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War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:30:00 - [961] Originally by: rubico1337 nothing inherently bad with POSs, im all for it if they are small and controlled by small corps that dont try to OWN the space, the challenge is letting there be POSes AND making sure any alliance cant lock down several systems. its a balancing act. No that's not a balancing act. That's mutualy exclusive conditions.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:30:00 - [962] Edited by: Clansworth on 28/01/2009 11:33:38 Originally by: Red 7 Originally by: Clansworth Originally by: Red 7 What's the current thinking about the average number of wormholes that will be available at any point in time (found or yet to be discovered) from K-Space to W-Space? Somewhere a little less that 2500 probably? there are 2500 W-Space systems, most of which will have a K-Space link most of the time. Some will have none, but instead contain a W-W link, some will contain 2 k-space links, or a K and a W-W.. Still seems it will average out to around 2500... The more "lucrative" areas of W-Space will have rare links to K-Space. For the zone to be interesting I would imagine - what 10% would fit this bill? Which brings us down to 2250 systems. I can't imagine that all those W-Space systems will have W-K links. Otherwise it just ends up as a zone where pirates will hang out to gank anybody without needing to worry about tanking the guns. It would also mean that every other K-System would have a K-W WH. i realize that there will be some that have a tendacy towards NOT linking to K-Space. However, they also stated that it will not be an uncommon occurance for systems to have multiple links to K-Space, thus allowing links from one side of K-space to another. This is why i said it'd still probably tend towards 2500. EDIT: More importantly, Red 7, didn't you die? System Influence
Trebor Daehdoow Gallente LEAP Corp Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:36:00 - [963] Originally by: Ahro Thariori Why is it, that in everyones thought process only the defenders can game the WH mechanics - and the attackers cant? You want a sizeable BS fleet in that WH space? Just rapidly cycle the Whs. Well, apart from the fact that cycling the wormholes will require you to have effective "air superiority" in the system for a long enough period to get groups of BS's to the new mouths and into the system, and apart from the fact that this will require characters (admittedly, alts, but they could be used for other things) to loaf around in the contested system for significant periods of time - possibly weeks - while the reinforcements are being brought in, there is the minor issue that the defenders will be able to bring in reinforcements in covops (even a tiny wormhole will do!) and jump into locally-manufactured dreadnaughts and carriers. So what will happen is that the owners of the POS's will put a dread or two on display in each POS, at which point any scout will report back, "By your command, Imperious Leader, we're frakked", and the system will remain unmolested. World Domination - It's fun for the entire family! EViE - The iPhone / iPod Touch Skill Training Monitor
Grigo M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:39:00 - [964] i have a question. wen you "jump" to a wormhole sistem will u be moved at the other location of the wormhole entery(just as gates) or randomly in the sistem(example clonejumpin to a rogural). also are wormholes 2 ways(if the mass/time permits) RO Originally by: Avernus ...some kudos to using your main to post like an asshat though... doesn't really take balls though, you're on the internet.
Koibito Caldari n0thing Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:41:00 - [965] thanks to ccp awesomeness and my fancy reading my meal went this awesome. xD
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:45:00 - [966] Originally by: Clansworth Originally by: Exus Question : How will works the security status hits while killing rats in the belts in wormland ? No word yet on WHO the rats will be. If they are of the existing pirate factions (unlikely), then I would expect similar security status affects. If they are unknowns, with little/no CONCORD relations, I would expect little/no sec status effects. Who says the angels can't use wormholes?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:50:00 - [967] I really think it's a bad idea to be able to deploy POSs in w-space. If POS are able to be deployed, the end game will be massive POSs sitting on every high value target in all of w-space, regardless of how hard they are to maintain. I think that w-space should be an area of maximum fluidity that is impossible to 'settle', where the greatest permanence players can expect to have is a carrier or Orca/Rorqual for a home away from home. If POSs aren't allowed then it will be much harder for large alliances to exploit their numbers and erect hardened footholds in w-space. I think there will be a massive flood of scout alts as soon as the patch goes live, mapping as far into w-space as they can get on suicide runs in a mad dash to secure as many assets as possible. A lot of experimental exploration will be going on on SISI to get as much knowledge as possible about the w-space environment and it's workings before assaulting the real thing on TQ. Defenders in w-space will have a huge advantage. Pre-positioned ships and supplies will be a major benefit while attackers will have to slowly trickle resources and manpower into the systems. Attacking/defending systems that are even one level of depth greater than a k-w link (i.e. a system that is linked only by w-w links, with a k-w link to the next known space) will be an order of magnitude more difficult to attack/defend. With the links randomly generated, I'm really wondering how the systems will be layered with respect to how much 'true security' each