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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1713
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 22:44:00 -
[871] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Jed Bobby wrote:all these guys think eve is real life. its a ******* game lol calm down and play and stop being such wieners Yeah, its a game, but its a game I kind of like. Would rather not see it screwed up because of whining miners and DEVs who want to let their carebear flag fly.
Game will certainly die because you need to bring 1 more catalyst to kill the evil and dangerous Hulk. Got it. The sky will fall soon. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1461
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 22:45:00 -
[872] - Quote
Big Bossu wrote:Tbh, unfair comparison, because in 0.0, when I carebear I have at very least 30 seconds warning, in realistic scenarios many many minutes. In fact I am doing a complex right now as I am typing this, and I really cannot see myself dying.
are you watching a movie while running complexes? a rogue goon |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
87
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 22:46:00 -
[873] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:Jed Bobby wrote:all these guys think eve is real life. its a ******* game lol calm down and play and stop being such wieners Yeah, its a game, but its a game I kind of like. Would rather not see it screwed up because of whining miners and DEVs who want to let their carebear flag fly. Game will certainly die because you need to bring 1 more catalyst to kill the evil and dangerous Hulk. Got it. The sky will fall soon.
And like 10 T2 catalysts for a skiff in a 0.5 system. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1461
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 22:47:00 -
[874] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:That would be an active miner. In my example I am refering to a bot miner. When you are ganking a miner you can determine if the target is a bot. If it is you have all day to plan the perfect gank and get away with profit. In my example I was also refering to being hired to kill this bot. Now it will cost the ganker more in ships to do it kill the bot after Aug 8th. But it is still just sitting there waiting to be killed and you still get all the salvage.
Killing an active miner is more problemattic and should be more costly to do.
yeah the fact that you can cheaply gank a hulk that is either a bot or not paying any attention at all whatsoever is indicative of a gigantic balance issue in the game
an active miner has so many ways to mitigate ganks a rogue goon |
Big Bossu
Enterprise Estonia Northern Coalition.
2
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Posted - 2012.07.26 22:50:00 -
[875] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Big Bossu wrote:Tbh, unfair comparison, because in 0.0, when I carebear I have at very least 30 seconds warning, in realistic scenarios many many minutes. In fact I am doing a complex right now as I am typing this, and I really cannot see myself dying. are you watching a movie while running complexes?
Ishtar is pretty good for afking plexes.
edit: also in 0.0 mining gangs most people, at least the ones i know of, watch movies. You only need 1 active to say something in TS/Vent and/or fleet warp away. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
419
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Posted - 2012.07.26 22:50:00 -
[876] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:so what we've established in this thread is that miners can more actively protect themselves /with/ the current stats on exhumers but it's inconvenient when they want to leave the game alt-tabbed while they watch a movie
i'm glad that CCP is fixing this
More or less. Many fittings have been demonstrated that provide ample protection from Catalysts and Tornados.
We always get the same response - "But then I have to mine slower."
News Flash: When you glass-cannon fit your ******* Exhumer, you don't last as long in a fight. Just like PVP - you max-DPS your fits, you lose BIG in other places, due to stacking rules.
If I was a miner, I'd be like meaner version of Mara.
Tank up, and mine a little slower - or fit for Yield and keep a very sharp eye on the situation - with aggressive ECM drones out.
Instead of warning other miners in local, I'd just laff my ass off when my competition loses 8 Mackinaws to a smartbomb attack, and try to scoop as much salvage as I could.
Then I'd think about all those mineral/ice sell orders that I won't have to compete with.
Fortunately, I've already earned my passive income generating 'nestegg' ganking haulers and manufacturing Exhumers, so I don't really need to spend my gametime grinding ISK in the belts.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1661
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Posted - 2012.07.26 22:51:00 -
[877] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Also, larger mining fleets that may field additional support, don't need to bring crappy 600 per minute mining yield fits shown in the lolexamples anyway
You don't need additional support to fly high yield mining fleets. Just pick the right system and watch local: even in hisec, watching local works. Scout the belts, get an idea of who is in system mining, get to mining and watch for names you don't recognise.
