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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1836
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:14:12 -
[751] - Quote
Dror wrote:The first 15 or so pages of this had no decent critique against the idea. What's the issue now?
SP is being "created out of nowhere"? So what? Checked out the retention claims? Ready to imply that SP has nothing to do with retention even though the mechanic keeps getting patched?
It's "forced"? If SP is so super that missing just a little makes players feel awful, how do fresh subs feel?
why are so many ppl defending this hung up on the SP
the SP is not the issue here
the issue is CCP telling you how to play their game
the issue is CCP just seeing you as a log in number
the issue is EVE is a game you can play at your own pace with out ever feeling you need to log in
the issue is making ppl want to log in for such a hollow reason is LAZY and if we reward them for being lazy they will keep being lazy
Citadel worm hole tax
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Iam Widdershins
Puppies and Christmas
904
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:14:33 -
[752] - Quote
After thinking about this a couple days, I think I can give some feedback.
This should diminish over time, perhaps at the same rate that skill injectors' effectiveness does. I would also be all for having the cooldown timer apply per account, rather than letting every single character slot on every single account do this every day.
Here's my justification:
If it takes you 2 minutes to log in, find and kill an NPC, and log out, that's circa 200 million ISK per hour of returns you're getting during those 2 minutes. If you have 2 or 3 accounts, you are strongly incentivized to doing this every single day on all 6, 9... 12? characters. That's the natural course to take when min-maxing, and it's not fun gameplay. It just isn't. How could it be? It's mostly logging in and out and warping, and it's about as boring as gameplay can possibly get outside of watching ice miners cycle.
Now, I'm not totally against this idea. It's fantastic for new players: that's like three hours of training time a day ez. It's also good for older players: having other slots on your accounts, you can give them that bonus sp and dump that sp into basic skills like industrials, scanning, trade, touchplanet, etc. But being strongly incentivized to do this on every single character on your account, every day, from the very beginning, is gonna grow old pretty darn fast.
Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1836
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:16:46 -
[753] - Quote
Iam Widdershins wrote:After thinking about this a couple days, I think I can give some feedback.
This should diminish over time, perhaps at the same rate that skill injectors' effectiveness does. I would also be all for having the cooldown timer apply per account, rather than letting every single character slot on every single account do this every day.
Here's my justification:
If it takes you 2 minutes to log in, find and kill an NPC, and log out, that's circa 200 million ISK per hour of returns you're getting during those 2 minutes. If you have 2 or 3 accounts, you are strongly incentivized to doing this every single day on all 6, 9... 12? characters. That's the natural course to take when min-maxing, and it's not fun gameplay. It just isn't. How could it be? It's mostly logging in and out and warping, and it's about as boring as gameplay can possibly get outside of watching ice miners cycle.
Now, I'm not totally against this idea. It's fantastic for new players: that's like three hours of training time a day ez. It's also good for older players: having other slots on your accounts, you can give them that bonus sp and dump that sp into basic skills like industrials, scanning, trade, touchplanet, etc. But being strongly incentivized to do this on every single character on your account, every day, from the very beginning, is gonna grow old pretty darn fast.
Except CCP isn't thinking of game balance they are just wanting the number of accounts logging in every day to go up
Citadel worm hole tax
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Krevnos
Back Door Burglars The Otherworld
132
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:16:48 -
[754] - Quote
Dror wrote:The first 15 or so pages of this had no decent critique against the idea. What's the issue now?
SP is being "created out of nowhere"? So what? Checked out the retention claims? Ready to imply that SP has nothing to do with retention even though the mechanic keeps getting patched?
It's "forced"? If SP is so super that missing just a little makes players feel awful, how do fresh subs feel?
No, the issue is that many players will feel a need to adopt a certain game style based on what menial tasks CCP has laid out for them on a daily basis, rather than enjoying the freedom of the game. This particularly applies to poorer players who have more to gain by it. Having a series of daily tasks laid out by the developer is not conducive to an enjoyable game experience, rather pushing players who would otherwise take the day off to log in just to shoot a rat. It also impacts on regular players' game time if they feel the need to engage in this nonsense to keep up with everyone else.
i.e. Many players will be performing mundane daily tasks rather than enjoying the freedom of the game. This is Theme Park MMO material.
Nobody is set to gain from this and everyone loses out, either on rewards or on their freedom of choice.
