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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
31713
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:15:36 -
[181] - Quote
The probe bonus to Tactical Destroyers that always seemed out of place finally makes sense.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
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Masao Kurata
Perkone Caldari State
239
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:16:12 -
[182] - Quote
Hey remember the last time you tried to "fix" bombers and proposed a change to break all cloaky gameplay entirely which had to be abandoned? If bombers are so broken that you need to break other things to fix them, remove bomb launchers. Entirely. |
Jeremiah Cole
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
20
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:16:18 -
[183] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote: Regarding movement fleets though WH space, we have something we're working on for this. That said some of the feedback we've received is mixed. Reducing power projection though WH space (for both WH residence & passes though) not seen as all bad.
I fail to see how power projection through WH space needs to be reduced at all. When you take into consideration the fact that wormholes aren't always going to go where you want and that due to mass constraints you can't just warp six dreads to a hole and jump someone, our ability to project power is already hindered in comparison to that of other capital weilding k-space entities.
Our only advantage is being able to take a capital from one region in New Eden and move it across space with only a fraction of the time and fatigue, and even then we are (once again) constrained my wormhole mass. There are A LOT of wormholes that can only be used by certain sizes of ship, and depending on the mass of said ships, very low Before engaging we have to stop and consider what we're willing to commit to a fight because there's only so much we can. We have to take into consideration the locals and their ability to project defensive capitals and fleets, and if that's worth the risk.
Null sec entities using wormholes to move around? Imagine that, wormholes actually getting used in a way they're meant to. Null sec entities can also use wormholes to move capitals around, but even then they can bring (at most) 3 capitals through a wormhole before it closes. And no, supers can't fit.
As far as subcapital fleets go, you (once again), have to be worried about the mass you'll be using to traverse wormholes with whatever fleet you have. A fleet of 20-50 pilots traversing wormholes can significantly affect the mass of the wormhole, so when in a fleet you're limited in what you can bring and how much of what you can bring. I can't tell you how many times we've had to tell people to actually STAY HOME instead of come out and PVP with us because a wormhole went Critical when we could have benefited from their presence in fleet.
Did I mention polarity, which prevents pilots from crashing back to a wormhole constantly in an effort to survive a gate camp? You don't have that with gates.
There is already a severe lack of content in wormhole space, and this change only works to drive out smaller entities and those looking to establish a foothold in W-Space. |
Valterra Craven
572
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:19:53 -
[184] - Quote
This seems like a rather silly change just to nerf bombers.
You're hurting people in WH, Highsec, and lowsec just so the fleet bombers get on grid 10-30 seconds slower than before.
I don't understand why everyone must suffer when the desired outcome won't be all that much to begin with. You still have bomber fleets, you still have all of the problems with bomber fleets, with just a medicore delay to target?
I have two accounts with which I use to run missions in highsec, a tanky bs for killing big targets, and high dps quick shooting bc/bs to kill things like frigs and cruisers more quickly. Yet I now have to suffer so that in the end you achieve barely noticeable changes to fleet bombers?
I really think you need to come up with a way not to throw the baby out with the bath water. Not everybody plays in large groups of fleet metas that unbalance the game. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
980
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:21:16 -
[185] - Quote
Black Canary Jnr wrote:Much moaning, most of it not justified, lacking real criticism, and can be solved by using a cloaky scanner alt as the warpin. Alts Online..... intensifies
I'm right behind you
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VENUS XY
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:22:43 -
[186] - Quote
IMO this will lead to mainly 2 things, unkillable ogb t3's and FC's continuing to run a "1 man show". No one will want to fly a useless probing ship and not get on any killmails, you are just making the FC run one more account. Small gang pvp takes a hit as well as you are just reducing the amount of fights that can be forced, and you need to force fights in this game. This change directly reduces content for a significant playerbase while further aggravating other issues in the game. -1 |
Syrias Bizniz
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
404
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:22:46 -
[187] - Quote
This will not change much. The list of people carrying responsibility in a Fleet will rise from 2 (FC + Scout) to 4: FC, Scout, and 2 moving perches in ceptors, repositioning themselves on grid as needed and functioning as a warpable beacon moving at 6km/s.
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Harkin Issier
Sleeper Slumber Party Test Alliance Please Ignore
27
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:24:43 -
[188] - Quote
CCP tell me, what is the lifeblood of group PVP?
It's the FCs.
