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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Makkari Kock
Delusions of Adequacy
Get Off My Lawn
4
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:51:51 -
[151] - Quote
Black Canary Jnr wrote:Much moaning, most of it not justified, lacking real criticism, and can be solved by using a cloaky scanner alt as the warpin.
This should make fights more interesting and emphasis fleet members controlling more of their own actions or risk being caught out. Looking forward to it.
How is the fc using a scanner alt as you yourself suggest making anything more interesting? It's just adding more headache, which seems to be easily mistaken for content and fun nowadays. |
Makkari Kock
Delusions of Adequacy
Get Off My Lawn
4
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:54:20 -
[152] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Thats the goal of the change. We want more fleet member participation. Fleets that have motivated and trusted probers will do a lot better than fleets that have the FC trying to do everything.
Do you know how hard it is to get people to actually do these annoying unrewarding roles in the fleets? It's not hard work, and it's very unrewarding and completely transparent to most members, just like boosting. People do them because you force someone to do it or you won't undock, what people really WANT to do is blow stuff up, not warp around cloaked telling the fc in command that the fleet can warp to him. |
Lt Shard
Team Pizza
Good at this Game
5
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:54:36 -
[153] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:
You can fleet warp to a fleet member already at the wormhole.
All this does it make things slower, and eve is a slow game as is.
Adding tedium is a terrible idea. |
SilentAsTheGrave
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
285
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:55:28 -
[154] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:Kaeda Maxwell wrote:So my main concern here is that this is a stealth buff to off grid boosters (OGB).
Many tech 3 off grid boosters are fitted both to be extremely hard to scan down and have a 100mn afterburner to burn around on the grid. Furthermore they often sit in deep safes (long warps).
Currently the best way to kill an OGB is to scan it down (which needs to be done fast or they cloak) fleet warp a lachesis or a tackle bomber to them (dscan invisibility).
After this change in order to kill a OGB you'll need to put a cloaky scout on grid with the OGB so you can warp to that. This causes a few issues, often OGB's are only decloaked for a limited amount of time, so the extra delay reduces the chances of catching it. Furthermore if it's in a deepsafe and burning with a 100mn 2 long warps instead of one makes it highly likely that it will now be out of tackle range completely by the time you get there.
Fitting tackle to the prober isn't that realistic a solution either since you need highly specialized fits to even be able to scan most tech 3 OGB's down in the first place. And many of the command ship variants that are hard to probe also carry a flight of ECM drones which puts further restraints on the fits of viable tackle ship.
So I worry that this change makes a class of ships that is already incredibly hard to kill even harder to kill.
Having corp bookmarks update instantaneously might be a viable work around, that way you still remove the automation but at least it doesn't hurt things like OGB hunting then. It is a very good point. Thank you.
They can always do some module restrictions. Don't allow gang links and ECCM modules to be fit at the same time. Maybe even address the over sized ab mod too.
Buddy Program: If you sign up with my buddy invite link and subscribe with a valid payment method - I will give you 95% of the going rate for PLEX!
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16127
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:56:45 -
[155] - Quote
Bat Country are in agreement with this change. Next step you should nerf repair broadcasts to squad only.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Tyr Dolorem
Snuff Box
Snuffed Out
136
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:57:45 -
[156] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:
The FC can still fleet warp to that scout.
"We want people to be more involved in the fleet, but it's k there's an ez pz workaround so you can still fleetwarp to where you wanna go it just requires the fc to have an alt warp there first, leaving the "fleet participation" unchanged and FC workload increased."
CCP Larrikin wrote:
power projection in WH space
r u srs? |
Quiggle Queue
POS Party
Low-Class
7
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:58:01 -
[157] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:
This is a great suggestion. Building on it - allowing fleet warping to WH probe results could also work.
There are a couple of questions we'd like to thrash out and get more feedback on relating to power projection in WH space before we make a change like this.
So isn't this reversing everything you have previously stated? Probe results, combat probe results, etc?
And that "stargate" was in quotations, because in a J-space, the wormholes are our gates :P |
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
90
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:58:11 -
[158] - Quote
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:They can always do some module restrictions. Don't allow gang links and ECCM modules to be fit at the same time. Maybe even address the over sized ab mod too.
Not everyone running a gang link and ECCM is sitting in a safespot. in small gang pvp people might actually have a single link on their BC and a ECCM if they expect ECM to be fielded.
