stabber fleet changes are a bit odd imo. mass penalty but a reduction in armour and hull with a random shield increase.

might work better with a reduction in shield hp and a slight buff to armour hp that will fit with the mass penalty.

edit:

Scythe Fleet Issue: This is my attempt to redeem the Minmatar split weapons tradition. Instead of forcing both weapon systems it gives both as viable choices.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
10% bonus to Missile damage

this is not good btw

Augoror gets a 25% damage bonus per level?

Augoror gets a 25% damage bonus per level?

Is this a typo?

FIRST.

Omen Navy Issue: Turning this ship into a much more mobile ship with an optimal bonus, much like a giant Slicer.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
Slot layout: 5(-1) H, 3 M, 7 L, 4(-1) turrets
Fittings: 965 PWG, 335 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1800(-416) / 2250(-463) / 2250(-428)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-500s)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1650(+25) / 520s(+55.9s) / 3.17(-0.3)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 265(+73) / 0.43(-0.11) / 10850000(-800,000) / 6.47s(-2.25)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+25) / 50(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 57.5km(+12.5) / 320(+27) / 7(-1)
Sensor strength: 17(+1) Radar
Signature radius: 100(-12)
Cargo capacity: 400(+150)

why nerf omen navy so bad?its superbad as it is atm,the rest seem to be improved to fullfil a purpose


scythe fleet needs 6 hs 3 turrets/3 launcher or kill the split weapon system/

My comment from the CSM forums:

Omen and Aug have the same slot layout, might be nice to switch one of them up. Maybe trade a low for a mid on the omen, since it is supposed to be more speedy, and might want dual webs or something.

Important note: unlike all my previous ship stat displays of this type, we're using align time at 0 skills instead of the old ones which were at level 5 skills. This makes the whole thing consistent (all the other stats are displayed for 0 skills) but means that you can't directly compare align times to my past ship change posts.!

Why don't you use all at lvl V for ALL things?

Everyone else uses all at lvl V as standard for EVERYTHING.. When was the last time someone told you how much EHP his ship had without any skills?

What the stats are at 0 is a real bother and makes it really hard to figure out what any changes actually mean.

why nerf omen navy so bad?its superbad as it is atm,the rest seem to be improved to fullfil a purpose


scythe fleet needs 6 hs 3 turrets/3 launcher or kill the split weapon system/

why nerf omen navy so bad?its superbad as it is atm,the rest seem to be improved to fullfil a purpose

My comment from the CSM forums:

Omen and Aug have the same slot layout, might be nice to switch one of them up. Maybe trade a low for a mid on the omen, since it is supposed to be more speedy, and might want dual webs or something.

It's so that you can plug the raw stats in to eveHQ or similar...

Is there any point in training T2 ships any more?

Who the **** uses eve HQ?

Have you actually flown a fleet with Navy Omens? They rock now and this patch will only make them better. A range bonus is going to be great for the ship.

And in exchange it gets its tank and DPS massively nerfed

so wrong it hurts. DPS gets a slight bonus (not including drones)

Current bonus is an effective 50% bonus to DPS

New bonus is a 50% flat bonus to damage

And it loses a gun

Do the math

My concerns with these changes, which are by-and-large pretty good, is the absolute slap in the face given to the Omen Navy Issue.

Currently it has a -7.5 rate of fire bonus and 5 turrets, giving it the equivalent damage of 8 turrets with the cap usage of 4. After these changes it will have the equivalent damage of 6 turrets with the same cap usage, gaining only an optimal range increase in compensation -- one that it must share with the already-popular Zealot.

Additional speed notwithstanding, this just doesn't feel like a great change to me. Sure, it has drones over the Zealot, but the Zealot was already popular over the Nomen when it had 40 meters of dronebay and only 4% less gun damage; when it gains only 10 meters of dronebay and the Zealot outguns it by 39% with the same optimal bonus, I don't think this is going to change much.

Nor do I think that "we will deal with the Zealot in a future balance pass" is a very good excuse for this. I can't think why anyone would complain that the Zealot isn't a very decently balanced ship.

I was expecting to see something along the lines of "We think the Omen Navy Issue is a great example of a fairly solid navy cruiser to begin with, so we just gave it a tad bit of speed and tweaked its hitpoints a little leaving its function largely intact." That's something that I would be interested in flying in the future and would expect to see flying around.

My concerns with these changes, which are by-and-large pretty good, is the absolute slap in the face given to the Omen Navy Issue.

