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Knoppaz distress signals borealis 34	Posted - 2014.08.06 08:05:00 - [1141] - Quote Guys, it's all nice with all the Sentry rage and Ishtar hate, but don't you all forget something regarding the topic of this thread..? What about all the other HAC? Might be worth to give the Ishtar a break and instead talk about those.. The Muninn for example. IMHO it should be a 5-5-5 ship. That utility high is absolute non-sense so make it a med slot instead and switching a low to a med would make the Muninn versatile in the best Minmatar tradition. Fit whatever you want, shield tank or armor tank, full rack of sensor boosters or a good mix of gyros and tracking enhancers, everything works. ..or the Sacrilege. This ship isn't that bad. It has two main problems: 1. It feels sluggish. Even with MWD it feels like using an AB. An agility-push would be nice, CCP. 2. It's missing a low. That utility high is nice, but a low instead would be far more useful (e.g. for a BCU, IS or EANM) Just leave the meds alone. ..or.. your turn ;) BTW, don't try to see everything only from your perspective. Reading all the Ishtar posts everything is about huge range and/or huge fleets.. You know, not everything in EVE is huge fleets or long range so please try to see it from a wider angle. If a ship doesn't work with you playstyle doesn't mean it's total crap ;) __________________________________________________ Knoppaz /-ádistressSIGNALS http://distresssignals.tumblr.com a capsuleer's way to insanity
Janice en Marland Cross Saber Holdings 1	Posted - 2014.08.06 08:09:00 - [1142] - Quote Rowells wrote: Janice en Marland wrote: If you are talking about the Ishtar HAC bonuses, no I do not think there is as much an issue. The Ishtar seems built to be a sentry ship. The Ishtar with 1 Nano and 1 Experimental MWD is showing 1819 m/s for me while a Stratios is showing 1875m/s. The Ishtar will have higher resists but a Stratios can obtain a lot higher buffer if you take into account the extra rig slot and base shield hp. I also forgot to add the Stratios has a larger drone bay. I'll give on the speed, forgot to factor in mass. However I still dont see any difference in tank. In fact fitting for best shield (w/prop mod) i have ishtar as the best tank, not to mention smaller sig, and a stable capacitor. And i'm still curious as to how much you dislike losing that extra sentry. I see my mistake. You are right on the tank, sig and more cap stable. The loss of a sentry would be bad for an Ishtar just for the fact the Stratios would be so similar. In fact, I think I might have talked myself into selling the Ishtar and buying a Stratios. That Cover Ops cloak is huge.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 8477	Posted - 2014.08.06 08:27:00 - [1143] - Quote Janice en Marland wrote: I directly oppose a huge nerf that would make the Ishtar not worth flying. I also believe other HACs need buffed. And I oppose one single ship dominating the meta. It needs taken down a peg. I don't care if you think that it not being the ubergoodsuperawesomebestship means that it's "not worth flying". The game cannot be held up by one ship, no matter who is flying it. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Clean Up Local 2014.-á
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 743	Posted - 2014.08.06 08:30:00 - [1144] - Quote I look forward to my armour combat drone ishtar being nerfed, since it is so OP.
Adrie Atticus The Shadow Plague The Bastion 212	Posted - 2014.08.06 08:50:00 - [1145] - Quote Janice en Marland wrote: Rowells wrote: Janice en Marland wrote: If you are talking about the Ishtar HAC bonuses, no I do not think there is as much an issue. The Ishtar seems built to be a sentry ship. The Ishtar with 1 Nano and 1 Experimental MWD is showing 1819 m/s for me while a Stratios is showing 1875m/s. The Ishtar will have higher resists but a Stratios can obtain a lot higher buffer if you take into account the extra rig slot and base shield hp. I also forgot to add the Stratios has a larger drone bay. I'll give on the speed, forgot to factor in mass. However I still dont see any difference in tank. In fact fitting for best shield (w/prop mod) i have ishtar as the best tank, not to mention smaller sig, and a stable capacitor. And i'm still curious as to how much you dislike losing that extra sentry. I see my mistake. You are right on the tank, sig and more cap stable. The loss of a sentry would be bad for an Ishtar just for the fact the Stratios would be so similar. In fact, I think I might have talked myself into selling the Ishtar and buying a Stratios. That Cover Ops cloak is huge. Covert Ops cloak is huge when you are not in a fleet of 100+. In a fleet, let's see how the damage works with armor fit Stratios vs. armor ishtar. Stratios will be also taking the benefit of the laser bonus: Graphs are with 4 sentries on both ships! Both ships have 2x Omni II and 2x Tracking speed script, both with an MWD, Startios also has 2x TC with tracking scripts for lasers. Ishtar has less EHP and less speed. Gardes and Scorch on Stratios vs Garde on Ishtar (because fitting beams means you lose 55% EHP.) http://i.imgur.com/7FGsw5S.jpg Bouncers with Scorch on Startios: http://i.imgur.com/2lE6j8g.jpg Stratios is a good ship, but it cannot even come close to Ishtars in damage or application. If you want to see more graphs feel free to make them yourself or drop a fit and I'll see what I can do. Fact is that they are not even close to being comparable in damage or application and are not even close to "similar" outside of both being space ships with a large drone bay.