Now, what is the position in all of EVE most prone to burnout?
FCing.
Now, why would you ever think that making an FC's life harder as an (ineffective) side-swipe at nerfing bomber pilots would be a good idea? |
Villa Deaver
The Desolate Order Brave Collective
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:25:10 -
[189] - Quote
Airi Cho wrote:Scott Ormands wrote:There HAS to be a solution that isn't more alts. They are called other players doing that role.
That's a tiny, tiny bit optimistic. Chances that it's going to be another player doing that and not an alt of a player that really wants to be doing something other than being the "warpin guy" are about 0%. |
Two FistTom
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:26:33 -
[190] - Quote
Here is an idea CCP:
Stop wasting time coming up with dumb "little" changes like this that will take away game play and focus on things that are far more important like new "good" content. Taking a knife to fleet warping is not good content. If you are trying to make the underdog have a chance in large bulb fights there are several more logical methods. All I see this doing is making playings go inactive for the summer until you guys also realize this idea is dumb. |
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
737
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:26:39 -
[191] - Quote
Tim Nering wrote:fleet warps arent harming anything. does life have to get harder?
as someone who multi boxxes.......UGH.
Op success.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
86
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:27:00 -
[192] - Quote
What the serious 'F'? What part of the game play tied to this felt so stagnating that it deserved such a nerf?
I hate bomber wings as much as the next man, but this literally changes nothing! Even for brawler fleets this changes NOTHING!!!!
Bomber wing: 1) FC gets a hit, warps in @30/40 and swings to proper position for wing. 2) Wing then warps to him, cloaks don't break cloaks so element of surprise remains, just slows down each wave until they get some practice then nothing changes. 3) Bomb and warp off like normal.
Brawler (EVERY OTHER) fleet: 1) Prober gets a hit, warps in ~0-30 depending on angle. Will likely be on grid just like they are now - cloaked- to see angle of approach to direction of enemy fleet movement. 2) Wing is already aligned to hostile fleet. Prober lands, fleet warp to cloaked member. Prober quickly warps back to ping to avoid decloak. 3) Engage as per the norm.
Even for PLEXes, player with journal entry/probe hit goes in first, other warp to him. Exactly as we do now.
So I ask again, why are you wasting our dev's time with these worthless side projects? Whatever team you had working on this could have easily been working on something more valuable than this. Such as: - Interactive mining system - keep us awake! - Anom/plex overhaul - give us something new! - True sec balance/removal/rework - fozzie, your sov mechanics makes this a must... - Anything from THIS thread. - Making coffee |
Winter Archipelago
Furtherance.
374
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:28:04 -
[193] - Quote
So, two serious questions as I'm thinking more about this:
First, this is an absolutely massive buff to the defenders. Having to essentially sit and wait compared to having to coordinate warps to land at the same time is such a different beast that it's not even fair trying to compare them. Is this an intended outcome despite the past changes that were more oriented towards /weakening/ defenders?
Secondly, how much speculation has been put into how this will affect mixed-size fleets? Battleships and Battlecruisers were already seeing significantly less use, but with their slow warp speed, they'll be landing a significant amount of time after the faster ships. Even if everyone is just off-grid from the intended warp-to and is already aligned, the slower start-up and slow-down that larger ships have mean that frigs and cruisers will have been on-grid and vulnerable for a fair amount of time. Combined with latency issues and missed voice commands, I'm concerned that a change like this will end up homogenizing fleets even more than they already are.
Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections.
Once you've made your choice, join the channels EVE-Scout or Furtherance Public and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
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Scott Ormands
The Desolate Order Brave Collective
33
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:29:38 -
[194] - Quote
Airi Cho wrote:Scott Ormands wrote:There HAS to be a solution that isn't more alts. They are called other players doing that role.
As far as I can tell you've never lived in a WH (quick corp history and KB check) we generally don't have spare corp members that I can just leave sitting cloaked watching, I need them in their best ship ready to fly.
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Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union Mordus Angels
243
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:30:12 -
[195] - Quote
I appreciate the goals this change is trying to accomplish - reducing the effectiveness of mass bomber wings, making sniping fleets a bit more effective, and making fleet combat more interactive and dynamic on the part of the individual pilots. All good things. Making your T1 Tackle Frigate, or Interceptor feel as important as in the "I Was There" video is a good thing.
