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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1955
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Posted - 2014.05.07 12:46:00 -
[451] - Quote
i have skimmed through the thread. in this post i will try to summarize the arguments from both parties and provide my opinion/commentary on them.
- "this change is good because wormholes should be the great unknown." not buying it. we know how many wormholes there are, what celestial bodies each one of them contains, how their (npc) inhabitants behave, how and when and where the wormholes themselves tend to connect and how to manipulate them to our benefit. the only things we do not know are the arbitrary specifics at any given point. the removal of the npc api call will not change anything in the big picture, as it is part of the mundane, arbitrary specifics that have little to do with the "great unknown".
- "you should not have tools out of game that are not available in the game client." not buying it. there are plenty out of game tools that make playing eve bearable in the first place. for instance, you can quickly check the prices of items beyond the current region only with third party tools. yes, you could put an alt into every region to check prices, but then again, you could also have a scout in EVERY wormhole.
- "without using the npc kill stats to set up login traps, we cannot get proper pvp." not buying it. if having to use an out of game tool to exploit a grey area game mechanic is the only way to produce pvp situations, there is a design flaw in the game, which should be handled at the core. keeping shady workarounds alive instead of fixing the core issue is not the right way to go.
- "farmers will go rampant, nanoribbon prices will drop, THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!" again, not buying it. more farmers will lead to more hunters. if hunting farmers requires so many warm bodies that you can only do it in prime time, then maybe there should be a fix that allows hunting in smaller groups. for example, you could take a look at the mechanics and the practice of rolling statics.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Seven Koskanaiken
The Shadow Plague Fidelas Constans
1225
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Posted - 2014.05.07 12:54:00 -
[452] - Quote
But I thought wormholes were supposed to be nullsec 2.0. |
John Caldr
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
71
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Posted - 2014.05.07 12:57:00 -
[453] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote: Trolling attempt
You know how to use killboard and multiplication tables, isnt it. I'll just ignore your next posts from this moment.
Daniel Plain wrote: if having to use an out of game tool to exploit a grey area game mechanic is the only way to produce pvp situations
We dont mind to use ingame tool with the same data. Login traps are legit, white PVP tactics at EVE ATM
Daniel Plain wrote: if hunting farmers requires so many warm bodies that you can only do it in prime time, then maybe there should be a fix that allows hunting in smaller groups. for example, you could take a look at the mechanics and the practice of rolling statics.
Since there is no such fix, farmers DO go on rampage, isnt it. Seems you miss the messages about us rolling 50-70 statics everyday. |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3183
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:03:00 -
[454] - Quote
Holly crap... finally made it to the end of the thread... you guys made a few posts while I was gone... now to go back and have some more conversations. CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @regnerba
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Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
98
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:04:00 -
[455] - Quote
John Caldr wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote: Trolling attempt
You know how to use killboard and multiplication tables, isnt it. I'll just ignore your next posts from this moment. Well yes, that seems to be your preferred tactic when people start calling you out over the basis of your figures.
John Caldr wrote: We dont mind to use ingame tool with the same data. Login traps are legit, white PVP tactics at EVE ATM
Sure. Except you can't have an ingame tool for it, because the current design prohibits it. If you want to rail against the design, do that. Don't rail against fixing an oversight inthe API.
John Caldr wrote:Since there is no such fix, farmers DO go on rampage, isnt it. Seems you miss the messages about us rolling 50-70 statics everyday. They might be going on a farming rampage, but you still haven't shown any credible numbers (the only ones you have posted come from frankly ridiculous assumptions that you've made based in no way on reality). Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
98
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:06:00 -
[456] - Quote
John Caldr wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote: Trolling attempt
You know how to use killboard and multiplication tables, isnt it. I'll just ignore your next posts from this moment.
I used statistics provided by CCP Diagoras that, while dated, give a much more credible approximation of the ISK values in question than your absurd kb calculations.
