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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
264
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:24:00 -
[271] - Quote
Residual background radiation in the whole system, deteriorating over time.
Whenever a sleeper drone dies, their exploding core increases this background radiation - depending on the sleeper drone's size.
Ship sensors can measure that radiation's level during a system scan - cloak interferes with the radiation sensors, so this can only be done uncloaked.
Given useful parameters, this could give passing scouts an indication of recent sleeper activity. even when wrecks are already gone. Activity patterns could still be created, however, that would have to happen based on scout data instead of API analysis.
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G0hme
Hoover Inc. Pandemic Legion
202
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:26:00 -
[272] - Quote
Two step wrote: Capital Escalation
You were at the roundtable at FF13, weren't you?
Greyscale did state that capital escalation are horrible and not anywhere near where he wanted them to be. They were never intended to be run the way Wspace community runs them, so hopefully we will see that change eventually.
But indeed, C5/C6 should be a lot harder. With Kspace NPCs receiving Sleeper AI, they are too similar to offer Wspace any uniqueness at all.
Dreads are in my opinion, the cancer of wspace. Don't get me wrong I love capital warfare, but Dreads are an uncontrolled limitless force multiplier in a mass limited environment. Best shown in the resident strongholds of some of the larger Wspace entities. Carriers aswell, but way more limited as you eventually reach a threshold of where the amount of reps far exceeds what is required and is therefore not as powerful as the powerprojection of dreads.
Ofcource I realize it would never happen, but a rejuvenated Wspace would possibly need atleast Dreads removed completely, or rendered useless.
Shook Eelm's hand at Fanfest 2012 Shook CCP Soundwave's hand at Fanfest 2013
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
509
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:29:00 -
[273] - Quote
G0hme wrote:Two step wrote: Capital Escalation You were at the roundtable at FF13, weren't you? Greyscale did state that capital escalation are horrible and not anywhere near where he wanted them to be. They were never intended to be run the way Wspace community runs them, so hopefully we will see that change eventually. But indeed, C5/C6 should be a lot harder. With Kspace NPCs receiving Sleeper AI, they are too similar to offer Wspace any uniqueness at all. Dreads are in my opinion, the cancer of wspace. Don't get me wrong I love capital warfare, but Dreads are an uncontrolled limitless force multiplier in a mass limited environment. Best shown in the resident strongholds of some of the larger Wspace entities. Carriers aswell, but way more limited as you eventually reach a threshold of where the amount of reps far exceeds what is required and is therefore not as powerful as the powerprojection of dreads. Ofcource I realize it would never happen, but a rejuvenated Wspace would possibly need atleast Dreads removed completely, or rendered useless. Make sleepers immune to webs. There, I solved capital escalations. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
34
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:31:00 -
[274] - Quote
G0hme wrote:Greyscale did state that capital escalation are horrible and not anywhere near where he wanted them to be. They were never intended to be run the way Wspace community runs them, so hopefully we will see that change eventually.
Could you please elaborate on that? Or is this all that he said (obv I wasn't there ;)) |
Flash Phoenix
State War Academy Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:33:00 -
[275] - Quote
Cue Who wrote:The only thing this change does is make it easier to PvE. EVE has always maintained a balance between risk and reward, with WHs being the best ISK in the game, why are you decreasing risk? As it stands, it's too safe in W-Space already, now it's going to be even safer? As it stands, WHs are dead empty. There's a limited number of people who want to live in wormholes. Removing the ability to tell when a wormhole is active will make them even more empty.
So now your going to have to roam and RISK your ships to find those care bear PvE players :) |
John Caldr
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
38
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:34:00 -
[276] - Quote
Ab'del Abu wrote: Could you please elaborate on that? Or is this all that he said (obv I wasn't there ;))
Originally, capital escalations were added there to PREVENT capital ships usage, not to ENCOURAGE them |
Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands The Kadeshi
85
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:46:00 -
[277] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:This discussion was originally started here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4556962#post4556962That was a bit of a mistake on my part, I should have made a new thread for it. Sorry about that. Before we continue this discussion a few words from me. We do really care about the health of this game and we rely on you guys to give us feedback on changes we are looking at making. That is why both this forum post and the one linked above were made. To get feedback. You will notice that at no point have I given a specific release date because I really want to make sure we get the required feedback and act accordingly. The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API. The reason we're proposing this change: This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way. That goes directly against the design of the API and a core rule of it. We are aware that it has been like this for a while but need to make sure we are continuing to iterate on things, even old things, and bring them in line with expectations. That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well. This is the same reason why we also removed the jump data from the API for WH systems some time ago. So, lets continue this discussion here and see where this goes. :) Love you all and no matter how mad you might be at me I do appreciate all your feedback! :D
Is it possible to time-delay the data (by 30 days?) so that it's still useful for long-term research/analysis? Perhaps if a time-delay change is agreeable, jump data could be put back into the API as well?