Adrie Atticus The Shadow Plague The Bastion 212	Posted - 2014.08.06 09:01:00 - [1146] - Quote More and more I look at the other ships, I don't think there is a subcap which can match Ishtar in damage. If something comes close, it could be the Vindi, but why use a slower and more expensive ship to do the same job as a HAC can do?
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 244	Posted - 2014.08.06 09:05:00 - [1147] - Quote Adrie Atticus wrote: More and more I look at the other ships, I don't think there is a subcap which can match Ishtar in damage. If something comes close, it could be the Vindi, but why use a slower and more expensive ship to do the same job as a HAC can do? I assume you mean damage when factored against range and application? And to a lesser extent ship manoeuvrability?
Adrie Atticus The Shadow Plague The Bastion 212	Posted - 2014.08.06 09:08:00 - [1148] - Quote afkalt wrote: Adrie Atticus wrote: More and more I look at the other ships, I don't think there is a subcap which can match Ishtar in damage. If something comes close, it could be the Vindi, but why use a slower and more expensive ship to do the same job as a HAC can do? I assume you mean damage when factored against range and application? And to a lesser extent ship manoeuvrability? Applied DPS, not paper DPS. If paper DPS mattered, we'd all fly machs and vindis and rattlers everywhere in PvP. Agility of the ship is just a massive bonus on top of that, especially because they're virtually immune to bombing.
Odithia Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 57	Posted - 2014.08.06 09:09:00 - [1149] - Quote Knoppaz wrote: ..or the Sacrilege. This ship isn't that bad. It has two main problems: 1. It feels sluggish. Even with MWD it feels like using an AB. An agility-push would be nice, CCP. 2. It's missing a low. That utility high is nice, but a low instead would be far more useful (e.g. for a BCU, IS or EANM) Just leave the meds alone. ..or.. your turn ;) I kinda like the Sacrilege slot layout, it gives the ship a niche that few other have with lot of utilitty, a hi slot, a bunch of mids and a decent drone bay. I do agree that it feel way too sluggish, especialy if you fit a plate, I think it could use the "heavy mass and boost base speed" new gen Amarr rebalance. Wouldn't hurt the Zealot too.
