expect everyone to wait for you to catch up.
gerbiless	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:22:00 - [569] Originally by: Ted Grayham Originally by: Somal Thunder Originally by: Bibi Edited by: Bibi on 14/01/2009 19:12:44 yes I know Island got hit the worst of all of the European countries thats why its even LESS understandable that ccp announce something like this at this time that has to do with people spending even more money to be able to play their computer game!! WTF is that ? It's more economic for CCP to just have to pay for the development of one client instead of two. This, and the fact that a cheap videocard with SM2 or even 3 support costs VERY little. If you can't afford it, you probably don't really afford EVE in the first place. That's just how it is with a platform in constant development, such as the PC. Some things grow too old, and you can't expect everyone to wait for you to catch up. Where on theese pages did you miss that many of us are playing on laptops?
Etren Stokk Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:25:00 - [570] Edited by: Etren Stokk on 14/01/2009 19:25:02 Originally by: gerbiless Where on theese pages did you miss that many of us are playing on laptops? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=971997&page=18#539

Scilent Enigma Minmatar Vae Victis Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:25:00 - [571] the idea is understandable, but since the gfx card in my laptop only supports shader 2.0 it would mean that by the winter next year (if I don't manage get a new computer by then) I won't be able to play EVE. TBH, from a work perspective for CCP I can fully understand discontinuing the classic client content. Though I'm hoping you make the Premium Lite version even more streamlined than the classic one.
Ted Grayham Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:27:00 - [572] Originally by: gerbiless Where on theese pages did you miss that many of us are playing on laptops? Most. Though it's the same story there, really. If it's a laptop remotely developed to at least have a concept of games, it probably supports SM2. If not, I'm sorry, but I'm still glad they're moving on, ensuring more and better content in the future.
gerbiless	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:28:00 - [573] Take me for an example... I have 4 accounts that i happily pay for every month, and I always take my laptop with me where ever I go. I ALWAYS play eve... (oki.. a bit ******ed, but hey! ) If I have to buy a new computer, I won't be able to play this game anymore.. and that is hard cash from just one person..
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:28:00 - [574] Originally by: Ted Grayham Originally by: Somal Thunder Originally by: Bibi Edited by: Bibi on 14/01/2009 19:12:44 yes I know Island got hit the worst of all of the European countries thats why its even LESS understandable that ccp announce something like this at this time that has to do with people spending even more money to be able to play their computer game!! WTF is that ? It's more economic for CCP to just have to pay for the development of one client instead of two. This, and the fact that a cheap videocard with SM2 or even 3 support costs VERY little. If you can't afford it, you probably don't really afford EVE in the first place. That's just how it is with a platform in constant development, such as the PC. Some things grow too old, and you can't expect everyone to wait for you to catch up. So you can quarantee that simple GFX card purchase will enable keep on running 5 clients on said machine? Don't be a tool, fool. There is great variety of reasons out there for people and their hardware to be alarmed about this. -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval
Bibi Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:30:00 - [575] OH yes I know you think that!! what if people stop playing the game instead of upgrading ??? its not that hard to add and up and understand how the RL works People need to eat and pay their bills and extra stuff such as eve comes second in bad times what do you really think people do cut subscription to a computer game or cut their milk,food expences. That can have a nasty effect on eve as well so there is NO room for stupid announcements that say oh HEY you need to upgrade your computer to continue play our game maybe... that not clever to tell subscribers that has to eat like the rest of the RL word!!
Grismar Gallente The Establishment	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:31:00 - [576] Adding another voice to the choir: I wasn't exactly planning on upgrading the box that runs my second account, whenever I use them concurrently. That box does what it needs to do just fine and I suppose getting rid of the second account will be good for my bank balance too... So, I guess thanks in advance, CPP :) Fly well and have fun, Grismar. Your EVE IGB home: EVE Wiki, Explorer, Navigator
gerbiless	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:32:00 - [577] Originally by: Ted Grayham Originally by: gerbiless Where on theese pages did you miss that many of us are playing on laptops? Most. Though it's the same story there, really. If it's a laptop remotely developed to at least have a concept of games, it probably supports SM2. If not, I'm sorry, but I'm still glad they're moving on, ensuring more and better content in the future. "Moving on??" .. why not get things fixed before moving on... ;)
Ted Grayham Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:32:00 - [578] Originally by: Gner Dechast So you can quarantee that simple GFX card purchase will enable keep on running 5 clients on said machine? Don't be a tool, fool. There is great variety of reasons out there for people and their hardware to be alarmed about this. (Tool, fool? shrug) I can guarantee that if you do a bit of research (ie. at http://www.tomshardware.com/us/#redir) you'll find something that can. Especially if you turn the graphics down, which you do with classic anyway.
gerbiless	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:35:00 - [579] Originally by: Bibi OH yes I know you think that!! what if people stop playing the game instead of upgrading ??? its not that hard to add and up and understand how the RL works People need to eat and pay their bills and extra stuff such as eve comes second in bad times what do you really think people do cut subscription to a computer game or cut their milk,food expences. That can have a nasty effect on eve as well so there is NO room for stupid announcements that say oh HEY you need to upgrade your computer to continue play our game maybe... that not clever to tell subscribers that has to eat like the rest of the RL word!! Agree totally...
gerbiless	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:40:00 - [580] Edited by: gerbiless on 14/01/2009 19:40:31 This is a it like...hmm.. Okay.. I'm a chef irl. well. the economy is bad so we raises the price on our meals... that sounds right? ;)

Pichonsita Caldari FILTHY MINKY CORP	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:41:00 - [581] im aware of this graficc expancion turning clasic to the trash and giving this momentarly "lite" premium client so far so good, the requeriments for this one are cheap to acomplish if someone wants to play eve but then puting only full premium grafics on? come on? if thats so i will cancel my subscription right now. many countrys (specially latin amaericans, im from Argentina) have their country whit the dolar devaluated, and only rich ppl have acces to last grafic technology, is not fair for us, iw as paying the game for 2 years and now u guys are telling "upgraded it or be fuked up?". if u want an upgrade jsut turn off clasic put little premium on, and run both. i saw the blog, u think 3%-5% ppl will ahve all their comps upgraded for winter of this year? u are damm wrong! how many ppl run clasic when they can run premium because they got faster gameplay? u think thats gona help? if u do that, (im sure of what im gona say now), ppl wills tart complaying that large scale fleets are freaking laggy, jita would be hell in earth. so yea, all to shiny, beatifull. but i cant run it, so how we go for that ppl? just fuk em up? no more to say. I cant upgrade my computer, i just buyed more ram for my comp (now i got 1gb) and cost me a lot of money here. put urself on my situation, u think i can spent 100 dolars + per month? when the money (for example) here is 1 dolar = $3.50 of local money (pesos)? think about that when u guys go sleep, specially the devs. some ppl can others cant, why not find a solution for all, and not a solution for somes?
Rufus MacMaranth Gallente Shadow Front	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:42:00 - [582] I have to add my voice against SM 3.0 only at the end of the year. SM 2.0 I can live with (Dell laptop user here, so upgrading the GFX card to support SM3.0 is not necessarily an option.) Discontinuing support for hardware that is less than 5 years old is just dumb. We are not all in a position to rush out and buy a new PC before Christmas this year just to play EVE. I don't expect CCP to forcibly discontinue my EVE gaming experience with less than 12 months notice for reasons that are internal to their development. At least if I was playing a single player boxed game I could still play the old game and not just buy the new one, but no .. this would stop me playing at all. Not good. The current recommended specifications for the game do not even require SM3.0 so, wtf, if someone started playing today you may be stopping them playing by the end of the year. wtg.
farfrael Freelancer Union Unaffiliated	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:43:00 - [583] linux, linux, linux, linux ... ? How long are you going to ignore the question CCP? If you are going to drop support JUST ****ING SAY IT!
gerbiless	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:51:00 - [584] This starts to become a "taking a dump in your own glove thing".. Reconsider...
Alun Flynn	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:54:00 - [585] Can do SM2. Can't do SM3. Laptop.
durebel1	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:00:00 - [586] EVE needs to keep support for some of the older hardware so that people that cant afford the upgrade can still play the game, but when you look at the user base, I would guess that there are only a small percent of people that have a true high end computers to play EVE on and much less can afford it.
Bibi Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:00:00 - [587] Ted Grayham If I got enough money to play this game or not its not really intresting facts here Ted please dont type any more Ted I dont discuss with character like you... your to smart for me...
Straight Chillen Gallente The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:00:00 - [588] I really think CCP should do a hardware survey before they roll this out. I think the results would clarify the impact of this change. I for one see CCP losing more in revenue, then they will be saving by working on one client.
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:01:00 - [589] Originally by: farfrael linux, linux, linux, linux ... ? How long are you going to ignore the question CCP? If you are going to drop support JUST ****ING SAY IT! They won't. IIRC "Windows, Linux, Mac" will be listed on the boxed version of Apocrypha.
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:06:00 - [590] Originally by: Straight Chillen I really think CCP should do a hardware survey before they roll this out. I think the results would clarify the impact of this change. I for one see CCP losing more in revenue, then they will be saving by working on one client. Ofcourse doing mere hardware survey would make the faulty assumption that everyone with capable machine would be willing to use the premium client... But like with majority of your posts here and elsewhere, I tend to agree with you - CCP should do a fact finding mission, because they can and it's the right thing to do. I repeat myself - minor update to the client and it sends you userID and classic/premium identifier (+is/is not premium capable) each time a logon is made. Not only does it give results for all those that were active during the statistics period, but it also gives other useful bits of information.

Ismern GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:06:00 - [591] I, for one, have an older computer and no money to replace it. This change will prohibit me from playing EVE and probably make me cancel my account.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:07:00 - [592] Originally by: Kaya Divine "making ShaderModel 2 (GeForce FX (5 series) or ATi R300 series cards or compatible) the minimum requirement and discontinue the "Classic client" version of EVE, replacing it with "Premium Lite"" Yet another CCP failure. I do hope that you will get alot of new players, because you will for sure lose huge chunk. Not so much. I found the blog to be very forthcoming and reasonable. Announcing changes that make sense and even asking for feedback is hardly a failure. A failure would be to just do it and let people suck it up.
Ted Grayham Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:07:00 - [593] Originally by: Bibi Ted Grayham If I got enough money to play this game or not its not really intresting facts here Ted please dont type any more Ted I dont discuss with character like you... your to smart for me... I'm glad we agree.
Professor Dumbledore Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:11:00 - [594] This is ******ed you have to run the classic client if you want to multibox and you have to by you own stupid game mechanics so this new client better be as low resources as your current classic client or people will unsub in droves. This is your warning.
Wardo21	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:26:00 - [595] I haven't read all 20 pages, but whats the difference between the classic and premium lite if all you're changing is the shader model. (That's probably not the only change, but it will likely render my second box obsolete for Eve.) Keep it classic version (with new and improved shader model 3!, or is it 2?). 99% of the time, I'm so far zoomed out away from my ship I don't see any shading or skins from my ship or any other. (Unless they pass in front of the camera's origin.) I would rather have standard simple symbols (brackets only) to represent the ships and other objects sometimes. Rather than the rendered image backgrounds that win so many awards but are so hard on the eyes. The reddish orange cloud backdrop in Venilen is making my eyes water some nights. It also makes the UI hard to discern in many cases. Not enough contrast between the bright background and the white lettering.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:32:00 - [596] Originally by: Somal Thunder It's more economic for CCP to just have to pay for the development of one client instead of two. If CCP only lose 5% of their playerbase who can't upgrade, that's over $2mil per year. That is a lot of Dev hours you can no longer afford. If it is more hours than are dedicated to maintaining the Classic client it will have to impact elsewhere also.
Elnar Khad Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:33:00 - [597] Edited by: Elnar Khad on 14/01/2009 20:34:08 I'll add my vote for not removing shader model 2.0 support. I play both my accounts on my laptop, which has an imbedded Intel 945GM card. If I can't play the game using my computer, I'll have to leave. Alot of us aren't going to be able to afford hardware upgrades (in the case of laptops, replacements) to feed our Eve habits. Thanks for a great game! (edited for spelling)
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:34:00 - [598] OMG! NOOOOO your going to get rid of the quafe station FOREVER YOU SICK EVIL BASTARDS!
Professor Dumbledore Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:35:00 - [599] Id' rather them throw away the fancy ****ty graphics no one cares what the game looks like just so long as it plays you idiots.
LordRyan77 Gallente Ooops Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:43:00 - [600] My main PC is just over 2 years old but has no problem running 4 premium clients. I bought a used PC a couple of months since CCP lives in the dark ages and does not support Dual screens. The used PC had a hard time running classic. So I run 3 client(premium) on the main and 1 on the other(classic) to monitor chat and set training skills. I don't know anything about SM1,2 or 3. If I can't use the second PC fine, I'll just drop 2 accounts. But if I can't run premium on main I'm dropping all. My main is a media center. Even though its 2 years old it seems to out preform most people's PCs. So I guess I need to find out which sm I am! Forget all this where is my dual monitor support?

Clare Starblaze	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:46:00 - [601] lets look at the sm 2 requirement first folks, most havent read all the pages but the deves obviously have been as they seem to indicate that they may be willing to reschedual/rethink the module 3 requirement from some of the posts theyve put up, so before crying about next december, lets look at march :) honestly my family's got a 6-7 year old pc thats capable of sm 2 and 99% are capable of at least that much, if not well... im sorry but if your not you might want to think about a new pc. I do agree that there needs to be a way to lower graphics requirements though, mainly because sometimes my wireless connection cannot keep up with the data flow :( and lower graphics would net me much better performance, but having 2 full clients is a resource drain, they need to stick with one or the other, and sorry classic fans premium won. Hopefully though ccp will rethink its sm 3 reqs in december, seeing as many still use them, but thats a long ways away and there are far more issues between now and then atm.
Etren Stokk Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:48:00 - [602] Originally by: Professor Dumbledore Id' rather them throw away the fancy ****ty graphics no one cares what the game looks like just so long as it plays you idiots. If that's true, why don't you just play text based games or even live action role play? Graphics matter. It's why they're called "video" games.
Hiro Nacatomy	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:50:00 - [603] Hey all, I understand from a business perspective that there is a lot to maintain, however please flip the coin and look at the chain effect. I have 3 alts that i like to run at the same time, and do so by two pc's split monitor setup, I also have an awsome computer setup with a 788 mb card. The problem is that there is just way tooo much lag on premo when i do this. Classic should be maintained, you created the dragon, and now you need to feed him. Now that i have gotten accustomed to paying for 3 active accounts and CCP is accustomed to taking my cash for it. You should keep Classic.
Clare Starblaze	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:50:00 - [604] Originally by: Etren Stokk Originally by: Professor Dumbledore Id' rather them throw away the fancy ****ty graphics no one cares what the game looks like just so long as it plays you idiots. If that's true, why don't you just play text based games or even live action role play? Graphics matter. It's why they're called "video" games. this
Brainless Bimbo Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:50:00 - [605] Originally by: Digital Anarchist If you want to force us to use new hardware, at least give us an option to run wireframe graphics. No need to fork and maintain 2 codebases, just the option to strip more graphics stuff if we want to. oh... brings back memories of 1989 and elite on my pc.....
Girabaldi D'Protagonist Minmatar In Theory.	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:52:00 - [606] Edited by: Girabaldi D''Protagonist on 14/01/2009 20:53:27 Ok for all of the people that can't play after March 10, can you please contract all of your stuff to me before you go.. will probably take me a while to go around the galaxy to pick it all up.. but hey, I'll do it.. Heck if enough do it.. I can survive off of Time Codes for quite a while.. huh? huh? So just make those contracts out to me.. or my corp and we will be happy to come aroudn and pick it up.. then at least you won't have to worry about all that stuff going to waste in a hanger that you can't log into anymore.. Thank you for your support.. Oh man I remember elite.. that was the bomb.. was awesome.. hell why don't we just make a text based version.. huh huh? .. I shoot my 125mm Scout at XXXXXX. XXXXXX deftly slides away resulting in zero damamge.. Hahahahahahahaha
Etren Stokk Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:52:00 - [607] Originally by: Girabaldi D'Protagonist Ok for all of the people that can't play after March 10, can you please contract all of your stuff to me before you go.. will probably take me a while to go around the galaxy to pick it all up.. but hey, I'll do it.. Heck if enough do it.. I can survive off of Time Codes for quite a while.. huh? huh? So just make those contracts out to me.. or my corp and we will be happy to come aroudn and pick it up.. then at least you won't have to worry about all that stuff going to waste in a hanger that you can't log into anymore.. Thank you for your support.. Shameless opportunist! I love it!
Clare Starblaze	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:55:00 - [608] Originally by: Hiro Nacatomy Hey all, I understand from a business perspective that there is a lot to maintain, however please flip the coin and look at the chain effect. I have 3 alts that i like to run at the same time, and do so by two pc's split monitor setup, I also have an awsome computer setup with a 788 mb card. The problem is that there is just way tooo much lag on premo when i do this. Classic should be maintained, you created the dragon, and now you need to feed him. Now that i have gotten accustomed to paying for 3 active accounts and CCP is accustomed to taking my cash for it. You should keep Classic. problem just is the resource usage for 2 clients, not only dev support but phisical computing assets needed as well. it costs less computing assets for ccp to put us on one client rather than two, thus netting more free resources for there servers to dedicate out during peak periods. I do agree that the frame rate using premium graphics is a little low, but the lite style graphics is supposed to help with this without tying up large amounts of additional resources on ccps part. and like has been said befor most developers are saying that needing to support sm 1 is holding them back, so they have decided not to do so anymore, and ccp should do so as well to furthur their own development.
Imaos	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:01:00 - [609] Originally by: Etren Stokk Originally by: Girabaldi D'Protagonist Ok for all of the people that can't play after March 10, can you please contract all of your stuff to me before you go.. will probably take me a while to go around the galaxy to pick it all up.. but hey, I'll do it.. Heck if enough do it.. I can survive off of Time Codes for quite a while.. huh? huh? So just make those contracts out to me.. or my corp and we will be happy to come aroudn and pick it up.. then at least you won't have to worry about all that stuff going to waste in a hanger that you can't log into anymore.. Thank you for your support.. Shameless opportunist! I love it! Garibaldi D'Protagonist was already taken? Back to topic. The real nice aspect of EvE is that I can play the game while not at my desktop. I don't intend to upgrade my notebook, because EvE would be the only reason, too. March wont be my problem, but the next step with model 3 would break it. So I guess there will be some long skills and breaks incoming. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Daelorn Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:01:00 - [610] Originally by: Hiro Nacatomy Hey all, I understand from a business perspective that there is a lot to maintain, however please flip the coin and look at the chain effect. I have 3 alts that i like to run at the same time, and do so by two pc's split monitor setup, I also have an awsome computer setup with a 788 mb card. The problem is that there is just way tooo much lag on premo when i do this. Classic should be maintained, you created the dragon, and now you need to feed him. Now that i have gotten accustomed to paying for 3 active accounts and CCP is accustomed to taking my cash for it. You should keep Classic. Looks like your video card isn't so awesome then.

Etren Stokk Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:06:00 - [611] Maybe we should just get rid of graphics and just have a text only version and a wireframe version. This way, everyone can play Eve even decades from now on any kind of networked device!
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:09:00 - [612] Originally by: Clare Starblaze Originally by: Hiro Nacatomy Hey all, I understand from a business perspective that there is a lot to maintain, however please flip the coin and look at the chain effect. I have 3 alts that i like to run at the same time, and do so by two pc's split monitor setup, I also have an awsome computer setup with a 788 mb card. The problem is that there is just way tooo much lag on premo when i do this. Classic should be maintained, you created the dragon, and now you need to feed him. Now that i have gotten accustomed to paying for 3 active accounts and CCP is accustomed to taking my cash for it. You should keep Classic. problem just is the resource usage for 2 clients, not only dev support but phisical computing assets needed as well. it costs less computing assets for ccp to put us on one client rather than two, thus netting more free resources for there servers to dedicate out during peak periods. I do agree that the frame rate using premium graphics is a little low, but the lite style graphics is supposed to help with this without tying up large amounts of additional resources on ccps part. and like has been said befor most developers are saying that needing to support sm 1 is holding them back, so they have decided not to do so anymore, and ccp should do so as well to furthur their own development. The servers farm out the same info to all clients. Also, Shader Models do not currently hold CCP back because they have two seperate clients. When they have one client, then shader models will be a restriction to development. The whole idea just seems silly, so I guess there must be another factor that they haven't told us about. Throwing away $2mil in revenue per year just so you can reduce your potential subscriber base .. doesn't that sound odd to anyone? Premium can stride ahead already, because people have Classic to fall back on. I don't care if Classic looks "old" .. in fact I would like the alternate scanline rendering back too, that looked awesome. We don't want CCP to make Classic like Premium, we just want to be able to continue to log on and play the game we love. I couldn't care less if Classic won't have ambulation, I don't need it. I just want to be able to take my laptop with me knowing I can log on and enjoy Eve where ever I may be. The clients are both just different frontends to the same data and tasks - there is no need to remove one of them, and keeping them both is better for the community. CCP can still develop the new Premium version, and maintain classic - they just don't want to. If it was judt about cost or development time, they wouldn't be throwing away $200,000 per month.
Scojo27	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:10:00 - [613] I have yet to see any one talk or even discuss the current changes of the classic client to the premium lite version. While I know its more work and the thoughts are that this is done to reduce work load. So you have more time to work on content. I think there will be more than just 3-5% people affected by this change. Most users I know in RL that play this game are on laptops. I myself I have both laptop and desktop and play eve mostly on my laptop. This change will basically subject me to my desktop only and reduce the time I have to play this game. To me the fact there will be more content but I wonÆt have time to play means nothing to me. Its one thing to get the basic client up to speed but you are changing it then pre-warning us that your even going to rise the requirements in what sounds like less than 6 months. From what I have seen the average laptop life span is about 2-3 years and with the increase of laptop sales to desktop I would say most users are possible half way thur that cycle. I will say I use a more low end laptop and I guess I would upgrade but its unlikely I will. So it leaves with one question do I want to hold to pay a game till dec when I wonÆt be able to play
Wathoom	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:12:00 - [614] I see some concernes here. I'm using linux to run premium client under wine. As far as i know premium graphics is not supported with official linux client. Would that leave linux users without official client because some cards are not supported like (ATI) or would it finaly bring premium content to us? Do you plan to release native linux client? Also removing shader2.0 cards by the end of year would be too fast. You should leave it for another year or two.
Milla Jovo	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:15:00 - [615] there is a dusty old box on my shelf that says C&C Generals,, I can still play that. Look I have 4 teenagers in my house. 2 of them and I play eve with 4 accounts. Only one of our pc's has a pcie slot witch i bought a video card for 2 months ago. I got the cheapest one for about 80 USD. now I need to get another one, I was going to try to update just one of my other pc's in Febuary,the others have agp slots. I am self employed in a shrinking economy. there is no way i can go out and buy a bunch of new hard ware for my pc's. Why should i even log into the game anymore if after 60 days i can't run it anymore? This is going to be bad news for my kids. CCP this is what is called "Bad Form"
Etren Stokk Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:16:00 - [616] Originally by: Wathoom Also removing shader2.0 cards by the end of year would be too fast. You should leave it for another year or two. One thing I can agree with is that the timing seems too quick. I think they should give it a year or two to sink in before taking that next step after introducing Premium Lite.
ordietrying	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:23:00 - [617] I am not a specialist of video programming, but there must be some way to completely disable shaders.This way people would be able play on an ultra light version, pretty ugly but high performance without any significant programming or regression testing work needed.
clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:24:00 - [618] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Leeham I hate to disturb the argument here regarding people being excluded but will Premium Light graphically represent prenium or classic? Premium Light will be an "auto-generated SM2 version" of the current Premium art content (which is SM3). Then what benefit does dropping this Auto-generated SM2 version give CCP, as opposed to loosing 3-5% playerbase (according to 'What we don't know is exactly how many. We estimate..' We further predict ..) numbers. Why develop Premium lite if its canned 9 months down the line. Logic.. where is it.. show it to us.
zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:28:00 - [619] PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DONT DISCONTINUE SHADER MODEL 2 i just bought a netbook i use it to switch skills while on the run and play the market. it has onboard graphics and only does shader model 2. i`d be really upset to loose the use of it. also frankly i think premium client still needs some work i have a quad core 2.6mhz processor and BFG GeForce GTX 280 1GB graphics card ran under windows vista at home, and i still get noticable lag running 4 clients ( not much but its there compared to classic ). last time i couldnt run all my account at once i just stopped paying for 2. most people i know run at least 2 accounts some run as many as 12 ( more people than u would guess). saying that only 5% of customers will be affected is rubbish. true 5% may not have the minium specs but as most are using multiple cliets alot more are actually affected.
Etren Stokk Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:28:00 - [620] Edited by: Etren Stokk on 14/01/2009 21:30:19 Edited by: Etren Stokk on 14/01/2009 21:29:10 Quote: Premium Lite will only require ShaderModel 2.0 hardware, and far less texture memory than the current Premium, ensuring good framerates on older hardware. We won't stop there - we are providing two flavors of ShaderModel 2.0 compatible shaders, currently named "lo" and "hi". What does this mean? It means that framerate enthusiasts can get even more performance when running under ShaderModel 2.0. We will also allow people to select any ShaderModel below what their hardware supports - thus allowing players to trade quality for performance and vice versa. Quote: To summarize: older hardware will use the same assets as Premium - they just won't look as detailed and shiny. Quote: Step 1: In Apocrypha, March 10th, we discontinue support for ShaderModel 1, making ShaderModel 2 (GeForce FX (5 series) or ATi R300 series cards or compatible) the minimum requirement and discontinue the "Classic client" version of EVE, replacing it with "Premium Lite" Quote: Step 2: In the Winter Expansion 2009 we are considering discontinuing support for ShaderModel 2 and make the minimum specification ShaderModel 3 Okay, why can't you implement step 1, which even low end graphics should still be able to handle, even if they have to use the 'lo' setting and select a shadermodel that's "below what their hardware supports", and then simply modify step 2 to discontinue support for ShaderModel 2 in Premium only, leaving Premium Lite alone? Is that a technically feasible compromise?

Pichonsita Caldari FILTHY MINKY CORP	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:30:00 - [621] Originally by: clone 1 Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Leeham I hate to disturb the argument here regarding people being excluded but will Premium Light graphically represent prenium or classic? Premium Light will be an "auto-generated SM2 version" of the current Premium art content (which is SM3). Then what benefit does dropping this Auto-generated SM2 version give CCP, as opposed to loosing 3-5% playerbase (according to 'What we don't know is exactly how many. We estimate..' We further predict ..) numbers. Why develop Premium lite if its canned 9 months down the line. Logic.. where is it.. show it to us. they got little time for cofee break so they need more time for it, and that means less work to do, so they have to merge all in one and fuk all
M'ing Pai The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:38:00 - [622] To all who will be leaving in December: Your Stuff? Can I have? Gimmeh.
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:39:00 - [623] Originally by: Avon I couldn't care less if Classic won't have ambulation, I don't need it. Could this be the real reason, not wanting to do ambulation models etc. twice? I for one would also gladly accept no WiS and to keep classic. -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval
Psycho Lordling GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:49:00 - [624] Edited by: Psycho Lordling on 14/01/2009 21:50:43 Originally by: Avon The servers farm out the same info to all clients. Also, Shader Models do not currently hold CCP back because they have two seperate clients. When they have one client, then shader models will be a restriction to development. The whole idea just seems silly, so I guess there must be another factor that they haven't told us about. Throwing away $2mil in revenue per year just so you can reduce your potential subscriber base .. doesn't that sound odd to anyone? Premium can stride ahead already, because people have Classic to fall back on. I don't care if Classic looks "old" .. in fact I would like the alternate scanline rendering back too, that looked awesome. We don't want CCP to make Classic like Premium, we just want to be able to continue to log on and play the game we love. I couldn't care less if Classic won't have ambulation, I don't need it. I just want to be able to take my laptop with me knowing I can log on and enjoy Eve where ever I may be. The clients are both just different frontends to the same data and tasks - there is no need to remove one of them, and keeping them both is better for the community. CCP can still develop the new Premium version, and maintain classic - they just don't want to. If it was judt about cost or development time, they wouldn't be throwing away $200,000 per month. so... I can on my 7 month old computer run 2 premium clients for 30 min before it crash or 5 clasic's from DT to DT... I turned off sound in 2004 and I never missed it. **** graphichs, fix lag. :condi: Even BOB gets this :ccp:
mattimus9	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:55:00 - [625] i don't understand why you people are getting all annoyed? to run an amazing game on a graphics technology now 7yrs old is amazing. they say that most computers should be replaced after 4yrs due to technology upgrades. to run any new game on a computer that old is always a struggle and CCP have to upgrade in the end otherwise EVE will become obsolete as other games improve. I won't be able to use my laptop but luckily I have a PC and a new PC to be able to take version 3 you can get for about ú400 so maybe its time for you to upgrade!!!
mattimus9	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:58:00 - [626] Originally by: M'ing Pai To all who will be leaving in December: Your Stuff? Can I have? Gimmeh. lol! is shot gun all gallente stuff!!!
Stradiot Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:05:00 - [627] Edited by: Stradiot on 14/01/2009 22:05:33 I'm on a laptop with shader 2.0 support so I'll be able to switch from Classic to Premium Lite but I can't use Premium. The change in March 2009 won't stop me from playing Eve but if CCP decides to drop shader 2.0 support in Winter 2009 they can kiss me goodbye. P.S. CCP, please don't drop support for shader 2.0
T92M Disturbing tha Peace	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:07:00 - [628] "They" say that so they get more money. Looks like my laptops out the window
Pichonsita Caldari FILTHY MINKY CORP	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:14:00 - [629] Originally by: mattimus9 i don't understand why you people are getting all annoyed? to run an amazing game on a graphics technology now 7yrs old is amazing. they say that most computers should be replaced after 4yrs due to technology upgrades. to run any new game on a computer that old is always a struggle and CCP have to upgrade in the end otherwise EVE will become obsolete as other games improve. I won't be able to use my laptop but luckily I have a PC and a new PC to be able to take version 3 you can get for about ú400 so maybe its time for you to upgrade!!! ignorant not everyone is from europe or has free money to spend, most have familly to attend to, bills, and all irl that can have the pleasure to upgrade the computer. if u dont eat, u dont sleep, u dont get ill, then maiby a 80% can have all the comps at date, think about everybody before saying something. and ccp one thing : more ppl = more money u get, why the fuk u want to have less ppl ?
LordRyan77 Gallente Ooops Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:17:00 - [630] Originally by: mattimus9 i don't understand why you people are getting all annoyed? to run an amazing game on a graphics technology now 7yrs old is amazing. they say that most computers should be replaced after 4yrs due to technology upgrades. to run any new game on a computer that old is always a struggle and CCP have to upgrade in the end otherwise EVE will become obsolete as other games improve. I won't be able to use my laptop but luckily I have a PC and a new PC to be able to take version 3 you can get for about ú400 so maybe its time for you to upgrade!!! Thats all fine and dandy as long as I don't have to replace my +$3,000(+ú2,300) 24 MONTH old PC. LordRyan77

Ein Spiegel	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:19:00 - [631] Perhaps CCP is asking people the wrong question about this. They want to know, more precisely, how many people will whine about the graphics requirements going beyond what people are able or willing to afford. And the information on graphics cards, SM version, etc, is good. Although just being able to support SM version whatever isn't going to tell you if you can get a decent experience. (It's a bit more convoluted than that, especially as any integrated chipset has its own twists due to mobo manufacturer.) No, I think the more interesting question, and one better than a hardware survey (again, just because your hardware can run it doesn't mean that the Linux/WINE/Mac/WarpOS can give you something that works) is why people play MMORPGs to begin with; what makes them more enjoyable than a stand-alone game. Why should I play EvE instead of (for example) Homeworld, Freelancer, or Terminus? It's the other people. If I just wanted bright shiny graphics I could play shudder StarWars Galaxies. Or World of Warcrack. It's the people that make me enjoy Eve. The high learning curve keeps even the ass-hats to a reasonable level of intellect and I've seen discussions in local chat channels that you simply COULD NOT find in any Barrens chat. So why is CCP focusing on pretty colors on a game design that could be practical using scrolling ANSI art (c'mon, people, it's a point and click game; the pretty colors are a distraction from coordinating with other people) or some kind of mapboard out of a bad military sci-fi movie? Work on the systems first that underlie the graphics, and work on the broken personal interaction systems. (Eve Voice still sucks compared to TeamSpeak or Ventrilo... why? And why can't we have audio that people will use?) Of course, really pretty box graphics could sell a few games for Atari...
LordRyan77 Gallente Ooops Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:25:00 - [632] Originally by: Ein Spiegel Perhaps CCP is asking people the wrong question about this. They want to know, more precisely, how many people will whine about the graphics requirements going beyond what people are able or willing to afford. And the information on graphics cards, SM version, etc, is good. Although just being able to support SM version whatever isn't going to tell you if you can get a decent experience. (It's a bit more convoluted than that, especially as any integrated chipset has its own twists due to mobo manufacturer.) No, I think the more interesting question, and one better than a hardware survey (again, just because your hardware can run it doesn't mean that the Linux/WINE/Mac/WarpOS can give you something that works) is why people play MMORPGs to begin with; what makes them more enjoyable than a stand-alone game. Why should I play EvE instead of (for example) Homeworld, Freelancer, or Terminus? It's the other people. If I just wanted bright shiny graphics I could play shudder StarWars Galaxies. Or World of Warcrack. It's the people that make me enjoy Eve. The high learning curve keeps even the ass-hats to a reasonable level of intellect and I've seen discussions in local chat channels that you simply COULD NOT find in any Barrens chat. So why is CCP focusing on pretty colors on a game design that could be practical using scrolling ANSI art (c'mon, people, it's a point and click game; the pretty colors are a distraction from coordinating with other people) or some kind of mapboard out of a bad military sci-fi movie? Work on the systems first that underlie the graphics, and work on the broken personal interaction systems. (Eve Voice still sucks compared to TeamSpeak or Ventrilo... why? And why can't we have audio that people will use?) Of course, really pretty box graphics could sell a few games for Atari... brings up an issue just bought a logitech headset last week, mic worked for a couple days than stopped. was wondering if the mic was broke or just eve voice quark.
PeHD0M	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:28:00 - [633] I want to continue playing with classic client. 1. I don't like premium graphic client. It is ugly. Almost all gallante and some amarr ships are better in classic version. 2. My comp can only support SM 1.4 and it is enough for my tasks. Sure, i can buy a videocard with SM 2.0 support, but what is the point, if you cut it anyway in the end of this year? Sounds like a waste of money to me. And for SM 3.0 support i have to buy a whole new computer wich is not gonna happen in near future because of financial crisys. So.. i guess i'll not be playing after march 10.. unless you can provide guaranty that you will support SM 2.0 for at least a couple of years, and if you repaint some ships to be more like in classic version.
Sinigogo	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:31:00 - [634] Originally by: LordRyan77 Originally by: mattimus9 i don't understand why you people are getting all annoyed? to run an amazing game on a graphics technology now 7yrs old is amazing. they say that most computers should be replaced after 4yrs due to technology upgrades. to run any new game on a computer that old is always a struggle and CCP have to upgrade in the end otherwise EVE will become obsolete as other games improve. I won't be able to use my laptop but luckily I have a PC and a new PC to be able to take version 3 you can get for about ú400 so maybe its time for you to upgrade!!! Thats all fine and dandy as long as I don't have to replace my +$3,000(+ú2,300) 24 MONTH old PC. If you managed to spend that amount of money on a PC 24 months ago that wont run SM2 graphics you're not really qualified to comment. That said, an SM2 capable card costs about as much as 10 packs of cigarettes these days. And also, 2 years is a small eternity on the hardware end of things. EVE is one of the very few games that actually runs on ancient cards to begin with, and this change will not affect that significantly. Go CCP! More dev time on making things better, less on supporting cheap bastards, hurray!
Midshipman Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:33:00 - [635] Originally by: Gerome Doutrande Are you also considering laptops when looking a sm 2/3 support? What would be the implications for those when going to sm 2 and especially sm 3? (Imagine a generic remark about laptops selling better than "proper PCs" here.) Hey CCP, upgrading a PC to the new SM 2/3 standards is not a big deal, but laptops are an entirely different picture. None of the laptops that I own or am able to borrow have video cards that will work under your proposed changes. Introducing an out of client interface for changing skills would partially alleviate this problem, but it won't replace the numerous other activities that I currently use my laptop for while I'm at school (corp role changes, production, market interaction, light hauling). Please consider how you will be limiting your game by shutting out less expensive notebooks.
Sinigogo	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:37:00 - [636] Awesome, people going "well I cant afford a new computer to run my 6 accounts on!". Please, if you can afford spending a small fortune per month on multiple accounts of the same game you can afford a $60 graphics card for your PC or sell your laptop and buy a slightly better one. It's a sound CCP decision. In fact I'd go further and make it SM3 only. That way they can focus all their energy on the UI bugs that are causing me issues (ever had the issue where you drag a mod to your ship and it appears on your ship but doesn't disappear from your hangar, fun fun).
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:41:00 - [637] Originally by: Sinigogo That way they can focus all their energy on the UI bugs that are causing me issues (ever had the issue where you drag a mod to your ship and it appears on your ship but doesn't disappear from your hangar, fun fun). lol. If they were fixing bugs instead of writing new clients you wouldn't have that problem No amount of shaders is going to fix the UI
ishkurz Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:43:00 - [638] ever had lag in Jita becase of premium client ? or do you like the premium client in fleet battles ?
Haral Reimo	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:45:00 - [639] I think part of the problem is that there are a lot of people who don't know what level of Shader Model their cards support, and wouldn't know how to find out. Also, as a lot of people never read the forums and dev blogs, many people won't hear about this in advance. I think CCP need to add a SM check to the main game client, and pop up a big warning if it won't work in March. Then make it easily visible from the Esc menu what level the card supports so people have an easy place to check.
Aerine Diamond	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:56:00 - [640] Edited by: Aerine Diamond on 14/01/2009 22:58:52 I really appreciate the way CCP is trying to do this. It's nice that they ask players before they do this. So here's my opinion: I have a Toshiba A200 with Intel X3100 graphics. Yes, Intel. And even the Classic client was a little slow on it, BUT after I changed the original 1 GB memory to 2,5 GB, the classic was no longer faster than the premium. (Because most integrated graphics cards use a part of the system memory instead of having their own.) And X3100 supports SM3.0, yes. (A shame I couldn't get it to do anti-aliasing.) So now I run Premium graphics pretty well on the X3100. On the family's desktop computer I was even able to add Anti-Aliasing with a tool called nHancer, so I have no personal problems with any of the changes. But discontinuing shader model 2.0 support is unwise, I think. All in all, saying goodbye to SM1 is wise, but dropping SM2 is not. With discontinuing support for SM1, CCP will get rid of most of the people who complain about everything. With setting the minimum to SM3, however, they will lose very much of the players who really would like to play the game, but will be unable to do so. So I would recommend against it. I think you should make the graphics more scalable. In almost every other games the settings allow us to set the graphics to what runs fast enough. In EVE there is only one main setting: to choose between classic and premium. So maybe CCP should consider a little more freedom for graphics settings. And for the hardcore gamers, you should add Anti-Aliasing feature. That should do.

facialimpediment Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:57:00 - [641] Edited by: facialimpediment on 14/01/2009 22:57:24 Dumping Shader Model 2.0 is a terrible, terrible idea. Not only does it not make business sense (you would lose subscriptions, such as my own), but also the global economy really sucks right now, so with what money would people with older computers (such as myself) go out and get a computer upgrade? Personally, I'd rather eat. Worst. Idea. Ever.
Rufus MacMaranth Gallente Shadow Front	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:58:00 - [642] Originally by: Sinigogo Awesome, people going "well I cant afford a new computer to run my 6 accounts on!". Please, if you can afford spending a small fortune per month on multiple accounts of the same game you can afford a $60 graphics card for your PC or sell your laptop and buy a slightly better one. It's a sound CCP decision. In fact I'd go further and make it SM3 only. That way they can focus all their energy on the UI bugs that are causing me issues (ever had the issue where you drag a mod to your ship and it appears on your ship but doesn't disappear from your hangar, fun fun). God you are insufferable. The whole beauty of this game is in everything but the graphics. It is in it complexity, the interaction, the vastness of it all. If you pick a game for graphics, even MMOs, there are many better out there than EVE .. even if it goes to SM 3.0. And some people can't afford a new PC to run their 1 account on. And if you have a laptop there is no card upgrade in many cases. And sell your old laptop? Yeah, that will get you a long way towards an new one. Dolt! Cheers, Ruf.
Rogue Trayder	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:03:00 - [643] Hey CCP, I guess you stopped listening to this forum a while back seeing as youre no longer posting encouraging replies.. However if you were still reading then are you seeing any trends? Laptops? Old equipment? Not many people using the premium client currently? (Im sure your stats show otherwise ) Im sure though, as a sensible and forward looking company CCP is fully aware of how your client base plays your game, and generally with what kind of equipment. One question... Does your average WOW player with their spectacular gaming rig have the kind of patience required to "wait" for Battleship 5 to roll around? Just a question? Hmm? Juuuust thought id let that one slide around.....? Hmm? See how it goes.....? Hmm? Hmm? You have a pretty dedicated player base, not many instant gratification games can claim that. Unfortunately not many EVE players are young enough to have mommy and daddy buy them a new WOW gaming rig this year.
Irish Blend Caldari 10045th Logistics Battalion	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:05:00 - [644] Are we going to get a test button? Run this utility from the web or locally to verify what will run? A lot of people playing EVE are on work laptops I like cats, especially with General Tso's sauce http://www.skamarakas.com/jim Got a question about EVE Online, ask. If I know the answer, I will tell
Irish Blend Caldari 10045th Logistics Battalion	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:10:00 - [645] Originally by: Rufus MacMaranth And if you have a laptop there is no card upgrade in many cases. And sell your old laptop? Yeah, that will get you a long way towards an new one. Dolt! My employeer might not think its that simple to upgrade the laptop I carry with me on business trips. Upgrading corporate laptops by the thousands is not an easy thing for a lot of businesses these days,as others have said. ts a mattr of economics, not just for a single home PC - the easiest to upgrade - but for all of those people like myself who play on laptop computers I like cats, especially with General Tso's sauce http://www.skamarakas.com/jim Got a question about EVE Online, ask. If I know the answer, I will tell
Seishomaru	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:19:00 - [646] Could CCP at least be kind and say who is now sponsoring Eve development? Is it NVIDIA or AMD? I've worked on game businnes for quite some years, and would not be the first time for this to happen. Nothing to be ashamed, its business, but You should rethink a bit the schedule at least.

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:24:00 - [647] Originally by: Poreuomai What will the "Minimum Spec" on the boxed version say? Are you really going to put "SM2" knowing that such systems cannot run the game six months later? As CCP Zulupark said in his blog, at this time we are only considering making SM3 the minimum specification in the Winter Expansion in Q4 2009. We are soliciting your input on the matter. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Poreuomai Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:28:00 - [648] Edited by: Poreuomai on 14/01/2009 23:36:29 I understand, but it seems only fair that the SM2/SM3 choice should be made before the boxes are printed with the minimum spec. Just a thought. As for the pixel shader version, I myself am almost certainly going to upgrade my machine to SM3 by the autum, but I know that quite a few people play on (older) laptop computers.
Helison Gallente GREY COUNCIL	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:33:00 - [649] CCP Explorer (or any other Dev), could you please answer the question about what will happen with the Linux client? Or did I just miss the answer?
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:38:00 - [650] Originally by: Helison CCP Explorer (or any other Dev), could you please answer the question about what will happen with the Linux client? Or did I just miss the answer? I would guess that you should wait on the results of MAC beta. Programming for a mac is very very close to programming for linux. If they make the engine work ok on mac OpenGl it will work ok for linux easily. Its just logical that they focus fist on MAc. But When that is working OK should be easy to achieve a linux premium client.

Solo Drakban GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:40:00 - [651] I'd be very interested to know where these numbers CCP are seemingly pulling out of the air came from. The Steam HW survey, which is generally a decent guide to computing power out there given the penetration of Steam shows that there are just under 8% who are capped at SM2.0 and while it has been very slowly trending down I don't think it's going to hit 3% by year end. Again, these are figures from the Steam HW which doesn't directly equate to EVE customers but is a good generalized view of gaming computers. View it at: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
Avenger Garius	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:40:00 - [652] Edited by: Avenger Garius on 14/01/2009 23:40:40 Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Poreuomai What will the "Minimum Spec" on the boxed version say? Are you really going to put "SM2" knowing that such systems cannot run the game six months later? As CCP Zulupark said in his blog, at this time we are only considering making SM3 the minimum specification in the Winter Expansion in Q4 2009. We are soliciting your input on the matter. This, the sky isn't falling. And they're expecting a few losses so they don't have to manage an extra client worth of data including but not limited to code for graphics engines code between game engine and graphics engine, textures, models, menu items, etc. So for I believe EVE has hit a 250,000 subscribers mark 5% being in the 12,500 mark now assuming that all the posters on here were complaining about the move away from SM 1.0 it's still only 0.25% of the whole subscriber base approximate I'm working off you need the amount of people not posting concerned to be 19 times bigger before it rises above 5% of 250,000. So judging off the current forums posts 647, I'm not seeing the sky falling... yet...
Zerb Cerus	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:44:00 - [653] agp SM 2.0 here too. (PC) I wont touch this system until i buy me a whole new rig at the end of the year. Fortunately I invested a few extra bucks to get my Dell Inspiron 600 equipped with an ati with SM3. \o/ [ whine ] Originally by: PeHD0M 1. I don't like premium graphic client. It is ugly. Almost all gallante and some amarr ships are better in classic version. Me too! I understand that design is a matter of taste but some ships that look low-res but shiny in classic are looking like made out of ordinary paper in premium. Also texture resolutions are very inconsistent (hi-res textures on one part of the ship, extra-low on another) despite the tool you showed at fanfest that was made to prevent that. Combined with the performance (the framerate in empty space, or when u r fighting "red crosses" is a bad joke) and the fact that i did spaceship-3D-programming myself i was disapointed enough to to take 3 months of eve-break until i downgraded to classic and started playing again. [ /whine ] I decided to ignore the ui/gfx and enjoy the positive sides of eve. So im fine if you decide to reduce the time you waste on a redundant engine and move your fucus to more important things.
Enthral	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:46:00 - [654] I feel for people who own laptops which are several years old, but desktop users have NO EXCUSE. SM 3.0 compatible video cards for the older motherboards with AGP instead of PCI Express, are available and dirt cheap. X1650 Pro AGP That's USD $40 after rebate. Here are the specs: Radeon X1650 PRO AGP Specifications EVE is going to have to move forward, with or without the small fraction of players who can't afford $40 for a new videocard. Business is just like PvP: keep moving, or die. -Grid

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:49:00 - [655] Originally by: Avon The servers farm out the same info to all clients (...) The clients are both just different frontends to the same data and tasks No, the Classic and Premium clients are two different frontends to two different sets of art assets. While we continue to support the Classic client then every new art asset has to be done in duplicate. That is what we did in the Quantum Rise expansion, all the new star gates and the Orca were all done in duplicate, completely separate Classic and Premium versions. In Apocrypha, we are completing the Renovation project so that all art assets have a Premium version (counterpart to their Classic version). But we are also adding a lot of new art assets, such as Tech 3 ships. We are only developing Premium versions of those new art assets, since we would only be able to make half as many or it would twice as long if we continued to support the Classic edition.

CyberGh0st Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:52:00 - [656] My thoughts on this, Step 1 is a good thing, eventually we have to move on, and keep supporting shader 1.x is just beyond reasonable. Having just 1 client and thus needing less time to develop new stuff is a good thing. Step 2 is 1 step too much too soon, for 2 reasons : 1. Alot of good performing ATI cards only support SM 2.0, but are faster then their Nvidia SM 3.0 counterparts. The X850XT ( SM 2.0 ) for example, is comparable to a 6800Ultra ( SM 3.0 ) and quite a bit faster then a 6600GT ( SM 3.0 ). Forcing people to upgrade these will cost CCP, for sure. 2. ALOT of Laptops just don't support SM 3.0, so alot of students and other people that travel alot will be screwed, and if CCP hopes that alot of them will upgrade, then they are making a big mistake. If you want to learn 1 thing that WoW does right, then it is that you should keep your minimum specs intact as much as possible. You can still run WoW fine on your original computer you had when the game released, meanwhile improvements have been made and there are many options you can tweak, so you can put your 8800GT to good use on your 24" LCD monitor with all effects and options maxed. I regularly assemble gaming rigs for friends and family, and I know that some people have no issues to pay big bucks for bleeding edge tech, but I also have experienced alot of people that just don't want to upgrade, and they just stick with WoW, cause they can run the game. Clearly step 2 has alot to do with WIS ( Walking In Stations ), but the only responsible way for CCP to deal with this is to allow people to play EVE online with SM 2.0, like they can now, HOWEVER, if they want to Walk in a station and experience the new content there, they will have to upgrade to an SM 3.0 gfx card. People will slowly start to upgrade their systems and perhaps in 2 years time we can have this discussion again. I would hate to see people leave over this, but I am sure many will, some out of necessity, some out of principle. And no you can't have my stuff, cause I have a Core 2 Quad @ 3600mhz and will upgrade my 8800GTS 512MB SLI when the GTX295 comes out :p
Aldiree Antima Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:55:00 - [657] Originally by: Haral Reimo I think part of the problem is that there are a lot of people who don't know what level of Shader Model their cards support, and wouldn't know how to find out. Easy to fix on Windows you can check gfx-card with GPU-Z http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/ Mac and Linux people post link the tools for Mac/Linux, please.

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:56:00 - [658] Originally by: clone 1 Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Leeham I hate to disturb the argument here regarding people being excluded but will Premium Light graphically represent prenium or classic? Premium Light will be an "auto-generated SM2 version" of the current Premium art content (which is SM3). Then what benefit does dropping this Auto-generated SM2 version give CCP (...) Why develop Premium lite if its canned 9 months down the line. This is a part of our effort to gauge if we can develop art assets for the Winter Q4 2009 expansion based purely on SM3, using all that's available in that standard. We know that we need to offer an SM2 version for the Apocrypha expansion but are soliciting your feedback on the possible SM3 plans for the next expansion after Apocrypha.

