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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Chjna
the Goose Flock
7
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:22:00 -
[121] - Quote
Make one ore two empty signatures spawn/despawn in WH-space, so that you always have sigs popping in and out that you have to scan out. That will take away some of the safty, WH-space have to be more random, if not in this way, at least in some. |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
373
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:23:00 -
[122] - Quote
As casual Wormhole resident i think thats a realy good idea, WH should be dangerous as possible! Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3130
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:23:00 -
[123] - Quote
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:Better make this so in K-Space as well... that information is not publicly available in client either you know...
If you go through with it of course...
Press F10, select NPC kills from filters, view in client CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @regnerba
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Nooonnnnnoooo notme
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:24:00 -
[124] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:One of the biggest things we expect this to impact is log off traps. Most people I have talked to before posting this idea agreed that this data was most valuable for finding people to log off trap. People also agreed it was marginally helpful in finding live fights, but not very helpful in that way and most agreed they could easily find a way to adapt. whoever gave you this opinion is very accurate. trust them in the future. |
Alundil
Trader-Hoes
479
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:25:00 -
[125] - Quote
Andski wrote:This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible. Like local amirite? Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
114
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:25:00 -
[126] - Quote
heh.. yeah I did not think of that actually.. been in WHs too long :P
Seems reasonable change then to be honest, more activity should be involved in gathering information.
While we at it can we remove discovery scanner then so you actually have to launch probes and hit scan to detect a new signature. -Bl+¦d
http://bloodytravels.blogspot.com/ -á-- My travels through space. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10670
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:26:00 -
[127] - Quote
Alundil wrote:Andski wrote:This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible. Like local amirite?
not remotely germane to this discussion Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Alundil
Trader-Hoes
480
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:29:00 -
[128] - Quote
Ahost Gceo wrote:Do it, for the love of all that is Bob.
Removing this information will actually cause people who want to find pew to get off their asses and do some regular scouting, which will actually create more confrontation simply because there are people flying about looking for each other.
It's not going to revolutionize wh combat dynamics but it is an improvement. Literally having no idea how that data is used.
The kill data is meaningless if you are not already out and flying around and looking for things to find and kill. Knowing that kills happened in a system is useless unless you've already mapped a route to it.
So no, this doesn't change the need to scout with regard to jumping into literally dozens of systems looking for things. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Agonising Ecstacy
State War Academy Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:30:00 -
[129] - Quote
Necharo Rackham wrote:Agonising Ecstacy wrote: Thats because it benefits the incumbents - those that live in wormholes have an advantage over those that don't
I don't think incumbents mean what you think it does. It benefits the w-space dweller over the casual day tripper - for sure - but this is true of every other part of space also. If you are a new *resident* of w-space, then both siggy and marbin's eve w-space are free to use (and you can even host the latter yourself).
Yeah - I intentionally said incumbents - because I mean more than just 'residents'. It benefits the people that 'own' the system - the people that are the landlords. The people that want to do the ganking. Perhaps incumbents isn't quite the right word, but it was an intentional statement. New *residents* wouldn't immediately spend time developing tools that use the API to make use of this data in the same way that the other, very well established wormhole dwellers might. Day trippers may not even be aware that the information is available through the API. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
500
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:31:00 -
[130] - Quote
Alundil wrote:Ahost Gceo wrote:Do it, for the love of all that is Bob.
Removing this information will actually cause people who want to find pew to get off their asses and do some regular scouting, which will actually create more confrontation simply because there are people flying about looking for each other.
It's not going to revolutionize wh combat dynamics but it is an improvement. Literally having no idea how that data is used. The kill data is meaningless if you are not already out and flying around and looking for things to find and kill. Knowing that kills happened in a system is useless unless you've already mapped a route to it. So no, this doesn't change the need to scout with regard to jumping into literally dozens of systems looking for things. Sure, but it does remove the need to actually be in the system to observe behavior and make a manual determination of whether the hole should be kept or just rolled. All that needs to be done, today, is to check the system against NPCs killed over time, determine when the time zone of activity is, and log off until then. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Alundil
Trader-Hoes
480
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:32:00 -
[131] - Quote
Andski wrote:Alundil wrote:Andski wrote:This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible. Like local amirite? not remotely germane to this discussion Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies.
