People are to overexited, so they keep saying: "OMGOMGOMG HYBRIDS ARE AWSOME!!!!", so CCP is likely to think their job is done, and then in a month or so the hybrid weaponsystem is gonna be the least used again.

Keep it down morons! You are ruining the hybrid buff, it needs more buffing.

The only pissing and moaning that I hear about blasters has been on the forums mostly from carebears.

every pirate or PVPer that I've talked to will never say their blasters suck. sure they'd love another buff but come on. Get within optimal and a blaster will tear you to shreds.

Oh, btw, blasters suck.

Suck as much as your skills to ?

I have every of my Blaster skills maxed and i have been using them for some time now. And even before the Blasters was boosted now i still found them to be awesome in close range.

You can see my skills here if you want to see that i'm not a newb.

Suck as much as your skills to ?

I have every of my Blaster skills maxed and i have been using them for some time now. And even before the Blasters was boosted now i still found them to be awesome in close range.

Suck as much as your skills to ?

I have every of my Blaster skills maxed and i have been using them for some time now. And even before the Blasters was boosted now i still found them to be awesome in close range.

You can see my skills here if you want to see that i'm not a newb.

I was fitting a Falcon the other night and I still get a better fit and more dps/alpha from Arties without any buffs than I get form Rails with a Buff. So no, when a ship with Hybrid buffs is better with projectiles then Hybrids aren't fixed.

Rails now has +10% of very little dps, +5% of very little tracking. Blasters now has +0% of very little range. Gallante slowboats has +5% of very slow speed.

Did it occur to CCP that adding very little percentage of very little is still very little?

If you're going to give +5% of something, make it 5% of AC range/dps, etc.

Start adding up all those LITTLE things up. And it ends up not being so little at all.

Awfully nice of the previous owner to train all those skills for you!

Exactly - implementing several huge buffs at once brought us the ridiculously overpowered projectiles we have now. Better to change things little by little.

I'm not saying Hybrids are fine yet - time will tell - but at least they're not flat out broken anymore.

Exactly - implementing several huge buffs at once brought us the ridiculously overpowered projectiles we have now. Better to change things little by little.

I'm not saying Hybrids are fine yet - time will tell - but at least they're not flat out broken anymore.

Well done on missing the point. The problem is that lasers and ACs are, if not pretty awesome, then certainly more than good enough up close, while offering much greater tactical flexibility than blasters.

Changing blasters won't solve the problem of ACs and lasers being too good in blasters' domain. Pulse and ACs track too well.

Funny Thing is Gallente were FOTM years back but now everyone's got Gallente they will never be AS FOTM and you know thats the only thing the experienced players are pineing for.

Muhahahaahaha.

No, the problem is that something like FOTM does actually exist.
I sometimes wonder about how it-¦s possible to screw balancing up this badly. It-¦s like they have no concept of the whole thing, what they are doing about it and what results they want to achieve. I could do it better without putting in too much effort.

I disagree. Because the attempted balancing goes completely into the wrong direction.
Gallente are not designed for close combat and sniping, in fact their design is from all the races the most incompatible with it, therefore continuing to force them into those roles will only result in failure.
This is why people can-¦t agree wether it-¦s the weapons or the hulls that needs changes and how exactly those changes should look like: they all presume Gallente has to fill these roles, but since they aren-¦t suited for it, there are no satisfactory solutions.

Well - Gallente used to fill these roles just fine years ago -they were just constantly nerfed indirectly whilst other got boosted:

- Changes to speed, webs, scrams and MWDs in QR finally broke them - everyone thought it would hit Minmatar the worst, but all in all, it turned out they were largely unaffected by the changes.
Every Blasterboat had an MWD and a web - kind of sucks to be Gallente when everyone can turn your propmod off way outside your optimal+falloff and your web is nerfed from 90 to 60% at the same time whilst base speed and agility is among the worst in the game.
- Not only were some Gallente ships heavily nerfed with the introduction of dronebandwidth (whatever sicko came up with the idea of 75 mbit/sec bandwidth for the myrm tortures little kitten in his basement), but also medium and heavy drones received multiple nerfs over the years, which again struck Gallente the worst.
- At the same time, Projectiles and tracking enhancers were buffed into oblivion which left autocannons better at being blasters than blasters themselves up close and the bonus of having insane falloff.
- Thanks to on-grid probing, sniping BS fleets died and the only long range system put to practical use are arties, thanks to their sick alpha. So yeah - rails are dead - just as beams.

When asking for better range for blasters, people constantly argued that then, they would be too akin to ACs - well - maybe CCP shouldn't have made ACs the better blasters in the first place.

Large Collidable Object whines that the Gallente prop mod gets turned off outside blasters optimal range...which is true but ignores the fact you still coast into range and webs actually outrange scrams, so by the time your MWD is off you should have a big enough head of steam to get into range and stay there.

Well - Gallente used to fill these roles just fine years ago -they were just constantly nerfed indirectly whilst other got boosted:

- Changes to speed, webs, scrams and MWDs in QR finally broke them - everyone thought it would hit Minmatar the worst, but all in all, it turned out they were largely unaffected by the changes.
Every Blasterboat had an MWD and a web - kind of sucks to be Gallente when everyone can turn your propmod off way outside your optimal+falloff and your web is nerfed from 90 to 60% at the same time whilst base speed and agility is among the worst in the game.
- Not only were some Gallente ships heavily nerfed with the introduction of dronebandwidth (whatever sicko came up with the idea of 75 mbit/sec bandwidth for the myrm tortures little kitten in his basement), but also medium and heavy drones received multiple nerfs over the years, which again struck Gallente the worst.
- At the same time, Projectiles and tracking enhancers were buffed into oblivion which left autocannons better at being blasters than blasters themselves up close and the bonus of having insane falloff.
- Thanks to on-grid probing, sniping BS fleets died and the only long range system put to practical use are arties, thanks to their sick alpha. So yeah - rails are dead - just as beams.