And your "crappy" is nothing more than "baseline". That "crappy" Hulk fit is still higher yield than an all-5 max yield Osprey.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1713
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 22:52:00 -
[878] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:You put an implicit or. I put an explicit and: Tengu, implants and Orcas. You put an explicit "none" in the fitting screenshot. Now change that explicit "none" to "Orca with Shield Harmonization & Armor Passive Defence warfare links, pilot has Armor & Shield specialization to 5, but is only using the Mining Foreman Mindlink." That Orca is already being used as a giant jet can to support two hulks, so you may as well use it to maximise the defenses of the fleet. Then for extra sauce, have the Orca pilot as wing commander. Move one of the hulk pilots to squad commander, and fit the Siege Warfare Mindlink and have Siege Warfare Specialization trained to 5. It's amazing what you can squeeze out of a small, productive fleet if you set things up properly. There isn't even need for a Tengu or remote reps.
That's the setup I use(d), (I also produce Orcas and all their mods...) but I don't arrogate myself to impose such expensive setup on other players who could as well be new-ish or without the means to get all that bling including a command ship.
See I can see competitive tournament PvP games being purely balanced on the top of the top of the elite with the best gear and skills and using Naga / Sensei peripherals with special pads and so on.
But not a generalistic MMO and much less one where they are striving to finally improve new players experience. What are going to do those without the mythical "all V skills" that today struggle going above 10K EHP? Be told to suck it up and return to the game in 1 year and after they purchased Orca + alt?
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1713
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 22:53:00 -
[879] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Also, larger mining fleets that may field additional support, don't need to bring crappy 600 per minute mining yield fits shown in the lolexamples anyway You don't need additional support to fly high yield mining fleets. Just pick the right system and watch local: even in hisec, watching local works. Scout the belts, get an idea of who is in system mining, get to mining and watch for names you don't recognise. And your "crappy" is nothing more than "baseline". That "crappy" Hulk fit is still higher yield than an all-5 max yield Osprey.
I have done 80% ice mining (including when it was 1300 isk PU), there's not a lot of ice systems where to get out of gankers attention. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Jed Bobby
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 22:53:00 -
[880] - Quote
why not just stay the **** out of high systems and play with people who want to play with you? there are THOUSANDS of people in null/low get the **** out of high sec if the only thing you can kill is defenseless people.
in a way i like the segregation keep people separated who want to do separate things.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1713
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Posted - 2012.07.26 22:54:00 -
[881] - Quote
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:Jed Bobby wrote:all these guys think eve is real life. its a ******* game lol calm down and play and stop being such wieners Yeah, its a game, but its a game I kind of like. Would rather not see it screwed up because of whining miners and DEVs who want to let their carebear flag fly. Game will certainly die because you need to bring 1 more catalyst to kill the evil and dangerous Hulk. Got it. The sky will fall soon. And like 10 T2 catalysts for a skiff in a 0.5 system.
Seeing the Skiff has lower cargo and yield, almost all will use Macks. But most still have their old Hulk so there'll be still plenty to kill. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Pipa Porto
510
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 22:55:00 -
[882] - Quote
arcca jeth wrote:would ganking Hulks be profitable at all if the people who have a monopoly on building them weren't offering you 10M to blow one up? would you do it if there was no bounty on them?
First, I don't grant your premise. Nobody has a monopoly on building Hulks.
That said,
Yep*. Yep.
