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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3147
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:26:00 -
[301] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pasted on behalf of our Napoleon Aldent from the other thread that got locked.
Nullsec residents are provided with a static database dump containing absolute coordinates for systems in Eve which allows third party applications to calculate the light years between these systems. This is also information that is not readily available inside the client, and has also been used to develop third party applications which are critical to everyday life in null-sec (e.g. GARPA). By being able to calculate jump ranges in advance - outside of the client - cap pilots and their FCs are able to make judgement calls and react faster than they would normally be able to otherwise.
Fundamentally, this is no different than having NPC kills available via the API. It provides an indirect method of promoting content generation via our mappers the way tools like GARPA promote content in null-sec. It gives us intel on a system allowing us to make judgement calls before we fully scout a system. Neither light year calculations nor WH NPC kill activity are available inside the client, yet we have thriving third party apps that rely on both of these to facilitate the daily operations of their users.
If you're going to start holding yourselves to a standard in which third party applications cannot provide more information than what is available inside the client, then I challenge you to hold null-sec to the same standard you are asking wormhole space to be held to. What you are proposing sets our community back a significant amount without providing a rational justification for doing so, and I think you would see the same reaction from null-sec residents if they understood the potential implications of this "equality doctrine" you wish to enforce.
This is incredibly different as the information you are talking about IS available in the client. There are actually several ways to go about getting it, where you can jump to and such, and given enough time and the available resources in the client you guys could build it yourself. This is especially the case since it's static data. At the same time, thats SDE, not API.
On top of that by design we WANT the SDE to provide all static data... it's the static data export. The API is designed to provide dynamic data, and only the dynamic data that the client offers.
These are two different things.
CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @regnerba
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Bohneik Itohn
Periphery Bound
60
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:28:00 -
[302] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pasted on behalf of our Napoleon Aldent from the other thread that got locked.
Nullsec residents are provided with a static database dump containing absolute coordinates for systems in Eve which allows third party applications to calculate the light years between these systems. This is also information that is not readily available inside the client, and has also been used to develop third party applications which are critical to everyday life in null-sec (e.g. GARPA). By being able to calculate jump ranges in advance - outside of the client - cap pilots and their FCs are able to make judgement calls and react faster than they would normally be able to otherwise.
Fundamentally, this is no different than having NPC kills available via the API. It provides an indirect method of promoting content generation via our mappers the way tools like GARPA promote content in null-sec. It gives us intel on a system allowing us to make judgement calls before we fully scout a system. Neither light year calculations nor WH NPC kill activity are available inside the client, yet we have thriving third party apps that rely on both of these to facilitate the daily operations of their users.
If you're going to start holding yourselves to a standard in which third party applications cannot provide more information than what is available inside the client, then I challenge you to hold null-sec to the same standard you are asking wormhole space to be held to. What you are proposing sets our community back a significant amount without providing a rational justification for doing so, and I think you would see the same reaction from null-sec residents if they understood the potential implications of this "equality doctrine" you wish to enforce. This is incredibly different as the information you are talking about IS available in the client. There are actually several ways to go about getting it, where you can jump to and such, and given enough time and the available resources in the client you guys could build it yourself. This is especially the case since it's static data. At the same time, thats SDE, not API. On top of that by design we WANT the SDE to provide all static data... it's the static data export. The API is designed to provide dynamic data, and only the dynamic data that the client offers. These are two different things.
Win. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
511
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:28:00 -
[303] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pasting my post from the other thread 3 - If this change does go through it will encourage even more farmers within the higher end holes who will give nothing back to the community What exactly does "giving back to the community" entail in the context of wormhole space? This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Flash Phoenix
State War Academy Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:31:00 -
[304] - Quote
John Caldr wrote:Flash Phoenix wrote: Yes, that right there, why use a program to avoid playing the game? smooth way to pass by the actual action of PLAYING the game, come on, get in a ship and play EVE, not some third party program.
You did not read his post I guess. API info is delayed. Already. By about 2 hours+ - dotlan/static mapper, and by about an hour+ - direct api. Nobody using it instead of live scout to get real-time information. Its just a very, very important indicator for possible PVP. And we dont mind for it to be delayed more. We just need it to exist, this way or another.
