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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
34
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:13:00 -
[391] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:gascanu wrote:Vladimir Norkoff wrote:gascanu wrote:this is the first tool in a long time CCP give to small/medium alliances in npc 0.0 or low sec that will help them fight the large coalitions, and put a better defence of "their space"; .... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively. That being said, these siphons will far less effective than the panic-stricken Goons would like to make them out to be. you faill to understand that atm the "small groups" have around 0(ZERO) R64 moons; given that, can you tell me how the "large groups" can use this tool to grief them? We can double all the T2 ship prices.
you can do that right now; |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:13:00 -
[392] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:I do not think I am understanding this correctly.
I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away?
Starbase weapons are a relic from the old days of EVE, when Dreadnoughts had 80k EHP and Tech 2 ships were flown by a small elite number of pilots.
They've never been reviewed since, so here are some interesting facts:
- The targeting delay on POS weapons allows anything battleship-sized (or smaller) time to land on grid, drop an item, and align out again before being targeted. Smaller guns may get off a volley, but they do about less DPS than a modern frigate so who cares. Webs and points cannot lock in time.
- With the warp speed changes in Rubicon, it will be possible for cruiser-sized ships and below to align out from a POS, warp to a gate and jump out of system before a starbase disruption battery could have time to lock them. Yep, the scan res is so bad on these things you can literally leave system before they lock you.
- Without using (very rare) faction weapons, a purely combat fit starbase will do less than 10,000dps, slightly above a single Dreadnought. This fit is exclusive to Amarr and Minmatar towers, as POS hybrid and missile weapons do less than half this damage.
In order to do this much damage, all the modules need to be operated in advance by several people in place ahead of time and focusing on a single target. They will then sit there and wait 30-40secs for the guns to lock, while hoping the target doesn't just warp out.
gascanu wrote:
you faill to understand that atm the "small groups" have around 0(ZERO) R64 moons; given that, can you tell me how the "large groups" can use this tool to grief them?
Because there are plenty of small groups who simply buy those r64's in Jita and react them into more advanced materials required for T2.
Dropping a mining tower on an r64 moon doesn't automatically spit out T2 ships you know. There are several steps in the process and this new feature happily disrupts the most basic levels, affecting everyone up the chain.
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Uppsy Daisy
Perkone Caldari State
548
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:14:00 -
[393] - Quote
Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop.
The siphons do not destroy minerals.
They are freely lootable.
Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
72
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:16:00 -
[394] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop. The siphons do not destroy minerals. They are freely lootable. Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first.
Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Jones Bones
Broski North Black Legion.
128
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:16:00 -
[395] - Quote
Drone Assist and now Siphons.
Why so serious Goonies? You used to be such fun loving bees. Now you're the guy in the suit and tie who drinks dark coffee every morning and complains about "kids these days". So sad |
Gossamer DT
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
103
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:17:00 -
[396] - Quote
This is great, I now have a peace time hobby for my tengu/crane/widow crew.
Lets see crane cargo 9,405.9 so fits about 470 siphons, no limit to the number I can drop on a tower, have a list of moons check, this is going to be epic!!! I figure 50 per tower (just to be safe, want to make sure they last a while), and that gives me 20 spares to pop back and replace for the aggressive locals.
I love you CCP best Idea ever! who is your main, and what does he do? |
Uppsy Daisy
Perkone Caldari State
549
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:17:00 -
[397] - Quote
Querns wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop. The siphons do not destroy minerals. They are freely lootable. Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first. Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal
Yes! Shame on me. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5292
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:17:00 -
[398] - Quote
I mean I think I've made my point: we're arguing with people who don't have the faintest grasp of any of the underlying systems like dr "less moongoo harvested means prices drop" economics, so I'm going to repeat myself once and then stop responding to people who can barely manage to string together two sentences, most of which is misspelled.
The system itself could be neat when siphon costs aren't a rounding error, but the system is poorly balanced as it is because there's no cost to losing a siphon. In addition, being able to chain two siphons to nuke the entire output is not well balanced and that should be looked at. Lastly, alchemy being immune throws things off. Presumably this is because it produces one unit an hour. That should be changed to producing 200 units an hour, and requiring 200 to refine. They can even be .005m3 so that nothing changes size-wise.
Those three things should be looked at and corrected before (not after) they are introduced. Especially the cost, as you say you'll fix it later if it's unbalanced - but you won't, because you won't want to run the risk of people speculatively hording beforehand. |
Gossamer DT
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
103
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:18:00 -
[399] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop. The siphons do not destroy minerals. They are freely lootable. Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first.
reading is hard they say
Siphon units also have a waste factor (assumed to be lost in transit). This wastes (destroys) a portion of what is stolen. The waste factor for the Small Mobile Siphon Unit is 20%. who is your main, and what does he do? |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
933
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:18:00 -
[400] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Vladimir Norkoff wrote:.... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively.
Only if you're working under the dubious assumption that a small group is like a large group, but smaller.
The smallest group with any amount of relevance is probably RnK, and even then they mostly run gimmick ops.