The only idea I can think of for adding the data to the client would be to make a wormhole map to put it on (they already have set XYZ coordinates) and for pilots that have gone between one or more wormholes, link them in a way similar to how nullsec jump bridges are plotted on the map). The problem with this would be determining when these 'connections' should disappear: at downtime? when the holes collapse (too much information IMO)? or have them update between downtimes whenever a corporation or alliance member warps to said hole/bookmark and, if it's gone, remove it from said corporation/alliance wormhole map? |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
1111
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:49:00 -
[278] - Quote
I didn't even know any of this was possible. Guess I'm an 8 year old Eve noob. |
Haaranovor tenn
Trans Secunda Nulli Secunda
3
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:49:00 -
[279] - Quote
Andski wrote:Or you can ask CCP to address what makes w-space farming as safe as it is in future iterations rather than screaming "you can't remove this because Reasons"
Instant signatures is what makes it safe from players. Hopefully, the WH CSM rep is going to keep pestering CCP about fixing this as well as continuing the endless quest to fix POS mechanics.
As for "safe from NPC's", having 1 in 100 anoms spawn a capital or supercapital sleeper at random in the 4th wave would certainly add a bit of risk to WH farming. |
Daimian Mercer
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
33
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:55:00 -
[280] - Quote
Either remove ALL API end-points for system activity for every system in EVE or add a way to see this data for all systems in EVE client.
So this change in its current form ... I vote NO
Has someone created a poll yet? Creator of Tripwire https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=320030&find=unread |
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Jessica Duranin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
86
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:56:00 -
[281] - Quote
"oh noez! Getting easy risk free kills might suddenly require some effort?!?" WTF is wrong with you people? If you want free intel and risk free PvP go back to k-space. You don't belong to w-space! API powered logoff traps are the most carebearish sh't I've ever come across in w-space. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
510
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:58:00 -
[282] - Quote
Daimian Mercer wrote:Either remove ALL API end-points for system activity for every system in EVE or add a way to see this data for all systems in EVE client.
So this change in its current form ... I vote NO
Has someone created a poll yet? I guess you didn't read the thread, or even the dev responses.
All the map data exposed via the API for k-space systems is available in the client. Thus, it's eligible for the API. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Regan Rotineque
Arch Angels Assault Force The Kadeshi
316
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:00:00 -
[283] - Quote
so far reading this thread i have seen many arguments against this change....all are from the pvp folks who are using this data to hunt. I dont live in a WH and tbh the freak me out most of the time without the safety and security of local.
that being said i have gone in there to mine and search for ghost goodies and sleeper stuff. From the carebear perspective that api data helped me avoid busy systems, where chances of me traversing to high sec or get some gas mined were safer in those systems with little or no activity.
this change although making changes for the hunter .. affects the hunted as well. baaaaaaa (yes imma sheep)
now i wont know if the WH is inhabited or not before i plunge my hauler or space jalopey into a hole.
i suspect hunters will find more prey not less prey with these changes as i can assure you carebears dont go into holes that have inhabitants....its too skeery ....our lil hearts cant take the stress. |
G0hme
Hoover Inc. Pandemic Legion
202
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:04:00 -
[284] - Quote
Jessica Duranin wrote:"oh noez! Getting easy risk free kills might suddenly require some effort?!?" WTF is wrong with you people? If you want free intel and risk free PvP go back to k-space. You don't belong to w-space! API powered logoff traps are the most carebearish sh't I've ever come across in w-space.
QFT - In essence this is not about Siterunners getting to be more "safe", its the PVPers whining about not being able to get risk free kills with zero effort. Well said! Shook Eelm's hand at Fanfest 2012 Shook CCP Soundwave's hand at Fanfest 2013
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Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands The Kadeshi
85
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:06:00 -
[285] - Quote
Querns wrote:Daimian Mercer wrote:Either remove ALL API end-points for system activity for every system in EVE or add a way to see this data for all systems in EVE client.
So this change in its current form ... I vote NO
Has someone created a poll yet? I guess you didn't read the thread, or even the dev responses. All the map data exposed via the API for k-space systems is available in the client. Thus, it's eligible for the API.