When asking for better range for blasters, people constantly argued that then, they would be too akin to ACs - well - maybe CCP shouldn't have made ACs the better blasters in the first place.

This is a pretty decent post but I feel it lacks relevance to today's Eve, because there's a whole boost that you're quietly ignoring.

-Liang

Actually, I wasn't whining but pointing out reasons in eve's patch history why blasters used to fill the close combat and sniping roles just fine until about three years ago and became completely broken despite the hulls and turrets never having been touched.

I'm not saying Hybrids are fine yet - time will tell - but at least they're not flat out broken anymore.

I wasn't ignoring the boost, my post was referring to the quoted dialogue, so intentionally commenting the pre-boost situation and what made the boost necessary, or:



As for the curent situation, again quoting an earlier post in this thread:

Talos is pretty much my favorite roaming ship now. Blasters are fine, stop whining.

Talos is pretty much my favorite roaming ship now. Blasters are fine, stop whining.

So you're running a 2 LSE Talos with 2 TEs. Looks like you're generally doing pretty well with it. Are you using it straight solo or are you running in a gang? Are you running with logi support?

-Liang

How many people in this thread have flown a blaster ship in a meaningful way since the boost? I'm just trying to get a feel for how much theorycraft there is vs how much actual experience.

-Liang

Both solo and small gang. No scouts or links when going solo, usually links but no logistics support if roaming in a small gang.

It's a really good ship and has pretty much replaced me flying Canes + Drakes.

http://bluerep.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11930563
http://bluerep.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11930446
http://bluerep.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11882158
http://bluerep.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11929492

I really think blasters work very well indeed in their intended role at the moment. Best damage, best tracking, can switch ammo if needed, cap is a non-issue, speed deficiency is not apparent in real combat situations. That said, I didn't feel underpowered before Crucible, I fly Gallente boats in various ways, and love them all. I use rails+sentries in PvP. I even fly the Celestis in a damping role a lot. According to the forums, these are all useless.

Of course close-range boat is a poor counter to kiting, but I've been kited exactly once in my career (Crow killed my Incursus). Of course you commit to a fight in a brawler ship.

Every time I undock in a Thorax or Brutix I know there is a high chance of getting primaried... I hesitate for a split second, but then I remember that 1000 unheated DPS, and I think

**** yeah

The sissies can kite all they want, I'm playing for that **** yeah -feeling.

http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11930677

Sadly, I am loving the Talos for other reasons.

We even jumped into these guys and burned off. Our FC said that one of the drakes would get caught but then we'd own them if they were blaster fit. Sadly, what he predicted came true.

Exemplifies all that is wrong with armor-tanked blaster boats. They even had logi support. Armor buffer tank when you are sitting at a warp-in, on station undock, etc... For everything else either hull tank with ewar in mids, or shield tank to keep up speed.

Otherwise I have been loving the new blasters. Massive dps, get in range a bit quicker, Guns are hitting when they used to miss.

Though I've been losing ENI's like crazy (Exeqeror Navy Issue) they have been a blast to fly. Fast, mobile dps.

[quote=X Gallentius]
[
I'm not sure that comments on armor tanked blaster boats as much as it comments on how paper thin Tier 3 BCs taking sentry fire can be utterly raped when hit by 10 BCs, 2 T3s, and an assortment of bombers. :-/

-Liang

Perhap. Shield tanked Talos can have a much larger tank + same dps, and much more quickly as well. Armor tanking leads to less mobility than Tier 2 BCs, less EHP, etc....

They had no opportunity to catch more than one drake. Once out of tackle range the fight was effectively over.

meh. Been there, done that too many times in blaster hulls.

Of course close-range boat is a poor counter to kiting, but I've been kited exactly once in my career (Crow killed my Incursus). Of course you commit to a fight in a brawler ship.

Blasters do alright in RvB.

They're working fine in small gang low sec piracy too.

-Liang

They're working fine in small gang low sec piracy too.

-Liang

Which ones?

I see a lot of Megathrons for sure when I poke about Low, Large Neut, DPS and Incredible may not scale up but sure is scary when your staring down the barrel of one. Neut Domi as well. But what Blaster fits do you see hanging around?

They're working fine in small gang low sec piracy too.

-Liang

...

Stop making excuses for why you can't PVP with Blasters and just do it. After the requisite time when you learn to actually PVP I think you'll find they perform in their role quite adequately.

-Liang

Diemost with 2 nanos = 2km/s (post "buff," that is). Vega with same 2 nanos = 3km/s. Diemost with 2 range mods and null = almost zero dps at 27-32km point range. Vega with same 2 range mods = 85% dps at point range.

You embarrass yourself.

On a more serious note, you've got to be really out of touch to keep pretending gallante and hybrids work. Undock once in a while.

Diemost with 2 nanos = 2km/s (post "buff," that is). Vega with same 2 nanos = 3km/s. Diemost with 2 range mods and null = almost zero dps at 27-32km point range. Vega with same 2 range mods = 85% dps at point range.

You embarrass yourself.

On a more serious note, you've got to be really out of touch to keep pretending gallante and hybrids work. Undock once in a while.

Why are you commenting a low sec logi pilot?? Im pretty sure he knows pvp...rofl

Heretics don't tend to make use of Logis... and they also don't roam a lot. That means I'm putting in a lot more hours in ships like Harpies and Moas than Basilisks right now. I guess the cool thing about it is that I can fly Harpies in Amamake - there's enough PVP concentrated in the one system that the 15 minute Gate Guns Will **** You timer doesn't put a serious crimp in my sub-BC PVP.

-Liang

so you started to learn basic pvp , nice ^^
have fun with it

Diemost with 2 nanos = 2km/s (post "buff," that is). Vega with same 2 nanos = 3km/s. Diemost with 2 range mods and null = almost zero dps at 27-32km point range. Vega with same 2 range mods = 85% dps at point range.