CyberGh0st Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:04:00 - [659] Edited by: CyberGh0st on 15/01/2009 00:10:10 Originally by: CCP Explorer This is a part of our effort to gauge if we can develop art assets for the Winter Q4 2009 expansion based purely on SM3, using all that's available in that standard. Nope, forget about it, your sub numbers will be hurt, I want to make a bet on that, seriously. But I have a smarter solution for you, keep the "auto generated" SM 2.0 for the current content, but force people to buy an SM 3.0 gfx card if they want to experience Walking in Stations. Look at it this way, since launch in march 2003, people have been able to use their good old computer to run the game, thats almost 6 years. And now you are not thinking of skipping 1 generation of shader models, but 2 in 1 year ... it is not that hard to see this is not a very good idea, is it? Cyberwiz aka CyberGh0st aka Mentakh Active @ EvE Online Favorites : DAoC-SI/SWG Pre CU-NGE/Ryzom Retired @ WoW/LOTRO/WAR/Planetside/Entropia/UO/Lineage/GW/EQ/Jumpgate/Dofus/AoC
Haral Reimo	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:06:00 - [660] Originally by: Aldiree Antima Edited by: Aldiree Antima on 14/01/2009 23:56:08 Originally by: Haral Reimo I think part of the problem is that there are a lot of people who don't know what level of Shader Model their cards support, and wouldn't know how to find out. Easy to fix on Windows you can check your gfx-card with GPU-Z http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/ Mac and Linux people post link the tools for Mac/Linux, please. I know that, you know that. I'd guess 90% of the Eve playerbase does NOT know that. Remember, most Eve players don't post in or read the forums

Havok Pierce Gallente The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:08:00 - [661] Originally by: Xailia Originally by: D'ceet Edited by: D''ceet on 14/01/2009 00:05:01 Toshiba Laptop... and i really like eve and want to keep playing, but just cant afford a better pc...i really really REALLY hope this doesnt shaft me.... GMA950 supports SM2. Heck GMA900 supports SM2. Right now you can run the Premium Client on any GMA9xx computer (or Mirage 3, S3 Chrome, x200) with premium content disabled. Remind me to bugreport the Premium client crashing any time the client loses focus (quitting, alt-tab, etc) on the intel X3100 under Vista. My fiance uses Classic because it doesn't crash, premium does. I suspect Premium Lite will crash. To weigh in, dropping SM2 support kills me being able to play EVE on my road machine (Mobility 9600 here). Last time I was unable to play EVE on my laptop meant I wasn't playing at all. Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
Dsnakes	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:20:00 - [662] Originally by: Xessej .... Either support shadermodel 2.0 or give us a skill queue. He have a point here, most ppl i know use low end pc, work pc, public pc, etc, to change skill, update some order, buy stuff, and never goes to space.
5n4keyes Sacred Templars Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:27:00 - [663] Originally by: CCP Explorer In Apocrypha, we are completing the Renovation project so that all art assets have a Premium version (counterpart to their Classic version). But we are also adding a lot of new art assets, such as Tech 3 ships. We are only developing Premium versions of those new art assets, since we would only be able to make half as many or it would twice as long if we continued to support the Classic edition. This would indicate that you knew this change was needed many many months ago, especially since T3 was announced at fanfest in November. This in mind, why do you decide to announce it just under 2 months before the next patch where this change happens? wouldnt a more logical and more acceptable thing to do of been to announce it say, Fanfest? atleast giving people time to afford upgrade/new systems. Insted many of us are now sitting thinking, oh f*** only 2 paydays left til the next patch is out, and there isnt any way i can afford a new system/hardware yet!
Bibi Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:28:00 - [664] People talk about oh just run shadermodel etc and see if your gf support 2.0 or 3.0 eve will work sure if you got any of those no problem, but what about multiple accounts running at the sametime ? I dont know anyone in eve that only use /have one account not one player, I Imagine that alot of people thats been using more then one account at the same time will have problems after this change even if their GF support 2.0 and 3. and obviously it will be more expensive upgrading for those players to be able to run multiple accounts as they done so far with classic eve client. As a multi account user I dont really see myself playing eve if I can't play as I now can do with the classic version, at leats 3 accounts on one computer with a good fps as well atm. I dont know in price how much I would have to spend to get 3 accounts running perfect on one computer with premium lite version only thing I know is that it will be more money then if I only had one account running and ofc I want them to run as good as they did before the change. But I'm not willing to spend large amount of money just to be able play multiple accounts in a new and less reliable client that makes the game slower then the old version even with a new computer thats it...
Professor Dumbledore Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:36:00 - [665] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: clone 1 Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Leeham I hate to disturb the argument here regarding people being excluded but will Premium Light graphically represent prenium or classic? Premium Light will be an "auto-generated SM2 version" of the current Premium art content (which is SM3). Then what benefit does dropping this Auto-generated SM2 version give CCP (...) Why develop Premium lite if its canned 9 months down the line. We know that we need to offer an SM2 version for the Apocrypha expansion but are soliciting your feedback on the possible SM3 plans for the next expansion after Apocrypha. This is a part of our effort to gauge if we can develop art assets for the Winter Q4 2009 expansion based purely on SM3, using all that's available in that standard. no one cares how your stupid game looks it just has to work, shut up.
mechtech Entropy Industries	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:37:00 - [666] I think it's a necessary move. Once walking in stations comes out, there's only going to be 1 set of art assets for it, which means that everyone needs to be on premium.
Ada Erom	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:37:00 - [667] Ya know, some of us just want to play EVE and don't need lots of pretty little dodads that need expensive equipment to run. I just got my used laptop for $400 and upgraded the video card to a 64 MB one and that is the max I can get for it. WTF is your problems dudes. Do you want subscribers or not.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:39:00 - [668] Originally by: Bibi People talk about oh just run shadermodel etc and see if your gf support 2.0 or 3.0 eve will work sure if you got any of those no problem, but what about multiple accounts running at the sametime ? I dont know anyone in eve that only use /have one account not one player, I Imagine that alot of people thats been using more then one account at the same time will have problems after this change even if their GF support 2.0 and 3. and obviously it will be more expensive upgrading for those players to be able to run multiple accounts as they done so far with classic eve client. As a multi account user I dont really see myself playing eve if I can't play as I now can do with the classic version, at leats 3 accounts on one computer with a good fps as well atm. I dont know in price how much I would have to spend to get 3 accounts running perfect on one computer with premium lite version only thing I know is that it will be more money then if I only had one account running and ofc I want them to run as good as they did before the change. But I'm not willing to spend large amount of money just to be able play multiple accounts in a new and less reliable client that makes the game slower then the old version even with a new computer thats it... well I can answer that myself even. Shader model upgrade would have ZERO effect on how many clients you can run. Since you have only 1 at your screen at any time. Shaders are procedures ran to each and every pixel on the screen. That is independent of a lot of stuff that people usually associate with software load. It does not matter how many ships are in the battle using SM 2 or 3 won't change anything the GPU load is exactly the same. So when people say to us to use classic client in fleet battles.. just LOL at their ignorance. Does not matter if you have 27 clients running at once. SM 2 or 3 won't change anything on load because shaders are run only to pixels that are on the screen.. The only thing that limits how many clients you can run is main system memory and CPU itself. In 9 of 10 cases will be memory bottlenecked (system, not video card) If you get a 6600 card you can run premium. If you load more clients ,and loose performance video card has ZERO relation to it. You are just short of memory or raw cpu power. Well in fact I just lied a tiny bit. memmory usage and CPU usage are LESS demanded on SM3 shaders than SM2 shaders. SM3 allows the implementation of branches and loops within the shader. To achieve reasonable programmability, SM2 must use data tables encoded in extra textures. That uses more memmory and CPU power. SM3 unloads this into runtime processing in the VGA. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Claude Leon	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:40:00 - [669] Originally by: Ada Erom Ya know, some of us just want to play EVE and don't need lots of pretty little dodads that need expensive equipment to run. I just got my used laptop for $400 and upgraded the video card to a 64 MB one and that is the max I can get for it. WTF is your problems dudes. Do you want subscribers or not. And some of us have systems that can run "pretty little dodads". How about you stop whining and get a better job?
Bibi Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:43:00 - [670] Edited by: Bibi on 15/01/2009 00:43:30 I think it's a necessary move. Once walking in stations comes out, there's only going to be 1 set of art assets for it, which means that everyone needs to be on premium. HolyCrack walking in station that will improve the pvp in the game!!! And all other features as well!!! Even premium lite version will be faster 1000000k fps or more

Stradiot Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:48:00 - [671] Edited by: Stradiot on 15/01/2009 00:49:04 Originally by: Claude Leon Originally by: Ada Erom Ya know, some of us just want to play EVE and don't need lots of pretty little dodads that need expensive equipment to run. I just got my used laptop for $400 and upgraded the video card to a 64 MB one and that is the max I can get for it. WTF is your problems dudes. Do you want subscribers or not. And some of us have systems that can run "pretty little dodads". How about you stop whining and get a better job? this is a business decision on ccp's part, they're not going to eliminate scalability just so you can have your doodads if it means it's going to cost them subscribers edit: walking in stations is a joke anyways and i'm willing to bet it won't do anything to expand their base of subscribers
Toad Black	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:50:00 - [672] Edited by: Toad Black on 15/01/2009 00:53:36 Check the news. On the same day as this announcement, they announced public beta of premium content on OS/X. Which hopefully means premium content on Linux will follow shortly, since afaik OS/X uses opengl ... I'm gonna buy a 3 month sub in mid feb, if they discontinue Linux support in early March they're gonna owe me a refund ... FYI branching in shaders is implemented by following both paths... it's still faster?
Rufus MacMaranth Gallente Shadow Front	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:53:00 - [673] Originally by: Claude Leon Originally by: Ada Erom Ya know, some of us just want to play EVE and don't need lots of pretty little dodads that need expensive equipment to run. I just got my used laptop for $400 and upgraded the video card to a 64 MB one and that is the max I can get for it. WTF is your problems dudes. Do you want subscribers or not. And some of us have systems that can run "pretty little dodads". How about you stop whining and get a better job? How about you f* off and go play an MMO designed for pretty graphics, coz this sure as hell ain't the one. Pretty graphics does not a good game make and if this is all for WIS, then make WIS only SM3.0 as has been said.
Bibi Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2009.01.15 00:56:00 - [674] The only thing that limits how many clients you can run is main system memory and CPU itself. In 9 of 10 cases will be memory bottlenecked (system, not video card) If you get a 6600 card you can run premium. If you load more clients ,and loose performance video card has ZERO relation to it. You are just short of memory or raw cpu power. so I can run my 3 accounts with a 6600 card with premium and it will work nice and if it does not work ok its some other part of my computer I see I see I mean to be rude now but its just not accurate all of this... its just not I'm sorry I'm not totally f-u-c-k-e-d in my head
Ted Grayham Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:05:00 - [675] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Avon The servers farm out the same info to all clients (...) The clients are both just different frontends to the same data and tasks No, the Classic and Premium clients are two different frontends to two different sets of art assets. While we continue to support the Classic client then every new art asset has to be done in duplicate. That is what we did in the Quantum Rise expansion, all the new star gates and the Orca were all done in duplicate, completely separate Classic and Premium versions. In Apocrypha, we are completing the Renovation project so that all art assets have a Premium version (counterpart to their Classic version). But we are also adding a lot of new art assets, such as Tech 3 ships. We are only developing Premium versions of those new art assets, since we would only be able to make half as many or it would twice as long if we continued to support the Classic edition. ****e. Ok, It was nice and all, but I don't know why you bothered :-O Good to get it off your chests then, I presume. You should seriously consider a limited market/research/skilling client with the same code, and without the assets for those low-low end computers though. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would consider this a very good thing. Even I would use that.
TheDevilsJury GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:16:00 - [676] CCP, shader model 2.0 compatible cards are pretty common and include nearly all integrated solutions on the marketplace. I am extremely concerned about forcing shader model 3.0 compatibility however. Many laptops and desktops in current use use integrated chips like Intel GMA 900 or 950, which are only shader model 2.0 compatible, and many users still game on computers with cards like the Radeon 9700 or Radeon x800. I have serious doubts over whether such users will update their systems in the current year when what they have is probably sufficient for the older games and applications they use. Indeed, for laptops an upgrade path from integrated graphics isn't available. Keeping a premium lite client with support for shader model 2.0 makes sense in a much longer term than the plan set out in the dev blog.
Darth Obvious	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:23:00 - [677] Originally by: Xessej .... Either support shadermodel 2.0 or give us a skill queue.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:30:00 - [678] Originally by: Gner Dechast Originally by: Avon I couldn't care less if Classic won't have ambulation, I don't need it. Could this be the real reason, not wanting to do ambulation models etc. twice? I for one would also gladly accept no WiS and to keep classic. /signed
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:38:00 - [679] Edited by: Avon on 15/01/2009 01:45:00 Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Avon The servers farm out the same info to all clients (...) The clients are both just different frontends to the same data and tasks No, the Classic and Premium clients are two different frontends to two different sets of art assets. While we continue to support the Classic client then every new art asset has to be done in duplicate. That is what we did in the Quantum Rise expansion, all the new star gates and the Orca were all done in duplicate, completely separate Classic and Premium versions. You totally misunderstood what I was saying. I was talking server side data, in response to the claim that ditching classic would somehow make the server run better. But then, this thread is all about misinformation, right? We aren't asking for classic to be max possible glitz, just functional. I couldn't care less if T3 ships look great or were just reskinned versions of existing stuff, It doesn't make any difference to the game, which fortunately is a whole lot more than just a bunch of nice graphics. Or maybe it isn't anymore? Not to you?
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:42:00 - [680] Basically this is a: "We can't be bothered to continue supporting the people who have supported us since beta" thing. How about you replace my laptop for me? I haven't changed the minimum specs for Eve, and I haven't asked for them to change. This is all about CCP, and nothing about the players. Shameful. "We won't do T3 ships for Classic because we just don't care enough about you". Thanks.

T Op	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:42:00 - [681] i've been reading some of this stuff, and find that many concerns mention 'skills' and 'older machine' in the same line... ccp already has a limited character data sheet, it's available to all players on its web-site, and lists all skills and their training status... i seems to me that it wouldn't be extremely difficult to make that an 'interactive' data sheet, or just copy the in-game character skills sheet, to the web-site. it should not require too much additional work... a second link (web-page > to server) to allow skill switching... this would allow people to access the 'skill tree' from just about any machine capable of accessing the internet with a browser... i'll hit the 'multiple clients' that can't afford a $30 - $45 USD video card later, lmao
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:45:00 - [682] Originally by: CCP Explorer We know that we need to offer an SM2 version for the Apocrypha expansion but are soliciting your feedback on the possible SM3 plans for the next expansion after Apocrypha. This is a part of our effort to gauge if we can develop art assets for the Winter Q4 2009 expansion based purely on SM3, using all that's available in that standard. My feedback is simple: Require shader 3 and I have to close my account. It is not economically viable for me to invest in a new laptop in order to play a game when our dearest Governor has said we will have to cut up to 20% of our budgets this year. It also is not possible for me to use my almost new desktop for gaming due to constraints on my time and location in the house due to family and other concerns. If my current machine (GMA 945, like millions of other machines out there) cannot play Eve, my account cannot stay open and I will be playing Aces High instead for my relaxation.
Russell Stover	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:51:00 - [683] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Gerome Doutrande Are you also considering laptops when looking a sm 2/3 support? What would be the implications for those when going to sm 2 and especially sm 3? (Imagine a generic remark about laptops selling better than "proper PCs" here.) We are in fact considering laptops, most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3 (the GMA series as per here) I've read some of the comments here. You should consider your laptop users (school/university and company/home laptops) as being important when you decide on your graphics. You should pickup a laptop that was selling for $499 12 months ago and see how it does. If its 'liveable' when jumping into Jita and 'decent' when mining and doing missions then you have a standard you shouldnt go below. I'm a home user but when I'm on the road I use it on my modestly good 2 year old laptop and I wouldn't be paying for this game if I couldnt play it when I wanted to. You shouldnt consider what came out 3 months ago as your 'well its what people have' Those would be the xmas presents. Think back to the people who can't afford to upgrade every year.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:54:00 - [684] "Guys, guys, it's nearly March!!" 'Uh-huh' "We ready to go with the new expansion?" 'Nope, playing fussball man' " !!! " 'Chill bro, we got a plan. We only code half of it, and then tell the subscribers that the we are ditching Classic because of technical limitation. It's cool.' "They'll never fall for tha.. hmmm, let's try." 'If it works we can ditch even more stuff later and all go make female vampire skins in the autumn.' "EPIC!" Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
facialimpediment Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:59:00 - [685] HEY CCP! Your statistics are terrible in regards to the people that are still on Shader Model 2.0 only cards. See the Steam Survey here: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ Per December 2008, 18.91% of all users polled via the Steam application had Shader Model 2.0-only cards. Not three percent. Almost nineteen percent. Check your numbers before you go alienating nearly 20% of the gaming base.
Russell Stover	Posted - 2009.01.15 02:04:00 - [686] You know its a bad idea when a Goonswarm and BoB agree that its a bad idea. ^
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.01.15 02:08:00 - [687] Oh, and CCP please change the name from "Premium Lite" to just plain "Lite". We'll know what you mean :) And give us the option to turn texture detail all the way down to the point where we can have shaded (not textured) polygons but still have normal maps. At least the ship still stays shiny and has pretty shadows, but I can run two clients on the one laptop due to lower requirements for texture memory :) My next computer upgrade will be mid 2010. If I can't play your game on the computers I'm currently running, I can't play your game. I miss Elite =(
Tais Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.15 02:13:00 - [688] Abit confusing. As for me, i can use premium. But problem is that 2 clients works, but if i try to run one more, after few minutes all clients crashes. On classic i can run 4 clients, movie and u-torrent. Also PvP - premium only.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.01.15 02:16:00 - [689] Edited by: Mara Rinn on 15/01/2009 02:17:36 Edited by: Mara Rinn on 15/01/2009 02:16:22 Originally by: Kagura Nikon The only thing that limits how many clients you can run is main system memory and CPU itself. In 9 of 10 cases will be memory bottlenecked (system, not video card) I have problems running two clients in Premium, but can run just fine in Classic, only because Premium uses far more texture memory than Classic. The bottleneck in my case is that the graphics card only has 128MB for texture memory. Multiple instances of the EVE client do not share textures, so I'll end up with the same textures loaded twice, effectively cutting the graphics card down to 64MB of texture memory for each client. In my case, I'd be able to run multiple independent clients on my laptop without any trouble if it was possible to turn textures off. One optimisation that CCP could make is for the one client to allow multiple simultaneous sessions, thereby keeping all the graphics assets in memory for only 1 client. Each flight window would be part of one application - this would allow other efficiencies such as only sending object details down the pipe once instead of once for each client as it jumps into system or loads the grid at the end of warping in.
Trellish Ten Ton Hammer Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.15 02:23:00 - [690] I'm quite concerned about phasing out classic content in favor of "premium lite". The reason being that while my computer is plenty sufficient to run premium content, the game crashes instantly every time I try, forever limiting me to classic. I've filled out a bug report, then re-submitted it giving all the log reports that they ask for.... the problem of course being that when you file out a bug report... they never give you updates... I got no way of knowing when or if they fix the game so that my xp machine with a radeon 3850 can use premium.

Nene Xen	Posted - 2009.01.15 02:36:00 - [691] Originally by: Andrue If we could just render the inside of a station with environment loading disabled it would be useful. That way people relying on slightly crappy laptops can still chat to friends from their hotel room and change skills. That is EXACTLY the reason i purchased my Aspire One... god i hope i can get EVE to run on it after this...
Bom Bommer	Posted - 2009.01.15 02:45:00 - [692] Well, well, well. I am worried. I should not be : although my computer is quite old, it fully supports SM 3.0 and can perfectly run the premium client. Still, I run the classic client. Why is that ? Because I don't care about graphics, I care about : * resolution : for a smaller UI, and readability (need to match the LCD screen's grid). * fluidity and responsivity. And the classic client performs slightly better in the worst situations, when my machine is highly stressed out and only displays 10-20 fps (as opposed to 60 in best situations). Now, the 3D part is probably not the bottleneck, I bet it is rather about waiting for information from your severs, processing the UI (slow PIV inside), loading from HD, etc. Still, making the GPU load heavier won't help. So, if you tell me you're going to trade a bit of my already weak performances to make a nicer game, you lose. If you tell me I should not care because my machine is way beyond the requirements, you lose since I am absolutely not comfortable with my current performances. Remember : I want fluidity and responsivity without sacrificing my resolution. Now, looking at your technical plans, here is what I think : shaders ? Should not be the problem, you can keep them low enough to not make any difference for me. Downsampling textures ? That means loading larger textures and downsampling them, which will increase load times (unless you do it once only). Meshes ? You didn't say anything about meshes and this does matter. Since you don't plan to maintain multiple meshes sets, that means either a straight heavier GPU load or, maybe, automatic vertices reduction (done once and for all, or every time we load the scene ?).
Ellariona	Posted - 2009.01.15 02:58:00 - [693] Cool, mine supports 4.0 shader :) no worries... Figured as much, as i can run 4 clients simultaniously... i say, go for it! its time for innovation (look at anti-aliasing too, because now thats nowhere to be found) And after that, CCP should have enough time on their hands to focus on: - Improving UI (f.e. improving the target overview, make it a standard or customisable block or something) - Better resolution!!(as i have read above) Matching from game to screen! I dont want big boxes in the way of my ship and overview on a 1680*1050 res... - Getting rid of some of the old persistent bugs (f.e. jump clones killing modules on your ship <as heard on local> and stealth bombers not being able to do damage with missiles who are launched already when going in cloaked mode: yes, rediculous! Not 'stealthy' at all! I thought you wanted to make sure every ship had a specific role... It would be a start to adapt this)
Stradiot Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.15 03:43:00 - [694] Originally by: Toad Black Edited by: Toad Black on 15/01/2009 00:53:36 Check the news. On the same day as this announcement, they announced public beta of premium content on OS/X. Which hopefully means premium content on Linux will follow shortly, since afaik OS/X uses opengl ... I'm gonna buy a 3 month sub in mid feb, if they discontinue Linux support in early March they're gonna owe me a refund ... FYI branching in shaders is implemented by following both paths... it's still faster? ccp ain't gonna owe you anything
Mioelnir Minmatar Meltd0wn	Posted - 2009.01.15 04:02:00 - [695] Oh noes, my Dual Pentium Pro 200 with 2x Voodoo 2 SLI won't run eve anymore.... And my DEC Alphastation 500 never did sob. - Dropping SM1 support: all systems clear for take-off. Go! - Dropping SM2 support: I'd keep it in Winter 2009 and reevaluate for Spring 2010.
Tiny Tom	Posted - 2009.01.15 04:32:00 - [696] The March upgrade will kill using my second newest machine for dual-boxing, but I can live with that; there won't be any cancellation here. That said, I would recommend a bit more notice for desupport in the future. If someone does need to look at buying a new machine to play the game, it's reasonable to give them more than two months to save for it, even if their hardware is old. While I understand that the horse is out of the barn with Apocrypha (the schedule is fixed by a press release, which was presumably issued on the assumption that only one set of art would be needed), I'd encourage more notice in the future. The SM2 discussion is a good thing in that regard. In terms of further improvement, I'd be more supportive of CCP keeping SM2 support for the low end but ditching SM3 support for the high end than just making SM3 the base. My gaming machine is SM3, but I think keeping SM2 at the low end but allowing for improvements on the high end would keep the game the most healthy. Lastly, I'll be civil, but I have a couple bones to pick with the hardware snobs. First, if you're going to look down your nose and present yourself as an authority, get your facts right. * The first major SM2 card was the R300, which was launched in August 2002--6 and half years ago, not the 10+ some here have quoted. * "Upgrading" to a PCI card with a newer graphics chips would almost certainly be foolish. The graphics card needs to receive each frame's geometry data in order to render, and I've observed going PCI-speed transfers having a deleterious effect on the performance of a Q3 mod years ago. I don't want to think about how PCI transfers would kneecap the frame rate of a game with polygon counts scaled the interconnects typical for SM3 hardware. Hardware is an investment a lot of people can afford to make with planning, and very often the schedule is determined by external factors even when money is available. I assembled my current machine in the middle of 2005 with plans to upgrade it two years later. Money wasn't an issue when that two year time expired, but my current machines has done the job. Since then, I considered it silly to put an old OS (WindowsXP) on a new machine, but I've also preferred to avoid the fetid stench of Vista for as long as possible. Barring a requirement my current machine can't meet or a desire for "gravy" performance, I'll be holding tight for at least several more months. If users haven't been given enough notice about de-support, I don't blame them for finding an abrupt change hard.
Bo'Tox Amarr Arkor Inc	Posted - 2009.01.15 04:43:00 - [697] Originally by: Bibi People talk about oh just run shadermodel etc and see if your gf support 2.0 or 3.0 eve will work sure if you got any of those no problem, but what about multiple accounts running at the sametime ? I dont know anyone in eve that only use /have one account not one player, I Imagine that alot of people thats been using more then one account at the same time will have problems after this change even if their GF support 2.0 and 3. and obviously it will be more expensive upgrading for those players to be able to run multiple accounts as they done so far with classic eve client. As a multi account user I dont really see myself playing eve if I can't play as I now can do with the classic version, at leats 3 accounts on one computer with a good fps as well atm. I dont know in price how much I would have to spend to get 3 accounts running perfect on one computer with premium lite version only thing I know is that it will be more money then if I only had one account running and ofc I want them to run as good as they did before the change. But I'm not willing to spend large amount of money just to be able play multiple accounts in a new and less reliable client that makes the game slower then the old version even with a new computer thats it... I use one account on one PC. Wont pay for 2 accounts due to me being a tightwad...
Zeko Rena Caldari Tankt	Posted - 2009.01.15 04:43:00 - [698] Wow i never relised it but boy EVE-Online must really have alot of casual gamers playing it, to be honest, if you cant run EVE-Premium you pretty much have a box that should be on a scrap yard. Im guessing the only reason alot of people here have such crap machines is because there casual gamers and spending money on there machine to keep it at least slighty upto date is like throwing money down the toilet? Granted EVE-Premium may be a struggle for alot of laptops, but only noobs are gamers on laptops, laptops are not BUILT for gaming its fairly obvious. Your all posting laptop models and hardware that is not made for playing games its made for running Microsoft Office in an business, laptops+games=not going to work, i know from experiance i used to have an Alienware laptop that is actually sort of trying to be a gaming laptop, it even had SLI, and it was a pile of... well i wont say what i was thinking lol Also if ANY of you had watched ANY of the EVE videos you might remeber them talking about making a client where it was sort of like MSN in a way, it had no 3D Visuals but had corp chat, market info and skill sheets. Seriously upgrading a few componants of your desktop pc to be compatable and capable of running EVE Online Premium is not going to cost you alot, and at the end of the day, who wants to sit and look at the old EVE graphics over Premium. --------------------------
Sri Nova	Posted - 2009.01.15 04:50:00 - [699] All i ask is that the devs watch out for hardware that claims to support sm2.0 like the intel onboard video chipsets. as these can mislead consumers and simple testing tools that query for said features and the chipset reports back .. yeah sure i can do it !! but whispers dont expect me to do it well. leaving consumers confused as to why they are only getting 4 fps same goes for sm 3.0 make sure the onboard video chipsets can handle the client or be sure to put in a very verbal exclusion telling consumers that their onboard video is not up to the task . otherwise than that i look forward to making eve pretty
Rufus MacMaranth Gallente Shadow Front	Posted - 2009.01.15 04:59:00 - [700] Originally by: Zeko Rena Edited by: Zeko Rena on 15/01/2009 04:54:09 Edited by: Zeko Rena on 15/01/2009 04:51:44 Wow i never relised it but boy EVE-Online must really have alot of casual gamers playing it, to be honest, if you cant run EVE-Premium you pretty much have a box that should be on a scrap yard. Im guessing the only reason alot of people here have such crap machines is because there casual gamers and spending money on there machine to keep it at least slighty upto date is like throwing money down the toilet? Granted EVE-Premium may be a struggle for alot of laptops, but only noobs are gamers on laptops, laptops are not BUILT for gaming its fairly obvious. Your all posting laptop models and hardware that is not made for playing games its made for running Microsoft Office in an business, laptops+games=not going to work, i know from experiance i used to have an Alienware laptop that is actually sort of trying to be a gaming laptop, it even had SLI, and it was a pile of... well i wont say what i was thinking lol Also if ANY of you had watched ANY of the EVE videos you might remeber them talking about making a client where it was sort of like MSN in a way, it had no 3D Visuals but had corp chat, market info and skill sheets. Seriously upgrading a few componants of your desktop pc to be compatable and capable of running EVE Online Premium is not going to cost you alot, and at the end of the day, who wants to sit and look at the old EVE graphics over Premium. EDIT: Oh and another thing i am a 3D Artist currently on a game development course, all you people saying there too lazy to make a set of classic graphics for everything, do you know HOW much more time and money would have to be invested to do that, your looking at two pipelines, which means double the time. So either you spent a little bit of money and get a system that is worthy of the name computer or CCP spends more money and time to make a low poly, low texture resolution set of ships that are going to look crap so you can carry on playing EVE-Classic which is now an EXTREMLY dated graphics engine. MMORPGs are a very compedative genre to be in, you have to keep ahead of everyone else and a dated graphics engine is going to pull EVE down So, you are telling us you are a social ****** that likes to sit in a room by yourself. A number of us can quite happily game in the living room while talking to our partners who may be watching TV and who do not game. This game has quite a few adults in its subscriber base. Laptops are perfect in this scenario. It works now, we are upset at them breaking something that works for a bunch of WoW graphics nerds. Cheers, Ruf.

Zeko Rena Caldari Tankt	Posted - 2009.01.15 05:09:00 - [701] Edited by: Zeko Rena on 15/01/2009 05:09:26 Quote: So, you are telling us you are a social **** that likes to sit in a room by yourself. A number of us can quite happily game in the living room while talking to our partners who may be watching TV and who do not game. This game has quite a few adults in its subscriber base. Laptops are perfect in this scenario. It works now, we are upset at them breaking something that works for a bunch of WoW graphics nerds. No im telling you that this is the Video Games Industry, it is a compedative industry that is very dynamic and constantly changing, heres an idea for you, buy a desktop pc, put it in the living room, play EVE Premium, talk to partner, live in harmony. You know the way you have written that implys that you play EVE 24/7, your making it sound like you couldent simply LOG OFF and go talk to your partner for several hours, then go back to EVE for an hour or two. Laptops are perfect if you want to do office work you couldent get done in at work, and can now do in the lounge, i dont know how you cant grasp this, but they are not MADE for playing video games, sure some of them might give it a try but you will be putting extreme pressure on the hardware, for one example the heat, laptops have ** cooling and gaming runs everything run hot. I also find it funny that you use WoW as an example, that game has graphics that are not a whole lot better then EVE Classic, you could have at least used an example of a high end 3D fantasy MMORPG like Age of Conan or Warhammer Online lol.
WheatGrass Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.15 05:11:00 - [702] I don't mind the change but please do give us another client that will run on >= ten year old junk. That way we can change skills, work the market, and do other in-station stuff -other than walking in stations. Thank you. I no longer have a T/S 1000 or T/S 2068. So, would a web / Java based client be feasible or just a web page? Also, how about making the new client selectable between DirectX and OpenGL? Perhaps that would make things a bit easier for the linux Wine crowd and Cenega. Thank you for all the new toys.
Koyama Ise Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2009.01.15 05:18:00 - [703] Originally by: WheatGrass I don't mind the change but please do give us another client that will run on >= ten year old junk. That way we can change skills, work the market, and do other in-station stuff -other than walking in stations. Thank you. I no longer have a T/S 1000 or T/S 2068. So, would a web / Java based client be feasible or just a web page? Also, how about making the new client selectable between DirectX and OpenGL? Perhaps that would make things a bit easier for the linux Wine crowd and Cenega. Thank you for all the new toys. I know you mean good but making both an Open GL and DirectX client I believe would defeat the purpose of phasing out SM 1. Because in the end you'd have 2 different rendering engines which may or may not need new textures/models.
Marcus Arcturus Caldari Promethean Industries	Posted - 2009.01.15 05:34:00 - [704] I don't really know what my specs are and don't much care as long as they work. Frankly if you guys bring out a minimum spec that is better than what I have I'll simply upgrade. Keep the game in top form is my opinion. People who love the game will follow on as will I. MA
Aldiree Antima Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.15 05:52:00 - [705] Edited by: Aldiree Antima on 15/01/2009 05:52:58 Originally by: Zeko Rena Laptops are perfect if you want to do office work you couldent get done in at work, and can now do in the lounge, i dont know how you cant grasp this, but they are not MADE for playing video games, sure some of them might give it a try but you will be putting extreme pressure on the hardware, for one example the heat, laptops have **** cooling and gaming runs everything run hot. Stop throwing silly generalizations around. Pc/Laptop/Netops are multipurpose devices with various flavors! The userbase decide what they want to do with their rigs. The last 20+x pages are the perfect evidence that many people play eve on Laptops and Netops. PS: My opinion ~ WAR graphics are solid nothing more. Some WOW:BC and later Content looking better then WAR
Riprion Gallente Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.01.15 05:54:00 - [706] For those of us who don't want to be stuck in front of a desktop in a dark little room and will be upgrading our laptops, here is a good reference for the mobile video cards. www.notebookcheck.net I'm thinking of looking at an Asus n50vn with a nvidia 9650m gt in the $1000US range. It should last a while. This all brings up a more important issue that needs to be addressed. As many people have pointed out, a great deal of the gameplay requires absolutely zero graphics to be playable. I'm thinking skill training, lab and factory installs, etc. We should be able to do all this from any computer that has an internet connection. I would much rather see that instead of SM3 only next December. Oh yeah thanks for the paltry 2 months notice on SM1 CCP. A$#&#(&#(&(
Lady Lard GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.15 05:57:00 - [707] Edited by: Lady Lard on 15/01/2009 05:58:49 CCP, ask your CFO if making 18.91% of your current subscribers unable to use your product is a good idea. Source: Steam Hardware Survey
facialimpediment Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.15 06:19:00 - [708] Originally by: Lady Lard Edited by: Lady Lard on 15/01/2009 05:58:49 CCP, ask your CFO if making 18.91% of your current subscribers unable to use your product is a good idea. Source: Steam Hardware Survey I'm just going to repeat this. http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ CCP needs to take a look at that link, track it in the next few months, then decide if it's such a good idea to alienate so many people still on 2.0 cards. Saying that in one year (again, in this terrible economy) that number will go down to 3% is asinine.
Aranis Nax	Posted - 2009.01.15 06:31:00 - [709] Originally by: Lady Lard Edited by: Lady Lard on 15/01/2009 05:58:49 CCP, ask your CFO if making 18.91% of your current subscribers unable to use your product is a good idea. Source: Steam Hardware Survey Looking at that survey I'd rather say it looks like it's closer to half, if you watch the top right graph it says 14.1% are using sub DX9 sm 2 hardware, 7.83% is using sm2 and 29.3% is 2.0b and 3.0(looking at the detail list below it's a significant portion of them only sm 2b). Though the trend appears to be moving towards 3.0+ it would appear that it won't be a significant portion of the market in less then a year. I can understand the dropping of classic, it doubles the workload(and it looks aged after 6+ years). But if what you, CCP Explorer, said is true that the 2.0 shaders are automatically generated based on 3.0 shaders, then I would think dropping the 2.0 support is unnecesary and would prevent Eve online from alienating more players then dropping classic is already doing(though if the hardware someone is using is that old, I don't see why they could not spend some money on a budget build that can run the premium Lite easily). One final point, and I hate to say it, but look at World of Warcraft. Their game is from 2004(right?) and part of their success is that their hardware requirements are pretty low even for when they launched. Originally by: Wow system reqs. PC System Requirements OS: Windows XP / Windows Vista (with latest Service Packs) Processor: Minimum: Intel Pentium 4 1.3 GHz or AMD Athlon XP 1500+ Recommended: Dual-core processor, such as the Intel Pentium D or AMD Athlon 64 X2 Memory: Minimum: 512 MB RAM (1GB for Vista users) Recommended: 1 GB RAM (2 GB for Vista users) Video: Minimum: 3D graphics processor with Hardware Transform and Lighting with 32 MB VRAM Such as an ATI Radeon 7200 or NVIDIA GeForce 2 class card or better Recommended: 3D graphics processor with Vertex and Pixel Shader capability with 128 MB VRAM Such as an ATI Radeon X1600 or NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GT class card or better
TalonClark	Posted - 2009.01.15 06:41:00 - [710] Edited by: TalonClark on 15/01/2009 06:43:58 250.000 * 15Ç * 14% = 525.000Ç per month Now, CCP, an expansion is 6 months right (2 per year), so the question is: do you safe 3.150.000Ç per expansion if you dont do the classic-client anymore? Or are the fancy-stuff devs poking the CEO to make their lives easier without having calculated the costs? Wouldnt surprise me if this devblog just came up because of a discussion in a ccp-meeting he? ;)

Magikiller	Posted - 2009.01.15 06:52:00 - [711] I'd like to address the 3%-5% issue first. While this advancement in the game code will not directly affect me, the three to five percent who happen to be friends of mine will be left in the dark. To upgrade the code to simplify programming issues is understandable but CCP is selling a product to us, the paying consumer, and with the exclusion of some the customer base will decline due to an inability to comply with upgraded hardware requirements. Not only does it create a bad situation for the excluded but to me it does not seem like a good business decision either. ôWhat we'd like to do is a two step approach to ensure that EVE continues to be jaw-dropping gorgeous ô Secondly I'd like to commend the developers for continuing to improve and expand Eve but there is a heavy emphasis placed on appearance. (My God Eve actually has content!) Eve is much more than pretty graphics, it is a game that forces intellectuality, cunning and resourcefulness out of its players and that to me transcends flashy graphics. That being said, I'd like to say that if improvements are to be made, it sounds as if they are being planned in a logical progression.
Zanmaru Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.01.15 07:01:00 - [712] I sympathize for the laptop users, but you desktop users do know a PCI-E card that supports 2.0 will set you back all of $24 + shipping if purchased off newegg, right? Its less than most games charge for expansions, and allows your PC to play games from around the Half-life 2/Doom 3 era. Finding a decent AGP card is trickier, but with a bit of searching a Geforce 6600 can be had for around that price, which is capable of running full Premium with some settings turned down. The move away from 2.0 in winter is ill-advised, however. I strongly urge the devs to think twice about that, given all the laptop-user feedback. ---------------------- It's cold comfort, for the ones without it... To know how they struggled, how suffered about it. We each pay a fabulous price for our visions of paradise.
Marie deMedici	Posted - 2009.01.15 07:53:00 - [713] i have a 945GM chipset which apparently supports SM2.0 , but i dont know how well. I can run classic ok now. If SM2.0 goes and or I cannot run the SM2.0 version, I will go too since I cant afford to replace this laptop now or get a proper gaming computer. This laptop is like 2.5 years old so it works fine otherwise. As a sidenote couldnt you just make an SM1.0 flatshaded elite-lookalike shader that would give us traders and industrialists a chance to play. I dont really care about all the eyecandy, I just want a working overview and market window.
Asiroth	Posted - 2009.01.15 08:31:00 - [714] i also have a laptop that is year old with 2.00 GHZ, 2gb ram and ****ty video card with 380 mb that it steals from ram. i am running normal client with not much stress but it won't display premium graphics good. i dont mind new client as long as it is as light as the old one so i don't have to change machine.
Frost miner	Posted - 2009.01.15 08:39:00 - [715] will my old travelmate 250 run the new eve client? i cant afford a new laptop or pc. gfx card a Intel« 852GME i bet it wont work :(
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2009.01.15 08:42:00 - [716] Mixed feelings about this, but at least they've given people 3 months notice. On a personal note, the Laptop (nvidia onboard 5400 chipset with 256mb) I use for the mining/alt wont be able to handle the change, and my primary box (Nvidia 7600GT, with 512mb) will probably just be able to as it struggles with Premium at the moment. So looks like I'll be getting a new box, about 2 months earlier than previously intended. Question is what do i give up????
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.15 08:58:00 - [717] Edited by: Andrue on 15/01/2009 09:01:47 Originally by: Zeko Rena Wow i never relised it but boy EVE-Online must really have alot of casual gamers playing it I'm sure it does. Eve's skill system also appeals to casual gamers far more than the usual grind, grind, grind of MMORPGs. Quote: to be honest, if you cant run EVE-Premium you pretty much have a box that should be on a scrap yard. Thanks for your opinion. When you're all grown up and have a job, mortgage and family to feed you will hopefully realise that even if you have the money available to upgrade a computer it isn't often the best thing to do. This probably comes as a shock to you and to many people here but there are more important things in adult life than upgrading personal computers. Quote: Im guessing the only reason alot of people here have such crap machines is because there casual gamers and spending money on there machine to keep it at least slighty upto date is like throwing money down the toilet? Hmmm. Maybe you do understand. Quote: Granted EVE-Premium may be a struggle for alot of laptops, but only noobs are gamers on laptops Er...no. I use a laptop fairly often. I'm not a noob. My character is probably one of the oldest contributing to this thread. Quote: laptops are not BUILT for gaming its fairly obvious. True. OTOH some are very capable at the moment of doing the mundane day-to-day tasks of Eve and for keeping in touch with friends in-game. My perspective is simply that if I can't use my current laptop to at least log in and do station-based stuff I lose convenience. I still have my desktop for when I want to play the game properly but it's not convenient to have get up from my comfy chair in order to go upstairs and boot up a desktop. Sometimes I'm away from home and then I have a choice:Laptop or no login. Upgrading a laptop is even more stupid (IMO) then upgrading a desktop. That's really money down the toilet. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Yassarin Minmatar New Musketeers	Posted - 2009.01.15 08:59:00 - [718] http://www.notebookcheck.net/ATI-Mobility-Radeon-9700.2169.0.html So I am ok for another year and then screwed. I am a serious gamer, however I travel a LOT and the laptop is the only consistant Eve contact I have. I lose this when they remove Shader II - meaning that my sub will be worthless. _____________________ I'm not afraid to die My soul will carry on You can't kill me I'm Imortal
Mss Smith	Posted - 2009.01.15 09:02:00 - [719] Edited by: Mss Smith on 15/01/2009 09:02:19 Dont think my laptop will play it, was a freebie from work. Tosh R100. Plays classic eve fine, no issues at all. Not 100% sure on its specs but i think its something like; Trident XP4/cyber-XP4 32mb, i cant see this being able to run eve if i cant use the basic client any more. Yes i know i can go buy a new laptop, but heres the thing, i cant, having a house to pay for, kids to feed, food to buy, just lost 10% of my wage too, means money is a bit tight to go spend ú300 on a laptop just to play eve. Shame, was just getting into the game again. I hope CCP dont exclude us 'poor players' in the end. MsS
Eraggan Sadarr Phoenix Tribe	Posted - 2009.01.15 09:20:00 - [720] Edited by: Eraggan Sadarr on 15/01/2009 09:20:40 This might seem a bit off topic, but while we are at the whole different clients discussion: I would like to see the "Premium Ultra Extreme Lite" client: Fits on a 1GB USB stick or less Have no 3D accelerated requirements whatsoever Enables me to change skills! Trade on market/contracts Science/industry ... and of course i cannot fly to another station In short: enable all in station tasks. Now this would be a fantastic client. Eve Market Scanner - Marketlog comparisons

RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.01.15 10:20:00 - [721] I hope this doesn't get buried, but what about a no GFX option - just the Map display - i.e. with no rendering of models , so you could still operate in the station \| space with no nice effects to see - just using the Overview + map -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.15 10:33:00 - [722] it looks to me as if the issue is not just whether the majority of players can run the premium client on their hardware or not but whether they want to ! I have read every single post in this topic it`s virtually all i`ve been doing since this announcement was made. I upgraded my machine to an sm 3.0 capable AGP card months ago to run premium along with my wife on her s**y new quad core machine, but hey guess what ! I hated the premium content and went back to classic ,like quite a few people here i believe the gameplay is more important - but maybe that`s just us older players who actually remember Elite. my eldest son loves great graphics , but then no game ever written still appeals to him after he`s played it for 2 weeks. so is this the sort of player base you want ??? BTW the reason all i`ve been doing is reading this forum since the announcement is that without the ability to play the way i want to , i just don`t have the heart left in me to play. IT`s a shame really my kids got me into this game because i was disillusioned with the rest of the * that`s available. so if as people have presumed that this change is all because of walking in stations, i really hope you manage to increase your player base and keep them as long as you`ve kept players who don`t care about gfx content,i really do wish that for you CCP... but the question is in a global economic crisis WILL you ?
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:05:00 - [723] so much for Ambulation being optional ... CCP forgot to mention the 2nd part: the whole client will require SM3. basicaly we cannot opt out of Ambulation (well we can cancel subs ...) good job CCP, very good job. I just hope you release the number of dropped subs after you drop SM2 clients.
Lara Torrin Gallente Torrin Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:12:00 - [724] I can currently play the game on my eeepc.. Well, I say play.. I can log in and setup contracts, and (semi)AFK hall through highsec.. My eee has a GMA950 which only support SM2 (and even then mostly in software). If SM2 were to be dropped then I wouldn't be able to play work, which is pretty much the only time I play with my 2nd account. So while I would continue to play with my main, I'd probably drop back to 1 subscription.
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:14:00 - [725] Hi. In my desktop PC I have a video card that cost Ç120 one year ago when I bought it; that's a lowest-end mainstream card. It supports Shader Model 4.0, runs EVE Premium with HDR on and high shadows and everything cranked up at 1680x1050 with 30 to 60 (VSync) FPS depending on situation. I also like the premium content a whole lot and haven't looked back since I tried it out for the first time. So, this whole deal does not touch me at all. It furthermore shows how extremely easy it is to run EVE premium content at acceptable framerates. I could probably double or triple my FPS effortlessly if I configured the video settings specifically for it. However, I'd like to say that I don't think discontinuing SM2 by the end of 2009 is a good idea, unless you have a very specific reason why you absolutely must develop art content for the winter expansion that is impossible to downscale in any way whatsoever. I don't think it is wise to phase out rendering paths faster than the industry introduces new ones (which generally happens around once per 2 years, with fluctuation). So 2 render paths phased out in three quarters of a year is ratehr drastic. If you must, I would phase out SM2 for the summer 2010 expansion, or whenever you decide to start developing SM4 or higher art assets (summer 2009 will see the advent of SM5 compatible video cards). There are a few issues that need to be understood when it comes to people upgrading their computers: The people who have new machines now are likely to keep having new machines. The people who are running 10 year old hardware now are likely to still run the same hardware in another 10 years, just because they can. This sadly enough means that it makes no sense to support a classic client as a transition measure, because these people will not transition. It sadly also means that these people will be lost as customers. Harsh, but this is reality - I doubt that any of the people who complain now that they cannot afford machines newer than 10 years at the moment will be planning an upgrade in the coming years either. It just won't be happening for them. The hardware industry and the laptop/netbook boom. It's the hip thing of today. If you buy a "clunky" desktop you are "so 2001", if you buy a "next-gen" notebook you are "trendy" and "equipped for the future". Desktops are dead and useless, laptop sales are skyrocketing! And look, you can even get a full-blown PC for just Ç200. That works really well because people are conditioned to tiny monitors and keyboards from their cellphones anyway. But what advertising never tells you is the fact that you're often buying half the performance of a desktop of the same price... half the performance of something that can two years later be upgraded for a faction of the original price to double in performance again. And then there's battery life. I am really sorry, but if there's one complaint about modern games I absolutely cannot understand, it is "I can't enjoy fancy graphics because they drain my battery". Welcome to the 21st century - where people use electricity to power machines! All in all: you bought a laptop, you did not buy a gaming computer, no matter what advertising told you. If you can run games, that's a great boon, not a privilege. If these games continue to move on to better technology, you will be left behind with an extremely unflexible piece of technology. And WHEN people buy a desktop, they often buy a Dell. Who has ripped off customers with completely horrible and and overpriced low-performance video cards for 10 years straight now. So all in all, I am advocating the step away from the classic client. But given the above reasons, you will probably lose too many customers if you axe the SM2 code path to quickly afterwards too. Those who can upgrade, will eventually; just give them time and don't put them off. Those who can't, won't; not now and not in 5 years.
eXeGee GBTeam G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:18:00 - [726] Edited by: eXeGee on 15/01/2009 11:21:52 Edited by: eXeGee on 15/01/2009 11:21:29 Edited by: eXeGee on 15/01/2009 11:19:57 I hope im wrong, but seems that ccp is followin the world's game trend - focus on dizzy, shiny graphics instead of focus on creating really good gameplay. Why sacrafice resources for better gameplay if you can make use of resources to catch more kids willing to pay the candy-look game? Yes... i hope im wrong... btw. i guess its end of linux client also?
eldeago	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:18:00 - [727] Ok times are hard everywhere, I just got laid off work and there is a million things my dollar must go to. I planned on some of it going here. But there is no way I can afford to do a computer make over at this time. As a computer tech, I will tell you you are going to find that most of your players are running low end machines. Besides being unfair to those, I think you will be losing about 60% of your clientele. Hell 55% of all computer users are still on 38k modems. I hate to see all the time I and others have put into our game go out the window, just so you guys can make it pretty! Hell the lag on the server was hec today. But then if you don't care for your players then have at it. Hope you don't I have changed my card twice already. I will not do it again just for a game. Even this one!! Stay in touch with reality and your players or you may be loseing more than you think! just my thoughts. oh I know that most players in my Corp are on low end machines. My thoughts anyway!
Sebies Mini	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:24:00 - [728] Edited by: Sebies Mini on 15/01/2009 11:25:52
CAPTAIN FAECES	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:26:00 - [729] Heh, people with multiple accounts saying they'll quit EVE because they can't afford to upgrade is pretty hilarious. Also, my laptop cost less than 400 euro almost a year ago, and has NVIDIA GeForce 8200M G (which supports 4.0). I definitely think EVE is doing the right thing with this.
Kaya Divine Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:26:00 - [730] My proposal is humble and balanced. If only dear CCP you could leave "Classic" up to December, and in Q2of 2010 change game to "Premium" only dependent on SE 3.0. So those who wish extra sparkly game will have it, and those with lower more redundant graphic cards/laptops/notebooks... would have at least 6 more months to adapt. Yet, another request is that before any change, you make possible that at least skill training (for start) can be changed via eve-online.com So that people, who because of some material problems, like illness, accidents etc, who can`t afford in this time period new lap/cards...could continue to train and not lose subscription time.

eldeago	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:28:00 - [731] Originally by: Snyder Aringdon Originally by: Black Phlanx Edited by: Black Phlanx on 14/01/2009 11:44:48 I can understand the concerns of those that game on older laptops.. but can we get real here? Those users still using SM1 laptops, look at this. The 8800 series of cards were top of the line a year ago... nvidia phased them out in 6 months with the 9800 series... now we have the 200 series of cards completely making the 9800's obsolete. If you cannot afford anything more expensive than your ATI 850PRO then you must be getting paid in stones or something at your job. Older cards are DIRT CHEAP. You can get a Geforce 8400 GS series card for under $45 USD! Technology moves forward, either try to keep up or get left behind. Most other companies wouldn't give a rats about losing older tech users (mainly because they don't still support anything lower than SM2) so don't take your anger out on CCP just because you want to keep your Pentium 1 laptop that's still running Windows 3.1 SM1 has been well overdue to get phased out. And like above said, if you're so against it then feel free to donate all your assets to me in a trade. I don't appreciate you lack of concern and knowledge of mobile devices. First of all, laptops, as I said, don't have external cards, so we are FORCED to buy new lappys/compys to get better cards. Even so, I have a pretty good business-grade laptop (Dell Latitude D620) and upgraded NVidia card (Quadro 110M), so it's not like I'm playing with a dinosaur laptop. But even with the upgrade (two years old), I only have 4/3 ShaderModel supported hardware. Second of all, having a part-time job, attending college and being married don't add up to very much discretionary income. I don't get "paid in stones," I just have a life. Not all of us are single apartment-dwelling gamers who have the time and money to invest heavily in their gaming rigs. Those of us who aren't would like to continue to play EVE as well. Well said not all of us have rich folk or top paying jobs. Get real man, tech may go forward but pay checks are going down.
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:29:00 - [732] Originally by: eXeGee btw. i guess its end of linux client also? Or maybe... it is the start of the Linux premium client?
eldeago	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:34:00 - [733] Originally by: Draku Rykenen I fully support the end of classic and the move to premium lite. For those that will no longer be able to play it might hurt, but anyone that can spend money monthly on a computer game CAN find the means to move to an SM 3 card. You can get those cards for extremely cheap these days as the first SM 3 cards are now several generations old. The game cannot pander to the lowest common denominator for ever. It isn't healthy for the game or fair to the subscribers that wish to see EVE progress. Technology marches on. Another one who thinks cause he has money to burn every one dose. Said thing is we don't!
eldeago	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:38:00 - [734] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Gerome Doutrande Are you also considering laptops when looking a sm 2/3 support? What would be the implications for those when going to sm 2 and especially sm 3? (Imagine a generic remark about laptops selling better than "proper PCs" here.) We are in fact considering laptops, most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3 (the GMA series as per here) Here we go again most new laptops. Hec every one lets run out and by a new laptop so we can play EVE. Think not.
dojocan81	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:49:00 - [735] Woot! 8700M GT wit PX 4.0 user here .. so iam ready for the next expansion!
outopian Gallente The Semi-Untied Union of Introverts	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:15:00 - [736] "...To accommodate older PCs and those who prefer to run twenty clients of EVE while they run SETI@Home and ray trace while compressing HD movies..." For once someone caters to MY Demographic. What are the chances of dual screen support? :-)
Lizzie B	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:26:00 - [737] Edited by: Lizzie B on 15/01/2009 12:32:16 Looking forward to a new client for my desktop machine but my laptop only supports SM2. Would like to still use it in work to change skills and chat, logging into station would be fine if you could make that possible. The alternative is make it possible to change skills without using the client ! Ahhhh i recon you are going to ditch Direct X and rewrite the graphics engine in OpenGL lol, would be a lot easier to run on OS other than Windoze :D
Karith Da'Kali	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:29:00 - [738] Originally by: CCP Zulupark We are in fact considering laptops, most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3 (the GMA series as per here) I found this useful for the intel Shader support http://www.intel.com/support/graphics/sb/cs-014257.htm My laptop is in the "Mobile Intel« 945GM Express Chipset Family" group. Which like most doesn't have hardware acceleration for graphics. I did however get confused over the difference between pixel and vertex shaders? but my question is.. Will the new client require graphics hardware acceleration?
Mistress Nyissa	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:30:00 - [739] Originally by: CCP Zulupark We are in fact considering laptops, most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3 (the GMA series as per here) Yes, and most new cars come with electric windows. Should we block all cars with manual windows from using the roads? I just find it hard to fathom that in a time when: 1) You're focusing on adding masses of new content 2) No-one has any money You would consider spending time out to make a move which will force people to spend money elsewhere, or stop spending it with you. This expansion could massively 'increase' your subscription count but instead you are taking measures to actively reduce it. Why not double the price of GTCs instead, you'd gain the extra money, probably lose just as many accounts and we'd still all think you were nuts. Just some constructive feedback, forget altering standards for 'allowing' us to play your game, focus on improving your standards (which you've had great sucess with recently, good job!) to get more people playing and make the game more enjoyable. And just an FYI, my laptop isn't particuarly old but it only supports SM 1.4, but I'm not worried because I rarely log in with it, usually on my SM3 supporting desktop. I just don't want to see loyal customers excluded because they can't spent more money not even to the game producer, to not improve but maintain their gameplay, at a time when everyone is tightening their belts...
Mordrake Orbital Anvil Technologies	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:36:00 - [740] Real question is when support for SLI config graphics card support will come in?