Anthar Thebess 638	Posted - 2014.08.06 09:16:00 - [1150] - Quote Well the issue in isthar that its paper DPS can be easily transferred to applied damage. People are using sentry drones to do ratting. Many trained alts to fly isthars, and use them to assist 2 other alts to main. Worst isthar = less accounts , as they will be not to profitable. So maybe another aproach. Instead of chaging isthars - make sentry drones track half as good as they can now. So new tracking speed on all sentry drones = current tracking / 2. Why? PVP. People usually don't fly towards enemy. They orbit him, move. PVE. Rats FLY TOWARDS you in straight line. So, reduced tracking speed will make sentry drones less appealing , as drones will miss moving/ orbiting targets. At the same time sentry drones will keep most of their effectiveness in PVE. This will also put a bit ease to effectivenesses of sentry carriers/ dominixes and ishtars in PVP - stuff that most people would like to change. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 743	Posted - 2014.08.06 09:24:00 - [1151] - Quote Adrie Atticus wrote: Stratios is a good ship, but it cannot even come close to Ishtars in damage or application. If you want to see more graphs feel free to make them yourself or drop a fit and I'll see what I can do. how is stratios even remotely good if you aren't a cloakscrub? it's trash just like the other SOEs.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 8479	Posted - 2014.08.06 09:34:00 - [1152] - Quote Adrie Atticus wrote: afkalt wrote: Adrie Atticus wrote: More and more I look at the other ships, I don't think there is a subcap which can match Ishtar in damage. If something comes close, it could be the Vindi, but why use a slower and more expensive ship to do the same job as a HAC can do? I assume you mean damage when factored against range and application? And to a lesser extent ship manoeuvrability? Applied DPS, not paper DPS. If paper DPS mattered, we'd all fly machs and vindis and rattlers everywhere in PvP. Agility of the ship is just a massive bonus on top of that, especially because they're virtually immune to bombing. Some ships can beat it in paper dps, but in applied dps nothing can really match it. A Vindicator within it's engagement range can, but the engagement range is about 1/8th of an Ishtar. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Clean Up Local 2014.-á
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 244	Posted - 2014.08.06 09:37:00 - [1153] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Adrie Atticus wrote: afkalt wrote: Adrie Atticus wrote: More and more I look at the other ships, I don't think there is a subcap which can match Ishtar in damage. If something comes close, it could be the Vindi, but why use a slower and more expensive ship to do the same job as a HAC can do? I assume you mean damage when factored against range and application? And to a lesser extent ship manoeuvrability? Applied DPS, not paper DPS. If paper DPS mattered, we'd all fly machs and vindis and rattlers everywhere in PvP. Agility of the ship is just a massive bonus on top of that, especially because they're virtually immune to bombing. Some ships can beat it in paper dps, but in applied dps nothing can really match it. A Vindicator within it's engagement range can, but the engagement range is about 1/8th of an Ishtar. Rage HAMs shooting webbed battleships Rattlesnake could do it too, big time, using RLML Gila us up there too, augmented hammers and rapid lights again. Silly stuff aside, any way you cut it, it's niche/impractical/exceptionally short range stuff for the most part.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 8481	Posted - 2014.08.06 09:37:00 - [1154] - Quote Knoppaz wrote: ..or the Sacrilege. This ship isn't that bad. It has two main problems: 1. It feels sluggish. Even with MWD it feels like using an AB. An agility-push would be nice, CCP. 2. It's missing a low. That utility high is nice, but a low instead would be far more useful (e.g. for a BCU, IS or EANM) Just leave the meds alone. Hands off my utility high. The Sac needs a bit more speed, as you mentioned, but overall the Sacrilege is an amazing ship. It's the Legion-lite, and it kicks ass and looks good doing it. The only thing I would really change about the ship, is not about the ship itself, but rather that Heavy Assault Missiles need buffed pretty badly. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Clean Up Local 2014.-á
Knoppaz distress signals borealis 33	Posted - 2014.08.06 09:54:00 - [1155] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Hands off my utility high. The Sac needs a bit more speed, as you mentioned, but overall the Sacrilege is an amazing ship. It's the Legion-lite, and it kicks ass and looks good doing it. The only thing I would really change about the ship, is not about the ship itself, but rather that Heavy Assault Missiles need buffed pretty badly. The speed is ok imho, but the agility is lacking. Also I absolutely understand that people like the utility slot though another low would really be helpful. Besides, why does everyone having problems with HAMs? __________________________________________________ Knoppaz /-ádistressSIGNALS http://distresssignals.tumblr.com a capsuleer's way to insanity
