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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 15 post(s)
Ituralde Stimulus	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:26:00 - [1411] Originally by: Sentinel Eeex Pretty much the most ****ed post in the whole thread. Tell me - did Burn Eden need nano ships in order to be successful in small gang warfare? Were they able to fight (and win) outnumbered? I find it amusing that nanos think their nanoships were "tactics". It was just the easiest (and least risky) way to achieve a goal - lose as little as possible. No ***ing "tactics" or "strategy". And now you're crying. It probably means that CCP did the right thing. We'll see... Care to explain why nanos need a nerf and how they confer an unfair advantage in PVP? _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
Markas Crais House of Dying Laggers	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:26:00 - [1412] Originally by: Sentinel Eeex Originally by: XxAngelxX I think we all know which group of the groups of people who are for and against this change are the ones with strategies, tactics and experience in PVP. Old school players who think this will put eve back the way it was, you are the ones not adapting, using tactics and strategies. You will continue to be dissapointed. Part time PVPers - the ones who gang up, warp to a gate, get picked off by nanos and post in eve general - you will be happy until a new strategy that works against your massive T1 blobs with capital support and titans and jump bridge capabilities, then you will start whining again. CCP Dionwhatever (sorry I don't care what you said enough to read your name) thanks for the headsup that our knee jerk reaction, while making more sense than your dear co-workers dev blog in several points which were addressed already in this thread, is going to be taken with a pinch of salt. Our knee jerk reaction is no where near in comparison to your 5 hour knee jerk blanket changes. The nano tactic evolved due to other changes your esteemed colleagues made to the game (capital ships, cyno jammers etc), different strategies developed from it and many, many hours of PVP went into becoming good at it. If the whiners spent the same amount of time PVPing then they'd be killing nano'd ships. Blanket changes sending waves through the entire PVP / 0.0 / Lowsec area of the game is not what is needed to combat people who spend a lot of isk on their speed ships. Bring poly stats down to be inline with T2 Nanos, decrease drops on faction microwarp drives and speed mods in the loot tables, and you have a fix. Pretty much the most ****ed post in the whole thread. Tell me - did Burn Eden need nano ships in order to be successful in small gang warfare? Were they able to fight (and win) outnumbered? I find it amusing that nanos think their nanoships were "tactics". It was just the easiest (and least risky) way to achieve a goal - lose as little as possible. No ***ing "tactics" or "strategy". And now you're crying. It probably means that CCP did the right thing. We'll see... So does that mean blobbing is "tactics"? Case in point this post coming from a Goon saying nanos isn't a strategy.
Howen	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:26:00 - [1413] in my opinion there was no problem with speed.Bosting warp scramber is good idea more options with pvp. P. S. you can achive same effect in ballance just increasing tracking speed and speed/explosion velocity with missles.
Escobar Noreaga Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:30:00 - [1414] I love flying nano ships TBO, but even i must admit that im looking forward to the retuning of the game. Doesnt really bother me much since i can fly every ship t1 and t2 up to and including battleships of everyrace, i will definatly be spending some time thinking up some new out of the box fittings. Eve was getting a tad stale imho and this looks like a much needed breath of fresh air. Quote: null
Thorradin State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:32:00 - [1415] Originally by: Kery Syander Originally by: Malachon Draco Missiles have an advantage that they never miss if an enemy is close enough/going slow enough. Additionally, a missile user doesn't need to worry about transversals or his own speed. That he then can't hit other ships going really fast, well I'd call it a form of balance. How are we gonna compensate gun users for the fact their guns don't always hit compared to missile users? this. unfortunately people seem to forget this all the time. Tell you what, fly 4km/s at a missile ship, then fly 4km/s at a gunboat, straight line both times. You get back to me on which one blows your inty out of the sky and which one is still only doing 0.1 damage. Missiles have a higher threshold to work with, but it goes purely by target speed and nothing else when checking (and sig ofcourse).