You embarrass yourself.

On a more serious note, you've got to be really out of touch to keep pretending gallante and hybrids work. Undock once in a while.

lol

hmm i still dont know why i should know who are u... that Mfumae never enlightened me :(

Just somebody who plays the game instead of making stuff up on the forums m8

It'll take a while for people to adapt but I honestly believe we'll be seeing a lot less hurricanes flying around in 2-3 months.

No we won't.

Hurricanes can role with 2x Neuts, Selectable Dmg Types, Great Range and Great Speed. It's 2x DPS Bonus makes the thing an absolutely brutal DPS Pump more so with the new Hail Ammo. The Duel Neuts are absolutely incredible. It also see's use as a fleet ship, with it's 60k EHP 720mm Whelp Fits.

No Gallente Battlecruiser has this kind of Field Control or Utility of use. The Brutix is slow and vulnerable to Nuets and can't Nuet back as well as has no web in the Shield Fit and no Speed in the Armor Fit. The Myrmidon has a tiny bit more DPS if you fit it with Hybrids but has always been a slow close range brawler that does not scale well in active fits. She won't be nipping at the Canes heels yet.

The Hybrid Buff was good but it is not pushing the Powerhouse of the Cane or Drake for that matter off of any field. They both can do things that Blasters can not and what they can do is more in demand.

I think its worth mentioning that both of the BC sized blaster platforms are Tier 1 - and thus we wouldn't realistically expect them to be competitive with the Cane or Drake. Basically: if you're trying to determine whether medium blasters are balanced, you need to be comparing the Brutix to the Cyclone. The question you need to be answering is this: Does the cyclone fulfill the close range DPS role better than the Brutix?

The answer to that question is No.

-Liang

the cyclone wipes the floor with the brutix; its tank is multifold better, and it has better damage projection.

and trust me, you wont be seeing more hybrid boats. i havent seen a single successful "hybrid" gang across all FW militias since Crucible hit.

When I saw in the Crucible patch notes, how they made Gallante boats all slightly faster, I laughed... then cried... then laughed again.

You really do need to get a life you clueless miserable monkey.

the cyclone wipes the floor with the brutix; its tank is multifold better, and it has better damage projection.

and trust me, you wont be seeing more hybrid boats. i havent seen a single successful "hybrid" gang across all FW militias since Crucible hit.

Hurricanes can role with 2x Neuts, Selectable Dmg Types, Great Range and Great Speed. It's 2x DPS Bonus makes the thing an absolutely brutal DPS Pump more so with the new Hail Ammo. The Duel Neuts are absolutely incredible. It also see's use as a fleet ship, with it's 60k EHP 720mm Whelp Fits.

No Gallente Battlecruiser has this kind of Field Control or Utility of use. The Brutix is slow and vulnerable to Nuets and can't Nuet back as well as has no web in the Shield Fit and no Speed in the Armor Fit. The Myrmidon has a tiny bit more DPS if you fit it with Hybrids but has always been a slow close range brawler that does not scale well in active fits. She won't be nipping at the Canes heels yet.

The Hybrid Buff was good but it is not pushing the Powerhouse of the Cane or Drake for that matter off of any field. They both can do things that Blasters can not and what they can do is more in demand.

I am not comparing Tiers because it is not relevant to the state of Current Balance. It is however a major factor causing imbalance. The question is in what form would a Tierless Brutix take that could rattle the Canes Cage take?

Do you think there will ever be a viable Gallente Fleet Warship is another question worth asking? Do you think CCP could find a way to allow any Gallente Ship to be the center of a BC Fleet in the same way the Drake and Cane can? The reason I wonder this is that since Blasters can not role at Scorch Ranges and Artillery has a much more brutal Alpha then Rails. Rails have enough difficulty competing, add the poor Tank to DPS Ratio on on Gal Battlships with that and it makes things worse for any large fleet hopes.

I just took a look at that. So from what I'm seeing, your standard shield brutix with Null will outdamage your average max gank Cyclone out to 16.5km, and resume the damage superiority at 20km where the Cyclone's HAMs stop working. Also, it seems pretty interesting to comment on blasters working in FW blobs. They haven't ever worked in blobs and I don't really expect them to start working in blobs.

-Liang

Too much EFT. With blasters being what it is, brutix does almost no dps at point range, even with null. Cyclone will kite it until it dies. Undock once in a while.

I undock all the time in blaster ships. How about you?

-Liang

Too much EFT. With blasters being what it is, brutix does almost no dps at point range, even with null. Cyclone will kite it until it dies. Undock once in a while.

You are an idiot and I am now unable to read anything else that you post. I'm afraid if I read anything else from you then I will catch the stupids.

On behalf of all Winmatar pilots: Where do you fly?

People are confusing the metagame issue with the Hybrid issue. The only reason blasters feel "left behind" are because of the current metagame existing in game - bring more than the other guys and always have backup ready. And if something goes really wrong, hey, drop a capital.

This is bad for ships which have to fully commit to a fight and have to fight in full tackle range, i.e. Gallente. Couple this with the fact that armor tanking slows you down, makes you less agile, and takes up slots for range enhancing mods (tracking enhancers) and you'll see that Gallente is the race which hasn't aged together with Eve very well.

Honestly, I believe Blasters themselves are fine now. The issue boils down to Armor vs. Shield tanking, with Shield tanking being so vastly superior to armor tanking that it has become the norm in 0.0 solo and small gang PvP. Balance Armor vs Shield, and Gallente should be fully viable again (as long as you realize you'll still be fighting in full tackle range). You can't really change the metagame though - most people are risk averse and will not fight unless vastly outnumbering their opponents or by bringing in Falcons and Logistics.

Former Blue Rep here and will return because RvB PvP is just so much fun. Good to point out that RvB is way different then other forms of PvP.