CCP Rise has clearly forgotten what Eve is about since he joined the development team.
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Dani Gallar
University of Caille Gallente Federation
24
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:19:39 -
[755] - Quote
For me the main problem is that there no variety. Instead of having exactly one way of getting the bonus SP (and a way that's far to easy) it would be better if several more complicated options to get bonus SP where implemented. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School
257
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:20:59 -
[756] - Quote
Krevnos wrote:CCP Rise has clearly forgotten what Eve is about since he joined the development team. I doubt he thought this up.
Remember Rise, the safeword is "orthodox". |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1836
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:21:19 -
[757] - Quote
Dani Gallar wrote:For me the main problem is that there no variety. Instead of having exactly one way of getting the bonus SP (and a way that's far to easy) it would be better if several more complicated options to get bonus SP where implemented.
why so instead of needing to do one meaningless task i have to do several
Citadel worm hole tax
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Cristian Ambaek
Ciggy Butt Brains. ChaosTheory.
0
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:26:02 -
[758] - Quote
That sounds like a horrible idea, EVE Online is not WoW.
Now we need small side "quests" to gain xtra daily SP's? NO thank you. |
Big Lynx
5670
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:26:42 -
[759] - Quote
Krevnos wrote:Dror wrote:The first 15 or so pages of this had no decent critique against the idea. What's the issue now?
SP is being "created out of nowhere"? So what? Checked out the retention claims? Ready to imply that SP has nothing to do with retention even though the mechanic keeps getting patched?
It's "forced"? If SP is so super that missing just a little makes players feel awful, how do fresh subs feel? No, the issue is that many players will feel a need to adopt a certain game style based on what menial tasks CCP has laid out for them on a daily basis, rather than enjoying the freedom of the game. This particularly applies to poorer players who have more to gain by it. Having a series of daily tasks laid out by the developer is not conducive to an enjoyable game experience, rather pushing players who would otherwise take the day off to log in just to shoot a rat. It also impacts on regular players' game time if they feel the need to engage in this nonsense to keep up with everyone else. again
Big Lynx wrote: People who are moaning that they "have to" log in everyday to compete with others in this questionable skillpoint-race should immediatly switch of their computers, go out and in a silent moment start to address a question to themselves: "Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?" (indepentently from the question how CCP will assemble this mechanic)
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1838
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:28:37 -
[760] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:Krevnos wrote:Dror wrote:The first 15 or so pages of this had no decent critique against the idea. What's the issue now?
SP is being "created out of nowhere"? So what? Checked out the retention claims? Ready to imply that SP has nothing to do with retention even though the mechanic keeps getting patched?
It's "forced"? If SP is so super that missing just a little makes players feel awful, how do fresh subs feel? No, the issue is that many players will feel a need to adopt a certain game style based on what menial tasks CCP has laid out for them on a daily basis, rather than enjoying the freedom of the game. This particularly applies to poorer players who have more to gain by it. Having a series of daily tasks laid out by the developer is not conducive to an enjoyable game experience, rather pushing players who would otherwise take the day off to log in just to shoot a rat. It also impacts on regular players' game time if they feel the need to engage in this nonsense to keep up with everyone else. again Big Lynx wrote: People who are moaning that they "have to" log in everyday to compete with others in this questionable skillpoint-race should immediatly switch of their computers, go out and in a silent moment start to address a question to themselves: "Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?" (indepentently from the question how CCP will assemble this mechanic)
its not ppl moaning that they have to log in its ppl upset at an idea that is blatant manipulation to get them to log in by making them feel like the missed out if they dont
Citadel worm hole tax
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beakerax
Pator Tech School
257
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:31:26 -
[761] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:"Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?" this is the central design conceit of dailies and other Skinner box "gameplay" |
Dave Stark
7927
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 11:32:53 -
[762] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Big Lynx wrote:"Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?" this is the central design conceit of dailies and other Skinner box "gameplay"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c
for people who have no idea what you're talking about. |
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
120
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:34:34 -
[763] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:People who are moaning that they "have to" log in everyday to compete with others in this questionable skillpoint-race should immediatly switch of their computers, go out and in a silent moment start to address a question to themselves: "Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?" (indepentently from the question how CCP will assemble this mechanic) If this goes in the way the original post says it will, everyone's going to get a slow, painful lesson.