^^ What he said. Also, by the lore, CONCORD gives bounties because of rat kills (in k-space) and has equipment in every k-space system to monitor these things. Wormhole rats don't have bounties (I assume because in unknown space, CONCORD has no ability to track such things----let's ignore how player bounty payouts work there though) so there is no basis in lore for why some vast computer network can track activity in unknown space.... Unless you're one of the Aura-worshippers. |
KO KODA
Rolled Out
0
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:07:00 -
[286] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.
Dumbest. Idea. Ever.
Removing this intel from the API directly removes intel that creates content.
Knowing the decision is likely made, and we are just being given lip service again, the illusion of being able to make a difference, I'm going to proceed as if the player base, regardless of the feedback you receive, will not make a difference in this matter.
Therefore, I would like to propose: Remove the intel from API. Make it available in game if you, your corporation, or your alliance have a connection to, or have travelled through that system any time in the last 24 hours. After that, the intel is no longer available.
Allow us a chance to see that a hole we have stumbled upon whilst inactive has become active, and allow us to create our own content from this .
Let's face it player created content = best content. |
Bohneik Itohn
Periphery Bound
59
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:07:00 -
[287] - Quote
I Wormhole.
I support this.
I'd even support obfuscating information about wormholes a few steps further, but my corpmates would probably evict me in the grand fashion of our good old friend Awox. |
Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands The Kadeshi
85
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:07:00 -
[288] - Quote
G0hme wrote:Jessica Duranin wrote:"oh noez! Getting easy risk free kills might suddenly require some effort?!?" WTF is wrong with you people? If you want free intel and risk free PvP go back to k-space. You don't belong to w-space! API powered logoff traps are the most carebearish sh't I've ever come across in w-space. QFT - In essence this is not about Siterunners getting to be more "safe", its the PVPers whining about not being able to get risk free kills with zero effort. Well said!
All I have to do is find a wormhole with activity and go in and kill them. Wait, am I in the right j-tag? Dammit, I forgot to scan.... |
Daimian Mercer
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
33
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:08:00 -
[289] - Quote
Querns wrote:Daimian Mercer wrote:Either remove ALL API end-points for system activity for every system in EVE or add a way to see this data for all systems in EVE client.
So this change in its current form ... I vote NO
Has someone created a poll yet? I guess you didn't read the thread, or even the dev responses. All the map data exposed via the API for k-space systems is available in the client. Thus, it's eligible for the API.
They want to remove w-space API system activity end-points (the rest of them) because it isn't available on EVE client. I was just stating they should remove it for all systems in EVE or add w-space API data to EVE client.... which is exactly what this thread is about.
I developed one of the most popular 3rd party tools that uses this API data so I am a bit of an "expert" on this API end-point. Creator of Tripwire https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=320030&find=unread |
Flash Phoenix
State War Academy Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:09:00 -
[290] - Quote
Servant's Lord wrote:CCPFoxFour,
Let me just clarify a few things as to why us WH pvp entities have a problem with this.
Most of the time, when we've had our static open for a while, we end up with quite a "chain" (basically a long line of WHs connected to each other) that is somewhat difficult to constantly monitor. While this nerf would make that an issue, that isn't our main problem.
The problem we have is, at present, carebearing in wspace is far too safe/secure. Right now, it's almost impossible to actually catch carebears by rolling into their system. The second you initiate warp to your side of the WH, a new anom pops up on their (slightly overpowered auto dscan tool). This alerts them that it's time to leave the site. All capitals immediately cancel whatever siege or triage they're involved in, and promptly refit to stabs to warp back to the "safety" of their POS.
Unless you happen to roll into someone who just started their siege cycle, it is INCREDIBLY difficult to land tackle. When we go to jump into a WH, we DON'T know if anyone is in there, we DON'T know if the residents are even running sites (should they exist), and we DON'T know where they are even if they do happen to be running sites.
I understand that you have a problem with us having real-time info, or that our internally developed tools are too powerful, and perhaps that does give us a slight advantage. The problem we have is that is our ONLY advantage at present.
The only truly consistent way of being able to kill competent WH bearing groups is through login trap mechanics - aka by taking the time and effort to actually move capitals and subcaps in, log them off, and then patiently wait for said groups to begin running sites. Currently, there is only one way to determine if a WH is worth seeding/active, and that is by checking the HISTORY of NPC kills through the API, aka seeing "oh these guys ran sites 18 hours ago" - this information allows us to make a somewhat informed decision on whether we want to seed the WH or not. Without this, the only way we can possibly seed a WH is by making a complete shot in the dark.
