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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
2056
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Posted - 2012.08.03 18:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
As part of our ship rebalancing initiative our developers inspected the Mining Barges and Exhumers. Several changes were made to give our players a much better range of options while they still have to carefully consider which ship might be the best tool in the current situation.
Read the latest devblog from CCP Tallest about the Mining Barge ship balancing here.
The rebalanced mining barges and exhumers will be introduced first in EVE Online: Inferno 1.2. We welcome you to use this thread for constructive feedback, thank you! CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
611
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Don't forget that you also adjusted their mineral requirements. At least if info from SiSi is any indication. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
fofofo |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
43
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Posted - 2012.08.03 18:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
finally
and nearly 1st post ... at least sliver medal |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
365
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Don't forget that you also adjusted their mineral requirements. At least if info from SiSi is any indication. Posted this on the deployment thread but the materal list for the rigs is still missing also. |
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CCP Paradox
418
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Posted - 2012.08.03 18:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Happy Mining Day :3 CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Mashie Saldana
Veto. Veto Corp
564
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Posted - 2012.08.03 18:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
In before Chribba in mining devblog. Dominique Vasilkovsky Mashie Saldana Monica Foulkes |
Macsadbro
luna Oscura Clandestina Armada The Gurlstas Associates
2
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Posted - 2012.08.03 18:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
in before chribba as well
Can't wait for the changes!
Will be a very excited care bear when these changes come out! |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
266
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Don't forget that you also adjusted their mineral requirements. At least if info from SiSi is any indication.
I saw that too and tried to go on a spending spree for retrievers before anyone else noticed... evidentally many people had noticed
IB4C on a mining DEV Blog =========================================================
EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% Nullsec residents. EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about... |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
381
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
i think the hulk was tank is still a touch to squishy... and i hope the patch notes are right on the 28000+5%/level on the mack, not hte current test server 25000+5%/level cause taht would be the ****. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders MPA
107
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Posted - 2012.08.03 18:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Also before chribba? Nice progressions here. Do the exhumers also require Astrogeology III? Or up to V? I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it. |
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Madam Isk
Burque Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2012.08.03 18:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
Will existing hulks get their rig's "refunded"? I'm sure I'm not the only one that invested in T2 cargo rigs for my hulk that are now worthless so I'm hoping they will be de-equipped so I can sell or re-purpose them. |
Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
i'm still doubting about the tiny mining output difference between the different barges. mostly between covetor/hulk and retrivier/machinkaw.
the barges specialized on tank and cargo have like 5x more abilities on these, while the barges specialized on mining output have only 10% bonus... well my corpmates who mine a lot say that 10% is enough, but i consider having -10% yield and 5x more cargo, (so 5x more time to forget to empty my cargo while chatting/afking) way more interesting. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
315
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Posted - 2012.08.03 18:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
I am glad the idiot tank on the hulk was removed |
olan2005
Homicidal Tendencees Ethereal Dawn
2
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Posted - 2012.08.03 18:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
good work but could u at least increae the cargo hold in the hulk for the following reason . Hulks are designed by this for group op as such will chew through at least 3 types of diffrent ore so u want to be able to switch crystal sets for that . SO A hulk should be able to hold 12 crystals or 4 sets of crystals for these ops |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
315
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
olan2005 wrote:good work but could u at least increae the cargo hold in the hulk for the following reason . Hulks are designed by this for group op as such will chew through at least 3 types of diffrent ore so u want to be able to switch crystal sets for that . SO A hulk should be able to hold 12 crystals or 4 sets of crystals for these ops interestingly this is specifically addressed by the devblog
"no" |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
611
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
olan2005 wrote:good work but could u at least increae the cargo hold in the hulk for the following reason . Hulks are designed by this for group op as such will chew through at least 3 types of diffrent ore so u want to be able to switch crystal sets for that . SO A hulk should be able to hold 12 crystals or 4 sets of crystals for these ops
As they're designed for group ops, group members - such as orcas or rorquals - will be able to carry the spare crystals for them.
Not to, you know, use your own argument against you or anything. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
fofofo |
Overs
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2012.08.03 18:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Express advantages of the procurer with speed and agility instead of an obscene tank. Also the procurer could have added defensive capability with 2-4 turret hardpoints and the extra fitting (cpu, cap, grid, and extra high slots) to handle medium turrets. Change the procurer to something like:
Mining Barge skill bonus per level: 5% bonus to agility (and/or velocity) 12.5% reduction to strip miner and ice harvester duration
role bonus: 2% bonus to cpu penalty of Mining Laser Upgrades per level in mining barge (perhaps for all exhumers and mining barges)
Attribute Changes Structure Hitpoints: 1,250 HP
inertia modifier: I don't know the formula for this but I think these ships should be at least as agile as a cruiser. I imagine something like 0.525x
Ore Hold Capacity: 4,000 m3
Armor Hitpoints: 1,250 HP
Shield Capacity: 1,550 HP
Max Velocity: 170 m/sec |
MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
36
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
You can carry 4 sets 1 in your Stips and 3 in your hold. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
103
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
The ore hold on the Hulk on Sisi is at 7500. Is there a planned boost or is there an error in the dev blog? |
Sarik Olecar
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
olan2005 wrote:good work but could u at least increae the cargo hold in the hulk for the following reason . Hulks are designed by this for group op as such will chew through at least 3 types of diffrent ore so u want to be able to switch crystal sets for that . SO A hulk should be able to hold 12 crystals or 4 sets of crystals for these ops
I'm pretty sure that table in the dev blog explicitly says the hulk can hold 4 sets a spare crystals... |
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CCP Punkturis
C C P C C P Alliance
3100
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
Team Super Friends, your BEST friends! Gÿà EVE User Interface Programmer Gÿà GÖÑ Team Super Friends GÖÑ @CCP_Punkturis My Dev Blogs |
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Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
43
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Posted - 2012.08.03 18:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
not to forget ... (numbers from sisi)
drone capacity / bandwith 25 m3 / 25 Mbit/sec for Procurer and Retriever 50 m3 / 50 Mbit/sec for Covetor and all exhumers
more defence for Skiff ... good choice! |
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders MPA
107
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:The ore hold on the Hulk on Sisi is at 7500. Is there a planned boost or is there an error in the dev blog? Neither, this is as planned.
I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
381
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
Overs wrote:Express advantages of the procurer with speed and agility instead of an obscene tank. Also the procurer could have added defensive capability with 2-4 turret hardpoints and the extra fitting (cpu, cap, grid, and extra high slots) to handle medium turrets. Change the procurer to something like:
Mining Barge skill bonus per level: 5% bonus to agility (and/or velocity) 12.5% reduction to strip miner and ice harvester duration
role bonus: 2% bonus to cpu penalty of Mining Laser Upgrades per level in mining barge (perhaps for all exhumers and mining barges)
Attribute Changes Structure Hitpoints: 1,250 HP
inertia modifier: I don't know the formula for this but I think these ships should be at least as agile as a cruiser. I imagine something like 0.525x
Ore Hold Capacity: 4,000 m3
Armor Hitpoints: 1,250 HP
Shield Capacity: 1,550 HP
Max Velocity: 170 m/sec
no
If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Taawuz
Enterprise Estonia Northern Coalition.
8
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Posted - 2012.08.03 18:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
I, for one, welcome our new mining barges.
Not that I'd ever use one... |
Matthew Toomb
Cobalt Industry and Acquisitions Black Thorne Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
Can you guys please think this through just a little bit before you finalize? Those of us noobie idiots who've spent months training for Hulks only to have them downgraded to a piddly craptastic support miner- I assume we'll be ISKompensated for the hundreds of millions of $$ we've spent on our soon to be useless ships correct?
Oh, and will this "uber" retriever at least get a third strip slot? Or just a bloated cargobay?
Glad I manufacture retrievers with an original BPO though, the price is about to go WAY up. |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
92
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
The urge to mine is returning after a nearly six year long slumber. |
Geksz
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 18:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
So is that so easy to store a lot of people's mining crystals on orcas and rorquals? Is it easy to use the dedicated corp hangars with containers? Do any of the miners want to put their crystals on someone elses orcas every time they go mining in 0.0? If one wants to mine all ore types in 0.0 how much space will it take to bring all the required crystals for all the Hulks in the fleet?
Just asking...
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Arthay
5
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Posted - 2012.08.03 18:59:00 -
[29] - Quote
\o/ exactly then when i can't play, now i can at least read . Veld for the Veld God!
If you find any misspelling or grammar errors, your allowed to keep them. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
103
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:00:00 -
[30] - Quote
Anvil44 wrote:Droxlyn wrote:The ore hold on the Hulk on Sisi is at 7500. Is there a planned boost or is there an error in the dev blog? Neither, this is as planned.
DevBlog wrote: Ship Ore hold Mining cycles Cargo hold Spare crystal sets Hulk 8500 1 350 4
PatchNotes wrote: Ore hold capacity: 8500
So, I'm going to guess SiSi is not up to date on this change.
Drox |
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Tric Starless
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
9
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Posted - 2012.08.03 19:02:00 -
[31] - Quote
Is this a typo? : "Skiff and Retriever are getting hit points comparable to a battleship"
Because the EHP chart doesn't match up... Think you meant Skiff and Procurer? |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
249
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:03:00 -
[32] - Quote
olan2005 wrote:good work but could u at least increae the cargo hold in the hulk for the following reason . Hulks are designed by this for group op as such will chew through at least 3 types of diffrent ore so u want to be able to switch crystal sets for that . SO A hulk should be able to hold 12 crystals or 4 sets of crystals for these ops
350m3 / 25m3 per mining crystal = 14 crystals - 1 for swap space |
Desmont McCallock
201
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:04:00 -
[33] - Quote
olan2005 wrote:good work but could u at least increae the cargo hold in the hulk for the following reason . Hulks are designed by this for group op as such will chew through at least 3 types of diffrent ore so u want to be able to switch crystal sets for that . SO A hulk should be able to hold 12 crystals or 4 sets of crystals for these ops Read the blog again.
CCP Tallest wrote:The reduction of the cargo holds does have an unfortunate side effect for miners; there is much less space for mining crystals. We alleviated this slightly by cutting the volume of mining crystals in half, but it is now something that miners have to plan for before they go mining. |
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
913
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
IB4 Chribba
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Desmont McCallock
201
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:08:00 -
[35] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:The ore hold on the Hulk on Sisi is at 7500. Is there a planned boost or is there an error in the dev blog? Read the blog again.CCP Tallest wrote:Again, the numbers assume perfect skills, implants and fleet bonuses. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
103
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:08:00 -
[36] - Quote
BTW, you cannot fit a packaged shuttle in any of the new ship's cargo holds. They are 500 m3 packaged. Could the holds be at least this big so you can pack your return ride? |
Ogogov
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:09:00 -
[37] - Quote
Quote:All the barges are getting their tanks adjusted to favor shields rather than structure hit points
Meanwhile, Gallente combat ships still favor structure hit points. HURRRRRRR. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
103
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:10:00 -
[38] - Quote
Desmont McCallock wrote:Droxlyn wrote:The ore hold on the Hulk on Sisi is at 7500. Is there a planned boost or is there an error in the dev blog? Read the blog again. CCP Tallest wrote:Again, the numbers assume perfect skills, implants and fleet bonuses.
There is no skill or item modifier for the Ore hold on the Hulk. It is a flat value that everybody gets. Please inspect your glasses. (Also, I do have perfect skills.) |
Tantabobo
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:11:00 -
[39] - Quote
Matthew Toomb wrote:Can you guys please think this through just a little bit before you finalize? Those of us noobie idiots who've spent months training for Hulks only to have them downgraded to a piddly craptastic support miner- I assume we'll be ISKompensated for the hundreds of millions of $$ we've spent on our soon to be useless ships correct?
Oh, and will this "uber" retriever at least get a third strip slot? Or just a bloated cargobay?
Glad I manufacture retrievers with an original BPO though, the price is about to go WAY up.
Please explain how the Hulk is now craptastic? It is the best mining barge (in terms of yield/hr) it just now requires jetcan mining or support. (Both of which were used anyway if you cared about yield/hr). So what exactly changed that is making you so unhappy?
--Tanta |
Captain Megadeath
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
72
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:18:00 -
[40] - Quote
Matthew Toomb wrote: Those of us noobie idiots who've spent months training for Hulks only to have them downgraded to a piddly craptastic support miner- I assume we'll be ISKompensated for the hundreds of millions of $$ we've spent on our soon to be useless ships correct?
how about NO ya big frickin ejit.
The skills you learned to use the hulk benefit the Mack as well. Simple thing to do is that YOU sell your hulk now and buy a Mack while the prices are still low(ish).
No-one was compensated after the "Nanonerf", so miners shouldn't either. And I say that AS a miner.
Or you could, you know, actually interact with people here, afterall it is an multiplayer game, not a single player one. |
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Jack bubu
GK inc. Pandemic Legion
355
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tantabobo wrote:Matthew Toomb wrote:Can you guys please think this through just a little bit before you finalize? Those of us noobie idiots who've spent months training for Hulks only to have them downgraded to a piddly craptastic support miner- I assume we'll be ISKompensated for the hundreds of millions of $$ we've spent on our soon to be useless ships correct?
Oh, and will this "uber" retriever at least get a third strip slot? Or just a bloated cargobay?
Glad I manufacture retrievers with an original BPO though, the price is about to go WAY up. Please explain how the Hulk is now craptastic? It is the best mining barge (in terms of yield/hr) it just now requires jetcan mining or support. (Both of which were used anyway if you cared about yield/hr). So what exactly changed that is making you so unhappy? I will agree that the change to how many crystals you can hold is a tad annoying (especially for the largely solo jetcan miner) but it is merely an annoyance not something that will greatly impact your normal mining routine. --Tanta he cant go afk in it anymore ofcourse |
Celebris Nexterra
Lowsec Static
47
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:23:00 -
[42] - Quote
Dibs on using a baiting/scouting Procurer for my next fleet roam
Also IB4C! |
Qual
Infinity Engine
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:23:00 -
[43] - Quote
Matthew Toomb wrote:Can you guys please think this through just a little bit before you finalize? Those of us noobie idiots who've spent months training for Hulks only to have them downgraded to a piddly craptastic support miner- I assume we'll be ISKompensated for the hundreds of millions of $$ we've spent on our soon to be useless ships correct?
Oh, and will this "uber" retriever at least get a third strip slot? Or just a bloated cargobay?
Glad I manufacture retrievers with an original BPO though, the price is about to go WAY up.
You want some cheese with that whine?
Seriously, did you even read the numbers in the blog? All your questions is answered in there. Hulk is still the king of mining yield, its just not as thick skinned as it used to be.
And the lower tiers get some love as well. Those getting hit the hardest are the Macinaw ice miners, as thier ship is no longer king of its former profession. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
103
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:26:00 -
[44] - Quote
As far as crystals go, when I used to mine in normal belts, I would bookmark 2 or 3 optimal spots that would get 1/2 or 1/3 or more of the asteroids in the belt. This would mean that I would place a secure container at these points and stash extra crystals in those. So, newbies mine into GSC for more space. Vets stash crystals in GSC for variety. |
Kaori Ohara
Babylon Knights Test Alliance Please Ignore
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:33:00 -
[45] - Quote
for Skiff and Mackinaw, the extra HP seems not bad, but using little, I will not speak too much about them. where I am skeptical, it is on the lower shield resistance bonus; the Skiff or mackinaw it should not be too annoying, but the hulk despite the use of teamwork, it may become truly "break up" because it will be even harder to keep a bad arrival of NPC of 0.0, something that hurt, a real player who cares, even with the bonus of 7.5% they kill us very fast, really fast, so this is the game and that's how I like it |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
889
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:39:00 -
[46] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:I am glad the idiot tank on the hulk was removed Huh? Given the way I tank my Hulk, it will now have an improved EHP. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Jaques D'Builder
Redbull Advanced Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:40:00 -
[47] - Quote
So I suppose the question is. Does the ore go to the ore hold after the mining cycle completes, or do you have to manually move it from the cargo to the ore hold.
If you have to move it, this will drive mineral prices up because AFK miners will be nonexistent. |
Tantabobo
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:44:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jaques D'Builder wrote:So I suppose the question is. Does the ore go to the ore hold after the mining cycle completes, or do you have to manually move it from the cargo to the ore hold.
If you have to move it, this will drive mineral prices up because AFK miners will be nonexistent.
Given that the cargohold of these ships is now smaller than the weakest strips yield, it would be logical to assume that it goes directly into the ore hold.
--Tanta |
Elijah Craig
Trask Industries Li3 Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:45:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jaques D'Builder wrote:So I suppose the question is. Does the ore go to the ore hold after the mining cycle completes, or do you have to manually move it from the cargo to the ore hold.
If you have to move it, this will drive mineral prices up because AFK miners will be nonexistent. It's an ore hold. Ore goes in it. Because it's for the ore. The ore goes in there. |
Tantabobo
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:46:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jack bubu wrote:Tantabobo wrote:Matthew Toomb wrote:Can you guys please think this through just a little bit before you finalize? Those of us noobie idiots who've spent months training for Hulks only to have them downgraded to a piddly craptastic support miner- I assume we'll be ISKompensated for the hundreds of millions of $$ we've spent on our soon to be useless ships correct?
Oh, and will this "uber" retriever at least get a third strip slot? Or just a bloated cargobay?
Glad I manufacture retrievers with an original BPO though, the price is about to go WAY up. Please explain how the Hulk is now craptastic? It is the best mining barge (in terms of yield/hr) it just now requires jetcan mining or support. (Both of which were used anyway if you cared about yield/hr). So what exactly changed that is making you so unhappy? I will agree that the change to how many crystals you can hold is a tad annoying (especially for the largely solo jetcan miner) but it is merely an annoyance not something that will greatly impact your normal mining routine. --Tanta he cant go afk in it anymore ofcourse
Good point, I had not thought of that. I take it all back, this is a horrible change. What are all of the noobie idiots suppose to do now that their hulk can no longer afk mine for them.
--Tanta |
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Jaques D'Builder
Redbull Advanced Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:51:00 -
[51] - Quote
Elijah Craig wrote:Jaques D'Builder wrote:So I suppose the question is. Does the ore go to the ore hold after the mining cycle completes, or do you have to manually move it from the cargo to the ore hold.
If you have to move it, this will drive mineral prices up because AFK miners will be nonexistent. It's an ore hold. Ore goes in it. Because it's for the ore. The ore goes in there.
Hey fail troll. Remember the orca? If you use mining drones, it goes t to the cargo and you have to move it to the Ore hold.
It's better to be silent and be thought an idiot than to say something and remove all doubt.
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Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
104
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:53:00 -
[52] - Quote
BTW, to fit a 10MN afterburner, you won't be doing any mining. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
889
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:54:00 -
[53] - Quote
Jaques D'Builder wrote:Elijah Craig wrote:Jaques D'Builder wrote:So I suppose the question is. Does the ore go to the ore hold after the mining cycle completes, or do you have to manually move it from the cargo to the ore hold.
If you have to move it, this will drive mineral prices up because AFK miners will be nonexistent. It's an ore hold. Ore goes in it. Because it's for the ore. The ore goes in there. Hey fail troll. Remember the orca? If you use mining drones, it goes to the cargo and you have to move it to the Ore hold. It's better to be silent and be thought an idiot than to say something and remove all doubt. Also, thanks Tanta. Trolling aside, on Sisi it goes into the ore hold. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Fade Toblack
Per.ly The 20 Minuters
25
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Posted - 2012.08.03 19:56:00 -
[54] - Quote
All the ELITE miners, that are so elite that they can't work it out are making me lol lots.
Matthew Toomb wrote:Those of us noobie idiots who've spent months training for Hulks
Maybe CCP should be taking skill points away - after all you now have *3* options for mining, and your existing skills will bonus any/all of those three hulls! You're obviously getting an unfair advantage from the revamp.
Matthew Toomb wrote:our soon to be useless ships correct?
Yeah pity the Hulk is now completly incapable of mining, and you're being forced to switch to a T1 BS with mining lazors.
Jaques D'Builder wrote:because AFK miners will be nonexistent.
Yeah they're all going to rage-quit the game, because they're not clever enough to realise that if you want to afk mine you can afk for *even longer* in a Mackinaw. |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 19:59:00 -
[55] - Quote
what is still missing?
Change ice harvester II to 60tf and 12 MW
Then you'll be able to just swap out the mining gear when changing from ore/mercoxit to ice mining. |
Jaques D'Builder
Redbull Advanced Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:00:00 -
[56] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Jaques D'Builder wrote:Elijah Craig wrote:Jaques D'Builder wrote:So I suppose the question is. Does the ore go to the ore hold after the mining cycle completes, or do you have to manually move it from the cargo to the ore hold.
If you have to move it, this will drive mineral prices up because AFK miners will be nonexistent. It's an ore hold. Ore goes in it. Because it's for the ore. The ore goes in there. Hey fail troll. Remember the orca? If you use mining drones, it goes to the cargo and you have to move it to the Ore hold. It's better to be silent and be thought an idiot than to say something and remove all doubt. Also, thanks Tanta. Trolling aside, on Sisi it goes into the ore hold.
Thank you very much. You are a true gentleman.
|
Vrykolakasis
Trinity Operations Aurora Irae
42
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:02:00 -
[57] - Quote
I'm hardly a miner, and it might be far from worth the effort, but a dedicated ORE gas miner would be cool. |
Sho Menao
Black Core Federation Black Core Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:02:00 -
[58] - Quote
Am I the only one noticing a 15% reduction in max ore and merc mining and a 20% reduction in max ice mining from current absolute maximums. Mining buff is actually a stealth nerf. \o/ |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1743
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:03:00 -
[59] - Quote
As a member of the pirate community, I highly support this course of action. I would additionally request that you consider a large ore bay miner for use in truly hostile areas (low sec and WH space comes to mind) that is agile and somewhat fast.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
91
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:04:00 -
[60] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Happy Mining Day :3
We alleviated this slightly by cutting the volume of mining crystals in half, but it is now something that miners have to plan for before they go mining.
Plan to redock numerous times over a mining session.
Not exactly happy mining. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
|
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:04:00 -
[61] - Quote
Sho Menao wrote:Am I the only one noticing a 15% reduction in max ore and merc mining and a 20% reduction in max ice mining from current absolute maximums. Mining buff is actually a stealth nerf. \o/
did you include the mining rigs for mercoxit and ice? |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
63
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:05:00 -
[62] - Quote
Tantabobo wrote:I will agree that the change to how many crystals you can hold is a tad annoying (especially for the largely solo jetcan miner) but it is merely an annoyance not something that will greatly impact your normal mining routine. This is the only gripe I have about the entire thing. Folks won't want to deposit their crystals in the fleet support ship without some mechanism for telling who owns which crystal (assuming they even trust their corpmates, which isn't always the case). It's also a huge kick in the nuts to jetcan miners in deep 0.0 who live in neglected areas and are able to go an entire day without seeing anybody else, or have an intelligence network able to let them set up shop with a full set of everything, and just spend the whole day blasting rocks (like I did in J-OK0C a couple years ago). |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
271
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:07:00 -
[63] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Happy Mining Day :3
We alleviated this slightly by cutting the volume of mining crystals in half, but it is now something that miners have to plan for before they go mining. Plan to redock numerous times over a mining session. Not exactly happy mining. How often do you change crystals? |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
91
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:08:00 -
[64] - Quote
Jack bubu wrote:Tantabobo wrote:Matthew Toomb wrote:Can you guys please think this through just a little bit before you finalize? Those of us noobie idiots who've spent months training for Hulks only to have them downgraded to a piddly craptastic support miner- I assume we'll be ISKompensated for the hundreds of millions of $$ we've spent on our soon to be useless ships correct?
Oh, and will this "uber" retriever at least get a third strip slot? Or just a bloated cargobay?
Glad I manufacture retrievers with an original BPO though, the price is about to go WAY up. Please explain how the Hulk is now craptastic? It is the best mining barge (in terms of yield/hr) it just now requires jetcan mining or support. (Both of which were used anyway if you cared about yield/hr). So what exactly changed that is making you so unhappy? I will agree that the change to how many crystals you can hold is a tad annoying (especially for the largely solo jetcan miner) but it is merely an annoyance not something that will greatly impact your normal mining routine. --Tanta he cant go afk in it anymore ofcourse
How the hell does one go afk while mining with a 104second cycle timer on the mining lasers? Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
536
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:09:00 -
[65] - Quote
Atum wrote:Tantabobo wrote:I will agree that the change to how many crystals you can hold is a tad annoying (especially for the largely solo jetcan miner) but it is merely an annoyance not something that will greatly impact your normal mining routine. This is the only gripe I have about the entire thing. Folks won't want to deposit their crystals in the fleet support ship without some mechanism for telling who owns which crystal (assuming they even trust their corpmates, which isn't always the case). It's also a huge kick in the nuts to jetcan miners in deep 0.0 who live in neglected areas and are able to go an entire day without seeing anybody else, or have an intelligence network able to let them set up shop with a full set of everything, and just spend the whole day blasting rocks (like I did in J-OK0C a couple years ago).
Set up a few GSC for crystal storage? FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
91
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:09:00 -
[66] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Happy Mining Day :3
We alleviated this slightly by cutting the volume of mining crystals in half, but it is now something that miners have to plan for before they go mining. Plan to redock numerous times over a mining session. Not exactly happy mining. How often do you change crystals?
Often enough. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:09:00 -
[67] - Quote
Medium Ice Havester Accelerator I and Medium Mercoxit Mining Crystal Optimization I currently have 250 calibration cost.
So, on one hand CCP is making the hulk the ultimate mining vessel in terms of yield. On the other hand they restrict it to ore and either ice or mercoxit!
That is not nice!
Already the implant slots for the mining crystals stop you from becoming both a perfect ice and perfect ore miner. So, please give us the opportunity to fit one of each rigs ... with the side effect that two of the same kind won't work at all. |
Etharion Calthon
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:11:00 -
[68] - Quote
Ya know, I'm rather tired about all this crystal blather. If its such a big deal, why not put a medium standard container in your hold? This takes 325m3, still allows a 25m3 switch out space....and you can carry 2 additional crystals in the can with a bit of room left over to stash a couple pieces of lewt from that faction rat drop.
You might even have to occasionally put a crystal in a jetcan while you get everything organized....God forbid. But at least its a solution. |
Carola Kessler
Lost Sisters Of New Eden Freelancer Coalition
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:12:00 -
[69] - Quote
Sho Menao wrote:Am I the only one noticing a 15% reduction in max ore and merc mining and a 20% reduction in max ice mining from current absolute maximums. Mining buff is actually a stealth nerf. \o/
IT is a nerf....and still someone will still say its a buff....also the decreasing from the Ressist bonus for the Exhumers or removal IS a nerf.
So...Conclusion...Hulk will get less used in hisec and the Mackinaw and Skiff will get seen more often after the patch.
Technically, the whole rebalancing from the Mining barges and Exhumers is morely a nerf then a buff or a adjustement to the current state of affairs meaning the still growing tendency to Gank Exhumers and Mining barges. Only Exception are the Procurer and Skiff which are a joke in its selfs, beeing the smallest Mining barges / Exhumers now beeing those with the biggest EHP buff and stuff, is just ridicoulous and totally out of sense.
Whudevah...as stated above, Hulk will be seen less often in hisec getting used for Mining, Mack got the new Crown handed beeing the best Mining Ship solution...so i'm going to lean back and watching what will hapens after 8th of August and listening to the upcoming whine threads from all sides, Miners, Gankers and also Industrials ( Producers ) for the next weeks / months after Patch takes effect.
Sincerly
Carola Kessler |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
63
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:12:00 -
[70] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Happy Mining Day :3
We alleviated this slightly by cutting the volume of mining crystals in half, but it is now something that miners have to plan for before they go mining. Plan to redock numerous times over a mining session. Not exactly happy mining. How often do you change crystals? Depends on the belt and what you're mining, but it can be fairly often. Veld and scord both melt rather quickly (just not as quickly as highsec), while the ABC's (and that damned plagio) can last a good while. When you know what you're after (say, Mercox only, or the massive spod in a grav site) it's not an issue, but if you're belting to get the industry level up, you pretty much need to bring some of everything, and that's where the problem lies. |
|
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
91
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:13:00 -
[71] - Quote
The rest of the changes do rule though, don't get me wrong. I have always hated having the crystals mixed in with the ore.
But 2 spares for 4 sets of crystals is not enough spares, when you want to use up the used crystals. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
612
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:13:00 -
[72] - Quote
Sho Menao wrote:Am I the only one noticing a 15% reduction in max ore and merc mining and a 20% reduction in max ice mining from current absolute maximums. Mining buff is actually a stealth nerf. \o/
Ore yield is unchanged, you're smoking something nasty. Likewise, ice yield (assuming orca bonuses because who the heck mines ice in nullsec) seems to be unchanged as well. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
fofofo |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
63
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:16:00 -
[73] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Set up a few GSC for crystal storage? In static belts, this is a viable option. For grav sites, though, it's additional pain for questionable gain (Case 1: You anchor the can, but barges are so slow that by the time you shuttle back and forth, you could have just gone back to base. Case 2: The belt has despawned, and now you have to fetch your probing ship, find the new site. Switch to your hauler to go to the old site, unanchor, reanchor. Switch to your barge. And now you're back to Case 1.) |
Freelancer117
so you want to be a Hero
32
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:16:00 -
[74] - Quote
wow a new mining frigate, this sh!t is real Eve Radio |
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
162
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:17:00 -
[75] - Quote
How did you calculate ice yields, because as far as I can tell, your numbers are very off
Based on the stats posted in the patch notes (which coincide for the current numbers on the test server for yields). I show this:
Hulk - 120.07 sec cycle time, 89.95 ice/hr, Mackinaw - 86.50 sec cycle time, 83.24 ice/hr Skiff - 47.52 sec cycle time, 75.76 ice/hr
Which is massively higher than yours (found here)
Hulk - 73 ice/hr, Mackinaw - 68 ice/hr Skiff - 61 ice/hr
I'm inclined to agree with my numbers more than those in the dev blog, because the new hulk is supposed to equal the old mackinaw in terms of yield. And the old mackinaw pulled in 90.06 ice/hr, and my new calculations show 89.95. Yours show 73. You must not be actually calculating with max skills, max implants, max boosts |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
536
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:18:00 -
[76] - Quote
Atum wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Set up a few GSC for crystal storage? In static belts, this is a viable option. For grav sites, though, it's additional pain for questionable gain (Case 1: You anchor the can, but barges are so slow that by the time you shuttle back and forth, you could have just gone back to base. Case 2: The belt has despawned, and now you have to fetch your probing ship, find the new site. Switch to your hauler to go to the old site, unanchor, reanchor. Switch to your barge. And now you're back to Case 1.)
Good Point. Hadn't really thought about grav sites. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
612
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:22:00 -
[77] - Quote
Jita Bloodtear wrote:How did you calculate ice yields, because as far as I can tell, your numbers are very off
Unless I did my math wrong 73 blocks/hr (on the hulk) is in line with what a perfect mackinaw with a perfect orca booster will get right now. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
fofofo |
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
162
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:26:00 -
[78] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Jita Bloodtear wrote:How did you calculate ice yields, because as far as I can tell, your numbers are very off Unless I did my math wrong 73 blocks/hr (on the hulk) is in line with what a perfect mackinaw with a perfect orca booster will get right now. See above real fast, I just wrote a post real fast to get a place holder, then edited it in with more detailed information. My information is pulled from direct dealings off the test server, using rorqual boosts with mindlink, perfect miners, max yield fit, perfect implants. Orca boosts != max boosts. But that might help to explain things. |
MezriDax
BlackWatch Industrial Group Intrepid Crossing
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:27:00 -
[79] - Quote
Glad I got rid of my Mackinaws last week :) I should have offloaded the Skiff as well *sigh* btw, great job screwing over miners.... again. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
612
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:28:00 -
[80] - Quote
Jita Bloodtear wrote:corestwo wrote:Jita Bloodtear wrote:How did you calculate ice yields, because as far as I can tell, your numbers are very off Unless I did my math wrong 73 blocks/hr (on the hulk) is in line with what a perfect mackinaw with a perfect orca booster will get right now. See above real fast, I just wrote a post real fast to get a place holder, then edited it in with more detailed information. My information is pulled from direct dealings off the test server, using rorqual boosts with mindlink, perfect miners, max yield fit, perfect implants. Orca boosts != max boosts. But that might help to explain things. Orca boosts don't equal max boosts yes, but the ore yield does line up assuming rorqual boosts, and orca boost are a reasonable assumption for ice considering that the overwhelming majority of ice mining occurs in highsec.
If you want to feel superior because you caught ccp out on a little mistake, be my guest, but their numbers are accurate for a reasonable set of assumptions. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
fofofo |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
354
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:29:00 -
[81] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Jita Bloodtear wrote:How did you calculate ice yields, because as far as I can tell, your numbers are very off Unless I did my math wrong 73 blocks/hr (on the hulk) is in line with what a perfect mackinaw with a perfect orca booster will get right now.
could you please post your maths? i'm pretty much getting the same ore yields (i think the difference is that i'm not truncating values)
however the ore yields ccp posted are way different to those on sisi. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
612
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:33:00 -
[82] - Quote
My "math" is looking at a maxed out rorqual boosted Hulk in EFT and seeing that it gets 2857m3/minute in yield. 2857m3 x 60 minutes is 171,420m3 per hour, which means 1,171,420 units of veld per hour, which is in line with what the blog says after accounting for the fact that I didn't bother to plug implants into the miner profile in EFT.
So, assuming the information posted in the blog here is accurate, things don't change. If sisi has different information, that's another matter. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
fofofo |
Jaques D'Builder
Redbull Advanced Technologies
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:34:00 -
[83] - Quote
corestwo wrote:My "math" is looking at a maxed out rorqual boosted Hulk in EFT and seeing that it gets 2857m3/minute in yield. 2857m3 x 60 minutes is 171,420m3 per hour, which means 1,171,420 units of veld per hour, which is in line with what the blog says after accounting for the fact that I didn't bother to plug implants into the miner profile in EFT.
So, assuming the information posted in the blog here is accurate, things don't change. If sisi has different information, then perhaps its running a slightly older version than what is going to push to live or something.
Seems reasonable to me vOv |
Daenika
MMO-Mechanics.com
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:38:00 -
[84] - Quote
Wait, so with the conversion to an Ore hold, do cargo expanders still work? Or will those just apply to the base cargohold? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
536
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:39:00 -
[85] - Quote
Daenika wrote:Wait, so with the conversion to an Ore hold, do cargo expanders still work? Or will those just apply to the base cargohold?
Just the base cargo hold FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
63
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:39:00 -
[86] - Quote
Daenika wrote:Wait, so with the conversion to an Ore hold, do cargo expanders still work? Or will those just apply to the base cargohold? Cargo expanders have only ever applied to the base cargo, not specialized (ore/fuel/corporate/etc) holds. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
355
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:42:00 -
[87] - Quote
corestwo wrote:My "math" is looking at a maxed out rorqual boosted Hulk in EFT and seeing that it gets 2857m3/minute in yield. 2857m3 x 60 minutes is 171,420m3 per hour, which means 1,171,420 units of veld per hour, which is in line with what the blog says after accounting for the fact that I didn't bother to plug implants into the miner profile in EFT.
So, assuming the information posted in the blog here is accurate, things don't change. If sisi has different information, then perhaps its running a slightly older version than what is going to push to live or something.
my maths has gone wrong somewhere, i've got 104.0625 second cycles with rorq bonuses, somehow i'm just getting more yield.
a hulk with... t2 strips + t2 crystals, astrogeology, mining, mining barges, exhumers all at V, then 2x mlus and both the 5% highwall and the michi implant i'm getting 1961.03...m3 per cycle per strip, giving me 3392m3 per min.
**** knows, it's too late at night for me to be messing with this crap. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
63
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:47:00 -
[88] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:my maths has gone wrong somewhere, i've got 104.0625 second cycles with rorq bonuses, somehow i'm just getting more yield.
a hulk with... t2 strips + t2 crystals, astrogeology, mining, mining barges, exhumers all at V, then 2x mlus and both the 5% highwall and the michi implant i'm getting 1961.03...m3 per cycle per strip, giving me 3392m3 per min.
**** knows, it's too late at night for me to be messing with this crap.
with orca bonuses it's 2898.5.. m3/cycle, giving 173,911m3 which is closer to dev blog numbers. What happens if you take out the Michi? I doubt many people even bother acknowledging its existence given the 1b price tag. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
355
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:49:00 -
[89] - Quote
Atum wrote:Dave stark wrote:my maths has gone wrong somewhere, i've got 104.0625 second cycles with rorq bonuses, somehow i'm just getting more yield.
a hulk with... t2 strips + t2 crystals, astrogeology, mining, mining barges, exhumers all at V, then 2x mlus and both the 5% highwall and the michi implant i'm getting 1961.03...m3 per cycle per strip, giving me 3392m3 per min.
**** knows, it's too late at night for me to be messing with this crap.
with orca bonuses it's 2898.5.. m3/cycle, giving 173,911m3 which is closer to dev blog numbers. What happens if you take out the Michi? I doubt many people even bother acknowledging its existence given the 1b price tag.
with orca bonuses 165,630m3/hour with rorq bonuses 193,832
orca bonuses with michi is closer than those two options it seems. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
92
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:59:00 -
[90] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:corestwo wrote:My "math" is looking at a maxed out rorqual boosted Hulk in EFT and seeing that it gets 2857m3/minute in yield. 2857m3 x 60 minutes is 171,420m3 per hour, which means 1,171,420 units of veld per hour, which is in line with what the blog says after accounting for the fact that I didn't bother to plug implants into the miner profile in EFT.
So, assuming the information posted in the blog here is accurate, things don't change. If sisi has different information, then perhaps its running a slightly older version than what is going to push to live or something. my maths has gone wrong somewhere, i've got 104.0625 second cycles with rorq bonuses, somehow i'm just getting more yield. a hulk with... t2 strips + t2 crystals, astrogeology, mining, mining barges, exhumers all at V, then 2x mlus and both the 5% highwall and the michi implant i'm getting 1961.03...m3 per cycle per strip, giving me 3392m3 per min. **** knows, it's too late at night for me to be messing with this crap. with orca bonuses it's 2898.5.. m3/cycle, giving 173,911m3 which is closer to dev blog numbers.
Last few days on sisi the hulk had the same as on tq, 1832m3/cycle with max rorq boost and just the 3% mining implant.
Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
|
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
136
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:02:00 -
[91] - Quote
CCP
And how about the material cost to build the minning barges, any change!?!??!?
THey should cost almost the same to build!!! |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
355
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:04:00 -
[92] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Dave stark wrote:corestwo wrote:My "math" is looking at a maxed out rorqual boosted Hulk in EFT and seeing that it gets 2857m3/minute in yield. 2857m3 x 60 minutes is 171,420m3 per hour, which means 1,171,420 units of veld per hour, which is in line with what the blog says after accounting for the fact that I didn't bother to plug implants into the miner profile in EFT.
So, assuming the information posted in the blog here is accurate, things don't change. If sisi has different information, then perhaps its running a slightly older version than what is going to push to live or something. my maths has gone wrong somewhere, i've got 104.0625 second cycles with rorq bonuses, somehow i'm just getting more yield. a hulk with... t2 strips + t2 crystals, astrogeology, mining, mining barges, exhumers all at V, then 2x mlus and both the 5% highwall and the michi implant i'm getting 1961.03...m3 per cycle per strip, giving me 3392m3 per min. **** knows, it's too late at night for me to be messing with this crap. with orca bonuses it's 2898.5.. m3/cycle, giving 173,911m3 which is closer to dev blog numbers. Last few days on sisi the hulk had the same as on tq, 1832m3/cycle with max rorq boost and just the 3% mining implant.
confirming that is what i get without michi and 3% highwall instead of 5% highwall. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
355
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:04:00 -
[93] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:CCP
And how about the material cost to build the minning barges, any change!?!??!?
THey should cost almost the same to build!!! they have changed, check out science and industry there's a thread there about it. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Krell Kroenen
Miners In Possession Brothers of Apocrypha.
30
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:05:00 -
[94] - Quote
I know not purely a barge related question but this from the dev blog:Quote:With the increase to shield hit points, the shield resistance bonus of Exhumers was making the gap between Mining Barges and Exhumers a bit too big, so we reduced the bonus from 7.5% per level to 5% per level.
Has me wondering as the ship re-blanching continues will the gap be closing between other T1 to T2 hulls? |
Scott PiIgrim
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:07:00 -
[95] - Quote
Please make the cargohold 50 m3 bigger on all barges. We capsuleers do bring other stuff than just crystals you know :( |
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
162
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:07:00 -
[96] - Quote
corestwo wrote: If you want to feel superior because you caught ccp out on a little mistake, be my guest, but their numbers are accurate for a reasonable set of assumptions.
lol wow, why are you so bitter towards me? I don't think this is the first time you've insulted me. Reasonable set of assumptions are that max mining yield based on perfect conditions = max mining yield based on perfect conditions. I was attempting to clarify misinformation which would have a massive impact on nullsec ice miners. |
Ramona Vermillion
Apple Construction Inc Northern Associates.
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:08:00 -
[97] - Quote
Hey, I really like what you are doing here, but it seems kind of boring that ORE have a monopoly on mining; in terms of RP and in player choice it might be nice to give them some competition at some stage. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
267
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:08:00 -
[98] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:CCP
And how about the material cost to build the minning barges, any change!?!??!?
THey should cost almost the same to build!!!
build costs for procurer and retriever were increased a lot, the others i don't recall ... you can check on sisi though for exact numbers.
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
356
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:12:00 -
[99] - Quote
Jita Bloodtear wrote:corestwo wrote:Jita Bloodtear wrote:How did you calculate ice yields, because as far as I can tell, your numbers are very off Unless I did my math wrong 73 blocks/hr (on the hulk) is in line with what a perfect mackinaw with a perfect orca booster will get right now. See above real fast, I just wrote a post real fast to get a place holder, then edited it in with more detailed information. My information is pulled from direct dealings off the test server, using rorqual boosts with mindlink, perfect miners, max yield fit, perfect implants. Orca boosts != max boosts. But that might help to explain things.
perfect fit hulk, orca bonuses, no implant. 73 blocks an hour. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
382
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:13:00 -
[100] - Quote
Matthew Toomb wrote:Can you guys please think this through just a little bit before you finalize? Those of us noobie idiots who've spent months training for Hulks only to have them downgraded to a piddly craptastic support miner- I assume we'll be ISKompensated for the hundreds of millions of $$ we've spent on our soon to be useless ships correct?
Oh, and will this "uber" retriever at least get a third strip slot? Or just a bloated cargobay?
Glad I manufacture retrievers with an original BPO though, the price is about to go WAY up.
THE SKILLS FOR THE HULK ARE THE SAME SKILLS FOR THE OTHER EXHUMERS, AND ALL OF THEM GET BENEFIT F ROM HAVING HIGH EXHUMERS SKILL
*insults you for being a whiner* If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
|
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
136
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:13:00 -
[101] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Alx Warlord wrote:CCP
And how about the material cost to build the minning barges, any change!?!??!?
THey should cost almost the same to build!!! they have changed, check out science and industry there's a thread there about it.
nice thx |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
382
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:14:00 -
[102] - Quote
Geksz wrote:So is that so easy to store a lot of people's mining crystals on orcas and rorquals? Is it easy to use the dedicated corp hangars with containers? Do any of the miners want to put their crystals on someone elses orcas every time they go mining in 0.0? If one wants to mine all ore types in 0.0 how much space will it take to bring all the required crystals for all the Hulks in the fleet?
Just asking...
With the reduced cargo hold one can't even bring his crystals with their Hulk out and put it in a can to store...
warp in covops transport with can full of crystals, eject into space, anchor, swarm barges around it. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
382
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:14:00 -
[103] - Quote
Tric Starless wrote:Is this a typo? : "Skiff and Retriever are getting hit points comparable to a battleship"
Because the EHP chart doesn't match up... Think you meant Skiff and Procurer?
that EHP table is before any modules are fit. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
889
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:18:00 -
[104] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:Happy Mining Day :3
We alleviated this slightly by cutting the volume of mining crystals in half, but it is now something that miners have to plan for before they go mining. Plan to redock numerous times over a mining session. Not exactly happy mining. How often do you change crystals? I mined for 3 hours last night, 3 accounts, 2 hulks and an orca. Had 3 T2 crystals pop, and swapped one hulk to a different ore once. Everything could have been easily stored in the new hulks (I usually use the orca, so on the hulks I can just do a select all, drag ore to orca. Having crystals in the hulk too makes that harder. But now with the crystals segregated from the ore, Ill be keeping the crystals in the hulks).
For longer sessions: whatever your do to move your ore out can bring new crystals in. Its just not that big a deal. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
316
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:18:00 -
[105] - Quote
Denidil wrote:Tric Starless wrote:Is this a typo? : "Skiff and Retriever are getting hit points comparable to a battleship"
Because the EHP chart doesn't match up... Think you meant Skiff and Procurer? that EHP table is before any modules are fit. procurer is the t1 skiff, he is correct |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
382
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:23:00 -
[106] - Quote
MezriDax wrote:Glad I got rid of my Mackinaws last week :) I should have offloaded the Skiff as well *sigh* btw, great job screwing over miners.... again.
do you work hard to be that dumb? If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
356
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:25:00 -
[107] - Quote
Denidil wrote:MezriDax wrote:Glad I got rid of my Mackinaws last week :) I should have offloaded the Skiff as well *sigh* btw, great job screwing over miners.... again. do you work hard to be that dumb?
you're such an angry person. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:27:00 -
[108] - Quote
somehow i feel that you guys are all forgetting that they made a ship SPECIALIZED in autonomy called the mackinaw. If you want to be able to carry more crystals and not rely on anyone else, perhaps you should consider the ship specialized in that role.
Nobody ever suggests that you use a guardian as a DPS ship because thats not what its for, why do you want to make the hulk an autonomous mining barge? |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
383
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:27:00 -
[109] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Denidil wrote:Tric Starless wrote:Is this a typo? : "Skiff and Retriever are getting hit points comparable to a battleship"
Because the EHP chart doesn't match up... Think you meant Skiff and Procurer? that EHP table is before any modules are fit. procurer is the t1 skiff, he is correct
oh lol he's right, i misread what he was pointing out.. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
383
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:28:00 -
[110] - Quote
Sigras wrote:somehow i feel that you guys are all forgetting that they made a ship SPECIALIZED in autonomy called the mackinaw. If you want to be able to carry more crystals and not rely on anyone else, perhaps you should consider the ship specialized in that role.
Nobody ever suggests that you use a guardian as a DPS ship because thats not what its for, why do you want to make the hulk an autonomous mining barge?
yup.. i can fit 3 crystals of 4 types in my mackinaw (enough for highsec) and suck roids for ages
plus the skiff and mackinaw both mine more ore for less crystal damage. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
889
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:33:00 -
[111] - Quote
Geksz wrote:So is that so easy to store a lot of people's mining crystals on orcas and rorquals? Is it easy to use the dedicated corp hangars with containers? Do any of the miners want to put their crystals on someone elses orcas every time they go mining in 0.0? If one wants to mine all ore types in 0.0 how much space will it take to bring all the required crystals for all the Hulks in the fleet?
Just asking...
With the reduced cargo hold one can't even bring his crystals with their Hulk out and put it in a can to store... Ah, thats the issue. Let me explain more fully:
You are a single account miner and get invited to a mining op 7 jumps from home base.
"What crystals do I bring?" You ask. "We will be mining everything, so bring them all"
But you cannot, because the hulk will not hold them all.
So CCP: Thats why the Hulk needs more cargo, not to hold crystals during mining, but to get all my crystals from my base many many jumps away to the mining site in the first place.
One thing that helps though: use cargo expanders for the trip, refit for mining when you get there, and use medium containers. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
356
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:33:00 -
[112] - Quote
Sigras wrote:somehow i feel that you guys are all forgetting that they made a ship SPECIALIZED in autonomy called the mackinaw. If you want to be able to carry more crystals and not rely on anyone else, perhaps you should consider the ship specialized in that role.
Nobody ever suggests that you use a guardian as a DPS ship because thats not what its for, why do you want to make the hulk an autonomous mining barge?
we don't gain anything from this change, we simply have to do more boring stuff (let's face it mining has never been accused of causing an adrenaline rush) at an inconvenience to us for no reward.
it's not like being able to carry all the crystals you want was a game breaking balance skewing issue that needed addressing. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Bauloe
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:33:00 -
[113] - Quote
I just feel the bonus of the Skiff and the Mach of 1% per level seem flat
THe level bonus should be something meaningful but in a direction away from Mining yield
Ie Mack - Be 5% per level for range for mining lazers and Targeting Range
Skiff be 5% signature radius reduction per level.
I am personally going to you the non Hulk ships more often. but I would like to have a substantial reward for training for the Mack and Skiff.
Dropping the 1% Yield will also make the Hulk stand out more so as the king of mining |
Bauloe
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:47:00 -
[114] - Quote
there has been the alot of speculation of the new build mats of skiffs. and retreivers. It would be intersting if CCP did something different. Only change the blue prints and change the names of the current Ships, and place them as Specialty Ships....
Then each ship built after the 8th would be the new type of ship.
Would be interesting
The old hulk would be a collectors items and hunted by gankers.
|
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
16
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:48:00 -
[115] - Quote
There is a nerf...