All wormholes: ~11T/ month All EVE ISK faucets including that : ~60T/month
You don't really seem to have much going inside your head so perhaps it's really better to ignore stuff like facts.
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Bloemkoolsaus
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
159
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:10:00 -
[457] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:High risk doesn't necessarily mean that it HAS to be easy to get killed on a regular basis. High risk can also be viewed as you have more to lose if you do get killed.
The proposed change doesn't make it easier or harder to get killed. It is currently the only way of identifying and selecting targets. When a target is selected, you need weeks of planning and seeding in assets before you can even think about attacking.
I'm not sure if you've tried to attack wormhole site running fleets. These fleets are usually 2 triage carriers, a couple of dreads and a few subcaps. Hardly an easy target. Because of wormhole mass limits, you can only bring 3 capitals and a select number of subcaps of your own through one wormhole. If the site running fleet has any idea what they're doing, they're a hard nut to crack.
Take the kills information away, and the only way to identify targets, is keep a scout in every wormhole system, be online and watch 24/7. That is practically impossible, no one is going to do that. These guys will not make pvp kills on those toons, and thus will not show up on killboards. It will mean farming targets will become virtually invisible, and thus, safe from any risk. |
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
34
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:16:00 -
[458] - Quote
corbexx wrote:copied from the wormhole section. Rek Seven wrote:It makes scene to remove the API kills but at them same time, this doesn't improve gameplay.
The next problem is the follow on effect, more farming will properly lead to nano's dropping in price. This will then hit the smaller groups in c1 to c4 space hard making there income less (which to me is already to low anyway).
Has there ever been a serious consideration of removing nanoribbons from sleepless guardian salvage? Imho it would take care of several issues at once at literally zero cost (afaik CCP can change drops/salvage very easily without touching any "horrific legacy code".)
- capital escalations get a ~20% income nerf, which would go a long way in balancing risk/reward, especially after the proposed changes (api/sigs)
- C1-C4 income would be buffed significantly
- t3s get back to a reasonable price (I think we can all agree that 300m for a t1/t2 fitted t3 vessel is way cheap)
Do you have any opinion on this? Maybe you could take it up with CCP .. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4625
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:20:00 -
[459] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:John Caldr wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote: Trolling attempt
You know how to use killboard and multiplication tables, isnt it. I'll just ignore your next posts from this moment. I used statistics provided by CCP Diagoras that, while dated, give a much more credible approximation of the ISK values in question than your absurd kb calculations. All wormholes: ~11T/ month All EVE ISK faucets including that : ~60T/month You don't really seem to have much going inside your head so perhaps it's really better to ignore stuff like facts.
Those stats are now several years old. I don't have the historical data back further than a year, but I did look at market data for the most expensive blue books, and those are up 25% just in the last year. In fact, just looking at the sales in Domain of just that one blue book, you are looking at 1.2 Trillion ISK. I would estimate the real number currently at over 30 Trillion per month, and that is with the giant drop in melted nanoribbons. I think those total stats were also pre-santcum nerf, so I'm not sure you have as much going on in your head as you think you do. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
98
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:30:00 -
[460] - Quote
Two step wrote:I would estimate the real number currently at over 30 Trillion per month, and that is with the giant drop in melted nanoribbons. Which NPCs can I sell nanoribbons to? (If the answer is "none", then it's not an ISK faucet.) Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
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Calsys
Monks of War
104
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:32:00 -
[461] - Quote
nice change do it |
Def Monk
404 File Not Found
10
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:33:00 -
[462] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Two step wrote:I would estimate the real number currently at over 30 Trillion per month, and that is with the giant drop in melted nanoribbons. Which NPCs can I sell nanoribbons to? (If the answer is "none", then it's not an ISK faucet.) I think he's attempting to say that, regardless of whether it's a faucet or not, the money changing hands in a (likely) flooded market post change will cause the prices of them to plummet. This then affects lower-end WH profits significantly, and will continue to drive the price of T3's lower, which are already too cheap as is. |
Mahashou
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Nulli Secunda
19
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:43:00 -
[463] - Quote
I feel it make sens to remove NPC kills.
