Incidentally, they are thinking about doing just this; to make new wormhole signatures delay their appearance on scanners while they are new. There were some dev posts about it, but I can't be arsed to dig them up.

Yes but let's make life harder for everyone instead of just dumbing it down to oblivious sheeps.

This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way.

That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well.

How many examples of data being available in the API exist and why aren't you fixing all of them at the same time?



You should not remove something from the API without first deciding if it will be available in the client in the future. Decided that first, and then decide how to handle the API. Not before.

Also, you have a strange way of iterating on things if all you are going to do is constantly remove features WH people use all the time.

Ah, yes, this argument again -- all changes must be delayed until every single niggling discrepancy even tangentially related to the proposed change are also handled.

How many times must we see this demonstrably incorrect thinking before it gets relegated to the garbage can where it belongs?

Change is terrible and pretending like the API data is not accessible to everyone because there are people who apparently don't have access to free out of game tools to address the poor design of in game tools is a terrible justification.

I'm not saying it should be delayed until all descrepencies are handled. I'm saying it should be delayed until game design makes their choice.

What I am saying is that since they are now enforcing a rule that wasn't previously that it should be enforced EVENLY and research should be undertaken to ensure that is the case.

I'm not saying it should be delayed until all descrepencies are handled. I'm saying it should be delayed until game design makes their choice.

What I am saying is that since they are now enforcing a rule that wasn't previously that it should be enforced EVENLY and research should be undertaken to ensure that is the case.

I do wonder why it took CCP 5 years to come to the conclusion that this is not intended design but I have to agree with the change. WH space is not nearly mysterious enough and the NPC kill API never made much sense to me.

This change promotes risk in wormhole space by removing the ability for entrenched wormhole dwellers to quickly curate the connections to their wormhole by analyzing historical data. Now, the curation of these connections must be done manually, like the greater majority of wormhole activities, in line with the design goal of the space.

This discussion was originally started here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4556962#post4556962

That was a bit of a mistake on my part, I should have made a new thread for it. Sorry about that.

Before we continue this discussion a few words from me.

We do really care about the health of this game and we rely on you guys to give us feedback on changes we are looking at making. That is why both this forum post and the one linked above were made. To get feedback. You will notice that at no point have I given a specific release date because I really want to make sure we get the required feedback and act accordingly.

The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.

The reason we're proposing this change: This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way. That goes directly against the design of the API and a core rule of it. We are aware that it has been like this for a while but need to make sure we are continuing to iterate on things, even old things, and bring them in line with expectations.

That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well. This is the same reason why we also removed the jump data from the API for WH systems some time ago.

So, lets continue this discussion here and see where this goes. :) Love you all and no matter how mad you might be at me I do appreciate all your feedback! :D

Before posting anything publicly this was discussed with EVE game design. We all agreed it should be removed.

Arguments to delay it pending a game design decision though I think have a lot of validity.

Aside from the information in question here, the absolute co-ordinates for celestials and systems, which allow third party applications to calculate jump ranges of capitals isn't available in client but is available in the API. Guess you'll be taking out that information the same day you remove the NPC kill information right?

The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.

RIP Blood Union !

Considering that the eve game design team was consulted prior to posting publicly about the change, I'd say the delay is unwarranted.

Actually this will just play to the strengths of the entrenched wormhole dwellers, because most of us have our own databases of who lives where and what they like doing.

The game design choice is pretty clear -- "the API should not expose information that is unavailable in the client."

The track record for enforcement of this choice is in no way indicative of whether it SHOULD be enforced.

It doesn't sound like they asked them about a new deployable to put this behavior within the game. Just a "Hey, you guys think this should go too?"

EVE is a game that is all about punishing the lazy and uninformed player, why are you proposing to change this here?

And I'm not saying that's something I inherently disagree with. It just seems oddly and unevenly enforced. I wonder if you guys would feel just as supportive about a change that would remove you ability to look over Chaos changes and thus removed your ability to speculate on the market so much? (yes I understand that its not api data, but this is essentially about players having access to data not available in the the client...)

