Except now your troops will be spending their normal ratting time dropping siphons or collecting from them... and since most of the time they won't be collecting anything worthwhile even from those few siphons that survive they will have to spend what would have been their "fun" time trying to rat their daily bread.

Look, I'm hugely in favor of the goons being able to exploit this to one degree or another... but as much as you are insisting otherwise I'm pretty sure you'll find more effective ways to do it than what you are proposing.

Contrary to all the whining from the poors about how moons are some hugely valuable and completely AFK wealth generator, they are in fact a wealth generator that would make a newbie in highsec laugh. A moon generates 100 units per hour. Right now, Dysprosium is the most valuable mineral in the game, at about 50k per unit. Go ahead, do the math on the hourly income, then calculate 60% of that. I'll wait. When you find that number, that's your take for dropping one.


Basically, I'm saying you ain't getting rich on these, kid.

Except now your troops will be spending their normal ratting time dropping siphons or collecting from them... and since most of the time they won't be collecting anything worthwhile even from those few siphons that survive they will have to spend what would have been their "fun" time trying to rat their daily bread.

Look, I'm hugely in favor of the goons being able to exploit this to one degree or another... but as much as you are insisting otherwise I'm pretty sure you'll find more effective ways to do it than what you are proposing.

He seems to think that renters would, overnight, turn themselves into a unified cohesive bloc with all the normal organization, drive and tools that a real alliance does, and declare themselves independent from us.


So no, he really doesn't have any idea how renters work.

Except alts.

Look at all these goonie tea

wait I made that joke already.

Nope

If you want the Siphon Unit to generate Fights you need a timer mechanic, so that the game dictates the time when the package full of juicy stuff can be picked up

a response fleet that just kills siphon units is nothing but smallscale structure grinding and incredibly boring.

a much better implementation of the siphon idea would be something like this:

1: deploy siphon unit
2: invulnerable siphon unit steals from tower for X hours. X can be influenced by the POS owner
3: after X hours, the siphon unit turns into a package full of juicy stuff after that time
4.1: only tower owner shows up - kills the unit, loots the package and gets his stuff (minus the waste) back
4.2: only siphon unit owner shows up - he loots the package and successfully stole from the tower owner
4.3: both partys show up - fight is possible
4.4: all the above + eventual third partys - multitude of possible scenarios

either way, the POS owner, the siphon owner and possible third parties all have strong incentives to actually show up.

I think you are being wilfully blind to how the bloc could be gamed against you because you are desperate to find an easy solution which will maintain the status quo. I do not think they could turn themselves into a "unified cohesive bloc" anymore than highsec entities could. Not by themselves.

Much as I have enjoyed the coalition level tears in this thread I am in no hurry to see goons in particular fall. I make most of my isk by predicting mid term market responses to your long term manipulations.

yes one moon is worth not that much but many are... and from what i understand you guys have 100's of moon mining poses. so it does add up. though not as much as it used to be.

1. from what i understand you will tsf most of the moon poses to renters and leaving the defence in thier hands but increasing thier rent to offset. (a win win in your eyes)

2. I personally plan on syphoning your renters poses as i am making an assumption not all of them will protect thier poses. something goons said are fine with aslong as the bills are paid.

3. you guys stated that you will be setting up shyphon units in non cfc space to reduce output by 20%

4. you also said you have massive holding of said moon minerals and will be selling them for a healthy profit

5. i plan on slight margin trading that value from stolen pos mins thus taking advanatge of your plan and a healthy income.

6. personally i already have enough isk to sustain myself but will be more then happy to "chew the fat" and harass renters doing it. I mean renters can be babies and if they start loosing lots of isk they will want you guys to come and protect them... towhich you guys admit are reliant on renter income to continue your reinbursement policy. its going to be interesting how long the goon/renter dynamic lasts for before goons rage and purge said renters. Lather rinse repeat anyone?

7. if ccp just removed the 20% loss of units from the shyphon mechanic your plans would be eliminated.

No seriously by you own ******** logic, wars and burn Jita couldn't ever happen.

Ok I'll spell it out of the mentally deficient.

Renters cannot rebel. If they did, they would lose station access. Renter alliance executor corps are not some sort of democratic publord senate, they are a tyrannic council of main alliance alts. Renters have very few capital ships. They do not work with other renter corps. Even if there WAS a mass rebellion, after every death they would have to go to the nearest NPC station to reship. This is not very different from fighting a regular nullsec war, except the enemies are bad and tiny.

He seems to think that renters would, overnight, turn themselves into a unified cohesive bloc with all the normal organization, drive and tools that a real alliance does, and declare themselves independent from us.


So no, he really doesn't have any idea how renters work.

You realize, of course, that at 100 units per hour production, arguing for a percentage adjustment is basically no different from saying "I think it should be X value instead of Y."

Because percent.


per centum - look it up.

man i hate timers... all they lead to is blob fights... please ccp do every thing you can to get rid of timers

So you don't disagree with anything we have said. Great, now let me help you make the next leap of logic.

You could just skip all that and buy the r64s in Jita now and profit a lot more!

Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear.

This will be mind numbingly boring and a time sink with little actual payoff for the pilots participating. The money doesn't matter all that much, but endless, pointless repetition doesn't generally sit well with most players outside of high sec.

It will prioritize raw material over processed material if both are available

For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:

Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.

POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.

Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.

Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields.

So far as I am understanding this issue :

1) It seems very unlikely that any use of the siphons, by itself, is going to cause a large rise in T2 ship cost. More likely, market speculation and direct manipulation of prices (e.g. by the goons) is going to cause fluctuation in the prices, if anything.

2) Why do people care if large entities like the goonsperg get massively richer off changes? Even the FW exploit didn't mess up the economy enough for the average player to notice/care much.

3) That said, the siphons seem like they could be most useful for very small and/or solo players living in fairly uninhabited space with a hostile moon mining POS in system. Pop a few siphons down overnight and collect a few dozen million isk before someone wastes some time coming out to the boonies to clean them up. That's not going to hurt most POS owners, but for the solo or small gang group it is a nice bit of isk, and it helps them.

Am I missing something?

yeah, because we are totally going to form 500 dudes to defend those few million ISK one could steal from our towers each day.

we are not going to shrug of those millions, especially not in the long run

BUT: we are also not be like :CTA: all the time. It's something that would generate buzz on corp or corp + close friends level

This is in every way a horrible idea. If you want there to be a window of non-detection, just delay the cache refresh, but to make the system designed to export data from in-game to out-of-game for the analysis through player tools not fulfil its purpose of providing in-game data, means you might as well not provide the data to begin with since you've just made it inherently useless.

This is a bad solution. Come up with a new one.

What do you think our small group of guys who suicide billions of isk a day ganking hi-sec freighters will do with this feature?

First, if you really want to see this used, don't put the owner's name on it. All it's going to do it promote usage through some un-associated alt in an NPC corp. Let's bypass that and just have it be anonymous. Guerrilla warfare only works when your opponent can't just use a locator agent to find you and hunt you down.

Second, I'm not sure why people are complaining about harassment now given the fact that the harasser's identity will be known. Just wardec them or hunt them down and kill them. That's your conflict driver. Goons getting tired of being griefed? Go kill the people taking your stuff.

That said, I think they're wrong about the T2 market. This is an effective way to break the cartel. People will be stealing valuable moon goo and then selling it on the market. Supply may go down, but the number of suppliers will go up as goons have their POSes bled of their goo. We'l see who ends up being right.

Go to forums and cry oceans before it's even released?