Ravenja	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:36:00 - [741] While I'd rather see SM 1.3 (GF4Ti or Radeon 8500) as the minimum requirement, planing to kill SM 2.0 support by the end of the year is just insane! To CCP: Graphics are NOT your priority! And if you want to add some graphics features get in game support for multi screen setups and anti aliasing...
Wishpool	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:45:00 - [742] So is premium lite kinda like what we have now when you run the premium client but disable premium graphics? I play that way not because my PC can't handle it, but because I really dislike the premium graphics on some ships.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:51:00 - [743] This thread tells me, that CCP estimates on how many players that will be effected are way off the mark. I wonder who pulled those numbers out of their rear. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2009.01.15 13:05:00 - [744] Originally by: Jowen Datloran I wonder who pulled those numbers out of their rear. Must be zulupark, it is the only thing he does well, pulling things out of his arse. --
Nienna Fael Sininen Talo	Posted - 2009.01.15 13:15:00 - [745] Originally by: Karith Da'Kali I found this useful for the intel Shader support http://www.intel.com/support/graphics/sb/cs-014257.htm My laptop is in the "Mobile Intel« 945GM Express Chipset Family" group. Which like most doesn't have hardware acceleration for graphics. I did however get confused over the difference between pixel and vertex shaders? but my question is.. Will the new client require graphics hardware acceleration? GMA950 series support shader model 2.0 With the mini laptops being all the rage, I find it very useful being able to change my skills and manage market orders on my EEE PC 1000h equipped with Intel GMA945. With 2.0 support, I'll be able to happily keep on doing whatever I did before but if 2.0 support is stripped in favor of 3.0, mini laptops won't be able to launch the game anymore.
Eleanor DeAquitaine Gallente Gallente Entertainment	Posted - 2009.01.15 13:20:00 - [746] Edited by: Eleanor DeAquitaine on 15/01/2009 13:21:44 If shader 2 support is dropped I will be unable to log in on my notebook even to make skill changes which would be very annoying. If the "lite" client is nothing more than the shader 3 graphics automatically downsampled to shader 2, and it doesn't require the art people to put out significant extra work to maintain, WHY not keep that client going past the end of the year? I mean, if all you need are computers to process the downsampling, why not? Having the game run on as many computers as possible is in everyone's best interest isn't it? Forcing people into hardware upgrades in a recession year will mean lost subscribers.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2009.01.15 13:24:00 - [747] Just adding my 2-cents hoping this 'premium lite' won't happen. I like to hop on eve at work during lunch, and that crappy computer can only handle classic client (I don't think it can do shader or whatever). Please keep ghetto classic alive!
Eleanor DeAquitaine Gallente Gallente Entertainment	Posted - 2009.01.15 13:27:00 - [748] Originally by: Hikaru Kai It's not CCP's fault the economy is in the tank. Indirectly Americans are to blame for their "woes" since they stupidly voted in a president that ruined not just the economy but pretty much ever aspect of your country. CCP is trying to move on, move ahead in the development of their game. If people *** and moan about upgrading 6-10 year old hardware, on the basis they cannot afford sub $100 component(s), then they shouldn't be playing the game in the first place. This ing American attitude of wanting everything for nothing, without any work, always a "me me me" attitude, sickens me. Get over yourselves. America is not the ing centre of the universe, no matter how many attempts at installing Freedom in other countries you fail at. Stop *ing. Stop it. Originally by:** Mikalya ... So the question remains: Does CCP want to be even a more niche game requiring hardware components that a large number of their potential clients cannot meet, or will they understand that the economy is in the tank and people aren't going to upgrade equipment just to play a game? ... Great. So we can't even discuss the EVE client without some America bashing. This makes me wish my Grandfathers HADNT gone over there to prevent everyone from having to speak German.
Neylan	Posted - 2009.01.15 13:32:00 - [749] Originally by: Pivalak Originally by: farfrael How about Linux? Are you planning to continue supporting this OS? My thoughts exactly. I was looking forward to the release of an official Premium client for Linux, at last, but given the silence CCP is maintaining on that subject, I'm beginning to fear they may have decided to discontinue it. Please prove me wrong! :) GREAT! First Atari got in contact with Bioware and Never Winter Nights 2 lost its Linux und Mac support (not to mention the game wasn't as good as NWN 1). And now Atari want's to make some money with Eve Online and suddenly it's important that Eve gets better graphic at the cost of Linux support.
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.15 13:39:00 - [750] I agree with the previous poster (Neylan at time of writing). I just did a quick poll of friends in RL who play eve and those friends i`ve made online (more than 200 in all) and of those who already have the hardware nescessary nearly 80% choose to play the classic version. Makes it kind of moot whether others can upgrade or not. Are you changing this for us the players , yourselves or are you doing it for ATARI

Wacktopia Infinity Miners Union Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr	Posted - 2009.01.15 13:42:00 - [751] Edited by: Wacktopia on 15/01/2009 13:42:49 Quote: Step 1: In Apocrypha, March 10th, we discontinue support for ShaderModel 1, making ShaderModel 2 (GeForce FX (5 series) or ATi R300 series cards or compatible) the minimum requirement and discontinue the "Classic client" version of EVE, replacing it with "Premium Lite" Step 2: In the Winter Expansion 2009 we are considering discontinuing support for ShaderModel 2 and make the minimum specification ShaderModel 3(GeForce 6 class cards or ATi x1300 or compatible) I have a laptop with 945GM Intel built-in graphics, which I bought before starting to play EVE. Luckily, the current client supports it. It doesnt support SM3, but not sure about SM2. EVE is the only game I play and I probably wont run out and buy a new laptop if it stops working on my current one. Not because I cant simply afford it but because I really dont want to spend upwards of ú300 just to carry on playing a game that currently works for me. From my perspective, I hope SM2 works on my lappy and CCP decide not to drop it at the end of 2009. CCP: Please provide a "SM2 and SM3 Checker Program" so those of us who are unsure about our laptop performance can check easily. Please do not post that link to Wikipedia article as it makes for an unfriendly read.
Ming Mongol Cerebellum Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.15 13:48:00 - [752] The real joke here is that CCP expects people to shell out cash to upgrade their luxury entertainment platforms at a time when the world is going to hell and disposable income is rapidly diminishing. Makes me wonder if there is anyone thinking over there.
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.15 13:52:00 - [753] No. The real joke is that the ones who want fancy graphics aren`t posting on here because they are off playing Halo 3 on their fancy 47 inch plasma TV, they are not playing eve or reading the forums.
Wacktopia Infinity Miners Union Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr	Posted - 2009.01.15 14:01:00 - [754] Companies want to make profits and push products forward. That's the way of the world. Making changes that are detromental to core business is unlikely but you cannot keep all the people happy all the time. My vote goes for... Upgrade graphics to SM2 and SM3 2009: Yes :) Remove the SM2 option at the end of 2009: No :( Give people (like me) a little longer to get themselves up to SM3.
Azure Dreams	Posted - 2009.01.15 14:06:00 - [755] Looks good I see some want Eve to look like this
Des Jardin Ad Astra Vexillum Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 14:19:00 - [756] The most interesting aspect of this entire thread is that EVE players do not play the game for the graphics. Graphics are nice but it is not why people pay their monthly subscriptions. Accordingly, a decision that affects the player base conditioned on a premise that better graphics makes EVE better is unfounded and, likely, detrimental in the long run. Unfortunately, game development is as agile as a supertanker. Apocypha will arrive in March. Some subscribers will no longer be able to play, but the true effect of the client change will probably be masked by the increase in subs that result from CCP's better marketing efforts. Although potentially skewed, this thread bears out that graphics may be what draws people to EVE, but it is not what keeps folks around. Des Jardin P.S. Remember, the definition of insanity is to repeat doing something that fails in the hope that the outcome will be different the next time.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.15 14:19:00 - [757] Originally by: Ming Mongol The real joke here is that CCP expects people to shell out cash to upgrade their luxury entertainment platforms at a time when the world is going to hell and disposable income is rapidly diminishing. Makes me wonder if there is anyone thinking over there. No the real joke is that they expect you to do it so that you can keep paying them money.
Koala Bare The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.01.15 14:22:00 - [758] Originally by: CCP Explorer As CCP Zulupark said in his blog, at this time we are only considering making SM3 the minimum specification in the Winter Expansion in Q4 2009. We are soliciting your input on the matter. yeah, but we've seen Zulupark before. If you want to sollicite input, it's time for the eve client itself to start collecting the data on login and do some proper datamining over the course of the year. That way you can actually do decent projections.
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.15 14:25:00 - [759] I`d agree with the datamining on login but make sure it logs which client you use , as well as your hardware config .
Petar Quaresma GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.15 14:27:00 - [760] Edited by: Petar Quaresma on 15/01/2009 14:29:21 ABANDON GRAPHICS UPGRADES - EVE DOESN'T REQUIRE THEM Eve makes for good screenshots but other than that, there isn't a need for upgraded graphics. "Oh no, my upgraded harbinger is spinning in a circle shooting a little laser beam at another terrible ship model, please don't take away my upgraded graphics!" Maybe if you focused on real game upgrades, like making 0.0 not suck or making PVE elements actually fun you would have more than 40k people (20k of which are alts) playing your game at the same time. Accept the fact that Eve is an 'OLD' game and that people play it as a novelty. Work on making the game stable for as many people as possible.

Alpha Dragh	Posted - 2009.01.15 14:33:00 - [761] Edited by: Alpha Dragh on 15/01/2009 14:35:04 yes, yes, yes fully agree on the dev blog, even if i also use an old laptop to play sometimes. why spend time and money on doing the same work 2 times ? Most people really do want eyecandy and do have the hardware. Ofcourse ... in a forum you'll mostly see complains. That's normal ;) Doesnt mean you should not do it... mooar nice gfx ! (but we should be able to switch it off / on for fleetbatles and such) // edit : next poster : EVE IS NOT an old game. It's one of the best examples of a ongoing developing game. ofcourse i dont use the great gfx in pvp , but i like to look at it when i am NOT in a pvp fight.
Toninu	Posted - 2009.01.15 14:36:00 - [762] Hi, While i do appreciate that CCP is making an effort to improve the game looks etc I would like to point out that gameplay and bugs are more important to focus on. I have a desktop with 6800gt and a laptop with intel 965 express chipset and eve classic runs better on my laptop. And for those saying play it on yur desktop, I think they should try seting up a bedside table and play eve while near their partner. I used to play wow but it is too much demanding on the hours and always actively attached to the keyboard. On the other hand eve is a more relaxed game and the fact that most of the gameplay goes on preparation and setup i find it more challenging and amusing. I am for letting people use their old pc to still play. I think that being able to play on a laptop is a huge advantage on other games. I agree with a small client to check market and skill change I am in favour of a skill queue system (at least 3 skills) I think CCP must stop podding system or let people insure their implants :) But this may be the irrelevant view of an old 30 year old dude that still thinks he is a little boy playing pc games ^^. only my 2 euro cents
Hollier	Posted - 2009.01.15 14:41:00 - [763] well said TONINU i wish i had your way with words
CyberGh0st Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.15 14:56:00 - [764] Edited by: CyberGh0st on 15/01/2009 15:03:06 Edited by: CyberGh0st on 15/01/2009 15:00:35 Just want to clear up some misinformation about the Steam Hardware Survey : 1. There are more then 14% users with a DX8 or lower card, this is SM 1.x However I am pretty sure this number will be alot less amongst EVE Online users, so the 5% SM 1.x users claimed by CCP will probably be quite close. 2. There are more then 10% users with a DX9 SM 2.0(b) card You get this number when you take the 7,83% SM 2.0 users and add the 2,2% SM 2.0b users However, it does not stop there, as I am sure that the percentage of EVE users with SM 2.0(b) cards is higher then the percentage of Steam users with SM 2.0(b) cards, as EVE users were never forced to upgrade up until now. 3. How does CCP go from 95% SM 2.0 users now, to 97% SM 3.0 users in Q4 2009? With the economical issues and alot of laptop users that just can't upgrade, I think it is safe to to say that the 97% SM 3.0 users by Q4 2009 is unrealistic, especially for EVE Online users. Well if you force people, then you may be right, but then it is just a gamble of who will and who won't upgrade. It is clear that we need an EVE online survey about this, before CCP looses customers and we loose friends and enemies.
LordRyan77 Gallente Ooops Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:08:00 - [765] Originally by: Sinigogo Originally by: LordRyan77 Originally by: mattimus9 i don't understand why you people are getting all annoyed? to run an amazing game on a graphics technology now 7yrs old is amazing. they say that most computers should be replaced after 4yrs due to technology upgrades. to run any new game on a computer that old is always a struggle and CCP have to upgrade in the end otherwise EVE will become obsolete as other games improve. I won't be able to use my laptop but luckily I have a PC and a new PC to be able to take version 3 you can get for about ú400 so maybe its time for you to upgrade!!! Thats all fine and dandy as long as I don't have to replace my +$3,000(+ú2,300) 24 MONTH old PC. If you managed to spend that amount of money on a PC 24 months ago that wont run SM2 graphics you're not really qualified to comment. That said, an SM2 capable card costs about as much as 10 packs of cigarettes these days. And also, 2 years is a small eternity on the hardware end of things. EVE is one of the very few games that actually runs on ancient cards to begin with, and this change will not affect that significantly. Go CCP! More dev time on making things better, less on supporting cheap bastards, hurray! I'm good, I went home and checked. I got GeForce 6 Series. I'm a console man, EVE is the only PC game I play. Anyways back to the point, classic is a selling point for alot of people. Like many I use my laptop when traveliong.
Zey Nadar Gallente Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem Einherjar Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:11:00 - [766] Edited by: Zey Nadar on 15/01/2009 15:14:07 Originally by: Rex Lashar The biggest problem its going to cause is for people who want to log in and play or change skills from their laptops that have ****ty Intel chipsets. Unfortunately, there's probably a ton of those. While I have a desktop with the specs to run this game, I originally loved how Eve was able to run on my laptop while some other MMOs did not. Then I could use a second account from my laptop for various reasons coordinating with my main account (hauling when im mining, scouting etc). I would still like this to continue without having to upgrade two machines. If playing eve on my laptop becomes impossible, I may propably drop my second account. ps. Update graphics for like planets and asteroids before you update overall graphics please.
Cornelius Murphy CEI Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:32:00 - [767] I just ran the "TechPowerUp GPU-Z utility, as linked in this thread earlier. According to that, my laptop is running an ATI Mobility Radeon 9600/9700, and looks like it should be compatible. Link to the stats: My Video Card I am guessing the most important part is the "SM2.0". Can some tech head confirm I will be ok after March 10? My sub runs out in 5 days and there's no point extending it if not!
David LeBatas The Vorlon Empire Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:34:00 - [768] I am not sure if this was raised or covered in the thread, as there are too many posts that have nothing to offer but winge or specs (in the hope their crapped out old monster will still be supported). So far, I have found the Eve client surprisingly robust on many machines, but what does concern me is parrallel clients. I don't use the premium client that much (not that I can't run it, or don't like it), but because I always run three clients at the same time. I know that many others do more and I distinctly remember that CCP demoed 10 parrallel clients before. Given that each additional client equates to increased revenue for CCP, I would be very surprised if they make it harder to run clients in parrallel. However, if the new "lite" version has the same problems as running parrallel premium clients, I see a major problem comming up. I am not going to rack up multiple PCs, so I can play musical chairs to move between my three accounts. How is this new client with SM3 going to work with multiple clients running, even on the most highly powered PCs?
Petar Quaresma GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:35:00 - [769] Originally by: Zey Nadar Edited by: Zey Nadar on 15/01/2009 15:14:07 Originally by: Rex Lashar The biggest problem its going to cause is for people who want to log in and play or change skills from their laptops that have ****ty Intel chipsets. Unfortunately, there's probably a ton of those. While I have a desktop with the specs to run this game, I originally loved how Eve was able to run on my laptop while some other MMOs did not. Then I could use a second account from my laptop for various reasons coordinating with my main account (hauling when im mining, scouting etc). I would still like this to continue without having to upgrade two machines. If playing eve on my laptop becomes impossible, I may propably drop my second account. ps. Update graphics for like planets and asteroids before you update overall graphics please. Ah yes, the all critical "asteroid and worthless planet" graphic update. Certainly a critical update to a game that needs massive gameplay overhauls to 0.0 and highsec.
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:38:00 - [770] Originally by: Neylan GREAT! First Atari got in contact with Bioware and Never Winter Nights 2 lost its Linux und Mac support (not to mention the game wasn't as good as NWN 1). And now Atari want's to make some money with Eve Online and suddenly it's important that Eve gets better graphic at the cost of Linux support. Don't blame the NWN2 screw ups on Atari, that was 100% Obsidian's fiasco. I was in the NWN2 Toolset and Multi-player Betas, even our Beta Test Admin was getting annoyed with them My opinion of Atari went up during that period of time, my opinion of Obsidian turned into a burning hatred.....

LordRyan77 Gallente Ooops Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:44:00 - [771] Originally by: LordRyan77 Originally by: Sinigogo Originally by: LordRyan77 Originally by: mattimus9 i don't understand why you people are getting all annoyed? to run an amazing game on a graphics technology now 7yrs old is amazing. they say that most computers should be replaced after 4yrs due to technology upgrades. to run any new game on a computer that old is always a struggle and CCP have to upgrade in the end otherwise EVE will become obsolete as other games improve. I won't be able to use my laptop but luckily I have a PC and a new PC to be able to take version 3 you can get for about ú400 so maybe its time for you to upgrade!!! Thats all fine and dandy as long as I don't have to replace my +$3,000(+ú2,300) 24 MONTH old PC. If you managed to spend that amount of money on a PC 24 months ago that wont run SM2 graphics you're not really qualified to comment. That said, an SM2 capable card costs about as much as 10 packs of cigarettes these days. And also, 2 years is a small eternity on the hardware end of things. EVE is one of the very few games that actually runs on ancient cards to begin with, and this change will not affect that significantly. Go CCP! More dev time on making things better, less on supporting cheap bastards, hurray! I'm good, I went home and checked. I got GeForce 6 Series. I'm a console man, EVE is the only PC game I play. Anyways back to the point, classic is a selling point for alot of people. Like many I use my laptop when traveliong. Sorry at work had to cut response short. Anyways, I don't like classic. But like most eve players i am a working adult and spend a considerable amount of time playing on a laptop at a airport or a hotel room. As far as affording a new PC, of course I could but my 2 yo main PC performs amazingily. I have no problems running 4 premium clients. The point is why replace a PC that preforms cause one aspect of your use changes. So why am complaining, mainily for the people who don't read these forums. And because my 2nd PC and laptop will no longer work. LordRyan77
Dalmon Tar	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:54:00 - [772] Originally by: AnyOldIron No. The real joke is that the ones who want fancy graphics aren`t posting on here because they are off playing Halo 3 on their fancy 47 inch plasma TV, they are not playing eve or reading the forums. Sure! Thats why I use a nice and fancy new ubercomputer. Why should we guys concern about classic and HighDef? We just simple can play it ^^
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.15 16:09:00 - [773] Alright, I have no problem being forced to update my computer to play the game. I have an old Compaq V2000 series laptop that I run two classic clients on for mining and one for mission running. I'm definitly not sure whether it will be able to run premium light. Right now, I'm an active college student and I unfortanatly had to quit my job and am in the process of searching for a new one. I had plans to upgrade my computer ASAP, and had even just slapped a one year subscription on both of my Eve accounts. I need a way to change my skills, if I can't leave the station till I upgrade so be it, however I NEED a way to change skills etc while my account is active without actually having to log in to Premium lite (provided that my laptop cannot run premium lite, as I'm suspecting it cannot). This would not be difficult to implement, and guess what CCP, you still get my money. However don't lock people out just because they cannot go out and get a new computer on such short notice. In short: Forcing us to upgrade is fine. Just allow people to change their skills without being forced to login. ... Amateur sig maker Looking for work!
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.01.15 16:14:00 - [774] I've been playing Eve for 4 years, but never been able to get it to run well on my computers. I've installed a new graphics card and additional memory on my old computer just to play Eve, but I've always been disappointed with the results. I'm currently playing on a $300 Dell with integrated graphics and it is actually running better playing two accounts than on my "gaming" machine. One really frustrating thing about Eve is that performance has been getting worse as time goes on as CCP introduces improvements and fixes to make things "better" and "faster". At least with an off-the-shelf game I know how it will perform on the day I install it. I know that it's performance won't degrade if I keep playing it on the same computer. Please, please, please, at least give us the option to play without graphics effects that don't effect how we actually play the game. I would be fine with just the overview on a black screen. At least I would be able to get where I'm going and target the bogeys when needed. When my FPS is below 10 the graphics are pretty useless anyway. Someday I will get a rocking machine that I hope will get my FPS above 10, but in the mean time I will train Capital Ships V before the patch and cross my fingers. I hope I will be back after March 10.
Aldiree Antima Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.15 16:48:00 - [775] Originally by: Cornelius Murphy I just ran the "TechPowerUp GPU-Z utility, as linked in this thread earlier. According to that, my laptop is running an ATI Mobility Radeon 9600/9700, and looks like it should be compatible. Link to the stats: My Video Card I am guessing the most important part is the "SM2.0". Can some tech head confirm I will be ok after March 10? My sub runs out in 5 days and there's no point extending it if not! It looks OK, I think. Second opinion, plz.
Crassus Silverwolf Caldari Liberty Forces	Posted - 2009.01.15 16:58:00 - [776] CCP be wary of this change over and try not to rush to SM3 in the same year as switching to Premium Lite. Many of us players play EVE whenever we have an opportunity whether that is at home on the Uber PC/Laptop or at work on the 10 year old laptop/pc. This has been one of the great things about playing EVE, I can get to work and play secretly (or not depending on the Boss), at the very least it has enabled a good deal of the player base to move stuff about on auto pilot, leaving the evenings free to play the more exciting elements of EVE. I fully understand your desire to streamline your workloads etc but remember the graphics whilst amazing and beautiful should not be a barrier to entering the game on a low spec machine. So long as it does not mean double the work load in preparing upgrades and building ships etc please keep the Premium lite as low spec as possible. If I can no longer play on a low spec machine at least I know that my work productiviy will get better and therefore you are at least helping me to do my job without distraction... :)
Vorlich Dreculia Amarr Universal Business Solutions	Posted - 2009.01.15 17:15:00 - [777] Edited by: Vorlich Dreculia on 15/01/2009 17:20:02 Why did this post blank? I basically said that this is the most stupid idea ever; choosing to lose at least 5% of your customers in one fell swoop is not good business sense. Also if I am not able to run the game any more, I will want a full refund for the entire life of my accounts; CCP would be changing a product after I had purchased it, so that I could no longer use it. Similar cases have appeared in court in the UK and the companies have had to pay out.
Zan Zabar	Posted - 2009.01.15 17:22:00 - [778] i currently have cards that support sm4. and i would be interested in seeing eve support sli and physx cards.
Marcus Arelios Caldari Global Sheep Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.15 17:43:00 - [779] Even though the graphics updates are not wanted by most players, they are necessary. Graphics are what is going to bring new players in. Lets see, if you tell a prospective new player, well the game looks like crap, but its gameplay is fun and complicated...good chance they'll find something else to play. A lot of the current players grew up with EVE from before premium so we are just used to the older graphics and don't notice it as much, but the newer ones will. I full agree with CCP about updating the requirements, but I will agree with the players that pushing SM3 this soon might be a problem. SM2 is just fine, those cards are cheap and most laptops that play games support it, but SM3 is a little early yet. A lot of players need to understand that forcing SM3 is something they are considering, not something they said they would do. I'd imagine that post was kind of a feeler to see what we thought. After this I doubt they'd force SM3.
Vaerah Vain	Posted - 2009.01.15 17:59:00 - [780] Quote: Even though the graphics updates are not wanted by most players, they are necessary. Graphics are what is going to bring new players in. Lets see, if you tell a prospective new player, well the game looks like crap, but its gameplay is fun and complicated...good chance they'll find something else to play. A lot of the current players grew up with EVE from before premium so we are just used to the older graphics and don't notice it as much, but the newer ones will. It's necessary, of course. But look, Blizzard, the company that really have nothing to learn about getting huge amounts of subscriptions, upgraded their client from total rubbish to pixel shader + dynamic ligthing and my old computers can run it. Of course they will run with options turned off but they run. This is all you need to go on with your mining / lab / indy alts. Even Asteroids graphics would do.

Borgholio Minmatar Borgholio's Collective Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:13:00 - [781] Originally by: Ming Mongol The real joke here is that CCP expects people to shell out cash to upgrade their luxury entertainment platforms at a time when the world is going to hell and disposable income is rapidly diminishing. Makes me wonder if there is anyone thinking over there. Well keep in mind that these are the same kinds of people who were in charge of managing the Icelandic economy...and look what happened there. :-/ ----------------------------------- You will be assimilated...bunghole!
Marcus Arelios Caldari Global Sheep Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:36:00 - [782] Originally by: Borgholio Originally by: Ming Mongol The real joke here is that CCP expects people to shell out cash to upgrade their luxury entertainment platforms at a time when the world is going to hell and disposable income is rapidly diminishing. Makes me wonder if there is anyone thinking over there. Well keep in mind that these are the same kinds of people who were in charge of managing the Icelandic economy...and look what happened there. :-/ You mean the country that up until the global crash has had one of the world's best economies for about 10 years? The reason they crashed so hard was because the entire world crashed and they are a small country with a primary business of banks (and fishing). Changes affect them much greater than larger countries.
AlleyKat Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:47:00 - [783] Stating the obvious here; but when 2009 draws to a close, the Trinity II graphics update would have been released for two years, and currently has been available for a year. Do you think that would have been enough time to at the very least consider upgrading whatever laptop/desktop you were running EVE on? You must have realised that Trinity II is where CCP wanted to be, you must have realised that Ambulation looked very 'non-Classic' client to you? Not only that, I'm sure if I searched through the dev blogs and other community feedback, I could probably find details pertaining to the very existence of a graphics update for probably 12-18 months prior to the release of Trinity II. Possibly even that this update would be (originally) a DX 10.0 release? You may consider it unfair that EVE is strongly considering fading out SM2 by this year's close, and that this will effect your wallet, or, effect your ability to dual-box etc - but I have to be honest in my opinion and say this: I think you knew this day would come - and you should have planned ahead. Sorry. AK.
Marcus Arelios Caldari Global Sheep Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:47:00 - [784] Originally by: Toninu Hi, While i do appreciate that CCP is making an effort to improve the game looks etc I would like to point out that gameplay and bugs are more important to focus on. I have a desktop with 6800gt and a laptop with intel 965 express chipset and eve classic runs better on my laptop. And for those saying play it on yur desktop, I think they should try seting up a bedside table and play eve while near their partner. I used to play wow but it is too much demanding on the hours and always actively attached to the keyboard. On the other hand eve is a more relaxed game and the fact that most of the gameplay goes on preparation and setup i find it more challenging and amusing. I am for letting people use their old pc to still play. I think that being able to play on a laptop is a huge advantage on other games. I agree with a small client to check market and skill change I am in favour of a skill queue system (at least 3 skills) I think CCP must stop podding system or let people insure their implants :) But this may be the irrelevant view of an old 30 year old dude that still thinks he is a little boy playing pc games ^^. only my 2 euro cents I agree with your points, but what your saying is to put more focus on gameplay and bugs. I'm a software engineer and I can tell you, it must cost them ridiculous amounts of resources to maintain two asset libraries for the classic and premium. This change will allow them to use one asset library and put more focus on coding a single engine rather than two. With this change they can redirect resources to gameplay/bug fixes. I fully agree with CCP forcing SM2, SM3 is cutting it a little close, maybe wait until mid-2010 and it will be better. By then a lot of people should be rebuilding old SM1 machines anyways. "should" being the key word.
T Op	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:55:00 - [785] on thing to consider about 'industry standards' is that it is always a 'forced migration'... advances in CPU's caused advances in all pc systems... CPU went from 25mhz, to 133mhz..266..600..800..etc... meanwhile: ISA became PCI, became AGP, became PCIe... SIMMs became DIMMS, DIP's became jumpers, jumpers became 'whats a jumper???' BUS went from 15hz, to 1800mhz MEM went from 2kb sticks to 8gb sticks... et cetera.. et cetera.. et cetera.. program developers are always quick to take advantage of new hardware architecture. system requirements always rise, never fall. point is.. you either adapt, or you die. some of the systems people have been describing, sound like they can barely handle XP... really folks... if you are being left behind.. who's fault is it... bet those xbox360, playstation, or wii games really look great on that 48" 1080p though..
Zeko Rena Caldari Tankt	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:16:00 - [786] I wish at least one person on the whole forum had read the part from my post's that mentioned that in one of the EVE Fan Fest videos they discuss a sort of MSN type client they are working on that has no 3D visuals but allows you to access corp chat, market, and your skill sheets. I cant remeber what video it is but actually watch them and learn abit more about what is also on the way. Another thing is we dont know a whole lot about the premium lite client yet, just that it wont support SM 2.0 it still might have visuals close to the classic client who knows :) Please watch the EVE Fan Fest videos they are very cool to watch, and intresting, im sure there still on the EVE site under the video's section.
Tess Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:25:00 - [787] For what it's worth, I play on a Mini-Mac running an Intel GMA 950 chipset. I believe it supports ShaderModel 2.0. I'm a casual player; I've played Eve off and on over the years since 2003. If support for ShaderModel 2.0 went away; I would drop my subscription until I upgraded to the latest Mini-Mac which I'm guessing would support ShaderModel 3.0. I run my computers until they die so that wouldn't be for a while. Some of us don't care about the latest and greatest when it comes to computers. I bought the mini-Mac for work and usability. Playing Eve on my Mini-Mac is sort of a bonus. If my mini-Mac was no longer able to handle playing Eve, I wouldn't be heartbroken. But um, why do that to us? Keep support for SM 2.0 alive for a couple more years. It might be more work but it's also more iskies for you.
Carithon	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:31:00 - [788] Well, there goes all my plans on what I was going to do with this character. Son of a.... Hmmm... now I'll actually have to go out and get a life... oh, no's. "The Sun, mommy. It hurts."
Maxsim Goratiev	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:37:00 - [789] Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 15/01/2009 19:42:17 I am one of those luky people that have a good laptop (got one this cristmas) and have a desctop where i play crysis on very high, and in sertain areas get up to 200 fps in eve. Mostly it is slightly under 100 though. Quote: while they run SETI@Home and ray trace while compressing HD movies How did you know? I am 3D artist and spend alot of time raytrasing... Anctually, to those who cannot upgrade, eve has a fairly exp-encive subscription, so if you could, subscription for a couple of months costs as much as a healthy hargware upgrade.... geforse 8800 GTS costs 100 euro here, and in some cases you can get it cheaper...That is subscription for 5 months..This is likely to run trinity 2 with dx10... And if not i am getting SLI for crysis anyway... But there are cheaper grafics cards.... Yet, those who have laptops have a big problem... I welcome the change personally... yes, people who use laptops do have a problem, and i know how hard it is, new laptop is expensive, and you cannot just change the videocard.. PS: ALL intel internal grafics is evel.
Obento Jones	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:42:00 - [790] Oh now you tell us... I just bought a new computer over the weekend (putting a huge dent in my savings) just so I could use the premium client.

Pronas Scoopex Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:11:00 - [791] What i will encourage CCP is to do a patch for allow them to collect annonymous graphics card capacity. So they can saw exactly how many customers won't be able to play. If the graphics card is not compatible, ask the subscriber if he plan to upgrade and when. Personnaly my laptop have Radeon 9600 mobility and won't be able to play eve after shader 2.0 and don't need to change my laptop at all. My wife computer have Radeon 9700 and work like a charm when using alt or for her when playing civilization IV, don't see any need for upgrade to new one. Also this computer is AGP and good graphics card not exist anymore for AGP... So the best will be that's CCP should do a survey with customers participation, and the best will be have the annonymous collector for get stats and fact
farfrael Freelancer Union Unaffiliated	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:17:00 - [792] Originally by: Toad Black Edited by: Toad Black on 15/01/2009 00:53:36 Check the news. On the same day as this announcement, they announced public beta of premium content on OS/X. Which hopefully means premium content on Linux will follow shortly, since afaik OS/X uses opengl ... I don't care about hopefully, it should not be difficult to reply with a simple yes or no regarding their intention to keep supporting linux officially CCP has clearly been dodging the linux support question since it has been asked
Miklabjarnir Primus	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:27:00 - [793] What I miss in this zillion of comments is somebody who explans just why EVE needs the features of the "premium" client? I run classic on my macBook Pro, and I do not miss the graphics of my dual Opteron / GeForce 9600 GT 1GB running the premium version. Come on, just who runs a game like EVE for the eye candy? My advice would be to drop the features that require SM3 or newer, and concentrate graphics efforts on flexibilty and compatibility. The classic view enhanced by AA and anisotropic filtering when the hardware supports it would do wonders. This would solve the costs of maintaining two versions, look good enough for any serious gamer, and be fast enough even on weak hardware. Then, insead of pouring money into superficial fluff, the resources could be canneled into gameplay, AIs and content.
Elamef FyreStar	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:35:00 - [794] Being able to afford a card is not the problem. It is being able to afford a new motherboard, etc. that is compatible with the card. Also, it is a matter of laptops not being upgradable. I have multiple accounts that I actively play and with these changes I will be out. Yet another large company not wanting what is best for the buyer but what THEY think is best for the gamer. I ask, along with so many others, to not loss backwards compatibility with older hardware. Who cares if I can run premium graphics or not. I used em and thought it sucked and actually went back to Classic. Elamef Fyrestar/Izaa/Vixen Vicious/+ 1/2 dozen more
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:37:00 - [795] Originally by: Mara Rinn Edited by: Mara Rinn on 15/01/2009 02:17:36 Edited by: Mara Rinn on 15/01/2009 02:16:22 Originally by: Kagura Nikon The only thing that limits how many clients you can run is main system memory and CPU itself. In 9 of 10 cases will be memory bottlenecked (system, not video card) I have problems running two clients in Premium, but can run just fine in Classic, only because Premium uses far more texture memory than Classic. The bottleneck in my case is that the graphics card only has 128MB for texture memory. Multiple instances of the EVE client do not share textures, so I'll end up with the same textures loaded twice, effectively cutting the graphics card down to 64MB of texture memory for each client. In my case, I'd be able to run multiple independent clients on my laptop without any trouble if it was possible to turn textures off. One optimisation that CCP could make is for the one client to allow multiple simultaneous sessions, thereby keeping all the graphics assets in memory for only 1 client. Each flight window would be part of one application - this would allow other efficiencies such as only sending object details down the pipe once instead of once for each client as it jumps into system or loads the grid at the end of warping in. but that is completely unrelated to the SM used. My observations are upon people being worried on the SM2 to SM3 move. That move will have zero NEGATIVE impact result as long as your card has SM3 capabilities. Also if CCP wanted to do it right they could easily make both accounts running share the same textures resources. They just need to wake up and make the game client multi-account capable. The card drivers would solve the rest by themselves. That would completely remove the memmory factor from the multi account issue. The complain is a valid one but unrelated to shader models. But does not make less true that CCP should wake up and do something that is SIMPLE as sharing render contexts. And don't dare CCP to tell me this is difficult, I just implemented not long ago at work a shared rendering context between 10 tomographic 3d reconstruction viewers sharing the same resources in a single rendering process. Took me a few hours. Any well designed system with a well decoupled graphic system can do it as well. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Vorlich Dreculia Amarr Universal Business Solutions	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:39:00 - [796] Edited by: Vorlich Dreculia on 15/01/2009 20:41:49 To Miklabjarnir Primus: That's totally true. I've never known anyone who played this game for the graphics, they were always pretty bad, and won't ever be 'industry level'. People actively mock Eve because it is not graphical, and that's why I love it. Buy yeah, if CCP are going to cut off a large segment of their customer base (including me) I'd at least like to know why. Does the game need to be so much better? Aren't there loads of known graphical bugs anyway? Why not remodel ships to look a little nicer, or include more customisable features. Any development has to remain compatible for all players, otherwise from a customer service standpoint, it's abysmal.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:43:00 - [797] Originally by: Koyama Ise Originally by: WheatGrass I don't mind the change but please do give us another client that will run on >= ten year old junk. That way we can change skills, work the market, and do other in-station stuff -other than walking in stations. Thank you. I no longer have a T/S 1000 or T/S 2068. So, would a web / Java based client be feasible or just a web page? Also, how about making the new client selectable between DirectX and OpenGL? Perhaps that would make things a bit easier for the linux Wine crowd and Cenega. Thank you for all the new toys. I know you mean good but making both an Open GL and DirectX client I believe would defeat the purpose of phasing out SM 1. Because in the end you'd have 2 different rendering engines which may or may not need new textures/models. completely unrelated in fact. Making an OpenGl renderer would bring a lot of initial work true, since its a lot of new code. But that would impact in nothing on the art department. OpenGL and DX are equivalent APIs (GL still keeps a lot of outdated stuff that makes a pain in arse for driver developers, but aside of that nothing huge). ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Wacktopia Infinity Miners Union Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:47:00 - [798] Originally by: AnyOldIron I`d agree with the datamining on login but make sure it logs which client you use , as well as your hardware config . Absolutely, they really should do this so they know what percentage of players will be unable to play when they release the update. Originally by: Des Jardin The most interesting aspect of this entire thread is that EVE players do not play the game for the graphics. A lot of people are talking about the graphics, but you're right: its not the primary motivator for playing. I must admit that I really want to upgrade to premium when I can get round to it because the classic view is a little basic. Everyone likes a bit of eye candy, so long as it doesnt become detromental to gameplay.
Gone'Postal Aztec Industry	Posted - 2009.01.15 21:11:00 - [799] Originally by: Des Jardin The most interesting aspect of this entire thread is that EVE players do not play the game for the graphics. Amen, The updated graphics just makes everything looks like its covered in KY, isn't eve a dark cold harsh place.. not bright and reflective to a point it burns out the players eyeballs. The classic client is a great thing for eve, it's a low graphical needy client, Ideal for the lowspec machine or the part time gamer who hasn't got a desktop or high powered laptop(for whatever reason, space, cost) the 2 laptops I run eve on were given to me from a place of employment for work completed, there not graphical machines. All this will do for me is drop 2 accounts and force me to sit at my desktop, something I hate doing tbh. If i'm 100% honest, CCP are updating the wrong thing, they should (imo) be working on client stablity and game internals.
Evil Catbert	Posted - 2009.01.15 21:18:00 - [800] Time for change people. We don't live in the stone age. Stop complaining about the new requirements. Either get on board or don't. If you can't afford the $10-$30 cards (that's for AGP and PCI Express cards) than need to rethink why you pay for EVE. If you use GTC in game you have plenty of cash saved to buy the damn graphics card. I would recommend those that want to run 5-10 clients on 1 PC need to rethink their strategy. Either buy or build a machine that can easily handle a load like that. Don't blame CCP because you are too stupid to realize it. This especially goes for all those teenage whiners out there. Sit down, shut up and grow up.

Gone'Postal Aztec Industry	Posted - 2009.01.15 21:19:00 - [801] Originally by: T Op bet those xbox360, playstation, or wii games really look great on that 48" 1080p though.. Yeah they do thanks. Forced Migration works well in some areas, however some areas it goes down like a lead turd and is looked back on with a sorry face and the words.. ah ****, maybe that wasn't such a good plan..
Green Looter Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2009.01.15 21:42:00 - [802] Edited by: Green Looter on 15/01/2009 21:50:59 Evil Catbert you really shine with your brightness thru the dark night man.... Just lol Eve playing grandfather giving constructive advice to the kids ?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:01:00 - [803] wait, I'm confused. It sounds like the devs are saying that sm2 might be removed so they can make new stuff in SM3 only. But this change to sm2 is so they can make only one set of art assets. So why does it work now but not then? I mean why can't CCP just auto generate the content again? what does sm3 really do? What does sm3 really do. IS it just the normal maps? why can't those just be turned off and TA-DA, it would work?
Imiarr Timshae Caldari Funny Men In Funny Hats	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:01:00 - [804] Goddamn CCP. I don't run Classic due to PC performance issues, I run it because all of the ships look dreadful in Premium. Idiots.
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:03:00 - [805] Edited by: rubico1337 on 15/01/2009 22:03:36 Originally by: T Op on thing to consider about 'industry standards' is that it is always a 'forced migration'... advances in CPU's caused advances in all pc systems... CPU went from 25mhz, to 133mhz..266..600..800..etc... meanwhile: ISA became PCI, became AGP, became PCIe... SIMMs became DIMMS, DIP's became jumpers, jumpers became 'whats a jumper???' BUS went from 15hz, to 1800mhz MEM went from 2kb sticks to 8gb sticks... et cetera.. et cetera.. et cetera.. program developers are always quick to take advantage of new hardware architecture. system requirements always rise, never fall. point is.. you either adapt, or you die. some of the systems people have been describing, sound like they can barely handle XP... really folks... if you are being left behind.. who's fault is it... bet those xbox360, playstation, or wii games really look great on that 48" 1080p though.. im glad you have the ability to keep up with your PC smugness with latest hardware that you use in your mom's basement, good for you unfortunately in the real world, there are things other than the latest up to date rigs on peoples minds. like jobs, girlfriends, and bills. Originally by: Blind Man okies so liek when u warp in on them u shod target them... and stuff k.then u FIRE ZE MISSILES and use your heavy nos cause it drain their cap then u click the jhammer and dampenener
Marcus Arelios Caldari Global Sheep Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:03:00 - [806] Edited by: Marcus Arelios on 15/01/2009 22:05:23 Newegg: Can get a SM3 video card for $20, barely higher than one month of EVE. Laptop owners: Laptops are not generally designed for games...if you want to play games on laptops, then your going to pay for it. (i.e. alienware $3000 laptop, or you could get an HP laptop for like $1200 that has SM4 support). You can't expect CCP to keep paying and wasting time maintaining software that is outdated while the rest of the world keeps advancing. Can you think of any other game company in the world that is maintaining SM1 software? Not likely. Let alone one that is maintaining two versions of the same game for that hardware. You don't need the latest hardware to play EVE premium with SM3 support. That hardware is even getting old by now for those that like to be on the bleeding edge. Anyone that buys bleeding edge is an idiot though, the prices are way to drastically high. I stick one generation behind when building new machines and my stuff runs amazing well for half the price.
ishkurz Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:05:00 - [807] so if I don't have enough money to upgrade my computer I need to grow up ? I think that's the best post I seen in this forum that pretty bad coming from someone that states he's older then some wining teen agers
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:06:00 - [808] Originally by: Evil Catbert Time for change people. We don't live in the stone age. Stop complaining about the new requirements. Either get on board or don't. If you can't afford the $10-$30 cards (that's for AGP and PCI Express cards) than need to rethink why you pay for EVE. If you use GTC in game you have plenty of cash saved to buy the damn graphics card. I would recommend those that want to run 5-10 clients on 1 PC need to rethink their strategy. Either buy or build a machine that can easily handle a load like that. Don't blame CCP because you are too stupid to realize it. This especially goes for all those teenage whiners out there. Sit down, shut up and grow up. in order to update to SM 3 those on outdated laptops would have to buy new ones Originally by: Blind Man okies so liek when u warp in on them u shod target them... and stuff k.then u FIRE ZE MISSILES and use your heavy nos cause it drain their cap then u click the jhammer and dampenener
Jerry Rocket	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:08:00 - [809] Consolidating the game clients and updating the minimum graphics requirement is a great idea, keep the changes coming. I applaud CCP's intentions to provide realistic hardware support, while simultaneously striving for great game experience.
Evil Catbert	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:10:00 - [810] Edited by: Evil Catbert on 15/01/2009 22:14:25 Originally by: Green Looter Eve playing grandfather giving constructive advice to the kids ? I'm not a grandfather. Not by a long shot. I'm only in my late 20s. I normally don't even post to these forums for the fact that most of the time the posts are complete gibberish. It just annoys me to read all these posts about how CCP wants to ruin the game or alienate its clients. Mostly it was just an outburst aimed toward those idiots. Feel free to do the same. As for CCP's decision to change the client, I'm all for it. I only recommend that they maintain SM2 at minimum only because it is the most common shader on graphics cards made within the last few years. I have no doubt that given another year or two that SM3 will be as common as SM2 was and the base code can reflect that. I will assist those that have problems reading. Originally by: Evil Catbert If you can't afford the $10-$30 cards (that's for AGP and PCI Express cards) than need to rethink why you pay for EVE. If you use GTC in game you have plenty of cash saved to buy the damn graphics card. There shouldn't be any trouble updating desktop machines to SM2. Those with laptops are the ones that have more issues that can't be handled here.

Green Looter Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:14:00 - [811] I understand your not a gradfather they usely don't struck down on their kids just because some got less money...
Marcus Arelios Caldari Global Sheep Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:14:00 - [812] Originally by: Evil Catbert Originally by: Green Looter Eve playing grandfather giving constructive advice to the kids ? I'm not a grandfather. Not by a long shot. I'm only in my late 20s. I normally don't even post to these forums for the fact that most of the time the posts are complete gibberish. It just annoys me to read all these posts about how CCP wants to ruin the game or alienate its clients. Mostly it was just an outburst aimed toward those idiots. Feel free to do the same. As for CCP's decision to change the client, I'm all for it. I only recommend that they maintain SM2 at minimum only because it is the most common shader on graphics cards made within the last few years. I have no doubt that given another year or two that SM3 will be as common as SM2 was and the base code can reflect that. Agreed, hold on to SM2 for at least another year and a half or 2, then make the switch. Winter '09 is a little soon for that, but it does need to happen sometime.
LordRyan77 Gallente Ooops Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:21:00 - [813] Originally by: Gone'Postal Originally by: T Op bet those xbox360, playstation, or wii games really look great on that 48" 1080p though.. Yeah they do thanks. Forced Migration works well in some areas, however some areas it goes down like a lead turd and is looked back on with a sorry face and the words.. ah **, maybe that wasn't such a good plan.. Thank god I have PS3, Wii on 50" plama to fall aback on! P.S. I can still play EVE, on 1 out 3 machines. God I'm so happy I only have to drop 2 of my 4 accounts since the other 2 are paid to july. LordRyan77**
Evil Catbert	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:25:00 - [814] Originally by: Green Looter I understand your not a gradfather they usely don't struck down on their kids just because some got less money... For children such as yourself, I assume that your only means of playing EVE is with GTCs. If that is the case than maybe you could use some of your birthday money and buy a graphics card. I would also recommend the use of a spell checker.
Green Looter Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:30:00 - [815] I can do that for you, if you promise you never post anything more on this forum that would be nice
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:30:00 - [816] i only got SM2 and i don't plan to upgrade it this year. buying only new graphic card has no use as my computer is as old as the graphic card. so i would need new computer. but i don't see any reason to get a new one as basically everything i play still runs very good on my computer with acceptable graphic settings (even though my computer is about 8 years old)
Milla Jovo	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:40:00 - [817] Originally by: Evil Catbert Time for change people. $10-$30 cards (that's for AGP and PCI Express cards) Can please past a link to the 10 to 30 USD agp card with sm3. I have been looking and the cheapest is 89 USD
Grimmish	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:49:00 - [818] Mr evil catbert is just noob, plain and simple
Spurty Caldari Technologic Dance	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:54:00 - [819] Edited by: Spurty on 15/01/2009 22:55:54 Originally by: Milla Jovo Can please past a link to the 10 to 30 USD agp card with sm3. I have been looking and the cheapest is 89 USD http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814187048 $19.99 The above is PCI-e actually ninja edit specs: http://www.nvidia.com/object/geforce6_techspecs.html GeForce 6 Series GPUs all have SM3 support. Try looking on Pricegrabber for any 6 serious GeForce card To make a mistake is Human. To make a REALLY BIG mistake, takes a computer
Evil Catbert	Posted - 2009.01.15 23:04:00 - [820] Originally by: Milla Jovo Originally by: Evil Catbert Time for change people. $10-$30 cards (that's for AGP and PCI Express cards) Can please past a link to the 10 to 30 USD agp card with sm3. I have been looking and the cheapest is 89 USD Try looking again at SM2 cards and make sure you know which type of graphics card slot is in your PC. I never said these were SM3 cards. SM2 is the minimum requirement that CCP has posted. My suggestion was for SM2 cards since they are dirt cheap and make a quick fix. I would recommend saving up for SM3 cards since it will only be a matter of time before they become the minimum requirement. Saving $1 a week for 1 year gives you more than enough money to pay for a new card with the latest GPUs. By the time CCP is ready to make SM3 the minimum requirement, graphics cards with the needed specifications should be fairly cheap by then.