Currently it has a -7.5 rate of fire bonus and 5 turrets, giving it the equivalent damage of 8 turrets with the cap usage of 4. After these changes it will have the equivalent damage of 6 turrets with the same cap usage, gaining only an optimal range increase in compensation -- one that it must share with the already-popular Zealot.

Additional speed notwithstanding, this just doesn't feel like a great change to me. Sure, it has drones over the Zealot, but the Zealot was already popular over the Nomen when it had 40 meters of dronebay and only 4% less gun damage; when it gains only 10 meters of dronebay and the Zealot outguns it by 39% with the same optimal bonus, I don't think this is going to change much.

Nor do I think that "we will deal with the Zealot in a future balance pass" is a very good excuse for this. I can't think why anyone would complain that the Zealot isn't a very decently balanced ship.

I was expecting to see something along the lines of "We think the Omen Navy Issue is a great example of a fairly solid navy cruiser to begin with, so we just gave it a tad bit of speed and tweaked its hitpoints a little leaving its function largely intact." That's something that I would be interested in flying in the future and would expect to see flying around.

BTW, Fozzie, did you mean for the Navy Osprey to only have four launchers? That would give it less dps than the T1 caracal, even when using kinetic missiles...

Minmatar really are getting nerfed to ****. I'm dreading when hacs get the rebalancing treatment (slower vagas?). Minmatar are getting slower, and will be hurt by the nerf to Tracking Enhancers as well.

The whole point of Minmatar is to be fast glass cannons and it seems like they are becoming slow, poorly tanked brawlers.

SFI is also used somewhat effectively as a heavy tackler in ahacs, which will almost become non-existent now due to the nerf to armor.

What Minmatar are supposed to be as a race needs to be re-looked at by Fozzy, because all I have seen is bad things coming to Minmatar ships. Every Minmatar ships re-balance is a dissapointment....

omen navy getting less turret damage than it already HAS. and less hitpoints than its RIVAL THE STABBER FLEET in every category. and the stabber fleet is untouched? seruiosly

UNACCEPTABLE. this makes no sense that the top of the line amarr navy cruiser has LESS ARMOR THAN ITS RIVAL.

The Navy Aug is the new Amarr brawler:

6.75 effective Turrets
2 medium Neuts
AB
Medium cap booster
Scram
1600 mm plate
EANM x 2
DC
HS x 2
TE
Trimarks x 3

The current NOmen is not going to be able to compete with that. They HAD to go Sniper with it.

i thought the idea of faction ships was to have a straight improvement to the T1 counterpart (if there is one). Best example is probably the navy apoc. I am not sure if i like the idea that the faction variants now get a distinct role to the T1 hull across the board.

i thought the idea of faction ships was to have a straight improvement to the T1 counterpart (if there is one). Best example is probably the navy apoc. I am not sure if i like the idea that the faction variants now get a distinct role to the T1 hull across the board.

One more thread today before I start the Easter vacation (Iceland is awesome).

And it's Navy Cruiser time! We're going to be doing a comprehensive pass on the Navy Cruisers as well as the already

Caracal Navy Issue: Finds a niche as the heavier version of the Caracal, more suited to brawling than kiting.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus Rapid Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire
5% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile explosion radius

Exequror Navy Issue: Keeping the same role for this one, as a high damage blasterboat with the two damage bonuses. Adding an extra highslot and turret increases damage even further. It's fast and hard hitting but the lack of the Thorax's tracking bonus hurts.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret rate of fire
Slot layout: 5 H(+1), 4 M(+1), 6 L(+1), 5(+1) turrets
Fittings: 830(+70) PWG, 340(+60) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1800(+428) / 1950(+474) / 2550(+863)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-200)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1500(+125) / 490s(-1.25) / 3(+0.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 255(+7) / 0.4 (-0.037) / 11280000(-260,000) / 6.25s(-0.74)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(+5) / 25(+5)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47.5km / 325(+3) / 7(+1)
Sensor strength: 18(+3) Magnetometric
Signature radius: 110(+2)
Cargo capacity: 465 (+200)

My concerns with these changes, which are by-and-large pretty good, is the absolute slap in the face given to the Omen Navy Issue.

I was expecting to see something along the lines of "We think the Omen Navy Issue is a great example of a fairly solid navy cruiser to begin with, so we just gave it a tad bit of speed and tweaked its hitpoints a little leaving its function largely intact." That's something that I would be interested in flying in the future and would expect to see flying around..