A signature :o
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Big Lynx
5670
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:35:16 -
[764] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Big Lynx wrote:"Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?" this is the central design conceit of dailies and other Skinner box "gameplay" I would agree if ccp replaced skilling over time completely with SP grinding through dailies, weeklies etc. .. That would be the overkill |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1838
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:37:22 -
[765] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:beakerax wrote:Big Lynx wrote:"Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?" this is the central design conceit of dailies and other Skinner box "gameplay" I would agree if ccp replaced skilling over time completely with SP grinding through dailies, weeklies etc. .. That would be the overkill
they dont need to completely replace it with dailies ect for it to be over kill
its a game design that has no place in the player created world of eve
Tell me why do you think this is a good idea other than "its not a bad idea"
Citadel worm hole tax
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Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
127
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:38:10 -
[766] - Quote
We need to remove the "it's fantastic for newbies" aspect from the discussion.
It simply is not.
What is fantastic for newbies is gaining more SP faster, somehow, because EVE is just about the worst game I have ever seen concerning locking away content from new players.
But that does not mean that a particular method of giving nebwies more SP faster is any good. There will be good ways and bad ways of doing that.
And this proposal by CCP is a really dumb way of doing it.
I understand very much the frustration of newbies with the skill queue, and how they will clutch at anything that might deliver some more SP to them. I'm still at that stage myself...
But this desperate craving for SP should not cloud one's judgement concerning the means by which the SP is offered.
If some newbie (or for that matter vet) wants to argue that logging in daily to find a belt rat to pop is their idea of getting engaged with EVE, then fine - that is the discussion we should be having.
But we should not be discussing how it would be good for newbies to get more SP. That's no excuse for introducing this poor mechanism to EVE.
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Dave stark
7928
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:43:08 -
[767] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:beakerax wrote:Big Lynx wrote:"Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?" this is the central design conceit of dailies and other Skinner box "gameplay" I would agree if ccp replaced skilling over time completely with SP grinding through dailies, weeklies etc. .. That would be the overkill
it's like a 15% bonus, that's pretty substantial.
more than 15% if you don't have implants. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1838
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:50:33 -
[768] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:We need to remove the "it's fantastic for newbies" aspect from the discussion.
It simply is not.
What is fantastic for newbies is gaining more SP faster, somehow, because EVE is just about the worst game I have ever seen concerning locking away content from new players.
But that does not mean that a particular method of giving nebwies more SP faster is any good. There will be good ways and bad ways of doing that.
And this proposal by CCP is a really dumb way of doing it.
I understand very much the frustration of newbies with the skill queue, and how they will clutch at anything that might deliver some more SP to them. I'm still at that stage myself...
But this desperate craving for SP should not cloud one's judgement concerning the means by which the SP is offered.
If some newbie (or for that matter vet) wants to argue that logging in daily to find a belt rat to pop is their idea of getting engaged with EVE, then fine - that is the discussion we should be having.
But we should not be discussing how it would be good for newbies to get more SP. That's no excuse for introducing this poor mechanism to EVE.
The best thing to do would be to start players out with the mandatory skills like engineering rather than forcing them to train skills like this
Citadel worm hole tax
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
63
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Posted - 2016.04.10 11:55:32 -
[769] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Dror wrote:The first 15 or so pages of this had no decent critique against the idea. What's the issue now? People who have experienced dailies in other games have made their concerns clear. As for arguments in favour of dailies? So far I've seen "new player" fallacies and posts that apparently support this concept out of spite. Given that Rise's new method of persuasion on these matters is to do nothing, I don't see much reason to effortpost. Dailies from other games don't give the same benefit. Rep is uninteresting. Setting up "VIP Elite" points to cash out for some stats or whatever is as well, but we already have that with SP and real money, so why not get some for basically free? "Not feeling the idea? Don't do it," is valid. If players can't miss a few sessions of free SP, why do they have no say for how little SP newbies have?
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:why are so many ppl defending this hung up on the SP
the SP is not the issue here
the issue is CCP telling you how to play their game
the issue is CCP just seeing you as a log in number
the issue is EVE is a game you can play at your own pace with out ever feeling you need to log in
the issue is making ppl want to log in for such a hollow reason is LAZY and if we reward them for being lazy they will keep being lazy It's A feature, with a single and immediately-completed task (that also happens to improve the SP situation, especially for fresh subs -- which is obviously the real purpose). "SP is no the issue"? It is. Figure out what gets fresh subs to retain (surely with scientific backing, which are plentiful in this post history), then maybe this thread's criticisms have some validity.