If we use logic, the only entity that would be able to provide this information would be Concord. Now they know when a POD dies since it activates a clone and they know when a ship dies because of insurance.
Since there is no bounty in wormhole I feel that there is no way for Concord to know when an NPC ship was killed. Since there is no gates, they is no way for them to know when someone jumped in a wormhole system.
To be honest if I was still living in a wormhole I would really hate this change since it's giving a lot of intel on your system. Back when I was living in wormhole space I would monitor Dotlan like crazy to know if any jumps occurred in our system. We were a small corps of real life friends that were living there so it was very easy to know if the jumps were potential hostile people. If we ended up seeing jump number that were not even (one jump in, one jump out) we would be extra super careful and be hitting DScan like crazy until we saw that the missing jump occurred.
I think that this was very useful but a the same time it was kind of breaking the purpose of wormhole, where intel should be minimal.
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John Caldr
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
73
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:43:00 -
[464] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote: I used statistics provided by CCP Diagoras that, while dated, give a much more credible approximation of the ISK values in question than your absurd kb calculations.
All wormholes: ~11T/ month All EVE ISK faucets including that : ~60T/month
You don't really seem to have much going inside your head so perhaps it's really better to ignore stuff like facts.
Luckyly, did not hide your posts before your answer.
I think you rely to
http://twostep4csm.blogspot.ru/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html
Thats interesting, but 2 years ago wormholes were far, far, far less populated and less farmed, isnt it Nowadays ppl farm like hell with close-fit high-dps dreads and maradeurs and t3s, not with few ships, rare long-fitted dreads or banch of BS with logistics
So my estimate is close to reality as it is. If we can get same data to the current period it would be priceless. But even these numbers show that WH income was about 20-25% of EVE income and any change in this area should not be treated lightly. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
68
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:49:00 -
[465] - Quote
Blue loot is our equivalent of bounties. If it's too low in the lower wh's then the devs need to increase the drop rate on lower sleeper npc's
Nanoribbons prices being low isn't just a pure supply issue. There's no major Null T3 doctrine that I've heard of running anywhere at the moment which there has been previously. Heavy Missile nerfs and Marauder buffs have meant that Tengu's are out for Mission running and Command Ships coming back has meant less need for the T3 booster boat.
It could also be solved by nerfing escalation into the ground so there isn't as much sleeper loot coming out of higher WH's... (Yes this is a minor troll)
Unless CCP decideds to inform us about exactly what the loot drop rates are currently for higher WH's to confirm that farmers are actually the ones dropping ribbon prices down, it's all speculation.
Luckily none of this matters when it comes to what we're talking about here, removal of NPC kills from API. You've all pretty thoroughly described what a farmer WH looks like, maybe you should drop an alt into a WH that looks like that and figure out when they farm that way instead of going the easy way out via the API? |
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
34
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:55:00 -
[466] - Quote
http://eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=30747#history
Looking at above stats volume actually seems to be less than two years ago |
John Caldr
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
73
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:00:00 -
[467] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote:drop an alt into a WH that looks like that
As I said earlier, there is no other adequate indicators that can show farming activity.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4561985#post4561985
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Savage Chelien
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
2
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:01:00 -
[468] - Quote
So if your argument to remove this feature from wh space then you must be going to remove it from null sec too as the same argument applies here too |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
98
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:03:00 -
[469] - Quote
Def Monk wrote:I think he's attempting to say that, regardless of whether it's a faucet or not, the money changing hands in a (likely) flooded market post change will cause the prices of them to plummet. This then affects lower-end WH profits significantly, and will continue to drive the price of T3's lower, which are already too cheap as is. And I'll not give my opinion on that, because I don't do industry. However, John Caldr suggested that increases in farming WHs will open up an ISK faucet to the tune of somewhere between 10 and 60 trillion ISK per month, and I'm going to call bullshit on that (without him also providing even a remotely credible basis for those figures). Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
529
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:06:00 -
[470] - Quote
Savage Chelien wrote:So if your argument to remove this feature from wh space then you must be going to remove it from null sec too as the same argument applies here too I too do not read the thread or understand even the barest precepts of the change before kneejerk posting about the change.