I used to be able to take my exhumer and configure it as desired with rigs of my choice and it still had its mercoxit bonus or its Ice bonus. Now, if I want to go after either of those materials at the same rate I must use a rig slot to put in the appropriate bonus item. That is what I call a nerf. Not a big deal perhaps, but rigs are permanant, to change them is to destroy them. I would have rather seen a T1 low or midslot module that can be swapped out on whenever I need to change what I am after. That would be great!
|
Belshazzar Babylon
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:49:00 -
[116] - Quote
Great changes. Really lets me choose my ship based on how I want to use it. |
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:54:00 -
[117] - Quote
I consider it beyond any rational understanding why the "out of hand EHP" were readjusted by reducing the resistance bonus instead of removing some of the added new base HP. From those reduced resists alone, Exhumers take 17% more damage compared to current values. Add in the new ship signature sizes (more than doubled on some), and those "group oriented" versions with their low ehp will be hard to keep alive, even in a proper fleet setup with logistics and whatnot.
Interesting choices, interesting choices. |
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
82
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:57:00 -
[118] - Quote
The hulk currently holds the record for 'most copies of itself in cargo' - since hulks are only 3750m^3 you can fit quite a few into a cargo optimized hulk. That will of course go away with this release.
So can I ask what happens to those people with rigs on these ships, do we just make a petition if we want the inappropriate rigs removed, or will it happen automagically. I ask, because I have a hulk with Ye Olde School Large Rigs on it, and since I never fly it any more I kind of apprectiate its 'collectors item' status. |
Madner Kami
Durendal Ascending Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
39
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:08:00 -
[119] - Quote
The blog implies it, but I really want the answer spelled out:
You guys thought about redirecting the yield to the ore hold by default, instead of the cargohold, right? |
Fade Toblack
Per.ly The 20 Minuters
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:09:00 -
[120] - Quote
MezriDax wrote:Glad I got rid of my Mackinaws last week :) I should have offloaded the Skiff as well *sigh* btw, great job screwing over miners.... again.
Pity you sold the Mackinaws. I can see an increase in demand coming for Mackinaws and Skiffs by the players that actually understand they're being given more choice... |
|
nardaq
Orion Expeditions
24
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:12:00 -
[121] - Quote
guess we gotta have more hassle to change to ICE and MERC no more quick dock up/ SMA and swap ship and resume will be fun for multi boxers
instead change the role for the skiff/mack/hulk u should introduce new type ORE ships or something....
and i still think its crap to have only 4 sets in the hold |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
612
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:19:00 -
[122] - Quote
Jita Bloodtear wrote:corestwo wrote: If you want to feel superior because you caught ccp out on a little mistake, be my guest, but their numbers are accurate for a reasonable set of assumptions.
lol wow, why are you so bitter towards me? I don't think this is the first time you've insulted me. Reasonable set of assumptions are that max mining yield based on perfect conditions = max mining yield based on perfect conditions. I was attempting to clarify misinformation which would have a massive impact on nullsec ice miners.
there are about three nullsec ice miners outside IRC so orca bonuses for "max ice yield" is a perfectly reasonable assumption. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
fofofo |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
536
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:34:00 -
[123] - Quote
Madner Kami wrote:The blog implies it, but I really want the answer spelled out:
You guys thought about redirecting the yield to the ore hold by default, instead of the cargohold, right?
I've seen it said somewhere.
and as they're not saying that ore intake is being cut by a third (350m3 cargo hold, 1000m3 strip miner (on a hulk. On a skiff, it'd be a 3000m3 strip) ), it's as close to explicit as you can get without it out and out said. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
588
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:36:00 -
[124] - Quote
Madam Isk wrote:Will existing hulks get their rig's "refunded"? [...]
I highly doubt it.
And why should they?
Things have been nerfed/buffed before, and no-one, AFAIK, ever got any "refunds" of anything based on same.
Adjust, and adapt, or GTFO. Meta-gaming for carebears:
Whine on the forums like a little ***** until CCP gets sick of you and hands you everything you ask for just to shut you up. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
278
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:43:00 -
[125] - Quote
Hmm... if GoonSwarm members are in favor of these changes, there has to be something fundamentally wrong.
For some odd reason, I just can't buy into the idea that the instigators of the Gallente Ice Interdiction and co-sponsors of Hulkageddon would be supporting any sort of buff to miners, unless it makes them better targets for high-sec ganking.
And, ofc, you always have to question corestwo's interest in these changes - there must be an opportunity to rake in a substantial amount of ISK hidden in here somewhere. Manipulating market speculation on Skiffs, perhaps? :) |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
588
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:47:00 -
[126] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Hmm... if GoonSwarm members are in favor of these changes, there has to be something fundamentally wrong.
For some odd reason, I just can't buy into the idea that the instigators of the Gallente Ice Interdiction and co-sponsors of Hulkageddon would be supporting any sort of buff to miners, unless it makes them better targets for high-sec ganking.
And, ofc, you always have to question corestwo's interest in these changes - there must be an opportunity to rake in a substantial amount of ISK hidden in here somewhere. Manipulating market speculation on Skiffs, perhaps? :)
You know, you could also stop whining and try to get in on some of that action yourself.
And that's coming from someone who detests Goons, although I suspect my reasons are rather different than most bleating, victim-card waving fluffy little carebears.
Meta-gaming for carebears:
Whine on the forums like a little ***** until CCP gets sick of you and hands you everything you ask for just to shut you up. |
|
CCP Masterplan
C C P C C P Alliance
566
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:52:00 -
[127] - Quote
Madner Kami wrote:The blog implies it, but I really want the answer spelled out:
You guys thought about redirecting the yield to the ore hold by default, instead of the cargohold, right?
From here: If a ship has an ore bay, incoming ore from modules/drones will always go in to the ore bay. If a ship does not have an ore bay, incoming ore from modules/drones will always go in to the cargo bay. If the appropriate bay is full, the module/drone will deactivate as normal, and excess ore is lost. "This one time, on patch day..." CCP Masterplan -á| -áTeam Five-0: Rewriting the law |
|
Madam Isk
Burque Enterprises
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 23:01:00 -
[128] - Quote
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:Madam Isk wrote:Will existing hulks get their rig's "refunded"? [...] I highly doubt it. And why should they? Things have been nerfed/buffed before, and no-one, AFAIK, ever got any "refunds" of anything based on same. Adjust, and adapt, or GTFO.
By refunded I simply mean unequipped from the ship much like they did with excess drones when they nerfed super carriers drone bays. They also refunded the SP for learning skills when they removed them in case you haven't been paying attention. Seems pretty reasonable to me. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
92
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 23:08:00 -
[129] - Quote
So CCP Masterplan, why do you think there should only be 13 crystals in the hulk? Is this just tailored for the high sec miners?
I know you guys must of discussed this in detail, but really how does this make a group mining fleet more interactive by adding tasks that no one in the fleet will want to do?
I like my hulks and will continue to use them, but I can't understand why we can't have a bigger selection.
I do plan out my mining activities, I even go as far as to make a list of what I am going to hit so I can sort out what to bring with my little fleet of 3 hulks, but even the best laid plans go to hell when unknown variables come into play. IE: used crystals/other people hitting the same target rocks and some rocks already partially depleted, just to name a few.
When I get home from work and want to do something, I like to get down to it. Not have to interrupt things 20 minutes after I get settled in. This already happens enough when neuts enter the system you are mining in, why should there be more things to go wrong?
Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
278
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 23:12:00 -
[130] - Quote
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Hmm... if GoonSwarm members are in favor of these changes, there has to be something fundamentally wrong.
For some odd reason, I just can't buy into the idea that the instigators of the Gallente Ice Interdiction and co-sponsors of Hulkageddon would be supporting any sort of buff to miners, unless it makes them better targets for high-sec ganking.
And, ofc, you always have to question corestwo's interest in these changes - there must be an opportunity to rake in a substantial amount of ISK hidden in here somewhere. Manipulating market speculation on Skiffs, perhaps? :) You know, you could also stop whining and try to get in on some of that action yourself. And that's coming from someone who detests Goons, although I suspect my reasons are rather different than most bleating, victim-card waving fluffy little carebears. Who is whining? I am just making an observation.
And, this is coming from someone who does *not* detest the Goons - although I admit that I enjoy taking the opposing side in some forum debates that they are involved in. For the most part, the Goons are just playing the game (and meta-game), like everyone else - albeit ofttimes better than most. And, I've actually benefited quite nicely from past Goon activities, so I always like to keep an eye on their upcoming shenanigans.... :)
You seem to be a bit angry, though.... lol. |
|
Draconus Lofwyr
The Green Cross Persona Non Gratis
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 23:16:00 -
[131] - Quote
will existing cargo rigs be removed and deployed in either cargo bay or hangar as these are no longer useful with an ore hold?
Also, will the ORE frig be ready and available when the existing mioning frigs loose their bonuses? or will they just have to deal till you eventually get around to it? |
Belshazzar Babylon
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 23:22:00 -
[132] - Quote
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:will existing cargo rigs be removed and deployed in either cargo bay or hangar as these are no longer useful with an ore hold?
Also, will the ORE frig be ready and available when the existing mioning frigs loose their bonuses? or will they just have to deal till you eventually get around to it?
Can't tell if serious or trolling |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
614
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 23:29:00 -
[133] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Hmm... if GoonSwarm members are in favor of these changes, there has to be something fundamentally wrong.
For some odd reason, I just can't buy into the idea that the instigators of the Gallente Ice Interdiction and co-sponsors of Hulkageddon would be supporting any sort of buff to miners, unless it makes them better targets for high-sec ganking.
And, ofc, you always have to question corestwo's interest in these changes - there must be an opportunity to rake in a substantial amount of ISK hidden in here somewhere. Manipulating market speculation on Skiffs, perhaps? :)
Much like goons were able to acknowledge that Tech really was over the top and needed the nerf (although CCP's nerf is a bit extreme), hulks and other miners really were too squishy, and I/we support these changes because it leaves hulks beefier, but not by too much as was the case with CCP's first pass.
And as to the hidden opportunity, yes it exists, unless the material changes on sisi are a total fakeout. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
fofofo |
Kaycerra
Black Lotus Heavy Industries Ethereal Dawn
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 23:51:00 -
[134] - Quote
First |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
384
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 00:04:00 -
[135] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Hmm... if GoonSwarm members are in favor of these changes, there has to be something fundamentally wrong.
For some odd reason, I just can't buy into the idea that the instigators of the Gallente Ice Interdiction and co-sponsors of Hulkageddon would be supporting any sort of buff to miners, unless it makes them better targets for high-sec ganking.
And, ofc, you always have to question corestwo's interest in these changes - there must be an opportunity to rake in a substantial amount of ISK hidden in here somewhere. Manipulating market speculation on Skiffs, perhaps? :) Much like goons were able to acknowledge that Tech really was over the top and needed the nerf (although CCP's nerf is a bit extreme), we're able (though perhaps not quite as willing) to admit that hulks and other miners really were too squishy. I/we support these changes because it leaves hulks beefier, but not by too much, as was the case with CCP's first pass. And as to the hidden opportunity, yes it exists, unless the material changes on sisi are a total fakeout.
building now then refining after patch isn't going to net you minerals btw.. they added the new minerals as "extra items" which don't reprocess back out. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Jeremy Soikutsu
Homeworld Republic Intrepid Crossing
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 00:12:00 -
[136] - Quote
corestwo wrote:there are about three nullsec ice miners outside IRC Come on man, I'm sure there are at least 5. And why don't we count mang? |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
144
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 00:12:00 -
[137] - Quote
Denidil wrote:corestwo wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Hmm... if GoonSwarm members are in favor of these changes, there has to be something fundamentally wrong.
For some odd reason, I just can't buy into the idea that the instigators of the Gallente Ice Interdiction and co-sponsors of Hulkageddon would be supporting any sort of buff to miners, unless it makes them better targets for high-sec ganking.
And, ofc, you always have to question corestwo's interest in these changes - there must be an opportunity to rake in a substantial amount of ISK hidden in here somewhere. Manipulating market speculation on Skiffs, perhaps? :) Much like goons were able to acknowledge that Tech really was over the top and needed the nerf (although CCP's nerf is a bit extreme), we're able (though perhaps not quite as willing) to admit that hulks and other miners really were too squishy. I/we support these changes because it leaves hulks beefier, but not by too much, as was the case with CCP's first pass. And as to the hidden opportunity, yes it exists, unless the material changes on sisi are a total fakeout. building now then refining after patch isn't going to net you minerals btw.. they added the new minerals as "extra items" which don't reprocess back out. It is to late now, but the resale value of the changed barges will be significantly increased after the patch. There is more than one way to capitalise on the increased mineral requirements when the change hits. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
615
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 00:32:00 -
[138] - Quote
Denidil wrote:corestwo wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Hmm... if GoonSwarm members are in favor of these changes, there has to be something fundamentally wrong.
For some odd reason, I just can't buy into the idea that the instigators of the Gallente Ice Interdiction and co-sponsors of Hulkageddon would be supporting any sort of buff to miners, unless it makes them better targets for high-sec ganking.
And, ofc, you always have to question corestwo's interest in these changes - there must be an opportunity to rake in a substantial amount of ISK hidden in here somewhere. Manipulating market speculation on Skiffs, perhaps? :) Much like goons were able to acknowledge that Tech really was over the top and needed the nerf (although CCP's nerf is a bit extreme), we're able (though perhaps not quite as willing) to admit that hulks and other miners really were too squishy. I/we support these changes because it leaves hulks beefier, but not by too much, as was the case with CCP's first pass. And as to the hidden opportunity, yes it exists, unless the material changes on sisi are a total fakeout. building now then refining after patch isn't going to net you minerals btw.. they added the new minerals as "extra items" which don't reprocess back out.
well **** I just lost a lot of isk then.
Or maybe it doesn't matter because increased mineral prices still mean that I'll be able to sell the things at the significantly higher post-patch going rate. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
fofofo |
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1059
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 00:38:00 -
[139] - Quote
pure win.
But what about cost to build? Should I be buying up skiffs to resell at triple the price or what? You've never been clear the plan here guys. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1059
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 00:41:00 -
[140] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Denidil wrote:MezriDax wrote:Glad I got rid of my Mackinaws last week :) I should have offloaded the Skiff as well *sigh* btw, great job screwing over miners.... again. do you work hard to be that dumb? you're such an angry person.
I agree with him. the new mining ships are getting massive buffs. In fact selling them was stupid as ****. Becuase they are going to up 3-4 times in price. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
|
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
16
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 00:56:00 -
[141] - Quote
as someone who builds all the exhumers... I am very happy with what has happened to skiff prices... just about doubled this week. |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
901
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 01:06:00 -
[142] - Quote
Draconus Lofwyr wrote: Also, will the ORE frig be ready and available when the existing mioning frigs loose their bonuses? or will they just have to deal till you eventually get around to it?
The current mining frigates will not be losing their mining bonuses in Inferno 1.2, and we do not plan to leave people without entry level mining options. |
|
Borgholio
Quantum Industries TOHA Conglomerate
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 01:09:00 -
[143] - Quote
All this talk about lack of crystal space in the new barges. Has anybody...you know...considered using common T1 strip miners? Less yield but no worry about crystals.
Just a thought... You will be assimilated...bunghole! |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
591
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 01:17:00 -
[144] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Hmm... if GoonSwarm members are in favor of these changes, there has to be something fundamentally wrong.
For some odd reason, I just can't buy into the idea that the instigators of the Gallente Ice Interdiction and co-sponsors of Hulkageddon would be supporting any sort of buff to miners, unless it makes them better targets for high-sec ganking.
And, ofc, you always have to question corestwo's interest in these changes - there must be an opportunity to rake in a substantial amount of ISK hidden in here somewhere. Manipulating market speculation on Skiffs, perhaps? :) You know, you could also stop whining and try to get in on some of that action yourself. And that's coming from someone who detests Goons, although I suspect my reasons are rather different than most bleating, victim-card waving fluffy little carebears. Who is whining? I am just making an observation. And, this is coming from someone who does *not* detest the Goons - although I admit that I enjoy taking the opposing side in some forum debates that they are involved in. For the most part, the Goons are just playing the game (and meta-game), like everyone else - albeit ofttimes better than most. And, I've actually benefited quite nicely from past Goon activities, so I always like to keep an eye on their upcoming shenanigans.... :) You seem to be a bit angry, though.... lol.
No, it's because they're douchebags, full-stop/end-of.
I don't like douchebags. That's really all there is to it.
Meta-gaming for carebears:
Whine on the forums like a little ***** until CCP gets sick of you and hands you everything you ask for just to shut you up. |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
591
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 01:20:00 -
[145] - Quote
Madam Isk wrote:Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:Madam Isk wrote:Will existing hulks get their rig's "refunded"? [...] I highly doubt it. And why should they? Things have been nerfed/buffed before, and no-one, AFAIK, ever got any "refunds" of anything based on same. Adjust, and adapt, or GTFO. By refunded I simply mean unequipped from the ship much like they did with excess drones when they nerfed super carriers drone bays. They also refunded the SP for learning skills when they removed them in case you haven't been paying attention. Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Un-shipping a rig destroys it, so what's being refunded?
The extra drones were already there, just placed in cargo/CHA/station IIRC, so nothing was being taken away or refunded, it was just the same thing being moved elsewhere.
The learning skills were not a buff or nerf to any existing item, sorry, but that's not even close to the same thing.
If you can afford T2 Cargo rigs, then you can afford to replace them. Can't you? Meta-gaming for carebears:
Whine on the forums like a little ***** until CCP gets sick of you and hands you everything you ask for just to shut you up. |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 01:36:00 -
[146] - Quote
Madam Isk wrote:Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:Madam Isk wrote:Will existing hulks get their rig's "refunded"? [...] I highly doubt it. And why should they? Things have been nerfed/buffed before, and no-one, AFAIK, ever got any "refunds" of anything based on same. Adjust, and adapt, or GTFO. By refunded I simply mean unequipped from the ship much like they did with excess drones when they nerfed super carriers drone bays. They also refunded the SP for learning skills when they removed them in case you haven't been paying attention. Seems pretty reasonable to me.
It is still possible to fit cargo rigs to a hulk, just because you don't want to any more doesn't mean nobody does. |
Jagoff Haverford
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort Get Off My Lawn
22
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 02:23:00 -
[147] - Quote
I know this is pointless, but let me make one last attempt.
We are being told that Hulks and Covetors are being limited to 5 sets of crystals because it will "force pilots to make some decisions" before undocking. In other threads, some of you have also claimed that this limitation will force fleets to be come up with a plan about who will be mining what.
The problem here is that this change will not place any such burden on most miners. Instead, it will only affect the subset of miners who operate in SOV and wormhole space.
Let's take Miner A, who lives in Amarrian Empire space. Gravitational sites rarely spawn in his systems, and he really doesn't bother looking for them. Instead, his mining is limited to just the four ores that appear in Amarrian high sec -- Veldspar, Scordite, Pyroxeres, and Kernite. He hasn't even bothered to train the ore specialization skills for any of the other ores, because he never even sees them. When he gets home from work and goes mining, he just jumps in his Hulk. It's strip miners are already loaded with 3 Veldspar crystals (from the last op). His cargo bay already contains 3 Scordite, 3 Pyroxeres, and 3 Kernite crystals (taking up 225 cubic meters), plus one spare crystal for each of the 4 ore types in his system. No forethought, no planning, and no communication with other miners is needed. His Hulk is always ready to go.
Miner B lives in SOV null sec space, in an alliance with a number of other corps. Most of his mining takes place in gravitational sites, and the miners in his alliance have worked hard to upgrade their main mining system to both reach and maintain the desired industry level. They have a large asteroid cluster spawned in the system at all times, and it contains 12 different ore types. To be able to mine in these belts (plus the regular belts that appear in his system), he has had to train 4 times longer than Miner A, since he needs to mine all 16 different ore types in the game.
When Miner B gets home from work and wants to go mining, other alliance members have already been in the belt ahead of him. There's no way of knowing what kinds of ores are still in the belt, how many units are remaining, or where those asteroids are located in relation to one another. One of the bigger mining corps in his alliance is made up of primarily Russian speakers, and communication is difficult. In any event, it's already late in Russia and most of them have gone to bed. Another group of miners comes from the German corp. They are still in the belt, but language difficulties make it hard to have a conversation about ore types. So Miner B makes some random guesses about which ore types he might find when he lands in the belt, hoping for Arkonor, Bistot, Crokite, Hemorphite, and Hedbergite. He loads in 3 of those crystals apiece, and warps to the corp bookmark for the current large grave site.
When he lands, he realizes that his guesses were awful. All of the Arkonor is gone. The Germans have 3 Hulks hitting the last remaining Bistot rock with 3 lasers apiece. There are still 2 Crokite asteroids left, but they are far away from each other. and neither one is currently in range. He can't even scan them to see how much is left in them. There is one Hemorphite rock just 15 km away, but his scanner shows that it has only 520 units left in it. All of the other Hemorphite is too far away to either mine or examine with his survey scanner. His only lucky guess was Hedbergite. There is one untouched Hedgbergite rock within range. It could keep him mining for an hour or more, but not if he nails it with all 3 lasers at the same time. But what choice does he have? The only other rocks within range are 2 nicely-sized Kernites (that he doesn't have crystals for) and a Spodumain that nobody wants to bother with.
So he slowly turns his Hulk around, spends the painfully long aligning time writing down a list of the closest asteroids, makes a few bookmarks to some asteroids that are too far away to hit with his scanner (hoping that there is still a decent amount left in them) and warps back to the station. There he reloads with a different set of crystals, and heads back out to one of his new bookmarks. When he gets there, though, he finds that the Crokite that he warped in on is largely exhausted, and that there really are no other rocks in range.
He docks, shuts down Eve, and goes to play World of Tanks.
This Hulk configuration will only have its stated effect on Miner B. Miner A will get max yield without any need to make choices. Miner B -- who has already paid a price in having to train all those different ore specialization skills and working with less efficient refineries -- is essentially forced to choose a less efficient ship.
Nothing I say here will change anything. But I thought I would make one last attempt to explain why those of us who live in these asteroid cluster sites really do need to carry more than just 13 crystals into the belts. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
271
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 02:42:00 -
[148] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Draconus Lofwyr wrote: Also, will the ORE frig be ready and available when the existing mioning frigs loose their bonuses? or will they just have to deal till you eventually get around to it?
The current mining frigates will not be losing their mining bonuses in Inferno 1.2, and we do not plan to leave people without entry level mining options. Haven't the Amarr already lost their mining frigate? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2318
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 02:56:00 -
[149] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:I know this is pointless, but let me make one last attempt.
We are being told that Hulks and Covetors are being limited to 5 sets of crystals because it will "force pilots to make some decisions" before undocking. In other threads, some of you have also claimed that this limitation will force fleets to be come up with a plan about who will be mining what.
The problem here is that this change will not place any such burden on most miners. Instead, it will only affect the subset of miners who operate in SOV and wormhole space.
Let's take Miner A, who lives in Amarrian Empire space. Gravitational sites rarely spawn in his systems, and he really doesn't bother looking for them. Instead, his mining is limited to just the four ores that appear in Amarrian high sec -- Veldspar, Scordite, Pyroxeres, and Kernite. He hasn't even bothered to train the ore specialization skills for any of the other ores, because he never even sees them. When he gets home from work and goes mining, he just jumps in his Hulk. It's strip miners are already loaded with 3 Veldspar crystals (from the last op). His cargo bay already contains 3 Scordite, 3 Pyroxeres, and 3 Kernite crystals (taking up 225 cubic meters), plus one spare crystal for each of the 4 ore types in his system. No forethought, no planning, and no communication with other miners is needed. His Hulk is always ready to go.
Miner B lives in SOV null sec space, in an alliance with a number of other corps. Most of his mining takes place in gravitational sites, and the miners in his alliance have worked hard to upgrade their main mining system to both reach and maintain the desired industry level. They have a large asteroid cluster spawned in the system at all times, and it contains 12 different ore types. To be able to mine in these belts (plus the regular belts that appear in his system), he has had to train 4 times longer than Miner A, since he needs to mine all 16 different ore types in the game.
When Miner B gets home from work and wants to go mining, other alliance members have already been in the belt ahead of him. There's no way of knowing what kinds of ores are still in the belt, how many units are remaining, or where those asteroids are located in relation to one another. One of the bigger mining corps in his alliance is made up of primarily Russian speakers, and communication is difficult. In any event, it's already late in Russia and most of them have gone to bed. Another group of miners comes from the German corp. They are still in the belt, but language difficulties make it hard to have a conversation about ore types. So Miner B makes some random guesses about which ore types he might find when he lands in the belt, hoping for Arkonor, Bistot, Crokite, Hemorphite, and Hedbergite. He loads in 3 of those crystals apiece, and warps to the corp bookmark for the current large grave site.
When he lands, he realizes that his guesses were awful. All of the Arkonor is gone. The Germans have 3 Hulks hitting the last remaining Bistot rock with 3 lasers apiece. There are still 2 Crokite asteroids left, but they are far away from each other. and neither one is currently in range. He can't even scan them to see how much is left in them. There is one Hemorphite rock just 15 km away, but his scanner shows that it has only 520 units left in it. All of the other Hemorphite is too far away to either mine or examine with his survey scanner. His only lucky guess was Hedbergite. There is one untouched Hedgbergite rock within range. It could keep him mining for an hour or more, but not if he nails it with all 3 lasers at the same time. But what choice does he have? The only other rocks within range are 2 nicely-sized Kernites (that he doesn't have crystals for) and a Spodumain that nobody wants to bother with.
So he slowly turns his Hulk around, spends the painfully long aligning time writing down a list of the closest asteroids, makes a few bookmarks to some asteroids that are too far away to hit with his scanner (hoping that there is still a decent amount left in them) and warps back to the station. There he reloads with a different set of crystals, and heads back out to one of his new bookmarks. When he gets there, though, he finds that the Crokite that he warped in on is largely exhausted, and that there really are no other rocks in range.
He docks, shuts down Eve, and goes to play World of Tanks.
This Hulk configuration will only have its stated effect on Miner B. Miner A will get max yield without any need to make choices. Miner B -- who has already paid a price in having to train all those different ore specialization skills and working with less efficient refineries -- is essentially forced to choose a less efficient ship.
Nothing I say here will change anything. But I thought I would make one last attempt to explain why those of us who live in these asteroid cluster sites really do need to carry more than just 13 crystals into the belts.
Miner B needs to:
1: Stick with WOT if having to make a quick warp back to station is so exhausting.
or
2: Find an alliance that he can communicate with, perhaps even work in concert with.
Congratulations, that is possibly the most convoluted whine I have ever read. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Lirinas
B.C.C.O.F Investments
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 03:54:00 -
[150] - Quote
It's been years since I last did any serious mining, and even longer since I've mined Mercoxit, but this thought came to mind:
How well can the Covetor & Hulk withstand the damage from carelessly mining Mercoxit? |
|
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
44
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 05:15:00 -
[151] - Quote
As said, most of the changes are ok but still some things are missing
- Ice Harvester II needs the same fitting requirements as T2 strip miners
Currently you can fit whatever mining barge exhumer you like for ore/mercoxit mining with a bit of a tank (and to upgrades in the low slots). If you change for ice harvesting (harvesters and upgrades) you have to remove the tank. Now that the same ship is going to be the king in ice and ore yield it should be possible to just replace the mining/harvesting gear without having to touch the remaining modules providing a decent tank.
- Calibration Cost for mining rigs should go down to 200
Currently, you would move to 0.0 with a hulk, a mackinaw and a skiff to be able to get maximum yield. Without the change mentioned above you'll need a hulk for ice mining and a hulk for mercoxit mining. With the change you would need a single hulk
This would provide the king of the hill ship for mining |
Grideris
Fleet Coordination Commission Fleet Coordination Coalition
239
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 05:36:00 -
[152] - Quote
Lirinas wrote:It's been years since I last did any serious mining, and even longer since I've mined Mercoxit, but this thought came to mind:
How well can the Covetor & Hulk withstand the damage from carelessly mining Mercoxit?
Quote: Deep Core Mining:
Skill at operating mining lasers requiring Deep Core Mining. 20% reduction per skill level in the chance of a damage cloud forming while mining Mercoxit.
Just get Deep Core Mining V. Simple. http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com - the blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
357
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 07:01:00 -
[153] - Quote
Borgholio wrote:All this talk about lack of crystal space in the new barges. Has anybody...you know...considered using common T1 strip miners? Less yield but no worry about crystals.
Just a thought...
no because then the other ships have higher yield, ehp, and tank... why would you pick a hulk if it has less of everything? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
357
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 07:05:00 -
[154] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:I know this is pointless, but let me make one last attempt. [stuff]
you missed a key point for miner B.
none of that is fun, at all. the change isn't just a logistical ball ache, it's boring and uninteresting. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1684
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 07:17:00 -
[155] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Miner B lives in SOV null sec space, in an alliance with a number of other corps. GǪ in an alliance where most of the people don't speak the only language that Miner B speaks. Miner B doesn't coordinate anything he does with the corp or alliance, and figures that guessing how much ore is in rocks is a great way to determine how much ore is in rocks.
Miner B really needs to learn how to use a frigate, a microwarpdrive, and a survey scanner. I would also suggest that Miner B should find a different corp where there are people who play at the same time as Miner B who speak the same language as Miner B.
As far as contrived examples go, 7/10. You left out the ever-present AFK cloaker and the awoxer.
Though Miner B would greatly benefit from a frigate with the survey scanner bonus of an Orca. Perhaps we should be pestering CCP to release an ORE covert ops frigate? No weapons, but a nice bonus to survey scanner distance along with the usual covert ops perks. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
611
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 07:19:00 -
[156] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Borgholio wrote:All this talk about lack of crystal space in the new barges. Has anybody...you know...considered using common T1 strip miners? Less yield but no worry about crystals.
Just a thought... no because then the other ships have higher yield, ehp, and tank... why would you pick a hulk if it has less of everything?
Your missing the point in the dev blog though. CCP Ytterbium stated, that OTHERS are suppose to carry the ore, and bring you mining crystals. (on others to haul and resupply them with mining crystals)- CCP Ytterbium
So it is not designed for the hulk pilot to grab more when he docks or for him to go dock for more crystals. Other players, who play EVE to carry ore places, and to stock things and bring supplies to others. Those players will bring the crystal to the hulk pilot, who is highest mining away. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
358
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 07:25:00 -
[157] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Dave stark wrote:Borgholio wrote:All this talk about lack of crystal space in the new barges. Has anybody...you know...considered using common T1 strip miners? Less yield but no worry about crystals.
Just a thought... no because then the other ships have higher yield, ehp, and tank... why would you pick a hulk if it has less of everything? Your missing the point in the dev blog though. CCP Ytterbium stated, that OTHERS are suppose to carry the ore, and bring you mining crystals. (on others to haul and resupply them with mining crystals)- CCP Ytterbium So it is not designed for the hulk pilot to grab more when he docks or for him to go dock for more crystals. Other players, who play EVE to carry ore places, and to stock things and bring supplies to others. Those players will bring the crystal to the hulk pilot, who is highest mining away.
i didn't miss the point at all, the other poster asked about using t1 strips, to which i replied it just makes the hulk worst at everything.
i think you're trying to shoehorn a point in to a conversation that you're not a part of. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
611
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 07:32:00 -
[158] - Quote
Oh oops, I should have picked better quotes, sorry for throwing off my post. Mostly picked those quotes, since it seemed like the most heinous part of the conversation. But word wise, it is confusing why I used it. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
611
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 07:40:00 -
[159] - Quote
Borgholio wrote:All this talk about lack of crystal space in the new barges. Has anybody...you know...considered using common T1 strip miners? Less yield but no worry about crystals.
Just a thought...
(let me try again)
Sorry poster, but you are reading the dev blog wrong. CCP Ytterbium never stated, that hulk pilots would have to fit T1 strips to deal with less cargo room. (As well as most common posts, of just get more when you dock, or go pick some up) That is not what CCP Ytterbium said hulk pilots would do, to deal with a smaller cargo.
All CCP Ytterbium said that hulk pilots would have to do is : rely on others to haul and resupply them with mining crystals.
There it is, the solution. The one and only correct solution. Hulks can stay in an asteroid field, for as long as they want to and never worry about crystals.
On the other hand, other players will have to bring the hulk pilots their crystals, when they are needed. I do wonder what players will step up to bat. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc. Varangon Tagma
51
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 07:41:00 -
[160] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:... Miner B lives in SOV null sec space, in an alliance with a number of other corps. Most of his mining takes place in gravitational sites, and the miners in his alliance have worked hard to upgrade their main mining system to both reach and maintain the desired industry level. They have a large asteroid cluster spawned in the system at all times, and it contains 12 different ore types. To be able to mine in these belts (plus the regular belts that appear in his system), he has had to train 4 times longer than Miner A, since he needs to mine all 16 different ore types in the game.
When Miner B gets home from work and wants to go mining, other alliance members have already been in the belt ahead of him. There's no way of knowing what kinds of ores are still in the belt, how many units are remaining, or where those asteroids are located in relation to one another. One of the bigger mining corps in his alliance is made up of primarily Russian speakers, and communication is difficult. In any event, it's already late in Russia and most of them have gone to bed. Another group of miners comes from the German corp. They are still in the belt, but language difficulties make it hard to have a conversation about ore types. So Miner B makes some random guesses about which ore types he might find when he lands in the belt, hoping for Arkonor, Bistot, Crokite, Hemorphite, and Hedbergite. He loads in 3 of those crystals apiece, and warps to the corp bookmark for the current large grave site.
When he lands, he realizes that his guesses were awful. All of the Arkonor is gone. The Germans have 3 Hulks hitting the last remaining Bistot rock with 3 lasers apiece. There are still 2 Crokite asteroids left, but they are far away from each other. and neither one is currently in range. He can't even scan them to see how much is left in them. There is one Hemorphite rock just 15 km away, but his scanner shows that it has only 520 units left in it. All of the other Hemorphite is too far away to either mine or examine with his survey scanner. His only lucky guess was Hedbergite. There is one untouched Hedgbergite rock within range. It could keep him mining for an hour or more, but not if he nails it with all 3 lasers at the same time. But what choice does he have? The only other rocks within range are 2 nicely-sized Kernites (that he doesn't have crystals for) and a Spodumain that nobody wants to bother with.
So he slowly turns his Hulk around, spends the painfully long aligning time writing down a list of the closest asteroids, makes a few bookmarks to some asteroids that are too far away to hit with his scanner (hoping that there is still a decent amount left in them) and warps back to the station. There he reloads with a different set of crystals, and heads back out to one of his new bookmarks. When he gets there, though, he finds that the Crokite that he warped in on is largely exhausted, and that there really are no other rocks in range. ...
The way you describe it pilot B is solo miner so he should be using Mackinaw or Retriever instead of Hulk. |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
358
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 07:45:00 -
[161] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:The way you describe it pilot B is solo miner so he should be using Mackinaw or Retriever instead of Hulk.
except, as is common in null, you have an open fleet to join to give you bonuses even if you're solo mining. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
32
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 08:14:00 -
[162] - Quote
No new ORE mining frig in this patch? |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
358
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 08:16:00 -
[163] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:No new ORE mining frig in this patch?
no. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Ruareve
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
65
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 08:48:00 -
[164] - Quote
Overall I like the idea of where the barges are going. Having options is good, having each be useful in it's own way is good. I do have a few concerns though with regards to the latest changes.
1. Sig radius increase is not factored into EHP's but there is a definite effect on the ability of a ship to mitigate damage just from sig size. Increasing overall EHP while increasing sig radius can result in a negative or neutral balance.
2. The idea of one ship being the weakest because it's a fleet based vessel instead of a solo ship is somewhat ludicrous. A fleet in high sec can not protect a low EHP ship from being alpha'ed or taken down by a few small, cheap ships. When an unarmed ship costs upwards of 250mil isk there should be sufficient defenses so that a 40mil ship can't simply one shot the more expensive ship. The exhumers are slow, fat, have limited slots compared to combat ships, and have no real offensive PVP capability. Given all of these weaknesses it seems only fair to ensure sufficient defenses to require some risk/loss to those that would prey on miners. I'm not saying exhumers should be super tanked, but I think they should easily be able to get 50k ehp at the low end and 120k or so on the high end. *Easily in this case is being able to fit both mining modules and tank modules without having to go all tank just to stand a chance of surviving in high sec.*
3. Requiring rigs to determine ore/ice/gas mining seems a bit expensive. I think rigs should be used for yield or range and modules determine what type of bonus the turrets get. I don't like the idea of having to get different barges to mine different targets but I guess it's similar to combat ships having to swap rigs to change from active or passive tanks. I think the main difference is the cost of barges vs. the cost of most combat ships. T1 ships swap rigs but typically T2 ships, the ones costing the same as exhumers, stick with specific rigs and rarely swap them around.
Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/ |
Joost Caldari
Joost Inventor Labs The Ancients.
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 09:21:00 -
[165] - Quote
Ruareve wrote: 3. Requiring rigs to determine ore/ice/gas mining seems a bit expensive. I think rigs should be used for yield or range and modules determine what type of bonus the turrets get. I don't like the idea of having to get different barges to mine different targets but I guess it's similar to combat ships having to swap rigs to change from active or passive tanks. I think the main difference is the cost of barges vs. the cost of most combat ships. T1 ships swap rigs but typically T2 ships, the ones costing the same as exhumers, stick with specific rigs and rarely swap them around.
I agree... Not being able to unfit rigs will mean that the majority of miners will end up with double (minority with a third for gas mining and a forth for mercoxit) mining ships. Now how does that encourage group activities? Not everybody might be able to afford multiple barges, which might mean individuals will specialise in specifc activities. Not sure how this will work out! The future will tell. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
358
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 09:31:00 -
[166] - Quote
Joost Caldari wrote:Ruareve wrote: 3. Requiring rigs to determine ore/ice/gas mining seems a bit expensive. I think rigs should be used for yield or range and modules determine what type of bonus the turrets get. I don't like the idea of having to get different barges to mine different targets but I guess it's similar to combat ships having to swap rigs to change from active or passive tanks. I think the main difference is the cost of barges vs. the cost of most combat ships. T1 ships swap rigs but typically T2 ships, the ones costing the same as exhumers, stick with specific rigs and rarely swap them around.
I agree... Not being able to unfit rigs will mean that the majority of miners will end up with double (minority with a third for gas mining and a forth for mercoxit) mining ships. Now how does that encourage group activities? Not everybody might be able to afford multiple barges, which might mean individuals will specialise in specifc activities. Not sure how this will work out! The future will tell.
the mercoxit rig is what, 14% yield or some thing... a mercoxit asteroid is often left until last along with spod anyway, so you'll probably have all the miners mining and with that many people on it then it'll pop fairly fast, i doubt the rigs will see much use anyway.
it's a bigger issue for ice though, i'll admit. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jagoff Haverford
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort Get Off My Lawn
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 09:34:00 -
[167] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:The way you describe it pilot B is solo miner so he should be using Mackinaw or Retriever instead of Hulk. That's clearly where CCP is going with this, I agree. But again, why should this limitation apply only to those who mine in 0.0 and wormhole space? Those in Empire are completely unaffected by this cargohold problem, and can continue to use the ship with the highest output. They can stay in their NPC corps and solo mine in a Hulk as much as they every did, with no need to think about things prior to undocking.
And Miner B isn't really solo. His Alliance has a fleet going at all times, with boosts coming from an off-grid Rorqual that, for reasons of safety in 0.0 space, is never going to visit the belt to drop off crystals for anybody.
In any event, how about one final idea before I simply shut up about this forever? I would gladly use a rig on my grav site Hulk that increased cargo capacity by 2,000 m3 at the expense of a much larger amount -- call it 3,000 as a starting figure -- of ore bay space. That would give players a choice, make the Hulk far more viable in 0.0 space, and probably sell more Hulks at the same time. The actual numbers probably need to be adjusted a bit here, but the overall concept could work.
|
Carola Kessler
Lost Sisters Of New Eden Freelancer Coalition
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 10:19:00 -
[168] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:[quote=Sofia Wolf]
And Miner B isn't really solo. His Alliance has a fleet going at all times, with boosts coming from an off-grid Rorqual that, for reasons of safety in 0.0 space, is never going to visit the belt to drop off crystals for anybody.
Regarding your Rorqual Comment, this will change too, since in the CSM minutes has been stated at page 133 Offgrid boosts will get removed, so i'm pretty sure will Rorqual Offgrid boost getting affected by this removal in the Future too, meants the Rorqal will have to be in the belt or somewhere on the Gridd in INDUCORE Mode to give maximum Boost.......Lets see how this will went if this change hits TQ as well.
Sincerly
Carola Kessler |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
358
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 10:26:00 -
[169] - Quote
Carola Kessler wrote:Jagoff Haverford wrote:[quote=Sofia Wolf]
And Miner B isn't really solo. His Alliance has a fleet going at all times, with boosts coming from an off-grid Rorqual that, for reasons of safety in 0.0 space, is never going to visit the belt to drop off crystals for anybody.
Regarding your Rorqual Comment, this will change too, since in the CSM minutes has been stated at page 133 Offgrid boosts will get removed, so i'm pretty sure will Rorqual Offgrid boost getting affected by this removal in the Future too, meants the Rorqal will have to be in the belt or somewhere on the Gridd in INDUCORE Mode to give maximum Boost.......Lets see how this will went if this change hits TQ as well. Sincerly Carola Kessler
there's no way people are going to put some thing as expensive and vulnerable as a rorq on grid for boosts. you're gonna have orcas that are perma aligned, which will be drifting away from the mining ships which means re-supplying crystals is going to be an absolute pain in the *******.
these changes get worse, and worse. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1787
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 11:01:00 -
[170] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote: They might not make it any more exciting
I suggest this will be the focus of a future expansion. Making a most boring profession equally profitable for all ships, does not really mean it's the improvement that miners are waiting for since many years.
Ogogov wrote:All the barges are getting their tanks adjusted to favor shields rather than structure hit points
Meanwhile, Gallente combat ships still favor structure hit points. HURRRRRRR.[/quote]
Because Gallente ships have 2 low slots... oh wait. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Freibuis
Legion of Lost Souls The Lego Cartel
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 11:01:00 -
[171] - Quote
Quote:The barges are primarily mining ships, which means that regardless of what else they do, they have to be good at mining. The difference between the lowest and highest mining output was way too much, so the first thing we did was to bring the mining outputs of the different barges closer together. Hulk is still the king of yield, but the others are not so far behind as to be redundant.
I like what I am hearing, but!!!!!!
So let me get this right, since there is almost no out put difference between a hulk and a retriever (since outputs now are closer then pre this patch) why would you spend 264M Isk when you can buy the almost the same ship for 13M isk
are we going to see a re balance in price? are we going to see inputs for the retriever more to compensate the fact that it will be better then it is now?
|
Jagoff Haverford
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort Get Off My Lawn
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 11:03:00 -
[172] - Quote
Carola Kessler wrote:... in the CSM minutes has been stated at page 133... How on earth did you stay awake through 133 pages of that stream of transcripted diarrhea to find this one nugget of useful information? I am deeply impressed.
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
358
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 11:10:00 -
[173] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:CCP Tallest wrote: They might not make it any more exciting
I suggest this will be the focus of a future expansion. Making a most boring profession equally profitable for all ships, does not really mean it's the improvement that miners are waiting for since many years.
let's look at the whole sentence
Quote:They might not make it any more exciting, but at least miners will have to make some meaningful decisions before they undock.
crystals aren't a meaningful choice, at all. choice of ship is meaningful, however crystals are not.
even more so when it only causes an issue for 1 role rather than all of them. the worst part is it makes mining less interesting, it's really that simple. nobody wants to waste time faffing around with crystals that's why we just put all of them in our cargo bay and off we went and it was fine until ccp decided in their infinite stupidity to make it an issue. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jimmy Watson
Section 5
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 11:12:00 -
[174] - Quote
Well I don't like it......I don't like it at all!!
Page 9 on a mining dev blog and NO Chribba?
Isn't anyone else getting worried......WTFIC! (where the **** is chribba)
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
358
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 11:15:00 -
[175] - Quote
Jimmy Watson wrote:Well I don't like it......I don't like it at all!!
Page 9 on a mining dev blog and NO Chribba?
Isn't anyone else getting worried......WTFIC! (where the **** is chribba)
he mines in a dread, exhumers aren't on his radar :P Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Duvida
The Scope Gallente Federation
82
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 11:17:00 -
[176] - Quote
Chribba! Oh Chrrrriiiiibbbbaaaa..... !
Oh, I had a question too, will the size of the packaged ships remain the same? (If I missed it in the notes, it was because I was looking for Chribba) |
suun Leeh
Black Core Federation Black Core Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 11:33:00 -
[177] - Quote
Ok so maybe im missing something. :
The hulk will now have a cargo hold m3 space of 350m3 and is suppose to hold 4 sets of mining crystals
This is where i am having a proble understanding how that is possible. A T1 veldspar mining crystal is 30 m3 1 set is 30m3x3=90m3x4 sets =360m3? 360 does not equal 350 and that is just the t1. Now if we do t2 A t2 veldspar mining crystal is 50m3 1 set 50m3x3=150m3 x 4 sets well thats is 600m3
Are the sizes of the mining crystals being changed? or am i just completely whacky? |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
360
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 11:35:00 -
[178] - Quote
suun Leeh wrote:Ok so maybe im missing something. :
The hulk will now have a cargo hold m3 space of 350m3 and is suppose to hold 4 sets of mining crystals
This is where i am having a proble understanding how that is possible. A T1 veldspar mining crystal is 30 m3 1 set is 30m3x3=90m3x4 sets =360m3? 360 does not equal 350 and that is just the t1. Now if we do t2 A t2 veldspar mining crystal is 50m3 1 set 50m3x3=150m3 x 4 sets well thats is 600m3
Are the sizes of the mining crystals being changed? or am i just completely whacky?
they are counting a set of crystals already loaded in the strips. also crystals are 15m3 and 25m3 for t1 and t2 respectively. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Octoven
Four Pillar Production Dragehund
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 11:47:00 -
[179] - Quote
Overall good changes, barges definitely needed revamped but one major issue I have is on SISI currently, the hulk and mackinaw are dead even in terms of mining ice, the hulk doesnt win in that regard mainly because the mack has a better tank.
However, how many miners do you see out in the ice fields mining solo? Typically mining ice is for POS fuels and typically there is more than one individual involved in said structure's fueling such as a whole corporation. Most of the time I don't see macks out mining ice anymore, I see hulks and orcas and this is BEFORE the change even has happened. The mackinaw is great for solo mining in the ore fields but even then most of the people who do that as well will use a retriever simply because its cheaper.
Even if mackinaws start showing up a bit more in ore belts, by making the hulk superior in ore AND ice you pretty much kill the need for even needing the mackinaw in the ice fields. To be honest, I think the way SISI has it set up now is fine. Leave the hulk and mack equal in regards to ice or at the very least make ice bonuses to be slightly more than the cov but less than the hulk. Its no longer just an ice vessel I agree, but these new changes based on the last minute decision on CCP's part pretty much eliminate macks out of ice belts period. |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc. Varangon Tagma
51
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 11:49:00 -
[180] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Sofia Wolf wrote:The way you describe it pilot B is solo miner so he should be using Mackinaw or Retriever instead of Hulk. That's clearly where CCP is going with this, I agree. But again, why should this limitation apply only to those who mine in 0.0 and wormhole space? Those in Empire are completely unaffected by this cargohold problem, and can continue to use the ship with the highest output. They can stay in their NPC corps and solo mine in a Hulk as much as they every did, with no need to think about things prior to undocking.... here.
You have a point there but I personalty would still prefer Mackinaw to Hulk for high sec solo mining because I donGÇÖt risk someone stealing/fliping my ore canister. |
|
Mozno Nelson
PM Development
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 12:04:00 -
[181] - Quote
Just a quick question, do you still need Industry V to learn Mining Barges?
As an aspiring Miner those 5 days for a useless skill (at least for me at this point) are a pain in the... you know what :) |
Carola Kessler
Lost Sisters Of New Eden Freelancer Coalition
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 12:25:00 -
[182] - Quote
Mozno Nelson wrote:Just a quick question, do you still need Industry V to learn Mining Barges?
As an aspiring Miner those 5 days for a useless skill (at least for me at this point) are a pain in the... you know what :)
Does it matter? Really? Doesn't the Change show you how much CCP is liking the Miners......'Not' !
Doesn't it allready show yours in whose favor the changes have been taken back to the Level as they are yet after bulks of Gankers screamed out to CCP 'Foul...foul!' after the first changes hit Sisi?
To be absolute honest, for me it slowly shows only thing, CCP is hardly working on it to get mining beeing the really worsest job within Eve and to make the barrel full, they again showed their favoritismn towards gankers and such so Miners are again slapped straigth in their face.
So why even bother anymore.....just learn for something more fun and don't start to break your brain about the prerequisites needed for a Mining Barke / Exhumer...soon we're getting to a point CCP is going to render the ships needed straigth out of the NPC's Agents butts and no industrial players will be needed again so the PvPlers and others can happyly shooting each other without even to fear they will run out of supply. *end of rant*
sincerly
Carola Kessler
|
Mozno Nelson
PM Development
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 13:03:00 -
[183] - Quote
Thank you very much for your whine, but that was not an answer ;)
If you don-¦t like something in a game, switch to another professsion that suits you more, i welcome the changes. Just play what you like doing.
Back to my question does anyone knows if you need Industry V for the Minng Barges skill?
Please do not answer to a simple question with "I do not know, but this patch sucks anyway!" :/ |
Carola Kessler
Lost Sisters Of New Eden Freelancer Coalition
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 13:08:00 -
[184] - Quote
Mozno Nelson wrote:Thank you very much for your whine, but that was not an answer ;)
If you don-¦t like something in a game, switch to another professsion that suits you more, i welcome the changes. Just play what you like doing.
Back to my question does anyone knows if you need Industry V for the Minng Barges skill?