I'm saying that picking and choosing which things to enforce this rule on seems questionable.

OK great, we have moved threads, I will repeat my post from the other thread then:

The NPC kill information is useful really only for finding people who are just farming in w-space. It is already quite hard to catch and kill these folks. They rarely store anything of value in a POS, so invading and shooting their POS doesn't matter, one of the few ways to kill them is if they have become predictable, and the only real way to find that is with NPC kill data.

The fact that this information is not visible in the client isn't really a good reason either. There is plenty of information that is only visible via the API right now, for example, the contents of POS hangars when you are not at a POS, or even POS fuel levels when you are not present. Are you also proposing to remove the Assets and POS endpoints?

There are many publicly available sites where everyone can see this information, from Dotlan to static mapper, so people that choose to seek out the information can have it. EVE is a game that is all about punishing the lazy and uninformed player, why are you proposing to change this here?


I'll also add that it appears to me that the folks most in favor of this *change* is the folks who I assume are benefiting from it. It is incredibly easy to set up a farming operation in a C5, and even with the current API it is difficult to get caught. The folks that are doing this are the reason Melted Nanoribbons have gone down in value by more than 80% over the last year or so. This hurts everyone in w-space, but especially the folks in lower class holes, who depend on salvage values a lot more than C5/C6 residents who get nearly all of their income from blue books.

The fix for this is a game design issue, not an API one, but until that game design fix is made, please don't make the situation worse for the sake of a core design principle of the API.

Aside from the information in question here, the absolute co-ordinates for celestials and systems, which allow third party applications to calculate jump ranges of capitals isn't available in client but is available in the API. Guess you'll be taking out that information the same day you remove the NPC kill information right?

This is not correct; the API does not expose the absolute coordinates for celestials and systems. This information is provided by the Static Data Export (SDE). The SDE is not necessarily beholden to the same standards as the API, as it only provides static data.

can some1 explain me why goons are talking about wh stuff? no offense guys, but we dont discuss nulls carebearing here

Yeah but it's not part of the ingame client and that's really the issue here, is it not?

Yeah but it's not part of the ingame client and that's really the issue here, is it not?

OK great, we have moved threads, I will repeat my post from the other thread then:

The NPC kill information is useful really only for finding people who are just farming in w-space. It is already quite hard to catch and kill these folks. They rarely store anything of value in a POS, so invading and shooting their POS doesn't matter, one of the few ways to kill them is if they have become predictable, and the only real way to find that is with NPC kill data.

The fact that this information is not visible in the client isn't really a good reason either. There is plenty of information that is only visible via the API right now, for example, the contents of POS hangars when you are not at a POS, or even POS fuel levels when you are not present. Are you also proposing to remove the Assets and POS endpoints?

There are many publicly available sites where everyone can see this information, from Dotlan to static mapper, so people that choose to seek out the information can have it. EVE is a game that is all about punishing the lazy and uninformed player, why are you proposing to change this here?


I'll also add that it appears to me that the folks most in favor of this *change* is the folks who I assume are benefiting from it. It is incredibly easy to set up a farming operation in a C5, and even with the current API it is difficult to get caught. The folks that are doing this are the reason Melted Nanoribbons have gone down in value by more than 80% over the last year or so. This hurts everyone in w-space, but especially the folks in lower class holes, who depend on salvage values a lot more than C5/C6 residents who get nearly all of their income from blue books.

The fix for this is a game design issue, not an API one, but until that game design fix is made, please don't make the situation worse for the sake of a core design principle of the API.

can some1 explain me why goons are talking about wh stuff? no offense guys, but we dont discuss nulls carebearing here

It is the issue; we are talking about the information exposed via the API. Capital geography information is exposed via the SDE. These are two different things.

Feel free to provide another example of information exposed via the API that is not available in the client.

This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.

Well, if we are going for an appeal to mystery and (implicitly) lore, then the SDE has no place in the game either.

