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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
baltec1
Bat Country
1704
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:24:00 -
[151] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote: I
Dec every hi-sec corp.
~deal with it~
Because thats possible |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1440
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:25:00 -
[152] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:This is where CCP acknowledges that gankers, as a group, are too chickenshiz to gank barges using wardecs, or venture out into gankland where wardecs are not needed and Concord cannot touch you.
99% of miners dont go anywhere where there is no CONCORD and will jump corp when wardeced. CCP are about to make mining as risk free as its possible to get in space as well as very bot friendly. I fail to see how that's MY problem. Dec every hi-sec corp. This change means cheaper minerals for me, which = cheaper cap fleets. ~deal with it~
lmao ex-widot a rogue goon |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
246
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:28:00 -
[153] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:His wording is pretty clear. There is still quite a bit of room for interpretation. When I read it I took it as hull for hull, not counting variables including fit and cargo. But as I said before, I could be mistaken. Pipa Porto wrote:Deciding on a cost to gank is fine (that's basically what a Freighter's EHP is). But there's no reason it should have anything to do with the cost of the ship. It shouldn't (and doesn't even in the hulk's case with similar costing ships). Your illustration proves that. Maybe what we have is more of a response to the social evolution of the game then. there is literally no way to make it cost as much as a Hulk to suicide gank a Hulk because there is no across the board damage/cost ratio for ships because of the diminishing returns aspect of the game a Vindicator may be substantially more powerful than a Megathron, but even though it costs 10x as much, it does not perform 10x as well Let me clarify, in this case it would be the potential reward of the gank based on the hull alone, not the cost. In the case of T2 salvage this can set a high bar for exhumers.
All that aside I do wish the hulk had actually been left alone base HP wise and the focus shifted abit to just enhancing fittings. would be much more interesting IMHO. |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
85
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:30:00 -
[154] - Quote
The fact that the 30k ehp hulk, which was already fairly immune to cost effective ganks in 0.8 and up, is now the WEAKEST exhumer tank, is frankly a huge blunder. |
baltec1
Bat Country
1704
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:32:00 -
[155] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
All that aside I do wish the hulk had actually been left alone base HP wise and the focus shifted abit to just enhancing fittings. would be much more interesting IMHO.
Agreed, the exhumers did not need more HP on the hulls. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1440
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:32:00 -
[156] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Let me clarify, in this case it would be the potential reward of the gank based on the hull alone, not the cost. In the case of T2 salvage this can set a high bar for exhumers.
All that aside I do wish the hulk had actually been left alone base HP wise and the focus shifted abit to just enhancing fittings. would be much more interesting IMHO.
This is what I've been saying - rather than fiddling around with giving them hilariously high base HP, give them the ability to fit better tanks at the expense of yield so that sacrificing yield could actually net you a decent enough tank
a Hulk right now can tank 36k EHP against blasters, which is decent, but it'd be better if it could wring out 60k (again, sacrificing yield) while not being much better off than it is now with an all-yield fit a rogue goon |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
261
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:34:00 -
[157] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
All that aside I do wish the hulk had actually been left alone base HP wise and the focus shifted abit to just enhancing fittings. would be much more interesting IMHO.
Agreed, the exhumers did not need more HP on the hulls.
then they did need more cpu/pg for fittings. almost every tank fit i've seen for the current hulk requires micro auxiluary power core thingies for extra fitting space. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
dexington
74
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:35:00 -
[158] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:there is literally no way to make it cost as much as a Hulk to suicide gank a Hulk because there is no across the board damage/cost ratio for ships because of the diminishing returns aspect of the game
That is the case for most ships, why should it be any different for mining ship?, the aggressor(s) still have the option to form a group an use several less expensive.
You can get a battlecruiser for around 40M and hulk a hulk for around 270M. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥-á |
Pipa Porto
498
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:35:00 -
[159] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:His wording is pretty clear. There is still quite a bit of room for interpretation. When I read it I took it as hull for hull, not counting variables including fit and cargo. But as I said before, I could be mistaken. Pipa Porto wrote:Deciding on a cost to gank is fine (that's basically what a Freighter's EHP is). But there's no reason it should have anything to do with the cost of the ship. It shouldn't (and doesn't even in the hulk's case with similar costing ships). Your illustration proves that. Maybe what we have is more of a response to the social evolution of the game then.
So we should punish successful strategies even though the victims of said strategies have had the way to beat those successful ones explained to them many times?
If taking Australia and holding it for 20 turns works for me every time in Risk because my opponents never even try to stop me over the course of Hundreds of games (even though they've had the strategy explained to them), do you nerf Australia, or do you decide that my opponents are morons?
Suicide ganking can be trivially countered. The ways in which it can be countered have been enumerated many times.