I guess we'll go over it again.
The change is being done because the information being exposed by the API is not available in the client. NPC kills, jumps, and ship/pod kills are available through the in-game map for nullsec, and as such, is eligible for exposure via the API.
Really, any arguments trying to complicate the matter more than this are a waste of time. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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MS10NVY
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
6
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:11:00 -
[471] - Quote
In the end there's all this talk about the bad carebears, yet all the "PVP" entities farm just as much if not more than some of the carebears... and trust me when i say not all the isk stays in wh space.
If ppl are so upset with farming, ppl would put some effort into better coordinating and literally ganking all the "bears" in wh space. But i bet about 1/3 to 1/2 of them are "our" alts so we wouldnt wanna gank them right ? I mean **** the other dudes income but not mine yeah ?
Lets be honest here we care somewhat but not enough to actually "manipulate" the price of ribbons and put a stop to nonsensical farming for K space supers or rmt or whatever.
As far as i know the only coordinated effort to stop farming is between the two sister corps/alliance syndicate of death and quantum explotion. The rest casually gank things if it's within their actual reach.
However ****** it may be that it makes it among other changes safer for PVErs, it's always the trend in MMOs to make it "better" for the majority of players. This specific change makes it more effort to gank ppl, those who really want to gank ppl will spend that extra effort in doing so because it's what they like and what they do. Those who have been lazy so far will continue to do so.
There's been a lot of talk about the blue donut of wh space in the past. Funny how the isk flows straight behind it and that isn't a problem, cuz they're on "our" team.
You wont more effect? You want to hold the price of nanos higher while the farmers farm less? Maybe coordinate better with other groups i'm sure 100 will achieve better results than 10 over time doing roughly the same thing even if not as proficient. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10704
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:15:00 -
[472] - Quote
HTC NecoSino wrote:A: Goons get burned out of WH. A couple weeks later - fanfest. A couple days later - this change.
If the guys who evicted hole squad needed to use NPC kill data to find them they're pretty terrible at the metagame Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10704
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:16:00 -
[473] - Quote
Savage Chelien wrote:So if your argument to remove this feature from wh space then you must be going to remove it from null sec too as the same argument applies here too
Which argument? Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
529
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:18:00 -
[474] - Quote
Andski wrote:HTC NecoSino wrote:A: Goons get burned out of WH. A couple weeks later - fanfest. A couple days later - this change. If the guys who evicted hole squad needed to use NPC kill data to find them they're pretty terrible at the metagame The e-hounourable wormhole dwellers would NEVER deign to use underhanded tactics such as spies. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
68
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:18:00 -
[475] - Quote
Others have said that farmer systems looks a particular way. Maybe you're missing something? Either way you're getting free intel for no effort. That's not the EvE way. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10704
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:25:00 -
[476] - Quote
corbexx wrote:The next problem is the follow on effect, more farming will properly lead to nano's dropping in price. This will then hit the smaller groups in c1 to c4 space hard making there income less (which to me is already to low anyway).
Let me tell you how convinced I am of your totally unfeigned altruism towards the unfortunate low-level j-space dwellers Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Bohneik Itohn
Periphery Bound
80
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:27:00 -
[477] - Quote
I'm just going to throw a synopsis out of what we've learned from this thread and call it a day. I'm tired of this topic.