New launcher group? faster firing light launcher for cruisers?

Also, the decision to "redeem" the split weapon bonuses on the Scythe has resulted in...two weapon bonuses? You know that when a hull only receives two hardcoded bonuses, and when both of those bonuses are for different weapons, you realize that is still "split", right?

Am I missing something, or did you mean something else besides "redeem"? Because I don't see a whole lot of that happening here.

Really confused at your choices for the Minmatar ships.

Giving bonuses to other ships = YAY!

Nerfing the one good Navy ship = ???

This is one of those instances where you actually don't need to take a step back, you know?

Also, the decision to "redeem" the split weapon bonuses on the Scythe has resulted in...two weapon bonuses? You know that when a hull only receives two hardcoded bonuses, and when both of those bonuses are for different weapons, you realize that is still "split", right?

Am I missing something, or did you mean something else besides "redeem"? Because I don't see a whole lot of that happening here.

I can't help but feel like people are looking at the optimal bonus like it's a non-bonus because it doesn't affect the pretty EFT number. It's one of the most powerful bonuses in the game - especially on a laser ship. I'm super excited by the new NOmen, and if it's as bad as you claim then we will see them adjust it some in a polish pass.

-Liang

Well the issue is keeping a distinction between NOmen and Zealot. Everyone loves optimal bonuses, however having 2 extremely similar boats is not that useful.

They aren't extremely similar.

-Liang

Omen Navy Issue: Turning this ship into a much more mobile ship with an optimal bonus, much like a giant Slicer.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
Slot layout: 5(-1) H, 3 M, 7 L, 4(-1) turrets
Fittings: 965 PWG, 335 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1800(-416) / 2250(-463) / 2250(-428)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-500s)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1650(+25) / 520s(+55.9s) / 3.17(-0.3)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 265(+73) / 0.43(-0.11) / 10850000(-800,000) / 6.47s(-2.25)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+25) / 50(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 57.5km(+12.5) / 320(+27) / 7(-1)
Sensor strength: 17(+1) Radar
Signature radius: 100(-12)
Cargo capacity: 400(+150)

Sort of agree with that as well, doesn't really make sense giving them weird roles that are so drastically different from their T1 variants. They are just supposed to be slightly superior ships that the Factions use, not completely different.

The scythe needs a 3rd bonus, otherwise its the same issue split weapon systems have always had.

I suggest 3% sig reduction/level

aside from velocity and cap recharge rate, these are extremely similar...
In this respect, the NOmen would just replace a zealot in fleets, so I really hope either the NOmen is left distinct from the zealot, or the zealot gets changed to compensate for the NOmen doing it's job better.

aside from velocity and cap recharge rate, these are extremely similar...
In this respect, the NOmen would just replace a zealot in fleets, so I really hope either the NOmen is left distinct from the zealot, or the zealot gets changed to compensate for the NOmen doing it's job better.

I don't agree with adding more drones to it and removing a turret, but that's not our call. I'd rather see the drones completely removed and the turret added back in.

Why are you guys complaining about scythe!!!!

10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire

Do you know what this means?

Thats 8 effective turrets for you.

Also it will go 2400+ without any boosts, snakes just with MWD.

It will be like a Cyna without falloff bonus....and you guys are complaining??

Oh....you can also fit it as a missile ship if you want it that way too!!!

Stuff

I guess it's okay to completely disregard the Zealot has more fitting along with an extra turret and other bonuses. What's wrong if it's somewhat similar? It's going be a great low barrier entry hull for people looking to try AHACs like Zealots without requiring the huge amount of ISK and skill points needed to do so.

Not every hull has to be great for solo. I love seeing some of these more suited for fleets, such as the Omen Navy. I don't agree with adding more drones to it and removing a turret, but that's not our call. I'd rather see the drones completely removed and the turret added back in.

As the changes stand now I see it becoming the choice for people with links and implants for solo. A fast cruiser with two flights of drones. These things will have ECM drones out the ass if you see them in solo/small gang. They'll just jam and kite you all day. More of that is not helping solo/small gang stuff.

The trend is to give every single ship something different w.r.t bonus and performance. No ship is simply a better version of another ship anymore. So, these bonuses make perfect sense.

Anyways Fozzie, it sounds like you guys are going to be doing some serious changes to the game Meta and I hope you guys go through with some of the more drastic changes despite player protests.

Well said, X Gal.