system has, and how deep into w-space it is (number of consecutive w-w links you have to go through to find it). Will we end up with a list of tiered systems? Tier 1 meaning they're 'surface' w-space systems, with links commonly attached to known space, tier 2 w-space systems are commonly attached to tier 1 w-space systems and so on. Reaching a tier 5 system would mean having to penetrate randomly created links to five levels. I don't even want to think about the odds of being able to consistently navigate in/out of a system like that. You really could get infinitely lost for all intents and purposes. With only two accounts- six characters- a single person has plenty of resources to very effectively establish a permanent presence in w-space with a POS, alts left to watch it with very little SP, and plenty of scouts to poke around and see where all the new wormholes go. When you run the numbers out to their end conclusion w-space isn't as scary as it first appears. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:00:00 - [968] Originally by: Ahro Thariori Why is it, that in everyones thought process only the defenders can game the WH mechanics - and the attackers cant? You want a sizeable BS fleet in that WH space? Just rapidly cycle the Whs. Aysmetrical. The defenders only have to get one or two ships in and out to sell and resupply. The attackers have to get how many BSes in to take out a POS? High sec WH won't have enough mass to move a capital so that means at most 4 BSes. Then your fleet is flying how many jumps to the next WH? How big is that one going to be? Also unless you have a cruiser, BC, and a BS as part of your crash team you run the risk of having a ship caught in K-space after the WH crash. The defenders can easilly keep 1 of each at the POS. tl;dr WH have limited mass. This effects attackers more than defenders since they need to move more mass than defenders.
Nig C	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:06:00 - [969] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I really think it's a bad idea to be able to deploy POSs in w-space. Why not, may yo wonder than, when the NPC's Cap Fleet arrive :)
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:06:00 - [970] Edited by: Red 7 on 28/01/2009 12:09:36 Edited by: Red 7 on 28/01/2009 12:07:27 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Defenders in w-space will have a huge advantage. Pre-positioned ships and supplies will be a major benefit while attackers will have to slowly trickle resources and manpower into the systems. Attacking/defending systems that are even one level of depth greater than a k-w link (i.e. a system that is linked only by w-w links, with a k-w link to the next known space) will be an order of magnitude more difficult to attack/defend. With the links randomly generated, I'm really wondering how the systems will be layered with respect to how much 'true security' each system has, and how deep into w-space it is (number of consecutive w-w links you have to go through to find it). Will we end up with a list of tiered systems? Tier 1 meaning they're 'surface' w-space systems, with links commonly attached to known space, tier 2 w-space systems are commonly attached to tier 1 w-space systems and so on. Reaching a tier 5 system would mean having to penetrate randomly created links to five levels. I don't even want to think about the odds of being able to consistently navigate in/out of a system like that. You really could get infinitely lost for all intents and purposes. This is the real crux of the issue - hence my question earlier. The shallower that W-Space is - then the more of an issue POS's will be. The deeper it is then the more interesting things become but the more needed POS's are. They've hinted that this will be a place to get lost in - which suggests that it will be deep - and also that a larger proportion of the space will have infrequent connections to K-Space. Would be nice if proportions were something like: Tier 5 - 10% of systems Tier 4 - 20% of systems Tier 3 - 30% of systems Tier 2 - 20% of systems Tier 1 - 20% of systems For Tier 1 (high frequency of W-Space to K-Space WH's) - 250 W-Space systems which would mean approx 1/10 systems in K-Space are connected excl multiple K-Space connections to the same W-Space system. But haven't they also said that the lower the sec of the K-System - the more lucrative the end-point in W-Space will be? If so this essentially means that existing 0.0 space and the alliances have richer pickings from the offing.
Kim Moore	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:20:00 - [971] Edited by: Kim Moore on 28/01/2009 12:30:36
Ahro Thariori	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:28:00 - [972] Edited by: Ahro Thariori on 28/01/2009 12:34:17 Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow So what will happen is that the owners of the POS's will put a dread or two on display in each POS, at which point any scout will report back, "By your command, Imperious Leader, we're frakked", and the system will remain unmolested. edit: numbers, numbers! Is this viable? How long stretches of 'peace' would you need to build up such defenses? Including mining for materials. Remember: you cant just do 10 freighter-runs to jita/whatever and back. ;)
Kaahles n0thing Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:41:00 - [973] Edited by: Kaahles on 28/01/2009 12:57:40 Originally by: Koibito thanks to ccp awesomeness and my fancy reading my meal went this awesome. xD mimimimimimi Bu seriously ccp. Great work the probably most awsome stuff i've ever read about. I espeacilly like the idea of the possibility to get stuck. Unexplored deep space is cold an dangerous (even more than 0.0) so YAY. Hope the details about the new scanning system will be equally awsome ----------------------------- OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Contract me all your stuff so I can save it!
