You forgot something very important ... with torpedoes you can choose your dmg type

weapon range : 20km seems enough for close range engagement
dmg output : on the paper, megathron is better but do only th/kin dmg. with torps you can switch to the expected lowest resist (a rni npcing guristas with a em shield resist hole as example)
low signature targets : heavy neutras + drones and the job is done

You forgot something very important ... with torpedoes you can choose your dmg type

weapon range : 20km seems enough for close range engagement
dmg output : on the paper, megathron is better but do only th/kin dmg. with torps you can switch to the expected lowest resist (a rni npcing guristas with a em shield resist hole as example)
low signature targets : heavy neutras + drones and the job is done

Blasters as of now have more range with null than torpedoes.. Torps need a bit more range.. to somethign like 25 km range.

Oh please enough with torpedos having less range than blasters its bull.... javelin torps ... also rigs to boost range if 25km odd range isn't enough. also null at the end of its falloff is doing pitiful damage.

Rigs to increase range? Ok I counter you with tracking computers that increase range and falloff. Sure falloff reduces damage a lot... but that excuse seems to not be valid to minmatar anymore, so why to gallente? No one is asking anythign absurd. Just that torpedoes have a bit more range than HAMS. 3-4 km is enough. There is no need of more explosion velocity or damage. Just a tiny bit more range...

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Or more sensibly they should nerf HAMS to actual cruiser sized range as torps have good range its has the best optimal range at battleship level there range is upto long point range beyond that you don't really need to use torps that and the raven can easily get the extra range you want.

HAMS are still inside cruiser size range. They are are effective up to 16-17 km ( travel time allows target to move etc..) That is well within pulses and AC effective range. Hams otherwise would be too hard to use outside caldari ships

Torpedoes have no range degradation but have base degradation due to speed of target. They do not nee to have same range as mega pulses, no one wants that.

I cannot see why ANYONE would think 24 km range torps would be anywhere overpowered.

You're not looking at the javelins are you? 24km on cruiser weapons is very strong compare it to scorch.. barrage... null
only scorch compare well but lasers are meant to have the strongest range as a tradeoff for crazy cap usage where is the tradeoff for missiles?
16-17km on high damage ammo is battleship level look at conflag.. hail..void on battleships.... now you might get it.
look at cruiser high damage ammo .. void...LOL range... conflag....hail.... see the difference

"Seems" does not work. just log into duality and fight an armor hurricane with typhoon, fight the armor hurricane with megathron, and then fight the megathron with typhoon, then you can draw a conclusion.

Hey guys

I'm not ignoring anything, I promise. I think many of the last few posts are kind of extreme, but I also agree that the Tempest potentially falls short considering the rest of the changes in this pass. For now, I don't want to make a change. I'd rather wait a little longer (hopefully for sisi testing) to get the best overall sense possible, then make some adjustments. Part of the reason for not committing to something now is that it may be that other ships (like the Hyperion) need adjustments as well (if its too strong) and so I want to wait until we feel we've got the best sense possible for the entire class before we make final changes.

We'll keep looking at the Tempest though, and if it does end up feeling too weak, we'll make a change.

Typhoon:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire
5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo launcher explosion velocity

Slot layout: 7H, 5M, 7L; 5 turrets, 5 launchers (-1)
Fittings: 12500 PWG, 640 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 6000 / 6000
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400 / 1087s / 4.97
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 / .11 / 103600000 / 15.8
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 (+25) / 200 (+100)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 115 / 7
Sensor strength: 19 Ladar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 330

I can imagine fitting the Typhoon proposed above something like this

[Typhoon, Typhoon]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener
True Sansha Armor Kinetic Hardener
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

100MN Microwarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Target Painter II
Target Painter II

Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Hobgoblin II x10
Ogre II x6

The torp launchers put out 826 dps at max skills, the unbonused autos would put out an extra 111 dps, then unbonused heavy drones an additional 317.

This way the Typhoon still can fully utilise all 3 weapon systems, including a decently sized drone bay, and does not simply become and armoured Raven.

Looks quite fun to fit and fly, and still maintains a good use for all 3 weapons systems if required. That is pretty cookie cutter though, I'm sure the ship engineers could come up with something much better.

(hopefully for sisi testing)

Also, nothing to dramatic on the Tempest please from my point of view. I think it is looking good at the moment. Perhaps the bonuses could be looked at and a few tweaks to the attributes but I wouldn't want to see a slot layout change personally.

...

I didn't noticed your last typhoon kill was a with a suicide smartbomb fit in July 2011 ... we are not playing the same game, sorry.

As concluson, i will engage and win of course.

I think the Tempest could use some more tweaking, there are a number directions that CCP could take if they chose to do so. And I am not going to pretend to know the best one to take. I can only state my personal desires on the matter. In truth that all any of us can do. I just want the Tempest to be a competitive projectile armed battleship that can armor tank. If that can be done with out changing it's slot lay out then all the better. But if it turns out that CCP believes that changing the slot lay out will result in a ship that will be viable and usable in more situations then I wouldn't want to tie their hands to having to stay with one concept.