Yes I read the post, and I do not care about the delay at all, real time or 30 days, I could care less. Once again, get in a ship and play the game and quit using a 3rd party program to do your game play for you. |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
983
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:32:00 -
[305] - Quote
Querns wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pasting my post from the other thread 3 - If this change does go through it will encourage even more farmers within the higher end holes who will give nothing back to the community What exactly does "giving back to the community" entail in the context of wormhole space?
I can explain what not giving back to the community is. Set up small POS only, move in 2 carriers and 2 dreads. Live out of the carriers and farm constantly logging off as soon as a new signature spawns from the instant signature generator.
Destroying the POS achieves nothing as the people who use this mechanic can essentially have their risk free PVE Nothing to see here.... Move along
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Napoleon Aldent
Rolled Out
17
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:33:00 -
[306] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pasted on behalf of our Napoleon Aldent from the other thread that got locked.
Nullsec residents are provided with a static database dump containing absolute coordinates for systems in Eve which allows third party applications to calculate the light years between these systems. This is also information that is not readily available inside the client, and has also been used to develop third party applications which are critical to everyday life in null-sec (e.g. GARPA). By being able to calculate jump ranges in advance - outside of the client - cap pilots and their FCs are able to make judgement calls and react faster than they would normally be able to otherwise.
Fundamentally, this is no different than having NPC kills available via the API. It provides an indirect method of promoting content generation via our mappers the way tools like GARPA promote content in null-sec. It gives us intel on a system allowing us to make judgement calls before we fully scout a system. Neither light year calculations nor WH NPC kill activity are available inside the client, yet we have thriving third party apps that rely on both of these to facilitate the daily operations of their users.
If you're going to start holding yourselves to a standard in which third party applications cannot provide more information than what is available inside the client, then I challenge you to hold null-sec to the same standard you are asking wormhole space to be held to. What you are proposing sets our community back a significant amount without providing a rational justification for doing so, and I think you would see the same reaction from null-sec residents if they understood the potential implications of this "equality doctrine" you wish to enforce. This is incredibly different as the information you are talking about IS available in the client. There are actually several ways to go about getting it, where you can jump to and such, and given enough time and the available resources in the client you guys could build it yourself. This is especially the case since it's static data. At the same time, thats SDE, not API. On top of that by design we WANT the SDE to provide all static data... it's the static data export. The API is designed to provide dynamic data, and only the dynamic data that the client offers. These are two different things.
If the SDE is there to provide all static data, why isn't moon mineral distribution part of it? Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.-á -Goonswarm 2014 |
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:40:00 -
[307] - Quote
Your sig marks you as a conspiracy theorist, btw. A bad one. That comment reinforces it |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
511
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:41:00 -
[308] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Querns wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pasting my post from the other thread 3 - If this change does go through it will encourage even more farmers within the higher end holes who will give nothing back to the community What exactly does "giving back to the community" entail in the context of wormhole space? I can explain what not giving back to the community is. Set up small POS only, move in 2 carriers and 2 dreads. Live out of the carriers and farm constantly logging off as soon as a new signature spawns from the instant signature generator. Destroying the POS achieves nothing as the people who use this mechanic can essentially have their risk free PVE I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole? This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
G0hme
Hoover Inc. Pandemic Legion
204
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:47:00 -
[309] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pasting my post from the other thread
Let me try and give you a constructive post with reasons.
1 - This data can be used by someone interested doing log off traps, as it can give us information as to when the residents are active and can plan accordingly{/quote]
First of all, anything that encourage logging off, is hands down, bad gameplay. If you want to know when people are active, put an alt in there, watch what they do an plan accordingly (creates content)
Quote:2 - Farmers (IE people who's sole purpose in WH space is to grind sites and nothing else) already have it too easy with instant sigs showing up which has already impacted our section of space greatly and already given a significant advantage to the defender for no work what so ever. I'd challenge you to say at least this is fair in the repect that everyone can see this information and that the defender can always change up the times they do their activities as to confuse the attacker.