An optimal range bonus for the Nomen adds much needed change to the Meta for solo, small gang, and larger fleet doctrines, since right now its just a more expensive, slightly better Maller. The loss in DPS makes sense in the context of "Currently ships with good range do too much dmg" changes ie: the Drake. Though, it still feels odd that the raw gun DPS is the least out of all T1 Amarr cruisers now. Maybe more drone bandwidth? *Shrugs*

Having less armour than the SFI is a bit silly as well.

Anyways Fozzie, it sounds like you guys are going to be doing some serious changes to the game Meta and I hope you guys go through with some of the more drastic changes despite player protests. Mixing up the game meta is great because of the explosion of PVP that happens as groups test whats good and develop counters of their own.

5% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile explosion radius

FIRST.

They aren't extremely similar.

-Liang

When they went and made T1 logistics, they should have committed to making Faction Logistics as well, or they should change the hulls in my opinion.

You're right, one of them does nearly 40% more damage with guns and has EHP, and the other one goes kind of fast and has a flight of drones that are pretty useless for an optimal bonused ship.

I didn't think anyone would seriously be concerned that the Zealot would be obsoleted by the changes to the Nomen. Quite the opposite, I think the Nomen is very nearly useless on release because the Zealot already exists.

Totally don't agree with either of you. The Navy faction ships are not supposed to be some unique line of ships. They are supposed to represent a counter to Capsuleers ships by adding improvements that the Navy's have added, essentially making them slightly better versions of their T1 counterparts.

Scythe Fleet Issue: This is my attempt to redeem the Minmatar split weapons tradition. Instead of forcing both weapon systems it gives both as viable choices.

This worked so well for the Naga...

R.I.P. Torp Naga the best ship that never was.

Also the sensor strength creep is too much 21 is better than a drake........

exqueror navy issue is lacking a lot of armour here its not able to structure tank quite like an frigate can like the enyo

Echoing the 'I thought the faction was just supposed to be a slightly fancier version of the T1?' confusion.

I love you.

So 2 navy caldari bots both for missiles... Will we ever see a blaster navy cruiser? Caldari uses 2 missile systems.. if you going to fix things.. take that into account... eg navy cruisers and T3 BC's

You mean railguns right.

Exequror Navy Issue:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret rate of fire
Slot layout: 4 H, 5 M(+2), 6 L(+1), 5(+1) turrets
Fittings: 830(+70) PWG, 350(+70) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1800(+428) / 1950(+474) / 2550(+863)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-200)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1500(+125) / 490s(-1.25) / 3(+0.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 255(+7) / 0.4 (-0.037) / 11280000(-260,000) / 6.25s(-0.74)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(+5) / 50(+30)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47.5km / 325(+3) / 7(+1)
Sensor strength: 18(+3) Magnetometric
Signature radius: 110(+2)
Cargo capacity: 465 (+200)

So 5 heavy drones on the Vexor Navy Issue? And those Garde IIs get a 25% tracking bonus from the hull?

I am now very interested in seeing what you do to the Worm, Gila and Rattlesnake (noting of course that Guristas don't have a destroyer or battlecruiser yet).

One more thread today before I start the Easter vacation (Iceland is awesome).


Augoror Navy Issue:
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 215(+51) / 0.48(-11) / 10650000 / 7.09s(-1.62s)

I'll take two missile boats over a dedicated rail boat any day, forever.

At least until they make medium railguns not the worst turret set in the game. Regardless. I eagerly await to liberate my odd looking navy osprey from wherever I put it forever ago and slam on actual weapons, and then fly it like the giant hookbill it will be. Should be fun.

Each race has their various flavors integrated into the Navy lineups in some fashion (even Amarr with one ship a +tank brick and the other an +optimal laser monster), so it'd make more sense for Caldari to represent hybrids into their Navy lineup and rework the other ship to make HMLs more viable as a range option (with HAM being equally viable for brawling). This'd also add a shield hybrid option into the Navy lineup that is sorely missing in the current iteration.

- Navy Scythe with insane damage, whatever the weapon it choose, and frigate speed and agility.

...- Navy Omen with destroyer speed and optimale bonused lasers...

+1 turret, +1 med, +1 low and +70 PG and +60 CPU? Seriously? At the moment you only can fit Ions if you're going to armour tank (or neutrons, if you're going shield tank it) and you do not have any free resources left at all, and you're adding ONE MORE turret and med slot with only 70 PG and 60 CPU??? Again, seriously? Are we supposed to fit electron blasters on it?