In RvB you see very little Kiting. It is mostly Brawler fits there and because of that Blasters do exceptionally well. Every fleet has MWD Frigate and or Ceptor Tackle, a lot of it so kiting ships tend to be left behind and Tank / DPS come out more. Ships like Duel Web Canes shine where Shield Canes are rarer. You have to adjust your fits to meet this brawling atmosphere.

Blasters do alright in RvB. But the lack of a good Gallente Battlecruiser to match the Drake and Cane for real fleets and gangs as well as the lack of a Gallente fleet ship in General is an issue. You just don't see any Gallente Ships you can build a coordinated gang out of.

http://bluerep.eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=64815&view=ships_weapons&m=12&y=2011

Even looking at the RvB stats, a place all about Brawlers, Blasters are no where near top dog. Drakacane make a strong showing though of course. The Rifter, Rupture, Thrasher and Cane team take the cake having the highest score in each of there respective classes.

Gallente ships are already the second fastest in the game and are so close to agility compared to minmatar that it's barely noticeable. How much faster do they need to be?

As a previous proponent of the smaller web drones, I have to say that I think its a bad idea now - everyone could use them.... Whatever changes that come need to be mostly ship specific if possible. Too many variables otherwise.

As I suggested in a previous post, the fix needs to include a nerf to projectile weapons, which are horribly unbalanced right now. Combine this with some new web drones and I think you'll end up with a more balanced, and more interesting game.

Then, perhaps the drone bays should be removed from, or reduced on, most of the non-Gallente ships? It really does not make much sense for every race to be equally drone-capable, esp. since not every race is equally missile-capable, too.

The game already has "too many variables", which is why you cannot fix the problem by simply buffing the speed of the Gallente blaster boats. The result of doing so would just make them the FOTM once again.

If a Gallente blaster boat can always catch a Minmatar AC ship, then the Minmatar ship is going to lose... every time. And, you might as well write off most of the slower Caldari ships completely at that point.

The "fix" needs to be much more situational, and something which can be countered. Ship-specific fixes are typically the worse solutions. Making the Diemost into a Vagabond-killer is just not the right way to approach the problem, since you'll just end up with folks arguing to buff up the Vagabond.

As I suggested in a previous post, the fix needs to include a nerf to projectile weapons, which are horribly unbalanced right now. Combine this with some new web drones and I think you'll end up with a more balanced, and more interesting game.

yep ,
Blasters seems fine to some extend (most hybrid ships are still crap), but ac-s are just too good , fitting requirement should be increased a bit, so winmatar cant fit everything onto their superspeed ships to make them more tanky/more everything as a blaster ship. I would also lower close range ammo dmg.

Let's look at the facts.

425mm AC IIs, the largest in the medium AC range
Power 154
CPU 25
Duration 5.625
Optimal 2400
Falloff 9600
Tracking 0.1056
Damage Mod 3.465

Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Power 187
CPU 33
Duration 5.25
Optimal 3600
Falloff 5000
Tracking 0.12
Damage Mod 4.41

Heavy Pulse Laser II
Power 231
CPU 35
Duration 5.25
Optimal 12000
Falloff 4000
Tracking 0.08125
Damage Mod 3.6

The ACs are the easiest to fit, next are the Blasters, and hardest to fit are the Lasers.
Highest Optimal is Amarr, then Gallente, then Minmatar.
Highest Falloff is Minmatar, then Amarr, then Gallente. (Maybe Gallente should have higher falloff then Amarr since Amarr has the highest optimal, this would put Gallente middle ground on both Optimal and Falloff)
Fastest Duration is Amarr tied with Gallente, with Minmatar being a bit slower than both of them.
Gallente has the best damage mod, Amarr has the second best damage mod, Minmatar has the least damage mod.
Gallente has the best tracking, Minmatar has the second best tracking, and Amarr has the least tracking.

For the most part, this all looks fairly well ballanced. This would then lead to the ships needing to be looked at, not a weapon system.

Go over this again. Minmatar has the lowest damage mod, the lowest optimal, lowest cycle duration, second best tracking, and best falloff.

Gallente has the best tracking, the best damage mod, is tied for first for cycling time, second best optimal, worst falloff. ( I think they could do with a bit more falloff, but that's just me. )

gallente... those are called blasters not gallente:P
btw you missed some very needed parts like : cap use , dmg type , ammo types t1 t2 , all of those are ac favoured which greatly moves your balanced comparison into winac, imba op pulse t2 range and poor blasters

Projectile weapons are not unbalanced. Tracking enhancers falloff could be reduced a little and there are a couple Minmatar ships that could have their falloff bonus changed to a tracking bonus or something similar, however, to nerf projectiles would be to relegate Minmatar back to the days where they were considered "Eve on hard mode" because of their massively low dps and inability to apply any dps without getting into web/scram range which everyone knows = death to Minmatar against any other race out there.

They are made to fight in falloff and have the speed to keep them there. As it is now, falloff is a bit out of hand. Not projectile weapons. Flat nerf to a weapon system when people complain about a couple ships is just idiotic. Even more so when half of those ships aren't even Minmatar, but are a pirate race that uses the Minmatar weapon system.

Which then makes it an ammo issue, not a weapon system issue.

Theres no reason in a fleet to fly anything other than a maelstrom the exception being support and infact its at the piont now where its expected you fly a Alpha setup even if you can only fit t1 1400's.

Rails have poor alpha and perform very badly in lag where they cannot leverage there slightly higher dps, latency demands you fit for the highest Alpha you can to be effective.

Something needs to change or the only ships we are going to see in pvp are Minmitar, atm they hold the best title in far to many catagories Canes and Tornado's Being best BC, Scimitars best Logi and Mealstroms best Fleet BS thats not even looking at HAC's, Dictors and Hictors.

I dont want this to seem a rant against Winmatar but rather a plea to ccp to do something new with hybrids to make them desireable again and ensure some variaty in fleet compositions.