You can't increase the tempests damage output so that it "works" in armour because then you create an armour tanking minmatar ship that out damages a blaster boat at all ranges.

It seems you have many different camps on the Tempest due to the fact that it is at the moment a swiss army knife of battleships. It can be used either shield, armour, artillery and autocannons effectively. To top it all off it has two high utility slots which can be used to increase DPS or fit with other high slot modules. It is just like the hurricane really in this respect and that is what I love about it and I make use of all the different options reguarly.

B

That is not true at all.


Blaster damage is so much higher that this is simply a fallacy. Up to something like 18 km Blasters completely outdamage 800mm Autocannons. with same number of damage mods blasters outdamage AC completely inside tackle range, as they are supposed to. Not to forget taht blaster ships also bring extra drones to help with even more damage.

Your basically proving my point. Blaster damage is so much higher than autocannons on purpose, the only real way it begins to look competitive is when you compare shield with armour fits.

It seems you have many different camps on the Tempest due to the fact that it is at the moment a swiss army knife of battleships. It can be used either shield, armour, artillery and autocannons effectively. To top it all off it has two high utility slots which can be used to increase DPS or fit with other high slot modules. It is just like the hurricane really in this respect and that is what I love about it and I make use of all the different options reguarly.

But you have camps of people who use it either exclusively in one way or the other and so naturally they would prefer to see the way that they use the ship buffed. Essentially it will then become pigeon holed into the role in which it is buffed and will lose all its other uses and essentially lose its essence.

If you buff its shield ability then armour users will inevitable lose out and vice versa. If you buff short range autos then long range artillery users will lose out and vice versa. If you buff its overall EHP then signature and agility will suffer and vice versa.

I think the one thing everyone can agree on though is to increase its damage output as this will complement every play style for the ship equally and no one would argue. This could be done via the ship bonuses and so I think perhaps this is the way to go if any further changes are necessary.

You can't increase the tempests damage output so that it "works" in armour because then you create an armour tanking minmatar ship that out damages a blaster boat at all ranges. Shield Fitted with tracking mods, it's suddenly competitive on the damage output, but a complete paper tiger tank wise.

Armour tanking, it neither has the dps or the ehp to be competitive, to be honest, it was never really good for anything but pretending to be a BC, and now that BS hulls have been normalised, is even less likely to be considered by anyone as the go to ship for a specific role.

rant

Oh please enough with torpedos having less range than blasters its bull.... javelin torps ... also rigs to boost range if 25km odd range isn't enough. also null at the end of its falloff is doing pitiful damage.

bro as i said above to that guy ..u need to gtfo from empire also and go low sec or nullsec to learn proper pvp ...the new typhoon to work as a proper pvp ship if FLOWN by an EXPERT pilot and not a dumb **** ...it will have a armor buff and 3x trimarks ..so fitting a range rig to get like 5km or some **** like that but losing 10% armor hp wont happen ..no one ...and i mean no one will fit a range rig for torpedos on a typhoon if they fit for pvp not even people like my self that use slave sets...even i would go 3 trimarks plates / resists / dmg mods and that would be it so dont talk unless u flyed the ship and know wtf u on about ...typhoon is a excelent ship to surprize your enemy ..fit 5 torps 2 neuts and with the 5 ogres oh baby also ...to make it more interesting for u ccp HERE IS A SUGESTION ..since u gave the armageddon ..NOS bonus and turned it into a mini bhaalgorn / curse ..why not turn the bhaalgorn into a "larger" rapier give it 5% missile rof 7.5 % bonus to target paint / level that way or 7.5 reduction in exp radius / lvl that way u actually get a proper torpedo pvp typhoon and give ccp some time guys ...they are trying to rebalance the cruise missiles ...maybe they got something up next for torpedos also

why not turn the bhaalgorn into a "larger" rapier give it 5% missile rof 7.5 % bonus to target paint / level that way or 7.5 reduction in exp radius / lvl

Do you realise your coming across as a crazed ret@rd?

I don't think we need to pay any attention to you.

u sir are a cerbear who has no ******* clue what he is talking about ....time u got out of empire and maybe got your head out of your arse and see the problem here ...real pvp'ers use tornados insteed of tempest to snipe ..0.0 is full of them ..even jita is full of them second off if people want autocannons 9/10 will go for a hurricane insteed of a tempest ...9/10 will go for a maelstrom insteed of a tempest if they can fly only minmatar no one uses it it has bad slot layout u cant armor buff it decently u cant shield buff it decently u cant do proper dmg in it ...not even outspeed something is usless in everyway u put it

true.. even is comming form a test guy :P still true. Tornado and mael takes most of temepst roles. And now the geddon will take the bring the neuts role

Ok let me get this straight, your taking someone seriously who rants and thinks the Bhaal should lose it nuet bonuses and be turned into a rapier.....

Ok now that is out the way.

Rigs are not always used for extended endurance. They are used for cap, extra damage, improved electronics, and many other things. That lunatic is talking absolute nonsense.

Second, of course the tornado is a superior sniper. That is its intended role so is pretty much common sense. If it wasn't good at sniping then it wouldn't be much dam good.