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Titans are destroying the game. Remove the doomsday NOW.

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Kitoba Minmatar Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:17:00 - [661] 666!
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:20:00 - [662] Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 11/05/2008 23:22:07 Originally by: Kitoba Let recharge time grow exponentially if the dd is fired in rapid succession. Alternatively, make the dd operate by igniting everything of vacuum that isn't vacuum, which of course depletes it further until additional dd's just make no significant damage whatsoever. Very effectively caps its usage. Edit: The implementation of the second idea is pure hell. I actually thought the second idea was good. Make the DD cause some "taint" to the area, so the damage can't be inflicted repeatedly. I was actually thinking of some sort of limit on how many Titans could be in the same grid at once, what with engine mechanics or DD emissions or handicapped parking... whatever. I thought DD had a 1 hour cooldown. The point of having 8 was so you could set several off without the wait time.
Irn Bruce	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:22:00 - [663] I posted this in the other thread, but I suppose it belongs here. And sorry if it's been brought up before, but I can't be bothered reading 23 pages. How about simply making titans very vulnerable to doomsday blasts? They wouldn't be hit by their own blast, but if multiple titans were present, they would hurt each other really badly.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:24:00 - [664] Don't attack him. Attack his arguments. Of which they are many flaws. To start with your argument ignores tactical considerations, ignores scale, ignores ranges, ignores warping, ignores dictors, ignores cov-ops, and simply ignores the fact that CCP has said that this is not a game where skillpoints or money trump all and has enshrined that in their design manifesto for the game Not titans online, not motherships online, not capitals online, not dreadnoughts online. But Eve online, where the lowliest ship can be a threat to the highest. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:26:00 - [665] Originally by: Irn Bruce I posted this in the other thread, but I suppose it belongs here. And sorry if it's been brought up before, but I can't be bothered reading 23 pages. How about simply making titans very vulnerable to doomsday blasts? They wouldn't be hit by their own blast, but if multiple titans were present, they would hurt each other really badly. titans have like 4-8m EHP. at 70k damage per DD it would take 50 -> 100 DD's to take one down. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Irn Bruce	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:30:00 - [666] Yea, 4-8m EHP, but only about 1mil HP. If you removed their resists against doomsday, then they would sting considerably more. Especially if already under attack. Or even if DD automatically damaged a Titan's structure or something.
Kitoba Minmatar Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:43:00 - [667] Originally by: Marcus Gideon Originally by: Kitoba Let recharge time grow exponentially if the dd is fired in rapid succession. Alternatively, make the dd operate by igniting everything of vacuum that isn't vacuum, which of course depletes it further until additional dd's just make no significant damage whatsoever. Very effectively caps its usage. Edit: The implementation of the second idea is pure hell. I actually thought the second idea was good. It's doable, each dd shot would spawn a sphere that reduces the damage taken by ships inside it, deteriorate over time, and of course overlap with others. You should always have at least two or three ideas about how to go on to implement something before deciding whether it's hell or not. But that was actually not what I wanted to say, the point is that both approaches are almost completely equivalent from the game design pov: The sphere model allows for the same damage to be dealt as now iff the shots are spaced out, but tactical considerations should make both almost completely overlap.
HarderThisTime	Posted - 2008.05.12 02:53:00 - [668] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Removing the doomsday device is just stupid. Yes, you still have the jump bridge and stuff, but that's just pathetic for such an obscenely expensive ship. Dude, remove the DDD and make titans cost 1 trit and 30 seconds to build, and it'd still be more balanced than the current state. How sick is that?
Jimmy Cliff Dawning Industries	Posted - 2008.05.12 08:10:00 - [669] If you have problems fighting a Titan, bring in your own Titan! You can't fight bombs with bb-guns! You need weapons of similar sizes.
