It's ok to just write,

"I have no responce."

It's ok.
Everyone else apparently had a hard time comming up with a logical arguement for people in NPC corps to be just as good industrialists as everyone else as well.

Everyone else seems to want to argue over arbitrary things that will have no real impact on balance or peoples desires to move to null.

ISK making isn't a problem, and things like factory slots are convenient and not a reason to come to null.


The NPC corp industrialist is THE ROOT of the problem. Until their brought in line with the rest of the game, you won't be able to balance anything.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.


Thanks for your anecdote, but in reality nobody does this. Just because you can run your people like slaves doing something mind-numbingly terrible and in the least efficient way possible doesn't mean everyone else has to do it. It's not good game design.

See there is the problem.
You have no way of knowing how many of those high-sec players are really alts of null-sec players.
I can go to null make lots of ISK to front a high-sec operation.
In fact I can even undercut other player knowing I have a secondary source of income.
How are you going to force out those players ?
Any tax with work across the board, it it will get rather complicated to implament if you want to target specific player who are doing the same thing as the masses just with better backing.

And by stopping a certain player group you are essentially forcing them to do something else ?
Call it what it is the player base refuses to change and people consider it a problem so you want to change the way they play there game so you have to force them to do something.

People produce in high-sec cause that is where people sell there items.
It is nautral ground for the null sec alliances.
It also keeps BPO's safe as players spent time and ISK to aquire and research them.

And let be honest it is very easy for a player to get goods from high-sec to null and back again.
In order to change things so null produces and sells in null.
1 - give null the production lines to implement it (improve null station)
2 - give null the market to sell items (this is practically impossible given human nature)
3 - remove easy access of goods from null to high-sec and the reverse.

Number one is easily fixed.
Number two the the lynch pin that makes everything fall apart (no real way to do this)
Number three is well a nasty thing and you boards are filled with people trying to fix it to no avail.

In some respects 3 could be fixed by making null a lot farther out then it already is.
A change in the geography of EVE could help.
What I am talking about is either increasing low-sec systems and or increasing the distance capital jump wise between high-sec and null.
If you have to jump 3 times with a capital just to get to a low-sec system on the border of high-sec, producing in null would look more attractive.

See where I am going, try not to nerf but change dynamics of the situation without having to once again tweak the mechanics

damn this threads still going? Cmon the horse is a dead, anally raped skeleton. stop.

But if people are spending their time on Hi-sec alts they would with an increased industry within Null costing them selves money.

3 is more easily fixed originally I believed in nerfing jump drives till the current situation was quite nicely shown to me where I realized the easiest way to protect what will remain of the Hi-sec markets (as they will take a drop due to the loss Null as a customer) is to increase the amount of fuel consumed by jumping as it is currently way too cheap for a jump freighter in terms of m2, personally i think an 8 fold increase in fuel consumed should protect these markets sufficiently while enabling Null to become more self sufficient.

Ah now I have your attention and perhaps you will stop talking around the subject now and get down to what you really want ?
Saying something needs a nerf doesn't really say much.

How many members of you own corp that have high-sec NPC alts that are producing in all day long with ISK that was generated from null.
Personally I can thing of very few that don't have NPC alts for high-sec production.
How do you nerf that ?
And the real question is why should you want too ?
Just as easy to create a corp that also never leaves station which some do and they are also completely ammune to high-sec war dec's.
Or I have friends who just trade the markets all day.
Now that is where the real ISK is, not in production but in resales.
Once again completely immune.

THought about fuel as well but decided against it as it would effect and alliances internal logistics.
If anything I want to boost the logistic inside an alliances borders (increase the stations abilities) why making it more difficult to get things to high-sec.
That is why I went for the lets change the distance between the systems at least for low-sec.
it would create a isolation zone and to some extent it would decrease nulls ability to bring capitals easily into low-sec.
Which has its own benefits.
And in effect this would also increase fuel cost at the same time as you will need more jumps.

As it stand right now it is way too easy to get goods to high-sec.

Is still doesn't fix the market issue however.
What null almost needs is a high-sec system with the ability to limit who enters the station.