In light of the earlier proposed TE changes, please provide the Stabber Fleet Issue with a bonus to falloff.

Thanks!

1. Why in gods name are you doing a split weapon system on the Scythe, when you said "we want to get rid of the split weapon bonuses" Are you senile?

.

Why in the world was the drone bay stripped off the Caracal Navy Issue?

Why would I fly an Osprey over a missile Scythe. The Scythe gets:

The same number of launchers.
10% damage bonus on any damage type, not just kinetic.
Significantly more PG.
Bigger Drone bay.
Is faster.
Has a smaller sig radius.

You nee to rethink the Scythe. Shield boost and 5% damage per level would be my vote.

The Myrm needs heavy/sentry 5 drones now, no reason it shouldn't. Now there are 2 cruisers with the ability to use 5 sentry/heavy drones.

No, it'd compete far too much with upcoming Eos if it did, and the damage would be out of balance with its five turrets and large tank. In fact, the Myrm's tank is the advantage over the Navy Vexor. The Navy Vexor, while being a dps powerhouse, and probably a little more survivable due to the ability to dps from range with the drones, it's still going to be a glass cannon, and all that dps means nothing when the ship is dead.

Now, of course we can debate whether the Gallente active tanking role was really needed on both rebalanced BCs, since the Myrm or Brutix should have received something that makes it more fleet-friendly. But as it stands now, the Myrm is going to have the tank/soloing advantage over the Navy Vexor easily.

Besides, not all ships need to have the same in order to be competitive. You gotta realize that CCP doesn't make "one sausage" in different lengths. Each ship represents a different flavor of sausage altogether, and that gives choices, and choices for games are what make the game interesting, fun and unique.

Wat. Its got 6 launchers or 6 guns. Max of 6+1.5 or 1.5+6. Thats not insane damage at all. Its the same dps as the current stabber. Less actually

I don't understand why the navy version of the support cruisers are not support cruisers them self... Can anybody explain it to me?

And now the poor SFI. Seriously there was nothing wrong with it, so why mess with agility/mass. It just doesn't compute that the agility is brought on par with other races and the increase in signature radius make the signature tanking impossible. (The one thing I really liked with some more creative fits are the AB sig tanked ones which increasingly are more and more difficult due to tendency to make everything not ballanced, but simply uniform.

The attempt with split weapons on Scythe is pretty shite IMHO, as it tries to be too many things at one and as a result there are better alternatives. Please make it a focused ship, missiles or guns, and can the idea of diversity through split systems.

I am just said that the trend is to crate much of a muchness, and as a result Minmatar are constantly the ones getting the short end of the stick. Probably this post will also be ignored, but at least I tried. :)

Vexor Navy Issue: 5 heavy drones make this a very exciting ship, at the expense of almost all the gun damage. Flies like a modified Ishtar or Gila, sacrificing resists and dronebay for easier damage application.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to drone velocity and tracking
10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield
Slot layout: 4 H(-1), 4 M(+1), 6 L, 2(-3) turrets
Fittings: 800 PWG(+100), 310(+10) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1650(-635) / 3000(+539) / 3000(+187)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-550)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1500(+125) / 490s(-1.25) / 3
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 220(+40) / 0.44(-0.106) / 11310000(+400,000) / 6.9s(-1.36)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 200(+100)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km / 285(+9) / 7(+1)
Sensor strength: 20(+3) Magnetometric
Signature radius: 135
Cargo capacity: 460(+195)


Let us know what you think!

Seriously. Don't get why people are losing it over the StabberFI changes, and the ScytheFI is probably going to be great.

StabberFI:
People complaining about the armour value nerf completely boggle my mind. It's 61 armour. That's almost nothing. Really. It doesn't even total over 80 with all skills applied. That much armour is nothing. The sig radius changes are almost negligible. It's a smaller difference than the sizes between frigates. It's still one of the smaller cruisers, and it gets to sport a pretty solid tank, and move decently quick to boot.
And as for the mass increase, if you're armour tanking your SFI then there's almost no change from before the Armour Honeycombing skill was introduced. And it was fine before that skill, so I don't see where the big deal is.
The only thing I see being a *real* nerf is the 2 CPU due to how tight some of the fits I have seen can be, and that's easily compensated by going to meta.