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Malakai Asamov
Van Diemen's Demise
Pandemic Legion
35
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:58:33 -
[159] - Quote
Increasing warp to range to 250km or 500km would maintain a lot of benefits while decreasing some of the downsides bought up with this change, was that considered as an alternate fix? |
Kaliba Mort
Patriotic Tendencies
Executive Outcomes
13
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:59:14 -
[160] - Quote
You know, back in the day, there weren't even probes and fleet warps. People had to warp to Ws in fleet. And then there were cloaky scouts getting a warp in on stuff. And stuff died.
So I think it is a good change. FC is not suppose to be probing anyway. There are suppose to be probers in any decent fleet to find perfect warp-ins on target. Those can do a much better job than someone trying to do 10 things at once.
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Kenrailae
Fallen Reich
350
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:59:24 -
[161] - Quote
Fozzie, can you stahp? Focus on the real problems, not the circumstantial annoyances? You know, like those drones? I know losing is fun and everything come on.....
The Law is a point of View
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Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
239
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:59:45 -
[162] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Masao Kurata wrote:This is unnecessarily problematic for warping a fleet onto a target who is on a station, and thus you cannot get a covops remotely near without decloaking him. I think you've only considered a narrow range of fleet warp scenarios and are making people that are already very safe even safer. Somone who is on a station (stations can be fleet warped to) is already safe?
Stations are pretty big you know, especially caldari administrative stations (100km across!), warping to the station is very different from warping on top of a ship. Warping to zero on top of a target who has just acquired a weapons timer in order to apply high dps during this very short timer is a strong counter to station games. |
Angelicous Prada
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:00:30 -
[163] - Quote
Been playing in some large fleets lately.
I noticed the fc would drop his combat probes and fleet warp to the targets maneuvering 200k away.
I thought that was too much a one man show.
Rather I see a skilled pilot get a warp in by piloting.
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
737
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:03:16 -
[164] - Quote
Was that the sound of snipers becoming useful again?
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Makkari Kock
Delusions of Adequacy
Get Off My Lawn
5
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:04:19 -
[165] - Quote
Angelicous Prada wrote:Been playing in some large fleets lately.
I noticed the fc would drop his combat probes and fleet warp to the targets maneuvering 200k away.
I thought that was too much a one man show.
Rather I see a skilled pilot get a warp in by piloting.
You really do mistake clicking scan for skill. No one will want that role, they want in on them killmails instead of doing a task your 5-year old son could do.
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1360
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:05:23 -
[166] - Quote
Or you can just cut 99% of the bull out of it and restrict all bookmark and probing fleet warps to just the Squad Commander.
Want to warp the fleet, the squad commander in charge of the 10 people can do it. The wing commander and the fleet commander cannot warp the group in whole.
You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into.
You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a fc.
Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role (vs just being a booster).
I'd start with baby steps first, commonly known as "A Iteration" (Thanks Rise).
Remove the ability for fleet commanders and wing commanders from warping entire groups to bookmarks and scan probes, and reduce it down to the squad level.
Try that first. See how it actually works.
Yaay!!!!
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Xavier Thorm
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
149
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:05:34 -
[167] - Quote
I'm tentatively in favor of this change. |
Scott Ormands
The Desolate Order
Brave Collective
31
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:05:55 -
[168] - Quote
Airi Cho wrote:Scott Ormands wrote:Jezza McWaffle wrote:So you will now implement automatic bookmarking at a corporation and alliance level yes? Or is this just another way to **** up wormholers now. Since WE WILL have to wait for the bookmarks to propagate (up to 5-10 mins) unless we have to have a scout at the exact warp in at every single fight. Example if you have a group consisting of more than just 1 corp. Group A wants to fight Group B Group A consists of multiple corps Currently Group A can fleet warp onto the enemy fleet or wormhole without everyone involved having a propagated bookmark. However after this change if the group does not have the bookmark then they have no way of getting into the fight at the same time as the rest of the fleet. So all fights will be delayed until everyone has the bookmarks <10 mins. Good job CCP...  +1 I can no longer warp my entire fleet to the hole and expect them to land in a cohesive group, first my T3's land and get primaried then a minute later my Bhaals land and then 2 minutes later my triage lands by that time we are all dead. And that's assuming all of us have the BM which can take quite a long time to happen. CCP i am adamantly against this change. Please reconsider. 1. warp scout in at range X. 2. fleet warp to scout. 3. profit...?
There HAS to be a solution that isn't more alts.
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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
553
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:07:53 -
[169] - Quote
Quote:2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
8. Use of profanity is prohibited.
The use of profanity is prohibited on the EVE Online forums. This includes the partial masking of letters using numbers or alternate symbols, and any attempts at bypassing the profanity filter.