So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Napoleon Aldent
Rolled Out
6
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:33:00 -
[132] - Quote
Andski wrote:Alundil wrote:Andski wrote:This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible. Like local amirite? not remotely germane to this discussion
Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan. |
Cosmic Scanner
Temnava Legion No Holes Barred
64
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:34:00 -
[133] - Quote
In principle i would like the removal of npc kill stats. I think people should need to work for kills, however as stated it would also make w-space a farmers paradise, which is no good. Where is the risk vs reward? That said i also don't like the way blood union "farms farmers" with such ease.
If removing npc kills, we need something to increase the risk to farmers. I believe that either delayed signature appearance, or making sig appearance back to the way it was before, where sigs didn't automatically appear in your scan window would help. However that is not a solution to removing npc kill stats, if removing that, we need something else to keep the risk to farmers.
W-Space is after all a form of 0.0 space, so it should be the highest risk and highest reward. Cosmic Scanner / muu lufragga |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
500
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:34:00 -
[134] - Quote
Alundil wrote:Andski wrote:Alundil wrote:Andski wrote:This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible. Like local amirite? not remotely germane to this discussion Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies. So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane. You're comparing apples and oranges, is what he's saying. Nullsec game mechanics aren't really relevant to a discussion about wormhole mechanics. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10671
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:36:00 -
[135] - Quote
Alundil wrote:Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies.
So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane.
Of course you'll try to derail this thread by talking about something that does not exist in w-space in a thread about a change to w-space mechanics. If you want to talk about local, go start another thread about local, or post in one of the millions of existing threads about local. Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10672
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:41:00 -
[136] - Quote
Napoleon Aldent wrote:Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan.
Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored. Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Angsty Teenager
Broski North Black Legion.
340
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:42:00 -
[137] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:This discussion was originally started here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4556962#post4556962That was a bit of a mistake on my part, I should have made a new thread for it. Sorry about that. Before we continue this discussion a few words from me. We do really care about the health of this game and we rely on you guys to give us feedback on changes we are looking at making. That is why both this forum post and the one linked above were made. To get feedback. You will notice that at no point have I given a specific release date because I really want to make sure we get the required feedback and act accordingly. The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API. The reason we're proposing this change: This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way. That goes directly against the design of the API and a core rule of it. We are aware that it has been like this for a while but need to make sure we are continuing to iterate on things, even old things, and bring them in line with expectations. That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well. This is the same reason why we also removed the jump data from the API for WH systems some time ago. So, lets continue this discussion here and see where this goes. :) Love you all and no matter how mad you might be at me I do appreciate all your feedback! :D
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Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
33
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:43:00 -
[138] - Quote
Since people are claiming this change is only not liked by the large WH-corps I am going to post here as a solo or very small group wh-hunter. PvP via ragerolling got pretty much shut down by the instant discovery scanner and was the biggest boost to Wh ratting since T2 siege. For many pvpers that was a big push towards leaving J-space. Taking the jumps/h from the API was actually a nice boost for PvP, since farmers couldn-¦t check anymore via dotlan if they had connecting WHs.
If you now take away the kills from the API you make solohunting (well, almost all hunting) practically impossible. Right now 30 seconds on google will give anyone a possibility for timezones when someone might be active in a system. If it is a good timeframe for my playtime I can use it, otherwise this information does nothing. Without it the only way to find activity would be to sit 24/7 in a system and write down when someone is playing. Yeah, that sounds like fun gameplay. More likely this will be the last nail to the coffin of actual hunting and sneaking up on people in this game. What is way more fun than sitting on a gate for an hour and F1 everything coming through.
Also this change makes it benefitial to not recruit new players. For example a useful corpdescription like "we are a recruiting EU-TZ corp" gives you the same information as a quick look at activity in system in the last 48h. Taking the info away from the API will lead to most corps also removing any other trace of their active timeframe.
