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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
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CCP Falcon
4207
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Good afternoon capsuleers!
CCP SoniClover is here with a new Dev Blog, to shed some light on the POS siphoning units that will be coming with EVE Online: Rubicon on November 19th.
While the statistics and numbers are subject to change pending final balancing, please take a look at his new Dev Blog to read all about the moneymaking opportunities that will be coming with this new feature in Rubicon.
Enjoy! CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Team -á || -á EVE Illuminati -á || -á Live Events Organizer
@CCP_Falcon -á || -á-á@EVE_LiveEvents |
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CCP Paradox
1016
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
Great! Just to let you guys know, they will be available on Singularity next week. :) Keep you eyes open over on the test server feedback forum. (should be Tuesday or Wednesday) CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4239
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment
612
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
So the owner will not get any kind of notification?
Neat. Maybe this will help roaming gang to "force" people to undock?
Could you do something similar with the pirate array thingy? German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
Sugar Kyle
Calamitous-Intent
274
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
So with stacking you can steal an entire POS's moon goo supply with enough siphons out there?
Nice. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |
Graygor
1kB Realty 1kB Galactic
71989
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Looking good CCP! "I think you should buy a new Mayan calendar. Mine has muscle cars on it." --áKenneth O'Hara
"I dont think that can happen, you can see Gray has his invuln field on in his portrait." - Commisar Kate |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1282
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Why has alchemy been exempted when you could have solved this by changing the units of output for alchemy? The biggest market for using these is going to be lowsec reaction chains which have huge usage of alchemy. Was it simply because someone could not figure out how to change 1 to 200? Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Rain6638
Team Evil
981
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 15:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
like sucking on a hose in a gas tank [ 2013.06.21 09:52:05 ] (notify) For initiating combat your security status has been adjusted by -0.1337 yo dawg, we heard you liek industrials, so we put an industrial in yo industrial so you can loss while u loss |
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
199
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cool, glad for the update. Got a few questions:
1. D-Scan/Probing - I assume they will be visible on D-scan, but can they be probed down? Personally, I think it would be a bit too easy if they were probeable.
2. How many siphon units can be placed on each individual POS? One, or can there be multiple siphons per POS?
3. Is there plans to expand the Siphon's capabilities to include other industrial aspects? He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
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CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
384
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Why has alchemy been exempted when you could have solved this by changing the units of output for alchemy? The biggest market for using these is going to be lowsec reaction chains which have huge usage of alchemy. Was it simply because someone could not figure out how to change 1 to 200?
No, the version that is coming out in Rubicon is intended to be a very basic version. Thus, we didn't want it to have too wide application. We'll probably add a couple of new versions in the point release, one of which *could* go for alchemy. |
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CCP Tuxford
C C P C C P Alliance
567
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?
Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates |
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1282
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Aryth wrote:Why has alchemy been exempted when you could have solved this by changing the units of output for alchemy? The biggest market for using these is going to be lowsec reaction chains which have huge usage of alchemy. Was it simply because someone could not figure out how to change 1 to 200? No, the version that is coming out in Rubicon is intended to be a very basic version. Thus, we didn't want it to have too wide application. We'll probably add a couple of new versions in the point release, one of which *could* go for alchemy.
Alrighty. It would be nice if an entire segment of the POS industry is not immune to siphons. This has an interesting market dynamic coming if everyone is impacted. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
443
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Looking good, but CCP pls; - Give us the more complex one as soon as possible. One for alchemy and one to steal resources of our choosing. - Will it send notifications to the POS owners?
BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
628
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Rubicon is truly adopting the Roman approach: burnt farms and salted fields. @pmchem on twitter || GARPA || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Phey Onat
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
17
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
So, if a tower is just pulling raw minerals off an R64, it gets 100/hour. The siphon takes 60/hour and losses 20% of that so you get 48/hour.
Does that mean that 2 siphons shuts down a simple moon harvestor extractor -> silo setup? Wherein the first siphon gets 48/hour and the second gets 32/hour? |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2087
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 15:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
will it appear on dscan? The value of those things would be much higher if it wouldn't. Same for the depot (however it should be possible to probe it down of course). eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
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CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
384
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:Cool, glad for the update. Got a few questions:
1. D-Scan/Probing - I assume they will be visible on D-scan, but can they be probed down? Personally, I think it would be a bit too easy if they were probeable.
2. How many siphon units can be placed on each individual POS? One, or can there be multiple siphons per POS?
3. Is there plans to expand the Siphon's capabilities to include other industrial aspects?
1. Mobile structures, including the siphon unit, can be probed down (and d-scanned).
2. No limit.
3. Yes, we hope to add a couple of more variations in the point release at least. |
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FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance
176
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Make it so you can offline and make it cloak please. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5240
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
I'm concerned about the balance here, specifically the interaction of multiple siphons, them costing nothing, and them being 20m3. Given their cost is a rounding error and even a covops can hold 6 or so, every time you siphon a tower there's going to be two siphons.
There's also no actual cost to doing this. You lose nothing if your siphon is noticed and blown up instantly. They pay for themselves incredibly quickly and even just the waste 'pays' for itself overnight.
I think the cost should be bumped up some so that a successful siphoning is profitable, but unsuccessful siphoning has at least a moderate downside. Chaining siphons also seems unbalanced. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4239
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Posted - 2013.10.17 15:58:00 -
[20] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.
I was talking about that you don't make it send notifications, but any large corp can have enough assets API keys to be able to detect siphoning within an hour.
Does the siphon show up in the lauching pilot's API as well? CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
170
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Cool cool.
Now we're getting more targets to shoot, can we get starbase guns reviewed please?
xttz wrote:I know it's too late for this release, but I'm gonna try and sneak in some ideas for a later Odyssey patch...
Can we get a review of Starbase weapons please? Specifically:
a) Starbase Defense Management is very much a relic of 2007. The UI forces you to control/drop one module at a time (which often takes longer than the enemy needs to run away), and there's no grouping of similar modules. Plus you need at least 15 modules to be effective in a fight which means 3-4 characters with the right roles + skills in the right place at the right time. Being able to group up weapons then control 1 group per level of the skill would be a step in the right direction.
b) Starbase weapons have never been reviewed in line with ship balancing changes. Most still do levels of damage on par with ship hitpoints in 2005. Ewar mods take the best part of a minute to lock many subcaps, during which time the target has easily moved out of range or off-grid. And the less said about Hybrid or Missile weapons the better...
c) We could really use something that acts as a threat to supercaps. Starbases used to tear up unprepared dreads and carriers, now they just get swept by fighter-bombers in under a minute. Bring back scary neuts or give us a counter to supercarrier tides.
Pretty please :)
We want our armed and operational deathstars back...
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ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
20
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
While you're adding cool stuff like this. Could you actually fix a regression (since april) finally too?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=221592 'SMAs not dropping ships, large objects no longer dropping as loot'
You may have 'lost' me many millions because of that. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4299
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. So basically the siphon is pointless. It will take all of 5 minutes for someone to make some 'alert' type program using the API that will notify players a siphon has been deployed on their POS.
Get an alert? Log in an alt already at the POS who normally would stront the tower if under attack and just man a gun to blow it up. Or just zip over in new travel fit interceptor and do it.
Do you guys ever sit back and think you have far too much free intel being given out to the players or what???
LESS AUTOMATION! MORE PLAYER INTERACTION! . |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5240
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Aryth wrote:Why has alchemy been exempted when you could have solved this by changing the units of output for alchemy? The biggest market for using these is going to be lowsec reaction chains which have huge usage of alchemy. Was it simply because someone could not figure out how to change 1 to 200? No, the version that is coming out in Rubicon is intended to be a very basic version. Thus, we didn't want it to have too wide application. We'll probably add a couple of new versions in the point release, one of which *could* go for alchemy. There's an easier fix. Make alchemy produce 200 units instead of one, and require refining in batches of 200 just like ore. |
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CCP Paradox
1017
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
Phey Onat wrote:So, if a tower is just pulling raw minerals off an R64, it gets 100/hour. The siphon takes 60/hour and losses 20% of that so the siphon gets 48/hour.
Does that mean that 2 siphons shuts down a simple moon harvestor extractor -> silo setup? Wherein the first siphon gets 48/hour and the second gets 32/hour?
Exactly. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5240
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. So basically the siphon is pointless. It will take all of 5 minutes for someone to make some 'alert' type program using the API that will notify players a siphon has been deployed on their POS. Get an alert? Log in an alt already at the POS who normally would stront the tower if under attack and just man a gun to blow it up. Or just zip over in new travel fit interceptor and do it. Do you guys ever sit back and think you have far too much free intel being given out to the players or what??? LESS AUTOMATION! MORE PLAYER INTERACTION! i suggest you do more reading and less outraged posting |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2087
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote: 1. Mobile structures, including the siphon unit, can be probed down (and d-scanned).
well thats very disappointing. Removes everything guerilla from the guerilla warfare feature if you give players 100% intel. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1285
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
Yeah, the cost isn't balanced at all. These things will pay for itself (including waste) in the time a regular tower owner sleeps. It is one thing if a tower owner can reasonably find it in the time that it might equate to a loss for the placer greater than the profit gained. It is quite another if you can just mass spray them cross entire portions of EVE and be virtually assured of payback.
The cost should not be balanced at a few hours and probably should be set at at least 12-18 hours. Is that really reasonable to require every tower owner to check their tower 3 times a day? This is exactly why skill queues were implemented and that was far less of a burden.
Balance the cost much higher. 10m that gets returned in just 2-5 hours is silly and not remotely balanced and is only going to mean mass spraying across EVE and end up as spam more than interaction.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
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CCP Paradox
1017
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote: 1. Mobile structures, including the siphon unit, can be probed down (and d-scanned).
well thats very disappointing. Removes everything guerilla from the guerilla warfare feature if you give players 100% intel.
This unit doesn't fit into the guerilla warfare part of Rubicon. That's more the mobile cynosural inhibitor deployable, and warp acceleration changes. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1932
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote: 1. Mobile structures, including the siphon unit, can be probed down (and d-scanned).
well thats very disappointing. Removes everything guerilla from the guerilla warfare feature if you give players 100% intel.
People will already have to add the tedious chore of checking pos multiple times a day to the already tedious chore of "running them in the first place" and you want it to be worse?
Whatever style of play you like, I'm going to have it nerfed, just for that. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
72
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:08:00 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.
May I have some clarification on this point? Does this mean that the AssetList call will LIE about the contents of silos to mask the presence of a siphon? This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Phey Onat
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
17
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:09:00 -
[32] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:I'm concerned about the balance here, specifically the interaction of multiple siphons, them costing nothing, and them being 20m3. Given their cost is a rounding error and even a covops can hold 6 or so, every time you siphon a tower there's going to be two siphons.
There's also no actual cost to doing this. You lose nothing if your siphon is noticed and blown up instantly. They pay for themselves incredibly quickly and even just the waste 'pays' for itself overnight.
I think the cost should be bumped up some so that a successful siphoning is profitable, but unsuccessful siphoning has at least a moderate downside. Chaining siphons also seems unbalanced.
Would like to echo some of this concern. The size of the device should be ideally small. I notice though that at 1200 m3 storage, the siphon would max out on R64 after 25 hours. The cost/benefit of the device appears fine to me on just that but chaining them, with no penalty, adds up rather quickly. |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
24
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:10:00 -
[33] - Quote
I don't quite agree with the "anyone can access" part.
It could be a corp wide access at most but if you want to access it and you aren't the owner you should at least be forced to blow it up. Then, you loot the container and you are done. Unless that it's too easy. Force people to bring their guns if they want to steal the thief. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4300
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:12:00 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Will players, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not? . |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1355
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:13:00 -
[35] - Quote
Quote:GÇóSiphon units also have a waste factor (assumed to be lost in transit). This wastes (destroys) a portion of what is stolen. The waste factor for the Small Mobile Siphon Unit is 20%.
any chance we can get a skill for siphon unit efficiancy... what it would do is reduce the waste factor by 3% per level. so that way at level V the waste would only be 5%.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Ali Aras
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
412
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. To clarify: is the assets API now going to lie and say that I have a full silo when I don't due to siphons? Or are you saying that you're tracking it but it's still going to show as less-than-full? http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4751
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:14:00 -
[37] - Quote
So basically a person deploying a Siphon unit will want to check their siphon once per day. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
649
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:14:00 -
[38] - Quote
That's definitely good stuff :) I'm just dissapointed about not having other sizes and tech 2 variants.
Also, POS guns should not be able to target it even in manual mode... If you want to remove a siphon, you have to dirty your hands yourself ! G££ <= Me |
Vatek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
82
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:14:00 -
[39] - Quote
This is a terrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1286
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:15:00 -
[40] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not?
No, it appears from his cryptically worded statement that CCP will actually be FAKING the API data to make it appear all is normal. You could read his post both ways but our consensus is he means CCP is intending to supply fake data through the API. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
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FightingMoose
Norse'Storm Battle Group
9
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:16:00 -
[41] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:I don't quite agree with the "anyone can access" part.
It could be a corp wide access at most but if you want to access it and you aren't the owner you should at least be forced to blow it up. Then, you loot the container and you are done. Unless that it's too easy. Force people to bring their guns if they want to steal the thief.
Considering how easy it is to siphon a significant amount of a moon's production, I think it's only fair that if the owner is paying attention they can get those things back. Proud owner of an Ibis. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1256
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:16:00 -
[42] - Quote
Querns wrote:May I have some clarification on this point? Does this mean that the AssetList call will LIE about the contents of silos to mask the presence of a siphon? It's called reading...
Likely they have a counter that keeps track of how much has been siphoned which is added to the number reported by the API, and this counter gets reset on either an interaction event or timer event.
I'd guess an interaction event, however it would be interesting to know what kind... Nyan |
Kazanir
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
452
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Posted - 2013.10.17 16:17:00 -
[43] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.
Having the asset API lie about the contents of silos is the wrong choice in 100% of cases. If you can't build a feature while returning accurate API data, then you need to design a better feature. I cannot believe anyone though that returning INACCURATE API DATA was ever an acceptable choice. Holy ******* ****.
Two step wrote:I was talking about that you don't make it send notifications, but any large corp can have enough assets API keys to be able to detect siphoning within an hour.
Does the siphon show up in the lauching pilot's API as well?
The assets API doesn't work this way. It has a 6-hour cache timer which is shared across all corporation keys -- you can't make multiple corporate keys and have the assets API refresh more often. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
443
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:18:00 -
[44] - Quote
Vatek wrote:Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again.
Exactly and it is perfect. Also, CCP make sure that the API doesn't tell when a siphon is sucking resources from the POS. BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1096
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:18:00 -
[45] - Quote
Wow, really great idea. When I first read this though, I was hoping that this would siphon off pos fuel or stront...that, IMO would be fantastic. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4301
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:18:00 -
[46] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not? No, it appears from his cryptically worded statement that CCP will actually be FAKING the API data to make it appear all is normal. You could read his post both ways but our consensus is he means CCP is intending to supply fake data through the API. I really would like an uncryptically worded answer for my question from CCP.
This entire feature hinges on it. . |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
633
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:18:00 -
[47] - Quote
For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. @pmchem on twitter || GARPA || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Zeimanov Kalzumaan
Haruspex Industries Wrong Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:19:00 -
[48] - Quote
It does seem a bit excessive - towers are just going to be covered in these as a troll. I like the idea you have to live in your space to actually be able to stop these resources getting siphoned away, but withthese numbers all it means is every tower is going to have ot be checked on an hourly basis. Cloaked blockade runners can afford to drop these speculatively and come back one hour later - with no real risk. If they have been blown up just drop some more and go cloak again - it is not going to create content, just be more pointless work for POS managers.
Out of interest, the dev blog seems to contradict itself:
A siphon unit can only steal from the end of a chain
vs
It will prioritize raw material over processed material if both are available
in a typical reaction chain there will often be both available, for example, Silo+Silo+reactor+*silo withthe first 2 having raw materials and the last having processed. In this instance what is stolen?
If there is a reaction and a miner to silo what would be stolen - the reaction output or the minng output or both?
Does this also mean materials from complex reactors cannot be stolen? |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:20:00 -
[49] - Quote
Vatek wrote:Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again.
Alliance - even small group of players - can actually do the same with SBUs. Size doesn't really matter as much as the time it take to all put in place, for the little benefit it will give. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
443
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:21:00 -
[50] - Quote
pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields.
Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.
BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1286
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:21:00 -
[51] - Quote
I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.
Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.
This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
633
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:21:00 -
[52] - Quote
p.s. if your reply is to just "make a fleet and camp for when the covert cloaker or interceptor deploy a siphon" I'm gonna laugh in your face @pmchem on twitter || GARPA || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Orion Moonstar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:22:00 -
[53] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:Vatek wrote:Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again. Alliance - even small group of players - can actually do the same with SBUs. Size doesn't really matter as much as the time it take to all put in place, for the little benefit it will give.
What a ridiculous comparison. SBUs don't generate income. |
|
CCP Tuxford
C C P C C P Alliance
568
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:22:00 -
[54] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not?
Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear. https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates |
|
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:22:00 -
[55] - Quote
Zeimanov Kalzumaan wrote:
in a typical reaction chain there will often be both available, for example, Silo+Silo+reactor+*silo withthe first 2 having raw materials and the last having processed. In this instance what is stolen?
If there is a reaction and a miner to silo what would be stolen - the reaction output or the minng output or both?
Does this also mean materials from complex reactors cannot be stolen?
In this case the output from the reactor is the end of the chain, the raw materials can't be stolen. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4301
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:22:00 -
[56] - Quote
pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. Or... you could actually occupy the space you decide to deploy assets in with other players from your corp, alliance, coalition? . |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
443
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:23:00 -
[57] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.
Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.
This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs.
Can't be more blue than it is now :D And probably renters won't rent moons because people like me will suck their POSs 24/7 and they wont't be able to do anything about it. Big entities will have to live in the area around POSs if they won't most of the moon goo from now on.
BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1096
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:23:00 -
[58] - Quote
pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. Good point. Afk playing is getting to be really lame. This might make it worse :( Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
570
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:23:00 -
[59] - Quote
20m3 does seem tiny compared to how big the actual unit will be when deployed... how can you make something shrink that much into a cargo-bay ... surely it should be more cargo-ship sized like 1200m3 if it is going too be able to store that much surely it should have to be that size to begin with .. especially with cov-op frigs or inties they could easily exploit these things going from POS to POS without be catch-able it seems a little unbalanced to me. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5246
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:24:00 -
[60] - Quote
What level of "monitoring your pos" are you envisioning players should need to perform? Let's assume that you check it once every eight hours (which is rather reasonable: you check it when you wake up, when you go to bed, and also once during the day).
That's already a fairly irritating level of checking your pos. That means that in those eight hours, 20% of your output will be destroyed irrevocably. And if the player is paying attention (because they can pick when they start the siphoning) they get about 80% of your pos output for eight hours, for 20m isk.
This feature is poorly thought out. It's poorly balanced. It's another one of CCP's hamfisted nerfs of 0.0 that should go hand in hand with buffs of 0.0 that are pushed off until "SOON(TM)". It doesn't reward people who use their space: it merely penalizes them a little bit less. It doesn't actually place the people siphoning at risk physically or economically: the siphons make it hilariously easy to break even.
It's a neat feature. It would work well if it was balanced properly, and if there were buffs for people who DO live in their space. But it's sort of half-assed and fits into the general CCP philosophy of "nerf 0.0 now, buff SOON(TM)" and then get distracted and naturally never get to the buff.
|
|
Razzishi
Trash Reclamation Experts
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:24:00 -
[61] - Quote
What if you have a POS in which you were harvesting (or importing) 2 raw materials, reacting them in a simple reactor, then reacting the product of that with an imported processed material in a complex reactor to form an advanced material? The dev blog doesn't say anything about this stealing advanced materials, and says that it can only steal from the end of a POS production chain. Is that setup not vulnerable to siphoning?
on preview, I note someone else asked this as well. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4842
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:24:00 -
[62] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:Aryth wrote:I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.
Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.
This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs. Can't be more blue than it is now :D And probably renters won't rent moons because people like me will suck their POSs 24/7 and they wont't be able to do anything about it. Big entities will have to live in the area around POSs if they won't most of the moon goo from now on. If they won't live around, than no moon goo :DDD Totally blue with n3 that exists to destroy us, good point there There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
ONE-MAN WOLF-PACK
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:25:00 -
[63] - Quote
I DRANK YOUR MILKSHAKE!
I DRANK IT UP! *SLUURRRP* |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
634
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:25:00 -
[64] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.
oh wait I get to laugh in your face directly, neat!
You're suggesting that the POS owner has muitiple people logged in to fleet and on-grid at POS 23 hours a day in order to defeat one individual who appears at a random time once or twice a day. So, let's say 69-character-hours per day played in order to defeat 3-character-minutes. That is surely good gameplay and sustainable! Let's also mention the fact that the attackers have d-scan and local and can check for traps before even attempting to launch the siphon! Or that if you're using a covert cloaker or Rubicon interceptor you're amazingly difficult to kill anyway unless totally incompetent, even if landing on grid with hostiles! In short you're making a terrible argument and do not know how this game plays out. @pmchem on twitter || GARPA || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:25:00 -
[65] - Quote
Orion Moonstar wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:Vatek wrote:Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again. Alliance - even small group of players - can actually do the same with SBUs. Size doesn't really matter as much as the time it take to all put in place, for the little benefit it will give. What a ridiculous comparison. SBUs don't generate income.
Syphon don't "generate" income too. |
Kazanir
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:25:00 -
[66] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not? Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear.
That's horrible game design and whoever made that decision should be ashamed of themselves. |
Vatek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
82
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:26:00 -
[67] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:Vatek wrote:Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again. Alliance - even small group of players - can actually do the same with SBUs. Size doesn't really matter as much as the time it take to all put in place, for the little benefit it will give.
SBUs cost >10 times as much, can't be crammed by the hundreds into a blockade runner and are very, very visible. |
Fix Lag
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:26:00 -
[68] - Quote
Maybe if the vast majority of nullsec space wasn't super shitty more people would be in it. |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
171
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:26:00 -
[69] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote: Or... you could actually occupy the space you decide to deploy assets in with other players from your corp, alliance, coalition?
I can't tell if you're trolling or not.
Someone who's better at math than me please work out how many individual players you need to cover a 50km sphere in space in order to prevent a cloaky ship launching a structure and getting out alive. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1934
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:26:00 -
[70] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. Or... you could actually occupy the space you decide to deploy assets in with other players from your corp, alliance, coalition?
This isn't a bad mechanic, it's just mistimed. The tools and and incentives to want to willingly live in a smaller footprint, don't exist, and so mechanics and meta dictate that to not spread as far as you are able is to allow your enemy to do it instead. But instead of fixing that, creating those tools and incentives, and then introducing them at the same time as things like this, CCP is just hauling back and aiming a big kick in the balls at anyone playing by the current rules.
Spouting off that the solution is to just do that anyway is foolish and naive. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
|
Callic Veratar
478
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:27:00 -
[71] - Quote
I find it very entertaining that players who periodically flood Jita with Tornadoes are complaining about a cheap griefing mechanic. |
Fix Lag
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:27:00 -
[72] - Quote
It's a shame siphons are an interesting idea that just got brutally murdered by their implementation. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5247
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:27:00 -
[73] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote: Or... you could actually occupy the space you decide to deploy assets in with other players from your corp, alliance, coalition?
Well, for starters, you've thought this feature through and read how it works so poorly you were outraged at a post telling you exactly what you wanted to hear.
But the point is this doesn't reward "occupying" your space. It requires manually checking your pos every few hours. If there's 20 people ratting in that system nonstop it's not actually stopping someone from siphoning. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
446
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:28:00 -
[74] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:What level of "monitoring your pos" are you envisioning players should need to perform? Let's assume that you check it once every eight hours (which is rather reasonable: you check it when you wake up, when you go to bed, and also once during the day).
That's already a fairly irritating level of checking your pos. That means that in those eight hours, 20% of your output will be destroyed irrevocably. And if the player is paying attention (because they can pick when they start the siphoning) they get about 80% of your pos output for eight hours, for 20m isk.
This feature is poorly thought out. It's poorly balanced. It's another one of CCP's hamfisted nerfs of 0.0 that should go hand in hand with buffs of 0.0 that are pushed off until "SOON(TM)". It doesn't reward people who use their space: it merely penalizes them a little bit less. It doesn't actually place the people siphoning at risk physically or economically: the siphons make it hilariously easy to break even.
It's a neat feature. It would work well if it was balanced properly, and if there were buffs for people who DO live in their space. But it's sort of half-assed and fits into the general CCP philosophy of "nerf 0.0 now, buff SOON(TM)" and then get distracted and naturally never get to the buff.
Ahm... you take for granted that the attackers play 24/7 Also CFC can field 3k players, 1 guy doesn't have to check all of them. Spread the duty. Sry, but from now on you will have to play the game to get isk. No more passive farming.
BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5247
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:28:00 -
[75] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:I find it very entertaining that players who periodically flood Jita with Tornadoes are complaining about a cheap griefing mechanic.
You make this cost as much as a tornado, problem solved. |
Fix Lag
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
567
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:28:00 -
[76] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:I find it very entertaining that players who periodically flood Jita with Tornadoes are complaining about a cheap griefing mechanic.
I don't think you understand: they're not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with them. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2088
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:28:00 -
[77] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Bienator II wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote: 1. Mobile structures, including the siphon unit, can be probed down (and d-scanned).
well thats very disappointing. Removes everything guerilla from the guerilla warfare feature if you give players 100% intel. People will already have to add the tedious chore of checking pos multiple times a day to the already tedious chore of "running them in the first place" and you want it to be worse? Whatever style of play you like, I'm going to have it nerfed, just for that.
this basically said that the same rule will apply to the depots. He wasn't only talking about siphon units. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Berluth Luthian
Meltdown.
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:29:00 -
[78] - Quote
I don't really do moon harvesting, but is there not a way to see what gets put in your silos via the API? If so, a simple tool that is showing expected vs. actual output could be a really easy alarm system. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1662
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:29:00 -
[79] - Quote
Quote:What level of "monitoring your pos" are you envisioning players should need to perform? Let's assume that you check it once every eight hours (which is rather reasonable: you check it when you wake up, when you go to bed, and also once during the day).
That's already a fairly irritating level of checking your pos. That means that in those eight hours, 20% of your output will be destroyed irrevocably. And if the player is paying attention (because they can pick when they start the siphoning) they get about 80% of your pos output for eight hours, for 20m isk.
This feature is poorly thought out. It's poorly balanced. It's another one of CCP's hamfisted nerfs of 0.0 that should go hand in hand with buffs of 0.0 that are pushed off until "SOON(TM)". It doesn't reward people who use their space: it merely penalizes them a little bit less. It doesn't actually place the people siphoning at risk physically or economically: the siphons make it hilariously easy to break even.
It's a neat feature. It would work well if it was balanced properly, and if there were buffs for people who DO live in their space. But it's sort of half-assed and fits into the general CCP philosophy of "nerf 0.0 now, buff SOON(TM)" and then get distracted and naturally never get to the buff. i don't want to argue about the feature because i don't know pos well, but please remember that if the pos owner sees the siphon before the robber logs in, they can take their goo back again from the siphon, so the theft isn't irrevocable
other than that i don't have experience enough to comment vOv |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:30:00 -
[80] - Quote
Vatek wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:Vatek wrote:Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again. Alliance - even small group of players - can actually do the same with SBUs. Size doesn't really matter as much as the time it take to all put in place, for the little benefit it will give. SBUs cost >10 times as much, can't be crammed by the hundreds into a blockade runner and are very, very visible.
Cost isn't really a turn off when what you want to do is to grief or harass a group of players. My time in your alliance thaught me that at least.
In my opinion, syphon unit's role isn't to "create" an income for the players, but rather a way to harass and be a general nuisance. If you have the time to pack "hundreds" of Syphon unit and able to spread them around a whole nullsec region without being killed, then you are doing exactly what this item is designed for. |
|
Orion Moonstar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:31:00 -
[81] - Quote
Berluth Luthian wrote:I don't really do moon harvesting, but is there not a way to see what gets put in your silos via the API? If so, a simple tool that is showing expected vs. actual output could be a really easy alarm system. Yes, but CCP just said they're going to lie in their API data to prevent this. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2088
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:31:00 -
[82] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:Bienator II wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote: 1. Mobile structures, including the siphon unit, can be probed down (and d-scanned).
well thats very disappointing. Removes everything guerilla from the guerilla warfare feature if you give players 100% intel. This unit doesn't fit into the guerilla warfare part of Rubicon. That's more the mobile cynosural inhibitor deployable, and warp acceleration changes.
eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
447
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:31:00 -
[83] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:Aryth wrote:I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.
Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.
This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs. Can't be more blue than it is now :D And probably renters won't rent moons because people like me will suck their POSs 24/7 and they wont't be able to do anything about it. Big entities will have to live in the area around POSs if they won't most of the moon goo from now on. If they won't live around, than no moon goo :DDD Totally blue with n3 that exists to destroy us, good point there
You won't be blue with them even after this change..lol BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1256
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:31:00 -
[84] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:What level of "monitoring your pos" are you envisioning players should need to perform? Let's assume that you check it once every eight hours (which is rather reasonable: you check it when you wake up, when you go to bed, and also once during the day).
That's already a fairly irritating level of checking your pos. That means that in those eight hours, 20% of your output will be destroyed irrevocably. And if the player is paying attention (because they can pick when they start the siphoning) they get about 80% of your pos output for eight hours, for 20m isk.
This feature is poorly thought out. It's poorly balanced. It's another one of CCP's hamfisted nerfs of 0.0 that should go hand in hand with buffs of 0.0 that are pushed off until "SOON(TM)". It doesn't reward people who use their space: it merely penalizes them a little bit less. It doesn't actually place the people siphoning at risk physically or economically: the siphons make it hilariously easy to break even.
It's a neat feature. It would work well if it was balanced properly, and if there were buffs for people who DO live in their space. But it's sort of half-assed and fits into the general CCP philosophy of "nerf 0.0 now, buff SOON(TM)" and then get distracted and naturally never get to the buff.
With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?
Oh... right... Nyan |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1286
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:32:00 -
[85] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:Aryth wrote:I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.
Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.
This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs. Can't be more blue than it is now :D And probably renters won't rent moons because people like me will suck their POSs 24/7 and they wont't be able to do anything about it. Big entities will have to live in the area around POSs if they won't most of the moon goo from now on. If they won't live around, than no moon goo :DDD
It can get quite a bit more blue than it is now.
Renters don't have a choice on what they rent. They are renters they pay what you tell them to pay. If they aren't getting anything from the moon that isn't our issue we still get paid. They can make it up with more ratting for all we care. Renters by their very definition live in system and will see siphons within minutes/hours typically.
CCP has steadily been encouraging renters more and more with their recent changes. So much so that I was finally able to win the argument internally and get renters. It is very quickly becoming about null vs CCP and when that is truly the mindset in null the response will be everyone squat on their rental kingdoms and lets milk this until the game changes for bottom up income. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
171
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:32:00 -
[86] - Quote
If you want this to be used for it's intended purpose (rather than just aimless griefing by rich players), do this:
1) Price small siphons around 30mil, with 50k EHP 2) Limit them so that a maximum of 2 can be anchored on a single grid, but full ones don't count toward that limit 3) Add an alert mail to the pos owner once the siphon is 50% full 4) DON'T **** WITH THE API |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
447
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:32:00 -
[87] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs. oh wait I get to laugh in your face directly, neat! You're suggesting that the POS owner has muitiple people logged in to fleet and on-grid at POS 23 hours a day in order to defeat one individual who appears at a random time once or twice a day. So, let's say 69-character-hours per day played in order to defeat 3-character-minutes. That is surely good gameplay and sustainable! Let's also mention the fact that the attackers have d-scan and local and can check for traps before even attempting to launch the siphon! Or that if you're using a covert cloaker or Rubicon interceptor you're amazingly difficult to kill anyway unless totally incompetent, even if landing on grid with hostiles! In short you're making a terrible argument and do not know how this game plays out.
Than you won't hold lowsec POSs or those in NPC nullsec. Sry bro for your delicious tears, but you are to stretched. And tnx for the moon goo BALEX, lowsec pirate corp. BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4305
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:33:00 -
[88] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not? Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear. Thank you for the clairification.
Now I can lean back and enjoy POS owner tears as they now have to do more than stop by once a week to spend 3 minutes interacting with their ISK printing press. . |
Dagda Morr
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:33:00 -
[89] - Quote
So just to confirm,
What is considered reasonable is that a POS manager or alliance needs to check every single POS mining or running reactions on the hour for a pair of 10m isk structures or risk having nothing to show? The risk balance for this by the person dropping the siphons is they need 40m3 cargo space?
If we assume that living in nullsec requires you to patrol your space, what kind of game content is an hourly patrol round at the least tens of moons in multiple systems in the hope of catching a cloaker? Is this what CCP have in mind for life in nullsec? Not fighting for territory, roaming for fun, creating stories or enjoying PVE content but and endless travel along a circular route on an hourly basis to check each and every POS? |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
614
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:33:00 -
[90] - Quote
Funny how certain entities are upset they will have to watch their POS, where they will actually have to worry about their profits now. I for one think it's a pleasant idea. Will be fun to deploy them just to mess with people. Cloaky ships, small m3... nice. Now it's the small corps chance to grief the larger entities in game. *removed inappropriate signature* - CCP Eterne |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5247
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:33:00 -
[91] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote: i don't want to argue about the feature because i don't know pos well, but please remember that if the pos owner sees the siphon before the robber logs in, they can take their goo back again from the siphon, so the theft isn't irrevocable
other than that i don't have experience enough to comment vOv
The waste is irrevocable. With two siphons, you lose 20% of your total output every hour permanently. Only the remaining 80% is up for grabs. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1934
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:33:00 -
[92] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Quote:What level of "monitoring your pos" are you envisioning players should need to perform? Let's assume that you check it once every eight hours (which is rather reasonable: you check it when you wake up, when you go to bed, and also once during the day).
That's already a fairly irritating level of checking your pos. That means that in those eight hours, 20% of your output will be destroyed irrevocably. And if the player is paying attention (because they can pick when they start the siphoning) they get about 80% of your pos output for eight hours, for 20m isk.
This feature is poorly thought out. It's poorly balanced. It's another one of CCP's hamfisted nerfs of 0.0 that should go hand in hand with buffs of 0.0 that are pushed off until "SOON(TM)". It doesn't reward people who use their space: it merely penalizes them a little bit less. It doesn't actually place the people siphoning at risk physically or economically: the siphons make it hilariously easy to break even.
It's a neat feature. It would work well if it was balanced properly, and if there were buffs for people who DO live in their space. But it's sort of half-assed and fits into the general CCP philosophy of "nerf 0.0 now, buff SOON(TM)" and then get distracted and naturally never get to the buff. i don't want to argue about the feature because i don't know pos well, but please remember that if the pos owner sees the siphon before the robber logs in, they can take their goo back again from the siphon, so the theft isn't irrevocable other than that i don't have experience enough to comment vOv
Except even in that case there is material destroyed. You lose twelve percent of your mined output, PERIOD, no matter what. So if someone drops one of these before I leave for work, I get punished for having a job. If they do it before I go to sleep, I get punished for sleeping. Or hell, if they live in AUTZ and I'm in USTZ I get punished just because they're in a different timezone. The theft isn't irrecoverable, but the destruction is. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1256
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:34:00 -
[93] - Quote
xttz wrote:If you want this to be used for it's intended purpose (rather than just aimless griefing by rich players), do this:
1) Price small siphons around 30mil, with 50k EHP 2) Limit them so that a maximum of 2 can be anchored on a single grid, but full ones don't count toward that limit 3) Add an alert mail to the pos owner once the siphon is 50% full 4) DON'T **** WITH THE API You sound angry, do you have many POS? Nyan |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5247
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:35:00 -
[94] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote: With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?
Oh... right...
Yes. We do. Those thousands of people are never on grid with a mining pos because they have no reason to be. That's my point. Those thousands of people, using our space, do not actually provide any meaningful advantage over an alt left logged out in the tower. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
447
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:36:00 -
[95] - Quote
xttz wrote:If you want this to be used for it's intended purpose (rather than just aimless griefing by rich players), do this:
1) Price small siphons around 30mil, with 50k EHP 2) Limit them so that a maximum of 2 can be anchored on a single grid, but full ones don't count toward that limit 3) Add an alert mail to the pos owner once the siphon is 50% full 4) DON'T **** WITH THE API
Just lol...
Ohhhh...My first 10 urns are capped. Need more for these Goons tears. BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2088
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:36:00 -
[96] - Quote
i have an idea. why don't you make them appear in local and say "planet X moon Y stole Z units of foo" everytime they are active. Depots could do random bzzzzt noises every time they repair someone or you access the cargo. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Orion Moonstar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:36:00 -
[97] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not? Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear.
So, can I pay PLEX somewhere to disable API and mail notifications when a POS is anchored in someone's space? Can we get the API to lie about corp history, wallet transactions, what players on an account, etc? |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5249
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:37:00 -
[98] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Thank you for the clairification. Now I can lean back and enjoy POS owner tears as they now have to do more than stop by once a week to spend 3 minutes interacting with their ISK printing press. The issue here is that there are only two real forms of alliance income: moons, and renters. Renters have lead to a terribly boring 0.0 where every few months we relentlessly sodomize N3, who then retreats back to their bad space that's all rented out. All this does is make renters even more necessary, which makes it even more necessary to own all the bad regions to rent them out instead of those serving as alliance incubators. |
Jeanne Hilanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:38:00 -
[99] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:What level of "monitoring your pos" are you envisioning players should need to perform? Let's assume that you check it once every eight hours (which is rather reasonable: you check it when you wake up, when you go to bed, and also once during the day).
That's already a fairly irritating level of checking your pos. That means that in those eight hours, 20% of your output will be destroyed irrevocably. And if the player is paying attention (because they can pick when they start the siphoning) they get about 80% of your pos output for eight hours, for 20m isk.
This feature is poorly thought out. It's poorly balanced. It's another one of CCP's hamfisted nerfs of 0.0 that should go hand in hand with buffs of 0.0 that are pushed off until "SOON(TM)". It doesn't reward people who use their space: it merely penalizes them a little bit less. It doesn't actually place the people siphoning at risk physically or economically: the siphons make it hilariously easy to break even.
It's a neat feature. It would work well if it was balanced properly, and if there were buffs for people who DO live in their space. But it's sort of half-assed and fits into the general CCP philosophy of "nerf 0.0 now, buff SOON(TM)" and then get distracted and naturally never get to the buff.
Oh noes, someone might occasionally siphon some of your precious moon goo, how will you ever recover.
|
Fix Lag
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
568
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:39:00 -
[100] - Quote
Aryth wrote: CCP has steadily been encouraging renters more and more with their recent changes. So much so that I was finally able to win the argument internally and get renters. It is very quickly becoming about null vs CCP and when that is truly the mindset in null the response will be everyone squat on their rental kingdoms and lets milk this until the game changes for bottom up income.
A part of me hopes that the CCP guys reading this pick up on the hint that we're going to abuse this feature and/or respond to incentives like ordinary human beings, but the realist in me knows better. Nullsec blows. The only reason I still live there is to defend a flag in space. The money is better elsewhere. More fun can be had elsewhere (in other games entirely, more and more often). What about siphons changes any of this for the better? |
|
Lord Valian
The Forgotten Navy Gentlemen's Agreement
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:40:00 -
[101] - Quote
It just feels like CCP keeps doing everything they can to prevent people from utlizing stuff in 0.0 , maybe fix the afk cloakers first before you add more afk gameplay.
Anyway, why the f*** am I paying for POS guns if they refuse to shoot stuff that is interfering with my POS ? Speaking about POS guns, the whole pos management system has to be reworked because its awful, maybe you should have done that instead.
Maybe you could have added small refueling drones that warp and jump between systems refueling all your, corporations/alliances poses, which can be intercepted and killed? |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1256
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:40:00 -
[102] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote: With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?
Oh... right...
Yes. We do. Those thousands of people are never on grid with a mining pos because they have no reason to be. That's my point. Those thousands of people, using our space, do not actually provide any meaningful advantage over an alt left logged out in the tower. It's called SCANNING, an activity that regular members often partake in. It involves flying through systems looking for some good signatures to run.
The thing that probably upsets you goons is that you don't really do that kind of stuff in the space where the moons are, which seems to indicate this change is rather a good one. Nyan |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
675
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:41:00 -
[103] - Quote
Vatek wrote:Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again. lol--that's the whole point!
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
Leigh Akiga
State War Academy Caldari State
241
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:41:00 -
[104] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs. oh wait I get to laugh in your face directly, neat! You're suggesting that the POS owner has muitiple people logged in to fleet and on-grid at POS 23 hours a day in order to defeat one individual who appears at a random time once or twice a day. So, let's say 69-character-hours per day played in order to defeat 3-character-minutes. That is surely good gameplay and sustainable! Let's also mention the fact that the attackers have d-scan and local and can check for traps before even attempting to launch the siphon! Or that if you're using a covert cloaker or Rubicon interceptor you're amazingly difficult to kill anyway unless totally incompetent, even if landing on grid with hostiles! In short you're making a terrible argument and do not know how this game plays out.
Clearly the intent of sovereignty is to have people available to babysit systems/moons 23.5/7
|
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
447
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:41:00 -
[105] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Thank you for the clairification. Now I can lean back and enjoy POS owner tears as they now have to do more than stop by once a week to spend 3 minutes interacting with their ISK printing press. The issue here is that there are only two real forms of alliance income: moons, and renters. Renters have lead to a terribly boring 0.0 where every few months we relentlessly sodomize N3, who then retreats back to their bad space that's all rented out. All this does is make renters even more necessary, which makes it even more necessary to own all the bad regions to rent them out instead of those serving as alliance incubators.
Well from now on, in order to conquer most of the nullsec, you will need to change the strategy of blobbing everyone.
BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
Dagda Morr
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:41:00 -
[106] - Quote
Something that has been missed - the best organised large groups in 0.0 are the very groups that are able to mass spam regions on the hour with these. This isn't a tool to help the small guy take a poke at the big guys - it's not going to generate content, it's just going to make the dullest thing in eve even duller..... |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
573
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:41:00 -
[107] - Quote
Looks interesting and should hopefully add some fun to the game and make people patrol their space/POS more.
However while I hate to be the negative one all the time... we're only getting small ones with the initial release, where has all the development time for this expansion gone? We're already looking at a lacking expansion in regards to content and not some of that content isn't even going to make it into the full release.
Lieutenant Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1256
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:42:00 -
[108] - Quote
AND THE GOONS BECAME WHAT THEY MOCKED Nyan |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1286
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:42:00 -
[109] - Quote
I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does.
We are the ones that are going to be spamming these across regions. While choking off the supply that we happen to sit on the lions share of. You can think this is about us, but I would point to our track record of doing what is best for EVE. This is far more about the imbalance of the design. The design is flawed on cost vs reward to a huge degree.
I would rather see 50m a siphon but 10 is absurdly low. It is all about hours to earnback. That should be balanced in such a way that the defender and attacker have a reasonable chance of damaging each other. ISK wise. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
326
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:42:00 -
[110] - Quote
mynnna wrote:
Except even in that case there is material destroyed. You lose twelve percent of your mined output, PERIOD, no matter what. So if someone drops one of these before I leave for work, I get punished for having a job. If they do it before I go to sleep, I get punished for sleeping. Or hell, if they live in AUTZ and I'm in USTZ I get punished just because they're in a different timezone. The theft isn't irrecoverable, but the destruction is.
Flip that around?
What if you live in AUTZ and they live in USTZ. They spend 100m to drop 10 of these in a system, and log out to go to bed. You log in, check your POS's, blap the 10 siphons before they have a chance to do anything. Then isn't it him getting punished for different timezone and sleeping? What if he drops them before going to work but you have that day off, and you blap the siphons before they have a chance to do anything but he isn't going to notice for at least 10 hours or so. Is he getting punished for having a job?
There are multiple situations in EVE currently where people can get unlucky with timing based on having RL issues or commitments. So guess what. |
|
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
634
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:44:00 -
[111] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:pmchem wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs. oh wait I get to laugh in your face directly, neat! You're suggesting that the POS owner has muitiple people logged in to fleet and on-grid at POS 23 hours a day in order to defeat one individual who appears at a random time once or twice a day. So, let's say 69-character-hours per day played in order to defeat 3-character-minutes. That is surely good gameplay and sustainable! Let's also mention the fact that the attackers have d-scan and local and can check for traps before even attempting to launch the siphon! Or that if you're using a covert cloaker or Rubicon interceptor you're amazingly difficult to kill anyway unless totally incompetent, even if landing on grid with hostiles! In short you're making a terrible argument and do not know how this game plays out. Than you won't hold lowsec POSs or those in NPC nullsec. Sry bro for your delicious tears, but you are to stretched. And tnx for the moon goo BALEX, lowsec pirate corp.
The afk cloaking will happen _everywhere_ there is a R64 -- not just near NPC stations. Also, my personal income does not rely on moons at all. No tears -- just calling shots. I've ripped on CCP game design similarly in the past, even when I had a vested interest in something being overpowered (see old titan balance threads). I guess CCP will get a few more PLEX off the Jita market from dudes subbing those alts. The real goal of this game design?
I'm all in favor of asymmetric gameplay, but AFK cloaking is terrible gameplay for everyone (HURRR I LOGIN A CHARACTER, CLOAK, AND DO NOTHING WHILE AT WORK ALL DAY THIS IS A GREAT GAME) and this feature highly rewards it. @pmchem on twitter || GARPA || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
785
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:44:00 -
[112] - Quote
would be awesome if it could be placed outside point/web range of pos'es, perhaps later versions can be placed further away? (placed so it's still within turret range, but in range where one can go scoop, and warp, even if getting shot a little by the pos) Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
Jeanne Hilanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:45:00 -
[113] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote: With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?
Oh... right...
Yes. We do. Those thousands of people are never on grid with a mining pos because they have no reason to be. That's my point. Those thousands of people, using our space, do not actually provide any meaningful advantage over an alt left logged out in the tower.
What a bunch of bullshit. it takes less than a minute to dscan check a system. If you have people actually LIVING in a system, you can very quickly spot these |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5251
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:46:00 -
[114] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote: Just lol...
Ohhhh...My first 10 urns are capped. Need more for these Goons tears.
I believe this post, and the Marlona posts, make my point quite well. There's no solid arguments about why these are well-balanced being presented. The sole argument being presented is the same one we always see when a goon is correctly pointing out something that's unbalanced: some nitwit saying, well, the above. You saw it with blap titans, for example. |
Callic Veratar
481
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:46:00 -
[115] - Quote
With a max 50km deploy range, you'll always be in the range of POS guns when you deploy the syphon. You can't cloak while locked and interceptors have almost no tank. Not sure how AFK cloaking is a problem here. |
Sasha Angelis
Airkio Mining Corp Gentlemen's Agreement
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:46:00 -
[116] - Quote
Orion Moonstar wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:[...]
Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear. So, can I pay PLEX somewhere to disable API and mail notifications when a POS is anchored in someone's space? Can we get the API to lie about corp history, wallet transactions, what players on an account, etc?
^ This
I really dont like where this is going ...
Callic Veratar wrote:With a max 50km deploy range, you'll always be in the range of POS guns when you deploy the syphon. You can't cloak while locked and interceptors have almost no tank. Not sure how AFK cloaking is a problem here. Reading the blog: There is no anchoring/onlining time. Warp in. Rightclick > Deploy Warp out.
5s at max. POS modules take much longer to lock in frigates. |
The Warfish
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:47:00 -
[117] - Quote
Will destroyed Siphons result in a Structure Killmail, a la POS Modules?
If not, it should. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1256
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:47:00 -
[118] - Quote
pmchem wrote:I'm all in favor of asymmetric gameplay, but AFK cloaking is terrible gameplay for everyone (HURRR I LOGIN A CHARACTER, CLOAK, AND DO NOTHING WHILE AT WORK ALL DAY THIS IS A GREAT GAME) and this feature highly rewards it. If you don't have someone doing a scan for sigs in your system every 3 hours or so, why should you get any moon goo? Clearly you're just sitting on deserted space.
I was under the impression that was one of the things broken with EVE; lots of deserted space. Nyan |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5251
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:47:00 -
[119] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote: It's called SCANNING, an activity that regular members often partake in. It involves flying through systems looking for some good signatures to run.
The thing that probably upsets you goons is that you don't really do that kind of stuff in the space where the moons are, which seems to indicate this change is rather a good one.
See, this is the caliber of person that supports this: the kind that thinks that scanning for sigs or anoms is the same kind of scanning that would turn up a siphon. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1287
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:48:00 -
[120] - Quote
Jeanne Hilanen wrote:Weaselior wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote: With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?
Oh... right...
Yes. We do. Those thousands of people are never on grid with a mining pos because they have no reason to be. That's my point. Those thousands of people, using our space, do not actually provide any meaningful advantage over an alt left logged out in the tower. What a bunch of bullshit. it takes less than a minute to dscan check a system. If you have people actually LIVING in a system, you can very quickly spot these
Not before they have been profitable in the middle of a timezone you sleep in.
Most corporations (the unit of measurement typically owning a system) are generally strong in a single timezone. I have no issue with requiring people to live in their space as we have been the biggest champions of that. Requiring them to check their towers 3x a day is dumb as hell though. EVE is enough of a job as it is. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
|
Klyith
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:48:00 -
[121] - Quote
Not going to get involved with the main debate, but just wanted to mention:
If a Siphon has 100k EHP, they're going to be really annoying to kill with anything but POS guns. So the idea that people who "use their space" will be protected is not really effective. Most members of the corp/alliance that has the moon are not able to use the POS guns (both permissions, and the anchoring 5 requirement to train the skill).
So if a guy sees a siphon on one of his alliance towers and wants to get rid of it, they'd have to shoot the thing for almost 2 minutes even with a high-dps BS or T3 BC. Much longer with a ship that someone might fly as a roaming patrol. That's a pretty annoying chore when they can be pooped out by the dozen.
With the things costing 10mil and being incredibly spammable, I'd hope you go with the very low side of that proposed EHP. If the idea is to promote nullsec alliances having better cooperation and "living in their space", it's dumb to make them into bricks that need to be shot with POS guns to clear. |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
172
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:48:00 -
[122] - Quote
It should be a bit of a red flag when CCP come up with the cheapest griefing tool in EVE for years, and GoonSwarm are the ones saying "hang on that's a bit much".
What exactly do you lot think this is going to do to the Tech 2 market when virtually no one is getting moon materials without interruption? We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?
The Tech 2 materials market has just been handed back to big alliances. We're going to grief the **** out of everyone if this remains unchanged, and make bank while doing so. |
Vatek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
83
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:49:00 -
[123] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:With a max 50km deploy range, you'll always be in the range of POS guns when you deploy the syphon. You can't cloak while locked and interceptors have almost no tank. Not sure how AFK cloaking is a problem here.
POS guns take a long time to lock and these have no anchor or online timers. You can launch one and immedlately warp off. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1103
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:50:00 -
[124] - Quote
Quote:Siphon units are deployed the same as other personal deployables, where you just need to deploy, there is no anchoring or onlining. Once deployed, a siphon unit cannot be scooped up again. The name of the player that deployed the siphon unit is visible in Show Info.
meh We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1935
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:51:00 -
[125] - Quote
Klyith wrote:Not going to get involved with the main debate, but just wanted to mention:
If a Siphon has 100k EHP, they're going to be really annoying to kill with anything but POS guns. So the idea that people who "use their space" will be protected is not really effective. Most members of the corp/alliance that has the moon are not able to use the POS guns (both permissions, and the anchoring 5 requirement to train the skill).
So if a guy sees a siphon on one of his alliance towers and wants to get rid of it, they'd have to shoot the thing for almost 2 minutes even with a high-dps BS or T3 BC. Much longer with a ship that someone might fly as a roaming patrol. That's a pretty annoying chore when they can be pooped out by the dozen.
With the things costing 10mil and being incredibly spammable, I'd hope you go with the very low side of that proposed EHP. If the idea is to promote nullsec alliances having better cooperation and "living in their space", it's dumb to make them into bricks that need to be shot with POS guns to clear. POS guns are ****, so they'll be really annoying to kill with those too. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
172
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:51:00 -
[126] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:With a max 50km deploy range, you'll always be in the range of POS guns when you deploy the syphon. You can't cloak while locked and interceptors have almost no tank. Not sure how AFK cloaking is a problem here.
POS guns haven't been rebalanced in years and take ages to lock anything. Covops and interceptors can easily drop these with zero risk. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4842
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:51:00 -
[127] - Quote
Vatek wrote:Callic Veratar wrote:With a max 50km deploy range, you'll always be in the range of POS guns when you deploy the syphon. You can't cloak while locked and interceptors have almost no tank. Not sure how AFK cloaking is a problem here. POS guns take a long time to lock and these have no anchor or online timers. You can launch one and immedlately warp off. Some people have never played around a hostile pos I see There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1662
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:51:00 -
[128] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:benny is wrong mynnna wrote:benny is wrong :X i am an idiot and will report to the execution chambers for biomatter reclaiming |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
907
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:52:00 -
[129] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does.
Indeed, and because of this I'm surprised that you've failed to see the potential for your alliance.
As you say, your alliance will be much better placed to deal with the consequences than your competitors, while you also have a playerbase with the numbers and penchant for griefing that will be able to make full use of this module in hostile space. The siphon meshes perfectly with Goons' public philosophy.
But remember, you don't need to check every POS, just use dscan. Hell, probes are probably even easier. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4842
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:52:00 -
[130] - Quote
xttz wrote:We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that? Well when you put it this way it looks like content for our newbies...
And an incentive to train torp bombers or pos gunning skills... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2277
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:53:00 -
[131] - Quote
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:Make it so you can offline and make it cloak please.
nerf afk cloaking siphons Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1256
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:53:00 -
[132] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote: It's called SCANNING, an activity that regular members often partake in. It involves flying through systems looking for some good signatures to run.
The thing that probably upsets you goons is that you don't really do that kind of stuff in the space where the moons are, which seems to indicate this change is rather a good one.
See, this is the caliber of person that supports this: the kind that thinks that scanning for sigs or anoms is the same kind of scanning that would turn up a siphon. Scanning for sigs referred to the type of player who flies from system-to-system in used space.
I wonder how you train your scouts, do you send them to gates and tell them to go for a nap? Nyan |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4842
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:53:00 -
[133] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Aryth wrote:I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does. Indeed, and because of this I'm surprised that you've failed to see the potential for your alliance. As you say, your alliance will be much better placed to deal with the consequences than your competitors, while you also have a playerbase with the numbers and penchant for griefing that will be able to make full use of this module in hostile space. The siphon meshes perfectly with Goons' public philosophy. But remember, you don't need to check every POS, just use dscan. Hell, probes are probably even easier. Remember when cfc people were saying to nerf tech There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1935
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:54:00 -
[134] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Aryth wrote:I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does. Indeed, and because of this I'm surprised that you've failed to see the potential for your alliance. As you say, your alliance will be much better placed to deal with the consequences than your competitors, while you also have a playerbase with the numbers and penchant for griefing that will be able to make full use of this module in hostile space. The siphon meshes perfectly with Goons' public philosophy. But remember, you don't need to check every POS, just use dscan. Hell, probes are probably even easier.
How fortunate that every single system in nullsec is worth living in so someone will be there to check.
Oh wait no most of them are garbage and the mechanics do little to change that. Just one of the many problems holding back the "balkanization" so many people claim to desire. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
675
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:54:00 -
[135] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does.
We are the ones that are going to be spamming these across regions. While choking off the supply that we happen to sit on the lions share of. You can think this is about us, but I would point to our track record of doing what is best for EVE. This is far more about the imbalance of the design. The design is flawed on cost vs reward to a huge degree.
I would rather see 50m a siphon but 10 is absurdly low. It is all about hours to earnback. That should be balanced in such a way that the defender and attacker have a reasonable chance of damaging each other. ISK wise. That's cool spin, Aryth, but if you think you won't be one of the larger impacted, based solely on the amount of POS towers/moons you guys will now have to babysit or lose income, you're mistaken, or, as I said, nice try to spin it. Even if your response is "oh we'll have our mighty numbers check POSes around them," you'll still have to wonder if Joe Regulargoon is going to 1) steal the profits for themselves and report everything is fine or 2) actually say that they destroyed a siphon. My guess is they'll sneak over to the siphon and collect the bounty for themselves.
I think these siphon units are gold for CCP's goal of creating harass/nuisances for POS owners. Imagine this: the incentive will be to build a POS and cultivate its spoils. If you are inattentive to it, then you lose out. Simple as that. It's even better when you consider that wormholers will be able to take hundreds of these throwaway deployables back to their homes with them, pop out wherever the exits take them, deploy their theft units--just to harass--and be on their way. Some random pilot shows up (cloaky, of course, because he's in a new SOE ship) and collects from the siphons.
Wonderful modules, CCP. Just by reading all the nullhurt in this thread indicates that you're on the right direction. It's when all the nullblocs are raving about the changes--highsec POCOS--that you really ought to be concerned.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
635
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:54:00 -
[136] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Aryth wrote:I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does. Indeed, and because of this I'm surprised that you've failed to see the potential for your alliance.
We don't fail to see ****. We're just rich as hell and want this game to actually get better so it's worth PLEXing our several accounts each month. Bad gameplay is bad gameplay for everyone. @pmchem on twitter || GARPA || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Kwa Zulu
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:56:00 -
[137] - Quote
I like what I've seen so far! |
|
CCP Paradox
1020
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:56:00 -
[138] - Quote
The Warfish wrote:Will destroyed Siphons result in a Structure Killmail, a la POS Modules?
If not, it should.
Yes, Kill Reports will be generated including the information on what was dropped/destroyed. CCP Paradox | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Super Friends @CCP_Paradox |
|
The Warfish
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:56:00 -
[139] - Quote
Thread moving fast, so will ask (and suggest) again.
These Siphons must provide players will Structure Killmails, like most other deployable Alliance-level-Warfare Structures do.
Simply be providing players with a statistic reward (a kill) for destroying them, it will create the impetus for some players to want to scan them down and pop them for their Alliances/Corporations.
It's also backed by the idea that killmails are for conflict/war. A Siphon is direct economic warfare via theft. Killing it is like killing a POS itself, or killing an SBU.
Make these give killmails.
EDIT: Dev Reply, nice. Thank you for clarification, and good job thinking this through. Kudos. |
Berluth Luthian
Meltdown.
116
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:57:00 -
[140] - Quote
I like the 10 mill ish cost. In a 24 hour cycle with current prices, you could make 30-40 mill (-10 mill siphon cost) if you could get a full load off from R64 raw materials moons. But it almost wouldn't be worth the risk, because if someone found half a days supply and stole it from you, then you'd lose your profit. The processed materials would be where the bank is at.
However, I wonder if this could create the possibility for people who may just want to siphon raw materials at a small cost, so that they can then process them themselves? |
|
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2277
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:57:00 -
[141] - Quote
ONE-MAN WOLF-PACK wrote:I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE!
I DRINK IT UP! *SLUURRRP*
FIFY.
Learn your quotes! You get a +1 anyways though for making me giggle.
Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |
Orion Moonstar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:57:00 -
[142] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:The Warfish wrote:Will destroyed Siphons result in a Structure Killmail, a la POS Modules?
If not, it should. Yes, Kill Reports will be generated including the information on what was dropped/destroyed.
Can we get the API data on that fudged too, please? |
Vatek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
83
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:58:00 -
[143] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:The Warfish wrote:Will destroyed Siphons result in a Structure Killmail, a la POS Modules?
If not, it should. Yes, Kill Reports will be generated including the information on what was dropped/destroyed.
Is this ever going to be extended to pos mods? |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1662
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:58:00 -
[144] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:I think these siphon units are gold for CCP's goal of creating harass/nuisances for POS owners. from their reputation you'd guess pos management was enough of a nuisance alone
i wonder why these are coming out before the pos interface gets its rework? |
Jack bubu
GK inc. Pandemic Legion
464
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:59:00 -
[145] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does.
We are the ones that are going to be spamming these across regions. While choking off the supply that we happen to sit on the lions share of. You can think this is about us, but I would point to our track record of doing what is best for EVE. This is far more about the imbalance of the design. The design is flawed on cost vs reward to a huge degree.
I would rather see 50m a siphon but 10 is absurdly low. It is all about hours to earnback. That should be balanced in such a way that the defender and attacker have a reasonable chance of damaging each other. ISK wise. If you keep spinning that fast you might take off m8 |
Vatek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
83
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:00:00 -
[146] - Quote
Anybody posting in this thread with HAHA SUCK ON THAT POS HAVERS attitudes has clearly never owned or operated a pos before. It's already ****** enough. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1256
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:02:00 -
[147] - Quote
Orion Moonstar wrote:CCP Paradox wrote:The Warfish wrote:Will destroyed Siphons result in a Structure Killmail, a la POS Modules?
If not, it should. Yes, Kill Reports will be generated including the information on what was dropped/destroyed. Can we get the API data on that fudged too, please? Mmmm... fudge.... Nyan |
|
CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
385
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:04:00 -
[148] - Quote
The Warfish wrote:Will destroyed Siphons result in a Structure Killmail, a la POS Modules?
If not, it should.
They will. |
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1288
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:04:00 -
[149] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Aryth wrote:I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does. Indeed, and because of this I'm surprised that you've failed to see the potential for your alliance. As you say, your alliance will be much better placed to deal with the consequences than your competitors, while you also have a playerbase with the numbers and penchant for griefing that will be able to make full use of this module in hostile space. The siphon meshes perfectly with Goons' public philosophy. But remember, you don't need to check every POS, just use dscan. Hell, probes are probably even easier.
You are assuming I haven't see how well it helps us. We have known for quite some time our endgame in T2. This only accelerates it and probably lines our pockets more than anyone's in EVE by far. We control most of the r64s and by extension the T2 market.
I am telling CCP in good faith this is not balanced. This design is bad, if you go down this path it is bad for EVE. It doesn't mean it is bad for our wallet. The very nature of this change as presented pretty much assures we make more ISK because the people that do manage to control their goo will profit greatly. That will be us.
This will become a mass manip tool not some individual guerrilla mechanic. You made things so cheap you don't even need to GET the goo, just spam and laugh as huge portions of supply dies.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Dracnys
36
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:05:00 -
[150] - Quote
While I like the general idea of giving the small guy a way to annoy the big guys I have a few concerns here:
- Way too cheap. Siphoning units should cost at least 30m. Otherwise deploying and then losing them is completely meaningless. I think they should repay themselves in about 72 hours of siphoning.
- They shouldn't stack. If there are two of them on one tower it should only double their cargo capacity and not the amount siphoned per hour.
- 25 hours until full is not enough, make this 72 hours. Many players hate "having" to log in for something (skill queue, updating orders, checking siphon, patrolling POS) and even though it is a way to keep them log they tend to burn out quickly.
- Too small in cargohold. 20m3 for something that can hold 1200 when deployed? A frigate shouldn't be able to carry more than one.
- Having the API lie is a really bad solution. I don't have a great alternative either but I feel like all information given by API should be trustworthy.
- Have a skill that limits how many a player can deploy. Let's say 5 from the beginning up to a maximum of 10. Otherwise people will just fly around in a covops hauler and cover every single worthwhile moon in a region.
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Felicity Love
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
903
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:06:00 -
[151] - Quote
Where's the effective "cost" of operating this structure ?
There should be a fuel consumption requirement, which is also in line with the stated desire by CCP to make resources more of a conflict issue.
It could be "cap charges" or isotopes... whatever. There has to be some "cost" involved for operation.
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |
Rekkr Nordgard
The Ardency of Faith Filthy Bastards
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:07:00 -
[152] - Quote
I can't decide which I love more; the moon siphon itself or all the Goon tears it's generating. :D
Keep up the great work on this, CCP. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1259
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:07:00 -
[153] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:They will. What event/timer/etc will reset the API fudge value for siphoned POSes? Nyan |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1104
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:09:00 -
[154] - Quote
Alright:
this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.
instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:
i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.
We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1259
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:09:00 -
[155] - Quote
Dracnys wrote:While I like the general idea of giving the small guy a way to annoy the big guys I have a few concerns here:
- Way too cheap. Siphoning units should cost at least 30m. Otherwise deploying and then losing them is completely meaningless. I think they should repay themselves in about 72 hours of siphoning.
- They shouldn't stack. If there are two of them on one tower it should only double their cargo capacity and not the amount siphoned per hour.
- 25 hours until full is not enough, make this 72 hours. Many players hate "having" to log in for something (skill queue, updating orders, checking siphon, patrolling POS) and even though it is a way to keep them log they tend to burn out quickly.
- Too small in cargohold. 20m3 for something that can hold 1200 when deployed? A frigate shouldn't be able to carry more than one.
- Having the API lie is a really bad solution. I don't have a great alternative either but I feel like all information given by API should be trustworthy.
- Have a skill that limits how many a player can deploy. Let's say 5 from the beginning up to a maximum of 10. Otherwise people will just fly around in a covops hauler and cover every single worthwhile moon in a region.
This is a good alt post. Nyan |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4311
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:09:00 -
[156] - Quote
Loving all these afk pos owner tears in this thread. God forbid you actually need to spend more than 3 minutes a week fueling and grabbing goo right? . |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1355
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:09:00 -
[157] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:20m3 does seem tiny compared to how big the actual unit will be when deployed... how can you make something shrink that much into a cargo-bay ... surely it should be more cargo-ship sized like 1200m3 if it is going too be able to store that much surely it should have to be that size to begin with .. especially with cov-op frigs or inties they could easily exploit these things going from POS to POS without be catch-able it seems a little unbalanced to me.
ask dr who is size matters There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Kwa Zulu
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:11:00 -
[158] - Quote
After rereading requesting one change to the plans: change the volume of the module to such a size that it is not possible to deploy these with frigsize shipclasses. There needs to be a balanced risk |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1937
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:11:00 -
[159] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Alright:
this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.
instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:
i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.
hahaha look at these goon tears so delicio
hey
wait Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Jeanne Hilanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:12:00 -
[160] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Alright:
this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.
instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:
i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.
And this is a bad thing because? Why should your towers be able to extract in complete safety in all timezones? |
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Klyith
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:12:00 -
[161] - Quote
xttz wrote:We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?
Also we just finished a moon scan of the damn close to the whole of Eve, and know where all the moons are. Such as the ones in other people's space. Our Blops guys won't even have to fly around to find towers to put them on. They can just go directly to all the r64s.
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:I can't decide which I love more; the moon siphon itself or all the Goon tears it's generating. :D
Hey CCP, you should introduce more things that will wreck the game and make it easier for GSF put the rest of nullsec over a barrel. Goon tears! Goons tears! They cry when the game gets more boring! twisted twisted twisted |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1355
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:12:00 -
[162] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Alright:
this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.
instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:
i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.
hmmm in a MMO that is live 23/7 heaven forbit you might have to make friends with those darn americans and Australians... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4842
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:13:00 -
[163] - Quote
Klyith wrote:xttz wrote:We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?
Also we just finished a moon scan of the damn close to the whole of Eve, and know where all the moons are. Such as the ones in other people's space. Our Blops guys won't even have to fly around to find towers to put them on. They can just go directly to all the r64s. Rekkr Nordgard wrote:I can't decide which I love more; the moon siphon itself or all the Goon tears it's generating. :D
Hey CCP, you should introduce more things that will wreck the game and make it easier for GSF put the rest of nullsec over a barrel. Goon tears! Goons tears! They cry when the game gets more boring! twisted twisted twisted So basically, we just need to make trillions off it and get it trouble for massive manipulations, again There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1239
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:14:00 -
[164] - Quote
I like it, but watching this thread increase possiblity that it will be changet
The cost of 10 mils is ok, increasing it may only decrease the ammount of people that will use them.
But anyway you need to live in the space you have the POS... to decrease the chance of loosing stuff
It can be d-scaned so its not that big problem |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4751
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:15:00 -
[165] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.
Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.
This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs. Or you could simply make sure that whoever lives in that space is responsible for blowing up siphons whenever detected, which is childs play because they show up on Dscan or to probes. Usually people doing anoms in the system will detect any new siphons and blow the little buggers out of the sky, or give a heads up to the owner of the POS (probably the former, and will keep whatever little bit of material that has been siphoned off as a tip for services rendered).
Either way the person "seeding" the siphons will quickly learn what systems are pointless to seed and quit throwing away money and time trying to do so. When they do find a system that is sparsely inhabited, has a POS worth siphoning from, and has a lax owner he might make some isk for a limited time. Hopefully enough to offset the money lost on detected and blown up siphons, and the time wasted on this rather large daily effort. Again, these siphons will fill up quick and will need to be checked frequently... and any one of them could actually be a trap to decloak and kill you.
So no, not so simple. I know you guys are worried about this a bit, but in this rare case I think self interest is coloring your usual object analysis of new content.
One interesting question... do you have to get close enough to decloak yourself when emptying a siphon? To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
449
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:16:00 -
[166] - Quote
Hey guys, you know how pos mechanics suck? Why not make them worse?
SOUNDS GREAT.
When are we getting those improved POS's again? Right after walking in stations, right? |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1292
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:17:00 -
[167] - Quote
Jeanne Hilanen wrote:Gilbaron wrote:Alright:
this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.
instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:
i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.
And this is a bad thing because? Why should your towers be able to extract in complete safety in all timezones?
No one is saying towers should extract safely. At least not that I have seen. They are saying that siphons are so cheap that there is no meaning to losing one or spamming them and by extension being profitable to do while an owner sleeps. I can tell you that we would spam 100's or 1000's of these without thinking about it. That is the problem, the ISK/reward isn't balanced. Change that and maybe not allow multiples per tower and all is well.
But hey, if you guys thought SBU spam by us was bad, wait until you see this. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
|
CCP Legion
80
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:17:00 -
[168] - Quote
Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required. CCP Legion | Product Owner of Team Super Friends and Team Kuromaku | Twitter: @CCP_Legion |
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Sparkus Volundar
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:17:00 -
[169] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.
Sorry for probably unneeded question about potential bug: This reporting will account for the 20% loss? Just asking because "what is syphoned" sounds potentially different to what was mined/made.
Thanks, Sparks . |
Misch Na Tekla
Unkown Mining Venture
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:19:00 -
[170] - Quote
The siphon units seem totally unbalance.
Siphon units are not automatically attacked by POS guns. Players can take manual control of POS guns to shoot at a siphon unit.
Why should POS guns not attack these items? Isn't that what they are for POS defence. POS defences cost CPU and PG impact on POS requirements. Suddenly super exemption tool with no
If POSes are to monitored 23.5 hours each day to prevent siphoning, then CCP should be equal in applying effort to keep siphoning running (i.e. requires 23.5 hours a day of active work )
If siphons are getting a special exemption on POS defences and notifications then requires effort by aggressor some suggestions:
Option 1)
POS exemption cause siphon to be unstable and decay, requires a certain amount of repairing each hour to keep in up. No risk no reward. (i.e. no repair after 45 minutes it is destroyed or offlines until repaired).
Option 2)
Requires fuel to run and must be fueled every hour. Fuel bay big enough for 1 hour of fuel.
Option 3) If CCP does not want 23.5 hours (mind safety and legal implications from this gameplay requirement)
Anti siphon deployable structures. These structure destroy or interfere with siphons. Must be destroyed before siphon will work. If effort got be put in to destroy siphon, then efforts got to be put in to deploy siphon.
Personal opinion: Siphon are way overpowered. Is CCP creating the next Crimewatch by putting exemptions and poor coding. Unintended consequences.
New feature should have balance in effort form attackers and defenders, not special biasis one way.
|
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Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1335
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:19:00 -
[171] - Quote
Congratulations, CCP. You managed to turn POSes from the ideal source of PvP-driven income (fighting over moons) into something that's somehow more soul-crushignly boring than PvE (log in alt, check overview, log out, repeat every 3 hours 24/7).
10/10, next time consult ALI Virgo in F&I, he has better ideas than this. |
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CCP Tuxford
C C P C C P Alliance
575
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:20:00 -
[172] - Quote
Sparkus Volundar wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Sorry for probably unneeded question about potential bug: This reporting will account for the 20% loss? Just asking because "what is syphoned" sounds potentially different to what was mined/made. Thanks, Sparks Yes it will account for the lossed items as well. The idea is that you wouldn't notice that you were being siphoned from the API.
https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates |
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The Warfish
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:20:00 -
[173] - Quote
Regarding Game Design:
Passive Income Streams should be the mopst at-risk income stream to active player intervention. The more active you (the owner) are, the less at-risk your income stream should be. Fully active income streams in EVE are actually the most dangerous/risky way to isk, as death from other pilots is always a concern outside High-Sec.
So while I think people appreciate that POS management is hard, POS owners should also realize that it's a mostly passive activity. Unlike Plex'ing, Ratting, Exploration of PvP, POS Operation does not require a direct one-for-one injection of time/effort -> isk.
In my view, POS's and Planetary Interaction should be the most easy isk-streams to interupt, steal from, disturb, disrupt, etc. The counter is that game design should create elements where additional active work on that stream meaningfully reduces the risk posed to it if it was left purely passive.
I believe this design meets that challenge.
If you want full income from your POS, a Corporate/Alliance level asset, you'll need to monitor it yourself more actively, or encourage your Corp/Alliance to actively police the space in which it lives/operates POS's.
Clearly, the most at-risk POS's here will be those of AFK Empires and AFK players who pop in once to fuel, then pop out again. And thats as it should be.
All of these factors should result in smaller empires and more policed Nullsec Space, opening opportunitires for renters/new nullsec holder, and promoting more PvP conflict as Alliances work to defend their lived-in space from raiders. |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
113
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:20:00 -
[174] - Quote
I think the price is right, but the size is too small. Not every moon in the game is a R32 or R64.
They should be at least 120M3 so the soon to be uncatchable interceptors can't carry 6 or more in their holds.
if you don't want to check 1000 posses, than don't and find out if they're siphones when you empty them....
I like the goon posing CTA though Baddest poster ever |
June Ting
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:21:00 -
[175] - Quote
I'd rather see the contents of silos *not* reported in the API than see the API actively lying about the contents of silos. Allowing APIs to return falsified data is really not a great precedent to set, and I'm sure will be fragile in all kinds of ways. I fight for the freedom of my people. |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
449
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:22:00 -
[176] - Quote
CCP Legion wrote:Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.
Oh yes, minor rebalancing. Awesome. CCP's new catch phrase.
I mean, pos guns, those need rebalancing. You'll do it right after that, right? It only took a full year of tech problems before you rebalanced that. Or Titan guns. Or Dominion sov. Or Faction Warfare. Or Level 4 missions...
Yes, rebalancing. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1355
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:22:00 -
[177] - Quote
CCP Legion wrote:Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.
this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.
the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:28:00 -
[178] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.
the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy.
Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1104
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:29:00 -
[179] - Quote
Jeanne Hilanen wrote:Gilbaron wrote:Alright:
this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups from our coalition. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.
instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:
i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason whatsoever to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.
And this is a bad thing because? Why should your towers be able to extract in complete safety in all timezones?
never said that they should be safe to extract
i said that there should be some way or another for the POS owner to defend himself against these things. i for one would propose some kind of timer mechanic, so that a full syphon unit can only be picked up in a timeframe set by the defender.
As the Attacker: If you don't show up to grab the package (and be willing to fight for it) you loose it.
As the Defender: If you leave your POS undefended you will loose ypur stuff, if you show up with a bunch of small ships to defend it you might actually get a fight.
We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Makalu Zarya
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
98
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:30:00 -
[180] - Quote
this entire mechanic is broken beyond belief.
There are people out there who work rather hard to keep their reaction chains going, it's a many hours per day or week job. Yes they make tons of money but it's not free money. I know people with 20 reaction towers in the same system and they are basically a 1-2 man corp.
You've just made their life entirely much much worse. Now they will be faced with 2 options. Either tear down their reaction chains entirely (which will lead to t2 everything going up in price if enough people do it) or watch their massive tower chains day and night making it a nearly full time job.
Given then number of people out there these things will be spammed all over the place making it a near impossible task to keep up with them on any sort of reasonable basis, eventually tower owners will just give up. Ultimately this will result in a lot less production towers which will result in increased prices on everything. Way to make pos people's life ever worse than it already is. You've truly shown you have no idea what you are doing once again CCP, way to go. |
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IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
69
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:31:00 -
[181] - Quote
CCP Legion wrote:Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.
I'm not a game development expert or anything ,but why not just balance it BEFORE you implement it into the game? |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5258
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:32:00 -
[182] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Sparkus Volundar wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Sorry for probably unneeded question about potential bug: This reporting will account for the 20% loss? Just asking because "what is syphoned" sounds potentially different to what was mined/made. Thanks, Sparks Yes it will account for the lossed items as well. The idea is that you wouldn't notice that you were being siphoned from the API. When the siphon is dead does our api go back to being useful, or is there going to be ghost minerals in there forever? |
Vatek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
85
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:32:00 -
[183] - Quote
CCP Legion wrote:Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.
Release broken, fix later. Cool. |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
69
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:33:00 -
[184] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:CCP Legion wrote:Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required. this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen. the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy.
It's the opposite actually.
Jabber leak:
(11:16:23 AM) aryth: this isn't going to crush us. it will crush everyone who doesn't rent (11:16:31 AM) aryth: which means everyone will rent. which means everyone will donut up (11:16:34 AM) aryth: which kills eve |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1355
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:33:00 -
[185] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:MeBiatch wrote:this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.
the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy. Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you.
how so?
i intend of setting up shop in a region near you... i will directly bene from increased moon min value because i will be selling your moon mins.
face it... the days of owning 9 regions are comming to an end... no longer will greater number eq. greater isk income without activly defending all your space. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5258
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:33:00 -
[186] - Quote
CCP Legion wrote:Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.
You don't need metrics to know how this will be used. It's 10m. It's 20m3. And "we'll balance this SOON(TM)" is not really a great response given that soon never comes. |
Rekkr Nordgard
The Ardency of Faith Filthy Bastards
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:34:00 -
[187] - Quote
Klyith wrote:Hey CCP, you should introduce more things that will wreck the game and make it easier for GSF put the rest of nullsec over a barrel. Goon tears! Goons tears! They cry when the game gets more boring! twisted twisted twisted
ahhhhh how sad, show me where CCP touched your passive ISK printing machines. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1104
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:34:00 -
[188] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Gilbaron wrote:Alright:
this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.
instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:
i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.
hmmm in a MMO that is live 23/7 heaven forbit you might have to make friends with those darn americans and Australians...
We did, not that much of a problem. but our friends are going to hate having to mini structure grind for us because they can't man our POS guns without having alts in our corp. We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1360
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:36:00 -
[189] - Quote
IrJosy wrote: It's the opposite actually.
Jabber leak:
(11:16:23 AM) aryth: this isn't going to crush us. it will crush everyone who doesn't rent (11:16:31 AM) aryth: which means everyone will rent. which means everyone will donut up (11:16:34 AM) aryth: which kills eve
This mechanic is the single greatest pro-blue donut mechanic.
not sure why this will increase renters?
will you give a discount to renters who activly monitor your poses in a constilation?
like defend out poses from shyphon and you get to rent for 50% discount? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
329
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:36:00 -
[190] - Quote
I Love Boobies wrote:Funny how certain entities are upset they will have to watch their POS, where they will actually have to worry about their profits now. I for one think it's a pleasant idea. Will be fun to deploy them just to mess with people. Cloaky ships, small m3... nice. Now it's the small corps chance to grief the larger entities in game.
This says everything I was going to. Want Dust514 district ownership to matter? Want to nuke someone's PI from orbit? Read here:
http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2013/09/dust514-and-future-of-planetary.html |
|
Shonion
FREE GATES
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:37:00 -
[191] - Quote
I start feeling that ccp hates normal people, whose has family, work, school, life.... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1360
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:37:00 -
[192] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Gilbaron wrote:Alright:
this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.
instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:
i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.
hmmm in a MMO that is live 23/7 heaven forbit you might have to make friends with those darn americans and Australians... We did, not that much of a problem. but our friends are going to hate having to mini structure grind for us because they can't man our POS guns without having alts in our corp.
well if its 50k ehp that what like 5 nadoes roaming around? its not a problem if you actively monitor all your space... its just entities like you and goons happen to own huge swaths of space... and there is where the annoyance comes from. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
70
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:38:00 -
[193] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:IrJosy wrote: It's the opposite actually.
Jabber leak:
(11:16:23 AM) aryth: this isn't going to crush us. it will crush everyone who doesn't rent (11:16:31 AM) aryth: which means everyone will rent. which means everyone will donut up (11:16:34 AM) aryth: which kills eve
This mechanic is the single greatest pro-blue donut mechanic.
not sure why this will increase renters? will you give a discount to renters who activly monitor your poses in a constilation? like defend out poses from shyphon and you get to rent for 50% discount?
If goons siphon all of your moon income. How do you pay for your alliance? With renters! |
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
290
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:38:00 -
[194] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Quote:GÇóSiphon units also have a waste factor (assumed to be lost in transit). This wastes (destroys) a portion of what is stolen. The waste factor for the Small Mobile Siphon Unit is 20%.
any chance we can get a skill for siphon unit efficiancy... what it would do is reduce the waste factor by 3% per level. so that way at level V the waste would only be 5%.
That wouldn't really make sense for a deployable you might be half the universe away from after dropping. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1360
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:39:00 -
[195] - Quote
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:I Love Boobies wrote:Funny how certain entities are upset they will have to watch their POS, where they will actually have to worry about their profits now. I for one think it's a pleasant idea. Will be fun to deploy them just to mess with people. Cloaky ships, small m3... nice. Now it's the small corps chance to grief the larger entities in game. This says everything I was going to.
10 bucks says that now afk cloakers are going to put a real dent in cfc income it will be nerfed in less then 6 months. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
June Ting
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:39:00 -
[196] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:When the siphon is dead does our api go back to being useful, or is there going to be ghost minerals in there forever? How about just removing the record of what moon minerals are in the POS silos entirely from the API to avoid this problem? It's far less complicated and forces people to actually pay attention to their POSes instead of running 100+ of them and having an API tool ping them to tell them what to fuel/plat next. I fight for the freedom of my people. |
Vatek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:40:00 -
[197] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:IrJosy wrote: It's the opposite actually.
Jabber leak:
(11:16:23 AM) aryth: this isn't going to crush us. it will crush everyone who doesn't rent (11:16:31 AM) aryth: which means everyone will rent. which means everyone will donut up (11:16:34 AM) aryth: which kills eve
This mechanic is the single greatest pro-blue donut mechanic.
not sure why this will increase renters? will you give a discount to renters who activly monitor your poses in a constilation? like defend out poses from shyphon and you get to rent for 50% discount?
Renters will pay us x amount of isk per month to mine specific R64 moons in their rented space, they are then responsible for dealing with siphons on their towers. If they end up losing money because their moons are being siphoned heavily, that's their problem.
June Ting wrote:Weaselior wrote:When the siphon is dead does our api go back to being useful, or is there going to be ghost minerals in there forever? How about just removing the record of what moon minerals are in the POS silos entirely from the API to avoid this problem? It's far less complicated and forces people to actually pay attention to their POSes instead of running 100+ of them and having an API tool ping them to tell them what to fuel/plat next.
Hell yeah let's make POS management even shittier! That won't cause null blocs to increasingly turn to renters for income at all! |
Darius Caliente
Sanguinis Ablutione Angeli Mortis
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:40:00 -
[198] - Quote
CCP Paradox wrote:The Warfish wrote:Will destroyed Siphons result in a Structure Killmail, a la POS Modules?
If not, it should. Yes, Kill Reports will be generated including the information on what was dropped/destroyed.
Doesn't necessarily belong in this forum but any chance this means that Mobile Warp Disruptors are changing as well to now provide a killmail, since they are another form of deployable?
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1360
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:41:00 -
[199] - Quote
IrJosy wrote:If goons siphon all of your moon income. How do you pay for your alliance? With renters!
well yes it seems this will shift the paragim from passive income to active... which i like... more targets is a good thing...
like 2006 all over again before jump frighters. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:43:00 -
[200] - Quote
This actually hurts small operations way worse.
1. Find 1 man reaction/moon mining corp. 2. Find out his schedule, go to sleep, when he wakes up. 3. Wait for him to sleep. 4. You now have a timer to drop, and rescoop when it's done.
Reality, this hurts the small guy way more on an individual level. Because it's without risk if you know the guy's schedule. And while he's sitting in pos, waiting for someone to drop a siphon, he's not really playing eve, is he? |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5260
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:43:00 -
[201] - Quote
June Ting wrote:Weaselior wrote:When the siphon is dead does our api go back to being useful, or is there going to be ghost minerals in there forever? How about just removing the record of what moon minerals are in the POS silos entirely from the API to avoid this problem? It's far less complicated and forces people to actually pay attention to their POSes instead of running 100+ of them and having an API tool ping them to tell them what to fuel/plat next. That's a stupid idea that creates more busywork for no reason whatsoever. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:43:00 -
[202] - Quote
I feel like multiple siphons per moon is probably completely unnecessary, internally. If you're going to allow a lowly two siphons to completely burgle a moon miner's output, you could probably save some processing time and database rows by just bumping a single siphon up to 100% theft (and corresponding waste as appropriate.) As it stands currently, there's no reason to drop any fewer than two siphons on a moon, given their cost and ease of onlining. Then, only allow one siphon per chain and you get the exact same operating behavior. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5260
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:44:00 -
[203] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:IrJosy wrote:If goons siphon all of your moon income. How do you pay for your alliance? With renters! well yes it seems this will shift the paragim from passive income to active... which i like... more targets is a good thing... like 2006 all over again before jump frighters. renters are way more passive than moons |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1360
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:44:00 -
[204] - Quote
Vatek wrote: Renters will pay us x amount of isk per month to mine specific R64 moons in their rented space, they are then responsible for dealing with siphons on their towers. If they end up losing money because their moons are being siphoned heavily, that's their problem.
so you are saying that 0.0 will have to be populated to be profitable? and this is somehow a bad thing?
i think its great...
you guys can be like the mob providing protection against actual pos attacks for a montly fee.
its a win win for everyone involved...
space gets filled people make isk and i get to kill people ratting.
dont see the problem really. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Esteban Dragonovic
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:44:00 -
[205] - Quote
Might I ask at the very least that these siphons require the deployer to hack into the POS first to begin pulling goo into it? If they fail the hack then the siphon would at least explode and provide some offset to the cheap cost of these deployables. |
June Ting
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:45:00 -
[206] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:IrJosy wrote:If goons siphon all of your moon income. How do you pay for your alliance? With renters! well yes it seems this will shift the paragim from passive income to active... which i like... more targets is a good thing... like 2006 all over again before jump frighters. I question whether this meaningfully improves target selection.
Said renters will just blap the siphons using POS guns, and since those alts won't actually be in PVP ships but will just be pos gunning in noobships directly from inside their forcefields...
This certainly improves the harassment potential of small gangs, for sure. But it doesn't directly increase the likelihood of small fleet combat since almost nobody will bring an actual fleet of pvp ships to contest an objective of that type. I fight for the freedom of my people. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1335
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:45:00 -
[207] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:IrJosy wrote:If goons siphon all of your moon income. How do you pay for your alliance? With renters! well yes it seems this will shift the paragim from passive income to active... which i like... more targets is a good thing... like 2006 all over again before jump frighters. No, it's a shift from income based on PvP to income based on grinding and wasting time. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1360
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:45:00 -
[208] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:MeBiatch wrote:IrJosy wrote:If goons siphon all of your moon income. How do you pay for your alliance? With renters! well yes it seems this will shift the paragim from passive income to active... which i like... more targets is a good thing... like 2006 all over again before jump frighters. renters are way more passive than moons
i have shot poses and shot renters...
renters are more active and provide good tears in local. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1361
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:46:00 -
[209] - Quote
June Ting wrote:MeBiatch wrote:IrJosy wrote:If goons siphon all of your moon income. How do you pay for your alliance? With renters! well yes it seems this will shift the paragim from passive income to active... which i like... more targets is a good thing... like 2006 all over again before jump frighters. I question whether this meaningfully improves target selection. Said renters will just blap the siphons using POS guns, and since those alts won't actually be in PVP ships but will just be pos gunning in noobships directly from inside their forcefields... This certainly improves the harassment potential of small gangs, for sure. But it doesn't directly increase the likelihood of small fleet combat since almost nobody will bring an actual fleet of pvp ships to contest an objective of that type.
they should fix that... you should not be able to man a pos gun inside of the shield. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Razzishi
Trash Reclamation Experts
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:47:00 -
[210] - Quote
Just make sure every mining POS has a complex reactor running. It will make logistics even worse, but I think that's part of the point. Right now top end moons are so profitable that you don't need to worry about wasting CPU on potential reactions when mining them. I do have first-hand knowledge of POS and moon-mining management, and think it would be sorta ok if we're all forced to plan a full production line and do more hauling to avoid being syphoned.
Presumably the devices that can siphon advanced materials will be much more expensive and require fuel to operate. |
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1361
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:47:00 -
[211] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:MeBiatch wrote:IrJosy wrote:If goons siphon all of your moon income. How do you pay for your alliance? With renters! well yes it seems this will shift the paragim from passive income to active... which i like... more targets is a good thing... like 2006 all over again before jump frighters. No, it's a shift from income based on PvP to income based on grinding and wasting time.
i see it as as a shift to more pvp... for small gangs and roaming gangs...
unless you see shooting renters as grinding? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4753
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:48:00 -
[212] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote: With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?
Oh... right...
Yes. We do. Those thousands of people are never on grid with a mining pos because they have no reason to be. That's my point. Those thousands of people, using our space, do not actually provide any meaningful advantage over an alt left logged out in the tower. I guess it's a good thing that they are so easy to detect and destroy by anybody that happens to be in system. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
70
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:48:00 -
[213] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Vatek wrote: Renters will pay us x amount of isk per month to mine specific R64 moons in their rented space, they are then responsible for dealing with siphons on their towers. If they end up losing money because their moons are being siphoned heavily, that's their problem.
so you are saying that 0.0 will have to be populated to be profitable? and this is somehow a bad thing? i think its great... you guys can be like the mob providing protection against actual pos attacks for a montly fee. its a win win for everyone involved... space gets filled people make isk and i get to kill people ratting. dont see the problem really.
How many New York Times articles have brought new players to the game with the headline: "Eve Online: An online spaceship game where you pay space protection money to live in a world completely devoid of conflict" ? |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1335
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:50:00 -
[214] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:i see it as as a shift to more pvp... for small gangs and roaming gangs...
unless you see shooting renters as grinding?
...explain which part of the process is meaningful PvP?
POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. Cloaky hauler enters system, drops siphon, cloaks. POS alt logs in, sees siphon, blaps it with POS guns, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
639
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:51:00 -
[215] - Quote
I know how to fix the problems with siphons as proposed. But, it's gonna take a little game design work. Let's focus on this line from the dev blog:
Quote: Finally, it allows us to strengthen asynchronous gameplay, where players can be interacting without having to necessarily be at the same place at the same time.
CCP wants async gameplay. Ok, great. The problem is that their mechanic for it is essentially "most recent player to act wins". That leads to all the problems discussed in thread. How do you have good async gameplay without forcing ingame confrontation at a reinforcement timer (not async), or not being "most recent player to act wins"?
A minigame. Look at games like Civ4/5 pitboss multiplayer, or many other turn-based games. Turn-based games are inherently async. If siphons had a "minigame" element -- perhaps vaguely similar to the hacking minigame -- they could have async gameplay. This minigame could be a competitive 2-player game. The winner gets to somehow affect siphon goo-stealing-rate or health as he desires. Dropping a siphon initiates the minigame via notification to each player. Each player gets 1 turn per X hours, and if you skip your turn you forfeit it. You could even introduce ingame skills to benefit players in the minigame.
This solves all sorts of problems. AFK cloaker -- who cares? They gotta play the minigame. Drive-by-inty-griefer who doesn't want to pick up goo anyway? He has to play the minigame to actually hurt your goo.
If you want async gameplay, create an async mechanic for interaction. Boom. Siphons serve their purpose and are also FUN gameplay. @pmchem on twitter || GARPA || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Angry Mustache
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
68
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:54:00 -
[216] - Quote
In the meanwhile, can we drop something outside of a station that adds an additional 60% to all market taxes and transfers those taxes to the owner of the structure?
And another similar object that takes 60 of the products of a manufacturing job and places it inside your hanger.
And make them cost 10 million each.
do those ideas sound dumb? This is just as dumb. http://themittani.com -á- your one stop site for all News Eve Related |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:55:00 -
[217] - Quote
Dagda Morr wrote:Something that has been missed - the best organised large groups in 0.0 are the very groups that are able to mass spam regions on the hour with these. This isn't a tool to help the small guy take a poke at the big guys - it's not going to generate content, it's just going to make the dullest thing in eve even duller.....
You are wrong. Small entities will have now a chance to get some moon goo, by stealing it. As it is now, small entities can't have any goo at all. BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
Hank Magnusson
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:56:00 -
[218] - Quote
So it's strange that the siphon is 20m^3, and then can hold large quantities.
Maybe, rather than instant deployment, it should take time to construct/deploy siphon units: anywhere from 30 seconds to 10 minutes.
If people are around or manning the guns, cloaky ships wouldn't be able to deploy. |
Sven Viko VIkolander
Stay Frosty.
89
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:56:00 -
[219] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:MeBiatch wrote:this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.
the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy. Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you.
The argument that it really isn't in my/your interest to steal moon goo because "T2 Prices will go up, and you don't want that, do you?" sounds a lot like what high sec miners have said when they've become easier to gank with various changes--prices will go up, they'll go up!!11
Sadly, no rise in T2 prices can off-set the precious, precious value of the tears of null-bears.
______
The one change I suggest (perhaps for future Siphons) is that the siphon cycle time be adjustable and the amount siphoned increase with the siphon cycle time. That way, having a siphon out for longer periods of time generates more isk ultimately, but puts the siphon at a much greater risk |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1104
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:57:00 -
[220] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:MeBiatch wrote:i see it as as a shift to more pvp... for small gangs and roaming gangs...
unless you see shooting renters as grinding? ...explain which part of the process is meaningful PvP? POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. Cloaky hauler enters system, drops siphon, cloaks. POS alt logs in, sees siphon, blaps it with POS guns, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off.
you forgot
POS alt flys to siphon, picks up stuff and flys back to POS
he at least has to leave the POS shields, one could call this a PVP opportunity We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
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Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:58:00 -
[221] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote: Just lol...
Ohhhh...My first 10 urns are capped. Need more for these Goons tears.
I believe this post, and the Marlona posts, make my point quite well. There's no solid arguments about why these are well-balanced being presented. The sole argument being presented is the same one we always see when a goon is correctly pointing out something that's unbalanced: some nitwit saying, well, the above. You saw it with blap titans, for example.
I posted quite few reasons. Just read around, You will find then :DD BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
3067
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:58:00 -
[222] - Quote
I predict a LOT of drag bubbles and empty noob ships left at the predicted points of impact to decloak cloak siphon dropper ships.
*goes to jita to corner the market on anchorable bubbles* |
Mildew Wolf
118
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:59:00 -
[223] - Quote
Grrr griefers |
Decoval Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:59:00 -
[224] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:I think the price is right, but the size is too small. Not every moon in the game is a R32 or R64.
They should be at least 120M3 so the soon to be uncatchable interceptors can't carry 6 or more in their holds.
if you don't want to check 1000 posses, than don't and find out if they're siphones when you empty them....
I like the goon posing CTA though
and 113 goons like you |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:01:00 -
[225] - Quote
xttz wrote:It should be a bit of a red flag when CCP come up with the cheapest griefing tool in EVE for years, and GoonSwarm are the ones saying "hang on that's a bit much".
What exactly do you lot think this is going to do to the Tech 2 market when virtually no one is getting moon materials without interruption? We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?
The Tech 2 materials market has just been handed back to big alliances. We're going to grief the **** out of everyone if this remains unchanged, and make bank while doing so.
Smaller alliances and corps don't own moons. Some exception here and there BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
Decoval Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:01:00 -
[226] - Quote
elaborated opinions stated above - i for one congratulate ccp for this bold desicion to give some death taste to the afk population of eve =) |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1364
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:01:00 -
[227] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:MeBiatch wrote:i see it as as a shift to more pvp... for small gangs and roaming gangs...
unless you see shooting renters as grinding? ...explain which part of the process is meaningful PvP? POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. Cloaky hauler enters system, drops siphon, cloaks. POS alt logs in, sees siphon, blaps it with POS guns, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. you forgot POS alt flys to siphon, picks up stuff and flys back to POS he at least has to leave the POS shields, one could call this a PVP opportunity
how many poses do you have 100's? you are litterally going to spend every day doing this?
you will burn out pretty darn fast... why not do what goons are going to do and shift the defence to local renters?
seems much more managable...
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1263
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:02:00 -
[228] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:This actually hurts small operations way worse.
1. Find 1 man reaction/moon mining corp. 2. Find out his schedule, go to sleep, when he wakes up. 3. Wait for him to sleep. 4. You now have a timer to drop, and rescoop when it's done.
Reality, this hurts the small guy way more on an individual level. Because it's without risk if you know the guy's schedule. And while he's sitting in pos, waiting for someone to drop a siphon, he's not really playing eve, is he? You are in a small corp so you'd know all about it. Nyan |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:03:00 -
[229] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:Smaller alliances and corps don't own moons. Some exception here and there
A lot of smaller alliances and corps do run reactions though. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4753
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:03:00 -
[230] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:This actually hurts small operations way worse.
1. Find 1 man reaction/moon mining corp. 2. Find out his schedule, go to sleep, when he wakes up. 3. Wait for him to sleep. 4. You now have a timer to drop, and rescoop when it's done.
Reality, this hurts the small guy way more on an individual level. Because it's without risk if you know the guy's schedule. And while he's sitting in pos, waiting for someone to drop a siphon, he's not really playing eve, is he? You actually think there are a lot of small 1man corps mining expensive moons in Null?
Now in low sec you'll see more of them, but they'll be doing alchemy... which at least currently is not affected. In fact, they should greatly benefit. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
996
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:04:00 -
[231] - Quote
I'm not sure i get the argument that this change is mistimed because the incentives don't exist for alliances to live in a smaller space. Surely this mechanic makes it more difficult to spread out everywhere (and fund it with moon goo), and thus constitutes an incentive to live in a smaller space? |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5261
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:05:00 -
[232] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: how many poses do you have 100's? you are litterally going to spend every day doing this?
you will burn out pretty darn fast... why not do what goons are going to do and shift the defence to local renters?
seems much more managable...
still not any sort of pvp, it's "notice structure, pop structure" |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:06:00 -
[233] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Kismeteer wrote:This actually hurts small operations way worse.
1. Find 1 man reaction/moon mining corp. 2. Find out his schedule, go to sleep, when he wakes up. 3. Wait for him to sleep. 4. You now have a timer to drop, and rescoop when it's done.
Reality, this hurts the small guy way more on an individual level. Because it's without risk if you know the guy's schedule. And while he's sitting in pos, waiting for someone to drop a siphon, he's not really playing eve, is he? You actually think there are a lot of small 1man corps mining expensive moons in Null? Now in low sec you'll see more of them, but they'll be doing alchemy... which at least currently is not affected. In fact, they should greatly benefit.
Who said anything about Null? Sure, it can be null. It can be [strike]high[/strike] low sec too, if you're dead-ending any simple reaction.
e: meant to say low sec, oops. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1263
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:06:00 -
[234] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:MeBiatch wrote:i see it as as a shift to more pvp... for small gangs and roaming gangs...
unless you see shooting renters as grinding? ...explain which part of the process is meaningful PvP? POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off.Cloaky hauler enters system, drops siphon, cloaks. POS alt logs in, sees siphon, blaps it with POS guns, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. POS alt logs in, sees nothing, logs off. I can see your problem. Nyan |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4753
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:06:00 -
[235] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:MeBiatch wrote:IrJosy wrote:If goons siphon all of your moon income. How do you pay for your alliance? With renters! well yes it seems this will shift the paragim from passive income to active... which i like... more targets is a good thing... like 2006 all over again before jump frighters. No, it's a shift from income based on PvP to income based on grinding and wasting time. You forget, to use a siphon you'll be trying to run a blockade runner into the area on a daily basis. So yes, there will be some PVP involved. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1366
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:07:00 -
[236] - Quote
IrJosy wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Vatek wrote: Renters will pay us x amount of isk per month to mine specific R64 moons in their rented space, they are then responsible for dealing with siphons on their towers. If they end up losing money because their moons are being siphoned heavily, that's their problem.
so you are saying that 0.0 will have to be populated to be profitable? and this is somehow a bad thing? i think its great... you guys can be like the mob providing protection against actual pos attacks for a montly fee. its a win win for everyone involved... space gets filled people make isk and i get to kill people ratting. dont see the problem really. How many New York Times articles have brought new players to the game with the headline: "Eve Online: An online spaceship game where you pay space protection money to live in a world completely devoid of conflict" ?
how will this be devoid of conflict? from my perspective it will increase the conflics. i wonder what would happen if you found out that one of your allies are the ones who are using thier alts to steel your moon mins... that could lead to some epic drama and that is where conflict drivers come from... human interaction.
granted that sov needs to be reworked much like they did with FW...
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Vatek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:07:00 -
[237] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Kismeteer wrote:This actually hurts small operations way worse.
1. Find 1 man reaction/moon mining corp. 2. Find out his schedule, go to sleep, when he wakes up. 3. Wait for him to sleep. 4. You now have a timer to drop, and rescoop when it's done.
Reality, this hurts the small guy way more on an individual level. Because it's without risk if you know the guy's schedule. And while he's sitting in pos, waiting for someone to drop a siphon, he's not really playing eve, is he? You actually think there are a lot of small 1man corps mining expensive moons in Null? Now in low sec you'll see more of them, but they'll be doing alchemy... which at least currently is not affected. In fact, they should greatly benefit. Who said anything about Null? Sure, it can be null. It can be high sec too, if you're dead-ending any simple reaction.
You cannot run reactions in highsec. |
Gardaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:08:00 -
[238] - Quote
Excellent work CCP, the API fudge is clever and obviously a must for this feature.
Also the troll level towards entities holding huge numbers of goo towers in largely uninhabited space is lovely |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
997
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:08:00 -
[239] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:MeBiatch wrote: how many poses do you have 100's? you are litterally going to spend every day doing this?
you will burn out pretty darn fast... why not do what goons are going to do and shift the defence to local renters?
seems much more managable...
still not any sort of pvp, it's "notice structure, pop structure"
With regards to AFK cloaking and dumping these: keep in mind that the people dumping these are spending considerable time (and some risk, if they're using something like a BR to do this and run into a giant camp) to suck up the moon goo. I'm no doctor but that may not be worth the time.
I think the intention is that roaming gangs can dump them and the sov holders have an incentive to come out and stop them.
Quote:Nope. What it means is, we spread out more (to counteract the moongoo income loss) and then rent it out as that's the only other source of alliance income.
So you're telling me that the only reason Goons haven't spread out more already is...What? You guys just decided you didn't want that space anyway?
Furthermore, I'm sure CCP would see more rented space and less directly owned by large alliances as a plus. They did state their intention with Dominion was more people living out of nullsec. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
454
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:08:00 -
[240] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Gilbaron wrote:Alright:
this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.
instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:
i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.
hahaha look at these goon tears so delicio hey wait
Mynna just gtffo from CSM u biased piece.... BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
|
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:08:00 -
[241] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:You are in a small corp so you'd know all about it.
We know all about griefing small corporations. Your 33 man corp operate from 1400 to 2100, exclusively. Lots of time if we find one of your moons doing reactions. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1366
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:09:00 -
[242] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:MeBiatch wrote: how many poses do you have 100's? you are litterally going to spend every day doing this?
you will burn out pretty darn fast... why not do what goons are going to do and shift the defence to local renters?
seems much more managable...
still not any sort of pvp, it's "notice structure, pop structure"
if you have renters in each contilation they will spend the majority of said time you know doing what null bears do and that is rat.
more people = more targets = more regular pvp...
though our definition of pvp is different does pvp to you means only giant sov blob grinds? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5262
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:09:00 -
[243] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: granted that sov needs to be reworked much like they did with FW...
this is our basic point. this would be a neat feature with a sov rework. but they're not going to actually do that. they're going to push it off until SOON(tm) along with the use for sov4 and sov5, all of the iterations on ihubs that would supposedly come, the last t3 subsystem, the 'farms and fields', the pos revamp, and anything else that might actually improve 0.0 |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1296
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:10:00 -
[244] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:IrJosy wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Vatek wrote: Renters will pay us x amount of isk per month to mine specific R64 moons in their rented space, they are then responsible for dealing with siphons on their towers. If they end up losing money because their moons are being siphoned heavily, that's their problem.
so you are saying that 0.0 will have to be populated to be profitable? and this is somehow a bad thing? i think its great... you guys can be like the mob providing protection against actual pos attacks for a montly fee. its a win win for everyone involved... space gets filled people make isk and i get to kill people ratting. dont see the problem really. How many New York Times articles have brought new players to the game with the headline: "Eve Online: An online spaceship game where you pay space protection money to live in a world completely devoid of conflict" ? how will this be devoid of conflict? from my perspective it will increase the conflics. i wonder what would happen if you found out that one of your allies are the ones who are using thier alts to steel your moon mins... that could lead to some epic drama and that is where conflict drivers come from... human interaction. granted that sov needs to be reworked much like they did with FW...
Except not. This is just AWOXing in another form and has been a drama free mechanic in null for years now. Boot, reimburse, move on.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
452
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:11:00 -
[245] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:if you have renters in each contilation they will spend the majority of said time you know doing what null bears do and that is rat.
more people = more targets = more regular pvp...
though our definition of pvp is different does pvp to you means only giant sov blob grinds?
Yeah, shooting ratters, quality pvp there. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5262
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:11:00 -
[246] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: if you have renters in each contilation they will spend the majority of said time you know doing what null bears do and that is rat.
more people = more targets = more regular pvp...
though our definition of pvp is different does pvp to you means only giant sov blob grinds?
a game where the highest form of combat is ganking a renter every so often is a boring, stagnated game
don't get me wrong the loss of low-level ganking has been a problem but renting is a ****** way to solve it because it makes actual high-level combat die off |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1335
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:15:00 -
[247] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:I think the intention is that roaming gangs can dump them and the sov holders have an incentive to come out and stop them. Not really. Due to the rate these work, you need to wait several hours for any results. This only encourages dropping siphons, cloaking AFK in the system, playing a better game for a few hours, and returning to scoop the loot. Since the siphons fit in literally anything and don't require any level of protection or setup time, there is no need to have a gang with you to set them up. |
Mehashi 'Kho
Idiot with a gun
84
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:19:00 -
[248] - Quote
Sounds great! I look forward to trying these out. Will be awesome to finally have a way as a smaller entity to cause damage to a larger one that doesn't take efforts to monitor it's assets.
The flood of whiny pos owners too used to afk income makes it even better.
The suggestions of having to sit at a tower for 23 hours are hilarious, but a false dichotomy between afk or full attendance. If you have members using your space there will be little impact. Neutrals (I hope) would be reported in your moon systems, maybe once every few hours someone runs a dscan, tough work I know, and the idea that 2 minutes to destroy the syphon and secure your assets is too much work is pathetic.
Can't wait for these to roll out on tq. I am only hoping that just because a very large entity whines a lot you don't go back on your vision of guerilla warfare going forward. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
457
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:21:00 -
[249] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:Smaller alliances and corps don't own moons. Some exception here and there A lot of smaller alliances and corps do run reactions though.
Yeah Null alliances alts. All others still fit in the exception. BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
Farrell Jay
Hoover Inc. Black Legion.
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:22:00 -
[250] - Quote
These would have been really useful when moon mining was the primary source of income for a large portion of 0.0 alliances, it seems a little strange that this would be introduced now at a time when rental income far outweighs any profit that can be made from moons. Unless ccp introduces a module that siphons rental income (that would be awesome btw) I don't think this concept will have a major impact in the foreseeable future. |
|
Fix Lag
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
572
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:22:00 -
[251] - Quote
HEY CCP TOTAL DISCLAIMER HERE
WE'RE GOING TO ABUSE THIS FOR ABSURD TRILLIONS IN PROFITS
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
DON'T BE ALL LIKE "WELL THAT'S TOO MUCH MONEY SO YOU HAVE TO GIVE IT BACK" LIKE YOU DID WITH FOREX
YOU
HAVE
BEEN
WARNED |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
27
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:23:00 -
[252] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:This actually hurts small operations way worse.
1. Find 1 man reaction/moon mining corp. 2. Find out his schedule, go to sleep, when he wakes up. 3. Wait for him to sleep. 4. You now have a timer to drop, and rescoop when it's done.
Reality, this hurts the small guy way more on an individual level. Because it's without risk if you know the guy's schedule. And while he's sitting in pos, waiting for someone to drop a siphon, he's not really playing eve, is he?
Since when GSF care for one man corp operation? Is that has anything to do with the fact half of nullsec is currently owned by CFC? Coincidence. |
Fix Lag
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
572
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:23:00 -
[253] - Quote
You can't say we didn't try. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1367
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:24:00 -
[254] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:MeBiatch wrote:if you have renters in each contilation they will spend the majority of said time you know doing what null bears do and that is rat.
more people = more targets = more regular pvp...
though our definition of pvp is different does pvp to you means only giant sov blob grinds? Yeah, shooting ratters, quality pvp there.
It is for me... kill enough of them and they start forming defense fleets. .. so there is potential for increased small scale pvp... plus I thought goons loved killing miners and frieghters snd such so is this not right up your alley?
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Brienna Torsti
CAS Technologies and Logistics Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:25:00 -
[255] - Quote
I'm going to have so much fun spamming these around regions.
It's going to be great. Anchor them, forget about them, annoy someone somewhere who's doing a 1 man operation. Minimum effort griefing.
But please, CCP. The API is utterly ****** as it is... Fix it before breaking it on purpose. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
461
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:25:00 -
[256] - Quote
- Big nullsec alliances crying...check - Small entities joying...check
Feature is good to go :D BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1104
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:25:00 -
[257] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote: I think the intention is that roaming gangs can dump them and the sov holders have an incentive to come out and stop them.
they don't need any kind of protection to be set up and there is no fixed time where they can be emptied
We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Gekkoh
Preferred Nomenclature AB Care Factor
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:28:00 -
[258] - Quote
mynnna wrote:This isn't a bad mechanic, it's just mistimed. The tools and and incentives to want to willingly live in a smaller footprint, don't exist, and so mechanics and meta dictate that to not spread as far as you are able is to allow your enemy to do it instead. But instead of fixing that, creating those tools and incentives, and then introducing them at the same time as things like this, CCP is just hauling back and aiming a big kick in the balls at anyone playing by the current rules.
Spouting off that the solution is to just do that anyway is foolish and naive.
Oh, now that's interesting.
It seems that you're hinting at unannounced CCP plans to change null so that we end up with smaller, more concentrated entities, while incentivizing more players to come to null?
That would be a good thing.
A very good thing.
If that's so, I wish they'd expand on those plans :-)
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5266
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:29:00 -
[259] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote: Since when GSF care for one man corp operation? Is that has anything to do with the fact half of nullsec is currently owned by CFC? Coincidence.
It does. We're basically out of people to kill, and 0.0 is getting fairly stagnant and boring. |
ONE-MAN WOLF-PACK
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:30:00 -
[260] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:would be awesome if it could be placed outside point/web range of pos'es, perhaps later versions can be placed further away? (placed so it's still within turret range, but in range where one can go scoop, and warp, even if getting shot a little by the pos)
its almost like they want people to work together to rob poses. aka fun |
|
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
454
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:30:00 -
[261] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:they don't need any kind of protection to be set up and there is no fixed time where they can be emptied
Sounds like a great way to get lots of pvp. Drop in a rookie ship that costs nothing, wait 20 hours, come back with a hauler and maybe scoop a full load of material! yay pvp! |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5266
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:30:00 -
[262] - Quote
Gekkoh wrote: Oh, now that's interesting.
It seems that you're hinting at unannounced CCP plans to change null so that we end up with smaller, more concentrated entities, while incentivizing more players to come to null?
That would be a good thing.
A very good thing.
If that's so, I wish they'd expand on those plans :-)
CCP has had "plans" for this for the better part of a decade. It's follow-through they need. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1385
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:33:00 -
[263] - Quote
Thieves tapping into oil pipelines need to worry about two things:
A cataclysmic 'oops.' Defeating the leak detection software.
This could be alot more interesting. |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
29
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:33:00 -
[264] - Quote
When you just have a couple of POS to manage, it won't be complicated to get rid off these syphons. The worse that will happen is that you loose a couple of hour of production. And for a killmail, rest assured that you will have an horde of people in lowsec that will be ready to shoot them even if it's not their towers.
What it will impact, is if you have a loadfull of POS. That one that is in a corner of you space nobody never visit, will maybe have half a dozen siphons when you will go there to fuel it/haul back your goo. And that's the whole point of it. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
677
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:33:00 -
[265] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote:You are in a small corp so you'd know all about it. We know all about griefing small corporations. Your 33 man corp operate from 1400 to 2100, exclusively. Lots of time if we find one of your moons doing reactions. Switching from spin ("This isn't going to bother us at all!") to scare tactics ("We know where you sleep")! I like it! But you have to get back on message that this is no big deal for large null alliances, it'll make things cost more, blah blah. You don't want to fall behind on your spin points for the day. I see many members of the Goon Economic Warefare Cabal posting here today trying to deliver that message, so hopefully we'll all buy it.
But that leads me to another question: why should any of us believe that you're delivering honest feedback? You've publicly expressed that you're members of the Economic Warfare Goon committee, so since that's your purpose anyway, where do you think your credibility comes from? Authoritarian speaking? Threats?
Again, the large backlash from the larger null groups here shows that CCP is on the right track, promoting tactics smaller corps can use to fight back against groups they'd be way outmanned in a "normal" fight. What's the icing on the cake is that some of the large null groups are delivering honest feedback ("This will suck for us having to monitor our large POS empires") and some are trying so hard to spin that it won't be a big deal at all ("This won't affect us much at all...").
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1265
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:34:00 -
[266] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote: Since when GSF care for one man corp operation? Is that has anything to do with the fact half of nullsec is currently owned by CFC? Coincidence.
It does. We're basically out of people to kill, and 0.0 is getting fairly stagnant and boring. Good news everyone, CCP has just implemented one such feature! Nyan |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5267
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:38:00 -
[267] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote: Good news everyone, CCP has just implemented one such feature!
While I'm not sure why I would expect the person who thought anom and sig scanning uncovered things like this siphon would grasp gameplay mechanic issues, this will not lead to more small entities in 0.0. Because we'll squash them and then rent their space back to them. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1368
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:40:00 -
[268] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:- Big nullsec alliances crying...check - Small entities joying...check
Feature is good to go :D
as good as a litmus test for a feature if i ever heard of one. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1267
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:41:00 -
[269] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote: Good news everyone, CCP has just implemented one such feature!
