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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Garresh
Opposite of Low
16
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Posted - 2012.08.03 07:43:00 -
[241] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:If your entire pvp experience is low-sec consists of "45-60" second fights, then I can see how this change wouldn't affect you much. Even small gang fights, however, last much longer than that. In 10-on-10 engagements, it wouldn't be uncommon to see the end of the fight happen around the 10-minute mark. Considering the fact that according to math, the gate guns are going to be doing more dps than a 10-man gang by the 121th second, this change is a massive nerf to "actual interesting fights."
The only thing you will see is an increase in gate camps, which will now be done with interceptors and alpha strikers.
Then extend the curve out to like 15 minutes. The core principle seems sound. That math needs work.  |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
825
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Posted - 2012.08.03 07:53:00 -
[242] - Quote
Garresh wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:If your entire pvp experience is low-sec consists of "45-60" second fights, then I can see how this change wouldn't affect you much. Even small gang fights, however, last much longer than that. In 10-on-10 engagements, it wouldn't be uncommon to see the end of the fight happen around the 10-minute mark. Considering the fact that according to math, the gate guns are going to be doing more dps than a 10-man gang by the 121th second, this change is a massive nerf to "actual interesting fights."
The only thing you will see is an increase in gate camps, which will now be done with interceptors and alpha strikers. Then extend the curve out to like 15 minutes. The core principle seems sound. That math needs work.
It's in the billions. I'm pretty sure CCP was forced to cap that progression due to the long integer limit thing.
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Conrad Makbure
Illuminatus Reforged
The Revenant Order
22
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Posted - 2012.08.03 07:53:00 -
[243] - Quote
I'm looking forward to this; it will increase traffic in low sec. Gate campers will complain about the change, but won't they complain about anything that makes camping harder anyway? You can probe scan someone down in about 30 seconds, jeeze. The low sec ship destruction will increase; how do you not see this. |
Mardrus
Wolfsbrigade
Lost Obsession
0
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Posted - 2012.08.03 07:55:00 -
[244] - Quote
Garresh wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:If your entire pvp experience is low-sec consists of "45-60" second fights, then I can see how this change wouldn't affect you much. Even small gang fights, however, last much longer than that. In 10-on-10 engagements, it wouldn't be uncommon to see the end of the fight happen around the 10-minute mark. Considering the fact that according to math, the gate guns are going to be doing more dps than a 10-man gang by the 121th second, this change is a massive nerf to "actual interesting fights."
The only thing you will see is an increase in gate camps, which will now be done with interceptors and alpha strikers. Then extend the curve out to like 15 minutes. The core principle seems sound. That math needs work.
Why do you consider 15mins enough?
What justification is there for that! Why can't I have a nice big fleet fight for 4 hours if I want!
What is your reasoning for preventing me from having a four hour fight.... Ahh yes right, preventing tears from a couple of camped gates is more important than actual good fights on gate |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
825
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Posted - 2012.08.03 07:58:00 -
[245] - Quote
Conrad Makbure wrote:I'm looking forward to this; it will increase traffic in low sec.
No it won't. It will be easier to kill people at gates, not more difficult, due to the ability to use scanres-fit interceptors.
Conrad Makbure wrote:Gate campers will complain about the change, but won't they complain about anything that makes camping harder anyway?
Gate campers won't complain about this change, because this change is a massive buff to gate camping. Small-group pvpers will complain about this change, especially if they're outlaws. Some affected FW people will also complain about it.
Conrad Makbure wrote:You can probe scan someone down in about 30 seconds, jeeze. The low sec ship destruction will increase; how do you not see this.
Yes, campers will certainly be getting more kills than they were before. Overall, however, the kill count is going to go down.
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
131
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Posted - 2012.08.03 08:01:00 -
[246] - Quote
If people want genuine "goodfights", then they'l still happen, just not on gates. There have been far worse changes to other playstyles in the past, and yet, somehow eve has not died.
Rest assured that short of pulling the plug, there isn't much CCP can do to stop you having fun in the game, unless you're unable to try new things once in a while.
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Arec Bardwin
Perkone
Caldari State
696
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Posted - 2012.08.03 08:04:00 -
[247] - Quote
Quote:CCP Greyscale also points out that another goal is to make it so that the first couple of hits won't kill an interceptor immediately, enabling a quick tackle, and then a warp out. This is a HUGE buff to bouncing gatecamps. |
Khorian
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
13
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Posted - 2012.08.03 08:05:00 -
[248] - Quote
4,5 Minutes to kill a triage carrier, and let me guess... 10 minutes to kill a titan right? Anyway. I don't like this proposed change. Why strengthen this "Deus Ex Machina" on engangements longer than a minute, without first putting stuff into lowsec that encourages more people to go there.