ScytheFI:
Looks like it's going to be fine to me. The only difficulty will be damage application at range without a falloff bonus, but it gets an effective 8 guns and goes really ******* fast. It'll be great for kiting. And as for the missile variant, it'll also be really ******* fast, and will do equal damage in all types to a Navy Osprey shooting Kinetic. The only thing the Osprey has on the ScytheFI is missile velocity (so range) and one mid (tank, if you're actually getting close enough to be shot...) They both might have a decent role, but I think the ScytheFI will pull it off better, personally. I think the ScytheFI will be just fine, all said and done.

Crikey, the Navy ships are going to be a bit good aren't they?

I have been playing EVE for six months. When I started out I chose Minmatar because I heard they were a bit fragile but fast.

I bitterly regret that decision, as Minmatar ships have continued to receive one nerf after another. I realised the writing was on the wall a few days ago, and am now training Caldari/Missiles, then Amarr/Lasers, but I am very very pissed that I now basically have to start all over again.

I wouldn't mind so much if the really shite Minmatar ships got buffed, but that didn't happen.

My SFI won't be replaced when it eventually gets killed.

Yay, let's buff the shield HP and reduce the armour HP on a ship which is getting a mass increase. Way to make a nice versatile ship into a crap brawler AND crap at kiting. Makes perfect sense.

I doubt Fozzie has flown those ships in any really tight combat situation so I bet you'll see even more odd ideas from him... Not that I don't appreciate his work. But sometimes it's become obvious he doesn't understand all the game's aspects equally good.

Seriously. Don't get why people are losing it over the StabberFI changes, and the ScytheFI is probably going to be great.

StabberFI:
People complaining about the armour value nerf completely boggle my mind. It's 61 armour. That's almost nothing. Really. It doesn't even total over 80 with all skills applied. That much armour is nothing. The sig radius changes are almost negligible. It's a smaller difference than the sizes between frigates. It's still one of the smaller cruisers, and it gets to sport a pretty solid tank, and move decently quick to boot.
And as for the mass increase, if you're armour tanking your SFI then there's almost no change from before the Armour Honeycombing skill was introduced. And it was fine before that skill, so I don't see where the big deal is.
The only thing I see being a *real* nerf is the 2 CPU due to how tight some of the fits I have seen can be, and that's easily compensated by going to meta.

ScytheFI:
Looks like it's going to be fine to me. The only difficulty will be damage application at range without a falloff bonus, but it gets an effective 8 guns and goes really ******* fast. It'll be great for kiting. And as for the missile variant, it'll also be really ******* fast, and will do equal damage in all types to a Navy Osprey shooting Kinetic. The only thing the Osprey has on the ScytheFI is missile velocity (so range) and one mid (tank, if you're actually getting close enough to be shot...) They both might have a decent role, but I think the ScytheFI will pull it off better, personally. I think the ScytheFI will be just fine, all said and done.

Man, I don't wanna be rude...

+1 to the navy omen changes, except for the hp, considering the sfi has more armour without the penaly to shield amount that the omen has. Surely it would be better with the ammar ship having more armour and less shield than its minmatar counterpart, not less of both.

E: also have to agree with all the fleet stabber is fine as it is posts considering it will suffer from the TE nerf.

SFI nothing has changed. Still fantastic

Stabber Fleet Issue: Role stays the same, as this ship works very well.

You have no right to even make that statement since you are basing your assessment on a fit/style that on paper (ie. before TE's were broken) was niche at best. Four mids and Six lows .. wonder which rack it was intended to use for tank, you should try it, probably even godlier now that plates have lost a heap of mass .. deadly as hell thanks to being able to completely ignore relative speeds due to its mad tracking and having that infinitely important fourth mid.

And that is how one is rude .. politely.

Nomen is going to be a perfect ship, if it was Minmatar. High mobility and low damage .. makes perfect sense that the SFI is made into a Amarr dogma hull that is a better brawler (why/how the decision to make that odd switch came about ...)

To get a better idea of where you're coming from: specifically, what role do you see it filling at the moment? (others 1, 2, 3 seem to think tackler / bumper / anti-frigate support vessel... does this reflect your own view?). With all these other navy ships becoming nearly as fast or faster, roles 1 and 2 can potentially be filled by other ships. That leaves anti-frigte support. And with the tracking enhancer nerf coming, applied dps to frigate sized targets will not be as easy to keep at high speeds. Requiring either, A.) not using the stabber's full speed (in which case, why have it?), or B.) consuming a mid with a tracking computer. Either way, if you expect this ship to continue to fulfill its role as it has in the past, something needs to change: probably the tracking bonus.