While I'm not sure why I would expect the person who thought anom and sig scanning uncovered things like this siphon would grasp gameplay mechanic issues, this will not lead to more small entities in 0.0. Because we'll squash them and then rent their space back to them. Yes, I know it would be difficult for someone like you to understand how people who do sig scanning would be able to detect siphoning structures. Nyan |
Anharat
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:42:00 -
[270] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Kismeteer wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote:You are in a small corp so you'd know all about it. We know all about griefing small corporations. Your 33 man corp operate from 1400 to 2100, exclusively. Lots of time if we find one of your moons doing reactions. Switching from spin ("This isn't going to bother us at all!") to scare tactics ("We know where you sleep")! I like it! But you have to get back on message that this is no big deal for large null alliances, it'll make things cost more, blah blah. You don't want to fall behind on your spin points for the day. I see many members of the Goon Economic Warefare Cabal posting here today trying to deliver that message, so hopefully we'll all buy it. But that leads me to another question: why should any of us believe that you're delivering honest feedback? You've publicly expressed that you're members of the Economic Warfare Goon committee, so since that's your purpose anyway, where do you think your credibility comes from? Authoritarian speaking? Threats? Again, the large backlash from the larger null groups here shows that CCP is on the right track, promoting tactics smaller corps can use to fight back against groups they'd be way outmanned in a "normal" fight. What's the icing on the cake is that some of the large null groups are delivering honest feedback ("This will suck for us having to monitor our large POS empires") and some are trying so hard to spin that it won't be a big deal at all ("This won't affect us much at all..."). Except that that is not the feedback. The feedback is : we would just need to hand our moons to renters and make them pay for it and in turn use the siphon to grief other renters / people that didn't notice the meta change yet.
|
|
Mister McDerp
University of Caille Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:45:00 -
[271] - Quote
Brienna Torsti wrote:I'm going to have so much fun spamming these around regions.
It's going to be great. Anchor them, forget about them, annoy someone somewhere who's doing a 1 man operation. Minimum effort griefing.
But please, CCP. The API is utterly ****** as it is... Fix it before breaking it on purpose.
First that. Screwing with the API like that is... a bad direction to take.
And second, also that. it WILL be used as a griefing tool on the small guys trying to do reactions and nothing else. Enjoy your even emptier lowsec.
Marlona Sky wrote:Loving all these afk pos owner tears in this thread. God forbid you actually need to spend more than 3 minutes a week fueling and grabbing goo right? You have no idea how much of a pain running multiple reaction posses already is, do you? Like literally: Most People bragging about how they're doing PI make more money with less effort, less risk. The only thing they need is more characters. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5267
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:45:00 -
[272] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote: But that leads me to another question: why should any of us believe that you're delivering honest feedback? You've publicly expressed that you're members of the Economic Warfare Goon committee, so since that's your purpose anyway, where do you think your credibility comes from? Authoritarian speaking? Threats?
Our credibility comes from our long unbroken streak of being right, every time. |
Vatek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:46:00 -
[273] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Weaselior wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote: Good news everyone, CCP has just implemented one such feature!
While I'm not sure why I would expect the person who thought anom and sig scanning uncovered things like this siphon would grasp gameplay mechanic issues, this will not lead to more small entities in 0.0. Because we'll squash them and then rent their space back to them. Yes, I know it would be difficult for someone like you to understand how people who do sig scanning would be able to detect siphoning structures.
A plex runner scanning for signatures isn't even going to have structures on his filter and is highly unlikely to care that there is a siphon on some random moon. |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
454
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:48:00 -
[274] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:But that leads me to another question: why should any of us believe that you're delivering honest feedback? You've publicly expressed that you're members of the Economic Warfare Goon committee, so since that's your purpose anyway, where do you think your credibility comes from? Authoritarian speaking? Threats?
I'm not a member of whatever committee you think I'm a part of, and who said this was just spinning? I'm speaking for myself. I don't help people in the Linux subforum to recruit scam people or push an agenda beyond 'Use Linux', for instance. And any credibility I have is based on my ideas, generally.
There are so many broken mechanics in eve already. Why introduce another one that is even more broken? The warp speed change I think is pretty awesome, and might kill null sec ratting as a whole, but it should be fun at least. But what else is in this expansion?
I'm the one who thinks that moon goo should just go to PI anyway, **** all POS's.
Want to make it easier for small entities to get into null sec? Fix sov warfare and make logistics easy for people. Want to make it possible for a group to 'fit' in smaller space? Fix null sec. Want to fix 'free money' from moons? Get rid of moons. Want to fix risk/reward? Address level 4 missions rewards. Want to make POS's better? Revamp them already, that was promised years ago. Players cooped your broken system and explioted it? Give them tools to do it correctly. We've had 'coalitions' from the beginning of eve, but zero help from CCP actually implementing treaties or anything like that.
All of these things could be what CCP is working on. Instead, they are doing additions like this. Every time we've heard some high sec player say 'Oh this will fix the blue donut!', like the moon rebalancing, has just made it worse. CCP has continually RAISED the bar to enter 0.0, not lowered it. It is very expensive, time and effort and isk wise, to put up even a single pos, not to mention take a system and/or station.
So address the fundamental problem rather than skirting it for literally years, saying 'we'll do tweaks' when these tweaks never happen. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:51:00 -
[275] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Kahega Amielden wrote: I think the intention is that roaming gangs can dump them and the sov holders have an incentive to come out and stop them.
they don't need any kind of protection to be set up and there is no fixed time where they can be emptied
Well, that's great, because fixed timers don't generate small gang pvp. People in space in pvp ships do.
If you're trying defend against these, you're going to want to preempt raiders, not react to them. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1368
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:53:00 -
[276] - Quote
so anyone know if the market for pos guns has gone up?
perhaps its time for me to sell of those true sansha small beam platforms now...
correct me if i am wrong but most 0.0 poses are not death stars and the majority dont even have guns on them for pos mining...
they from what i remember use the pg/cpu for resists mods and moon mining equipment.
so this could create a rush to get guns on all the poses... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
454
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:54:00 -
[277] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:so anyone know if the market for pos guns has gone up?
You have plenty of PG to fit guns on pos's, actually. We just normally don't put them up because why give something for people to shoot at? |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5272
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:55:00 -
[278] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: correct me if i am wrong but most 0.0 poses are not death stars and the majority dont even have guns on them for pos mining...
correct, because one of the many, many things that need fixing is that pos guns are garbage and have needed rebalancing for years |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1939
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:57:00 -
[279] - Quote
Gekkoh wrote:mynnna wrote:This isn't a bad mechanic, it's just mistimed. The tools and and incentives to want to willingly live in a smaller footprint, don't exist, and so mechanics and meta dictate that to not spread as far as you are able is to allow your enemy to do it instead. But instead of fixing that, creating those tools and incentives, and then introducing them at the same time as things like this, CCP is just hauling back and aiming a big kick in the balls at anyone playing by the current rules.
Spouting off that the solution is to just do that anyway is foolish and naive. Oh, now that's interesting. It seems that you're hinting at unannounced CCP plans to change null so that we end up with smaller, more concentrated entities, while incentivizing more players to come to null? That would be a good thing. A very good thing. If that's so, I wish they'd expand on those plans :-)
I am hinting at nothing, merely saying that if such plans existed, that would be the appropriate time to introduce these. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
147
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:58:00 -
[280] - Quote
DevBlog wrote:It also aligns itself well with our general intent to give players more ways to affect each otherGÇÖs income than just through brute force. Make a new player training session about basic math and how it relates to blueprints and manufacturing. |
|
Azrael Dinn
The 20th Legion Mildly Sober
176
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:01:00 -
[281] - Quote
so... don't you dev have better things to work on or is this part of something bigger and better cause really... where do we need this thing?
This new mobile thing seems really really useless in the grand scheme of things. Honestly... why didn't you just start to work on with the pos mechanics rather than make a small specialized thing that really does nothing special.
So please... could you tell whats behind of this or did you guys just ran out of good ideas? After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1663
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:02:00 -
[282] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:But that leads me to another question: why should any of us believe that you're delivering honest feedback? You've publicly expressed that you're members of the Economic Warfare Goon committee, so since that's your purpose anyway, where do you think your credibility comes from? Authoritarian speaking? Threats? I'm not a member of whatever committee you think I'm a part of, and who said this was just spinning? I'm speaking for myself. I don't help people in the Linux subforum to recruit scam people or push an agenda beyond 'Use Linux', for instance. And any credibility I have is based on my ideas, generally. There are so many broken mechanics in eve already. Why introduce another one that is even more broken? The warp speed change I think is pretty awesome, and might kill null sec ratting as a whole, but it should be fun at least. But what else is in this expansion? I'm the one who thinks that moon goo should just go to PI anyway, **** all POS's. Want to make it easier for small entities to get into null sec? Fix sov warfare and make logistics easy for people. Want to make it possible for a group to 'fit' in smaller space? Fix null sec. Want to fix 'free money' from moons? Get rid of moons. Want to fix risk/reward? Address level 4 missions rewards. Want to make POS's better? Revamp them already, that was promised years ago. Players cooped your broken system and explioted it? Give them tools to do it correctly. We've had 'coalitions' from the beginning of eve, but zero help from CCP actually implementing treaties or anything like that. All of these things could be what CCP is working on. Instead, they are doing additions like this. Every time we've heard some high sec player say 'Oh this will fix the blue donut!', like the moon rebalancing, has just made it worse. CCP has continually RAISED the bar to enter 0.0, not lowered it. It is very expensive, time and effort and isk wise, to put up even a single pos, not to mention take a system and/or station. So address the fundamental problem rather than skirting it for literally years, saying 'we'll do tweaks' when these tweaks never happen. there's a parable in the christian bible, where christ describes a man who builds his house on sand and a man who builds his house on stone. the house built on sand washes away in the rain, and the house on stone stands
is the siphon building on broken pos and sov mechanics? |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
71
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:03:00 -
[283] - Quote
CCP 'balancing' t2 ships with ccp rise.
While ccp whoever over here blaps the prices of t2 ships into the sky.
Must be an interesting office dynamic.
Dev A: I'm gonna make players want to use these ships! Dev B: No you aren't I'm gonna make them more expensive! Someone edit a derogatory term under his name again! |
Gardaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:04:00 -
[284] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Our credibility comes from our long unbroken streak of being right, every time. Can't be that long then since mynnnas prediction about moon goo prices for the rebalance turned out false. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1370
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:08:00 -
[285] - Quote
IrJosy wrote:CCP 'balancing' t2 ships with ccp rise.
While ccp whoever over here blaps the prices of t2 ships into the sky.
Must be an interesting office dynamic.
Dev A: I'm gonna make players want to use these ships! Dev B: No you aren't I'm gonna make them more expensive! Someone edit a derogatory term under his name again!
perhaps they will let us have back scanable mining sites which contain minerals gases and tech II minerals toboot... you know take away insentive to do passive income and provide an alternative for active income. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5276
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:08:00 -
[286] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote: Yes, I know it would be difficult for someone like you to understand how people who do sig scanning would be able to detect siphoning structures.
A sig scanner is scanning only for sigs. They do not randomly also scan the system to see what structures are in it and then scan down all of those. Once again, you have fundamental defects in your understanding of how the game works that makes it so your opinion is not worth the time it takes to dismiss it. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1940
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:09:00 -
[287] - Quote
Gardaz wrote:Weaselior wrote:Our credibility comes from our long unbroken streak of being right, every time. Can't be that long then since mynnnas prediction about moon goo prices for the rebalance turned out false.
Allow me to quote myself.
myself wrote:Being conservative, I'd say the R64s all go to at least 40k isk/unit in the long run, with something more like 50k-60k isk/unit being completely reasonable.
Have you checked Dysprosium lately? That's just the beginning, of course. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5276
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:09:00 -
[288] - Quote
Gardaz wrote:Weaselior wrote:Our credibility comes from our long unbroken streak of being right, every time. Can't be that long then since mynnnas prediction about moon goo prices for the rebalance turned out false. Mynnna's prediction was right, and we're starting to see the stockpiles break and the price to revert to where it 'should' be. I assume you haven't checked Dyspro prices anytime recently. |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group Gatekeepers Universe
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:11:00 -
[289] - Quote
So, to make my POS totally invulnerable to siphons, I need to set up additional harvester to mine some atmospheric gases or other crap. While processing R64 in a simple reactor, of course. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5276
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:12:00 -
[290] - Quote
sssssssssssssssssssssh shuuuuuuuuuut uuuuuuuuuuuup |
|
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1940
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:13:00 -
[291] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:So, to make my POS totally invulnerable to siphons, I need to set up additional harvester to mine some atmospheric gases or other crap. While processing R64 in a simple reactor, of course.
Great idea, until someone comes and drops multiple siphons on your pos and takes the intermediate products from your reactor. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1297
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:13:00 -
[292] - Quote
I would point out that no other group in EVE has the track record we do at promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment.
i would also point out that I was the player applauding CCP for their handling of Forex even when that personally cost me trillions. We championed the bottom up income, we championed the tech nerf.
But hey ignore the track record of calling the ball and then cracking it out of the park if you like because you believe it is because we are spinning, or covering our own interests.
Our track record of calling CCP out when it is warranted speaks for itself. We also support siphons as a concept just not at this level of balance because we know what we will do with it. You can choose to believe this is the truth or not but time will demonstrate if what I am saying is true and you can come back and reference this post.
However, if I were you guys, I would be in Jita right now buying up some stuff.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Tonraks
Bold Originals Courageous Cowards
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:15:00 -
[293] - Quote
I must say i think this implementation and the idea of a goo sucking pos module, is a pretty bad feature.
It promotes afk play, and make pos-work even more bothersome and boring than it already is.
It's almost like you devs want pos's to a feature that slowly but surely gets to be a less and less used feature.
|
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:17:00 -
[294] - Quote
ahahaha, a river of tears incoming
i have to say this is a very good move from CCP in f***** R64 cartels; also it give npc/low sec corps a piece of the pie. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5277
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:17:00 -
[295] - Quote
Tonraks wrote:I must say i think this implementation and the idea of a goo sucking pos module, is a pretty bad feature.
It promotes afk play, and make pos-work even more bothersome and boring than it already is.
It's almost like you devs want pos's to a feature that slowly but surely gets to be a less and less used feature.
that way you can justify not fixing them because only a small portion of the community uses them! |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1240
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:18:00 -
[296] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I would point out that no other group in EVE has the track record we do at promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment.
i would also point out that I was the player applauding CCP for their handling of Forex even when that personally cost me trillions. We championed the bottom up income, we championed the tech nerf.
But hey ignore the track record of calling the ball and then cracking it out of the park if you like because you believe it is because we are spinning, or covering our own interests.
Our track record of calling CCP out when it is warranted speaks for itself. We also support siphons as a concept just not at this level of balance because we know what we will do with it. You can choose to believe this is the truth or not but time will demonstrate if what I am saying is true and you can come back and reference this post.
However, if I were you guys, I would be in Jita right now buying up some stuff.
Well maby you need a beter PR division/team. |
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
307
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:18:00 -
[297] - Quote
Stacking nerf them likes mods. Fear God and Thread Nought |
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
144
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:19:00 -
[298] - Quote
This is just a tool of harrasment. There is no incentive. |
Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
175
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:22:00 -
[299] - Quote
This change is hilarious if only for the creation of this thread and the tears on the past 15 pages |
Mana Potion
A Different Kind of Gaming Community Vanguard.
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:24:00 -
[300] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does.
We are the ones that are going to be spamming these across regions. While choking off the supply that we happen to sit on the lions share of. You can think this is about us, but I would point to our track record of doing what is best for EVE. This is far more about the imbalance of the design. The design is flawed on cost vs reward to a huge degree.
I would rather see 50m a siphon but 10 is absurdly low. It is all about hours to earnback. That should be balanced in such a way that the defender and attacker have a reasonable chance of damaging each other. ISK wise.
You already planned for this? I am thinking there was a leak in the CSM membership that told you to stop moon mining and start renting.
I think it is an interesting mechanic. One that will be used by all sides to continue trolling each other.
I think I am going to also |
|
Uppsy Daisy
Perkone Caldari State
547
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:24:00 -
[301] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I would point out that no other group in EVE has the track record we do at promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment.
i would also point out that I was the player applauding CCP for their handling of Forex even when that personally cost me trillions. We championed the bottom up income, we championed the tech nerf.
But hey ignore the track record of calling the ball and then cracking it out of the park if you like because you believe it is because we are spinning, or covering our own interests.
Our track record of calling CCP out when it is warranted speaks for itself. We also support siphons as a concept just not at this level of balance because we know what we will do with it. You can choose to believe this is the truth or not but time will demonstrate if what I am saying is true and you can come back and reference this post.
However, if I were you guys, I would be in Jita right now buying up some stuff.
Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money.
You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you?
Oh no.
You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK..
How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."?
|
Pinky Hops
Rokh You like a Hurricane Nomads.
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:29:00 -
[302] - Quote
I like this change.
I like to explore in nullsec, and I spend a ton of time in Goonswarm territory.
Want to know why?
It's entirely undefended carebear space, with nobody protecting it, nobody around. I can go 20 or 30 jumps around in their territory and not see a single goon.
However, somehow they still manage to run their giant carebear farm 24/7 and there's no easy way to shut it down.
CCP is providing us with a tool to do just that. No more just spamming POS everywhere like a crazy person, AFK'ing, and watching your moons print ISK....
Now you actually have to defend your space!
What a crazy concept.
Love it. |
samualvimes
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
115
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:29:00 -
[303] - Quote
Vatek wrote:CCP Legion wrote:Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required. Release broken, fix later. Cool.
Yeah even I agree that on the face of it this looks a little too powerful
30 stolen, 20mil cost and 40m3 I would say is a better starting point.
However it may be everyone loses interest and in fact these don't actually blot out the sun.
We won't know till a month after the expansion |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5278
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:29:00 -
[304] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money. You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you? Oh no. You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK.. How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."? we told them, on these very forums, it was going to end hilariously badly
ccp didn't listen
aryth proceeded to demonstrate it ending hilariously badly |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
269
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:30:00 -
[305] - Quote
So many Goon tears in this thread. I remember a time when they didn't take this game seriously or try so hard.
But I do agree, this does seem to be a somewhat questionable feature. So somebody sets up a siphon on your tower. 'Kay.
What's the point if you (the tower owner) can just stroll over to the siphon, retrieve your stolen goo and then blow the siphon up? Seems like a good way for someone to waste 10mil on a siphon for some pointless trolling. If I was gonna do that I'd just buy 10mil worth of Catalysts and go gank miners - it'd be more "fun", more profitable, and have more impact.
To even unload the siphons you are gonna need a hauler anyway. So what are people gonna do? Run Blops with covert haulers to deploy/unload these? Seems like a bit of a waste in time and materials for questionable return. And what if folks just start tossing a few small lasers on their towers? You still gonna use your 100mil hauler? Reward doesn't seem to outweigh the risk.
Only use I could possibly see for this is during an invasion where you have presence in the system, and want to squeeze every last bit of blood out of your opponent. |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
71
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:30:00 -
[306] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:I would point out that no other group in EVE has the track record we do at promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment.
i would also point out that I was the player applauding CCP for their handling of Forex even when that personally cost me trillions. We championed the bottom up income, we championed the tech nerf.
But hey ignore the track record of calling the ball and then cracking it out of the park if you like because you believe it is because we are spinning, or covering our own interests.
Our track record of calling CCP out when it is warranted speaks for itself. We also support siphons as a concept just not at this level of balance because we know what we will do with it. You can choose to believe this is the truth or not but time will demonstrate if what I am saying is true and you can come back and reference this post.
However, if I were you guys, I would be in Jita right now buying up some stuff.
Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money. You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you? Oh no. You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK.. How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."?
They fixed FW didn't they?
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1297
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:31:00 -
[307] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:I would point out that no other group in EVE has the track record we do at promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment.
i would also point out that I was the player applauding CCP for their handling of Forex even when that personally cost me trillions. We championed the bottom up income, we championed the tech nerf.
But hey ignore the track record of calling the ball and then cracking it out of the park if you like because you believe it is because we are spinning, or covering our own interests.
Our track record of calling CCP out when it is warranted speaks for itself. We also support siphons as a concept just not at this level of balance because we know what we will do with it. You can choose to believe this is the truth or not but time will demonstrate if what I am saying is true and you can come back and reference this post.
However, if I were you guys, I would be in Jita right now buying up some stuff.
Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money. You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you? Oh no. You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK.. How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."?
I guess you missed the part where we reported it, limited the abuse to a single small period, and then supported their action to take it all away? Yeah, silly things like pesky facts. We even had a pretty blog!
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Saya Loyd
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:31:00 -
[308] - Quote
if you done GÇïGÇïit, you lose ~ 10 accounts
Goodbye eve ... |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
458
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:38:00 -
[309] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Only use I could possibly see for this is during an invasion where you have presence in the system, and want to squeeze every last bit of blood out of your opponent.
Yeah, we would NEVER do this to an enemy we're invading to make their stuff dry up. But :qq: goons are crying, point and laugh.
It's a broken mechanic. Even if it just further enables us to take over your region because you can't pay for it because lol your moons. |
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
466
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:40:00 -
[310] - Quote
Saya Loyd wrote:if you done GÇïGÇïit, you lose ~ 10 accounts Goodbye eve ...
Your stuff pls? Or at least position of your POSs, so i can steal from them till they go offline, pls? BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
|
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
88
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:46:00 -
[311] - Quote
Removing R64 from the game with killing those Siphons will do good things to my wallet. 150% markup is go. Shadoo > whoever was the first nyx on grid Shadoo > THANK GOD YOU ARE A SMART MAN and fitted the best tank in PL Shadoo > (ie. cyno) |
Tonraks
Bold Originals Courageous Cowards
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:47:00 -
[312] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Tonraks wrote:I must say i think this implementation and the idea of a goo sucking pos module, is a pretty bad feature.
It promotes afk play, and make pos-work even more bothersome and boring than it already is.
It's almost like you devs want pos's to a feature that slowly but surely gets to be a less and less used feature.
that way you can justify not fixing them because only a small portion of the community uses them!
Sigh. Just my thoughts exactly.
The thought of someone dropping a module, then going afk for a few hours, only to come back and collect goo...wow. what a great an immersive feature! - That sounds like a bunch of fun.
Seriously CCP... wake up! |
CtrlAltDelete Dethahal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:49:00 -
[313] - Quote
I am spending every ISK I own on these and will unleash madness on lowsec moon empires.
Get ready kids, Goons have a new feature to abuse |
Pinky Hops
Rokh You like a Hurricane Nomads.
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:50:00 -
[314] - Quote
Tonraks wrote:Weaselior wrote:Tonraks wrote:I must say i think this implementation and the idea of a goo sucking pos module, is a pretty bad feature.
It promotes afk play, and make pos-work even more bothersome and boring than it already is.
It's almost like you devs want pos's to a feature that slowly but surely gets to be a less and less used feature.
that way you can justify not fixing them because only a small portion of the community uses them! Sigh. Just my thoughts exactly. The thought of someone dropping a module, then going afk for a few hours, only to come back and collect goo...wow. what a great an immersive feature! - That sounds like a bunch of fun. Seriously CCP... wake up!
As opposed to going AFK while your moons print ISK and then just mindlessly going to collect it?
It seems to me that this is the pot calling the kettle black. Moon mining is already a passive feature....
Kiss full yields goodbye, and be prepared to defend your space, actively.
Either that, or cry like the goons. They are crying the most because they are going to lose the most. |
Tiye Q
SOLAR MESSIAHS INC.
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:53:00 -
[315] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:I find it very entertaining that players who periodically flood Jita with Tornadoes are complaining about a cheap griefing mechanic.
My thoughts exactly.
The siphon unit is not impressive and hardly qualifies as expansion worthy, but the complaints, cognitive dissonance, and hypocrisy from large coalition/alliance members is staggering.
|
Tonraks
Bold Originals Courageous Cowards
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:57:00 -
[316] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:Tonraks wrote:Weaselior wrote:Tonraks wrote:I must say i think this implementation and the idea of a goo sucking pos module, is a pretty bad feature.
It promotes afk play, and make pos-work even more bothersome and boring than it already is.
It's almost like you devs want pos's to a feature that slowly but surely gets to be a less and less used feature.
that way you can justify not fixing them because only a small portion of the community uses them! Sigh. Just my thoughts exactly. The thought of someone dropping a module, then going afk for a few hours, only to come back and collect goo...wow. what a great an immersive feature! - That sounds like a bunch of fun. Seriously CCP... wake up! As opposed to going AFK while your moons print ISK and then just mindlessly going to collect it? It seems to me that this is the pot calling the kettle black. Moon mining is already a passive feature....
If you think doing pos reactions is afk work, i got news for you. - It isn't.
The amount of logistical work you need to do is immense, just freightering fuel around takes a couple of JF jumps, depending on how many pos's you have.
Also the investment on sitting reactions chains up, are huge. With that amount of isk it takes, you can make far more manufactuering, with a fraction of the time and risk.
|
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
147
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:58:00 -
[317] - Quote
Tiye Q wrote:Callic Veratar wrote:I find it very entertaining that players who periodically flood Jita with Tornadoes are complaining about a cheap griefing mechanic. My thoughts exactly. The siphon unit is not impressive and hardly qualifies as expansion worthy, but the complaints, cognitive dissonance, and hypocrisy from large coalition/alliance members is staggering. While it is a little thing, it makes large pos farms over multiple regions that you only visit once every two weeks to empty the cyno and cap off the fuel, exponentially more labor intensive. So this could really be a small pebble that starts an avalanche. |
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
202
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:58:00 -
[318] - Quote
So, after reading a lot of the comments, I still think that in general the Siphon is a good idea, but there are some issues:
First off, no this won't break Goons, or any of the other coalitions roaming around the Eve Universe.. well, not initially anyways. That is because they have a few options they will probably employ.
Likely may of the coalitions will require alliance members/renters patrols to perform due diligence patrols through important POS systems, destroying any Siphon's they see. This will be relatively easy since you're not likely to siphon from low-value moons so everyone will know where to look, cutting the time down significantly. An interesting side note is that maybe they'll even pay those that take out the siphons with the moon goo they find. Seems easy enough to confirm as well with the killmails too. Goonswarm probably will have an automated payout system within a few month perhaps?
There will be a burst of activity to use these things against others from the very beginning, with much of the activity on the border areas, which also will limit where a response needs to be as well. Then people will start to realize that there isn't much of a profit in "medium-level" type raid operations because the cycle takes too long for a Siphon to cover its own costs as well as potential risk.
This leaves only two population types vulnerable: Small independants and Well-insulated Null-sec alliances. Both of these are subject to human cycles of sleep, laziness, ignorance, etc. These will be main prey for people using a Siphon Unit. The problem here is that a.) Small Independent are going to be easy targets.. probably run them out of space to be honest. and b.) the really juicy targets, the null-sec alliances and corporations that live far from enemy fleets, low-sec, and high-sec are not easy to get to and so a typical blockade runner with, say a single cargohold expander will have only about 5000m3 worth of loot he could potential get.
If we break it down, using current prices of Dys, waiting the full 23 hours it would take to get a full load, you are talking that a full load in a Blockade Runner, and whose siphones haven't been either picked off by any of the locals (of any side mind you.. and they will be checking), you will probably be bringing home a payday of $180 million isk minus the initial cost of the six siphons.. through very difficult and dangerous space. If we go with something like Neo on the other hand, you are looking about half that if everything goes perfectly meaning that you probably made only $60 to $70 mil isk for the venture. Those numbers of course would assume that the mooons in question are close by.
At this point, with the current figures, I'd have to say that for a rare and industrious few this could be a profitable business. But likely it will be only worthwhile in two uses, both of these not being for proft: As a tool used to destroy and disrupt isk generation for an enemy alliance. Or as a way for disgrunted players to get back at their own alliance's profits. He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
|
Mister McDerp
University of Caille Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:59:00 -
[319] - Quote
Solution to part of the crying is simple. Make it so it actually just affect moonharvesters. People that sit on worthless moons won't care much and people that have moons worth it are at least actually big or at least powerful alliances. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
642
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:04:00 -
[320] - Quote
Again, the solution to not rewarding AFK gameplay -- on either POS owner or griefer side -- is an actual asynchronous gameplay mechanic other than "most recent to act, wins."
Described in detail at my post on page 11 here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3749721#post3749721 @pmchem on twitter || GARPA || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
|
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1942
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:04:00 -
[321] - Quote
Mister McDerp wrote:Solution to part of the crying is simple. Make it so it actually just affect moonharvesters. People that sit on worthless moons won't care much and people that have moons worth it are at least actually big or at least powerful alliances.
hahaha you have no idea why people are saying this is a bad feature do you. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
333
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:04:00 -
[322] - Quote
CCP really do not know what they could be unleashing.
The next Goon interdiction will be two-fold.
1st - Capture every Highsec POCO they can & set absurd taxes.
2nd - Drop siphons on every money moon they can find outside of CFC space.
You all talk about Goon tears in this thread, you just wait. If will be everyone else's tears that flow on the forums after this new release.
Then for sh!ts & giggles they will gank freighters & miners in higsec while burning Jita.
Most you you truly do not understand the ways that the Mittani & Goons have helped this game over the years.
This game would be more screwed up if it wasn't for their desire to take advantage of all the wholes that CCP introduces into the game with new releases. They even tell CCP that certain new additions are wrong & then when CCP does not listen, they set out to prove it.
I am not hear to kiss the Goons A$$'s, actually they can kiss mine just because I have such a sweet one. R.I.P. Vile Rat |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1376
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:06:00 -
[323] - Quote
Saya Loyd wrote:if you done GÇïGÇïit, you lose ~ 10 accounts Goodbye eve ...
you are a pos manager right?
lemme guess you actually have one main and the rest are for pos management...
i am fine with you rage quiting.
chao There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
331
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:06:00 -
[324] - Quote
CtrlAltDelete Dethahal wrote:I am spending every ISK I own on these and will unleash madness on lowsec moon empires. Get ready kids, Goons have a new feature to abuse
K. We live and play in our space and will just blow them up shortly after they are dropped. Want Dust514 district ownership to matter? Want to nuke someone's PI from orbit? Read here:
http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2013/09/dust514-and-future-of-planetary.html |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4756
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:07:00 -
[325] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money. You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you? Oh no. You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK.. How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."? we told them, on these very forums, it was going to end hilariously badly ccp didn't listen aryth proceeded to demonstrate it ending hilariously badly I think the goons by and large have done a huge amount of good for the game catching issues like this.
However, claims that in response you will spam thousands of these seems a bit silly to me, sorry.
You simply aren't going to find pilots willing to devote the time necessary every day to actually do an activity like that effectively. You need to check these things every, single, day... to collect the goods so that they will continue to siphon.
All jokes aside, I really do think most of your pilots will decide they have better things to do after a few days of that. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Balmer Banshot
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:08:00 -
[326] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:Tonraks wrote:Weaselior wrote:Tonraks wrote:I must say i think this implementation and the idea of a goo sucking pos module, is a pretty bad feature.
It promotes afk play, and make pos-work even more bothersome and boring than it already is.
It's almost like you devs want pos's to a feature that slowly but surely gets to be a less and less used feature.
that way you can justify not fixing them because only a small portion of the community uses them! Sigh. Just my thoughts exactly. The thought of someone dropping a module, then going afk for a few hours, only to come back and collect goo...wow. what a great an immersive feature! - That sounds like a bunch of fun. Seriously CCP... wake up! As opposed to going AFK while your moons print ISK and then just mindlessly going to collect it? It seems to me that this is the pot calling the kettle black. Moon mining is already a passive feature.... Kiss full yields goodbye, and be prepared to defend your space, actively. Either that, or cry like the goons. They are crying the most because they are going to lose the most.
People seem to forget that to take a valuable moon requires a large fleet and several hours of time. Lets say 200 man hours. If a fight or two happens, tack on the additional cost of lost ships etc. Some of my favorite times in null have been large fleet fights over moons.
Individuals only reap the benefits of moons in the form of alliance/corporate funds (ie: ship replacement programs, selling the goo to pay for SOV fees, system upgrades etc.).
I like the idea of the siphon .. and am getting my small army of covert cynos together to go play .. but I don't expect any real conflict due to this mechanic change. The writing has been on the wall for a while now regarding moon goo & any alliance paying attention has already found ways to fill the gap.
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1298
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:09:00 -
[327] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Weaselior wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money. You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you? Oh no. You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK.. How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."? we told them, on these very forums, it was going to end hilariously badly ccp didn't listen aryth proceeded to demonstrate it ending hilariously badly I think the goons by and large have done a huge amount of good for the game catching issues like this. However, claims that in response you will spam thousands of these seems a bit silly to me, sorry. You simply aren't going to find pilots willing to devote the time necessary every day to actually do an activity like that effectively. You need to check these things every, single, day... to collect the goods so that they will continue to siphon. All jokes aside, I really do think most of your pilots will decide they have better things to do after a few days of that.
I want to quote this for later. You don't need to collect anything.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1376
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:09:00 -
[328] - Quote
Kyt Thrace wrote:CCP really do not know what they could be unleashing.
The next Goon interdiction will be two-fold.
1st - Capture every Highsec POCO they can & set absurd taxes.
2nd - Drop siphons on every money moon they can find outside of CFC space.
You all talk about Goon tears in this thread, you just wait. If will be everyone else's tears that flow on the forums after this new release.
Then for sh!ts & giggles they will gank freighters & miners in higsec while burning Jita.
Most you you truly do not understand the ways that the Mittani & Goons have helped this game over the years.
This game would be more screwed up if it wasn't for their desire to take advantage of all the wholes that CCP introduces into the game with new releases. They even tell CCP that certain new additions are wrong & then when CCP does not listen, they set out to prove it.
I am not hear to kiss the Goons A$$'s, actually they can kiss mine just because I have such a sweet one.
so pretty much all goons will be drones... cuss defending all those high sec poco's while deploying the shyphons on every non cfc pos and eliminating all the hostile ones in goon space and defending agaisnt any groups who will try to take advantage of the ADHD by attacking your space will be a gigantic task...
honestly if you pull if off good for you... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4756
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:11:00 -
[329] - Quote
Kyt Thrace wrote:CCP really do not know what they could be unleashing.
The next Goon interdiction will be two-fold.
1st - Capture every Highsec POCO they can & set absurd taxes.
2nd - Drop siphons on every money moon they can find outside of CFC space.
You all talk about Goon tears in this thread, you just wait. If will be everyone else's tears that flow on the forums after this new release.
Then for sh!ts & giggles they will gank freighters & miners in higsec while burning Jita.
Most you you truly do not understand the ways that the Mittani & Goons have helped this game over the years.
This game would be more screwed up if it wasn't for their desire to take advantage of all the wholes that CCP introduces into the game with new releases. They even tell CCP that certain new additions are wrong & then when CCP does not listen, they set out to prove it.
I am not hear to kiss the Goons A$$'s, actually they can kiss mine just because I have such a sweet one. According to your 1st and 2nd point, the goons will be "unleashed"... to become what they most despise. Industrialists primarily concerned with the time sink that grinding ISK will become.
Monitoring your POCO's to make sure no one replaces them (after killing thousands of them to begin with). LOL Spending hours each day either spamming siphons or collecting material from the few that survive.
Somehow, I really don't see the Goons becoming slaves to the time sink those activities would become. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
415
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:11:00 -
[330] - Quote
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:CtrlAltDelete Dethahal wrote:I am spending every ISK I own on these and will unleash madness on lowsec moon empires. Get ready kids, Goons have a new feature to abuse K. We live and play in our space and will just blow them up shortly after they are dropped.
Hey, I just resubbed after a bit away from the game. Can you entertain me with crazy stories about how awesome it is to fly around and shoot stationary objects in space that don't shoot back for hours on end? I'm in a nostalgic mood. |
|
Zappity
Kurved Space
551
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:12:00 -
[331] - Quote
devblog wrote:Other variations could steal additional types of materials, such as complex reactions or polymer reactions. Yes, please do this to enable some wormhole gameplay! Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1942
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:13:00 -
[332] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Weaselior wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money. You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you? Oh no. You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK.. How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."? we told them, on these very forums, it was going to end hilariously badly ccp didn't listen aryth proceeded to demonstrate it ending hilariously badly I think the goons by and large have done a huge amount of good for the game catching issues like this. However, claims that in response you will spam thousands of these seems a bit silly to me, sorry. You simply aren't going to find pilots willing to devote the time necessary every day to actually do an activity like that effectively. You need to check these things every, single, day... to collect the goods so that they will continue to siphon. All jokes aside, I really do think most of your pilots will decide they have better things to do after a few days of that.
Nah, they're cheap enough right now to be the ultimate moon griefing tool. Drop 'em and forget 'em. Billion isk hits every remotely valuable moon in a region. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4756
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:13:00 -
[333] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Weaselior wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money. You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you? Oh no. You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK.. How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."? we told them, on these very forums, it was going to end hilariously badly ccp didn't listen aryth proceeded to demonstrate it ending hilariously badly I think the goons by and large have done a huge amount of good for the game catching issues like this. However, claims that in response you will spam thousands of these seems a bit silly to me, sorry. You simply aren't going to find pilots willing to devote the time necessary every day to actually do an activity like that effectively. You need to check these things every, single, day... to collect the goods so that they will continue to siphon. All jokes aside, I really do think most of your pilots will decide they have better things to do after a few days of that. I want to quote this for later. You don't need to collect anything. So even with full they keep siphoning? Seriously, do you have a source for that?
Because if you do, that's a pretty simple thing to change. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:13:00 -
[334] - Quote
It's just like CCP handing Ishkune Scorpions to Somer blink only instead of them handing billions of isk to Blink they are handing TRILLIONS to goons. |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
415
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:15:00 -
[335] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: I think the goons by and large have done a huge amount of good for the game catching issues like this.
However, claims that in response you will spam thousands of these seems a bit silly to me, sorry.
You simply aren't going to find pilots willing to devote the time necessary every day to actually do an activity like that effectively. You need to check these things every, single, day... to collect the goods so that they will continue to siphon.
All jokes aside, I really do think most of your pilots will decide they have better things to do after a few days of that.
it's not about that. Every not-CFC POS we interrupt drives down supply, thus increasing profits on CFC POS-mined minerals. We spent weeks interdicting ice, huge logistical efforts to shut down Jita and we basically frogstomp hostiles starting by cutting their economies out from underneath them before actually fighting for sov. If you think we won't find people to harass lowsec pubbies by stealing and/or choking supply for our own economic beneift, you're sorely misinformed. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4759
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:16:00 -
[336] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:Burseg Sardaukar wrote:CtrlAltDelete Dethahal wrote:I am spending every ISK I own on these and will unleash madness on lowsec moon empires. Get ready kids, Goons have a new feature to abuse K. We live and play in our space and will just blow them up shortly after they are dropped. Hey, I just resubbed after a bit away from the game. Can you entertain me with crazy stories about how awesome it is to fly around and shoot stationary objects in space that don't shoot back for hours on end? I'm in a nostalgic mood. They don't look to terribly difficult to take down actually. How long do you estimate for a single BS to remove one? To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
104
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:17:00 -
[337] - Quote
This will be great for wh'ers Blue-Fire Best Fire |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
415
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:19:00 -
[338] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Courthouse wrote:Burseg Sardaukar wrote:CtrlAltDelete Dethahal wrote:I am spending every ISK I own on these and will unleash madness on lowsec moon empires. Get ready kids, Goons have a new feature to abuse K. We live and play in our space and will just blow them up shortly after they are dropped. Hey, I just resubbed after a bit away from the game. Can you entertain me with crazy stories about how awesome it is to fly around and shoot stationary objects in space that don't shoot back for hours on end? I'm in a nostalgic mood. They don't look to terribly difficult to take down actually. How long do you estimate for a single BS to remove one?
Let's say, for instance, it's 10 minutes. You can drop at least 2 in that time if you're scanning, let's say 4-5 if you know the planet/moons you're going for. At 10m per module, they're cheap enough to keep battleships busy for as long as they want to stay logged in. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4759
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:20:00 -
[339] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: I think the goons by and large have done a huge amount of good for the game catching issues like this.
However, claims that in response you will spam thousands of these seems a bit silly to me, sorry.
You simply aren't going to find pilots willing to devote the time necessary every day to actually do an activity like that effectively. You need to check these things every, single, day... to collect the goods so that they will continue to siphon.
All jokes aside, I really do think most of your pilots will decide they have better things to do after a few days of that.
it's not about that. Every not-CFC POS we interrupt drives down supply, thus increasing profits on CFC POS-mined minerals. We spent weeks interdicting ice, huge logistical efforts to shut down Jita and we basically frogstomp hostiles starting by cutting their economies out from underneath them before actually fighting for sov. If you think we won't find people to harass lowsec pubbies by stealing and/or choking supply for our own economic beneift, you're sorely misinformed. And I can see that working... IF you can drop them en mass and they just keep on siphoning.
However, that's a pretty absurd mechanic and will be the first thing the community demands be changed if that is indeed how they are planned to work. It simply makes no sense to have it keep siphoning if it's full. It serves absolutely no positive game function.
That's why I'd like confirmation from someone that this is how they are currently intended to work. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Tiye Q
SOLAR MESSIAHS INC.
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:20:00 -
[340] - Quote
xttz wrote:It should be a bit of a red flag when CCP come up with the cheapest griefing tool in EVE for years, and GoonSwarm are the ones saying "hang on that's a bit much".
What exactly do you lot think this is going to do to the Tech 2 market when virtually no one is getting moon materials without interruption? We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?
The Tech 2 materials market has just been handed back to big alliances. We're going to grief the **** out of everyone if this remains unchanged, and make bank while doing so.
CFC space is not behind some impregnable wall. Anyone can get into CFC systems at anytime, and with the new interceptor changes, people will be able to get in much easier. CFC/GSF will not be able to grief EVE with this feature. In fact the opposite will occur. Random entities will start to grief every CFC/GSF system, and I'm not talking about renter systems.
|
|
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
932
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:21:00 -
[341] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money. You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you? Oh no. You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK.. How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."?
Rule of thumb: Anything that can be used by small, incompetent corporations to hurt large alliances can be used by competent, well organized, large alliances to completely trash entire segments of the economy and drive small corporations out of business. +á
You've been warned this time.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
331
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:21:00 -
[342] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Courthouse wrote:Burseg Sardaukar wrote:CtrlAltDelete Dethahal wrote:I am spending every ISK I own on these and will unleash madness on lowsec moon empires. Get ready kids, Goons have a new feature to abuse K. We live and play in our space and will just blow them up shortly after they are dropped. Hey, I just resubbed after a bit away from the game. Can you entertain me with crazy stories about how awesome it is to fly around and shoot stationary objects in space that don't shoot back for hours on end? I'm in a nostalgic mood. They don't look to terribly difficult to take down actually. How long do you estimate for a single BS to remove one?
Not to mention the things will have to be replaced by the same guys that claim they are inconveniencing us, every single day, or multiple times a day to actually have their desired effect.
I applaud Goon ice interdiction and general highsec griefing, and acknowledge that they are more organized to accomplish such a large-scale grief, but siphoning every single moon every single day seems a little unrealistic. Want Dust514 district ownership to matter? Want to nuke someone's PI from orbit? Read here:
http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2013/09/dust514-and-future-of-planetary.html |
Mister McDerp
University of Caille Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:22:00 -
[343] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Mister McDerp wrote:Solution to part of the crying is simple. Make it so it actually just affect moonharvesters. People that sit on worthless moons won't care much and people that have moons worth it are at least actually big or at least powerful alliances. hahaha you have no idea why people are saying this is a bad feature do you.
I'm running POS's myself, I'm pretty sure I know exactly why its terrible.
I should have probably said it different. But I'm too lazy to actually do that... urgh. Well I said it would be a solution to PART of the crying (mine for example, i wouldn't care much). It really wouldn't be good solution though, I'll admit to that.
A good solution would be a complete POS revamp without making lives of people tending to them even more miserable. A lot of suggestions have been made here how a Siphon Module could be implemented in a meaningful way with that. But we all know thats not gonna happen soon. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:22:00 -
[344] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:So even with full they keep siphoning? Seriously, do you have a source for that? Because if you do, that's a pretty simple thing to change.
no,wtf ppl, read the damn blog
Quote: The Small Mobile Siphon Unit can steal 60 units of raw material or 25 units of processed material. It has a capacity of 1200 m-¦. If it is full, it stops stealing. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4759
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:23:00 -
[345] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Courthouse wrote:Burseg Sardaukar wrote:CtrlAltDelete Dethahal wrote:I am spending every ISK I own on these and will unleash madness on lowsec moon empires. Get ready kids, Goons have a new feature to abuse K. We live and play in our space and will just blow them up shortly after they are dropped. Hey, I just resubbed after a bit away from the game. Can you entertain me with crazy stories about how awesome it is to fly around and shoot stationary objects in space that don't shoot back for hours on end? I'm in a nostalgic mood. They don't look to terribly difficult to take down actually. How long do you estimate for a single BS to remove one? Let's say, for instance, it's 10 minutes. You can drop at least 2 in that time if you're scanning, let's say 4-5 if you know the planet/moons you're going for. At 10m per module, they're cheap enough to keep battleships busy for as long as they want to stay logged in.
Well if we go with your estimate, that means I can log in a couple of my other accounts (or more likely just grab a couple of buddies) and down each in a couple of minutes... not much longer than it takes to gank a ratter in a bomber.
I'm sorry, I'm really not trying to jerk your chain, but I don't see that as a serious issue. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Pinky Hops
Rokh You like a Hurricane Nomads.
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:28:00 -
[346] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: I think the goons by and large have done a huge amount of good for the game catching issues like this.
However, claims that in response you will spam thousands of these seems a bit silly to me, sorry.
You simply aren't going to find pilots willing to devote the time necessary every day to actually do an activity like that effectively. You need to check these things every, single, day... to collect the goods so that they will continue to siphon.
All jokes aside, I really do think most of your pilots will decide they have better things to do after a few days of that.
it's not about that. Every not-CFC POS we interrupt drives down supply, thus increasing profits on CFC POS-mined minerals. We spent weeks interdicting ice, huge logistical efforts to shut down Jita and we basically frogstomp hostiles starting by cutting their economies out from underneath them before actually fighting for sov. If you think we won't find people to harass lowsec pubbies by stealing and/or choking supply for our own economic beneift, you're sorely misinformed.
Except the biggest losses to price are going to come from the giant alliances like goonswarm.
You don't defend your territory. I know this because I fly in it all the time.
While you are out harassing the "small time pubbies" who provide a relatively minor amount of moon goo, your own infrastructure will be collapsing beneath you...
Which I think is, the entire point of this addition |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1337
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:28:00 -
[347] - Quote
Balmer Banshot wrote:People seem to forget that to take a valuable moon requires a large fleet and several hours of time. Lets say 200 man hours. If a fight or two happens, tack on the additional cost of lost ships etc. Some of my favorite times in null have been large fleet fights over moons.
Individuals only reap the benefits of moons in the form of alliance/corporate funds (ie: ship replacement programs, selling the goo to pay for SOV fees, system upgrades etc.).
I'm glad that at least one person understands what POSes actually used to be. POS income isn't dependent on some dude running a JF once a month. POS income is dependent on military force to capture and hold moons. Unfortunately CCP seem intent on destroying this mechanic and replacing it with PvE/clicking/logging in to check overview. |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
332
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:29:00 -
[348] - Quote
The amount of people complaining about the griefing potential of this device is truly astounding. I'm tempted to fish up all the mining and industrial hate threads that crop up constantly, and how we're told "it's a cutthroat game, deal with it"
Very much looking forward to enjoying these lovely little toys in my helios. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1298
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:30:00 -
[349] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Aryth wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Weaselior wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money. You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you? Oh no. You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK.. How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."? we told them, on these very forums, it was going to end hilariously badly ccp didn't listen aryth proceeded to demonstrate it ending hilariously badly I think the goons by and large have done a huge amount of good for the game catching issues like this. However, claims that in response you will spam thousands of these seems a bit silly to me, sorry. You simply aren't going to find pilots willing to devote the time necessary every day to actually do an activity like that effectively. You need to check these things every, single, day... to collect the goods so that they will continue to siphon. All jokes aside, I really do think most of your pilots will decide they have better things to do after a few days of that. I want to quote this for later. You don't need to collect anything. So even with full they keep siphoning? Seriously, do you have a source for that? Because if you do, that's a pretty simple thing to change.
You drop 3 and nuke the entire output. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1337
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:30:00 -
[350] - Quote
If you want siphons to promote PvP, and not terrible log-in-every-3-hours "gameplay", make them
a) invulnerable to POS guns b) send a mail to POS owner when anchored.
That way you know when an enemy sets them up in your space, and you have to put together a response fleet to take them down or lose income. As an attacker you can use them to bait defenders into a fight. |
|
KAT3
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:31:00 -
[351] - Quote
CCP Legion wrote:Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.
Have you given any thought at all to balance. I see and understand the ramifications and potential isk for those who siphon Poses. I fail to see what has been put in place as a balance to help the pos owner in his attempt to keep his pos free of siphons. And having the API lie about the contents is really disturbing. If you are starting down the path of API lies -- what is next??
|
Sturmwolke
461
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:31:00 -
[352] - Quote
Set POS guns to attack everyone except blues - there's your automatic notification for POS owner that something fishy is going on. There's probably a window of 10-20secs the first shot is fired, deploying a syphon unit wouldn't be a big isssue ... but getting the loot might be tricky in anything less than a BR :)
So, accordingly, POS min/maxing owners will definitely deploy structures with best scan res to serve as early warning e.g faction small AC/hybrid/laser batteries - 300mm scan res Wonder if the prices for these will bump up a bit :D |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4760
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:32:00 -
[353] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:So even with full they keep siphoning? Seriously, do you have a source for that? Because if you do, that's a pretty simple thing to change. no,wtf ppl, read the damn blog Quote: The Small Mobile Siphon Unit can steal 60 units of raw material or 25 units of processed material. It has a capacity of 1200 m-¦. If it is full, it stops stealing. Thanks, I thought I saw that somewhere. Yes, I was at work and to lazy to recheck the blog.
Again, many thanks.
So, I'm correct and these are virtually useless as a "fire and forget" grief tool. To keep siphoning a crew would have to empty a siphon every 20 hours (raw materials) or every 48 hours (processed materials).
This is assuming someone hasn't popped it for giggles (let alone the POS owner or his friends) in the few minutes it takes to blow one up (with on negative effects).
Still not seeing this working as an effective grief tool, or even as an effective market manipulation device. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:32:00 -
[354] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Balmer Banshot wrote:People seem to forget that to take a valuable moon requires a large fleet and several hours of time. Lets say 200 man hours. If a fight or two happens, tack on the additional cost of lost ships etc. Some of my favorite times in null have been large fleet fights over moons.
Individuals only reap the benefits of moons in the form of alliance/corporate funds (ie: ship replacement programs, selling the goo to pay for SOV fees, system upgrades etc.).
I'm glad that at least one person understands what POSes actually used to be. POS income isn't dependent on some dude running a JF once a month. POS income is dependent on military force to capture and hold moons. Unfortunately CCP seem intent on destroying this mechanic and replacing it with PvE/clicking/logging in to check overview.
this coming from Fcon military powerhouse ... |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
270
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:33:00 -
[355] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:They don't look to terribly difficult to take down actually. How long do you estimate for a single BS to remove one? You don't use a BS. You pull a POS gun out of storage, deploy it, man the gun, and then go make a sandwich. Done. Who cares how long it takes when you are AFK? These things are pointless.
|
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
471
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:33:00 -
[356] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money. You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you? Oh no. You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK.. How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."? Rule of thumb: Anything that can be used by small, incompetent corporations to hurt large alliances can be used by competent, well organized, large alliances to completely trash entire segments of the economy and drive small corporations out of business. +á You've been warned this time.
You got 3 coalitions in nullsec. 2 of them don't have much of space and will guard much easily their POSs than the 3rd that is a bit stretched (you know which is the 3rd). Now add to the equations lowsec and 0.0 Npc entities and the fact that the CFC is most hated of all those 3.
BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4760
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:37:00 -
[357] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:They don't look to terribly difficult to take down actually. How long do you estimate for a single BS to remove one? You don't use a BS. You pull a POS gun out of storage, deploy it, man the gun, and then go make a sandwich. Done. Who cares how long it takes when you are AFK? These things are pointless. Very very true if the POS owner (or one of his corp mates) spots it.
However what I was trying to point out was that quite often these things will get blown up by people that happen to spot them while out doing other activites... and if they have blue status to the POS owner (or just to be obnoxious) will swing in for a couple of minutes to grab a free kill mail. No obsessive logging in to check or POS guns required.
Let me be clear, I'm not bringing this up to be a ass to the goons. They usually are pretty good at pointing out what they consider to be dangerous or faulty game mechanics. I'm just saying a couple of aspects of the game mechanics involved has been overlooked in some of the worst case scenario's presented. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1337
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:39:00 -
[358] - Quote
Why would you blow it up when you can take out the moongoo, leave, and repeat later for as long as it takes the owner to notice?
*edit* misread. Obviously if you're blue you wouldn't do that.
You wouldn't do that, right? |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1298
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:41:00 -
[359] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:gascanu wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:So even with full they keep siphoning? Seriously, do you have a source for that? Because if you do, that's a pretty simple thing to change. no,wtf ppl, read the damn blog Quote: The Small Mobile Siphon Unit can steal 60 units of raw material or 25 units of processed material. It has a capacity of 1200 m-¦. If it is full, it stops stealing. Thanks, I thought I saw that somewhere. Yes, I was at work and to lazy to recheck the blog. Again, many thanks. So, I'm correct and these are virtually useless as a "fire and forget" grief tool. To keep siphoning a crew would have to empty a siphon every 20 hours (raw materials) or every 48 hours (processed materials). This is assuming someone hasn't popped it for giggles (let alone the POS owner or his friends) in the few minutes it takes to blow one up (with no negative effects). Still not seeing this working as an effective grief tool, or even as an effective market manipulation device.
The key is what I pointed out in previous posts. Multiple siphons = bad
I understand why they included it to prevent baffling concepts but it also means you have the ability to nuke all output in general and have multiple siphons "chained". This is essentially the core feature that allows mass griefing.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4760
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:42:00 -
[360] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Why would you blow it up when you can take out the moongoo, leave, and repeat later for as long as it takes the owner to notice?
*edit* misread. Obviously if you're blue you wouldn't do that.
You wouldn't do that, right? I suppose that depends on how blue your blue status actually is.
But you are correct, that is also a distinct possibility. Better yet, if the thing is full just empty it, pop it for the kill mail, and put up your own. Obviously the owner isn't highly attentive. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
|
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
48
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:45:00 -
[361] - Quote
I do not think I am understanding this correctly.
I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away? |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
932
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:46:00 -
[362] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: Still not seeing this working as an effective grief tool, or even as an effective market manipulation device.
Don't worry, we'll show you.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
48
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:46:00 -
[363] - Quote
I have not read the full thread so please forgive my ramblings if someone already mentioned this. Allow cov-ops cloaks on jump freighters. That way one would use a blockade runner to deliver any size siphons and pick up the goo, have ample space to store it in and when the time is right, or one gets bored, take off with the spoils to wherever. Imagine all the plex, somer blinks and other isk sinks this will open up even more.....I'm being semi sarcastic. Can I also getz what once was a very rare Scorpion? Pretty please with a cherry on top?
I am still waiting for a lot more info on the other deployables because if my alliance can begin harrasing nullbears in their own territory and make some isk in the process, then we just might stop mining and running lvl 4s and set up roams to get us some payback for all the griefing they and their alts do in highsec. Spend some of the billions we got saved selling skilled up toons to noob null and w bears. No need to come looking for us, we might just drop in of our own free will. Why not seed the shield breacher skill books in game? Then invent a new module and make it so that there is a chance to breach a POS's shield so that industrials can get in and loot. Even better, make it so the owner does NOT get infomed of the breach. Also bring back mines, imagine the lols if one could place mines INSIDE the shields of a POS after looting. Oh the horror!
I really don't think this is what CCP is after....but depending on how they implement siphons one could start a troll extortion racket in low - null sec. Pay me or patrol every system you "own" everyday, no more pvp blobs for all of your members every day, ever, you nullbear you - and so sorry small timer, give us your isk or man that POS 24/7/365. The scammers could be limitless, specially if the siphons are small and cheap and insurable.
|
Azrael Dinn
The 20th Legion Mildly Sober
176
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:46:00 -
[364] - Quote
And I still don't see where do we need a module like this.
CMS or CCP whats the point of this? is this part of something bigger and better or is this just a one time thing because you ran out of good ideas? After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
932
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:48:00 -
[365] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:I do not think I am understanding this correctly.
I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away?
POS guns and EWAR take almost a minute to lock frigate sized targets.
Of course you probably have never seen a nullsec POS.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
409
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:48:00 -
[366] - Quote
Will it be able to steal from biochemical reactors?
Coreli Corporation: Small gang PVP & Drug Production, Apply now! |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:48:00 -
[367] - Quote
Tiye Q wrote:xttz wrote:It should be a bit of a red flag when CCP come up with the cheapest griefing tool in EVE for years, and GoonSwarm are the ones saying "hang on that's a bit much".
What exactly do you lot think this is going to do to the Tech 2 market when virtually no one is getting moon materials without interruption? We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?
The Tech 2 materials market has just been handed back to big alliances. We're going to grief the **** out of everyone if this remains unchanged, and make bank while doing so. CFC space is not behind some impregnable wall. Anyone can get into CFC systems at anytime, and with the new interceptor changes, people will be able to get in much easier. CFC/GSF will not be able to grief EVE with this feature. In fact the opposite will occur. Random entities will start to grief every CFC/GSF system, and I'm not talking about renter systems.
You're absolutely right. There's no way our thousands of players and trillions of ISK will allow us to grief entire swathes of space alongside manipulating the T2 materials market for further gain. I mean it's not like we've ever made a fortune from broken game mechanics like this before, is it? |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1943
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:49:00 -
[368] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:I do not think I am understanding this correctly.
I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away?
POS guns are crap and even small ones take several seconds to lock anything. Warp disruption batteries take a lot longer thanks to a low (36mm) scan res. On top of that there's a random delay before they start shooting. You'll have no problem flying in, dropping one and leaving, or flying in, looting one and leaving, before you're in any danger from the POS, even if it's manned. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1298
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:49:00 -
[369] - Quote
xttz wrote:Tiye Q wrote:xttz wrote:It should be a bit of a red flag when CCP come up with the cheapest griefing tool in EVE for years, and GoonSwarm are the ones saying "hang on that's a bit much".
What exactly do you lot think this is going to do to the Tech 2 market when virtually no one is getting moon materials without interruption? We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?
The Tech 2 materials market has just been handed back to big alliances. We're going to grief the **** out of everyone if this remains unchanged, and make bank while doing so. CFC space is not behind some impregnable wall. Anyone can get into CFC systems at anytime, and with the new interceptor changes, people will be able to get in much easier. CFC/GSF will not be able to grief EVE with this feature. In fact the opposite will occur. Random entities will start to grief every CFC/GSF system, and I'm not talking about renter systems. You're absolutely right. There's no way our thousands of players and trillions of ISK will allow us to grief entire swathes of space alongside manipulating the T2 materials market for further gain. I mean it's not like we've ever made a fortune from broken game mechanics like this before, is it?
See, when you just spell it out that way, it is far less funny later. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:51:00 -
[370] - Quote
this is the first tool in a long time CCP give to small/medium alliances in npc 0.0 or low sec that will help them fight the large coalitions, and put a better defence of "their space";
i see allot of tears and allot of "oh my god it's end of the world!!!", but to be honest, noone will try for reall, to siphon all the moons in deklein for example; yes some ppl will deploy some for gigles and ****, but considering how fast this things die, noone will just deploy and lose some hundreds of them daily. also the 10 mil price is at current material prices, if too many of this things die who knows how much will cost tomorrow...
what most likelly will happen will be that moons in low sec/npc 0.0 will become unprofitable for the large coalitions that live far from the area, so the residents will take control of them, and that in my humble opinion is a good thing for eve
|
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Schmata Bastanold
The brothers inc Brothers Of The Dark Sun
1034
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:55:00 -
[371] - Quote
This thread makes it very clear POSes supposed to be AFK money generators :) I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Pinky Hops
Rokh You like a Hurricane Nomads.
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:57:00 -
[372] - Quote
xttz wrote:You're absolutely right. There's no way our thousands of players and trillions of ISK will allow us to grief entire swathes of space alongside manipulating the T2 materials market for further gain. I mean it's not like we've ever made a fortune from broken game mechanics like this before, is it?
lol.
this assumes you can "make a fortune" by using these primarily as a grief mechanic.
i find this to be highly implausible.
IF you siphon every valuable moon in a region, AND it goes unnoticed...maybe you got ahead? somehow?
But with this drop and forget gameplay, you can bet your ass people will start noticing them fast, and at 10m cost, with nothing in return, it's almost surely not going to help you any.
For it to be a gain, the 10m siphon has to deal over 10m in economic damage, on average.
I find this unlikely.
If you want to waste ISK to grief people, there are plenty of other ways, such as suicide-killing freighters in highsec.....Except the difference there, is that suicide-killing freighters can actually be profitable. I don't think burning billions of ISK and getting nearly nothing in return will work to your advantage.
I can see it as a legitimate disruption tactic in nullsec -- but things are different there. Often the goal isn't to profit off of an attack, but to just hurt the other guy as much as possible.
If you want to throw away billions for no gain, go for it, the entire community will laugh at you....
And while they laugh, they will happily obliterate all your moon mining operations in your undefended, overgrown nullsec territory.
Can't wait for this patch. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
271
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:58:00 -
[373] - Quote
gascanu wrote:this is the first tool in a long time CCP give to small/medium alliances in npc 0.0 or low sec that will help them fight the large coalitions, and put a better defence of "their space"; .... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively. That being said, these siphons will far less effective than the panic-stricken Goons would like to make them out to be.
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5284
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:59:00 -
[374] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote: IF you siphon every valuable moon in a region, AND it goes unnoticed...maybe you got ahead? somehow?
i'd say "you'll see how" but you probably won't, you'll just assume the prices were supposed to do that |
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
409
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:00:00 -
[375] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:xttz wrote:You're absolutely right. There's no way our thousands of players and trillions of ISK will allow us to grief entire swathes of space alongside manipulating the T2 materials market for further gain. I mean it's not like we've ever made a fortune from broken game mechanics like this before, is it? lol. this assumes you can "make a fortune" by using these primarily as a grief mechanic. i find this to be highly implausible. IF you siphon every valuable moon in a region, AND it goes unnoticed...maybe you got ahead? somehow? But with this drop and forget gameplay, you can bet your ass people will start noticing them fast, and at 10m cost, with nothing in return, it's almost surely not going to help you any. For it to be a gain, the 10m siphon has to deal over 10m in economic damage, on average. I find this unlikely. If you want to waste ISK to grief people, there are plenty of other ways, such as suicide-killing freighters in highsec.....Except the difference there, is that suicide-killing freighters can actually be profitable. I don't think burning billions of ISK and getting nearly nothing in return will work to your advantage. I can see it as a legitimate disruption tactic in nullsec -- but things are different there. Often the goal isn't to profit off of an attack, but to just hurt the other guy as much as possible. If you want to throw away billions for no gain, go for it, the entire community will laugh at you.... And while they laugh, they will happily obliterate all your moon mining operations in your undefended, overgrown nullsec territory. Can't wait for this patch. On a dyspro moon you start making money after 5 hours, i guess large alliances will have to setup patrol schedules for their starbases :)
Coreli Corporation: Small gang PVP & Drug Production, Apply now! |
Pinky Hops
Rokh You like a Hurricane Nomads.
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:01:00 -
[376] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Pinky Hops wrote: IF you siphon every valuable moon in a region, AND it goes unnoticed...maybe you got ahead? somehow?
i'd say "you'll see how" but you probably won't, you'll just assume the prices were supposed to do that
the prices will definitely drop, mostly because the giant carebear alliances who supply 90%+ of the moon goo (of which goonswarm is one example) will see their operations crumble.
this will make it more worth it to moon mine in general, but people will have to do it carefully to make a good profit, not just plant a fuckload of moon mining ops and nearly forget about them....like goonswarm.....
|
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
932
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:01:00 -
[377] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:This thread makes it very clear POSes supposed to be AFK money generators :)
POSes are already ''Kill yourself'' levels of logistics nightmare. To set up a POS on a moon worth anything, you need to spend much ISK and be able to field multiple fleets.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
48
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:02:00 -
[378] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Tzar Sinak wrote:I do not think I am understanding this correctly.
I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away? POS guns are crap and even small ones take several seconds to lock anything. Warp disruption batteries take a lot longer thanks to a low (36mm) scan res. On top of that there's a random delay before they start shooting. You'll have no problem flying in, dropping one and leaving, or flying in, looting one and leaving, before you're in any danger from the POS, even if it's manned.
Seems to me that there is risk to deploying these things even if not a potent risk. I have not read anywhere in this thread a need to improve automated POS response times. Not likely to happen. |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
932
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:04:00 -
[379] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:mynnna wrote:Tzar Sinak wrote:I do not think I am understanding this correctly.
I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away? POS guns are crap and even small ones take several seconds to lock anything. Warp disruption batteries take a lot longer thanks to a low (36mm) scan res. On top of that there's a random delay before they start shooting. You'll have no problem flying in, dropping one and leaving, or flying in, looting one and leaving, before you're in any danger from the POS, even if it's manned. Seems to me that there is risk to deploying these things even if not a potent risk. I have not read anywhere in this thread a need to improve automated POS response times. Not likely to happen.
Covops haulers, bubble immune interceptors with covert cynos and a few black ops battleships to bridge around and entire region. A dedicated squad of maybe 10 guys can and will blanket all R64s in a region in less than an hour and for negligible cost.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Tiye Q
SOLAR MESSIAHS INC.
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:04:00 -
[380] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:MeBiatch wrote:this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.
the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy. Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you.
Not sure what I find more comical. The admission of a complaint in having to now monitor a passive source of income, or the fact that the CFC/GSF member also states they'll benefit financially, and yet somehow we're all supposed to believe that the CFC/GSF is raising the complaints and flaws in mechanics for the benefit of the greater good of EVE.
Simply amazing. Whatever intellectual Kool-Aid you guys are serving to your rank and file, please make sure you patent the formula.
|
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1298
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:05:00 -
[381] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:Weaselior wrote:Pinky Hops wrote: IF you siphon every valuable moon in a region, AND it goes unnoticed...maybe you got ahead? somehow?
i'd say "you'll see how" but you probably won't, you'll just assume the prices were supposed to do that the prices will definitely drop, mostly because the giant carebear alliances who supply 90%+ of the moon goo (of which goonswarm is one example) will see their operations crumble. this will make it more worth it to moon mine in general, but people will have to do it carefully to make a good profit, not just plant a fuckload of moon mining ops and nearly forget about them....like goonswarm.....
So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop.
This is some MD level analysis right here. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Zappity
Kurved Space
552
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:05:00 -
[382] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Aryth wrote:I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does. Indeed, and because of this I'm surprised that you've failed to see the potential for your alliance. As you say, your alliance will be much better placed to deal with the consequences than your competitors, while you also have a playerbase with the numbers and penchant for griefing that will be able to make full use of this module in hostile space. The siphon meshes perfectly with Goons' public philosophy. But remember, you don't need to check every POS, just use dscan. Hell, probes are probably even easier. You are assuming I haven't see how well it helps us. We have known for quite some time our endgame in T2. This only accelerates it and probably lines our pockets more than anyone's in EVE by far. We control most of the r64s and by extension the T2 market. I am telling CCP in good faith this is not balanced. This design is bad, if you go down this path it is bad for EVE. It doesn't mean it is bad for our wallet. The very nature of this change as presented pretty much assures we make more ISK because the people that do manage to control their goo will profit greatly. That will be us. This will become a mass manip tool not some individual guerrilla mechanic. You made things so cheap you don't even need to GET the goo, just spam and laugh as huge portions of supply dies.
You talk too much, Aryth. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1380
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:06:00 -
[383] - Quote
this is what i can gather goons will do...
they have a huge stock pile of moon mins
they know that even if the collect 0 of the mins there is going to be an automatic 20% loss just off the bat.
so that means they are going to try and reduce the moon mins by 20% which means that demand will go up and they have the supply...
so that is the only way i can see goons making loads of isk from this There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:06:00 -
[384] - Quote
Tiye Q wrote:Kismeteer wrote:MeBiatch wrote:this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.
the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy. Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you. Not sure what I find more comical. The admission of a complaint in having to now monitor a passive source of income, or the fact that the CFC/GSF member also states they'll benefit financially, and yet somehow we're all supposed to believe that the CFC/GSF is raising the complaints and flaws in mechanics for the benefit of the greater good of EVE.
Yes. We're already making mad money. We are warning you that this will help us make even more money and make you scream in impotent rage. We are telling you this because it is way more hilarious if you have actually been well and duly warned.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1944
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:06:00 -
[385] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:mynnna wrote:Tzar Sinak wrote:I do not think I am understanding this correctly.
I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away? POS guns are crap and even small ones take several seconds to lock anything. Warp disruption batteries take a lot longer thanks to a low (36mm) scan res. On top of that there's a random delay before they start shooting. You'll have no problem flying in, dropping one and leaving, or flying in, looting one and leaving, before you're in any danger from the POS, even if it's manned. Seems to me that there is risk to deploying these things even if not a potent risk. I have not read anywhere in this thread a need to improve automated POS response times. Not likely to happen.
Haha no sorry the only way there's risk is if you literally sit there and let the POS shoot you, or try to deploy these with a freighter. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Pinky Hops
Rokh You like a Hurricane Nomads.
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:06:00 -
[386] - Quote
i meant prices will go up obviously. ill edit it, just for you, because you can't understand context and how neither of those paragraphs make sense without flipping a single word.
there.
now you can respond (cry) to the actual post, instead of nit picking semantics.
boo hoo, goonswarm. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:07:00 -
[387] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:gascanu wrote:this is the first tool in a long time CCP give to small/medium alliances in npc 0.0 or low sec that will help them fight the large coalitions, and put a better defence of "their space"; .... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively. That being said, these siphons will far less effective than the panic-stricken Goons would like to make them out to be.
you faill to understand that atm the "small groups" have around 0(ZERO) R64 moons; given that, can you tell me how the "large groups" can use this tool to grief them? |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:09:00 -
[388] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:this is what i can gather goons will do...
they have a huge stock pile of moon mins
they know that even if the collect 0 of the mins there is going to be an automatic 20% loss just off the bat.
so that means they are going to try and reduce the moon mins by 20% which means that demand will go up and they have the supply...
so that is the only way i can see goons making loads of isk from this
Thanks for restating everything Aryth and Mynnna are already telling everyone.
If we mercilessly siphon every R64 moon in the universe that isn't ours, and we lose some R64s to enemy siphon, all while toying with the R64 markets since months ago, there's no way we aren't making trillions and annihilating affordable T2 prices.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
366
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:10:00 -
[389] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:.... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively.
Only if you're working under the dubious assumption that a small group is like a large group, but smaller. |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:10:00 -
[390] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Vladimir Norkoff wrote:gascanu wrote:this is the first tool in a long time CCP give to small/medium alliances in npc 0.0 or low sec that will help them fight the large coalitions, and put a better defence of "their space"; .... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively. That being said, these siphons will far less effective than the panic-stricken Goons would like to make them out to be. you faill to understand that atm the "small groups" have around 0(ZERO) R64 moons; given that, can you tell me how the "large groups" can use this tool to grief them?
We can double all the T2 ship prices.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
|
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:13:00 -
[391] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:gascanu wrote:Vladimir Norkoff wrote:gascanu wrote:this is the first tool in a long time CCP give to small/medium alliances in npc 0.0 or low sec that will help them fight the large coalitions, and put a better defence of "their space"; .... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively. That being said, these siphons will far less effective than the panic-stricken Goons would like to make them out to be. you faill to understand that atm the "small groups" have around 0(ZERO) R64 moons; given that, can you tell me how the "large groups" can use this tool to grief them? We can double all the T2 ship prices.
you can do that right now; |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:13:00 -
[392] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:I do not think I am understanding this correctly.
I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away?
Starbase weapons are a relic from the old days of EVE, when Dreadnoughts had 80k EHP and Tech 2 ships were flown by a small elite number of pilots.
They've never been reviewed since, so here are some interesting facts:
- The targeting delay on POS weapons allows anything battleship-sized (or smaller) time to land on grid, drop an item, and align out again before being targeted. Smaller guns may get off a volley, but they do about less DPS than a modern frigate so who cares. Webs and points cannot lock in time.
- With the warp speed changes in Rubicon, it will be possible for cruiser-sized ships and below to align out from a POS, warp to a gate and jump out of system before a starbase disruption battery could have time to lock them. Yep, the scan res is so bad on these things you can literally leave system before they lock you.
- Without using (very rare) faction weapons, a purely combat fit starbase will do less than 10,000dps, slightly above a single Dreadnought. This fit is exclusive to Amarr and Minmatar towers, as POS hybrid and missile weapons do less than half this damage.
In order to do this much damage, all the modules need to be operated in advance by several people in place ahead of time and focusing on a single target. They will then sit there and wait 30-40secs for the guns to lock, while hoping the target doesn't just warp out.
gascanu wrote:
you faill to understand that atm the "small groups" have around 0(ZERO) R64 moons; given that, can you tell me how the "large groups" can use this tool to grief them?
Because there are plenty of small groups who simply buy those r64's in Jita and react them into more advanced materials required for T2.
Dropping a mining tower on an r64 moon doesn't automatically spit out T2 ships you know. There are several steps in the process and this new feature happily disrupts the most basic levels, affecting everyone up the chain.
|
Uppsy Daisy
Perkone Caldari State
548
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:14:00 -
[393] - Quote
Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop.
The siphons do not destroy minerals.
They are freely lootable.
Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:16:00 -
[394] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop. The siphons do not destroy minerals. They are freely lootable. Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first.
Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Jones Bones
Broski North Black Legion.
128
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:16:00 -
[395] - Quote
Drone Assist and now Siphons.
Why so serious Goonies? You used to be such fun loving bees. Now you're the guy in the suit and tie who drinks dark coffee every morning and complains about "kids these days". So sad |
Gossamer DT
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
103
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:17:00 -
[396] - Quote
This is great, I now have a peace time hobby for my tengu/crane/widow crew.
Lets see crane cargo 9,405.9 so fits about 470 siphons, no limit to the number I can drop on a tower, have a list of moons check, this is going to be epic!!! I figure 50 per tower (just to be safe, want to make sure they last a while), and that gives me 20 spares to pop back and replace for the aggressive locals.
I love you CCP best Idea ever! who is your main, and what does he do? |
Uppsy Daisy
Perkone Caldari State
549
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:17:00 -
[397] - Quote
Querns wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop. The siphons do not destroy minerals. They are freely lootable. Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first. Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal
Yes! Shame on me. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5292
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:17:00 -
[398] - Quote
I mean I think I've made my point: we're arguing with people who don't have the faintest grasp of any of the underlying systems like dr "less moongoo harvested means prices drop" economics, so I'm going to repeat myself once and then stop responding to people who can barely manage to string together two sentences, most of which is misspelled.
The system itself could be neat when siphon costs aren't a rounding error, but the system is poorly balanced as it is because there's no cost to losing a siphon. In addition, being able to chain two siphons to nuke the entire output is not well balanced and that should be looked at. Lastly, alchemy being immune throws things off. Presumably this is because it produces one unit an hour. That should be changed to producing 200 units an hour, and requiring 200 to refine. They can even be .005m3 so that nothing changes size-wise.
Those three things should be looked at and corrected before (not after) they are introduced. Especially the cost, as you say you'll fix it later if it's unbalanced - but you won't, because you won't want to run the risk of people speculatively hording beforehand. |
Gossamer DT
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
103
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:18:00 -
[399] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop. The siphons do not destroy minerals. They are freely lootable. Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first.
reading is hard they say
Siphon units also have a waste factor (assumed to be lost in transit). This wastes (destroys) a portion of what is stolen. The waste factor for the Small Mobile Siphon Unit is 20%. who is your main, and what does he do? |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:18:00 -
[400] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Vladimir Norkoff wrote:.... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively.
Only if you're working under the dubious assumption that a small group is like a large group, but smaller.
The smallest group with any amount of relevance is probably RnK, and even then they mostly run gimmick ops.
Smaller groups will go bankrupt from losing haulers and equipment trying to siphon some materials from us. We're going to heavily subsidize screwing with enemy R64s thanks to our other sources of income and market manipulation. You're all going to have to learn to cope.
As people have mentioned in this very thread, we can in fact field entire fleets of 100m isk suicide battlecruisers. We could get 2500 siphons for the price of one Tornado fleet. That's more than two for each R64 moon we don't own. You're welcome.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
|
Schmata Bastanold
The brothers inc Brothers Of The Dark Sun
1034
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:18:00 -
[401] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:POSes are already ''Kill yourself'' levels of logistics nightmare. To set up a POS on a moon worth anything, you need to spend much ISK and be able to field multiple fleets.
Nobody is forcing anybody to have POS unless you live in w-space.
So maybe switch to something more fun if this activity is sooooo terrible? I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
203
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:18:00 -
[402] - Quote
Why do any of you think this will hurt Goonswarm?
First off, Goonswarm easily has the leadership capability, player willingness, and financial fortitude to use this as a viable price fixing/alliance crushing tactic.
Second, as I explained early, only the most daft people would think that you're going to make tonnes of isk why you make the "evil empire pay". There is some profitability potential, but it is a LOT of work coupled with a lot of luck. Maybe the medium and larger sizes will change that, but I doubt it will without a lot of mechanics changes.
The ONLY way this could possibly hurt goonswarm while at the same time not make it be worthwhile for them to use it "en masse" would be limit one per POS. If it was limited to one, the risk/reward value of trying to massive land thousands of Siphons would be both organizationally extensive and ultimately unprofitable and fail to dent either enemy incomes or effectively manipulate moon goo dispersement.
The more I think about it, the more I think CCP didn't give the little guy an advantage, they gave the biggest guy on the block the Eve equivilent of the Death Star.
He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1299
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:20:00 -
[403] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Querns wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop. The siphons do not destroy minerals. They are freely lootable. Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first. Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal Yes! Shame on me.
Scene: There is an obelisk, it is black, you have fur. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
77
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:20:00 -
[404] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Marlona Sky wrote: Or... you could actually occupy the space you decide to deploy assets in with other players from your corp, alliance, coalition?
Well, for starters, you've thought this feature through and read how it works so poorly you were outraged at a post telling you exactly what you wanted to hear. But the point is this doesn't reward "occupying" your space. It requires manually checking your pos every few hours. If there's 20 people ratting in that system nonstop it's not actually stopping someone from siphoning.
Nothing is stopping one of those 20 people from using D-scan to see that a siphon has been dropped and then warp over and collect the goods.
Anyone can take from the siphon. So when you see them around your friendly POS warp over, collect and kill the syphon. What, is this mythical Viator gonna kill you with amazing hauler DPS? An interceptor can't collect the goods since it's cargo bay is too small.
Mostly I see AFK, large space holding but not space using Alliances (aka goonswarm) complaining that they will have to use their space to keep track of their AFK income.
|
Pinky Hops
Rokh You like a Hurricane Nomads.
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:21:00 -
[405] - Quote
So basically here is how I interpret this whole situation:
1) Goonswarm feel rightly threatened because people will just walk into their undefended territory and **** over their POS mining operations
2) Goonswarm QQ's for 20 pages
3) Goonswarm announces that they can do more damage than can be done to them...Basically they are saying they will burn the whole world with the same tool that will burn them....
So 3) makes me laugh. Goonswarm has a lot of players, but they certainly don''t have the ISK to sustainably do what they are proposing.
Some minor scratchpaper math shows that for them to even put a minor dent, they would have to spend TRILLIONS of ISK, and then the question is:
Does the raise in profitability from their own moon goo operations offset their spending trillions of ISK on on siphons?
Unlikely -- especially considering their own operations will be far less efficient. |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
184
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:21:00 -
[406] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:Why so serious Goonies? You used to be such fun loving bees. Now you're the guy in the suit and tie who drinks dark coffee every morning and complains about "kids these days". So sad
We're more like the mischievous youth telling our parents "hey you know that box of fireworks you have there... it's probably not a good idea to let me have it" |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:23:00 -
[407] - Quote
xttz wrote:
Because there are plenty of small groups who simply buy those r64's in Jita and react them into more advanced materials required for T2.
.
are you trying to say that buying r64 in jita is more profitable for those "small groups" than mining it themself from the moons in the region they live? really?
|
Uppsy Daisy
Perkone Caldari State
549
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:23:00 -
[408] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Querns wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop. The siphons do not destroy minerals. They are freely lootable. Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first. Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal Yes! Shame on me. Scene: There is an obelisk, it is black, you have fur.
Hmmmm, this bone.... it looks..... like a club!!
With this I can defeat the evil Goonz! |
Huttan Funaila
Terminal Radioactivity Spaceship Samurai
214
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:24:00 -
[409] - Quote
Berluth Luthian wrote:I don't really do moon harvesting, but is there not a way to see what gets put in your silos via the API? If so, a simple tool that is showing expected vs. actual output could be a really easy alarm system. Yes. Except it is going to lie to you: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3749179#post3749179 |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1338
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:24:00 -
[410] - Quote
gascanu wrote:are you trying to say that buying r64 in jita is more profitable for those "small groups" than mining it themself from the moons in the region they live? really?
"Small groups" don't own R64s. And even in the hypothetical unlikely scenario of a moon being siphoned 24/7, large alliances would still hold R64s - if not for the income, then to deny the income to anybody else. |
|
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:27:00 -
[411] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:
So 3) makes me laugh. Goonswarm has a lot of players, but they certainly don''t have the ISK to sustainably do what they are proposing.
Some minor scratchpaper math shows that for them to even put a minor dent, they would have to spend TRILLIONS of ISK, and then the question is:
Does the raise in profitability from their own moon goo operations offset their spending trillions of ISK on on siphons?
Unlikely -- especially considering their own operations will be far less efficient.
3) Hahahahahahahahahahaha
Your math: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Mister McDerp
University of Caille Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:27:00 -
[412] - Quote
Which is imho the worst about all of this. Literally so badly thought out they have to make the API scew us over |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:29:00 -
[413] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Querns wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop. The siphons do not destroy minerals. They are freely lootable. Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first. Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal Yes! Shame on me. Scene: There is an obelisk, it is black, you have fur.
Am I supposed to be holding a bone This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
184
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:30:00 -
[414] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote: So 3) makes me laugh. Goonswarm has a lot of players, but they certainly don''t have the ISK to sustainably do what they are proposing.
These things are so cheap I have enough personal ISK to run around and drop 5 siphons on every single r64 in the game. And I'm not even rich.
What do you think our small group of guys who suicide billions of isk a day ganking hi-sec freighters will do with this feature? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:30:00 -
[415] - Quote
I guess it's technically cartilage This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
271
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:31:00 -
[416] - Quote
gascanu wrote:you faill to understand that atm the "small groups" have around 0(ZERO) R64 moons; given that, can you tell me how the "large groups" can use this tool to grief them? Well let's just pretend that these siphons will actually be cost-effective and useful. Assuming that, your little crap alliance goes and drops some on a big alliance's valuable moons - and they have ALOT of moons. The impact is a small percentage of their moon income, while they can turn around and drop siphons on your relatively miniscule amount of crap moons taking ALL your moon income. And they actually have the manpower to keep the siphons maintained. So yeah, big alliances would be more effective with mythical awesome siphons.
Fortunately the siphons will not be awesome. They are overpriced for their function and the amount of effort involved - a siphon essentially does nothing if the POS owner just unloads his moongoo from the siphon. And the only way you can prevent that is to constantly watch the siphon. Which is far too much effort for the amount of return. |
Pinky Hops
Rokh You like a Hurricane Nomads.
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:33:00 -
[417] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:
So 3) makes me laugh. Goonswarm has a lot of players, but they certainly don''t have the ISK to sustainably do what they are proposing.
Some minor scratchpaper math shows that for them to even put a minor dent, they would have to spend TRILLIONS of ISK, and then the question is:
Does the raise in profitability from their own moon goo operations offset their spending trillions of ISK on on siphons?
Unlikely -- especially considering their own operations will be far less efficient.
3) Hahahahahahahahahahaha Your math: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
start filling it in
1) how many do you need to plant to just negatively affect a single tiny region, let alone a meaningful amount of total area
2) how often will they be discovered/eliminated
3) how much ISK per day does it cost to maintain a sustained large attack
keep going, and yes, the numbers add up hilariously fast. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1381
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:33:00 -
[418] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:MeBiatch wrote:this is what i can gather goons will do...
they have a huge stock pile of moon mins
they know that even if the collect 0 of the mins there is going to be an automatic 20% loss just off the bat.
so that means they are going to try and reduce the moon mins by 20% which means that demand will go up and they have the supply...
so that is the only way i can see goons making loads of isk from this Thanks for restating everything Aryth and Mynnna are already telling everyone. If we mercilessly siphon every R64 moon in the universe that isn't ours, and we lose some R64s to enemy siphon, all while toying with the R64 markets since months ago, there's no way we aren't making trillions and annihilating affordable T2 prices.
well if they get rid of the 20% loss then that would put a dent into your nefarious plans.
moreover alchamy poses will increase invalue because you cant shyper them...
i plan on getting stupid rich with you guys... cheers! There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:33:00 -
[419] - Quote
There are maybe a few hundred R64 moons we don't own.
Let's say there a a thousand of them.
That's still only 20 bil to put two siphons on each. I could bankroll that and I'm basically a newbie. Jewbal-level 1%ers can buy enough siphons to do this hundreds of times. So can our socialist alliance.
This is chump change. It costs even less if we aim at only one type of moon mineral at once.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:33:00 -
[420] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:gascanu wrote:are you trying to say that buying r64 in jita is more profitable for those "small groups" than mining it themself from the moons in the region they live? really?
"Small groups" don't own R64s. And even in the hypothetical unlikely scenario of a R64 moon owned by a large alliance being siphoned 24/7, large alliances would still hold R64s - if not for the income, then to deny the income to anybody else.
umm, you contradict yourself: |
|
Callduron
Corporate Scum Northern Associates.
533
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:34:00 -
[421] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.
Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.
This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs.
Ha ha , is that your plan? Pass the pain on to your renters?
These siphons look amazing fun and it'll be great to see how they play out. The fact that people with a vested interest in reactions are so busy panicking suggests it's a good feature even before it's gone live. CAOD: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1947
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:35:00 -
[422] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:MeBiatch wrote:this is what i can gather goons will do...
they have a huge stock pile of moon mins
they know that even if the collect 0 of the mins there is going to be an automatic 20% loss just off the bat.
so that means they are going to try and reduce the moon mins by 20% which means that demand will go up and they have the supply...
so that is the only way i can see goons making loads of isk from this Thanks for restating everything Aryth and Mynnna are already telling everyone. If we mercilessly siphon every R64 moon in the universe that isn't ours, and we lose some R64s to enemy siphon, all while toying with the R64 markets since months ago, there's no way we aren't making trillions and annihilating affordable T2 prices. well if they get rid of the 20% loss then that would put a dent into your nefarious plans. moreover alchamy poses will increase invalue because you cant shyper them... i plan on getting stupid rich with you guys... cheers!
Contrary to all the whining from the poors about how moons are some hugely valuable and completely AFK wealth generator, they are in fact a wealth generator that would make a newbie in highsec laugh. A moon generates 100 units per hour. Right now, Dysprosium is the most valuable mineral in the game, at about 50k per unit. Go ahead, do the math on the hourly income, then calculate 60% of that. I'll wait. When you find that number, that's your take for dropping one.
Basically, I'm saying you ain't getting rich on these, kid.
Callduron wrote:Aryth wrote:I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.
Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.
This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs. Ha ha , is that your plan? Pass the pain on to your renters? These siphons look amazing fun and it'll be great to see how they play out. The fact that people with a vested interest in reactions are so busy panicking suggests it's a good feature even before it's gone live. We have a vested interest in moon mining. I actually feel bad for reactors, since that's almost always a personal income thing, not an alliance income thing. It's a pretty decent example of a field on a farm in the farms & fields concept, and CCP is coming along and salting it. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
934
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:36:00 -
[423] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:
So 3) makes me laugh. Goonswarm has a lot of players, but they certainly don''t have the ISK to sustainably do what they are proposing.
Some minor scratchpaper math shows that for them to even put a minor dent, they would have to spend TRILLIONS of ISK, and then the question is:
Does the raise in profitability from their own moon goo operations offset their spending trillions of ISK on on siphons?
Unlikely -- especially considering their own operations will be far less efficient.
3) Hahahahahahahahahahaha Your math: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha start filling it in 1) how many do you need to plant to just negatively affect a single tiny region, let alone a meaningful amount of total area 2) how often will they be discovered/eliminated 3) how much ISK per day does it cost to maintain a sustained large attack keep going, and yes, the numbers add up hilariously fast.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/region/moons
Count for yourself.
1) Number of R64s times two.
2) Don't care, they're is always more and they can't check their POSes every hour of the day.
3) A few hundred million isk per region at most. It's trivial.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1383
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:36:00 -
[424] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:Drone Assist and now Siphons. Why so serious Goonies? You used to be such fun loving bees. Now you're the guy in the suit and tie who drinks dark coffee every morning and complains about "kids these days". So sad
well not only did they kill bob they became bob...
they are even bragging how they will through thier renters under the bus with shyphon alts... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:36:00 -
[425] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:There are maybe a few hundred R64 moons we don't own.
Let's say there a a thousand of them.
That's still only 20 bil to put two siphons on each. I could bankroll that and I'm basically a newbie. Jewbal-level 1%ers can buy enough siphons to do this hundreds of times. So can our socialist alliance.
This is chump change. It costs even less if we aim at only one type of moon mineral at once.
they can die by the hundreds on a single moon too |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1109
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:37:00 -
[426] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:If you want siphons to promote PvP, and not terrible log-in-every-3-hours "gameplay", make them
a) invulnerable to POS guns (even manned) b) send a mail to POS owner when anchored.
That way you know when an enemy sets them up in your space, and you have to put together a response fleet to take them down or lose income. As an attacker you can use them to bait defenders into a fight they can't just avoid (or they lose moongoo).
Nope
If you want the Siphon Unit to generate Fights you need a timer mechanic, so that the game dictates the time when the package full of juicy stuff can be picked up
a response fleet that just kills siphon units is nothing but smallscale structure grinding and incredibly boring.
a much better implementation of the siphon idea would be something like this:
1: deploy siphon unit 2: invulnerable siphon unit steals from tower for X hours. X can be influenced by the POS owner 3: after X hours, the siphon unit turns into a package full of juicy stuff after that time 4.1: only tower owner shows up - kills the unit, loots the package and gets his stuff (minus the waste) back 4.2: only siphon unit owner shows up - he loots the package and successfully stole from the tower owner 4.3: both partys show up - fight is possible 4.4: all the above + eventual third partys - multitude of possible scenarios
either way, the POS owner, the siphon owner and possible third parties all have strong incentives to actually show up. We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Pinky Hops
Rokh You like a Hurricane Nomads.
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:37:00 -
[427] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:There are maybe a few hundred R64 moons we don't own.
Let's say there a a thousand of them.
That's still only 20 bil to put two siphons on each. I could bankroll that and I'm basically a newbie. Jewbal-level 1%ers can buy enough siphons to do this hundreds of times. So can our socialist alliance.
This is chump change. It costs even less if we aim at only one type of moon mineral at once.
except there are hidden costs:
1) lost ships
2) you're being 100% naive, but this is excusable, since you are self-admittedly a newbie. nobody is just going to let you walk over to the other half of the universe and perma-siphon their moons. See 1)
3) whatever time you are spending doing this could be spent doing nearly anything else, most of which is probably more profitable and more impactful on the economy than trying to shut off 20% of a moon 40 jumps away, even if you succeed...See 2)
basically: good luck to you...rofl |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
389
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:38:00 -
[428] - Quote
Loving the tears here. Now POS owners will actually have to be in their space expending considerable effort to maintain their holdings.
Own a few regions worth of moons? Better have the manpower and will to check them each day every day. It should never have required less.
Well done CCP. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1947
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:38:00 -
[429] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:If you want siphons to promote PvP, and not terrible log-in-every-3-hours "gameplay", make them
a) invulnerable to POS guns (even manned) b) send a mail to POS owner when anchored.
That way you know when an enemy sets them up in your space, and you have to put together a response fleet to take them down or lose income. As an attacker you can use them to bait defenders into a fight they can't just avoid (or they lose moongoo). Nope If you want the Siphon Unit to generate Fights you need a timer mechanic, so that the game dictates the time when the package full of juicy stuff can be picked up a response fleet that just kills siphon units is nothing but smallscale structure grinding and incredibly boring. a much better implementation of the siphon idea would be something like this: 1: deploy siphon unit 2: invulnerable siphon unit steals from tower for X hours. X can be influenced by the POS owner 3: after X hours, the siphon unit turns into a package full of juicy stuff after that time 4.1: only tower owner shows up - kills the unit, loots the package and gets his stuff (minus the waste) back 4.2: only siphon unit owner shows up - he loots the package and successfully stole from the tower owner 4.3: both partys show up - fight is possible 4.4: all the above + eventual third partys - multitude of possible scenarios either way, the POS owner, the siphon owner and possible third parties all have strong incentives to actually show up.
Look at all these goonie tea
wait I made that joke already. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
934
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:39:00 -
[430] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:There are maybe a few hundred R64 moons we don't own.
Let's say there a a thousand of them.
That's still only 20 bil to put two siphons on each. I could bankroll that and I'm basically a newbie. Jewbal-level 1%ers can buy enough siphons to do this hundreds of times. So can our socialist alliance.
This is chump change. It costs even less if we aim at only one type of moon mineral at once. they can die by the hundreds on a single moon too
You do know we have spent literally 100+ billion isk on suicide ships over one weekend in the past, right?
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
|
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
474
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:40:00 -
[431] - Quote
TBH i have to say that Goonies are right on few points. The siphons are not that cost effective. Siphons: - Should cost less (like 1 million) - Be able to steal resources of our choosing (even from the silo) - Be able to steal reactions from the start
This would be the right balance. CCP please take note. Siphons are not worht as they are now. They need buffs from the go. BALEX is recruiting -----> tinyurl.com/oscmmlv |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4762
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:40:00 -
[432] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:I mean I think I've made my point: we're arguing with people who don't have the faintest grasp of any of the underlying systems like dr "less moongoo harvested means prices drop" economics, so I'm going to repeat myself once and then stop responding to people who can barely manage to string together two sentences, most of which is misspelled.
The system itself could be neat when siphon costs aren't a rounding error, but the system is poorly balanced as it is because there's no cost to losing a siphon. In addition, being able to chain two siphons to nuke the entire output is not well balanced and that should be looked at. Lastly, alchemy being immune throws things off. Presumably this is because it produces one unit an hour. That should be changed to producing 200 units an hour, and requiring 200 to refine. They can even be .005m3 so that nothing changes size-wise.
Those three things should be looked at and corrected before (not after) they are introduced. Especially the cost, as you say you'll fix it later if it's unbalanced - but you won't, because you won't want to run the risk of people speculatively hording beforehand. Those three things could be adjusted as you say and the system would still work well I think, although I think that alchemy being immune is actually good thing for now. It will boost the use of alchemy setups and they will also be more profitable than before because, yes, prices will likely go up. Later, if you want to put alchemy set ups at risk as well you'll need to get the right equipment to do so and target them specifically.
My only point is that the grief tactics you describe to help make your otherwise valid points are more than impractical for long term use... even with your reserves of manpower and money.
How long will you and your pilots be content becoming exactly what you despise? Farmers that spend large amounts of time grinding ISK... which is exactly what you will be.
Yes, you can hit every R64 moon, and likely lose them all in the first day as they are trivially easy to find and destroy. So you repeat the process the next day, and the next, and the next... usually not actually getting anything directly for your efforts (although prices are still going to rise and you WILL profit from that).
Basically, you'll be spending your time farming ISK... much of which will actually go into the pocket of those smart enough to raid your siphons whenever they see them. This is a good thing for EVE actually, as it spreads the wealth around and creates a new mini profession.
Of course that profession is essentially farming goons siphons, which I could see you not being to terribly happy about. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5292
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:40:00 -
[433] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:There are maybe a few hundred R64 moons we don't own.
Let's say there a a thousand of them.
That's still only 20 bil to put two siphons on each. I could bankroll that and I'm basically a newbie. Jewbal-level 1%ers can buy enough siphons to do this hundreds of times. So can our socialist alliance.
This is chump change. It costs even less if we aim at only one type of moon mineral at once. except there are hidden costs: 1) lost ships 2) you're being 100% naive, but this is excusable, since you are self-admittedly a newbie. nobody is just going to let you walk over to the other half of the universe and perma-siphon their moons. See 1) 3) whatever time you are spending doing this could be spent doing nearly anything else, most of which is probably more profitable and more impactful on the economy than trying to shut off 20% of a moon 40 jumps away, even if you succeed...See 2) basically: good luck to you...rofl could you do the math on how your hidden costs add up to 980b
wait you said trillions
1980b |
Zappity
Kurved Space
552
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:42:00 -
[434] - Quote
A comment on the goon renter plans.
The plan to distribute the valuable moons to the renters and make it their problem seems like a knee-jerk reaction which is surprising. The value of moons in the presence of these new units will be devalued relative to current and I doubt that renters will pay 'whatever you tell them', at least after a couple of months have passed.
Second, this would leave you entirely open to economic attack. If you rely solely on rental income, what prevents PBLRD as a bloc from ceasing rental payments and pocketing the moon goo income? Their own revenue stream would be unaffected and I doubt you have the firepower, in the absence of both moon revenue and rental income, to subdue them all in time. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Zappity
Kurved Space
552
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:43:00 -
[435] - Quote
1. CCP, make the units percentage based and apply a stacking penalty. In their current iteration these will just be dropped to prevent harvesting rather than for theft.
2. CCP, you really need to fix AFK cloaking along with this. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
834
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:43:00 -
[436] - Quote
Quote: The name of the player that deployed the siphon unit is visible in Show Info.
Now this is something I don't like at all.
Lets pretend I need to buy a new leviathan and decide that Mynnna will pay for it, but Mynnna refuses!!!
but since I know where is 80 poses reaction farm is located I decided to go to his ATM machines and make a isk redraw from it, but my name is thing...
...
In a more serious note and realist use case, I'm a spy in enemy alliance and move with no problem in their systems, how can I steal my enemy if I leave a finger print everywhere?
Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-) |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
934
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:43:00 -
[437] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:There are maybe a few hundred R64 moons we don't own.
Let's say there a a thousand of them.
That's still only 20 bil to put two siphons on each. I could bankroll that and I'm basically a newbie. Jewbal-level 1%ers can buy enough siphons to do this hundreds of times. So can our socialist alliance.
This is chump change. It costs even less if we aim at only one type of moon mineral at once. except there are hidden costs: 1) lost ships 2) you're being 100% naive, but this is excusable, since you are self-admittedly a newbie. nobody is just going to let you walk over to the other half of the universe and perma-siphon their moons. See 1) 3) whatever time you are spending doing this could be spent doing nearly anything else, most of which is probably more profitable and more impactful on the economy than trying to shut off 20% of a moon 40 jumps away, even if you succeed...See 2) basically: good luck to you...rofl
Covert ops haulers. Black ops bridges. Bubble immune interceptors. It's going to be trivial to not lose ships. Set up the siphons when no one is in local. The perfect crime.
Don't assume goon newbies are harmless. That would quite simply be moronic. We're part of the lever that lifts the universe (and the T2 prices)
We can shut off 100% of a moon, 20% is what is lost irrevocably even if we fail at siphoning.
Most people have separate combat and ratting alts. That said, I don't think ratting will be more profitable than this. We'll see.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Schmata Bastanold
The brothers inc Brothers Of The Dark Sun
1034
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:44:00 -
[438] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Contrary to all the whining from the poors about how moons are some hugely valuable and completely AFK wealth generator, they are in fact a wealth generator that would make a newbie in highsec laugh.
Yeah, they are worthless and that is why you have alarm clock CTA in this thread.
Better go write some minutes.
I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1338
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:44:00 -
[439] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Second, this would leave you entirely open to economic attack. If you rely solely on rental income, what prevents PBLRD as a bloc from ceasing rental payments and pocketing the moon goo income? Their own revenue stream would be unaffected and I doubt you have the firepower, in the absence of both moon revenue and rental income, to subdue them all in time. This would be probably the most hilarious thing to happen to EVE since goons forgot to pay their sov bill. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:45:00 -
[440] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:gascanu wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:There are maybe a few hundred R64 moons we don't own.
Let's say there a a thousand of them.
That's still only 20 bil to put two siphons on each. I could bankroll that and I'm basically a newbie. Jewbal-level 1%ers can buy enough siphons to do this hundreds of times. So can our socialist alliance.
This is chump change. It costs even less if we aim at only one type of moon mineral at once. they can die by the hundreds on a single moon too You do know we have spent literally 100+ billion isk on suicide ships over one weekend in the past, right?
oh the good old days...
i also remember some CEO starting a war over some moons worth less that 100bil/month, and considering that some sorth of vital income or something...
|
|
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:47:00 -
[441] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: How long will you and your pilots be content becoming exactly what you despise? Farmers that spend large amounts of time grinding ISK... which is exactly what you will be.
Alright let's just play mythbusters here.
The pope ***** and trees make sound when they fall in the wods.
Goons already farm ISK and rat, and are exceedingly efficient at it.
Then we use that ISK to fund fun stuff.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Sven Viko VIkolander
Stay Frosty.
93
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:47:00 -
[442] - Quote
So far as I am understanding this issue :
1) It seems very unlikely that any use of the siphons, by itself, is going to cause a large rise in T2 ship cost. More likely, market speculation and direct manipulation of prices (e.g. by the goons) is going to cause fluctuation in the prices, if anything.
2) Why do people care if large entities like the goonsperg get massively richer off changes? Even the FW exploit didn't mess up the economy enough for the average player to notice/care much.
3) That said, the siphons seem like they could be most useful for very small and/or solo players living in fairly uninhabited space with a hostile moon mining POS in system. Pop a few siphons down overnight and collect a few dozen million isk before someone wastes some time coming out to the boonies to clean them up. That's not going to hurt most POS owners, but for the solo or small gang group it is a nice bit of isk, and it helps them.
Am I missing something? |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1304
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:47:00 -
[443] - Quote
Zappity wrote:A comment on the goon renter plans.
The plan to distribute the valuable moons to the renters and make it their problem seems like a knee-jerk reaction which is surprising. The value of moons in the presence of these new units will be devalued relative to current and I doubt that renters will pay 'whatever you tell them', at least after a couple of months have passed.
Second, this would leave you entirely open to economic attack. If you rely solely on rental income, what prevents PBLRD as a bloc from ceasing rental payments and pocketing the moon goo income? Their own revenue stream would be unaffected and I doubt you have the firepower, in the absence of both moon revenue and rental income, to subdue them all in time.
Say what. You really have no idea how renters work do you? Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:49:00 -
[444] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Second, this would leave you entirely open to economic attack. If you rely solely on rental income, what prevents PBLRD as a bloc from ceasing rental payments and pocketing the moon goo income? Their own revenue stream would be unaffected and I doubt you have the firepower, in the absence of both moon revenue and rental income, to subdue them all in time.
I don't know, the fact that we control PBLRD and will kick/remove docking rights/come down like the fist of an angry god on any corp that gets uppity and tries to be spartacus?
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1947
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:49:00 -
[445] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Zappity wrote:A comment on the goon renter plans.
The plan to distribute the valuable moons to the renters and make it their problem seems like a knee-jerk reaction which is surprising. The value of moons in the presence of these new units will be devalued relative to current and I doubt that renters will pay 'whatever you tell them', at least after a couple of months have passed.
Second, this would leave you entirely open to economic attack. If you rely solely on rental income, what prevents PBLRD as a bloc from ceasing rental payments and pocketing the moon goo income? Their own revenue stream would be unaffected and I doubt you have the firepower, in the absence of both moon revenue and rental income, to subdue them all in time. Say what. You really have no idea how renters work do you?
He seems to think that renters would, overnight, turn themselves into a unified cohesive bloc with all the normal organization, drive and tools that a real alliance does, and declare themselves independent from us.
So no, he really doesn't have any idea how renters work. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
416
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:49:00 -
[446] - Quote
Zappity wrote:1. CCP, make the units percentage based and apply a stacking penalty. In their current iteration these will just be dropped to prevent harvesting rather than for theft.
2. CCP, you really need to fix AFK cloaking along with this.
You realize, of course, that at 100 units per hour production, arguing for a percentage adjustment is basically no different from saying "I think it should be X value instead of Y."
Because percent.
per centum - look it up. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
835
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:52:00 -
[447] - Quote
another thing I also don't agree is the compression ratio used for the ciphon.
so a small siphon size is 20m3 and can fit 1200m3, but a pos silo size is 4000m3 and can fit 20000m3...
a pos silo is 1 to 5 ration a siphon is a 1 to 60 !!!!
c'mon this is totally wrong.
please review the syphon size so similar things have similar sizes vs cargo holds ratios! it doesn't need to have the same similar ratio to size number, but it should be more closer than it is at this moment.
I suggest 50m3 for siphons if you compromise dropping silos to 2000m3. Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-) |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4762
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:54:00 -
[448] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: How long will you and your pilots be content becoming exactly what you despise? Farmers that spend large amounts of time grinding ISK... which is exactly what you will be.
Alright let's just play mythbusters here. The pope ***** and trees make sound when they fall in the wods. Goons already farm ISK and rat, and are exceedingly efficient at it. Then we use that ISK to fund fun stuff. Except now your troops will be spending their normal ratting time dropping siphons or collecting from them... and since most of the time they won't be collecting anything worthwhile even from those few siphons that survive they will have to spend what would have been their "fun" time trying to rat their daily bread.
Look, I'm hugely in favor of the goons being able to exploit this to one degree or another... but as much as you are insisting otherwise I'm pretty sure you'll find more effective ways to do it than what you are proposing. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
460
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:54:00 -
[449] - Quote
For all those thinking that 'lol they'll have to check their towers', sure, we can do that. We have 10,000 other people to help too. And it can be anyone in our coalition too. It's not like jumping into system and dscanning is hard, especially with the interceptor changes.
Or we can just pay people to drop these, for nearly nothing, on different groups and then hot drop them when they're killing them. But if they use pos guns, and only controlling MAX 5 guns, that would take some time. And we know people hate grinding structures, but we generally love it.
It's a bad implementation and CCP should feel bad. |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
461
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:54:00 -
[450] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:
Still not seeing this working as an effective grief tool, or even as an effective market manipulation device.
This video will explain it.
|
|
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:55:00 -
[451] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: How long will you and your pilots be content becoming exactly what you despise? Farmers that spend large amounts of time grinding ISK... which is exactly what you will be.
Alright let's just play mythbusters here. The pope ***** and trees make sound when they fall in the wods. Goons already farm ISK and rat, and are exceedingly efficient at it. Then we use that ISK to fund fun stuff. Except now your troops will be spending their normal ratting time dropping siphons or collecting from them... and since most of the time they won't be collecting anything worthwhile even from those few siphons that survive they will have to spend what would have been their "fun" time trying to rat their daily bread. Look, I'm hugely in favor of the goons being able to exploit this to one degree or another... but as much as you are insisting otherwise I'm pretty sure you'll find more effective ways to do it than what you are proposing.
Except alts.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1383
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:55:00 -
[452] - Quote
mynnna wrote: Contrary to all the whining from the poors about how moons are some hugely valuable and completely AFK wealth generator, they are in fact a wealth generator that would make a newbie in highsec laugh. A moon generates 100 units per hour. Right now, Dysprosium is the most valuable mineral in the game, at about 50k per unit. Go ahead, do the math on the hourly income, then calculate 60% of that. I'll wait. When you find that number, that's your take for dropping one.
Basically, I'm saying you ain't getting rich on these, kid.
yes one moon is worth not that much but many are... and from what i understand you guys have 100's of moon mining poses. so it does add up. though not as much as it used to be.
1. from what i understand you will tsf most of the moon poses to renters and leaving the defence in thier hands but increasing thier rent to offset. (a win win in your eyes)
2. I personally plan on syphoning your renters poses as i am making an assumption not all of them will protect thier poses. something goons said are fine with aslong as the bills are paid.
3. you guys stated that you will be setting up shyphon units in non cfc space to reduce output by 20%
4. you also said you have massive holding of said moon minerals and will be selling them for a healthy profit
5. i plan on slight margin trading that value from stolen pos mins thus taking advanatge of your plan and a healthy income.
6. personally i already have enough isk to sustain myself but will be more then happy to "chew the fat" and harass renters doing it. I mean renters can be babies and if they start loosing lots of isk they will want you guys to come and protect them... towhich you guys admit are reliant on renter income to continue your reinbursement policy. its going to be interesting how long the goon/renter dynamic lasts for before goons rage and purge said renters. Lather rinse repeat anyone?
7. if ccp just removed the 20% loss of units from the shyphon mechanic your plans would be eliminated. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
936
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:56:00 -
[453] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: How long will you and your pilots be content becoming exactly what you despise? Farmers that spend large amounts of time grinding ISK... which is exactly what you will be.
Alright let's just play mythbusters here. The pope ***** and trees make sound when they fall in the wods. Goons already farm ISK and rat, and are exceedingly efficient at it. Then we use that ISK to fund fun stuff. Except now your troops will be spending their normal ratting time dropping siphons or collecting from them... and since most of the time they won't be collecting anything worthwhile even from those few siphons that survive they will have to spend what would have been their "fun" time trying to rat their daily bread. Look, I'm hugely in favor of the goons being able to exploit this to one degree or another... but as much as you are insisting otherwise I'm pretty sure you'll find more effective ways to do it than what you are proposing.
No seriously by you own ******** logic, wars and burn Jita couldn't ever happen.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Zappity
Kurved Space
552
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:58:00 -
[454] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Aryth wrote:Zappity wrote:A comment on the goon renter plans.
The plan to distribute the valuable moons to the renters and make it their problem seems like a knee-jerk reaction which is surprising. The value of moons in the presence of these new units will be devalued relative to current and I doubt that renters will pay 'whatever you tell them', at least after a couple of months have passed.
Second, this would leave you entirely open to economic attack. If you rely solely on rental income, what prevents PBLRD as a bloc from ceasing rental payments and pocketing the moon goo income? Their own revenue stream would be unaffected and I doubt you have the firepower, in the absence of both moon revenue and rental income, to subdue them all in time. Say what. You really have no idea how renters work do you? He seems to think that renters would, overnight, turn themselves into a unified cohesive bloc with all the normal organization, drive and tools that a real alliance does, and declare themselves independent from us. So no, he really doesn't have any idea how renters work.
I think you are being wilfully blind to how the bloc could be gamed against you because you are desperate to find an easy solution which will maintain the status quo. I do not think they could turn themselves into a "unified cohesive bloc" anymore than highsec entities could. Not by themselves.
Much as I have enjoyed the coalition level tears in this thread I am in no hurry to see goons in particular fall. I make most of my isk by predicting mid term market responses to your long term manipulations. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4762
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:59:00 -
[455] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: How long will you and your pilots be content becoming exactly what you despise? Farmers that spend large amounts of time grinding ISK... which is exactly what you will be.
Alright let's just play mythbusters here. The pope ***** and trees make sound when they fall in the wods. Goons already farm ISK and rat, and are exceedingly efficient at it. Then we use that ISK to fund fun stuff. Except now your troops will be spending their normal ratting time dropping siphons or collecting from them... and since most of the time they won't be collecting anything worthwhile even from those few siphons that survive they will have to spend what would have been their "fun" time trying to rat their daily bread. Look, I'm hugely in favor of the goons being able to exploit this to one degree or another... but as much as you are insisting otherwise I'm pretty sure you'll find more effective ways to do it than what you are proposing. Except alts. Alts don't grant you more actual play time.
That's the point, it's not that you can't afford the effort. It's that the effort simply will take too much time better spent elsewhere on far less mindless (and profitable) activities. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1110
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:59:00 -
[456] - Quote
mynnna wrote:
Look at all these goonie tea
wait I made that joke already.
I feel so bad for admiting you guys are usually correct in game design questions
i would much rather be like GRRR GOONS all the time :( We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
382
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:59:00 -
[457] - Quote
I thought EVE Online was a skill-based RPG, but the word "skill" is not mentioned even once in the dev blog (I did a Ctrl+F search to make sure). I'm confused now... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1384
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:59:00 -
[458] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:If you want siphons to promote PvP, and not terrible log-in-every-3-hours "gameplay", make them
a) invulnerable to POS guns (even manned) b) send a mail to POS owner when anchored.
That way you know when an enemy sets them up in your space, and you have to put together a response fleet to take them down or lose income. As an attacker you can use them to bait defenders into a fight they can't just avoid (or they lose moongoo). Nope If you want the Siphon Unit to generate Fights you need a timer mechanic, so that the game dictates the time when the package full of juicy stuff can be picked up a response fleet that just kills siphon units is nothing but smallscale structure grinding and incredibly boring. a much better implementation of the siphon idea would be something like this: 1: deploy siphon unit 2: invulnerable siphon unit steals from tower for X hours. X can be influenced by the POS owner 3: after X hours, the siphon unit turns into a package full of juicy stuff after that time 4.1: only tower owner shows up - kills the unit, loots the package and gets his stuff (minus the waste) back 4.2: only siphon unit owner shows up - he loots the package and successfully stole from the tower owner 4.3: both partys show up - fight is possible 4.4: all the above + eventual third partys - multitude of possible scenarios either way, the POS owner, the siphon owner and possible third parties all have strong incentives to actually show up.
man i hate timers... all they lead to is blob fights... please ccp do every thing you can to get rid of timers
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
936
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:00:00 -
[459] - Quote
Zappity wrote:mynnna wrote:Aryth wrote:Zappity wrote:A comment on the goon renter plans.
The plan to distribute the valuable moons to the renters and make it their problem seems like a knee-jerk reaction which is surprising. The value of moons in the presence of these new units will be devalued relative to current and I doubt that renters will pay 'whatever you tell them', at least after a couple of months have passed.
Second, this would leave you entirely open to economic attack. If you rely solely on rental income, what prevents PBLRD as a bloc from ceasing rental payments and pocketing the moon goo income? Their own revenue stream would be unaffected and I doubt you have the firepower, in the absence of both moon revenue and rental income, to subdue them all in time. Say what. You really have no idea how renters work do you? He seems to think that renters would, overnight, turn themselves into a unified cohesive bloc with all the normal organization, drive and tools that a real alliance does, and declare themselves independent from us. So no, he really doesn't have any idea how renters work. I think you are being wilfully blind to how the bloc could be gamed against you because you are desperate to find an easy solution which will maintain the status quo. I do not think they could turn themselves into a "unified cohesive bloc" anymore than highsec entities could. Not by themselves. Much as I have enjoyed the coalition level tears in this thread I am in no hurry to see goons in particular fall. I make most of my isk by predicting mid term market responses to your long term manipulations.
Ok I'll spell it out of the mentally deficient.
Renters cannot rebel. If they did, they would lose station access. Renter alliance executor corps are not some sort of democratic publord senate, they are a tyrannic council of main alliance alts. Renters have very few capital ships. They do not work with other renter corps. Even if there WAS a mass rebellion, after every death they would have to go to the nearest NPC station to reship. This is not very different from fighting a regular nullsec war, except the enemies are bad and tiny.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1304
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:01:00 -
[460] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:mynnna wrote: Contrary to all the whining from the poors about how moons are some hugely valuable and completely AFK wealth generator, they are in fact a wealth generator that would make a newbie in highsec laugh. A moon generates 100 units per hour. Right now, Dysprosium is the most valuable mineral in the game, at about 50k per unit. Go ahead, do the math on the hourly income, then calculate 60% of that. I'll wait. When you find that number, that's your take for dropping one.
Basically, I'm saying you ain't getting rich on these, kid.
yes one moon is worth not that much but many are... and from what i understand you guys have 100's of moon mining poses. so it does add up. though not as much as it used to be. 1. from what i understand you will tsf most of the moon poses to renters and leaving the defence in thier hands but increasing thier rent to offset. (a win win in your eyes) 2. I personally plan on syphoning your renters poses as i am making an assumption not all of them will protect thier poses. something goons said are fine with aslong as the bills are paid. 3. you guys stated that you will be setting up shyphon units in non cfc space to reduce output by 20% 4. you also said you have massive holding of said moon minerals and will be selling them for a healthy profit 5. i plan on slight margin trading that value from stolen pos mins thus taking advanatge of your plan and a healthy income. 6. personally i already have enough isk to sustain myself but will be more then happy to "chew the fat" and harass renters doing it. I mean renters can be babies and if they start loosing lots of isk they will want you guys to come and protect them... towhich you guys admit are reliant on renter income to continue your reinbursement policy. its going to be interesting how long the goon/renter dynamic lasts for before goons rage and purge said renters. Lather rinse repeat anyone? 7. if ccp just removed the 20% loss of units from the shyphon mechanic your plans would be eliminated.