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:33:00 - [1416] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Kerfira My post What point are they if they can't go 4kms? Lots of these ships are obviously built for speed. In terms of cost/efficiency, they need to be able to do this or they will be obsolete compared to the tier 2 BCs and battleships. If they only do 2kms, they have no chance of getting away. And then a BS or a BC is capable of providing pretty much an equal amount of firepower at a much lower cost. HACs in PvP are more and more in the nano-niche. Like Shamis said, the alternative for this is RR gangs, with the main difference that a RR gang is much more vulnerable to blobbing. If HACs can't be nanoed properly, they are pretty much useless in terms of 0.0 warfare, with the exception of them being support for a BS sniperfleet. I've flown HAC's now for almost 2 years in 0.0. I don't think I've EVER had one that could go above 1600 m/s. I've managed quite well without it though. Getting loads of kills, and not loosing many ships. HAC's (even non-nano) are damn good for roaming, decent for fleet support. BC's (tier-2) are damn good for fleet support, not so good for roaming. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses, which is how it should be (IMHO). That being said, I don't really think anyone from the playerbase (yes, me included) can really be trusted to present an objective picture. We all have ships/fits we like, and ships/fits we don't like, and most people can't distance themselves completely from that. I especially notice a similarity between this issue and when war-dec's were nerfed. With the war-dec's, one alliance had been predominant in (ab)using it in ways not intended, and they were the loudest complainers. Most others agreed with the changes. Very similar to this issue (mentioning no names, but I think we all know who they are)..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Eviless	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:33:00 - [1417] Originally by: Trojanman190 I dont understand why CCP's answer to EVERYTHING is to nerf it. Thats so ****ing backwards and depressing. Why do they constantly wish to move backwards instead of ADDING and BOOSTING things. You know... moving forwards. Nerfs nanos by BOOSTING something else. GROW A PAIR. Example of Nano Tears.
Malena Panic Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:33:00 - [1418] Originally by: Ituralde Since 7.5km is a deimos' sweet spot... Because ships immediately stop dead when they are scrambled and webbed. ...
Kyoko Sakoda Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:34:00 - [1419] Originally by: Ituralde Since 7.5km is a deimos' sweet spot... 7.5km is not great but it isn't bad, plus you seem to be forgetting there will be inertia carrying the Deimos into optimal. Just don't plan to take on anything that's naturally faster than you unless it's multiple-webbed. You shouldn't be able to, anyway. Ghost Festival is recruiting.
Sykes Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:34:00 - [1420] Well, I think that if guerilla warfare is still possible, we'll find a way to do it. Star Fraction is all about tactical innovation after all. It'd be nice though to understand precisely how CCP plan to validate that it still works, as per their noble aspirations.
Lady Rania Minmatar The Movement	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:35:00 - [1421] 43.3m minmatar spec char. Hmm wonder how long it would take me to get this char to fly Caldari as good as it does minmatar. Because you just doing the same to minmatar as you did to Amarr pretty mutch... How about fixing lagg instead and your hardware. Or put grown ups at the table instead of 4 kids for 5 hours... If I just shot you, someone payed a shitload of money to have you shot..
Mioelnir Minmatar Meltd0wn Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:35:00 - [1422] Dear CCP Nozh, how can it be, that just a few months ago, you and your colleges from the balancing department brought us scripts because you always felt that modules that give two bonuses are too strong, now present us a warp scrambler that still keeps its 2 points of scrambling AND deactivates MWDs? ++++++++++++++ Dear CCP Dionysus, how can you in this very topic claim that this change is a nerf to ships that use non-stacking bonuses from manyfold sources, when instead of penalizing these massive amounts of items all affecting the attribute group, you nerf the entire range of items on an individual basis, without being ashamed of your self? Then propose the usage of boosters to get better speed, when your very own proposal switches x-instinct from speed to signature radius reduction, and then call an example with high grade snakes a stock setup without using fancy modules. ++++++++++++++ Honestly, this reminds me of Nozh' hour of glory when he "rebalanced" shield resistance amplifiers via excel, presenting blatant ignorance and fundamental lack of understanding of the flavour the races in New Eden were given by the original design team. The statement that you need to closely monitor the ships that have MWD/web bonuses on Sisi once these changes are made is even funnier. When you nerf 1/2 to 3/4s of a ship's bonuses and decrease its speed which it had instead of a tank, you shouldn't really need to closely monitor it to know that it will be negatively affected. Big time. This at least should be plain obvious to even you. And out of curiousity, did a vagabond pilot during your in-house testing manage to kill anything that wasn't frigate sized? And if he did, was it by accident or did he use a 1600mm Rolled Tungsten plate setup - on the t2 cruiser that is supposed to be the fastest of all. Was there more than the fluke chance of success against anything t2? We Matari already have a HAC that is only useful against smaller targets (Muninn), we do not need another one. And how are gangs supposed to keep their t2 interceptor tacklers alive now? For turret ships, yes this is easy, a gangmate tracking disrupting the target. For drones it is a bit harder, as ceptors lack the DPS to rid themselves from Warrior IIs before they get killed. But for missile ships? Defender missiles do only work on missiles that are shot on you, missiles by design NEVER MISS, and the interceptor absolutely cannot outrun them anymore. I am obviously overseeing either a counter you had in mind of look into a design flaw the size of barn doors. Thank you.