Milla Jovo	Posted - 2009.01.15 23:07:00 - [821] GeForce 6 Series GPUs all have SM3 support. OK so any 6 series or better, that removes some of the confusion. Now why didnt CCP say something like that in the first place. here is the current game minimun requerments OS: Windows« XP / Vista CPU: Intel Pentium« III 800 MHz or AMD Athlon 800 MHz RAM: 512 MB or more HD space: 6.0 GB Network: 56k modem or better Internet connection Video: 32 MB 3D graphics card. GeForce 2 Series or greater, ATi Radeon 7200 or greater and Similar chips from other manufacturers I guess they need to update that.
Evil Catbert	Posted - 2009.01.15 23:11:00 - [822] Edited by: Evil Catbert on 15/01/2009 23:11:57 Originally by: Milla Jovo GeForce 6 Series GPUs all have SM3 support. OK so any 6 series or better, that removes some of the confusion. Now why didnt CCP say something like that in the first place. The wiki page that CCP points to makes it easy to see which GPUs are compatible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_shader
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.01.15 23:29:00 - [823] Originally by: Zeko Rena Wow i never relised it but boy EVE-Online must really have alot of casual gamers playing it, to be honest, if you cant run EVE-Premium you pretty much have a box that should be on a scrap yard. Im guessing the only reason alot of people here have such crap machines is because there casual gamers and spending money on there machine to keep it at least slighty upto date is like throwing money down the toilet? Wow, and I thought Mac uses like myself were snobs. The main reason a lot of people here have such "crap" machines is that they'd prefer to spend $2000 buying two computers, not one. Then they only want to upgrade when there is a compelling reason to do so, and prettier graphics in a game that plays exactly the same way is not a compelling reason to upgrade. Then there's the technological snobs such as yourself who figure that since you have access to the best and latest in technology, everyone else should haemorrhage at the wallet the same way you do and get the best and latest technology too. As for upgrading a "few components" - any computer older than 2 years will require a complete makeover in order to receive a new video card. The processors are different, the video card slots are different, the memory is different. There's nothing stopping CCP from adding support for "outdated" hardware by simply allowing the user to turn textures off completely. Textures off, normal maps on, vector shaded single-colour polygons will still look as wonderfully awesome as the fully textured ships do now - that is, they'll be little points of light in the middle of a swarm of blinking red squares. My laptop runs EVE and WoW just fine. If EVE stops running on my laptop, I stop running EVE - it's really simple. I'm not going to spend another $2000 to buy a desktop machine that makes EVE run awesomely well, when I do most of my gaming while cooking, ironing, or chatting to my partner while watching TV. Gaming on desktop computers is for troglodytes who refuse to interact with the rest of the world outside their basement flat. There are so many features available to turn off in EVE, to support older hardware with the new "Premium" content is just a matter of turning off more stuff. Normal maps, high resolution textures, specular highlights, these all require extra work by the processor and can all be turned off without degrading the game play. In fact, turning off the processor-intensive stuff would end up making fleet combat more interesting since you could actually try doing stuff before you die.
Ronz	Posted - 2009.01.15 23:56:00 - [824] Edited by: Ronz on 15/01/2009 23:58:15 I really hope you dont go ahead with the idea of discontinuing shader model 2 support in the winter expansion. Personally I think the availability of eve on just about any PC with the two packs is a great advantage of the game, i think it would be a shame to loose that. OK I can see why you would want to switch to one pack, and i would fully support the premium lite idea. However I think a further change to shader model 3 only would be bad. it would certainly effect me for one. The issue is, I fall under the 97 percent of players who are able to run shader model 3 in the premium content with no problems. However, i only really spend about 20 % of my time in eve in my main PC. The rest is spent on my laptop. Unfortunately it only supports shader model 2. If i was unable to access on my laptop it would seriously effect me by limiting how much time i can spend online. So much so that it would not likely be worth my while to continue. Please please do not go down this route, i love eve too much and really dont want to see it loose such a great feature and im sure im not alone in this thinking. *EDIT - Just reading the post by Mara Rinn above me. I see we are in a very similar situation. thats good to know. :)
Milla Jovo	Posted - 2009.01.15 23:57:00 - [825] Thanks for the links ETC. found a 6 series agp for 40 USD. this is resanable, after all, I need it for 1 game and 1 game only... PS. sorry for any bad spelling and or bad grammer, english is my first language
13lue Flower	Posted - 2009.01.16 00:02:00 - [826] I am running on a 3 year old computer with a year old graphics card (I normally do a total rebuild every 4 years for approx $1000). I really liked the look of EQ2 when it came out. It was top of the line graphics but I hated the game play. Bottom line is I think that if supporting 2 clients is slowing down progress on "gameplay" cut the classic version but I still say support SM2.0 as long as you can while only using 1 client. There is no need to make things look better unless you are requiring the upgrade to SM3.0 for new features and not just eye candy. Eventually CCP probably would like to have everything running on DirectX 10 but it is going to be a while before anyone even wants to upgrade to Vista...
Koyama Ise Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2009.01.16 00:11:00 - [827] Originally by: 13lue Flower Eventually CCP probably would like to have everything running on DirectX 10 but it is going to be a while before anyone even wants to upgrade to Vista... I've upgraded to Vista, though I think CCP will probably skip DX10 and 10.1 in favour of Direct X 11 that will be on Windows 7 and Vista SP 2 and eventually people will move away from XP because people will eventually realise Vista isn't half as bad as people said and because eventually Microsoft will withdraw support from XP.
Solanio	Posted - 2009.01.16 00:26:00 - [828] Originally by: CCP Zulupark What we want to accomplish by blogging about this and presenting you with our plan is for you to be able to voice any concerns you have. My concern ist that CCP is driving this game more and more towards shiny and unneeded beautiful, instead of putting the same money into hardware upgrades, content additions, bug fixing, etc. My reasoning for this is that I believe that what attracts people to play (and more importantly, keep playing) EVE is not its shiny premium content graphics, but rather its complexity and player driven enviroment, and all this happens to be set in space. I play since late beta phase, I never wanted or needed any kind of premium content, EVE classic not only looks good enough for me, it actually looks much better than premium, less shiny disneyland, more 'real' spaceships. On top of that, my notebook (T7200 @ 2GHz, 2GB RAM, GeForce Go 7950 GTX) runs one account, windowed, in station with 300FPS. Same settings but with premium = 120 FPS, + my graphiccard more often slows down due to heat, = 30FPS, in station. I am basically afraid of undocking with premium. And not even talking about running all my 3 accounts at once. Possible with classic with all 3 accounts in space, e.g. mining, completely unplayable with premium. Now that you, CCP, found yourself in the situation where you need to maintain two versions of EVE, it seems you rather discontinue the option that allows more people to play with more accounts at once, especially in tough financial times for some people. It is difficult to estimate but you might end up loosing more money due to less subscriptions (on one hand due to less people having the hardware to play EVE at all and on the other hand due to people cancelling some of their subscriptions because they can no longer run as much accounts at once as they do now) vs. money saved due to only maintaining premium client with SM2 or SM3. If you ask me, yes you should only have one client, allowing for low end and high end settings, therefore allowing people with low end and high end computers to play EVE. Classic is shiny enough to achieve this, therefore please discontinue premium version. Real visual junkies are not playing EVE for more than 2 months, exactly until they find out that anywhere outside a station you rather like to zoom out to have better overview of the grid, instead of zooming in and seeing every detail of the hull of your ship. Or they find a new and better/different looking game anyway every 3 months. Personally, I can adapt to higher minimum specs without problems, but the question is, if I am forced to put alot of money on the table just because of graphical reasons, but effectively it is still the same game that could also be run in classic mode, am I going to do it? I may be addicted enough, or not.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.16 00:32:00 - [829] Quote: Laptop owners: Laptops are not generally designed for games...if you want to play games on laptops, then your going to pay for it. (i.e. alienware $3000 laptop, or you could get an HP laptop for like $1200 that has SM4 support). My laptop is HP and costed a lot since it had every optional for being useful. It's still only able to do SM 2. Quote: You can't expect CCP to keep paying and wasting time maintaining software that is outdated Blizzard did, Virtrium (to say an extra small company) did and others did and do. Moreover the other companies don't design a system so strongly aimed for you to have multiple specialized accounts so you can focus on one PC and keep it updated. If we can't expect CCP to keep paying and wasting time maintaining software that is outdated they can't also expect for people to take it doggy style and shell out money for their caprices and optimization. Optimization goes two ways, they reduce legacy code to save money but players reduce legacy subscriptions to save money as well. It's not middle 1980s, the years of the fat cows and expansive expenses is over now and entertrainment is really the first department to cut off in times of crysis. Quote: Can you think of any other game company in the world that is maintaining SM1 software? Not likely. Let alone one that is maintaining two versions of the same game for that hardware. There have been a lot of those, beginning with those supporting dual resolutions back at DOS times, those making (ie Lucasarts) DOS and Windows versions of the same titles, those who made for years a 3D hardware version of their games and a 3D software version of the same, usually in the same package. Hey look, Windows Vista got a DOS box. Ubuntu Linux got terminal windows. Need more examples? MY own software (automotive manufacturing production lines control programs) can run in a > decade of different technologies (from S7 to S5 to Modbus to OPC). LOL if I went to a customer to tell them to trash their 10-15 years old perfectly functioning production line because I added cool looking buttons they would make sure I get fired. And those old production line owners are not Chinese, they are main suppliers of Audi, Mercedes and similar.
Avenger Garius	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:01:00 - [830] Edited by: Avenger Garius on 16/01/2009 01:12:42 Originally by: Solanio Classic is shiny enough to achieve this, therefore please discontinue premium version. Real visual junkies are not playing EVE for more than 2 months You're funny they worked so hard to get Trinity done and only not to long ago you really think they'd that proposal seriously? Lols. And in terms of people wanting statistical evidence. Where's the statistical evidence in that. I like my premium graphics and you know what, Classic is ugly to me and is not shiny enough. And before you label me as a visual junkie more than 1 and a half years. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Can you think of any other game company in the world that is maintaining SM1 software? Not likely. Let alone one that is maintaining two versions of the same game for that hardware. There have been a lot of those, beginning with those supporting dual resolutions back at DOS times, those making (ie Lucasarts) DOS and Windows versions of the same titles, those who made for years a 3D hardware version of their games and a 3D software version of the same, usually in the same package. Hey look, Windows Vista got a DOS box. Ubuntu Linux got terminal windows. Both the Microsoft division that make windows and the Linux division that makes linux are not "gaming software companies". Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Need more examples? MY own software (automotive manufacturing production lines control programs) can run in a > decade of different technologies (from S7 to S5 to Modbus to OPC). LOL if I went to a customer to tell them to trash their 10-15 years old perfectly functioning production line because I added cool looking buttons they would make sure I get fired. And those old production line owners are not Chinese, they are main suppliers of Audi, Mercedes and similar. You're refrence is not relevant to the discussion as, 1 it's more than cool looking buttons, 2 this is a couple of hundred dollars not millions, CCP is not making new better graphics in this instance as some people don't seem to realise, they already have them they also have old ones and to support both is time consuming. Yes it's an alt... or is it?


CCP Explorer	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:02:00 - [831] Originally by: Solanio My concern ist that CCP is driving this game more and more towards shiny and unneeded beautiful, instead of putting the same money into hardware upgrades, content additions, bug fixing, etc. We are also putting a lot of resources into that: Re-factoring and performance enhancements, StacklessIO, Jita fixes, EVE64, hardware improvements and UI performance improvements. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Solanio	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:06:00 - [832] Originally by: Avenger Garius Originally by: Solanio Classic is shiny enough to achieve this, therefore please discontinue premium version. Real visual junkies are not playing EVE for more than 2 months You're funny they worked so hard to get Trinity done and only not to long ago you really think they'd that proposal seriously? Lols. And in terms of people wanting statistical evidence. Where's the statistical evidence in that. I like my premium graphics and you know what, Classic is ugly to me and is not shiny enough. And before you label me as a visual junkie more than 1 and a half years. Do you run 3 acounts on one machine at once with premium content?
Avenger Garius	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:14:00 - [833] Edited by: Avenger Garius on 16/01/2009 01:14:45 Originally by: SolanioDo you run 3 acounts on one machine at once with premium content? No and I don't claim to because I don't have 3 accounts, but remember this is not flat premium it's going to have lower system specs therfor will run better than premium which some people don't seem to realise either. Yes it's an alt... or is it?
Solanio	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:16:00 - [834] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Solanio My concern ist that CCP is driving this game more and more towards shiny and unneeded beautiful, instead of putting the same money into hardware upgrades, content additions, bug fixing, etc. We are also putting a lot of resources into that: Re-factoring and performance enhancements, StacklessIO, Jita fixes, EVE64, hardware improvements and UI performance improvements. I know all that of course, and very much appreciated. Bottom line is, EVE favours multiaccounting more than any other online game, which is very good for CCP. If the minimum specs are increased (too much) and classic discontinued, people might be force to make a choice between stopping EVE, playing EVE differently or buying hardware to keep playing the way they do now. I cannot predict how that will play out, but for me it looks at least at the moment like that I will no longer be able to play EVE as I do now (because multiaccounting + premium is not possible with my hardware from playability point of view). Therefore the above stated choice applies in my case. But maybe premium lite will run as smooth as classic does. Than I have no problem really.
Erica 'cowpig'Lafehr	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:18:00 - [835] Originally by: Evil Catbert Originally by: Green Looter I understand your not a gradfather they usely don't struck down on their kids just because some got less money... For children such as yourself, I assume that your only means of playing EVE is with GTCs. If that is the case than maybe you could use some of your birthday money and buy a graphics card. I would also recommend the use of a spell checker. I would suggest checking your own use of spelling before smack talking someone else. Specifically, the sixth word of your second sentence is WRONG... Tough guy
Anaxandros Aquilius	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:26:00 - [836] Hello, I've got an Intel Pentium III with 863 MHz and 512MB RAM. Having run GPU-Z.0.3.1, here are my specs. As I understand things, I could still play EVE past March, but would have to discontinue in winter? I plan on getting a custom PC, but it won't be til 2010 or whenever this one breaksdown.
Solanio	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:27:00 - [837] Originally by: Avenger Garius Edited by: Avenger Garius on 16/01/2009 01:14:45 Originally by: SolanioDo you run 3 acounts on one machine at once with premium content? No and I don't claim to because I don't have 3 accounts, but remember this is not flat premium it's going to have lower system specs therfor will run better than premium which some people don't seem to realise either. You are correct, but unfortunately at the moment I only can take the experience I have made with premium as it is. Which is very bad experience, considering that my playstyle means multiaccounting. If the new premium lite has enough options to scale it down enough, to run as smooth as classic does for me, I am fine. If performance is like today, than I have a problem and therefore CCP because I may not want to buy new/addional hardware, just so that I can play the same game with graphics that are not a selling point for me.
Koyama Ise Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:31:00 - [838] Originally by: Anaxandros Aquilius Hello, I've got an Intel Pentium III with 863 MHz and 512MB RAM. Having run GPU-Z.0.3.1, here are my specs. As I understand things, I could still play EVE past March, but would have to discontinue in winter? I plan on getting a custom PC, but it won't be til 2010 or whenever this one breaksdown. Your CPU may be to slow and you may not have enough ram but your GPU would run it from what I understand. This is based off current premium specs so it's all speculation. --- Trolling a forum near you. Originally by: rValdez5987 I dont like your sig. It fills me with rage. I want it removed. Reported.
Nicolas Mystere	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:33:00 - [839] As a very casual gamer, when I want to play I use my high end PC. Very often, however, I am just logging in for character management, ie. skill changes, marketing, etc. I think more than a Classic client, I would like to see a Character Management Client. Maybe just a subset of the full package without a graphics burden. Suppose you can't undock or fly, there is a static background and no ship. You can train skills, trade in the market, access your inventory, and mail, etc. Nothing requiring a graphics package, just bookkeeping. Minimal requirements for the times you don't have time or resources for the real thing.
Trvaeler	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:46:00 - [840] Originally by: Mara Rinn Originally by: Zeko Rena Wow i never relised it but boy EVE-Online must really have alot of casual gamers playing it, to be honest, if you cant run EVE-Premium you pretty much have a box that should be on a scrap yard. Im guessing the only reason alot of people here have such crap machines is because there casual gamers and spending money on there machine to keep it at least slighty upto date is like throwing money down the toilet? Wow, and I thought Mac uses like myself were snobs. The main reason a lot of people here have such "crap" machines is that they'd prefer to spend $2000 buying two computers, not one. Then they only want to upgrade when there is a compelling reason to do so, and prettier graphics in a game that plays exactly the same way is not a compelling reason to upgrade. Then there's the technological snobs such as yourself who figure that since you have access to the best and latest in technology, everyone else should haemorrhage at the wallet the same way you do and get the best and latest technology too. As for upgrading a "few components" - any computer older than 2 years will require a complete makeover in order to receive a new video card. The processors are different, the video card slots are different, the memory is different. There's nothing stopping CCP from adding support for "outdated" hardware by simply allowing the user to turn textures off completely. Textures off, normal maps on, vector shaded single-colour polygons will still look as wonderfully awesome as the fully textured ships do now - that is, they'll be little points of light in the middle of a swarm of blinking red squares. My laptop runs EVE and WoW just fine. If EVE stops running on my laptop, I stop running EVE - it's really simple. I'm not going to spend another $2000 to buy a desktop machine that makes EVE run awesomely well, when I do most of my gaming while cooking, ironing, or chatting to my partner while watching TV. Gaming on desktop computers is for troglodytes who refuse to interact with the rest of the world outside their basement flat. There are so many features available to turn off in EVE, to support older hardware with the new "Premium" content is just a matter of turning off more stuff. Normal maps, high resolution textures, specular highlights, these all require extra work by the processor and can all be turned off without degrading the game play. In fact, turning off the processor-intensive stuff would end up making fleet combat more interesting since you could actually try doing stuff before you die. Just to add my two cents here for what it's worth, upgrading might not be that expensive. (I know that's relative!). - I've been one of those people who only upgrade when needed. Up until last month, I had an old computer and a brand new work laptop (integrated video card - couldn't run games). - My old PC was of the AMD 2200 variety with a very cheap no name video card. - Ran EVE fine in classic mode. Since I'm anticipating DNF to finally come out soon, I finally decided to upgrade. I bought a new laptop and a new PC. The PC is a quad core 6600 with an NVIDIA 9800GT video card and 4 gigs of RAM. - Cost me all of $600 to build (from scratch..so that includes case, power supply, hard drive etc etc...all the components). Bought two 22" monitors and this PC runs TWO eve clients simultaneously on the highest premium setting (one on each monitor) AND I can have a browswer, MSN, and a whole bunch of apps running in the background. Everything is super smooth..... So my point being that it doesn't take as much money as one might think to uprade to a semi-decent PC. - I also bought a laptop. It's an HP and cost me $499 CDN (So that's like what? $370 US?) at best buy. - It's an AMD dual core with 2 gigs of ram and a radeon 9600 equivalent video card. - Also runs EVE and WOW at top graphics very smooth

Mzr Gallente Session9 Malum Exuro	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:49:00 - [841] Edited by: Mzr on 16/01/2009 01:55:34 Edited by: Mzr on 16/01/2009 01:52:27 Agreed with what's here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=971997&page=17#498 1. COLLLECT STATISTICS ABOUT WHAT YOUR PAYING CUSTOMERS WANT. If they wanna play the classic version then YES YOU SHOULD WORK TWICE AS HARD TO DELIVER BOTH. Don't give us ambulation and some other stupidities, that nobody asked for. 2. Premium is still crashing a lot. Running multiple accounts on it like we do in classic it's not possible. 3. If my RL friends decide to leave due to this, then I will go with them. Too bad we just decided to spank up (and payed) a new account for a full year for dread/carrier training. Having phun in Q2, Q3A, Soldat and Starcraft1 is back just around the corner. Nobody asked you for shiny graphics, we were OK with it as long as we could chose. I personally played the premium for 15min, then never again. You will lose a lot of people if you drop classic. Work harder, keep the 2 clients, satisfy your loyal customers and everyone will win from this. We - enjoying our eve experience, you - the money. Remember who stood by your side when you guys were beta and financial success was not in sight. Work harder - there's your answer.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:57:00 - [842] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Solanio My concern ist that CCP is driving this game more and more towards shiny and unneeded beautiful, instead of putting the same money into hardware upgrades, content additions, bug fixing, etc. We are also putting a lot of resources into that: Re-factoring and performance enhancements, StacklessIO, Jita fixes, EVE64, hardware improvements and UI performance improvements. None of that is much good if you can no longer play though, is it? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Doublewhopper	Posted - 2009.01.16 02:02:00 - [843] Originally by: Marcus Arelios Edited by: Marcus Arelios on 15/01/2009 22:05:23 Newegg: Can get a SM3 video card for $20, barely higher than one month of EVE. You can't expect CCP to keep paying and wasting time maintaining software that is outdated while the rest of the world keeps advancing. Can you think of any other game company in the world that is maintaining SM1 software? Not likely. Let alone one that is maintaining two versions of the same game for that hardware. You, my friend, tell me that you have never heard about the game they call World of Warcraft? World of Warcraft still keeps to its very first system requirements while also being able to be tuned up with features on the newest hardware. And i don't like it to play a game technical inferior to WoW because it is unable to run like it used to be. Might aswell play WoW on my belowed SM1 machines then...
PiratesRcowards	Posted - 2009.01.16 02:04:00 - [844] Originally by: Mzr Edited by: Mzr on 16/01/2009 01:55:34 Edited by: Mzr on 16/01/2009 01:52:27 Agreed with what's here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=971997&page=17#498 1. COLLLECT STATISTICS ABOUT WHAT YOUR PAYING CUSTOMERS WANT. If they wanna play the classic version then YES YOU SHOULD WORK TWICE AS HARD TO DELIVER BOTH. Don't give us ambulation and some other stupidities, that nobody asked for. 2. Premium is still crashing a lot. Running multiple accounts on it like we do in classic it's not possible. 3. If my RL friends decide to leave due to this, then I will go with them. Too bad we just decided to spank up (and payed) a new account for a full year for dread/carrier training. Having phun in Q2, Q3A, Soldat and Starcraft1 is back just around the corner. Nobody asked you for shiny graphics, we were OK with it as long as we could chose. I personally played the premium for 15min, then never again. You will lose a lot of people if you drop classic. Work harder, keep the 2 clients, satisfy your loyal customers and everyone will win from this. We - enjoying our eve experience, you - the money. Remember who stood by your side when you guys were beta and financial success was not in sight. Work harder - there's your answer. Well, I think CCP has access to all those statistics (at least they should know a bit more than we do about who's running which client). - If they think 5% of the user base will be affected, yet they will save 10% on operating costs, then it's in their best interests to lose that 5% of the base. They net 5% profit out of it. On top of that, 5% of the user base being affected doesn't mean 5% will leave. Means maybe 1-2% will leave and the rest will upgrade. So it's an "I win" button for CCP either way. As was mentioned before; For us it's a game, for CCP it's a business. Their goal is not to make life more enjoyable for you, that is only a byproduct of them doing what they need to do to make more money.
PiratesRcowards	Posted - 2009.01.16 02:11:00 - [845] Originally by: Doublewhopper Originally by: Marcus Arelios Edited by: Marcus Arelios on 15/01/2009 22:05:23 Newegg: Can get a SM3 video card for $20, barely higher than one month of EVE. You can't expect CCP to keep paying and wasting time maintaining software that is outdated while the rest of the world keeps advancing. Can you think of any other game company in the world that is maintaining SM1 software? Not likely. Let alone one that is maintaining two versions of the same game for that hardware. You, my friend, tell me that you have never heard about the game they call World of Warcraft? World of Warcraft still keeps to its very first system requirements while also being able to be tuned up with features on the newest hardware. And i don't like it to play a game technical inferior to WoW because it is unable to run like it used to be. Might aswell play WoW on my belowed SM1 machines then... That last statement is actually a bit false. - WOW may not have formally increased their system requirements (or maybe they did, I don't know), but I can tell you (having experienced it!), the expansions need more powerful computers to run. Ran the original WOW fine but when Outlands came out, I couldn't play on my PC anymore. Shattrah and the other "busy" places were too choppy on my PC. Now that Northrend came out and Darlahan is a hub, that chops too. Also remember that CCP said they would have a "lite" version of the "premium" graphics...AKA; if you can run classic mode today, you'll ALMOST CERTAINLY be able to play the new "lite" version. Only a very few who can BARELY run the classic mode today won't be able to run the new one. If your system is not completely ancient, you should be fine. And if you're playing on a laptop with an integrated video card, you shouldn't be playing games in the first place. Get a laptop with a better video card and less CPU/RAM (ends up being the same price and you can now play games properly)
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 02:21:00 - [846] well to be honest i'm gonna loose a laptop or 2 to play eve BUT i m all for change and advancing technologie so i needed a reason to buy a x290 when it comes out anyways so this just took the burden of deciting off of me TVM
Solanio	Posted - 2009.01.16 02:25:00 - [847] Regarding statistics: My GPU supports SM3, so it seems I am not affected by these upcoming changes, nevertheless discontinueing classic and forcing premium could mean exactly that I will stop playing EVE. That would mean 3 accounts less money for CCP. Discontinueing classic content and hence increasing minimum specs will never increase subscription numbers. This cost saving measure may or may not hit back very hard, much more than can be estimated by only taking statistics into account.
Hawk TT Caldari Bulgarian Experienced Crackers Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2009.01.16 02:26:00 - [848] Originally by: Aleyra Mel Edited by: Aleyra Mel on 14/01/2009 09:56:34 You seem relly happy Hawk TT telling people to just go buy new PC, while you are ok with your uber duper machine. Point is that some people have other priorities in life and EVE is not one of the top. I for example only support SH2. No i dont think im gonna buy a new PC for just EVE. And no i wont give 300USD to buy a second hand almost crap PC jsut to be able to play a game. ight now. The people that without them EVE would have bankrupt years ago...[/b] 40 USD for a SM 3.0 AGP Card to upgrade your 6 years old PC and your finances would be ruined? or 30 USD for a SM 4.1 PCIe Card to upgrade your integrated graphics PC? I agree that NetBooks like Asus EEE would have difficulties running the EVE client, but I am going slightly mad when I read posts like "I will not be able to run 3 EVE clients at the same time anymore...I have 2-3 old machines and I can't upgrade all of them"... P.S. My "suppa-duppa machine" is an old Core 2 Duo 1.86GHz w/ 2Gigs of RAM and I run 4 EVE clients all the time. If an EVE player could not afford spending 30-40 USD for a video card, how could he/she afford paying for the subscription? And yeah, by the way I live in Bulgaria - the poorest country in EU with AVERAGE MONTHLY SALARY OF 280 EUR. MONTHLY, NOT WEEKLY OR DAILY! SORRY, BUT I DON'T KNOW ANYONE WHO STILL USES SM 2.0 video card apart from the ATM machine 'round the corner... ___________________________________ Science & Diplomacy Manager @ BECKS The OSS
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 02:28:00 - [849] Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 02:33:35 what you whining about??? tell me wth is the difference i get more fps with the premium then with the classic and why you guys incist on using aincent hardware that keeps the devs from further developing the game and also keep us from more shinyness .....for gods sake spend the 79 bucks on 8600 or 127$ on a 9600 from evga 280 euro WOW i do not know how you live with that i take my hat of my head for that
Rodrigo Talavera	Posted - 2009.01.16 02:56:00 - [850] I think its great to be streamlining everything for you guys. I also think there will be very few people actually missing sm1. On the other hand sm2 would be missed more i think. The intel integrated GFX 950 is in a lot of laptops and its not as if you can just replace those as easily as you can on a desktop. I know alot of the new netbooks which I use when traveling to log in have the GMA 945 and such.

zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 03:03:00 - [851] Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 03:05:45 but also as you might know most laptops in the 400-800 $ range are not made for gaming (imho laptops in general are not designed for hardcore games ) and i can t blame ccp for moving on while also trying to save some money. as somebody before said economy is bad everywhere and even a company like ccp feels the sting. i think it is more then fair that they move on to something that saves them some money even while loosing some stubbern customers that want to hang on to their aincent hardware instead of upgrading some of their hardware also they re giving us a year head start on upgrading
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.16 03:17:00 - [852] Originally by: zombu2 Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 03:05:45 but also as you might know most laptops in the 400-800 $ range are not made for gaming (imho laptops in general are not designed for hardcore games ) and i can t blame ccp for moving on while also trying to save some money. The issue isn't that they aren't made for gaming, the issue is that CCP's CURRENT player-base, and a sizeable portion of their potential player-base are using them RIGHT NOW. Like a good portion of the 85 million or so laptops sold in the last 3 years and a lot of the desktops (which have those same GMA 945 graphics). You really think a potential customer is going to buy Eve to try it if they have to upgrade their machine first? Especially when all their friends are raving about WoW and it plays on their machine just fine? CCP is basically saying "We are planning on telling you to go buzz off, we don't want your money". And a lot of the customers they are trying to attract also. It makes no sense either to add a feature that alleviates the current problem (two clients) and then 6-8 months later REMOVE that feature. We aren't whining about SM 1 disappearing; we are saying that a it is stupid to alienate a good chunk of your current base and potential base by discounting your "average" computers built in the last 3-4 years, computers which make up the majority of the same people you are trying to attract.
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 03:31:00 - [853] you talking about intel extreme integrated chipsets i m sorry but if you bought that crap it is your own fault it is known everywhere that those chipsets are not worth the ink they used to print the serial onto it with most everyone knows laptops with integrated intel and ati chipsets are the lowest of the low end plus they got throtteled down so much to save a couple watts it s not even funny also most any game recently does not support integrated graphics why should ccp not follow maybe if all manufacturers and game devs start not supporting this watered down crap maybe we finally get somebody to invent a great chipset for laptops and desktops that use less power while getting more umpf out of it instead of hanging on to obsolete technologie that should have been gone 4 years ago anyways do you have any idea what the hardware developers have in their hidden stash just waiting to be realeased when they finally exploited the market enough and made a killing on stuff that should have been obsolete a long time ago well i guess not .....if you really think about it look at the last 30 years and see for yourself how fast computers evolved in the first 20 it is almost we have come to a complete stop sry i m just ranting to air some anger with the whole computer situation we all are in
Anaxandros Aquilius	Posted - 2009.01.16 03:31:00 - [854] Originally by: Koyama Ise Originally by: Anaxandros Aquilius Hello, I've got an Intel Pentium III with 863 MHz and 512MB RAM. Having run GPU-Z.0.3.1, here are my specs. As I understand things, I could still play EVE past March, but would have to discontinue in winter? I plan on getting a custom PC, but it won't be til 2010 or whenever this one breaksdown. Your CPU may be to slow and you may not have enough ram but your GPU would run it from what I understand. This is based off current premium specs so it's all speculation. Thanks. My PC could only support Classic play. Being a Dell PC I bought back in 2000, it was a problem tracking down a compatible graphics card for the last major update. So I've got til winter, plenty of time to decide, this assumes CCP drops SM2 - considering is in bold.
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 03:40:00 - [855] Originally by: Anaxandros Aquilius Originally by: Koyama Ise Originally by: Anaxandros Aquilius Hello, I've got an Intel Pentium III with 863 MHz and 512MB RAM. Having run GPU-Z.0.3.1, here are my specs. As I understand things, I could still play EVE past March, but would have to discontinue in winter? I plan on getting a custom PC, but it won't be til 2010 or whenever this one breaksdown. Your CPU may be to slow and you may not have enough ram but your GPU would run it from what I understand. This is based off current premium specs so it's all speculation. Thanks. My PC could only support Classic play. Being a Dell PC I bought back in 2000, it was a problem tracking down a compatible graphics card for the last major update. So I've got til winter, plenty of time to decide, this assumes CCP drops SM2 - considering is in bold. this is what i am talking about how can anyone expect a software company to support 10 year old hardware when even the manufacturer dropped support for it years ago what are you all going to do when microsoft dropps support for xp . do you think you can rant and complain about it at microsoft and expect them to listem to a minority that hangs on to obsolete hardware for what ever reason ?? i don t think so guys wake up even 4 6 or 8 year old hardware is so obsolete most of it belongs to a museum this is not a car or a bike you can have for 10-20 years and still get parts for it
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.16 03:45:00 - [856] Originally by: zombu2 you talking about intel extreme integrated chipsets i m sorry but if you bought that crap it is your own fault it is known everywhere that those chipsets are not worth the ink they used to print the serial onto it with lol. But remember, we are talking CCP wants to INCREASE their player-base. That means they have to get non-techies to play, people who have bought their EMachines, Dells, HPs, etc in the last couple of years. Don't support their hardware, they won't play. In addition, like has been mentioned many times, some 85% of ALL laptops more than 9 months old don't support SM 3.0, and many on the market right now don't. No support == no new customers, regardless of whether you think they were stupid for buying it. Quote: most everyone knows laptops with integrated intel and ati chipsets are the lowest of the low end plus they got throtteled down so much to save a couple watts it s not even funny also most any game recently does not support integrated graphics why should ccp not follow Other than those same players DO have other options. Just they won't have Eve as one. You can't grow by being a niche game in the game-pay department AND in the hardware requirements You also can't grow if you are are losing your current and some cases long-term customers because you are changing the hardware requirements.
Jeb Walker	Posted - 2009.01.16 03:51:00 - [857] Please don't discontinue SM 2.0 support... many laptops are still being made with Intel GMA 965 :\ one of the best things about the game is that it's one of the few MMO that run well on lower end laptops.
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 03:55:00 - [858] well everything changes games software cameras tv s lets just take the HDTV transition here in the good ol usa what you think how many people in the us still own standard analog tv s and are also declining buying the upgrade for it to be able to keep watching tv cable providers like comcast brighthouse time warner cable are gonna keep the analog side for a while till they need the bandwidth analog tv hogs or the fcc finally steps in and makes em change this example is the same like ccp's decision to dump ancient hardware support they kept the classic client for a while (analog tv) and will be changing to full premium graphics (HDTV and Digital) everyone not willing to buy the conversion upgrade gets left behind and in the case of eve even if they loose 10% of their customers i think they save more money not maintaining the classic client since they do not have to do the work twice it s a win win situation in my eyes
Taylor timenenzi	Posted - 2009.01.16 04:05:00 - [859] If you want to play games and never need to upgrade GET A CONSOLE. If you want to play PC games and not buy a new labtop everyday couple year or two GET A DESKTOP. This is not just about new shiny things. Its great for the development team. Having to make sure something works on a old p.o.s. client takes time and limits what they can do. EVE is a game that could go another 10 years easy and I'd rather see it keep up with the times and continue to grow then stagnate and die. Stagnate and die thats whats happening to hose that want to hold on to their legacy hardware. Now a days you keep up with the technology or you fall behind and die.
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 04:07:00 - [860] well spoken

Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.16 04:08:00 - [861] Originally by: zombu2 even if they loose 10% of their customers i think they save more money not maintaining the classic client since they do not have to do the work twice Here is the whole issue though; with the changes they are making in the March expansion they are no longer maintaining 2 versions! A simple fork, like many other games already support, keeps the same assets functional for both low and high graphics machines. Why add it in March, then remove it in November? Those that can't afford to upgrade now aren't going to do it later either. Those machines in the public that don't support it aren't going to die and be replaced by then either because your average computer user is on a 4-6 year replacement cycle and ONLY upgrade when they have too. In hard economic times, wanting to play a game is not the same thing. And any company willing to kiss off 10% of their customers has my sympathy. Eve already has a bad enough reputation in the industry with percieved Dev indiscretions, massive lag, wierd rulesets, etc that it can't afford the perception that it won't support Grandma's computer when you spend the weekend there. I know of 15 accounts that close the day SM 3 is needed, including mine. It just isn't feasable for me to play on my desktop due to needs of family, hence my work-provided laptop can't play, I can't play. I hope if they do follow this path it doesn't bite them too hard, 25k (your 10%) subscriptions is a chunk of change to lose, over a year's worth of growth.
Normandy Xavier	Posted - 2009.01.16 04:08:00 - [862] To CCP: Why don't you guys just set up a survey for registered users where they can submit their system info by uploading .xml files output by dxdiag. Maybe you could also catalog the dxdiag info under each account name for later use if a specific user need help trouble shooting their client, etc to make more use out of the situation. Just a thought on how you can see how many people will be effected by drop of sm 1/2 support, don't know if it has been said or not.
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 04:17:00 - [863] Originally by: Mikalya Originally by: zombu2 even if they loose 10% of their customers i think they save more money not maintaining the classic client since they do not have to do the work twice Here is the whole issue though; with the changes they are making in the March expansion they are no longer maintaining 2 versions! A simple fork, like many other games already support, keeps the same assets functional for both low and high graphics machines. Why add it in March, then remove it in November? Those that can't afford to upgrade now aren't going to do it later either. Those machines in the public that don't support it aren't going to die and be replaced by then either because your average computer user is on a 4-6 year replacement cycle and ONLY upgrade when they have too. In hard economic times, wanting to play a game is not the same thing. And any company willing to kiss off 10% of their customers has my sympathy. Eve already has a bad enough reputation in the industry with percieved Dev indiscretions, massive lag, wierd rulesets, etc that it can't afford the perception that it won't support Grandma's computer when you spend the weekend there. I know of 15 accounts that close the day SM 3 is needed, including mine. It just isn't feasable for me to play on my desktop due to needs of family, hence my work-provided laptop can't play, I can't play. I hope if they do follow this path it doesn't bite them too hard, 25k (your 10%) subscriptions is a chunk of change to lose, over a year's worth of growth. well i do not belive that you can not use the family pc to play your game also you are not supposed to play on your company laptop anyways if you would have read the policy on it in most companys it is a terminable offence to install not authorised 3rd party software also i am tired of ppl threatening ccp to leave the game on every change they make also ccp does not have a bad rep in the game world (not more or less then other software game companys) wow has more cheating devs and they re still cheating we only had 1 problem with it another thing is how many ppl got themselves a new pc for chrismas for gaming with decent hardware and how many of them will find eve and sign up to also how many accounts does ccp loose everyday we do not have the facts to make any assumptions so we can only guess ccp probably already ran all the guesswork and statistics and still decited to go this route if they would not see profit in it they would not do it
Mistress Nyissa	Posted - 2009.01.16 04:43:00 - [864] Originally by: CCP Explorer We are also putting a lot of resources into that: Re-factoring and performance enhancements, StacklessIO, Jita fixes, EVE64, hardware improvements and UI performance improvements. Wow, with all these updates you're really cutting down usage of system resources. That the lord you guys had the excellent idea to tweak the client more and more so that we can drop our fps again. What next, "We're going to add some useless content to the network structure so everyone not currently on 16Mb or above lines will be taken outside and shot" Please listen to the key point that people are making here: "We use the classic client, we do this because the graphics are already good enough and we play EVE for the gameplay. If we all played for the pimping graphics we'd all be usiong premium and posting screenshots at each other and bragging about 'zomg doesn't this ship look so uber on my rig dude' but we're not. Tha vast majority of EVE players play for the community, the gameplay and the structure." Now please tatoo this on every CCP employees forehead...
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.16 04:43:00 - [865] Originally by: zombu2 well i do not belive that you can not use the family pc to play your game Quote: also you are not supposed to play on your company laptop anyways if you would have read the policy on it in most companys it is a terminable offence to install not authorised 3rd party software Quote: also i am tired of ppl threatening ccp to leave the game on every change they make No threat. CCP asked for our opinion, I specifically said it wasn't economically viable to continue playing if they raise hardware requirements. Quote: also ccp does not have a bad rep in the game world (not more or less then other software game companys) lol. Do a search on MMO and Griefing. See what pops up. Mind you I don't consider Eve's gameplay "griefing", but Eve DOES have a reputation problem with those same customers CCP is actively recruiting. Discounting potential customers that might wish to try by drastically raising hardware requirements won't help. Quote: another thing is how many ppl got themselves a new pc for chrismas for gaming with decent hardware and how many of them will find eve and sign up to PC Sales were flatlined for Q3, down for the month of December. Laptop sales were UP 40% for Q3, including December. Remember that comment about laptops not being gaming machines? Laptops are what your customers are buying, if they can't play your game on them they won't play your game Quote: also how many accounts does ccp loose everyday CCP only knows but you can make some guesses: Subscriber increase in the last 1.5 years, 39k (250k-289k) Number of trial accounts at any time, 35-40k Average account life, 7 months. All from Dev posts. All show that Eve has a player retention problem Quote: we do not have the facts to make any assumptions so we can only guess ccp probably already ran all the guesswork and statistics and still decited to go this route Here you are correct, we don't have the numbers. CCP doesn't either, by their own admission. So what they need to do is collect hardware information, data mine it and evaluate those numbers against the world economy and likely-hood of buying hardware. Then watch subscription number trends for the next 4-5 months to see if there is any slowdown there before deciding how many of their current customers they can afford to lose. It is what most companies would do. Quote: if they would not see profit in it they would not do it lol, haven't been around long? CCP has a pretty impressive history of making decisions and then evaluating the impact of them
Hawk TT Caldari Bulgarian Experienced Crackers Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2009.01.16 04:48:00 - [866] Originally by: zombu2 Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 02:33:35 what you whining about??? tell me wth is the difference i get more fps with the premium then with the classic and why you guys incist on using aincent hardware that keeps the devs from further developing the game and also keep us from more shinyness .....for gods sake spend the 79 bucks on 8600 or 127$ on a 9600 from evga 280 euro WOW i do not know how you live with that i take my hat of my head for that And still nobody uses ancient video cards to play whatever... Sometimes you have to sacrifice the food for your stomach, so you could have some juicy food for you sould & mind KEEP GOING, CCP! DirextX 11 is around the corner, Tesselation, Bigger Textures, More complex shaders...SM 4.1 should be the minimum by the end of 2010!
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 04:57:00 - [867] sales of laptops are up so high because manufacturers sell their cheap crap at dumping prices and ppl fall for that then later they are wondering why the stuff don t work right and they can t play on it crap is crap any way you turn it and if i where ccp i would not care about the bestbuy cheapos like i said earlyer you get what you pay for and if you cheap out on your hardware you don t need to play the game
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.16 04:58:00 - [868] Originally by: zombu2 sales of laptops are up so high because manufacturers sell their cheap crap at dumping prices and ppl fall for that then later they are wondering why the stuff don t work right and they can t play on it crap is crap any way you turn it and if i where ccp i would not care about the bestbuy cheapos like i said earlyer you get what you pay for and if you cheap out on your hardware you don t need to play the game I can see you have a bright future ahead in Sales, Marketing and Business Administration
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 05:01:00 - [869] well it don t take much to see that manufacturers trying to get rid of their obsolete stuff and ppl buy it blind because its cheap
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.16 05:11:00 - [870] Originally by: zombu2 well it don t take much to see that manufacturers trying to get rid of their obsolete stuff and ppl buy it blind because its cheap Let us put it this way: "I want more people to play my game, so I am going to make it harder for them to play by raising hardware requirements above what their computers will support" Taken any Logic classes yet?

TheG2 Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2009.01.16 05:13:00 - [871] Edited by: TheG2 on 16/01/2009 05:14:15 The removal of SM 2.0 will result in my dropping my subscription. Yes my desktop is my primary gaming machine, but I primarily use my laptop for EVE. Take away my ability to run EVE from my couch while watching TV or while on the road and I'm done. Also, my roommates, who collectively have 5 accounts, will also probably quit. Sorry to hear your development process is slow, but that's not the consumers' problem.
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 05:17:00 - [872] Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 05:18:55 every game has increased requirements from month to month and they all want ppl to play their game stuff gets old and obsolete and needs to be replaced nothing to do with logic it s a question how the whole economy is run increased system requirements = more high end system sales ... more high end systems = better games well sad to see players gone but if you think about leaving because you can not sit and play while watching tv sorry i got no symphathy for you
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.16 05:22:00 - [873] Originally by: zombu2 every game has increased requirements from month to month and they all want ppl to play their game stuff gets old and obsolete and needs to be replaced nothing to do with logic it s a question how the whole economy is run increased system requirements = more high end system sales ... more high end systems = better games Hint: Sales of anything other than basic consumer grade machines are WAAAAY down. Quote: well sad to see players gone but if you think about leaving because you can not sit and play while watching tv sorry i got no symphathy for you Not expecting sympathy. We have other options to play. The question is whether Eve can take the subscription losses and whether YOU will have a game afterwards. I hope so, but it is a concern. If you don't, I'll see you in the skies in Aces High and all your fancy graphics won't save you
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 05:26:00 - [874] eve has survived many whining threats and it will survive this one and many others to come
Mickey Simon Noir.	Posted - 2009.01.16 05:26:00 - [875] Looks like a plan CCP. Only thing I take issue with is the stupid naming of the "Lite" version. Call it standard or something. Premium implies it's . . . well, premium. Kinda stupid to have two things which are comparable and call them both premium. To everyone whinging: Buy a new ***ing graphics card. It's 2008. You're playing a 3D game. DX 9.0 (and SM 2.0 which IIRC was brought out along with DX 9.0) has been the standard for the past 5/6 years (maybe more? I can't remember). If you can't afford the $30 it would cost to upgrade your old-as-a-grandpa GPU, then how do you manage to play EVE given it costs half of that each month!? SM 2.0 is old* and SM 3.0 is hardly new (4 years there?). While I think it would be nice to keep SM 2.0 support (purely because I understand some people do like being able to run it on old-as-crap computers) it's not unreasonable for a game which is upgraded so regularly like EVE to not support old technology. But seriously: I understand why people are QQ'ing. But it's something you folks need to get over. CCP isn't going to lose a lot of customers over this - no matter what you say. Even if they do, the fact they only have to maintain 1 lot of clients means they'll probably still be making money from this change. Blah. Rant over. Meanwhile, on the other side of town . . .
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.16 05:58:00 - [876] Originally by: zombu2 eve has survived many whining threats and it will survive this one and many others to come Yeah, I'm trolling a little bit Still think it is a bad decision to increase hardware costs during a world-wide economic downturn. When money gets tight, entertainment is the first thing to go.
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 06:06:00 - [877] hmm as far as i can tell hardware prices are falling well i m off to bed it s like 2 here o/
Wolfie276	Posted - 2009.01.16 06:35:00 - [878] i think its a bit stupid to increase the hardware requirements, but its not a bad idea for the people with a computer to run these things i would recommend keeping both graphics modes, and maybe add more options to premium
Bacabachaui Two Brothers Mining Corp.	Posted - 2009.01.16 06:48:00 - [879] I am having trouble trying to figure out if my laptop, a Dell B130 has shader model 2. I bought it from Dell in September of 2007 and my display adapter is a Mobile Intel(R) 915GM/GMS,910GML Express Chipset Family. Anyone know? I clicked the link to the Wiki page and it lists Intel GMA 900, 950, 3000, 310 but it is not specifically listing my specs.
Danae Ori	Posted - 2009.01.16 07:30:00 - [880] Are these the only upcoming changes in system requirements? No-one's happy to fork out extra $$$ on a game they've been happily playing for months, if not years. If CCP removes SM 2 support, I won't quit, but I will definitely think about it. I play Eve on a laptop and these machines are a headache to upgrade. Besides, isn't Eve's niche in gameplay not graphics? Sexy games have bombed in the past... Matrix Online, SWG, Stormreach, etc. due to poor gameplay issues.

Katana Seiko Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.16 07:42:00 - [881] Quote: In Apocrypha, March 10th, we discontinue support for ShaderModel 1, making ShaderModel 2 (GeForce FX (5 series) or ATi R300 series cards or compatible) the minimum requirement and discontinue the "Classic client" version of EVE, replacing it with "Premium Lite" I think that this is a bad idea. Call it "Lite Client" or "Classic¦ Client". Otherwise the names of the clients become absurd... --- "Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign for a diseased mind." -Terry Pratchett
Shea Klant	Posted - 2009.01.16 09:08:00 - [882] Finally. Sooner or later you just have to take the hit and cut your loses. My heart goes out to those people, not really, who won't be able to run their 12 mining clients on a bunch of old mchines, but come on already, the other 150,000 of us have been chompin at the bit for several years now waiting for graphical upgrades and optimizations that take advanatage of what even the most modest of $100 video cards have supported for the last 5 years. If they are tailoring their numbers to bumping just 3% of the accounts off because of old hardware, I say they are being very generous. My advice for the 10 client running crowd, let half your accounts expire. The money you'll save on accounts, and probably in electricity would let you replace the the ten junkers with a pair of multi-screen machines that could run all the clients and then some for many years to come.
Gneeznow Minmatar Cruoris Seraphim	Posted - 2009.01.16 09:08:00 - [883] I'll miss the claymore and vaga on classic, they both look awful in premium, the vaga especially its the worst looking ship in the game on premium.
Squably Minmatar Invenio Inceptum	Posted - 2009.01.16 09:32:00 - [884] Originally by: Toad Black Edited by: Toad Black on 15/01/2009 00:53:36 Check the news. On the same day as this announcement, they announced public beta of premium content on OS/X. Which hopefully means premium content on Linux will follow shortly, since afaik OS/X uses opengl ... I'm gonna buy a 3 month sub in mid feb, if they discontinue Linux support in early March they're gonna owe me a refund ... FYI branching in shaders is implemented by following both paths... it's still faster? are your really relying on the official linux client? Its crap and useless coz its cedega, wrong option imho but mkay. I can run 2 Premium Clients without a hassle using wine Signature removed. Please do not imply profanity in your signature. Navigator
Ab Tallen Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.16 09:37:00 - [885] On a side note, just because something supports SM3.0, that doesn't say anything about how good it is at that. If you take Space Giraffe as an example for a game that relies heavily on shader programs - well, it runs on a notebook with ATI X1300 graphics, just at maybe 2/3rds of the normal speed. EVE currently is not very GPU-bound, but that will change through the addition of more shader stuff, and lower end graphics hardware will fall off much more quickly than it did until now.
Solanio	Posted - 2009.01.16 09:41:00 - [886] Originally by: Shea Klant My advice for the 10 client running crowd, let half your accounts expire. I am sure CCP's CEO likes your suggestion. I am a longterm (since release) and high value (multiaccounting) customer. I have been voluntarily upgrading the different computing machines that I used over the past years, especially to allow multiaccounting. Any other company would love to have and keep me as a customer, CCP on the other hand seems to like to try and see if I am willing to now non-voluntarily spend some money so I can keep on playing the same game and keep on giving them alot of money every month. Being forced to use premium is not a selling point to either get new or keep existing customers. Very simple. And it's not like those people that run one account atm, will go and subscribe a 2nd or 3rd account because of these changes.
Moon Childe	Posted - 2009.01.16 09:47:00 - [887] Edited by: Moon Childe on 16/01/2009 09:47:35 Let's not be to hasty here! those people who are putting down the premium content think of the devs who spent all there time creating it to get slandered! jeeez! and pls reread the blog espesaly this bit: In the Winter Expansion 2009 we are considering discontinuing support for ShaderModel 2 and make the minimum specification ShaderModel 3(GeForce 6 class cards or ATi x1300 or compatible) this is not set in stone. dont make assumbtions.
Myfanwy Pisces P H O E N I X	Posted - 2009.01.16 10:01:00 - [888] Auw dang! That there microwave is shore gonna need an upgrade for lans sake! I'm all torn up, she usta play two fiddles without a care, ya she did. Mind to rip out them there wars and stuff it full of them fancy new do hickeys with a lick an a promise. She'll be lit up like them lightening bugs! Can't wait though, it'll be an excuse to upgrade - though I will miss all the classic models. Tons of fond memories... skips off with a camera to 'git some'...
AnkorWat Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.16 10:02:00 - [889] Edited by: AnkorWat on 16/01/2009 10:13:48 CCP are famous for just doing stuff anyway even if people dont like whats coming. Its about time we got a few more space onlinegames so that ccp starts to feel the heat, atm they can do as they want but, thankfully there some new space online games on the way. Then there is no room for silly announcements or just doing what the hell they want anyway it will cost them more money right away as people can jump and try a new space game right away, that maybe works well and dont require multiple accounts if you want to get somewhere in the game!
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.01.16 10:09:00 - [890] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Mara Rinn Edited by: Mara Rinn on 15/01/2009 02:17:36 Edited by: Mara Rinn on 15/01/2009 02:16:22 Originally by: Kagura Nikon The only thing that limits how many clients you can run is main system memory and CPU itself. In 9 of 10 cases will be memory bottlenecked (system, not video card) I have problems running two clients in Premium, but can run just fine in Classic, only because Premium uses far more texture memory than Classic. The bottleneck in my case is that the graphics card only has 128MB for texture memory. Multiple instances of the EVE client do not share textures, so I'll end up with the same textures loaded twice, effectively cutting the graphics card down to 64MB of texture memory for each client. In my case, I'd be able to run multiple independent clients on my laptop without any trouble if it was possible to turn textures off. One optimisation that CCP could make is for the one client to allow multiple simultaneous sessions, thereby keeping all the graphics assets in memory for only 1 client. Each flight window would be part of one application - this would allow other efficiencies such as only sending object details down the pipe once instead of once for each client as it jumps into system or loads the grid at the end of warping in. but that is completely unrelated to the SM used. My observations are upon people being worried on the SM2 to SM3 move. That move will have zero NEGATIVE impact result as long as your card has SM3 capabilities. Also if CCP wanted to do it right they could easily make both accounts running share the same textures resources. They just need to wake up and make the game client multi-account capable. The card drivers would solve the rest by themselves. That would completely remove the memmory factor from the multi account issue. The complain is a valid one but unrelated to shader models. But does not make less true that CCP should wake up and do something that is SIMPLE as sharing render contexts. And don't dare CCP to tell me this is difficult, I just implemented not long ago at work a shared rendering context between 10 tomographic 3d reconstruction viewers sharing the same resources in a single rendering process. Took me a few hours. Any well designed system with a well decoupled graphic system can do it as well. well SM version IS related to graphics memory usage. SM3 supports longer programs, better math precision and more instructions. This means that the graphics card has to store larger shader programs, also the working set will be larger (more data handling). AND texture limits are different also, so generaly SM3 games use better and larger textures than SM2 games.