Please do not answer to a simple question with "I do not know, but this patch sucks anyway!" :/
Allrigth, to answer your question, checked back on Sisi...YES it still requires Industry on level 5 to be able to fly a Mining Barge.
Sincerly
Carola Kessler |
Mozno Nelson
PM Development
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 13:16:00 -
[185] - Quote
Thank you very much :) |
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
56
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 13:17:00 -
[186] - Quote
Didn't see this issue (from here) addressed in the blog or dev posts in this thread yet :
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, thanks for the feedback, here are some answers for you.
- WILL THE NEW ORE BAY ON MINING BARGES SHOW UP ON SCAN OR DROP ORE WHEN THE SHIP IS DESTROYED? That question is still being investigated and will be tackled when we get to the actual mining barge balancing.
So after this patch will I be or ? Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
suun Leeh
Black Core Federation Black Core Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 13:22:00 -
[187] - Quote
"they are counting a set of crystals already loaded in the strips. also crystals are 15m3 and 25m3 for t1 and t2 respectively."
So the size of the mining crystals are now different ? Cause currently on Tranq they are 30m3 and 50 m3]
|
suun Leeh
Black Core Federation Black Core Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 13:23:00 -
[188] - Quote
suun Leeh wrote:"they are counting a set of crystals already loaded in the strips. also crystals are 15m3 and 25m3 for t1 and t2 respectively."
So the size of the mining crystals are now different ? Cause currently on Tranq they are 30m3 and 50 m3]
Also the dev blog says 4 spare sets not 3 spare and one loaded in strip miners |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
360
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 14:04:00 -
[189] - Quote
suun Leeh wrote:"they are counting a set of crystals already loaded in the strips. also crystals are 15m3 and 25m3 for t1 and t2 respectively."
So the size of the mining crystals are now different ? Cause currently on Tranq they are 30m3 and 50 m3]
on sisi they're 15 and 25, have been for about a week, give or take. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Danny Centauri
Oberon Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 14:15:00 -
[190] - Quote
As someone with 10 indy alts I approve of these changes, it eventually puts risk reward in balance for mining.
The hulk is now only a viable option if you are in a mining fleet, including scouts in surrounding systems to watch for ganking fleets. Forcing collaboration is good!
The mackinaw is going to be my choice for ICE mining fleets as I can go AFK for 40 mins without any worries. Also it is more resiliant should a couple of dessies come along and take pot shots.
The skiff will be my choice for fleets should anything like Hulkageddon occur in the future making it an expensive task to destroy my mining fleet.
See this all makes a lot of sense to me for mining in highsec, my crystals are in my orca anyway. I don't see what all the whining is about, in null and wspace its probably better to use something with more HP anyway or you are going to have scouts in neibouring systems so you can use an orca on grid. |
|
Ruareve
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
66
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 14:43:00 -
[191] - Quote
Danny Centauri wrote:As someone with 10 indy alts I approve of these changes, it eventually puts risk reward in balance for mining.
The hulk is now only a viable option if you are in a mining fleet, including scouts in surrounding systems to watch for ganking fleets. Forcing collaboration is good!
The mackinaw is going to be my choice for ICE mining fleets as I can go AFK for 40 mins without any worries. Also it is more resiliant should a couple of dessies come along and take pot shots.
The skiff will be my choice for fleets should anything like Hulkageddon occur in the future making it an expensive task to destroy my mining fleet.
See this all makes a lot of sense to me for mining in highsec, my crystals are in my orca anyway. I don't see what all the whining is about, in null and wspace its probably better to use something with more HP anyway or you are going to have scouts in neibouring systems so you can use an orca on grid with hulks.
Great changes all in all.
The problem is the Hulk with low EHP won't be a viable choice for high sec fleets. To survive in high sec the Hulk will need to have substantial EHP to make the thought of ganking not worth the required loss of isk. Sure it might be great for null space or WH where the defending fleet can intercept attackers before they do damage, but in high sec the only survival option for a hulk will be to try and run. How does that make sense? Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/ |
CRNA
Exploring Blind TECH
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 14:44:00 -
[192] - Quote
As someone who has a fleet of maxed out hulks and mackiaws (all implants) and someone with a maxed out Rorqural pilot, (did we forget T2 links) - I can tell you the number of m3 of ore and cubes of ice is wrong.
A completely skilled, maxed out mackinaw pilot produces 90 blocks per hour, and a hulk pilot maxed 202k m3 per hour. It scares me that if rolled out as planned, this is going to reduce yields and is being called an improvement.
One thing that maybe I missed is that the blog mentioned fitting rigs to increase yield, can anyone speak to this? |
Beidorion eldwardan
Corporation Danmark Tactical Narcotics Team
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 14:52:00 -
[193] - Quote
as always.... CCP never leaves a chance to fail at improving aspects of the game for all sides
i salute you CCP i cant wait to see just how badly you'll screw up on the pos nerf, because i have long since stopped hoping that you'd improve things
you say you play the game, but really...... running the toturial isnt playing
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
360
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 14:53:00 -
[194] - Quote
CRNA wrote:As someone who has a fleet of maxed out hulks and mackiaws (all implants) and someone with a maxed out Rorqural pilot, (did we forget T2 links) - I can tell you the number of m3 of ore and cubes of ice is wrong.
A completely skilled, maxed out mackinaw pilot produces 90 blocks per hour, and a hulk pilot maxed 202k m3 per hour. It scares me that if rolled out as planned, this is going to reduce yields and is being called an improvement.
One thing that maybe I missed is that the blog mentioned fitting rigs to increase yield, can anyone speak to this?
the only way i managed to get 73 blocks from a hulk was with orca bonuses, not rorq bonuses, and no implant, 2x mlus, rig, and t2 harvesters, with ice harvesting V
unless this is what ccp was using, it reeks of potential nerf. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
CRNA
Exploring Blind TECH
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 15:07:00 -
[195] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:CRNA wrote:As someone who has a fleet of maxed out hulks and mackiaws (all implants) and someone with a maxed out Rorqural pilot, (did we forget T2 links) - I can tell you the number of m3 of ore and cubes of ice is wrong.
A completely skilled, maxed out mackinaw pilot produces 90 blocks per hour, and a hulk pilot maxed 202k m3 per hour. It scares me that if rolled out as planned, this is going to reduce yields and is being called an improvement.
One thing that maybe I missed is that the blog mentioned fitting rigs to increase yield, can anyone speak to this? the only way i managed to get 73 blocks from a hulk was with orca bonuses, not rorq bonuses, and no implant, 2x mlus, rig, and t2 harvesters, with ice harvesting V unless this is what ccp was using, it reeks of potential nerf.
I think you mean mackinaw, just for the sake of clarity, my numbers were ore for hulk, ice for mackinaw.
I'm also a bit puzzled by these 'yield rigs' -is this something that I just missed, because Im not aware of anything like that in game, and Im hyper-aware of mining stuff.
I'm guessing when they ran their numbers they forgot T2 mining links in the rorq. I'm just concerned this is actually going to decrease yield, can anyone from CCP confirm? I can post exact numbers for cycle time and yield per cycle (and login toons) if that would help |
TheLostPenguin
Surreal Departure
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 15:07:00 -
[196] - Quote
Ruareve wrote:Danny Centauri wrote:As someone with 10 indy alts I approve of these changes, it eventually puts risk reward in balance for mining.
The hulk is now only a viable option if you are in a mining fleet, including scouts in surrounding systems to watch for ganking fleets. Forcing collaboration is good!
The mackinaw is going to be my choice for ICE mining fleets as I can go AFK for 40 mins without any worries. Also it is more resiliant should a couple of dessies come along and take pot shots.
The skiff will be my choice for fleets should anything like Hulkageddon occur in the future making it an expensive task to destroy my mining fleet.
See this all makes a lot of sense to me for mining in highsec, my crystals are in my orca anyway. I don't see what all the whining is about, in null and wspace its probably better to use something with more HP anyway or you are going to have scouts in neibouring systems so you can use an orca on grid with hulks.
Great changes all in all. The problem is the Hulk with low EHP won't be a viable choice for high sec fleets. To survive in high sec the Hulk will need to have substantial EHP to make the thought of ganking not worth the required loss of isk. Sure it might be great for null space or WH where the defending fleet can intercept attackers before they do damage, but in high sec the only survival option for a hulk will be to try and run. How does that make sense?
Hulk already dies if someone sneezes at it, and yet plenty of people still fly them. In fact most people still seem to fly them untanked, and just watch local for the known gankers in area, with the attitude of "oh well if it happens it happens" towards being ganked.
Just because Hulk will still die if someone sneezes at it wont make people stop flying them, the only real usage case I see Hulk losing out on is the solo miner/small non-orca fleets, where mack suddenly looks awesome with all that ore bay for little yield compromise. |
Goods Mover
Fusion Tech Daisho Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 15:09:00 -
[197] - Quote
Madam Isk wrote:Will existing hulks get their rig's "refunded"? I'm sure I'm not the only one that invested in T2 cargo rigs for my hulk that are now worthless so I'm hoping they will be de-equipped so I can sell or re-purpose them.
I too want to know this. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
360
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 15:11:00 -
[198] - Quote
CRNA wrote:Dave stark wrote:CRNA wrote:As someone who has a fleet of maxed out hulks and mackiaws (all implants) and someone with a maxed out Rorqural pilot, (did we forget T2 links) - I can tell you the number of m3 of ore and cubes of ice is wrong.
A completely skilled, maxed out mackinaw pilot produces 90 blocks per hour, and a hulk pilot maxed 202k m3 per hour. It scares me that if rolled out as planned, this is going to reduce yields and is being called an improvement.
One thing that maybe I missed is that the blog mentioned fitting rigs to increase yield, can anyone speak to this? the only way i managed to get 73 blocks from a hulk was with orca bonuses, not rorq bonuses, and no implant, 2x mlus, rig, and t2 harvesters, with ice harvesting V unless this is what ccp was using, it reeks of potential nerf. I think you mean mackinaw, just for the sake of clarity, my numbers were ore for hulk, ice for mackinaw. I'm also a bit puzzled by these 'yield rigs' -is this something that I just missed, because Im not aware of anything like that in game, and Im hyper-aware of mining stuff. I'm guessing when they ran their numbers they forgot T2 mining links in the rorq. I'm just concerned this is actually going to decrease yield, can anyone from CCP confirm? I can post exact numbers for cycle time and yield per cycle (and login toons) if that would help
no, i mean the post patch hulk. it will do 73 blocks of ice with the set up i listed, other people are getting the same numbers as me.
the rigs are new with the patch. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
TheLostPenguin
Surreal Departure
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 15:18:00 -
[199] - Quote
Goods Mover wrote:Madam Isk wrote:Will existing hulks get their rig's "refunded"? I'm sure I'm not the only one that invested in T2 cargo rigs for my hulk that are now worthless so I'm hoping they will be de-equipped so I can sell or re-purpose them. I too want to know this.
I don't see anything that says calibration/rig slots are being changed, so no, you wont get any rigs refunded because your ship is still perfectly capable of fitting said rigs. The only time CCP would do something like that is if they were say reducing the calibration amount and your rig loadout wouldn't be possible with the new stat, just because something is no longer optimal because of changes made isn't their problem, your response is just going to be "HTFU and move on". |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 15:21:00 -
[200] - Quote
Carola Kessler wrote:Jagoff Haverford wrote:[quote=Sofia Wolf]
And Miner B isn't really solo. His Alliance has a fleet going at all times, with boosts coming from an off-grid Rorqual that, for reasons of safety in 0.0 space, is never going to visit the belt to drop off crystals for anybody.
Regarding your Rorqual Comment, this will change too, since in the CSM minutes has been stated at page 133 Offgrid boosts will get removed, so i'm pretty sure will Rorqual Offgrid boost getting affected by this removal in the Future too, meants the Rorqal will have to be in the belt or somewhere on the Gridd in INDUCORE Mode to give maximum Boost.......Lets see how this will went if this change hits TQ as well. Sincerly Carola Kessler
so let's hope for an anchorable shield bubble |
|
Echo Mande
32
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 15:40:00 -
[201] - Quote
suun Leeh wrote:"they are counting a set of crystals already loaded in the strips. also crystals are 15m3 and 25m3 for t1 and t2 respectively."
So the size of the mining crystals are now different ? Cause currently on Tranq they are 30m3 and 50 m3]
Mining crystal size is getting cut in half. Reread the 'Cargo' section of the devblog. |
Goods Mover
Fusion Tech Daisho Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 15:47:00 -
[202] - Quote
TheLostPenguin wrote:Goods Mover wrote:Madam Isk wrote:Will existing hulks get their rig's "refunded"? I'm sure I'm not the only one that invested in T2 cargo rigs for my hulk that are now worthless so I'm hoping they will be de-equipped so I can sell or re-purpose them. I too want to know this. I don't see anything that says calibration/rig slots are being changed, so no, you wont get any rigs refunded because your ship is still perfectly capable of fitting said rigs. The only time CCP would do something like that is if they were say reducing the calibration amount and your rig loadout wouldn't be possible with the new stat, just because something is no longer optimal because of changes made isn't their problem, your response is just going to be "HTFU and move on".
This is true, they are still able to fit said rigs..however, since I put the rigs on specifically because they didn't have an ore bay and needed more space, and now they are changing the roles and thus the rigs needed-I now need to fit type specific mining rigs to get max yield-I think that the rigs should be removed in the patch process for me to put back on if those are the ones I want.
|
CRNA
Exploring Blind TECH
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 16:03:00 -
[203] - Quote
Can we get a CCP comment about on-grid/off grid boosting as well.
You simply cannot put a rorq into siege mode in a belt with the current setup - if this is done, will be the biggest nerf for 0.0 miners ever seen. If they did do this, you'd have to completely change the cycle time, and add boosts to tank - like a dread, to have it make any type of sense. Maybe just change the boosting to the same way an orca works - and only need the industrial core for compression at the pos (this is the best option if you make the change, IMHO)
Also while we're fixing mining stuff - let's increase the rate of which you can compress ice to make it somewhat closer to that of ore (it currently takes 100x ish as long), and make it possible to compress from the rorq's ice/ore hold - less clicking FTW |
Lirinas
B.C.C.O.F Investments
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 16:15:00 -
[204] - Quote
I see no reason why they'd refund rigs, nor would I expect it. However, I would like to see rigs removed from existing barges. I know at least one of my old Hulks was rigged with T2 rigs for extra cargospace, for when capacity was more important than output. Obviously the use of those rigs would be severely reduced to the point that other, newer rigs would be much more useful. |
Ash811
Red White and Screwed
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 16:21:00 -
[205] - Quote
I just want to say that I really like these changes, giving each mining barge/exhumer a designated "role" now, I just want to point out the problem I see with the drone bays.
If the retriever/mack are supposed to be the soloer's barge, then shouldn't they be the ones with the 50m3 drone bay? Giving them the ability to mine with their drones, but also defend themselves from the rats as well.
Whereas the hulk/covetor being the fleet miners, should have to choose whether they use the bay for mining or for defense, since they're supposed to need support anyways.
Just curious, thanks! |
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 16:26:00 -
[206] - Quote
CRNA wrote:Can we get a CCP comment about on-grid/off grid boosting as well.
You simply cannot put a rorq into siege mode in a belt with the current setup - if this is done, will be the biggest nerf for 0.0 miners ever seen. If they did do this, you'd have to completely change the cycle time, and add boosts to tank - like a dread, to have it make any type of sense. Dread like bonuses wouldn't do anything. A 3bn ISK ship with a 1bn ISK implant in a belt that cannot move for minutes lives on borrowed time the moment you press the button. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
502
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 16:59:00 -
[207] - Quote
is there going to be a tech II version of the mining frig?
can it be a gas harvesting specialist? Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Jagoff Haverford
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort Get Off My Lawn
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 17:01:00 -
[208] - Quote
I've been so focused upon mining crystals and cargo size that I more or less ignored the EHP numbers. The dev blog already tells me what the EHP values are going to be. Does anyone have comparable numbers for what they are now? |
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
16
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 17:03:00 -
[209] - Quote
on grid boosting... sorry if it happens my orca, rorq and I will never be on grid in a WH (they sure as hell aren't now), to easy to get a first hit scan with combats and never see them due to not hitting the dscan button fast enough. (you know that pause as you move ore around) Which of course means head to hisec and get that other clone up ... the one without the 1 bil implant.
as for fixing things... fix my rorq compression. having 5 windows upen to do compression is crazy... memorizing compression amounts so you get a full run stupid. and then to top it off if the timer on a run is less than a minute that compression line shows as empty which can result in four empty lines to select from only one of which is really empty. By the time you find that one I have had all three lines finish. give me one window, like PI. the ore bay is input, the cargo bay is ouput and I have four lines that I can drop a BPO into to that will run til the input ore runs out or I click on them to stop. KISS.
Make ore bays work for gas, ice and minerals. THen give us a gas strip harvestor and some gas MLUs and maybe a gas rig. nothing like the soul sucking C540 cloud to make you want something that gives you more than 20 units of material each minute with boosts.
As for the new changes. I by an large like them even if there are a few warts. Granted you just made it harder for me to kill all those tresspassers on my ore!
|
Ruareve
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
66
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 17:28:00 -
[210] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:I've been so focused upon mining crystals and cargo size that I more or less ignored the EHP numbers. The dev blog already tells me what the EHP values are going to be. Does anyone have comparable numbers for what they are now?
[Statistics - All five]
Effective HP: 9,145 (Eve: 7,608) Tank Ability: 21.90 DPS Shield Resists - EM: 37.50%, Ex: 65.00%, Ki: 62.50%, Th: 50.00% Armor Resists - EM: 60.00%, Ex: 10.00%, Ki: 25.00%, Th: 35.00%
That's using skills at lvl 5 and omni damage. So a nerf to the EHP, a nerf to sig size, a boost to anyone wanting to gank a Hulk.
Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/ |
|
suun Leeh
Black Core Federation Black Core Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 17:29:00 -
[211] - Quote
Echo Mande wrote:suun Leeh wrote:"they are counting a set of crystals already loaded in the strips. also crystals are 15m3 and 25m3 for t1 and t2 respectively."
So the size of the mining crystals are now different ? Cause currently on Tranq they are 30m3 and 50 m3]
Mining crystal size is getting cut in half. Reread the ' Cargo' section of the devblog.
So they did. Thank you for pointing it out. i must have skimmed over that part :(. |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
492
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 19:41:00 -
[212] - Quote
What about drones? Last thread meant that barges would only carry 3 drones max, that wouldn't be enough to effectively deal with 0.5 rats with a unskilled miner (why should a miner skill up drones to use T2 just to defend from belt rats?) "We want your help to convince management to develop Incarna into 3rd person shooter dungeon raiding with friendly fire in nullsec space..."
Seriously, Team Avatar? |
niishke
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 20:00:00 -
[213] - Quote
Quote:. . . made for protection against suicide gank . . . You can tell who this ridiculous EHP buff is catered towards.
Everybody say it with me. It references an 80's children's cartoon. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
539
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 20:24:00 -
[214] - Quote
niishke wrote:Quote:. . . made for protection against suicide gank . . . You can tell who this ridiculous EHP buff is catered towards. Everybody say it with me. It references an 80's children's cartoon.
Except the carebears people complain about, are the ones who'll keep on using hulks and complaining when they pop. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
91
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 20:52:00 -
[215] - Quote
The Atron losing its drone bay makes me a sad panda. |
Esceem
Suns of New Eden
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 21:27:00 -
[216] - Quote
Currently, barges have a "CCP didn't bother to delvelop race specific mining ships" written all over them. In flashing neon lights.
It just doesn't fit into our EVE universe that the races of New Eden hate and fight each other but are all happily flying the very same range of mining ships (The same applies to the Noctis and Orca btw.).
Maybe stop for a minute and imagine the potential that such an approach could offer...
Race specific mining techniques including bonusses for local ore types in combination with racial tanking and defence methods etc...
This would be a true enrichment for EVE.
|
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
91
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 21:29:00 -
[217] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:The ore hold on the Hulk on Sisi is at 7500. Is there a planned boost or is there an error in the dev blog?
The Orca in your fleet is your main ore hold for a Hulk after the patch.. they cover that.. |
Rooter Danaro
Grey Toxic Sword Inver Brass
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 21:39:00 -
[218] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:I know this is pointless, but let me make one last attempt.
We are being told that Hulks and Covetors are being limited to 5 sets of crystals because it will "force pilots to make some decisions" before undocking. In other threads, some of you have also claimed that this limitation will force fleets to be come up with a plan about who will be mining what.
The problem here is that this change will not place any such burden on most miners. Instead, it will only affect the subset of miners who operate in SOV and wormhole space.
Let's take Miner A, who lives in Amarrian Empire space. Gravitational sites rarely spawn in his systems, and he really doesn't bother looking for them. Instead, his mining is limited to just the four ores that appear in Amarrian high sec -- Veldspar, Scordite, Pyroxeres, and Kernite. He hasn't even bothered to train the ore specialization skills for any of the other ores, because he never even sees them. When he gets home from work and goes mining, he just jumps in his Hulk. It's strip miners are already loaded with 3 Veldspar crystals (from the last op). His cargo bay already contains 3 Scordite, 3 Pyroxeres, and 3 Kernite crystals (taking up 225 cubic meters), plus one spare crystal for each of the 4 ore types in his system. No forethought, no planning, and no communication with other miners is needed. His Hulk is always ready to go.
Miner B lives in SOV null sec space, in an alliance with a number of other corps. Most of his mining takes place in gravitational sites, and the miners in his alliance have worked hard to upgrade their main mining system to both reach and maintain the desired industry level. They have a large asteroid cluster spawned in the system at all times, and it contains 12 different ore types. To be able to mine in these belts (plus the regular belts that appear in his system), he has had to train 4 times longer than Miner A, since he needs to mine all 16 different ore types in the game.
When Miner B gets home from work and wants to go mining, other alliance members have already been in the belt ahead of him. There's no way of knowing what kinds of ores are still in the belt, how many units are remaining, or where those asteroids are located in relation to one another. One of the bigger mining corps in his alliance is made up of primarily Russian speakers, and communication is difficult. In any event, it's already late in Russia and most of them have gone to bed. Another group of miners comes from the German corp. They are still in the belt, but language difficulties make it hard to have a conversation about ore types. So Miner B makes some random guesses about which ore types he might find when he lands in the belt, hoping for Arkonor, Bistot, Crokite, Hemorphite, and Hedbergite. He loads in 3 of those crystals apiece, and warps to the corp bookmark for the current large grave site.
When he lands, he realizes that his guesses were awful. All of the Arkonor is gone. The Germans have 3 Hulks hitting the last remaining Bistot rock with 3 lasers apiece. There are still 2 Crokite asteroids left, but they are far away from each other. and neither one is currently in range. He can't even scan them to see how much is left in them. There is one Hemorphite rock just 15 km away, but his scanner shows that it has only 520 units left in it. All of the other Hemorphite is too far away to either mine or examine with his survey scanner. His only lucky guess was Hedbergite. There is one untouched Hedgbergite rock within range. It could keep him mining for an hour or more, but not if he nails it with all 3 lasers at the same time. But what choice does he have? The only other rocks within range are 2 nicely-sized Kernites (that he doesn't have crystals for) and a Spodumain that nobody wants to bother with.
So he slowly turns his Hulk around, spends the painfully long aligning time writing down a list of the closest asteroids, makes a few bookmarks to some asteroids that are too far away to hit with his scanner (hoping that there is still a decent amount left in them) and warps back to the station. There he reloads with a different set of crystals, and heads back out to one of his new bookmarks. When he gets there, though, he finds that the Crokite that he warped in on is largely exhausted, and that there really are no other rocks in range.
He docks, shuts down Eve, and goes to play World of Tanks.
This Hulk configuration will only have its stated effect on Miner B. Miner A will get max yield without any need to make choices. Miner B -- who has already paid a price in having to train all those different ore specialization skills and working with less efficient refineries -- is essentially forced to choose a less efficient ship.
Nothing I say here will change anything. But I thought I would make one last attempt to explain why those of us who live in these asteroid cluster sites really do need to carry more than just 13 crystals into the belts.
I support this statement in full. That is, say racial minerals and not those who are fond of talk crazy not knowing what I mean. It is a pity that so the truth is nobody wants to listen to players and developers are so in love with his ideas of time, we can very difficult for the game. |
|
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
4353
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 21:42:00 -
[219] - Quote
Jimmy Watson wrote:Well I don't like it......I don't like it at all!!
Page 9 on a mining dev blog and NO Chribba?
Isn't anyone else getting worried......WTFIC! (where the **** is chribba)
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee I'm here, there, and over there.
|
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
360
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 21:44:00 -
[220] - Quote
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Droxlyn wrote:The ore hold on the Hulk on Sisi is at 7500. Is there a planned boost or is there an error in the dev blog? The Orca in your fleet is your main ore hold for a Hulk after the patch.. they cover that..
congratulations on totally missing the point.
sisi hulk has 7500 ore bay, the dev blog says it has more, hence asking which is correct. it has nothing to do with orcas. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
CRNA
Exploring Blind TECH
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 21:57:00 -
[221] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:CRNA wrote:Can we get a CCP comment about on-grid/off grid boosting as well.
You simply cannot put a rorq into siege mode in a belt with the current setup - if this is done, will be the biggest nerf for 0.0 miners ever seen. If they did do this, you'd have to completely change the cycle time, and add boosts to tank - like a dread, to have it make any type of sense. Dread like bonuses wouldn't do anything. A 3bn ISK ship with a 1bn ISK implant in a belt that cannot move for minutes lives on borrowed time the moment you press the button.
Yeah I'm agreeing with you (or rather you with me). This needs to be addressed...
You could bonus the ship enough that it would work, but not requiring siege to get full bonuses would be the best, if you must be on grid to boost.
|
Betrinna Cantis
28
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 23:50:00 -
[222] - Quote
Madam Isk wrote:Will existing hulks get their rig's "refunded"? I'm sure I'm not the only one that invested in T2 cargo rigs for my hulk that are now worthless so I'm hoping they will be de-equipped so I can sell or re-purpose them. I approve this message.... Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares..... |
ChaoticDemon
Vintas Industries Mistakes Were Made.
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 01:07:00 -
[223] - Quote
If need to be on grid to boost might as well eliminate the rorq from game since will be useless on an atm 3 bill+ ship also I know people that have cargo rigged their hulks so could fit 2 cycles of ore in case had to do a bio break etc. Now those rigs are useless. All exhumers/barges should be able to hold at least 1 full set of t2 crystals for all types make them smaller or an ammo hold if don't want them competeing with industrials |
Betrinna Cantis
28
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 02:45:00 -
[224] - Quote
Mal Nina wrote:There is a nerf...
I used to be able to take my exhumer and configure it as desired with rigs of my choice and it still had its mercoxit bonus or its Ice bonus. Now, if I want to go after either of those materials at the same rate I must use a rig slot to put in the appropriate bonus item. That is what I call a nerf. Not a big deal perhaps, but rigs are permanant, to change them is to destroy them. I would have rather seen a T1 low or midslot module that can be swapped out on whenever I need to change what I am after. That would be great!
Or maybe a Subsystem so they could be moved around ship to ship. Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares..... |
Synthmilk
The United Peoples of Synth
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 03:02:00 -
[225] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:I know this is pointless, but let me make one last attempt.
We are being told that Hulks and Covetors are being limited to 5 sets of crystals because it will "force pilots to make some decisions" before undocking. In other threads, some of you have also claimed that this limitation will force fleets to be come up with a plan about who will be mining what.
The problem here is that this change will not place any such burden on most miners. Instead, it will only affect the subset of miners who operate in SOV and wormhole space.
Let's take Miner A, who lives in Amarrian Empire space. Gravitational sites rarely spawn in his systems, and he really doesn't bother looking for them. Instead, his mining is limited to just the four ores that appear in Amarrian high sec -- Veldspar, Scordite, Pyroxeres, and Kernite. He hasn't even bothered to train the ore specialization skills for any of the other ores, because he never even sees them. When he gets home from work and goes mining, he just jumps in his Hulk. It's strip miners are already loaded with 3 Veldspar crystals (from the last op). His cargo bay already contains 3 Scordite, 3 Pyroxeres, and 3 Kernite crystals (taking up 225 cubic meters), plus one spare crystal for each of the 4 ore types in his system. No forethought, no planning, and no communication with other miners is needed. His Hulk is always ready to go.
Miner B lives in SOV null sec space, in an alliance with a number of other corps. Most of his mining takes place in gravitational sites, and the miners in his alliance have worked hard to upgrade their main mining system to both reach and maintain the desired industry level. They have a large asteroid cluster spawned in the system at all times, and it contains 12 different ore types. To be able to mine in these belts (plus the regular belts that appear in his system), he has had to train 4 times longer than Miner A, since he needs to mine all 16 different ore types in the game.
When Miner B gets home from work and wants to go mining, other alliance members have already been in the belt ahead of him. There's no way of knowing what kinds of ores are still in the belt, how many units are remaining, or where those asteroids are located in relation to one another. One of the bigger mining corps in his alliance is made up of primarily Russian speakers, and communication is difficult. In any event, it's already late in Russia and most of them have gone to bed. Another group of miners comes from the German corp. They are still in the belt, but language difficulties make it hard to have a conversation about ore types. So Miner B makes some random guesses about which ore types he might find when he lands in the belt, hoping for Arkonor, Bistot, Crokite, Hemorphite, and Hedbergite. He loads in 3 of those crystals apiece, and warps to the corp bookmark for the current large grave site.
When he lands, he realizes that his guesses were awful. All of the Arkonor is gone. The Germans have 3 Hulks hitting the last remaining Bistot rock with 3 lasers apiece. There are still 2 Crokite asteroids left, but they are far away from each other. and neither one is currently in range. He can't even scan them to see how much is left in them. There is one Hemorphite rock just 15 km away, but his scanner shows that it has only 520 units left in it. All of the other Hemorphite is too far away to either mine or examine with his survey scanner. His only lucky guess was Hedbergite. There is one untouched Hedgbergite rock within range. It could keep him mining for an hour or more, but not if he nails it with all 3 lasers at the same time. But what choice does he have? The only other rocks within range are 2 nicely-sized Kernites (that he doesn't have crystals for) and a Spodumain that nobody wants to bother with.
So he slowly turns his Hulk around, spends the painfully long aligning time writing down a list of the closest asteroids, makes a few bookmarks to some asteroids that are too far away to hit with his scanner (hoping that there is still a decent amount left in them) and warps back to the station. There he reloads with a different set of crystals, and heads back out to one of his new bookmarks. When he gets there, though, he finds that the Crokite that he warped in on is largely exhausted, and that there really are no other rocks in range.
He docks, shuts down Eve, and goes to play World of Tanks.
This Hulk configuration will only have its stated effect on Miner B. Miner A will get max yield without any need to make choices. Miner B -- who has already paid a price in having to train all those different ore specialization skills and working with less efficient refineries -- is essentially forced to choose a less efficient ship.
Nothing I say here will change anything. But I thought I would make one last attempt to explain why those of us who live in these asteroid cluster sites really do need to carry more than just 13 crystals into the belts.
Firstly, both situations you proposed involve the pilot solo mining, for which the most efficient ship would be the Mackinaw, as it can hold 10 crystal sets and hold more than a single mining cycle of ore, thus allowing a solo pilot to have superior m3/hr thanks to fewer trips to station, compared to a Hulk.
Secondly, it's obvious that Player B is a complete idiot. 1) He is in an alliance where he doesn't speak the dominant languages in his chosen profession. 2) He is solo mining in a Hulk, who's role is fleet mining. 3) He knew there were fleets operating in the site, but didn't recon the belts in a frigate first to find one that was empty and/or to see what crystals he would need.
Thirdly, if I was running a mining corp where I knew there were solo miners, I would make a point of anchoring a LSC full of crystals in a site when it comes up, knowing they can't bring all possible crystal types they might need. |
nardaq
Orion Expeditions
24
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 03:37:00 -
[226] - Quote
some 1 explain me the part where, how on earth a hauler needs to manage the crystals the miners need
epic hauler senario
Miner a: i need veld and bistot soon hauler: omw miner B: dude hurry up, 4 cans full hauler b: your got xx crystals for miner D? miner E: I'm wasting cycles, im doing nothing, i need XX crystals ASAP hauler b: sigh..... miner a: dude, crystal dmg 98% you serious, get me NEW one hauler: aarrggg :( miner F: i need DO, hed, hem and after 10 min gneiss and crok, got it?
CCP, is this your new way of fleet mining? |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
246
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 03:56:00 -
[227] - Quote
Sounds like ammo issues during a POS bash |
Jagoff Haverford
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort Get Off My Lawn
28
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 03:59:00 -
[228] - Quote
nardaq wrote:some 1 explain me the part where, how on earth a hauler needs to manage the crystals the miners need
epic hauler senario
Miner a: i need veld and bistot soon hauler: omw miner B: dude hurry up, 4 cans full hauler b: your got xx crystals for miner D? miner E: I'm wasting cycles, im doing nothing, i need XX crystals ASAP hauler b: sigh..... miner a: dude, crystal dmg 98% you serious, get me NEW one hauler: aarrggg :( miner F: i need DO, hed, hem and after 10 min gneiss and crok, got it?
CCP, is this your new way of fleet mining? Miner G: WTF dude, the Bistot crystals I contracted you were almost brand new, these have like 70% damage on them? Hauler: Oh, and how the fk am I supposed to tell your Bistot crystals apart from Miner A's? Miner A: LOL thanks for the new crystals dude! BTW, Hauler, you never contracted those Hemo crystals back to me. Hauler: Screw both of you. I'm reprocessing all of your crystals along with the ore. |
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 05:16:00 -
[229] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Draconus Lofwyr wrote: Also, will the ORE frig be ready and available when the existing mioning frigs loose their bonuses? or will they just have to deal till you eventually get around to it?
The current mining frigates will not be losing their mining bonuses in Inferno 1.2, and we do not plan to leave people without entry level mining options.
You do know that the Tormentor has already been changed from a mining ship to combat.
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
360
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 06:46:00 -
[230] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:nardaq wrote:some 1 explain me the part where, how on earth a hauler needs to manage the crystals the miners need
epic hauler senario
Miner a: i need veld and bistot soon hauler: omw miner B: dude hurry up, 4 cans full hauler b: your got xx crystals for miner D? miner E: I'm wasting cycles, im doing nothing, i need XX crystals ASAP hauler b: sigh..... miner a: dude, crystal dmg 98% you serious, get me NEW one hauler: aarrggg :( miner F: i need DO, hed, hem and after 10 min gneiss and crok, got it?
CCP, is this your new way of fleet mining? Miner G: WTF dude, the Bistot crystals I contracted you were almost brand new, these have like 70% damage on them? Hauler: Oh, and how the fk am I supposed to tell your Bistot crystals apart from Miner A's? Miner A: LOL thanks for the new crystals dude! BTW, Hauler, you never contracted those Hemo crystals back to me. Hauler: Screw both of you. I'm reprocessing all of your crystals along with the ore.
yeah these new "meaningful choices" before we undock are going to make mining so much more fun.
right guys? right? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 06:46:00 -
[231] - Quote
OK you announced that you changed the 7.5% to 5% but on the test server the T2 resists are also gone from the exhumers
BASE shield resists Current hulk
EM 37.5% THERM 50% KIN 62.5% EXP 65%
Test Server
EM 0% THERM 20% KIN 40% EXP 50%
Is this a glitch?? |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
73
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 06:49:00 -
[232] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:there's no way people are going to put some thing as expensive and vulnerable as a rorq on grid for boosts. you're gonna have orcas that are perma aligned, which will be drifting away from the mining ships which means re-supplying crystals is going to be an absolute pain in the *******.
these changes get worse, and worse. You either have haulers bringing the ore to the station, or you yourself is warping off there from time to time. Have the haulers bring crystals back with them, or grab them when you yourself dock to drop off the ore. Alternatively, have them in the Orca and have it sit still, with an another ship standing by to web it into warp if it needs to get out.
TheLostPenguin wrote:Goods Mover wrote:Madam Isk wrote:Will existing hulks get their rig's "refunded"? I'm sure I'm not the only one that invested in T2 cargo rigs for my hulk that are now worthless so I'm hoping they will be de-equipped so I can sell or re-purpose them. I too want to know this. I don't see anything that says calibration/rig slots are being changed, so no, you wont get any rigs refunded because your ship is still perfectly capable of fitting said rigs. The only time CCP would do something like that is if they were say reducing the calibration amount and your rig loadout wouldn't be possible with the new stat, just because something is no longer optimal because of changes made isn't their problem, your response is just going to be "HTFU and move on". They've done similar things in the past, such as when they did the nano nerf and moved snakes etc to your hangar. Not sure about polycarbs and other speed rigs, but I think those were moved too. |
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 07:10:00 -
[233] - Quote
fido gotran over wrote:OK you announced that you changed the 7.5% to 5% but on the test server the T2 resists are also gone from the exhumers
BASE shield resists Current hulk
EM 37.5% THERM 50% KIN 62.5% EXP 65%
Test Server
EM 0% THERM 20% KIN 40% EXP 50%
Is this a glitch?? No, that's what switching from a built-in 7.5% bonus to a listed 5% bonus looks like. |
mjgvjbk
Rio Tinto Jnr Bluescope Mining
27
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 07:19:00 -
[234] - Quote
I fail to see why everyone needs to write epic novels about how something will or will not work, even though there are some very logical explanations and concerns BUT.....
CCP will roll out what ever they friggin like whether we like it or not whether it works or not, CCP's arrogance will never change.. welcome to eve ccp's eve. |
Miraqu
Blue Water Sailing Girls Escort Service
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 08:21:00 -
[235] - Quote
Will you make some gas mining rigs / strip miners? |
pussnheels
506
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 09:00:00 -
[236] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Hmm... if GoonSwarm members are in favor of these changes, there has to be something fundamentally wrong.
For some odd reason, I just can't buy into the idea that the instigators of the Gallente Ice Interdiction and co-sponsors of Hulkageddon would be supporting any sort of buff to miners, unless it makes them better targets for high-sec ganking.
And, ofc, you always have to question corestwo's interest in these changes - there must be an opportunity to rake in a substantial amount of ISK hidden in here somewhere. Manipulating market speculation on Skiffs, perhaps? :)
both the mack and the skiff will be the ships to use for nullsec mining , makinhg them less vulnerable to AFK cloakers , and other dangers , indirectly giving nullsec industry hope fully a boost , any nullsec alliance would approve of that
I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Borgholio
Quantum Industries TOHA Conglomerate
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 10:13:00 -
[237] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Borgholio wrote:All this talk about lack of crystal space in the new barges. Has anybody...you know...considered using common T1 strip miners? Less yield but no worry about crystals.
Just a thought... (let me try again) Sorry poster, but you are reading the dev blog wrong. CCP Ytterbium never stated, that hulk pilots would have to fit T1 strips to deal with less cargo room. (As well as most common posts, of just get more when you dock, or go pick some up) That is not what CCP Ytterbium said hulk pilots would do, to deal with a smaller cargo. All CCP Ytterbium said that hulk pilots would have to do is : rely on others to haul and resupply them with mining crystals. There it is, the solution. The one and only correct solution. Hulks can stay in an asteroid field, for as long as they want to and never worry about crystals. On the other hand, other players will have to bring the hulk pilots their crystals, when they are needed. I do wonder what players will step up to bat.
I read the blog just fine. I also read the countless posts of people whining about having limited space to store crystals. My solution? Use T1 miners that don't need crystals. You will be assimilated...bunghole! |
betoli
Ketogenic Killzone
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 10:16:00 -
[238] - Quote
I generally like the thrust of the change but....
Are we losing a *cheap* mining platform in the process? A BS tank is not going to save your bacon if you're pointed, so from the perspective of someone who mines solo in risky space the only change is that the price went up - ie the cost of entry is higher.
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
360
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 10:34:00 -
[239] - Quote
Borgholio wrote:My solution? Use T1 miners that don't need crystals. except macks with t2 strips not worrying about crystals will outmine hulks.
how is that a solution? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Borgholio
Quantum Industries TOHA Conglomerate
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 10:37:00 -
[240] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Borgholio wrote:My solution? Use T1 miners that don't need crystals. except macks with t2 strips not worrying about crystals will outmine hulks. how is that a solution?
Because you're not worrying about crystals? That's the whole point...just to not worry about crystals. If you have to worry about crystals when flying a hulk, then use T1 miners or don't fly a hulk. You will be assimilated...bunghole! |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
360
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 11:00:00 -
[241] - Quote
Borgholio wrote:Dave stark wrote:Borgholio wrote:My solution? Use T1 miners that don't need crystals. except macks with t2 strips not worrying about crystals will outmine hulks. how is that a solution? Because you're not worrying about crystals? That's the whole point...just to not worry about crystals. If you have to worry about crystals when flying a hulk, then use T1 miners or don't fly a hulk.
and a mackinaw having more yield ehp and cargo isn't an issue to you?
the problem is that just puts the... oh **** it, i can't be bothered to argue the point again. it's been done to death and ccp are intent on making mining more of a pain for the same reward. let them get on with it, i'm bored of discussing it. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Lady Flute
Kingdom Inc. Island of Misfit Toons
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 11:33:00 -
[242] - Quote
I love the new ships, BUT ...
there are a lot of newer players who have poured a lot of time into Astrogeology V and Mining Barge V - given these skills are largely going to be redundant for many newer players (who will use a covertor in a group or retreiver solo in HIgh Sec, and why wouldn't they now) - a skill reimbursement option would be very good to see.
That or tweak up what Astro IV and V actually give you.
What would I make it do? Simple - astrogeo IV +2.5% to ore cargo capacity, Astro V +5% (on top of their current +2% yield if that is staying unchanged). You know how to shatter rocks "just right" to get more to fit in there! |
Lady Flute
Kingdom Inc. Island of Misfit Toons
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 11:37:00 -
[243] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:and a mackinaw having more yield ehp and cargo isn't an issue to you? ...
Yes, Mackinaws are about to be the confirmed king of the mining world, from most people's persepctive. I would have prefered to see Hulks have a touch more yield potential.
How would I (personally) do that? I would put 4 or 5 rig slots on them (and calibration to match). You want to make your Hulk super expensive with rediculously priced T2 rigs incresaing yeild? Go for it, you have the best yeild and no-one can complain. Want to shield it up with defence rigs rigs? Sure. But you have to pay for what you add on, not get it free with the hull. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
360
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 11:42:00 -
[244] - Quote
Lady Flute wrote:Dave stark wrote:and a mackinaw having more yield ehp and cargo isn't an issue to you? ... Yes, Mackinaws are about to be the confirmed king of the mining world, from most people's persepctive. I would have prefered to see Hulks have a touch more yield potential. How would I (personally) do that? I would put 4 or 5 rig slots on them (and calibration to match). You want to make your Hulk super expensive with rediculously priced T2 rigs incresaing yeild? Go for it, you have the best yeild and no-one can complain. Want to shield it up with defence rigs rigs? Sure. But you have to pay for what you add on, not get it free with the hull.
but there are no rigs for standard ore yield, only mercoxit and ice, and that's only to bring them in to line with what we currently have. oh look, yet another sacrifice for no benefit. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Van derGraff
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 11:44:00 -
[245] - Quote
"The goal here is to allow players to choose a barge that fits their specific play style rather than lead them on a journey from the worst barge to the best one."
Only for miners though. Everyone else can aspire to a battleship or a dreadnought. And all that bollocks about fleets and orcas. Not everyone has an alt let alone one skilled at flying an orca This is definately ccp's sandbox and many are not allowed to bring their own ball. |
Zev Lothair
Dalek TacOps - Caldari Div
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 12:48:00 -
[246] - Quote
My alt is a solo miner with a hulk - the Hulk did fit my play style and now it is just going to sit useless so i will just have to pick up a Mackinaw to take longer to mine & hope I don't chewed up by rats too badly. I solo because I want to and the hours I play are random.
CCP changes the rules so we change to suit or stop playing, it's that simple.
While I think of the Hulk as the king of the miners CCP either does not or have decided to change the king so just get use to it. If it is as bad as people think then the drop in mineral production will show up in the numbers quickly and there will be changes
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
542
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 15:29:00 -
[247] - Quote
Lady Flute wrote:I love the new ships, BUT ...
there are a lot of newer players who have poured a lot of time into Astrogeology V and Mining Barge V - given these skills are largely going to be redundant for many newer players (who will use a covertor in a group or retreiver solo in HIgh Sec, and why wouldn't they now) - a skill reimbursement option would be very good to see.
That or tweak up what Astro IV and V actually give you.
What would I make it do? Simple - astrogeo IV +2.5% to ore cargo capacity, Astro V +5% (on top of their current +2% yield if that is staying unchanged). You know how to shatter rocks "just right" to get more to fit in there!
So a 5% bonus to your mining amount isn't worth the skill by itself? (as that's what astrogeology gives you. +5% per level)
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Shelly Mazmoka
Department of Health and Wellness
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 16:31:00 -
[248] - Quote
I AM one of the newer players that has spend a lot of time and isk on skillinig for a Hulk and am absolutely pissed off at the fact that what I have spent so long doing now seems futile.
Cheers for that. One less account. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
361
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 16:36:00 -
[249] - Quote
Shelly Mazmoka wrote:I AM one of the newer players that has spend a lot of time and isk on skillinig for a Hulk and am absolutely pissed off at the fact that what I have spent so long doing now seems futile.
Cheers for that. One less account.
sell hulk, buy mackinaw and have isk left over.
the issue is? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jagoff Haverford
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort Get Off My Lawn
28
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 16:45:00 -
[250] - Quote
Ruareve wrote:[[Statistics - All five]
Effective HP: 9,145 (Eve: 7,608) Tank Ability: 21.90 DPS Shield Resists - EM: 37.50%, Ex: 65.00%, Ki: 62.50%, Th: 50.00% Armor Resists - EM: 60.00%, Ex: 10.00%, Ki: 25.00%, Th: 35.00%
That's using skills at lvl 5 and omni damage. So a nerf to the EHP, a nerf to sig size, a boost to anyone wanting to gank a Hulk. The more I think about this, the more I see real parallels with the Unified Inventory debacle from a few months ago. Say you were to go back in time a few months, to March or so, and talk with a bunch of miners to find out what they thought really needed to change with mining.
I don't think this would have been the change that anybody was looking for. It never really bothered me that the Skiff and Mackinaw had specialized roles and were largely useless for regular ore mining. I just got a few of each, and used the right ship for the right job. In fact, I thought it was more than a bit rewarding when I finally got trained up to use Mecoxite crystals and climbed into a properly-equipped Skiff for the first time. In addition, the Ice and Mecoxite bonuses on the Mackinaw/Skiff provided a strong incentive to train Exhumer up to higher and higher levels, when the Hulk's increase of just 3% yield per level would have made this additional training pretty meaningless.
It also didn't really bother me that the T1 barges were tiered, although I'll admit that it was a bit painful to train Mining Barge V to get into the Covetor, and a bit strange that the Hulk became useable only a day or so after that. Still, that was a problem with the prerequisites for each ship, and not a problem with the ships themselves.
It didn't particularly worry me that there were no barges that absolutely required fleet support in order to be remotely useful. Instead, it was enough that the bonuses one got from being in a fleet, the joking around on voice comms, and the availability of haulers was more than enough to encourage joining a fleet with other miners. And I surely wouldn't have said that it was a real problem that Hulks had way too much room to carry mining crystals around.
Instead, I think most miners would have noted that the Mackinaw needed some additional powergrid and CPU (plus maybe a bit more EHP) to allow it to be tanked a bit better against 0.0 and WH rats. Not a huge increase, but enough to provide some options for adding a bit of tank to the ship. And I think we might have also noted that the Hulk's EHP hadn't really kept pace with the amount of DPS that combatant ships could deliver in one two volleys during a high sec ganking attempt. We might have also asked for a large increase in the range of survey scanners so that we could plan our operations better, and an increase in targeting range to allow for better use of combat drones against rats.
But instead of any of these things, this entire re-balancing effort is filled with changes -- just like the Unified Inventory system -- that absolutely nobody had ever asked for. Moreover, the changes that we would have asked for have not only not been made, but taken in the opposite direction. The Hulk's EHP has actually been reduced, and the Mackinaw -- while much tankier than before -- has lost the niche role as an ice miner that gave the ship it's name in the first place.
And in a final parallel with the Unified Inventory roll-out, CCP released the changes on the test server, completely ignored the feedback from those of us who actually pay attention to what goes on there, and is basically going ahead and releasing things according to their original plan, no matter what people may say on the forums.
Most miners don't pay a bit of attention to these things, and don't read the forums. Wednesday is going to come as a rude shock to them, just as the introduction of the Unified Inventory was. Thursday, at least, is going to be interesting. The drama will be delicious.
|
|
Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
170
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 16:45:00 -
[251] - Quote
A bit off-topic...
A friend of mine has a blueprint copy of a Covetor idling in her station on the off chance her built Covetor got ganked. It seems the mineral requirements are going to change with these alterations to the mining barges. So would it be a good idea to build through copies now before the update this Wednesday? |
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 16:48:00 -
[252] - Quote
Shelly Mazmoka wrote:I AM one of the newer players that has spend a lot of time and isk on skillinig for a Hulk and am absolutely pissed off at the fact that what I have spent so long doing now seems futile.
Cheers for that. One less account. Welcome to New Eden.
PS: in case noone asked yet, can i have your stuff? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
542
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 16:49:00 -
[253] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:absolutely nobody had ever asked for.
People asked for tankier barges.
They got them.
Might not have been what they were meaning, but giving people what they ask for is, generally, a bad idea. Because people don't ask for things to be balanced. They ask for things to skew everything their way.