You do realize that CCP have already purposed delayed sig spawn right? And what is really the difference from the Overlay scanner to having a pilot click Scan every 12 sec other than the push of a button? Thats right, nothing. One might say that a passive system is more likely to encourage people to be lazy.
Quote:3 - If this change does go through it will encourage even more farmers within the higher end holes who will give nothing back to the community and continue to farm with even greater security. This is something that we (the broader community of WH space) will not want.
So getting more farmers in Wspace to gank is suddenly a bad thing? Such a thing should be a reason to celebrate. If thats the "broader" inbred circlejerk community you represent, then no wonder Wspace is in such a shite state.
Quote:4 - Seeing a blip of activity on one of the 20+ wormholes we have scanned and have connected to us promotes activity within our corporation. Meaning our members will actively look for the source of that activity which usually results in PvP
And why is it exactly that your corp cant do that with your own eyes? Doesnt that promote activity for your corp aswell? Shook Eelm's hand at Fanfest 2012 Shook CCP Soundwave's hand at Fanfest 2013
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Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
987
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:47:00 -
[310] - Quote
Querns wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Querns wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pasting my post from the other thread 3 - If this change does go through it will encourage even more farmers within the higher end holes who will give nothing back to the community What exactly does "giving back to the community" entail in the context of wormhole space? I can explain what not giving back to the community is. Set up small POS only, move in 2 carriers and 2 dreads. Live out of the carriers and farm constantly logging off as soon as a new signature spawns from the instant signature generator. Destroying the POS achieves nothing as the people who use this mechanic can essentially have their risk free PVE I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole?
No I don't feel entitled to PvP. I do feel entitled to tools that have been available to me for the years I have been within WH space.
I also feel entitled to have our (the people who live in WH space) thoughts and considerations taken seriously, not just mentioned on page six in a back end thread. How it looked was we've decided to change this, change my mind if you can... Nothing to see here.... Move along
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
513
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:48:00 -
[311] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Querns wrote: I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole?
No I don't feel entitled to PvP. I do feel entitled to tools that have been available to me for the years I have been within WH space. Looks like it's time to disabuse yourself of this entitlement. :sun: This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Aiwha
Trans Secunda Nulli Secunda
734
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:48:00 -
[312] - Quote
If removing NPC kill data is bad for finding PvP, I suggest we bring back Jump data for WH's. It makes just as much sense and is equally effective for intel gathering. We're winning the war if it says so on CAOD! -á
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
513
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:50:00 -
[313] - Quote
Aiwha wrote:If removing NPC kill data is bad for finding PvP, I suggest we bring back Jump data for WH's. It makes just as much sense and is equally effective for intel gathering. Not an option -- this information is unavailable in the eve client. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
987
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:51:00 -
[314] - Quote
Querns wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Querns wrote: I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole?
No I don't feel entitled to PvP. I do feel entitled to tools that have been available to me for the years I have been within WH space. Looks like it's time to disabuse yourself of this entitlement. :sun: Please tell me more about your experience within WH space Nothing to see here.... Move along
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7296
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:51:00 -
[315] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote: No I don't feel entitled to PvP. I do feel entitled to tools that have been available to me for the years I have been within WH space.
i too believe that when a broken thing is in the game for any length of time i am entitled to it
please to be returning aoe titans Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
513
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:55:00 -
[316] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Querns wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Querns wrote: I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole?
No I don't feel entitled to PvP. I do feel entitled to tools that have been available to me for the years I have been within WH space. Looks like it's time to disabuse yourself of this entitlement. :sun: Please tell me more about your experience within WH space Ah, yes, argument from authority. Please, continue to insinuate from my alliance name my experiences in Eve: Online. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Dyscordia
Super Elite Friendship Club
17
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:57:00 -
[317] - Quote
Jessica Duranin wrote:"oh noez! Getting easy risk free kills might suddenly require some effort?!?" WTF is wrong with you people? If you want free intel and risk free PvP go back to k-space. You don't belong to w-space! API powered logoff traps are the most care-bearish sh't I've ever come across in w-space.
This pretty much sums it up. I've waded through posts across many forums and I have not seen one actual argument or valid point why this change shouldn't occur, other than "we need it to find fights", which is demonstrably false. It's sad really, I thought you guys "the will of Bob", but apparently you can only do the will of Bob with your precious API data.