Moon Childe	Posted - 2009.01.16 10:13:00 - [891] Originally by: AnkorWat CCP are famous for just doing stuff anyway even if people dont like whats coming. Its about time we got a few more space onlinegames so that ccp starts feel the heat atm they can do as they want but, thankfully there some new space online games on the way Ok i see where your coming from and competion is good for both CCP and us but let me ask one question What do you think the min hardware spec's will be for the new games? cutting edge? i bet you that they will be.
omgdutch2005 Gallente Advanced Planetary Exports Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2009.01.16 10:23:00 - [892] For all those who run classic on a good pc: it will only drain cpu... on premium, it uses the gfx aswell (so less cpu usage). It would be a good idea to have a small coding check what gfx card is being used... p.s. allow up to 10 diffrent setups per users as some might swap accounts between diffrent computers... I for instance run eve now 2x on 4850 (150 euro for 1 card is not that much, i was lucky enough to get a pci-e mobo cuz my bro upgraded, else i would be "stuck" at amd64 x2 3800+)
Bibi Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2009.01.16 10:28:00 - [893] Edited by: Bibi on 16/01/2009 10:33:57 Moon Childe I run multiple accounts in eve for making isk. Now if I have to upgrade my computer why would I continue playing eve! when a new game could possibly allow me less trouble and no need for multi-accounting as I now do in eve to get somewhere in the game. Dont tell me you get far in eve on one account just dont tell me that. So less trouble for me multitasking, less accounts to pay for, Its not like I super enjoy multi accounting in eve but if you pvp most of your time in game its damn nice to be able to get a isk flow going and not spend half of your bloody game time building up your wallet.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.01.16 10:35:00 - [894] Originally by: zombu2 Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 04:03:06 even if they loose 10% of their customers i think they save more money not maintaining the classic client since they do not have to do the work twice it s a win win situation in my eyes well simple maths: 10% from cca 250 000 paying accounts (I think there's more 300k but just to keep things simple) = 25 000 accounts * 14euro/month = 350 000euro/month LOSS ... the artist they employ must ve VERY expensive. I mean even if one get's 5 000 euro/month that's still 70 artists/programmers/janitors/whatever ... I don't think the art department is that large ...
AnkorWat Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.16 10:36:00 - [895] I agree Bibi CCP just gamble with their subscribers!
Jojo Redana	Posted - 2009.01.16 10:42:00 - [896] Originally by: AnkorWat Edited by: AnkorWat on 16/01/2009 10:13:48 CCP are famous for just doing stuff anyway even if people dont like whats coming. Few people are always whining about changes. People are afraid of changes. Quote: Its about time we got a few more space onlinegames so that ccp starts to feel the heat, atm they can do as they want but, thankfully there some new space online games on the way. I'm a space man too. It's not just there's few games coming, they can't even touch Eve-online... You can't seriously compare Eve-online and some other FPS-style space shooter/mmo-wanna-be. Quote: Then there is no room for silly announcements or just doing what the hell they want anyway it will cost them more money right away as people can jump and try a new space game right away, that maybe works well and dont require multiple accounts if you want to get somewhere in the game! Yes they can. It's their game and i love it. It was right time to let old hardware go. People should upgrade their hardware a bit, it's not that hard. You can't play these new so-called space games with your 5-year old PC or laptop. Dream on dude. And yes there's several mmo's out there atm, just choose your game. Can i have your stuffs?
dahlbeck	Posted - 2009.01.16 10:49:00 - [897] How will this affect Mac users running the classic client on less than stellar hardware. e.g. Mac Mini with Intel GMA 950. Eve runs acceptably now but it sounds like I won't be able to play at all after March. Can't afford to buy a new computer right now and upgrades are not an option with this hardware.
AnkorWat Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.16 10:54:00 - [898] Yes they can. It's their game and i love it. It was right time to let old hardware go. People should upgrade their hardware a bit, it's not that hard. I think your character lack the economic touch really If you study you might need to cancel subscription until you saved up enough money for a new comp that can take a year or two before you can do that with a student wallet but you probably come up with a fitting awnser for me
Bibi Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2009.01.16 11:15:00 - [899] Edited by: Bibi on 16/01/2009 11:21:09 Jojo Redana who said something about a 5 year old computer why the F-U-C-K do you assume that I or anyone else posting in here got a 5 year old computer??? you know its also about how much time you want to spend making isk in game to be able to do something fun in game later for those isk like pvp etc. Now to cut isk making time you need to run multiple account thats just how it is. And if new client comes it will demand more computer power we dont need to discuss that. So for the multi accounting people it will be more expensive if they want to continue running eve as good as they been able to do with classic client. Also please dont say anything like: ohhh if you got multi accounts and didn't upgrade your comp-hardware before you probably don't have enough money to play eve at all thats just ******s speaking honestly maybe I should start to buy isk like I KNOW alot of people do in this damn game no more honet multi account for isk and less money for ccp!!!
Indec	Posted - 2009.01.16 11:20:00 - [900] Edited by: Indec on 16/01/2009 11:24:28 Seriously, I can't understand all the whine. There are people not playing any mmporg due to they think the monthly fee would be to expensive, and yet you are paying for one, two or maybe even three or more subscriptions while complaining that you will not be able to afford an upgrade of your computer in 10 months.

Manetheren	Posted - 2009.01.16 11:34:00 - [901] Edited by: Manetheren on 16/01/2009 11:37:08 Indec ever heard of porr, poorer, poorest? Some can pay some money to have fun and some can't pay at all for entertainment. what the Hell has that to do with anything? If people have to stop playing eve for a year or more just to save up money for a new computer.
Jefftaki	Posted - 2009.01.16 11:35:00 - [902] Edited by: Jefftaki on 16/01/2009 11:35:08 "If God had meant humans to fly, he would have given them wings." "It's damned unnatural to ride in a motorized buggy." "Steamships are a work of the devil! We need to use the wind, as man has done for thousands of years." Really people, get a grip. Things move on and so do computer games. Should I mention that the world isn't flat?
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.16 11:35:00 - [903] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 16/01/2009 11:35:22 It is not 10 months for SM 1.0 but less than 2 months and not everyone whine because they will not be able to launch more than 2 accounts... Just read one more time the topic. Or you tried to troll, and you fail, miserabily. ___________________ EVE "Community" become more like WoW each day, with his fanboy attitude. Simplistic logic, Lazy thinking, No capacity to comprehend same a justified whine...
Phoibos Minmatar Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2009.01.16 11:47:00 - [904] Edited by: Phoibos on 16/01/2009 11:55:47 Jefftaki your a good example of people that just don't care about people with less money everything moves forward don't care about people that fall behind just roll on. Its nasty to see that attitude in here when people complaining and fighting for their hobbies. You and others spit on people with less money thats really what you do.. Evolution those that can't adapt become victims Bla Bla Bla Thats why Starcraft,Warcraft series and CS etc still flourish is it?
Vaerah Vain	Posted - 2009.01.16 12:04:00 - [905] Quote: Ok i see where your coming from and competion is good for both CCP and us but let me ask one question What do you think the min hardware spec's will be for the new games? cutting edge? i bet you that they will be They will be cutting edge so: - people can make an informed and not forced decision to purchase the required hardware. And not see years invested in game wasted. - Not a single MMO I played to date but EVE requires multiple accounts to be competitive. You do everything on your "main", and almost everyone of us got a SM 3+ computer for their main. So the new game would be no biggie. Quote: Few people are always whining about changes. People are afraid of changes Were the changes about new looks, whining about the new version lacking the little blue light would be whining. Since the changes are about solid and tangible money to lose, whining is more than just being "afraid". It's about not being able to make it. Quote: You can't play these new so-called space games with your 5-year old PC or laptop. Dream on dude. End of 2007 Dell laptops sold with SM 2 video cards. Is it 5 years?
omgdutch2005 Gallente Advanced Planetary Exports Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2009.01.16 12:28:00 - [906] Edited by: omgdutch2005 on 16/01/2009 12:34:55 Originally by: AnkorWat Yes they can. It's their game and i love it. It was right time to let old hardware go. People should upgrade their hardware a bit, it's not that hard. I think your character lack the economic touch really If you study you might need to cancel subscription until you saved up enough money for a new comp that can take a year or two before you can do that with a student wallet but you probably come up with a fitting awnser for me a fitting awnser could be: get a job ;-) p.s. comps dont need to be fully upgraded if your gfx card is not fast enough... for example.. x1900 series (pro, XT) and x1950 series, (pro & XT) they all have shader 3!!!, and are available in agp & pci-e just do some ebay-ing and you should get some stuff... and there are gfx cards available for mac... just a few less... all gfx card from nvidia seem to be supported all the way to 9800GTX (nvidia seems to be making their own mac drivers) my point: i did a local search on x1950 agp, and the cheapest one was 45 euro, most expensive card was 75 (for same type/specs of card)... and for a card like a 3450 (yes its low end, its 100% better then your current card) 35 bucks... they might do some offers on what cards they think minimumly should run eve at like atleast 20-30 fps, and what a recommended gfx card would be (and what cpu and pls a rating since we all know a p4 @3.0ghz is rougly the same speed/power as a amd64 3000+ (wich runs at just 1.8 Ghz) Quote: End of 2007 Dell laptops sold with SM 2 video cards. Is it 5 years? what kind of laptop, most dell laptops are not even intended to play games in (its mroe a if you can its just great...) I doubt that the laptop you bought is a xps (wich are for gaming) My bro also bought a laptop, heck even through school an "fujitsu-siemens amilo pi 1536" with intel T2300 1.66ghz and a x1300 gfx card (wich is SM3 compatible and runs eve at 1280x800 (the max reso for this 15.4" ) at 20-25 fps... zooming out will give a few extra fps... omgdutch2005
Makar Kravchenko	Posted - 2009.01.16 12:32:00 - [907] Has anyone at CCP thought of having and option to disable ship models completely? Especially for Fleet Fights this would be usefull, since 95% of the people are playing zoomed out so far that the LOD system removes the ships from the screen anyway. The brackets are enough for you to maintain situational awareness, and if you have your overview setup correctly you can even see what the ship types are very easily. It would drastically reduce grid loading times when you warp into a fleet of 250 people, would it not? This could even apply to smaller scale situations, even in 75-75 type fights I play zoomed out far enough that none of the ship models are displaying (but still getting loaded into memory depending on how I move the camera in the situation, causing memory thrashing on the gpu and main ram). I think majority of the experienced people are playing the game via the overview and situational awareness using the brackets system. I'm hoping that this Premium Lite client resolves the issues with the entirely oversized texture memory usage on the gpu, when for the most part its never even displayed on screen. I have and older system: AMD Athlon 3400+ GeForce 6800 128mb (AGP 8x) 1GB OCZ DDR433 With the large scale that eve is played on it really makes it hard to show pretty stuff on screen with ANY kind of hardware, but older computers suffer badly, even the ones that support Shader Model 3.0. In this same right, I can play Half-Life 2 at 1280x960, with max detail and still easily get FPS not going below 15. With EVE, I have everything disabled and running at 1024x768, and I still get smashed when loading a 250 person grid, and like I said I play zoomed out, some times I need to moved the camera to align to something though and the LOD system will force some ships to load causing the game to crawl to 2-3 FPS (this is usually when I get primaried and die, or crash to desktop). I would like to be able to maneuver in the game without having to worry about where I am panning the camera to for fear it might crash my system. Pretty ships dont help win the game hehe, give us and option to disable them completely. :) Since the hit calculations are not based on bounding boxes. :P I know CCP likes their pretty game and are proud of it, but not everyone wants to or can afford top level hardware but still love your game. For us people who enjoy the game without all the fancy graphics, give us the option to remove them (the ships) completely.
Thintalle Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.16 12:33:00 - [908] I am all for going to SM3 end of 2009. But maybe CCP should consider offering some special deals for those people who currently can't use SM3, to make "changing over" for them easier, especially for those less tech-savy. Work out a deal with a supplier (i.e. newegg) and "suggest" a card to your customers that currently have a non SM3 compatible videocard . Support someone setting up an "ISK for new video-card" shop where people can pay with in-game money to pay for an upgrade :P Offer a longer payment plan that includes a brand new video card, payed in monthly rates. Or an even longer one for a SM3 compatible laptop, with additional monthy costs.
x psy	Posted - 2009.01.16 12:34:00 - [909] I think you should support SM 2.0 for at least one or two more years after the next winter expansion.
omgdutch2005 Gallente Advanced Planetary Exports Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2009.01.16 12:43:00 - [910] Originally by: Makar Kravchenko Has anyone at CCP thought of having and option to disable ship models completely? Especially for Fleet Fights this would be usefull, since 95% of the people are playing zoomed out so far that the LOD system removes the ships from the screen anyway. The brackets are enough for you to maintain situational awareness, and if you have your overview setup correctly you can even see what the ship types are very easily. It would drastically reduce grid loading times when you warp into a fleet of 250 people, would it not? This could even apply to smaller scale situations, even in 75-75 type fights I play zoomed out far enough that none of the ship models are displaying (but still getting loaded into memory depending on how I move the camera in the situation, causing memory thrashing on the gpu and main ram). I think majority of the experienced people are playing the game via the overview and situational awareness using the brackets system. I'm hoping that this Premium Lite client resolves the issues with the entirely oversized texture memory usage on the gpu, when for the most part its never even displayed on screen. I have and older system: AMD Athlon 3400+ GeForce 6800 128mb (AGP 8x) 1GB OCZ DDR433 With the large scale that eve is played on it really makes it hard to show pretty stuff on screen with ANY kind of hardware, but older computers suffer badly, even the ones that support Shader Model 3.0. In this same right, I can play Half-Life 2 at 1280x960, with max detail and still easily get FPS not going below 15. With EVE, I have everything disabled and running at 1024x768, and I still get smashed when loading a 250 person grid, and like I said I play zoomed out, some times I need to moved the camera to align to something though and the LOD system will force some ships to load causing the game to crawl to 2-3 FPS (this is usually when I get primaried and die, or crash to desktop). I would like to be able to maneuver in the game without having to worry about where I am panning the camera to for fear it might crash my system. Pretty ships dont help win the game hehe, give us and option to disable them completely. :) Since the hit calculations are not based on bounding boxes. :P I know CCP likes their pretty game and are proud of it, but not everyone wants to or can afford top level hardware but still love your game. For us people who enjoy the game without all the fancy graphics, give us the option to remove them (the ships) completely. like i said top level hardware is not at-all required to run SM3, i think even a 6800 else the 7000 series of nvidia (7300, 7600, 7800, 7900) can run SM3, also ati/amd x1300, x1600x 1900 can run SM3, these are cards atleast 2-3 generations old... for ati... x1x000, then --> HD 2x00 then --> HD 3x00 then HD 4X00 (current latest generation) so atleast 2 generations have past! omgdutch2005

James Saga	Posted - 2009.01.16 12:44:00 - [911] I agree with ccp in that they should phase out the classic client, as it must take up huge amounts of resorces. yes get rid of the shader 1, but give people more notice before stopping support for the shader 2.
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2009.01.16 12:48:00 - [912] False advertising, it won't run on my Amiga since it won't fit on a floppy disk Diary of a pod pilot
AnkorWat Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.16 12:53:00 - [913] Edited by: AnkorWat on 16/01/2009 12:54:56 omgdutch2005 heh why do you think I study to get a avredge factory paycheck each month....... Second you don't know what graphic card in my computer I got because I never told you that! so I take it your a mind my guess your an internet mind reader I can tell you its not a **** graphic card anyway as run multiple accounts at the same time. And last as I'm also one of those that run multiple accounts in eve, and I must spend more then 40-50 Euro to support multiple accounts with the new client the only way I will ever play EVE. I dont want play with sick lag and delay even if I use more accounts at the same time you know
PJRiddick	Posted - 2009.01.16 13:17:00 - [914] OK,...im gonna give the specs to my EVE machine, >Yes i run multiple machines when playing EVE< ASUS A8V Deluxe w/4 gig of ram DDR 400 ATI 3850 AGP <---resent upgrade,..worth the money,..flyes!<<< 32 inch LCD <---resent upgrade from my 10 inch CRT If your looking for speed for the leaset amout of money spent,...go totiger and look at the ATI 3850 AGP cards,..they are fast,..good upgrade for the AGP users and they wont bust the wallet. Thats what im using, totally happy with it, it got me into th epremium graphics for the least amount of money, th e32 inch LCD was my christmas present to ME! hahaha IM all in favor of the new coient as far as an upgrade goes, as long as it will run on my socket "A" systems. I have two lower end systems that i use form time to time, one that has an X800 and another that has an 9800 in it. Performance is about the same but as yo would think the X800 is a bit faster. I think that we should just wait ans see what happens with this new client and then ***** about it,...>GRIN< IMO! <first time that ive used that one<<< OK guys,...later Fly safe!
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.16 13:20:00 - [915] Originally by: omgdutch2005 even WOW requires you to have DX9! premium = dx9! DX9c = SM3 DX9c support too SM2, so maybe WoW need DX9 but I doubt it requires SM 3. ___________________ EVE "Community" become more like WoW each day, with his fanboy attitude. Simplistic logic, Lazy thinking, No capacity to comprehend same a justified whine...
omgdutch2005 Gallente Advanced Planetary Exports Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2009.01.16 13:24:00 - [916] Originally by: AnkorWat Edited by: AnkorWat on 16/01/2009 12:54:56 omgdutch2005 heh why do you think I study to get a avredge factory paycheck each month....... Second you don't know what graphic card in my computer I got because I never told you that! so I take it your a mind my guess your an internet mind reader I can tell you its not a **** graphic card anyway as run multiple accounts at the same time. And last as I'm also one of those that run multiple accounts in eve, and I must spend more then 40-50 Euro to support multiple accounts with the new client the only way I will ever play EVE. I dont want play with sick lag and delay even if I use more accounts at the same time you know I run Dual :) ran fine on my amd64 3800+ (2.0ghz) X2 2gb ram, x1600pro agp 512MB I only recently upgraded to a minor better setup AMD64 Opteron 175 Dual Core @2.2ghz + ati HD 4850 pci-e 512MB and I dual boxed I just disabled the shadowd and even at the x1600 I could run it 2x at 1280x1024 omgdutch2005
Jilly Serkov	Posted - 2009.01.16 13:25:00 - [917] Dear CCP, If you must go to a single client architechture - why not make it the classic client ? I bet you will lose fewer veterans by moving to the lowest common denominator than you will by trying to force hardware upgrades. Alternatively, if having 2 clients costs more to maintain - charge more for the classic client until the playerbase tells you it is no longer needed by switching to the premium or premium lite versions. Even $5 more per month can be bought 20 times with a $100 desktop upgrade or better still, 750 times with a $1500 gaming laptop. Let the players decide when the upgrade will be, and in the meantime cover whatever extra costs you need to. I have a 2 year old laptop. It is just about SM3 compatable (geforce 7400Go) but I choose not to run premium. Why ? IMO fluffy eye candy is IRRELEVANT to the enjoyment of this game, but gameplay is vital. To run the 3 accounts I want to simultaneously I have to use the SM1 Classic client for my hardware. When I read the horror stories of ppl's grafix geforce 7800 hardware melting their GPU's I decided NEVER to run premium. So, what will I do if CCP railroad these changes ? Certainly not put my hardware at threat, and no way can I afford to buy a new laptop. Force me to, and I will cancel 2 or 3 of my 4 subscriptions and revert to single account play. Simple. And please, don't bother trolling with "you dont understand the "lite" concept blah blah". I don't care. The game works fine for me now after much pain that CCP caused bringing in Trinity until the recent fixes. ANY major change is bound to be a game breaker for the simple reason NOBODY can predict the future 100% accurately. I have suggested ways in which CCP can more than cover their costs and keep at least the current level of playability for multiple accounts. If they choose to ignore me - fine. I will vote with my feet as is my right.
SirFett Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.01.16 13:27:00 - [918] hmm im borred I, like probably most people counterwhining that ppl should get the ** over it and finaly buy a better graphics card / laptop, have a fairly beefy machine at home. And what do i do once large fleet fights are to be expected ? I turn off every single piece of eye candy and be prepared to zoom out completly... The only thing that differentiates that from : "Eve online - the text adventures" is that i use the mouse to click on new targets. Now could somebody please tell me what i need SM3 for ? Is it so there can be another texture layer in a completly drab and dreary generic station enterior ? is it so there can be another 3 polygons on a ship model together with yet another texture layer and we can call it Trinity v4 the AWMIGODEAWESOMESAUCE patch ? OK went a bit off topic there .. still the point remains. Now when i buy a laptop (yes i have a laptop aswell like many people) i dont think hmmmm what can i get that i can run my games on aswell and is realy realy cheap ? No of course not. I look for something that is fairly high quality and portable... and there apparently i have a problem. This fairly high quality laptop can run everything i need it to with some headroom .. even classic client, in the zoom out fleet mode, it can actualy handle if i realy realy need it to... however usualy its there to have a little chat and change a skill or play market games when i dont have access to the main machine, that sort of thing. But what are the laptops stats ? Pentium 4m with 1.8ghz 1gb ram 40gb hdd and a mobile radeon 7500. It doesnt even have integrated WLAN oh and after the years ive had it the battery still does over 3 hours when doing the ol word/excel/internet thing.... Now why on earth would i want to ditch that thing ? just because it doesnt even do SM2 ?!? or because some greasy teenager recomended me some 700$ piece of ** so i can play the latest games on my laptop.... and when using eve i still have fall back to zooming out completly and turning off every effect there is ... right
Anaxandros Aquilius	Posted - 2009.01.16 13:51:00 - [919] Originally by: zombu2 Originally by: Anaxandros Aquilius Originally by: Koyama Ise Originally by: Anaxandros Aquilius Hello, I've got an Intel Pentium III with 863 MHz and 512MB RAM. Having run GPU-Z.0.3.1, here are my specs. As I understand things, I could still play EVE past March, but would have to discontinue in winter? I plan on getting a custom PC, but it won't be til 2010 or whenever this one breaksdown. Your CPU may be to slow and you may not have enough ram but your GPU would run it from what I understand. This is based off current premium specs so it's all speculation. Thanks. My PC could only support Classic play. Being a Dell PC I bought back in 2000, it was a problem tracking down a compatible graphics card for the last major update. So I've got til winter, plenty of time to decide, this assumes CCP drops SM2 - considering is in bold. this is what i am talking about how can anyone expect a software company to support 10 year old hardware when even the manufacturer dropped support for it years ago what are you all going to do when microsoft dropps support for xp . do you think you can rant and complain about it at microsoft and expect them to listem to a minority that hangs on to obsolete hardware for what ever reason ?? i don t think so guys wake up even 4 6 or 8 year old hardware is so obsolete most of it belongs to a museum this is not a car or a bike you can have for 10-20 years and still get parts for it I simply asked if whether my PC was capable past March and know what to expect in winter, but I wasn't expecting harassment from some jackanapes, so kindly leave me out of your tit for tat exchange.
Vitelius Decorum Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2009.01.16 14:02:00 - [920] Edited by: Vitelius on 16/01/2009 14:03:49 Originally by: SirFett But what are the laptops stats ? Pentium 4m with 1.8ghz 1gb ram 40gb hdd and a mobile radeon 7500. It doesnt even have integrated WLAN oh and after the years ive had it the battery still does over 3 hours when doing the ol word/excel/internet thing.... Now why on earth would i want to ditch that thing ? just because it doesnt even do SM2 ?!? or because some greasy teenager recomended me some 700$ piece of ** so i can play the latest games on my laptop.... and when using eve i still have fall back to zooming out completly and turning off every effect there is ... right I agree. Forcing SM 3.0 down our throats is a bit too harsh. SM 1.0 is damn old so that's fine, drop that support but NOT SM 2.0 for god sakes. I have pretty new hardware myself (Quad core, GTX260) and I've ran 3 clients simultaneously. When the going gets tough, I do notice slowdowns with 3 premium clients running. It has once or twice occured to me that when running 3 clients I should probably resort to Classic - just because I want things running smoothly. Many players do run multiple clients, it's fairly common. Oh, and then there's my laptop. It can barely run Eve Classic. It was bought a year ago and it was cheap, but was bought as new. I've used it to change skills when needed. I'll be fairly **ed off if I won't be able to do that anymore. Here's a question: Why drop the support for SM 2.0? In fact, why limit the client like that? There are no technical limitations or well I guess it depends on the new engine but technically if the shader support doesn't exist, fall back to NO shaders. If you can't be arsed to write SM 2.0 fallback shaders, then don't write them but don't make the game dependant on them either. It won't look pretty but do you think that people care? They just want to be able to run the client. I'm involved with some shader programming at work and I don't see us ditching SM 2.0 so soon. There are still too many users that don't have cards that support SM 3.0. Yes, we'll use SM 3.0 shaders but if the user's card can't use that, he'll fall back to SM 2.0 shaders or if none are supplied, then no shader but the app will definitely run. SM 2.0 is old but it's not THAT old. It's still very capable. Also in Eve community people are not after the graphics, it's more important to be able to play the game properly. Most of the time the main things people see are BRACKETS and OVERVIEW while being zoomed out, seeing only a few pixels of their own ship. The devs should always keep that in mind.

Tobias Lee Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.16 14:02:00 - [921] If my pc already supports premium but i run classic atm will this be a problem for me? I have a cut down geforce 7300 gt with 512 meg and cause my Motherboard only has an AGP slot I cant buy a better card without upgrading my motherboard.
Jojo Redana	Posted - 2009.01.16 14:04:00 - [922] Originally by: Bibi Jojo Redana who said something about a 5 year old computer why the F-U-C-K do you assume that I or anyone else posting in here got a 5 year old computer??? Most of the people are whining because their old hardware is not supported after this change. Few are whining because they have to upgrade their hardware or can't affort to upgrade their hardware. I don't care what kind of **ty hardware you have. It's your problem. Why do you think CCP should continue to support some old hardware that even the manufacturers don't support anymore? Quote: you know its also about how much time you want to spend making isk in game to be able to do something fun in game later for those isk like pvp etc. Now to cut isk making time you need to run multiple account thats just how it is. And if new client comes it will demand more computer power we dont need to discuss that. So for the multi accounting people it will be more expensive if they want to continue running eve as good as they been able to do with classic client. Eve premium don't need high-end computer to run multi accounts. I know that, i'm running multi accounts with my comp and with my other computer which is much older. I understand that some players have to upgrade their hardware. But for love of god, do these people think that they can play modern computer games with their old hardware for ever? Please, accept that your hardware might be old and you need an upgrade. Check any other mmo/mmorpg out there, they all have requirements that are much higher than Eve has. Quote: Also please dont say anything like: ohhh if you got multi accounts and didn't upgrade your comp-hardware before you probably don't have enough money to play eve at all thats just **s speaking honestly Wtf. Why you're telling people what they can say and what they cannot? I can say what ever i want to (I have to follow forum rules tho). If you cannot handle this the door is that way --> You're calling people ****s already? Ok my 'tard friend. Then there's two of us.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.16 14:09:00 - [923] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 16/01/2009 14:14:26 Quote: what are you all going to do when microsoft dropps support for xp . do you think you can rant and complain about it at microsoft and expect them to listem to a minority that hangs on to obsolete hardware for what ever reason ?? Funny, because Microsoft report the first date of the end of support for Windows XP few times ago, after a good amount of complains. Anyway, same if XP is nearly down in few months, hardware builders will still create drivers and support. I hope you don't think the contrary, or you are stupid. Also, support for XP for professionals are still operational, and they use obsolete hardware generally... I know some of them who still use Windows 2000, as they don't need to upgrade their hardware for one software only, unlike CCP against the players. Quote: Why do you think CCP should continue to support some old hardware that even the manufacturers don't support anymore? To keep customers ? Sorry, I guess it was a wrong possibily
Zenologic Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.16 14:23:00 - [924] cool beans! crank it up. add a first person ****pit view while your at it.
Bibi Basic Tritanium Mining North	Posted - 2009.01.16 14:44:00 - [925] Edited by: Bibi on 16/01/2009 14:55:52 Jojo Redana then tell me what hardware you got in your computer if eve run in a playable state with multiple accounts and what do you do in eve when you multi accounting ? I know people with new computer that prefer classic becuse its more stable I can also run premium version with muli-accounts but I dont like it as it sucks performance wise compared to the eve classic client. Do you prefer a slower and more unstable multi account environment in eve ? Also other mmo/mmorpg got nothing to do with eve as they don't really require multiple accounts in a way that eve does. If you use one account in eve and you want to do pvp you will spend more time working for isk then playing the fun part of the game...
Callimminniss Prdsk Cyrix Ltd. Tamanium	Posted - 2009.01.16 14:53:00 - [926] First thread I've ever posted in, as it may be my last I might as well add one more. The fact that Eve is upgrading and I'll no longer be able to play on this computer is not my main disappointment, I always assumed the day would come eventually. What does make me angry is that I'm given less than two months notice. I'm not sure what a 'reasonable' amount of notice is, but this sure isn't it, particularly condsidering CCP has already accepted my money BEYOND March 10th. As a side note, yes I play on an ancient piece of junk and I am currently looking at potential replacements, but I'll only buy a replacement when I can find a computer I like at a price I like and I'm sure I can afford it, current economics being what they are. Eve specs will have nothing to do with that decision. I was planning to get a second account after upgrading, but as it stands now, either I'll get that upgrade and still play just the one account, or I won't, and will have to stop playing Eve. Either way it's minus one account. CP
Miyriah Caldari Crystal Skull Industries	Posted - 2009.01.16 14:54:00 - [927] Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 16/01/2009 14:14:26 Anyway, same if XP is nearly down in few months, hardware builders will still create drivers and support. I hope you don't think the contrary, or you are stupid. Also, support for XP for professionals are still operational, and they use obsolete hardware generally... I know some of them who still use Windows 2000, as they don't need to upgrade their hardware for one software only, unlike CCP against the players. Quote: Why do you think CCP should continue to support some old hardware that even the manufacturers don't support anymore? To keep customers ? Sorry, I guess it was a wrong possibily I think there's a HUGE diffrence between games and professional software. If you're in the 3D modelling and design, you can keep your ancient hardware e and your work, even if it takes ages to render, or upgrade and have more resources and do the samen render with ridiculous increase in performance. In the other hand, if you only need a spreasheet and office suite, you probaby won't need to upgrade. But as time moves on, newer versions won't be compatible with your (if that's the case) ancient OS, and your hardware can't run the new OS wich have support for the new software version. I this case, you have to buy a new PC, a new OS and pay to upgrade your software. It depends on bussiness too. Why let your employee struggle with an ancient PC to being able to complete his work in 3 hours if a little investment will reduce this time ins 2 hours? This has nothing to do with EVE, btw. Now, CCP wants to attract new players. Ok, that's fair. More customers, more cash and more investment to earn even more cash. Just take a look in the other MMOs. If you say that graphics aren't important, think again. EVE is hard to learn, hard to play and have sub-par graphics compared to other games. Take only the gameplay style first. People will quit EVE short after they started playing because it's difficult. Now, what appeal a difficult game with crap graphics from 5 years ago have to attract and hook new player to it? None. I love RPG games. There are lot's of incredible good games on NES and PS1. But the looks of these game are so damn ugly compared to today's games that I don't want to even think in playing them. I'm not saying drop SM2. I'm saying the game NEED to improve, either in gameplay and in graphics. I tested both Classic and Premium versions, and guess what? The premium runs a lot better in my PC than Classic, because Classic lacks the support to my hardware. I don't recall the Premium Client crashed to desktop any time, while I don't play for more than 3 hours straight, and even with 2-3 client running at the same time. So, stop comparing a computer built for WORK, a computer built for everyday simple tasks and a computer built for gaming.
LordRyan77 Gallente Ooops Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:00:00 - [928] Originally by: Hawk TT Originally by: Aleyra Mel Edited by: Aleyra Mel on 14/01/2009 09:56:34 You seem relly happy Hawk TT telling people to just go buy new PC, while you are ok with your uber duper machine. Point is that some people have other priorities in life and EVE is not one of the top. I for example only support SH2. No i dont think im gonna buy a new PC for just EVE. And no i wont give 300USD to buy a second hand almost crap PC jsut to be able to play a game. ight now. The people that without them EVE would have bankrupt years ago... 40 USD for a SM 3.0 AGP Card to upgrade your 6 years old PC and your finances would be ruined? or 30 USD for a SM 4.1 PCIe Card to upgrade your integrated graphics PC? I agree that NetBooks like Asus EEE would have difficulties running the EVE client, but I am going slightly mad when I read posts like "I will not be able to run 3 EVE clients at the same time anymore...I have 2-3 old machines and I can't upgrade all of them"... P.S. My "suppa-duppa machine" is an old Core 2 Duo [/b]1.86GHz w/ 2Gigs of RAM and I run 4 EVE clients all the time. If an EVE player could not afford spending 30-40 USD for a video card, how could he/she afford paying for the subscription? And yeah, by the way I live in Bulgaria - the poorest country in EU with AVERAGE MONTHLY SALARY OF 280 EUR. MONTHLY, NOT WEEKLY OR DAILY! SORRY, BUT I DON'T KNOW ANYONE WHO STILL USES SM 2.0 video card apart from the ATM machine 'round the corner... Wow, when did that big come old? My best PC is a Duo Core 2!
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:05:00 - [929] well this goes out to all of you whiners PLZ cancel your subscription and play something else if you think you can pressure a company into doing what you want by telling em you drop 2-5 accounts if they do not keep the old stuff PLZ MOVE ON and leave us alone your whining uses up valuable bandwidth we need for the game give us the ppl that actually upgrade their systems every 2-4 yeas a chance to enjoy the game even more with updated technologie and without having to wait even longer because they have to maintain 2 clients and codebase and again PLZ MOVE ALONG and do not stop advancement
Manetheren	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:12:00 - [930] Edited by: Manetheren on 16/01/2009 15:15:02 yea advance fast forward ccp even before you have a reliable premium client hehe what a joke!

zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:16:00 - [931] Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 15:16:18 heh fast forward huh you might wanna get your stuff straight sm3 is out since years many games only support sm3 what do you want? take you r 10 year old junk and play cs or doom and quit bothering us here
LordRyan77 Gallente Ooops Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:22:00 - [932] CCP is clearily doing something wrong! EVE is the greatest game ever! Still I don't know one person(rl) who plays EVE. I know dozens of people who play WOW. Why the hell would anyone want to be troll, and play a game with a bunch punkass kids? For those people with comments like: I'm tired of you whiners complaining about how am i gonna run my 5 accounts on 4 ancient machines. Heres the thing with that, I bought my second machine used because it could run EVE. I signed up for 4 account because both my premium and my crappy machine could both run EVE. There was no risk in buying used machines and multuple accounts because I could always fall back on classic(I hate classic). Last remark: Where the hell is my dual screen support, so i can throqw out that piece of crap and run all 4 of my accounts on a premium PC. LordRyan77
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:27:00 - [933] i don t know where your dual screen support is but i don t have a problem running 2 premium clients graphics on full blast and still get 83 fps per client and that on an old 7950
Jach Wong	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:33:00 - [934] To all those pointing out $50 video card upgrades: Most laptops don't have upgradable video cards. I have a 2007/2008 laptop that doesn't support SM3; it wasn't a low end laptop when I got it, it just wasn't a portable gaming machine. Sure, I have a tower at home with upgradable hardware, but I'm almost never home because I have a job. I play this game because it's fairly AFK friendly and because it's one of the few that runs on a Thinkpad, and I'm fairly confident from responses in this thread that I'm not alone. To CCP: please consider the following. If you abstract your rendering engine from the core game logic and networking, you can with relative ease develop one client with multiple rendering engines. Maintenance or the rendering engines could be fairly minimal, and as a side benefit you'd end up with a more manageable code base. If I've underestimated you, and you've already separated these segments of code, then there's really no good reason why you can't throw together an "Asteroids"-esque rendering engine and keep all your SM1 and SM2 users (it really doesn't need to be fancy or pretty).
LordRyan77 Gallente Ooops Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:34:00 - [935] Edited by: LordRyan77 on 16/01/2009 15:34:56 Edited by: LordRyan77 on 16/01/2009 15:34:27 Originally by: zombu2 i don t know where your dual screen support is but i don t have a problem running 2 premium clients graphics on full blast and still get 83 fps per client and that on an old 7950 My main is a 2 year old HP media center($3,000) no problem running 4 on preium. The 2nd PC is I don't have to shift between clients on mission. Dual screen support would remove that need. Mine
LordRyan77 Gallente Ooops Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:38:00 - [936] $429 $475 maybe I'll replace my 2nd PC with one of these. LordRyan77
Marcus Arelios Caldari Global Sheep Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:59:00 - [937] Originally by: Doublewhopper Originally by: Marcus Arelios Edited by: Marcus Arelios on 15/01/2009 22:05:23 Newegg: Can get a SM3 video card for $20, barely higher than one month of EVE. You can't expect CCP to keep paying and wasting time maintaining software that is outdated while the rest of the world keeps advancing. Can you think of any other game company in the world that is maintaining SM1 software? Not likely. Let alone one that is maintaining two versions of the same game for that hardware. You, my friend, tell me that you have never heard about the game they call World of Warcraft? World of Warcraft still keeps to its very first system requirements while also being able to be tuned up with features on the newest hardware. And i don't like it to play a game technical inferior to WoW because it is unable to run like it used to be. Might aswell play WoW on my belowed SM1 machines then... Wow is a failure of a game in my opinion. As a business tactic it worked beautiful, but as a game? Its too much like a job. There are only two reasons its still successful, 1) Tons of kids play it that don't know any better, 2) The people that have dedicated too much time and are now hooked/addicted to it. One of the reasons I liked EVE/CCP is because they were smart enough to design their game in a manner where they could update the graphics engine with a complete overhaul. Not too many games have done that. WoW needs it, but it won't happen because Blizzard doesn't really care that much about WoW, its all business for them. As long as people pay, who cares. Even their expansions are designed around keeping people playing, not really adding something useful. CCP does care about their game and is trying to make the necessary changes for improvement for all our benefit.
Zostera Minmatar SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:01:00 - [938] Edited by: Zostera on 16/01/2009 16:02:42 I run an FX5700 card using classic client. If you do indeed remove support for this card in the winter expansion, it is highly unlikely that I will be able to upgrade due to financial considerations. The limit on finances is due to disability, and finding the money each month simply to pay a subscription is tough. If further costs are required I won't have a choice. I am now wondering whether continuing to pay subs to even play until Winter expansion is simply going to be a waste of money. As I said, I am speaking for myself, but I am sure there are others out there who would find it equally hard to upgrade. Please don't force us out of a game we enjoy.
Pichonsita Caldari FILTHY MINKY CORP	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:05:00 - [939] i just want to play the game, i dont need grafics to play, classic grafics are still beatifull background and ships. If u put premium little is gona be great, all can support sm2 (at last most of them) if this change of sm3 only happens i will cancel my subscription, and i use only 1 char, dont flame about the multiaccount thing. dont make a mistake ccp, u gona screw it up this time if u allow only sm3 in a couple of months.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:09:00 - [940] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 16/01/2009 16:12:22 Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 16/01/2009 16:11:08 Originally by: Straight Chillen This seems like a very WoW~ish line of thinking to mee. I did have to laugh at this - clearly you've been ****ing about WoW so long that you blame it for all ills regardless of facts. The graphics are childish, and the system requirements don't even require Shader Model 1. A recommended* setup includes Shader Model 1. Originally by: Ruoska given the unreliability of the premium client. Those commenting that the premium client is unreliable - I am genuinely intrigued, and I'd imagine those at CCP are too - how is it unreliable? I've been playing on the premium client since it came out and had very little trouble - on two separate PCs with different Windows operating systems, and two different Nvidia cards. I think I had a brief period of crashes when CCP screwed up a patch and fixed it a few days later. That was it for me. Just curious to know more about others' experiences. Originally by: Shade Millith I would also like to know why a "no-graphics" option hasn't been made, for large fleets? Because a black screen makes for quite a difficult user experience. More seriously, the quality of the graphics strictly has no relation to what shader model is the bare minimum, except upwards (i.e. better graphics can need higher versions). An option that keeps everyone as boxes (stations, gates, ships), low detail objects, or icons and so on sounds theoretically possible, aside from little quirks like collision detection happening on the server and thus the movement/clipping of your objects on-screen would bear no resemblance to what they are actually colliding with. Of course, a good client will degrade graphics quality gracefully as FPS drops like a stone, and thus you wouldn't need the notion of separate clients at all... Originally by: Sky Marshal Originally by: Gebher'el As for laptop users, if you are running Intel graphics what are you thinking. That level of laptop was NEVER considered a gaming machine. There was a day than the same words was applied to... personal computers. PC [were] not meaning to play games. Buy a console ! They are less expensive and more powerful (Megadrive, Playstation, etc...). This changed. PC are no more considered only as a workstation for companies, but also as a good game system. Computer games pre-date consoles. The Amiga, the BBC Master, the PC, the Atari, they all had good games on them before the current console breed came out (although since some of the above plugged into a TV, I suppose you could argue they were precursor consoles). I still fondly recall Arcadians on the BBC - quality 8-bit graphics you could only normally find on arcade machines... How far we have come...

Marcus Arelios Caldari Global Sheep Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:10:00 - [941] Originally by: Danae Ori Are these the only upcoming changes in system requirements? No-one's happy to fork out extra $$$ on a game they've been happily playing for months, if not years. If CCP removes SM 2 support, I won't quit, but I will definitely think about it. I play Eve on a laptop and these machines are a headache to upgrade. Besides, isn't Eve's niche in gameplay not graphics? Sexy games have bombed in the past... Matrix Online, SWG, Stormreach, etc. due to poor gameplay issues. SWG failed for one reason and one reason only. SOE did not listen to their player base, EVER. They closed and locked forum posts with complaints. Then they decided to completely overhaul the game with a whole new premise completely screwing over any player that was there for more than a year. CCP has done nothing like that at all. They give us warning, they listen to us. They are listening to this post as it isn't locked/deleted yet. An EVE equivalent to what SOE did to SWG would be for the devs to post one day, next week we are eliminating capital ships. All you capital pilots? well you better start training something else now.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:12:00 - [942] Why did I start playing Eve? Because it had insane beautiful graphics and really reasonable hardware requirements for that. Since then I got more and more impressed by the gameplay (little I did know when I started playing...) but still. Is CCP now that mainstream already that they jump the bandwaggon and just throw the best available hardware at the problem to generate great graphics instead of good work? Comparing the graphics of other games, Eve is really really falling behind - sorry to say. No innovative approach used here, not to mention developed. Where are the backgrounds based on fractals? Where are the procedurally generated textures of planets? Where are the automatically generated individual storylines? Hell - even the in-game mail client is still absolutely crappy. And and and So ... enough of that ranting Just laughable. As soon as it is looking well for CCP (StacklessIO, Eve64 etc.) they are going berserk and shoot themselves into the foot. You can count on that, always. I wonder why. Increasing the minimum requirements by 2 shader generations within 9 months in the time of worldwide recession/depression is beyond and serious comment. Who in their right mind would do such a thing? Who would even CONSIDER that??! And 50 days before the biggest expansion they just mention the need for shader model 2 in a devblog which most of the people won't read? What sort of communication and community service is that?! I can understand that CCP wants to reduce the workload on their staff and therefore want to discontiune sm1 stuff - even though they would annoy a lot of people. And really ... announcing the impossibility of playing Eve for lots of laptop players (3% is absolutely not the right number as explained in many posts already) just a few weeks prior is absolutely bad style! Hiding that fact in an obscure devblog is even worse. Such an important fact needs to be at login-screen for many days in big letters! And to discontinue sm2? That is pure comedy - who has ever heard that a successful company forces their long term subscribers to stop playing and still stay successful? This will go ill for CCP if they really implement their considerations of discontinuing sm2. What is better? To lose a big part of the old, loyal and most dedicated community or to slow down development by a few paces and gear down the overdrive? For me the answer is obvious. For CCP also?
Solanio	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:23:00 - [943] the more I think about it the more funnier it gets In times of worldwide economic problems, CCP decides to increase their minimum specs by dropping SM1 / classic client, maybe even SM2 later this year. This will force alot of people to upgrade their set of hardware, if they want to continue playing the same way they do today. One group that is probably quite heavily affected by this, are people with multiple accounts because they currently run those accounts in classic mode in order to have playable performance (unless they already use one "good enough and future SM2/3 proof" PC per account). These changes are not just about SM1/2/3, I currently can run 3 accounts in classic nicely. But it's unplayable in premium because premium simply requires more ressources. Noone but CCP might gain from this cost saving measure (dont tell me you expect that freed up ressoucces will be allocated to other parts of EVE very quickly, those people doing the classic art might loose their job, yeah, much more likely if you know anything about how businesses are run, or watch the news). Where it gets really funny, I can easily afford one high end Alienware desktop for each of my accounts. I had actually planned to upgrade my desktop when I return back home in April (currently working abroad, using notebook for EVE, desktop stayed at home). Use that upgraded desktop as main machine and my 2 year old high end notebook for alts. But now I am a) being forced to do atleast that or b) buy even more new hardware stuff to keep running 3 accounts on either one or different machines with some performance as today, just to see little spaceships with premium graphics, if I actually decide to fully zoom in, which is useless in terms of game mechanics anyway. Just as useless as walking in stations. This is a spaceship game, not some WoW clone in space, where people can /dance and /bow and /kiss. Forcing people to spend extra money in order to just be able to keep playing the same game with the same performance. What a joke!
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:25:00 - [944] ccp might loose some players but i say let them go if their unwilling to a couple bucks for upgrades all unwilling to upgrade please go away and stop blocking eve's advancement to the greatest game ever finally admitt your computers are crap and do something about it invest the 50 bucks to all that bought those cheapo laptops ...you knew what you where buying and you always get what you pay for next time spend a couple hundred more on a laptop
Pichonsita Caldari FILTHY MINKY CORP	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:27:00 - [945] Originally by: zombu2 ccp might loose some players but i say let them go if their unwilling to a couple bucks for upgrades all unwilling to upgrade please go away and stop blocking eve's advancement to the greatest game ever finally admitt your computers are crap and do something about it invest the 50 bucks to all that bought those cheapo laptops ...you knew what you where buying and you always get what you pay for next time spend a couple hundred more on a laptop give me the money, because i dont ahve
Hollier	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:29:00 - [946] Ok i`ve actually DOWNGRADED ny machine to sm 2.0 capable only. I just about managed to find 1 2nd user card. I logged on to sisi got the usual small update and no option to test premium LITE, why not, this close to release ?
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:31:00 - [947] Originally by: Pichonsita give me the money, because i dont ahve what about you get a job ???
Casey Windstrom Gallente Nanobots Industries	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:35:00 - [948] Okay, I understand that games have to move forward to 'keep up with the times', and I certainly understand that maintaining two totally seperate code bases and artwork bases can be an utter pain in the ass.... but CCP? PLEASE don't drop support for the shader 2.0 model in winter 2009, if you do drop the classic version. Some of Eve's charm is the fact that I do not have to make my computer burst into flame to run it. I love the fact that you support older hardware, and considered it one of your greatest assets for supporting your players, not just trying to run screaming forward like the rest of the industry that thinks graphics is the best thing ever, and plot and content is secondary to bling. Bling is not what makes EVE Online great. I might suggest putting an option into the client to let us report our graphics capabilities back to you, then you could get a good feeling for what your users are capable of, and what percentage you have using what, AND see perhaps what they're got themselves set to.. If a user can run premium, but still chooses to run classic, there's probably a damn good reason. (My roomates computer has a graphics card capable, but his disk IO sucks, so he runs classic.) Casey Windstrom
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:35:00 - [949] Originally by: zombu2 admitt your computers are crap and do something about it invest the 50 bucks Please tell me where I can get a new laptop for $50. Thanks.
Pichonsita Caldari FILTHY MINKY CORP	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:37:00 - [950] Originally by: zombu2 Originally by: Pichonsita give me the money, because i dont ahve what about you get a job ??? i got a job, and i can barelly pay 38 dollars every 3 months, i got to pay bills, food, the car and all RLF stuff, i dont get enough money to put it on a computer. and im not the only one whit this, not everyone has a premiun capable computer like u do or ahs the money to upgrade the current one.

zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:42:00 - [951] Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 16:42:59 Originally by: Casey Windstrom Okay, I understand that games have to move forward to 'keep up with the times', and I certainly understand that maintaining two totally seperate code bases and artwork bases can be an utter pain in the ass.... but CCP? PLEASE don't drop support for the shader 2.0 model in winter 2009, if you do drop the classic version. Some of Eve's charm is the fact that I do not have to make my computer burst into flame to run it. I love the fact that you support older hardware, and considered it one of your greatest assets for supporting your players, not just trying to run screaming forward like the rest of the industry that thinks graphics is the best thing ever, and plot and content is secondary to bling. Bling is not what makes EVE Online great. I might suggest putting an option into the client to let us report our graphics capabilities back to you, then you could get a good feeling for what your users are capable of, and what percentage you have using what, AND see perhaps what they're got themselves set to.. If a user can run premium, but still chooses to run classic, there's probably a damn good reason. (My roomates computer has a graphics card capable, but his disk IO sucks, so he runs classic.) Casey Windstrom i on t see the problem here are the specs fom the oldest pc i got and i run premium on it intel p4 2.2 1 gig ram 20 gig hdd running pio4 6200 nvidia agp 8x slot don t tell me anything about disk io since it has no problem running the premium with hdr on med i suggest your buddy cleans his pc from malware and other stuff that accumulated over the years or month of looking for xxx
Pichonsita Caldari FILTHY MINKY CORP	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:46:00 - [952] Originally by: zombu2 Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 16:42:59 Originally by: Casey Windstrom Okay, I understand that games have to move forward to 'keep up with the times', and I certainly understand that maintaining two totally seperate code bases and artwork bases can be an utter pain in the ass.... but CCP? PLEASE don't drop support for the shader 2.0 model in winter 2009, if you do drop the classic version. Some of Eve's charm is the fact that I do not have to make my computer burst into flame to run it. I love the fact that you support older hardware, and considered it one of your greatest assets for supporting your players, not just trying to run screaming forward like the rest of the industry that thinks graphics is the best thing ever, and plot and content is secondary to bling. Bling is not what makes EVE Online great. I might suggest putting an option into the client to let us report our graphics capabilities back to you, then you could get a good feeling for what your users are capable of, and what percentage you have using what, AND see perhaps what they're got themselves set to.. If a user can run premium, but still chooses to run classic, there's probably a damn good reason. (My roomates computer has a graphics card capable, but his disk IO sucks, so he runs classic.) Casey Windstrom i on t see the problem here are the specs fom the oldest pc i got and i run premium on it intel p4 2.2 1 gig ram 20 gig hdd running pio4 6200 nvidia agp 8x slot don t tell me anything about disk io since it has no problem running the premium with hdr on med i suggest your buddy cleans his pc from malware and other stuff that accumulated over the years or month of looking for xxx why u want less ppl in the server? play urself in premium and leave the rest alone. why u defend ccp to allow have less ppl playing and screw us?
Casey Windstrom Gallente Nanobots Industries	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:50:00 - [953] Edited by: Casey Windstrom on 16/01/2009 16:50:26 Originally by: zombu2 Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 16:42:59 i on t see the problem here are the specs fom the oldest pc i got and i run premium on it intel p4 2.2 1 gig ram 20 gig hdd running pio4 6200 nvidia agp 8x slot don t tell me anything about disk io since it has no problem running the premium with hdr on med i suggest your buddy cleans his pc from malware and other stuff that accumulated over the years or month of looking for xxx Umn, good for you? I'm glad your system has no problem. You're not running an e-machine. You apparently don't have the financial problems he has, or know his situation in the least. Good for you. I'm merely stating a situation, as it is, for a friend. My own machine is older, and I cannot run a shader 3.0. I don't have the money to utterly upgrade my computer, either. Other people do, AWESOME for them! I'm glad. However, I love Eve because I do not need to upgrade to play an awesome game I enjoy the hell out of, a game I put a lot of time and effort into, that I support whole heartedly, that I've gotten at least 20 people to try out. (75% of them continue to play Eve.) Therefor, I support what I love and enjoy. Please don't tell me it's as simple as upgrading my machine, when CCP asked for our views, what we run, and why we run it. Casey
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:50:00 - [954] Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 16:53:08 Quote: why u want less ppl in the server? play urself in premium and leave the rest alone. why u defend ccp to allow have less ppl playing and screw us? less ppl = less lag in jita and it won t be less ppl anyways it is just as simple as upgrading video 40$ maybe if you have only 512 ram you can invest in a set of 2x512 easily avaiable at compusa for 9.95$ so total cost of upgrade 49.95 and everybody that can afford to play a subscription based game can afford 50 bucks
DarkAstoria	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:57:00 - [955] Please just don't take away the shader 2! Certainly I can run whatever you come up with on my desktop, but one of my favorite things about Eve was that I could casually play on my laptop. Its only a year old and only has shader 2.
Pichonsita Caldari FILTHY MINKY CORP	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:57:00 - [956] Originally by: zombu2 Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 16:53:08 Quote: why u want less ppl in the server? play urself in premium and leave the rest alone. why u defend ccp to allow have less ppl playing and screw us? less ppl = less lag in jita and it won t be less ppl anyways it is just as simple as upgrading video 40$ maybe if you have only 512 ram you can invest in a set of 2x512 easily avaiable at compusa for 9.95$ so total cost of upgrade 49.95 and everybody that can afford to play a subscription based game can afford 50 bucks what part that i cant pay that money u dont understand? not everyone has the finnancial flexibity as u do, im from a country when we got the dolar devaluated 3.5 times higher than the usual. less ppl less lag? ua re a damm selfish man u are not looking into the topic CCP puted in u are jsut and idiot that only cares about himself. if u gona play just fine? why u post here?
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:00:00 - [957] Originally by: zombu2 finally admitt your computers are crap and do something about it invest the 50 bucks to all that bought those cheapo laptops ...you knew what you where buying and you always get what you pay for next time spend a couple hundred more on a laptop My "cheapo" laptop was over $2000 and purchased because it was well in excess of the requirements for Eve. As of March I will no longer be able to use it to play Eve, one of the main reasons I choose that specific machine. Just because this change is not impacting on you is no reason to belittle those who go have genuine concerns. If getting a new laptop is such a trivial thing, you are quite welcome to buy me one. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:02:00 - [958] Originally by: Pichonsita Originally by: zombu2 Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 16:53:08 Quote: why u want less ppl in the server? play urself in premium and leave the rest alone. why u defend ccp to allow have less ppl playing and screw us? less ppl = less lag in jita and it won t be less ppl anyways it is just as simple as upgrading video 40$ maybe if you have only 512 ram you can invest in a set of 2x512 easily avaiable at compusa for 9.95$ so total cost of upgrade 49.95 and everybody that can afford to play a subscription based game can afford 50 bucks what part that i cant pay that money u dont understand? not everyone has the finnancial flexibity as u do, im from a country when we got the dolar devaluated 3.5 times higher than the usual. less ppl less lag? ua re a damm selfish man u are not looking into the topic CCP puted in u are jsut and idiot that only cares about himself. if u gona play just fine? why u post here? i suggest you STFU and GTFO if all you can do is cussing and call ppl names at least i keep this conversation at a civilised level which obviously you can not
Hollier	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:04:00 - [959] Maybe people think i`m joking, like a lot of people who`ve posted -- I hate premium , i just want to play at the level of GFX i choose. I have gone out and spent money on an sm 2.0 capable card DOWNGRADING my machine from sm 3.0 JUST so i can test this premium LITE ! Now CCP zulupark, Explorer or Spectrum When will i be able to do THAT !
Pichonsita Caldari FILTHY MINKY CORP	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:07:00 - [960] Originally by: zombu2 Originally by: Pichonsita Originally by: zombu2 Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 16:53:08 Quote: why u want less ppl in the server? play urself in premium and leave the rest alone. why u defend ccp to allow have less ppl playing and screw us? less ppl = less lag in jita and it won t be less ppl anyways it is just as simple as upgrading video 40$ maybe if you have only 512 ram you can invest in a set of 2x512 easily avaiable at compusa for 9.95$ so total cost of upgrade 49.95 and everybody that can afford to play a subscription based game can afford 50 bucks what part that i cant pay that money u dont understand? not everyone has the finnancial flexibity as u do, im from a country when we got the dolar devaluated 3.5 times higher than the usual. less ppl less lag? ua re a damm selfish man u are not looking into the topic CCP puted in u are jsut and idiot that only cares about himself. if u gona play just fine? why u post here? i suggest you STFU and GTFO if all you can do is cussing and call ppl names at least i keep this conversation at a civilised level which obviously you can not civilised would be that u put urself in other ppl place and think what ua re saying, ppl can only run clasic on laptops and home pcs. you are not looking the matter u got 1gb ram ddr? or ddr2? if u have ddr1 u miss the point that u need to change ur mother board plus the microprocessor, not to mention some "extra" things u miss. and for laptops, go put a nvidia 6200 in a laptop, open it and see if it fits in. ur are dumb that u cant realize that? tell me when u think about that, or putted urself in other that cant play whit premiun, in any of ur posts? u cant see everyone is against ur comments? i thought u had a brain