CCP. Your players are not stupid. High sec dwellers might be risk adverse, but if thrown into the situation where they actually think about going into low sec for better profits, many of them will overcome the "odds of the omnipresent evil low sec gatecamps that seem to exist on EVERY SINGLE low sec gate according to this thread and popular perception".
People will band together and fly in groups, counter drop the gate campers. Form regional intel channels and counter gangs. Just like they have done since years.
Let me break it down to you: If you die in lowsec, the SAFEST space in EvE Online, you are doing it wrong and need to adapt. Living in low sec is god damn easy.
How the hell did people make it through lowsec years ago when there was no warp to zero? Let me tell you. Determination and willpower. There is always a way if you want something. I didn't quit when i lost my first Brutix to a gatecamp. I learned from the expirience and adapted. And I, like many others back in te day had it much worse than the people today.
I tell you if people DO WANT something really really bad, they will find ways to get it. Give them a reason to actually want to go to low sec. I wanted to farm some static 3/10 complex in Aridia back then, and I eventually did it. It wasn't easy but i did it, and it felt good. I know, thats alot more work to think up and implement stuff than a quick Sentry gun fix. But thats your damn job. Be creative and don't betray the core principles of what EVE Online is, one little piece at a time.
EvE could use some other form of travel, a fundamental change to gate travel as we know it today, wich is also a game mechanic from 2000 and the early concept stages. Fighting in EVE happens on Gates most of the time. I am not 100% sure about that but I would bet my left nut that it is that way. Why is that? Because for a traveller there is no need and no reason to be anywhere else in a system than gate A and Gate B, and between those two points there is no way he can be stopped. If you don't catch him on the in gate, he is gone!
And engagements last longer than 4 minutes.
That is all. |
A Lunchbox
Basgerin Pirate
19
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Posted - 2012.08.03 08:26:00 -
[249] - Quote
I can see it now - dozens of carebears sitting around on stations and gates talking **** to eachother and never engaging because they're too ***** to lose sec status/take sentry fire, while noone runs the belts or signatures/anoms because of suddenly, pirates.
Sounds about the same as every other time bears come to low (minus gatecamps). Needs work.
Box |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc
Elysian Empire
179
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Posted - 2012.08.03 08:48:00 -
[250] - Quote
It's just another entry in the long list of god awful suggestions/changes greyscale has made
I honestly don't think he understands this game at all. All his ideas for crimewatch are nothing but detrimental to PVP. I mean really, gate guns destroying you because you looted a wreck? Global suspect flag that allows anyone to shoot you because you flipped a bloody can? The remote rep mechanics... is greyscale just a trolldev or something |
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
825
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Posted - 2012.08.03 08:54:00 -
[251] - Quote
Khorian wrote:How the hell did people make it through lowsec years ago when there was no warp to zero? Let me tell you. Determination and willpower. There is always a way if you want something. I didn't quit when i lost my first Brutix to a gatecamp. I learned from the expirience and adapted. And I, like many others back in te day had it much worse than the people today.
The real problem is that the majority of people, after losing said Brutix, would immediately hit the account management page, cancel the subscription, put "my shipz deaded!!1" in the reason for quitting field, and go back to Angry Birds and Farmville. There's a lot of these people, and CCP, like other gaming companies that decided they're tired of wearing rags and eating crusts, wants their money. That's why we get these changes that surreptitiously drive us from the game.