A tankier hulk wouldn't make the game more interesting. Making all the barges useful in different situations does.
Did they get it right? That remains to be seen. But it's all better than it was.
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
542
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 16:51:00 -
[254] - Quote
Guttripper wrote:A bit off-topic...
A friend of mine has a blueprint copy of a Covetor idling in her station on the off chance her built Covetor got ganked. It seems the mineral requirements are going to change with these alterations to the mining barges. So would it be a good idea to build through copies now before the update this Wednesday?
Yes.
Start the job now.
You won't be able to refine them afterwards for more minerals (the changes don't work that way). But you'll have them cheaper than new ones.
http://pozniak.pl/wp/?p=5375 has the current details on sisi's mineral requirements for barges FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 17:13:00 -
[255] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Ruareve wrote:[[Statistics - All five]
Effective HP: 9,145 (Eve: 7,608) Tank Ability: 21.90 DPS Shield Resists - EM: 37.50%, Ex: 65.00%, Ki: 62.50%, Th: 50.00% Armor Resists - EM: 60.00%, Ex: 10.00%, Ki: 25.00%, Th: 35.00%
That's using skills at lvl 5 and omni damage. So a nerf to the EHP, a nerf to sig size, a boost to anyone wanting to gank a Hulk. The more I think about this, the more I see real parallels with the Unified Inventory debacle from a few months ago. Say you were to go back in time a few months, to March or so, and talk with a bunch of miners to find out what they thought really needed to change with mining. I don't think this would have been the change that anybody was looking for. It never really bothered me that the Skiff and Mackinaw had specialized roles and were largely useless for regular ore mining. I just got a few of each, and used the right ship for the right job. In fact, I thought it was more than a bit rewarding when I finally got trained up to use Mecoxite crystals and climbed into a properly-equipped Skiff for the first time. In addition, the Ice and Mecoxite bonuses on the Mackinaw/Skiff provided a strong incentive to train Exhumer up to higher and higher levels, when the Hulk's increase of just 3% yield per level would have made this additional training pretty meaningless. It also didn't really bother me that the T1 barges were tiered, although I'll admit that it was a bit painful to train Mining Barge V to get into the Covetor, and a bit strange that the Hulk became useable only a day or so after that. Still, that was a problem with the prerequisites for each ship, and not a problem with the ships themselves. It didn't particularly worry me that there were no barges that absolutely required fleet support in order to be remotely useful. Instead, the bonuses one got from being in a fleet, the joking around on voice comms, and the availability of haulers was more than enough to encourage joining a fleet with other miners. And I surely wouldn't have said that it was a real problem that Hulks had way too much room to carry mining crystals around. Instead, I think most miners would have noted that the Mackinaw needed some additional powergrid and CPU (plus maybe a bit more EHP) to allow it to be tanked a bit better against 0.0 and WH rats. Not a huge increase, but enough to provide some options for adding a bit of tank to the ship. And I think we might have also noted that the Hulk's EHP hadn't really kept pace with the amount of DPS that combatant ships could deliver in one two volleys during a high sec ganking attempt. We might have also asked for a large increase in the range of survey scanners so that we could plan our operations better, and an increase in targeting range to allow for better use of combat drones against rats. But instead of any of these things, this entire re-balancing effort is filled with changes -- just like the Unified Inventory system -- that absolutely nobody had ever asked for. Moreover, the changes that we would have asked for have not only not been made, but taken in the opposite direction. The Hulk's EHP has actually been reduced, and the Mackinaw -- while much tankier than before -- has lost the niche role as an ice miner that gave the ship it's name in the first place. And in a final parallel with the Unified Inventory roll-out, CCP released the changes on the test server, completely ignored the feedback from those of us who actually pay attention to what goes on there, and is basically going ahead and releasing things according to their original plan, no matter what people may say on the forums. Most miners don't pay a bit of attention to these things, and don't read the forums. Wednesday is going to come as a rude shock to them, just as the introduction of the Unified Inventory was. Thursday, at least, is going to be interesting. The drama will be delicious.
Some of us miners do read the forum ... I argued for sticking to the roles of exhumer (mercoxit / ice / ore miner) but make them available to mining barges, but CCP had their mind set into stone.
Now, let's try to make the best out of it. I didn't have a look at the EHP, but others did and the hulk shouldn't loose any EHP!
But that's not all ...
- Ice Harvester II still has the wrong fitting requirements. Those should be changed to the fitting requirements (powergrid and CPU) of T2 strip miners. This way you'll be able to just swap out mining gear without having to care about the non-mining gear.
- Rigs ... the ice / mercoxit rigs have calibration cost of 250 ... so you can either have a good ice miner or a good mercoxit miner. I don't like that I would prefer costs of 200 but at most one rig of a kind, so that you can use a single hulk for both instead of a hulk for ice and one for mercoxit ... yes, before you had to use 3 different ships for that but at that time the role was about what you mine ... now the role is how you mine (fleet / solo / tanky), so you should be able to fit one of each. You could instead introduce a single rig with cost of 200, so that a pair of those rigs would grant that bonus to both ice and mercoxit mining |
Kaycerra
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 20:16:00 -
[256] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:I know this is pointless, but let me make one last attempt.
We are being told that Hulks and Covetors are being limited to 5 sets of crystals because it will "force pilots to make some decisions" before undocking. In other threads, some of you have also claimed that this limitation will force fleets to be come up with a plan about who will be mining what.
The problem here is that this change will not place any such burden on most miners. Instead, it will only affect the subset of miners who operate in SOV and wormhole space.
Miner B lives in SOV null sec space, in an alliance with a number of other corps. Most of his mining takes place in gravitational sites, and the miners in his alliance have worked hard to upgrade their main mining system to both reach and maintain the desired industry level. They have a large asteroid cluster spawned in the system at all times, and it contains 12 different ore types. To be able to mine in these belts (plus the regular belts that appear in his system), he has had to train 4 times longer than Miner A, since he needs to mine all 16 different ore types in the game.
When Miner B gets home from work and wants to go mining, other alliance members have already been in the belt ahead of him. There's no way of knowing what kinds of ores are still in the belt, how many units are remaining, or where those asteroids are located in relation to one another. One of the bigger mining corps in his alliance is made up of primarily Russian speakers, and communication is difficult. In any event, it's already late in Russia and most of them have gone to bed. Another group of miners comes from the German corp. They are still in the belt, but language difficulties make it hard to have a conversation about ore types. So Miner B makes some random guesses about which ore types he might find when he lands in the belt, hoping for Arkonor, Bistot, Crokite, Hemorphite, and Hedbergite. He loads in 3 of those crystals apiece, and warps to the corp bookmark for the current large grave site.
When he lands, he realizes that his guesses were awful. All of the Arkonor is gone. The Germans have 3 Hulks hitting the last remaining Bistot rock with 3 lasers apiece. There are still 2 Crokite asteroids left, but they are far away from each other. and neither one is currently in range. He can't even scan them to see how much is left in them. There is one Hemorphite rock just 15 km away, but his scanner shows that it has only 520 units left in it. All of the other Hemorphite is too far away to either mine or examine with his survey scanner. His only lucky guess was Hedbergite. There is one untouched Hedgbergite rock within range. It could keep him mining for an hour or more, but not if he nails it with all 3 lasers at the same time. But what choice does he have? The only other rocks within range are 2 nicely-sized Kernites (that he doesn't have crystals for) and a Spodumain that nobody wants to bother with.
So he slowly turns his Hulk around, spends the painfully long aligning time writing down a list of the closest asteroids, makes a few bookmarks to some asteroids that are too far away to hit with his scanner (hoping that there is still a decent amount left in them) and warps back to the station. There he reloads with a different set of crystals, and heads back out to one of his new bookmarks. When he gets there, though, he finds that the Crokite that he warped in on is largely exhausted, and that there really are no other rocks in range.
He docks, shuts down Eve, and goes to play World of Tanks.
This Hulk configuration will only have its stated effect on Miner B. Miner A will get max yield without any need to make choices. Miner B -- who has already paid a price in having to train all those different ore specialization skills and working with less efficient refineries -- is essentially forced to choose a less efficient ship.
Nothing I say here will change anything. But I thought I would make one last attempt to explain why those of us who live in these asteroid cluster sites really do need to carry more than just 13 crystals into the belts.
Wrong.
Miner B logs in. He has communication difficulties with his russian/german alliance, because he is a carebear, and joined a renter alliance, full of other bears, that just want to make isk all the time, and his easiest way in was into a russian/german alliance. Because he knows that they are already jewing up all the good rocks, and it is unlikely that he will find a full spread of what he wants, miner B hops into an interceptor that is fitted with an MWD, and a survey scanner. He warps to the belt, makes note of what types of roids are there, and makes a couple quick bookmarks, survey scanning roids to check their composition. His 5 minutes in an interceptor sets him up for the few hours of mining he wants to do. With his list, and bookmarks, avoiding the roids other people are already busy eating, and avoiding the ones with very little ore in them, he warps back to the station, hops into his hulk, and loads the appropriate mining crystals into his cargo hold. He then happily mines, not really caring that his cargo hold has shrunk. He does not come on the forums and cry, he does not quit to play world of tanks, he mines, because he had half a brain, and the change didn't affect more than 5 minutes of his time. |
Kris Cringle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 21:47:00 -
[257] - Quote
I certainly Agree that there are benefits to these changes; as annoying as some of them may be - Hulk feels practically useless momentarily, Especially if the Hulks numbers require an Orca like this thread seems to scream... Speaking of Orca's...
My question is; If Hulks are so dependent on the Orca for mining now, Why is it that the Orca's ore bay remains untouched - or is it just unmentioned? If it's supposed to be supporting multiple of the highest yield miners in the game, why does it make sense for it to hold less than double the capacity of a single ship which is supposed to mine less? To me, it seems as plausible as a stealth bomber blowing up a belt and trying to fit the resulting dust in it's hold. . .
Yes I realize the Orca has multiple holds; I just thought that this was the specific purpose for the Ore Hold... |
von slider
Up2-NoGood Intrepid Crossing
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 22:20:00 -
[258] - Quote
no chance on ccp asking us..the people that pay them..if we want miners screwed over, the cater to the new players and always screw the guys that made the effort to learn the game. Thanks for turning the hulks that we "earned" into wasted is. If its not broken assholes dont fix it ( when will ccp learn). |
von slider
Up2-NoGood Intrepid Crossing
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 22:21:00 -
[259] - Quote
von slider wrote:no chance on ccp asking us..the people that pay them..if we want miners screwed over, the cater to the new players and always screw the guys that made the effort to learn the game. Thanks for turning the hulks that we "earned" into wasted is. If its not broken assholes dont fix it ( when will ccp learn). ya my typing sucks..im kinda pissed o/
|
Seismic Stan
246
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 22:22:00 -
[260] - Quote
Will the new frigate have skill requirements that fall outside the current "not available on trial accounts" restriction that all other ORE vessels have?
Presently, as no ORE ship skills can be trained on trial accounts, this would suggest there would be no way for future miners to try out mining without subscribing.
Freebooted - Tech4 News - Incarna: The Text Adventure - Guild Launch EVE Correspondent |
|
Zanmaru
Gallente Defence Force
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 22:52:00 -
[261] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:I know this is pointless, but let me make one last attempt.
We are being told that Hulks and Covetors are being limited to 5 sets of crystals because it will "force pilots to make some decisions" before undocking. In other threads, some of you have also claimed that this limitation will force fleets to be come up with a plan about who will be mining what.
The problem here is that this change will not place any such burden on most miners. Instead, it will only affect the subset of miners who operate in SOV and wormhole space.
Let's take Miner A, who lives in Amarrian Empire space. Gravitational sites rarely spawn in his systems, and he really doesn't bother looking for them. Instead, his mining is limited to just the four ores that appear in Amarrian high sec -- Veldspar, Scordite, Pyroxeres, and Kernite. He hasn't even bothered to train the ore specialization skills for any of the other ores, because he never even sees them. When he gets home from work and goes mining, he just jumps in his Hulk. It's strip miners are already loaded with 3 Veldspar crystals (from the last op). His cargo bay already contains 3 Scordite, 3 Pyroxeres, and 3 Kernite crystals (taking up 225 cubic meters), plus one spare crystal for each of the 4 ore types in his system. No forethought, no planning, and no communication with other miners is needed. His Hulk is always ready to go.
Miner B lives in SOV null sec space, in an alliance with a number of other corps. Most of his mining takes place in gravitational sites, and the miners in his alliance have worked hard to upgrade their main mining system to both reach and maintain the desired industry level. They have a large asteroid cluster spawned in the system at all times, and it contains 12 different ore types. To be able to mine in these belts (plus the regular belts that appear in his system), he has had to train 4 times longer than Miner A, since he needs to mine all 16 different ore types in the game.
When Miner B gets home from work and wants to go mining, other alliance members have already been in the belt ahead of him. There's no way of knowing what kinds of ores are still in the belt, how many units are remaining, or where those asteroids are located in relation to one another. One of the bigger mining corps in his alliance is made up of primarily Russian speakers, and communication is difficult. In any event, it's already late in Russia and most of them have gone to bed. Another group of miners comes from the German corp. They are still in the belt, but language difficulties make it hard to have a conversation about ore types. So Miner B makes some random guesses about which ore types he might find when he lands in the belt, hoping for Arkonor, Bistot, Crokite, Hemorphite, and Hedbergite. He loads in 3 of those crystals apiece, and warps to the corp bookmark for the current large grave site.
When he lands, he realizes that his guesses were awful. All of the Arkonor is gone. The Germans have 3 Hulks hitting the last remaining Bistot rock with 3 lasers apiece. There are still 2 Crokite asteroids left, but they are far away from each other. and neither one is currently in range. He can't even scan them to see how much is left in them. There is one Hemorphite rock just 15 km away, but his scanner shows that it has only 520 units left in it. All of the other Hemorphite is too far away to either mine or examine with his survey scanner. His only lucky guess was Hedbergite. There is one untouched Hedgbergite rock within range. It could keep him mining for an hour or more, but not if he nails it with all 3 lasers at the same time. But what choice does he have? The only other rocks within range are 2 nicely-sized Kernites (that he doesn't have crystals for) and a Spodumain that nobody wants to bother with.
So he slowly turns his Hulk around, spends the painfully long aligning time writing down a list of the closest asteroids, makes a few bookmarks to some asteroids that are too far away to hit with his scanner (hoping that there is still a decent amount left in them) and warps back to the station. There he reloads with a different set of crystals, and heads back out to one of his new bookmarks. When he gets there, though, he finds that the Crokite that he warped in on is largely exhausted, and that there really are no other rocks in range.
He docks, shuts down Eve, and goes to play World of Tanks.
This Hulk configuration will only have its stated effect on Miner B. Miner A will get max yield without any need to make choices. Miner B -- who has already paid a price in having to train all those different ore specialization skills and working with less efficient refineries -- is essentially forced to choose a less efficient ship.
Nothing I say here will change anything. But I thought I would make one last attempt to explain why those of us who live in these asteroid cluster sites really do need to carry more than just 13 crystals into the belts.
The delicious tears of those unused to change in a game that's defined by change. That scenario is chock full of poor planning and personal issues, as the others mentioned.
I just have to ask though: If high sec miners have it so good, why not just set up a jump clone and do your mining there? |
George K'ntara
We Build Stuff Inc.
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 01:24:00 -
[262] - Quote
Though in general I am very happy with the changes I do wish this blog had come out before everything was decided.
Also this blog is a little confusing since many of the stats in the blog are not what was on Sisi just yesterday. Didn't get a chance to check today.
Things that I wish were different.
I would rather have the options someone earlier in this thread posted.
Have the Procurer/Skiff not have a mining bonus besides the role bonus, and have a sig radius reduction bonus instead.
Have the Retriever/Mackinaw lose a mining bonus and get a mining range bonus instead. (Ore hold should hold about 30 minutes worth of mining)
Have the Covetor/Hulk have enough cargo bay to fit at least half or more of all types of mining crystals and 25m3 more for swapping. There are enough people I believe making valid points in this thread for the cargo hold to get a boost. The Ore hold is fine just holding one cycle's worth of max mining.
I also feel like all the T2 ones should have the 7.5% bonus to shields. Or just give us the Minmatar T2 shield resists (j/k) Anyway though I like the idea of roles I do think T2 should ships should retain a significant boost in defense to offset the risk of flying them.
I agree with multiple people in this thread that a module would have been preferable to have modules instead of rigs to give you the ice/Mercoxit mining bonus. Because as it stands if I want to be do everything with the mining ships I need at least 9 ships instead of just 3.
Lastly, I would have wished that instead of all these built in stats that we had been given the slots and fittings to find our own solutions. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
278
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 01:43:00 -
[263] - Quote
George K'ntara wrote:Though in general I am very happy with the changes I do wish this blog had come out before everything was decided. CCP Ytterbium announced these changes back in mid-June.
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890
There is also a 47 page feeback thread, in which several of the issues raised in this thread were brought up previously (albeit seemingly ignored, for the most part).
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=121281 |
Borgholio
Quantum Industries TOHA Conglomerate
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 02:25:00 -
[264] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Borgholio wrote:Dave stark wrote:Borgholio wrote:My solution? Use T1 miners that don't need crystals. except macks with t2 strips not worrying about crystals will outmine hulks. how is that a solution? Because you're not worrying about crystals? That's the whole point...just to not worry about crystals. If you have to worry about crystals when flying a hulk, then use T1 miners or don't fly a hulk. and a mackinaw having more yield ehp and cargo isn't an issue to you? the problem is that just puts the... oh **** it, i can't be bothered to argue the point again. it's been done to death and ccp are intent on making mining more of a pain for the same reward. let them get on with it, i'm bored of discussing it.
It's supposed to have more ehp and cargo. Yield, I can agree that the Hulk needs to be better. But again, I'm only arguing the part about the crystals. Ship balance is another topic entirely. You will be assimilated...bunghole! |
SkullKn0cker
Dark Neutron Star HELM Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 02:56:00 -
[265] - Quote
Overall the changes look ok. However I don't understand the 1 cycle to fill up the hulk.. That really makes no since to me. I do understand the idea it's going more the fleet miner now, tbh it was already basically but was also good for solo mining. I don't believe letting the hulk have 2 or 3 cycles in it's hold would be bad. One cylcle is just a little insane. Also are the acual size of the barges/exhumers changing? Last time I looked at my retriver next to a hulk it is tiny compared to that beast. |
Challu
Wishful Desires Inc. Armada Assail
51
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 04:02:00 -
[266] - Quote
SkullKn0cker wrote:Overall the changes look ok. However I don't understand the 1 cycle to fill up the hulk.. That really makes no since to me. I do understand the idea it's going more the fleet miner now, tbh it was already basically but was also good for solo mining. I don't believe letting the hulk have 2 or 3 cycles in it's hold would be bad. One cylcle is just a little insane. Also are the acual size of the barges/exhumers changing? Last time I looked at my retriver next to a hulk it is tiny compared to that beast.
No afk mining for you!
Time to switch to the mack after 1.2. |
lucy numbers
unicorn halflife spacecruises LLC
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 05:18:00 -
[267] - Quote
Kaycerra wrote: Because he knows that they are already jewing up all the good rocks, and it is unlikely that he will find a full spread of what he wants, miner B hops into an interceptor that is fitted with an MWD, and a survey scanner.
easy does it, racist... |
Kaycerra
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 06:13:00 -
[268] - Quote
lucy numbers wrote:Kaycerra wrote: Because he knows that they are already jewing up all the good rocks, and it is unlikely that he will find a full spread of what he wants, miner B hops into an interceptor that is fitted with an MWD, and a survey scanner. easy does it, racist...
Interceptors aren't a race, they are a class of ships. |
Kristen Andelare
Abacus Industries Group Aerodyne Collective
16
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 08:16:00 -
[269] - Quote
For the one or two people who keep requesting a drop in the calibration of the new specialty rigs to 200, so they can fit two:
One one rig of this type can be fitted to a single ship (that means, you're not allowed to fit a Ice and Mercoxit rig to the same ship). That was on the rig description on Sisi when they FIRST released them, when the calibration was only 50. They were never intended to be fit in pairs. Raising the calibration to 250 is INTENDED, to prevent that exact thing. I hope that is now clear. That's why they're going to ignore your pleas.
To the guy who sold his Skiffs and Mackinaws, sucks to be you man, That was a fool move if ever there was a fool move. On other blogs, people that make them are selling them like hotcakes, as the demand will be high.
To the guy who said that he hardly ever sees Mackinaws in Ice Belts anymore? Are you actually looking? Because I mine in Ice belts at least a few times a week, and if there's 50 ships in the belt, 4 will be Orcas, and 40 will be Macks, and 6 will be either Hulks or the occasional retriever piloted by a noob miner. Post patch it won't be different, because MOST ice miners in highsec operate without orca support, not with it (even I do that more often than not, and I have orca pilots). The retriever will allow them to mine for almost an hour before having to dock. Put a show on netflix on the other screen, keep an eye on your ship, you're golden. The yield may be slightly less than a hulk, but it is hassle free.
For those of you whining about "wasting your skilling" for a Hulk, geez, go look again. Your skills are NOT wasted. Your Exhumer V Hulk (Mack or Skiff too) out-mines and Exhumer IV one.
For those that think, oh, just fly a Covetor or Retriever and mine almsot as much as a Hulk, why waste my ISK? Well, if you want a TANK at all, you'll get an exhumer. Not only do they mine faster, better, but they ALL have more mid slots than the piddling ONE that Retrievers and Covetors get. One mid = survey scanner, NO tank. And they get 5% shield resistance bonuses per level. Nothing of that sort on the T1s. A Covetor can barely survive belt rats in Amarr space, where they shoot at the EM hole (base 0%).
And yeah, buried in the CSM notes was a profound statement that CCP (and many on the CSM) would like to get rid of off-grid boosting (mostly to make CCP fix the Fleet Command Ships so people will fight in them, and not allow off-grid T3 boosters). What was NOT mentioned was Rorqual and ORca off-grid boosts at all. So I imagine that when someone points out that an across-the-board nerf of off-grid boosting would get most of the Rorquals killed within a few months, CCP will either make an exception, or re-thin it more carefully.
Oh, one last thought. Complaining about not being able to fit ONE ship for best Ice/Ore mining, when you have to have a Mack and Hulk for that today makes you look a little silly, don't you think?
So many misconceptions. Can't wait for patch day. Hurrrrrrr!!!! |
Kristen Andelare
Abacus Industries Group Aerodyne Collective
16
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 08:21:00 -
[270] - Quote
Zev Lothair wrote:My alt is a solo miner with a hulk - the Hulk did fit my play style and now it is just going to sit useless so i will just have to pick up a Mackinaw to take longer to mine & hope I don't chewed up by rats too badly. I solo because I want to and the hours I play are random.
CCP changes the rules so we change to suit or stop playing, it's that simple.
While I think of the Hulk as the king of the miners CCP either does not or have decided to change the king so just get use to it. If it is as bad as people think then the drop in mineral production will show up in the numbers quickly and there will be changes
The Mack a much better tank than the Hulk ever did. You'll be safer than ever from those rats you seem to fear. 30-40k EHP with skills a decent fitting, since you no longer will be fitting cargo rigs and expanders on it, you've got at least one rig slot to help the tank, plus an extra low you didn't have before. You'll survive the experience. |
|
Freibuis
Legion of Lost Souls The Lego Cartel
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 11:25:00 -
[271] - Quote
ok I have been doing some theory craft on SIS on the last day.
--start rant-- and here are my thoughts
Hulks and macks are currently too expensive for the amount of ore mined compared to the difference of ore mined with the other hulls. This is because (from the stats that I have been getting on my maxed chars) the ore gap is now very narrow compared pre-patch. I am not saying this is a bad thing. I am just saying I dont see the point of using Hulks/Mac compared to the relatively cheap replacement cost of the other hulls.
on the Ice side. Macs probably be the Botters dream... 30 Mins with out needing to be unload/docked. heck I am not complaining. maybe my R.S.I. will heal, but I do think this is a little to long. may be 20mins tops (based on perfect high sec stats of 67 blocks and 35 Block capacity
Also due to the changes in ore capicity and the increase in ore amount per cycle for the retriever having 6.25 cycles and 4398.04 m3 per cycle real world high sec max stats. means that AFK mining is now possible and heck @ the current prices of trit you could replace this cheap ship in about 2 hours compared to a hulk which is a 30+ hours. Granted Hulk makes more, but compared to the prepatch the retreiver earners more then before and the hulk stays the around the same. we should see an uptick in retriever cost and a hulks to retract a little in value.
it looks like the price devaluation is happening now with Hulks having 2 Dev blogs (tech and mining change) with in a week the price has dropped already. you can overlay both dev blogs over the prices history and see perfect market reaction.
interesting time indeed to be part of the eve online experience.
--end rant-- |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
373
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 11:28:00 -
[272] - Quote
WHAT ABOUT A GAS MINING SHIP? |
Freibuis
Legion of Lost Souls The Lego Cartel
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 11:32:00 -
[273] - Quote
Kristen Andelare wrote:For the one or two people who keep requesting a drop in the calibration of the new specialty rigs to 200, so they can fit two:
One one rig of this type can be fitted to a single ship (that means, you're not allowed to fit a Ice and Mercoxit rig to the same ship). That was on the rig description on Sisi when they FIRST released them, when the calibration was only 50. They were never intended to be fit in pairs. Raising the calibration to 250 is INTENDED, to prevent that exact thing. I hope that is now clear. That's why they're going to ignore your pleas.
I could not agree more.
what about a compromise. How about droping it to 200 and negating a 2nd one if used, tgat way you could multi Role the mining vessel. 1xMercoxit rig and 1 x ice rig..
1 ship that could fit 2 role if needed.
|
Freibuis
Legion of Lost Souls The Lego Cartel
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 11:35:00 -
[274] - Quote
Freibuis wrote:ok I have been doing some theory craft on SIS on the last day.
--start rant-- and here are my thoughts
Hulks and macks are currently too expensive for the amount of ore mined compared to the difference of ore mined with the other hulls. This is because (from the stats that I have been getting on my maxed chars) the ore gap is now very narrow compared pre-patch. I am not saying this is a bad thing. I am just saying I dont see the point of using Hulks/Mac compared to the relatively cheap replacement cost of the other hulls.
on the Ice side. Macs probably be the Botters dream... 30 Mins with out needing to be unload/docked. heck I am not complaining. maybe my R.S.I. will heal, but I do think this is a little to long. may be 20mins tops (based on perfect high sec stats of 67 blocks and 35 Block capacity
Also due to the changes in ore capicity and the increase in ore amount per cycle for the retriever having 6.25 cycles and 4398.04 m3 per cycle real world high sec max stats. means that AFK mining is now possible and heck @ the current prices of trit you could replace this cheap ship in about 2 hours compared to a hulk which is a 30+ hours. Granted Hulk makes more, but compared to the prepatch the retreiver earners more then before and the hulk stays the around the same. we should see an uptick in retriever cost and a hulks to retract a little in value.
it looks like the price devaluation is happening now with Hulks having 2 Dev blogs (tech and mining change) with in a week the price has dropped already. you can overlay both dev blogs over the prices history and see perfect market reaction.
interesting time indeed to be part of the eve online experience.
--end rant--
I forgot to mention retriever can fit about 9 cycles with cargo rigs. thats about 30mins afk as well
|
Zev Lothair
Dalek TacOps - Caldari Div
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 12:23:00 -
[275] - Quote
Kristen Andelare wrote:Zev Lothair wrote:My alt is a solo miner with a hulk - the Hulk did fit my play style and now it is just going to sit useless so i will just have to pick up a Mackinaw to take longer to mine & hope I don't chewed up by rats too badly. I solo because I want to and the hours I play are random.
CCP changes the rules so we change to suit or stop playing, it's that simple.
While I think of the Hulk as the king of the miners CCP either does not or have decided to change the king so just get use to it. If it is as bad as people think then the drop in mineral production will show up in the numbers quickly and there will be changes
The Mack a much better tank than the Hulk ever did. You'll be safer than ever from those rats you seem to fear. 30-40k EHP with skills a decent fitting, since you no longer will be fitting cargo rigs and expanders on it, you've got at least one rig slot to help the tank, plus an extra low you didn't have before. You'll survive the experience.
|
Gainard
Eurotech Industries
69
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 13:05:00 -
[276] - Quote
So the Hulk outmines the Mack in ICE - clever move. And Hulk cargo hold nerved to near nil. Can i get a refund for the cargohold rigs? I have been training like an idiot to become a perfect miner, after this "update" I become a perfect idiot. Thanks. For UI look up FUBAR on Google. For EVE see SNAFU. url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_slang_terms |
Freibuis
Legion of Lost Souls The Lego Cartel
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 13:18:00 -
[277] - Quote
Gainard wrote:So the Hulk outmines the Mack in ICE - clever move. And Hulk cargo hold nerved to near nil. Can i get a refund for the cargohold rigs? I have been training like an idiot to become a perfect miner, after this "update" I become a perfect idiot. Thanks.
I wouldnt say wasted. This means now you can play you own style instead of being funneled down 1 choice of hulk.. or what was the other choice again.. oh yeah thats right.. a hulk,
example: you want to play the AFK game.. you can.. if you want to MAX RSI Game. there is now something in it for you to.
Basically the hulk really hasnt changed. excecpt for ice. But will mean that it will need at least 2 chars mininium to support it (mining logistics & mining hauling). so basically this is for at least a fleet of a minimum 4 hulks. cargo space hasnt changed that much for it. you can put cargo rigs on it. every one keeps saying its nerfed.. hmm doesnt look that nerfed. if you are putting it beside another new mining hull then I understand that.
|
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
207
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 13:32:00 -
[278] - Quote
I seriously dont get all the whining, I for one am very happy and cant wait to hit the belts again after a long break from mining! |
Gainard
Eurotech Industries
69
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 13:39:00 -
[279] - Quote
Well one could say the roles of Hulk and Mack have been reversed. In case of Hulk mining ice even the efficiency is improved. And The mack with 35k orehold is now ideal for solo mining - ice or ore though ore with reduced efficieny.
Even the if effective ore volume is not that much different there is a catch: My hulk has a cargohold of 11520m^3, good for almost two cycles. After the mining I can fit two expanders making for almost 19k to carry my crystals away. After the nerf it will be 8000 ore and 350 cargo (~490 with the 2 T2 cargohold optimizers - if they dont get blown away with the calibration nerf ). That means when solo mining and refining in system I still have to get a hauler to carry the refined crystals away as they wont go into the ore hold - even if I use the Mack. In the end it makes solo mining that much less effective. For UI look up FUBAR on Google. For EVE see SNAFU. url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_slang_terms |
Gainard
Eurotech Industries
69
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 13:50:00 -
[280] - Quote
Forgot one thing: With the unified inventory the two holds will mean even more fiddeling with windows I hope they put the orehold in the right click menu! For UI look up FUBAR on Google. For EVE see SNAFU. url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_slang_terms |
|
denbot
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 13:58:00 -
[281] - Quote
CCP. I just wanted to thank you for the changes you made to the barges. I look forward to using them with a smile knowing I will be safer in space. Keep up the good work. Just wondering ? Is the Ore mining frigate coming on August 8th ? I would love to see more Ore ships rise up in the future to. Happy Miner denbot |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
64
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 15:48:00 -
[282] - Quote
SkullKn0cker wrote:However I don't understand the 1 cycle to fill up the hulk.. That really makes no since to me. I do understand the idea it's going more the fleet miner now, tbh it was already basically but was also good for solo mining. I don't believe letting the hulk have 2 or 3 cycles in it's hold would be bad. Those of us who have been carrying a nearly full-spread of crystals have been working with one-cycle holds for quite some time. It's not that painful. Not being able to carry a full spread, though... *THAT* is painful. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
365
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 15:49:00 -
[283] - Quote
Rig material lists are on Sisi now
Hulk now has the patch notes ore hold as well. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
110
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 15:52:00 -
[284] - Quote
Please compare a Noctis's HP to the Hulk and let me know if this is reasonable.
Thanks, Drox |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
365
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 15:52:00 -
[285] - Quote
denbot wrote:CCP. I just wanted to thank you for the changes you made to the barges. I look forward to using them with a smile knowing I will be safer in space. Keep up the good work. Just wondering ? Is the Ore mining frigate coming on August 8th ? I would love to see more Ore ships rise up in the future to. Happy Miner denbot No |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
365
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 15:57:00 -
[286] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Please compare a Noctis's HP to the Hulk and let me know if this is reasonable.
Thanks, Drox With my skills noc is 8520 and the hulk is 9095. That is with nothing fitted. For what they are suppost to do and where they are suppost to go. Thats fine. When you take noctis thru WH for looting you take the risk. That is what EVE is. Same with hulks plan and win. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
110
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 16:50:00 -
[287] - Quote
The new Hulk's HP should not be worse than the old Hulk's HP. One of the redesign changes was to make them less like tissue paper. If the new EHP is worse, then don't do it and just change the cargo bays and leave everything else alone.
I was expecting something where the Skiff is baseline HP, Mackinaw is 75% Skiff HP, and Hulk is 50% Skiff HP. These are balanced by Skiff has Worst Yield and middle cargo. Mack has middle yield and best cargo. Hulk has best yield and worst cargo. From my pick 2 good abilities concept, all three have "equal" yields, but to differentiate, they should be at 90%, 95%, and 100%.
Hulk: 100% Yield (1739139 Veld/Hr) 90-100% ? 75% ? 50% HP (14545.5) 25% Cargo (8750)
Mackinaw: 100% Cargo (35000) 95% Yield (1652182 Veld/Hr) 75% HP (21818.25) 50% ? 25% ?
Skiff: 100% HP (29091) 90% Yield (1565225 Veld/Hr) 75% Cargo (26250) 50% Extra Speed (200 m/s base) 25% ?
See, Game Design is easy! Drox |
Kristen Andelare
Abacus Industries Group Aerodyne Collective
17
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 18:27:00 -
[288] - Quote
For those looking for the details from the materials tab on the new rigs, they're on Sisi now.
Unresearched (10% waste)
Medium Ice Harvester Cycle Time Rig: Conductive Polymer 13 Fried Interface Circuit 18 Smashed Trigger Unit 9 Tripped Power Circuit 22
Medium Mercoxit Mining Rig: Conductive Polymer 13 Defective Current Pump 8 Fried Interface Circuit 18 Tripped Power Circuit 22
4 ingredients per rig, that's new. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
64
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 18:51:00 -
[289] - Quote
Y'know... we've had only one dev response to this whole thread... Apart from forum warriors like CCP Sreegs, it makes me wonder how many actually read and/or act upon the comments we make. Half the time, it seems like they don't even bother paying attention to the CSM.
/bittervet |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
278
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 20:13:00 -
[290] - Quote
Atum wrote:Y'know... we've had only one dev response to this whole thread... Don't exaggerate. There have been TWO dev responses thus far (albeit one of which was not entirely correct). lol :) |
|
Amber Solaire
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 20:42:00 -
[291] - Quote
This is a lie---> Hulk
GÇóRole is now exhumer with superior mining output
Apart from an extra 1% bonus to mining Ice, everything else is exactly the same as it is now (except the new orehold holds less than present cargohold+rigs)
All the other bonuses are EXACTLY THE SAME
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
544
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 20:47:00 -
[292] - Quote
Amber Solaire wrote:This is a lie---> Hulk
GÇóRole is now exhumer with superior mining output
Apart from an extra 1% bonus to mining Ice, everything else is exactly the same as it is now (except the new orehold holds less than present cargohold+rigs)
All the other bonuses are EXACTLY THE SAME
Still has a superior output to the other exhumers, no? FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Amber Solaire
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 20:58:00 -
[293] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:So CCP Masterplan, why do you think there should only be 13 crystals in the hulk? Is this just tailored for the high sec miners?
I know you guys must of discussed this in detail, but really how does this make a group mining fleet more interactive by adding tasks that no one in the fleet will want to do?
I like my hulks and will continue to use them, but I can't understand why we can't have a bigger selection.
I do plan out my mining activities, I even go as far as to make a list of what I am going to hit so I can sort out what to bring with my little fleet of 3 hulks, but even the best laid plans go to hell when unknown variables come into play. IE: used crystals/other people hitting the same target rocks and some rocks already partially depleted, just to name a few.
When I get home from work and want to do something, I like to get down to it. Not have to interrupt things 20 minutes after I get settled in. This already happens enough when neuts enter the system you are mining in, why should there be more things to go wrong?
It appears the Devs never took into account the size of tech2 mining crystals (50m3)
Probably never heard of them
7 spare t2 crystals is definitely not enough
|
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
110
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 21:02:00 -
[294] - Quote
Amber Solaire wrote:It appears the Devs never took into account the size of tech2 mining crystals (50m3) Probably never heard of them 7 spare t2 crystals is definitely not enough
The Beta Shrink Ray module hit them for a 50% size reduction. |
Alystin Wyndyl
Night's Shadows TriMark Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 21:28:00 -
[295] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Amber Solaire wrote:It appears the Devs never took into account the size of tech2 mining crystals (50m3) Probably never heard of them 7 spare t2 crystals is definitely not enough The Beta Shrink Ray module hit them for a 50% size reduction.
We need the Beta Ray Shrink module treatment on the T1 Ice Harvesters and T1 Strip Miners too. They are too big now. Never understood why they were so huge to begin with, unless as a factor of how large the crystal is (since theirs is "built in"). But if you shrunk the T2 Crystals and T1 crystals, just aim that thing over at those two T1 modules and get them into a proper scope as well. Thank You. |
nardaq
Orion Expeditions
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 22:12:00 -
[296] - Quote
Kristen Andelare wrote:For those looking for the details from the materials tab on the new rigs, they're on Sisi now.
Unresearched (10% waste)
Medium Ice Harvester Cycle Time Rig: Conductive Polymer 13 Fried Interface Circuit 18 Smashed Trigger Unit 9 Tripped Power Circuit 22
Medium Mercoxit Mining Rig: Conductive Polymer 13 Defective Current Pump 8 Fried Interface Circuit 18 Tripped Power Circuit 22
4 ingredients per rig, that's new. calibration cost 250 0f 400, so u can only use one and regular T1)100) or T2(150) rig and of course no mining laser rig |
Solomon Cross
CTEC LLC
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 22:51:00 -
[297] - Quote
Alystin Wyndyl wrote:Droxlyn wrote:Amber Solaire wrote:It appears the Devs never took into account the size of tech2 mining crystals (50m3) Probably never heard of them 7 spare t2 crystals is definitely not enough The Beta Shrink Ray module hit them for a 50% size reduction. We need the Beta Ray Shrink module treatment on the T1 Ice Harvesters and T1 Strip Miners too. They are too big now. Never understood why they were so huge to begin with, unless as a factor of how large the crystal is (since theirs is "built in"). But if you shrunk the T2 Crystals and T1 crystals, just aim that thing over at those two T1 modules and get them into a proper scope as well. Thank You.
The size of the Ice Harvester I and Strip Miner I are to make them less desirable for mineral compression. |
Cpt Bogus
Whimsical Mining Refining and Exploration
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 01:56:00 -
[298] - Quote
I generally like what I'm seeing here, especially with regards to yield. I'm not a miner myself but I can't help but wonder whether the jacked-up mineral prices have at least some to do with there being a lot of junior, non-macro miners who can't afford or are unable to fly a 300 million isk highly gankable ship and instead have to go with something with about half the effective yield.
Better ice mining bonuses on the Mackinaw might be good, though. I'm tempted to say an across-the-board increase in yield is in order but perhaps the introduction of new BCs and destroyers, and impending cruiser rebalance, will change the paradigm that you need 100+ million worth of ship to do interesting stuff. |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
634
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 02:44:00 -
[299] - Quote
So, I Kinda like all of this. so will exhumers and covetors no longer need astrology 5? the most annoying skill in the universe? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
548
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 02:56:00 -
[300] - Quote
Herping yourDerp wrote:So, I Kinda like all of this. so will exhumers and covetors no longer need astrology 5? the most annoying skill in the universe?
Exhumers (the skill) needs Astrogeology 5
Mining Barge (the skill) needs 3 (and so do the barges themselves. Not entirely sure why, but it does)
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
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Ciar Meara
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
731
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 08:35:00 -
[301] - Quote
I'd just like to say that there isn't a single picture in this entire blog. - [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
365
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 09:15:00 -
[302] - Quote
Last build on Sisi seemed to nerf what tank the hulk and mac had. Was it intentianal or is it a bug |
trebor1982
Caldari High Prime P R I M E
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 09:51:00 -
[303] - Quote
ABSOLUTELY BARKING MAD !! The Hulk has always been the king of mining Now it becomes much less important I guess what is really going on is an attempt to reduce the number of Hulks This is going to have an effect on the 'Hulkageddon' and make more Mackinaw craft traversing the spacelanes If the Hulk is becoming less important, are they reducing it's average price?
The Hulk should always be better, because it is BIGGER Making Barges that are smaller have more space is just plain WRONG
I guess we will all be seeing more AFK mining now
|
Tainted Greek
House Of Hades Female Breast Inspectors
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 12:02:00 -
[304] - Quote
WTF! Seriously what is the reason for this stupidity?
I have no problem with some skill changes that can lead to specializing in different mining ships.
But to NERF the Hulk?
The Covetor has no tank to speak of nor can you put any decent tank on it. The Covetor should be getting a big jump in resistances! The Hulk should remain at the top of itGÇÖs class.
EVE should be and should remain a sand box!
I donGÇÖt need some developer DICTATING to me how I should play, because some body thinks that the Hulk is a GROUP mining operation vessel! Thanks for shoving your views down my throat!
There is a reason, a very real reason that most people start off in smaller craft! Its true in just about every profession.
Somebody decided that we can just turn everything you know upside down AND make it utterly unbelievable! The ProcGÇÖ/Skiff becomes the Tardis! And will blow the biggest EXHUMER away with EHP and Cargo capacity???? Changing gameplay and the need for haulersGǪ
It took me a long time to EARN my first HULK, it should be the craft that can do everything wellGǪ at about 280 Million ISK to replaceGǪ it should be resistant to ganking and griefing. IGÇÖve used mine solo more than I ever have with a group.
EVE is a SandboxGǪ leave it aloneGǪ donGÇÖt change it to suit whining newbs at the expense of common sense.
New Mining Frigate sounds cool, specialized skill path for barges or exhumers sounds fine. Your so called REBALANCING is fundamentally flawed!
|
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 12:17:00 -
[305] - Quote
wow .. what a lot of posts already .. So as has probably been said .. the hulk is dead long live the retriever...
So the hulk is supposed to be used in group mining .. so you've just lost the 4 hulks in your mining fleet to alpha strike from tornados and you can now go deal with the gankers in your pods ..
Fleets have no right of first strike against gankers in any circumstance so the hulk is now more useless after the changes than before.. so long live the retriever or if you've money to burn or want a slightly better tank, the mack.. |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
184
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 13:05:00 -
[306] - Quote
Tainted Greek wrote: EVE should be and should remain a sand box!
I don't think you know what this means |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
551
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 13:32:00 -
[307] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Tainted Greek wrote: EVE should be and should remain a sand box!
I don't think you know what this means
http://rjw57.github.com/notes/_images/montoya.jpg FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Tainted Greek
House Of Hades Female Breast Inspectors
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 13:42:00 -
[308] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Tainted Greek wrote: EVE should be and should remain a sand box!
I don't think you know what this means
Sandbox emphasizes a paradigm where, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to do as they wish creatively and with there being "no right way"[5] of playing the game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_game
I repeat:::: Your so called REBALANCING is fundamentally flawed!
Do you want the truth or do you want something beautiful?
I'd like to know what motivates your opinion...
|
MinorFreak
Ordo Ministorum
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 13:48:00 -
[309] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Atum wrote:Y'know... we've had only one dev response to this whole thread... Don't exaggerate. There have been TWO dev responses thus far (albeit one of which was not entirely correct). lol :) actually, there's been ZERO coherent responses. both of them had serious factual errors in them leading me to either attribute stupidity or malice. I'd like to say they trolled us on purpose with misinformation but that would rule out at least some stupidity on their part.
|
Tlat Ij
Hedion University Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 13:57:00 -
[310] - Quote
trebor1982 wrote:If the Hulk is becoming less important, are they reducing it's average price? Dev's don't set the price, players do.
trebor1982 wrote:The Hulk should always be better, because it is BIGGER This just in: titans are the best for everything because they are the biggest ships in the game. |
|
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
185
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 13:59:00 -
[311] - Quote
Tainted Greek wrote:Yeep wrote:Tainted Greek wrote: EVE should be and should remain a sand box!
I don't think you know what this means Sandbox emphasizes a paradigm where, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to do as they wish creatively and with there being "no right way"[5] of playing the game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_game
You're placing the singular player (you) ahead of the generic player. And that definition of sandbox is flawed. I wish I could fly around in a giant veined floppy ***** ship one-shotting titans but I can't. A sandbox game has to be balanced so that everyone can try to do as they wish (barring the interruption of other players, who are also entitled to try to do so if they wish), not so that one person can do exactly what they want all the time. |
MinorFreak
Ordo Ministorum
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 14:12:00 -
[312] - Quote
and uhm...i really shouldn't bother posting actual facts in this morass of shiite...but, it's about mining and i love mining. always have. what? pay $15 a month to pretend to be an astronaut? heck yah. I've always wanted to be a 'belter' (allusion to Cherryh)
so...hulks nerfed/changed/worse/blah? eff that. they've stayed the same. oh stop whining, FFS. old new
|
Overs
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 14:17:00 -
[313] - Quote
Though I stand to profit from investing into a **** ton of retrievers, I think these upcoming mining barge changes are terrible and should be scrapped.
Instead of a big clumsy ill-conceived change, why not introduce changes in babysteps and start with something simple like a 2.5% reduction to the MLU cpu penalty per level in mining barge. |
Immaga
Strategic Initiatives
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 14:53:00 -
[314] - Quote
Think there's a typo in the Tanking...
"Skiff and Retriever are getting hit points comparable to a battleship" should read "Skiff and Procurer" |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 15:19:00 -
[315] - Quote
MinorFreak wrote:and uhm...i really shouldn't bother posting actual facts in this morass of shiite...but, it's about mining and i love mining. always have. what? pay $15 a month to pretend to be an astronaut? heck yah. I've always wanted to be a 'belter' (allusion to Cherryh) so...hulks nerfed/changed/worse/blah? eff that. they've stayed the same. oh stop whining, FFS. oldnew LOL ... Let's gimp the T2 Miner ... Where are your T2 strips?
If you're going to gimp the best yield T2 miner by using T1 strips - then you must start using T1 Weapons on all those T2 combat ships as well.
Can't wait for all the combat pilot tears when CCP tiericides the combat ships. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
MinorFreak
Ordo Ministorum
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 16:18:00 -
[316] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:MinorFreak wrote:and uhm...i really shouldn't bother posting actual facts in this morass of shiite...but, it's about mining and i love mining. always have. what? pay $15 a month to pretend to be an astronaut? heck yah. I've always wanted to be a 'belter' (allusion to Cherryh) so...hulks nerfed/changed/worse/blah? eff that. they've stayed the same. oh stop whining, FFS. oldnew LOL ... Let's gimp the T2 Miner ... Where are your T2 strips? If you're going to gimp the best yield T2 miner by using T1 strips - then you must start using T1 Weapons on all those T2 combat ships as well. Can't wait for all the combat pilot tears when CCP tiericides the combat ships. ... wow. i hate to agree with a goon (i love to hate them) but you really do need to pull your head out of your arse. Who here understands which tech2 item i've put on board? (and tell me how much MORE cpu it uses than the strip miner.) And i really don't need to explain to the audience my point especially when you're unclear on the concept of comparison and contrast. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
64
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 18:40:00 -
[317] - Quote
16 pages in... still searching for meaningful dev interaction...
CCP Phantom wrote:As part of our ship rebalancing initiative our developers inspected the Mining Barges and Exhumers. Several changes were made to give our players a much better range of options while they still have to carefully consider which ship might be the best tool in the current situation. Read the latest devblog from CCP Tallest about the Mining Barge ship balancing here. The rebalanced mining barges and exhumers will be introduced first in EVE Online: Inferno 1.2. We welcome you to use this thread for constructive feedback, thank you! Ok, it takes a dev to start a devblog thread....
CCP Paradox wrote:Happy Mining Day :3
CCP Punkturis wrote:Team Super Friends, your BEST friends! Sorry. The pixiebob and voice/accent are both very cute, but this isn't interaction. In fact, if a player did it, it might be removed for spam.
CCP Masterplan wrote:From here: If a ship has an ore bay, incoming ore from modules/drones will always go in to the ore bay. If a ship does not have an ore bay, incoming ore from modules/drones will always go in to the cargo bay. If the appropriate bay is full, the module/drone will deactivate as normal, and excess ore is lost. Obvious answer is obvious.
CCP Fozzie wrote:The current mining frigates will not be losing their mining bonuses in Inferno 1.2, and we do not plan to leave people without entry level mining options. Nice, but c'mon... anybody can fit civilian mining lasers to anything. "Entry level" indeed! How about some of the designers saying "Oh, yeah, we didn't think about the added clicking hassle inherent in using GSCs, or people keeping track of crystals in corp holds, or how nobody ever puts Rorquals in a belt, or the that by the time an Orca aligns and accelerates to warp, an expanded and rigged IteronV could have been there and back. Twice." /bitterminingvet
|
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 19:24:00 -
[318] - Quote
Atum wrote:16 pages in... still searching for meaningful dev interaction...