Well, if we are going for an appeal to mystery and (implicitly) lore, then the SDE has no place in the game either.

Nullbears dont like being login trapped by BU/QEX so we are nerfing WH space. Have a good day :D

We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well. This is the same reason why we also removed the jump data from the API for WH systems some time ago.

Well, if we are going for an appeal to mystery and (implicitly) lore, then the SDE has no place in the game either.

Why are you WH PvP groups not putting together an Intel tool you share with each other and coordinate wormholes you want to fight each other in instead of crying about CCP is taking easy targets away from you and actually want you to work for your kills and PvP?

However, given that I personally have copies of the SDE going back about as far as I've been playing eve, and that others have copies going back even further, I think the cat's out of the bag on that one. It's not like capital geography changes all that much. Essentially, this is another false equivalency.

Going to start with your points about information in the API that is not in the client.

POS Hangers: This is only because of bad UI and POS code. As far as we are concerned, the contents should be.
POS Fuel: Same as above

The difference between the above and this change is in the above scenario due to whatever development reasons you have to go to the POS to check those things. There is no design reason for it and if given the development time we would like those features in the client. Those features get a low priority from development though because tools exist outside the game to do it.

So the information you talk about is available in the client, you have to go and get it, but given the chance we would fix that. See POCOs and how you can config them and not have to be near them. We are big fans of that.

In the case of this information however, design has SPECIFICALLY said we do NOT want it in the client. We feel it takes away from what wormholes are designed to be, a place of unknowns.

Again the crux of this change is that the information is in no way available in the client. This is not an API that makes getting this information easier or without travel, this just does NOT exist in the client.

I will be bringing up the idea of this information being made available in the client with the rest of the design department, but those I have talked to throughout the day have agreed it should not be. That being said not everyone is in today.

The goalposts, they keep on movin.

This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.

I can't monitor my chain effectively and want to kill farmers please don't take my tools away

Not really. It was stated as part of FoxFour's reasoning in his second or third post - people are just pointing out that applying that reasoning consistently leads to certain consequences.

KSpace NPC Kill data in the client/API should be removed too. Same reason as you shouldn't display the amount of ore mined in a system in the API/client, or the number of (super)capitals being built.

So are you going to remove public CHAOS dump access?

I like how in the 4 pages of this thread, and about 10 pages of the other thread, the only advocates of this change being carried out are generally by people who don't live in wormholes.

From what I read, the majority of people who live in wormhole space, and use this data have appealed for CCP to not put this change in place, and of those people, a very large proportion of the bigger WH entities and a good number of the smaller ones are represented.

You've [CCP] found some thing in your API that you hadn't considered and now want to essentially "hide" your mistake by eliminating it completely. All of the Dev posts so far haven't actually stated any reasons other than "it shouldn't have been there in the first place"., which in my opinion (and apparently in the opinion of a pretty big chunk of the WH community) isn't a very good reason to make a change. At least when other changes are made, we get more reasons than "it wasn't meant to be there in the first place, sorry about that".

The only thing this change does is make it easier to PvE. EVE has always maintained a balance between risk and reward, with WHs being the best ISK in the game, why are you decreasing risk? As it stands, it's too safe in W-Space already, now it's going to be even safer? As it stands, WHs are dead empty. There's a limited number of people who want to live in wormholes. Removing the ability to tell when a wormhole is active will make them even more empty.

God would we ever like to get rid of that.

Are you suggesting arranged fights? If you are, I would say you missed the entire point of being in wormhole space.

Can't wait to be completely safe in my C5

More iskies for my toonies

CCPFoxFour,

Let me just clarify a few things as to why us WH pvp entities have a problem with this.

Most of the time, when we've had our static open for a while, we end up with quite a "chain" (basically a long line of WHs connected to each other) that is somewhat difficult to constantly monitor. While this nerf would make that an issue, that isn't our main problem.