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
UtamaDoc
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.08.03 08:57:00 -
[252] - Quote
Isalone wrote:Quote:CCP Greyscale moves on to explain his work on sentry guns. Sentry guns will now shoot anyone with a criminal flag, suspect or otherwise. Sentry guns will also start with smaller amounts of damage, and ramp up with time. Ideal tuning will be to where triage carriers will die at around 4 1/2 minutes. This way, if you want to use triage carriers in lowsec on gates you can, but you must commit to the cycle for a length of time before starting your reps, if you want to deactivate triage before the sentry guns kill you and jump out. CCP Greyscale also points out that another goal is to make it so that the first couple of hits won't kill an interceptor immediately, enabling a quick tackle, and then a warp out. I've lived in lowsec for quite a while now and gotta tell you - this is probably gonna cause as much "whine 'n' unsub" threads as nex store/greed is good did. For those who don't go to low often - most of fleet/gang fights in low take place at gates. If gateguns are gonna pop carriers 4.5mins into the fight, cruiser/bc fleets going gcc on a gate aren't gonna happen at all. When was the last time you have seen a carrier at a gate? I don't think I've ever seen one. Gatecamps - those aren't the problem, people who won't learn/adapt are. You can easily get through all of them, just do a little research. discuss, lol
Sounds like to me you are whining at the fact that you can't sit there and smart bomb people and also sit there with gay logi setup's where the damage of Sentries is useless. ... |
OmniBeton
OmniBeton Metatech
14
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Posted - 2012.08.03 09:02:00 -
[253] - Quote
All those elite low-sec pvpers ... they will not be able to sit 24h/day at gate or station, drinking beer and killing every ship that tries to enter or leave low sec with little effort ... they will have to actually fly to belts after miners or into scan thoose dirty missioners on they safe spots, and CATCH them before they escape ... that's terrible, so terrible .... |
baltec1
Bat Country
1786
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Posted - 2012.08.03 09:03:00 -
[254] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:It's just another entry in the long list of god awful suggestions/changes greyscale has made
I honestly don't think he understands this game at all. All his ideas for crimewatch are nothing but detrimental to PVP. I mean really, gate guns destroying you because you looted a wreck? Global suspect flag that allows anyone to shoot you because you flipped a bloody can? The remote rep mechanics... is greyscale just a trolldev or something
To be honest I like the can idea but this gate gun change will only help the blob campers. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
825
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Posted - 2012.08.03 09:04:00 -
[255] - Quote
OmniBeton wrote:All those elite low-sec pvpers ... they will not be able to sit 24h/day at gate or station, drinking beer and killing every ship that tries to enter or leave low sec with little effort ... they will have to actually fly to belts after miners or into scan thoose dirty missioners on they safe spots, and CATCH them before they escape ... that's terrible, so terrible ....
Yes, they will be able to sit there and camp just like they've been doing all this time. The only thing that will change is the set of tactics they use.
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Arnst Atram
Loving A Ghost Sucks
5
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Posted - 2012.08.03 09:05:00 -
[256] - Quote
So basically, instead of Drakes tanking Gate Guns, we're getting Tornados that can outrange the Guns with Interceptor support that can now temporarily tank then guns, then warp away the moment you get Alpha'd.
You know, honestly, if i jump in to a Gate Camp and know I'm going to die, I'd rather actually be able to fight, even if there's no real way for me to win.
This is a silly, silly, silly idea. Gate guns were introduced for the benefit of newer players or somesuch nonsense right? I am a relatively new player, i don't even have 12m SP, yet i avoid Low like the plague precisely because of those Gate Guns which make it impossible to fight in anything other T1 ship than a Drake or Hurricane. |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc
Elysian Empire
180
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Posted - 2012.08.03 09:06:00 -
[257] - Quote
Though to be fair I don't mind the idea of gate guns being more of a threat to bigger ships, while also allowing for frigs to take part in fights, such as the damage increasing over time. That idea is fine (though it'll be a bit complicated, and has potential issues - how do you deal with the damage output when guns are cycling, or resetting the damage in general? Do you REALLY want to scale it to the point where no ship or fight can last more than four minutes? Etc).
The real issue though is this bloody awful "suspect" flag mechanic. From how it'll work with neutral reps in hisec to how it'll mean looting a wreck gets you popped by the gate / flagged for the whole universe to kill...
Sounds like someone is dead set on implementing the laziest, easiest mechanic possible even if it's to the detriment of the game. |
OmniBeton
OmniBeton Metatech
14
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Posted - 2012.08.03 09:12:00 -
[258] - Quote
Arnst Atram wrote:
This is a silly, silly, silly idea. Gate guns were introduced for the benefit of newer players or somesuch nonsense right? I am a relatively new player, i don't even have 12m SP, yet i avoid Low like the plague precisely because of those Gate Guns which make it impossible to fight in anything other T1 ship than a Drake or Hurricane.
Don't like guns - go to null. |
Mardrus
Wolfsbrigade
Lost Obsession
0
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Posted - 2012.08.03 09:29:00 -
[259] - Quote
OmniBeton wrote:Arnst Atram wrote:
This is a silly, silly, silly idea. Gate guns were introduced for the benefit of newer players or somesuch nonsense right? I am a relatively new player, i don't even have 12m SP, yet i avoid Low like the plague precisely because of those Gate Guns which make it impossible to fight in anything other T1 ship than a Drake or Hurricane.