Brutal Bruno	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:51:00 - [974] still no news about when it will hit SiSi.
Herio Mortis HYDRA MANUFACTURING Corp O X I D E	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:55:00 - [975] I think defending towers will be trickier than people think. Every defender that gets podded will end up in his clone back in K-space. If the last defender gets podded they won't have an easy time finding their way back to the same system. Sure, they can camp out inside the force field, but how are they then going to grab fuel? With the defenders camped inside the tower, the attackers can close the WH and no reinforcements will be easy to do for the defending force. Do they risk sneaking out to probe down a WH for backup risk having the last pilot in system podded? Will that WH even lead somewhere that makes reinforcement possible? So for me personally I don't think POS placement will be as big an issue as some people try to make it out to be.
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.01.28 13:27:00 - [976] Edited by: Space Wanderer on 28/01/2009 13:28:27 Edited by: Space Wanderer on 28/01/2009 13:28:07 Originally by: Herio Mortis I think defending towers will be trickier than people think. Every defender that gets podded will end up in his clone back in K-space. If the last defender gets podded they won't have an easy time finding their way back to the same system. Not sure about that. The same drawbacks of defenders are applicable to attackers too. In other words, attack fleets will be cut off from their base as much as the defenders are. With the difference that the defenders are behind fortifications and lots of supplies, while attackers aren't. The condition would be the same of a sieged city where neither the siegers, nor the city can receive supplies; heavily slanted in favor of defenders. Of course there would be need for the defenders to keep a consistent fleet in the system at all times, but alts solve that problem...
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.28 13:33:00 - [977] Except that the attackers have open supply lines - whereas the defenders don't. With cynos forbidden - defenders can't drop in supplys on a whim.
Calarin Crushed Ambitions	Posted - 2009.01.28 13:39:00 - [978] Sorry if this has already been asked but I'm assuming that a 0.0 or lowsec wormhole that leads to a highsec system will automatically prevent all capitals except for jump freighters from entering. Just making sure, is this correct? Or does Chribba get more dreads to mine with? :P
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.28 13:39:00 - [979] Originally by: Herio Mortis I think defending towers will be trickier than people think. Every defender that gets podded will end up in his clone back in K-space. If the last defender gets podded they won't have an easy time finding their way back to the same system. Sure, they can camp out inside the force field, but how are they then going to grab fuel? With the defenders camped inside the tower, the attackers can close the WH and no reinforcements will be easy to do for the defending force. Do they risk sneaking out to probe down a WH for backup risk having the last pilot in system podded? Will that WH even lead somewhere that makes reinforcement possible? So for me personally I don't think POS placement will be as big an issue as some people try to make it out to be. I have to agree to that. It's not the risk of being forcefully removed that would make to pos game in there more interesting than in K-Space, but the possibility that you can be 'cut off' from your all shiny tower without any viable way to get back other than paying thru the nose to the ones locking you out to get your 'stuff out'. Let's say for example that corp A will find dyspo moon in there (or whatever others might want to take). They do the freighter run into there (well worth the risk one could assume, should they manage to sell later months worth of that material). So we will have now deathstar with small amount of moon mining and some corp hangars to keep the stuff. And 10 alts. In worst case all competent pos gunners and probers (ie not your regular out of box alts). They might have also, if they play with high bets a 6 months of pos fuel in there. Corp B finds the system and sinff the tower out in rapid order. They find that it has dysp (or whatever else they need) and now have three options (1) ignore it as 'not worth the hassle' (2) direct assault (needing at least 50 competent RR BS pilots against pos with gunners that has no defending fleet) (3) trying to 'starve them out' (needing local space superiority in system and good timezone coverage). None of the last 2 options is 'easy' but pos removal should not be 'easy' or people would do it 'just for lulz' especially if it would be easier to remove tower than to erect one. From those 3 last one is most viable. Or second one if they have the numbers assuming they are capable of moving anywhere in K-Space to get into system thru any wormhole leading to K-Space. If one of the 'defenders' sniffs out a wormhole all the 'attackers' have to do is to camp it with cloakers (assuming they manage to find it also) and then collapse it after the 'defender' goes thru to see where it leads (as the defenders would need that information to get supplies and pilots into system and valuable stuff out). Ofc defenders could try the same to the attackers, if they manage to move enough pilots into system the local space superiority will shift and the roles will be reversed. So POS in system might offer reason to actually fight (with high bets, as if you are podded you are of of there) instead of just cloaking up in SS and smacking in our belowed delayed local. It's the game of determination - do you have the will and commitment to outlast your opposition to actually 'control' the system ? Anything can be controlled with will and determination if you think the rewards are worth it. POS or no POS. Without POS the fight for 'system control' would turn into your regular alt-cloaking-in-SS kind of stuff and most of us know how fustrating that can be Ofc POS alone do not prevent that, but that POS is at least static target. You can disable the guns n stuff one by one while waiting for the local cloaker to uncloak or whatever. Assuming they do not have those 10 gunners online ofc.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 13:44:00 - [980] Originally by: Brutal Bruno still no news about when it will hit SiSi. I believe they mentioned sometime second half of february... Eve-search is for some reason 'down' right now, so I can't find the source post. Originally by: Calarin Sorry if this has already been asked but I'm assuming that a 0.0 or lowsec wormhole that leads to a highsec system will automatically prevent all capitals except for jump freighters from entering. Just making sure, is this correct? Or does Chribba get more dreads to mine with? :P Correct. W-K Wormholes that lead to highsec will have a cap on ship size making it impossible for capital ships to go through. System Influence