So you don't disagree with anything we have said. Great, now let me help you make the next leap of logic.
You could just skip all that and buy the r64s in Jita now and profit a lot more!
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4762
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:02:00 -
[461] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: How long will you and your pilots be content becoming exactly what you despise? Farmers that spend large amounts of time grinding ISK... which is exactly what you will be.
Alright let's just play mythbusters here. The pope ***** and trees make sound when they fall in the wods. Goons already farm ISK and rat, and are exceedingly efficient at it. Then we use that ISK to fund fun stuff. Except now your troops will be spending their normal ratting time dropping siphons or collecting from them... and since most of the time they won't be collecting anything worthwhile even from those few siphons that survive they will have to spend what would have been their "fun" time trying to rat their daily bread. Look, I'm hugely in favor of the goons being able to exploit this to one degree or another... but as much as you are insisting otherwise I'm pretty sure you'll find more effective ways to do it than what you are proposing. No seriously by you own ******** logic, wars and burn Jita couldn't ever happen. War's and burn jita were fun, an entertaining use of your time.
This will be mind numbingly boring and a time sink with little actual payoff for the pilots participating. The money doesn't matter all that much, but endless, pointless repetition doesn't generally sit well with most players outside of high sec.
I'm agreeing with your goals, I'm saying your proposed method is not going to work for your particular organization long term. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1384
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:03:00 -
[462] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote: Ok I'll spell it out of the mentally deficient.
Renters cannot rebel. If they did, they would lose station access. Renter alliance executor corps are not some sort of democratic publord senate, they are a tyrannic council of main alliance alts. Renters have very few capital ships. They do not work with other renter corps. Even if there WAS a mass rebellion, after every death they would have to go to the nearest NPC station to reship. This is not very different from fighting a regular nullsec war, except the enemies are bad and tiny.
renters will not rebel they will simply leave the space and move back to high sec and farm lev iv. as the superintendent its the goons prerogative to keep thier renters happy. thier fun times depend on it. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Zappity
Kurved Space
552
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:03:00 -
[463] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Aryth wrote:Zappity wrote:A comment on the goon renter plans.
The plan to distribute the valuable moons to the renters and make it their problem seems like a knee-jerk reaction which is surprising. The value of moons in the presence of these new units will be devalued relative to current and I doubt that renters will pay 'whatever you tell them', at least after a couple of months have passed.
Second, this would leave you entirely open to economic attack. If you rely solely on rental income, what prevents PBLRD as a bloc from ceasing rental payments and pocketing the moon goo income? Their own revenue stream would be unaffected and I doubt you have the firepower, in the absence of both moon revenue and rental income, to subdue them all in time. Say what. You really have no idea how renters work do you? He seems to think that renters would, overnight, turn themselves into a unified cohesive bloc with all the normal organization, drive and tools that a real alliance does, and declare themselves independent from us. So no, he really doesn't have any idea how renters work. I think you are being wilfully blind to how the bloc could be gamed against you. I am surprised. I do not think they could turn themselves into a "unified cohesive bloc" anymore than highsec entities could. Not by themselves.
Much as I have enjoyed the coalition level tears in this thread I am in no hurry to see goons in particular fall. I make most of my isk by predicting mid term market responses to your long term manipulations. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Zappity
Kurved Space
552
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:05:00 -
[464] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:Zappity wrote:1. CCP, make the units percentage based and apply a stacking penalty. In their current iteration these will just be dropped to prevent harvesting rather than for theft.
2. CCP, you really need to fix AFK cloaking along with this. You realize, of course, that at 100 units per hour production, arguing for a percentage adjustment is basically no different from saying "I think it should be X value instead of Y." Because percent. per centum - look it up. Sorry, I forgot to mention based off the storage rather than production. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1110
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:05:00 -
[465] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:
man i hate timers... all they lead to is blob fights... please ccp do every thing you can to get rid of timers
yeah, because we are totally going to form 500 dudes to defend those few million ISK one could steal from our towers each day.
we are not going to shrug of those millions, especially not in the long run
BUT: we are also not be like :CTA: all the time. It's something that would generate buzz on corp or corp + close friends level We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1384
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:06:00 -
[466] - Quote
Aryth wrote: So you don't disagree with anything we have said. Great, now let me help you make the next leap of logic.
You could just skip all that and buy the r64s in Jita now and profit a lot more!
true. everything you said was logical. though if i did just buy all the r64 in jita, the isk would be going right into your hands... as i am sure the prices are still being manipulated due to your "stock pile"... i would rather take it from your hands by harrasing your renters. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17010
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:06:00 -
[467] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear. This is in every way a horrible idea. If you want there to be a window of non-detection, just delay the cache refresh, but to make the system designed to export data from in-game to out-of-game for the analysis through player tools not fulfil its purpose of providing in-game data, means you might as well not provide the data to begin with since you've just made it inherently useless.
This is a bad solution. Come up with a new one.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1341
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:06:00 -
[468] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:This will be mind numbingly boring and a time sink with little actual payoff for the pilots participating. The money doesn't matter all that much, but endless, pointless repetition doesn't generally sit well with most players outside of high sec. I think you underestimate just how much goons enjoy doing things purely for the sake of making someone else miserable. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
835
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:07:00 -
[469] - Quote
Quote:It will prioritize raw material over processed material if both are available
so, time to switch to caldari pos and put a moon harvester on those ****** materials like hydrocarbons and stuff so the siphons don't touch my reactions...
nice, thanks CCP Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-) |
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3607
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:07:00 -
[470] - Quote
pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields.
Seriously?
API- and timer based AFK ISK-printing interrupted by players who actively play the game?
Not in my EVE, say the goons
It probably doesn't take long for you to realize that you have to start actually living in the systems you wish to own. This is the direction CCP is pushing the game, using the FW occupancy sov model as their lead. Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |
|
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
208
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:08:00 -
[471] - Quote
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:So far as I am understanding this issue :
1) It seems very unlikely that any use of the siphons, by itself, is going to cause a large rise in T2 ship cost. More likely, market speculation and direct manipulation of prices (e.g. by the goons) is going to cause fluctuation in the prices, if anything.
This will likely be true if and only if it is used in the way it was intended, such as a small corp or solo pilot secretly depositing one at an R64 or R32 moon. Goons manipulation of prices will be based on denying those materials (except for the ones they sell) to the market thereby increasing the rarity of those items, subsequently increasing the price through lack of supply. Siphons automatically destroy 20% of what they siphon so any alliance POS management will suffer at least some loss.
Quote: 2) Why do people care if large entities like the goonsperg get massively richer off changes? Even the FW exploit didn't mess up the economy enough for the average player to notice/care much.
Goons aren't just richer, they are at the point where their riches can actually influence the game on a large scale. But it just isn't the isk. Goonswarm also has very good leadership (though many don't like them) and a playerbase that understands how effective they can be with then obey orders, even in the longterm. Goon's finances allow them to buffer their own members from any financial pains that their actions might cause.
Quote: 3) That said, the siphons seem like they could be most useful for very small and/or solo players living in fairly uninhabited space with a hostile moon mining POS in system. Pop a few siphons down overnight and collect a few dozen million isk before someone wastes some time coming out to the boonies to clean them up. That's not going to hurt most POS owners, but for the solo or small gang group it is a nice bit of isk, and it helps them.
Am I missing something?
As I mentioned before, to be profitable for the time, you'd need to hit R64 moons primarily.. of which they are the most watched and most guarded. The R64s and R32s that aren't so well watched are far away in null-sec which would require substantial risk as well as time. Would you spend 5 to 6 hours sneaking into deep null-sec, placing siphons at certain moons with your blockade runner for only about 180mil isk a trip? It might be profitable for some who know where to go, but it certainly won't be a tool of the masses. He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1384
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:09:00 -
[472] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:MeBiatch wrote:
man i hate timers... all they lead to is blob fights... please ccp do every thing you can to get rid of timers
yeah, because we are totally going to form 500 dudes to defend those few million ISK one could steal from our towers each day. we are not going to shrug of those millions, especially not in the long run BUT: we are also not be like :CTA: all the time. It's something that would generate buzz on corp or corp + close friends level
i just ment timers in general. not a fan of them. i understand they exist due to time zones but that does not mean i like them and would rather ccp figure out a way to remove them from the game... though i have no clue how they would achieve this so its a nessasary evil...
though i do not agree that a timer is needed for the shyphon unit. they are cheep enough that loosing one is a non factor...
the only problem with the shyphon unit is the direct loose of 20% of what it takes... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Deathwalley
SOERI Tech
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:09:00 -
[473] - Quote
Seeing in this topic, how much butthurt have people from goons, I think that siphons is the best new thing in Rubicon |
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3607
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:11:00 -
[474] - Quote
Tippia wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear. This is in every way a horrible idea. If you want there to be a window of non-detection, just delay the cache refresh, but to make the system designed to export data from in-game to out-of-game for the analysis through player tools not fulfil its purpose of providing in-game data, means you might as well not provide the data to begin with since you've just made it inherently useless. This is a bad solution. Come up with a new one.
Only thing they need to change is the name of the data stream from "silo content" or whatever it currently is to "output". The siphon taps into the chain after the API data point.
This changes nothing but may help people with OCD issues
Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |
Quintessen
Messengers of Judah Socius Inter Nos
210
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:16:00 -
[475] - Quote
First, if you really want to see this used, don't put the owner's name on it. All it's going to do it promote usage through some un-associated alt in an NPC corp. Let's bypass that and just have it be anonymous. Guerrilla warfare only works when your opponent can't just use a locator agent to find you and hunt you down.
Second, I'm not sure why people are complaining about harassment now given the fact that the harasser's identity will be known. Just wardec them or hunt them down and kill them. That's your conflict driver. Goons getting tired of being griefed? Go kill the people taking your stuff.
That said, I think they're wrong about the T2 market. This is an effective way to break the cartel. People will be stealing valuable moon goo and then selling it on the market. Supply may go down, but the number of suppliers will go up as goons have their POSes bled of their goo. We'l see who ends up being right.
|
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
792
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:17:00 -
[476] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:In a more serious note and realist use case, I'm a spy in enemy alliance and move with no problem in their systems, how can I steal my enemy if I leave a finger print everywhere?
In other words, you will get a free infusion of plausibly deniable NPC corp alts with your serving of new AFK gameplay--if you're ninja-deploying siphons on blue POSes, anyway. I imagine that your alliance-mates will be absolutely certain that the name of a Goon is visible as the deploying party, when they decide to make their point.
I wonder if it would be worth having these things pop and drop a jetcan when they're full, so that you have two hours to pick up the loot before it goes bye-bye. That would create an implicit timer--either the ninja siphoner comes to empty the siphon out before it's full so that it doesn't pop, or they have two hours after it fills up to collect their loot before it vanishes--assuming that someone else hasn't helped themselves to it, of course.
Someone dropping them as an income-denying tactic wouldn't care either way, of course. But they would still have to either tend them or come back to drop new ones every so often if they wanted to keep the income denial up. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3607
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:22:00 -
[477] - Quote
xttz wrote: What do you think our small group of guys who suicide billions of isk a day ganking hi-sec freighters will do with this feature?
Go to forums and cry oceans before it's even released?
Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1951
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:27:00 -
[478] - Quote
Quintessen wrote:First, if you really want to see this used, don't put the owner's name on it. All it's going to do it promote usage through some un-associated alt in an NPC corp. Let's bypass that and just have it be anonymous. Guerrilla warfare only works when your opponent can't just use a locator agent to find you and hunt you down.
Second, I'm not sure why people are complaining about harassment now given the fact that the harasser's identity will be known. Just wardec them or hunt them down and kill them. That's your conflict driver. Goons getting tired of being griefed? Go kill the people taking your stuff.
That said, I think they're wrong about the T2 market. This is an effective way to break the cartel. People will be stealing valuable moon goo and then selling it on the market. Supply may go down, but the number of suppliers will go up as goons have their POSes bled of their goo. We'l see who ends up being right.
All our claims and trolling to the contrary, there hasn't been a moongoo cartel since they implemented Technetium alchemy, and even then it was more like "we hold all the moons and are benefiting from the price increases that the game mechanics have created" than overt manipulation and control. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Shkiki
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:29:00 -
[479] - Quote
How exactly are you supposed to get near a pos at 50km? pos guns will instantly kill you... especially if you are in a hauler. No the siphons should jettison the cargo like PI does. Then leave it up to the player to either probe down the can or warp to bookmark. |
Powers Sa
691
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:33:00 -
[480] - Quote
Roime wrote:xttz wrote: What do you think our small group of guys who suicide billions of isk a day ganking hi-sec freighters will do with this feature?
Go to forums and cry oceans before it's even released? You should show some respect, that man knows more and has discovered more about eve mechanics than all of the posters combined in this thread. lol |
|
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1955
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:34:00 -
[481] - Quote
Shkiki wrote:How exactly are you supposed to get near a pos at 50km? pos guns will instantly kill you... especially if you are in a hauler. No the siphons should jettison the cargo like PI does. Then leave it up to the player to either probe down the can or warp to bookmark.
As has been stated half a dozen times in the thread, POS guns have a randomized delay of several seconds before they even start to lock, and then a lock time low enough that it's a few more seconds before they lock you, and even once they do lock you, the warp disruption batteries take a couple minutes to lock anything small so you can just warp off anyway. So you warp in, bookmark the pos, warp out, come back at 30km or so, drop your siphon, and leave before it does anything to you at all.
e: Oh yeah and because POS gun damage is balanced for an era when Dreads had less EHP than some cruisers have now, they're not really a threat to like, anything. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3607
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:35:00 -
[482] - Quote
Powers Sa wrote:Roime wrote:xttz wrote: What do you think our small group of guys who suicide billions of isk a day ganking hi-sec freighters will do with this feature?
Go to forums and cry oceans before it's even released? You should show some respect, that man knows more and has discovered more about eve mechanics than all of the posters combined in this thread.
That's awesome dude Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
420
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:35:00 -
[483] - Quote
Powers Sa wrote:Roime wrote:xttz wrote: What do you think our small group of guys who suicide billions of isk a day ganking hi-sec freighters will do with this feature?
Go to forums and cry oceans before it's even released? You should show some respect, that man knows more and has discovered more about eve mechanics than all of the posters combined in this thread.
Nice "Leave Brittany Alone!" post there. |
Deathwalley
SOERI Tech
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:37:00 -
[484] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:gascanu wrote:Vladimir Norkoff wrote:gascanu wrote:this is the first tool in a long time CCP give to small/medium alliances in npc 0.0 or low sec that will help them fight the large coalitions, and put a better defence of "their space"; .... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively. That being said, these siphons will far less effective than the panic-stricken Goons would like to make them out to be. you faill to understand that atm the "small groups" have around 0(ZERO) R64 moons; given that, can you tell me how the "large groups" can use this tool to grief them? We can double all the T2 ship prices.
Okay, go on. But a lot of goons in this topic, many populist phrases like "We can double all the T2 ship prices", are telling that siphons can cause some problems for goons. |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
692
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:39:00 -
[485] - Quote
I guess I'll just spam the hell out of them and see what happens/how much money I'll get/how much tears I'll get.
Happy times for everyone but the one who gets his stuff stolen. |
Powers Sa
691
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:42:00 -
[486] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:Quote: The name of the player that deployed the siphon unit is visible in Show Info. Now this is something I don't like at all. Lets pretend I need to buy a new leviathan and decide that Mynnna will pay for it, but Mynnna refuses!!! but since I know where is 80 poses reaction farm is located I decided to go to his ATM machine and make a isk redraw from it, but my name is on the thing... ... In a more serious note and realist use case, I'm a spy in enemy alliance and move with no problem in their systems, how can I steal my enemy if I leave a finger print everywhere?
Do it with your alt and scout with your spy. lol |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1307
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:43:00 -
[487] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:I guess I'll just spam the hell out of them and see what happens/how much money I'll get/how much tears I'll get.
Happy times for everyone but the one who gets his stuff stolen.
Unless those people stockpile! Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1384
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:44:00 -
[488] - Quote
Deathwalley wrote:Okay, go on. But a lot of goons in this topic, many populist phrases like "We can double all the T2 ship prices", are telling that siphons can cause some problems for goons.
yes in the very very very long run... perhaps after two years.
but remember goons had a monoploy on high end minerals for a long long time... and they knew that thier tech would be nerfed so they more then likely bought up huge stockpiles of r64 that i would guess can last just alone for 1-2 years.
so yes in the long run this is bad for goons... but from thier stated plans... they will make enough money from this now to cover themselves for perhaps 2 more years on top of that... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Klyith
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:45:00 -
[489] - Quote
Courthouse wrote: Nice "Leave Brittany Alone!" post there.
If, in a game of three hundred thousand players, nobody else is doing what you're thinking of, that's probably because it is extremely dumb. Exception: Rule does not apply if you are Xttz
mynnna wrote: As has been stated half a dozen times in the thread, POS guns
But dey POS guns can shoot me! If dey shoot me I might die, good lord. I never been anywhere dat someone mi' shoot me before!
Save me, save me! Pray save me from dem POS guns Br'er Rabbit! |
Laendra
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:46:00 -
[490] - Quote
It gives me great pleasure to see how retardedly stupid that many of the posters on this topic are.
The big players in Goonswarm are pointing out obvious flaws in the design of this "feature". Everyone assumes that it will result in Goonswarm tears about lost income, boo hoo hoo.
What you retards fail to understand, is that if CCP continues to go down this path, with this terribly implemented feature, that we are going to use our vast infrastructure and playerbase to DECIMATE moon production everywhere in EVE....for everyone.
You all thought the Threadnaught was bad, lol, you have no ******* clue.
As for CCP. Really, the API is going to LIE now? What's the ******* point? Who the **** thought that was a good idea? Are you all ******* morons now? Is there anyone at CCP with a ******* brain anymore? |
|
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
390
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:51:00 -
[491] - Quote
Laendra wrote: that we are going to use our vast infrastructure and playerbase to DECIMATE moon production everywhere in EVE....for everyone. Excellent, can't wait to see it happen..... and partake a bit myself.
Content for everyone! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17013
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:55:00 -
[492] - Quote
Roime wrote:Tippia wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear. This is in every way a horrible idea. If you want there to be a window of non-detection, just delay the cache refresh, but to make the system designed to export data from in-game to out-of-game for the analysis through player tools not fulfil its purpose of providing in-game data, means you might as well not provide the data to begin with since you've just made it inherently useless. This is a bad solution. Come up with a new one. Only thing they need to change is the name of the data stream from "silo content" or whatever it currently is to "output". The siphon taps into the chain after the API data point. This changes nothing but may help people with OCD issues That just makes it even more meaningless. The API doesn't need to stream static data that is available in the database. If the (semi-live) data export system does not export (semi-live) data, it might as well be removed since it no longer serves any purpose.
Especially since I don't really see any adequately explained reason why the data should be incorrect to begin with. Ok, so they don't want players to be able to use the APi to detect siphoning. Why? What's the design goal here? What's the gameplay they want to create?
Is it to make people patrol their space? Then just remove the data stream entirely and make it mandatory. Is it to provide a window of opportunity? Then just expand the pre-existing window. Is it to alter the balance between entities? Then just remove the data stream entirely, since the same (not actual) rebalance will happen.
Either way, feeding the system bad data only makes the system pointless GÇö it does absolutely nothing else, but does it more inefficiently and stupidly than any of the alternative solutions. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Deathwalley
SOERI Tech
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:55:00 -
[493] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Deathwalley wrote:Okay, go on. But a lot of goons in this topic, many populist phrases like "We can double all the T2 ship prices", are telling that siphons can cause some problems for goons. yes in the very very very long run... perhaps after two years. but remember goons had a monoploy on high end minerals for a long long time... and they knew that thier tech would be nerfed so they more then likely bought up huge stockpiles of r64 that i would guess can last just alone for 1-2 years. so yes in the long run this is bad for goons... but from thier stated plans... they will make enough money from this now to cover themselves for perhaps 2 more years on top of that...
But why in this topic, over 70% of all comments are by goons? And all of them, is about how bad siphons are, and how they will crush all of us.
|
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
421
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:57:00 -
[494] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Laendra wrote: that we are going to use our vast infrastructure and playerbase to DECIMATE moon production everywhere in EVE....for everyone. Excellent, can't wait to see it happen..... and partake a bit myself. Content for everyone!
If your idea of a good game is rampant price manipulation, barriers for entry for new pilots being much larger and the richest, most entrenched nullsec entities getting richer, then go hog wild.
Personally I'd rather see bad ideas fixed before release, lower barriers for entry and some sort of existential threat to ourselves and some of the other nullsec old bloods.
The sort of binary logic that anything someone in Goonswarm doesn't like must be good is problematic, not the least of reasons why being that we also pay subscriptions or PLEX for this game and it's in our vested interest that it not be overly boring or troublesome to play. |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
421
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:58:00 -
[495] - Quote
Deathwalley wrote: But why in this topic, over 70% of all comments are by goons? And all of them, is about how bad siphons are, and how they will crush all of us.
For the uninitiated, rule #1 is never stop posting.
|
GeeShizzle MacCloud
367
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:02:00 -
[496] - Quote
so what i see is a module that has been designed from the ground up by someone who wants to break the will of many people who has to deal with terrible game mechanics to deal with POS's, moon mining, reactions and t2 production.
i would suggest which ever CCP Dev that is, contact your resident Eve economist guru Dr. Eyjo Gudmundsson, and ask him how such a module will affect Eve from an economic level. ill let him b*tch slap u back to where u belong.
The numbers decided upon im certain were dreamt up from the view of the aggressor, not taking into account how insanely OP they are. as unforgiven storm says, the compression ratio is insane, the siphoning amount is insane (especially considering this is meant to be the SMALL version) and the cost is insanely small for their power. The fact its undetectable from an API standpoint is also OP.
The whole point that i got from the original announcement about this is to be able to punish POS owners who DON'T take care of their POS's. |If you dont take care of it, chances are u dont have dedicated programs and spreadsheets working to alert you and to crunch all the calculations u need to stay sane running POS's. So the idea of masking the siphoning from the API is ridiculous imho.
if you're the aggressor using this mod, you're trying to capitalise on the response time of the owner(s)... right?? The actual POS owner(s) has to do something to respond to any API alert they receive right? Its like suddently some people believe POS owners run vast automated botting groups to protect their POS's.
People complaining about programmes made by people will insta alert possible siphoning have somehow thought that the response time is always going to be immediate. This is generally not the case, and where it is the case is most likely a POS thats used for other things than just mining/reactions. So its unlikely you'll generate anything from it anyway.
Alternatively look at it from an RP perspective...
A 10m3 module that costs 10 mil can within an hour breach the hardened shields of a structure costing between 6x and 26x its cost and extract items. Something that a full 250 man fleet dedicated to that action cannot do in 10's of hours of play (including reinforcement period). it can also reconfigure data systems of the structure and rewrite data logs to mask its actions but wont touch things like onlining/offlining systems and POS shield harmonics cause u know, who'd want to breach those things!
the whole things stupidly short sighted in initial implementation both in a game mechanics sense and in RP sense and seems to be vastly unbalanced in favour of the aggressors. sort it out. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1384
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:09:00 -
[497] - Quote
Deathwalley wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Deathwalley wrote:Okay, go on. But a lot of goons in this topic, many populist phrases like "We can double all the T2 ship prices", are telling that siphons can cause some problems for goons. yes in the very very very long run... perhaps after two years. but remember goons had a monoploy on high end minerals for a long long time... and they knew that thier tech would be nerfed so they more then likely bought up huge stockpiles of r64 that i would guess can last just alone for 1-2 years. so yes in the long run this is bad for goons... but from thier stated plans... they will make enough money from this now to cover themselves for perhaps 2 more years on top of that... But why in this topic, over 70% of all comments are by goons? And all of them, is about how bad siphons are, and how they will crush all of us.
they have a habbit of pointing out bad game mechanics by taking them to the extream. they are simply warning ccp what the problem is and how they are going to exploit it.
by removing the 20% base loss this will remove the bulk of the problem. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1384
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:11:00 -
[498] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Laendra wrote: that we are going to use our vast infrastructure and playerbase to DECIMATE moon production everywhere in EVE....for everyone. Excellent, can't wait to see it happen..... and partake a bit myself. Content for everyone! If your idea of a good game is rampant price manipulation, barriers for entry for new pilots being much larger and the richest, most entrenched nullsec entities getting richer, then go hog wild. Personally I'd rather see bad ideas fixed before release, lower barriers for entry and some sort of existential threat to ourselves and some of the other nullsec old bloods. The sort of binary logic that anything someone in Goonswarm doesn't like must be good is problematic, not the least of reasons why being that we also pay subscriptions or PLEX for this game and it's in our vested interest that it not be overly boring or troublesome to play.
you know goons should stop putting thier alts in GSF... that way you can post with a npc alt so people will take you seriously...
so please dont post with your main. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1384
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:14:00 -
[499] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:I guess I'll just spam the hell out of them and see what happens/how much money I'll get/how much tears I'll get.
Happy times for everyone but the one who gets his stuff stolen.
so i heard TRI is reforming... you upset some of your brosefs are leaving? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Klyith
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:19:00 -
[500] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: you know goons should stop putting thier alts in GSF... that way you can post with a npc alt so people will take you seriously...
so please dont post with your main.
We prefer to post with our real GS characters. We do it so that when we're right, we can be openly smug about how right we were.
Especially when we post about things that are stupidly abusable, which we go on to abuse to the maximum extent possible, and everyone else complains grrr Goons. "We told you so" smug is the best smug. |
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1309
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:24:00 -
[501] - Quote
See, we are the Babe Ruth of EVE Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Khoul Ay'd
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
107
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:25:00 -
[502] - Quote
I can't believe I'm doing this but...I'm with the Goons on this! Sure, its easy for small time operators to go, "Ha-ha, Goons gonna lose iskies!" (In reality probably not) So, "Khoul," you say, "why so sad?"
It's this post from CCP SoniClover that disturbs me. "...One of which could go for alchemy..." This begs the question, what are the other other siphons going to target -- POS Fuels, invention components, blueprints, construction components, boosters?
There are plenty of small time operators running a single to a few POSes. If the siphons I imagined come around the small time POS operator is history. I think we have our, 'first they came for the _____' moment.
So there you have it, a carebear at heart has sided with the Goons. You have been warned. The things we do today we must live with forever.... Think about it |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1385
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:25:00 -
[503] - Quote
Klyith wrote:MeBiatch wrote: you know goons should stop putting thier alts in GSF... that way you can post with a npc alt so people will take you seriously...
so please dont post with your main.
We prefer to post with our real GS characters. We do it so that when we're right, we can be openly smug about how right we were. Especially when we post about things that are stupidly abusable, which we go on to abuse to the maximum extent possible, and everyone else complains grrr Goons. "We told you so" smug is the best smug.
touche. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1385
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:26:00 -
[504] - Quote
Aryth wrote:See, we are the Babe Ruth of EVE
interesting because everyone wishes you were lou gehrig... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1385
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:27:00 -
[505] - Quote
Khoul Ay'd wrote:I can't believe I'm doing this but...I'm with the Goons on this! Sure, its easy for small time operators to go, "Ha-ha, Goons gonna lose iskies!" (In reality probably not) So, " Khoul," you say, " why so sad?" It's this post from CCP SoniClover that disturbs me. " ...One of which could go for alchemy..." This begs the question, what are the other other siphons going to target -- POS Fuels, invention components, blueprints, construction components, boosters? There are plenty of small time operators running a single to a few POSes. If the siphons I imagined come around the small time POS operator is history. I think we have our, 'first they came for the _____' moment. So there you have it, a carebear at heart has sided with the Goons. You have been warned.
i know i did it too... i feel like lady macbeth who cant get that damn spot out. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
210
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:30:00 -
[506] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: by removing the 20% base loss this will remove the bulk of the problem.
That won't remove the problem. It may, MAY mitigate it somewhat, but even that isn't very likely. No, to fix this all you would need to do is limit the number of siphons per POS to just one. If that happens, it will revert back to its original purpose.. as a tool for the little guy to use against the big guy. Sure, the big guy can still use it, but the interaction would be a much more equal ground. He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
|
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
425
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:32:00 -
[507] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:i know i did it too... i feel like lady macbeth who cant get that damn spot out.
Nought's had, all's spent, Where our desire is got without content; 'Tis safer to be that which we destroy Than by destruction dwell in doubtful joy. |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
425
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:34:00 -
[508] - Quote
For the illiterates, that line's from Macbeth. That's a Shakespeare joint. It's about how when you get your way it's not always the happy celebration you think it is.
Sort of like how the "raar goons hate it so I must love it" are going to feel. Only they won't post that in iambic. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
73
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:41:00 -
[509] - Quote
Courthouse wrote:That's a Shakespeare joint. The Bard should be careful where he has his joint it is still illegal federally :ohdear: This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:46:00 -
[510] - Quote
Aryth wrote:... Size doesn't matter. Organization does. ... Applause! |
|
Khador Vess
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
83
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:46:00 -
[511] - Quote
Laendra wrote:It gives me great pleasure to see how retardedly stupid that many of the posters on this topic are.
The big players in Goonswarm are pointing out obvious flaws in the design of this "feature". Everyone assumes that it will result in Goonswarm tears about lost income, boo hoo hoo.
What you retards fail to understand, is that if CCP continues to go down this path, with this terribly implemented feature, that we are going to use our vast infrastructure and playerbase to DECIMATE moon production everywhere in EVE....for everyone.
You all thought the Threadnaught was bad, lol, you have no ******* clue.
As for CCP. Really, the API is going to LIE now? What's the ******* point? Who the **** thought that was a good idea? Are you all ******* morons now? Is there anyone at CCP with a ******* brain anymore?
I hope you enjoy a break from the forums... seem like posting here is not good for you
If the API worked any differently than CCP is proposing, then POS owners will have a great big alarm bell going off as soon as someone sets up a siphon completely defeating the usefulness of this module. This change starts to break up the ability of large alliances to passively grab isk for no effort (ok little effort, because fueling POS towers is damn hard).
if you want the passive income with no effort then you take the side order of **** sandwich thats being served with it. Occupy the space you can patrol and own effectively or accept that people are going to come along and pee in your pool while your not looking.
What i would like to know is if the owner of these modules will be able to be identified easily? i.e. can i right click and select show info and see the little picture of the person who anchored the little bugger? I hope not that would be even better as you would need to wait around and see who comes to pick up the siphons contents then
I used to have a forum sig, but CCP SocksFour stole it.... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1385
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:46:00 -
[512] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:MeBiatch wrote: by removing the 20% base loss this will remove the bulk of the problem.
That won't remove the problem. It may, MAY mitigate it somewhat, but even that isn't very likely. No, to fix this all you would need to do is limit the number of siphons per POS to just one. If that happens, it will revert back to its original purpose.. as a tool for the little guy to use against the big guy. Sure, the big guy can still use it, but the interaction would be a much more equal ground.
ok so then reduce to one (of each size) per pos and add my idea for the 3% reduction in the waste amount per level and we are ok? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
69
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:47:00 -
[513] - Quote
I wonder how opinions on these would change if having one in your cargohold prevented your cloak from operating.
Instead of covops/T2 industrials, you'd probably see them dropped mostly by warp stabbed interceptors... |
Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
341
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:49:00 -
[514] - Quote
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:CtrlAltDelete Dethahal wrote:I am spending every ISK I own on these and will unleash madness on lowsec moon empires. Get ready kids, Goons have a new feature to abuse K. We live and play in our space and will just blow them up shortly after they are dropped.
+1 for my CEO. You'll see my name on those mails, too. "you can identify eve players by looking at their cars. Since they don't drive what they can't afford to lose."-á --áBienator II |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
426
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:50:00 -
[515] - Quote
Atomic Option wrote:I wonder how opinions on these would change if having one in your cargohold prevented your cloak from operating.
Instead of covops/T2 industrials, you'd probably see them dropped mostly by warp stabbed interceptors... But that would keep the most deserving individuals from maximizing their potential. A pox on you for suggesting that the providers be regulated in such a way. |
Cockaigne
Kraken Exploration and Janitorial Services
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:51:00 -
[516] - Quote
Vatek wrote:Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again.
You say that like it's a bad thing... |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:52:00 -
[517] - Quote
Sasha Angelis wrote: Reading the blog: There is no anchoring/onlining time. Warp in. Rightclick > Deploy Warp out.
5s at max. POS modules take much longer to lock in frigates.
I wonder: could you do something with smartbombs? cloaky smartbomber(s) around siphon, waiting for harvester to drop in... |
CtrlAltDelete Dethahal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:52:00 -
[518] - Quote
One of two things is going to happen in goons or possibly both:
1: Subsidized or free Siphons for tormenting people 2: Bounties for killing them in goon territory
I run a bunch of POSs and I'm excited about the tears and isk this will generate. I'll take the occasional loss to them.
Hell I will bankroll newbies to fly around with these.
It will become, as our finance gurus have been saying all thread, something people will regret CCP put in the game. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4845
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:59:00 -
[519] - Quote
Siphon from CSAAs, steal titan bits. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Khoul Ay'd
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
108
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:06:00 -
[520] - Quote
Cockaigne wrote:Vatek wrote:Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again. You say that like it's a bad thing...
Right, because we all know Tech2 climbing through the roof is good for everyone The things we do today we must live with forever.... Think about it |
|
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:06:00 -
[521] - Quote
Tiye Q wrote:xttz wrote:It should be a bit of a red flag when CCP come up with the cheapest griefing tool in EVE for years, and GoonSwarm are the ones saying "hang on that's a bit much".
What exactly do you lot think this is going to do to the Tech 2 market when virtually no one is getting moon materials without interruption? We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?
The Tech 2 materials market has just been handed back to big alliances. We're going to grief the **** out of everyone if this remains unchanged, and make bank while doing so. CFC space is not behind some impregnable wall. Anyone can get into CFC systems at anytime, and with the new interceptor changes, people will be able to get in much easier. CFC/GSF will not be able to grief EVE with this feature. In fact the opposite will occur. Random entities will start to grief every CFC/GSF system, and I'm not talking about renter systems.
Please come to deklein. Every time people say this we get a few more kills then it inevitably dies off and stagnates like now. |
Khador Vess
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
83
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:07:00 -
[522] - Quote
Khoul Ay'd wrote:Cockaigne wrote:Vatek wrote:Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again. You say that like it's a bad thing... Right, because we all know Tech2 climbing through the roof is good for everyone
Alchemy my dear boy.... its all about alchemy. oh wait isnt that worthless now... nevermind I used to have a forum sig, but CCP SocksFour stole it.... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4845
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:09:00 -
[523] - Quote
This will be great. Since a director said so, clearly this must be the case.
Keep rolling out the siphons, especially excited to see what functionality the bigger ones have There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1418
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:11:00 -
[524] - Quote
Yes, finally a gameplay element that favours high degrees of coordination, large numbers, and a willingness to spam and grind structures.
Goons are so screwed. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4845
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:12:00 -
[525] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Yes, finally a gameplay element that favours high-degrees of coordination, large numbers, and a willingness to spam and grind structures.
Goons are so screwed. Heh... heh......
and more .................... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Lekgoa
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:14:00 -
[526] - Quote
Just make it so they stop siphoning when full and make it possible to put items into them. Open enemy siphon, fill it with worthless junk, leave it. Problem solved. |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
350
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:16:00 -
[527] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not? Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear.
Let the tears flow... How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Mr Beardsley
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:22:00 -
[528] - Quote
This is the definitive proof that CCP has decided that EVE in its current form, with a completely stagnant user base, is just a cash cow to support their console efforts. From now on it's going to be nothing but adding more zero-risk griefing in order to move us further into MOBA spreadsheet territory. I think at this point a lot of people must be realizing that pushing PLEX has become not only CCP's main job, but its only job. |
Klyith
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:23:00 -
[529] - Quote
The dumbest thing about this is that siphons were originally proposed (by Jade Constantine, no less!) as a way for small gang PVPers to force fights from larger alliances that usually just ignore irritants that doesn't threaten sov. You'd use a siphon and the big guys would get a "someone's stealing your moongoo" alert, and they'd be forced to assemble a gang to go deal with it.
That original idea had problems from timezone issues. But this implementation will see zero fights over siphons. Zero. They can be dropped by a cloaky covops, they'll be killed by solo semi-AFK drone boats (hover your domi 10 meters outside the pos shield and let heavies do the work) .
So an idea that was about generating more PVP has become a boringly safe annoyance. Even if (that's a big IF) it's successful at harming the sprawling goon empire, it will do so is the most tedious way possible. GSF will tire of upkeep on the moons of Delve and sell the region to Russians or something. Pubbies will cheer at Goons being forced to retreat. 6 months from now, after the excitement has worn off, siphons will only be used by those more interested in grief than profit. Another dull feature in an increasing dull game that continually de-emphasizes it's sole exciting feature, PVP. |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
350
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:27:00 -
[530] - Quote
I like the siphons, if people use the systems where their moon goo empire lies they wont have a problem with people spamming these siphons without their knowledge. If people have vast swaths of unoccupied space, as the nullblocs (like Goonswam who is crying all over this thread) do, then this might actually have an impact. A good "use it or loose it" mechanic nullsec has needed for a long time.
+1, I just wish this came out during the reign of technetium.
(Inb4 post about how I'm one of those "grr goons" people)
Courthouse wrote:Deathwalley wrote: But why in this topic, over 70% of all comments are by goons? And all of them, is about how bad siphons are, and how they will crush all of us.
For the uninitiated, rule #1 is never stop posting.
I thought rule #1 was don't talk about fight club How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
|
Zappity
Kurved Space
554
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:27:00 -
[531] - Quote
Mr Beardsley wrote:This is the definitive proof that CCP has decided that EVE in its current form, with a completely stagnant user base, is just a cash cow to support their console efforts. From now on it's going to be nothing but adding more zero-risk griefing in order to move us further into MOBA spreadsheet territory. I think at this point a lot of people must be realizing that pushing PLEX has become not only CCP's main job, but its only job.
I don't understand this comment. I think the implementation is flawed but CCP appears to be trying to change to way nullsec operates away from precisely what you describe. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1419
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:29:00 -
[532] - Quote
Klyith wrote:The dumbest thing about this is that siphons were originally proposed (by Jade Constantine, no less!) as a way for small gang PVPers to force fights from larger alliances that usually just ignore irritants that doesn't threaten sov. You'd use a siphon and the big guys would get a "someone's stealing your moongoo" alert, and they'd be forced to assemble a gang to go deal with it.
That original idea had problems from timezone issues. But this implementation will see zero fights over siphons. Zero. They can be dropped by a cloaky covops, they'll be killed by solo semi-AFK drone boats (hover your domi 10 meters outside the pos shield and let heavies do the work) .
So an idea that was about generating more PVP has become a boringly safe annoyance. Even if (that's a big IF) it's successful at harming the sprawling goon empire, it will do so is the most tedious way possible. GSF will tire of upkeep on the moons of Delve and sell the region to Russians or something. Pubbies will cheer at Goons being forced to retreat. 6 months from now, after the excitement has worn off, siphons will only be used by those more interested in grief than profit. Another dull feature in an increasing dull game that continually de-emphasizes it's sole exciting feature, PVP.
Hey, saved me the typing I couldnt be assed to do.
Hi5s, brohammer. More structure spam and grind is the last thing nullsec needs. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Zappity
Kurved Space
554
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:29:00 -
[533] - Quote
Klyith wrote:The dumbest thing about this is that siphons were originally proposed (by Jade Constantine, no less!) as a way for small gang PVPers to force fights from larger alliances that usually just ignore irritants that doesn't threaten sov. You'd use a siphon and the big guys would get a "someone's stealing your moongoo" alert, and they'd be forced to assemble a gang to go deal with it.
That original idea had problems from timezone issues. But this implementation will see zero fights over siphons. Zero. They can be dropped by a cloaky covops, they'll be killed by solo semi-AFK drone boats (hover your domi 10 meters outside the pos shield and let heavies do the work) .
So an idea that was about generating more PVP has become a boringly safe annoyance. Even if (that's a big IF) it's successful at harming the sprawling goon empire, it will do so is the most tedious way possible. GSF will tire of upkeep on the moons of Delve and sell the region to Russians or something. Pubbies will cheer at Goons being forced to retreat. 6 months from now, after the excitement has worn off, siphons will only be used by those more interested in grief than profit. Another dull feature in an increasing dull game that continually de-emphasizes it's sole exciting feature, PVP.
Remember that they have spoken about new versions of the siphon (eg a larger, fueled variety). Perhaps they will achieve what you describe. I think this one was meant to be a nuisance version. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Abla Tive
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:32:00 -
[534] - Quote
As a high sec miner, I *love* the concept of lots of 10m isk thingies being blowed up.
It is good for business. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4845
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:32:00 -
[535] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Klyith wrote:The dumbest thing about this is that siphons were originally proposed (by Jade Constantine, no less!) as a way for small gang PVPers to force fights from larger alliances that usually just ignore irritants that doesn't threaten sov. You'd use a siphon and the big guys would get a "someone's stealing your moongoo" alert, and they'd be forced to assemble a gang to go deal with it.
That original idea had problems from timezone issues. But this implementation will see zero fights over siphons. Zero. They can be dropped by a cloaky covops, they'll be killed by solo semi-AFK drone boats (hover your domi 10 meters outside the pos shield and let heavies do the work) .
So an idea that was about generating more PVP has become a boringly safe annoyance. Even if (that's a big IF) it's successful at harming the sprawling goon empire, it will do so is the most tedious way possible. GSF will tire of upkeep on the moons of Delve and sell the region to Russians or something. Pubbies will cheer at Goons being forced to retreat. 6 months from now, after the excitement has worn off, siphons will only be used by those more interested in grief than profit. Another dull feature in an increasing dull game that continually de-emphasizes it's sole exciting feature, PVP. Hey, saved me the typing I couldnt be assed to do. Hi5s, brohammer. More structure spam and grind is the last thing nullsec needs. Shut up, we need more large signature radius unmoving objects. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Kenneth Skybound
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:34:00 -
[536] - Quote
Okay, a lot has been said (with many recurring themes) so let's work through this step by step.
Scenario 1 - Siphon is used to make money.
Requirements: Thief has to place the siphon(s) and be in a position to collect the stolen goods AND transport them to a place for sale.
Taking Neodymium at 30k/unit, siphoning 48 units per hour (20% waste factored in here) comes to 1.44m/hour for one siphon running at max. From what I've read, the other siphon would only be able to claim 32units per hour, 960k/hour. With two siphons running, that is a 20m investment, 2.4m/hour return potential. After 9 cycles, we are seeing a profit.
This means 9 cycles in which:
- The siphon is not destroyed
- The siphon is not looted
- The Thief is not caught
- The thief is able to return to their loot
A longer wait time for more profit also risks being found/looted. As for capacity, that's 80m^3/hour with Neo. 9 hour, 720. Definitely looking at blockade runner volumes.
UNLESS. The Thief comes to the loot every hour or two. More on that later.
Scenario 2 - Siphon used to annoy.
Requirements: Thief has to place the siphon(s). The siphon(s) should be considered lost to the thief, along with contents generated.
Straight up 20m investment for 2 siphons on just 1 POS. The thief is gaining no additional value out of this. The thief may choose to scoop and blow up the loot. If they make any reasonable cash from it, we're moving towards the there for profit. I'll consider a hybrid in a moment. For the POS owner, this is annoying as these modules will just nab stuff, although at 50k hp removing them once found is not too big an issue.
Scenario 3 - Harass and profit.
Catch it, kill it, Thief loses 20m, owner loses 20%-100% of material, depending if a third party steals the loot.
Don't catch it, thief returns, thief has method to collect material. See above for profit time on Neo (R64).
For the thief, this doesn't strike me as all that great a return. For those worried about hundreds being dropped, a covert hauler of 10k could carry 500 of these, costing the thief 5 billion ISK. 5 billion. 250 Poses could be touched in this way, but the cost to the POS owner would take a significant time to reach 5 billion, especially if the owner catches the siphon and loots back upto 80%.
So how about reasonable times to maintain? 1 Thief, 1 POS runner, the thief has the advantage of knowing when they placed the Siphon and can check on the owner to know when they typically come online. With greater investment in intel gathering comes more secure reard.
1 Thief, 4 POS runners. I'm expanding POS runner here to mean someone to whom the POS is blue and would do something regards to removing discovered siphons. 4 people can easily check the POS and, depending on time zones, get a roughly even split. With just a casual d-scan, boom, any active siphons in range are detected and can be isolated.
1 very active thief, 1 inactive POS runner. Thief comes on every hour, scoops the loot. Kudos for being so bloody active, dontcha think? Since when does 1 POS owner become infinitely capable to deal with 1 other player when they don't put in the time?
1 Thief, 4 POS runners, 1 roaming gang. POS has been siphoned for 3 hours, no POS runner has yet detected it, third party comes along and grabs the free goo. Thief is out 20m and no return for 3 hours, POS is out 3 hours goo for not being available.
============
That's scenarios, factoids and other tidbits of interest. In my honest opinion, I feel it not unwarranted to say that those blue (eg, corp, alliance, allies) to the area could do with checking the area with a fleeting directional scan. Anyone passing through can give a quick blink.
You obviously have the issue of blues looting your own POS and leaving the siphon there, profit for themselves as line members sticking it to the man but then that's what happens when people aren't exactly honorable. A potential fix here is to allow the structure to be destroyed and looted, not just looted. Downside for roaming gangs collecting pennies mind you.
Considerations about activity are countered by simply having decent members help out. Just a quick flick across direction scan, oh look, it is clear, move on with life. Welcome to eve, where solo play isn't as easy as group play. Who would have thought it. For a thief to claim their stuff, they have to be more active than the POS owner. Without that activity, they siphon 20% off the POS. Annoying but not game breaking, and market variation can help accommodate that.
- Keep the structures locked in place. A minimum cost is good.
- Remove the ability for anyone to loot the module
- Make the module drop 100% of contents upon destruction
That final point just ensures the 80% return for semi active POS runners, and the looting helps enforce some friendly assistance; although they can still bunk off with the looted goo, they've popped the siphon. Should they wait (to steal more goo for themselves), the thief or POS owner might be back by then.
Thinking this through, it has very little opportunity for profit off installations where the owner/friendlies check the area while giving a somewhat more potent harassment tool. However, the module should be made accessible only by the thief (permission option for corp/alliance?). |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
18
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:34:00 -
[537] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not? Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear.
Well that quite frankly is pants on head and set on fire stupid. What is the point of the API if the data isn't correct? Also, if something seems like it might not be balanced as one dev noted, how about you don't release it until it is balanced?
Come to think of this, how about CCP stops and thinks for 3 micro seconds about this? I see above people talking about POS's being easy money and requiring about 3 minutes work. Only someone who doesn't manage a POS and hasn't spent the endless hours, waiting to online a POS and the mods, handle to the logistics of the fuel, shuffled product between reaction towers would think this. Not to mention the time taken to conquer the space, clear dead POS's from the moon etc, etc, etc.
How about instead of mucking around giving talentless anti-social mouth breathers more tools to continue their crusade to measure their self worth in in game hate mail, CCP actually fixes POS interface, gameplay, flexibility and useability? Or will that be like balancing these siphons and happen after due time and review?
It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1419
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:39:00 -
[538] - Quote
Upon a little reflection, this is so benign in its stupidity that i can't really muster the ~care.
After the first couple months of novelty wear off, this feature will be largely unused by anything resembling a guerrilla force, and become yet another tool for the biggest and most organized blocs to structure grief the other side into not logging in for sov wars. If anything, it will hasten a meaningful nullsec fix by compounding the already existing problems with sov gameplay. In the meantime I'll be getting filthy rich #jitafourtyfour
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:00:00 -
[539] - Quote
so, afk cloaking is now issue after at this time - because goons are affected. who knew?! |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
368
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:06:00 -
[540] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:so, afk cloaking is now issue after at this time - because goons are affected. who knew?!
how little u know.
|
|
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
738
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:07:00 -
[541] - Quote
As a member of Goonswarm, I want to state that I am completely opposed to people pouring gasoline over themselves and then lighting matches. You should not do this, it is bad for you and I will be very upset if you do it. I am a goon who opposes self-immolation in all its forms.
So good luck with that.
|
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1423
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:11:00 -
[542] - Quote
HAHAHA STOOPID GOONIE IM ON FIRE AND YOU CANT STOP ME
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Thirdsin
Impact Theory
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:14:00 -
[543] - Quote
From the sounds of it, CCP has prioritized roll out a new toy they already know will be broken over addressing content already in the game. Guess its easier to add shiny things to distract from the other broken toys? There must be some broader plan we just aren't privy to.
Concept sounds fun, as detailed I see it being too easy and inexpensive to abuse. Really easy. Now we wait for some group to show just how disruptive and poorly implemented this will be. I wonder who it will be... hmm.
Screwing with the API is bad. This should not happen. I don't like where its going. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
739
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:16:00 -
[544] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:HAHAHA STOOPID GOONIE IM ON FIRE AND YOU CANT STOP ME
Post with your main, Th+¡ch Quߦúng -Éß+¬c.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4845
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:21:00 -
[545] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Upon a little reflection, this is so benign in its stupidity that i can't really muster the ~care.
After the first couple months of novelty wear off, this feature will be largely unused by anything resembling a guerrilla force, and become yet another tool for the biggest and most organized blocs to structure grief the other side into not logging in for sov wars. If anything, it will hasten a meaningful nullsec fix by compounding the already existing problems with sov gameplay. In the meantime I'll be getting filthy rich #jitafourtyfour Structure grief? I have no idea what you are talking about ... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:25:00 -
[546] - Quote
IrJosy wrote:... If goons siphon all of your moon income. ... I do not understand? How they can siphon all? You can pick up as easily as they, no? So you get something? |
Zappity
Kurved Space
554
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:28:00 -
[547] - Quote
Kropotkin wrote:IrJosy wrote:... If goons siphon all of your moon income. ... I do not understand? How they can siphon all? You can pick up as easily as they, no? So you get something?
Of course you can get something but you are guaranteed to lose 20% each cycle. I sense a new skill approaching. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Rythm
noisy party alcoholics
45
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:31:00 -
[548] - Quote
Would be nice to reduce syphon cycle and allow targeting of specific silos.
|
Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
341
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:34:00 -
[549] - Quote
Goon tears, best tears "you can identify eve players by looking at their cars. Since they don't drive what they can't afford to lose."-á --áBienator II |
Sir Prometeus
Shimai of New Eden
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:34:00 -
[550] - Quote
I wonder how are you planning to recover the moon-goo you are stealing. I mean, deploying one is easy, just throw it, no anchoring time. However, if you are stealing from a deathstar, how are you going to put the loot into your indy and warp out before you die?
Anyway, spamming them over other alliance's poses would be enough grief since they can wast 20% of the input, it doesn't matter if they recover the stolen goods.
Also, filling them with crap is not possible, unless your reactors are filled with it and they steal the ****. |
|
Utopa Kashuken
Rotten Kimchi Squadron Brothers of Tangra
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:49:00 -
[551] - Quote
Quote: Anybody can access the storage and take from it.
Well, then why POS owners have to destroy the unit? Just go and take it back. |
Sir Prometeus
Shimai of New Eden
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:56:00 -
[552] - Quote
Utopa Kashuken wrote:Quote: Anybody can access the storage and take from it. Well, then why POS owners have to destroy the unit? Just go and take it back.
20% wastage factor, not something pos owners want |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
350
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:58:00 -
[553] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:As a member of Goonswarm, I want to state that I am completely opposed to people pouring gasoline over themselves and then lighting matches. You should not do this, it is bad for you and I will be very upset if you do it. I am a goon who opposes self-immolation in all its forms.
So good luck with that.
That explains why, as a member of Goonswarm, you are so vehemently against these siphons. After all, supporting them would hurt Goon moon profits. So soon after grinding 3 regions with fleets of stealth bombers too, such a shame.
Zappity wrote:Kropotkin wrote:IrJosy wrote:... If goons siphon all of your moon income. ... I do not understand? How they can siphon all? You can pick up as easily as they, no? So you get something? Of course you can get something but you are guaranteed to lose 20% each cycle. I sense a new skill approaching.
Not another skill CCP, c'mon. There are already so many semi-useless skills How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Utopa Kashuken
Rotten Kimchi Squadron Brothers of Tangra
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 01:59:00 -
[554] - Quote
Sir Prometeus wrote:Utopa Kashuken wrote:Quote: Anybody can access the storage and take from it. Well, then why POS owners have to destroy the unit? Just go and take it back. 20% wastage factor, not something pos owners want
Oops. |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
350
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 02:00:00 -
[555] - Quote
Sir Prometeus wrote:Utopa Kashuken wrote:Quote: Anybody can access the storage and take from it. Well, then why POS owners have to destroy the unit? Just go and take it back. 20% wastage factor, not something pos owners want
Better than 100% (simply blowing it up) How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Kira Coldblood
Unknown Space Exploration
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 02:01:00 -
[556] - Quote
I remember the days when Goons harassed freighter pilots because they had money printing machines in their cargoholds. Now, when Goons' printing machines are nerfed, they cry like babies.
I am going to enjoy this expansion, a lot. WTB 100x syphons |
Utopa Kashuken
Rotten Kimchi Squadron Brothers of Tangra
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 02:05:00 -
[557] - Quote
Quote: The name of the player that deployed the siphon unit is visible in Show Info.
If not visible, more fun. Isn't it? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4845
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 02:11:00 -
[558] - Quote
All the siphons ! There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Sir Prometeus
Shimai of New Eden
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 02:13:00 -
[559] - Quote
Utopa Kashuken wrote:Quote: The name of the player that deployed the siphon unit is visible in Show Info. If not visible, more fun. Isn't it?
Considering the access free-for-all and the presumably low skill requisites, alters dropping hundreds of syphons will be common sight in the near future. |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1271
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 02:18:00 -
[560] - Quote
Please don't introduce a passive mechanic to combat a passive mechanic. |
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Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
742
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 02:20:00 -
[561] - Quote
You know what? This is going to be awesome. |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
619
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 02:24:00 -
[562] - Quote
Just had another brilliant idea you can do with these siphons... you can use an alt, and rob your corp/alliance with them while remaining in the corp/alliance.
I am thinking you could achieve this by deploying them with covert ops, then returning with a blockade runner, and do drive by ( warp in cloaked to a bookmark, align to a point that will take you within distance of picking the product up from the siphon, uncloak quickly, pick the stuff up, warp off) pick ups while aligned to a warp out point. Will have to mess around with it on the Test server to see if this can be done. *removed inappropriate signature* - CCP Eterne |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1425
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 02:29:00 -
[563] - Quote
I Love Boobies wrote:Just had another brilliant idea you can do with these siphons... you can use an alt, and rob your corp/alliance with them while remaining in the corp/alliance. I am thinking you could achieve this by deploying them with covert ops, then returning with a blockade runner, and do drive by ( warp in cloaked to a bookmark, align to a point that will take you within distance of picking the product up from the siphon, uncloak quickly, pick the stuff up, warp off) pick ups while aligned to a warp out point. Will have to mess around with it on the Test server to see if this can be done.
Should have just made them anonymous. Intragroup theft is the only redeeming feature so far. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
351
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 02:53:00 -
[564] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:I Love Boobies wrote:Just had another brilliant idea you can do with these siphons... you can use an alt, and rob your corp/alliance with them while remaining in the corp/alliance. I am thinking you could achieve this by deploying them with covert ops, then returning with a blockade runner, and do drive by ( warp in cloaked to a bookmark, align to a point that will take you within distance of picking the product up from the siphon, uncloak quickly, pick the stuff up, warp off) pick ups while aligned to a warp out point. Will have to mess around with it on the Test server to see if this can be done. Should have just made them anonymous. Intragroup theft is the only redeeming feature so far.
You forgot the ability to troll people who don't check on their towers. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:13:00 -
[565] - Quote
Not being a null dweller I will not comment on how this will affect gameplay there.
What I do want to comment is that if i were to come on to the forums and whine that my Hulk got blown up while I was AFK how much sympathy would I get? Not one damn bit. In fact I would be told about how poor my play style is?
Think about it. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4846
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:17:00 -
[566] - Quote
how adorable There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4846
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:18:00 -
[567] - Quote
also, let's remove reinforcement timers There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1426
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:19:00 -
[568] - Quote
Petty and illusory feelings of revenge are the best metrics for design implementation. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4846
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:21:00 -
[569] - Quote
progodlegend's plan moves towards fruition There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Laendra
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:22:00 -
[570] - Quote
Khador Vess wrote: I hope you enjoy a break from the forums... seem like posting here is not good for you
I know not what you speak of.
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4846
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:27:00 -
[571] - Quote
Why am I even posting here, it seems we've gotten all the relevant information? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
392
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:32:00 -
[572] - Quote
Change is good. More tears for the tear throne.
The amount of goon ship toasting in this thread is a wonderful indicator of things to come. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17017
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:37:00 -
[573] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Change is good. Not really, no. Good change is good. Bad changes, such as making the data export not export data, on the other hand is not good.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Zappity
Kurved Space
554
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:45:00 -
[574] - Quote
Tippia wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Change is good. Not really, no. Good change is good. Bad changes, such as making the data export not export data, on the other hand is not good.
Yeah, I understand and agree with the intent but buggering with API data is the wrong way to achieve it. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1387
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:46:00 -
[575] - Quote
I Love Boobies wrote:Just had another brilliant idea you can do with these siphons... you can use an alt, and rob your corp/alliance with them while remaining in the corp/alliance. I am thinking you could achieve this by deploying them with covert ops, then returning with a blockade runner, and do drive by ( warp in cloaked to a bookmark, align to a point that will take you within distance of picking the product up from the siphon, uncloak quickly, pick the stuff up, warp off) pick ups while aligned to a warp out point. Will have to mess around with it on the Test server to see if this can be done.
does the full api show alts? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
393
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:48:00 -
[576] - Quote
Tippia wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Change is good. Not really, no. Good change is good. Bad changes, such as making the data export not export data, on the other hand is not good. Nothing about this change is bad. Most of the worthwhile moons in the game are owned by two(?) powerblocks. They want to use their resources to **** with each other? Good, not like that hasn't happened before.
The only thing that changed is that the rest of eve can now partake in moon conflicts. Follow the money. A convenient "value of regions" chart that shows the main cause of the last big war.
The smaller entities don't really have significant assets that are at risk from these siphons. Goons do (see the aforementioned chart ). They have no recourse. What are they gonna do, siphon N3's moons? What do I care. Hence all the shiptoasting in this thread.
This is a good change. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1387
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:50:00 -
[577] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Siphon from CSAAs, steal titan bits.
and that son is where baby titans come from... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
RubaixX
Lyman Alpha Syndicate
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:03:00 -
[578] - Quote
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:Make it so you can offline and make it cloak please.
yeah and i want one that can warp cloaked too, with guns.
derp.
|
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
743
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:05:00 -
[579] - Quote
Gargep Farrow wrote:Not being a null dweller I will not comment on how this will affect gameplay there.
What I do want to comment is that if i were to come on to the forums and whine that my Hulk got blown up while I was AFK how much sympathy would I get? Not one damn bit. In fact I would be told about how poor my play style is?
Think about it.
Actually, that's exactly what happened and miners got massive buffs, so maybe you should think about it. |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
178
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:11:00 -
[580] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. Or... you could actually occupy the space you decide to deploy assets in with other players from your corp, alliance, coalition? Okay, you be the one to camp all of your POSes with Instacanes. You'll need enough to fast-lock a cloaky hauler--who will need to dumb enough to decloak--or to alpha an inty who might land well outside of optimal.
The problem with this mechanic isn't that "living in your space can prevent it"; the problem is that the opportunity cost for the aggressor is so low compared to the massive PIA it will create for POS owners.
Ironically, GSF has by far the best operational capability to blanket entire Regions with these things. Fix POSes.-á Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one). |
|
Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
41
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:19:00 -
[581] - Quote
Hmmm...lot of people seem to be reading this differently than me.
Siphons might be a good deal if they were cloaked devices requiring a great deal of time to locate manually without a Bookmark.
But I read blog as saying these units are clearly visible on overview -- not stealth. Collection bay is not locked. They are easy destroyed without any CONCORD consequence (though that seems unnecesary given there is no moon goo where CONCORD shows up). And they cost 10M apiece, have low collection rate and cannot be retrieved...
Siphons seem only to be effective when the owner visits only 1-2 times a month to refuel and collect goo. Even then its not too economic to stack bunches of these siphons thinking they will last a long time and collect lots of goo. Siphons are mainly an expensive and low intensity production harassment measure. Once POS owner are aware that siphons exist, they may need to spend as extra 10 minutes to destroy the current crop of siphons whenever they visit. Moreover siphon will be destroyed be corp rank and file PVP members whenever they happen to pass the POS.
Uncloaked siphons with the given parameters might be usefull if they siphoned off Tower CPU or power instead. So tossing out a enough of them could shut down POS guns and modules.
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1387
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:20:00 -
[582] - Quote
It just occurred to me but this shyphon unit in principle reminds me of people who ninja salvage wrecks in high sec. and the fact that people in null sec are somewhat upset about it just spews irony. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2092
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:22:00 -
[583] - Quote
a compromise regarding the API problem could work as follows: - The API only reports "fake" values as long the stolen stuff is still in the deployable (lore: stuff is still in the POS system, POS is happy since it thinks deployable is part of the system) - as soon someone empties the deployable the POS notices it and the API reports "correct" values of the stuff which is in the POS
in short: automated detection is possible as soon someone takes stuff out of the deployable
regarding balancing: Something tells me that the main balancing factor is the capacity of those deployables. Even if you drop dozen of them they will stop collecting stuff as soon they are full and the pos will run at 100% efficiency (was not stated in the blog, i could be wrong). Catching covops haulers might become a thing... if you would know when they would appear. Thats the missing link what would make it somewhat balanced. The whole process is relatively risk free for the parasite. (deployable explodes automatically short after it is full or something like that?) eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:27:00 -
[584] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Gargep Farrow wrote:Not being a null dweller I will not comment on how this will affect gameplay there.
What I do want to comment is that if i were to come on to the forums and whine that my Hulk got blown up while I was AFK how much sympathy would I get? Not one damn bit. In fact I would be told about how poor my play style is?
Think about it. Actually, that's exactly what happened and miners got massive buffs, so maybe you should think about it.
Easy, If I park a Hulk in the wrong belt and go AFK I will come back to my computer and find myself in a station needing to pay to upgrade my clone and buy new implants and Hulk. And again I will still get no sympathy.
Now having said that, aside from the whining about AFK and POS's, I am willing to see your point. Looking at the Warp speed changes also coming in Rubicon, I am willing to believe that this change may also be imbalanced and from the other comments here I could see how it may have bad effects on the game economy. Lower moon goo production coupled with having a harder time finding pilots willing to fly a freighter, that will be even slower than they are now, to get the product to market is not a good thing.
Still dont expect me to show any sympathy for the AFK argument. |
Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
41
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:43:00 -
[585] - Quote
Honestly new features like this probably should NOT be written at this time and against a POS model that CCP is promising to radically update within the next year. CCP has no idea of what the new POS will look like in terms of POS modules, POS fits, POS security etc. The more things written like the siphon the harder it will be to code a new POS model in a good and sensible manner - because all sorst of old POS code wil be anchored to pre-mature accessories like sipohons.
True most corp thieves would love to see CCP entrench the current POS model even deeper into EVE to preserve weak security on Corp shared structures like the ship hangar.
However a much larger group would like to see the POS shield bubble go away. Its an unnecessary feature that allows ships under fire to escape combat. The scope of POS shields should go the way of old style Doomsday weapons. When really the unpredictable oscillations of ship shields under fire should never let a ship taken under fire meld and pass the shields of a POS or station.
CCP needs to buckle down to rewriting the new POS model (hopefully a bubbleless one) before wasting time on accessories that if written now will likely need to be largely rewritten to fit a new POS model. |
sayasic
Frontier Explorer's League Nulli Secunda
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:54:00 -
[586] - Quote
Speaking as someone who ran a small corp that had moons, I think this is a great idea! My corp ran sites in the same systems as our moons and our members knew the importance of the moons. If someone dropped these we would know within a couple hours and get them blown up.
This update may encourage huge entities to stop owning moons directly and instead rent them out giving more to smaller corps. Ahuge win in my book. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4846
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:02:00 -
[587] - Quote
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. Or... you could actually occupy the space you decide to deploy assets in with other players from your corp, alliance, coalition? Okay, you be the one to camp all of your POSes with Instacanes. You'll need enough to fast-lock a cloaky hauler--who will need to dumb enough to decloak--or to alpha an inty who might land well outside of optimal. The problem with this mechanic isn't that "living in your space can prevent it"; the problem is that the opportunity cost for the aggressor is so low compared to the massive PIA it will create for POS owners. Ironically, GSF has by far the best operational capability to blanket entire Regions with these things. Oh, really. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Chigurh Friendo
Stay Frosty.
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:14:00 -
[588] - Quote
One recurring comment in this thread that I feel compelled to address is the notion that our poor, woefully helpless POS owners will be subject to "structure grinding" ("Oh noes!!!") should they wish to eliminate hostile Mobile Siphon Units from their moon harvesting POSes. This assertion is just completely baseless, and it undermines a position already anchored (if you'll pardon the puns) in a tenuous credibility.
The new siphon module, having roughly 50,000 - 100,000 ehp will require roughly 3.3 minutes to "structure grind"... and that assumes a moderate level of damage output (500 dps vs. 100k ehp).
"That long!? Whatever will we do!? Heavens no!!"
While it is laughable to consider this interval of time "structure grinding", I'm sure that even our 20-page-thread-worth of teery-eyed, ****-posting POS-owning friends will figure out a way to speed the process along.
You see, I think we can all agree that this new 'requirement' for our API-fueled, logged off POS lords fits more aptly in the category of "POS-alt pvp aggrandizement" or "POS hygiene" than it does "structure grinding". Consider, for instance, that the aforementioned timeframes and damage rates are more akin to killing belt-rats than "structure grinding"... and that in exchange, the POS owner will get the satisfaction of a glorious Mobile Siphon Unit killmail ("Now with 10M valuation!!! Residual Goon saline sold separately!!!") on their normally useless POS-specific alt... an alt that previously would only get to enjoy brief intervals of being logged in once every two-weeks... and you'll see what I mean. Also, you'll have to understand that with this current rebranding effort from "structure grinding" to the "glorious pvp betterment of the POS alts everywhere", that I'm just trying to help you see guys the upside.
"But what if our dirty rotten scoundrel enemies drop TOO MANY Mobile Siphon Units. What then!?"
Well, far be it from me to tell you guys how to nullsec, but one option you might consider is living in your ******* space and actually responding to movements in that territory... instead of bitching about how your ******* income source ought to be an entirely logged-out AFK-based activity. |
Klyith
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
38
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:15:00 -
[589] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:It just occurred to me but this shyphon unit in principle reminds me of people who ninja salvage wrecks in high sec. and the fact that people in null sec are somewhat upset about it just spews irony. Nope, they're quite different.
When I show up in your L4 mission and start stealing wrecks, it's because I'm daring you to fight me. I just stole your lunch money, and while you sputter in spergy rage I'm standing there with my chin out, saying Take your best shot. Of course if you actually hit me you know it'll end badly for you, so you do nothing. But you could. I'm there with my criminal flag, just daring you to get into a fight for once in your life. Very Tyler Durden-esque.
These siphons are nothing like that. Nothing about how they work requires or even invites a fight. They're a flaming bag of dog poo left on my front step, and you rang the doorbell and ran away to hide. When I open the door an see this sad little prank bag. Do I stomp on it, getting hot dogshtt all over my shoe? No, I grab a trashbasket and drop it upside down to smother the fire, then take it to the trash on the curb. A pathetic kid's attempt to rile me up.
Meanwhile, there are about a thousand other goons heading to the houses of people we don't like, and they've got trashbags full of human fecal matter and gasoline. Don't get in a poop war with Goonfleet. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4847
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:29:00 -
[590] - Quote
Klyith wrote:MeBiatch wrote:It just occurred to me but this shyphon unit in principle reminds me of people who ninja salvage wrecks in high sec. and the fact that people in null sec are somewhat upset about it just spews irony. Nope, they're quite different. When I show up in your L4 mission and start stealing wrecks, it's because I'm daring you to fight me. I just stole your lunch money, and while you sputter in spergy rage I'm standing there with my chin out, saying Take your best shot. Of course if you actually hit me you know it'll end badly for you, so you do nothing. But you could. I'm there with my criminal flag, just daring you to get into a fight for once in your life. Very Tyler Durden-esque. These siphons are nothing like that. Nothing about how they work requires or even invites a fight. They're a flaming bag of dog poo left on my front step, and you rang the doorbell and ran away to hide. When I open the door an see this sad little prank bag. Do I stomp on it, getting hot dogshtt all over my shoe? No, I grab a trashbasket and drop it upside down to smother the fire, then take it to the trash on the curb. A pathetic kid's attempt to rile me up. Meanwhile, there are about a thousand other goons heading to the houses of people we don't like, and they've got trashbags full of human fecal matter and gasoline. Don't get in a poop war with Goonfleet. When you put it that way...
we're not only blobbers but cowards who abuse any new feature ?! There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:29:00 -
[591] - Quote
Someone should have to, heaven forbid, leave the safety of the shields to remove this. No to the siphon being able to be shot by POS modules. The whole point of this is to make owners be present to get the isk instead of afk money machines. |
Narffy
Dominus Imperium
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:35:00 -
[592] - Quote
1. This is going to hurt smaller POS owning corps who do not span all timezones. EVE is a MMO where groups of people are suppose to interact with friends. To interact with those friends you're going to want to be in the same timezone. This game mechanic works against this natural tendency and should not be implemented as is. Even small to medium alliances struggle to cover all timezones.
2. Using siphons to get some moon goo isn't going to be as important as denying the POS owner of their moon goo.
3. Siphons are laughably cheap.
4. Large alliance will no longer need to form a fleet of several dreads and support ships to siege a POS. Instead, they can send one guy with a blockage runner around to several POS' and drop siphons to achieve a similar effect.
5. Goons should send its 10,000 members into lowsec all with blockade runners and lay siphons at all the POS' they can find. Have them also target R8's and R16's. They can create an app to track when siphons are destroyed and what systems they're destroyed in. With the app, they can easily determine what timezones the smaller alliances and corps operate during and place new siphons as soon as the other alliances are no longer online. This could really screw up the T2 market if Goons pull it off correctly.
Perhaps you should add a 24 hour timer before the siphons activate and/or make some other changes. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4847
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:40:00 -
[593] - Quote
Narffy wrote: 4. Large alliance will no longer need to form a fleet of several dreads and support ships to siege a POS. Instead, they can send one guy with a blockage runner around to several POS' and drop siphons to achieve a similar effect.
5. Goons should send its 10,000 members into lowsec all with blockade runners and lay siphons at all the POS' they can find. Have them also target R8's and R16's. They can create an app to track when siphons are destroyed and what systems they're destroyed in. With the app, they can easily determine what timezones the smaller alliances and corps operate during and place new siphons as soon as the other alliances are no longer online. This could really screw up the T2 market if Goons pull it off correctly.
...
*shrug*
Progodlegend's elite pvp (siphon edition) squadron will hurt them more. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1116
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:49:00 -
[594] - Quote
Gorion Wassenar wrote:Someone should have to, heaven forbid, leave the safety of the shields to remove this. No to the siphon being able to be shot by POS modules. The whole point of this is to make owners be present to get the isk instead of afk money machines.
It his highly unlikely that any actual live and undelayed interaction with real players takes place in this scenario. That is really bad game design for a conflict driver.
You put down the siphon(s) in a cloakie hauler without the pos-owner being around
You pick up the loot from a siphon without the pos owner (or even the siphon unit owner) being around
You destroy the siphons without the siphon owner being around, either with posguns from within the safety of the pos, or with drones from your covops SOE ship from outside)
Once again: this is a griefing tool and not a great conflict driver. It's about as exciting as dropping and shooting SBUs but with an added financial incentive for the attacker instead.
That's a whole lot of wasted chances for something that could have generated a massive amount of smallscale pvp interactions on Corp, or Corp + friends level. We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4847
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:53:00 -
[595] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Gorion Wassenar wrote:Someone should have to, heaven forbid, leave the safety of the shields to remove this. No to the siphon being able to be shot by POS modules. The whole point of this is to make owners be present to get the isk instead of afk money machines. It his highly unlikely that any actual live and undelayed interaction with real players takes place in this scenario. That is really bad game design for a conflict driver. You put down the siphon(s) in a cloakie hauler without the pos-owner being around You pick up the loot from a siphon without the pos owner (or even the siphon unit owner) being around You destroy the siphons without the siphon owner being around, either with posguns from within the safety of the pos, or with drones from your covops SOE ship from outside) Once again: this is a griefing tool and not a great conflict driver. It's about as exciting as dropping and shooting SBUs but with an added financial incentive for the attacker instead. That's a whole lot of wasted chances for something that could have generated a massive amount of smallscale pvp interactions on Corp, or Corp + friends level. Sounds like the sort of thing a group of terrible people who shoot structures in cloaky frigate-class ships and keep running away would do.
How horrible can humans be? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:53:00 -
[596] - Quote
So POS owners having porous borders and defense is my problem? If you want to play space empire, someone is going to have to play sentry. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4847
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:54:00 -
[597] - Quote
Where's the E-HONOR in this? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Pirmasis Sparagas
Bullet Cluster
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 06:00:00 -
[598] - Quote
Costs only 20m3 to deploy, but can take 1200m3 of minerals? Sounds a little bit fishy to me |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
113
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 06:01:00 -
[599] - Quote
I can't see a downside to having to live in the area your posses are in or risk losing some output.
Funny side effect is that your own corp, alliance members or random blues can empty the Siphons and keep the materials for themselves without leadership ever knowing who stole the goo, only who set up the siphon.
So much potential for fun fun fun Baddest poster ever |
Gorn Arming
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
333
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 06:03:00 -
[600] - Quote
Have you considered creating a version that siphons POS fuel? |
|
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1117
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 06:06:00 -
[601] - Quote
Gorion Wassenar wrote:So POS owners having porous borders and defense is my problem? If you want to play space empire, someone is going to have to play sentry.
Yeah, porous borders in a world with warp core stabs, covops cloaks, covert cynos and black ops bridges. Do you know how exciting gate camping is? About as exciting as cutting yourself.
If there was some kind of timer mechanic, that would actually generate pewpew.
A big red warning to the pos owner: someone is stealing your stuff. Be there, tomorrow evening, 20.00 eve time. If you don't, your stuff is gone, if you are, a fight MAY happen, because both you, and the dude who dropped the siphon have a strong incentive to show up. We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4344
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 06:14:00 -
[602] - Quote
As much as I am for the siphon, I am not sold on it destroying minerals or reactions just because it is anchored at the POS. . |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1430
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 06:14:00 -
[603] - Quote
It's really not even worth arguing about. In under two months it will be clear that massive nullsec powerblocs have far more effective ability and patience when it comes to sov structure ping-pong than a bunch of grr goons, self-styled guerrilla, weekend-warriors on vacation from their level four mission hubs. Then goons will use it to make sov war even more eye-stabbingly nauseating than it already is. Then we can bump this thread and all have a good laugh at people's inability to apply basic reasoning to game mechanics and existing facts on the ground. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Zappity
Kurved Space
554
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 06:16:00 -
[604] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:As much as I am for the siphon, I am not sold on it destroying minerals or reactions just because it is anchored at the POS.
Fully agree. This is where the major possibilities for 'abuse' come from. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4847
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 06:26:00 -
[605] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:It's really not even worth arguing about. In under two months it will be clear that massive nullsec powerblocs have far more effective ability and patience when it comes to sov structure ping-pong than a bunch of grr goons, self-styled guerrilla, weekend-warriors on vacation from their level four mission hubs. Then goons will use it to make sov war even more eye-stabbingly nauseating than it already is. Then we can bump this thread and all have a good laugh at people's inability to apply basic reasoning to game mechanics and existing facts on the ground. No, because we will have more fun things to laugh at, such as "the whole of PL was preparing for the AT" or "we have to save our renters to help us fight gsf, so we are leaving a fight with gsf" There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Luwc
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 06:42:00 -
[606] - Quote
[instert meme here] Caption :
~ CCP ~
Implements system to steal ressources from blocs blocs use it to steal ressources from scrubs.
|
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4347
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 07:13:00 -
[607] - Quote
Luwc wrote:[instert meme here] Caption :
~ CCP ~
Implements system to steal ressources from blocs blocs use it to steal ressources from scrubs. Scrubs have stuff to steal? . |
Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 07:14:00 -
[608] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Gorion Wassenar wrote:So POS owners having porous borders and defense is my problem? If you want to play space empire, someone is going to have to play sentry. Yeah, porous borders in a world with warp core stabs, covops cloaks, covert cynos and black ops bridges. Do you know how exciting gate camping is? About as exciting as cutting yourself. If there was some kind of timer mechanic, that would actually generate pewpew. A big red warning to the pos owner: someone is stealing your stuff. Be there, tomorrow evening, 20.00 eve time. If you don't, your stuff is gone, if you are, a fight MAY happen, because both you, and the dude who dropped the siphon have a strong incentive to show up.
Yeah I totally wish smugglers and thieves would send me an ETA.
You want a space empire, you have to actually patrol it. Sorry.
|
Neave LaFontaine
United System's Commonwealth
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 07:27:00 -
[609] - Quote
pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields.
Anyone else notice the high level of goon tears in this thread? Its kinda hilarious really. "Oh noes, one of my income streams will be impacted by dirty pubbies - CCP! Fix it!"
Lol - maybe you will have to actually patrol your bloated empire now, and if you can't maybe you will have to pull back and consolidate... |
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3609
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 07:33:00 -
[610] - Quote
Klyith wrote:MeBiatch wrote:It just occurred to me but this shyphon unit in principle reminds me of people who ninja salvage wrecks in high sec. and the fact that people in null sec are somewhat upset about it just spews irony. Nope, they're quite different. When I show up in your L4 mission and start stealing wrecks, it's because I'm daring you to fight me. I just stole your lunch money, and while you sputter in spergy rage I'm standing there with my chin out, saying Take your best shot. Of course if you actually hit me you know it'll end badly for you, so you do nothing. But you could. I'm there with my criminal flag, just daring you to get into a fight for once in your life. Very Tyler Durden-esque. These siphons are nothing like that. Nothing about how they work requires or even invites a fight. They're a flaming bag of dog poo left on my front step, and you rang the doorbell and ran away to hide. When I open the door an see this sad little prank bag. Do I stomp on it, getting hot dogshtt all over my shoe? No, I grab a trashbasket and drop it upside down to smother the fire, then take it to the trash on the curb. A pathetic kid's attempt to rile me up. Meanwhile, there are about a thousand other goons heading to the houses of people we don't like, and they've got trashbags full of human fecal matter and gasoline. Don't get in a poop war with Goonfleet.
Oh for ffs you actually think stealing mission loot is manly
Look at this clown
Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Pirate Nation.
126
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 07:34:00 -
[611] - Quote
The key thing here is that this is designed to make the area lived in, first impact will be on those alliances that have moons where they only go every so often to empty it and where there are a lot of active people, what will happen is that they will be siphons applied to them and the impact will be having to guard them against that, so over time that moon becomes too much of a pain, this will happen in low sec and of course NPC 0.0. Next up will be the R64 sitting in another alliances space, because the POS owner has a huge Super back up taking out the POS is not an option, so at this point they start using siphons, if they are smart they will make sure that people who are not in the sov owning alliance do it, again the people in the local area will start controlling the moons.
I have decided to operate in an area, there are a number of moons here which the alliance is operating, but does not operate in the systems, I will siphon them because I can and reduce the value of the take making the system even more worthless to hold sov on for that alliance. I will do that because I have decided that this is my area of control, funding 2,500 siphons is of course not necessary, but 1bn worth seems a good investment for serious annoyance.
I could not help but notice this:
Krios Ahzek wrote: Ok I'll spell it out of the mentally deficient.
Renters cannot rebel. If they did, they would lose station access. Renter alliance executor corps are not some sort of democratic publord senate, they are a tyrannic council of main alliance alts. Renters have very few capital ships. They do not work with other renter corps. Even if there WAS a mass rebellion, after every death they would have to go to the nearest NPC station to reship. This is not very different from fighting a regular nullsec war, except the enemies are bad and tiny.
Do you remember that there is another structure called a Personal Structures, I am of course waiting with impatence for details of that little beauty, but this has major implications in terms of your strategic considerations, they don't need capital ships, and in any case its not so much the rebellion you have to worry about but the planted corp that will setup to tie down the main rental systems. This personal structure is the main game changer... Eve is getting interesting.
Also the Goons are going to have to be busy little bees, all those POCO's and all those POS's, I guess you will have to put back the war against N3 a bit If you do not want LOCAL go to WH space,-áand those people who think that WH space is like 0.0 but without local,-álight a cyno and try jumping to it.-á-á There is a structural issue with Eve, based on accounts with no link, vast reserves of ISK-áand plex, which makes it too easy to metagame the destruction of small alliances. |
Zeimanov Kalzumaan
Haruspex Industries Wrong Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 08:19:00 -
[612] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:The key thing here is that this is designed to make the area lived in, first impact will be on those alliances that have moons where they only go every so often to empty it and where there are a lot of active people, what will happen is that they will be siphons applied to them and the impact will be having to guard them against that, so over time that moon becomes too much of a pain, this will happen in low sec and of course NPC 0.0. Next up will be the R64 sitting in another alliances space, because the POS owner has a huge Super back up taking out the POS is not an option, so at this point they start using siphons, if they are smart they will make sure that people who are not in the sov owning alliance do it, again the people in the local area will start controlling the moons.
I have decided to operate in an area, there are a number of moons here which the alliance is operating, but does not operate in the systems, I will siphon them because I can and reduce the value of the take making the system even more worthless to hold sov on for that alliance. I will do that because I have decided that this is my area of control, funding 2,500 siphons is of course not necessary, but 1bn worth seems a good investment for serious annoyance.
I could not help but notice this:
Except you are missing the point - all the focus in on BIG ALLIANCES WILL LOSE R64 INCOME HAHAHAHAH - but the poitn about these units is they are so cheap to drop that they will be dumped on reaction POS's in lowesec - including those run by small groups. It doesn't matter that they can destroy them it will cripple the income since these groups can't check them hourly.
At 10m a pop and a cloaky blockade runner able to pack hundereds, there is no disincentive to spam these on any small group operating in NPC nullsec or lowsec. It's not an asynchronous method of warfare, it's a griefing tool to which there is no defence possible. With a cloaked dude in the system you at least can rat ect if you are careful - when he is actually AFK he can't hurt you - but for 10m a time he now can.
Shaking up big 0.0 powerblocs was the intention but all it has done is create the ultimate tool in AFK cloaky griefing. |
Joepopo
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
164
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 08:25:00 -
[613] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.
Seriously, don't mess with the API. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1117
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 08:25:00 -
[614] - Quote
Quote:Yeah I totally wish smugglers and thieves would send me an ETA. "Ohhey by the way we are going to start digging a tunnel in this section of the border. We'll both be there at noon."
You want a space empire, you have to actually patrol it. Sorry.
playing whack-a-mole with moles that only show up for seconds on a HUGE playing field is not exactly fun. a well designed feature would have introduced meaningful interaction for both parties. the currently planned implementation avoids every possible interaction between players. that's just plain stupid We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1288
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 08:30:00 -
[615] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:playing whack-a-mole with moles that only show up for seconds on a HUGE playing field is not exactly fun. a well designed feature would have introduced meaningful interaction for both parties. the currently planned implementation avoids every possible interaction between players. that's just plain stupid Too bad they don't show up on scan. Nyan |
Aman Sand
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 08:31:00 -
[616] - Quote
Moon goo prices spikes -> t2 ship prices spikes -> PLEX prices spikes. It's time to buy PLEX. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1117
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 08:36:00 -
[617] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Gilbaron wrote:playing whack-a-mole with moles that only show up for seconds on a HUGE playing field is not exactly fun. a well designed feature would have introduced meaningful interaction for both parties. the currently planned implementation avoids every possible interaction between players. that's just plain stupid Too bad they don't show up on scan.
i am not talking about the siphon unit, i am talking about the player dropping them or picking up loot from them We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Pirate Nation.
126
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 08:36:00 -
[618] - Quote
Zeimanov Kalzumaan wrote:Dracvlad wrote:The key thing here is that this is designed to make the area lived in, first impact will be on those alliances that have moons where they only go every so often to empty it and where there are a lot of active people, what will happen is that they will be siphons applied to them and the impact will be having to guard them against that, so over time that moon becomes too much of a pain, this will happen in low sec and of course NPC 0.0. Next up will be the R64 sitting in another alliances space, because the POS owner has a huge Super back up taking out the POS is not an option, so at this point they start using siphons, if they are smart they will make sure that people who are not in the sov owning alliance do it, again the people in the local area will start controlling the moons.
I have decided to operate in an area, there are a number of moons here which the alliance is operating, but does not operate in the systems, I will siphon them because I can and reduce the value of the take making the system even more worthless to hold sov on for that alliance. I will do that because I have decided that this is my area of control, funding 2,500 siphons is of course not necessary, but 1bn worth seems a good investment for serious annoyance.
I could not help but notice this:
Except you are missing the point - all the focus in on BIG ALLIANCES WILL LOSE R64 INCOME HAHAHAHAH - but the poitn about these units is they are so cheap to drop that they will be dumped on reaction POS's in lowesec - including those run by small groups. It doesn't matter that they can destroy them it will cripple the income since these groups can't check them hourly. At 10m a pop and a cloaky blockade runner able to pack hundereds, there is no disincentive to spam these on any small group operating in NPC nullsec or lowsec. It's not an asynchronous method of warfare, it's a griefing tool to which there is no defence possible. With a cloaked dude in the system you at least can rat ect if you are careful - when he is actually AFK he can't hurt you - but for 10m a time he now can. Shaking up big 0.0 powerblocs was the intention but all it has done is create the ultimate tool in AFK cloaky griefing.
It is an issue for small entities, but at the end of the day they still have to manage and run their POS's and if that requires them to be active and control their asset then thats life. They will have to have a relationship with the people in the area that are in a different TZ so that they can remove the Siphon, lots of potential merc work there. In fact I might do that, as I can cover a lot of TZ's I can do a siphon cleaning service for them, all they have to do is make me +10 and pay me. If you do not want LOCAL go to WH space,-áand those people who think that WH space is like 0.0 but without local,-álight a cyno and try jumping to it.-á-á There is a structural issue with Eve, based on accounts with no link, vast reserves of ISK-áand plex, which makes it too easy to metagame the destruction of small alliances. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2283
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 08:38:00 -
[619] - Quote
grr siphons Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
997
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 08:45:00 -
[620] - Quote
This is one of the best sandbox features added to the game ever. Thank you CCP. The Tears Must Flow |
|
Jessica Danikov
Perkone Caldari State
126
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 08:46:00 -
[621] - Quote
Just like the Tobin Tax, it sounds like a good idea, but will have counter-intuitive effects. The siphon unit overall reduces supply, which drives up costs (especially if it outstrips demand). Blocs have the most capacity to absorb and capitalize on such changes, especially if they outsource their moon mining (make it someone elses problem).
Most of the siplhon unit's cost will be reflected in consumer prices of T2- not that it's necessarily a bad thing in itself, I just don't think this is going to affect Blocs and rebalance things as much as people intuit. |
Einstein II
1st Archaeological Company
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 08:55:00 -
[622] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3752692#post3752692
announcement of a new type of profit at the expense of WH w static null sec |
Royaldo
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch. Sev3rance
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 08:57:00 -
[623] - Quote
How will this generate any sort of pvp when you have no idea **** is actually happening? |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
61
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:04:00 -
[624] - Quote
Neave LaFontaine wrote:Anyone else notice the high level of goon tears in this thread?
You know, it never ceases to amaze me that with GSF up over 10,000 people, to say nothing of the rest of the CFC, people see a half-dozen goons pointing out blatantly obvious flaws in mechanics (and/or trolling the people who inevitably crop up to defend anything purely because the goons say it's not a good idea) and decide that's a 'high level of goon tears'.
Really? One of the largest, most active groups in the game, with a history of delving into the mechanics of the game looking for the loopholes and problems CCP refuses to see until GSF goes ahead and rubs someone's nose in it, has multiple people posting in a thread about mechanics - the very same people who post on all of these mechanics threads, no less - and you think that's somehow significant? |
Ludi Burek
Toilet Emergency JIHADASQUAD
266
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:07:00 -
[625] - Quote
Royaldo wrote:How will this generate any sort of pvp when you have no idea **** is actually happening?
Ever been roofied? It will be like that |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
18
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:13:00 -
[626] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Neave LaFontaine wrote:Anyone else notice the high level of goon tears in this thread? You know, it never ceases to amaze me that with GSF up over 10,000 people, to say nothing of the rest of the CFC, people see a half-dozen goons pointing out blatantly obvious flaws in mechanics (and/or trolling the people who inevitably crop up to defend anything purely because the goons say it's not a good idea) and decide that's a 'high level of goon tears'. Really? One of the largest, most active groups in the game, with a history of delving into the mechanics of the game looking for the loopholes and problems CCP refuses to see until GSF goes ahead and rubs someone's nose in it, has multiple people posting in a thread about mechanics - the very same people who post on all of these mechanics threads, no less - and you think that's somehow significant?
Never underestimate the power of confirmation bias from the "elite PVP players who hate goons (which is most of them)" of eve. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Lord Drakandu
Piratas Leprosos Guineanos Pirate Coalition
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:18:00 -
[627] - Quote
To see to cry to the alliances of 0.0 is absolutely delicious. I end that some few ones control everything. |
Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution
113
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:39:00 -
[628] - Quote
Good times,
I see no reason why I need to spend a single ISK on a Siphon, when I could just fly around stealing from everyone else's siphons.
Easy life. Don't Panic.
|
Turfrider
Reikoku Pandemic Legion
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:40:00 -
[629] - Quote
This is awesome. Good job CCP. About time.
All the people crying about this calling it "horribly unbalanced" lol @ you. Moons are inheriently horribly unbalanced, worried about your SRP? I'm just happy more of you will be forced into the belts to earn a crust so I can kill you :)
Ill be putting 100's of these things up as soon as physically possible, good game. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Pirate Nation.
126
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:43:00 -
[630] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Arrendis wrote:Neave LaFontaine wrote:Anyone else notice the high level of goon tears in this thread? You know, it never ceases to amaze me that with GSF up over 10,000 people, to say nothing of the rest of the CFC, people see a half-dozen goons pointing out blatantly obvious flaws in mechanics (and/or trolling the people who inevitably crop up to defend anything purely because the goons say it's not a good idea) and decide that's a 'high level of goon tears'. Really? One of the largest, most active groups in the game, with a history of delving into the mechanics of the game looking for the loopholes and problems CCP refuses to see until GSF goes ahead and rubs someone's nose in it, has multiple people posting in a thread about mechanics - the very same people who post on all of these mechanics threads, no less - and you think that's somehow significant? Never underestimate the power of confirmation bias from the "elite PVP players who hate goons (which is most of them)" of eve.
Let me put this bluntly, in terms of Sov war the CFC is the elite of Eve. If you do not want LOCAL go to WH space,-áand those people who think that WH space is like 0.0 but without local,-álight a cyno and try jumping to it.-á-á There is a structural issue with Eve, based on accounts with no link, vast reserves of ISK-áand plex, which makes it too easy to metagame the destruction of small alliances. |
|
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
908
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:51:00 -
[631] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:Good times,
I see no reason why I need to spend a single ISK on a Siphon, when I could just fly around stealing from everyone else's siphons.
Easy life.
I doubt there'll be anything worth stealing. Siphons around worthwhile moons will get killed, siphons at bad moons will just give you 1000 m3 of atmospheric gases or something even less useful. Wooo.
The more I think about this, the more it seems to be that the real problem is the automatic moon mining itself. While a mining POS does has a role as something worth fighting over and as a location for large battles, the AFK nature is bad, along with the API tools that promote it. So, maybe something like moving moon minerals to mining anomalies and creating a proper nullsec POS-based industry to replace mining POS as strategic targets would be better? Of course, you'd also have to remove all jump mechanics to stop an entity simply jumping supplies from Jita to bypass an industrial interdiction campaign... so yeah, back to the siphon then! |
Kranky Hakaari
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:54:00 -
[632] - Quote
i can see alot of angry goons shitting bricks. Any thing that gives me the opportunity to stick it to Big boys is welcomed...yeah you goonie |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
1009
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 09:58:00 -
[633] - Quote
Although i like the idea of this siphon unit, this firs iteration is a little underwhelming and i don't like the fact that it is yet another passive activity being added to eve. That said, i'm sure some people will have fun with it. minuscule output won't be worth the time for me personally.
There should be a second version (tech 2 maybe) where the yield it massively increased by players on grid. For example, transferring energy to the t2 siphon could allow you to fill it up in one hour. However, when you deploy the tech 2 version, the POS owner receives a notification.
This would reward players for active participation, increase activity in space and draw fights away from gates. +1 |
Zappity
Kurved Space
554
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:04:00 -
[634] - Quote
The real question is, where's Harry? Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
nXus
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:07:00 -
[635] - Quote
Concerned that the false API tracking thing is going to completely break existing API tools that people rely on. So we'll see how the false reporting works in reality when people are emptying/shuffling silos etc.
Expecting T2 prices to go crazy. If these are spammed that's already 20% supply lost from the game and if it turns people off running the reaction chains then that's additional supply gone from the system. Add market manipulation and it's going to be a pretty crazy ride. Time will tell I guess..
I don't see this affecting large entities that don't base their ship doctrines on t2 ships. Expect T1 and T3 ships to become the norm. |
Corvald Tyrska
Dha'Vargar
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:08:00 -
[636] - Quote
Is there anything preventing the POS owner deploying these inside their own POS shield? If you are willing to take a 20% loss on income then you can effectively make your POS completely immune to other people's siphons since they siphon in order of deployment. Login to empty them to the silo once a day and you're all good. Admittedly you take a 20% reduction in capacity but for the more valuable materials that could be well worth the price for not having to deal with these |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1349
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:12:00 -
[637] - Quote
Corvald Tyrska wrote:Is there anything preventing the POS owner deploying these inside their own POS shield?
Dev Blog wrote:Siphon units must be deployed close to a POS, outside of shields to a maximum distance of 50 kilometers from the control tower.
Reading is hard right? |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
61
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:19:00 -
[638] - Quote
Turfrider wrote:This is awesome. Good job CCP. About time.
All the people crying about this calling it "horribly unbalanced" lol @ you. Moons are inheriently horribly unbalanced, worried about your SRP? I'm just happy more of you will be forced into the belts to earn a crust so I can kill you :)
Ill be putting 100's of these things up as soon as physically possible, good game.
So you'll be spending billions on things that will just get blown up? If that's how PL wants to waste their money, man, go for it. I think we all know whose moons you'll be looking at. Who knows, maybe we'll get bounties for blowing them up. |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
61
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:20:00 -
[639] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Let me put this bluntly, in terms of Sov war the CFC is the elite of Eve.
Aww... Don't say that, you'll upset N3 and PL.
|
Atlantis Fuanan
Uncharted Skies Cerberus Unleashed
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:21:00 -
[640] - Quote
Good job on the siphon unit, i just love the way it will harm the "big guys". But I don't see why the owner should be abel to see WHO placed it. I'd rather leave it anonymous. Why? For the first, a thief won't let a note back with his name on it. For the second, if done by a small corp, "bug guys" could go mad and throw blobs at them, while it encourages PVP, this can't be called PVP in the end (small vs big :(). AND for the third, it could also be done by some own corp buddies and cause some conspiracy. A big part of EVE is trust right? Things that would make EVE better: NRDS - Remove Local - Balance Cloak - Sov-Mechanic Changes - Less QQ |
|
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
352
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:33:00 -
[641] - Quote
To the people complaining this won't create conflict, the siphons will never generate conflict as long as the POS owner can use the guns to destroy them. APIs and notifications wouldn't increase conflict, only make it easier for people who don't monitor their space to maximize their profit. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
61
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:36:00 -
[642] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:To the people complaining this won't create conflict, the siphons will never generate conflict as long as the POS owner can use the guns to destroy them. APIs and notifications wouldn't increase conflict, only make it easier for people who don't monitor their space to maximize their profit.
I don't think the issue is 'they are bad because they won't create conflict', so much as it is 'hey, CCP, you're claiming these will create conflict, and they blatantly won't.' Which is a subtle thing, but it's not the lack of content being the source of irritation, but the blatant failure of CCP to see the blindingly obvious way this plays out. |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
398
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:42:00 -
[643] - Quote
Dear goons
Please never, ever, ever change.
New update on the siphon stats: Harvest 30 pages of goon tears per day . |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
398
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:43:00 -
[644] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:To the people complaining this won't create conflict, the siphons will never generate conflict as long as the POS owner can use the guns to destroy them. APIs and notifications wouldn't increase conflict, only make it easier for people who don't monitor their space to maximize their profit. I don't think the issue is 'they are bad because they won't create conflict', so much as it is 'hey, CCP, you're claiming these will create conflict, and they blatantly won't.' Which is a subtle thing, but it's not the lack of content being the source of irritation, but the blatant failure of CCP to see the blindingly obvious way this plays out.
I think you both misunderstand the meaning of "conflict". |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:46:00 -
[645] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Arrendis wrote:Neave LaFontaine wrote:Anyone else notice the high level of goon tears in this thread? You know, it never ceases to amaze me that with GSF up over 10,000 people, to say nothing of the rest of the CFC, people see a half-dozen goons pointing out blatantly obvious flaws in mechanics (and/or trolling the people who inevitably crop up to defend anything purely because the goons say it's not a good idea) and decide that's a 'high level of goon tears'. Really? One of the largest, most active groups in the game, with a history of delving into the mechanics of the game looking for the loopholes and problems CCP refuses to see until GSF goes ahead and rubs someone's nose in it, has multiple people posting in a thread about mechanics - the very same people who post on all of these mechanics threads, no less - and you think that's somehow significant? Never underestimate the power of confirmation bias from the "elite PVP players who hate goons (which is most of them)" of eve. Let me put this bluntly, in terms of Sov war the CFC is the elite of Eve.
Probably true. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
398
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:50:00 -
[646] - Quote
Conflict driver 1
This should be blindingly obvious: very few people will destroy a siphon without checking/taking its contents first. Anchor a siphon, anchor a bubble, cloak just outside. Kill the POS gunner in an iteron who comes out to grab back his moon mins.
Conflict driver 2
Anchor a siphon, they destroy it with POS guns. When they go offline anchor another, they destroy it. Repeat. Sooner or later they will have to take proper precautions to stop you doing this, or give up and let you steal goo.
Conflict driver 3
Small gang X sets up siphons all over alliance Y's space. Prior to this mechanic, small gang X is essentially irrelevant to alliance Y, but now they are at least an annoyance and at best a many-hundred million isk a day sink that MUST be addressed by force
Conflict driver 4
Alliance X attacks alliance Y in a sov invasion. Alliance Y pays corp Z to go siphon EVERY R32/64 moon of Alliance X repeatedly. Alliance X loses income, or it's POS managers burn out. Alliance Y counterattacks.
Conflict driver 5
Alliance X RENTS moons in its space to Renter Y. Those moons get constantly siphoned. Either Renter Y gets pissed at Alliance X for not keeping the roaming siphon gangs out, or else it cant afford it's rent.
Theres an infinite number of other scenarios. This will be interesting! |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
398
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:50:00 -
[647] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Arrendis wrote:Neave LaFontaine wrote:Anyone else notice the high level of goon tears in this thread? You know, it never ceases to amaze me that with GSF up over 10,000 people, to say nothing of the rest of the CFC, people see a half-dozen goons pointing out blatantly obvious flaws in mechanics (and/or trolling the people who inevitably crop up to defend anything purely because the goons say it's not a good idea) and decide that's a 'high level of goon tears'. Really? One of the largest, most active groups in the game, with a history of delving into the mechanics of the game looking for the loopholes and problems CCP refuses to see until GSF goes ahead and rubs someone's nose in it, has multiple people posting in a thread about mechanics - the very same people who post on all of these mechanics threads, no less - and you think that's somehow significant? Never underestimate the power of confirmation bias from the "elite PVP players who hate goons (which is most of them)" of eve. Let me put this bluntly, in terms of Sov war the CFC is the elite of Eve. Probably true.
Only because in Eve sov war numbers and timezone coverage >>>>>> all |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
352
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:53:00 -
[648] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Quote:Yeah I totally wish smugglers and thieves would send me an ETA. "Ohhey by the way we are going to start digging a tunnel in this section of the border. We'll both be there at noon."
You want a space empire, you have to actually patrol it. Sorry.
playing whack-a-mole with moles that only show up for seconds on a HUGE playing field is not exactly fun. a well designed feature would have introduced meaningful interaction for both parties. the currently planned implementation avoids every possible interaction between players. that's just plain stupid Time to scrap moon mining then! How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
599
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:56:00 -
[649] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote: Time to scrap moon mining then!
Moon mining is not, and has never been, a good kind of gameplay mechanic.
|
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
352
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:57:00 -
[650] - Quote
Royaldo wrote:How will this generate any sort of pvp when you have no idea **** is actually happening?
It wouldn't generate PVP if you did know it was happening, you'd blap them with POS guns and go back to doing whatever you were before.
If you're occupying the space where your towers are this be a problem. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
|
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
746
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:01:00 -
[651] - Quote
Lallante wrote:Dear goons
Please never, ever, ever change.
New update on the siphon stats: Harvest 30 pages of goon tears per day .
I never get tired of reading "lol goon tears!!!1" posts. You know, I don't pay a lot of attention to this dumb game, but I've seen this play out numerous times over the years exactly this way:
CCP: Presenting new feature X! Goons: X is horribly unbalanced. Pubbies: Hahaha goonie tears goonie tears!!!!1 Goons: vv Well okay then, we're going to exploit the hell out of X. Pubbies: Goons are exploiting X! CCP: We're nerfing X. Pubbies: Hahaha goonie tears goonie tears!!!!1
I mean, y'all literally have the long term memory of that guy from Momento. Is it really any wonder why we have so little regard for the vast majority of you? |
Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution
115
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:02:00 -
[652] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote: Time to scrap moon mining then!
Moon mining is not, and has never been, a good kind of gameplay mechanic.
At least not whiles it's AFK passive income.
Moon mining should be something a player has to get into a ship and undock for. Don't Panic.
|
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1349
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:05:00 -
[653] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote: Time to scrap moon mining then!
Moon mining is not, and has never been, a good kind of gameplay mechanic. At least not whiles it's AFK passive income. Moon mining should be something a player has to get into a ship and undock for. Please explain to me how you take a moon from someone without undocking?
POSes are not passive income. POSes are PvP income. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1121
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:05:00 -
[654] - Quote
Quote:Conflict driver 1
This should be blindingly obvious: very few people will destroy a siphon without checking/taking its contents first. Anchor a siphon, anchor a bubble, cloak just outside. Kill the POS gunner in an iteron who comes out to grab back his moon mins.
i actually see this as a pvp opportunity. you may kill a T1 Hauler. Awesome and exciting PVP content. especially the "wait for X hours for someone to log in" part
Quote:Conflict driver 2
Anchor a siphon, they destroy it with POS guns. When they go offline anchor another, they destroy it. Repeat. Sooner or later they will have to take proper precautions to stop you doing this, or give up and let you steal goo.
both, the anchoring and the destruction are incredibly boring activities. Can you please tell me about those "proper precautions you plan to take ? an ocean of bubble around your pos ? Sounds exciting. Hint: there is no practical way to stop someone in a cloakie ship.
Quote:Conflict driver 3
Small gang X sets up siphons all over alliance Y's space. Prior to this mechanic, small gang X is essentially irrelevant to alliance Y, but now they are at least an annoyance and at best a many-hundred million isk a day sink that MUST be addressed by force
please elaborate how you want to adress this ? by rapecaging the station this small gang stages from ? Sounds really exciting and fun.
Quote:Conflict driver 4
Alliance X attacks alliance Y in a sov invasion. Alliance Y pays corp Z to go siphon EVERY R32/64 moon of Alliance X repeatedly. Alliance X loses income, or it's POS managers burn out. Alliance Y counterattacks.
Yes please, let's all **** of people in leadership positions even more. their life is way to easy nowadays.
Quote:Conflict driver 5
Alliance X RENTS moons in its space to Renter Y. Those moons get constantly siphoned. Either Renter Y gets pissed at Alliance X for not keeping the roaming siphon gangs out, or else it cant afford it's rent.
there won't be roaming gangs. there will be roaming cloakie haulers. We as landlords can do absolutely nothing against this. just like it is with AFK-Cloakies or roaming BLOPs gangs today.
Theres an infinite number of other scenarios. This will be interesting
no, it won't We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
748
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:05:00 -
[655] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote: Time to scrap moon mining then!
Moon mining is not, and has never been, a good kind of gameplay mechanic. At least not whiles it's AFK passive income. Moon mining should be something a player has to get into a ship and undock for.
Because belt mining is totally not an AFK mechanic. |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
692
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:09:00 -
[656] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:SMT008 wrote:I guess I'll just spam the hell out of them and see what happens/how much money I'll get/how much tears I'll get.
Happy times for everyone but the one who gets his stuff stolen. so i heard TRI is reforming... you upset some of your brosefs are leaving?
My brosefs will be brosefs until death do us apart. Being in another internet space alliance is outside of my giving-a-damn zone.
Anyway. What I actually want to see is the other sorts of deployable. Especially the depot thing. |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
352
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:11:00 -
[657] - Quote
Lallante wrote:Arrendis wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:To the people complaining this won't create conflict, the siphons will never generate conflict as long as the POS owner can use the guns to destroy them. APIs and notifications wouldn't increase conflict, only make it easier for people who don't monitor their space to maximize their profit. I don't think the issue is 'they are bad because they won't create conflict', so much as it is 'hey, CCP, you're claiming these will create conflict, and they blatantly won't.' Which is a subtle thing, but it's not the lack of content being the source of irritation, but the blatant failure of CCP to see the blindingly obvious way this plays out. I think you both misunderstand the meaning of "conflict".
People in EVE usually associate conflict with PVP, not with two opposing forces/interests. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
599
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:18:00 -
[658] - Quote
The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment.
|
KAT3
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:22:00 -
[659] - Quote
I can remember when player owned stations where introduced. We had to fuel them with small industrial ships, and heavily guarded freighter fleets were used to go to empire to bring back the fuel necessary to keep them running. Then Poses became the tool by which an entity would challenge a corporation's sov holdings. Pos work was unbearably time consuming and 0.0 players wanted to pvp instead of putting up, taking down (which was painfully slow work) and tending to poses. CCP started to give some help - and then more help ! Challenging sov no longer required having the most poses in a given system. Jump freighters, fuel blocks, poses that only need to be fueled once every 30 days, and poses that can be set up and taken down relatively quickly compared to days of old. Now CCP feels a need to balance all the buffs they have given to Pos maintenance and upkeep. This seems to be a cyclical pattern not with just poses but with all aspects of the game. First we buff, then we nerf, then we buff, then we nerf, or we introduce some new content that is suppose to re-balance the unbalance we created in the past.. I guess it does keep a lot of programmers working in Iceland, and hey -- we all get free program upgrades full of buffs and nerfs. |
Zappity
Kurved Space
557
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:22:00 -
[660] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Lallante wrote:Dear goons
Please never, ever, ever change.
New update on the siphon stats: Harvest 30 pages of goon tears per day . I never get tired of reading "lol goon tears!!!1" posts. You know, I don't pay a lot of attention to this dumb game, but I've seen this play out numerous times over the years exactly this way: CCP: Presenting new feature X! Goons: X is horribly unbalanced. Pubbies: Hahaha goonie tears goonie tears!!!!1 Goons: v v Well okay then, we're going to exploit the hell out of X. Pubbies: Goons are exploiting X! CCP: We're nerfing X. Pubbies: Hahaha goonie tears goonie tears!!!!1 I mean, y'all literally have the long term memory of that guy from Momento. Is it really any wonder that we have so little regard for the vast majority of you?
That is quite a naive comment when you actively cultivate your collective persona as griefers and scammers.
Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC be? Because whatever the truth, I guarantee that the vast majority of pubbies would say 'exactly the same'. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
|
Bi-Mi Lansatha
RillaCorp The Kadeshi
218
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:23:00 -
[661] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:...While the statistics and numbers are subject to change pending final balancing...
---Prices and material components are still being worked on, but should be in a ballpark of 10 million.---
---This will be a small version (20 m-¦), so carrying one, or even several, is not much of a constraint for most ships.---
---The stealing happens on the production cycles (once per hour).---
Caveat - I am not a Goon nor have I ever own been involved in Moon Goo.
The price and size of the Mobile Siphon Unit are good (cheap and easily deployed), but the extraction time seems bad. The POS owners should be given an opportunity to take counter action, and it isn't really reasonable for them to be expected to be online 24 hours a day. Change the extraction times to something longer (24 hours?). Active Corps/Alliances should be able to sweep their major moons for MSUs during that period, while those that AFK will suffer.
|
Zappity
Kurved Space
557
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:26:00 -
[662] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment.
Wormhole reaction ones would be good. Plenty of afk POSes out there. I hope they come in 1.1. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1290
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:26:00 -
[663] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment. So what you're saying is that a bunch of players are going to put siphons on lots of moons and then lots of people are going to be flying around fighting each other for the loot?
That sounds like an excellent feature. Nyan |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:26:00 -
[664] - Quote
Did I hear Goons crying in my neighbourhood? Trollface.jpg
It's easy to say "adapt or die", until you have to adapt yourself. WTB Hypocrisy |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
600
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:28:00 -
[665] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment. So what you're saying is that a bunch of players are going to put siphons on lots of moons and then lots of people are going to be flying around fighting each other for the loot? That sounds like an excellent feature.
No... lots of people will fly cloaky haulers and nick the loot. And there will be no fighting, because there is a POS full of guns on grid which will indiscriminately blap ganker and gankee alike.
...and then no one will put up new siphons and the feature dies an ignoble death. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:37:00 -
[666] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment. So what you're saying is that a bunch of players are going to put siphons on lots of moons and then lots of people are going to be flying around fighting each other for the loot? That sounds like an excellent feature. No... lots of people will fly cloaky haulers and nick the loot. And there will be no fighting, because there is a POS full of guns on grid which will indiscriminately blap ganker and gankee alike. ...and then no one will put up new siphons and the feature dies an ignoble death.
Simple, we kill the batman
Come on, you can always go to another undefended and hardly visited nullsec to steal more moon goo |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
4079
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:53:00 -
[667] - Quote
This is totally unrelated, but my ADD forces me to tell everybody that i have just realised why SoniClover capitalises the C in his name...
Awesome stuff, btw! |
Callduron
Corporate Scum Northern Associates.
533
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:54:00 -
[668] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. Good point. Afk playing is getting to be really lame. This might make it worse :(
No it won't.
Currently a moon harvests all month with no player input. Nothing could make that worse short of being able to teleport the goo to Jita. Also for all moons are meant to be conflict drivers they rarely are as it's so prohibitively hard to get a fleet together capable of contesting a moon owned by a major bloc, eg Goons or PL.
When a siphon is placed that's a chance for a defender to decloak and point him. A defender in a stealth bomber could sit outside his pos all day holding thieves in place for the pos guns to kill.
When a siphon is in system it's content. People will scan them down, visit them empty them.
When a siphon is attacked it's content. Maybe the attacker has a hotdrop lined up for when the defenders send a couple of battleships to shoot down the silo.
Silos will draw attention to money moons. Just as people run a lot more hidden sites now that we see the red diamond flash when we enter a system so will people think about conquering a pos when our notice is drawn to the fact it's spewing out dyspro.
More defenders will undock to clear their space of silos. These people will inevitably tangle with roaming gangs. In fact roaming gangs can lay out silos as bait to draw defenders out of stations.
We're going to see a ton of extra fights generated over moon goo which is currently horribly boring. It's boring even to own money moons, just a chore. Changing it to something that needs to be defended and protected quite simply adds fights to the game. CAOD: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
197
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:55:00 -
[669] - Quote
Lallante wrote:
Theres an infinite number of other scenarios. This will be interesting!
Scenario A
Null-sec alliances run around dropping cheap siphons on any r64 and r32 moons they don't control. They're rich enough to spam scores of cheap siphons per moon and not even care too much about collecting the contents.
R64 and R32 mineral supply drop off heavily, especially if some specific materials are focused on. R64 supply can potentially be cut by 75% There is huge market fluctuation as T2 materials adjust to the reduced supply, resulting in doubled Tech 2 prices within a few days.
Eventually people run low on r64 material reserves and T2 prices continue to rise sharply after several months.
GoonSwarm engages in a series of market manipulation moves alongside Burn Jita-style events to ensure further disruption of the market. We'll probably even spam these on low-sec reaction farms solely to grief the owners.
The net result is very expensive T2 ships and mods, GoonSwarm gets richer, and a bunch of pubbies quit running reactions and whine to the forums about grrrrgoooons ruining the game. Thus creating the next generation of posters who won't believe our warnings over CCP's next broken feature.
Scenario B
Just kidding, there are no other scenarios. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
4079
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:55:00 -
[670] - Quote
Oh and... couldn't you have chosen an even darker screenshot of it? /s |
|
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
474
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:55:00 -
[671] - Quote
In response to these siphons, the price of all moon goo has gone up.
Thanks everyone for even more free isk. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
748
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:55:00 -
[672] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Lallante wrote:Dear goons
Please never, ever, ever change.
New update on the siphon stats: Harvest 30 pages of goon tears per day . I never get tired of reading "lol goon tears!!!1" posts. You know, I don't pay a lot of attention to this dumb game, but I've seen this play out numerous times over the years exactly this way: CCP: Presenting new feature X! Goons: X is horribly unbalanced. Pubbies: Hahaha goonie tears goonie tears!!!!1 Goons: v v Well okay then, we're going to exploit the hell out of X. Pubbies: Goons are exploiting X! CCP: We're nerfing X. Pubbies: Hahaha goonie tears goonie tears!!!!1 I mean, y'all literally have the long term memory of that guy from Memento. Is it really any wonder that we have so little regard for the vast majority of you? That is quite a naive comment when you actively cultivate your collective persona as griefers and scammers. Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC? Because whatever the truth, I guarantee that the vast majority of pubbies would say 'exactly the same'.
That is quite a dumb response when you consider that this has literally happened over and over in publicly accessible sites that you can still search and read. |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
601
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:57:00 -
[673] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment. So what you're saying is that a bunch of players are going to put siphons on lots of moons and then lots of people are going to be flying around fighting each other for the loot? That sounds like an excellent feature. No... lots of people will fly cloaky haulers and nick the loot. And there will be no fighting, because there is a POS full of guns on grid which will indiscriminately blap ganker and gankee alike. ...and then no one will put up new siphons and the feature dies an ignoble death. Simple, we kill the batman Come on, you can always go to another undefended and hardly visited nullsec to steal more moon goo
See where I said "outside of null" ?
kthxbye |
Callduron
Corporate Scum Northern Associates.
533
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:01:00 -
[674] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote: Time to scrap moon mining then!
Moon mining is not, and has never been, a good kind of gameplay mechanic. At least not while it's AFK passive income. Moon mining should be something a player has to get into a ship and undock for.
If we see 2 siphons on every moon then it will be. CAOD: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
198
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:05:00 -
[675] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Helicity Boson wrote: See where I said "outside of null" ?
kthxbye
We've been explicity telling you over the last few pages that we're going to be spamming these things all over the map, including low-sec, solely to grief the owners. They're so cheap it's actually a more cost-effective method of griefing than suicide-ganking, which we currently sink billions of ISK a week into.