Don't like guns - go to null.
Don't like gate camps! Stay in high. |
Vegare
The Legion of Darkness
55
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Posted - 2012.08.03 09:31:00 -
[260] - Quote
The issue why nobody from highsec wants to try out lowsec are not the pirates and their gatecamps, its the lack of incentive to figure out how to avoid or how to fight them and actually live in lowsec! And why would you, there is nothing to be gained in Lowsec except for PVPers.
Basically you won't be able to have real engagements on gates anymore, only ceptor camps to kill the cloakies and other travellers.
Everybody loses. |
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TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc
Elysian Empire
180
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Posted - 2012.08.03 09:36:00 -
[261] - Quote
Vegare wrote:Everybody loses.
The future of eve in a nutshell.
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Halcyon Ingenium
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
153
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Posted - 2012.08.03 09:39:00 -
[262] - Quote
[quote=Isalone]Quote: most of fleet/gang gate camps in low take place at gates.
Fixed that for you.
And as far as discussing, no one cares about your killboard padding gate camp.
They say that in learning the game Go, it is best to lose your first 50 games as soon as possible. This is because Go is complex, and the only way you will start to get an idea of strategy and play is by first sucking and failing as hard as you can. So...In EVE, it is best to get your first 50 deaths by combat as soon as possible. |
Patrakele
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
80
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Posted - 2012.08.03 09:41:00 -
[263] - Quote
1)Problem - too few people try low sec because of getting their asses handed on the first gate and never trying again.
2)Solution - buff sentry guns.
3)????
4) Profit = tears.
If this will bring more people to low sec, then it's a good change. Maybe players will have to work a bit more then get it easy mode. Yes its easy mode, if you disagree then you obviously fail at gate camp. |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc
Elysian Empire
181
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Posted - 2012.08.03 10:22:00 -
[264] - Quote
Patrakele wrote:1)Problem - too few people try low sec because of getting their asses handed on the first gate and never trying again.
2)Solution - buff sentry guns.
3)????
4) Profit = tears.
If this will bring more people to low sec, then it's a good change. Maybe players will have to work a bit more then get it easy mode. Yes its easy mode, if you disagree then you obviously fail at gate camp.
The fallacy here is saying that it'll bring more people to lowsec. It won't. The hisec baddies don't avoid lowsec because the entrance may be camped, they avoid it because the entire region of space is one which allows pvp.
Even if that wasn't the case, lets not ignore the fact that it's actually a huge buff to people looking for easy quick ganks, since interceptors can hang around and get initial tackles / uncloak things. |
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Lost Obsession
282
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Posted - 2012.08.03 10:32:00 -
[265] - Quote
Patrakele wrote:1)Problem - too few people try low sec because of getting their asses handed on the first gate and never trying again.
2)Solution - buff sentry guns.
3)????
4) Profit = tears.
If this will bring more people to low sec, then it's a good change. Maybe players will have to work a bit more then get it easy mode. Yes its easy mode, if you disagree then you obviously fail at gate camp.
No this change will turn every entry point gate camp into 2 intys and 12 nados that are sat at 151+ from the guns. You will still die in a fire, just in 2.1 seconds instead of the 30 the drake camps take.
The increasing damage will just kill fleet fights because pirates won't engage people on gates anymore and no one will follow a pirate gang to a belt they can't WTF pwn. If getting more people into losec was this changes goal, it fails to not only do that, but it will actually lower that number as more people give up on trying to find the ever decreasing pvpers in losec.
I say it again because I've read some post that seem to think you can perma tank gate guns. You can't without logi or so many people your cap regens enough to run a single rep to booster your armor back up to 100%. The idea that no logi ships can GCC forever on a gate showcases many peoples lack of understanding. CCP has gate guns do X amount of dps, people learned to deal by using guardians or enough people that they can rep up while the guns cycle around everyone.
If ccp wants to make that harder, a better idea is to increase the number of guns from 2 to 6 and have them shoot more than one person at a time. 6 guns shooting 3 people each.
The idea that carrier killing Gate guns will increase losec pvp/people is stupid. It will simply increase alpha, gangs ready to bounce. |
Nazowa
UK Corp
RAZOR Alliance
8
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Posted - 2012.08.03 10:40:00 -
[266] - Quote
Wonderfull changes... |
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2012.08.03 10:51:00 -
[267] - Quote
This is all ,lets make game more dumb like WoW is.