I think this is the core issue explained well. Gallente need a 'light armor' skirmish option that gives some buffer, but allows us to keep up speed and/or rep. Bottom line - we need some ship- specific hull changes...

Blaster seem ok now in their envelope. Its just hard to get to the envelope to fight. I am growing a new fetish for medim rails. Ive actually 2 separate rail thorax that have survived 5+undocks and gotten me numerous kills. My blaster boats get kills too, but they never redock after a fught. Such is the life of the scram addict.

They won't be happy till they have the speed of Minmatar, the range of Caldari, and the DPS of... what they have already.

Lots of dislike for med rails but try them on an Astarte and they do ok.

The real buff for Gal has been the speed and agility boost. Since Crucible came out and I noticed a decent chenge in agility I've added an agility implant and Gal ships now behave as ships rather than flying bricks.

Good god, med rails and Astarte...

Good god, med rails and Astarte...

Gallante is still much slower than Winmatar. Does it matter how much slower? When you're slower, you get kited until you die. If you're faster, you stand a chance at catching up before losing the dps race. Balance is a matter of how much faster than Winmatar should Gallante be, not whether it should be faster. When blaster boat catches up fast enough to win the dps race roughly 50% of the time, balance is achieved.

Falloff is indeed the major problem. If you look at the damage vs range plots, an extended falloff range means that the drop in damage outside of optimal is very gradual, allowing projectiles weapons to do nearly full damage at ridiculous ranges. I think that the optimal + 2 x falloff damage/range equation needs tweaking, as well as the various falloff bonuses on modules & ships.

Nerfing falloff = nerfing projectiles. Which you are agreeing is a good thing.

Lots of dislike for med rails but try them on an Astarte and they do ok.

The real buff for Gal has been the speed and agility boost. Since Crucible came out and I noticed a decent chenge in agility I've added an agility implant and Gal ships now behave as ships rather than flying bricks.

Projectile weapons are not unbalanced. Tracking enhancers falloff could be reduced a little and there are a couple Minmatar ships that could have their falloff bonus changed to a tracking bonus or something similar, however, to nerf projectiles would be to relegate Minmatar back to the days where they were considered "Eve on hard mode" because of their massively low dps and inability to apply any dps without getting into web/scram range which everyone knows = death to Minmatar against any other race out there.

They are made to fight in falloff and have the speed to keep them there. As it is now, falloff is a bit out of hand. Not projectile weapons. Flat nerf to a weapon system when people complain about a couple ships is just idiotic. Even more so when half of those ships aren't even Minmatar, but are a pirate race that uses the Minmatar weapon system.

I'm not sure you understood what I really meant.

Shield tanking is so superior to armor tanking because it allows you to fit range, damage and speed mods. Speed gives you the option of picking your fights or getting out of sticky situations easier than Armor tanking would allow you to. That is why Minmatar is good: they don't have to overcommit in a fight, while Gallente (usually) have too. You can work around this fact by shield-tanking Gallente ships like the Deimos or Talos (which works and is really fun), but fighting in full tackle range is a really bad idea in today's Eve.

The problem has nothing to do with the balance between Projectiles, Lasers and Blasters. Rather, it's Eve's risk-averse players who basically made Shield-tanking the only viable option, especially in 0.0.

Stop complaining about Minmatar's core strength. Seriously, I'm sick and tired of reading more whine threads about Projectiles. They're not the issue. Blasters are fine.

instead, focus on how to make Armor tanking viable in today's metagame, because it just doesn't work anymore. And maybe take a hard look at yourself and look at the gang size you're usually running.

How about this: show us how its done. You stage a bunch of Vagabonds in Ossogur and bring them into Amamake. I may not be around but I'm sure one of my corpmates would be glad to service your request in a timely and efficient manner.

-Liang

I haven't found a Diemost in the wild in a long time. Gee, I wonder why...

What penalty should armor plates or rigs have if not mass or speed? Tracking enhancers are a range modifier. They are obviously a low slot module but they do have a mid slot cousin in the form of tracking computers. Would other mid slot module variations for damage ala msf/gyro/ heat sinks have a place in Eve?

What penalty should armor plates or rigs have if not mass or speed? Tracking enhancers are a range modifier. They are obviously a low slot module but they do have a mid slot cousin in the form of tracking computers. Would other mid slot module variations for damage ala msf/gyro/ heat sinks have a place in Eve?

Not sure what they would do with plates. Regardless, it won't save Gallante. Diemost with zero plate and 2 nanos goes to 2km/s. Vaga with same 2 nanos goes to 3km/s. It's a 50%, or 1km/s difference. Frankly, it'll get kited just fine without help of plates to weight it down...

As for mid slot dmg mods, I doubt it would contribute to much. Extra mids are hard to come by, except for some caldari boats, which frankly, suck anyway.

Shield Deimos (3 Magstabs, 2 Tes) outdamages Vaga to point range, where it matters.

Edit: I also have no clue why you're focusing so much on the Vaga - a ship which is designed as a kiter and only good against tacklers and ratters, and which will die against anyone competent otherwise.

What penalty should armor plates or rigs have if not mass or speed? Tracking enhancers are a range modifier. They are obviously a low slot module but they do have a mid slot cousin in the form of tracking computers. Would other mid slot module variations for damage ala msf/gyro/ heat sinks have a place in Eve?

Make it sig radius, like the shield rigs. Or something else, but NOT hull HP.

Mid slot damage mods are fine and all, but blasterboats must have mwd, point, web and/or cap booster. Frankly, there is no room for mid slot damage mods so the point is moot.

The regenarative plating module (the one that increases armor by a %) is a possible solution - if it is buffed a bit. It could be made slightly less effective than the plates, but it wouldnt destroy speed/agility. Kinda like a LSE for armor. I am no capital expert but I understand that module is actually used on some cap ships, so it would need to be limited to not make it op in those situations.