The problem we have is, at present, carebearing in wspace is far too safe/secure. Right now, it's almost impossible to actually catch carebears by rolling into their system. The second you initiate warp to your side of the WH, a new anom pops up on their (slightly overpowered auto dscan tool). This alerts them that it's time to leave the site. All capitals immediately cancel whatever siege or triage they're involved in, and promptly refit to stabs to warp back to the "safety" of their POS.

Unless you happen to roll into someone who just started their siege cycle, it is INCREDIBLY difficult to land tackle. When we go to jump into a WH, we DON'T know if anyone is in there, we DON'T know if the residents are even running sites (should they exist), and we DON'T know where they are even if they do happen to be running sites.

I understand that you have a problem with us having real-time info, or that our internally developed tools are too powerful, and perhaps that does give us a slight advantage. The problem we have is that is our ONLY advantage at present.

The only truly consistent way of being able to kill competent WH bearing groups is through login trap mechanics - aka by taking the time and effort to actually move capitals and subcaps in, log them off, and then patiently wait for said groups to begin running sites. Currently, there is only one way to determine if a WH is worth seeding/active, and that is by checking the HISTORY of NPC kills through the API, aka seeing "oh these guys ran sites 18 hours ago" - this information allows us to make a somewhat informed decision on whether we want to seed the WH or not. Without this, the only way we can possibly seed a WH is by making a complete shot in the dark.

Removing the API npc kill data completely stacks the odds in favor of the WH NPCers - the npc kill data was our best, last, and ONLY advantage over someone PVEing in wspace.

From reading your posts, I assume the problem you have is us being able to passively gather intel on our chain while not having pilots in space doing the work - would you feel that adding in a delayed API would be a better choice?

Perhaps write it in so the API gives us the NPC kill history of a system - but it's delayed by 8-12 hours? This way, we cannot get "live" intel on systems easily, but we can see some trends of NPC kills in order to determine if there is even anyone active in that WH (online POS mean nothing in terms of activity).

Additionally, I would politely suggest/ask that you implement a modified version of the "delayed k162 spawn" suggestion discussed earlier. I feel that Wspace PVEers are given too much free instant intel through absolutely no effort of their own, making them far too safe. I don't want to punish someone willing to do active intel, so I would hope this wouldn't extend to probes, but delaying the built-in passive dscanner from picking up a new sig by at least a minute would go a long way towards leveling the playing field in terms of wspace pvp groups being able to catch PVEers.

One of your stated design goals of wspace is that lack of intel, or a local chat - right now, being able to see new sigs pop up instantly acts in exactly the same manner as local does for most nullsec PVE residents, and I would assume THIS goes against your stated design goals.

Please give some consideration to my thoughts, and try to keep things balanced for both sides, rather than handing all the advantages to one side.

Appreciated,

Servant's Lord, Disavowed

But to hell with you if you even mention that we could arrange fights in between our groups for the sake of having good fights and PvP in WH space if CCP removes the data that enables us to have "arranged fights" in the first place.

The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.

I'm still curious why this wasn't even discussed at the wormhole roundtables that happened at most 5 days ago where significant player feedback could have been sought.

Can you give us any detail on WHY design don't want us to have access to this other than "because". As Mike azariah puts it "what's the design goal". What play are you trying to create? How will you ensure that this doesn't lead to run away farming because nobody fears a logon trap? Do you honestly think that removing the api information will create more gameplay? If so, what gameplay?

I like how in the 4 pages of this thread, and about 10 pages of the other thread, the only advocates of this change being carried out are generally by people who don't live in wormholes.

From what I read, the majority of people who live in wormhole space, and use this data have appealed for CCP to not put this change in place, and of those people, a very large proportion of the bigger WH entities and a good number of the smaller ones are represented.
.

Thank you VERY much! This is a very well put together post that has good points and reasons behind those points. I will bring much of this up when I take the discussion back to the rest of the design team.

Just to be clear, this is only for NPC kills and not ship/pod kills?