So, every character only does the best ISK income method or equivalent? Negative.
Krevnos wrote:No, the issue is that many players will feel a need to adopt a certain game style based on what menial tasks CCP has laid out for them on a daily basis, rather than enjoying the freedom of the game. This particularly applies to poorer players who have more to gain by it. Having a series of daily tasks laid out by the developer is not conducive to an enjoyable game experience, rather pushing players who would otherwise take the day off to log in just to shoot a rat. It also impacts on regular players' game time if they feel the need to engage in this nonsense to keep up with everyone else.
i.e. Many players will be performing mundane daily tasks rather than enjoying the freedom of the game. This is Theme Park MMO material.
Nobody is set to gain from this and everyone loses out, either on rewards or on their freedom of choice.
CCP Rise has clearly forgotten what Eve is about since he joined the development team.
See above for just about every point.
"Play more and get more" is ordinarily the mantra with MMOs. It's perfect, because status should be associated with playing the game or skill, and not paying for it. That all has nothing to do with "theme park" MMO design, as criticized, because it's true for both.
The obvious gain is the benefit of extra SP. If that's non-intriguing, then don't do it. If SP has become such a feature that it's ******* with the community, newbie or vet (and in any manner), it should just go.
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:its not ppl moaning that they have to log in its ppl upset at an idea that is blatant manipulation to get them to log in by making them feel like the missed out if they dont *Logic*
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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beakerax
Pator Tech School
258
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Posted - 2016.04.10 12:00:53 -
[770] - Quote
guys I found the EA exec |
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Dave Stark
7928
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Posted - 2016.04.10 12:03:35 -
[771] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:We need to remove the "it's fantastic for newbies" aspect from the discussion.
It simply is not.
What is fantastic for newbies is gaining more SP faster, somehow, because EVE is just about the worst game I have ever seen concerning locking away content from new players.
But that does not mean that a particular method of giving nebwies more SP faster is any good. There will be good ways and bad ways of doing that.
And this proposal by CCP is a really dumb way of doing it.
I understand very much the frustration of newbies with the skill queue, and how they will clutch at anything that might deliver some more SP to them. I'm still at that stage myself...
But this desperate craving for SP should not cloud one's judgement concerning the means by which the SP is offered.
If some newbie (or for that matter vet) wants to argue that logging in daily to find a belt rat to pop is their idea of getting engaged with EVE, then fine - that is the discussion we should be having.
But we should not be discussing how it would be good for newbies to get more SP. That's no excuse for introducing this poor mechanism to EVE.
The best thing to do would be to start players out with the mandatory skills like engineering rather than forcing them to train skills like this
along with making content people want to log in for, rather than bribing them with SP. lets not get too crazy, though. we're getting daily quests anyway. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1839
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Posted - 2016.04.10 12:06:24 -
[772] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:We need to remove the "it's fantastic for newbies" aspect from the discussion.
It simply is not.
What is fantastic for newbies is gaining more SP faster, somehow, because EVE is just about the worst game I have ever seen concerning locking away content from new players.
But that does not mean that a particular method of giving nebwies more SP faster is any good. There will be good ways and bad ways of doing that.
And this proposal by CCP is a really dumb way of doing it.
I understand very much the frustration of newbies with the skill queue, and how they will clutch at anything that might deliver some more SP to them. I'm still at that stage myself...
But this desperate craving for SP should not cloud one's judgement concerning the means by which the SP is offered.
If some newbie (or for that matter vet) wants to argue that logging in daily to find a belt rat to pop is their idea of getting engaged with EVE, then fine - that is the discussion we should be having.
But we should not be discussing how it would be good for newbies to get more SP. That's no excuse for introducing this poor mechanism to EVE.
The best thing to do would be to start players out with the mandatory skills like engineering rather than forcing them to train skills like this along with making content people want to log in for, rather than bribing them with SP. lets not get too crazy, though. we're getting daily quests anyway.