So yes, they are going to be used. Because they're the best griefing tool since remote doomsdays, only this time they affect the entire map. |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
601
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:08:00 -
[676] - Quote
xttz wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Helicity Boson wrote: See where I said "outside of null" ?
kthxbye
We've been explicity telling you over the last few pages that we're going to be spamming these things all over the map, including low-sec, solely to grief the owners. They're so cheap it's actually a more cost-effective method of griefing than suicide-ganking, which we currently sink billions of ISK a week into. So yes, they are going to be used. Because they're the best griefing tool since Titan POS bumping, only this time they affect nearly everyone to some degree.
Feel absolutely free. If you had any idea who I was you'd know I celebrate this sort of thing. I will also gladly go around emptying the siphons you so generously put up for me. :) |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
749
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:12:00 -
[677] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:xttz wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Helicity Boson wrote: See where I said "outside of null" ?
kthxbye
We've been explicity telling you over the last few pages that we're going to be spamming these things all over the map, including low-sec, solely to grief the owners. They're so cheap it's actually a more cost-effective method of griefing than suicide-ganking, which we currently sink billions of ISK a week into. So yes, they are going to be used. Because they're the best griefing tool since Titan POS bumping, only this time they affect nearly everyone to some degree. Feel absolutely free. If you had any idea who I was you'd know I celebrate this sort of thing. I will also gladly go around emptying the siphons you so generously put up for me. :)
I think you can consider it payment for the service you're providing by keeping our griefing tool running for another 24 hours. |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
602
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:18:00 -
[678] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:xttz wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Helicity Boson wrote: See where I said "outside of null" ?
kthxbye
We've been explicity telling you over the last few pages that we're going to be spamming these things all over the map, including low-sec, solely to grief the owners. They're so cheap it's actually a more cost-effective method of griefing than suicide-ganking, which we currently sink billions of ISK a week into. So yes, they are going to be used. Because they're the best griefing tool since Titan POS bumping, only this time they affect nearly everyone to some degree. Feel absolutely free. If you had any idea who I was you'd know I celebrate this sort of thing. I will also gladly go around emptying the siphons you so generously put up for me. :) I think you can consider it payment for the service you're providing by keeping our griefing tool running for another 24 hours.
I have a pretty good relationship with goons when it comes to griefing as you may recall :)
However my point stands, no entities outside of null will bother extensively putting them up because chances of a payoff are likely low.
If goons want to spend the investment to place them, and you certainly can as evidenced by your generous sponsoring of my last hulkageddon event, that's great for people like me.
Mechanically the system is bad of course, which is what you guys have been trying to say but the bears can't hear because they like to act like 3 year olds going "goon/pirate tears!" at every opportunity.
Perhaps if the material was not actually removed from the POS unless taken from the siphon, and returned if the siphon was destroyed it'd make a bit more sense... though I imagine the coding on that would be infernal. |
Igor Nappi
Perkone Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:22:00 -
[679] - Quote
I don't find it realistic for any single entity, not even the CFC, to seed these all over the universe and keep emptying the goo and replacing any destroyed ones for any sort of extended period. This would be a remarkable feat and I guess in this case it could be argued that the feature succeeded in providing a lot of content for a large group of players :) |
Krom Thomson
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:22:00 -
[680] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Having the asset API lie about the contents of silos is the wrong choice in 100% of cases. If you can't build a feature while returning accurate API data, then you need to design a better feature. I cannot believe anyone though that returning INACCURATE API DATA was ever an acceptable choice. Holy ******* ****. Two step wrote:I was talking about that you don't make it send notifications, but any large corp can have enough assets API keys to be able to detect siphoning within an hour.
Does the siphon show up in the lauching pilot's API as well? The assets API doesn't work this way. It has a 6-hour cache timer which is shared across all corporation keys -- you can't make multiple corporate keys and have the assets API refresh more often. sadly i would have to agree that having the api feedback lie to you is the wrong way to do it |
|
Krom Thomson
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:28:00 -
[681] - Quote
Turfrider wrote:This is awesome. Good job CCP. About time.
All the people crying about this calling it "horribly unbalanced" lol @ you. Moons are inheriently horribly unbalanced, worried about your SRP? I'm just happy more of you will be forced into the belts to earn a crust so I can kill you :)
Ill be putting 100's of these things up as soon as physically possible, good game.
ok just let me know so i can come steal from it :)
|
Krom Thomson
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:29:00 -
[682] - Quote
Now my only question is why can't we pick them up and move them? |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
3081
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:30:00 -
[683] - Quote
Always amazing to see the masses of player to afraid to go to null to shoot goons but brave enough to shoot off their mouths at goons on some forum. Up until this year I've made a career of shooting goons and I don't even hate them as much as these forum warriors do.
I mention this because people are so caught up in what they think are goon tears that they aren't looking at the actual issue involved.
These pos siphons seem cool to me, but a little small and easy to carry for the disruption they will cause. I predict several things will happen:
Some prices may start to go up as these things are spammed everywhere. Even is the siphon raiders themself don't make any isk from it (because pos owners will just fly out and get their product back), the part ofthe product that is lost in transit will eventually affect the bottom line.
Tech2 haulers are going to die in droves in the beginning to bubbled POSes. Ceptors won't but ceptors can't haul off the loot either. those same haulers are going to die in droves as they try to get away with the loot through super bubbled gates surrounding the system the POS is in.
Alliances are going to encourage their members to train up pos gunning alts that can fly haulers that can be left logged off everywhere. Whoever thinks these sipons will lead more "patrols" doesn't understand EVE online game mechanics, were you can just log off an alt at a pos and log him in to see whats going on.
Large Alliances will have the manpower to scratch the minor itch these tings will be come. Smaller Alliances will lose a whole bunch of income for the minor moons they mine as smart raiders learn to go after them instead of the big guys who can fight back. This in turn will strengthen the large alliances. Malcanis' Law will now be known and Malcanis' World.
But lets not stop any of that from keeping you guys from enjoying the goon tears. Too bad those tears will be from them laughing all the way to the bank.
|
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
749
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:37:00 -
[684] - Quote
Igor Nappi wrote:I don't find it realistic for any single entity, not even the CFC, to seed these all over the universe and keep emptying the goo and replacing any destroyed ones for any sort of extended period. This would be a remarkable feat and I guess in this case it could be argued that the feature succeeded in providing a lot of content for a large group of players :)
But that's the beauty of it as a griefing tool; anybody can empty it. People can literally just fly around in a blockade runner, visiting moons and seeing if there's any goo to steal. It's like a bird feeder for blockade runners.
|
Frying Doom
2684
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:37:00 -
[685] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Too bad those tears will be from them laughing all the way to the bank. What else is new. While the crappy moon mining mechanic exists they always will. Any spelling and grammatical errors are because frankly, I don't care!! |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
908
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:38:00 -
[686] - Quote
Igor Nappi wrote:I don't find it realistic for any single entity, not even the CFC, to seed these all over the universe and keep emptying the goo and replacing any destroyed ones for any sort of extended period. This would be a remarkable feat and I guess in this case it could be argued that the feature succeeded in providing a lot of content for a large group of players :)
Well, it might seem that that content consists largely of an alliance leadership griefing its own members, by making them flying round hostile R64/32s every day spamming siphons that get blown up a few minutes later. But someone could probably just write a bot capable of automating the process, particularly if they'd already mapped the location of all valuable moons in the Eve. |
|
CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
396
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:39:00 -
[687] - Quote
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think. |
|
IamBeastx
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
189
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:42:00 -
[688] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think. new skill for number of siphon units deployabe
All my life i wanted to be someone, now i know i should have been more specific. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1353
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:49:00 -
[689] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range. Sure, restrict this to alliances who have the numbers to blanket regions in them, while being nearly immune to small entities who would want to disrupt their income. |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
406
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:49:00 -
[690] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
NO to both ideas. The waste is essential to prevent this being zero sum. The waste factor means a siphon isnt pointless EVEN IF the original owner is able to empty it. 10% is too low.
The 5 to 10 limit means no-one will do this for ISK as the max ISK/hourOfEffort is too low (while the risk is high) - a typical scenario might give you 6 - 9 hours or siphon time before being discovered, of which the first 4 are merely recouping the cost of the siphon, leaving at 5 - 12.5m ISK profit per siphon in a day. If you can only deploy 5 thats a max of 60m profit with 50m worth of hardware at risk. Why would anyone do that instead of missioning in empire for an hour.
Instead, make it so that a ship equipped with a cloak cant deploy or empty a siphon, increase the siphon max storage to 5 days or so, and make it so siphons canot even be manually targetted by POS guns. |
|
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
603
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:50:00 -
[691] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
This strongly favors large groups, while impacting the ability of small groups to bother the larger ones.
Bad call. |
Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
1725
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:51:00 -
[692] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:mynnna wrote:
Except even in that case there is material destroyed. You lose twelve percent of your mined output, PERIOD, no matter what. So if someone drops one of these before I leave for work, I get punished for having a job. If they do it before I go to sleep, I get punished for sleeping. Or hell, if they live in AUTZ and I'm in USTZ I get punished just because they're in a different timezone. The theft isn't irrecoverable, but the destruction is.
Flip that around? What if you live in AUTZ and they live in USTZ. They spend 100m to drop 10 of these in a system, and log out to go to bed. You log in, check your POS's, blap the 10 siphons before they have a chance to do anything. Then isn't it him getting punished for different timezone and sleeping? What if he drops them before going to work but you have that day off, and you blap the siphons before they have a chance to do anything but he isn't going to notice for at least 10 hours or so. Is he getting punished for having a job? There are multiple situations in EVE currently where people can get unlucky with timing based on having RL issues or commitments. So guess what.
I personally would have used the HTFU Video One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
603
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:55:00 -
[693] - Quote
ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.
This is a peculiar thread indeed. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17029
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:57:00 -
[694] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Let me know what you think. I think I still want to know what the design goal behind making the API lie is.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Pirate Nation.
127
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:58:00 -
[695] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
How about waste at 0-5%, on a random basis, more than that and it creates supply issues which certain busy bees will profit from.
I don't like the idea of character limits, it feels too restraining, its like making corp owned POCO's in hisec still protected by CONCORD, half baked basically...
If you do not want LOCAL go to WH space,-áand those people who think that WH space is like 0.0 but without local,-álight a cyno and try jumping to it.-á-á There is a structural issue with Eve, based on accounts with no link, vast reserves of ISK-áand plex, which makes it too easy to metagame the destruction of small alliances. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5329
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:58:00 -
[696] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think. Those don't actually address any of the balance issues that were raised with these and I have no idea why those two are the response to feedback. The biggest issue is cost. |
IamBeastx
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
189
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:02:00 -
[697] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
4 per skill level maybe in future add a specialized skill
Limit numbers allowable on the same grid (ie: 300 of these on a POS with bubbles deployed would become a great catch and de-cloak exploit)
Make waste factor based on skills as well, if people seriously want to use these a quick skill train will help the wastage distaste.
All my life i wanted to be someone, now i know i should have been more specific. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1123
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:04:00 -
[698] - Quote
Quote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
As long as these things can be killed at any time, 20% is fine
Quote: b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
strongly favors large groups, BAD idea, really bad We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
352
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:06:00 -
[699] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote: Time to scrap moon mining then!
Moon mining is not, and has never been, a good kind of gameplay mechanic. At least not whiles it's AFK passive income. Moon mining should be something a player has to get into a ship and undock for. Please explain to me how you take a moon from someone without undocking? POSes are not passive income. POSes are PvP income. The only one CCP currently provides.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1974
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:15:00 -
[700] - Quote
Good change. A region full of moons takes hundreds of people and thousands of man-hours to conquer. One person should not be able to hamper that by dropping a couple siphons per moon over the course of a few hours. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
|
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
607
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:16:00 -
[701] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Good change. A region full of moons takes hundreds of people and thousands of man-hours to conquer. One person should not be able to hamper that by dropping a couple siphons per moon over the course of a few hours.
lol... |
Ereshgikal
Pigs and Sows
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:16:00 -
[702] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.
Yes, why should we be able to use the API. :facepalm:
So, let's say I have the following setup:
silo -> reactor -> silo -> silo
My guess is that the API-tomfoolery you are doing only looks at the silo right after the reactor. So if I use the API to check the last silo..perhaps it would work anyway.
Or those running complex reactors will notice the decreased output in the complex silo.
So, CCP messing with the API is just stupid since there will probably be ways around it. |
XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
217
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:17:00 -
[703] - Quote
Quote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
Terrible idea. The waste factor is a good way to grief an AFK Empire POS owner in deep space. Even if you can't come and empty the Siphon safely, you're still able to potentially destabilize the AFK Empire POS owners income just by wastage alone.
20% is a good mark to have it at. 25% would be even better. |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
346
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:18:00 -
[704] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not? Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear.
Was not clear...
I read that the other way too! So glad these won't be dead on arrival...
A really nifty structure to keep those big moon farming alliances in check! And by that I mean challenging their passive income to match what they can realistically defend. I approve!
|
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:19:00 -
[705] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
a) is neither here nor there, wastage factors only effect those who empty the siphon, nominally the deployer but arguably anyone, including the POS owner, i note few have complained about it in this thread, ergo, no one really cares.
b) a marginal improvement, it won't stop an army of alts deploying them.
Your answer fails to address issues of balance.
The modules should be bigger, over 200m3, they should not fit in an interceptor. In their current form they are near risk free for the griefers who can load several of them up in a nulli interceptor and blast past defensive gate camps with near impunity.
Cost, 10m isk is too low and will merely encourage the Goons to spam them across regions of space, using the above nulli interceptors.
API false reporting, this idea is pants on head and set on fire level ******** especially with all the talk about the new Crest API, why go make a game mechanic to **** it up? Talk about the left hand not talking to the right hand.
Meanwhile, are any Devs working on improvements to POS mechanics and interface? It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:22:00 -
[706] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
A limit per character looks fine for me. However, changing the wastage from 20 to 10 could make the difference between an effective harassing tool, or just a little annoyance. Be it 20% please |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1974
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:22:00 -
[707] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:mynnna wrote:Good change. A region full of moons takes hundreds of people and thousands of man-hours to conquer. One person should not be able to hamper that by dropping a couple siphons per moon over the course of a few hours. lol...
The tears from the small groupers just means CCP is on the right track.
You know, to borrow the logic of those same small groupers from earlier in the thread. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Phoenix Jones
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
174
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:24:00 -
[708] - Quote
People are worried that some dudes alt in a NPC corp will just fly around dropping these.
Makes sense. I'd make some suggesting changes.
1) anchoring 5 (yes I know it doesn't require you to anchor it, but this does remove the whole day 1 bios mass alt from flying around dropping these everywhere) 2) requires non-NPC corp. I thought about it requiring roles but that wouldn't work. It should be corp based equipment, and not be droppable by a char in a NPC corporation. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Derka McDerk
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:24:00 -
[709] - Quote
What the siphon in my eyes does is just make t2 production harder and more expensive with the waste %. The currently run monopoly will get griefed leading to less moongoo which in turn increases prices of all t2 production. The whole monopoly being run by a select few... Newer players will suffer the consequences the hardest.
The whole monopoly and price increase scenario doesnt look good. So tell me again, why is there no moongoo in highsec? Dont give me that bittervet hurpadurp carebear highsec **** please. Everyone wishing ot take part in t2 production should have a way of doing so, not having to fully rely on null alliances for either production or rentals. Spreading out minerals for all sec status zones would mean: less reliance on nullsec production. Prices would settle down instead of skyrocket. R64 could be near to non existent in highsec, still giving null some edge over high. PI already exists in all areas and poco changes are coming to highsec, so why not bring moon mining to highsec as well? |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
607
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:24:00 -
[710] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:mynnna wrote:Good change. A region full of moons takes hundreds of people and thousands of man-hours to conquer. One person should not be able to hamper that by dropping a couple siphons per moon over the course of a few hours. lol... The tears from the small groupers just means CCP is on the right track. You know, to borrow the logic of those same small groupers from earlier in the thread.
In fairness I personally can't lose either way. |
|
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
407
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:25:00 -
[711] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.
This is a peculiar thread indeed.
Sorry but goons are the single largest holder of high end moons. This is 100% about them protecting their income.
|
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
608
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:26:00 -
[712] - Quote
Lallante wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.
This is a peculiar thread indeed. Sorry but goons are the single largest holder of high end moons. This is 100% about them protecting their income.
If you don't realize they have the people, budget, time and Will to siphon every moon they don't personally own, just for lulz, you are sorely underestimating them. |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
407
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:29:00 -
[713] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:Lallante wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.
This is a peculiar thread indeed. Sorry but goons are the single largest holder of high end moons. This is 100% about them protecting their income. If you don't realize they have the people, budget, time and Will to siphon every moon they don't personally own, just for lulz, you are sorely underestimating them.
So what? If they do that they deserve the rewards.
The original Eve goons (that cared about lulz and tears) would have embraced this idea with open arms. The current, greedy bloated carebear fallacy that calls itself goonswarm being opposed to it just shows how completely ideologically bankrupt they've become. |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:29:00 -
[714] - Quote
Lallante wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.
This is a peculiar thread indeed. Sorry but goons are the single largest holder of high end moons. This is 100% about them protecting their income.
One should be careful when pointing out others ignorance.
Goons aren't the largest moon holders. Pandemic Legion would be the largest between their renter space and low sec moons.
The CFC might be the largest holder of R64s, but I am not convinced that is the case with N3 (including renters) holding more space than the CFC. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:29:00 -
[715] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:Lallante wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.
This is a peculiar thread indeed. Sorry but goons are the single largest holder of high end moons. This is 100% about them protecting their income. If you don't realize they have the people, budget, time and Will to siphon every moon they don't personally own, just for lulz, you are sorely underestimating them.
Not a problem for small griefers without pos, that's the intention of this expansion, giving small groups of players tools to harm the powerful. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1326
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:31:00 -
[716] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
I think you don't understand the nature of the imbalance. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
346
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:32:00 -
[717] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Good change. A region full of moons takes hundreds of people and thousands of man-hours to conquer. One person should not be able to hamper that by dropping a couple siphons per moon over the course of a few hours.
Yes because once conquered the victors should be able to put their feet up, smoke cigars, drink brandy and laugh at the puny lower class people and worker slaves forced to actually work for an income in Eve.
Power to the proletariat! |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Pirate Nation.
127
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:32:00 -
[718] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:Lallante wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.
This is a peculiar thread indeed. Sorry but goons are the single largest holder of high end moons. This is 100% about them protecting their income. If you don't realize they have the people, budget, time and Will to siphon every moon they don't personally own, just for lulz, you are sorely underestimating them.
Yeah but they are also intending to control every POCO in hisec and smash N3 and co into little bits, something has to give, they are not that awesome, are they? If you do not want LOCAL go to WH space,-áand those people who think that WH space is like 0.0 but without local,-álight a cyno and try jumping to it.-á-á There is a structural issue with Eve, based on accounts with no link, vast reserves of ISK-áand plex, which makes it too easy to metagame the destruction of small alliances. |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
78
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:34:00 -
[719] - Quote
Lallante wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:Lallante wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.
This is a peculiar thread indeed. Sorry but goons are the single largest holder of high end moons. This is 100% about them protecting their income. If you don't realize they have the people, budget, time and Will to siphon every moon they don't personally own, just for lulz, you are sorely underestimating them. So what? If they do that they deserve the rewards. The original Eve goons (that cared about lulz and tears) would have embraced this idea with open arms. The current, greedy bloated carebear fallacy that calls itself goonswarm being opposed to it just shows how completely ideologically bankrupt they've become.
'original eve goons'
and
goons are 'bankrupt'
BINGO! |
Lord Drakandu
Piratas Leprosos Guineanos Pirate Coalition
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:34:00 -
[720] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
a) bad idea. Too many benefits for the cost of the device
b) Because, limits do not exist of pos that can install a player because if of siphon |
|
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:34:00 -
[721] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:mynnna wrote:Good change. A region full of moons takes hundreds of people and thousands of man-hours to conquer. One person should not be able to hamper that by dropping a couple siphons per moon over the course of a few hours. Yes because once conquered the victors should be able to put their feet up, smoke cigars, drink brandy and laugh at the puny lower class people and worker slaves forced to actually work for an income in Eve. Power to the proletariat!
I think they don't understand that amount of people doesn't need to be in the same corp. They will have syphons from enemy alliances, pirates, highsec dwellers, everybody will be syphoning.
In fact, if there weren't a limit per player (i think 10 is fair enough), there would be too many syphons. If 10 gives you many millions of ISK, is fair enough. |
scimichar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:34:00 -
[722] - Quote
Good thing CCP rebalanced T1 frigs/cruisers, because T2 stuff is going to get expensive soon. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5330
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:38:00 -
[723] - Quote
Lallante wrote: So what? If they do that they deserve the rewards.
The original Eve goons (that cared about lulz and tears) would have embraced this idea with open arms. The current, greedy bloated carebear fallacy that calls itself goonswarm being opposed to it just shows how completely ideologically bankrupt they've become.
oh no my internet spaceship guild is ideologically bankrupt
IDEOLOGICALLY BANKRUPT
we might lose the mandate of heaven :ohdear: |
Lord Drakandu
Piratas Leprosos Guineanos Pirate Coalition
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:40:00 -
[724] - Quote
scimichar wrote:Good thing CCP rebalanced T1 frigs/cruisers, because T2 stuff is going to get expensive soon.
Your attempt of boicot on the module is ridiculous. The CFC has to adapt to the change. |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
620
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:40:00 -
[725] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Varius Xeral wrote:I Love Boobies wrote:Just had another brilliant idea you can do with these siphons... you can use an alt, and rob your corp/alliance with them while remaining in the corp/alliance. I am thinking you could achieve this by deploying them with covert ops, then returning with a blockade runner, and do drive by ( warp in cloaked to a bookmark, align to a point that will take you within distance of picking the product up from the siphon, uncloak quickly, pick the stuff up, warp off) pick ups while aligned to a warp out point. Will have to mess around with it on the Test server to see if this can be done. Should have just made them anonymous. Intragroup theft is the only redeeming feature so far. You forgot the ability to troll people who don't check on their towers.
I already mentioned that earlier, lol. *removed inappropriate signature* - CCP Eterne |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1326
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:43:00 -
[726] - Quote
Lallante wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:Lallante wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.
This is a peculiar thread indeed. Sorry but goons are the single largest holder of high end moons. This is 100% about them protecting their income. If you don't realize they have the people, budget, time and Will to siphon every moon they don't personally own, just for lulz, you are sorely underestimating them. So what? If they do that they deserve the rewards. The original Eve goons (that cared about lulz and tears) would have embraced this idea with open arms. The current, greedy bloated carebear fallacy that calls itself goonswarm being opposed to it just shows how completely ideologically bankrupt they've become.
I am going to cherish this post and use it for internal trolling. I thank you sir. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4770
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:43:00 -
[727] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:Quote:It will prioritize raw material over processed material if both are available so, time to switch to caldari pos and put a moon harvester on those ****** materials like hydrocarbons and stuff so the siphons don't touch my reactions... nice, thanks CCP You probably better go read the post again. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
749
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:44:00 -
[728] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:mynnna wrote:Good change. A region full of moons takes hundreds of people and thousands of man-hours to conquer. One person should not be able to hamper that by dropping a couple siphons per moon over the course of a few hours. Yes because once conquered the victors should be able to put their feet up, smoke cigars, drink brandy and laugh at the puny lower class people and worker slaves forced to actually work for an income in Eve.
Eve is basically a fascism simulator so I unironically agree with this response. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1394
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:46:00 -
[729] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
sure thing that and trial characters cannot deploy the shiphon unit. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1394
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:48:00 -
[730] - Quote
XavierVE wrote:Quote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10% Terrible idea. The waste factor is a good way to grief an AFK Empire POS owner in deep space. Even if you can't come and empty the Siphon safely, you're still able to potentially destabilize the AFK Empire POS owners income just by wastage alone. 20% is a good mark to have it at. 25% would be even better.
read the thread... goons explained and so did i what waste is a bad bad idea...
though perhaps there could be tiers per sec status? or per type of moon...
so r8 waste like 30% r64 5%?
lower for 0.0 higher for high sec as high sec moons from what i understand are worth crap. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1394
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:49:00 -
[731] - Quote
ah crap i quoted instead of editing...
derp There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
80
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:50:00 -
[732] - Quote
I am enjoying that the feedback adjustment for this feature actually removes utility from the theoretical small raider type and places the utility back into the large, entrenched power type without actually addressing the core problems with the device; namely, that two siphons completely shut down a moon harvester.
So, thanks CCP, for making it nicer for us and worse for everyone else. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
45
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:55:00 -
[733] - Quote
These are obscenely overpowered.
No notifications? So now I have to literally ******* check every hour? Are you guys insane or just stupid?
The amount siphoned is ridiculous. And it doesn't scale if there's multiple?
You leave zero incentive to actually run a tower. The tedious task of having to manually check EVERY HOUR per tower is simply a horrid idea. Slap two of the things on? The tower owner is getting fuckall.
I'm all for the idea of cheap siphon units, but at the point where they completely negate the ability to run a tower without having to be a lifeless, sleepless tower checking zombie EVERY SINGLE HOUR? FFS, you can't seriously expect that. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1394
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:56:00 -
[734] - Quote
Querns wrote:I am enjoying that the feedback adjustment for this feature actually removes utility from the theoretical small raider type and places the utility back into the large, entrenched power type without actually addressing the core problems with the device; namely, that two siphons completely shut down a moon harvester.
So, thanks CCP, for making it nicer for us and worse for everyone else.
a small corp with 30 people in it can shiphon up to 150 poses. now lets say all of the alt chars can also drop shiphon units so now that 150 is up to 450.
that is alot...
i see no problem with large groups who are more organised to take advantage of this mechanic. that is how eve works...
the main problem i could see is if trial accounts can drop these babies... that would just be terrible. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Quintessen
Messengers of Judah Socius Inter Nos
211
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:56:00 -
[735] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Quintessen wrote:First, if you really want to see this used, don't put the owner's name on it. All it's going to do it promote usage through some un-associated alt in an NPC corp. Let's bypass that and just have it be anonymous. Guerrilla warfare only works when your opponent can't just use a locator agent to find you and hunt you down.
Second, I'm not sure why people are complaining about harassment now given the fact that the harasser's identity will be known. Just wardec them or hunt them down and kill them. That's your conflict driver. Goons getting tired of being griefed? Go kill the people taking your stuff.
That said, I think they're wrong about the T2 market. This is an effective way to break the cartel. People will be stealing valuable moon goo and then selling it on the market. Supply may go down, but the number of suppliers will go up as goons have their POSes bled of their goo. We'l see who ends up being right.
All our claims and trolling to the contrary, there hasn't been a moongoo cartel since they implemented Technetium alchemy, and even then it was more like "we hold all the moons and are benefiting from the price increases that the game mechanics have created" than overt manipulation and control.
I guess my question is why are other goons talking about controlling T2 prices as if the cartel was still in place? Also my understanding was that alchemy put price limits on things, but did not actually force the price down below the cost of the alchemical components. So theoretically Goons, who are now stretched pretty thin even for their large numbers, will have difficulty defending all their territory as would any large entity. Effectively that's what Guerrilla warfare is about -- taking on your enemy when they can't dictate the rules of engagement. For anyone who doesn't have a POS -- and that's quite a few -- they have an asymmetric advantage. NPC corpdom allows them to harass without real fear of repercussions unless Goons just really want to start getting CONCORDed left and right and that may be their only option to send a message. Also if this is wide-spread enough Goons won't know who to attack first.
At first I didn't really care about this particular feature. But the more I see it, the more I recognize that EVE really needs Guerrilla tactics. It needs the ability for large entities to be harassed by smaller entities to solve the problem of the fact that Goons are too big and too good at large scale conflict to be challenged that way. Honestly I think it's the only way EVE can survive. The game can't survive with the current mechanics. There needs to be new ways to disrupt big entities to the point where being that big just isn't viable anymore. EVE needs city-states, not nations. And I hope CCP gives that to us. |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:57:00 -
[736] - Quote
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. Or... you could actually occupy the space you decide to deploy assets in with other players from your corp, alliance, coalition? Okay, you be the one to camp all of your POSes with Instacanes. You'll need enough to fast-lock a cloaky hauler--who will need to dumb enough to decloak--or to alpha an inty who might land well outside of optimal. The problem with this mechanic isn't that "living in your space can prevent it"; the problem is that the opportunity cost for the aggressor is so low compared to the massive PIA it will create for POS owners. Ironically, GSF has by far the best operational capability to blanket entire Regions with these things.
So what? I'm already in the expectation of the bi-weekly "Janitor CTA" broadcast on jabber. During that time, small alliances that occupy their territory will have no trouble cleaning their space as soon as they spot a siphon unit.
|
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:57:00 -
[737] - Quote
Querns wrote:I am enjoying that the feedback adjustment for this feature actually removes utility from the theoretical small raider type and places the utility back into the large, entrenched power type without actually addressing the core problems with the device; namely, that two siphons completely shut down a moon harvester.
So, thanks CCP, for making it nicer for us and worse for everyone else.
So shooting down a moon harvester and giving the loot to the small raider is something which benefits the big alliances.... I like the way big alliances support us.
Think the opposite, more than 10 syphons per player. All the POS colapsed with syphons, the loot sharing between the different syphons (although I have heard something about priorities if you are the first placing your syphon, but what about the others then if 2 shut down a pos?) Eventually, poses would be useless, but nobody will reap the rewards because they will be too splitted. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1394
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:57:00 -
[738] - Quote
Kat Ayclism wrote:These are obscenely overpowered.
No notifications? So now I have to literally ******* check every hour? Are you guys insane or just stupid?
The amount siphoned is ridiculous. And it doesn't scale if there's multiple?
You leave zero incentive to actually run a tower. The tedious task of having to manually check EVERY HOUR per tower is simply a horrid idea. Slap two of the things on? The tower owner is getting fuckall.
I'm all for the idea of cheap siphon units, but at the point where they completely negate the ability to run a tower without having to be a lifeless, sleepless tower checking zombie EVERY SINGLE HOUR? FFS, you can't seriously expect that- this is a game, not a job.
maybe you should stop owning 50% of the r64 towers which are scattered all around eve...
the idea is if you live in a system you will notice if a red or nuet comes into system and you can stop them from shiphon your stuff...
adapt or die. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
908
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:58:00 -
[739] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
Both are bad ideas. The first make it even less worthwhile to siphon a low-value moon. You're not siphoning anything of real value and it takes a long time to recoup your 10 mill, but at least you're disrupting the owner's AFK mining operations. Halving the loss to 10% greatly diminishes the motivation for siphoning these typically less-watched moons.
The second simply favours larger entities and alt creation. |
scimichar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:00:00 -
[740] - Quote
Lord Drakandu wrote:scimichar wrote:Good thing CCP rebalanced T1 frigs/cruisers, because T2 stuff is going to get expensive soon. Your attempt of boicot on the module is ridiculous. The CFC has to adapt to the change.
You do realize the CFC has several people making T2 items right? When the supply drops the prices are going to skyrocket. Heck, even just a jabber ping sending newbies out to deploy these things will cause enough price speculation to make billions. |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
80
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:01:00 -
[741] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Querns wrote:I am enjoying that the feedback adjustment for this feature actually removes utility from the theoretical small raider type and places the utility back into the large, entrenched power type without actually addressing the core problems with the device; namely, that two siphons completely shut down a moon harvester.
So, thanks CCP, for making it nicer for us and worse for everyone else. a small corp with 30 people in it can shiphon up to 150 poses. now lets say all of the alt chars can also drop shiphon units so now that 150 is up to 450. that is alot... i see no problem with large groups who are more organised to take advantage of this mechanic. that is how eve works... the main problem i could see is if trial accounts can drop these babies... that would just be terrible. No, you're absolutely right -- and, in fact, an alliance of 10987 people can siphon 54,935 moons. Plus, while your theoretical examples definitely don't have the organization to pull this sort of thing off, we do. So, y'know, it's nicer for us now that it's being artificially limited by character.
Also, is your consistent misspelling of "siphon" as "shiphon" some sort of portmanteau of shit and siphon, some sort of retarded affectation, or just consistent inability to spell a thing This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1394
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:02:00 -
[742] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think. Both are bad ideas. The first make it even less worthwhile to siphon a low-value moon. You're not siphoning anything of real value and it takes a long time to recoup your 10 mill, but at least you're disrupting the owner's AFK mining operations. Halving the loss to 10% greatly diminishes the motivation for siphoning these typically less-watched moons. The second simply favours larger entities and alt creation.
so make it tired like i suggested... low end moons have a larger waste amount high end lower.
make it so trial accounts cannot drop shiphon units
and add a skill that allows an extra deployable item per level. 1 per level.
remember ccp said a small group should be able to distrupt another group... that does not mean shut them down completely... if you want to do that get organized. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1394
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:05:00 -
[743] - Quote
Querns wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Querns wrote:I am enjoying that the feedback adjustment for this feature actually removes utility from the theoretical small raider type and places the utility back into the large, entrenched power type without actually addressing the core problems with the device; namely, that two siphons completely shut down a moon harvester.
So, thanks CCP, for making it nicer for us and worse for everyone else. a small corp with 30 people in it can shiphon up to 150 poses. now lets say all of the alt chars can also drop shiphon units so now that 150 is up to 450. that is alot... i see no problem with large groups who are more organised to take advantage of this mechanic. that is how eve works... the main problem i could see is if trial accounts can drop these babies... that would just be terrible. No, you're absolutely right -- and, in fact, an alliance of 10987 people can siphon 54,935 moons. Plus, while your theoretical examples definitely don't have the organization to pull this sort of thing off, we do. So, y'know, it's nicer for us now that it's being artificially limited by character. Also, is your consistent misspelling of "siphon" as "shiphon" some sort of portmanteau of sh it and siphon, some sort of retar ded affectation, or just consistent inability to spell a thing
so you are telling me every person in goons is active all the time... honestly if you guys can get that many people to go around and do that... that would be great! i mean like news worthy great!
also about my spelling... meh. i suggest you get over it... though to answer the question it is option c. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
387
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:06:00 -
[744] - Quote
Why is this a deployable not a highslot module that sends a notification? |
Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
49
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:09:00 -
[745] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Kat Ayclism wrote:These are obscenely overpowered.
No notifications? So now I have to literally ******* check every hour? Are you guys insane or just stupid?
The amount siphoned is ridiculous. And it doesn't scale if there's multiple?
You leave zero incentive to actually run a tower. The tedious task of having to manually check EVERY HOUR per tower is simply a horrid idea. Slap two of the things on? The tower owner is getting fuckall.
I'm all for the idea of cheap siphon units, but at the point where they completely negate the ability to run a tower without having to be a lifeless, sleepless tower checking zombie EVERY SINGLE HOUR? FFS, you can't seriously expect that- this is a game, not a job. maybe you should stop owning 50% of the r64 towers which are scattered all around eve... the idea is if you live in a system you will notice if a red or nuet comes into system and you can stop them from shiphon your stuff... adapt or die. And be awake and on this game every motherfucking hour of the day?
Go on a roam? WOOPS CAN'T CAUSE YOUR ******* TOWER WILL GET SIPHONED IF YOU AREN'T SITTING ON IT WATCHING IT CONSTANTLY.
Hell, go to a market hub? WOOPS CAN'T GOTTA CHECK THE TOWER EVERY HOUR OF YOUR LIFE FOREVER.
Even living in this one system you have to have an undue burden on the player to check every single hour. Hell even with plenty of alts or corp members to check your towers, it's still obscene purely from that. Zero freedom to actually have a life outside of the game, and then zero freedom to have a life in the game cause you can't go anyfuckingwhere for more than an hour? |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
346
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:14:00 -
[746] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:mynnna wrote:Good change. A region full of moons takes hundreds of people and thousands of man-hours to conquer. One person should not be able to hamper that by dropping a couple siphons per moon over the course of a few hours. Yes because once conquered the victors should be able to put their feet up, smoke cigars, drink brandy and laugh at the puny lower class people and worker slaves forced to actually work for an income in Eve. Power to the proletariat! I think they don't understand that amount of people doesn't need to be in the same corp. They will have syphons from enemy alliances, pirates, highsec dwellers, everybody will be syphoning. In fact, if there weren't a limit per player (i think 10 is fair enough), there would be too many syphons. If 10 gives you many millions of ISK, is fair enough.
There is no limit on the number of POS a character can put up - Why shouldn't a motivated and *active* player be able to place as many of these as he likes?
Yes R32 and R64 moon material prices will likely spike - but won't that just mean more people will ACTIVELY protect their POS incomes?
I'll leave the maths to someone else, but people predicting doom scenarios of every moon being syphoned by griefers are ridiculous - it is a cost vs reward scenario as with most of Eve.
Once people realise the reward for dropping 10-20 syphons randomly is the loss equivalence of a battleship for maybe a few mil of stolen materials they can scoop and perhaps a few hours of sabotaged production for *active* POS owners, the majority will realise it is not cost effective.
It is more likely to be used as a targeted attack on perceived passive players or by locals attacking POS the local folks have some beef with. This targeted sabotage is a nice mechanic for emergent gameplay - I mean has anyone considered that a lot of alliance syphoning will probably be done by alts of their own members?
It will make some fun reading all those disgruntled POS inspectors going rogue while their alt syphons their alliance income. lol
|
Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:17:00 -
[747] - Quote
Also, the idea that this only sticks a big fat one in the anus of r64 owners is hilarious. Lower end owners are going to have even less motivation to own their moon since they make so little to begin with (often barely covering fuel costs if not taking a loss). Nonscaling, obscene-amount-taking siphons will completely wreck them, even with a reaction farm of them in that system. |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:19:00 -
[748] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
Waste factor of 20% is fine.
But yeah, you should limit the number of siphons that can be anchored on a POS. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1975
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:22:00 -
[749] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:mynnna wrote:Good change. A region full of moons takes hundreds of people and thousands of man-hours to conquer. One person should not be able to hamper that by dropping a couple siphons per moon over the course of a few hours. Yes because once conquered the victors should be able to put their feet up, smoke cigars, drink brandy and laugh at the puny lower class people and worker slaves forced to actually work for an income in Eve. Power to the proletariat! Finally, someone gets it. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:22:00 -
[750] - Quote
Tippia wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Let me know what you think. I think I still want to know what the design goal behind making the API lie is.
It's about making it harder to detect it while you aren't logged in the game. Want to secure your POS? Go, and actually play EVE Online. |
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1394
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:23:00 -
[751] - Quote
Kat Ayclism wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Kat Ayclism wrote:These are obscenely overpowered.
No notifications? So now I have to literally ******* check every hour? Are you guys insane or just stupid?
The amount siphoned is ridiculous. And it doesn't scale if there's multiple?
You leave zero incentive to actually run a tower. The tedious task of having to manually check EVERY HOUR per tower is simply a horrid idea. Slap two of the things on? The tower owner is getting fuckall.
I'm all for the idea of cheap siphon units, but at the point where they completely negate the ability to run a tower without having to be a lifeless, sleepless tower checking zombie EVERY SINGLE HOUR? FFS, you can't seriously expect that- this is a game, not a job. maybe you should stop owning 50% of the r64 towers which are scattered all around eve... the idea is if you live in a system you will notice if a red or nuet comes into system and you can stop them from shiphon your stuff... adapt or die. And be awake and on this game every motherfucking hour of the day? Go on a roam? WOOPS CAN'T CAUSE YOUR ******* TOWER WILL GET SIPHONED IF YOU AREN'T SITTING ON IT WATCHING IT CONSTANTLY. Hell, go to a market hub? WOOPS CAN'T GOTTA CHECK THE TOWER EVERY HOUR OF YOUR LIFE FOREVER. Even living in this one system you have to have an undue burden on the player to check every single hour. Hell even with plenty of alts or corp members to check your towers, it's still obscene purely from that. Zero freedom to actually have a life outside of the game, and then zero freedom to have a life in the game cause you can't go anyfuckingwhere for more than an hour?
start taking shifts i guess...
honestly as it stands pos income is mostly passive afk like...
what you are upset sounds like when domi pilots found out that they had to cycle thier drones because they would ge aggroed...
you mean i can sit there and make isk while watching top chef?!?!?!? that is terrible.
though i can see the pain in that the pos is always active and the shiphon unit cycles once per hour.... perhaps if it cycled 2-4 times a day but took the same amount that could be a solution for your prjected madness.
that way you only have to check the pos once every 3-6 hours... and if the spiphon unit is destroyed before its cycle is complete then zero moon goo is lost.
the unit would have a capsitor that starts to collect the goo but if it destroyed before cycle is complete then the goo is sent to the closest silo.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:24:00 -
[752] - Quote
IamBeastx wrote:
Limit numbers allowable on the same grid (ie: 300 of these on a POS with bubbles deployed would become a great catch and de-cloak exploit)
An exploit that cost 3 billions ISK. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
751
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:25:00 -
[753] - Quote
Vyktor wrote: I'll leave the maths to someone else,
All the people who didn't do that say you're wrong.
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1394
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:25:00 -
[754] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:Tippia wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Let me know what you think. I think I still want to know what the design goal behind making the API lie is. It's about making it harder to detect it while you aren't logged in the game. Want to secure your POS? Go, and actually play EVE Online.
indeed from a RP perspective the unit takes goo from the pos without the pos knowing it... so how would said pos relay that data that then gets sent out to the api system?
if the pos does not know its being robbed how is it supposed to let you know... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:28:00 -
[755] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:Tippia wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Let me know what you think. I think I still want to know what the design goal behind making the API lie is. It's about making it harder to detect it while you aren't logged in the game. Want to secure your POS? Go, and actually play EVE Online.
Well I do play eve, when I am not working, sleeping, being with my family or wanking. Albeit CCP seems to think I should be online monitoring my towers 23.5/7 now. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
346
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:30:00 -
[756] - Quote
Kat Ayclism wrote:Also, the idea that this only sticks a big fat one in the anus of r64 owners is hilarious. Lower end owners are going to have even less motivation to own their moon since they make so little to begin with (often barely covering fuel costs if not taking a loss). Nonscaling, obscene-amount-taking siphons will completely wreck them, even with a reaction farm of them in that system.
Supply and demand.
Once the supply of low ends gets syphoned and drops by perhaps 20%, the price of those low ends will rise, just guessing by perhaps 20% - this means they will now more than cover the fuel costs and motivation for actively mining and protecting their POS will increase.
It is almost as is things in this game balance themselves. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1357
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:32:00 -
[757] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:It's about making it harder to detect it while you aren't logged in the game. Want to secure your POS? Go, and actually play EVE Online. Confirming "playing EVE" should consist of orbiting your POS 23/7. |
Sardaros
Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair
97
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:32:00 -
[758] - Quote
I hope CCP will create a mobile structure which will reduce ISK income in all solar system by 50%. 5-7mill EXP, 25mill ISK and low signature. Alliance to capture only the territory they could defend. sweet dreams about the collapse of the great western sphere of prosperity. |
Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution
115
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:32:00 -
[759] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
It's fine as it is. Moon goo needs to die
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Absolutely not! No! Don't Panic.
|
Khador Vess
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
83
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:32:00 -
[760] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
a) I'd say that's a fair trade, however let me make a slight tweak as a suggestion to that what about making it though the more siphons that are anchored the more waste, and that waste affects all siphons equally. 1st siphon, 10% waste, 2nd 20%, 3rd 40% etc. so if you want to grief the griefer find some siphon he's anchored, add one of your own and reduce his income by increasing the waste.
b) I suspect it would have to be closer to the 10-20 range to make it worth it. I dont mind the idea of making it skill based and giving players and basic and advanced skill to make it a total of 20 or split the difference, give them a base of 5 and add a skill and an advanced skill to take it to 15? I used to have a forum sig, but CCP SocksFour stole it.... |
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1395
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:32:00 -
[761] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote: Well I do play eve, when I am not working, sleeping, being with my family or wanking. Albeit CCP seems to think I should be online monitoring my towers 23.5/7 now.
not at all ccp thinks that you should only setup what you can afford to loose... just like a pimp mission ship.
when i used to be active in 0.0 space (non npc) we would have people from australia to america who were pretty much online all day.
they would be busy ratting/plexing/mining/scaning and would notice if a nuet/red came into system
all they would have to do now is after said red leaves the system to do a spot check on the moon poses in system... you can use d-scan for this purpose
perhaps you should get renters to occupy your moon system to monitor them for you...
make it rent free as an instentive. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
346
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:34:00 -
[762] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Vyktor wrote: I'll leave the maths to someone else,
All the people who didn't do that say you're wrong.
No, their maths is voodoo based on reading tea leaves in the bottom of a cup. |
|
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
9854
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:35:00 -
[763] - Quote
Sit back and Sip!
|
|
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
240
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:36:00 -
[764] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
do not like.
a) as others have mentioned, 20% is a good figure given that the owner of the pos will feel a hit even if they are able to recover their stolen items before anyone else.
b) there should be no limit per character in order to keep this from being a tool that only the largest alliances will benefit from. |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:36:00 -
[765] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:Tippia wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Let me know what you think. I think I still want to know what the design goal behind making the API lie is. It's about making it harder to detect it while you aren't logged in the game. Want to secure your POS? Go, and actually play EVE Online. Well I do play eve, when I am not working, sleeping, being with my family or wanking. Albeit CCP seems to think I should be online monitoring my towers 23.5/7 now.
You don't have to monitor it h24, but EVE being a MMO, you should had realized by now the advantage to play with friends, friends that can check their d-scan a couple of time per day.
And seriously, EVE being a persistent world, do you really think that all your stuffz should be secure just because you are having a good time with your familly? It's part of the game and CCP just introduced a feature that had openly the goal to fight against AFK income and provoke like they said "asynchronous" interaction between players. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
60
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:37:00 -
[766] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
No limit on the number of siphons that can be deployed. You already have two soft limits: material recovery, unit size. The person placing siphons will gain no benefits unless they gather the materials. This means spending time returning to your siphon spots and seeing if anything was gathered. Travel time in a ship with a large enough cargo is a real limiting factor. Unit size is also a real consideration since that will help determine how often you must return to replenish units for deployment. Of course, with organization and coordination these limits can be modified, but that just encourages playing with groups. Given these real limits there is no reason to make an arbitrary hard limits.
Why not have an initialization, adjustment, or hacking time? The siphon only starts to gather materials after 1-4 hours. This provides a longer safe time between checks on a pos, while still having the same punishment level for not checking your pos. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17033
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:37:00 -
[767] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:Tippia wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Let me know what you think. I think I still want to know what the design goal behind making the API lie is. It's about making it harder to detect it while you aren't logged in the game. Want to secure your POS? Go, and actually play EVE Online. Oh, I suspect as much as well, but I'd like to hear their reasoning. Because if that's the goal, there are far better ways of doing it than making the data export system not export data properly. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:40:00 -
[768] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:Tippia wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Let me know what you think. I think I still want to know what the design goal behind making the API lie is. It's about making it harder to detect it while you aren't logged in the game. Want to secure your POS? Go, and actually play EVE Online. indeed from a RP perspective the unit takes goo from the pos without the pos knowing it... so how would said pos relay that data that then gets sent out to the api system? if the pos does not know its being robbed how is it supposed to let you know...
It doesn't. But an interresting idea was that the POS let you know the loss of production when the goo is emptied from the syphon. The syphon could be considered like a POS module by the API but if someone empty it, then the API notify you of the loss of material. It's up to you to infer after that if it's because of a syphon.
|
Abla Tive
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:41:00 -
[769] - Quote
Limiting the number of siphons one character can drop is a bad idea unless only the dropper can empty the siphon.
At the very least, a character needs to be able to remotely destroy their remote siphons from the industry window to "free up siphon slots". Otherwise, after a few weeks of gameplay a character might not even know how many they have deployed and more importantly where the surviving ones still are.
Instead I suggest that the siphon display the name of the character who either deployed it, or last pulled stuff out of the siphon.
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1395
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:47:00 -
[770] - Quote
Abla Tive wrote:Limiting the number of siphons one character can drop is a bad idea unless only the dropper can empty the siphon.
At the very least, a character needs to be able to remotely destroy their remote siphons from the industry window to "free up siphon slots". Otherwise, after a few weeks of gameplay a character might not even know how many they have deployed and more importantly where the surviving ones still are.
Instead I suggest that the siphon display the name of the character who either deployed it, or last pulled stuff out of the siphon.
how about instead of max per character there is a max per pos?
small pos is max 2 medium 4 large 6? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
|
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group Gatekeepers Universe
65
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:48:00 -
[771] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range. 1. Will you set a limit for POS numbers as well? If not, it would be unfair competition. 2. Have a legion of alts or be worthless. Bad game design, I think. |
Krom Thomson
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:50:00 -
[772] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Did I hear Goons crying in my neighbourhood? Trollface.jpg It's easy to say "adapt or die", until you have to adapt yourself. WTB Hypocrisy
i'v spent the last two years waiting to get the elusive goons tears!
|
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
240
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:51:00 -
[773] - Quote
questions:
1) will the siphon require any skills to deploy?
2) can trial accounts deploy siphons?
Dev Blog wrote: The Small Mobile Siphon Unit in Rubicon can steal raw material (from Moon Harvester Arrays) and processed material (from Simple Reactor Arrays). It will prioritize raw material over processed material if both are available.
3) assume i have a tower harvesting a raw material and also running a simple reaction chain. as mentioned earlier, two siphons should be enough to completely steal all the raw material production. if someone places three siphons at my tower, will the third siphon try to extract from the raw materials (netting 0 materials stolen) or will it focus on the simple product, since there would be nothing left from the raw harvester? |
Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
50
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:54:00 -
[774] - Quote
When these were announced I was beyond excited for them as someone that will: -Use the **** out of them - Have to pay a bit more attention for my *own* towers
But, the only way for these to be remotely close to balanced is: 1) Have no way in hell to completely shut down the tower's output. That means knocking that take amount from the single unit down AND adding a percentage based stacking penalty to additional siphoning units. The max you should be able to knock someone's production down is far better at 60-75%, and that's WITH multiple (stacking penalized) siphons.
These are supposed to be about disruption not completely disabling. POSes are already a huge pain and completely getting nothing out of them is pretty much the point any sane person that values being able to sleep will simply say "**** it I'm not doing this ****", but damn right there should be a way to take a dump in someone's passive income if you can't be rolling around with cap fleets on their porch.
60-75% is still a pretty freaking huge amount of disruption. The waste was an alright attempt at balance, just the total amount they take is just obscene. Keep waste so that even if someone gets to it before the person setting the siphon up does they're still out a good chunk.
2) For the love of sleep men, add a ******* notification. Hell it doesn't have to be right when the things go up. It doesn't even have to be after it's pulled one cycle. Something like 3-5 cycles active would be great. Nobody wants to be literally chained to one system or pos without the ability to sleep- Even if they live in that very system! A lot of groups, specifically smaller ones are also HIGHLY timezone limited so they don't have the endless coverage that'd currently be necessary to check every hour.
The little disruptive group could then be ballers and snatch out the output right before a notification would be sent out AND prep an ambush for the pos slave sent to look out for the tower. The pos owner(s) aren't stuck as zombies that have to forego employment and sleep, and the siphoners get to for sure grab some of that hot hot gooeyness if *they themselves are attentive*
To be clear, I ******* love the idea of siphons but the implementation has to be sane. Leave it like this and all you do is give even more reason for pos managers to hate life. (And I'll still use them, cause who the **** wouldn't use this ridiculously imbalanced **** to grief the people unfortunate enough to require sleep or employment?) |
Teshania
Skittish Endeavors
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:57:00 -
[775] - Quote
I love it, Now moon mining is no longer a *Passive Income* .. More things like this need to be accomplished to shake things up. I can see all the major alliances now going DAMN IT all my INCOME!! .. But at the same time, think you can steal from your niebhor pocket book to make up for it, doing the same thing..
Love it no more AFK pos mining maaauuuhhh..
I do say the Destruction of some of the goo i'm not liking the only reason is this is going to cause the moon goo prices to raise again after you put a bandage on it. We need a Bounty Button on the Forums |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1360
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:00:00 -
[776] - Quote
Kat Ayclism wrote:To be clear, I ******* love the idea of siphons but the implementation has to be sane. Leave it like this and all you do is give even more reason for pos managers to hate life. This. I like the concept of being able to disrupt an alliance's income stream (even when it's my income stream to be disrupted). But this should be done by a gang/fleet of people, and the counter should be forming your own gang and shooting it out. Not a conflict between a cloaky hauler alt and a POS manager alt. Not a race of who can log in more often through the working day. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1360
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:01:00 -
[777] - Quote
Teshania wrote:I love it, Now moon mining is no longer a *Passive Income* Moon mining is not passive income. Moon mining is PvP income. I will keep repeating this until people who have never fought over a POS get the idea. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1329
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:06:00 -
[778] - Quote
I will summerize for skimmers.
CCP: These could be used for griefing so we should make some changes.
*Makes them only able to be used for griefing if you are huge and organized.....
GG CCP Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:07:00 -
[779] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Miner Hottie wrote: Well I do play eve, when I am not working, sleeping, being with my family or wanking. Albeit CCP seems to think I should be online monitoring my towers 23.5/7 now.
not at all ccp thinks that you should only setup what you can afford to loose... just like a pimp mission ship. when i used to be active in 0.0 space (non npc) we would have people from australia to america who were pretty much online all day. they would be busy ratting/plexing/mining/scaning and would notice if a nuet/red came into system all they would have to do now is after said red leaves the system to do a spot check on the moon poses in system... you can use d-scan for this purpose perhaps you should get renters to occupy your moon system to monitor them for you... make it rent free as an instentive.
Ah yes, my corp and alliance mates will save the day! Why didn't I realise that before! It must be, hmm, let me think. Oh yeah, any self respecting ratter rats in the systems with the best sec status and does that correlate with most tower farms are? Hmm.. maybe it doesn't. Also, most PVE players tend to POS up the moment a neutral comes in system and they wander off to do something else until the the neural gets blue balled. I am quite certain they will happily run around the 20 to 50 odd moons in the average system to find a small and ****** bit of EHP to grind for no money. Makes perfect sense. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5333
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:08:00 -
[780] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Oh, I suspect as much as well, but I'd like to hear their reasoning. Because if that's the goal, there are far better ways of doing it than making the data export system not export data properly. to be fair the only difference is now the api is broken intentionally |
|
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
752
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:13:00 -
[781] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Teshania wrote:I love it, Now moon mining is no longer a *Passive Income* Moon mining is not passive income. Moon mining is PvP income. I will keep repeating this until people who have never fought over a POS get the idea.
Have fun repeating this forever. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Forsak3n.
356
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:14:00 -
[782] - Quote
When the initial release was made about syphons I thought that they had the potential for a huge amount of abuse. But I waited patiently to see what would be cooked up. In the mean time, I imagined groups of players using blops and blockade runners to drop covertly into a system. They would anchor dozens of syphons on a single POS (doable but not easy) to briefly disrupt and steal everything they could get their hands on. At least that would require a concerted effort by multiple players.
But with the current stats 1 syphon will pull 60% of a moon's single resource output per hour. (Raws are 1m3 per unit.) Total take is reduced by 20% wastage. 60-12 = 48 units of raw goo per hour up to 1200 units. This syphon will be full in exactly 25 hours. 2 of them will completely shut down any single resource harvesting. 8 will shut down all harvesting on even a 4 resource moon.
20m3 in volume. That's it? A Mobile Small Warp Disruptor I is 65m3. 8 would require only 160m3 in cargo space. An Anathema covert ops frigate has a 190m3 cargohold. A single covert ops frigate could literally shut down all harvesting at a tower, log out at a safe, and then come back tomorrow at the same time to light the covert cyno for a single blockade runner to come get the goo when the syphons are full. (Yes, it can be done.)
One person with 3 accounts can do this.
Abuseable doesn't even begin to describe how bad these numbers are. If this goes live on TQ, every R64-holding alliance in the game is going to take down their moon-mining towers and quit because every R64 they own will be constantly and permanently syphoned.
The goo will not flow.
Besides parking a POS gunner at every moon mining/reaction tower in the game (more alts for the alt throne) this situation can be avoided easily at this stage. Any of these below changes would make things better. But primarily, the volume of syphons and amount syphoned have to be adjusted.
- Make smalls syphon 6 units per hour, not 60. Or a certain small percentage of whatever is coming out, like 5%. 60 is pants-on-head ********.
- Smalls can only syphon from raw extraction.
- Mediums: raw and simple reactors.
- Larges: raw, simple, and complex.
- Make them require to be anchored to work.
- Only 1 can be anchored at a time at any moon.
- Make syphons much larger in volume.
Free Ripley Weaver! |
Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution
115
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:15:00 -
[783] - Quote
I wouldn't be surprised at all if alliance members go round nicking their own alliances moon-goo. Don't Panic.
|
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
61
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:18:00 -
[784] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:I am quite certain they will happily run around the 20 to 50 odd moons in the average system to find a small and ****** bit of EHP to grind for no money. Makes perfect sense.
So long as d-scan works, noting that siphons were dropped should be simple. There is still the issue that the security status for ratting might not encourage anyone to be in system. Perhaps that means the ratters should receive a nice payment for handling the siphons. |
Mister McDerp
University of Caille Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:19:00 -
[785] - Quote
Kat Aclysm made pretty good suggestions how this module could not be total crap |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1362
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:19:00 -
[786] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:I wouldn't be surprised at all if alliance members go round nicking their own alliances moon-goo. I don't understand why so many randoms seem to think that everyone in a null alliance secretly hates their own alliance... why the heck would I go about stealing the goo that pays for my ships? If anything, it's in my best interest to blap every single one of the damn things I see. Just another crap to grind through without any fun gameplay (read: shooting people). Not only we need to grind through structures to capture space nobody is defending, now we will have to grind through structures to keep profiting from our space that nobody is attacking. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1395
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:24:00 -
[787] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote: Ah yes, my corp and alliance mates will save the day! Why didn't I realise that before! It must be, hmm, let me think. Oh yeah, any self respecting ratter rats in the systems with the best sec status and does that correlate with most tower farms are? Hmm.. maybe it doesn't. Also, most PVE players tend to POS up the moment a neutral comes in system and they wander off to do something else until the the neural gets blue balled. I am quite certain they will happily run around the 20 to 50 odd moons in the average system to find a small and ****** bit of EHP to grind for no money. Makes perfect sense.
you have heard of providence right? terrible true sec but filled with ratters.
and yes if you provide free rent to null bears they will be more then happy to patrol the system for you. (i know i would if i were a renter)
plus d-scan will help reduce the amount of posses you have to fly too. (though those pesky systems with 20 moons around one planet will be a ***** to partrol)
moreover good true sec is usually taken by the host alliance and not the renters. so its logical to just shift some renters to key systems that hold r64-r32 moons.
also you can let the renter know which moons to monitor. (afaik there are limited amount of r64 moons... are there any systems where you have multiple r64 moons? or is it more one r64 max per system?)
think of it as an oppurtunity to fill 0.0 with bears that then can be hunted and provide fun between strat ops. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Frankster Ijonen
No tax for you
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:29:00 -
[788] - Quote
I think this is really well thought out. It takes power out of the hands of alliance leadership, and allows small entities or their own line members! - to get their hands on the moon goo. This means that moon goo will never be as subject to restricted supply and market manipulation as was seen in the days of OTEC/NOTEC. This will be good for the market overall and contrary to some goon claims, will make the market more resilient.
I also see this as an opening up of moons to all players. Realistically you need to be in a group of a certain size to control a moon and engage in PVP. This means that for much of the player-base, moon goo means exactly nothing to them. After this change, even a solo player will be able to fly around hunting for siphons others have placed, or dropping their own. This definitely adds depth, and things to do to the game for all players which is A Good Thing.
There will be more activities to conduct while roaming through enemy territory - dropping siphons, or collecting from them (a little?). This might give more reasons to roam, and cause people to spend more time in systems which I suspect will mean there is a greater chance for battles to occur. Perhaps systems owners will even leave one siphon in each system to provide an ambushing point?
|
Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution
115
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:34:00 -
[789] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Not only we need to grind through structures to capture space nobody is defending, now we will have to continuously grind through structures to keep profiting from our space that nobody is attacking.
Hark!
I think I hear violins. Don't Panic.
|
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:36:00 -
[790] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Miner Hottie wrote: Ah yes, my corp and alliance mates will save the day! Why didn't I realise that before! It must be, hmm, let me think. Oh yeah, any self respecting ratter rats in the systems with the best sec status and does that correlate with most tower farms are? Hmm.. maybe it doesn't. Also, most PVE players tend to POS up the moment a neutral comes in system and they wander off to do something else until the the neural gets blue balled. I am quite certain they will happily run around the 20 to 50 odd moons in the average system to find a small and ****** bit of EHP to grind for no money. Makes perfect sense.
you have heard of providence right? terrible true sec but filled with ratters. and yes if you provide free rent to null bears they will be more then happy to patrol the system for you. (i know i would if i were offered the system rent free) hell just say to the renter if any moon goo is lost you have to pay me the difference. plus d-scan will help reduce the amount of posses you have to fly too. (though those pesky systems with 20 moons around one planet will be a ***** to partrol) moreover good true sec is usually taken by the host alliance and not the renters. so its logical to just shift some renters to key systems that hold r64-r32 moons. also you can let the renter know which moons to monitor. (afaik there are limited amount of r64 moons... are there any systems where you have multiple r64 moons? or is it more one r64 max per system?) think of it as an oppurtunity to fill 0.0 with bears that then can be hunted and provide fun between strat ops.
Now I think I understand why you're in a NPC corp.
It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2096
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:50:00 -
[791] - Quote
to have a fully asynchronous mechanic but still some form of conflict you would have to add an active but asynchronous counter to it.
example: - parasite deployes syphons, goes to bed - syphons do their work - pos owner or corp member notices syphons but all he can do is to partially undo the damage (which is not fun)
new: - pos owner or corp member hacks syphon and converts it into a trap - syphon stops working but the parasite doesn't know it - if the parasite comes to take the resources out of it the hacked spyhon it will point the parasite - parasite should now better burn out of point range and run before the pos becomes active (or even worse, the pos owner)
-> full asynchronous cycle where both parties can actually take part in and damage a party. The current implementation allows only damage control for the pos owner but no retribution. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1396
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:50:00 -
[792] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote: Now I think I understand why you're in a NPC corp.
yes my jita price check and cyno alt is in a npc corp...
do you have a valid point to make or just stating it as an observation. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
54
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:53:00 -
[793] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Miner Hottie wrote: Ah yes, my corp and alliance mates will save the day! Why didn't I realise that before! It must be, hmm, let me think. Oh yeah, any self respecting ratter rats in the systems with the best sec status and does that correlate with most tower farms are? Hmm.. maybe it doesn't. Also, most PVE players tend to POS up the moment a neutral comes in system and they wander off to do something else until the the neural gets blue balled. I am quite certain they will happily run around the 20 to 50 odd moons in the average system to find a small and ****** bit of EHP to grind for no money. Makes perfect sense.
you have heard of providence right? terrible true sec but filled with ratters. and yes if you provide free rent to null bears they will be more then happy to patrol the system for you. (i know i would if i were offered the system rent free) hell just say to the renter if any moon goo is lost you have to pay me the difference. plus d-scan will help reduce the amount of posses you have to fly too. (though those pesky systems with 20 moons around one planet will be a ***** to partrol) moreover good true sec is usually taken by the host alliance and not the renters. so its logical to just shift some renters to key systems that hold r64-r32 moons. also you can let the renter know which moons to monitor. (afaik there are limited amount of r64 moons... are there any systems where you have multiple r64 moons? or is it more one r64 max per system?) think of it as an oppurtunity to fill 0.0 with bears that then can be hunted and provide fun between strat ops. You seem to be under the ridiculous delusion that
1) all moon owners own r64 2) only large groups own moons
All of that's flat out untrue. Small lowsec groups do happen to own moons, friend, and they are going to be far less able to absorb the way these can completely nullify that income. They also just so happen to be the types I referred to earlier that are far more timezone locked and thus unable to keep the coverage necessary to constantly patrol for these things.
20 mil to grief them out of a third-to-half a day's moon output assuming they're on the ball checking every day? And you think that's a good thing?
|
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:58:00 -
[794] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Miner Hottie wrote: Now I think I understand why you're in a NPC corp.
yes my jita price check and cyno alt is in a npc corp... do you have a valid point to make or just stating it as an observation.
Expressing my understanding of your point and position. Don't agree with it, but eh, CCP is determined to ignore us and implement this and then they will nerf it to oblivion once goons complete the cycle of deliberate abuse that has started now that they have warned CCP about it being OP. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Jack Haydn
Valar Morghulis. Goonswarm Federation
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:09:00 -
[795] - Quote
That feature in itself is a pretty nice idea, but there's so many bad design decisions around the current implementation, it's mind boggling. There has been a lot of discussion on the game mechanic aspects already, but me personally, as a dev, can't believe that you are going to intentionally report false data on an API.
The API makes the game less of a burden to a certain extent - certainly, as this is the whole reason of having an API in the first place. It allows people to manage things centrally without logging in and checking and copy/pasting values over all day long. The information which is available through such an API is and should be a 1:1 reflection of the in-game state. Now you want to intentionally deliver wrong data, to work around the horrible design decisions you made around a new feature. That completely breaks the spirit of an API. If you want an API in your game, do it right and deliver accurate data. Otherwise just scrap it - either the API or the feature.
You even have a great tool at hand, with which you can somewhat tune the API effect on your new feature: Cache timers. The asset list right now has a 6h cache timer. Decouple onlined silos from the Asset list, like you did with POS, and put them to the POS Detail or their own API and adjust the cache timer instead. People are working on silos in days or weeks, a 6h interval on their updates is not necessarily required and could be extended to make siphons undetectable for x time.
But really, don't intentionally break your own API. That's a really bad decision. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1396
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:12:00 -
[796] - Quote
Kat Ayclism wrote:You seem to be under the ridiculous delusion that
1) all moon owners own r64 2) only large groups own moons
All of that's flat out untrue. Small lowsec groups do happen to own moons, friend, and they are going to be far less able to absorb the way these can completely nullify that income. They also just so happen to be the types I referred to earlier that are far more timezone locked and thus unable to keep the coverage necessary to constantly patrol for these things.
20 mil to grief them out of a third-to-half a day's moon output assuming they're on the ball checking every day? And you think that's a good thing?
ah lowsec... yes. ok you have a point there as i do not spend that much time in that space.
when did i say that all moon owners own r64? i was looking at it from your perspective being in PL. so i was using r64 and r32 as examples of money moons. i was looking at the ability for groups like you to have full time coverage.
i know we only setup moon mining to cover the cost of the pos and typically dont make much profit from it.
moreover small groups like the one my main is in usually set up thier poses in system they live in. So as long as you have a good timezone coverage they should be fine. if anything this will make smaller entities team up with other time zone peeps to have full coverage.
I have stated options in previous posts that would enable a reduced amount of checking. like increasing siphon cycle time to 3 hours. this would reduce to checking only 8 times a day. vrs the 24 that would be required in the op.
so that would mean only 8 cycles would be siphoned and not 24 which would still make poses profitable... but when you start putting on more then one it would have to potential to reduce the profit.
personally i think the idea of the siphon unit is a great idea... totally it needs some work and polishing before november 19th but its worth it...
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Cromzor
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:13:00 -
[797] - Quote
With the original proposal, these would be spammed everywhere. With the suggested limit of 5-10, it makes the feature kinda boring. Either way, fewer moons will get mined and T2 prices will go up. Do folks want T2 stuff to be more expensive?
I think this feature should wait until after the POS revamp is complete. Then the balance issues can be addressed together and come to a more reasonable result. POS setup, management, and defense is too tedious to have it so easily stolen. Kill it for now and go back to the drawing board.
|
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
755
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:14:00 -
[798] - Quote
Frankster Ijonen wrote:I think this is really well thought out. It takes power out of the hands of alliance leadership, and allows small entities or their own line members! - to get their hands on the moon goo. This means that moon goo will never be as subject to restricted supply and market manipulation as was seen in the days of OTEC/NOTEC. This will be good for the market overall and contrary to some goon claims, will make the market more resilient.
I also see this as an opening up of moons to all players. Realistically you need to be in a group of a certain size to control a moon and engage in PVP. This means that for much of the player-base, moon goo means exactly nothing to them. After this change, even a solo player will be able to fly around hunting for siphons others have placed, or dropping their own. This definitely adds depth, and things to do to the game for all players which is A Good Thing.
There will be more activities to conduct while roaming through enemy territory - dropping siphons, or collecting from them (a little?). This might give more reasons to roam, and cause people to spend more time in systems which I suspect will mean there is a greater chance for battles to occur. Perhaps systems owners will even leave one siphon in each system to provide an ambushing point?
Wow, it's like you're Alan Greenspan! And by that I mean, "the guy who got everything totally wrong in the worst way imaginable." |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1396
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:21:00 -
[799] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Miner Hottie wrote: Now I think I understand why you're in a NPC corp.
yes my jita price check and cyno alt is in a npc corp... do you have a valid point to make or just stating it as an observation. Expressing my understanding of your point and position. Don't agree with it, but eh, CCP is determined to ignore us and implement this and then they will nerf it to oblivion once goons complete the cycle of deliberate abuse that has started now that they have warned CCP about it being OP.
you will notice i agree with the goons. though i am rather excited to see thier plan put into motion. its truely a great plan if they can pull it off.
correct me if i am wrong but i saw on twitter the other day a goon saying they just finished scanning 75k moons to figure out where all the new r64 are. if they can siphon half of them that would be a great achievement and they would deserve my respect for it. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Aryndel Vyst
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
639
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:22:00 -
[800] - Quote
I concur. |
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5338
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:22:00 -
[801] - Quote
edit: oops |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
203
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:22:00 -
[802] - Quote
If this is intended to drive conflict and have more players interacting, then people need to be fighting over siphons. As they stand they're nothing but a griefing tool that people can profit from if they can be bothered to. Players can be encouraged to interact like so:
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
The net effect of which is:
1) Siphon owners who are very proactive about their theft can steal the entire output of a tower, but are more likely to be discovered.
2) Siphon owners get diminishing returns by waiting, encouraging them to empty more often. This brings more opportunities to interdict them, and therefore more chances for PVP. If they wait too long, the starbase owner gets everything back without penalty.
3) Siphons cannot be spammed merciessly, resulting in situations where small reaction corps have to clear 50+ structures from their towers at a time.
|
A Research Alt
Perkone Caldari State
143
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:23:00 -
[803] - Quote
Goonswarm owns more than half the R64s in existence, so I don't see why they'd siphon their own belongings. |
Pistonbroke
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:23:00 -
[804] - Quote
This is an awesome feature.
The owners of all those hi-end moons - now they may have to actually "man the guard-room", rather than sitting back, and letting the automated systems do all the work, backed up by reinforced mode.
A chance for smaller groups to harass, disrupt, irritate and even for brave individuals to sneak a bit of that pie for themselves.
Bravo CCP. I am intrigued to see where this goes.
P.S. Please can you hurry up and come up with a "deployable fitting service" of some type - to permit roaming gangs the opportunity to adapt - it's too easy for "home ground" advantage to be played, by gaining intel on what a gangs setup is, and then simply countering it - a deployable mod which could permit a roaming gang to change fit would go a long way towards making roaming gangs more dynamic and effective. |
Huttan Funaila
Terminal Radioactivity Spaceship Samurai
215
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:26:00 -
[805] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:Alternatively look at it from an RP perspective...
A 20m3 module that costs 10 mil can within an hour breach the hardened shields of a structure costing between 6x and 26x its cost and extract items. Something that a full 250 man fleet dedicated to that action cannot do in 10's of hours of play (including reinforcement period). it can also reconfigure data systems of the structure and rewrite data logs to mask its actions but wont touch things like onlining/offlining systems and POS shield harmonics cause u know, who'd want to breach those things!
the whole things stupidly short sighted in initial implementation both in a game mechanics sense and in RP sense and seems to be vastly unbalanced in favour of the aggressors. sort it out. This sort of fits into existing cyberpunk literature already. The Shadowrun series of books has as part of the premise that hackers need to get physically into a facility to hack the computers. So you get hackers parachuting into danger and dangling from ceilings like the Mission Impossible scene with Tom Cruise. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5339
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:26:00 -
[806] - Quote
xttz wrote:If this is intended to drive conflict and have more players interacting, then people need to be fighting over siphons. As they stand they're nothing but a griefing tool that people can profit from if they can be bothered to. Players can be encouraged to interact like so:
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
The net effect of which is: 1) Siphon owners who are very proactive about their theft can steal the entire output of a tower, but are more likely to be discovered. 2) Siphon owners get diminishing returns by waiting, encouraging them to empty more often. This brings more opportunities to interdict them, and therefore more chances for PVP. If they wait too long, the starbase owner gets everything back without penalty. 3) Siphons cannot be spammed merciessly, resulting in situations where small reaction corps have to clear 50+ structures from their towers at a time.
This is a really good idea, I like it. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:35:00 -
[807] - Quote
xttz wrote:If this is intended to drive conflict and have more players interacting, then people need to be fighting over siphons. As they stand they're nothing but a griefing tool that people can profit from if they can be bothered to. Players can be encouraged to interact like so:
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
The net effect of which is: 1) Siphon owners who are very proactive about their theft can steal the entire output of a tower, but are more likely to be discovered. 2) Siphon owners get diminishing returns by waiting, encouraging them to empty more often. This brings more opportunities to interdict them, and therefore more chances for PVP. If they wait too long, the starbase owner gets everything back without penalty. 3) Siphons cannot be spammed merciessly, resulting in situations where small reaction corps have to clear 50+ structures from their towers at a time.
Trying to get enough nerfs to the module so you don't lose your moongoo superiority? Oh you.... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1396
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:37:00 -
[808] - Quote
xttz wrote:If this is intended to drive conflict and have more players interacting, then people need to be fighting over siphons. As they stand they're nothing but a griefing tool that people can profit from if they can be bothered to. Players can be encouraged to interact like so:
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
The net effect of which is: 1) Siphon owners who are very proactive about their theft can steal the entire output of a tower, but are more likely to be discovered. 2) Siphon owners get diminishing returns by waiting, encouraging them to empty more often. This brings more opportunities to interdict them, and therefore more chances for PVP. If they wait too long, the starbase owner gets everything back without penalty. 3) Siphons cannot be spammed merciessly, resulting in situations where small reaction corps have to clear 50+ structures from their towers at a time.
i like this idea... i was also thinking what if the siphon unit was chance based? with a skill that increases chance for siphon.
starts off with 33% chance of siphon and goes up to 66% with skill at V.
this would make the unit unpredictable which IMO is a good thing.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
82
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:38:00 -
[809] - Quote
xttz wrote:
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
I like this, but I think it could be tightened up a little bit. Instead of having the siphon transfer any moongoo at all per "tick", have it just build up an internal counter representing a potential amount to be taken. Then, when the siphoneer mashes "STEAL," the amount promised is deducted into a jetcan just as outlined. This way, there is no reason to even have a complicated routine on the AssetList call to calculate the amount stolen and whatnot -- the silos themselves haven't even been touched yet, and the siphon remains unseen by the API until it is too late. KISS principle in action.
Edit: To prevent a POS owner from just emptying the silo and undoing the work the siphon has done, lock the affected silo online until the siphon has been cleared. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1335
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:39:00 -
[810] - Quote
xttz wrote:If this is intended to drive conflict and have more players interacting, then people need to be fighting over siphons. As they stand they're nothing but a griefing tool that people can profit from if they can be bothered to. Players can be encouraged to interact like so:
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
The net effect of which is: 1) Siphon owners who are very proactive about their theft can steal the entire output of a tower, but are more likely to be discovered. 2) Siphon owners get diminishing returns by waiting, encouraging them to empty more often. This brings more opportunities to interdict them, and therefore more chances for PVP. If they wait too long, the starbase owner gets everything back without penalty. 3) Siphons cannot be spammed merciessly, resulting in situations where small reaction corps have to clear 50+ structures from their towers at a time.
This is the most elegant solution I have seen. It prevents greifing at scale, encourages individual actors, rewards active partipation, and still have the nice market impact effects for that dynamic.
They are probably still too cheap and too small in m3, but this eliminates the really nasty problems.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1396
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:39:00 -
[811] - Quote
A Research Alt wrote:Goonswarm owns more than half the R64s in existence, so I don't see why they'd siphon their own belongings.
really this is goonswarm we are talking about... remember alts provide anonymity so how would the top goon brass know its one of thier line members chewing the fat? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Powers Sa
691
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:40:00 -
[812] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote: Trying to get enough nerfs to the module so you don't lose your moongoo superiority? Oh you....
Wastage must exists, destroying resources from the game is a good sink for money printers. Without waste factor, only small alliances with not enough numbers will be harmed. This expansion is supposed to empower the weak, not to settle the superiority of the powerful.
That's not even a real rebuttal. lol |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:41:00 -
[813] - Quote
ROFL, redesigning a module that still didn't see the light to serve your own purposes |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4856
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:45:00 -
[814] - Quote
Powers Sa wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote: Trying to get enough nerfs to the module so you don't lose your moongoo superiority? Oh you....
Wastage must exists, destroying resources from the game is a good sink for money printers. Without waste factor, only small alliances with not enough numbers will be harmed. This expansion is supposed to empower the weak, not to settle the superiority of the powerful.
That's not even a real rebuttal. Does it matter, GOON There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Kenneth Skybound
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
65
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:46:00 -
[815] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
a) Fair enough. So long as there is still significant losses.
b) Absolutely not. These things are not hard to find nor hard to kill. They do come at a cost to the thief which racks up really quick. A cov ops filled with 20 of these is going to cost the player 200million or so simply to deploy them, assuming all get deployed. That's 10 starbases (2 per starbase) which can be checked more easily than the thief placed the siphons.
If someone wants to take a blockade runner FILLED with these (multiple billions of ISK) then go right ahead. Those multiple billions of ISK worth of siphons will quite rapidly be gone if the POS owning corp/alliance actually checks on their stuff. It really shouldn't be all that hard for someone to find these in due course.
Don't give in to those who cry about needing to be on 23/7 or camping every POS with instacanes. They miss the point of corporate assets (POS is on a corporate, not personal level), allies and large 1 hour cycle times on something detectable by directional scan!
Limiting the number deployed simply isn't needed. Cost vs reward does that and frankly 10m gives a suitable cost. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4856
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:47:00 -
[816] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Expressing my understanding of your point and position. Don't agree with it, but eh, CCP is determined to ignore us and implement this and then they will nerf it to oblivion once goons complete the cycle of deliberate abuse that has started now that they have warned CCP about it being OP. Oh you noticed the cycle ...
Still working on drone assist, it appears they are PERFECTLY BALANCED and cannot be abused There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
49
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:48:00 -
[817] - Quote
I am not reading all the pages to see if this has been mentioned.
Why would these siphons be accessible by anyone and everyone? If the owner of the unit deployed is noted in the info window why would the siphon not have secure container properties thus allowing a password? This would force the siphon owner to empty it daily for it to be effective. It also means the POS owner would be unable to recover stolen material before destroying it.
Having a siphon password would make the unit much more effective at theft and make the theft more meaningful. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4856
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:49:00 -
[818] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:I am not reading all the pages to see if this has been mentioned.
Why would these siphons be accessible by anyone and everyone? If the owner of the unit dropped is noted in the info window why would the siphon not have secure container properties thus allowing a password? This would force the siphon owner to empty it daily for it to be effective. It also means the POS owner would be unable to recover stolen material before destroying it.
Having a siphon password would make the unit much more effective at theft and make the theft more meaningful. I must support this. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:49:00 -
[819] - Quote
Kenneth Skybound wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think. a) Fair enough. So long as there is still significant losses. b) Absolutely not. These things are not hard to find nor hard to kill. They do come at a cost to the thief which racks up really quick. A cov ops filled with 20 of these is going to cost the player 200million or so simply to deploy them, assuming all get deployed. That's 10 starbases (2 per starbase) which can be checked more easily than the thief placed the siphons. If someone wants to take a blockade runner FILLED with these (multiple billions of ISK) then go right ahead. Those multiple billions of ISK worth of siphons will quite rapidly be gone if the POS owning corp/alliance actually checks on their stuff. It really shouldn't be all that hard for someone to find these in due course. Don't give in to those who cry about needing to be on 23/7 or camping every POS with instacanes. They miss the point of corporate assets (POS is on a corporate, not personal level), allies and large 1 hour cycle times on something detectable by directional scan! Limiting the number deployed simply isn't needed. Cost vs reward does that and frankly 10m gives a suitable cost.
Applause |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:49:00 -
[820] - Quote
xttz wrote:I
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
I don't agree. Waste should (and logically do) occur during the syphon action and not after. With your idea, if you just destroy the syphon without empty it before, there is no waste at all since all the content is returned in the silo with no others drawback.
+1 for the API idea though, it's seem to be the most logical way to do it.
|
|
Alner Greyl
Black Mesa Inc Legion of xXDEATHXx
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:52:00 -
[821] - Quote
Looks like a not funny joke.
May be it's cool for expensive moons. But what about common moons? For example. I need to mine something very cheap because I need for my reactions. So some1 will need 10 mil to buy a siphon and take my moon mats. So without my online 24 hours a day I can't save even my cheap moons? And I'll need to offline all my pos - really cool situation.
I don't want to spend 24 hours in game to protect pos from siphons. And yeah, CCP go on with cloak afk ships. You are making everything to play EVE in cloak. Most of this siphons will be installed with cloak ships. We can't have a defence from cloak ship and you are adding more weapons to them.
My post looks like a carebear crying, but it's my time and I hate cloak wars. It makes fun only for 1 side who is in cloak and have a big cargo. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4856
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:52:00 -
[822] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:xttz wrote:I
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
I don't agree. Waste should (and logically do) occur during the syphon action and not after. With your idea, if you just destroy the syphon without empty it before, there is no waste at all since all the content is returned in the silo with no others drawback. +1 for the API idea though, it's seem to be the most logical way to do it. Simply treat exploding like an empty command then. But the stuff goes nowhere. (or in a jetcan I suppose, AFTER waste) There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
TZeer
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:52:00 -
[823] - Quote
Oh the tears the tears!!
Brings a glee on my face.
Boho, you actually have to live in your space where you have moons. Oh the cruelty....
LOL!! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4856
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:53:00 -
[824] - Quote
It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:53:00 -
[825] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:xttz wrote:I
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
I don't agree. Waste should (and logically do) occur during the syphon action and not after. With your idea, if you just destroy the syphon without empty it before, there is no waste at all since all the content is returned in the silo with no others drawback. +1 for the API idea though, it's seem to be the most logical way to do it.
I see the API as a D-Scan with range enough to cover the entire universe. "Let me check the API, OH, somebody is leeching moongoo from 10 jumps away, better to remove that **** from my POS, thankfully I don't have to patrol my 20 POS continuously" |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:55:00 -
[826] - Quote
Alner Greyl wrote:Looks like a not funny joke. May be it's cool for expensive moons. But what about common moons? For example. I need to mine something very cheap because I need for my reactions. So some1 will need 10 mil to buy a siphon and take my moon mats. So without my online 24 hours a day I can't save even my cheap moons? And I'll need to offline all my pos - really cool situation. I don't want to spend 24 hours in game to protect pos from siphons. And yeah, CCP go on with cloak afk ships. You are making everything to play EVE in cloak. Most of this siphons will be installed with cloak ships. We can't have a defence from cloak ship and you are adding more weapons to them. My post looks like a carebear crying, but it's my time and I hate cloak wars. It makes fun only for 1 side who is in cloak and have a big cargo.
POS -> Corporate assets, not personal
Seriously, you don't know how to decloak and trap a ship with your pos, bubbles and some cans? Go to wormhole space to see it yourself please. |
Simrod
z-inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:56:00 -
[827] - Quote
A pos owner will now start mining some worthless stuff of the moos if its there and react the valuable stuff imediately so it wont be syphoned. Tthe syphons go for the raw useless moon goo first ..
|
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1980
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:57:00 -
[828] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:xttz wrote:I
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
I don't agree. Waste should (and logically do) occur during the syphon action and not after. With your idea, if you just destroy the syphon without empty it before, there is no waste at all since all the content is returned in the silo with no others drawback. +1 for the API idea though, it's seem to be the most logical way to do it.
The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1366
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:58:00 -
[829] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:thankfully I don't have to patrol my 20 POS continuously" Thankfully I don't have to waste my time flying from A to B to C every hour just to see that everything is okay and can focus on fighting people (you know, the actual fun part of EVE) when they try to steal from me.
Oh wait, it would work like that if the implementation made sense. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
83
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:00:00 -
[830] - Quote
TZeer wrote:Oh the tears the tears!!
Brings a glee on my face.
Boho, you actually have to live in your space where you have moons. Oh the cruelty....
LOL!! Uh
did you just denigrate someone for not "living in their space"
while being in one of the most icebergtastic nullsec alliances in the game This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
|
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:00:00 -
[831] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:xttz wrote:I
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
I don't agree. Waste should (and logically do) occur during the syphon action and not after. With your idea, if you just destroy the syphon without empty it before, there is no waste at all since all the content is returned in the silo with no others drawback. +1 for the API idea though, it's seem to be the most logical way to do it. The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.
Honourable space combat? I guess we have to redefine that word. Specially since the battle will never be even. On the other hand, forcing players to check their POS will even things. The powerful is strong but static, the weak is stealthy and puny. If you make the weak only puny.... well
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:thankfully I don't have to patrol my 20 POS continuously" Thankfully I don't have to waste my time flying from A to B to C every hour just to see that everything is okay and can focus on fighting people (you know, the actual fun part of EVE) when they try to steal from me. Oh wait, it would work like that if the implementation made sense.
So you want to own 20 POS, do PVP and own everybody in the universe.... Everything at the same time. That makes sense |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
262
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:03:00 -
[832] - Quote
Nice work CCP! Pity we did not have those during tech era, but they will be useful even today, especially as some r64 are going at almost half the price of thech before OTEC creation. Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4858
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:06:00 -
[833] - Quote
Querns wrote:TZeer wrote:Oh the tears the tears!!
Brings a glee on my face.
Boho, you actually have to live in your space where you have moons. Oh the cruelty....
LOL!! Uh did you just denigrate someone for not "living in their space" while being in one of the most icebergtastic nullsec alliances in the game Heh... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:07:00 -
[834] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:Nice work CCP! Pity we did not have those during tech era, but they will be useful even today, especially as some r64 are going at almost half the price of thech before OTEC creation.
BTW, I don't think the price of tech II will be so affected as some preachers of the apocalypse are announcing here. The wastage and the losses of material hauling towards Jita will affect it, yes, but the rest will be in the central trade hub one way or the other. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4858
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:08:00 -
[835] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:Nice work CCP! Pity we did not have those during tech era, but they will be useful even today, especially as some r64 are going at almost half the price of thech before OTEC creation. Would've been handy to toss those on all of PL's tech, to be sure. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:21:00 -
[836] - Quote
Zappity wrote: Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC?
Good question. Got an example of a change that a group of 50, 100, 500, or 1,000 can make use of that a group of 30,000 can't make use of more effectively?
|
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:23:00 -
[837] - Quote
Querns wrote:TZeer wrote:Oh the tears the tears!!
Brings a glee on my face.
Boho, you actually have to live in your space where you have moons. Oh the cruelty....
LOL!! Uh did you just denigrate someone for not "living in their space" while being in one of the most icebergtastic nullsec alliances in the game
Honestly, though, if somebody doesn't make this same dumbshit post on every page, I will be disappointed, so good on you, ironic NCdot guy. |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
953
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:23:00 -
[838] - Quote
There's really nothing that accomplishes this except giving ships in a fleet stacking penalties to EHP and damage, which would be completely insane and dumb.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:26:00 -
[839] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Zappity wrote: Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC?
Good question. Got an example of a change that a group of 50, 100, 500, or 1,000 can make use of that a group of 30,000 can't make use of more effectively?
There's a little misunderstanding here. Maybe goons (or any other big alliance) can spam these syphons on posses of little alliances and all that. But the real little group of players usually don't own a territory, much less a POS (unless it is in wormhole space) Whatever the case, patrolling a single POS or one single system is much easier than doing the same all over a nullsec region. Can they lose moon materials or polymers like the big alliances? Yes and no. Yes, because there will be times when they are not watching (ie, at work, sleeping...), but it will be much easier for them to watch their only POS
Small alliances count as medium size group of players. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
760
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:28:00 -
[840] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.
In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway.
I think it should work like the loot pi+¦ata in data/relic sites, another really fun game mechanic CCP thought of all by themselves!
|
|
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
223
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:29:00 -
[841] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:xttz wrote:I
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
I don't agree. Waste should (and logically do) occur during the syphon action and not after. With your idea, if you just destroy the syphon without empty it before, there is no waste at all since all the content is returned in the silo with no others drawback. +1 for the API idea though, it's seem to be the most logical way to do it.
The aim is to counteract the 'fire and forget' griefing aspect of this feature. Otherwise siphons would just be thrown around purely to cause waste, with no intention for the owner to ever come back. A fair system must involve both sides making a continuous effort to inflict damage on the other, otherwise it is unbalanced.
If people are so keen for starbase owners to make a constant effort to defend their holdings, why shouldn't attackers have to put in the same effort to hurt them? This implementation means agressors can inflict loss, but they have to stick around for more than 20 seconds to do it. |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:29:00 -
[842] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.
This is a peculiar thread indeed.
Looks pretty normal to me. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:29:00 -
[843] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.
In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway. I think it should work like the loot pi+¦ata in data/relic sites, another really fun game mechanic CCP thought of all by themselves!
How do you expect that a small group of players can loot multiple containers under POS' guns? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4858
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:31:00 -
[844] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.
This is a peculiar thread indeed. Looks pretty normal to me. This will be GREAT There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:33:00 -
[845] - Quote
xttz wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:xttz wrote:I
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
I don't agree. Waste should (and logically do) occur during the syphon action and not after. With your idea, if you just destroy the syphon without empty it before, there is no waste at all since all the content is returned in the silo with no others drawback. +1 for the API idea though, it's seem to be the most logical way to do it. The aim is to counteract the 'fire and forget' griefing aspect of this feature. Otherwise siphons would just be thrown around purely to cause loss, with no intention to ever come back. A fair system must involve both sides making a continuous effort to inflict damage on the other, otherwise it is unbalanced. If people are so keen for starbase owners to make a constant effort to defend their holdings, why shouldn't attackers have to put in the same effort to hurt them? This implementation means agressors can inflict loss, but they have to stick around for more than 20 seconds to do it.
Other alliances can afford that, but individual players spending 10m just to cause damage with no intention to get the money back it's like suicide ganking empty freighters with catalysts.
Oh wait, could that imply that we are addressing the same problem differently if it affects the big guys in the neighbourhood? Why not nerfing suicide ganking of catalysts too? Oh yeah, the victims are goons, that's not fair..... |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1129
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:33:00 -
[846] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.
In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway. I think it should work like the loot pi+¦ata in data/relic sites, another really fun game mechanic CCP thought of all by themselves! How do you expect that a small group of players can loot multiple containers under POS' guns?
warp to container, loot container, warp away
a POS takes a loooooong time to actually react and log a player
We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:37:00 -
[847] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.
In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway. I think it should work like the loot pi+¦ata in data/relic sites, another really fun game mechanic CCP thought of all by themselves! How do you expect that a small group of players can loot multiple containers under POS' guns? warp to container, loot container, warp away a POS takes a loooooong time to actually react and log a player
Unless you plan to use fake cans like in the hacking minigame, I see no reason to do it differently than a regular can. Tractor beaming those little containers will give enough time to the POS, because you can only tractor beam one each time
PS Try it yourself with the minigame, compare the time you need to loot the cans and then warp out. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1396
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:37:00 -
[848] - Quote
if the siphon unit is destroyed before the first tick is there any lost moon goo? or does the siphon only take after one cycle? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
913
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:38:00 -
[849] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:Arrendis wrote:Zappity wrote: Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC?
Good question. Got an example of a change that a group of 50, 100, 500, or 1,000 can make use of that a group of 30,000 can't make use of more effectively? There's really nothing that accomplishes this except giving ships in a fleet stacking penalties to EHP and damage, which would be completely insane and dumb.
Line-of-sight shooting only.
Not just because only a few people at the edge of a large blob could shoot, but because whenever the blob formed up, the server would just melt. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:39:00 -
[850] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:if the siphon unit is destroyed before the first tick is there any lost moon goo? or does the siphon only take after one cycle?
It will be fair to need at least 1 cycle |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4858
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:40:00 -
[851] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.
In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway. I think it should work like the loot pi+¦ata in data/relic sites, another really fun game mechanic CCP thought of all by themselves! How do you expect that a small group of players can loot multiple containers under POS' guns? warp to container, loot container, warp away a POS takes a loooooong time to actually react and log a player um, they were referring to the hacking minigame.. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4858
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:42:00 -
[852] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Krios Ahzek wrote:Arrendis wrote:Zappity wrote: Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC?
Good question. Got an example of a change that a group of 50, 100, 500, or 1,000 can make use of that a group of 30,000 can't make use of more effectively? There's really nothing that accomplishes this except giving ships in a fleet stacking penalties to EHP and damage, which would be completely insane and dumb. Line-of-sight shooting only. Not just because only a few people at the edge of a large blob could shoot, but because whenever the blob formed up, the server would just melt. Making it easier for us to 10% tidi every single fight... i like it There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:43:00 -
[853] - Quote
mynnna wrote:
The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.
The waste factor isn't a punishing system, but an incentive to react faster, cause you know that even if you have the number superiority and will win that ~~~honourable space combat~~~ there will be a loss that depend on your reaction time. Taking that into acocunt, the tool become a great thing to provoke fight. So you aren't punished for not monitoring your POS, but you are actually punished for not taking action against the thieves. Which goes in total adequation with what EVE is all about. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
760
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:46:00 -
[854] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.
In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway. I think it should work like the loot pi+¦ata in data/relic sites, another really fun game mechanic CCP thought of all by themselves! How do you expect that a small group of players can loot multiple containers under POS' guns?
It's a joke, son. /foghorn
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
87
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:48:00 -
[855] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:mynnna wrote:
The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.
The waste factor isn't a punishing system, but an incentive to react faster, cause you know that even if you have the number superiority and will win that ~~~honourable space combat~~~ there will be a loss that depend on your reaction time. Taking that into acocunt, the tool become a great thing to provoke fight. So you aren't punished for not monitoring your POS, but you are actually punished for not taking action against the thieves. Which goes in total adequation with what EVE is all about. A 10m ISK, 100k EHP module is not worth fighting over for either party
If the siphonhaver logs on and finds his shit destroyed, welp, time to anchor another one from the 500 he has kicking around inside his blockade runner
If the poshaver logs on and finds his shit burgled, welp, time to assume control of the pos guns and shoot a single laser at the siphon until it goes away
The very nature of the interactions dissuades any actual interaction between siphonhaver and poshaver because erecting the siphon, scooping from the siphon, and destroying the siphon can all be done in complete safety
This is why things that actually matter like SBUs and POSes themselves and sov structures have things like timers and gobs of EHP This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1981
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:50:00 -
[856] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:mynnna wrote:
The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.
The waste factor isn't a punishing system, but an incentive to react faster, cause you know that even if you have the number superiority and will win that ~~~honourable space combat~~~ there will be a loss that depend on your reaction time. Taking that into acocunt, the tool become a great thing to provoke fight. So you aren't punished for not monitoring your POS, but you are actually punished for not taking action against the thieves. Which goes in total adequation with what EVE is all about.
Nothing I can possibly do can allow me to "react faster" if I'm a USTZ corp and someone in AUTZ drops a siphon on my pos just after downtime, or whatever suitable combo of times reverses the situation. This is still the case if 100% of the loss comes through player action, but it requires that you are out to actually steal from me to happen, not to just come by and spam a bunch with no intent to return. It's a tremendous difference. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:50:00 -
[857] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Wow, it's like you're Alan Greenspan! And by that I mean, "the guy who got everything totally wrong in the worst way imaginable."
...
Dammit, now I need to clean up the tea all over my desk. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
87
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:53:00 -
[858] - Quote
Incidentally
a nice way to even up the skill requirements for siphonhavers vs poshavers is to require Anchoring 5 for the siphon :sun:
I mean, it deploys, anchors, and onlines all by itself, surely one needs to spend much time in supplication and introspection to pull that off This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1222
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:54:00 -
[859] - Quote
CCP Legion wrote:Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.
As is, these stand to completely shut down T2 production. They are cheap, laughably cheap, and the fact that they stack can shut down a pos completely. Combined with no notification? It's just too much.
Tone them down somewhat.
Make a skill for how many you can deploy. "Station Siphoning", or whatever. 1 per skill rank can be active.
Then, make a skill that delays the notification of the owner when the siphon is activated. 30 or 60 minutes per rank, whichever fits best. If you can outright tell the API to lie, this should be within reason.
Please note, I do not have or use a POS (outside of a wormhole anyway), nor do I moon mine, or any other such.
What I am, on the other hand, is rubbing my hands with glee at the sheer amount of grief I could inflict with these as is. Given timezone shenanigans, I can shut down system after system with myself and a few buddies/alts, even if you cap me at 5 per character.
Remember, folks. What one person can do, a thousand can do a thousand times better. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1396
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:54:00 -
[860] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:MeBiatch wrote:if the siphon unit is destroyed before the first tick is there any lost moon goo? or does the siphon only take after one cycle? It will be fair to need at least 1 cycle
i would think so if you are on the ball then you can make sure there is no loss of goo. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
|
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
65
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 17:56:00 -
[861] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Trying to get enough nerfs to the module so you don't lose your moongoo superiority? Oh you....
Wastage must exists, destroying resources from the game is a good sink for money printers. Without waste factor, only small alliances with not enough numbers will be harmed. This expansion is supposed to empower the weak, not to settle the superiority of the powerful.
I see you missed the part where waste increases the longer you wait to empty it... so if all you want to do is grief, just leave it for the pos owner to empty daily. If you're a little guy who's active and looking to make bank off of this, you empty your siphons as often as you can.
About the only change I'd make is explicitly saying that the amount put back into the silos when the siphon gets destroyed is subject to the same scaling waste issue that emptying the siphon is. That way you reward the more alert and active defenders, too. |
Alner Greyl
Black Mesa Inc Legion of xXDEATHXx
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:01:00 -
[862] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Alner Greyl wrote:Looks like a not funny joke. May be it's cool for expensive moons. But what about common moons? For example. I need to mine something very cheap because I need for my reactions. So some1 will need 10 mil to buy a siphon and take my moon mats. So without my online 24 hours a day I can't save even my cheap moons? And I'll need to offline all my pos - really cool situation. I don't want to spend 24 hours in game to protect pos from siphons. And yeah, CCP go on with cloak afk ships. You are making everything to play EVE in cloak. Most of this siphons will be installed with cloak ships. We can't have a defence from cloak ship and you are adding more weapons to them. My post looks like a carebear crying, but it's my time and I hate cloak wars. It makes fun only for 1 side who is in cloak and have a big cargo. POS -> Corporate assets, not personal Seriously, you don't know how to decloak and trap a ship with your pos, bubbles and some cans? Go to wormhole space to see it yourself please.
Are you flying on cloak ships? I read your answer and i'm sure that it's your main ship :) I know how to decloak, how to catch e.t.c. but it won't help if you are for example EU TZ and your new cloaky friend is US TZ. Plus I prefer not cloak EVE :) |
Vehawn Kwi
Galaxy Punks Executive Outcomes
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:02:00 -
[863] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Good afternoon capsuleers! CCP SoniClover is here with a new Dev Blog, to shed some light on the POS siphoning units that will be coming with EVE Online: Rubicon on November 19th. While the statistics and numbers are subject to change pending final balancing, please take a look at his new Dev Blog to read all about the moneymaking opportunities that will be coming with this new feature in Rubicon. Enjoy!
I am all for it as soon as they come up with a POS remote manage skill so that once trained you can kind of do what we do with PI today. Instead of view in planet mode you would get view in POS mode where one could remotely take active ownership as pos gunner. The skill should then for every level give you a distance capability as we have with market orders. Say level 0 system only, level 1- 2 systems, lvl 2- 3 systems, lvl 3- 5 systems, lvl 4- 10 systems and lvl 5- regional control. It would still give that active requirement while not making the defense of said POS unbearable. The owner would still need to visit the POS to collect all assets with a "indy" as well as to add fuel. There should also be a mail that is sent when an unauthorized removal takes place. So if your having something stolen from you it would be apparent how much (due to only having one siphon unit available). But have it mail everyvtime its stolen from e.g. every hour a mail will be sent. so if you get 10 mails etc etc...you all get the picture. It solves the RMT without activity issue. I believe that a reasonable person would agree to this. What say you?
And yes I can see where this could lead to people dropping POSs with just guns and remotely take an active defense. But that means a toon that is dedicated and can only manage one POS at a time. This skill should only be applicable if the POS is in NPC space (accessible to all except when criminal status or NPC standings are not sufficient to even drop a POS in said system) or if NULL space is owned by said Corp or Alliance (since players can't deploy POSs individually but only for Corp). Better :) |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
65
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:06:00 -
[864] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:Arrendis wrote:Zappity wrote: Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC?
Good question. Got an example of a change that a group of 50, 100, 500, or 1,000 can make use of that a group of 30,000 can't make use of more effectively? There's really nothing that accomplishes this except giving ships in a fleet stacking penalties to EHP and damage, which would be completely insane and dumb.
Exactly. Larger, more organized groups will always enjoy significant advantages purely because they have more human resources to devote to solving any problem. If CCP were to put in something like fleet stacking penalties (for example), we'd just form up a larger number of smaller fleets, making us of having things like shared communications and control infrastructure outside of the actual game, having a larger number of FCs between all of the CFC member alliances, etc etc. It might not be easy, but a workaround would be found. |
Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
54
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:15:00 -
[865] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:CCP Legion wrote:Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required. As is, these stand to completely shut down T2 production. They are cheap, laughably cheap, and the fact that they stack can shut down a pos completely. Combined with no notification? It's just too much. Tone them down somewhat. Make a skill for how many you can deploy. "Station Siphoning", or whatever. 1 per skill rank can be active. Then, make a skill that delays the notification of the owner when the siphon is activated. 30 or 60 minutes per rank, whichever fits best. If you can outright tell the API to lie, this should be within reason. Please note, I do not have or use a POS (outside of a wormhole anyway), nor do I moon mine, or any other such. What I am, on the other hand, is rubbing my hands with glee at the sheer amount of grief I could inflict with these as is. Given timezone shenanigans, I can shut down system after system with myself and a few buddies/alts, even if you cap me at 5 per character. Remember, folks. What one person can do, a thousand can do a thousand times better. Exactly this. Although I do have moons that I manage, you can bet your ass that I am also going to be abusing the hell out of these if they're implemented as is. You think some small group with less income can do some damage with these? Wait til you ******* see what we can do. |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:20:00 -
[866] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:mynnna wrote:
The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.
The waste factor isn't a punishing system, but an incentive to react faster, cause you know that even if you have the number superiority and will win that ~~~honourable space combat~~~ there will be a loss that depend on your reaction time. Taking that into acocunt, the tool become a great thing to provoke fight. So you aren't punished for not monitoring your POS, but you are actually punished for not taking action against the thieves. Which goes in total adequation with what EVE is all about. Nothing I can possibly do can allow me to "react faster" if I'm a USTZ corp and someone in AUTZ drops a siphon on my pos just after downtime, or whatever suitable combo of times reverses the situation. This is still the case if 100% of the loss comes through player action, but it requires that you are out to actually steal from me to happen, not to just come by and spam a bunch with no intent to return. It's a tremendous difference.
If the thief set a syphon with 0% waste, maybe you won't be as quick to remove it as if there is a 20% waste, cause you know your problem isn't solved only by killing the thieve, but by removing something that cause you more trouble than just the "possibility" of someone thieving.
To take your own example, the player that placed the syphon isn't maybe in your TZ and maybe can't retrieve what is stored in the syphon before the next day, so the loss he take is compasated by the loss you took.. You would have saved 80% of what's inside, but a 20% would have been wasted and the next day both you and him will plan accordingly.
Also, why is it bad if someone use this module without the intention to steal? Is stealing considered like griefing? How does a waste of 20% would be considered griefing and not a loss of 100%? If I want really to grief, I will take the goo in my cargohold, jetisson it and shoot the can so the loss is 100% instead of 20, so you face the same problem you try to denounce, with or without waste. |
Zappity
Kurved Space
560
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:22:00 -
[867] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think. Why don't you tell us what you are trying to achieve with the waste aspect? Because at the moment it is what is most broken. Why isn't loss to the afk corp from theft adequate? Increase the siphon amount but remove waste.
And the limitation on numbers will make no difference to alliances while limiting play for smaller groups. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
65
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:23:00 -
[868] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Arrendis wrote:Zappity wrote: Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC?
Good question. Got an example of a change that a group of 50, 100, 500, or 1,000 can make use of that a group of 30,000 can't make use of more effectively? There's a little misunderstanding here. Maybe goons (or any other big alliance) can spam these syphons on posses of little alliances and all that. But the real little group of players usually don't own a territory, much less a POS (unless it is in wormhole space) Whatever the case, patrolling a single POS or one single system is much easier than doing the same all over a nullsec region. Can they lose moon materials or polymers like the big alliances? Yes and no. Yes, because there will be times when they are not watching (ie, at work, sleeping...), but it will be much easier for them to watch their only POS Small alliances count as medium size group of players.
Except now your small group is stuck watching their POS. It's like living in a wormhole, except instead of 'make sure you always leave a scanner at home', you wind up with 'make sure you always leave a monitor on the POS. Logged in.'
Want to go on a roam? Great, just don't be gone too long, you might be losing money. Or maybe Bob can't go. Or maybe Bob just has to keep an alt on a second account logged in to watch the one POS. Let's assume that - let's assume you're looking at 1 pilot out of 50* having to be watching the POS at any time, on an alt. Assume 50% attention for the sake of relatively rapid detection, and because it makes the numbers nice and neat, and it's just easier to work with nice, neat numbers.
You are now devoting 1% of your corp's efforts to watching a single POS.
Note: Not 1% of your corp's gameplay, because someone has to be watching this POS all the time. 1% of your players' lives, taken in aggregate. Now, assuming like most people our hypothetical players get (low-balling) 6 hrs sleep, devote half an hour to getting ready for work, half an hour for dinner, and have a 30-minute commute, and spend 8 hrs at work, that's 1% of your available 1/3 of your life. So 3%.
Do you think a small group absorbs that more easily than the CFC absorbs some monetary losses? Who do you think has an easier time swinging into a system in a scanner-fit covops and dropping combat probes to look for these siphons? (D-scan? Sure, if all the moons are within 15au of one another. Otherwise, screw it, decent skills and knowing what planets friendly towers are on lets me cover all of them in a fraction of the time.)
* - We're being generous here, because a lot of those solo towers run by small groups in low-sec aren't even that big. At 25 players, it's 2% of the corp's actual, RL lives (or 6% of their free time). At 10 players, it's 5% (15%). Are you the guy willing to give up almost 1/6 of your life to babysitting a POS? ONE POS? Is 1/6 of your life worth that little ISK? Is 1/33rd (3%) of your life so valueless to you?
I mean, sure, you're already working a second job playing EVE, but... |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
677
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:25:00 -
[869] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.
Yeah, that will be tons of fun. Everyone fleet up for the "go warp to all the moons in our region to look for anchorable structures" fleet!
Won't that be fun? I'm gonna go sub another six accounts right now because this just sounds so interesting and ~*emergent*~...
There is only one good thing about this terrible expansion and it's the warp speed changes... literally the only good thing that's happened to EVE online in the last two years.
tl;dr: Get your head examined, friend. |
Johny Tyler
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:26:00 -
[870] - Quote
How are you planning to collect from these things? What ship has a 1200 m/3 cargo hold that you want to put within 50km of a POS?
I admit my experience with POS is mostly limited to null-sec and WH pos, and never moon mining...
Also, while I did read all the CCP posts in the thread, I just skimmed most of pages 20 - 40ish so I don't know for sure if this has been brought up...
I really like the idea in general. I hope this will spark more fighting.
Maybe I deserved to be flamed for not knowing enough about POS mechanics, but my impression is that actually collecting the materials out of these devices will be difficult at best for someone who is not the POS owner. I imagine this as just one more chore for the POS owner to go around collect all the siphoned materials then man a gun and blow them up. Unless you can collect from them then the time, irritation, and waste are the only things you achieve. |
|
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
354
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:27:00 -
[871] - Quote
xttz wrote:Lallante wrote:
Theres an infinite number of other scenarios. This will be interesting!
Scenario ANull-sec alliances run around dropping cheap siphons on any r64 and r32 moons they don't control. They're rich enough to spam scores of cheap siphons per moon and not even care too much about collecting the contents. R64 and R32 mineral supply drop off heavily, especially if some specific materials are focused on. R64 supply fluctuates between 25% and 75% of the current levels. There are huge market shifts as T2 materials adjust to the reduced supply, resulting in doubled Tech 2 prices within a few days. Eventually speculators run low on r64 material reserves and T2 prices continue to rise sharply after several months. GoonSwarm engages in a series of market manipulation moves alongside Burn Jita-style events to ensure further disruption of the market. We'll probably even spam these on low-sec reaction farms solely to grief the owners. The net result is very expensive T2 ships and mods, GoonSwarm gets richer, and a bunch of pubbies quit running reactions and whine to the forums about grrrrgoooons ruining the game. Thus creating the next generation of posters who won't believe our warnings over CCP's next broken feature. Scenario BJust kidding, there are no other scenarios. Scenario B your scare tactics turn out to be scare tactics and price changes are negligible, as they were in the last ice interdiction (the highest prices achieved were during speculation, price changes during the event were merely 200-300 isk/unit How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
677
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:28:00 -
[872] - Quote
Johny Tyler wrote:How are you planning to collect from these things? What ship has a 1200 m/3 cargo hold that you want to put within 50km of a POS?
I admit my experience with POS is mostly limited to null-sec and WH pos, and never moon mining...
Also, while I did read all the CCP posts in the thread, I just skimmed most of pages 20 - 40ish so I don't know for sure if this has been brought up...
I really like the idea in general. I hope this will spark more fighting.
Maybe I deserved to be flamed for not knowing enough about POS mechanics, but my impression is that actually collecting the materials out of these devices will be difficult at best for someone who is not the POS owner. I imagine this as just one more chore for the POS owner to go around collect all the siphoned materials then man a gun and blow them up. Unless you can collect from them then the time, irritation, and waste are the only things you achieve.
You will need a blockade runner and you'll have to line it up so you can do a moving, aligned drive-by run to to scoop the contents. It's doable, technically... |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:28:00 -
[873] - Quote
xttz wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:xttz wrote:I
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
I don't agree. Waste should (and logically do) occur during the syphon action and not after. With your idea, if you just destroy the syphon without empty it before, there is no waste at all since all the content is returned in the silo with no others drawback. +1 for the API idea though, it's seem to be the most logical way to do it. The aim is to counteract the 'fire and forget' griefing aspect of this feature. Otherwise siphons would just be thrown around purely to cause waste, with no intention for the owner to ever come back. A fair system must involve both sides making a continuous effort to inflict damage on the other, otherwise it is unbalanced. If people are so keen for starbase owners to make a constant effort to defend their holdings, why shouldn't attackers have to put in the same effort to hurt them? This implementation means agressors can inflict loss, but they have to stick around for more than 20 seconds to do it.
The question is, what is the advantage for an organisation to spends billions ISK just to reduce the production of another entity?
If someone WANT to do that, I don't see why it's bad. EVE being a sandbox, it's cool to have this kind of feature. It add a whole strategic dimension to war, one that i'm sure CFC will be able to use.
|
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
354
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:34:00 -
[874] - Quote
Querns wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:mynnna wrote:
The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.
The waste factor isn't a punishing system, but an incentive to react faster, cause you know that even if you have the number superiority and will win that ~~~honourable space combat~~~ there will be a loss that depend on your reaction time. Taking that into acocunt, the tool become a great thing to provoke fight. So you aren't punished for not monitoring your POS, but you are actually punished for not taking action against the thieves. Which goes in total adequation with what EVE is all about. A 10m ISK, 100k EHP module is not worth fighting over for either party If the siphonhaver logs on and finds his sh it destroyed, welp, time to anchor another one from the 500 he has kicking around inside his blockade runner If the poshaver logs on and finds his sh it burgled, welp, time to assume control of the pos guns and shoot a single laser at the siphon until it goes away The very nature of the interactions dissuades any actual interaction between siphonhaver and poshaver because erecting the siphon, scooping from the siphon, and destroying the siphon can all be done in complete safety This is why things that actually matter like SBUs and POSes themselves and sov structures have things like timers and gobs of EHP If a guy is carrying around 500 of these siphons, at about 10m a piece, he's an idiot with 5b of siphons in his cargo and we all get a good laugh.
People wont be stupid enough to carry 500 of these things at a time, totaling at 5b--what am i saying, ofc someone will, but they'll be retarrded and die and we all laugh How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Derka McDerk
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:35:00 -
[875] - Quote
Ill just pop back here.
END T2 NULL MONOPOLY. POWER TO THE PEOPLE. HIGHSEC MOONGOO! |
Von Keigai
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:36:00 -
[876] - Quote
Jack Haydn wrote:The information which is available through such an API is and should be a 1:1 reflection of the in-game state. Now you want to intentionally deliver wrong data, to work around the horrible design decisions you made around a new feature. That completely breaks the spirit of an API. If you want an API in your game, do it right and deliver accurate data. Otherwise just scrap it - either the API or the feature.
Hear hear. Yeah, I mean you, CCP.
Delaying information is fine. Not reporting information is fine. Lying is not fine.
That you want to lie is (or at least should be) a red flag about the way siphons work. vonkeigai.blogspot.com |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:37:00 -
[877] - Quote
People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.
BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much
I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair. |
A Research Alt
Perkone Caldari State
143
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:37:00 -
[878] - Quote
Derka McDerk wrote:Ill just pop back here.
END T2 NULL MONOPOLY. POWER TO THE PEOPLE. HIGHSEC MOONGOO!
I'd be all for this if we could openly shoot anyone in highsec without repercussions. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:39:00 -
[879] - Quote
Von Keigai wrote:Jack Haydn wrote:The information which is available through such an API is and should be a 1:1 reflection of the in-game state. Now you want to intentionally deliver wrong data, to work around the horrible design decisions you made around a new feature. That completely breaks the spirit of an API. If you want an API in your game, do it right and deliver accurate data. Otherwise just scrap it - either the API or the feature. Hear hear. Yeah, I mean you, CCP. Delaying information is fine. Not reporting information is fine. Lying is not fine. That you want to lie is (or at least should be) a red flag about the way siphons work.
Well, they are not reporting you some information. The fact the you have a sink hole in your pos.
A Research Alt wrote:Derka McDerk wrote:Ill just pop back here.
END T2 NULL MONOPOLY. POWER TO THE PEOPLE. HIGHSEC MOONGOO! I'd be all for this if we could openly shoot anyone in highsec without repercussions.
It amazes me how can you asking to ruin the day of other players but at the same time cry like babies when somebody hurts you. |
Johny Tyler
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:40:00 -
[880] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Johny Tyler wrote:How are you planning to collect from these things? What ship has a 1200 m/3 cargo hold that you want to put within 50km of a POS?
I admit my experience with POS is mostly limited to null-sec and WH pos, and never moon mining...
Also, while I did read all the CCP posts in the thread, I just skimmed most of pages 20 - 40ish so I don't know for sure if this has been brought up...
I really like the idea in general. I hope this will spark more fighting.
Maybe I deserved to be flamed for not knowing enough about POS mechanics, but my impression is that actually collecting the materials out of these devices will be difficult at best for someone who is not the POS owner. I imagine this as just one more chore for the POS owner to go around collect all the siphoned materials then man a gun and blow them up. Unless you can collect from them then the time, irritation, and waste are the only things you achieve. You will need a blockade runner and you'll have to line it up so you can do a moving, aligned drive-by run to to scoop the contents. It's doable, technically...