Honestly, API data is a WH crutch that facilitates multiple log off alts that do nothing until data pops up on these apps. I would much rather do good old fashioned intel myself - there is simply way more satisfaction you get out of the hunt. The only reason I use 3-4 web tools now is because I would be at a disadvantage not to with my ganking competition.
I would much rather have the API taken away than implement Fozzie's idea of WH sigs that don't show up for 5 minutes on dscan or unless x amount of mass have gone through. I think not having an accurate dscan and missing signatures is way more game breaking than API data not available for WH space.
I approve this change, I'm not even on the fence about it. I pvp in WHs, I am not looking for a safe 'care bear haven', which is also a myth. If anything, this change works both ways: day trippers will not see the 3-4 ships I've killed in my camped wormhole and think it's safe to deploy.
If you really can't find fights without API data, then I will scan down the U210 for you so you can leave and join faction warfare. It's guaranteed fights. |
Zorena
The Red Circle Inc.
3
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:57:00 -
[318] - Quote
rahhhhhhhhhhhhh wrote:We're a pretty small crew of close-knit friends who know each other mostly out of game first, and play EVE together. We also do other things together.
While we use this data like everyone else who's chimed in to find active systems so we can find some PVP content which is already insanely hard to find, we also use it for another purpose.
We have a little doodad widget thingie on our website that has full details of what's going on in our home system using this API endpoint. Sometimes, we do other games besides EVE because we have two EOL holes that aren't worth trying to roll and risk getting stuck (EOL but unknown time of spawning), so we'll go play something else for a few hours. If the widget detects any activity, we login to EVE straight away. Since we have a highsec static, this is actually a very common occurrence.
The net result of this change will simply be that we will login to EVE less. vOv
Just v0v, you use your web browser widget thingie to tell you when to login, I don't particularly understand all the ins and out of wormholes yet but I know from talking with my corp mates is that there is this looming threat of wh-space is becoming blobs just like null sec. And like many pointed out the fault in the api showing information out of game, that it shouldn't have made more opportunities to make pvp happen.. Then again I think there is something wrong with the game when ppl spend 50% playing dota/lol instead of doing something in eve, eve is played like something you do in the background.
anyhow a newcomer pov from wh space. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10688
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:58:00 -
[319] - Quote
Napoleon Aldent wrote:If the SDE is there to provide all static data, why isn't moon mineral distribution part of it?
Because CCP can decide what goes into the SDE and what doesn't. Just like they can decide what dynamic data is displayed by the API.
If you want moon mineral distribution data, scan the moons like everybody else. Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
987
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:00:00 -
[320] - Quote
Querns wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Querns wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Querns wrote: I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole?
No I don't feel entitled to PvP. I do feel entitled to tools that have been available to me for the years I have been within WH space. Looks like it's time to disabuse yourself of this entitlement. :sun: Please tell me more about your experience within WH space Ah, yes, argument from authority. Please, continue to insinuate from my alliance name my experiences in Eve: Online. And yet you don't answer the question... kinda proves my point Nothing to see here.... Move along
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7296
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:01:00 -
[321] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote: And yet you don't answer the question... kinda proves my point
please explain your experience in proper game design Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
513
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:02:00 -
[322] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Querns wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote: Please tell me more about your experience within WH space
Ah, yes, argument from authority. Please, continue to insinuate from my alliance name my experiences in Eve: Online. And yet you don't answer the question... kinda proves my point Not really. Gee, why wouldn't I want to supply my PvP pilot names? It's almost like that breaches opsec. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10688
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:04:00 -
[323] - Quote
it's only good game design when the mechanics are inclined in my favor and against my opponents Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Bohneik Itohn
Periphery Bound
60
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:05:00 -
[324] - Quote
So many people hooked on the free intel crack they can't see past the end of their pipe....
Guys... Some players out there, they enjoy reconnaissance... They think that outsmarting people who think they're in turn outsmarting the scouts is fun...