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1518	Posted - 2014.08.06 09:59:00 - [1156] - Quote Adrie Atticus wrote: More and more I look at the other ships, I don't think there is a subcap which can match Ishtar in damage. If something comes close, it could be the Vindi, but why use a slower and more expensive ship to do the same job as a HAC can do? The APOC can get close... not match it.. but get close. But at huge cost in mobility. At end Ishtar, because of sentry capability of reachign far with high dps and high tracking is in a class completely above other ships ( same for the dominix, altough the dominix at least is not mobile ) "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
Anthar Thebess 638	Posted - 2014.08.06 10:00:00 - [1157] - Quote Knoppaz wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Hands off my utility high. The Sac needs a bit more speed, as you mentioned, but overall the Sacrilege is an amazing ship. It's the Legion-lite, and it kicks ass and looks good doing it. The only thing I would really change about the ship, is not about the ship itself, but rather that Heavy Assault Missiles need buffed pretty badly. The speed is ok imho, but the agility is lacking. Also I absolutely understand that people like the utility slot though another low would really be helpful. Besides, why does everyone having problems with HAMs? Because those are HAM's. They are just to slow, and faster moving target can easily outrun those missiles. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1518	Posted - 2014.08.06 10:00:00 - [1158] - Quote Knoppaz wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Hands off my utility high. The Sac needs a bit more speed, as you mentioned, but overall the Sacrilege is an amazing ship. It's the Legion-lite, and it kicks ass and looks good doing it. The only thing I would really change about the ship, is not about the ship itself, but rather that Heavy Assault Missiles need buffed pretty badly. The speed is ok imho, but the agility is lacking. Also I absolutely understand that people like the utility slot though another low would really be helpful. Besides, why does everyone having problems with HAMs? I dont have. HAMS are great. we use them a lot and they work wonders on small scale PVP. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 743	Posted - 2014.08.06 10:01:00 - [1159] - Quote hams are not good or bad
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1518	Posted - 2014.08.06 10:02:00 - [1160] - Quote Janice en Marland wrote: Kagura Nikon wrote: Adrie Atticus wrote: Janice en Marland wrote: I'm going to assume it is to prevent from being alpha hit off the field. That is not my fit btw. All it takes is a scram and the Ishtar is no longer faster. You really are just shiptoasting and actually not playing the game. Can you please elaborate, explain or show how you can apply scrams from a ship going max 700m/s to a ship going 2100m/s in a fleet situation? Ceptors are a good idea, except they will be at sentry optimals and die to a few Ishtars in a single volley. Probing down one of them and warping in an Eagle takes 8 seconds minimum, Ishtars are over 16k away when you land and over 20k away when you achieve a lock. What you expected from a character that does not have a single kill registered in its name on all history? Stop Janice. You are not contributing. You are clearly biased and pushing towards your own agenda and perception with complete disregard for the factual informationt that "ishtars" are grossly overpowered and abused by everyone that can in eve right now. I put ishtars between quotes because that is an issue of sentries not Ishtars mostly. Personal attacks now? My "agenda" is to prevent the Ishtar from being nerfed to oblivion by large alliance unable to keep up with rapid changes. Large alliance? PErsonal attack? You seems do not understand what is an attack and what is an accusation of bias. Also we are indeed a huge alliance with all our 68 members. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 8483	Posted - 2014.08.06 10:04:00 - [1161] - Quote Knoppaz wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Hands off my utility high. The Sac needs a bit more speed, as you mentioned, but overall the Sacrilege is an amazing ship. It's the Legion-lite, and it kicks ass and looks good doing it. The only thing I would really change about the ship, is not about the ship itself, but rather that Heavy Assault Missiles need buffed pretty badly. The speed is ok imho, but the agility is lacking. Also I absolutely understand that people like the utility slot though another low would really be helpful. Besides, why does everyone having problems with HAMs? They need their travel time reduced. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Clean Up Local 2014.-á
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1518	Posted - 2014.08.06 10:05:00 - [1162] - Quote Janice en Marland wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Janice en Marland wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Janice en Marland wrote: My "agenda" is to prevent the Ishtar from being nerfed to oblivion by large alliance unable to keep up with rapid changes. Translation. Your agenda is to oppose change by claiming that the people who want the Ishtar nerfed are the ones who really oppose change in the first place. Which is honestly mind boggling. You know exactly what I mean. I know you're defending your golden goose, that is fairly clear. But I have yet to see anyone actually mount a genuine defense of a cruiser being able to fit a battleship sized weapon system that can track frigates. I have very little issues with the Ishtar itself. But non battleships should not be able to fit sentry drones. Either that, or sentry drones need to be nerfed severely. Sentry drones are not BS weapons. End of story. Just because you chose to believe in fairies that does not make them exist. Sentry drones have 400 m resolution, they ARE battleships scale weapons. And worse they do not cost fittings. They are already overpowered at the dominix... in the ishtar they are completely broken. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