Ya so what is the cost of a blockade runner vs the cost of the stuff you are stealing? Are you going to roam a blockade runner around just to do this?
After thinking about this a bit. I bet the most common instances of theft will be someone using an alt to place the siphons on a blue tower then collecting from the tower with the blue main. They could leave anchored containers at a safe to hold the loot so corp leaders couldn't check their hangers for it, if living in null. |
|
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:42:00 -
[881] - Quote
Considering you only need 1200 m3 of space, nano-indys could be a solution |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1223
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:43:00 -
[882] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.
BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much
I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair.
Would you want to be the one guy? You know, the one guy logging in and using his time NOT having fun like everyone else?
Fire and forget is a bad mechanic. Forcing timezone wide babysitting is a bad mechanic.
This has both. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:43:00 -
[883] - Quote
Johny Tyler wrote:How are you planning to collect from these things? What ship has a 1200 m/3 cargo hold that you want to put within 50km of a POS?
A Probe (T1 exploration frig) can get a 1200m3 cargo hold. With the warp speed mechanics, it's the perfect ship for zipping around low-sec emptying these things. Especially since you can just dock up after each one and dump the goo to your hauler-alt in his blockade runner.
|
Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
55
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:45:00 -
[884] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.
BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much
I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair. You think 100mil is a lot? You think 5 bil is a lot?
It's not just "1 guy," it's 1 guy watching EACH pos EVERY HOUR of the day. Who do you think faces more problems with that though? Hint: It's not the people with insane timezone coverage and a generous amount of players and alts.
Look at who are telling you that these are OP. People that grief as a primary play style. This is not crying about them, this is warning beforehand just how ******* horribly we will be able to use these things. From the people that abuse literally everything that won't get you banned (and even things that will). The FW system that everyone warned could be manipulated, and then subsequently was to an obscene amount? Yeah those same *******.
Warning you beforehand. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
677
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:48:00 -
[885] - Quote
Basically syphons are stupid as hell. If CCP want to provide ways for smaller groups to disrupt the income / operations of larger groups, how about focusing on how income-related activities work in the first place rather than developing un-detectable, un-manned income vaporizers. Guess what: even if I'm in the griefer's shoes here (and I will be, since all I've done in EVE for the last five years is live in other people's space being a space eh-hole) siphons are still dull as hell. Oh joy-- I'll have all the excitement of pushing a structure out of my hold and logging out. That sounds just like life in the Resistance, and is totally something I'd pay $14/mo to do...
If you want to truly empower disruption tactics, how about doing something like changing some of the game mechanics that currently prevent non-consensual PvP in this game, or re-balancing nullsec sov and imcome mechanics themselves to that there is actually player activity there to be disrupted. Christ, you guys have become so unimaginative it's not even funny. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
677
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:50:00 -
[886] - Quote
Kat Ayclism wrote: You think 100mil is a lot? You think 5 bil is a lot?
It's not just "1 guy," it's 1 guy watching EACH pos EVERY HOUR of the day. Who do you think faces more problems with that though? Hint: It's not the people with insane timezone coverage and a generous amount of players and alts.
Look at who are telling you that these are OP. People that grief as a primary play style. This is not crying about them, this is warning beforehand just how ******* horribly we will be able to use these things. From the people that abuse literally everything that won't get you banned (and even things that will). The FW system that everyone warned could be manipulated, and then subsequently was to an obscene amount? Yeah those same people.
Warning you beforehand.
They're the same people who think Vegas is a place they're going to go to win lots of money. You can't help them think. |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:51:00 -
[887] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:
BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much
I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair.
So, wait, which is it? Is this easier for the little guy because he only has one tower to watch, or is it easier for the massive coalitions because we can marshal more manpower and distribute work over a wider base?
Because, you know, you've now argued for both of those. |
Falkor1984
The Love Dragons
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:52:00 -
[888] - Quote
Yet another ill thought trough idea by CCP. Its beginning to look a lot like the time before the summer of rage when CCP had all these crazy things in mind that sounded like a good idea at the time as well.
This is an almost zero risk action for the leech and a pain in the butt for pos owners. A pos owner now has to not only go out to check posses every day, but he also needs to shoot structures. Maybe you guys at CCP dont notice, but shooting structures is not what people like. With the ease a syphon is placed every tower will require structure shooting every day. I do not understand how the hell people come up with these crazy ideas.
Pos management is boring enough already, now you add grind to it. Also freighters are gonna be even slower on short distances which makes filling posses even slower.
So al in all good game in given players with no skills cookies while making it the game boring for the people that actually put the effort in. Dumbing down is the name of the game yet again. Lets change the name to DumbedDown Online.
|
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
762
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:53:00 -
[889] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Querns wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:mynnna wrote:
The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.
The waste factor isn't a punishing system, but an incentive to react faster, cause you know that even if you have the number superiority and will win that ~~~honourable space combat~~~ there will be a loss that depend on your reaction time. Taking that into acocunt, the tool become a great thing to provoke fight. So you aren't punished for not monitoring your POS, but you are actually punished for not taking action against the thieves. Which goes in total adequation with what EVE is all about. A 10m ISK, 100k EHP module is not worth fighting over for either party If the siphonhaver logs on and finds his sh it destroyed, welp, time to anchor another one from the 500 he has kicking around inside his blockade runner If the poshaver logs on and finds his sh it burgled, welp, time to assume control of the pos guns and shoot a single laser at the siphon until it goes away The very nature of the interactions dissuades any actual interaction between siphonhaver and poshaver because erecting the siphon, scooping from the siphon, and destroying the siphon can all be done in complete safety This is why things that actually matter like SBUs and POSes themselves and sov structures have things like timers and gobs of EHP If a guy is carrying around 500 of these siphons, at about 10m a piece, he's an idiot with 5b of siphons in his cargo and we all get a good laugh. People wont be stupid enough to carry 500 of these things at a time, totaling at 5b--what am i saying, ofc someone will, but they'll be retarrded and die and we all laugh
I know I'm laughing at this post!
You think people never fly around with expensive things. And 5b? Not much, for a lot of people.
|
Southern Kros
LOW SEC MINING
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:07:00 -
[890] - Quote
I have no love for Goons nor any of the major alliances. As a solo / small corporation player they burn Jita, gank you and other wise **** you off. They don't care so why should I.
I do however love this idea and I plan to make lots of these wee beasties. I don't really care if they get blown up after 10 mins or 24hrs. I am doing it for ***** and giggles pure and simple.
If I make any ISK I will be delighted but just getting back at some of those tossers in Alliances, especially goons will make my day just that little sweeter.
Goons, your moon goo is all mine.
|
|
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
763
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:13:00 -
[891] - Quote
Southern Kros wrote:I have no love for Goons nor any of the major alliances. As a solo / small corporation player they burn Jita, gank you and other wise **** you off. They don't care so why should I.
I do however love this idea and I plan to make lots of these wee beasties. I don't really care if they get blown up after 10 mins or 24hrs. I am doing it for ***** and giggles pure and simple.
If I make any ISK I will be delighted but just getting back at some of those tossers in Alliances, especially goons will make my day just that little sweeter.
Goons, your moon goo is all mine.
Sexy.
Oh, I thought you said man goo.
|
Falkor1984
The Love Dragons
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:15:00 -
[892] - Quote
Southern Kros wrote:I have no love for Goons nor any of the major alliances. As a solo / small corporation player they burn Jita, gank you and other wise **** you off. They don't care so why should I.
I do however love this idea and I plan to make lots of these wee beasties. I don't really care if they get blown up after 10 mins or 24hrs. I am doing it for ***** and giggles pure and simple.
If I make any ISK I will be delighted but just getting back at some of those tossers in Alliances, especially goons will make my day just that little sweeter.
Goons, your moon goo is all mine.
It seems you dont like Goons, which is something one might agree to. But this thing is not gonna hurt Goons or their friends: they are able to provide 24/7 checks on their towers. The problem lies with the posses of the smaller entities: they cannot provide round the clock coverage and will be subject to siphoning by multiple siphons for extended periods. So basically if you support this idea, you are actually supporting Goons and other bigass powerblocks. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:16:00 -
[893] - Quote
Kat Ayclism wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.
BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much
I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair. You think 100mil is a lot? You think 5 bil is a lot? It's not just "1 guy," it's 1 guy watching EACH pos EVERY HOUR of the day. Who do you think faces more problems with that though? Hint: It's not the people with insane timezone coverage and a generous amount of players and alts. Look at who are telling you that these are OP. People that grief as a primary play style. This is not crying about them, this is warning beforehand just how ******* horribly we will be able to use these things. From the people that abuse literally everything that won't get you banned (and even things that will). The FW system that everyone warned could be manipulated, and then subsequently was to an obscene amount? Yeah those same people. Warning you beforehand.
Then bring the shitstorm over our heads, I dare you. CCP said they are going to observe the effect they have in the game, so do your worse.
On the other hand, people are going to enjoy a lot having the chance to mess with the big guys in the hood (me included) If the price is reasonable, I would do it even losing money, just for giggles and fun. |
TimNeilson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:17:00 -
[894] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Von Keigai wrote:Jack Haydn wrote:The information which is available through such an API is and should be a 1:1 reflection of the in-game state. Now you want to intentionally deliver wrong data, to work around the horrible design decisions you made around a new feature. That completely breaks the spirit of an API. If you want an API in your game, do it right and deliver accurate data. Otherwise just scrap it - either the API or the feature. Hear hear. Yeah, I mean you, CCP. Delaying information is fine. Not reporting information is fine. Lying is not fine. That you want to lie is (or at least should be) a red flag about the way siphons work. Well, they are not reporting you some information. The fact the you have a sink hole in your pos.
Er, no, it would be actively reporting false information, by saying "yeah boss, everything's fine!" when what's actually going on is "oh hey someone's stealing all my ****." There's nowhere else in the game where this would be considered acceptable behavior from the api, so I'm not sure why people think it's okay here. If this were something to do with the market order, character sheet, or wallet data people would be up in arms about it, but apparently because this only affects people that run poses it's apparently okay to just kick them in the balls, as if running a pos wasn't a big enough pain already. I'm also honestly amazed that more people aren't freaking out about this, as if you can't trust the data you're getting from the api you might as well not even have the api in the first place, because it means you still need to be logged in to check on things and manually update all the **** you would have just done an api pull for. |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:18:00 -
[895] - Quote
Falkor1984 wrote:It seems you dont like Goons, which is something one might agree to . But this thing is not gonna hurt Goons or their friends: they are able to provide 24/7 checks on their towers. The problem lies with the posses of the smaller entities: they cannot provide round the clock coverage and will be subject to siphoning by multiple siphons for extended periods. So basically if you support this idea, you are actually supporting Goons and other bigass powerblocks.
It's also going to drive up the prices - especially short-term speculation when these things first hit.
This is gonna make bank for the CFC. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
90
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:18:00 -
[896] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:If a guy is carrying around 500 of these siphons, at about 10m a piece, he's an idiot with 5b of siphons in his cargo and we all get a good laugh.
People wont be stupid enough to carry 500 of these things at a time, totaling at 5b--what am i saying, ofc someone will, but they'll be retarrded and die and we all laugh Uh, it's a blockade runner, they are nearly uncatchable
also 5b is a paltry sum This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:19:00 -
[897] - Quote
TimNeilson wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:Von Keigai wrote:Jack Haydn wrote:The information which is available through such an API is and should be a 1:1 reflection of the in-game state. Now you want to intentionally deliver wrong data, to work around the horrible design decisions you made around a new feature. That completely breaks the spirit of an API. If you want an API in your game, do it right and deliver accurate data. Otherwise just scrap it - either the API or the feature. Hear hear. Yeah, I mean you, CCP. Delaying information is fine. Not reporting information is fine. Lying is not fine. That you want to lie is (or at least should be) a red flag about the way siphons work. Well, they are not reporting you some information. The fact the you have a sink hole in your pos. Er, no, it would be actively reporting false information, by saying "yeah boss, everything's fine!" when what's actually going on is "oh hey someone's stealing all my ****." There's nowhere else in the game where this would be considered acceptable behavior from the api, so I'm not sure why people think it's okay here. If this were something to do with the market order, character sheet, or wallet data people would be up in arms about it, but apparently because this only affects people that run poses it's apparently okay to just kick them in the balls, as if running a pos wasn't a big enough pain already. I'm also honestly amazed that more people aren't freaking out about this, as if you can't trust the data you're getting from the api you might as well not even have the api in the first place, because it means you still need to be logged in to check on things and manually update all the **** you would have just done an api pull for.
Better having an API that sometimes lies to you and makes you watch your business than not having an API at all. With an API, the whole syphon concept would be useless. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4858
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:21:00 -
[898] - Quote
Kat Ayclism wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.
BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much
I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair. You think 100mil is a lot? You think 5 bil is a lot? It's not just "1 guy," it's 1 guy watching EACH pos EVERY HOUR of the day. Who do you think faces more problems with that though? Hint: It's not the people with insane timezone coverage and a generous amount of players and alts. Look at who are telling you that these are OP. People that grief as a primary play style. This is not crying about them, this is warning beforehand just how ******* horribly we will be able to use these things. From the people that abuse literally everything that won't get you banned (and even things that will). The FW system that everyone warned could be manipulated, and then subsequently was to an obscene amount? Yeah those same people. Warning you beforehand. Oh?
I see the goons have gotten into his head. Don't let them spin you around guys, this is a great thing and these posts are goon tears, not warnings. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Zircon Dasher
290
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:22:00 -
[899] - Quote
It certainly is a good thing that nobody has alts that sit inside the shields all 23/7....
And even if that were false, it definitely is a good thing that there is nothing like a live stream capability available that said alts could broadcast....
And even if THAT were false, it surely is ok because there is no way for a separate automated system to send out a RL tweet/email if it 'reads' something from the broadcast.......
And even if ALL that were false, it is surely ok because nobody in EVE bends rules even if they can't be caught......
I sure am glad that EVE players are so honor driven. Otherwise the "no alert when siphoning occurs" feature could be bypassed by any player/group with a craptop and an alt. Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
Von Keigai
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:22:00 -
[900] - Quote
Here is how I would like to see siphons work. The goal is to synchronize knowledge of loot, to promote fights.
First, the connection to the player who deploys the structure should be optional. There should be two launch options: "launch unowned", and "launch for me". There is only one difference in behavior: notification. "Launch unowned" would allow people to sneakily awox their own blues without requiring an alt. Mwahaha.
Stealing is no longer per tick. And it is not small amounts each hour. Instead the siphon activates and steals on average once per day. When this time comes is random. It is not related to the tick. This means there is on average no timezone advantage either to the thief or the owner. Neither can know when a theft can be pulled off.
When the siphon activates, it should steal a day's worth of stuff. That is, a chunk 24x as large as now. Then it resets itself, with a random amount of time from 4 to 44 hours. Notification of the theft is always sent to the POS owner. It is sent to the siphon launcher if he "launched for me", but not otherwise. vonkeigai.blogspot.com |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4858
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:22:00 -
[901] - Quote
Querns wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:If a guy is carrying around 500 of these siphons, at about 10m a piece, he's an idiot with 5b of siphons in his cargo and we all get a good laugh.
People wont be stupid enough to carry 500 of these things at a time, totaling at 5b--what am i saying, ofc someone will, but they'll be retarrded and die and we all laugh Uh, it's a blockade runner, they are nearly uncatchable also 5b is a paltry sum Besides you'll only catch something like a covops with a covert cyno anyway.
Who has the ability to covert bridge tons of 20m3 siphons about? Oh I don't know, who was covert bridging tons of SBUs about
These are of course goon tears There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Southern Kros
LOW SEC MINING
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:23:00 -
[902] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Southern Kros wrote:I have no love for Goons nor any of the major alliances. As a solo / small corporation player they burn Jita, gank you and other wise **** you off. They don't care so why should I.
I do however love this idea and I plan to make lots of these wee beasties. I don't really care if they get blown up after 10 mins or 24hrs. I am doing it for ***** and giggles pure and simple.
If I make any ISK I will be delighted but just getting back at some of those tossers in Alliances, especially goons will make my day just that little sweeter.
Goons, your moon goo is all mine.
Sexy. Oh, I thought you said man goo.
You mistake me for a goon and their love of Man Goo. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
677
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:23:00 -
[903] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not? Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear.
This is an ~*expletives deleted*~ idea, although figuring out ways to make the API display the wrong information may come in handy a month or two down the road when you'll need to find a way of making the game report that I've got several hundred billion in new isk and assets as a way of tricking me to log in to your dying game. |
Falkor1984
The Love Dragons
18
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:23:00 -
[904] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:the whole syphon concept would be useless.
+1 to this!
|
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
354
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:24:00 -
[905] - Quote
Kat Ayclism wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:CCP Legion wrote:Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required. As is, these stand to completely shut down T2 production. They are cheap, laughably cheap, and the fact that they stack can shut down a pos completely. Combined with no notification? It's just too much. Tone them down somewhat. ...(snip)... What I am, on the other hand, is rubbing my hands with glee at the sheer amount of grief I could inflict with these as is. Given timezone shenanigans, I can shut down system after system with myself and a few buddies/alts, even if you cap me at 5 per character. Remember, folks. What one person can do, a thousand can do a thousand times better. Exactly this. Although I do have moons that I manage, you can bet your ass that I am also going to be abusing the hell out of these if they're implemented as is. You think some small group with less income can do some damage with these? Wait til you ******* see what we can do.
Makes sense. After all, the job of terrifying-supercap-alliance-that-drops-on-everything-for-good-fights has been taken over by Black Legion, so what else are you to do with your isk? How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:25:00 -
[906] - Quote
TimNeilson wrote:I'm also honestly amazed that more people aren't freaking out about this, as if you can't trust the data you're getting from the api you might as well not even have the api in the first place
Personally, I'd have thought 'hey, let's make the API lie to you' being a bad idea would be amazingly self-evident, given CCP just dealt with another little shi*tstorm over transparency and the information affecting the in-game value of resources being untrustworthy.
If you want to make the API give incorrect projections of future production, awesome. Having it say 'Boss, we should have 50,000 units of X in 24 days' is a plus. Having it say that and having those projections wrong because your POS can't tell it's being siphoned is actually pretty freaking cool. If anything, that would let you go 'hey, we were projected to have X, why do we have 60% of X?' and actually be a damned handy little API move that you'd probably see people be happy about.
But telling the players 'this is a trustworthy resource for data on what you already have. We are making it untrustworthy' is never, never cool.
|
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
354
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:26:00 -
[907] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.
Yeah, that will be tons of fun. Everyone fleet up for the "go warp to all the moons in our region to look for anchorable structures" fleet! Won't that be fun? I'm gonna go sub another six accounts right now because this just sounds so interesting and ~*emergent*~... There is only one good thing about this terrible expansion and it's the warp speed changes... literally the only good thing that's happened to EVE online in the last two years. tl;dr: Get your head examined, friend.
D-scan. And if you don't have your people in your region occupying your space, what is the point in you having your space when someone else could obviously make better use of it?
The problem with nullsec is the sprawling empires of uninhabited space, and this is a solution to that.
Ganthrithor wrote:Johny Tyler wrote:How are you planning to collect from these things? What ship has a 1200 m/3 cargo hold that you want to put within 50km of a POS?
I admit my experience with POS is mostly limited to null-sec and WH pos, and never moon mining...
Also, while I did read all the CCP posts in the thread, I just skimmed most of pages 20 - 40ish so I don't know for sure if this has been brought up...
I really like the idea in general. I hope this will spark more fighting.
Maybe I deserved to be flamed for not knowing enough about POS mechanics, but my impression is that actually collecting the materials out of these devices will be difficult at best for someone who is not the POS owner. I imagine this as just one more chore for the POS owner to go around collect all the siphoned materials then man a gun and blow them up. Unless you can collect from them then the time, irritation, and waste are the only things you achieve. You will need a blockade runner and you'll have to line it up so you can do a moving, aligned drive-by run to to scoop the contents. It's doable, technically...
POSs are so slow to lock things, and even slower to point things, that even my cargo fit prowler would easily be able to ninja the moon goo and delicious byproduct tears before the POS manages to lock me. If you have trouble looting your siphons, you're bad at EVE. So basicly a Goon How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
763
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:27:00 -
[908] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Kat Ayclism wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.
BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much
I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair. You think 100mil is a lot? You think 5 bil is a lot? It's not just "1 guy," it's 1 guy watching EACH pos EVERY HOUR of the day. Who do you think faces more problems with that though? Hint: It's not the people with insane timezone coverage and a generous amount of players and alts. Look at who are telling you that these are OP. People that grief as a primary play style. This is not crying about them, this is warning beforehand just how ******* horribly we will be able to use these things. From the people that abuse literally everything that won't get you banned (and even things that will). The FW system that everyone warned could be manipulated, and then subsequently was to an obscene amount? Yeah those same people. Warning you beforehand. Then bring the shitstorm over our heads, I dare you. CCP said they are going to observe the effect they have in the game, so do your worse. On the other hand, people are going to enjoy a lot having the chance to mess with the big guys in the hood (me included) If the price is reasonable, I would do it even losing money, just for giggles and fun.
See, here's the thing you don't understand. For devs in general, and CCP devs in particular, making shiny new toys is more fun than fixing old broken crap, and today's shiny new toys are what become tomorrow's old broken crap. Only these look like shiny new broken crap, and CCP has a terrible track record for fixing broke-ass new "features" later. Weaselior posted a pretty good list toward the beginning of this thread.
|
Falkor1984
The Love Dragons
18
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:27:00 -
[909] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:But telling the players 'this is a trustworthy resource for data on what you already have. We are making it untrustworthy' is never, never cool.
It is however in line with CCP's tendecy to solve one problem by creating another
But seriously, you are 100% right. Why have an API that provides data if the data is known to be inaccurate on purpose. |
Southern Kros
LOW SEC MINING
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:28:00 -
[910] - Quote
Falkor1984 wrote:Southern Kros wrote:I have no love for Goons nor any of the major alliances. As a solo / small corporation player they burn Jita, gank you and other wise **** you off. They don't care so why should I.
I do however love this idea and I plan to make lots of these wee beasties. I don't really care if they get blown up after 10 mins or 24hrs. I am doing it for ***** and giggles pure and simple.
If I make any ISK I will be delighted but just getting back at some of those tossers in Alliances, especially goons will make my day just that little sweeter.
Goons, your moon goo is all mine.
It seems you dont like Goons, which is something one might agree to . But this thing is not gonna hurt Goons or their friends: they are able to provide 24/7 checks on their towers. The problem lies with the posses of the smaller entities: they cannot provide round the clock coverage and will be subject to siphoning by multiple siphons for extended periods. So basically if you support this idea, you are actually supporting Goons and other bigass powerblocks.
You may indeed be correct. I am sure everyone will be shitting on each other and if the goons and power blocks have to spend resources defending their usually afk towers then that means there will be less of them to gank, burn jita and otherwise **** off other players.
The power blocks will be able to scale this a 1000 times more than me and a few mates. |
|
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:30:00 -
[911] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not? Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear. This is an ~*expletives deleted*~ idea, although figuring out ways to make the API display the wrong information may come in handy a month or two down the road when you'll need to find a way of making the API report that I've got several hundred billion in new isk and assets as a way of tricking me to log in to your dying game.
Did i hear a Goon threatening to leave the game? Did I? |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
354
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:32:00 -
[912] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.
BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much
I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair. Would you want to be the one guy? You know, the one guy logging in and using his time NOT having fun like everyone else? Fire and forget is a bad mechanic. Forcing timezone wide babysitting is a bad mechanic. This has both.
I agree, fire and forget is bad. So remove moon mining as a POS activity, then we can scrap siphons.
Querns wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:If a guy is carrying around 500 of these siphons, at about 10m a piece, he's an idiot with 5b of siphons in his cargo and we all get a good laugh.
People wont be stupid enough to carry 500 of these things at a time, totaling at 5b--what am i saying, ofc someone will, but they'll be retarrded and die and we all laugh Uh, it's a blockade runner, they are nearly uncatchable also 5b is a paltry sum
Perhaps to the players who make trillions of dollars a month harvesting moon goo in a fashion that leaves them vulnerable to this mechanic... How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
68
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:33:00 -
[913] - Quote
Falkor1984 wrote:But seriously, you are 100% right. Why have an API that provides data if the data is known to be inaccurate on purpose.
::CCP::
In other news, I just got my boxed set. Gonna give Danger Game a try tonight. If I find any horribly broken rules that require you to keep playing the game 23.5/7 just to keep from losing, I'll let folks know.
(Also: the 'do not just throw electronics in the trash' notice w/the rifter is in like... 29 different languages. I am halfway convinced my nerd friends are going to think that's the coolest thing in the box.) |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4858
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:33:00 -
[914] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:Kat Ayclism wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.
BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much
I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair. You think 100mil is a lot? You think 5 bil is a lot? It's not just "1 guy," it's 1 guy watching EACH pos EVERY HOUR of the day. Who do you think faces more problems with that though? Hint: It's not the people with insane timezone coverage and a generous amount of players and alts. Look at who are telling you that these are OP. People that grief as a primary play style. This is not crying about them, this is warning beforehand just how ******* horribly we will be able to use these things. From the people that abuse literally everything that won't get you banned (and even things that will). The FW system that everyone warned could be manipulated, and then subsequently was to an obscene amount? Yeah those same people. Warning you beforehand. Then bring the shitstorm over our heads, I dare you. CCP said they are going to observe the effect they have in the game, so do your worse. On the other hand, people are going to enjoy a lot having the chance to mess with the big guys in the hood (me included) If the price is reasonable, I would do it even losing money, just for giggles and fun. See, here's the thing you don't understand. For devs in general, and CCP devs in particular, making shiny new toys is more fun than fixing old broken crap, and today's shiny new toys are what become tomorrow's old broken crap. Only these look like shiny new broken crap, and CCP has a terrible track record for fixing broke-ass new "features" later. Weaselior posted a pretty good list toward the beginning of this thread. To quote a wise person, the Bane of VFK:
Quote:Harry Forever: I want you to feel it There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
68
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:34:00 -
[915] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Did i hear a Goon threatening to leave the game? Did I?
Goons quite EVE all the time, man...
... and then resub for the next sov war. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4858
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:38:00 -
[916] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:Did i hear a Goon threatening to leave the game? Did I? Goons quite EVE all the time, man... ... and then resub for the next sov war. Yeah. Actually our POS people leave the game the most... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
679
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:39:00 -
[917] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.
Yeah, that will be tons of fun. Everyone fleet up for the "go warp to all the moons in our region to look for anchorable structures" fleet! Won't that be fun? I'm gonna go sub another six accounts right now because this just sounds so interesting and ~*emergent*~... There is only one good thing about this terrible expansion and it's the warp speed changes... literally the only good thing that's happened to EVE online in the last two years. tl;dr: Get your head examined, friend. D-scan. And if you don't have your people in your region occupying your space, what is the point in you having your space when someone else could obviously make better use of it? The problem with nullsec is the sprawling empires of uninhabited space, and this is a solution to that.
Except that nobody's going to give up their space because you evaporated 12% of their moongoo and maybe stole a little more for yourself. I'll repeat that, because I don't think you get it: nobody is going roll over and give away their space to some hypothetical small, up-and-coming player group. It's not going to happen. All siphons are going to do is irritate people and drive up the price of moon goo. They aren't going to provide any fun gameplay for anyone (the "griefer" gets all the enjoyment of dropping something out of their cargo hold, while the successful "defender" gets all the excitement of finding an abandoned structure and then blowing it up unopposed) and they're not going to affect the sov landscape, so they're essentially pointless detractors from EVE Online: A Decaying Spaceship Game.
Flying around through space full of blues to look for abandoned structures is boring, whether it's using probes, d-scan, or the Mk 1 Eyeball. This "feature" is a stupid idea and a waste of development time / our money.
|
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:41:00 -
[918] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:Did i hear a Goon threatening to leave the game? Did I? Goons quite EVE all the time, man... ... and then resub for the next sov war.
It's not their depart, but the threatening and the sweet tears what matters |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1225
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:41:00 -
[919] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.
BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much
I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair. Would you want to be the one guy? You know, the one guy logging in and using his time NOT having fun like everyone else? Fire and forget is a bad mechanic. Forcing timezone wide babysitting is a bad mechanic. This has both. I agree, fire and forget is bad. So remove moon mining as a POS activity, then we can scrap siphons.
The existence of one bad mechanic does not justify adding two more on top of it.
We also know that, despite their constant attempts to change it, they are pretty much stuck with POS'es as they exist already. The guys who coded them left CCP a long time ago, and did not leave notes. I believe that there's a blue post to that effect floating around somewhere. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
69
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:42:00 -
[920] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:or the Mk 1 Eyeball
Oh my god...
... NOW WE KNOW WHAT THE MONACLE IS FOR! I bet it'll make these things show up on the in-space system scanner like anomalies do! |
|
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:43:00 -
[921] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.
Yeah, that will be tons of fun. Everyone fleet up for the "go warp to all the moons in our region to look for anchorable structures" fleet! Won't that be fun? I'm gonna go sub another six accounts right now because this just sounds so interesting and ~*emergent*~... There is only one good thing about this terrible expansion and it's the warp speed changes... literally the only good thing that's happened to EVE online in the last two years. tl;dr: Get your head examined, friend. D-scan. And if you don't have your people in your region occupying your space, what is the point in you having your space when someone else could obviously make better use of it? The problem with nullsec is the sprawling empires of uninhabited space, and this is a solution to that. Except that nobody's going to give up their space because you evaporated 12% of their moongoo and maybe stole a little more for yourself. I'll repeat that, because I don't think you get it: nobody is going roll over and give away their space to some hypothetical small, up-and-coming player group. It's not going to happen. All siphons are going to do is irritate people and drive up the price of moon goo. They aren't going to provide any fun gameplay for anyone (the "griefer" gets all the enjoyment of dropping something out of their cargo hold, while the successful "defender" gets all the excitement of finding an abandoned structure and then blowing it up unopposed) and they're not going to affect the sov landscape, so they're essentially pointless detractors from EVE Online: A Decaying Spaceship Game. Flying around through space full of blues to look for abandoned structures is boring, whether it's using probes, d-scan, or the Mk 1 Eyeball. This "feature" is a stupid idea and a waste of development time / our money.
Well, you obviously don't understand the griefer. Knowing you are inflicting damage to somebody you couldn't harm any other way is SWEET |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
679
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:45:00 -
[922] - Quote
Oh look, I missed another gem of an edit:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Johny Tyler wrote:How are you planning to collect from these things? What ship has a 1200 m/3 cargo hold that you want to put within 50km of a POS?
I admit my experience with POS is mostly limited to null-sec and WH pos, and never moon mining...
Also, while I did read all the CCP posts in the thread, I just skimmed most of pages 20 - 40ish so I don't know for sure if this has been brought up...
I really like the idea in general. I hope this will spark more fighting.
Maybe I deserved to be flamed for not knowing enough about POS mechanics, but my impression is that actually collecting the materials out of these devices will be difficult at best for someone who is not the POS owner. I imagine this as just one more chore for the POS owner to go around collect all the siphoned materials then man a gun and blow them up. Unless you can collect from them then the time, irritation, and waste are the only things you achieve. You will need a blockade runner and you'll have to line it up so you can do a moving, aligned drive-by run to to scoop the contents. It's doable, technically... POSs are so slow to lock things, and even slower to point things, that even my cargo fit prowler would easily be able to ninja the moon goo and delicious byproduct tears before the POS manages to lock me. If you have trouble looting your siphons, you're bad at EVE. So basicly a Goon
Yeah, thanks for restating exactly what I said in the original post you quoted and then calling me bad. What an effective tactic; I'm sure it will rapidly convince the entire population of EVEO that I'm bad at EVE. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
764
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:45:00 -
[923] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Arrendis wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:Did i hear a Goon threatening to leave the game? Did I? Goons quite EVE all the time, man... ... and then resub for the next sov war. It's not their depart, but the threatening and the sweet tears what matters
*whew* We almost had a full page without a "goon tears" post. Thanks for coming through, brosef. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
679
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:48:00 -
[924] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.
Yeah, that will be tons of fun. Everyone fleet up for the "go warp to all the moons in our region to look for anchorable structures" fleet! Won't that be fun? I'm gonna go sub another six accounts right now because this just sounds so interesting and ~*emergent*~... There is only one good thing about this terrible expansion and it's the warp speed changes... literally the only good thing that's happened to EVE online in the last two years. tl;dr: Get your head examined, friend. D-scan. And if you don't have your people in your region occupying your space, what is the point in you having your space when someone else could obviously make better use of it? The problem with nullsec is the sprawling empires of uninhabited space, and this is a solution to that. Except that nobody's going to give up their space because you evaporated 12% of their moongoo and maybe stole a little more for yourself. I'll repeat that, because I don't think you get it: nobody is going roll over and give away their space to some hypothetical small, up-and-coming player group. It's not going to happen. All siphons are going to do is irritate people and drive up the price of moon goo. They aren't going to provide any fun gameplay for anyone (the "griefer" gets all the enjoyment of dropping something out of their cargo hold, while the successful "defender" gets all the excitement of finding an abandoned structure and then blowing it up unopposed) and they're not going to affect the sov landscape, so they're essentially pointless detractors from EVE Online: A Decaying Spaceship Game. Flying around through space full of blues to look for abandoned structures is boring, whether it's using probes, d-scan, or the Mk 1 Eyeball. This "feature" is a stupid idea and a waste of development time / our money. Well, you obviously don't understand the griefer. Knowing you are inflicting damage to somebody you couldn't harm any other way is SWEET
If the only way you can harm people is by dropping structures and logging out then you probably should never have bothered logging in in the first place. Hope this helps.
Christ, even AFK cloakers have to come back to the keyboard to inflict their damage... |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
764
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:49:00 -
[925] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.
BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much
I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair. Would you want to be the one guy? You know, the one guy logging in and using his time NOT having fun like everyone else? Fire and forget is a bad mechanic. Forcing timezone wide babysitting is a bad mechanic. This has both. I agree, fire and forget is bad. So remove moon mining as a POS activity, then we can scrap siphons. The existence of one bad mechanic does not justify adding two more on top of it. We also know that, despite their constant attempts to change it, they are pretty much stuck with POS'es as they exist already. The guys who coded them left CCP a long time ago, and did not leave notes. I believe that there's a blue post to that effect floating around somewhere.
Who could have imagined that the shop that thinks untrustworthy APIs are a good idea would have a bunch of unmaintainable code? |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
69
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:53:00 -
[926] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote: Yeah, thanks for restating exactly what I said in the original post you quoted and then calling me bad. What an effective tactic; I'm sure it will rapidly convince the entire population of EVEO that I'm bad at EVE.
But isn't that our motto in the first place? "The CFC: We're Bad at EVE." |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
354
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 19:54:00 -
[927] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.
Yeah, that will be tons of fun. Everyone fleet up for the "go warp to all the moons in our region to look for anchorable structures" fleet! Won't that be fun? I'm gonna go sub another six accounts right now because this just sounds so interesting and ~*emergent*~... There is only one good thing about this terrible expansion and it's the warp speed changes... literally the only good thing that's happened to EVE online in the last two years. tl;dr: Get your head examined, friend. D-scan. And if you don't have your people in your region occupying your space, what is the point in you having your space when someone else could obviously make better use of it? The problem with nullsec is the sprawling empires of uninhabited space, and this is a solution to that. Except that nobody's going to give up their space because you evaporated 12% of their moongoo and maybe stole a little more for yourself. I'll repeat that, because I don't think you get it: nobody is going roll over and give away their space to some hypothetical small, up-and-coming player group. It's not going to happen. All siphons are going to do is irritate people and drive up the price of moon goo. They aren't going to provide any fun gameplay for anyone (the "griefer" gets all the enjoyment of dropping something out of their cargo hold, while the successful "defender" gets all the excitement of finding an abandoned structure and then blowing it up unopposed) and they're not going to affect the sov landscape, so they're essentially pointless detractors from EVE Online: A Decaying Spaceship Game. Flying around through space full of blues to look for abandoned structures is boring, whether it's using probes, d-scan, or the Mk 1 Eyeball. This "feature" is a stupid idea and a waste of development time / our money.
If you don't wish to surrender your moon goo profits then you can check for siphons. It's not that hard, you see, there is this wonderful thing called "D-Scan" and "Probes" that help you find them, and a POS mod called a "gun" that will destroy them.
a¦á_a¦á How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
355
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 20:00:00 -
[928] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Oh look, I missed another gem of an edit: M1k3y Koontz wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Johny Tyler wrote:How are you planning to collect from these things? What ship has a 1200 m/3 cargo hold that you want to put within 50km of a POS?
I admit my experience with POS is mostly limited to null-sec and WH pos, and never moon mining...
Also, while I did read all the CCP posts in the thread, I just skimmed most of pages 20 - 40ish so I don't know for sure if this has been brought up...
I really like the idea in general. I hope this will spark more fighting.
Maybe I deserved to be flamed for not knowing enough about POS mechanics, but my impression is that actually collecting the materials out of these devices will be difficult at best for someone who is not the POS owner. I imagine this as just one more chore for the POS owner to go around collect all the siphoned materials then man a gun and blow them up. Unless you can collect from them then the time, irritation, and waste are the only things you achieve. You will need a blockade runner and you'll have to line it up so you can do a moving, aligned drive-by run to to scoop the contents. It's doable, technically... POSs are so slow to lock things, and even slower to point things, that even my cargo fit prowler would easily be able to ninja the moon goo and delicious byproduct tears before the POS manages to lock me. If you have trouble looting your siphons, you're bad at EVE. So basicly a Goon Yeah, thanks for restating exactly what I said in the original post you quoted and then calling me bad. What an effective tactic; I'm sure it will rapidly convince the entire population of EVEO that I'm bad at EVE.
The Goon comment was based on the fact that Goons love to talk about how bad they are at EVE. Not a personal attack of any kind since personal attacks are a sign of weakness and lack of reasonable rebuttals.
The reason for my reply was the fact that you felt the need to add "It's doable, technically..." as if it were somehow hard. Which, quite frankly, it isn't. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
freedamack
Foundation of the Void Traveler
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 20:34:00 -
[929] - Quote
This is in my humble opinion a "double purpose" feature.
First to burn out the logistic staff of larger entities and second to force smaller homogeneous corporations out of the market. While for large entities checking reaction towers becomes no way less cumbersome it is at least in theory possible. "Small independent" corporations or more important corps of the same timezone will have little chance defending their (reaction-)assets for about ~15h+/day. Unless of course they have a high enough number of students or unemployed in their roster that feel happy about this job.
Ah there is also the small part about making people hurt others. Sad things are going to happen. |
Ilaron
SRE Brotherhood
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 21:12:00 -
[930] - Quote
I was really excited about this feature when I first heard about the general idea but the details leave me pretty dissappointed.
One of the things that I've a long wished for is a way to mess with someone else's infrastructure in a way that forced them to respond but was less of a blobby grinding timer fest than actual structure destroying. The idea of pulling a "POS heist" is actually what I had in my mind as an idea.
In my mind every station would have a specific window of time that they were vulnerable to being stolen from. The POS owner could set this up so that it always occured in his or her time zone. If anyone started the heist event (in the mechanic it would be anchoring the siphoning module) a notification would go out to the POS owner and shortly afterward moon goo would begin transferring to the siphon unit. A lot of moon goo. Enough so you would want haulers to start shuttling it to safety continously. Enough that if you ignore it, you're basically running the station for the theives. So now you're in a situation where you've anchored the siphon unit to the POS. The "alarm has been sounded" and you are trying to run the goods to a station and then get back to make another trip. The POS owners/defenders are probbably trying to some combination of three things 1) Get some POS gunners to the POS. 2) Form a fleet to stomp you. 3) Intercept your hauler. Add to this the fact that, in my version of events, the siphon unit is expensive enough that losing it would be a big enough deal that you would try to hang around to defend while it unanchors and you've got a pretty interesting situation. I really want someone to think they have enough time for "one more run" before the hammer drops and be wrong. I think this would also give small gangs a reason to interact with structures and might even get more people out messing with much larger entities.
Instead, what we are getting is a throw-away deployable to mess with inattentive POS owners. The strategy is clearly to drop a ton of these and see who doesn't notice it. It's going to be annoying for POS owners but generate very few fights. People are going to just sneak around your space shitting them out and then, later, you will have to go weed them out. Mostly going to be a hastle for everyone and I'm not sure what is a good place to put the cost of the siphon unit vs the expected return such that people will bother to do it at all but they will not be everywhere. I suspect it's going to end up being something with a negative expected return that 0.0 blocs do to stress out their enemies logistics. Perfect, just what this game needs. More **** for the logi core lets make those guys all quit.
At this point, I'm wondering how this supposed to actually be fun? |
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1396
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 21:28:00 -
[931] - Quote
i am starting a new sevice... i call it siphon squad... i will personally monitor your poses for siphons. my only charge is erotic dancers, fedos and a nude photo of bea Arthur. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1272
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 21:52:00 -
[932] - Quote
The question I have is, why does the most successful fight generator out there with probably the most fair mechanics have to be modified? Aren't there other ways you can help out smaller playergroups without messing with moon mining?
(Hint: It's not easy to farm deep nullsec moons if your supply chain is being disrupted.) |
Ereshgikal
Pigs and Sows
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 21:52:00 -
[933] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:i am starting a new sevice... i call it siphon squad... i will personally monitor your poses for siphons. my only charge is erotic dancers, fedos and a nude photo of bea Arthur.
How can you monitor a POS for syphons when you are blind? |
Old Man Sam
Fishy Old Men in Space
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 22:04:00 -
[934] - Quote
While even coming from my fingertips, this idea is so stupid I want to melt myself for saying it: Siphon yourself.
I'm not joking. Get small guns and put them out around your pos, and syphon every last drop out. Greifers dont get an advantage to putting more down, you get more storage (the more siphons you add, the more storage you get) and you own the syphons. Insert bubbles around your pos, and no one can steal your stuff without incredible resolve (assumming blues dont steal, your pos kills any idiot haulers taking your goo, and interdictors who try to fast steal are gonna spend hours flying back and forth).
Rubicon: Because we can. |
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
838
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 22:13:00 -
[935] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Yeah, the cost isn't balanced at all. These things will pay for itself (including waste) in the time a regular tower owner sleeps. It is one thing if a tower owner can reasonably find it in the time that it might equate to a loss for the placer greater than the profit gained. It is quite another if you can just mass spray them cross entire portions of EVE and be virtually assured of payback.
The cost should not be balanced at a few hours and probably should be set at at least 12-18 hours. Is that really reasonable to require every tower owner to check their tower 3 times a day? This is exactly why skill queues were implemented and that was far less of a burden.
Balance the cost much higher. 10m that gets returned in just 2-5 hours is silly and not remotely balanced and is only going to mean mass spraying across EVE and end up as spam more than interaction.
nice those bitter goon tears, please go on... ... |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
355
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 22:16:00 -
[936] - Quote
Ereshgikal wrote:MeBiatch wrote:i am starting a new sevice... i call it siphon squad... i will personally monitor your poses for siphons. my only charge is erotic dancers, fedos and a nude photo of bea Arthur. How can you monitor a POS for syphons when you are blind?
I laughed, I don't even know who Bea Arthur is, but I laughed. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
409
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 22:44:00 -
[937] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:The question I have is, why does the most successful fight generator out there with probably the most fair mechanics have to be modified? AHAHAHAHAHHAHHHAAAAAAHAHAhahaahha HAHAHAHHAAAAHHAAAHAHAahahahahha... *gasp* *wheeze* Oh man....that was good....
Yeah no, it was such a good mechanic it was listed as one of the most problematic aspects of eve in more CSM minutes and notes than I would care to count for years on end.
It was so fair and balanced that it had to be nerfed repeatedly, and entire new mechanics (alchemy) had to be created around it.
Nice try, and enjoy the new competition. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4860
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:02:00 -
[938] - Quote
Old Man Sam wrote:While even coming from my fingertips, this idea is so stupid I want to melt myself for saying it: Siphon yourself.
I'm not joking. Get small guns and put them out around your pos, and syphon every last drop out. Greifers dont get an advantage to putting more down, you get more storage (the more siphons you add, the more storage you get) and you own the syphons. Insert bubbles around your pos, and no one can steal your stuff without incredible resolve (assumming blues dont steal, your pos kills any idiot haulers taking your goo, and interdictors who try to fast steal are gonna spend hours flying back and forth).
Rubicon: Because we can. 50km of bubbles? Or just preventing people from taking it out of "your" siphon?
Also, you lose 20% of what is siphoned into the air .... which is ok i guess. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Frankster Ijonen
No tax for you
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:02:00 -
[939] - Quote
mynnna wrote:The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.
By allowing two different strategies of siphon placement (20% interdiction vs steal resources) the mechanic has greater depth than your appeal to tilde tilde tilde honourable space combat tilde tilde tilde. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
767
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:02:00 -
[940] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote: nice those bitter goon tears, please go on...
Ah, good, there we g--oh wait, this one doesn't count. Can we get someone else to come up with a "goon tears" post for this page please? Harry Forever says "goon tears" to alarm clocks, ringing phones, and barking dogs.
|
|
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
410
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:08:00 -
[941] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Harry Forever wrote: nice those bitter goon tears, please go on...
Ah, good, there we g--oh wait, this one doesn't count. Can we get someone else to come up with a "goon tears" post for this page please? Harry Forever says "goon tears" to alarm clocks, ringing phones, and barking dogs. Ask and ye shall receive.
Every time a goon cries in this thread, Chuck Norris adopts an animal-shelter kitten. Please continue crying, and cry gratuitously. Together we can prevent a tragedy. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
461
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:09:00 -
[942] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:Aryth wrote:Yeah, the cost isn't balanced at all. These things will pay for itself (including waste) in the time a regular tower owner sleeps. It is one thing if a tower owner can reasonably find it in the time that it might equate to a loss for the placer greater than the profit gained. It is quite another if you can just mass spray them cross entire portions of EVE and be virtually assured of payback.
The cost should not be balanced at a few hours and probably should be set at at least 12-18 hours. Is that really reasonable to require every tower owner to check their tower 3 times a day? This is exactly why skill queues were implemented and that was far less of a burden.
Balance the cost much higher. 10m that gets returned in just 2-5 hours is silly and not remotely balanced and is only going to mean mass spraying across EVE and end up as spam more than interaction.
nice those bitter goon tears, please go on... Ah Harry Forever, confusing our tears of mirth with bitter tears. CCP is going to hand everyone the greatist griefing tool EVE has seen since remote doomsdays, and he thinks we are crying bitter tears. Seriously it's like we are Cassandra, blessed with the power of prophecy, yet cursed with no one believing our prophecy. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:12:00 -
[943] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Expressing my understanding of your point and position. Don't agree with it, but eh, CCP is determined to ignore us and implement this and then they will nerf it to oblivion once goons complete the cycle of deliberate abuse that has started now that they have warned CCP about it being OP. Oh you noticed the cycle ... Still working on drone assist, it appears they are PERFECTLY BALANCED and cannot be abused
I didn't imply with this comment that CCP were in any way shape or form, on the ball in dealing with the "Goon Broken Feature Cycle of Abuse" It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4861
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:14:00 -
[944] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Expressing my understanding of your point and position. Don't agree with it, but eh, CCP is determined to ignore us and implement this and then they will nerf it to oblivion once goons complete the cycle of deliberate abuse that has started now that they have warned CCP about it being OP. Oh you noticed the cycle ... Still working on drone assist, it appears they are PERFECTLY BALANCED and cannot be abused I didn't imply with this comment that CCP were in any way shape or form, on the ball in dealing with the "Goon Broken Feature Cycle of Abuse" If they were the features wouldn' be released in an abuseably broken manner.
But they aren't, and thus we can have fun.
GOON TEARRSSSSSSSSS There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
410
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:19:00 -
[945] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: If they were the features wouldn' be released in an abuseably broken manner.
But they aren't, and thus we can have fun.
GOON TEARRSSSSSSSSS
Curious, how do the goons plan on abusing this feature when the CFC holds most of the valuable moons? What are you gonna do, mass siphon N3? See if anyone cares, their moons don't hold a candle to yours.
No one else has sufficiently large siphon-able assets. This is gonna be FUN. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4861
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:22:00 -
[946] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: If they were the features wouldn' be released in an abuseably broken manner.
But they aren't, and thus we can have fun.
GOON TEARRSSSSSSSSS
Curious, how do the goons plan on abusing this feature when the CFC holds most of the valuable moons? What are you gonna do, mass siphon N3? See if anyone cares, their moons don't hold a candle to yours. No one else has sufficiently large siphon-able assets. This is gonna be FUN. Exactly, see the goon cryingggg
tearsssss There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Southern Kros
LOW SEC MINING
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:27:00 -
[947] - Quote
Sure looks like goons issued a CTA to this dev blog.
Maybe they don't like the idea that their precious AFK moon mining will actually require them to stop ratting and get off their arse to manage them.
|
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
769
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:27:00 -
[948] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Seriously it's like we are Cassandra, blessed with the power of prophecy, yet cursed with no one believing our prophecy.
Imagine if Cassandra had a bookie. We're that Cassandra.
|
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
461
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:28:00 -
[949] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: If they were the features wouldn' be released in an abuseably broken manner.
But they aren't, and thus we can have fun.
GOON TEARRSSSSSSSSS
Curious, how do the goons plan on abusing this feature when the CFC holds most of the valuable moons? What are you gonna do, mass siphon N3? See if anyone cares, their moons don't hold a candle to yours. No one else has sufficiently large siphon-able assets. This is gonna be FUN. You have all the peices, you just have to put them together. GOONNNN TEARRRSSSSSSSS!!!! You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4861
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:30:00 -
[950] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: If they were the features wouldn' be released in an abuseably broken manner.
But they aren't, and thus we can have fun.
GOON TEARRSSSSSSSSS
Curious, how do the goons plan on abusing this feature when the CFC holds most of the valuable moons? What are you gonna do, mass siphon N3? See if anyone cares, their moons don't hold a candle to yours. No one else has sufficiently large siphon-able assets. This is gonna be FUN. You have all the peices, you just have to put them together. GOONNNN TEARRRSSSSSSSS!!!! I'm cryinggggggg There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:31:00 -
[951] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: If they were the features wouldn' be released in an abuseably broken manner.
But they aren't, and thus we can have fun.
GOON TEARRSSSSSSSSS
Curious, how do the goons plan on abusing this feature when the CFC holds most of the valuable moons? What are you gonna do, mass siphon N3? See if anyone cares, their moons don't hold a candle to yours. No one else has sufficiently large siphon-able assets. This is gonna be FUN. You have all the peices, you just have to put them together. GOONNNN TEARRRSSSSSSSS!!!!
spin it moar |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
769
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:31:00 -
[952] - Quote
Southern Kros wrote:Sure looks like goons issued a CTA to this dev blog.
Maybe they don't like the idea that their precious AFK moon mining will actually require them to stop ratting and get off their arse to manage them.
Ah, yes, the legendary goon posting CTA. I was wondering when that would come up. Yes, an alliance of thousands, recruited from a forum of active posters and requiring an active posting history on said forum, actually needs to have a CTA to have a dozen or so of its members come post on this blog.
You're just not very bright, are you. Poor thing. |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
410
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:33:00 -
[953] - Quote
Mmmmm.....Relevant. |
Southern Kros
LOW SEC MINING
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:35:00 -
[954] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Southern Kros wrote:Sure looks like goons issued a CTA to this dev blog.
Maybe they don't like the idea that their precious AFK moon mining will actually require them to stop ratting and get off their arse to manage them.
Ah, yes, the legendary goon posting CTA. I was wondering when that would come up. Yes, an alliance of thousands, recruited from a forum of active posters and requiring an active posting history on said forum, actually needs to have a CTA to have a dozen or so of its members come post on this blog. You're just not very bright, are you. Poor thing.
Well, your the goon, and lets be honest, lemmings are not the brightest lamp in the street. Leave being bright to the ones that are. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
769
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:36:00 -
[955] - Quote
Hahaha you like South Park. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
462
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:38:00 -
[956] - Quote
Southern Kros wrote:Sure looks like goons issued a CTA to this dev blog.
Maybe they don't like the idea that their precious AFK moon mining will actually require them to stop ratting and get off their arse to manage them.
Who needs a CTA when, the major function of this thread is to point and laugh. I mean dumb pubbies whos mating call seems to be " Goon tears" and CCP rolling out a hilariously bad game mechanic, all that is left is for us to wait for a few months while the T2 market sharts it's jorts, who could resist. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
769
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:38:00 -
[957] - Quote
Southern Kros wrote: Well, your the goon, and lets be honest, lemmings are not the brightest lamp in the street. Leave being bright to the ones that are.
Now this is special. |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:38:00 -
[958] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:i am starting a new sevice... i call it siphon squad... i will personally monitor your poses for siphons. my only charge is erotic dancers, fedos and a nude photo of bea Arthur.
I don't want my breakfast anymore..... It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4861
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:40:00 -
[959] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Southern Kros wrote:Sure looks like goons issued a CTA to this dev blog.
Maybe they don't like the idea that their precious AFK moon mining will actually require them to stop ratting and get off their arse to manage them. Who needs a CTA when, the major function of this thread is to point and laugh. I mean dumb pubbies whos mating call seems to be " Goon tears" and CCP rolling out a hilariously bad game mechanic, all that is left is for us to wait for a few months while the T2 market sharts it's jorts, who could resist. Actually, it's always the same dozen or so goons. There's a reason for that... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
769
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:42:00 -
[960] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: Actually, it's always the same dozen or so goons. There's a reason for that...
None of us wants to actually log in to Eve. |
|
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:43:00 -
[961] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Expressing my understanding of your point and position. Don't agree with it, but eh, CCP is determined to ignore us and implement this and then they will nerf it to oblivion once goons complete the cycle of deliberate abuse that has started now that they have warned CCP about it being OP. Oh you noticed the cycle ... Still working on drone assist, it appears they are PERFECTLY BALANCED and cannot be abused I didn't imply with this comment that CCP were in any way shape or form, on the ball in dealing with the "Goon Broken Feature Cycle of Abuse" If they were the features wouldn' be released in an abuseably broken manner. But they aren't, and thus we can have fun. GOON TEARRSSSSSSSSS
Just you like you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, you can tell a CCP Dev that they have ****** up, but you won't make them budget for the time needed to fix the problem in the next patch round.
It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Southern Kros
LOW SEC MINING
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:43:00 -
[962] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Falin Whalen wrote:Southern Kros wrote:Sure looks like goons issued a CTA to this dev blog.
Maybe they don't like the idea that their precious AFK moon mining will actually require them to stop ratting and get off their arse to manage them. Who needs a CTA when, the major function of this thread is to point and laugh. I mean dumb pubbies whos mating call seems to be " Goon tears" and CCP rolling out a hilariously bad game mechanic, all that is left is for us to wait for a few months while the T2 market sharts it's jorts, who could resist. Actually, it's always the same dozen or so goons. There's a reason for that...
You telling me only a dozen or so goons can read / write? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4861
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:44:00 -
[963] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Expressing my understanding of your point and position. Don't agree with it, but eh, CCP is determined to ignore us and implement this and then they will nerf it to oblivion once goons complete the cycle of deliberate abuse that has started now that they have warned CCP about it being OP. Oh you noticed the cycle ... Still working on drone assist, it appears they are PERFECTLY BALANCED and cannot be abused I didn't imply with this comment that CCP were in any way shape or form, on the ball in dealing with the "Goon Broken Feature Cycle of Abuse" If they were the features wouldn' be released in an abuseably broken manner. But they aren't, and thus we can have fun. GOON TEARRSSSSSSSSS Just you like you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, you can tell a CCP Dev that they have ****** up, but you won't make them budget for the time needed to fix the problem in the next patch round. Supposedly you can feed the horse salt, but in such cases it's more like rubbing salt on the wound There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
769
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:47:00 -
[964] - Quote
Southern Kros wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Falin Whalen wrote:Southern Kros wrote:Sure looks like goons issued a CTA to this dev blog.
Maybe they don't like the idea that their precious AFK moon mining will actually require them to stop ratting and get off their arse to manage them. Who needs a CTA when, the major function of this thread is to point and laugh. I mean dumb pubbies whos mating call seems to be " Goon tears" and CCP rolling out a hilariously bad game mechanic, all that is left is for us to wait for a few months while the T2 market sharts it's jorts, who could resist. Actually, it's always the same dozen or so goons. There's a reason for that... You telling me only a dozen or so goons can read / write?
Please tell me that pretending to be a functional illiterate while calling other people dumb is a gimmick you've come up with and you're going to do some kind of hilarious reveal soon.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4861
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:49:00 -
[965] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Southern Kros wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Falin Whalen wrote:Southern Kros wrote:Sure looks like goons issued a CTA to this dev blog.
Maybe they don't like the idea that their precious AFK moon mining will actually require them to stop ratting and get off their arse to manage them. Who needs a CTA when, the major function of this thread is to point and laugh. I mean dumb pubbies whos mating call seems to be " Goon tears" and CCP rolling out a hilariously bad game mechanic, all that is left is for us to wait for a few months while the T2 market sharts it's jorts, who could resist. Actually, it's always the same dozen or so goons. There's a reason for that... You telling me only a dozen or so goons can read / write? Please tell me that pretending to be a functional illiterate while calling other people dumb is a gimmick you've come up with and you're going to do some kind of hilarious reveal soon. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dPaVk4G1jg
no honor among goons There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Zappity
Kurved Space
561
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:51:00 -
[966] - Quote
Southern Kros wrote:Sure looks like goons issued a CTA to this dev blog.
Maybe they don't like the idea that their precious AFK moon mining will actually require them to stop ratting and get off their arse to manage them.
You haven't thought it through. The goons have made no secret of their disdain for these forums. If they did get their members to fully engage on any issue of importance the claims of tears would be irrefutable and actually justifiable (unlike now). And it would be hilarious.
So after the goons with authority have posted the ones left behind clearly have nothing better to do. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:52:00 -
[967] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: Supposedly you can feed the horse salt, but in such cases it's more like rubbing salt on the wound
Funnily enough, in the 8th to 14th centuries salt was nearly as valuable as gold throughout Europe due to the fact that it was a limited resource which when fed to stock increased the animals size, the animals couldn't get enough salt from the land, hence it was mined in what is now Switzerland and traded down the Rhine an Danube rivers. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4861
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:53:00 -
[968] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Southern Kros wrote:Sure looks like goons issued a CTA to this dev blog.
Maybe they don't like the idea that their precious AFK moon mining will actually require them to stop ratting and get off their arse to manage them. You haven't thought it through. The goons have made no secret of their disdain for these forums. If they did get their members to fully engage on any issue of importance the claims of tears would be irrefutable and actually justifiable (unlike now). And it would be hilarious. So after the goons with authority have posted the ones left behind clearly have nothing better to do. Actually, to be quite honest, there was no related broadcast. It was just us discussing this thing on our evil out-of-game communication software that somehow led us all to come a-postin' There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4861
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 23:59:00 -
[969] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Supposedly you can feed the horse salt, but in such cases it's more like rubbing salt on the wound
Funnily enough, in the 8th to 14th centuries salt was nearly as valuable as gold throughout Europe due to the fact that it was a limited resource which when fed to stock increased the animals size, the animals couldn't get enough salt from the land, hence it was mined in what is now Switzerland and traded down the Rhine an Danube rivers. Yeah, livestock need to get minerals and so on, usually delivered in what is called a mineral lick. Salt and other things are very important for growth and health. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 00:12:00 -
[970] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Supposedly you can feed the horse salt, but in such cases it's more like rubbing salt on the wound
Funnily enough, in the 8th to 14th centuries salt was nearly as valuable as gold throughout Europe due to the fact that it was a limited resource which when fed to stock increased the animals size, the animals couldn't get enough salt from the land, hence it was mined in what is now Switzerland and traded down the Rhine an Danube rivers. Yeah, livestock need to get minerals and so on, usually delivered in what is called a mineral lick. Salt and other things are very important for growth and health.
Not really relevant to these discussions, but fascinating history for sure. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
|
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
681
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 00:41:00 -
[971] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Zloco Crendraven wrote:Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.
Yeah, that will be tons of fun. Everyone fleet up for the "go warp to all the moons in our region to look for anchorable structures" fleet! Won't that be fun? I'm gonna go sub another six accounts right now because this just sounds so interesting and ~*emergent*~... There is only one good thing about this terrible expansion and it's the warp speed changes... literally the only good thing that's happened to EVE online in the last two years. tl;dr: Get your head examined, friend. D-scan. And if you don't have your people in your region occupying your space, what is the point in you having your space when someone else could obviously make better use of it? The problem with nullsec is the sprawling empires of uninhabited space, and this is a solution to that. Except that nobody's going to give up their space because you evaporated 12% of their moongoo and maybe stole a little more for yourself. I'll repeat that, because I don't think you get it: nobody is going roll over and give away their space to some hypothetical small, up-and-coming player group. It's not going to happen. All siphons are going to do is irritate people and drive up the price of moon goo. They aren't going to provide any fun gameplay for anyone (the "griefer" gets all the enjoyment of dropping something out of their cargo hold, while the successful "defender" gets all the excitement of finding an abandoned structure and then blowing it up unopposed) and they're not going to affect the sov landscape, so they're essentially pointless detractors from EVE Online: A Decaying Spaceship Game. Flying around through space full of blues to look for abandoned structures is boring, whether it's using probes, d-scan, or the Mk 1 Eyeball. This "feature" is a stupid idea and a waste of development time / our money. If you don't wish to surrender your moon goo profits then you can check for siphons. It's not that hard, you see, there is this wonderful thing called "D-Scan" and "Probes" that help you find them, and a POS mod called a "gun" that will destroy them. a¦á_a¦á There shouldn't be an almost unchallenged passive income, now there isn't.
You are dumb. There is already a mechanic for contesting passive moon income: it's called reinforce the POS. It eliminates 100% of the moon mining for the duration of the reinforcement timer. Even if you can't compete with the hostile fleet in order to KILL the tower, you can still cruise around reinforcing stuff in some empty timezone. If you don't have the resources to reinforce a POS then you have no business posing as a nullsec entity in the first place: go roaming and enjoy yourself. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
462
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 00:49:00 -
[972] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Supposedly you can feed the horse salt, but in such cases it's more like rubbing salt on the wound
Funnily enough, in the 8th to 14th centuries salt was nearly as valuable as gold throughout Europe due to the fact that it was a limited resource which when fed to stock increased the animals size, the animals couldn't get enough salt from the land, hence it was mined in what is now Switzerland and traded down the Rhine an Danube rivers. Yeah, livestock need to get minerals and so on, usually delivered in what is called a mineral lick. Salt and other things are very important for growth and health. Not really relevant to these discussions, but fascinating history for sure. It is relevant, Highsec pubbies think that they are going to lick our salt, but we will rub it into their wounds instead. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
681
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 00:52:00 -
[973] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Supposedly you can feed the horse salt, but in such cases it's more like rubbing salt on the wound
Funnily enough, in the 8th to 14th centuries salt was nearly as valuable as gold throughout Europe due to the fact that it was a limited resource which when fed to stock increased the animals size, the animals couldn't get enough salt from the land, hence it was mined in what is now Switzerland and traded down the Rhine an Danube rivers.
Salt Facts, Friday, 18 October 2013. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4862
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 00:52:00 -
[974] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: Supposedly you can feed the horse salt, but in such cases it's more like rubbing salt on the wound
Funnily enough, in the 8th to 14th centuries salt was nearly as valuable as gold throughout Europe due to the fact that it was a limited resource which when fed to stock increased the animals size, the animals couldn't get enough salt from the land, hence it was mined in what is now Switzerland and traded down the Rhine an Danube rivers. Yeah, livestock need to get minerals and so on, usually delivered in what is called a mineral lick. Salt and other things are very important for growth and health. Not really relevant to these discussions, but fascinating history for sure. It is relevant, Highsec pubbies think that they are going to lick our salt, but we will rub it into their wounds instead. lick our "salt" There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4862
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 00:53:00 -
[975] - Quote
Our salt-containing tears, that is. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 00:55:00 -
[976] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Our salt-containing tears, that is.
I completely forgot that tears are salty, so not only do pubbie tears nourish the soul, they also feed the body. Totally relevant. My mistake. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
770
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 00:58:00 -
[977] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Zappity wrote: So after the goons with authority have posted the ones left behind clearly have nothing better to do.
Actually, to be quite honest, there was no related broadcast. It was just us discussing this thing on our evil out-of-game communication software that somehow led us all to come a-postin'
Never not post. Posting is what we do. It's like pooping, only it's all over these dumb Eve forums.
|
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1272
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:25:00 -
[978] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:EI Digin wrote:The question I have is, why does the most successful fight generator out there with probably the most fair mechanics have to be modified? AHAHAHAHAHHAHHHAAAAAAHAHAhahaahha HAHAHAHHAAAAHHAAAHAHAahahahahha... *gasp* *wheeze* Oh man....that was good.... Yeah no, it was such a good mechanic it was listed as one of the most problematic aspects of eve in more CSM minutes and notes than I would care to count for years on end. It was so fair and balanced that it had to be nerfed repeatedly, and entire new mechanics (alchemy) had to be created around it. Nice try, and enjoy the new competition. POS RF mechanic is so unfair. |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
412
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:27:00 -
[979] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:EI Digin wrote:The question I have is, why does the most successful fight generator out there with probably the most fair mechanics have to be modified? AHAHAHAHAHHAHHHAAAAAAHAHAhahaahha HAHAHAHHAAAAHHAAAHAHAahahahahha... *gasp* *wheeze* Oh man....that was good.... Yeah no, it was such a good mechanic it was listed as one of the most problematic aspects of eve in more CSM minutes and notes than I would care to count for years on end. It was so fair and balanced that it had to be nerfed repeatedly, and entire new mechanics (alchemy) had to be created around it. Nice try, and enjoy the new competition. POS RF mechanic is so unfair. Show me on the doll where you think the mean siphon will touch you. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
771
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:50:00 -
[980] - Quote
I'm looking forward to the hilarious about face half the posters in this thread do when CCP announces the planetary version of this. No more passive income without PvP, right? twisted twisted twisted |
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1236
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:55:00 -
[981] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:I'm looking forward to the hilarious about face half the posters in this thread do when CCP announces the planetary version of this. No more passive income without PvP, right? twisted twisted twisted
I thought they already did? As in, the highsec pocos, and such?
You can bet I'll be setting mine up to about 5% higher than the NPCs did, by the way. Just high enough to make them mad about having to pay it, just low enough that they won't muster up a wardec to shoot it. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4862
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 02:51:00 -
[982] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:I'm looking forward to the hilarious about face half the posters in this thread do when CCP announces the planetary version of this. No more passive income without PvP, right? twisted twisted twisted I thought they already did? As in, the highsec pocos, and such? You can bet I'll be setting mine up to about 5% higher than the NPCs did, by the way. Just high enough to make them mad about having to pay it, just low enough that they won't muster up a wardec to shoot it. No, the idea is to siphon, Shooting your poco is like shooting the pos.
Clearly a module that takes away poco income and feeds the isk into your wallet is the way to go There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Strom Crendraven
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
49
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 03:14:00 -
[983] - Quote
I have honestly never even seen moon goo and I wouldn't know where it comes from if I bumped up against it and decloaked myself, but I do love a good troll. I have also never pubicly agreed with the goons on anything but I have to admit i'm about to. I forecast the goons will take this s**t sammich, forge it into a big spiked di*do and ram it back up everyones as**s in such a manner that I will see most of you here on the 'OMG siphons OP please CCP make it stop" threadnought in six months. You little "i'm gonna take it to the big guys!!" people keep your chins up...your gonna need it. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
773
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 03:30:00 -
[984] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote: I have honestly never even seen moon goo and I wouldn't know where it comes from if I bumped up against it and decloaked myself, but I do love a good troll. I have also never pubicly agreed with the goons on anything but I have to admit i'm about to. I forecast the goons will take this s**t sammich, forge it into a big spiked di*do and ram it back up everyones as**s in such a manner that I will see most of you here on the 'OMG siphons OP please CCP make it stop" threadnought in six months. You little "i'm gonna take it to the big guys!!" people keep your chins up...your gonna need it.
Thread keeps gettin' sexier. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4862
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 03:33:00 -
[985] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Strom Crendraven wrote: I have honestly never even seen moon goo and I wouldn't know where it comes from if I bumped up against it and decloaked myself, but I do love a good troll. I have also never pubicly agreed with the goons on anything but I have to admit i'm about to. I forecast the goons will take this s**t sammich, forge it into a big spiked di*do and ram it back up everyones as**s in such a manner that I will see most of you here on the 'OMG siphons OP please CCP make it stop" threadnought in six months. You little "i'm gonna take it to the big guys!!" people keep your chins up...your gonna need it. Thread keeps gettin' sexier. A big spikes what. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Ludi Burek
Toilet Emergency JIHADASQUAD
266
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 03:39:00 -
[986] - Quote
How is it even physically possible to be so dumb and claim moon mining/reacting is passive income? By that logic everything you do is passive coz you put the stuff up for sale and "passively wait", right? Let's ignore everything done up until then.
As someone who owns a bunch of ghetto moons in low sec (read not the 64s) I can see this become extremely annoying. Annoying enough to stop bothering because low sec with the lack of bubbles is the lowest hanging fruit and people will quickly realize it. What really grinds my gears is the dumb ***** who think only goons own moons and it's all about the nullsec alliances, sticking it to the big boys etc... Because a single player cannot possible run 20+ poses right? It's a corp endeavor, terrible people unsuccessful at everything, grinding together their lone platinum moon...
CCP again screws over individuals with initiative. |
Strom Crendraven
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
49
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 03:43:00 -
[987] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Strom Crendraven wrote: I have honestly never even seen moon goo and I wouldn't know where it comes from if I bumped up against it and decloaked myself, but I do love a good troll. I have also never pubicly agreed with the goons on anything but I have to admit i'm about to. I forecast the goons will take this s**t sammich, forge it into a big spiked di*do and ram it back up everyones as**s in such a manner that I will see most of you here on the 'OMG siphons OP please CCP make it stop" threadnought in six months. You little "i'm gonna take it to the big guys!!" people keep your chins up...your gonna need it. Thread keeps gettin' sexier. A big spiked what. Sorry can't say it out loud, been deleted enough off the forums. But I can whisper it in your ear.. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4863
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 03:58:00 -
[988] - Quote
Ludi Burek wrote:How is it even physically possible to be so dumb and claim moon mining/reacting is passive income? By that logic everything you do is passive coz you put the stuff up for sale and "passively wait", right? Let's ignore everything done up until then. As someone who owns a bunch of ghetto moons in low sec (read not the 64s) I can see this become extremely annoying. Annoying enough to stop bothering because low sec with the lack of bubbles is the lowest hanging fruit and people will quickly realize it. What really grinds my gears is the dumb ***** who think only goons own moons and it's all about the nullsec alliances, sticking it to the big boys etc... Because a single player cannot possible run 20+ poses right? It's a corp endeavor, terrible people unsuccessful at everything, grinding together their lone platinum moon... CCP again screws over individuals with initiative. goons are crying, that should be enough for you There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 03:59:00 -
[989] - Quote
Southern Kros wrote: lemmings are not the brightest lamp in the street
And yet, clearly lemmings are smarter than the people who talk about them like they're stupid little creatures. You do know that whole 'lemmings running off of a cliff to drown' thing was staged, right? That the Disney producers had the scene filmed from below the edge of the cliff because the lemmings wouldn't suicide, so they were throwing them over the cliff?
Honestly, people getting basic facts wrong while trying to insult someone's intelligence... it's like the internet is full of morons!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4867
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 04:12:00 -
[990] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Southern Kros wrote: lemmings are not the brightest lamp in the street And yet, clearly lemmings are smarter than the people who talk about them like they're stupid little creatures. You do know that whole 'lemmings running off of a cliff to drown' thing was staged, right? That the Disney producers had the scene filmed from below the edge of the cliff because the lemmings wouldn't suicide, so they were throwing them over the cliff? Honestly, people getting basic facts wrong while trying to insult someone's intelligence... it's like the internet is full of morons! It, uh, is. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
Khoul Ay'd
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
111
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 04:12:00 -
[991] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Southern Kros wrote: lemmings are not the brightest lamp in the street And yet, clearly lemmings are smarter than the people who talk about them like they're stupid little creatures. You do know that whole 'lemmings running off of a cliff to drown' thing was staged, right? That the Disney producers had the scene filmed from below the edge of the cliff because the lemmings wouldn't suicide, so they were throwing them over the cliff? Honestly, people getting basic facts wrong while trying to insult someone's intelligence... it's like the internet is full of morons!
I suppose next you'll lie to us and tell us Flower and Thumper did more than snuggle in the briar patch with their mates?
The analogy holds true, CCP is offer to toss you off a cliff with this thing. Where's the largest populations in EVE? And what are the 'other' siphoners gonna siphon? Mark my words its the little guys that are gonna end up paying, not the Null Alliances. The things we do today we must live with forever.... Think about it |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4867
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 04:18:00 -
[992] - Quote
Khoul Ay'd wrote:Arrendis wrote:Southern Kros wrote: lemmings are not the brightest lamp in the street And yet, clearly lemmings are smarter than the people who talk about them like they're stupid little creatures. You do know that whole 'lemmings running off of a cliff to drown' thing was staged, right? That the Disney producers had the scene filmed from below the edge of the cliff because the lemmings wouldn't suicide, so they were throwing them over the cliff? Honestly, people getting basic facts wrong while trying to insult someone's intelligence... it's like the internet is full of morons! I suppose next you'll lie to us and tell us Flower and Thumper did more than snuggle in the briar patch with their mates? The analogy holds true, CCP is offer to toss you off a cliff with this thing. Where's the largest populations in EVE? And what are the 'other' siphoners gonna siphon? Mark my words its the little guys that are gonna end up paying, not the Null Alliances. It's ok though, as long as goons lose more. Thanks for taking a hit so that the goons will be hurt somewhat
Wait the largest population in eve is highsec miners/mission runners There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
73
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 04:25:00 -
[993] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Arrendis wrote:it's like the internet is full of morons!
It, uh, is.
Don't you go spoiling my idealistic visions of a vast world-spanning network where intelligent people can communicate in erudite, carefully-written exchanges of well-thought-out ideas, leading to productive conversations that actually advance mutual understa-...
... ok, I can't even finish that thought without cracking up. I'm'a go back to reading Poptart's 'Let's All Play Battletech and Re-Write the History of the Inner Sphere' LP. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4867
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 04:27:00 -
[994] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Arrendis wrote:it's like the internet is full of morons!
It, uh, is. Don't you go spoiling my idealistic visions of a vast world-spanning network where intelligent people can communicate in erudite, carefully-written exchanges of well-thought-out ideas, leading to productive conversations that actually advance mutual understa-... ... ok, I can't even finish that thought without cracking up. I'm'a go back to reading Poptart's 'Let's All Play Battletech and Re-Write the History of the Inner Sphere' LP. our secret goonfleetdotcom forums
screw around anywhere important and deadtear will show you out There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
73
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 04:27:00 -
[995] - Quote
I'm back now. Only 3 new posts. |
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
73
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 04:28:00 -
[996] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Arrendis wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Arrendis wrote:it's like the internet is full of morons!
It, uh, is. Don't you go spoiling my idealistic visions of a vast world-spanning network where intelligent people can communicate in erudite, carefully-written exchanges of well-thought-out ideas, leading to productive conversations that actually advance mutual understa-... ... ok, I can't even finish that thought without cracking up. I'm'a go back to reading Poptart's 'Let's All Play Battletech and Re-Write the History of the Inner Sphere' LP. our secret goonfleetdotcom forums screw around anywhere important and deadtear will show you out
Nah, the LP's over on SA, in predictably enough, the LP forum. |
Von Keigai
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 04:35:00 -
[997] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
(b) is just bad. Please, limit stupid limits. Siphons are cheap: fire and forget. It should not even have an owner. And yet you are planning to limit it? What if I have placed all of mine out in MNVX-27, I want to launch another? Are you going to let me evaporate one at range? Ugh.
I am indifferent to (a). I just don't see the loss as an issue. 10% is fine. Even 0% is fine.
The problem with siphons is not that they create waste. It is that they induce awful gameplay without adding much by way of cool gameplay. Specifically, they encourage checking a POS continually in order to get info about a costly event. The theft is happening hourly, it is substantial, and there is no warning of it except looking. You have to check.
Yes, the market will work its magic. As POS owners find extraction unprofitable, they leave the business, and prices rise. Eventually there is stability, where the price is high enough that the remaining producers make a profit even though they are losing 20% or whatever to siphons. But the underlying nasty game dynamic is unchanged. The way to compete, to stay profitable, is to check more often than the other guys. So the guys leaving the market will be those that have jobs and lives. The remaining ones are those who can check, if not every hour, every few hours at worst. They are all competing against each other to be the one that checks most diligently. This is unfun for all owners, but they cannot opt out of the race against each other without becoming unprofitable.
Further, siphons do not generate much PVP. About the most you can say about that is that perhaps some people will get killed trying to sneak across nullsec in their blockade runners loaded with siphons. But in terms of what happens at a POS, nothing. If the owner discovers the thing, he goes out and takes back the goo. Then he blows up the siphon using POS guns or a few minutes of Dominix. Leave a domi and gardes at each pos, sitting there, waiting for use. If a thief finds a siphon, he nips in cloaked and aligned, checks and grabs, and is out of there. The POS won't stop him and neither will anything except maybe an interceptor sitting close. If there is an interceptor, the thief does not uncloak. But an interceptor is highly unlikely, since there is no reason for the POS owner to believe that a thief will come at any particular time.
The real problem is the asynchronous design. I realize this seems like a feature to some, but it's bad. Siphons should generate conflict. Make them steal a substantial chunk but much less often, and notify both their owner and the thief at the same time, a time that neither one can predict. This is what I proposed a few pages back. Most of the time, one guy or the other will show up unopposed, because the other one is asleep or at work. Or because the POS owner is absentee and the thief is local. But at least part of the time (and more on weekends), both will show up at about the same time. Then, at least there is a chance for some interesting interaction. Not necessarily at the POS; it could be at a gate. The point is that you are encouraging both the thief and the owner to come, and at the same time. vonkeigai.blogspot.com |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4867
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 04:41:00 -
[998] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think. The second really incentives people who are able to put lots and lots of characters into such a job
I don't know who would best make use of such mechanics There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4869
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 05:08:00 -
[999] - Quote
Siegefleet, meet SiphonFleet
goon tears There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4373
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 05:14:00 -
[1000] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think. Can you add a character limit on how many POS you can maintain too?... . |
|
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4373
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 05:26:00 -
[1001] - Quote
Tippia wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Let me know what you think. I think I still want to know what the design goal behind making the API lie is. Because the information it would provide would render this wonderful addition to the game pointless. I guess why log into the game and play it when API program can play it for you right?... . |
Saissore Foo
Weaponised FuGu
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 05:46:00 -
[1002] - Quote
Quote:b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
If this is for the little guy and not for the massed alliances, make it a skill base for number of concurrent deployed siphons.
say 1 siphon per skill point with two levels of skill being available (similar to planetology/advanced planetology)
Not a barrier to anyone that wants to concentrate on using siphons, but a real limitation to an entire alliance dropping masses on smaller corps.
|
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 06:30:00 -
[1003] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think. Can you add a limit on the number of POS you can maintain too?... Also if you are so dead set on having waste you should have made it vent into space as small moon rocks that can be probed down or something that disappear in 30 days. Go to a belt, planet or something and behold, Technetium oil spill from a nearby moon...
Sure you can have a POS limit, when CCP allows personal POS instead then being tied to corps. Oh, wait that would require fiddling with old code that makes the devs soil their underwear when they look at it. Guess they will just go screw around with faked API data feeds instead, what could possibly go wrong? It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
59
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 06:50:00 -
[1004] - Quote
Ludi Burek wrote:How is it even physically possible to be so dumb and claim moon mining/reacting is passive income? By that logic everything you do is passive coz you put the stuff up for sale and "passively wait", right? Let's ignore everything done up until then. As someone who owns a bunch of ghetto moons in low sec (read not the 64s) I can see this become extremely annoying. Annoying enough to stop bothering because low sec with the lack of bubbles is the lowest hanging fruit and people will quickly realize it. What really grinds my gears is the dumb ***** who think only goons own moons and it's all about the nullsec alliances, sticking it to the big boys etc... Because a single player cannot possible run 20+ poses right? It's a corp endeavor, terrible people unsuccessful at everything, grinding together their lone platinum moon... CCP again screws over individuals with initiative. this exactly, most of the low sec moon mining pos's arent owned by any large null sec alliance. yes the some of the most profitable ones are but the majority are the small corps who just dont have the man power to constantly be checking pos's. Not to mention the small corps dont have anyone on the batphone to call for help if someone does decide to take thier pos, they must defend it themselves. Now not only do we have to worry about traveling throu hostile territory to get to/from our pos and high but we also have to do regular patrols to prevent someone from stealing from us? pos's are broken enough as is, why the **** are you breaking them even more? <Munnkeh> i'm gonna use that excuse if i ever kill someone. "look, if you keep meeting ppl, it's bound to happen eventually" http://i.imgur.com/76pQ9.jpg |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4869
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 07:00:00 -
[1005] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:Ludi Burek wrote:How is it even physically possible to be so dumb and claim moon mining/reacting is passive income? By that logic everything you do is passive coz you put the stuff up for sale and "passively wait", right? Let's ignore everything done up until then. As someone who owns a bunch of ghetto moons in low sec (read not the 64s) I can see this become extremely annoying. Annoying enough to stop bothering because low sec with the lack of bubbles is the lowest hanging fruit and people will quickly realize it. What really grinds my gears is the dumb ***** who think only goons own moons and it's all about the nullsec alliances, sticking it to the big boys etc... Because a single player cannot possible run 20+ poses right? It's a corp endeavor, terrible people unsuccessful at everything, grinding together their lone platinum moon... CCP again screws over individuals with initiative. this exactly, most of the low sec moon mining pos's arent owned by any large null sec alliance. yes the some of the most profitable ones are but the majority are the small corps who just dont have the man power to constantly be checking pos's. Not to mention the small corps dont have anyone on the batphone to call for help if someone does decide to take thier pos, they must defend it themselves. Now not only do we have to worry about traveling throu hostile territory to get to/from our pos and high but we also have to do regular patrols to prevent someone from stealing from us? pos's are broken enough as is, why the **** are you breaking them even more? these are not the goon tears i was looking for There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Herr Esiq
Dirt Nap Squad
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 07:21:00 -
[1006] - Quote
Conquerable poco's: "just wardeck them and shoot it for hours hurdurrr" Siphon units: "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah" |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4869
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 07:27:00 -
[1007] - Quote
Herr Esiq wrote:Conquerable poco's: "just wardeck them and shoot it for hours hurdurrr" Siphon units: "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah" goon tearssssss There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
marly cortez
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 10:18:00 -
[1008] - Quote
PoS syphons, Just one more iteration emanating from the desiccated thought process of an individual that honestly believes that everyone plays EVE for the sole purpose of blowing up someone else;s S*** while utterly missing the point of EVE entirely, suggest you take a break from your play station FPS, Son and take long hard look at what you have spawned into the game and the short and long term ramifications of that action both in game and out.
API's that lie, that's a good one, virtually kills off all trust in that aspect.
Guns that will not shoot attacking structures, Magnificent.
Only needs two of them to shut down a PoS process, Utterly pointless.
If you really do want to make a change to the economic dynamics of EVE, Nerf Empire Markets and force players to use Contracts and Contacts to get what they need, you want player interaction, do that, then watch the game expand into the utter chaos you seem to crave so desperately. |
Fenrix Mernher
Critical Mass Inc. Nexus Fleet
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 10:28:00 -
[1009] - Quote
The amount of posturing and whining by goons in this thread shows how good an idea it is.
|
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 10:36:00 -
[1010] - Quote
Fenrix Mernher wrote:The amount of posturing and whining by goons in this thread shows how good an idea it is.
Fry has some thoughts for you. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
|
Fenrix Mernher
Critical Mass Inc. Nexus Fleet
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 11:08:00 -
[1011] - Quote
"ablooblooblooooo my precious afk moon money"
It'll be good for the game, vast empty passages of space should have vulnerable resource streams. |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 11:28:00 -
[1012] - Quote
Fenrix Mernher wrote:"ablooblooblooooo my precious afk moon money"
It'll be good for the game, vast empty passages of space should have vulnerable resource streams.
Others in this thread have already explained to your fellow low sloping foreheads why POS's aren't AFK income, but I doubt you understood it. Just like I doubt you'll understand what will happen when goons unleash this on everyone else. Anyway, as a member of the elite N3 coalition, why don't you form a fleet and conquer those valuable streams of income then?
Or is it too far below your elite self to engage in a structure bash? Reffed POS earns no income right now, no need for little sythons. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 11:36:00 -
[1013] - Quote
I am curious if goons can nerf the module before the expansion. Some people told me they did things like that before, but I want to see it with my eyes. |
Ereshgikal
Pigs and Sows
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 11:49:00 -
[1014] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Tippia wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Let me know what you think. I think I still want to know what the design goal behind making the API lie is. Because the information it would provide would render this wonderful addition to the game pointless. I guess why log into the game and play it when API program can play it for you right?...
One of the things that makes EVE more special than other MMOs is the ability to permeate our time offline. How many don't have EVEmon/Aura/other tools set up to check evemails, notifications, skill queue notifications, etcetera? Remove that link to offline and EVE is worse off.
Marlona: Using the same logic as in your post there should be no notification about a POS being attacked, since you should really guard your POSs. And there should be no visible timer on the POS for reinforced mode since the attacker....you guessed it, should really stick around and check on when it exits reinforced mode. Personally I think that would be boring and I think that having the actions of the siphon hidden by the API would be boring. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 12:04:00 -
[1015] - Quote
Altrue wrote:That's definitely good stuff :) I'm just dissapointed about not having other sizes and tech 2 variants.
Also, POS guns should not be able to target it even in manual mode... If you want to remove a siphon, you have to dirty your hands yourself ! The 2 months of training Starbase Defence Management and associated skills got my hands dirty enough to blow up a pos syphon.
CCP Tuxford wrote:Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear. The whole concept of an API is accurate information, whether that be how much game time you have left, where your skill cue is at or most important of all, what the state of your assets is. With that being deliberately compromised it really does not show CCP in a good light. It is 1 thing to encourage a new way of stealing from others but it is another totally to actually be involved in the success of given thefts. Basically how it works is, someone puts a syphon on your pos and CCP will help them to steal your assets by making the API give you false information.
** I think CCP should rethink their position on falsifying API data. |
Siobhan Teregone
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 12:23:00 -
[1016] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Tippia wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Let me know what you think. I think I still want to know what the design goal behind making the API lie is. Because the information it would provide would render this wonderful addition to the game pointless. I guess why log into the game and play it when API program can play it for you right?...
The solution to the no-API, lying API or no-notificat is to have a character permanently logged on in a POS with overview only showing siphons. Once a siphon is visible on the character's screen, just message the owning player/corp/alliance. Eve is full of enthusiastic players able to sit seemingly all day doing absolutely nothing. Some players even have many such character running on their PC.
Unlike ratting or mining, this sort of activity involves the character doing absolutely nothing itself. I envisage these appearing in almost every system with a pos or reaction farm valuable enough to be worth alerting. Moon output prices are going to rise dramatically, and the cost of monitor the POS will be included in that price.
This would be a good time to invest in PLEX. |
Fenrix Mernher
Critical Mass Inc. Nexus Fleet
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 12:48:00 -
[1017] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Fenrix Mernher wrote:"ablooblooblooooo my precious afk moon money"
It'll be good for the game, vast empty passages of space should have vulnerable resource streams. Others in this thread have already explained to your fellow low sloping foreheads why POS's aren't AFK income, but I doubt you understood it. Just like I doubt you'll understand what will happen when goons unleash this on everyone else. Anyway, as a member of the elite N3 coalition, why don't you form a fleet and conquer those valuable streams of income then? Or is it too far below your elite self to engage in a structure bash? Reffed POS earns no income right now, no need for little sythons. I know exactly what will happen when 'goons unleash this on everybody else'. There'll be smaller fights on mining poses which won't have been pinged for days on end and will have a spontaneity to them which will be refreshing for the average F1 masher like myself.
Reffing a pos requires a fairly heavy commitment of subcaps, I could drop/pick up/destroy a bunch of siphons with some newbros in a bunch of cruisers and hope there's a brawl with the locals as I do so. Sounds much more fun to my mind. |
Siobhan Teregone
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 12:51:00 -
[1018] - Quote
Fenrix Mernher wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Fenrix Mernher wrote:"ablooblooblooooo my precious afk moon money"
It'll be good for the game, vast empty passages of space should have vulnerable resource streams. Others in this thread have already explained to your fellow low sloping foreheads why POS's aren't AFK income, but I doubt you understood it. Just like I doubt you'll understand what will happen when goons unleash this on everyone else. Anyway, as a member of the elite N3 coalition, why don't you form a fleet and conquer those valuable streams of income then? Or is it too far below your elite self to engage in a structure bash? Reffed POS earns no income right now, no need for little sythons. I know exactly what will happen when 'goons unleash this on everybody else'. There'll be smaller fights on mining poses which won't have been pinged for days on end and will have a spontaneity to them which will be refreshing for the average F1 masher like myself. Reffing a pos requires a fairly heavy commitment of subcaps, I could drop/pick up/destroy a bunch of siphons with some newbros in a bunch of cruisers and hope there's a brawl with the locals as I do so. Sounds much more fun to my mind. You are assuming that griefing will include trying to harvest the goo rather than just ejecting it and trashing it using mainly afk cloaky bombers. There won't be fights .. just griefing to make the pos fuel costs more expensive than the successful ore harvest. |
Fenrix Mernher
Critical Mass Inc. Nexus Fleet
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 12:56:00 -
[1019] - Quote
Siobhan Teregone wrote:Fenrix Mernher wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Fenrix Mernher wrote:"ablooblooblooooo my precious afk moon money"
It'll be good for the game, vast empty passages of space should have vulnerable resource streams. Others in this thread have already explained to your fellow low sloping foreheads why POS's aren't AFK income, but I doubt you understood it. Just like I doubt you'll understand what will happen when goons unleash this on everyone else. Anyway, as a member of the elite N3 coalition, why don't you form a fleet and conquer those valuable streams of income then? Or is it too far below your elite self to engage in a structure bash? Reffed POS earns no income right now, no need for little sythons. I know exactly what will happen when 'goons unleash this on everybody else'. There'll be smaller fights on mining poses which won't have been pinged for days on end and will have a spontaneity to them which will be refreshing for the average F1 masher like myself. Reffing a pos requires a fairly heavy commitment of subcaps, I could drop/pick up/destroy a bunch of siphons with some newbros in a bunch of cruisers and hope there's a brawl with the locals as I do so. Sounds much more fun to my mind. You are assuming that griefing will include trying to harvest the goo rather than just ejecting it and trashing it using mainly afk cloaky bombers. There won't be fights .. just griefing to make the pos fuel costs more expensive than the successful ore harvest.
My heart bleeds for you. |
FistyMcBumBasher
Calamitous-Intent
57
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 13:20:00 -
[1020] - Quote
First it should be said that I feel sorry for the Dev that has had to read this far into this abortion of a thread. But please be able to take a lot of these posts with a grain of salt, since a lot of people have ulterior motives.
Now, these siphons are definitely going to shake up moon mining incomes, which is the desired goal. They will also give everyone else a way to be a thorn in the side of larger absentee moon owners.
For 0.0 systems, what is stopping entities from siphoning their own pos'es, but keeping them perma bubbled with cans spammed around it to decloak anyone attempting to access the contents? Surely if the thief is de-cloaked long enough s/he will be pointed by the pos and then firmly dealt with.
All in all I like this idea, and it will definitely shake up the game like it is intended. Keep up the good work. |
|
Banjo String
Aliastra Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 13:22:00 -
[1021] - Quote
lol at all the ohmagawd the API will Lie! posts from Goons. I Wonder why that is? Broken your automatic warning system?
|
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1378
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 13:28:00 -
[1022] - Quote
Banjo String wrote:lol at all the ohmagawd the API will Lie! posts from Goons. I Wonder why that is? Broken your automatic warning system?
It would be funny if NPCs in missions could randomly get a double damage boost, but your shield/armor meters would lie about the damage you're taking and only show loss due to regular DPS. See why data sources lying to us is bad? |
Jimmy Farrere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 13:30:00 -
[1023] - Quote
Isn't the main problem with these things that they are just way too small? Like 10 times too small? Make them bigger.
It doesn't matter that the cost is low if you can only fit 1 or 2 in a frigate. No need to limit the amount deployed per player, if someone puts the effort into moving 100 behind enemy lines then let them run riot. The moon holders actually get some targets to go after rather than bubble immune, un-catchable interceptors.
Seriously, increasing the size of them puts the effort back into the mechanic without pricing them out of anyone's range or bringing in artificial limits.
Also, unless we are talking about a space carrier bag, how the hell does a 20m3 unit hold 1200m3 of goo? make them 200m3 empty, all problems solved. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1440
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 13:39:00 -
[1024] - Quote
I will summarize this entire thread with a slightly hyperbolic metaphor:
CCP: We will create a New Utopia by employing arm-banded thugs to control everyone for their own good. The Unwashed Eve Masses: Ooooh, a New Utopia. That sounds great. A Few of Us: What was that arm-banded thugs part again?
Forest, trees, etc. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 13:56:00 -
[1025] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:I will summarize this entire thread with a slightly hyperbolic metaphor:
CCP: We will create a New Utopia by employing arm-banded thugs to control everyone for their own good. The Unwashed Eve Masses: Ooooh, a New Utopia. That sounds great. A Few of Us: What was that arm-banded thugs part again?
Forest, trees, etc.
Aren't we already controlled by arm-banded thugs? Specially in nullsec |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
777
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 14:05:00 -
[1026] - Quote
Fenrix Mernher wrote:The amount of posturing and whining by goons in this thread shows how good an idea it is.
Did you see my post against self-immolation? A lot of goons agreed with me. So go hog wild.
|
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
27
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 14:05:00 -
[1027] - Quote
Fenrix Mernher wrote:Siobhan Teregone wrote:Fenrix Mernher wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Fenrix Mernher wrote:"ablooblooblooooo my precious afk moon money"
It'll be good for the game, vast empty passages of space should have vulnerable resource streams. Others in this thread have already explained to your fellow low sloping foreheads why POS's aren't AFK income, but I doubt you understood it. Just like I doubt you'll understand what will happen when goons unleash this on everyone else. Anyway, as a member of the elite N3 coalition, why don't you form a fleet and conquer those valuable streams of income then? Or is it too far below your elite self to engage in a structure bash? Reffed POS earns no income right now, no need for little sythons. I know exactly what will happen when 'goons unleash this on everybody else'. There'll be smaller fights on mining poses which won't have been pinged for days on end and will have a spontaneity to them which will be refreshing for the average F1 masher like myself. Reffing a pos requires a fairly heavy commitment of subcaps, I could drop/pick up/destroy a bunch of siphons with some newbros in a bunch of cruisers and hope there's a brawl with the locals as I do so. Sounds much more fun to my mind. You are assuming that griefing will include trying to harvest the goo rather than just ejecting it and trashing it using mainly afk cloaky bombers. There won't be fights .. just griefing to make the pos fuel costs more expensive than the successful ore harvest. My heart bleeds for you.
Pleased to see your education is proceeding at about the pace expected of you. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 14:36:00 -
[1028] - Quote
I would suggest anyone with lowsec mining pos's and corp without the ability to have someone sitting there 24/7 to keep watch for siphons, start looking for a new way to make your isk. Yes this new mechanic has been thrown together in the hope of hurting the big players in moon mining and in the long term it may have some impact on them. In the short term many griefers are going to have tons of fun siphoning anything they can put a module on. Whether it pays or not will be irrelevant for many, as griefing is not about isk or profit, it is all about taking from others what they can when they can.
What pos siphons will do; Increase the cost of moon goo, which in turn will, increase the cost of all T2 ships and anything else relying on moon products to be built. The risks involved in pushing prices of everything up, not high enough compared to the overall impact it may have. This has got to be good for CCP as it won't take long before you will need a plex in hand to buy your next T2 cruiser.
What happens to the siphoned goo?? Unless you have a big siphoning operation (several hundred siphons and a JF) is it worth hauling to market, 1200m of moon goo is hardly worth running the gauntlet from nul to empire to sell it and of course while your running off to market with your siphoned goo, who is watching your siphons to make sure some random traveller doesn't find them and steal what your stealing?
|
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 14:54:00 -
[1029] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Tzar Sinak wrote:I do not think I am understanding this correctly.
I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away? POS guns are crap and even small ones take several seconds to lock anything. Warp disruption batteries take a lot longer thanks to a low (36mm) scan res. On top of that there's a random delay before they start shooting. You'll have no problem flying in, dropping one and leaving, or flying in, looting one and leaving, before you're in any danger from the POS, even if it's manned. So one possible adjustment, if siphons prove to be Too Powerful, would be to make ships dropping or harvesting siphons Sit Perfectly Still for Long Enough? |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:02:00 -
[1030] - Quote
If you are so worried about syphons exploiting lowsec little alliances and players, simply ban them from lowsec like it happens with bubbles and bombs
Revolutionary idea
PS Well, in fact is a good damn idea |
|
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:04:00 -
[1031] - Quote
Tiye Q wrote:Kismeteer wrote:MeBiatch wrote:this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.
the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy. Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you. Not sure what I find more comical. The admission of a complaint in having to now monitor a passive source of income, or the fact that the CFC/GSF member also states they'll benefit financially, and yet somehow we're all supposed to believe that the CFC/GSF is raising the complaints and flaws in mechanics for the benefit of the greater good of EVE. Simply amazing. Whatever intellectual Kool-Aid you guys are serving to your rank and file, please make sure you patent the formula. Is clear enough: Goons are simply griefing here in the One True Universal Perpetual Meta-Game, Players vs Developers, in which Players try to have fun and Developers try to stop them. Goons use proposed changes -- especially poorly-thought-out changes -- to grief Developers. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:06:00 -
[1032] - Quote
Well, in fact, banning them from lowsec will make lowsec the training ground for pos owners. If you are in nullsec, you should be able to help yourself. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
463
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:13:00 -
[1033] - Quote
Kropotkin wrote:Tiye Q wrote:Kismeteer wrote:MeBiatch wrote:this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.
the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy. Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you. Not sure what I find more comical. The admission of a complaint in having to now monitor a passive source of income, or the fact that the CFC/GSF member also states they'll benefit financially, and yet somehow we're all supposed to believe that the CFC/GSF is raising the complaints and flaws in mechanics for the benefit of the greater good of EVE. Simply amazing. Whatever intellectual Kool-Aid you guys are serving to your rank and file, please make sure you patent the formula. Is clear enough: Goons are simply griefing here in the One True Universal Perpetual Meta-Game, Players vs Developers, in which Players try to have fun and Developers try to stop them. Goons use proposed changes -- especially poorly-thought-out changes -- to grief Developers. We don't grief developers, we kindly and gently correct their misguided and idiotic gameplay development, with a two kilo sledgehammer upside the head that they so helpfully gave us. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:15:00 -
[1034] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Kropotkin wrote:Tiye Q wrote:Kismeteer wrote:MeBiatch wrote:this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.
the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy. Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you. Not sure what I find more comical. The admission of a complaint in having to now monitor a passive source of income, or the fact that the CFC/GSF member also states they'll benefit financially, and yet somehow we're all supposed to believe that the CFC/GSF is raising the complaints and flaws in mechanics for the benefit of the greater good of EVE. Simply amazing. Whatever intellectual Kool-Aid you guys are serving to your rank and file, please make sure you patent the formula. Is clear enough: Goons are simply griefing here in the One True Universal Perpetual Meta-Game, Players vs Developers, in which Players try to have fun and Developers try to stop them. Goons use proposed changes -- especially poorly-thought-out changes -- to grief Developers. We don't grief developers, we kindly and gently correct their misguided and idiotic gameplay development, with a two kilo sledgehammer upside the head that they so helpfully gave us.
In other words, you are telling developers how they should manage their own game. Amazing, one day Goons will be the CEOs of CCP |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:17:00 -
[1035] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:... The system itself could be neat when siphon costs aren't a rounding error, but the system is poorly balanced as it is because there's no cost to losing a siphon. ... I wonder: Are maybe CCP trying to be crazy like fox, set low initial price to stimulate initial deployment transient, then later jack price up?
But do CCP have control of price? I think yes: siphon is T1, so All They Have To Do Is Just jack up the minerals-needed-to-build, no? |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
369
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:19:00 -
[1036] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Tippia wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Let me know what you think. I think I still want to know what the design goal behind making the API lie is. Because the information it would provide would render this wonderful addition to the game pointless. I guess why log into the game and play it when API program can play it for you right?...
yahh i heard API Programmes can log your applicable character in, get in the correct ship/POS gun, lock and fire on the siphon and then scoop the loot and return it to the pos (in the CHA or whatever). Not entirely sure what programmes u guys in NCdot are using, maybe the people in Team Security needs to review your subscriptions.
Marlona Sky wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think. Can you add a limit on the number of POS you can maintain too?... .
yahh cause u know... everyone has personal pos's currently dont they? ohh wait no they dont, all pos's are anchored and onlined for their entire corp (whether you're in a 1 man corp or not) |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:23:00 -
[1037] - Quote
Kropotkin wrote:mynnna wrote:Tzar Sinak wrote:I do not think I am understanding this correctly.
I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away? POS guns are crap and even small ones take several seconds to lock anything. Warp disruption batteries take a lot longer thanks to a low (36mm) scan res. On top of that there's a random delay before they start shooting. You'll have no problem flying in, dropping one and leaving, or flying in, looting one and leaving, before you're in any danger from the POS, even if it's manned. So one possible adjustment, if siphons prove to be Too Powerful, would be to make ships dropping or harvesting siphons Sit Perfectly Still for Long Enough? Pos siphons have no anchoring or onlining time. You fly to 50k of the pos, launch siphon and warp off, the siphon then automatically starts its cycle time and begins to fill. At the given time you warp back to your bookmarked siphon, empty it and warp off. As stated, even with a pos gunner present you are only at risk if you hang around too long as lock times for pos modules are just too slow to be of value. But if there is a pos gunner present there is a good chance your siphon has been destroyed so emptying it is not a problem.
|
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:31:00 -
[1038] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:ahh cause u know... everyone has personal pos's currently dont they? ohh wait no they dont, all pos's are anchored and onlined for their entire corp (whether you're in a 1 man corp or not)
Syphons are available to whoever passes by. The syphon is not really yours either. |
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
840
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:37:00 -
[1039] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Harry Forever wrote:Aryth wrote:Yeah, the cost isn't balanced at all. These things will pay for itself (including waste) in the time a regular tower owner sleeps. It is one thing if a tower owner can reasonably find it in the time that it might equate to a loss for the placer greater than the profit gained. It is quite another if you can just mass spray them cross entire portions of EVE and be virtually assured of payback.
The cost should not be balanced at a few hours and probably should be set at at least 12-18 hours. Is that really reasonable to require every tower owner to check their tower 3 times a day? This is exactly why skill queues were implemented and that was far less of a burden.
Balance the cost much higher. 10m that gets returned in just 2-5 hours is silly and not remotely balanced and is only going to mean mass spraying across EVE and end up as spam more than interaction.
nice those bitter goon tears, please go on... Ah Harry Forever, confusing our tears of mirth with bitter tears. CCP is going to hand everyone the greatist griefing tool EVE has seen since remote doomsdays, and he thinks we are crying bitter tears. Seriously it's like we are Cassandra, blessed with the power of prophecy, yet cursed with no one believing our prophecy.
yea use it on your own POS, lol... you never leave your systems everybody knows that
all you guys do is crying, crying about your stolen moon goo, crying about the somer blink stuff, crying about your cynos, man you are a bunch of babies... boohoo... ... |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:39:00 -
[1040] - Quote
Quote:CCP SoniClover wrote:
Let me know what you think.
I think it should be better if this version of siphon will be limited at "siphoning" from moon miners only, for the start at least; leave reactions for version 2 if there are more that one moon miner on a pos it should steal alternately from each of them;
also limiting 5/player is way too low, more like 20 should be the limit if you really think we should have one |
|
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
60
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:41:00 -
[1041] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:If you are so worried about syphons exploiting lowsec little alliances and players, simply ban them from lowsec like it happens with bubbles and bombs
Revolutionary idea
PS Well, in fact is a good damn idea except ccp hs no intention of limiting them to just null sec nor frankly the player feedback either cause afaik they did not run this by the CSM either before they just up and did this. Low sec is the bastard child of ccp and they enjoy ******* with anyone who tries to operate in it. <Munnkeh> i'm gonna use that excuse if i ever kill someone. "look, if you keep meeting ppl, it's bound to happen eventually" http://i.imgur.com/76pQ9.jpg |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
463
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 15:42:00 -
[1042] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Falin Whalen wrote:We don't grief developers, we kindly and gently correct their misguided and idiotic gameplay development, with a two kilo sledgehammer upside the head that they so helpfully gave us. In other words, you are telling developers how they should manage their own game. Amazing, one day Goons will be the CEOs of CCP No, you have it wrong, We tell developers that some of the ideas that they have are hugely exploitable by those who have figured out the mechanics behind them. If they don't head our words and implement it anyway...well we have no choice but to exploit the hell out of the new feature to our advantage. Untill CCP gets wise and patches out the imbalanced, broken, mechanic to be more ballanced and less broken.
See, by being utter rat bastards, and exploiting/taking advantage of broken mechanics/features, we make the game more ballanced and less exploitable by all.
You are welcome. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1401
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 16:00:00 -
[1043] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Well, in fact, banning them from lowsec will make lowsec the training ground for pos owners. If you are in nullsec, you should be able to help yourself.
right and all those high value moons in low sec should then go to null right? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4878
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 16:09:00 -
[1044] - Quote
Kropotkin wrote:Tiye Q wrote:Kismeteer wrote:MeBiatch wrote:this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.
the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy. Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you. Not sure what I find more comical. The admission of a complaint in having to now monitor a passive source of income, or the fact that the CFC/GSF member also states they'll benefit financially, and yet somehow we're all supposed to believe that the CFC/GSF is raising the complaints and flaws in mechanics for the benefit of the greater good of EVE. Simply amazing. Whatever intellectual Kool-Aid you guys are serving to your rank and file, please make sure you patent the formula. Is clear enough: Goons are simply griefing here in the One True Universal Perpetual Meta-Game, Players vs Developers, in which Players try to have fun and Developers try to stop them. Goons use proposed changes -- especially poorly-thought-out changes -- to grief Developers. You have to leave the matrix and gank the architect of the whole system
Or, just make money for them and get special scorpions.... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
916
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 16:17:00 -
[1045] - Quote
10 mill is too expensive for these siphons. The ones planted at valuable moons will just get blown up, while the ones planted at worthless moons won't run a profit, because it'll never be worth a pilot's time taking what they siphon.
They need to be cheaper to see significant use. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4878
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 16:19:00 -
[1046] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:10 mill is too expensive for these siphons. The ones planted at valuable moons will just get blown up, while the ones planted at worthless moons won't run a profit, because it'll never be worth a pilot's time taking what they siphon.
They need to be cheaper to see significant use. I agree. If anything drop it down significantly and then raise if it is overused
(It won't be overpowered, i promise, only goons will cry more) There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1153
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 16:24:00 -
[1047] - Quote
Is this were I park my freighters to collect tears from the boring nullbears? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
101
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 16:51:00 -
[1048] - Quote
Jeanne Hilanen wrote:Weaselior wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote: With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?
Oh... right...
Yes. We do. Those thousands of people are never on grid with a mining pos because they have no reason to be. That's my point. Those thousands of people, using our space, do not actually provide any meaningful advantage over an alt left logged out in the tower. What a bunch of bullshit. it takes less than a minute to dscan check a system. If you have people actually LIVING in a system, you can very quickly spot these
+1
Seriously, if an alliance of hundreds or thousands of players can't be bothered to put 1 alliance character in each system they own once every 3-4 hours, you deserve to lose the goo.
It takes seconds to scan and move on (especially with the warp changes), and you only have to get within 14AU to know if they're there.
A single char could check an entire region's moons in under 30 minutes. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:02:00 -
[1049] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:
Seriously, if an alliance of hundreds or thousands of players can't be bothered to put 1 alliance character in each system they own once every 3-4 hours, you deserve to lose the goo.
It takes seconds to scan and move on (especially with the warp changes), and you only have to get within 14AU to know if they're there.
A single char could check an entire region's moons in under 30 minutes.
"but... but... but we wanna pevepee...." |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1272
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:03:00 -
[1050] - Quote
Gospadin wrote: Seriously, if an alliance of hundreds or thousands of players can't be bothered to put 1 alliance character in each system they own once every 3-4 hours, you deserve to lose the goo.
It takes seconds to scan and move on (especially with the warp changes), and you only have to get within 14AU to know if they're there.
A single char could check an entire region's moons in under 30 minutes.
So what about a smaller tz-centric alliance that holds moons in low/npc null?
Why should the bar be raised to 24/7 coverage of moons? Why do you want them to recruit more people in order to be successful? |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4878
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:05:00 -
[1051] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Gospadin wrote: Seriously, if an alliance of hundreds or thousands of players can't be bothered to put 1 alliance character in each system they own once every 3-4 hours, you deserve to lose the goo.
It takes seconds to scan and move on (especially with the warp changes), and you only have to get within 14AU to know if they're there.
A single char could check an entire region's moons in under 30 minutes.
So what about a smaller tz-centric alliance that holds moons in low/npc null? Why should the bar be raised to 24/7 coverage of moons? Why do you want them to recruit more people in order to be successful? Yeah. Blobbers are the best.
Wait, ... doesn't that sound like PL's tech moon holdings in lowsec... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
28
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:12:00 -
[1052] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:Jeanne Hilanen wrote:Weaselior wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote: With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?
Oh... right...
Yes. We do. Those thousands of people are never on grid with a mining pos because they have no reason to be. That's my point. Those thousands of people, using our space, do not actually provide any meaningful advantage over an alt left logged out in the tower. What a bunch of bullshit. it takes less than a minute to dscan check a system. If you have people actually LIVING in a system, you can very quickly spot these +1 Seriously, if an alliance of hundreds or thousands of players can't be bothered to put 1 alliance character in each system they own once every 3-4 hours, you deserve to lose the goo. It takes seconds to scan and move on (especially with the warp changes), and you only have to get within 14AU to know if they're there. A single char could check an entire region's moons in under 30 minutes.
That is one pathetically small region with tiny solar systems in it. Where is this mythical region of space? It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1272
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:17:00 -
[1053] - Quote
This mechanic will NOT generate fights, because if you are going to have a straight up brawl on a POS (where the siphons are planted) you should bring enough people to tank it, and to defang it. At that point, why wouldn't you just RF the pos and come back later to take it for real? The only fight you're getting out of this is the police action after the fact to shoot a structure (oh boy!).
If anything, it will take fights away because now you're not going to need to RF moons, you just need to make it not worth their time or effort to mine anymore by spamming siphons.
I don't think that the ideal way to conduct war is to spam structures until one side gets bored and gives up. It should be about actually fighting your enemy. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:21:00 -
[1054] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Gospadin wrote: Seriously, if an alliance of hundreds or thousands of players can't be bothered to put 1 alliance character in each system they own once every 3-4 hours, you deserve to lose the goo.
It takes seconds to scan and move on (especially with the warp changes), and you only have to get within 14AU to know if they're there.
A single char could check an entire region's moons in under 30 minutes.
So what about a smaller tz-centric alliance that holds moons in low/npc null? Why should the bar be raised to 24/7 coverage of moons? Why do you want them to recruit more people in order to be successful?
can you name one of those smaller tz-centric alliance that holds any amounts of R64? i won't be worried about those, they are much more active and would be able to watch theyr home much better then some big alliances; it's not like they will lose the moons, really, they will lose some income, life is hard, eve is not fair... they will move on... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4878
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:24:00 -
[1055] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Gospadin wrote:Jeanne Hilanen wrote:Weaselior wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote: With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?
Oh... right...
Yes. We do. Those thousands of people are never on grid with a mining pos because they have no reason to be. That's my point. Those thousands of people, using our space, do not actually provide any meaningful advantage over an alt left logged out in the tower. What a bunch of bullshit. it takes less than a minute to dscan check a system. If you have people actually LIVING in a system, you can very quickly spot these +1 Seriously, if an alliance of hundreds or thousands of players can't be bothered to put 1 alliance character in each system they own once every 3-4 hours, you deserve to lose the goo. It takes seconds to scan and move on (especially with the warp changes), and you only have to get within 14AU to know if they're there. A single char could check an entire region's moons in under 30 minutes. That is one pathetically small region with tiny solar systems in it. Where is this mythical region of space? In the Strawman Empire
There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4878
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:26:00 -
[1056] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:I don't think that the ideal way to conduct war is to spam structures until one side gets bored and gives up. It should be about actually fighting your enemy. Is this about your gangs chasing around siegefleets in Fountain? Was that fun and engaging for you?
It was for us. Very much so. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4878
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:28:00 -
[1057] - Quote
gascanu wrote:EI Digin wrote:Gospadin wrote: Seriously, if an alliance of hundreds or thousands of players can't be bothered to put 1 alliance character in each system they own once every 3-4 hours, you deserve to lose the goo.
It takes seconds to scan and move on (especially with the warp changes), and you only have to get within 14AU to know if they're there.
A single char could check an entire region's moons in under 30 minutes.
So what about a smaller tz-centric alliance that holds moons in low/npc null? Why should the bar be raised to 24/7 coverage of moons? Why do you want them to recruit more people in order to be successful? can you name one of those smaller tz-centric alliance that holds any amounts of R64? i won't be worried about those, they are much more active and would be able to watch theyr home much better then some big alliances; it's not like they will lose the moons, really, they will lose some income, life is hard, eve is not fair... they will move on... They're tz-centric, so they can watch their autz really well?
Huh, I should've known. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
463
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:36:00 -
[1058] - Quote
Highsec pubbie dreams are going to go HORRIBLY RIGHT. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
36
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:51:00 -
[1059] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:gascanu wrote:EI Digin wrote:Gospadin wrote: Seriously, if an alliance of hundreds or thousands of players can't be bothered to put 1 alliance character in each system they own once every 3-4 hours, you deserve to lose the goo.
It takes seconds to scan and move on (especially with the warp changes), and you only have to get within 14AU to know if they're there.
A single char could check an entire region's moons in under 30 minutes.
So what about a smaller tz-centric alliance that holds moons in low/npc null? Why should the bar be raised to 24/7 coverage of moons? Why do you want them to recruit more people in order to be successful? can you name one of those smaller tz-centric alliance that holds any amounts of R64? i won't be worried about those, they are much more active and would be able to watch theyr home much better then some big alliances; it's not like they will lose the moons, really, they will lose some income, life is hard, eve is not fair... they will move on... They're tz-centric, so they can watch their autz really well? Huh, I should've known. do you see any member of those "tz-centric" alliances complaining here on this forum about it? really, your worries for those small entitys are touching my heart , but like i've stated before, i'm sure they'll adapt and survive |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1272
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 17:59:00 -
[1060] - Quote
gascanu wrote:do you see any member of those "tz-centric" alliances complaining here on this forum about it? really, your worries for those small entitys are touching my heart , but like i've stated before, i'm sure they'll adapt and survive
Well,
yes. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4880
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:01:00 -
[1061] - Quote
Nulli secunda counts as timezone centric huh... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4880
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:18:00 -
[1062] - Quote
No honor among major alliances - siphon units in rubicon There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:20:00 -
[1063] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:... man i hate timers... all they lead to is blob fights... please ccp do every thing you can to get rid of timers But how else to synchronize attacker and defender in real-world-time?