Smaller groups will go bankrupt from losing haulers and equipment trying to siphon some materials from us. We're going to heavily subsidize screwing with enemy R64s thanks to our other sources of income and market manipulation. You're all going to have to learn to cope.
As people have mentioned in this very thread, we can in fact field entire fleets of 100m isk suicide battlecruisers. We could get 2500 siphons for the price of one Tornado fleet. That's more than two for each R64 moon we don't own. You're welcome.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
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Schmata Bastanold
The brothers inc Brothers Of The Dark Sun
1034
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:18:00 -
[401] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:POSes are already ''Kill yourself'' levels of logistics nightmare. To set up a POS on a moon worth anything, you need to spend much ISK and be able to field multiple fleets.
Nobody is forcing anybody to have POS unless you live in w-space.
So maybe switch to something more fun if this activity is sooooo terrible? I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
203
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:18:00 -
[402] - Quote
Why do any of you think this will hurt Goonswarm?
First off, Goonswarm easily has the leadership capability, player willingness, and financial fortitude to use this as a viable price fixing/alliance crushing tactic.
Second, as I explained early, only the most daft people would think that you're going to make tonnes of isk why you make the "evil empire pay". There is some profitability potential, but it is a LOT of work coupled with a lot of luck. Maybe the medium and larger sizes will change that, but I doubt it will without a lot of mechanics changes.
The ONLY way this could possibly hurt goonswarm while at the same time not make it be worthwhile for them to use it "en masse" would be limit one per POS. If it was limited to one, the risk/reward value of trying to massive land thousands of Siphons would be both organizationally extensive and ultimately unprofitable and fail to dent either enemy incomes or effectively manipulate moon goo dispersement.
The more I think about it, the more I think CCP didn't give the little guy an advantage, they gave the biggest guy on the block the Eve equivilent of the Death Star.
He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1299
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:20:00 -
[403] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Querns wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop. The siphons do not destroy minerals. They are freely lootable. Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first. Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal Yes! Shame on me.
Scene: There is an obelisk, it is black, you have fur. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
77
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:20:00 -
[404] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Marlona Sky wrote: Or... you could actually occupy the space you decide to deploy assets in with other players from your corp, alliance, coalition?
Well, for starters, you've thought this feature through and read how it works so poorly you were outraged at a post telling you exactly what you wanted to hear. But the point is this doesn't reward "occupying" your space. It requires manually checking your pos every few hours. If there's 20 people ratting in that system nonstop it's not actually stopping someone from siphoning.
Nothing is stopping one of those 20 people from using D-scan to see that a siphon has been dropped and then warp over and collect the goods.
Anyone can take from the siphon. So when you see them around your friendly POS warp over, collect and kill the syphon. What, is this mythical Viator gonna kill you with amazing hauler DPS? An interceptor can't collect the goods since it's cargo bay is too small.
Mostly I see AFK, large space holding but not space using Alliances (aka goonswarm) complaining that they will have to use their space to keep track of their AFK income.
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Pinky Hops
Rokh You like a Hurricane Nomads.
12
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:21:00 -
[405] - Quote
So basically here is how I interpret this whole situation:
1) Goonswarm feel rightly threatened because people will just walk into their undefended territory and **** over their POS mining operations
2) Goonswarm QQ's for 20 pages
3) Goonswarm announces that they can do more damage than can be done to them...Basically they are saying they will burn the whole world with the same tool that will burn them....
So 3) makes me laugh. Goonswarm has a lot of players, but they certainly don''t have the ISK to sustainably do what they are proposing.
Some minor scratchpaper math shows that for them to even put a minor dent, they would have to spend TRILLIONS of ISK, and then the question is:
Does the raise in profitability from their own moon goo operations offset their spending trillions of ISK on on siphons?
Unlikely -- especially considering their own operations will be far less efficient. |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
184
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:21:00 -
[406] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:Why so serious Goonies? You used to be such fun loving bees. Now you're the guy in the suit and tie who drinks dark coffee every morning and complains about "kids these days". So sad
We're more like the mischievous youth telling our parents "hey you know that box of fireworks you have there... it's probably not a good idea to let me have it" |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
34
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:23:00 -
[407] - Quote
xttz wrote:
Because there are plenty of small groups who simply buy those r64's in Jita and react them into more advanced materials required for T2.
.
are you trying to say that buying r64 in jita is more profitable for those "small groups" than mining it themself from the moons in the region they live? really?
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Uppsy Daisy
Perkone Caldari State
549
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:23:00 -
[408] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Querns wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop. The siphons do not destroy minerals. They are freely lootable. Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first. Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal Yes! Shame on me. Scene: There is an obelisk, it is black, you have fur.
Hmmmm, this bone.... it looks..... like a club!!
With this I can defeat the evil Goonz! |
Huttan Funaila
Terminal Radioactivity Spaceship Samurai
214
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:24:00 -
[409] - Quote
Berluth Luthian wrote:I don't really do moon harvesting, but is there not a way to see what gets put in your silos via the API? If so, a simple tool that is showing expected vs. actual output could be a really easy alarm system. Yes. Except it is going to lie to you: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3749179#post3749179 |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1338
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:24:00 -
[410] - Quote
gascanu wrote:are you trying to say that buying r64 in jita is more profitable for those "small groups" than mining it themself from the moons in the region they live? really?