Nomen is going to be a perfect ship, if it was Minmatar. High mobility and low damage .. makes perfect sense that the SFI is made into a Amarr dogma hull that is a better brawler (why/how the decision to make that odd switch came about ...)

Caracal Navy Issue: Finds a niche as the heavier version of the Caracal, more suited to brawling than kiting.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus Rapid Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire
5% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile explosion radius
Slot layout: 6 H, 5 M, 4 L, 0(-2) turrets, 6 launchers
Fittings: 715 PWG(+35), 465(+50) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3000(+187) / 1950 / 2250(-35)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s (-600)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+75) / 482.5s(8.75) / 3(+0.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+46) / 0.51(+0.09) / 9600000 / 6.79s(+1.2)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0(-15) / 0(-15)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 57.5km / 270(+28) / 7
Sensor strength: 21(+3) Gravimetric
Signature radius: 125(-5)
Cargo capacity: 450(+200)

Let us know what you think!

...Suggestion: Change the bonus to 10% damage and then 5% range/5% tracking per level. Its damage is also pretty poor, but its ok for its bonuses I think. -1 low, +1 mid. This opens up a TON of fitting options (dual prop with cap booster, full tackle with cap booster, dual web, lse w web, etc) and differentiates it from the zealot...

Somewhat amazed. Nice ships more or less now.

StabFI getting double nerfed - TEs and mass - its now a fairly sad panda (or I am)

SycFi gets a single bonus - all others double bonus (can we have stats on the use of these - I have never seen one in combat)

Given the impact of TE changes coming along at the same time as these, its getting a bit 'anti-matar'. Not that I mind the TE changes much, but the game of Kiting is dying. One wonders why Matar are getting generally ground down - while others boosted. Did a dev decide that the 'get in, do some damage - get out' philosophy (kiting by any other name) shouldn't exist?

---

I always wonder why I see such sexy ewar bonuses on other races ships, but never get web bonuses on Matari boats (leaving out the loki/recons). I know webs are powerful, but the SycFi might get something with a small range or strength web hit as its second bonus - or, given its nice missile option - a painter bonus? Just please dont mistake its either/or for an 'and'. One bonus at a time only.

Its a double bonus in the same way the caracal getting a bonus to kinetic and every other damage type is a quad bonus.

Thats not what it says, where the hell do you get this. 50% from... 5x 10%? Thats still doesnt equate to 8 turrets at skill lvl 0 You are bad at math and common sense.

In reality after the currents changes you will see minmatar ship gradually disappear from lowsec. Yes the. SFI does well atm, it used to great, after T1 buff it changed to just well, as it can compete with the popular T1 cruisers where as the regular stabber can't compete, so that made it the cruiser to fly for any minmatar. Now it becomes less agile and has an increased sig, taking away the thing that allowed it to compete versus better armor tanking T1 cruisers, that compared to he weird shield addition and its already poor dps this cruiser will become the new rifter, aka near useless and good at nothing. The scythe willl be like cynabal, except where a cynabal kites this thing will need to brawl to do any dps, which it cant. So it will just die like any cynabal that gets caught.

Basically after this rebalance any minmatar pilot in lowsec will be forced to reskill to another race since no viable competitive cruiser will remain. I don't smind rebalancing but geez think about what ships are to be used for.

Thats not what it says, where the hell do you get this. 50% from... 5x 10%? Thats still doesnt equate to 8 turrets at skill lvl 0 You are bad at math and common sense.

In reality after the currents changes you will see minmatar ship gradually disappear from lowsec. Yes the. SFI does well atm, it used to great, after T1 buff it changed to just well, as it can compete with the popular T1 cruisers where as the regular stabber can't compete, so that made it the cruiser to fly for any minmatar. Now it becomes less agile and has an increased sig, taking away the thing that allowed it to compete versus better armor tanking T1 cruisers, that compared to he weird shield addition and its already poor dps this cruiser will become the new rifter, aka near useless and good at nothing. The scythe willl be like cynabal, except where a cynabal kites this thing will need to brawl to do any dps, which it cant. So it will just die like any cynabal that gets caught.

Basically after this rebalance any minmatar pilot in lowsec will be forced to reskill to another race since no viable competitive cruiser will remain. I don't smind rebalancing but geez think about what ships are to be used for.