I'm glad to see some of the concerns already acknowledged - catching and holding Slippery Petes and Off Grid Boosters. The Tactical Destroyers having the ability to fit Expanded Probe Launchers helps a bit with this, as they can tank much better than a Covops Frigate. Scanning down a Pete should be possible with a T3 Destroyer - if you have to use a Covops frigate with Virtues, it will just get melted, or they'll move before you can land on grid and provide a warp-in.
My main concern is with high-end wormhole sites. You absolutely have to warp your entire fleet in together, because you need to put up cap chain and get logistics up as fast as possible, or you'll lose ships. This is the same as with some missions and Incursions, but in most of those cases there are acceleration gates you can all warp to and prepare to take the gate together. This isn't the case in W-Space - even with the scanned sites, frequently we have to make warp-in bookmarks closer to the Sleepers to warp the fleet to.
Because of the current POS mechanics, in W-Space, it is beneficial to have multiple smaller corps to restrict access to assets. This change will hurt them more, as well as NPSI groups.
Sharing corp bookmarks is already incredibly painful - copying them from corp to personal, then dragging them a few at a time into vouchers and storing in a can is horrible busywork.
Instead, I would suggest the following:
- As listed above by Phoenix Jones, rather than the proposed changes, instead limit fleet warps to Squad Leaders.
- Give us a way to manually sync corp bookmarks - currently it takes up to 5 minutes and/or a session change to update. Give us a "Sync" button so we can speed this up.
- Give us Alliance and/or Fleet bookmarks - we can create a folder, and designate it to share to an entire fleet. Even if pilots have to manually warp to the bookmarks (they will be more engaged), it won't slow down combat as much.
- Make it MUCH easier to share bookmarks - currently pulling a few bookmarks out of 25,000 manually is incredibly painful.
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union - "Turning Lead into Gold since 2008"
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Lt Shard
Team Pizza Good at this Game
8
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:31:28 -
[196] - Quote
Krops Vont wrote:Please run with this idea. No one liked wormhole changes but they came and came hard. W-space is still teaming with life. EVE always needs change no matter how much players grog about it.
The wormhole changes added content and I have thoroughly enjoyed catching rolling capitals because of it. Sparks fights.
I cant see what this change adds. It only takes away. Someone please tell me. |
Long Muppet
Lazerhawks
2
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:31:37 -
[197] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Tatsuj Khan wrote:Suggestion: Make corporate wormhole BMs "public" just as gates are, and allow fleets to warp from WH to WH in a coherent group. Otherwise as the Dev proposal stands now, the fleet can't work together as they land because ships are strung out throughout the system. This allows the enemy to pick off small faster ships first as the landing fleet straggles in.
If wormhole BMs are made "public", it should significantly lessen the damage this nerf does to WH corp membership and fleet ops. I recall somewhere in the sov changes thread, devs stated that changes should enhance game play rather than add unnecessary difficulties and tedium. This is a great suggestion. Building on it - allowing fleet warping to WH probe results could also work. There are a couple of questions we'd like to thrash out and get more feedback on relating to power projection in WH space before we make a change like this.
Maybe you should get more feedback relating to power projection in WH space before you make the fleet warp changes? K-Space residents have the benefit of fleet warping cohesively to gates, WH residents do not.
CCP Larrikin wrote:Quiggle Queue wrote:[Is it really "power projection", just to be able to warp as a group to a "stargate"? That seems pretty much standard travel outside of wormholes. You still can fleet warp a group to a stargate =)
This is the point Quiggle was trying to make. Is it really considered WH "power projection" if K-space residents can do the same thing with stargates.
Ultimately I feel like this is yet another idea which only negatively impacts small gang PVP, but does nothing to impact super large fleets. Large coalition fleets will have no problem dedicating a scout 1 of their 255 to be a scout. To those of us who fly with 4 or 5 people .. that's a large sacrifice. |
Syrias Bizniz
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
404
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 00:32:16 -
[198] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:So, two serious questions as I'm thinking more about this:
First, this is an absolutely massive buff to the defenders. Having to essentially sit and wait compared to having to coordinate warps to land at the same time is such a different beast that it's not even fair trying to compare them. Is this an intended outcome despite the past changes that were more oriented towards /weakening/ defenders?