Green Aen	Posted - 2009.01.28 13:45:00 - [981] Originally by: Calarin Sorry if this has already been asked but I'm assuming that a 0.0 or lowsec wormhole that leads to a highsec system will automatically prevent all capitals except for jump freighters from entering. Just making sure, is this correct? Or does Chribba get more dreads to mine with? :P no they will make it like that capitals can't enter from empire, otherwhise u would see carriers there... mass allowed, u'll have to do it with orca.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:06:00 - [982] Hm, maybe we need a new kind of POS that can only be erected in a W-system. Could make balancing easier. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Zackalwe Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:09:00 - [983] Edited by: Zackalwe on 28/01/2009 14:17:04 Originally by: Ahro Thariori Originally by: Zackalwe Deathstars in W-space. With the currently planned mechanics as I understand them, I predict that within a month all the dyspro moons in all W systems will have deathstars on them. It will be a bit of a pain logistically, but a four or five man team with alts could set this up quite quickly. Closing the wormhole repeatedly until you get one close to your safe space will just make it easier. Once set up, the deathstar will be practically invincible even without gunners. No dread fleet can get to it, and battleship fleet size would be a problem. A critical mass of battleships probably isnt practical because of wormhole mechanics. Why is it, that in everyones thought process only the defenders can game the WH mechanics - and the attackers cant? You want a sizeable BS fleet in that WH space? Just rapidly cycle the Whs. We are probably talking about 80say battleships to take a fully armed POS. Assuming 5 BS per wormhole jump. Assuming it takes an hour of messing about to get a WH spawn anywhere near your space. Assuming half an hour travel time to get the next 5 BS to the new WH. Some assumptions obviously, but not too far out probably. So far thats 20 consecutive hours just to get the whole fleet into the system. Probably more like 2 days when you take into account a reasonable timezone operation. Reinforce the POS. Whole fleet needs to alarmclock to take down the POS when its out of reinforced. Which could take another 2 days where the fleet has to stay logged out in that system and not able to do anything else in the meantime. Put up your own POS. Now get the entire fleet out again, preferably in your own space so the snipe fit BS dont get ganked flying back in small groups. Probably another 2 days. A 6 day OP to take down a single POS tying up 80 battleships for the entire duration? Chances are that aint gonna happen often. Especially as losses will be high, considering it will probably be manned at some point. And the fact that the vast majority of the time will be highly tedious waiting / travelling.
cianide pro	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:17:00 - [984] Originally by: Zackalwe Edited by: Zackalwe on 28/01/2009 14:13:23 Originally by: Ahro Thariori Originally by: Zackalwe Deathstars in W-space. With the currently planned mechanics as I understand them, I predict that within a month all the dyspro moons in all W systems will have deathstars on them. It will be a bit of a pain logistically, but a four or five man team with alts could set this up quite quickly. Closing the wormhole repeatedly until you get one close to your safe space will just make it easier. Once set up, the deathstar will be practically invincible even without gunners. No dread fleet can get to it, and battleship fleet size would be a problem. A critical mass of battleships probably isnt practical because of wormhole mechanics. Why is it, that in everyones thought process only the defenders can game the WH mechanics - and the attackers cant? You want a sizeable BS fleet in that WH space? Just rapidly cycle the Whs. We are probably talking about 80say battleships to take a fully armed POS. Assuming 5 BS per wormhole jump. Assuming it takes an hour of messing about to get a WH spawn anywhere near your space. Assuming half an hour travel time to get the next 5 BS to the new WH. Some assumptions obviously, but not too far out probably. So far thats 30 hours just to get the whole fleet into the system. Reinforce the POS. Whole fleet needs to alarmclock to take down the POS when its out of reinforced. Which could take another 2 days where the fleet has to stay logged out in that system and not able to do anything else in the meantime. Put up your own POS. Now get the entire fleet out again, preferably in your own space so the snipe fit BS dont get ganked flying back in small groups. Probably another 30 hours. A 5 day OP to take down a single POS tying up 80 battleships for the entire duration? Chances are that aint gonna happen often. Especially as losses will be high, considering it will probably be manned at some point. And the fact that the vast majority of the time will be highly tedious waiting / travelling. Maybe the npc's there dont like pos's in their systems and will attack them as its their territory as we need to keep in mind we dont know anything yet about those inhabitants except they will be surprisingly different then what we are used to from npc's !!!