Thorradin State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:35:00 - [1423] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 25/07/2008 20:59:28 Originally by: Kery Syander Originally by: Malachon Draco Missiles have an advantage that they never miss if an enemy is close enough/going slow enough. Additionally, a missile user doesn't need to worry about transversals or his own speed. That he then can't hit other ships going really fast, well I'd call it a form of balance. How are we gonna compensate gun users for the fact their guns don't always hit compared to missile users? this. unfortunately people seem to forget this all the time. Those missile wrecking shots are awesome btw. And how often do turrets miss if the target is in range and going slow enough? Honestly, that is a terrible arguement. Yes the wrecking hits are great. Allthough those barely scratching hits with missiles are annoying. Luckily the Excellent hits from missiles happen a lot more often, especially against bigger targets, effectively increasing our DPS average.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:35:00 - [1424] Originally by: Thorradin Originally by: Kery Syander Originally by: Malachon Draco Missiles have an advantage that they never miss if an enemy is close enough/going slow enough. Additionally, a missile user doesn't need to worry about transversals or his own speed. That he then can't hit other ships going really fast, well I'd call it a form of balance. How are we gonna compensate gun users for the fact their guns don't always hit compared to missile users? this. unfortunately people seem to forget this all the time. Tell you what, fly 4km/s at a missile ship, then fly 4km/s at a gunboat, straight line both times. You get back to me on which one blows your inty out of the sky and which one is still only doing 0.1 damage. Missiles have a higher threshold to work with, but it goes purely by target speed and nothing else when checking (and sig ofcourse). And then try it with an inty circling your ship at 1km range while strafing you with his ACs. Guns won't hit due to the tracking, but missiles will when a ceptor is close because he needs to reduce speed to keep a small orbit. Missiles are great at short range and slower speeds, guns are better at idiots who fly at you with an MWD in a straight line. Any decent inty pilot will keep his transversal up vs a gunboat. Its called a trade-off.
Ituralde Stimulus	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:36:00 - [1425] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Kerfira My post What point are they if they can't go 4kms? Lots of these ships are obviously built for speed. In terms of cost/efficiency, they need to be able to do this or they will be obsolete compared to the tier 2 BCs and battleships. If they only do 2kms, they have no chance of getting away. And then a BS or a BC is capable of providing pretty much an equal amount of firepower at a much lower cost. HACs in PvP are more and more in the nano-niche. Like Shamis said, the alternative for this is RR gangs, with the main difference that a RR gang is much more vulnerable to blobbing. If HACs can't be nanoed properly, they are pretty much useless in terms of 0.0 warfare, with the exception of them being support for a BS sniperfleet. I've flown HAC's now for almost 2 years in 0.0. I don't think I've EVER had one that could go above 1600 m/s. I've managed quite well without it though. Getting loads of kills, and not loosing many ships. HAC's (even non-nano) are damn good for roaming, decent for fleet support. BC's (tier-2) are damn good for fleet support, not so good for roaming. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses, which is how it should be (IMHO). That being said, I don't really think anyone from the playerbase (yes, me included) can really be trusted to present an objective picture. We all have ships/fits we like, and ships/fits we don't like, and most people can't distance themselves completely from that. I especially notice a similarity between this issue and when war-dec's were nerfed. With the war-dec's, one alliance had been predominant in (ab)using it in ways not intended, and they were the loudest complainers. Most others agreed with the changes. Very similar to this issue (mentioning no names, but I think we all know who they are)..... Just because there is an alternative, doesn't mean you should nerf speed-based combat. Nerf it if its overpowered. Pray tell, how is it overpowered? _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:36:00 - [1426] Originally by: Korinn Don't worry, I've unanchored all my poses in fountain and I'm cancelling my subscription as we speak Can I have your stuff?