23. Post constructively.
Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.
I have removed a couple posts and those quoting them. Please stay on topic. It is OK to discuss the merit of an idea or change, but it is NOT OK to break our rules.
ISD Decoy
Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Kenrailae
Fallen Reich
350
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:08:12 -
[170] - Quote
Angelicous Prada wrote:Been playing in some large fleets lately.
I noticed the fc would drop his combat probes and fleet warp to the targets maneuvering 200k away.
I thought that was too much a one man show.
Rather I see a skilled pilot get a warp in by piloting.
THIS is a problem that needs to be looked at, being able to warp a fleet to a previously bookmarked location is not. It's in your ships nav computer, why can't you share that nav data with your fleet warp? Strategic bookmarks are a huge aspect of Eve combat..... Otherwise what's the actual advantage of home field advantage or going in and scouting/preparing a site for combat?
The Law is a point of View
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Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
91
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:08:51 -
[171] - Quote
Scott Ormands wrote:There HAS to be a solution that isn't more alts.
They are called other players doing that role.
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Tim Nering
R3d Fire
82
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:09:01 -
[172] - Quote
fleet warps arent harming anything. does life have to get harder?
as someone who multi boxxes.......UGH. |
Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union
Mordus Angels
243
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:09:34 -
[173] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:Or you can just cut 99% of the bull out of it and restrict all bookmark and probing fleet warps to just the Squad Commander.
Want to warp the fleet, the squad commander in charge of the 10 people can do it. The wing commander and the fleet commander cannot warp the group in whole.
You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into.
You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a fc.
Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role (vs just being a booster).
I like Phoenix's idea. It gives Squad Commanders more ability to be functional in a fleet, rather than just having enough Leadership skills to pass along boosts.
This would be similar to the Drone Assist change, where the number of drones was limited to 50. Setting your assists to specific members in fleet (like squad commanders), and having more of those members act as triggers gave more hierarchy and involvement in fleet combat.
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union - "Turning Lead into Gold since 2008"
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Shadowforge Dawkins
Catastrophic Overview Failure
Brave Collective
0
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:10:34 -
[174] - Quote
AAR; Venture kill- yes I know who cares, but the process on this I find important, Because without the fleet warp, If this was a guy in a Relic/data site, he would have been done and gone by the time bookmarks popped. and as for the gas, gas clouds decloak you. so getting a warp in to a person can be very difficult. as this tale shall show.
So after hopping on and seeing our scanned down Chain, I decided to jump into my prospect, time to get that shiny new toy after getting some gas to sell. Before leaving I check the Holes I will be huffing in... Regular hole, not a wolf-rayet so no sig tanking. I dump the tank equip and dual scram, toss on some stabilizers and microwarp drive. Off I go into the C5 static, and on down the chain, spamming D-scan. Arriving in the C2 I hit D-scan. Ventue.... POS.... same stuff as last time. bleh no fight this time. reduce D-scan to 10AU... Venture, sun, POS... Reduce to 5AU... Sun, Venture, nothing.... he's out gassing? perfect time to kill him and take the gas. what gas sites we got? gotta be quick on this- Barren and Ordinary... 1 venture. He is ninja'ing the barren go figure. I warp to the barren-sleepers? missed him? no he is in the other. ah he cleared it.... but that gas is worth way less than C-50? meh kill him anyways the guys need some content. So off I warp to the ord... He is sitting still in the center of the C-72. that's my baiting spot, but he is sitting still, not aligned, on the center of the gas cloud..... don't think its bait... take the bait hope for a big fight? do it.
So I call in the guys and they bring a Jackdaw with dual scram and a few other ships. Becuase he is in the center of the cloud I cannot provide warp-in as I will be de-cloaked and he will see me and run off. can't warp to old sig bookmark as it is 43 KM away. So I click his ship and hit "look at ship", then look around seeing the gas cloud mark is 1 KM away. I bookmark our warp-in point. we don't have fleet warp. well, the guys on home computers got the bookmarks to propagate very quickly, but the 2 on laptops... we tried a few things. My personal favorite for fixing this is what I call Forcing the BM's= Hit "add location" make a bookmark, then delete it. This often causes the bookmarks to propagate, except laptops. then you are not so fortunate, sorry sabre guy. Rather than fleet warping we wait for bookmarks. this guy can leave anytime... so glad I'm not in a Relic site doing this. Then the warp in, scram the venture, kill it. pod got away, fine we got the ship. and his gas=BONUS.