Regardless, I am no fan of shield tanking Gallente ships, but I understand it is viable in some circumstances - if you gimp your tackle. The 'natural' tank needs to be tweaked a bit. As I stated earlier, a 'light armor' mobility option. As Kingwood said - the way armor tanking is now just doesnt mesh with gallente engagement doctrine. It needs to be fixed so there is at least a non-speed destroying option (like a less effective LSE type module) for armor tanking.

Just IMHO.

Regenerative plate work because of percentage based bonus, much like trimarks. I wouldn't mind to see it buffed either.

As for shield tanking Gallante, it's a misnomer. Rather than shield tanked, it's more like untanked.

Confirming that gallente ships don't actually get extra hit points when you fit shield extenders to them :/

Diemost with 2 nanos goes at 2km/s. Vega with same 2 nanos goes at 3km/s. That's a 50% difference, plus less agility and acceleration. The fact that this is "second fastest in game" is precisely why Winmatar wins.

Here's to hoping that the idiots don't turn variety and varying play styles and choices into all the same thing.. not much of a vanilla fan myself. Want my ice cream shop to have a wide degree in choices for me to taste and enjoy.

Also confirming Gallante has the extra mids to pin down targets with webs.

This is not reality.

Abbaddon is pretty much the gold standard for large scale fleet engagements, alpha maels reach a point of diminishing returns once you fleet crests a certain number. Alpha isn't that important unless you are over 850 in system, and 250 pulse lasers will ******* wreck things just as well. Maels are so damned slow that they are relatively easy to out maneuver. Drop a Geddon fleet in the middle of a pack of maels and watch what happens.

Oracle, Naga and Tornado are relatively close depending on application. The guys flying them LOVE their Nagas surprisingly. The Oracle is facefucking DPS from a decent range....easily the best anti-support of the three, and the Tornado....well Tornado is as fast as a Fleet Stabber with a Maelstrom's guns.....whats not to like?

In BC's Drake has 85% more kills than Hurricane this month on eve-kill. Hurricane is a better hack and slash platform, but once you have more than 10 or so to a side the Drake is a better because it can actually survive an alpha or two. This becomes more important when you are stuck on a **** caged gate.

Dictors.....yeah all Sabre all day, this is unsurprising, the fastest ship fits the roll best.

Scimi is only situationally the best shield logi, mainly because the Basi is so bloody slow. The logis all have their uses now, Oneiros is no longer reviled.

Frigate...welp Dram is still the king of frigs, but holy hell the entire Gallente line + Dare Devil are just NASTY now, I mean nasty. I mean really they made my Ares faster....yes please.

T3 Tengu...need I say more

Recons are a closer race between Rapiers and Lachesis....again situational...but you rarely see either turned from fleet.

http://www.executive-outcomes.net/edk/index.php/kill_related/270351/42200 is what happens when Maelstroms meet Abbaddons, besides this threads about hybrids not lasers.

Yeah, one side having more than double, probably near triple the numbers (there seem to be some bugs on that log with many GS & friends Maelstroms appearing on the other side too) didn't have to do anything with the outcome.

Next time try to think before posting, less wasted time both for you and the rest.

Make it sig radius, like the shield rigs. Or something else, but NOT hull HP.

Mid slot damage mods are fine and all, but blasterboats must have mwd, point, web and/or cap booster. Frankly, there is no room for mid slot damage mods so the point is moot.

The regenarative plating module (the one that increases armor by a %) is a possible solution - if it is buffed a bit. It could be made slightly less effective than the plates, but it wouldnt destroy speed/agility. Kinda like a LSE for armor. I am no capital expert but I understand that module is actually used on some cap ships, so it would need to be limited to not make it op in those situations.

Regardless, I am no fan of shield tanking Gallente ships, but I understand it is viable in some circumstances - if you gimp your tackle. The 'natural' tank needs to be tweaked a bit. As I stated earlier, a 'light armor' mobility option. As Kingwood said - the way armor tanking is now just doesnt mesh with gallente engagement doctrine. It needs to be fixed so there is at least a non-speed destroying option (like a less effective LSE type module) for armor tanking.

Just IMHO.

Was 390 vs 310 Abbas, Guardians and Tengus vs Meals, Scimis and Scorps the log doesent show all the enemy who ran for it after seeing there Abbas insta poping to the crazy alpha. Oh i should probably mention that all the Abbadons where fitting 1400mm.

I see more than double Maels there on the log and I can't imagine half the Abaddons left the field without even fire once.

That is besides the point anyways. There are a lot of laser Abaddons out there, and countless fights where they won against Maels. Linking one out of thousands to make a point is beyond stupid. Strange how you don't see it, being that obvious and all.

http://www.executive-outcomes.net/edk/index.php/kill_related/270351/42200 is what happens when Maelstroms meet Abbaddons, besides this threads about hybrids not lasers.

In large fleet battles everyone fits projectiles be they Mealstrom or Abbado

Whats piontless is fitting Rails in a fleet battle.

Whats piontless is fitting Rails.

You're not too bright are you? And can't really decide what your point is. You gave an example of one out of thousands Mael vs Abaddon fight and concluded there's no point fitting rails in a large fleet fight.

Which might actually be true but your line of thought was something like: 2 multiplied by 2 makes 4 therefore the sky is blue. Makes sense.

Not sure if to laugh at you or pity you.

Lol, what a tard. Blob = arty or gtfo. Biomass yourself.

Well, looks like you missed a fairly significant piece of information.. something that EFT and Pyfa can't calculate. What you don't realize is that another factor is "hit quality", and that makes all the difference in the world. When you have combat at optimal ranges (and all other factors not coming into play), the percentage of barely hits, well-placed hits, etc. is a stable percentage, with the 5% being "Wrecking Shots". As you go into falloff, the TOP end of this spectrum degrades, meaning that there is a point in falloff where you cannot get Wrecking shots at all. (See Eve's information on falloff: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Falloff, under the topic, "What does that mean for Turret DPS").