(misc quotes removed)
Nice, but c'mon... anybody can fit civilian mining lasers to anything. "Entry level" indeed! How about some of the designers saying "Oh, yeah, we didn't think about the added clicking hassle inherent in using GSCs, or people keeping track of crystals in corp holds, or how nobody ever puts Rorquals in a belt, or the that by the time an Orca aligns and accelerates to warp, an expanded and rigged IteronV could have been there and back. Twice." /bitterminingvet
You won't get any Dev interaction on this issue because the PvP whiners know what's best for those miners and how they should mine.
Also, we already know by now that certain Devs don't listen to the player base when said player base actually knows what they're talking about. Why? See PvP whiner remark.
About the only honest change for the better the miners got out of this was a reduction in the crystal sizes. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
376
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 19:32:00 -
[319] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:About the only honest change for the better the miners got out of this was a reduction in the crystal sizes. rofl, no. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
65
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 19:33:00 -
[320] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:About the only honest change for the better the miners got out of this was a reduction in the crystal sizes. Not really, because all hold sizes were also beaten upon by steroid-buffed nerf bats. |
|
Turay
Veteranen GmbH
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 19:46:00 -
[321] - Quote
I read a lot of cargo hold and hitpoints but what is with some basic stuff like targeting range? I can live with the fact that a miner has a range of 15km. But please increase targeting range siginificantly I want to use my good drone skills in an exhumer. The current targeting range of 24km sucks !!!!!!! It's all about defense and did not affect the mining changes. |
Smarcus Smokus
Donkey Punch Pioneers Sticky Green Acres
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:08:00 -
[322] - Quote
Tainted Greek wrote: .....
EVE is a SandboxGǪ leave it aloneGǪ donGÇÖt change it to suit whining newbs at the expense of common sense.
......
The... irony.....brain....can't.....take.....it..... |
Ruareve
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
72
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:49:00 -
[323] - Quote
MinorFreak wrote:and uhm...i really shouldn't bother posting actual facts in this morass of shiite...but, it's about mining and i love mining. always have. what? pay $15 a month to pretend to be an astronaut? heck yah. I've always wanted to be a 'belter' (allusion to Cherryh) so...hulks nerfed/changed/worse/blah? eff that. they've stayed the same. oh stop whining, FFS. oldnew
Crazy thought, but if the Hulk mining cycle yield is based on maxed out fittings, boosts and whatnot, wouldn't fitting for a tank drop the yield below the level of other ships that have a built in tank?
Seems like the Hulk is not meant to be used in high sec anymore since the other ships have more advantages.
Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/ |
Trin Xi
205
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 20:53:00 -
[324] - Quote
Turay wrote:I read a lot of cargo hold and hitpoints but what is with some basic stuff like targeting range? I can live with the fact that a miner has a range of 15km. But please increase targeting range siginificantly I want to use my good drone skills in an exhumer. The current targeting range of 24km sucks !!!!!!! It's all about defense and did not affect the mining changes. That's what fleet boosters are for. |
MinorFreak
Ordo Ministorum
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:12:00 -
[325] - Quote
Ruareve wrote:MinorFreak wrote:and uhm...i really shouldn't bother posting actual facts in this morass of shiite...but, it's about mining and i love mining. always have. what? pay $15 a month to pretend to be an astronaut? heck yah. I've always wanted to be a 'belter' (allusion to Cherryh) so...hulks nerfed/changed/worse/blah? eff that. they've stayed the same. oh stop whining, FFS. oldnew Crazy thought, but if the Hulk mining cycle yield is based on maxed out fittings, boosts and whatnot, wouldn't fitting for a tank drop the yield below the level of other ships that have a built in tank? Seems like the Hulk is not meant to be used in high sec anymore since the other ships have more advantages. Ship Total Hit Points EHP Hulk 6000 8713 Covetor 4500 5771 Mackinaw 8000 11625 Retriever 6000 7691 Skiff 19625 29091 Procurer 18000 23252 Those are the numbers from the dev blog. What I would like to see instead. Hulk- 12000 EHP Covetor- 10000 EHP Mackinaw- 15000 EHP Retriever- 11000 EHP Skiff- 32000 EHP Procurer- 27000 EHP wow. totally missed my point. look, i was replying to the constant "OMG YOU NERFED HULK TANK" whines. never said i'd fly the damn thing tanked after the patch. I merely posted the same setup, on both servers, so folks would shut up about how little the EHP of the hulk actually changed. |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
186
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:15:00 -
[326] - Quote
Ruareve wrote: Those are the numbers from the dev blog. What I would like to see instead.
Hulk- 12000 EHP Covetor- 10000 EHP Mackinaw- 15000 EHP Retriever- 11000 EHP Skiff- 32000 EHP Procurer- 27000 EHP
Also I would like a pony and a supermodel girlfriend and a ferrari and a whole bucket of ice cream and a train set and another pony and to never have to go to school ever again because all my teachers are mean I hate them so much. |
Lilly Tiger
Megalith Heavy Industries
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:19:00 -
[327] - Quote
From the blog: Here is the end results of the changes to mining bonuses. For each type of ore/ice this is assuming perfect skills, fittings, implants and fleet bonuses (mining drones not included). I'll leave it to you to figure out exactly what those are.
ShipVeldspar/hourMercoxit/hourIce/hour Hulk 1,739,139 2,749 73 Covetor 1,578,043 2,492 69 Mackinaw 1,505,059 2,377 68 Retriever 1,433,390 2,264 64 Skiff 1,380,788 2,185 61 Procurer 1,315,038 2,078 58
Doesn't this meaning ice mining max yield has gone DOWN?
Current max is something like 76 per hour with implants (both for miner and booster), and maxed everything where a mack is in fleet with an orca.
|
Damien Anders
The Red Circle Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 21:24:00 -
[328] - Quote
Seriously, no tracking speed of the weapon but showing the dps?
Hit change is defined by range/distance/optimal/falloff and tracking so why is the angular tracking speed missing in the module mouse enhancement.
With optimal range and fall off as well tracking speed the good pilot searches his best orbit distance and speed to get the best dps. Without the angular tracking speed any dps information is misleading !
Please let us customize the information we want to see in the module mouse enhancement or add angular tracking speed! |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
280
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 22:07:00 -
[329] - Quote
Seems like CCP really wants miners to be part of the PVP experience. Maybe just as targets, but let's give the devs the benefit of the doubt for a minute.
So, where are the turret and launcher hardpoints? Add a few guns and launchers, so that mining barges and exhumers can shoot back. (Drones are nice, but everyone knows guns and missiles are better). Give the barges/exhumbers a bonus to target locking - ie. zero seconds - so they can lock a ganker faster than a ganker can lock them... just to be fair.
Or, how about adding the special ability to the Hulk to use a doomsday weapon? That would be cool and the ultimate in making miners the new princes of PVP.... lol. Ofc, you'd need to kick the Hulk skill req to Exhumers 5....
Or, perhaps a new module - the Corbomite device. This device would take any incoming damage and instantly reflect it back on a ganker, multiplied ten-fold. Ha, ha, ha.... :) |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
187
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 22:16:00 -
[330] - Quote
I just love these changes. I now have a choice, not simply get hulk I am done.
I now even have a reason to use a procurer I have the odd issue but in my opinion it is 5 steps forward and 1 step back
The gankers are complaining about no being able to gank the procurer and the minmax charbears complain about the need for support.
So since both side are unhappy this is a balanced solution , I guess .
Can't wait till tomorrow
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
|
Tainted Greek
House Of Hades Female Breast Inspectors
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 22:20:00 -
[331] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Ruareve wrote: Those are the numbers from the dev blog. What I would like to see instead.
Hulk- 12000 EHP Covetor- 10000 EHP Mackinaw- 15000 EHP Retriever- 11000 EHP Skiff- 32000 EHP Procurer- 27000 EHP
Also I would like a pony and a supermodel girlfriend and a ferrari and a whole bucket of ice cream and a train set and another pony and to never have to go to school ever again because all my teachers are mean I hate them so much.
Yeep you trolling again? I'd still like to hear your motivation for your views on all this as well as your Alliances...
Good luck with the supermodel girlfriend and all that... actually ... have you tried The SimsGäó? I think they'll have everything your looking for. |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
186
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 22:40:00 -
[332] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote: So, where are the turret and launcher hardpoints? Add a few guns and launchers, so that mining barges and exhumers can shoot back. (Drones are nice, but everyone knows guns and missiles are better). Give the barges/exhumbers a bonus to target locking - ie. zero seconds - so they can lock a ganker faster than a ganker can lock them... just to be fair.
Theres already a mining ship with turret hardpoints. Its called a battleship. Its way harder to suicide gank too.
|
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
280
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 23:00:00 -
[333] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Theres already a mining ship with turret hardpoints. Its called a battleship. Its way harder to suicide gank too. Nah, you are looking at it the wrong way. That's using a PVP ship to do other things. Chribba has already done that sort of thing to the nines with his Veldnaught.
CCP apparently wants non-PVP ships to be part of the PVP experience, so I think they need guns/launchers, too, not just tank.
Next, I'd really like to see combat freighters, armed with tons of weapons - and not the silly pinatas we have now. Unarmed haulers just make no sense, when you are supposed to be living in a "harsh and unforgiving universe".
Every ship in Eve should be able to go pew-pew.... :) |
CowRocket Void
Angelicus Cruxes INC. LLC
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 01:51:00 -
[334] - Quote
Wow, I ran out of cheese with all this whine. I mine, I mine a lot. The changes are good. I sold my hulk fleet 2 weeks ago and bought skiffs, made over half a bil profit. My mining output will not really change.
Also, pvp'n in a skiff is fun against assault frigs, they don't expect it |
Mericon
NanoCore Systems
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 02:32:00 -
[335] - Quote
The hulk was king of all mining vessels I have been mining in my hulk for 2 years this is an insult to all that have traind to fly a hulk. if thay inplement this i will probly leve the game. I feal robed all the skillpoints invested to being a maxed miner and my alt a maxed orca pilot and roqual pilot. |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
617
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 03:21:00 -
[336] - Quote
Well good thing you have that rorqual alt, You will need it to bring crystals to your hulk pilot. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Ruareve
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
72
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 04:03:00 -
[337] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Ruareve wrote: Those are the numbers from the dev blog. What I would like to see instead.
Hulk- 12000 EHP Covetor- 10000 EHP Mackinaw- 15000 EHP Retriever- 11000 EHP Skiff- 32000 EHP Procurer- 27000 EHP
Also I would like a pony and a supermodel girlfriend and a ferrari and a whole bucket of ice cream and a train set and another pony and to never have to go to school ever again because all my teachers are mean I hate them so much.
Sounds like someone is afraid they might have to actually work for a gank and spend some money.
The numbers I've listed don't make mining ships invincible or overpowered. It simply gives miners the chance to actually fit mining modules and still have enough defense to let friends stop a gank.
With the numbers on Sisi the Hulk will still be a gank magnet and I doubt there will be many of them flown in high sec. It makes no sense to fly such a fragile ship even if you do have a fleet. Hulks will be great for places where the rule is shoot first, shoot second, and loot third but that's about it.
Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/ |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 06:49:00 -
[338] - Quote
Tainted Greek wrote:WTF! Seriously what is the reason for this stupidity?
I have no problem with some skill changes that can lead to specializing in different mining ships.
But to NERF the Hulk?
The Covetor has no tank to speak of nor can you put any decent tank on it. The Covetor should be getting a big jump in resistances! The Hulk should remain at the top of itGÇÖs class.
EVE should be and should remain a sand box!
I donGÇÖt need some developer DICTATING to me how I should play, because some body thinks that the Hulk is a GROUP mining operation vessel! Thanks for shoving your views down my throat!
There is a reason, a very real reason that most people start off in smaller craft! Its true in just about every profession.
Somebody decided that we can just turn everything you know upside down AND make it utterly unbelievable! The ProcGÇÖ/Skiff becomes the Tardis! And will blow the biggest EXHUMER away with EHP and Cargo capacity???? Changing gameplay and the need for haulersGǪ
It took me a long time to EARN my first HULK, it should be the craft that can do everything wellGǪ at about 280 Million ISK to replaceGǪ it should be resistant to ganking and griefing. IGÇÖve used mine solo more than I ever have with a group.
EVE is a SandboxGǪ leave it aloneGǪ donGÇÖt change it to suit whining newbs at the expense of common sense.
New Mining Frigate sounds cool, specialized skill path for barges or exhumers sounds fine. Your so called REBALANCING is fundamentally flawed!
first of all, a sandbox game essencially means that the developers give you the tools to use, and you use those tools however you want within the constraints of the game. CCP making changes to mining barges is not changing this base gameplay experience.
A sandbox game does not mean that you get to do whatever you want because of course, thats impossible to do in a multi-player game IE I want to kill you, and you want to not die, what happens?
CCP is simply changing the tools you can use to make your sandcastle, and in fact theyre effectively adding more tools because before the hulk was the obvious choice, so much so that the skiff may as well not even have existed, and the mackinaw wasnt really all that far behind. CCP basically gave you two additional tools to take another look at and use rather than the one obvious choice. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 07:04:00 -
[339] - Quote
Even you must admit that at a base level, CCP does define the roles of all ships; now players can take ships OUT of their role, but all ships have something that you can look at the ship and say "this is what this ship is for"
IE The Hulk is a mining ship . . . CCP decided that, players didnt, but creative players came up with the battle hulk and surprised people with hulks that can fight, but that is taking the ship out of the job it was clearly built to do.
What I dont want, and im sure you dont either is a ship that can ONLY do its pre defined role. IE if a hulk couldnt fit combat drones for whatever reason, or it's bonuses only worked if you were in a fleet that would be an unnecessary restriction.
That being said, I challenge anyone who says that CCP shouldnt tell us what ships are "supposed to do" to describe for me a ship that is a clean slate that doesnt have any bias about what it's "supposed to do" . . .
What would that look like? it wouldnt have slots because having low slots might indicate its an armor tanker it wouldnt have bonuses because that defines what it's supposed to do. it wouldnt have weapons because that might indicate its a combat ship it wouldnt have a cargo hold because that might indicate that its a transport ship
I have no problem with the more defined "ship lines" as long as they dont make it so those ships can ONLY do those things. Also, I love how everyone seemed to be ok with CCP telling them "the mackinaw is for ice mining" but everyone runs around with their arms flailing when CCP tells them "the hulk is a fleet mining ship" |
Briani
The Dotted Line Eve Trade Union
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 07:28:00 -
[340] - Quote
I welcome the tier 1 and 2 barge changes but feel the Hulk, being king of the miners, needs a bit little of loving.
What i'd propose is a mechanism where if the Hulk is aggressed it turns very green, and as we all know when a hulk turns green it gets a somewhat angry.
An angry hulk would then be able to use it's strip miners as offensive weapons and launch uberdeath upon the aggressors while at the same time providing a welcome boost to sheilds for a period of time.
Also the cargo bay does need to be quite a bit bigger.
|
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Andrew Indy
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 07:29:00 -
[341] - Quote
Vanessa Vansen wrote: - Rigs ... the ice / mercoxit rigs have calibration cost of 250 ... so you can either have a good ice miner or a good mercoxit miner. I don't like that I would prefer costs of 200 but at most one rig of a kind, so that you can use a single hulk for both instead of a hulk for ice and one for mercoxit ... yes, before you had to use 3 different ships for that but at that time the role was about what you mine ... now the role is how you mine (fleet / solo / tanky), so you should be able to fit one of each. You could instead introduce a single rig with cost of 200, so that a pair of those rigs would grant that bonus to both ice and mercoxit mining
People keep on harping about this issue, before you had to have 3 ships and now you have to have 3 ships. It just happen that before the change you had a Skiff, a Mack and a Hulk and now you just have 3 of one type. I did not see any threads 4 miles long about how it was so unfair that they had to switch ships to mine ice ect so why is it an issue now. Just because the name of the ships are the same does not change the situation.
You could compare this to say a mission ship with CCC rigs to a Incursion/PVP ship with tanky or DPS rigs, if you want to fill multiple rolls get multiple ships.
|
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
58
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 07:56:00 -
[342] - Quote
Exhumers are still short of powergrid. The Hulk and Mack have three additional midslots over their T1 counterparts. All midslot fittings require at least 1MW (modified for skills) and therefore both the Mack and Hulk need an additional 3MW of PG.
The cargoholds, despite the reduction in crystal size, are still too small. The only container which can be used to seperate active and spare crystal sets are the smalls at present and that allows the Mackinaw only two sets of spare crystals (which is counter to its self-sufficiency ideal). The need to increase cargo is made more significant by the potential of fitting ASBs and therefore of carrying cap booster charges as well as mining crystals. An increase to 500m3 would allow a medium container to be used to seperate crystals while still limiting them, minimising the "overflow" from the ore bay and without the barges/exhumers treading on the toes of Vexors as haulers (yes, I don't buy the idea that they've been limited to stop them impinging on the role of ships which all start with a minimum of 3000m3 cargo). |
kari bourza
Capital Industries Research And Development Fidelas Constans
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 11:27:00 -
[343] - Quote
sound good |
kyba
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 12:01:00 -
[344] - Quote
Fix the bloody huge spod rock in the hidden belts and replace it with something useful! Or just get rid of it |
marly cortez
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 12:37:00 -
[345] - Quote
Seems the Hi-sec Gankers get a kick in the nutz but other than that this update will make mining interesting for a few days as peeps strive to figure out what the hell the devs have actually done against what they have said they will do.
Few gripes though, Rigs...only T1 variant with no chance of players knocking up a T2 variant, Cal means you cannot add anything other that say a low end T1 Kinetic rig, still means Null sec miners will need cover for spawns, in short maintain one mining vessel on short yields just to tank rats or short the whole fleet to fit any sort of useful tank at all, so nothing has got any better there has it.
Ice mining appears on the face of it to have taken a huge hit unless were reading it wrong, two equals three, hows that work then, 6 blocks against four per cycle, wonder how many calculators took a trip to the wall trying to work that one out.
Poor attention to PG/CPU requirements, they say that they wanted to make mining vessels more resilient, but then come up short on what is needed to allow players to achieve this.
Cannot see anything here that really peaks interest, yes they have shuffled stuff around but in reality little will change for miners that run Null sec mining fleets except maybe there profits will fall and possibly it may be useful to run a skiff as tank, other than that it,s business as usual. |
Jesspa
BlackWing Cartel
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 13:53:00 -
[346] - Quote
Mostly I'm ok with these changes, as a miner most of the time myself. However, it doesn't seem quite right that a Hulk, which will often be out mining for hours at a time as part of a big mining op, can't hold enough spare crystals to do that, whereas a Retriever of a Mackinaw, seemingly designed more for solo mining, can hold far more. I don't need a huge traditional cargo hold in my Hulk, but I don't think it's wrong to expect it to be able to carry more crystals than a Ret, and enough to keep me going on a long op. |
phobos1
MissionCorp MissionCorp Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 14:34:00 -
[347] - Quote
I might just aswell get rid of my hulk now as a solo miner the Cargo Bay which I used too store ore in has been reduced by so much its not worth even trying too mine with it any more and the ore bay is like a glove box useless , once again CCP have screwed up big time !! thnx for ruining my player experience. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
111
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 14:49:00 -
[348] - Quote
phobos1 wrote:I might just aswell get rid of my hulk now as a solo miner the Cargo Bay which I used too store ore in has been reduced by so much its not worth even trying too mine with it any more and the ore bay is like a glove box useless , once again CCP have screwed up big time !! thnx for ruining my player experience.
Your new mackinaw should out perform your old Hulk. Fewer trips to the station should make up for the yield difference. |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
381
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 14:54:00 -
[349] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:phobos1 wrote:I might just aswell get rid of my hulk now as a solo miner the Cargo Bay which I used too store ore in has been reduced by so much its not worth even trying too mine with it any more and the ore bay is like a glove box useless , once again CCP have screwed up big time !! thnx for ruining my player experience. Your new mackinaw should out perform your old Hulk. Fewer trips to the station should make up for the yield difference.
it won't, unless you only mine for an hour or so a day... the hulk's yield bonus, even swapping to a mammoth or an itty to haul will still give you more ore/hour. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
111
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 14:58:00 -
[350] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Droxlyn wrote:phobos1 wrote:I might just aswell get rid of my hulk now as a solo miner the Cargo Bay which I used too store ore in has been reduced by so much its not worth even trying too mine with it any more and the ore bay is like a glove box useless , once again CCP have screwed up big time !! thnx for ruining my player experience. Your new mackinaw should out perform your old Hulk. Fewer trips to the station should make up for the yield difference. it won't, unless you only mine for an hour or so a day... the hulk's yield bonus, even swapping to a mammoth or an itty to haul will still give you more ore/hour. That's jetcan mining. The OP wrote like he was not doing jetcan mining. If you do anything to make your Hulk live in the belt and do something else to retrieve it, then the hulk wins. (But Macks still win with 2 Macks vs 1 Hulk + Orca/hauler.)
Drox |
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CCP Tallest
C C P C C P Alliance
300
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 15:09:00 -
[351] - Quote
Anvil44 wrote:Also before chribba? Nice progressions here. Do the exhumers also require Astrogeology III? Or up to V? The Exhumers skill still requires Astrogeology V
Madam Isk wrote:Will existing hulks get their rig's "refunded"? I'm sure I'm not the only one that invested in T2 cargo rigs for my hulk that are now worthless so I'm hoping they will be de-equipped so I can sell or re-purpose them. Rigs will not be moved or refunded.
Droxlyn wrote:The ore hold on the Hulk on Sisi is at 7500. Is there a planned boost or is there an error in the dev blog? The last batch of changes were put on SISI after the blog was posted. The blog and patch notes have the correct numbers.
Geksz wrote:So is that so easy to store a lot of people's mining crystals on orcas and rorquals? Is it easy to use the dedicated corp hangars with containers? Do any of the miners want to put their crystals on someone elses orcas every time they go mining in 0.0? If one wants to mine all ore types in 0.0 how much space will it take to bring all the required crystals for all the Hulks in the fleet?
Just asking...
With the reduced cargo hold one can't even bring his crystals with their Hulk out and put it in a can to store... The Hulk has enough space to bring 1 set of tech II crystals in his mining lasers plus 4 spare sets of crystals. On average, this should allow you to mine 1 type of ore for at least 25 hours or 5 types of ore for at least 5 hours each. If you absolutely have to be able to mine more types or mine for longer, then you will need to either go to a place where you store more crystals or have a fleet member supply you with them. I would also like to point out that a strip miner with no crystals in it can mine any type of ore. It is far less efficient than using a mining crystal, but if you really want to clear out a small asteroid that you do not have crystals for, this is always an option.
Tric Starless wrote:Is this a typo? : "Skiff and Retriever are getting hit points comparable to a battleship"
Because the EHP chart doesn't match up... Think you meant Skiff and Procurer? Yes that is a typo. I'll get it fixed.
Jaques D'Builder wrote:So I suppose the question is. Does the ore go to the ore hold after the mining cycle completes, or do you have to manually move it from the cargo to the ore hold.
If you have to move it, this will drive mineral prices up because AFK miners will be nonexistent. Ore is mined straight into the ore hold both from mining lasers and from mining drones.
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Silath Slyver Silverpine
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 15:10:00 -
[352] - Quote
These changes look fantastic! |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 15:10:00 -
[353] - Quote
As a miner, I find the changes to be welcome. I have a Hulk, but I mine mostly in hisec and a Hulk is really overkill for what I want -- too expensive, and too rich a gank-target in certain systems. I think the new Ret/Mack will fit my playstyle a lot better -- instead of having one alt mining and another driving the hauler, I can have them both out in the belt running mining lasers on rocks.
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marly cortez
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 15:16:00 -
[354] - Quote
Ship balancing my ruddy arse, more like a 10% nerf to mining across the board, swine peaked my interest now. |
m0rnin
Red Army Recon SiNTaX err0r
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 16:50:00 -
[355] - Quote
Erm where are all the prints for these ship????????? |
Nemesis Bosseret
Dysfunctional Nocturnal Rejects Insane Asylum
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 16:52:00 -
[356] - Quote
so............. let me get this straight.......... you guys are helping miners by going and nerfing us for one, two u just made a 200 mil ship completly useless, and you just helped the fake bot miners have a ship to use when you guys have put out forever that you are totally against this........ Way to go CCP you just epicly screwed up. Congrats tho to goons tho i give you guys props for holding up hulkageddon for so long and honestly that helps us more than hurts us because it just supports the industry.. as to this rebalancing its completly ********. what are you guys trying to accomplish really? it was supposed to be specialtiy ships for each type of mining not hey we are going to make a tank ship for nul sec...dumb..... bot ship for high sec...... even dumber......realtivly not touch the hulk but give it a cargo hold for ore instead? Im sorry im complaining because this has to be the dumbest thing i have seen you guys do in my time playing this game, recommend actually talking to the people you are about to screw before making a major game change because odviously there was no consult with any of us. if i wanted a mining ship that just sat there forever id strap a mining laser to an transport and sit there forever and a day like noobs do...... pfft whatever im going to go drink and go back to killing random people and just making someones life hell |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
66
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 17:00:00 -
[357] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:The Hulk has enough space to bring 1 set of tech II crystals in his mining lasers plus 4 spare sets of crystals. On average, this should allow you to mine 1 type of ore for at least 25 hours or 5 types of ore for at least 5 hours each. Assuming a "set" equals three, and should last approximately five hours, have I always just had really ****** luck with crystals, or has their volatility been reduced? If the former, I'd appreciate having my undocumented luck stat re-rolled. If the latter, I'm still quite displeased with not being able to carry a set of everything, but at least I won't need five of each crystal anymore.
And there's still a metric fsckton of other comments made by myself and others that need addressing............. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 18:17:00 -
[358] - Quote
Atum wrote:CCP Tallest wrote:The Hulk has enough space to bring 1 set of tech II crystals in his mining lasers plus 4 spare sets of crystals. On average, this should allow you to mine 1 type of ore for at least 25 hours or 5 types of ore for at least 5 hours each. Assuming a "set" equals three, and should last approximately five hours, have I always just had really ****** luck with crystals, or has their volatility been reduced? If the former, I'd appreciate having my undocumented luck stat re-rolled. If the latter, I'm still quite displeased with not being able to carry a set of everything, but at least I won't need five of each crystal anymore. And there's still a metric fsckton of other comments made by myself and others that need addressing.............
At risk of sounding like a broken record:
CCP Tallest you are sounding like a paper theory crafter warrior than someone who actually put the theory to use.
Breaking down crystals into how long they last just does not work, rock types vary in size and length of time to mine.
Used crystals last much less longer than the stated 5 hours.
In reality your numbers are a crock, so you are forcing us to break up our mining cycles to change out crystals, whether you have to head to a pos/dockup or arrange someone to deliver them to you..
Counting the set loaded in the lasers is false as well, as you can't load ammo while docked, so in reality, the selection of crystals to load up before heading out is 4 sets without spares.
Is that the intention of this change, for people to just say the hell with T2 lasers and mine less? Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
111
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 18:19:00 -
[359] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote: Counting the set loaded in the lasers is false as well, as you can't load ammo while docked, so in reality, the selection of crystals to load up before heading out is 4 sets without spares.
Odd, every time I drop ammo on the weapons in the fitting window, they get loaded up. Do you mean when you drop the ammo on the ship?
Drox |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 18:20:00 -
[360] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Jake Rivers wrote: Counting the set loaded in the lasers is false as well, as you can't load ammo while docked, so in reality, the selection of crystals to load up before heading out is 4 sets without spares.
Odd, every time I drop ammo on the weapons in the fitting window, they get loaded up. Do you mean when you drop the ammo on the ship? Drox
I never tried that, well that is nice.
Thanks for the tip. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
|
Ruareve
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
72
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 18:24:00 -
[361] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Atum wrote:CCP Tallest wrote:The Hulk has enough space to bring 1 set of tech II crystals in his mining lasers plus 4 spare sets of crystals. On average, this should allow you to mine 1 type of ore for at least 25 hours or 5 types of ore for at least 5 hours each. Assuming a "set" equals three, and should last approximately five hours, have I always just had really ****** luck with crystals, or has their volatility been reduced? If the former, I'd appreciate having my undocumented luck stat re-rolled. If the latter, I'm still quite displeased with not being able to carry a set of everything, but at least I won't need five of each crystal anymore. And there's still a metric fsckton of other comments made by myself and others that need addressing............. At risk of sounding like a broken record: CCP Tallest you are sounding like a paper theory crafter warrior than someone who actually put the theory to use. Breaking down crystals into how long they last just does not work, rock types vary in size and length of time to mine. Used crystals last much less longer than the stated 5 hours. In reality your numbers are a crock, so you are forcing us to break up our mining cycles to change out crystals, whether you have to head to a pos/dockup or arrange someone to deliver them to you.. Counting the set loaded in the lasers is false as well, as you can't load ammo while docked, so in reality, the selection of crystals to load up before heading out is 4 sets without spares. Is that the intention of this change, for people to just say the hell with T2 lasers and mine less?
Pretty sure you can load ammo while docked, just drag and drop onto the laser and the crystal is loaded.
The Hulk is designed as a fleet miner, so there should always be support ships available. As for the "whose crystal is it" thing just have the orca toss in some medium containers and label them to avoid confusion.
The problem is the Hulk can either be the highest output miner and have a pitiful tank so that dessie's can gank them, or you drop below the other barges output but fit a tank. The Hulk will continue to be nothing but a free kill in high sec with the current EHP and design.
Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/ |
|
CCP Tallest
C C P C C P Alliance
300
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 18:51:00 -
[362] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:corestwo wrote:My "math" is looking at a maxed out rorqual boosted Hulk in EFT and seeing that it gets 2857m3/minute in yield. 2857m3 x 60 minutes is 171,420m3 per hour, which means 1,171,420 units of veld per hour, which is in line with what the blog says after accounting for the fact that I didn't bother to plug implants into the miner profile in EFT.
So, assuming the information posted in the blog here is accurate, things don't change. If sisi has different information, then perhaps its running a slightly older version than what is going to push to live or something. my maths has gone wrong somewhere, i've got 104.0625 second cycles with rorq bonuses, somehow i'm just getting more yield. a hulk with... t2 strips + t2 crystals, astrogeology, mining, mining barges, exhumers all at V, then 2x mlus and both the 5% highwall and the michi implant i'm getting 1961.03...m3 per cycle per strip, giving me 3392m3 per min. **** knows, it's too late at night for me to be messing with this crap. with orca bonuses it's 2898.5.. m3/cycle, giving 173,911m3 which is closer to dev blog numbers. You are correct in this. I was using Orca bonuses when clearly the Rorqual bonus is superior. I have updated the blog to include both sets of numbers. |
|
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 19:02:00 -
[363] - Quote
I know you can't put 2 of the new rigs on at the same time, but was it possible to install one of each type onto the same ship? Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
marly cortez
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 20:28:00 -
[364] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:I know you can't put 2 of the new rigs on at the same time, but was it possible to install one of each type onto the same ship?
You cant put two Ice rigs on but you can put a medium ice harvester accelerator 1 (Only type available)
Plus A Med Processor Overclocking Unit giving you a 7.1% boost to CPU,
Add in an EE 605 slot 6 implant and you should have enough CPU to fit a reasonable tank to the hulk for almost all Null sec spawns given good skills.
|
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 20:44:00 -
[365] - Quote
I meant that 2 rigs being one ice and one mercoxit rig. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 20:51:00 -
[366] - Quote
theyre both 250 calibration so no. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 21:09:00 -
[367] - Quote
Sigras wrote:theyre both 250 calibration so no.
Dastardly, was hoping we could of went from 3 different dedicated mining ships to 2 dedicated mining ship types. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 21:11:00 -
[368] - Quote
how so? you still only need two ships since there is no rig that helps ore mining. you have one for ore/mercoxit and one for ore/ice |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 21:49:00 -
[369] - Quote
One question I just thought of:
Are the invention requirements for the mining barges going to be changed? because as it stands, its quite a bit harder to invent a hulk than skiff. |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
395
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 22:01:00 -
[370] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Dave stark wrote:corestwo wrote:My "math" is looking at a maxed out rorqual boosted Hulk in EFT and seeing that it gets 2857m3/minute in yield. 2857m3 x 60 minutes is 171,420m3 per hour, which means 1,171,420 units of veld per hour, which is in line with what the blog says after accounting for the fact that I didn't bother to plug implants into the miner profile in EFT.
So, assuming the information posted in the blog here is accurate, things don't change. If sisi has different information, then perhaps its running a slightly older version than what is going to push to live or something. my maths has gone wrong somewhere, i've got 104.0625 second cycles with rorq bonuses, somehow i'm just getting more yield. a hulk with... t2 strips + t2 crystals, astrogeology, mining, mining barges, exhumers all at V, then 2x mlus and both the 5% highwall and the michi implant i'm getting 1961.03...m3 per cycle per strip, giving me 3392m3 per min. **** knows, it's too late at night for me to be messing with this crap. with orca bonuses it's 2898.5.. m3/cycle, giving 173,911m3 which is closer to dev blog numbers. You are correct in this. I was using Orca bonuses when clearly the Rorqual bonus is superior. I have updated the blog to include both sets of numbers.
good to know i managed to puzzle it out correctly. thanks for the confirmation. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 22:11:00 -
[371] - Quote
Sigras wrote:how so? you still only need two ships since there is no rig that helps ore mining. you have one for ore/mercoxit and one for ore/ice
One hulk requires cargo rigs so I can carry spare crystals. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 22:30:00 -
[372] - Quote
because one cargo rig isnt enough for you? assuming you're mining in a hulk which is what youve been whining about all this time, each cargo rig will allow you to fit one extra set of crystals . . . is it really worth buying another ship so you can mine one additional type of ore at a time? |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
397
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 22:35:00 -
[373] - Quote
pro tip; stop putting cargo rigs on your hulk, it was a bad idea before, however now it's just pure ******* ********. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 22:47:00 -
[374] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:pro tip; stop putting cargo rigs on your hulk, it was a bad idea before, however now it's just pure ******* ********.
QFT
A cargo-maxed Hulk was always a failfit. It's just more so now.
|
Mos7Wan7ed
Gladiators of Rage Intrepid Crossing
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 23:43:00 -
[375] - Quote
I mine in 0.0 and I am not happy with cargo holds for the hulk... Empire dwellers could care less cause they only normally get 4 roid types. The added need to micro manage for 0.0 pilots is beyond annoying, and pointless. More so for those that multi-box. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 00:11:00 -
[376] - Quote
Sigras wrote:because one cargo rig isnt enough for you? assuming you're mining in a hulk which is what youve been whining about all this time, each cargo rig will allow you to fit one extra set of crystals . . . is it really worth buying another ship so you can mine one additional type of ore at a time?
Since I have 10 hulks, I have no need to buy extra's, just working out setups for my 3 mining toons.
I do like my crystal options (so maybe I am stubborn, old, cranky and set in my ways), so 3 hulks are rigged for cargo, 3 will be rigged for tank/mercoxit and 3 for ice/tank.
It may turn out that I just end up using the mercoxit ship for most ore mining, but when I have to hit multiple rocks, the cargo rigs are going to be the way to go I think.
Some have had cargo rigs in the past, others I never had a real need to fit for tank, as the rats get dealt with in a timely fashion.
So I am changing some of the macs for tank and the skiffs not sure if I will use them but will play with them a bit, cause they certainly are beasts now.
Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Mos7Wan7ed
Gladiators of Rage Intrepid Crossing
17
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 00:17:00 -
[377] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Sigras wrote:because one cargo rig isnt enough for you? assuming you're mining in a hulk which is what youve been whining about all this time, each cargo rig will allow you to fit one extra set of crystals . . . is it really worth buying another ship so you can mine one additional type of ore at a time? Since I have 10 hulks, I have no need to buy extra's, just working out setups for my 3 mining toons. I do like my crystal options (so maybe I am stubborn, old, cranky and set in my ways), so 3 hulks are rigged for cargo, 3 will be rigged for tank/mercoxit and 3 for ice/tank. It may turn out that I just end up using the mercoxit ship for most ore mining, but when I have to hit multiple rocks, the cargo rigs are going to be the way to go I think. Some have had cargo rigs in the past, others I never had a real need to fit for tank, as the rats get dealt with in a timely fashion. So I am changing some of the macs for tank and the skiffs not sure if I will use them but will play with them a bit, cause they certainly are beasts now.
They are forcing players to take compromise that reduced yield and that's not how it should be. You should be able to rig for tank or for mercoxit yield and not be forced to rig for cargo to eek out enough space for a few more sets of crystals. You should not be forced into considering going to a skiff and take a 20% reduction in overall yield just to deal with the situation either.
Hulks can still fit a faction\deep space tank and perma-tank any NPC spawn out there including drones. Unless you are mining in empire that is all you will ever need. |
Artemus Dak
RED SUN RISING
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 00:47:00 -
[378] - Quote
Regarding the mining barge changes The millions of isk spent on "cargo optimization rigs" are now useless. They were bought to increase ore amount capability, not to make more cargo space. And of course they can't be removed without destroying them. The amount of ore I can haul with my Hulk is half of what it was before ! But I have lots of cargo space I don't need. |
Mos7Wan7ed
Gladiators of Rage Intrepid Crossing
17
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 00:50:00 -
[379] - Quote
Artemus Dak wrote:Regarding the mining barge changes The millions of isk spent on "cargo optimization rigs" are now useless. They were bought to increase ore amount capability, not to make more cargo space. And of course they can't be removed without destroying them. The amount of ore I can haul with my Hulk is half of what it was before ! But I have lots of cargo space I don't need.
Wait to remove them. CCP is making changes to ship fits that when done may allow you to unfit rigs. Read the UI changes talked about in the CSM minutes. Changes posted in there are scheduled for winter expansion. |
Uthgaard
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 00:51:00 -
[380] - Quote
One needs to consider the point at which a change goes from tuning and balance, and crosses over into the realm of different design. The amount of tank on a barge has typically been an irrelevant factor in the decision to steal a ship's ore. In particular this is less of a factor when the ship is no longer capable of holding more than a single cycle. Simply put, no one attacks a barge for isk. While the decision to reduce the tank available on certain ships may have been made with certain intended results, the consequences of that decision have not been carefully evaluated. Barges are now being suicide ganked in high sec for no purpose other than their destruction, since the cost of doing so has been reduced to the point of triviality. As I said initially, this becomes a design change when the allure of mining in high sec (low, steady, relatively low risk income) is altered to the extent that an individual who had invested in the skills to pursue that goal based on those factors will regret that decision, and newcomers with that goal in mind would not choose to mine. There is never any shortage of trolls who prefer to prance around ivory towers with holier-than-thou mocking tones, telling individuals the idealistic 'shoulds'. They should expect this, they should do that. However fine these statements sound while being trumpeted out of the ivory towers, they are limited to theory. In practice, this will lead to the abandonment of mining as a profession by many who were hit by the unforeseen consequences of the balancing (that was an effective role redesign); the lack several demographics of new miners entering the mining profession. Ultimately this will have a butterfly effect and result in a dramatic increase in ore prices, and the cancellation of accounts of those who are now skeptical of investing considerable time and money into future goals in EVE. |
|
Mos7Wan7ed
Gladiators of Rage Intrepid Crossing
17
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 00:53:00 -
[381] - Quote
Uthgaard wrote:One needs to consider the point at which a change goes from tuning and balance, and crosses over into the realm of different design. The amount of tank on a barge has typically been an irrelevant factor in the decision to steal a ship's ore. In particular this is less of a factor when the ship is no longer capable of holding more than a single cycle. Simply put, no one attacks a barge for isk. While the decision to reduce the tank available on certain ships may have been made with certain intended results, the consequences of that decision have not been carefully evaluated. Barges are now being suicide ganked in high sec for no purpose other than their destruction, since the cost of doing so has been reduced to the point of triviality. As I said initially, this becomes a design change when the allure of mining in high sec (low, steady, relatively low risk income) is altered to the extent that an individual who had invested in the skills to pursue that goal based on those factors will regret that decision, and newcomers with that goal in mind would not choose to mine. There is never any shortage of trolls who prefer to prance around ivory towers with holier-than-thou mocking tones, telling individuals the idealistic 'shoulds'. They should expect this, they should do that. However fine these statements sound while being trumpeted out of the ivory towers, they are limited to theory. In practice, this will lead to the abandonment of mining as a profession by many who were hit by the unforeseen consequences of the balancing (that was an effective role redesign); the lack several demographics of new miners entering the mining profession. Ultimately this will have a butterfly effect and result in a dramatic increase in ore prices, and the cancellation of accounts of those who are now skeptical of investing considerable time and money into future goals in EVE.
The Covetor yield has doubled and the cost to replace the loss compared to the income increase is what makes getting ganked truly trivial. If that is too much then drop down to a retriever where the cost of replacement is many times less but the drop in yield is only minor.
Just remember, any tom **** and harry can build those barges with very little skill, some bpc's, and a few million isk in zydrine and megacyte bought off the market. If you build replacement ships for yourself then the replacement cost drops from 24 million down to next to nothing where the insurance payout can probably pay for the high end minerals that you can't mine yourself. They almost replace themselves. |
Uthgaard
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 00:57:00 -
[382] - Quote
Perhaps you noticed the mention of ivory towers. Thank you for illustrating my point flawlessly. Attempt to stop bleating your 'shoulds' long enough to consider the difference between the intent and the impact.
One would not expect to take down an obelisk in a single velator in high sec. Nor should hulks and other barges be at that same level of relative risk. |
Chaos Transcension
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 01:12:00 -
[383] - Quote
It takes me over 2000m3 currently to comfortably hold a batch of every t2 crystal, 250m3 at half-batch with only 4 crystals and now I have to rely on somebody else to hold for me? Meaning now they gotta bump their big ass rorqual or orca up between me and the speckles of ore in the hidden belts to give me different crystals? I could not see many capital indy pilots bumping their ships up in a belt to trade crystals with 10-30 pilots. That is why they have a tractor beam that goes 80km instead.
So I guess as I see it, you are encouraging everyone to mine smaller amounts, afk longer, and know they can survive a small gank attempt with a passive tank? at least hi-sec miners can go back to afk-mining in their tanks! Yay! You're bringing back the botters almost!
And in the end, at least something is done for the most shafted backbone of EVE Online.
Now alls we need is a new hidden belt to spawn up in 0.0 systems that are sov level 4 or 5 that are slam packed with dense veldspar and Massive Scordite as far as the eye can load.
AAAAaaaaand as long as my hulks can tank about the same hits from npc spawns, I'll be happy, I don't want to warp my guys out just cause one or two rats aggros them. |
Mos7Wan7ed
Gladiators of Rage Intrepid Crossing
17
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 01:15:00 -
[384] - Quote
Uthgaard wrote:Perhaps you noticed the mention of ivory towers. Thank you for illustrating my point flawlessly. Attempt to stop bleating your 'shoulds' long enough to consider the difference between the intent and the impact.
One would not expect to take down an obelisk in a single velator in high sec. Nor should hulks and other barges be at that same level of relative risk.
Barges are Tech 1 cruise class ship hulls and at that level they have EHP similar to other ships in that size and Tech level. They should be easy to gank.
Tech 2 hulls normally have more default ehp, higher resistances, more fitting slots for tank, and more fitting resources (CPU \ Powergrid \ Capacitor). |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 01:33:00 -
[385] - Quote
Chaos Transcension wrote:It takes me over 2000m3 currently to comfortably hold a batch of every t2 crystal, 250m3 at half-batch with only 4 crystals and now I have to rely on somebody else to hold for me? Meaning now they gotta bump their big ass rorqual or orca up between me and the speckles of ore in the hidden belts to give me different crystals? I could not see many capital indy pilots bumping their ships up in a belt to trade crystals with 10-30 pilots. That is why they have a tractor beam that goes 80km instead.
So I guess as I see it, you are encouraging everyone to mine smaller amounts, afk longer, and know they can survive a small gank attempt with a passive tank? at least hi-sec miners can go back to afk-mining in their tanks! Yay! You're bringing back the botters almost!
And in the end, at least something is done for the most shafted backbone of EVE Online.
Now alls we need is a new hidden belt to spawn up in 0.0 systems that are sov level 4 or 5 that are slam packed with dense veldspar and Massive Scordite as far as the eye can load.
AAAAaaaaand as long as my hulks can tank about the same hits from npc spawns, I'll be happy, I don't want to warp my guys out just cause one or two rats aggros them.
Holy Christ, the whining.
You know what you get to replace your cargo-maxed tissue-paper Hulk that could be ganked by a rookie frig?
You get a Retriever that can hold an entire jetcan full of ore, has a big enough cargo bay to carry two full sets of T2 crystals for every hisec ore you'd probably ever encounter, get yield within shouting distance of a Hulk (with 3 MLU's in the lows), and do it all for 20 million ISK or so. (EDIT: You also get a respectable amount of EHP.) Or you can spend more on a Mackinaw, and gain a pimpmobile hisec mining machine.
And yet you're complaining. |
Zeruma
Krannon of Sherwood Carthage Empires
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 01:44:00 -
[386] - Quote
I really love the new retriever/mack, its stupid easy to mine forever now |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 03:08:00 -
[387] - Quote
Uthgaard wrote:One needs to consider the point at which a change goes from tuning and balance, and crosses over into the realm of different design. The amount of tank on a barge has typically been an irrelevant factor in the decision to steal a ship's ore. In particular this is less of a factor when the ship is no longer capable of holding more than a single cycle. Simply put, no one attacks a barge for isk. While the decision to reduce the tank available on certain ships may have been made with certain intended results, the consequences of that decision have not been carefully evaluated. Barges are now being suicide ganked in high sec for no purpose other than their destruction, since the cost of doing so has been reduced to the point of triviality. As I said initially, this becomes a design change when the allure of mining in high sec (low, steady, relatively low risk income) is altered to the extent that an individual who had invested in the skills to pursue that goal based on those factors will regret that decision, and newcomers with that goal in mind would not choose to mine. There is never any shortage of trolls who prefer to prance around ivory towers with holier-than-thou mocking tones, telling individuals the idealistic 'shoulds'. They should expect this, they should do that. However fine these statements sound while being trumpeted out of the ivory towers, they are limited to theory. In practice, this will lead to the abandonment of mining as a profession by many who were hit by the unforeseen consequences of the balancing (that was an effective role redesign); and the lack of new miners entering the mining profession. Ultimately this will have a butterfly effect and result in a dramatic increase in ore prices, and the cancellation of accounts of those who are now skeptical of investing considerable time and money into future goals in EVE. While an interesting point of view, you're acting as though the hulk is the only mining barge and there are no alternatives.
Im not going to tell you what you should do, but einstein defined insanity as trying the same thing over and over again expecting different results |
Tao Shaile
Vault205 Holding NanoTex NCore Legion
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 04:54:00 -
[388] - Quote
I don't like the changes at all.
I thought there where too much mining barges already in game with different approaches to use them (3 beginner barges, Highsec mining (Hulk), Ice mining (Mac), deep space mining (Skiff))
Now soon we get some more mining barges.CCP I think is working on them. I have no idea there will be 1, 2 or 3 different models and I have no idea they have other or smilar mining roles we already got with the existing barges. I am afraid this will not be the case but it just adds to the mining barge mess.
Instead I would have liked to see:
Mining barge 1, mining barge 2, mining barge 3
#1 is for beginners #2 is for advanced miners basicaly for highsec mining ops #3 is maybe one of the new barges for Highsec mining, team, ice mining, 0sec, deep space mining
With this solution and as far I care you could get the Procurer, Skiff, Retriever and maybe even the Hulk to the junk yard.
Leave the Covetor for beginners (or introduce a smaller version for the new mining barge to come) Take the Mac for advanced miners (Ore & Ice) Get the newly already announce mining ship to come as a replacement for the Hulk
Orca and Rorqual Support:
Orca and Rorqual should both get a boost for team mining ops (cargo, speed) and Rorqual should be allowed in Highsec
I am afraid as far the options are now with the new rebalancing of the barges it will not get my main character back to the game as a subscriber.
Not yet.
Keep trying CCP! We Step On Puppies
The FIRST evecrimes database! Before you hit "accept" to hire someone, check this out: http://www.evecrimes.simworkx.com |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
282
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 05:15:00 -
[389] - Quote
Artemus Dak wrote:Regarding the mining barge changes The millions of isk spent on "cargo optimization rigs" are now useless. Yeah, too bad. Fortunately for me, I actually put shield rigs on my pre-Inferno mining barges and now get even more benefit from them. :) |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
282
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 05:42:00 -
[390] - Quote
I quickly refit a Procurer today and managed to get it to just over 60K HP (according to the in-game fitting window), with a balanced resist profile, cap stable, and without using ASBs (or cap boosters). I used T1 shield rigs and T2 modules - no faction, deadspace, nor officer junk. Not too shabby of a tank, eh? Esp. considering that I opted to leave a survey scanner in the mids.
With regards to productivity, the single ship-bonused Strip Miner I does a bit more than 2,400 m3 (no, I don't have perfect mining skills, implants, nor fleet bonuses), and the ore bay holds 12,000 m3.
Keep in mind, this is the T1 mining barge, not the T2 exhumer. And, formerly, the most useless ship in the game.
Still gankable? Possibly, but certainly not worth losing a Tornado. T1 mining barges don't drop Intact Armor Plates. |
|
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 07:17:00 -
[391] - Quote
Tao Shaile wrote:I don't like the changes at all.
I thought there where too much mining barges already in game with different approaches to use them (3 beginner barges, Highsec mining (Hulk), Ice mining (Mac), deep space mining (Skiff))
Now soon we get some more mining barges.CCP I think is working on them. I have no idea there will be 1, 2 or 3 different models and I have no idea they have other or smilar mining roles we already got with the existing barges. I am afraid this will not be the case but it just adds to the mining barge mess.