Secondly, how much speculation has been put into how this will affect mixed-size fleets? Battleships and Battlecruisers were already seeing significantly less use, but with their slow warp speed, they'll be landing a significant amount of time after the faster ships. Even if everyone is just off-grid from the intended warp-to and is already aligned, the slower start-up and slow-down that larger ships have mean that frigs and cruisers will have been on-grid and vulnerable for a fair amount of time. Combined with latency issues and missed voice commands, I'm concerned that a change like this will end up homogenizing fleets even more than they already are.
No idea why your fleet would get seperated, tbh, since you can still Fleetwarp them. You just need 1 (one) other fleetmember as your warpin first. Or warp to celestials. |
Darth Bex
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
25
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:32:40 -
[199] - Quote
From a purely selfish wormholer perspective, this change is just going to double my travel time while I wait for alliance members to warp to me, bookmark, repeat.
If we had Alliance bookmarks, however...
Disciple of Bob
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Tyr Dolorem
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
139
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:33:47 -
[200] - Quote
Jeremiah Cole wrote:
There is already a severe lack of content in wormhole space, and this change only works to drive out smaller entities and those looking to establish a foothold in W-Space.
There might be more if you hadn't blued everyone lol. |
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Valterra Craven
572
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 00:34:24 -
[201] - Quote
I just had a thought. If this whole change is really to nerf time on grid for bombers, why don't you ya know do something slightly simpler like nerfing their warp accl and speed? |
Teeva Nakisti
In Your Base Killin Your Doods Waterboard Comedy Tour
8
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:34:36 -
[202] - Quote
CCP, this change is bad and you should feel bad.
I regularly use fleet warps to bookmarks(I always bookmark probe results before warping), to get in and out of wormholes. I am not warping a fleet of people around, only my own alts. You are removing the ability for me to effectively move myself around in non-combat situations.
Players use fleet warps to bookmarks and probe results for all sorts of reasons, not simply to engage in pvp combat.
And as far as pvp goes, this change goes against the idea of doctrine, where all players in the same class of ship, with the same fittings, who have trained the same skills in order to fly, all must warp and land at the same time at a specific range from the enemy.
If you want to look at a mechanic that is garbage and needs changing or removing, take a hard look at the Regroup command that FCs have. And if this change you are making is to work, hot drops must also be nerfed, or that will become the preferred method of engaging an enemy.
Stop nerfing mechanics that are only 'related' to the problems you face. If you have a problem with bomber fleets, then MAN UP and nerf specifically the bomber class of ships, not game mechanics that everyone uses for purposes far broader than you can see(your own dev responses in this thread show this to be a fact).
As a final note, since you(CCP) seem to have the ideal way to play the game already in your mind, can you enlighten us with your vision of what eve should be? Because it certainly seems, as of late, that you are specifically forcing changes(nerfs) on us that the broad community isn't asking for. Also, stop listening to the ideas of a single CSM member, if the majority of the CSM doesn't champion an idea, then the idea is not worthy. |
Digiblast
The Collective B O R G
0
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:34:48 -
[203] - Quote
Can we protest this change?
Atleast part of it..
Can we ask the president of Iceland to give us the option to vote on this???
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Long Muppet
Lazerhawks
2
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:34:51 -
[204] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:The change restriction is too high and affects too many areas of life in Eve, from Kspace, to Null, to Wspace. I would propose a smaller iteration to address the concerns of how fleet warp mechanics now work.
- Permit Squad Commanders in a fleet to fleet-warp their squad to bookmarks and probed sigs.
Essentially you move the capabilities of the overall fleet and wing commander down to the squad level. You remove the big flying balls of hurt down to decisions made by the squad commander, permitting them to decide on tactical warp ins, locations and fleet warps for their squad. You restrict fleet warps down to a 10 man team, with a individual per 10 man team making individual decisions for that 10 man team, to support the fleet efforts. Fleet and Wing commanders would lose this ability to warp entire armada's to bookmarks and scanned sigs, but permit smaller skirmish groups/squads to warp their small group to them. You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into. You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a Fleet Commander. Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role verses just being a booster for their fleetmates. I'd start with baby steps first, commonly known as "A Iteration" (Thanks for that CCP Rise). Remove the ability for fleet commanders and wing commanders from warping entire groups to bookmarks and scan probes, and reduce it down to the squad level. Try that first. See how it actually works.
This is a beautiful suggestion for an alternative. I hope it receives the attention it deserves.
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Syrias Bizniz
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
404
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 00:35:35 -
[205] - Quote
Darth Bex wrote:From a purely selfish wormholer perspective, this change is just going to double my travel time while I wait for alliance members to warp to me, bookmark, repeat.