Daraasi Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.12 09:39:00 - [670] Honestly, 23 pages is way too many pages to read so the probability of this having been said 100 times before approaches 100%. If you're worried about a fleet of titans being uncounterable then stop worrying about the weapons the gang uses and simple stop it forming in the first place. Say that a titans mass is so huge, they cant be jumped within a certain distance of each other, an AU or something. That way Titans become lone behemoths again. It wouldnt be that hard to code i shouldn't imagine. It makes a fuzzy sort of physical sense. It allows "smaller" or less titan orientated alliances to vie for space owned by formiddable advirseries without negating the vlaue of the investment put into the titan. Any way that affects the individual effectiveness of a titan unfairly hurts those that have put such large investments into them and may well never have engaged in sup-cap blobs. And anything that adds a unit to counter or survive the DD is simply creating a vast new problem to attempt to cover up an old one introducing an eve cane toad. Jovia Delenda Est.

Superstar Phoenix Superstar Phoenix Corp	Posted - 2008.05.13 11:24:00 - [671] Originally by: Goumindong Not titans online, not motherships online, not capitals online, not dreadnoughts online. But Eve online, where the lowliest ship can be a threat to the highest. It's not frig online, cruiser online or T1 online either.
TypoNinja Caldari Void Angels Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.14 19:52:00 - [672] Originally by: Goumindong Not titans online, not motherships online, not capitals online, not dreadnoughts online. But Eve online, where the lowliest ship can be a threat to the highest. Threat, yes. the question is how much of a threat? Im 5'11 and weight about 125 lbs, in a fist fight I'm a threat to a 250 professional boxer. Not much of a threat, but a threat. Threat does not equate to 'reasonable chance I can take you' My kestral is a threat to a hyperion, but I'd run out of ammo before I could break his tank all by my self. So while I'm a threat, expecting I could actually defeat said target is stretching it. I'd need to invest far more hardware to expect any real chance of destroying that target. While it is nice that in eve smaller ships can almost always find a use even in large fights, real effectiveness of those ships drops off significantly when your opponent outclasses you by such a huge margin. And while it would be nice to think that CCP meant it when they said that 'that this is not a game where skill points or money trump all and has enshrined that in their design manifesto for the game'. The reality is that older players have an advantage over new ones, and expecting otherwise is foolish and naive, there has to be a reward for players who have invested scads of time and in game money. And that reward is bigger and stronger ships and more proficiency with those ships. They have LIMITED that advantage so that new players can still compete with older ones, the divide is not so wide as in say for example WoW, where someone with T6 gear will mop the floor with someone without. But there is still a divide and always will be. More money and better gear won't let you automatically win, but it sure helps to be able to field more ships, and better ships that your opponent can.
Kuroshiro	Posted - 2008.05.14 23:27:00 - [673] Originally by: Marcus Gideon But I have to think, among other strategies... what works for one can work for another. Build your own squadron of Titans, and bring them into the fray before they do. Do unto others, and so forth. This is exactly what every large 0.0 alliance is doing. And that's great and all, but it also means that subcapital ships are becoming worthless for holding sov at a pretty astonishing rate. Like you might as well not have them. One thing that drew many of us to EVE initially was the fact that you don't have to have a 'high level character' to participate in the end game. If you start telling people that they have to grind a(nother) year's worth of skills and shell out 2-3bn isk just to participate in the sov warfare that dictates their alliance's fate, most people are probably just going to quit. Depending on your views of the people doing the quitting, you may consider this a good thing, but it's almost certainly not good for EVE Online as a whole.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.15 00:55:00 - [674] Originally by: Jimmy Cliff If you have problems fighting a Titan, bring in your own Titan! You can't fight bombs with bb-guns! You need weapons of similar sizes. Titans don't fight Titans. Titans fight anything not a capital ship. If both sides have multiple Titans you may as well tell your support fleet to log off because they're not going to do anything except get blasted by multiple doomsdays. The point is that subcapitals are being made worthless under the current capital ship mechanics. Everything from frigates to T2-fitted Battleships are affected by this. Everything from interceptors to faction-fitted command ships is affected by this. ANYONE WHO DOESN'T FLY A CAPITAL IS AFFECTED BY THIS. How much clearer can I make it?