Perhaps you would like something like WormHole tonnage limits for entry into vicinity of POSs? Seems too easy to work around or exploit, though. (Thinking back to Rooks-and-Kings video "Clarion Call 3: The Black Fortress"...) |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4880
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:24:00 -
[1064] - Quote
Kropotkin wrote:MeBiatch wrote:... man i hate timers... all they lead to is blob fights... please ccp do every thing you can to get rid of timers But how else to synchronize attacker and defender in real-world-time? Don't.
Just endless players killing structures and players dropping more structures, like siphons. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:27:00 -
[1065] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:This will be mind numbingly boring and a time sink with little actual payoff for the pilots participating. The money doesn't matter all that much, but endless, pointless repetition doesn't generally sit well with most players outside of high sec. I think you underestimate just how much goons enjoy doing things purely for the sake of making someone else miserable. The purpose of organization is to make the strengths of the individual members productive, and their weaknesses irrelevant. -- Peter Drucker, The Effective Executive
One genius of Goon-Leaders is to make individual's sociopathic behavior productive for organization-as-whole. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4880
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:30:00 -
[1066] - Quote
Kropotkin wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:This will be mind numbingly boring and a time sink with little actual payoff for the pilots participating. The money doesn't matter all that much, but endless, pointless repetition doesn't generally sit well with most players outside of high sec. I think you underestimate just how much goons enjoy doing things purely for the sake of making someone else miserable. The purpose of organization is to make the strengths of the individual members productive, and their weaknesses irrelevant. -- Peter Drucker, The Effective ExecutiveOne genius of Goon-Leaders is to make individual's sociopathic behavior productive for organization-as-whole. Torp bombering structures in fountain and delve for multiple weeks. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:42:00 -
[1067] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:... I wonder if it would be worth having these things pop and drop a jetcan when they're full, so that you have two hours to pick up the loot before it goes bye-bye. That would create an implicit timer--either the ninja siphoner comes to empty the siphon out before it's full so that it doesn't pop, or they have two hours after it fills up to collect their loot before it vanishes--assuming that someone else hasn't helped themselves to it, of course.
Someone dropping them as an income-denying tactic wouldn't care either way, of course. But they would still have to either tend them or come back to drop new ones every so often if they wanted to keep the income denial up. Another possibility near this suggestion in Game-design-space: give siphon finite lifetime renewable by repairing-up.
Reping-up ship must stay relatively nearby for fairly long time, giving siphoned-from player(s) some time to detect and attack?
And reping ship must sacrifice warload for reping capability.
Perhaps POS module can be installed to warn of nearby reping?
I suppose it would be TOS violation for POS-keeper to have cloaked alt at station, with player AFK but running screen-scraping software that feeds video-analysis automation that detects intrusions and batphones defense force? |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
695
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:45:00 -
[1068] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Varius Xeral wrote:I will summarize this entire thread with a slightly hyperbolic metaphor:
CCP: We will create a New Utopia by employing arm-banded thugs to control everyone for their own good. The Unwashed Eve Masses: Ooooh, a New Utopia. That sounds great. A Few of Us: What was that arm-banded thugs part again?
Forest, trees, etc. Aren't we already controlled by arm-banded thugs? Specially in nullsec
What, do you rent from Evoke? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4880
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:50:00 -
[1069] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:Varius Xeral wrote:I will summarize this entire thread with a slightly hyperbolic metaphor:
CCP: We will create a New Utopia by employing arm-banded thugs to control everyone for their own good. The Unwashed Eve Masses: Ooooh, a New Utopia. That sounds great. A Few of Us: What was that arm-banded thugs part again?
Forest, trees, etc. Aren't we already controlled by arm-banded thugs? Specially in nullsec What, do you rent from Evoke? I thought they died? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4880
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:51:00 -
[1070] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:... I wonder if it would be worth having these things pop and drop a jetcan when they're full, so that you have two hours to pick up the loot before it goes bye-bye. That would create an implicit timer--either the ninja siphoner comes to empty the siphon out before it's full so that it doesn't pop, or they have two hours after it fills up to collect their loot before it vanishes--assuming that someone else hasn't helped themselves to it, of course.
Someone dropping them as an income-denying tactic wouldn't care either way, of course. But they would still have to either tend them or come back to drop new ones every so often if they wanted to keep the income denial up. Nope, it's better. Instead of stopping when full they keep on pulling more.
I support this. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
602
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 18:52:00 -
[1071] - Quote
CCP,
You'll need to re-evaluate the role that this module plays, along with its functions. As it is now, it will be more of a grief play tool than anything else. I'm not discrediting the module itself, just the way it's been implemented. I can easily see these things being spammed everywhere simply because "I can" and "for the lulz", with minimal repercussions.
Anyone who thinks this will affect larger alliances more than small corps is, IMO, wrong. Even small corps operating in lo sec will feel a greater burden, because they have less of a fallback cushion during a POS shutdown.
There simply needs to be more repercussion or risk to spamming these things about. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4881
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 19:02:00 -
[1072] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:CCP,
You'll need to re-evaluate the role that this module plays, along with its functions. As it is now, it will be more of a grief play tool than anything else. I'm not discrediting the module itself, just the way it's been implemented. I can easily see these things being spammed everywhere simply because "I can" and "for the lulz", with minimal repercussions.
Anyone who thinks this will affect larger alliances more than small corps is, IMO, wrong. Even small corps operating in lo sec will feel a greater burden, because they have less of a fallback cushion during a POS shutdown.
There simply needs to be more repercussion or risk to spamming these things about. goon alt There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Jimmy Farrere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 19:08:00 -
[1073] - Quote
Huh, I already solved all this 2 pages ago.
Make the units bigger.
Next question please. |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 19:16:00 -
[1074] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:You know what? This is going to be awesome. Or will it be ... ?? |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
779
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 19:17:00 -
[1075] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:10 mill is too expensive for these siphons. The ones planted at valuable moons will just get blown up, while the ones planted at worthless moons won't run a profit, because it'll never be worth a pilot's time taking what they siphon.
They need to be cheaper to see significant use.
I'm fairly spacepoor for a goon and even I am planning on dropping at least half a billion on these if they are released as currently proposed just to screw with random pubbie shitlords, and I absolutely do not care if I ever get a drop of moon goo from them. In fact, I'm hoping some opportunistic scrubs will empty them for me. Maybe I'll give the locations to some randomly selected new players in starter systems just to get them going into low/null early on. So yes, make these cheaper.
|
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 19:29:00 -
[1076] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:Well, in fact, banning them from lowsec will make lowsec the training ground for pos owners. If you are in nullsec, you should be able to help yourself. right and all those high value moons in low sec should then go to null right?
it seems fair in exchange of not having syphons. Just low to medium value moons in lowsec. If you wan't more profits, either you join a big alliance in null or steal from them |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4882
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 19:42:00 -
[1077] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Gypsio III wrote:10 mill is too expensive for these siphons. The ones planted at valuable moons will just get blown up, while the ones planted at worthless moons won't run a profit, because it'll never be worth a pilot's time taking what they siphon.
They need to be cheaper to see significant use. I'm fairly spacepoor for a goon and even I am planning on dropping at least half a billion on these if they are released as currently proposed just to screw with random pubbie shitlords, and I absolutely do not care if I ever get a drop of moon goo from them. In fact, I'm hoping some opportunistic scrubs will empty them for me. Maybe I'll give the locations to some randomly selected new players in starter systems just to get them going into low/null early on. So yes, make these cheaper. But as a goon you are the 1% There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
779
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 19:53:00 -
[1078] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Gypsio III wrote:10 mill is too expensive for these siphons. The ones planted at valuable moons will just get blown up, while the ones planted at worthless moons won't run a profit, because it'll never be worth a pilot's time taking what they siphon.
They need to be cheaper to see significant use. I'm fairly spacepoor for a goon and even I am planning on dropping at least half a billion on these if they are released as currently proposed just to screw with random pubbie shitlords, and I absolutely do not care if I ever get a drop of moon goo from them. In fact, I'm hoping some opportunistic scrubs will empty them for me. Maybe I'll give the locations to some randomly selected new players in starter systems just to get them going into low/null early on. So yes, make these cheaper. But as a goon you are the 1%
As a goon, I'm supposed to be crying about these things, according to the posters here, but I really am starting to get excited about setting up a lowsec moon goo scavenger hunt for random new players. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4882
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 20:02:00 -
[1079] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Gypsio III wrote:10 mill is too expensive for these siphons. The ones planted at valuable moons will just get blown up, while the ones planted at worthless moons won't run a profit, because it'll never be worth a pilot's time taking what they siphon.
They need to be cheaper to see significant use. I'm fairly spacepoor for a goon and even I am planning on dropping at least half a billion on these if they are released as currently proposed just to screw with random pubbie shitlords, and I absolutely do not care if I ever get a drop of moon goo from them. In fact, I'm hoping some opportunistic scrubs will empty them for me. Maybe I'll give the locations to some randomly selected new players in starter systems just to get them going into low/null early on. So yes, make these cheaper. But as a goon you are the 1% As a goon, I'm supposed to be crying about these things, according to the posters here, but I really am starting to get excited about setting up a lowsec moon goo scavenger hunt for random new players. these are your tears, right there There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 20:06:00 -
[1080] - Quote
Tippia wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Change is good. Not really, no. Good change is good. Bad changes, such as making the data export not export data, on the other hand is not good.
Quote:Change is not Reform! -- John Randolph of Roanoke, to the Virginia Convention of 1829 |
|
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 20:19:00 -
[1081] - Quote
The problem is, aside from CCP, who is here in possesion of the universal truth to say what changes are good or bad? Everyody here have material interests in this changes (or the absence of changes)
Having a conflict like this between players pro and anti-change should be resolved by dropping the expansion like that and see what happens.
PS (Patch notes: Because f.....k y....u) |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
917
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 20:29:00 -
[1082] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Gypsio III wrote:10 mill is too expensive for these siphons. The ones planted at valuable moons will just get blown up, while the ones planted at worthless moons won't run a profit, because it'll never be worth a pilot's time taking what they siphon.
They need to be cheaper to see significant use. I'm fairly spacepoor for a goon and even I am planning on dropping at least half a billion on these if they are released as currently proposed just to screw with random pubbie shitlords, and I absolutely do not care if I ever get a drop of moon goo from them. In fact, I'm hoping some opportunistic scrubs will empty them for me. Maybe I'll give the locations to some randomly selected new players in starter systems just to get them going into low/null early on. So yes, make these cheaper.
If you drop two per POS, and visit a POS every minute, this will take you about 173,000 years. not including DT, of course. I applaud your commitment!
Giving the locations to newbies is a good idea though. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 20:34:00 -
[1083] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Gypsio III wrote:10 mill is too expensive for these siphons. The ones planted at valuable moons will just get blown up, while the ones planted at worthless moons won't run a profit, because it'll never be worth a pilot's time taking what they siphon.
They need to be cheaper to see significant use. I'm fairly spacepoor for a goon and even I am planning on dropping at least half a billion on these if they are released as currently proposed just to screw with random pubbie shitlords, and I absolutely do not care if I ever get a drop of moon goo from them. In fact, I'm hoping some opportunistic scrubs will empty them for me. Maybe I'll give the locations to some randomly selected new players in starter systems just to get them going into low/null early on. So yes, make these cheaper. If you drop two per POS, and visit a POS every minute, this will take you about 173,000 years. not including DT, of course. I applaud your commitment! Giving the locations to newbies is a good idea though. Half a billion isk buys 50 of these things so you need to check either your math or your reading comprehension.
|
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
917
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 20:47:00 -
[1084] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Gypsio III wrote:10 mill is too expensive for these siphons. The ones planted at valuable moons will just get blown up, while the ones planted at worthless moons won't run a profit, because it'll never be worth a pilot's time taking what they siphon.
They need to be cheaper to see significant use. I'm fairly spacepoor for a goon and even I am planning on dropping at least half a billion on these if they are released as currently proposed just to screw with random pubbie shitlords, and I absolutely do not care if I ever get a drop of moon goo from them. In fact, I'm hoping some opportunistic scrubs will empty them for me. Maybe I'll give the locations to some randomly selected new players in starter systems just to get them going into low/null early on. So yes, make these cheaper. If you drop two per POS, and visit a POS every minute, this will take you about 173,000 years. not including DT, of course. I applaud your commitment! Giving the locations to newbies is a good idea though. Half a billion isk buys 50 of these things so you need to check either your math or your reading comprehension.
Reading comp. pls.
I don't think 50 of them really matters, tbh. They'll just get blown up, particularly those dropped soon after release. You'll have to keep dropping them day after day. I'm a big fan of griefing, but I prefer not to do it to myself. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 20:51:00 -
[1085] - Quote
It's enough to completely shut down 25 moons, and I'm just one bored poor guy. And I was responding to someone complaining that they will be too expensive. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4882
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 20:58:00 -
[1086] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:It's enough to completely shut down 25 moons, and I'm just one bored poor guy. And I was responding to someone complaining that they will be too expensive.
Oh, a ninja edit. My point was, someone with actual resources will be able to do a lot with them at the proposed price.
Still gonna do this, though. Harry Forever will shut down our towers
he wants you to feel it There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
273
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 21:11:00 -
[1087] - Quote
Well I do hope the Goonies little market manipulation thing actually works.This is just Caldari ice interdiction all over again - "ZOMG we will keel ur Mackinomnomnoms!"... *does nothing*.. prices still spike temporarily. Will make my stack of Marauders and Blops a bit more profitable. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
917
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 21:15:00 -
[1088] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Oh, a ninja edit. My point was, someone with actual resources will be able to do a lot with them at the proposed price.
Oh, absolutely, and I fully appreciate that it's in the interest of the dominant moonholder to interfere with other entities' moons. But to do so will take a lot of effort, dropping siphons day after day, and I don't think it's a sensible use of a player's time. There'll be a big spike of interest just after introduction, but to keep it up week after week? I'm not convinced... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4882
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 21:37:00 -
[1089] - Quote
These goon tears are the best. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 21:42:00 -
[1090] - Quote
"You won't really use these to grief people." is basically a triple dog dare.
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4885
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 22:37:00 -
[1091] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:"You won't really use these to grief people." is basically a triple dog dare. Remember that shooting a region's worth of sov structures was also supposed to break our backs, from the great Gevlon Goblin There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Ereshgikal
Pigs and Sows
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 22:39:00 -
[1092] - Quote
Close thread please. Just same 4 characters repeating what they said 5 posts ago.
Edit: Or you can implement a proper "ignore" function on these #&!"#-ñ& forums. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
463
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 22:44:00 -
[1093] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:"You won't really use these to grief people." is basically a triple dog dare.
You don't understand, WE are not supposed to use these to grief others, others are supposed to use this on Goons to grief us, because we are big meanies and bad people, and have all the moons and we won't share. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Fix Lag
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
583
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 23:01:00 -
[1094] - Quote
Ereshgikal wrote:Close thread please. Just same 4 characters repeating what they said 5 posts ago.
Edit: Or you can implement a proper "ignore" function on these #&!"#-ñ& forums.
get out |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
782
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 23:01:00 -
[1095] - Quote
We are the goons The goons who have moons We are the goons The goons who have moons
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4885
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 23:42:00 -
[1096] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:"You won't really use these to grief people." is basically a triple dog dare.
You don't understand, WE are not supposed to use these to grief others, others are supposed to use this on Goons to grief us, because we are big meanies and bad people, and have all the moons and we won't share. Yep. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 00:59:00 -
[1097] - Quote
Fix Lag wrote:Ereshgikal wrote:Close thread please. Just same 4 characters repeating what they said 5 posts ago.
Edit: Or you can implement a proper "ignore" function on these #&!"#-ñ& forums. get out
And please play outside, the adults are conversing with the Mormon Missionaries. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
783
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 01:37:00 -
[1098] - Quote
hey guys please close this thread i'm tired of reading it in fact just turn off the whole internet i'm stick of all of it thanks |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 01:41:00 -
[1099] - Quote
So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..
Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4381
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 02:01:00 -
[1100] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..
Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve. By siphons being a real mechanic in the game, means it will create player traffic. This means the opportunity for combat increases. Any POS operators that rely on some 3rd party tool to play the game for them will be the ones to suffer the most. Any groups that actually inhabit the space they have POS in will be just fine as they will have eyes in the system to see when a siphon is deployed.
I can't believe how heavily some groups rely on programs to play the game for them and go out of their way to make sure AFK game play and mechanics remain a thing for EVE. Pathetic. . |
|
Ereshgikal
Pigs and Sows
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 02:26:00 -
[1101] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Fix Lag wrote:Ereshgikal wrote:Close thread please. Just same 4 characters repeating what they said 5 posts ago.
Edit: Or you can implement a proper "ignore" function on these #&!"#-ñ& forums. get out And please play outside, the adults are conversing with the Mormon Missionaries.
Thank you for pointing out one of the reasons why Eve-O forums are shite.
|
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 02:31:00 -
[1102] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..
Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve. By siphons being a real mechanic in the game, means it will create player traffic. This means the opportunity for combat increases. Any POS operators that rely on some 3rd party tool to play the game for them will be the ones to suffer the most. Any groups that actually inhabit the space they have POS in will be just fine as they will have eyes in the system to see when a siphon is deployed. I can't believe how heavily some groups rely on programs to play the game for them and go out of their way to make sure AFK game play and mechanics remain a thing for EVE. Pathetic. So what your saying, is run a small moon ming operation spread over a couple of systems i should do nothing but sit at the pos's 24/7 to guard them against thieves?? I run multiple toons a dedicated pos bunny and pvp toons, so what i need to do is not use my pvp toons for pvp as i am now expected to sit in a pos all day waiting for a siphon to be placed.
In fact what i will do is simply shut down the pos's as the required time vs income is no longer viable.. Not all pos setups make billions a month, some (like mine) generate enough income to enable me to pvp, if i have to commit more time to the pos's it is no longer viable because that's not how i want to play. Even with external programs I login to my pos's every day, to fuel them, move product around etc. It is by no means a passive income and requires upkeep. Result, the big players in moon mining get just a little more income due to my product no longer being there.
Do you use jabber or TS to enhance your game play?? Would you be happy to have them taken away so you need to sit in chat all day watching for fleets to go up instead of getting a ping? Do you use Evemon or something similar to monitor skill cues and how would you feel about the API not giving correct information and you end up with empty skill cues? Not everyone can be online every day so rely on external programs to make sure their chosen style of play is being maintained.
|
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 02:31:00 -
[1103] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..
Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve. By siphons being a real mechanic in the game, means it will create player traffic. This means the opportunity for combat increases. Any POS operators that rely on some 3rd party tool to play the game for them will be the ones to suffer the most. Any groups that actually inhabit the space they have POS in will be just fine as they will have eyes in the system to see when a siphon is deployed. I can't believe how heavily some groups rely on programs to play the game for them and go out of their way to make sure AFK game play and mechanics remain a thing for EVE. Pathetic.
Except the siphon griefers will be in nulli interceptors or stabbed blockade runners or cloaky recons, generating rather indifferent volumes of combat. I also love they way you seem to think moon mining is AFK. I reckon a survey on player burn out in Eve would show two groups with the highest level of burn out being CEOs and POS monkeys, with FCs possibly being up there as well.
I also find it ironic that a senior figure in NC., which has substantially outsourced the act living its own space, i.e. has gone beyond being AFK in its own space, is chastising people for running POS, which it thinks is AFK. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 02:33:00 -
[1104] - Quote
Ereshgikal wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Fix Lag wrote:Ereshgikal wrote:Close thread please. Just same 4 characters repeating what they said 5 posts ago.
Edit: Or you can implement a proper "ignore" function on these #&!"#-ñ& forums. get out And please play outside, the adults are conversing with the Mormon Missionaries. Thank you for pointing out one of the reasons why Eve-O forums are shite.
Eve-O forums aren't that bad, I have seen worse, no I won't link, I am not that terrible a human being. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4885
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 02:49:00 -
[1105] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..
Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve. Lies.
Goon alt, goon tears. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4885
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 02:53:00 -
[1106] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..
Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve. By siphons being a real mechanic in the game, means it will create player traffic. This means the opportunity for combat increases. Any POS operators that rely on some 3rd party tool to play the game for them will be the ones to suffer the most. Any groups that actually inhabit the space they have POS in will be just fine as they will have eyes in the system to see when a siphon is deployed. I can't believe how heavily some groups rely on programs to play the game for them and go out of their way to make sure AFK game play and mechanics remain a thing for EVE. Pathetic. Except the siphon griefers will be in nulli interceptors or stabbed blockade runners or cloaky recons, generating rather indifferent volumes of combat. I also love they way you seem to think moon mining is AFK. I reckon a survey on player burn out in Eve would show two groups with the highest level of burn out being CEOs and POS monkeys, with FCs possibly being up there as well. I also find it ironic that a senior figure in NC., which has substantially outsourced the act living its own space, i.e. has gone beyond being AFK in its own space, is chastising people for running POS, which it thinks is AFK. It's ironic, but so are your tears.
HOWEVER, I do hear that, in the name of CONTENT, the CFC's blackops pilots are living in the ncdor renter space. SO it is in fact lived in, and quite active in terms of pvp There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
TimNeilson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 03:08:00 -
[1107] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..
Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve. By siphons being a real mechanic in the game, means it will create player traffic. This means the opportunity for combat increases. Any POS operators that rely on some 3rd party tool to play the game for them will be the ones to suffer the most. Any groups that actually inhabit the space they have POS in will be just fine as they will have eyes in the system to see when a siphon is deployed. I can't believe how heavily some groups rely on programs to play the game for them and go out of their way to make sure AFK game play and mechanics remain a thing for EVE. Pathetic. So what your saying, is run a small moon ming operation spread over a couple of systems i should do nothing but sit at the pos's 24/7 to guard them against thieves?? I run multiple toons a dedicated pos bunny and pvp toons, so what i need to do is not use my pvp toons for pvp as i am now expected to sit in a pos all day waiting for a siphon to be placed. In fact what i will do is simply shut down the pos's as the required time vs income is no longer viable.. Not all pos setups make billions a month, some (like mine) generate enough income to enable me to pvp, if i have to commit more time to the pos's it is no longer viable because that's not how i want to play. Even with external programs I login to my pos's every day, to fuel them, move product around etc. It is by no means a passive income and requires upkeep. Result, the big players in moon mining get just a little more income due to my product no longer being there. Do you use jabber or TS to enhance your game play?? Would you be happy to have them taken away so you need to sit in chat all day watching for fleets to go up instead of getting a ping? Do you use Evemon or something similar to monitor skill cues and how would you feel about the API not giving correct information and you end up with empty skill cues? Not everyone can be online every day so rely on external programs to make sure their chosen style of play is being maintained. NB; very few actually inhabit the systems moon mining is done in as they often having nothing to offer other than moon mining.
In addition to all this, there's no actual reward for checking on your poses constantly, just less of a penalty vs not doing so. Because of the waste mechanic, you're guaranteed a 20% (or 10%, or whatever) loss on whatever is siphoned, so even if you're on the ball and notice that a siphon has been deployed within a few hours of its deployment, you're still being penalized even if you're managing to get everything, just not quite as much. Basically, the siphons as proposed are something like this: "Here's a thing, if you're on the receiving end of it you're either screwed over completely or less screwed over if you're paying attention constantly. Also this API that you can use to make managing your stuff easier? We're gonna make that information untrustworthy and you have to check on all this information ingame anyway if you want to make sure it's accurate, thus defeating the point of having this API in the first place." |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 03:35:00 -
[1108] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..
Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve. Lies. Goon alt, goon tears.
Sorry to disappoint but NOT a goon alt . Just pointing out the obvious, no tears needed.
|
Thorven Sinulf
Quantic Quasars
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 03:37:00 -
[1109] - Quote
Great, so now someone can cheaply siphon off materials from space. What's next, DUST punks raiding my colonies and stealing/destroying stored PI materials, or allowing orbital bombardment against said colonies for jollies? Well, I guess it could be balanced by allowing players to recruit marines and purchase planetary/orbital defenses...never mind, bring it on!! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4886
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 03:37:00 -
[1110] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..
Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve. Lies. Goon alt, goon tears. Sorry to disappoint but NOT a goon alt . Just pointing out the obvious, no tears needed. I'm just supposed to believe that on GD? nuh uh There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 03:44:00 -
[1111] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..
Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve. By siphons being a real mechanic in the game, means it will create player traffic. This means the opportunity for combat increases. Any POS operators that rely on some 3rd party tool to play the game for them will be the ones to suffer the most. Any groups that actually inhabit the space they have POS in will be just fine as they will have eyes in the system to see when a siphon is deployed. I can't believe how heavily some groups rely on programs to play the game for them and go out of their way to make sure AFK game play and mechanics remain a thing for EVE. Pathetic. Except the siphon griefers will be in nulli interceptors or stabbed blockade runners or cloaky recons, generating rather indifferent volumes of combat. I also love they way you seem to think moon mining is AFK. I reckon a survey on player burn out in Eve would show two groups with the highest level of burn out being CEOs and POS monkeys, with FCs possibly being up there as well. I also find it ironic that a senior figure in NC., which has substantially outsourced the act living its own space, i.e. has gone beyond being AFK in its own space, is chastising people for running POS, which it thinks is AFK. It's ironic, but so are your tears. HOWEVER, I do hear that, in the name of CONTENT, the CFC's blackops pilots are living in the ncdor renter space. SO it is in fact lived in, and quite active in terms of pvp
True, but I doubt Marlona would know about that seeing as his AFK from his space.
It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4889
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 08:12:00 -
[1112] - Quote
I'd be interested to know about future application of the "API will lie to you" precedent.
Just think of the possibilities to make you have to check everything in-game. A skill to make your market orders api more accurate ... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Sojobo Otaku
Otaku Industries Space Turtles
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 08:24:00 -
[1113] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:I'd be interested to know about future application of the "API will lie to you" precedent.
Just think of the possibilities to make you have to check everything in-game. A skill to make your market orders api more accurate ... This feature would be completely useless if the API didn't lie. I do however think the size should probably be bigger in the cargohold. If the API didn't lie though then POS owners would instanly know someone is stealing from them and thus the feature would be a total waste of time. |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
387
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 08:40:00 -
[1114] - Quote
Sojobo Otaku wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:I'd be interested to know about future application of the "API will lie to you" precedent.
Just think of the possibilities to make you have to check everything in-game. A skill to make your market orders api more accurate ... This feature would be completely useless if the API didn't lie. I do however think the size should probably be bigger in the cargohold. If the API didn't lie though then POS owners would instanly know someone is stealing from them and thus the feature would be a total waste of time.
Why? Are you scared the POS owners might make you defend your completely AFK ISK siphon? |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 09:21:00 -
[1115] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Sojobo Otaku wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:I'd be interested to know about future application of the "API will lie to you" precedent.
Just think of the possibilities to make you have to check everything in-game. A skill to make your market orders api more accurate ... This feature would be completely useless if the API didn't lie. I do however think the size should probably be bigger in the cargohold. If the API didn't lie though then POS owners would instanly know someone is stealing from them and thus the feature would be a total waste of time. Why? Are you scared the POS owners might make you defend your completely AFK ISK siphon? LOL LOL LOL +1 X3 A goon using logic, you sir have made my day. It was worth getting up this morning for that profound comment. I thank you
|
Chigurh Friendo
Stay Frosty.
9
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 11:48:00 -
[1116] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
This is a poor concept, as it merely punishes those players who don't participate in alt-exploitive multiple-account play. Eve Online already caters far too well to this playstyle in place of encouraging meaningful player interaction... where in most instances multiboxing and alt-based play already represent the optimal course of action.
By imposing a limit, you would constrain space-poor players and small entities whereas large entities would be largely unaffected due to the numerical and alt-based workarounds.
Strongly disapprove. |
BoomBoss
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 12:58:00 -
[1117] - Quote
In other words, faking the assets makes this change on the API makes the Asset API completely useless.
Thank you for making our work on apps even more shittier then it already was. All the hours and hours of work completely ruined by that change. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 12:59:00 -
[1118] - Quote
Thorven Sinulf wrote:Great, so now someone can cheaply siphon off materials from space. What's next, DUST punks raiding my colonies and stealing/destroying stored PI materials, or allowing orbital bombardment against said colonies for jollies? Well, I guess it could be balanced by allowing players to recruit marines and purchase planetary/orbital defenses...never mind, bring it on!!
But they want an easy game, why can't you understand that? Choosing between defending POS and PVP roams is UNFAIR, BUAAAAHHHHH, I WANT MY SPACE EMPIRE, BUAAAAAAHHHHH |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 13:19:00 -
[1119] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:... One of the largest, most active groups in the game, with a history of delving into the mechanics of the game looking for the loopholes and problems CCP refuses to see until GSF goes ahead and rubs someone's nose in it, has multiple people posting in a thread about mechanics - the very same people who post on all of these mechanics threads, no less ... What I find most entertaining is that CCP have engaged GSF leadership as Game-architectural consultants -- and GSF leaders pay CCP for the privilege of providing consulting service!
Only thing more entertaining would be for GSF to hire competent Game-implementers to build competing Game, drive CCP out of business. Maybe they could call it "Awful Something"?
Ref: Clayton Christensen, The Innovator's Dilemma |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
346
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 13:25:00 -
[1120] - Quote
So many stupids talking about the API "lying to them".
It is absolutely moronic to think someone performing a type of in game covert sabotage against your corporation IN GAME should actually be flagged up nice and easily OUT OF GAME via API just to make your lives easier.
With whines like that it is no wonder everyone is trolling you - The question is: Is there really any reason Corp structures etc need to even be included in the API in the first place? (It is done to make life easier for POS folks, not to do half the maintenance work for them).
Tools already exist for POS fuelling via the in game calander, notifications are sent via mail in game for fuel, or when it is attacked, even when some random puts a tower up in your Sov etc... I'd argue for a much harsher Eve without even the in game help for POS operators - and that players who can't be bothered to even log in to manage and maintain their Eve POS empires don't deserve those empires in the first place.
Right now CCP panders completely for the lazy community - adding any 'syphon warning' via the API would be a massive mistake. |
|
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 13:30:00 -
[1121] - Quote
nXus wrote:Concerned that the false API tracking thing is going to completely break existing API tools that people rely on. So we'll see how the false reporting works in reality when people are emptying/shuffling silos etc.
Expecting T2 prices to go crazy. If these are spammed that's already 20% supply lost from the game and if it turns people off running the reaction chains then that's additional supply gone from the system. Add market manipulation and it's going to be a pretty crazy ride. Time will tell I guess..
I don't see this affecting large entities that don't base their ship doctrines on t2 ships. Expect T1 and T3 ships to become the norm. Perhaps CCP Plan is to use cheap siphons to crash MoonGoo production, drain existing hoards of MoonGoos, returning to original CCP intended state of MoonGoos being scarce, then later rebalance by making siphons more expensive to tune prices of MoonGoos?
Rube Goldberg, call your office! |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 13:34:00 -
[1122] - Quote
Atlantis Fuanan wrote:Good job on the siphon unit, i just love the way it will harm the "big guys". But I don't see why the owner should be abel to see WHO placed it. I'd rather leave it anonymous. Why? For the first, a thief won't let a note back with his name on it. For the second, if done by a small corp, "bug guys" could go mad and throw blobs at them, while it encourages PVP, this can't be called PVP in the end (small vs big :(). AND for the third, it could also be done by some own corp buddies and cause some conspiracy. A big part of EVE is trust right? Maybe CCP hope is that subscriptions will increase, to support anonymous siphon-planting alts? |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 15:17:00 -
[1123] - Quote
Kropotkin wrote:Atlantis Fuanan wrote:Good job on the siphon unit, i just love the way it will harm the "big guys". But I don't see why the owner should be abel to see WHO placed it. I'd rather leave it anonymous. Why? For the first, a thief won't let a note back with his name on it. For the second, if done by a small corp, "bug guys" could go mad and throw blobs at them, while it encourages PVP, this can't be called PVP in the end (small vs big :(). AND for the third, it could also be done by some own corp buddies and cause some conspiracy. A big part of EVE is trust right? Maybe CCP hope is that subscriptions will increase, to support anonymous siphon-planting alts?
Maybe the real motive of syphon's existence is delivering cups of rage to POS owners, hence the note saying "Troll face alt 1 was here" |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 15:24:00 -
[1124] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:So many stupids talking about the API "lying to them".
It is absolutely moronic to think someone performing a type of in game covert sabotage against your corporation IN GAME should actually be flagged up nice and easily OUT OF GAME via API just to make your lives easier.
With whines like that it is no wonder everyone is trolling you - The question is: Is there really any reason Corp structures etc need to even be included in the API in the first place? (It is done to make life easier for POS folks, not to do half the maintenance work for them).
Tools already exist for POS fuelling via the in game calander, notifications are sent via mail in game for fuel, or when it is attacked, even when some random puts a tower up in your Sov etc... I'd argue for a much harsher Eve without even the in game help for POS operators - and that players who can't be bothered to even log in to manage and maintain their Eve POS empires don't deserve those empires in the first place.
Right now CCP panders completely for the lazy community - adding any 'syphon warning' via the API would be a massive mistake.
And so many eve online subscribers demonstrating there incredible absence of knowledge thinking POSs are easy and AFK, that POS monkeys are lazy and are pandered to by CCP. CSM actions and consequently the Devs were told here what those lazy POS monkeys' thought about that sort of attitude "I am a small portion of the eve community" note the 143 pages of comment on why CCP not fixing POS interface and mechanics and security was not good.
If CCP was to be considered to be pandering to anyone truly lazy, it would be cloaky AFKers. I mean, how little effort do they put into their gameplay? Think further, how ironic would it be if someone combined an AFK cloaky with these siphons to steal moon goo? How could that not be described as lazy gameplay?
On the matter of the API, yes diddling the API so it reports false information, what could be wrong with that? I guess those people using Evemon, Eve Fitting Tool, Pyfa they are all lazy as well I suppose, bad API feeds wouldn't bother them would it? It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Pirate Nation.
132
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 15:30:00 -
[1125] - Quote
OK so if you want the API not to lie, then the Siphon unit can be emptied and then scooped, so someone actually in system can work it to their advantage, do an hour of siphon then grab the moon goo then take back teh Siphon. In fact when I thought about this unit after CCP proposed it I assumed that is how it would work, I also assumed it would be placed about 300 km from the POS. While I will use this at a strategic level, there is no way that I would use this to make ISK at 10m a pop and anyone can take the stuff... If you do not want LOCAL go to WH space,-áand those people who think that WH space is like 0.0 but without local,-álight a cyno and try jumping to it.-á-á There is a structural issue with Eve, based on accounts with no link, vast reserves of ISK-áand plex, which makes it too easy to metagame the destruction of small alliances. |
Herr Esiq
Dirt Nap Squad
73
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 15:46:00 -
[1126] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:On the matter of the API, yes diddling the API so it reports false information, what could be wrong with that? I guess those people using Evemon, Eve Fitting Tool, Pyfa they are all lazy as well I suppose, bad API feeds wouldn't bother them would it? And you can"t see the difference between a 'personal character monitor' and a 'automated alliance tool that monotors a complete empire like HAL 9000'.
You really cant can you? |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
465
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 15:54:00 -
[1127] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Lessons learned
GÇóShooting at stationary structures is boring
GÇóWaking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
GùªSee: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool
GÇóMaking something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it
GùªSee: everything involving starbases.
From this Dev Blog.
Apparently they have forgotten the lessons learned. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Herr Esiq
Dirt Nap Squad
73
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 16:05:00 -
[1128] - Quote
It would be tedious if i see my sihphon units removed constantly.. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
466
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 16:18:00 -
[1129] - Quote
My take on the API giving "false" information. It is a bad mechanic.
A POS manger uses the API to manage POS, he is looking at the information that the API is sending him and satisfied goes and does something fun, rather than sitting there micro manageing POS. If he notices somthing amiss, he is not "AFK" he can deal with the problem. With this "mechanic" he is not going to have time to do something fun, he is having to tediously check each POS.
I don't know about anybody else but I play this GAME to have fun, it is not supposed to be a tedious, second job simulator. TBH I don't own a POS because I don't want to have a second job in EVE. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
466
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 16:21:00 -
[1130] - Quote
Herr Esiq wrote:It would be tedious if i see my sihphon units removed constantly.. Then the POS owner isn't AFK, and you should find a POS owner that is. QED You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
|
Herr Esiq
Dirt Nap Squad
73
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 16:25:00 -
[1131] - Quote
The API gives out way too much information already, and i'll give credit where credit is due; players really REALLY went out of their way to create tools to monitor empty regions of space through IT development.
If the API would tell the truth, there still wont be any incentive to check on the POS how its holding up except for the calendar route that was previously planned.
Maybe it shouldnt lie, but that part of the API should be removed completely. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
466
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 16:38:00 -
[1132] - Quote
Herr Esiq wrote:The API gives out way too much information already, and i'll give credit where credit is due; players really REALLY went out of their way to create tools to monitor empty regions of space through IT development.
If the API would tell the truth, there still wont be any incentive to check on the POS how its holding up except for the calendar route that was previously planned.
Maybe it shouldnt lie and remove that part of the API completely.. Then give us a reason to use the awful trusec system that the moon is in, besides renting it out under usufruct. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Mister McDerp
University of Caille Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 16:41:00 -
[1133] - Quote
Herr Esiq wrote:It would be tedious if i see my sihphon units removed constantly.. It would be tedious if i see my reactions shut down constantly
also more expensive |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4891
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 16:44:00 -
[1134] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:My take on the API giving "false" information. It is a bad mechanic.
A POS manger uses the API to manage POS, he is looking at the information that the API is sending him and satisfied goes and does something fun, rather than sitting there micro manageing POS. If he notices somthing amiss, he is not "AFK" he can deal with the problem. With this "mechanic" he is not going to have time to do something fun, he is having to tediously check each POS.
I don't know about anybody else but I play this GAME to have fun, it is not supposed to be a tedious, second job simulator. TBH I don't own a POS because I don't want to have a second job in EVE. I see that progodlegend will triumph over the empty husks of our unmaintained pos There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Fix Lag
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
583
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 17:29:00 -
[1135] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Falin Whalen wrote:My take on the API giving "false" information. It is a bad mechanic.
A POS manger uses the API to manage POS, he is looking at the information that the API is sending him and satisfied goes and does something fun, rather than sitting there micro manageing POS. If he notices somthing amiss, he is not "AFK" he can deal with the problem. With this "mechanic" he is not going to have time to do something fun, he is having to tediously check each POS.
I don't know about anybody else but I play this GAME to have fun, it is not supposed to be a tedious, second job simulator. TBH I don't own a POS because I don't want to have a second job in EVE. I see that progodlegend will triumph over the empty husks of our unmaintained pos
Didn't you know N3 was formed to kill us |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
789
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 18:17:00 -
[1136] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: I see that progodlegend will triumph over the empty husks of our unmaintained pos
Every time I see that, I read it as "prodgodlegend" which tbqh is a much better name.
|
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
346
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 18:29:00 -
[1137] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:So many stupids talking about the API "lying to them".
It is absolutely moronic to think someone performing a type of in game covert sabotage against your corporation IN GAME should actually be flagged up nice and easily OUT OF GAME via API just to make your lives easier.
With whines like that it is no wonder everyone is trolling you - The question is: Is there really any reason Corp structures etc need to even be included in the API in the first place? (It is done to make life easier for POS folks, not to do half the maintenance work for them).
Tools already exist for POS fuelling via the in game calander, notifications are sent via mail in game for fuel, or when it is attacked, even when some random puts a tower up in your Sov etc... I'd argue for a much harsher Eve without even the in game help for POS operators - and that players who can't be bothered to even log in to manage and maintain their Eve POS empires don't deserve those empires in the first place.
Right now CCP panders completely for the lazy community - adding any 'syphon warning' via the API would be a massive mistake. And so many eve online subscribers demonstrating there incredible absence of knowledge thinking POSs are easy and AFK, that POS monkeys are lazy and are pandered to by CCP. CSM actions and consequently the Devs were told here what those lazy POS monkeys' thought about that sort of attitude "I am a small portion of the eve community" note the 143 pages of comment on why CCP not fixing POS interface and mechanics and security was not good. If CCP was to be considered to be pandering to anyone truly lazy, it would be cloaky AFKers. I mean, how little effort do they put into their gameplay? Think further, how ironic would it be if someone combined an AFK cloaky with these siphons to steal moon goo? How could that not be described as lazy gameplay? On the matter of the API, yes diddling the API so it reports false information, what could be wrong with that? I guess those people using Evemon, Eve Fitting Tool, Pyfa they are all lazy as well I suppose, bad API feeds wouldn't bother them would it?
You are being obtuse.
GÇó It is accepted that a moon mining POS is AFK income, as in it accrues materials while you are offline - so you are wrong. GÇó You assume others have no knowledge of POS managment because they disagree with your whines - you are wrong (I have ran a POS network of 15 POS solo and know the issues and pain of doing so). GÇó You are crying about Eve Fitting tool other API tools/data that have nothing to do with syphons and their (lack of) impact on the API - it just shows how obtuse you are being. GÇó You are apparently delibrately confusing Two Steps suggestions (dead horse POS rework) with supporting your own agenda about syphons - Just because POS owners (myself included) badly want a rework of the mechanics in a threadnaught about POS mechanics doesn't mean they agree with you about syphons. GÇó AFK Cloak whine - Stop talking rubbish about AFK cloaking laziness, you are being stupid and should go post in the relevant thread about that.
Fact is the API tool is useful for helping people do stuff out of game with the tools designed by players. These tools should NOT give an in game advantage, which is what some player designed 'syphon alert' system would do if POS syphoning appeared via the API.
|
Arrendis
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
74
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 19:03:00 -
[1138] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:Fact is the API tool is useful for helping people do stuff out of game with the tools designed by players. These tools should NOT give an in game advantage, which is what some player designed 'syphon alert' system would do if POS syphoning appeared via the API.
And the fact is that the API's purpose is to give accurate, useful information. If it shouldn't be giving certain information, the correct response is to not give out that information, not to give out inaccurate information. If you're giving players a tool and saying 'you can trust this', and then you make it lie, you're only demonstrating that your players can trust neither your tool, nor you. |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
346
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 19:36:00 -
[1139] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:Fact is the API tool is useful for helping people do stuff out of game with the tools designed by players. These tools should NOT give an in game advantage, which is what some player designed 'syphon alert' system would do if POS syphoning appeared via the API.
And the fact is that the API's purpose is to give accurate, useful information. If it shouldn't be giving certain information, the correct response is to not give out that information, not to give out inaccurate information. If you're giving players a tool and saying 'you can trust this', and then you make it lie, you're only demonstrating that your players can trust neither your tool, nor you.
No because you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is still a useful indicator, just not guaranteed to be a 100% accurate figure *if* you get you POS syphoned. If you want to know your EXACT silo statuses every hour - check in game. |
Fix Lag
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
583
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 19:59:00 -
[1140] - Quote
Stop misspelling siphons. |
|
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
61
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 20:01:00 -
[1141] - Quote
Sojobo Otaku wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:I'd be interested to know about future application of the "API will lie to you" precedent.
Just think of the possibilities to make you have to check everything in-game. A skill to make your market orders api more accurate ... This feature would be completely useless if the API didn't lie. I do however think the size should probably be bigger in the cargohold. If the API didn't lie though then POS owners would instanly know someone is stealing from them and thus the feature would be a total waste of time. /me detects a bullshitter somewhere...oh its that sojobo guy! the one who tries telling people the API would instantly make these syphoons useless when in reality the corp assets api has a 6 hour cache timer and someone would have to check that api data and even if you automatically checked every 6 hours you still need someone to be awake and able to go to the pos to remove the syphoon. I have a life so even with the ability to know that my pos is being stolen from there is a 16 hour window (us real world people call it sleep and a job) that I literally can NOT get on eve to do a damn thing about a syphoon. At least if someone was killing my pos my stront would give me a realistic chance to tear down/gather a defense force. <Munnkeh> i'm gonna use that excuse if i ever kill someone. "look, if you keep meeting ppl, it's bound to happen eventually" http://i.imgur.com/76pQ9.jpg |
TimNeilson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 20:46:00 -
[1142] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:Arrendis wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:Fact is the API tool is useful for helping people do stuff out of game with the tools designed by players. These tools should NOT give an in game advantage, which is what some player designed 'syphon alert' system would do if POS syphoning appeared via the API.
And the fact is that the API's purpose is to give accurate, useful information. If it shouldn't be giving certain information, the correct response is to not give out that information, not to give out inaccurate information. If you're giving players a tool and saying 'you can trust this', and then you make it lie, you're only demonstrating that your players can trust neither your tool, nor you. No because you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is still a useful indicator, just not guaranteed to be a 100% accurate figure *if* you get you POS syphoned. If you want to know your EXACT silo statuses every hour - check in game.
Except there's no good justification for why your poses would lie to you in the first place. And like other people have said, there's a 6 hour cache on pos status updates anyway, so the only way you would know "immediately" would be if the siphoner was unlucky and managed to place his siphon shortly before the end of that 6 hour window. Combine this with people having other things to do rather than sit in front of a computer keeping track of their poses all day for a marginal decrease in how much they'll be penalized by these things, and you get a ****** mechanic that also drags down a good one, namely the API. |
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
61
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 20:46:00 -
[1143] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Lessons learned
GÇóShooting at stationary structures is boring
GÇóWaking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
GùªSee: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool
GÇóMaking something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it
GùªSee: everything involving starbases. From this Dev Blog. Apparently they have forgotten the lessons learned. quoting just to make a dev read this again! <Munnkeh> i'm gonna use that excuse if i ever kill someone. "look, if you keep meeting ppl, it's bound to happen eventually" http://i.imgur.com/76pQ9.jpg |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1461
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 21:54:00 -
[1144] - Quote
Holy cocks, i forgot all about that Greyscale quote. Nice grab. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Ereshgikal
Pigs and Sows
18
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 22:17:00 -
[1145] - Quote
Herr Esiq wrote:It would be tedious if i see my sihphon units removed constantly..
Interesting point. Since the siphon is linked to a person, I do hope it is accessible through the persons asset API, thus making it easier for the siphon owner to check amount of goodies in it. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
473
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 22:21:00 -
[1146] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Holy cocks, i forgot all about that Greyscale quote. Nice grab. 21 Jun 2011, never forgive, never forget. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4894
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 22:46:00 -
[1147] - Quote
Ereshgikal wrote:Herr Esiq wrote:It would be tedious if i see my sihphon units removed constantly.. Interesting point. Since the siphon is linked to a person, I do hope it is accessible through the persons asset API, thus making it easier for the siphon owner to check amount of goodies in it. Nah it should lie to you. Go check the siphon to see what is in it or if it has been destroyed. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
349
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 23:30:00 -
[1148] - Quote
Fix Lag wrote:Stop misspelling siphons.
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/syphon |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
349
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 23:51:00 -
[1149] - Quote
TimNeilson wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:
No because you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is still a useful indicator, just not guaranteed to be a 100% accurate figure *if* you get you POS syphoned. If you want to know your EXACT silo statuses every hour - check in game.
Except there's no good justification for why your poses would lie to you in the first place. And like other people have said, there's a 6 hour cache on pos status updates anyway, so the only way you would know "immediately" would be if the siphoner was unlucky and managed to place his siphon shortly before the end of that 6 hour window. Combine this with people having other things to do rather than sit in front of a computer keeping track of their poses all day for a marginal decrease in how much they'll be penalized by these things, and you get a ****** mechanic that also drags down a good one, namely the API.
A much better argument, but actually there is good justification why your POS silos would wrongly report their levels to you - because they are being tampered with by the syphons.
You seem to think that we are entitled to POS silo information inherantly, and I'd challange that belief and say that actually we operated for years without it before it was included in the API, so why don't you actually justify why now it is so essential?
Sure its 'nice' to see this info while at work or wherever when you cant log into Eve but are "sitting in front of a computer keeping track of your poses all day for a marginal" improvement in their POS management efficiency... but is it really necessary or essential information? IMHO no. |
TimNeilson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 00:07:00 -
[1150] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:TimNeilson wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:
No because you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is still a useful indicator, just not guaranteed to be a 100% accurate figure *if* you get you POS syphoned. If you want to know your EXACT silo statuses every hour - check in game.
Except there's no good justification for why your poses would lie to you in the first place. And like other people have said, there's a 6 hour cache on pos status updates anyway, so the only way you would know "immediately" would be if the siphoner was unlucky and managed to place his siphon shortly before the end of that 6 hour window. Combine this with people having other things to do rather than sit in front of a computer keeping track of their poses all day for a marginal decrease in how much they'll be penalized by these things, and you get a ****** mechanic that also drags down a good one, namely the API. A much better argument, but actually there is good justification why your POS silos would wrongly report their levels to you - because they are being tampered with by the syphons. You seem to think that we are entitled to POS silo information inherantly, and I'd challange that belief and say that actually we operated for years without it before it was included in the API, so why don't you actually justify why now it is so essential? Sure its 'nice' to see this info while at work or wherever when you cant log into Eve but are "sitting in front of a computer keeping track of your poses all day for a marginal" improvement in their POS management efficiency... but is it really necessary or essential information? IMHO no.
If the information is provided, it should be accurate. I would rather have the information not be provided than have unreliable information, even though that's still a giant pain in the ass, because it accomplishes the exact same thing of "I have to go check on this **** ingame to find out the correct values." That said, either way this is a step back in terms of the API and ease of use for a feature that's already a pretty big pain in the butt to begin with if you're involved in it in any way. |
|
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 00:13:00 -
[1151] - Quote
Herr Esiq wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:On the matter of the API, yes diddling the API so it reports false information, what could be wrong with that? I guess those people using Evemon, Eve Fitting Tool, Pyfa they are all lazy as well I suppose, bad API feeds wouldn't bother them would it? And you can"t see the difference between a 'personal character monitor' and a 'automated alliance tool that monotors a complete empire like HAL 9000'. You really cant can you?
Hmm, let me think about that for a moment. Yeah, no quite sure Mittens doesn't have such a tool, I mean I am sure Digi would LOVE such a tool in his never ending quest to find spies. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 00:32:00 -
[1152] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:So many stupids talking about the API "lying to them".
It is absolutely moronic to think someone performing a type of in game covert sabotage against your corporation IN GAME should actually be flagged up nice and easily OUT OF GAME via API just to make your lives easier.
With whines like that it is no wonder everyone is trolling you - The question is: Is there really any reason Corp structures etc need to even be included in the API in the first place? (It is done to make life easier for POS folks, not to do half the maintenance work for them).
Tools already exist for POS fuelling via the in game calander, notifications are sent via mail in game for fuel, or when it is attacked, even when some random puts a tower up in your Sov etc... I'd argue for a much harsher Eve without even the in game help for POS operators - and that players who can't be bothered to even log in to manage and maintain their Eve POS empires don't deserve those empires in the first place.
Right now CCP panders completely for the lazy community - adding any 'syphon warning' via the API would be a massive mistake. And so many eve online subscribers demonstrating there incredible absence of knowledge thinking POSs are easy and AFK, that POS monkeys are lazy and are pandered to by CCP. CSM actions and consequently the Devs were told here what those lazy POS monkeys' thought about that sort of attitude "I am a small portion of the eve community" note the 143 pages of comment on why CCP not fixing POS interface and mechanics and security was not good. If CCP was to be considered to be pandering to anyone truly lazy, it would be cloaky AFKers. I mean, how little effort do they put into their gameplay? Think further, how ironic would it be if someone combined an AFK cloaky with these siphons to steal moon goo? How could that not be described as lazy gameplay? On the matter of the API, yes diddling the API so it reports false information, what could be wrong with that? I guess those people using Evemon, Eve Fitting Tool, Pyfa they are all lazy as well I suppose, bad API feeds wouldn't bother them would it? You are being obtuse. GÇó It is accepted that a moon mining POS is AFK income, as in it accrues materials while you are offline - so you are wrong. GÇó You assume others have no knowledge of POS managment because they disagree with your whines - you are wrong (I have ran a POS network of 15 POS solo and know the issues and pain of doing so). GÇó You are crying about Eve Fitting tool other API tools/data that have nothing to do with syphons and their (lack of) impact on the API - it just shows how obtuse you are being. GÇó You are apparently delibrately confusing Two Steps suggestions (dead horse POS rework) with supporting your own agenda about syphons - Just because POS owners (myself included) badly want a rework of the mechanics in a threadnaught about POS mechanics doesn't mean they agree with you about syphons. GÇó AFK Cloak whine - Stop talking rubbish about AFK cloaking laziness, you are being stupid and should go post in the relevant thread about that. Fact is the API tool is useful for helping people do stuff out of game with the tools designed by players. These tools should NOT give an in game advantage, which is what some player designed 'syphon alert' system would do if POS syphoning appeared via the API.
Not obtuse at all. You just don't like me knocking your points over.
*the income from POS is only earned, collected, when you get it to market, the POS accumulates materials you can sell over time. However, like any ship you undock, you must assume it can be lost at any time unless it is in a station. Before you whine at me about that, I am an accountant in real life and moon goo in a POS would not be classified as income earned on accounting grounds. As the risk and reward of the moon goo has not substantially passed to the customer. *I linked a thread in which CCP devs didn't seem to get it, why should you? You stated you thought we were lazy. Now you say you know the pain of running POS. Which is it? Can't have it both ways. *No, just a broad example, obtuse means open angle by the way. Marketters, station industrialists, researchers all rely on API tools, none of them are getting there ring burnt by these changes, why not? Why shouldn't the API lie to them as well? *POS mechanics, interface and security all drive the way we interact with POS and contribute to the burn out people suffer from these things. Which CCP just decided wasn't enough without adding these unbalanced devices. *AFK Cloaky I have no issue with the mechanic itself, I do it myself at times. What I am quite certain is that it IS NOT ACTIVE GAME PLAY you moron. It is the most completely lazy game mode ever, which you seem to think I engage in lazy gameplay when managing my POS's, which you then is an issue and painful. Very confusing. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 00:58:00 -
[1153] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:A much better argument, but actually there is good justification why your POS silos would wrongly report their levels to you - because they are being tampered with by the syphons. so why don't you actually justify why now it is so essential? . Your justification is in your own post, pos siphons were not around years ago, the API was not around years ago. Now we have both. It is not the pos siphon that is manipulating the numbers returned from the API, it is CCP manipulating the API.
How about if CCP decided alliance G***----- was to powerful so to help get rid of them, whenever 1 of their pilots enters a fight the damage his ship takes will be manipulated to show less than it actually is and the damage his weapons does will be reduced. Extreme example but basically the same thing is happening with pos's. The information you will receive is manipulated to show as wrong.
I like to think the people I pay money to are at least honest in their business dealings. I'm not talking about ingame that would be naive, everyone is a thief that's why we have 3rd party sites and applications, to be able to see who may be an awoxer or who is a corp thief, is the guy who applied to my corp the alt of a corp we are at war with, etc. CCP has openly admitted to manipulating the API information, what's to stop them doing it in other areas. Is it being done in other areas?
**I am aware these are extreme examples BUT the whole eve economy is based on you being smarter than the guy trying to rip you off, if ccp is helping the guy who is ripping you off it really unbalances things.
The API updates every 6 hours, let it give accurate information so it can be acted on. If I'm at work and can't actually login to the game I still want to be able to trust the information I am getting from the API so I can possible call someone in to act on it.
|
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
791
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 01:45:00 -
[1154] - Quote
:frogsiren: Serious Question for Devs :frogsiren:
Does the siphon have to be within 50 km of the POS in order to function, or just to be deployed? In other words, can I deploy a siphon 50.1 km from a POS and have a non-functioning, but still fully deployed siphon? Such that, to the casual observer looking on dscan or just showing up on grid, it appears that a siphon is already acting upon that POS?
Thanks! |
Khoul Ay'd
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
117
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 01:48:00 -
[1155] - Quote
Ereshgikal wrote:Interesting point. Since the siphon is linked to a person, I do hope it is accessible through the persons asset API, thus making it easier for the siphon owner to check amount of goodies in it.
I hope if they do this, and I hope they make it so the API lies and always says its full of R64. The things we do today we must live with forever.... Think about it |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 01:49:00 -
[1156] - Quote
Sure shooting a 50k hp struct is tedious.
Tell me now about farming red crosses a whole day. |
Sariton Xavian
Mercado Mercator Partners and Associates
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 02:06:00 -
[1157] - Quote
The general concept that individuals can profit from disrupting large entities outside empire space is a good one.
An implementation where anyone can inexpensively spam their way to ruining the days of POS operators is a bad one.
People are up in arms about the API lying to them and arguing about that, but I think that argument of tool integrity/POS management drudgery vs gameplay imperative has missed the real issue: that the apparent asynchronous gameplay objective of siphons as announced isnGÇÖt quite right.
Everyone complains about AFK and asynch gameplay overshadowing real interaction... so rather than try to spice up the dull passive (plus boring administration) play of POSGÇÖs with another piece of fundamentally asynch gameplay, why not come at it from the angle of it encouraging interactive gameplay events instead?
Make the siphon a bit larger and more expensive, and provide a benefit to the POS operator if they respond to it quickly GÇô for example by allowing the incapacitation, scooping and melting of the siphon (and associated recovery of its contents). The point is POS operators shouldnGÇÖt purely dread the threat of being siphoned, there should be a potential positive to them logging in to respond to one quickly. The API then wouldnGÇÖt need to lie, because the GOAL is that POS owners mobilise quickly.
Placing a siphon then becomes a small scale incitement event available to individuals or small groups. A more fluid, faster turn around, accessible alternative to re-enforcing a tower. If the POS owner is lazy, doesnGÇÖt care, isnGÇÖt paying attention, then the individual/small group can profit. If the owner is on the ball, they lose nothing and maybe gain a bit GÇô and heaven forbid a skirmish might even occur. With a design along these lines larger groups might use siphon placement as a baiting, testing or buildup exercise which once again adds to the experience rather than detracting. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4898
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 03:18:00 -
[1158] - Quote
Sariton Xavian wrote:The general concept that individuals can profit from disrupting large entities outside empire space is a good one.
An implementation where anyone can inexpensively spam their way to ruining the days of POS operators is a bad one.
People are up in arms about the API lying to them and arguing about that, but I think that argument of tool integrity/POS management drudgery vs gameplay imperative has missed the real issue: that the apparent asynchronous gameplay objective of siphons as announced isnGÇÖt quite right.
Everyone complains about AFK and asynch gameplay overshadowing real interaction... so rather than try to spice up the dull passive (plus boring administration) play of POSGÇÖs with another piece of fundamentally asynch gameplay, why not come at it from the angle of it encouraging interactive gameplay events instead?
Make the siphon a bit larger and more expensive, and provide a benefit to the POS operator if they respond to it quickly GÇô for example by allowing the incapacitation, scooping and melting of the siphon (and associated recovery of its contents). The point is POS operators shouldnGÇÖt purely dread the threat of being siphoned, there should be a potential positive to them logging in to respond to one quickly. The API then wouldnGÇÖt need to lie, because the GOAL is that POS owners mobilise quickly.
Placing a siphon then becomes a small scale incitement event available to individuals or small groups. A more fluid, faster turn around, accessible alternative to re-enforcing a tower. If the POS owner is lazy, doesnGÇÖt care, isnGÇÖt paying attention, then the individual/small group can profit. If the owner is on the ball, they lose nothing and maybe gain a bit GÇô and heaven forbid a skirmish might even occur. With a design along these lines larger groups might use siphon placement as a baiting, testing or buildup exercise which once again adds to the experience rather than detracting. But I liked the punishing people who aren't around
There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 03:23:00 -
[1159] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Why is this a deployable not a highslot module that sends a notification?
Quote:As I see it at last it was my lot to plant the harpoon of algebraic topology into the body of the whale of algebraic geometry. -- Solomon Lefschetz |
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 03:23:00 -
[1160] - Quote
Sariton Xavian wrote:The general concept that individuals can profit from disrupting large entities outside empire space is a good one.
An implementation where anyone can inexpensively spam their way to ruining the days of POS operators is a bad one.
People are up in arms about the API lying to them and arguing about that, but I think that argument of tool integrity/POS management drudgery vs gameplay imperative has missed the real issue: that the apparent asynchronous gameplay objective of siphons as announced isnGÇÖt quite right.
Everyone complains about AFK and asynch gameplay overshadowing real interaction... so rather than try to spice up the dull passive (plus boring administration) play of POSGÇÖs with another piece of fundamentally asynch gameplay, why not come at it from the angle of it encouraging interactive gameplay events instead?
Make the siphon a bit larger and more expensive, and provide a benefit to the POS operator if they respond to it quickly GÇô for example by allowing the incapacitation, scooping and melting of the siphon (and associated recovery of its contents). The point is POS operators shouldnGÇÖt purely dread the threat of being siphoned, there should be a potential positive to them logging in to respond to one quickly. The API then wouldnGÇÖt need to lie, because the GOAL is that POS owners mobilise quickly.
Placing a siphon then becomes a small scale incitement event available to individuals or small groups. A more fluid, faster turn around, accessible alternative to re-enforcing a tower. If the POS owner is lazy, doesnGÇÖt care, isnGÇÖt paying attention, then the individual/small group can profit. If the owner is on the ball, they lose nothing and maybe gain a bit GÇô and heaven forbid a skirmish might even occur. With a design along these lines larger groups might use siphon placement as a baiting, testing or buildup exercise which once again adds to the experience rather than detracting. the mere fact there is something stealing from our pos will be enough to drive the pos owners online...ccp is wanting some sort of useful theft device thou and that demands that the pos owners dont find out about the siphons so there will be something to actually steal in the siphon. basically this kind of mechanic will never hurt the major null alliances as much as it will hurt the small low sec corps, its very nature is broken. <Munnkeh> i'm gonna use that excuse if i ever kill someone. "look, if you keep meeting ppl, it's bound to happen eventually" http://i.imgur.com/76pQ9.jpg |
|
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 03:38:00 -
[1161] - Quote
I'd like to see a pole on this;
Will pos siphons affect major alliances 1 Positively 2 Negatively 3 Both 4 Neither |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1462
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 04:00:00 -
[1162] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:I'd like to see a pole on this;
Will pos siphons affect major alliances 1 Positively 2 Negatively 3 Both 4 Neither
I would like to see your pole. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Sariton Xavian
Mercado Mercator Partners and Associates
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 06:36:00 -
[1163] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote: the mere fact there is something stealing from our pos will be enough to drive the pos owners online...ccp is wanting some sort of useful theft device thou and that demands that the pos owners dont find out about the siphons so there will be something to actually steal in the siphon. basically this kind of mechanic will never hurt the major null alliances as much as it will hurt the small low sec corps, its very nature is broken.
The way I look at it, the entire framework that causes null alliances and coalitions to form is broken, and is unlikely to be fixed by any single bandaid. Most things that take a stab at it will hurt small lowsec corps more, and addressing that problem is a much bigger question than a little feature like this one. However, I think a feature along these lines could add overall interest to the entire POS mining equilibrium without needing to poke lowsec punitively in the eye. In particular if the investment into the siphon is tuned at the right level (which might include a fuel cost rather than an increase in the ticket price of its materials), it will make the value equation of hitting lower value moons shakier and drive attention towards the higher value moons which are routinely held by the larger alliances. For it to work, there needs to be enough room in the financial value of the moon mining stream to motivate individuals (or corps) to risk X to try and siphon Y from it so with the right numbers it could be deliberately tuned to be undesirable in lowsec.
As for the simple fact of someone stealing from a POS being enough to drive the owner online, yes I agree it will. But they will resent it because it is a lose/lose scenario for them where the most positive outcome is for nobody to ever drop a siphon on them in the first place - something the POS owner can't even realistically control. When a major stakeholder's ideal situation is for other people to simply not choose to use a new feature, that seems like a fundamentally poor addition to the game. The justification of needing to break an unhealthy status quo isnGÇÖt sufficient excuse for such a design choice imo.
Change the spin of the feature a bit so that there is potentially something in it for the stakeholder (the POS owner) that can be positive, something that gives them a sense of agency and involvement, and that substantially changes the value of the feature.
Obviously there still needs to be enough incentive of potential profit for people to be motivated to drop siphons, but I think there's enough value in moon mining streams to make that work. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 07:37:00 -
[1164] - Quote
Sariton Xavian wrote:Omega Flames wrote: the mere fact there is something stealing from our pos will be enough to drive the pos owners online...ccp is wanting some sort of useful theft device thou and that demands that the pos owners dont find out about the siphons so there will be something to actually steal in the siphon. basically this kind of mechanic will never hurt the major null alliances as much as it will hurt the small low sec corps, its very nature is broken.
The way I look at it, the entire framework that causes null alliances and coalitions to form is broken, and is unlikely to be fixed by any single bandaid. Most things that take a stab at it will hurt small lowsec corps more, and addressing that problem is a much bigger question than a little feature like this one. However, I think a feature along these lines could add overall interest to the entire POS mining equilibrium without needing to poke lowsec punitively in the eye. In particular if the investment into the siphon is tuned at the right level (which might include a fuel cost rather than an increase in the ticket price of its materials), it will make the value equation of hitting lower value moons shakier and drive attention towards the higher value moons which are routinely held by the larger alliances. For it to work, there needs to be enough room in the financial value of the moon mining stream to motivate individuals (or corps) to risk X to try and siphon Y from it so with the right numbers it could be deliberately tuned to be undesirable in lowsec. As for the simple fact of someone stealing from a POS being enough to drive the owner online, yes I agree it will. But they will resent it because it is a lose/lose scenario for them where the most positive outcome is for nobody to ever drop a siphon on them in the first place - something the POS owner can't even realistically control. When a major stakeholder's ideal situation is for other people to simply not choose to use a new feature, that seems like a fundamentally poor addition to the game. The justification of needing to break an unhealthy status quo isnGÇÖt sufficient excuse for such a design choice imo. Change the spin of the feature a bit so that there is potentially something in it for the stakeholder (the POS owner) that can be positive, something that gives them a sense of agency and involvement, and that substantially changes the value of the feature. Obviously there still needs to be enough incentive of potential profit for people to be motivated to drop siphons, but I think there's enough value in moon mining streams to make that work. 2 siphons shuts down a pos and even if the pos owner is online and destroys them is still going to suffer losses. With no way to recoup those losses what incentive is there for small operators to continue moon mining? It will be cheaper and involve less risk to keep dropping siphons than to reinforce a pos, the attacker gets to put the pos out of business with little to no risk, while the owner of the pos has little to no way of fighting back. Employing people to guard my pos's is not an option as there simply isn't enough profit in it. The simple proximity of lowsec moons is a really good indicator as to where the majority of these will be tested out (initially at least) Who's going to travel to nul and look for moons when there is such an abundance in lowsec. Nulsec involves running the gauntlet of SOV space to 1st get to where the moon mining operations are carried out, then you need to scan down the pos's, putting you at risk of being found by sov holders. Imo lowsec will be the primary target of these and the nul empires can sit back and laugh as their stake in moon mining grows more valuable due to lack of competition.
Could someone come up with some projected figures as to how much a siphon on an R64 moon would pay?? Are they a viable source of income or simply a griefing tool?
|
Sariton Xavian
Mercado Mercator Partners and Associates
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 08:13:00 -
[1165] - Quote
If the siphon is scoopable after incapacitation, and/or requires fuel to run that the POS owner can claim as their prize when they respond to being siphoned (and which also reduces the profitability of a siphoner when targeting lower value moons), then the POS owner can achieve a net profit from responding effectively to being siphoned at the expense of fire and forget siphoners. On average across the world of Eve some profit will be diverted away from POS owners, that is after all one of the goals. But by altering the risks taken by the siphoner and the accessibility of those outlays to the POS owner on response it creates a dynamic where the diligant of either side have a chance to be better off. A running cost for the siphoner also makes the otherwise more vulnerable moons less desirable to help direct the attention where its needed - high value moons. The logistics of going deep into nullsec are another piece of the puzzle - but at least its the right puzzle to be trying to solve.
The feature as published is busted. I'm saying the idea can be made to work in a useful way with some changes.
I'd also like to see some numbers. I don't have time atm to theorycraft a comparison of the different moon goos up and I'm sure there are many people in this thread with more experience than me at running moon mining operations who could do it more quickly and accurately. |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 10:01:00 -
[1166] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.
In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway. I don't like this. Unlimited unattended destruction is no better than unlimited unattended production. |
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 10:42:00 -
[1167] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:[Could someone come up with some projected figures as to how much a siphon on an R64 moon would pay?? Are they a viable source of income or simply a griefing tool?
a dyspro moon makes 4,602,103.00 min or 4,989,997.00 max per hour at jita prices (thats before fuel costs as the siphon doesnt care how much isk we have to spend on blocks) so 1 siphon would steal 60/100 units and with a 20% loss thats 48 units per hour into the siphon (2,209,009.44 min or 2,395,198.56 max per hour). assuming a cost of 10 mil isk it would take 4.52 at min price or 4.17 at max price hours to turn a profit. so if the siphon went undetected for 25 hours (the time needed to fill the siphon with 1200 m3 of dyspro) it would make 55,225,236 min or 59,879,964 max (before the cost of the siphon) however it would cost the pos owner 69,031,545 min or 74,849,955 max (before the cost of fuel). a min of 45 mil or max of 49 mil isk in the first day of the siphon stealing aint too bad a haul for "afk" work (and yes that siphon is afk work). if the siphon was abandoned and its mats collected by the pos owner after 25 hours then the pos owner still lost 14 mil min or 15 mil max from the siphon. it takes only 18.1 at min price or 16.7 at max price hours to cost the pos owner as much in moon goo due to the 20% loss as it cost to deploy the siphon. so you only need a 17-18 hour window for the pos to go unchecked and you have for sure cost the pos owner just as much isk as the siphon is worth if you never went back to collect the stolen moon goo. <Munnkeh> i'm gonna use that excuse if i ever kill someone. "look, if you keep meeting ppl, it's bound to happen eventually" http://i.imgur.com/76pQ9.jpg |
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 10:56:00 -
[1168] - Quote
Kropotkin wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.
In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway. I don't like this. Unlimited unattended destruction is no better than unlimited unattended production. except "unlimited unattended production" does NOT exist in eve at all. A pos must be kept fuel'd, silo's emptied/refilled, and out of reinforced to make moon goo production. Some of the really tight moon reaction setups have to be attended to at least every 36 hours already to maintain the pos's. Most reaction pos's don't just run for a month in between maintenance, we already have to get on alot to handle our pos's however a random griefer isnt going to know how often we have to login to know whether or not its worth while to put up a siphon but we would now have to login multiple times a day to prevent massive %'s of revenue being lost. <Munnkeh> i'm gonna use that excuse if i ever kill someone. "look, if you keep meeting ppl, it's bound to happen eventually" http://i.imgur.com/76pQ9.jpg |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1136
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 11:19:00 -
[1169] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Lessons learned
GÇóShooting at stationary structures is boring
GÇóWaking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
GùªSee: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool
GÇóMaking something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it
GùªSee: everything involving starbases We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Prester Tom
Death By Design
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 11:23:00 -
[1170] - Quote
Anyone else seeing an exciting new use for these SoE ships? |
|
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
238
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 11:32:00 -
[1171] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:Kropotkin wrote:
I don't like this. Unlimited unattended destruction is no better than unlimited unattended production.
except "unlimited unattended production" does NOT exist in eve at all. A pos must be kept fuel'd, silo's emptied/refilled, and out of reinforced to make moon goo production. Some of the really tight moon reaction setups have to be attended to at least every 36 hours already to maintain the pos's...
Unfortunately this is the cognitive dissonance we're seeing among the loudest supporters of this change.
There's a disturbing number who seem to believe that starbases are some magical ISK-generating tool that run without needing any time, risk and effort, teleporting cash straight into the owner's wallet each day. Somehow that justifies being countered a new mechanic that requires far less time, risk, and effort.
To realistically balance things out, siphons should cost several hundred million ISK and take a few hours to setup. They should require fuel topped up every few weeks, and their stolen materials should be emptied regularly to prevent overflow.
Of course this would be still be a terrible game mechanic, but at least both sides would be putting in the same effort. |
Sverre Haakonson
The Executives Executive Outcomes
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 11:34:00 -
[1172] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
Lessons learned
Nice joke. |
Prester Tom
Death By Design
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 11:44:00 -
[1173] - Quote
Syphons that are left too long should generate rogue drones. Like a mouldy infestation. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 11:44:00 -
[1174] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
Lessons learned
GÇóShooting at stationary structures is boring
GÇóWaking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
GùªSee: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool
GÇóMaking something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it
GùªSee: everything involving starbases In this case I don't think that quote is quite right.. If an operator is at risk to lose 50% to 75% of his income every day he won't keep doing it. Reactions require X + X amount to run, if that amount isn't there (because a pos syphon has taken part of it) you only get 1 reaction every 3 hours, at that rate the pos ceases to maintain a profit and is eventually offlined for a time or permanently. The owners of the R64's don't have a lot to worry about, most of them have the man power to protect their assets. (not that I believe for 1 second they will even be targeted) |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 11:46:00 -
[1175] - Quote
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:.... How does a waste of 20% would be considered griefing and not a loss of 100%? If I want really to grief, I will take the goo in my cargohold, jetisson it and shoot the can so the loss is 100% instead of 20, so you face the same problem you try to denounce, with or without waste. Interesting!
Instead of automatic, passive griefing, after dropping siphon, makes griefing require activity i.e. visiting.
I wonder: in original proposal of CCP, griefer can enforce 100% loss with visit by cloaky interceptor with small cargohold by sucking small portion from siphon into cargohold, jettisoning, then transferring remainder from siphon directly to jetcan, then blowing up jetcan? So visit-for-griefing is much easier than visit-for-profitable-harvesting? Is this what CCP intend? |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
792
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 12:06:00 -
[1176] - Quote
Prester Tom wrote:Anyone else seeing an exciting new use for these SoE ships?
Yes! But nothing to do with this, since anything cloaky will do.
|
Von Keigai
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 12:41:00 -
[1177] - Quote
Kropotkin wrote:MeBiatch wrote:... man i hate timers... all they lead to is blob fights... please ccp do every thing you can to get rid of timers But how else to synchronize attacker and defender in real-world-time?
It is easy. You send both of them a message about a fight location. And you give them an incentive to arrive.
You can increase the odds that they will both be there by sending them the message in advance, and preventing the fight from happening in advance of the scheduled time. This is, in effect, how stront timers work.
If you want to skew the results, then let one side or the other dictate the time and/or location of the fight. If you want fair fights, then don't. Thus, for example, POCO fights are slanted to the defense because they dictate the timezone after reinforcement ends.
The above is about as good as you can do given the constraints of a worldwide playerbase that has lives and jobs. You will not usually get a fight, except from very large alliances, unless there is a lot at stake. This is because people play when they play, and both parties have to be online at the same time.
The answer for siphons, though, is what I've been pushing. They should steal a large lump rarely, not small sips every hour. (The lump needs to be large enough to be worth risking a ship over.) And when they do steal, both the POS owner and the siphon "owner" get notification mails. Note that while this will usually not get a fight, occasionally it will (especially weekends). And that is much better than CCP's current design, which won't ever create a fight.
One improvement I can see on my original idea is to build in a waiting period. We might explain that by, i.e., the siphon takes a short while to process the results. Anyway, the idea is that at time T, the siphon removes stuff from the POS and mails both parties. But neither party can accually get anything from the siphon until after an interval, perhaps half an hour. This gives them both the time to notice the email, and get to the site. vonkeigai.blogspot.com |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 12:57:00 -
[1178] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:I'm cryinggggggg
|
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 13:03:00 -
[1179] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: ... Actually, to be quite honest, there was no related broadcast. It was just us discussing this thing on our evil out-of-game communication software that somehow led us all to come a-postin' Ah! GoonHiveMind! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4901
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 13:45:00 -
[1180] - Quote
Kropotkin wrote:Benjamin Hamburg wrote:.... How does a waste of 20% would be considered griefing and not a loss of 100%? If I want really to grief, I will take the goo in my cargohold, jetisson it and shoot the can so the loss is 100% instead of 20, so you face the same problem you try to denounce, with or without waste. Interesting! Instead of automatic, passive griefing, after dropping siphon, makes griefing require activity i.e. visiting. I wonder: in original proposal of CCP, griefer can enforce 100% loss with visit by cloaky interceptor with small cargohold by sucking small portion from siphon into cargohold, jettisoning, then transferring remainder from siphon directly to jetcan, then blowing up jetcan? So visit-for-griefing is much easier than visit-for-profitable-harvesting? Is this what CCP intend? I was thinking about that... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4901
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 13:45:00 -
[1181] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Gilbaron wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
Lessons learned
GÇóShooting at stationary structures is boring
GÇóWaking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
GùªSee: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool
GÇóMaking something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it
GùªSee: everything involving starbases In this case I don't think that quote is quite right.. If an operator is at risk to lose 50% to 75% of his income every day he won't keep doing it. Reactions require X + X amount to run, if that amount isn't there (because a pos syphon has taken part of it) you only get 1 reaction every 3 hours, at that rate the pos ceases to maintain a profit and is eventually offlined for a time or permanently. The owners of the R64's don't have a lot to worry about, most of them have the man power to protect their assets. (not that I believe for 1 second they will even be targeted) Harry forever will fight the goons There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Elric Darkmoor
Axiom Sprocket
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 14:04:00 -
[1182] - Quote
I think maybe i don't know enough about POS and Moon mining operations, and although i have been looking to see this mention in the thread, i have not noticed it.
But would the POS Guns not blow up the ship trying to deploy the syphon before the pilot gets to deploy it? |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 14:07:00 -
[1183] - Quote
Elric Darkmoor wrote:I think maybe i don't know enough about POS and Moon mining operations, and although i have been looking to see this mention in the thread, i have not noticed it.
But would the POS Guns not blow up the ship trying to deploy the syphon before the pilot gets to deploy it? Pos guns have such low scan res even manned by a gunner you would have to be lucky to get a lock on a cloaky before he did what he had to and warped off |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
704
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 14:27:00 -
[1184] - Quote
Re: the comical old Greyscale quote (does he still work at CCP?):
I still think the devs were wrong about the old POS-based sov warfare system. I'm sure they're correct in that all they heard was about how the sov system was grindy and boring, but I think they misinterpreted what that meant: players are always going to complain about "the grind," but the reality was that lots of people showed up to participate in POS warfare, and lots of people actually enjoyed it as well. Stront timing mechanics made contesting systems a drawn out process with lots of smaller fights and skirmishes (to control kiting, for example, or to try and ninja-rep POS defenses) in addition to the major reinforcement timers, while also ensuring that abandoned space would either fall quickly (as no timers were adjusted and POSes would die after a single RF cycle) or even by default (if the attacker just waited for abandoned POS to offline).
The bottom line is this: the POS warfare system created content. Yes, it felt like a big grind, but I remember time when there would be fights over a single system that would run for days at a time, with near-constant skirmishing between sides as the dominant party would try to maintain control over gates and keep the defenders cowering inside their POS in order to keep kiting timers and destroying towers that came out reinforced at strange times of day. Say what you will about the POS grind: at least it gave players (even the ones who couldn't show up to the final structure timer fights) something to log in and do-- the Dominion system usually comes down to uncontested structure shooting for the first few timers, then some massive fight for the final one (if you can't be online for this fight, you miss literally all of the action). In between, nothing happens at all. Maybe the attackers or defenders rep a jump bridge or the guns on their (singular) staging POS. Mostly the systems just sit empty while everyone goes off to play a game that's actually fun while they wait 36 hours for some structure timer. That's bad game design. At least the old system was involving, and-- when all was said and done-- made the winners feel like they'd accomplished something significant.
In addition, the POS warfare system challenged strategists and logistics teams much more than the Dominion system. Defenders had to maintain a large amount of infrastructure in the form of "blocking" POSes in order to prevent attackers from "spamming" systems with POS to gain a moon-majority and take sov; meanwhile, attackers were driven to find ways to out-maneuver their enemies by finding systems where they could expend a bunch of effort, erect a ton of POS, and gain a strategic foothold overnight. This was not easy and exposed lots of people and expensive assets in the process (ask xttz about how many Rorquals we used to lose during POS wars). Hell, even the defenders had to keep their towers fueled, which meant actually sending people around in spaceships.
People will always ***** about how trying it is to grind down another determined group of players, but despite their whining it's what they want to log in and do. It's like climbing some Himalayan peak: yes, it's a massive undertaking. Yes, people talk about how much of a slog it is. Still, a ton of people fantasize about it (highsec dwellers, non-EVE players reading in the media, etc), a considerable number of people go and attempt it (nullsec residents), and some people manage to accomplish it (successful nullsec residents). The fact that players report that "it's hard," or, "it's time-consuming," or, "it's frustrating" aren't necessarily bad things: all these things inspire the spergiest and most competitive players to compete.
What's awful is when systems are boring. Dominion sov is boring: timers can't be manipulated, the fights all occur at one specific time of day (and then nothing happens for literally 36 hours or more at a time, because there are no defense / attack-related activities to disrupt!). There's no great POS networks for a defender to physically go out and construct / maintain (just a couple of sov structures with automated billing), no reason for the attacker to execute some sort of logistical coup to grab a foothold in hostile space (rather, all they need are some blockade runners with SBUs) and there's very little to do outside of the two relevant structure timer-fights.
TL;DR: the old sov system felt a bit absurd at times because of the very high POS counts in systems with tons of moons, but at least it was *interesting*: it required significant logistical efforts on both sides and involved a more-constant back-and-forth between the attackers and defenders as both struggled to physically maintain their infrastructure and contest and manipulate (via kiting) a multitude of structure timers. Players may complain about the old POS warfare system, but the reality is that it was infinitely better than the Dominion system, and with tweaks (such as moving sov POS to planets to reduce absolute numbers) could have maintained a vibrant nullsec environment. Instead, we all complained about the "grind" of POS warfare, and were gifted an even grindier, less dynamic, less involving system instead. RIP, POS warfare. Death to the Dominion system. |
Ereshgikal
Pigs and Sows
18
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 14:29:00 -
[1185] - Quote
Elric Darkmoor wrote:I think maybe i don't know enough about POS and Moon mining operations, and although i have been looking to see this mention in the thread, i have not noticed it.
But would the POS Guns not blow up the ship trying to deploy the syphon before the pilot gets to deploy it?
Lock time of unmanned POS guns is measured in the same scale as geological shifts. You can safely land uncloaked on POS grid with cruiser, align out, drop siphon, warp. Some small faction gun batteries might have had time to lock you during that time, but not warp disruptor/scram batteries. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1464
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 14:57:00 -
[1186] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Lots of good stuff
The troubling issue with these siphons is that it demonstrates not only a lack of lessons learned from previous timer and structure systems, but a complete lack of awareness of even the basic dimensions of the issue. Considering that the entire game hinges on the designers ability to encourage fun emergent interaction, it basically means that there is either no one left at CCP who even understands the fundamental theories and ideas that make eve successful or their success was and continues to be completely accidental.
It is obvious that the thought process wasn't "What was good and bad about pos? What was good and bad about dominion? Where can we go with the lessons learned?", rather it was "what is some tangential sop to our sophomoric understanding of the issues with nullsec gameplay that fits into our "running around putting out fires" model of game development?".
It demonstrates that this game is ultimately doomed because CCP has either lost or never had the institutional culture requisite to handle the segment of the industry that they apparently stumbled blindly into. Now all they are doing is babysitting a game in decline, while randomly throwing **** at the wall in response to "game through a pinhole" survey feedback.
In the end someone else with some balls and vision will come along and take what CCP got right ten years ago, and make something good and progressive out of it, and CCP will have no one to blame but themselves.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 15:48:00 -
[1187] - Quote
I caught the first 3rd of this thread and then had to break for the weekend, so if I miss some critical info forgive me.
Lets recap:
The Siphon is designed for use in low population systems. It's use is highly problematic in populated systems due to the ease of detecting it on any DScan or probe sweep, and removing the materials and destroying them once detected is a trivial matter.
Couple this with the fact that they only have storage capacity for 1 or 2 days maximum and this ensures that they can not be used as a "fire and forget" economic weapon. Mass deployment of these items, while not impossible, would require a massive commitment in manpower and time to be effective.
Perhaps the most effective large scale use of these items is to impact market prices due to the 20% loss incurred with their use. However ease of detection and destruction, along with the need for frequent emptying to prevent the siphon going dead, means that practically speaking only a fraction of that theoretical 20% will ever actually be lost.
Used on a smaller scale, in systems where there is little traffic, siphons serve as an excellent "wealth redistribution system"... which is their intended use. The strongly encourage entities to maintain a friendly presence in the systems where moon mining is taking place. This does not necessarily need to be the actual POS owner, it simply needs to be a friendly entity that would be willing to take a few minutes to destroy the siphons whenever detected in the course of their other activities. The fact that anyone can take materials from them also enhances their role in redistributing wealth.
Since these units will be at their most effective when used on moon mining POS's in empty systems that are also rarely checked by their owners the one element that makes them practical at all is the ability to mask their siphoning activities from the POS sensors... either by removing the materials after the last check by the system, or more likely by electronically masking the POS's ability to notice the discrepancy. The main threat to a siphon deployed in such an isolated system is to be detected via remote monitoring, thus they have a necessary defense against this type of detection.
The latter is actually a very good mechanic from a game play point of view. It means that even if your moon mining operation is in a remote system you will need to check it periodically to ensure it is siphon free. It is a strong encouragement to place your the bulk of your mining operations in area's with a resident population where you (or more likely others) can physically keep tabs on them during the normal course of their day to day activities. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
706
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 15:50:00 -
[1188] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Lots of good stuff The troubling issue with these siphons is that it demonstrates not only a lack of lessons learned from previous timer and structure systems, but a complete lack of awareness of even the basic dimensions of the issue. Considering that the entire game hinges on the designers ability to encourage fun emergent interaction, it basically means that there is either no one left at CCP who even understands the fundamental theories and ideas that make eve successful or their success was and continues to be completely accidental. It is obvious that the thought process wasn't "What was good and bad about pos? What was good and bad about dominion? Where can we go with the lessons learned?", rather it was "what is some tangential sop to our sophomoric understanding of the issues with nullsec gameplay that fits into our "running around putting out fires" model of game development?". It demonstrates that this game is ultimately doomed because CCP has either lost or never had the institutional culture requisite to handle the segment of the industry that they apparently stumbled blindly into. Now all they are doing is babysitting a game in decline, while randomly throwing **** at the wall in response to "game through a pinhole" survey feedback. In the end someone else with some balls and vision will come along and take what CCP got right ten years ago and make something good and progressive out of it, and CCP will have no one to blame but themselves.
Yeah, pretty much.
If CCP don't revitalize nullsec with some fairly sweeping changes then this game is just going to disappear over the next couple of years. Games like Star Citizen are going to leave EVE in the dust when it comes to fulfulling pubbies' desire for a super-detailed sci-fi RPG (as a single-player / not-quite-MMO multiplayer experience, that game looks like it will be fantastic) and most of the spergy, competitive players I know from EVE have moved on to playing mostly other things (MWO, War Thunder, Planetside 2). You know, places where you can actually go and experience game content on a daily basis.
I can't help but think that EVE is about a year away from obscurity unless CCP can actually revamp nullsec by this coming summer's expansion: if sperges don't play because the game mechanics actively stifle competition, and the casual players are pulled away by a more immersive and atmospheric game, then who's left playing EVE? Nobody. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
706
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 15:54:00 -
[1189] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I caught the first 3rd of this thread and then had to break for the weekend, so if I miss some critical info forgive me.
Lets recap:
The Siphon is designed for use in low population systems. It's use is highly problematic in populated systems due to the ease of detecting it on any DScan or probe sweep, and removing the materials and destroying them once detected is a trivial matter.
Couple this with the fact that they only have storage capacity for 1 or 2 days maximum and this ensures that they can not be used as a "fire and forget" economic weapon. Mass deployment of these items, while not impossible, would require a massive commitment in manpower and time to be effective.
Perhaps the most effective large scale use of these items is to impact market prices due to the 20% loss incurred with their use. However ease of detection and destruction, along with the need for frequent emptying to prevent the siphon going dead, means that practically speaking only a fraction of that theoretical 20% will ever actually be lost.
Used on a smaller scale, in systems where there is little traffic, siphons serve as an excellent "wealth redistribution system"... which is their intended use. The strongly encourage entities to maintain a friendly presence in the systems where moon mining is taking place. This does not necessarily need to be the actual POS owner, it simply needs to be a friendly entity that would be willing to take a few minutes to destroy the siphons whenever detected in the course of their other activities. The fact that anyone can take materials from them also enhances their role in redistributing wealth.
Since these units will be at their most effective when used on moon mining POS's in empty systems that are also rarely checked by their owners the one element that makes them practical at all is the ability to mask their siphoning activities from the POS sensors... either by removing the materials after the last check by the system, or more likely by electronically masking the POS's ability to notice the discrepancy. The main threat to a siphon deployed in such an isolated system is to be detected via remote monitoring, thus they have a necessary defense against this type of detection.
The latter is actually a very good mechanic from a game play point of view. It means that even if your moon mining operation is in a remote system you will need to check it periodically to ensure it is siphon free. It is a strong encouragement to place your the bulk of your mining operations in area's with a resident population where you (or more likely others) can physically keep tabs on them during the normal course of their day to day activities.
Literally every point you've tried to make here is wrong. You are wrong about everything. Let that sink in for a minute. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
802
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 15:56:00 -
[1190] - Quote
I want a mechanic to make people check all their market orders in person to make sure someone isn't embezzling them. It creates more emergent game content if you have to actually travel to the stations you're doing business in because you might have to engage wardecs, etc. Why should you get to use all these highsec stations you aren't actually living in?
|
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 16:01:00 -
[1191] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Varius Xeral wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Lots of good stuff The troubling issue with these siphons is that it demonstrates not only a lack of lessons learned from previous timer and structure systems, but a complete lack of awareness of even the basic dimensions of the issue. Considering that the entire game hinges on the designers ability to encourage fun emergent interaction, it basically means that there is either no one left at CCP who even understands the fundamental theories and ideas that make eve successful or their success was and continues to be completely accidental. It is obvious that the thought process wasn't "What was good and bad about pos? What was good and bad about dominion? Where can we go with the lessons learned?", rather it was "what is some tangential sop to our sophomoric understanding of the issues with nullsec gameplay that fits into our "running around putting out fires" model of game development?". It demonstrates that this game is ultimately doomed because CCP has either lost or never had the institutional culture requisite to handle the segment of the industry that they apparently stumbled blindly into. Now all they are doing is babysitting a game in decline, while randomly throwing **** at the wall in response to "game through a pinhole" survey feedback. In the end someone else with some balls and vision will come along and take what CCP got right ten years ago and make something good and progressive out of it, and CCP will have no one to blame but themselves. Yeah, pretty much. If CCP don't revitalize nullsec with some fairly sweeping changes then this game is just going to disappear over the next couple of years. Games like Star Citizen are going to leave EVE in the dust when it comes to fulfulling pubbies' desire for a super-detailed sci-fi RPG (as a single-player / not-quite-MMO multiplayer experience, that game looks like it will be fantastic) and most of the spergy, competitive players I know from EVE have moved on to playing mostly other things (MWO, War Thunder, Planetside 2). You know, places where you can actually go and experience game content on a daily basis. I can't help but think that EVE is about a year away from obscurity unless CCP can actually revamp nullsec by this coming summer's expansion: if sperges don't play because the game mechanics actively stifle competition, and the casual players are pulled away by a more immersive and atmospheric game, then who's left playing EVE? Nobody. Or CCP is well aware of what was good and bad about POS warfare, and have specifically crafted this mechanic to avoid the tedium of timers, massive hit points to chew through, and general boredom involved... and encourage small gang/solo objectives (both economic and physical combat) that can be staged in a timezone asymmetrical fashion without the need of timers.
This pretty much nails the direction we (Goonswarm included) have been begging CCP to go for the last several years. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 16:02:00 -
[1192] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:I caught the first 3rd of this thread and then had to break for the weekend, so if I miss some critical info forgive me.
Lets recap:
The Siphon is designed for use in low population systems. It's use is highly problematic in populated systems due to the ease of detecting it on any DScan or probe sweep, and removing the materials and destroying them once detected is a trivial matter.
Couple this with the fact that they only have storage capacity for 1 or 2 days maximum and this ensures that they can not be used as a "fire and forget" economic weapon. Mass deployment of these items, while not impossible, would require a massive commitment in manpower and time to be effective.
Perhaps the most effective large scale use of these items is to impact market prices due to the 20% loss incurred with their use. However ease of detection and destruction, along with the need for frequent emptying to prevent the siphon going dead, means that practically speaking only a fraction of that theoretical 20% will ever actually be lost.
Used on a smaller scale, in systems where there is little traffic, siphons serve as an excellent "wealth redistribution system"... which is their intended use. The strongly encourage entities to maintain a friendly presence in the systems where moon mining is taking place. This does not necessarily need to be the actual POS owner, it simply needs to be a friendly entity that would be willing to take a few minutes to destroy the siphons whenever detected in the course of their other activities. The fact that anyone can take materials from them also enhances their role in redistributing wealth.
Since these units will be at their most effective when used on moon mining POS's in empty systems that are also rarely checked by their owners the one element that makes them practical at all is the ability to mask their siphoning activities from the POS sensors... either by removing the materials after the last check by the system, or more likely by electronically masking the POS's ability to notice the discrepancy. The main threat to a siphon deployed in such an isolated system is to be detected via remote monitoring, thus they have a necessary defense against this type of detection.
The latter is actually a very good mechanic from a game play point of view. It means that even if your moon mining operation is in a remote system you will need to check it periodically to ensure it is siphon free. It is a strong encouragement to place your the bulk of your mining operations in area's with a resident population where you (or more likely others) can physically keep tabs on them during the normal course of their day to day activities. Literally every point you've tried to make here is wrong. You are wrong about everything. Let that sink in for a minute. I think time will prove otherwise. We shall see my friend.
Your predicted impact on moon mineral supplies have a few glaring flaws for starters. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1400
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 16:44:00 -
[1193] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:One of the main things we have needed are small scale mechanics and objectives for combat (normal or economical) that do not require a blob to engage in. The ability for small groups or solo players to both deploy these and also to steal from/detect/destroy them is actually an excellent step in the right direction.
Ranger 1 wrote:Or CCP is well aware of what was good and bad about POS warfare, and have specifically crafted this mechanic to avoid the tedium of timers, massive hit points to chew through, and general boredom involved... and encourage small gang/solo objectives (both economic and physical combat) that can be staged in a timezone asymmetrical fashion without the need of timers.
This pretty much nails the direction we (Goonswarm included) have been begging CCP to go for the last several years.
This thing will not result in any increase in small gang fights whatsoever, it provides no opportunities or incentives for it.
Small gang combat won't happen for the attacker, as the siphons can be dropped by the dozen from a covops or a nullified interceptor. Small gang combat won't happen for the defender, as the siphon can be killed by POS guns. You won't be able to defend your dropped siphon, as you're under fire from POS guns. The only potential change that may happen is that a gang going into enemy space anyway might carry a couple of these just to add to their annoyance factor. But since they're going to small gang PvP anyway, the siphon does nothing to generate more fights.
The only PvP this could lead to is you cloaking in a bomber on the siphon and bombing the hauler that comes to scoop the goo. If that's your definition of "small gang PvP", then we have some very different ideas about what we're talking about.
The only thing the siphons do is make it even more of a pain in the ass to run a POS through horrible and unfun game mechanics, as you're now required to check on it every few hours to see if your production isn't completely shut down. Except for the few POSes in major ratting/trading hubs when you might or might not get a few benevolent members occasionally d-scanning for these things, POS owners everywhere else will probably just want to kill themselves after a few months of this.
If that is the true intent of this mechanic, then it's on the same level of stupidity as "nerf highsec to get more people to move to nullsec", and will achieve about the same results.
Here is the optimal way to deal with the siphons: Stage a trial alt at every POS you own. Log the alt in every hour to check for siphons. If found, come over with a real char with POSgunning trained and blap the siphon. But obviously no one person can be around 24/7 to log in to the watcher alts every hour. So share the alts' accounts/passwords with your POS team, and have them take shifts. There you go, the best way to counter this is a) alt proliferation, b) breaking the EULA, c) turning the game into a boring and pointless job.
Remember, EVE is still a game. The main design goal should be for both sides to have fun. The winner should be the person better at the game, not the one who is able to endure more tedium. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
709
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 16:48:00 -
[1194] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: Or CCP is well aware of what was good and bad about POS warfare, and have specifically crafted this mechanic to avoid the tedium of timers, massive hit points to chew through, and general boredom involved... and encourage small gang/solo objectives (both economic and physical combat) that can be staged in a timezone asymmetrical fashion without the need of timers.
This pretty much nails the direction we (Goonswarm included) have been begging CCP to go for the last several years.
Seriously? Have you read any of this thread? People have already explained numerous times why this "mechanic" will do nothing for the game other than vaporize a portion of the existing moon goo.
How can you even interpret the siphon mechanic as a "small gang objective?" It's an unattended module that you push out of your ship next to an unattended structure. Scenario A: your module sits there and does it's thing unattended while you're logged out, then you come back to an unattended structure and pull goop out of it. Scenario B: your module gets noticed and blown up while you're offline, you come back and find empty space next to an unattended structure.
Claiming that siphons add interesting gameplay or small gang objectives is like saying ghost-capping in PS2 is fun... fly around through deserted space, sit on this structure for a minute or two, move on to the next abandoned structure.
The fact is, there are already ways to disrupt nullsec moneymaking: reinforce mining POSes, actively hunt down and kill PvEers and industrialists (if there are any around, that is). CCP need to be giving people reasons to live in their space and present themselves as targets to other people, not another reason in a long list of reasons why trying to make a living in nullsec is irritating and impractical. Fun in this game comes from direct player-player interaction, not having yet-more structure scouting/shooting to deal with. No reinforcement timers on siphons means no fights, even when they are found (not that anyone would bother defending a 10m isk structure anyway). It's a stupid mechanic in every respect.
As far as the mineral price speculations go, those aren't my predictions: they come from a group of people that have been consistently predicting the economic outcomes of EVE changes for years now... not that it's hard to predict given that CCP tell you right up front how much material will be evaporated by the siphons. That leaves only the question of how widespread siphon usage will be... and given that they're going to cost 10m isk and be insanely annoying, my guess is we can safely assume usage will be fairly pervasive. I know our blackops group will probably use them by the hundreds, and that's just one group of 20-30 active players... |
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
146
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 17:06:00 -
[1195] - Quote
My conspiracy theory is, that CCP wants to sell more plexes by nerfing income.
To be serious. We all will use syphons to get our cut especially after the first rush phase. But owners of reaction POSes in low will shutdown the bussiness. It's good for 0.0 alliances and the reaction POSes there. The prices will be at least raise with 30% but I bet they will be twice as high as todays prices. No one is able to protect a POS 24/7 and even a POS in 0.0 will have losses, but the raw mats are comming from moons and don't have to buy from Jita. With a little bit more effort, 0.0 alliances are the king of the hill again. The ISK will flowing like streams into the wallets.
|
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 17:16:00 -
[1196] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:... You have to leave the matrix and gank the architect of the whole system
Or, just make money for them and get special scorpions.... How does Scripture go? "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?" |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 17:46:00 -
[1197] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: Or CCP is well aware of what was good and bad about POS warfare, and have specifically crafted this mechanic to avoid the tedium of timers, massive hit points to chew through, and general boredom involved... and encourage small gang/solo objectives (both economic and physical combat) that can be staged in a timezone asymmetrical fashion without the need of timers.
This pretty much nails the direction we (Goonswarm included) have been begging CCP to go for the last several years.
Seriously? Have you read any of this thread? People have already explained numerous times why this "mechanic" will do nothing for the game other than vaporize a portion of the existing moon goo. How can you even interpret the siphon mechanic as a "small gang objective?" It's an unattended module that you push out of your ship next to an unattended structure. Scenario A: your module sits there and does its thing unattended while you're logged out, then you come back to an unattended structure and pull goop out of it. Scenario B: your module gets noticed and blown up while you're offline, you come back and find empty space next to an unattended structure. Claiming that siphons add interesting gameplay or small gang objectives is like saying ghost-capping in PS2 is fun... fly around through deserted space, sit on this structure for a minute or two, move on to the next abandoned structure. The fact is, there are already ways to disrupt nullsec moneymaking: reinforce mining POSes, actively hunt down and kill PvEers and industrialists (if there are any around, that is). CCP need to be giving people reasons to live in their space and present themselves as targets to other people, not another reason in a long list of reasons why trying to make a living in nullsec is irritating and impractical. Fun in this game comes from direct player-player interaction, not having yet-more structure scouting/shooting to deal with. No reinforcement timers on siphons means no fights, even when they are found (not that anyone would bother defending a 10m isk structure anyway). It's a stupid mechanic in every respect. As far as the mineral price speculations go, those aren't my predictions: they come from a group of people that have been consistently predicting the economic outcomes of EVE changes for years now... not that it's hard to predict given that CCP tell you right up front how much material will be evaporated by the siphons. That leaves only the question of how widespread siphon usage will be... and given that they're going to cost 10m isk and be insanely annoying, my guess is we can safely assume usage will be fairly pervasive. I know our blackops group will probably use them by the hundreds, and that's just one group of 20-30 active players... Yes, I've read this thread. I don't agree with the assumptions that have been put forward.
As far as small scale encounters go, remember I said economic as well as physical combat.
The ability of a solo player or small group to wage economic warfare is self explanatory. If done correctly, in isolated systems, a small organization stands to have a good shot at enjoying a new mini profession at someone else's expense.
Physical combat comes into play in trying to nail the ship that drops off and every day or so has to empty the siphon. Particularly the latter is going to require a blockade runner, and should make for some interesting small scale sport. Of course, if you're feeling particularly lazy, you can just go kill the siphons it drops off... but that's not as entertaining as decloaking and popping them on a gate.
From a practical point of view, if you are spotted entering your target system to drop off siphons you might as well just move on. Deploying them will be a complete waste of time and money. And we both know that this will be the most common outcome.
As far as coming out with alternate mechanics that do not depend on timers... timers have always been regarded as a necessary evil.... and they are for many things. However the siphon units fall into a different category and are geared toward small scale economic warfare and a hunt/evade style of combat, which means (thank god) that you don't have to wait for a timer to engage in the game play. More of this type of thing would be better, and that opinion has been held since the POS and Sov system was initially implemented.
As to their impact on moon goo supplies, well, it's very easy to point to 20% and say that is the effect it will have. But you know as well as I do that 20% is a theoretical maximum that will never be achieved. It assumes that siphons are deployed on every valuable moon in EVE (which is doable with some effort) but also assumes that they are all left unmolested for their entire cycle... and that they are all emptied promptly upon being filled.
You know as well as I do that will never happen. Siphons will get blown up within a few hours (if not minutes) of being deployed. Even if your teams unceasingly deploy siphons and collect loot with perfect timing, you will never approach that perfect 20%. After the first 2 or 3 weeks you'll be lucky to reduce the overall supply of moon goo by more than a fraction of that. Pointing at 20% and saying that will be the impact of your efforts is very (hopefully not deliberately) misleading.
I say that because I hope that this isn't deliberate, and that you simply have taken all of the realities of the situation into account. Otherwise that would mean that you are simply throwing up a smoke screen to try to turn around a mechanic that would be unfavorable to you... and contrary to what most would say I don't usually see you folks doing that.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Jimmy Farrere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 17:57:00 -
[1198] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: Yes, I've read this thread. I don't agree with the assumptions that have been put forward.
As far as small scale encounters go, remember I said economic as well as physical combat.
The ability of a solo player or small group to wage economic warfare is self explanatory. If done correctly, in isolated systems, a small organization stands to have a good shot at enjoying a new mini profession at someone else's expense.
Physical combat comes into play in trying to nail the ship that drops off and every day or so has to empty the siphon. Particularly the latter is going to require a blockade runner, and should make for some interesting small scale sport. Of course, if you're feeling particularly lazy, you can just go kill the siphons it drops off... but that's not as entertaining as decloaking and popping them on a gate.
From a practical point of view, if you are spotted entering your target system to drop off siphons you might as well just move on. Deploying them will be a complete waste of time and money. And we both know that this will be the most common outcome.
As far as coming out with alternate mechanics that do not depend on timers... timers have always been regarded as a necessary evil.... and they are for many things. However the siphon units fall into a different category and are geared toward small scale economic warfare and a hunt/evade style of combat, which means (thank god) that you don't have to wait for a timer to engage in the game play. More of this type of thing would be better, and that opinion has been held since the POS and Sov system was initially implemented.
As to their impact on moon goo supplies, well, it's very easy to point to 20% and say that is the effect it will have. But you know as well as I do that 20% is a theoretical maximum that will never be achieved. It assumes that siphons are deployed on every valuable moon in EVE (which is doable with some effort) but also assumes that they are all left unmolested for their entire cycle... and that they are all emptied promptly upon being filled.
You know as well as I do that will never happen. Siphons will get blown up within a few hours (if not minutes) of being deployed. Even if your teams unceasingly deploy siphons and collect loot with perfect timing, you will never approach that perfect 20%. After the first 2 or 3 weeks you'll be lucky to reduce the overall supply of moon goo by more than a fraction of that. Pointing at 20% and saying that will be the impact of your efforts is very (hopefully not deliberately) misleading.
I say that because I hope that this isn't deliberate, and that you simply have taken all of the realities of the situation into account. Otherwise that would mean that you are simply throwing up a smoke screen to try to turn around a mechanic that would be unfavorable to you... and contrary to what most would say I don't usually see you folks doing that.
Ganthrithor wrote:Literally every point you've tried to make here is wrong. You are wrong about everything. Let that sink in for a minute. |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 18:03:00 -
[1199] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Herr Esiq wrote:... And you can"t see the difference between a 'personal character monitor' and a 'automated alliance tool that monotors a complete empire like HAL 9000'.
You really cant can you? Hmm, let me think about that for a moment. Yeah, no quite sure Mittens doesn't have such a tool, I mean I am sure Digi would LOVE such a tool in his never ending quest to find spies. GoonWACS: Goon Warning And Control System |
Jimmy Farrere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 18:10:00 -
[1200] - Quote
Oh yeah, and after reading that gumpf I nearly forgot that I came here to request again that if nothing else is changed at least make these things much, much bigger. The only chance of these creating any kind of PvP content is if you can't drop a shedload of them from a interceptor, bomber or cov-ops. |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 18:17:00 -
[1201] - Quote
Jimmy Farrere wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: Yes, I've read this thread. I don't agree with the assumptions that have been put forward.
As far as small scale encounters go, remember I said economic as well as physical combat.
The ability of a solo player or small group to wage economic warfare is self explanatory. If done correctly, in isolated systems, a small organization stands to have a good shot at enjoying a new mini profession at someone else's expense.
Physical combat comes into play in trying to nail the ship that drops off and every day or so has to empty the siphon. Particularly the latter is going to require a blockade runner, and should make for some interesting small scale sport. Of course, if you're feeling particularly lazy, you can just go kill the siphons it drops off... but that's not as entertaining as decloaking and popping them on a gate.
From a practical point of view, if you are spotted entering your target system to drop off siphons you might as well just move on. Deploying them will be a complete waste of time and money. And we both know that this will be the most common outcome.
As far as coming out with alternate mechanics that do not depend on timers... timers have always been regarded as a necessary evil.... and they are for many things. However the siphon units fall into a different category and are geared toward small scale economic warfare and a hunt/evade style of combat, which means (thank god) that you don't have to wait for a timer to engage in the game play. More of this type of thing would be better, and that opinion has been held since the POS and Sov system was initially implemented.
As to their impact on moon goo supplies, well, it's very easy to point to 20% and say that is the effect it will have. But you know as well as I do that 20% is a theoretical maximum that will never be achieved. It assumes that siphons are deployed on every valuable moon in EVE (which is doable with some effort) but also assumes that they are all left unmolested for their entire cycle... and that they are all emptied promptly upon being filled.
You know as well as I do that will never happen. Siphons will get blown up within a few hours (if not minutes) of being deployed. Even if your teams unceasingly deploy siphons and collect loot with perfect timing, you will never approach that perfect 20%. After the first 2 or 3 weeks you'll be lucky to reduce the overall supply of moon goo by more than a fraction of that. Pointing at 20% and saying that will be the impact of your efforts is very (hopefully not deliberately) misleading.
I say that because I hope that this isn't deliberate, and that you simply have taken all of the realities of the situation into account. Otherwise that would mean that you are simply throwing up a smoke screen to try to turn around a mechanic that would be unfavorable to you... and contrary to what most would say I don't usually see you folks doing that.
Ganthrithor wrote:Literally every point you've tried to make here is wrong. You are wrong about everything. Let that sink in for a minute. Anything is possible.
I'll happily admit to underestimating the tenacity of Goon Swarm in the face of overwhelming tedium, and their capacity for laser perfect timing, if the supplies of Moon Goo drop by 20% and stay there.
I'll also admit to being wrong if the general activity level in Null and Low sec doesn't increase as a result of this mechanic.
I suspect that a few tweaks to the numbers will happen either before or shortly after Rubicon launches, but that the basic mechanic will remain. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
715
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 18:22:00 -
[1202] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: Yes, I've read this thread. I don't agree with the assumptions that have been put forward.
As far as small scale encounters go, remember I said economic as well as physical combat.
The ability of a solo player or small group to wage economic warfare is self explanatory. If done correctly, in isolated systems, a small organization stands to have a good shot at enjoying a new mini profession at someone else's expense.
Physical combat comes into play in trying to nail the ship that drops off and every day or so has to empty the siphon. Particularly the latter is going to require a blockade runner, and should make for some interesting small scale sport. Of course, if you're feeling particularly lazy, you can just go kill the siphons it drops off... but that's not as entertaining as decloaking and popping them on a gate.
From a practical point of view, if you are spotted entering your target system to drop off siphons you might as well just move on. Deploying them will be a complete waste of time and money. And we both know that this will be the most common outcome.
As far as coming out with alternate mechanics that do not depend on timers... timers have always been regarded as a necessary evil.... and they are for many things. However the siphon units fall into a different category and are geared toward small scale economic warfare and a hunt/evade style of combat, which means (thank god) that you don't have to wait for a timer to engage in the game play. More of this type of thing would be better, and that opinion has been held since the POS and Sov system was initially implemented.
As to their impact on moon goo supplies, well, it's very easy to point to 20% and say that is the effect it will have. But you know as well as I do that 20% is a theoretical maximum that will never be achieved. It assumes that siphons are deployed on every valuable moon in EVE (which is doable with some effort) but also assumes that they are all left unmolested for their entire cycle... and that they are all emptied promptly upon being filled.
You know as well as I do that will never happen. Siphons will get blown up within a few hours (if not minutes) of being deployed. Even if your teams unceasingly deploy siphons and collect loot with perfect timing, you will never approach that perfect 20%. After the first 2 or 3 weeks you'll be lucky to reduce the overall supply of moon goo by more than a fraction of that. Pointing at 20% and saying that will be the impact of your efforts is very (hopefully not deliberately) misleading.
I say that because I hope that this isn't deliberate, and that you simply have taken all of the realities of the situation into account. Otherwise that would mean that you are simply throwing up a smoke screen to try to turn around a mechanic that would be unfavorable to you... and contrary to what most would say I don't usually see you folks doing that.
Look, here's the deal. Based on your own assumptions, it seems like you are the kind of player you keep talking about when you refer to "little guys" practicing "economic warfare." It seems like you don't have much experience playing with sizable groups of other players, and you may or may not have experience in nullsec at all. If you did have experience in nullsec, you'd know that:
- There's already room for small gangs to conduct economic warfare in hostile space. This is done by hunting and killing ratters, industrialists, random travelers, and basically anything else that floats through space alone or in small numbers. It can also be accomplished by doing nasty things like relisting: buying up in-demand commodities in nullsec stations (in their entirety where possible) and re-listing them at higher prices, forcing people to overpay for their ships and gear and funneling that profit into your own wallet.
- Nobody is going to hang around for days at a time in hopes of possibly catching some hostile in a blockade runner that's come to loot a siphon: it's absolutely not worth doing, since you can easily retrieve your stuff from the siphon and then destroy it rather than spending ~48 hours in a Sabre poopsocking a structure, hoping that you'll be watching the screen at the exact moment some fool decloaks their hauler for 3 seconds to do a drive-by pickup. It's seriously not going to happen. The spergiest of spergs can sometimes be motivated to camp things for days at a time in hopes of a cap or supercap kill, but nobody is going to bother to do so over a possible Prowler kill.
- Have you ever even been to nullsec? Let me give you a clue: your average nullsec resident is not very situationally aware. Someone running around planting siphons is just one more hostile drifting through a region: ratters will safe up momentarily until you leave, then go back to ratting. I've moved supercaps through null without being noticed, to think this won't be possible with a blockade runner dropping modules that leave no overt traces is ridiculous.
- This siphon proposal doesn't involve any "gameplay" at all: your use of that term in this discussion is overly-generous to CCP. Pushing a module out of your ship isn't gameplay any more than anchoring a drag bubble is. It's the stuff that happens as a result of anchoring a drag bubble that constitutes gameplay: siphons make no such promises.
|
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
715
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 18:23:00 -
[1203] - Quote
And finally, because I ran out of characters:
- You don't seem to understand economics very well. People aren't talking about ideal scenarios in which you are able to loot all the goo scraped by a siphon (obviously this will often be impossible or even undesired). What people are talking about with regard to a given price increase is the portion of moon goo destroyed by the siphons as part of their normal operation. If half the bottleneck moons in EVE are being siphoned half of the time, and a fixed percentage of that material just evaporates rather than making it to market in the hands of the rightful owner or the thief, then supply has gone down. Period. Given the same demand, reduced supply means prices go up.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 18:26:00 -
[1204] - Quote
Jimmy Farrere wrote:Oh yeah, and after reading that gumpf I nearly forgot that I came here to request again that if nothing else is changed at least make these things much, much bigger. The only chance of these creating any kind of PvP content is if you can't drop a shedload of them from a interceptor, bomber or cov-ops. How are you going to empty them? Are you going to arrange a covert cyno and bridge into every system that needs a siphon emptied every day or two? Or do you feel confident that your Blockade Runner can safely navigate from high end moon goo system to high end moon goo system (and their accompanying bubble camps) to retrieve it all and return home? To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
217
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 18:40:00 -
[1205] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
I spent the weekend pondering this change. Initially, I wasn't real keen on it, but it has grown one me. Reducing the waste factor will definately not be so destructive to the moon goo economy, so I think that will be a positive aspect. As far as the limit goes, I also wasn't a big fan, but I think it is more doable than I previously thought. Perhaps, making it more 10-20 might be a better spread.
I do have a couple suggestions, ones that probably most people won't like:
1. This is something that would be ideal to attach a mini-game to. Something to where the timing of the mini-game puts it at some risk to POS modules. Not sure if the Hacking skillset should be used, but it might be a nice PVP application of the skill. A change of that nature would a.) Limit this size of ship used for dropping of Siphons (and thus cargo space) and b.) appropriately increase the risk of putting a siphon on a POS.
2. I would like a faster cycle time, and higher pull rate. But in exchange for that, there has to be more interaction with the Siphon to keep it going. I am agreeing with some who have posted that this shouldn't be a "passive" activity. It should require some maintenance of some sort, either a fuel bay for a quick 6-8 hours run or a mini-game that requires you to recalibrate the siphon, something of that nature.
Pretty sure most people will hate my thoughts on that, but I think it would improve the "game" aspect of it as well as make it an actual tool.. not a "fire and forget" structure module. He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 18:45:00 -
[1206] - Quote
Quote:
- There's already room for small gangs to conduct economic warfare in hostile space. This is done by hunting and killing ratters, industrialists, random travelers, and basically anything else that floats through space alone or in small numbers. It can also be accomplished by doing nasty things like relisting: buying up in-demand commodities in nullsec stations (in their entirety where possible) and re-listing them at higher prices, forcing people to overpay for their ships and gear and funneling that profit into your own wallet.