You likely already have some people like this nearby, in your corporation, who have maybe grown a bit restless because their job isn't as fulfilling as it once was, or may be growing complacent. You yourself may be also becoming restless and/or complacent. You may be looking for something to bring that edge back into Eve, give you the feeling that you are doing something nobody or very few people have the sand to do, to put the twang of excitement back in the air (Pod-Goo)....
Try running your own intel, and see if that doesn't help. |
Aiwha
Trans Secunda Nulli Secunda
734
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:07:00 -
[325] - Quote
Querns wrote:Aiwha wrote:If removing NPC kill data is bad for finding PvP, I suggest we bring back Jump data for WH's. It makes just as much sense and is equally effective for intel gathering. Not an option -- this information is unavailable in the eve client.
Well, I guess that kinda shoots down the NPC kill data argument too.
I KNOW! Lets add forced local to WH space so that pvp'ers can easily tell when other people are in a system! I mean, they're going to scan things down anyway, lets just cut to the chase so we can have content faster! We're winning the war if it says so on CAOD! -á
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Bohneik Itohn
Periphery Bound
62
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:10:00 -
[326] - Quote
Andski wrote:it's only good game design when the mechanics are inclined in my favor and against my opponents
The most honest post in this entire thread.
I'd give you a cookie, or something, but you're goonswarm and my mum told me not to give you any sweets until you slim it up a bit |
Alundil
Trader-Hoes
489
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:12:00 -
[327] - Quote
x-posting from previous thread:
Alundil wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:So lets answer a few questions: Bloemkoolsaus wrote: Our wormhole mapper software relies on this information to determine the current status of the systems we are connected to. I would very much like to keep this information in the API as the information it provides is essential for us.
Your software relying on it is basically why we are doing this. This is information that you guys using software outside the game get a huge advantage over those who do not. CCP by design specifically did not include a map of WH space, and we specifically did not include this information in the client. Earlier we removed jumps for WH systems from the API. Removing this was something that should have been done then. Then by all means place 'your money where your mouth is' and break all api based market and industrial and PI tools under the same logic since that they confer great advantage for those with the ability to use them over those without said ability. It is exactly the same thing.
And then wait for the overwhelming rage from .01 marketeers and industrialists who rely on oog 3rd Party tools in order to succeed. Or the those doing the null market seeding required to live out there and/or stage for battle. All of it is done with oog 3rd Party tools because either the ingame functionality offered by the client is terrible or not even there.
Cache scraping for industry purposes is, at the very least, as damaging to your supposed "ideal" game (where no one uses anything that the client doesn't provide directly) as delayed kill info via api is. Yet in those threads (iirc) it was stated that CCPs stance on tools that offer QOL were acceptable (mainly because some devs know that they are necessary due to nothing other than EVE itself).
It seems as if w-space (the best balanced place in EVE) has been getting shat on steadily since Odyssey and it's not appreciated.
The CSM has struggled to represent wormhole players since its inception and the changes placed upon us are perfect evidence to that fact. You (plural non-specific) do not take our thoughts into consideration and pay lip service to our critiques and suggestions time and again because it's not what "you" (plural non-specific) have already decided you are going to do.
That is how our wh --> csm/cpp interactions appear to proceed. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7296
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:14:00 -
[328] - Quote
your entire garbage post does not distinguish between "data not provided by the client ever" and "data that people prefer to have provided out of game for analysis by a third party tool"
the first is what is being eliminated, the second is what the api is for Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7296
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:16:00 -
[329] - Quote
like seriously an entire post on "other people like to use third party tools how dare you ever alter third party tools without breaking everyones"
yes that's why an api exists, that is also why some data and not all data is exposed
we in nullsec used to have api alerts for tcus being dropped, ccp realized boy was that a mistake and axed it Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Alundil
Trader-Hoes
489
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:20:00 -
[330] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:Andski wrote:it's only good game design when the mechanics are inclined in my favor and against my opponents The most honest post in this entire thread. I'd give you a cookie, or something, but you're goonswarm and my mum told me not to give you any sweets until you slim it up a bit Which is exactly why I, and others, literally laugh out loud when the comment is "...we (upper echelon of GSF leadership) are "in it" for the betterment of the game itself..."
Because everyone knows the mantra "our enjoyment is to ruin others' enjoyment"
Literally
L. O. L.
Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
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