1. Tank your Hulk 2. Mine aligned (webs make this easy, but it can be done solo)(Total Immunity here) 3. Mine in a Rokh (battleship mining used to be THE way to make money) 4. Use D-Scan to look for gank ships incoming 5. Use Local in a backwater and get to know the regulars. 6. Sit in a Grav site and use D-Scan (really effective) 7. Sit in a mission pocket and use D-Scan (short range d-scan will eliminate most false positives) 8. Use a fleet booster on a tanked Hulk (~45-50k EHP) 9. Use RR 10. Use ECM 11. Put a Seboed 800mm Nado on your Hulks and Blap anyone who goes GCC. 12. Use ECM drones set on aggressive
All of these provide varying measures of safety at varying costs. None of them don't work. All of them are strong counters to Suicide ganks.
If a strategy can be trivially countered, it's not Overpowered. The opponents are just bad. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
85
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:35:00 -
[160] - Quote
I for one will be theorycrafting a sigtanked bonused battleskiff comedy doctrine. |
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Harbingour
Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:36:00 -
[161] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:So... the moral of the story is that the Big Bad Wolf has gone from being a windbag to a crybaby?
Yep grab the tear bucket & start collectingthe delicious lazy gankers tears lil' piggies |
Pipa Porto
498
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:38:00 -
[162] - Quote
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:I for one will be theorycrafting a sigtanked bonused battleskiff comedy doctrine.
A Cyno Skiff in every mining fleet.
Awoxers never had it so good (you won't even be on the KMs). EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1036
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:38:00 -
[163] - Quote
Malphilos wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Suicide ganking wasn't designed to be profitable, it's meant to be an option that let's you punish someone else at your expense. There's a whole bunch of interesting in this bit.
oh, hah i see it now too xD you bastard, ruined my purity.
also wth I've never flown caps, even on my main. Or lit a cyno personally. Is it really something any ship can use? shouldn't it be something a ship with a role uses? like bombs? http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1440
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:42:00 -
[164] - Quote
Harbingour wrote:stoicfaux wrote:So... the moral of the story is that the Big Bad Wolf has gone from being a windbag to a crybaby?
Yep grab the tear bucket & start collectingthe delicious lazy gankers tears lil' piggies
frankly the "abloobloobloo my hulk got blown up in hisec i thought it was safe there" tears were far, far better a rogue goon |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4360
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:45:00 -
[165] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Zagdul wrote:Gone are the days where EVE is a dangerous place. I seem to have missed the part when they made all player ships immune to damage. That won't happen as long as I'm around, btw. Suicide ganking wasn't designed to be profitable, it's meant to be an option that let's you punish someone else at your expense. The money you paid for a ship to gank with compared to the money lost by your target was completely off and this change should bring that to a better spot. That said, the numbers can still be adjusted.
I was under the impression that suicide ganking wasn't "designed" at all, insofar as all ships anywhere in space can be attacked by default. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
261
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:46:00 -
[166] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Harbingour wrote:stoicfaux wrote:So... the moral of the story is that the Big Bad Wolf has gone from being a windbag to a crybaby?
Yep grab the tear bucket & start collectingthe delicious lazy gankers tears lil' piggies frankly the "abloobloobloo my hulk got blown up in hisec i thought it was safe there" tears were far, far better
any plans for goons to raise rewards for hulkageddon in order to somewhat bankroll bigger ships to continue ganking miners? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Werst Dendenahzees
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
85
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:46:00 -
[167] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Werst Dendenahzees wrote:I for one will be theorycrafting a sigtanked bonused battleskiff comedy doctrine. A Cyno Skiff in every mining fleet. Awoxers never had it so good (you won't even be on the KMs).
Seriously a 100k ehp cruiser sized skiff, with tengu and loki bonuses, will be a hilarious thing. |
Pipa Porto
498
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:48:00 -
[168] - Quote
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Werst Dendenahzees wrote:I for one will be theorycrafting a sigtanked bonused battleskiff comedy doctrine. A Cyno Skiff in every mining fleet. Awoxers never had it so good (you won't even be on the KMs). Seriously a 100k ehp cruiser sized skiff, with tengu and loki bonuses, will be a hilarious thing.
From what I understand from another thread, it's Sig Radius is decreasing to an almost Frigate size. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
246
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:49:00 -
[169] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:A lot of stuff. I don't fundamentally dissagree with what you've said here, but it doesn't change the idea of a base EHP cost to perform a gank, which is clearly what they have in mind. This is a penalty for doing what you did, regardless of if the person you did it to allowed it to happen or not. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1440
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:50:00 -
[170] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:From what I understand from another thread, it's Sig Radius is decreasing to an almost Frigate size.
the skiff already has a frigate-sized sig a rogue goon |
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Pipa Porto
498
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:52:00 -
[171] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:From what I understand from another thread, it's Sig Radius is decreasing to an almost Frigate size. the skiff already has a frigate-sized sig
Ok, not decreasing. Staying the same. Aren't 100k EHP Frigates a wonderful idea? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1440
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:53:00 -
[172] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:any plans for goons to raise rewards for hulkageddon in order to somewhat bankroll bigger ships to continue ganking miners?
yeah if we do continue to fund hulkageddon infinity despite the tech nerf, we might have to slightly increase the reward so that people could use *gasp* more than one catalyst a rogue goon |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
429
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:58:00 -
[173] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender). That's a nice sentiment I suppose, but it seems you've failed to back it up with anything resembling a justification.