Removing the API npc kill data completely stacks the odds in favor of the WH NPCers - the npc kill data was our best, last, and ONLY advantage over someone PVEing in wspace.
From reading your posts, I assume the problem you have is us being able to passively gather intel on our chain while not having pilots in space doing the work - would you feel that adding in a delayed API would be a better choice?
Perhaps write it in so the API gives us the NPC kill history of a system - but it's delayed by 8-12 hours? This way, we cannot get "live" intel on systems easily, but we can see some trends of NPC kills in order to determine if there is even anyone active in that WH (online POS mean nothing in terms of activity).
Additionally, I would politely suggest/ask that you implement a modified version of the "delayed k162 spawn" suggestion discussed earlier. I feel that Wspace PVEers are given too much free instant intel through absolutely no effort of their own, making them far too safe. I don't want to punish someone willing to do active intel, so I would hope this wouldn't extend to probes, but delaying the built-in passive dscanner from picking up a new sig by at least a minute would go a long way towards leveling the playing field in terms of wspace pvp groups being able to catch PVEers.
One of your stated design goals of wspace is that lack of intel, or a local chat - right now, being able to see new sigs pop up instantly acts in exactly the same manner as local does for most nullsec PVE residents, and I would assume THIS goes against your stated design goals.
Please give some consideration to my thoughts, and try to keep things balanced for both sides, rather than handing all the advantages to one side.
Appreciated,
Servant's Lord, Disavowed
"From reading your posts, I assume the problem you have is us being able to passively gather intel on our chain while not having pilots in space doing the work -"
Yes, that right there, why use a program to avoid playing the game? smooth way to pass by the actual action of PLAYING the game, come on, get in a ship and play EVE, not some third party program.
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John Caldr
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
40
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:11:00 -
[291] - Quote
Jessica Duranin wrote: easy risk free kills
aaaand yet another nameless NPC alt talks about risk-free in WH PVP, when defending side can be ready, can have unlimited number of capitals/support beside already present 4+ capitals and support, and can refit to pvp (if not already in pvp fit) in few seconds.
risk free kills - its jita burn and other empire suicide gankings. |
KO KODA
Rolled Out
0
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:13:00 -
[292] - Quote
Daimian Mercer wrote: I developed one of the most popular 3rd party tools that uses this API data so I am a bit of an "expert" on this API end-point.
And you don't mind saying so yourself do you? I fully agree:
expert -ê+¢ksp+Ö-Ét/ noun 1. a drip under pressure.
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Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
982
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:17:00 -
[293] - Quote
Pasted on behalf of our Napoleon Aldent from the other thread that got locked.
Nullsec residents are provided with a static database dump containing absolute coordinates for systems in Eve which allows third party applications to calculate the light years between these systems. This is also information that is not readily available inside the client, and has also been used to develop third party applications which are critical to everyday life in null-sec (e.g. GARPA). By being able to calculate jump ranges in advance - outside of the client - cap pilots and their FCs are able to make judgement calls and react faster than they would normally be able to otherwise.
Fundamentally, this is no different than having NPC kills available via the API. It provides an indirect method of promoting content generation via our mappers the way tools like GARPA promote content in null-sec. It gives us intel on a system allowing us to make judgement calls before we fully scout a system. Neither light year calculations nor WH NPC kill activity are available inside the client, yet we have thriving third party apps that rely on both of these to facilitate the daily operations of their users.
If you're going to start holding yourselves to a standard in which third party applications cannot provide more information than what is available inside the client, then I challenge you to hold null-sec to the same standard you are asking wormhole space to be held to. What you are proposing sets our community back a significant amount without providing a rational justification for doing so, and I think you would see the same reaction from null-sec residents if they understood the potential implications of this "equality doctrine" you wish to enforce. Nothing to see here.... Move along
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John Caldr
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
40
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:19:00 -
[294] - Quote
Flash Phoenix wrote: Yes, that right there, why use a program to avoid playing the game? smooth way to pass by the actual action of PLAYING the game, come on, get in a ship and play EVE, not some third party program.