Aya The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:38:00 - [1427] I see 2 good things coming from this nerf if it goes through 1. The people who whined about nanos will still get their asses kicked by the 04-05 people and realize its not the nano but the fact that they suck at this game which is causing them to die. 2. Hydra and Daisho will undock (instead of hiding in their stations)
Nemesor Gallente Stimulus	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:38:00 - [1428] Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda Originally by: Ituralde Since 7.5km is a deimos' sweet spot... 7.5km is not great but it isn't bad, plus you seem to be forgetting there will be inertia carrying the Deimos into optimal. Just don't plan to take on anything that's naturally faster than you unless it's multiple-webbed. You shouldn't be able to, anyway. You are assuming that it is your target that is scramming you. Fact is, your target can be flying with a Noob ship along side of him. A noob ship capable of shutting off your MWD... then webbing you. Yes... you can kill the frigate after you LOCK HIM... but now you have to wait for your reactivation time on your MWD to reset... THEN you have to motor toward your target again. All the while taking fire from your opponent... so even when you DO get into range, you have already been pounded on for enough time to render the fight effectively over.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:39:00 - [1429] Originally by: Korinn Don't worry, I've unanchored all my poses in fountain and I'm cancelling my subscription as we speak If you're quitting, why did you bother un-anchoring your POS? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:41:00 - [1430] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Kerfira My post What point are they if they can't go 4kms? Lots of these ships are obviously built for speed. In terms of cost/efficiency, they need to be able to do this or they will be obsolete compared to the tier 2 BCs and battleships. If they only do 2kms, they have no chance of getting away. And then a BS or a BC is capable of providing pretty much an equal amount of firepower at a much lower cost. HACs in PvP are more and more in the nano-niche. Like Shamis said, the alternative for this is RR gangs, with the main difference that a RR gang is much more vulnerable to blobbing. If HACs can't be nanoed properly, they are pretty much useless in terms of 0.0 warfare, with the exception of them being support for a BS sniperfleet. I've flown HAC's now for almost 2 years in 0.0. I don't think I've EVER had one that could go above 1600 m/s. I've managed quite well without it though. Getting loads of kills, and not loosing many ships. HAC's (even non-nano) are damn good for roaming, decent for fleet support. BC's (tier-2) are damn good for fleet support, not so good for roaming. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses, which is how it should be (IMHO). That being said, I don't really think anyone from the playerbase (yes, me included) can really be trusted to present an objective picture. We all have ships/fits we like, and ships/fits we don't like, and most people can't distance themselves completely from that. I especially notice a similarity between this issue and when war-dec's were nerfed. With the war-dec's, one alliance had been predominant in (ab)using it in ways not intended, and they were the loudest complainers. Most others agreed with the changes. Very similar to this issue (mentioning no names, but I think we all know who they are)..... The problem is, that just like with the wardec nerf, CCP does nothing for a long time and then goes completely off the scale in their response. Looking at the Dev responses in this thread and the original devblog, you can see the total ineptitude. They decided on this nerf in a single 5 hour session with 4 people. WTF? And then he proceeds to give examples of why nerfs were needed based on a 4 billion isk setup which very few people could ever afford to fly. It does not inspire any kind of trust that CCP has actually considered this properly with that kind of shoddy preparation and responses.
Markas Crais House of Dying Laggers	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:42:00 - [1431] Originally by: Nemesor Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda Originally by: Ituralde Since 7.5km is a deimos' sweet spot... 7.5km is not great but it isn't bad, plus you seem to be forgetting there will be inertia carrying the Deimos into optimal. Just don't plan to take on anything that's naturally faster than you unless it's multiple-webbed. You shouldn't be able to, anyway. You are assuming that it is your target that is scramming you. Fact is, your target can be flying with a Noob ship along side of him. A noob ship capable of shutting off your MWD... then webbing you. Yes... you can kill the frigate after you LOCK HIM... but now you have to wait for your reactivation time on your MWD to reset... THEN you have to motor toward your target again. All the while taking fire from your opponent... so even when you DO get into range, you have already been pounded on for enough time to render the fight effectively over. Very good point Nemesor.