To do that in the current mechanics would mean you would have to garrison the system.
Not something any null-sec alliance would want to do.

So we are back to square one sadly.

Actually you nerf it quite easily by making it more attractive to be in Null earing money there.
You make it more attractive to be in a player corp in hi-sec by nerfing NPC station capabilities.

You make more dangerous space a better place to be and you make player owned structures cheaper to research in and give them better refine rates than NPC structures, so while NPC corps still have their immunity to war decs they do not benefit within industry.

"why making it more difficult to get things to high-sec."
That is easy if you take away the largest customer Hi-sec has and then you leave Null with the ability to move huge amounts of goods at a cheap rate there is no way at all anyone within hi-sec can compete with the goods coming in from Null as I worked out earlier in this thread with the current fuel costs and usage if the difference between hi-sec and Nulls ability to manufacture differ by more than 1% on the side of Null, then Hi-sec cannot compete.

I am all for giving more dangerous space the ability to be self sufficient as well as the ability to make good isk, I am not however on the side of the complete destruction of Hi-sec.

Changing the distance is much the same as nerfing jump drives, I my self thought like this but frankly while it does protect the hi-sec markets to a degree it does not really make life easier for smaller alliances and at the end of the day this is about hi-secs ability to compete while opening up new paths (well repaving the old ones) to allow industry to be more meaningful in dangerous space and giving people a bonus within industry to not just sit in a risk free NPC corp.

In essence if you increase jump fuel consumed it means that those living in Null can create competitively priced goods for local markets while not being able to flood the Hi-sec market easily with cheaper than hi-sec can produce goods.

And you failed to read again.

Because High-sec doesn't NEED T2 items.
T2 items are a luxury item for high-sec.
T2 items are needed for null and null produces there T2 items in high-sec because it makes the most sense.
That really is the heart of the problem.
Any nerf you place on high-sec will hit null as well.
The 2 economies are tied together.
You can't nerf one without hitting the other.

See that is what is so interesting about the whole nerf high-sec.
To some extent it will cut null's throat.
You crash the high-sec economy and high-sec will continue as before just at a slower rate.

Null is not in that position they depend on the economy to sell items for pay for monthly expenses.
SOV is not cheap.

Although it would be an interesting way to reset null.
Cause all the alliances would go bankrupt which means they would have to implode or leave null to just survive opening up regions for others or for those that say had a huge ISK reserve set aside.
A little tinfoil for fun

Mineral supply in nullsec right now is a chicken-and-egg problem. Nobody is going to import minerals unless they have a guaranteed buyer, and no one is building anything because there are no minerals on the market. Small-time industrialists are not interested in adding more tasks for themselves, or have the free isk/characters in order to build stuff, and high-scale industrialists who already have the supply line running don't want to bother supplying relatively few minerals for smalltimers because it isn't worth their time.

The easy solution is to make mining low-ends viable to mine in nullsec, by increasing their isk/hour rate so that people strip sites clean instead of cherry picking the good stuff then moving to the next system. Mining helps to provide minerals for small scale manufacturers, miners in nullsec cannot (and should not be able to) provide enough minerals to sustain supercapital building operations or massive fleet doctrine creation schemes. That's what highsec is for.

I am not really sure what you are on about with T2, yes the price will be higher with higher shipping costs but persoanlly I would also like to see moon mining die in a bloody accident, it should be an active player activity causing bottom up funding, not top down. and available in all -0.0 space with more mineral supply than at perseent, so people who take the risk get the reward.

It is not from my perspective about nerfing Hi-sec but nerfing NPC structures and boosting player structures as well as boosting dangerous space with more mineral availability

I have to presume you mean moon minerals ?
Normal minerals are a endless supply in nullsec with SOV belts. (and no region is better then another)
However unlikely you could actually mine out all the belts and high-sec and have to wait for them to spawn.
In null this can't happen.
The only thing null lacks in endless (was going to supply but no) in the right proportions is Trit and Pyerite.