I'm not saying it should be delayed until all descrepencies are handled. I'm saying it should be delayed until game design makes their choice.

What I am saying is that since they are now enforcing a rule that wasn't previously that it should be enforced EVENLY and research should be undertaken to ensure that is the case.

Most likely, it was brought to their attention after the roundtables had occurred, perhaps during a pub crawl or other social event. Or, perhaps, it was just reading the forums. Does it matter?

Thats because it benefits the incumbents - those that live in wormholes have an advantage over those that don't

I like how in the 4 pages of this thread, and about 10 pages of the other thread, the only advocates of this change being carried out are generally by people who don't live in wormholes.

From what I read, the majority of people who live in wormhole space, and use this data have appealed for CCP to not put this change in place, and of those people, a very large proportion of the bigger WH entities and a good number of the smaller ones are represented.

You've [CCP] found some thing in your API that you hadn't considered and now want to essentially "hide" your mistake by eliminating it completely. All of the Dev posts so far haven't actually stated any reasons other than "it shouldn't have been there in the first place"., which in my opinion (and apparently in the opinion of a pretty big chunk of the WH community) isn't a very good reason to make a change. At least when other changes are made, we get more reasons than "it wasn't meant to be there in the first place, sorry about that".

My opinion, considering you've asked for it (despite saying it's not going to change your mind), is that you should go back to the drawing board with this one and look at it from some other perspectives. Perhaps even talk to some of the people in game design?

Having access to NPC data allows people who live in WH space to create content. Whether that be through log off traps, through gathering intel (by both attacker and defender), through noticing that a system in the chain is now showing NPC kills and going to scout out what, who and why. There are lots of ways this data is used to create content. The key words being "create" and "content".

Removing this data is literally just removing a players ability to create content in a sandbox game.

Well we would remove that but you can just go and get it from zKill or something and be about 96% accurate anyways.

The only thing this change does is make it easier to PvE. EVE has always maintained a balance between risk and reward, with WHs being the best ISK in the game, why are you decreasing risk? As it stands, it's too safe in W-Space already, now it's going to be even safer? As it stands, WHs are dead empty. There's a limited number of people who want to live in wormholes. Removing the ability to tell when a wormhole is active will make them even more empty.

Arguments to delay it pending a game design decision though I think have a lot of validity.

This is not a player idea, it's a design idea. And unless the design idea has gone from idea to discussed idea to proposed idea in 31 hours, it's information they chose not share with the engaged playerbase.

How does removing NPC kills/hr data from the API somehow preclude two wormhole corporations / alliances from having arranged fights? Wormhole connection maps are curated manually; just wait until the chains connect, then duke it out in an e-honorable fashion as much as you like.

...

The reason we're proposing this change: This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way.
.
.
.

Hey guys,

as a heads up as soon as I can find the time I will be removing WH systems map/kills endpoint. This is data that exists in the API but not the client and is incredibly powerful. As with everything I am open to discussing this, but I will admit that you will have a damn hard time convincing me of not doing it.

Please continue this disscuission here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4558401#post4558401

This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.

If you remove more and more sources of intel pretty soon you're left with blind people who are just scrabbling around in the dark on the off chance that they might bump into someone to shoot.

Over 5 years of Wormholes CPP did nothing new in them .
There were no interesting innovations that would be used only for WH (new scanning, scan ships - is more for beginners)

You , CCP, for several years now talking about new classes WH, new anomalies , new activities , changes POS structures ( this is the only way to live in WH if you do not know )

Now you want to remove the only entertainment for active residents WH. Do you think what happens after that ? I personally stop disburse about 30 accounts.

You do not see the world that you created and do not even know that there are people doing .

If the change is purely because this information is not accessible ingame, then make it accessible ingame. For example, I could image that you hit F10 in a wormhole and that you get these stats, but only if you're in the actual system itself.