While I get the thought behind this change of ingame<>API information it really shouldn-¦t be fixed by taking it away, but by making it available ingame. I-¦m pretty certain noone has a problem with only getting delayed for a few hours data.
Querns wrote:To be clear here, I'm not necessarily arguing against the ability for wormhole dwellers to more efficiently collect intelligence data about their surroundings. I am, however, against this data being collected over the whole of wormhole space, automatically, at extremely low cost. Any changes that aid the ability for hunter/killers in wormhole space to gather information MUST be constrained to only work on the systems that they can physically reach, or otherwise must have some sort of human component that limits their effectiveness in such a matter. Providing perfect information about all of wormhole space is clearly broken and simply incentivizes rolling holes until ham comes out.
That is actually not really a point since I cannot do anything with intel about a system I have no access to. I need it to be in my chain since I cannot portal my ships in there via a magical cyno or a static 100% reliable gate. |
John Caldr
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
23
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:44:00 -
[139] - Quote
Thor66777 wrote: Didn't realize Quantum Explosion represented all of wormhole space pvp'ers.
You did not care to read the threads I presume, this one and first one. There are plenty of alliance representatives saying same things.
Thor66777 wrote:Quote:- you can farm 80billions in few days with just few hours per day and only 2 people. now we can stop it, after change - we would not be able to) You can still do that, but you actually have to work and scout for that NPC information rather than just getting it from a out of game source instantly. This is wormhole space the unknown is what we are about. So adapt or die.
Farming means killing NPCs, in case you dont know it yet. It was about how much isks carebears can make. Safely, after this change.
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Nbonga
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
32
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:45:00 -
[140] - Quote
Great news, that's all |
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Masaru Sora
Eve Ryuken
0
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:46:00 -
[141] - Quote
Well if you remove those information, I think a lot of WH PvP Corps will be pretty pissed, for the right reasons.
I for my part will probably quit the game if you introduce this change. You keep making WH space more and more preferable for carebears. You made promises of POS Changes and Personal Ship Maintenance Arrays as a substitute measure til they arrive and you keep delaying it. There are serious issues you could address and instead you think about such crap?
When will you understand that WH-Space is a completely different game style from Null-Sec and that Null-Sec isn't the Endgame/content for everybody? You keep destroying your sand box game style, a concept which I really liked about Eve. And you keep pushing everything towards Nullsec. I've lived in Nullsec for some time and I prefer WH space. It's different! It's not better, not worse. Just different. So stop ruining it!
If your explanation for the removal lies in the missing ingame content: ADD A DECENT INGAME WH MAP!
Seriously, by this reason you should completely remove the NPC/Kills from ALL SPACE, not just WH space. I don't know anybody who uses your shi.tty ingame map. I know you can avoid systems with recent kills, but that's about it. The ingame map is so chaotic that it is mostly unuseable. Almost everybody I know relies on Dotlan anyways, even more so in Nullsec and Lowsec.
What a shi.tty excuse for yet another nullsec buff. Good thing that WH corps are represented "fairly" in the CSM. First you ruined exploration for me (and several people I know), with Odyssey, now that? Thanks for nothing. Guess I won't be renewing my subscription for a while, just to be safe.
The most important aspects have already been mentioned. It's hard enough already to find content in W-Space. Less make it even less. Great Idea, CCP. |
War Fairy
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
4
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:46:00 -
[142] - Quote
Necharo Rackham wrote:Querns wrote: It is the issue; we are talking about the information exposed via the API. Capital geography information is exposed via the SDE. These are two different things.
Feel free to provide another example of information exposed via the API that is not available in the client.
Well, if we are going for an appeal to mystery and (implicitly) lore, then the SDE has no place in the game either.
Lore never drives change. Only game design drives change. Lore is at best a fun story that is made up about the change.
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War Fairy
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
4
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:48:00 -
[143] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:
Would you continue to preemptively remove it from the API due to the fact that you dislike its presentation in an out-of-game tool, owed solely to the failure on CCP's part to provide an in-game one?