"Small groups" don't own R64s. And even in the hypothetical unlikely scenario of a moon being siphoned 24/7, large alliances would still hold R64s - if not for the income, then to deny the income to anybody else. |
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Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
933
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:27:00 -
[411] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:
So 3) makes me laugh. Goonswarm has a lot of players, but they certainly don''t have the ISK to sustainably do what they are proposing.
Some minor scratchpaper math shows that for them to even put a minor dent, they would have to spend TRILLIONS of ISK, and then the question is:
Does the raise in profitability from their own moon goo operations offset their spending trillions of ISK on on siphons?
Unlikely -- especially considering their own operations will be far less efficient.
3) Hahahahahahahahahahaha
Your math: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Mister McDerp
University of Caille Gallente Federation
23
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:27:00 -
[412] - Quote
Which is imho the worst about all of this. Literally so badly thought out they have to make the API scew us over |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
72
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:29:00 -
[413] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Querns wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop. The siphons do not destroy minerals. They are freely lootable. Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first. Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal Yes! Shame on me. Scene: There is an obelisk, it is black, you have fur.
Am I supposed to be holding a bone This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
184
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:30:00 -
[414] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote: So 3) makes me laugh. Goonswarm has a lot of players, but they certainly don''t have the ISK to sustainably do what they are proposing.
These things are so cheap I have enough personal ISK to run around and drop 5 siphons on every single r64 in the game. And I'm not even rich.
What do you think our small group of guys who suicide billions of isk a day ganking hi-sec freighters will do with this feature? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
72
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:30:00 -
[415] - Quote
I guess it's technically cartilage This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
271
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:31:00 -
[416] - Quote
gascanu wrote:you faill to understand that atm the "small groups" have around 0(ZERO) R64 moons; given that, can you tell me how the "large groups" can use this tool to grief them? Well let's just pretend that these siphons will actually be cost-effective and useful. Assuming that, your little crap alliance goes and drops some on a big alliance's valuable moons - and they have ALOT of moons. The impact is a small percentage of their moon income, while they can turn around and drop siphons on your relatively miniscule amount of crap moons taking ALL your moon income. And they actually have the manpower to keep the siphons maintained. So yeah, big alliances would be more effective with mythical awesome siphons.
Fortunately the siphons will not be awesome. They are overpriced for their function and the amount of effort involved - a siphon essentially does nothing if the POS owner just unloads his moongoo from the siphon. And the only way you can prevent that is to constantly watch the siphon. Which is far too much effort for the amount of return. |
Pinky Hops
Rokh You like a Hurricane Nomads.
12
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:33:00 -
[417] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:
So 3) makes me laugh. Goonswarm has a lot of players, but they certainly don''t have the ISK to sustainably do what they are proposing.
Some minor scratchpaper math shows that for them to even put a minor dent, they would have to spend TRILLIONS of ISK, and then the question is:
Does the raise in profitability from their own moon goo operations offset their spending trillions of ISK on on siphons?
Unlikely -- especially considering their own operations will be far less efficient.
3) Hahahahahahahahahahaha Your math: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
start filling it in
1) how many do you need to plant to just negatively affect a single tiny region, let alone a meaningful amount of total area
2) how often will they be discovered/eliminated
3) how much ISK per day does it cost to maintain a sustained large attack
keep going, and yes, the numbers add up hilariously fast. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1381
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:33:00 -
[418] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:MeBiatch wrote:this is what i can gather goons will do...
they have a huge stock pile of moon mins
they know that even if the collect 0 of the mins there is going to be an automatic 20% loss just off the bat.
so that means they are going to try and reduce the moon mins by 20% which means that demand will go up and they have the supply...
so that is the only way i can see goons making loads of isk from this Thanks for restating everything Aryth and Mynnna are already telling everyone. If we mercilessly siphon every R64 moon in the universe that isn't ours, and we lose some R64s to enemy siphon, all while toying with the R64 markets since months ago, there's no way we aren't making trillions and annihilating affordable T2 prices.
well if they get rid of the 20% loss then that would put a dent into your nefarious plans.
moreover alchamy poses will increase invalue because you cant shyper them...
i plan on getting stupid rich with you guys... cheers! There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
933
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:33:00 -
[419] - Quote
There are maybe a few hundred R64 moons we don't own.
Let's say there a a thousand of them.
That's still only 20 bil to put two siphons on each. I could bankroll that and I'm basically a newbie. Jewbal-level 1%ers can buy enough siphons to do this hundreds of times. So can our socialist alliance.
This is chump change. It costs even less if we aim at only one type of moon mineral at once.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
34
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:33:00 -
[420] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:gascanu wrote:are you trying to say that buying r64 in jita is more profitable for those "small groups" than mining it themself from the moons in the region they live? really?
"Small groups" don't own R64s. And even in the hypothetical unlikely scenario of a R64 moon owned by a large alliance being siphoned 24/7, large alliances would still hold R64s - if not for the income, then to deny the income to anybody else.
umm, you contradict yourself: |
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