Do you have any idea what you're about to do to the game with this change? Do you seriously believe this is a good idea? MINERS THEMSELVES should be against this change, because it promotes lazy gameplay. Intelligent miners will be making far less, the price of minerals as a whole will drop, and supercapital production will be significantly cheaper. The only miners that will make any kind of money now are the same miners who find it difficult to pull a profit under these conditions because they're lazy and mine for hours simply because they don't even sit at their computers while they do it.
How you could possibly think this is a good idea is beyond me. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1440
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:58:00 -
[174] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:From what I understand from another thread, it's Sig Radius is decreasing to an almost Frigate size. the skiff already has a frigate-sized sig Ok, not decreasing. Staying the same. Aren't 100k EHP Frigates a wonderful idea?
oh wait, the skiff is getting its sig radius changed to 200 from 90
a hilarious side effect is that it'll be able to fit a 10mn afterburner and zoom around with the same tank as a T3 while acting as heavy tackle with its new utility midslot
what great foresight there a rogue goon |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
261
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:58:00 -
[175] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Dave stark wrote:any plans for goons to raise rewards for hulkageddon in order to somewhat bankroll bigger ships to continue ganking miners? yeah if we do continue to fund hulkageddon infinity despite the tech nerf, we might have to slightly increase the reward so that people could use *gasp* more than one catalyst
interesting. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
469
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 06:59:00 -
[176] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender).
Oh, did you notice? What could be wrong with blowing ships worth 400 million (and a couple weeks of casual mining) with ships worth 1.5 million and which the NPE hands out for free?
I'm waiting now for you to check how much it costs to blow a mission runner ship worth 2+ billion ISK (and a couple months of casual mission runing).
"We want your help to convince management to develop Incarna into 3rd person shooter dungeon raiding with friendly fire in nullsec space..."
Seriously, Team Avatar? |
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
119
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 07:00:00 -
[177] - Quote
Wait, ganking wasn't meant to be profitable? I think I need to be banned for exploiting
Also, surely these extra HPs will be reflected in build materials needed? That bulk need to come from somewhere. Or is this whole thing based on space magic?
Really, macks should cost around half a bill according to this. Don't look at me so teary eyed miner bear. After all it probably will be just a magical HP buff. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1647
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 07:00:00 -
[178] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I was under the impression that suicide ganking wasn't "designed" at all, insofar as all ships anywhere in space can be attacked by default.
There's a fairy tale about a King who was looking for a master marksman to hunt the villains who kidnapped his daughter. His scouts brought him this bent, blunt old man carrying a bow, a quiver of arrows and a can of paint. The advisers exclaimed, "sire! This man is the most incredible marksman in the country! Every arrow he shoots hits the bullseye!"
To demonstrate, the old man shot an arrow, which bounced off the edge of the target roundel, ricochet of a wall and embedded itself in a tree. The old man walked over to the tree and painted a bullseye around the arrow.
TL;DR: GÇ£History shall be kind to us, for we shall write it!GÇ¥ Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
261
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 07:00:00 -
[179] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender). That's a nice sentiment I suppose, but it seems you've failed to back it up with anything resembling a justification. Do you have any idea what you're about to do to the game with this change? Do you seriously believe this is a good idea? MINERS THEMSELVES should be against this change, because it promotes lazy gameplay. Intelligent miners will be making far less, the price of minerals as a whole will drop, and supercapital production will be significantly cheaper. The only miners that will make any kind of money now are the same miners who find it difficult to pull a profit under these conditions because they're lazy and mine for hours simply because they don't even sit at their computers while they do it. How you could possibly think this is a good idea is beyond me.
i nearly took you seriously until you said miners could be afk for hours demonstrating you've never mined for more than 5 mins in your entire life. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Pipa Porto
498
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 07:01:00 -
[180] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender). Oh, did you notice? What could be wrong with blowing ships worth 400 million (and a couple weeks of casual mining) with ships worth 1.5 million and which the NPE hands out for free? I'm waiting now for you to check how much it costs to blow a mission runner ship worth 2+ billion ISK (and a couple months of casual mission runing).
It costs 1 Tornado if you do it right. 2 if you're lazy about it. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone |
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