Given the nature of the beast I'm not sure that you can factually make this claim. I'm not per se saying you are wrong, just that I don't believe their is enough evidence to make that claim. I see plenty of bait blinky yellows around minnie systems that have lots of traffic in it. All crimewatch has done is condition people not to be stupid enough to shoot those blinky players given the way the mechanics of assistance are so foolishly laid out.

Someone asked why I think the Bowhead could stand a shade more EHP

Freighter?

BLEH! Not interested AT ALL in this big lug...

Give us T3 modular battleships to deal with incursions. I don't want to carry ships in a ship, just subsystems.

Vindi / Basi T3 equivalent, then I might be interested.

Waste to see this being developed.

Someone asked why I think the Bowhead could stand a shade more EHP

shield/armor/hull

10750/6900/46000 orca

21000 / 11000 / 39500 bowhead

90000/30000/250000 rorqual

14000/40000/110000 obelisk

So I ask, who is the Bowhead closest to and how does its tank/structure compare with theirs? If it is flying as a capital level freighter then it should be tanked accordingly. If it is not then change the rigs and we can discuss it vis a vis the Orca

m

The quirks of crimewatch's implementation are secondary to my point. Don't be obtuse.

If CCP intended hisec to be safe, they would have made it so by now.

you can not effectivly take precautions against a gank.

Someone asked why I think the Bowhead could stand a shade more EHP

shield/armor/hull

10750/6900/46000 orca

21000 / 11000 / 39500 bowhead

90000/30000/250000 rorqual

14000/40000/110000 obelisk

It depends on how you look at it and where you think it fits in the spectrum of ships, I suppose. If it fits capital rigs then I would assume that it will have the structure to hold them and then the hull needs some thickening. If it is a distant cousin of the Orca then I would say the cap rigs are inappropriate.

Some of you have compared it to the Rorqual (poor things really need to be looked to) but it is no where near it in tank.

So I ask, who is the Bowhead closest to and how does its tank/structure compare with theirs? If it is flying as a capital level freighter then it should be tanked accordingly. If it is not then change the rigs and we can discuss it vis a vis the Orca

m

You just killed eve for families/students ect who share a computer and anyone who pvps in low sec plus anyone who accidentaly shoots things in high sec thinking its low sec and people who wish to give up their life of crime. Meanwhile the people who are neg ten all the time anyway are not impacted.

Please take these terrible ideas to another threadout back and shoot them.

Frankly I think it seems more central to your argument than you are making it out to be. But other than that and "kill rights", I still don't think you have any real data to back up your point. I've seen no decrease in hi sec ganking/high sec griefing activity despite all the changes over the past year or two.

This is so misguided a statement that it's not even wrong. You can absolutely take precautions against a gank. Red Frog has a whole portion of their website devoted to them. These precautions may, however, require you to change the way you fit and fly your ships, or involve effort on your part to get friends to assist you.

You're making my point for me and don't even realize it in your rush to argue - follow along closely this time....

CCP did not try to remove hisec criminality, they only nerfed/tweaked/adjusted/whatever'd** it. Had they wanted to remove criminal behavior in hisec, the crimewatch revamp would've been a really opportune time to do it.


** - feel free to insert whatever term you feel is most genuine here - again, it is not relevant to the point unless you use "removed", and then you'd be being disingenuous again.

You're making my point for me and don't even realize it in your rush to argue - follow along closely this time....

CCP did not try to remove hisec criminality, they only nerfed/tweaked/adjusted/whatever'd** it. Had they wanted to remove criminal behavior in hisec, the crimewatch revamp would've been a really opportune time to do it.


** - feel free to insert whatever term you feel is most genuine here - again, it is not relevant to the point unless you use "removed", and then you'd be being disingenuous again.

This does make me wonder if the real design goal of the Bowhead is just to provide more cannon fodder for gankers? Since as it stands now - unless you fly with it in a fleet or dual account play and have some kind of logistics, you're going to have to say bye bye to your Bowhead everytime a group of 20 cheap dessies and their CODE? leader want to gank it in hi-sec.

My question for you would be - why is it so hard to find a like minded group of people all travelling in the same direction to provide support and scouting? People in nullsec do this all the time - they're called fleets. They manage to move freighters full to bursting of minerals and station/i-hub mods in an area where black ops roam like cows on the prarie and they generally manage to get to the end of the trip in one piece.

If only there was a way to bring some of this space magic to highsec.

Oh, yeah, it's not magic. It's called pulling your head out of your ass and working together to acheive a common goal. The incursion community especially already has the infrastructure and pilots to make this kind of fleet through highsec a reality - you can pull together long to make shedloads of ISK, but to be expected to help out when moving day comes and you act like someone just kicked your favorite puppy.

I guarantee you that the Incursion corps that start making the most ISK will be the ones that make this a reality - they will move their entire operation in an organized single fleet and be up and running long before their less willing to adapt competitors.

FFS people. If you want to be antisocial in a social game, that's fine - but failing to use the available tools to solve your problem is not CCP's problem to fix.

This does make me wonder if the real design goal of the Bowhead is just to provide more cannon fodder for gankers? Since as it stands now - unless you fly with it in a fleet or dual account play and have some kind of logistics, you're going to have to say bye bye to your Bowhead everytime a group of 20 cheap dessies and their CODE? leader want to gank it in hi-sec.

Why invariably is the gankers answer to players who want to fly solo a hauler in hi-sec - that no, sorry you shouldn't play solo?