Yes there was gate camps,but you can use map and avoid them.You can use dir scan and see if there is station camp.Where is problem?
CCP Greyscale vision is so bad that is hilarious.He is making crime watch more simple.Can flipper and GCC idea and in same time we are getting barges with ore cargo size of jetcan?Why the hell someone will use jetcan if you have cargo so big ?
Arenas?That is so so WoW and GW2 .And now gate guns ,to make and try of solo pvp even more bad.Like warp to 0 was not enough.
It is funny how people that defend this pile of crap streaming from this part of devs are proud they are playing "hardest mmo" ever ,but in same time don't have any problem to constant make it more dumb plans.
If caps were problem you could fix that simple ,not just blap universal idea cause you are lazy to think about outcome of your plan on other players that don't use caps as ships.This is just showing more that certain devs don't play this game much.And what is worse it looks they are kinda trying to lure more "lets hold hands" people.
Low sec is last place of real pvp,there was camps but use map and figure out how to pass trough.Real pvp is not just big fleet of xy cattle talking smack in local and enjoying TiDi while they press F1.There is also players like Kil2 and many like them that enjoy playing on smaller scale and use brain more often.
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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
360
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Posted - 2012.08.03 10:53:00 -
[268] - Quote
Depending on the actual numbers, this could turn out to be very bad for low-sec PvP. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that every fight I've had at least started at the gate, and low-sec PvP sort of relies on the idea of at least one side being willing to go GCC to hit the other guy.
Right now, the guns switch off their target after 30 seconds, which means that the majority of fights in low-sec are done in ships that have the tank to survive the incoming DPS of the guns for that long (they have roughly 400 DPS, if I recall correctly).
If the guns now hit everyone who goes GCC, then that means that the side that goes GCC will be at a massive disadvantage if the guns damage is not significantly reduced. This means that no one is going to be willing to go GCC. Great for those random individual ships that pop through and industrials (I fully support this part and do not shoot non-enemy industrials anyways), but absolutely terrible for any actual sort of fleet action, since no one is going to be willing to go GCC on an enemy fleet when your entire fleet will suddenly be taking damage capable of killing a carrier in 4 1/2 minutes.
CCP are going to have to be very, very careful how they balance this change if they are going to try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
1469
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Posted - 2012.08.03 11:02:00 -
[269] - Quote
Sure, I'll make a note to have another look at this and get some more player feedback when we start finalizing the designs. |
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Caitlyn Tufy
Refuge of Hope
Lemniskate
22
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Posted - 2012.08.03 11:10:00 -
[270] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:The fallacy here is saying that it'll bring more people to lowsec. It won't. The hisec baddies don't avoid lowsec because the entrance may be camped, they avoid it because the entire region of space is one which allows pvp.
Respectfully, I would disagree, it's a thing of perception. Let's take a global warming for an example: we are continuously warned that heating up the atmosphere will melt the ice, thereby heightening the water levels. First reaction of a western reader to this is "oh god, oh god, we're all gonna die!" Then ice starts melting and - nothing at all happens. And the western reader goes "haha, silly scientists, false alarm!". Meanwhile, whole Pacific islands are being swallowed by the sea. Thus, from a perspective of a western reader, global warming is a big joke, but from a perspective of a pacific island citizen, it's a very true threat to his existence.
It's similar with low sec. All that a highsec carebear hears about it is "gate camps 24/7, EVERYWHERE!" So when he first enters low sec, he goes "oh god, oh god, we're all gonna die!" in a cloaked frigate. If he ends up landing on a gate camp, that confirms his beliefs and he'll never try again. But if he doesn't find a camp, he goes "hey, wait a second, it's all a lie, riches ahoy!" and becomes a low sec player.
This change can be worked around, of course. A few carriers, well coordinated team and you've go a working camp. However, I still believe it will reduce the number of gate camps, improving low sec perception for high sec players. Sure, there will still be a risk, but in their minds, the risk will reduce and with more players, the actual chance of getting attacked per player will reduce.
So yes, I believe that in the long run, this change is good for low sec, though the opportunities will shift from mainly gate camping to hunting down people with scans.
Disclaimer: I'm in low sec about 30% of my playtime at the moment. In all that time, I've landed on one gate camp and made it out alive. So yes, I do know that the boogie man has less teeth than the stories tell ;) |
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