If we had Alliance bookmarks, however...
Covops with warpspeed rigs maybe? As a +1? No? No scouting? Just blind warps around space? Cool. |
Lucius Kalari
Limited Power Inc It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
9
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:36:47 -
[206] - Quote
I get the feeling that this is going to be another "Hyperion" issue where the community tell CCP that what they're proposing is stupid, but they ignore us all and go ahead with what they proposing.
FC doesn't do everything, members of the fleet are doing things as well, so I don't really know where that has come from.
Phoenix Jones wrote:Or you can just cut 99% of the bull out of it and restrict all bookmark and probing fleet warps to just the Squad Commander.
Want to warp the fleet, the squad commander in charge of the 10 people can do it. The wing commander and the fleet commander cannot warp the group in whole.
You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into.
You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a fc.
Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role (vs just being a booster).
I'd start with baby steps first, commonly known as "A Iteration" (Thanks for that CCP Rise).
Remove the ability for fleet commanders and wing commanders from warping entire groups to bookmarks and scan probes, and reduce it down to the squad level.
Try that first. See how it actually works.
Yes this sounds like a great idea, and would be great for your "need more people in fleet to do more things" argument.
As for not being able to warp to bookmarks if you don't have it, how about making them instantly available for corp then? I think up to a minute is acceptable for bookmark to sync up, but realistically that wouldn't happen because of latency issues. However for alliances, maybe it's about time for alliance bookmarks? You'd need multiple scouts from each corp in the alliance to scan down the exact same thing the other scout is scanning, which seems like wasted time. So rather than not being able to fleet warp to bookmarks, why not take Phoenix Jones' idea and make squad leaders warp the squads in instead? Change is always good, but half the time what is proposed is infuriating. Why not just ask for feedback about things? The blunt approach of "We're changing stuff just coz" is so annoying because I love EVE and it's an amazing game, but why can't you look at things in the game that need fixing that is way higher up on the priority list? Because I really don't think fleet warping is that much of an issue.
Hi, I'm Lucius Kalari and I'm .LIMP
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11348
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 00:38:32 -
[207] - Quote
Dunk Dinkle wrote:It appears that to nerf bombers, you are nerfing all fleets.
CCP applying a sledgehammer to something that could have used a scalpel? Wish I could say this is a 1st. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
981
|
Posted - 2015.06.12 00:39:24 -
[208] - Quote
Krops Vont wrote:Please run with this idea. No one liked wormhole changes but they came and came hard. W-space is still teaming with escalation farmers. EVE always needs change no matter how much players grog about it. Fixed that for you
I'm right behind you
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Steven Hackett
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
146
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:40:32 -
[209] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote: Both of these points are solid. Corbexx brought these up while we where talking to the CSM about the change. Regarding slowing down the speed of sites, given the potential profitability of wormhole space, we don't consider this a major negative. Regarding movement fleets though WH space, we have something we're working on for this. That said some of the feedback we've received is mixed. Reducing power projection though WH space (for both WH residence & passes though) not seen as all bad.
The speed of the fleet will, if these changes goes trough, be dependent on how fast the corp bookmark propagates. Imo. that is a horrible design goal and I hope you agree? Please don't make us dependent on the worst parts of your game.
Now, we can use fleetwarp to put outrfleet at that BM our scout just made for us. With these changes, our fleet will have to sit there and wait for 10-15 minuts until CCP decided that the last fleet member could get the bookmark. Your bad code/lack of processing power/whatever it is, will become the important factor of the engagement instead of the pilots skills to quickly formup, get in position etc.
We are already working against the time here due to those horrible changes you did to how WHs spawn and how the scanner automatically warns the people about new signatures. These changes would make those horrible changes even worse. |
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance
7
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:42:08 -
[210] - Quote
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:AAR; Venture kill- yes I know who cares, but the process on this I find important, Because without the fleet warp, If this was a guy in a Relic/data site, he would have been done and gone by the time bookmarks popped. and as for the gas, gas clouds decloak you. so getting a warp in to a person can be very difficult. as this tale shall show.
So I call in the guys and they bring a Jackdaw with dual scram and a few other ships. Becuase he is in the center of the cloud I cannot provide warp-in as I will be de-cloaked and he will see me and run off.
So you cant manually pilot your 500 m/s cloaked prospect around the cloud and line up his ship between you and the wh your gang is popping out of? |
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