Cogni Zant	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:10:00 - [961] Personally i think that CCP should alter the client to collect data reguarding players systems. This would give them acurate enough figures to work out what is a better option reguarding dropping SM2. As for dropping SM1, i'm suprised its not been dropped before this. For the most part there seems more players saying 'No' to dropping SM2 due to one reason or another. This i can understand as there are a number of players unable or unwilling to upgrade. For a lot of others it's not a case of upgrade but a new system, mainly laptop owners. I think that if CCP had siad 'We're thinking of dropping SM2 in 2 years time' most wouldn't be up in arms over it. With it being within the same year is hard to swallow. Although the possible dropping of SM2 won't effect me i'm hoping that its left in game for a while longer. It would be a sad loss to loose players because they can not or will not (as yet) upgrade or purchase new /2nd hand systems to continue playing Eve-Online. my 0.02p worth
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:13:00 - [962] Originally by: Avon Originally by: zombu2 finally admitt your computers are crap and do something about it invest the 50 bucks to all that bought those cheapo laptops ...you knew what you where buying and you always get what you pay for next time spend a couple hundred more on a laptop My "cheapo" laptop was over $2000 and purchased because it was well in excess of the requirements for Eve. As of March I will no longer be able to use it to play Eve, one of the main reasons I choose that specific machine. Just because this change is not impacting on you is no reason to belittle those who go have genuine concerns. If getting a new laptop is such a trivial thing, you are quite welcome to buy me one. look m8 no pun intended but you know as good as i do that the life of a laptop is even shorter then desktop pc's in regard of playing games also you know as good as i do that the laptop you payed 2k for is older then 1.5 years maybe 2 and you can not say because you payed so much money back in the day that ccp has to support outdated technology be honest we will have the same conversation everytime ccp changes something on the client affecting either convienience or older hardware and we always will be here complaining and arguing back and forth
Anisa Schardl	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:28:00 - [963] Ok, seriously, people need to look at the big picture here. It basically boils down to the question: How long do you want Eve to be around? If the answer is a long time, then the game has to evolve. They need to update it to keep it with the times, and that's what they're doing. If you want Eve to die out because it gets old and creaky, or you want it to be replaced by Eve 2 (in which case you probably won't be able to play anyway), then by all means they can keep the old stuff. That being said, I think discontinuing SM2 at the end of this year might be a bit hasty. Discontinuing SM1 in March, perfectly fine. Seriously, anyone who's still using a computer that can't support that requirement shouldn't be playing games on that system, period. Your projected numbers for people who don't have SM2 compatibility are probably accurate. However, I think your projected numbers for SM3 might be significantly off. Doesn't affect me at all, I upgrade my rig every couple of years. But I would recommend going ahead with the March plan and discontinuing classic and SM1, but hold off on SM2 for another year or so. Alternatively, you could do an ingame poll to determine how many people would be affected by discontinuing SM2, or add a system scan to the client to build a database of what your players are using. If the numbers of non-SM3 compatible people are indeed as low as you project, go ahead with the plan. If not, hold off on the plan for another year or so.
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:33:00 - [964] well this is something we probably can all argee to run a voluntary system check on the machines and see how it turnes out
Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:42:00 - [965] Just because a machine is SM3 capable doesn't mean that's we want to use that feature. My laptop tends to overheat and burn through its better in 40 minutes when using premium, while it'll run cooler and last a few hours using classic. I have a 2 year old laptop that gets a healthy 50fps in classic, and and slideshows along at 5fps in premium. People playing on plain old PC's wont have any problems, graphics cards are cheap. Sure if you have to get a PCI or AGP version you'll pay a premium, but still it'll be a couple of months worth of subscription fees.
Kariel Lateef Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:46:00 - [966] Ok I admit to not wading through this topic, 30 pages is a bit much. However here is my question, I'm technically inept and couldn't find the answer for this, will eve still run on this graphics as of march? Mobile intel 965 Express Chipset family, it's my laptop, it's my only computer and due to the wonderful economy i am unemployed and a new comp isn't on the books, I have been gifted Eve for the present and really don't want to let it go just because my comp will no longer run it. yeah what ever
Evil Catbert	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:47:00 - [967] I would recommend CCP use an EVE specific version of this type of hardware survey. Steam Hardware Survey This is a very poor comment to make in the development of any software - "What we don't know is exactly how many. We estimate that about 95% of all subscribers currently have hardware that is SM2 compatible." CCP "estimates" the hardware specification for a user base with no actual way to measure it. If I saw a survey published and the numbers support their "estimate" then I will agree that a change to specifications may be needed. Since no survey was conducted and no findings reported than CCP's estimate has a error of ¦100%
Cratos	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:56:00 - [968] be honest we will have the same conversation everytime ccp changes something on the client affecting either convienience or older hardware and we always will be here complaining and arguing back and forth True but its still gambling with subscribers this time they force people with older hardware to stop playing or upgrade and for different reasons some people can't spend money on new hardware even if they work, its so much else in RL the comes before money for entertainment. Its like someone said in hard times what do people try to save money on, daily newspaper or milk of these two things what do we need even if times are bad ? I don't know how its all over the world but here were I live I've seen computer hardware stors close down just in the last few months even lager once so I guess people do try to cut expenses. I can only speak for were I live
Bacabachaui Two Brothers Mining Corp.	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:06:00 - [969] I remember when Premium Graphics came out there was a dealy-o we could run to see if our system supported shader model 3. Is there anything like this for shader model 2? Or at least can someone point me to a game that REQUIRES shader model 2, that also has a free trial I can download and run just to see if I can get it to work on my machine (which will then prove I can at least run Eve in March, and maybe even play). Otherwise I am going to have to set a really long skill on March 9th and then figure out what I am going to doà
Shea Klant	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:09:00 - [970] Edited by: Shea Klant on 16/01/2009 18:13:05 Originally by: dahlbeck How will this affect Mac users running the classic client on less than stellar hardware... Why do you hate Steve, you are going to kill him with your negative waves. Everyone knows that Macs are superior to everything...period. Saying anything less is heresay.

Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:10:00 - [971] Originally by: CCP Explorer In Apocrypha, we are completing the Renovation project so that all art assets have a Premium version (counterpart to their Classic version). But we are also adding a lot of new art assets, such as Tech 3 ships. We are only developing Premium versions of those new art assets, since we would only be able to make half as many or it would twice as long if we continued to support the Classic edition. Dude, that was the most confusing thing ever. First, it was stated that planets and nebulae won't be in Apocrypha by t0rfi about two weeks ago, and that they MIGHT be in this summer at the earliest. But here you are completing the renovation project. So what is actually being upgraded visually besides some of the effects? Two, if you're only making premium versions of the new art assets, what exactly are Classic people going to see when a T3 ship warps in? And three, answer my question please. Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Leeham I hate to disturb the argument here regarding people being excluded but will Premium Light graphically represent prenium or classic? Premium Light will be an "auto-generated SM2 version" of the current Premium art content (which is SM3). Can you please address this comment I made on page 3? If you can autogenerate any quality level from the base assets, shouldn't it be possible to upgrade current Trinity graphics further? I mean, unless you force HDR+AA to ridiculous levels, hardware from the last 2-3 years runs EVE at stupidly high FPS.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:22:00 - [972] Originally by: Rex Lashar Two, if you're only making premium versions of the new art assets, what exactly are Classic people going to see when a T3 ship warps in? Nothing, because there won't be an Eve Classic then, that is the whole point. They can't be bothered to put the effort in, and would rather throw $2mil per year away in the hope they can claw it back from new subs. Sod the people who can't play, CCP don't care.
Suga H Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:27:00 - [973] I like the idea of Premium Lite, but I'd say don't drop SM2 until SM4 is the standard. Like you said, EVE has prided itself on being able to run on super low end computers, so don't take that away. I personally don't think I can upgrade to a SM3 card without having to upgrade my cpu, and I can't upgrade my cpu without a new motherboard and power supply. And by then, it's pretty much a new computer.
Bacabachaui Two Brothers Mining Corp.	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:29:00 - [974] Edited by: Bacabachaui on 16/01/2009 18:29:49 Originally by: Bacabachaui Edited by: Bacabachaui on 16/01/2009 07:07:42 I am having trouble trying to figure out if my laptop, a Dell B130 can run shader model 2. I bought it from Dell in September of 2007 and my display adapter is a Mobile Intel(R) 915GM/GMS,910GML Express Chipset Family. Anyone know? I clicked the link to the Wiki page and it lists Intel GMA 900, 950, 3000, 310 but it is not specifically listing my specs. Also I want to suggest "no" on going to shader model 3.0 for at least a few years. OK, I think I found my own answer and am posting it here just in case anyone else has the same computer and question as me. I found an article from 2004 that appears to confirm that my graphics (card?) Mobile Intel(R) 915GM/GMS,910GML Express Chipset Family does support Shader Model 2.0. Linkage
SoSiouxMe	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:36:00 - [975] After having the bejezus scared out of me by this thread that a review of my video cards capabilities found them both to be SM 3.0 capable. Laptop with GF7900Go Desktop with GF6800GS/XT The desktop only really does 1 client at a time now but the lappy does up to 4 at the same time with decent frame rates (30+ @ 4 clients - classic). I hope I can continue to run 4 clients one my lappy under the new system.
Kariel Lateef Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:38:00 - [976] Ok i found my answer posting here to help others Mobile intel 965 Express Chipset family supports shader 4
Anathema Matou Moonmaiden Ltd. Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:57:00 - [977] just the bare facts because everything else has been said: - Losing my notebook (Radeon M9 = SM1) for switching skills, industry jobs, market and having to resort to the PC for everything: inconvenient. Yeah, it's a bit old and might get an upgrade, but wasn't planned for another year. - The PC has SM3+, but runs the classic client. I dislike quite a few of the new ship models in premium, plus premium is so far much less stable than classic, nevermind the Linux problems. - My other notebook does SM2 (Radeon X300), of cause can't run the current premium client at all, but since some patch maybe 1.5 years ago the client is happily crashing the system every now and then. Good enough to switch skills from hotel rooms, but can't replace my other notebook. - From over 4 years of playing EVE I can summarize that time spent inside stations is at least as much, probably more like double, the time spent outside. So yes, I'm running missions sometimes, PvPing sometimes, but focusing on industry. Looking at the pages before this posting, it seems many of those players run on lower end rigs (or maybe it's the other way around, lower end rigs make people stick to industry instead of pew-pew). Whatever the number of customers you're risking in this progress, it might have a considerable higher effect on the industrial base of the game than any other part. I'll leave the conclusions from that to you. - I fully support the requests to finally give us a "thin client", 2D or whatever as long as it can do all the jobs one does in station (chatting, skills, industry, market/trading). Doesn't need the fancy graphics at all maybe with the exception of the portrait renderer. Just do it. It will probably allow you to keep most of the customers currently "written off", and give a decent bonus even to the "omg i haz l33t hardwarez" people. It might even help getting the courier contract system finally off the ground, lol.
Irillide	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:20:00 - [978] I understand the argument from those who want to still be able to run a second account on an older computer, or those wanting to run eve on an ultra portable laptop. But those that are saying they will have to leave eve due their computer not supporting sm3 and they can't afford to upgrade their card, in my eyes also shouldn't be able to afford the monthly cost for eve. Either that or they have their real life priorities majorly wrong. CCP will be doing these people a favor by forcing them to quit the game.
Jonak Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:35:00 - [979] Right now, only one of my PCs can run the Premium graphics. They other one just needs a new graphics card which I'm planning to upgrade anyway for other reasons. But my laptop may not be able to handle the 2.0 shaders. I'm not sure. It has a Mobile Intel 945GM Express chipset. I looked over the Intel site and there isn't a clear answer. Even though I'm taking a break from Eve right now, I'd like to be able to play when I do decide to come back. If my laptop can't handle it then I can no longer play at work and I will need a 3rd PC at home to handle my one account.
KISOGOKU	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:52:00 - [980] Edited by: KISOGOKU on 16/01/2009 19:57:55 http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Graphics-Media-Accelerator-950.2177.0.html it has Pixel Shader 2.0 and Vertex Shader 3.0 at intel wbsite http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/gma950/index.htm ,notebookcheks tells it has Shader Model 3.0 Originally by: Jonak But my laptop may not be able to handle the 2.0 shaders. I'm not sure. It has a Mobile Intel 945GM Express chipset.

ctx2007 Minmatar Icarus Ascending	Posted - 2009.01.16 20:17:00 - [981] my laptop is nearly 4 years old and has the ati mobile 9600 chipset which has smartshader2 classic runs fine on it, but i doubt lite premium will EVE is a game and a damn good one too
ceaon Gallente Porandor	Posted - 2009.01.16 20:35:00 - [982] Edited by: ceaon on 16/01/2009 20:36:29 worst arguments from player ever get real shader 2.0 is 5 year old if CCP was mine i should sell the SOE/EA just to ** off cry-allot-whit-no-reason- ***es . . .
Solanio	Posted - 2009.01.16 20:55:00 - [983] Dear CCP, what if someone started EVE one week ago, with a comp that exactly fullfills your current minimum system requirements for Classic, and this person subscribed right away for 12 months. Will there be any reimbursements to this person for those months after you discontinue Classic?
Fennicus Amarr Shoot To Thrill	Posted - 2009.01.16 20:55:00 - [984] Originally by: Anathema Matou - I fully support the requests to finally give us a "thin client", 2D or whatever as long as it can do all the jobs one does in station (chatting, skills, industry, market/trading). Doesn't need the fancy graphics at all maybe with the exception of the portrait renderer. Just do it. It will probably allow you to keep most of the customers currently "written off", and give a decent bonus even to the "omg i haz l33t hardwarez" people. It might even help getting the courier contract system finally off the ground, lol. I like that idea, some kind of super-light client with no fancy effects or ship graphics, just access to the skill changing, S&I etc. interfaces...
Rufus MacMaranth Gallente Shadow Front	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:05:00 - [985] Originally by: Irillide I understand the argument from those who want to still be able to run a second account on an older computer, or those wanting to run eve on an ultra portable laptop. But those that are saying they will have to leave eve due their computer not supporting sm3 and they can't afford to upgrade their card, in my eyes also shouldn't be able to afford the monthly cost for eve. Either that or they have their real life priorities majorly wrong. CCP will be doing these people a favor by forcing them to quit the game. You are a troll, sir. A stupid, ignorant, ridiculous troll. Please go back to your basement and play CS3.
Una D Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:14:00 - [986] Edited by: Una D on 16/01/2009 21:16:28 I'm not sure I like this change. While my main rig can easily cope with EVE my laptop is ancient (Pentium M 1,4GHz + ATI Mobility Radeon 9000). Upgrading the laptop due to eve is something I would rather not do. While we are at it I doubt that most long term players stay with eve due to the oh so shiny graphics. Most of us don't even see the space due to overview and OMGHUGE amounts of chat channels. Edit: This is really wrong time to force upgrades. I don't know about Iceland but over here the economy isn't in the best shape and I doubt that many people would like to be forced in to an upgrade).
angulion Gallente Axxeon	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:18:00 - [987] Originally by: Polinus Originally by: Helison CCP Explorer (or any other Dev), could you please answer the question about what will happen with the Linux client? Or did I just miss the answer? I would guess that you should wait on the results of MAC beta. Programming for a mac is very very close to programming for linux. If they make the engine work ok on mac OpenGl it will work ok for linux easily. Its just logical that they focus fist on MAc. But When that is working OK should be easy to achieve a linux premium client. While your answer about Mac and Linux being similar is true, there is deeper problems at least on the Linux side of things. Wine currently runs the Premium client and my laptop supports SM3, unfortunately premium client is a no-no for me since the whole screen gets crazy flickering, even when Eve is in windowed mode, due to ATI drivers being rather horrible (using latest catalyst 8.12). To say I'm a bit worried about the changes is a fact. Personally I would love CCP to make a native OpenGL client, or at the very least ditch transgamings old thing which never worked for me, don't do premium, and instead have a dedicated developer working with the Wine community ensuring compatibility. For main topic though, dropping SM1 is ok, dropping SM2 seems a bit premature even at end of 2009 imo.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:28:00 - [988] Edited by: Grarr Dexx on 16/01/2009 21:30:12 45 days of no Eve or forever no Eve? I'd have made my choice. Quote: Edit: This is really wrong time to force upgrades. I don't know about Iceland but over here the economy isn't in the best shape and I doubt that many people would like to be forced in to an upgrade). Don't whine about the economy when you are paying for a luxury product such as Eve. Click the link above the quote and be enlightened. Eve needs to advance, and it's always time for change. ----- Nexus stamps of approvalÖ count: 1
Onnen Mentar Murientor Tribe	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:37:00 - [989] I'm sure someone pointed it out already, but I "love" the difference between the message contained in the dev blog and in the PR announcement. Quote: New Dev Blog: I Can Totally Run That On My Amiga ... With EVE Online: Apocrypha, we want to phase out our Classic client for the new Premium Lite version, an improved, lower-end client that will make sure players with lower-end machines can enjoy the same beautiful visuals as others. The latter sending out the message that CCP is improving support for older PCs, the former clearly indicating they want to raise system requirements and phase out "classic" asap and the light version soon after, because obviously maintaining two clients is a lot more problematic than maintaining one. Let alone proper Linux and Mac support also. Why CCP want to move towards a single client is understandable, even though I hate the fact they intend to raise the requirements. Why the misinformation? I know PR is often just that, but I'm still hoping CCP wants to gain credibility rather than abandon it altogether. (PS: Feel free to correct me if my interpretation of either message send out by CCP is wrong.)
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:39:00 - [990] Surprised no one has linked this. For those of you that believe that high-tech sales are doing great and the industry isn't going to be affected by the economic downturns, I present this: Bye Bye Circuit City

Seishomaru	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:47:00 - [991] Originally by: Phoibos Edited by: Phoibos on 16/01/2009 11:57:05 Jefftaki your a good example of people that just don't care about people with less money everything moves forward don't care about people that fall behind just roll on. Its nasty to see that attitude in here when people complaining and fighting for their hobbies. You and others in here spit on people with less money thats really what you do.. Evolution those that can't adapt become victims Bla Bla Bla Thats why Starcraft,Warcraft series and CS etc still flourish is it? well I work 10 hours per day and earn about 580$ per MONTH, and that only because I have a master degree. And I lost a job in October. And I live alone so have to pay for all my expenses. Even so as I set eve as one of my main free time joys I do have a PC capable of running the premmium client. I really doubt very many eve players earn LESS money than I do, so not very many have really this excuse. If you earn even less than me than you really should NO be playing an MMO. I know its hard for a few but those are very few and its impossible to keep absolutely everyone happy. I personnaly like CCP will stop WASTING time on keeping a very very old graphic pipeline to put assets in new game stuff. The only thing wrong here is the timespan from annoucement to chance being TOO SHORT.
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:49:00 - [992] Originally by: Mikalya Surprised no one has linked this. For those of you that believe that high-tech sales are doing great and the industry isn't going to be affected by the economic downturns, I present this: Bye Bye Circuit City Maybe you missed the news this week that last trimester of 2008 was the best trimester in HISTORY of game industry with a bit over 28 BIL $
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:54:00 - [993] Originally by: Avon Originally by: zombu2 finally admitt your computers are crap and do something about it invest the 50 bucks to all that bought those cheapo laptops ...you knew what you where buying and you always get what you pay for next time spend a couple hundred more on a laptop My "cheapo" laptop was over $2000 and purchased because it was well in excess of the requirements for Eve. As of March I will no longer be able to use it to play Eve, one of the main reasons I choose that specific machine. Just because this change is not impacting on you is no reason to belittle those who go have genuine concerns. If getting a new laptop is such a trivial thing, you are quite welcome to buy me one. Well then you were not very smart on your choosing. If you had choosen a laptop to play eve you would have choosen one with SM3 already because of premium. You were not smart and now trying to blame others for it.
Doublewhopper	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:56:00 - [994] Question to CCP: Is there any chance or thought to make the new SM2 premium lite client compatible with Swiftshader 2.0 from Transgaming? This would mean software emulation of SM2 for SM1 computers. Right now the EVE client doesn't allow for non-EVE dlls in the EVE-Folder and i don't want to mess around with it. A demo can be found here: http://www.transgaming.com/products/swiftshader/
Una D Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:57:00 - [995] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Edited by: Grarr Dexx on 16/01/2009 21:30:12 45 days of no Eve or forever no Eve? I'd have made my choice. Quote: Edit: This is really wrong time to force upgrades. I don't know about Iceland but over here the economy isn't in the best shape and I doubt that many people would like to be forced in to an upgrade). Don't whine about the economy when you are paying for a luxury product such as Eve. Click the link above the quote and be enlightened. Eve needs to advance, and it's always time for change. I can afford any upgrades EVE needs (even if I may not like to invest the cash in to that ATM). But not everyone has same amount of available money. Graphics sells **** to idiots (consolers, wowers and similar low intelligence life). EVE sells due to it being an unique game. If shiny is only thing you have than it's game over.
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:58:00 - [996] Originally by: Polinus Maybe you missed the news this week that last trimester of 2008 was the best trimester in HISTORY of game industry with a bit over 28 BIL $ Maybe YOU missed the news that in the COMPUTER industry sales were down for both parts and new machines, except for laptops which were up 40% for Q3. You know, those machines that multiple people on these boards are saying aren't supposed to play Eve
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:59:00 - [997] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 16/01/2009 22:01:34 Originally by: Grarr Dexx Don't whine about the economy when you are paying for a luxury product such as Eve. Click the link above the quote and be enlightened. Eve needs to advance, and it's always time for change. Ok... Add a new graphic card on an old computer... An old computer who has maybe not enough power supply to be able to support this change in the system. Or this power support would be, if it wasn't so old (power supply lose efficiency by time). So we can add a power supply, same if 6600 don't use so much watts than one of our dual chip cards. Oh ****, Premium need so more Ram too, depending of how much was in the system in the first place. Ok, add it too. Computers today don't have the ability to be evolving easily. Change one component can require to change one another. So it is funny, it is not 40$ for all of this. It is tired to read not credible lessons.
Seishomaru	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:59:00 - [998] Originally by: Solanio Originally by: Avenger Garius Originally by: Solanio Classic is shiny enough to achieve this, therefore please discontinue premium version. Real visual junkies are not playing EVE for more than 2 months You're funny they worked so hard to get Trinity done and only not to long ago you really think they'd that proposal seriously? Lols. And in terms of people wanting statistical evidence. Where's the statistical evidence in that. I like my premium graphics and you know what, Classic is ugly to me and is not shiny enough. And before you label me as a visual junkie more than 1 and a half years. Do you run 3 acounts on one machine at once with premium content? I have a Athlon X2 3800 with 2 Gig ram and a 7600 GT card. Quite OLD hardware and I run 3 clients at same time yes on PREMIUM. with everything but bloom switched on. Not a problem at all, except for a previous period after a patch when CCP screwed with multiple clients.... I used to had some issues with 1 GIG ram. Back then 2 clients were ok 3 clients sometimes went down in performance. But with 2 GIG ram I can Run FINE even 4 accounts (but I cannot pay 4 accounts anymore)
Una D Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:59:00 - [999] Wouldn't it be easier to move over EVE to OpenGL and dump directx? Would make for much easier porting.
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:01:00 - [1000] Originally by: Mikalya Originally by: Polinus Maybe you missed the news this week that last trimester of 2008 was the best trimester in HISTORY of game industry with a bit over 28 BIL $ Maybe YOU missed the news that in the COMPUTER industry sales were down for both parts and new machines, except for laptops which were up 40% for Q3. You know, those machines that multiple people on these boards are saying aren't supposed to play Eve You know, there is a reason why NVIDIA proffits is 80% + from the traditional standalone cards...not from Notebook ones... how the machines used to WRITE EMAILS are sold means nothing on the GAME industry.

Salakka Caldari Drunk Butchers Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:02:00 - [1001] Already using heavily shaders, so just swap directx to opengl. Also models are not a problem, Granny 3d models works great in opengl environment (even Granny demo is opengl), tho Granny seems to also handle consoles ... hmm :)
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:04:00 - [1002] Originally by: Una D Wouldn't it be easier to move over EVE to OpenGL and dump directx? Would make for much easier porting. Would change absolutely NOTHIGN on this issue. Both DirectX and OpenGL use the same hardware underneath. OpenGL also have same feature capabilities like SM1 age SM 2 age etc... just OpenGL does not fixate them on a single brand name, but in a set of extensions names. The difficulty of supporting older hardware would change in nothing. Only advantage would be a easy and painless port to MAC and linux.
Bacabachaui Two Brothers Mining Corp.	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:09:00 - [1003] **I have a question for CCP** After researching the card on my 2 year old basic laptop, it says it supports shader model 2 but "does not support hardware T&L (Transform & Lightning) calculations (which is required for some games)." I have no idea what that means, but will this be a problem running the Lite version in March?
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:09:00 - [1004] Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 22:12:54 Originally by: angulion Originally by: Polinus Originally by: Helison CCP Explorer (or any other Dev), could you please answer the question about what will happen with the Linux client? Or did I just miss the answer? I would guess that you should wait on the results of MAC beta. Programming for a mac is very very close to programming for linux. If they make the engine work ok on mac OpenGl it will work ok for linux easily. Its just logical that they focus fist on MAc. But When that is working OK should be easy to achieve a linux premium client. While your answer about Mac and Linux being similar is true, there is deeper problems at least on the Linux side of things. Wine currently runs the Premium client and my laptop supports SM3, unfortunately premium client is a no-no for me since the whole screen gets crazy flickering, even when Eve is in windowed mode, due to ATI drivers being rather horrible (using latest catalyst 8.12). To say I'm a bit worried about the changes is a fact. Personally I would love CCP to make a native OpenGL client, or at the very least ditch transgamings old thing which never worked for me, don't do premium, and instead have a dedicated developer working with the Wine community ensuring compatibility. For main topic though, dropping SM1 is ok, dropping SM2 seems a bit premature even at end of 2009 imo. i have to agree with him on the transgaming thing i do belive transgaming is a bunch of bandits and pirates work with the winehq to make wine support eve in the full extent instead of giving it to transgaming who are making money of open source code turning it into a subscription based thing then stating they only charge for forum access YOU WANNA GAIN MORE PLAYERS HELP WINEHQ TO MAKE IT WORK 100% UNDER LINUX AND YOU WILL GAIN THOUSANDS (btw transgaming is not really seen as a good example in the open source community) think about it ccp it would be a great projct and really would help out wine as for linux and ati you better off getting a nvidia card the ati drivers are buggy and crap also ati does not care .Nvidia on the other hand has ppl that constantly work on the linux side of the drivers constantly fixing bugs (also most linux users use nvidia anyways)
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:19:00 - [1005] Originally by: Polinus how the machines used to WRITE EMAILS are sold means nothing on the GAME industry. Other than the FACT that those machines are what your potential customer base is buying, right now. And the highest selling portion of the industry. Which is what we are trying to explain to all the "you don't run games on a laptop" crowd: Laptops are the current popular choice of the average computer user. The "geeks" already have their higher-end machines if they can afford them so the customers you are trying to draw in are the non-geeks. Which are <wait for it......> Buying laptops and machines with integrated graphics cards. If your game doesn't support their hardware, they will go somewhere else even if they are interested. "All other games require this hardware too" doesn't work, because there are a lot fewer games in the potential competition with Eve, and the grand daddy of them all (WoW) doesn't require higher-end cards..... Is it worth it to exclude a sizable portion of your potential player-base, not to speak of current players that don't have the hardware, for a game where graphics is NOT the primary draw? I don't think so. And I doubt CCP has really considered it when they make comments like 97% of all machines will be SM 3.0 capable by November when every other survey of hardware says no way....
Una D Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:23:00 - [1006] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 16/01/2009 22:08:36 Originally by: Una D Wouldn't it be easier to move over EVE to OpenGL and dump directx? Would make for much easier porting. Would change absolutely NOTHIGN on this issue. Both DirectX and OpenGL use the same hardware underneath. OpenGL also have same feature capabilities like SM1 age SM 2 age etc... just OpenGL does not fixate them on a single brand name, but in a set of extensions names. OpenGL and DX are not software. They are a set of rules as an API that are implemented in HARDWARE by NVIDIA, AMD and INTEL basically. Each of them then supports a translation of that API to their direct hardware true API trough their drivers. SM3 basically means that your card can combute branches (IF this do this, else do that) and a few more frivolities (but the branches are the most important part) in the shader programs. Shader programs are procedures that the GPU execute for each pixel. If the effect needs a branch on its computation, you need hardware that supports it, does not matter if its DX, OpenGL or a hoem invented API with homebrew drivers. Its exaclty the same. The difficulty of supporting older hardware would change in nothing. Only advantage would be a easy and painless port to MAC and linux. I wasn't thinking about the HW part. Just that it would be far easier to port to linux and mac (and perhaps even to solaris/freebsd if I'm really lucky).
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:45:00 - [1007] Edited by: Polinus on 16/01/2009 22:51:22 Edited by: Polinus on 16/01/2009 22:45:19 Originally by: Mikalya Originally by: Polinus how the machines used to WRITE EMAILS are sold means nothing on the GAME industry. Other than the FACT that those machines are what your potential customer base is buying, right now. And the highest selling portion of the industry. Which is what we are trying to explain to all the "you don't run games on a laptop" crowd: Laptops are the current popular choice of the average computer user. The "geeks" already have their higher-end machines if they can afford them so the customers you are trying to draw in are the non-geeks. Which are <wait for it......> Buying laptops and machines with integrated graphics cards. If your game doesn't support their hardware, they will go somewhere else even if they are interested. "All other games require this hardware too" doesn't work, because there are a lot fewer games in the potential competition with Eve, and the grand daddy of them all (WoW) doesn't require higher-end cards..... Is it worth it to exclude a sizable portion of your potential player-base, not to speak of current players that don't have the hardware, for a game where graphics is NOT the primary draw? I don't think so. And I doubt CCP has really considered it when they make comments like 97% of all machines will be SM 3.0 capable by November when every other survey of hardware says no way.... Quite sure CCP numbers RE wrong but... A lot of people are failing to grasp to the fact that the game industry cannot be halted by people WRONG decisions on game rigs. The game industry is a competitive and evolving one. Their techniques demand certain hardware class. They simply cannot hope to continue to have success unless they evolve their graphics. Its simple FACT Very VERY few games can resist long without high quality graphics. UO is still gameplay superior to MOST MMOs around, but its nearly DEAD as a economic possibility of MMO, main reason? Graphics, pure and simple Games must evolve. To evolve games must require better hardware. To support better hardware needs more work, work that eventually will be removed form the lower hardware options. Its the very same as you complaining the government changed the simple road between city A and city B into a highway and now you cannot use your 1917 vehicle because it doe snot reach the menimum safety requirements to run on those. Its not fault of the rest of the world that you cannot choose a car for the specific purpose of going from city A to city B. And you really cannot expect the world to be halted of their improved experience just because of your decision! Also the development of games needs investment, very few game houses can develop titles on their own resources. So few that I will call the names of most of them: Blizzard and ID.... Most development houses need investment, and just after the big publishers the MAJOR investors are HARDWARE MANUFACTURERS. NVIDIA, INTEL etc.. those are major players on that game. If you don 't please them, you get no cash. Its the cruel reality of the capitalism, if you can' t cope with it, well The world choose to live in this system. I repeat, your lack of understanding of what gaming is is no reason at all to prevent people with better understanding of enjoying the improvements the game industry can provide!
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:49:00 - [1008] Originally by: Bacabachaui **I have a question for CCP** After researching the card on my 2 year old basic laptop, it says it supports shader model 2 but "does not support hardware T&L (Transform & Lightning) calculations (which is required for some games)." I have no idea what that means, but will this be a problem running the Lite version in March? Its really hard to believe that are true results. You might need to recheck. Because since the advent of programable GPUs the TnL concept basically means Vertex shaders. And if your card doe snot support vertex shaders then it doe snot support even SM 1.0 If the T&L is made in software then the card is not processign the shader (At least the vertex part) therefore they cannot claim the card itself support any shader model at all!
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:56:00 - [1009] Originally by: Polinus Stuff And you are right in all those points, but that fails to take in account one minor detail: World-wide economic downturn. If CCP was making the decision during good economic times, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Making this decision during this time is a poor business decision, especially when all economic indicators show serious potential issues for the entertainment areas; when times get hard non-essential expenses get cut. It would be a lot wiser to let attrition run its course and kill off a good portion of those 2-3 year old machines by waiting until Winter 2010 to make this large of a change in hardware requirements.
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:59:00 - [1010] Edited by: Mikalya on 16/01/2009 23:00:27 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Its really hard to believe that are true results. You might need to recheck. Because since the advent of programable GPUs the TnL concept basically means Vertex shaders. And if your card doe snot support vertex shaders then it doe snot support even SM 1.0 If the T&L is made in software then the card is not processign the shader (At least the vertex part) therefore they cannot claim the card itself support any shader model at all! Welcome to the world of integrated Intel graphics His results are correct, I've seen other machines give the same. But he shouldn't have issues playing as the drivers will fool the software into running other than it being dog-slow (but what Intel card isn't).

Bacabachaui Two Brothers Mining Corp.	Posted - 2009.01.16 23:00:00 - [1011] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Bacabachaui **I have a question for CCP** After researching the card on my 2 year old basic laptop, it says it supports shader model 2 but "does not support hardware T&L (Transform & Lightning) calculations (which is required for some games)." I have no idea what that means, but will this be a problem running the Lite version in March? Its really hard to believe that are true results. You might need to recheck. Because since the advent of programable GPUs the TnL concept basically means Vertex shaders. And if your card doe snot support vertex shaders then it doe snot support even SM 1.0 If the T&L is made in software then the card is not processign the shader (At least the vertex part) therefore they cannot claim the card itself support any shader model at all! This is where I read it. It does say "It supports DirectX 9.0 with Shader Model 2.0 (Vertex Shader are calculated in Software - by the CPU) and OpenGL 1.4." But I have no idea what that means either :)
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.16 23:02:00 - [1012] Originally by: Bacabachaui This is where I read it. It does say "It supports DirectX 9.0 with Shader Model 2.0 (Vertex Shader are calculated in Software - by the CPU) and OpenGL 1.4." But I have no idea what that means either :) It will run. The driver does the emulation rather than the vertex shaders being built into hardware. Your performance might suck though.
Bacabachaui Two Brothers Mining Corp.	Posted - 2009.01.16 23:21:00 - [1013] Originally by: Mikalya Originally by: Bacabachaui This is where I read it. It does say "It supports DirectX 9.0 with Shader Model 2.0 (Vertex Shader are calculated in Software - by the CPU) and OpenGL 1.4." But I have no idea what that means either :) It will run. The driver does the emulation rather than the vertex shaders being built into hardware. Your performance might suck though. Thanks. I hope it is not too slow running just one client. I'll just have to roll with the punch and run SETI and compress my HD movies when I am not playing Eve :)
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.16 23:26:00 - [1014] Originally by: Bacabachaui Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Bacabachaui **I have a question for CCP** After researching the card on my 2 year old basic laptop, it says it supports shader model 2 but "does not support hardware T&L (Transform & Lightning) calculations (which is required for some games)." I have no idea what that means, but will this be a problem running the Lite version in March? Its really hard to believe that are true results. You might need to recheck. Because since the advent of programable GPUs the TnL concept basically means Vertex shaders. And if your card doe snot support vertex shaders then it doe snot support even SM 1.0 If the T&L is made in software then the card is not processign the shader (At least the vertex part) therefore they cannot claim the card itself support any shader model at all! This is where I read it. It does say "It supports DirectX 9.0 with Shader Model 2.0 (Vertex Shader are calculated in Software - by the CPU) and OpenGL 1.4." But I have no idea what that means either :) basically means Intel deceived you. By a true definition then they do not support SM2 at all on their CARD because SM 2 includes both pixel and vertex shader. Giving you a software implementation is useless since M$ already gives you one for free on windows. I wish someone big enough would sue a company for doing FAKE advertisement. That is why basically Never ever take a SIS or Intel card over an NVIDIA or AMD one. Never. They are on worse cases. 10 to 15 times superior hardware :( And the worse part is Intel makes propaganda that their mighty hardware will soon make standalone card outdated.. pff :(
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.16 23:43:00 - [1015] Originally by: Mikalya Originally by: Polinus Stuff And you are right in all those points, but that fails to take in account one minor detail: World-wide economic downturn. If CCP was making the decision during good economic times, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Making this decision during this time is a poor business decision, especially when all economic indicators show serious potential issues for the entertainment areas; when times get hard non-essential expenses get cut. It would be a lot wiser to let attrition run its course and kill off a good portion of those 2-3 year old machines by waiting until Winter 2010 to make this large of a change in hardware requirements. Nope I am not forgetting that. But you seem to forget that CCP is part of the world economy and they are on one of the countries that suffered most with it. They might need to cut costs and focus on a way to make their economy survive? Also the world crisis is on CREDIT offer. That has a large effect for companies, but should have near zero effect for SMART persons. because smart persons know to not depend on credit. People need to learn to not use credit to buy everything. The sooner they learn that the better they will get. I live in a 3rd world country and earn a little bit over 150$ per week. I never EVEr had ANY debts, never EVER used a credit card to buy anything except online stuff that requires it. And even then I pay the credit card bill ASAP. You know why this crisis suddenly made "hard" for people to buy new stuff? because they fail at money handling. People that need to use credit to buy a piece of computer hardware have MUCH more serious problems than playing eve. They should forget this stuff and go spend money on a home economy class and learn how to deal with their income. With the very little I earn, very little compared to any US our european player, I have 2 computer, a house I fully own (and without any bills to pay for it, 100% mine) and a car. Then I can buy very easily a new graphic card. Simply by saving 12% of my month income for 1 month. Or if I split in the next 10 months only 1.2% of my income. I know how to handle my income. The difficulty on buying stuff on the " economy crisis" its consumer fault. People that know how to handle and use money might be facing problems to buy a house or a car. But zero change they have problems to buy a new video card. Again people cannot push their own mistakes and low capabilities guilt upon others. Wonder why Brazilian banks and companies are among the few that have suffered nothing with crisis? Because in our crazy economic past they learned. Do not spend more than you have. The ones that learned that have on this economic crisis nothing more than a little inconvenience. So do not blame an immaterial concept on anything. The blamed people are the ones that exactly reach for credit to upgrade a gaming machine. And if you don 't do it, then you with 99% chance are not affected by it to buy the card, with the very exception of people that lost their jobs. But those should not be playing an MMO....
xXxSatsujinxXx Ascent of Ages Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.01.16 23:44:00 - [1016] Heya, just wondering if i'l get any performance hit on this. I'm on an inspiron 9100 (i know... it was a quick replacement after my previous machine went pop, but i've become stuck with it :() Running a Pentium 4 @ 3.4ghz, 1GB RAM, ATI radeon 9800 (which apparently supports SM2)... I currently get between 20-25fps for the most part on classic, just wondering if i'm likely to lose any FPS, cos quite frankly i can't afford to drop any... :( Either way i'l be upgrading soon(tm), i just need to know if i need to do it before march or december...
Viggen Caldari The Lunatic Asylum Notorious Organization of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.16 23:49:00 - [1017] This was the push I needed... thanks CCP! Have been considering buying a new system for a while now. Atm I have:- Pentium 4, 2.66GHz 1GB 333Mhz RAM 128MB ATi Radeon 9200 (SM1.1 max) No soundcard 120GB Hard Drive (slow) Windows XP Running classic at a poor frame rate but got used to it. But after playing Eve for over 5 years now, I'm not prepared to stop playing at any cost. So I've gone a bit crazy and ordered the following system:- Intel« CoreÖ i7 Quad Core Processor 12GB 1333MHz Triple Channel DDR3 SDRAM 2GB ATi Radeon HD4870 X2 Graphics, DirectX 10.1 (SM4.1) Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme 1TB (1000GB) Hard Drive Vista 64 bit Hoping this system will keep me playing Eve for a further 5 years Looking forward to having the game running fast and smooth, and a first look at the Premium client \o/ Not sure what to expect really lol Thanks again CCP
xXxSatsujinxXx Ascent of Ages Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.01.16 23:52:00 - [1018] Originally by: Viggen Intel« CoreÖ i7 Quad Core Processor 12GB 1333MHz Triple Channel DDR3 SDRAM 2GB ATi Radeon HD4870 X2 Graphics, DirectX 10.1 (SM4.1) Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme 1TB (1000GB) Hard Drive Vista 64 bit lol grats dude, thats gonna be EPIC lol i can only dream
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.17 00:04:00 - [1019] Originally by: xXxSatsujinxXx Heya, just wondering if i'l get any performance hit on this. I'm on an inspiron 9100 (i know... it was a quick replacement after my previous machine went pop, but i've become stuck with it :() Running a Pentium 4 @ 3.4ghz, 1GB RAM, ATI radeon 9800 (which apparently supports SM2)... I currently get between 20-25fps for the most part on classic, just wondering if i'm likely to lose any FPS, cos quite frankly i can't afford to drop any... :( Either way i'l be upgrading soon(tm), i just need to know if i need to do it before march or december... It should be running already a little bit faster than this, .. if you are not using a too high resolution. The 9800 card has a very good implementation of SM2. Don' t worry. The only thing I can think might be extressing too much your card is if you play in a resulution much higher than the ones that were common when this card was designed. That is a card from the 1280x1024 age. If you go higher than that, drop Anti aliasing or anisotropic filtering to safe on fill rate,
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.17 00:06:00 - [1020] Originally by: Viggen This was the push I needed... thanks CCP! Have been considering buying a new system for a while now. Atm I have:- Pentium 4, 2.66GHz 1GB 333Mhz RAM 128MB ATi Radeon 9200 (SM1.1 max) No soundcard 120GB Hard Drive (slow) Windows XP Running classic at a poor frame rate but got used to it. But after playing Eve for over 5 years now, I'm not prepared to stop playing at any cost. So I've gone a bit crazy and ordered the following system:- Intel« CoreÖ i7 Quad Core Processor 12GB 1333MHz Triple Channel DDR3 SDRAM 2GB ATi Radeon HD4870 X2 Graphics, DirectX 10.1 (SM4.1) Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme 1TB (1000GB) Hard Drive Vista 64 bit Hoping this system will keep me playing Eve for a further 5 years Looking forward to having the game running fast and smooth, and a first look at the Premium client \o/ Not sure what to expect really lol Thanks again CCP sorry to inform you that this won 't cut. ITs (sorry again to use this word) STUPID to spend taht much on s system today to hope to be ok in 5 years. If you spend 1/3 of that today you can run eve on max quality today and in 2 years you spend another 3rd of that and can upgrade for the next 2-3 years .. etc.... But that computer that look uber today wil be a CRAP PC in 5-6 years. And when that day happen by the cost of 1/4 of what you spend now you can buy a much better PC.

xXxSatsujinxXx Ascent of Ages Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.01.17 00:13:00 - [1021] Originally by: Kagura Nikon It should be running already a little bit faster than this, .. if you are not using a too high resolution. The 9800 card has a very good implementation of SM2. Don' t worry. The only thing I can think might be extressing too much your card is if you play in a resulution much higher than the ones that were common when this card was designed. That is a card from the 1280x1024 age. If you go higher than that, drop Anti aliasing or anisotropic filtering to safe on fill rate, Yah i run at 1680x1050, with no forced AA or AF (i think eve defaults to no AA and trilinear?) I just really need the screen real estate tbh :/ and when i first got the comp i did a fly around of local belts etc to get a rough idea of what i could run at, and strangely didn't see much difference (maybe 2-4fps) between 1280x800 and my current resolution. I'l have another check at 1280, maybe i just got it on a good day before... ^_^ Thanks for the answer about the SM2 also, has kind of put my mind at ease - for now
Viggen Caldari The Lunatic Asylum Notorious Organization of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.17 00:15:00 - [1022] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 17/01/2009 00:08:24 sorry to inform you that this won 't cut. ITs (sorry again to use this word) STUPID to spend taht much on s system today to hope to be ok in 5 years. If you spend 1/3 of that today you can run eve on max quality today and in 2 years you spend another 3rd of that and can upgrade for the next 2-3 years .. etc.... But that computer that look uber today wil be a CRAP PC in 5-6 years. And when that day happen by the cost of 1/4 of what you spend now you can buy a much better PC. If you want to play eve as a goal for your machine. Get a Dual core 2.4 GHz or more CPU. 2-4 GB DDR2 and a GeForce 9600. You can play with 4 accounts in premium with max graphics even on big battles (The server will slow down far before your machine). And that will cost 1/3 of what you propose. Yes its a lot of cash, but I wouldnt go as far as saying I'm stupid... why shouldnt I get a top spec machine for a game that I love so much.. I'll be able to enjoy it in its full glory for a long time at least which is all i want. I can afford it so why not, besides, I might get the bug of using high spec machines to enjoy my favorite hobby and upgrade again in a couple of years. Stupid, I dont think so... fortunate to be able to do this, yes I am.
Hanntaa	Posted - 2009.01.17 00:29:00 - [1023] most of you will probably disregarded this as a pointless post, but my laptop has just broken (inspiron 6400, carling and computers dont mix) which was able to run the classic client, but im obviously going to need a machine that needs to be able to run EVE after all the changes(SM3 compatible), im a student so a laptop will always be the best option but what laptop machine will be best and cheapest even with upgrades or changes? or is a desktop my only real future for EVE? any help would be appreciated because i really donÆt want give up EVE as many of your donÆt.
MrDover	Posted - 2009.01.17 00:45:00 - [1024] So I am a MacBook user and I currently play the game using an Intel GMA 950 graphics card, which I know is not supported but it plays never the less. The way I understand it, I will still be able to play because GMA 950's use ShaderModel 2.0. Is this correct?
mattbucci	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:04:00 - [1025] I purchased a new toshibia laptop last year. just a cheap budget pc. As i run both my clients on it will i still continue to be able to dual client? i only get about 20fps as it is. Here are my specs ProcessorAMD Athlon 64 X2 TK-55 / 1.8 GHz Multi-Core TechnologyDual-Core Data Bus Speed800 MHz Graphics Processor / VendorATI Radeon X1200 Video MemoryShared video memory (UMA) Max Allocated RAM Size319 MB Installed Size4 GB / 4 GB (max) TechnologyDDR2 SDRAM - 667 MHz
Kazzdawg	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:16:00 - [1026] man my laptop i bought 2 years ago still runs eve premium just fine, if you move a lot it makes a lot of sense to have a decent 15" ~5 lb laptop with a 7 series gpu or better. yeah, my eeepc wont be able to play it anymore probobly but to play eve on that kind of computer is painful. and if you own a desktop buy some bstock thing from evga.com a 8800gt like 100 bucks and you'll chew eve and spit it out easily. even a 50 buck card can rock the premium
TripodAl	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:20:00 - [1027] Budget SM3 laptop. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4318118&csid=ITD&body=MAIN#detailspecs Cheapest SM3.0 NEW laptop I could find. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4185323&csid=ITD&body=MAIN#detailspecs They are not too uncommon, Unfortunatly, gaming, when you do it. Its the definition of your computer. It is the singly most important question for 90% of pc buyers. Originally by: Hanntaa most of you will probably disregarded this as a pointless post, but my laptop has just broken (inspiron 6400, carling and computers dont mix) which was able to run the classic client, but im obviously going to need a machine that needs to be able to run EVE after all the changes(SM3 compatible), im a student so a laptop will always be the best option but what laptop machine will be best and cheapest even with upgrades or changes? or is a desktop my only real future for EVE? any help would be appreciated because i really donÆt want give up EVE as many of your donÆt.
Haral Reimo	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:21:00 - [1028] Edited by: Haral Reimo on 17/01/2009 01:24:35 Originally by: Avon My "cheapo" laptop was over $2000 and purchased because it was well in excess of the requirements for Eve. As of March I will no longer be able to use it to play Eve, one of the main reasons I choose that specific machine. Just because this change is not impacting on you is no reason to belittle those who go have genuine concerns. If getting a new laptop is such a trivial thing, you are quite welcome to buy me one. Wow, they saw you coming when you bought that computer. My laptop supports SM2. I bought it in September 2005, for about the same price as you paid. The battery is all but dead, 4 of the keys have fallen off and I've had to replace the plug on the power cable, as it disintegrated from heat. It will probably fall apart completely before SM2 is phased out at the end of the year. This laptop will still be able to play in March, but not in December, but I'm not worried. I don't use it for Eve, having spent $160 in November building a new desktop that support SM4.1 and plays premium at 90fps! You've got nearly a whole year during which to make an upgrade. You don't need a brand new, top end, high price gaming rig to play Eve in premium, you can do it on a tiny budget. If you can't save that much over the course of a year, then you need to reconsider spending the money you do on Eve. You don't NEED a laptop. You can build/buy a desktop for far cheaper.
mattbucci	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:23:00 - [1029] Originally by: TripodAl Budget SM3 laptop. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4318118&csid=ITD&body=MAIN#detailspecs Cheapest SM3.0 NEW laptop I could find. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4185323&csid=ITD&body=MAIN#detailspecs They are not too uncommon, Unfortunatly, gaming, when you do it. Its the definition of your computer. It is the singly most important question for 90% of pc buyers. Originally by: Hanntaa most of you will probably disregarded this as a pointless post, but my laptop has just broken (inspiron 6400, carling and computers dont mix) which was able to run the classic client, but im obviously going to need a machine that needs to be able to run EVE after all the changes(SM3 compatible), im a student so a laptop will always be the best option but what laptop machine will be best and cheapest even with upgrades or changes? or is a desktop my only real future for EVE? any help would be appreciated because i really donÆt want give up EVE as many of your donÆt. sir, have u seen the economy lately? there is no possable way i could justify replacing a laptop when my warenty hasn't even ran out. I can run half-life 2 episode 2 on high graphics, and gmod. I don't see why not eve....but i guess ccp doesn't care
mattbucci	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:24:00 - [1030] Originally by: Haral Reimo Originally by: Avon My "cheapo" laptop was over $2000 and purchased because it was well in excess of the requirements for Eve. As of March I will no longer be able to use it to play Eve, one of the main reasons I choose that specific machine. Just because this change is not impacting on you is no reason to belittle those who go have genuine concerns. If getting a new laptop is such a trivial thing, you are quite welcome to buy me one. Wow, they saw you coming when you bought that computer. My laptop supports SM2. I bought it in September 2005, for about the same price as you paid. The battery is all but dead, 4 of the keys have fallen off and I've had to replace the plug on the power cable, as it disintegrated from heat. It will probably fall apart completely before SM2 is phased out at the end of the year. This laptop will still be able to play in March, but not in December, but I'm not worried. I don't use it for Eve, having spent $160 in November building a new desktop that support SM4.1 and plays premium at 90fps! You've got nearly a whole year during which to make an upgrade. You don't need a brand new, top end, high price gaming rig to play Eve in premium, you can do it on a tiny budget. If you can't save that much over the course of a year, then you need to reconsider spending the money you do on Eve. how did u manage that man....linky linky lmao