Instead I would have liked to see:
Mining barge 1, mining barge 2, mining barge 3
#1 is for beginners #2 is for advanced miners basicaly for highsec mining ops (ore) #3 is maybe one of the new barges for Highsec mining, team, ore & ice mining alike, 0sec, deep space mining
#? One of the new mining barges to come could even be a modular ship type like our T3's. Just make one mining barge and use different modules to let pilots put them together for whatever reason they want to use them. Result: One barge only!
With this solution and as far I care you could get the Procurer, Skiff, Retriever and maybe even the Hulk to the junk yard - or even all of the already existing barges - just give us 3 new barges with one of the next updates!
[rant on] I was playing for a long time and did quit my subscription. I want to see NEW stuff in the game to get back! It gets boring after 2 or 3 years! [rant off]
Orca and Rorqual Support:
Orca and Rorqual should both get a boost for team mining ops (cargo, speed) and Rorqual should be allowed in Highsec
I am afraid as far the options are now with the new rebalancing of the barges it will not get my main character back to the game as a subscriber.
Not yet.
Keep trying CCP, it-¦s looking good afterall! I feel like some of this is Lorem Ipsum, but from what i can tell, you want less options and a clear cut "best" mining barge?
May I ask why?
Or may I suggest one of several other MMOs where you dont have to make hard choices? |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
66
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 12:45:00 -
[392] - Quote
Tao Shaile wrote:I don't like the changes at all.
I thought there where too much mining barges already in game with different approaches to use them (3 beginner barges, Highsec mining (Hulk), Ice mining (Mac), deep space mining (Skiff)) Wait, what??? You mean I wasn't supposed to be using my hulk in 0.0? The (old) skiff was meant for mercox, which, while only found in 0.0, does not mean the skiff was *the* 0.0 answer. Had you said hulk=volume, mac=ice, and skiff=mercox, then you'd be more to the mark.
Quote:Now soon we get some more mining barges.CCP I think is working on them. Where did you hear this? I've only seen the new ORE frigate.
Quote:Mining barge 1, mining barge 2, mining barge 3
#1 is for beginners #2 is for advanced miners basicaly for highsec mining ops (ore) #3 is maybe one of the new barges for Highsec mining, team, ore & ice mining alike, 0sec, deep space mining Or how about just listening to what the carebears have been asking for... a more gank-resistant tank and leaving the rest well-enough alone?
Quote:#? One of the new mining barges to come could even be a modular ship type like our T3's. Just make one mining barge and use different modules to let pilots put them together for whatever reason they want to use them. Result: One barge only! Oh dear god no.
Quote:[rant on] I was playing for a long time and did quit my subscription. I want to see NEW stuff in the game to get back! It gets boring after 2 or 3 years! [rant off] I've been here non-stop for something like eight now. Yeah, I did take a month's vacation here and there (like when IRON really went ka-blooey shortly after the german defection in Pure Blind). I'm nowhere near as rich as a lot of other folks my age. But I just like blasting rocks in the occasional hour or two between dinner and sleep that isn't filled with RL headaches.
|
Justin Thyme
Militek Industries Exotic Matter Coalition
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 14:15:00 -
[393] - Quote
Atum wrote: I'm nowhere near as rich as a lot of other folks my age. But I just like blasting rocks in the occasional hour or two between dinner and sleep that isn't filled with RL headaches.
That says it all for me sometimes. Mining is a zen moment. Paying attention to all around you but calming as well.
"Hunting rats is like mining for scrap metal... and occasionally striking gold"-á I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thiev...-- Justin Thyme |
Ordo Serran
Federal Industries LLC
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:33:00 -
[394] - Quote
I'm slowly getting used to the new ships/bonuses... It isn't too bad overall, since I can now employ all the ships I've bought in some role or another. There are two things I'm not happy about though. 1) Rigs are permanent. We've rigged our barges/exhumers to fit their previous roles. Those roles have now been completely changed/stripped. ESPECIALLY if we've rigged some cargo expanders. Those are now just about useless. 2) Having the choice to augment tank vs. mining output vs. ore capacity is now only tank vs. mining output. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make some modules/rigs that can augment the Ore hold. It is silly to not allow the option to increase the ore bay. Make an Expanded Ore Hold module, and Ore Hold Expander rigs PLEASE! |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
420
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:35:00 -
[395] - Quote
Ordo Serran wrote:I'm slowly getting used to the new ships/bonuses... It isn't too bad overall, since I can now employ all the ships I've bought in some role or another. There are two things I'm not happy about though. 1) Rigs are permanent. We've rigged our barges/exhumers to fit their previous roles. Those roles have now been completely changed/stripped. ESPECIALLY if we've rigged some cargo expanders. Those are now just about useless. 2) Having the choice to augment tank vs. mining output vs. ore capacity is now only tank vs. mining output. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make some modules/rigs that can augment the Ore hold. It is silly to not allow the option to increase the ore bay. Make an Expanded Ore Hold module, and Ore Hold Expander rigs PLEASE!
1) that's what you get for having a silly fit to begin with. 2) lets make rigs that make the mackinaw useless! how about no. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
67
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:39:00 -
[396] - Quote
Ordo Serran wrote:PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make some modules/rigs that can augment the Ore hold. It is silly to not allow the option to increase the ore bay. Make an Expanded Ore Hold module, and Ore Hold Expander rigs PLEASE! No. As long as the hulk can fit one full cycle (with a hair of overhead) when the pilot is being boosted by a fully chipped, leadership trained, level 5 rorq pilot, and has every module, rig, and chip possible in their own head as well (including the Michi), there's no reason to increase the hulk's ore bay. Cargo, yes (see previous arguments re crystals), but not ore. |
Jane Dough
Jane's Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 16:54:00 -
[397] - Quote
Atum wrote:Ordo Serran wrote:PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make some modules/rigs that can augment the Ore hold. It is silly to not allow the option to increase the ore bay. Make an Expanded Ore Hold module, and Ore Hold Expander rigs PLEASE! No. As long as the hulk can fit one full cycle (with a hair of overhead) when the pilot is being boosted by a fully chipped, leadership trained, level 5 rorq pilot, and has every module, rig, and chip possible in their own head as well (including the Michi), there's no reason to increase the hulk's ore bay. Cargo, yes (see previous arguments re crystals), but not ore.
Not if your play style is as a solo miner. The cut to the ore holds means the Hulk is not supposed to haul anything. Well, for a solo miner, that pretty much screws you over. |
Solomon Cross
CTEC LLC
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 17:17:00 -
[398] - Quote
Jane Dough wrote:Not if your play style is as a solo miner. The cut to the ore holds means the Hulk is not supposed to haul anything. Well, for a solo miner, that pretty much screws you over.
That is what the Mack is for now. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
124
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 17:18:00 -
[399] - Quote
Atum wrote:Ordo Serran wrote:PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make some modules/rigs that can augment the Ore hold. It is silly to not allow the option to increase the ore bay. Make an Expanded Ore Hold module, and Ore Hold Expander rigs PLEASE! No. As long as the hulk can fit one full cycle (with a hair of overhead) when the pilot is being boosted by a fully chipped, leadership trained, level 5 rorq pilot, and has every module, rig, and chip possible in their own head as well (including the Michi), there's no reason to increase the hulk's ore bay. Cargo, yes (see previous arguments re crystals), but not ore. While mining is relaxing for some and boring for others, expanded Ore Hold modules do NOT need to be added / created.
Use a Mack if you want a large, AFK(ish), Ore Hold.
I do have to agree though that being able to fit 2 full cycles in your Ore hold adds to the playability and usability of the ship without breaking anything (oh, wait, (/on sarcasm), you can be afk an extra 2 minutes (/off sarcasm)).
You can not AFK or Solo with a 2 cycle Ore hold. The people that are using Hulks now are in fleets, likely multiboxing, and having a 2 cycle Ore hold would only make fleet management & logistics somewhat easier.
More cargo, I've lobbied for in other threads - but CCP doesn't listen to feedback, so it was pointless blabbering. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 17:44:00 -
[400] - Quote
Rigs are cheap, if you have to toss them for new rigs, hit a rock for a few cycles and its paid for. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
|
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
67
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 18:00:00 -
[401] - Quote
Jane Dough wrote:Not if your play style is as a solo miner. The cut to the ore holds means the Hulk is not supposed to haul anything. Well, for a solo miner, that pretty much screws you over. The hulk was never a hauler to begin with, and I don't see how having a single-cycle ore hold changes things versus the previous not quite two-cycle cargo hold. It also doesn't screw solo miners in the least, because if you weren't jet-canning, multi-boxing, or working with corp/alliance mates previously, you were already gimping your output so badly that I'd have to question your mining credentials.
Either that, or you're a high-sec whinebear. |
Jane Dough
Jane's Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 19:08:00 -
[402] - Quote
Atum wrote:Jane Dough wrote:Not if your play style is as a solo miner. The cut to the ore holds means the Hulk is not supposed to haul anything. Well, for a solo miner, that pretty much screws you over. The hulk was never a hauler to begin with, and I don't see how having a single-cycle ore hold changes things versus the previous not quite two-cycle cargo hold. It also doesn't screw solo miners in the least, because if you weren't jet-canning, multi-boxing, or working with corp/alliance mates previously, you were already gimping your output so badly that I'd have to question your mining credentials. Either that, or you're a high-sec whinebear.
Well! I guess you just put me in my place! Obviously, since I don't play this game the way you do, or the way you approve of, I am deserving of scorn and ridicule. Do you feel superior now? Make you little wee-wee hard? Glad I could give you a thrill, moron. I'm not going to teach you math, I haven't the time, inclination, or patience... and it annoys the pig! Oh, and who the flock are you to question ANYTHING? Got a pretty in inflated opinion of yourself there, don't ya studly? Put it back in your pants, jagoff, I ain't impressed.
|
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
421
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 19:34:00 -
[403] - Quote
given ship with 35k ore hold, still crying over hulk's cargo rigs.
stay classy, guys. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
67
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 20:01:00 -
[404] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:given ship with 35k ore hold, still crying over hulk's cargo rigs.
stay classy, guys. I dunno... based on Jane's last outburst, you'd think I was secretly having the Mittani's love child or something About the only love I really think the revamped hulk (and all these ships, for that matter) needs is a slightly larger standard cargo hold to carry crystals (issues of multiple types and haulers keeping track of who owns which being beaten to death already), and maybe cap charges if ASB's become the preferred method for tanking them. Granted, a heavier tank would be nice, but all the 0.0 miners I know multi-box , work with friends, or both, so protection from rats is never an issue, and every alliance has some sort of active intel to let folks know of incoming hostiles, even if it's just someone in a ratting carrier being forced to cloak up and report that ten reds just went through system X without being able to provide any further detail.
I'm still not sold on these changes as a whole. Having the T2 exhumers specialized for purpose (volume/ice/mercox) rather than play style (fleet/afk/solo, by my reckoning) better matched how other T2 boats worked, and that early theorists seem to be able to approach hulk-like production with non-hulk ships irks me, but I'm not seeing the complete end of the world that others are screaming about. Hopefully EFT will get updated soon so I can do some theory-crafting of my own and compare before/after numbers. |
Smarcus Smokus
Donkey Punch Pioneers Sticky Green Acres
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 20:21:00 -
[405] - Quote
Jane Dough wrote: Not if your play style is as a solo miner. The cut to the ore holds means the Hulk is not supposed to haul anything. Well, for a solo miner, that pretty much screws you over.
What exactly are you complaining about?
If you want to mine solo and fly back and forth to station constantly, fly a hulk.
If you want to mine solo and stay in the belts along time, fly a mackinaw.
If you want to mine solo and never die, fly a skiff. |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
421
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 20:41:00 -
[406] - Quote
Atum wrote:Dave stark wrote:given ship with 35k ore hold, still crying over hulk's cargo rigs.
stay classy, guys. I dunno... based on Jane's last outburst, you'd think I was secretly having the Mittani's love child or something About the only love I really think the revamped hulk (and all these ships, for that matter) needs is a slightly larger standard cargo hold to carry crystals (issues of multiple types and haulers keeping track of who owns which being beaten to death already), and maybe cap charges if ASB's become the preferred method for tanking them. Granted, a heavier tank would be nice, but all the 0.0 miners I know multi-box , work with friends, or both, so protection from rats is never an issue, and every alliance has some sort of active intel to let folks know of incoming hostiles, even if it's just someone in a ratting carrier being forced to cloak up and report that ten reds just went through system X without being able to provide any further detail. I'm still not sold on these changes as a whole. Having the T2 exhumers specialized for purpose (volume/ice/mercox) rather than play style (fleet/afk/solo, by my reckoning) better matched how other T2 boats worked, and that early theorists seem to be able to approach hulk-like production with non-hulk ships irks me, but I'm not seeing the complete end of the world that others are screaming about. Hopefully EFT will get updated soon so I can do some theory-crafting of my own and compare before/after numbers.
to be honest i like the changes, aside from the crystal change with i don't think any one has said they like, welcome, or find enjoyable. a lot of arguments were put forth as to why it wasn't "bad" but there's absolutely nothing good about the situation.
i don't think it's a bad thing that all the exhumers have similar yield, it provides viable options rather than "the skiff is ******* useless other than one asteroid that would be hated as much as spod if morphite prices fall any lower" and "oh look, ice". no changes were ever going to be perfect but when all is said and done these changes are a lot better than what could have happened. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
67
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 20:53:00 -
[407] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:i don't think it's a bad thing that all the exhumers have similar yield, it provides viable options rather than "the skiff is ******* useless other than one asteroid that would be hated as much as spod if morphite prices fall any lower" and "oh look, ice". Except it goes against the dev statement that the hulk was supposed to be the "king" of mining. I don't mind flying a glass cannon (and neither does anybody else using tier 3 BC's), but at least make it worth the risk... right now, there doesn't seem to be much point in flying a hulk anywhere, given that the mack can truck a lot more ore, and the skiff can just sit there and buffer tank (assuming the appropriate logistics is within a titan bridge or two), for what looks to be a relatively minor loss in ore volume.
Quote:but when all is said and done these changes are a lot better than what could have happened. QFT |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
421
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 21:08:00 -
[408] - Quote
Atum wrote:Dave stark wrote:i don't think it's a bad thing that all the exhumers have similar yield, it provides viable options rather than "the skiff is ******* useless other than one asteroid that would be hated as much as spod if morphite prices fall any lower" and "oh look, ice". Except it goes against the dev statement that the hulk was supposed to be the "king" of mining. I don't mind flying a glass cannon (and neither does anybody else using tier 3 BC's), but at least make it worth the risk... right now, there doesn't seem to be much point in flying a hulk anywhere, given that the mack can truck a lot more ore, and the skiff can just sit there and buffer tank (assuming the appropriate logistics is within a titan bridge or two), for what looks to be a relatively minor loss in ore volume. Quote:but when all is said and done these changes are a lot better than what could have happened. QFT
well if you think of it from a pure yield perspective, the hulk is still king, nothing will bring in more m3/time, however the other barges have perks beyond crunching rocks, they are able to move it to the station more efficiently, or stand up to rats/gankers better etc. there are just new crowns to be handed out. although i must say with the mackinaw having more ehp and cargo it's yield being awfully close to the hulk's then i guess it's a strong contender for the hulk's crown. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
67
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 22:22:00 -
[409] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:well if you think of it from a pure yield perspective, the hulk is still king, nothing will bring in more m3/time, however the other barges have perks beyond crunching rocks, they are able to move it to the station more efficiently, or stand up to rats/gankers better etc. there are just new crowns to be handed out. although i must say with the mackinaw having more ehp and cargo it's yield being awfully close to the hulk's then i guess it's a strong contender for the hulk's crown. Assuming CCP Tallest has made all the changes to the dev blog that were promised, and running off the rorq bonus list, the hulk has a roughly 1.16x advantage over the mack, but the mack has 1.33x the EHP and over 4x cargo. Against the skiff, it becomes 1.26x mining, but 3.34x EHP and 1.76x cargo. There's the rub... if I'm flying a hulk, a 16% mining boost against a ship that can sit there 4x longer (6x according to the blog, but....) doesn't seem to be a very good trade-off. In fact, the additional cargo space (aka crystals!) really makes you question the hulk's viability. Looking at ice instead of ore, six cubes per hour is likewise a pretty lousy trade-off, and as you move into lesser-boosted conditions, it gets worse for the hulk (just going to orca boosting costs a cube every hour).
In short, if the hulk is meant to be "king of mining," at the cost of autonomy and survivability, its output compared to the others just doesn't make sense. In fact, you could easily make the argument that you'd be better off flying a covetor (which still outperforms the mack) and forgo the T2 cost differential entirely. |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
422
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 22:48:00 -
[410] - Quote
******* ****** forum eating my post. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
remiust
Shadowyn Corp.
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 22:57:00 -
[411] - Quote
Atum wrote:Dave stark wrote:well if you think of it from a pure yield perspective, the hulk is still king, nothing will bring in more m3/time, however the other barges have perks beyond crunching rocks, they are able to move it to the station more efficiently, or stand up to rats/gankers better etc. there are just new crowns to be handed out. although i must say with the mackinaw having more ehp and cargo it's yield being awfully close to the hulk's then i guess it's a strong contender for the hulk's crown. Assuming CCP Tallest has made all the changes to the dev blog that were promised, and running off the rorq bonus list, the hulk has a roughly 1.16x advantage over the mack, but the mack has 1.33x the EHP and over 4x cargo. Against the skiff, it becomes 1.26x mining, but 3.34x EHP and 1.76x cargo. There's the rub... if I'm flying a hulk, a 16% mining boost against a ship that can sit there 4x longer (6x according to the blog, but....) doesn't seem to be a very good trade-off. In fact, the additional cargo space (aka crystals!) really makes you question the hulk's viability. Looking at ice instead of ore, six cubes per hour is likewise a pretty lousy trade-off, and as you move into lesser-boosted conditions, it gets worse for the hulk (just going to orca boosting costs a cube every hour). In short, if the hulk is meant to be "king of mining," at the cost of autonomy and survivability, its output compared to the others just doesn't make sense. In fact, you could easily make the argument that you'd be better off flying a covetor (which still outperforms the mack) and forgo the T2 cost differential entirely.
This may have been mentioned already , but just to be sure those roq/orca bonus lists for ore yield, assume you have both the highwall-2 and michis implants. Last i checked the michis, still goes for around a bil. Without the implants the yeilds are closer. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
69
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 00:49:00 -
[412] - Quote
remiust wrote:This may have been mentioned already , but just to be sure those roq/orca bonus lists for ore yield, assume you have both the highwall-2 and michis implants. Last i checked the michis, still goes for around a bil. Without the implants the yeilds are closer. If I read CCP Tallest's comments correctly, the ore/ice/mercox output tables in the dev blog reflect every booster possible being applied (Fleet boosted by a Rorqual 5 pilot with mining foreman 5, mining director 5, mining foreman mindlink, and warfare link specialist 5, then the barge/exhumer pilot having mining 5, Highwall MU-1005, Michi's augmentor, tech 2 crystals, the whole shebang). The more boosts you take away from there, the worse the hulk becomes in relation to the other ships :( |
Tainted Greek
House Of Hades Female Breast Inspectors
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 01:58:00 -
[413] - Quote
Where to start?... First IGÇÖd like to thank those who focused only on my comment that EVE was a sandboxGǪ and should be left aloneGǪ WOW you guys set me straight with your own perverted views on what itGÇÖs definition is! People will always perceive things how they want to suit themselvesGǪ it proves it when people reject definitions from dictionaryGÇÖs, encyclopedias etc and substitute it for their own.
Secondly to all those articulate trolls and those who are can sell ice to eskimoGÇÖs with your sugar coated BULL SHI* GǪ Thanks! It really helps me swallow it and feel better about being fu*ked overGǪ
My argument has not changed GǪ
It made perfect sense before the changesGǪ The Hulk was kingGǪ it was the biggest and could do everything wellGǪ with the long training invested, it provided a logical autonomous or fleet solution for the miner. You had options (limited) as to how you fit it to suit your gameplay. That should not have changed! The buffs should have been in line with the lesser barges.
With the changes as it is now, it is not a viable option GǪ you have devalued and essentially made useless/obsolete to the majority of miners their flagship!
Sure you have given us a cheap and viable alternative,(no one including myself is going to ***** about that) but it makes as much sense as it wouldGÇÖve to just strap a strip miner to a haulerGǪand it would have been more believable.
Why the hell didnGÇÖt the DEV team simply balance things in a balanced manner?!!!
They could have given balanced incremental bonusGÇÖs to all the barges that were for the most part uselessGǪ The redefining of ship roles could have been the introduction of T3 EXHUMERS that specialised in a skill path and provided the option of a narrowing and specializing in types/classes of mining.
IGÇÖll say it againGǪ Your so called REBALANCING is fundamentally flawed! The way it has been done is the problem. It remains a crock of shite and it stinketh.
Just keep dumbing the game down, making changes that belong in a realm of fantasy and magic and more and more veterans will leave, fed up with the sugar coated BULL SHITE
WhatGÇÖs done is doneGǪ thanks to everyone for their GÇ£helpGÇ¥ but I donGÇÖt have to like it. If I wanted to play pure fantasy I would be playing some other game all this time....
|
Andy Landen
Born Crazy Kadeshians
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 02:02:00 -
[414] - Quote
Well done CCP. Not a miner, but the changes look good to me anyway. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
282
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 04:35:00 -
[415] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Well done CCP. Not a miner, but the changes look good to me anyway. I think this sums things up rather nicely.
If you are NOT a miner, the changes look good. But, if you ARE a miner, then, perhaps, not so good, eh? :) |
Spice Flow
Spice Industrys
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 05:53:00 -
[416] - Quote
Qual wrote:Matthew Toomb wrote:Can you guys please think this through just a little bit before you finalize? Those of us noobie idiots who've spent months training for Hulks only to have them downgraded to a piddly craptastic support miner- I assume we'll be ISKompensated for the hundreds of millions of $$ we've spent on our soon to be useless ships correct?
Oh, and will this "uber" retriever at least get a third strip slot? Or just a bloated cargobay?
Glad I manufacture retrievers with an original BPO though, the price is about to go WAY up. You want some cheese with that whine? Seriously, did you even read the numbers in the blog? All your questions is answered in there. Hulk is still the king of mining yield, its just not as thick skinned as it used to be. And the lower tiers get some love as well. Those getting hit the hardest are the Macinaw ice miners, as thier ship is no longer king of its former profession.
Well if they are unable to give my hulk back to its former glory, maybe they can give me the time in my life back that was spent to get the game play I liked to play. |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 06:58:00 -
[417] - Quote
Atum wrote:Dave stark wrote:well if you think of it from a pure yield perspective, the hulk is still king, nothing will bring in more m3/time, however the other barges have perks beyond crunching rocks, they are able to move it to the station more efficiently, or stand up to rats/gankers better etc. there are just new crowns to be handed out. although i must say with the mackinaw having more ehp and cargo it's yield being awfully close to the hulk's then i guess it's a strong contender for the hulk's crown. Assuming CCP Tallest has made all the changes to the dev blog that were promised, and running off the rorq bonus list, the hulk has a roughly 1.16x advantage over the mack, but the mack has 1.33x the EHP and over 4x cargo. Against the skiff, it becomes 1.26x mining, but 3.34x EHP and 1.76x cargo. There's the rub... if I'm flying a hulk, a 16% mining boost against a ship that can sit there 4x longer (6x according to the blog, but....) doesn't seem to be a very good trade-off. In fact, the additional cargo space (aka crystals!) really makes you question the hulk's viability. Looking at ice instead of ore, six cubes per hour is likewise a pretty lousy trade-off, and as you move into lesser-boosted conditions, it gets worse for the hulk (just going to orca boosting costs a cube every hour). In short, if the hulk is meant to be "king of mining," at the cost of autonomy and survivability, its output compared to the others just doesn't make sense. In fact, you could easily make the argument that you'd be better off flying a covetor (which still outperforms the mack) and forgo the T2 cost differential entirely.
Here is the main problem that I have with the rebalance, that Any of the T1 Barges can out mine Any of the T2 Exhumers. The ore m3 per hour should be in the progression
Most m3/hr Hulk Mackinaw Skiff Covetor Retriever Procurer Least m3/hr
The EHP and Ore Holds are otherwise fairly Balanced.
The Next Problem I have is that the Cargo Holds are all of different Sizes, I don't believe that this should be different for each ship, if anything the Cargo Holds should be reversed in size the Skiff and the Procurer with the Smallest, the Mackinaw and the Retriever with the middle and the Covetor and Hulk with the Largest, as you have 1 Strip, 2 Strips and then 3 Strips, It is natural for the Larger Ships to have to carry more Crystals because they have more Strips. I think around 350 450 and 550 would probably be in the right ball park. |
Andrew Indy
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 07:50:00 -
[418] - Quote
To all the people who keep on saying the Hulk is no longer any good, stop complaining and just get a Mack or Skiff. If 16% less yield is really such a tiny amount then switch to a ship that can carry almost 2X more ore than a Hulk ever could or can tank like a BS. This should be a welcome change if that's the case.
That being said 16% is not a small amount of extra mining yield, people pay millions if not billions to buy implants to get less than that.
You might be able to compare this to the Incursion nerf a few months ago.
Before the nerf the Legion was the king of VGs, now it makes up maybe 50% of a fleets DPS if you are lucky. Does it really matter, not really, people adapted, bought new ships and every thing returned to the status quo (less all of the people who only ran incs for bulk Isk)
PS, I mine 3 hours per day everyday (15 ours on weekends), though I shall admit its mostly in HS. |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
427
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 07:58:00 -
[419] - Quote
Andrew Indy wrote:That being said 16% is not a small amount of extra mining yield, people pay millions if not billions to buy implants to get less than that.
this, michi is close to a billion apparently, i dropped a billion for the mining foreman mindlink, that's 2bn on implants that give a total bonus of just over 10%, and yet you can get a hulk which gives you a 16% increase for a quarter of that?
the hulk is worth every isk. not to mention in the context of 16% of an hour, that's about 9 mins per hour if my maths is right, if you're spending more than 9 mins per hour swapping to an impel (which has more cargo space than a mackinaw) then you're doing something wrong. the hulk will still outmine the mackinaw solo if you just spend a bit of time training amarr industrial to V, infact the smallest DST has 29k without using t2 rigs, and that's the mastodon.
the simple fact is, the hulk is still a very strong ship, crystals aside. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:02:00 -
[420] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote:The Next Problem I have is that the Cargo Holds are all of different Sizes, I don't believe that this should be different for each ship, if anything the Cargo Holds should be reversed in size the Skiff and the Procurer with the Smallest, the Mackinaw and the Retriever with the middle and the Covetor and Hulk with the Largest, as you have 1 Strip, 2 Strips and then 3 Strips, It is natural for the Larger Ships to have to carry more Crystals because they have more Strips. I think around 350 450 and 550 would probably be in the right ball park. This would be totally correct not taking into account the intended roles of the ships, but knowing that the role of the mackinaw is to be the king of autonomy, I would say it could use a slightly bigger cargo hold, IMHO change the 1% mining bonus to a 10% cargo bonus and youre good.
That being said, I believe the skiff could use a little nerf to its cargo hold something like 200 m^3 base and the hulk can probably stay where it is, with the ability to fit 12 crystals (4 changes of ore + 1 in the miners to begin with) seems right to me, thats 1/3 of the types of ore in the game, and most large scale 0.0 mining operations have the miners organized so thats all they'll need for quite a while. |
|
Lazaro Lazarides
1st Airborne Division
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:09:00 -
[421] - Quote
I would like to discuss a few things
Firs: I think you have destroyed the industry of the cargohold optimizations tec 2 because now only the transport ships will be rig this type of rigs. And the people that have it (like me) in the macki only for can do 2 cycles of mining now we have the amazing capacity of cargohold of 621 m3 and I spent only 100 M for this.......I think they should allow to remove the rigs from the mining ships OR change they affect to the ore hold too. And the second comment is for the ore hold of hulk ONLY 8500!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the skiff have 15000!!!!!!!!! or mackinaw 35000!!!! (with the skills at 5) Thats was te worst change of the new patch. Before you can have whit the EX cargohold more than 17000 m3 and now.... you can only mining wiht orca. The diference between hulk and skiff is negligible and the people will be prefere to use skiff becaus they only mining a litle less but the have a lot of ore hold.
I would like to propose
Introduce the change that the rigs of cargohold optimization will affect the ore hold OR Introduce in the orca the same skill that have the macki Mining Barge skill bonus per level: 5% bonus to ore hold capacity
And reduce the cargohold ore of the skiff
The last change i would allow remove all rigs of the mining ships
Thx for all
PD: Ore hold optimizations rigs??? not bad idea |
Lazaro Lazarides
1st Airborne Division
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:12:00 -
[422] - Quote
Ore hold optimizations rigs??? not bad idea |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
427
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:13:00 -
[423] - Quote
Lazaro Lazarides wrote:Ore hold optimizations rigs??? not bad idea
terrible idea. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:16:00 -
[424] - Quote
Tainted Greek wrote:Where to start?... First IGÇÖd like to thank those who focused only on my comment that EVE was a sandboxGǪ and should be left aloneGǪ WOW you guys set me straight with your own perverted views on what itGÇÖs definition is! People will always perceive things how they want to suit themselvesGǪ it proves it when people reject definitions from dictionaryGÇÖs, encyclopedias etc and substitute it for their own.
Could you then please define what YOU think a sandbox is? because a careful reading of your last [strike]whine[/strike] post seemed to say that a sandbox game should allow you to do whatever you want to do, and that the game developers should not give you any nuance about what you're "supposed to do"
If this is true, could you please give me an example of what you think a "sandbox game" is? and really how do you think the game should resolve a situation where two different people want to do opposite things?
(note the page you linked says "considerable freedom" not "total freedom") Who's definition of a sandbox game is perverted?
Tainted Greek wrote:My argument has not changed GǪ
It made perfect sense before the changesGǪ The Hulk was kingGǪ it was the biggest and could do everything wellGǪ with the long training invested, it provided a logical autonomous or fleet solution for the miner. You had options (limited) as to how you fit it to suit your gameplay. That should not have changed! The buffs should have been in line with the lesser barges. so you want to not have to make any decisions about what ship to mine in, you just want there to be one obvious best choice and to be able to mindlessly pick that one?
Like how in PvP there is always an obvious best choice? You know before this change, when people asked "whats the best mining ship" everyone always said "the Hulk" now people say "it depends" you have to make a choice, and as Sid Meier once said "A game is a series of interesting choices."
Tainted Greek wrote:Why the hell didnGÇÖt the DEV team simply balance things in a balanced manner?!!!
They could have given balanced incremental bonusGÇÖs to all the barges that were for the most part uselessGǪ The redefining of ship roles could have been the introduction of T3 EXHUMERS that specialised in a skill path and provided the option of a narrowing and specializing in types/classes of mining. T3 has always been about generalizing not specializing, in fact, specializing has always been relegated to T2
The devs did balance things, before there was one obviously "best" choice and now there are three depending on your play style, thats balance
Tainted Greek wrote:Just keep dumbing the game down, making changes that belong in a realm of fantasy and magic and more and more veterans will leave, fed up with the sugar coated BULL SHITE
WhatGÇÖs done is doneGǪ thanks to everyone for their GÇ£helpGÇ¥ but I donGÇÖt have to like it. If I wanted to play pure fantasy I would be playing some other game all this time....
How is giving someone MORE interesting choices to make dumbing down the game? it sounds to me like you're the one who wanted to keep the game dumbed down with a single best ship
Also Im not sure why you think any of these games are to be relegated to the "fantasy world" but im assuming your going on an incoherent rage rant by now, so no harm done. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:26:00 -
[425] - Quote
Lazaro Lazarides wrote:I would like to discuss a few things
Firs: I think you have destroyed the industry of the cargohold optimizations tec 2 because now only the transport ships will be rig this type of rigs. And the people that have it (like me) in the macki only for can do 2 cycles of mining now we have the amazing capacity of cargohold of 621 m3 and I spent only 100 M for this.......I think they should allow to remove the rigs from the mining ships OR change they affect to the ore hold too.
ummm . . . medium cargohold optimization rigs are 6.2 million in Jita, even large rigs (if you bought them before the change) are 30.3 million . . . Im sorry if you rigged your ship > 2 years ago, but I feel like youve gotten enough use out of them to justify their cost, and now you can fit almost every crystal in the game in your cargohold.
Lazaro Lazarides wrote:And the second comment is for the ore hold of hulk ONLY 8500!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the skiff have 15000!!!!!!!!! or mackinaw 35000!!!! (with the skills at 5) Thats was te worst change of the new patch. Before you can have whit the EX cargohold more than 17000 m3 and now.... you can only mining wiht orca. The diference between hulk and skiff is negligible and the people will be prefere to use skiff becaus they only mining a litle less but the have a lot of ore hold.
Well the point was to make the hulk a fleet ship, and as Dave stark pointed out earlier, the extra 16% you get for using the hulk over the mackinaw is 9 minutes 36 seconds per hour. If you spend more than that hauling the ore you mined in that hour you're probably doing something wrong, so the hulk is still the premiere miner even solo.
That being said, if 16% isnt enough for you, perhaps you should look at what some people do to get a 5% advantage . . .
again as dave stark pointed out, a Michi's Excavation Augmentor gives a 5% bonus and its totally sold out in Jita with a buy order for 500 million . . . |
Lazaro Lazarides
1st Airborne Division
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:41:00 -
[426] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Lazaro Lazarides wrote:I would like to discuss a few things
Firs: I think you have destroyed the industry of the cargohold optimizations tec 2 because now only the transport ships will be rig this type of rigs. And the people that have it (like me) in the macki only for can do 2 cycles of mining now we have the amazing capacity of cargohold of 621 m3 and I spent only 100 M for this.......I think they should allow to remove the rigs from the mining ships OR change they affect to the ore hold too. ummm . . . medium cargohold optimization rigs are 6.2 million in Jita, even large rigs (if you bought them before the change) are 30.3 million . . . Im sorry if you rigged your ship > 2 years ago, but I feel like youve gotten enough use out of them to justify their cost, and now you can fit almost every crystal in the game in your cargohold. Lazaro Lazarides wrote:And the second comment is for the ore hold of hulk ONLY 8500!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the skiff have 15000!!!!!!!!! or mackinaw 35000!!!! (with the skills at 5) Thats was te worst change of the new patch. Before you can have whit the EX cargohold more than 17000 m3 and now.... you can only mining wiht orca. The diference between hulk and skiff is negligible and the people will be prefere to use skiff becaus they only mining a litle less but the have a lot of ore hold. Well the point was to make the hulk a fleet ship, and as Dave stark pointed out earlier, the extra 16% you get for using the hulk over the mackinaw is 9 minutes 36 seconds per hour. If you spend more than that hauling the ore you mined in that hour you're probably doing something wrong, so the hulk is still the premiere miner even solo. That being said, if 16% isnt enough for you, perhaps you should look at what some people do to get a 5% advantage . . . again as dave stark pointed out, a Michi's Excavation Augmentor gives a 5% bonus and its totally sold out in Jita with a buy order for 500 million . . .
I fit the rig tec 2 (80M) two weeks ago :( i know that ther are people that fit it a long time ago, and seeing it from that point of view your right.
I thing Macki for mining ice and afk mining is now the best Hulk is only for fleet mining Skiff is for low sec mining
Now the mining is more .....specialized and the people will use all the ships but now the mining is easier for all. Maby increase the time of skills between the retriever an hulk...
|
Spice Flow
Spice Industrys
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:46:00 -
[427] - Quote
Andrew Indy wrote:To all the people who keep on saying the Hulk is no longer any good, stop complaining and just get a Mack or Skiff. If 16% less yield is really such a tiny amount then switch to a ship that can carry almost 2X more ore than a Hulk ever could or can tank like a BS. This should be a welcome change if that's the case. That being said 16% is not a small amount of extra mining yield, people pay millions if not billions to buy implants to get less than that. You might be able to compare this to the Incursion nerf a few months ago. Before the nerf the Legion was the king of VGs, now it makes up maybe 50% of a fleets DPS if you are lucky. Does it really matter, not really, people adapted, bought new ships and every thing returned to the status quo (less all of the people who only ran incs for bulk Isk) PS, I mine 3 hours per day everyday (15 ours on weekends), though I shall admit its mostly in HS. PPS Quote:Here is the main problem that I have with the rebalance, that Any of the T1 Barges can out mine Any of the T2 Exhumers. The ore m3 per hour should be in the progression What crack are you smoking, the only Barge that can out mine an Exhumer is the Covetor and that has the same limitations that the Hulk has, as it stands the Exhumers are each better than their barge equivalents in every way other than cost.
40,000,000 if you made 40mil a day 14,600,000,000 you would make in one year 2,336,000,000 minus your 16% It would take you 58.4 days to make up the difference ... ThatGÇÖs Massive
And the Hulk should be the best miner with biggest cargo and the best tank then the Covetor, Mackinaw, Retriever and so on down the line... or T2 then T1 |
maniaconpepsi
Mission Ctrl. Mission Control.
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:46:00 -
[428] - Quote
Haya there I would like to inform you that you have neuted the hulk big time one of its benefactors was the large cargo hold it use to have and now it has half the amount please let me know how the hulk has been improved as you advertise as I see its been neuted quite harshly. sorry to be so forward I dont mean to sound rude as I have enjoyed you game for many years just curious why the down grade on the hulk so much. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:51:00 -
[429] - Quote
Spice Flow wrote:And the Hulk should be the best miner with biggest cargo and the best tank then the Covetor, Mackinaw, Retriever and so on down the line... I completely disagree.
Thats the way it was before and it dumbed down the game. There was no choice for which mining barge to mine with, there was an obvious answer to "which mining ship is best"
There should never be an obvious answer to which is the "best" ship. Ask someone which PvP ship is "the best" and theyll tell you it depends, thats how it should be. |
Andrew Indy
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:53:00 -
[430] - Quote
Quote:ummm . . . medium cargohold optimization rigs are 6.2 million in Jita, even large rigs (if you bought them before the change) are 30.3 million . . . Im sorry if you rigged your ship > 2 years ago, but I feel like youve gotten enough use out of them to justify their cost, and now you can fit almost every crystal in the game in your cargohold.
T2 Rigs are pretty pricey (best sell in Jita is 70,545,999.88 ). T1 are about 6Mil.
Quote: Lazaro Lazarides wrote: I would like to discuss a few things
100Mil (140 Mil now ) is only a couple of evenings of mining so it should not be a big deal. If it is a really big deal then maybe you should not have rigged your ship with such expensive rigs because it clear did not pay for itself already.
People PVP in ships worth a lot more than 100Mil everyday (and get popped), at least you used your T2 |
|
Andrew Indy
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:58:00 -
[431] - Quote
Spice Flow wrote:Andrew Indy wrote:
That being said 16% is not a small amount of extra mining yield, people pay millions if not billions to buy implants to get less than that.
40,000,000 if you made 40mil a day 14,600,000,000 you would make in one year 2,336,000,000 minus your 16% It would take you 58.4 days to make up the difference ... ThatGÇÖs Massive
Did you read my post, I said it was a large amount. I was just pointing out that it is. |
Spice Flow
Spice Industrys
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:58:00 -
[432] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Spice Flow wrote:And the Hulk should be the best miner with biggest cargo and the best tank then the Covetor, Mackinaw, Retriever and so on down the line... I completely disagree. Thats the way it was before and it dumbed down the game. There was no choice for which mining barge to mine with, there was an obvious answer to "which mining ship is best" There should never be an obvious answer to which is the "best" ship. Ask someone which PvP ship is "the best" and theyll tell you it depends, thats how it should be.
Then they should make a frigate with a huge tank to fit what you are saying... the smallest ship with the biggest tank |
Spice Flow
Spice Industrys
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 09:01:00 -
[433] - Quote
Andrew Indy wrote:Spice Flow wrote:Andrew Indy wrote:
That being said 16% is not a small amount of extra mining yield, people pay millions if not billions to buy implants to get less than that.
40,000,000 if you made 40mil a day 14,600,000,000 you would make in one year 2,336,000,000 minus your 16% It would take you 58.4 days to make up the difference ... ThatGÇÖs Massive Did you read my post, I said it was a large amount. I was just pointing out that it is.
oh... soz ... i mush have missread you... my apologies sir |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
140
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 09:11:00 -
[434] - Quote
Spice Flow wrote:Sigras wrote:Spice Flow wrote:And the Hulk should be the best miner with biggest cargo and the best tank then the Covetor, Mackinaw, Retriever and so on down the line... I completely disagree. Thats the way it was before and it dumbed down the game. There was no choice for which mining barge to mine with, there was an obvious answer to "which mining ship is best" There should never be an obvious answer to which is the "best" ship. Ask someone which PvP ship is "the best" and theyll tell you it depends, thats how it should be. Then they should make a frigate with a huge tank to fit what you are saying... the smallest ship with the biggest tank well realism aside, the balance of the game is improved with this change
IMHO, they should switch the mack and the skiff in role, so the autonomus miner (skiff) can get by with only one crystal per rock type, and the mack would have the toughest tank as it is quite a bit bigger.
That being said, other ships in eve show that size has nothing to do with tanking ability; compare the devoter or damnation to the tempest
Devoter 136,000 - 159,000 EHP Damnation 270,000 EHP Tempest 134,000 EHP |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 11:08:00 -
[435] - Quote
Andrew Indy wrote:Quote:Here is the main problem that I have with the rebalance, that Any of the T1 Barges can out mine Any of the T2 Exhumers. The ore m3 per hour should be in the progression What crack are you smoking, the only Barge that can out mine an Exhumer is the Covetor and that has the same limitations that the Hulk has, as it stands the Exhumers are each better than their barge equivalents in every way other than cost. Lets see here on the devblog I can see that the Retriever can out mine a Skiff, and the Covetor can out mine the Mackinaw and the Skiff. I can see T1 Barges out mining T2 Exhumers, I didn't say that the T1 Barges were out mining the T2 Exhumer of the same hull. |
Lucy Riraille
Die Grauen Waechter Die Graue Legion
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 12:35:00 -
[436] - Quote
Although there are a lot of very good comments regarding the new "balancing" of mining barges and exhumers, this thread has become a whine thread....
No.1 whining theme: there is a change! This must be bad or a conspiracy against miners
Total BS in my Eyes
No.2 whining theme: the cargohold is too small for zillions of t2 crystals, we will al be drowning in our tears soon....
This is BS too, since the cargohold can be made larger by leaving the cargo rogs in place! The thread from this one guy who lives in nullsec with Germans and Russians complains that nobody will understan him?!? Complete BS! Most German players know at least enough english to tell him which roids are still in the belt and unmined by others. If he likes to, I can gibe him German lessons for mining ops...
I use mining crystals for my mining alts, but my mining crystals do not pop within a couple of minutes, they last a few hours. So, how long were you expecting to mine or are some people just pissed, that they can't makro mine 23h with their crystals??? Some posters offered enough viable solutions and really, when I lived in a WH I ignored every ore except A + B, even Crokite was some sort of "naah, too crappy.... will rather do a sleeper site or a nulsec roaming, it's safer..."
No.3 whining theme: will we get refunds for our cargohold optimization rigs, now that they are useles?
What????? refund???? Why, they still work an they will give those whiners the room needed for their zillion crystals...
BTW, YOU ARE MINERS!!!! If you can't afford a few new sets of rigs on your exhumers, then stop mining and do mission running, it should be more profitable for you and your style of mining....
Of course, naming this action rebalancing is a bit of a joke. The special roles of the exhumers are gone, just to be replaced by different exhumer "styles". Lot of ehp and "poor" mining yield versus lower ehp und excellent mining yield.
However, so far, the game was totally imbalanced regarding the cost of a well fitted and rigged Retriever versus the cost for a ship needed to gank a Retriever. This was an issue that CCP never sorted out in a just way.
Ganking miners that can't shoot back immediately and then jerking off in front of a killboard is kind of poor in my view and not PvP, but PvV, Player versus Victim.
There are so many wonderful possibilities to PvP on this game, that shooting down rather "helpless" mining vessels should be seen as poor and low as someone can get in PvP circles. But no, many people still jerk off because they managed to gank a retriever.... sigh.... BTW, I am not whining, when I get ganked, I swear, and then I activate my next miming vessel. Some poor gankers land on my list and get hunted by my other chars, but hey, that's EVE...
So, what is there in the end?
A new mining system with a totally different approach to mining roles than before. Is it good? Is it bad? We will see.
When I read first of the oncoming changes, I was totally pissed of too, but then I thought again and began to see the new opportunities. Instead of whining, I bought a mackie, just in case I might need it, I then refitted my Hulks and my retrievers and I am still mining and I am still thinking that mining is boring.
One thing no one seems to have considered so far, these giant oreholds are botter's paradise!!!! I can already see Ice fields and belts full of retrievers and mackies, slurping happily afk or via makro.... more orehold, less travel time, more net yield....
With all my sarcasm on, I can say the following: do not makro mine, when Fanfest is near, because the banhammer will hit you, but after Fanfest, CCP will redeem all the botters.... And who will say anything against a mackie or retreiver returning to base everytime theri orehold is full??? It is as much as a can or even more, |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 13:26:00 -
[437] - Quote
I've been mining for awhile since the patch, and overall I'm really liking the changes. In fact, I'm beginning to worry that the Mack/Reg is now overpowered due to the huge ore bays. AFK mining is now even easier. However, the Ret in particular is a boon to solo and small mining corps - better than the Mack in some use cases because it's way cheaper while still being in the ballpark on yield and ore hold. That makes it an ideal candidate for high-risk mining ops and other places where you don't want to risk an expensive ship.
This change is the best thing to happen to mining in a long time.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4457
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 14:02:00 -
[438] - Quote
Lucy Riraille wrote:With all my sarcasm on, I can say the following: do not makro mine, when Fanfest is near, because the banhammer will hit you, but after Fanfest, CCP will redeem all the botters.... And who will say anything against a mackie or retreiver returning to base everytime theri orehold is full??? It is as much as a can or even more,
Maybe....maybe not. But there seems to be some indications that the old free and easy days for botters are now a thing of the past:
http://nosygamer.blogspot.co.uk/ Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
560
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 14:23:00 -
[439] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:I've been mining for awhile since the patch, and overall I'm really liking the changes. In fact, I'm beginning to worry that the Mack/Reg is now overpowered due to the huge ore bays. AFK mining is now even easier. However, the Ret in particular is a boon to solo and small mining corps - better than the Mack in some use cases because it's way cheaper while still being in the ballpark on yield and ore hold. That makes it an ideal candidate for high-risk mining ops and other places where you don't want to risk an expensive ship.
This change is the best thing to happen to mining in a long time.
AFK mining is easier. except that in highsec, the rocks tend not to last that long. (depends on the rock of course)
One of the benefits of mining, say, The Spod FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Andrew Indy
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 15:15:00 -
[440] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote:Andrew Indy wrote:Quote:Here is the main problem that I have with the rebalance, that Any of the T1 Barges can out mine Any of the T2 Exhumers. The ore m3 per hour should be in the progression What crack are you smoking, the only Barge that can out mine an Exhumer is the Covetor and that has the same limitations that the Hulk has, as it stands the Exhumers are each better than their barge equivalents in every way other than cost. Lets see here on the devblog I can see that the Retriever can out mine a Skiff, and the Covetor can out mine the Mackinaw and the Skiff. I can see T1 Barges out mining T2 Exhumers, I didn't say that the T1 Barges were out mining the T2 Exhumer of the same hull.
Please reread your own post, you clearly say that any of the T1 Hulls can out mine any of the T2 Hulls, i call a load of shite.
any way , one could also say the same about almost any of the classes of ships in the game.
A T1 Punisher can out DPS a Malediction or Crusader for example, or say a T1 Arbitrator does the same DPS as a curse. Not sure i would want to 1V1 a Curse with an Arbitrator , would you? |
|
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 16:53:00 -
[441] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Caldari 5 wrote:The Next Problem I have is that the Cargo Holds are all of different Sizes, I don't believe that this should be different for each ship, if anything the Cargo Holds should be reversed in size the Skiff and the Procurer with the Smallest, the Mackinaw and the Retriever with the middle and the Covetor and Hulk with the Largest, as you have 1 Strip, 2 Strips and then 3 Strips, It is natural for the Larger Ships to have to carry more Crystals because they have more Strips. I think around 350 450 and 550 would probably be in the right ball park. This would be totally correct not taking into account the intended roles of the ships, but knowing that the role of the mackinaw is to be the king of autonomy, I would say it could use a slightly bigger cargo hold, IMHO change the 1% mining bonus to a 10% cargo bonus and youre good. That being said, I believe the skiff could use a little nerf to its cargo hold something like 200 m^3 base and the hulk can probably stay where it is, with the ability to fit 12 crystals (4 changes of ore + 1 in the miners to begin with) seems right to me, thats 1/3 of the types of ore in the game, and most large scale 0.0 mining operations have the miners organized so thats all they'll need for quite a while. The whole "I can hold 12 crystals + what's in the strips" is only in the event of NEW crystals. The REALITY is that you normally run with USED crystals (some run them till they pop, some don't).
When you hit the belt with crystals that are damaged, you automatically need to have spares on hand since they 'could' pop at any time. This immediately reduces your overall fleet effectiveness - and in the end, that's all that matters for everyone involved - how effective can you be (in PvP terms, it's the same as being able to be setup to blow up your opponents before they can blow you up).
The lame argument about "just have someone bring you crystals" is all about "kicking the can down the street" to avoid the issue and a proper solution. Instead of throwing out propsed solutions, they cling to it because they don't have a solution, won't admin they're wrong, or won't listen to proposed solutions by others. Eventually, yes, you'll need crystals / ammo brought to you in any fleet op that lasts for an extended period of time.