You did not read his post I guess. API info is delayed. Already. By about 2 hours+ - dotlan/static mapper, and by about an hour+ - direct api. Nobody using it instead of live scout to get real-time information. Its just a very, very important indicator for possible PVP. And we dont mind for it to be delayed more. We just need it to exist, this way or another. |
Bohneik Itohn
Periphery Bound
59
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:19:00 -
[295] - Quote
John Caldr wrote:Jessica Duranin wrote: easy risk free kills aaaand yet another nameless NPC alt talks about risk-free in WH PVP, when defending side can be ready, can have unlimited number of capitals/support beside already present 4+ capitals and support, and can refit to pvp (if not already in pvp fit) in few seconds. risk free kills - its jita burn and other empire suicide gankings.
You make it sound like you don't have a Buzzard, a watch list and Eve Who. Nor know how to use them.
Pretty risk free....
And also that Buzzard, the watch list, and Eve Who will still work after this change. Just as effectively as ever.
After we're done with this, let's talk about the Watch List and fixing that little bit of free intel. |
Longinius Spear
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
260
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:19:00 -
[296] - Quote
its sad that the counter to this change come from the established wormhole community. While the people for it, simply have ISK grinding alts seeded throughout w-space and who post with mains in null sec.
That is essentially the break down of the past 10 pages.
Not sure if CCP is even listening anymore but instead of following some 'vision' of wormhole space should be, they should support the established community who has put wormhole space on the map time and time again vs the people who simply consume it for ISK, bringing nothing.
Read more of my ramblings on my blog www.invadingyourhole.blogspot.com |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1535
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:19:00 -
[297] - Quote
No, because we have the capability to form a rational argument. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
511
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:20:00 -
[298] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pasted on behalf of our Napoleon Aldent from the other thread that got locked.
Nullsec residents are provided with a static database dump containing absolute coordinates for systems in Eve which allows third party applications to calculate the light years between these systems. This is also information that is not readily available inside the client, and has also been used to develop third party applications which are critical to everyday life in null-sec (e.g. GARPA). By being able to calculate jump ranges in advance - outside of the client - cap pilots and their FCs are able to make judgement calls and react faster than they would normally be able to otherwise.
Fundamentally, this is no different than having NPC kills available via the API. It provides an indirect method of promoting content generation via our mappers the way tools like GARPA promote content in null-sec. It gives us intel on a system allowing us to make judgement calls before we fully scout a system. Neither light year calculations nor WH NPC kill activity are available inside the client, yet we have thriving third party apps that rely on both of these to facilitate the daily operations of their users.
If you're going to start holding yourselves to a standard in which third party applications cannot provide more information than what is available inside the client, then I challenge you to hold null-sec to the same standard you are asking wormhole space to be held to. What you are proposing sets our community back a significant amount without providing a rational justification for doing so, and I think you would see the same reaction from null-sec residents if they understood the potential implications of this "equality doctrine" you wish to enforce. Unfortunately for you, the Static Data Export is not beholden to the same standards as the API. The API is the only one of these two that is required to only expose information that is also available in the client.
Also, even if they did acquiesce to your request, it's not like it would change anything -- the cat is already out of the bag, in the context of capital geography. It doesn't change very much. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1535
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:21:00 -
[299] - Quote
Longinius Spear wrote:its sad that the counter to this change come from the established wormhole community. While the people for it, simply have ISK grinding alts seeded throughout w-space and who post with mains in null sec.
That is essentially the break down of the past 10 pages.
Not sure if CCP is even listening anymore but instead of following some 'vision' of wormhole space should be, they should support the established community who has put wormhole space on the map time and time again vs the people who simply consume it for ISK, bringing nothing.
Ok I laughed. "on the map" lololol Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
983
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:26:00 -
[300] - Quote
Pasting my post from the other thread
Let me try and give you a constructive post with reasons.
1 - This data can be used by someone interested doing log off traps, as it can give us information as to when the residents are active and can plan accordingly
2 - Farmers (IE people who's sole purpose in WH space is to grind sites and nothing else) already have it too easy with instant sigs showing up which has already impacted our section of space greatly and already given a significant advantage to the defender for no work what so ever. I'd challenge you to say at least this is fair in the repect that everyone can see this information and that the defender can always change up the times they do their activities as to confuse the attacker.
3 - If this change does go through it will encourage even more farmers within the higher end holes who will give nothing back to the community and continue to farm with even greater security. This is something that we (the broader community of WH space) will not want.
4 - Seeing a blip of activity on one of the 20+ wormholes we have scanned and have connected to us promotes activity within our corporation. Meaning our members will actively look for the source of that activity which usually results in PvP Nothing to see here.... Move along
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