Anthar Thebess 638	Posted - 2014.08.06 10:09:00 - [1163] - Quote I have strange feeling that this topic is now more about how some weapon system's don't work as they should , rather than about what HAC needs changing. HAM's need their sped increased, to get to target much faster. Sentry drones needs their tracking speed reduced heavily to make ishar less OP in PVP without affecting PVE aspect of drone ships to much. What about Minin and eagle? So projectile and hybrid guns? Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 743	Posted - 2014.08.06 10:12:00 - [1164] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Sentry drones needs their tracking speed reduced heavily to make ishar less OP in PVP without affecting PVE aspect of drone ships to much. range reduction, not tracking
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1518	Posted - 2014.08.06 10:16:00 - [1165] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: Sentry drones needs their tracking speed reduced heavily to make ishar less OP in PVP without affecting PVE aspect of drone ships to much. range reduction, not tracking TRACKING.. not range. Their trcking is 3 times other weapons of same class. Their rang on other hand is not. They need range because they are not mobile. Turrets can coutner range issues by movign the ships. Sentries are deployed and stay, so they NEED to have logn range or they become usless very very fast. The problem is their tracking, because they can track as short range guns, while hitting at long range guns ranges. Just make them track EXACLTY as 425mm, 1400mm and Tachyons and everything will be all right. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 743	Posted - 2014.08.06 10:16:00 - [1166] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: TRACKING.. not range. Their trcking is 3 times other weapons of same class. no it isn't
Vulfen Snuff Box 128	Posted - 2014.08.06 10:16:00 - [1167] - Quote How about this - make the drone sentry and heavy drone bonus apply to all drones then make this a medium drone aimed ship This is what i was thinking Gallentee Cruiser Bonuses 7.5% Bonus to drone MWD, Tracking & Optimal range per level 10% Bonus to drone Damage & HP Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonues +1 Drone controled per level +5km Drone control range per level Reduce bandwidth to 100 This would mean that in an optimal fit it is designed to work with 10 medium drones. but it can still field 4 sentries if needed.
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1518	Posted - 2014.08.06 10:19:00 - [1168] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: I have strange feeling that this topic is now more about how some weapon system's don't work as they should , rather than about what HAC needs changing. HAM's need their sped increased, to get to target much faster. Sentry drones needs their tracking speed reduced heavily to make ishar less OP in PVP without affecting PVE aspect of drone ships to much. What about Minin and eagle? So projectile and hybrid guns? That is just a good example that CCP schedule of changes quite frequently is not focusing on the real issues. Every time a weapon system was adjusted, it was overly adjusted and made damage to the meta game. When they buffed lasers ( with 30% more tracking and reducing 10% of base EM resist of every ship) they became dominant wepaon. Then they buffed projectiles and it became dominant, then they nerfed projectiles (track ing enhancer nerf and nerfs to all minmatar ships during tiercide) whiel double boosting hybrids ( massive hybrids buffs with buffs to almsot all gallente boats).. they became dominant.. then they rebalance drone and give them damage mods ans super bonuses to drone boats. THey became dominant. Hint CCP.... boost things more carefully and frequently. Then you will not have to nerf later. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1518	Posted - 2014.08.06 10:20:00 - [1169] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Kagura Nikon wrote: TRACKING.. not range. Their trcking is 3 times other weapons of same class. no it isn't Yes it is, on that table 2 pages ago. Clear as water. Multiply the range for the trackign to have an effective trackign ratio (because range affects the engagement envelope) "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 743	Posted - 2014.08.06 10:23:00 - [1170] - Quote Vulfen wrote: How about this - make the drone sentry and heavy drone bonus apply to all drones then make this a medium drone aimed ship This is what i was thinking Gallentee Cruiser Bonuses 7.5% Bonus to drone MWD, Tracking & Optimal range per level 10% Bonus to drone Damage & HP Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonues +1 Drone controled per level +5km Drone control range per level Reduce bandwidth to 100 This would mean that in an optimal fit it is designed to work with 10 medium drones. but it can still field 4 sentries if needed. more like 50 bandwidth, 30% bonus to medium drone damage/hp per level, and swap the drone controlled bonus to a non-bonus like armour reps. I don't really like just drone mwd bonuses. should be drone speed with equal drone tracking bonus. or they could just fix the 'drones catch up and fire a volley, drones slow down and go out of range for 30s, drones catch up' thing, but obviously that'll never happen.

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