- Nobody is going to hang around for days at a time in hopes of possibly catching some hostile in a blockade runner that's come to loot a siphon: it's absolutely not worth doing, since you can easily retrieve your stuff from the siphon and then destroy it rather than spending ~48 hours in a Sabre poopsocking a structure, hoping that you'll be watching the screen at the exact moment some fool decloaks their hauler for 3 seconds to do a drive-by pickup. It's seriously not going to happen. The spergiest of spergs can sometimes be motivated to camp things for days at a time in hopes of a cap or supercap kill, but nobody is going to bother to do so over a possible Prowler kill.
- Have you ever even been to nullsec? Let me give you a clue: your average nullsec resident is not very situationally aware. Someone running around planting siphons is just one more hostile drifting through a region: ratters will safe up momentarily until you leave, then go back to ratting. I've moved supercaps through null without being noticed, to think this won't be possible with a blockade runner dropping modules that leave no overt traces is ridiculous.
- This siphon proposal doesn't involve any "gameplay" at all: your use of that term in this discussion is overly-generous to CCP. Pushing a module out of your ship isn't gameplay any more than anchoring a drag bubble is. It's the stuff that happens as a result of anchoring a drag bubble that constitutes gameplay: siphons make no such promises.
You are making quite a few incorrect assumptions, including my level of experience with large null sec groups.
* All true, although you missed several good examples. To address the few you did list... more traffic means more targets and the simple need to empty the siphons and move those stolen goods means that there will be more traffic moving through to shoot at. Also your example to relist items in a station (quite profitable by the way) requires having an alt already docked in that station when it changes hands... hardly a mechanic that can enjoy widespread use by the masses.
* Of course you'll take your stuff out and blow up the siphon. However the person that deployed it doesn't know that. Unless he sends out a scout to check all of his siphons first, he'll be trying to sneak a nice crunchy Blockade Runner into your systems every day or two.
* Some area's have pretty bad security, you are correct... although most at least try to tighten things up in a system with a valuable moon. The nice thing is siphons are extremely easy to detect, so even those "safed up" ratters will be hard pressed NOT to notice a siphon in system as they do their anoms. Even in the worst alliances, usually someone will at least report it even if they don't want to take a few minutes and pop it themselves.
* Correct, a siphon doesn't promote as much physical combat as a bubble. However its use does mean fairly frequent visits by those using them... often needing to go through the aforementioned bubble. And if they are successful they get to wage a little economic warfare, competing in an area (Moo goo) that was formerly out of their reach. Not seeing a downside there. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 18:48:00 -
[1207] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:And finally, because I ran out of characters:
- You don't seem to understand economics very well. People aren't talking about ideal scenarios in which you are able to loot all the goo scraped by a siphon (obviously this will often be impossible or even undesired). What people are talking about with regard to a given price increase is the portion of moon goo destroyed by the siphons as part of their normal operation. If half the bottleneck moons in EVE are being siphoned half of the time, and a fixed percentage of that material just evaporates rather than making it to market in the hands of the rightful owner or the thief, then supply has gone down. Period. Given the same demand, reduced supply means prices go up.
Indeed it does, as I have pointed out myself. You'll noticed I haven't mentioned goo that you actually manage to get out of your siphons... that's pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
Half the moons, half the time.
Okay, that means that on that particular flavor of moo goo your maximum effect is a 5% reduction in supply... not 20% as has been thrown around.
Still good for you, but hardly earth shaking. Especially when you consider the effort invested to achieve that result on a long term basis.
Frankly, you'll be hard pressed to even achieve this but I don't discount your being able to pull it off. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Jimmy Farrere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 18:51:00 -
[1208] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Jimmy Farrere wrote:Oh yeah, and after reading that gumpf I nearly forgot that I came here to request again that if nothing else is changed at least make these things much, much bigger. The only chance of these creating any kind of PvP content is if you can't drop a shedload of them from a interceptor, bomber or cov-ops. How are you going to empty them? Are you going to arrange a covert cyno and bridge into every system that needs a siphon emptied every day or two? Or do you feel confident that your Blockade Runner can safely navigate from high end moon goo system to high end moon goo system (and their accompanying bubble camps) to retrieve it all and return home?
You think people will be worried about getting the goo out? It's a griefing mechanic, not a moneymaking scheme.
'So you like running that POS? I'm a US player and you're an EU, every night when you go to bed I'll double siphon your tower. Look at the great PvP this is causing.'
And FYI in the above scenario, if the siphon is looted before you wake up/get home from school or work then you lose 33% / 66% of your days output, not 5%. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1401
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 18:55:00 -
[1209] - Quote
You're still trying to argue that killing a lone blockade runner is somehow resembling small gang PvP.
You're still avoiding the elephant in the room which is forcing POS monitors to log in to the game every hour 24/7 to check for the damn things.
You also, although completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, seem to be unaware of the Marketing skill. |
Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 18:56:00 -
[1210] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
I'm late to the party, so I'm sure other people have jumped on this, but I don't think this will solve the one thing that I find problematic about it, which is that the API will now be unreliable.
Furthermore, I feel like an unreliable API is also an amazing opportunity for bugs to show up around edge cases. For example, suppose someone logs on and checks their POS inventory (which, AIUI as not a POS person can be done remotely) and then logs off again, with a siphon still attached. What will the API report? Someone will have seen the current state of the POSes, but the API doesn't actually know that. On the other hand, since they have seen them, maybe they're okay with the siphon being there or can't get to it at the moment or whatever. I'd expect the API to start reporting the correct numbers, but I'm pretty sure the API wouldn't know the ingame interface has been checked. What is your answer for what *should* happen in that case?
Also, if the game is reporting truthfully and the API is lying, I feel like this is a huge incentive for people to do questionably-allowed stuff like cache scraping. As a result, I think you should strongly consider letting the API key tell the truth and expecting a siphon alarm to be built into EVE-Reactor and the like within a week. Someone still has to show up to deal with the siphon once it's attached, and that's going to be dependent on the vagaries of the players' schedules as much as anything else.
ETA: also, a limit on siphons dropped in space at once seems like it could be trivially gamed by throwing characters which are otherwise cyno alts at the problem. |
|
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1361
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:03:00 -
[1211] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:And finally, because I ran out of characters:
- You don't seem to understand economics very well. People aren't talking about ideal scenarios in which you are able to loot all the goo scraped by a siphon (obviously this will often be impossible or even undesired). What people are talking about with regard to a given price increase is the portion of moon goo destroyed by the siphons as part of their normal operation. If half the bottleneck moons in EVE are being siphoned half of the time, and a fixed percentage of that material just evaporates rather than making it to market in the hands of the rightful owner or the thief, then supply has gone down. Period. Given the same demand, reduced supply means prices go up.
Sadly, CCP has handed your group even more riches. I really don't know if they devised this siphon business in collaboration with you, or to stop you. Doesn't really matter, goons get richer with this system.
Moon goo prices go higher, which means all T2 items get pricer, meaning more of the Eve economy is funneled through the hands of those that control the bulk of the moon goo, specifically the null sec cartels. You guys might have less product to sell, but your overall income won't be affected. That actually helps you, as it means less trips hauling product to market.
And secondly, on a somewhat on an indirect view, if you goons manage to wipe out a larger percentage of non-cartel controlled moon goo than the percentage of cartel controlled moon goo is destroyed, you win even further, as your remaining product represents a larger share of the overall pool.
I can't imagine CCP was so dumb to NOT recognize that the cartels have the critical mass of pilots able to mitigate the majority of the damage done to their production, while smaller entities, simply do not.
A group of 20,000 can more easily watch 2000 moons, than a group of 100 can watch 10, especially across multiple time zones.
Once again, CCP pushes the game further down the path of null sec cartels online.
CCP, wake up. Call it what is is. Goons have won Eve. Now acknowledge that, then blow the whole thing up. Build game mechanics that actually limit their strengths, namely the blob, and out of game tools. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
716
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:04:00 -
[1212] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Jimmy Farrere wrote:Oh yeah, and after reading that gumpf I nearly forgot that I came here to request again that if nothing else is changed at least make these things much, much bigger. The only chance of these creating any kind of PvP content is if you can't drop a shedload of them from a interceptor, bomber or cov-ops. How are you going to empty them? Are you going to arrange a covert cyno and bridge into every system that needs a siphon emptied every day or two? Or do you feel confident that your Blockade Runner can safely navigate from high end moon goo system to high end moon goo system (and their accompanying bubble camps) to retrieve it all and return home?
You act like moving a blockade runner around is some kind of magic trick... it's not hard to move a cloaking ship around, even through gatecamps (if there are any). Not to mention the fact that nobody is going to form a gatecamp just to catch your blockade runner... it's not like you're a roaming HAC gang-- you're not going to attract much attention in your solo, invisible spaceship.
Furthermore, it's not unheard of at all to covert-bridge blockade runners around when necessary. The people I play with do it fairly frequently to move fuel around: there's no reason you couldn't scoop up some moongoo on the return trip... |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:23:00 -
[1213] - Quote
Jimmy Farrere wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Jimmy Farrere wrote:Oh yeah, and after reading that gumpf I nearly forgot that I came here to request again that if nothing else is changed at least make these things much, much bigger. The only chance of these creating any kind of PvP content is if you can't drop a shedload of them from a interceptor, bomber or cov-ops. How are you going to empty them? Are you going to arrange a covert cyno and bridge into every system that needs a siphon emptied every day or two? Or do you feel confident that your Blockade Runner can safely navigate from high end moon goo system to high end moon goo system (and their accompanying bubble camps) to retrieve it all and return home? You think people will be worried about getting the goo out? It's a griefing mechanic, not a moneymaking scheme. 'So you like running that POS? I'm a US player and you're an EU, every night when you go to bed I'll double siphon your tower. Look at the great PvP this is causing.' And FYI in the above scenario, if the siphon is looted before you wake up/get home from school or work then you lose 33% / 66% of your days output, not 5%. For that day yes, and then it stops working until you come and empty it. This is the part people tend to forget about.
You MUST return and empty it every day or so otherwise, on that one tower the most damage you can hope to do is 20% (as the owner will grab the rest back if he finds it first). That's one tower, for 1 or 2 days output.
That's it until you trot yourself back out there and empty it. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:26:00 -
[1214] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:You're still trying to argue that killing a lone blockade runner is somehow resembling small gang PvP. You're still avoiding the elephant in the room which is forcing POS monitors to log in to the game every hour 24/7 to check for the damn things. That is, log in, see clear overview, log out. Repeat every hour, every day, every week. Regardless of whether there's someone actually trying to siphon you or not. Don't even try calling that "gameplay". You also, although completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, seem to be unaware of the Marketing skill. Actually, in a system with any kind of population, you don't.
Again, you forget that these are extremely easy to detect by anyone Dscanning or probing in that system.
So unless your corp/alliance/blues are complete dicks the POS owner doesn't have to do anymore than he normally does... unless it's in a secluded system. Which encourages you to live where your wealth is. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:30:00 -
[1215] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Jimmy Farrere wrote:Oh yeah, and after reading that gumpf I nearly forgot that I came here to request again that if nothing else is changed at least make these things much, much bigger. The only chance of these creating any kind of PvP content is if you can't drop a shedload of them from a interceptor, bomber or cov-ops. How are you going to empty them? Are you going to arrange a covert cyno and bridge into every system that needs a siphon emptied every day or two? Or do you feel confident that your Blockade Runner can safely navigate from high end moon goo system to high end moon goo system (and their accompanying bubble camps) to retrieve it all and return home? You act like moving a blockade runner around is some kind of magic trick... it's not hard to move a cloaking ship around, even through gatecamps (if there are any). Not to mention the fact that nobody is going to form a gatecamp just to catch your blockade runner... it's not like you're a roaming HAC gang-- you're not going to attract much attention in your solo, invisible spaceship. Furthermore, it's not unheard of at all to covert-bridge blockade runners around when necessary. The people I play with do it fairly frequently to move fuel around: there's no reason you couldn't scoop up some moongoo on the return trip... Abdiel Kavash wrote:You're still trying to argue that killing a lone blockade runner is somehow resembling small gang PvP.
You're still avoiding the elephant in the room which is forcing POS monitors to log in to the game every hour 24/7 to check for the damn things. That is, log in, see clear overview, log out. Repeat every hour, every day, every week. Regardless of whether there's someone actually trying to siphon you or not. Don't even try calling that "gameplay". This. "But guys, if you just stay logged in for two to three days with the right character watchlisted and poopsock this siphon module, you might get a BR kill!" Fantastic. Abdiel Kavash wrote:You also, although completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, seem to be unaware of the Marketing skill. Amongst other things... I know exactly how difficult it is to move a Blockade Runner through hostile null. I do it on a regular basis.
I also know how easy it is to catch one.
Also, if you're covert cynoing POS fuel around you really aren't likely to be in a position to pick up materials from a siphon you have deployed in hostile space very often.
So basically what you are saying is that you leave your moo goo systems undefended at all times.
Good to know.
When you start finding siphons on a regular basis in those systems you might consider changing that policy. Most everyone else is going to. We both know all you need is a scout, no need for everyone in system to sit on the bubble. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1403
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:40:00 -
[1216] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:You're still trying to argue that killing a lone blockade runner is somehow resembling small gang PvP. You're still avoiding the elephant in the room which is forcing POS monitors to log in to the game every hour 24/7 to check for the damn things. That is, log in, see clear overview, log out. Repeat every hour, every day, every week. Regardless of whether there's someone actually trying to siphon you or not. Don't even try calling that "gameplay". You also, although completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, seem to be unaware of the Marketing skill. Actually, in a system with any kind of population, you don't. Again, you forget that these are extremely easy to detect by anyone Dscanning or probing in that system. So unless your corp/alliance/blues are complete dicks the POS owner doesn't have to do anymore than he normally does... unless it's in a secluded system. Which encourages you to live where your wealth is. However, the distribution of systems with valuable moons is not correlated with the distributions of systems that are worthwhile sticking in for longer periods of time. Yes, in the few good ratting systems or trade hubs that actually have good moons in them, this will be less of an issue. But the majority of moons still need to be checked manually.
Do you want people to live in a majority of space? Then make a majority of space worth living in.
Do you want alliances to release moons outside of their territory to smaller entities? Do it in a way that doesn't involve stabbing POS managers in the face with a stick. This is just as dumb idea as nerfing highsec to force people to move to low/nullsec. And will have the same results. (smaller groups won't be able to cope and quit, large groups will take over in spite of the stupid mechanics.)
Ranger 1 wrote:When you start finding siphons on a regular basis in those systems you might consider changing that policy. Most everyone else is going to. We both know all you need is a scout, no need for everyone in system to sit on the bubble. Yes, all you do is one guy per system with a POS staring in the depths of space for 24 hours a day in hopes that maybe one day someone will come in a covops and drop a siphon. Exciting example of emergent gameplay. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
716
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:42:00 -
[1217] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Also, if you're covert cynoing POS fuel around you really aren't likely to be in a position to pick up materials from a siphon you have deployed in hostile space very often. So basically what you are saying is that you leave your moo goo systems undefended at all times. Good to know.
I didn't say it was POS fuel. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:44:00 -
[1218] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:You're still trying to argue that killing a lone blockade runner is somehow resembling small gang PvP. You're still avoiding the elephant in the room which is forcing POS monitors to log in to the game every hour 24/7 to check for the damn things. That is, log in, see clear overview, log out. Repeat every hour, every day, every week. Regardless of whether there's someone actually trying to siphon you or not. Don't even try calling that "gameplay". You also, although completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, seem to be unaware of the Marketing skill. Actually, in a system with any kind of population, you don't. Again, you forget that these are extremely easy to detect by anyone Dscanning or probing in that system. So unless your corp/alliance/blues are complete dicks the POS owner doesn't have to do anymore than he normally does... unless it's in a secluded system. Which encourages you to live where your wealth is. However, the distribution of systems with valuable moons is not correlated with the distributions of systems that are worthwhile sticking in for longer periods of time. Yes, in the few good ratting systems or trade hubs that actually have good moons in them, this will be less of an issue. But the majority of moons still need to be checked manually. Do you want people to live in a majority of space? Then make a majority of space worth living in. Do you want alliances to release moons outside of their territory to smaller entities? Do it in a way that doesn't involve stabbing POS managers in the face with a stick. This is just as dumb idea as nerfing highsec to force people to move to low/nullsec. And will have the same results. (smaller groups won't be able to cope and quit, large groups will take over in spite of the stupid mechanics.) I don't really consider it an unreasonable game mechanic to make it desirable to inhabit the space that is a strong revenue stream for your corp. Whether that by yourself, or with renters that monitor your towers for siphons as part of the arrangement, or by giving control of that moon to the renters and taking that into consideration in their rental payment.
Any way you slice it, it's an incentive to live in the space that generates the revenue.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1403
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:47:00 -
[1219] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I don't really consider it an unreasonable game mechanic to make it desirable to inhabit the space that is a strong revenue stream for your corp. Whether that by yourself, or with renters that monitor your towers for siphons as part of the arrangement, or by giving control of that moon to the renters and taking that into consideration in their rental payment.
Any way you slice it, it's an incentive to live in the space that generates the revenue.
Except that there's nothing to be gained for the individual(s) forced to live in the space. The siphon watch can be easily done with an alt, and real members will be much better off living in good space. This is not an incentive for an individual to move to the system with a POS. This is only a punishment for corps that don't keep one character, whether active or not, in the system. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
716
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:49:00 -
[1220] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: I don't really consider it an unreasonable game mechanic to make it desirable to inhabit the space that is a strong revenue stream for your corp. Whether that by yourself, or with renters that monitor your towers for siphons as part of the arrangement, or by giving control of that moon to the renters and taking that into consideration in their rental payment.
Any way you slice it, it's an incentive to live in the space that generates the revenue.
Well then for consistency's sake they should probably make it so that I can steal / destroy a portion of your PI goods whenever you're not looking at the PI screen. Wait, no, that wouldn't be equivalent since you can open the PI screen and check it from anywhere. How about we make it so that I can take a portion of your assets from your Jita alt whenever you're not docked in 4-4 instead. Clearly it's justified, because I had to go to all the effort of moving my covert/nullified T3 to Jita, and you couldn't even be bothered to log in your Jita alt to watch your hangar door, so you had it coming to you.
Oh wait, we can't implement that yet: we haven't figured out a way to make the API pretend that your frozen corpse collection is still there... |
|
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1404
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 19:58:00 -
[1221] - Quote
Do you want an example of an incentive to live in all of your alliance's space? Tie the IHUB upgrade anomalies/complexes to an entire constellation or even a region (obviously constrained by your sovereignty). That way, instead of in the system, a completed anomaly respawns in a random system within the constellation. Systems which are not populated will accumulate many anomalies (and high-quality anomalies, regardless of their individual truesec) over time, giving an incentive for people to go there and rat. Since individual systems will eventually run out of sites, ratters have to move from one system to another. This gives an opportunity for an enemy fleet to catch them on gates, which in turn incentivizes home defense fleet to chase them out.
This is providing an incentive. The siphon, as it currently stands, is just a slap across the face if you dare to play the game "wrong". |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
716
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 20:04:00 -
[1222] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Do you want an example of an incentive to live in all of your alliance's space? Tie the IHUB upgrade anomalies/complexes to an entire constellation or even a region (obviously constrained by your sovereignty). That way, instead of in the system, a completed anomaly respawns in a random system within the constellation. Systems which are not populated will accumulate many anomalies (and high-quality anomalies, regardless of their individual truesec) over time, giving an incentive for people to go there and rat. Since individual systems will eventually run out of sites, ratters have to move from one system to another. This gives an opportunity for an enemy fleet to catch them on gates, which in turn incentivizes home defense fleet to chase them out.
This is providing an incentive. The siphon, as it currently stands, is just a slap across the face if you dare to play the game "wrong".
I love how there are plenty of players who-- given the chance-- could sort this game out within a couple of development cycles. Meanwhile CCP either continues to hire people who have no idea what they're doing, or keeps people who know better working on stupid projects for no apparent reason. Either way, it's a sad and unsustainable state of affairs. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 20:20:00 -
[1223] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Do you want an example of an incentive to live in all of your alliance's space? Tie the IHUB upgrade anomalies/complexes to an entire constellation or even a region (obviously constrained by your sovereignty). That way, instead of in the system, a completed anomaly respawns in a random system within the constellation. Systems which are not populated will accumulate many anomalies (and high-quality anomalies, regardless of their individual truesec) over time, giving an incentive for people to go there and rat. Since individual systems will eventually run out of sites, ratters have to move from one system to another. This gives an opportunity for an enemy fleet to catch them on gates, which in turn incentivizes home defense fleet to chase them out.
This is providing an incentive. The siphon, as it currently stands, is just a slap across the face if you dare to play the game "wrong". What you propose is an excellent incentive, one (among others) that I hope to see as Null is systematically revamped.
Compared to what you propose the siphon mechanic is a relatively minor incentive, but it is an incentive none-the-less. They are not mutually exclusive.
The overall goal is to see people living in, fighting over, stealing from, and trying to travel through area's of space that provide revenue, as opposed to controlling vast tracts of virtually uninhabited space. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 20:21:00 -
[1224] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Also, if you're covert cynoing POS fuel around you really aren't likely to be in a position to pick up materials from a siphon you have deployed in hostile space very often. So basically what you are saying is that you leave your moo goo systems undefended at all times. Good to know. I didn't say it was POS fuel, friend. Fair point. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 20:23:00 -
[1225] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: I don't really consider it an unreasonable game mechanic to make it desirable to inhabit the space that is a strong revenue stream for your corp. Whether that by yourself, or with renters that monitor your towers for siphons as part of the arrangement, or by giving control of that moon to the renters and taking that into consideration in their rental payment.
Any way you slice it, it's an incentive to live in the space that generates the revenue.
Well then for consistency's sake they should probably make it so that I can steal / destroy a portion of your PI goods whenever you're not looking at the PI screen. Wait, no, that wouldn't be equivalent since you can open the PI screen and check it from anywhere. How about we make it so that I can take a portion of your assets from your Jita alt whenever you're not docked in 4-4 instead. Clearly it's justified, because I had to go to all the effort of moving my covert/nullified T3 to Jita, and you couldn't even be bothered to log in your Jita alt to watch your hangar door, so you had it coming to you. Oh wait, we can't implement that yet: we haven't figured out a way to make the API pretend that your frozen corpse collection is still there... Well, I certainly hope that the plan to be able to fight over PI resources continues to be developed. Until that time we will have to be content with people being able to leach your resources by harvesting the area's you are harvesting (directly reducing your yield) and being able to place your own POCO there and tax them how you see fit. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1405
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 20:29:00 -
[1226] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Compared to what you propose the siphon mechanic is a relatively minor incentive, but it is an incentive none-the-less. They are not mutually exclusive. The person sticking around in some backwater lowsec system gains absolutely nothing from it. They in fact lose a lot of money they could have made in a decent truesec system. The corporation gains absolutely nothing from having an actual living active person in the system, compared to just sticking a trial alt there.
Tell me again, who is incentivized and by what? |
Icesail
Applied Agoraphobia Sinewave Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 20:37:00 -
[1227] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Thank you for the clairification. Now I can lean back and enjoy POS owner tears as they now have to do more than stop by once a week to spend 3 minutes interacting with their ISK printing press. The issue here is that there are only two real forms of alliance income: moons, and renters. Renters have lead to a terribly boring 0.0 where every few months we relentlessly sodomize N3, who then retreats back to their bad space that's all rented out. All this does is make renters even more necessary, which makes it even more necessary to own all the bad regions to rent them out instead of those serving as alliance incubators.
Whoa.. Easy there.. This thread is supposed to be about the siphoning.. Not extolling us with your imaginary epeen..
CCP has made lots of changes over the years that have pissed off loads of people for different reasons.. This is a welcome change for us folks that choose not to ride the sheeple bandwagon..
Thumbs up for once CCP. Looking forward to the progression of the moon siphoning..
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4777
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 20:42:00 -
[1228] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Compared to what you propose the siphon mechanic is a relatively minor incentive, but it is an incentive none-the-less. They are not mutually exclusive. The person sticking around in some backwater lowsec system gains absolutely nothing from it. They in fact lose a lot of money they could have made in a decent truesec system. The corporation gains absolutely nothing from having an actual living active person in the system, compared to just sticking a trial alt there. Tell me again, who is incentivized and by what? They why are you not renting out the system to those that would be thrilled to live there?
Not only does it cost you nothing, brings you in rent, and puts people in place to protect your assets.
Or install a pet alliance to train up your noobs, or house your industrialists if you choose to go that route.
Of course, that's in Null. In low sec it's another story.
I will freely admit that low sec has needed some mechanics (other than factional warfare) unique to low sec to provide more reasons to live there (although it's a heck of a lot more populated than it used to be).
I have always hoped that much of low sec would turn into a sort of Barbary Coast, where empire control is feeble at best but still exists. Where crime and piracy are even more prevalent than they are now, but thrive because (mostly) honest folk are drawn there for it's unique natural resources and opportunities to exploit them in ways not allowed in empire.
Sounds like an area where the siphon mechanic would fit right in. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
S8nt
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 21:06:00 -
[1229] - Quote
With CCP hinting that they are looking at doing moon mining through moon belts how is this new feature actually going to apply to the game then?
Kinda redundant? |
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
218
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 21:22:00 -
[1230] - Quote
S8nt wrote:With CCP hinting that they are looking at doing moon mining through moon belts how is this new feature actually going to apply to the game then?
Kinda redundant?
Linky please? He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
|
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Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
65
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 21:38:00 -
[1231] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:S8nt wrote:With CCP hinting that they are looking at doing moon mining through moon belts how is this new feature actually going to apply to the game then?
Kinda redundant? Linky please? i believe it was mentioned at fanfest, should be on one of those youtube videos. <Munnkeh> i'm gonna use that excuse if i ever kill someone. "look, if you keep meeting ppl, it's bound to happen eventually" http://i.imgur.com/76pQ9.jpg |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
240
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 21:42:00 -
[1232] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:S8nt wrote:With CCP hinting that they are looking at doing moon mining through moon belts how is this new feature actually going to apply to the game then?
Kinda redundant? Linky please?
It was an idea thrown around at the last couple of fanfests. It was more of a "we might do this" rather than "we will do this".
And I'm pretty sure the developers involved with the idea are no longer working on Eve, so heh. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4904
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 21:44:00 -
[1233] - Quote
Icesail wrote:Weaselior wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Thank you for the clairification. Now I can lean back and enjoy POS owner tears as they now have to do more than stop by once a week to spend 3 minutes interacting with their ISK printing press. The issue here is that there are only two real forms of alliance income: moons, and renters. Renters have lead to a terribly boring 0.0 where every few months we relentlessly sodomize N3, who then retreats back to their bad space that's all rented out. All this does is make renters even more necessary, which makes it even more necessary to own all the bad regions to rent them out instead of those serving as alliance incubators. Whoa.. Easy there.. This thread is supposed to be about the siphoning.. Not extolling us with your imaginary epeen.. CCP has made lots of changes over the years that have pissed off loads of people for different reasons.. This is a welcome change for us folks that choose not to ride the sheeple bandwagon.. Thumbs up for once CCP. Looking forward to the progression of the moon siphoning.. yeah screw you goons
siphons for everyone There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4781
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 21:50:00 -
[1234] - Quote
xttz wrote:Orakkus wrote:S8nt wrote:With CCP hinting that they are looking at doing moon mining through moon belts how is this new feature actually going to apply to the game then?
Kinda redundant? Linky please? It was an idea thrown around at the last couple of fanfests. It was more of a " we might do this" rather than " we will do this". And I'm pretty sure the developers involved with the idea are no longer working on Eve, so heh. Yeah, wasn't that a Soundwave thing? To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Icesail
Applied Agoraphobia Sinewave Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 21:53:00 -
[1235] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Look, here's the deal. Based on your own assumptions, it seems like you are the kind of player you keep talking about when you refer to "little guys" practicing "economic warfare." It seems like you don't have much experience playing with sizable groups of other players, and you may or may not have experience in nullsec at all. If you did have experience in nullsec, you'd know that:
- There's already room for small gangs to conduct economic warfare in hostile space. This is done by hunting and killing ratters, industrialists, random travelers, and basically anything else that floats through space alone or in small numbers. It can also be accomplished by doing nasty things like relisting: buying up in-demand commodities in nullsec stations (in their entirety where possible) and re-listing them at higher prices, forcing people to overpay for their ships and gear and funneling that profit into your own wallet.
- Nobody is going to hang around for days at a time in hopes of possibly catching some hostile in a blockade runner that's come to loot a siphon: it's absolutely not worth doing, since you can easily retrieve your stuff from the siphon and then destroy it rather than spending ~48 hours in a Sabre poopsocking a structure, hoping that you'll be watching the screen at the exact moment some fool decloaks their hauler for 3 seconds to do a drive-by pickup. It's seriously not going to happen. The spergiest of spergs can sometimes be motivated to camp things for days at a time in hopes of a cap or supercap kill, but nobody is going to bother to do so over a possible Prowler kill.
- Have you ever even been to nullsec? Let me give you a clue: your average nullsec resident is not very situationally aware. Someone running around planting siphons is just one more hostile drifting through a region: ratters will safe up momentarily until you leave, then go back to ratting. I've moved supercaps through null without being noticed, to think this won't be possible with a blockade runner dropping modules that leave no overt traces is ridiculous.
- This siphon proposal doesn't involve any "gameplay" at all: your use of that term in this discussion is overly-generous to CCP. Pushing a module out of your ship isn't gameplay any more than anchoring a drag bubble is. It's the stuff that happens as a result of anchoring a drag bubble that constitutes gameplay: siphons make no such promises.
1. There's always room for more economic warfare opportunities for the small gangs.. Get over it. 2. Nobody expects you to 'hang' around for days.. So it goes.. You lose some of your passive income. Find another revenue stream if you don't like it. 3. Don't pretend you're the Encyclopedia of nullsec.. The moon syphoning is another game mechanic you will need to accept and deal with instead of bitching about it. 4. your drag bubble analogy isn't accurate either. I shouldn't have to explain it for you further. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
725
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 22:07:00 -
[1236] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:Do you want an example of an incentive to live in all of your alliance's space? Tie the IHUB upgrade anomalies/complexes to an entire constellation or even a region (obviously constrained by your sovereignty). That way, instead of in the system, a completed anomaly respawns in a random system within the constellation. Systems which are not populated will accumulate many anomalies (and high-quality anomalies, regardless of their individual truesec) over time, giving an incentive for people to go there and rat. Since individual systems will eventually run out of sites, ratters have to move from one system to another. This gives an opportunity for an enemy fleet to catch them on gates, which in turn incentivizes home defense fleet to chase them out.
This is providing an incentive. The siphon, as it currently stands, is just a slap across the face if you dare to play the game "wrong". What you propose is an excellent incentive, one (among others) that I hope to see as Null is systematically revamped. Compared to what you propose the siphon mechanic is a relatively minor incentive, but it is an incentive none-the-less. They are not mutually exclusive. The overall goal is to see people living in, fighting over, stealing from, and trying to travel through area's of space that provide revenue, as opposed to controlling vast tracts of virtually uninhabited space.
We can all agree on the necessity of making people actually inhabit space. I don't like rolling through swathes of empty nullsec space any more than the next guy; I just don't think that letting people covertly leech stuff off moons is the way to do it. I'd much rather see something that one could bring in and deploy in a system to de-spawn resources or otherwise inhibit useful activity in a very high-profile manner that would draw out / encourage fights... something where usage works more like this:
- Enter system, deploy or contest some kind of structure (for this example, l;et's say you push something out next to someone's Ihub that disrupts one of its functions by-- say-- disabling an upgrade)
- Module pops up like a beacon for everyone in system (just like a sov structure) when it starts onlining
- After a while (let's say 10 to 20 minutes, for example's sake), the module onlines and whatever upgrade you wanted to disable stops working (if you jammed the JB thing, JBs go offline; if you jammed the cyno nav thing, no more cynogens; if you disabled the pirate upgrades, the system's anomalies pop back to its baseline; etc)
- These services remain disabled until the locals come through and destroy the structure
- The structure should probably have maybe a million EHP-- enough that it allows an outnumbered group of marauding players some time to skirmish with a much larger defense fleet that comes to clear the structure, but not enough that a couple of guys in DPS battleships couldn't clear it within a couple of minutes if it's not defended.
Something like this would cause the "right" amount of disruption in a helpful way. First of all, the disruption is public-- everyone in the system (or trying to use the beacon or connected JB) will know about it immediately. Second, the Thing would allow various degrees of disruption to suit the size of the gang that's deploying it: if you only have a couple of people then disabling a key jump bridge system would probably result in you being dogpiled by half an alliance fairly quickly, but if you disrupt someone's anomaly spawns then maybe only the ratters in that particular system will be motivated enough to form a gang.
It also doesn't penalize people for not being logged in-- a major flaw of the siphon. If there's nobody online (even in a major ratting hub) because of timezone effects, then there's no reason to drop a disruptor, and even if you did nobody would be penalized. There would also be no motivation for the attackers to leave a disruptor in a system while they aren't available to fight, so it doesn't encourage AFK griefing (like the siphon does).
This is just an example, but this is the kind of strategy CCP should be adopting for these kinds of "small gang content." Anything covert isn't going to generate fights; anything really major will just cause blobbing. Solutions need to be scalable to suit an attacker's capabilities. A solo attacker may choose to just roam about in a HAC trying to kill ratters. A gang of ten may choose to try and force a small fight by disrupting people's ability to rat. A gang of one hundred might disable a JB link during a hostile alliance's fleet operations, cutting off reinforcements and forcing that alliance to either divert people to restore the link or send their reinforcements through lengthy, dangerous gate routes. This idea is already way better than the siphon idea and I've only spent twenty minutes thinking about it: just think what CCP's full-time game designers should be able to come up with in a similar vein! |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1288
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 22:11:00 -
[1237] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Lessons learned
GÇóShooting at stationary structures is boring
GÇóWaking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
GùªSee: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool
GÇóMaking something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it
GùªSee: everything involving starbases. From this Dev Blog. Apparently they have forgotten the lessons learned.
Quoting for page 62 |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1288
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 22:20:00 -
[1238] - Quote
If you're looking for different ways to ~fix nullsec~, well it feels good to get it off your chest. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4904
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 22:35:00 -
[1239] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Falin Whalen wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Lessons learned
GÇóShooting at stationary structures is boring
GÇóWaking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
GùªSee: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool
GÇóMaking something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it
GùªSee: everything involving starbases. From this Dev Blog. Apparently they have forgotten the lessons learned. Quoting for page 62 tedious sov mechanics are the best
structure shoots
reinforcement timers
reset of progress back to the sbu stage
Nothing quite like it There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 22:58:00 -
[1240] - Quote
Icesail wrote:
Thumbs up for once CCP. Looking forward to the progression of the moon siphoning..
I take it you are also looking forward to the spin offs of syphoning, eg; increased prices, lower supply levels??
|
|
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1413
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 23:15:00 -
[1241] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I will freely admit that low sec has needed some mechanics (other than factional warfare) unique to low sec to provide more reasons to live there (although it's a heck of a lot more populated than it used to be).
I have always hoped that much of low sec would turn into a sort of Barbary Coast, where empire control is feeble at best but still exists. Where crime and piracy are even more prevalent than they are now, but thrive because (mostly) honest folk are drawn there for it's unique natural resources and opportunities to exploit them in ways not allowed in empire.
Sounds like an area where the siphon mechanic would fit right in. Alright, I had to think about this for a while.
As it stands now, if we ignore FW for a while, lowsec is basically vast areas of pretty much useless space. This space is sprinkled with a couple of high quality and a bunch of moderate moons. Anything but these moons is for most purposes useless.
Traditionally, control over moons revolves around fighting fleet battles on timers. Therefore nullsec alliances come to lowsec to claim these valuable moons, as smaller lowsec groups in general don't have the power to win these fights. But along with the major alliances, the smaller nullsec groups and corporations also commonly profit from lowsec moons. Even if you're a small corp, it's easy to leverage your contacts in the alliance to get a fleet together to claim (and later defend) a couple of R16 - R32 moons. These moons provide much needed income to smaller individual entities, who might not get a proper share of nullsec riches.
One possible reason behind introducing a siphon mechanic could be the transfer of ownership of these lowsec moons from nullsec entities to groups occupying lowsec space. I would like to point out that this was not one of the reasons stated in the devblog. To accomplish this, one could seek to change moon income to depend not on timer fleet fights, but on continued presence in the system the moon is in.
If this was the design goal, then a moongoo stealing mechanic could very well be a way to accomplish it. However, in its current implementation, it does anything but that. Instead of encouraging active presence around the moon, it only pushes for alt proliferation - both from the attacker's and the defender's side. There is no point in bringing a fleet to deploy a siphon when you have to do so under POS guns. There is no point in bringing a fleet to destroy a siphon when it can be blown up by POS guns. Without bubbles, cloaky haulers in lowsec are virtually unstoppable, so there is nothing you can do to stop your tower from being siphoned, other than keep an alt on watch at all times.
However, going off on a tangent, let us examine the consequences of such a design change: what if moongoo income in lowsec was really changed to be controlled by active presence in the system, no matter the actual game mechanics behind it? Who would it benefit? Who would it harm?
First of all, entities living in lowsec would enjoy a new income stream, as they could take away the income from small-scale nullsec residents occupying the moons. They would definitely benefit from this, and overall the corporation/alliance income curve from highsec -> lowsec -> nullsec would be greatly straightened.
Large nullsec alliances mostly lay claims to R64s in lowsec. Depending on the new mechanic used to control moons, they could most likely still more or less easily project sufficient power to either claim the moons, or at least disrupt the moon operation to the level that nobody can profit from it. (Example, with a siphon-like mechanic, stick a tower on a moon and don't mine anything from it. You won't get any money, but neither will anyone trying to steal from you.)
However, such a change would really hurt the small individual corporations in nullsec. These corps often rely on lowsec moon income to sponsor internal corp programs, such as SRP, tournaments, training new members, etc. - things that usually aren't handled (and financed) on an alliance level. As individual small corps lose income, people would be more and more attracted to the big alliances who control the R64 moons and moons in nullsec. This would lead to a loss of individuality for these corps, and even further homogenization of 0.0.
I think that in the long-term, without introducing additional sources of corporation-level income in nullsec, such a change would lead to further poisoning of the nullsec metagame. We would see even larger clusters of nameless grunts rallied under a single flag, instead of a diverse political landscape with all sizes of corps and alliances working together or against each other.
There is not enough wealth to be had in nullsec to support all levels - alliance, corporation, and individual income. Lowsec currently plays a big role in filling the gaps, and entities with significant assets in lowsec will fight hard against mechanics implemented to take it away from them. As Greyscale said, making profiting off lowsec towers tedious will not stop us from doing it. We will do it, and we will hate it.
I don't know whether this shift of moon income from being dependent on a PvP fleet fight to continuous activity in the system is the intent of the POS siphons as envisioned by CCP. But I believe that a) the current implementation of siphons doesn't accomplish that, and b) the idea itself is flawed and without additional supplementary changes will have negative long-term results.
If you want nullsec corporations to free up lowsec moons, first introduce an adequate income source that can be used on a corporation level in nullsec. Spare us terrible clockwork check-in mechanics. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
2742
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 23:18:00 -
[1242] - Quote
Oh man this is a rad feature! Awesome job CCP! Really looking forward to this expansion...
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Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
726
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 23:20:00 -
[1243] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: tedious sov mechanics are the best
structure shoots
reinforcement timers
reset of progress back to the sbu stage
Nothing quite like it
Woah, it's like a space-Haiku. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 23:32:00 -
[1244] - Quote
Icesail wrote:
1. There's always room for more economic warfare opportunities for the small gangs.. Get over it. 2. Nobody expects you to 'hang' around for days.. So it goes.. You lose some of your passive income. Find another revenue stream if you don't like it. 3. Don't pretend you're the Encyclopedia of nullsec.. The moon syphoning is another game mechanic you will need to accept and deal with instead of bitching about it. 4. your drag bubble analogy isn't accurate either. I shouldn't have to explain it for you further.
1. Yes there is but syphons aren't going to effect nulsec so much as lowsec operators. When you hear of mining pos's being reinforced where are they?? The majority are in lowsec due to their proximity, ease of access, nulsec moons are often difficult to access and guarded better. 2. Passive income?? you have never managed a pos have you? People keep saying moon mining is passive income, it is far from passive. 3. Actually he was pretty close to my own experiences in nul, I'm no pro as far as nul goes but it in reality is nothing like most would think. 4.The drag bubble analogy is exactly right. It is not dropping the bubble that creates the content it is what happens after the bubble is dropped. Dropping a syphon is not creating anything more than passive isk for the person who drops it, at such minimal risk and low cost it is stupid. A 10mil isk module which requires virtually no upkeep can shut down a 400 mil pos??
If CCP really wants syphons to create "game play" - other than giving those who drop them free isk, make it so the syphon needs to be anchored and monitored. If the owner of the syphon cloaks, logs off or leaves system, the syphon turns off. You don't have to sit with the syphon but do need to be uncloaked and logged into the system of you syphon. That would give pos owners the opportunity to actually engage the person trying to steal from them.
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Icesail
Applied Agoraphobia Sinewave Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 23:36:00 -
[1245] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Icesail wrote:
Thumbs up for once CCP. Looking forward to the progression of the moon siphoning..
I take it you are also looking forward to the spin offs of syphoning, eg; increased prices, lower supply levels??
It will all level out, just like every other expansion that we've seen. No need to scream "the sky is falling" .. The game needs a shake up.
|
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1413
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 23:40:00 -
[1246] - Quote
Icesail wrote:It will all level out, just like every other expansion that we've seen. No need to scream "the sky is falling" .. The game needs a shake up.
Let's hope the "leveling out" won't require rolling back trillions out of people's wallets this time. |
Icesail
Applied Agoraphobia Sinewave Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 23:45:00 -
[1247] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Icesail wrote:Weaselior wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Thank you for the clairification. Now I can lean back and enjoy POS owner tears as they now have to do more than stop by once a week to spend 3 minutes interacting with their ISK printing press. The issue here is that there are only two real forms of alliance income: moons, and renters. Renters have lead to a terribly boring 0.0 where every few months we relentlessly sodomize N3, who then retreats back to their bad space that's all rented out. All this does is make renters even more necessary, which makes it even more necessary to own all the bad regions to rent them out instead of those serving as alliance incubators. Whoa.. Easy there.. This thread is supposed to be about the siphoning.. Not extolling us with your imaginary epeen.. CCP has made lots of changes over the years that have pissed off loads of people for different reasons.. This is a welcome change for us folks that choose not to ride the sheeple bandwagon.. Thumbs up for once CCP. Looking forward to the progression of the moon siphoning.. yeah screw you goons siphons for everyone
Wow.. there you go again.. The lot of you.. This isn't about you.. It's about the moon siphoning.. Go play another game if it upsets you that much.. It's only a game.. |
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
483
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 00:06:00 -
[1248] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued. ISD Ezwal Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 00:23:00 -
[1249] - Quote
Icesail wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Look, here's the deal. Based on your own assumptions, it seems like you are the kind of player you keep talking about when you refer to "little guys" practicing "economic warfare." It seems like you don't have much experience playing with sizable groups of other players, and you may or may not have experience in nullsec at all. If you did have experience in nullsec, you'd know that:
- There's already room for small gangs to conduct economic warfare in hostile space. This is done by hunting and killing ratters, industrialists, random travelers, and basically anything else that floats through space alone or in small numbers. It can also be accomplished by doing nasty things like relisting: buying up in-demand commodities in nullsec stations (in their entirety where possible) and re-listing them at higher prices, forcing people to overpay for their ships and gear and funneling that profit into your own wallet.
- Nobody is going to hang around for days at a time in hopes of possibly catching some hostile in a blockade runner that's come to loot a siphon: it's absolutely not worth doing, since you can easily retrieve your stuff from the siphon and then destroy it rather than spending ~48 hours in a Sabre poopsocking a structure, hoping that you'll be watching the screen at the exact moment some fool decloaks their hauler for 3 seconds to do a drive-by pickup. It's seriously not going to happen. The spergiest of spergs can sometimes be motivated to camp things for days at a time in hopes of a cap or supercap kill, but nobody is going to bother to do so over a possible Prowler kill.
- Have you ever even been to nullsec? Let me give you a clue: your average nullsec resident is not very situationally aware. Someone running around planting siphons is just one more hostile drifting through a region: ratters will safe up momentarily until you leave, then go back to ratting. I've moved supercaps through null without being noticed, to think this won't be possible with a blockade runner dropping modules that leave no overt traces is ridiculous.
- This siphon proposal doesn't involve any "gameplay" at all: your use of that term in this discussion is overly-generous to CCP. Pushing a module out of your ship isn't gameplay any more than anchoring a drag bubble is. It's the stuff that happens as a result of anchoring a drag bubble that constitutes gameplay: siphons make no such promises.
1. There's always room for more economic warfare opportunities for the small gangs.. Get over it. 2. Nobody expects you to 'hang' around for days.. So it goes.. You lose some of your passive income. Find another revenue stream if you don't like it. 3. Don't pretend you're the Encyclopedia of nullsec.. The moon syphoning is another game mechanic you will need to accept and deal with instead of bitching about it. 4. your drag bubble analogy isn't accurate either. I shouldn't have to explain it for you further. EDIT: My apologies. My response was not meant as an attack on you. Let me rephrase it this way. All of your points are silly.
2. Passive income.... until one manages a moon or a reaction farm, one is not permitted to state if moon income is passive or not. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 00:38:00 -
[1250] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Icesail wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Look, here's the deal. Based on your own assumptions, it seems like you are the kind of player you keep talking about when you refer to "little guys" practicing "economic warfare." It seems like you don't have much experience playing with sizable groups of other players, and you may or may not have experience in nullsec at all. If you did have experience in nullsec, you'd know that:
- There's already room for small gangs to conduct economic warfare in hostile space. This is done by hunting and killing ratters, industrialists, random travelers, and basically anything else that floats through space alone or in small numbers. It can also be accomplished by doing nasty things like relisting: buying up in-demand commodities in nullsec stations (in their entirety where possible) and re-listing them at higher prices, forcing people to overpay for their ships and gear and funneling that profit into your own wallet.
- Nobody is going to hang around for days at a time in hopes of possibly catching some hostile in a blockade runner that's come to loot a siphon: it's absolutely not worth doing, since you can easily retrieve your stuff from the siphon and then destroy it rather than spending ~48 hours in a Sabre poopsocking a structure, hoping that you'll be watching the screen at the exact moment some fool decloaks their hauler for 3 seconds to do a drive-by pickup. It's seriously not going to happen. The spergiest of spergs can sometimes be motivated to camp things for days at a time in hopes of a cap or supercap kill, but nobody is going to bother to do so over a possible Prowler kill.
- Have you ever even been to nullsec? Let me give you a clue: your average nullsec resident is not very situationally aware. Someone running around planting siphons is just one more hostile drifting through a region: ratters will safe up momentarily until you leave, then go back to ratting. I've moved supercaps through null without being noticed, to think this won't be possible with a blockade runner dropping modules that leave no overt traces is ridiculous.
- This siphon proposal doesn't involve any "gameplay" at all: your use of that term in this discussion is overly-generous to CCP. Pushing a module out of your ship isn't gameplay any more than anchoring a drag bubble is. It's the stuff that happens as a result of anchoring a drag bubble that constitutes gameplay: siphons make no such promises.
1. There's always room for more economic warfare opportunities for the small gangs.. Get over it. 2. Nobody expects you to 'hang' around for days.. So it goes.. You lose some of your passive income. Find another revenue stream if you don't like it. 3. Don't pretend you're the Encyclopedia of nullsec.. The moon syphoning is another game mechanic you will need to accept and deal with instead of bitching about it. 4. your drag bubble analogy isn't accurate either. I shouldn't have to explain it for you further. EDIT: My apologies. My response was not meant as an attack on you. Let me rephrase it this way. All of your points are silly. 2. Passive income.... until one manages a moon or a reaction farm, one is not permitted to state if moon income is passive or not. 1. Syphons won't so much create economic warfare as passive income for those placing syphons. |
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Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 01:11:00 -
[1251] - Quote
Sariton Xavian wrote:The ... apparent asynchronous gameplay objective of siphons as announced isnGÇÖt quite right.
Everyone complains about AFK and asynch gameplay overshadowing real interaction... so rather than try to spice up the dull passive (plus boring administration) play of POSGÇÖs with another piece of fundamentally asynch gameplay, why not come at it from the angle of it encouraging interactive gameplay events instead?
Make the siphon a bit larger and more expensive, and provide a benefit to the POS operator if they respond to it quickly GÇô for example by allowing the incapacitation, scooping and melting of the siphon (and associated recovery of its contents). The point is POS operators shouldnGÇÖt purely dread the threat of being siphoned, there should be a potential positive to them logging in to respond to one quickly. The API then wouldnGÇÖt need to lie, because the GOAL is that POS owners mobilise quickly.
Placing a siphon then becomes a small scale incitement event available to individuals or small groups. A more fluid, faster turn around, accessible alternative to re-enforcing a tower. If the POS owner is lazy, doesnGÇÖt care, isnGÇÖt paying attention, then the individual/small group can profit. If the owner is on the ball, they lose nothing and maybe gain a bit GÇô and heaven forbid a skirmish might even occur. With a design along these lines larger groups might use siphon placement as a baiting, testing or buildup exercise which once again adds to the experience rather than detracting. I like this idea but offer refinements:
I see opportunities to synchronize time of opportunity for interaction and sizes of forces on opposing sides at each opportunity for interaction.
Time: In full-out attack to destroy POS, attacker has complete freedom to choose time to start attack and attack is fully effective from start until POS enters "reinforced" state. Attacker can choose how long defender has, to respond during initial attack, by choosing size of attacking force: larger attacking force drives POS to "reinforced" faster. Once POS enters "reinforced", though, further attacks are futile until "reinforced timer" expires, and attacking force is vulnerable to counterattack, maybe by superior third-party forces just looking for kills. Defender controls how long reinforced state lasts, but timer-expiration time is visible to both parties. When POS "comes out of reinforced", it becomes vulnerable again to attack. If attacker does not resume attack then, defender can repair POS and restore initial state.
For siphon-planting, perhaps adopt similar mechanics, but perhaps offer POS-owner option to go directly to state similar to "reinforced"? In exchange for diverting power-and-CPU to anti-siphoning defenses, thereby reducing production, let POS-owner choose a schedule on which siphons could become effective. Siphon could be planted any time, but would only start sucking product when interval of vulnerability arrives. Siphon would be invulnerable while waiting for POS to become vulnerable to siphoning. Start of vulnerability interval now becomes synchronizing event: POS-owner sets it and siphon-planter can see it and plan to be present to defend siphon at activation time.
If only POS-owner shows up for activation time, he can destroy siphon and avoid all loss of product.
If only siphon-planter shows up, siphon becomes active and becomes invulnerable for length of time set by siphon-planter. Just as POS-owner can trade off between POS-yield and length and frequency of vulnerability intervals, siphon-planter can trade off between amount siphoned and length of time siphon would remain invulnerable.
If both POS-owner and siphon-planter show up, they can fight over survival of siphon. POS-owner risks losses caused by successful activation of siphon and maybe his ship; siphon-planter risks loss of siphon and maybe his ship. Of course, each might also have allies.
Once successfully activated, and until destroyed, siphon provides recurring sequence of predictable opportunities for battles over siphoned product. Control over times of opportunities alternates between POS-owner and siphon-planter.
Size: I do not understand situation for sizes of forces as well as I understand time, but I think there can be opportunity for both sides to control sizes of forces it would make sense to bring to each opportunity for battle, by controlling how much is at stake each time. POS-owner could increase or decrease stakes by shifting power-and-CPU between production equipment and anti-siphoning countermeasures. Should be possible for siphon-planter to do something similar, but I do not quite see what control(s) to provide. |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 01:27:00 -
[1252] - Quote
Sariton Xavian wrote:If the siphon is scoopable after incapacitation, and/or requires fuel to run that the POS owner can claim as their prize when they respond to being siphoned (and which also reduces the profitability of a siphoner when targeting lower value moons), then the POS owner can achieve a net profit from responding effectively to being siphoned at the expense of fire and forget siphoners. .... My first reaction was to suggest that siphons be manufactured from, and yield when shot and salvaged, lots and lots of Tritanium. POS-owners are industrialists, right? Tritanium-shortages are a recurring complaint of industrialists, right? So let one problem solve another.
My second reaction was that this would offer an obvious exploit, as a way to ship Tritanium from hi-sec to null-sec in the form of siphons.
My third reaction was to wonder whether that exploit would be a Bad Thing or a Good Thing.
Have I been reading this thread too long? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4906
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 01:42:00 -
[1253] - Quote
Kropotkin wrote:My first reaction was to suggest that siphons be manufactured from, and yield when shot and salvaged, lots and lots of Tritanium. POS-owners are industrialists, right? Tritanium-shortages are a recurring complaint of industrialists, right? Terrible troll. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 01:52:00 -
[1254] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Lots of good stuff The troubling issue with these siphons is that it demonstrates not only a lack of lessons learned from previous timer and structure systems, but a complete lack of awareness of even the basic dimensions of the issue. Considering that the entire game hinges on the designers ability to encourage fun emergent interaction, it basically means that there is either no one left at CCP who even understands the fundamental theories and ideas that make eve successful or their success was and continues to be completely accidental. It is obvious that the thought process wasn't "What was good and bad about pos? What was good and bad about dominion? Where can we go with the lessons learned?", rather it was "what is some tangential sop to our sophomoric understanding of the issues with nullsec gameplay that fits into our "running around putting out fires" model of game development?". It demonstrates that this game is ultimately doomed because CCP has either lost or never had the institutional culture requisite to handle the segment of the industry that they apparently stumbled blindly into. Now all they are doing is babysitting a game in decline, while randomly throwing **** at the wall in response to "game through a pinhole" survey feedback. In the end someone else with some balls and vision will come along and take what CCP got right ten years ago and make something good and progressive out of it, and CCP will have no one to blame but themselves. If CCP lack theoretical understanding of what makes sov-warfare mechanics good or bad, should perhaps CCP gear up for more empirical exploration of space of possible Game-mechanics systems for controlling Game-space?
Right now Wormhole space has one different system for controlling space. Maybe CCP need to try more alternatives? There would be development costs, certainly, but perhaps there would also be advantage that gearing up to deploy multiple Game-space-control systems would encourage CCP to keep implementation of each alternative system simple and well-documented, as distinct from horrible state of current implementation?
See ideas of Steve Blank on "Lean Start-ups". |
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 02:47:00 -
[1255] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Kropotkin wrote:My first reaction was to suggest that siphons be manufactured from, and yield when shot and salvaged, lots and lots of Tritanium. POS-owners are industrialists, right? Tritanium-shortages are a recurring complaint of industrialists, right? Terrible troll. Ritual apologies: was not intended as troll. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4906
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 03:18:00 -
[1256] - Quote
Kropotkin wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Kropotkin wrote:My first reaction was to suggest that siphons be manufactured from, and yield when shot and salvaged, lots and lots of Tritanium. POS-owners are industrialists, right? Tritanium-shortages are a recurring complaint of industrialists, right? Terrible troll. Ritual apologies: was not intended as troll. ok, then I'll explain. Mentally divide the main things into the following:
Supercapitals: POS, sov nullsec Capitals: Stations, lowsec Just about everything else: Stations, highsec
Reaction and mining poses aren't run by people who need trit.
Also, 10 or 20mil of trit isn't all that much, unsurprisingly. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Strom Crendraven
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
52
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 03:27:00 -
[1257] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..
Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve. By siphons being a real mechanic in the game, means it will create player traffic. This means the opportunity for combat increases. Any POS operators that rely on some 3rd party tool to play the game for them will be the ones to suffer the most. Any groups that actually inhabit the space they have POS in will be just fine as they will have eyes in the system to see when a siphon is deployed. I can't believe how heavily some groups rely on programs to play the game for them and go out of their way to make sure AFK game play and mechanics remain a thing for EVE. Pathetic. Except the siphon griefers will be in nulli interceptors or stabbed blockade runners or cloaky recons, generating rather indifferent volumes of combat. I also love they way you seem to think moon mining is AFK. I reckon a survey on player burn out in Eve would show two groups with the highest level of burn out being CEOs and POS monkeys, with FCs possibly being up there as well. I also find it ironic that a senior figure in NC., which has substantially outsourced the act living its own space, i.e. has gone beyond being AFK in its own space, is chastising people for running POS, which it thinks is AFK.
Nerf NC burn out cloaky AFK nulli monkeys stabbed ironic POS siphon thingys!!! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4906
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 03:38:00 -
[1258] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..
Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve. By siphons being a real mechanic in the game, means it will create player traffic. This means the opportunity for combat increases. Any POS operators that rely on some 3rd party tool to play the game for them will be the ones to suffer the most. Any groups that actually inhabit the space they have POS in will be just fine as they will have eyes in the system to see when a siphon is deployed. I can't believe how heavily some groups rely on programs to play the game for them and go out of their way to make sure AFK game play and mechanics remain a thing for EVE. Pathetic. Except the siphon griefers will be in nulli interceptors or stabbed blockade runners or cloaky recons, generating rather indifferent volumes of combat. I also love they way you seem to think moon mining is AFK. I reckon a survey on player burn out in Eve would show two groups with the highest level of burn out being CEOs and POS monkeys, with FCs possibly being up there as well. I also find it ironic that a senior figure in NC., which has substantially outsourced the act living its own space, i.e. has gone beyond being AFK in its own space, is chastising people for running POS, which it thinks is AFK. Nerf NC burn out cloaky AFK nulli monkeys stabbed ironic POS siphon thingys!!! Er, what? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 05:03:00 -
[1259] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Icesail wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Look, here's the deal. Based on your own assumptions, it seems like you are the kind of player you keep talking about when you refer to "little guys" practicing "economic warfare." It seems like you don't have much experience playing with sizable groups of other players, and you may or may not have experience in nullsec at all. If you did have experience in nullsec, you'd know that:
- There's already room for small gangs to conduct economic warfare in hostile space. This is done by hunting and killing ratters, industrialists, random travelers, and basically anything else that floats through space alone or in small numbers. It can also be accomplished by doing nasty things like relisting: buying up in-demand commodities in nullsec stations (in their entirety where possible) and re-listing them at higher prices, forcing people to overpay for their ships and gear and funneling that profit into your own wallet.
- Nobody is going to hang around for days at a time in hopes of possibly catching some hostile in a blockade runner that's come to loot a siphon: it's absolutely not worth doing, since you can easily retrieve your stuff from the siphon and then destroy it rather than spending ~48 hours in a Sabre poopsocking a structure, hoping that you'll be watching the screen at the exact moment some fool decloaks their hauler for 3 seconds to do a drive-by pickup. It's seriously not going to happen. The spergiest of spergs can sometimes be motivated to camp things for days at a time in hopes of a cap or supercap kill, but nobody is going to bother to do so over a possible Prowler kill.
- Have you ever even been to nullsec? Let me give you a clue: your average nullsec resident is not very situationally aware. Someone running around planting siphons is just one more hostile drifting through a region: ratters will safe up momentarily until you leave, then go back to ratting. I've moved supercaps through null without being noticed, to think this won't be possible with a blockade runner dropping modules that leave no overt traces is ridiculous.
- This siphon proposal doesn't involve any "gameplay" at all: your use of that term in this discussion is overly-generous to CCP. Pushing a module out of your ship isn't gameplay any more than anchoring a drag bubble is. It's the stuff that happens as a result of anchoring a drag bubble that constitutes gameplay: siphons make no such promises.
1. There's always room for more economic warfare opportunities for the small gangs.. Get over it. 2. Nobody expects you to 'hang' around for days.. So it goes.. You lose some of your passive income. Find another revenue stream if you don't like it. 3. Don't pretend you're the Encyclopedia of nullsec.. The moon syphoning is another game mechanic you will need to accept and deal with instead of bitching about it. 4. your drag bubble analogy isn't accurate either. I shouldn't have to explain it for you further. EDIT: My apologies. My response was not meant as an attack on you. Let me rephrase it this way. All of your points are silly. 2. Passive income.... until one manages a moon or a reaction farm, one is not permitted to state if moon income is passive or not. 1. Syphons won't so much create economic warfare as passive income for those placing syphons.
Great enjoy emptying them every 25 hours, unless someone else empties it first. Passive fun and games.
It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 05:12:00 -
[1260] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..
Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve. By siphons being a real mechanic in the game, means it will create player traffic. This means the opportunity for combat increases. Any POS operators that rely on some 3rd party tool to play the game for them will be the ones to suffer the most. Any groups that actually inhabit the space they have POS in will be just fine as they will have eyes in the system to see when a siphon is deployed. I can't believe how heavily some groups rely on programs to play the game for them and go out of their way to make sure AFK game play and mechanics remain a thing for EVE. Pathetic. Except the siphon griefers will be in nulli interceptors or stabbed blockade runners or cloaky recons, generating rather indifferent volumes of combat. I also love they way you seem to think moon mining is AFK. I reckon a survey on player burn out in Eve would show two groups with the highest level of burn out being CEOs and POS monkeys, with FCs possibly being up there as well. I also find it ironic that a senior figure in NC., which has substantially outsourced the act living its own space, i.e. has gone beyond being AFK in its own space, is chastising people for running POS, which it thinks is AFK. Nerf NC burn out cloaky AFK nulli monkeys stabbed ironic POS siphon thingys!!!
What? Oh needs an animated gif to make sense. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
|
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 07:03:00 -
[1261] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:
Great enjoy emptying them every 25 hours, unless someone else empties it first. Passive fun and games.
Do you really think there will be syphons that survive for 24hrs?? I'd be surprised if there were many lasted more than 12.
|
Saeka Tyr
Sanctuary of Shadows Axiomatic Dominion
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 07:45:00 -
[1262] - Quote
Just to pitch on what CCP Sonic said....
Quote:b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
I would be entirely in favor of this if there was an equivalent system in place to prevent a single character from putting literally dozens to hundreds of bubbles online.
As for reducing the wastage, I don't see the problem with 20% however if you think reducing it would be good I'd prefer to see a skill based fix to that.
Perhaps an anchoring bonus? 2% reduced waste per level of anchoring. But not a dedicated skill, as that strikes me as excessive. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4907
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 07:50:00 -
[1263] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Great enjoy emptying them every 25 hours, unless someone else empties it first. Passive fun and games. Do you really think there will be syphons that survive for 24hrs?? I'd be surprised if there were many lasted more than 12. But the poses are afkkkkkkk and passiveeeeee There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 08:29:00 -
[1264] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Great enjoy emptying them every 25 hours, unless someone else empties it first. Passive fun and games. Do you really think there will be syphons that survive for 24hrs?? I'd be surprised if there were many lasted more than 12. But the poses are afkkkkkkk and passiveeeeee
The cognitive dissonance in this thread is approaching the levels of a creationist like Ray Comfort being confronted with samples from the Lenski e.coli experiments. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 09:28:00 -
[1265] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Great enjoy emptying them every 25 hours, unless someone else empties it first. Passive fun and games. Do you really think there will be syphons that survive for 24hrs?? I'd be surprised if there were many lasted more than 12. But the poses are afkkkkkkk and passiveeeeee Sorry of course they are, how silly of me..
Hangon why if pos's are so passive do I need to spend on average 10hrs pw ( over half the average persons online time) managing my pos's?
|
Saeka Tyr
Sanctuary of Shadows Axiomatic Dominion
12
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 10:47:00 -
[1266] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote: Hangon why if pos's are so passive do I need to spend on average 10hrs pw ( over half the average persons online time) managing my pos's?
other than "picking up materials that accumulated while sleeping" and "putting in more fuel", there really isn't much else for you to do.
|
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
42
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 11:00:00 -
[1267] - Quote
Saeka Tyr wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote: Hangon why if pos's are so passive do I need to spend on average 10hrs pw ( over half the average persons online time) managing my pos's?
other than "picking up materials that accumulated while sleeping" and "putting in more fuel", there really isn't much else for you to do.
These mythical self anchoring, assembling, linking and on-lining POS's whom do I acquire them off? It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
marly cortez
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 11:48:00 -
[1268] - Quote
Just read the CCP scat left out to warn about these siphons.
Conclusion: Having failed miserably to force players to synchronize there interactions CCP's only recourse was to force asynchronous interaction upon them as punishment for not doing as they were told the first time.
Utterly priceless. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 12:00:00 -
[1269] - Quote
Saeka Tyr wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote: Hangon why if pos's are so passive do I need to spend on average 10hrs pw ( over half the average persons online time) managing my pos's?
other than "picking up materials that accumulated while sleeping" and "putting in more fuel", there really isn't much else for you to do. Ok so tell me, how do the raw materials get from 1 pos to another, how do they get into the silos, how does the reaction get started and when needed everything cleared and another reaction get setup, how does the fuel get the 15 jumps from empire to the pos's?? Then on top of that because I run alchemy reactions (not everyone has R64's) everything needs to be hauled to a stationed system, processed then returned to the pos to be reacted.
PLEASE tell me there is a way to automate all those things to be done while I sleep, please please tell me how.. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1434
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 12:23:00 -
[1270] - Quote
Saeka Tyr wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote: Hangon why if pos's are so passive do I need to spend on average 10hrs pw ( over half the average persons online time) managing my pos's?
other than "picking up materials that accumulated while sleeping" and "putting in more fuel", there really isn't much else for you to do. Confirming POSes never get attacked and don't need a fleet to defend. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4915
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 14:36:00 -
[1271] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Great enjoy emptying them every 25 hours, unless someone else empties it first. Passive fun and games. Do you really think there will be syphons that survive for 24hrs?? I'd be surprised if there were many lasted more than 12. But the poses are afkkkkkkk and passiveeeeee The cognitive dissonance in this thread is approaching the levels of a creationist like Ray Comfort being confronted with samples from the Lenski e.coli experiments. shrug There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
1237
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 14:43:00 -
[1272] - Quote
- There needs to be more randomness then just "first place, first stealer". If there are 10 siphon units around a POS, they should be processed in a random ordering each hour.
- There should be some sort of selector that lets you pick whether to focus on processed or raw materials to siphon off.
- Waste should be a random amount that hovers around 20% for a small unit in a bell-curve distribution. So you might lose 30% on one cycle at worst, or only 10% at best, but it will average out to 20% over the long run.
|
Phoenix Jones
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
185
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 14:54:00 -
[1273] - Quote
Fine with the mechanic, they just should not be usable/dropable by 1 day trial alt character.
1) Should be a requirement that the person be in a corporation to drop the item (pickup could care less, but to set it up, non-npc corp character).
2) Should be a non-trial account.
3) The non-trial account issue can be easily addressed by requiring the person deploying the unit to have anchoring level 4. Anchoring skill cannot be trained on a trial account, which would address that issue. Anchoring level 4 is a decent midway, and most people can train it up in all of 3 days.
Yes I know these things don't need to be anchored, but having the anchoring skill should be a requirement to drop them.
There "probably" should be a cap on how many 1 person can deploy in a 24 hour period. Because having 1 person drop off 120 of these in a hour time-span might be a little.. well ridiculous, but that is a different argument. Long as 1 through 3 are addressed, should be fine with it. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17073
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 16:10:00 -
[1274] - Quote
HmmGǪ 30 pages of questions and worries and no additional dev response. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
476
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 17:01:00 -
[1275] - Quote
Tippia wrote:HmmGǪ 30 pages of questions and worries and no additional dev response. Maybe, they are going, "We should probably rethink this?" but who am I kidding it's CCP. They are like, "Release it as is, we'll deal with how unbalanced/broken it is in a point release SOON(tm)." You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1476
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 17:25:00 -
[1276] - Quote
The people in charge of sacking the people in charge of this idea have been sacked. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Equaniox Maluran
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 17:56:00 -
[1277] - Quote
Are siphons going to generate killmails? |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1241
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 19:05:00 -
[1278] - Quote
Equaniox Maluran wrote:Are siphons going to generate killmails? Yes |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
421
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 19:29:00 -
[1279] - Quote
Tippia wrote:HmmGǪ 30 pages of Goon Tears and no additional dev response. FTFY.
The last 30 pages have mostly been a CFC whine and cheese reception. Page by page, every page.
Geee, I wonder why the entity that holds most of the valuable moons would be opposed to a nerf leveled squarely at moon holders.
TBH, it reminds me of all the PL and Raiden tears on the forums after the Super nerf. Man, the nerf bat's a bich, aint it? |
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
68
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 20:16:00 -
[1280] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Saeka Tyr wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote: Hangon why if pos's are so passive do I need to spend on average 10hrs pw ( over half the average persons online time) managing my pos's?
other than "picking up materials that accumulated while sleeping" and "putting in more fuel", there really isn't much else for you to do. These mythical self anchoring, assembling, linking and on-lining POS's whom do I acquire them off? those are available in rens. thou you might want to swing by amarr for the self-hauling-product-to-jita-and-fuel-back-from-jita ones and i hear tales that dodixie has a few that self-refine-alchemy. <Munnkeh> i'm gonna use that excuse if i ever kill someone. "look, if you keep meeting ppl, it's bound to happen eventually" http://i.imgur.com/76pQ9.jpg |
|
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 22:52:00 -
[1281] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Saeka Tyr wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote: Hangon why if pos's are so passive do I need to spend on average 10hrs pw ( over half the average persons online time) managing my pos's?
other than "picking up materials that accumulated while sleeping" and "putting in more fuel", there really isn't much else for you to do. These mythical self anchoring, assembling, linking and on-lining POS's whom do I acquire them off? those are available in rens. thou you might want to swing by amarr for the self-hauling-product-to-jita-and-fuel-back-from-jita ones and i hear tales that dodixie has a few that self-refine-alchemy.
Do that still have do that special on the self assembling POSs were if you buy 5 of them and 50 SOMER blink tickets, you get an Ishuknoe Watch Scorpion? It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 23:27:00 -
[1282] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:- There needs to be more randomness then just "first place, first stealer". If there are 10 siphon units around a POS, they should be processed in a random ordering each hour.
- There should be some sort of selector that lets you pick whether to focus on processed or raw materials to siphon off.
- Waste should be a random amount that hovers around 20% for a small unit in a bell-curve distribution. So you might lose 30% on one cycle at worst, or only 10% at best, but it will average out to 20% over the long run.
Why would you bother putting 10 syphons around a pos?? 2 will shut down the average pos and as there would not be enough materials in the cycle to be taken, 8 of the syphons would get nothing. Or maybe it should be as you say evened out, if there are more than 2 syphons on the same hourly cycle - none of them get anything because there is not enough to give them all a cycle, are syphons smart enough to share and take less than its 60 units?. This would meant they work similar to a pos. If there is not enough product for a cycle, the cycle does not run.
|
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 23:34:00 -
[1283] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:- There needs to be more randomness then just "first place, first stealer". If there are 10 siphon units around a POS, they should be processed in a random ordering each hour.
- There should be some sort of selector that lets you pick whether to focus on processed or raw materials to siphon off.
- Waste should be a random amount that hovers around 20% for a small unit in a bell-curve distribution. So you might lose 30% on one cycle at worst, or only 10% at best, but it will average out to 20% over the long run.
Why would you bother putting 10 syphons around a pos?? 2 will shut down the average pos and as there would not be enough materials in the cycle to be taken, 8 of the syphons would get nothing. Or maybe it should be as you say evened out, if there are more than 2 syphons on the same hourly cycle - none of them get anything because there is not enough to give them all a cycle, are syphons smart enough to share and take less than its 60 units?. This would meant they work similar to a pos. If there is not enough product for a cycle, the cycle does not run.
It takes 24 hours to fill a siphon up, if you put 10, you don't have to come back every day and empty, they should fill in sucession
|
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 23:35:00 -
[1284] - Quote
To ANYONE upset about these siphon units
Medium and Heavy units are next
They will target advanced components from complex reactions as well as fullerines
You might as well save some tears for that... |
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
219
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 23:36:00 -
[1285] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:To ANYONE upset about these siphon units
Medium and Heavy units are next
They will target advanced components from complex reactions as well as fullerines
You might as well save some tears for that...
Was this info given out at Eve Vegas, or is there some other place we could confirm? He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
|
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 23:44:00 -
[1286] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Tippia wrote:HmmGǪ 30 pages of Goon Tears and no additional dev response. FTFY.The last 30 pages have mostly been a CFC whine and cheese reception. Page by page, every page. Geee, I wonder why the entity that holds most of the valuable moons would be opposed to a nerf leveled squarely at moon holders. TBH, it reminds me of all the PL and Raiden tears on the forums after the Super nerf. Man, the nerf bat's a bich, aint it? 30 pages of whining?? I've been following this thread pretty closely and only seen a few posts from a couple of different goons. None of which was complaining about the mechanic and why would they it is only going to make their moons more valuable. Goons won't be targeted in any major way by syphons.
I still believe syphons should require the person running it to be online, in system and uncloaked. Thieves should not simply be handed the win by spending 10 mil isk, there should be some risk involved (aside from losing the 10 mil isk) |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 23:45:00 -
[1287] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:To ANYONE upset about these siphon units
Medium and Heavy units are next
They will target advanced components from complex reactions as well as fullerines
You might as well save some tears for that... I'll have packed up my operation by the time they get released if the mechanic isn't fixed to a workable standard.
|
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 23:47:00 -
[1288] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:- There needs to be more randomness then just "first place, first stealer". If there are 10 siphon units around a POS, they should be processed in a random ordering each hour.
- There should be some sort of selector that lets you pick whether to focus on processed or raw materials to siphon off.
- Waste should be a random amount that hovers around 20% for a small unit in a bell-curve distribution. So you might lose 30% on one cycle at worst, or only 10% at best, but it will average out to 20% over the long run.
Why would you bother putting 10 syphons around a pos?? 2 will shut down the average pos and as there would not be enough materials in the cycle to be taken, 8 of the syphons would get nothing. Or maybe it should be as you say evened out, if there are more than 2 syphons on the same hourly cycle - none of them get anything because there is not enough to give them all a cycle, are syphons smart enough to share and take less than its 60 units?. This would meant they work similar to a pos. If there is not enough product for a cycle, the cycle does not run. It takes 24 hours to fill a siphon up, if you put 10, you don't have to come back every day and empty, they should fill in sucession So no-one is going to go through the system or check the pos for 5 days.. what dream world do you live in? You are obviously 1 who believes pos's are passive income too.
|
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
425
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 01:27:00 -
[1289] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Tippia wrote:HmmGǪ 30 pages of Goon Tears and no additional dev response. FTFY.The last 30 pages have mostly been a CFC whine and cheese reception. Page by page, every page. Geee, I wonder why the entity that holds most of the valuable moons would be opposed to a nerf leveled squarely at moon holders. TBH, it reminds me of all the PL and Raiden tears on the forums after the Super nerf. Man, the nerf bat's a bich, aint it? 30 pages of whining?? I've been following this thread pretty closely and only seen a few posts from a couple of different goons. None of which was complaining about the mechanic and why would they it is only going to make their moons more valuable. Goons won't be targeted in any major way by syphons. I still believe syphons should require the person running it to be online, in system and uncloaked. Thieves should not simply be handed the win by spending 10 mil isk, there should be some risk involved (aside from losing the 10 mil isk) Yeah, bull. Page 63 -> 9 CFC posts, Page 62 -> 7 CFC posts, Page 61 -> 8 CFC posts, Page 60 -> 7 CFC posts. And on and on it continues. If you can't see it, then you should get your eyes checked.
30-40% of all the posts in this thread are made by members of the CFC, and the vast majority of the "negative feedback" is coming from CFC members.
If siphons should require the person anchoring them to be online, so should all moon harvesters, refineries, research labs labs, CSAA's, and anything else you can anchor on a pos. That idea is bad and you should feel bad. Also, the CFC have most of the moons worth siphoning, so they absolutely will be targeted, as there's (almost) no one else to siphon. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 01:43:00 -
[1290] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Tippia wrote:HmmGǪ 30 pages of Goon Tears and no additional dev response. FTFY.The last 30 pages have mostly been a CFC whine and cheese reception. Page by page, every page. Geee, I wonder why the entity that holds most of the valuable moons would be opposed to a nerf leveled squarely at moon holders. TBH, it reminds me of all the PL and Raiden tears on the forums after the Super nerf. Man, the nerf bat's a bich, aint it? 30 pages of whining?? I've been following this thread pretty closely and only seen a few posts from a couple of different goons. None of which was complaining about the mechanic and why would they it is only going to make their moons more valuable. Goons won't be targeted in any major way by syphons. I still believe syphons should require the person running it to be online, in system and uncloaked. Thieves should not simply be handed the win by spending 10 mil isk, there should be some risk involved (aside from losing the 10 mil isk) Yeah, bull. Page 63 -> 9 CFC posts, Page 62 -> 7 CFC posts, Page 61 -> 8 CFC posts, Page 60 -> 7 CFC posts. And on and on it continues. If you can't see it, then you should get your eyes checked. 40% of all the posts in this thread are made by members of the CFC, and the vast majority of the "negative feedback" is coming from CFC members. The CFC have most of the moons worth siphoning, so they absolutely will be targeted, as there's (almost) no one else to siphon. If siphons should require the person anchoring them to be online, so should all moon harvesters, refineries, research labs labs, CSAA's, and anything else you can anchor on a pos. That idea is bad and you should feel bad. Could you link me some of the negative feedback these goon toons are posting, I can't seem to find a lot. Yes they have posted a lot, mainly trolling trolls. 1; You aren't anchoring anything on the pos, 2; Why should someone dropping a syphon be able to gain passive isk? 3; There are too many in this thread who (wrongly) believe Pos mining is "passive" income. 4; Placing syphons is too risk free and needs some sort of balance, risk vs reward. 4; CCP have stated they want to lessen the impact of this so called passive income and redistribute the assets but is creating another form of passive income really the way to go?
|
|
Fix Lag
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
585
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 02:22:00 -
[1291] - Quote
IT'S SPELLED "SIPHON" YOU BLITHERING IDIOT |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
477
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 02:22:00 -
[1292] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Lessons learned
Shooting at stationary structures is boring
Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool
Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it
See: everything involving starbases. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4918
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 03:26:00 -
[1293] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Lessons learned
Shooting at stationary structures is boring
Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool
Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it
See: everything involving starbases. The CFC likes to fight on the principle of no fun allowed.
This is great There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 05:49:00 -
[1294] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:To ANYONE upset about these siphon units
Medium and Heavy units are next
They will target advanced components from complex reactions as well as fullerines
You might as well save some tears for that... Was this info given out at Eve Vegas, or is there some other place we could confirm?
yes, but if you read the original dev blog it was right there. I have quoted it for you in case you missed it:
This hopefully gives you a good overview of how siphon units will function. WeGÇÖre looking into more versions of siphon units to add later (like in Rubicon 1.1). Larger variations would steal more, but take more room and potentially cost fuel to run. Other variations could steal additional types of materials, such as complex reactions or polymer reactions. |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
55
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 05:58:00 -
[1295] - Quote
why should the siphon bother with a limited amount of theft in moon goo. why not just emulate the behavior of POCO? a siphon is just a tax for the non vigilant? or can we make poco tax in minerals instead of isk, with a limited hopper - after all its all the same thing, right? |
Andrea Griffin
732
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 13:11:00 -
[1296] - Quote
CCP, if you're making Goonswarm this angry, you must be doing something right. Please continue.
These Siphons should encourage people who run moon mining operations to be active in their space. I hope to see more capabilities against passive income streams in the future. Will I be able to deploy a hacker module and steal researching BPOs next? CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 13:55:00 -
[1297] - Quote
Fix Lag wrote:IT'S SPELLED "SIPHON" YOU BLITHERING IDIOT I'm not a yank and choose to spell it the way it is spelt in English
Syphon Definition Maybe you need to learn how to use a dictionary to check facts before name calling
|
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 14:12:00 -
[1298] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:CCP, if you're making Goonswarm this angry, you must be doing something right. Please continue.
These Siphons should encourage people who run moon mining operations to be active in their space. I hope to see more capabilities against passive income streams in the future. Will I be able to deploy a hacker module and steal researching BPOs next? Sorry but where do you get the idea moon mining is passive? Basically what your asking for is ways to increase your ability for making passive income.
To all those who believe moon mining is easy isk and passive.. Go set up a few pos's and try it for a month, be prepared to not be able to do much of anything else though
|
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1451
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 14:34:00 -
[1299] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Fix Lag wrote:IT'S SPELLED "SIPHON" YOU BLITHERING IDIOT I'm not a yank and choose to spell it the way it is spelt in English Syphon DefinitionMaybe you need to learn how to use a dictionary to check facts before name calling The in-game structure will be called "Siphon". However other words with a similar meaning are spelled in whatever language is irrelevant. Calling it a "syphon" is just as incorrect as "sif+¦n" or "-ü-+-ä-+-+". |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
477
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 15:20:00 -
[1300] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:CCP, if you're making Goonswarm this angry, you must be doing something right. Please continue.
These Siphons should encourage people who run moon mining operations to be active in their space. I hope to see more capabilities against passive income streams in the future. Will I be able to deploy a hacker module and steal researching BPOs next? If by "angry," you mean fabulously wealthy, then yes, please continue with this. You do realize that by making 10-20% of moongoo go poof, you raise the price of moongoo. If we hold the majority of good moons, where does the majority of the money go to buy the moongoo? That is right, right into our pockets. What do we care that a few pennies are stolen, here and there, from our money vault, by those that will actually get to steal some moongoo from us.
Please continue to bleat, "Goon Tears," as you continue to shove money into our pockets You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
|
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 15:34:00 -
[1301] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Andrea Griffin wrote:CCP, if you're making Goonswarm this angry, you must be doing something right. Please continue.
These Siphons should encourage people who run moon mining operations to be active in their space. I hope to see more capabilities against passive income streams in the future. Will I be able to deploy a hacker module and steal researching BPOs next? If by "angry," you mean fabulously wealthy, then yes, please continue with this. You do realize that by making 10-20% of moongoo go poof, you raise the price of moongoo. If we hold the majority of good moons, where does the majority of the money go to buy the moongoo? That is right, right into our pockets. What do we care that a few pennies are stolen, here and there, from our money vault, by those that will actually get to steal some moongoo from us. Please continue to bleat, "Goon Tears," as you continue to shove money into our pockets
That's correct if we assume you will be the only ones not being affected by the theft of resources. To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo.
The term is "overstretching", you can't attack and defend everything at the same time. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1479
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 15:39:00 -
[1302] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:That's correct if we assume you will be the only ones not being affected by the theft of resources. To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo.
The term is "overstretching", you can't attack and defend everything at the same time.
Tell us more about nullsec warfare, bro.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1452
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 15:44:00 -
[1303] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo. Confirming trial alts logged out at POSes reduces the number of people to peeveepee.
There is a clear optimal solution to having your towers siphoned, and it doesn't involve real people wasting their time flying from POS to POS to POS. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1479
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 15:47:00 -
[1304] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo. Confirming trial alts logged out at POSes reduces the number of people to peeveepee. There is a clear optimal solution to having your towers siphoned, and it doesn't involve real people wasting their time flying from POS to POS to POS. It is also probably the worst example of pointless timewaster mechanic CCP has implemented so far.
Nailed it.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
219
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 15:48:00 -
[1305] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote: That's correct if we assume you will be the only ones not being affected by the theft of resources. To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo.
The term is "overstretching", you can't attack and defend everything at the same time.
A lot of wishful thinking here. We HOPE that this is how it will play out. With the change to how many a particular pilot can drop (and I hope CCP also does not allow trial accounts to place them either, which may already be the case depending on the skillset required), that has improved the chances that it will be just that.
The big problem is with Goonswarm's moon operations being so large, along with the amount of actual space they cover with their coalition friends, that it will be harder to "hurt" Goonswarm. Remember, the sweet underside of Goonswarm is going to be deeper into null-sec and will require more time and effort to maintain a presence that could hurt them. To be fair, Goonswarm probably has more to worry about from blues than it will ever have to fear from opponents in the long term.
Now, that being said, I am not saying it isn't possible that this could be the bane of Goonswarm. It is just that Goonswarm has a lot of advantages that are above and beyond a typical alliance. In addition, what Falin wrote is also very correct. Any disturbance that causes market prices to increase will benefit Goonswarm, at least in the short term. Potentially, Goonswarm could be hurt by long term concerted efforts to KEEP siphoning Goonswarm moons.. but that would require a significant level of organization. Though, it is doable. He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
|
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
479
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 15:56:00 -
[1306] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Falin Whalen wrote:Andrea Griffin wrote:CCP, if you're making Goonswarm this angry, you must be doing something right. Please continue.
These Siphons should encourage people who run moon mining operations to be active in their space. I hope to see more capabilities against passive income streams in the future. Will I be able to deploy a hacker module and steal researching BPOs next? If by "angry," you mean fabulously wealthy, then yes, please continue with this. You do realize that by making 10-20% of moongoo go poof, you raise the price of moongoo. If we hold the majority of good moons, where does the majority of the money go to buy the moongoo? That is right, right into our pockets. What do we care that a few pennies are stolen, here and there, from our money vault, by those that will actually get to steal some moongoo from us. Please continue to bleat, "Goon Tears," as you continue to shove money into our pockets That's correct if we assume you will be the only ones not being affected by the theft of resources. To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo. The term is "overstretching", you can't attack and defend everything at the same time. Let's just say that we are in a better position to do just that, than everyone else. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 16:00:00 -
[1307] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo. Confirming trial alts logged out at POSes reduce the number of people to peeveepee. There is a clear optimal solution to having your towers siphoned, and it doesn't involve real people wasting their time flying from POS to POS to POS. It is also probably the worst example of pointless timewaster mechanic CCP has implemented so far.
Nice, because the waste of time and the inability to do PVP was one of your reasons to nerf the syphons. I love you guys. After 20 more pages the syphons probably will be boosted thanks to your posts. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4922
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 16:57:00 -
[1308] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo. Confirming trial alts logged out at POSes reduces the number of people to peeveepee. There is a clear optimal solution to having your towers siphoned, and it doesn't involve real people wasting their time flying from POS to POS to POS. It is also probably the worst example of pointless timewaster mechanic CCP has implemented so far. Nailed it. There's some chaps who love timewaster mechanics.
Structure shoots
Reinforcement timers
Blueballing There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
481
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 17:04:00 -
[1309] - Quote
Please CCP, don't throw us in that there briar patch. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Icesail
Applied Agoraphobia Sinewave Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 18:58:00 -
[1310] - Quote
With all this bitching and moaning on both ends of the stick, this initial addition of siphoning to the game will have little effect to garnering more interaction via pvp.. It does however give those with moons an opportunity to over inflate the price. Given that we currently don't know what current stockpile that the majority moon holders have. The prices could already be over inflated because they're sitting on it. Even if someone drops a siphon on a pos, it takes only from the harvesting array. Not the silo (which would be A LOT more interesting which would justify the complaining in this forum). If any group that will take advantage of this first iteration of moon goo siphoning, it will be the large alliances that have the resources to flood the eve world with the siphons on their enemies.. I won't benefit from siphons this time but I hope CCP moves it in a direction going forward to actually benefit the small groups. I know that I was excited to first hear of guerrilla warfare and siphoning but it certainly isn't as grandiose as they would like you to believe.. CCP's idea of guerrilla warfare is weak as well.. |
|
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
220
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 19:09:00 -
[1311] - Quote
Icesail wrote:I won't benefit from siphons this time but I hope CCP moves it in a direction going forward to actually benefit the small groups. I know that I was excited to first hear of guerrilla warfare and siphoning but it certainly isn't as grandiose as they would like you to believe.. CCP's idea of guerrilla warfare is weak as well..
The threadnaught on this is pretty big, so you can easily miss the part where CCP indicates that it does not classify this mobile unit as part of any "guerilla warfare". They mostly were referring to the warp accerlation and speed changes as well as the mobile cyno jammer unit. He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
|
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
352
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 19:29:00 -
[1312] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Fix Lag wrote:IT'S SPELLED "SIPHON" YOU BLITHERING IDIOT I'm not a yank and choose to spell it the way it is spelt in English Syphon DefinitionMaybe you need to learn how to use a dictionary to check facts before name calling The in-game structure will be called "Siphon". However other words with a similar meaning are spelled in whatever language is irrelevant. Calling it a "syphon" is just as incorrect as " sif+¦n" or " -ü-+-ä-+-+".
Did you take lessons in being a moron or is it just a natural talent? |
Icesail
Applied Agoraphobia Sinewave Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 19:53:00 -
[1313] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:Icesail wrote:I won't benefit from siphons this time but I hope CCP moves it in a direction going forward to actually benefit the small groups. I know that I was excited to first hear of guerrilla warfare and siphoning but it certainly isn't as grandiose as they would like you to believe.. CCP's idea of guerrilla warfare is weak as well.. The threadnaught on this is pretty big, so you can easily miss the part where CCP indicates that it does not classify this mobile unit as part of any "guerilla warfare". They mostly were referring to the warp accerlation and speed changes as well as the mobile cyno jammer unit.
I caught it in the post from CCP. I was pointing out that I as well as others thought it was going to be part of guerrilla warfare when it was first announced. I was disappointed when they said otherwise. Ultimately the first iteration of the siphoning is a minor nuisance to some and a waste of time for making isk. One can only hope that CCP does better on the progression of this potentially game changing addition.
The 2 additions for guerrilla warfare are weak. CCP, shake it up instead of the little girls fart you're currently giving us! |
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
221
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 19:58:00 -
[1314] - Quote
Icesail wrote: I caught it in the post from CCP. I was pointing out that I as well as others thought it was going to be part of guerrilla warfare when it was first announced. I was disappointed when they said otherwise. Ultimately the first iteration of the siphoning is a minor nuisance to some and a waste of time for making isk. One can only hope that CCP does better on the progression of this potentially game changing addition.
The 2 additions for guerrilla warfare are weak. CCP, shake it up instead of the little girls fart you're currently giving us!
Yeah, I was of that same opinion as well, and was also likewise disappointed when CCP stated it too. However, I would disagree with you on the Warp Acceleration/Speed being a weak change. By what I've read and what I've tested, that is going to be a huge change. But that is getting off the Syphon topic, which I agree still could use some work.. and some clarification with the larger versions. He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
|
Catherine Plume
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 20:44:00 -
[1315] - Quote
Finally ! 6 years after I and others submited the idea of ninja moon mining, it is going to be implemented !
Love you CCP !
Link to old forums post #106 |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
427
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 22:45:00 -
[1316] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Varius Xeral wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote: Confirming trial alts logged out at POSes reduces the number of people to peeveepee.
There is a clear optimal solution to having your towers siphoned, and it doesn't involve real people wasting their time flying from POS to POS to POS. It is also probably the worst example of pointless timewaster mechanic CCP has implemented so far.
Nailed it. There's some chaps who love timewaster mechanics. Structure shoots Reinforcement timers Blueballing Cognitive dissonance is an amazing thing. Anytime changes to mechanics are suggested, you throw a fit if that suggestion doesn't include timers.
And here, on the one hand you say that Siphons will be ineffectual because they'll be easily countered by an army of alts. On the other hand, you say the same ineffectual siphons will cut into moon goo supply making you wealthier. Lol.
Grasping at straws much? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4923
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 22:47:00 -
[1317] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Varius Xeral wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote: Confirming trial alts logged out at POSes reduces the number of people to peeveepee.
There is a clear optimal solution to having your towers siphoned, and it doesn't involve real people wasting their time flying from POS to POS to POS. It is also probably the worst example of pointless timewaster mechanic CCP has implemented so far.
Nailed it. There's some chaps who love timewaster mechanics. Structure shoots Reinforcement timers Blueballing Cognitive dissonance is an amazing thing. Anytime changes to mechanics are suggested, you throw a fit if that suggestion doesn't include timers. And here, on the one hand you say that Siphons will be ineffectual because they'll be easily countered by an army of alts. On the other hand, you say the same ineffectual siphons will cut into moon goo supply making you wealthier. Lol. Grasping at straws much? Trolling. Or doublethink. Whichever makes you feel most comfortable ignoring whatever is posted by a goon There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
427
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 22:51:00 -
[1318] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: Trolling. Or doublethink. Whichever makes you feel most comfortable ignoring whatever is posted by a goon
I do hope the larger siphons can be stronted. This expansion will be so much fun. Winter is coming. |
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
487
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 23:25:00 -
[1319] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The rules: 2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. ISD Ezwal Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Herr Esiq
Dirt Nap Squad
76
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 10:47:00 -
[1320] - Quote
If moonming is so damned unprofitable after the patch, why not pull down the POS and deal with it?
Or raise the prices, like thats never been tried/done before.
Just sayin'.. |
|
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 12:21:00 -
[1321] - Quote
Herr Esiq wrote:If moonming is so damned unprofitable after the patch, why not pull down the POS and deal with it?
Or raise the prices, like thats never been tried/done before.
Just sayin'.. If as many believe the smaller lowsec operators are targeted adversely (over and over by griefers) then there is a big chance many will simply pull down poses and move on. This in turn will cause prices to begin to shift, more than likely up as those with a monopoly rarely give out discounts. A lot of what helps keep prices down is competition, from those outside the monopolies, small operators who aren't making billions per month but do it because it's better than running missions or mining, force them out and everyone ends up paying more.
Now the biggest problem for those wishing to target the monopolies is, how do you know if a moon mining operation is really a small solo operator or an alt corp of PL or Goons or one of the other major players in moon goo.
|
Herr Esiq
Dirt Nap Squad
76
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 12:54:00 -
[1322] - Quote
Raise the prices and i (people) just have to steal more. At least now people have a chance to compensate unimposed prices.
And most people just dealt with all the threatsGäó of rising prices since all that OTEC/NOTEC trolling of last year. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 13:37:00 -
[1323] - Quote
Possible consequences of tech II prices getting higher: even better performance/ISK in tech III ships vs tech II ships
Also, keep in mind rebalancing moongoo in lowsec and banning syphons there, just in case. We want problems mainly for big alliances in null. |
Punctator
Billionaires Club The Unthinkables
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 15:34:00 -
[1324] - Quote
hey CCP if you realy want to make something useful - when you make this syphons turn off pos-api. There is too much information availabe out of game in eve, there is no space for grief motherfuckers like goonswarm who have so advenced programs to control information out of game.
there should be no option to check what is in silos and how much is stuff in silos using api to prevent oog syphon detection.
CCP DONT MAKE FUTURE THAT WE CANOT USE AGAINST THE STRONGEST or you just make another fail path. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
840
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 15:46:00 -
[1325] - Quote
Herr Esiq wrote:Raise the prices and i (people) just have to steal more. At least now people have a chance to compensate unimposed prices.
And most people just dealt with all the threatsGäó of rising prices since all that OTEC/NOTEC trolling of last year. That's brilliant! For us, I mean. Because the more you steal, the more it reduces the supply due to the wastage factor. So you do that, buddy! |
Herr Esiq
Dirt Nap Squad
76
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 16:01:00 -
[1326] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Herr Esiq wrote:Raise the prices and i (people) just have to steal more. At least now people have a chance to compensate unimposed prices.
And most people just dealt with all the threatsGäó of rising prices since all that OTEC/NOTEC trolling of last year. That's brilliant! For us, I mean. Because the more you steal, the more it reduces the supply due to the wastage factor. So you do that, buddy! Assuming this isnt one of those threatsGäó that prices will rise; on a individual level if you steal only 50m a month its already profitable compensating for moon minerals. The T2 ingredients in modules dont cost that much, even after an increase.
People dont stop ganking freighters because 'the market would run out of cheap supply'. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1496
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 16:50:00 -
[1327] - Quote
They're not saying "don't introduce siphons because t2 prices will rise", they're saying "despite your ~pubbie bleating about being space gorillas and taking down goonswarm, it's actually only going to benefit goons in the long run strategically, ignoring the entertainment (or lack thereof) aspect of introduction of an otherwise nauseating spam structure mechanic". Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Herr Esiq
Dirt Nap Squad
76
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 16:55:00 -
[1328] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:They're not saying "don't introduce siphons because t2 prices will rise", they're saying "despite your ~pubbie bleating about being space gorillas and taking down goonswarm, it's actually only going to benefit goons in the long run strategically, ignoring the entertainment (or lack thereof) aspect of introduction of an otherwise nauseating spam structure mechanic". I know lots of people suffer from Narcissus complex, but i thought we where just discussing mechanics. Stop dragging Goons into every discussion. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1496
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 17:03:00 -
[1329] - Quote
That's the discussion you're in and that's the argument you are addressing, whether you are aware of it or not. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
843
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 17:06:00 -
[1330] - Quote
Herr Esiq wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Herr Esiq wrote:Raise the prices and i (people) just have to steal more. At least now people have a chance to compensate unimposed prices.
And most people just dealt with all the threatsGäó of rising prices since all that OTEC/NOTEC trolling of last year. That's brilliant! For us, I mean. Because the more you steal, the more it reduces the supply due to the wastage factor. So you do that, buddy! Assuming this isnt one of those threatsGäó that prices will rise; on a individual level if you steal only 50m a month its already profitable compensating for moon minerals. The T2 ingredients in modules dont cost that much, even after an increase. People dont stop ganking freighters because 'the market would run out of cheap supply'. Yet with every ganked freighter some materials are gone forever.
Do you actually think it's a threat to say that if supply goes down and demand stays the same, prices will go up? If so, every introductory economics book is threatening you right now.
You, as a thief, might do very well for yourself under such circumstances, and good for you I say. People holding large stockpiles will also do very well. In both cases, it will be at someone else's expense, and that's Eve. What's so hilarious about this thread is that the "someone else" is clamoring for this change, certain that somehow it will benefit them simply because it appears (to their uncritical eyes) that it will work against their enemies.
|
|
Herr Esiq
Dirt Nap Squad
76
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 17:09:00 -
[1331] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:That's the discussion you're in and that's the argument you are addressing, whether you are aware of it or not. For comedy factor I appreciate you stearing everything towards the Goons, but I live nowhere close to them. Thus your argument is invalid, whether you are aware of it or not.
This is about individuals taking money out of a broken system.
Johnny Marzetti wrote: Do you actually think it's a threat to say that if supply goes down and demand stays the same, prices will go up? If so, every introductory economics book is threatening you right now.
Like you said, the stolen commodities will bring higher value to the market, and I have no problem with that.
Goodpost.. +1 |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
843
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 17:13:00 -
[1332] - Quote
Your hair is not a bird. |
Stevo76
Br0wn Coat5
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 18:18:00 -
[1333] - Quote
I haven't read through 66 pages so not sure if someone has already said this but....
Why not just stick a load of siphon units on your own POS (by alt corp if necessary)? Yeah your yield would be down overall, but if it's your siphon units that are installed first don't they get the goo? Anyone else that comes after would have to blow up all your siphon units for it to be profitable for them, and will come under fire by the POS guns? |
Herr Esiq
Dirt Nap Squad
76
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 18:22:00 -
[1334] - Quote
That wouldnt work because the Siphon Units are like free for all containers. Everyone can take the content out. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1480
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 18:54:00 -
[1335] - Quote
Stevo76 wrote:I haven't read through 66 pages so not sure if someone has already said this but....
Why not just stick a load of siphon units on your own POS (by alt corp if necessary)? Yeah your yield would be down overall, but if it's your siphon units that are installed first don't they get the goo? Anyone else that comes after would have to blow up all your siphon units for it to be profitable for them, and will come under fire by the POS guns? Please do so and tell me where your POS are. I'll show you why it's a good idea.
(Anybody can scoop stuff from a siphon. Fill in the rest yourself.) |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 21:11:00 -
[1336] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Stevo76 wrote:I haven't read through 66 pages so not sure if someone has already said this but....
Why not just stick a load of siphon units on your own POS (by alt corp if necessary)? Yeah your yield would be down overall, but if it's your siphon units that are installed first don't they get the goo? Anyone else that comes after would have to blow up all your siphon units for it to be profitable for them, and will come under fire by the POS guns? Please do so and tell me where your POS are. I'll show you why it's a good idea. (Anybody can scoop stuff from a siphon. Fill in the rest yourself.)
Damn you, I wanted to answer him |
Stevo76
Br0wn Coat5
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 21:39:00 -
[1337] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:Stevo76 wrote:I haven't read through 66 pages so not sure if someone has already said this but....
Why not just stick a load of siphon units on your own POS (by alt corp if necessary)? Yeah your yield would be down overall, but if it's your siphon units that are installed first don't they get the goo? Anyone else that comes after would have to blow up all your siphon units for it to be profitable for them, and will come under fire by the POS guns? Please do so and tell me where your POS are. I'll show you why it's a good idea. (Anybody can scoop stuff from a siphon. Fill in the rest yourself.) Damn you, I wanted to answer him
Thanks lads I had the info I needed from the 1st response. Without trawling 66 pages of people spilling tears about manning their POS.
Fly safe. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4930
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 00:05:00 -
[1338] - Quote
Herr Esiq wrote:Varius Xeral wrote:They're not saying "don't introduce siphons because t2 prices will rise", they're saying "despite your ~pubbie bleating about being space gorillas and taking down goonswarm, it's actually only going to benefit goons in the long run strategically, ignoring the entertainment (or lack thereof) aspect of introduction of an otherwise nauseating spam structure mechanic". I know lots of people suffer from Narcissus complex, but i thought we where just discussing mechanics. Stop dragging Goons into every discussion. Love to be invoked There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
608
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 00:19:00 -
[1339] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Herr Esiq wrote:If moonming is so damned unprofitable after the patch, why not pull down the POS and deal with it?
Or raise the prices, like thats never been tried/done before.
Just sayin'.. If as many believe the smaller lowsec operators are targeted adversely (over and over by griefers) then there is a big chance many will simply pull down poses and move on. This in turn will cause prices to begin to shift, more than likely up as those with a monopoly rarely give out discounts. A lot of what helps keep prices down is competition, from those outside the monopolies, small operators who aren't making billions per month but do it because it's better than running missions or mining, force them out and everyone ends up paying more. Very nicely said. Make no mistake, this is what will end up happening.
We're cutting out our nose to spite the face. Yet in the end, the monopolies will only be stronger with less competition. This will be an excellent tool to grief small POS owners out of business. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4930
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 00:30:00 -
[1340] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Herr Esiq wrote:If moonming is so damned unprofitable after the patch, why not pull down the POS and deal with it?
Or raise the prices, like thats never been tried/done before.
Just sayin'.. If as many believe the smaller lowsec operators are targeted adversely (over and over by griefers) then there is a big chance many will simply pull down poses and move on. This in turn will cause prices to begin to shift, more than likely up as those with a monopoly rarely give out discounts. A lot of what helps keep prices down is competition, from those outside the monopolies, small operators who aren't making billions per month but do it because it's better than running missions or mining, force them out and everyone ends up paying more. Very nicely said. Make no mistake, this is what will end up happening. We're cutting out our nose to spite the face. Yet in the end, the monopolies will only be stronger with less competition. This will be an excellent tool to grief small POS owners out of business. I love seeing new features that hurt goons There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 01:05:00 -
[1341] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Herr Esiq wrote:If moonming is so damned unprofitable after the patch, why not pull down the POS and deal with it?
Or raise the prices, like thats never been tried/done before.
Just sayin'.. If as many believe the smaller lowsec operators are targeted adversely (over and over by griefers) then there is a big chance many will simply pull down poses and move on. This in turn will cause prices to begin to shift, more than likely up as those with a monopoly rarely give out discounts. A lot of what helps keep prices down is competition, from those outside the monopolies, small operators who aren't making billions per month but do it because it's better than running missions or mining, force them out and everyone ends up paying more. Very nicely said. Make no mistake, this is what will end up happening. We're cutting out our nose to spite the face. Yet in the end, the monopolies will only be stronger with less competition. This will be an excellent tool to grief small POS owners out of business. I love seeing new features that hurt goons
"hurt goons" should read, "help goons" I'm sure it was a simple oversight on your part and you hit the wrong keys.
|
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1484
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 01:26:00 -
[1342] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:"hurt goons" should read, "help goons" I'm sure it was a simple oversight on your part and you hit the wrong keys. You will truly understand the game only when you realize that the two are one and the same. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 10:59:00 -
[1343] - Quote
2 moon harvesters feed directly into a reactor then reactor to silo. A syphon is only going to take 25 units of what goes into the silo and lose 10% of that in transit. On a hexite reaction 200 ph is produced so 175 units makes it to the silo safely and the syphon gets 22.5 units?
So syphon's will only take product, raw or simple reaction, inbound to a silo?
I'm sure I saw the answer to this but can't remember what it was or find it now . |
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
68
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 11:07:00 -
[1344] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:2 moon harvesters feed directly into a reactor then reactor to silo. A syphon is only going to take 25 units of what goes into the silo and lose 10% of that in transit. On a hexite reaction 200 ph is produced so 175 units makes it to the silo safely and the syphon gets 22.5 units?
So syphon's will only take product, raw or simple reaction, inbound to a silo?
I'm sure I saw the answer to this but can't remember what it was or find it now . try the dev blog it's in there <Munnkeh> i'm gonna use that excuse if i ever kill someone. "look, if you keep meeting ppl, it's bound to happen eventually" http://i.imgur.com/76pQ9.jpg |
Super Chalupa
Bareback Pornstars Carthage Empires
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 11:57:00 -
[1345] - Quote
Dumb, just dumb. Oh CCP whenever you think you have a great idea, you don't. Maybe, just maybe, you'll figure out why the membership of this game never really grows one day. |
Hot Bird
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 15:55:00 -
[1346] - Quote
Good Afternoon all,
I tested syphon unit this morning and that seems very good, but I'd like to know if this case is normal, then I tried to steal a simple reactor product in a large pos which had a moon harvester OFFLINE and a coupling arry link with OFFLINE too, and surprise my syphon stole the moon harvest product even it was offline.
I think that will be a futur exploit, Harvest a moon without moon harvester online. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 17:20:00 -
[1347] - Quote
Hot Bird wrote:Good Afternoon all,
I tested syphon unit this morning and that seems very good, but I'd like to know if this case is normal, then I tried to steal a simple reactor product in a large pos which had a moon harvester OFFLINE and a coupling arry link with OFFLINE too, and surprise my syphon stole the moon harvest product even it was offline.
I think that will be a futur exploit, Harvest a moon without moon harvester online. That's not an exploit its a bug. If the harvester was offline there is no product for the syphon to steal therefore it should remain idle. If you wanted to be a good pumpkin you could send in a bug report letting them know the mechanic is broken.
Quote: Exert from dev blog; The stealing happens on the production cycles (once per hour). What is stolen comes from the production, thus items in storage are never stolen directly. A siphon unit can only steal from the end of a chain. For example, if a POS has a two Moon Harvester Arrays that are both connected (through a Coupling Array/Silo) to an active Simple Reactor Array, then only the output from the Simple Reactor Array can be stolen. A siphon unit steals from a single chain each production cycle, so it cannot for instance steal both raw material and processed material at the same time. |
Frothgar
V0LTA Triumvirate.
82
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 20:24:00 -
[1348] - Quote
I'm enjoying this change quite a bit. There also seems to be a dynamic that most folks overlook as to why the SOV holders do not want this happening. What comes to mind is currently most moon resources are in the hands of a tiny handful of people in a given alliance. I love the dynamic where anyone can loot the syphon, including members of the corp it's stealing from.
So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place.
I think the SOV holders will say people benefit from the alliance because we provide X Y and Z. But it still remains, you don't give them cash, and this allows your own members to directly take cash anonymously from some entity they're having to normally pay out to.
I can't wait for this feature to go live. ^_^ |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1510
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 20:59:00 -
[1349] - Quote
Yeah, the blue on blue theft is a shining beacon in an otherwise awful mechanic. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1489
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 21:01:00 -
[1350] - Quote
Frothgar wrote:I'm enjoying this change quite a bit. There also seems to be a dynamic that most folks overlook as to why the SOV holders do not want this happening. What comes to mind is currently most moon resources are in the hands of a tiny handful of people in a given alliance. I love the dynamic where anyone can loot the syphon, including members of the corp it's stealing from.
So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place.
I think the SOV holders will say people benefit from the alliance because we provide X Y and Z. But it still remains, you don't give them cash, and this allows your own members to directly take cash anonymously from some entity they're having to normally pay out to.
I can't wait for this feature to go live. ^_^ You've been in some really terrible alliances. Trust me, just quit and find a decent one, don't waste your time stealing peanuts from yours. |
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Huttan Funaila
Terminal Radioactivity Spaceship Samurai
219
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 21:03:00 -
[1351] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Equaniox Maluran wrote:Are siphons going to generate killmails? Yes Hmm. This sounds like a cheap way to get my killboard stats up: anchor siphons on my on POS, and then shoot them. What could go wrong? |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1490
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 22:12:00 -
[1352] - Quote
Huttan Funaila wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Equaniox Maluran wrote:Are siphons going to generate killmails? Yes Hmm. This sounds like a cheap way to get my killboard stats up: anchor siphons on my on POS, and then shoot them. What could go wrong? Just as cheap as buying 10M ships and blowing them up. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4942
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 22:38:00 -
[1353] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Huttan Funaila wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Equaniox Maluran wrote:Are siphons going to generate killmails? Yes Hmm. This sounds like a cheap way to get my killboard stats up: anchor siphons on my on POS, and then shoot them. What could go wrong? Just as cheap as buying 10M ships and blowing them up. Yeah, some cheap t1 frigates should do (the killboards are smart to rookie ship and pod kills).
Of course they cost a lot less. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
917
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 01:25:00 -
[1354] - Quote
Frothgar wrote:So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place.
Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this? |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1512
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 01:35:00 -
[1355] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:Frothgar wrote:So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place. Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this?
lol
my thoughts as well
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4391
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 04:46:00 -
[1356] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:Frothgar wrote:So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place. Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this? Why am I not surprised a Goonswarm FEDERATION guy is trying to make some Ad Hominem attack? . |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4946
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 05:57:00 -
[1357] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Frothgar wrote:So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place. Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this? lol my thoughts as well Does everyone else have such bad policing systems? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Frothgar
V0LTA Triumvirate.
82
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 15:41:00 -
[1358] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Varius Xeral wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Frothgar wrote:So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place. Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this? lol my thoughts as well Does everyone else have such bad policing systems?
You can't tell me that an alliance based on "Harvesting Pubbie Tears" won't be stolen from by its own members.
You can't tell me that every moongoo holding alliance isn't going to have the same problem. There is no recruitment policy that keeps you safe.
Tell you what, how about we do a preemptive experiment.
You guys set all moons and the corperate wallets to full access, and lets see how far the "Bro code" gets you. |
Wrecked Angle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 15:57:00 -
[1359] - Quote
Frothgar wrote:
You can't tell me that an alliance based on "Harvesting Pubbie Tears" won't be stolen from by its own members.
You can't tell me that every moongoo holding alliance isn't going to have the same problem. There is no recruitment policy that keeps you safe.
Tell you what, how about we do a preemptive experiment.
You guys set all moons and the corperate wallets to full access, and lets see how far the "Bro code" gets you.
Crikey yes, you're right! I can see PL and N3 burning spies all over to run off with ~1000m3 of (not so) precious moon goo as well.. |
Penny Nickals
Nickals and Dimes
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 17:00:00 -
[1360] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
Bandwidth vs. Number: An alternative to specifically limiting the number of siphons a character can deploy would be to set up a system that would limit a character's "deployable" bandwidth, with different deployables having different bandwidth values (small siphons - 5; large siphons - 50; large station guns - 25; gate monitors - 25; covert gate monitors - 100). Seems like if you go forward with the long-term, you are going to have a large number of potential of mobile deployables. Forcing players to choose between the types they have deployed creates a system with a lot more trades:
- Would I rather deploy 10x small mobile slow siphons that pull 60 raw, take a day to fill, and have 10% wastage; or would I rather deploy 5x small mobile fast siphons that pull 90 raw, take an hour to fill, and have 20% wastage.
- Would I rather be able to deploy siphons to inhibit my enemy, or would I rather deploy guns/features to defend my corps/alliances POS/station.
- Would I rather have 4-hour intelligence monitoring deployable would that notify me/corps/alliance when reds/neutrals/blues jump through gates or dock/undock from stations; or would I rather set-up a 4-hour minefield on a single gate.
Given the limited number of mobile deployables you all have, the trades wouldn't be all that meaningful now. As you add more, though, harder choices are created, creating more interesting gameplay. If you tied the bandwidth to a mobile deployables skill, as each expansion rolled out you could add more skills that increased bandwidth, maybe a progression in-line with the trade skills. Another advantage of bandwidth vs. number is that it could make specific deployables easier to balance against others. If mobile siphons are too strong, one option for balance is to increase their required bandwidth relative to other deployables. Still may need to form of capacity limiter on certain types of deployables to address some of the other concerns in this thread.
Deployable Bays; Maybe Deployables vs. Drones: Would be interesting if long-term mobile deployables had their own bays; where certain ships (e.g. minelayers/mine sweepers, moon pillagers, station managers) could specialize in them. One option for doing that is to make deployables deploy out of drone bays. Current drone mechanic really doesn't seem to provide a lot of meaningful trades/options. Would be interesting long-term if you wanted deployables, you had to trade some of that drone bay capacity. This wouldn't have to bias the game in favor in drone boats for deployables; you could give a lot of ships drone/deployable capacity without giving them drone bandwidth. |
|
Frothgar
V0LTA Triumvirate.
82
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 17:16:00 -
[1361] - Quote
Wrecked Angle wrote:Frothgar wrote:
You can't tell me that an alliance based on "Harvesting Pubbie Tears" won't be stolen from by its own members.
You can't tell me that every moongoo holding alliance isn't going to have the same problem. There is no recruitment policy that keeps you safe.
Tell you what, how about we do a preemptive experiment.
You guys set all moons and the corperate wallets to full access, and lets see how far the "Bro code" gets you.
Crikey yes, you're right! I can see PL and N3 burning spies all over to run off with ~1000m3 of (not so) precious moon goo as well..
I don't think you quite understand. You enemies will always drop siphons, your own members will be taking from them consequence free. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
487
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 21:34:00 -
[1362] - Quote
Frothgar wrote:Wrecked Angle wrote:Frothgar wrote:
You can't tell me that an alliance based on "Harvesting Pubbie Tears" won't be stolen from by its own members.
You can't tell me that every moongoo holding alliance isn't going to have the same problem. There is no recruitment policy that keeps you safe.
Tell you what, how about we do a preemptive experiment.
You guys set all moons and the corperate wallets to full access, and lets see how far the "Bro code" gets you.
Crikey yes, you're right! I can see PL and N3 burning spies all over to run off with ~1000m3 of (not so) precious moon goo as well.. I don't think you quite understand. You enemies will always drop siphons, your own members will be taking from them consequence free. Hmmm. Go around hauling thousands of m3 for a little ISK when I finally ship it to Jita to sell, shoot a siphon and get a bounty for each one that I destroy API verified, or shoot red crosses and get ISK every twenty min? Gee, I'm stummped on this one guys, help me out here. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Michael Angelo Batio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 23:40:00 -
[1363] - Quote
I Love Boobies wrote:Funny how certain entities are upset they will have to watch their POS, where they will actually have to worry about their profits now. I for one think it's a pleasant idea. Will be fun to deploy them just to mess with people. Cloaky ships, small m3... nice. Now it's the small corps chance to grief the larger entities in game.
This... and lets be honest here, how many POS's doing moon mining are there in the whole game, will every single one really be effected by this?
Slight small point, if you are one of the POS owners that do NOT get hit and others producing the same crap do, doesnt that mean more profit for you? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4952
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 01:21:00 -
[1364] - Quote
Michael Angelo Batio wrote:I Love Boobies wrote:Funny how certain entities are upset they will have to watch their POS, where they will actually have to worry about their profits now. I for one think it's a pleasant idea. Will be fun to deploy them just to mess with people. Cloaky ships, small m3... nice. Now it's the small corps chance to grief the larger entities in game. This... and lets be honest here, how many POS's doing moon mining are there in the whole game, will every single one really be effected by this? Slight small point, if you are one of the POS owners that do NOT get hit and others producing the same crap do, doesnt that mean more profit for you? grr goons There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
917
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 02:14:00 -
[1365] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Frothgar wrote:So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place. Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this? Why am I not surprised a Goonswarm FEDERATION guy is trying to make some Ad Hominem attack?