All WH PVPers agreed that this feature helps create PVP content. Sometimes forcefully, yes
All who live in WH agreed that removing this feature will make WHs isk-farming paradise that will harm all.
(if you go for numbers - you can farm 80billions in few days with just few hours per day and only 2 people. now we can stop it, after change - we would not be able to)

And the reason to make the change - there is no "ingame" data for NPC kills.

Dont change things that are not broken. Lets just make this data available in client.

There were suggestions for deployable structures, but there is more simple solution.

Make this info available in WHs after clicking at the system sun.

- you can farm 80billions in few days with just few hours per day and only 2 people. now we can stop it, after change - we would not be able to)

Better make this so in K-Space as well... that information is not publicly available in client either you know...

If you go through with it of course...

Better make this so in K-Space as well... that information is not publicly available in client either you know...

If you go through with it of course...

Better make this so in K-Space as well... that information is not publicly available in client either you know...

If you go through with it of course...

One of the biggest things we expect this to impact is log off traps. Most people I have talked to before posting this idea agreed that this data was most valuable for finding people to log off trap. People also agreed it was marginally helpful in finding live fights, but not very helpful in that way and most agreed they could easily find a way to adapt.

This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.

Like local amirite?

Do it, for the love of all that is Bob.

Removing this information will actually cause people who want to find pew to get off their asses and do some regular scouting, which will actually create more confrontation simply because there are people flying about looking for each other.

It's not going to revolutionize wh combat dynamics but it is an improvement.

I don't think incumbents mean what you think it does. It benefits the w-space dweller over the casual day tripper - for sure - but this is true of every other part of space also. If you are a new *resident* of w-space, then both siggy and marbin's eve w-space are free to use (and you can even host the latter yourself).

Literally having no idea how that data is used.

The kill data is meaningless if you are not already out and flying around and looking for things to find and kill. Knowing that kills happened in a system is useless unless you've already mapped a route to it.

So no, this doesn't change the need to scout with regard to jumping into literally dozens of systems looking for things.

not remotely germane to this discussion

not remotely germane to this discussion

Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies.

So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane.

Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies.

So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane.

Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan.

This discussion was originally started here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4556962#post4556962

That was a bit of a mistake on my part, I should have made a new thread for it. Sorry about that.

Before we continue this discussion a few words from me.

We do really care about the health of this game and we rely on you guys to give us feedback on changes we are looking at making. That is why both this forum post and the one linked above were made. To get feedback. You will notice that at no point have I given a specific release date because I really want to make sure we get the required feedback and act accordingly.

The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.

The reason we're proposing this change: This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way. That goes directly against the design of the API and a core rule of it. We are aware that it has been like this for a while but need to make sure we are continuing to iterate on things, even old things, and bring them in line with expectations.

That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well. This is the same reason why we also removed the jump data from the API for WH systems some time ago.

So, lets continue this discussion here and see where this goes. :) Love you all and no matter how mad you might be at me I do appreciate all your feedback! :D

To be clear here, I'm not necessarily arguing against the ability for wormhole dwellers to more efficiently collect intelligence data about their surroundings. I am, however, against this data being collected over the whole of wormhole space, automatically, at extremely low cost. Any changes that aid the ability for hunter/killers in wormhole space to gather information MUST be constrained to only work on the systems that they can physically reach, or otherwise must have some sort of human component that limits their effectiveness in such a matter. Providing perfect information about all of wormhole space is clearly broken and simply incentivizes rolling holes until ham comes out.

Didn't realize Quantum Explosion represented all of wormhole space pvp'ers.

You can still do that, but you actually have to work and scout for that NPC information rather than just getting it from a out of game source instantly. This is wormhole space the unknown is what we are about. So adapt or die.

Well, if we are going for an appeal to mystery and (implicitly) lore, then the SDE has no place in the game either.

Would you continue to preemptively remove it from the API due to the fact that you dislike its presentation in an out-of-game tool, owed solely to the failure on CCP's part to provide an in-game one?

Well we would remove that but you can just go and get it from zKill or something and be about 96% accurate anyways.