Do you need a zillion crystals? No. That's the Skiff & Macks job now with the current changes. - A PvP ship can carry ammo for 100% of their intended target ranges. - The "best" yield Barge can carry ammo (crystals) for 25% of their intended targets.
This is not about carrying a zillion crystals - it is, and always will be, about carrying enough crystals with spares to be efficient.
As has been suggested numerous times by several individuals: 1. Cargoholds should be sized per ship based on number of strips 2. Crystal sizes should be further reduced (I've seen 5m3 & 10m3 as good proposed #'s) 3. You should be able to carry an entire Barge fit in the Cargohold (e.g. strips, crystals, rigs & other mods).
For any specialized ship to not have the basic ability to hold its own is just a precursor to the nerfs to come as it shows the mindset that is in place for this 'tiericide' that's going on. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 17:56:00 -
[442] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:stuff
Carrying crystals in your Hulk beyond the 1 or 2 replacement set(s) you may need is not necessary. T2 crystals for hisec ores (veld, scord, pyroxeres) last me about 5-8 hours per set. If you're working solo you're going to run out of playing time before you run out of crystals (downtime is still once a day); if you're in a fleet, you're going to strip the belt long before your crystals burn out.
If you don't have logistical support -- haulers and/or an Orca -- then just go into the belts beforehand with some secure giant containers packed with replacement crystals and anchor them in the belts. I've done that in some station-less systems in the past and it works great. (It's also handy as a backup in case your hauler or Orca pilot forgets to load the crystals before heading out.) But you're still going to have to run your Hulk back to station every five minutes to dump ore, so I'm not sure what this gains you. Using a Hulk without logi support is really wasteful, even before the barge buff.
|
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 18:21:00 -
[443] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:Infinite Force wrote:stuff Carrying crystals in your Hulk beyond the 1 or 2 replacement set(s) you may need is not necessary. T2 crystals for hisec ores (veld, scord, pyroxeres) last me about 5-8 hours per set. If you're working solo you're going to run out of playing time before you run out of crystals (downtime is still once a day); if you're in a fleet, you're going to strip the belt long before your crystals burn out. The moment you start to think "outside the box" (e.g. low-sec, null-sec, wh space), you will find that this argument will carry no weight anymore.
If you refer to an example of a REAL belt op (and a small one at that), you will begin to understand the nature of true fleet & self sufficiency within a fleet.
Idris Helion wrote:If you don't have logistical support -- haulers and/or an Orca -- then just go into the belts beforehand with some secure giant containers packed with replacement crystals and anchor them in the belts. I've done that in some station-less systems in the past and it works great. (It's also handy as a backup in case your hauler or Orca pilot forgets to load the crystals before heading out.) But you're still going to have to run your Hulk back to station every five minutes to dump ore, so I'm not sure what this gains you. Using a Hulk without logi support is really wasteful, even before the barge buff. People, in general, need to stop thinking that everyone only uses the Hulk "solo", or "afk" - I certainly don't - and many others do not. The Hulk never was designed to be a solomobile - it was only misused as such (with great success, I might add).
Get out of High Sec and your entire thought process on how things work -- will change for the better. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 18:55:00 -
[444] - Quote
Spod? Ye gods. That's like mining Omber in high. Waste of time.
In the narrow case you posted above (and WH space is always going to be an exception to any rule), the logi support argument still holds. With a bit of planning, the lowered cargohold of a Hulk won't matter much if at all. You just have to do a bit more thinking ahead.
|
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
98
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 19:09:00 -
[445] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:Spod? Ye gods. That's like mining Omber in high. Waste of time. In the narrow case you posted above (and WH space is always going to be an exception to any rule), the logi support argument still holds. With a bit of planning, the lowered cargohold of a Hulk won't matter much if at all. You just have to do a bit more thinking ahead.
Hey, waste of time for you, just more mins for me.
If you want to respawn the belt, you clear out everything, even the spud and omber. I know for you high sec guys, that's a foreign concept, as your belts respawn every morning at downtime.
I always use 3 of the same crystals on rocks, its far less clicking/dragging to empty the cargo bay every 104 seconds.
The new limitation will force people to hit different rocks at the same time as crystals get used up with no spares to be had on hand and thus creating more micromanagement.
Having to wait for someone to bring a replacement, or having to warp out of the belt to restock just creates mining inefficiency, thus taking away the bonus the hulk has for being the best mining barge in the game. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 19:56:00 -
[446] - Quote
first of all, anyone who isnt an idiot can give an average of around how long even the damaged mining crystals are going to last. its not that they could break "at any time" they take damage and break at a known rate. Your mining crystals last 6 hours on average, so the simple math would say, take the percentage of damage and subtract that percentage from 6 hours and you know about how long the crystal will last.
and really? assuming you have a crap load of nearly broken crystals, and you're not willing to let your haulers haul them for you (which IMHO is idiocy) you should just not use them all at once! Or do as one of my corp mates does, when a crystal gets > 95% damaged, he reprocesses it.
Ive lived in WH space, and the rocks spawn with a known amount of ore in them. You should have a crystal loadout for each belt when you go into it. Yes it takes a little planning, prep work, and *Gasp* math . . . but it can be easily done by anyone smart enough to live out in WH space. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 20:02:00 -
[447] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:If you want to respawn the belt, you clear out everything, even the spud and omber. I know for you high sec guys, that's a foreign concept, as your belts respawn every morning at downtime.
I always use 3 of the same crystals on rocks, its far less clicking/dragging to empty the cargo bay every 104 seconds.
The new limitation will force people to hit different rocks at the same time as crystals get used up with no spares to be had on hand and thus creating more micromanagement.
Having to wait for someone to bring a replacement, or having to warp out of the belt to restock just creates mining inefficiency, thus taking away the bonus the hulk has for being the best mining barge in the game.
So your complaint is that now you have to play the game while playing the game? Im so sorry, life must be so rough for you.
Ok, sarcasm aside, CCP is now making you work for your max yield wheras before it wasnt hardly any work at all. yes, this might be a bit complicated for someone running >3 accounts but thats the price you pay for wanting max yield. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 20:25:00 -
[448] - Quote
Sigras wrote:first of all, anyone who isnt an idiot can give an average of around how long even the damaged mining crystals are going to last. its not that they could break "at any time" they take damage and break at a known rate. Your mining crystals last 6 hours on average, so the simple math would say, take the percentage of damage and subtract that percentage from 6 hours and you know about how long the crystal will last.
and really? assuming you have a crap load of nearly broken crystals, and you're not willing to let your haulers haul them for you (which IMHO is idiocy) you should just not use them all at once! Or do as one of my corp mates does, when a crystal gets > 95% damaged, he reprocesses it.
Ive lived in WH space, and the rocks spawn with a known amount of ore in them. You should have a crystal loadout for each belt when you go into it. Yes it takes a little planning, prep work, and *Gasp* math . . . but it can be easily done by anyone smart enough to live out in WH space.
Hey you certainly can tell the ones who mine a lot and the ones who don't just by the impotence of a post. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 21:14:00 -
[449] - Quote
Ive discovered that when two people are arguing, the person who is right usually argues the points, and the person who is wrong usually attacks the other person |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 21:32:00 -
[450] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Ive discovered that when two people are arguing, the person who is right usually argues the points, and the person who is wrong usually attacks the other person
Hey, you are the one arguing over a feature that according to yourself would make zero difference in how you mine. So why are you so concerned about someone asking for a change which would have zero effect on how you mine? You sir are just arguing a point for the sake of arguing.
Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
|
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 21:35:00 -
[451] - Quote
im arguing that the requested change is completely unnecessary and dumbs the game down for people.
Does it effect the way I mine? no, does it effect my experience in game? absolutely!
The more the game caters to dumb people, the more dumb people I have to put up with. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 21:46:00 -
[452] - Quote
Sigras wrote:im arguing that the requested change is completely unnecessary and dumbs the game down for people.
Does it effect the way I mine? no, does it effect my experience in game? absolutely!
The more the game caters to dumb people, the more dumb people I have to put up with.
And now you resort to insults in a attempt to prove how righteous your point is, yes that always works so well.
Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 22:04:00 -
[453] - Quote
it would be an insult if it werent the unambiguous truth.
removing decisions in order to make the game easier dumbs the game down by definition. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 22:05:00 -
[454] - Quote
Sigras wrote:it would be an insult if it werent the unambiguous truth.
removing decisions in order to make the game easier dumbs the game down by definition.
Still with the insults and the insistence that your way is the right way!
Keep on arguing over a point that does not affect yourself in anyway at all. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 22:07:00 -
[455] - Quote
insult . . . you keep using that word, i do not think it means what you think it means . . . |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 22:11:00 -
[456] - Quote
also, i never said that my way was the right way, i said that having to do prep work and decide which crystals to take out takes more intelligence than being able to fit all the crystals at once . . .
once again, unambiguous truth. |
Jagoff Haverford
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort Get Off My Lawn
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 22:14:00 -
[457] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote: This is not about carrying a zillion crystals - it is, and always will be, about carrying enough crystals with spares to be efficient.
As has been suggested numerous times by several individuals: 1. Cargoholds should be sized per ship based on number of strips 2. Crystal sizes should be further reduced (I've seen 5m3 & 10m3 as good proposed #'s) 3. You should be able to carry an entire Barge fit in the Cargohold (e.g. strips, crystals, rigs & other mods).
For any specialized ship to not have the basic ability to hold its own is just a precursor to the nerfs to come as it shows the mindset that is in place for this 'tiericide' that's going on.
One other possible solution would simply be to give players the CHOICE -- and remember, this expansion was supposed to be about forcing miners to make choices -- to accept a vastly reduced ore bay in return for a modest increase in cargo hold size. That's pretty much the tradeoff that I had to make for null sec mining before this patch was released. I carried a large number of crystals, and had to accept the fact that I didn't have enough space left over to handle a full 3-laser cycle of ore.
The tiny ore bay wouldn't make the Hulk any less of a fleet ship. If anything, the need to constantly keep filling the jet can makes it rely more (and not less) on haulers.
But you know what? It won't happen. In the pages and pages of discussion about this patch, we've had zero developer interest in discussing things. They are hellbent and committed to making mining less fun, less interactive, and even more AFK than it used to be.
|
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
431
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 22:16:00 -
[458] - Quote
i'd gladly trade ore bay space for cargo space in the hulk.
my hulk has about 2k ore bay going to waste. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 22:25:00 -
[459] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Andy Landen wrote:Well done CCP. Not a miner, but the changes look good to me anyway. I think this sums things up rather nicely. If you are NOT a miner, the changes look good. But, if you ARE a miner, then, perhaps, not so good, eh? :)
I'm a miner. They look great to me. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 22:36:00 -
[460] - Quote
Sigras wrote:also, i never said that my way was the right way, i said that having to do prep work and decide which crystals to take out takes more intelligence than being able to fit all the crystals at once . . .
once again, unambiguous truth.
The problem has never been wanting unlimited crystals in the hold, its having enough crystals to carry out a typical mining op.
My mining session when I push it hard will last 4-6 hours, in that time all I do is reduce the roids into ore. Not having those 3 extra sets or even spares for the current allotment does not make it possible to mine as much as I should be able to using the top of the line exhumer.
No one should have to dock multiple times in such a short duration of game play just to change out crystals. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
|
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 22:40:00 -
[461] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:One other possible solution would simply be to give players the CHOICE -- and remember, this expansion was supposed to be about forcing miners to make choices -- to accept a vastly reduced ore bay in return for a modest increase in cargo hold size. That's pretty much the tradeoff that I had to make for null sec mining before this patch was released. I carried a large number of crystals, and had to accept the fact that I didn't have enough space left over to handle a full 3-laser cycle of ore.
They are giving you a choice, just not the choice YOU want. They are giving you a choice between 16% extra mining amount, or extra crystal space.
These are obviously not the options you want, but that doesnt make it less of a choice.
Jagoff Haverford wrote:It won't happen. In the pages and pages of discussion about this patch, we've had zero developer interest in discussing things. They are hellbent and committed to making mining less fun, less interactive, and even more AFK than it used to be. How is having to plan out your mining op, and having to prepare in advance the different crystal types, and work with haulers less interactive or more AFK?
The fact that some people arent willing to put in the work to get the edge is not CCPs problem. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 22:46:00 -
[462] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Jagoff Haverford wrote:One other possible solution would simply be to give players the CHOICE -- and remember, this expansion was supposed to be about forcing miners to make choices -- to accept a vastly reduced ore bay in return for a modest increase in cargo hold size. That's pretty much the tradeoff that I had to make for null sec mining before this patch was released. I carried a large number of crystals, and had to accept the fact that I didn't have enough space left over to handle a full 3-laser cycle of ore. They are giving you a choice, just not the choice YOU want. They are giving you a choice between 16% extra mining amount, or extra crystal space. These are obviously not the options you want, but that doesnt make it less of a choice. Jagoff Haverford wrote:It won't happen. In the pages and pages of discussion about this patch, we've had zero developer interest in discussing things. They are hellbent and committed to making mining less fun, less interactive, and even more AFK than it used to be. How is having to plan out your mining op, and having to prepare in advance the different crystal types, and work with haulers less interactive or more AFK? The fact that some people arent willing to put in the work to get the edge is not CCPs problem.
Again why is it any of your concern how someone wants to mine?
Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 22:46:00 -
[463] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Sigras wrote:also, i never said that my way was the right way, i said that having to do prep work and decide which crystals to take out takes more intelligence than being able to fit all the crystals at once . . .
once again, unambiguous truth. The problem has never been wanting unlimited crystals in the hold, its having enough crystals to carry out a typical mining op. My mining session when I push it hard will last 4-6 hours, in that time all I do is reduce the roids into ore. Not having those 3 extra sets or even spares for the current allotment does not make it possible to mine as much as I should be able to using the top of the line exhumer. No one should have to dock multiple times in such a short duration of game play just to change out crystals. so when you mine for that 4-6 hours, nobody docks? what do you do with all that ore? Honestly? what im doing after this change is assign my miners each a different type of ore that they mine, I have a spreadsheet that tells me how much M^3 I have of each ore, and i use some math to assign a combination of types to each miner so they come out to have about the same M^3 to mine. then assuming that all the miners mine with about the same efficiency, they only have to have like 6 crystals in their holds in the first place.
All it takes to make the system work for you is patience and intelligence. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 23:04:00 -
[464] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Sigras wrote:Jagoff Haverford wrote:One other possible solution would simply be to give players the CHOICE -- and remember, this expansion was supposed to be about forcing miners to make choices -- to accept a vastly reduced ore bay in return for a modest increase in cargo hold size. That's pretty much the tradeoff that I had to make for null sec mining before this patch was released. I carried a large number of crystals, and had to accept the fact that I didn't have enough space left over to handle a full 3-laser cycle of ore. They are giving you a choice, just not the choice YOU want. They are giving you a choice between 16% extra mining amount, or extra crystal space. These are obviously not the options you want, but that doesnt make it less of a choice. Jagoff Haverford wrote:It won't happen. In the pages and pages of discussion about this patch, we've had zero developer interest in discussing things. They are hellbent and committed to making mining less fun, less interactive, and even more AFK than it used to be. How is having to plan out your mining op, and having to prepare in advance the different crystal types, and work with haulers less interactive or more AFK? The fact that some people arent willing to put in the work to get the edge is not CCPs problem. Again why is it any of your concern how someone wants to mine? Im refuting arguments, the OP said that there is now no choice that the players have, I was pointing out that he is wrong.
I could care less how any of you mine, i just cant stand peoples inaccuracies in saying things like "CCP isnt giving us any choice" when that is clearly wrong. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 23:04:00 -
[465] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:Sigras wrote:also, i never said that my way was the right way, i said that having to do prep work and decide which crystals to take out takes more intelligence than being able to fit all the crystals at once . . .
once again, unambiguous truth. The problem has never been wanting unlimited crystals in the hold, its having enough crystals to carry out a typical mining op. My mining session when I push it hard will last 4-6 hours, in that time all I do is reduce the roids into ore. Not having those 3 extra sets or even spares for the current allotment does not make it possible to mine as much as I should be able to using the top of the line exhumer. No one should have to dock multiple times in such a short duration of game play just to change out crystals. so when you mine for that 4-6 hours, nobody docks? what do you do with all that ore? Honestly? what im doing after this change is assign my miners each a different type of ore that they mine, I have a spreadsheet that tells me how much M^3 I have of each ore, and i use some math to assign a combination of types to each miner so they come out to have about the same M^3 to mine. then assuming that all the miners mine with about the same efficiency, they only have to have like 6 crystals in their holds in the first place. All it takes to make the system work for you is patience and intelligence.
That is correct, my hulks do not dock up when I am mining.
What is this brilliant plan that will work with the current allotment of crystals, I fail to see it, my intelligence must be lacking.
Pick any of the 3 asteroid grav sites from small to large and work out a plan for me that will keep my 3 hulks busy for 6-8 hours with an assortment of used and new crystals (pretend that the EU guys already came along and cleaned out the arkonor/bistot and one or two other rocks or more if just the small).
If you have no idea what rocks are involved in these grav sites, please refer to the Bloodtears Industry Index, it is a little out of date, as there are some rocks much larger than they were before, but it will do. In this plan, fit in cleaning out the grav so a new one will spawn with fresh arkonor.
Also keep in mind, the ship doing the hauling does not come anywhere near the hulks due to the size of the ship, so crystal resupply will not work in this manner. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 23:22:00 -
[466] - Quote
wow, you just make me do all the work dont you?
ok, assuming the EU guys mined out all the ABCM and youre in a "Large Asteroid Cluster" because thats really the only one worth mining in 0.0 which is where im assuming you are as you said that you want a new one to spawn.
You have hulk 1 mine Dark Ochre (400,000 m^3), Hedbergite (240,000 m^3), and Hemorphite (240,000 m^3) for a total of 880,000 m^3 Hulk 2 mines Gneiss (300,000 m^3), Jaspet (240,000 m^3), and Omber (240,000 m^3) for a total of 780,000 m^3 Hulk 3 mines scordite (45,000 m^3) and Spod (800,000 m^3) for a total of 845,000 m^3
each hulk needs only three sets of crystals, and you might have hulk 2 carry a fourth so that he can help hulk 1 with the dark ochre when he's done cause he will finish first.
im sure you can figure out the rest on your own. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 01:15:00 -
[467] - Quote
Sigras wrote:wow, you just make me do all the work dont you?
ok, assuming the EU guys mined out all the ABCM and youre in a "Large Asteroid Cluster" because thats really the only one worth mining in 0.0 which is where im assuming you are as you said that you want a new one to spawn.
You have hulk 1 mine Dark Ochre (400,000 m^3), Hedbergite (240,000 m^3), and Hemorphite (240,000 m^3) for a total of 880,000 m^3 Hulk 2 mines Gneiss (300,000 m^3), Jaspet (240,000 m^3), and Omber (240,000 m^3) for a total of 780,000 m^3 Hulk 3 mines scordite (45,000 m^3) and Spod (800,000 m^3) for a total of 845,000 m^3
each hulk needs only three sets of crystals, and you might have hulk 2 carry a fourth so that he can help hulk 1 with the dark ochre when he's done cause he will finish first.
im sure you can figure out the rest on your own.
Ah, but that works for new crystals, you must take into account having used ones. This plan would not work if you are doing the moderate and especially the small.
The EU guys never mine out the C and M, they will hit something else before that.
When it comes to the spud, you save that for last usually, and hit it with all 3, cause its so slow to take down, as well the mercoxit needs the attention of all 3, due to the lower mining rate. Crockite is doable with 2 hulks, but really could use the attenton of 3 hulks if you want it to vanish faster.
I have tried this with the allotment twice before the patch and deployment, and I could not get it to work when you are including used crystals. Since you always have used crystals on hand, and want to use them up, pretty much you are going to have 60% used when you head out, with conditions varying from ready to blow after a few cycles to near as long as new. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 02:03:00 -
[468] - Quote
which is why you have room for one extra mining crystal set each . . .
you use one set of the busted crystals with one replacement each time, and really this is only if youre being super lazy and dont ever want the hauler to have to bring you new crystals.
Also, assuming your skills dont suck, 240,000 m^3 of ore should only be like 25% damage to your crystals, assuming you use all your crystals on that one type of rock.
That all being said, yes, this strategy wont work on the smaller belts because mining the smaller belts out is a terrible idea as stated in the industry index report that you suggested I read (which btw ive had since 1/14/2011) |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 04:13:00 -
[469] - Quote
Sigras wrote:which is why you have room for one extra mining crystal set each . . .
you use one set of the busted crystals with one replacement each time, and really this is only if youre being super lazy and dont ever want the hauler to have to bring you new crystals.
Also, assuming your skills dont suck, 240,000 m^3 of ore should only be like 25% damage to your crystals, assuming you use all your crystals on that one type of rock.
That all being said, yes, this strategy wont work on the smaller belts because mining the smaller belts out is a terrible idea as stated in the industry index report that you suggested I read (which btw ive had since 1/14/2011)
The Bloodtears Index does not say its terrible to mine the small/moderate, it just states that its best to mine the large for max profit. You are mining with the mindset of only cherry picking the best rocks, not the mindset of mining for industry production.
There is nothing wrong with hitting the other grav sites, sometimes the large is too crowded and you just move on. It is how it is, so we are back to the problem of not enough crystal selection to mine at optimal. And no the rorq can't deliver crystals when it picks up cans.
And if one choose to just mine in the belts of a null sec system, the limited crystal selection would be 100% inadequate for hitting rocks period. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 07:14:00 -
[470] - Quote
Andrew Indy wrote:Caldari 5 wrote:Andrew Indy wrote:Quote:Here is the main problem that I have with the rebalance, that Any of the T1 Barges can out mine Any of the T2 Exhumers. The ore m3 per hour should be in the progression What crack are you smoking, the only Barge that can out mine an Exhumer is the Covetor and that has the same limitations that the Hulk has, as it stands the Exhumers are each better than their barge equivalents in every way other than cost. Lets see here on the devblog I can see that the Retriever can out mine a Skiff, and the Covetor can out mine the Mackinaw and the Skiff. I can see T1 Barges out mining T2 Exhumers, I didn't say that the T1 Barges were out mining the T2 Exhumer of the same hull. Please reread your own post, you clearly say that any of the T1 Hulls can out mine any of the T2 Hulls, i call a load of shite. any way , one could also say the same about almost any of the classes of ships in the game. A T1 Punisher can out DPS a Malediction or Sentinel for example, or say a T1 Arbitrator does the same DPS as a curse. Not sure i would want to 1V1 a Curse with an Arbitrator , would you?
I think that you need to go back and re-learn Set Theory. I stated correctly. If Any of the Set of T1 Barges can Out mine Any of the Set of T2 Exhumers, this is a problem. Expanding the sets If Any of the set of (Covetor, Retriever, Procurer) can out mine Any of the Set of (Hulk, Mackinaw, Skiff), this is a problem. In my above examples there were 2 T1 Barges that could out mine some of the set of T2 Exhumers, This is a Problem.
As for your example of Frigates/cruisers, I was not aware that the T1 Punisher could out DPS the Malediction or Sentinel, this probably needs to be fixed too.
|
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Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 07:38:00 -
[471] - Quote
wait . . . so its your contention that a T1 ship should never out DPS a T2 ship of the same size? IE battlecruiser cruiser frigate etc?
As Bill Nye use to say, Please consider the following:
Fleet Command Ships Heavy Interdictors Electronic Attack Ships Black Ops Ships Covert Ops Ships Logistics Ships
They all do less DPS than other ships of their same size and race because they have different roles that give them different uses.
Thats the way it is with the new mining barges/exhumer relationship
Also, if you wanted to invoke set theory in your earlier statement, you should have used the word "some" instead of "any
saying that "some of the T1 Barges can out mine some of the T2 Exhumers" is much more clear as any has multiple denotations, and the connotation is "every" |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 07:59:00 -
[472] - Quote
Sigras wrote:wait . . . so its your contention that a T1 ship should never out DPS a T2 ship of the same size? IE battlecruiser cruiser frigate etc? I would agree with that
Sigras wrote:As Bill Nye use to say, Please consider the following:
Fleet Command Ships Heavy Interdictors Electronic Attack Ships Black Ops Ships Covert Ops Ships Logistics Ships
They all do less DPS than other ships of their same size and race because they have different roles that give them different uses. So you're saying that if I forgo their role fitting and fit for DPS that they can't out DPS their T1 equivalents? Ouch, Why would you buy the T2 version then?
Sigras wrote:Thats the way it is with the new mining barges/exhumer relationship
Sigras wrote:Also, if you wanted to invoke set theory in your earlier statement, you should have used the word "some" instead of "any
saying that "some of the T1 Barges can out mine some of the T2 Exhumers" is much more clear as any has multiple denotations, and the connotation is "every" Actually if I meant every I would have used the word All. Maybe its more of cultural spin then, Any for me means pick 1, not pick all. Meh, such is the nature of Text,hehehe
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Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 08:21:00 -
[473] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote:Sigras wrote:wait . . . so its your contention that a T1 ship should never out DPS a T2 ship of the same size? IE battlecruiser cruiser frigate etc? I would agree with that Sigras wrote:As Bill Nye use to say, Please consider the following:
Fleet Command Ships Heavy Interdictors Electronic Attack Ships Black Ops Ships Covert Ops Ships Logistics Ships
They all do less DPS than other ships of their same size and race because they have different roles that give them different uses. So you're saying that if I forgo their role fitting and fit for DPS that they can't out DPS their T1 equivalents? Ouch, Why would you buy the T2 version then?
well lets look at the most extreme example, the damnation vs the harbinger.
The damnation does 362 DPS max with T2 ammo and 2 damage mods, the harbinger does 657 DPS with one damage mod and T2 ammo in close and 500 DPS at longer range than the damnation.
The reason people have damnations is for fleet boosting. The point of the ships is normally to use them in the role they excel at.
IE a covert ops ship will never do anywhere near as much damage as a regular combat T1 frigate, but they cant warp cloaked behind enemy lines and pop a covert cyno.
Saying that T2 ships should always do more DPS/Mining than a T1 ship of the same size is a very narrow way of looking at the game, and doesnt take into account more than the DPS role for ships.
Caldari 5 wrote:Sigras wrote:Also, if you wanted to invoke set theory in your earlier statement, you should have used the word "some" instead of "any
saying that "some of the T1 Barges can out mine some of the T2 Exhumers" is much more clear as any has multiple denotations, and the connotation is "every" Actually if I meant every I would have used the word All. Maybe its more of cultural spin then, Any for me means pick 1, not pick all. Meh, such is the nature of Text,hehehe If I said "any T1 mining barge can outmine any T2 mining barge" what most people think is that you can pick any of the T1 mining barges and any of the T2 mining barges and the T1 barge will always come out on top. |
Tlat Ij
Hedion University Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 13:34:00 -
[474] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:No one should have to dock multiple times in such a short duration of game play just to change out crystals. Why not? Most pvp/missioners can't carry 6 hours of ammo unless they are using t1 ammo in lasers. If you want to be able to go that long without having to dock up for crystals use a skiff. If you want to use a hulk , then you have to deal with the consequences of your decision. Unlike before the patch, the hulk is not the best at everything. The mack/skiff actually have reason to get used now, which is the entire point of tiericide. Stop think in tiers like you are used to and start thinking about the potential of ALL the ships. |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
434
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 13:49:00 -
[475] - Quote
Tlat Ij wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:No one should have to dock multiple times in such a short duration of game play just to change out crystals. Why not? Most pvp/missioners can't carry 6 hours of ammo unless they are using t1 ammo in lasers. If you want to be able to go that long without having to dock up for crystals use a skiff. If you want to use a hulk , then you have to deal with the consequences of your decision. Unlike before the patch, the hulk is not the best at everything. The mack/skiff actually have reason to get used now, which is the entire point of tiericide. Stop think in tiers like you are used to and start thinking about the potential of ALL the ships.
why would they need to? they have to dock up to hand in missions, you really can't compare mission running to mining in this context. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Rooter Danaro
Grey Toxic Sword Inver Brass
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 14:34:00 -
[476] - Quote
Throughout this discussion, perhaps have lost what is the essence of the game. The game is fun, and for that we pay for this pleasure, so we may require. I do not like the changes made GÇïGÇïin the mining barges. I express my loud protests. I have a play with it and do not plan what and where I have to take. I want to go quietly with my hulkami and rorqalem the Gravia without worrying about whether I run out of crystals or not. And now I can not because some jerk from the CCP decided that I must a plan. In EVE has always been a specialized craft, both in PVP and in mining. Now, someone decided to have it all now I have only flatten the choice of either a weak hull and large output or high strength and low output. Zero specialization, and still needs to continue for at least two or three hulls in the figure because of the modifications. Up to now grapple with the front which was the invention of unified inventory, and also tells us that this is the best invention in the history of EVE, and now under the influence of the victims crying hopelessly hotfix hulcageddon done that really brings nothing beyond indignation large group of players. After such a flattening of roles and exhumers bar is probably futile to so many kinds of them, in the end enough to just two hulls retiver for beginners and advanced players Mackin
EVE once could boast the game as an elite and very difficult. Today, all is done to simplify and to make it just look like that in my opinion the best game becomes similar to WoW. Just watch you get micro-payments, and we remain only with grief to look like a great project that is EVE is increasingly damaged by the reckless actions.
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Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 14:58:00 -
[477] - Quote
you guys are talking bollocks about T1 v T2 ships.
of course T2 ships should mine more than their T1 counterparts, using a cov ops against a T1 frig is a stupid example as they are for different roles!, you should look at some thing like the T1 Rifter against a Wolf, or Incursus against an Enyo, these ships have the same role, damage dealers the same as barges and exumers have the same role, mining!
Also i note with interest that there was a new item about afk plex running and how this is viewed as an exploit....seems odd as we all know that people afk mine, and now CCP has released ships that might as well have "akk do not disturb" signs issued with them, why is afk mining not also an exploit?
|
Maul555
Nuts and Vindictive Remix Technologies
302
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 16:50:00 -
[478] - Quote
looking for information on these new rigs... |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
143
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 20:01:00 -
[479] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote:you guys are talking bollocks about T1 v T2 ships.
of course T2 ships should mine more than their T1 counterparts, using a cov ops against a T1 frig is a stupid example as they are for different roles!, you should look at some thing like the T1 Rifter against a Wolf, or Incursus against an Enyo, these ships have the same role, damage dealers the same as barges and exumers have the same role, mining! Youre defining "role" very narrowly
The role of the mackinaw/retriever is autonomous mining The role of the skiff/procurer is tanky mining The role of the hulk/covetor is mining yield
Should it be a surprise that the covetor does its role better than the mackinaw does the covetors role? |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
143
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 20:10:00 -
[480] - Quote
Rooter Danaro wrote:Throughout this discussion, perhaps have lost what is the essence of the game. The game is fun, and for that we pay for this pleasure, so we may require. I do not like the changes made GÇïGÇïin the mining barges. I express my loud protests. I have a play with it and do not plan what and where I have to take. I want to go quietly with my hulkami and rorqalem the Gravia without worrying about whether I run out of crystals or not. And now I can not because some jerk from the CCP decided that I must a plan. In EVE has always been a specialized craft, both in PVP and in mining. Now, someone decided to have it all now I have only flatten the choice of either a weak hull and large output or high strength and low output. Zero specialization, and still needs to continue for at least two or three hulls in the figure because of the modifications. Up to now grapple with the front which was the invention of unified inventory, and also tells us that this is the best invention in the history of EVE, and now under the influence of the victims crying hopelessly hotfix hulcageddon done that really brings nothing beyond indignation large group of players. After such a flattening of roles and exhumers bar is probably futile to so many kinds of them, in the end enough to just two hulls retiver for beginners and advanced players Mackin
EVE once could boast the game as an elite and very difficult. Today, all is done to simplify and to make it just look like that in my opinion the best game becomes similar to WoW. Just watch you get micro-payments, and we remain only with grief to look like a great project that is EVE is increasingly damaged by the reckless actions. Once again it feels like im reading Lorem Ipsum, but what i think youre complaining about is that there is now no specialization which is total crap
Before the hulk was the undisputed king of mining, it had tank, cargo space, yield, basically everything you could ever want; it lost against the mackinaw when ice mining but only by 15.6%, and it still had the better tank and cargo space.
Now you have a choice in what you want to do. they are MORE specialized instead of "herp derp ice ship" and "everything else ship" |
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Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 05:28:00 -
[481] - Quote
long gone are the days when 50,000 player regularly logged.....and this is the best ccp could come up with? many players had perfect hulk and orca skills and now the hulk is nerfed to benefit whomever is the flavor of the month. |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
439
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 07:59:00 -
[482] - Quote
people need to look up the definition of nerfed, it honestly doesn't mean what half of you people think it means. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
celebro
Perpetuum Industries
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 11:24:00 -
[483] - Quote
These changes made me come back and try out the different mining vessels, all round a good change, though I would still prefer the Hulk with slightly more cargo hold and able to tank better. |
Captian Meths
Jabba Industries INC. Punkz 'n Monkeys
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 11:29:00 -
[484] - Quote
Dalilus wrote:long gone are the days when 50,000 player regularly logged.....and this is the best ccp could come up with? many players had perfect hulk and orca skills and now the hulk is nerfed to benefit whomever is the flavor of the month.
Totally agree!! I think the aim of the game is now to benefit the new players only as they are losing players fast and at this rate might be dead soon if they don't give the noob easier access to mining and pew pew ops. Changes aint worth coming back to the game - sad but true :( Give it a year or two, if the game is still alive I am sure CCP pulled they finger and eventually started to listen to the players not their uninformed management. |
Recoaim
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 13:31:00 -
[485] - Quote
All the ISK spent to get five Hulks with cargo hold optimization LOL. At least I can do 2 cycles before the ore hold is full when not being boosted. Oh well I guess it's just a game and there are other ships. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
156
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 14:21:00 -
[486] - Quote
My God!
It's like listening to a jet engine shutting down. But it never shuts down! |
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders MPA
107
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 16:48:00 -
[487] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:My God! It's like listening to a jet engine shutting down. But it never shuts down! Or listening to my one year old and three year old make noise (they start yelling "ahhhhh" at one another and won't stop).
Having used the Retriever and looking at ice mining, I can see how this is really a master stroke by CCP. Here's why: It is now easier for any player to get a ship and go get ice for their POS. Using a Retriever allows a large amount of ice with minimal baby sitting. So more people can easily do this. Therefore they need to buy less ice. So ice botters are making way less from selling ice. Since they bot to make isk and/or real cash (I'm sure they do this, despite it being against the rules), it becomes less and less profitable for them to bot, making them stop botting. After all, if more players are now getting their own ice, they don't need to buy it, creating a glut on the market and causing prices to drop, killing botter profits. Eventually, a larger number of botters will be gone, the glut will decrease and prices will stabilize so players can still make some isk mining, but not as is currently.
A new balance will be found with less miners overall, getting more people to follow other career options. I can see ore mining following a similar path as well. As more players do their own mining, it just stops being useful/profitable to bot-mine.
I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it. |
Uthgaard
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 16:52:00 -
[488] - Quote
The issue is that while in theory, it sounds good to make the hulk dependent on a group, and not a solo mining option, in practice, it doesn't work out that way.
What happened was the hulk was turned into a quarter of a billion isk ship that can be alphad by a 2m frigate. They can be one shotted in large groups by smartbombs. No group is going to prevent that loss. Suicide ganking is trivial in any sec, because of the low cost involved in doing so. Place that alongside the realization that the reason to kill the hulk is already sitting outside of it in a jetcan due to the ore hold changes, while considering that the added ore yield is extremely marginal.
I certainly like the design decision's intent in theory. However, in practice, the result we end up with leaves the hulk as a ship of rapidly declining value due to obscene impracticality, because a dev decided to go too far with the changes, effectively derping all over the ore ships.
The current relative level of value that one must invest in order to succeed with a suicide gank against a hulk is inconsistent with the current game design. You wouldn't expect to pop an obelisk with a velator, and the obelisk can actually hold something of value. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
100
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 16:57:00 -
[489] - Quote
Anvil44 wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:My God! It's like listening to a jet engine shutting down. But it never shuts down! Or listening to my one year old and three year old make noise (they start yelling "ahhhhh" at one another and won't stop). Having used the Retriever and looking at ice mining, I can see how this is really a master stroke by CCP. Here's why: It is now easier for any player to get a ship and go get ice for their POS. Using a Retriever allows a large amount of ice with minimal baby sitting. So more people can easily do this. Therefore they need to buy less ice. So ice botters are making way less from selling ice. Since they bot to make isk and/or real cash (I'm sure they do this, despite it being against the rules), it becomes less and less profitable for them to bot, making them stop botting. After all, if more players are now getting their own ice, they don't need to buy it, creating a glut on the market and causing prices to drop, killing botter profits. Eventually, a larger number of botters will be gone, the glut will decrease and prices will stabilize so players can still make some isk mining, but not as is currently. A new balance will be found with less miners overall, getting more people to follow other career options. I can see ore mining following a similar path as well. As more players do their own mining, it just stops being useful/profitable to bot-mine.
The changes actually make it easier for botters, and regardless of the prices, botting will still be profitable, its steady isk income for no effort. If prices go down, they just put out more bots. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders MPA
107
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 18:15:00 -
[490] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:
The changes actually make it easier for botters, and regardless of the prices, botting will still be profitable, its steady isk income for no effort. If prices go down, they just put out more bots.
I suppose if you have unlimited cash for more accounts, you can put out more bots. But why bother, if you make less isk per account than what it costs to run the account? You create accounts and run them with bots to make isk, to buy PLEX which you sell to other players for $. (At least that is the only reason I can think of to run bots). If you make less isk, you can buy less PLEX which means you make less $. At some point, it could stop being worthwhile as the glut of ice and refined ice products drive the prices down, while the versatility and usefulness of the newly redesigned mining ships drives demand down. Economics will come into play sooner or later. And these changes have the potential to make it sooner.
Our corp has seen prices for ice drop dramatically in the last week and we have mined a LOT of ice for our own POS use. We don't need to buy ice for quite a while now as we have buffed our supply. And it wasn't that hard to do. I mined probably 3-4 times more ice in the same amount of time in my Retriever as I did before the changes. Knowing full well I could still be easily ganked of course. And now I am in no hurry to get into an Exhumer for high sec ice harvesting. I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it. |
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Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 19:49:00 -
[491] - Quote
Uthgaard wrote:The issue is that while in theory, it sounds good to make the hulk dependent on a group, and not a solo mining option, in practice, it doesn't work out that way. I certainly like the design decision's intent in theory. However, in practice, the result we end up with leaves the hulk as a ship of rapidly declining value due to obscene impracticality, because a dev decided to go too far with the changes, effectively derping all over the ore ships.
What happened was the hulk was turned into a quarter of a billion isk ship that can be alphad by a 2m frigate. They can be suicide ganked in large groups by smartbombs. No group is going to prevent that loss. Suicide ganking is trivial in any sec, because of the low cost involved in doing so. Place that alongside the realization that the reason to kill the hulk is already sitting outside of it in a jetcan due to the ore hold changes, while considering that the added ore yield is extremely marginal.
The current relative level of value that one must invest in order to succeed with a suicide gank against a hulk is inconsistent with the current game design. You wouldn't expect to pop an obelisk with a velator, and the obelisk can actually hold something of value.
Hulks were always very gankable due to the paper-tank fits so many miners used. (Cargo over tank always seems like a good trade until some Goon comes by and turns your expensive exhumer into a pile of space debris. And cargo over yield -- expanders instead of MLU's in the lows -- was just a dumb way to use a Hulk.)
The buffs to the T1 barges are actually a bigger deal than to their T2 exhumer variants.
Consider the lowly procurer: prior to the patch, it really had no reason to exists except as a hull for the Skiff. No miner in his right mind would have flown a procurer -- an Osprey outmined it and offered better protection to boot. It was one of the worst ships in the game, by far. Now? It's a decent low-end miner with an awesome tank. The Skiff, even more so. I'm sure I'm not the only one seeing roles for these ships that have nothing whatever to do with running mining lasers!
The Retriever went from being a "meh" T1 option to being an awesome (and cheap!) solo mining vessel. And the Mackinaw is now the Mack-daddy of the mining world for lots of pilots who used to roll a Hulk.
The Covetor is now a viable alternative to a Hulk if you're just starting a mining corp and need to outfit your pilots (though a Ret is probably a better option, honestly).
And the Hulk? The Hulk is still the king of yield, so that hasn't changed. If you flew a Hulk before, very little about your life will change unless you depended on a big cargo bay (which apparently a lot of Hulk pilots did). But since the Hulk is now targeted at fleet mining ops, individual cargo should be less of an issue. In other respects, the Hulk is as good as it ever was.
|
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
174
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 23:26:00 -
[492] - Quote
Those worried that the latest round of changes will somehow kill the sandbox, remember that off-label use still lives.
You'll figure out some of the goodies they put into this release soon enough if you get out of your hyperfocus on the hulk changes (BTW, the Hulk is now the best ice miner as well as the best ore miner as long as you have a hauler, so whine away).
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TheSpyInCorp
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.13 23:54:00 -
[493] - Quote
would be cool if we could get a 2 pulse notification burst when our ore bay gets to the point where it won't hold another strip miner cycle. Though I guess you would have to treat the strip miner closest from finishing as if it represented the barge's total strip miner yield. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
152
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 00:32:00 -
[494] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:The changes actually make it easier for botters, and regardless of the prices, botting will still be profitable, its steady isk income for no effort. If prices go down, they just put out more bots. I agree that botting will never go away unless hit with the ban hammer from CCP, but how exactly does this change help bots?
If anything its a nerf to them because they already had the perfect programming to dock as soon as their cargohold is full, whereas humans have to pay attention and dock when their cargohold is full.
The programming code is exactly the same they just go longer between docks, and now they cant mine as much as they used to before . . . I dont see the problem |
Mini Mizer
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 07:06:00 -
[495] - Quote
worthless change worthless effort worthless things to train
keep ruining the ships and the playstyles.
go go go
|
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
70
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 14:51:00 -
[496] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:And the Hulk? The Hulk is still the king of yield, so that hasn't changed. If you flew a Hulk before, very little about your life will change unless you depended on a big cargo bay (which apparently a lot of Hulk pilots did). But since the Hulk is now targeted at fleet mining ops, individual cargo should be less of an issue. In other respects, the Hulk is as good as it ever was. All your points are good, and even most of this is as well. But the cargo/crystal issue for hulk pilots really is a royal PITA... there just isn't a good mechanism for keeping track of who owns which crystal during mining ops (and anybody who says 'use cans!' is just slapping a band-aid on the problem), and for folks (like me) who are able to mine semi-solo in 0.0, not having a full crystal compliment is imposing a major headache for no legitimate gameplay or balance reason. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
174
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 15:05:00 -
[497] - Quote
Atum wrote:Idris Helion wrote:And the Hulk? The Hulk is still the king of yield, so that hasn't changed. If you flew a Hulk before, very little about your life will change unless you depended on a big cargo bay (which apparently a lot of Hulk pilots did). But since the Hulk is now targeted at fleet mining ops, individual cargo should be less of an issue. In other respects, the Hulk is as good as it ever was. All your points are good, and even most of this is as well. But the cargo/crystal issue for hulk pilots really is a royal PITA... there just isn't a good mechanism for keeping track of who owns which crystal during mining ops (and anybody who says 'use cans!' is just slapping a band-aid on the problem), and for folks (like me) who are able to mine semi-solo in 0.0, not having a full crystal compliment is imposing a major headache for no legitimate gameplay or balance reason. Anybody for whom the crystal problem with the hulk is an actual problem would probably be happier flying a mackinaw, if they can get over the fact that they can't get the best cargo hold and the best yield in the same ship.
And if you are mining in 0.0 in anything but a fully boosted fleet with haulers and guards you are already giving up the yield, so WTF is the problem here? Upset that there's now a ship better suited to the task? |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
70
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 15:53:00 -
[498] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:And if you are mining in 0.0 in anything but a fully boosted fleet with haulers and guards you are already giving up the yield, so WTF is the problem here? Upset that there's now a ship better suited to the task? You're late to the show, but in an earlier message (most likely ten pages back, if not more), I made the observation that every 0.0 miner I know already either fleets up with an off-grid booster, and/or multiboxes. They just don't all sit at the same asteroid field and circle-jerk (sing cumbaya, whatever). The rorq or orca sits in a pos (sometimes afk, especially if it's a deployed rorq) while the miners run around doing their thing. The multiboxing variant is often a max-yield hulk protected+boosted by a BC or command ship with gang links and a mining foreman chipped pilot who busies themselves chaining rats. In the first case, you're now penalizing the hulk pilot for .... what reason? They're part of a fleet, they're being social, they're just not all in the same field with ships that have "KILL ME!!! I'M SLOWER THAN FROZEN MOLASSES!!!" written all over them. In the second case, you're forcing an artificial limitation on efficiency for.... why? Maybe the BC/Command ship starts carrying crystals, so instead of limiting the crystal storage in the hulk, you're limiting the ammo/salvage storage in the fighter. Either way, you've nerfed what had previously been a perfectly functional system for no reason, and made miners' lives harder instead of easier.
Yeah, yeah, HTFU, adapt or die, whatever. If CCP wants war, they can't keep kicking the feet out from underneath the people who provide the materials for it. Eventually there'll be nothing left to fight with, and nobody (aside from botters) left who wants to do the grunt work of harvesting the materials for replacement. |
Crexa
Star Mandate
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 16:32:00 -
[499] - Quote
The changes to the various mining ships doesn't bother me too much its part of what happens in EVE and for that matter any MMO.
What bothers me, NO ANNOYS me is the unified inventory crap and its impact on the cargo hold/corporate hanger/ship maint./ore hold. etc. Navigating all this crap is annoying because it doens't work quite right nor do changes stick, and the cargo hold button on the hud takes me to what is now the least used storage location. "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?" |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
129
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 19:44:00 -
[500] - Quote
Atum wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:And if you are mining in 0.0 in anything but a fully boosted fleet with haulers and guards you are already giving up the yield, so WTF is the problem here? Upset that there's now a ship better suited to the task? You're late to the show, but in an earlier message (most likely ten pages back, if not more), I made the observation that every 0.0 miner I know already either fleets up with an off-grid booster, and/or multiboxes. They just don't all sit at the same asteroid field and circle-jerk (sing cumbaya, whatever). The rorq or orca sits in a pos (sometimes afk, especially if it's a deployed rorq) while the miners run around doing their thing. The multiboxing variant is often a max-yield hulk protected+boosted by a BC or command ship with gang links and a mining foreman chipped pilot who busies themselves chaining rats. In the first case, you're now penalizing the hulk pilot for .... what reason? They're part of a fleet, they're being social, they're just not all in the same field with ships that have "KILL ME!!! I'M SLOWER THAN FROZEN MOLASSES!!!" written all over them. In the second case, you're forcing an artificial limitation on efficiency for.... why? Maybe the BC/Command ship starts carrying crystals, so instead of limiting the crystal storage in the hulk, you're limiting the ammo/salvage storage in the fighter. Either way, you've nerfed what had previously been a perfectly functional system for no reason, and made miners' lives harder instead of easier. Yeah, yeah, HTFU, adapt or die, whatever. If CCP wants war, they can't keep kicking the feet out from underneath the people who provide the materials for it. Eventually there'll be nothing left to fight with, and nobody (aside from botters) left who wants to do the grunt work of harvesting the materials for replacement. QFT.
We've pretty much been beaten over the head by CCPs barge "update". As I've stated elsewhere - I like the changes -- for the most part.
There were 3 big issues that needed to be addressed (balanced) between the 6 Barges: 1. Tank 2. Ore Hold 3. Yield
So, what happened? (You should have read the Dev Blog & Patch Notes by now.)
Using the standard scale of 5 pts for Primary, 3 pts Secondary, and 1 pt for Tertiary abilities, we end up like this: Tank - Skiff (5) / Mack (3) / Hulk (1) Ore Hold - Mack (5) / Skiff (3) / Hulk (1) Yield - Hulk (5) / Mack (3) / Skiff (1)
Mack: 11 points Skiff : 9 Points Hulk: 7 Points
Each Barge has a primary 'role feature', but the 2nd & 3rd 'features' are what really makes or breaks these changes.
For all 6 barges, 2 of these 'role features' should have been implemented - a primary and a secondary.
It was pointed out in testing, over and over again, that the Mack would simply replace the Hulk if the balancing wasn't done right.
The feedback was not listened to in general, so is it any wonder why the Mack is now "king of the Barges"? HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression - The only way to go! |
|
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
174
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 20:37:00 -
[501] - Quote
Atum wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:And if you are mining in 0.0 in anything but a fully boosted fleet with haulers and guards you are already giving up the yield, so WTF is the problem here? Upset that there's now a ship better suited to the task? You're late to the show, but in an earlier message (most likely ten pages back, if not more), I made the observation that every 0.0 miner I know already either fleets up with an off-grid booster, and/or multiboxes. They just don't all sit at the same asteroid field and circle-jerk (sing cumbaya, whatever). The rorq or orca sits in a pos (sometimes afk, especially if it's a deployed rorq) while the miners run around doing their thing. The multiboxing variant is often a max-yield hulk protected+boosted by a BC or command ship with gang links and a mining foreman chipped pilot who busies themselves chaining rats. In the first case, you're now penalizing the hulk pilot for .... what reason? They're part of a fleet, they're being social, they're just not all in the same field with ships that have "KILL ME!!! I'M SLOWER THAN FROZEN MOLASSES!!!" written all over them. In the second case, you're forcing an artificial limitation on efficiency for.... why? Maybe the BC/Command ship starts carrying crystals, so instead of limiting the crystal storage in the hulk, you're limiting the ammo/salvage storage in the fighter. Either way, you've nerfed what had previously been a perfectly functional system for no reason, and made miners' lives harder instead of easier. Yeah, yeah, HTFU, adapt or die, whatever. If CCP wants war, they can't keep kicking the feet out from underneath the people who provide the materials for it. Eventually there'll be nothing left to fight with, and nobody (aside from botters) left who wants to do the grunt work of harvesting the materials for replacement. So swap crystals when you drop your load at the Orca/Rorq, or have the hauler drop them off for you.