So how is this bad at relic/data sites? cloaked ships don't move fast, cans are often 15-30 KM apart sometimes 50 KM apart. we bookmark the next can he will hit as we are.... 40KM away and target is using a micro warp drive to get there. fleet warp to this location allows a drop on target where as waiting on bookmarks he will be long gone. And I've scrammed a Stratios while flying an Astero... it doesn't go very well for the tackle. |
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet
Northern Coalition.
1534
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:10:40 -
[175] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Fleets that have motivated and trusted probers will do a lot better than fleets that have the FC trying to do everything.
The reason FCs multibox is because that's what works, they don't do it for their health. If something else worked, it would already be happening. |
handige harrie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
309
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:11:26 -
[176] - Quote
I like the change, one man FC shows where getting too much. Now to rework combat scanning to something that requires a bit more skill to keep things interesting for the person who has the job to scan down the enemy and provide warpins... even my badly skilled alt was able to combat scan a solo frigate with ease using the default probe formation and sister combat probes.
Baddest poster ever
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Ubeleins
EVE Protection Agency
Bloodline.
0
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:11:33 -
[177] - Quote
Villa Deaver wrote:
This won't actually change anything, at least with regard to bomber fleets. Waffles and CFC and the rest will just invest the suddenly-necessary time into copying 10 bookmarks at a time and trading them to everyone in their fleets, because they play the game in a goal-oriented way no matter the cost. More casual and less organized bomber fleets, who aren't willing to invest so much time into un-fun, will be the ones who suffer.
Hanging out decloaked & trading bookmarks in space = getting probed down and killed (depending on the size of the system of course, in a really large system you could probably get away with doing something this stupid.)
As I (and many others) have already pointed out, the FC simply warps his/her probing alt into range, then fleet warps the fleet to his/her alt. All this will do is put their prober at slightly more risk of being decloaked & killed, and it will slightly delay how fast the line members get to land on grid. So I guess this will change average line member's gameplay experience... slightly... they'll be sitting there doing nothing for a few more seconds (or minutes if max tidi) before taking the fleet warp. Mission accomplished?
P.S. Speaking of breaking things that are working fine, can we un-break probes with this change finally? Before Odyssey when you launched probes and opened your map, your probes were at least where you launched them. Ever since Odyssey when you open the map they usually start at the sun, but randomly they'll be off in the middle of nowhere deadspace, but never where they actually are in space (well, I suppose if you warped to the sun before launching them, then they would at least have a chance to start off on the map where they are in space, if it's not one of those random deadspace spawns, but that's besides the point.) I want to be able to jump through a gate, launch combat probes, hit scan, and get results from where I launched them. Having to find them on the map, and move them back to where they actually are in space doesn't make any sense (I can see them on grid, they're right next to me ffs!) And it used to work just fine. It was also really nice for wormhole probing, being able to near instantly ping & eliminate your in-bound sig right after you jump in. And the reason I bring this up in this thread, is that it directly relates to combat probing / fleet warping. If the point of breaking probes in Odyssey was to slow down fleet movement while the FC (or prober) plays "let's find where the map put my probes this time" (which I think is just silly, non-immersive, & counter intuitive) would the change of having to warp his/her prober alt in first be enough of a delay that we could revert the broken probe behavior at least? |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Fidelas Constans
2480
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:11:47 -
[178] - Quote
Could we look into more ships getting fitting bonuses for probe launchers, or reducing the needs altogether? The smaller the fleet gets the more important every member becomes, and either switching a man (or two) out for probers or gimping fits so they can fit the launchers, becomes a bigger issue. It still definitley falls within the more people involvement idea, but less of a cost at doing so. |
Chase Hakoke
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
Black Legion.
22
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:14:31 -
[179] - Quote
How to fix eve in 4 simple steps (don't do this fleet warp change):
Nerf Bomb Damage to larger ships like BCs and BSs
Remove jump range nerf OR remove fatigue (not both).
Increase starting SP so new pilots can have fun non day 1.
Make Sov actually valuable to an alliance with income that comes from things other than moons
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Ohh Yeah
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
266
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Posted - 2015.06.12 00:14:35 -
[180] - Quote
you know im usually the first to make fun of people for being butthurt and I am having a good time watching people be butthurt
BUT
CCP if you keep "fixing" things in a way that isn't fun then even if you are making a more mechanically/conceptually sound game people will play it less because it's not fun
this issue doesn't affect me because I mostly fly solo but I can see how what you're trying to do technically works but it's just not fun for a lot of people and having a fun game is important |
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