*If they continue to refuse to fit a tank. A Hulk can be tanked such that it is unprofitable to gank it in any sec band. Untanked, it's profitable in most sec bands. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Jed Bobby
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2012.07.26 22:55:00 -
[883] - Quote
guys, (this applies to the null/low whiners) what say you if I do my best to put together a corp of new players get them all excited and take them to this super "safe" place that I know about where its secret. we can mine and pve to our hearts content, then give you said location so that you can asplode them? would you all shut the hell up? |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
87
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Posted - 2012.07.26 22:57:00 -
[884] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Werst Dendenahzees wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:Jed Bobby wrote:all these guys think eve is real life. its a ******* game lol calm down and play and stop being such wieners Yeah, its a game, but its a game I kind of like. Would rather not see it screwed up because of whining miners and DEVs who want to let their carebear flag fly. Game will certainly die because you need to bring 1 more catalyst to kill the evil and dangerous Hulk. Got it. The sky will fall soon. And like 10 T2 catalysts for a skiff in a 0.5 system. Seeing the Skiff has lower cargo and yield, almost all will use Macks. But most still have their old Hulk so there'll be still plenty to kill.
The new mack has a much better tank than the hulk, both old and new. It's going to be in the ''unlikely'' ganking bracket most of the time and the **** you bracket in a 0.9 and over. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1713
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Posted - 2012.07.26 23:00:00 -
[885] - Quote
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
The new mack has a much better tank than the hulk, both old and new. It's going to be in the ''unlikely'' ganking bracket most of the time and the **** you bracket in a 0.9 and over.
Well it had half the Hulk tank for years, time for some revenge.
But joking aside, mining ships like that will fall in the same category of the others: you kill them because of an agenda or because they are pimped or because they are carrying valuable stuff. Not because it's completely free ISK even killing the bare hull. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
419
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:01:00 -
[886] - Quote
Jed Bobby wrote:why not just stay the **** out of high systems and play with people who want to play with you? there are THOUSANDS of people in null/low get the **** out of high sec if the only thing you can kill is defenseless people.
in a way i like the segregation keep people separated who want to do separate things.
A) I don't enjoy cooperative behavior. I don't want to 'play with' miners, I just want them to die. B) They aren't defenseless - they choose to fit their ships that way. Mental disability is no excuse. C) Follow your own advice then, if you like roaming empty space in nulsec, or pointless sparring with T1 Rifters in lowsec, do it.
I'd rather stick to highsec, manipulating markets, manufacturing Exhumers and depopulating the ice belts. |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
545
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:02:00 -
[887] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote: [multiple-quote snippy-snippy]
Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender). Pray tell, why do you think this? Ganking-for-profit and/or making a "career" of same is arguably one of the last few remaining examples of truly emergent gameplay left in hisec, IMHO. You've nerfed everything else into the ground, and the more pants-on-head ("Suspect-flag" but "suspect" can't shoot back without sec-loss and/or CONCORDokken-- What. The. F-word????!!!) aspects of the proposed Crimewatcg thingy look to only make this effectively carved in stone if implemented. No, really: No troll, dead serious: Why do you think this?
Nerfing emergent gameplay is very bad, OK? IMHO the devs do not think of it as emergent game play but rather exploitive game play. Nice try though with an attempt to define it in preferable terms.
Nice, weak little straw-man, used as an even weaker little appeal to authority, bru. Fail.
If the devs really thought that it was "exploitative," then they would have declared it an exploit--because CCP has shown that they really don't like that sort of thing, as well they shouldn't--with the appropriate penalties for exploiting, and/or hard-mechanic fixing so it's not even do-able (ref.: The utterly senseless hard-nerf of the OPs "Tornado Bootlegger's Turn" manoeuvre).
This has not happened now, nor has it ever. There is also nothing explicitly even implying that it will, that has been said by anyone with a blue tag by their avatar.
Learn to debate.
Next!
In irae, veritas. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1461
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:03:00 -
[888] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:That's the setup I use(d), (I also produce Orcas and all their mods...) but I don't arrogate myself to impose such expensive setup on other players who could as well be new-ish or without the means to get all that bling including a command ship.
See I can see competitive tournament PvP games being purely balanced on the top of the top of the elite with the best gear and skills and using Naga / Sensei peripherals with special pads and so on.
But not a generalistic MMO and much less one where they are striving to finally improve new players experience. What are going to do those without the mythical "all V skills" that today struggle going above 10K EHP? Be told to suck it up and return to the game in 1 year and after they purchased Orca + alt?