This is incorrect. CCP did not fail to provide an in-game one. They chose not to by design.
To explain a different way. The exposure via API is the mistake. The client not showing it is correct.
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Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
383
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:49:00 -
[144] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Max Kolonko wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:
The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.
Just to be clear, this is only for NPC kills and not ship/pod kills? Well we would remove that but you can just go and get it from zKill or something and be about 96% accurate anyways. Not true. I frequently see ship/pod losses on staticmapper that don't show up on zKillboard. |
John Caldr
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
23
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:50:00 -
[145] - Quote
MS10NVY wrote: Tell me how hard it is to kill PVE caps usually multiboxed? Judging by your own killboards bloody easy aint it?
Strange thing, its easy only accoring to our killboard, and BU one. May be you just miss the "skill" and "hard work to get results" parts? |
Bane Nucleus
Assault and Battery
1528
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:50:00 -
[146] - Quote
I think a good follow up to this would be we don't appear in k-space local if we enter it via a wormhole. The unknown is where it's at No trolling please |
Napoleon Aldent
Rolled Out
8
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:52:00 -
[147] - Quote
Andski wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan. Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored.
Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle? |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4616
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:53:00 -
[148] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote: In the case of this information however, design has SPECIFICALLY said we do NOT want it in the client. We feel it takes away from what wormholes are designed to be, a place of unknowns.
Again the crux of this change is that the information is in no way available in the client. This is not an API that makes getting this information easier or without travel, this just does NOT exist in the client.
I will be bringing up the idea of this information being made available in the client with the rest of the design department, but those I have talked to throughout the day have agreed it should not be. That being said not everyone is in today.
And as I said, if the "place of unknowns" part was really true, I would be OK with removing the API. The issue is that in fact it is very, very known exactly how to kill Sleepers, which is what is creating the current farming problem.
All I am asking for is you to fix both problems at the same time. Make farming harder and then you can make it harder to find farmers. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Cheekything
Dark-Rising Executive Outcomes
166
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:54:00 -
[149] - Quote
Honesty straight up removing it would just be a bad idea since people will complain that it will make farmers hard to catch and will make the general experience stale so unless you can make some sort of deployable that can do it for you it might not be worth the drama of removing it.
Delay is the ideal solution as everyone wins.
However I ask that you would go one step further in your api changes to enrich the player experience (and slightly off topic) to just ask that they delay all Player and NPC based information by 1 day using a snapshot (downtime to downtime)
As you said yourself CCP FoxFour, we can easily get player based kills from zKill etc which I think is again a better idea as it involves players using combined knowledge to achieve, however jumps per hour, npc kills per hour and ship kill per hour stats being so easy to interpret is I believe hindering the scouting experience by making it boring.
It far to easy to look at this information and see where people are "carebearing" actively in the current moment rather than a snapshot of the day. This means players are less likely to try and learn the habits of their targets but look at dotlan or the in game map and go "oh someone is ratting there". Players should be forced to scout and gain recon on their targets, try and get a idea of their habits from experience not "oh this guy rats in this system from 08:00-11:00 because the dotlan graph tells me this" or "I can tell that 10 people are ratting in this system from the amount of NPC kills in the last 3 hours".
This may sound like a personal gripe and it is, when I started playing Eve there was no dotlan or any other tools, people didn't bother to check the map every hour to see what the chagnes where (well no one would do it for every system in game at the same time) and the scouting experience was really fun which is now something that is now lost and maybe should take a comeback with the new ceptor changes. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
501
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:55:00 -
[150] - Quote
Two step wrote: And as I said, if the "place of unknowns" part was really true, I would be OK with removing the API. The issue is that in fact it is very, very known exactly how to kill Sleepers, which is what is creating the current farming problem.
All I am asking for is you to fix both problems at the same time. Make farming harder and then you can make it harder to find farmers.
People doing PvE in wormholes is a problem? I'd like to hear why.
NOTE: The dilution of your ability to make money in a wormhole because others are doing it is a very poor reason. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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