It's always funny to see whenever any ship balance changes come out all the people that post with the "sky is falling" mentality. "Nobody is gonna fly X ship (unless you keep it in its current OP state)."

I'm not calling you out specifically; you are in a long line of posters who claim that their FOTM ship is gonna dry up, ironically, by allowing the other ships to gain parity with the "current" OP leader. The real issue is that these posters want to keep their superiority advantage, but that's not a particularly realistic expectation, so they turn to scary language and fear mongering. Everyone claimed HML nerf would make the Drake extinct or that nobody was going to even undock in a Cane without its two utility high slots. But guess what: people still fly these and others post-rebalancing.

Life will go on. Pilots will still find each other. Ships will still explode. This isn't their first rodeo, nor will it be their last.

Osprey Navy Issue: This one flies much like a Caracal with even better speed and agility, and has the most mids of any offensive-minded cruiser, giving options for tank or utility. The comparison with the Hookbill is intentional.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Kinetic missile damage, 5% to Explosive, Thermal and EM missile damage
10% bonus to Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Velocity
Slot layout: 5(+1) H, 6(+1) M, 4(+1) L, 2 turrets, 4 launchers
Fittings: 630(+90) PWG, 450(+85) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2550(+1143) / 1800(+850) / 2100(+903)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(+100)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+388) / 482.5s(+101.25) / 3(+0.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 260(+35) / 0.385 / 11780000(+1,000,000) / 6.29s(+0.54)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10 / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km(+7.5) / 310(-1) / 8(+2)
Sensor strength: 19(+3) Gravimetric
Signature radius: 115(+3)
Cargo capacity: 460(-25)

Edit goldsaver where do you find this 50%rate of fire also 4+ 50% (which is 2) would be 6, not 8. While other ships have 10% and 10% something else.

Scythe Fleet Issue: This is my attempt to redeem the Minmatar split weapons tradition. Instead of forcing both weapon systems it gives both as viable choices.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
10% bonus to Missile damage
Slot layout: 5(-1) H, 5(+1) M, 5(+2) L, 4(+1) Turrets, 4(+1) Launchers
Fittings: 745 PWG, 400(+125) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2400(+1000) / 1950(+910) / 1950(+730)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-100)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1275(+213) / 425s(+43.75) / 3(+0.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 280(+10) / 0.44 / 10910000 / 6.65s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km(+12.5) / 345 / 7
Sensor strength: 16(+3) Ladar
Signature radius: 90
Cargo capacity: 440

wtf nomen?!

while I appreciate the optimal bonus and more stable cap, how n the hell is it supposed to stand up to a vexor or god forbid an sfi?!

Its an oversized slicer now, that will be tackled in an instant and popped a second after that..

/facepalm


And do we as amarr really need YET ANOTHER scorch platform? How about giving it a 20% per level tracking bonus to beams instead. That way there would be at least one ship that would ever want to fit beams over scorch for a change.

Aah i get it thanks. Guess that makes it more viable than I thought, so I guess the idea it to make a gank and run like hell ship. I can support that.

Damage bonuses multiply hardpoints by (1+dmg_bonus). Rate of fire bonuses divide by (1-dmg_bonus).

-Liang

Yes, we do. This is a very needed role that is currently completely unfilled in the game.

-Liang

wtf nomen?!

while I appreciate the optimal bonus and more stable cap, how n the hell is it supposed to stand up to a vexor or god forbid an sfi?!

Its an oversized slicer now, that will be tackled in an instant and popped a second after that..

/facepalm


And do we as amarr really need YET ANOTHER scorch platform? How about giving it a 20% per level tracking bonus to beams instead. That way there would be at least one ship that would ever want to fit beams over scorch for a change.

To all of those that complain about the Scy NI it seems to me that its going to be a pretty awesome ship to fly in fleets, and viable in solo roams.

Pros

-Fast - 280 m/s that's only 8m/s slower then the stabber at cruiser 5 with much better dps or projection

-Versatile - You can run this as a fast kiting shield ship or an uber armor utility ship (uber on the utility not the armor), a heavier fast tackle or anywhere in-between. Also both weapon systems and bonus allow for damage type flexibility.

-Surprise - People will be so baffled that your actually flying a navy scythe they will either confuse you with a regular scythe and primary you or dismiss you as flying a useless ship.

Cons

-Not as cool looking as the SFI

-Fittings could be tight depending on how its setup the CPU and PG might need a look at

-People will be angry at you for not repping them

My 2 Cents