>new players >Hulks
ahahahahaha a rogue goon |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1713
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:03:00 -
[889] - Quote
Ah, last but not least, maybe people would be more agreeing with the claims if they were not:
- Called "stupid Pigs" right here.
- Made subject of WWII copied manifestos by other "ideologists" for months.
- Pictured like they are the ultimate evil that should be eradicated from the game. "They are all bots anyway".
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Pipa Porto
510
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:04:00 -
[890] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Pipa Porto wrote: The following combat ships require at least one fitting mod. Arty Cane Every Logistics ship Ever. Hellcats (that T2 Elutrition rig? That's a fitting mod) 100mn Tengus (Officer Fitting mods, even). Stealth Bombers Fleet Dictors AHACs (Zealots need their RCU) Sniper HACs
You haven't flown many combat ships, have you?
I have all sorts of ary canes and no one ever used a fitting mod. Maybe that's some specialty fitting but guess what, if I don't like it I can choose one of 1000 other cane fittings that don't need it. What can I fit instead of a MAPC or bulkheads in a Hulk to get it to those fabled "T2 tank ships" levels? Nothing.
It's the type of Cane with Artillery. For Long range stuff.
You can fit a MAPC and you will tank better than most HACs (and look, HACs need fitting mods too). Why are miners so afraid of fitting mods? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
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Jed Bobby
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2012.07.26 23:04:00 -
[891] - Quote
well then why are you complaining that they are getting bolstered defenses? its not stopping you from killing miners just bring a bigger ship to kill them if you dont care and only wnt them to die then kill them and stop being a ***** lol |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1713
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Posted - 2012.07.26 23:04:00 -
[892] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:That's the setup I use(d), (I also produce Orcas and all their mods...) but I don't arrogate myself to impose such expensive setup on other players who could as well be new-ish or without the means to get all that bling including a command ship.
See I can see competitive tournament PvP games being purely balanced on the top of the top of the elite with the best gear and skills and using Naga / Sensei peripherals with special pads and so on.
But not a generalistic MMO and much less one where they are striving to finally improve new players experience. What are going to do those without the mythical "all V skills" that today struggle going above 10K EHP? Be told to suck it up and return to the game in 1 year and after they purchased Orca + alt?
>new players >Hulks ahahahahaha
57 days ahahahah. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1662
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Posted - 2012.07.26 23:05:00 -
[893] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:What are going to do those without the mythical "all V skills" that today struggle going above 10K EHP? Be told to suck it up and return to the game in 1 year and after they purchased Orca + alt?
- Don't fly what you can't afford to lose
- Fit a tank
- Don't fly what you can't afford to lose
- Make friends
- Don't fly what you can't afford to lose
- Don't go AFK
- Don't fly what you can't afford to lose
This is advice that is repeated often in other aspects of the game. Why should miners get magical exemptions from the basic rules of the game?
My Hulk, standalone, has around 20k EHP. Noone's going to gank it even without an Orca nearby, there are more attractive targets sitting further down the belt. I earned that 20k EHP by training the appropriate skills. The "all 5s" are Engineering, Electronics, Mechanics, Hull Upgrades, Shield Management, Shield Compensation, Exhumers and the appropriate skills to be able to fly the Exhumer in the first place. Note that the leadership skills require a fleet, and it's entirely possible to have the Orca pilot being the only one with maxed leadership skills: that pilot can fit the siege warfare mindlink instead of the mining foreman mindlink. And they don't even need to be flying an Orca: the booster pilot can be flying an industrial until the fleet can afford an Orca, the leadership boosts will still apply.
The Hulk is the end-game of the mining profession. After that you're into leadership and materiel logistics roles (orca, rorqual) and you are no longer simply mining. There is a similar lead-up in training requirements in order to fly other T2 ships. Just because you can get into a Hulk in 55 days doesn't mean you belong in one.