First of all, no one gives a shit what kind of fancy-pants Latin name an insult qualifies as. Secondly, in this case, it's entirely based on fact--Triumvirate was, like the original NC and others, corrupt and financially opaque.
If you'd like to submit that Goonswarm Federation is "just as bad" you'll have to somehow get rid of our API-based finance spreadsheets that are public and convince everyone that we don't make money so that people can have fun. I'm sure you'll do a good job of that Marlona, just like you've done a good job convincing me that the siphons are not in fact going to be used precisely as every GSF/CFC/reasonably intelligent person in this thread has said. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 02:29:00 -
[1366] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Frothgar wrote:Wrecked Angle wrote:Frothgar wrote:
You can't tell me that an alliance based on "Harvesting Pubbie Tears" won't be stolen from by its own members.
You can't tell me that every moongoo holding alliance isn't going to have the same problem. There is no recruitment policy that keeps you safe.
Tell you what, how about we do a preemptive experiment.
You guys set all moons and the corperate wallets to full access, and lets see how far the "Bro code" gets you.
Crikey yes, you're right! I can see PL and N3 burning spies all over to run off with ~1000m3 of (not so) precious moon goo as well.. I don't think you quite understand. You enemies will always drop siphons, your own members will be taking from them consequence free. Hmmm. Go around hauling thousands of m3 for a little ISK when I finally ship it to Jita to sell, shoot a siphon and get a bounty for each one that I destroy API verified, or shoot red crosses and get ISK every twenty min? Gee, I'm stummped on this one guys, help me out here. Can I claim the Goon offered spyhon bounties, it will more likely pay better than anchoring them.
|
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
488
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 03:14:00 -
[1367] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote: Can I claim the Goon offered spyhon bounties, it will more likely pay better than anchoring them. For a small security deposit, I can get you in on those Goon siphon bounties. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
383
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 05:25:00 -
[1368] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
I still want to hear you use the word "skill" in relation to this siphon deployable. EVE is, after all, a game featuring character sheets with character skillz on them. Skillz mean that characters are different from each other, in terms of what they can do, and how well they can do what they can do.
But not here. In this particularly case, siphoning, everyone is uniquely alike in that they are all equally good at doing it. Everywhere else, in EVE, there's a skill to differentiate and individualize characters, but for some reason not here.
What is that reason? |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 05:55:00 -
[1369] - Quote
Salpad wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think. I still want to hear you use the word "skill" in relation to this siphon deployable. EVE is, after all, a game featuring character sheets with character skillz on them. Skillz mean that characters are different from each other, in terms of what they can do, and how well they can do what they can do. But not here. In this particularly case, siphoning, everyone is uniquely alike in that they are all equally good at doing it. Everywhere else, in EVE, there's a skill to differentiate and individualize characters, but for some reason not here. What is that reason? Is a one size fits all griefing tool. Skill requirement = the ability to fly anything with greater than 10m cargo hold, or shuttle if you have 1 target.
|
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4391
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 08:22:00 -
[1370] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Frothgar wrote:So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place. Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this? Why am I not surprised a Goonswarm FEDERATION guy is trying to make some Ad Hominem attack? First of all, no one gives a sh it what kind of fancy-pants Latin name an insult qualifies as. Secondly, in this case, it's entirely based on fact--Triumvirate was, like the original NC and others, corrupt and financially opaque. If you'd like to submit that Goonswarm Federation is "just as bad" you'll have to somehow get rid of our API-based finance spreadsheets that are public and convince everyone that we don't make money so that people can have fun. I'm sure you'll do a good job of that Marlona, just like you've done a good job convincing me that the siphons are not in fact going to be used precisely as every GSF/CFC/reasonably intelligent person in this thread has said. The fact you guys rely so heavily on API is why you guys are furious about having to actually have eyes out in your space to watch for the siphons. What can I say, but perhaps you guys should undock and go check them on your own initiative instead of waiting for some API finance team telling you what to do.
Free will bro. Embrace it. . |
|
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1730
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 10:30:00 -
[1371] - Quote
> joke is made at the expense of a corp > marlona sky falsely describes it as an 'ad hominem attack' > marlona sky makes an ad hominem attack |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1512
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 11:53:00 -
[1372] - Quote
Salpad wrote:I still want to hear you use the word "skill" in relation to this siphon deployable. EVE is, after all, a game featuring character sheets with character skillz on them. Skillz mean that characters are different from each other, in terms of what they can do, and how well they can do what they can do.
But not here. In this particularly case, siphoning, everyone is uniquely alike in that they are all equally good at doing it. Everywhere else, in EVE, there's a skill to differentiate and individualize characters, but for some reason not here.
What is that reason? CCP explicitly wants you to use trial alts to drop these. From https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3778775#post3778775 :
CCP Paradox wrote:And as somebody said, "alts". These units require no skills to deploy, so anyone can deploy them.
|
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
489
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 13:54:00 -
[1373] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Frothgar wrote:So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place. Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this? Why am I not surprised a Goonswarm FEDERATION guy is trying to make some Ad Hominem attack? First of all, no one gives a sh it what kind of fancy-pants Latin name an insult qualifies as. Secondly, in this case, it's entirely based on fact--Triumvirate was, like the original NC and others, corrupt and financially opaque. If you'd like to submit that Goonswarm Federation is "just as bad" you'll have to somehow get rid of our API-based finance spreadsheets that are public and convince everyone that we don't make money so that people can have fun. I'm sure you'll do a good job of that Marlona, just like you've done a good job convincing me that the siphons are not in fact going to be used precisely as every GSF/CFC/reasonably intelligent person in this thread has said. The fact you guys rely so heavily on API is why you guys are furious about having to actually have eyes out in your space to watch for the siphons. What can I say, but perhaps you guys should undock and go check them on your own initiative instead of waiting for some API finance team telling you what to do. Free will bro. Embrace it. Why yes, I too want to have a second job managing my POS after I get off work. Thank you for more tedious work that I have to do. FREE WILL!!! You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
918
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 15:03:00 -
[1374] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:The fact you guys rely so heavily on API is why you guys are furious about having to actually have eyes out in your space to watch for the siphons. What can I say, but perhaps you guys should undock and go check them on your own initiative instead of waiting for some API finance team telling you what to do. Free will bro. Embrace it.
You dumb sod. We have more manpower than any other group in the game. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4965
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 15:09:00 -
[1375] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Salpad wrote:I still want to hear you use the word "skill" in relation to this siphon deployable. EVE is, after all, a game featuring character sheets with character skillz on them. Skillz mean that characters are different from each other, in terms of what they can do, and how well they can do what they can do.
But not here. In this particularly case, siphoning, everyone is uniquely alike in that they are all equally good at doing it. Everywhere else, in EVE, there's a skill to differentiate and individualize characters, but for some reason not here.
What is that reason? CCP explicitly wants you to use trial alts to drop these. From https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3778775#post3778775 : CCP Paradox wrote:And as somebody said, "alts". These units require no skills to deploy, so anyone can deploy them. I guess more alts means more subs for CCP (assuming at least some people are too dumb to realize you can just recycle trial alts, you don't actually have to sub anything to check on your POSes.) mmm alts !!! There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
439
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 22:24:00 -
[1376] - Quote
TL;DR of the last 60 pages:
CFC doesn't like it when people can steal their moon goo. :shocking: |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
493
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 22:54:00 -
[1377] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:TL;DR of the last 60 pages:
CFC doesn't like it when people can steal their moon goo. :shocking: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
You haven't read the last ~60 pages then. The perpetually dim, such as yourself, are bleating, "Goon tears." Actual Goons are stating that this is the greatest griefing tool since remote doomsdays. 10% of moongoo will go poof raising moongoo prices, and since we have the largest player base in null, and most of the best moons(and largest stockpile of moongoo as well), we stand to gain the most from this little wonder toy than anybody else. What do we care that a few people will actually steal a few pennies from our pocket, when millions will flow into our pockets daily, from the very people bleating about "Goon tears."
Please continue to bleat, "Goon tears," while you line our pockets with ISK when you buy anything T2. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
439
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 23:19:00 -
[1378] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:TL;DR of the last 60 pages:
CFC doesn't like it when people can steal their moon goo. :shocking: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! You haven't read the last ~60 pages then. The perpetually dim, such as yourself, are bleating, "Goon tears." Actual Goons are stating that this is the greatest griefing tool since remote doomsdays. 10% of moongoo will go poof raising moongoo prices, and since we have the largest player base in null, and most of the best moons(and largest stockpile of moongoo as well), we stand to gain the most from this little wonder toy than anybody else. What do we care that a few people will actually steal a few pennies from our pocket, when millions will flow into our pockets daily, from the very people bleating about "Goon tears." Please continue to bleat, "Goon tears," while you line our pockets with ISK when you buy anything T2. On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent.
On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything.
Cognitive dissonance much? |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1528
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 23:24:00 -
[1379] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent. On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything. Cognitive dissonance much? Newsflash, the CFC doesn't have a single hive mind. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and those opinions may differ. |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
439
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 23:29:00 -
[1380] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent. On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything. Cognitive dissonance much? Newsflash, the CFC doesn't have a single hive mind. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and those opinions may differ. So what you're saying is that no one actually knows how these changes will play out, and we should maybe see how they work on the live server before making unnecessary changes?
I can live with that. |
|
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1348
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 23:36:00 -
[1381] - Quote
We should have like some place where we can discuss ideas and talk it over.
Like this thread. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
493
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 00:28:00 -
[1382] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent. On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything. Cognitive dissonance much? "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks. " -General "Buck" Turgidson You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
68
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 02:04:00 -
[1383] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent. On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything. Cognitive dissonance much? it's called reading, you know that thing they taught you in grade school? cause if you would have done such you would see that the siphon wont hurt the goons much because they have the numbers to keep their space clear of siphons however any smaller entity (ie 99% of low sec moon mining) doesn't have the numbers and will be hurt to the point that alot of them will simply stop moon mining...which in turn means that those able to prevent the theft (ie goons) get more isk due to less supply of moon minerals on the market. how many times must we provide the evidence before yall see the light? <Munnkeh> i'm gonna use that excuse if i ever kill someone. "look, if you keep meeting ppl, it's bound to happen eventually" http://i.imgur.com/76pQ9.jpg |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 02:24:00 -
[1384] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent. On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything. Cognitive dissonance much? Newsflash, the CFC doesn't have a single hive mind. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and those opinions may differ. So what you're saying is that no one actually knows how these changes will play out, and we should maybe see how they work on the live server before making unnecessary changes to siphons? I can live with that. As a griefing tool it is pretty clear how the current syphon mechanics will play out. Griefers are by nature pretty lazy and go for soft targets (valuable but easy to kill and or disrupt financially). The softest targets for this group will be lowsec operations which in most cases are not aligned with the CFC or any other major entity involved in moon mining, therefore often don't have the manpower to guard towers 24/7. These small operators getting taken out of the Goo industry is nothing more than profit for the bigger entities as their stockpiles alone will fetch higher prices than before and even with say a 20% reduction in their production (possible losses from the odd successful syphon). The large entities can't do anything but profit as they will be the only ones with product to sell.
Some have stated simply using syphon's to destroy moon goo by jetting syphoned product and popping cans. This too only helps the bigger groups. Less product + same demand = higher prices.
Final result, we all pay more for anything made from moon goo (and big stake holders just get richer)
|
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
439
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 04:39:00 -
[1385] - Quote
Ah yes, the mythological small-entity moon miner. Much like the fabled unicorn of olde. It's simply heartwarming to see all of the larger moon mining entities rise up to the defense of the little man.
And of course, these small-entity moon miners control the most valuable of low sec moons and would naturally be the first targets of so-called griefers, unlike all of the big entities which content themselves with the more worthless moons. You lot are truly magnanimous. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4982
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 05:06:00 -
[1386] - Quote
Can't wait to hear about the larger siphons There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
249
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 09:04:00 -
[1387] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Ah yes, the mythological small-entity moon miner. Much like the fabled unicorn of olde. It's simply heartwarming to see all of the larger moon mining entities rise up to the defense of the little man.
Sgt Ocker wrote: As a griefing tool it is pretty clear how the current syphon mechanics will play out. Griefers are by nature pretty lazy and go for soft targets (valuable but easy to kill and or disrupt financially). The softest targets for this group will be lowsec operations which in most cases are not aligned with the CFC or any other major entity involved in moon mining, therefore often don't have the manpower to guard towers 24/7.
'Lowsec operations' aren't necessarily moon mining. A good chunk of T2 materials are produced from low-sec reaction farms, with very little mining taking place. That's the kind of operation that will suffer most from griefing. |
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
68
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 10:14:00 -
[1388] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Ah yes, the mythological small-entity moon miner. Much like the fabled unicorn of olde. It's simply heartwarming to see all of the larger moon mining entities rise up to the defense of the little man.
And of course, these small-entity moon miners control the most valuable of low sec moons and would naturally be the first targets of so-called griefers, unlike all of the big entities which content themselves with the more worthless moons. You lot are truly magnanimous. *wonders when I became mythological..does this mean I get to use Zeus's thunderbolt?
go wander around lowsec for a few jumps and you will find this mythological guy isn't as rare as you imply <Munnkeh> i'm gonna use that excuse if i ever kill someone. "look, if you keep meeting ppl, it's bound to happen eventually" http://i.imgur.com/76pQ9.jpg |
Dagda Morr
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 11:48:00 -
[1389] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Ah yes, the mythological small-entity moon miner. Much like the fabled unicorn of olde. It's simply heartwarming to see all of the larger moon mining entities rise up to the defense of the little man.
And of course, these small-entity moon miners control the most valuable of low sec moons and would naturally be the first targets of so-called griefers, unlike all of the big entities which content themselves with the more worthless moons. You lot are truly magnanimous.
I don't think you know much about lowsec or null - there are plenty of small groups mining a bit of cadmium here or mercury there making a few hundred mil per tower. Big entities don't care abou those moons - the effort to take and hold them is not worth it. You also have those guys that buy raw mins on buy orders, react it to add value and sell to sell orders in Jita - this is the prime way small to medium sized independant corps make money. Big groups cannot bear to shoot more POS's so ignore these towers.
However
Siphons in their current incarnation will allow large, organised groups to make swathes of low and npc null utterly worthless for this type of activity. Bearing in mind how much the cfc spent on grifing miners and jita, the trivial cost and small size of these units are made for spamming every reaction tower or mining tower in lowsec and npc null. We will likely take a bit of a hit but we are just going to organise to sweep our towers - we'll do it even though we hate it becasue it will drive up the profit for us to spend on making other people cry.
Siphons are not bad - we don't need a limit on them, they just need to be bigger and cost a bit more. When you can fill a blockade runner with a hundred for just a billion and shutdown a POS-based income in a constellation solo, ccp need to have a look if this is really what they want or intend.
Nullsec will adapt - the guys "intended" to be hurt by this will adapt, and they will make a point of abusing it until its nerfed just for the smug satisfaction of being right. |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
610
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 12:31:00 -
[1390] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Ah yes, the mythological small-entity moon miner. Much like the fabled unicorn of olde. It's simply heartwarming to see all of the larger moon mining entities rise up to the defense of the little man.
And of course, these small-entity moon miners control the most valuable of low sec moons and would naturally be the first targets of so-called griefers, unlike all of the big entities which content themselves with the more worthless moons. You lot are truly magnanimous. Mythological? I'd wager that at least in lo sec, the vast majority of non-goo producing moons are held by small corporations and alliances. And these moons are where the bulk of T2 reactions take place.
As a reaction moon owner falling under "small corporations", I can tell you with confidence I will close shop if I get hit with these to the point where it is no longer profitable, as I simply cannot babysit my moons 24/7, unlike the larger alliances. It's not hard to see how the introduction of syphons will end benefiting the largest alliances, not hurting them.
Between grief players targeting smaller corps (as these are the softest and easiest targets) and large alliances incentivizing the use of siphons on their competitors it has now become extremely easy to knock out the smaller moon owners out of the way. |
|
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1302
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 12:40:00 -
[1391] - Quote
[quote=MatrixSkye Mk2]Mythological? I'd wager that at least in lo sec, the vast majority of non-goo producing moons are held by small corporations and alliances. And these moons are where the bulk of T2 reactions take place.
As a reaction moon owner falling under "small corporations", I can tell you with confidence I will close shop if I get hit with these to the point where it is no longer profitable, as I simply cannot babysit my moons 24/7, unlike the larger alliances. It's not hard to see how the introduction of syphons will end benefiting the largest alliances, not hurting them./quote] You can't siphon from complex reaction arrays... Nyan |
Dagda Morr
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 12:44:00 -
[1392] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Mythological? I'd wager that at least in lo sec, the vast majority of non-goo producing moons are held by small corporations and alliances. And these moons are where the bulk of T2 reactions take place.
As a reaction moon owner falling under "small corporations", I can tell you with confidence I will close shop if I get hit with these to the point where it is no longer profitable, as I simply cannot babysit my moons 24/7, unlike the larger alliances. It's not hard to see how the introduction of syphons will end benefiting the largest alliances, not hurting them. You can't siphon from complex reaction arrays...
The simple reactants have to come from somewhere...... |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1302
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 12:59:00 -
[1393] - Quote
Dagda Morr wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote:You can't siphon from complex reaction arrays... The simple reactants have to come from somewhere...... Only endpoints can be siphoned, so just do the simple reaction as an input to the complex, nothing will be stolen. Nyan |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
611
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 12:59:00 -
[1394] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Mythological? I'd wager that at least in lo sec, the vast majority of non-goo producing moons are held by small corporations and alliances. And these moons are where the bulk of T2 reactions take place.
As a reaction moon owner falling under "small corporations", I can tell you with confidence I will close shop if I get hit with these to the point where it is no longer profitable, as I simply cannot babysit my moons 24/7, unlike the larger alliances. It's not hard to see how the introduction of syphons will end benefiting the largest alliances, not hurting them. You can't siphon from complex reaction arrays... YET Fixed.
In any case, I wasn't referring to complex reactions alone. You need moon and intermediate materials for complex reactions. The effect trickles up. |
Mister McDerp
University of Caille Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 13:38:00 -
[1395] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Dagda Morr wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote:You can't siphon from complex reaction arrays... The simple reactants have to come from somewhere...... Only endpoints can be siphoned, so just do the simple reaction as an input to the complex, nothing will be stolen.
Fairly sure that is wrong, it will steal from the simple reaction as it is "unloading" into the silo. |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
397
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 14:28:00 -
[1396] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent. On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything. Cognitive dissonance much?
Something can be ****** for everyone while still being significantly more ****** for you than it is for me. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1302
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 15:06:00 -
[1397] - Quote
Mister McDerp wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Dagda Morr wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote:You can't siphon from complex reaction arrays... The simple reactants have to come from somewhere...... Only endpoints can be siphoned, so just do the simple reaction as an input to the complex, nothing will be stolen. Fairly sure that is wrong, it will steal from the simple reaction as it is "unloading" into the silo. Fairly sure you need to read the devblog again and understand how the system works. Nyan |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
611
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 16:18:00 -
[1398] - Quote
Yeep wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent. On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything. Cognitive dissonance much? Something can be ****** for everyone while still being significantly more ****** for you than it is for me. Yup. And this is exactly why this change will end up benefiting the power bloc alliances. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1302
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 16:40:00 -
[1399] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Yup. And this is exactly why this change will end up benefiting the power bloc alliances. Cause they are the ones that live in the space where their moons are~~~ Nyan |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
441
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 20:05:00 -
[1400] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote: *wonders when I became mythological..does this mean I get to use Zeus's thunderbolt?
go wander around lowsec for a few jumps and you will find this mythological guy isn't as rare as you imply
How many dyspro moons are held by small lowsec entities? How many dyspro moons are held by the larger entities? What about other R64's? Yeah, exactly.
Many small entities do indeed run complex reactions in lowsec, but those aren't affected by these particular siphons. If and when siphons are introduced that do have an effect on reaction arrays, then those siphons can be adjusted as necessary.
If you think people are going to siphon R8 moons held by the little guy instead of siphoning R64 moons held by the big guys, you need to have your head examined.
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Yup. And this is exactly why this change will end up benefiting the power bloc alliances. Cause they are the ones that live in the space where their moons are~~~ Truly, their concern for the little guy is touching. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4987
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 21:25:00 -
[1401] - Quote
Keep it up guys, the goons are terrified There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 21:42:00 -
[1402] - Quote
Dagda Morr wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Ah yes, the mythological small-entity moon miner. Much like the fabled unicorn of olde. It's simply heartwarming to see all of the larger moon mining entities rise up to the defense of the little man.
And of course, these small-entity moon miners control the most valuable of low sec moons and would naturally be the first targets of so-called griefers, unlike all of the big entities which content themselves with the more worthless moons. You lot are truly magnanimous. I don't think you know much about lowsec or null - there are plenty of small groups mining a bit of cadmium here or mercury there making a few hundred mil per tower. Big entities don't care abou those moons - the effort to take and hold them is not worth it. You also have those guys that buy raw mins on buy orders, react it to add value and sell to sell orders in Jita - this is the prime way small to medium sized independant corps make money. Big groups cannot bear to shoot more POS's so ignore these towers. However Siphons in their current incarnation will allow large, organised groups to make swathes of low and npc null utterly worthless for this type of activity. Bearing in mind how much the cfc spent on grifing miners and jita, the trivial cost and small size of these units are made for spamming every reaction tower or mining tower in lowsec and npc null. We will likely take a bit of a hit but we are just going to organise to sweep our towers - we'll do it even though we hate it becasue it will drive up the profit for us to spend on making other people cry. Siphons are not bad - we don't need a limit on them, they just need to be bigger and cost a bit more. When you can fill a blockade runner with a hundred for just a billion and shutdown a POS-based income in a constellation solo, ccp need to have a look if this is really what they want or intend. Nullsec will adapt - the guys "intended" to be hurt by this will adapt, and they will make a point of abusing it until its nerfed just for the smug satisfaction of being right.
I have said it several times. Banning syphons from lowsec means problem solved for little alliances. Rebalance the moongoo in lowsec in case there is any problem (but it shouldn't be) |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
449
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 21:53:00 -
[1403] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:
I have said it several times. Banning syphons from lowsec means problem solved for little alliances. Rebalance the moongoo in lowsec in case there is any problem (but it shouldn't be)
I agree, It is important to protect the lowsec R32 and R64 assets of small entities like pandemic legion. |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
43
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 23:23:00 -
[1404] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Frothgar wrote:So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place. Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this? Why am I not surprised a Goonswarm FEDERATION guy is trying to make some Ad Hominem attack? First of all, no one gives a sh it what kind of fancy-pants Latin name an insult qualifies as. Secondly, in this case, it's entirely based on fact--Triumvirate was, like the original NC and others, corrupt and financially opaque. If you'd like to submit that Goonswarm Federation is "just as bad" you'll have to somehow get rid of our API-based finance spreadsheets that are public and convince everyone that we don't make money so that people can have fun. I'm sure you'll do a good job of that Marlona, just like you've done a good job convincing me that the siphons are not in fact going to be used precisely as every GSF/CFC/reasonably intelligent person in this thread has said. The fact you guys rely so heavily on API is why you guys are furious about having to actually have eyes out in your space to watch for the siphons. What can I say, but perhaps you guys should undock and go check them on your own initiative instead of waiting for some API finance team telling you what to do. Free will bro. Embrace it.
Demands we patrol and watch our space, outsources living in his space to renters. Claims moons are passive AFK income, demands passive AFK module to grief them. Has bare facts pointed out to him, demands ISD stop Goons trolling him. Yup Marlona Sky, Cognitive Dissonance is your real name. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4988
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 01:17:00 -
[1405] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote: First of all, no one gives a shit what kind of fancy-pants Latin name an insult qualifies as. Secondly, in this case, it's entirely based on fact--Triumvirate was, like the original NC and others, corrupt and financially opaque.
If you'd like to submit that Goonswarm Federation is "just as bad" you'll have to somehow get rid of our API-based finance spreadsheets that are public and convince everyone that we don't make money so that people can have fun. I'm sure you'll do a good job of that Marlona, just like you've done a good job convincing me that the siphons are not in fact going to be used precisely as every GSF/CFC/reasonably intelligent person in this thread has said.
The fact you guys rely so heavily on API is why you guys are furious about having to actually have eyes out in your space to watch for the siphons. What can I say, but perhaps you guys should undock and go check them on your own initiative instead of waiting for some API finance team telling you what to do. Free will bro. Embrace it. Demands we patrol and watch our space, outsources living in his space to renters. Claims moons are passive AFK income, demands passive AFK module to grief them. Has bare facts pointed out to him, demands ISD stop Goons trolling him. Yup Marlona Sky, Cognitive Dissonance is your real name. As long as the renters are patroling and watching the space, what is the problem?
Since they prioneered the afk pvp concept, why bother. They also probably learned from Pandemic "our supers, so many some don't even have subscriptions anymore" Legion.
There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
NinjaTurtle
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
46
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 04:25:00 -
[1406] - Quote
The griefing potential is there and it seems super cool. I just don't get why you'd design them to allow more than one on a single pos AND have them pull a flat value instead of a percentage. Does that really not seem broken?
If you're going to allow more than one they need to NOT pull the entire moon miner's output once you've anchored two of them... (In the instance of say a straight mining tower) Co-host and editor of Declarations of War Podcast http://declarationsofwar.com Twitter- @schertt |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 05:18:00 -
[1407] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:
I have said it several times. Banning syphons from lowsec means problem solved for little alliances. Rebalance the moongoo in lowsec in case there is any problem (but it shouldn't be)
I agree, It is important to protect the lowsec R32 and R64 assets of small entities like pandemic legion. And of course because we don't know if XYZ corp with 1 R32 is aligned with PL or Goons we need to take it out as well, just in case or simply because it is easy as they are going to be soft targets due to limited numbers to defend their pos's. Meanwhile, those with the most to lose sit back and begin to count the profits as they DON'T have moons in lowsec AND DO have the ability to protect their operations.
Screw it all lets just stick to syphoning pos's in lowsec and npc nul, they are much easier to hit than those 30+ jumps into hostile nulsec (where the major isk is made)
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4988
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 05:23:00 -
[1408] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:
I have said it several times. Banning syphons from lowsec means problem solved for little alliances. Rebalance the moongoo in lowsec in case there is any problem (but it shouldn't be)
I agree, It is important to protect the lowsec R32 and R64 assets of small entities like pandemic legion. And of course because we don't know if XYZ corp with 1 R32 is aligned with PL or Goons we need to take it out as well, just in case or simply because it is easy as they are going to be soft targets due to limited numbers to defend their pos's. Meanwhile, those with the most to lose sit back and begin to count the profits as they DON'T have moons in lowsec AND DO have the ability to protect their operations. Screw it all lets just stick to syphoning pos's in lowsec and npc nul, they are much easier to hit than those 30+ jumps into hostile nulsec (where the major isk is made) The blue donut is pretty deep and can be annoying to get to the corners of...
However, CCP has given you the new gate jumping animation, which you will get to watch many times over ! There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 08:47:00 -
[1409] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Zakhin Desver wrote:
I have said it several times. Banning syphons from lowsec means problem solved for little alliances. Rebalance the moongoo in lowsec in case there is any problem (but it shouldn't be)
I agree, It is important to protect the lowsec R32 and R64 assets of small entities like pandemic legion. And of course because we don't know if XYZ corp with 1 R32 is aligned with PL or Goons we need to take it out as well, just in case or simply because it is easy as they are going to be soft targets due to limited numbers to defend their pos's. Meanwhile, those with the most to lose sit back and begin to count the profits as they DON'T have moons in lowsec AND DO have the ability to protect their operations. Screw it all lets just stick to syphoning pos's in lowsec and npc nul, they are much easier to hit than those 30+ jumps into hostile nulsec (where the major isk is made) The blue donut is pretty deep and can be annoying to get to the corners of... However, CCP has given you the new gate jumping animation, which you will get to watch many times over ! Nope, I like most others simply won't waste my time. Spending time in nul looking for a fight once in a while is ok but going there to sit and watch isk simply go boom for nothing is not my idea of fun. 10mil isk at a time doesn't sound much but lose 10 or 15 of them it starts to add up. Even if I did successfully manage to syphon enough to make the risk and time spent viable, I have no way of moving it out of nul to try and sell it. Could use a Blockade runner but putting up 10 syphon's then hanging around for 24hrs hoping no-one finds them ( or emptying them every few hours, LOL) so you can collect your harvest?? Pfff, I can think of many other things I'd rather do
Goons are on a big win with syphon's for now, enjoy it.
|
Dagda Morr
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
23
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 09:40:00 -
[1410] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Omega Flames wrote: *wonders when I became mythological..does this mean I get to use Zeus's thunderbolt?
go wander around lowsec for a few jumps and you will find this mythological guy isn't as rare as you imply
How many dyspro moons are held by small lowsec entities? How many dyspro moons are held by the larger entities? What about other R64's? Yeah, exactly. Many small entities do indeed run complex reactions in lowsec, but those aren't affected by these particular siphons. If and when siphons are introduced that do have an effect on reaction arrays, then those siphons can be adjusted as necessary. If you think people are going to siphon R8 moons held by the little guy instead of siphoning R64 moons held by the big guys, you need to have your head examined. Rakshasa Taisab wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Yup. And this is exactly why this change will end up benefiting the power bloc alliances. Cause they are the ones that live in the space where their moons are~~~ Truly, their concern for the little guy is touching.
You are completely detatched from reality - plenty of small entities run simple reactions in low and NPC space all the time. Just becasue you are incredibly poorly informed and desperate to join on a bandwagon does not make what you say true.
You are right that nobody cares about R8 moons - but you should have a look at what cadmium, caesium and chromium moons ect are worth if you mine them. Plenty of small and medium sized groups hold these - and they run simple reactions to feed complex reactions since the margins on buying simple mats to react is so slim it's not worthwhile,
I am sure that R64s held by the big guys will get siphoned, but they are going to be emptied and popped on such a regular basis that it's goign to become worthless dropping them. At the same time the big guys are going to use these to grief everyone and anyone they can - simply as revenge for being made to do ****** sweeps of their moons to remove siphons. The best way to demonstrate the stupidy of a mechanic is to take it to the nth degree till the entire player base is screaming about how horrid it is. If it makes people angry and creates forum tears it will be worth the money spent - maybe the mechanic will be revisited then and made workable. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4988
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 11:10:00 -
[1411] - Quote
Dagda Morr wrote:You are completely detatched from reality - plenty of small entities run simple reactions in low and NPC space all the time. Just becasue you are incredibly poorly informed and desperate to join on a bandwagon does not make what you say true.
You are right that nobody cares about R8 moons - but you should have a look at what cadmium, caesium and chromium moons ect are worth if you mine them. Plenty of small and medium sized groups hold these - and they run simple reactions to feed complex reactions since the margins on buying simple mats to react is so slim it's not worthwhile,
I am sure that R64s held by the big guys will get siphoned, but they are going to be emptied and popped on such a regular basis that it's goign to become worthless dropping them. At the same time the big guys are going to use these to grief everyone and anyone they can - simply as revenge for being made to do ****** sweeps of their moons to remove siphons. The best way to demonstrate the stupidy of a mechanic is to take it to the nth degree till the entire player base is screaming about how horrid it is. If it makes people angry and creates forum tears it will be worth the money spent - maybe the mechanic will be revisited then and made workable. Sometimes, some must suffer so that goons can be inconvenienced.
Luckily, as forum warriors, it won't be you. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 13:20:00 -
[1412] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Dagda Morr wrote:You are completely detatched from reality - plenty of small entities run simple reactions in low and NPC space all the time. Just becasue you are incredibly poorly informed and desperate to join on a bandwagon does not make what you say true.
You are right that nobody cares about R8 moons - but you should have a look at what cadmium, caesium and chromium moons ect are worth if you mine them. Plenty of small and medium sized groups hold these - and they run simple reactions to feed complex reactions since the margins on buying simple mats to react is so slim it's not worthwhile,
I am sure that R64s held by the big guys will get siphoned, but they are going to be emptied and popped on such a regular basis that it's goign to become worthless dropping them. At the same time the big guys are going to use these to grief everyone and anyone they can - simply as revenge for being made to do ****** sweeps of their moons to remove siphons. The best way to demonstrate the stupidy of a mechanic is to take it to the nth degree till the entire player base is screaming about how horrid it is. If it makes people angry and creates forum tears it will be worth the money spent - maybe the mechanic will be revisited then and made workable. Sometimes, some must suffer so that goons can be inconvenienced. Luckily, as forum warriors, it won't be you. Funny really, as a goon forum rep your honestly not a very good troll are you. Closest you came to success was the "forum warriors" comment but as you have as many posts in this thread as those you are trying to ridicule you have become one. As you are alone here it should be forgiven; Everyone knows goons work best in groups of 1000 or more.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4992
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 13:41:00 -
[1413] - Quote
One might be surprised to see i'm refreshing this while mining here in my blue donut
soon i will be refreshing the next hot topic while doing some structure dropping There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
TimNeilson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
10
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 15:25:00 -
[1414] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Dagda Morr wrote:You are completely detatched from reality - plenty of small entities run simple reactions in low and NPC space all the time. Just becasue you are incredibly poorly informed and desperate to join on a bandwagon does not make what you say true.
You are right that nobody cares about R8 moons - but you should have a look at what cadmium, caesium and chromium moons ect are worth if you mine them. Plenty of small and medium sized groups hold these - and they run simple reactions to feed complex reactions since the margins on buying simple mats to react is so slim it's not worthwhile,
I am sure that R64s held by the big guys will get siphoned, but they are going to be emptied and popped on such a regular basis that it's goign to become worthless dropping them. At the same time the big guys are going to use these to grief everyone and anyone they can - simply as revenge for being made to do ****** sweeps of their moons to remove siphons. The best way to demonstrate the stupidy of a mechanic is to take it to the nth degree till the entire player base is screaming about how horrid it is. If it makes people angry and creates forum tears it will be worth the money spent - maybe the mechanic will be revisited then and made workable. Sometimes, some must suffer so that goons can be inconvenienced. Luckily, as forum warriors, it won't be you. Funny really, as a goon forum rep your honestly not a very good troll are you. Closest you came to success was the "forum warriors" comment but as you have as many posts in this thread as those you are trying to ridicule you have become one. As you are alone here it should be forgiven; Everyone knows goons work best in groups of 1000 or more.
Why would he waste his good posts here on eve-o when he could be posting them on gf.cahahahahahahahaha |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
456
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 18:45:00 -
[1415] - Quote
Honestly I wouldn't worry about your cadmium or caesium moons. Running the numbers as they currently are, it would take 2+ days of operation just for a single siphon to break even. No one's going to bother, at least not after the initial rush to try the new Rubicon features wears off.
Siphoning dyspro moons, on the other hand, becomes profitable after a matter of hours. And that's on a per siphon basis, you can make a pretty considerable bank from siphoning a few dyspro moons for just under a day. With a handful of siphons on the right moons, you could easily clear a few hundred mil a day, and that assumes regular loss of siphon units.
And if what the goons say is true about prices going up, well...
Simply put, low value lowsec moons won't be targeted, at least after the initial wave wears off because they won't be worth it. Dyspro, Prom, and Neo moon holders need to worry. Complex reactions can't be hit by siphons. For everyone else, no one will bother. |
Narffy
Dominus Imperium
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 22:36:00 -
[1416] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Honestly I wouldn't worry about your cadmium or caesium moons. Running the numbers as they currently are, it would take 2+ days of operation just for a single siphon to break even. No one's going to bother, at least not after the initial rush to try the new Rubicon features wears off. Siphoning dyspro moons, on the other hand, becomes profitable after a matter of hours. And that's on a per siphon basis, you can make a pretty considerable bank from siphoning a few dyspro moons for just under a day. With a handful of siphons on the right moons, you could easily clear a few hundred mil a day, and that assumes regular loss of siphon units. And if what the goons say is true about prices going up, well... Simply put, low value lowsec moons won't be targeted, at least after the initial wave wears off because they won't be worth it. Dyspro, Prom, and Neo moon holders need to worry. Complex reactions can't be hit by siphons. For everyone else, no one will bother.
You're assuming people will be using siphons to make isk. They're really going to be used for griefing and the easiest targets by a large margin are smaller lowsec corps. I can easily afford to buy thousands of siphons just to screw with people. However, I probably don't need to bother beings Goons have trillions of isk to spend on assaulting lowsec.
For lowsec corps to run the complex reactions, simple reactions must first be run by someone and you can't run an entire chain at a single POS. |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
55
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 02:57:00 -
[1417] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
There is no need for a limit, since the player deploying has the empty these things.
Quote:It has a capacity of 1200 m-¦. If it is full, it stops stealing.
As for deceiving the API? Firstly I recall that wormhole jumps were removed from data extract. Otherwise just check jumps in the hole and know that someone is cloaked within. So defeats the purpose intended of no local. So would having honesty of API reporting a deficit of moongoo. The alternative would be for the API cease reporting moongoo production. There is a precedent after all. |
My Little Pyongyang
State War Academy Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 06:50:00 -
[1418] - Quote
This is wonderful. Goons crying about siphons, PL crying about instant on grid dics, this expansion is going to be beautiful. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
297
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 07:28:00 -
[1419] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Ah yes, the mythological small-entity moon miner. Much like the fabled unicorn of olde. It's simply heartwarming to see all of the larger moon mining entities rise up to the defense of the little man.
And of course, these small-entity moon miners control the most valuable of low sec moons and would naturally be the first targets of so-called griefers, unlike all of the big entities which content themselves with the more worthless moons. You lot are truly magnanimous.
I ran a plat moon out of arida for 6 months. ie I am the small moon miner you speak of. I serviced the tower weekly with a blockade runner, and I lost the tower when I unsubbed for work reasons for a while.
I can tell you right now, that i know exactly how much a blockade runner full of plat is, and as it stands right now, there is absolutely no reason I'd attempt to siphon plat.
If was going to siphon anything, it would be a once a month serviced by jump bridge R64 that everyone nearly forgot about, because its just not worth flying a BR for less.
Also I'll note with a great deal of amusement that one of the changes wrought by nerfing moon income, is that I am now a renter who lives in null and who considers how to recruit more people to null. Even more amusingly there is a plat moon in the system that I rent, that the CFC hasn't towered, so I could actually ninja the moon altogether, yet I haven't bothered. |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
863
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 07:41:00 -
[1420] - Quote
The mechanic is broken....there will be more siphons than ships. We will spam this units just for ***** and giggles...everywhere.
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
|
|
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
462
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 07:58:00 -
[1421] - Quote
Hell, the goons can siphon every other moon in the game as long as I can siphon me their dyspro, prom, and neo.
Goons: "We'll steal all your dirt!" Everyone Else: "K mate, we'll just help ourselves to some of your gold."
|
Anomaly One
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 08:07:00 -
[1422] - Quote
Eugene Kerner wrote:The mechanic is broken....there will be more siphons than ships. We will spam this units just for ***** and giggles...everywhere.
I'm hoping every low sec entity does the same |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
643
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 08:41:00 -
[1423] - Quote
Sweet this sounds nice :) got 8 covert ops alts, busy times ahead |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 09:58:00 -
[1424] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Sweet this sounds nice :) got 8 covert ops alts, busy times ahead May sound nice when you say it fast but did you add up how much it will cost you to deploy syphon's with those 8 alts?? 10 a piece (to stand a chance of it paying) is an 800 mil outlay.. Better hope no-one steals from your syphon's or worse blows them up for jollies.
|
Gothikia
Regeneration
121
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 10:00:00 -
[1425] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Sparkus Volundar wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Sorry for probably unneeded question about potential bug: This reporting will account for the 20% loss? Just asking because "what is syphoned" sounds potentially different to what was mined/made. Thanks, Sparks Yes it will account for the lossed items as well. The idea is that you wouldn't notice that you were being siphoned from the API.
Whoever came up with this needs to be slapped. This is quite possibly one of the most ******** things in the history of retardation without a microgram of exaggeration.
This game feature isn't something that will affect me... but it's ******* ******** nonetheless. Get your **** together CCP, jesus ******* christ. <3 Gothie |
Gothikia
Regeneration
121
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 10:00:00 -
[1426] - Quote
I hate these stupid filters on the forums too btw.... <3 Gothie |
Trii Seo
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
221
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 10:29:00 -
[1427] - Quote
Wow, so many people still believe this will actually be an awesome tool to hurt the Big Bad Goon. So, so much "grrr goon" in this thread.
The truth is, to profit from this moongoo you need to also haul it out of the area. For one, show up at the siphon you've dropped with an industrial. Blockade runners won't be able to fit a lot into them, and anything larger may have slight issues leaving the space. Of course, there are ways to shuffle the goo out quickly but they'd be mostly utilized by organized entities. Entities such as the Big Bad Goon.
Even if you leave the goods and destroy the siphon, you will just contribute to the price increase - something those entities will benefit from. All in all it's a great idea, a wonderfully trolly idea but needs some work in implementation. Else we'll all drown in tears.
(For starters, I'd look into the mis-reporting API. If you want to generate conflict, you want people knowing about their POS being drained if they're paying enough attention to send a defense gang.) Is it Hotdrop O'Clock yet?
Covert pilots unite! Safer working conditions, less accidental limb loss due to unfortunate Cyno accidents! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=258986 |
ImYourMom
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 10:38:00 -
[1428] - Quote
what a good idea in theory! in practice forget it. Firstly you have got to get to the POS WITHOUT being insta killed, warp scrammed yada yada, then secondly the POS will take out the siphon unit in seconds once the pos gunner alt logs in. Seriously what is the point of such a stupid.
So either you will be dead before you even start to deploy it, or/and the siphon unit will be killed not long after. So again this wont affect any large alliances not even smaller corps/alliances.
Anything worth stealing and because of the changes recently (wont be worth stealing because of the paltry amounts you can take). Again another very high risk for the tiniest reward. Also the main r64 moons will be gunned up to the max.
You going to make nothing at all, all it could be (if you actually managed not to die) is a little flea in someones ear. But again log in ALT pos gunner, problem solved.
can you imagine romping up to a fully gunned out POS in your industrial to pick up the mins = poof bye bye ship.
Seriously ccp do you even think about this stuff or just make up ideas in your head and implement them without a single iota of real thought.
complete waste of time |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1305
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 15:01:00 -
[1429] - Quote
ImYourMom wrote:what a good idea in theory! in practice forget it. Firstly you have got to get to the POS WITHOUT being insta killed, warp scrammed yada yada, then secondly the POS will take out the siphon unit in seconds once the pos gunner alt logs in. Seriously what is the point of such a stupid.
So either you will be dead before you even start to deploy it, or/and the siphon unit will be killed not long after. So again this wont affect any large alliances not even smaller corps/alliances.
Anything worth stealing and because of the changes recently (wont be worth stealing because of the paltry amounts you can take). Again another very high risk for the tiniest reward. Also the main r64 moons will be gunned up to the max.
You going to make nothing at all, all it could be (if you actually managed not to die) is a little flea in someones ear. But again log in ALT pos gunner, problem solved.
can you imagine romping up to a fully gunned out POS in your industrial to pick up the mins = poof bye bye ship.
Seriously ccp do you even think about this stuff or just make up ideas in your head and implement them without a single iota of real thought.
complete waste of time Jon Snow? Nyan |
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3629
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 16:01:00 -
[1430] - Quote
Narffy wrote: You're assuming people will be using siphons to make isk. They're really going to be used for griefing and the easiest targets by a large margin are smaller lowsec corps. I can easily afford to buy thousands of siphons just to screw with people. However, I probably don't need to bother beings Goons have trillions of isk to spend on assaulting lowsec.
For lowsec corps to run the complex reactions, simple reactions must first be run by someone and you can't run an entire chain at a single POS.
If you think spending hundreds of hours planting your thousands of siphons and giving billions worth of free killmails to the pos owners is "griefing", then yes
Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |
|
irish84
Eclipse Navy. WHY so Seri0Us
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 17:00:00 -
[1431] - Quote
if someone is able to fly by and pick these things up and they only take up 20m3, but can hold 1200m3, are people going to be able to pick them up while full and will it still be 20m3? |
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
225
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 17:09:00 -
[1432] - Quote
irish84 wrote:if someone is able to fly by and pick these things up and they only take up 20m3, but can hold 1200m3, are people going to be able to pick them up while full and will it still be 20m3?
You can't pick them up. Once they are deployed, they stay deployed until destroyed. He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
|
irish84
Eclipse Navy. WHY so Seri0Us
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 17:35:00 -
[1433] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:irish84 wrote:if someone is able to fly by and pick these things up and they only take up 20m3, but can hold 1200m3, are people going to be able to pick them up while full and will it still be 20m3? You can't pick them up. Once they are deployed, they stay deployed until destroyed.
Oh right yea its still early for me and I just didn't read that part right. For some reason I saw you can pick them up, but now since i went back I see where I read it wrong. Thanks |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 17:37:00 -
[1434] - Quote
I think something obvious is missed here. You do not have to do complicated logistics with black ops and such. The obvious way is to get one alt into the x000 alliances (or any blued entity) and deploy siphons with an unrelated char. Then exchange the loot via GSC cans or in space.
This module will enable the grunts to steal from the alliance leadership. And most likely this will happen to some extend. Personally i think this is great. To prevent this, you cannot just invite anybody to your alliance or blue everyone, you actually have to have a trust relationship to some extend. Which in turn means smaller alliances and less blues. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6201
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 18:07:00 -
[1435] - Quote
I can't wait until the whine thread about these after Rubicon comes out "CCP goons are siphoning everyone's lowsec moongoo and nobody can make any isk anymore!" EVE Online - A Rigged Game |
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
225
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 18:47:00 -
[1436] - Quote
I think another factor we need to consider on this issue has not really been revealed yet. That is the deployable storage unit (though, I may have missed the dev posts on it - please link it if they have given some more info on that).. That, in conjuction with the Siphon unit will really determine how successful the intent of the siphon will be.
Here's how I see original basic intent:
Individual A wants to slurp some moon goo and reactions from Group B. Individual A then sneaks into the region, finds a nearby system that is relatively dead, and drops a storage unit*. Individual A quickly drops a Siphon unit or two on all the target POSes - Max possibility of ten POSes. Every 24 hours, assuming Group B isn't paying attention, Individual A goes out and scoops the moon goo/reactions using a Blockade Runner. Moon Goon/Reactions slurped by Individual A gets dumped in his Deployable Storage Unit for later pick up. Individual A, after deployable storage unit is full, either a.) Brings in a Jump Freighter, or b.) tries to sneak it out in a Deep Space Transport.
Now, this is the only potential direct "for profit" use I see, and it doesn't take into account the realities of where the locations of the moons are in relation to each other. Yes, you could go back and forth to a station with a transport but that is pretty situational, and isn't generally very practical, especially since there is the option to keep harvesting so long as no one interrupts the siphon, either by stealing the goo/reactions or by destroying the siphon. So, I think it would be nice to hear some more specifics about the storage unit, like:
- How much will the storage unit hold and will there be difference sizes (i.e. small, medium, large, etc.). - How long do they stay out in space. - Cost of Storage Units - Pre-deploy size of Storage Units - Signature size (i.e. how difficult will it be to scan them down?)
It could be that some or all of these questions have been already answered, and feel free to tell me what they are. However, I think the ultimiate viability of the Siphon units a being a tool for anyone other than a major alliance hinges on the answers to those questions.
(*The Same thing can be achieved by a group, however, at this time since the Deployable Storage unit is only accessable by the person who deployed, then a POS with appropriate mods will have to be set up.)
He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
|
Orakkus
Wraithguard. Dirt Nap Squad.
226
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 18:51:00 -
[1437] - Quote
Trii Seo wrote:(For starters, I'd look into the mis-reporting API. If you want to generate conflict, you want people knowing about their POS being drained if they're paying enough attention to send a defense gang.)
That could be just as easily achieved by shooting the POS modules outside. Once Siphons are introduced, every corp/alliance will be sending a fleet to these anyways, just on the off-chance that there is a Siphon at the POS.
He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
|
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4411
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 20:02:00 -
[1438] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't wait until the whine thread about these after Rubicon comes out "CCP goons are siphoning everyone's lowsec moongoo and nobody can make any isk anymore!" But according to you and your people, all the money is made in high sec off those evil mission runners. What changed all of the sudden where low sec was the source for all the income in the game? . |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1245
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 20:14:00 -
[1439] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't wait until the whine thread about these after Rubicon comes out "CCP goons are siphoning everyone's lowsec moongoo and nobody can make any isk anymore!" Arent all those low sec r64 owned by PL anyway |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5026
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 23:20:00 -
[1440] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't wait until the whine thread about these after Rubicon comes out "CCP goons are siphoning everyone's lowsec moongoo and nobody can make any isk anymore!" Arent all those low sec r64 owned by PL anyway That should be the case, yes.
Nice and accessible for your siphoning pleasure. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
45
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 00:11:00 -
[1441] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't wait until the whine thread about these after Rubicon comes out "CCP goons are siphoning everyone's lowsec moongoo and nobody can make any isk anymore!" But according to you and your people, all the money is made in high sec off those evil mission runners. What changed all of the sudden where low sec was the source for all the income in the game?
Actually most goons and other sensible nullsec dwellers complain about the risk/reward balance of hi-sec, especially incursion runners and L4 mission runners.
These siphons seem to increase this inbalance. But, hey you are a one of these "grr goons, moons are passive income" meme spewers who is so skilled at Eve that he outsources living in his space, so what do you care or know? It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4413
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 00:37:00 -
[1442] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't wait until the whine thread about these after Rubicon comes out "CCP goons are siphoning everyone's lowsec moongoo and nobody can make any isk anymore!" But according to you and your people, all the money is made in high sec off those evil mission runners. What changed all of the sudden where low sec was the source for all the income in the game? Actually most goons and other sensible nullsec dwellers complain about the risk/reward balance of hi-sec, especially incursion runners and L4 mission runners. These siphons seem to increase this inbalance. But, hey you are a one of these "grr goons, moons are passive income" meme spewers who is so skilled at Eve that he outsources living in his space, so what do you care or know? But earlier you all were going on how the Siphon is the perfect griefer tool for Goons and CFC. Now suddenly it is the perfect tool for hi sec players.
Did CCP make an update on the Siphon I missed? Please give us a link to this announcement. Thanks in advance. GÖÑ . |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1566
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 00:50:00 -
[1443] - Quote
No, you're just being painfully obtuse and disingenuous, as usual. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
475
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 01:09:00 -
[1444] - Quote
I must have also missed how moon mining is low secs main income source and how any loss of it will kill a low sec alliance.... |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
643
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 02:11:00 -
[1445] - Quote
I think if you read between the lines of this expansion CCP are saying there needs to be some risk and consequence to having vast empires controlled by relatively few players.
The modules, especially this one are easily defensible against by small alliances that have many members in a small area. The ones that will hurt will be the big alliances that have relatively few to no members in the areas these are deployed.
CFC can go and spam these all over New Eden but if they spam them against the little guys I think they'll find those little guys quick to remove them while if we spam them against CFC given all its space, they'll be much slower to find and remove them.
I think this is great. |
NinjaTurtle
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
46
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 02:26:00 -
[1446] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I think if you read between the lines of this expansion CCP are saying there needs to be some risk and consequence to having vast empires controlled by relatively few players.
The modules, especially this one are easily defensible against by small alliances that have many members in a small area. The ones that will hurt will be the big alliances that have relatively few to no members in the areas these are deployed.
CFC can go and spam these all over New Eden but if they spam them against the little guys I think they'll find those little guys quick to remove them while if we spam them against CFC given all its space, they'll be much slower to find and remove them.
I think this is great.
Yeah basically this. There's really no reason that large alliances should be able to hold the most valuable moons 3-4-5 or more regions away with only the threat of overwhelming retaliation keeping them from being screwed with.
The stats of the griefing mechanic just need to be a little bit better than what's been presented here. Co-host and editor of Declarations of War Podcast http://declarationsofwar.com Twitter- @schertt |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4414
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 03:56:00 -
[1447] - Quote
I will say I am not sold on the 10% destroyed in the process of siphoning. I was wondering what are everyone's thoughts if nothing was destroyed in the process? . |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4414
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 03:57:00 -
[1448] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I think if you read between the lines of this expansion CCP are saying there needs to be some risk and consequence to having vast empires controlled by relatively few players.
The modules, especially this one are easily defensible against by small alliances that have many members in a small area. The ones that will hurt will be the big alliances that have relatively few to no members in the areas these are deployed.
CFC can go and spam these all over New Eden but if they spam them against the little guys I think they'll find those little guys quick to remove them while if we spam them against CFC given all its space, they'll be much slower to find and remove them.
I think this is great. Shhhhh. Don't tarnish this thread with facts. . |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5039
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 07:31:00 -
[1449] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't wait until the whine thread about these after Rubicon comes out "CCP goons are siphoning everyone's lowsec moongoo and nobody can make any isk anymore!" But according to you and your people, all the money is made in high sec off those evil mission runners. What changed all of the sudden where low sec was the source for all the income in the game? Actually most goons and other sensible nullsec dwellers complain about the risk/reward balance of hi-sec, especially incursion runners and L4 mission runners. These siphons seem to increase this inbalance. But, hey you are a one of these "grr goons, moons are passive income" meme spewers who is so skilled at Eve that he outsources living in his space, so what do you care or know? it's all for the sake of progodlegend's dream
an eve where the goons' 0.0 dream is over There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1586
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 07:40:00 -
[1450] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I think if you read between the lines of this expansion CCP are saying there needs to be some risk and consequence to having vast empires controlled by relatively few players. If by "risk and consequence" you mean having a trial alt per POS and clocking in on them once an hour, then sure. |
|
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1245
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 09:01:00 -
[1451] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:I will say I am not sold on the 10% destroyed in the process of siphoning. I was wondering what are everyone's thoughts if nothing was destroyed in the process? Why not |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 11:00:00 -
[1452] - Quote
NinjaTurtle wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I think if you read between the lines of this expansion CCP are saying there needs to be some risk and consequence to having vast empires controlled by relatively few players.
The modules, especially this one are easily defensible against by small alliances that have many members in a small area. The ones that will hurt will be the big alliances that have relatively few to no members in the areas these are deployed.
CFC can go and spam these all over New Eden but if they spam them against the little guys I think they'll find those little guys quick to remove them while if we spam them against CFC given all its space, they'll be much slower to find and remove them.
I think this is great. Yeah basically this. There's really no reason that large alliances should be able to hold the most valuable moons 3-4-5 or more regions away with only the threat of overwhelming retaliation keeping them from being screwed with. The stats of the griefing mechanic just need to be a little bit better than what's been presented here. Curious, what do you mean by "griefing mechanic"? If you mean simply syphoning and disposing of goo then I hope you don't fly anything other than T1 ships. The implications of simple griefing are pretty vast and I for 1 don't want to be paying 200 or 300 mil for my T2 cruisers.
Do you not think there would be retaliation if people were to start placing syphon's on R64's in nul ?? And I wouldn't say 26,000+ players is a small number to be spread over 3, 4 or 5 regions.
If you really think retaliation only a THREAT go take their moons, if it is really only a threat you should not meet with resistance. Don't be upset when a fleet of 200 or 300 turn up to defend the moon will you. If you have spent any time in SOV nul at all, you know the threat is very real. A fleet of 20 can become 100 and an alliance of 2500 can become a coalition 30,000 with 1 ping.
** I too believe large entities should not be able to control the majority of resources but reality is, that's the way it works. In eve as in RL the big guy gets to keep the ball, until someone bigger comes along to take it from him. In the case of moon mining it is going to take a lot more than syphon's to change this balance of power. All syphon's will succeed in doing is pushing prices up for everything related to moon goo. (exactly as CCP wants it)
|
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
403
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 17:10:00 -
[1453] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:In eve as in RL the big guy gets to keep the ball, until someone bigger comes along to take it from him.
You could be smaller and smarter but in reality the smarter people are either also quite big or are content with their status in game. They certainly aren't whining about how it isn't fair they're small. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 06:45:00 -
[1454] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:In eve as in RL the big guy gets to keep the ball, until someone bigger comes along to take it from him.
You could be smaller and smarter but in reality the smarter people are either also quite big or are content with their status in game. They certainly aren't whining about how it isn't fair they're small. Do you honestly think the few "small" alliances with R64's make up around 80% of holdings? I think you will find they possibly make up 20% with a big push towards being over generous with % and have a lot more to lose and are at much higher risk of losing it than the mega corps who make up the other 80% of R64 holdings. And to be fair, how do you know they aren't "whining " as you put it, about the way syphon's are being implemented?
Saying you need to be big to be considered smart or content with their place in the game is not entirely correct.
Anybody who has moon mining operations and says they are 'content' right now is either a fool or have not bothered to look at the implications of syphon's. I include the big moon goo holders in this because right now every moon is at risk , although some (smaller groups) more than others. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
651
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 11:03:00 -
[1455] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:In eve as in RL the big guy gets to keep the ball, until someone bigger comes along to take it from him.
You could be smaller and smarter but in reality the smarter people are either also quite big or are content with their status in game. They certainly aren't whining about how it isn't fair they're small. Current day alliances are built on the whines of the past or do you think the mechanics have always been the way they are now. I'm not whining, I'm winning. |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 11:23:00 -
[1456] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't wait until the whine thread about these after Rubicon comes out "CCP goons are siphoning everyone's lowsec moongoo and nobody can make any isk anymore!" But according to you and your people, all the money is made in high sec off those evil mission runners. What changed all of the sudden where low sec was the source for all the income in the game? Actually most goons and other sensible nullsec dwellers complain about the risk/reward balance of hi-sec, especially incursion runners and L4 mission runners. These siphons seem to increase this inbalance. But, hey you are a one of these "grr goons, moons are passive income" meme spewers who is so skilled at Eve that he outsources living in his space, so what do you care or know? But earlier you all were going on how the Siphon is the perfect griefer tool for Goons and CFC. Now suddenly it is the perfect tool for hi sec players. Did CCP make an update on the Siphon I missed? Please give us a link to this announcement. Thanks in advance. GÖÑ
I am sorry when did I say hisec pubbies would use this? When did I link mission and incursion runners with griefing nulsec moon mining? Oh, yeah I didn't. I did repeat that goons will use this to grief people because it is OP, which has been their repeated concern with these devices and mine. But seeing as the cognitive dissonance is strong in you i doubt you will read or respond to this. I wont hold you up, your leet caravan of courage is off to fight Solar Fleet, don't worry the renters will keep the home fires burning in your AFK passive income empire. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1348
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 13:22:00 -
[1457] - Quote
Some good changes to siphons on SISI now. Effectively a price increase for those that want to use them in large amounts to destroy or greatly inhibit supply.
They are bigger now though still tiny. However, after seeing the requirements we are quite pleased.
Some dev deserves a big sloppy kiss.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1590
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 14:01:00 -
[1458] - Quote
:devswarm: Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Celia Therone
University of Caille Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 15:59:00 -
[1459] - Quote
Malcanis Law.
In order to defend against siphons I create an overview that shows only siphons on the cyno alt that I must have at the pos in order to service it. Any time anything appears in that overview it is a siphon and I destroy it with two clicks using a POS gun.
It's breathtakingly tedious game play, possibly the worst I have ever seen in a game, especially as you have to do it 23.5/7.
However it's also so amazingly simple and lacking in skill, or really any thought whatsoever, that it is the ideal candidate for botting.
You think that the empires that were renowned for their legions of bot ratters and moon goo duping will not be able to figure this out? They can afford to dedicate an alt to a pos (train another alt on the account and periodically sell the character so the net cost is pretty much zero.) Isbox so one guy can afk preside simultaneously over a dozen or more pos per computer with no effort whatsoever.
It's two button clicks and completely passive watching of the overview. CCP apparently can't reliably detect mining or ratting bots operating actively all day every day, they're not going to find a bot that clicks twice only when someone drops a siphon maybe a couple of times/month after the initial rush.
So who will be hurt? Small groups, time zone limited groups, younger players, players that play by CCP's rules, players with real lives who don't want to be beholden 23.5/7. Those are the people that siphons will hurt because they don't cheat, they don't have armies of alts and they don't want to be online outside of their designated play time.
Seriously, someone on the CSM needs to make it their job to demand to know in what way a new feature is fun whenever they are told about one. Endlessly repeating this question might, just might, have resulted in more thought being given to the actual game play of things like PI, Captain's closet and POS siphons. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4417
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 23:27:00 -
[1460] - Quote
Confirming that all cyno alts have anchoring level 5 trained. . |
|
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4417
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 02:03:00 -
[1461] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Some good changes to siphons on SISI now. Effectively a price increase for those that want to use them in large amounts to destroy or greatly inhibit supply.
They are bigger now though still tiny. However, after seeing the requirements we are quite pleased.
Some dev deserves a big sloppy kiss.
What was the materials needed before the increase?
And who is 'we'? . |
Opaque Intent
Setenta Corp AL3XAND3R.
25
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 04:30:00 -
[1462] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote: And who is 'we'?
Oh, I think you know who 'we' is. |
Celia Therone
University of Caille Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 06:26:00 -
[1463] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Confirming that all cyno alts have anchoring level 5 trained. Confirming that the cost of Anchoring (75,000 isk) and Starbase Defense Management (1,000,000 isk) are within the budget of entities that do moon mining. And day old noobs that have complete d the tutorial missions.
Also confirming the existence of regular supply runs to mining/reaction POS that can carry skill books with them. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
508
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 06:59:00 -
[1464] - Quote
Meh, pushing the price and volume up, you may as well not bother releasing it at all. Consider that all it takes to kill the thing is a single character taking control of a single pos gun. Its just not worth it to use these if you push the break even point back significantly.
Welp, my compliments to the goons and their CSM advocate(s). This one's dead on arrival. |
Sir Prometeus
Shimai of New Eden
21
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 12:03:00 -
[1465] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Meh, pushing the price and volume up, you may as well not bother releasing it at all. Consider that all it takes to kill the thing is a single character taking control of a single pos gun. Its just not worth it to use these if you push the break even point back significantly.
Welp, my compliments to the goons and their CSM advocate(s). This one's dead on arrival.
The rest of us still want to know about these "changes" |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
615
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 14:43:00 -
[1466] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Meh, pushing the price and volume up, you may as well not bother releasing it at all. Consider that all it takes to kill the thing is a single character taking control of a single pos gun. Its just not worth it to use these if you push the break even point back significantly.
Welp, my compliments to the goons and their CSM advocate(s). This one's dead on arrival.
I'm neither a goon nor CSM advocate. I'm the "mythological" small POS owner you referred to a few posts back. If your aim is to weaken the power bloc alliances you were not going to accomplish this by obliterating the smaller competition, which is essentially what this grief tool would have done. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1594
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 15:15:00 -
[1467] - Quote
The whole idea was dead on arrival when it wasn't about fleet combat and timers. All this "nerf" does is change its pointlessness from malignant to benign (or less malignant really).
If you had to roll up, defang the pos, anchor and guard the siphon(s) while they onlined, and then come back the next day to haul away all the target PoS mod's moon, reaction, or alchemy goo, then you'd have a feature that generates actual fun conflict and content.
This structure spam and grind bullshit was dead before it started, all you can do with this framework is make it more or less awful. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4419
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 15:36:00 -
[1468] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:The whole idea was dead on arrival when it wasn't about fleet combat and timers. All this "nerf" does is change its pointlessness from malignant to benign (or less malignant really).
If you had to roll up, defang the pos, anchor and guard the siphon(s) while they onlined, and then come back the next day to haul away all the target PoS mod's moon, reaction, or alchemy goo, then you'd have a feature that generates actual fun conflict and content.
This structure spam and grind bullshit was dead before it started, all you can do with this framework is make it more or less awful. You are lying. . |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1595
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 15:52:00 -
[1469] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:You are lying.
Well I believe every word I said. I may be mistaken, but that's an important distinction.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1357
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 16:24:00 -
[1470] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:This one's dead on arrival.
I'm glad we could come to an agreement.
|
|
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 02:41:00 -
[1471] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:The whole idea was dead on arrival when it wasn't about fleet combat and timers. All this "nerf" does is change its pointlessness from malignant to benign (or less malignant really).
If you had to roll up, defang the pos, anchor and guard the siphon(s) while they onlined, and then come back the next day to haul away all the target PoS mod's moon, reaction, or alchemy goo, then you'd have a feature that generates actual fun conflict and content.
This structure spam and grind bullshit was dead before it started, all you can do with this framework is make it more or less awful.
I like this idea. A way to encourage interaction. Fascinating to see who dislikes. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
57
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 04:38:00 -
[1472] - Quote
So the goons have pointed out that a cheap and disposable option could have been used against an expensive mining operation as a grief tool when the player is inattentive? The dev response is to immediately make the disposable option not cheap.
Based on this goon logic, destroyers against exhumers should also require some re-balance? |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
668
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 08:08:00 -
[1473] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:So the goons have pointed out that a cheap and disposable option could have been used against an expensive mining operation as a grief tool when the player is inattentive? The dev response is to immediately make the disposable option not cheap.
Based on this goon logic, destroyers against exhumers should also require some re-balance? Lmao. Yeah wtf happened to "cost is not a balancing factor". Friggin hypocrites. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4419
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 08:23:00 -
[1474] - Quote
How little did I realize this entire argument against this siphon unit was nothing more than a Stereogram.
I see the picture inside the picture now...
Findings to be revealed soon. . |
Athena Maldoran
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2446
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 11:34:00 -
[1475] - Quote
The idea behind the siphon is generally theoretically good idea, but in practise this module will not function as intended. CCP knows people hate the current gameplay in aquiering moongoo. Now they implement an module that makes it possible to greif people already doing a gameplay they dont like. This will end up with only hurting the smaller entities that does moonmining, and **** off the larger entites that does moon mining. In other words, ccp is making gamebreaking gameplay emerge, instead of fixing their legazy issues and giving the players what they want. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4419
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 16:23:00 -
[1476] - Quote
Athena Maldoran wrote: The idea behind the siphon is generally theoretically good idea, but in practise this module will not function as intended. CCP knows people hate the current gameplay in aquiering moongoo. Now they implement an module that makes it possible to greif people already doing a gameplay they dont like. This will end up with only hurting the smaller entities that does moonmining, and **** off the larger entites that does moon mining. In other words, ccp is making gamebreaking gameplay emerge, instead of fixing their legazy issues and giving the players what they want. Nope. |
Athena Maldoran
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2450
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 18:19:00 -
[1477] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Athena Maldoran wrote: The idea behind the siphon is generally theoretically good idea, but in practise this module will not function as intended. CCP knows people hate the current gameplay in aquiering moongoo. Now they implement an module that makes it possible to greif people already doing a gameplay they dont like. This will end up with only hurting the smaller entities that does moonmining, and **** off the larger entites that does moon mining. In other words, ccp is making gamebreaking gameplay emerge, instead of fixing their legazy issues and giving the players what they want. Nope.
You sir, with that short answer, shows the rest of us what kind of a blatant idiot you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
669
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 22:08:00 -
[1478] - Quote
Athena Maldoran wrote: The idea behind the siphon is generally theoretically good idea, but in practise this module will not function as intended. CCP knows people hate the current gameplay in aquiering moongoo. Now they implement an module that makes it possible to greif people already doing a gameplay they dont like. This will end up with only hurting the smaller entities that does moonmining, and **** off the larger entites that does moon mining. In other words, ccp is making gamebreaking gameplay emerge, instead of fixing their legazy issues and giving the players what they want. Goon alt or minion playing the philanthropic card? You guys care so much about the little guy, so sweet. |
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
68
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 22:35:00 -
[1479] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Athena Maldoran wrote: The idea behind the siphon is generally theoretically good idea, but in practise this module will not function as intended. CCP knows people hate the current gameplay in aquiering moongoo. Now they implement an module that makes it possible to greif people already doing a gameplay they dont like. This will end up with only hurting the smaller entities that does moonmining, and **** off the larger entites that does moon mining. In other words, ccp is making gamebreaking gameplay emerge, instead of fixing their legazy issues and giving the players what they want. Goon alt or minion playing the philanthropic card? You guys care so much about the little guy, so sweet. everyone's a goon alt who disagrees with you right? those hundreds of small corps moon mining in low sec are all goon alts too arent they? or maybe we are all goon alts? oh the possibilities.... |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
670
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 23:06:00 -
[1480] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Athena Maldoran wrote: The idea behind the siphon is generally theoretically good idea, but in practise this module will not function as intended. CCP knows people hate the current gameplay in aquiering moongoo. Now they implement an module that makes it possible to greif people already doing a gameplay they dont like. This will end up with only hurting the smaller entities that does moonmining, and **** off the larger entites that does moon mining. In other words, ccp is making gamebreaking gameplay emerge, instead of fixing their legazy issues and giving the players what they want. Goon alt or minion playing the philanthropic card? You guys care so much about the little guy, so sweet. everyone's a goon alt who disagrees with you right? those hundreds of small corps moon mining in low sec are all goon alts too arent they? or maybe we are all goon alts? oh the possibilities.... Yes |
|
Celia Therone
University of Caille Gallente Federation
30
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 09:40:00 -
[1481] - Quote
How about making it so that the siphon had to be hacked (via the hacking mini-game) in order to switch off its POS gun cloaking ability and be vulnerable to POS guns, which would then shoot it automatically or manually? This would make it significantly harder to bot your defenses. It'd also make a bit more sense than POS guns can't hit it unless they're manned by a person.
I'd probably let people hack it from inside the POS shield because it's now an even worse chore for the POS defender. However allies of the POS defender who want to disable the siphon could potentially do it in a hacking ship if they didn't have a combat ship handy (and the POS had online guns of course.)
Also how about having the siphon drop a wreck that can be looted/salvaged for ~20% of it's build value on death? This would mean that POS's that weren't very profitable, which suffer asymmetrically from being siphoned, could potentially recover some of their losses.
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
670
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 10:10:00 -
[1482] - Quote
Celia Therone wrote:How about making it so that the siphon had to be hacked (via the hacking mini-game) in order to switch off its POS gun cloaking ability and be vulnerable to POS guns, which would then shoot it automatically or manually? This would make it significantly harder to bot your defenses. It'd also make a bit more sense than POS guns can't hit it unless they're manned by a person.
I'd probably let people hack it from inside the POS shield because it's now an even worse chore for the POS defender. However allies of the POS defender who want to disable the siphon could potentially do it in a hacking ship if they didn't have a combat ship handy (and the POS had online guns of course.)
Also how about having the siphon drop a wreck that can be looted/salvaged for ~20% of it's build value on death? This would mean that POS's that weren't very profitable, which suffer asymmetrically from being siphoned, could potentially recover some of their losses.
I think they should have ignored the whiny cries of the rich mega alliances and done what they said, try it out and adjust if necessary. This pre-nerf crap is getting old |
Athena Maldoran
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2454
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 11:45:00 -
[1483] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Omega Flames wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Athena Maldoran wrote: The idea behind the siphon is generally theoretically good idea, but in practise this module will not function as intended. CCP knows people hate the current gameplay in aquiering moongoo. Now they implement an module that makes it possible to greif people already doing a gameplay they dont like. This will end up with only hurting the smaller entities that does moonmining, and **** off the larger entites that does moon mining. In other words, ccp is making gamebreaking gameplay emerge, instead of fixing their legazy issues and giving the players what they want. Goon alt or minion playing the philanthropic card? You guys care so much about the little guy, so sweet. everyone's a goon alt who disagrees with you right? those hundreds of small corps moon mining in low sec are all goon alts too arent they? or maybe we are all goon alts? oh the possibilities.... Yes
I guess we smoked out a Marlona Sky alt here |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 12:16:00 -
[1484] - Quote
I'm curious as to what has been done to the API in the lead up to Rubicon.. Checking my reaction pos's I find, Sylramic Fibers -4,153.85 p/h (at the same time, the input of ceramic powder for this reaction is increasing by 253.65 p/h) Yet the pos producing Ceramic Powder -183.33 p/h Both Pos's have the correct amount in silos (no syphon's here yet LOL) But all my pos's are now giving incorrect API readings.
Is this what we can expect from now on?
|
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
69
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 12:52:00 -
[1485] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:I'm curious as to what has been done to the API in the lead up to Rubicon.. Checking my reaction pos's I find, Sylramic Fibers -4,153.85 p/h (at the same time, the input of ceramic powder for this reaction is increasing by 253.65 p/h) Yet the pos producing Ceramic Powder -183.33 p/h Both Pos's have the correct amount in silos (no syphon's here yet LOL) But all my pos's are now giving incorrect API readings.
Is this what we can expect from now on?
you sure your numbers are correct? mine are not showing any incorrect deviations for my pos's. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 00:24:00 -
[1486] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:I'm curious as to what has been done to the API in the lead up to Rubicon.. Checking my reaction pos's I find, Sylramic Fibers -4,153.85 p/h (at the same time, the input of ceramic powder for this reaction is increasing by 253.65 p/h) Yet the pos producing Ceramic Powder -183.33 p/h Both Pos's have the correct amount in silos (no syphon's here yet LOL) But all my pos's are now giving incorrect API readings.
Is this what we can expect from now on?
you sure your numbers are correct? mine are not showing any incorrect deviations for my pos's. I just checked again (10 hrs later), Sylramic Fibers -461.54p/h Ceramic Powder -15.38p/h This one I especially like, Unrefined Platinum Technite -2.38p/h
|
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
69
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 12:57:00 -
[1487] - Quote
could the change in daylight savings time have any affect on your formulas? (assuming your using time in any of your formulas) What are the actual quantities being reported in your api pull? |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 13:24:00 -
[1488] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:could the change in daylight savings time have any affect on your formulas? (assuming your using time in any of your formulas) What are the actual quantities being reported in your api pull? It is information straight from the api via eve reactor. It is now showing correct numbers so whether there was a problem with the API server for the period or whether it was CCP testing the new API manipulation due to commence later this month will probably remain unknown.
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Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
69
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 13:37:00 -
[1489] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Omega Flames wrote:could the change in daylight savings time have any affect on your formulas? (assuming your using time in any of your formulas) What are the actual quantities being reported in your api pull? It is information straight from the api via eve reactor. It is now showing correct numbers so whether there was a problem with the API server for the period or whether it was CCP testing the new API manipulation due to commence later this month will probably remain unknown. I'm going to have to go with either you or eve reactor screwed up and not ccp. First off ccp api doesn't do units/hour it just lists quantities, location, itemid, etc and second mine showed correct data for all my silos. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 10:08:00 -
[1490] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Omega Flames wrote:could the change in daylight savings time have any affect on your formulas? (assuming your using time in any of your formulas) What are the actual quantities being reported in your api pull? It is information straight from the api via eve reactor. It is now showing correct numbers so whether there was a problem with the API server for the period or whether it was CCP testing the new API manipulation due to commence later this month will probably remain unknown. I'm going to have to go with either you or eve reactor screwed up and not ccp. First off ccp api doesn't do units/hour it just lists quantities, location, itemid, etc and second mine showed correct data for all my silos. I don't know which program your running the API through and maybe the one I am using is smarter than the one you use. When I open the program, it updates with latest API data (refreshes every 6 hrs). I get silo reports in/out amounts, product names, quantities remaining, fuel levels, stront levels.
As the information is pulled directly from the CCP API server the only way eve reactor can screw up is if the API itself screws up.
Considering the API is to be manipulated after the update would it not also be possible and feasible for it to be done in a random way? If the API is altered the same way for every silo it makes manipulating it somewhat pointless as in a short time someone with the expertise could/would create a way to override it. If the manipulation is kept random it makes it that much more difficult to detect.
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Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
69
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 13:56:00 -
[1491] - Quote
Your post is so full of fail that it's a wonder how you are capable of managing a pos to begin with.
1. I learned how to read the asset api directly and using a spreadsheet wrote my own formulas for interpreting the data so I know exactly what is shown by the api and "units/hour" nor "in/out amounts" are in the api (in fact product names arent shown by the api either but rather type id's which correspond to a specific type of item). those numbers are from your program interpreting the api data and making logical mathematical conclusions.
2. since we've now established that "units/hour" nor "in/out amounts" are in fact not pulled directly from the api then eve reactor can and infact either your or it did screw up when you or it interpreted the data from the api. Either you or your program screwed up those logical mathematical conclusions, not ccp
3. learn...anything...about computers and program code and you'd know that adding a random element to something like the api is not only stupid but pointless. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 05:46:00 -
[1492] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:Your post is so full of fail that it's a wonder how you are capable of managing a pos to begin with.
3. learn...anything...about computers and program code and you'd know that adding a random element to something like the api is not only stupid but pointless. Interesting.. If it is in fact pointless, why is CCP planning on doing it? I mean yes you could say CCP is stupid; oh hang on you did. Could you explain why it is not only stupid but pointless? CCP API team might learn something from you.
I agree eve reactor is interpreting data and showing relevant data (as any good program does) but as all data used by the program is pulled from the API and up until recently the figures shown were correct. It might just be that something CCP is doing to the API is causing the odd readings??
If the information used by eve reactor (and other programs like it) is not correct then why is CCP bothering to manipulate the API once syphon's are released into the game?
Honestly I don't think you established anything, except your inability to see past your own nose, that your right and no-one else can be.
**As a matter of interest, what program do you use to read the asset api directly?
Quote: CCP Tuxford Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Hmm, seems the api does in fact track numbers in and out of a silo..
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Verdis deMosays
Aurea Litai Industries Defiance Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 19:38:00 -
[1493] - Quote
As a member of a small null alliance I love these changes. The siphons are an interesting idea and will be something I deploy on a regular basis with my Prowler. I think this will make for a lot more productive time gate camping too, since cloak halides will be in and out of null on a more regular basis to check on their little autonomous thieves.
Also the Goon response has been priceless. Here's my reaction to it. http://www.ghostofthefuture.com/images/Ani2/UnfathomableSadness.gif |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 08:19:00 -
[1494] - Quote
Verdis deMosays wrote:As a member of a small null alliance I love these changes. The siphons are an interesting idea and will be something I deploy on a regular basis with my Prowler. I think this will make for a lot more productive time gate camping too, since cloaky haulers will be in and out of null on a more regular basis to check on their little autonomous thieves. Also the Goon response has been priceless. Here's my reaction to it. http://www.ghostofthefuture.com/images/Ani2/UnfathomableSadness.gif
Seeing as goons message has consistently been "this is OP we will abuse it till it is nerfed and it will be the little guys that get screwed" I think you will find that goons = Cartman in that image. |
Verdis deMosays
Aurea Litai Industries Defiance Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 20:02:00 -
[1495] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Verdis deMosays wrote:As a member of a small null alliance I love these changes. The siphons are an interesting idea and will be something I deploy on a regular basis with my Prowler. I think this will make for a lot more productive time gate camping too, since cloaky haulers will be in and out of null on a more regular basis to check on their little autonomous thieves. Also the Goon response has been priceless. Here's my reaction to it. http://www.ghostofthefuture.com/images/Ani2/UnfathomableSadness.gif Seeing as goons message has consistently been "this is OP we will abuse it till it is nerfed and it will be the little guys that get screwed" I think you will find that goons = Cartman in that image.
Assuming you trust the opinion of the goonswarm, who have consistently shown themselves as an exploitive economic coalition. Honestly, if they are raising hell about how OP and unfair this is its a good sign to me that the existence of this item really worries them. The 74 pages of goon tears are pretty much proof of that. Assuming that CCP doesn't cave to the cries of the goons who control the majority of the moons worth anything I think the siphon will be a nice piratical way to break their hold on the T2 market. And before any goons or alts thereof start debating me on that, I'll just remind people of Hulkageddon and that time of GoonFun.
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Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
495
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 22:11:00 -
[1496] - Quote
Verdis deMosays wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Verdis deMosays wrote:As a member of a small null alliance I love these changes. The siphons are an interesting idea and will be something I deploy on a regular basis with my Prowler. I think this will make for a lot more productive time gate camping too, since cloaky haulers will be in and out of null on a more regular basis to check on their little autonomous thieves. Also the Goon response has been priceless. Here's my reaction to it. http://www.ghostofthefuture.com/images/Ani2/UnfathomableSadness.gif Seeing as goons message has consistently been "this is OP we will abuse it till it is nerfed and it will be the little guys that get screwed" I think you will find that goons = Cartman in that image. Assuming you trust the opinion of the goonswarm, who have consistently shown themselves as an exploitive economic coalition. Honestly, if they are raising hell about how OP and unfair this is its a good sign to me that the existence of this item really worries them. The 74 pages of goon tears are pretty much proof of that. Assuming that CCP doesn't cave to the cries of the goons who control the majority of the moons worth anything I think the siphon will be a nice piratical way to break their hold on the T2 market. And before any goons or alts thereof start debating me on that, I'll just remind people of Hulkageddon and that time of GoonFun. Do we exploit economic opportunities? YES
Is this thing OP and unfair? YES
Are we worried about Syphons? NO
Have we been crying bitter tears over this? HELL ******* NO! We are laughing our buts off over how these will screw the little guy over a barrel.
If anything these things will tighten our grip on the T2 market. The money is still going to the ones with the most and best moons ( us ), the largest stockpiles of moon goo ( still us ), and the largest manpower pool to implement the greatist griefing campaign in history ( oh hey us again ). You seem to confuse our tears of mirth, with those of rage. |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 00:22:00 -
[1497] - Quote
Verdis deMosays wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Verdis deMosays wrote:As a member of a small null alliance I love these changes. The siphons are an interesting idea and will be something I deploy on a regular basis with my Prowler. I think this will make for a lot more productive time gate camping too, since cloaky haulers will be in and out of null on a more regular basis to check on their little autonomous thieves. Also the Goon response has been priceless. Here's my reaction to it. http://www.ghostofthefuture.com/images/Ani2/UnfathomableSadness.gif Seeing as goons message has consistently been "this is OP we will abuse it till it is nerfed and it will be the little guys that get screwed" I think you will find that goons = Cartman in that image. Assuming you trust the opinion of the goonswarm, who have consistently shown themselves as an exploitive economic coalition. Honestly, if they are raising hell about how OP and unfair this is its a good sign to me that the existence of this item really worries them. The 74 pages of goon tears are pretty much proof of that. Assuming that CCP doesn't cave to the cries of the goons who control the majority of the moons worth anything I think the siphon will be a nice piratical way to break their hold on the T2 market. And before any goons or alts thereof start debating me on that, I'll just remind people of Hulkageddon and that time of GoonFun.
You seem to fail at reading and comorehending things. Failen Whalen above me has spelled it out for you, try reading his comment and comprehending it. |
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
69
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 08:44:00 -
[1498] - Quote
Verdis deMosays wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Verdis deMosays wrote:As a member of a small null alliance I love these changes. The siphons are an interesting idea and will be something I deploy on a regular basis with my Prowler. I think this will make for a lot more productive time gate camping too, since cloaky haulers will be in and out of null on a more regular basis to check on their little autonomous thieves. Also the Goon response has been priceless. Here's my reaction to it. http://www.ghostofthefuture.com/images/Ani2/UnfathomableSadness.gif Seeing as goons message has consistently been "this is OP we will abuse it till it is nerfed and it will be the little guys that get screwed" I think you will find that goons = Cartman in that image. Assuming you trust the opinion of the goonswarm, who have consistently shown themselves as an exploitive economic coalition. Honestly, if they are raising hell about how OP and unfair this is its a good sign to me that the existence of this item really worries them. The 74 pages of goon tears are pretty much proof of that. Assuming that CCP doesn't cave to the cries of the goons who control the majority of the moons worth anything I think the siphon will be a nice piratical way to break their hold on the T2 market. And before any goons or alts thereof start debating me on that, I'll just remind people of Hulkageddon and that time of GoonFun. who needs to trust goons? I don't trust them farther than i can throw an elephant, but I do trust the brain God gave me (since I actually use it unlike most of humanity) and the almost 2 decades of studying human behavior and almost as long studying economics. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how difficult the logistics of attacking any of the large well defended null sec alliance's pos with these siphons is vs attacking any of the small not nearly as well defended low sec entities with them.
Also by mentioning the hulkageddon you are literally making their point for them because the permageddon was the final catalyst to making ccp actually rebalance the exhumers so they were worth using again due to how easy they were to kill by suicide gankers. I'll give you 1 guess which side the goons were on during the permageddon. |
Anailee
Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 11:17:00 -
[1499] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Good afternoon capsuleers! CCP SoniClover is here with a new Dev Blog, to shed some light on the POS siphoning units that will be coming with EVE Online: Rubicon on November 19th. While the statistics and numbers are subject to change pending final balancing, please take a look at his new Dev Blog to read all about the moneymaking opportunities that will be coming with this new feature in Rubicon. Enjoy!
So people can profit from work they didnt do nor invest ISK into themselves in yet another way. Too bad you refuse to reward the hard working players who don't make a living by griefing and stealing from other players. Perhaps you could add some better mining ships so the more honorable players can make more money for a change.
CCP. You disappoint me. Again.
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marly cortez
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
30
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 14:42:00 -
[1500] - Quote
16 towers removed as not being worth the effort anymore. |
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
769
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 14:55:00 -
[1501] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:Verdis deMosays wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Verdis deMosays wrote:As a member of a small null alliance I love these changes. The siphons are an interesting idea and will be something I deploy on a regular basis with my Prowler. I think this will make for a lot more productive time gate camping too, since cloaky haulers will be in and out of null on a more regular basis to check on their little autonomous thieves. Also the Goon response has been priceless. Here's my reaction to it. http://www.ghostofthefuture.com/images/Ani2/UnfathomableSadness.gif Seeing as goons message has consistently been "this is OP we will abuse it till it is nerfed and it will be the little guys that get screwed" I think you will find that goons = Cartman in that image. Assuming you trust the opinion of the goonswarm, who have consistently shown themselves as an exploitive economic coalition. Honestly, if they are raising hell about how OP and unfair this is its a good sign to me that the existence of this item really worries them. The 74 pages of goon tears are pretty much proof of that. Assuming that CCP doesn't cave to the cries of the goons who control the majority of the moons worth anything I think the siphon will be a nice piratical way to break their hold on the T2 market. And before any goons or alts thereof start debating me on that, I'll just remind people of Hulkageddon and that time of GoonFun. who needs to trust goons? I don't trust them farther than i can throw an elephant, but I do trust the brain God gave me (since I actually use it unlike most of humanity) and the almost 2 decades of studying human behavior and almost as long studying economics. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how difficult the logistics of attacking any of the large well defended null sec alliance's pos with these siphons is vs attacking any of the small not nearly as well defended low sec entities with them. Also by mentioning the hulkageddon you are literally making their point for them because the permageddon was the final catalyst to making ccp actually rebalance the exhumers so they were worth using again due to how easy they were to kill by suicide gankers. I'll give you 1 guess which side the goons were on during the permageddon. If you have a low sec POS you'll be fine. Check it regularly, get your stuff back then shoot the siphon. This will mainly affect big alliances with many moons. The little guy will be fine. |
GodSentMe
Playing God Enterprises
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 18:06:00 -
[1502] - Quote
as far as getting in to null with a cloaked t3 it is not hard, but most people seem to forget about wormholes. On my alt i regularly visit large alliance sov space with out any problems. I know you cant pick where you will end up but it makes getting in very easy. Once in and away from the boarders most systems are empty. It also makes it a good staging point to blops in to another section of space. So don't think creative players with a small sense of coordination are not able to disrupt moon mining empires in deep null. it will just take a little more effort then hitting a lowsec corp. |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1361
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 18:34:00 -
[1503] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:If you have a low sec POS you'll be fine. Check it regularly, get your stuff back then shoot the siphon. This will mainly affect big alliances with many moons. The little guy will be fine.
I'm going to save this quote for later. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5459
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 18:44:00 -
[1504] - Quote
Verdis deMosays wrote: Assuming you trust the opinion of the goonswarm, who have consistently shown themselves as an exploitive economic coalition. Honestly, if they are raising hell about how OP and unfair this is its a good sign to me that the existence of this item really worries them. The 74 pages of goon tears are pretty much proof of that. Assuming that CCP doesn't cave to the cries of the goons who control the majority of the moons worth anything I think the siphon will be a nice piratical way to break their hold on the T2 market. And before any goons or alts thereof start debating me on that, I'll just remind people of Hulkageddon and that time of GoonFun.
we tell the unvarnished truth because you won't believe us and it makes it even more hilarious when we're completely right for exactly the reasons we said we'd be right while you're spluttering in outrage about how dare the goonies abuse siphons
"I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5135
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 01:17:00 -
[1505] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Verdis deMosays wrote: Assuming you trust the opinion of the goonswarm, who have consistently shown themselves as an exploitive economic coalition. Honestly, if they are raising hell about how OP and unfair this is its a good sign to me that the existence of this item really worries them. The 74 pages of goon tears are pretty much proof of that. Assuming that CCP doesn't cave to the cries of the goons who control the majority of the moons worth anything I think the siphon will be a nice piratical way to break their hold on the T2 market. And before any goons or alts thereof start debating me on that, I'll just remind people of Hulkageddon and that time of GoonFun.
we tell the unvarnished truth because you won't believe us and it makes it even more hilarious when we're completely right for exactly the reasons we said we'd be right while you're spluttering in outrage about how dare the goonies abuse siphon when ccp nerfs it for them it will again be their victory There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
47
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 11:21:00 -
[1506] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Omega Flames wrote:Verdis deMosays wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Verdis deMosays wrote:As a member of a small null alliance I love these changes. The siphons are an interesting idea and will be something I deploy on a regular basis with my Prowler. I think this will make for a lot more productive time gate camping too, since cloaky haulers will be in and out of null on a more regular basis to check on their little autonomous thieves. Also the Goon response has been priceless. Here's my reaction to it. http://www.ghostofthefuture.com/images/Ani2/UnfathomableSadness.gif Seeing as goons message has consistently been "this is OP we will abuse it till it is nerfed and it will be the little guys that get screwed" I think you will find that goons = Cartman in that image. Assuming you trust the opinion of the goonswarm, who have consistently shown themselves as an exploitive economic coalition. Honestly, if they are raising hell about how OP and unfair this is its a good sign to me that the existence of this item really worries them. The 74 pages of goon tears are pretty much proof of that. Assuming that CCP doesn't cave to the cries of the goons who control the majority of the moons worth anything I think the siphon will be a nice piratical way to break their hold on the T2 market. And before any goons or alts thereof start debating me on that, I'll just remind people of Hulkageddon and that time of GoonFun. who needs to trust goons? I don't trust them farther than i can throw an elephant, but I do trust the brain God gave me (since I actually use it unlike most of humanity) and the almost 2 decades of studying human behavior and almost as long studying economics. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how difficult the logistics of attacking any of the large well defended null sec alliance's pos with these siphons is vs attacking any of the small not nearly as well defended low sec entities with them. Also by mentioning the hulkageddon you are literally making their point for them because the permageddon was the final catalyst to making ccp actually rebalance the exhumers so they were worth using again due to how easy they were to kill by suicide gankers. I'll give you 1 guess which side the goons were on during the permageddon. If you have a low sec POS you'll be fine. Check it regularly, get your stuff back then shoot the siphon. This will mainly affect big alliances with many moons. The little guy will be fine.
Cause 10 - 20% destroyed moon goo is nothing, you will recover all of the goo unless anyone else empties it and big alliances don't have 23.5/7 coverage of their space. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
33
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 19:32:00 -
[1507] - Quote
Verdis deMosays wrote: Assuming you trust the opinion of the goonswarm, who have consistently shown themselves as an exploitive economic coalition. Honestly, if they are raising hell about how OP and unfair this is its a good sign to me that the existence of this item really worries them.
You're either pretty dense, pretty inattentive, entirely divorced from reality, or all of the above. Goonswarm DOES, in fact, have a tradition of economic exploitation...
...but I can't recall them ever being deceptive or misleading about that in any way. In fact, it's generally the EXACT opposite of deception. A pattern we've seen repeatedly has been as follows:
1. Goons call out a certain mechanic or gameplay aspect as being broken, going so far as to explicitly telegraph precisely how they will exploit the mechanic in its current form.
2. People with goldfish-memories and an anti-goon bias go, "HOOHOOHOO GOONS DON'T LIKE IT, MUST BE GOOD FOR ME!"
3. Goons exploit the ever-loving **** out of it to the detriment of the Goldfish, precisely as they said they would.
4. Goldfish throw a tantrum about how awful goons are, completely ignoring that the Goons were first in line to point out the problem.
5. CCP fixes it, Goldfish gloat about how unhappy Goons must be, now.
Frankly, the brilliant thing about the Goons is that there's a subclass of player that hates Goons so much that they will actively campaign against their own interests, so long as it allows them to contradict something a Goon said on the forum. |
Angus McRothimay
Ordo Aetemas Noctis
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 23:04:00 -
[1508] - Quote
Like many Eve players I like new toys.
Because it's a new toy I will buy a few of them and not worrying too much about their cost I will venture out to see it they are fun to play with - with the chance making money an added bonus.
Apparently the only thing I have to worry about is if there is anyone in the system with me - as they may be able to "man the guns" & kill the little sucker - but if no one is present then I'm-a-going-to steal your stuff
NOTE (1) If you have an unattended POS then my larceny may affect you
(2) if you have lots of them - the chance that it's your POS I'm stealing from will increase.
(3) If its fun I'm going to keep stealing your stuff even it I don't make any money |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
291
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 14:58:00 -
[1509] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: If you have a low sec POS you'll be fine. Check it regularly, get your stuff back then shoot the siphon. This will mainly affect big alliances with many moons. The little guy will be fine.
Yep I can see how 1 guy checking 5 towers 23/7 will definitely be more efficient than 10,000 guys checking 500 towers 23/7.
The big alliances are definitely getting the worst of this! |
Angus McRothimay
Ordo Aetemas Noctis
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:24:00 -
[1510] - Quote
xttz wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: If you have a low sec POS you'll be fine. Check it regularly, get your stuff back then shoot the siphon. This will mainly affect big alliances with many moons. The little guy will be fine.
Yep I can see how 1 guy checking 5 towers 23/7 will definitely be more efficient than 10,000 guys checking 500 towers 23/7. The big alliances are definitely getting the worst of this!
5/1 = 5 500/10,000 = .05
No, actually it is 100 times more efficient to check 500 towers with 10,000 guys.
|
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xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
296
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 15:55:00 -
[1511] - Quote
Angus McRothimay wrote:
5/1 = 5 500/10,000 = .05
No, actually it is 100 times more efficient to check 500 towers with 10,000 guys.
Really?!!? |
Angus McRothimay
Ordo Aetemas Noctis
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 16:17:00 -
[1512] - Quote
xttz wrote:Angus McRothimay wrote:
5/1 = 5 500/10,000 = .05
No, actually it is 100 times more efficient to check 500 towers with 10,000 guys.
Really?!!?
Yes really ..... Unless the original statement was sarcasm and you really think it will be "better" for the big corps -- in which case you should try to understand that sarcasm is harder to convey in written communication than verbally. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
793
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 11:34:00 -
[1513] - Quote
xttz wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: If you have a low sec POS you'll be fine. Check it regularly, get your stuff back then shoot the siphon. This will mainly affect big alliances with many moons. The little guy will be fine.
Yep I can see how 1 guy checking 5 towers 23/7 will definitely be more efficient than 10,000 guys checking 500 towers 23/7. The big alliances are definitely getting the worst of this! I think very few 1 man corps have 5 towers. And Goons will certainly not have 10000 people checking towers. What you are trying to do is fudge the reality with bogus math.
The reality is that the small corps will behave like the small shopkeeper. He works hard, keeps things spic and span because he relies solely on his one shop. Goons will behave like Wallmart employees.
The reality is the small guy has POS guns, checks his POS and will be fine. Goons, well let's say I spent a lot of time bookmarking GEWN towers over the last few weeks and they're spread right across CFC space, a lot are just large towers with no defensive weaponry at all full of silos and moon harvesting arrays. Ripe for the siphoning. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 15:14:00 -
[1514] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:xttz wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: If you have a low sec POS you'll be fine. Check it regularly, get your stuff back then shoot the siphon. This will mainly affect big alliances with many moons. The little guy will be fine.
Yep I can see how 1 guy checking 5 towers 23/7 will definitely be more efficient than 10,000 guys checking 500 towers 23/7. The big alliances are definitely getting the worst of this! I think very few 1 man corps have 5 towers. And Goons will certainly not have 10000 people checking towers. What you are trying to do is fudge the reality with bogus math. The reality is that the small corps will behave like the small shopkeeper. He works hard, keeps things spic and span because he relies solely on his one shop. Goons will behave like Wallmart employees. The reality is the small guy has POS guns, checks his POS and will be fine. Goons, well let's say I spent a lot of time bookmarking GEWN towers over the last few weeks and they're spread right across CFC space, a lot are just large towers with no defensive weaponry at all full of silos and moon harvesting arrays. Ripe for the siphoning. Good luck with that. Logistically, if your going to do it to try and make isk, your setting your self a huge time consuming task. If your doing it simply to try and grief them, lol. I'm glad it's your isk being wasted and not mine.
Goons certainly won't have 10,000 people checking pos's and why would they need to, 1 trial alt can monitor a pos quite well. Say GOONS / CFC does have 500 pos's, they are also around 40,000 strong so even if only 1 in 100 of those creates a pos alt to watch for syphon's, they will have more than enough to be able to watch over things. Then you have the roaming fleets and small gangs in their sov space, which is all connected via jump bridges, jump clones and intel channels.
I'm not saying don't do it, on the contrary, go for it and please post your results here in a few months time. I'd be really interested to hear how it goes.
NB; MANY small operators in moon mining have more than 5 towers as it is the only way to make running the cheaper reactions and unrefined reactions pay.
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5478
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:41:00 -
[1515] - Quote
Angus McRothimay wrote: Yes really ..... Unless the original statement was sarcasm and you really think it will be "better" for the big corps -- in which case you should try to understand that sarcasm is harder to convey in written communication than verbally.
you're right, there was no possible way to puzzle out that was sarcasm
shame on you xttz for being sarcastic in print without saying you were being sarcastic "I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
314
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 16:41:00 -
[1516] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The reality is that the small corps will behave like the small shopkeeper. He works hard, keeps things spic and span because he relies solely on his one shop. Goons will behave like Wallmart employees.
ITT I learn that small shopkeepers work 23/7, ever vigilant and alert. |
Angus McRothimay
Ordo Aetemas Noctis
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 17:29:00 -
[1517] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Angus McRothimay wrote: Yes really ..... Unless the original statement was sarcasm and you really think it will be "better" for the big corps -- in which case you should try to understand that sarcasm is harder to convey in written communication than verbally.
you're right, there was no possible way to puzzle out that was sarcasm shame on you xttz for being sarcastic in print without saying you were being sarcastic
Thanks for confirming the statement as sarcasm.
Personally I look forward to the syphon units, I can't wait to see all the low sec folks venturing into to null to suck moon goo, and in return all the null sec inhabitants descending on low to suck off the low sec dwellers - A veritable smorgasbord for all |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
466
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 22:29:00 -
[1518] - Quote
May siphons be deployed anywhere or only within 50Km of a POS? I don't care if they are not operational...
CCP Punkturis-á "I want to get in on the goodposter circle jerk!"
|
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 03:01:00 -
[1519] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:May siphons be deployed anywhere or only within 50Km of a POS? I don't care if they are not operational...
Hmmm, somewhat vague request here. Syphon's have a maximum operational range of 50K so putting 1 outside of this range will render it useless for anything more than target practice.
May I ask what the point of placing non operational syphon's might achieve.
You could place them as bait but then why not just place them within operating range and at least use it for syphoning while waiting for the rare moment you manage to catch an unsuspecting cloaky hauler stealing from it (well maybe not unsuspecting, if your in system while baiting your showing in local)
** I believe your question to be no more than an attempt at trolling (badly), if not I hope I was able to answer to your satisfaction. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
798
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 04:16:00 -
[1520] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:KIller Wabbit wrote:May siphons be deployed anywhere or only within 50Km of a POS? I don't care if they are not operational...
Hmmm, somewhat vague request here. Syphon's have a maximum operational range of 50K so putting 1 outside of this range will render it useless for anything more than target practice. May I ask what the point of placing non operational syphon's might achieve. You could place them as bait but then why not just place them within operating range and at least use it for syphoning while waiting for the rare moment you manage to catch an unsuspecting cloaky hauler stealing from it (well maybe not unsuspecting, if your in system while baiting your showing in local) ** I believe your question to be no more than an attempt at trolling (badly), if not I hope I was able to answer to your satisfaction. For baiting and popping those trial account alts? |
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Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 06:03:00 -
[1521] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:KIller Wabbit wrote:May siphons be deployed anywhere or only within 50Km of a POS? I don't care if they are not operational...
Hmmm, somewhat vague request here. Syphon's have a maximum operational range of 50K so putting 1 outside of this range will render it useless for anything more than target practice. May I ask what the point of placing non operational syphon's might achieve. You could place them as bait but then why not just place them within operating range and at least use it for syphoning while waiting for the rare moment you manage to catch an unsuspecting cloaky hauler stealing from it (well maybe not unsuspecting, if your in system while baiting your showing in local) ** I believe your question to be no more than an attempt at trolling (badly), if not I hope I was able to answer to your satisfaction. For baiting and popping those trial account alts? I doubt you will see unskilled trial alts leaving the pos they are monitoring but good luck with that.
You might get lucky (or very unlucky if your alone) and run into a fleet which a trial alt has called in to destroy the syphon. That is if they even bother as the syphon is harmless anyway, although both it and you will generate kill mails, so good chance they will show up.
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Celia Therone
University of Caille Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 06:44:00 -
[1522] - Quote
xttz wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
The reality is that the small corps will behave like the small shopkeeper. He works hard, keeps things spic and span because he relies solely on his one shop. Goons will behave like Wallmart employees.
ITT I learn that small shopkeepers work 23/7, ever vigilant and alert. My experience of running a small pos network (topped out at 4 large, with two of us doing maintenance) as a newer player was that only my main had the skills to move stuff around, the trading skills and rep to buy and sell at Jita with low taxes. I spent a huge amount of time running level 4 missions close to Jita so I could market trade to make the pos network profitable, then more time shipping stuff around.
All time I wasn't at the POS. The other guy had a job and a life so he wasn't camping the POS either.
The first time I rage quit to skill training online was due to those POS, although granted that was back when it took time to online every single damned silo.
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Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1860
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 09:43:00 -
[1523] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:May siphons be deployed anywhere or only within 50Km of a POS? I don't care if they are not operational...
On Sisi currently it won't let you deploy a siphon at all further than 50k or closer than 30k to a POS. |
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
136
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 11:20:00 -
[1524] - Quote
Vatek wrote:Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again.
Thats the idea actually.
No more Absentee POS owners |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
388
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 14:43:00 -
[1525] - Quote
Krystyn wrote:Vatek wrote:Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again. Thats the idea actually. No more Absentee POS owners
so let me get this right... POS owners now cannot participate in 99% of the game they pay monthly to play because they have to constantly be removing siphons off their POS's?
sounds like a balanced game mechanic that definitely wont pressure people to unsub. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 07:13:00 -
[1526] - Quote
Has anyone seen a syphon on a pos yet?? |
Vicisci
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 00:25:00 -
[1527] - Quote
Is there a way to know a siphon unit date and deployment time, for myself and other pilots that deploy it and want to send the information? |
ihcn
Life. Universe. Everything. Clockwork Pineapple
222
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 06:08:00 -
[1528] - Quote
I'm loving the people blubbering in this topic, keep it up guys, cant wait to steal your stuff |
NearNihil
Every time is Fuwa time
70
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 15:54:00 -
[1529] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:Krystyn wrote:Vatek wrote:Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again. Thats the idea actually. No more Absentee POS owners so let me get this right... POS owners now cannot participate in 99% of the game they pay monthly to play because they have to constantly be removing siphons off their POS's? sounds like a balanced game mechanic that definitely wont pressure people to unsub. Let me tell you about the lack of bubble immunity on Blockade Runners. And about the recently buffed dictors. And about how an entire region can be defended against this sort of thing with sufficient people.
But who am I to tell a CFC pilot one of many solutions to a problem? |
Omega Flames
Forever Winter The Kingdom of Heaven
74
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 05:07:00 -
[1530] - Quote
NearNihil wrote:GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:Krystyn wrote:Vatek wrote:Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.
Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again. Thats the idea actually. No more Absentee POS owners so let me get this right... POS owners now cannot participate in 99% of the game they pay monthly to play because they have to constantly be removing siphons off their POS's? sounds like a balanced game mechanic that definitely wont pressure people to unsub. Let me tell you about the lack of bubble immunity on Blockade Runners. And about the recently buffed dictors. And about how an entire region can be defended against this sort of thing with sufficient people. But who am I to tell a CFC pilot one of many solutions to a problem? ya all those bubbles in low sec on everyone's pos...oh wait there arent any oh and all the superb intel gathering in lowsec....oh wait there arent any ohhh dont forget the 30mm scan resolution on pos warp scramblers being able to lock anything smaller than a titan before it can warp off....oh wait they cant <Munnkeh> i'm gonna use that excuse if i ever kill someone. "look, if you keep meeting ppl, it's bound to happen eventually" http://i.imgur.com/76pQ9.jpg |
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Bellathor Fera
Das zweite Konglomerat The Initiative.
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 13:20:00 -
[1531] - Quote
Did read the first 10 Pages, after that it became just to much to read for me, so probably this has been suggested already or maybe not:
How it currently works: 1 Siphon steals 60/30 of the moon goo, meaning that 2 Siphons suck a POS dry entirely. So 2 Siphons make a load of workinghours for nothing. Setting up a POS and maintaining it is a hassel on it's own, you need a Rorqual/JF to be more time efficent, or you use haulers, but still a Large POS needs so much fuel that one hauler is not enough. With those Siphons people who have the POS do all the work, while the siphoning people have almost all the ISK benefits of the POS. Does CCP expect people who own several POSes to have Alts on every single one of them to check if there is a Siphon or not? Patrol the POSes every day?
POSes are set up to generate passive income or/and safe POSes for Supers and Carebears. They fuel the production of those pretty T2 ships and so on. Is the goal to make everything more expensive? Or for people just to say F**** it I'm not going to POS anything anymore?
As is maintaining 1 POS is a hassel already, maintaining several POS is even worse, but with those Siphons who can neglect you any sort of income it has become just an annoying task of double checking every POS every hour or so.
In general I think the Siphons are not a bad Idea, but the balance is just wrong! I don't mind people stealing a few m-¦ of MoonGoo from me if the put effort in it, but the current System is just spitting in the face of every single POS owner.
My Suggestion:
1. Change the fixed amount stolen to a percentage (that way the POS is not sucked dry completly) 2. The precentage should be somewhere around 20-30% at the max. (POS should still give some profit or at least cover the fuel costs) Setting up a POS and maintaining it is way more work than setting up a Siphon. The Proportion of Work to ISK is just wrong atm. 3. Limit the ammount of Siphons that can be anchored next to a POS 4. Give people a notification that there is a Siphon, not everyone can have X Accounts with Y Alts to check every POS every day
o7 Bellathor
PS: How does this actually work for Reactions? E.g. 1 Moon has to Materials that React. So this is how the POS works: Moon Harvester I-->Harvest Moon Material 1--> linked to Simple Reactor Array Moon Harvester II-->Harvest Moon Material 2--> linked to Simple Reactor Array Simple Reactor Array--> Producec Reaction--> Linked to Silo
So if the Siphon steals 60 of Moon Material 1 the reaction can not happen because it needs 100 of both, since the reactor is not a storageunit Moon Material 2 and the Rest of 1 are destroyed? or stored till the reactor has enough to make the reaction happen?
|
Huritt Otaktay
Sioux Tribe
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 01:15:00 -
[1532] - Quote
Well it seems is a private API tool that warns its user when someone is stealing from them.
It seems like a nice beta effort but the API warning tool that lets the POS owner know within an hour makes it useless to siphon since the siphon units cost so much to make & you cant scoop them back up. In fact, someone who can code should write a public notification tool so it makes siphons completely useless faster and it gets tweaked sooner.
Of coarse, being able to scoop them back up or make them dirt cheap to manufacture, would make it just fine. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
89
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 01:49:00 -
[1533] - Quote
Bellathor Fera wrote:Did read the first 10 Pages, after that it became just to much to read for me, so probably this has been suggested already or maybe not:
How it currently works: 1 Siphon steals 60/30 of the moon goo, meaning that 2 Siphons suck a POS dry entirely. So 2 Siphons make a load of workinghours for nothing. Setting up a POS and maintaining it is a hassel on it's own, you need a Rorqual/JF to be more time efficent, or you use haulers, but still a Large POS needs so much fuel that one hauler is not enough. With those Siphons people who have the POS do all the work, while the siphoning people have almost all the ISK benefits of the POS. Does CCP expect people who own several POSes to have Alts on every single one of them to check if there is a Siphon or not? Patrol the POSes every day?
POSes are set up to generate passive income or/and safe POSes for Supers and Carebears. They fuel the production of those pretty T2 ships and so on. Is the goal to make everything more expensive? Or for people just to say F**** it I'm not going to POS anything anymore?
As is maintaining 1 POS is a hassel already, maintaining several POS is even worse, but with those Siphons who can neglect you any sort of income it has become just an annoying task of double checking every POS every hour or so.
In general I think the Siphons are not a bad Idea, but the balance is just wrong! I don't mind people stealing a few m-¦ of MoonGoo from me if the put effort in it, but the current System is just spitting in the face of every single POS owner.
My Suggestion:
1. Change the fixed amount stolen to a percentage (that way the POS is not sucked dry completly) 2. The precentage should be somewhere around 20-30% at the max. (POS should still give some profit or at least cover the fuel costs) Setting up a POS and maintaining it is way more work than setting up a Siphon. The Proportion of Work to ISK is just wrong atm. 3. Limit the ammount of Siphons that can be anchored next to a POS 4. Give people a notification that there is a Siphon, not everyone can have X Accounts with Y Alts to check every POS every day
o7 Bellathor
PS: How does this actually work for Reactions? E.g. 1 Moon has to Materials that React. So this is how the POS works: Moon Harvester I-->Harvest Moon Material 1--> linked to Simple Reactor Array Moon Harvester II-->Harvest Moon Material 2--> linked to Simple Reactor Array Simple Reactor Array--> Producec Reaction--> Linked to Silo
So if the Siphon steals 60 of Moon Material 1 the reaction can not happen because it needs 100 of both, since the reactor is not a storageunit Moon Material 2 and the Rest of 1 are destroyed? or stored till the reactor has enough to make the reaction happen?
The syphon's only take from the end of the line, so in your example a syphon would be taking from "Linked to silo", the end of the line.
Quote:Huritt Otaktay Of coarse, being able to scoop them back up or make them dirt cheap to manufacture, would make it just fine. Risk VS reward. You put in the time to place and guard your syphon's (as a pos owner has to guard his pos). As CCP announced early in the thread the API will not give accurate information, any 3rd party application is going to get inaccurate information. It may be of some assistance to the pos owner but if the information from the API server is not correct you are not going to know if there is a syphon on your pos or not without logging in to check. |
killroy v2
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2013.12.14 18:45:00 -
[1534] - Quote
i don't know if this has been already asked or not but would it be balance able to make it so that the mobile siphon unit destroys all that it steals? |
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Environmental Protection Agency.
74
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 01:20:00 -
[1535] - Quote
Maybe I am mistaken here but it would seem that there is a severe problem wiht these modules:
1. To deploy something, or loot from something you can't be cloaked.
2. Were um.... talking about steeling from a POS.. So... Yea. Pos's shoot uncloaked ships. And small turrets which can fire out to are not going to miss you. Especially since this item needs to be deployed well within range of the guns.
3. Who is going to be dumb enough to steel from a pos, in an uncloaked ship?
Conclusion:
Unless I have missed something this module is pointless as you have to be close enough and uncloaked long enough for the Pos to shoot you and kill you. While no.. the POS wont shoot the Module, it will however target and shoot your ship. meaning you are not going to have enough time to loot and warp, or deploy and warp before you die.
Making this module.... well....
Useless. |
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Environmental Protection Agency.
74
|
Posted - 2013.12.27 01:32:00 -
[1536] - Quote
Bellathor Fera wrote:Did read the first 10 Pages, after that it became just to much to read for me, so probably this has been suggested already or maybe not:
How it currently works: 1 Siphon steals 60/30 of the moon goo, meaning that 2 Siphons suck a POS dry entirely. So 2 Siphons make a load of workinghours for nothing. Setting up a POS and maintaining it is a hassel on it's own, you need a Rorqual/JF to be more time efficent, or you use haulers, but still a Large POS needs so much fuel that one hauler is not enough. With those Siphons people who have the POS do all the work, while the siphoning people have almost all the ISK benefits of the POS. Does CCP expect people who own several POSes to have Alts on every single one of them to check if there is a Siphon or not? Patrol the POSes every day?
POSes are set up to generate passive income or/and safe POSes for Supers and Carebears. They fuel the production of those pretty T2 ships and so on. Is the goal to make everything more expensive? Or for people just to say F**** it I'm not going to POS anything anymore?
As is maintaining 1 POS is a hassel already, maintaining several POS is even worse, but with those Siphons who can neglect you any sort of income it has become just an annoying task of double checking every POS every hour or so.
In general I think the Siphons are not a bad Idea, but the balance is just wrong! I don't mind people stealing a few m-¦ of MoonGoo from me if the put effort in it, but the current System is just spitting in the face of every single POS owner.
My Suggestion:
1. Change the fixed amount stolen to a percentage (that way the POS is not sucked dry completly) 2. The precentage should be somewhere around 20-30% at the max. (POS should still give some profit or at least cover the fuel costs) Setting up a POS and maintaining it is way more work than setting up a Siphon. The Proportion of Work to ISK is just wrong atm. 3. Limit the ammount of Siphons that can be anchored next to a POS 4. Give people a notification that there is a Siphon, not everyone can have X Accounts with Y Alts to check every POS every day
o7 Bellathor
PS: How does this actually work for Reactions? E.g. 1 Moon has to Materials that React. So this is how the POS works: Moon Harvester I-->Harvest Moon Material 1--> linked to Simple Reactor Array Moon Harvester II-->Harvest Moon Material 2--> linked to Simple Reactor Array Simple Reactor Array--> Producec Reaction--> Linked to Silo
So if the Siphon steals 60 of Moon Material 1 the reaction can not happen because it needs 100 of both, since the reactor is not a storageunit Moon Material 2 and the Rest of 1 are destroyed? or stored till the reactor has enough to make the reaction happen?
Like I said above I don;t think your going to have to worry about any thefts considering a person will get popped by the small turrets before they can loot/deploy the thing. |
Nendail Smith
Lockheed Nighthawk
62
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 07:27:00 -
[1537] - Quote
Just re-subbed after an 18 month break. The best part of reading this topic was seeing the goons crying by page 7 |
Falkor1984
The Love Dragons
39
|
Posted - 2014.01.19 15:50:00 -
[1538] - Quote
I would be interested in getting feedback from CCP about the results of this "feature".
What I see and hear in game is that its a huge fail. People having to waste and alt sitting at a pos 23/7 to defend it from siphons; others complaining that siphoning isnt a viable source of income or grief.
So, any results to show that it IS a good thing after all, CCP? |
Nendail Smith
Lockheed Nighthawk
63
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 14:57:00 -
[1539] - Quote
Falkor1984 wrote:
What I see and hear in game is that its a huge fail. People having to waste and alt sitting at a pos 23/7 to defend it from siphons; others complaining that siphoning isnt a viable source of income or grief.
I'm thinking that an alt sitting at a pos 24/7 likely equals another sub. In the business world that is a success. |
Domitius Jaynara
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 08:27:00 -
[1540] - Quote
Did anyone else notice a significant drop in the amount of moon goo the original small mobile siphon deployables are producing since the patch? |
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