There is already plenty of that the problem is showing new players how to find it
EDIT
Or hell even some vets don't know how to
Citadel worm hole tax
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
5026
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Posted - 2016.04.10 12:17:03 -
[773] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Tomika wrote:It literally is doing something. At least is more than "doh, only got 20 minutes, won't bother loggin in to EVE since there's nothing I could accomplish in so little time". So you support dailies because they will encourage you to log in when you don't actually have time to play?
They change the definition of "time to play" from ~1 hour to ~20 minutes. That could be useful to me on certain occasions, and to some people also will make sense to make a quickie for 10,000 SP. And in any circunstances it makes PvE more rewarding for the same unfun. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1839
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Posted - 2016.04.10 12:25:55 -
[774] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:beakerax wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Tomika wrote:It literally is doing something. At least is more than "doh, only got 20 minutes, won't bother loggin in to EVE since there's nothing I could accomplish in so little time". So you support dailies because they will encourage you to log in when you don't actually have time to play? They change the definition of "time to play" from ~1 hour to ~20 minutes. That could be useful to me on certain occasions, and to some people also will make sense to make a quickie for 10,000 SP. And in any circunstances it makes PvE more rewarding for the same unfun.
You mean from ~1 hr to -2 minuts
And pve doesn't need to be any more rewarding is already what most ppl do in the game
CCP should not attempt to make any choice in gameplay inherentlybetter than another and they should not give a pair any definitive goal
Citadel worm hole tax
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
64
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Posted - 2016.04.10 12:39:27 -
[775] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:You mean from ~1 hr to -2 minuts
And pve doesn't need to be any more rewarding is already what most ppl do in the game
CCP should not attempt to make any choice in gameplay inherentlybetter than another and they should not give a pair any definitive goal More players logged on is more of a potential fleet. End of discussion.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1839
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Posted - 2016.04.10 12:46:09 -
[776] - Quote
Dror wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:You mean from ~1 hr to -2 minuts
And pve doesn't need to be any more rewarding is already what most ppl do in the game
CCP should not attempt to make any choice in gameplay inherentlybetter than another and they should not give a pair any definitive goal More players logged on is more of a potential fleet. End of discussion.
OMG you're right how could I have been so blind that really is all that matters
Well screw dailies what will really get ppl online is a Yulia arena
Citadel worm hole tax
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2639
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Posted - 2016.04.10 12:48:33 -
[777] - Quote
Dror wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:You mean from ~1 hr to -2 minuts
And pve doesn't need to be any more rewarding is already what most ppl do in the game
CCP should not attempt to make any choice in gameplay inherentlybetter than another and they should not give a pair any definitive goal More players logged on is more of a potential fleet. End of discussion.
yeah sure because nobody really cares about a fleet "i just logged on to do my daily then going out, sorry"
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1839
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Posted - 2016.04.10 12:51:21 -
[778] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Dror wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:You mean from ~1 hr to -2 minuts
And pve doesn't need to be any more rewarding is already what most ppl do in the game
CCP should not attempt to make any choice in gameplay inherentlybetter than another and they should not give a pair any definitive goal More players logged on is more of a potential fleet. End of discussion. yeah sure because nobody really cares about a fleet "i just logged on to do my daily then going out, sorry"
What this never happens in any other game with dailies?
Citadel worm hole tax
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Dave Stark
7928
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Posted - 2016.04.10 12:54:31 -
[779] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dror wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:You mean from ~1 hr to -2 minuts
And pve doesn't need to be any more rewarding is already what most ppl do in the game
CCP should not attempt to make any choice in gameplay inherentlybetter than another and they should not give a pair any definitive goal More players logged on is more of a potential fleet. End of discussion. yeah sure because nobody really cares about a fleet "i just logged on to do my daily then going out, sorry" What this never happens in any other game with dailies?
no, absolutely not. WoW still has 10m subscribers. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2639
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Posted - 2016.04.10 12:55:19 -
[780] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dror wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:You mean from ~1 hr to -2 minuts
And pve doesn't need to be any more rewarding is already what most ppl do in the game
CCP should not attempt to make any choice in gameplay inherentlybetter than another and they should not give a pair any definitive goal More players logged on is more of a potential fleet. End of discussion. yeah sure because nobody really cares about a fleet "i just logged on to do my daily then going out, sorry" What this never happens in any other game with dailies?
nah not really because the bots have already done the dailies right after downtime
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