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:20:00 - [985] Is it possible to see a screenshot of the new probing in action? I am dying to see what it looks like and if it corresponds to what I have in my head :)
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:20:00 - [986] This is frontier space. How dare people have any ability to set up and base out of this new frontier! Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:25:00 - [987] Edited by: Red 7 on 28/01/2009 14:26:25 Originally by: Zackalwe We are probably talking about 80say battleships to take a fully armed POS. Assuming 5 BS per wormhole jump. Assuming it takes an hour of messing about to get a WH spawn anywhere near your space. Assuming half an hour travel time to get the next 5 BS to the new WH. Some assumptions obviously, but not too far out probably. So far thats 20 consecutive hours just to get the whole fleet into the system. Probably more like 2 days when you take into account a reasonable timezone operation. Reinforce the POS. Whole fleet needs to alarmclock to take down the POS when its out of reinforced. Which could take another 2 days where the fleet has to stay logged out in that system and not able to do anything else in the meantime. Put up your own POS. Now get the entire fleet out again, preferably in your own space so the snipe fit BS dont get ganked flying back in small groups. Probably another 2 days. A 6 day OP to take down a single POS tying up 80 battleships for the entire duration? Chances are that aint gonna happen often. Especially as losses will be high, considering it will probably be manned at some point. And the fact that the vast majority of the time will be highly tedious waiting / travelling. Your assumptions are a little off. If K-W space is as flat as some people suggest - then every other system (in K-Space) will be have a WH capable of reaching W-Space. 80 people in a 5 man team (5 BS per WH you mentioned) would be 16 teams. With around 1.5 hours needed based on your figures per team - then the rate of entry into the system would be defined by the number of systems you can cycle WH's in parrallel. If you can cover/control/work in 32 systems (assuming 2 systems per WH) then you can do it in 1.5 hours. Controlling safely 16 systems would take 3 hours, etc. Running sequentially wouldn't be optimal :) The harder part of course is the actual siege.
Khanto Thor Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:35:00 - [988] With 2500 systems available and Wormholes being random, its going to be days/weeks and lots of probing before you would find the system your POS is in! There are no gates between wormhole systems, you would have to find another wormhole to enter the next wormhole system. So attacking POS's would be practically impossible unless they were defenceless. There is a limit to the mass that can pass through a wormhole, if the limit was 5 battleships for the first wormhole, the limit for the next wormhole might be 2 battleships, then what! does the fleet split up! does a wormhole have to collapse before the next wormhole can be found! Every ship would need to be able to probe for wormholes as you cannot guarantee that all the ships will fit through the next wormhole found, the next wormhole may dump your battleships in the middle of Delve! who is going to take these risks with expensive ships!
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:36:00 - [989] Originally by: Red 7 Except that the attackers have open supply lines - whereas the defenders don't. With cynos forbidden - defenders can't drop in supplys on a whim. I think this point is the crux of the matter. Honestly I can't see why you make such a statement. Why do you say the attackers have an open supply line? As far as I can see the attackers have as the only supplies those they can bring through a single WH, before it collapses (assuming the defenders are not able to use covop ships to collapse it themself). On the contrary the defenders have all the supplies they have been able to sneak in periods of weeks or months.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:36:00 - [990] Originally by: An Anarchyyt This is frontier space. How dare people have any ability to set up and base out of this new frontier! I am not against the possibility of establishing bases in the new frontier per se, but I am speculating if it is such a good idea use a system that is balanced in regard to the attack/defense mechanism of k-space and directly implement them in w-space. Making a new Starbase tower with the same characteristics as a small Starbase tower, except it is the only tower that can be deployed in w-space, would be my first attempt at balancing. I would not fiddle with stats of other starbase structures only the tower. Maybe tune fuel consumption in someway too. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute

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