Haral Reimo	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:30:00 - [1031] Edited by: Haral Reimo on 17/01/2009 01:31:46 Originally by: mattbucci Originally by: Haral Reimo This laptop will still be able to play in March, but not in December, but I'm not worried. I don't use it for Eve, having spent $160 in November building a new desktop that support SM4.1 and plays premium at 90fps! how did u manage that man....linky linky lmao I bought a cheap ASRock motherboard with onboard sound, Radeon HD 3650 graphics card, 2GB of ram. Bought a second-hand P4 3GHz from ebay. Re-used a 40GB IDE hard drive I had lying around, and an old display. You can easily pick up 15" LCD or large CRT monitors for free, many offices just throw them out. Second hand computer parts are cheap and easy to come across.
angulion Gallente Axxeon	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:31:00 - [1032] Edited by: angulion on 17/01/2009 01:38:27 Originally by: zombu2 Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 22:16:36 Edited by: zombu2 on 16/01/2009 22:12:54 Originally by: angulion While your answer about Mac and Linux being similar is true, there is deeper problems at least on the Linux side of things. Wine currently runs the Premium client and my laptop supports SM3, unfortunately premium client is a no-no for me since the whole screen gets crazy flickering, even when Eve is in windowed mode, due to ATI drivers being rather horrible (using latest catalyst 8.12). To say I'm a bit worried about the changes is a fact. Personally I would love CCP to make a native OpenGL client, or at the very least ditch transgamings old thing which never worked for me, don't do premium, and instead have a dedicated developer working with the Wine community ensuring compatibility. For main topic though, dropping SM1 is ok, dropping SM2 seems a bit premature even at end of 2009 imo. i have to agree with him on the transgaming thing i do belive transgaming is a bunch of bandits and pirates work with the winehq to make wine support eve in the full extent instead of giving it to transgaming who are making money of open source code turning it into a subscription based thing then stating they only charge for forum access YOU WANNA GAIN MORE PLAYERS HELP WINEHQ TO MAKE IT WORK 100% UNDER LINUX AND YOU WILL GAIN THOUSANDS (btw transgaming is not really seen as a good example in the open source community) think about it ccp it would be a great projct and really would help out wine as for linux and ati you better off getting a nvidia card the ati drivers are buggy and crap also ati does not care .Nvidia on the other hand has ppl that constantly work on the linux side of the drivers constantly fixing bugs (also most linux users use nvidia anyways) heh another thing is the transgaming client is bugged as hell and my wine install actually runs premium and hdr it s ocasionally missing a texture or 2 but i can live with that instead of the constant hangs and crashes from transgaming My laptop having an ATI card - it is/was a high-end laptop that I got from work, so I couldn't choose between Ati/Nvidia. My desktop of course has a Nvidia, unfortunately it is out of order for the time being (no extra bucks to fix it). Transgaming isn't actually bandits per se anymore, they had to fork wine to their own version in March 2002 when Wine changed license to LGPL. Since this time though, Cedega (Transgamings fork of Wine, aka WineX) have constantly been developed at a slower pace than Wine and for quite some time Wine have outdone it in all areas and more. From this perspective CCP paying Transgaming isn't quite wise either - in a year or two Cedega will likely be hopelessly outdated and will not support 64bit, pulseaudio etc.. And I agree transgamings client is buggy.. With the official linux Eve client I could never get even to the login screen. Wine worked almost without any tweaking. And yes, from my relatively short Eve time, I am somewhat disappointed with their "Linux support".. to put it mildly. To everyone else, sorry this went a little bit off-topic. Edit: Since AMD acquired ATI, the drivers have acctually gotten better, they are just not good yet.
Syriana	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:48:00 - [1033] So what do I do? I read that I'll be able to run premium-lite, but right now I only get 3-10 FPS running classic and Eve is the only program in the foreground with fewer background processes than average. My travel compy: Inspiron 1318, Core 2 Duo T3800 @ 2.4GHz, Vista 32b, 4GB RAM, Mobile Intel 965 Express. I'm away from home for a long next while. No solo combat for me atm... would be nice if I could. Even mission support is generally questionable for me.
WheatGrass Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:52:00 - [1034] How about this, CCP, create a project on SourceForge.net and let others create the desired low end hardware client for you. I'm no a programmer but do know how to donate and am willing to test. Just for fun, how about letting folks donate ISK to the project. It seems like a win / win scenario to me. CCP gets to abandon low end client development and players get a client that runs on 15 year old 8-bit computers (or newer). -Sorry if this notion has already been proposed. I'm not up for reviewing 35 pages of posts to find out.
Jake Silence	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:58:00 - [1035] Sadly, this computer will not run Premium Lite. Buying a new computer just to play EVE, when it does everything else I need to use it for just fine is unreasonable, tbpfh.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.17 02:36:00 - [1036] Originally by: Haral Reimo Edited by: Haral Reimo on 17/01/2009 01:24:35 Originally by: Avon My "cheapo" laptop was over $2000 and purchased because it was well in excess of the requirements for Eve. As of March I will no longer be able to use it to play Eve, one of the main reasons I choose that specific machine. Just because this change is not impacting on you is no reason to belittle those who go have genuine concerns. If getting a new laptop is such a trivial thing, you are quite welcome to buy me one. Wow, they saw you coming when you bought that computer. My laptop supports SM2. I bought it in September 2005, for about the same price as you paid. Shader model 2 did not exist when I bought my laptop, so no, they didn't see me coming.
Ivisis Avisus	Posted - 2009.01.17 03:09:00 - [1037] Based on my 23 HW exp. Moving to SM3+ is bad choice as SM2 on 15" Laptop Monitor is more than enough. I have HD4870 but playing game on x800, x1050(some 9550 are detected like that), x1550 ,x1650, x1950, HD 2x00 and some HD 3000 Series cards are still available in AGP for low price and they can play Classic quite good. Industrialists, CEOs, Corporate managers, Trade Moguls,... really do not need top graphics to access Market, R&D, Corp Management and other non Pew-Pew stuff. Disabling Ghost Training OK after some thinking I've get over it due the fact that there is some sort of reason for that (no matter how small I think it is), but making users pay Real $ for some piece of HW is not reason at all and basically you will lost approximately same amount of $ that you request from users to spend on other companies rather than on EVE unless CCP has some sort of deal with AMD/nVidia/Intel to compensate $ loss or even make own GPU that will support EVE client next 3 years. Other issues regarding Coding resource to maintain two client engines there is real logic solution MAPS 4096x4096 -> 1024x1024 or even 512x512, Polygons full -> 1/3, few others that really do not need much Human resource and $. Example: Every 3D rendering app have Full rendering and Fast preview Rendering on same object. As conclusion I would only add that users have low-end machines know what they have and keep in mind that they rather pay for EVE than save for better HW. If I invest $140 to play my second account on my other low-end PC I would surely not be satisfied to invest additional $140+ to new GPU which will rise EVE cost from $280 to $420 a year, but would rather put $280 into Home PC upgrade and canceled second Account to save me $140 for Home PC upgrade that will go to AMD/nVidia/Intel and not to CCP I really hope that you have good contract with manufacturers or CCP will be in deep problems if not already as looking into these calculations CCP just lost $140 and put $280 into others pockets. My Current Setting: HTPC: AMD X2 4400+ 2GB Ram ATi All-In-Wonder x800XT AGP 74GB HDD 1GB Lan (For Home Network) Logitech EX110 (Keyboard and Mouse) Philips 32PF3320 32" TV with DVI-I Which work flawlessly With EVE Classic and for most that HTPC can offer a reason to add more $ just for EVE I doubt.
SheriffFruitfly Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.17 03:17:00 - [1038] "Apocrypha is more than just wormholes and Tech 3 customizable ship technology." No, it's not - I don't care if you can make a toaster run eve with prem graphics.
Emotek	Posted - 2009.01.17 03:23:00 - [1039] My computer can not support Pixel Shader 3. Will there be anything to rectify that? I am interested in buying full year subscription but I am afraid that if I do, then I will not be able to use it. I bought one last year.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.17 03:47:00 - [1040] Originally by: WheatGrass How about this, CCP, create a project on SourceForge.net and let others create the desired low end hardware client for you. I'm no a programmer but do know how to donate and am willing to test. Just for fun, how about letting folks donate ISK to the project. It seems like a win / win scenario to me. CCP gets to abandon low end client development and players get a client that runs on 15 year old 8-bit computers (or newer). -Sorry if this notion has already been proposed. I'm not up for reviewing 35 pages of posts to find out. Yes, let us voluntarily give out the source code. ----- Nexus stamps of approvalÖ count: 1

WheatGrass Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.17 04:07:00 - [1041] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Yes, let us voluntarily give out the source code. Though not part of the original suggestion, such a contribution to the project would require careful consideration by CCP. I'm not sure how big of a help advanced graphics code would be to a project focused on low end equipment. At a minimum, some initial guidance by CCP would be required. Such guidance would likely include API information.
Axel Vindislaga	Posted - 2009.01.17 04:18:00 - [1042] When Armed Assault 2 is in my hands I will have a Liquid Cooled BFG 1BG 280 GX2 ( or whatever)...I get irritated because whatever is being used to make the Eveness on my screen smashes my Dual Core up to like 90%...I don't think my GPU is even being used I get lag when watching a movie simultaneously and that I do not like. Forgive me but ... What is a "Laptop"???.. I have been a gamer for a very long time and if there was a gaming platform called a "Laptop" I'd know about it. As way of explanation to the previous comment. A laptop is just not a gaming device... and that Black Hole Mode sounds like what needs to be done so that people can attempt to game on their portable word processor. The gaming industry runs on Glitzy Screen shots and has for a long time... I personally believe that EVE can't afford to compromise especially with the coming release of WIS. Impressive pics and videos need to be all over the game review sites to gain the interest of the many thousands of "graphics *****s" out there. I am not one of these people. I simply acquire the tech required to execute the games I am interested in. Supporting ancient tech seems to me to be just too costly and the trade off between lost subscriptions and saved DEV time a delicate one. Well done and good luck CCP I am considering a second account
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.17 04:22:00 - [1043] Edited by: zombu2 on 17/01/2009 04:24:21 Originally by: angulion Edited by: angulion on 17/01/2009 01:38:27 Originally by: zombu2 Originally by: angulion While your answer about Mac and Linux being similar is true, there is deeper problems at least on the Linux side of things. Wine currently runs the Premium client and my laptop supports SM3, unfortunately premium client is a no-no for me since the whole screen gets crazy flickering, even when Eve is in windowed mode, due to ATI drivers being rather horrible (using latest catalyst 8.12). To say I'm a bit worried about the changes is a fact. Personally I would love CCP to make a native OpenGL client, or at the very least ditch transgamings old thing which never worked for me, don't do premium, and instead have a dedicated developer working with the Wine community ensuring compatibility. For main topic though, dropping SM1 is ok, dropping SM2 seems a bit premature even at end of 2009 imo. i have to agree with him on the transgaming thing i do belive transgaming is a bunch of bandits and pirates work with the winehq to make wine support eve in the full extent instead of giving it to transgaming who are making money of open source code turning it into a subscription based thing then stating they only charge for forum access YOU WANNA GAIN MORE PLAYERS HELP WINEHQ TO MAKE IT WORK 100% UNDER LINUX AND YOU WILL GAIN THOUSANDS (btw transgaming is not really seen as a good example in the open source community) think about it ccp it would be a great projct and really would help out wine as for linux and ati you better off getting a nvidia card the ati drivers are buggy and crap also ati does not care .Nvidia on the other hand has ppl that constantly work on the linux side of the drivers constantly fixing bugs (also most linux users use nvidia anyways) heh another thing is the transgaming client is bugged as hell and my wine install actually runs premium and hdr it s ocasionally missing a texture or 2 but i can live with that instead of the constant hangs and crashes from transgaming My laptop having an ATI card - it is/was a high-end laptop that I got from work, so I couldn't choose between Ati/Nvidia. My desktop of course has a Nvidia, unfortunately it is out of order for the time being (no extra bucks to fix it). Transgaming isn't actually bandits per se anymore, they had to fork wine to their own version in March 2002 when Wine changed license to LGPL. Since this time though, Cedega (Transgamings fork of Wine, aka WineX) have constantly been developed at a slower pace than Wine and for quite some time Wine have outdone it in all areas and more. From this perspective CCP paying Transgaming isn't quite wise either - in a year or two Cedega will likely be hopelessly outdated and will not support 64bit, pulseaudio etc.. And I agree transgamings client is buggy.. With the official linux Eve client I could never get even to the login screen. Wine worked almost without any tweaking. And yes, from my relatively short Eve time, I am somewhat disappointed with their "Linux support".. to put it mildly. To everyone else, sorry this went a little bit off-topic. Edit: Since AMD acquired ATI, the drivers have acctually gotten better, they are just not good yet. ] well transgaming is still stolen from wine in my opinion and ccp should have never done anything with them in the first place if they would have asked the wine developers they would have helped them out for free (well i guess prolly expecting a lil donation ) but still way less then transgaming since wine devs are actually interested in making their stuff better instead of milking as much money out of it as they can with ***ty software ccp get your money back transgaming will never be able to fix it right give it to wine and see what they come up with in 3 month i garantee they will have a solution to the problem with premium graphics on nix system we have hdr working ..does transgaming????
Astro Glyde	Posted - 2009.01.17 06:20:00 - [1044] Dude, you'll need 2 megs of Chip for that.
Una D Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace	Posted - 2009.01.17 06:25:00 - [1045] Originally by: Viggen Originally by: Kagura Nikon Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 17/01/2009 00:08:24 sorry to inform you that this won 't cut. ITs (sorry again to use this word) STUPID to spend taht much on s system today to hope to be ok in 5 years. If you spend 1/3 of that today you can run eve on max quality today and in 2 years you spend another 3rd of that and can upgrade for the next 2-3 years .. etc.... But that computer that look uber today wil be a CRAP PC in 5-6 years. And when that day happen by the cost of 1/4 of what you spend now you can buy a much better PC. If you want to play eve as a goal for your machine. Get a Dual core 2.4 GHz or more CPU. 2-4 GB DDR2 and a GeForce 9600. You can play with 4 accounts in premium with max graphics even on big battles (The server will slow down far before your machine). And that will cost 1/3 of what you propose. Yes its a lot of cash, but I wouldnt go as far as saying I'm stupid... why shouldnt I get a top spec machine for a game that I love so much.. I'll be able to enjoy it in its full glory for a long time at least which is all i want. I can afford it so why not, besides, I might get the bug of using high spec machines to enjoy my favorite hobby and upgrade again in a couple of years. Stupid, I dont think so... fortunate to be able to do this, yes I am. I think that correct word would be suboptimal. Yes it's a fast system but not so fast that it justifies the price tag. It's just not worth it. You could get a decent PC (Phenom II/Q series/c2d based one) for a lot less money and performance wouldn't be that much lower.
Mister Zero Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.17 07:59:00 - [1046] CCP, if you really wanna do something cool, make the Premium package something really Premium. Go for broke and make the reqs so outrageous that the liquid nitorgen guys will benchmark with it. The Standard package could be a migration of the current 'Premium' package, which, in reality, is not what I would consider Premium. Sure, it's pretty but it could be mind-blowing. As for the whiners and trolls, get a decade. Nobody gives a sht about you P3's running Voodoo Fx cards. FTW: Current Liquid-Cooled System on Vista 64 Ultimate; Mobo: ASUS Rampage Extreme CPU: Intel QX9650 @ 4GHz RAM: 8GB DDR3 Dominator @ 1600Mhz Video: 2x HD4870x2 (QuadFire) 2GB DDR5 HD Boot: 64GB Solid State RAID5*: 4x 400GB Velociraptor @ 10,000RPM (1.6TB)
Zakgram State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.01.17 08:55:00 - [1047] Originally by: Mister Zero CCP, if you really wanna do something cool, make the Premium package something really Premium. [snip] HD Boot: 64GB Solid State RAID5: 4x 400GB Velociraptor @ 10,000RPM (1.6TB) Most solid state drives (MLC) are slower than properly spinning 15k disks as soon as any writes are performed so I'd avoid them. RAID 5 isn't a good idea either - 4 x drives @ 110 IOPs@4k is only going to give you 440 IOPS, or 1.7MB/sec sustained random I/O. In fleet battles you really want mooooorrrre. Now... to really make it premium then I suggest something like the TMS 500 - over 100k IOPs. I believe CCP use some for their database tier.
Zakgram State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:03:00 - [1048] Premium client on a 1.5 year laptop gets 15FPS. This laptop has a GeForce 7900GTX card, RAID 0 dual 7200rpm drives, and an FX60 cpu, so isn't exactly a lightweight. To compare with the classic engine I'm getting >60FPS (I'm running with interval one so 60 is the monitor limit). And the laptop display is 1900x1400. Sure, I can drop the resolution to get more FPS out of premium but laptop displays don't scale back well and it seems a shame to have spent all that money to run a game in 1024x768. Oh - and the premium graphics are just as dull / exciting as the classic ones. I see little difference that I care about. I'd also second requests for an elite style graphics so that I can use my works laptop when needed - even modern business laptops have entirely useless graphics cards.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:27:00 - [1049] Originally by: Viggen Originally by: Kagura Nikon Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 17/01/2009 00:08:24 sorry to inform you that this won 't cut. ITs (sorry again to use this word) STUPID to spend taht much on s system today to hope to be ok in 5 years. If you spend 1/3 of that today you can run eve on max quality today and in 2 years you spend another 3rd of that and can upgrade for the next 2-3 years .. etc.... But that computer that look uber today wil be a CRAP PC in 5-6 years. And when that day happen by the cost of 1/4 of what you spend now you can buy a much better PC. If you want to play eve as a goal for your machine. Get a Dual core 2.4 GHz or more CPU. 2-4 GB DDR2 and a GeForce 9600. You can play with 4 accounts in premium with max graphics even on big battles (The server will slow down far before your machine). And that will cost 1/3 of what you propose. Yes its a lot of cash, but I wouldnt go as far as saying I'm stupid... why shouldnt I get a top spec machine for a game that I love so much.. I'll be able to enjoy it in its full glory for a long time at least which is all i want. I can afford it so why not, besides, I might get the bug of using high spec machines to enjoy my favorite hobby and upgrade again in a couple of years. Stupid, I dont think so... fortunate to be able to do this, yes I am. I didn't intended to say YOU are stupid. But to say its stupid to think that by wasting a ton of money today you can hope to still play in 5 years. This PC will be crap in 5 years. But if you spend half of that now you can have a very good pc now. and in 3 years spend the other half and have a PC much better then this one you planing. Got it? The ONLY way to keep yourself able to always play good games is to change computer often. Not to go for high end. If you get a MID end computer every 2 years you will be spending less than a high end and will have a better machine. A 3 years ago TOP computer is QUITE inferior to a today's mid end computer.
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:29:00 - [1050] Edited by: zombu2 on 17/01/2009 09:31:14 Originally by: Zakgram Premium client on a 1.5 year laptop gets 15FPS. This laptop has a GeForce 7900GTX card, RAID 0 dual 7200rpm drives, and an FX60 cpu, so isn't exactly a lightweight. To compare with the classic engine I'm getting >60FPS (I'm running with interval one so 60 is the monitor limit). And the laptop display is 1900x1400. Sure, I can drop the resolution to get more FPS out of premium but laptop displays don't scale back well and it seems a shame to have spent all that money to run a game in 1024x768. Oh - and the premium graphics are just as dull / exciting as the classic ones. I see little difference that I care about. I'd also second requests for an elite style graphics so that I can use my works laptop when needed - even modern business laptops have entirely useless graphics cards. i belive you are referring to the ORCA FX-260 well the specs are not as great anymore but should work well with premium amd fx-60 nVidia Go 7900 GTX Video Adapter with 512MB of DDR3 Video Memory the go version of the 7900 is badly watered down anyways your system will support sm3 and you should not have a problem with it Funny how ppl are allowed to sell computers while having no idea about Mb MHZ Mbit read and laugh

Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:31:00 - [1051] Originally by: mattbucci I purchased a new toshibia laptop last year. just a cheap budget pc. As i run both my clients on it will i still continue to be able to dual client? i only get about 20fps as it is. Here are my specs ProcessorAMD Athlon 64 X2 TK-55 / 1.8 GHz Multi-Core TechnologyDual-Core Data Bus Speed800 MHz Graphics Processor / VendorATI Radeon X1200 Video MemoryShared video memory (UMA) Max Allocated RAM Size319 MB Installed Size4 GB / 4 GB (max) TechnologyDDR2 SDRAM - 667 MHz with 4GB ram you will have no problem. GPU power is not related at the number of clients you can use because the pixels of only 1 are showing at any moment. Premium uses more memory of the computer and this is the main cause of some people being unable to play with so many programs running.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:35:00 - [1052] Originally by: Syriana So what do I do? I read that I'll be able to run premium-lite, but right now I only get 3-10 FPS running classic and Eve is the only program in the foreground with fewer background processes than average. My travel compy: Inspiron 1318, Core 2 Duo T3800 @ 2.4GHz, Vista 32b, 4GB RAM, Mobile Intel 965 Express. I'm away from home for a long next while. No solo combat for me atm... would be nice if I could. Even mission support is generally questionable for me. the important part is.. what is running in background? I have a friend with a similar computer and in classic he gets 60+ fps . So there is something going wrong there...
Irridius Starfire	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:57:00 - [1053] Step one (Premium Lite) sounds good -- it seems like it's not open to discussion in any case, but I like your reasoning about dual pipelines. SM1 cards are doorstops. Step two is a lot wore worrying. My setup (AMD X4 9500, 3gb, R4850) can handle twin premiums but I run twin classics occasionally in hot weather (drops GPU memory temp by 20c) and large fleet battles. It's not just about video cards! Classic has a lighter load with regard to storage access and installation size (two premium installs may break some itty-hard drives I guess). My point is, it's not just whether certain hardware can run one Premium Lite instance, you must consider multi-clients and other reasons for running classic. Secondly, according to the Steam Hardware Survey 20% of people have shader model 2 cards at the moment. Are you willing to force 20% of people to upgrade or quit? Another argument for maintaining SM2 support is the massive amount of laptops out there with 850's and 3100's. Although I've never tried it I'd imagine that actually playing with these chipsets would only be useful in-station, but great for market access, etc on the run. Eve isn't an FPS or twitch-game (well, it doesn't have to be played as a twitch-game ). Don't force people to have top hardware just because it will "look pretty". Many games currently have a shader model 2 version.
Lusulpher Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.17 10:29:00 - [1054] Edited by: Lusulpher on 17/01/2009 10:30:18 Originally by: jokerb Would CCP be willing to introduce a method strictly for those docked to only render in station or even less just a basic character skill change area. I only ask because I do have a tablet pc that currently will only support classic. I only use it to change skills while I'm working / class But I would not be surprised to find that there are many others in a similar boat. Again if its too much hassle/work not a big deal, just a humble request :) Discussed in the largest of the presentations at Fanfest.('Taking over your life'/COSMOS 2.0 section) They are trying to use API more to manage the client for those who can't/won't/shouldn't log in, but still need to change character stuff. pretty considerate of them. Expect update 2010/Soon(TM). Imagine EVEMON with login abilities and market adjustment. EVElopedia is first part of this btw. Premium Lite pleznowkay. my laptop stopped displaying the text for EVE since before Premium came out. And my desktop on reduced settings makes me miss premium graphics. Classic looks quite crappy now. Phasing out SM2 not a good idea. Live and Let Die...All of it...null
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.17 10:44:00 - [1055] Originally by: Polinus Well then you were not very smart on your choosing. If you had choosen a laptop to play eve you would have choosen one with SM3 already because of premium. You were not smart and now trying to blame others for it. man your so stupid it hurts
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.17 10:45:00 - [1056] I`m fairly lucky that i only bought a 3 month subscription last time, prior to that i paid per month until i was sure i wanted to stay for the long term. Quite a few people posting here have talked about having six or twelve month subscriptions,and they have not had enough warning for this. Despite the disclaimers that all computer companies use in their EULA`s to cover their "backsides" -- Under British law (servers are in britain) a general contract between you and multiple clients must be seen as "Reasonable" by a Judge in a british court for it to be valid , I wonder how many judges in this country would see it as "Reasonable" that you cut off access to even 1 customer after making a 12 month contract with them without a refund . You must have had access to this information for long enough that it is going to be packaged for Atari very soon now and yet you gave Essentially NO warning to those signing up for a further 6 or 12 months. I find this incredibly arrogant on your part considering you are not selling a one off purchase off the shelf but a commitment to provide the product (and have it PAID for again and again) for a much longer Term than those games last.
Gorgosti Gallente Green Men Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.17 11:15:00 - [1057] I like the way this game heads technology-wise. However, maintaining SM2 wouldn't cost you a bit, as you only have to write those techniques once. There's no need for you guys to update those things again after you've made them, unless you come up with something totally new that looks completely unlike anything else (ok, perhaps if ambulation gets ever in the game, you'll have to write a skinshader that can do morphing targets), but even then, that would be a function in your shader file that you use for SM3, as that would be the only vertex-shader code that has to be run. And it as that doesn't take that much instructions, you still have enough left to do the pixelshading (texture + basic shadows shouldn't be a problem if written good). Concerning source code, you would only give yourself trouble if you remove SM2, as you have to remove all the checks at the render-methods, giving you plenty of chances to make little mistakes and debugging them can be a big pain as you would have to check every asset in the game whether or not they display correctly. Just leaving in the code won't much of an overhead, as you prove by letting it in the first half of the year. To all the people whining that they don't have a SM2 card (even for laptops, you CAN upgrade graphics cards on those btw): Get serious. You can probably get a gfx-card with SM2 support already on the internet for like 20$ or something. Also, if you're writing new shader techniques anyway, I agree with what someone in the beginning posted: write a plain one, just output the pixels with their texture, no lighting etc. That'll look horrible, but it would be quick (to the gfx-card haters: it would be faster then in classic, assuming that classic doesn't use the gfx-card or uses a fixed-pipeline)
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.17 11:19:00 - [1058] Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: Polinus Well then you were not very smart on your choosing. If you had choosen a laptop to play eve you would have choosen one with SM3 already because of premium. You were not smart and now trying to blame others for it. man your so stupid it hurts Nope its the simple truth. If you choose a computer specifically to play a game you then select a computer that can play that game well. If you don't do it its YOUR fail. I bought a machine to play even when premium was announced and specified as SM3. I wanted to play eve so I selected a SM3 capable machine. And as I already posted earlier I really doubt many eve players earn much less money than I do (or pay 80% import taxes as I do) so the "it was too expensive"card doe snot FIT! If you bought a machine to do other stuff and then decide to play eve is a completely different thing. But HE said he choosen it specifically to play eve. SO he failed big time!
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.17 11:22:00 - [1059] Originally by: Gorgosti Also, if you're writing new shader techniques anyway, I agree with what someone in the beginning posted: write a plain one, just output the pixels with their texture, no lighting etc. That'll look horrible, but it would be quick (to the gfx-card haters: it would be faster then in classic, assuming that classic doesn't use the gfx-card or uses a fixed-pipeline) There is a huge problem on that. That would cause CCP to loose A LOT of potential new subscribers. Because new players see the game in footages in youtube or at their friends machines. When they see a crappy graphic they will most of time decide to not spend their money on eve. Simple as that. The very simple PRESENCE of low quality graphics is detrimental to the game expansion market wise. So I can understand very well CCP wanting to raise the bar. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Shea Klant	Posted - 2009.01.17 11:45:00 - [1060] Edited by: Shea Klant on 17/01/2009 11:49:14 Originally by: Jilly Serkov Dear CCP, If you must go to a single client architechture - why not make it the classic client ? I bet you will lose fewer veterans by moving to the lowest common denominator than you will by trying to force hardware upgrades. Fanfest tech talk That is why. The classic client has been optimized as much as it can, the hardware and the software, cannot support most of what they want to implement. Yes you are correct, they would probably lose fewer veterans if they kept it, but they are not interested in running a little game for a small group of hard core games. That means the game needs to grow and that means new players. You are not going to get new players with 6 year old graphics. Besides a lot of us "Veterans" are tired of asteroid belts with 20 rocks in them, and a graphics engine that can barely handle 100 ships on it, and space background nebula maps that pretty much only vary in color. I see a lot of references to Half Life 2 on how they can run it on whatever clunker of a computer they have, but at the time the wailing was amazing about how the hardware demands were too high, when all they did was force everyone to upgrade past their $20 GeForce2 cards, to a $50 GeForce 3 card. That small bump gave them enough hardware to be able to make some truly wonderful games that would not have been possible with the old gear. I don't think it's to much for CCP to ask for people to have what is considered to be a very minimal amount of hardware.

Mitram Grey Group	Posted - 2009.01.17 11:49:00 - [1061] The premium gfx that is currently available is only of used by people with high-end systems. - Actually when do you see the prettier ship gfx? - When can you zoom in so close that you see it? When can you zoom in so close that you see it and concentrate on this new good art work? - How long will you be impressed by the new good art work? As long as there is no significant fps drop with the new gfx then go ahead. But I see a general big fps drop with premium gfx of about 30% - 50%. Maybe an option to disable the shaders completely should be tested. In a fleet battle no one will concentrate on the gfx. Everone will zoom out so that he gets a good overview. The problem will be stations because they are so huge that by zooming out you would end up seeing the whole station. Maybe you could build into the gfx-engine (and the sfx-engine) that if the fps drops too much and the game would become unplayable it automatically drops gfx/sfx features. Maybe you could build a more customizable LOD (maybe also for sfx) then just the LOD flag thats currently available. It should be possible to drop many features and even to skip some parts of the ship models. I strongly suggest that your development team anyway test the EVE client performance on 3 years old main-stream PC's in common situations (like missions, mining, PVE) to be prepared for our angry feedback.
Wawollie Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.01.17 11:49:00 - [1062] Edited by: Wawollie on 17/01/2009 11:57:36 Shader model 3 minimum : means I'll have to upgrade 2 systems to be able to run still 4 clients simultaneously. 2 on my main system with SM4.0, 2 on older systems. To me that is not a problem, however I can imagine that more ppl run eve this way. More brainstorming : Shader model 2.0 systems are most AGP based computers. Just buying a new graphics card won't cut it. To upgrade to 3.0 or 4.0 means upgrading Motherboard, CPU, Memory AND graphiccard. (most likely also new powersupply) Read : New computer.
Ab Tallen Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.17 11:51:00 - [1063] Originally by: Haral Reimo You don't NEED a laptop. You can build/buy a desktop for far cheaper. That's not the point though. EVE promotes an always-available / always-on lifestyle (the 0.0 sov-holding game is probably the most prominent example for that - and on the low end, there's timely skill changes). Players who participate in that kind of madness want to be able to log in at any time. Easiest to do if have your notebook with you. Also I guess there's a certain amount of users who play EVE just because of the modest hardware/GPU requirements in comparison to other games, and those are hit the most by any changes in that department. From my limited experience, EVE players are often not high-end PC gamers.
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.17 12:02:00 - [1064] A lot has been said on here about how people who can afford 2 or more accounts can afford to upgrade -- i can easily use a machine that is capable of these changes, But i would never agree that I have the right to tell others how to spend their money. It has been said many times on here that a lot of people CHOOSE to play this game because of the easy entry requirements. WELL the interesting thing about those comments is that for a long time CCP have enabled people to buy GTC`s off other people who have more money/less time to make iskies in game. This JUST became even easier to do because of the PLEX which must have taken at least SOME extra coding effort to make possible. So if this aspect of the game is popular enough to justify extra coding to enable those who can earn lots of iskies to essentially play without RL cash ,,,, where do all these comments about "you must be able to afford an upgrade if you can pay a subscription" stand ,in light of the fact that enough people must be using this feature to make it economically viable for CCP to write the code ????
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.01.17 12:18:00 - [1065] Originally by: Andrue If we could just render the inside of a station with environment loading disabled it would be useful. That way people relying on slightly crappy laptops can still chat to friends from their hotel room and change skills. This. I got a very nice stationary for playing at home, thank you very much, and I very much think it's sensible for CCP to develop "only" premium to cut workload etc etc. No problemo. But, I often carry with me an old, 192mb (!) RAM laptop with crappy onboard card. On travels it does everything I need. I can log in, swap skills, hell I even use it for vent/TS and to log in to scout or mine (as long as I don't have to move in space it works ok). Would be sad if I had to buy a new portable PC just to change skills and run TS/vent while travelling. One thing that impressed some of my RL friends (who I got interested in EVE) is how this game is up to date, even tho so old, and still is possible to play on a 192mb old laptop on a dialup connection while travelling. At the very least let us be able to log in to stations just to sort training and see channels/mails to keep up to date on old PC's. That's all. Remove all graphics from a setting in options - perfect.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.17 12:52:00 - [1066] Originally by: Polinus Nope its the simple truth. If you choose a computer specifically to play a game you then select a computer that can play that game well. If you don't do it its YOUR fail. If he selected his computer to play at Classic, then he didn't fail. You don't seem accept the fact that some players don't care about Premium and so about graphics, don't you ? Who has "Premium" only the name to be honest. I am now in Premium since only 3 months same if I had a computer who can support it since his coming out, and all things that I didn't really care, like ships & stations models as we don't zoom on them, has been redone. It is all changes that I see on Premium, ie Nothing that Classic didn't do. At least, it seems more stable on my computer so I keep it. So select a computer to play at Premium when Classic was enough would be a wallet fail some months ago. Anyway, it is not the real problem of this dev blog. They can delete support of SM 1.0 if they want, but it would be more accepted if they prevent players more than only two months before. It is only a proof that CCP don't care about his customers or don't realize the difficulty for some of them to upgrade.
SSgt Sniper Gallente legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.17 13:11:00 - [1067] Originally by: TripodAl I refuse to see CCP bullied into making an inferior graphics client, an inferior game. CCP needs to move forward no matter how badly you want to go backward. CCP cannot expect anyone to pay for a graphically inferior game. People like bright shiney fluffy things. If you want wireframes and map less graphics play Asteroids and Wolfenstein 3d. Seriously, its a NETbook. Not a GAMEbook. Ccp cannot help you wasted your money on hardware not intended for gaming or graphics accleration of anytype. The only reason your NETbook has this graphics accleration in the first place is to support flash and activex on websites. You sir, bought the bare mininum hardware for surfing a webpage. In all honesty, it is flipping amazing that eve runs perfectly fine on my PII500 with a Geforce Mx200. Im willing to bet ISK it will even loadup and operate on a Pentium Pro. The sad thing is the scam they used to sell you this wonderful netbook is the same scam you see in Jita all day long. Caldari Navy Raven 260mil isk! Ultimately CCP will pickup more gamers than they will lose simply from a major graphics upgrade. These days to many people the "engine" running a game is more important than the game itself. And to repeat the point already covered several times. You can upgrade any pc less than 5 years old to play new premium! For less than 100bucks! Originally by: Xennith posting from my acer aspire one, while lying in bed and just before i quickly change a skill over. am i going to be able to skillchange with my netbook once you do this, or are you considering allowing us to change skills via api if not? For gods sake screw your 'shiny graphics' (which incidentally aren't that shiny they're UGLY) we want good gameplay. Which, for the most part, THE CURRENT SITUATION PROVIDES AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. I do not wish to be forced into the premium version of 'shiny'. There's a reason all three computers I have runn classic even though one of them can handle the premium. I THINK IT'S UGLY IN PREMIUM! The game is not inferior with classic, in fact it's awesome and always was in classic. So by that logic we should dump premium graphics, right? No, you want your premium. Fine. But I want my classic. ------- CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.Poor PR in progress!
Mik kyo Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.17 13:13:00 - [1068] Originally by: Shea Klant I don't think it's to much for CCP to ask for people to have what is considered to be a very minimal amount of hardware. Shader model 3 cards are not a minimal amount of hardware, its basically saying you need a new pc to play eve. I don't think the main reason people play eve is to look at pretty graphics so what is the point in phasing out shader model 2, other than making people leave the game.
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.17 13:17:00 - [1069] Originally by: Polinus Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: Polinus Well then you were not very smart on your choosing. If you had choosen a laptop to play eve you would have choosen one with SM3 already because of premium. You were not smart and now trying to blame others for it. man your so stupid it hurts Nope its the simple truth. If you choose a computer specifically to play a game you then select a computer that can play that game well. If you don't do it its YOUR fail. I bought a machine to play even when premium was announced and specified as SM3. I wanted to play eve so I selected a SM3 capable machine. And as I already posted earlier I really doubt many eve players earn much less money than I do (or pay 80% import taxes as I do) so the "it was too expensive"card doe snot FIT! if you had botherd to actually read his posts before you started posting crap you would have noticed that he bought the pc before there ever was any premium graphics in eve imagine that, some of us actually played this game quite a few years before they updated the graphics
Bayushi Kitsuke Gallente Sigillum Militum Xpisti	Posted - 2009.01.17 13:18:00 - [1070] I remember back in the day that computer games was for gamers that invested into a gaming PC. Now I see people playing EvE online in systems that I would have thrown away several years ago and people playing WoW on laptops that generally wouldn't play many other games at all. Somewhere in the last few years, people now expect to play games on their **** systems. There's a cost to being a gamer on a PC and that's keeping your system up to date. Buying a laptop for gaming of any kind has always been a BAD IDEA. Laptops are mobility only, even those that promises to run games are terrible due to heat that shortens their lifespan. Personally, it's INSULTING as a gamer that a great game like EvE online doesn't challenge my OLD gaming system at all. I currently can easily run 4-5+ clients of eve online premium graphics. That's more clients then Everquest 2, more clients then Matrix Online, more clients then World of Warcraft. EvE online, at it's max is still eats LESS then all other modern MMOs. Personally, they NEED to move forward to be viable to their main target - Gamers. There's a new Space MMO coming out based on the Jumpgate series that will blow EvE online out of the waters. CCP realizes this and cutting out the fat (Lazy poor Americans that can't afford a gaming hobby) so they can compete with Jumpgate and other space MMOs coming out to retain their core chuck of players and continue to attract gamers. I believe this is a highly intelligent and, sadly for some, necessary move on their part. I know this sounds mean to some, but I will be looking forward to people to stop complaining about lag because their decade old laptop isn't keeping up. Let me put it to you this way, what you guys are asking is akin to a Playstation 2 to be able to run playstation 3 games - time to upgrade to a PS3 (Which is now only $299 >_<) - same goes for computers. Time to move on! Another question is: you're complaining about upgrading your system - WELCOME TO BEING A PC GAMER! If your computer can't run EvE online at premium graphics chances are you can't run any of good games made in the last few years. Good luck switching to a new MMO (Most MMOs that could ever run on your crap system is gone, dead, and zipped away to game hell). Lets move on. Gaming is a hobby to me and I'm eagerly looking forward to the next game that challenges me and makes me to upgrade my system. It means there's progress and that the games are getting better for my pleasure and enjoyment.

Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.17 13:22:00 - [1071] Edited by: Avon on 17/01/2009 13:26:56 Originally by: Sky Marshal Originally by: Polinus Nope its the simple truth. If you choose a computer specifically to play a game you then select a computer that can play that game well. If you don't do it its YOUR fail. If he selected his computer to play at Classic, then he didn't fail. Considering Premium hadn't even been thought of at the time, and SM3 didn't even exist, I find it hard to see how I could have choosen differently. It was, at the time, much more powerful than most desktop PC's. The guy is a troll, ignore him. I remember when Premium was being talked about being worried, and then reassured when CCP stated they would continue to support Classic. Now they have a tight deadline, and need to drop something to meet it. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Koyama Ise Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2009.01.17 13:29:00 - [1072] Originally by: Mitram The premium gfx that is currently available is only of used by people with high-end systems. used or use? Regardless not true when premium came out I ran it on my 6600GT 128MB GDDR 3 AGP 8x which at the the time was not a high end system card. Originally by: Mitram - Actually when do you see the prettier ship gfx? - When can you zoom in so close that you see it? When can you zoom in so close that you see it and concentrate on this new good art work? - How long will you be impressed by the new good art work? If you do what I do now I can't remember the performance on my old box but when you do mission zoomed closer in and when you're docked. And people can be docked for ages. And I still look at the ships and go, "That looks pretty cool." Originally by: Mitram As long as there is no significant fps drop with the new gfx then go ahead. But I see a general big fps drop with premium gfx of about 30% - 50%. Assuming they do the "Premium Lite" which they should drop both the "Premium" and the "Lite" and call it a Scaleable client. It should run faster than premium by alot. Based on experience with SM2/3 in SC:CT Originally by: Mitram Maybe an option to disable the shaders completely should be tested. I figure this may not be hard though I'm not entirely sure about the Shader Model architecture so I may be incorrect. Originally by: Mitram In a fleet battle no one will concentrate on the gfx. Everone will zoom out so that he gets a good overview. The problem will be stations because they are so huge that by zooming out you would end up seeing the whole station. Depends what type of fleet. If you're in a slow PoS shoot and they're aren't reinforcements yet you may be moderately zoomed in but in a big fleet fight yest. Also on smaller fleet fights or ganks you may be zoomed in. Originally by: Mitram Maybe you could build into the gfx-engine (and the sfx-engine) that if the fps drops too much and the game would become unplayable it automatically drops gfx/sfx features. Maybe you could build a more customizable LOD (maybe also for sfx) then just the LOD flag thats currently available. It should be possible to drop many features and even to skip some parts of the ship models. Would be nice yes. Though I believe if you give the people too much control over the client it may be hard to know what to set what at. Originally by: Mitram I strongly suggest that your development team anyway test the EVE client performance on 3 years old main-stream PC's in common situations (like missions, mining, PVE) to be prepared for our angry feedback. I'll get my 6 year old machine that has a 6600GT (added about 2 years later I believe) and run premium on it into missions anyday... well may except for a marauder since the 10 targets won't fit onto the reso of 1280x1024 and not with the shadows on or HDR because that's more resource intensive. Though I do agree with the people saying that the issue is timing, they should have given more warning not necessarily delay the process but warn us earlier. P.S. When can I gets the new Nosferatu effect? I wants it. --- Trolling a forum near you. Originally by: rValdez5987 I dont like your sig. It fills me with rage. I want it removed. Reported.
Raymond Moons	Posted - 2009.01.17 15:03:00 - [1073] It seems alot of people are complaining about the lack of warning, that CCP didn't give enough notice on the withdrawal of the classic client. It seems unreasonable to expect CCP to maintain two clients indefinately and it was good of them to continue the classic version for as long as they have done. I think the introduction of Premium last year was a good indication of the future minimum hardware requirements, so this has hardly come out of the blue. It's convenient right now that so many of us can use old machines to play EVE (and we should be gratefull) but the future of EVE isn't going to be for very long if CCP doesn't relentlessly pursue ultra high end graphics and try to attract new subscribers by staying at the cutting edge of the MMOG community. Personally I still use the classic graphics because of instability in Premium with multiple clients running, however I would much rather see a more configurable premium client version, then continue to use the classic that has been around for many years now. What I would really like to see is a single client that can support multiple logins (using multiple clients is one reason why premium doesn't really cut it for many people with ageing hardware). The fact that older graphics cards will soon be unable to play EVE is just a fact that people will have to get over, go buy a new pc or laptop or upgrade whatever you need to upgrade to continue to play. If game development stopped because you couldn't be bothered/ afford new hardware well then I guess we'd still all be playing Space Invaders! So if you love EVE and you use old gear on a standard client it's time to catch up with last year and get ready for the future. You know it'll be worth it! Off topic - For those of us who have real lives a web based skill changing section in the 'My Character' section or the ability to stack skills, or even to train all skills within a particular certificate now they've been introduced, would be much appreciated!
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.17 15:24:00 - [1074] Originally by: Una D Graphics sells ** to idiots (consolers, wowers and similar low intelligence life). EVE sells due to it being an unique game. If shiny is only thing you have than it's game over.** So very true!! If good graphics is the only reason to play Eve, then Eve is dead. It is the GAMEPLAY which counts ffs!!! I care a sh!t about graphics, most Eve players do, they play Eve because of its overwhelming great gameplay! But yeah ... if you want to become mainstream and catch in tons of n00bs who then graphics is the way and gameplay becomes unimportant. By the way, when will we have micro-transactions in Eve? Tons of more money to earn there CCP and it is almost mainstream already also.
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.17 15:32:00 - [1075] What was wrong with space invaders ?? I TOTALLY played THAT on my zx spectrum rubber key,my zx spectrum 48k+ my zx spectrum 3 and both my Amiga`s all of which i still have ! And they work -- now try saying that about a 24 yr old pc. Getting back to that steam survey ,some of you should check it out , i did at the suggestion of others in this forum and it goes like this :- DX 10 capable hardware on either Vista or XP roughly 49% so i guess that`s the ones telling everyone to upgrade 29% EITHER sm 3.0 on Dx9 or sm2b on dx9 7% (roughly) TOTALLY sm2 on dx9 14% Dx8 capable hardware only (sm1.0 ??) Now that means (depending on how the sm2b and sm3.0 % are split) somewhere between 21% and 50% will be affected by this and thats if you ignore those of us who don`t think TECH JUNKIES make up the majority of EVE players.
Black Phlanx Caldari Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2009.01.17 16:03:00 - [1076] Edited by: Black Phlanx on 17/01/2009 16:15:51 Originally by: Etren Stokk Originally by: Marcus Arelios Edited by: Marcus Arelios on 14/01/2009 17:57:35 On a side note after reading more of the posts If you can't afford to spend 50-90 USD on a new video card, maybe you should reconsider spending 15 a month on a game, because if $50 is a problem, then a monthly cost for something you don't really need seems stupid. Also, for those complaining about the economy, if a ton of people went out to spend money on new video cards, it might help some, can't hurt. Every little bit helps. And on a similar point as originally made, if the economy affects you so much that $50 is a problem, then 15 a month should be as well.* My point, exactly! I said the same thing back on page 15 and got yelled at by a ed off laptop user because he couldn't just go out and upgrade his card for less than $40. Well duh, I'm well aware that you cannot update a laptop, I'm not tech ignorant, otherwise I'd still be buying a Dell and not hand building my PC's. But he should have known that that fact was a gigantic red flag when he bought the thing in the first place. I mean c'mon people, this crap happens and not just with CCP. Hell look at the ** Microsoft pulls every year or so, need I say more. I know it's not a welcome change for most, but seriously, I think CCP is trying to grab more users by showing the game is current, I don't know many ppl that would be interested in paying a sub for a title with 6 yr old graphics, do you? I love EVE, honestly when I came onboard just under a year ago I was veyr skeptical about getting back into a Pay-2-Play game after I left Planetside, but once I started to figure things out, I got myself into an awsome corp and have since then bought a second 20in widescreen and a second account and spend on average of about 30-40 hours a week on EVE in addition to holding down a fulltime job AND writing new ambient tracks that my corpies and I listen to while playing. Finally, for those people going on and on about how you might lose your job because the eco is so bad etc, well how about you worry about working while at work instead of giving your boss a reason to fire you because you're playing around on EVE while on the clock... no, I guess that would require common sense.
Joleana	Posted - 2009.01.17 17:07:00 - [1077] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Una D Graphics sells ** to idiots (consolers, wowers and similar low intelligence life). EVE sells due to it being an unique game. If shiny is only thing you have than it's game over.** So very true!! If good graphics is the only reason to play Eve, then Eve is dead. It is the GAMEPLAY which counts ffs!!! I care a sh!t about graphics, most Eve players do, they play Eve because of its overwhelming great gameplay! But yeah ... if you want to become mainstream and catch in tons of n00bs who then graphics is the way and gameplay becomes unimportant. Content isn't the issue here. Graphics has little relevance on content so I don't see what your point is. The content and gameplay in EVE isn't going to suffer because CCP upgrades the graphics. You can argue all day that EVE players don't care about the graphics but I bet when you and everybody else started out they looked at the graphics as a benchmark for how good the game was likely to be. It is important to remain current and bring in new players because CCP needs revenue to continue delivering EVE, and the players that have been around for a year or more or probably now buying game time with their easy Isk!
Shea Klant	Posted - 2009.01.17 17:17:00 - [1078] Originally by: Mik kyo Originally by: Shea Klant I don't think it's to much for CCP to ask for people to have what is considered to be a very minimal amount of hardware. Shader model 3 cards are not a minimal amount of hardware, its basically saying you need a new pc to play eve. I don't think the main reason people play eve is to look at pretty graphics so what is the point in phasing out shader model 2, other than making people leave the game. Considering SM3 came out over 4 years ago and first saw the light of day in APG cards, I'd say that's pretty minimal. Obviously not too many people have kept up or watched the dev videos on youtube. The whole point to get people to upgrade is to get people into video cards that have programable GPU's, once they do that then most of the game can be run in the GPU rather than the CPU. GPUs are on the order of 30-100x faster than the best CPU out today. Eye candy or not all those neat little options that everyone wants, from interactive mining, enviromental effects, real scanning, NPC AI, fleet formations, etc, is going to require something more than a six year old computer with a 128mb video card.
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.17 17:30:00 - [1079] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 17/01/2009 13:26:56 Originally by: Sky Marshal Originally by: Polinus Nope its the simple truth. If you choose a computer specifically to play a game you then select a computer that can play that game well. If you don't do it its YOUR fail. If he selected his computer to play at Classic, then he didn't fail. Considering Premium hadn't even been thought of at the time, and SM3 didn't even exist, I find it hard to see how I could have choosen differently. It was, at the time, much more powerful than most desktop PC's. The guy is a troll, ignore him. I remember when Premium was being talked about being worried, and then reassured when CCP stated they would continue to support Classic. Now they have a tight deadline, and need to drop something to meet it. If you bought your PC BEFORE premium was announced then i retract what I wrote. But that means your system is very old and needs an upgrade anyway. SM3 was released almost 5 years ago. Granted not on notebooks, so you can say around 3.5-4 years old notebook. It is old and at the SM3 change will be VERY old. A game developer must keep a game usable for not HIGH end machines, but cannot have the luxury to get stuck with VERY old systems. Its evolution fault (maybe you should talk to a certain corp in your alliance about this:P)
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.17 17:33:00 - [1080] Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: Polinus Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: Polinus Well then you were not very smart on your choosing. If you had choosen a laptop to play eve you would have choosen one with SM3 already because of premium. You were not smart and now trying to blame others for it. man your so stupid it hurts Nope its the simple truth. If you choose a computer specifically to play a game you then select a computer that can play that game well. If you don't do it its YOUR fail. I bought a machine to play even when premium was announced and specified as SM3. I wanted to play eve so I selected a SM3 capable machine. And as I already posted earlier I really doubt many eve players earn much less money than I do (or pay 80% import taxes as I do) so the "it was too expensive"card doe snot FIT! if you had botherd to actually read his posts before you started posting crap you would have noticed that he bought the pc before there ever was any premium graphics in eve imagine that, some of us actually played this game quite a few years before they updated the graphics So its time to change sorry but its reality then your machine IS too old to be a gamer. Face it. Some of us use our time to work hard save some money so we can have a GOOD pc to play games with GOOD graphics quality that we should expect from a high level company like CCP. I agree that the official warnign came TOO close to the date, but its far from unreasonable as the proposition itself goes, it should just have been warned like 3-4 months ago.