You are crying about something that only requires a small procedural change like it is the end of the freakin world here.
It isn't.
On the other hand, if it's because you *can't* change your procedure, one might begin to wonder why not... |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
71
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 20:57:00 -
[502] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:So swap crystals when you drop your load at the Orca/Rorq, or have the hauler drop them off for you.
You are crying about something that only requires a small procedural change like it is the end of the freakin world here.
It isn't.
On the other hand, if it's because you *can't* change your procedure, one might begin to wonder why not... I *LOVE* your implication that I must be a botter, but I invite you to add all of my characters to your watch list (and thankfully, unlike Chribba, I only have six). You'll find that my play time is pretty much nil (RL work is soaring, but that makes me a tired puppy). Whatever... I can tell you're not a mining primary, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, your statement "swap crystals when you drop your load" goes against everything a hardcore miner does. They do NOT leave the belts unless forced to by a hostile entity, belt depletion, or crystal depletion. Hostile entities are something nobody can do anything about, and I've sat in a (cloaked) buzzard and watched as a dramiel taunted me in local and popped jetcans representing nearly two hours of mining output a couple of times. Le'sigh, but that's multiboxing life in 0.0. Belt depletion is generally not a problem, since most belts only take two or three warp-ins, and require an entire day (solo, anyways) to mine out. Crystal depletion, pre-change, was also not too much of a problem, as you could hold three or four of every T2 type and be comfortable knowing you were ready for whatever happened to be out there.
After the change, however... you've got space for 14 T2 crystals (assuming you're not using cargo rigs), plus three more in the lasers. CCP Tallest *claims* a crystal ought to last 5ish hours, but I've never seen it. Regardless, that's 17 crystals against 15 ore types. Now you're stuck with either gimping your output by using the wrong (or no) crystal against a rock, or gimping your output by not carrying all the different crystal types. Either way, you're gimped, and that's a *NERF* against both what had been a perfectly functioning system, AND the notion that the hulk is the "king" of output. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
71
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 21:05:00 -
[503] - Quote
Atum wrote: Crystal depletion, pre-change, was also not too much of a problem, as you could hold three or four of every T2 type and be comfortable knowing you were ready for whatever happened to be out there. I wanted to separate this out for special attention... carrying that many crystals also represented a nice anti-botting "feature," as it required *ACTIVE* participation and management of the laser cycles to prevent cargo hold overflow, the bane of miners everwhere |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
174
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 21:12:00 -
[504] - Quote
Atum wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:So swap crystals when you drop your load at the Orca/Rorq, or have the hauler drop them off for you.
You are crying about something that only requires a small procedural change like it is the end of the freakin world here.
It isn't.
On the other hand, if it's because you *can't* change your procedure, one might begin to wonder why not... I *LOVE* your implication that I must be a botter, but I invite you to add all of my characters to your watch list (and thankfully, unlike Chribba, I only have six). You'll find that my play time is pretty much nil (RL work is soaring, but that makes me a tired puppy). Whatever... I can tell you're not a mining primary, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, your statement "swap crystals when you drop your load" goes against everything a hardcore miner does. If you aren't leaving the belt, you have a hauler.
Either you go to a ship that can carry crystals for you, or such a ship comes to you regularly enough to deal with the issue.
The inflexibilty of thought required to not see this and simply adjust your procedures accordingly is mind-boggling. |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 03:18:00 -
[505] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:The feedback was not listened to in general, so is it any wonder why the Mack is now "king of the Barges"?
Except it's not...or at least it shouldn't be. The Hulk was clearly superior in nearly any role prior to the patch, so it made sense for miners to use it regardless of the use-case. But now, each barge/exhumer hull has a well-defined role -- that doesn't mean miners will use different hulls, but using a "one size fits all" approach now will hurt miners in some critical area: yield, ore capacity, or tank. Yeah, lots of miners jumped into the Mack (including me), but I think that gankers are going to come up with strategies to efficiently kill Macks, and that will bring miners out of their trance: lose a couple of expensive hulls to gankers and all of a sudden a Skiff is looking pretty good, lower yield notwithstanding.
The novelty will wear off the new mining boats pretty soon, and good miners will start focusing on the strengths and weaknesses of the hulls.
The Mack/Retriever's role is a solo/small-gang mining boat. The preponderance of the hull in hisec just means that most miners in hisec are solo miners (or dual-box with an alt), and simply mentally replaced the Hulk with the Mack without thinking much about what the change would mean. For example, if you're mining with a Mack in a fleet that already has haulers, an Orca, and/or a Rorqual, you're leaving a lot of yield on the table by not using a Hulk. (And it's not a trivial amount -- the difference in yield between a Mack and a Hulk is significant).
It used to be that you simply skilled up to use a Hulk and that's the only hull you ever flew. Now you have to consider what you'll be mining, whether you'll be fleeted/boosted or not, and whether you'll be facing only belt rats or other hostiles in system.
Another note: you're going to see the same lazy miners who used to fly lousy Hulk fits doing the same with Macks. They'd lose fewer ships and hence make better ISK by tanking properly (or flying a Skiff), but no: they'll just sit out there in the belts like big quacking ducks and whine on the boards when some joyriding Goon pops them and their expensive ship. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
71
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 03:27:00 -
[506] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:Infinite Force wrote:The feedback was not listened to in general, so is it any wonder why the Mack is now "king of the Barges"? It used to be that you simply skilled up to use a Hulk and that's the only hull you ever flew. Now you have to consider what you'll be mining, whether you'll be fleeted/boosted or not, and whether you'll be facing only belt rats or other hostiles in system. This might have been (will be?) true in high sec, but not in null. The old roles (hulk - yield, mack - ice, skiff - mercox) were definitely a part of life, and people did use the correct tool for the job. Granted, not many people bothered with skiffs, and would leave the mercox sitting there, hoping someone else in USTZ would clear it and respawn the belt, but macks were far and away the choice for ice. Now? We're left with ice rigs, mercox rigs, and hulks that can't carry enough crystals to get the job done anymore.
Nobody Ever wrote:I want ore bays on my barges!!!
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Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
449
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 07:46:00 -
[507] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:Infinite Force wrote:The feedback was not listened to in general, so is it any wonder why the Mack is now "king of the Barges"? Except it's not...or at least it shouldn't be. The Hulk was clearly superior in nearly any role prior to the patch, so it made sense for miners to use it regardless of the use-case. But now, each barge/exhumer hull has a well-defined role -- that doesn't mean miners will use different hulls, but using a "one size fits all" approach now will hurt miners in some critical area: yield, ore capacity, or tank. Yeah, lots of miners jumped into the Mack (including me), but I think that gankers are going to come up with strategies to efficiently kill Macks, and that will bring miners out of their trance: lose a couple of expensive hulls to gankers and all of a sudden a Skiff is looking pretty good, lower yield notwithstanding. The novelty will wear off the new mining boats pretty soon, and good miners will start focusing on the strengths and weaknesses of the hulls. The Mack/Retriever's role is a solo/small-gang mining boat. The preponderance of the hull in hisec just means that most miners in hisec are solo miners (or dual-box with an alt), and simply mentally replaced the Hulk with the Mack without thinking much about what the change would mean. For example, if you're mining with a Mack in a fleet that already has haulers, an Orca, and/or a Rorqual, you're leaving a lot of yield on the table by not using a Hulk. (And it's not a trivial amount -- the difference in yield between a Mack and a Hulk is significant). It used to be that you simply skilled up to use a Hulk and that's the only hull you ever flew. Now you have to consider what you'll be mining, whether you'll be fleeted/boosted or not, and whether you'll be facing only belt rats or other hostiles in system. Another note: you're going to see the same lazy miners who used to fly lousy Hulk fits doing the same with Macks. They'd lose fewer ships and hence make better ISK by tanking properly (or flying a Skiff), but no: they'll just sit out there in the belts like big quacking ducks and whine on the boards when some joyriding Goon pops them and their expensive ship.
except it is, and we knew it from the moment it hit sisi.
the mackinaw is superior in every way now. it has immense space for ore and crystals alike, +1 over the hulk, it has more ehp than the hulk and more than enough to deter suicide gankers +1 over the hulk, and +1 over the skiff where you have unnecessary amounts of ehp by sacrificing everything else (pure overkill), and a 3mlu mack mines more than the old cargo expanded hulk. let's face it, the new mack beats the old shitfit cargo hulks in every single way possible.
sure a 2x mlu hulk is going to outmine a mackinaw, but that tiny extra yield for all the hassle and tedium of moving ore every cycle, dealing with swapping crystals between ships, etc... no, simply isn't worth it when you can set a few mackinaws to work and tab out to your favourite **** site.
the real issue that makes the mack the king of miners at the moment is that the hulk simply doesn't provide enough extra yield for people to want to deal with it's ****** little cargo bay and having to rely on other people feeding it. it's simply not as fun as tabbing out and having a ****, nor is that hassle worth the extra yield. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:46:00 -
[508] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:the mackinaw is superior in every way now. it has immense space for ore and crystals alike, +1 over the hulk, it has more ehp than the hulk and more than enough to deter suicide gankers +1 over the hulk, and +1 over the skiff where you have unnecessary amounts of ehp by sacrificing everything else (pure overkill), and a 3mlu mack mines more than the old cargo expanded hulk. let's face it, the new mack beats the old shitfit cargo hulks in every single way possible.
Which is pure win in my view. Cargo-fit Hulks were pure FAIL nine times out of ten, and I secretly rejoiced every time a ganker killed one. If you can't be bothered to tank your ~400M ISK ship properly, you deserve to lose it.
If you're a solo miner (or a dual-boxer), then of course the Mack is better than the Hulk. That's the point. The Retriever/Mack's role is a solo/small-gang mining hull. And it's actually possible to tank it properly without sacrificing yield, which is a huge plus over the old Hulk.
The Hulk used to be the end-all, be-all mining hull in EVE. Now it's not. The other hulls actually have a purpose in the game, and a smart miner is going to pick and choose which one to use depending on the mining op. Yes, lots won't and will simply use a Mack for everything, but lazy miners are a feature of EVE and always have been. Gankers will find a way to profitably kill them and I will continue to rejoice when this happens.
I've actually salted a lot of my mining systems with T1 Retrievers. It's a cheap way to build a mining fleet with good yield, and cost differential between a Ret and a Mack is huge. I can buy ten Rets for the cost of one Mack, and get in the same ballpark yield-wise. Plus, if I want to skill up a new mining toon, a Retriever can be achieved in a few weeks; a Mack is going to take quite a bit longer.
The Procurer/Skiff is already starting to appeal to me, both as a ninja mining platform and as a non-mining mission drone boat -- that huge tank can outlast any mission rat in hisec while the drones chew them up. Skiffs would also be great for running hot grav sites.
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Zigne Nardieu
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 21:19:00 -
[509] - Quote
This patch where bad...
This patch support bots/solo miner / poor ppl
The hulk is now a terribal ship in fleet up if u multi box cargo hold is to litte... can hold 1,-+ cikle... and u cent even make it bigger -..-... Old crago rigs are uless now on them... great ty for +100 mill gone on noting aswell there
and the retivers cost 15 mill and can carry amost 3 times as much as the hulk... and have better bonus on the ships per strips miner on or then the hulk? Dont know who got the idear to buff the bad ships that much... and neft the good ones that mucj... just seem retared that the cheap and chearfull ship... all can buy ahve a better role bonus to mining then the " best mining ship" Just looks like the ppl there where trying to do this patch did not think aboute that they where doing a all...
year sure u want to make all ships " ues more" but this where not the right way... wrongs groups in the game u support... and u will see that on the long run -.-
So guess what u realy want is more ppl afk mining in retriver and mac... and more bots...
And punish ppl in fleet or mulit box set up's.. dont see the point in this patch... just bad bad and even more bad...
The way i see the game... is aboute team play and "get toghter and do somting" to get to a goal done... "can be bashing a poss.... taking over a system" getting the minerals needed for a ship or just suply ur corp or allaicne whit fules to poss or what ever ur goal are in the game...
This patch just kinda ruined mining... in a mac in a ice belt u can problay go afk for around a h if ur skill are bad and whit out orca support...
Buff the hulk(tank and cargo bay... or realy buff the mining yeil , and Nerf the Retriver /Covoter/Producer Neft the mac cargo bay buff... Dont see the reason that the retiver/convoter is almost as good as the mac/hulk
btw i have 7 mac pilots atm... and a orca... mac needed a nerf in cargo bays .... i can be afk around 30 min whit all my mac pilots... Whit peftceft boost
3 ice minger upgrades 2 ice miners2 1 rig ice
and still have +20k efh |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 22:26:00 -
[510] - Quote
Zigne Nardieu wrote:stuff
Yet another dumbass who didn't read the patch notes, didn't actually think about what the mining ships do now, and can only express themselves in a badly-spelled stream-of-consciousness rant.
CCP just gave you a massively pimp set of new ships for mining, and all you idiots can do is complain.
|
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Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
71
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 22:40:00 -
[511] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:Which is pure win in my view. Cargo-fit Hulks were pure FAIL nine times out of ten, and I secretly rejoiced every time a ganker killed one. If you can't be bothered to tank your ~400M ISK ship properly, you deserve to lose it. I'll meet you halfway on this one.... I also got a laugh every time a cargo-fit hulk got popped, especially in highsec, even though I did the same to mine. The big difference, to me, is that I knew exactly what tradeoff I was making, and that if a hostile came within two systems of me, I'd be passively aligning, getting ready to spam that warp button as soon as they showed up in local.
Quote:If you're a solo miner (or a dual-boxer), then of course the Mack is better than the Hulk. That's the point. The Retriever/Mack's role is a solo/small-gang mining hull. And it's actually possible to tank it properly without sacrificing yield, which is a huge plus over the old Hulk. Only so far... I'd still rather have the output of the hulk, since my dual-boxing config is generally me in the hulk, never leaving the belt, while my command ship alt either tanks or chains (depending on what spawned) and makes the change to a hauler every 1h55m. While I'm sure some will jump on me with "Well???!?! You've got your own personal hauler, why are you complaining about crystals???!!" comments, they're still missing the entire point that for a ship which is supposed to be the king of output, not being self-sufficient enough to carry the tools for the job is a pretty sorry state of affairs.
Quote:The Hulk used to be the end-all, be-all mining hull in EVE. Now it's not. The other hulls actually have a purpose in the game, and a smart miner is going to pick and choose which one to use depending on the mining op. Yes, lots won't and will simply use a Mack for everything, but lazy miners are a feature of EVE and always have been. Gankers will find a way to profitably kill them and I will continue to rejoice when this happens. Were people really using hulks for ice and mercox that much? Lots of folks keep harping on "hulks were the answer to everything," but I never saw it. Seems an awful waste to leave profit on the table.
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Zigne Nardieu
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 22:40:00 -
[512] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:Zigne Nardieu wrote:stuff Yet another dumbass who didn't read the patch notes, didn't actually think about what the mining ships do now, and can only express themselves in a badly-spelled stream-of-consciousness rant. CCP just gave you a massively pimp set of new ships for mining, and all you idiots can do is complain.
why are u even in this post? it is not aboute spelling dude? But great comment or not
What patch note did i not read :)? link, show? |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
452
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 22:46:00 -
[513] - Quote
Zigne Nardieu wrote:Idris Helion wrote:Zigne Nardieu wrote:stuff Yet another dumbass who didn't read the patch notes, didn't actually think about what the mining ships do now, and can only express themselves in a badly-spelled stream-of-consciousness rant. CCP just gave you a massively pimp set of new ships for mining, and all you idiots can do is complain. why are u even in this post? it is not aboute spelling dude? But great comment or not What patch note did i not read :)? link, show?
you mean all the dev blogs, sisi, etc...
the fact you people love to ***** and moan about things yet where was your feedback when it was on the test server, when the announcements came out in BOTH dev blogs etc?
honestly, the vast majority of people who are complaining about the barge changes are like people who complain about the government, and when you asked who they voted for tell you that they didn't vote.
well guess what, if you don't give your feedback saying you're unhappy with the proposed changes you have nobody but yourself to blame when the game gets changed in a way that you perceive to be negative. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 22:51:00 -
[514] - Quote
Atum wrote:Only so far... I'd still rather have the output of the hulk, since my dual-boxing config is generally me in the hulk, never leaving the belt, while my command ship alt either tanks or chains (depending on what spawned) and makes the change to a hauler every 1h55m. While I'm sure some will jump on me with "Well???!?! You've got your own personal hauler, why are you complaining about crystals???!!" comments, they're still missing the entire point that for a ship which is supposed to be the king of output, not being self-sufficient enough to carry the tools for the job is a pretty sorry state of affairs.
So anchor a secure can (or several) in the damned belt and stuff it full of crystals before you start your op. Of all the things to **** and moan about with the changes to the Hulk, this still strikes me as the lamest one.
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Zigne Nardieu
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 23:00:00 -
[515] - Quote
[/quote]
why are u even in this post? it is not aboute spelling dude? But great comment or not
What patch note did i not read :)? link, show?[/quote]
you mean all the dev blogs, sisi, etc...
the fact you people love to ***** and moan about things yet where was your feedback when it was on the test server, when the announcements came out in BOTH dev blogs etc?
honestly, the vast majority of people who are complaining about the barge changes are like people who complain about the government, and when you asked who they voted for tell you that they didn't vote.
well guess what, if you don't give your feedback saying you're unhappy with the proposed changes you have nobody but yourself to blame when the game gets changed in a way that you perceive to be negative.[/quote]
Well sorry i play on the real server and do not play on the test server? I KNOW aboute the dev blogs? but? how does that help me? " ohh i do not help me a all great anwser"
well it is just a bad patch? the way ccp want it to work is just supporting poor/bots/ afk miners... it is not improving the game a all... u are probaly just a happy carebear... great for u to be able to be afk in a ice belt in a h whit out doing any thing...
hulk's in 0.0 in small gank or solo miners die very fast if they get agro now from a bs... :/ the way i see it... it is just supporting the wrong things in the game... |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
71
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 23:02:00 -
[516] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:[So anchor a secure can (or several) in the damned belt and stuff it full of crystals before you start your op. Of all the things to **** and moan about with the changes to the Hulk, this still strikes me as the lamest one. Way back on page 4, I addressed this option. Basically, for a fixed planetary belt, using anchored secure works perfectly fine. You can (usually) strip the entire belt with only two or three warp-in bookmarks. For grav sites, though, it's a pain in the rear, since you'll need to either shuttle back and forth to the can in a ship slower than a freighter (well, ok, not quite THAT bad, but it feels like it sometimes), or re-ship either yourself or your multibox alt to move the stupid thing around. No matter which solution you choose, it's additional pain for negative return on time invested. |
BellaSina
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 23:11:00 -
[517] - Quote
The Hulk name doesn't really seem fitting any more. |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
457
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 04:15:00 -
[518] - Quote
Zigne Nardieu wrote: Well sorry i play on the real server and do not play on the test server? I KNOW aboute the dev blogs? but? how does that help me? " ohh i do not help me a all great anwser"
well it is just a bad patch? the way ccp want it to work is just supporting poor/bots/ afk miners... it is not improving the game a all... u are probaly just a happy carebear... great for u to be able to be afk in a ice belt in a h whit out doing any thing...
hulk's in 0.0 in small gank or solo miners die very fast if they get agro now from a bs... :/ the way i see it... it is just supporting the wrong things in the game...
i actually want to respond to you, but jesus christ google translator is your friend. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
160
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 05:56:00 -
[519] - Quote
Atum wrote:Idris Helion wrote:[So anchor a secure can (or several) in the damned belt and stuff it full of crystals before you start your op. Of all the things to **** and moan about with the changes to the Hulk, this still strikes me as the lamest one. Way back on page 4, I addressed this option. Basically, for a fixed planetary belt, using anchored secure works perfectly fine. You can (usually) strip the entire belt with only two or three warp-in bookmarks. For grav sites, though, it's a pain in the rear, since you'll need to either shuttle back and forth to the can in a ship slower than a freighter (well, ok, not quite THAT bad, but it feels like it sometimes), or re-ship either yourself or your multibox alt to move the stupid thing around. No matter which solution you choose, it's additional pain for negative return on time invested. you mean like how the "Large Asteroid Cluster" (the most valuable belt and the only one that anyone bothers mining out anyway) can be mined from two warp in points? you mean like that?
And yes, I know the other belts cant be mined like that, but the optimal strategy is to cherrypick the ABCM from the other belts and only mine out the Large Asteroid Cluster. If you're doing anything else, youre already being sub optimal so it doesnt matter what you do, because everything you do is already less than the best you could be doing. |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
71
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 11:35:00 -
[520] - Quote
Sigras wrote:And yes, I know the other belts cant be mined like that, but the optimal strategy is to cherrypick the ABCM from the other belts and only mine out the Large Asteroid Cluster. If you're doing anything else, youre already being sub optimal so it doesnt matter what you do, because everything you do is already less than the best you could be doing. This is the problem faced by USTZ miners everywhere... the Aussies, Russians, and Euros cherry pick everything before we have a chance to get in there |
|
olan2005
Homicidal Tendencees Ethereal Dawn
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 11:10:00 -
[521] - Quote
after seing t what the changes have done have to say u need to buff the hulk as it is suppose to have the best yield for the lowest tank however the risk v reward ration is crap the yeild diffrence should be above 20% of the rest of the exhumers as it has the weakest tank and smalles hold . this would make it more atractive right now its safer using mac and u dont have hit station as much even with a orca so its greater effecieny than a hulk to use macs and a orca then it is a hulk and orca right now even witn multiple accounts |
Er Lik
Locals Only
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 18:14:00 -
[522] - Quote
All rigs from mining barges should be 'unfit' by Eve and placed into your hanger. Come on Eve, DO THE RIGHT THING! |
Chea Elohe
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 19:51:00 -
[523] - Quote
It is open season on miners and it would be nice to add a decoy vessel that can use a strip miner but ore capacity is limited to one cycles.
Ore Bay: 1,300 m3
Drone Bay: 10,100 m3 This would be suficient drone space for 2 fighters and 10 medium drones.
The following would be sufficient for the fittings
CPU 375 Power Grid 1175
Hi Power 4 Turrent Slots one for mining support one would be used for the strip minner. Med 6 Slots Low 5 Slots
Compaciter 1,400 gj 375 Refresh rate
Max Targeting Range 56 Km Max Lockable Targets 4
Procurrer and the Skiff both give the solo user a better chance of survival and as a a newbe I like that. I would like to see one of these vessels modified with some teeth. During Late WWI and throughout WWII the allied forces modified heavy destroyers and crusers to look like friethers. I would like to see either the Skiff or the Procurrer modified to work the belts to take on those who have gotten used to tarketing the miners. It would add significant PVP action and give these individuals reason to reconsider targeting every minner the see.
Skill Training would be the gate keeper for this vessel as it should require Ship Command of 5 along with all the skills required for fighter qualification. The Default has two Fighters and 5 medium Drones or 10 small Drones. Carrier Skill level 2 with the needed modivication capability are required training requirement. This will also add a respectable fleet repair support vessel for later Faction Warfare. It depends on how we can balance the ship out to meet the mission goal. Story Line is very believable as I realy want a chance to return to pain to those who are tarketing me and my fellow minners.
Second Recommendation:
Modified Jets Can with Sensor and Improvised Smart Bomb. Again it is second nature for some to steal the containers. If this was the real world I believe every minor would be trying to research how to place an improvised weapon in the container that responds when a non-authorized vessle off-loads the can. The use of the smart bombs as a basis of the booby trap is the best place to start. This can be a research item for minners. The counter to this for the Rats is a hardened or Shielded Cargo Area. Depending on the Payload of the Booby Trap and the amount of ore taken with the device the damage area will include all vessles within 2500 mm of the weapon activation. Deployment of this type of can must be annouched in the tag or its use is an act of aggression. If the Tag gives the warning and is tipped then there is no aggression. Secondary damage to others within 2500 feet of the can is the responsibility of the other pilots. How the devices is cloaked and activated dictate if aggression occures. These and the types of devices need to be determined and balanced for game play. This is another action that would make the minner much happier and give the newbe's a |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
530
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 03:32:00 -
[524] - Quote
Atum wrote:Sigras wrote:And yes, I know the other belts cant be mined like that, but the optimal strategy is to cherrypick the ABCM from the other belts and only mine out the Large Asteroid Cluster. If you're doing anything else, youre already being sub optimal so it doesnt matter what you do, because everything you do is already less than the best you could be doing. This is the problem faced by USTZ miners everywhere... the Aussies, Russians, and Euros cherry pick everything before we have a chance to get in there Tough
We have to put up with US spelling here so you can have depleted belts ingame Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Atum
Eclipse Industrials STR8NGE BREW
71
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 03:35:00 -
[525] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Atum wrote:Sigras wrote:And yes, I know the other belts cant be mined like that, but the optimal strategy is to cherrypick the ABCM from the other belts and only mine out the Large Asteroid Cluster. If you're doing anything else, youre already being sub optimal so it doesnt matter what you do, because everything you do is already less than the best you could be doing. This is the problem faced by USTZ miners everywhere... the Aussies, Russians, and Euros cherry pick everything before we have a chance to get in there Tough We have to put up with US spelling here so you can have depleted belts ingame At least I've got all my natural teeth |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
104
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 17:52:00 -
[526] - Quote
I'm OK with the new the designs, but the way they were implemented on the old models is just plain fugly.
I know, this is mostly a rp thing again, but if you had designed these ships from scratch, you would not have done it like this, and you (hopefully) know it.
I mean, here is the Hulk: a ship designed for superiour mining yield. It lacks good defenses or a large cargo bay, but despite that and being the biggest ship of the three, is has the lowest yield per turret of the 3 ships. Now how does that make sense? The biggest ship has no room for the amazing 1-turret-mines-as-3 tech despite not having defenses or large ore bay?
It would have made more sense if you applied the Hulk stats to the Skiff model and vice versa (while keeping the Skiff 1-turret-as-3 bonus on the skiff of course), it would still be cheap and ugly, but at least it would make more sense.
And why so cheap anyway, you design combat ships quite regularly, why do the miners get this cheap solution? Aren't they worthy of new models? Got a need for speed? SRV race thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134270 Sub-warp racing event thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107164 |
Spice Flow
Spice Industrys
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 09:09:00 -
[527] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:Zigne Nardieu wrote:stuff Idris Helion > said... Yet another dumbass who didn't read the patch notes, didn't actually think about what the mining ships do now, and can only express themselves in a badly-spelled stream-of-consciousness rant. CCP just gave you a massively pimp set of new ships for mining, and all you idiots can do is complain.
Look who's complaining and using derogatory statements. |
nardaq
Orion Expeditions
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:12:00 -
[528] - Quote
Spice Flow wrote:Idris Helion > [....] CCP just gave you a massively pimp set of new ships for mining, and all you idiots can do is complain.
"you idiots" You're a PVPer, or a ice/empire miner or a cheap abc farmer.
You've no idea how this small cargo is a logistic nightmare for multi boxers when I'm (read myself) is the hauler to.
|
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
221
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 21:29:00 -
[529] - Quote
Yesterday I saw a Retriever take on and win against a Catalyst outside of a station.
I lolled heartily and realised CCP have done a good job |
Spice Flow
Spice Industrys
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 04:10:00 -
[530] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:Yesterday I saw a Retriever take on and win against a Catalyst outside of a station. I lolled heartily and realised CCP have done a good job
First. Must have been a younger player (character)... A properly made Catalyst with the proper skills can pump out some DPS... any good ganker knows this and how to fit right.
Second. An experienced ganker knows not to gank near stations or jump gates... this might have been a different story in an asteroid belt.
FYI... I am not a ganker but it pays to know a little on how things work to help defend myself. |
|
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
222
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 15:31:00 -
[531] - Quote
Spice Flow wrote:First. Must have been a younger player (character)... A properly made Catalyst with the proper skills can pump out some DPS... any good ganker knows this and how to fit right.
Second. An experienced ganker knows not to gank near stations or jump gates... this might have been a different story in an asteroid belt.
FYI... I am not a ganker but it pays to know a little on how things work to help defend myself.
Tbh, I think they were war targets rather than the Cat pilot being a suicide ganker, as there was no Concord involved as per a usual gank.
And from that I infer that the Cat was probably a rail cat for a newish PVE character.
Still was amusing to see though :) |
Yui Okane-Mochi
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 10:32:00 -
[532] - Quote
Chea Elohe wrote: It is open season on miners and it would be nice to add a decoy vessel...
Skiff already does a great job. Went mining during war in a skiff with long point, dual webs and the invulns off to appear like an easy kill. WT in cruiser decided to aggro and found himself tied down, and when backup arrived, very dead. Local was strangely free of the usual smack after that.
That the name of the skiff was Ackbar One should have raised some suspicions. :)
t¦ÉFíú |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
581
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 11:50:00 -
[533] - Quote
Yui Okane-Mochi wrote:Chea Elohe wrote: It is open season on miners and it would be nice to add a decoy vessel... Skiff already does a great job. Went mining during war in a skiff with long point, dual webs and the invulns off to appear like an easy kill. WT in cruiser decided to aggro and found himself tied down, and when backup arrived, very dead. Local was strangely free of the usual smack after that. That the name of the skiff was Ackbar One should have raised some suspicions. :) t¦ÉFíú
80k ehp and 188 dps isn't to be sneezed at, certainly
Sure, solo you'll probably die, but it's fun as bait. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Chea Elohe
Sandline Industries Junk Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 11:52:00 -
[534] - Quote
Yui Okane-Mochi wrote:Chea Elohe wrote: It is open season on miners and it would be nice to add a decoy vessel... Skiff already does a great job. Went mining during war in a skiff with long point, dual webs and the invulns off to appear like an easy kill. WT in cruiser decided to aggro and found himself tied down, and when backup arrived, very dead. Local was strangely free of the usual smack after that. That the name of the skiff was Ackbar One should have raised some suspicions. :) t¦ÉFíú
Sounds good if you have a Corp that is Combat Smart. Many if not most miners do so alone or with an alt. Per the current CCP rules any one can steal a can and you have the right to attack. However, if you attack you get no support for anyone. I am talking about non-corporate players. There are also those corporations that include a collection of friends who want to mine and not to fight rigged battles. Yes the changes are spectacular as they stand it is a major step in the right direction. There is a mush better chance of survival for the lone user in the Skiff and the Procurrer. This is true and was needed. How ever CCP should be fair and real. If this were in any nation that had miners protecting their claim what would they do? I am a student of history and even a grammer school student could tell you of the traps used during the great meneral rushs in Alaska, Canada and the United States. Yes in our cities today setting up a death trap is illegal. I do not know the reason the game developers do not listen and give the miners a means of making us a less attrative target. Creation of a Decoy Vessel was used during Late WWI and WWII and it worked well for the Allies but the Acess adjusted there strategy and developed the pack to counter the threat of meeting up with an armed destroyer. That is real world this is a game. Some Gangers do it because it is easy credits. Those are the target of the decoy operation. Full trained, armed and fited teams will eat up even the best designed decoy vessel. The size of the ships prevent you from having a true carrier or battleship be modified to appear as a minning vessle. The vessle has to be able to mine as the easy test of the Ganger would be to sit around and see if it mines. As part of the Game the creation of the Decoy Vessel could be made part of a story line research that begines with one miner going from one research facility to another to develope an array of can tippers and gang deterants. Not as to off balance the game but as it is right now miners are the foot balls and anyone else can kick us around. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
548
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 02:57:00 -
[535] - Quote
Atum wrote:At least I've got all my natural teeth I might, it just depends on your definition of "my" Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Tinytacohead
AirwolfSquad
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 17:58:00 -
[536] - Quote
Thanks CCP for totally ruining the Hulk for us little guys. May as well sell both of mine, as they're now parked indefinitely. (with their t2 cargo rigs) It seems every big patch brings negative changes these days. Not sure how much longer I'll put up with the BS this game's slowly evolving into, heh. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
582
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 18:07:00 -
[537] - Quote
Tinytacohead wrote:Thanks CCP for totally ruining the Hulk for us little guys. May as well sell both of mine, as they're now parked indefinitely. (with their t2 cargo rigs) It seems every big patch brings negative changes these days. Not sure how much longer I'll put up with the BS this game's slowly evolving into, heh.
How's the Mack working out for you? As it'll have a higher yield than a cargo fit hulk. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
47
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 21:03:00 -
[538] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:I'm OK with the new the designs, but the way they were implemented on the old models is just plain fugly. I know, this is mostly a rp thing again, but if you had designed these ships from scratch, you would not have done it like this, and you (hopefully) know it. I mean, here is the Hulk: a ship designed for superiour mining yield. It lacks good defenses or a large cargo bay, but despite that and being the biggest ship of the three, is has the lowest yield per turret of the 3 ships. Now how does that make sense? The biggest ship has no room for the amazing 1-turret-mines-as-3 tech despite not having defenses or large ore bay? It would have made more sense if you applied the Hulk stats to the Skiff model and vice versa (while keeping the Skiff 1-turret-as-3 bonus on the skiff of course), it would still be cheap and ugly, but at least it would make more sense. And why so cheap anyway, you design combat ships quite regularly, why do the miners get this cheap solution? Aren't they worthy of new models?
I mentioned that, too, but it was not heard by CCP |
Loose End
The Big Bambu
32
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 19:04:00 -
[539] - Quote
Been a miner since 07 and this is a wonderful change for the better and overdue. I think the gap between the Mack and the Hulk should have been wider for mining but since you tweaked the Hulk up for Ice then it's okay by me. Just a role reversal. By Jove's hairy nuggets you fish hugging technodorks did something right by my thoughts.
To you nice guys out there whinging about the changes? Adapt. This is EVE and not WoW. While Blizzard cuddles and nurses you until you want to vomit and waffles back and forth about decisions while charging you for expansions(at least they did in 06), CCP has been changing the field. I think the learning skills could have stayed. I think the racial bonus's should have stayed too. But we all adapted or we climbed out of our spaceships and put our diapers back on and went to suck a Blizzard nip.
To the guys who used to jump in a Catalyst and go gank someone?....now you have to train a little. And that was the point. No longer can you just jump in a account and train for a month to go kill a ship that it took months to qualify for and longer to really fly well. Exhumers are still killable....just not by three day old accounts.
Adapt or just go away....really far away....where I don't have to hear the whingeing.
Decoys. Great idea. I proposed one a while back. Proposed another one for POS's too. Still a good idea building ships out of wood and patching them with aluminium foil to make them look good on Radar.
Have an idea for a ship too...so does every other pilot out there. Wrong forum though.
Back to CCP...nice job. Now get rid of the inventory and put the real one back...April Fool is long over. |
Spice Flow
Spice Industrys
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:52:00 -
[540] - Quote
Loose End wrote:Been a miner since 07 and this is a wonderful change for the better and overdue. I think the gap between the Mack and the Hulk should have been wider for mining but since you tweaked the Hulk up for Ice then it's okay by me. Just a role reversal. By Jove's hairy nuggets you fish hugging technodorks did something right by my thoughts.
To you nice guys out there whinging about the changes? Adapt. This is EVE and not WoW. While Blizzard cuddles and nurses you until you want to vomit and waffles back and forth about decisions while charging you for expansions(at least they did in 06), CCP has been changing the field. I think the learning skills could have stayed. I think the racial bonus's should have stayed too. But we all adapted or we climbed out of our spaceships and put our diapers back on and went to suck a Blizzard nip.
To the guys who used to jump in a Catalyst and go gank someone?....now you have to train a little. And that was the point. No longer can you just jump in a account and train for a month to go kill a ship that it took months to qualify for and longer to really fly well. Exhumers are still killable....just not by three day old accounts.
Adapt or just go away....really far away....where I don't have to hear the whingeing.
Decoys. Great idea. I proposed one a while back. Proposed another one for POS's too. Still a good idea building ships out of wood and patching them with aluminium foil to make them look good on Radar.
Have an idea for a ship too...so does every other pilot out there. Wrong forum though.
Back to CCP...nice job. Now get rid of the inventory and put the real one back...April Fool is long over. Oh come on... you just get done insulting people about their opinion(s) on the changes calling them whiners and more, then to still have ideas to change the way it is now, then to ridicule past changes, and what makes you think CCP is going to listen to you for future changes , then you finish off with your own whining... unbelievable... maybe you should take your own advice and GÇ£Adapt or just go away....really far away....where I don't have to hear the whining.GÇ¥ Again, Unbelievable. |
|
Rock Archiriu
Inter Planetary Productions Reborn Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 11:22:00 -
[541] - Quote
Madam Isk wrote:Will existing hulks get their rig's "refunded"? I'm sure I'm not the only one that invested in T2 cargo rigs for my hulk that are now worthless so I'm hoping they will be de-equipped so I can sell or re-purpose them.
I second this. As to prior patches, where stuff was made useless was removed from ships and put in nearest clone-station, this should also be done to the Cargo-rigs on barges and exhumers. should one or two like to have them fit ON for bigger cargo room, then they can, but most would deff. not do this, and find another and better place for it.
The "Excuse" they (CCP PM's) have made so far is, that they still fullfill their purpose of bigger cargo space to utilize. That is Crap, as Cargo-rigs on these ships where only fitted for the purpose of having more Ore in the hold. With the new Ore-hold, the Cargo-rigs are now utterly Useless for the intentted purpose they where put there in the first place.
Easy way to surcumvent this "issue" would be, to have Cargo-rigs be removable (Read: Not Destroyed in the progress) for the timeframe of XX days, and THEN they would have to stay fit or manually destroyed by the owner/user of the craft by own choice.
Best regards
Rock is the Past, present and Future wealth to the 'EVE-verse. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
189
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 23:06:00 -
[542] - Quote
Rock Archiriu wrote:Madam Isk wrote:Will existing hulks get their rig's "refunded"? I'm sure I'm not the only one that invested in T2 cargo rigs for my hulk that are now worthless so I'm hoping they will be de-equipped so I can sell or re-purpose them. I second this. As to prior patches, where stuff was made useless was removed from ships and put in nearest clone-station, this should also be done to the Cargo-rigs on barges and exhumers. should one or two like to have them fit ON for bigger cargo room, then they can, but most would deff. not do this, and find another and better place for it. The "Excuse" they (CCP PM's) have made so far is, that they still fullfill their purpose of bigger cargo space to utilize. That is Crap, as Cargo-rigs on these ships where only fitted for the purpose of having more Ore in the hold. With the new Ore-hold, the Cargo-rigs are now utterly Useless for the intentted purpose they where put there in the first place. Easy way to surcumvent this "issue" would be, to have Cargo-rigs be removable (Read: Not Destroyed in the progress) for the timeframe of XX days, and THEN they would have to stay fit or manually destroyed by the owner/user of the craft by own choice. Best regards
Rock is the Past, present and Future wealth to the 'EVE-verse.
or have them apply to ore holds ... which i cant see them be a terrible thing across the ships that have ore holds and use them. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Ships to goo calc - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107898 |
Zeruma
stooge in plain sight
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 08:38:00 -
[543] - Quote
I am so very sorry you only get a 35,000m3 ore hold |
Spice Flow
Spice Industrys
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 04:45:00 -
[544] - Quote
Zeruma wrote:I am so very sorry you only get a 35,000m3 ore hold
...and yet another one speaks up gratuitously with shallow facetious commenting. |
Jared Tobin
Bloodstone Industries B.S.I.
200
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 17:50:00 -
[545] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:We have to put up with US spelling here so you can have depleted belts ingame
I'm curious... how do you spell "defense" or "defence"?
Because the Eve databse is jumbled with a mix of both... Not that I see any relevance about spellings when discussing mining vessel issues, but, just as an example (as of 2012) that have the non-American spelling ("defense"):
Large Core Defence Capacitor Safeguard I Large Core Defence Capacitor Safeguard II Large Core Defence Charge Economizer I Large Core Defence Charge Economizer II Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Purger I Large Core Defence Field Purger II Large Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Large Core Defence Operational Solidifier II Medium Core Defence Operational Solidifier II Medium Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Medium Core Defence Field Purger II Medium Core Defence Field Purger I Medium Core Defence Field Extender II Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
...There are also a mixture of spellings in mission and item descriptions as well.
Can't anyone stay on point in this century?
I can read over words fine. I'm more affected by functionality.
|
Loose End
The Big Bambu
32
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 20:54:00 -
[546] - Quote
Spice Flow wrote:Loose End wrote:Been a miner since 07 and this is a wonderful change for the better and overdue. I think the gap between the Mack and the Hulk should have been wider for mining but since you tweaked the Hulk up for Ice then it's okay by me. Just a role reversal. By Jove's hairy nuggets you fish hugging technodorks did something right by my thoughts.
To you nice guys out there whinging about the changes? Adapt. This is EVE and not WoW. While Blizzard cuddles and nurses you until you want to vomit and waffles back and forth about decisions while charging you for expansions(at least they did in 06), CCP has been changing the field. I think the learning skills could have stayed. I think the racial bonus's should have stayed too. But we all adapted or we climbed out of our spaceships and put our diapers back on and went to suck a Blizzard nip.
To the guys who used to jump in a Catalyst and go gank someone?....now you have to train a little. And that was the point. No longer can you just jump in a account and train for a month to go kill a ship that it took months to qualify for and longer to really fly well. Exhumers are still killable....just not by three day old accounts.
Adapt or just go away....really far away....where I don't have to hear the whingeing.
Decoys. Great idea. I proposed one a while back. Proposed another one for POS's too. Still a good idea building ships out of wood and patching them with aluminium foil to make them look good on Radar.
Have an idea for a ship too...so does every other pilot out there. Wrong forum though.
Back to CCP...nice job. Now get rid of the inventory and put the real one back...April Fool is long over. Oh come on... you just get done insulting people about their opinion(s) on the changes calling them whiners and more, then to still have ideas to change the way it is now, then to ridicule past changes, and what makes you think CCP is going to listen to you for future changes , then you finish off with your own whining... unbelievable... maybe you should take your own advice and GÇ£Adapt or just go away....really far away...GÇ¥ Again, Unbelievable. some folks just can't see the sarcasm for the trees
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Loose End
The Big Bambu
32
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Posted - 2012.09.04 21:15:00 -
[547] - Quote
Spice Flow wrote:Zeruma wrote:I am so very sorry you only get a 35,000m3 ore hold ...and yet another one speaks up gratuitously with shallow facetious commenting. and more mountains from molehills... it's not a big deal. Trust me. If you're so damned upset then go play a different game. I have bpo's for rigs I've never used since they did the size variances changes. Do I care? No. It's just imaginary money in an imaginary Universe. Try to not take it too seriously. Someone might mistake it for whinging. |
IMIR31D
Darthrin Storm Enterprise Synthetic Systems
0
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Posted - 2012.09.05 09:51:00 -
[548] - Quote
AS much as I support the expansion and help granted to the Eve Online mining community, in recent weeks I have been tracing up and following a rather serious problem that has become attached to this new ship Revamp. I play from the markets all across New Eden and in my travels and recent market studies have shown me that this revamping of mining ships is beginning to cause a market collapse. the supply of subsequent ORE sellers is sky-rocketing and has not been matched by a level increase in demand by the Buyers. this problem is soon going to result in a drop in ORE prices and an increase in ship building, the over all result will then be followed by a mass injection of ships into the market due to the cheaply available resources and carry on up the economic chain, and unless the miners then abruptly stop, we could be facing a collapse across a large portion of the markets. and all because of a ship revamp... |
Spice Flow
Spice Industrys
3
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Posted - 2012.09.06 04:14:00 -
[549] - Quote
Loose End wrote:Spice Flow wrote:Zeruma wrote:I am so very sorry you only get a 35,000m3 ore hold ...and yet another one speaks up gratuitously with shallow facetious commenting. and more mountains from molehills... it's not a big deal. Trust me. If you're so damned upset then go play a different game. I have bpo's for rigs I've never used since they did the size variances changes. Do I care? No. It's just imaginary money in an imaginary Universe. Try to not take it too seriously. Someone might mistake it for whinging.
If it is not a big deal to you, then why are you here insulting others, or are you just a troll? |
Spice Flow
Spice Industrys
3
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Posted - 2012.09.06 04:42:00 -
[550] - Quote
IMIR31D wrote:AS much as I support the expansion and help granted to the Eve Online mining community, in recent weeks I have been tracing up and following a rather serious problem that has become attached to this new ship Revamp. I play from the markets all across New Eden and in my travels and recent market studies have shown me that this revamping of mining ships is beginning to cause a market collapse. the supply of subsequent ORE sellers is sky-rocketing and has not been matched by a level increase in demand by the Buyers. this problem is soon going to result in a drop in ORE prices and an increase in ship building, the over all result will then be followed by a mass injection of ships into the market due to the cheaply available resources and carry on up the economic chain, and unless the miners then abruptly stop, we could be facing a collapse across a large portion of the markets. and all because of a ship revamp... I also have watched the ore prices on the market... not only what you are saying, I believe I have noticed that there are smaller ore amounts available in one spot (all spread out with smaller orders), creating a manufactures nightmare, making a would-be-buyer jump to many systems to get enough, especially for large scale manufacturing, e.g. battleships or any other large ships or multiple amounts. |
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Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
174
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Posted - 2012.09.07 15:19:00 -
[551] - Quote
Spice Flow, I would invite you to unleash the mighty power of the "Buy Order" if you want your production supplies brought to you.
More small sell orders in more systems should be opening up trading opportunities for newish traders rather than creating an annoyance for manufacturers.
It also points to more people mining, which seems to have been a large portion of the intent of the change to begin with. |
Mistokus Zeebleboops
Pave the Way Enterprises
1
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Posted - 2012.10.23 20:20:00 -
[552] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Rock Archiriu wrote:Madam Isk wrote:Will existing hulks get their rig's "refunded"? I'm sure I'm not the only one that invested in T2 cargo rigs for my hulk that are now worthless so I'm hoping they will be de-equipped so I can sell or re-purpose them. I second this. As to prior patches, where stuff was made useless was removed from ships and put in nearest clone-station, this should also be done to the Cargo-rigs on barges and exhumers. should one or two like to have them fit ON for bigger cargo room, then they can, but most would deff. not do this, and find another and better place for it. The "Excuse" they (CCP PM's) have made so far is, that they still fullfill their purpose of bigger cargo space to utilize. That is Crap, as Cargo-rigs on these ships where only fitted for the purpose of having more Ore in the hold. With the new Ore-hold, the Cargo-rigs are now utterly Useless for the intentted purpose they where put there in the first place. Easy way to surcumvent this "issue" would be, to have Cargo-rigs be removable (Read: Not Destroyed in the progress) for the timeframe of XX days, and THEN they would have to stay fit or manually destroyed by the owner/user of the craft by own choice. Best regards
Rock is the Past, present and Future wealth to the 'EVE-verse. or have them apply to ore holds ... which i cant see them be a terrible thing across the ships that have ore holds and use them.
mmm yea, for the most part every ship I have used for mining, I have spent money on cargohold optimizations for.. and now they're useless to original intent.. I was wondering wtf.. bit of GUI redesign is in order.. I didn't see and update tab, as well, I remember clicking on the cargo icon in the fittings window and it brings you to cargohold.. it has been months, I've forgotten what I changed my shortcuts too. Anyway, I was wondering why I had 462.9 in my cargohold and could swear I had been mining for a minute or two and nothing was going into the hold.
A refund would be nice, we're talking quite a bit of ISK.. esp if I applied to all ships.. my hulk is still decent, but wtf with the cargo rigs?! useless to me now, really..
I'm still annoyed with the cargo changes, I dock in a station and change ships and the old cargohold shows where I park it in the lower left, I open current cargohold (curr ship) and need to manipulate the windows around. Prefer the old way, when you change ship the open cargohold window changes.
Thanks in advance.
I don't kiss ass, I kick it!!!
I got worms ..-á
EveAdventures.com |
Nemesis Bosseret
Dysfunctional Nocturnal Rejects Insane Asylum
2
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Posted - 2012.11.05 06:05:00 -
[553] - Quote
well, god knows how many messages later complaining about the update..... someone would think it was a bone head idea... and something i have yet to see, any improvements on catching bot miners like i quoted ummm like 4 or 5 pages ago or months i lost count... they are still rampent and getting worse... alot have complained about cargo capacity of the hulk being nerfed.. umm frankly tough Sh!t if ur mining with a hulk u should be using an orca anyways because ur a tard to not with the mining bonuses u get from one will easly pay for both accounts. my biggest widest complain is the nerf on ice mining.. and i do fore see long term damaging effects of this, besides causing ice prices to eventually climb once CCP figgures out how to kill the bots and macro miners, the sheer value of ice is worth dirt and is more time effecent to mine ore then sell it and buy the ice mats off the market than it is to mine it urself with several friends... this nerf will make it damn near impossible to cheaply produce any ship especially capitals and make it even harder for low sec corps to make moves into nul with capital support if its costing them too much to fuel there stuff in low while in the mean time nul sec ice is ten time more profitable and capable of sustaining towers which makes it easier for nul sec alliances and corps to maintain the control they already have...... either way i dont care because ill find a way to over come this issue but is going to kinda **** me off because finding them retards that think they can fly caps and are gods because they have one but got no flippen clue on how to pvp that much harder to find.... this is very depressing.... common guys i want some cap kills on my killboard..... especially the solo kind........ GRRRRRR |
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