Tomic The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:42:00 - [1432] Originally by: Aya I see 2 good things coming from this nerf if it goes through 1. The people who whined about nanos will still get their asses kicked by the 04-05 people and realize its not the nano but the fact that they suck at this game which is causing them to die. 2. Hydra and Daisho will undock (instead of hiding in their stations) Actually, thats not right at all: 1) The people who whined about nanos being overpowered will whine about something else being overpowered 2) Hydra and Daisho will still fail to undock, because at the end of the day they suck and always will.
Neth'Rae Gallente Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:43:00 - [1433] Originally by: Escobar Noreaga I love flying nano ships TBO, but even i must admit that im looking forward to the retuning of the game. Doesnt really bother me much since i can fly every ship t1 and t2 up to and including battleships of everyrace, i will definatly be spending some time thinking up some new out of the box fittings. Eve was getting a tad stale imho and this looks like a much needed breath of fresh air. My thoughts exactly :) And oh, can't wait to try out my new lachesis with a faction scrambler and close range ranis for more excitement :> Request signatures at EVE-GFX
Malena Panic Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:44:00 - [1434] Originally by: Nemesor You are assuming that it is your target that is scramming you. Fact is, your target can be flying with a Noob ship along side of him. LOL! So this isn't a nano-nerf, it's a newb ship buff. Thanks for clearing that up. ...
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:45:00 - [1435] Don't know why everyone is whining about Scramblers. Seem to forget they only have 7.5km range - so unless you want to give up that 24k point... Besides, I've seen maybe 3 Gallente recons since the Damp nerf, compared to about 200 Minmatar ones. Would definately be good for it. And Afterburners might actually become useful. Imagine that ...
Nemesor Gallente Stimulus	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:45:00 - [1436] Originally by: Malena Panic LOL! So this isn't a nano-nerf, it's a newb ship buff. Thanks for clearing that up. I used the Newb ship as an example of how ANY ship with two mids can remove one of the best close range combat ships in the game from a fight. Nice of you to notice.
SebN ShockTroopers	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:45:00 - [1437] The one question that I would like to know the answer; Does the reduction of the gang bonuses to 25.8% ONLY apply to the Rapid Deployment gang link or will it effect the other skirmish warfare gang links, the information was not particuly clear in the dev blog. I can accept you changing the MWD mechanics in regards to warp scramblers but I have spent a lot of time and dedication on training Leadership skills and i would hate to have 3 modules "nerfed" instead of the one particular module that you consider to be an issue. SebN
Rhamnousia Caldari Pelennor Swarm Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:10:00 - [1438] Nano isn't the ONLY method of guerrillas warfare out there atm. The other option is force recons and other cloaking ships. but don't you have to look at what really ruining the game? such as cyno jammer, blob warfare, capital infestation to name a few. Anything that revolve around a damn PoS.. or twenty. Nano isn't "imbalance" at the moment. it's the inability to really stop it. also, for the umpteenth time, nerfing isn't the answer. try boosting the other counterpart of nano. the stasis webifier. ---------------------- What happens in Pelennor stays in Pelennor. Forever Pelennor
Robin Chuwan	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:13:00 - [1439] hmm as a pilot who nanos some of his ships, i cant really say this bothers me. just means i have to refit my ships. though i am wondering about them scramblers so they deactivate the targets MWD, scrambles people. But will it keep its 2 points? or will it lose a point, coz if it doesnt it will do 3 things. 1 scramble people with no warp stab 2 scramble people with 1 warp stab 3 deactivate MWD ??
sophisticatedlimabean Gallente Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.26 00:14:00 - [1440] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Originally by: Thorradin Heavy Assault Ships being turned into giant tanked interceptors for starters? At the bargin price of only 6 billion isk Vaga hit 7km/sec with T2 gear+polies easily enough. Most ceptors can't even reach that speed without rigs. Nor can the vaga without rigs as you clearly stated. So your problem is that the hac that is designed spoecifically to go fast...goes fast am i correct?. My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake.

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