Endrain	Posted - 2008.05.15 02:46:00 - [675] titan= gun anything else= knife Never bring a knife to a gun fight get the idea
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.15 04:43:00 - [676] Originally by: TypoNinja Threat, yes. the question is how much of a threat? Im 5'11 and weight about 125 lbs, in a fist fight I'm a threat to a 250 professional boxer. Not much of a threat, but a threat. Threat does not equate to 'reasonable chance I can take you' Do you realize that you committed the same fallacy that you accused me of committing in this post?[and one i was pointing out either in the quoted post or before hand] No one is saying they should not have an advantage they are saying the advantage they have is too great. Vote Goumindong for CSM
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.15 06:07:00 - [677] Originally by: Endrain titan= gun anything else= knife Never bring a knife to a gun fight get the idea This is a video game. Let that sink in for a little bit.
Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.17 03:31:00 - [678] Boohooo the Titan DD'd my frigate fleet NERF IT!! Booohooo the Carrier couldn't be destroyed by our noob ships NERF IT!! Boohooo the Dread blew our pos up NERF IT!! Booohooo the Battleship smartbombed our ships NERF BOTH!! Boohoo the Commandshio gave bonuses to everything so we got wasted by superiour tactics NERF EVERYTHING THAT COULD POSSIBLY HAVE TO DO WITH COMMAND SHIPS!! Booohooo Battlecruisers have replaced commandships NERF THEM TOO!! Boohoo damned Cruisers just pwned us because of superiour numbers NERF THEM!! Booohooo we lost the war because we got frigate blobbed NERF FRIGATES AND BLOBS!! Boohoo we didn't get any Pod kills because they warped off NERF POD WARP!! Booohooo the POD selfdestructed REMOVE THAT TOO!! Boohoo we can't get our Wartargets because they use their address books NERF IT!! Booohooo people are talking in local NERF LOCAL!! Boohoo I'm a whiner who just wants to whine about everything NERF MY FORUM ACCESS AND PERMA MUTE ME!! You whiners need to shut up it's unbelievable how much you people can whine about nothing. You lot will never stop the nerf whine untill there's no more eve left and then you can all sit back satisfied that you destroyed a game simply because you could. Cap ship online for the lose? Whiners like you lot for the lose. I hate every single one of you. Nerf this, nerf that just because you couldn't tank Titans, carriers, dreads, battleships, battlecruisers, cruisers, frigates, noob ships and pods. If you don't want any cap ship fleets remove cap ships but then why have their BPO's if they weren't supposed to be built? Logic in this thread = 0 Stupidity = overdose I have been DD'd several times and they have been nerfed more than enough. The only nerf required now is for you lot to either leave EVE or get a whine ban. Cry a river, build a bridge and jump off it en mass so you stop spamming forums with nonsense like this. Kthx STFU and leave the game.
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.17 04:28:00 - [679] ignores the angry ranting Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Endrain titan= gun anything else= knife Never bring a knife to a gun fight get the idea This is a video game. Let that sink in for a little bit. The plain and simple truth is, Eve isn't a video game anymore. It's become a futuristic life simulation. And in emulating life, we find we don't always wind up in the situations we hoped for. However they did it, and whoever let them do it, there are groups out there with a rediculous amount of firepower on their side. I agree 100% with the notion that EIGHT (8) Titans are too many to face at once. But they are there, and for the time being there is no rule against how much firepower can be brought to a fight. So crying "nerf" will not save you. Now if CCP wants to find some way to limit the number of ships on each side of the conflict, that might solve something. Consider that ships have to be Fleeted to get bonuses, and thus are associated together by that fleet. So limit how many in a fleet can be in the same grid at once. Sure, people can make smaller fleets to get around it. But they aren't getting the same bonuses they would if they were all together. Maybe something like this could keep from having tons of Titans, Capitals, and every other form of ship all on site at once. It would cut down on lag from too much traffic, and it would decrease the chances your entire alliance gets wiped out at once. Make players split their forces onto several fronts. A blob fighting here, another fighting several AU away. Or even another system over, just to cut down on the total overkill. Just a thought.
Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.17 04:34:00 - [680] Edited by: Tatoed Goat on 17/05/2008 04:35:58 Originally by: Marcus Gideon ignores the angry ranting Originally by: HydroSan Originally by: Endrain titan= gun anything else= knife Never bring a knife to a gun fight get the idea This is a video game. Let that sink in for a little bit. The plain and simple truth is, Eve isn't a video game anymore. It's become a futuristic life simulation. And in emulating life, we find we don't always wind up in the situations we hoped for. However they did it, and whoever let them do it, there are groups out there with a rediculous amount of firepower on their side. I agree 100% with the notion that EIGHT (8) Titans are too many to face at once. But they are there, and for the time being there is no rule against how much firepower can be brought to a fight. So crying "nerf" will not save you. Now if CCP wants to find some way to limit the number of ships on each side of the conflict, that might solve something. Consider that ships have to be Fleeted to get bonuses, and thus are associated together by that fleet. So limit how many in a fleet can be in the same grid at once. Sure, people can make smaller fleets to get around it. But they aren't getting the same bonuses they would if they were all together. Maybe something like this could keep from having tons of Titans, Capitals, and every other form of ship all on site at once. It would cut down on lag from too much traffic, and it would decrease the chances your entire alliance gets wiped out at once. Make players split their forces onto several fronts. A blob fighting here, another fighting several AU away. Or even another system over, just to cut down on the total overkill. Just a thought. I fully agree with the poster here. For example each side can bring a maximum of 1 Titan 2 Carriers 2 Dreads 50 Battleships 10 Command Ships 100 Frigates 0 Pods 1 Node Crash Fair fight, especially at pos sieges in which the POS will always win. before this gets implemented everyone would go for a massive landgrab and get as much space as they can because once entrenched it can't be taken from them anyway unless their logistics has been disrupted but concidering the existence of Jump Freighters and the many ways this can be avoided I don't know if I should laugh or not as this will make 0 warfare pointless. Anyway the side with the least lag wins so what's difference will this make? I do, however, agree that this is NOT a video game if it was you goons wouldn't complain so much about things you can't destroy and wars you can't win.

Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.17 04:39:00 - [681] Originally by: Goumindong Not titans online, not motherships online, not capitals online, not dreadnoughts online. But Eve online, where the lowliest ship can be a threat to the highest. And this sums up the entire goon argument. Noob frigates should be able to destroy everything. We are goons and we want Noob Frigate Online, not EVE Online and we will whine untill we get it!
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.17 04:49:00 - [682] Originally by: Tatoed Goat For example each side can bring a maximum of 1 Titan 2 Carriers 2 Dreads 50 Battleships 10 Command Ships 100 Frigates 0 Pods 1 Node Crash Fair fight, especially at pos sieges in which the POS will always win. before this gets implemented everyone would go for a massive landgrab and get as much space as they can because once entrenched it can't be taken from them anyway unless their logistics has been disrupted but concidering the existence of Jump Freighters and the many ways this can be avoided I don't know if I should laugh or not as this will make 0 warfare pointless. Anyway the side with the least lag wins so what's difference will this make? While your sarcasm amuses me... Why not assign yet another behind-the-scenes value to ships. One that totals into the Fleet limit value. For instance, frigates count as 1 while Titans count as 50 (just making up numbers now). If you want blob warfare, then your chart above seems pretty balanced IMO. If you want to take down a relatively unguarded POS, then replace a large amount of the frigates with more Dreads. The final count would still total the same, less ships but better firepower for the purpose at hand.
Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.17 04:57:00 - [683] Edited by: Tatoed Goat on 17/05/2008 05:00:47 Originally by: Marcus Gideon While your sarcasm amuses me... Why not assign yet another behind-the-scenes value to ships. One that totals into the Fleet limit value. For instance, frigates count as 1 while Titans count as 50 (just making up numbers now). If you want blob warfare, then your chart above seems pretty balanced IMO. If you want to take down a relatively unguarded POS, then replace a large amount of the frigates with more Dreads. The final count would still total the same, less ships but better firepower for the purpose at hand. This makes everything but a cap ship irrelevant in fleet battles which means no more tactics, no more battleship blobs but cap ship blobs and while I love cap ships and would rather leave EVE (including all of my friends) than see caps getting goon'd I agree that pure cap ship blobs are no good. And you say unguarded POS, you know of any alliance who leaves their poses unguarded when attacked? If you do please let me know as I'll definitely go siege their poses and take their space while they are too lazy to guard them.
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.17 05:06:00 - [684] Originally by: Tatoed Goat This makes everything but a cap ship irrelevant in fleet battles which means no more tactics, no more battleship blobs but cap ship blobs and while I love cap ships and would rather leave EVE (including all of my friends) than see caps getting goon'd I agree that pure cap ship blobs are no good. And you say unguarded POS, you know of any alliance who leaves their poses unguarded when attacked? If you do please let me know as I'll definitely go siege their poses and take their space while they are too lazy to guard them. I think you missed the part where, the larger the ship the more it counts against the grid limit. So if you want to call a swarm of frigates blotting out the skies, and a handful of capitals scattered about, both a "blob". The idea is, you know you can only bring so many ships. So you have to plan how many of what class to bring, depending on what you might face. Group A brings their 8 Titans, and Group B brings 5 million frigates. Or Group A brings several Titans and Capitals, and Group B brings a mix of Dreads and BS.
Sir Substance	Posted - 2008.05.17 05:11:00 - [685] you know, ignoring this whole thread, it would seem to me that the solution to this is that you cant fire more then one doomsday per system per cycle time. i.e (i think the cycle time for a DD is 10 mins) if you have 7 titans in the system, one of them can fire the DD every 10 mins, or each of them can take a turn firing it, and it will take 70 mins for all of them to have a turn. but you cant fire off 2 within 10 mins of each other.
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.05.17 05:17:00 - [686] That's the silliest thing I've ever heard... I mean, what's the point in bringing 8 Titans, if they have to wait their turn. They'd all be better off using 1 Titan, and gearing it to be Fleet support instead of several used for Fleet Obliteration. /sarcasm =D The DD limit was touched on before, but no one liked that idea and it was lost in the pages of the thread. The fight has pressed on as to why everyones ideas are better than anyone elses... to no avail.
Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.17 05:28:00 - [687] Originally by: Sir Substance you know, ignoring this whole thread, it would seem to me that the solution to this is that you cant fire more then one doomsday per system per cycle time. i.e (i think the cycle time for a DD is 10 mins) if you have 7 titans in the system, one of them can fire the DD every 10 mins, or each of them can take a turn firing it, and it will take 70 mins for all of them to have a turn. but you cant fire off 2 within 10 mins of each other. Now this isn't a bad idea.
Raelina Peacecraft	Posted - 2008.05.17 06:39:00 - [688] Originally by: FERRET MAN Edited by: FERRET MAN on 30/03/2008 21:05:20 Nothing can counter eight Titans. Sure you can: form a fleet with nine Titans.
Kitoba Minmatar Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.05.17 10:15:00 - [689] So do you all agree on neither nerfing the DD or Titan nor letting everything as it is, but capping it in some way or the other besides skills/isk, or do I need to mediate?
Tatoed Goat	Posted - 2008.05.17 12:20:00 - [690] Originally by: Kitoba So do you all agree on neither nerfing the DD or Titan nor letting everything as it is, but capping it in some way or the other besides skills/isk, or do I need to mediate? Yep you could mediate between the goons and the people who mimick their noob frigate nonsense and the exit because other than that I see no problem with Titans Goons on EVE: Originally by: Goumindong [i]Not titans online, not motherships online, not capitals online, not dreadnoughts online. But Eve online, where the lowliest ship can be a threat to the highest.[/



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