So aside form the one person posting 6 times in a row there's consensus? The ishtar (and/or sentry drones) needs to be brought in line with other cruisers. No other cruiser uses Battleship grade weapons (with regards to damage projection in particular) while retaining the speed and sig of a cruiser.

QFT

so you think we should bring back the 100mn tengu fleets? Un-nerf the missiles because obviously if they can't kill it, it's not that the ship is too powerful, it's just failure to adapt.

You know exactly what I mean.

I never said anything about 100mn Tengus. Let's try to stay on topic.

I know you're defending your golden goose, that is fairly clear.

But I have yet to see anyone actually mount a genuine defense of a cruiser being able to fit a battleship sized weapon system that can track frigates.

I have very little issues with the Ishtar itself. But non battleships should not be able to fit sentry drones. Either that, or sentry drones need to be nerfed severely.

So why does that path of thought only apply to ishtars? Are they special in some way? If you think like that then you must be against any need to anything good, or does it just suit you for this argument?

You can put that "BS grade weapon" in a Tristan so maybe it isn't BS grade after all things considered.

Sentry drones are not BS weapons. End of story.

The Ishtar compared to AF and Command Ships is in a very acceptable spot. A few tweaks here and there and it would work well compared to other HACs. What I oppose is nerfing the Ishtar to the point where it is not even worth training for. The Gila truly isn't far behind if at all. The VNI offers similar DPS. The Stratios offers a covert ops cloak. Even a T1 Vexor can reach very high quantities of DPS.

Sentry drones are not BS weapons. End of story.

Spam posting half a dozen times in a row does not make your point valid. Did you even read what I posted above all the numbers? Just because you *can* currently deploy a (single) sentry drone from a frigate does not mean you *should* be able to, nor does it change the fact that sentry drones are *obviously* comparable to large turrets. If you really think otherwise, explain to me the 400m sig res of sentry drones, which exactly matches large turrets.

Sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating what you *want* to be true does not mean it *is* true. You're still wrong, no matter how obnoxiously repetitive you can be.

im sure comparing the same weapon system to itself is a great way to balance it. The Ishtar is the focal point of this discussion A: because this is a HAC thread and B: because it is the most powerful ship in the line of sentry using ships you listed. A lot of these argument could and probably would be applied to them if the Ishtar was no longer the front-runner of them.

An attempt to handwave away the argument without even attempting a rebuttal.

Thanks for telling me that you basically don't have one.

The proposed changes from CCP seem fair to me. It would still be better than all of those for sentries while narrowing a gap that will only continue to be reduced. What I have suggested is buffing other HACs and try to create niches for them. As you said, once the Ishtar is nerfed to the point it is more viable to fly an easier accessible and easier to train for ship another will just replace it. This leads to a continuous need to adjust ships.

It isn't just the DPS. The Sentry drones require no capacitor...no cpu or grid and the deploying ship needs only to remain within control range...which can be extended easily to 200km. Then it can run around the field not worrying about transversal and keep a superior force (in numbers and or mass) pinned down inside a bubble of fire from all sides.

It's real power comes from not needing to stay with its weapons system. If it had to stay within 30km of its sentries it would be easier to counter. As it is drones are cheap enough that you can *so what* and warp off...warp back drop a new set. Worst case scenario and you run out of drones in your bay...you can carry a mobile depot and 3 more sets in your cargo.

If you run out of 6 sets of sentry drones in an ishtar fleet and you're alive and still in system...then you are in an odd situation.

No, if the Ishtar is nerfed to where people are using other ships it is because they are chasing the full flight of sentries on a cruiser. Right now the Ishtar does it best, but if only the Ishtar loses them, then the problem hasn't been addressed, which is a full flight of bonuses sentries on a cruiser hull. That's why there's been proposal to not allow a full flight of sentries. Simple as that. You still get your range and tracking, but no longer have the full damage that makes it OP. And I would much prefer having sentries remain as they are rather than needing a class of drones used by other balanced ships.

And buff all the other HACs? Are you familiar with the term power creep?

It wasn't an argument. You built a strawman and I knocked it down.

Maybe if you drop the drone bay down from 375 to 200?

It would still retain the advantages of drones but reduce sustainability. And it creates a need to compromised between adaptability from light and medium drones and replacements from losses.

You don't even know what strawman means, do you?

The assertion that sentry drones are battleship tier weapons is not disputable. It's not up for debate, it's not a matter of opinion, and it's not my interpretation.

They are battleship weapons.

And they do not belong on a cruiser size ship. That's where the imbalance lies.

The Stratios can field 4 and if it was more readily available would be used more than an Ishtar.

The full flight of sentries makes it unique and fills a niche. When I say buff, I do not mean give every ship more DPS. Gallente is known for DPS, Minmatar is know for speed, Amarr for tank, and Caldari for range.

Why do you say that?And power creep isn't just dps either. It wouls be much easier to say each HAC already has a good niche (sans a few tweaks) if it weren't for the Ishtar doing them better. Remember how the Eagle was supposed to be the choice ship for long range dps (as is the focus of railguns) and how the ishtar did it better? Also notice how each race has two HACs each with a different specialization? In fact, pretty much any ship with weapons as their specialty is overshadowed by the ishtar. Thankfully the vagabond is all speed and the sacrilege is more tank-leaning. Otherwise they would be screwed too.

You created an argument I never made based on your own talking points.

I directly quoted you, and then called you out on your doubletalk.

You are directly opposing change, and you tried to claim that people who want the Ishtar nerfed are the ones who aren't able to deal with change.

You're an enormous hypocrite.

The Stratios can use a Covert Ops cloak. Its faster, more agile, can fit a better shield tank and has better cap.

Adding more optimal to an Eagle while adding even room for only a full flight of light drones would help alot.

So, no issues with the lost drone or the application bonuses? Also ishtar is faster than stratios. And as far as I've fitted the shield tanks are relatively the same.

If you are talking about the Ishtar HAC bonuses, no I do not think there is as much an issue. The Ishtar seems built to be a sentry ship.

The Ishtar with 1 Nano and 1 Experimental MWD is showing 1819 m/s for me while a Stratios is showing 1875m/s. The Ishtar will have higher resists but a Stratios can obtain a lot higher buffer if you take into account the extra rig slot and base shield hp. I also forgot to add the Stratios has a larger drone bay.