People who don't make friends, go AFK, fit max yield and fly ships they can't afford to lose, are going to have a hard time in any aspect of EVE. Give that 55-day pilot a fleet with suitable support and they won't necessarily lose their Hulk in a hurry, but then they've started following the rules: make friends, don't go AFK, fit a tank.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
12
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Posted - 2012.07.26 23:06:00 -
[894] - Quote
So, in light of all the civilized conversations going on, I went ahead and tried my darndest to do something incredibly stupid, and ended up sitting in a "max yield" hulk. It came out to 14k EHP w/ low-grade slaves. Gankable still?
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go throw up and then drink lots of beer, not fitting a DCII on a ship, and undocking seems to have been a little to much for me.
(note, this was all on sisi with the current changes to barges) |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1713
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:06:00 -
[895] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Pipa Porto wrote: The following combat ships require at least one fitting mod. Arty Cane Every Logistics ship Ever. Hellcats (that T2 Elutrition rig? That's a fitting mod) 100mn Tengus (Officer Fitting mods, even). Stealth Bombers Fleet Dictors AHACs (Zealots need their RCU) Sniper HACs
You haven't flown many combat ships, have you?
I have all sorts of ary canes and no one ever used a fitting mod. Maybe that's some specialty fitting but guess what, if I don't like it I can choose one of 1000 other cane fittings that don't need it. What can I fit instead of a MAPC or bulkheads in a Hulk to get it to those fabled "T2 tank ships" levels? Nothing. It's the type of Cane with Artillery. For Long range stuff. You can fit a MAPC and you will tank better than most HACs (and look, HACs need fitting mods too). Why are miners so afraid of fitting mods?
I forgot canes came with all of 2 slots for that MAPC. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
431
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:08:00 -
[896] - Quote
Jed Bobby wrote:guys, (this applies to the null/low whiners) what say you if I do my best to put together a corp of new players get them all excited and take them to this super "safe" place that I know about where its secret. we can mine and pve to our hearts content, then give you said location so that you can asplode them? would you all shut the hell up? Your avatar appears to have downs. Did you model him after yourself? EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1662
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Posted - 2012.07.26 23:08:00 -
[897] - Quote
What if CCP have something else in the pipeline that means the extra EHP of the mining barges will be needed?
I'm sure folks will love their new high-DPS glass cannons. And mudflation continues.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Jed Bobby
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2012.07.26 23:09:00 -
[898] - Quote
hes an impression of the mittani |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
87
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Posted - 2012.07.26 23:10:00 -
[899] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:So, in light of all the civilized conversations going on, I went ahead and tried my darndest to do something incredibly stupid, and ended up sitting in a "max yield" hulk. It came out to 14k EHP w/ low-grade slaves. Gankable still?
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go throw up and then drink lots of beer, not fitting a DCII on a ship, and undocking seems to have been a little to much for me.
(note, this was all on sisi with the current changes to barges)
Yes, slaves for a shield tanked ship, perfect plan |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1713
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:11:00 -
[900] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:The Hulk is the end-game of the mining profession. After that you're into leadership and materiel logistics roles (orca, rorqual) and you are no longer simply mining. There is a similar lead-up in training requirements in order to fly other T2 ships. Just because you can get into a Hulk in 55 days doesn't mean you belong in one.
People who don't make friends, go AFK, fit max yield and fly ships they can't afford to lose, are going to have a hard time in any aspect of EVE. Give that 55-day pilot a fleet with suitable support and they won't necessarily lose their Hulk in a hurry, but then they've started following the rules: make friends, don't go AFK, fit a tank.
Apparently the majority of the playerbase buys the Hulk (top used ship) and won't take your "doesn't mean you belong in one". It's much easier that their peer pressure will get the game modified to cater to them instead, and this is the dynamic nature of MMOs, the stronger "faction" wins and some times even force developers to comply.
As for making friends, the day it's suggested as pre-requisite to play EvE (like it was for other older MMOs) then I suppose we'll just told the majority to quit EvE and go play a more suitable solo player compatible game.
I am fine whatever, I have both friends, ISK, Orcas, BPOs and RR ships for any event. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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