As far as the T2 market well I mention it because it is one of the prefered ways Null alliances get ISK. And as moon minerals (or any minerals for that part)are not a faucet they require an economy to actually get something out of them.

Alliances could get by on a straight faucet like Ratting but that takes a lot more work on the members part.

Yes part of this is the increase is the increase in trit and pyerite in Null, this does need to occur to help make Null more self sufficient as does the nerf to NPC structures and he buff of player owned ones.

As to moon minerals, yes I agree they are not a faucet nor do I believe that any one material should only occur in Sov space. But top down financing should not occur, a corporation should have its life blood via its members not some super afk mining taken to extremes as moon mining is.

Moon mining is the worst idea ever in this game it actually make the current war dec system look good.

If trit and pye were in null the prices would drop in hi-sec until it is more profitable to haul to null from hi-sec. The only thing you will accomplish is crashing the price.

So the 8 fold increase in the cost of hauling I mentioned would not make this an uneconomic proposal?

Crap what the hell is the price of trit 2600 a unit?

Inflicting pain and suffering and making things as inconvenient as possible is not the hallmark of an improvement in the game. Thats a bad idea.

So hold on what your saying is that Null should not be given trit and pyerite because they will flood the market but their ability to get goods to the market should not have an increased cost qas that would inflict pain and suffering, so subsequently Null should not therefore be given trit and pyerite.

Yeah ok then. The increase in costs will allow Hi-sec to have what it produces its self at a cost slightly above there current price due to the NPC facility nerf and T2 goods sold by dangerous space will just end up having the transport cost added on by the seller, hardly pain and suffering.

There is already a balance of trade in minerals. Making that go away takes away some of the interdependence between null and hi-sec.

Yes it does and it will remove Hi-secs largest customer, it will also give people who want to live out in null in an industrial capability a reason to go there without needing a 7 billion isk ship to be able to build something of substance, while with an increase in fuel consumption by jump ships will allow some protection to Hi-secs remain markets and increased POS capabilities.

The bedrock of the game should not be altered on a whim.

Materials would still be moved by jump freighter even if mined in null.

A long time ago in a EVE Galaxy blah blah blah.
THe low end market was capped via shuttle sold from NPC's.
The cap was removed by CCP and ever sense then the prices of Trit and pyerite have gone up.

Now the question is the reason behind the price rise a matter of supply not meeting demand or is it down to market maniputlation or a both.

Giving null the ability to mine vast amounts of trit and pyerite via a SOV belt would not really be a bad thing.
First it would provide a checks and balances.

If the price got too high null-sec would stop buying low ends from high-sec.
WHich would cause the prices in high-sec to drop eventually.

WOuld this stop null from selling there high-ends in high-sec.
No as there is not a big enough market in null to support the current amount being mined and lets face it greed will play a part.
And in this case that is a good thing.

I still say change that spod rock in the small sov belt to a scordite rocks and let the markets sort it out.
And go from there.

But I have always been a firm believer that null should require nothing from high-sec players.
Why, well until that happens CCP can never effectively create a deep null section of space.
Something I would love to see. another section of null way outside what we see today.
But for that to happen Null needs freedom from high-sec.
ANd the farther out you get from high-sec the more likely the players will decide another hub besides Jita needs to be created.


There are some other items but out of scope of this discussion.

There is already a balance of trade in minerals. Making that go away takes away some of the interdependence between null and hi-sec.

Ok while I believe trit and pyerite should be in as you call them Sov belts, I actually believe these minerals should be included in all normal belts.

I am not aware of the full mechanics of these sov belts, I am aware they are like grav sites in a WH but do they disappear after a few days if you do not mine them out?

...Yes it will be an alteration and yes hi-sec does need cushioning against the blow with the increase in jump fuel usage...

They are in the normal belts in most places but like high-sec they are quickly drained, just like high-sec.

The SOV belt show up as a grav site.
There are 5 different belts based on how much you mine in a system.

Once you deplete a belt you leave it and wait five minutes and another one identical to the one you just cleared will spawn again. (in a different location in the system)
If I can find the link to it I will post it here.