Tell me how hard it is to kill PVE caps usually multiboxed? Judging by your own killboards bloody easy aint it?

Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored.

In the case of this information however, design has SPECIFICALLY said we do NOT want it in the client. We feel it takes away from what wormholes are designed to be, a place of unknowns.

Again the crux of this change is that the information is in no way available in the client. This is not an API that makes getting this information easier or without travel, this just does NOT exist in the client.

I will be bringing up the idea of this information being made available in the client with the rest of the design department, but those I have talked to throughout the day have agreed it should not be. That being said not everyone is in today.

And as I said, if the "place of unknowns" part was really true, I would be OK with removing the API. The issue is that in fact it is very, very known exactly how to kill Sleepers, which is what is creating the current farming problem.

All I am asking for is you to fix both problems at the same time. Make farming harder and then you can make it harder to find farmers.

Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle?

whoever gave you this opinion is very accurate. trust them in the future.

Strange thing, its easy only accoring to our killboard, and BU one. May be you just miss the "skill" and "hard work to get results" parts?

Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle?

Strange thing, its easy only accoring to our killboard, and BU one. May be you just miss the "skill" and "hard work to get results" parts?

I admire your stamina tho don't get me wrong it takes dedication to do as much rolling as you do we tend to be a bit more lazy, but saying it takes skill and doing ONLY that... still seems dull to me, but to each his own :)

buy plexes right now, cash all ur assets and buy. if CCP will keep this idea of wspace carebear`s paradise plex will go far above 1b, and nanoribs below 1m.
but funny thing is that carebears will suffer anyway
Btw am i only one around here who think that goonies wh eviction is connected with this 5 years old mistake fixing?

these guys run sites at 22:00ish

nah that's an hour later than i'd like, roll it.

...comrade

We cant find decent targets to engage in our timezone despite an intensive rolling/scouting. WHs are almost dead during this time. So we just explore all the options for PVP to get kills ) And yes, to get results on constant basis it requires a bit of skill )

Maybe we don't want to just rely on npc kill stats and multiple capital alts to get all our w-space kills

Since you've never actually done a logoff trap, let me assure you that it takes a lot of rolling to find an active farming wormhole. You have no idea what you're talking about.

People doing PvE in wormholes is a problem? I'd like to hear why.

NOTE: The dilution of your ability to make money in a wormhole because others are doing it is a very poor reason.

Since you've never actually done a logoff trap, let me assure you that it takes a lot of rolling to find an active farming wormhole. You have no idea what you're talking about.

This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.

I'm not sure that this is going to play out well.. In fact I'm pretty sure it will just lead to a lot more system burns.
Enjoy your shinies.

We do really care about the health of this game and we rely on you guys to give us feedback on changes we are looking at making. That is why both this forum post and the one linked above were made. To get feedback. You will notice that at no point have I given a specific release date because I really want to make sure we get the required feedback and act accordingly.

anyway to call our stuff "easy thing" is not the right attitude m8. Or u wanna say that silly carebears who cant fit properly/refit/farm safier are our fault? anyway this thread is not about wh pvp tactics and pointing on one another, its about making another buff to carebears. Main idea why we against was mentioned before: do not nerf content creators in sandbox game, or may be u wanna read epic article at TMC " how i multiboxed in c6 for 3 days and now i have a titan!"

Yes, but you already know which wormholes are "active farming wormholes" through API data.

Well we would remove that but you can just go and get it from zKill or something and be about 96% accurate anyways.

this is an excellent change and long overdue. congrats ccp for getting something right ))

Btw am i only one around here who think that goonies wh eviction is connected with this 5 years old mistake fixing?

Did you just seriously compare API automation with putting physical characters in systems and doing actual scouting?

I haven't done much of anything, I was born today.

I get where you're coming from, and why you see this as negative. But at worst it's inconvenient. You can still build the same intel with watch list, it just won't be cached for you.

Actually, maybe you could?
Just alter the killmails to say "Unknown Space" instead of J###### for the system.


ofc I have no idea how deep one has to go into the Rabbit Hole of Eve code to make this happen.

