Sure, but it does remove the need to actually be in the system to observe behavior and make a manual determination of whether the hole should be kept or just rolled. All that needs to be done, today, is to check the system against NPCs killed over time, determine when the time zone of activity is, and log off until then.

Did you just seriously compare API automation with putting physical characters in systems and doing actual scouting?

This is actually pretty laughable. I know you didn't write that with a straight face.

This is actually pretty laughable. I know you didn't write that with a straight face.

Yes, it is. Park a cloaked alt by every site in a W-system and take data. Warp about as needed. Yes, it is a very hard way to get the data from the client, but it is a way.

Thus your statement "This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way" is wrong. There is a way, a very cumbersome way, but there is a way.

"Groups only looking for PvE" should stay in hisec and avoid dangerous wormhole space that contains PVP

Are you suggesting that in order to pull off an equivalent gank to log off trap w-space groups need to spend days or weeks on scouting. Because that is what is being discussed here. Yes, right now the data is cheap and easily attainable. However without the data you would run into the following scenario:

1) Open into system, find a dozen active towers in the system
2) Leave a scout, looking at the system for at LEAST 23 hours
3) If you are lucky the residents will bear within the 23 hours of your arrival, unlucky? Spend another unknown amount of time scouting the system
4) Do the residents run their sleeper sites at the same time on other days? Spend addition unknown amount of hours trying to determine their habits and patterns
5) Finally, we have something resembling the old API data, bring in capital ships and log them off
6) Spend an unknown amount of hours trying to finally trap the locals, who can be spooked by just about anything.

Yeah, this will require an excessive amount of work to pull off. While yes, I agree, it will work well with Lore of the game. W-space is unknown and it takes time to scout and so on, HOWEVER we are not playing this game for lore. We are here to make lore and to do that a certain amount of data is required, if that data goes against design principles and game lore then **** those designs and lore. This is entire thing is about conflict, content,. human beings actually running into other human beings and not just a bunch of red crosses. Yes, w-space should be unknown and dangerous but it should not be isolated.

This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups.

"Groups only looking for PvE" should stay in hisec and avoid dangerous wormhole space that contains PVP

Better make this so in K-Space as well... that information is not publicly available in client either you know...

If you go through with it of course...

We're a pretty small crew of close-knit friends who know each other mostly out of game first, and play EVE together. We also do other things together.

While we use this data like everyone else who's chimed in to find active systems so we can find some PVP content which is already insanely hard to find, we also use it for another purpose.

We have a little doodad widget thingie on our website that has full details of what's going on in our home system using this API endpoint. Sometimes, we do other games besides EVE because we have two EOL holes that aren't worth trying to roll and risk getting stuck (EOL but unknown time of spawning), so we'll go play something else for a few hours. If the widget detects any activity, we login to EVE straight away. Since we have a highsec static, this is actually a very common occurrence.

The net result of this change will simply be that we will login to EVE less. vOv

This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.

We're a pretty small crew of close-knit friends who know each other mostly out of game first, and play EVE together. We also do other things together.

While we use this data like everyone else who's chimed in to find active systems so we can find some PVP content which is already insanely hard to find, we also use it for another purpose.

We have a little doodad widget thingie on our website that has full details of what's going on in our home system using this API endpoint. Sometimes, we do other games besides EVE because we have two EOL holes that aren't worth trying to roll and risk getting stuck (EOL but unknown time of spawning), so we'll go play something else for a few hours. If the widget detects any activity, we login to EVE straight away. Since we have a highsec static, this is actually a very common occurrence.

The net result of this change will simply be that we will login to EVE less. vOv

For someone who spent half the thread educating others on the proper methods of presenting their arguments you yourself are not so educated. This API data is in fact PUBLIC and READILY available. Case in point, here it is on Dotlan:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J114443
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J153802
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J133011

So EVERYONE has access to the data. Now the question is, is it useful for non-hunters? Maybe not, but then again we have ship scanners and other tools IN THE GAME that provide intel gathering. Just because it is not useful to one group of players does not make it useless to others.

Goddamn, you're everywhere.

So what this is essentially about is making wormhole space safer for carebears.

I disagree.

"Groups only looking for PvE" should stay in hisec and avoid dangerous wormhole space that contains PVP

Ships killed per 24 hours is not necessarily indicative of whether or not the chain of wormholes contains a ravening band of marauders. (read: not the "marauder" T2 battleship.) By the admission of several posters in the thread, most of wormhole PvP happens due to rolling holes and attacking in the home systems of the PvE groups, not by inciting fights in the home system of the marauders. You can't use the API to divine where these home systems are due to this, and a PvE group is highly disincentivized from rolling their own holes to look for the marauders.

The advantage remains with the marauders, exclusively.

So you are saying this will make WH's more risky for you?

We're a pretty small crew of close-knit friends who know each other mostly out of game first, and play EVE together. We also do other things together.

While we use this data like everyone else who's chimed in to find active systems so we can find some PVP content which is already insanely hard to find, we also use it for another purpose.

We have a little doodad widget thingie on our website that has full details of what's going on in our home system using this API endpoint. Sometimes, we do other games besides EVE because we have two EOL holes that aren't worth trying to roll and risk getting stuck (EOL but unknown time of spawning), so we'll go play something else for a few hours. If the widget detects any activity, we login to EVE straight away. Since we have a highsec static, this is actually a very common occurrence.

The net result of this change will simply be that we will login to EVE less. vOv

You see, you cant have cake and eat it too.

Not sure what you mean by that, my organization PVE's about... once a month if that, generally we just don't, we are purely a PVP outfit. We simply don't want to get a HIC or hole rolling BS stuck on an EOL hole we know nothing about, so instead we go play something else until it pops and then we go roaming. Its a matter of time, we're all limited in our game play time, get about 3-4 hours a couple times a week, so we maximize our time, and do not specifically focus on EVE. We prefer EVE, but if there's a chance one of the 4 of us will get stuck in an EOL hole while trying to roll it, the night is shot waiting for them to get back, so we don't bother. Its not about risk, its about limited time.

Ah, yes, we've managed to swing it around from a "my personal isk faucet is being threatened" argument to yet ANOTHER variation on the "fix every related niggling, tangential, real or perceived flaw with the game before moving forward with the part of the change which I personally dislike" argument.

Did they give out a handbook on suggested eve-o arguments that got lost on its way to my mailbox or something? This is starting to get old.

The whole risk/reward thing related to PvP activity is pretty funny at its core, really. There's this giant tower of assumptions that gets erected every time someone invokes this particular argument, primarily revolving around the concept that both parties are perfect, rational actors, and that every single PvP scenario plays out exactly the same because of this. You see it in a lot of places; certainly when talking about nullsec, but apparently in wormhole space as well. What doesn't get said is that in the overwhelming majority of actual PvP actions, neither party is perfect or rational. I'm guilty of it several times; I've lost lots of ships, including capitals, due to making stupid mistakes. I've also lost a lot of opportunities to kill a ship due to my own incompetence.

The point here is that PvP can't be boiled down to a simple set of vignettes. Sure, changes in gameplay can incentivize or disincentivize certain patterns, but you can't just make a blanket statement about risk and reward when PvP is involved like this. There's not enough room to account for the killer instinct or the shrewdness of the actors involved when you're making up little vignettes like this.

You are clueless, those sites can be despawned not just by residents but also by passers by. In fact many w-space groups leave cloacked scouts to despawn each others sites when those groups are feuding.

Agreed. We should remove local as well.