C5/C6 WHers are having problems using WH mechanics for specific playstyles, and are using information that was not intended to be available to players, be they PvPers or carebears, to facilitate that playstyle. That doesn't mean that their capital PvP-heavy playstyle is wrong for WH's, just that the mechanics need adjusting and they need to learn how to use the mechanics to facilitate that playstyle instead of a source of information that shouldn't have existed in the first place. People are also using WH mechanics to live almost completely threat-free from many PvP tactics (which also needs to be addressed as a separate issue and does not excuse the existence of the NPC kill data) aside from log off lurking which the PvPers have found to be their most reliable tactic for getting PvE capital kills. The fix to both of these issues is not going to be discovered in a day, but I can tell you this...
The sooner the NPC kill information is removed from the API, the sooner WH mechanics will be fixed.
Where does this leap of logic come from? Right now all of the information CCP has on WH's is basically corrupt, because it has all been influenced by something outside the system the use of which CCP can't monitor. If CCP can't monitor how that data is being used they can't determine what is working in WH space and what isn't. The sooner they start receiving clean data on how WH space is functioning the sooner they can do something to address the problems WH players have with how the mechanics either facilitate or disrupt their playstyle.
The rest of WH space kind of likes this, but it hasn't been explained why, and I'll try to. C5/C6 corps are very tight knit corps. They have to be because the lost sheep gets cut from the flock very fast in C5/C6 WH's. WH's require a fairly sizable support network to accomplish tasks reliably and efficiently. You have to have scouts on the door, you have to have a reasonable number of people to deal with potential threats, hell, even a show of force is a powerful tool in WH space. Just having people online and visible to potential enemies makes a huge difference in how they act.
So in C5's and C6's the people in a corporation with different schedules get weeded out very quickly. They log on and there is nothing for them to do because they can't accomplish anything unless there are a sufficient number of corpmates on. This is true in a lot of other parts of space, but it is much more drastic in the high class WH's.
C4 and down are a different world entirely. A lot of the corps I've seen are multinational/have a broad operating schedule and they work fine because it takes fewer players to accomplish goals in the lower class WH's. Traffic is higher so the content is entirely different. When they roll holes their goal is make some ISK out of a fresh system, and be ready for any PvP opportunities that present themselves while they are doing this. PvP opportunities are much more common because there are more players in the lower class WH's, including quite a few who wander in from K-space (we love you guys, you should drop by more often. Just think of the bubbles that appear on the exits and the face-shooting/podding as a WH handshake.)
You can have 100 active players in a lower class WH corp and only see 10 of them online at any given time, and it works for them. This actually works rather well because the primary source of income for many lower class WH's is not their home system, but the systems they roll into. The NPC kill data stops being 100% accurate once you consider that those kills have a very high chance of not being done by the residents, but by visitors who rolled into the hole during the residents' downtime. Lower class WH residents also tend to spend more time farming not just because the risk to reward ratio is much lower, but because more effort is needed to ensure you don't get caught with your junk hanging out in the cold, lonely harshness of space due to the higher traffic.
There are many types of gameplay out in WH space, but I think the differences between the typical behavior between C5/C6 residents and the rest of WH space need to be pointed out, because there is a large discrepancy created by the accessibility of them that changes almost every other dynamic.
TLDR: C5's and C6's have gameplay issues that need to be addressed, and players have been using NPC kill data as a means to an end. Many of us in the rest of Eve realize you've got problems, but that doesn't mean that the NPC kill data should be accessible. It means you should have been much more vocal about the gameplay issues you are experiencing so that CCP could have addressed them first, and this could have come later.
That's what happens when you lean on a cracked crutch too hard, it eventually breaks. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and move on. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1535
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:29:00 -
[478] - Quote
Which is exactly why this is getting removed. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Appel Sap
0
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:30:00 -
[479] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote:Others have said that farmer systems looks a particular way. Maybe you're missing something? Either way you're getting free intel for no effort. That's not the EvE way.
I must be missing something to. Please, tell us, how to get this intel through different mechanics? |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10704
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 14:31:00 -
[480] - Quote
Appel Sap wrote:I must be missing something to. Please, tell us, how to get this intel through different mechanics?
gameplay Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
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