Atrus Gunrunner	Posted - 2009.01.17 17:43:00 - [1081] To summarise: Part 1 = Win Part 2 = Wait a year/maintain sm 2.0 support. Or develop a way for us to change skills and chat minimally. I have a netbook which i use for the latter, don't take that away from me! But what are all you morons doing with such ****ty old rigs? I guess only FPS people like me know anything about hardware...
Milla Jovo	Posted - 2009.01.17 17:46:00 - [1082] my main pc has sm4, I just bought a video card for it. but the reason for more than 1 account is that i can run my hauler on an old system that i have, (and my kids). But if my P3 1000 will not run eve after 60 days, well there goes my alt account (hauling account). I can aford 2 video cards for me and my son, but not a mother board upgrade. I started my third account after they started the classic client less than 6 months ago. CCP said they would heep it for people that do not have high end systems. BYE BYE third account.
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.17 17:57:00 - [1083] I really think the DOCKED client with minimal requierments is such a BASIC and NEEDED idea that its impossible CCP never tought of it. They just very likely has some dumb concept that some impossible bad effect would happen if this was implemented (like their peak subscribers online number droped) But CCP must face they NEED this and its NOT complicated stuff. At least a client for iphone and Android cell phones as well. Come on the first decade of this century is almost over and some companies are still thinking is 2001.
Zenologic Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.17 18:01:00 - [1084] why do people keep saying "we"? "we don't want shiny graphics, we want game play..blah blah blah". I want the best graphics possible. i want to play a complex game that makes you think and calculate, and i want it to look awesome at the same time. wanting great graphics does not mean you are dumb. playing three eve clients all day long on an assortment of ancient hardware is, well, another story. it really doesn't matter because its the same story over and over. ccp makes a change to the game and hoards of whiners flock en masse to the forum to say how they're going to have to quit eve now because eve is going to be ruined. too shiny, too dull, too powerful, too weak,... I say keep up the good work CCP.
Torothanax	Posted - 2009.01.17 18:21:00 - [1085] Just make sure you keep GeForce 5 supported for a while. The company I bought my computer from ****ed me over and sold me a MB without an agp slot, even though they assured me it had one. I'm stuck with pci (not express) for another year or two.
Sakura Johanson	Posted - 2009.01.17 18:57:00 - [1086] Seems like this is a win-win sit. We win a better quality game and we win a dev team that can stomp out bugs faster. One upgrade in 10 years is not much...
Asekudar	Posted - 2009.01.17 19:10:00 - [1087] Yes, I want new gfx because I have a high end PC! BUT, I also want a shader 2 client or the "docked" client to change skills. The reason for this is, that i play at home with my desktop PC and when i¦m not at home i use my netbook to change skills or do similar things. I think that a lot of other people do it like that.
Alt altski	Posted - 2009.01.17 19:21:00 - [1088] Meh no more eve for me.
Dionisius Gallente Vagabundos	Posted - 2009.01.17 20:06:00 - [1089] This is good stuff indeed, my new rig will handle the clients quite well, and having only 1 client to maintain will hopefully aid the Dev's work. And you can use a stripped version too... sweet. Good one , i hope you deliver on this one actually. _____________________________________
Shevek Anarres	Posted - 2009.01.17 20:08:00 - [1090] My laptop is only 1 year old and it has a low-end ati radeon mobility, that supports shadermodel 2. So for the next expansion I'm fine. But if the expansion after that requires shader model 3 i would probably be leaving the game, at least for a while. I don't plan on buying a desktop pc, don't game on my pc in the office, and my next laptop is going to be SMALL.. optimized for travel rather than gaming.

Trovax Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.17 20:09:00 - [1091] Cool..... I'll be able to run EVE on a retro PC. Ill go break into the local Museum and rob a Atari ST or summin. What i'd much prefer to see is 64 Bit eve client. I have a custom built PC sitting with dual-dual core x64 amd's, 4 gig RAM and 2 x 7600 512mb's SLi'd just itching to have a good burn. I initially had and old p3 when i started playing eve some 3 years ago and built a new machine that was actually designed with eve in mind. Dont get me wrong... what is being proposed is awesome. A few peeps i know really want to use premium but cant cos their machines cant handle it. So its all good. As far as i'm aware, the servers went 64 Bit, and im not sure if that means the clients are also. Been out fo the loop for a few months and not been keeping up with forums so may have missed it. Thanks for watching o/ "I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant"
Ken Storm	Posted - 2009.01.17 22:11:00 - [1092] Do Not Drop SM2 support - many players use laptops and these machines tend to have lower spec graphics cards than desktops, nor are they upgradeable. Making EVE SM3+ might only effect 5% of users but you can probably say that 5% represent 50% or more of laptop users. Dont force us to spend many 100's of Dollars/Euros/GBPs to buy a new laptop. Thanks.
Dors Venabily	Posted - 2009.01.17 22:15:00 - [1093] Originally by: Sakura Johanson Seems like this is a win-win sit. We win a better quality game and we win a dev team that can stomp out bugs faster. One upgrade in 10 years is not much... This all of you ppl that cant do one miserable upgrade in a what 6 years of the game being out should quit now. I am realy not interested in any of your whining you have a full year to get ready you can put a computer together that will play this for what ? $400 and you have YEAR most likely you can go even cheaper if you canibalise som parts from you old pc so wtf. One idea that got my attention is a mini docked only version that will let you chat work the market and change skills for mobile devices is a great idea on iphone class devices. This doesnt need any graphics at all and i think is good idea for the mobile change skill situation.
Doublewhopper	Posted - 2009.01.17 22:36:00 - [1094] Edited by: Doublewhopper on 17/01/2009 22:36:25 Originally by: Dors Venabily Originally by: Sakura Johanson Seems like this is a win-win sit. We win a better quality game and we win a dev team that can stomp out bugs faster. One upgrade in 10 years is not much... This all of you ppl that cant do one miserable upgrade in a what 6 years of the game being out should quit now. I am realy not interested in any of your whining you have a full year to get ready you can put a computer together that will play this for what ? $400 and you have YEAR most likely you can go even cheaper if you canibalise som parts from you old pc so wtf. Let me whine a bit about you....specifically that you are too poor to afford multiple accounts....since it seems you have to idea about that concept...
SheriffFruitfly Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:55:00 - [1095] I still think: 1) ccp should open up the api to allow others to dev clients for it, and 2) there should be an all text client.
Spc One	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:16:00 - [1096] Edited by: Spc One on 18/01/2009 00:20:53 It is ok to go to PS 3.0 but not to 4.0. I think there are alot of people who will use Windows XP for very very long and since XP has a support of max 3.0 i wouldn't suggest to go for PS 4.0. I will not be switching to vista or windows 7 at any cost - not even for eve in the future if support goes for 4.0/4.1. I think that for notebooks PS2.0 is the standard and it will stay that way for very long but for desktops PS3.0 is ok as long as it is not PS4.0. All of my desktops support PS 3.0 (DX 9.0c) except the notebook which supports PS 2.0 max.
Leon Singhali	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:16:00 - [1097] Apologies if this has been mentioned before but im not about to read through 37 pages of people whining, and then people whining at the people who are whining just to find the occasional posts which are worth reading. Anyway I'm sure that one of the big things with shaders is that you can have different shaders run depending on the graphics hardware being used so theoretically CCP could just keep the SM2.0 shaders there and just ignore them then they will be used by the client if only SM2.0 is supported. Though that said I'm not sure of the details on how the client handles graphics and I'm sure CCP will of already considered this, just figured id give my 2 cents. Also figured id mention that if CCP did remove SM2.0 support that for my Xmas holidays this year (2009) I wont be able to log on to eve at all (am a student with no money to spend on upgrading laptop, and I cant take my PC home with me over Xmas.)
Zero kill	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:21:00 - [1098] I hope it will still work with my ASUS eee pc 901...
AonChilo The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.18 02:42:00 - [1099] I see it as inconvenient timing. With RL economy down, people are not going to be anxious to spend money on new hardware. For me in particular, I am waiting for Windows 7 to release. With that around the corner, its more important to me to make upgrade decisions based on that versus just meeting requirements to run Eve.
cesar medina The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.18 04:29:00 - [1100] Edited by: cesar medina on 18/01/2009 04:35:34 I been thinking of getting a new laptop for a while this time a gaming one would this video card work ? NVIDIA GeForce 9800M GTS w/1GB video ram I hope it has shader 3 or what ever I will need to run eve later on I don't want to get one that I cant use later on with any new expanson's

Ariel Acterus	Posted - 2009.01.18 04:52:00 - [1101] I'm amazed at how selfish some people are - "My setup's fine, so screw the rest of you". Great. Good luck with that attitude when you reach puberty. I'm not poor. I'm quite well off. I have a big TV (Eve Classic looks great on it running through my Mac Mini). I have an Xbox 360, Wii and PS3. I have an up to date PC and a Macbook (both of which run Eve fine, and will continue to do so). The PS3 and Xbox are 'hi-def' machines - they take advantage of the latest tech. It didn't stop me playing either console a few months ago on a 14" standard def tv when the LCD gave up the ghost (painful though it was, it was bearable!-Just!). I actually work on an MMO. I understand better than most that having two sets of art assets can be expensive. However, on my game, keeping the entry requirements low is a top priority, so the graphics aren't amazing but more people can actually play our game. Keeping people with lower tech in mind can therefore be beneficial. If I had to upgrade just to play EVE, even being able to afford it, I wouldn't. I have plenty of other entertainment options that I don't need to upgrade for. Is CCP seriously willing to gamble on losing a big chunk of revenue for this change?
Anyata Soren	Posted - 2009.01.18 05:10:00 - [1102] Sweet baby jesus for the love of god please preserve at least shader 2.0 for an extended period of time. As much as I would like too it is just impractical to rip the Intel chipset out of my laptop and wire in a GTX 280.
Dors Venabily	Posted - 2009.01.18 06:19:00 - [1103] Originally by: Doublewhopper Edited by: Doublewhopper on 17/01/2009 22:36:25 Originally by: Dors Venabily Originally by: Sakura Johanson Seems like this is a win-win sit. We win a better quality game and we win a dev team that can stomp out bugs faster. One upgrade in 10 years is not much... This all of you ppl that cant do one miserable upgrade in a what 6 years of the game being out should quit now. I am realy not interested in any of your whining you have a full year to get ready you can put a computer together that will play this for what ? $400 and you have YEAR most likely you can go even cheaper if you canibalise som parts from you old pc so wtf. Let me whine a bit about you....specifically that you are too poor to afford multiple accounts....since it seems you have to idea about that concept... I have 3 accounts. So whats your point? How long pls tell me how long you expect them to support outdated hardware? Can you name any other game with exception of Anarchy online that has such low minimum requirements? Folks might ,and I say might, have point with postponing the shader 2 till march next year but other then that you really have nothing to be upset about. Take it or leave it ccp has been catering to the slow computers too much imho and ppl got spoiled. I really do not think it is an unressonable request it gives you enough time to upgrade and if you dont like it dont let the door hit you on your way out.
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.18 06:54:00 - [1104] Originally by: Dors Venabily Can you name any other game with exception of Anarchy online that has such low minimum requirements? WoW?
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2009.01.18 07:08:00 - [1105] Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 18/01/2009 07:13:33 I play multiple accounts on multiple computers. That's the way I play. One of those is a fairly new Dell XPS 1530 lap top. It should be fine. The other two systems I use - are older. They are running Windows 2000 and using ATI 9800 and 9600 AIW cards. These systems run one instance of EVE Classic fine and two in full screen mode fairly well but run two instances windowed very poorly (one of them has two monitors). They use AGP cards and I'm not all that sure I'll be able to get video card upgrades for them that will match the requirements. Maybe ... maybe not. There are way to many posts in this thread for me to even think about reading them all so I've no idea what's been said up to now. One thing though - EVE has been marketed as a game for people to play with multiple accounts. I would imagine that there may well be a number of people such as myself, who while they have ONE high end machine are playing some of their alternate accounts on older equipment. Obsolescing a good bit of that equipment might just make it impractical for some people to make good use of the number of accounts they have acquired. Even if your computer will support more than one client ... it's difficult to play them if you have to alt-tab between them all the time. Thus, past a certain point, it becomes impractical to run more than two accounts per system ... depending on what you're doing. So - what you guys are doing here - is taking something (maintaining two clients) which at the moment is YOUR problem and making it OUR problem (upgrading our hardware). Very few people care to have someone elses problems made their own. If my old systems are still able to run EVE ... then I probably won't care. At the point in time where I have to upgrade these systems or not be able to play the game the way I've set myself up to do it ... then I will care. Whether or not I care to continue to play this game after getting ****ed off at having to spend a bunch of my money to solve your problems ... we'll just have to see. Also, from what I've read - while it looks like my old systems may support the first iteration of your changes - it does NOT look like they will support the next. I could always go back and play Planetside with my nephews. That (for however long it has left) still runs just fine on my old systems. Of course - I worked in the computer industry and have played OL games long enough to know that you guys don't give a rat's ass about creating problems for me. If you can dump your problems on your customers and get away with it - I'm sure and certain that is exactly what you are going to do. What I don't know - is how many of your other customers are going to care. Of course - the thing is ... none of us are going to know just how bad all this is going to be until you actually do it - at which time it will be to late. Once you actually do it - then we will see just how well our old systems run the game and how accurate your estimation is of the number of people who will have to upgrade - as well as how many of them do upgrade - just so they can continue to play this game. What I do know now - is that the Classic Client runs just fine on two thirds of my machines. So right now - it isn't broken. We'll just have to see whether you break it, trying to fix it. Oh yeah ... and ... don't think we are stupid enough to think that you really care that all of us using the Classic Client can't see the best graphics. What you care about - is making your dual production process problem our hardware upgrade problem. That is what this is ALL about. For those who are ignorant of the software development processes referred to - CCP wants to simplify it so they can make greater profits (they aren't losing money now) off the same number of customers by cutting down on their expenses.
Auk Monnan Minmatar Hidden Industrial Group Independent Faction	Posted - 2009.01.18 07:58:00 - [1106] Its the economy, stupid. I have been putting off buying a new computer for a long time. I don't see that changing anytime soon. I don't need no $1000 game.
Koyama Ise Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2009.01.18 08:21:00 - [1107] Originally by: cesar medina Edited by: cesar medina on 18/01/2009 04:35:34 I been thinking of getting a new laptop for a while this time a gaming one would this video card work ? NVIDIA GeForce 9800M GTS w/1GB video ram I hope it has shader 3 or what ever I will need to run eve later on I don't want to get one that I cant use later on with any new expanson's Dude... you run that with DX 10 you have Shader Model 4 with DX9 you have Shader Model 3. You'd be concerened about losing support for EVE if it was a Geforce FX series (equivilent to 5) and you wouldn't be able to play if you have a 4 series Geforce card. For the 4 number cards in GeForce I believe mainly the first number is the series so you have a 9 series a 6600GT is a 6 series the 7600GT is 7 series. The GTX 280 is special and the number scheme changed... that's I believe the "200" series... maybe wait until we get the "300" series on that one... bad joke. --- Trolling a forum near you. Originally by: rValdez5987 I dont like your sig. It fills me with rage. I want it removed. Reported.
Ulviirala Vauryndar Gallente Cohortes Stellaris ParadoXon Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.18 08:34:00 - [1108] Is it too much effort to have it support to work with 1/1.1 Shaders? I read the blog and understand the problems. As of yet I can't afford new hardware until May and even then I have to wait for the annual bills. I'd like it to look awesome but its just not possible atm and its perfectly fine with me, I like it the way it looks on my machine, true love ;) Coming back from a break and using the 5-days free activation offer today but I'm not extending gametime by 60d, I guess. Since the Premium Lite client wouldn't run without being able to support Shaders 2.0 or above (radeon 9100 chipset on AGP card). Unfortunately, your signature is not 22239 bytes, it exceeds the 24000 byte limit allowed on the forums. -Darth Patches I fail, regards to Cortes - Ulvi
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.18 09:32:00 - [1109] I agree with Toshiro Greyhawk who writes his points very well,this is not a single ,off the shelf standalone game. It`s something we pay for again and again, there are supposed to be 285,000 subscribers. 285k x $15 x 12months (and that`s the minimum subscription with my payment method i pay TWICE that). Your CLASSIC dev team must have an incredible wage. SHAME a lot of your customers don`t (but then THAT`s not your problem is it) Seen this in other MMO`s , the rich will keep playing the poor won`t and there will be more like this round the corner.
Checkbit	Posted - 2009.01.18 09:34:00 - [1110] I read the first few pages of this thread, and skipped a load as they were repeating the same old whines, whinges etc. IMO CCP need to do the following: 1 - Listen to what the people want. There are so many people saying that they won't be able to run eve when the expansions come, sure for a desktop pc owner it's not so much of an issue to upgrade a graphics card, it's easy enough to get agp cards that'll suit SM3 for the older pc owners, but for laptop owners they're screwed. We're not all fortunate enough to sit in front of huge monitors with high end gaming pc's. I've got a machine that'll run the premium and 1 that won't, I can't say I'm fussed about fancy graphics(I started my gaming on a BBC Model B playing Elite) so I run classic on both, to me gameplay is far more important than graphics. For the multi-account players this is going to be a big deal, people running older laptops to have 2nd accounts on for mining bonus etc when their main machine won't run 2 clients properly. 2) Develop a cut down client for people who want to change skills on the move with netbooks, older laptops etc. 3) Develop a skill queueing system which would help alleviate the need for number 2, it's been 'in development' for ages so why isn't it developed yet? There seems to be quite a few selfish posts 'I'm fine so stop your whining', or 'Spend some money and buy a new graphics card', I guess there'll be plenty of people who can do just that, but can't justify it with the cost of living as it is.

Tarteo Delagoan Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.18 10:01:00 - [1111] Well, my desktop PC is busted, and my backup laptop only supports shader 1.4 Gotta get a new PC fast...
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.18 10:50:00 - [1112] Originally by: Spc One Edited by: Spc One on 18/01/2009 00:20:53 It is ok to go to PS 3.0 but not to 4.0. I think there are alot of people who will use Windows XP for very very long and since XP has a support of max 3.0 i wouldn't suggest to go for PS 4.0. I will not be switching to vista or windows 7 at any cost - not even for eve in the future if support goes for 4.0/4.1. I think that for notebooks PS2.0 is the standard and it will stay that way for very long but for desktops PS3.0 is ok as long as it is not PS4.0. All of my desktops support PS 3.0 (DX 9.0c) except the notebook which supports PS 2.0 max. Maybe not very relevant to this topic but this is untrue. Windows XP , in fact even windows 2000 have access to PS 4.0. Just not in directX. In OpenGL you can have SM 4 shaders, doe snto matter the operating system. The limitation of DirectX10 cannot be installed in XP is purely artificial from Microsoft.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.18 10:53:00 - [1113] Originally by: AnyOldIron I agree with Toshiro Greyhawk who writes his points very well,this is not a single ,off the shelf standalone game. It`s something we pay for again and again, there are supposed to be 285,000 subscribers. 285k x $15 x 12months (and that`s the minimum subscription with my payment method i pay TWICE that). Your CLASSIC dev team must have an incredible wage. SHAME a lot of your customers don`t (but then THAT`s not your problem is it) Seen this in other MMO`s , the rich will keep playing the poor won`t and there will be more like this round the corner. in fact wages on iceland (At lest prior to crisis ) were basically the highest in the world. The DO have huge costs. And not only that, most high profile game companies have some sort of sponsoring from NVIDIA, AMD or intel for new projects. And those want games that demand more and more hardware.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.18 10:55:00 - [1114] Originally by: Ulviirala Vauryndar Is it too much effort to have it support to work with 1/1.1 Shaders? I read the blog and understand the problems. As of yet I can't afford new hardware until May and even then I have to wait for the annual bills. I'd like it to look awesome but its just not possible atm and its perfectly fine with me, I like it the way it looks on my machine, true love ;) Coming back from a break and using the 5-days free activation offer today but I'm not extending gametime by 60d, I guess. Since the Premium Lite client wouldn't run without being able to support Shaders 2.0 or above (radeon 9100 chipset on AGP card). due to fact that ccp decided to use Direct X, yes it is. Direct X doe snot support anymore SM 1.X. You can only make 1.X class shaders with openGL currently, or downgrade the DirectX SDK (Then you loose the SM3 support)
Axel Vindislaga	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:15:00 - [1115] Originally by: Zenologic why do people keep saying "we"? "we don't want shiny graphics, we want game play..blah blah blah". I want the best graphics possible. i want to play a complex game that makes you think and calculate, and i want it to look awesome at the same time. wanting great graphics does not mean you are dumb. playing three eve clients all day long on an assortment of ancient hardware is, well, another story. it really doesn't matter because its the same story over and over. ccp makes a change to the game and hoards of whiners flock en masse to the forum to say how they're going to have to quit eve now because eve is going to be ruined. too shiny, too dull, too powerful, too weak,... I say keep up the good work CCP. Too bloody right mate...
Locus Renolds	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:15:00 - [1116] I have only just subscribed (for 6 months) to EVE Online and my video card only supports shader model 1.4 (it's a ATI 9200SE). I know the card is old but if I knew EVE was going to phase out support for that shader model I would not have subscribed. I do not object to the updating of the graphics etc but I would like more notice that what has been proposed (and as far as I can tell it has not even been confirmed yet). If shader 1.4 was to be phased out in 6 months time then I could at least have ample notice to either end my subscription at that time or get some money together for some PC upgrades.
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:26:00 - [1117] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: AnyOldIron I agree with Toshiro Greyhawk who writes his points very well,this is not a single ,off the shelf standalone game. It`s something we pay for again and again, there are supposed to be 285,000 subscribers. 285k x $15 x 12months (and that`s the minimum subscription with my payment method i pay TWICE that). Your CLASSIC dev team must have an incredible wage. SHAME a lot of your customers don`t (but then THAT`s not your problem is it) Seen this in other MMO`s , the rich will keep playing the poor won`t and there will be more like this round the corner. in fact wages on iceland (At lest prior to crisis ) were basically the highest in the world. The DO have huge costs. And not only that, most high profile game companies have some sort of sponsoring from NVIDIA, AMD or intel for new projects. And those want games that demand more and more hardware.
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:27:00 - [1118] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: AnyOldIron I agree with Toshiro Greyhawk who writes his points very well,this is not a single ,off the shelf standalone game. It`s something we pay for again and again, there are supposed to be 285,000 subscribers. 285k x $15 x 12months (and that`s the minimum subscription with my payment method i pay TWICE that). Your CLASSIC dev team must have an incredible wage. SHAME a lot of your customers don`t (but then THAT`s not your problem is it) Seen this in other MMO`s , the rich will keep playing the poor won`t and there will be more like this round the corner. in fact wages on iceland (At lest prior to crisis ) were basically the highest in the world. The DO have huge costs. And not only that, most high profile game companies have some sort of sponsoring from NVIDIA, AMD or intel for new projects. And those want games that demand more and more hardware. I will try again it seems my messages are being intercepted and edited or there is a bug in this forum
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:36:00 - [1119] You make excellent points Kaguro, but i`ve been in this business 26 yrs, 12 of that in systems development. The hardware companies sponsor software development to push Hardware sales faster and faster, leading to the situation we have today. Where any hardware you buy (pc or mobile phone,etc) is virtually OBSOLETE the day you buy it, other industries may be able to withstand that sort of pressure (Fashion comes to mind). In this industry that Breakneck speed is not sustainable for long, most of you don`t need twice the cpu ,Ram etc for your needs , you need it to run your operating system`s latest insanity. I set up a vista machine the other day for a customer, just sitting at the desktop it used 70% of 1 core and 60% of RAM is that sane ?? considering that at it`s purest an operating system is only there so YOU can run YOUR software. By the way the customer told me to put it back to XP.
Nutsy Squirrel Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.18 17:06:00 - [1120] Originally by: Polinus I really think the DOCKED client with minimal requierments is such a BASIC and NEEDED idea that its impossible CCP never tought of it. I saw this question a few times in the first few pages of this thread, but since it is still being asked, I am under the impression it has not been answered. - Click ESC - Click Display and Graphics tab - Uncheck Load Station Environment in the Misc section of the center column. This will make the station a static background image.

hauntingappiriton	Posted - 2009.01.18 17:53:00 - [1121] well one i dont like premium graphics on eve i dont like the view of it while some do thats ok but for the pure fact i do run dual clients on one machine and that has nothign to do with the reason i dont like the premium grpahics but it does make me wonder if i can or will still be able to run my dual clients as i do on my one machine cause ill just sell my toons and be done with eve im a little sick of the eve rambos who come to this game cause there lives suck in rl and talk crap not only that voice chat is worse =) have a nice day btw yes it is a game and not your life i am tired of hearing you got divorced over eve online go ^&& your wives da&
Rock'n'Roll Lady	Posted - 2009.01.18 18:23:00 - [1122] 1. Go to http://www.eve-online.com/ 2. Go to My Accounts page 3. Click on Cancel Subscription and then press the button, now you are free
Trent Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.18 18:35:00 - [1123] It is entirely possible to play Eve using only the menus and overview - granted fleet combat combat and missions would be tough. For those who want to use laptops to change skills and perhaps do some hauling or trading, how about an option to turn the 3Dgfx completely off? I imagine someone has suggested this already but I don't feel like reading 37 pages.
Ken LEEEEEEE Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.18 18:40:00 - [1124] nice , I pay the gtc to play eve and now I have to pay to upgrade my pc to play eve ...AWESOME GAME !
Hanntaa	Posted - 2009.01.18 19:02:00 - [1125] hey guys like i said previously my laptop has just broken and being a student i need a new one asap, but i clearly want to be able to play eve on it with the final sm3.0 changes happening. i was looking around on some websites for computers ranging in price and came across these, which from what i can tell will work fine with sm3.0 Processor Type: Intel Core 2 Duo T6400 processor Processor speed: 2.0GHz, 800 MHz, 2MB Cache Memory Size: 3 GB MB Hard Drive Capacity: 250 GB Graphics Card Type: ATi Mobility Radeon HD3470 -------------------------------------------------------- OR Processor Type:Intel Core 2 Duo P7350 Processor speed:2.00 GHz Memory Size:2 GB MB Memory Type:DDR2 RAM Hard Drive Capacity:250 GB Graphics Card Type:nVidia GeForce 9200M GS any help or advice would be really appreciated,im basicly looking for a laptop around ú600 that will enable me to play eve for at least a couple of years.
Erim Solfara Amarr House of Solfara	Posted - 2009.01.18 20:25:00 - [1126] Every blog I read with a significant change discussed in it just leads me more and more to the opinion that CCP has finally turned into the corporate monster that all game development companies finally do. I mean, 'Premium Lite'?! COME ON, give it a name that doesn't reek of trying to stay as non-descript and on the fence as possible in order to keep the majority of your playerbase happy. I'm seeing adverts for EVE everywhere I go on the internet now, it's ridiculous, and offers being thrown at my inbox because of an account I had subscribed for 2 months some years ago, seems to me like they're getting desperate. I have an older machine, built several years ago and upgraded and maintained since. I'm a loyal eve player, hell I would have to be to still be here after all these changes I haven't liked, and have been playing since June 2006. I currently run an Athlon 2500 32 bit single core processor, a gig of ram, and an X800GTO. My graphics card is not the bottleneck in my system, it makes no sense for me to upgrade it when it's the rest of the system that is in desperate need of some financial injections. As a university student, who spends what little money he has free after his uni expenses and eve subscription on his bike, which is also in an increasingly aged state, I can't afford to upgrade my pc for quite some time, if SM2 goes out the window, I'm gone.
CyberGh0st Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.18 21:32:00 - [1127] Originally by: Hanntaa hey guys like i said previously my laptop has just broken and being a student i need a new one asap, but i clearly want to be able to play eve on it with the final sm3.0 changes happening. i was looking around on some websites for computers ranging in price and came across these, which from what i can tell will work fine with sm3.0 Processor Type: Intel Core 2 Duo T6400 processor Processor speed: 2.0GHz, 800 MHz, 2MB Cache Memory Size: 3 GB MB Hard Drive Capacity: 250 GB Graphics Card Type: ATi Mobility Radeon HD3470 -------------------------------------------------------- OR Processor Type:Intel Core 2 Duo P7350 Processor speed:2.00 GHz Memory Size:2 GB MB Memory Type:DDR2 RAM Hard Drive Capacity:250 GB Graphics Card Type:nVidia GeForce 9200M GS any help or advice would be really appreciated,im basicly looking for a laptop around ú600 that will enable me to play eve for at least a couple of years. Definatly this one : Processor Type: Intel Core 2 Duo T6400 processor Processor speed: 2.0GHz, 800 MHz, 2MB Cache Memory Size: 3 GB MB Hard Drive Capacity: 250 GB Graphics Card Type: ATi Mobility Radeon HD3470 This graphics card is alot better then the nvidia one, however compared to desktop cards, it is only as good as an Nvidia 6600GT or ATI X800GT, in terms of performance. It does have DirectX 10.1 support, but trust me, you don't wanna run DX10 games on that :p However the EVE Online premium client ( with SM3.0 ) will run ok on this card. So if you are looking for a budget laptop to run EVE Online Premium, then the ATi Mobility Radeon HD3470 will do, just don't expect awesome performance. The 9200M GS will be too slow imho, altho technically it can run DX10 ...
ShR3DeR	Posted - 2009.01.18 21:42:00 - [1128] lol ok my system specs are.... amd 3200xp 32-bit 2gigs ddr400.. a agp bfg7800gs graphics card the rig is 6ish years old and i run 2 accounts same time back to back on new eve graphics with shaders off no problems and 70ish fps granted in fleets its lower but very do-able premium lite will be better than this so for those agp systems out there those 7800's r cheap these days laptops well this is why i dont buy them for gaming ...
Zarthax Mandatori Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.18 21:43:00 - [1129] Now, im one of those odd people, running EvE on a Laptop. System: OS: Win XP Pro (5.1, Build 2699) Processor: Intel Pentium M 1.70 GHz Mem: 2048 RAM Direct-X 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904) GFX Card: ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 DAC-Type: Internal DAC(400MHz) Mem: 128 Mb Direct Draw: Active Direct 3D: Active ACC: Active Will this system be able to run the next patch as smooth as it runs the current standart client ?
Antaiir Gallente Eat My Shorts Inc. Freelancer Coalition	Posted - 2009.01.18 22:59:00 - [1130] CCP want to force us to buy new hardware, to spin up the economy? Great idea. I prefer some more bugfixes instead of just another new buggy client. 2 of my 3 accounts running on pc's that are not compatible to the premium client. 2 accounts that i am paying for. So i have to spend money, that i do not have, for new hardware, just to be able to use, and pay for, those 2 accounts in the future?!?

Sarah Mitchell	Posted - 2009.01.18 23:10:00 - [1131] <heavy sigh> Well, you guys are certainly very generous with the big, steaming bags of s.h.i.t you keep handing out to us. Thanks a lot.
Barasu Minmatar Buttered On The Wrong Side	Posted - 2009.01.18 23:59:00 - [1132] Edited by: Barasu on 19/01/2009 00:02:05 When I heard about this all I could say in corp chat was... "Barasu > MOTHER **ING GOD DAMN BULL SUCKING BASTARDS THOSE CCP *S ARE I WANT MY **ING CLASSIC GRAPHICS TO STAY" amd athlon 2000+ 512 megs of ram with a Geforce 4 ti... Good bye eve!
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.19 00:00:00 - [1133] Originally by: AnyOldIron You make excellent points Kaguro, but i`ve been in this business 26 yrs, 12 of that in systems development. The hardware companies sponsor software development to push Hardware sales faster and faster, leading to the situation we have today. Where any hardware you buy (pc or mobile phone,etc) is virtually OBSOLETE the day you buy it, other industries may be able to withstand that sort of pressure (Fashion comes to mind). In this industry that Breakneck speed is not sustainable for long, most of you don`t need twice the cpu ,Ram etc for your needs , you need it to run your operating system`s latest insanity. I set up a vista machine the other day for a customer, just sitting at the desktop it used 70% of 1 core and 60% of RAM is that sane ?? considering that at it`s purest an operating system is only there so YOU can run YOUR software. By the way the customer told me to put it back to XP. I worked for 3 years in Game development industry (now changed to medical image 3d stuff). And was not only once that we faced pressures to raise the minimum requirements or support a feature that NEEDs a newest tech card. That is specially true out of the MMO industry. Why? because the normal games face heavy problems with piracy. But if they can strike a deal with a hardware manufacturer, that makes the hardware manufacture pay for large part of the game development, in exchange of making the game a "you are force to buy the new cards of the moment", they will do it. That because hardware cannot be pirated, so you just push your sales from software to hardware in fact and get a more guaranteed return for both parts. I really don't know how long this vertiginous push into new and newer techs can go, but i bet its will beat quite a few more years at least. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.01.19 00:02:00 - [1134] Originally by: Zarthax Mandatori Now, im one of those odd people, running EvE on a Laptop. System: OS: Win XP Pro (5.1, Build 2699) Processor: Intel Pentium M 1.70 GHz Mem: 2048 RAM Direct-X 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904) GFX Card: ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 DAC-Type: Internal DAC(400MHz) Mem: 128 Mb Direct Draw: Active Direct 3D: Active ACC: Active Will this system be able to run the next patch as smooth as it runs the current standart client ? if your resolution is not extremely high, then yes. That I am speaking in a supposition that CCP wil do a good SM2 implementation on the new client. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Ariel Acterus	Posted - 2009.01.19 01:13:00 - [1135] Originally by: Kagura Nikon I worked for 3 years in Game development industry (now changed to medical image 3d stuff). And was not only once that we faced pressures to raise the minimum requirements or support a feature that NEEDs a newest tech card. That is specially true out of the MMO industry. Why? because the normal games face heavy problems with piracy. But if they can strike a deal with a hardware manufacturer, that makes the hardware manufacture pay for large part of the game development, in exchange of making the game a "you are force to buy the new cards of the moment", they will do it. That because hardware cannot be pirated, so you just push your sales from software to hardware in fact and get a more guaranteed return for both parts. I really don't know how long this vertiginous push into new and newer techs can go, but i bet its will beat quite a few more years at least. Sorry, I don't think I quite understood what you said there :( Are you saying that piracy will push MMOs to doing hardware deals that will push up the specs? Because, as far as I know, an MMO sitting on your hard drive (legitimately bought or downloaded illegally) is useless without a valid account. If anything, MMOs are pretty much pirate proof, no? Can you clarify your point please? Cheers!
barvo The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.19 01:34:00 - [1136] I have a desktop and laptop which both (luckily for me) support premium with SM3. However, the laptop (with GeForce Go 7600) is not happy running two classic clients; if I've got both of them doing session changes (dock/undock hauler alt when mining, or hauler alt running in the background) one of the sessions ends up with the space background just being flat white. I've not tried premium on the laptop yet, this story will prompt me to do so later today. However, what you have to realise is that for every 100 subscribers who are no longer able to play due to the change in support of graphics cards, probably only the 10 most die hard will upgrade to keep playing. The rest will go 'bummer, can't play eve anymore :( ' but you cannot expect to be able to force them to upgrade. Therefore ... Originally by: Kaya Divine My subscription plan will last up to April. After March because of graphic card which will not support Premium Lite I will not be able to play. For those which subscriptions are even longer, and because of change of minimum requirements I hope that CCP will offer reimbursements. This is a necessity. And I'm saying this knowing full well that I will be OK come december.
zombu2 Caldari legion of qui Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.01.19 02:32:00 - [1137] as formerly stated ati is not the hardware you want to run your games on right at this time since drivers for ati/amd are a mess and do not work right we had a lot of discussions on whats better but as for my opinion use nvidia (less problems better hardware) also ever tried to rma something with ati it s pure insanity what you have to do to get your stuff back after you send it in as for the hardware for a laptop any amd dual core or intel will do just make sure you ask the sales person what shader model it supports
ElMo's Ghost Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2009.01.19 05:21:00 - [1138] I dual account with one account on my laptop and one on my desktop. My laptop won't support the new graphics, and the framerate really takes a dive when I run both accounts on my desktop. I won't be upgrading my computer to run a second account, so I will probably move my chars onto one account and cancel one subscription. I really hope these changes don't go through.
Halycon Gamma Caldari The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.19 05:23:00 - [1139] Originally by: zombu2 as formerly stated ati is not the hardware you want to run your games on right at this time since drivers for ati/amd are a mess and do not work right we had a lot of discussions on whats better but as for my opinion use nvidia (less problems better hardware) also ever tried to rma something with ati it s pure insanity what you have to do to get your stuff back after you send it in as for the hardware for a laptop any amd dual core or intel will do just make sure you ask the sales person what shader model it supports First off.. you don't ever RMA with ATI. You do it with the card manufacturer.. ATI makes the chips. Other companies buy the chips from ATI, put them on a card, and sell them to us. Its not AMD/ATI's fault if the manufacturer you bought the card off of has a crappy RMA system. Second.. no. ATI has done a wonderful job of redoing their catalyst drivers lately. A year ago, two years ago, what you are saying was very true. After a brand spanking new product is released.. what you say is true.. but after a month or so goes by. Things work pretty dang well. And you really can't say Nvidia is any better, they have driver problems on release as well for a month or so after. I'd actually say that ATI and Nvidia are pretty close to parity in drivers support right now. Unless you are talking linux support.. and then thats just an odd argument all the way around considering the two companies vastly different takes on how to support the linux community... Nvidia wins some there, ATI wins some there.. and neither of them have enough support in that market to really call it "good" one way or the other. Lastly... look at any graphics card comparisons lately? ATI is currently at the top of their game. They are the clear winner in price/performance right now. And until the GTX295 came out last week.. they had the best card in town. And personally, its about time. I'm not an ATI fanboy, but Nvidia had been the clear winner for too long. Cards were hitting ludicrous prices. Now, with some sort of competition in the market, prices are much more reasonable. And to me, thats a win for everyone. We can only hope that somehow AMD's CPU division can do something similar sometime soon, because prices for Intel's chips have been insane ever since the C2D came out(for the higher end parts). I'd like to see prices on those skus fall as well because someone else actually has something that can put out similar, or better, numbers; instead of Intel just charging whatever they want because they're the only game in town.
Borun Tal Minmatar Virtual Rock Industries	Posted - 2009.01.19 06:11:00 - [1140] Any chance the problems introduced with QR will be fixed in the new release? And no, I haven't gone through 38 pages of posts...

Malrock Caldari Mea Culpa Enigma Nexus-Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.19 07:00:00 - [1141] Edited by: Malrock on 19/01/2009 07:00:21 Asside of all that complaining id like to know when SM4 will be supported and when we gonna have 64 bit client? (not to mention proper vista/windows 7 support) Also is there plans to integrate PysX support ? Give us a visit.
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.19 07:36:00 - [1142] You may have been right KAGURA NIKON if it wasn`t for this :- Sunnyvale (CA) - AMD announced today it will cut 1100 jobs and trim salaries in an attempt to "navigate the turbulent economic conditions." AMD will release its financial data on January 22, 2009 at 5:00pm EST. Hector Ruiz and Dirk Meyer will both have their base pay reduced by 20%, according to AMD. Additional Canada and US employees will receive pay cuts ranging from 5% for "overtime eligible" workers to 15% for vice presidents. AMD's operations outside of North America will offer "voluntary pay measures consistent with local policies and regulations." AMD will also suspend matching contributions to worker retirement plans in both Canada and the US. AMD wrote in their release: "As a result of the continuing global economic downturn, we have determined that we need to take difficult, but prudent, actions designed to reduce our costs." Intel, AMD's chief competitor, recently announced an 88% reduction in net profits down to $234 million, and a significant reduction in quarterly revenue - down to $8.3 billion. Intel also posted internal guidance for Q1'2009 which estimates quarterly revenue in the low $7-billion range - though are refusing to state such a forecast publicly in official filings. That figure is only for internal guidance, according to Intel.
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.19 07:47:00 - [1143] and this :- It appears that the biggest corporations of today are all working together, using the economic model developed by John Forbes Nash, the Nobel Laureate whose theory was the subject of the recent popular movie called A Beautiful Mind (with Russell Crowe). His model basically states that a system of multiple entities working together for each other's mutual benefit (by ignoring the "big fish" and going for more "lesser fish), results in a sum total of greater success than were each entity looking out only for its own success (by going after those "big fish" alone). And to put it even more simply, it means "there's economic strength in numbers." Such a system may allow corporations to survive, be stronger cash players, increase profits for those involved while continuing to appear outwardly as being innovative when, in fact, they are all playing their little roles in a well-thought-out, planned, global ecology that stifles innovation in favor of equality. It ultimately creates the type of R&D, manufacturing and distribution chain as we see today - and it's one that's wholly damaging to the regular people. Consumer's needs are no longer the targets of huge corporations. They don't care if we have the best, worst or something in the middle - and they surely aren't looking to give us WOW! products. Their only interests are efforts designed to keep their cash cows mooing - by releasing what they feel we'll buy, and by doing so at a speed which operates within their planned product releases.
Odhinn Vinlandii Incurable Insanity Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.01.19 08:54:00 - [1144] Originally by: CCP Zulupark It's good to see that people are giving constructive feedback. The biggest concerns appear to be with the SM3 change, especially in regards to laptops. Please keep commenting, we're reading this thread and gathering info and data to see what concerns you have. The only way for us to make and revise plans about these sorts of things is by having an open and honest discussion with the players and that seems to be working fine :-) I am a poor student and single father of two boys. My laptop only has dual Mobility Radeaon HD 3870 in CrossfireX config. I don't see how some of these more well off guys could possibly upgrade.
Petrik L Gallente FeHo Lonely Miners UnLimited	Posted - 2009.01.19 09:30:00 - [1145] Edited by: Petrik L on 19/01/2009 09:29:55 I have at my worksplace a premium ready PC, but I use the Classic client, becouse I have <20 FPS with the premium client.... 1* 2,8GHz P4D S775 2* 1GB RAM 1* ATI Radeon HD 2400Pro AGP
Rsorh Nalozigur	Posted - 2009.01.19 10:38:00 - [1146] Edited by: Rsorh Nalozigur on 19/01/2009 10:38:45 Well i think the main problem for us "Customers" is that with this change for many of us the experience will get worse instead of getting better. Quote: We know this will affect some players out there. What we don't know is exactly how many. This will not affect "some" players but this will affect most of the players and the reason for that you can read below. Quote: We estimate that about 95% of all subscribers currently have hardware that is SM2 compatible. We further predict that in q4 this year over 97% of subscribers will have SM3 capable hardware. This means that an estimate of anywhere from 3%-5% of current subscribers would have to update their computers or graphics cards to be able to continue playing. CCP should make a assessment of how many people that actually play using Premium client who already have systems capable of playing with Premium i.e. SM3 capable hardware. My hardware is capable of running Premium client but i get so less FPS in it that it is best not to run premium client but classic client, and i am sure many people use Classic clients for similar reasons. Premium client has too many shortcomings compared to classic client. Why they are phasing out classic client in name of premium client i can't understand. Classic client does everything with good performance but the catchy graphics things but i and many others are not here for that "shiny catchy things" in eve, we are here for the game play that EVE offers. If i have to go after good graphics in games then i can go to many other games out there which already have very nice graphics. CCP has been talking about useless crap for years like the ambulation for e.g., but this news of phasing out of classic engine was passed on just 2 months before, what about people that are subscribing to CCP for 6 months and 12 months period and not capable of enjoying the same EVE with the premium client or even worse not able to play it at all? One more thing is CCP always encourage people to use multiple accounts, even gives out special offers for having multiple accounts, and now with this change? now people have to use all their different systems to be able to utilize multiple accounts? and some people will have such type of systems which can't be upgraded properly so what do they do? purchase new ones? The timing of this change is utter idiotic, while there is recession everywhere, and people are trying to cut their expenses CCP is forcing them to expend more, may be they have reasons to do it as is clear by many posts and their own blog that they want to reduce their maintainability costs, but at the expanse of the player base, seriously? I have witnessed serious flaws in CCP's customer interaction teams, they don't come and answer their customer's questions and worries instead they only pop in once and while to answer their fanboi's. For me i have three accounts, or better i had three accounts. One is canceled already, one got 1 month left and another sadly has got 5 months left and it will go through the changes and then see if its possible to play then. All while writing this, i knew that CCP are not going to budge a millimeter from their proposed changes as they never have. They should change the Eve Information portal name as "EVE Notice Board" because it just serves as a notice board and whatever notices they give never change and get implemented as such. Good bye and Good luck with whatever you guys do. One more thing can someone from CCP will care to explain what is the meaning of 40+ pages threads as people don't generally go through all these pages and whatever new threads about these changes are made on other forums are closed and they are told to say their voices in these gigantic threads, is this helpful? if yes then press "Y" else Press "Ctrl + F4"
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.19 10:57:00 - [1147] For all those who say "Upgrade or Die" and "Stop being Cheapskates" I give you these quotes :- Santa Clara (CA) - DigiTimes is reporting that Intel will delay its upcoming Lynnfield CPU and P55 chipset until the end of August or beginning of September, and possibly later, based on market conditions in the slowing global economy. and this :- Santa Clara (CA) - DigiTimes is reporting that Intel will delay making the switchover to DDR3-exclusive products until sometime in 2010. This news comes just two days after learning Asustek and Gigabyte are reportedly sitting on top of a $320 million inventory of unsold DDR2-based 4-series chipsets - stating they hoped Intel would delay the DDR3-exclusive 5-series chipsets to give them time to clear out their existing inventory. Intel is scheduled to release its 5-series DDR3-based chipset in September, 2009, but the full switch will not take place until 2010 - due to the weakened global economy, a lack of falling DDR3 prices, and lower-than-expected demand for Core i7 on x58. In addition, AMD is reportedly struggling with its own DDR3-related issues. DigiTimes cites technical difficulties and an inability to achieve stability with the integrated DDR3 memory controller in Socket AM3-based CPUs. According to DigiTimes' sources, AMD will likely not make the transition to DDR3 until they are "able to come out with a workable BIOS." Doesn`t have a direct bearing on sm2.0 or 3.0 but "Upgrade or Die" $320 million dollars of OLD stock interesting or NOT ??
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.19 11:46:00 - [1148] Quote: Why? because the normal games face heavy problems with piracy. But if they can strike a deal with a hardware manufacturer, that makes the hardware manufacture pay for large part of the game development, in exchange of making the game a "you are force to buy the new cards of the moment", they will do it. That because hardware cannot be pirated, so you just push your sales from software to hardware in fact and get a more guaranteed return for both parts. I am so going to sue those evil pirates copying EvE clients, uniquely dongle protected and encrypted 1 by 1. Almost compiled customer per customer. Quote: Doesn`t have a direct bearing on sm2.0 or 3.0 but "Upgrade or Die" $320 million dollars of OLD stock interesting or NOT ?? Could still try reuse that old stock making some stacks to resell for rigs at Jita IMHO.
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.19 12:01:00 - [1149] To be fair to Kagura Nikon , TWICE she has been misquoted. She specifically said OUTSIDE the mmo industry piracy was a problem and that`s where the sponsorship first started. srry Kagura if you were going to answer that yourself but i like FAIR and HONEST debate, like CCP zulupark claims he wants.
Erim Solfara Amarr House of Solfara	Posted - 2009.01.19 12:08:00 - [1150] CCP need a steam style hardware survey, even if it's based on this website and totally optional. Post up a page somewhere where we can input our current hardware specs, on multiple machines (even if's just a resubmit on the form), and comments on how much we could upgrade, radio buttons from 1 (never afford it) to 5 (I just bought a ú4000 pc, what you talkin' 'bout foo'?).

Moon Childe	Posted - 2009.01.19 12:28:00 - [1151] look we know that the WIS update will be "graphicly intensive" so im guessing that this is one of the reasons for the push in Client tech. for the record it's vital that they get the WIS sorted properly because just round the corner there are 3 new space MMO's comming into the fray 2 of them are based on well known IP's...... now i know i hurts now to upgrade (let's face it a lot of us are struggling to live let alone play eve) but in the end if we want to keep playing eve we will have to upgrade hardware. i feel for CCP because looking at how it stands there stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. either way they loose subs.
AnyOldIron	Posted - 2009.01.19 12:34:00 - [1152] Very well said Moon Childe, even though I am arguing in the opposite camp. The realities you point out are indeed the real point of this. I just don`t want to play without corpies or friends , but those are the sad facts of life , if we can`t afford it we should not play.
God Johnson	Posted - 2009.01.19 12:34:00 - [1153] It says 3-5% will have to upgrade their computer when you drop SM2 support. When I play at work, its the company's computer. I can't just ask for an upgrade for EVE, as much as I'd like to.
Starnap	Posted - 2009.01.19 13:06:00 - [1154] Using ATI 9800 here - won't support shader 3 it seems... Sucks.
Kira Laren	Posted - 2009.01.19 13:10:00 - [1155] I don't know if it was suggested already or not, but the whole debate would be unnecessary if CCP would allow skill changing and market (maybe chat) access through a web page, or a software like EVEMon. IT would be possible to do administrative work on older machines, an play on newer ones. I'm sure the majority of people would be satisfied with this.
Busabus	Posted - 2009.01.19 15:44:00 - [1156] I like the idea of streamlining the clients, but I can't see it as an option when the premium version doesn't even work yet! I've got (in my opinion) a high spec PC, but it can't run 2 premium clients because the frame rates drop to single figures and it repeatedly bombs out. Therefore I still run the classic version. I also use a laptop to log in and do some tasks and I'm not spending thousands to upgrade that to shader 3.
Raknor Amarr Ghost Data	Posted - 2009.01.19 15:45:00 - [1157] The move to SM 2.0 support I can understand as I finally wont be able to play Eve on the machine I started to in 2003. SM 2.0 hardware is gotten to be common. It's the move to SM 3.0 support that has be a bit worried. I've got the low end of the SM 3.0 hardware and am unsure due to economic considerations if I will be able to upgrade it and still keep playing Eve by the end of 2009. Option one is to give us a Test Applet that renders a loop of video using the most basic settings in a SM 3.0 only engine. That we can test machines and the number of clients your normally run months before the game actually makes the move. Soon the better on this option. Option two has been asked for for quite a while to have a client that let's people check Eve but not necessarily play Eve. Often my second client is simply open to check market in another region or as a giant chat window that doesn't clutter up the window I'm actually playing on. But there were getting back to supporting yet another client. Option three and it's the most simple is to hold of on the SM 3.0 upgrade tell the at least the summer patch of 2010. Yes I know it means the Dev's can't push Eve to be as stunning as they want it to be but that would mean that I would only have cut back my drinking from good beer to OK beer in that time to come up with the $ to pay for the upgrade. With a 2009 release I would have to cut back to ****ty beer.
Cosmac	Posted - 2009.01.19 15:55:00 - [1158] Discontinuing support for ShaderModel 2 will prevent me from using my laptop (using Intel GMA 950) to play EVE.
Morlok Muktai	Posted - 2009.01.19 16:08:00 - [1159] Edited by: Morlok Muktai on 19/01/2009 16:11:18 Edited by: Morlok Muktai on 19/01/2009 16:10:50 Desktop running a Radeon X800xt AGP = OK Desktop running a Radeon X1950 AGP = OK Dusty laptop running crappy on board graphics = OK Asus e901 running Intel GMA950 under XP = OK Move off Shader 2 and I'm stuffed on all but my desktop.. best I set long skills for the many days I travel :( Can we keep shader 2 for a while longer?
Mr Sokitumi	Posted - 2009.01.19 16:39:00 - [1160] Fixes would happen faster so i like that...and i run into people with low grade pc`s all the time but their running 2 -4 accounts and spent all their pc upgrade $ on accounts , i say they can take a month off and upgradeand heres my beef on the eve game i want to pull into the station pick a planet factionised mission if i want and be shuttled to (or) beemed Heeheeehee Skotty , to the planet and run a first person shooter mission like call o duty search and destroy mission for them late nights to wake up a little , maybe set it up so if ya click to go to yer planet miss yer redirected to a dif server for ground based miss....then we cant take all the mature players from World o Warcraft lololol i have friends that are waiting for able to leave ship then theyl come back to eve , i wont leave but im waiting...Kill Da Wabbit Arrrr May The Solar Winds Fill ye Sails

Mr Sokitumi	Posted - 2009.01.19 16:57:00 - [1161] Sorry forgot my main point ummm i have a asus gaming board w/3.g dualcore processor 2 gigs of ram and a 8800 gts 640mb card and i got to lower my premiem graphix selections some , so id like to know why this nasa pc cant run premiem maxed , and man i feel sorry for so many peeps when this change happends.....wth do i need to upgrade to a terabite graphix card now ... thatll be pricy 2g graphix cards here i come...well after i install 2 more gig stix if that dont cut it what will???????????
Lilinane	Posted - 2009.01.19 16:59:00 - [1162] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Gerome Doutrande Are you also considering laptops when looking a sm 2/3 support? What would be the implications for those when going to sm 2 and especially sm 3? (Imagine a generic remark about laptops selling better than "proper PCs" here.) We are in fact considering laptops, most new onboard Intel cards support SM2 or SM3 (the GMA series as per here) This is a true statement, i run two client on my Hp laptop when i am traveling and i travel a lot due to work. I would say that the performance is not the best but they both run on premium (SM3) with not much problem. As a matter of fact i have PvP running two client on my laptop and have kill my opponent. I do believe that is a good deal the changes that Devs are working on. Not only ensure the nice looking of new eden but also ensuring performing is maintain.

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2009.01.19 17:32:00 - [1163] As we have a new blog on the subject, please read it and then post your feedback to it in this forum thread.



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