So while it may be technically true that the average, unmodified damage may degrade slowly, when you factor in the loss of higher quality hits, the practical damage applied to the isn't unreasonable.

The problem is that the damage vs. falloff equation is applied to the normalized falloff of a weapon (ie. 0 to 100%), not the absolute falloff, in km. This means that a weapon system which benefits from extended falloff, such as ACs with Tracking Enhancers, will be much more effective out to greater ranges than other weapon systems, given roughly equivalent base damage.

There's your problem right there. Blasters damage and tracking are way better than ACs.

amarr needs balance to,every f****n ship has problems,either cpu either powergrid either you cant fit big guns just smaller ones either tank either capacitor.ccp seriosly has to look over these problems.and i was thinking gallente ships and weapon system had problems,they nothing compared to amarr ships and weapon systems

to be honest, a rack of 425's on a navy mega/ mega / hype, along with 4-5 sentry drones puts out some impressive damage, even with armor setup. if shield setup, the navy mega can project almost 1k DPS past 50km. in other words, i think large rails outclass mega pulses right now.

however, large rails were not the TRUE issue. medium rails and ship bonuses are in dire need of fixing. and i think we've all decided blasters are ok in the niche role.

Yes, rails now has 10% more of very little dps, and 5% more of very little tracking. And arty has its perks, btw, It's blob standard issue for a good reason. Whatever rails do, Laser/AC does better. Poor rail has no place to be.

Tell me, Goose - do you actually PVP? Can you give us a basic rundown of your favorite "Winmatar" ships and their relative strengths and weaknesses relative only to other "Winmatar" ships? What is your favorite "Winmatar" ship and how do you like to fit it specifically? How would you go about a fight that started at 20km? What if it started at 1500 meters? What if it started at 80km?

Come on. Tell us all about your massive PVP experience.

-Liang

Lol, personal attack. I take it that means you can't respond to contents of post quoted?

Personal attack in that?

Hahahahah, are you for real or what?

But hey, you can't even answer Liang the easy peasy questions he was asking, so i'll guess you fail at PVP or don't have a freaking clue on what you are talking about.

Not going to waste my breath answering random questions that has too many answers based on situation and people present. But I will point out that if "it started at 1500 meters," it's a trap and you fail - Something liang has done.

Lol@ personal attack as red herring to defer the issue and derail the thread.

Btw, what color shirt are you wearing?

Not going to waste my breath answering random questions that has too many answers based on situation and people present. But I will point out that if "it started at 1500 meters," it's a trap and you fail - Something liang has done.

Lol@ personal attack as red herring to defer the issue and derail the thread.

Btw, what color shirt are you wearing?

I'm sorry, I wasn't meaning to personally attack you. I was attempting to help you show us all that you know what you're talking about in PVP. Still, can you pick two or three situations and go over how you would solve them? How about the situation where I fell for a trap. How would you have responded in that same situation?

I mean hell - if you really want you can just fraps some of your mad leet PVP skills and simply show us how you PVP in "Winmatar" ships. Don't worry about making it jazzy with music or anything - just PVP as normal and give us tips that we haven't thought of because we're too stupid. :)

-Liang

Tell me, Goose - do you actually PVP? Can you give us a basic rundown of your favorite "Winmatar" ships and their relative strengths and weaknesses relative only to other "Winmatar" ships? What is your favorite "Winmatar" ship and how do you like to fit it specifically? How would you go about a fight that started at 20km? What if it started at 1500 meters? What if it started at 80km?

Come on. Tell us all about your massive PVP experience.

-Liang

Quote a post, but unable to repute it, instead, deferring to a red herring personal attack instead, by suggesting I somehow have no "PVP experience." Ad hominem defined.

Its meant to be a response to you - not to your post. Also - I figure this thread's as good as any of the other ones where you go on at length to tell us all how awesome you are with "Winmatar" ships. Please stop trying to dodge the questions and answer them.

Hell, I even answered what color my shirt was. If I tell you what color my underwear is will you answer the question then?

-Liang

Tell me, Goose - do you actually PVP? Can you give us a basic rundown of your favorite "Winmatar" ships and their relative strengths and weaknesses relative only to other "Winmatar" ships? What is your favorite "Winmatar" ship and how do you like to fit it specifically? How would you go about a fight that started at 20km? What if it started at 1500 meters? What if it started at 80km?

Come on. Tell us all about your massive PVP experience.

-Liang

You don't respond to a person in a thread dedicated to an issue, you respond to the post/issue. You implied that contents of the post was wrong by suggesting I have no pvp experience, which is an ad hominem attack and logical fallacy. It's actually true if reference is limited to this faceless forum troll alt.

As for your barrage of meaningless questions, there's no answer. There are too many variables: what's present on either side, if/how many/what kind of tacklers, ship types, fits, numbers, logi, any wildcards (falcon, rapier, etc). The only thing I can tell you for sure is if you "started at 1500 meters" in a non-failfit Winmatar boat on blasterboats, you're pretty much screwed. But that's your own fault.

So how do you like those rails nowdays?

Btw, what color are you undies?

I directed a post at you.



You didn't answer the question. Come on, put some thought into it and show us - specifically - how you'd handle some situations. I really liked the fraps suggestion too. :)

-Liang

Then specify the situation. I'm not typing out a wall of text covering all possible scenarios.

More importantly, how do you like your newly "buffed" rails? Gotta have some non-thread derailing content.

Lets start with this: I am a total ******* moron that never ever undocks and I need help figuring out how to play this crazy fandangled "Eve Online". Please provide your three favorite ships, a fit for each, and some basic idea how to fly them. Please include tips like specifically what to do when you get tackled by something larger than you and what to do when you're in something much bigger than what's tackled you.