No I can't. How do I make a watchlist if I don't know when they log in? What if they log in when I am asleep. I cannot watch a wormhole which could potentially just be empty 24/7, the NPC kills api tells me when they will most likely be around, so i can add them to watch list. I already do my own intel gathering, I add many people to my watchlist, I watch their POS, I GATHER INTEL, but I don't just jump into holes with poses that are active hoping people in these holes are actually active, this is folly. I intel gather when there is actually intel to gather, otherwise it's a waste of my time.

Do you know how many are involved though? No.
Do you know they will run sites at that exact time? No.

The NPC kills are a great way of showing some potential farmers but you still need to do alot of background work and scouting to make a successful log off trap or gank. As the guys from Quantum have said and linked to in previous posts, its very easy to defend against log off traps, farmers just don't bother because:
A. Stupids
B. Farming is ridiculously safe
C. Isk efficiency

You're comparing apples and oranges, is what he's saying. Nullsec game mechanics aren't really relevant to a discussion about wormhole mechanics.

Of course you'll try to derail this thread by talking about something that does not exist in w-space in a thread about a change to w-space mechanics. If you want to talk about local, go start another thread about local, or post in one of the millions of existing threads about local. Local in nullsec has absolute fuckall to do with this discussion.

The irony of wormholers complaining about local being effortless intel when they're demanding that CCP leave another form of effortless intel intact because it actually benefits them is golden

I'm sorry, but perhaps you are not aware that the only fing reason to do PVE in this game is to make money. Certainly my arguments about why people shouldn't be able to do nearly risk-free PVE are going to involve money.

I will try to use little words, since you seem to be not getting it. People doing PVE with little risk is bad. Wormholes are big risk, big rewards. You are supposed to have all your ships and assets at risk to be able to make ISK from C5/6 sites. Farmers don't do this. If their POS gets popped, they don't care, and just wait a week to log in.

The farming doesn't just hurt the big groups, in fact it hurts us far less. 95% or so of our income is from the blue books from Sleepers. The little guys in C1-3 space are the ones hurt the most by this, because now their Sleeper salvage is just about worthless.

Why Goons in this topic and people are not related to the WH, who build their assumptions from the air?

Now we say that WH important statistics as well as on other systems K-Space. If you want to remove the CCP API statistics, then remove it from the whole world, to no one was hurt.

Then pilot of Blood Union and EXPLOSION can safely remove EVE Online client and forget about this game.

Remove it from the API,


Then Add in the following:


Deployable buoy that does exactly what your removing but all ingame, which can be destroyed or repacked/reused by players.

Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.

Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored.

So clearly the API data isn't that important and you won't need it

Okay

Well I guess the PvP WH corpse have to move to WHs with static Nullsecs (or C5/6 with lots of random Nulls) and search for our beloved PvP Content in Nullsec and harass Nullsec dudes then.

Well I guess the PvP WH corpse have to move to WHs with static Nullsecs (or C5/6 with lots of random Nulls) and search for our beloved PvP Content in Nullsec and harass Nullsec dudes then.

Why Goons in this topic and people are not related to the WH, who build their assumptions from the air?

Stuff

They'd just dock up in they pretty stations we can't attack. :P

I'm sorry, but perhaps you are not aware that the only fing reason to do PVE in this game is to make money. Certainly my arguments about why people shouldn't be able to do nearly risk-free PVE are going to involve money.

I will try to use little words, since you seem to be not getting it. People doing PVE with little risk is bad. Wormholes are big risk, big rewards. You are supposed to have all your ships and assets at risk to be able to make ISK from C5/6 sites. Farmers don't do this. If their POS gets popped, they don't care, and just wait a week to log in.

The farming doesn't just hurt the big groups, in fact it hurts us far less. 95% or so of our income is from the blue books from Sleepers. The little guys in C1-3 space are the ones hurt the most by this, because now their Sleeper salvage is just about worthless.