How many times does one have to repeat that 1) there are quite a few players in Eve that play solo and enjoy playing solo 2) that Eve should allow for all types of play in the sandbox (it's a big universe) - not just group play and not just game mechanics that cater to gankers who like to prey upon defenseless easy victims?

ps: By the way I have played Eve both in groups and solo. I like both. Sue me.

35 destroyers if you tank it properly. And if you're flying solo. If you're caught at all with your 10 second warps. If the fc can even get 35 gankers. Who by the way have to all have perfect skills for this calculation.

Counting the wrecks I saw in Uedama, I suspect the number of destroyers needed is actually smaller. But even assuming what you say is the bare minimum - 35 destroyers, which being wildly conservative here - cost 10mil a piece - that's 350mil to take down a 1bill+ freighter that you probably have already scanned and know exactly what's in the cargo hold - and would attack unless you knew the loot would be worth it.

A freighter by the way that is flying solo in hi-sec, that is pretty much defenseless other than CONCORD which you as gankers have well timed, so you know exactly what you need to take the freighter down and loot it.

So for the cost of 350mil - you get at least a 200% profit and probably even more. You also destroy 300% what you spent in hull damage to your victim. So not only do you make a huge profit from your ganking, you also cause a lot more ISK damage to your victim - who like most freighter pilots in hi-sec fly solo - because they assume they are safe with CONCORD - or they assume 35 cheap dessies shouldn't be able to take down a freighter in hi-sec because hi-sec is suppose to be relatively safe (unless someone has wardecc'd you).

Currently I think the RISK vs REWARD for gankers in hi-sec (not low-sec or nul-sec) is imbalanced. Gankers should have to put out more and sacrifice more if they want to gank in hi-sec. If gankers want to take down a 1bil freighter in hi-sec, then they ought to be willing to sacrifice 1bil in ship hulls to do it. After all - that's exactly what their victims are losing and have been losing like no tomorrow in Uedama and elsewhere.

Do you know what a single suicide ganker can kill all by himself with no help at all? Not much. One catalyst versus a freighter - even a crappily tanked one? Yeah, that's never gonna happen - so the actuality of it is that, in a strictly solo environment, the ganker has a significant disadvantage.

The issue is, of course, that a group, even a disorganized one, will always be more effective at a given task in Eve than a solo person.

PvP? Yep, the group wins, unless they're just utterly hopeless, or it's some weird scenario (stealth bomber versus a group of noob ships comes to mind for some reason).
PvE? In general, yes, though the way most PvE payouts are done limits the size of the group, effectively.
Mining? Definitely - any group is better than a solo player in terms of total yield.
Hauling? Sure - a group can provide scouts and webbing support.


You can absolutely play solo - by all means, feel free. But you don't get to be more effective than a group of people unless you also have a group of people.

And with a 100,000 ISK frigate, you could have webbed that freighter into warp before the gankers even got a target lock. You can beat a group of 35 well organized people with 2 slightly organized people and the cost of a cheaply fit frigate.

Is it just me, or is there some kind of prejudice against solo players? What the heck is wrong with wanting to be a solo industrialist in Eve? Or having an alt that is a solo Industrialist? Am I the only one that has an alt that does this? I doubt it very much tbh.

There's nothing wrong with it. But your expectations are out of whack if you reasonably expect your solo toon to be more effective at competing than a group.

1) there are quite a few players in Eve that play solo and enjoy playing solo

If you're arguing that reality should change and everyone should now fly with some partner - well, I doubt that is going to be happening anytime soon. People will simply avoid the Bowhead - at least those who fly in hi-sec for safety, and will go back to single ship transport. Less risk - less susceptibility to gankers.

Someone asked why I think the Bowhead could stand a shade more EHP

shield/armor/hull

10750/6900/46000 orca

21000 / 11000 / 39500 bowhead

90000/30000/250000 rorqual

14000/40000/110000 obelisk

It depends on how you look at it and where you think it fits in the spectrum of ships, I suppose. If it fits capital rigs then I would assume that it will have the structure to hold them and then the hull needs some thickening. If it is a distant cousin of the Orca then I would say the cap rigs are inappropriate.

Some of you have compared it to the Rorqual (poor things really need to be looked to) but it is no where near it in tank.

So I ask, who is the Bowhead closest to and how does its tank/structure compare with theirs? If it is flying as a capital level freighter then it should be tanked accordingly. If it is not then change the rigs and we can discuss it vis a vis the Orca

m

As always, it is up to the player to make choices on how and when something is to be flown. That's the great thing about this game, even flying "solo" you can and will affect other's actions (in this case, to gank something else). The entitlement here from people who want everything delivered to them on a silver platter with no effort or having some expectation that other people cannot affect them in a free-market PvP game is just disgusting.

This thing has midslots and oodles of fitting options, plus plenty of inherent tank. I don't see any problems with it, although I'll bow to the CSM rep here and agree that it could use a bit more tank, but it's pretty solid as-is. Can it MWD align?

Actually it's the gankers here that have been arguing for "entitlement" i.e. their entitlement to use a bunch of cheap dessies to take down a Billion+ freighter and its goods.

So basically what you're saying is that if I fit a 1 billion ISK module to my frigate it should be unkillable without someone bringing 1 billion ISK worth of other ships? That's ridiculous, and why cost should never be a major balancing factor. EVE isn't a pay-to-win game.