As to rails: I don't use them. Several corp mates say they're overpowered now and I can see where they're coming from. I dunno that I agree, but /shrug. They're probably ok and I'd say most problems are probably at the ship level now.

-Liang

And there it is, ad hominem defined.

OK, obviously you have no idea what ad hominem means. I really think you just saw it on a box of cereal somewhere and decided to throw it around in every post to try to make yourself sound more intelligent.

"An ad hominem is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it."

The post that you are quoting is Liang asking you to pretend that Lian is an idiot noob. Doing so, Liang then asks you to explain some of your favorite ships and their setups. After that, you were asked to explain how to use them in specific situations.

At no point did Liang call you a name or point out any beliefs or characteristics of yours, that might be negative, in an attempt to assassinate your opinion on the matter. All that Liang did was what you asked Liang to do.

However, you are still an idiot.

at least he is trying to learn not like u :P
you will be forever an idiot^^

my fav ship is the tornado cause it has total imba alpha due to ******** overboosted winmatard arties
how to use it just load with short range ammo warp to belt target the closest afk botter mackinaw and press f1
easy dumbproof matar style :P
2nd is mackinaw for high sec mining , after tornado took care of competitors it has a free belt full of ice to make some tasty isk


"Several corp mates say they're overpowered now" what ******** corp you are in lilung...

"Several corp mates say they're overpowered now" what ******** corp you are in lilung...

There's your problem right there. Blasters damage and tracking are way better than ACs.

First off, base blaster damage is marginally superior to ACs, not "way better".

The raw numbers are not a fair indicator, primarily due to the ability of ACs to use variable damage ammo, whereas blasters can only do thermal/kinetic damage. An AC can select specific ammo to shoot through a resist hole, as well as switch from max shield damage ammo to max armor damage ammo, during a fight - which signficantly boosts the AC's effective damage profile.

First off, base blaster damage is marginally superior to ACs, not "way better". The raw numbers are not a fair indicator, primarily due to the ability of ACs to use variable damage ammo, whereas blasters can only do thermal/kinetic damage. An AC can select specific ammo to shoot through a resist hole, as well as switch from max shield damage ammo to max armor damage ammo, during a fight - which signficantly boosts the AC's effective damage profile.

Second, superior tracking is not worth much when blasters are operating at their optimal + 2 x falloff range, and ACs are still within their optimal + falloff range. The damage attenuation due to range overwhelms the tracking speed advantage.

BTW - note that Tracking Enhancers (and Tracking Computers) boost optimal, falloff and tracking speed, but really give the most bang-for-the-buck to weapons which have long falloff ranges. On a TE II, the optimal bonus is only 15%, whereas the falloff bonus is 30%; on a TC II, the optimal bonus is only 7.5%, whereas the falloff bonus is 15%.

Now, keep in mind, too, that the Tracking Enhancer is a low slot module, and the Tracking Computer is a mid slot module. Minmatar ships, as shield tankers, are more likely to use Tracking Enhancers. Gallente ships, as armor tankers, are more likely to use Tracking Computers. This means that the Minmatar AC ship will benefit much more from a TE than a Gallente blaster boat will benefit from a TC.

I've read through this entire thread and what I've come away with is that a couple of people are whining because they probably fly Gallente, are terrible at pvp, and want to blame their choice of weapon systems on why they are so terrible.

... deleted wall of text...

What a dumb***!

Ok lets look at the catalyst and hybrids.

With blasters it is capable of around 600dps with correct skills and is capable to melt and track about any frigate or cruiser as long as you know how to use it.

now for rails on it, most people will just say get lost and not even experiment.
It is easy to set up a "sniper" catalyst, full set of 150mm rails, sensor booster, and another sensor or tracking booster.
drone = hobgoblin, lows? overdrives and nano's for range control, or you can add mag stabs.

This is why I consider them to be unbalanced, and not because I can only use one and not the other. In truth, I'm cross-skilled equally to fly Gallente and Minmatar, and to use T2 hybrids and T2 projectiles. I really have no personal preference whether I get popped in my AC 'Cane or my blaster Brutix (although I do hate missiles and Caldari... please nerf that **** Drake already!).

I just find it hard to believe anything from people who won't post with their mains so that people can see if they are being truthful or not. So, until you do post with your main, I won't take anything you say seriously, or any of your claims seriously. A lot of people feel that way. Alts are a way to hide truths when posting on forums.

Post with your main, be internet brave, it's not like it costs you anything. Except maybe your dignity if you aren't what you say your are. Of course, then i wouldn't expect you to post with your main. Just continue arguing on an alt that nobody can take seriously.

why do you want to nerf poormatar?:O

Oh hai, it's Naomi Knight. ***** of Eve-O. Everyone gets her attention, and it's usually filthy and hard to scrub away!

Yah. that was a useless post for the sake of insulting. Considering who it was aimed towards though, I believe it was completely worth it. She reminds me of... oh what's his name... jojo or something that used to ***** around all the Eve O threads wanting to nerf Gallente.

Edit: I almost forgot. LOL at changing ammo. While the Minmatar player is taking 10 seconds to change ammo, you are continuing to shoot him. Say you are doing 600 dps. That's 6000 damage while he changes ammo. (of course reduce that for whatever things like resists, etc, but it still works out to you jamming them for 10 seconds compared to your 5 second reload time) and even MORE LOL at changing ammo just because you went through shields into armor. ACs go through insane amounts of ammo, most pilots only carry emp and barrage.

I just find it hard to believe anything from people who won't post with their mains so that people can see if they are being truthful or not. So, until you do post with your main, I won't take anything you say seriously, or any of your claims seriously. A lot of people feel that way. Alts are a way to hide truths when posting on forums.

Post with your main, be internet brave, it's not like it costs you anything. Except maybe your dignity if you aren't what you say your are. Of course, then i wouldn't expect you to post with your main. Just continue arguing on an alt that nobody can take seriously.